# 2021 Election



## Money172375

Not sure this is a smart move from the CPC. These are serious times and we have our differences, but not sure I would take this approach.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426242355422765056


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## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> Not sure this is a smart move from the CPC. These are serious times and we have our differences, but not sure I would take this approach.


Yuck, such a half assed ad. I see what they're trying to do, but they should have done a better job.

I also dont' agree with this approach.


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## sags

I mean........at least make a video more professional than grade schoolers could.

Do the Conservatives know about CGI ? No Erin...........those aren't real dinosaurs in Jurassic Park.


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## ian

Anyone's guess. I think that it will be similar to the 2015 and 2019 election. The Party that makes the biggest scew ups during the campaign will loose. The one that does not will win, or at least get to a minority Government.

I am tired of voting against a Party instead of voting for one. This time around is a really hard decision for me. Not happy with the Liberals, not willing to vote for a divided Conservative Party that does not have it together. Never NDP...especially with their foolish wealth tax. Maybe we have a Rhino Party candidate. I live in a solid blue Alberta riding so my vote never counts for much.

Read a an an article that said 24 seats in the last election we won by a margin of 6 percent or less. Some under 1 percent. These are the ridings where there may be some excitement. Those ridings determined the outcome of the last election. Plus a few where the incumbents are retireing.

Have not seem much from O'Toole and his team to indicate to me that they are capable of launching an effective campaign.

Let's hope they have learned from 2019, that they get their sh#t together, launch an effective campaign and truly give Canadians a choice.

Certainly the likes of Jason Kenney and Pierre Poilievre are secretly hoping for a Liberal minority win so that it opens the field for their own leadership aspirations.

If O'Toole looses he is done like dinner IMHO. He really does need to step up to the plate, stop pandering to social conservatives, and hit a home run.


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## fstamand

Can't wait to see CPC fall in #3 position. O'Toole will crawl back to his wormhole in no time. Excellent! 👏(mr burns voice).


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## Eder

Stupid election...Sock boy should wear the covid cases he will cause.


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## sags

I suspect if the polls indicated a large Conservative or NDP lead........they would have pulled the plug already.

It sucks to have an election called when you are so far behind the leader.

It looks like the Liberals started out with another minority government, but the Conservatives are working hard to give Trudeau a majority.


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## fstamand

... annd cue the wexit crybabies and the "justin stole the election" Trumpeters.


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## Money172375

Anyone ever work at a polling station? Me and my teenagers are thinking about it.


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## MK7GTI

Just like the Liberals, I'm doing my own round of vote buying. At work, I will be buying lunch for anyone who votes Conservative.


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## ian

I would not be forecasting anything yet. Or gloating. The Conservatives could pull a rabbit out of hat. The Liberals could shoot themselves in the foot.

This is Canada. 35 points can get you a minority Government. The Conservatives have a solid base of what, 24 points. They just need to capture the rest.

The polls today may be very different than the election day polls. As both Harper and Scheer teams learned the hard way.


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## sags

That is what keeps elections interesting. There is always a chance of a big upset.


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## james4beach

MK7GTI said:


> At work, I will be buying lunch for anyone who votes Conservative.


If you're in a position of power (like a boss or manager) then this is a really scummy thing to do. You would be pressuring / forcing your employees to agree with your political views, and implicitly punishing those who have beliefs you don't like.

If you're just a "nobody" then no harm, though.


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## Ukrainiandude

Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe says the province is not bringing in a requirement to show proof of vaccination before entering a business or attending a large event.
Scott Livingstone, the CEO of the Saskatchewan Health Authority, said even a business asking for someone’s health card number is not allowed unless it is related to providing health services.

I voted liberals for federal and NDP for provincial elections last time. In the future they won’t get my vote.

I guess I got no choice but to vote conservative this time.


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## gibor365

> I live in a solid blue Alberta riding so my vote never counts for much.


this is the biggest problem with current election system....as i live in solid red Mississuaga and "my vote never counts for much".



> Not happy with the Liberals, not willing to vote for a divided Conservative Party that does not have it together. Never NDP...especially with their foolish wealth tax. Maybe we have a Rhino Party candidate


 and this is another problem with election system for both Fed and ON elections.... There is no party that represents my views.


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## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> this is the biggest problem with current election system....as i live in solid red Mississuaga and "my vote never counts for much".
> 
> and this is another problem with election system for both Fed and ON elections.... There is no party that represents my views.


I think that is becoming an issue for more Canadians each year.
There isn't a single party that is socially liberal, fiscally conservative.
Conservatives are the closest but they have a tons of problems and drawbacks
The problem is that those in power set the rules, and they set barrier of entry into politics at extremely high level.


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## gibor365

“There isn't a single party that is socially liberal, fiscally conservative “ - exactly! Not only me, but looks like many others are looking for such party!


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## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I think that is becoming an issue for more Canadians each year.
> There isn't a single party that is socially liberal, fiscally conservative.
> Conservatives are the closest but they have a tons of problems and drawbacks
> The problem is that those in power set the rules, and they set barrier of entry into politics at extremely high level.


CPC is close if they can keep the socials under control. Harper did this pretty well because he was able to deliver on a lot of other stuff, and convince them that their best opportunities were small initiatives over time.




ian said:


> I am tired of voting against a Party instead of voting for one. This time around is a really hard decision for me.


Honestly this is why I want instant run-off. I'd love to see a real centrist candidate, ie a liberal.
As it is the only people who seem to care about liberal principles at all are the CPC, even then they have Candidates that go too far left and right.


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## MK7GTI

james4beach said:


> If you're in a position of power (like a boss or manager) then this is a really scummy thing to do. You would be pressuring / forcing your employees to agree with your political views, and implicitly punishing those who have beliefs you don't like.
> 
> If you're just a "nobody" then no harm, though.


I'm a working stiff, nothing to worry about hahaha.


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## MrsPartridge

I'm waiting to see what Justin will pull out of his goodie bag. He learned from his dad to come up with freebies at election time and that brings in the votes. To secure his first election Justin put the OAS back to age 65 from 67 and boomers were happy. 
Singh is offering something like "free" dental and pharmacare. That'll pull votes away from Justin.


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## sags

Many of the programs and benefits Canadians take for granted today, were introduced as "election goodies".

Childcare benefits, TFSA, tax deductions etc. The political parties each have their target audience of voters.

Conservatives target the wealthy. Liberals target the middle class. The NDP target the poor.

There is some overlap between them.......but that is the basic setup.


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## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> CPC is close if they can keep the socials under control. Harper did this pretty well because he was able to deliver on a lot of other stuff, and convince them that their best opportunities were small initiatives over time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly this is why I want instant run-off. I'd love to see a real centrist candidate, ie a liberal.
> As it is the only people who seem to care about liberal principles at all are the CPC, even then they have Candidates that go too far left and right.



I think they generally have.
How many actual bills/policies were introduced that affect social aspect by conservatives?
It is all narrative. A trap that they too easily fall into
Politics is sadly a theatre and not an idea-exchange forum.


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## sags

One policy that is likely to NOT be an issue in this election is if climate change is real and man made.

Given what is going on all over the world.......that debate appears to be over.

People now want to know how the politicians plan to address it.


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## damian13ster

What do you mean how? More taxes! We have seen it in 5 years.
Of course it lead us to actually increase emissions over that time, and Trudeau has worse performance on environment than Trump does, but the answer is always more taxes


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## sags

Canadians already know how the Liberals are addressing climate change.

What they will want to know is how the Conservatives would address it, since O'Toole has stated he would eliminate the carbon tax.

Conservatives will also have to address end of life euthanasia, since their offical policy is to oppose it.

It will be interesting to see how O'Toole handles the difference between his own personal beliefs and those of the party.


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## damian13ster

Well, you stated yourself how Conservatives would address it.
Do exactly same thing as Liberals except don't tax people.
Worse result than Donald Trump in climate is a pretty low bar set by Liberals


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## diharv

The carbon tax. What an opportunistic scam that generates revenue but does nothing to address its namesake. He doesn't have to increase the GST to increase tax revenue because that would be seen as a blatant tax increase whereas the wool is pulled over the eyes of those that think that the carbon tax is addressing climate change.


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## Spudd

Money172375 said:


> Anyone ever work at a polling station? Me and my teenagers are thinking about it.


I have done it a couple of times. It's reasonably fun, though it's a long day. Start at 8am, finish after 9pm. Bring your lunch because you don't have time to go out for lunch. Pay is around $200-250, I forget exactly. Oh, and you have to go to a training session beforehand, which takes an hour or two.


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## Spudd

diharv said:


> The carbon tax. What an opportunistic scam that generates revenue but does nothing to address its namesake. He doesn't have to increase the GST to increase tax revenue because that would be seen as a blatant tax increase whereas the wool is pulled over the eyes of those that think that the carbon tax is addressing climate change.


Explain? Why is it a scam?


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## ian

We live in an an oil centric Province where our Premier has made a career out of opposing the carbon tax. 

There is only one problem. The industry giants and the industry associations are not only in favour of a carbon tax but are becoming quite vocal in terms of saying it is the most effective way to go. Our Premier is hoping that the voters do not catch on to this.


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## Eder

Actually most Albertans overwhelmingly support our Premier. We can't ever afford to go down the NDP road again and the majority understand this.
(If you live in Edmonton I understand your views...Notley hired everyone there to be paid by the public tit)


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## ian

Eder said:


> Actually most Albertans overwhelmingly support our Premier. We can't ever afford to go down the NDP road again and the majority understand this.
> (If you live in Edmonton I understand your views...Notley hired everyone there to be paid by the public tit)


No, we live in Calgary...in the Premier's riding.. Nor am I an NDP supporter. But I am also not a 'blinders on' UCP supporter. I simply do not believe that our Premier's objection to a carbon tax holds any water ( neiither does O'Toole's carbon tax proposition IMHO for that matter despite Ron Leipert's inane comments).

Interestingly enough...neither does the industry. So why does he continue along this path?? We have an interesting situation where our industry players are much more attuned to carbon emissions reductions, and clean energy than is our Premier. They understand the cost savings and increased profits that are in the balance.

What is even more interesting is that these players are moving forward and placing their research monies and their investment dollars in this. They are too polite and supportive to publicly call out just how much further along the curve they are compared to our Premier.

Given the latest polls indicating our Premier is at the lowest point ever of Alberta Premiers and certainly the lowest of any Premier in Canada I could hardly agree the 'Albertans overwhelmingly support our Premier". 

The latest one I have seen (31/7) indicated 39 percent support for the NDP vs 29 percent for the UCP. More akin to underwhelming UCP support than to overwhelming. I suspect the support for the UCP party is far greater than the support for the Premier. No doubt the Premier is acutely aware of this. The recent financial filings of both parties are not good news for this Premiur.

IMHO, the Premier has a larger challenge in maintaining the support of his caucus members, the UCP party members and the well heeled back room power brokers. Alison Redford's dumping from the party is not very far in the Premier's rear view mirror nor is Jim Prentice's shellacking at the polls.
.


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## Eder

Sorry I called you a Redmontonite! I stand corrected. 

(Oh and Kenney opposes the carbon tax because it does nothing to help our climate goal...only a TruAnon would believe that tax has a benefit...now carbon sequester is something he and people with their eyes open should support along with other programs our government does support)


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## damian13ster

Spudd said:


> Explain? Why is it a scam?


Because it doesn't bring down emissions.

Despite carbon tax, our *emissions increased under Trudeau.*
They decreased in US under Trump.
And that is with our economy growing slower than US!

Trudeau is worse on climate than Trump is.
Results are clear.
Carbon tax is nothing but a cash grab.


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## damian13ster

WARMINGTON: Afghan interpreter's dream of coming to Canada turns into nightmare


It was supposed to be a moment to celebrate his newly found freedom and safety.




torontosun.com





Listened to the interview with Afghan interpreter helping Canadian forces on 630 ched and it got interrupted. Now finally found out why.

Trudeau's thugs are detaining afghan interpreters during media interviews:


"When I was talking to my friend Karim about all of the work Wendy Noury Long, Chris Ecklund, Immigration Minister Marco Mendicino, Conservative Leader Erin O’Toole, Charles Adler and fellow CORUS radio host Roy Green — who was actually on the line with us at the time — have done when a man and a woman manhandled Karim and hastily whisked him into the hotel without any explanation. The man later said he was not “authorized” to say who he represented.

It was surreal. It shook us up. Distraught Karim was treated like a prisoner in a free country where he can talk to anybody he wants to.

I won’t stand for our interpreters being touched like that. We don’t do Taliban-style justice here.
“It’s outrageous,” said Ecklund. “I have called the Toronto Police about it.”
A police spokesman told me they have looked into the incident and have informed the people involved — *contractors hired by Immigration Canada* — that Amiry is free to talk to media."

If being detained for no reason other than you don't praise government in the media is not enough to worry about human rights then I don't know what is.


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## sags

I guess you would prefer that people talk to the media so the Taliban can learn what the secret plans are to remove the people that they are actively hunting ?

There was an old saying in WW2........loose lips sinks ships.

Also......you didn't include this paragraph in your quote.

_*Meanwhile, the operation that got Karim on the fourth flight out of Afghanistan to Canada has been halted as the Taliban threaten to take Kabul*. But as much as that is a huge problem, equally as frustrating is that the Afghan government is requiring refugees to have up-to-date passports while at the same time closing the passport offices.* It’s a ploy that has ground the operation to a halt and paralyzed the Canadian response. *_


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## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Because it doesn't bring down emissions.
> 
> Despite carbon tax, our *emissions increased under Trudeau.*
> They decreased in US under Trump.
> And that is with our economy growing slower than US!
> 
> Trudeau is worse on climate than Trump is.
> Results are clear.
> Carbon tax is nothing but a cash grab.


It was clear from the day 1😁 He also created another bunch of government jobs who gonna vote for him


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## bgc_fan

Money172375 said:


> Not sure this is a smart move from the CPC. These are serious times and we have our differences, but not sure I would take this approach.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426242355422765056


For comparison this is the Liberal ad.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426515795308318730


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## damian13ster

sags said:


> I guess you would prefer that people talk to the media so the Taliban can learn what the secret plans are to remove the people that they are actively hunting ?
> 
> There was an old saying in WW2........loose lips sinks ships.
> 
> Also......you didn't include this paragraph in your quote.
> 
> _*Meanwhile, the operation that got Karim on the fourth flight out of Afghanistan to Canada has been halted as the Taliban threaten to take Kabul*. But as much as that is a huge problem, equally as frustrating is that the Afghan government is requiring refugees to have up-to-date passports while at the same time closing the passport offices.* It’s a ploy that has ground the operation to a halt and paralyzed the Canadian response. *_


What does this quite have to do with government officials detaining a person for no other reason than criticizing the government leaving interpreters who worked with Canadian troops to slaughter?
Absolutely nothing. That's why it wasn't included.
Did you listen to the interview during which interpreter was detained?
There was zero there that could threaten anyone, and zero concrete information regarding logistiscs. 630 Ched has been vocal about the issue and in touch with interpreter who made it to Canada as well as those left behind. They are super careful not to disclose too much.

You are excusing government detaining people for criticizing them. Despicable

There is clear path to victory for opposition on those topics:

inflation tax hitting lower and middle class
Trudeau's corruption
Worse environmental record than Donald Trump
Worst performance in entire world in 2020
Abhorrent treatment of Afghan interpreters working with Canadian forces.

Question is whether they will capitalize or not. I don't think they will as both opposition parties are off to terrible start.

NDP promising to further overheat housing market making it completely out of reach of young Canadians
Conservatives starting with that atrocious twitter video.

Think the key to this election is

pounding 'inflation tax' wherever possible, since Canadians are not educated enough to understand the facts in actual economic terms
showing blatant corruption (although corruption has been normalized within government so it might not be as effective)


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## ian

The CPC is embarrassing themselves with that twitter add. Cannot imagine how it got past even a medium grade political advisor

Even the Conservative MP's are complaining about it. 

Hope this turns out to be an early lesson for these duds and that they learn from it.


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## bgc_fan

Or if you're going for attack ads, I think Unifor's is a little more professional.


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## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Or if you're going for attack ads, I think Unifor's is a little more professional.


Exactly. Someone really messed up and do hope they get canned.

They need to hire people who make this guy's ads:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426351283598938115

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1421063020826927104








Sabrina Maddeaux: Why Conservatives should rebrand inflation as a tax during election


What constitutes an acceptable rate is absolutely fair game for campaign season




nationalpost.com


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## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> For comparison this is the Liberal ad.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426515795308318730


Liberal ad reminds me Soviet Union propaganda


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## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> Or if you're going for attack ads, I think Unifor's is a little more professional


That's a great ad!


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## ian

Thirty years or so ago the CPC ran an election ad that made fun of Jean Chretien’s physical deformity. Bells Palsy.

Conservative MP’s called for it to be pulled. It was pulled..a week later.

Kim Campbell’s Gov’t went down to a humiliating defeat. From 169 seat majority Govt to two seats. They were no longer even the official opposition. Worse than that the actually lost ‘party status’ in the Commons.

Chretien claimed after the election one week of that ad gained him an extra 30 seats that the Liberals would not otherwise have won.

The so called senior political advisors apparently ignored their MP’s. They only pulled the ad when Campbell insisted on it. It was too late by then.


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## andrewf

MK7GTI said:


> Just like the Liberals, I'm doing my own round of vote buying. At work, I will be buying lunch for anyone who votes Conservative.


Not sure how you would verify this... we have a secret ballot, boss.


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## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> this is the biggest problem with current election system....as i live in solid red Mississuaga and "my vote never counts for much".
> 
> and this is another problem with election system for both Fed and ON elections.... There is no party that represents my views.


My Mississauga riding went blue provincially. I don't think the suburbs are a lock for Liberals. A competent, non-Oil & Gas pandering conservative could/would swing much of the 905.


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## andrewf

Eder said:


> Actually most Albertans overwhelmingly support our Premier. We can't ever afford to go down the NDP road again and the majority understand this.
> (If you live in Edmonton I understand your views...Notley hired everyone there to be paid by the public tit)


Funny, I thought Kenney was in the dog-house, politically.


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## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Because it doesn't bring down emissions.
> 
> Despite carbon tax, our *emissions increased under Trudeau.*
> They decreased in US under Trump.
> And that is with our economy growing slower than US!
> 
> Trudeau is worse on climate than Trump is.
> Results are clear.
> Carbon tax is nothing but a cash grab.


Did you know it gets hotter in Australia in December, while it gets colder in Canada? Trudeau is worse on weather than Morrison. Nevermind different contexts! Nevermind that Canada was already largely de-coaled in its energy mix, while in the US the coal industry collapsed under Trump--despite his frequently stated desire to stick miners back in deep dark holes.


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## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Liberal ad reminds me Soviet Union propaganda


It is bland pablum that every party puts out in every country as a positive ad. Maybe the imagery is more controversial, but the spoken sentiment is pretty banal.


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## gibor365

ian said:


> Thirty years or so ago the CPC ran an election ad that made fun of Jean Chretien’s physical deformity. Bells Palsy.


AFAIK, it was not CPC , but Reform Party (Manning) ... , but Canadians like defectives LOL


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> My Mississauga riding went blue provincially. I don't think the suburbs are a lock for Liberals. A competent, non-Oil & Gas pandering conservative could/would swing much of the 905.


Provincially practically eveyone was Blue, as not many wanted lunatic-communist from Hamilton... Federal is another story


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> It is bland pablum that every party puts out in every country as a positive ad. Maybe the imagery is more controversial, but the spoken sentiment is pretty banal.


I just don't get hpw people can buy this idioticy !


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## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Did you know it gets hotter in Australia in December, while it gets colder in Canada? Trudeau is worse on weather than Morrison. Nevermind different contexts! Nevermind that Canada was already largely de-coaled in its energy mix, while in the US the coal industry collapsed under Trump--despite his frequently stated desire to stick miners back in deep dark holes.


European Union also largely de-coaled energy long time ago, yet they also managed to decrease emissions over last 5 years.
Trudeau *increased* them.
There is a reason why change in emissions is relative, and not in absolute terms.
We aren't comparing here emission/citizen. We are comparing here whether emissions increased or not.
It decreased in EU and USA, while Trudeau increased them.


But look at the discussion here. All about ads and rhetoric. That's politics nowadays.
For that reason it doesn't matter that Trudeau does worse on environment than Trump.
It doesn't matter that he did worse on economy than any other country in the world.

Whether a volunteer made a better ad for twitter is what gets most discussion in Canada.


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## sags

Conservatives have to hope Canadians forgot about all the moaning and groaning about the Liberal spending during the pandemic to support Canadians.

They have to hope Canadians forgot the Conservatives intimating that those collecting CERB were lazy people who avoided work and the benefits should stop.

Basically, Conservatives insulted Canadians for over a year, calling them lazy and stupid, and now ask for their support.

I am not surprised the Liberals are 9% ahead of the Conservatives in the latest polls. I would be more surprised if they weren't.


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## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Or if you're going for attack ads, I think Unifor's is a little more professional.


Damn good ad. Of course after years of Trudeau "leadership" things are in worse shape, not better.

But facts don't matter, and the ad is slick.

In Ontario they still complain about Mike Harris, ignoring that Liberals were in power for nearly 2 decades.


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## ian

gibor365 said:


> AFAIK, it was not CPC , but Reform Party (Manning) ... , but Canadians like defectives LOL


IT was CPC. Kim Campbell took over from Brian Mulroney.

I can assure you that neither Brian Mulroney nor Kim Campbell were ever Reform Party supporters. My understanding is that it is quite the opposite. After her personal loss, the Chretien Gov/t appointed Campbell our consul in Los Angeles.


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## ian

andrewf said:


> Funny, I thought Kenney was in the dog-house, politically.


Last poll 31/7: Notley/NDP 39% Kenney/UCP 29% 

Kenny's bigger problem is the division within his own party. He could be going the same way as Alison Redford. The Party tossed her mid term. She was a boat anchor.


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## ian

sags said:


> Conservatives have to hope Canadians forgot about all the moaning and groaning about the Liberal spending during the pandemic to support Canadians.
> 
> They have to hope Canadians forgot the Conservatives intimating that those collecting CERB were lazy people who avoided work and the benefits should stop.
> 
> Basically, Conservatives insulted Canadians for over a year, calling them lazy and stupid, and now ask for their support.
> 
> I am not surprised the Liberals are 9% ahead of the Conservatives in the latest polls. I would be more surprised if they weren't.


The polls can distort results. The Conservatives poll exceeding well in Alberta, Man/Sask, Exceedingly poorly in Atlantic Canada and Quebec. Mixed in Ontario ridings and some BC ridings.

Early days. Last election urban voters ran away from Scheer. It did not have to happen...he made it happen because of his inexperience and because he had very poor senior political advisors.

IF O'Toole can swing enough of the the traditionally close ridings he has a good shot. This is a very big IF. Since he became leader neither he nor his political advisors have shown that they can do this. Heck...he did not even get the traditional bump in the polls when he became leader. That in itself is telling. Plus he has the Ford issue to contend with. 

Anything is possible in this election.


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## sags

Game on..........


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## andrewf

ian said:


> The polls can distort results. The Conservatives poll exceeding well in Alberta, Man/Sask, Exceedingly poorly in Atlantic Canada and Quebec. Mixed in Ontario ridings and some BC ridings.
> 
> Early days. Last election urban voters ran away from Scheer. It did not have to happen...he made it happen because of his inexperience and because he had very poor senior political advisors.
> 
> IF O'Toole can swing enough of the the traditionally close ridings he has a good shot. This is a very big IF. Since he became leader neither he nor his political advisors have shown that they can do this. Heck...he did not even get the traditional bump in the polls when he became leader. That in itself is telling. Plus he has the Ford issue to contend with.
> 
> Anything is possible in this election.


I continue to be baffled by the CPC's failure to understand that running up 80% vote in Alberta doesn't deliver them government. They need to pander to suburban GTA, Vancouver, etc. if they want to win. Their whole platform should be tailored to that voter. Creating transparent greenwash environmental policy that makes the O&G industry (or its supporters) purr is exactly the opposite of that. Harper largely got it, which is why he had a bunch of boutique tax credits targeted at suburban middle class, and brooked no social conservative dissent. Also aggressively courted immigrant communities. That is how you win as a Conservative. Making typical Alberta CPC voter very happy is how you lose. Those voters should be grumbling about how the CPC sold out to the damned easterners.

Honest truth!


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## ian

andrewf said:


> I continue to be baffled by the CPC's failure to understand that running up 80% vote in Alberta doesn't deliver them government. They need to pander to suburban GTA, Vancouver, etc. if they want to win. Their whole platform should be tailored to that voter. Creating transparent greenwash environmental policy that makes the O&G industry (or its supporters) purr is exactly the opposite of that. Harper largely got it, which is why he had a bunch of boutique tax credits targeted at suburban middle class, and brooked no social conservative dissent. Also aggressively courted immigrant communities. That is how you win as a Conservative. Making typical Alberta CPC voter very happy is how you lose. Those voters should be grumbling about how the CPC sold out to the damned easterners.
> 
> Honest truth!


As an Albertan I agree. O'Toole spent some time here a few weeks ago. Cannot understand why. His focus should be on some BC ridings. 905/416 , and Quebec. O'Toole's popularity is comparatively low in Alberta but that is meaningless given the typical Conservative lead in the polls. It makes me wonder about the political advice that he is following. Just hope that he does not have the same advisors as Scheer had.

O'Toole's so called carbon tax proposal was panned in Alberta and ridiculed in the BC, Ontario, and Atlantic areas where he needs to increase his seat count.

O'Toole needs to propose real policies that are aimed at Canadian voters, not aimed to placate CPC members in his divided Party.


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## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> In Ontario they still complain about Mike Harris, ignoring that Liberals were in power for nearly 2 decades.


About what? I hear the opposite that it's all about Wynne, even though all the damage was done during Dalton McGuinty's time.


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## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> About what? I hear the opposite that it's all about Wynne, even though all the damage was done during Dalton McGuinty's time.


While she was an improvement over McGuinty, Wynne did the coverup and had her own slew of disasters.


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## sags

Give people what they want........not what you want them to think they should want.


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## ian

What will be interesting is if the Liberals and the Conservatives each fail to reach a majority. Especially if the Conservatives gain a few more seats than the Liberals but are still very much in the minority. This was Harper's big fear years ago.

Who will the NDP support to form a Government? Who will the Bloc support? It will not necessarily be the Party with the most seats but rather the Party that they feel they can work with. Shades of Real Caouette and the Creditistes of years gone by. 

There will be lots of backroom shenanigans and machinations in both Conservative and Liberal camps. And a rush to sell out their respective values (what little they both have) in order to gain power.


----------



## sags

I think the Conservatives need to win a majority to govern. 

Any other scenario would mean a Liberal majority or Liberal minority government supported by the NDP.


----------



## andrewf

Who knows what can happen in 40 days, but it seems unlikely the LPC will get a worse outcome than 2019. The one wild card is that the NDP might outperform expectations. Their leader is a better net favourability than Trudeau or O'Toole (though I am not a fan). Not sure what that might mean in terms of shifting vote or vote splitting. O'Toole having lower support in Alberta might also mean that their lower polling nationally is not so bad as you might think, as it will be more efficient. Scheer actually had higher popular vote in 2019 than Trudeau but it was driven by supermajorities in the Prairies.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> I think the Conservatives need to win a majority to govern.
> 
> 
> I think you are right about this.


Both parties are so close to center that it many not matter. Our gang and your gang.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Who knows what can happen in 40 days, but it seems unlikely the LPC will get a worse outcome than 2019. The one wild card is that the NDP might outperform expectations. Their leader is a better net favourability than Trudeau or O'Toole (though I am not a fan). Not sure what that might mean in terms of shifting vote or vote splitting. O'Toole having lower support in Alberta might also mean that their lower polling nationally is not so bad as you might think, as it will be more efficient. Scheer actually had higher popular vote in 2019 than Trudeau but it was driven by supermajorities in the Prairies.


The one plot-twist that can arrive is JWR's book.
We all know that current Government of Canada is racist.
Having a first-hand account of that come out two weeks before election might make people who don't follow politics also realize just how prevalent racism is in Liberal party


----------



## andrewf

JWR is kind of spent, I think. She is self-aggrandizing. Of course she will try to cash in. Reminds me of John Bolton and his book. They'd both rather move paper and collect royalties than disclose material information in a timely fashion.


----------



## sags

The date of the election means JWR will miss her life time pension by one month.

That is some real expensive bad luck right there......$35000 per year retirement pension I think.

Funny how life works out.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The date of the election means JWR will miss her life time pension by one month.
> 
> Funny how life works out.


I don't think it matters.
In Canada I know we don't blame the victim.
If a sexual-assault victim comes to you I hope you don't tell them 'you asked for it' or 'you deserved it' just because you are fond of the assaulter.
Same applies to racism.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> The one plot-twist that can arrive is JWR's book.
> We all know that current Government of Canada is racist.
> Having a first-hand account of that come out two weeks before election might make people who don't follow politics also realize just how prevalent racism is in Liberal party


Yeah, but JWR is racist too, she was appointed, because of her race, and she instituted racist policies to the detriment of Canada.
So the beneficiary of racism is going to blow the whistle on HER government being racist? 
But that's the game the racists play.


----------



## Eclectic21

gibor365 said:


> AFAIK, it was not CPC , but Reform Party (Manning) ... , but Canadians like defectives LOL


Where did you get the idea it was the Reform Party (Manning)?

As per the Youtube link below which includes Chretien's comments in response about the CPC hitting a new low. The CPC logo is in the ad where CPC candidates issued apologies. There's also footage of PM Kim Campbell being questioned about it where she apologizes as well.

It would have been quite the trick for the Reform Party to put out the ad, pretending to be CPC then have the CPC, Liberals and PM all blame the CPC instead - with no CPC complaint that it wasn't them!!







Cheers


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, but JWR is racist too, *she was appointed, because of her race*, and *she instituted racist policies to the detriment of Canada*.
> So the beneficiary of racism is going to blow the whistle on HER government being racist?
> But that's the game the racists play.


The first bolded is an assumption - possible correct, but an assumption nevertheless.
And second bolded is true. Two wrongs don't make it right though.
First hand account of just how racist Liberal party is could have an effect on election.
And blaming someone calling out racism (with hypocrisy or not, doesn't matter since two wrongs don't make a right) just because you like the racist is low.


----------



## damian13ster

'Recoil effect': New Nanos polling shows Liberals may be out of majority territory


Anticipation that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will trigger an election on Sunday has resulted in a 'recoil effect' in the Liberals' ballot numbers, possibly moving them out of majority territory, according a survey conducted by Nanos Research.




www.ctvnews.ca





The real question is what happens if there is another minority government?
Useless election, useless spending, and second time during pandemic that government is suspended for purely political reason.
Do we have another election right away?


----------



## ian

Eclectic21 said:


> Where did you get the idea it was the Reform Party (Manning)?
> 
> As per the Youtube link below which includes Chretien's comments in response about the CPC hitting a new low. The CPC logo is in the ad where CPC candidates issued apologies. There's also footage of PM Kim Campbell being questioned about it where she apologizes as well.
> 
> It would have been quite the trick for the Reform Party to put out the ad, pretending to be CPC then have the CPC, Liberals and PM all blame the CPC instead - with no CPC complaint that it wasn't them!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers


The ads ran for more that 24 hours. We lived in Vancouver at the time. Four close seats went Liberal because of this add.....including Kim Campbell's. IMHO Canadian have a sense of fairness. That is why politicians like Derek Sloan or Maxime Bernier, and others get kicked to the gutter.


----------



## sags

_The real question is what happens if there is another minority government?_

Then Trudeau continues to be PM. 

And hopefully a 3rd election win will dampen down the rabble coming from his detractors.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> _The real question is what happens if there is another minority government?_
> 
> Then Trudeau continues to be PM.


yeah, but the entire argument for having an election, wasting time, and spending money during the pandemic is that they are incapable of ruling as minority government. Suddenly 40 days from now that would no longer be true?


----------



## sags

The people speak as one voice.


----------



## sags

With another election win, Trudeau will climb the list of popular long serving PMs. I believe he will pass Stephen Harper on the list.


----------



## sags

With another election win, the father and son Trudeau PM tenures......the only one in Canadian history, would rule almost 25 years of Canadian history.

This is truly a historic election in many ways.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> With another election win, the father and son Trudeau PM tenures......the only one in Canadian history, would rule almost 25 years of Canadian history.
> 
> This is truly a historic election in many ways.


****, they will pass Castro soon!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Here in Saskatchewan people overwhelmingly support the current conservative government. I voted liberal here last election because NDP in this province has zero chances. In the last federal election I voted NDP because I thought the conservatives had enough.
Quite on contrary seeing how local conservative government handled pandemic vs how it is handled by liberal federal government. I will be voting conservatives in September.
and comment on those ads, who cares. I don’t.


----------



## ian

Eclectic21 said:


> Where did you get the idea it was the Reform Party (Manning)?
> 
> As per the Youtube link below which includes Chretien's comments in response about the CPC hitting a new low. The CPC logo is in the ad where CPC candidates issued apologies. There's also footage of PM Kim Campbell being questioned about it where she apologizes as well.
> 
> It would have been quite the trick for the Reform Party to put out the ad, pretending to be CPC then have the CPC, Liberals and PM all blame the CPC instead - with no CPC complaint that it wasn't them!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers


The back story on this is that Jean Chretien's senior campaign advisors wanted him to to issue a statement condemning the add. He refused....and said he would be picking up thousands of votes every time that advert aired. He was correct!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

As Afghanistan shows us the liberals are weak leaders, Biden is a weak leader, Justin T. (Never could spell his surname) is a weak leader. Harper and Bush were strong leaders, Trump was a mistake.


----------



## Johnny199r

Ukrainiandude said:


> As Afghanistan shows us the liberals are weak leaders, Biden is a weak leader, Justin T. (Never could spell his surname) is a weak leader. Harper and Bush were strong leaders, Trump was a mistake.


This is quite a take. Define "Strong Leader"? History doesnt look back too fondly at Bush in Iraq...


----------



## sags

Or Trump's peace deal with the Taliban. They just sat back and waited for the US to leave.

Biden did mess up though. He should have announced the US was leaving and then when the Taliban came out of hiding.......carpet bombed them to bits.


----------



## Eder

ian said:


> The back story on this is that Jean Chretien's senior campaign advisors wanted him to to issue a statement condemning the add. He refused....and said he would be picking up thousands of votes every time that advert aired. He was correct!


I never liked Chretien but he was a class act and a genius compared to the doofuses we have recently been exposed to. I'd vote Jean anytime right now.


----------



## Ukrainiandude




----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Trudeau defends apology and $10.5-million payment to Omar Khadr*
Mr. Khadr was accused of throwing a grenade that killed a U.S. Army medic in Afghanistan in 2002.









Trudeau defends apology and $10.5-million payment to Omar Khadr


This week the government officially apologized to Khadr for the role Canadian security officials played in the abuses he suffered as a teenage prisoner of the U.S. military at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba




www.theglobeandmail.com





*Liberal caucus office paid U.S. firm $1-million with taxpayer money








Liberal caucus office paid U.S. firm $1-million with taxpayer money


A contract with NGP VAN shows the company is being paid US$13,500 a month from the LRB, a taxpayer-funded office that supports Trudeau government MPs




www.theglobeandmail.com





OTTAWA – Prime Minister Justin Trudeau asked WE Charity to host a 2017 Canada Day weekend event on Parliament Hill, the organization’s co-founder said, for which the government paid $1.18 million. And Trudeau’s mother, who had been receiving fees for making public appearances at WE events at the time, was a speaker at the event.








Trudeau government arranged $1.18 million for WE Day event featuring Margaret Trudeau


'It's an unbelievable revelation in a series of unbelievable revelations,' said Conservative ethics critic Michael Barrett




nationalpost.com




*


----------



## agent99

Johnny199r said:


> This is quite a take. Define "Strong Leader"? History doesnt look back too fondly at Bush in Iraq...


 I actually kind of like George Bush. Seems like a decent person who was put in a position he couldn't handle. As a result, he was manipulated.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Johnny199r said:


> This is quite a take. Define "Strong Leader"? History doesnt look back too fondly at Bush in Iraq...


Someone I could see acting as a commander-in-chief if the country was attacked by an adversary.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

I don’t think Harper would pay 10.5 million to a terrorist who killed US Army Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer and injured two others.
The widow of Speer and another American soldier blinded by the grenade in Afghanistan filed a wrongful death and injury lawsuit against Khadr in 2014 fearing Khadr might get his hands on money from his $20 million wrongful imprisonment lawsuit. A U.S. judge granted $134.2 million in damages in 2015, but the plaintiffs acknowledged then that there was little chance they would collect any of the money from Khadr because he lives in Canada.
Omar Khadr: Canada pays ex-Gitmo detainee who killed US soldier millions, but soldier's widow may never see a dime
US veteran blinded in Omar Khadr ambush says payment is treasonous
I don’t see this as anything but treason,” Morris told the newspaper. “It’s something a traitor would do. As far as I am concerned, Prime Minister Trudeau should be charged.”


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t think Harper would pay 10.5 million to a terrorist who killed US Army Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer and injured two others.
> The widow of Speer and another American soldier blinded by the grenade in Afghanistan filed a wrongful death and injury lawsuit against Khadr in 2014 fearing Khadr might get his hands on money from his $20 million wrongful imprisonment lawsuit. A U.S. judge granted $134.2 million in damages in 2015, but the plaintiffs acknowledged then that there was little chance they would collect any of the money from Khadr because he lives in Canada.
> Omar Khadr: Canada pays ex-Gitmo detainee who killed US soldier millions, but soldier's widow may never see a dime
> US veteran blinded in Omar Khadr ambush says payment is treasonous
> I don’t see this as anything but treason,” Morris told the newspaper. “It’s something a traitor would do. As far as I am concerned, Prime Minister Trudeau should be charged.”


Greatest hits, I see.


----------



## james4beach

I won't dream of voting Conservative until they explain why they started feeding unfounded rumours near the end of the last election that their opponent was a child molester -- very much in the style of Republican extremists.

That is one of the most bizarre and improper things I have witnessed in a Canadian election, and I don't trust any party that goes down that path.

I filed complaints with Elections Canada when I traced some Conservative-linked operatives who were publishing this fake defamatory information online. It happened in the final days but got lost in the noise, but this was very significant to me.

This incident showed the total lack of morals and ethics of the Conservatives (aka Reform / Canadian Alliance). Some of these people are scumbags who associate with extremists and mimic the tactics of Republican scumbags. That's not acceptable for a major political party.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> I won't dream of voting Conservative until they explain why they started feeding unfounded rumours near the end of the last election that their opponent was a child molester -- very much in the style of Republican extremists.
> 
> That is one of the most bizarre and improper things I have witnessed in a Canadian election, and I don't trust any party that goes down that path.
> 
> I filed complaints with Elections Canada when I traced some Conservative-linked operatives who were publishing this fake defamatory information online. It happened in the final days but got lost in the noise, but this was very significant to me.
> 
> This incident showed the total lack of morals and ethics of the Conservatives (aka Reform / Canadian Alliance). Some of these people are scumbags who associate with extremists and mimic the tactics of Republican scumbags. That's not acceptable for a major political party.


Huh? You got any links?
I followed the election pretty closely and all I saw was information about hush money payment for sexual assault allegation. Didn't hear anything about child molesting.

And as it comes to Republicans I guess you refer to their use of this photo?


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> Huh? You got any links?
> I followed the election pretty closely and all I saw was information about hush money payment for sexual assault allegation. Didn't hear anything about child molesting.


Sure, this article describes part of it.

The story came out of the dark web of social media / conspiracy sites. That itself is inevitable and not too concerning. But here's the problem. When I went digging into those sources, I found associations related to the Conservative Party (which I reported to Elections Canada).

On top of it, a Conservative press release *was based on the hoax story*, which indicates that they knew it existed and were encouraging the hoax. Really dirty behaviour. The analysis cited in this story explains it quite well.

One source in this article also says a web site spreading the hoax was registered to the Conservative party. My own research found something similar, but not exactly the same thing. The Conservative Party should have faced huge consequences IMO for deliberately spreading (via their official press release) a hoax, misinformation.

What other hoaxes and wild stories will the Conservatives come up with this time? This is very similar to how the MAGA Republicans operate. You can't trust a party which resorts to these kinds of tactics.









Conservative press release on Trudeau’s teaching job amplified fake news, analysis shows - National | Globalnews.ca


A Conservative press release about Liberal leader Justin Trudeau's teaching career amplified unfounded claims that he was fired for sexual misconduct, an analysis shows.




globalnews.ca


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Sure, this article describes part of it.
> 
> The story came out of the dark web of social media / conspiracy sites. That itself is inevitable and not too concerning. But here's the problem. When I went digging into those sources, I found associations related to the Conservative Party (which I reported to Elections Canada).
> 
> On top of it, a Conservative press release *was based on the hoax story*, which indicates that they knew it existed and were encouraging the hoax. Really dirty behaviour. The analysis cited in this story explains it quite well.
> 
> What other hoaxes and wild stories will the Conservatives come up with this time? This is very similar to how the MAGA Republicans operate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservative press release on Trudeau’s teaching job amplified fake news, analysis shows - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> A Conservative press release about Liberal leader Justin Trudeau's teaching career amplified unfounded claims that he was fired for sexual misconduct, an analysis shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Ah, that explains it. Don't really frequent dark web for election news.

The latter is kind of grey area.
If multiple news sources report on something, then it is pretty damn hard to verify or disprove the story. Unfortunately the case but writing off someone for spreading misinformation based on news reports would leave absolutely everyone mute.


And I don't think they need to come up with hoaxes.

corruption
worse environmental record than Donald Trump
worst deficit in developed world
2nd highest unemployment
racism
afghan interpreters debacle
The big trap are vaccine passports. Only way to frame the response is:
- We believe Canadians are smart and will make the right choice. This has been proven by higher vaccine uptake in Canada compared to other countries. 
As politicians, we do not believe that we are smarter than Canadians, feel a need to control their life, and that in a democracy a voice of each individual should count as much as a voice of any politician. 
If they are able to frame it as trusting Canadians to make a right choice and not becoming police state vs. human rights or anti-vax issue, then it is a winning position.
They did decent job today but not a home-run by any means. No mention of trust in intelligence of Canadians.

There is plenty of legitimate reasons to not only not vote for Liberals, but also to state they were single worst government in recent history.

The issue with the election is timing. You will see more and more countries call elections within next 12 months.
The aftermaths of politicians' idiocy won't hit us for another year or two. If election actually went ahead when scheduled, they would be absolutely screwed.
Now they can try to whether the storm given that they have 4 years.
This situation is not unique at all to Canada. There are rumours of every election in multiple countries. As a ruling party you have two outcomes:

you weather the storm over next 4 years
opposition wins and you can blame them for consequences of your own idiotic actions during next crisis

Win-win


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> And I don't think they need to come up with hoaxes.


These Liberal issues must not have been important enough on their own, because the Conservatives put out a pre-debate press release specifically to fuel a social media hoax. They knew exactly what they were doing, and the press let them get away with it.

I guess this shows just how little the Conservatives had against the Liberals. If there are any serious issues, I expect -- and WANT -- the Conservatives to impress that point.

What I don't want is to see our country devolve into social media and conspiracy theory based garbage, like what Trump and the Republicans have been doing. That's why I think this behaviour from the Conservatives is so dangerous.

If it was a one-off judgement error, fine. But we're in big trouble if the Conservatives plan to imitate Republicans and the right wing conspiracy theory tactics.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> These Liberal issues must not have been important enough on their own, because the Conservatives put out a pre-debate press release specifically to fuel a social media hoax. They knew exactly what they were doing, and the press let them get away with it.
> 
> I guess this shows just how little the Conservatives had against the Liberals. If there are any serious issues, I expect -- and WANT -- the Conservatives to impress that point.
> 
> What I don't want is to see our country devolve into social media and conspiracy theory based garbage, like what Trump and the Republicans have been doing. That's why I think this behaviour from the Conservatives is so dangerous.
> 
> If it was a one-off judgement error, fine. But we're in big trouble if the Conservatives plan to imitate Republicans and the right wing conspiracy theory tactics.


You really are putting it into partisan issue again. Disinformation and conspiracy theories aren't a one-side issue. They are painfully present on both sides. Not to side-step it into US politics, but Muller investigation was literally chasing of conspiracy theory, hush money to strippers, quid-pro-quo with Ukraine, Hunter Biden laptop, etc. Politics are unfortunately increasingly dirty and more focused on theatre rather than actual issues. They just reflect the societies.
That's why you have people like Trump and Trudeau winning. That's why you have election look like they do. All about narrative


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> You really are putting it into partisan issue again. Disinformation and conspiracy theories aren't a one-side issue. They are painfully present on both sides.


You're really off base if you think both parties have been engaging in disinformation. All of the disinformation and wacky propaganda has been coming from Trump's people.

I've seen from your other posts that you do believe in various conspiracy theories, so I don't expect to have a sensible discussion with you on this kind of matter. We already know what you think.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> You're really off base if you think both parties have been engaging in disinformation. All of the disinformation and wacky propaganda has been coming from Trump's people.
> 
> I've seen from your other posts that you do believe in various conspiracy theories, so I don't expect to have a sensible discussion with you on this kind of matter. We already know what you think.


Off base? If you mean I don't belong to a base of either party then yeah, that is right.
I provided actual examples of conspiracy theories propagated and used politically. You don't refute single one of them and get personal.

Believe in various conspiracy theories? Name one. Again, you post out of your 3 letter-body part without providing any facts.


----------



## MrMatt

The Liberals decided to make vaccination a partisan issue.
Almost everyone the government is letting have a vaccine has gotten one.
The only significant group of people who aren't vaccinated are those the government is literally prohibiting from getting vaccinated.


----------



## agent99

Is there away to ignore one complete thread on CMF?


----------



## damian13ster

agent99 said:


> Is there away to ignore one complete thread on CMF?


Two options:
1. Just don't click on it.
2. When you have 'followed thread' or something like that, click on it and then you can manage what is being followed and what is not


----------



## agent99

The other option is to put those posting a lot of BS on *ignore*. You will be the first. DONE!


----------



## damian13ster

agent99 said:


> The other option is to put those posting a lot of BS on *ignore*. You will be the first. DONE!


Do whatever suits you!
You asked a question, I provided answer to it.
You are a free man (still) so do with it as you please. Not sure public announcement is necessary but up to you


----------



## sags

It is "show time" for the political parties.

The Liberals presented a very in-depth explanation of their vision of the future in the 2021 budget. People can disagree with it, but they know what it is.

The other parties have to show up with more than a binder full of complaints. Already O'Toole stumbled on the reporter's questions on mandatory vaccinations.

While O'Toole is saying one thing, some of his MPs are making headlines saying something else. It is going to be a difficult campaign for O'Toole.

To have any success, O'Toole is going to have to show Canadians that he is in full command and what he says will actually be the Conservative policy.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I guess this shows just how little the Conservatives had against the Liberals. If there are any serious issues, I expect -- and WANT -- the Conservatives to impress that point.


Bribes and corruption must stop. 
The government must support human rights. 

Balanced budgets would be nice too.... but you can't bribe people without spending money.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

All liberals do to balance the budget is to print more money. Put Canadians more into debt, and make houses less affordable .


----------



## Ukrainiandude

On a monthly basis, Canada posted a deficit of *C$31.44 billion in March 2021*, compared to a deficit of C$14.79 billion recorded in March 2020. Monthly revenues increased by 33.8%, driven by an increase in tax and other revenues, while program expenses were up 69.0%.
Trudeau promised to run just two years of deficits at $10 billion per year before returning to balance. Even before the pandemic drove spending through the roof, the Trudeau Liberals had jacked up spending to levels not seen outside of wartime spending. Canada’s debt has nearly doubled in the six years Trudeau has been in power and now stands at $1.1 trillion while growing at a rate of $17 million per hour.


----------



## sags

So what ?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> So what ?


We have 9th worst debt in entire world and number 3 among developed countries.
You said it is time to start worrying when we are amongst worst in the world - well, that time is now


----------



## sags

Why ?


----------



## sags

The US just passed a $3 trillion infrastructure bill.

They owe $30 trillion in debt and trillions more for bankrupt Social Security and Medicare plus off books military spending.

Our equivalent level of debt would be $3 trillion. We got at least $2 trillion more to play with.

Other countries don't owe as much debt because they can't borrow money. Their credit sucks and they have low revenue generation capacity.

Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland is a world renowned expert on macro economics and sovereign debt. We are in good hands.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Why ?


Because we are among worst in entire world in terms of debt. 
Therefore if there will be a need to deleverage we will be pretty much worst hit economy in the entire world.
You found it to be a concern 2 days ago, stating that until we are among worst in the world there is no reason to worry about debt.
Suddenly once you found out that liberals put us in the position where we are actually among the worst in the world in total government debt/GDP it is no longer an issue?


----------



## sags

There are only 2 countries that matter much to Canada.......the Chinese and the Americans. 

The rest...........pfft.........who cares.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> So what ?


We all know he is a liar and should be behind bars.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The US just passed a $3 trillion infrastructure bill.
> 
> They owe $30 trillion in debt and trillions more for bankrupt Social Security and Medicare plus off books military spending.
> 
> Our equivalent level of debt would be $3 trillion. We got at least $2 trillion more to play with.


I don't know what data you are working with, but we are already at over 3 trillion.
If you are not even aware of what general government debt is in Canada and you are underestimating it by 200%, are you sure you are qualified to make informed decisions?
First need to get the facts straight






General government gross debt, quarterly


General government gross domestic and foreign debt, and financial liabilities by category, quarterly.




www150.statcan.gc.ca


----------



## sags

General US government debt is $64 trillion...........20 X more with 10X the population.



https://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html



Your "woe is Canada" theory has more holes than a spaghetti strainer.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> General US government debt is $64 trillion...........20 X more with 10X the population.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> Your "woe is Canada" theory has more holes than a spaghetti strainer.


No it doesn't. Canada is in top 3 among developed countries.
I operate with accurate numbers. You don't.
You claim that we have 2 trillion to go before we hit 3 trillion.
Truth is that we are already above 3 trillion.
And not woe is Canada - woe is current government.
They put Canada from enviable financial stability to the top 3 worst financial situation in developed world in just 6 years.
Canada is a great country, that is right now being ran by idiots, supported by people who aren't even aware of what debt the country has.
Doesn't change the fact that it is a great country.


----------



## sags

The Federal government isn't responsible for Provincial debt.

The Federal debt is about $1.4 trillion.

You sound panicked and confused all the time.

God created Conservatives to sit around and worry about nothing.

Relax........get on the bus and leave the driving to us.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The Federal government isn't responsible for Provincial debt.
> 
> The Federal debt is about $1.4 trillion.


Of course it is. Newfoundland was bailed out as recently as a month ago.
Sidenote:
try to guess which year Liberal Party took over the government in Newfoundland:









Ultimately federal government picks up the tab for provincial debt as well.
Correction: citizens of Canada pick up the tab both for federal and provincial debt.

How can you compare financial situation of a country where government debt is two-tiered with countries where it is one-tiered (vast majority of the world)?
You need to look at general government debt.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> General US government debt is


 The US issue a global reserve currency and can afford that.
The Euro/CAD isn't the world's reserve currency the USD is, there is only one reserve currency.
In Q1, the renminbi reached a whopping 2.45% of total currencies, though China is either the largest or second largest economy in the world, depending on how the counting is done. The renminbi is in fifth position behind the US dollar (59.5%), the euro (20.6%), the yen (5.9%), and the UK pound (4.7%), and ahead of the Canadian dollar (2.1%) and the Australian dollar (1.8%).


----------



## sags

First day ranking.........

Trudeau = A +......good optics, good speech, trapped O'Toole into a first day mistake on the question of the vaccine mandate.

Singh = A........good statement.......no mistakes.

O'Toole = F.........poor answers to reporters about vaccine mandate that required a statement later to clarify his position. 
poor optics sitting in a studio to protect himself against Covid while telling people it is safe to go to work, dine out, reopen schools etc.


----------



## damian13ster

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-party-election-platform-1.6142319



Finally! A tax break for investment in small businesses and a tax break for capital investment.
Single smartest move one could make to revive the economy.
Low carbon savings account is brilliant compared to carbon tax. Finally a reward for lowering emissions will go to the people doing the work.
The money is left in the hands of Canadians so they are rewarded for their actions, instead of simply having additional tax with zero effect on emissions as there is little incentive to cut them from individual's perspective.

Decent response on vaccines too:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/otoole-opposes-mandatory-vaccination-1.6142113


making them political issue is a low blow and against nation's interest.
But still missing that 'trust the Canadians to make smart choice' line

Not a fan of other proposals. Wage subsidy is way too much. There is very little reason for it.
GST holiday is populism. No need for it either.
Their ideas don't really improve inflation.
Now we basically have 3 left wing parties in terms of economy in Canada. It is sad but unfortunately that's what you get when people chase power rather than stick to their values


----------



## MrMatt

Ukrainiandude said:


> All liberals do to balance the budget is to print more money. Put Canadians more into debt, and make houses less affordable .


Honestly I think the Canada Workers benefit is a great policy. I'd rather they raise the basic personal deduction, but I'm glad they're aiming at helping the working poor.


----------



## sags

Eliminating child care and handing low income parents a few dollars..... is a non starter for Canadians.

Eliminating carbon taxes for some "cash account" program sounds unnecessarily complicated.

A GST holiday is a gift to the wealthy who buy expensive assets. It will pull forward future sales of expensive items, so economic impact would be small.

They should have announced a Guaranteed Basic Income.


----------



## bgc_fan

Here's a link to what I assume is their platform: https://cpcassets.conservative.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/16102359/f8279981721e07a.pdf


----------



## damian13ster

Ahh, so now you speak for all Canadians?
The focus on low income parents, often from a single-income family could really benefit a lot of Canadians.
Finally work of house management would be appreciated.
It also makes sure that dollars actually go towards people that need it (lower income).

Carbon tax idea is brilliant. You finally see effects of your actions, and have incentive to do something, as you physically see the reward in your bank account.
Having money flow to you rather than to be wasted by government could be a good incentive.
Maybe we would finally do better on climate than Donald Trump. Trudeau failed miserably in this regard as his tax grab resulted in higher emissions and higher prices.

GST gift is useless, I agree. Not for the reason you mentioned. GST actually hits low income people more as they spend higher % of their spending on consumption rather than savings/investment.
So your sentiment is right, but reasoning is completely backwards.

Here is the link I guess. Article states it has 160 pages so I don't think it is the one you attached (although it might be)








Conservative Party of Canada


Today’s Conservative Party is a vibrant national organization with strong grassroots support from coast to coast to coast. The Party, its caucus, and its members upholding the proud Canadian Conservative tradition.




www.conservative.ca


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Carbon tax idea is brilliant. You finally see effects of your actions, and have incentive to do something, as you physically see the reward in your bank account.


Carbon tax just pushes even more industry to China


----------



## sags

Carbon tax is already given back to Canadians.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Carbon tax just pushes even more industry to China


Of course. Ideal solution would be no carbon tax.
The form proposed is much superior to what we have now and this is the comparison I am using for the comment.

The hypocrisy of overregulation can be seen in the call by US for OPEC nations with lax environmental laws to produce more oil, while throttling more environmentally friendly industry at home

Even if you assume that carbon tax is given back to Canadians, there isn't an incentive for individual to cut back emissions.
A person would get back exactly the same amount whether they drive a Prius, shut off AC, and install solar panels, or if they have 10MPG Hummer, keep temperature in the house at 10 degrees in the summer, etc.
This way an action of an individual actually has direct and proportional reward for the individual


----------



## like_to_retire

I thought at least we wouldn't have to listen to the parties lie about balancing the budget since we know that the  Parliamentary Budget Officer predicts the federal government won’t balance its budget until 2070. 

But no such luck as  Erin O'Toole said a Conservative government would balance the budget in ten years' time.

Sigh.

ltr


----------



## sags

I say keep the carbon tax and put it all into a fund to fix climate change damage.

Insurance companies are going to exit areas of high risk and people will have to relocate.

The costs are going to overwhelm government budgets and any plans to balance the books long into the future......or ever.


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> I thought at least we wouldn't have to listen to the parties lie about balancing the budget since we know that the  Parliamentary Budget Officer predicts the federal government won’t balance its budget until 2070.
> 
> But no such luck as  Erin O'Toole said a Conservative government would balance the budget in ten years' time.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> ltr


Those are two completely unrelated things.
The Parliamentary Budget Officer says it won't return to balance under the status quo.

“Prime Minister Justin Trudeau promised Canadians he would balance the books in 2019, but it turns out that we will have to wait about 50 years before we see a balanced budget,” said Franco Terrazzano, Federal Director for the CTF. “Racking up trillions of dollars in debt and interest is not okay, and that’s why we need to see federal politicians start taking deficits seriously.”

New government is not status quo. PBO saying that Trudeau won't balance the budget until 2070 has nothing to do with other parties


----------



## sags

I also think here we are with new programs flying off the shelves in all directions, and all they really gotta do is create one benefit that covers everything.

A Guaranteed Income Benefit please. We don't need to hire more public servants to administer even more programs.

Future budgets are going to be so big they will need to bring it into Parliament with a fork lift truck.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> Even if you assume that carbon tax is given back to Canadians, there isn't an incentive for individual to cut back emissions.
> A person would get back exactly the same amount whether they drive a Prius, shut off AC, and install solar panels, or if they have 10MPG Hummer, keep temperature in the house at 10 degrees in the summer, etc.
> This way an action of an individual actually has direct and proportional reward for the individual


Pretty wrong on both counts.

The Conservative plan promotes spending on carbon-based goods as someone who buys more fuel will get more carbon "credits" to be spent in a prescribed way. Someone who is green and uses their bike, takes public transport, gets little, or nothing out of this.

The normal carbon tax is that everyone gets back a share of the collected carbon taxes. Those who are green would have spent less money on the carbon tax than those who are driving Hummers, so they would be benefiting more than those driving Hummers who will be negative as their payment of carbon tax would be greater than what they receive back.

Edit: As for Trump policies helping reduce CO2 emissions... that's a hard no seeing as he wanted to increase coal energy production. But it was economics that is phasing out coal power plants in favour of natural gas. It's been like this for a while, which is why the coal industry is dying in the US.








US Coal Power Generation Plummets 30% in 2020, EIA Says


Coal power fell by a record amount last year, and things have gone downhill quickly from there for the embattled sector.




www.greentechmedia.com


----------



## andrewf

The O'Toole plan is an elaborate shell game to make it look like a carbon tax, but in reality just forces taxpayers to spend some money on things like furnaces and windows that they would anyway.


----------



## damian13ster

bgc_fan said:


> Pretty wrong on both counts.
> 
> The Conservative plan promotes spending on carbon-based goods as someone who buys more fuel will get more carbon "credits" to be spent in a prescribed way. Someone who is green and uses their bike, takes public transport, gets little, or nothing out of this.
> 
> The normal carbon tax is that everyone gets back a share of the collected carbon taxes. Those who are green would have spent less money on the carbon tax than those who are driving Hummers, so they would be benefiting more than those driving Hummers who will be negative as their payment of carbon tax would be greater than what they receive back.
> 
> Edit: As for Trump policies helping reduce CO2 emissions... that's a hard no seeing as he wanted to increase coal energy production. But it was economics that is phasing out coal power plants in favour of natural gas. It's been like this for a while, which is why the coal industry is dying in the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Coal Power Generation Plummets 30% in 2020, EIA Says
> 
> 
> Coal power fell by a record amount last year, and things have gone downhill quickly from there for the embattled sector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.greentechmedia.com


You are aware that you can only spend the money on 'green' products under the plan, right?
Recycling tax is not extra earning. You do not benefit by spending more on carbon intensive products.
Common misconception, same with public vs private sector workers.

Basically if you don't spend money on carbon tax by choosing green alternative, you get to choose how to spend the money.
If you do spend money on carbon tax, you can only use the money on 'green' products.
Whether it will work or not, I am not sure.
*What we do know though, is that Liberal plan turned out to be complete failure.
Prices and emissions both increased*


So what economics of Canada cause increases of carbon emission under Trudeau?
He is a net-negative on carbon emissions despite taxing people. Effect of his work are worse than effect of Trump's work when it comes to climate.
Emissions under Trudeau increased. Emissions under Trump decreased. It was the same time period, same economy.
Now, this is not promoting Trump. He didn't give a ****. It is simply to show how ineffective Trudeau's tax is


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> It was the same time period, same economy.


I think you'll find that Canada and the US have, in fact, different economies. Canada is much more resource dependent.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> I think you'll find that Canada and the US have, in fact, different economies. Canada is much more resource dependent.


Of course. You can't blame the resources for increase in emissions for two reasons:

Commodity price index really didn't change much between 2015 and 2019.








Commodity Price Index


The Bank of Canada commodity price index (BCPI) is a chain Fisher price index of the spot or transaction prices in U.S. dollars of 24 commodities produced in Canada and sold in world markets.




www.bankofcanada.ca




Investment in resource sector also decreased during that time in Canada








Canada’s Natural Resource Sector Lost $196 Billion in Investment Over 5 Years


Canada's natural resource sector has lost $196 billion in investment between March 2014 and March 2019. See a list of projects included in that amount and highlights of the report done by SecondStreet.org here.




www.canadaaction.ca





Emissions increased for other reasons than resource sector extraction.
Trudeau's plan on climate was a total failure.
Nice words, added taxes, zero effect


----------



## andrewf

I'm really baffled. I'm sure you think it has had no effect, and yet is also a disastrous policy that is destroying the economy. Can't have it both ways!


----------



## sags

Cow farts.......it all comes down to cow farts.

I suspect we have a lot more cows than other countries, so we have a lot more farting cows. Hence a bigger farting cow problem to deal with.

As AOC once quipped...._"we aren’t sure that we’ll be able to fully get rid of farting cows and airplanes that fast."_


----------



## Zipper

Show me the money and I will vote for 'ya.


----------



## sags

Then Trudeau is your guy. After all.......he was born on Christmas Day ! Here comes Santa Claus......here comes Santa Claus....

Hurry......while supplies last.









Amazon.com: Justin Trudeau Fan Coffee Mug, Proud Liberal Lover Gift, Funny Canada Political Present - I Love When I Wake up in The Morning and See Justin Trudeau - 11 oz Coffee Mug White Ceramic Tea Cup : Home & Kitchen


Amazon.com: Justin Trudeau Fan Coffee Mug, Proud Liberal Lover Gift, Funny Canada Political Present - I Love When I Wake up in The Morning and See Justin Trudeau - 11 oz Coffee Mug White Ceramic Tea Cup : Home & Kitchen



www.amazon.com


----------



## sags

Fun fact.....did you know that Justin Trudeau is older than Erin O'Toole ?

The outcome of the election could well be decided by Trudeau's age and experience versus O'Toole's youth and inexperience.


----------



## bgc_fan

damian13ster said:


> You are aware that you can only spend the money on 'green' products under the plan, right?
> Recycling tax is not extra earning. You do not benefit by spending more on carbon intensive products.
> Common misconception, same with public vs private sector workers.
> 
> Basically if you don't spend money on carbon tax by choosing green alternative, you get to choose how to spend the money.
> If you do spend money on carbon tax, you can only use the money on 'green' products.
> Whether it will work or not, I am not sure.
> *What we do know though, is that Liberal plan turned out to be complete failure.
> Prices and emissions both increased*


Let's put it out simply.

Conservative plan - Personal Low Carbon Savings Accounts:
From their policy:
_Canadians will pay into their Personal Low Carbon Savings Account each time they buy hydrocarbon based fuel. They will be able to apply the money in their account towards things that help them live a greener life. That could mean buying a transit pass or a bicycle or saving up and putting the money towards a new efficient furnace, energy efficient windows or even an electric vehicle._

So you buy gas and you get credits in your PLCS account to buy something "green".

2 people, one green, one driving a Hummer.
Green: Gets nothing out of it because they don't buy hydrocarbon based fuel.
Hummer-driver: Gets some of the cost back in form of credit to buy a green product.

I don't see the incentive for the Hummer-driver to change lifestyle. Pretty much status quo, but now gets a bit of a break on it.

Carbon tax.

Both get X amount of money based on carbon tax collected.
Green: Probably come out ahead because doesn't spend much on gas, but there are still going to be other carbon-related costs.
Hummer-driver: Going to be negative as the amount spent on gas is going to outweigh whatever rebate he gets.

After all, your original premise is that if you do green stuff, you should get rewarded.


damian13ster said:


> This way an action of an individual actually has direct and proportional reward for the individual





damian13ster said:


> So what economics of Canada cause increases of carbon emission under Trudeau?


I see you take the correlation equals causation (emissions decrease in US, therefore Trump did something; emissions increase in Canada, therefore Trudeau did something), something that most people don't do. We know Trudeau's carbon tax plan, but why don't you tell us what Trump's plan was? We can compare 2018, and 2019 (carbon tax) where Canada's emissions increased from 729M t to 730M t. Based GHG emissions by sector, it's pretty hard to tell where it's coming from but based on data from environment Canada, it looks like light passenger trucks can account for a portion of the increase. For the US, emissions decreased by 140M t to 4.8G t. Like I said before, the decreased emissions is due to economics, given that coal fired plants are being phased for natural gas. Has nothing to do with policy, unless you can find a policy where Trump was phasing out coal in favour of natural gas power plants.


----------



## sags

Interesting that if "light passenger trucks" account for an increase in emissions, perhaps due to increasing delivery by online retailers, GM is transitioning to build electric delivery vehicles for Fedex and others in their Ingersoll, Ontario Cami manufacturing plant. They previously built the Equinox SUV there.

Perfect timing for GM and the environment perhaps.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Interesting that if "light passenger trucks" account for an increase in emissions, perhaps due to increasing delivery by online retailers, GM is transitioning to build electric delivery vehicles for Fedex and others in their Ingersoll, Ontario Cami manufacturing plant. They previously built the Equinox SUV there.
> 
> Perfect timing for GM and the environment perhaps.


Light trucks = pickups.


----------



## Chrysaphius

Money172375 said:


> Not sure this is a smart move from the CPC. These are serious times and we have our differences, but not sure I would take this approach.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426242355422765056


I always vote my conscience. Maxime Bernier and the PPC, for me.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> I'm really baffled. I'm sure you think it has had no effect, and yet is also a disastrous policy that is destroying the economy. Can't have it both ways!


Of course you can. Once you actually realize the entire conversation is about two effects: on climate and on economy.

On climate: it had no effect on emissions
On economy: it led to price increases, higher taxation


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Trudeau's age and experience


Do you need expertise to print money and make terrorists millioners?


----------



## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> Light trucks = pickups.


I'll also add SUVs. Most are based on light truck platforms, so are considered light trucks. 

Kind of makes sense, as more people are ditching cars for SUVs.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

You should add poll to see how people vote.


----------



## AltaRed

Spouse and I applied tonight for mail ballots. I have no intentions of showing up at a polling place with covid surge 4 going on. That is assuming I can hold my nose enough to vote in the first place, albeit it will not make any difference in our riding. The incumbent likely has a lock on it.

Mail ballot is the way we voted in the last BC election too.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Light trucks = pickups.


And several SUV's.


----------



## Beaver101

Return of Larry, Curly and Moe.


----------



## agent99

AltaRed said:


> Spouse and I applied tonight for mail ballots. I have no intentions of showing up at a polling place with covid surge 4 going on. That is assuming I can hold my nose enough to vote in the first place, albeit it will not make any difference in our riding. The incumbent likely has a lock on it.
> 
> Mail ballot is the way we voted in the last BC election too.


We want to do that. Is there a link to apply? (I guess I should search  but I have a golf game in an hour  ) Weather permitting.


----------



## like_to_retire

AltaRed said:


> Spouse and I applied tonight for mail ballots.


Do you have to provide an affidavit? 

The web site says to _"Provide an affidavit, signed before a person authorized to receive oaths in the province or territory."?
_
ltr


----------



## AltaRed

Not at all. It was an Online application. We are already on the Voter's List with Elections Canada by virtue of ticking off the box every year we file a T1 Return in April.

The Online application asks one to upload a piece of photo ID (JPG, PDF, etc) with current address to be sure the individual is who he/she says he/she is. I uploaded a PDF of our Passport picture page

It took me one minute each to request mail ballots for each of us.





__





We couldn't find that web page (Error 404) / Nous ne pouvons trouver cette page web (Erreur 404)






www.elections.ca


----------



## ian

Middle class voters are so fortunate. By the end of the election no doubt one or more leaders will be promising to eliminate their tax obligations and maximize their Federal transfers. It will be easy street for them. Same for seniors and veterans. Perhaps even for goldfish if the polling is tight towards voting day. 

What it will definitely not be is some half baked, nutty hotline. That was tried in the past...with disastrous results.


----------



## damian13ster

Promises are cheap. They don't cost anything.
Vast majority of them never come to fruition.


----------



## like_to_retire

AltaRed said:


> The Online application asks one to upload a piece of photo ID (JPG, PDF, etc) with current address to be sure the individual is who he/she says he/she is. I uploaded a PDF of our Passport picture page
> 
> It took me one minute each to request mail ballots for each of us.


Thanks, I applied and all went well. 

I really don't want to stand in line in a gymnasium with a whole bunch of people next month when we don't know if this Delta problem will take off by then. They'll assure us it's OK to go vote, but it makes me a bit uneasy. Voting by mail seems like a better idea this time.

Of course it matters not if I vote since there isn't a chance in hell that the Liberal candidate will ever be defeated in my riding, but if I don't vote I can't complain how much I dislike the Liberals..

ltr


----------



## andrewf

It can't be any worse than going to a vaccine clinic. At a clinic you know everyone is unvaccinated, at least voting the other people in line are mostly vaccinated. Though, TBF, the second dose I went for had no one in line (I went late in the day).


----------



## like_to_retire

andrewf said:


> It can't be any worse than going to a vaccine clinic. At a clinic you know everyone is unvaccinated, at least voting the other people in line are mostly vaccinated. Though, TBF, the second dose I went for had no one in line (I went late in the day).


Yeah, but my polling station is sure crowded every time I have to go vote. It's in a big city and lots of people for sure. I usually stand in line for quite some time. Comparing that to vaccines where it was so quick and easy and not many there. But these things are different for everybody I suppose.

ltr


----------



## sags

I wish we could just vote online immediately. I would also like to see a running total posted 24/7 to see how the race was developing.

I think it would be interesting to watch the numbers changing. Heaven knows we need to increase interest in voting among young people.

Our polling station is in our landlord's community centre and it is a decidedly mature neighborhood, but almost everyone voting is over 65 years of age any time I have been there to vote. It is like visiting an old folks home.


----------



## AltaRed

The point is... if you don't have to get into lines to vote, why do so? I'd rather get a ballot in snail mail, fill it out at my liesure and dump it back in the mail slot of our community mailbox.

One doesn't stand in the middle lane of a freeway just because one can.


----------



## Eder

AltaRed said:


> The Online application asks one to upload a piece of photo ID (JPG, PDF, etc) with current address to be sure the individual is who he/she says he/she is. I uploaded a PDF of our Passport picture page


Could you imagine the outrage south of our border if they used this system.
I'm glad we at least verify who cast the ballot.


----------



## Eder

ian said:


> . It will be easy street for them. Same for seniors and veterans. Perhaps even for goldfish if the polling is tight towards voting day.


Well even though Sockboy has billions for every special case in Canada he still said this before we were over a trillion in debt

_*The words Justin Trudeau spoke to veteran Brock Blaszczyk in Edmonton last winter will likely haunt him for the rest of his political career. “They’re asking for more than we are able to give right now,” Trudeau said when asked why he was still fighting veterans groups in court. 



http://brianlilley.com/justin-trudeau-has-lots-of-money-just-not-for-veterans/


*_


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> Could you imagine the outrage south of our border if they used this system.
> I'm glad we at least verify who cast the ballot.


You mean like Texas where all you do is mail in a pdf form?





__





Application for a Ballot by Mail






www.sos.texas.gov


----------



## gibor365

I still don't understand why voters can vote by mail, but cannot vote online (for example via service canada or CRA website)! If I'd like, I could've easily to vote by mail for my mom or MIL  . , but in any case, they always vote Cons


----------



## andrewf

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, but my polling station is sure crowded every time I have to go vote. It's in a big city and lots of people for sure. I usually stand in line for quite some time. Comparing that to vaccines where it was so quick and easy and not many there. But these things are different for everybody I suppose.
> 
> ltr


Even advance polling? Usually a ghost town for me.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> I wish we could just vote online immediately. I would also like to see a running total posted 24/7 to see how the race was developing.
> 
> I think it would be interesting to watch the numbers changing. Heaven knows we need to increase interest in voting among young people.
> 
> Our polling station is in our landlord's community centre and it is a decidedly mature neighborhood, but almost everyone voting is over 65 years of age any time I have been there to vote. It is like visiting an old folks home.


Thankfully, we have a proper democracy and not a game show!


----------



## like_to_retire

andrewf said:


> Even advance polling? Usually a ghost town for me.


I have no idea. I never partook. Why bother, just vote by mail.

ltr


----------



## ian

I really will not have a problem with either main candidate. 

They both have their fair share of good candidates and screwballs. Our fiscal situation limits what they can do. Most voters are in vary narrow band on either side of the center line. At the end of the day both parties will remain in that band.

No concern about the social conservative influence in the Conservative Party. If O'Toole wins they will be pandered to... but put well aside and tolerated much as they are in the Ford Gov't. The difference between Scheer and O'Toole is that O'Toole has the savvy and can be trusted to do exactly that.


----------



## Eder

The thing is O'Toole & JT are the same picture. There is no right of centre choice. As well both are win at all costs in spite of Canada's best interest...I guess I miss Preston shaking things up.


----------



## Chrysaphius

ian said:


> I really will not have a problem with either main candidate.
> 
> They both have their fair share of good candidates and screwballs. Our fiscal situation limits what they can do. Most voters are in vary narrow band on either side of the center line. At the end of the day both parties will remain in that band.
> 
> No concern about the social conservative influence in the Conservative Party. If O'Toole wins they will be pandered to... but put well aside and tolerated much as they are in the Ford Gov't. The difference between Scheer and O'Toole is that O'Toole has the savvy and can be trusted to do exactly that.


That's why I don't vote Conservative anymore. They don't care about us social conservatives. My only alternative is the PPC, even though they have absolutely no chance. Erin O'Toole calls himself a Catholic, too. LOL. He's about as Catholic as Joe Biden.

I suspect Trudeau will win another minority government and this will have been a total waste of time and money.


----------



## Chrysaphius

Eder said:


> The thing is O'Toole & JT are the same picture. There is no right of centre choice. As well both are win at all costs in spite of Canada's best interest...I guess I miss Preston shaking things up.


I loved Manning, too. I miss him.


----------



## andrewf

Chrysaphius said:


> That's why I don't vote Conservative anymore. They don't care about us social conservatives. My only alternative is the PPC, even though they have absolutely no chance. Erin O'Toole calls himself a Catholic, too. LOL. He's about as Catholic as Joe Biden.
> 
> I suspect Trudeau will win another minority government and this will have been a total waste of time and money.


Social conservatives are a small minority of the population. They can either accept it and vote on other issues or retreat to protest parties like PPC or Christian Heritage.


----------



## sags

I miss Pierre Trudeau.


----------



## Chrysaphius

andrewf said:


> Social conservatives are a small minority of the population. They can either accept it and vote on other issues or retreat to protest parties like PPC or Christian Heritage.


Is that supposed to be an insult? Black people are a small minority of the population of Canada, too. What would you tell them to do?


----------



## andrewf

No. But being black isn't an ideology. And considering the interests of racial minorities is not diametrically opposed to the interests of the rest of society, so they are part of the tent.

Social conservatism is unpalatable to the majority of Canadians, so social conservatives will never be a significant part of the governing coalition. The most you can hope for is someone to pay lip service like Harper. Anyone who sincerely promises to act on it will find it hard to attain power.


----------



## Chrysaphius

andrewf said:


> No. But being black isn't an ideology. And considering the interests of racial minorities is not diametrically opposed to the interests of the rest of society, so they are part of the tent.
> 
> Social conservatism is unpalatable to the majority of Canadians, so social conservatives will never be a significant part of the governing coalition. The most you can hope for is someone to pay lip service like Harper. Anyone who sincerely promises to act on it will find it hard to attain power.


Canadians are part of the same tent. We are all Canadians.


----------



## ian

Some social conservatives in the Conservative Party appear to be completely oblivious to the reality of the numbers. Numbers are impartial-neither red or blue.

Here are the numbers on just one aspect. For the past 15 years, at least, consistently 58%-62% percent of voters have polled in favour of a woman's right to choose as it pertains to abortion

The second number....a Party can attain a minority Government position with 35 percent of the votes.

Anyone looking at these two numbers would come to an obvious conclusion as to the policy that any political party that seriously wants to form a Government would propose.

The numbers for same sex marriage, making conversion therapy for minors illegal, and MAID are even more convincing. Most are in the 65-75 plus range. The right to same sex marriage is even more convincing....our Charter all but guarantees that this is a basic right. 

Stephen Harper understood these numbers. He was a realist and he acted accordingly. That is why he was successful. At the end some social conservatives were not happy with Harper. They did not understand the reality of the numbers.

No PM wants to open debate on these issues. Those that do can only loose. Each of them have the capacity to be the kiss of death from a voter perspective. No different than the capital punishment discussion. Andrew Scheer found this out the hard way.

The voters have spoken-time and time again. They want these issues CLOSED. Canadian voters have other issues that are top of mind. Political parties need to speak to the latter, not the former in order to be elected.


----------



## Chrysaphius

ian said:


> Some social conservatives in the Conservative Party appear to be completely oblivious to the reality of the numbers.
> 
> Here are the numbers on just one aspect. For the past 15 years, at least, consistently 58%-62% percent of voters have polled in favour of a woman's right to choose as it pertains to abortion
> 
> The second number....a Party can attain a minority Government position with 35 percent of the votes.
> 
> Anyone looking at these two numbers would come to an obvious conclusion as to the policy that any political party that seriously wants to form a Government would propose.
> 
> The numbers for same sex marriage, making conversion therapy for minors illegal, and MAID are even more convincing. Most are in the 65-75 plus range. The right to same sex marriage is even more convincing....our Charter all but guarantees that this is a basic right.
> 
> Stephen Harper understood these numbers. He was a realist and he acted accordingly. That is why he was successful. At the end some social conservatives were not happy with Harper. They did not understand the numbers that he had to contend with.
> 
> No PM wants to open debate on these issues. Those that do can only loose. Each of them have the capacity to be the kiss of death from a voter perspective. No different than the capital punishment discussion. Andrew Scheer found this out the hard way.
> 
> The voters have spoken. They want these issues CLOSED. Canadian voters have other issues that are top of mind. Political parties need to speak to the latter, not the former in order to be elected.


So basically that whole essay was to say that politicians are politicians. I agree with you completely. However, no issue is ever really closed, is it? I mean, what's today is today and what's tomorrow is tomorrow. That's why I said I vote my conscience.


----------



## andrewf

Indeed. You are free to want those things. But you are bound to be sorely mistaken if you want a party that will share those views and also have a chance of gaining power. That's why we have parties like PPC or Christian Heritage where people can park their votes and never elect a soul. Or, those voters can admit defeat on these files and vote for parties on the basis of policies other than social conservatism. Might as well be pining for the CPC to impose Sharia law for all the likelihood they would do it and gain power on that platform.


----------



## ian

Chrysaphius said:


> So basically that whole essay was to say that politicians are politicians. I agree with you completely. However, no issue is ever really closed, is it? I mean, what's today is today and what's tomorrow is tomorrow. That's why I said I vote my conscience.


No. It is actually more about the priorities of the vast majority of Canadian voters.


----------



## ian

andrewf said:


> Indeed. You are free to want those things. But you are bound to be sorely mistaken if you want a party that will share those views and also have a chance of gaining power. That's why we have parties like PPC or Christian Heritage where people can park their votes and never elect a soul. Or, those voters can admit defeat on these files and vote for parties on the basis of policies other than social conservatism. Might as well be pining for the CPC to impose Sharia law for all the likelihood they would do it and gain power on that platform.


IMHO, the CHP is not really a political party. It more like a collection of church basement coffee clatches. They may take themselves seriously but no one else does.


----------



## Eder

Yes, if you do not agree with the polled majority you should be derided and out cast and not allowed to voice an opinion. What a laugh.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Yes, if you do not agree with the polled majority you should be derided and out cast and not allowed to voice an opinion. What a laugh.


Voice that opinion all you like. It is going to be sidelined. If I cared about the CPC attaining power (I like them to be a credible governing alternative), I would staunchly oppose them taking any social conservative positions. You should too, even if you are a social conservative. The alternative is further rule by even more liberal (and Liberal) parties that are likely to further erode the things you care about. Further drug decriminalization, right to die, etc. At least a mum CPC on social conservatism slows the erosion in what you purport to care about. Have CPC defend conversion therapy and oppose abortion access and you will continue to support a party in the wilderness.


----------



## sags

I listened to a show on Canada Talks on SIrius XM with Peter Mansbridge and guests. I actually discovered the show days ago and really like it.

Mansbridge's own decades of experience and the amazing guests he brings on to the show create a fulsome discussion on the issues of the day.

Today they discussed the difficulty for reporters covering elections in a country so big, and with limited resources for media.

They said the whole election hinges on about 60 ridings or so and those are the ridings that all the politicians hit time and again.....flying over (basically ignoring) much of the rest of the country going back and forth. The reporters are also frustrated by the non-answers from leaders that frustrate all of us.

They say the press conferences are all managed by staff who pick the reporters who get to ask questions. They also found it frustrating that the reporters waste valuable time asking for questions to be repeated in both French and English, as the leaders only have to answer half as many questions that way.

There is always a time limit on the questions, so the more asked the better.









the bridge







www.thepetermansbridge.com


----------



## Eder

I am no social conservative but I respect their opinion.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427655383519162374


----------



## sags

Trudeau does that just to set Conservatives hair on fire.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> I miss Pierre Trudeau.


I understand why.
The 1969 White Paper was a policy paper proposal set forth by the Government of Canada related to First Nations. Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau and his Minister of Indian Affairs, Jean Chrétien issued the paper in 1969.
The White Paper proposed to abolish all legal documents that had previously existed, including (but not limited to) the Indian Act, and all existing treaties.

if Justin T. would follow up on it. I could see myself voting for liberals


----------



## damian13ster

Majority PC win in Nova Scotia. Maybe Canadians are finally waking up how terrible liberals were over a last decade, wherever they ruled.


----------



## Chrysaphius

Eder said:


> I am no social conservative but I respect their opinion.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427655383519162374





andrewf said:


> Indeed. You are free to want those things. But you are bound to be sorely mistaken if you want a party that will share those views and also have a chance of gaining power. That's why we have parties like PPC or Christian Heritage where people can park their votes and never elect a soul. Or, those voters can admit defeat on these files and vote for parties on the basis of policies other than social conservatism. Might as well be pining for the CPC to impose Sharia law for all the likelihood they would do it and gain power on that platform.


Want what things? I never mentioned wanting anything. What are you suggesting I want? Currently, the PPC has no chance of electing their leader, Maxime Bernier, as Prime Minister. I freely admit this. 

My riding is Markham-Stouffville. Chances are that the Liberals will maintain this riding. However, if polls are close, then I would naturally cast my vote for the Conservatives- the lesser of two evils imo. 

I'm pretty confident that Trudeau will end up with another minority government anyway. This election is a waste of time and money.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> I miss Pierre Trudeau.


and I miss Steven Harper


----------



## Chrysaphius

gibor365 said:


> and I miss Steven Harper


Me too.


----------



## MrMatt

Chrysaphius said:


> Want what things? I never mentioned wanting anything. What are you suggesting I want? Currently, the PPC has no chance of electing their leader, Maxime Bernier, as Prime Minister. I freely admit this.
> 
> My riding is Markham-Stouffville. Chances are that the Liberals will maintain this riding. However, if polls are close, then I would naturally cast my vote for the Conservatives- the lesser of two evils imo.
> 
> I'm pretty confident that Trudeau will end up with another minority government anyway. This election is a waste of time and money.


that's why we need instant runoff.

Also, this election could go bad for Trudeau. But realistically it's his best chance for a majority.
The post COVID mess will become obvious to everyone soon, and he'll either either have to start cleaning up, which is politically unpopular. Or continue towards disaster, which at some point will become evident to enough Canadians to have a political impact.


----------



## ian

At this point I certainly would not wager any money on the outcome of the election. Far too early. 

The polls could change, either side could make a huge blunder(s), misread the electorate, or focus on issues that are not top of mind for the majority voters in critical vote capture areas.


----------



## sags

If Justin Trudeau dropped his pants at a press conference and said "look at this".......he might lose the election.

Otherwise, I would bet the farm on a Liberal victory......but not a majority. Unfortunately, the payoff from such a bet wouldn't be worth the risk.

When a football team starts off a game with a 5% chance of winning and a quarterback who never played before....it is all over before the opening kickoff.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> If Justin Trudeau dropped his pants at a press conference and said "look at this".......he might lose the election.
> 
> Otherwise, I would bet the farm on a Liberal victory......but not a majority. Unfortunately, the payoff from such a bet wouldn't be worth the risk.
> 
> When a football team starts off a game with a 5% chance of winning and a quarterback who never played before....it is all over before the opening kickoff.


Think back to 2015. It was supposed to be a slam dunk for Harper. A small majority. Then a minority. Then is is close but Harper will make it. Then the Chris Alexander/Kelly Leitch debacle in early Oct that lasted for two weeks. Literally a gift from the election gods for the Liberals.

Then, on the evening of October 19 Harper became a has been. 

This could happen easily to Justin Trudeau. This will all come down to the talent and the abilities of the senior political advisors and policy managers in each of the two campaigns. And the mood of voters of course. Just as it did in 2015 and 2019.


----------



## Chrysaphius

ian said:


> At this point I certainly would not wager any money on the outcome of the election. Far too early.
> 
> The polls could change, either side could make a huge blunder(s), misread the electorate, or focus on issues that are not top of mind for the majority voters in critical vote capture areas.


Well, I'm calling it early. *Trudeau wins another minority government.* If he loses, or wins a majority, I will come back here and eat crow.


----------



## like_to_retire

Latest CPI released today is up 3.7%.

Up goes inflation and of course increases in interest rates will follow. 

Will Mr. Trudeau still be able to finance out of control spending with debt?


----------



## sags

I am in the camp that inflation is temporary and will fall back.

The spending for financial support did it's job.

Many Canadians deferred mortgage payments, auto loans, credit cards, student loans, and spent the extra "found" money.

Personally we didn't receive a lot of direct support benefits (aside from a couple of small token payments to retirees) but gained a lot in extra income from my wife.

Her income increased by 300% due to increased hours and higher pay and bonuses. We deferred a 0% auto loan for 3 months....because it was free money. We spent a lot of money during the pandemic replacing many of our household goods so that will not be required for the rest of our lives.

Some people didn't pay their rent (bad idea) and some received more in CERB than they would have working. People saved on daycare and employment expenses.

As a result.........people spent the extra money, which in combination with supply chain interruptions drove up the price of goods. There are bubbles in many assets now......like stocks, boats, used vehicles, rvs, sports cards, NFTs, and all kinds of assets.

So what happens now ? The money is spent and people return to reality of their financial situations. They won't have the money to continue spending and in some cases have to pay "catch up" payments. Retailers will slow down as many sales have already been pulled forward.

I predict there will be a short period of inflation, followed by a longer period of deflation. Interest rates may rise temporarily but not for long.

The next government has to prioritize not allowing the economy to go completely flat and allow deflation to run unchallenged.

Given the 2021 budget, the Liberals already understand the challenges going forward.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> If Justin Trudeau dropped his pants at a press conference and said "look at this".......he might lose the election.
> 
> Otherwise, I would bet the farm on a Liberal victory......but not a majority. Unfortunately, the payoff from such a bet wouldn't be worth the risk.
> 
> When a football team starts off a game with a 5% chance of winning and a quarterback who never played before....it is all over before the opening kickoff.


Nova Scotia Liberals thought the same.
They were leading by 26 points in the polls.


----------



## damian13ster

like_to_retire said:


> Latest CPI released today is up 3.7%.
> 
> Up goes inflation and of course increases in interest rates will follow.
> 
> Will Mr. Trudeau still be able to finance out of control spending with debt?
> 
> View attachment 22018


Inflation tax helps debt
It screws over low income and middle-income Canadians.
They just added another tax on low income Canadians through their stupidity. Pay up people!

There are two ways out of this situation:

people run out of money, deflation kicks in, economic stagnation for next decades (imho more likely)
money printers continue running at full speed, devaluation of Canadian dollar, high inflation
The next years won't be pretty. It is up to next government whether they continue irresponsible policies and put Canada into economic dark ages for next 50 years,
or they start acting responsibly, prudently, and a crisis will be significantly shorter


----------



## Mechanic

I think Trudeau has called for a quick election so the Conservatives don't have time to build momentum, and he doesn't have as much time for more bad press. Would be a lot easier and cleaner if we just had two political parties too, would eliminate a lot of the noise and allow Canadians to focus on what is needed going forward.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> The next years won't be pretty. It is up to next government whether they continue irresponsible policies and put Canada into economic dark ages for next 50 years,
> or they start acting responsibly, prudently, and a crisis will be significantly shorter


In your opinion what would a government do to accomplish the suggested goal ?

Raise taxes or cut spending ? Where to raise taxes or where to cut spending ?


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Nova Scotia Liberals thought the same.
> They were leading by 26 points in the polls.


Yes, but they didn't have Erin O'Toole as their leader, or a party complaining about government spending. In fact......just the opposite.

The NS leader is a populist who doesn't exactly espouse conservative ideology. The readers of the tea leaves say the big issue was increasing healthcare funding.....a Provincial issue. That would be more of a message to Doug Ford and Jason Kenney, than to Justin Trudeau.

"For the next four years — and beyond —* I will promise you this: I will give you everything I have to fix health care*. I will give you everything I have to make this a better province.* It won't happen overnight and* *it will cost money*, but if we work together we can get the job done."

If I lived in NS....I might have voted for him because he understands that improving health care requires more money...as I have often posted myself.


----------



## gibor365

Forum Research Inc poll give advantagge to CPC 


https://qc125.com/proj/2021-08-16-forum.pdf



_These voting intention results, if held on election day, would likely yield approximately 140 Tory seats, 126 Liberal seats, 42 NDP seats, and 26 Bloc Quebecois seats. _


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> In your opinion what would a government do to accomplish the suggested goal ?
> 
> Raise taxes or cut spending ? Where to raise taxes or where to cut spending ?


Reform tax system, and cut spending.
Administration costs raised by 100% over 4 years under liberals. That's not sustainable. Cuts are needed. Consultancy fees raised 3x. If you have actual smart people in government the cost there can be cut.
Government hand outs introduced in last 2 years need to be cut out.
Taxes need to be changed.
Carbon tax needs to go. It is useless and it hits poor proportionately worse than the rich.
We need more progressive taxation, we need higher standard deduction.
We need more deductions for investments, and lower deductions for interest rates. 
Corruption laws need to be strenghtened. Trudeau is the first Prime Minister in history to be punished by ethics commissioner. The penalty is laughable though. Corruption needs to lead to jail time and not 200$ fine.
Union monopoly (just like any other monopoly) needs to be outlawed. It will make workplaces much more friendly and cost-efficient.
CMHC needs to be phased out. Rezoning laws and fees associated need to be lowered.
Cost of administration when building a house is absolutely ridiculous.
In that also MLS listing needs to be made more accessible (steps were done in this regard, but there is more to go).
Healthcare system needs to be reformed. System with family doctors is outdated, inefficient, and adds nothing but delays and paperwork.
Centralized network of walk-in health clinics, much higher reliance on teleconferencing would improve efficiency a lot. Walk-in clinics would decrease emergency visits immediately and doctors would be utilized more efficiently.
Much higher focus on diagnostics than delayed treatment.
What was done with diagnostics was criminal - people will die because of it, and costs will skyrocket.
Every Canadian should have an option to simply walk in for a blood test (semi-annually, quarterly, smarter heads than mine need to figure out intervals). 
Higher focus on dietician services. They are expensive, not really accessible, and nutrition is extremely important in preventing necessity for health care system utilization. 

Those are just same ideas that immediately came to mind. There is significantly more that needs to be fixed


----------



## MrMatt

Mechanic said:


> I think Trudeau has called for a quick election so the Conservatives don't have time to build momentum, and he doesn't have as much time for more bad press. Would be a lot easier and cleaner if we just had two political parties too, would eliminate a lot of the noise and allow Canadians to focus on what is needed going forward.


He's also overwhelmingly arrogant and didn't think a "fractured" CPC would be ready.

Also avoiding bad press is essential for Trudeau, he's like Biden, his best chance to win is hide so nobody sees him.


----------



## fstamand

The best outcome will be Oh tool stepping down when Libs get their minority. Who's next? poilievre ?


----------



## damian13ster

fstamand said:


> The best outcome will be Oh tool stepping down when Libs get their minority. Who's next? poilievre ?


O'Toole has a blank slate. He is fairly well-spoken and relatively intelligent (then again, relative to his opposition an average 5th graded is a MENSA member), but unfortunately doesn't seem to be able to build a good campaign team around him. The ad was atrocious. The program is pretty good itself - although too left wing for my liking, and it is very electable platform. Just needs to be able to sell it. I don't have much confidence in his ability to do it - seems like a great guy to actually get to know, but doesn't make good first impression and tidbits that all media is based on.


----------



## sags

fstamand said:


> The best outcome will be Oh tool stepping down when Libs get their minority. Who's next? poilievre ?


There may be a few Conservative Premiers looking for new jobs.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> There may be a few Conservative Premiers looking for new jobs.


Which ones? There doesn't seem to be a single one currently in danger and Conservatives just blown out Liberals in Nova Scotia


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> Which ones? There doesn't seem to be a single one currently in danger and Conservatives just blown out Liberals in Nova Scotia


Polls indicate that in Alberta if an election were held today the Kenney Gov't would be replaced by a Notley NDP majority. But that is today........two years from now it could be completely different.

I do not think that you can judge a national election outcome by the results of a regional Provincial election. The issues are different. Besides, in some Provinces it appears that voters do no want he same brand of Party at the Federal level than the do at the Provincial level. They see advantages in having a healthy conflict between the two levels.

Besides, Provincial Premiers like having a federal whipping boy/girl to move voter's attention away from their own shortcomings.

In Alberta the very last thing that I believe Premier Kenney wants is an O'Toole Conservative Gov't. It would remove, to a large extent, a whipping boy for him to change the channel on voters.

All of a sudden the new Conservative Premier of Nova Scotia could become a candidate in the next Federal Conservative leadership convention (if O'Toole gets less than the current seat count). He is perceived as a winner and a potential dragon slayer.

More importantly it would not align with what I believe are his own political career goals.


----------



## andrewf

Ford doesn't have an easy path to re-election. He may win, or he may get turfed.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Ford doesn't have an easy path to re-election. He may win, or he may get turfed.


Completely agree, I think he's doing a great job, it's unfortunate that most of his plans got sidelined.
I also think his prospects for re-election aren't great.. but that's politics.


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> Polls indicate that in Alberta if an election were held today the Kenney Gov't would be replaced by a Notley NDP majority. But that is today........two years from now it could be completely different.
> 
> I do not think that you can judge a national election outcome by the results of a regional Provincial election. The issues are different. Besides, in some Provinces it appears that voters do no want he same brand of Party at the Federal level than the do at the Provincial level. They see advantages in having a healthy conflict between the two levels.
> 
> Besides, Provincial Premiers like having a federal whipping boy/girl to move voter's attention away from their own shortcomings.
> 
> In Alberta the very last thing that I believe Premier Kenney wants is an O'Toole Conservative Gov't. It would remove, to a large extent, a whipping boy for him to change the channel on voters.
> 
> All of a sudden the new Conservative Premier of Nova Scotia could become a candidate in the next Federal Conservative leadership convention (if O'Toole gets less than the current seat count). He is perceived as a winner and a potential dragon slayer.
> 
> More importantly it would not align with what I believe are his own political career goals.


Your argument has a lot of merit. I think you might be missing some things though. Trudeau is actively sabotaging Alberta.
Look at the child care problem.
After analysis, it turned out that if introduced in Alberta, then only 1/7 children would actually be included and benefit from the program.
For 6/7 it would be status quo.
That's why having an alternative program for child care that helps more families, like CPC is now proposing, is beneficial for Albertan families, and therefore also for Alberta premier


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Completely agree, I think he's doing a great job, it's unfortunate that most of his plans got sidelined.
> I also think his prospects for re-election aren't great.. but that's politics.


IMHO his prospects for re-election aren't too bad as there is no alternative


----------



## andrewf

I am not impressed with our choices in Ontario. I won't vote for Horwath and I am deeply unimpressed with Del Duca.


----------



## Spudd

damian13ster said:


> Reform tax system, and cut spending.
> Administration costs raised by 100% over 4 years under liberals. That's not sustainable. Cuts are needed. Consultancy fees raised 3x. If you have actual smart people in government the cost there can be cut.
> Government hand outs introduced in last 2 years need to be cut out.
> Taxes need to be changed.
> Carbon tax needs to go. It is useless and it hits poor proportionately worse than the rich.
> We need more progressive taxation, we need higher standard deduction.
> We need more deductions for investments, and lower deductions for interest rates.
> Corruption laws need to be strenghtened. Trudeau is the first Prime Minister in history to be punished by ethics commissioner. The penalty is laughable though. Corruption needs to lead to jail time and not 200$ fine.
> Union monopoly (just like any other monopoly) needs to be outlawed. It will make workplaces much more friendly and cost-efficient.
> CMHC needs to be phased out. Rezoning laws and fees associated need to be lowered.
> Cost of administration when building a house is absolutely ridiculous.
> In that also MLS listing needs to be made more accessible (steps were done in this regard, but there is more to go).
> Healthcare system needs to be reformed. System with family doctors is outdated, inefficient, and adds nothing but delays and paperwork.
> Centralized network of walk-in health clinics, much higher reliance on teleconferencing would improve efficiency a lot. Walk-in clinics would decrease emergency visits immediately and doctors would be utilized more efficiently.
> Much higher focus on diagnostics than delayed treatment.
> What was done with diagnostics was criminal - people will die because of it, and costs will skyrocket.
> Every Canadian should have an option to simply walk in for a blood test (semi-annually, quarterly, smarter heads than mine need to figure out intervals).
> Higher focus on dietician services. They are expensive, not really accessible, and nutrition is extremely important in preventing necessity for health care system utilization.
> 
> Those are just same ideas that immediately came to mind. There is significantly more that needs to be fixed


I can't see how the carbon tax hits the poor worse than the rich. The carbon tax is applied per tonne of carbon. The poor are more likely to use public transit than the rich. They are more likely to have a small home which uses less carbon to heat it. They are less likely to have AC. Even in vehicles, the cheapest vehicles out there are generally the most efficient, if we exclude EVs. 

Many of the things you are mentioning about health care are not the federal government's responsibility. Health care is a provincial jurisdiction.

I also don't think administration when building a house/rezoning/MLS are under federal jurisdiction.


----------



## sags

Ford may get re-elected but likely to a minority government. That result would be okay with a lot of voters.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> I can't see how the carbon tax hits the poor worse than the rich.


$10 to a poor person is a lot "more" than $100 to the rich person.




> The carbon tax is applied per tonne of carbon. The poor are more likely to use public transit than the rich.


No, the poor are more likely to live in areas with poor public transit.
Look at property values near the subway vs far from the subway.



> They are more likely to have a small home which uses less carbon to heat it.


My new large house uses approximately the same amount of gas to heat as my older house.



> They are less likely to have AC. Even in vehicles, the cheapest vehicles out there are generally the most efficient, if we exclude EVs.


Sorry that beater V8 is way cheaper than a new Tesla.

To make taxation change behaviour for the rich the level of taxation is far more than most Canadians can afford.
Go ahead quadrouple the price of gas for my car, won't bother me, will totally screw over the family making minimum wage down the street.


----------



## sags

Climate change is an important issue for voters and the Trudeau carbon tax is a good program that is widely accepted.

There was a report today that property insurance companies are creating new models that reflect their liability to the rising cost of climate change claims.

The new models will recognize the inequity in policy premiums between the insured properties in high risk areas and low risk areas.

As it currently exists, people living in low risk areas are subsidizing people in high risk areas.

The new models will raise the premiums for high risk areas and lower them for low risk areas.

Rather than future 10% increases across all policies, the premiums might be reduced or increased for individuals depending on the climate risk rating of the property.

The experts say the changes will reduce the value of property in high risk areas and increase property values in low risk areas.

The end goal is to encourage people to live in low risk areas.

Climate change is no longer just a theoretical challenge. It is a dollars and cents issue now.

A political party that denies the reality, like the current CPC party is heading towards irrelevancy.


----------



## damian13ster

Mr. Matt got it exactly right.


Trudeau is starting to lose unions:
“PSAC supports vaccination requirements for federal workers to ensure the safety of our members in their workplaces, and to protect our communities, but using discipline and termination to enforce them is unacceptable,” said the union, which represents roughly 200,000 public service workers."


----------



## sags

As above.........new apps are being created to inform people of the climate risk for their property. The information will be widely available.

When policyholders ask why their premiums went up 50%......they will be told it is due to their climate risk.

Anyone living in an area considered high to very high risk.....might want to consider selling before the new models are implemented.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Mr. Matt got it exactly right.
> 
> 
> Trudeau is starting to lose unions:
> “PSAC supports vaccination requirements for federal workers to ensure the safety of our members in their workplaces, and to protect our communities, but using discipline and termination to enforce them is unacceptable,” said the union, which represents roughly 200,000 public service workers."


I would think most of the union members support mandatory vaccinations, but the union has to hold it's nose and do it's job for the few holdouts.

They are setting up for the government to offer employment alternatives to people who refuse to be vaccinated.

Perhaps they could work at sparsely populated remote locations. How does counting penguins on Baffin Island sound ?


----------



## ian

How can you have a workplace vaccination requirement without a consequence for those who do not follow the requirement?

I believe that, as an employer, the Government has a duty of care to their employees and to the members of the public that they deal with. No different than any other business. So it is either vax or daily antigen tests.

As a consumer if I have a choice of dealing with a business where vaccination is a condition of employment vs one where it is not I can assure you that all things being equal I would favour the former over the latter.


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> How can you have a workplace vaccination requirement without a consequence for those who do not follow the requirement?
> 
> I believe that, as an employer, the Government has a duty of care to their employees and to the members of the public that they deal with. No different than any other business. So it is either vax or daily antigen tests.
> 
> As a consumer if I have a choice of dealing with a business where vaccination is a condition of employment vs one where it is not I can assure you that all things being equal I would favour the former over the latter.


The unions clearly specified. Weekly rapid testing (I am sure frequency can be negotiated), work from home accommodation where possible, etc.

Basically this:








Notice offering options for federal workers who refuse vaccines was ‘erroneous’: Trudeau - National | Globalnews.ca


Officials confirmed on Aug. 13 that the government is making vaccination mandatory for all workers in the federal public by this fall.




globalnews.ca




Shows they have absolutely no plan and are doing nothing but political posturing - amateurs.


----------



## damian13ster

What a clown. Could have ended the sentence at 'I don't think' and it would be entirely sufficient


----------



## andrewf

^Kind of odd to cut off the response mid sentence.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> ^Kind of odd to cut off the response mid sentence.


Not really. He simply started talking about something else.
Here is the entire conference:





Like I told you. He could have finished the entire sentence at 'I don't think' and it would summarize his entire knowledge on economy and monetary policy.
Kind of scary considering Bank of Canada mandate is to be revised/renewed later this year.
Meanwhile Prime Minister doesn't think about it. Does he even know what monetary policy is and that it does impact the economy? (rhetorical question, we all know the answer)


----------



## andrewf

He goes on to say he is focused on fiscal policy, which is what the federal government directly controls. I don't think we're expecting much change on BoC mandate. I personally would be open to something like NGDP level path targeting, which is a bit of a tweak to inflation targeting. I suspect the BoC is informally following a similar policy to a degree because they seem tolerant of periods of over(under)shooting inflation to offset prior periods that went the other side of the target.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> He goes on to say he is focused on fiscal policy, which is what the federal government directly controls. I don't think we're expecting much change on BoC mandate. I personally would be open to something like NGDP level path targeting, which is a bit of a tweak to inflation targeting. I suspect the BoC is informally following a similar policy to a degree because they seem tolerant of periods of over(under)shooting inflation to offset prior periods that went the other side of the target.


The mandate is literally how government can affect monetary policy, which has extremely significant impact on economy.
And he didn't talk about fiscal policy at all. He literally went into political clichés and nothing more. We will support families, student, affordable housing - yeah, no ****. Everyone says that. No actual plans, and we all know what he did in last 5 years. Affordability is at lowest point it has ever been, inflation is highest in over a decade.
Monetary policy matter and prime minister not giving it a thought is scary. He is an actor, and an unintelligent one - nothing more.


----------



## MrMatt

ian said:


> How can you have a workplace vaccination requirement without a consequence for those who do not follow the requirement?
> 
> I believe that, as an employer, the Government has a duty of care to their employees and to the members of the public that they deal with. No different than any other business. So it is either vax or daily antigen tests.


However that duty of care does NOT extend to denying human rights to people. 

However sometimes they decide that your rights don't matter.

For example I know people with pet allergies, like being in close proximity causes breathing problems.
Yet Seeing Eye Dogs are allowed everywhere.

Even if I have a life threatening allergy, I can't stop a seeing eye dog. Workplace safety etc is irrelevant.

Now think of this, if you've ever had an anaphylactic reaction to a dog, your life is literally at risk if you're exposed to the dog. The law says you can not prohibit access by a seeing eye dog.

Very similar to vaccines, except we know that the current available vaccines do cause death and injury.
Also we know that a vaccination doesn't seem to stop the spread.

For vaccines, I think everyone should be vaccinated, and the government needs to get off their [email protected]#@[email protected]# and let people who want to be vaccinated get it.

That being said, I don't see much public health benefit to vaccination. It isn't going to stop COVID, at best it might reduce the hospital load slightly.


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> That being said, I don't see much public health benefit to vaccination. It isn't going to stop COVID, at best it might reduce the hospital load slightly.


Slightly? Based on Ontario stats, here are the latest numbers:

7-day Average:

Date​Cases​​Hosp.​​ICU​​​1 Dose​2 Dose​1 Dose​2 Dose​1 Dose​2 Dose​As of Aug 19​-50.3%​-86.4%​-57.7%​-95.9%​-67.5%​-94.3%​


Running Average (since August 10):

Date​Cases​​Hosp.​​ICU​​​1 Dose​2 Dose​1 Dose​2 Dose​1 Dose​2 Dose​As of Aug 19​-51.9%​-86.5%​-56.5%​-96.7%​-57.0%​-91.4%​


----------



## ian

Even more frightening is the percentage of hospital covid deaths in the US attributable to unvaccinated people. It is in the high nineties. As is the percentage of hospital admissions of unvaccinated people.

The other side of the coin is that some people who require life saving or live altering operations/procedures cannot get them because many hospitals have cancelled or greatly curtailed elective and non elective surgeries..

Canada is well ahead of the US from a vaccination perspective. 

Another stat....Canada's current covid deaths per million population is sitting at about 37 percent of the US number.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> Slightly? Based on Ontario stats, here are the latest numbers:
> 
> 7-day Average:
> 
> Date​Cases​​Hosp.​​ICU​​​1 Dose​2 Dose​1 Dose​2 Dose​1 Dose​2 Dose​As of Aug 19​-50.3%​-86.4%​-57.7%​-95.9%​-67.5%​-94.3%​
> 
> 
> Running Average (since August 10):
> 
> Date​Cases​​Hosp.​​ICU​​​1 Dose​2 Dose​1 Dose​2 Dose​1 Dose​2 Dose​As of Aug 19​-51.9%​-86.5%​-56.5%​-96.7%​-57.0%​-91.4%​


Unsourced, unexplained numbers prove nothing. I literally have no idea what those numbers mean, or what you're trying to say.

Last August we were getting 100 new cases/day in Ontario, this August we have 500 new cases/day in Ontario.


ontario new covid cases - Google Search



Clearly the vaccination wasn't the silver bullet that is going to stop COVID.


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> Unsourced, unexplained numbers prove nothing. I literally have no idea what those numbers mean, or what you're trying to say.
> 
> Last August we were getting 100 new cases/day in Ontario, this August we have 500 new cases/day in Ontario.
> 
> 
> ontario new covid cases - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the vaccination wasn't the silver bullet that is going to stop COVID.


Here is the raw data from the government that was used to create this data:





COVID-19 Vaccine Data in Ontario - Cases and rates by vaccination status - Ontario Data Catalogue


Please note that Cases by Vaccination Status data will no longer be published as of June 30, 2022. This data set relied on COVID-19 case counts based on molecular testing (e.g. PCR). As of December...




data.ontario.ca









COVID-19 Vaccine Data in Ontario - COVID-19 Vaccine data - Ontario Data Catalogue


As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm. Please note that Cases by Vaccination Status data will no longer be published as of June 30, 2022. Please note that...




data.ontario.ca





It is just converted from numbers of cases/hospitalizations/icu admissions to a relative likelyhood for each type of population based on the numbers of cases and the numbers of population fully/partly/unvaccinated. 

It is saying that if you're fully vaccinated, you're 86% less likely to catch covid than an unvaccinated person, 97% less likely to be hospitalized, and 91% less likely to be admitted to ICU. 

While we have more cases now than we had last August, the majority of them are in the unvaccinated. If you look at the raw data, for yesterday for example, there were 382/46/75 un/partial/fully vaccinated cases. When you consider that around 74% of eligible people are fully vaccinated, the fact that there are so many more cases in the unvaccinated shows that the vaccine works. In fact, the vaccine means you're 86% less likely to catch the disease. 

People are focusing too much on the fact that there are some breakthrough cases and ignoring the fact that they are very few compared to cases in the unvaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> Here is the raw data from the government that was used to create this data:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine Data in Ontario - Cases and rates by vaccination status - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> Please note that Cases by Vaccination Status data will no longer be published as of June 30, 2022. This data set relied on COVID-19 case counts based on molecular testing (e.g. PCR). As of December...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> data.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccine Data in Ontario - COVID-19 Vaccine data - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> As of June 16, all COVID-19 datasets will be updated weekly on Thursdays by 2pm. Please note that Cases by Vaccination Status data will no longer be published as of June 30, 2022. Please note that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> data.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is just converted from numbers of cases/hospitalizations/icu admissions to a relative likelyhood for each type of population based on the numbers of cases and the numbers of population fully/partly/unvaccinated.
> 
> It is saying that if you're fully vaccinated, you're 86% less likely to catch covid than an unvaccinated person, 97% less likely to be hospitalized, and 91% less likely to be admitted to ICU.


Irrelevant to my point, which is that the case load is still increasing a lot.
the vaccine helps, but it *might *not be enough.




> People are focusing too much on the fact that there are some breakthrough cases and ignoring the fact that they are very few compared to cases in the unvaccinated.


You're ignoring the fact that we're getting way more new cases than this time last year.

All I'm saying is "the current vaccines might not be enough to stop COVID19".


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> All I'm saying is "the current vaccines might not be enough to stop COVID19".


Sorry I'm actually saying a bit more.
If the current vaccines aren't going to stop the spread of COVID19, they're really an individual health benefit, not a public health benefit.
So since forcing everyone to be vaccinated is "for their own good', is this ok.
I'd say that risking a persons life with a mandatory vaccination, only hoping to prevent that one person from dying from the disease doesn't seem sufficiently important to override human rights.
It's important to note that Ontario allows you to opt out of "mandatory" vaccines now, and unions, such as the Ontario Nurses have fought (and won) the right not to be vaccinated.


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> Sorry I'm actually saying a bit more.
> If the current vaccines aren't going to stop the spread of COVID19, they're really an individual health benefit, not a public health benefit.
> So since forcing everyone to be vaccinated is "for their own good', is this ok.
> I'd say that risking a persons life with a mandatory vaccination, only hoping to prevent that one person from dying from the disease doesn't seem sufficiently important to override human rights.
> It's important to note that Ontario allows you to opt out of "mandatory" vaccines now, and unions, such as the Ontario Nurses have fought (and won) the right not to be vaccinated.


They are a public health benefit because they decrease the chance of hospitalization and ICU admission by over 90%, which means more capacity for the hospitals/ICUs for other issues.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> They are a public health benefit because they decrease the chance of hospitalization and ICU admission by over 90%, which means more capacity for the hospitals/ICUs for other issues.


Is that worth killing innocent people?


----------



## Spudd

MrMatt said:


> Is that worth killing innocent people?


So far, out of 51.9 million doses, there have been 6 deaths attributable to the vaccine. 

Each year, over 200,000 people are admitted to ICU, and 8/10 of those admissions are urgent. Those people are also innocent, do you want to kill them by not having an ICU bed available for them?


----------



## sags

Back to the election.........and politics in general.

So Trudeau makes a fool of himself with his "she-covery and she-cession" nonsense.

O'Toole becomes a hypocrite pledging to fix government corruption just weeks after being discovered giving contracts to his pals.

Biden completely screws up the Afghanistan withdrawal and gives press conferences looking decidely bewildered.

Trump.......hoping to be the Republican nominee looks drugged up during an interview with Hannity on Fox News.

And then there is Jason Kenney, Doug Ford, Pallister and some others just plodding along making bad decisions.

I don't know if voting even matters anymore as it appears we have a low level of competence in politics these days.

I must say I listened to the new NS Premier the other day. He sounded pretty impressive and refuses to make impulsive decisions.

He also describes himself as a "progressive" conservative, as compared perhaps to some of the other conservative Premiers.

He emphatically stated it is going to take money to fix healthcare in NS and is not apologetic about it. He sounds very pragmatic to me.

Interesting to note that he is also not a member of the Federal Conservative party and will not campaign for or against any of the leaders in the election.

Any chance this guy could move into Federal politics ?


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Back to the election.........and politics in general.
> 
> So Trudeau makes a fool of himself with his "she-covery and she-cession" nonsense.
> 
> O'Toole becomes a hypocrite pledging to fix government corruption just weeks after being discovered giving contracts to his pals.
> 
> Biden completely screws up the Afghanistan withdrawal and gives press conferences looking decidely bewildered.
> 
> Trump.......hoping to be the Republican nominee looks drugged up during an interview with Hannity on Fox News.
> 
> And then there is Jason Kenney, Doug Ford, Pallister and some others just plodding along making bad decisions.
> 
> I don't know if voting even matters anymore as it appears we have a low level of competence in politics these days.
> 
> I must say I listened to the new NS Premier the other day. He sounded pretty impressive and refuses to make impulsive decisions.
> 
> He also describes himself as a "progressive" conservative, as compared perhaps to some of the other conservative Premiers.
> 
> Interesting to note that he is also not a member of the Federal Conservative party and will not campaign for or against any of the leaders in the election.
> 
> Any chance this guy could move into Federal politics ?


So everyone got screwed, I told ya Putin is the best! Lol


----------



## sags

In the most recent polls........

The Liberals dropped a little.......the Conservatives dropped a little......the NDP went up a little.

Maybe Canadians are looking for the least foolish leader ?


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> In the most recent polls........
> 
> The Liberals dropped a little.......the Conservatives dropped a little......the NDP went up a little.
> 
> Maybe Canadians are looking for the least foolish leader ?


No such thing in Canada! This country is doomed anyway!


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> In the most recent polls........
> 
> The Liberals dropped a little.......the Conservatives dropped a little......the NDP went up a little.
> 
> Maybe Canadians are looking for the least foolish leader ?


The NDP polling effect occurs every election, and then when it's time to actually vote they score pretty much as they always do. People come to their senses, thankfully.

ltr


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Is that worth killing innocent people?


People think it is worth killing some kids with COVID to save other kids from suicide*.

*Notionally.


----------



## MrMatt

Spudd said:


> So far, out of 51.9 million doses, there have been 6 deaths attributable to the vaccine.
> 
> Each year, over 200,000 people are admitted to ICU, and 8/10 of those admissions are urgent. Those people are also innocent, do you want to kill them by not having an ICU bed available for them?


So implement NZ style lockdowns.
We have hundreds of vaccinated people getting COVID and getting into hospitals taking up those beds.

If you want to control COVID, it doesn't look like vaccines will do it. 
They need lockdowns, but nobody wants to admit the vaccine isn't cutting it. Over 10% of the Canadian population is legally prohibited from getting vaccinated anyway.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> People think it is worth killing some kids with COVID to save other kids from suicide*.
> 
> *Notionally.



Other people think it's okay to kill kids from suicide or increase child abuse to protect them from COVID.
It's all trade offs, and it's messy and people are going to get hurt no matter what you do.

I think it's wrong to make vaccination a political issue.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> No such thing in Canada! This country is doomed anyway!


I think Canadians would be happy if the leaders just stopped making fools of themselves.

I don't know who they hire as political advisors, but they should get better ones.

She-covery, she-cession............give me a break.

Someone posted a video about an airline pilot telling a passenger to remove her hat that had the word **** written on it, or she would be removed from the flight.

He talked to her, gave her multiple chances and she removed the hat but didn't promise to keep it off during the flight.........so he had her removed.

Immediately..........the Black Lives Matter organization accused the pilot of white privilege and racism.

What madness is the world devolving into. I think....we have supported protests where it was necessary, but don't drag us into the depths of stupidity.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> I think Canadians would be happy if the leaders just stopped making fools of themselves.
> 
> I don't know who they hire as political advisors, but they should get better ones.
> 
> She-covery, she-cession............give me a break.
> 
> Someone posted a video about an airline pilot telling a passenger to remove her hat that had the word **** written on it, or she would be removed from the flight.
> 
> He talked to her, gave her multiple chances and she removed the hat but didn't promise to keep it off during the flight.........so he had her removed.
> 
> Immediately..........the Black Lives Matter organization accused the pilot of white privilege and racism.
> 
> What madness is the world devolving into. I think....we have supported protests where it was necessary, but don't drag us into the depths of stupidity.


Black Lives Matter together with Antifa - 2 most racist organozation in NA right now


----------



## Plugging Along

andrewf said:


> ^Kind of odd to cut off the response mid sentence.


it wasn’t really mid sentence. We were stunned as we wwacthed the whole thing last night. He said that he doesn’t really think about monetary policies. He is focused on families, students, ect. nothing about fiscal or monetary policy. huh? That’s what we all said including my Trudeau loving kids.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> However that duty of care does NOT extend to denying human rights to people.
> 
> However sometimes they decide that your rights don't matter.
> 
> For example I know people with pet allergies, like being in close proximity causes breathing problems.
> Yet Seeing Eye Dogs are allowed everywhere.
> 
> Even if I have a life threatening allergy, I can't stop a seeing eye dog. Workplace safety etc is irrelevant.
> 
> Now think of this, if you've ever had an anaphylactic reaction to a dog, your life is literally at risk if you're exposed to the dog. The law says you can not prohibit access by a seeing eye dog.
> 
> Very similar to vaccines, except we know that the current available vaccines do cause death and injury.
> Also we know that a vaccination doesn't seem to stop the spread.
> 
> For vaccines, I think everyone should be vaccinated, and the government needs to get off their [email protected]#@[email protected]# and let people who want to be vaccinated get it.
> 
> That being said, I don't see much public health benefit to vaccination. It isn't going to stop COVID, at best it might reduce the hospital load slightly.


This is a good example how things cannot be just black and white. Hence, why I am still on fence with mandatory vaccines though I am full support of vaccinated. 

There is a fine balance between person And common rights. My kids had a classmate with some learning challenge. As a result, this other kid wanted to bring the emotional support dog into class, They didn’t give us notice, as most people love dogs. However, my kids had a severe allergic reaction and the school couldn’t give her allergy meds because it wasn’t on our form. I never though of putting allergy to dogs on her form. As a result, the class had to be moved around so my kid wouldn’t be near the dog. We infromed the school thag they needed to give us 2 days notice so my kid could start building up her allergy meds in her body. Ithe kids wanted his dog there more often so we asked for the Kid to be moved to the other class since it was their dog causing all these issues and since he had his dog, my kid should be able to stay near her friends, also the ability to breath is a medical issue too. 

it Was a pain in the arse. The kid ended up not having his dog at school because other kids were allergic too. I have also worked around a seeing eye which I was allergic too, so it ended that they had to separate us in far sides of the office, and put one of us in a closed space. I would okay with people not vaccinated being put in a different space than me, but don’t think that will happen.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> Black Lives Matter together with Antifa - 2 most racist organozation in NA right now


They were a good protest group but are a lousy organization.

That happens to a lot of protests that turn into organizations, as the leaders depend on keeping public interest high to justify their incomes.

There is a woman online who advocates for more funding to present sexual awareness programs in schools. She gets paid to conduct such programs.

Just the way it is in the non-profit world. They are always hustling for more funding and identifying a perceived "crisis" is one way to do it.


----------



## sags

Plugging Along said:


> it wasn’t really mid sentence. We were stunned as we wwacthed the whole thing last night. He said that he doesn’t really think about monetary policies. He is focused on families, students, ect. nothing about fiscal or monetary policy. huh? That’s what we all said including my Trudeau loving kids.


Fiscal policy is the responsibility of the government but monetary policy is best left out of the politician's hands. 

Central banks should be free from political intervention dictating interest rates. If it were up to politicians......interest rates would be negative forever.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> This is a good example how things cannot be just black and white. Hence, why I am still on fence with mandatory vaccines though I am full support of vaccinated.


I'm stronger in support of vaccination than most, I still think pulling AZ was an overreaction to a small risk.
That being said, I'm also a strong supporter of human rights, and support the right to refuse medical treatment.




> I would okay with people not vaccinated being put in a different space than me, but don’t think that will happen.


I'd be okay with putting the people who don't want to be around other people in a different space.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> it wasn’t really mid sentence. We were stunned as we wwacthed the whole thing last night. He said that he doesn’t really think about monetary policies. He is focused on families, students, ect. nothing about fiscal or monetary policy. huh? That’s what we all said including my Trudeau loving kids.


His "monetary policy", is "lottsa spending and handouts".
Inflation, he doesn't care. It's a hidden tax, so there is no political benefit to him doing a good job here.
Either that or he doesn't understand, which might be true, but mostly out of not caring.

Really if he could simply hand out $10k checks to everyone, it would be great politically for him, it's nice and big and visible. Unlike the economic impact of such a move, which is somewhat hidden and indirect.


----------



## sags

Changes to taxes are coming in 2022, to balance the budget.

The obvious targets are a small increase in the HST, changes to capital gain and dividend tax rates, and capping "tax free" withdrawals from TFSAs.

It is easier to get $1 each from 15 million people than $15 million from one.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Changes to taxes are coming in 2022, to balance the budget.
> 
> The obvious targets are a small increase in the HST, changes to capital gain and dividend tax rates, and capping "tax free" withdrawals from TFSAs.
> 
> It is easier to get $1 each from 15 million people than $15 million from one.


Of course.
Plus that 1 person will spend millions fighting to save that $15 million.
The rest of us will barely notice that the government stole yet another cup of coffee from us.


----------



## sags

The TFSA is a good program, but was an outright gift to people with wealth.

Most people struggle to fully fund a single TFSA, while the wealthy load them up for all family members.

So, capping the tax free portion of the TFSA and taxing the balance will re-claim some of the gains by the wealthy.

The wealthy pay more for homes, cars, and other items so "individually" they pay more HST than most people.

The wealthy gain much of their wealth from capital gains, so changes to their taxation will re-claim profits from the wealthy.

Yes.........it will affect everyone, but also takes a baby step towards addressing the redistribution of wealth.

Stealth taxation..........yes, but better that than tax increases that people notice because it has a negative effect on their daily lives.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The TFSA is a good program, but was an outright gift to people with wealth.
> 
> Most people struggle to fully fund a single TFSA, while the wealthy load them up for all family members.
> 
> So, capping the tax free portion of the TFSA and taxing the balance will re-claim some of the gains by the wealthy.
> 
> The wealthy pay more for homes, cars, and other items so "individually" they pay more HST than most people.


The wealthy pay almost all of the tax already.



> The wealthy gain much of their wealth from capital gains, so changes to their taxation will re-claim profits from the wealthy.


And discourage investment, ie job creation.



> Yes.........it will affect everyone, but also takes a baby step towards addressing the redistribution of wealth.


It's not yours, what makes you think you have the right to seize it and give it away?



> Stealth taxation..........yes, but better that than tax increases that people notice because it has a negative effect on their daily lives.


High inflation has a very negative effect on your daily lives. It also harms low income people more.


----------



## bgc_fan

Figure I might as well post a link the NDP platform. Not too much to say, although generally speaking it sounds more of the promises aren't that outlandish. Obvious issue is being able to pay for all of them, but then that's an issue with all parties this time around.








Ready for Better: New Democrats’ Commitments to You


Ready for Better is our vision for what we believe is possible. And it is our commitment to the real results that we’re going to deliver for Canadians.




www.ndp.ca


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Fiscal policy is the responsibility of the government but monetary policy is best left out of the politician's hands.
> 
> Central banks should be free from political intervention dictating interest rates. If it were up to politicians......interest rates would be negative forever.


They should be free from political intervention.
But the politicians should tell the banks what goals they will be pursuing.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Figure I might as well post a link the NDP platform. Not too much to say, although generally speaking it sounds more of the promises aren't that outlandish. Obvious issue is being able to pay for all of them, but then that's an issue with all parties this time around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ready for Better: New Democrats’ Commitments to You
> 
> 
> Ready for Better is our vision for what we believe is possible. And it is our commitment to the real results that we’re going to deliver for Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ndp.ca


But mix in incompetence and really bad ideas (legalize all drugs, no thanks)


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> But mix in incompetence and really bad ideas (legalize all drugs, no thanks)


Really? I thought you were a libertarian bent on the political scale. But where does it say that they are legalizing all drugs?


----------



## afulldeck

sags said:


> The TFSA is a good program, but was an outright gift to people with wealth.
> 
> Most people struggle to fully fund a single TFSA, while the wealthy load them up for all family members.
> 
> So, capping the tax free portion of the TFSA and taxing the balance will re-claim some of the gains by the wealthy.
> 
> The wealthy pay more for homes, cars, and other items so "individually" they pay more HST than most people.
> 
> The wealthy gain much of their wealth from capital gains, so changes to their taxation will re-claim profits from the wealthy.
> 
> Yes.........it will affect everyone, but also takes a baby step towards addressing the redistribution of wealth.
> 
> Stealth taxation..........yes, but better that than tax increases that people notice because it has a negative effect on their daily lives.


Your view of the TFSA is just pure nonsense. The wealthy really do not give two hoots about the TFSA. They have much better ways to support themselves. 

TFSA benefits the working poor and the younger crowd the most. Nearly 1/3 of all TFSA are under 40. Capping the TFSA directly damages the younger generations and their future. Its is one of the few areas that actually help the younger and poor crowd prepare for the future. 









New data from CRA shows Canadians have nearly 300 billion reasons to love their TFSAs


About one third of all TFSA holders are under the age of 40




financialpost.com


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Really? I thought you were a libertarian bent on the political scale. But where does it say that they are legalizing all drugs?


They've been pushing that agenda for years, and it's literally in the platform you just linked to.

I'm not really a libertan, I'm actually a textbook liberal.
I recognize the need for government as a necessary evil.
But they take so much money, nobody even blinks as they give hundreds of millions or even billions away, for little actual benefit to anyone, let alone the taxpayer... it's too much.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> They should be free from political intervention.
> But the politicians should tell the banks what goals they will be pursuing.


That would be political interference.

You raged against Trudeau telling JWR the goals of keeping jobs in Quebec was political interference.

You are consistent only in your inconsistency.


----------



## sags

afulldeck said:


> Your view of the TFSA is just pure nonsense. The wealthy really do not give two hoots about the TFSA. They have much better ways to support themselves.
> 
> TFSA benefits the working poor and the younger crowd the most. Nearly 1/3 of all TFSA are under 40. Capping the TFSA directly damages the younger generations and their future. Its is one of the few areas that actually help the younger and poor crowd prepare for the future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New data from CRA shows Canadians have nearly 300 billion reasons to love their TFSAs
> 
> 
> About one third of all TFSA holders are under the age of 40
> 
> 
> 
> 
> financialpost.com


Most TFSA holders have diddly squat in them. The average TFSA balance is only $20,000 which includes the fully funded wealthy accounts.

The wealthy fully funded and invested their TFSAs from day one........for each eligible family member.

They contain balances much higher than the overall $20,000 average.

If TFSAs were created for retirement incomes........they did a lousy job of it with average balances of only $20,000.

In 2018, of the nearly 15 million Canadians with a TFSA, only 1.4 million contributed their maximum entitled amount.

Tax accountants say the TFSA is one of the ways the wealthy shelter their investments from taxes.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> That would be political interference.
> 
> You raged against Trudeau telling JWR the goals of keeping jobs in Quebec was political interference.
> 
> You are consistent only in your inconsistency.


No, it isn't.
One was illegal and corruption.
Other one is official policy.
Now, if Trudeau passed a law which says 'anyone who gives money to Trudeau family is exempt from corruption laws" then that's policy.
The way he did it is political interference and corruption.

From Bank of Canada website:
"In 2021, the Bank of Canada and the Government of Canada will renew their agreement on Canada’s inflation-control target. First signed in 1991, the agreement is renewed every five years. The periodic review of the agreement provides an opportunity for us to reframe our ongoing research and engage with stakeholders on the economy."


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> That would be political interference.
> 
> You raged against Trudeau telling JWR the goals of keeping jobs in Quebec was political interference.
> 
> You are consistent only in your inconsistency.


Uhh no
The politicians set the rules by which organizations operate, but don't actually interfere with the operation.

The government tells the bank of Canada "Try to focus on keeping inflation in this band". That's what they do.
The government also told the prosecutors to "take companies to court who break laws". That's what they do.
The government shouldn't be interfering with the actual "doing", but they ABSOLUTELY should be setting policy.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Most TFSA holders have diddly squat in them. The wealthy kept them fully funded and invested from day one........for each eligible family member.
> 
> Tax accountants say the TFSA is one of the ways the wealthy shelter their investments from taxes.
> 
> In 2018, of the nearly 15 million Canadians with a TFSA, 1.4 million contributed their maximum entitled amount.


You really think that 5,500 or 6,000 of savings per year is what benefits wealthy?
Is anyone who manages to save that much in entire year considered 'wealthy' by you?
Canadian middle class and lower middle class who manage to save 500$/month are the class that benefits the most from TFSA. Their entire savings can now grow tax free.
For wealthy 6,000$ a year is a chump change


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> They've been pushing that agenda for years, and it's literally in the platform you just linked to.
> 
> I'm not really a libertan, I'm actually a textbook liberal.
> I recognize the need for government as a necessary evil.
> But they take so much money, nobody even blinks as they give hundreds of millions or even billions away, for little actual benefit to anyone, let alone the taxpayer... it's too much.


Where exactly? I'm just trying to find it myself, and not sure under what category it's under. There's this, but it's decriminalization.

_New Democrats believe that there is much more we can do to save lives and support those struggling with opioids. In government, we will declare a public health emergency and commit to working with all levels of government, health experts and Canadians to end the criminalization and stigma of drug addiction, so that people struggling with addiction can get the help they need without fear of arrest, while getting tough on the real criminals - those who traffic in and profit from illegal drugs. We’ll work with the provinces and health professionals to create a safe supply of medically regulated alternatives to toxic street drugs, support overdose prevention sites and expand access to treatment on demand for people struggling with addiction. We will also launch an investigation into the role drug companies may have played in fueling the opioid crisis, and seek meaningful financial compensation from them for the public costs of this crisis._


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Where exactly? I'm just trying to find it myself, and not sure under what category it's under. There's this, but it's decriminalization.
> 
> _New Democrats believe that there is much more we can do to save lives and support those struggling with opioids. In government, we will declare a public health emergency and commit to working with all levels of government, health experts and Canadians to end the criminalization and stigma of drug addiction, so that people struggling with addiction can get the help they need without fear of arrest, while getting tough on the real criminals - those who traffic in and profit from illegal drugs. We’ll work with the provinces and health professionals to create a safe supply of *medically regulated* alternatives to toxic street drugs, support overdose prevention sites and expand access to treatment on demand for people struggling with addiction. We will also launch an investigation into the role drug companies may have played in fueling the opioid crisis, and seek meaningful financial compensation from them for the public costs of this crisis._


That already exists, all those drugs are in the system and available TODAY.

They want them to be a normal easily available across the country.
Solve the illegal drug problem by making them legal, great idea.

Do you know what is killing people today? Medically regulated drugs, ever hear of fentanyl?


----------



## afulldeck

damian13ster said:


> You really think that 5,500 or 6,000 of savings per year is what benefits wealthy?
> Is anyone who manages to save that much in entire year considered 'wealthy' by you?
> Canadian middle class and lower middle class who manage to save 500$/month are the class that benefits the most from TFSA. Their entire savings can now grow tax free.
> For wealthy 6,000$ a year is a chump change


Your right. People who think that TFSA are for the wealthy really don't understand how the wealthy truly make, receive and spend their money. TFSA are really for the little guy...and he/she should used them to their fullest.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> That already exists, all those drugs are in the system and available TODAY.
> 
> They want them to be a normal easily available across the country.
> Solve the illegal drug problem by making them legal, great idea.
> 
> Do you know what is killing people today? Medically regulated drugs, ever hear of fentanyl?


I'm not sure what you are really saying here. And there's a couple of different points.

There's a difference between decriminalization and legalization. Legalization means that you can open a shop up and sell the drugs, i.e. marijuana stores. Decriminalization means that you can't possess, buy or sell the drugs, but rather than arrest you, you get put into the health care system to get things sorted out. It's the Portugal approach and they have one of the lower drug usage rates in the EU. https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/11364/20191724_TDAT19001ENN_PDF.pdf

As for fentanyl and other opiates, it's obvious people aren't getting them from their local pharmacy. Nor are they coming from pharmaceutical companies, so not sure what your point is. Making treatment options more available for addicts would be a way to deal with it. People aren't going to get help if they know they're going to be arrested and put into jail, which is what decriminalization addresses. Traditionally, you'd use methadone to get people off of opiates and making that supply readily accessible to addicts, UNDER SUPERVISION, can help address some of treatment issues. In Vancouver they did a small trial with fentanyl patches. Fentanyl assisted treatment: a possible role in the opioid overdose epidemic? - Substance Abuse Treatment, Prevention, and Policy


----------



## sags

Mr.Matt is showcasing his "liberal" viewpoints..........


----------



## Eder

I would support giving addicts free access to all and any drugs they desire in any quantity. Its the kindest thing we can do to make them happy. The drug problem should then take care of itself in a few years.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> I'm not sure what you are really saying here. And there's a couple of different points.
> 
> There's a difference between decriminalization and legalization. Legalization means that you can open a shop up and sell the drugs, i.e. marijuana stores. Decriminalization means that you can't possess, buy or sell the drugs, but rather than arrest you, you get put into the health care system to get things sorted out. It's the Portugal approach and they have one of the lower drug usage rates in the EU. https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/11364/20191724_TDAT19001ENN_PDF.pdf
> 
> As for fentanyl and other opiates, it's obvious people aren't getting them from their local pharmacy. Nor are they coming from pharmaceutical companies, so not sure what your point is. Making treatment options more available for addicts would be a way to deal with it. People aren't going to get help if they know they're going to be arrested and put into jail, which is what decriminalization addresses. Traditionally, you'd use methadone to get people off of opiates and making that supply readily accessible to addicts, UNDER SUPERVISION, can help address some of treatment issues. In Vancouver they did a small trial with fentanyl patches. Fentanyl assisted treatment: a possible role in the opioid overdose epidemic? - Substance Abuse Treatment, Prevention, and Policy


I'm saying legalizing drugs, ie removing the criminal penalties for possessing and dealing them, is a bad idea.

The Legalization/Decriminalization is a distinction without a difference.
You CAN get legal pharmaceutical grade heroin or cocaine today, in Canada if you have the proper licenses.
If you don't have the proper license, it's illegal.

This is just like pre-legalization marijuanna.

I want treatment, I don't want a flood of dangerous drugs on the streets.
We already have doctors "prescribing" these drugs.








Health Canada overturns ban on medical heroin


Conservative government banned the practice in 2013




www.theglobeandmail.com





So the NDP plan is to maintain the status quo? Or do they want more than the CURRENT standard of medically supervised treatment?

The NDP program isn't about offering medically supervised care, that already exists and is in place today.


The alternative is the NDP isn't educated on the treatment programs available to treat drug addiction in Canada. Which scares me even more. Like, they didn't even bother investigating if their plan is already active?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Mr.Matt is showcasing his "liberal" viewpoints..........


Yes, I am.

Pro choice, pro vax, anti racist, pro free speech and human rights.
Pretty centrist liberal.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> I'm saying legalizing drugs, ie removing the criminal penalties for possessing and dealing them, is a bad idea.
> 
> The Legalization/Decriminalization is a distinction without a difference.
> You CAN get legal pharmaceutical grade heroin or cocaine today, in Canada if you have the proper licenses.
> If you don't have the proper license, it's illegal.
> 
> This is just like pre-legalization marijuanna.
> 
> I want treatment, I don't want a flood of dangerous drugs on the streets.
> We already have doctors "prescribing" these drugs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Health Canada overturns ban on medical heroin
> 
> 
> Conservative government banned the practice in 2013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theglobeandmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the NDP plan is to maintain the status quo? Or do they want more than the CURRENT standard of medically supervised treatment?
> 
> The NDP program isn't about offering medically supervised care, that already exists and is in place today.
> 
> 
> The alternative is the NDP isn't educated on the treatment programs available to treat drug addiction in Canada. Which scares me even more. Like, they didn't even bother investigating if their plan is already active?


Legalization and decriminalization is an important distinction which I've already stated, but if you don't want to believe so, that's your choice. Legalization means I'd be able to set up heroin shops all over the place. But decriminalization would mean that it would still be a crime to do so. Decriminalization would be limited to personal use and small quantities.

This is hardly the status quo. People are still getting jailed for possession of drugs. They talk about expanding the availability for supervised medical care.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Legalization and decriminalization is an important distinction which I've already stated, but if you don't want to believe so, that's your choice. Legalization means I'd be able to set up heroin shops all over the place. But decriminalization would mean that it would still be a crime to do so. Decriminalization would be limited to personal use and small quantities.


It's a distinction without a difference being employed to confuse the debate.

If you have the proper license you can deal heroin today.
It is a crime to sell or posses without the proper license.

If you have the proper license you can sell guns today.
It is a crime to sell or posses a gun without the proper license.



> This is hardly the status quo. People are still getting jailed for possession of drugs.


Yes, because they have illegal substances, I want unlicensed possession of heroin and fentanyl to remain illegal. 
Similarly, though I'm pro gun, I want unlicensed possession of guns to remain illegal.



> They talk about expanding the availability for supervised medical care.


There are absolutely no legislative requirements to increase availability for supervised medical care.
None, a doctor today can prescribe you heroin or cocaine.

The NDP want to make it legal, so that there are more drugs out there.
I don't know why, maybe they see an electoral advantage to getting hardcore drug users on UBI as a powerful voting block.

Legalization/decriminalization is just removing the licensing restrictions to appease recreational users. Or to cut out the medical supervision from the current treatment system we have in place today.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> I would support giving addicts free access to all and any drugs they desire in any quantity. Its the kindest thing we can do to make them happy. The drug problem should then take care of itself in a few years.


Some people's empathy knows no bounds.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> It's a distinction without a difference being employed to confuse the debate.
> 
> If you have the proper license you can deal heroin today.
> It is a crime to sell or posses without the proper license.
> 
> If you have the proper license you can sell guns today.
> It is a crime to sell or posses a gun without the proper license.
> 
> 
> Yes, because they have illegal substances, I want unlicensed possession of heroin and fentanyl to remain illegal.
> Similarly, though I'm pro gun, I want unlicensed possession of guns to remain illegal.
> 
> 
> There are absolutely no legislative requirements to increase availability for supervised medical care.
> None, a doctor today can prescribe you heroin or cocaine.
> 
> The NDP want to make it legal, so that there are more drugs out there.
> I don't know why, maybe they see an electoral advantage to getting hardcore drug users on UBI as a powerful voting block.
> 
> Legalization/decriminalization is just removing the licensing restrictions to appease recreational users. Or to cut out the medical supervision from the current treatment system we have in place today.


Here's the reality, people are addicted, and regardless of any laws, they are getting their drugs. Leaving it criminalized just keeps clogging up the court system and doesn't resolve a thing. It's obviously a losing approach, so we can follow another approach which seems to work. Like I said, Portugal decriminalized drug usage back in 2001 and far from being the drug haven of the world, they have one of the lowest drug usage rates in the world. 

As for prescribing heroin, it seems to be only to deal with those who have a heroin addiction and no other treatments are viable.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Here's the reality, people are addicted, and regardless of any laws, they are getting their drugs. Leaving it criminalized just keeps clogging up the court system and doesn't resolve a thing. It's obviously a losing approach, so we can follow another approach which seems to work. Like I said, Portugal decriminalized drug usage back in 2001 and far from being the drug haven of the world, they have one of the lowest drug usage rates in the world.
> 
> As for prescribing heroin, it seems to be only to deal with those who have a heroin addiction and no other treatments are viable.


Here's the thing, some people like raping, and regardless of any laws, they're going to keep raping. Leaving it criminalized just keeps clogging up the court system and doesn't resolve a thing. It's obviously a losing approach, so we can follow another approach that seems to work.


The problem with your argument wrt to drugs is that there isn't another approach that seems to work.
Sure we're trying them, but most of them are failures, so we should restrict supply.

Also before you quote Portugal, maybe you should educate yourself on it. Many of the strategies they implemented are already in place and active here.
Also, despite decades of these programs in Canada, there is nearly no research on the trade offs and effectiveness of these programs in Canada. 
Finally the NDP isn't talking about "just decriminalization", they're talking about circumventing our current medically supervised treatment system with a significant increase in the availability of drugs OUTSIDE the medically supervised treatment system we have in place.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Here's the thing, some people like raping, and regardless of any laws, they're going to keep raping. Leaving it criminalized just keeps clogging up the court system and doesn't resolve a thing. It's obviously a losing approach, so we can follow another approach that seems to work.


Not the strongest argument, here. Drug use, in and of itself, only harms the welfare and rights of user. It's absurd to equate it with rape. If we imprison people for rape, why not imprison people for selling chewing gum, like Singapore?


----------



## Eder

andrewf said:


> Some people's empathy knows no bounds.


I have some pretty close experience with addicts and addiction, I wont elaborate...I am a realist.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Not the strongest argument, here. Drug use, in and of itself, only harms the welfare and rights of user. It's absurd to equate it with rape. If we imprison people for rape, why not imprison people for selling chewing gum, like Singapore?


I thought people with drug use take up hospital beds at higher rate?
That's enough to violate human rights apparently
Isn't it enough to keep a dangerous substance licensed-use only?


----------



## Eder

andrewf said:


> Drug use, in and of itself, only harms the welfare and rights of user.


Drug use affects all of society...it is the #1 reason for theft, murder,prostitution, homelessness.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> Here's the thing, some people like raping, and regardless of any laws, they're going to keep raping. Leaving it criminalized just keeps clogging up the court system and doesn't resolve a thing. It's obviously a losing approach, so we can follow another approach that seems to work.
> 
> 
> The problem with your argument wrt to drugs is that there isn't another approach that seems to work.
> Sure we're trying them, but most of them are failures, so we should restrict supply.
> 
> Also before you quote Portugal, maybe you should educate yourself on it. Many of the strategies they implemented are already in place and active here.
> Also, despite decades of these programs in Canada, there is nearly no research on the trade offs and effectiveness of these programs in Canada.
> Finally the NDP isn't talking about "just decriminalization", they're talking about circumventing our current medically supervised treatment system with a significant increase in the availability of drugs OUTSIDE the medically supervised treatment system we have in place.


Wow, that was a tortured analogy. Actually, the key to Portugal is that they decriminalized, and that's kind of the key component, treating the addiction as a medical and social issue instead of a criminal issue. From this quote, it doesn't sound like that's what the NDP is saying. It sounds like that's what you think it says. You're focused on the underlined part and take it completely out of context while overlooking the bolded part.

_We’ll work with the provinces and health professionals to create a safe supply of medically regulated alternatives to toxic street drugs, *support overdose prevention sites and expand access to treatment on demand for people struggling with addiction*._


----------



## sags

Start a war on drugs. That should work out well.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> It is easier to get $1 each from 15 million people than $15 million from one.


*Omar Khadr: Canada pays ex-Gitmo detainee who killed US ...*
Jul. 17, 2017 — Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau gave Omar Khadr a big payout (10.5 Canadian dollars) but the terrorist's real victims may never see any of that money.

15 millions barely enough for 1.5 payments


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Wow, that was a tortured analogy. Actually, the key to Portugal is that they decriminalized, and that's kind of the key component, treating the addiction as a medical and social issue instead of a criminal issue. From this quote, it doesn't sound like that's what the NDP is saying. It sounds like that's what you think it says. You're focused on the underlined part and take it completely out of context while overlooking the bolded part.
> 
> _We’ll work with the provinces and health professionals to create a safe supply of medically regulated alternatives to toxic street drugs, *support overdose prevention sites and expand access to treatment on demand for people struggling with addiction*._


You highlighted the important part.
They want to supply even more drugs to addicts with even fewer controls than we have today.

We already have a supply of "medically regulated alternatives", we're using them, this is already happening.
They want to dramatically expand a system that DOESN'T WORK!


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Not the strongest argument, here. Drug use, in and of itself, only harms the welfare and rights of user. It's absurd to equate it with rape. If we imprison people for rape, why not imprison people for selling chewing gum, like Singapore?


Okay, suicide then.

Interestingly they decriminalized it too.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The Conservative platform says that doctors who object to treatments can refuse to refer patients.
> 
> O'Toole says doctors will be required to refer patients.
> 
> Another day..........another reason for Canadians to question exactly what it is that the Conservatives support.


Tell me a single actual problem with that policy?
Seems common sense

And not a single word in a plan about refusing referrals. This was made up by Carolyn Bennett. 
Not a word about it in the platform. Please verify facts before believing Liberal politicians - they tend to lie more often than not.

"Let me be perfectly clear. As a pro-choice leader of this party, I will make sure that we defend the rights of women to make the choice for themselves with respect to their own health. We will make sure abortion services are available from one ocean to the other." 

Seems clear enough


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Omar Khadr: Canada pays ex-Gitmo detainee who killed US ...*
> Jul. 17, 2017 — Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau gave Omar Khadr a big payout (10.5 Canadian dollars) but the terrorist's real victims may never see any of that money.
> 
> 15 millions barely enough for 1.5 payments


Liberals always support terrorism


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Okay, suicide then.
> 
> Interestingly they decriminalized it too.


You're right. We should bring back capital punishment for suicide!


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> You highlighted the important part.
> They want to supply even more drugs to addicts with even fewer controls than we have today.
> 
> We already have a supply of "medically regulated alternatives", we're using them, this is already happening.
> They want to dramatically expand a system that DOESN'T WORK!


Neither does locking people up. And no, it doesn't mean they'll flood the streets with medical-grade heroin in a free for all.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Neither does locking people up. And no, it doesn't mean they'll flood the streets with medical-grade heroin in a free for all.


Sorry, drug dealers belong in jail.
As far as what it "doesn't mean". I don't agree. Their platform doesn't say "maintain the status quo".

It literally says they want to ensure a safe supply of drugs. We have that, so I must assume they want a bigger supply, or an easier to access supply. I don't see how increasing the supply of drugs is going to help reduce drug abuse.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The Conservative platform says that doctors who object to treatments can refuse to refer patients.


Care to identify where that is in the platform?
Or is this just more "sags making [email protected]#[email protected] up"



> O'Toole says doctors will be required to refer patients.


Yes.




__





O’Toole reverses campaign pledge on conscience rights, says doctors must refer patients - National | Globalnews.ca


O'Toole reversed the his stance Friday about his position on conscience rights for health professionals after a promise to uphold them appeared in his party's election platform.




globalnews.ca





Guess what, when I go to my doctor, and ask about something they didn't feel comfortable with, they referred me to someone else.
My dentist referred my kids to a pediatric dentist.
My lawyer referred me to another lawyer for things that he didn't feel comfortable with.

This is the standard professional response.


----------



## sags

The headline you posted confirms what I posted.........thanks.

O'Toole's latest flip flop isn't going over well with the Conservative base, hence his recently acquired nickname........."two face O'Toole".

_Social conservatives have advocated that doctors and nurses with moral or religious objections to a particular procedure shouldn’t have to refer patients for these services, including abortion, assistance in dying or gender reassignment surgery. 

RightNow, a group that opposes abortion, said socially conservative voters expected O’Toole “*to stick with his promise *of respecting conscience rights for health care professionals,” including the referral opt-out. 

Social conservative groups and some Tory candidates remained fixated on *the revised position*, chafing at what they believe to be an encroachment on freedom of conscience.

“O’Toole is wrong and must *walk this back*,” Jack Fonseca, a spokesman for anti-abortion group Campaign Life Coalition, said in an email.
“Medical practitioners should not lose their constitutional rights just because of their profession,” he said, calling *the switch* “catastrophic” and a “grave infringement.”_


----------



## sags

Boo.........fooled ya !


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Omar Khadr: Canada pays ex-Gitmo detainee who killed US ...*
> Jul. 17, 2017 — Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau gave Omar Khadr a big payout (10.5 Canadian dollars) but the terrorist's real victims may never see any of that money.
> 
> 15 millions barely enough for 1.5 payments


There is lots of information on Omar Kadr available without relying on an alt right news media source.

Google....... Canada Supreme Court ruling on the Kadr situation.


----------



## sags

The Toronto Sun is devoting almost their entire front page to anti-Trudeau articles and stories.

So much for "balanced news" from Canada's own Faux News media.

At least they saved some room for half naked women in their Sunshine Girl section.........for their drooling alt right supporters.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> There is lots of information on Omar Kadr available without relying on an alt right news media source


Didn’t know foxnews was alt right
what exactly isn’t true that Palestine-Egyptian person with Canadian passport was doing exactly what in Afghanistan? Throwing grenades at NATO soldiers?
Got good lawyers and screwed Canadian government on 10.5 million dollars


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The headline you posted confirms what I posted.........thanks.


Actually it doesn't.
You lied about the platform.

The platform has exactly 1 statement about abortion. p 134.
"A Conservative Government will not support any legislation to regulate abortion. "


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There is lots of information on Omar Kadr available without relying on an alt right news media source.
> 
> Google....... Canada Supreme Court ruling on the Kadr situation.


Yes there is.
The government gave a convicted terrorist over 10 million dollars, despite having no legal obligation to provide compensation of any type.
Trudeau just loves Islamic terrorists.
Quite honestly I'd rather the government spend $20 million on lawyers than a single penny on that dirtbag.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The Toronto Sun is devoting almost their entire front page to anti-Trudeau articles and stories.
> 
> So much for "balanced news" from Canada's own Faux News media.
> 
> At least they saved some room for half naked women in their Sunshine Girl section.........for their drooling alt right supporters.


That is balanced.
Really it's a question if he's truly evil, or simply incompetent and cruel.


----------



## sags

Kadr was 14 years old when he was forced by his father to join Al Quaeda during a trip to their homeland.

He was part of a group in a battle with US marines, who by the way had invaded Afghanistan, spent 20 years there that has led to the absolute disaster unfolding today.

He was captured and imprisoned at Guantanamo prison in Cuba, where he was tortured for 10 years to make him confess. He wasn't allowed any legal counsel or visitors. He was one of the victims of the "water boarding" techniques the Bush administration were so fond of.

He finally confessed and was found guilty in a kangaroo court. All during this time the CPC government of Stephen Harper were aware of what was going on and provided nothing........but did in fact keep it hidden from the Canadian public. When it was revealed........it was one of the issues that led to Harper's defeat.

There is no evidence that Kadr threw the grenade that injured the soldier, and even if he did he was 14 years old.....a child in Canadian law.

His treatment was reprehensible and displayed the lack of morality of the Harper government.

Kadr was going to win a very large civil suit in Canadian court. The Canadian Supreme Court called his treatment appalling and unacceptable.

Did Kadr throw the grenade or not ? Nobody knows for sure except for him. He was put in the position of being forced to fight for his life.

Don't bother lecturing Canadians on our history, when all you know is what an alt right extremist news source tells you.

There are many other news sources available.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> That is balanced.
> Really it's a question if he's truly evil, or simply incompetent and cruel.


Balanced boobs......Sunshine girls and Erin O'Toole.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> Didn’t know foxnews was alt right
> what exactly isn’t true that Palestine-Egyptian person with Canadian passport was doing exactly what in Afghanistan? Throwing grenades at NATO soldiers?
> Got good lawyers and screwed Canadian government on 10.5 million dollars


What were the Americans and NATO doing in Afghanistan and how did that work out ?

If you want to cast blame.......that would be a good place to start.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> There is no evidence that Kadr threw the grenade that injured the soldier, and even if he did he was 14 years old.....a child in Canadian law.


 You just don't know what the evidence was, you CAN'T know that there was no evidence.

He was a young offender under Canadian law, though this didn't occur in Canadian jurisdiction.



> Kadr was going to win a very large civil suit in Canadian court. The Canadian Supreme Court called his treatment appalling and unacceptable.


No he wasn't
Plus then they could have garnished his winnings to provide for the victims family.



> Did Kadr throw the grenade or not ? Nobody knows for sure except for him. He was put in the position of being forced to fight for his life.


He was found guilty in court.

Yes, he was very unlucky to be born into a family of religious extremists.
But bad parenting doesn't excuse murder.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Sorry, drug dealers belong in jail.
> As far as what it "doesn't mean". I don't agree. Their platform doesn't say "maintain the status quo".
> 
> It literally says they want to ensure a safe supply of drugs. We have that, so I must assume they want a bigger supply, or an easier to access supply. I don't see how increasing the supply of drugs is going to help reduce drug abuse.


How many addicts are given an alternative to black market?


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> He was found guilty in court.


In an American kangaroo court.



https://www.hrw.org/legacy/photos/2008/guantanamo/Omar-Khadr.html#:~:text=The%20US%20has%20accused%20Khadr,support%20for%20terrorism%2C%20and%20spying


.

Khadr was denied any kind of due process and was subjected to repeated torture, abuse, and threats of abuse.

Regardless, dredging up Khadr's settlement is a flimsy attempt to change the channel from issues that are relevant today.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> How many addicts are given an alternative to black market?


Quite a few, and that's why I'm for expanding and improving treatment programs, and access to those programs.

The reality is many people don't want to be treated, that's fine, I believe they have a right to refuse treatment. However I don't want to support their habit by providing drugs outside of the medically supervised environment.

It's important to note that some addicts are given pharmaceutical grade street drugs, as part of their outpatient treatment program. That means they are free to live their life as they see fit, and simply show up for their appointment with health professionals.
It isn't like they're all locked away in an institution.

The only objection I really have with the NDP platform is that they want to legalize unlicensed possession and use of these substances, and increase availability outside the medically regulated space we currently have.

I'm okay with providing these drugs as part of a supervised medical treatment program, and WE ARE DOING THIS TODAY.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Kadr was 14 years old when he was forced by his father to join Al Quaeda during a trip to their homeland.


Omar Khadr (born 1986), son captured by American forces following a 2002 firefight
The politicians Stockwell Day, Bob Runciman and John Cannis were among those in a public outcry calling for the Khadrs' citizenship to be revoked, and for the pair to be deported.
Canadians complained that the Khadrs had "taken advantage of" Canada, living off its social services, while decrying it as a morally corrupted country.
*Computer held by Khadr's sister contains al-Qaeda files, RCMP say
In 2005, following the oldest daughter Zaynab's return to the country, Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) officer Konrad Shourie said, "The entire family is affiliated with al Qaeda and has participated in some form or another with these criminal extremist elements".*








Computer held by Khadr's sister contains al-Qaeda files, RCMP say


The Globe and Mail offers the most authoritative news in Canada, featuring national and international news




www.theglobeandmail.com





In their 2008 report concerning Mahmoud Jaballah, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) stated that Omar and his older brother Abdulkareem attended terror training camps.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> What were the Americans and NATO doing in Afghanistan


9/11
hunting down terrorists group 
Ben Laden and many of his followers were terminated


----------



## sags

Khadr owes nothing to the widow of the marine injured.

It was the US government's responsibility, but they shirked that responsibility just as they have for all their other veterans.

Consider how Trump treated the five star families and military veterans.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Khadr owes nothing to the widow of the marine injured.


The court that awarded the judgement appears to disagree.

But he hurt and killed people, he should be held responsible.
But this really is a dead issue, it isn't like you're going to suddenly realize giving millions to convicted criminals is a bad idea.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Khadr owes nothing to the widow of the marine injured.


The US court disagree 
Tabitha Speer, the soldier's widow, and Layne Morris, who was blinded in the firefight, won a $134 million wrongful-death default judgment against Khadr two years ago in Utah.
*Omar Khadr can't dodge US$134M civil judgement by recanting guilty plea: U.S. court filing








Omar Khadr can't dodge US$134M civil judgement by recanting guilty plea: U.S. court filing


The lawyers are calling on an Alberta court to enforce the judgment against Khadr handed down in Utah in June 2015 in favour of Sgt. Chris Speer's widow




nationalpost.com




*


----------



## sags

That falls into the who gives a **** category.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> That falls into the who gives a **** category.


Because the US court …. ?
Because Canadian court …?


----------



## sags

The Canadian courts have already denied the demands and called them "outrageous". Who cares what a judge in a Utah court room says.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

*Khadr’s Compensation: 71% of Canadians say government made wrong call by settling out of court








Khadr’s Compensation: 71% of Canadians say government made wrong call by settling out of court - Angus Reid Institute


Many say they would have offered apology, but not financial compensation July 10, 2017 – The vast majority of Canadians say the federal government made the wrong decision in settling




angusreid.org




*


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Omar Khadr (born 1986), son captured by American forces following a 2002 firefight
> The politicians Stockwell Day, Bob Runciman and John Cannis were among those in a public outcry calling for the Khadrs' citizenship to be revoked, and for the pair to be deported.
> Canadians complained that the Khadrs had "taken advantage of" Canada, living off its social services, while decrying it as a morally corrupted country.
> *Computer held by Khadr's sister contains al-Qaeda files, RCMP say
> In 2005, following the oldest daughter Zaynab's return to the country, Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) officer Konrad Shourie said, "The entire family is affiliated with al Qaeda and has participated in some form or another with these criminal extremist elements".*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Computer held by Khadr's sister contains al-Qaeda files, RCMP say
> 
> 
> The Globe and Mail offers the most authoritative news in Canada, featuring national and international news
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theglobeandmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In their 2008 report concerning Mahmoud Jaballah, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) stated that Omar and his older brother Abdulkareem attended terror training camps.


We live in kangaroo country where terrorists getting millions of taxpayers money


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> 9/11
> hunting down terrorists group
> Ben Laden and many of his followers were terminated


Bin Laden was captured/killed in Pakistan. Not Afghanistan.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> Bin Laden was captured/killed in Pakistan. Not Afghanistan.


He should have instead fled to Canada, would have been paid handsomely.

Back in 2001, the US was responding to the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington, in which nearly 3,000 people were killed. Officials identified Islamist militant group al-Qaeda, and its leader Osama Bin Laden, as responsible. 
Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, under the protection of the Taliban, the Islamists who had been in power since 1996.
When they refused to hand him over, the US intervened militarily, quickly removing the Taliban and vowing to support democracy and eliminate the terrorist threat.


----------



## sags

And they failed miserably.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Khadr’s Compensation: 71% of Canadians say government made wrong call by settling out of court
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Khadr’s Compensation: 71% of Canadians say government made wrong call by settling out of court - Angus Reid Institute
> 
> 
> Many say they would have offered apology, but not financial compensation July 10, 2017 – The vast majority of Canadians say the federal government made the wrong decision in settling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> angusreid.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Yes, Canadians wanted the case to go to open court to expose the extent of the Harper government's involvement.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

sags said:


> Yes, Canadians wanted the case to go to open court to expose the extent of the Harper government's involvement.


*Many say they would have offered apology, but not financial compensation*


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> Sorry, drug dealers belong in jail.


I agree with this. I'm talking about those who have some for personal use. BTW, decriminalization means that drug dealers still go to jail.


----------



## damian13ster

Why do you guys even bother?

Sags lies, makes up things, excuses 16 year old terrorists.....
You really can't discuss any facts with him.
He just makes them up as they go and when faced with facts says they are 'irrelevant'
Imaginary statement in a well-known platform that is easily verified to be a complete fabrication - Sags approves
Court decision for compensation for death from a hands of a terrorist - bush court.

Really, it explains why he votes Liberal and also explains why they still manage to get support. If someone lives in la-la-land complete detached from reality then they are ideal support group for a politician.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

damian13ster said:


> Sags lies, makes up things, excuses 16 year old terrorists.....
> You really can't discuss any facts with him.
> He just makes them up as they go and when faced with facts says they are 'irrelevant'
> Imaginary statement in a well-known platform that is easily verified to be a complete fabrication - Sags approves


Thanks for letting me know. I found the “magic button“.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> He should have instead fled to Canada, would have been paid handsomely.
> 
> Back in 2001, the US was responding to the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington, in which nearly 3,000 people were killed. Officials identified Islamist militant group al-Qaeda, and its leader Osama Bin Laden, as responsible.
> Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, under the protection of the Taliban, the Islamists who had been in power since 1996.
> When they refused to hand him over, the US intervened militarily, quickly removing the Taliban and vowing to support democracy and eliminate the terrorist threat.


Occupying Afghanistan turned out to be a bad idea. The US has shown subsequently that it can disrupt terrorist organizations with strikes and indirect support, rather than attempting full-scale occupation.


----------



## sags

Ukrainiandude said:


> Thanks for letting me know. I found the “magic button“.
> View attachment 22040


Good..........no peeking allowed.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Why do you guys even bother?
> 
> Sags lies, makes up things, excuses 16 year old terrorists.....
> You really can't discuss any facts with him.
> He just makes them up as they go and when faced with facts says they are 'irrelevant'
> Imaginary statement in a well-known platform that is easily verified to be a complete fabrication - Sags approves
> Court decision for compensation for death from a hands of a terrorist - bush court.
> 
> Really, it explains why he votes Liberal and also explains why they still manage to get support. If someone lives in la-la-land complete detached from reality then they are ideal support group for a politician.


Why don't you guys confine your nonsense to the alternative conspiracy threads.........where I fear to tread ?

You will be safe there among like minded friends.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The Canadian courts have already denied the demands and called them "outrageous". Who cares what a judge in a Utah court room says.


More unsubstaniated claims by sags.
Sometimes there is a nugget of use from the stuff you say, but you make so many false claims, it's clearly a waste of time.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Felt sorry for the cop, he almost cried on the last minute.





Why is terrorist Omar Khadr allowed to fly? Is it a special favour that Trudeau did for him? Khadr belongs in jail.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Occupying Afghanistan turned out to be a bad idea. The US has shown subsequently that it can disrupt terrorist organizations with strikes and indirect support, rather than attempting full-scale occupation.


Occupation is pretty much impossible, without significant infringement on human rights.

That's why they try "nation building", but it's hard, and the government and power structures must be compatible with the culture. Different cultures aren't just "the same with a different language". 








Culture Influences Brain Function, Study Shows


People from different cultures use their brains differently to solve the same visual perceptual tasks, researchers report in the first brain imaging study of its kind. Psychological research has established that American culture, which values the individual, emphasizes the independence of...



www.sciencedaily.com





That's why it works some times and not others.


----------



## Zipper

It is very entertaining when I see sags yanking all these chains. And it is the same posters that fall for it time after time.


----------



## damian13ster

Zipper said:


> It is very entertaining when I see sags yanking all these chains. And it is the same posters that fall for it time after time.


It isn't falling for anything. His personal opinions are his.
When he spreads lies though, multiple people provide actual facts.
That's how it should be so people reading don't let misinformation spread.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> It isn't falling for anything. His personal opinions are his.
> When he spreads lies though, multiple people provide actual facts.
> That's how it should be so people reading don't let misinformation spread.


It's not like it's even debatable points. sags posts outright fabrications.

I got suspended for posting facts, he can post all the disinformation he wants... and he's still here.


----------



## Zipper

MrMatt said:


> It's not like it's even debatable points. sags posts outright fabrications.
> 
> I got suspended for posting facts, he can post all the disinformation he wants... and he's still here.


I rest my case!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Another Justin.T failure.
*76% of Justin Trudeau’s 2015 Syrian Refugees UNEMPLOYED in 2019*








 76% of Justin Trudeau's 2015 Syrian Refugees UNEMPLOYED in 2019


Less than ONE WEEK after taking office in October of 2015, Trudeau announced the plan to take in the 25,000 refugees, a plan that was met with criticism immediately. Read more




capforcanada.com





Among Syrian refugees aged 20 to 59 who arrived in 2015 and 2016, 24% of males and 8% of females were employed on Census Day (May 10). This compared with 39% of male and 17% of female refugees from other countries.

Fact: Justin Trudeau made the Syrian refugee intake the “prize package” of the Liberal government’s political platform during their first year in office.

Outcome: These refugees are the most under-productive group of refugees shipped to Canada by way of a United Nations-enforced program of Third World refugee intake.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> Another Justin.T failure.
> *76% of Justin Trudeau’s 2015 Syrian Refugees UNEMPLOYED in 2019*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 76% of Justin Trudeau's 2015 Syrian Refugees UNEMPLOYED in 2019
> 
> 
> Less than ONE WEEK after taking office in October of 2015, Trudeau announced the plan to take in the 25,000 refugees, a plan that was met with criticism immediately. Read more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> capforcanada.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was telling it from day 1.... They are coming here for free money!
> Among Syrian refugees aged 20 to 59 who arrived in 2015 and 2016, 24% of males and 8% of females were employed on Census Day (May 10). This compared with 39% of male and 17% of female refugees from other countries.
> 
> Fact: Justin Trudeau made the Syrian refugee intake the “prize package” of the Liberal government’s political platform during their first year in office.
> 
> Outcome: These refugees are the most under-productive group of refugees shipped to Canada by way of a United Nations-enforced program of Third World refugee intake.


And I bet that 90%+ of independant immigrants employed! I personally don't know any normal iimigrant who didn't find job in 6 months after coming to Canada!
Majority of Syrian refugees are pseudo-refugees... exactly same is happenning in Germany! There were several articles (even in our Liberal media) about it! They were saying that if they don't get free appartments in Berlin or Bavaria they would go back to Syria. This is insane!


----------



## gibor365

For many years there is a civil war in Eastern Ukraine (doesn't matter whose fault it is), but I've never heard Canada accepted any refugee fro this region! There is no PR in this, they are white and majority of them won't vote Liberals.... however, Trudeau admires Syrians


----------



## fstamand

To me, elections in general are won by leaders with charisma. O'Toole has none, and Canadians that are not biased to a specific party can see through his play.

There's going to be alot of butthurt with this election outcome.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> For many years there is a civil war in Eastern Ukraine


It is called Russian hybrid warfare. 








Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





In December 2015, Russian Federation President Vladimir Putin admitted that Russian military intelligence officers were operating in Ukraine.
OSCE monitors further stated they observed vehicles transporting ammunition and soldiers' dead bodies crossing the Russian-Ukrainian border under the guise of humanitarian aid convoys.
Similar to Crimea.
Despite numerous media reports and statements by the Ukrainian and foreign governments describing the unmarked troops as Russian soldiers, government officials concealed the identity of their forces, claiming they were local "self-defence" units over whom they had no authority.

Russian officials eventually admitted to their troops' presence.


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> For many years there is a civil war in Eastern Ukraine (doesn't matter whose fault it is), but I've never heard Canada accepted any refugee fro this region! There is no PR in this, they are white and majority of them won't vote Liberals.... however, Trudeau admires Syrians


I don't think it was a "civil war". It was an invasion.


----------



## sags

The Harper government's failure to aid the Syrian refugees was a big factor in their defeat.

Trudeau immediately enacted plans to bring the refugees to Canada. They settled in quickly and are building futures in Canada.

What Trudeau has proven during his tenure in office, is that he could accomplish many of the issues that seemed to baffle the Conservatives.

Merge and increase child care benefits, restructure the CPP, restructure the EI program, move the OAS back to age 65, pass gun control legislation....and more.

Canadians recognize all the accomplishments of the Trudeau led government and that is why they will easily win re-election for another term.

The choice for Canadians is clear in this election. The differences are stark on issues like abortion, gun control, justice, immigration, MAID, financial supports.

We can continue to improve life in Canada or fall back to the bitterness and ineptitude of the past conservative regime.

I am confident Canadians will make the wise choice.


----------



## ian

Not in the least bit concerned about an O'Toole win. Or a Trudeau win for that matter. The die is cast on many of these issues in the form of voter opinions, polling. There will be differences for certain.

The reality is that both Parties will govern with an eye to job one-re-election and job two- comfortable landings for their key supporters.

The one difference is that I believe that O'Toole will have a much larger challenge within his own party than he will with Canadian voters should he be elected.

Only those who expected significant shifts either to the right or to the left will be disappointed. It will be ho hum for the rest of us IMHO with perhaps the odd bump along the way. The sky will not fall no matter what the outcome.

There may well be some stark differences between the two on a number of issues however I suspect those are largely differences between their respective party members.

I believe that both leaders are smart enough to govern for the majority of voters, not the majority of their party members. Straddling the fence does not work either as Scheer learned the hard way.

Whatever choice Canadian make will be fine in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## sags

I agree....but O'Toole is stuck dragging around the albatross of the hard core supporters, which includes a significant number of his MPs.

Hence, he is trying to nominate candidates with a more supportive view of the social issues Canadians are concerned about.

I don't think the CPC is going to survive in present form. They need to split again and separate the wheat from the chaff.

Trudeau has no such impediment. He enjoys the full support of the Liberal Party. That could change.......but not for this election.

The question I ponder now is who will replace O'Toole.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> I agree....but O'Toole is stuck dragging around the albatross of the hard core supporters, which includes a significant number of his MPs.
> 
> Hence, he is trying to nominate candidates with a more supportive view of the social issues Canadians are concerned about.
> 
> I don't think the CPC is going to survive in present form. They need to split again and separate the wheat from the chaff.
> 
> Trudeau has no such impediment. He enjoys the full support of the Liberal Party. That could change.......but not for this election.
> 
> The question I ponder now is who will replace O'Toole.


If O'Toole wins the election he will probably take his que from Stephen Harper. He will first order cases of duct tape and some big sticks. He will make a point of rewarding well those who follow the PMO line. He will punish, very quickly and very openly, any of his MP's who fall out of line with this. Those who are rewarded will be rewarded in terms of position and in financial ways.

O'Toole's biggest challenge may be finding and/or uncovering competent/able Cabinet material while still maintaining a balance of representation within the Cabinet. Those at the far right will probably not be considered for fear they could cause major embarrassment down the line. The last thing he needs is another Derek Sloan, Rob Anders, or Maxime Bernier coming out of the closet so to speak.

As in the Harper days, no Conservative MP will be allowed to even burp in the House unless that burp has been approved by the PMO. Hence the duct tape.

O'Toole surely knows by know if he spends any time suffering those who believe that getting re-elected is secondary to anything else his party will suffer. He saw how the Party and the voters banished Scheer to the history books in very, very short order.

This is a blood sport. It is all about gaining power and keeping power. The rest is noise level for the sake of us luckless voters and taxpayers.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> I don't think it was a "civil war". It was an invasion.


This is BS, as majority of population who live in the area support Donetsk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic. Also population in those area predominantly Russians. But it’s not the point I raised... why Canada accepts many thousands of Syrian pseudo refugees and none of Eastern Ukrainian? Because they are white and not Tal PR?!


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> The Harper government's failure to aid the Syrian refugees was a big factor in their defeat.
> 
> *Trudeau immediately enacted plans to bring the refugees to Canada. They settled in quickly and are building futures in Canada.*
> 
> What Trudeau has proven during his tenure in office, is that he could accomplish many of the issues that seemed to baffle the Conservatives.
> 
> Merge and increase child care benefits, restructure the CPP, restructure the EI program, move the OAS back to age 65, pass gun control legislation....and more.
> 
> Canadians recognize all the accomplishments of the Trudeau led government and that is why they will easily win re-election for another term.
> 
> The choice for Canadians is clear in this election. The differences are stark on issues like abortion, gun control, justice, immigration, MAID, financial supports.
> 
> We can continue to improve life in Canada or fall back to the bitterness and ineptitude of the past conservative regime.
> 
> I am confident Canadians will make the wise choice.


Again sags spreads lies! As *76% of Justin Trudeau’s 2015 Syrian Refugees UNEMPLOYED in 2019* (and link was provided).

And 
*Majority of Canadians oppose Trudeau's plan to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees over in just six weeks: poll*








Majority of Canadians oppose Trudeau's plan to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees over in just six weeks: poll


Of those who oppose the Liberal government's refugee plan, the majority (53 per cent) cite tight timelines as their main concern




nationalpost.com


----------



## gibor365

From what I read, all media are telling that the ONLY reason Trudeau declared this election, because he want to get majority and become a real Dictator!
They don't allow us to play volleyball in community centers because of the virus , but voting in schools would be fine, right?! This is idioticy! 

*Nearly two-thirds of Canadians don’t want a federal election right now*









Nearly two-thirds of Canadians don’t want a federal election right now, Mainstreet poll says


Justin Trudeau’s Liberals meanwhile hold the largest share of voter support, at 35 per cent. The Conservatives follow at 26 per cent, and the NDP is in third at 16 per cent.




www.thestar.com





I have a small hope that Canadians will punish this part-time drama teacher!


----------



## sags

So the poll says 35% of Canadians don't want an election.

It also says the Liberals have 35% support and the Conservatives only 26%.

If all those polls are right........Trudeau gets a huge majority.


----------



## sags

The Syrians were refugees desperately trying to leave the war in Syria. They had nowhere to go.

The Russians invaded Crimea and the Ukranians that wanted to leave went to the rest of Ukraine.

Canadians welcomed the Syrians with open arms and despite all the dire warning from the Harper government.......the refugees settled in quickly.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> It also says the Liberals have 35% support and the Conservatives only 26%.


Yeah that's an old poll.

I look at Nanos today and it seems closer.














__





Nanos research | CTV News | Nanos polls


CTV News Nanos research top headlines, breaking Nanos polling, national poll results and Nanos Canada survey results




www.ctvnews.ca





ltr


----------



## bgc_fan

Speaking of drug policies, it looks like those lefty Conservatives are going to try the treat the opiate crisis as a health matter rather than a criminal matter. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-opioids-addiction-mental-health-1.6149408

_"As prime minister, I will treat the opioid epidemic as the health crisis that it is," he said.
"That means that our focus should be on helping people with addictions get the help they need to recover."
The promises, part of the party's election platform book, include $325 million over three years to create 1,000 new treatment beds and build 50 recovery centres in communities across the country. _


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> So the poll says 35% of Canadians don't want an election.
> 
> It also says the Liberals have 35% support and the Conservatives only 26%.
> 
> If all those polls are right........Trudeau gets a huge majority.


Sure ... but last elections Cons won by popular vote


----------



## damian13ster

Since elections were called.
But like above poster said. Conservatives won popular vote in previous election so it isn't like getting most votes among Canadians matters that much.


----------



## sags

Popular votes percentages are interesting but meaningless in Federal elections.

Popular voting based on votes for local MPs is also not particularly illuminating.

If there was a separate vote category for the PM.........it would be interesting to see the voting results.

Although according to the latest polls, that is one area where Trudeau has a big lead on O'Toole.

It appears more people support the Conservative Party than support O'Toole as the best choice for PM.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> View attachment 22045
> 
> 
> Since elections were called.
> But like above poster said. Conservatives won popular vote in previous election so it isn't like getting most votes among Canadians matters that much.


The conservatives love the current FPTP electoral system. They can't rightly get salty if they lose despite having a higher popular vote. They oppose the idea that the popular vote should mean anything!


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Popular votes percentages are interesting but meaningless in Federal elections.
> 
> Popular voting based on votes for local MPs is also not particularly illuminating.
> 
> If there was a separate vote category for the PM.........it would be interesting to see the voting results.
> 
> Although according to the latest polls, that is one area where Trudeau has a big lead on O'Toole.
> 
> It appears more people support the Conservative Party than support O'Toole as the best choice for PM.





https://angusreid.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021.07.29_federal_leaders_mail_vote.pdf



Singh would win if it was just PM vote apparently.
Trudeau is least trusted with highest 'would be terrible PM' by quite wide margin.
But that comes with name recognition.
Other two still have issues with name recognition so their numbers will change

*







*
Bc is an interesting one. Atlantic provinces are head-scratching. They are terribly mismanaged, suffer for it, and still vote for those responsible for mismanagement


----------



## gibor365

I always had impression that in Atlantic provinces lime mostly sags-minded people


----------



## diharv

sags said:


> So the poll says 35% of Canadians don't want an election.
> 
> It also says the Liberals have 35% support and the Conservatives only 26%.
> 
> If all those polls are right........Trudeau gets a huge majority.


Can you not read? The poll says two thirds of Canadians don't want an election. That is not 35%. Two thirds see this for what it is, a blatant power grab that JTidiot is masquerading as a pat on the back for how he did so great handling the pandemic. It would be fitting if his arrogance leads to his undoing.


----------



## fstamand

damian13ster said:


> https://angusreid.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021.07.29_federal_leaders_mail_vote.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Singh would win if it was just PM vote apparently.
> Trudeau is least trusted with highest 'would be terrible PM' by quite wide margin.
> But that comes with name recognition.
> Other two still have issues with name recognition so their numbers will change
> 
> *
> View attachment 22046
> *
> Bc is an interesting one. Atlantic provinces are head-scratching. They are terribly mismanaged, suffer for it, and still vote for those responsible for mismanagement


Yup Maritimers are poorly managed -- because they did vote cons at last two provincial election.


----------



## fstamand

diharv said:


> Can you not read? The poll says two thirds of Canadians don't want an election. That is not 35%. Two thirds see this for what it is, a blatant power grab that JTidiot is masquerading as a pat on the back for how he did so great handling the pandemic. It would be fitting if his arrogance leads to his undoing.


Ahem, harpy did the exact same thing.


----------



## fstamand

gibor365 said:


> I always had impression that in Atlantic provinces lime mostly sags-minded people


Did you ever even visit? Friendliest people on earth. Maritimers are very social, helpful, with amazing values. Maybe plan a visit before writing gibberish.


----------



## Chrysaphius

Money172375 said:


> Not sure this is a smart move from the CPC. These are serious times and we have our differences, but not sure I would take this approach.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426242355422765056


I don't know why this added those above quotes. Have any of you noticed any lawn signs, or any election signs anywhere? I am in Markham, Ontario, and I haven't seen any lawn signs or signs to vote for this candidate or another, and the election was called a while back now.


----------



## Chrysaphius

james4beach said:


> If you're in a position of power (like a boss or manager) then this is a really scummy thing to do. You would be pressuring / forcing your employees to agree with your political views, and implicitly punishing those who have beliefs you don't like.
> 
> If you're just a "nobody" then no harm, though.


I'd just say I would vote Conservative for a free lunch and then vote however the heck I want.


----------



## Chrysaphius

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah that's an old poll.
> 
> I look at Nanos today and it seems closer.
> 
> View attachment 22044
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nanos research | CTV News | Nanos polls
> 
> 
> CTV News Nanos research top headlines, breaking Nanos polling, national poll results and Nanos Canada survey results
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ltr


This seems accurate. 338 has the Liberals in the lead between 2.8 points.


----------



## sags

I thought the 2021 budget was the Liberal election platform, but now I read that Trudeau hasn't announced their platform yet.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> I thought the 2021 budget was the Liberal election platform, but now I read that Trudeau hasn't announced their platform yet.


Well, he has told us that he doesn't think about those sorts of things.

ltr


----------



## ian

sags.....the current poll, the poll from a month ago, and the one from two months ago could be meaningless.

There is only one poll that will count. Not only that, it will very much depend the polling by region, not by the country.

Where we live everyone always expects a majority Conservative Gov't no matter what. Most only look at the polls from their own regional perspective or from their social group.

I have no idea who will form the next Government. I suspect minority but who knows. And it could very easily be the Party with fewer actual votes than the Opposition Party. It happens and it has happened to both Liberals and Conservatives in the past.

Politicians in Canada call an election when they think the timing is good for them. End of. Makes no difference if they are Conservatives or Liberals. They are the same when it comes down to this. The goal is to stay in power no matter what.

I am waiting to see what might happen if neither Party gains a majority and who will form the Government. It may not be the Party with the most seats. It could be the Party with the lesser amount of seats but with the support of one or more of the other Parties to form a Government. There will be lots of howling but that is how our system works. This is the interesting bit for me.

The spin off from this could be a very tricky period for either Party to move forward with a leadership contest should one of the party leaders resign for whatever reason-personal decision or party revolt. Not so easy to do in a teetering minority situation when the then Gov't could pull the plug at any moment and leave the Opposition (whichever Party) leaderless and very much divided.


----------



## damian13ster

US has Russian disinformation and fake-news
Canada has Liberal Party disinformation and fake-news.








Twitter flags Liberal campaign video featuring O’Toole as ‘manipulated media’ - National | Globalnews.ca


Twitter's policy states they would need reason to believe that the video, or the context in which its presented, "are significantly and deceptively altered or manipulated."




globalnews.ca





Liberals just realizing it won't be a cakewalk after all so they rely on manipulation, lies, and smear-campaign.
They are better funded and have less spine too so fact-checkers better get ready.


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> US has Russian disinformation and fake-news
> Canada has Liberal Party disinformation and fake-news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twitter flags Liberal campaign video featuring O’Toole as ‘manipulated media’ - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Twitter's policy states they would need reason to believe that the video, or the context in which its presented, "are significantly and deceptively altered or manipulated."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liberals just realizing it won't be a cakewalk after all so they rely on manipulation, lies, and smear-campaign.
> They are better funded and have less spine too so fact-checkers better get ready.


Better funded? My understanding is that the Conservatives are currently the Party with the larger war chest.

I believe that it is incredibly naive to actually believe that one Party is as pure as the driven snow, above any falsehoods or disinformation ,while the other is at the opposite end of the spectrum.

From my perspective they can both get down and wallow in the mud and the misinformation when the situation calls for it if it is to their advantage.


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> Better funded? My understanding is that the Conservatives are the Party with the large war chest.


Better funded than Russian hackers also spreading misinformation and fake-news.

But Conservatives aren't better funded at all. Liberals are using entire budget, your taxes as their war chest. Just look at the behavior, announcement, and travel schedule of ministers in month prior to elections.


----------



## sags

It is good to be King.

The power to govern is the penalty that Conservatives pay to have their alt right supporters tagging along with them.


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> Better funded than Russian hackers also spreading misinformation and fake-news.
> 
> But Conservatives aren't better funded at all. Liberals are using entire budget, your taxes as their war chest. Just look at the behavior, announcement, and travel schedule of ministers in month prior to elections.


Really....you seriously don't think the Conservatives did this when they were in power???

This is par for the course for any Government that is in power prior to calling an election. Liberal, Conservative, NDP, provincial or federal. They use every resource at their disposal.


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> Really....you seriously don't think the Conservatives did this when they were in power???
> 
> This is par for the course for any Government that is in power prior to calling an election. Liberal, Conservative, NDP, provincial or federal. They use every resource at their disposal.


I never claimed that.
just responded to your comment about war chest.

Misinformation and fake-news comparable to Russian hacker disinformation coming from deputy prime minister is a low ethical standard though. Still a step up from corruption of prime minister though


----------



## sags

The full answer from O'Toole supports Chrystia Freeland's assertion that he would introduce private healthcare.

He spends over 2 minutes explaining his position why he would support private healthcare.

Is O'Toole spreading "fake news" about himself ?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The full answer from O'Toole seems to support Chrystia Freeland's assertion that he would introduce private healthcare.
> 
> He spends over 2 minutes explaining his position and the answer is yes......he would support private healthcare.


Did you see the spot with the fabrication?
It implied something completely different.

I understand you love to spread fake-news and have long distance relationships with facts, but this is way too much.
Social media has extremely high bar when it comes to misinformation on liberal side (they even allow Taliban propaganda). And Freeland cleared that bar with meters to spare with the fabrication


----------



## afulldeck

If I could be god of the "Election" I would do the following: 

a) make voting mandatory
b) make voting public
c) make the winning party and its voting members are the sole taxpayers, everyone else gets a freebie for 4 years. 

That type of suffrage would test your beliefs....and pocket books


----------



## like_to_retire

afulldeck said:


> If I could be god of the "Election" I would do the following:


I would only have one rule.

a) To get a voter card you have to take a test.

ltr


----------



## sags

O'Toole explained his position for over 2 minutes, and you point to a momentary glitch in the video as proof that they fabricated the whole video ?

The "private healthcare" movement is fraught with problems that are never discussed by those who promote it.

First, almost every visit to the ER requires an array of diagnostics and testing to narrow down the problem from a wide range of possibilities.

Say someone goes to the ER with abdominal pain, that could be caused by the pancreas, liver, gallbladder, stomach ulcer, bacteria, virus, tumor, aortic artery...

The diagnosis may require blood tests, echocardiogram, EKG, CT scan, MRI scan or other tools to narrow down the source of the pain.

A privately owned clinic would not have access to all those tools and trained professionals, so they would refer people to the ER.

It would be a costly useless extra step in the care. We would be paying private clinics to refer people to the ERs.

Even a sprained ankle would require X rays. If all it takes is for a doctor to talk to you or look at you, that could be done over the internet, but would be rare.

Without setting up mini-hospitals, I don't really see the value in privatized healthcare.

Sure.......people could get an earlier diagnosis, but that doesn't speed up the treatment in any way.

There are already long wait times and lineups for treatment and adding patients at a faster pace doesn't speed up the care.

A specialist isn't going to rush you into their office ahead of all their other patients in line because you went to a private clinic.

If you want to improve healthcare......put badly needed money into the system.

The Conservatives just won in NS on the promise of better universal healthcare and the new Premier said it will cost more money.

Everyone understands the healthcare system is challenged, but some refuse to acknowledge the solution is more funding.

The election results in NS should send a warning to all the other Premiers about what their citizens value most.


----------



## damian13ster

Yeah, money for investment.

There are two different ways to spend money:

keep increasing operating costs and waste
invest in better infrastructure, systems, fees for firing useless staff and administration.

The former is a waste, useless, and won't improve healthcare despite added money
The latter will take more money up front, but will decrease operating costs, efficiency, and result in better system.

Since we are in money forum, the discussion is between doing same thing that doesn't work, just for more money,
or making capital investment to improves process and decrease operating cost by increasing efficiency.

Latter is a very good idea. The former is just setting bigger pile of money on fire.


----------



## ian

sags...the wait time to get an MRI in Alberta is weeks, perhaps months. The wait time at a private MRI clinic is days.

My spouse requred an MRI in a Kuala Lumpur hospital. She was about to decline because she thought we would be there for days. Her mistake. It was scheduled within two hours.

From my perspective I see no reason why we cannot have a combination of public and private health care services...all funded in the same way by through the health care system. It is far less less expensive and much more efficient on a per treatment basis to run a private MRI clinic 18 hours a day vs one in a high cost hospital environment. Bill the health care service, not the patient.

Provinces are already experimenting with these types of approaches. Absolutely nothing wrong if it reduces cost and wait times, is covered by the provincial plans, and enhances our health care experience.

We each got both of our Pfizer shots at our local pharmacy. It was easy to register and fast. Much faster that going to a public health care clinic and standing in line. This is just one more example of great pubic/private health care partnership. In the past we our flu shots at Costco. Next month DW will get her second Shringrix vaccine shot at Costco. Surely these examples are better or more efficient than going through our public care system providers.


----------



## gibor365

fstamand said:


> Did you ever even visit? Friendliest people on earth. Maritimers are very social, helpful, with amazing values. Maybe plan a visit before writing gibberish.


And who says that sags is not social?! Lol
I was talking about political views, if you didn’t understand....


----------



## andrewf

afulldeck said:


> If I could be god of the "Election" I would do the following:
> 
> a) make voting mandatory
> b) make voting public
> c) make the winning party and its voting members are the sole taxpayers, everyone else gets a freebie for 4 years.
> 
> That type of suffrage would test your beliefs....and pocket books


This is, of course, insane.


----------



## gibor365

ian said:


> sags...the wait time to get an MRI in Alberta is weeks, perhaps months. The wait time at a private MRI clinic is days.
> 
> My spouse requred an MRI in a Kuala Lumpur hospital. She was about to decline because she thought we would be there for days. Her mistake. It was scheduled within two hours.
> 
> From my perspective I see no reason why we cannot have a combination of public and private health care services...all funded in the same way by through the health care system. It is far less less expensive and much more efficient on a per treatment basis to run a private MRI clinic 18 hours a day vs one in a high cost hospital environment. Bill the health care service, not the patient.
> 
> Provinces are already experimenting with these types of approaches. Absolutely nothing wrong if it reduces cost and wait times, is covered by the provincial plans, and enhances our health care experience.
> 
> We each got both of our Pfizer shots at our local pharmacy. It was easy to register and fast. Much faster that going to a public health care clinic and standing in line. This is just one more example of great pubic/private health care partnership. In the past we our flu shots at Costco. Next month DW will get her second Shringrix vaccine shot at Costco. Surely these examples are better or more efficient than going through our public care system providers.


In Ontario waiting time is 4-5 months! Mix of private and public healthcare would shorten waiting time in public ones. 
But for people like sags , 100% public healthcare is a “ holy cow”. They feeder wait and suffer, but that everyone will be in the same boat! Jealousy!


----------



## sags

_sags...the wait time to get an MRI in Alberta is weeks, perhaps months. The wait time at a private MRI clinic is days. 

Y_es, I understand that more diagnostic centres would speed up that initial part of the process.......but what happens beyond that contact point ?

The person has a test and if necessary their doctor refers them to a specialist. So they get put on the waiting list to see the specialist.

If everyone gets a "sped up" diagnostic test......that won't shorten the waiting lists.

You finally get to see a specialist and need surgery. Then what ?

They are only allotted X amount of operating room hours and so you are put on the operating room waiting list by the specialist.

The system needs to be expanded from start to finish or all you do is contribute to larger blockages n the overall system.

I view the healthcare system like a supply distribution chain. There is no sense putting more trucks on the road if there is nowhere to take the products.

I have yet to be shown how an early diagnosis at a private clinic would lead to a faster surgery........than people already on the list for a similar condition.

In reaity it would be...yea, you need heart surgery but so do a lot of people ahead of you who have been waiting for months for the same procedure.


----------



## gibor365

As per latest Nanos poll, Aug 22, the difference between Libs and Cons is just 1.1%! Maybe we have a chance kick out Trudeau *** 😜


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> In Ontario waiting time is 4-5 months! Mix of private and public healthcare would shorten waiting time in public ones.
> But for people like sags , 100% public healthcare is a “ holy cow”. They feeder wait and suffer, but that everyone will be in the same boat! Jealousy!


So you go to a private clinic and the testing shows you need surgery.

Then what do you expect to be able to do...jump in front of other patients to get access to the surgeon and operating room ?

The public doesn't build and fund for hospitals so people with money can jump to the front of the line.

There is already too much of that priority BS going on with celebrities and athletes..........and people don't like it when they are waiting for treatment.

Sorry.....but paying for your own diagnostic test only provides you with a copy of the test results.......and not much more beyond that.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> _sags...the wait time to get an MRI in Alberta is weeks, perhaps months. The wait time at a private MRI clinic is days.
> 
> Y_es, I understand that more diagnostic centres would speed up that initial part of the process.......but what happens beyond that contact point ?
> 
> The person has a test and if necessary their doctor refers them to a specialist. So they get put on the waiting list to see the specialist.
> 
> If everyone gets a "sped up" diagnostic test......that won't shorten the waiting lists.
> 
> You finally get to see a specialist and need surgery. Then what ?
> 
> They are only allotted X amount of operating room hours and so you are put on the operating room waiting list by the specialist.
> 
> The system needs to be expanded from start to finish or all you do is contribute to larger blockages n the overall system.
> 
> I view the healthcare system like a supply distribution chain. There is no sense putting more trucks on the road if there is nowhere to take the products.
> 
> I have yet to be shown how an early diagnosis at a private clinic would lead to a faster surgery........than people already on the list for a similar condition.
> 
> In reaity it would be...yea, you need heart surgery but so do a lot of people ahead of you who have been waiting for months for the same procedure.


Sags...my spouse was diagnosed with a fistula, a bleed in her brain from an artery. The wait time for the requisite MRI was two months. He specialist recommend an ASAP MRI. She paid $800 for one at a private clinic. Four days later.

The MRI was sent to her specialist who recommended surgery ASAP and referred her to the neuro surgeon at a local hospital. A week later she was in the OR theatre.
The neuro surgeons told her post op that waiting any longer could have been fatal. She was apparently a walking time bomb.

There are always excuses for not doing something but they seldom outweigh the reasons to actually do something. This includes public heath care.
It is the difference between having a glass half empty vs. a glass half full outlook. 

Years ago the medical profession and pharmas presented lots of reasons why not to establish universal health care in Canada. Fortunately our politicians looked at all of the reasons to establish it rather than the reasons not to.

Just think for a moment of where we would be today if had been determined that covid vaccination shots in Canada should only by administered by public health in public health facilities??????


----------



## ian

delete


----------



## sags

That is good.......but it also means someone else had their surgery cancelled, which happens all the time.

What you illustrate is what I said was what some expected to happen. Get an earlier diagnosis of a problem and jump to the head of the line.

Many people on waiting lists are also "time bombs" and the doctors can only do what they can to evaluate the patients most in need of care.

Your wife was deemed an emergency and was saved, but someone further down the line may have had their wait time extended just a day too long.

Triaging patients to decide who lives and who dies is not something doctors want or should be doing. They want to save everyone as best they can.

To do that we need to spend the appropriate funding to support that goal.


----------



## afulldeck

andrewf said:


> This is, of course, insane.


What part is insane? Making people responsible for the decisions they make? Or making decision for people who don't believe what you might believe?


----------



## bgc_fan

ian said:


> Sags...my spouse was diagnosed with a fistula, a bleed in her brain from an artery. The wait time for the requisite MRI was two months. He specialist recommend an ASAP MRI. She paid $800 for one at a private clinic. Four days later.


Here's my take on the matter. Whenever people talk about privatizing health care, it seems that MRI examples are brought up. To me, access to an MRI is functionally not too much different than private diagnostic labs that do blood work, ECGs, etc. While it's important, it's a bit different than having primary or emergency care health services being provided on a payment basis.

The other consideration is that the existence of private MRI clinics does mean that there is something off with the health care system. Mainly the fact that for whatever reason, the government isn't providing enough resources to take on the existing demand. It could be that the initial capital outlay and operational costs are pretty high and what the provincial government would reimburse is much less than $800 per scan. Would it be a better system if the government simply paid these clinics directly a negotiated "bulk" rate, but the providers would be "approved" clinics that you can be recommended to go to if you needed a MRI? All the while you don't pay anything out of pocket?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> That is good.......but it also means someone else had their surgery cancelled, which happens all the time.
> 
> What you illustrate is what I said was what some expected to happen. Get an earlier diagnosis of a problem and jump to the head of the line.
> 
> Many people on waiting lists are also "time bombs" and the doctors can only do what they can to evaluate the patients most in need of care.
> 
> Your wife was deemed an emergency and was saved, but someone further down the line may have had their wait time extended just a day too long.
> 
> Triaging patients to decide who lives and who dies is not something doctors want or should be doing. They want to save everyone as best they can.
> 
> To do that we need to spend the appropriate funding to support that goal.


So what do you suggest?
ian's spouse should be left to die?
Never have any diagnostics done not to get in line in front of another person (who clearly didn't have same urgency and delay wasn't life-altering)?
Early and accurate diagnostics is crucial for any health care system.
Since politicians and administrators getting fat on our taxes aren't capable of providing it better, faster, and cheaper then private sector, then private sector should help people out. People like ian's spouse would die if left in the hands of government. And I imagine it is hardly an isolated incident.

I think bgc got it right. If private sector can provide the service cheaper, better, and faster than government, then the service should be outsourced.
And that doesn't mean cost has to be on an individual. It can be outsourced using tax money


----------



## sags

How many "emergency delays" and cancelled operations would negatively affect the outcomes for all those people on the waiting list.

Keep filling the openings for the operating room and the waiting list would never move. Many people do die while on waiting lists.

A friend of my wife had surgery cancelled while she already admitted and ready to go. She was rescheduled a month later.

You are saying the system is fine.......the doctors can triage patients because they know who is going to live and who would die from a delay.

The doctors can treat the most critical patients and just keep pushing the less critical patients off into the future.

That is not a viable solution. Why don't we just fund the healthcare system so they can move more people effectively through the "entire" system.

More hospitals, more operating rooms, more doctors and nurses, more equipment...........more funding.

Our city has grown by hundreds of thousands of people and we have 1 less hospital than we used to have.

As the population grows and ages, we are going to need more of everything in healthcare.


----------



## damian13ster

What's your solution?
Letting people who need urgent care die, so that people who don't need urgent care have their procedure at pre-determined time rather than couple of days/weeks later.
Maybe if left to die like you are suggesting, people can make a choice to go abroad for a procedure rather than be left to die by Canadian government?


----------



## sags

What day will a heart patient with clogged arteries die ? What about a cancer patient with a growing tumor ? When do they die ?

Triaging patients is not an exact science and doctors aren't always making the perfect decisions, despite the fact they try their best.

My solution is to invest in a healthcare system that addresses the needs of a growing and aging population.


----------



## sags

Here is a novel idea.........how about we ask the doctors and nurses involved what they think should be done ?


----------



## damian13ster

Investment without reform is a waste of money.
You will get fat friends of politicians get even fatter on taxpayer money.
nothing will improve. We have been there, we have done that.
There are countries who spend less for better results. We need to learn from them.
Not give even more money to administrators, unions, and politicians to waste.
Extra funding is fine, but it needs to be spent in the smart way. It isn't.
Canadian health care system is archaic. Utilization of family doctors is not optimal. Diagnostics sucks. Utilization of new technology and resources is non-existent. Until those problems are fixed, health care system won't get better and any single dollar more added to it without reform will be another dollar lit on fire.

Spending 300 dollars for shitty service isn't any better than spending 250 dollars on shitty service.
Doctors and nurses aren't supply chain specialists.
You don't ask amazon warehouse worker how to run multi-trillion IT company.


----------



## sags

It is all Provincial jurisdiction anyways and Trudeau should only transfer funding if the Provinces pledge to spend it on healthcare only.

A couple years from now Doug Ford and Jason Kenney will be selling shoes at Foot Locker, so changes can be made then.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> So you go to a private clinic and the testing shows you need surgery.
> 
> Then what do you expect to be able to do...jump in front of other patients to get access to the surgeon and operating room ?
> 
> The public doesn't build and fund for hospitals so people with money can jump to the front of the line.
> 
> There is already too much of that priority BS going on with celebrities and athletes..........and people don't like it when they are waiting for treatment.
> 
> Sorry.....but paying for your own diagnostic test only provides you with a copy of the test results.......and not much more beyond that.


If I need surgery and I think it’s urgent, I should be able to pay for it and do it in private clinic in Canada, without going to US or Cuba


----------



## Beaver101

^ In that case, your treating doctor or surgeon at the hospital can move to the USA.


----------



## sags

The wealthy go to the US for private treatment. The wannabee wealthy stay at home and complain because they can't afford the cost in the US.


----------



## Eder

We need private & public health care. If you want a hip replacement that should be private, if you have a heart attack that should be public. Our public health care is bogged down with people using it for optional care.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> It is all Provincial jurisdiction anyways and Trudeau should only transfer funding if the Provinces pledge to spend it on healthcare only.
> 
> A couple years from now Doug Ford and Jason Kenney will be selling shoes at Foot Locker, so changes can be made then.


Kenney has a very large, absolutely gold plated MP pension. He won't be selling shoes. He may well be selling something considerably more odious, less useful, but much more financially rewarding as an employee or principal of a lobby firm.

Ford....well he can go back to licking labels. Assuming he settles the lawsuit with his former SIL.


----------



## sags

As of today's poll numbers.

Trudeau announced billions more in health care spending today. O'Toole needs to step up his game.

34% Probability of the Liberals winning a majority.

54% Probability of the Liberals winning the most seats but not a majority 

11% Probability of the Conservatives winning the most seats but not a majority 

1% Probability of the Conservatives winning a majority


----------



## Ukrainiandude

It’s crazy to say that the unvaccinated put the vaccinated at risk. It flies in the face of all the ‘science’ that this fascist claims to base his decisions on. It’s only about dividing Canadians and his own power trip.

__
http://instagr.am/p/CSznuNJFpSh/


----------



## sags

Nice jacket......very jazzy. People have noticed.









Trudeau's Jazzy Leather Jacket Is Back & He Doesn't Seem To Care That It's August


Heat warnings are in place in parts of Canada right now, Justin!




www.narcity.com


----------



## sags

Erin O'Toole's jacket.............boring old man jacket. I got a couple of those in my closet, but I don't got one like JT has.........and I want one bad.


----------



## andrewf

ian said:


> Sags...my spouse was diagnosed with a fistula, a bleed in her brain from an artery. The wait time for the requisite MRI was two months. He specialist recommend an ASAP MRI. She paid $800 for one at a private clinic. Four days later.
> 
> The MRI was sent to her specialist who recommended surgery ASAP and referred her to the neuro surgeon at a local hospital. A week later she was in the OR theatre.
> The neuro surgeons told her post op that waiting any longer could have been fatal. She was apparently a walking time bomb.
> 
> There are always excuses for not doing something but they seldom outweigh the reasons to actually do something. This includes public heath care.
> It is the difference between having a glass half empty vs. a glass half full outlook.
> 
> Years ago the medical profession and pharmas presented lots of reasons why not to establish universal health care in Canada. Fortunately our politicians looked at all of the reasons to establish it rather than the reasons not to.
> 
> Just think for a moment of where we would be today if had been determined that covid vaccination shots in Canada should only by administered by public health in public health facilities??????


And to say only rich people can afford an MRI is crazy. Many poor people have expensive data plans and iPhones. I'd rather not be dead than have a fancy phone.


----------



## Chrysaphius

sags said:


> The wealthy go to the US for private treatment. The wannabee wealthy stay at home and complain because they can't afford the cost in the US.





Eder said:


> We need private & public health care. If you want a hip replacement that should be private, if you have a heart attack that should be public. Our public health care is bogged down with people using it for optional care.


Agreed.


----------



## damian13ster

Liberals down to 32.5% in latest NANOS poll - lower than their 2019 result.
NDP and PPC gaining.
Realistically, the best chances for Trudeau now is 4th wave so he can hide in the basement.
People not finding out just how incompetent he is every single time he opens his mouth might have him squeak through the election - Biden tactic.
Then again, it can also lower turnout among his base so who knows

The Liberals’ narrowing lead comes as O’Toole has seen his support as the preferred candidate rise from 17.7 per cent on Aug. 12 to 24.0 per cent in the most recent survey. He trails Trudeau’s support of 32.7 per cent, but the gap between them has narrowed, as Trudeau sat at 35.6 per cent on Aug. 12.

“Those preferred prime minister numbers are significantly up for Erin O’Toole,” said Nanos. “Most of his pickup was from undecided people.”

The polling trends show that Liberal hopes for a majority government are fading ahead of the vote on Sept. 20, a date fast approaching in a short 36-day campaign.

The results showed the NDP with 20.8 per cent ballot support, which is about even from 20.7 per cent on Aug. 12, while Green Party support has declined from 7.9 per cent to 5.1 per cent. The Bloc Quebecois have 6.1 per cent support, down from 6.3 per cent, while the People’s Party are at 3.3 per cent, having gained from 1.9 per cent on Aug. 12.


----------



## diharv

It's easy to announce more billions in healthcare spending when you don't give a **** who or how it's going to get paid for, or if it will get paid for, which it won't.


----------



## damian13ster

diharv said:


> It's easy to announce more billions in healthcare spending when you don't give a **** who or how it's going to get paid for, or if it will get paid for, which it won't.


Fake-news Trudeau is getting desperate. There will be a lot of announcement with billions now.
Canadians seem to be onto him though.
He won by a landslide in two categories:

most likely to have hidden agenda
most likely to say anything to get elected.


----------



## Chrysaphius

In a dead-heat O'Toole could probably use some of us PPC voters after all.


----------



## Eder

I have decided to vote in this election after Trudeau visited Calgary. Ordered my mail in ballots last week.


----------



## Chrysaphius

Eder said:


> I have decided to vote in this election after Trudeau visited Calgary. Ordered my mail in ballots last week.


I wonder when we will get our voter papers in the mail? Not mail-in ballots, just the regular voter slip.


----------



## sags

O'Toole is stumbling along, with his past "pledges" to get elected as PC leader coming back to haunt him.

The latest video of him saying he would privatize healthcare, is followed immediately by the Trudeau announcement of billions of dollars more for public healthcare. That is quite a contrast for voters to contemplate.

Brilliantly done by the Liberals.


----------



## damian13ster

Liberals, Conservatives in dead heat as Trudeau’s popularity dips: election poll - National | Globalnews.ca


The Ipsos poll conducted exclusively for Global News also found Justin Trudeau's popularity is on the downswing, with his approval rating dipping below 50 per cent.




globalnews.ca





This is big:

The party is now seeing a reversal of fortunes in Ontario, where the Liberals last week were enjoying a nine-point lead over the Conservatives. The Tories have now jumped in front, with the Ipsos poll suggesting Erin O’Toole’s party would earn 35 per cent of the vote compared to 31 per cent for the Liberals.

13 point swing in Ontario. Clearly people don't take well to Liberal fabrications and lies.
A recent poll by Ipsos found Trudeau was already facing trust issues heading into the campaign, with 44 per cent believing he will say anything to get elected and 36 per cent saying he has a hidden agenda. *It marked the first time since 2004 that a Liberal leader was seen as the most untrustworthy.*


----------



## sags

O'Toole projects no conviction in his pledges, because his party doesn't support what he says.

He isn't going to be able to ignore the glaring gap. It will be front and center in the debates.......count on it.


----------



## sags

CARP said Trudeau hasn't done much for seniors despite all the spending, and their members are unhappy about it.

There is still time and announcements to be made, so Trudeau has time to correct the oversight.

I am thinking an increase of maximum OAS to $1000 a month would keep the seniors happy and bring them back to the Liberal team.


----------



## damian13ster

Not worried about debates at all.
With Trudeau's lack of intelligence, debates are net positive for opposition parties. 
Campaign in general is better for liberals when scripted - questions pre-approved, and answers read out of transponder.
Actually thinking on the spot - well, thinking in general - not a strong suit of current PM.

And hit and miss again Sags. Liberals are actually winning with comfortable margin with seniors already. Not much to gain there.
It is people actually paying taxes that have enough of mismanagement


----------



## Chrysaphius

damian13ster said:


> Not worried about debates at all.
> With Trudeau's lack of intelligence, debates are net positive for opposition parties.
> Campaign in general is better for liberals when scripted - questions pre-approved, and answers read out of transponder.
> Actually thinking on the spot - well, thinking in general - not a strong suit of current PM.
> 
> And hit and miss again Sags. Liberals are actually winning with comfortable margin with seniors already. Not much to gain there.
> It is people actually paying taxes that have enough of mismanagement


Anyone know a website to see where your local riding candidate is doing among the competing candidates in that riding, as per polls?


----------



## damian13ster

Chrysaphius said:


> Anyone know a website to see where your local riding candidate is doing among the competing candidates in that riding, as per polls?











338Canada Canada | Poll Analysis & Electoral Projections







338canada.com





You can break it down by regions and ridings.
Of course the polled numbers for individual ridings are very small so high uncertainty


----------



## gibor365

As per latest Ipsos poll: “ The party Liberal) is now seeing a reversal of fortunes in Ontario, where the Liberals last week were enjoying a nine-point lead over the Conservatives. The Tories have now jumped in front, with the Ipsos poll suggesting Erin O’Toole’s party would earn 35 per cent of the vote compared to 31 per cent for the Liberals.”!

Very nice!


----------



## ian

Chrysaphius said:


> Anyone know a website to see where your local riding candidate is doing among the competing candidates in that riding, as per polls?


No. There are sometimes 'polls' done by local papers. In my experience the tend to have have a significant margin of error (useless in a close race) or a small, very biased poll done by local journalist that is completely unreliable.

I would not discount any of the two leaders. Those who believe that 'Trudeau's lack of intelligence' are net positive should perhaps think back to the 2015 election where he came from behind and made a bit of fool of Harper and senior Conservative political advisors. They greatly under estimated him and his team.

Same for those who think O'Toole is going to be an easy mark. I do not believe that he is a push over. O'Toole is no Andrew Scheer (fortunately for Canadian voters).

These are both very street smart, very intelligent candidates. To believe otherwise based purely on emotion or beliefs is folly.

I believe that their chances of electoral support are equal. It will be interesting to see if the NDP will be the spoilers that some are predicting.


----------



## damian13ster

True. There was a difference in 2015. No one knew yet how incompetent he is.
Now we have 6 years of proof, and 6 years of blunders and mistakes that can be used in questioning.

They underestimated him precisely because of lack of intelligence. They were right about it. At that time it was hard to exploit though due to lack of track record. Now the track record is there, and it isn't pretty. He already made tons of blunders this campaign, which he largely managed to avoid in 2015 (although how 'Budget will balance itself' doesn't disqualify someone - I still don't know).

Can he still win? Of course, after all he won while announcing that 'budget will balance itself' so clearly intelligence and knowledge isn't high up Canadians' priority list - voters pay attention largely to other aspects, but he has been exposed as incompetent now, while in 2015 we only suspected that he is incompetent


----------



## james4beach

Has anyone received a voter registration card yet?

Also, does a person need that card (showing your name & poll location) if you want to do advance voting? Or can you just walk into advance voting and show your ID? I believe that the polling stations have a full list of voters anyway.


----------



## andrewf

You don't need the card, you can register at the polling place. Just bring proof of address (mail, ID, etc.).

I think the CPC is maybe a bit nervous about popping up in the polls so early in the campaign. This leaves plenty of time for the focus to switch to O'Toole and his party as a government in waiting and for them to get picked apart. It will also make many NDP voters waver if they will be indirectly causing a Conservative government.


----------



## damian13ster

I don't think the former is much of a worry.
The problem O'Toole had was lack of name recognition and that his platform was relatively unknown.
:Liberals tried to take advantage of that by calling shortest campaign legally possible.
He needed to get his ideas out there and get them out there quickly.
Some polls still show large unfamiliarity with him among Canadian workers so the 4 weeks remaining are much needed.

NDP is in precarious position. With Liberals losing ground in nation-wide polls, and rapidly, they can actually increase their seat numbers significantly.
Ontario and BC are two provinces where Liberal failures are having biggest effect in polls - and they are also the two provinces where NDP will gain most seats.

Another thing you have to consider is that Conservative majority still has around 0% mathematic odds.
NDP knows that. They need enough seats taken from Liberals so that they form a coalition.
If their voters decide to vote anti-conservative rather than pro-NDP, they might end up however with Liberal majority and NDP party being completely useless and irrelevant for next 4 years. No say in governing, and not an official opposition.

Lastly, Conservatives are now left-of-center party. They have been for a while, but now the messaging is consistent. No more 'my beliefs are this but I don't plan to enforce my beliefs on others' - it is 'my beliefs are pretty much the same as yours'. For that reason the fear-mongering Liberals employed last campaign won't work this time unless major blunders appear.

So NDP has basically two choices:

get as many votes as possible, form minority government, with 0% risk of conservatives getting majority
switch support to Liberals, give them majority and become irrelevant.
This kind of screws over Liberals, because now they have to move even further left to appease voters and not lose majority of them to NDP. 
And as polls are showing, they are starting to overdo it and a pie-in the sky, adding to 3-trillion dollar debt promises don't have the same effect they used to in 2015


----------



## sags

Breaking news.....Erin O'Toole confirms he would support privatizing health care. The cat is out of the bag. The Liberals say.........told you so.

A couple more days, a few more O'Toole blunders.........and the Liberals will be back in majority territory again.


----------



## sags

The NDP is pledging to eliminate all privatized LTC homes and turn them into publicly owned and managed homes.

A segment was on CBC that privately owned LTC homes considered profit over safety of residents.

They refused the offer of PPE for employees because it "cost too much". It led to many unnecessary deaths of helpless seniors.

We cannot compromise our universal health care, just because O'Toole wants to help his capitalist partners get richer.

After all, we know O'Toole already got caught giving contracts to his insider pals.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> I thought the 2021 budget was the Liberal election platform, but now I read that Trudeau hasn't announced their platform yet.


he is the only party without a platform which i find ridiculou. if you are the party that calls the election, then you should be ready for one by having a platform. It was suggested that he wanted to read the other platform before he came up with one. i find it actually insulting that he thinks that hedeserves to represent us with nothing.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Breaking news.....Erin O'Toole confirms he would support privatizing health care. The cat is out of the bag. The Liberals say.........told you so.


Yeah, we all know by now that Erin O'Toole actually said that "_universal access remains paramount_.", and that doubling down on this fake news is such an embarrassment to the Liberals that even the left media haven't tried to cover it up. 

Honestly sags, when you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you should just be quiet. Don't double down. It makes you look like a fool.

ltr


----------



## gibor365

Canadian dictator threatening SK... what a jerk!








Liberal Party, Scott Moe spar over private MRI clinics | Globalnews.ca


Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe said Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has not threatened other provinces with clawbacks for operating private MRI clinics.




globalnews.ca






Is anyone really believe that Trudeau, his family, friends, high ranked Liberals etc will be waiting 3-4 months to get MRI?! 
Canada looks like Orwell’s Animal Farm and 1984!
“ All animals are equal but some are more equal than others”


----------



## sags

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, we all know by now that Erin O'Toole actually said that "_universal access remains paramount_.", and that doubling down on this fake news is such an embarrassment to the Liberals that even the left media haven't tried to cover it up.
> 
> Honestly sags, when you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you should just be quiet. Don't double down. It makes you look like a fool.
> 
> ltr


O'Toole's assurances of supporting the public system, after saying he will work with the Provinces to privatize healthcare to "save money" and expand into other services.....is hardly comforting to people concerned about public healthcare.

We already have contractor based healthcare.....in labs, MRIs, Xrays.......that are publicly funded, so O'Toole isn't talking about expanding those.

So what healthcare services is he talking about privatizing ?

When will he inform Canadians of the extent of the privatization ?

How will he guarantee it will have a better outcome than privatizing LTC homes ?

O'Toole's stand on abortion is much the same. He personally is against changing the law........but he will allow a free vote of his MPs.

That is just BS and weasel words and people know it.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> O'Toole's assurances of supporting the public system, after saying he will work with the Provinces to privatize healthcare to "save money" and expand into other services.....is hardly comforting to people concerned about public healthcare.
> 
> We already have contractor based healthcare.....in labs, MRIs, Xrays.......that are publicly funded, so O'Toole isn't talking about expanding those.
> 
> So what healthcare services is he talking about privatizing ?
> 
> When will he inform Canadians of the extent of the privatization ?
> 
> How will he guarantee it will have a better outcome than privatizing LTC homes ?
> 
> O'Toole's stand on abortion is much the same. He personally is against changing the law........but he will allow a free vote of his MPs.
> 
> That is just BS and weasel words and people know it.


Hypocritical much?





__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca





Pretty sure this is all happening under Trudeau's watch.
And am not against it. If private sector can do it cheaper than public then by all means, it should be outsourced. And under Trudeau it is being outsourced


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> We already have contractor based healthcare.....in labs, MRIs, Xrays.......that are publicly funded, so O'Toole isn't talking about expanding those.
> 
> So what healthcare services is he talking about privatizing ?


He's talking about partnerships with private business to make the system more efficient wherever it's required. It's no difference where today you go to Shoppers Drug Mart (a private business) and get a COVID vaccine. You show your health card and it's free. The government is working with that private business to make the system more efficient. We can do that with X-rays, MRI's, and anywhere the hospitals are overwhelmed causing backlogs of diagnosis and surgeries. It's not the boogey man you make it out to be. The Liberal machine has spooked you, and it's not reality.

ltr


----------



## sags

If the Quebec government is paying contractors to perform surgeries, they should fund and expand the existing public system instead.

Trudeau said the Federal government isn't giving money to the Provinces so they can pay for private healthcare from the public funds.

So if the Provinces want to fund it themselves..........go ahead.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> If the plan is for the government to pay for it we can spend the money to expand existing public services.


We expanded them about 15 years ago when we started to pay Ontario Health Tax. If before it wasn’t good, after this it became worse and worse every year


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> If the plan is for the government to pay for it we can spend the money to expand existing public services.


Tried it and it hasn't worked. Too inefficient.

ltr


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> If the plan is for the government to pay for it we can spend the money to expand existing public services.


Why would you be against going to a private clinic and showing your health card and getting a free MRI. I know my son's FIL drove up to Montreal a few years ago and paid thousands for a private MRI so that he wouldn't have to wait half a year for one. Why not work with these clinics?

ltr


----------



## sags

So shut down the "slow inefficient" public system and everyone can go to private clinics. What would that solve ?


----------



## sags

There are long waiting lists of people who are already diagnosed and need treatment. More people diagnosed doesn't solve that blockage.

People seem to focus on the obvious and ignore the congested tangle at every stage of the health system.........from diagnosis to treatment.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> So shut down the "slow inefficient" public system and everyone can go to private clinics. What would that solve ?


Why can't we have both? Why would we shut down the public system that works quite well. There are private companies that can be negotiated with to provide specialized service. 

The next time you're at your doctor for a yearly checkup and he gives you a lab request for a bunch of tests, where do you go? Dynacare Labs right? Guess what - it's a private business - not a government department. You show your Health Card and it's free. What is it that you're so afraid of. Stop listening to Liberal scare tactics.

ltr


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Another thing you have to consider is that Conservative majority still has around 0% mathematic odds.
> NDP knows that. They need enough seats taken from Liberals so that they form a coalition.
> If their voters decide to vote anti-conservative rather than pro-NDP, they might end up however with Liberal majority and NDP party being completely useless and irrelevant for next 4 years. No say in governing, and not an official opposition.


Or a repeat of the Harper years.

I don't give a fig what NDP the party thinks, I'm talking about people considering voting NDP. Do they want a conservative government or not.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> If the Quebec government is paying contractors to perform surgeries, they should fund and expand the existing public system instead.
> 
> Trudeau said the Federal government isn't giving money to the Provinces so they can pay for private healthcare from the public funds.
> 
> So if the Provinces want to fund it themselves..........go ahead.


I have no problem with private delivery. Most GPs work in private clinics, we have had private delivery all along.


----------



## sags

Our family doctor has a sign in her office that says if you are unable to get an appointment, please do not go to a clinic.

They recommend you go to the ER at the hospital for treatment.

I looked into it and found out that Ontario doctors get a monthly stipend for each patient they have registered to their practice and if a patient goes to a clinic, the cost of the clinic visit is taken out of the family doctor's payment from the government.

It gets pretty complicated when it comes to funding, but it seems all we are doing is shuffling the deck chairs.

Regardless, the goal is treatment for medical problems and diagnosis is only the first step. We need to address all the bottlenecks through the whole system.

It doesn't do a person much good to get diagnosed with a serious problem but can't get to see a specialist for a year.

People are dying on the waiting lists and doctors know it, but there isn't anything they can do about it.

Right today........Ontario nurses are saying there is a severe shortage of nurses. How is privatized care going to solve that ?

Heck, sometimes it is even difficult to get an ambulance to respond right away. There are a lot of problems to solve.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> It gets pretty complicated when it comes to funding, but it seems all we are doing is shuffling the deck chairs.


Then I recommend you vote Conservative next month so we can change things for the better. It's pretty obvious the Liberals have made a mess of things as you confirm.

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> There are long waiting lists of people who are already diagnosed and need treatment. More people diagnosed doesn't solve that blockage.
> 
> People seem to focus on the obvious and ignore the congested tangle at every stage of the health system.........from diagnosis to treatment.


Well, private clinics are doing surgeries in Quebec. It isn't diagnostics. It does solve the blockage.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Or a repeat of the Harper years.
> 
> I don't give a fig what NDP the party thinks, I'm talking about people considering voting NDP. Do they want a conservative government or not.


But that isn't a question they are facing. There is 0 mathematical chance of Conservative government.

The question for them, is do they want NDP to govern with Liberals, or do they want Liberals to govern alone


----------



## sags

like_to_retire said:


> Then I recommend you vote Conservative next month so we can change things for the better. It's pretty obvious the Liberals have made a mess of things as you confirm.
> 
> ltr


But health care is a Provincial responsibility and successive Liberal and Conservative governments have underfunded it for decades.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Well, private clinics are doing surgeries in Quebec. It isn't diagnostics. It does solve the blockage.


It means those surgeons aren't working in hospitals, so are people waiting longer for surgeries in the public system ?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> But health care is a Provincial responsibility and successive Liberal and Conservative governments have underfunded it for decades.


So you are attacking federal candidate on health care while saying healthcare is provincial responsibility 😅  
You have one candidate that is offering 6% annual increases to health care funding.
You have one candidate who refused to raise health care funding even during pandemic.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> It means those surgeons aren't working in hospitals, so are people waiting longer for surgeries in the public system ?


You assume they want to work in a public system. If they did, then there wouldn't be staffing shortage.
They can work more efficiently, cheaper, with better conditions, and with less fat politicians taking their earnings away in admin roles.
All for benefit of Canadians since they provide superior service for lower price.
Patient wins, taxpayer wins, doctors win.


----------



## ian

sags....your assumption appears to be that this is a binary decision, that private and public cannot co-exist under a public umbrella. Well...they already are to a certain extent.

Health care is the largest component of any Provincial budget. It needs to be more efficient in terms of value for money and customer satisfaction. It seems fairly obvious to me that there are some functions that the private sector can provide in a much faster time frame and at a lower cost than inside the current public health care environment.

And they can and they should be done inside the public health umbrella with no extra billing as per the Canada Health Act-just provided by private business.

The notion that our universal health care system will change or be eliminated under a Conservative Government is absolute hogwash. Why...because of the constant polling that 80percent of Canadians want the current system. No Government that wants to be re- elected would dare change that. Did the Conservative Gov's of Mulroney, Clark or Harper change it? No, of course not...for this very reason.


----------



## damian13ster

Sags simply fell victim of disinformation.
We were warned before election that there will be disinformation campaign, manipulation, and fake-news trying to influence Canadian election.
So it is not a surprise it happened. Of course people didn't expect it to come from current government, but seeing corruption and lack of ethics from them, I am not surprised.
Sadly this is the state we are in. Canadian government is a source of manipulated media and disinformation and people like sags apparently fall victim of it


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Sags simply fell victim of disinformation.
> We were warned before election that there will be disinformation campaign, manipulation, and fake-news trying to influence Canadian election.
> So it is not a surprise it happened. Of course people didn't expect it to come from current government, but seeing corruption and lack of ethics from them, I am not surprised.
> Sadly this is the state we are in. Canadian government is a source of manipulated media and disinformation and people like sags apparently fall victim of it


Sags simply fell victim to brainwashing by Liberals and their media! He’s happy from $500 Trudeau is throwing at him, but don’t realize that his grands goons pay x5 from it


----------



## damian13ster

Huh, liberals released their plan for housing:

increase housing prices
increase bank profits
make taxpayer liable for housing crash
Not a surprise since literally only economic growth liberals managed to accomplish is realtor fees. Rise in prices is responsible for over half of GDP growth under liberal government
Canada spends more on agent commissions than it does in R&D in entire country, all sectors combined.

I have no idea what they are thinking but decreasing CMHC liquidity and further socializing risks is single stupidest idea of this election so far (we still have 4 weeks).

Here is a plan in total:

First Home Savings Account (they forgot about home buyer's plan in RRSP? - nevertheless, happy to pay less taxes)
25% drop in CMHC premium (ladies and gentleman, single worst idea of 2021 election contender)
anti-flipping tax on residential properties (yeah, that already exists)
ban new foreign ownership (copying O'Toole)
preserve or repair 1.4million houses (whatever that means, siding repair, staining of decks?)
doubling Housing co-investment fund (ehhh, this program is so bad less than half of what was supposed to be spent got allocated)

Summary from a person much smarter than me:

Rob Gillezeau, assistant professor of economics at the University of Victoria and a former NDP wonk, puts it less charitably. “The Liberal housing plan is an incoherent jumble that unsuccessfully looks to one up their opponents in every dimension,”


There is really simple ways to start fixing housing market:

phase out CMHC
build, baby, build!
The amount of red tape for re-zoning and for building is absolutely insane. Fix it


----------



## andrewf

Feds can't do anything about zoning, that is provincial jurisdictions (via municipalities). Eliminating CMHC would probably lead to massive reduction in credit offered to buyers, or big increase in systemic risk, or both. Making credit harder to access would probably put home ownership permanently beyond the reach of a pretty broad swathe of society, whose bank of mom and dad can't assist with purchases, etc.


----------



## damian13ster

Yes, I am aware. Those are things needed to fix the housing market, not an election proposal suggestion.
That is kind of the point on CMHC. You decrease the price by increasing supply and making credit harder to get.
Of course Canadian housing market is like a game with musical chairs......without many chairs left and with every single one of us forced to participate. The longer the music plays, the harder the fall.
We went way too far and that's why I used 'phase-out' and not eliminate.
The book value of assets for CMHC need to slowly decrease.
We created situation in which profits are privatized and risk is socialized, which leads to huge availability of ill-advised credit and an increase in pricing. This mad cycle needs stopping, not speeding up by decreasing safety buffer for CMHC while keeping taxpayer on the hook for a housing crash.

It would put some people out of the market - temporarily, so the prices would start dropping until returning to healthy level (in which people can actually afford it and not have taxpayer on the hook for risk taking of the banks). Luckily it will be very short term since speculators and people buying housing simply for investment will exit the market on the sign of correction.

You can't have it both ways. You can't artificially increase demand, have supply be slow, and expect market to be healthy.
Of course that is administrative solution that would remove source of artificial inflation of the market.
Long term stability is built purely by building more housing.


----------



## andrewf

I think the problem is largely one of inadequate supply and low interest rates. Eliminating CMHC would just transform owners into renters, with a similar impact on demand for housing and prices.

One way to attack crazy land price appreciation would be a land value tax. But that would not be federal policy, at any rate.


----------



## sags

If employers could be encouraged to build away from densely populated urban areas, it would relieve some of the demand in those areas.

Most of the population of Canada is crammed into a small geographical area, because that is where all the work is located.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> I think the problem is largely one of inadequate supply and low interest rates. Eliminating CMHC would just transform owners into renters, with a similar impact on demand for housing and prices.
> 
> One way to attack crazy land price appreciation would be a land value tax. But that would not be federal policy, at any rate.


I am completely in agreement with you. Low interest rates and low supply are core problems.
The problem is that government pushed us so far into debt that they need to put a blindfold on and pretend there is no need to raise interest rates.

CMHC is one of the reasons for low interest rates too.
Try to get a mortgage with 19% down payment insured through CMHC
Then try to get a mortgage with 25% down payment not insured through CMHC.

Guess which one has higher interest rate, the one with more starting equity or the one with less starting equity?
Banks know that taxpayer is on the hook if something goes wrong so they can artificially lower interest rates to drive demand higher.

Introducing policy that puts taxpayer at even more risk and makes cost of borrowing even cheaper is completely counterproductive and to be plain - idiotic.
They are increasing already socialized risk


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> I would only have one rule.
> 
> a) To get a voter card you have to take a test.
> 
> ltr


I disapprove, because then they would be able to skew the test to manipulate who votes


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I have no problem with private delivery. Most GPs work in private clinics, we have had private delivery all along.


The vast majority of "health care" is private.
Most drugs (outside hospital)
Most Dental
Most Physio and other therapy.
Most Optical care
Most services (labs, blood, ultrasound, xray) all have private providers.

Many hospital services are outsourced.

And of course many doctors work in private offices, not government run offices.


----------



## MrMatt

To lower housing prices.
Build more housing.
Encourage people to offer rental housing

Allow speculators to prebuild housing BEFORE it's needed.
Most builders build a few small "show homes". Why not get big money and build the whole subdivision as fast as you can?


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Speaking of drug policies, it looks like those lefty Conservatives are going to try the treat the opiate crisis as a health matter rather than a criminal matter. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-opioids-addiction-mental-health-1.6149408
> 
> _"As prime minister, I will treat the opioid epidemic as the health crisis that it is," he said.
> "That means that our focus should be on helping people with addictions get the help they need to recover."
> The promises, part of the party's election platform book, include $325 million over three years to create 1,000 new treatment beds and build 50 recovery centres in communities across the country. _


Yeah, Erin is running a lefty platform.

I think the opiod/meth/various drug "crisis" is both a heath and criminal matter.
Secondly if it's a healthcare problem, it's provincial.

I think Erin is looking about as Conservative as Trudeau is Liberal.


----------



## sags

Interesting fact........Trudeau has never been leading the polls for long periods in past elections in 2015 and 2019.

Harper was ahead in 2015 and the Liberals started in third place. In 2019, the NDP were ahead and Trudeau battled to the end with Mulcair.

Maybe he likes to be the victorious underdog........the comeback kid.

O'Toole got out of the gate and dumped pretty much his whole platform in the early days of the campaign.

Trudeau is just starting to announce one piece of his platform at a time, which I originally thought was the 2021 budget but I guess not.

There will be more goodies coming from the Liberals apparently. It is kind of exciting......like waiting for Santa to arrive.

On the first day of election JT gave to me......a partridge in a pear tree. On the second day of election JT gave to me.......

Which strategy is better ? Who knows, but O'Toole is kind of stuck repeating the same rhetoric every day now, while Trudeau gets to happily announces a new program for lucky Canadians every couple of days. Smiles all around.......wide media coverage.......it works.

We shall see who has the better strategy though. It will all come up in the wash.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Interesting fact........Trudeau has never been leading the polls for long periods in past elections in 2015 and 2019.
> 
> Maybe he likes to be the victorious underdog........comeback kid.
> 
> O'Toole got out of the gate and dumped pretty much his whole platform early Trudeau is just starting to put it out one piece at a time.
> 
> Which is better ? Who knows, but now all O'Toole can really do is repeat the same things every day, while Trudeau happily announces a new program every couple of days.
> 
> Time and results will tell which strategy is more successful.


Conservatives are ready, have a plan, and put it out there.

To me it looks pretty much like what you'd expect from the Liberals, except a tiny bit more of the individual controlling the handout, instead of the Government running another system that benefits theirs.

The NDP put out their ridiculous lefty platform.
The CPC put out their center left platform.

The Liberals aren't left with much to distinguish themselves. But I wouldn't underestimate Trudeau.
Despite him being an idiot, and wildly incompetent at pretty much everything, he/his team are incredibly capable politicians. Trudeau has already survived several scandals that would have buried any other politician, yet here we are, with him leading the polls yet again.


----------



## sags

I suspect we may.....just may.....hear a hint of a coming guaranteed basic income in the future coming from the Liberals.

They may want to slide it gently out there......just to capture some of the enthusiasm for it in the NDP campground.

A few extra NDP voters breaking for the Liberals might come in handy. It can always be shelved later for.........future discussion.


----------



## damian13ster

The rumors are that they are asking liberal members if they have any 'good ideas' for a platform.
Their newly released platform is either ideas that already exist (RRSP First Home Buyer Advantage), stuff they have no jurisdiction over (health care outside of transfers, majority of their housing platform), stuff that they copy (O'Tooles ban on foreign purchases), or stuff that is representative of their actual IQ (decreasing capitalization and liquidity of CMHC).
They are desperate and are shooting blanks


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> They are desperate and are shooting blanks


And you think that matters???


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> And you think that matters???


Hopefully. Polls show it does. A little, but it does.
my personal favorite is adding funds to programs that are so bad that no one actually wants to use!
A nice headline, but zero actual spending.
They just doubled funding to a housing program so poorly designed, that less than 50% of previously committed funds actually got allocated!


----------



## like_to_retire

Rex Murphy sums up Trudeau in a single paragraph.

_"When you waste your time with foolishness, irrational fads and pseudo-causes, when you continually diagnose your own country as a cauldron of racism and colonialism, tear down the statues of heroes and founders, virtue-signal at volume ten over your feminism, deride blue collar workers, hail your greatest industry as a “planet destroyer,” it comes as no surprise that you pile on just one more silly, vain pretense, i.e., that suddenly everyone in Canada wants an election called in mid-August. During the very period, no less, when every citizen in the country has a stockpile of mouth-and-nose guards and are standing six-feet apart every time they go out to buy a loaf of bread and toilet tissue."_

ltr


----------



## diharv

Lucky Canadians. Except our kids, who will be saddled for eternity with the debt from his his profligate vote buying spending promises.


----------



## sags

Rex backed Harper and Scheer. He isn't a very good judge of winners.


----------



## sags

The 2023 budget will address the deficit. A nip here and a tuck there, and the budget could be balanced by 2025 or so.

It will likely include changes to capital gains taxes, TFSAs and RRSPs, and an increase of 2% to the HST and a tax on extreme wealth among other things.

Of course, that is why Trudeau called an election and needs a majority mandate, so he doesn't need opposition support to get it done.


----------



## diharv

sags said:


> The 2023 budget will address the deficit. A nip here and a tuck there, and the budget could be balanced by 2025 or so.
> 
> It will likely include changes to capital gains taxes, TFSAs and RRSPs, and an increase of 2% to the HST and a tax on extreme wealth among other things.
> 
> Of course, that is why Trudeau called an election and needs a majority mandate, so he doesn't need opposition support to get it done.


I kind of wonder if I am the only one who is reading your nonsense and shaking my head and everyone else has you blocked or on ignore.


----------



## gibor365

diharv said:


> I kind of wonder if I am the only one who is reading your nonsense and shaking my head and everyone else has you blocked or on ignore.


Who didn’t... just consider him as a clown LOL


----------



## sags

But when I hang up my keyboard.......

_Who's gonna fill his shoes?
Who's gonna stand that tall?
Who's gonna challenge Conservatives
And Libertarians until elections in the fall.

Who's gonna give their heart and soul
To get to me and you?
Lord, I wonder who's gonna fill his shoes
Yes I wonder who's gonna fill Sag's shoes_

For clarity.......I purposefully capitalized the C in conservative and L in libertarian to identify only those who reside on the outer edges of political views.


----------



## kcowan

MrMatt said:


> Most builders build a few small "show homes". Why not get big money and build the whole subdivision as fast as you can?


That would be high risk and require larger returns, i.e. higher prices
OTOH the US model keeps the government out of it. They have to build the roads, power grid, sewage hookups and probably save more money that way.


----------



## kcowan

diharv said:


> I kind of wonder if I am the only one who is reading your nonsense and shaking my head and everyone else has you blocked or on ignore.


I noticed that the post count jumped. Must be sags?


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> That would be high risk and require larger returns, i.e. higher prices
> OTOH the US model keeps the government out of it. They have to build the roads, power grid, sewage hookups and probably save more money that way.


Here the developer has to construct all that infrastructure as well. It's a common practice across Ontario.




__





Loading…






www.kawarthalakes.ca





A nearby subdivision is labelled with "unassumed roadway".
Meaning until the build is complete, and approved and accepted by the city, it's all the responsibility of the developer.

Also I think that paying a slightly higher price to have more housing available is worth it.
If we can get builders to bring 2x the number of property online, it will reduce bidding wars and help stabilize property prices. The reason we get bidding wars is because of a lack of supply.


----------



## sags

Spoken like a P.Eng.........


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The 2023 budget will address the deficit. A nip here and a tuck there, and the budget could be balanced by 2025 or so.
> 
> It will likely include changes to capital gains taxes, TFSAs and RRSPs, and an increase of 2% to the HST and a tax on extreme wealth among other things.
> 
> Of course, that is why Trudeau called an election and needs a majority mandate, so he doesn't need opposition support to get it done.


No way the budget can be balanced by 2025, all the parties are promising billions in handouts.
RRSPs are the only way for most to get a "pension".
TFSA's aren't a huge tax loss, they're basically an RRSP, except we collect income tax now, rather than in the future.

Tax on wealth and hike capital gains tax, well that's how you get capital flight.

Really those are horrible ideas.

But Trudeau doesn't need a majority for that, the NDP is all for stupid economy destroying taxes. They could have passed those measures with no issues.
Could you imagine if they put forward a wealth tax and the NDP voted against it?


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## gibor365

Wealth tax will be political suicide for them


----------



## nathan79

Everyone proclaims to want affordable housing, but homeowners have been conditioned to view their homes as investment vehicles and retirement accounts. Thus, politicians are terrified of doing anything that might actually lower home prices, even by 10%. They pretend to care about millennials (apparently first-time buyers over the age of 40 don't exist), but they're really more concerned about protecting people who FOMO'ed into the market at 30% over the asking price. In the past, those people would have been forced to bear the consequences of their poor decisions.

So we end up with these wishy-washy, contradictory measures targeted at people who are on the margins of affording a home. The don't address the real problem, which is that houses cost too much. We aren't going to solve that problem with 30-year mortgages, tweaks to CMHC, savings plans, shared equity schemes, or permanently low interest rates. Those things are little band-aids that create the illusion of affordability for a select few, but over the longer term lead to increased demand and increased prices.

To reduce prices would require decreasing demand and/or increasing supply. Every party talks about building more supply, but the amount of homes that actually get built is a drop in the bucket. Preventing foreign buyers is a good start to reducing demand, but that alone won't make a huge dent, particularly when paired with chronically low supply and other policies that are designed to increase demand. Politicians know this well, which is why they carefully balance any helpful policies with unhelpful ones, so as not to upset the apple cart.


----------



## sags

_The PBO’s post-budget scenario does not include any new economic developments since the March pre-budget outlook. It reflects only the impacts of Budget 2021 measures relative to the PBO’s pre-budget outlook.*Under the PBO’s post-budget scenario, the budgetary deficit reaches $36 billion (1.2 % of GDP) in 2025-26 and the federal debt settles at 49.2 % of GDP in 2025-26.*

To illustrate the uncertainty surrounding the post-budget scenario, the report presents distributions of possible future outcomes based on the past forecast performance of private sector economists in Finance’s Canada survey.

*“Assuming no future policy actions,* we estimate that there is only a 5% chance the budget will be balanced or in a surplus position in 2025-26. We also estimate that there is a 35% chance the federal debt ratio in 2025-26 will be above its 2021-22 level of 51.3% of GDP,” says PBO Yves Giroux._

So assuming no future policy actions......as in structural changes to taxation, the budget deficit is projected out to be around 36 billion in 2025.

To achieve balance the government needs to generate 36 billion in additional revenue through economic growth and increased taxation by 2025.

It is possible........if the political will is there.


----------



## diharv

To achieve balance, the government needs to curb and cut its careless wasteful spending ways. The pool of "other people's money" that what's his nuts wants to tap to create his socialist apologetic utopia is finite and fed up. 
It is possible, but political will is not there.


----------



## damian13ster

Parliamentary Budget Officer stated that current government won't balance the budget until 2070


----------



## james4beach

nathan79 said:


> Everyone proclaims to want affordable housing, but homeowners have been conditioned to view their homes as investment vehicles and retirement accounts. Thus, politicians are terrified of doing anything that might actually lower home prices, even by 10%. They pretend to care about millennials (apparently first-time buyers over the age of 40 don't exist), but they're really more concerned about protecting people who FOMO'ed into the market at 30% over the asking price. In the past, those people would have been forced to bear the consequences of their poor decisions.


Exactly. All politicians, all political parties want to keep home prices elevated. And older voters (boomers) desperately need home prices to stay high.

No politician is willing to pull the rug out from under housing. If someone really wanted to do it, the methods are reasonably clear: end CMHC stimulus, raise interest rates.

But that's political suicide (plus it would destroy the economy), which is why all politicians pursue some variation of housing _stimulus,_ which won't risk crashing home prices. Either they increase CMHC stimulus, as every party has done so far, or they create more buying credits and stimulus programs.

I'm ignoring all the political talk on "affordable housing" because I already know what the politicians will do, and it's not going to make housing more affordable. No matter which party is elected.


----------



## Eder

I would suggest the group ,most vulnerable to a drop in house prices would be new gen x & mill owners mortgaged to the hilt after paying too much. I would think most prudent boomers have their houses paid off or at least close.


----------



## damian13ster

But the optics of having the value of their homes drop wouldn't fly by people who own those homes.
Plus there would be 0 GDP growth without housing.
The Canadian economy is pathological.
It is based on rise in home prices, and on raw materials.
And we are doing the best we can to kill raw materials sector


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> It is possible........if the political will is there.


"So assuming no future policy actions.."<< This assumption isn't realistic
There is no political will, all the major parties are promising massive spending. 
We have a spectrum of big increases in spending, to absolutely ridiculous levels of spending, with a bit of "tax the rich" as "cover"

There is virtually no chance of a balanced budget within the decade IMO. Chretien/Martin did a great job selling their massive budget cuts, and I don't think Trudeau has it in him.


----------



## kcowan

Has everyone forgotten 1990 when the property declined for 7 years before recovering? How about 1980 when the spot rate for demand mortgages peaked over 22%!

Politicians like to say that it won't happen again. But they really cannot control it. Real estate has become a speculative investment.

And if they lay on a wealth tax on the rich while simultaneously taxing their bank holdings, do you think there will be no backlash?


----------



## james4beach

kcowan said:


> Has everyone forgotten 1990 when the property declined for 7 years before recovering? How about 1980 when the spot rate for demand mortgages peaked over 22%!
> 
> Politicians like to say that it won't happen again. But they really cannot control it. Real estate has become a speculative investment.


I completely agree. But yeah, everyone has forgotten it. We've now been in 30 years of steadily rising home prices with no correction, no pain.

People speculate on it (heavily leveraged) and this is considered normal now. Friends of mine in their 30s have been buying properties with as little as 5% down. Remember that investors even forget about stock market risk and the pain of crashes after 10 years. If you go 30 years without pain, that's an entire lifetime and hardly anyone remembers what pain is like.


----------



## sags

People are speculating on all kinds of things now. They think everything is going to be worth more in the future.

Bubbles in all kinds of collectibles, stocks, real estate, cryptocurrencies, used boats and cars, and on and on.

The bubbles are all going to pop and it will be a mess for those trapped inside them, but the world will still rotate.

When the bubbles explode it is a great time to pick up assets on the cheap. Then all you have to do is wait another 30 years for the bubbles to form again.


----------



## nathan79

james4beach said:


> I completely agree. But yeah, everyone has forgotten it. We've now been in 30 years of steadily rising home prices with no correction, no pain.
> 
> People speculate on it (heavily leveraged) and this is considered normal now. Friends of mine in their 30s have been buying properties with as little as 5% down. Remember that investors even forget about stock market risk and the pain of crashes after 10 years. If you go 30 years without pain, that's an entire lifetime and hardly anyone remembers what pain is like.


I wish you guys were right, but it seems too big to fail now. Government doesn't want prices to come down even 10%, so the question becomes what lengths they will go to prevent a crash, and will they be successful or not.


----------



## damian13ster

nathan79 said:


> I wish you guys were right, but it seems too big to fail now. Government doesn't want prices to come down even 10%, so the question becomes what lengths they will go to prevent a crash, and will they be successful or not.


Inflate it until next election, future of the country be damned.


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## damian13ster

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Loading…






nanos.co





Conservatives now leading in polls.
Trudeau still preferred PM.
His advantage narrowed from 18 points 2 weeks ago to 4 points today.


----------



## sags

10% undecided, so it looks about right.

It is the undecideds who make the difference and NDP voters who bail to the Liberals to stop the Conservatives.

It might be time for Trudeau to roll out the "big plan".


----------



## damian13ster

With the way the polls are going and how inept Trudeau is, this time it might be Liberal voters that will bail to the NDP to stop the conservatives.










All undecideds are going to O'Toole by the looks of it.
Trudeau with over 3% drop
Singh with 1% rise
O'Toole with 11% rise
Unsure with 8% drop.


----------



## sags

As there are 3 left leaning parties in Canada and 1 right leaning party, the majority of the "undecideds" are those who haven't decided if they will vote Liberal, NDP or Green.

Generally speaking the right leaning Conservative supporters are more hard core and make up their minds early, whereas the "lefties" consider which left leaning agenda suits them best.

There isn't a lot of crossover between the "lefties" to the "righties"......or vice versa. Those numbers are pretty much set in stone.

So it would appear that O'Toole has peaked and topped out, and the dogfight is between the Liberals and NDP.........same as in 2019.

Majority or minority Liberal government will depend on if the NDP can hold their support.


----------



## damian13ster

Have you seen conservative platform?
Conservative party is left leaning.
Smart move strategically as long as they don't allow any party to become relevant to the right of them (Bernier is slowly gaining).
They became left leaning so now cover vast majority of political spectrum while NDP and Liberals are squeezing themselves into far left, competing for electorate that is getting smaller.
Every move to the left by CPC means less space and less electorate for Liberals and NDP

Now instead of:
'conservatices are too far to the right so I will vote for parties too far to the left'
you have
'NDP and Liberals are far left so I will vote left-leaning conservatives'.
And old conservative electorate is
'conservatives are too far left but my only alternative is extreme left' (until Bernier makes an inroads)

Then how do you explain the recent 8% drop in undecideds going entirely to conservatives?


----------



## sags

Trudeau announced an increase to the GIS today. It is small potatoes at $50 a month but better than a kick in the pants.

Some Liberals are pushing for the OAS to be raised for ALL people over 65, rather than just those 75 and older.

The Liberals have heard the message from CARP that seniors are unhappy.


----------



## sags

The big plan is still to be introduced. Some insiders are saying it will remind people of Roosevelt's New Deal, but they are going to call it the Big Deal.

That way when someone approaches and says......what is the big deal, Liberals can tell them all about it. Brilliant strategy move by Liberal ad guys.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Have you seen conservative platform?
> Conservative party is left leaning.
> Smart move strategically as long as they don't allow any party to become relevant to the right of them (Bernier is slowly gaining).
> They became left leaning so now cover vast majority of political spectrum while NDP and Liberals are squeezing themselves into far left, competing for electorate that is getting smaller.
> Every move to the left by CPC means less space and less electorate for Liberals and NDP
> 
> Now instead of:
> 'conservatices are too far to the right so I will vote for parties too far to the left'
> you have
> 'NDP and Liberals are far left so I will vote left-leaning conservatives'.
> And old conservative electorate is
> 'conservatives are too far left but my only alternative is extreme left' (until Bernier makes an inroads)
> 
> Then how do you explain the recent 8% drop in undecideds going entirely to conservatives?


Of course, this is a long con. O'Toole is campaigning to the left, but will likely govern on the right (this was the old Liberal MO under Chretien/Martin).


----------



## damian13ster

Maybe. I don't see why he would do that though.
What is the incentive? The easiest way to keep power is to keep sliding to the left.
The easiest way for unethical politicians to enrich themselves is to be on the left.
The easiest way to hide incompetence is to be on the left.

What incentive would O'Toole have to do a bait and switch?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Of course, this is a long con. O'Toole is campaigning to the left, but will likely govern on the right (this was the old Liberal MO under Chretien/Martin).


It’s a smart move, as all our Russian-Ukrainian-Jewish community is going to vote Conservative regardless. There is nothing on the real right as PPC in current election system is just noice


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Maybe. I don't see why he would do that though.
> What is the incentive? The easiest way to keep power is to keep sliding to the left.
> The easiest way for unethical politicians to enrich themselves is to be on the left.
> The easiest way to hide incompetence is to be on the left.
> 
> What incentive would O'Toole have to do a bait and switch?


To maintain control of the party. I don't think they want PPC to be Reform redux.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> To maintain control of the party. I don't think they want PPC to be Reform redux.


Then we are in agreement. In all of my posts on the topic I said that until there is a viable party to the right of the conservatives, then the smart choice is to slide left.

PPC is not yet such party. They get close to nothing in the polls, although Bernier did just pass both Greens and BQ.
Once PPC starts gaining some ground, conservatives will have to stop their slide to the left.

I think we are years away from that though if not longer, so I don't see an incentive for bait and switch until PPC is at double digits


----------



## andrewf

I saw a poll with PPC at 7%!


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Then we are in agreement. In all of my posts on the topic I said that until there is a viable party to the right of the conservatives, then the smart choice is to slide left.
> 
> PPC is not yet such party. They get close to nothing in the polls, although Bernier did just pass both Greens and BQ.
> Once PPC starts gaining some ground, conservatives will have to stop their slide to the left.
> 
> I think we are years away from that though if not longer, so I don't see an incentive for bait and switch until PPC is at double digits


This is why the big parties are scared of instant run off. Bernier is a bit unique, but If he could actually capture 10+ seats other party dissidents would be able to form mini parties. The days of Liberal "Natural ruling Party" would be numbered.


----------



## sags

A government with a lot of fringe parties would be like herding cats to get anything done.


----------



## damian13ster

That's ideal situation. Good policies can gain consensus.
Policies that can't get consensus aren't good enough.
Stalemate in government is by far the best situation


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> A government with a lot of fringe parties would be like herding cats to get anything done.


I know, wouldn't that be great!

Imagine a Parliament that actually discussed and debated the plans for the country, rather than a few party elites setting the agenda.

Also I don't want the government to do everything. The Federal government has so much free time, they're doing things that aren't their job.
Looking at the platforms it seems like 2/3 of their "plan" is things that are Provincial responsibilities anyway.


----------



## Zipper

I think this was the week Trudeau became the emperor with no clothes.

He is in freefall and unlikely to recover.


----------



## gibor365

Zipper said:


> I think this was the week Trudeau became the emperor with no clothes.
> 
> He is in freefall and unlikely to recover.


Hopefully so


----------



## damian13ster

Zipper said:


> I think this was the week Trudeau became the emperor with no clothes.
> 
> He is in freefall and unlikely to recover.


He was always an emperor with no clothes.
Populace was still at the stage of pretending that isn't the case.
Looks like finally more and more people aren't blind to it.

Liberal platform is literally throwing **** at the board in hope it sticks.
Everyday a new announcement, more desperate, and the ideas just continue to get worse.
So far it is all slowly dripping making a huge pile of mess.


----------



## sags

Listened to Andrew Coyne and the CBC panel yesterday and they agreed with what I posted before.

The left leaning voters believed that the choice was a Liberal majority or Liberal minority, and they thought they could safely vote NDP.

Now that the polls have tightened and the NDP say they would work with a Conservative minority government, the calculus for those voters has changed.

It is now a Liberal minority or a Conservative minority.......with even a very remote but possible chance of a Conservative majority.

A Conservative government of any sort would be intolerable for left leaning voters and they will flock back to the Liberals to ensure it doesn't happen.

If true......we will see the polls begin to move towards support for the Liberals again.

It will be very difficult for O'Toole to win with 30% of the vote, when the other 70% couldn't tolerate a CPC victory.

If he manages to pull it off..........all kudos to him. All hail the new King.

He will be the champion of the CPC party, and they can stop dreaming of a Harper comeback and kick Kenney and Poilivere to the curb.

The Liberals will arrange tributes for Trudeau and send him on a well deserved vacation. Chrystia will become the next leader for the future.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> He was always an emperor with no clothes.
> Populace was still at the stage of pretending that isn't the case.
> Looks like finally more and more people aren't blind to it.
> 
> Liberal platform is literally throwing **** at the board in hope it sticks.
> Everyday a new announcement, more desperate, and the ideas just continue to get worse.
> So far it is all slowly dripping making a huge pile of mess.


Big announcements still coming. They are saving the best for last.

What will it be ? A guaranteed basic income ? Universal prescriptions ? A one time covid benefit payment of $10,000 each......I kind of like that one.

Of course it will have to be paid for and that is why more tax announcements could be coming.

Maybe a one time wealth tax... ...like a one and done type of deal ?

If they put it together it could even be a done (the announcements) and won (the election) result.

It works for me.


----------



## gibor365

_My own guess is that the Bloc Québécois would vote against the Liberals. Not out of a preference for O’Toole Conservatism, but because Bloc leader Yves-François Blanchet has made it clear his preferred outcome this year is a weak and malleable minority government from which the Bloc can extract concessions. A rookie Conservative government led by an MP from outside Quebec simply sounds, to me, like an easier mark for Blanchet. 








Federal election 2021: Is a Conservative minority government even possible? - Macleans.ca


Paul Wells: It would hang on how the opposition parties vote, of course. And it's hard to imagine the NDP paving the way for Erin O'Toole to become prime minister.




www.macleans.ca




_


----------



## gibor365

Btw, anybody got voter card?


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Btw, anybody got voter card?


Not yet. I was getting a bit concerned--typically they would have been sent out by now.


----------



## like_to_retire

They mail them out 3 weeks before voting day. That would be next week.

ltr


----------



## gibor365

I googled and looks like advanced polls are going to start Sep 10 for 4 days, but the voting stations are still unknown


----------



## like_to_retire

gibor365 said:


> I googled and looks like advanced polls are going to start Sep 10 for 4 days, but the voting stations are still unknown


I already voted by mail. I did have to walk to the mail box, but it wasn't crowded at all.

ltr


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> I already voted by mail. I did have to walk to the mail box, but it wasn't crowded at all.
> 
> ltr


I don’t like voting by mail 😁 in any case, congrats, hope you voted for right party 😜


----------



## ian

If I vote Conservative who am I voting for? The Reform Party, the social conservatives, the traditional fiscal conservative Conservatives, the red Tories??


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> If I vote Conservative who am I voting for? The Reform Party, the social conservatives, the traditional fiscal conservative Conservatives, the red Tories??











Conservative Party of Canada


Today’s Conservative Party is a vibrant national organization with strong grassroots support from coast to coast to coast. The Party, its caucus, and its members upholding the proud Canadian Conservative tradition.




www.conservative.ca





This is what you are voting for. They actually came out with comprehensive platform that covers vast majority of issues.
Read it, and then decide whatever label you want to attach, and whether you like the platform.


----------



## sags

I think O'Toole will be able to stumble along until the debates, and then he is in trouble. He doesn't fare well in direct questions from the media.

I think he is permanently lodged between thinking of the voters he needs to attract to win, and the "folks back home" he doesn't want to offend.

All the while he is performing mental calculations on the fly as he attempts to formulate a plausible answer that isn't easily contradicted by past statements.

Like they say......telling the truth is easy. All you have to do is remember the truth.

When you shade the truth or outright lie, you have to try to remember everything you told everyone else at some earlier point and hope it matches up.

O'Toole strikes me as always trying to remember what he has told others before.

Unfortunately for him, it makes him look clueless at best or shifty at worst. Either way it isn't a good look for someone who wants to lead Canada.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Not yet. I was getting a bit concerned--typically they would have been sent out by now.


I heard on a guest program (I think with someone from Elections Canada) that the approximate date of card delivery will be the first week of September, or could spill into second week.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> If I vote Conservative who am I voting for? The Reform Party, the social conservatives, the traditional fiscal conservative Conservatives, the red Tories??


Mostly Reform and Canadian Alliance people


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Mostly Reform and Canadian Alliance people


I wish it was true! Still there is no other choice except Conservatives


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I wish it was true! Still there is no other choice except Conservatives


gibor, they *are* the Reform/Alliance party. It's the kind of people you love... they have everything you are dreaming of


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> gibor, they *are* the Reform/Alliance party. It's the kind of people you love... they have everything you are dreaming of


No, unfortunately they are not .... but they are the only sane party


----------



## sags

It appears the Reformers won out on the issue of climate change.

O'Toole announces he will not abide by the multinational emissions agreement and will roll the targets back to those of the Harper government.

As climate change is a top priority issue for voters, it looks to me like an unforced error during an election campaign.





__





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www.cbc.ca


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> It appears the Reformers won out on the issue of climate change.
> 
> O'Toole announces he will not abide by the multinational emissions agreement and will roll the targets back to those of the Harper government.
> 
> As climate change is a top priority issue for voters, it looks to me like an unforced error during an election campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbc.ca


Sags again spreading disinformation! Climate change is absolutely not top issue, but almost a last one at #11 (just above abortion) . Only 42% consider it an important issue








4. Important issues in the 2020 election


With the country in the midst of a recession, nearly eight-in-ten registered voters (79%) say the economy will be very important to them in making their




www.pewresearch.org


----------



## like_to_retire

gibor365 said:


> Climate change is absolutely not top issue, but almost a last one at #11


Yeah, the weather is about last on my list too.

ltr


----------



## sags

Good for them that the climate change deniers have a home in the Conservative Party........and a big voice in the party on issues as well.

By the way, your poll is a US poll from the 2020 US Presidential election. Joe Biden won that race with an extensive climate change plan.


----------



## sags

In Ontario the environment is the top issue.

That doesn't look good for O'Toole's chances of winning more ridings here.

I knew it was just a matter of time before he started stepping into the cow patties.





__





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www.cbc.ca


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Joe Biden won that race with an extensive climate change plan.


Biden won that race for the sole reason that they wanted Trump out of power. Bozo the clown could have won that election.

ltr


----------



## sags

Biden cancelled the Keystone Pipeline in his first day in office, just like he said he would.

I expect O'Toole's poll numbers will start to drop as he reveals the man behind the mask

.


----------



## MrMatt

ian said:


> If I vote Conservative who am I voting for? The Reform Party, the social conservatives, the traditional fiscal conservative Conservatives, the red Tories??


I think you're voting for all of them, and hopefully Erin is strong enough to keep them in check and remind them that a responsible center left "Conservative" government is far better than the alternatives.
O'Toole is a compromise leader, and he's running to get elected.

Harper seemed to do just fight with a slight right platform.

Myself, I want an actual liberal/conservative option, but we don't have one right now.
The reason that instant runoff/ranked ballot won't happen, is that the major parties don't want to lose their grip on power.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, the weather is about last on my list too.
> 
> ltr


Fifty five million years ago, there were more than 1,000 parts per million (ppm) of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere," said Professor Stephen Pekar, of City University of New York. "That heated the world enough to melt all its ice caps. Sea levels would have been almost 200ft higher than today. "

At present, there are 390ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere, a rise – caused by emissions from power plants, factories and lorries – from preindustrial levels of around 280ppm. This has already raised global temperatures by almost 1C. At its present rate of increase – around 2ppm a year - it will still take a long time to reach 1,000ppm.

But we should take little comfort from that, added Pekar. "By the time we get to 500ppm we will start to see major melting of the ice caps."


----------



## damian13ster

"New polling done exclusively for Global News by Ipsos found 30 per cent of respondents said the best thing to do is keep spending on government programs even if it means prolonged deficits. Another 33 per cent said the focus should be on balancing the budget, even if it means spending cuts or tax increases, while 37 per cent said lowering taxes would be the best path forward."


Promising results.


----------



## damian13ster

Liberals losing at the expense of NDP. Will Liberal base decide to vote NDP to stop Conservatives?
PPC gaining. Bit dangerous but not yet at alarming levels.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> View attachment 22068
> 
> 
> Liberals losing at the expense of NDP. Will Liberal base decide to vote NDP to stop Conservatives?
> PPC gaining. Bit dangerous but not yet at alarming levels.


It's the ABC movement, and it played fine once before.

Really this is where ranked ballot would help.
Then there would be no reason to vote strategically.

Under normal circumstances the Liberal vote should flow to the NDP to "stop" the Conservatives, but with their left leaning platform, the CPC isn't really much for a reasonable Liberal voter to be afraid of.

I think O'Toole was easy to underestimate, but from what I'm hearing people seem reasonably impressed.


----------



## damian13ster

Exactly.
O'Toole's platform is left-wing so hard to make it into a bogeyman.
Just need to avoid blunders like Scheer's 'I believe this but don't believe I can impose my opinion on Canadians' and the ABC shouldn't apply this election.
Especially since there is genuine excitement in NDP. Singh now is Trudeau-2015. Promising pie in the sky, yet never had any important positions so one can't verify whether it is BS or not.
If Liberals want ABC - they need to deserve their party and PM


----------



## sags

The ABC strategy is done at the grass roots level.

The more likely scenario is for NDP voters to vote Liberal in close ridings to stop the Conservative candidate from winning.

The Liberals still top the projected seat wins, followed by the CPC and the NDP.

Singh's pronouncement that he will work with either party will cost the NDP votes. He may be willing to work with the CPC, but NDP supporters aren't.

Even if the Conservatives win the most seats, the NDP and Liberals will form a coalition government. They have shown they can work together.

I see zero chance of a Conservative minority government retaining power, with NDP support.

Progressives have enjoyed a Liberal minority government propped up by the NDP. They got more done than they would have otherwise.

A Liberal minority isn't the end of the world for progressives. It will be big trouble for O'Toole though.


----------



## damian13ster

Why? Why not Liberal voters vote NDP?
Singh is more liked than Trudeau
NDP is quickly closing in on Liberals in polls.
Anything but Trudeau is very much an option too with all 3 parties being on the left now and after the disaster Trudeau was in past 6 years.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Progressives have enjoyed a Liberal minority government propped up by the NDP. They got more done than they would have otherwise.


Typo, I think you meant "Regressives have enjoyed a Liberal minority government propped up by the NDP".


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Why? Why not Liberal voters vote NDP?
> Singh is more liked than Trudeau
> NDP is quickly closing in on Liberals in polls.
> Anything but Trudeau is very much an option too with all 3 parties being on the left now and after the disaster Trudeau was in past 6 years.


NDP voters and Conservative voters are at opposite ends of social issues.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> NDP voters and Conservative voters are at opposite ends of social issues.


Do name the social issues where the platforms differ? There are economic issues where they do, but not a social ones.
Social issues are pretty much set in Canada and not a single party is contesting them.
That's where you missed the boat completely. You are stuck in the 90s with your mentality.
We have three left wing major parties in Canada. Now the choices are simply left vs extreme left


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Typo, I think you meant "Regressives have enjoyed a Liberal minority government propped up by the NDP".


Yeah. They enjoyed it so much only 29.9% actually have Trudeau as preferred PM
If ABC vote happens (doubtful) then it will got to NDP, not Liberals


----------



## sags

The CPC haven't moved from their policies on social issues, despite what Erin O'Toole says.

The party is pro fossil fuel development, anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-end of life legislation, anti-gun control, anti-immigration, anti-social programs. 

Their policies are diametrically opposed by NDP supporters.

Do you think NDP supporters have forgotten Harper's last 4 years in office ? Do you think they can be so easily fooled by Erin O'Toole ?

There isn't a snowball chance in hell of NDP supporters rushing to elect CPC candidates.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The CPC haven't moved from their policies on social issues, despite what Erin O'Toole says.
> 
> Their party platform is pro fossil fuel development, anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-end of life legislation, anti-gun control, anti-immigration, anti-social programs. Their policies are diametrically opposed by NDP supporters.
> 
> Do you think NDP supporters have forgotten Harper's last 4 years in office ? Do you think they can be so easily fooled by Erin O'Toole ?


Lol, you are stuck in the 90s.
Things change, evolve. Get out of your house from time to time, read election platforms, talk with people.
Everyone is moving further to the left. NDP, Liberals, and Conservatives.
They aren't anti-abortion and anti-LGBTQ rights. 
Their platform has plenty of social programs (way too many for my liking but they are moving left unfortunately), there is zero issues with immigration.
You are making stuff up or haven't left your house since the 90s. Open your mind up a little bit. World is changing around you. Accept it


----------



## sags

And when did this great transformation of the CPC party take place ?

O'Toole is so desperate to hang onto his right wing supporters that he dropped Harper's name in to his "new" climate change denier policy.

Next O'Toole will be back to fondly hugging all the good old Stephen Harper policies.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> And when did this great transformation of the CPC party take place ?


Like every single transformation. Over time. There really isn't a single inflection point - all changes happen over time. You could see significantly more left wing policies in 2011 election (I only followed Canadian politics since 2007). And with each year it sped up. Right now they are very far left of center. Just not as far as Liberals and NDP


----------



## sags

There hasn't been an inflection point for the Cons, because they haven't changed.

They are wolves in sheep clothing.......but we can see them. I used to be a werewolf but I am all right nnnnooooooooooowwwww.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> There hasn't been an inflection point for the Cons, because they haven't changed.
> 
> They are wolves in sheep clothing.......but we can see them.


I don't know how many personalities you have to call yourself 'we', but the polls are showing that Canadians prefer left vs far left. 
They no longer buy BS that Trudeau is selling.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

A protester holding a 'F*** TRUDEAU' flag speaks with a Ontario Provincial policeman in Bolton after the cancellation of a campaign event for Liberal Prime Minister Justin Trudeau


----------



## Ukrainiandude

No wonder they canceled.
This part wasn’t on CTV








IMG_6518


Watch "IMG_6518" on Streamable.




streamable.com


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> No wonder they canceled.
> This part wasn’t on CTV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_6518
> 
> 
> Watch "IMG_6518" on Streamable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> streamable.com


Disgusting behavior.
You can heckle with some humor and class.
That was not it.


----------



## gibor365

Conservatives opening up an advantage as Liberal support declines: Nanos data


The Conservatives have opened up an advantage as Liberal support declined over the past three days of the campaign, according to nightly tracking conducted by Nanos Research.



www.google.ca


----------



## damian13ster

Rules are for the peasants:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1431262801545371652


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Rules are for the peasants:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1431262801545371652


Max Bernier would be arrested for such thing, but “*All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”*


----------



## damian13ster

damian13ster said:


> Disgusting behavior.
> You can heckle with some humor and class.
> That was not it.


French found a great way to protest the segregation








Tak Francuzi bojkotują obostrzenia W restauracjach zasiadać mogą tylko osoby zaszczepione, co nie podoba się wielu Francuzom. Część z nich dała temu wyraz w nietypowy sposób


Demotywatory.pl – dowcipnie, ironicznie i prawdziwie o rzeczach niekoniecznie ważnych




demotywatory.pl


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Disgusting behavior.
> You can heckle with some humor and class.
> That was not it.


Can you imagine a crowd that hostile getting that close to the US president?

And agreed that it is classless. I think it is right for them to protest him, but to make it basically just entirely about weird sexual insults/innuendo is just not going to convince many others--which is kind of the point of protest isn't it? I wouldn't do this to any politician no matter how much I disliked them.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> And when did this great transformation of the CPC party take place ?
> 
> O'Toole is so desperate to hang onto his right wing supporters that he dropped Harper's name in to his "new" climate change denier policy.
> 
> Next O'Toole will be back to fondly hugging all the good old Stephen Harper policies.


Under O'Toole.
This platform is a dramatic shift, he has to deliver big to justify abandoning the party like this.


----------



## sags

The latest poll numbers from the 338 poll of polls.

Probability of the Liberals winning a majority .......17% 
Probability of the Conservatives winning a majority.........2%

Probability of the Liberals winning the most seats but not a majority........ 49%
Probability of the Conservatives winning the most seats but not a majority.........31%


----------



## sags

Given the poll numbers it looks like a Liberal minority supported by the NDP.

It isn't the result the Liberals had hoped for, but it would be a win and they would retain power.

A minority government worked out well the past 2 years and I see no reason for that to change.

Progressives would be happy with that result.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Given the poll numbers it looks like a Liberal minority supported by the NDP.
> 
> It isn't the result the Liberals had hoped for, but it would be a win and they would retain power.
> 
> A minority government worked out well the past 2 years and I see no reason for that to change.
> 
> Progressives would be happy with that result.


Where did you get that information from?










Interestingly, we are getting to a point where Liberal and NDP combined are projected to get 174 seats.
If BQ gains any inroads in Quebec, or CPC in Ontario/BC then there will need to be 3-party coalition to govern


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Where did you get that information from?
> 
> View attachment 22074
> 
> 
> Interestingly, we are getting to a point where Liberal and NDP combined are projected to get 174 seats.
> If BQ gains any inroads in Quebec, or CPC in Ontario/BC then there will need to be 3-party coalition to govern


And new elections?!


----------



## sags

The latest from the the CBC poll tracker.

The Conservatives have moved ahead in overall voting, but the Liberals lead in most seats projected to win.

It is pretty much the same as the results of the 2019 election, except there is some movement to the NDP from the Liberals.

The Conservatives have gained on the Liberals, but the Liberal/NDP combination is about the same as the last election.

In other words, people are actually moving from the progressive Liberals, to the more progressive NDP.

The Liberals, NDP and Green capturet 62% of the popular polls while the Conservatives are at 33%. The Bloc and "others" make up the rest.

It is clear that people want a more progressive government.........not less. I suspect it is younger generation voters making their voices heard.

_For the first time in nearly 18 months, the Conservatives have moved ahead in voting intentions. *The Liberals are still favoured to win the most seats*, but have been trending down as the Conservatives rise. The New Democrats are maintaining their support and are poised to make gains, while the Bloc Québécois and Greens have less support than they did in 2019. The People's Party has risen to 4.3 per cent, placing them ahead of the Greens nationwide. 



https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


_


----------



## sags

Given how the polling is going, it would be a good time to introduce a Guaranteed Basic Income.

People seeking a more progressive government would be responsive in a positive way to such a change.

The times they are a'changing as the younger generations flex their political muscles.

They are the voters elevating climate change, affordable housing, and wealth and income inequality to top level status.


----------



## damian13ster

Introducing that would be admission of defeat. Waiving a white flag and admitting you are unprepared, have no program, and are absolutely clueless about the job after 6 years of pretending to know what you were doing
There aren't enough lunatics in Canada who believe now is the right time to introduce it.


----------



## AltaRed

338 Canada is the place for the best weighted average polling information.


----------



## sags

The CPC would be the only party that would oppose a Guaranteed Basic Income and they only have the support of 33% of Canadians.


----------



## gibor365

AltaRed said:


> 338 Canada is the place for the best weighted average polling information.


Agree! And as per 338Canada, Cons and Libs seat projection is identical at 139. 
And odds winning most seats is 50 vs 49%


----------



## sags

Add in the NDP and Green........and you have a progressive majority of voters.

Neither of those parties would support a Conservative minority. The gaps in ideology are just too wide.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Add in the NDP and Green........and you have a progressive majority of voters.
> 
> Neither of those parties would support a Conservative minority. The gaps in ideology are just too wide.


Green will get maximum 2 seat, as well as PPC. NDP said they may consider coalition with both major parties.
The Libs problem is a trend, every day they losing more and more. 
It’s very surprising for me, I thought Canadoare not going to wake up ever!


----------



## andrewf

I think it's still premature to predict the outcome. The polls are shifting a lot. As the narrative shifts to potential Conservative victory, expect the fear mongering to ramp up (rightly or wrongly) and some people will re-evaluate their choices.

I think O'Toole's climate policy is a joke, anyone who thinks the Liberal and Conservative plan are equivalent is sorely mistaken.


----------



## damian13ster

Every climate policy is a joke.
Nothing but empty words.
Liberals increased emissions during their tenure
The way to decrease emissions is what Trump did in USA (emissions decreased there despite increase in O&G production) - release private sector, encourage R&D.
The single most climate friendly policy imho would be giving companies complete freedom over investment depreciation rules.
Meanwhile Canadian government is dead set on destroying innovation and investment. Real estate agent fees are higher than entire R&D spending in entire country.

The single worst possible climate policy is stopping oil and gas development in countries like USA and Canada.
Biden is working hard on that, and now he is asking OPEC to produce more.
Meanwhile environmental standards in OPEC:


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I think it's still premature to predict the outcome. The polls are shifting a lot. As the narrative shifts to potential Conservative victory, expect the fear mongering to ramp up (rightly or wrongly) and some people will re-evaluate their choices.
> 
> I think O'Toole's climate policy is a joke, anyone who thinks the Liberal and Conservative plan are equivalent is sorely mistaken.


Obviously they are no equivalent! Liberals just want tax grab with their ridiculous carbon tax!
_Independent analysis, conducted by Navius Research, found that the plan (Conservatives) would be expected to achieve substantially the same emissions reductions as the government’s current plan in 2030, while resulting in a boost to jobs and the economy. _


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Every climate policy is a joke.
> Nothing but empty words.
> Liberals increased emissions during their tenure
> The way to decrease emissions is what Trump did in USA (emissions decreased there despite increase in O&G production) - release private sector, encourage R&D.
> The single most climate friendly policy imho would be giving companies complete freedom over investment depreciation rules.
> Meanwhile Canadian government is dead set on destroying innovation. Real estate agent fees are higher than entire R&D spending in entire country.


This is for sure! Canada's share of global emissions was *1.5% in 2018* !
So, if even All Canada implements Amish's life style , nothing will change


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> This is for sure! Canada's share of global emissions was *1.5% in 2018* !
> So, if even All Canada implements Amish's life style , nothing will change


That's not even the biggest problem. The demand is driven by consumers. Killing industry and jobs, which are done with strict environmental regulations in USA and Canada simply results in more of that:








Nothing but posturing with net negative results on environment. But yeah, posturing is more important than actual results


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Obviously they are no equivalent! Liberals just want tax grab with their ridiculous carbon tax!
> _Independent analysis, conducted by Navius Research, found that the plan (Conservatives) would be expected to achieve substantially the same emissions reductions as the government’s current plan in 2030, while resulting in a boost to jobs and the economy. _


Kind of absurd, as O'Toole is instead of giving the money you spend on carbon tax back to you as a refund, not tied to how much carbon you produce, instead forces you to buy a limited set of products with it, like a bad credit card reward program. And like a loyalty program, the more you burn the more you earn.

O'Toole is also talking about spending $10B+ on various subsidy programs, including $5B for white elephant carbon capture and storage. In other words, a big gift to the oil and gas industry for enhanced recovery technology.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Kind of absurd, as O'Toole is instead of giving the money you spend on carbon tax back to you as a refund, not tied to how much carbon you produce, instead forces you to buy a limited set of products with it, like a bad credit card reward program. And like a loyalty program, the more you burn the more you earn.
> 
> O'Toole is also talking about spending $10B+ on various subsidy programs, including $5B for white elephant carbon capture and storage. In other words, a big gift to the oil and gas industry for enhanced recovery technology.


If Trudeau is giving back money from carbon tax, why this tax is needed at all?! Why do we need government middleman to take part of this tax?


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> climate policy is a joke, anyone who thinks the Liberal and Conservative plan are equivalent is sorely mistaken


If one worries about climate they should vote green, as Germans do.


----------



## damian13ster

Ukrainiandude said:


> If one worries about climate they should vote green, as Germans do.


If anyone is worried about climate they should
a) decrease their own usage
b) learn science and research new initiatives
c) invest/donate to companies/organizations making existing products more efficient.

Voting any single party has very little effect on climate, unless that party promotes innovation and research.
Spending on R&D in 2018 was the lowest it has been in 25 years.
We are far below OECD countries average


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> If one worries about climate they should vote green, as Germans do.


If you're Christian you should vote for Christian Heritage?


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> If anyone is worried about climate they should
> a) decrease their own usage
> b) learn science and research new initiatives
> c) invest/donate to companies/organizations making existing products more efficient.
> 
> Voting any single party has very little effect on climate, unless that party promotes innovation and research.


If you're worried about crime you should start a neighbourhood watch and get some vigilante justice George Zimmerman style?


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> If you're worried about crime you should start a neighbourhood watch and get some vigilante justice George Zimmerman style?


No, not commit a crime, join/fund the first responders, and contribute to crime-prevention initiatives.
Equivalent to 
Pollute less, invest/donate to companies/organizations making existing products more efficient.

Clearly Liberals turned out to be complete failure on climate.
The numbers don't lie. They raised emissions while in power


----------



## diharv

gibor365 said:


> This is for sure! Canada's share of global emissions was *1.5% in 2018* !
> So, if even All Canada implements Amish's life style , nothing will change


But then the world will look at us and enviously proclaim " Look, Mr Locks and Socks economically and socially destroyed his own country for the good of the entire world. We must follow suit!"


----------



## gibor365

diharv said:


> But then the world will look at us and enviously proclaim " Look, Mr Locks and Socks economically and socially destroyed his own country for the good of the entire world. We must follow suit!"


I don’t recall 1 case when other countries followed example of Canada 😁


andrewf said:


> If you're Christian you should vote for Christian Heritage?


And what you should vote if you are Jewish?! Lol


----------



## damian13ster

diharv said:


> But then the world will look at us and enviously proclaim " Look, Mr Locks and Socks economically and socially destroyed his own country for the good of the entire world. We must follow suit!"


More like Mr Locks and Socks turned this:









Into this:









We are moving production from a place that has strict environmental laws to a place that doesn't give a **** and then needs to ship it worldwide using fuel oil.

There is no logic in that whatsoever, but hey, easier to posture with 100x the pollution beyond the eyesight.

The question voters should ask when it comes to environmental policy is:

do they want proven failure of last 6 years (it is proven failure - emission INCREASED)
or do they want to try different approach


----------



## sags

Behold......how the pipe dream of the NDP supporting the Conservatives is rightly laid open to ridicule.

Their party supporters couldn't be any further apart on top issues like climate change.

Despite what Jagmeet might muse to the media, he knows full well his leadership would fall if he actually supported a Conservative agenda.

Behind the scenes, Liberal and NDP party officials are already hashing out the possible terms of endearment.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> do they want proven failure of last 6 years (it is proven failure - emission INCREASED)


I never thought it was all that compelling an argument, but it turns out your premise looks to be incorrect:






Greenhouse gas emissions - Canada.ca


Climate change is one of the most important environmental issues of our time. Climate change is caused by the increase in concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. These increases are primarily due to human activities such as the use of fossil fuels or agriculture. The indicators...




www.canada.ca













So, essentially flat, and declining in per capita terms.


----------



## damian13ster

There is a reason Singh is not dismissing the idea:

Conservative policies are left wing
Liberal + NDP combined might not have enough seats to form government when dust settles. In that case NDPs only chance are Conservatives


----------



## andrewf

Of course, outside of AB/SK, emissions have largely been declining. Ontario doing the heavy lifting.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> I never thought it was all that compelling an argument, but it turns out your premise looks to be incorrect:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greenhouse gas emissions - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Climate change is one of the most important environmental issues of our time. Climate change is caused by the increase in concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. These increases are primarily due to human activities such as the use of fossil fuels or agriculture. The indicators...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, essentially flat, and declining in per capita terms.


No it isn't.
Math is relatively simple so not sure why are you trying to reinvent it:
If you choose 2015 (you shouldn't looking at when they actually came into power), then you have 
730>723.
If you choose 2016 (first year in which majority of the year was under Liberal rule)
Then you have 
730>707.
Not essentially flat - increase.
Somehow United States managed to decrease their gross emissions.
So did EU
Only Liberals in Canada failed


----------



## Ukrainiandude

andrewf said:


> If you're Christian you should vote for Christian Heritage?


If your faith is more important to you than climate then yes.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Of course, outside of AB/SK, emissions have largely been declining. Ontario doing the heavy lifting.


Those bars are in 2005 -2019.
So include Harper government.
As you can see from the plot I have previously attached, Harper actually decreased gross emissions in Canada, and that is despite growth population in Canada being faster under Harper than under Trudeau.









Trudeau increased them.
You trying to credit Harper's decrease in emissions to Trudeau, who actually increased them is disingenuous


Yes - Trudeau has been worse for environment than both Harper and Trump. 
Talk is cheap. Actual results speak volumes.
Liberals turned out to be a disaster for environment


----------



## damian13ster

QP interview: NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh on Afghanistan, taxing the super rich, and universal pharmacare


In the first of a series of interviews with Canada’s major federal party leaders, Question Period Host Evan Solomon talks to NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh about Afghanistan, taxing the super rich, and universal pharmacare.



www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> QP interview: NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh on Afghanistan, taxing the super rich, and universal pharmacare
> 
> 
> In the first of a series of interviews with Canada’s major federal party leaders, Question Period Host Evan Solomon talks to NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh about Afghanistan, taxing the super rich, and universal pharmacare.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


He’s is a communist clown 🤣.
Singh is keep repeating about “free ride for billionaires” ... in cañada there are 45 billionaires in total. Top 3 have foreign citizenships: UK, Taiwan/Hong Kong, Germany....
Sure, try to still money from them and they just gonna move all their businesses abroad


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> No it isn't.
> Math is relatively simple so not sure why are you trying to reinvent it:
> If you choose 2015 (you shouldn't looking at when they actually came into power), then you have
> 730>723.
> If you choose 2016 (first year in which majority of the year was under Liberal rule)
> Then you have
> 730>707.
> Not essentially flat - increase.
> Somehow United States managed to decrease their gross emissions.
> So did EU
> Only Liberals in Canada failed


Ah yes, and there is no measurement error at all, eh?


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> If your faith is more important to you than climate then yes.


Nope, as you said, if you care at all about climate policy, vote green. If you accept Jesus as your lord and personal saviour, vote Christian Heritage. Otherwise you're a godless heathen.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> You trying to credit Harper's decrease in emissions to Trudeau, who actually increased them is disingenuous


Harper achieved those emission reductions by causing the global financial crisis. Good job, Harper!


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Ah yes, and there is no measurement error at all, eh?


Ahh, so you have your ideology-driven belief, and when faced with data that shows to the contrary you will describe the date as faulty or fake?
This is data from Canadian government, not some shady website doing estimations.
But of course, if your faith is more important than facts and evidence then there is nothing that can be done about that.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> Harper achieved those emission reductions by causing the global financial crisis. Good job, Harper!


Did he now?
Entire GDP from financial crisis has been recovered by 2010.
Emissions in 2010-2015 (significant economic and population growth period) were still lower than any of the years immediately before Harper took power.
There are literally facts staring at your face and everyone can see them within 2 pages of posts. Why do you make stuff up? There is nothing wrong with reevaluating your opinion if it was based on faulty assumptions, given actual data. That's what grown-ups do.


----------



## cainvest

damian13ster said:


> Somehow United States managed to decrease their gross emissions.


Ya, somehow ... easy to do when you're poluting so much.


----------



## fstamand

Last night, Radio Canada had the leaders on for approx 30 min each. My take on it:

Justin Trudeau was on the defensive his whole turn. He didn't mention anything about his platform (or lack thereof). I almost feel like he wants out. He lost my vote for casting an election without even a platform. Reminds me of Harper.

Erin O'Toole was the best of all 5 in my leftie opinion. He presented his liberal platform which screamed "please love me quebecois!". It amazes me how all over sudden, cons now admit climate changes and are pro choice. Whatever. It's easy to see it's all lies to get the left Quebec voters. ABC.

Yves Francois Blanchette -- what a straight shooter. Says it like it is. But certainly never going to win anything, just rob left seats in favor of cons. Whatever keeps JT at bay 😋

Jagmeet Singh was great, love his enthusiasm and I think there might actually be another orange wave in Quebec. But do we need more spending? I'm not convinced he has the skills to run a nation.

Annamie Paul -- she spent most of her airtime trying to convince viewers that her party is not dead. Well it is. NDP is "green enough" for most environmentalists. RIP

Can't wait to see the debates.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Ahh, so you have your ideology-driven belief, and when faced with data that shows to the contrary you will describe the date as faulty or fake?
> This is data from Canadian government, not some shady website doing estimations.
> But of course, if your faith is more important than facts and evidence then there is nothing that can be done about that.


I see a flat line, and say that emissions have been largely flat. You see 1-2% oscilation and say "look, not exactly the same". Nevermind, per capita emissions have declined steadily.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Did he now?
> Entire GDP from financial crisis has been recovered by 2010.
> Emissions in 2010-2015 (significant economic and population growth period) were still lower than any of the years immediately before Harper took power.
> There are literally facts staring at your face and everyone can see them within 2 pages of posts. Why do you make stuff up? There is nothing wrong with reevaluating your opinion if it was based on faulty assumptions, given actual data. That's what grown-ups do.


Most emissions reductions happened in Ontario--emissions rose massively in AB/SK during his tenure. Why not give McGuinty/Wynne the credit? It was their government that phased out coal from Ontario's electricity mix.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Harper achieved those emission reductions by causing the global financial crisis. Good job, Harper!


It's pretty much expected that turning off the economy will significantly reduce emissions.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> I see a flat line, and say that emissions have been largely flat. You see 1-2% oscilation and say "look, not exactly the same". Nevermind, per capita emissions have declined steadily.


That is not per capita emissions. That is per GDP emissions. Completely different things as GDP is heavily influenced by inflation. If you keep the same output, the GDP is going to increase by 50% in the 20 year time period on inflation alone


----------



## sags

O'Toole has made an amazing transformation.

Since his election as leader, he has swiftly evolved from a hard line reformer worm to a liberal butterfly.

The problem is that he doesn't appear to have any support from his party or MPs for anything that he is saying.

The silence among his MPs is deafening.......except for the odd ones who broadcast pictures of Trudeau wearing a noose and others protesting against vaccines.

There are unexplained gaps between his party policy and his "personal" beliefs. Trust me........and not my party, he appears to be saying.

O'Toole says he will allow individual MP votes on issues, so his personal opinion may not be worth much and any trust in it would be misplaced.

He is out on the ledge all by his lonesome.


----------



## damian13ster

Not really. The silence among MPs is planned, and smart.
They are active in their own ridings (I had a visit during this election period already) but not on national scale.
O'Toole didn't have name recognition out there before election. He is still trailing Singh and Trudeau on that. He is also well-spoken and relatively smart.
Therefore the best conservatives can do is to have entire spotlight on him.
Don't need party clackers nodding their heads in the background - that's useless


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> O'Toole has made an amazing transformation.
> 
> Since his election as leader, he has swiftly evolved from a hard line reformer worm to a liberal butterfly.


he was never a hardline reformer.



> The problem is that he doesn't appear to have any support from his party or MPs for anything that he is saying.


His platform doesn't have my support, but it's better than the alternative. That's the only way it will get my vote.




> O'Toole says he will allow individual MP votes on issues, so his personal opinion may not be worth much and any trust in it would be misplaced.


Trudeau said he would allow more free votes, he was simply lying.


----------



## sags

O'Toole was a cabinet minister in the Harper government, who was the leader of the Reform Party.

O'Toole is just saying anything that will get him elected, and then he will do the same as Harper and implement a Reformer agenda.

The only thing that held Harper back for years was he didn't have a majority. Once he got the majority..............look out Canada.


----------



## sags

The Liberals have opened up a bit more lead on the number of seats they are projected to win.

They now lead by 143 to 130, and have a large lead of 59% to 41% in the odds of winning the election.

O'Toole's lead in overall vote total increased marginally, but the Conservative vote isn't as efficient as the Liberals in winning seats.

Unless something major league happens, it appears a repeat of the 2019 election.

Some will call that result a waste of time and money, but not really. It confirms that Canadians approve of the Liberal minority and want it to continue as it has.

Canadians appear content to have the NDP nudging the Liberals a little further left on the issues. 

It doesn't support the idea that Canadians want major changes.



https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The Liberals have opened up a bit more lead on the number of seats they are projected to win.
> 
> 
> 
> https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


Huh? Latest update went from 126-177 August 28 to 123-173 Aug 29 to 121-173 for Liberals Aug 30
Conservatives: 104-144 Aug 28 to 107-151 Aug 29 and Aug 30










Latest update on probability of winning: 62-37 to 58-41


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> O'Toole was a cabinet minister in the Harper government, who was the leader of the Reform Party.
> 
> O'Toole is just saying anything that will get him elected, and then he will do the same as Harper and implement a Reformer agenda.
> 
> The only thing that held Harper back for years was he didn't have a majority. Once he got the majority..............look out Canada.


I hope O'toole is saying what will get him elected.
I was disappointed that Harper ran a bit too far left, but that was the trade off, and it was ok.
Harper was incredibly pragmatic, both politically and in actual policy. 

As far as O'Toole, what crazy far right policy did he implement as Minister of VA?


----------



## sags

The seat projections for today are clear .........143 Liberal, 130 Conservative, 38 NDP, 26 Bloc, 1 Green.

The Green will support the Liberals so that makes them 144.

The Liberals only need the NDP to maintain power. It would give them 172 seats (170 needed for majority)

Conservatives need both the NDP and Bloc to gain power. Conservative and NDP would be 168, so they would need Bloc support.

A Conservative minority also assumes that leader Singh could deliver the whole caucus to the Conservatives. That may be wishful thinking.

At this point it looks like a repeat of 2019, which isn't that surprising considering the election was just before the pandemic and everyone's focus is on that.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> That is not per capita emissions. That is per GDP emissions. Completely different things as GDP is heavily influenced by inflation. If you keep the same output, the GDP is going to increase by 50% in the 20 year time period on inflation alone


Look at the blue line, and the legend.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> he was never a hardline reformer.


He pretended to be more conservative in the leadership race. Or maybe he's pretending to be more moderate now. Who knows.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> He pretended to be more conservative in the leadership race. Or maybe he's pretending to be more moderate now. Who knows.


I didn't rank him highly during Scheer leadership campaign because of his leftward tilt, like he wasn't Chung, but he is definitely a leftwinger by Conservative standards.


----------



## andrewf

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-conservative-leadership-how-otoole-won-1.5697358


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-conservative-leadership-how-otoole-won-1.5697358


O'Toole won because
1. He isn't Peter Mackay
2. Derek Sloan is an extremist.
3. Leslyn Lewis (my first choice personally) is too right wing for the Conservative party.

It was basically a choice between Mackay and O'Toole, the right leaning candidates never really stood a chance.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> O'Toole won because
> 1. He isn't Peter Mackay
> 2. Derek Sloan is an extremist.
> 3. Leslyn Lewis (my first choice personally) is too right wing for the Conservative party.
> 
> It was basically a choice between Mackay and O'Toole, the right leaning candidates never really stood a chance.


Leslyn Lewis was my 1st choice too!


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> O'Toole won because
> 1. He isn't Peter Mackay
> 2. Derek Sloan is an extremist.
> *3. Leslyn Lewis (my first choice personally) is too right wing for the Conservative party.*
> 
> It was basically a choice between Mackay and O'Toole, the right leaning candidates never really stood a chance.


So much for your ridiculous claims to be a liberal.


----------



## damian13ster

Adam Zivo: Why the Conservative housing plan really is better than the others


The national housing affordability crisis has put homeownership out of reach for many Canadians, particularly younger ones. Those locked out of ownership find…




nationalpost.com





Opinion piece. so has bias, but all numbers have external references so with some extra work, facts can be extracted and verified (they are largely accurate if anyone is too lazy to verify)


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> So much for your ridiculous claims to be a liberal.


How so? I'm liberal, not "a Liberal"
I think you're confused because liberalism is now considered "right wing"
Personal responsibility == far right, at least according to some.

She is an educated intelligent immigrant who addresses many issues I care about.

I'm not in complete agreement, but most of her policies made sense.


----------



## sags

I think you are the one who is confused.

Conservatives should stay on their own side of the playing field, so we can keep a good watch on them.

We don't want them wandering around aimlessly disrupting our well designed and executed playbook of success.


----------



## sags

Maybe you are a spy....sent to the Liberal side by the Toronto Sun media obsession with Trudeau holding back some announcements of the Liberal platform.

Have no fear.........all will be revealed at the appropriate time and people will be thrilled and amazed.

Maybe an announcement or two revealed on the debate stage.........oh what a glorious day that would be.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> We don't want them wandering around aimlessly disrupting our well designed and executed playbook of success.





https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ipsos-poll-canadian-federal-election-anger-1.6158637



Calling an election nobody wants, during the pandemic.
That's EXACTLY the playbook we're trying to defeat.


----------



## fstamand

MrMatt said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ipsos-poll-canadian-federal-election-anger-1.6158637
> 
> 
> 
> Calling an election nobody wants, during the pandemic.
> That's EXACTLY the playbook we're trying to defeat.


Pandemic aside, lord Harper did the same. I suspect it was ok then because it was conservatives?


----------



## damian13ster

fstamand said:


> Pandemic aside, lord Harper did the same. I suspect it was ok then because it was conservatives?


His post was literally about election DURING pandemic. 
Putting pandemic aside changes the entire post so don't draw conclusions off of it


----------



## andrewf

Many provinces held elections during the past year. I don't think we suspend democracy just because we're in the back stretch of a pandemic.


----------



## damian13ster

There is a difference between scheduled election cycle and calling an early election


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Many provinces held elections during the past year. I don't think we suspend democracy just because we're in the back stretch of a pandemic.


I agree that we shouldn't suspend democracy, (though Trudeau tried).
But to call an early election during the 4th wave of the pandemic was just dumb.
I guess he was hoping to ride the post pandemic euphoria, on how well he did.

The thing I find most troubling is that it seems he actually thinks he's doing a good job.


----------



## andrewf

We've had 5 provincial/territorial elections during the pandemic, several of them unscheduled.


----------



## damian13ster

Difference between Liberal and Conservative treatment of sexual harassment allegations:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-candidate-allegations-inappropriate-behaviour-female-staffers-1.6157917










Conservative Party of Canada candidate quits over sexual assault allegation | Globalnews.ca


Tory Myers has been accused of sexual assault that allegedly took place in 2019. He is denying the allegation, but the party has told him to step down.




globalnews.ca







And the economy:








Canadian economy shrank by 1.1% in second quarter of 2021, Statistics Canada says - National | Globalnews.ca


The preliminary figure, which will be finalized Tuesday morning for the second quarter, left total economic activity about two per cent below pre-pandemic levels in Feb. 2020.




globalnews.ca


----------



## sags

Oh no......Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant has grabbed the election headlines from Erin O'Toole.

What you gonna do Mr. O'Toole ? Reporters are going to keep asking over and over and over. The story is front page news !

Can a leader who can't control his caucus run a country...... a nation wonders.









COMMENTARY: Erin O’Toole’s soft stance on the Cheryl Gallants of the Conservative Party sends the wrong message - National | Globalnews.ca


O’Toole must denounce violent rhetoric in no uncertain terms, both for the sake of civility in Canadian politics and for the Conservative Party’s future, writes Lori Turnbull.




globalnews.ca


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Oh no......Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant has grabbed the election headlines from Erin O'Toole.
> 
> What you gonna do Mr. O'Toole ? Reporters are going to keep asking over and over and over. The story is front page news !
> 
> Can a leader who can't control his caucus run a country...... a nation wonders.


Why does he have to do anything?
Ignoring sexual assault is fine for Liberals
Surely ignoring stupid comments won't hurt Conservatives

You focus on weird things. GDP in Canada dropped in Q2 and we are getting further away from pre-pandemic levels. Other nations are going full steam ahead.


----------



## sags

I am not the one looking weak and ineffective in front of the cameras.

The media got hold of all the past videos on her Youtube channel before they were deleted. It is a hot mess of conspiracy theories.

It reminds people of Andrew Scheer figeting around about his US citizenship and work record.

Every day that O'Toole avoids answering the questions is a bad day for Conservatives.


----------



## sags

"The budget will balance itself".......apparently Trudeau was right. I wonder what Pierre Poilivere will say in his Youtube videos now.

The Conservatives should apologize to the Canadian people for lying about Trudeau's statement, which they now admit was solid economics.

If they refuse to apologize it will reveal they have no credibility.

_Conservative Leader Erin O'Toole promised Tuesday to restore the federal government's fiscal balance over the next decade and eliminate the gargantuan federal deficit "without cuts" to public services.

Asked how we could rein in the eye-popping deficit the government has racked up during the COVID-19 pandemic — the federal deficit for this fiscal year alone is expected to be $381.6 billion — *O'Toole said economic growth will bring more money to Ottawa in the coming years, and the fiscal house will be brought in order through the resulting new tax revenue.*

"We will grow the economy so that we can get back to balance in a responsible and equitable way without cuts. That is our plan," O'Toole said at a campaign event in Ottawa.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/otoole-balanced-budget-no-cuts-1.6159859


_


----------



## sags

Federal poll from Abacus Data:

LPC 33%
CPC 32%
NDP 22%
BQ 8% (34% in Qc)
PPC 3%
GPC 2% → https://338canada.com/polls.htm Abacus Data, Aug. 24-29, 2021


----------



## sags

Two native leaders attend an NDP rally and while standing beside Jagmeet Singh announce they will vote for the Liberal candidate.

Not a great day for opposition parties.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/first-nations-leader-endorse-liberal-candidate-1.6159401


----------



## diharv

There is nobody of sound mind who can willingly suckhole to the LPC like ^ and think all is rosy so internet troll is the only logical explanation.


----------



## sags

Trudeau announced their election platform and it is quite impressive.

A ban on handguns will be well accepted in urban Ontario. Cities have been asking for Federal legislation for awhile.

Increased efforts against climate change, including a $5,000 subsidy for an electric vehicle, will be well accepted by people who care about the planet.

Hiring 7500 more doctors will help relieve pressure in healthcare. More money for nurses, mental health, and hospitals is badly needed.

Mandated access to clinics in every region of the country supports a woman's right to choose.

A small tax on banks and insurance companies, eliminating tax loopholes for the wealthy, and a minimum tax for tax evaders is long overdue.

Support for public broadcasters with a goal of ad free news shows is a positive step towards protecting a trustworthy news source for Canadians.

A new package of programs will make it easier for first time buyers to own a home.

With all the previously announced support for Canadians like $10 a day childcare and increasing OAS for seniors........it is a very impressive package.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-party-election-platform-1.6160918


----------



## andrewf

Apparently O'Toole thinks that the budget will balance itself! What a fool! I'm sure everyone who criticized Trudeau for expressing the same thought will now pile on...


----------



## damian13ster

More and more voters switching from Liberals to NDP



https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Liberals-Conservatives-Remain-Neck-Neck-Tight-Campaign



Apparently Liberals are slowly losing women voters.
Not a surprise since sexual harassment is acceptable by the party


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Apparently O'Toole thinks that the budget will balance itself! What a fool! I'm sure everyone who criticized Trudeau for expressing the same thought will now pile on...


I didn't see that quote, I believe you're misrepresenting what he said.

I guess election disinformation is allowed, as long as it's against the CPC?


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> I didn't see that quote, I believe you're misrepresenting what he said.


Yeah. I give O'Toole 3 Pinocchio's for the statement (technically possible but extremely unlikely)
I give andrewf 2 Pinocchio's for misrepresentation of the statement (not accurate but less manipulation than Twitter of Liberal Party)


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I didn't see that quote, I believe you're misrepresenting what he said.
> 
> I guess election disinformation is allowed, as long as it's against the CPC?


I'm paraphrasing. He said the the CPC will balance the budget in 10 years without spending cuts, through economic growth. It is exactly the same idea that Trudeau was lambasted for. I don't actually disagree with the idea that it is possible, more mocking those who used it as a cudgel on Trudeau, despite it being a reasonable idea. It was economically illiterate to mock the idea that revenue growth can bring the budget back to balance over time.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Yeah. I give O'Toole 3 Pinocchio's for the statement (technically possible but extremely unlikely)
> I give andrewf 2 Pinocchio's for misrepresentation of the statement (not accurate but less manipulation than Twitter of Liberal Party)


There is no daylight between what O'Toole just said and what Trudeau said earlier. It is exactly the same idea.

It is not at all a misrepresentation of what O'Toole said. I did not claim it was a literal quote, hence when I did not use quotation marks.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I'm paraphrasing. He said the the CPC will balance the budget in 10 years without spending cuts, through economic growth. It is exactly the same idea that Trudeau was lambasted for. I don't actually disagree with the idea that it is possible, more mocking those who used it as a cudgel on Trudeau, despite it being a reasonable idea. It was economically illiterate to mock the idea that revenue growth can bring the budget back to balance over time.


It isn't a reasonable idea. The idea that we're going to have significant real GDP growth going forward to pay for all this, plus all the new plans is laughable.

Also the point isn't that Trudeau and O'Toole are both proposing stupid ideas, I agree there.
The point is that Trudeau phrased his in a very funny way that was dismissive of the concern, and highlighted his ignorance/lack of concern.
The fact that he promoted a stupid idea, in such a stupid way is why I thought it was funny.

If he at least pretended to care, it would have been less catchy.


----------



## sags

O'Toole either has no moral compass or a really bad memory.

On several occasions and issues he has advocated for positions that are the same as he railed against Trudeau for holding.

Either way O'Toole isn't qualified to lead Canada if he can't lead a political party.

At least Pierre Poilivere (who can't wait to replace O'Toole) is enjoying watching O'Toole self destruct.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> There is no daylight between what O'Toole just said and what Trudeau said earlier. It is exactly the same idea.
> 
> It is not at all a misrepresentation of what O'Toole said. I did not claim it was a literal quote, hence when I did not use quotation marks.


There is a significant amount of daylight.
To decrease deficits you either cut spending or increase revenue. Ideally both.
You do it efficiently either by cutting spending (most effective, but political suicide) or by making investments with high ROI.
Doesn't take a genius to realize that those are the two ways. The question is whether O'Toole's program will have high (or at least positive) ROI.
If yes, then his statement is not outlandish. If not, then his statement is outlandish.

Trudeau has completely different problem. He is simply stupid.
And it isn't changing. Look at recent responses. Increasing debt to ridiculous amounts, government debt in Canada now above 3 trillion, yet when there is a question about upcoming mandate review for central banks he said he doesn't think about monetary policy. The guy simply doesn't get it


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> There is a significant amount of daylight.
> To decrease deficits you either cut spending or increase revenue. Ideally both.
> You do it efficiently either by cutting spending (most effective, but political suicide) or by making investments with high ROI.
> Doesn't take a genius to realize that those are the two ways. The question is whether O'Toole's program will have high (or at least positive) ROI.
> If yes, then his statement is not outlandish. If not, then his statement is outlandish.
> 
> Trudeau has completely different problem. He is simply stupid.
> And it isn't changing. Look at recent responses. Increasing debt to ridiculous amounts, government debt in Canada now above 3 trillion, yet when there is a question about upcoming mandate review for central banks he said he doesn't think about monetary policy. The guy simply doesn't get it


Sorry the difference in their plans of "let the economy grow to catch up to our spending" is dumb.
They phrased it differently, Trudeau more humourously IMO, but it's a dumb idea.

We've just piled on generational debt, and they intend to keep spending us into a hole for the next decade, they are out of control.
Does anyone really think we'll go a decade (3 elections) without any new programs?


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> Trudeau announced their election platform and it is quite impressive.
> 
> A ban on handguns will be well accepted in urban Ontario. Cities have been asking for Federal legislation for awhile.
> 
> Increased efforts against climate change, including a $5,000 subsidy for an electric vehicle, will be well accepted by people who care about the planet.
> 
> Hiring 7500 more doctors will help relieve pressure in healthcare. More money for nurses, mental health, and hospitals is badly needed.
> 
> Mandated access to clinics in every region of the country supports a woman's right to choose.
> 
> A small tax on banks and insurance companies, eliminating tax loopholes for the wealthy, and a minimum tax for tax evaders is long overdue.
> 
> Support for public broadcasters with a goal of ad free news shows is a positive step towards protecting a trustworthy news source for Canadians.
> 
> A new package of programs will make it easier for first time buyers to own a home.
> 
> With all the previously announced support for Canadians like $10 a day childcare and increasing OAS for seniors........it is a very impressive package.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-party-election-platform-1.6160918


Wow, I just did a quick skim through, and it's impressive on how he managed so spend so much money in such a short time. With my really quick tally of going through the billions he will spend it was over $80 BILLION in his platform. I didn't validate everything, but that is down right frightening. The little bit of extra he might get in the taxes he mentioned will not cover interest costs.

I am truly concerned for my kids, and future great grandkids right now. All this spending short term as the expense of future generations. I will have kids do a full analysis on how much this will cost later and ask them what they think. They should have a say. Will report back later. They are very social liberal in their thoughts, and not very fiscally conservative, but do think about these things fairly critically.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> Wow, I just did a quick skim through, and it's impressive on how he managed so spend so much money in such a short time. With my really quick tally of going through the billions he will spend it was over $80 BILLION in his platform. I didn't validate everything, but that is down right frightening. The little bit of extra he might get in the taxes he mentioned will not cover interest costs.
> 
> I am truly concerned for my kids, and future great grandkids right now. All this spending short term as the expense of future generations. I will have kids do a full analysis on how much this will cost later and ask them what they think. They should have a say. Will report back later. They are very social liberal in their thoughts, and not very fiscally conservative, but do think about these things fairly critically.


yeah that's like $2500/person, or $10k for a family of 4.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Sorry the difference in their plans of "let the economy grow to catch up to our spending" is dumb.
> They phrased it differently, Trudeau more humourously IMO, but it's a dumb idea.
> 
> We've just piled on generational debt, and they intend to keep spending us into a hole for the next decade, they are out of control.
> Does anyone really think we'll go a decade (3 elections) without any new programs?


I don't agree with the lack of cuts at all.
I believe there is, and myself witness, significant amount of fat in public sector that can be cut without cutting front-line services. I do hope that this is what O'Toole had in mind. You can cut cost without cutting front-line services because of amount of inefficiencies currently in the system.
I hope that O'Toole phrased it this way not to commit political suicide, and being fully aware that people who want more efficiencies in the system will never vote Singh or Trudeau anyway, but I am not holding my breath.

Simply pointed out significant difference between phrasing response in such way vs Trudeau who simply doesn't think or care about it. 
He didn't in 2015 and dismissed any question about finances. He doesn't now, seeing how he dismisses any questions and admits never giving it a though (as if he had capability of it) when asked.


----------



## damian13ster

Plugging Along said:


> Wow, I just did a quick skim through, and it's impressive on how he managed so spend so much money in such a short time. With my really quick tally of going through the billions he will spend it was over $80 BILLION in his platform. I didn't validate everything, but that is down right frightening. The little bit of extra he might get in the taxes he mentioned will not cover interest costs.
> 
> I am truly concerned for my kids, and future great grandkids right now. All this spending short term as the expense of future generations. I will have kids do a full analysis on how much this will cost later and ask them what they think. They should have a say. Will report back later. They are very social liberal in their thoughts, and not very fiscally conservative, but do think about these things fairly critically.


Have them learn languages and try to acquire second passport.

The Liberal proposal just shows mental state of Trudeau.
He is running around like a headless chicken.
Throwing jabs at O'Toole in the text of the platform, yet the promises are clearly meant for NDP voters.
Latest polls are showing that if there is ABC vote then it might be Liberals deserting their party to go to NDP, not the other way around, that's why the reckless policies aimed to appeal to NDP voters


----------



## sags

There are a lot of variables in the spending, which I saw was estimated at $70 billion for the full election platform if fully implemented.

The final total depends on the "take up" of things like the $5,000 subsidy to buy an e-vehicle, the estimated loss of revenue from a tax free savings account for a new home, the cost to destroy confiscated or turned over hand guns, etc.etc.

All the parties are advocating spending. The only difference is where the money will be spent.

The main difference between the Liberals and the Conservatives are on social issues, such as women's rights, immigration policy, cliimate change, etc.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I don't agree with the lack of cuts at all.


I don't agree with

Massive spending.
Lack of cuts to bad wasteful programs
Policy to address issues that will only make the situation worse (does anyone have a decent housing policy'?)

In fact the only positive out of his campaign is we might get Trudeau out of office. That's an admirable goal, but really there is very little that they're showing that I can really get behind.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> I don't agree with
> 
> Massive spending.
> Lack of cuts to bad wasteful programs
> Policy to address issues that will only make the situation worse (does anyone have a decent housing policy'?)
> 
> In fact the only positive out of his campaign is we might get Trudeau out of office. That's an admirable goal, but really there is very little that they're showing that I can really get behind.


There really isn't a good housing program.
There are two good housing policies though:
1. Municipalities forced to re-zone to increase housing density near transit with federal funding
2. Repurposing 15% of government real estate for housing.
The latter can actually result in significant amount of savings and additional revenue.

Unfortunately those are only two good solutions I have spotted in all housing programs


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> There really isn't a good housing program.
> There are two good housing policies though:
> 1. Municipalities forced to re-zone to increase housing density near transit with federal funding
> 2. Repurposing 15% of government real estate for housing.
> The latter can actually result in significant amount of savings and additional revenue.
> 
> Unfortunately those are only two good solutions I have spotted in all housing programs


Neither of those will really help.
Like I said, very little to get excited about.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Neither of those will really help.
> Like I said, very little to get excited about.


We will agree to disagree on this one.
I think the latter if done in a smart way can help. The amount of real estate that government has is insane. It is also in very good locations. If genuinely done in a smart way, re-purposing is efficient, then it will be significant increase in supply in areas that need it most - core of the cities.

Of course much more actions are necessary. 
CMHC needs to be phased out. Real estate agents system needs to be reformed to introduce more competition. 
Red tape needs to be removed, utilization of our resources needs to be more efficient, price-fixing (just look at what happened with supply immediately lumber went down) needs to be avoided.
Canada is a country that doesn't value private enterprise and doesn't allow competition. A change in that would help drive down the living costs a lot.

Out of curiosity, what would be your suggestion to fix the housing market?


----------



## sags

Building more expensive homes isn't the solution. They are part of the problem.

A government program to build a massive number of affordable homes has a history of past success.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> We will agree to disagree on this one.
> I think the latter if done in a smart way can help. The amount of real estate that government has is insane. It is also in very good locations. If genuinely done in a smart way, re-purposing is efficient, then it will be significant increase in supply in areas that need it most - core of the cities.
> 
> Of course much more actions are necessary.
> CMHC needs to be phased out. Real estate agents system needs to be reformed to introduce more competition.
> Red tape needs to be removed, utilization of our resources needs to be more efficient, price-fixing (just look at what happened with supply immediately lumber went down) needs to be avoided.
> Canada is a country that doesn't value private enterprise and doesn't allow competition. A change in that would help drive down the living costs a lot.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what would be your suggestion to fix the housing market?


To fix the housing market.
1. Charge higher property tax. When properly tax is <1%, the cities have low revenue and people can afford higher mortgage payments. This will also make holding real estate more expensive.
2. Encourage rentals. Fix rental laws to allow for damage recovery and easier evictions. Remove rent controls
3. Do something about the NIMBYism that keeps new developments from happening.
4. Approve more construction.

These are all Provincial (municipal) jurisdiction.
Really provincial issues have no place in a federal election anyway.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> To fix the housing market.
> 1. Charge higher property tax. When properly tax is <1%, the cities have low revenue and people can afford higher mortgage payments. This will also make holding real estate more expensive.
> 2. Encourage rentals. Fix rental laws to allow for damage recovery and easier evictions. Remove rent controls
> 3. Do something about the NIMBYism that keeps new developments from happening.
> 4. Approve more construction.
> 
> These are all Provincial (municipal) jurisdiction.
> Really provincial issues have no place in a federal election anyway.


That's why the policies I mentioned are actually good.
Because it forces new developments to happen (First policy) and because it actually makes new housing developments (using real estate belonging to government).
Those two are under federal jurisdiction.

Other than tax I agree with you, but like you mentioned, it isn't up to federal government.


----------



## damian13ster




----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> It isn't a reasonable idea. The idea that we're going to have significant real GDP growth going forward to pay for all this, plus all the new plans is laughable.
> 
> Also the point isn't that Trudeau and O'Toole are both proposing stupid ideas, I agree there.
> The point is that Trudeau phrased his in a very funny way that was dismissive of the concern, and highlighted his ignorance/lack of concern.
> The fact that he promoted a stupid idea, in such a stupid way is why I thought it was funny.
> 
> If he at least pretended to care, it would have been less catchy.


It is possible. You don't need real GDP growth to grow revenues (though I reject the premise that Canada won't see real GDP growth over the next decade), you need nominal GDP growth. If you hold spending in nominal terms constant, eventually revenues would grow to exceed them. Whether that would happen in 10 years or so is a different discussion.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Trudeau has completely different problem. He is simply stupid.
> And it isn't changing. Look at recent responses. Increasing debt to ridiculous amounts, government debt in Canada now above 3 trillion, yet when there is a question about upcoming mandate review for central banks he said he doesn't think about monetary policy. The guy simply doesn't get it


This is just hypocrisy. O'Toole and Trudeau have the same stated policy on managing the deficit, one is a nuanced policy genius, the other is a foolish idiot. At best, you could consider what Trudeau said a gaffe in that he said it unartfully. I'm sure you were as hard on Trump and all the utterly moronic utterances that fell out of his mouth.

The federal debt (the only one for which the federal government could be considered responsible) is less than half this figure.

I am concerned about the fiscal situation, both federally and provincially. I'm not being presented much of a choice right now between LPC and CPC.


----------



## andrewf

Plugging Along said:


> Wow, I just did a quick skim through, and it's impressive on how he managed so spend so much money in such a short time. With my really quick tally of going through the billions he will spend it was over $80 BILLION in his platform. I didn't validate everything, but that is down right frightening. The little bit of extra he might get in the taxes he mentioned will not cover interest costs.
> 
> I am truly concerned for my kids, and future great grandkids right now. All this spending short term as the expense of future generations. I will have kids do a full analysis on how much this will cost later and ask them what they think. They should have a say. Will report back later. They are very social liberal in their thoughts, and not very fiscally conservative, but do think about these things fairly critically.


Did you tally up O'Toole's spending promises? O'Toole is planning to spend $5B just to subsidize carbon capture and storage--a loser technology meant as a fig leaf to continue exploiting fossil fuels.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> I hope that O'Toole phrased it this way not to commit political suicide, and being fully aware that people who want more efficiencies in the system will never vote Singh or Trudeau anyway, but I am not holding my breath.


Hoping a politician is lying is an interesting perspective.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> This is just hypocrisy. O'Toole and Trudeau have the same stated policy on managing the deficit, one is a nuanced policy genius, the other is a foolish idiot. At best, you could consider what Trudeau said a gaffe in that he said it unartfully. I'm sure you were as hard on Trump and all the utterly moronic utterances that fell out of his mouth.
> 
> The federal debt (the only one for which the federal government could be considered responsible) is less than half this figure.
> 
> I am concerned about the fiscal situation, both federally and provincially. I'm not being presented much of a choice right now between LPC and CPC.


And you consider not thinking about monetary policy a gaffe too?
And I never mentioned O'Toole is a policy genius. I gave him 3 Pinocchio's for that statement.
There is a clear difference between the two statements and if you are not seeing it then it is for purpose.

I considered Trump to be about as unintelligent as Trudeau. Just in different style.

And yeah. I won't vote for O'Toole because of this statement. I dislike it. I don't agree with it.
I will vote for Conservatives because they are least left wing on economy from major parties. They also aren't as racist as Liberals
Ultimately vote is between options available. There are plenty of policies I genuinely dislike from Conservative program. They went too far left. Was it necessary for election? - yes. Do I like it -no?
The programs offered by NDP and Liberals are in my opinion significantly worse though. As simple as that


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> To fix the housing market.
> 1. Charge higher property tax. When properly tax is <1%, the cities have low revenue and people can afford higher mortgage payments. This will also make holding real estate more expensive.
> 2. Encourage rentals. Fix rental laws to allow for damage recovery and easier evictions. Remove rent controls
> 3. Do something about the NIMBYism that keeps new developments from happening.
> 4. Approve more construction.
> 
> These are all Provincial (municipal) jurisdiction.
> Really provincial issues have no place in a federal election anyway.


Agreed. The only levers the federal government has available to it is financial sector policies, like bank lending standards and mortgage insurance. Tightening these would be unpopular, but probably wise.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> That's why the policies I mentioned are actually good.
> Because it forces new developments to happen (First policy) and because it actually makes new housing developments (using real estate belonging to government).
> Those two are under federal jurisdiction.
> 
> Other than tax I agree with you, but like you mentioned, it isn't up to federal government.


Actually that;'s why I disapprove.
1. Zoning is provincial, not federal.
2. Federal property should be allocated to it's best use. Maybe it's housing, maybe it's homeless shelters, maybe it's hospitals or simply greenspace.

Forcing the government to misallocate resources, ie use X% for housing, is bad policy.


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> And you consider not thinking about monetary policy a gaffe too?
> And I never mentioned O'Toole is a policy genius. I gave him 3 Pinocchio's for that statement.
> There is a clear difference between the two statements and if you are not seeing it then it is for purpose.
> 
> I considered Trump to be about as unintelligent as Trudeau. Just in different style


Most likely. He was pivoting to a message he wanted to deliver. He probably should have just dodged the question entirely as politicians usually do, but he made an unfortunate segue instead. The substance of his answer wasn't about monetary policy.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> It is possible. You don't need real GDP growth to grow revenues (though I reject the premise that Canada won't see real GDP growth over the next decade), you need nominal GDP growth. If you hold spending in nominal terms constant, eventually revenues would grow to exceed them. Whether that would happen in 10 years or so is a different discussion.


GDP growth alone isn't enough.
It needs to be significant real growth, after inflation and population growth.
Remember much program spending is linked to inflation, so you can't simply inflate away the deficit. Also a lot of the spending is linked to population, so population growth won't cut it either.

You can manage debt with population growth and inflating it away, but that doesn't work for the structural deficit in the budget.


I just don't see how that's going to happen, and definately not within a decade.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> This is just hypocrisy. O'Toole and Trudeau have the same stated policy on managing the deficit,


Yes, and it's bad policy.



> one is a nuanced policy genius, the other is a foolish idiot. At best, you could consider what Trudeau said a gaffe in that he said it unartfully.


No, they're both policiy idiots, but one said it funny, while the other didn't.



> I'm sure you were as hard on Trump and all the utterly moronic utterances that fell out of his mouth.


I didn't listen, he was an idiot with very little worth listening too.



> I am concerned about the fiscal situation, both federally and provincially. I'm not being presented much of a choice right now between LPC and CPC.


Absolutely, O'Toole is simply trying to get elected on a Liberal platform, but promising to do the same things slightly better. Honestly not a strategy I support, but maybe it will get him elected, and getting elected is the first rule.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> It is also in very good locations. If genuinely done in a smart way, re-purposing is efficient, then it will be significant increase in supply in areas that need it most - core of the cities.


It won't be done in a smart way.
People shouldn't live in the city core. I



> CMHC needs to be phased out.


Irrelevant, there are private companies offering comparable products, CMHC simply sets the standard policy, which I think is a good thing.



> Real estate agents system needs to be reformed to introduce more competition.


Again, that's provincial jurisdiction.



> Red tape needs to be removed, utilization of our resources needs to be more efficient, price-fixing (just look at what happened with supply immediately lumber went down) needs to be avoided.


Nope, supply management drives costs up.



> Canada is a country that doesn't value private enterprise and doesn't allow competition. A change in that would help drive down the living costs a lot.


You're simultaneously arguing price controls and private enterprise, I don't get it.
The reason the lumber market went nuts is everyone stayed home and built a deck or refinished their basement and used up all the wood, while the lumber mills were shut down.
It wasn't some grand price fixing scheme.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> Absolutely, O'Toole is simply trying to get elected on a Liberal platform, but promising to do the same things slightly better. Honestly not a strategy I support, but maybe it will get him elected, and getting elected is the first rule.


Was listening to the David Herle podcast today. A former Reform/Conservative campaign strategist was pretty critical of O'Toole running as a Liberal-lite, claiming that is hasn't worked previously to get Conservative governments elected.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Trudeau has completely different problem. He is simply stupid.


And he's also one of the most capable/gifted politicians in memory.


----------



## kcowan

damian13ster said:


> I considered Trump to be about as unintelligent as Trudeau. Just in different style.


I would consider Trump to be wiley and Trudeau to be stupid. I believe the former is much more dangerous.

Trudeau should be relegated to the trash heap regardless of the outcome. Let the Liberals start to rebuild their credibility.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> I would consider Trump to be wiley and Trudeau to be stupid. I believe the former is much more dangerous.
> 
> Trudeau should be relegated to the trash heap regardless of the outcome. Let the Liberals start to rebuild their credibility.


I think it's almost too easy to discount Trudeau as stupid, he is.
But he's also been able to survive an incredible number of scandals

Don't count him out till the Sophie sings.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Actually that;'s why I disapprove.
> 1. Zoning is provincial, not federal.
> 2. Federal property should be allocated to it's best use. Maybe it's housing, maybe it's homeless shelters, maybe it's hospitals or simply greenspace.
> 
> Forcing the government to misallocate resources, ie use X% for housing, is bad policy.





MrMatt said:


> It won't be done in a smart way.
> People shouldn't live in the city core. I
> 
> 
> Irrelevant, there are private companies offering comparable products, CMHC simply sets the standard policy, which I think is a good thing.
> 
> 
> Again, that's provincial jurisdiction.
> 
> 
> Nope, supply management drives costs up.
> 
> 
> You're simultaneously arguing price controls and private enterprise, I don't get it.
> The reason the lumber market went nuts is everyone stayed home and built a deck or refinished their basement and used up all the wood, while the lumber mills were shut down.
> It wasn't some grand price fixing scheme.


I don't know where you got the assumption.
Some of the mills were shut down (recently) the moment prices went down. There is too large of concentration in the market so they can do that. It is basically a cartel.
Same with telecom, airlines, etc.

I am arguing for private enterprise and against anti-competition policies from government.

There is a difference between private companies and CMHC. Taxpayers don't pick up the tab if private company fails so it encourages more sound business practices and isn't driven by politics (just look at rate reduction for CMHC being in political platform).

And to your original response:
I believed administration in government needs to be cut, resulting in lower utilization of federal buildings. If lower administration --> lower real estate requirement --> repurpose of the space --> more housing and higher revenue for government then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I disagree with you that people shouldn't live in city core. The atmosphere of European cities is significantly better and more pleasant precisely because more people live close to the core, and those who don't have well developed transit center to allow them to get to the city core.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Inflation is quietly really kicking in these days. Another example is with the honey (from Canada):

Last year, with $4-off promo: $9.99
Now, with $4-off promo: $11.99

*20% increase* from October 2020. 
Seems it's payback time for Canadians.

Thank you Justin T.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I don't know where you got the assumption.
> Some of the mills were shut down (recently) the moment prices went down. There is too large of concentration in the market so they can do that. It is basically a cartel.


What when price was high supply increased, and when prices were low supply decreased.
It's almost like some sort of "supply and demand" relationship.



> I believed administration in government needs to be cut, resulting in lower utilization of federal buildings. If lower administration --> lower real estate requirement --> repurpose of the space --> more housing and higher revenue for government then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.


No disagreement, except that Housing is the best use of that property, there could be many other possible uses that offer a better social good.

They could turn it into farmland, and make food, nothing wrong with that. Except it's not the best use of the land.



> I disagree with you that people shouldn't live in city core. The atmosphere of European cities is significantly better and more pleasant precisely because more people live close to the core, and those who don't have well developed transit center to allow them to get to the city core.


1. We're not Europe, it's nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
2. The quality of life in the core sucks. It is unhealthy. I don't think governments should be advocating for policies that hurt people.


----------



## damian13ster

Except that supply and demand is artificial, not market forces.
First supply was cut by the lockdowns
Then supply got cut because we have cartels.

Well, when you come up with better use for 15% of real estate belonging to government, in city core, let me know! I am sure people are open to ideas. 

1. That is fine, but that is your opinion. Urbanization shows that people generally want to live in the cities. Of course that's where the jobs are, but it is chicken vs egg discussion on what is the cause and what is effect.
2. Maybe, there is higher air pollution. There are other aspects, such as access to health care services, more variable diet, etc. that might be a positive, but don't have enough knowledge to discuss it so will just take your word for it.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Except that supply and demand is artificial, not market forces.
> First supply was cut by the lockdowns
> Then supply got cut because we have cartels.


The price behaviour was certianly the supply/demand tradeoff.

Yes, the government interference cut supply, and spiked demand.
I don't know about your claim on cartels, but I believe that the mills were trying to run where they could.



> Well, when you come up with better use for 15% of real estate belonging to government, in city core, let me know! I am sure people are open to ideas.


I don't know what the best use is.
However I have a feeling that housing is likely not the best use of every piece of surplus real estate in the country.



> 1. That is fine, but that is your opinion. Urbanization shows that people generally want to live in the cities. Of course that's where the jobs are, but it is chicken vs egg discussion on what is the cause and what is effect.


Intersting, I think most people want to live outside the cities, in the suburbs. Or if they can afford it, often they want to live further out.
Young people tend to want to live downtown where the "action" is. 
Here, most people want to live outside the core, because the downtown core is a crime infested cesspool.



> 2. Maybe, there is higher air pollution. There are other aspects, such as access to health care services, more variable diet, etc. that might be a positive, but don't have enough knowledge to discuss it so will just take your word for it.


Access to those services is better outside the city core than inside it.
Read up on "urban food deserts" for example.


----------



## kcowan

MrMatt said:


> I think it's almost too easy to discount Trudeau as stupid, he is.
> But he's also been able to survive an incredible number of scandals
> 
> Don't count him out till the Sophie sings.


He fools his flock by coming out against things that he and he party has done. Then his sheep get the feeling that he is righteous. He ignores the economy and even says it will fix the debt even when the results show it declining. He has a loyal uneducated and fearful flock.


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> He fools his flock by coming out against things that he and he party has done. Then his sheep get the feeling that he is righteous. He ignores the economy and even says it will fix the debt even when the results show it declining. He has a loyal uneducated and fearful flock.


"Believe all women", unless they're going after a Liberal MP in a riding they need to win.... Or they disagree with the all might Trudeau.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> The price behaviour was certianly the supply/demand tradeoff.
> 
> Yes, the government interference cut supply, and spiked demand.
> I don't know about your claim on cartels, but I believe that the mills were trying to run where they could.
> 
> 
> I don't know what the best use is.
> However I have a feeling that housing is likely not the best use of every piece of surplus real estate in the country.
> 
> 
> Intersting, I think most people want to live outside the cities, in the suburbs. Or if they can afford it, often they want to live further out.
> Young people tend to want to live downtown where the "action" is.
> Here, most people want to live outside the core, because the downtown core is a crime infested cesspool.
> 
> 
> Access to those services is better outside the city core than inside it.
> Read up on "urban food deserts" for example.


Because of poor city planning.
A friend of mine (in Poland) actually had a thesis on that. Comparing Krakow to Edmonton when it comes to how city planning/transport affect lifestyle, living patterns, and life satisfaction.
It was an interesting exercise. If you have travelled to Europe then you probably experienced that yourself.
Over here it is true - downtown is crime-infested, largely dead. That isn't the case in Europe though precisely because more people live in the core and because social life happens in the core.

That is a massive digression from election topic though because neither party is really looking at issues when it comes to revitalization, urbanization, and spread.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Because of poor city planning.
> A friend of mine (in Poland) actually had a thesis on that. Comparing Krakow to Edmonton when it comes to how city planning/transport affect lifestyle, living patterns, and life satisfaction.
> It was an interesting exercise. If you have travelled to Europe then you probably experienced that yourself.
> Over here it is true - downtown is crime-infested, largely dead. That isn't the case in Europe though precisely because more people live in the core and because social life happens in the core.
> 
> That is a massive digression from election topic though because neither party is really looking at issues when it comes to revitalization


Well except for the people that think it's a good idea to put all the poor people, together, in high density housing, in the high crime cores of Canadian cities.
Again, I'd like to point out that this is yet another policy that is bad.
It's bad for the people it's intended to help.
It's a bad/suboptimal use of government resources. (Or at least not a well thought out one)


----------



## damian13ster

I wasn't aware the plan is to put poor people in high density housing in high crime cores.
Yes, that would be counter-productive.

Building more housing in the core though doesn't necessarily mean only certain type of people will live there. The first stop to actually make cores more lively is to have young middle-class move to the core and I believe that is very much doable with increased supply.


----------



## andrewf

Ukrainiandude said:


> Inflation is quietly really kicking in these days. Another example is with the honey (from Canada):
> 
> Last year, with $4-off promo: $9.99
> Now, with $4-off promo: $11.99
> 
> *20% increase* from October 2020.
> Seems it's payback time for Canadians.
> 
> Thank you Justin T.


Honey is quite volatile and supply is challenged due to disease and natural disasters. It's a pretty niche commodity to extrapolate from.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I wasn't aware the plan is to put poor people in high density housing in high crime cores.
> Yes, that would be counter-productive.
> 
> Building more housing in the core though doesn't necessarily mean only certain type of people will live there. The first stop to actually make cores more lively is to have young middle-class move to the core and I believe that is very much doable with increased supply.


Most people who can afford it, choose to live outside the core.
Do you honestly think wealthy people are going to be running into government converted high density housing?
I'd almost guarantee that it will be high density, low income housing.

Imagine the controversy if the government is found selling off property to build downtown mansions for the rich.


----------



## damian13ster

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fact-check-federal-deficit-10-years-1.6161658



Apparently O'Toole's 'balance the budget without cuts' statement is possible with just 1.6% annual real GDP growth.

And on the other topic - no. I don't believe wealthy people will move there. Nor do I think it is necessary.
I have multiple friends straight out of university that want to live downtown because of social scene but the housing is not affordable to them in general.
This is the group imho that should be targeted. University students and young adults from lower to higher middle class.
I am not familiar with layout of all major cities in Canada, but at least in Edmonton major schools are all around downtown core
Apartments with avg rent of~30% individual median income imho would be a sweet spot.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fact-check-federal-deficit-10-years-1.6161658
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently O'Toole's 'balance the budget without cuts' statement is possible with just 1.6% annual real GDP growth.
> 
> And on the other topic - no. I don't believe wealthy people will move there. Nor do I think it is necessary.
> I have multiple friends straight out of university that want to live downtown because of social scene but the housing is not affordable to them in general.
> This is the group imho that should be targeted. University students and young adults from lower to higher middle class.
> I am not familiar with layout of all major cities in Canada, but at least in Edmonton major schools are all around downtown core
> Apartments with avg rent of~30% individual median income imho would be a sweet spot.


I know lots of people right out of school who like the downtown life.

They are generally just partying and having fun, not settling down and having kids.
Yeah, 40yr old DINKS are great for the economy, but really not a strong foundation for the country. Here in the 'burbs. Almost every house is a family.


----------



## damian13ster

Well, guess we hang out with different crowds.
Nevertheless, we don't need families with kids to make downtown more lively, cleaner, less crime-infested.
We simply need people with middle-class wage jobs, relatively high personal culture, and that will get the ball rolling. Then once positive changes take place you might even have families who will get an appeal for the lifestyle. 
The first step imho is precisely the apartments for people straight out of school, childless, on middle wage income. They are most likely to want to live in the area given an opportunity, and will make the area a better place, which just might convince others to consider it as well


----------



## Eder

Might be anecdotal but my affluent daughter and most of their fairly affluent friends have moved closer to upscale city core homes as much as I tried to convince them to go for the 1 acre 3 car garage homesites further out away from the crack heads


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fact-check-federal-deficit-10-years-1.6161658
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently O'Toole's 'balance the budget without cuts' statement is possible with just 1.6% annual real GDP growth.
> 
> And on the other topic - no. I don't believe wealthy people will move there. Nor do I think it is necessary.
> I have multiple friends straight out of university that want to live downtown because of social scene but the housing is not affordable to them in general.
> This is the group imho that should be targeted. University students and young adults from lower to higher middle class.
> I am not familiar with layout of all major cities in Canada, but at least in Edmonton major schools are all around downtown core
> Apartments with avg rent of~30% individual median income imho would be a sweet spot.


So in other words, Trudeau was correct when he said the budget would balance itself?


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Well, guess we hang out with different crowds.
> Nevertheless, we don't need families with kids to make downtown more lively, cleaner, less crime-infested.
> We simply need people with middle-class wage jobs, relatively high personal culture, and that will get the ball rolling. Then once positive changes take place you might even have families who will get an appeal for the lifestyle.
> The first step imho is precisely the apartments for people straight out of school, childless, on middle wage income. They are most likely to want to live in the area given an opportunity, and will make the area a better place, which just might convince others to consider it as well


Not sure about Edmonton, but downtown Toronto is home to hundreds of thousands of high income households. There is no problem with it being 'dead'.


----------



## sags

I went for a jaunt down Highway 401 to pick up our grandson, and it was bumper to bumper at 120 kms an hour..

This is the main commuter road to Toronto from east and west.

The commute is bad in the nice months and a nightmare in the winter.

People don't choose to live outside the city if they could afford to live in the city.

A single family home anywhere near Toronto is out of financial reach for most Canadians now.

High speed rail commuter rail would be very beneficial but it still years away, and won't be all that "high speed" because it cuts right through cities and towns.

Conservatives seem to be focused on affordable housing meaning rental units. That isn't what people want.

They want affordable homes to buy and own. The solution is simple and straightforward but it takes work that none of the parties want to do.

In the past we built small, affordable post war homes in volume and could do it again....but it isn't an easy or quick election platform fix.

These days none of the parties think much beyond the next couple of years.

Interesting that China thinks in terms of the next hundred years, and have built full cities that are unoccupied in anticipation of future growth.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> So in other words, Trudeau was correct when he said the budget would balance itself?


No, he's proposing $70 Billion in new spending. If he proposed no new spending maybe.. 

Plus the phrasing "budget will balance itself" is not an appropriate way to communicate the idea. 
The idea that the economy will grow faster than government spending, without cuts is not correct.
It was wrong when Trudeau said it, it's wrong when O'Toole said something similar.


----------



## sags

O'Toole is simply copying Liberal and NDP election policies and changing some minor details to present it as his own ideas.

The official Conservative policy book has no new ideas in it, but it does have Erin O'Toole's face on the front page, so he is tied to those policies.

The only new ideas that O'Toole has is going back to Harper's old ideas......climate change policy for example.

Old is new again........in O'Toole's world.

The Canadian electorate is trying to decide between the Liberals and NDP. The Conservatives are about where they were in 2019.

According to election rules, even if the Conservatives get the most seats, PM Trudeau can form a coalition government with the NDP.

The rules are the parties that can form a government wins.......not the one with the most popular votes or seats.

The Conservatives need a majority to become the government.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> According to election rules, even if the Conservatives get the most seats, PM Trudeau can form a coalition government with the NDP.
> 
> The rules are the parties that can form a government wins.......not the one with the most popular votes or seats.
> 
> The Conservatives need a majority to become the government.


If I didn't know better I would say your comments appear like you're starting to sweat it.










ltr


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> O'Toole is simply copying Liberal and NDP election policies and changing some minor details to present it as his own ideas.
> 
> The official Conservative policy book has no new ideas in it, but it does have Erin O'Toole's face on the front page, so he is tied to those policies.
> 
> The only new ideas that O'Toole has is going back to Harper's old ideas......climate change policy for example.
> 
> Old is new again........in O'Toole's world.
> 
> The Canadian electorate is trying to decide between the Liberals and NDP. The Conservatives are about where they were in 2019.
> 
> According to election rules, even if the Conservatives get the most seats, PM Trudeau can form a coalition government with the NDP.
> 
> The rules are the parties that can form a government wins.......not the one with the most popular votes or seats.
> 
> The Conservatives need a majority to become the government.


You do realize that Conservatives were the first ones to release election platform, right?

Well, as of today, with seat projection, Liberal + NDP is not enough to form government.

PPC also passed Greens
O'Toole has now passed Trudeau and leads in 'Preferred PM' poll


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> You do realize that Conservatives were the first ones to release election platform, right?
> 
> Well, as of today, with seat projection, Liberal + NDP is not enough to form government.


It's not over yet. I wouldn't count Trudeau out, he's proven to be politically far more capable than anyone expected.
Honestly I think an O'Toole run Liberalish government might be not disasterous.

It isn't like O'Toole has the friends and family network where he "accidentally" keeps giving money to them.

Oops a few hundred million here to these guys who hire my family., oops a hundred million to this organization I'm in, oh a few million to this friend who happens to host me at their island paradise.
Cut that out, and the constant racism and sexism, and general incompetence of Trudeau, and I think it would be ok.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> It's not over yet. I wouldn't count Trudeau out, he's proven to be politically far more capable than anyone expected.


Definitely. He can lie like nobody's business, make sure to never answer question actually asked. He is good at politics.
I am not counting him out, hence the 'as of today'


----------



## Ukrainiandude




----------



## sags

I told Justin that seniors were angry at him. I hope he gets the message.


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> They mail them out 3 weeks before voting day. That would be next week.


I received my voter information card today. Gives the poll location and advance voting days.

Most of my friends have already registered to vote by mail, but I don't see any danger in going in for advance voting. I really don't think covid spreads through brief, masked visits into public areas. I think it's prolonged indoor exposure which spreads it.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I don't see any danger in going in for advance voting. I really don't think covid spreads through brief, masked visits into public areas.


In the past I always had to stand in a long line indoors and wait to vote. Maybe they'll have that sorted out this election. I voted by mail.

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-raj-saini-election-campaign-1.6162988


----------



## sags

Trudeau should cancel the election. The covid situation is becoming more dire than expected. We can have the election in a year or two.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-raj-saini-election-campaign-1.6162988


The complainant has mental health issues and she was told by the police to stop harassing the MP with continual threats.

_But in August 2020, while she was on leave, the House of Commons dismissed her, citing "cause as a result" of her "misconduct," according to the former staffer's dismissal letter.

The letter also states the former staffer turned down a mediation process with Saini. She said she didn't trust that the mediation process was impartial.

The dismissal letter said the staffer "repeatedly breached" her "duty of good faith and loyalty" to her employer through "persistent and incessant unwelcome and disparaging comments toward the MP."

The staffer shared with CBC News a string of emails and texts she sent Saini while on sick leave, saying that if Saini did not apologize, she would sue, go to HR or go public with her story.

Saini got police involved and warned her to stop contacting him, she said._


----------



## damian13ster

Disgusting response

*If you were sexually harassed by Liberal MP there is a chance you would also have mental issues.*

And yeah, firing someone for 'disparaging comments' toward A PERSON THAT SEXUALLY HARASSED HER seems perfectly reasonable and just.
Coincidently, the firing is before she can testify - pure luck!

"But a female senior staffer who alleges Saini mistreated her denied that the process was rigorous. She said she wasn't allowed to take part in the workplace assessment, even though her concerns were what initially prompted the review. "

"
The senior staffer who said she wasn't allowed to participate in the review filed a Canadian Human Rights Commission complaint last year alleging Saini touched her thigh on more than one occasion, made inappropriate comments and harassed her. Fearing career reprisals, she asked CBC News to keep her identity confidential.

She alleges Saini's treatment contributed to her mental distress. She said she tried to take her own life by overdosing on pills in Saini's office in March 2020.


The staffer showed CBC News an email in which Saini said he engaged a human resources consultant to conduct a workplace assessment of the office to address the issues she had raised, and that she could participate once she returned from sick leave.

Liberal whip Mark Holland's office also sent her an email saying she would have an opportunity to take part in the workplace assessment.

"As soon as you brought this to our attention, we inquired into the matter and was advised that the MP engaged a senior HR consultant to undertake a workplace assessment process to help address any concerns staff may have," wrote Holland's chief of staff, Charles-Eric Lépine. "I understand that you will also have the opportunity to take part once you are ready to return to work."

But in August 2020, while she was on leave, the House of Commons dismissed her, citing "cause as a result" of her "misconduct," according to the former staffer's dismissal letter."


----------



## sags

You left out the part of the police warning her to stop sending a steady stream of threatening text messages and emails.

I am sure the police read the context of the text messages and emails, before warning her to stop.


----------



## damian13ster

You included it, there was no need to double post.

*I wonder how you would react if Liberal MP sexually assaulted you and then it was covered up?* Anger is not unreasonable

Allowing accused sexual assaulter to run is despicable. It isn't surprising in Liberal party though. They have a history of giving promotions to sexual predators


----------



## sags

So if someone makes an accusation against O'Toole..........he should resign ?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> So if someone makes an accusation against O'Toole..........he should resign ?


That's what happened with conservative candidate. Accusation was made and he withdrew from the race.

And you insinuating it is political ploy is another despicable treatment of victims.
Your disrespect to women is disgusting. It does explain your voting preferences though.
The allegations were made and reported over a year before election was called.

That's the problem with Liberals. They talk, but when it comes to actions, they reward sexual assaults, and put down women their MPs get handsy with.


----------



## sags

Maybe there was evidence against the conservative candidate.

You are jumping to the conclusion that every accusation must be true.

They already investigated once and the police told the woman to stop sending harassing texts and emails.

Is the woman claiming the police didn't take her accusation seriously or investigate it fully ?

Wait until there is sufficient evidence before convicting someone.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Your disrespect to women is disgusting. It does explain your voting preferences though.


What do you expect from the most openly sexist leader of a Canadian political party?


----------



## sags

Have you planned for life after another possible Trudeau victory ? Will you be able to cope with such a result ?


----------



## damian13ster

We get it sags. As long as it is liberal candidate, they can be corrupt, have ethical violations, harass women, and cover up sexual harassment and you are still fine.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> We get it sags. As long as it is liberal candidate, they can be corrupt, have ethical violations, harass women, and cover up sexual harassment and you are still fine.


Yup, Liberal regressiveness at the best.


----------



## damian13ster

The real question is whether People Party will end up voting conservative. Together they have 40%. Unlikely to happen though since CPC is now on the left.
BQ falling is not a good news. Blanchet has terrible campaign


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Have you planned for life after another possible Trudeau victory ? Will you be able to cope with such a result ?


We survived pharaohs, inquisition, Nazis, Arabs.... we will survive Trudeau 🤣


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> We get it sags. As long as it is liberal candidate, they can be corrupt, have ethical violations, harass women, and cover up sexual harassment and you are still fine.


Only if they pay him $500 one time OAS 🤣


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> We survived pharaohs, inquisition, Nazis, Arabs.... we will survive Trudeau 🤣


The question is if Canada could survive another "Harper" type of government.

The last one is not fondly remembered by Canadians.


----------



## sags

O'Toole didn't look good today under intense questioning from the Quebec media in Montreal. He will be happy to get out of there.

He refuses to answer direct questions on abortion, climate change, vaccinations, daycare. It is going to hurt him in Quebec.

Trudeau looked very good today announcing vaccination record requirements for flying and explaining how the Federal/Provincial records will be set up.

Provincial governments will do all the data stuff and the Federal government will "certify" the records for International travel.


----------



## damian13ster

https://nanos.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/2021-1947-ELXN44-Nightly-Tracking-Report-2021-09-02.pdf



Apparently sexual harassment isn't popular among Canadians other than sags
Liberals continue sinking.


In reference to previous post: Quebec


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> The question is if Canada could survive another "Harper" type of government.
> 
> The last one is not fondly remembered by Canadians.


Only by Liberals and other commies 🤣


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Trudeau should cancel the election. The covid situation is becoming more dire than expected. We can have the election in a year or two.


That is not possible!

Wow. Just wow.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> That is not possible!
> 
> Wow. Just wow.


Why isn't it possible ?

All of the opposition are railing against holding the election right now. Trudeau could announce a deferral until the 4th wave has passed.

What would the opposition say.........we demand to have an election now ?

For all we know it might not even be possible to have all the polls open by September 20.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Why isn't it possible ?
> 
> All of the opposition are railing against holding the election right now. Trudeau could announce a deferral until the 4th wave has passed.
> 
> What would the opposition say.........we demand to have an election now ?
> 
> For all we know it might not even be possible to have all the polls open by September 20.


Because parliament is dissolved. He isn't prime minister. 
He has no power.


----------



## james4beach

Current polls


----------



## gibor365

to


andrewf said:


> That is not possible!
> 
> Wow. Just wow.


It would be a huge joke! PM calls elections because he wants to get majority, when he sees that odds aren’t in his favour, he cancels elections... sags, what country do we live in?!


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> It would be a huge joke! PM calls elections because he wants to get majority, when he sees that odds aren’t in his favour, he cancels elections... sags, what country do we live in?!


Sounds like what you'd get in a disaster of a country like Russia


----------



## damian13ster

Even in Russia they have 'decency' of (allegedly) fixing elections, and not outright cancelling them if it turns out people don't like them 😅 
Afghanistan would be better comparison I guess. They share the same values when it comes to women as Liberal MPs do so maybe they would feel better there. There are still plenty of Canadians and our allies that Canadian government left to die. We can exchange former prime minister Trudeau, Sajjan, and Garneau for those good people since they are responsible for leaving them behind


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Sounds like what you'd get in a disaster of a country like Russia


I don’t recall Russia was canceling elections (after initiating them), when polls were against ruling party 🤣


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I don’t recall Russia was canceling elections (after initiating them), when polls were against ruling party 🤣


Yeah, the Tsar just jails (and poisons) people who run against him. Putin is truly an enemy of the Russian people.


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Even in Russia they have 'decency' of (allegedly) fixing elections, and not outright cancelling them if it turns out people don't like them 😅
> Afghanistan would be better comparison I guess. They share the same values when it comes to women as Liberal MPs do so maybe they would feel better there. There are still plenty of Canadians and our allies that Canadian government left to die. We can exchange former prime minister Trudeau, Sajjan, and Garneau for those good people since they are responsible for leaving them behind


Fake news! What fixing elections you can talk about if 77% of Russians voted for him?! Even in Israel , 80%+ Russian citizens voted for Putin! 
According to public opinion surveys conducted by NGO Levada Center, Putin's approval rating was 60% in July 2020, and the highest of any leader in the world, 
Who is alternative ?! Sitting on CIA payroll Navalny?!


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Yeah, the Tsar just jails (and poisons) people who run against him. Putin is truly an enemy of the Russian people.


Absolutely not sure about Putin , but Trudeau is definetely is biggest enemy of Canadian people! Putin is an angel compared to Trudeau!

P.S. Those dictator Trudeau supporters are so pissed off that yhis jerk (who wante absolute power) is losing in polls!


----------



## damian13ster

Ok now, settle down. They are both really bad, just in different ways.
Putin does get rid of political enemies.
Trudeau tried to introduce dictatorship in 1H2020 luckily only had minority.
Both have insanely high egos. 

But this is a thread on Canadian election, not Russian leadership.


----------



## sags

The latest polls show the race is tightening.

The CPC lost ground in Atlantic Canada and the Liberals lead in Ontario, as NDP support drops off.

People are starting to pay attention now, and CPC support appears to have peaked. O'Toole's flip flopping on the issues is having an impact.


----------



## damian13ster

You got any source of that poll?
Because it seems like you ran into some fake news









338Canada Canada | Poll Analysis & Electoral Projections







338canada.com





What's great to see is that Liberals + NDP + Greens is now not enough to form government if the results stay this way


----------



## sags

This is the latest poll.

Yesterday was a bad day for O'Toole after he got caught in a couple of lies.

He was forced to acknowledged he would roll back the Liberals ban on assault weapons and confirmed he was anti- vaccine passport.

O'Toole is now aligned with the unruly protestors harassing doctors and nurses at hospitals, climate change deniers, and anti-women's rights protestors.

Canadians don't like that. The real Erin "two face" O'Toole is being revealed.



https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


That shows
Liberals: +1 Atlantic, +1 Quebec -1 Ontario -1 Prairies
Net: 119-165 to 116-166

The only worrying factor is BQ dropping. They need to perform better but Blanchet's platform is nothing but '**** on Alberta' and it is proving to be ineffective. He needs to smarten up.

There is still hope for Ontario. After all they made Liberals into non-official party status in last election. Even Atlantic provinces are slowly waking up.
There is little hope for Quebec though. Blanchet was it but he became clueless


----------



## sags

The official Conservative policy book with O'Toole's face on it...and his campaign rhetoric don't match up, so reporters are drilling him relentlessly on it.

It is a real problem for him when the right wing Reformer ideology doesn't match Canadians expectations.

Voters kicked the tires on the oddball vehicle for a bit.......but in the end they are deciding to stay with the reliable GM model.


----------



## sags

The election may not be viable or possible by September 20.

The pandemic is raging and Elections Canada can't find poll workers. The election may have to be temporarily delayed.

In Alberta the pandemic is out of control, and the Provincial government is paralyzed in fear of what is still to come in the next couple of weeks.

In Ontario, the projections could be up to new 9,000 infections a day and hospitals overrun. Schools are super spreaders and due to open.

The 4th wave has taken over faster than projected and it might be wise to set aside the election for now and concentrate on the pandemic.


----------



## sags

Elections Canada says the unvaccinated are allowed to vote in polling places and the workers aren't required to be vaccinated.

No wonder nobody wants to work there. It looks like a lot of people won't be voting due to the high level of risk involved.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccine-passport-2021-federal-election-1.6164248


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Ok now, settle down. They are both really bad, just in different ways.
> Putin does get rid of political enemies.
> Trudeau tried to introduce dictatorship in 1H2020 luckily only had minority.
> Both have insanely high egos.
> 
> But this is a thread on Canadian election, not Russian leadership.


James tried to defend sags (with his stupid post about canceling elections) and derail thread! Favourite CNN tactics, to change topic on Russia to distract ppl


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> Elections Canada says the unvaccinated are allowed to vote in polling places and the workers aren't required to be vaccinated.
> 
> No wonder nobody wants to work there. It looks like a lot of people won't be voting due to the high level of risk involved.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccine-passport-2021-federal-election-1.6164248


I don't see why that would have much impact on turnout. It was not that long ago that no one was vaccinated, yet that didn't stop people from voting in provincial elections. Vaccination rates are high and continue to increase. If you're vaccinated and wearing a mask, you're safer than at any other time during the last 18 months.


----------



## sags

That's true........but was the Delta virus around back then ? I don't know........maybe the equation has changed since the Provincial elections.

We know this virus hangs in the air........so if a single infected person goes into vote it could infect a lot of people walking in the "mist" of the virus.

Maybe if they used the same protocols as the vaccination clinics......filling out a form, taking temperatures, wearing face shields etc. it would be safer.

Anyone with co-morbidities might be wise to avoid it.


----------



## sags

Boy.......reporters are really going after O'Toole about his pledge to reverse the Liberal ban on assault rifles.

He is trying to avoid answering the question honestly but they just keep asking it over and over. The media has decided they won't allow the politicians to avoid a question and move on. Now they are sticking together and repeating the question over and over.

I listened to a podcast from Peter Mansbridge awhile back with several reporters and they said they were very frustrated by the non-answers from politicians and were going to do this strategy to make politicians either answer or look like they are avoiding the questions.

Another ploy politicians use is to answer questions in English and French because it cuts a 20 minute question time period effectively down to 10 minutes.
They should only answer in both languages if they are asked to do so by a reporter.

I like the fact the reporters are sticking together and demanding answers. It makes the politician look stupid answering every question with the same words.


----------



## sags

Liberal MP Saini will not seek election.

He says the allegations are false but a distraction and he will not seek election.

If he is guilty.....that is good he resigned. If he isn't guilty.....then it isn't so good that allegations can force resignations.

The allegations should be followed up by the police and investigated thoroughly again. If warranted he should be charged with appropriate criminal charges.

If it is found the allegations are false, the accusers should be charged with obstructing justice.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> James tried to defend sags (with his stupid post about canceling elections) and derail thread! Favourite CNN tactics, to change topic on Russia to distract ppl


I guess Russian trolls can give sass too

We've got one guy here who's constantly talking about his great Putin, while he simultaneously shits on nearly all Canadian values. Meanwhile we've got _another_ new foreign guy (Polish I think) showing up and also shitting on Canadian values.

Both of these characters consistently post messages aimed to spread distrust of western politicians and western values.

I hope everyone at CMF is aware that Canadian intelligence services have warned about exactly this kind of thing happening on internet forums, funded by foreign nations.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> I guess Russian trolls can give sass too
> 
> We've got one guy here who's constantly talking about his great Putin, while he simultaneously shits on nearly all Canadian values. Meanwhile we've got _another_ new foreign guy (Polish I think) showing up and also shitting on Canadian values.
> 
> Both of these characters consistently post messages aimed to spread distrust of western politicians and western values.
> 
> I hope everyone at CMF is aware that Canadian intelligence services have warned about exactly this kind of thing happening on internet forums, funded by foreign nations.


Ha ha ha ! I thought you are smarter 
There is no such thing as "Canadian values"  ... is it Quebec values or maybe Alberta values?!
There are Western World values, but you have no idea what it is!

Just tell us how so called "Canadian values" are differ from EU, Australian or US values!

P.S. Looks like you and sags are going to be in huge depression when corrupted Trudeau is kicked out!!!



> I hope everyone at CMF is aware that Canadian intelligence services have warned about exactly this kind of thing happening on internet forums, funded by foreign nations.


 Where can we get out paycheck?!

" Canadian intelligence services " =


----------



## Eder

Let me be on record that I am happy to **** on values that allow churches and trains to be torched
Stores looted
Statues desecrated
Government corruption accepted

I was born here
Maybe it takes an immigrant to describe what we are mostly blind to


----------



## kcowan

Eder said:


> Churches and trains to be torched
> Stores looted
> Statues desecrated
> Government corruption accepted


Racism accepted
Women mistreated
Let's give the list to Singh!


----------



## Ukrainiandude

gibor365 said:


> Fake news! What fixing elections you can talk about if 77% of Russians voted for him?! Even in Israel , 80%+ Russian citizens voted for Putin!
> According to public opinion surveys conducted by NGO Levada Center, Putin's approval rating was 60% in July 2020, and the highest of any leader in the world,
> Who is alternative ?! Sitting on CIA payroll Navalny?!


In a month, since June 2021, the rating of trust in Russian President Vladimir Putin as a politician has decreased from 33% to 31%, according to a poll by the Levada Center (the authorities consider the organization to be a foreign agent).
Last year Putin’s ranking was 23%








Рейтинг Путина продолжает падать. Ему доверяют только треть россиян


Москва, Петербург, Ереван, Тбилиси, Белград. Журнал о городах, где мы




www.the-village.ru





what surprises me is how he gets 77% votes? unless the elections are rigged.

webcams from 2018 Russia elections clearly show mass falsifications. Parliamentary election in Russia is in two weeks, no webcams this time.


----------



## gibor365

Ukrainiandude said:


> In a month, since June 2021, the rating of trust in Russian President Vladimir Putin as a politician has decreased from 33% to 31%, according to a poll by the Levada Center (the authorities consider the organization to be a foreign agent).
> Last year Putin’s ranking was 23%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Рейтинг Путина продолжает падать. Ему доверяют только треть россиян
> 
> 
> Москва, Петербург, Ереван, Тбилиси, Белград. Журнал о городах, где мы
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.the-village.ru
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what surprises me is how he gets 77% votes? unless the elections are rigged.
> 
> webcams from 2018 Russia elections clearly show mass falsifications. Parliamentary election in Russia is in two weeks, no webcams this time.


From the same article you published “Немного упал и рейтинг одобрения деятельности президента — с 66 % в июне до 64 % в июле.”
Putin’s politics approve 64%!


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Let me be on record that I am happy to **** on values that allow churches and trains to be torched
> Stores looted
> Statues desecrated
> Government corruption accepted
> 
> I was born here
> Maybe it takes an immigrant to describe what we are mostly blind to


Not only that, after the desecrate the statues and riot, the domestic terrorists get what they want.


----------



## sags

Yea, we should ban all right wing groups. Domestic terrorists describes them perfectly.


----------



## sags

The Liberals have made a big jump in support. They now lead in projected seats 141 to 132.



https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## sags

CPC leader Erin O'Toole flip flops today on his position on banning assault guns. 

He says he will NOT repeal the Liberal ban as he has previously pledged to Conservative supporters.

Can people trust someone who flip flops so much ?


----------



## diharv

Big deal. It's an issue that will have no bearing on public safely either way. Can people trust a leader who refuses to answer questions and flippantly dismisses the the out of control spending and the economic toilet he is taking the country into?


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> The Liberals have made a big jump in support. They now lead in projected seats 141 to 132.


The CPC have made a big jump in support. They now lead in projected seats 144 to 131.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> I guess Russian trolls can give sass too
> 
> We've got one guy here who's constantly talking about his great Putin, while he simultaneously shits on nearly all Canadian values. Meanwhile we've got _another_ new foreign guy (Polish I think) showing up and also shitting on Canadian values.
> 
> Both of these characters consistently post messages aimed to spread distrust of western politicians and western values.
> 
> I hope everyone at CMF is aware that Canadian intelligence services have warned about exactly this kind of thing happening on internet forums, funded by foreign nations.


Shitting on Canadian values?
I am shitting on sexual harassment, trying to introduce dictatorship in COVID relief bill, and suggesting election should be cancelled.
Wasn't aware any of those are Canadian values? At least none of them were on my citizenship test in Canada.

So far only documented source of manipulated facts in this election was Chrystia Freeland


----------



## sags

Interesting wide differences in the polls, but with the 338 polls I wonder how they calculate that the CPC will gain 7 more seats in Atlantic Canada, and 16 more in Ontario.

According to 338 results.......Atlantic Canada would increase from 4 CPC seats to 11 (out of 32) and in Ontario from 34 seats to 50.

That would be quite impressive gains defeating incumbent Liberal MPs.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Interesting wide differences in the polls, but with the 338 polls I wonder how they calculate that the CPC will gain 7 more seats in Atlantic Canada, and 16 more in Ontario.
> 
> According to 338 results.......Atlantic Canada would increase from 4 CPC seats to 11 (out of 32) and in Ontario from 34 seats to 50.
> 
> That would be quite impressive gains defeating incumbent Liberal MPs.


It would be amazing defeating corrupted liberals!


----------



## gibor365

_*In first leaders debate, Trudeau hints at another election in 18 months if denied majority”*
- National Post, September 3rd, 2021_


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Because parliament is dissolved. He isn't prime minister.
> He has no power.


The government is still the government in a caretaker capacity. But Parliament is dissolved. There legally must be an election.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> The government is still the government in a caretaker capacity. But Parliament is dissolved. There legally must be an election.


Unless trudea declares martial law


----------



## sags

_Election Canada says in *"extreme situations"* in which it is* "practically impossible"* to carry out the election in one or more ridings, their Chief Electoral Officer could recommend the election be *postponed by up to a week *or* completely start over.* Reasons could include *floods, fires or other unforeseen disasters.*

Elections Canada says the final decision about setting a new election date would *rest with the current prime minister and the cabinet*. Parliament would remain dissolved._



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-elections-question-answers-week-3-1.5295410


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> It would be amazing defeating corrupted liberals!


Amazing.........but not very likely. I find it more likely they have a computer glitch. They announced last week they were having software problems.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> Unless trudea declares martial law


Elections Canada is desperate for poll workers. Can they count on you ?

Hey.......you could make up for the extra $500 OAS you didn't get........win/win.


----------



## ian

Just decided to vote for the candidate this time. 

That eliminates our incumbent Conservative MP. He is a Reform guy. Plus he was one of the 61 or so Conservative MP's who voted against the Conversion Therapy (for minors) Bill. Two strikes. Strike three....he is a big Jason Kenney supporter. He will be re-elected without my vote no doubt (as would an axe murderer in our riding). I just cannot bring myself to vote for him.

Had the exact same problem in prior elections when we had the misfortune to live in Rob Anders riding for a few elections. We could not stomach him let alone bring ourselves to put an X beside his name.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Because parliament is dissolved. He isn't prime minister.
> He has no power.


You need an education on our system.
They're still the government, with all the powers of government. Trudeau is still the prime minister.

Only Parliment is dissolved, which is passing laws and committees and honestly a lot of important work.

Also I'm not sure what exactly the powers of the Crown are in case of emergency.


----------



## sags

Funny, I am in the same position of voting for the best candidate and not my party of choice.

Always voted for the local Liberal MP, but she retired and a lot of people don't like the new candidate. She served a short period of time on city hall and did nothing, doesn't live in the city (let alone the riding) and all she talks about is BLM and such things. The Conservative is a business guy who also doesn't live in the city (let alone the riding). He could have run in his own riding against the incumbent MP but the Conservatives saw an opening to gain another seat here.

I see the above candidates as opportunists, but they will get their share of the "party" voters from people who don't care about that.

I am voting for the NDP candidate. A bright young lady who discusses issues people care about....healthcare, affordable housing, seniors, and she has lived her whole life in the city. I support local candidates and am not interested in "drop in" candidates.

I would not be surprised if the Liberals lose this seat, but they should have nominated a better candidate.


----------



## gibor365

Our Liberal MP Gagan just disappeared from last October  . No one knows where he is .... What a clowns!








Mississauga–Streetsville MP absent from Parliament since October on long-term medical leave


Mississauga–Streetsville MP absent from Parliament since October on long-term medical leave




thepointer.com


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Our Liberal MP Gagan just disappeared from last October  . No one knows where he is .... What a clowns!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mississauga–Streetsville MP absent from Parliament since October on long-term medical leave
> 
> 
> Mississauga–Streetsville MP absent from Parliament since October on long-term medical leave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thepointer.com


He's on long term medical leave.
Perhaps you need help with your reading comprehension.

FYI, you don't need to know his hospital room number, he's on medical leave, the rest is private.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> He's on long term medical leave.
> Perhaps you need help with your reading comprehension.
> 
> FYI, you don't need to know his hospital room number, he's on medical leave, the rest is private.


Read the article!
"The Pointer couldn't find any public notice of the medical leave on Sikand's twitter or his official website , which doesn't have any press release or other communication informing constituents of the leave. The Parlament website which lists all members also doesn't indicate that Sikand is on medical leave"


----------



## Eder

If an mp is out of commission for 9 months he should step down rather than screwing his constituents
Of course that would take ethics


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> If an mp is out of commission for 9 months he should step down rather than screwing his constituents
> Of course that would take ethics


Liberals and ethics don't go together


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> You need an education on our system.
> They're still the government, with all the powers of government. Trudeau is still the prime minister.
> 
> Only Parliment is dissolved, which is passing laws and committees and honestly a lot of important work.
> 
> Also I'm not sure what exactly the powers of the Crown are in case of emergency.


I stand corrected.
Thought they are acting in their roles still for representative purposes since like you said, nothing can pass through Parliament. 
Happy to be educated!


----------



## scorpion_ca

sags said:


> I am voting for the NDP candidate. A bright young lady who discusses issues people care about....healthcare, affordable housing, seniors, and she has lived her whole life in the city. I support local candidates and am not interested in "drop in" candidates.


There are many people who will be voting for NDP that will create an opportunity for Conservative. Do you really want a conservative government in Canada? Vote strategically...


----------



## damian13ster

scorpion_ca said:


> There are many people who will be voting for NDP that will create an opportunity for Conservative. Do you really want a conservative government in Canada? Vote strategically...


If the only alternative is Liberal government? Yes,

#AnyoneButTrudeau


----------



## like_to_retire

scorpion_ca said:


> Do you really want a conservative government in Canada?


Yes, of course.



scorpion_ca said:


> Vote strategically...


Exactly, so don't vote PPC because it ends up a vote for Trudeau.

ltr


----------



## sags

scorpion_ca said:


> There are many people who will be voting for NDP that will create an opportunity for Conservative. Do you really want a conservative government in Canada? Vote strategically...


That is a serious consideration, and I am hoping our local Liberal candidate will show something that shows she could be an effective MP, but in this election campaign the local MPs have been nowhere to be found. I think this election everyone may be forced to vote for the party of choice, and local MPs may not be much of a factor.

NDP voters are counting on a minority Liberal government. If that scenario changes they will move to the Liberals.


----------



## MrMatt

scorpion_ca said:


> There are many people who will be voting for NDP that will create an opportunity for Conservative. Do you really want a conservative government in Canada? Vote strategically...


I do want a conservative government.
We're not going to get one. 
O'Toole is running on a left leaning platform, and seems intent on running to the left of Trudeau 2019


----------



## ian

We will not get a conservative Government no matter what party forms a Government.

If O'Toole wins the most disappointed people will be the social conservatives. They will have their hopes dashed within months.

O'Toole will use them in the same way that Harper did....for votes. Between elections give them some lip service. Lots of duct tape over the lips of any elected MP who is a socon and ban them from voicing one unapproved word in the House.

Perhaps appoint one to the Senate where it is safe. But this time, unlike former Senator, Pentecostal Pastor so called Dr. Meredith check the resume to see if the list of degrees are of the mail order type or whether the candidate has a sexual preference for teenage girls.

Easy to cry and complain if the Liberals are in power, not so easy when it is your own home team.


----------



## sags

The conservatives would try to make a lot of regressive changes, but they won't have a majority and Trudeau is right......there would be another election as soon as the parties restored their war chests. It usually takes about 18 months of stalled government to raise sufficient cash.


----------



## sags

It looks like a repeat of the 2019 election. That comes as no surprise, since not much has changed except the pandemic.

I think Trudeau will continue as PM until the next election in 18 months and then turn it over to the new leader.......quite likely Chrystia Freeland.

The Conservatives will change leaders and it will likely be Pierre Poilivere. They will consolidate power and become a western regional party.

The Greens will fold and the NDP will start talks with the Liberals about merging the two parties. Jagmeet will be offered a high level cabinet position.

The next election in 2023 will look much different than it does today.


----------



## Calgary_Girl

sags said:


> It looks like a repeat of the 2019 election. That comes as no surprise, since not much has changed except the pandemic.
> 
> I think Trudeau will continue as PM until the next election in 18 months and then turn it over to the new leader.......quite likely Chrystia Freeland.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> What a classy choice. 😂


----------



## sags

Hot babe.......but a really bad photo shop effort.......


----------



## damian13ster

Russian literature degree is an upgrade over drama teacher, but if that's the best Liberals can do, the country is screwed


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> Russian literature degree is an upgrade over drama teacher, but if that's the best Liberals can do, the country is screwed


She would be able to talk to Putin and Zelensky in Russian and Ukrainian 🤣


----------



## sags

She could lecture Putin and Zelensky on foreign policy, economics, and trade agreements.

Freeland has an extensive background in business and economics. She has written best seller books and given Ted talk lectures on global economics.

She might be the smartest person on the planet. She is an advocate of MMT economics, which is the future of global finance.

Pierre Poilivere only has a low level BA degree and no experience or education in economics, but will likely be the Con leader.

Pierre won't be able to match up against Chrystia........but who else they got ?


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> She might be the smartest person on the planet.


History is riddled with smart people who don't have a clue and have caused endless damage with their ideas.

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> She could lecture Putin and Zelensky on foreign policy, economics, and trade agreements.
> 
> Freeland has an extensive background in business and economics. She has written best seller books and given Ted talk lectures on global economics.
> 
> She might be the smartest person on the planet. She is an advocate of MMT economics, which is the future of global finance.
> 
> Pierre Poilivere only has a low level BA degree and no experience or education in economics, but will likely be the Con leader.
> 
> Pierre won't be able to match up against Chrystia........but who else they got ?


She can manipulate twitter videos! Maybe also learned that from Putin? That's the extent of skills she displayed so far in her career in politics


----------



## sags

After being formed in 1920, Elections Canada is the longest lasting election agency in the world. 

On election day they are the largest employer in Canada, hiring 250,000 poll workers for the election.

Elections must be held on a Monday, unless it is a holiday and then it is held the next day on a Tuesday.

Elections Canada has the power to delay or defer elections if necessary. The government would have to pick another date.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> She can manipulate twitter videos! Maybe also learned that from Putin? That's the extent of skills she displayed so far in her career in politics


Plus negotiated the biggest Canadian trade deals and crafted the largest budget (2021) in Canadian history........and other stuff.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> She can manipulate twitter videos! Maybe also learned that from Putin? That's the extent of skills she displayed so far in her career in politics


She brilliantly revealed O"Toole trying to manipulate the Canadian people. He was forced to admit he is favor of private "for profit" two tier health care.

Well done Chrystia, well done indeed.


----------



## damian13ster

None of those are positives. Budget is terrible and USMCA is basically Canada bending over and taking it both from Mexico and United States.
Those two items are precisely where she showed her incompetence


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> She revealed O"Toole trying to manipulate the Canadian people. He finally admitted that he is favor of private "for profit" two tier health care.


He always was in favor of that.
Fun fact: for profit two tier health care experienced biggest growth in Canada's history in past 5 years. O'Toole wasn't prime minister at that time.

You could push that crap in 2015 but now we have 6 years of track record.
Of increasing emissions
of worst fiscal management in G7
of increasing privatization in health care
of increasing wait times in health care.

Everything you are accusing O'Toole of, Trudeau did in past 6 years.
Increased emissions, increased division, worsened health care - he did it all


----------



## sags

Not true......those clinics are contractors working for the government. They are paid to temporarily cover the overflow.

After we ramp up the public system.....we will dump them, unless the Cons win and sell out our healthcare to wealthy foreign corporations.


----------



## damian13ster

When Liberals piss on you you pretend it is raining, don't you? 
And those contractors are charity and not working for profit?
The highest increase in spending on health care is being proposed by O'Toole.
And he also isn't using health care spending as political tool.
Withholding funds from Saskatchewan for precisely same thing Quebec is doing during pandemic - diabolical.
How evil do you have to be to cut healthcare spending during pandemic for nothing but politics? 
Trudeau is doing exactly that.
You are better off talking about sunshine and rainbows again like in 2015, because the reality and track record is ugly


----------



## scorpion_ca

MrMatt said:


> I do want a conservative government.
> We're not going to get one.
> O'Toole is running on a left leaning platform, and seems intent on running to the left of Trudeau 2019


How do you know for sure that we are not going to get one unless people start to vote against Conservative party?


----------



## damian13ster

The Ipsos poll, which surveyed over 1,500 Canadians online at the end of August, suggests the Liberals are continuing to stumble as the campaign enters its second half.

Only 17 per cent of respondents said the Liberals were the party with the most momentum, down five points from the start of the campaign. Critically, only 39 per cent of Liberal voters think their own party’s campaign is gaining the most traction.

Thirty-eight per cent of voters also said they are now less likely to vote for the Liberals than they were when the election was called, surpassing all other parties. Just 17 per cent said they are more likely to vote Liberal.

The New Democrats, meanwhile, are seeing their fortunes surge, with one in four voters — and 67 per cent of NDP voters — saying the party has the most momentum, up seven points. It also boasted the lowest number of voters who are less likely to support them, at 26 per cent, while 24 per cent are more likely to cast a ballot for the party.

Where the progressive split appears to be occurring is in voters’ second choices. The NDP was the preferred second choice of a plurality of voters surveyed, with 22 per cent keeping the party in their back pocket, followed by the Liberals at 15 per cent and the Conservatives and Greens at 11 per cent each.

While Liberal and NDP voters chose the other as their second choice most often, Liberal voters far preferred the NDP, at 46 per cent, than NDP voters did the Liberals (39 per cent).




Looks like it is time for Liberal voters to abandon their party. NDP is gaining strength and won't be foolish enough to vote Liberal


----------



## sags

Fortunately for the Liberals, the Conservatives started the race in a big hole.

The Liberals were ahead by double digit numbers when the election was announced, so they have ground to give up without effecting them.

It looks like the Conservatives may have gained a couple of seats here and there, but they appear to have peaked out.

There aren't any more ridings that are up for grabs. Some ridings are set in stone and won't change their politics.

O'Toole has hit the wall. After he loses, his political career will hit the skids, and yet another Trudeau family victory will hit the history books.


----------



## MrMatt

scorpion_ca said:


> How do you know for sure that we are not going to get one unless people start to vote against Conservative party?


Even if they elect the Conservative Party, they're not getting a conservative government.

Like I said, O'Toole is running a left leaning platform, and he's debating himself further left.

I thought their platform was bad enough, but the drift further left is disappointing.


----------



## sags

O'Toole is a Reformer, and is saying whatever it takes to get elected, with no intention of honoring his pledges.

Canadians won't be fooled. Like George W. Bush once said........_Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again. _

I think we can also look to Bush's guidance on the Reformer ideology when he said..._.."Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. _


----------



## damian13ster

Luckily majority of Canadians see through the drama teacher:

Per ipsos:

There have been some other notable developments for Justin Trudeau since the campaign began, particularly that 46% (+2) of Canadians feel Trudeau will say anything to get elected, 36% (unchanged) feel he has a hidden agenda (likely connected to his not-so-hidden desire for a majority government), and only 22% (-6) feel he is the leader they can most trust. Notably, a third (34%, -4) feel that he is in over his head, highest among the candidates.

He is seen as most likely to say anything to get elected, most likely to have a hidden agenda, and most incompetent.
Least trustworthy, least competent......Justin Trudeau


----------



## gibor365

Freeland is ultra left liar and manipulator , granddaughter of Nazi war criminal who is proud of her grandfather achievements ... this is what Canada really need 🤣


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> Yes, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, so don't vote PPC because it ends up a vote for Trudeau.
> 
> ltr


Absolutely! With PR list election system, PPC could’ve get 15-20 seats, but with current one - maximum 1 seat (Max Bernier). They took up to 7 seats from Conservative last elections... Trudeau is happy


----------



## sags

O'Toole has a hidden agenda that he can't even manage to hide.

His stance on gun control continues to baffle everyone. First........he would repeal the Liberal ban of 1500 military style weapons. Then he said he would continue the ban on weapons, but was referencing the ban that was in place before the Liberal ban of those weapons. Then after a couple of days of questioning, he said he would not repeal the Liberal ban, but would do a review of the weapons contained in it. After a review, the Conservatives could easily repeal the weapons in the ban. So much for transparency and honesty.

Erin O'Toole has trouble saying what he means or meaning what he says.

Is he going to repeal the ban on those weapons or not ? It is a simple yes or no answer.

Is he going to allow his MPs to vote to overturn a woman's right to choose.........yes or no ?

Is he going to allow two tier healthcare or not.........yes or no ?

Andrew Scheer tried this sneaky approach and we know how that worked out for him.









COMMENTARY: Conservatives’ Erin O’Toole has shot himself in the foot — twice — with murky stance on gun control - National | Globalnews.ca


Erin O'Toole has shone a bright spotlight on his party’s hard-right agenda on gun control and managed to make himself look untrustworthy in the process, writes Randy Boswell.




globalnews.ca


----------



## sags

Erin O'Toole's voting record negatively affected hard working Canadians and military veterans.

Along with a plethora of cuts to workers, O'Toole did nothing to stop large cuts to the Veteran Affairs department while he was Minister.

Erin O'Toole is Stephen Harper Lite.









Erin O'Toole will bring back sweeping cuts to public services


<p>O’Toole is ready to pick up where Harper left off. His platform is riddled with ways he’ll ‘achieve savings’ and make government ‘more efficient’ by contracting out public services to private companies.</p>




psacunion.ca


----------



## ian

sags said:


> O'Toole has a hidden agenda that he can't even manage to hide.
> 
> His stance on gun control continues to baffle everyone. First........he would repeal the Liberal ban of 1500 military style weapons. Then he said he would continue the ban on weapons, but was referencing the ban that was in place before the Liberal ban of those weapons. Then after a couple of days of questioning, he said he would not repeal the Liberal ban, but would do a review of the weapons contained in it. After a review, the Conservatives could easily repeal the weapons in the ban. So much for transparency and honesty.
> 
> Erin O'Toole has trouble saying what he means or meaning what he says.
> 
> Is he going to repeal the ban on those weapons or not ? It is a simple yes or no answer.
> 
> Is he going to allow his MPs to vote to overturn a woman's right to choose.........yes or no ?
> 
> Is he going to allow two tier healthcare or not.........yes or no ?
> 
> Andrew Scheer tried this sneaky approach and we know how that worked out for him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COMMENTARY: Conservatives’ Erin O’Toole has shot himself in the foot — twice — with murky stance on gun control - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Erin O'Toole has shone a bright spotlight on his party’s hard-right agenda on gun control and managed to make himself look untrustworthy in the process, writes Randy Boswell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Of course O'Toole will not do this. No Conservative PM who wants to get re-elected would ever do this. Simply not in the cards sags. No matter what some foaming at the mouth NDPers or Liberals might claim. There was nothing sneaky about Scheer. He just misunderstood that it is Canadian voters that will get him elected, not socons within his own party.

He tried it on and the powers behind the throne outed him on subsidized child edu costs and then had him unceremoniously tossed out in typical Tory style. They seem to like eating their young.

The people who yield the power in the backrooms and control the Conservative Party are very cognizant of what will fly with voters and what is DOA.

So you can forget all the socon oriented legislation, the balancing the budget nonsense, cutting the fat, or the fiscal cutbacks BS. It will be business as usual. Take care of my friends, get re-elected. Rinse twice, repeat. I have no doubt that O'Toole understands this and that he will govern as usual...by the polls. Just as Trudeau will.


----------



## sags

Trudeau got pelted with stones at a stop in London, Ontario.

Nobody hurt but some reporters got hit too. It is getting out of hand and the police should be arresting some people.

If they don't make examples of these idiots it will only escalate, and people will arrive from the other side looking for an excuse to fight.

These dummies have been watching too much Fox News.


----------



## damian13ster

Jesus, I know he is corrupt and incompetent but that is not a reason to voice your opinion.
Go to the ballots and send him to unemployment


----------



## gibor365

Why do we have only 1 English leaders' debates and 2 French ones?! This is truly ridiculous and looks like this is Truedau decision









COMMENTARY: Three leaders’ debates — two of which are in French — simply aren’t enough - National | Globalnews.ca


We shouldn't be confined to the two official commission-sanctioned debates, Rob Breakenridge says. 'Let’s just open it up.'




globalnews.ca


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Erin O'Toole's voting record negatively affected hard working Canadians and military veterans.
> 
> Along with a plethora of cuts to workers, O'Toole did nothing to stop large cuts to the Veteran Affairs department while he was Minister.
> 
> Erin O'Toole is Stephen Harper Lite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erin O'Toole will bring back sweeping cuts to public services
> 
> 
> <p>O’Toole is ready to pick up where Harper left off. His platform is riddled with ways he’ll ‘achieve savings’ and make government ‘more efficient’ by contracting out public services to private companies.</p>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> psacunion.ca


What a BS from 
Public Service from one of Canada's largest unions, whose target is very simple 
_"PSAC strives to enhance its members' quality of life"._

Trudeau is the WORST PM for any really working Canadians!


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Trudeau got pelted with stones at a stop in London, Ontario.
> 
> Nobody hurt but some reporters got hit too. It is getting out of hand and the police should be arresting some people.
> 
> If they don't make examples of these idiots it will only escalate, and people will arrive from the other side looking for an excuse to fight.
> 
> These dummies have been watching too much Fox News.


Police and RCMP should've arrest Trudeau a long time ago ! but our dictator order them to stop all investigations!

P.S. They should've use rotten tomatoes
😂

trudeau is scared of people "A Liberal event in Bolton was cancelled 10 days ago over security concerns." ! Lock him up in his bunker


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Trudeau got pelted with stones at a stop in London, Ontario.
> 
> Nobody hurt but some reporters got hit too. It is getting out of hand and the police should be arresting some people.


I doubt they were typical London people. Sounds like they were anti-mask nuts and Bernier supporters. Unhinged.


----------



## sags

Interesting that the polls add up to 100% of the voters. Are there no undecided voters, or are the polls only for "committed" voters ?

I read that somewhere around 20% of voters are undecided, so they will decide the election.


----------



## sags

For a balanced view of Canadian politics and the election, I recommend the Canada Talks station on Sirius XM.

I don't know if it is available anywhere else, but if you have a Sirius subscription for your vehicle or home, you can access it on all devices.

The station has some conservative leaning talk programs, and some left leaning programs. I especially like Peter Mansbridge show at 12 noon and 5 pm.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> What a BS from
> Public Service from one of Canada's largest unions, whose target is very simple
> _"PSAC strives to enhance its members' quality of life"._
> 
> Trudeau is the WORST PM for any really working Canadians!


What is so evil about unions enhancing the quality of life for workers ?


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Interesting that the polls add up to 100% of the voters. Are there no undecided voters, or are the polls only for "committed" voters ?
> 
> I read that somewhere around 20% of voters are undecided, so they will decide the election.


Most polls show results among decided voters. They specify that. Just need to read


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> What is so evil about unions enhancing the quality of life for workers ?


Just like Communism, on paper unions look great, but in practice, especially over time, not so good. 
They become greedy and power hungry and harm companies by driving up costs and can create a poor relationship between the workers and management.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I doubt they were typical London people. Sounds like they were anti-mask nuts and Bernier supporters. Unhinged.


In general the terrorists aren't typical.

The problem is that when people listen to them, it encourages them.
Look at the Ryerson attack, now they're renaming the school.

As far as the Anti-Trudeau protests, they shouldn't be violent. However I'm not surprised, he treats those who disagree with him with so much contempt, of course they're being enraged.
That being said, I don't care if you tear down a statue, egg Bernier, or throw rocks at Trudeau. Lock them up, for a LONG time. Political violence is not acceptable, if we can't discuss and debate the issues, we can't solve the problems.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> In general the terrorists aren't typical.
> 
> The problem is that when people listen to them, it encourages them.
> Look at the Ryerson attack, now they're renaming the school.
> 
> As far as the Anti-Trudeau protests, they shouldn't be violent. However I'm not surprised, he treats those who disagree with him with so much contempt, of course they're being enraged.
> That being said, I don't care if you tear down a statue, egg Bernier, or throw rocks at Trudeau. Lock them up, for a LONG time. Political violence is not acceptable, if we can't discuss and debate the issues, we can't solve the problems.


So why don't these protestors get involved in the democratic process and spend their time discussing and debating the issues with fellow Canadians ?


----------



## sags

like_to_retire said:


> Just like Communism, on paper unions look great, but in practice, especially over time, not so good.
> They become greedy and power hungry and harm companies by driving up costs and can create a poor relationship between the workers and management.
> 
> ltr


People can make the choice to work for a unionized or non-unionized employer.

Many industries are represented by both unionized and non-unionized companies......manufacturing, construction, healthcare, transportation, etc.

The complaints I hear are from people who want all the benefits of working in a unionized shop but none of the responsibilities.

From decades of experience in unionized workplaces, I can say those people would be considered unwelcome "free loaders" by other employees.

The companies don't want employees with that attitude either. They are considered disruptive to the workplace and a potential future problem.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> In general the terrorists aren't typical.
> 
> The problem is that when people listen to them, it encourages them.
> Look at the Ryerson attack, now they're renaming the school.
> 
> As far as the Anti-Trudeau protests, they shouldn't be violent. However I'm not surprised, he treats those who disagree with him with so much contempt, of course they're being enraged.
> That being said, I don't care if you tear down a statue, egg Bernier, or throw rocks at Trudeau. Lock them up, for a LONG time. Political violence is not acceptable, if we can't discuss and debate the issues, we can't solve the problems.


He is a narcissist. He simply doesn't understand what the problem is.
Branding the protesters as anti-vaxxers is also inaccurate, although maybe it is for political reasons.

Honestly, the entire situation is to his advantage when it comes to politics. No arrest too is weird as hell. Wouldn't be shocked if it was Liberal staffers agitating to resuscitate the campaign.
People are pissed. It doesn't take much to push them over the edge. Using agitators is not a new tactic in politics


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> People can make the choice to work for a unionized or non-unionized employer.
> 
> Many industries are represented by both unionized and non-unionized companies......manufacturing, construction, healthcare, transportation, etc.
> 
> The complaints I hear are from people who want all the benefits of working in a unionized shop but none of the responsibilities.


I worked in a union shop.
I would not choose to work in a union shop if I could.
There are some advantages, but there are also many disadvantages.

The biggest problem is that the unions abuse their monopoly power.
The only check on union power is the employers ability to pay, which is why the only unions really left are governments, since their ability to pay is backed up by thousands of people with guns to take your stuff.

To be clear, I'm talking specifically about parasitic North American unions.
In Europe Unions appear to be different, in part because they actually seem to be like a parallel management structure.

They kill employers, they also spend member money on political issues, irrespective of the members needs.
I really think it is inappropriate to spend union resources on political issues.


----------



## damian13ster

In my industry we also have professional organizations and unions. Mandatory.
They suck. If you are above average employee then you get shafted.
If you are bad at your job then unions are great


----------



## sags

It is your choice to not work in a unionized workplace, but don't complain if they have higher wages, better benefits and work conditions.

There are many people working in unionized workplaces beyond the public service. Auto workers, construction workers, manufacturing workers, healthcare workers in private LTC and retirement homes, oil workers, transportation workers, dock workers...........

My son works for a big construction company that are unionized. My wife works for a privately owned retirement home that is unionized.

They both earn higher wages and have better benefits than similar non-union workplaces in the same business sector.

There is a misconception that all union workers are in the public service.


----------



## damian13ster

Ask nurses on whether they make more money than the contractors currently being onboarded. 
Unions average everyone out.
Therefore if you are above average - you lose.
If you are below average - you gain.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> What is so evil about unions enhancing the quality of life for workers ?


On account of non-unions members 😁 Similar system was in USSR.... Don’t you get that union’s media 100% biased?!


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> On account of non-unions members 😁 Similar system was in USSR.... Don’t you get that union’s media 100% biased?!


Of course it is biased. They support the political party that best represents their members needs.


----------



## sags

Canada should have asked Cuba to become a Province or Territory years ago.

Today it would be a prosperous Caribbean nation where Canadians could visit or retire with all the comforts of home.

I vote we give Cuba some of our extra vaccine and gets the talks rolling.

Bienvenido, Cuba !


----------



## ian

I think that it is far more important to ensure that no Party remains in Government for more that two or three terms. Eight-ten years. Throw them out after that. They become far too complacent, too many beaks in the trough, and far too arrogant. Nothing like a minority Government to keep them on their toes. This affliction hits both parties equally. Far more important to me than choosing Liberal or Conservative.

The other thing that is needed is a good Opposition Party. Just compare the difference in Opposition between Harper vs Scheer. Harper was a pro in Opposition. He kept the animals in line and did a great job in Opposition.

Scheer's short time as Opposition Leader was a **** show. He was so busy herding cats and letting the animals run the show that he was an abysmal failure in the Opposition role and thus had no chance at the PM's job.

I was less than impressed with O'Toole as Opposition Leader. He clearly had trouble within in his caucus. Took him far too long to bounce the likes of Derek Sloan. He made too many gaffes but compared to Scheer he was a star (who wouldn't be).


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Canada should have asked Cuba to become a Province or Territory years ago.
> 
> Today it would be a prosperous Caribbean nation where Canadians could visit or retire with all the comforts of home.
> 
> I vote we give Cuba some of our extra vaccine and gets the talks rolling.
> 
> Bienvenido, Cuba !


I was talking long time ago that better to have Cuba i than QC as a Canadian province lol


----------



## Eder

Great climate plan
Trudeau tries killing our oil sand industry
While we continue to export thermal coal from the USA that paid no carbon tax
Here’s the open barges shipping the crap from Surrey to Texada island to be reloaded on ocean going ships to China









as much co2 ships out ofbc ports in the form of foreign coal as Alberta produces in the oil sands yet the us coal employs no one and pays no taxes


----------



## MrMatt

ian said:


> The other thing that is needed is a good Opposition Party. Just compare the difference in Opposition between Harper vs Scheer. Harper was a pro in Opposition. He kept the animals in line and did a great job in Opposition.


Harper is exceptionally intelligent and capable.
He also had been behind the scenes for years, and people trusted that he was making the best trade offs he could.

Quite honestly, nobody could realistically fill his shoes. Scheer never really had a chance.

That being said, I think the CPC learned something, and is willing to sit behind O'Toole.

As far as Opposition, Trudeau has treated parliment with contempt, and gotten away with it.
Also the COVID issue really sucked a lot of the strength out of the opposition.


----------



## sags

A Conservative MP posted on social media the Conservative policy is they WILL repeal the Liberal ban on assault weapons, contrary to what O'Toole says.

In response, O'Toole said he is the leader and he alone decides policy.

At the same time that O'Toole is announcing $100 billion in more spending to Canadians, his MP Pierre Poilivere is posting videos on Youtube decrying the spending and increased debt.

Even during the election campaign, the cats are showing O'Toole can't herd them.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> A Conservative MP posted on social media the Conservative policy is they WILL repeal the Liberal ban on assault weapons, contrary to what O'Toole says.
> 
> In response, O'Toole said he is the leader and he alone decides policy.
> 
> At the same time that O'Toole is announcing $100 billion in more spending to Canadians, his MP Pierre Poilivere is posting videos on Youtube decrying the spending and increased debt.
> 
> Even during the election campaign, the cats are showing O'Toole can't herd them.


That is exactly what I mean about letting the animals run the zoo. O'Toole has taken too long to punish the miscreants within his party, hence the ones that remain see no danger to to their careers in the near team by acting against the interests of the Party.

IF O'Toole is elected PM in a minority situation he will need to quickly bring out his big stick and duct tape for use on these miscreants. And then be seen to reward those who fall in line. If he fails to do this his minority Gov't will be marred by public internal dissent. 

There are already some skeletons...that dopey Michelle Rempel and a few others foolishly signed their names to the very embarrassing 'Buffalo Declaration'.


----------



## gibor365

ban on "assault weapons " is not an issue at all, why do you always bring it up?!


----------



## sags

Ask Erin O'Toole why he can't give a straight answer on a "non-issue".


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Ask Erin O'Toole why he can't give a straight answer on a "non-issue".


I don't care .....why to give answer on a non-issue?!


----------



## ian

sags said:


> Ask Erin O'Toole why he can't give a straight answer on a "non-issue".


I do not think the answer matters. Pre election and post election are two VERY different worlds. Early and immediate Alzheimers kicks in to the Party in power shortly after the glow of being elected fades...not matter whether it is Liberal or Conservative.


----------



## MrMatt

ian said:


> There are already some skeletons...that dopey Michelle Rempel and a few others foolishly signed their names to the very embarrassing 'Buffalo Declaration'.


They are attempting to articulate the unfair treatment of the West and Alberta in particular.

What's "embarrasing" about that? 
Trying to explain a problem is "embarrasing"?


----------



## Eder

I think if Michelle Rempel could have been convinced to run as leader she would be elected in a land slide


----------



## sags

If O'Toole can manage a win, he may gain the clout needed to put down any rebellion.

The "wanna be" replacements will be forced take a step back and look 4 years down the road.

Winning ways can give a leader a lot of clout. Just like it did for the dummy Trump.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> I think if Michelle Rempel could have been convinced to run as leader she would be elected in a land slide


I like this girl


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> I think if Michelle Rempel could have been convinced to run as leader she would be elected in a land slide


She is quite fantastic. Really intelligent and capable. I would have loved to see that. 



gibor365 said:


> I like this girl


 Person or woman. Not a girl. Sadly, I still believe some are not ready to have strong women in the lead even on a sub-conscious level. One should not be infantizing someone that would have made a great Prime Minister. (sorry, I know this is a side rant, but I needed to say it)


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> She is quite fantastic. Really intelligent and capable. I would have loved to see that.
> 
> 
> Person or woman. Not a girl. Sadly, I still believe some are not ready to have strong women in the lead even on a sub-conscious level. One should not be infantizing someone that would have made a great Prime Minister. (sorry, I know this is a side rant, but I needed to say it)


Uhh, not everyone sees the term "girl" as infantilizing.

Plus after our pretty-boy PM, we need some gender equity.

"Lets go girls!"






On a personal note, I was once a victim of sexual discrimination at summer camp.
My supervisor was a younger, less qualified girl, she knew it, I knew it, pretty much everyone new it.

But they had their gender quotas.... so there we were.
It was actually a pretty good summer, despite the loss in pay, I had a blast, we worked very well together. Most people thought we were dating. (We weren't, plus she was way out of my league anyway). 
She had her strengths, I had mine, we did our jobs, and it was great.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> Uhh, not everyone sees the term "girl" as infantilizing.
> 
> Plus after our pretty-boy PM, we need some gender equity.
> 
> "Lets go girls!"


I can tell you as a female, many women do not appreciate being called a 'girl' when it refers to their profession. I have corrected many men by referring to them as 'boy' during the meeting, and the point has always been understood. Would you refer to your boss as boy or girl? 

If you are insulting our PM as a 'pretty-boy', it's the over term as 'pretty-boy' which is in reference to their looks, the female equivalents of that term is much worst.

BTW, I do like the song... but "let's go girls' is a different context than referring to an MP or candidate as girl.


----------



## ian

gibor365 said:


> On account of non-unions members 😁 Similar system was in USSR.... Don’t you get that union’s media 100% biased?!


Some of the most important gains by labour unions have not been monetary. They have been for workplace safety and in some instances these changes were the forerunners of Government workplace safety legislation.

Keep in mind that when unions raise pay and benefits for their members, those raises filter up to non union management people.

I spent my career in non union and management positions. I am acutely aware that if it was not for unions workers in the mining, forestry, etc sectors would be working 10 hours a day, six days a week in very dangerous health and physical environments. Just as they are in third world countries.

There are many very good unions out there. And there a a few very poor ones as well. No different than management or corporate styles.


----------



## sags

Since when is having a female boss considered "sexual discrimination" ?

I must be slipping on all the latest terms.

I admit to a habit of saying "thanks, hon" to some women I have known for decades helping me with something.

I am going to have to work on that. I must say that a rigidly polite society may not be what we really want or need.

Everyone will think we are British.


----------



## gibor365

Plugging Along said:


> She is quite fantastic. Really intelligent and capable. I would have loved to see that.
> 
> 
> Person or woman. Not a girl. Sadly, I still believe some are not ready to have strong women in the lead even on a sub-conscious level. One should not be infantizing someone that would have made a great Prime Minister. (sorry, I know this is a side rant, but I needed to say it)


Obviously I meant a person! When I referring to Trudeau as boy , I also mean a person (but a bad one). 
P.S. when I speak/write in English, I translate from Russian... and in Russian it’s not polite to tell woman (as it referred to gender) or especially “person”!
To tell middle age lady “girl” is a compliment, to tell “woman” - observation that she looks old , to tell “person” - that she doesn’t look like female 😁


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> I can tell you as a female, many women do not appreciate being called a 'girl' when it refers to their profession. I have corrected many men by referring to them as 'boy' during the meeting, and the point has always been understood. Would you refer to your boss as boy or girl?


I refer to people casually as guys and girls or boys and girls, irrespective of age. Yes I refer to 60yr old men as "boys" at times, despite the fact that I'm still decades away.
Professionally I use their name, or terms like colleague/coworker or job title.



> If you are insulting our PM as a 'pretty-boy', it's the over term as 'pretty-boy' which is in reference to their looks, the female equivalents of that term is much worst.


Not really an insult. Just an observation that he got elected on his looks.
To be fair, some see reality as an insult.



> BTW, I do like the song... but "let's go girls' is a different context than referring to an MP or candidate as girl.


Hah, normally I get grief for my atrocious musical selection.


----------



## MrMatt

ian said:


> Some of the most important gains by labour unions have not been monetary. They have been for workplace safety and in some instances these changes were the forerunners of Government workplace safety legislation.


Exactly, now that we have laws, unions have outlived their usefulness.




> I spent my career in non union and management positions. I am acutely aware that if it was not for unions workers in the mining, forestry, etc sectors would be working 10 hours a day, six days a week in very dangerous health and physical environments. Just as they are in third world countries.


They should fix the laws and remove the exceptions for those industries.



> There are many very good unions out there. And there a a few very poor ones as well. No different than management or corporate styles.


I don't care, I simply shouldn't have to pay for union largess with tax money.
If they weren't taxpayer subsidized, and the law respected our charter rights, I'd have no qualms at all.


----------



## gibor365

All unions should be banned! Nowadays, if union member does nothing and jerking off all day long, it’s impossible to fire him/her. Non-unionized workers are much easier target


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> All unions should be banned! Nowadays, if union member does nothing and jerking off all day long, it’s impossible to fire him/her. Non-unionized workers are much easier target


Where is that law that companies can't terminate union members ?

Companies can terminate anyone they want........any time they want.

The union can only provide legal counsel to have the employee re-instated if the company didn't have sufficient grounds to terminate them.

The union can't order the company to take the employee back.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Where is that law that companies can't terminate union members ?
> 
> Companies can terminate anyone they want.
> 
> The union can only provide legal counsel to have the employee re-instated if the company didn't have sufficient grounds to terminate them.
> 
> The union can't order the company to take the employee back.


Yeah, right 🤣 in theory !


----------



## gibor365

Obviously, socialist creation - Unions , will be always supporting Liberals and spreading lies against Conservatives


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Obviously I meant a person! When I referring to Trudeau as boy , I also mean a person (but a bad one).
> P.S. *when I speak/write in English, I translate from Russian.*.. and in Russian it’s not polite to tell woman (as it referred to gender) or especially “person”!
> To tell middle age lady “girl” is a compliment, to tell “woman” - observation that she looks old , to tell “person” - that she doesn’t look like female 😁


 ... imagine, living and working in Canada, (Mississauga, Ontario, Canada) for the past 22+ years still require translation from English to Russian? 

Also, I wonder how female employees are considered at the banks (the Canadian one, like CIBC) these days? The "girls" must be working really hard at home these days.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> All unions should be banned! Nowadays, if union member does nothing and jerking off all day long, it’s impossible to fire him/her. Non-unionized workers are much easier target


 ... that's like saying non-unionized workers can jerk off all day long ... like on this forum.... with impunity.


----------



## sags

Any employee in a unionized setting who believes they can do whatever they want with impunity.......is heading for a harsh lesson in reality.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> Since when is having a female boss considered "sexual discrimination" ?
> 
> I must be slipping on all the latest terms.
> 
> I admit to a habit of saying "thanks, hon" to some women I have known for decades helping me with something.
> 
> I am going to have to work on that. I must say that a rigidly polite society may not be what we really want or need.
> 
> Everyone will think we are British.


Having a female boss is not sexual discrimination, referring to her as a 'girl' in a professional context is insulting. 

I personally don't care when someone says thanks hon, but I know many that do. The question is would you say 'thanks hon to your male counterparts'. If yes, then continue, if it's only when it's a female then no so much. I say this only in profession settings.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> Having a female boss is not sexual discrimination, referring to her as a 'girl' in a professional context is insulting.


I had a female boss because they had to hit their 50/50 gender ratio. That was the discrimination.
To be fair, she was excellent, and one of the more qualified females, but she was far less qualified than myself.



> I personally don't care when someone says thanks hon, but I know many that do. The question is would you say 'thanks hon to your male counterparts'. If yes, then continue, if it's only when it's a female then no so much. I say this only in profession settings.


I find women do the "hon" thing a lot more.
There are some terms that are dismissive, and some that are not, and yes they vary by gender.

But seeing as gender doesn't matter, and it's not a real thing, I don't see how it matters.


----------



## gibor365

We wanted to vote on Sep 10 advanced poll , but we still didn’t receive voter cards 🤔 (1st time in 22 years we live here). Can we vote by presenting driver licenses only?!


----------



## sags

Latest polls.......

Conservatives are slipping a little every day in the polls.

The Liberals are projected to win the most seats 140 to 133. The NDP will likely hold the balance of power.



https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## sags

Maybe people aren't liking the personal attacks on Trudeau.

Trudeau looked like a strong leader declaring he won't back down from tyranny.

He reminded me of another Canadian hero of days gone by......Sgt. Dudley Do-Right of the RCMP.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Maybe people aren't liking the personal attacks on Trudeau.
> 
> Trudeau looked like a strong leader declaring he *won't back down from tyranny.*
> 
> He reminded me of another Canadian hero of days gone by......Sgt. Dudley Do-Right of the RCMP.
> 
> View attachment 22130


Sure, he always will be tyrant!


----------



## Retiredguy

Eder said:


> Great climate plan
> Trudeau tries killing our oil sand industry
> While we continue to export thermal coal from the USA that paid no carbon tax
> Here’s the open barges shipping the crap from Surrey to Texada island to be reloaded on ocean going ships to China
> View attachment 22124
> 
> 
> as much co2 ships out ofbc ports in the form of foreign coal as Alberta produces in the oil sands yet the us coal employs no one and pays no taxes


Fake news Eder. Those are wood chips...lol.
.https://thetyee.ca/News/2019/02/01/Coal-Transfer-Facility-Cancelled/


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> Some of the most important gains by labour unions have not been monetary. They have been for workplace safety and in some instances these changes were the forerunners of Government workplace safety legislation.
> 
> Keep in mind that when unions raise pay and benefits for their members, those raises filter up to non union management people.
> 
> I spent my career in non union and management positions. I am acutely aware that if it was not for unions workers in the mining, forestry, etc sectors would be working 10 hours a day, six days a week in very dangerous health and physical environments. Just as they are in third world countries.
> 
> There are many very good unions out there. And there a a few very poor ones as well. No different than management or corporate styles.


So one should be able to work in ANY workplace and simply choose whether they want to belong in a union or not.
When that is the case then only good unions will be rewarded, and crappy one exploiting the workers will cease to exist. Right now they still exist and still are powerful simply because they are mandatory for certain workplaces or industries.


----------



## Eclectic21

gibor365 said:


> We wanted to vote on Sep 10 advanced poll , but we still didn’t receive voter cards 🤔 (1st time in 22 years we live here).


Probably due to the short time frame ... though for me, IIRC it's three elections I have voted in without a voter card. It's a confirmation/convenience for the voter - not a requirement.



gibor365 said:


> Can we vote by presenting driver licenses only?!


I've done it before and doubt it has changed. You can check at the Elections Canada web site. Elections Canada - Home page for the 2021 Federal Election

Cheers


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> So one should be able to work in ANY workplace and simply choose whether they want to belong in a union or not.
> When that is the case then only good unions will be rewarded, and crappy one exploiting the workers will cease to exist. Right now they still exist and still are powerful simply because they are mandatory for certain workplaces or industries.


Union workers and voters are in the same boat. They get the union or the Government that they deserve. If the members/voters pay attention to the issues and the candidates things tend to work out a little better.

Just like management usually gets the union that they deserve. 

Here in Alberta the nurses union is getting tough. Why? Easy...the Government has been laying them off and replacing then with casual part time staff w/no benefits. Then the Government announces five months ago prior to negotiating the new contract than nurses are among the highest paid in Canada and they want to negotiate a five percent pay cut. The Government just declared an emergency. Vacations cancelled, forced OT in some instances.

Now there is a shortage of nurses in Alberta. They are sourcing nurses from out of province through contract labour firms. And paying as much as double the hourly rate that they are now paying. 

What kind of nurses union do you think the Alberta Government deserves??? Our Alberta MLA's are among the highest paid in the country but no sign of the Government cutting back MLA salaries, payments for being on committees, etc.


----------



## Eder

Michelle is too smart to commit to fixing canada
Too bad 
Something about the pm job always attracts the slugs & low lifes


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> So one should be able to work in ANY workplace and simply choose whether they want to belong in a union or not.
> When that is the case then only good unions will be rewarded, and crappy one exploiting the workers will cease to exist. Right now they still exist and still are powerful simply because they are mandatory for certain workplaces or industries.


You think people should be able to work for the union wages and benefits but not belong to the union ?

That wouldn't go over well with the other workers and no company would want that problem.

Towards the end of my employment, the company did negotiate to bring in contract workers to replace retirees, but they were paid minimum wage with no benefits.They were also put on night shift to keep them separate from regular employees. 

Thefts of employee and company property started happening and contract workers would not show up for work.

I think the company ended that idea shortly after.


----------



## Eder

Retiredguy said:


> Fake news Eder. Those are wood chips...lol.
> .https://thetyee.ca/News/2019/02/01/Coal-Transfer-Facility-Cancelled/


am I a few years behind? We don’t export USA thermal coal anymore?


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> Union workers and voters are in the same boat. They get the union or the Government that they deserve. If the members/voters pay attention to the issues and the candidates things tend to work out a little better.
> 
> Just like management usually gets the union that they deserve.
> 
> Here in Alberta the nurses union is getting tough. Why? Easy...the Government has been laying them off and replacing then with casual part time staff w/no benefits. Then the Government announces five months ago prior to negotiating the new contract than nurses are among the highest paid in Canada and they want to negotiate a five percent pay cut. The Government just declared an emergency. Vacations cancelled, forced OT in some instances.
> 
> Now there is a shortage of nurses in Alberta. They are sourcing nurses from out of province through contract labour firms. And paying as much as double the hourly rate that they are now paying.
> 
> What kind of nurses union do you think the Alberta Government deserves??? Our Alberta MLA's are among the highest paid in the country but no sign of the Government cutting back MLA salaries, payments for being on committees, etc.


I think Alberta nurses deserve not to have to be in an union.
Clearly market value for nurses is higher than what union negotiated.
Nurses in Alberta would be better off without the union. It would also help if unions in Alberta didn't spend billions for shiny new headquarters in recent 5 years but instead left that money to its members


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> You think people should be able to work for the union wages and benefits but not belong to the union ?
> 
> That wouldn't go over well with the other workers and no company would want that problem.
> 
> Towards the end of my employment, the company did negotiate to bring in contract workers to replace retirees, but they were paid minimum wage with no benefits.They were also put on night shift to keep them separate from regular employees.
> 
> Thefts of employee and company property started happening and contract workers would not show up for work.
> 
> I think the company ended that idea shortly after.


No. I believe people should work for the wages they are worth.
Above average workers would have better pay and better benefits without the union.
Below average workers would have worse pay and worse benefits without the union.
It really isn't a very complicated concept.


----------



## sags

If the nurses don't want to be in a union.......they can leave and find employment in the private sector......manufacturing plants, doctor offices, labs etc.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> No. I believe people should work for the wages they are worth.
> Above average workers would have better pay and better benefits without the union.
> Below average workers would have worse pay and worse benefits without the union.
> It really isn't a very complicated concept.


Except it doesn't work that way in a capitalist system because it was designed to be adversarial.

Workers want as much as they can get and employers want to pay as little as possible.

If you are a great employee worth more money.......why aren't you already earning more money ?

What do you think upper management talk about when they discuss labour costs........how to pay employees more ?


----------



## Retiredguy

Eder said:


> am I a few years behind? We don’t export USA thermal coal anymore?


Lots. Westshore Terminals south of Vancouver is a major point of export. China is a bit player (1%), as is the UK (2%). Most goes to Korea, Japan and Chile.


----------



## sags

In a truly capitalist system.........the market would decide pay rates based on supply and demand.

Problem is that is never allowed to happen, because when the pool of labor is tight, business groups lobby the government to bring in cheap foreign labor.

The CERB benefit exposed what happens when the labor market is tight due to people being paid not to work. The price of labor goes up, but the lobby groups quickly demand the government cut off benefits and force people back to work.

The sad part is those businesses couldn't compete with the CERB that paid less than minimum wage, which raises questions on their business model.


----------



## Eder

I suppose those


Retiredguy said:


> Lots. Westshore Terminals south of Vancouver is a major point of export. China is a bit player (1%), as is the UK (2%). Most goes to Korea, Japan and Chile.


Nice, thanks for setting me straight! 30 million tonnes about right?


----------



## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> We wanted to vote on Sep 10 advanced poll , but we still didn’t receive voter cards 🤔 (1st time in 22 years we live here). Can we vote by presenting driver licenses only?!


yes you can. I always forget my voters card. photo Government issued id and something matching with you address like a utility bill


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> We wanted to vote on Sep 10 advanced poll , but we still didn’t receive voter cards 🤔 (1st time in 22 years we live here). Can we vote by presenting driver licenses only?!


Elections Canada says they expect the cards to be delivered by September 10. It may still be on its way to you.


----------



## sags

The Conservatives have the same level of support they had in 2019......around 34%.

The Liberals have lost support from 2019........from 33% down to 31%.

The NDP have gained support from 2019........from 18% to 20%.

The Liberals are losing support to the NDP. It appears the electorate is becoming more progressive, likely due to younger voters.

It will be interesting to see how the shift in support to the NDP effects the overall outcome.

A split in left leaning votes could help the Conservatives elect more MPs.


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> I think Alberta nurses deserve not to have to be in an union.
> Clearly market value for nurses is higher than what union negotiated.
> Nurses in Alberta would be better off without the union. It would also help if unions in Alberta didn't spend billions for shiny new headquarters in recent 5 years but instead left that money to its members


My understand is that people do have the right to 'opt out' of being a union member. They still have to pay the same amount of union dues. Not certain if it goes to the union or to a registered charity of their choice.

For a time I worked for a huge US multinational company that made a commitment to employees who stayed in the DB plan rather than move to a DC plan. Eight employees selected DB. Six years later the company reneged on the commitment. Those six employees belonged to the IBEW. This union stood by them. Went forward with litigation and they were successful. These six employees could never have done this on their own without the union.


----------



## Eclectic21

Plugging Along said:


> yes you can. I always forget my voters card. photo Government issued id and something matching with you address like a utility bill


Most of the time I can recall voting ... it was voter card and DL. You've reminded me that at times the voter card was forgotten, which made it DL only.

Quickly checking the Elections Canada web site - the second piece of id such as a utility bill is for when one is using a non-gov't id like a hospital or educational institution id card. Basically places where one's address is less likely to be up to date.

Cheers

*PS*
I'd think the one situation where a utility bill would be needed with a DL is if one moved and still have a DL with the old address on it.


----------



## sags

When I first started work the salary supervisors were paid 10% above their "highest paid" unionized employee, so supervisors wanted to have some skilled trades in their group to considerably boost their pay.

It was thought to create a "pecking order" kind of situation.......like the "boss" gets paid more because they are the boss.

When I retired...supervisors were earning considerably less than we were and were very vocal and unhappy about it.

I don't know why it changed, but suspect that management were easy targets for the company to apply "austerity" measures.


----------



## sags

It would be a good election policy for a political party to put forth an easier path for workers to unionize.

Rather than trying to mandate minimum wages, the government should be aiding workers to organize and negotiate their own increases in wages and benefits.

The data shows that stagnant and declining wages followed in lock step with the retraction of unions generally.

There is a reason why "right to work" US States are mired in low incomes and poverty. That isn't the kind of future we want in Canada.


----------



## sags

The latest talk radio is saying the election is a dead heat.

The politicos are wondering what changed the trend. Is it the gun control issue ? Climate change ? Economics ?

Something has changed the trend line in a hurry. Some think it is a gun control issue.

When removing the ban on assault weapons brings forth mental images of the mass killings in Canada........it is visceral for Canadians.

Canadians "just know" they don't want those kind of weapons around, especially when they have no practical use for hunters etc.


----------



## damian13ster

I think election is going to go Liberal way.
Paying someone to throw gravel in general vicinity was a genius campaign move.
We moved from discussion of policy, problems, solutions to those problems, track record - where Liberals are terrible and have nothing positive
Into a circus of investigations, segregation, blame, etc. Election turned from having some substance into a circus - and with a clown on the helm it benefits Liberals.
Will see if debates will get the discussion back on policy, ideas, and solution to problems facing Canadians but I do not have my hopes up


----------



## sags

The Conservative Taliban almost blinded our PM so Canadians are rightfully angry about it.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> I think election is going to go Liberal way.


Maybe.


> Paying someone to throw gravel in general vicinity was a genius campaign move.


I don't think they faked it.
I don't think it's a good move even if they did.



> We moved from discussion of policy, problems, solutions to those problems, track record - where Liberals are terrible and have nothing positive


That's the key, and I honestly don't think they're self aware enough to know they're doing a really bad job.
Trudeau definately doesn't know, but maybe some backroom guy does.


----------



## sags

Elections are a golden opportunity for the opposition to point out all the flaws of the government.

All the Conservatives have to do is convince the Canadians public the Liberals have done a "terrible job".

Thus far.....it doesn't appear that they have convinced anyone but their hard core supporters.


----------



## damian13ster

I don't think it is an issue of self-awareness.
I think it is basic stupidity. There simply isn't enough brain cells in current government combined to be capable of evaluating objectively current situation they put the country in.

The only way to win election for them is to make sure the narrative is about irrelevant things and not actual issues the country is dealing with. And in past 4 days this is the way it is trending.


----------



## diharv

damian13ster said:


> I don't think it is an issue of self-awareness.
> I think it is basic stupidity. There simply isn't enough brain cells in current government combined to be capable of evaluating objectively current situation they put the country in.
> 
> The only way to win election for them is to make sure the narrative is about irrelevant things and not actual issues the country is dealing with. And in past 4 days this is the way it is trending.


Exactly. The gun control non issue which would change nothing with respect to gun violence is being put up front to deflect attention from the real problem which is the incompetent mishandling of the country's finances.


sags said:


> Elections are a golden opportunity for the opposition to point out all the flaws of the government.
> 
> All the Conservatives have to do is convince the Canadians public the Liberals have done a "terrible job".
> 
> Thus far.....it doesn't appear that they have convinced anyone but their hard core supporters.


The Canadian public does not need any convincing about the "job" the Liberals have done. JT is really the most hated person in Canada right now, and he's earned that title.


----------



## andrewf

Beaver101 said:


> ... imagine, living and working in Canada, (Mississauga, Ontario, Canada) for the past 22+ years still require translation from English to Russian?
> 
> Also, I wonder how female employees are considered at the banks (the Canadian one, like CIBC) these days? The "girls" must be working really hard at home these days.


I think that is why is written english is still kind of poor. My dad is an immigrant but writes well in english. He tells me he thinks in english.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> We wanted to vote on Sep 10 advanced poll , but we still didn’t receive voter cards 🤔 (1st time in 22 years we live here). Can we vote by presenting driver licenses only?!


You don't need the card. Check the website for what identification is required.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I think that is why is written english is still kind of poor. My dad is an immigrant but writes well in english. He tells me he thinks in english.


It all depends . Do I really need good written English skills?! I Canada I worked in IT, I needed written English only to write emails and create test plans. Because here, in IT, majoriry employees are immigrants, I can assure you that many of my managers (includinh C-level) had writing skills worse than me .
But when I immigrated to Israel , there was another story. Just after 2 years , I started to work as investigator in police... Obviously I needed to pass a lot of Hebrew tests, and you MUST have a good writing skills when you investigate suspects and go with your cases to court in front of judge


----------



## ian

I really cannot envisage the O'Toole Conservatives doing a better or a worse job than the Trudeau Liberals. Once the honeymoon is over for a new Government everything reverts to the status quo.

And for those veterans out there....take a long, hard look at O'Toole's record as Minister of Veteran's Affairs. It might give you a good idea of his personal ideology.


----------



## sags

I watched the Premier of Nova Scotia today. That guy is impressive and describes his politics as "progressive" conservative.

He emphasizes the word "progressive", and sounds reasonable on social issues while being an accountant wants to restore balanced spending.

Maybe a future leader there.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> I watched the Premier of Nova Scotia today. That guy is impressive and describes his politics as "progressive" conservative.
> 
> He emphasizes the word "progressive", and sounds reasonable on social issues while being an accountant wants to restore balanced spending.
> 
> Maybe a future leader there.


Doug Ford is also progressive conservative 🤣


----------



## MrMatt

ian said:


> I really cannot envisage the O'Toole Conservatives doing a better or a worse job than the Trudeau Liberals. Once the honeymoon is over for a new Government everything reverts to the status quo.
> 
> And for those veterans out there....take a long, hard look at O'Toole's record as Minister of Veteran's Affairs. It might give you a good idea of his personal ideology.


I don't think O'Toole will have the ethics violations.
He isn't jetsetting with people getting millions or hundreds of millions from the government.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> *I think that is why is written english is still kind of poor.* My dad is an immigrant but writes well in english. He tells me he thinks in english.


 ... obviously since he still requires translation from english to russian and spits it back out as gibberish english, if not in bits and bytes. You know the IT stuff he studied.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> I don't think O'Toole will have the ethics violations.
> He isn't jetsetting with people getting millions or hundreds of millions from the government.


He already faced questions on patronage contracts to friends, and he was a cabinet member in the corrupt Harper government.

That ship has already sailed........and the H.M.C.S. O'Toole is heading for the beach.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> Doug Ford is also progressive conservative 🤣


True.......he got progressively worse.

If he gets any lazier he will look like Jabba the Hut.


----------



## Eder

Yes
Only those that think in English are worthy to post opinions
Gibor although you speak at least 3 languages please let us high IQ English thinkers do the posting


----------



## sags

Hey Eder........curious, when you sail around all over are you on Marine Tracker ?


----------



## Plugging Along

Eclectic21 said:


> Most of the time I can recall voting ... it was voter card and DL. You've reminded me that at times the voter card was forgotten, which made it DL only.
> 
> Quickly checking the Elections Canada web site - the second piece of id such as a utility bill is for when one is using a non-gov't id like a hospital or educational institution id card. Basically places where one's address is less likely to be up to date.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> *PS*
> I'd think the one situation where a utility bill would be needed with a DL is if one moved and still have a DL with the old address on it.


I kind of remember just grabbing what ever bill or statement had my address and name. I am pretty sure I have used credit card statements, investment statements, insurance whatever was there (I am really bad with losing my card) and a DL. I never had an issue.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> Yes
> Only those that think in English are worthy to post opinions
> Gibor although you speak at least 3 languages please let us high IQ English thinkers do the posting


Yeap, just 4 languages 😁. Imho, it’s more important what you are thinking than in which language 🤣.
My wife is executive in major North American bank and ... still thinks in Russian.... what a shame 😂


----------



## sags

Justin Trudeau speaks both official Canadian languages perfectly.

Robert Bowles

Fund Raising Chair for Ontario Provincial Conservatives

_"He speaks perfect French and English, and is well versed in the slang of both languages. He has 2 degrees from Canadian Universities. He had more parliamentry experience than his father, and the last two Conservative Prime Ministers when he was elected Prime Minister. He is elegant, eloquent, erudite and represents Canada with class and dignity. He also can lay claim to Eastern and Western Canadian Heritage. He made some rookie mistakes during his first term, and he was punished by our electorate with only being given a minority government. This means he has to play nice with the other kids in The House of Commons. *All in all, we are lucky to have him." *_

Yes......we are very lucky to have Justin Trudeau as our PM.


----------



## Synergy

diharv said:


> Exactly. The gun control non issue which would change nothing with respect to gun violence is being put up front to deflect attention from the real problem which is the incompetent mishandling of the country's finances.
> 
> The Canadian public does not need any convincing about the "job" the Liberals have done. JT is really the most hated person in Canada right now, and he's earned that title.


Not to mention that the liberals lost the popular vote last time around. More people voted conservative.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Justin Trudeau speaks both official Canadian languages perfectly.
> 
> Robert Bowles
> 
> Fund Raising Chair for Ontario Provincial Conservatives
> 
> _"He speaks perfect French and English, and is well versed in the slang of both languages. He has 2 degrees from Canadian Universities. He had more parliamentry experience than his father, and the last two Conservative Prime Ministers when he was elected Prime Minister. He is elegant, eloquent, erudite and represents Canada with class and dignity. He also can lay claim to Eastern and Western Canadian Heritage. He made some rookie mistakes during his first term, and he was punished by our electorate with only being given a minority government. This means he has to play nice with the other kids in The House of Commons. *All in all, we are lucky to have him." *_
> 
> Yes......we are very lucky to have Justin Trudeau as our PM.


We also were lucky to have Lenin, Stalin, Brezhnev etc as per official propaganda 🤣😂
We are unlucky that Justin’s mama didn’t do abortion 🤣


----------



## sags

Anyone paying attention to the Quebec debate tonight must be asking themselves........did O'Toole just blow up their chances ?

Having the PBO release the details of his platform just before the debate was a really bad idea, considering what it contains.

Cancelling the fully funded and negotiated child care program and giving some of the money to Alberta, Saskatchewan and wealthy corporations ?

Even worse, the debate is in Quebec and low income folks there don't pay child care expenses, so a tax credit is useless to them.

Social media is lighting up with liberals laughing and conservatives wondering who came up with these ideas.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservatives-platform-costs-otoole-1.6168097


----------



## james4beach

How is Peter O'Toole doing? I'm not watching ... still at work.


----------



## sags

Not so good. The release of the PBO gave the opposition a lot of cannon balls and O'Toole had to bob and weave all the incoming.


----------



## damian13ster

60bln increase in health care transfers. nice


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> 60bln increase in health care transfers. nice


_The Conservatives say that adjustment to the Canada Health Transfer would inject $60 billion into health care over the next 10 years.

The PBO's costing, however, says that boost in the health transfer would amount only to $3.6 billion in new spending between now and 2025-26.

According to the PBO, 2021-22 would see no health care funding increase under the Conservatives' plan, but the extra funding in 2022-23 would amount to $304 million before rising to $329 million the following year, $901 million in 2024-25 and $2 billion in 2025-26.

Unlike the Liberals, who are promising to allocate funds specifically for mental health under a proposed new Mental Health Transfer, the Conservatives say they would encourage the provinces to fund improved mental health services using the extra money in the Canada Health Transfer._


----------



## damian13ster

Yeah. Giving provinces a choice on what is best for their people is so terrible 😅
There is a bit of a difference between GTA and Yukon if you haven't noticed. They should be allowed to implement solutions that best suit their people.
Not have a tyrant in Ottawa withhold healthcare funds during pandemic for political gain.

Blanchet during debate endorsed O'Toole's approach to health care. Significant development, especially since Conservatives are second choice for most BQ voters


----------



## james4beach

Sad that the Conservatives are just going to keep existing government spending, and then *add* some more spending on top. Fiscal conservatism and restraint was pretty much the only appeal of this party, and they aren't even going to do that.

Omg... the Quebec related open debate near the end was really something. When O'Toole weighed in with that silly grin, I practically laughed out loud. What planet is this guy on, he has absolutely no standing in Quebec.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> How is Peter O'Toole doing? I'm not watching ... still at work.


Who is Peter O'Toole?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Sad that the Conservatives are just going to keep existing government spending, and then *add* some more spending on top. Fiscal conservatism and restraint was pretty much the only appeal of this party, and they aren't even going to do that.
> 
> Omg... the Quebec related open debate near the end was really something. When O'Toole weighed in with that silly grin, I practically laughed out loud. What planet is this guy on, he has absolutely no standing in Quebec.


Yes, it is sad that all the main parties are planning to spend like idiots.

But that's part of the plan, the O'Toole is running on a platform of "Like the Liberals, but with me in charge". Which honestly is a good strategy, get rid of the moronic and unethical Trudeau, replace him with someone competent, that's an improvement.

Also the CPC is only proposing uunaffordable spending increases, not the truly insane spending increases that the Liberals are, and who knows what the NDP is thinking.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Who is Peter O'Toole?


 ... a British actor. Definitely, much-much better looking than Erin (the guy, not the gal).


----------



## fstamand

damian13ster said:


> Blanchet during debate endorsed O'Toole's approach to health care. Significant development, especially since Conservatives are second choice for most BQ voters


nonsense. BQ is a left wing party. Most Bloc voters use it to "bloc" conservatives.


----------



## ian

There is a huge difference in how people envisage private health care.

Some view it as health solutions delivered by the private sector under the umbrella of the health system, ie no extra billings. No difference to the patient. More efficient, less cost to our health care system. At the bottom of the scale having flu shots, covid shots delivered by a pharmacist would be an example of this. 

Others view it as fee for service health care.

Quebec has done some of the former....very successfully. They have encouraged groups of doctors to set up 24hr. clinics often very close to hospital emerg sites. Much less expensive to the Mecdicare system to have some treated there rather than in a hospital emerg setting. In some cases patients with low priority could find themselves sitting for hours waiting their turn in emerg. The approach eliminates that potential wait. 

Union types do not like the former either. It takes lessens membership in their unions...less income to the union.


----------



## newfoundlander61

I haven't any mention of increasing the amount you could put into a TFSA.


----------



## MrMatt

ian said:


> There is a huge difference in how people envisage private health care.
> 
> Some view it as health solutions delivered by the private sector under the umbrella of the health system, ie no extra billings. No difference to the patient. More efficient, less cost to our health care system. At the bottom of the scale having flu shots, covid shots delivered by a pharmacist would be an example of this.
> 
> Others view it as fee for service health care.
> 
> Quebec has done some of the former....very successfully. They have encouraged groups of doctors to set up 24hr. clinics often very close to hospital emerg sites. Much less expensive to the Mecdicare system to have some treated there rather than in a hospital emerg setting. In some cases patients with low priority could find themselves sitting for hours waiting their turn in emerg. The approach eliminates that potential wait.
> 
> Union types do not like the former either. It takes lessens membership in their unions...less income to the union.


The vast majority of health care in Canada is private.
For many people they spend significant on private care, or private health insurance already.

The big lie is that it's all some massive government run system, it isn't.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Yeah. Giving provinces a choice on what is best for their people is so terrible 😅
> There is a bit of a difference between GTA and Yukon if you haven't noticed. They should be allowed to implement solutions that best suit their people.
> Not have a tyrant in Ottawa withhold healthcare funds during pandemic for political gain.
> 
> Blanchet during debate endorsed O'Toole's approach to health care. Significant development, especially since Conservatives are second choice for most BQ voters


Of course, because traditionally Conservative meant respect for conservative principles, one of which is the separation of powers between Provinces and the Feds. That's something Authoritarians hate.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I don't think O'Toole will have the ethics violations.
> He isn't jetsetting with people getting millions or hundreds of millions from the government.


I'm quite doubtful. Being in government is messy business, and I don't think we've had a government that didn't have concerns raised about ethics.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Yes
> Only those that think in English are worthy to post opinions
> Gibor although you speak at least 3 languages please let us high IQ English thinkers do the posting


No one said he couldn't post. He is mostly coherent though sometimes writes things confusingly. I remember a now-gone poster that used to write walls of text in sentence fragments punctuated with ellipses. I just started skipping those posts!


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> 60bln increase in health care transfers. nice


All backloaded to a hypothetical third conservative government. It's vaporware.


----------



## andrewf

Personally, I think the story of this campaign will be the PPC. They may actually get some seats, and they are shaking up politics. They are polling strongly among younger voters. Not sure if that is a transient product of our times (post-Trump bimbo eruption and backlash to COVID controls/vaccination) or a lasting dynamic. Could be damaging to the CPC as it will split the right wing tent.


----------



## sags

The reality is though...........all the parties pledge to spend billions on this and billions on that, and often the money never gets out the door.

It is like........we pledge to spend $10 billion to clean up rivers, and nobody ever cleans up rivers.

But it sounds good because everyone wants cleaner rivers.


----------



## sags

Maybe somebody can answer this for me, because I can't figure it out.

Time after time the subject of clean drinking water comes up for the same reserves or communities.

What is so hard about drilling for water ? When the government is questioned on it, the standard answer is......_we are working on it._

Hire some companies and give them contracts to build it. If it isn't possible....move the community to where there is water.


----------



## afulldeck

newfoundlander61 said:


> I haven't any mention of increasing the amount you could put into a TFSA.


Oh, but there is the 40 for under 40 plan from the Liberals. Stupid idea. Ageist. Blubble increasing. And how is this different than the TFSA? Why the age restriction? 

Just don't understand why anyone will vote for this hypocrite.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Personally, I think the story of this campaign will be the PPC. They may actually get some seats, and they are shaking up politics. They are polling strongly among younger voters. Not sure if that is a transient product of our times (post-Trump bimbo eruption and backlash to COVID controls/vaccination) or a lasting dynamic. Could be damaging to the CPC as it will split the right wing tent.


Or the only party actually supporting human rights, and liberal values.

I don't think they're a serious party yet, but they're getting there.

Yes it is a product of our times, our times being that all 3 major political parties have shifted to the left, far left, and OMG left.
2 of the parties have pretty much abandoned human rights.

yeah we live in interesting times.


----------



## afulldeck

sags said:


> Maybe somebody can answer this for me, because I can't figure it out.
> 
> Time after time the subject of clean drinking water comes up for the same reserves or communities.
> 
> What is so hard about drilling for water ? When the government is questioned on it, the standard answer is......_we are working on it._
> 
> Hire some companies and give them contracts to build it. If it isn't possible....move the community to where there is water.


Historically, the Indigenous communities were provided safe drinking water through GoC program development. Water solutions are usually a provincial or local responsibility. But in creating the original water supply solution, the communities have been barred from funding and managing their own water treatment systems. They rotted in place since maintenance was not done. Since the GoC bears responsibility for the solution they are responsible for fixing problems- especially since the Indigenous communities are not allow to fix it. Its a similar problem with respects to health card. Getting the GoC to do the right thing is hard.


----------



## MrMatt

afulldeck said:


> Historically, the Indigenous communities were provided safe drinking water through GoC program development. Water solutions are usually a provincial or local responsibility. But in creating the original water supply solution, the communities have been barred from funding and managing their own water treatment systems. They rotted in place since maintenance was not done. Since the GoC bears responsibility for the solution they are responsible for fixing problems- especially since the Indigenous communities are not allow to fix it. Its a similar problem with respects to health card. Getting the GoC to do the right thing is hard.


Historically each community was responsible for their own drinking water.
Drinking water is constitutionally a Provincial responsibility, which is why it is regulated provincially.

The GoC has no responsibility for municipal infrastructure under Provincial jurisdiction.
If a community wants water treatment, they should tax and levy their population accordingly to pay for it.
I have always paid for my water system, and even special levies for construction.

I know people on well water, water delivery or septic, they all pay for theirs.

What I want to know is why some communities expect that the Federal government is going to come in and provide a service that every other Canadian has to pay for. 
Time for someone to take responsibility for their own basic needs.


----------



## sags

It might be a Provincial responsibility, but there is nothing to stop the federal government from giving the communities the money to fix the problem.

After they have a system set up, they can charge the residents a fee to maintain it. 

Of course, remote indigenous folks don't earn a lot of money so that is a factor.

Clean water should be a right in Canada, not a privilege for those who can afford to pay for it.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> I'm quite doubtful. Being in government is messy business, and I don't think we've had a government that didn't have concerns raised about ethics.


No, but I don't recall such blatant conflict of interests with a sitting prime minister.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> It might be a Provincial responsibility, but there is nothing to stop the federal government from giving the communities the money to fix the problem.
> 
> After they have a system set up, they can charge the residents a fee to maintain it.
> 
> Of course, remote indigenous folks don't earn a lot of money so that is a factor.
> 
> Clean water should be a right in Canada, not a privilege for those who can afford to pay for it.


I'd love to live in a remote area, but it doesn't have the employment opportunities, and level of services I want, so I don't live there.
If they want to make more money, maybe they can't live in the middle of nowhere.

It's not fair to force us to subsidize their lifestyle choice, they can live their if they want, but I shouldn't have to pay for it.


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> Who is Peter O'Toole?


Maybe Erin’s son?!


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Personally, I think the story of this campaign will be the PPC. They may actually get some seats, and they are shaking up politics. They are polling strongly among younger voters. Not sure if that is a transient product of our times (post-Trump bimbo eruption and backlash to COVID controls/vaccination) or a lasting dynamic. Could be damaging to the CPC as it will split the right wing tent.


I also see it... Leftist youngsters vote NDP, right ones - PPC. The biggest PPC issue is current elections system, with PR list system, they would get easily 15-20 seats. With PR list system, we would strongly consider PPC


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> I also see it... Leftist youngsters vote NDP, right ones - PPC. The biggest PPC issue is current elections system, with PR list system, they would get easily 15-20 seats. With PR list system, we would strongly consider PPC


15-20 seats doing whatever Max says.

Go ranked ballot, PPC support would have fewer seats, but it would put politicians on notice that they've gone wayyy too far left.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> I'd love to live in a remote area, but it doesn't have the employment opportunities, and level of services I want, so I don't live there.
> If they want to make more money, maybe they can't live in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> It's not fair to force us to subsidize their lifestyle choice, they can live their if they want, but I shouldn't have to pay for it.


Okay,......government can use your tax dollars to pay for something else.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Okay,......government can use your tax dollars to pay for something else.


Or simply stop taking so much money.
They take half my paycheck as it is, could you imagine if people were actually permitted the fruits of their own labour?


----------



## fstamand

MrMatt said:


> No, but I don't recall such blatant conflict of interests with a sitting prime minister.


Ahem, Harper and Idle no more.


----------



## damian13ster

fstamand said:


> nonsense. BQ is a left wing party. Most Bloc voters use it to "bloc" conservatives.


I have no personal opinion on it.
Just stating what the polls show


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> I'm quite doubtful. Being in government is messy business, and I don't think we've had a government that didn't have concerns raised about ethics.


Yet there was only one Prime Minister in history of Canada that has ethic violation (actually, multiple ones) - Justin Trudeau


----------



## gibor365

MrMatt said:


> 15-20 seats doing whatever Max says.
> 
> Go ranked ballot, PPC support would have fewer seats, but it would put politicians on notice that they've gone wayyy too far left.


This election I have only one priority- to get rid of Trudeau. Voting Conservatives is the only way to achieve it


----------



## kcowan

Retiredguy said:


> Fake news Eder. Those are wood chips...lol.
> .https://thetyee.ca/News/2019/02/01/Coal-Transfer-Facility-Cancelled/







__





Westshore Terminals Ltd.






www.westshore.com


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> This election I have only one priority- to get rid of Trudeau. Voting Conservatives is the only way to achieve it


The barbarians are at the gates, trying to bring down our great leader, but we will live long and prosper.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Yet there was only one Prime Minister in history of Canada that has ethic violation (actually, multiple ones) - Justin Trudeau


Wrong.......PC Mulroney had many serious ethics violations. Trudeau has been cleared of any wrongdoing.





__





PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions


Digital newsstand featuring 7000+ of the world’s most popular newspapers & magazines. Enjoy unlimited reading on up to 5 devices with 7-day free trial.




www.pressreader.com


----------



## Retiredguy

kcowan said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Westshore Terminals Ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.westshore.com


Westshore (Jim Pattison) recently signed a long term deal (30 years plus options) to make major alterations to the facility and start shipping Potash at terminal #2. Pattison indicated that they will of course continue to honor their existing coal contracts.

Potash Handling Contract to Proceed (newswire.ca)


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Wrong.......PC Mulroney had many serious ethics violations. Trudeau has been cleared of any wrongdoing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions
> 
> 
> Digital newsstand featuring 7000+ of the world’s most popular newspapers & magazines. Enjoy unlimited reading on up to 5 devices with 7-day free trial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pressreader.com


I am not the one who is wrong here:




__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca





"
*Twice already, Canada's conflict of interest and ethics commissioner, has found the prime minister violated ethics rules. The first occasion was in 2017, when former commissioner Mary Dawson ruled on Trudeau and his family accepting a vacation on the Aga Khan's private island in the Bahamas.

The second occasion was just last year, when the current commissioner, Mario Dion, found that Trudeau had tried to influence then-justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould to overrule a decision not to grant a deferred prosecution agreement to SNC-Lavalin.*
"

*"The Trudeau case stands out as the only one in which a sitting prime minister was found to have violated a federal statute. "*

And of course who can forget blackface Trudeau, but that wasn't corruption - that was racism.

But not like you care about ethics anyway


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> The barbarians are at the gates, trying to bring down our great leader, but we will live long and prosper.


Many dictators though like this 😁
Heil Justin?! No pasaran!!!


----------



## sags

I suspect a lack of knowledge of Canadian history is why some posters struggle to understand why the Liberals are considered Canada's natural governing party.

They don't understand that Canadians consider social responsibility as a vital component of the democracy they cherish.


----------



## damian13ster

Well, we have a tyrant who oversteps his jurisdiction, has been caught for corruption, is a racist, and has disregard for anything other than his own profit.
Canadians don't agree with the election being called, but who cares about what Canadians think, right - our tyrant thought he will benefit so he called the election.

Current liberal party doesn't promote social responsibility. They only have interest of politicians in charge in their mind and are screwing over everyone else.
Giving my money away to Aga Khan so that Trudeau can have luxury vacations on private islands. Screw that









Quebec premier lambastes Trudeau, says O’Toole would be easier to work with | Globalnews.ca


Quebec Premier François Legault was riled up after Wednesday night's French language debate. He was particularly critical of Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau.




globalnews.ca












Protests not influencing polls, but Canadians growing frustrated with pandemic election - National | Globalnews.ca


An Ipsos poll reveals a generational divide amongst how voters perceive the election call -- the older the voter, the more likely they are against the idea of a pandemic election.




globalnews.ca


----------



## sags

You just see it that way, through the lens of your past history.........not ours.

You fail to recognize that 70% of Canadians support progressive policies and political parties, while the remaining 30% are trying to change that reality.

The issues you and others bring up were already litigated in the 2019 election and Trudeau was still elected.

Blackface, Aga Khan, JWR, ............are old news.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> why the Liberals are considered Canada's natural governing party.


Since Confederation in 1867 the Conservatives have been in power 18 times and the Liberals 27 times. Basically the Liberals give away more money and this attracts the votes of the uninitiated. Once the Liberals have been in power long enough to bring the country to near ruin, people pay attention and vote the sensible and fiscally responsible Conservatives back into power. The subsequent unenviable task of righting the ship that the Liberals have destroyed allows a very limited time in power for the Conservatives, and then the cycle repeats itself.

Yeah I guess the Liberals are the “The Natural Governing Party”.

ltr


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> You just see it that way, through the lens of your past history.........not ours.
> 
> You fail to recognize that 70% of Canadians support progressive policies and political parties, while the remaining 30% are trying to change that reality.
> 
> The issues you and others bring up were already litigated in the 2019 election and Trudeau was still elected.
> 
> Blackface, Aga Khan, JWR, ............are old news.


No they aren't.
They show who Trudeau is. And he proves that with every single action he takes.
He is a corrupt racist. That hasn't changed either. All of his actions are spread out over the years. You can't blame it on youth. It is just pure stupidity, ignorance, and malice.
If not being fine with corrupt racist leader is misunderstanding Canadian history then yes - you are right, I do not understand it.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I suspect a lack of knowledge of Canadian history is why some posters struggle to understand why the Liberals are considered Canada's natural governing party.
> 
> They don't understand that Canadians consider social responsibility as a vital component of the democracy they cherish.


Actually that's why the Liberals are unacceptable leaders now.
They support an open racist, who has committed multiple ethics violations, while in office. That should make him unelectable.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> No, but I don't recall such blatant conflict of interests with a sitting prime minister.


Even Chretien with his sponsorship scandal, or Mulroney with his envelopes of Airbus cash from Karlheinz Schreiber?


----------



## andrewf

damian13ster said:


> Yet there was only one Prime Minister in history of Canada that has ethic violation (actually, multiple ones) - Justin Trudeau


So Mulroney's Airbus bribe was 100% kosher in your books?


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Even Chretien with his sponsorship scandal, or Mulroney with his envelopes of Airbus cash from Karlheinz Schreiber?


Well Chretien was a Liberal, and I don't think Mulroney got his envelopes of cash while he was PM.

But yeah, there is a problem, I hope the next government gives the ethics commission some real power.
Honestly I think Trudeau should be removed from office for his ethics violations.

Incompetence, well that's for the MP's to decide, and clearly a partisan issue.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> So Mulroney's Airbus bribe was 100% kosher in your books?


I don't write the books.
Nor did I ever claim that all politicians are ethical.

I stated Trudeau is only Prime Minister in history to have ethics violation - only one to break federal statute.
It is not a matter of opinion - it is a fact.


----------



## ian

Mulroney certainly did not take a bride. He was paid for 'consulting'. In cash, in a US hotel room. As part of the normal course of business according to him.

And like an honest citizen he declared the income. Eventually.

He 'forgot' about it but the AIrbus inquiry a few years later jogged his memory....and placed the wheels in motion at CRA.

He amended his past tax return within 48 hours in order to be honest. OR was it to avoid any audit and fine from CRA?

We had a former Premier in BC that did something similar. He did not have to go stateside to pick up the briefcase of cash. He simply had to drive or be driven to the Westin Bayshore Hotel to pick it up his 'consulting' fee.

In both instances....no one bothered with the usual invoice for service and record of payment. Not even a PO.


----------



## damian13ster

A summary of Trudeau's monologue in debate by the person asking a question:
'I don't think anyone questions the amount of money you spent, people question the results of the spending'
Add racism and corruption, and you have a perfect summary of the current PM


----------



## sags

A lot of Canadians would disagree that government support for them doesn't create good results.


----------



## james4beach

With such weak environmental policy, I don't see any how any young person would vote for the Conservatives.

No question that some rich old people will vote Conservative though.


----------



## damian13ster

We will agree to disagree here.
Majority of Canadians want to decrease their carbon footprint.
Introducing a system where they get to track their footprint, gamifying the entire experience could prove to be an absolutely brilliant move.
This is strategy used by marketers everywhere, by social apps, by video gaming companies gambling, etc.
It is effective. Why not use it for good? Why not use it to allow people to challenge themselves, to lower their carbon footprint, to see a difference they are making in real time?
From sociological viewpoint it is a brilliant tactic.


----------



## kcowan

It is also sad when supposedly smart people vote for more of the same when it is not working!


----------



## MrMatt

kcowan said:


> It is also sad when supposedly smart people vote for more of the same when it is not working!


Well our options this time are
More of the same
even more of the same
even more than that.


----------



## afulldeck

james4beach said:


> With such weak environmental policy, I don't see any how any young person would vote for the Conservatives.
> 
> No question that some rich old people will vote Conservative though.


Well I know quite a few of the younger generation who would disagree with you. The problem with the Liberal's (indeed all parties to various degrees) environmental policy currently, is that increasing the cost of energy for the individual doesn't solve the overall broader environmental problem. All it does is increase the expenses for the individual's of bottom line when trying to keep warm or cool or travelling to and from work. This isn't a workable solution. 

Canadians need solutions that are cheaper and better that meet "current" living needs of those over the 42nd parallel. If they are cheaper and better, Canadians would flock to them faster than a cheetah taking down a zebra, since current costs are already negatively affecting their incomes.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> With such weak environmental policy, I don't see any how any young person would vote for the Conservatives.
> 
> No question that some rich old people will vote Conservative though.


The Liberal "environmental policy" is big promises not kept.

I think that Youtubers have planted more trees that Trudeau.


----------



## sags

The Conservative climate change policy doesn't make any sense from either an environmental or economic viewpoint.

The current price of carbon is $40 per tonne and the Conservatives will lower it to $20 a tonne.

The Liberals will incrementally raise the price of carbon from $40 per tonne to $170 per tonne.

The Conservatives will incrementally raise the price from $20 per tonne to $50 per tonne.

It is pretty straightforward the Conservatives policy is to lower the cost for companies that pollute, and cut the carbon refund to individuals by 50%.

Then it get wonky.

The Liberals give the money back to Canadians on their tax returns once a year.

The Conservatives will have a "private consortium of companies" administer a system that keeps track of individual spending on fuel and natural gas.

It would be a rewards card that could track fuel spending, but how would they track spending on home heat or propane ?

Rather than pay the cash back to Canadians, the companies would set up some kind of reward program to redeem green energy merchandise.

The Conservatives talk of being able to buy a bicycle, or furnace or even a new e-car.

That simply isn't possible after the carbon refund is cut by 50% and then further reduced by the cost of the administration of the program by private companies plus the cost of the merchandise.

It reminds of Petro-Points, but you can't redeem the points for a car wash, snow brush, or a bottle of Coke in the store.

Basically you would gather useless points that will never be enough to buy anything, except maybe an occasional bus pass.

This proposed policy only proves that Conservatives don't take climate change seriously and it will cost them a lot of votes.


----------



## damian13ster

I think you underestimate just how expensive the cost already are.
Of course, it hits the working poor the most - but screwing them is literally entire Liberal platform.
47% of my latest home heating bill was Carbon tax  
The charges add up, and add up quickly. You will be able to save that money and use it to actually improve your results rathen than simply have it be another cost that working poor can't afford that.
The corrupt racist we have in office is extremely expensive for working poor. We can't afford to support his helicopter rides, billionaire friends getting 50mln dollars of my taxes for giving Trudeau private island vacation, and we can't afford to get taxed to the death so he can give money to friends from WE to funnel to his family, while increasing carbon emissions.

Let's finally be allowed to invest our money in reducing our carbon footprint. 
Let's finally make reducing carbon footprint 'cool'. We can get young people excited about it, and involved.
The emissions are decreased on consumer level. Decrease the demand from O&G - you will decrease supply. This is the only way. Blocking pipelines and new development isn't effective at all.
It actually increases emissions, as the last 6 years after Trudeau have proven - he increased emissions.


----------



## sags

Handing all that taxpayer money to a "consortium of companies" in exchange for some chintzy prizes, sounds a lot like the WE charity idea.......without the charity part. Would the companies feel obliged to "donate" to the Conservatives party, as the cost of doing business ? This looks like a future patronage scandal in the making. I think Canadians are smarter than that, and can see how ridiculous this whole policy is.


----------



## sags

The piddly amount that would be given to Canadians in points, while encouraging major polluters to keep on polluting......is laughable climate change policy.

The public could buy a pair of mittens to turn down their home heat in the winter, while the executives of the companies are buying yachts with our money.

This is one incredibly stupid idea.


----------



## damian13ster

You have absolutely no clue what would be the cost of the program. You are literally talking out of your ***.
Basically every single program or task ever administered was much cheaper and much more efficient if it was administered by private sector rather than government.
You really think it would be very hard for Visa/Mastercard to be able to break out your spending by categories and give chargeback based on that?
FFS, my credit card already does it and there is zero yearly fee on it. 

Don't know what world you live in, but we are in 21st century now. These things are very easy, very cheap, and very efficient to implement


----------



## sags

Last night's English debate was a dumpster fire. Anyone who watched the whole thing deserves a medal and a piece of quality cheesecake.

The winner by a mile was Green Leader Annamie Paul, but of course she has no policies to defend and nobody attacked her.

Blanchet looked like he could care less, and Trudeau, O'Toole, and Singh stumbled through it, in large part due to a poor format that handcuffed moderators.

None of the leaders answered direct questions and I doubt any of them gained any new supporters.


----------



## sags

Do the math on the Conservatives climate change policy.

Say I got back $150 last year from the climate refund. Under the Conservatives they would cut that to $75 immediately.

From the remaining $75 they would have to pay for the prizes, the flashy brochures, the advertising, and the administration fees to the companies.

Of course people wouldn't have to pay a fee, because there would be nothing left to pay it.

Personally, I would rather not get anything back from the government. No climate refund at all.

I would rather the money went into a fund to pay for future damage from climate change.

It is going to cost trillions of dollars that government doesn't have, to rebuild, protect, and move people from high risk areas.

The insurance companies are already moving out of high risk areas or raising premiums that people can't pay.

Climate change damage has a high price, as in forest fires all over, historic level hurricanes in the US, massive droughts, historic flooding in New England."

We best start saving up cash now..........and a lot of it.


----------



## damian13ster

Blanchet was great. Simple message and delivered efficiently - tyranny from Ottawa needs to stop, jurisdictions need to be respected, and provinces need to be able to self-govern. 
Whether that will be effective in Quebec? No clue. But I do know what he stands for and can make informed decision.
Paul didn't really do much. She has no policy ideas, etc. Played race and gender card and called out Trudeau on his hypocrisy. She was a good sidekick, but debate wouldn't really lose much without her on it, simply because Greens are now 6th party in Canada with about 2% support - largely irrelevant.

Singh did what Singh does - never actually answered any questions.
Trudeau did what he does - threw temper tantrums, interrupted everyone, ignored the moderator, and lied.
O'Toole did what he does - stuck to his message largely ignoring the questions.

Moderator did a great job even though they had tough night. About 40min in I really though she will drop the F bomb and tell Trudeau to shut up when he rambled on for 3 extra minutes for topic completely unrelated to the question. Luckily she restrained herself but was quite comical. Overall she did a great job in terrible environment. They need mute button


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Do the math on the Conservatives climate change policy.
> 
> Say I got back $150 last year from the climate refund. Under the Conservatives they would cut that to $75 immediately.
> 
> From the remaining $75 they would have to pay for the prizes, the flashy brochures, the advertising, and the administration fees to the companies.
> 
> Of course people wouldn't have to pay a fee, because there would be nothing left to pay if.


Your math is made with imaginary numbers and assumptions contorted in nothing more but your biases. That isn't math. That's blabbering


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Your math is made with imaginary numbers and assumptions contorted in nothing more but your biases. That isn't math. That's blabbering


Product of the Ontario Education system.
Where apparently some of us get the legislated curriculum, and others just graduate without learning anything.


----------



## sags

You can't argue the math because the Conservatives don't provide it.

It is just another pie in the sky unfunded dumb idea.......no doubt put off until O'Toole's fourth term in office.

Like O'Toole's less than impressive healthcare spending..........$60 billion over 10 years but only $3 billion over the first 5 years and the remaining $55 billion to be paid out in O"Toole's second or third term in office..........sure, like we haven't heard that BS before.

The latest polls show the Liberals and Conservatives in tie with the Liberals trending up and projected to have the most seats.

For the Conservatives........it was fun while it lasted.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> You can't argue the math because the Conservatives don't provide it.
> 
> It is just another pie in the sky unfunded dumb idea.......no doubt put off until O'Toole's fourth term in office.
> 
> Like O'Toole's less than impressive healthcare spending..........$60 billion over 10 years but only $3 billion over the first 5 years and the remaing $55 billion to be paid in O"Toole's second or third term in office.


The federal government shouldn't be paying for provincial responsibilities.

Of course, since there are no conservatives running in this election, the point is moot.


----------



## sags

I hate to be the bearer of bad news......but you won't be buying a Tesla with your carbon points.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> You can't argue the math because the Conservatives don't provide it.
> 
> It is just another pie in the sky unfunded dumb idea.......no doubt put off until O'Toole's fourth term in office.
> 
> Like O'Toole's less than impressive healthcare spending..........$60 billion over 10 years but only $3 billion over the first 5 years and the remaining $55 billion to be paid out in O"Toole's second or third term in office..........sure, like we haven't heard that BS before.
> 
> The latest polls show the Liberals and Conservatives in tie with the Liberals trending up and projected to have the most seats.
> 
> For the Conservatives........it was fun while it lasted.


Then why are you trying to argue the math? You are the one who did this. I am discussing the concept

So increase of 3billion in first 5 years and higher in next 5 is terrible.
But increase in emissions in first 5 years but a promise to decrease by 45% in next 10 is a great policy?


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> The federal government shouldn't be paying for provincial responsibilities.
> 
> Of course, since there are no conservatives running in this election, the point is moot.


So you agree that Ottawa should not send an extra $6 Billion to Alberta........like O'Toole has pledged.

I agree that the Federal government eliminate all federal transfer payments and let the Provinces levy their own taxes.

Then people can choose where they live in Canada based on the level of taxation versus the level of services.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> So you agree that Ottawa should not send an extra $6 Billion to Alberta........like O'Toole has pledged.


Not sure what promise you're talking about, and it depends why, but in general no, the Federal government shouldn't be controlling items of Provincial jurisdiction.

Now if it is a Federal responsibility, they should just do it cooperating with the local government.

Really, almost all my policy positions can generally be obtained from the following, in this order.
1. The definition of liberalism.
2. Basic Human rights.
3. The Canadian Constitution.


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> Not sure what promise you're talking about, and it depends why, but in general no, the Federal government shouldn't be controlling items of Provincial jurisdiction.







__





The Division of Powers | Our Country, Our Parliament






lop.parl.ca


----------



## sags

The Conservatives propose an extra $10 per year per person in health care spending for the next 5 years.

That's great.......everyone can get an extra box of these. Use them wisely.......they have to last a year.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> The Conservatives propose an extra $10 per year per person in health care spending.
> 
> That's great.......everyone can get an extra box of bandages.


You really need to stop the lies. What is the point of making stuff up just to post it on online forum?


----------



## sags

Do the math.......$300 million divided by 36 million people.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Do the math.......$300 million divided by 36 million people.


Yeah, where did you get 300million from?
The policy is simple. Move from minimum 3% yearly increase in health transfers to minimum 6% yearly increase.
Why make stuff up and use imaginary numbers?


----------



## sags

*Not sure what promise you're talking about,*_ and it depends why, but in general no, the Federal government shouldn't be controlling items of Provincial jurisdiction._

Maybe you should look it up. The Conservatives want to eliminate the fully funded and negotiated $10 per day child care program and divvy up the $27 billion.

They want to send $6 billion of the money to Alberta and Saskatchewan in "extra" transfer payments to help out the oil industry.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> *Not sure what promise you're talking about,* and it depends why, but in general no, the Federal government shouldn't be controlling items of Provincial jurisdiction.
> 
> Maybe you should look it up. The Conservatives want to eliminate the fully funded and negotiated $10 per day child care program and divvy up the $27 billion.
> 
> They want to send $6 billion of the money to Alberta and Saskatchewan in "extra" transfer payments to help out the oil industry.


I can't look up what's in your head. That's why I asked.

The federal government should not be running a daycare program, that's not their job.

They shouldn't be transferring money to natural resource development, that's not their job.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, where did you get 300million from?
> The policy is simple. Move from minimum 3% yearly increase in health transfers to minimum 6% yearly increase.
> Why make stuff up and use imaginary numbers?


The PBO report provided the information.

$3.6 billion over 5 years, with $0 this year and $300 million next year. The rest of the $60 billion....will likely never be paid.

The only way the Conservatives can win is a minority government and it won't last more than a year or so at most.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Do the math.......$300 million divided by 36 million people.


How about $0 from the fed, and they stop trying to do things that aren't their job?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The PBO report provided the information.


Of course the PBO provided different numbers... but don't let facts get in the way.


----------



## damian13ster

MrMatt said:


> Of course the PBO provided different numbers... but don't let facts get in the way.


You have to give him that - he has an imagination of a child! Kudos for that.
Imaginary worlds are usually more fun than reality so good for him


----------



## sags

Part of the Conservative climate change plan is to build more oil pipelines.

That is one of his disputes with Quebec who told him to take a hike. He wants to punish Quebec for being in favor of clean energy.


----------



## diharv

Good! If they are going to stand in the way, then they should put their outstretched hands back in their pockets. Like it or not, oil ain't going anywhere for hundreds of years as long as people want to fly and package and make everything out of plastic.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Part of the Conservative climate change plan is to build more oil pipelines.
> 
> That is one of his disputes with Quebec who told him to take a hike. He wants to punish Quebec for being in favor of clean energy.


Because pipelines pollute less than driving trucks.
Seems reasonable to me.

What's the Liberal plan? Keep using trucks, which pollute more. That seems silly when there is a cleaner option.


----------



## sags

The long term plan is to leave the oil in the ground.

In the interim, we will use the oil to pay for transitioning to green energy. We already have enough oil production and pipelines to do that.

Why spend billions on a dying industry ? You want taxpayers to buy a whale oil company ?

In my lifetime not much will change. In my son's lifetime fossil fuels will be greatly reduced and replaced by green energy.

In my grandson's lifetime fossil fuels will be relegated to the past.

At least we should hope so, otherwise our grandkids don't have a future.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Part of the Conservative climate change plan is to build more oil pipelines.
> 
> That is one of his disputes with Quebec who told him to take a hike. He wants to punish Quebec for being in favor of clean energy.


Building pipeline is actually a way to decrease emissions.
It is absolute no brainer if one looks at it objectively and not through politics.

Building pipeline doesn't increase production. It simply means that transport of produced goods is cheaper, safer, more efficient, and has much lower emission.
Transport by rail is less environmentally friendly and much more dangerous. Quebec should know that best considering what happened.

Also, at least in Alberta there are facilities being built currently to produce hydrogen to help transformation into green energy. They are being built in same location as refineries, etc. How do you think mass amounts of hydrogen will be transported?
In containers or bottles? No - it will be done through pipelines. Repurposing a pipeline from oil or natural gas to hydrogen is relatively simple. Pipelines will have to be built anyway.


----------



## sags

We could build pipelines to ship water to California, and it would be cheaper than trucking it there. That doesn't mean it is a good idea.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The long term plan is to leave the oil in the ground.


Yes



> Why spend billions on a dying industry ?


To reduce the environmental impact.



> In my lifetime not much will change. In my son's lifetime fossil fuels will be greatly reduced and replaced by green energy.
> 
> In my grandson's lifetime fossil fuels will be relegated to the past.
> 
> At least we should hope so, otherwise our grandkids don't have a future.


So you're proposal is to keep polluting in your lifetime, rather than cutting emissions now?
That seems kind of selfish.


----------



## ian

Do people out there really believe all the nonsense, half truths, falsehoods, and semi promises that any of the leaders make??? 

These debates are nothing more that popularity contests, beauty contests. Zero fact, 100 percent fiction.


----------



## sags

The Liberals do have a record of fulfilling their election pledges.

CPP expansion, returning OAS to age 65, increase child benefits, changes to EI, legalize marijuana, eliminate mandatory sentencing, end of life legislation...

They also failed to fulfill some election pledges, so it is a mixed bag of hits and misses.

How fulfilling their pledges will transform the world as they might suggest.....is very questionable.


----------



## Eder

I think a real stand on the environment would be to increase production of our ethical oil to supplant the products that 3rd world countries are subsidizing on the back of social and environmental suppressions. Now that would make a difference but our leaders & most Canadians are spineless and prefer nonsensical solutions.


----------



## ian

Often the issue is not so much the promise...but how the promise will be implemented, when it will be implemented, and to what extent it is funded. These details never seem to be covered off. It is easy to read the polls and make have the appropriate promises roll off those wagging tongues. 

The devil is in the details these pros know it. Any promise can be couched in enough ifs, ands, and buts to make it's reality completely worthless

Promising is one thing. Each voter's perception of what that means could be different. No different from the family values and the law and order charade that some candidates routinely pull out at election time.

And if we get a minority Government....well it all goes out the window in favour of the name of remaining in power by doing anything and everything to get the support required to remain in Government.


----------



## sags

The Liberals and Conservatives have changed places in the seat projections.


----------



## nathan79

^ That doesn't factor in last night's debate, where Trudeau looked terrible. (O'Toole and Singh weren't much better, but Trudeau kept interrupting and running over his allotted time.)


----------



## sags

I went to an early poll and left without voting.

They had 1 poll station open and said it would be a 35 minute wait to vote. There were only 10 of us there. Everyone is a foot apart and one woman was wearing an open half face shield that only covered her mouth. I decided I didn't want to hang around there that long.

One poll worker said she was working at different polls at different times and days. She is working them all.

I suspect they don't have enough poll workers. This could get interesting.


----------



## KaeJS

PPC is the only vote.

Liberals are insane.
NDP is some next gen insanity for Gen Z's.
Conservatives are red inside and blue outside.
Green is nothing.
The Bloc? Does anyone even care about Quebec?

PPC has my vote.
And no, I'm not racist.


----------



## MrMatt

KaeJS said:


> PPC is the only vote.
> 
> Liberals are insane.
> NDP is some next gen insanity for Gen Z's.
> Conservatives are red inside and blue outside.
> Green is nothing.
> The Bloc? Does anyone even care about Quebec?
> 
> PPC has my vote.
> And no, I'm not racist.


I'm voting for the least awful, until they get ranked ballot so we can vote FOR our preferred candidate.


----------



## like_to_retire

KaeJS said:


> PPC has my vote.


Sure, and PPC would have my vote also, except I understand that a vote in this election for PPC is a vote for Trudeau. You do realize that right?

ltr


----------



## Eder

I too would back bernier but the chance of sending that ballerina packing has me voting for the cons


----------



## KaeJS

like_to_retire said:


> Sure, and PPC would have my vote also, except I understand that a vote in this election for PPC is a vote for Trudeau. You do realize that right?
> 
> ltr


Oh, I realize.

I'm not dumb.

But this year I'm supporting who I want and I'm done voting for people who I don't want just to get rid of the Drama Teacher.

The conservatives have let me down. I loved Harper. But he is long gone and the conservatives are basically liberals with a costume on.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> View attachment 22144
> 
> The Liberals and Conservatives have changed places in the seat projections.


The election is not today. We did however vote in the advance poll today.

No matter who wins I feel so fortunate to live in Canada. Even more so over the past five years of Trump nonsense.


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> Sure, and PPC would have my vote also, except I understand that a vote in this election for PPC is a vote for Trudeau. You do realize that right?
> 
> ltr


Absolutely!


----------



## gibor365

KaeJS said:


> PPC is the only vote.
> 
> Liberals are insane.
> NDP is some next gen insanity for Gen Z's.
> Conservatives are red inside and blue outside.
> Green is nothing.
> The Bloc? Does anyone even care about Quebec?
> 
> PPC has my vote.
> And no, I'm not racist.


I agree with this description , but to be "red inside and blue outside" may be just tactical move to attract more voters....


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Good news for cops 
According to the RCMP, as of April 1, 2022 a constable will make up to $106,576 — a jump of $20,000. A staff sergeant will make between $134,912 and $138,657 next year. Constables account for more than half of the RCMP's ranks.


----------



## james4beach

I voted today, near the closing time for the advance poll. There was nobody there... just me.


----------



## sags

Conservative support has fallen off the cliff.

The projected seat totals are Liberals 152 to Conservatives 126.

Probability of the Liberals winning a majority - 19% 

Probability of the Conservatives winning a majority - 2% 

Probability of the Liberals winning the most seats but not a majority - 51% 

Probability of the Conservatives winning the most seats but not a majority - 27%


----------



## fstamand

The tool failed.


----------



## sags

He blew a big lead like Scheer did. The Conservatives need a closer who can actually pitch.


----------



## sags

The way it is going the Liberals should have their majority sometime next week.


----------



## fstamand

Cue the wexit crybabies.


----------



## sags

Wow........the Nanos poll released today is even worse for the Conservatives.

The Liberals jumped 3% and now lead the Conservatives in popular vote.

The Liberals are now back to where they were when the election was called.

Liberals 34.4% to Conservatives 30.1%









Liberals see a jump in support after back-to-back debates: Nanos


After French- and English-language debates, the Liberals are polling 3 per cent higher than prior to the debates.



www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## sags

I think the senior vote was keen on O"Toole but he was dismissive on questions posed to him about what he was doing for seniors.

Trudeau's proposals aren't much but O'Toole telling low income seniors they wouldn't have to pay GST for a month was lame and insulting.


----------



## ian

This is the fun time....in the home stretch and it is anyone's ball game. Todays polls could be meaningless. Remember when Trudeau trounced Harper-and the trajectory of the polling leading up to the Harper defeat?. Or last election when Scheer's dream team of political advisers assured him one week from voting day that he would end up 20 seats ahead of Trudeau? This could easily happen to Erin or to Justin.

Not to mention a minor polling detail called margin of error. Or the impact of regional diversity and traditional party strength on those polling numbers. A margin of one vote is all that is required to carry a riding-does not need to a 15000 vote lead. Or the polling bias of land line vs cell phone polls. 

Which team will strike out and have the leader or a lead team member say or doing something incredibly stupid?

It can happen to either party. Remember Chris Alexander/Kelly Leitch Barbaric Practices Hotline disaster. It moved the Harper team from a minority Government to Official Opposition in about four days flat (and ended both of their political careers)??? They did not even need Kelly Keitch's ridiculous proposed 'values test' for citizenship to sink the ship.

The wild cards....NDP, Bloc, and to a much lesser extent PPC.

This is pro ball. It is when the political advisors and the respective national election HQ teams truly earn their crust.

Certainly more interesting that the election 2021 debate IMHO!


----------



## MrMatt

I voted.
Nothing can change my vote.


----------



## ian

Whoever wins we will all win. A good percentage of the world's population envy what we have. Free and open elections, healthy economy ,good social systems, and a democratic Government.


----------



## MrMatt

ian said:


> Whoever wins we will all win. A good percentage of the world's population envy what we have. Free and open elections, healthy economy ,good social systems, and a democratic Government.


No, whoever "wins", we all lose.

Both the major parties have bad plans for the future, and the third party is even worse.

have you read their platforms?
Do you see what they're proposing?
Have you watched what they've been doing?

The current Trudeau government is implementing systematic racial and gender discrimination, in government, and encouraging it in the private sector. 
And he'll get re-elected.
How you can see this as anything but an abject failure is beyond me.


----------



## sags

All of the political parties, and without any doubt the two parties in contention propose......moving Canada forward economically, addressing social needs, building strong infrastructure, expanding and funding healthcare, funding research and development, creating manufacturing in Canada for essential items, maintaining a pathway for immigration, support for the military........and more.

They have the essentially the same goals but different approaches to how to accomplish them.

Regardless of who forms the government, Canada will continue to thrive.


----------



## KaeJS

It will also continue to become a more expensive place to live and harder to get by. With every future generation being squandered more and more.


----------



## fstamand

KaeJS said:


> It will also continue to become a more expensive place to live and harder to get by. With every future generation being squandered more and more.


Yet the cons platform would cost even more than libs.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

MrMatt said:


> I voted.
> Nothing can change my vote.


Voted today as well.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> All of the political parties, and without any doubt the two parties in contention propose......moving Canada forward economically, addressing social needs, building strong infrastructure, expanding and funding healthcare, funding research and development, creating manufacturing in Canada for essential items, maintaining a pathway for immigration, support for the military........and more.
> 
> They have the essentially the same goals but different approaches to how to accomplish them.
> 
> Regardless of who forms the government, Canada will continue to thrive.


They're moving Canada backwards. They're actively working against their primary purpose of fairness, equality and security.
They do have the same goals, they want to be the central power running everything, and they care little for the people they "serve".


----------



## KaeJS

fstamand said:


> Yet the cons platform would cost even more than libs.


Vote PPC.


----------



## sags

The latest polls show the Liberals with a fractional lead in popularity, (31.9 to 31.7%) but well ahead in the projected seat count.....154 Libs to 120 Cons.

The Liberals appear to be trouncing the NDP and Bloc in Quebec. It looks like a repeat of 2019, except the Cons may not win the popular vote this time and the Liberals may gain a few seats back in Quebec.



https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## sags

KaeJS said:


> Vote PPC.


I agree. Dissatisfied Conservatives have a home in the PPC.


----------



## fstamand

How I would love to hear a conversation between "prime minister Bernier" and Biden or Putin lol...


----------



## KaeJS

fstamand said:


> How I would love to hear a conversation between "prime minister Bernier" and Biden or Putin lol...


Actually curious..

Would you mind spilling who you are voting for?

I am obviously PPC.


----------



## fstamand

KaeJS said:


> Actually curious..
> 
> Would you mind spilling who you are voting for?


I will not bother voting, my riding has been dark red for years. I'd give Erin a chance if he wasn't such an wannabe liberal hypocrite. And it's written in the stars, he would cut public jobs just like Harper did.


----------



## KaeJS

fstamand said:


> I will not bother voting, my riding has been dark red for years. I'd give Erin a chance if he wasn't such an wannabe liberal hypocrite. And it's written in the stars, he would cut public jobs just like Harper did.


Yeah, he's definitely a tool. 😅


----------



## ian

fstamand said:


> I will not bother voting, my riding has been dark red for years. I'd give Erin a chance if he wasn't such an wannabe liberal hypocrite. And it's written in the stars, he would cut public jobs just like Harper did.


My understanding is that the public service actually grew by ten percent during the Harper years. He did try to reduce it at the end…. It for the most part it was political window dressing for the faithful.


----------



## damian13ster

PPC about to become 4th biggest party in Canada.
That's what happens when Conservatives become left-wing.


----------



## KaeJS

I can only hope!
And I still haven't added my vote yet 😁


----------



## damian13ster

As long as it is still minority government and ideally requiring at least 3 parties to cooperate


----------



## Retiredguy

Trudeau's retort to protester. I have already voted, not for Trudeau, but won't criticize him for the retort to the scumbag.


----------



## afulldeck

KaeJS said:


> I can only hope!
> And I still haven't added my vote yet 😁


Go vote CPC. Right now the PPC will not win any seats they need 4 more years to percolate. Right now, we need to end Trudeau. He is the idiot that needs to leave.


----------



## Synergy

Trudeau should lose for sole reason of spending an absurd amount of money on an unnecessary election. That and the fact that he is an arrogant tool that lacks basic understanding in economics. It's all about the stupid forearm bumps!

Liberals need a new leader.

Most people have no idea what they are voting for so I don't have a lot of confidence in our ability to pick the best party. It's literally a crap shoot, popularity contest, etc.


----------



## gibor365

Trudeau - what a jerk!








Zum Anzeigen anmelden oder registrieren


Sieh dir auf Facebook Beiträge, Fotos und vieles mehr an.




fb.watch


----------



## sags

Vote for Trudeau, as many times as you can.


----------



## gardner

Synergy said:


> Liberals need a new leader.


While I do agree, this fact does not make me like O'Tool any better.


----------



## diharv

gibor365 said:


> Trudeau - what a jerk!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zum Anzeigen anmelden oder registrieren
> 
> 
> Sieh dir auf Facebook Beiträge, Fotos und vieles mehr an.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fb.watch


To quote one of the comments:
"Condescending little child, thats what Trudeau is and his blind flock are just the same!"


----------



## KaeJS

afulldeck said:


> Go vote CPC. Right now the PPC will not win any seats they need 4 more years to percolate. Right now, we need to end Trudeau. He is the idiot that needs to leave.
> 
> 
> View attachment 22159


I can't.

CPC is cucked.

Might as well vote Trudeau. I'm sticking it to the man this time. I want Bernier to know he has backers. I want to see PPC rise up. I know they won't win. I understand they won't win.

But I rather have my vote go to PPC and keep them for the future instead of everyone rushing to vote CPC and being fukked forever.

CPC is trash. They are actually a disgrace.


----------



## damian13ster

KaeJS said:


> I can't.
> 
> CPC is cucked.
> 
> Might as well vote Trudeau. I'm sticking it to the man this time. I want Bernier to know he has backers. I want to see PPC rise up. I know they won't win. I understand they won't win.
> 
> But I rather have my vote go to PPC and keep them for the future instead of everyone rushing to vote CPC and being fukked forever.
> 
> CPC is trash. They are actually a disgrace.


The reason to vote for them isn't to support CPC. They are left-wing, bordering on far-left so I completely understand your feelings.
The best outcome of this election reasonably possible is to have broad coalition having to come together to govern. That gives the lowest chance for them to go extreme with policies.
Realistically this would be ideal situation, where only 2 coalitions are possible:
Liberal+ NDP + BQ
or 
Conservatives + BQ

Getting to this point is key.

Singh screwed up his chance. He had ideal situation in past 2 years to make a name for himself, to replace Liberals. But he failed to distinguish himself at all. There is zero chance he will suddenly grow a spine and fight for his values in next term so there needs to be BQ there to keep partners in check


----------



## KaeJS

I won't do it.

If my vote is a wasted vote, so be it.

I refuse to vote CPC just to get rid of Trudeau. I want PPC to have a sense of backing. I want them to come back in the future knowing they may have a shot. If everyone voted CPC to get Trudeau out, there would be no PPC.

I cannot and will not give my vote to CPC. As far as I'm concerned, CPC are a bunch of sell outs. They do not have my vote. In fact, I'm not even sure which is worse at this point. Is Trudeau worse? Or is CPC, the party who turned their backs on what they stand for?

Why vote for a party who can't even stick to their name? Forget it.


----------



## MrMatt

KaeJS said:


> I won't do it.
> 
> If my vote is a wasted vote, so be it.
> 
> I refuse to vote CPC just to get rid of Trudeau. I want PPC to have a sense of backing. I want them to come back in the future knowing they may have a shot. If everyone voted CPC to get Trudeau out, there would be no PPC.
> 
> I cannot and will not give my vote to CPC. As far as I'm concerned, CPC are a bunch of sell outs. They do not have my vote. In fact, I'm not even sure which is worse at this point. Is Trudeau worse? Or is CPC, the party who turned their backs on what they stand for?
> 
> Why vote for a party who can't even stick to their name? Forget it.


This is why we need ranked ballot.

Also the Liberals aren't liberal either.
voting is about trade offs, I'm hoping O'Toole is just a bit better than Trudeau.


----------



## like_to_retire

damian13ster said:


> The reason to vote for them isn't to support CPC. They are left-wing, bordering on far-left so I completely understand your feelings.


CPC are hardly far left. The Left don't believe in free speech or a free press, and that's something attractive to Trudeau and the Liberals. CPC would be considered small "L" liberal, but not Left.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> CPC are hardly far left. The Left don't believe in free speech or a free press, and that's something attractive to Trudeau and the Liberals. CPC would be considered small "L" liberal, but not Left.
> 
> ltr


No, but the CPC have shifted to a left leaning big spending government.
I like the "no strings attached" aspects, but we know it's easy to attach strings later.

What I'd really like is a simple liberal government that respected human rights, and wasn't trying to micromanage my life.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> No, but the CPC have shifted to a left leaning big spending government.


Sure, but you have to win an election first. It's painfully obvious that voters simply want free money, so you need to cater to this somewhat to win an election. CPC also have the unfortunate situation of fighting another conservative party in this election where they would have otherwise won hands down, but there are those voters who feel taking a stand with PPC and ensuring the Liberals win is a smart strategy.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> Sure, but you have to win an election first. It's painfully obvious that voters simply want free money, so you need to cater to this somewhat to win an election. CPC also have the unfortunate situation of fighting another conservative party in this election where they would have otherwise won hands down, but there are those voters who feel taking a stand with PPC and ensuring the Liberals win is a smart strategy.
> 
> ltr


That's unfortunately the game we play in our multi party system.
Liberals and CPC benefit greatly by being the more centrist options in our FPTP winner take all system. We have to select strategic compromise candidates, but at least our elections aren't the US disaster.
Also so far we've been able to hold off insecure voting online Federally, but there are some cities who run online elections.


----------



## damian13ster

Canada's inflation highest since 2003. 
But sure, let's focus on dozen morons in front of a hospital instead of actual issues facing Canadians


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Canada's inflation highest since 2003.
> But sure, let's focus on dozen morons in front of a hospital instead of actual issues facing Canadians


 ... maybe you should tell that to those dozens of morons with the time on their hands protesting in front of a hospital instead of going to work and paying their fair share of taxes ... to keep up with inflation (or maybe this inflation thing doesn't affect or exists for them?).


----------



## damian13ster

No, micromanaging lives is not good.
They make and are responsible for their own decision.

Inflation however is a massive tax on working poor, and it is a result of fiscal and monetary policy.
It would help to have PM that actually thinks about monetary policy.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... maybe you should tell that to those dozens of morons with the time on their hands protesting in front of a hospital instead of going to work and paying their fair share of taxes ... to keep up with inflation (or maybe this inflation thing doesn't affect or exists for them?).


They're just doing what Trudeau told them.


----------



## sags

Supply lines shut down due to closures and restrictions. Shortages of products are created, so prices go up.

The inflation is temporary and will likely be replaced by deflation. When that happens......you can start to worry.


----------



## sags

Conservatives have given up on their platform and are focusing on lame attack ads and rhetoric against the Liberals.

It has been revealed that O'Toole sent a letter to the Quebec Premier promising to send Quebec extra money.

So O'Toole has now promised to send both Alberta and Quebec extra money.

Pretty clear that......shore up the base in Alberta and gain seats in Quebec is the Hail Mary plan now.

I suspect the desperation is due to internal polling by the Conservatives that shows they are going to get trounced in the election.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> I suspect the desperation is due to internal polling by the Conservatives that shows they are going to get trounced in the election.


So you feel that all the standard professional polls that are taken and revealed every day that show a neck-and-neck situation are all bogus and that the Conservative party has a special insider poll that is accurate and shows them getting trounced?

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Conservatives have given up on their platform and are focusing on lame attack ads and rhetoric against the Liberals.
> 
> It has been revealed that O'Toole sent a letter to the Quebec Premier promising to send Quebec extra money.
> 
> So O'Toole has now promised to send both Alberta and Quebec extra money.
> 
> Pretty clear that......shore up the base in Alberta and gain seats in Quebec is the Hail Mary plan now.
> 
> I suspect the desperation is due to internal polling by the Conservatives that shows they are going to get trounced in the election.


O'Toole is pointing out that Trudeau is a bad leader who doesnt' care about Canadians.
This is a perfectly appropriate response to the Liberal plan of running on Trudeaus leadership.

He called the election during the 4th wave of the pandemic, after promising not to FFS.

At least the CPC had a platform, how far into the election did the Liberals release theirs?


----------



## sags

The deciding factor in the results of the California recall was pinned as mandatory vaccinations and restrictions.

Early in the campaign, many Californians bristled against restrictions and were unhappy with Governor Newsom's restrictions.

With the increase of the Delta variant, the public mood changed and supported the mandates and restrictions and he won by over 30% points.

I think this election is following the same path. O'Toole lost the election by refusing mandatory vaccinations and restrictions.

Playing down the Delta variant is going to bring down a lot of politicians.......likely including some Canadian Premiers.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> O'Toole is pointing out that Trudeau is a bad leader who doesnt' care about Canadians.
> 
> At least the CPC had a platform, how far into the election did the Liberals release theirs?


The Liberals released their 2021 budget months ago. That is the core piece of their election platform.

The Liberals have run on the policies contained in the budget, with a few added election pledges.

One major difference is the Liberal budget is very detailed and comprehensive, while O'Toole's release was an assembly of "plans" that lacked any detail.

O'Toole has also had difficulty explaining his official stance on several issues (climate change, gun control,) conflicting with his campaign pledges.

Canadians want leadership stability........not a leader who says one thing out west and another thing in Quebec and the east.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> Conservatives have given up on their platform and are focusing on lame attack ads and rhetoric against the Liberals.
> 
> It has been revealed that O'Toole sent a letter to the Quebec Premier promising to send Quebec extra money.
> 
> So O'Toole has now promised to send both Alberta and Quebec extra money.
> 
> Pretty clear that......shore up the base in Alberta and gain seats in Quebec is the Hail Mary plan now.
> 
> I suspect the desperation is due to internal polling by the Conservatives that shows they are going to get trounced in the election.


I believe many undecided are making up their minds now. Time will tell.

I can tell you that in Alberta the Conservatives are desperate to shore up their base in four or five ridings. The concern is that the supposed PPC 6 percent vote share could be as high as 10 in these ridings. Three of them in Edmonton, one or two in the Calgary area.

O'Toole has underperformed in Alberta, he is viewed as being tied at the hip with Kenney whose popularity has never been lower. The PPC appears to be the big threat in terms of their ability to bleed votes away from the Conservatives. The Maverick Party is exactly where they should be...nowhere, MIA, and simply not relevant.

It is anyone's guess what will transpire at the polls on Monday. Whatever the outcome, it will hardly be earth shattering or life changing.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> The Liberals released their 2021 budget months ago. That is the core piece of their election platform.
> 
> The Liberals have run on the policies contained in the budget, with a few added election pledges.


Sorry, of legislation that has already been passed into law isn't an "election platform".
Whats next, the next election platform detail is Trudeau won't murder anyone? 
Following the laws of Canada is a basic requirement, not an election platform.


----------



## sags

The PPC may be doing the Conservatives a favor by allowing them to shovel the dissidents off to the PPC and rebuild the party without them.

What should separate the Conservatives from the Liberals.........doesn't. They are both big spenders with no viable plan to balance the budget.

The positions would traditionally be...cut spending (Conservatives) or raise taxes (Liberals). That dynamic is missing in this election.

Neither party wants to do either. The only way to balance the budget is to do both, cut spending and raise taxes, but the party pledging to do that doesn't exist.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> The PPC may be doing the Conservatives a favor by allowing them to shovel the dissidents off to the PPC and rebuild the party without them.
> 
> What should separate the Conservatives from the Liberals.........doesn't. They are both big spenders with no viable plan to balance the budget.
> 
> The positions would traditionally be...cut spending (Conservatives) or raise taxes (Liberals). That dynamic is missing in this election.
> 
> Neither party wants to do either.


That is exactly what was said about the Reform Party when it was formed.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Supply lines shut down due to closures and restrictions. Shortages of products are created, so prices go up.
> 
> The inflation is temporary and will likely be replaced by deflation. When that happens......you can start to worry.


Look at how high money supply went.
Look at quantitative easing
The supply chain isn't only reason for inflation.
Monetary policy is major one.

And I won't be worried by deflation or stagnation of prices. I am well positioned for that and generally it benefits working class.
Inflation is there solely to bail out idiots in government and their deficit spending.
What we are getting now and what is likely to continue unless fiscal and monetary policy changes is stagflation.


----------



## sags

Imagine what the economy would look like today, if the Liberals had said.....sorry, we can't afford to spend any money.

No PPE, no support for healthcare, no support for business or workers, no support for vaccine research......

Our economy would have collapsed and we would be in the throes of a deep depression.

There are sound economic reasons why virtually every developed country came forward with copious amounts of financial support.

The only countries who didn't......had no access to money to do so, and have suffered greatly because of it.

As Trudeau said from the start.........the government took on debt so Canadians didn't have to, and many wouldn't have been able to.


----------



## damian13ster

Yeah, because Pfizer and Moderna would stop their research without my taxes going to subsidize them  
Liberals actually cut healthcare during pandemic for political reasons.
Our economy did worst among G7 with highest spending among G7.
Imagine how great we would do with government that wouldn't have single worst economic record among developed countries, and 4th worst in entire world.

There are sound economic reasons why every developed country spent less than Canada and with better results - they don't all have morons in government


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Imagine what the economy would look like today, if the Liberals had said.....sorry, we can't afford to spend any money.
> 
> No PPE, no support for healthcare, no support for business or workers, no support for vaccine research......
> 
> Our economy would have collapsed and we would be in the throes of a deep depression.
> 
> There are sound economic reasons why virtually every developed country came forward with copious amounts of financial support.
> 
> The only countries who didn't......had no access to money to do so, and have suffered greatly because of it.
> 
> As Trudeau said from the start.........the government took on debt so Canadians didn't have to, and many wouldn't have been able to.


Nobody is disputing that spending and debt was required.
There is a reason the parties gave him so much power, and let that spending happen. 

I don't even know what point your arguing, that the other parties wouldn't have done that? That's ridiculous.

The issue I have is that Trudeaus support and handouts were overly political and missed many people who needed help, and was overly cumbersome.
Ie it was a poorly run set of programs. Not that the idea was bad, not that we shouldn't do it, just we should have done a better job.

Just like the unnecessary WE scandal, we already have government departments that do these programs, he skipped all that experience and knowledge to create a messy hodge-podge of systems that spent too much money and didn't help Canadians enough, and created significant problems.


----------



## spiritwalker2222

KaeJS said:


> PPC has my vote.
> And no, I'm not racist.


LOL, is that the party slogan?


----------



## sags

Helping disenfranchised people is racism against white people....don't you know.


----------



## sags

_Nobody is disputing that spending and debt was required._

PC finance critic Pierre Poilevere was railing against it every day, until O'Toole finally moved him out.


----------



## damian13ster

He is disenfranchising the very people he claims to help.
Which is for political benefit.
If he didn't create racist policies, then he couldn't then promise to fight racism
If he actually helped Aboriginal communities, then he couldn't spend another campaign making promises.

That's why he promotes racism, and that's why he screws the aboriginals. Even vaccine mandates disproportionately affect aboriginal population.
They are a group with lowest vaccination rate, for good reasons - because government experimented on them and previous mandated medical procedures didn't turn out so good for natives.
So now Trudeau will make sure they remain disenfranchised and unemployed.

Then next elections he will be promising again to help them.

Pure politics - unfortunately at a real cost to Canadians


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> _Nobody is disputing that spending and debt was required._
> 
> PC finance critic Pierre Poilevere was railing against it every day, until O'Toole finally moved him out.


If you actually listened, he didn't rally against spending. He rallied against stupid, unproductive spending.
There is significant difference.


----------



## sags

Oh no......Conservatives are in the lead in the polls again. It is neck and neck, but the ridings count is still favoring the Liberals.

The Liberals are rolling master poltician Jean Chretien.....out of the seniors home. Who will counter from the Conservatives alumni ?

The Toronto area and BC......appear to be the battle grounds. All the parties are coming to chat.


----------



## sags

Grocery list for election night.

Popcorn, chips, sausage, perogies, crackers, cheese, wine, whiskey, soda, chili, buns, cold cuts, veggies, dip, fruit,...maybe Polish potato salad if wife makes.

No weed though. This is serious business.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Helping disenfranchised people is racism against white people....don't you know.


I didn't know that, likely because it isn't true.

I honestly don't see how it could be racist to help disenfranchised people.
Could you give an example how an assistant program, which doesn't discriminate on race, is racist?


----------



## sags

You already provided your example. The financial support program for black business people.

You said it was discriminatory against white people.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> You already provided your example. The financial support program for black business people.
> 
> You said it was discriminatory against white people.


No, I didn't. You said that.

I said it was racist, which it is, it discriminates by race.
It is an overtly and intentionally racist program.
In addition, it's not a program to help disenfranchised people.
I'll let you in on a secret that not many racists know, not all people of a particular race are the same, they're actually individual people.

If it was a "support program for disenfranchised people", that would be fine. But that's not what the program is.


----------



## sags

Word salad........you sound like Erin O'Toole.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Word salad........you sound like Erin O'Toole.


If a program treats people differently because of their race, it is a racist program.
that's it.

My issue that these exact same programs could exist, and be acceptable, if they simply removed the racial component from their criteria.
I oppose ALL racism. You don't.
You don't even seem to understand that treating people differently based on the colour of their skin is wrong.


----------



## KaeJS

It blows my mind how divided we are as Canadians. The only people we ever fight is each other. So sad.


----------



## KaeJS

damian13ster said:


> No, micromanaging lives is not good.
> They make and are responsible for their own decision.
> 
> Inflation however is a massive tax on working poor, and it is a result of fiscal and monetary policy.
> It would help to have PM that actually thinks about monetary policy.


I love your posts.


----------



## KaeJS

spiritwalker2222 said:


> LOL, is that the party slogan?


I can't see how PPC ever got a bad rep for being racist when they are not.

Because they want to cut immigration?
Because they want to cut spending on multiculturalism?

Doesn't mean they are racist.

My favourite is when people say I'm selfish for voting PPC. It's as if, at some point in the history of mankind, looking out for yourself became something you shouldn't do. Apparently I missed the memo.


----------



## sags

Everybody votes for their own interests. Just some pretend they have higher motives of saving the world and so on.


----------



## sags

MrMatt said:


> If a program treats people differently because of their race, it is a racist program.
> that's it.
> 
> My issue that these exact same programs could exist, and be acceptable, if they simply removed the racial component from their criteria.
> I oppose ALL racism. You don't.
> You don't even seem to understand that treating people differently based on the colour of their skin is wrong.


Word salad with a vinaigrette dressing.


----------



## ian

sags said:


> _Nobody is disputing that spending and debt was required._
> 
> PC finance critic Pierre Poilevere was railing against it every day, until O'Toole finally moved him out.


I believe that he was moved out for another reason. He was stealing the limelight from O'Toole AND trying to position himself as a leadership candidate should O'Toole be less than successful on Monday next.


----------



## gibor365

KaeJS said:


> I can't see how PPC ever got a bad rep for being racist when they are not.
> 
> Because they want to cut immigration?
> Because they want to cut spending on multiculturalism?
> 
> Doesn't mean they are racist.
> 
> My favourite is when people say I'm selfish for voting PPC. It's as if, at some point in the history of mankind, looking out for yourself became something you shouldn't do. Apparently I missed the memo.


Interesting article of who supports PPC








Rupa Subramanya: The People's Party of Canada's rise is more complicated than anti-Trudeau rage


Supporters dream of an 'NDP of the right'




nationalpost.com


----------



## sags

ian said:


> I believe that he was moved out for another reason. He was stealing the limelight from O'Toole AND trying to position himself as a leadership candidate should O'Toole be less than successful on Monday next.


That too.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> Grocery list for election night.


I think you'll need all that food as I understand that because of mail-in voting they estimate we won't know the results for up to 5 days after election day.









Elections Canada says it could take up to 5 days to count every last ballot


Canadians are inching closer to election day, when the 36-day campaign will come to a close and a new Parliament will be ushered in, but will there actually be a clear winner on Sept. 20?



www.ctvnews.ca





ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> I think you'll need all that food as I understand that because of mail-in voting they estimate we won't know the results for up to 5 days after election day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elections Canada says it could take up to 5 days to count every last ballot
> 
> 
> Canadians are inching closer to election day, when the 36-day campaign will come to a close and a new Parliament will be ushered in, but will there actually be a clear winner on Sept. 20?
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ltr


Matters how close the votes actually are.
I think in many ridings it's pretty clear cut, though it seems mail in ballots could be high this year.


----------



## Eclectic21

MrMatt said:


> ... it seems mail in ballots could be high this year ...


It is more likely a fact.

The quoted article said over one million voting kits have been sent to electors living within their riding. This in an increase from an earlier article where this number was over six hundred seventy thousand.

The earlier article quoted an Elections official that the 2019 election's number was about five thousand.








Many mail-in ballots requested, but not the millions Elections Canada expected


With just over a week to go before election day, mail-in ballot requests are up, but not by as much as Elections Canada were anticipating.



www.ctvnews.ca






On one hand, it's not the millions that was anticipated while on the other hand, it is significantly higher.


Cheers


----------



## sags

We should have online voting.


----------



## sags

We could log into Elections Canada and sign in with two factor authorization, get sent a verification email or text, and then vote.

It would drop the $600 million cost of the election down to almost nothing.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> We should have online voting.


I feel people should have to put at least a little effort into voting. On-line voting is just too easy. It would attract more votes from people who put no effort to understand who they're voting for. We have enough of that type already.

ltr


----------



## nathan79

sags said:


> We could log into Elections Canada and sign in with two factor authorization, get sent a verification email or text, and then vote.
> 
> It would drop the $600 million cost of the election down to almost nothing.


Doubt we'd save anything since we'd still have to maintain the legacy system for non-internet users and those who don't own smartphones and/or don't feel comfortable with putting sensitive data online. In fact it would probably cost more because we'd be maintaining two voting systems.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> We could log into Elections Canada and sign in with two factor authorization, get sent a verification email or text, and then vote.
> 
> It would drop the $600 million cost of the election down to almost nothing.


Great, steal a phone, steal a vote.
Remember when CRA was hacked?

Sorry, the MOST important part of an election is that it is secure and trusted. You put it online, I don't trust it.
Why? Because every single security expert says a secure online election is not possible. 
The government committee also said it isn't possible in their report.

How can you possibly justify untrusted elections?
Look at the mess in the US, lets stick to our trustworthy system.


----------



## diharv

Almost nothing with this government usually has a number followed by nine zeros.


----------



## KaeJS

MrMatt said:


> Great, steal a phone, steal a vote.
> Remember when CRA was hacked?
> 
> Sorry, the MOST important part of an election is that it is secure and trusted. You put it online, I don't trust it.
> Why? Because every single security expert says a secure online election is not possible.
> The government committee also said it isn't possible in their report.
> 
> How can you possibly justify untrusted elections?
> Look at the mess in the US, lets stick to our trustworthy system.


I'm sure it can be done online securely.


----------



## KaeJS

like_to_retire said:


> I feel people should have to put at least a little effort into voting. On-line voting is just too easy. It would attract more votes from people who put no effort to understand who they're voting for. We have enough of that type already.
> 
> ltr


This is assumptive and ridiculous lol.

Again with the rights of people... It doesn't MATTER if they put effort or thought into it or not. It is THEIR RIGHT to vote. My god.

Are we just losing all of our freedoms these days? Are we attaching stipulations to everything?

It is NONE of your business if people put effort to learn about the parties or platforms.


----------



## MrMatt

KaeJS said:


> I'm sure it can be done online securely.


Based on what?
The fact that every informed expert thinks it is not possible?
Including the committee tasked with investigating, didn't think it was possible.

So what do you know, that the rest of the world doesn't?


----------



## sags

You think a bunch of minor league nerds can create a secure blockchain, but the most intelligent and capable security experts in the world can't create a secure voting portal ? Pffft.......try breaking into the Kentucky Fried Chicken top level secret database to discover "the recipe".

Many have tried and failed, and the fried chicken security force came knocking on their door.


----------



## MrMatt

Lets take a simple example.
I get your voter card in the mail, I log in as you, I vote.

I try to vote, now what?


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> You think a bunch of minor league nerds can create a secure blockchain, but the most intelligent security experts in the world can't create a secure voting portal ?


No, and no.
1. I don't think minor league nerds created a secure blockchain.
2. The most intelligent security experts in the world say that it isn't possible to create a secure voting system.










Internet or Online Voting Remains Insecure


All internet voting systems and technologies — including email and mobile voting apps — are currently inherently insecure. There is no technical evidence that any internet voting technology is safe or can be made so in the foreseeable future; all research to date demonstrates the opposite.




www.aaas.org




*Experts agree that ballots should not be transmitted over the internet*
A 2015 report by the U.S. Vote Foundation warned that no current Internet voting system is sufficiently secure and reliable for use in public elections.4

Basically no reputable expert thinks it is possible to have secure online elections.
Do you know of any reputable security expert who thinks it is possible?


----------



## MrMatt

MrMatt said:


> 1. I don't think minor league nerds created a secure blockchain.


To elaborate, I think some people took existing public key cryptography, which has been widely and publicly available for decades, and based on the web of trust concept, made a "chain of trust".


----------



## KaeJS

MrMatt said:


> Based on what?
> The fact that every informed expert thinks it is not possible?
> Including the committee tasked with investigating, didn't think it was possible.
> 
> So what do you know, that the rest of the world doesn't?


You have to be kidding me.

A good start would be maybe using your banking login as part of the process. Pretty much every Canadian has a banking login.

If the banks aren't secure enough, why do people keep their entire info and money on there?

You can already login to myCRA through the concierge system.

There is obviously a way to do it.

Also - it's funny you think there is no tampering with the votes using our current method lol.


----------



## ian

No wonder Albertans are confused and why some are seriously looking at PPC.

First it was no carbon taxes ever. And I will rescind them.

Then it was, well yes, a carbon charge, not a tax, and our plan is better. Trust us...each Canadian will have a 'carbon tax account' It will be wonderful, you'll see.

Now it is....well yes, we intend to keep the current carbon tax in place. Radio silence on the rest.

SO...what is it?? Carbon tax, no carbon tax, keep the current tax.... What will it be tomorrow or when O'Toole is in front of another audience?

Not to mention that bad Equalization Payment formula that O'Toole so often criticizes. Even though the current formula is the one developed, put in place by the Harper Government and sold to Albertans by Kenney and Harper as a 'good' thing for them.


----------



## MrMatt

KaeJS said:


> If the banks aren't secure enough, why do people keep their entire info and money on there?


Because fraud can be detected and corrected.

You can't do that with a free vote.



> Also - it's funny you think there is no tampering with the votes using our current method lol.


I think our current system is pretty good, sure there are some issues, but it would be a massive undertaking to systemically impact the results, we're talking breaking the security at literally thousands of physical locations.

I don't think it happens to htat extent.

Online voting, we wouldn't even necessarily know.


----------



## sags

It would be a massive undertaking to steal enough cell phones to make a difference, or hack enough passwords into a website.

More likely the hack would be at the website, and if the information is stored offline....there is nothing to gain from the hack.


----------



## sags

Former President Obama endorses Justin Trudeau !

Maybe Former President Trump will endorse Erin O'Toole ?

"Wishing my friend Justin Trudeau the best in Canada's upcoming election," Obama's message read. "Justin has been an effective leader and strong voice for democratic values, and I'm proud of the work we did together."


----------



## fstamand

^ is it just me or that won't make a difference at all in this election.


----------



## sags

Obama's support likely won't....but Trump's might cause O'Toole some heartburn.

It is nice to have our PM considered a solid world leader though.

Especially when the Conservatives continually challenge Trudeau's foreign policy record.


----------



## gibor365

KaeJS said:


> You have to be kidding me.
> 
> A good start would be maybe using your banking login as part of the process. Pretty much every Canadian has a banking login.
> 
> If the banks aren't secure enough, why do people keep their entire info and money on there?
> 
> You can already login to myCRA through the concierge system.
> 
> There is obviously a way to do it.
> 
> Also - it's funny you think there is no tampering with the votes using our current method lol.


I agree 100%! I trust banking system to hold our 2M+ in different securities. We didn’t experience any fraud. Who cares about already non-democratic election system we have?! We live on red Mississauga, our votes mean nothing ! Maybe Putin cares?! No country give a [email protected] (include majority of Canadians) who will be PM - Trudeau or O’Toole!
Some criminals committing fraud indeed, but they need to steal money, do they really care about LPC vs CPC ?! 😁

And really, how people who is on quarantine gonna vote?!


----------



## kcowan

gibor365 said:


> And really, how people who is on quarantine gonna vote?!


Fedex said we could just drop off our results at their nearest drop location. Yea no problem. Just a short car ride from home. Thanks Trudeau!

We cannot trust a change to our voting system to politicians. Get Dominion Voting Systems to do it!


----------



## MrMatt

I think this sums it up for me.








Sabrina Maddeaux: Canada is an angrier more divided place and Trudeau is to blame


Trudeau overlooked the volcano of frustration, fear and, yes, hate that would erupt by thrusting the nation into weeks of campaign rhetoric and resurfaced…




nationalpost.com


----------



## gibor365

kcowan said:


> Fedex said we could just drop off our results at their nearest drop location. Yea no problem. Just a short car ride from home. Thanks Trudeau!
> 
> We cannot trust a change to our voting system to politicians. Get Dominion Voting Systems to do it!


If you are on quarantine, you cannot get out of your house


----------



## Eclectic21

MrMatt said:


> I think this sums it up for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sabrina Maddeaux: Canada is an angrier more divided place and Trudeau is to blame
> 
> 
> Trudeau overlooked the volcano of frustration, fear and, yes, hate that would erupt by thrusting the nation into weeks of campaign rhetoric and resurfaced…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Meh ... lots of frustration before the election so IMO, it's more that Trudeau poured gas on the fire.
It's not like the anti-mask/vaccine stuff started when the election was announced.

Cheers


----------



## sags

I don't think Liberal or NDP supporters are all that unhappy. It is Conservative supporters who are angry at Trudeau, O'Toole and moving over to Mad Max.


----------



## Eder




----------



## kcowan

gibor365 said:


> If you are on quarantine, you cannot get out of your house


Yet Fedex, the soul source for Trudeau's quarantine testing, suggested it. Then they said I should get a friend to deliver it. If you have experienced the home testing kit, you will realize that it is designed by idiots for idiots. And at great expense without attention to important details.


----------



## kcowan

How do they screen for Covid/Vax at the polling stations Are all employees vaxed? Are all voters vaxed? Is anyone tested for Covid?


----------



## Eder

If voting went like when I voted here in Sidney we are in store for a super spread in the next few weeks. Took like 45 minutes inside in close quarters to cast a special ballot. Whose idea was this election anyway?


----------



## like_to_retire

Interesting interview if someone has the time. You'll know what Maxime Bernier stands for when it's done.

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson is joined by the Honorable Maxime Bernier Sep 17, 2021






ltr


----------



## sags

kcowan said:


> How do they screen for Covid/Vax at the polling stations Are all employees vaxed? Are all voters vaxed? Is anyone tested for Covid?


Vaccinations aren't required for anyone. No testing. It will be difficult enough to process all the voters in a reasonable amount of time.


----------



## sags

Eder said:


> View attachment 22179


The map is similar to a US map....liberal/democrat supporters occupy a much smaller land base in heavily populated urban areas while the conservatives/republicans occupy vast amounts of land where the population is small and spread out.

It is interesting but meaningless, since land doesn't vote.

If votes were tallied by the acre.......conservatives would win easily.


----------



## sags

like_to_retire said:


> Interesting interview if someone has the time. You'll know what Maxime Bernier stands for when it's done.
> 
> Dr. Jordan B. Peterson is joined by the Honorable Maxime Bernier Sep 17, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ltr


Peterson did a better job of interviewing Bernier than I would have thought.

Better than many wishy washy journalists I think. Maybe he has a future as a "tough question' kind of interviewer ?

As for Bernier, I am not sure what he is talking about. As one example......

He doesn't like that Trudeau/O'Toole identify Canadians as "Chinese Canadians, or Muslim Canadian" ?

Isn't respect shown for their individual hertiage, while at the same time celebrating their Canadian citizenship what immigrants prefer ?

I don't see how addressing everyone simply as Canadian accomplishes much, unless it is an attempt to mash everyone into one monolithic lump of humanity.


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> He doesn't like that Trudeau/O'Toole identify Canadians as "Chinese Canadians, or Muslim Canadian" ?
> 
> Isn't respect shown for their individual heritage, while at the same time celebrating their Canadian citizenship what immigrants prefer ?
> 
> I don't see how addressing everyone simply as Canadian accomplishes much, unless it is an attempt to mash everyone into one monolithic lump of humanity.


I don't know what a monolithic lump of humanity is, but I don't want to be referred to as a white Canadian. I just want to be a proud Canadian. Do blacks want to be called black Canadians? Do Chinese want to be called Chinese Canadians? Probably not. Some may see this as racist. How about every Canadian is just a Canadian. Radical eh?

ltr


----------



## gibor365

like_to_retire said:


> I don't know what a monolithic lump of humanity is, but I don't want to be referred to as a white Canadian. I just want to be a proud Canadian. Do blacks want to be called black Canadians? Do Chinese want to be called Chinese Canadians? Probably not. Some may see this as racist. How about every Canadian is just a Canadian. Radical eh?
> 
> ltr


We’d be called “Russian-Jewish Canadians”?! Or Israelis temporary residing in Canada?!


----------



## damian13ster

From the interview with Bernier:

"I don't try to appeal to emotions of Canadians, I try to appeal to intelligence in Canadians" - that's where he loses
0% inflation target for BoC is something that is very interesting and I believe amazing proposition. That would solve a lot of problems with pension plans, demographic change, and limit the strain on our resources. Environmentalists should get behind the idea too


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> We’d be called “Russian-Jewish Canadians”?! Or Israelis temporary residing in Canada?!


Not enough adjectives. We need to split Canadians even more than that. Can't have unity - politicians won't allow that


----------



## sags

Identifying everyone simply as a Canadian would create some interesting situations.

A police announcement they are looking for a suspect described as a "Canadian" male, 6 foot 180 libs, with green eyes.......would be a little weird.

All of the ethnic clubs.....Polish club, German Canadian club, Italian club, ........would all be called the "Canadian" club ?


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> We’d be called “Russian-Jewish Canadians”?! Or Israelis temporary residing in Canada?!


Your Russian - Jewish club would just be called the "Canadian" club.


----------



## Eder

A Saturday Leger poll found six per cent of decided voters across Canada intend to cast their ballot for the PPC; that number is the same for decided Alberta voters.

Strange ... I thought Albertan's were standing alone as usual ...seems all of Canada is showing support.


----------



## damian13ster

Oh yeah. Other than territories and Quebec, the support in PPC is quite even across entire country.
Quebec makes sense because there is significant overlap in PPC and BQ thinking.

That is also an issue for PPC. They are still projected to get 0 seats. Their support is spread out pretty evenly across the country so there isn't one riding where they are favored to win.

In this election PPC and Greens are effectively a protest vote saying that Canadian poltiics is so toxic that I want no part of it.

Come next election though..... if Bernier gets more coverage and a chance to get his ideas out there, they can make some serious inroads in just about every province - depending whether CPC becomes far left or moves closer to the center


----------



## sags

PPC gain is CPC loss........so no matter to the other parties. It isn't like the PPC is taking votes from them.


----------



## damian13ster

Maybe. But it isn't like CPC would be at 40% if PPC wasn't there.
Majority of PPC voters are ones who didn't participate in elections before, simply because all choices sucked


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> A Saturday Leger poll found six per cent of decided voters across Canada intend to cast their ballot for the PPC; that number is the same for decided Alberta voters.
> 
> Strange ... I thought Albertan's were standing alone as usual ...seems all of Canada is showing support.


EKOS gives to PPC 9.1%! And to BQ 7.3%! Guess how many seats get BQ and how many PPC!!! 
Our election system is completely corrupted!


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Your Russian - Jewish club would just be called the "Canadian" club.


And what about Quebec separation club?!


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> And what about Quebec separation club?!


Quebec separation would be a non issue if the Federal government didn't intrude on Provincial jurisdiction, and simply acted in the best interests of the country.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> And what about Quebec separation club?!


They would be the "Canadian club" too. Everybody got to be the Canadian Club to eliminate all ethnic designations for Canadians..

Todays soccer matchup........the Canadian Club versus the Canadian Club.

Ethinic festivals scheduled for the park this year.......Canadian Club, Canadian Club, Canadian Club, Canadian Club........


----------



## james4beach

I think people are missing the "big picture" when it comes to the important things government does, and its job.

We just went through the craziest health emergency in modern times, and the Liberal government managed it well. Canada has one of the lowest per capita death rates of all G7. Here are the per capita death rates for the G7

*Canada: 718 deaths (per 1 million)*
UK: 1,979
US: 2,075
France: 1,773
Germany: 1,113
Italy: 2,159
Japan: 136

Frankly I don't care that Justin is pretty... who gives a sh*t? The fact is that the Liberal govt did a great job managing the pandemic, and the economic response, and we're not out of the woods in the pandemic yet. There is no way in hell I would want to switch control to Conservatives, especially as they endorse Kenney's pandemic management. No way in hell.

Keeping us alive and safe from threats (war/invasion, pandemic) is the #1 duty of government.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> I think people are missing the "big picture" when it comes to the important things government does, and its job.
> 
> We just went through the craziest health emergency in modern times, and the Liberal government managed it well. Canada has one of the lowest per capita death rates of all G7. Here are the per capita death rates for the G7
> 
> *Canada: 718 deaths (per 1 million)*
> UK: 1,979
> US: 2,075
> France: 1,773
> Germany: 1,113
> Italy: 2,159
> Japan: 136
> 
> Frankly I don't care that Justin is pretty... who gives a sh*t? The fact is that the Liberal govt did a great job managing the pandemic, and the economic response, and we're not out of the woods in the pandemic yet. There is no way in hell I would want to switch control to Conservatives, especially as they endorse Kenney's pandemic management. No way in hell.
> 
> Keeping us alive and safe from threats (war/invasion, pandemic) is the #1 duty of government.


Alberta is at 577.
Kenney did better job than Liberal government I guess?
Then why is everyone hating on him?

Saskatchewan at 543
Ontario 663.

Provinces led by Conservatives did much better than rest of the country


----------



## sags

Ever been to Saskatchewan ? You can drive for 4 hours before you see another car.

The closest town to my wife's parent's farm has about 10 people living there. The next closest town has 500 people.

There are more people in a Costco in Toronto than live in that "town".

A sparse population in a large land mass had it's advantages during a pandemic.


----------



## damian13ster

Ontario isn't like that though and Conservative premier still did a better job than country average.
Kenney, Moe, Ford all did better than rest of the country


----------



## Eder

Well the important thing was that Hinshaw imposed much fewer restrictions on us while still doing a better job than much of the rest of Canada. I would have hated to wait out this plague in Quebec or Ontario.


----------



## KaeJS

damian13ster said:


> Maybe. But it isn't like CPC would be at 40% if PPC wasn't there.
> Majority of PPC voters are ones who didn't participate in elections before, simply because all choices sucked


This.

My first time voting is this election and my vote is with PPC.

There were no other options before.


----------



## Synergy

james4beach said:


> I think people are missing the "big picture" when it comes to the important things government does, and its job.
> 
> We just went through the craziest health emergency in modern times, and the Liberal government managed it well. Canada has one of the lowest per capita death rates of all G7. Here are the per capita death rates for the G7
> 
> *Canada: 718 deaths (per 1 million)*
> UK: 1,979
> US: 2,075
> France: 1,773
> Germany: 1,113
> Italy: 2,159
> Japan: 136
> 
> Frankly I don't care that Justin is pretty... who gives a sh*t? The fact is that the Liberal govt did a great job managing the pandemic, and the economic response, and we're not out of the woods in the pandemic yet. There is no way in hell I would want to switch control to Conservatives, especially as they endorse Kenney's pandemic management. No way in hell.
> 
> Keeping us alive and safe from threats (war/invasion, pandemic) is the #1 duty of government.


Canada is over 40 x's bigger than the UK and has a lot less population. COVID spreads in densely populated areas. Account for population density and many other factors and Canada won't look so good. 

How can you vote for someone who calls an election in the middle of a pandemic. Don't you think we could have spent the 600+ million in better ways? At the very least, Trudeau should be called upon to step down as PM.


----------



## james4beach

Synergy said:


> Canada is over 40 x's bigger than the UK and has a lot less population. COVID spreads in densely populated areas. Account for population density and many other factors and Canada won't look so good.


No, you're just looking for excuses to downplay the Canadian success here. It's not even true that COVID spreads less in sparse/rural areas. Some rural areas have had the most aggressive COVID spread.

Canada had a very successful pandemic response, including amazing action by the government to secure a LARGE portfolio of vaccines.



Synergy said:


> How can you vote for someone who calls an election in the middle of a pandemic. Don't you think we could have spent the 600+ million in better ways? At the very least, Trudeau should be called upon to step down as PM.


The pandemic is going to continue for quite a while, and voting is not a high risk covid activity. Probably safer than going to a grocery store, given how much control I saw about the # of people.

The advance polls I went to were basically empty.

If you can go to the grocery store, you can go and vote. Really no particular danger as far as I can tell. And quite a few friends of mine are doing mail-in voting, so there are easy options.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> No, you're just looking for excuses to downplay the Canadian success here. It's not even true that COVID spreads less in sparse/rural areas. Some rural areas have had the most aggressive COVID spread.
> 
> Canada had a very successful pandemic response, including amazing action by the government to secure a LARGE portfolio of vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> The pandemic is going to continue for quite a while, and voting is not a high risk covid activity. Probably safer than going to a grocery store, given how much control I saw about the # of people.
> 
> The advance polls I went to were basically empty.
> 
> If you can go to the grocery store, you can go and vote. Really no particular danger as far as I can tell. And quite a few friends of mine are doing mail-in voting, so there are easy options.


That success is largely due to provinces with Conservative premiers bringing the number of deaths down.
Provinces with conservative premiers did much better than rest of the country in lowering the deaths.
For some reason I don't see you signing praises for Moe and Kenney though. Biased much?


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> For some reason I don't see you signing praises for Moe and Kenney though. Biased much?


Now you're just trolling, aren't you? Kenney has pushed the health system near its brink due to his ineptitude.

Kenney has to quit politics and go find another career.

Moe has also failed in his duty to protect the public, absolute disaster for Saskatchewan. I feel sorry for the good people of Alberta and SK... you deserve better.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Now you're just trolling, aren't you? Kenney has pushed the health system near its brink due to his ineptitude.
> 
> Kenney has to quit politics and go find another career.
> 
> Moe has also failed in his duty to protect the public, absolute disaster for Saskatchewan. I feel sorry for the good people of Alberta and SK... you deserve better.


No, I am not. Using exactly the same metric you used to show Canada's success, you will see that all provinces led by Conservatives have lower deaths per million population than national average.
You are letting recency bias affect your judgement. Understandable.
The facts, the metrics you yourself are using are showing though that Conservative provinces did better than rest of the country.

Or do you simply have different standard for Conservative provinces vs rest of the country?


----------



## londoncalling

Synergy said:


> Canada is over 40 x's bigger than the UK and has a lot less population. COVID spreads in densely populated areas. Account for population density and many other factors and Canada won't look so good.
> 
> How can you vote for someone who calls an election in the middle of a pandemic. Don't you think we could have spent the 600+ million in better ways? At the very least, Trudeau should be called upon to step down as PM.


Then why are Japan's numbers so low?


----------



## gibor365

Probably last poll before elections


https://poll.forumresearch.com/data/a9c7ff7a-5a70-4850-a031-55e2ccb47152Federal%202021%20Election%20Prediction.pdf



Cons leading in popular vote and Libs get majority. Exactly like last year.... why 600M were spent for this circus?!

PPC support is up to 10.3% and .... no one seat projected! 
Canadian elections are joke!


----------



## damian13ster

Those are some interesting results for non-binary. Small sample size but still


----------



## james4beach

londoncalling said:


> Then why are Japan's numbers so low?


Yeah the reality is that population density and urban life does not result in runaway covid.

Look at US states like North Dakota, extremely sparse, that had some of the greatest covid disasters. Same for rural Alberta. And previously, rural Manitoba up until a few months ago... the rates were much worse in rural Manitoba than in Winnipeg, the dense population.

Another example is BC. The worst rates were in the interior, quite sparse and rural. The *lowest* rates were in central Vancouver, which has the highest pop density!

Kenney and Moe never took covid seriously and stupidly opened up everything. Now you can't find a hospital bed in Alberta and the ICUs are overflowing, new record highs. And O'Toole supports the Kenney & Moe model ... what stupidity.


----------



## Synergy

londoncalling said:


> Then why are Japan's numbers so low?


Japan is the social distance capital of the world. They where masks to sleep, they don't shake hands, hug, kiss, etc.

There are a ton of factors at play. Density is one of the significant ones. The virus has a chance to spread that much faster, more opportunit to mutate, etc.

Canada get at C in my books. We did ok. 

It's about spending on obscene amount of money on an uneccessay election when the money could have been better spent (COVID RECOVERY) I gave Trudeau an F for stupidity


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> Cons leading in popular vote and Libs get majority. Exactly like last year.... why 600M were spent for this circus?!


Because Trudeau thought he could snag a majority, now that the pandemic is over.


----------



## sags

Was it a majority he was after......to some extent perhaps, but I think the "plan" was to get enough support for their 2022 budget.

I think they planned on some major restructuring changes to social benefits..as in perhaps a Guaranteed Income, and major tax changes to balance the books.

With a majority they could build the budget they want. With a minority supported by the NDP, they get continually pushed to spending and taxing more.

I wonder how a minority will end up changing the 2022 budget from what it might have been with a majority.

I don't think Trudeau wants a majority just because he wants a few more people in the caucus.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Was it a majority he was after......to some extent perhaps, but I think the "plan" was to get enough support for their 2022 budget.
> 
> I think they planned on some major restructuring changes to social benefits..as in perhaps a Guaranteed Income, and major tax changes to balance the books.


Which the NDP support.
Well except for balancing the books, which none of the parties support (least of all the NDP).



> With a majority they could build the budget they want. With a minority supported by the NDP, they get continually pushed to spending and taxing more.


The budget they want is spending and taxing more. The NDP support that.



> I wonder how a minority will end up changing the 2022 budget from what it might have been with a majority.
> 
> I don't think Trudeau wants a majority just because he wants a few more people in the caucus.


Trudeau wants a majority, because he's a dictator at heart and knows there is no real opposition within the Liberal party to keep him reasonable.
It's actually pretty sad that the pandemic weakened opposition was still too much for him. The NDP & CPC were pretty supportive of him in parliment.


----------



## sags

I have seen some other thoughts on the decision to call an election.

Calling an election now, would result in either a majority government for the Liberals, or they would remain in power in a minority government.

So for the Liberals it was a win...win situation to call an election.

It is a different prospect for the Conservatives. If O'Toole doesn't form a minority government, he is likely gone as a leader.

That will put the Conservatives back to being "leaderless" and less able to form an effective opposition.

About the time they get a leader selected, there could well be another election.

Or.....if the minority government is defeated, an election could be held while the Conservatives don't even have a leader.

Bottom line.......I am sure there is a lot more strategy put into the calling of the election than stroking Trudeau's ego.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> I have seen some other thoughts on the decision to call an election.
> 
> Calling an election now, would result in either a majority government for the Liberals, or they would remain in power in a minority government.
> 
> So for the Liberals it was a win...win situation to call an election.


Yes, I see that it's a win/not lose scenario for the Liberals.
They don't care about wasting $600M dollars, or putting the people at risk running an election during the 4th wave of the pandemic.

Once you put your wants ahead of the needs of the people, it's a no brainer.


----------



## sags

I doubt the cost of an election to taxpayers is ever a consideration for any political party on when to call an election.

There have already been elections during the pandemic. Nova Scotia just held one and the Conservatives didn't complain about winning that one.

They may have been mandatory due to term limits, but nevertheless........they were not delayed due to the pandemic, so it wasn't a consideration.

The only way to avoid elections earlier than the 4 year mandate would be to eliminate non-confidence votes.

Minority governments usually last about 18 months, so this election isn't an exception due either to the pandemic or the timing.


----------



## kcowan

I was the only voter on Sept 11th and DW had the same experience a few minutes ago. What would a smaller than usual turnout indicate?


----------



## Beaver101

Long lineups form outside polling stations across Toronto



> ... Polls are open until 9:30 p.m.


I wonder what happens if there is still a line up at 9:30 pm? Do people miss their chance to vote?


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Long lineups form outside polling stations across Toronto
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what happens if there is still a line up at 9:30 pm? Do people miss their chance to vote?


Nope, they keep the polls open for everyone who was in line before the cut off.

Remember in Canada, we have elections Canada which is fortunately non-Partisan. For all the flaws and complaints we have, the bureaucracy is traditionally non partisan. It's also why the partisan actions of Wernick as Clerk of the Privy council were so unsettling.

We don't have thousands of lawyers and courts making things up like they do in the US. 
We have a strong tradition of non partisan operation of government, which is essential to trust in our institutions. The US doesn't have that, which erodes trust.


----------



## sags

Yea, but there are a couple of Provincial politicians who leaned in a little too far into the US style Republican conservatism in their handling of covid.

Thank goodness Ontario Premier Ford went down his own path, and we have fared pretty well considering the massive task he was handed at the same time he inherited a healthcare system that was already under stress.

Sure there were bumps and lumps, but Ford set himself apart by blasting the covidiots in public every chance he got. 

He supported what the majority were thinking.......from all parties.


----------



## sags

The last aggregation of polls on CBC tracker, which is likely the most accurate because it isn't a poll itself, but tracks all the other polls shows.......

Liberals with 155 seats and the Conservatives with 119. That is a considerable drop for the Conservatives over the last weeks of the election campaign.

Of course these are only projections and not results, but something caused a big collapse in projected seats for the Conservatives.

Any ideas what it was ?

Edit.......starting a new Election Results thread.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> Edit.......starting a new Election Results thread.


 ... please do it.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Nope, they keep the polls open for everyone who was in line before the cut off.
> 
> Remember in Canada, we have elections Canada which is fortunately non-Partisan. For all the flaws and complaints we have, the bureaucracy is traditionally non partisan. It's also why the partisan actions of Wernick as Clerk of the Privy council were so unsettling.
> 
> We don't have thousands of lawyers and courts making things up like they do in the US.
> We have a strong tradition of non partisan operation of government, which is essential to trust in our institutions. The US doesn't have that, which erodes trust.


 ... just came back from voting which took an hour (good thing it was for a loooong coffee break ) - a) 45 minutes waiting in line which snaked 2+ blocks around the corner, b) 14 minutes for the electoral officer to check his records, and c) 1 minute for me to put the X.

There were more people in the registry-line to vote than the actual voting lines -talk about time wasting, bunching people in the same line. Inefficiency never fails and the pandemic don't help either. It would not surprise me the line-ups will go right into 9:30 pm, if not past because by the time I left, the line was even longer around another corner that I couldn't see.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> It would not surprise me the long line-ups will go right into 9:30 pm, if not past because by the time I left, the line was even longer around another corner that I couldn't see.


Why didn't you just vote by mail? 

When I went to my local mailbox, there wasn't a single person there.

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

like_to_retire said:


> Why didn't you just vote by mail?
> 
> When I went to my local mailbox, there wasn't a single person there.
> 
> ltr


 ... because I was too busy with work and didn't make the deadline to register voting by mail. Voting is not a priority for me - work is.


----------



## sags

Our advance poll was awful. Long lineups and no workers.

I just voted and it took 15 minutes to drive down a block to the community centre, vote and come home.

There were a couple of polls set up and nobody in my poll. Just walked up....handed the paper......voted and gone.

I did notice the voting paper listed Libertarian first on the ballot and Liberal further down. I guess they go by the name of the candidate alphabetically.

Maybe the Libertarian will get elected by mistake.......


----------



## moderator2

I'm happy to see how calm the CMF threads have been during this election.

I guess we were successful in banning all the trolls the last time around.


----------



## MK7GTI

Before I went to vote I watched this video one last time to remind myself how much of an idiot this guy is.


----------



## sags

Pierre may come across as a little bewildered sometimes, but I wouldn't consider him an idiot.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Pierre may come across as a little bewildered sometimes, but I wouldn't consider him an idiot.


Of course. He isn't.

I like that this is a video where you don't have to add any commentary or personal opinion, and everyone objectively knows right away who the idiot is.


----------



## Eder

Libs trouncing the Cons so far 24-9
NDP non starters


----------



## damian13ster

Eder said:


> Libs trouncing the Cons so far
> NDP non starters


Not really. They are losing seats in Atlantic Canada compared to 2019.
And that's with 1 seat being lost because of PPC.

NDP simply doesn't learn. They had control over government and did absolutely nothing. 
That's not the way to form a strong party


----------



## afulldeck

sags said:


> Pierre may come across as a little bewildered sometimes, but I wouldn't consider him an idiot.


Your right, he is a narcissistic hypocrite.


----------



## Ukrainiandude

like_to_retire said:


> Interesting interview if someone has the time. You'll know what Maxime Bernier stands for when it's done.
> 
> Dr. Jordan B. Peterson is joined by the Honorable Maxime Bernier Sep 17, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ltr


Heard on the radio that his party apparently gained more support than expected.
Next election probably gonna vote for his party candidate.


----------



## damian13ster

Yeah. PPC is the only real winner this election.
Everything else going exactly as predicted by everyone except the idiot occupying Prime Minister's seat


----------



## Eder

4 more years of the lying twerp...forgive me if I experience the idiot differently lol.


----------



## damian13ster

Eder said:


> 4 more years of the lying twerp...forgive me if I experience the idiot differently lol.


Nah. I think NDP will finally realize they can't simply vote the same as liberal. They won't gain seats this way.
This government won't last more than 2 years. Wouldn't be surprised if NDP called election next year - assuming they manage to grow a spine in the meantime


----------



## Chrysaphius

Chrysaphius said:


> Well, I'm calling it early. *Trudeau wins another minority government.* If he loses, or wins a majority, I will come back here and eat crow.


Basically right. There ya have it. A total waste of time and money,


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Justin should have consulted with Russian government how to run an election, coincidentally, Russia voted on the same weekend. And governing party are getting overwhelming majority.
“it doesn’t matter how people vote, what is important who counts the votes”.


----------



## ian

O'Toole had an opportunity to do better than he did. His last week was terrible. He was penalized for Kenney, penalized for his stand on vaccine passports, penalized for his stand on not insisting that his candidates be vaccinated. The newspapers were full of the covid crisis in Alberta and our AWOL Premier. Right at the time when families were sending their children back to schools and worried about covid. It hit home to many voters IMHO. This was, and remains top of mind with urban votes-more so than rural voters. It is a sea of red in Toronto, on Montreal's suburbs, and in Vancouver.

His silence on Kenney and how Alberta handled covid was deafening. His other flip flop flips did not help either. Carbon tax, gun control. The Conservative day care strategy was half baked and full of holes-so parents with day care challenges told me.

O'Toole got some very bad political advice from his advisors in this last week. He should have gone full out on covid vs being incredibly wishy washy. He could not have hurt Kenney no matter what he said...Kenney's shelf life is predicted to be days, not months.


----------



## kcowan

like_to_retire said:


> Why didn't you just vote by mail?
> 
> When I went to my local mailbox, there wasn't a single person there.
> 
> ltr


In BC we already have a problem that the results are in before BC gets counted. Adding in 4 days makes it pretty irrelevant for me.


----------



## Eder

I still haven't received my or my wife's mail in ballot requested 3 weeks ago. I guess the Alberta address makes for easier lost in the mail from Ottawa.


----------



## sags

kcowan said:


> In BC we already have a problem that the results are in before BC gets counted. Adding in 4 days makes it pretty irrelevant for me.


I agree and think none of the results should be announced until 9 am. the next day.

No better yet. Announce the results at 12 midnight on election day and give everyone an Election Day holiday the next day.

Let's celebrate our democracy.


----------



## Eder

So our lone Liberal MP elected in Alberta will fit in nicely with the feds. Heres a video showing him stealing campaign literature from a random home & leaving his own,








Liberal Calgary MP allegedly caught on camera nicking opponent's flyer


Campaign manager claims newly-elected Calgary-Skyview MP George Chahal removed the flyer because it contained 'incorrect polling location'




calgarysun.com





We get what we deserve.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> So our lone Liberal MP elected in Alberta will fit in nicely with the feds. Heres a video showing him stealing campaign literature from a random home & leaving his own,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liberal Calgary MP allegedly caught on camera nicking opponent's flyer
> 
> 
> Campaign manager claims newly-elected Calgary-Skyview MP George Chahal removed the flyer because it contained 'incorrect polling location'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calgarysun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We get what we deserve.


First rule is get elected.
Doesn't matter how, the courts don't award seats in Parliment, I say if you personally, the candidate, commit election crimes, during an election you are running in, you should be disqualified.


----------



## Mechanic




----------



## Mechanic

Looks like the only votes that matter are in Ontario and Quebec anyway. What a farce.


----------



## damian13ster

Meh. Picking flyers?
Sexual assaulter just got elected.
This is Canada. Sexual assault, election crimes, corruption, and racism are fine.
If you are not for any of those things, then get out of the country


----------



## Ukrainiandude

Mechanic said:


> Looks like the only votes that matter are in Ontario and Quebec anyway. What a farce.


They should make a party list and distribute the seats according to the percentage of votes received by party. That would be more fare system.


----------



## sags

damian13ster said:


> Meh. Picking flyers?
> Sexual assaulter just got elected.
> This is Canada. Sexual assault, election crimes, corruption, and racism are fine.
> If you are not for any of those things, then get out of the country


Nobody is perfect.

The Bible teaches....let he who hath never sinned cast the first stone.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Nobody is perfect.
> 
> The Bible teaches....let he who hath never sinned cast the first stone.


Well, I can throw a stone on all of those. 
Sadly elected officials can't


----------



## sags

Well, thank goodness for Justin Trudeau and politicians then, if it gives you somebody to shout at.

Personally, I like to holler at the capitalists with their big houses and fancy cars, but everybody needs somebody sometimes.


----------



## damian13ster

So you prefer to hate successful people than sexual harassers and corrupt politicians?
Speaks volumes about the person you are


----------



## sags

Alleged....as far as I know, but maybe you have the "inside" scoop ?


----------



## ian

sags said:


> Alleged....as far as I know, but maybe you have the "inside" scoop ?


Sexual assault may get elected but it can also be appointed the Senate accompanied by a few years of sexual harassment of femalel employees, an affair with a teenage girl. All wroapped up in a package by the name of Pastor Don Meredith who Steven Harper appointed in order to assuage the feelings of his socon supporters. It took a journalist all of twenty minutes to discover that the so called DR. was not a DR. and all but one of his so called degrees came via a mail order degree mill. 

The difference...there were not alleged.






Senate to offer financial compensation to employees of former senator Meredith


Senate to offer financial compensation to employees of former senator Meredith



sencanada.ca


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Well, thank goodness for Justin Trudeau and politicians then, if it gives you somebody to shout at.


Well he is actively sewing division and trying to destroy my Country.



> Personally, I like to holler at the capitalists with their big houses and fancy cars, but everybody needs somebody sometimes.


Shouts of thanks for your high standard of living no doubt.


----------



## sags

And you can tell by the way people look ? What do you focus on......their clothing, the vehicles they drive, what they put in their grocery basket ?

Or is it as simple as they don't look like you....with white skin color ?


----------



## damian13ster

ian said:


> Sexual assault may get elected but it can also be appointed the Senate accompanied by a few years of sexual harassment of femalel employees, an affair with a teenage girl. All wroapped up in a package by the name of Pastor Don Meredith who Steven Harper appointed in order to assuage the feelings of his socon supporters. It took a journalist all of twenty minutes to discover that the so called DR. was not a DR. and all but one of his so called degrees came via a mail order degree mill.
> 
> The difference...there were not alleged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Senate to offer financial compensation to employees of former senator Meredith
> 
> 
> Senate to offer financial compensation to employees of former senator Meredith
> 
> 
> 
> sencanada.ca


Two wrongs don't make a right


----------



## ian

damian13ster said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right


The difference is that one is only an allegation.


----------



## MrMatt

damian13ster said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right


But one wrong can get you elected!


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-skyview-george-chahal-jag-sahota-election-northeast-1.6185688


----------



## sags

Still only an allegation, and I don't know what you expect Trudeau to do about it.

All he can and should do is wait for the results of an investigation and then boot the MP from caucus if need be.

One day you are griping about Trudeau's "alleged" interference in the SNC Lavalin case and another day you want him to put handcuffs on an MP.

Not very consistent. Relax and let the system work.


----------



## damian13ster

How about not cover it up in 2019?
Think not covering up sexual assault allegations and letting the accuser testify wouldn't be too much of a hurdle to clear.

Liberals are fine with corruption and sexual assault though. 
Why wouldn't they be. Penalty for corruption for Prime Minister is 200$ fine.
Sexual assault allegations can be covered up and they still get you elected.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> One day you are griping about Trudeau's "alleged" interference in the SNC Lavalin case and another day you want him to put handcuffs on an MP.


It wasn't "alleged", there was interference.
The fact that Trudeau killed the investigation doesn't mean it didn't happen.



> Not very consistent. Relax and let the system work.


There is a Liberal MP, who just confessed to illegally removing his opponents election materials.
He was elected, Trudeau hasn't kicked him out.

Face it, the Liberals only care about power.


----------



## Money172375

Mechanic said:


> View attachment 22196


Seems to reflect the population distribution. The “east” has about 65% of the country’s people. The colour coding of risings on the Election broadcasts does a poor service of showing where the votes are.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Seems to reflect the population distribution. *The “east” has about 65% of the country’s people.* The colour coding of risings on the Election broadcasts does a poor service of showing where the votes are.


 ... majority rules. And it's impossible for that graph to detail "where the votes are". I'm not sure if there is an overall graph that breaks it down to the municipal level without having to actually go to the municipal papers. E.g. TO Star


----------



## sags

Elections Canada said they received complaints from the MP's campaign about false poll location information being distributed. There were complaints from others as well.

Elections Canada is investigating who was distributing the wrong information.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Elections Canada said they received complaints from the MP's campaign about false poll location information being distributed. There were complaints from others as well.
> 
> Elections Canada is investigating who was distributing the wrong information.


Then go after whoever put out false poll location.

But the reality is they just elected someone who violated election laws. They should resign immediately, and Trudeau MUST kick them out and show that interfering with elections is not acceptable.

Or is interfering with elections like interfering with criminal cases, it's okay if it's for a good reason.


----------



## Eder

Once a thief always a thief.
But I understand those that are Liberal would not deem it a big deal since its one of their own.
I'm sure plenty of our Conservative MP's have huge faults as well...(I know one personally that shouldn't be allowed outdoors much less be an MP)
But the thing is as these behaviors become apparent disciplinary action needs to be taken to at least give an appearance of justice. 
Of course then JT would have lost his job long ago.


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## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Once a thief always a thief.


We have one member of the new Liberal government, who was elected after confessing to committing election crimes caught on Camera.

If Trudeau is okay with that, what other shennanigans is he okay with?


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## sags

Interesting conversation on Peter Mansbridge podcast about what the next election could look like and the issues that likely "won't" be part of it.

The Liberals are likely to entrench programs discussed in this election by the time the next election is held, and no party will dare to change them.

If this is Trudeau's last election, as it well might be, it is likely he will want to build a legacy in his last term, so there may be some big new initiatives coming.

A Liberal / NDP coalition government can do anything they want. I am thinking that a Guaranteed Basic Income will part of it as it is favored by the Liberals, NDP and most importantly, the likely future Liberal leader.......Chrystia Freeland.

Trudeau will then move on as an Ambassador to anywhere in the world he wants, or will receive a lifetime appointment to the Senate.

I expect the 2022 budget will be the roadmap for Canada's future.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> The Liberals are likely to entrench programs discussed in this election by the time the next election is held, and no party will dare to change them.


The Liberals can try to entrench their record of criminal and unethical behaviour all they want, I'm pretty sure the other parties will try to change it.

Most of the country voted against the Liberals, the Liberals DID actively commit crimes to steal the election.
All we need is a credible opposition to get these scumbags out of there.

And yes, as long as they let people committing electoral crimes remain in their party, they're all guilty of supporting him.


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## sags

O"Toole wanted to repeal the gun laws and change the carbon tax and he didn't do so good.


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## sags

It is up to Elections Canada to decide, and if necessary Trudeau can boot the MP out of the caucus, but he can't force the guy to resign.

That is up to the people.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> O"Toole wanted to repeal the gun laws and change the carbon tax and he didn't do so good.


No he didn't propose repealing the gun laws.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> It is up to Elections Canada to decide, and if necessary Trudeau can boot the MP out of the caucus, but he can't force the guy to resign.
> 
> That is up to the people.


The fact that days later, Trudeau hasn't kicked him out of caucus tells us all we need to know about Liberal ethics.

He's already confessed, and shows no remorse over what he did.


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## sags

Elections Canada is investigating.

The anti- "crooked" Trudeau rhetoric is wearing thin with voters. It failed in 2019 and 2021. Is the plan to run the same old playbook again ?

Perhaps Conservatives should take a lesson from reality.

Jane Philpott lost her re-election in 2019. JWR wrote a vengence book and dropped it just before the election and it made no impact. It hasn't sold well at all and the publisher dropped radio interviews and author tours. Within a couple of weeks It is already in the "discounted" book bin and free on Audible.

The Conservatives lost seats in all the major urban areas.....Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and Edmonton.

Bottom line........people heard it all before and made their own judgements on who they trust and who they don't.

it is time for Conservatives to move on and catch up to the rest of Canada.


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## sags

Despite all the Conservative rhetoric about the timing of the election, it was very useful in one sense.

Jody Wilson Raybould was only 29 days short from qualifying for a full pension of $8,000 a month for life at age 65.....bad planning on her part.

(She did force taxpayers to pay her full salary while she did nothing, sat at home and wrote her book.)

Too bad........so sad. What is it they say about revenge being sweet ? The Liberals won the seat back and Trudeau is smiling inside.


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## sags

FFS.........Meng reached a deferred prosecution deal with the US.

Canada's AG (Jody Wilson-Raybould) gets taken for a sucker by Trump and she refuses to give a solid Canadian company the same deal.

Talk about irony.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/meng-wanzhou-us-court-1.6188093


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> The anti- "crooked" Trudeau rhetoric is wearing thin with voters. It failed in 2019 and 2021. Is the plan to run the same old playbook again ?


What you seem to miss is that for most Canadians, not breaking laws is a baseline requirement. We really don't understand how anyone can commit so many crimes, and support the commission of further crimes, yet think they're somehow entitled to run the country.



> Bottom line........people heard it all before and made their own judgements on who they trust and who they don't.


Yeah, and people bought William Hung CDs. Sometimes people are wrong.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> FFS.........Meng reached a deferred prosecution deal with the US, the same kind of deal that JWR refused to consider for SNC Lavalin.


Because a deferred prosecution wasn't an option in the SNC Lavalin case.
It's almost like you don't understand Canada has laws.

No wonder you don't consider interfering with an election a big deal.


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## sags

The DPA was an option in the SNC Lavalin case. JWR refused to consider it. That is what the whole "lobbying" effort by PM and the PMO was about.

JWR was also the AG who had Meng arrested at the behest of Trump.....without informing PM Trudeau. That led to the arrest of the 2 Michaels.

Face it......appointing her was Trudeau's mistake. Supporting her lies is Conservatives mistake.

But enough of her. She is gone and soon forgotten. Now we want our 2 Michaels back asap.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> The DPA was an option in the SNC Lavalin case.


No it wasn't



> JWR refused to consider it.


She did consider it, it wasn't applicable to the situation.



> That is what the whole "lobbying" effort by PM and the PMO was about.


Pressuring the AG to enter into a DPA, when that option wasn't legally possible was the whole problem.



> JWR was also the AG who had Meng arrested at the behest of Trump.....without informing PM Trudeau. That led to the arrest of the 2 Michaels.


The US supplied a legal request, which was fulfilled in compliance with the relevant treaty.
You don't have to ask the PM if you want to comply with a legal obligation. You just comply with the legal obligation.
The reason the AG is separate is specifically to avoid political interference from the PMO, you're literally arguing the opposite.



> Face it......appointing her was Trudeau's mistake. Supporting her lies is Conservatives mistake.


Yes, appointing her was Trudeaus mistake. Interesting that you keep citing the things she did right, rather than those she did wrong though.
At least we agree she was a horrible AG, for completely different reasons.
You think she was bad because of the things she did right, I think she was bad because of her failure to act in the best interests of Canadians in other cases.

Supporting what lies?
Did you read any of the reports? any of the legal opinions?


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## sags

The 2 Michaels are on their way home.

Trudeau must have known about this during the election and couldn't say anything, even while being attacked by the opposition.


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