# Former Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty (aka I won't raise your taxes).....new thread



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Just heard the police are finally involved. Seems he and his staff were involved in coverup. Of course, this does not begin to bring him to account for nearly bankrupting the province.

2003: "I won't raise your taxes"

TOU, eco fee, health care premium and left the province with record amounts of debt and deficit. What a great record of fiscal corruption and mismanagement. The police will have fun with this one.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

> TOU, eco fee, health care premium and left the province with record amounts of debt and deficit. What a great record of fiscal corruption and mismanagement. The police will have fun with this one.


Non sequitur? The police are not investigating any of these things.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

McGuinty inherited a mess from Harris.

McGuinty failed to rectify the spending problems, even after raising taxes.

McGuinty..............Fail...........as did the PC government of Harris/Eves before him.

The NDP under Bob Rae were vilified for "Rae Days"...........so they tried and got the boot by voters for their efforts.

Voters say they want the government to address the problems.................but they really don't if it involves any sacrifice in their own lives.

All we can do is try to figure out who will do "the least" damage and vote for them.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

It is true that (unfortunately) the OPP cannot do anything about the McGuinty administration's tax policy and fiscal mismanagement.
The voters of Ontario have to look in the mirror for that.

The gas plant email deletion is indeed outrageous, but it is not a crime, therefore I doubt what the OPP can do about that.
Far more serious scams/scandals have come and gone...e-Health, Orgne Air Ambulance, the lies about the 2010 wage contracts, and no action has been taken.

What _would_ be a crime, if the OPP can indeed find those emails, is if there are actual emails proving that McGuinty was aware of the true costs of the cancelation.
That would prove he lied to the inquiry commission last month.

What was that theory...ah yes, Occam's Razor...that would indicate the Premier must have known about such a significant waste of tax payer dollars.
The minions in his staff cannot keep such material information from him.

I have no doubt that must be the reason those emails were deleted.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Is that just a trolling attempt?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Interfering with investigation by law enforcement is what this boils down to. If he had nothing to hide why was he deleting those emails? Incriminating evidence, perhaps?

Also, the election results have nothing to do with a stupid/radical electorate but moreso the concept of vote banks such as the teachers, police and numerous other groups on the gravy train. With the goodies he doled out to those groups it's no wonder they kept voting him in.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> 1. The gas plant email deletion is indeed outrageous, but it is not a crime.....
> 2. I have no doubt that must be the reason those emails were deleted.


1. It wasn't illegal to have removed electronic records like that?
2. NO DOUBT!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. It wasn't illegal to have removed electronic records like that?


There is some grey area here.
It is _illegal_, but it seems there are no _penalties_ for it.
At least that is what the Privacy Commissioner Ann Cavoukian said -

_despite breaking the Archives and Recordkeeping Act and “undermining” freedom-of-information legislation, the scofflaws will not face penalties because there are none, said Cavoukian._

http://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...deleted_emails_privacy_commissioner_says.html

It sounds like this a law with no teeth.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

HaroldCrump said:


> There is some grey area here.
> It is _illegal_, but it seems there are no _penalties_ for it.
> *At least that is what the Privacy Commissioner Ann Cavoukian said *-
> 
> ...


 ... in which case, why do we need a Privacy Commissioner office for anyways???? :rolleyes2:


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... in which case, why do we need a Privacy Commissioner office for anyways???? :rolleyes2:


Probably sounded good as part of a party's election promises in some long forgotten election.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

LondonHomes said:


> Probably sounded good as part of a party's election promises in some long forgotten election.


+ 1.
Such as the new Financial Accountability Officer to be created in Ontario

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-n...ant-financial-accountability-office-1.1272237

This new department (no doubt to be staffed with hordes of new unionized govt. workers) is supposed to be "a spending watchdog of the government and its agencies" :rolleyes2:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So........McGuinty stepping down surrounded by scandals, is the perfect opportunity for one of the opposition parties to step up and offer a real choice?

But have they done that?

As an ex NDP supporter, I have no idea what they stand for these days. Seems that all they do is whine about what the government is doing, without offering any viable, sensible alternative policies of their own.

As to the PCs............they still have the leader who couldn't shoot straight. Hudak blew any chance he had of winning with his completely stupid rants on "prison chain gangs" and such nonsense. The PC "conservative" message has been hijacked by the loony right wing fringe. Former conservative leaders must be embarrassed by it all.

Somebody...............please step forward with a real plan for the future.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I've met Ann Cavoukian. She does good work.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't think anyone can have an issue with any of the Privacy Commissioners really............they report what they find diligently, but are given no real power and are held in contempt by the ruling governments.

They need to have some real power, with some real penalties................and we could include Provincial financial regulators in that as well.

We don't even have to go all the way to prison time, which costs too much money.

Ankle bracelets and 5 years stuck in the house.............would be sufficient for most people. If they breach the conditions...........you complete the remaining sentence in jail.

Simple and effective.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

An article summarizing McGuinty's tenure:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/11/dalton-mcguinty-breaks-his-last-political-promise

_He did show up for the budget motion vote last month, but for the rest of the session he’s been AWOL.
People were starting to ask why taxpayers were paying his salary._
...
_What a shameful way for McGuinty to go.
Here was the guy who came to power vowing to bring integrity to government.
What a disgraceful exit for a guy who was so sanctimonious.
...
McGuinty always regaled reporters with stories about the lofty ideals and high moral standards of honesty and integrity instilled in him by his mother. Wonder what she’s saying now.
I don’t know how much the eco fees are to dispose of lofty ideals and high moral standards, but I suspect they’re steep.
...
He’s left behind a stinking, toxic mess.
No amount of scrubbing can erase that stain from the Liberal brand._


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Well, the Sun was never much of a fan of McGuinty. Maybe they should stick to the sunshine girls.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

The article is correct as far as facts go.
They did neglect to mention the 2010 wage freeze white lie His Highness told to the provincial parliament.
If anything, this article is rather mild.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Much of it is subjective. Which is fine, as far as it goes.

The Sun is pretty low brow, as is the Star a lot of the time. I don't take either of them very seriously. They don't pretend to be objective. Both are overtly ideological. So, read it as spin--it's what it is.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

And now he has announced surprise resignation. Run away...

Choose Change. Vote For Kids.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Good riddance with this lying loser ... will be interesting to see how effective the new shoo-in will be ... :cold:


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> will be interesting to see how effective the new shoo-in will be


The "new shoo-in" is the "new and improved" Dalton McGuinty.

She has made "peace" with the teachers union by accepting all their demands.
She is being set up to win even more lobby groups than McGuinty did.
The ultimate goal, of course, is to use the next 2 years to grease more palms, and shoot for a majority win in 2015.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

HaroldCrump said:


> The ultimate goal, of course, is to use the next 2 years to grease more palms, and shoot for a majority win in 2015.


Will she hand out free phones? Hey, it worked elsewhere.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

How about the $1.1B squandered in those gas plant cancellations? Why isn't MCG in jail?

Interesting how this thread only has two pages while another one about Rob Ford has 15 pages. This must be the equality the lefties keep talking about.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ What would you suggest he be charged with? Do you reasonably believe he could be convicted of that charge?

We don't live in a banana republic where you can just throw people in jail because you're displeased with them.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Cancelling the gas plants didn't cost anything. It was the termination fees that Ontario got stuck with.

I would imagine when the plants were proposed and given the go ahead, the last thing they were considering was the cost of cancelling the contracts.

It was a big mistake.....a billion dollar mistake...but should be compared to building gas plants that local people are opposed to and the need was questionable.

I don't know if people who live where the proposed plants were to be located........are angry with the cancellation.

Cancellation fees are always expensive when building infrastructure.........and are not unusual.

What is unusual is the government listened to the local people and cancelled the plants.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think the annoyance is that they agreed to build the plant in communities with apparently inadequate consultation. Had they properly assessed the community opposition, maybe they would have selected another site and avoided cancellation. On the other hand, I don't think the local opposition was valid. Gas power plants are pretty clean and innocuous. It was just plain NIMBYism.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

sags said:


> the last thing they were considering was the cost of cancelling the contracts.


Perhaps they should have thought of Jean Chretien's ~$480 million penalty for cancelling the EH-101 Cormorant (helicopter) contract?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Dalton McGuinty stood there and *lied* that he did not know about the full cost of the gas plant cancelation.
In a hearing with the Ontario Standing Committee for Justice in May of this year, he sat there and *lied like a common thief*.

Then his assistants and staffers deleted all the emails and evidence related to it.

In August of 2010, he stood in the Provincial Parliament and lied that he did not know about the 4% wage increase given to the Ontario Public Service, despite a legislated ban on wage increases.

There have been many more instances.

President Bill Clinton, circa 1998 : _I did not have sexual relations with that woman_

He was impeached by the House the next day.

Premier Dalton McGuinty, circa 2013 : _I did not know the cost of gas plant cancelation_


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

But now, Dalton McGuinty is gone.........a footnote in history, with a poor legacy.

That is the same fate that is awaiting Rob Ford, in my opinion.

How much do we hear about Mike Harris anymore? He isn't held to the same esteem of Bill Davis and some other Ontario Premiers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We in London, Ontario have nothing to crow about.

Our own mayor has been charged with fraud by the RCMP, and he is facing a court trial.

By virtue of being charged with a criminal offense, our mayor now has a "criminal record".

Our mayor was swept into office at the same time as other "tax increase fighters".

With the trouble that group has found themselves involved in........maybe people should take a long, hard look at politicians who "promise" that balancing the books and cutting taxes is going to be an easy thing for them to do.

There seems to be a standard line they all use once elected......."sorry but it is worse than I thought, so maybe we won't be balancing the books after all".


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

sags said:


> But now, Dalton McGuinty is gone.........a footnote in history


Well, that _footnote _of yours is a rather expensive one - about $15 Billion expensive - just counting the current deficit, not the debt, or the coming Armageddon of taxes and fees for Ontario residents.

Anyhow, I disagree that he is a mere footnote - his resignation and replacement by Ms. Wynne is a coldly calculated move by the party leadership.
The Teachers' union had got it in for him as well.
Enter, Ms. Wynne, who purchases teachers' union peace as well as brings several key lobby group votes.

I disagree with andrewf that this is a nail in the coffin of the Wynne govt. - far from it.
Swapping McQuitty with Ms. Wynne was a strategic political move.

And oh, speaking of Billion $ scams, let us wait another couple of years while the Metrolinx boondoggle gestates and takes shape.
We can talk about it in 2016.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I guess sags won't mind if I break into his house and steal all the contents since I'll be gone....a footnote in history....by the time he returns from being out.

Still only 2 pages in this thread and 19 pages in the Ford thread. Interesting.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The scary thing is that if the Liberals implode before the next election, the NDP has a good chance of becoming government due to Hudak's deep unpopularity.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The biggest reason I'm upset with McGuinty is because he violated civil liberties during the 2010 G20 event. He insulted the law, the Charter, and Canadian values. In my opinion McGuinty damaged Canadian society in a very deep way.

I think this was really shameful. The man has a background in law but apparently doesn't understand (or give a crap) about the Charter. He used legislative trickery to use an old law out of context, basically to bring Martial Law to Toronto. He orchestrated this secretly with minimal disclosure of the process.

The police got a lot of attention for their role (and yes the police were violating the law and generally being thugs) but McGuinty made it all happen. He's the premier and he's responsible. How he escaped blame on that, I'll never figure out.

I would never trust this man, for anything.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I strongly recommend reading the Ontario ombudsman's report on the G20 and civil liberties violations

http://www.ombudsman.on.ca/Investig...in-the-Act-br---December-2010.aspx?lang=en-CA

McGuity is the reason that armed police wearing ski masks stopped me on my way to the grocery store, telling me I shouldn't be out in public and that I should stay home. Friends of mine were searched while for instance, walking home after work. *OUTRAGEOUS* -- there should be hell to pay for abusing our civil liberties and disrespecting Canadian society to this degree.

Excerpt that shows McGuinty's direct role in violating civil liberties



> Dave Vasey, a York University master’s student, had never heard of the Public
> Works Protection Actbefore 4p.m. on Thursday, June 24, 2010. In fact, it may
> have been the best-kept secret in Ontario’s legislative history, although it wasn’t a
> secret at all. The Public Works Protection Act had sat largely dormant on Ontario’s
> ...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Some questions I have

Can legislators (like McGuinty) be sued for violating the law, or are they immune to litigation?

I don't believe the Canadian Civil Liberties Association ever sued McGuinty. You think they would, right? Was McGuinty ever held to account for this serious violation of law & ethics?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mcguinty-won-t-apologize-for-secret-g20-law-1.1104256



> The Canadian Civil Liberties Association, the New Democrats and the Progressive Conservatives have all called on McGuinty to apologize for the secret law his government passed regarding police powers during the G20 weekend.
> 
> "Mr. Harper has nothing to do with Mr. McGuinty's secret G20 regulation that resulted in illegal arrests of over 1,000 people," said NDP justice critic Peter Kormos. "Mr. McGuinty should be held to account. People rely on their government to protect their civil rights, not to violate them."
> 
> "Harper didn't pass a secret G20 law, the McGuinty government did," said Opposition justice critic Garfield Dunlop.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

From older post in this thread: "McGuinty always regaled reporters with stories about the lofty ideals and high moral standards of honesty and integrity instilled in him by his mother."

Yikes

I couldn't care less about the tax issue by the way. Civil liberties issues trump minor issues in budget/taxation, any day


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

james4beach said:


> From older post in this thread: "McGuinty always regaled reporters with stories about the lofty ideals and high moral standards of honesty and integrity instilled in him by his mother."
> Yikes


The biggest cheats, frauds, liars, and confidence men have always had "lofty ideals and high moral standards of honesty and integrity".
Just like the biggest abusers and molesters are usually teachers, coaches, cops, and family friends - those in apparently trustworthy positions.

His claims of _lofty ideals and high moral standards of honesty and integrity_ just go to prove what a *two headed snake *he is.



> I couldn't care less about the tax issue by the way. Civil liberties issues trump minor issues in budget/taxation, any day


Hmm...that depends on your value system.
I don't think it is black-and-white.
The excesses and abuses in Toronto during the G20 had a lot to do with Chief Bill Blair, the powers given to him, and his general autocratic, cynical, and oppressive nature.

I think Police Chief Bill Blair should have been born at a different time and place.
He would have fit right into the Gestapo or the SS.

What you refer to as "minor issues in budget/taxation" are a violation of tax-payer confidence, an abuse of power, plain sleaze, corruption, and appropriation of public funds.
Many leaders around the world over the ages have been removed from office or voted out for far less.

The fact that he won not one, but two re-election campaigns is a testament to the callousness, apathy, and obtuseness of the Ontario voters.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I highly suspect that if you dig down into the financial mismanagement of Ontario/Hydro One over the years you will find other Premiers who presided over boondoggles that were just as large. Probably why Ontario Hydro/Hydro One is a bit of a joke in Hydro circles. Their executives and overseers have been compensated and over compensated/rewarded. for years of poor management. Just take a look at Hydro organizations to the east and to the west of Ontario. Sad but true. It has got to the point where it is now negatively impacting business and employment.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

HaroldCrump said:


> The biggest cheats, frauds, liars, and confidence men have always had "lofty ideals and high moral standards of honesty and integrity".
> Just like the biggest abusers and molesters are usually teachers, coaches, cops, and family friends - those in apparently trustworthy positions.


When you're hunting suckers/children you go where the suckers/children _are_..........you don't hunt rabbits in the middle of Lake Ontario.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wouldn't defend any politician who directly lies to the people...........as McGuinty did on numerous occasions.

Mike Harris was a terrible Premier............and has paid a price for it in his legacy. Even PCs rarely mention his name.

McGuinty, I would think, will fall into the same category. A long time Premiere with a tarnished reputation.

I will say though..............that Gerard Kennedy was given the Education portfolio and did an amazing job of turning around Ontario's failing school system. It isn't perfect........but at least the dropout and failure rates in high school are much lower than they were under the Harris Government. 

Remember that it was the Harris Government who said they wanted to create a crisis in Education...........and they did a fine job of that.

But, Kennedy wasn't the Premier............although I think Ontario would have been better off if he had been.

What I see today, is a dearth of political leaders with a combination of integrity and good common sense.

Where are the Ed Broadbent, Bill Davis, Paul Martin...........leaders of the future?

PS....I was trying to think of a PC Federal leader who was appreciated by the people....but couldn't remember....

Let's see.......Stephen Harper....nope,.....Brian Mulroney.....nope.....was Fred Stanfield popular?

PPS......curiosity got the best of me and I had to look it up.

Not counting Kim Campbell and John Turner who weren't in office long enough to matter............Joe Clark.

Everybody trusted Old Joe.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I never trusted Joe Clark.

Not from the day he announced that he intended to move the Canadian embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. 

Without bothering to engage External Affairs. 

It was a very, very stupid, politically driven decision that was ultimately reversed before it could be acted upon.

It was then that I truly realized that we had a PM who was not really PM material.

It was no wonder that his inability to count heads in the Commons or follow the very strong advice of his betters on the issue to delay the vote until the next day led to his downfall. Canada was better off for his demise as PM, IMHO.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Yep, good points except I disagree that taxation issues are minor. For this guy they were major and were in fact a cornerstone of his time in office. I think he should be sued for breaking his agreement with the CTF and in fact they tried to do that but of course their application was turned down.

I have always said that Ontario was politically the most stupid province in the entire country but being voted back in has more to do with vote banks (teachers, police, unions, govt employees etc) than the average voter on the street. It's his banks, as with wynne, that keep him in power.

Plus a lot of the remainder vote on ideology regardless of how crooked the leader and party are. Pretty scary stuff.


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## 6811 (Jan 1, 2013)

the-royal-mail said:


> I have always said that Ontario was politically the most stupid province in the entire country .


Sorry to disagree but IMHO that honour belongs to my province, Quebec.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Throw in B.C. and there's a trifecta. :chuncky:


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I guess there was a reason why I left Quebec, and then later, British Columbia.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

fraser said:


> I guess there was a reason why I left Quebec, and then later, British Columbia.


When my late wife & I returned from Saudi, and almost immediately relocated from Toronto to Salt Spring Island, almost the first individual we saw on TV was Bill Vander Zalm......our reaction was "Who the hell's _that_?".....................little did we anticipate that during our 8 1/2 years there he'd turn out to be relatively 'reliable' compared to the rest of them....and that's a stretch!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Trm, I think your sense of perspective and rationality is blinded by your hated of McGuinty. You seem to think he is a special snowflake, when really he is a typical politician. He lied, but so did Harper, Chretien, Harris, Martin, etc. Harper has even disappeared more money, including 3 billion in unaccounted expenses. I never hear you gripe about him, so I wonder about your partiality.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We were in BC for that....complete with Faye Leung, Fantasy Gardens and CIBC, Expo lands sell off, cash in briefcases being exchanged at the Westin Bayshore (similar to Mulroney), all the way through to Glen Clark, the fudgit budget, fast ferries, renovation to the Clarks Vancouver and Okanogan homes, the lot.

And who could forget Nanaimo Bingogate when it was discovered that Dave Stupich et al had apparently been stealing money over a period of years from charity bingos in order fund NDP party activities. Or perhaps Sven Robinson's sticky fingers at the auction house when he 'borrowed' that diamond ring.

It was much better than any soap opera on TV at the time. Not really that much different from Quebec politics but certainly more entertaining. 

Except for perhaps the time that a certain sitting cabinet minister in the Levesque Government was chased out of Eatons and down the street by security guards. He was caught as he attempted to cross Dorchester (now rue Rene Levesque) with some clothing that he had shoplifted from the store. As I recall, the cabinet member claimed that he did not intend to steal the sports jacket. This was before jogging became popular so that was an excuse that could not be used.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

^

Not to forget Moe Sihota. :encouragement:


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Yes, Moe Sihota who as I recalled was suspended by the BC Bar Assoc. for six months. That is quite an accomplishment-very hard to get a suspension from that organization.


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