# Ontario budget



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

So it looks like the Wynne gov't will be doing a heap lot of spending over the next 4 years...
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/04/23/5-things-to-expect-from-ontario-budget.html

-50 billion + on infrastructure in the GTA primarily and *130 billion across the province*

While Ontario ran a $10.9-billion deficit in 2014-15, the province says it is still on track to balance the books by 2017-18.



> There are no tax hikes in the budget other than a three cents a litre beer charge starting this November. That will increase three cents per litre per year until 2018, the equivalent of a penny a bottle hike annually. That will bring in $100 million to the province’s thirsty coffers.





> That’s higher than education, higher than on health and yet there’s no plan to deal with the debt. It’s just going up and up,” he told reporters in the budget lock-up.
> Wilson predicted the government — with debt-rating agencies breathing down its neck — will foist “future tax increases” on Ontarians.


http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...0b-infrastructure-push-in-ontario-budget.html

So..other tban the sale of some assets, Hydro One and GM stocks, where else is the money going to come from to address the 10.9 billion deficit?




> News leaked Tuesday that Ms. Wynne’s government is contemplating a partial sell-off of the provincial power distributor – maybe 10% to 15%, possibly followed by further share sales if the first one goes well. The Globe and Mail characterized the sale as “massive”, *although at an estimated $1 billion it wouldn’t even cover the cost of the two gas-fired power plants the Liberals mothballed in the midst of the 2011 election*. Reports also suggested eager investors would be climbing over one another for a piece of the action: with interest rates at rock bottom levels, who wouldn’t want a share of a giant electricity utility?



Got it.. the Premier decided to sell off some of her "jewellery" (Shares of Hydro One), to raise funds for all that infrastructure building ahead and "no new taxes at this time..don't read my lips" but oh yes, for the convenience of getting your beer in some grocery stores, you have to pay us the $1 a case beer tax raised in 25cent increments per case of 24 over 4 years. We better start drinking a lot of beer then!:biggrin:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I believe previous the Drummond report concluded that Ontario will climb out of deficit in a few years, simply through the natural growth of the economy.

That withstanding, I am not sure the report counted on such massive spending in infrastructure.

The Wynne government has committed to capping public service salaries at current levels. High school teachers are set to strike across the province.

The Sunshine List has been named as partly to blame, as one group of public employees point to another group of public employees and say they are worth more.

It is like the police associations who point at the highest salaries in the Province, or NHL hockey players who point to the highest salary for a defenseman.

Will the people of Ontario with kids in high school support the Wynne government...............or will they demand a settlement be made ?

I remember public school strikes where parents wanted to freeze teacher pay on one hand..........but didn't want their kids out of school on the other.

Having to arrange alternate daycare during school hours was the biggest complaint in media interviews with parents.

When push comes to shove, generally people with kids in schools support the teachers and people who don't have kids in school support the school board.

As to cuts to the public service in general, my son's girlfriend has been trying all day for 3 days to get through to the CRA helpline to find out why she didn't receive her child benefits. The line is constantly busy until it closes for the evening.

In general, are people willing to wait extra months to collect EI, spend days trying to get through the telephone lines at CRA, wait for hours in emergency rooms......?

Cuts to public service means less public service. There is no magical way to keep the same service with many fewer workers.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

With respect to sags' son's girlfriend, does she realize that it is the end of April, and CRA is going to be very, very busy? Would she go into the Bay on Dec. 24 to try to get a refund for something she bought a while ago but has lost the receipt and couldn't they look it up for her?

With respect to carverman's post, I think it is a good idea to reassess government assets every so often to determine if they are still needed. Reinvesting the proceeds of asset sales in new infrastructure assets makes quite a bit of sense as we have been under investing in transportation infrastructure for a long time. This threatens our economic growth, and therefore our ability to carry our debt load.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> I believe previous the Drummond report concluded that Ontario will climb out of deficit in a few years, simply through the natural growth of the economy.
> 
> That withstanding, I am not sure the report counted on such massive spending in infrastructure.
> 
> Cuts to public service means less public service. There is no magical way to keep the same service with many fewer workers.


It appears then that the bean counters in Wynne's employ have come up with a "nothing right now budget'..yes, we will try to sell off Hydro One in stages to get rid of this grossly mismanaged public purse financed albatross that should have been cleaned up years ago after they split it up..but they didn't.

Ontario still holds the "mortgage" on Hydro One , and it is going to be somewhat difficult to sell it off in chunks (up to 60% for now). No interested buyers are going to go for the deal the way Wynne is hoping without there being concessions thrown in ..and that is going to cost us consumers one way or another. No private enterprise will want to be shareholders in a business where the gov't has the final say..this is NOT going to work out for very long.

The jury is still out on whether this "Wynne fund raiser" will be beneficial to Ontario in the long run. Private enterprise will assess the infrastructure, find the true cost of upgrading it and want a better deal..either in the initial purchase..or a new tax on your hydro bill to replace the cash cow (DEBT RETIREMENT) which could be named "infrastructure upgrades"

Just think of that the gas plant cancellation fiasco and what it will cost Ontarioans in the future as costs rise..estimated 1.1 billion today..double that in 10 years time.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Davis said:


> With respect to carverman's post, I think it is a good idea to reassess government assets every so often to determine if they are still needed. Reinvesting the proceeds of asset sales in new infrastructure assets makes quite a bit of sense as we have been under investing in transportation infrastructure for a long time. This threatens our economic growth, and therefore our ability to carry our debt load.


Yes, I agree Davis..but with this massive spending (130 billion over 10 years for ALL of ONTARIO, not just the GTA), w*here is the money going to come from?*

Growth in industries?..right now they are shrinking as US based manufacturers plan to change their production locations or already have done so (Heinz/Kellogs etc etc).
Addition beer taxes?
Increased fares for transit users?
Increased gas taxes?
Increase the PST another 1 or 2%?
Increase income taxes above the poverty threshold, which should be increased as well. 

With the welfare rolls continuing to increase..there has to be money to support the welfare recipients. 

Now this OPP pension , when it goes into effect there will be additional deductions on RFT employee...1.9% for the employee and 1.9% for the employer..which is
another tax on the employer besides all the other taxes employers have to pay already.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Carverman: there is a plan to pay for infrastructure. The Budget is 372 pages long. I haven't read the whole thing, but I see in the press that it involves increased revenues from economic growth, asset sales, spending restraint especially in health care. Aside from a small beer tax, it does not include tax increases. Is it credible? You'd have to read it yourself to decide. 

Employers pass payroll taxes on to employees -- it seems to take about five years for payroll tax increases to be fully passed on to employees through lower wages. 

There was an interesting comment for perspective in this morning's Globe and Mail editorial on the budget: "Ontario is already a low-tax, low-revenue, low-spending province. Yes, really. Nobody wants to mention this, neither Liberals nor Conservatives. And in the absence of new revenue measures, keeping the deficit on a downward path from $8.5-billion this year to balance in two years, means the Liberals are committed to ratcheting down spending."


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Davis said:


> Carverman: there is a plan to pay for infrastructure. The Budget is 372 pages long. I haven't read the whole thing, but I see in the press that it involves increased revenues from economic growth, asset sales, spending restraint especially in health care. Aside from a small beer tax, it does not include tax increases. Is it credible?


Here's one revenue source already..hit the drinkers (beer tax) and the drivers (additional gas taxes) 
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/1...for-transit-ontario-advisory-panel-recommends



> There was an interesting comment for perspective in this morning's Globe and Mail editorial on the budget: "Ontario is already a low-tax, low-revenue, low-spending province. Yes, really. Nobody wants to mention this, neither Liberals nor Conservatives. And in the absence of new revenue measures, keeping the deficit on a downward path from $8.5-billion this year to balance in two years, means the Liberals are committed to ratcheting down spending."


Uh-huh...I see it as a Fiberal gov't going wild with spending. Nothing new in this budget..it was already a given when Wynne got elected by the unions.
With the "flat line" increases (1.9%)for health and education, not to mention other provinicial services, hospitals have or will be cutting staff to balance their
budgets because unlike the gov't the hospitals and school boards cannot run a deficit from year to year.
That means nursing and support staff cut in hospitals and teachers cut in the schools.

Didn't the Harris gov't "common sense revolution" budget already try this? Walkerton was a fine example.


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