# Non-Fungable Tokens?



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

ok, I just heard of this thing 2 minutes ago. dont understand any of it.
and people are making millions on it.
is it the next bitcoin? how do I get in on it?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

NFTs represent unique items. They've been around for years

Think art, music, collectibles. Real world items could have an associated NFT to prove authenticity and ownership.

Vehicle registration and property deeds will probably be replaced with NFTs some day.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

LOL ... for a moment, I thought jargey3K was talking about old Toronto Transit tokens. I wonder if they're collectible 'cause I got a whole roll of those oldies (bought for mom but never got around to using).


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

art, music, collectibles I can understand...
but, da woild is gone crazy....









What's An NFT? And Why Are People Paying Millions To Buy Them?


The latest Internet hype is about a thing that doesn't really exist. Some collectors are spending millions of dollars on these digital items called nonfungible tokens, or NFTs.




www.npr.org


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

here, my grand-daughter just made this up. Its an original, and it can be YOURS..for $1 millon!


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Interesting. Virtual art. Virtual assets.

I know it's not the same thing, but it reminds me of the million-dollar homepage where someone sold 10x10 pixel blocks for $1/pixel on a homepage image of 1000x1000 pixels.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

remember, way back when.....everyone thought bitcoin was crazy?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> NFTs represent unique items. They've been around for years
> 
> Think art, music, collectibles. Real world items could have an associated NFT to prove authenticity and ownership.
> 
> Vehicle registration and property deeds will probably be replaced with NFTs some day.


And when someone loses the NFT, what happens to the asset?

Also if you buy a license to a song, does it really matter if you buy the NFT or non-NFT version?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Also if you buy a license to a song, does it really matter if you buy the NFT or non-NFT version?


It does to the artists

Spotify is horrible from the artist's perspective. NFTs would allow the artist to sell direct and could easily save the purchaser money as well

Give it 5-10 years I know it's too hard for many to see yet


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> It does to the artists
> 
> Spotify is horrible from the artist's perspective. NFTs would allow the artist to sell direct and could easily save the purchaser money as well
> 
> Give it 5-10 years I know it's too hard for many to see yet


Spotify is so horrible, most artists signed up.

How is the NFT linked mp3 better than a plain mp3 version?
I don't get the value of an NFT vs the unencumbered version.

Also where is the data actually stored? It's just a few extra bits saying that you own something.
So owning the NFT means that the person who has the audio file on their server has just agreed to send me a copy forever?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I don't get the value of an NFT vs the unencumbered version.


It took most people a decade to "get" the internet. As I say give it another 5-10 years for platforms to mature



MrMatt said:


> Also where is the data actually stored? It's just a few extra bits saying that you own something.
> So owning the NFT means that the person who has the audio file on their server has just agreed to send me a copy forever?


No. There's many ways it can be done and it's not really worth explaining here


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> LOL ... for a moment, I thought jargey3K was talking about old Toronto Transit tokens. I wonder if they're collectible 'cause I got a whole roll of those oldies (bought for mom but never got around to using).


The funny thing is that to some people, they are collectible, just like these NFT are collectible to someone (not me). If you ever go to flea markets and the like, you can see a lot of old "antiques" and collectibles.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The founder of Twitter and Square just acquired Tidal (higher quality spotify) All 3 are getting into crypto and NFTs. Coincidence?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> The founder of Twitter and Square just acquired Tidal (higher quality spotify) All 3 are getting into crypto and NFTs. Coincidence?


I actually think Jack Dorsey is one of the most aware of the big tech CEOs.
He still has massive blind spots, but watching him, he actually seems to perceive that he's not seeing something.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

this stuff is all crazy to me.... do ya think it'll all just die away, post-pandemic....as people are forced to come back...to reality, in their lives...?


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

jargey3000 said:


> remember, way back when.....everyone thought bitcoin was crazy?


Sane people still do.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Thal81 said:


> Sane people still do.


yeah, wish i had done something crazy, like buy $5000 worth, way back when I DID first hear about it!

maybe i should buy something like say, Trump's first twitter post, now!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There will have to be exchanges created that trade NFTs for all kinds of items.

Consider a movie company issuing NFTs up front to pay the budget of the movie and a profit.

The NFT holders would earn the revenues from theatres and video streaming like Netflix.

NFTs are a useful way for content creators to get paid up front and guarantee a profit.

The NFT holders take a risk the content will not return a profit in exchange for upside potential.

NFTs are basically physical tokens of proof of ownership in an underlying asset.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

When our 12 year old grandson comes around, he inevitably hints that his life would be soooo much better if only he had some digital tokens to spend on his favorite game. He could dress up his character, buy charms to get to a higher level, get some super powers........whatever.

Invariably, Papa........me, opens up the wallet and buys him some tokens. Big hugs all around......LOL

Our grandson feels the same way about buying digital tokens as I did when my dad gave me a couple packs of hockey cards or a bag or marbles.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> LOL ... for a moment, I thought jargey3K was talking about old Toronto Transit tokens. I wonder if they're collectible 'cause I got a whole roll of those oldies (bought for mom but never got around to using).


I once used a TTC token machine, and among the change, it spit out a funny looking quarter that had a lynx (bobcat) on it.

Turns out it's made of silver, a special 1967 centennial edition. It looked like this... I think it's worth $3 or so


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Good analysis of NFTs on CBC

Interesting scenarios....for art authentication of NBA video clips, art and all kinds of assets.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nft-analysis-explainer-1.5933536


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wonder if an NFT of a video clip from the NBA allows a person to license the clip's use ?

That could get interesting for anyone who shows the clip...........royalties ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> That could get interesting for anyone who shows the clip...........royalties ?


If you upload a video to youtube with copywritten content it automatically gives the ad revenue to the owner. Could eventually be something like that for the entire internet but not yet

I currently collect the ad revenue in crypto just from browsing the internet. Why everyone doesn't is just a matter of awareness.. some sub reddits also starting paying crypto for participation


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

NFTs could raise some interesting legal questions on ownership rights.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The latest Bankless podcast explains a lot of interesting implications for artists

Record labels fund new artists in exchange for ownership rights of their content. It's very predatory and exploitative. With NFTs fans can fund artists directly, own pro rata slice of their content (royalties) and gain unique access to the artist in various ways

It can also easily be sold when the artist is worth more


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> NFTs could raise some interesting legal questions on ownership rights.


Actually they raise very interesting questions on ownership.
For example, what does an NFT actually represent, where is the paper trail that the NFT actually conveys ownership of a real object.
What conditions apply to that ownership?
It's all pretty murky.

With paypal fans can fund artists directly, that's the whole concept of Patreon.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

How are the contracts written and enforced?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

agent99 said:


> How are the contracts written and enforced?


Open source code enforced by cryptography vs a piece of paper enforced by a trusted intermediary

It would be far easier to listen to the podcast than for me to type it all out

Regulation will take a long time to catch up indeed


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> With paypal fans can fund artists directly, that's the whole concept of Patreon.


Similar concept minus the 2 intermediaries.

Paypal charges insane exchange fees. I never used Patreon before


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Some proponents say the blockchain verifies "ownership" of the NFT, but then alternately claim that ownership doesn't convey the rights to reproduction or licensing of ownership.

It sounds to me that those selling the NFTs want it both ways.

An NFT sold today for $69,000,000 USD and others are selling in the milions as well.

Jack Dorsey is auctioning off an NFT of his first tweet.

It is crazy to be spending millions of dollars when not even sure of ownership rights.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are also questions being raised on who is paying the sales taxes on these sold items.

Are the exchanges responsible to collect and submit taxes to the government ? Are they taxed as assets or commodities ?

Lots of work for government lawyers and courts ahead.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> There are also questions being raised on who is paying the sales taxes on these sold items.
> 
> Are the exchanges responsible to collect and submit taxes to the government ? Are they taxed as assets or commodities ?
> 
> Lots of work for government lawyers and courts ahead.


What exchange?
There is literally no middleman, just a buyer and a seller. 





m3s said:


> Similar concept minus the 2 intermediaries.
> 
> Paypal charges insane exchange fees. I never used Patreon before


Well you could always just send them a few Bitcoin, I already tip with BAT, DOGE & LTC.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The NFTs are sold on various exchanges.

They also need to be careful what is being bought and sold on their exchange.

Ross Ulbiricht is in prison for life.........see Silk Road.









OpenSea: Buy NFTs, Crypto Collectibles, CryptoKitties, Decentraland, and more on Ethereum


A peer-to-peer marketplace for NFTs, rare digital items and crypto collectibles. Buy, sell, auction, and discover CryptoKitties, Decentraland, Gods Unchained cards, blockchain game items, and more. Over 100,000 collectibles on sale now!




opensea.io


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> Open source code enforced by cryptography vs a piece of paper enforced by a trusted intermediary
> 
> It would be far easier to listen to the podcast than for me to type it all out
> 
> Regulation will take a long time to catch up indeed


You say that, but what says "this token represents ownership of Piece of work X".
Lets say I sell the NFT referencing a work that doesn't belong to me. Do you own it? No.

I can accept ownership of the token as cryptographically secure, but not the actual asset.
Unless there is a document somewhere that assigns the ownership of that item to the holder of the token, but without that documentation proving the asset ownership is represented by the token I don't get it.

Like a car or property title says "Person X owns this asset, described in this way." But you can't simply write a deed and publish it thereby "proving" your ownership of anything. That linkage is what's missing to me.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I don't get it.


You don't sell a car or property title. The NFT just replaces the document

Look I don't think anyone fully understands how this will work but I can at least acknowledge that it is no dumber than a document with some ink squiggles and a stamp. I imagine there will still need to be a central agency for NFTs for example the DMV could replace documents with NFTs or an event organizer could issue NFTs instead of tickets with barcodes etc. Police or the event organizer could easily tell if you just make your own random NFT

It's a record with some metadata that can't be altered or forged.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> You don't sell a car or property title. The NFT just replaces the document
> 
> Look I don't think anyone fully understands how this will work but I can at least acknowledge that it is no dumber than a document with some ink squiggles and a stamp. I imagine there will still need to be a central agency for NFTs for example the DMV could replace documents with NFTs or an event organizer could issue NFTs instead of tickets with barcodes etc. Police or the event organizer could easily tell if you just make your own random NFT
> 
> It's a record with some metadata that can't be altered or forged.


That's literally my point.
The crazy thing will happen when courts transfer ownership of the asset, without the consent of the NFT holder.
The lack of a central authority will be an issue.

Also most cryptocurrencies are NFT already, which is why they're unsuitable for the task of being a currency.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

NFTs are just tokens with lots of interesting potential. The regulation would need to follow for some of these concepts to work

The majority of people have no ability to envision change. I see this over and over. People resist change and come up with a million reasons why

All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> NFTs are just tokens with lots of interesting potential. The regulation would need to follow for some of these concepts to work
> 
> The majority of people have no ability to envision change. I see this over and over. People resist change and come up with a million reasons why
> 
> All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident.


But sometimes, they're just dumb ideas.
Don't you remember the tech boom? or the 2008 debt crisis?

There are lots of dumb ideas out there. I think NFTs might be one of them.
What's the point of an NFT if you have a central authority to manage it?
Also NFTs are already regulated, by the blockchain


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I dug around the NBA Top Shots NFT website a bit and am now scratching my head even more.

I also thought these NFTs were "one of a kind" but not true. 

They are selling thousands of the same NFTs.

It is a total ripoff by the NBA and a slap in the face to their fans.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> They are selling thousands of the same NFTs.
> 
> It is a total ripoff by the NBA and a slap in the face to their fans.


Hockey cards weren't one of a kind but people collected and traded them based on scarcity and popularity I guess?

Pretty much all sports fan related purchases are a ripoff imho


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

sags said:


> I dug around the NBA Top Shots NFT website a bit and am now scratching my head even more.
> 
> I also thought these NFTs were "one of a kind" but not true.
> 
> They are selling thousands of the same NFTs.


No different than those numbered art prints. They may be limited to a production run of a few thousand, but people still pay a price for the premium of owning it.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> No different than those numbered art prints. They may be limited to a production run of a few thousand, but people still pay a price for the premium of owning it.


Actually it's not.
The print itself is identical, it doesn't even have a number. It is just the emotional "feel" of "owning"


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

A Guide to Valuing Your Limited Edition Art Print


You might wonder why some prints will sell for thousands while others only sell for a few hundred dollars. What makes some prints so much more expensive?




blog.ha.com


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In the world of collectibles money talks and BS walks.

Wealthy collectors seek only the best and they can afford to pay for it. They don't care what it cost to get the best because that is what they want.

Therefore a PSA rated GEM 10 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle rookie card may sell for $1 million dollars, while a dirty, creased, rough looking 1952 Mickey Mantle rookie card fetches $500.

The wealthy pay to own the ONLY PSA 10 rated Mickey Mantle card known to exist.

The wealthy collect the most valuable collectibles, original artworks, sports cards, vintage cars......and everyone else collects junk......and I have lots of "valuable junk" to prove it.

These NFTs are ridiculous and I doubt wealthy people are the least interested.

The guy who bought the NFT for $69 million is trying to sell 69 million "shares" in the NFT for $1 each.

So people would own 1/69,000,000th of an NFT of digital art......that they don't even own.

How nuts is that ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't spend money on hockey cards, pokemon cards or other collectibles

I'm aware that people have lots of money to spend and can see how NFTs have potential

Just boomers doing what boomers do best


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

These NFT things are just a ridiculous scam. It's just an attempt by crypto enthusiasts / pumpers to create more demand for the koins, plus, a way for people to "create" new money by doing things like what @sags describes, by re-selling shares in the NFTs.

Ridiculous. Absolutely a scam.

Anyone can start up a new NFT project. For example, I could create my own blockchain tomorrow, and recruit people into it, to create a competing blockchain. Then I could start issuing NFTs on the new blockchain. In other words, I (myself) could own anything I want. whether or not someone else already "owns" that NFT.

These are not legal contracts of ownership. Anyone can create a blockchain, so anyone can own ANYTHING.

It's a similar problem to the koins in general, which is that anyone can start up a new koin tomorrow. There is an unlimited, absolutely *endless supply* of these koins. BTC and ETH can easily be rendered irrelevant and obsolete if someone creates a better one next year.

If a new blockchain starts becoming popular next year, anyone owning Bitcoin, Ethereum, NFTs, will see the value of everything they own crash towards zero. And tech enthusiasts _jump on new bandwagons very quickly_.

Worthless garbage, because it's created out of thin air.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> How nuts is that ?


It's a scam. All these koin enthusiasts are doing is exploiting loopholes they have found in laws... which is the true innovation actually. For example. claiming ownership of something _you don't own_, and then reselling that right.

If you tried to do that with market securities, normally you would be prosecuted. But all of this is falling into a grey zone or using technical jargon to fool lawyers, who tend to be older people who *haven't quite caught on to the scam yet*.

Contract law and securities laws don't quite know what to do with these things. So the koin people are doing a bunch of things which are (in their essence) illegal and predatory, but they are getting away with it because the government & law is slow to adapt.

Some people have bought the bull**** hook, line and sinker. But that always happens with any con, and shouldn't be a surprise.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I can't argue that NFTs and crypto is bullshit.

But you know what?
I've made thousands on both...

And I can't see how that will change.
The new generation is dumb. All they care about are memes and jokes because they will never afford a house, so they gamble on crypto and GME/AMC.

If you can't see how to exploit this, you may be less intelligent than them.

Time for you to buy some BTC and ETH and jump on NBA Topshots, Nifty or maybe even OpenSea and get yourself a Thicc Pikachu.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> I can't argue that NFTs and crypto is bullshit.
> 
> But you know what?
> I've made thousands on both...
> ...


100% and the right attitude to have. . . so far crypto is good for me. 6% yields on bitcoin 10-12% on USDC/USDT with well back-backed institutions and some exposure to NFTs through the WAX blockchain. Top shots has been nuts lately. I was given $20 in credits in their marketplace and has grown to about 3k so far.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

HTF do I get in on this??


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I got air dropped tokens currently worth 6 figures USD. This was simply for participating in some projects early

Sounds as ridiculous as it is.. but if a few held all the governance to themselves then it defeats the purpose. Now that these projects are doing billions a day in volume - owning a piece of the governance has real value. It has completely changed people's lives

I don't think we've even scratched the surface. Decentralized exchanges will revolutionize how we trade


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/nft-sales-pull-over-2b-181748642.html




m3s said:


> I got air dropped tokens currently worth 6 figures USD. This was simply for participating in some projects early
> 
> Sounds as ridiculous as it is.. but if a few held all the governance to themselves then it defeats the purpose. Now that these projects are doing billions a day in volume - owning a piece of the governance has real value. It has completely changed people's lives
> 
> I don't think we've even scratched the surface. Decentralized exchanges will revolutionize how we trade


Damn. That's pretty nice. What do you use for airdrops? Is there a site which lists comprehensively any good ones rather than sporadically being informed about them, I've participated in some projects early stage and been paid in Crypto. I got a gold backed coin project that is coming unlocked(free trading) in May. Currently worth 91k Euros but liquidity is going to be a ***** to exit out of the position. 

NFT projects I like are the ones will Brands and gamification. None of the Art NFTs.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

.....wish I understood any of this!....🤓🤓🤓


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> .....wish I understood any of this!....🤓🤓🤓


It's FOMO. 
I don't think that NFT's really offer anything, other than the hope that someone else will pay more for it.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

m3s said:


> I got air dropped tokens currently worth 6 figures USD. This was simply for participating in some projects early
> 
> Sounds as ridiculous as it is.. but if a few held all the governance to themselves then it defeats the purpose. Now that these projects are doing billions a day in volume - owning a piece of the governance has real value. It has completely changed people's lives
> 
> I don't think we've even scratched the surface. Decentralized exchanges will revolutionize how we trade


Big big NFT launch upcoming, Lots of people will buy packs and flip on the marketplaces. 









Topps to Launch Official MLB NFTs in Bid to Best NBA Top Shot


The baseball card company, fresh on the heels of announcing plans to go public, is launching official MLB collectibles on the Wax blockchain later this month.




www.coindesk.com


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Fain said:


> Big big NFT launch upcoming, Lots of people will buy packs and flip on the marketplaces.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty much looks like the same old baseball trading card market. It had a bubble at one point, but then burst and now the cards are pretty much worthless with some significant exceptions.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jargey3000 said:


> .....wish I understood any of this!....🤓🤓🤓


You can't understand it, because it's (more or less) a scam. It's deliberately meant to complex and whizz-bang, because just like crypto coins in general, the "hard to understand" nature is part of the scam, or sleight of hand.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm inclined to agree, BUT...
....I'm thinking this discussion kinda reminds me of the ones we had on bitcoin a while back....
did I read somewhere today that bitcoin just reached a record high north of $60,000?.? ....


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> You can't understand it, because it's (more or less) a scam. It's deliberately meant to complex and whizz-bang, because just like crypto coins in general, the "hard to understand" nature is part of the scam, or sleight of hand.


Stick to your 1.5% GICs and your $5,000 used cars. You've already said you are sketched out by the crypto industry. Why bother comment in the threads if all you do is say scam? 

Topps, MLB, NBA, Capcom are all big companies which massive intellectual property. You think they are trying to scam people.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> Pretty much looks like the same old baseball trading card market. It had a bubble at one point, but then burst and now the cards are pretty much worthless with some significant exceptions.


Big fail on the gamification aspect but big IP and big brand following in MLB. Doesn't tick all the boxes for a successful project but ticks enough in my books.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Fain said:


> Stick to your 1.5% GICs and your $5,000 used cars. You've already said you are sketched out by the crypto industry. Why bother comment in the threads if all you do is say scam?


That's a pretty typical response from someone who has bought into these scams.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> That's a pretty typical response from someone who has bought into these scams.


If a financial advisor shows up in $5,000 gently used car as you put it and tries to sell me 1.5% 5-year GICs. I might think I can do better than the bozos financial advice. Similar to that. I choose to ignore your comments based on the breadcrumbs of info you've given about your financial circumstance.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Fain said:


> Damn. That's pretty nice. What do you use for airdrops? Is there a site which lists comprehensively any good ones rather than sporadically being informed about them


Airdrops just show up in your wallet one day. It's like a smart contract that transfers to all wallets with certain conditions. It's one way to fair launch a new token. Ideally nobody knew the conditions in advance

Youtube, reddit, podcasts, discord, telegraph etc.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Fain said:


> If a financial advisor shows up in $5,000 gently used car as you put it and tries to sell me 1.5% 5-year GICs. I might think I can do better than the bozos financial advice. Similar to that. I choose to ignore your comments based on the breadcrumbs of info you've given about your financial circumstance.


What are you talking about? What does a financial advisor's car or GICs have to do with warning signs about 'too good to be true' investment pitches in unregulated, weird securities?


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> What are you talking about? What does a financial advisor's car or GICs have to do with warning signs about 'too good to be true' investment pitches in unregulated, weird securities?


Im referring to your financial situation and how to disregard you as a source of financial criticism. You just lept onto the crypto threads with the same nonsense over and over and don't add value. 

If you don't know about a subject, why inject yourself in a conversation/thread? It's very simple. . .For Example, I don't know about Bio-tech stocks or that industry but you don't see me hijacking a bunch of forums devoted to it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Fain said:


> Im referring to your financial situation and how to disregard you as a source of financial criticism. You just lept onto the crypto threads with the same nonsense over and over and don't add value.


I think I'm the only person on this message board who has actually worked professionally in cryptography. I worked at a crypto specialist firm for several years, and also worked with (and advised) venture capitalists who fund all of this stuff. I have postgraduate degrees in computer science, with education specifically in cryptography and security.

I've worked many years in crypto, anti-fraud, and security. This is my professional field. My name can even be found on published crypto algorithm standards.

Your concern for my financial situation sounds really weird. It sounds like you are saying that I should be disregarded because I like GICs and prefer inexpensive cars. Did I understand that right? I also enjoy finding good deals on canned beans and sardines, by the way.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I think I'm the only person on this message board who has actually worked professionally in cryptography. I worked at a crypto specialist firm for several years, and also worked with (and advised) venture capitalists who fund all of this stuff. I have postgraduate degrees in computer science, with education specifically in cryptography and security.
> 
> Plus many years of work experience in cryptography. I've also worked in anti-fraud.
> 
> Your concern for my financial situation sounds like you want to get into a d*** measuring contest or something. Do you only take advice from people who have large, expensive cars?


What job did you have at a crypto firm? If any, I doubt its at the exec level, it sounds entry-level IF that. You say before that you considered a job in the crypto sector but decided against it. which seems to contradict your comments now . . You seem confused by market dynamics and regulations. For example, the bitcoin Contango trade.Then you say it's done by shady companies but when mentioned that the companies are Fully regulated, then you back off and avoid that point.

Cryptography/Computer Science/IT is grunt work. People can work the job for years without understanding big picture market dynamics of the industry. 

And yes, impressions matter. 5k used car is below the respectability level from an illustrious strategic advisor such as yourself. You can't have 1 post in another thread refer to your financial situation in dire terms and another one where you Bragg about your experience advising Venture Capitalists on deal flow. It's a dead giveaway.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Fain said:


> And yes, impressions matter. 5k used car is below the respectability level from an illustrious strategic advisor such as yourself


First of all, I'm not an advisor or salesperson. Also I find it really comical that you think the kind of car someone has determines trustworthiness.

No wonder you've fallen for the crypto con men and their bull. You've probably been watching those Youtube videos where they show their rented/leased luxury cars and flash wads of cash. Dude, it's part of the con and deception. *You're being conned*.

These are the images that crypto sales people and con men create online, through social media, to trick gullible young people. Thankfully you stumbled across me on this forum, and now know that you are being conned.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> First of all, I'm not an advisor or salesperson. Also I find it really comical that you think the kind of car someone has determines trustworthiness.
> 
> No wonder you've fallen for the crypto con men and their bull. You've probably been watching those Youtube videos where they show their rented/leased luxury cars and flash wads of cash. Dude, it's part of the con and deception. *You're being conned*.
> 
> These are the images that crypto sales people and con men create online, through social media, to trick gullible young people. Thankfully you stumbled across me on this forum, and now know that you are being conned.


Never said it was a sole determining factor but your posts in the forum show your financial situation and also on your financial knowledge/acumen. 

Again you don't have rebuttals with anything of substance. CME who's been operating for AGES is a sketchy counterparty. Gemini who's a regulated New York State custodian is conning people. Everything is fake. 

Give us something of actual substance. Even if Bloomberg replies to you and straightens out your misconceptions, I doubt you'd admit your wrong.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Fain said:


> Again you don't have rebuttals with anything of substance. CME who's been operating for AGES is a sketchy counterparty. Gemini who's a regulated New York State custodian is conning people. Everything is fake.


I'm not going to spell out all the hidden risks for you. There are plenty of hidden risks within the crypto koin markets, including NFTs, stable coins, and funding leveraged speculators (the high yield programs).

Here's some more wisdom for you: there's nothing more dangerous than overconfidence and thinking you've figured everything out.

The smart traders and speculators are constantly asking, *what could I be missing*? Did I get something wrong. And they dig and dig to figure out what hidden risks or corner cases they might be neglecting to consider.

This is what smart traders and speculators do. The smart ones doubt themselves and doubt their own strategies, constantly. It's that kind of vigilance that will keep you alert and out of trouble.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Fain said:


> What job did you have at a crypto firm? If any, I doubt its at the exec level, it sounds entry-level IF that. You say before that you considered a job in the crypto sector but decided against it. which seems to contradict your comments now . . You seem confused by market dynamics and regulations. For example, the bitcoin Contango trade.Then you say it's done by shady companies but when mentioned that the companies are Fully regulated, then you back off and avoid that point.
> 
> Cryptography/Computer Science/IT is grunt work. People can work the job for years without understanding big picture market dynamics of the industry.
> 
> And yes, impressions matter. 5k used car is below the respectability level from an illustrious strategic advisor such as yourself. You can't have 1 post in another thread refer to your financial situation in dire terms and another one where you Bragg about your experience advising Venture Capitalists on deal flow. It's a dead giveaway.


Your post seems to suggest that you think the "crypto sector" is blockchain.
Blockchain is only one area of cryptography.

That being said, without verifying credentials, I personally look at the claims as and evaluate them on their merits.

As far as saying it's regulated, so it's okay, Enron was regulated.. how'd that work out?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> As far as saying it's regulated, so it's okay, Enron was regulated.. how'd that work out?


Enron benefited from weak regulation, that they helped (lobbied) to create. In any case, the CEO of Enron was convicted on federal charges and served 12 years in federal prison. He did not "get away" with anything.

They nailed him on 35 counts of fraud, insider trading.

Regulations and laws are important because they establish a framework of what is acceptable and unacceptable (illegal) activity. When crypto koins operate in unregulated space, it's harder to hold people to account when they cheat and defraud. For example, is there such a thing as "insider trading" in crypto koins?

There's a *ton* of insider trading in crypto koins, and it's very harmful to investors. But it's not illegal.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Enron benefited from weak regulation, that they helped (lobbied) to create. In any case, the CEO of Enron was convicted on federal charges and served 12 years in federal prison. He did not "get away" with anything.
> 
> They nailed him on 35 counts of fraud, insider trading.
> 
> ...


That's my point, just being regulated doesn't mean you aren't a fraud, and definitely doesn't imply you're impervious to all the other risks.
Enron existed in a regulated environment, yet it was clearly a massive fraud.
Just because someone regulates aspects of cryptocurrency trading doesn't really give it much credibility IMO

Regarding insider trading, maybe. If all the governing data is public, ie the algorithms, and changes are voted on and agreed to publicly and in advance, is there a way to be more inside?
now if you're just the first to find an issue, does that make you an insider? Or just a better investigator?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Visa just bought a $150k cryptopunk NFT. These are paid for in ETH not Visa so makes me wonder how much ETH does Visa hodl? At least Visa is self aware and not just ignoring reality like Blockbuster did to Netflix


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429745230023208969


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Maybe somewhat off-topic, but it is interesting to observe the power of payment processors to impose their views on society. Everyone is panicked about the influence of the social platforms (Youtube, Facebook, twitter, etc.) and their ability to suppress views. Not so many people are seeing the recent change at OnlyFans (which was essentially a 95% pornographic subscription platform) to ban sexually explicit material. The reason why OnlyFans decided their only option was to nuke their business is that payment processors were leaning on them for 'morality' concerns. This is in addition to concerns about distributing potentially illegal/underage pornography (though not child sexual abuse materials, AFAIK). The site had taken measures to police their contributors and removed several, but this apparently was not enough for the payment processors. Are we comfortable that the oligopoly of Visa, Mastercard and Paypal can essentially make it impossible for most businesses to function by denying them payment processing, and solely at their own discretion?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

In other financial communities such as reddit you see the random onlyfans models seeking financial advice. Crazy how much scrutiny they face from the banks. It starts because the banks have to report for tax and money laundering prevention but they go far beyond with people in positions of power exerting their personal bias etc. Same thing happens to black people more in the past etc

I've also seen reports in the US and around the world that banks are denying transfers to/from crypto exchanges. They can understandably control things they aren't comfortable with but imo this will only speed up the banks getting blockbuster'd. All the US crypto exchanges are becoming banks themselves now. Banks suddenly aren't too big to fail anymore


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

This Canadian artist created one of the first NFT projects in 2017 that recreates an art experiment

Digital Zone of Immaterial Pictorial Sensibility
by Mitchell F Chan

Digital reproductions of Yves Klein artworks—specifically, empty digital spaces imbued with an immaterial artistic sensibility—that are then sold as an ERC-20 compliant token on the ethereum blockchain

Floor price today is 140Ξ


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Budwieser listed NFTs and changed their handle to beer.eth a few house ago

$1000 for a picture of a Bud can and looks like most are sold out already

Whatever. Just keep payin me those Eth fees ty


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

so.....how's things in the N-FT space lately...?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> so.....how's things in the N-FT space lately...?


Trading volume is still hitting all time highs. It isn't slowing up at all yet

I minted and sold a few cheap ones just for the experience. Trading pictures is completely pointless but a lot of utility uses are starting to show up. I have a few that give me additional yield and that's tangible value. They would make a lot of sense for tickets and club memberships. They will be used to unlock smart locks etc. They will represent ownership of real/digital transferable property.

A big instagram influencer sold NFTs with huge success. I don't see why that won't keep growing. People love to collect/support/follow etc


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Why buy NFTs when you can download all of them for free ?









The NFT Bay is the galaxy's most resilient NFT BitTorrent site!


You wouldn't steal a JPEG (or would you...)



thenftbay.org





_An info page on The NFT Bay – a website designed very much to look like The Pirate Bay – declares: “Did you know that a NFT is just a hyperlink to an image that’s usually hosted on Google Drive or another web 2.0 host? People are dropping millions on instructions on how to download images”.

“That’s why you can right click save-as because they are standard images”, it goes on. “The image is not stored in the blockchain. The image is not stored in the blockchain contract”.

“As web 2.0 webhosts are known to go offline”, it continues, “this handy torrent contains all of the NFTs so that future generations can study this generation’s tulip mania and collectively go ‘WTF? We destroyed our planet for THIS?!”_






Artist behind The NFT Bay says the project is a warning to potential NFT buyers | Complete Music Update







completemusicupdate.com


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## sags (May 15, 2010)




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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm still waiting till they solve the problem of ownership. The NFT is a claim to a pointer, that may or may not exist in the future, and may or not represent any sort of ownership.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

People confuse NFTs with digital pictures because they understand what a digital file is. Like how the first car was a horseless carriage because the car was too radical for most people to grasp. Even though it's pretty basic if you look at it without trying to compare to what already exists.

An NFT is just a token that is non-fungible that can be owned and transferred on a blockchain. It could be used for a million things besides visual digital files. One of the more interesting ideas is music. The music industry is working with several blockchains and protocols already. People assume this is like owning music file but it is not really. Owning a musicians NFT would have a date and serial number so you could see the minting, trading history and provenance. These can already have royalties and financial yield. The blockchain is an entirely different part that can host music protocols that are already being developed.

Most people won't be able to understand this especially if you get your information by watching actors interviews. You could basically support an artist very early the same way record labels scout talent and financially support them in exchange for owning a piece of their content in the future.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I'm still waiting till they solve the problem of ownership. The NFT is a claim to a pointer, that may or may not exist in the future, and may or not represent any sort of ownership.


It's not a pointer. That's just how the pictures are using it

Whoever minted it can assign whatever access or privilege to it. Anyone else can assign whatever privilege it. It could open doors (already done) or let you into exclusive digital or physical locations (already done) Like a new artist can whitelist anyone who holds x tokens for x access or event. The owner can prove they owned whatever token at whatever date and it came from whatever address. What that can be used for is as broad as the internet itself

This is like trying to explain the ocean to a camel in the desert or something.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> It's not a pointer. That's just how the pictures are using it
> 
> Whoever minted it can assign whatever access or privilege to it. Anyone else can assign whatever privilege it. It could open doors (already done) or let you into exclusive digital or physical locations (already done) Like a new artist can whitelist anyone who holds x tokens for x access or event. The owner can prove they owned whatever token at whatever date and it came from whatever address. What that can be used for is as broad as the internet itself
> 
> This is like trying to explain the ocean to a camel in the desert or something.


But you have to trust the issuing entity that they are who they say they are, and that they'll honour it in the future.

There is nothing stopping me from taking something I don't own, and making an NFT out of it, then selling the NFT.
NFTs today don't necessarily identify what rights you are being granted with your "ownership", and people don't seem to really care much yet.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I am basically trying explaining the earth to someone who has never been there yet in as few words as possible. It would be easier if you went an visited the earth youself.

NFTs have a policy id or fingerprint to verify. For example Kevin O'Leary loves expensive watches and wants to have NFTs for watches. Now let's say you buy a Rolex and it comes with an associated NFT. To verify the NFT is not just a fake NFT you would look at the asset id, policy id, date and provenance etc. Hard to understand I know.

Most people never verify that stuff and there are for example websites with blue checks like twitter to help those types of people not get scammed.. but the concept is that you can't spoof the real data even though yes you could make a fake NFT for a fake Rolex and sell it to dumbasses. There's always dumbasses

As far as what rights are granted nothing is legally binding today. It's all speculation on the artist. That doesn't mean that's the only way. Musicians and cars existed before the legal terms of service but I know hard to imagine for people. I'm not into buying NFTs or watches or shoes or art but people seem to like that stuff

You just have to open your mind to what it could be used for. TCP/IP is very different from YouTube. TCP/IP is just a protocol that makes it possible


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

It's basically a digital receipt/record that can't be altered because there are many decentralized cryptographically verified copies

Paper is much easier to spoof and harder to verify. It can be used for scams because people are dumb and evil and everything in between.

Again it's just a tool. It can be used in many ways. It's just a token.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Certificates of authenticity have been around for a long time.

NFTs would provide no more security or protection than a paper certificate of ownership.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Certificates of authenticity have been around for a long time.
> 
> NFTs would provide no more security or protection than a paper certificate.


Ok boomer

The supply chain has already found blockchain has many many advantages over paper records. It's much easier to fake paper records and much harder for a computer or person to verify

An NFT can be verified much faster than a signature can be investigated. Cryptography does have more security but it's not worth explaining to you yet again



sags said:


> Kevin O' Leary may have an NFT for a Rolex watch but if he sells the watch how does the buyer know it is the same watch and not a copy ?


I don't know sags it could have a serial number or something.

There are people who come up with productive solutions to problems and then there are people who just find fault in everything.

You should ask yourself which one you want to be


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> There are people who come up with productive solutions to problems and then there are people who just find fault in everything.
> 
> You should ask yourself which one you want to be


Both.

I just don't want to come up or use faulty solutions.
That's why I look at an idea and evaluate it, and determine it's pros & cons.

I think NFTs are a very interesting idea... but they still have a lot of problems.
If you can't accept that there are weaknesses in the current NFT model, how will you ever get to a better model that doesn't have those problems.

The first step is to identify problems and potential problems and address them. That's how development works.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I think NFTs are a very interesting idea... but they still have a lot of problems.
> If you can't accept that there are weaknesses in the current NFT model, how will you ever get to a better model that doesn't have those problems.


NFTs are a very basic concept and you are only criticizing how they are used today. You are criticizing the '90s websites. YouTube comes much later.

You are confusing what an NFT is. It is only a token with some metadata that can be minted on a blockchain. It can be transferred or destroyed by the owner.

Most people I think just can't envision how tools can be used because they can only see how they are used today.



MrMatt said:


> The first step is to identify problems and potential problems and address them. That's how development works.


You aren't trying to develop anything here. The first step is being done by actual developers but you haven't scratched the surface of what is already developed

There are many issues to develop but your reasons pretty basic superficial concepts that are not new. I think you are more interested in what the use case of NFTs could be.

There are as many use cases. Again an NFT is just a tool. The use cases will take much longer to develop.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> NFTs are a very basic concept and you are only criticizing how they are used today.


Yes.
That's my point, it's an interesting technology, but today it is horribly flawed.



> You are criticizing the '90s websites. YouTube comes much later.


Real was just fine in the 90's
But high bandwidth sites weren't really usable back then, but things have changed.



> You aren't trying to develop anything here.


Sure I am, I'm trying to develop a mental model for how the technology is being used today, and could be used in the future.



> There are many issues to develop but your reasons pretty basic superficial concepts that are not new. I think you are more interested in what the use case of NFTs could be.


I'm equally interested in what the future holds, and what the reality today is.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Pictures are mostly overhyped fad because people are excited to use the technology for something

I think music could be the next thing in NFTs and there are known projects being developed. That stuff take a lot of time to develop because it's a lot more complex than pictures. At the same time the bandwidth is also lacking like Real but it will also improve a lot this year.

I'm more of a tech person so I won't be speculating on NFTs. I want to process the network the NFTs run on


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## illions (Jul 27, 2021)

If anyone has 2 hours to kill, I really enjoyed watching this which gets deep into the scammy side of crypto/NFTs: 




I'm not anti NFT. I think the concept is sound. But execution has been mostly flawed by all parties out there and propped by hype. A few will, and have, made tons of money off them. Many will, and have, also lost tons, but hold on the belief that one day their NFTs will be worth multiples more than today.

My little story: I got into NBA Top Shot nearly a year ago. I am not an example of an early adopter, but over the last year I was able to turn $24 into $1363 over the months with some good/bad luck. At the beginning, it was ridiculous that you could spend $9 and sell what you bout to make a guaranteed profit immediately. It was entertainment and I had some fun buying and selling things. I've since sold everything since profits were no longer guaranteed.

Much of the NFT industry is capitalizing on trends and trying to turn a quick buck. Much of it is being propped up by hype.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

illions said:


> Much of the NFT industry is capitalizing on trends and trying to turn a quick buck. Much of it is being propped up by hype.


I don't buy lottery tickets and I never bought hockey cards etc. But lots of people do

I just run the network so if people want to pay me fees to gamble on jpgs it's a free world.

The majority of people seem to confuse the 2 as the same


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I could understand owning the NFT of a super highlight.......such as Kawaii Leonard's winning shot for the Raptors, but the problem is that the NBA retains all rights of ownership for themselves.

So basically you would pay for a video clip that is avaialble for free to everyone in the world to view, but you pay a large sum of money to get your name attached to it on a blockchain that nobody cares about.

If you could actually "own" the NFT and lease it's use for ad companies etc........it would have a lot of instrinsic value.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The difference is that people who buy vintage hockey cards for big dollars physically own the cards.

They are considered objects of art and the value is dependent on the rarity and condition of the cards.

For example it is near impossible to find a PSA 10 graded 1979 Wayne Gretzky rookie card because of the poor quality of the cardboard, printing, and cutting process at the time. There are lots of examples of lower rated Gretzky rookie cards that don't fetch big dollars.

Cards that came right out of the new packages would rate an average of a PSA 6 and then be further damaged by handling over the decades.

A pristine 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle baseball card in PSA 10 condition would be worth tens of millions of dollars due to many factors.

In 1952 Topps printed the Mantle rookie in a second series late in the year and people didn't buy many cards. They were mostly dumped into the ocean.

The combination of rarity and the extremely unlikely possibility they even printed a PSA 10 card at all..........would make finding one a huge treasure.

A lack of full ownership for NFTs is a deal breaker for most collectors.

The fact that NFTs in their current form are pristine to start with and endless numbers of pristine copies can be reproduced also questions how they have any instrinsic value at all. One is pristine and perfect, 10 are perfect, 100 are perfect, 1000 are perfect, 10,000 are perfect. They are all pristine and perfect.

It is the same problem for people buying "special insert" chase cards today. They are all new, pristine and abundant.

And then there is the fake manipulated market. The provenance of sales of NFTs are in serious question.

Are people "buying and selling" NFTs to each other to report higher sales prices and justify higher prices for their other easily produced NFTs ?

Who is checking the veracity of the "sales" reported ? The fine art world has been dealing with fakes and reproductions for decades.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We can all wonder why people pay big dollars for sports cards, NFTs, real estate, yachts, fine art, wines, jewellery and lots of things.

Maybe we just don't understand how absolutely rich some people are and how little they value money.

I watched a Youtube video about a very, very high end casino in Las Vegas that is only open to very wealthy "high rollers".

The hotel has 40 suites and costs $40,000 a day, but the high rollers get it for free.......plus any food, drink or entertainment they want.......anything.

Each suite has 7 hotel staff dedicated to providing all the comforts to the guests.

The "catch" is that the guests have to guarantee to bet $1 million a day in the casino, and mostly they are going to lose it all.

The rich lose millions of dollars and then thank the hotel and staff for a "great time".

For the wealthiest people....money no longer has any value except for bragging rights or satisfying their every whim.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

All you need to know about NFTs ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I love that guy's videos........


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> All you need to know about NFTs ...


If that's all you need to know then you basically know nothing.

It's like saying all you need to know about TCP/IP is it's a read only book of lies on a screen

NFT is not actually art. It's just what it's used for at first


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

not going away apparently...


https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/ottawa-protesters-dig-in-the-pressure-of-black-excellence-museums-embrace-nfts-asahi-baseball-and-more-1.6347442/as-museums-begin-to-embrace-nfts-they-face-new-opportunities-and-risks-1.6356987


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

NFT jpgs are just the very beginning

Snoop Dogg bought a record label that he claims will be the first NFT record label. There are several music NFT platforms being built that cut out record labels so who knows which will win but record labels are long overdue for disruption

Things like Ticketmaster where bots buy all the tickets to scalp at higher prices are also low hanging fruit for NFT disruption


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

say it ain't so Bobby.....








Bob Dylan Unmasked as Founder of New NFT Venture | Exclaim!


The times they are a-changin', and even Bob Dylan is not immune to the crypto obsession: he's been unmasked as the co-founder — alongside hi...



exclaim.ca


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

its like walking into a casino and finding a new game to gamble with.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

SmartPlaces.io is minting its first NFTs in a few hours. Normally NFT mints are completely random but this is the first the user has input to a NFT mint. Here is the map

I might try to mint one in Vancouver or NYC just to flip later because I probably won't play this. Any prime location suggestions where I should gamble my money away? Don't say Toronto.

I have a few gift NFTs now that give me access to discounts, bonus, exclusive channels etc for being an early supporter. They can be a lot more than monkey jpegs


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

m3s said:


> SmartPlaces.io is minting its first NFTs in a few hours. Normally NFT mints are completely random but this is the first the user has input to a NFT mint. Here is the map
> 
> I might try to mint one in Vancouver or NYC just to flip later because I probably won't play this. Any prime location suggestions where I should gamble my money away? Don't say Toronto.
> 
> I have a few gift NFTs now that give me access to discounts, bonus, exclusive channels etc for being an early supporter. They can be a lot more than monkey jpegs


Cali...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

They are minting the first 5000 plots today. I wanted to get Times Square or anything on Manhattan but the website just froze.

Apparently they had 62800 requests from 9000 unique users in the first minute for the 5000 NFTs. I didn't think it would be that popular already.

Edit: I think I just minted a bunch of plots surrounding Central Park. Or I got scammed.. who knows


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

m3s said:


> I think I just minted a bunch of plots surrounding Central Park. Or I got scammed.. who knows


You got scammed. But if you used "currency" that you "earned" through staking or mining fees or something -- then you scammed them first, so it's a wash, I guess.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

gardner said:


> You got scammed. But if you used "currency" that you "earned" through staking or mining fees or something -- then you scammed them first, so it's a wash, I guess.


Could be. There's lots of scams in NFTs but I like maps and this was the first metaverse project you get to mint what you want and it will use smartphone geolocations

I already sold enough of the ones I minted for more than 10x what I paid in total. The mint process was very confusing so out of 9000 unique IP requests (can't verify) only about 1800 unique wallets got the 5000 initial mint. It was mostly luck of timing because it got delayed many times due to the traffic load

If it was a scam they could have made it a lot easier to take my money for sure. It's also pretty easy to spot fake wallets similar to fake social media engagement.

Not that boomers understand any of that


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

One day you will understand the secrets unfolding before you grasshopper.

When all the world is creaking and groaning....peace and tranquility will come from a stack of GICs.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> One day you will understand the secrets unfolding before you grasshopper.
> 
> When all the world is creaking and groaning....peace and tranquility will come from your stack of GICs.
> 
> View attachment 23133


I'll start buying GICs when I'm 40. Or maybe when I'm 45 or 50 or 60 or 70. No rush man

And worst case I can live off my pension like sags


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Elon Musk used a combo of "bored ape" NFTs in his Twitter avatar. The "owner" complained to him about it.

People pointed out that an NFT only points to a link on the blockchain that points to an image on a companies computer, for as long as that company maintains the website and continues to point to the image.

A simple "right click" and a $21 million NFT is yours to use freely.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Elon Musk used a combo of "bored ape" NFTs in his Twitter avatar. The "owner" complained to him about it.
> 
> People pointed out that an NFT only points to a link on the blockchain that points to an image on a companies computer, for as long as that company maintains the website and continues to point to the image.
> 
> A simple "right click" and a $21 million NFT is yours to use freely.


Wow, so many errors.

Elon Musk apparenlty owns the various NFTs, that may or may not mean he owns the copyright to the image. It matters what the copyright owner actually licensed to him.

Your understanding of NFT is wrong.
NFT is the data on the blockchain. As far as art NFTS this is typically a pointer to the image hosted on IPFS which isn't a website, or hosted on "a companies computer". It's hosted by whomever decides to host it.

Saving the image doesn't give you any rights to use the image, and you certainly don't own it. If you use someone elses copyrighted work without permission it's a crime. 

It's becoming very clear you don't actually understand the things you're talking about.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags is basically saying someone photocopied a document therefore documents are useless meanwhile sags has never read or written a document himself

Documents can be many things. They can be scams and they can be worth a lot of money depending who created them and what they represent. To say all documents are the same would be a complete lack of understanding of what a document is.

NFT is just a token that can be transferred and represents non-fungible data on a blockchain. I could mint one right now that says anything like "sags loves NFTs" with or without copywrite on IPFS or on some central server. It can be anything

100% no understanding of what he is talking about as per usual


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Regardless if sags knows what he is saying (which he doesn't) I will still maintain that NFT's as they are right now are absolutely worthless.

It's pure trash. Tulips. Fun for the rich. Gambling.

But there is money to be made and status to show off and people do use them as PFP's and hold the ownership dearly to their hearts.

Personally, I rather have some sexy cars.
To each their own.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Regardless if sags knows what he is saying (which he doesn't) I will still maintain that NFT's as they are right now are absolutely worthless.
> 
> It's pure trash. Tulips. Fun for the rich. Gambling.
> 
> ...


I don't think so, I think the media and hyped NFT's are worthless. The other ones maybe not.

owning a bored ape NFT is IMO dumb.

Lets say you want to sell tickets to an event, but you want to allow them to be traded and resold.
You simply issue the NFT for each seat, and each person can show you that they own the ticket to that seat.

When you buy a seat, you can verify that the ticket is good and it hasn't been sold to anyone else. 
You can even make the transfer of funds contingent on the simultaneous transfer of the ticket to your wallet.

There are things that are nearly impossible to do today, but are trivial when done by blockchain technologies. 
The simplest part of blockchain is the lack of a "secure authoritative server", and most people can't even seem to grasp that. (Likely because the how is technically complex)

I'm very interested in the technology, I just don't see a valuation case yet (and still don't). 
I'm in an odd position as seeing a lot of potential, but not seeing any money/profit yet.
There is a really big difference between the technology being worthless, and the current applications not being worthwhile. 


Remember many experts didn't see the value in more than a handful of computers. The idea of everyone walking around with a supercomputer in their hand is simply inconceivable.


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## investor65 (Aug 3, 2021)

As if the plethora of hundreds of different worthless cryptos weren't bad enough, now we have NFTs.
They are today's version of tulipmania and another sign that we are in a gigantic Fed-fuelled bubble.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

investor65 said:


> As if the plethora of thousands of different types of worthless cryptos weren't bad enough, now we have NFTs.
> They are today's version of tulipmania and another sign that we are in a gigantic fed-fuelled bubble.
> If NFTs aren't a sell signal, I don't know what is.


If you specified profile-picture NFTs I would agree.

I also agree that we're in a fed-fueled bubble. That's why I sold off a lot of risky assets last fall and now have to pay more capital gains than my salary. I have NFTs that I won't sell off though because they have utility that includes bonus rates and discounts for supporting the development of certain DeFi protocols. I didn't pay anything for these NFTs they are typically earned for staking assets over a length of time and also came with 25% reward bonus (tuned out to be over 100% ROI for me)

You could buy one for $1000 today because the utility doesn't exist yet besides access to the developers in an exclusive channel. Less than 5000 of them exist and there's only about 20 for sale below $10k. Thing is to someone with 6,7,8 figures these utility NFTs will be worth more than to someone with 3,4,5 figures who could have earned it.. because the utility will be based on % of your assets deposited in the protocol. I imagine these will be worth 6 figures when the protocol and utility goes live

Another protocol is taking a different approach and whitelisting their early supporters for an NFT sale coming soon that will also have a % bonus on DeFi yield. You can only mint 1 per wallet because the 10k will absolutely sell out immediately. That protocol gave me a $10k airdrop that is now worth $20k just for joining their discord mid-2021. Some people in poor countries got that airdrop and said it was worth more than they earn in a year. All of this is so early there will be lots of opportunity. I just missed a big airdrop

There's so many scaling upgrades coming to certain blockchains this year we're basically still in the dial-up era. Not everyone has the capacity to see this


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

investor65 said:


> As if the plethora of thousands of different types of worthless cryptos weren't bad enough, now we have NFTs.
> They are today's version of tulipmania and another sign that we are in a gigantic fed-fuelled bubble.
> If NFTs aren't a sell signal, I don't know what is.


As if the plethora of thousands of different worthless stocks weren't bad enough ...

I'd say you don't know what a sell signal is, because you're looking at one specific application of NFTs and judging the entire technology worthless.

That's like saying youtube is worthless because someone posted a cat video. Or saying email is useless because you got some spam.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> because you're looking at one specific application of NFTs and judging the entire technology worthless.


In the media, press and popular culture, "NFT" means NFT of a link to a picture, video clip or sound -- usually a dumb cartoon or farting noise. These are almost universally useless. The fact that an NFT could be used for a contract, right or option or something of genuine value is a bit of a technicality. In a world where 99.99% of email is spam, the fact that a tiny percentage of email COULD be legit would not salvage the concept for an average user.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

gardner said:


> The fact that an NFT could be used for a contract, right or option or something of genuine value is a bit of a technicality. In a world where 99.99% of email is spam, the fact that a tiny percentage of email COULD be legit would not salvage the concept for an average user.


99% of people don't read or understand the documents they sign in the first place. 99% of people don't understand how the internet or car or toilet works

An NFT can be used for something as simple as a timestamp or confirmation that is immutable. Unlike a flimsy receipt that fades our or an email that can be altered by a text editor.

Some DEX use NFT to represent your liquidity. That means I can easily transfer or sell a right to funds. If only I could transfer my GICs when their rates were attractive so easily


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The high cost of data living forever on a blockchain means that an NFT is simply a link to data held on a server somewhere.

Elon Musk removed the collage of BAYC apes from his avatar. The collage was sold at auction by Sothebys Auction last September for $24 million.

Musk trolled the claims that NFT are "non-fungible" in a tweet, and he is right. Anyone can reproduce any NFT with "right click and save".

The comments regarding copyright protection for NFTs is also false. Copyright protection does NOT extend to "non human produced content".

This has been tested and confirmed by the courts.

It isn't cheaper to transact in crypto either. People paid $3,000 in "gas" fees to buy an NFT costing $275.

It appears to me that those who claim to know so much about crypto.......either cherry pick the facts or simply don't know them.









Musk changes Twitter picture in perceived 'troll' to NFT community


Elon Musk on Wednesday morning switched his Twitter profile picture to an NFT collage - before the co-head of Sotheby's digital art division asked him to take it down.




www.dailymail.co.uk













Sorry, Your NFT Is Worthless: The Copyright and Generative Art Problem for NFT Collections


If you follow Reese Witherspoon on Twitter, you may notice she has been tweeting about non-fungible tokens, or NFTs, a lot. She currently features an NFT as her Twitter profile picture (abbreviated “pfp” for those in the know).




www.ipwatchdog.com


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags it's pointless to explain anything to you because you clearly have 0 capacity to learn anything new at this point

NFTs have as much to do with copyrights as the internet has to do with phone books. It is simply an immutable data that can point to anything.

The only reason to pay high gas fees is for an immediate transaction. Which is why I enjoy earning said fees with my validators

You can also monetize your digital storage through decentralized storage services if you didn't spend it all on Chinese SUVs


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gardner said:


> In the media, press and popular culture, "NFT" means NFT of a link to a picture, video clip or sound -- usually a dumb cartoon or farting noise. These are almost universally useless. The fact that an NFT could be used for a contract, right or option or something of genuine value is a bit of a technicality. In a world where 99.99% of email is spam, the fact that a tiny percentage of email COULD be legit would not salvage the concept for an average user.


In the media, press and popular culture, "stock investing", means yelling and screaming on the floor of the NYSE, or staring at several numbers with all sorts of numbers on the screen.

The fact that you ignore 99.9% or more of the items in stock at Walmart doesn't make it irrelevant to the vast majority of their customers.

TV, Streaming, Porn, news, blogs, forums, tiktok, youtube etc, I'm not going to watch 99.9% (and add a few more 9's) of it, because it's crap not worth my time. That doesn't mean it's not useful at times.

I agree that the Signal to Noise ratio is pretty high, but that doesn't mean it's all a waste. Remember in gold mining 5grams/tonne is economically viable.

Basically your argument against NFTs seems to be.
You don't like NFTs as they're being currently portrayed and promoted. I actually agree those uses are silly.

However I think some of the OTHER uses are useful.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The high cost of data living forever on a blockchain means that an NFT is simply a link to data held on a server somewhere.


No, you're simply wrong.
It COULD be a link to data held on server, but it could be a link to offline data as well, 



> Elon Musk removed the collage of BAYC apes from his avatar. The collage was sold at auction by Sothebys Auction last September for $24 million.
> 
> Musk trolled the claims that NFT are "non-fungible" in a tweet, and he is right. Anyone can reproduce any NFT with "right click and save".


Sure, absolutely, but making a copy of my drivers license doesn't mean you now have a drivers license.



> The comments regarding copyright protection for NFTs is also false. Copyright protection does NOT extend to "non human produced content".


Again not true, you're assuming that an NFT is computer generated, this is not necessarily the case.

You're mixing a flawed understanding with what an NFT is, and a specific case under copyright law.

If you take a copyrighted work, and create an NFT with it, it has copyright protection,


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Sorry, Your NFT Is Worthless: The Copyright and Generative Art Problem for NFT Collections
> 
> 
> If you follow Reese Witherspoon on Twitter, you may notice she has been tweeting about non-fungible tokens, or NFTs, a lot. She currently features an NFT as her Twitter profile picture (abbreviated “pfp” for those in the know).
> ...


From your link
It’s worth noting that copyright protections extend to works created by humans with the assistance of computers (such as AI-powered word processors or templatized creation of works, such as drag-and-drop graphics editors); however, such protections stop when a work is the expression of a computer alone or the result of a random or process-driven expression. 

That's the key thing, if the computer is only assisting, then its' still copyrightable. The question is exactly how much assistance is required for it to be "computer generated".
I'd say somewhere between GPT-3, and a word processor with spell check.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

I ran into this, which I think is a reasonable look at "But What Are NFTs Actually?"


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I've made some serious ROI on this project during this "bear market". They now have deals with legacy publishers and authors





__





Loading…






finance.yahoo.com





Reddit NFTs that sold for $10 are now selling for $10k. I have some but haven't sold any. I have to say NFT taxes are much easier than crypto taxes. Each NFT is an individual item so I don't have to combine them all into the ACB

I have utility NFTs that have exploded in value during the bear market. They aren't liquid at large scales but good if you can just hold


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

So Trump is the first boomer to market a simpDAO by selling NFTs


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603427564034441219


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Lol yeah, saw that headline.

Trump just announced a $99 NFT and released this cartoon image of himself.



https://www.jpost.com/omg/article-724945


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Check out the "Kevin OLeary and FTX thread" also ... especially the FAQ discussions with Gothenberg83. I'm laughing my head off right now ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Lol yeah, saw that headline.
> 
> Trump just announced a $99 NFT and released this cartoon image of himself.
> 
> ...


I just right clicked and "copy image" the image and will let it go today only for $10 cash.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> I just right clicked and "copy image" the image and will let it go today only for $10 cash.


 ... hey that's a good one. But you have to abit more specific of "today" ... up to 11:59 pm December 15, 2022. Now watch m3s is puzzled by the word "cash" with "wats that"


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Man, just as I was to sign off for this pops up ... just HILARIOUS ... I'm in tears.

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/far-troll-capitol-rioter-baked-232053008.html



> *Far-right troll and Capitol rioter 'Baked Alaska' tweets that he can't believe he's 'going to jail for an nft salesman' after Trump announces digital trading card series*
> 
> _Sonam Sheth, Thu, December 15, 2022
> 
> ...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Funny how the old people read legacy news based entirely on tweets

Like they somehow turn a few of someone's tweets into legacy article length, slap some flashy viagra ads on it for boomers and call it a job well done

Who reads that stuff? Journalism is dead


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You are getting old m3s.

NFTs were big in your generation but the younger generation isn’t interested in them . 

Our 14 year old grandson doesn’t buy Roblox tokens anymore and nfts weren’t on his Christmas list.

You are now part of the “over the hill gang”…..don’t fight it…embrace it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Our 14 year old grandson doesn’t buy Roblox tokens anymore and nfts weren’t on his Christmas list.


There's maybe one kid that made a fortune creating and selling NFTs but he wasn't asking ol grampy to buy them

I don't know anything about roblox and I don't think many 14 year olds have money to put into stocks, RE, gold so why would they have money to speculate on veblen goods. Although I know some genius kids from 3rd world countries who paid their way to school in UK for example but that's not the norm.

It's not 14 year olds it's mostly people with excess money, people who have experience in the tech and finance industry


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

m3s said:


> Funny how the old people read legacy news based entirely on tweets
> 
> Like they somehow turn a few of someone's tweets into legacy article length, slap some flashy viagra ads on it for boomers and call it a job well done
> 
> Who reads that stuff? Journalism is dead


 ... since you posted right after me, I presume this post was meant for me. 

So since when were tweets journalism? Or is that a concept made up by you including journalism as being dead. If so, then no need to post further - by you. 

And I think you owe Mr. S. Sheth, the author of that article from the Independent News an apology.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> Funny how the old people read legacy news based entirely on tweets
> 
> Like they somehow turn a few of someone's tweets into legacy article length, slap some flashy viagra ads on it for boomers and call it a job well done
> 
> Who reads that stuff? Journalism is dead


The people too cheap to pay for real articles of interest?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> The people two cheap to pay for real articles of interest?


 ... you mean including this poster too (not "two" btw)? I'm an al-cheapo example:

Seeking Alpha

Only worst, to buy or not to buy I need to find out on CMF ... LMAO ...


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