# Emergency fund gold + silver, canadian coins a good idea?



## emperor

I've been thinking of putting 15K into precious metals and putting it into a safety deposit box.

I was planning to get some of the Canadian coins, around 5K gold and 10K silver. I'm going to hold onto them most of my life. The issue I have is for a 5oz coin they want 11,995. However, 5oz of gold is only worth 8,500 that seems like a pretty big markup to put it in coin form. 

Do you think it's worth it?


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## avrex

<deleted my comment because I misinterpreted the question in the opening post. my apologies.>


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## emperor

I will have a money emergency fund also (1 yr worth). Paper money has been worthless before in some places and I see no guarentee why it can't be worthless again. What I'm interested in is why is the price for these coins that much more than the price of gold? Is that just the way it works?


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## Cal

I would say to get a LOC, but if you really feel that the world could go to hell and a handbasket, then that would make no sense to you.

I would think that gas, and other commodities would be more valuable.

Solar panels would be great too.

Where did you go to buy the coins?


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## underemployedactor

Hi emporer, Is that 5 oz coin a RC mint collectible? If not, that mark up is way too big. You can buy Canadian maple leaf bullion coins available in silver and gold. I would recommend the 1 oz coins that a reputable coin shop will sell to you for anywhere from 5-10% over spot price. The maples are .9999 pure and recognized internationally and rarely at this point counterfeited. Put 2/3s of your stack in the safe deposit box, but keep 1/3 within easy reach.


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## zylon

emperor said:


> Do you think it's worth it?


Definitely not, IMO.

Numismatics & collector's coins aren't good for purposes of holding bullion.

Border Gold has one ounce gold maple leaf coin for $1,728 Cdn as I type.

The one ounce bars are $1,709 Cdn.

Plus shipping & insurance; they have about the best prices I've been able to find in Canada.

http://bordergold.com/products.php


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## uptoolate

I would also suspect that trying to pay for something with a 5 oz gold coin once we have gone to a guns and pitchforks economy is going to land you in the ground in fairly short order. The 1 oz silver maple leafs have $5 face value which is a fairly high face value to bullion value ratio and the value is low enough that you might not be quite so likely to get whacked for having a few in your pocket.


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## emperor

Thanks for the information. After reading this I decided to go smaller. Think I'll get 1 oz gold coin 1/2 oz gold coin and 200, 1oz silver coins. Ill talk to my bank about ordering the maple leafs if not Ill use that bordergold web site.


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## the-royal-mail

I think this is a bad idea. Those coins are sold in the numismatic market and there is a huge difference between the SELL price and the BUY price. It's like buying a car at a dealer and immediately selling it back. You'll lose a lot of money.

I do understand the Y2K mentality but if the sky were to fall I would think you would be better off with things like CASH, batteries, small radio, matches, lamp oil, candles, canned food, water etc. I lived through Ice Storm 98 and Blackout 03 and those were the things most in demand, not gold coins.

The average person gets ripped off when they sell gold etc. The sharks will eat you alive if you try and sell that stuff during times of crisis.

But it sounds like you have already made up your mind - is that right?


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## v_tofu

Hi Emperor,

If you are planning on investing in gold/silver, DO NOT order from the mint. Coins generally have 2 markets: Numismatic (i.e collectors) and bullion. Take a peek at www.apmex.com to see what type of gold/silver coin/bars there are. They have the widest variety known to man. I would not recommend buying from them, just because they are not the cheapest, and shipping is expensive to Canada, but browse through their selection to see what typical prices are, and what kind of bullion is common.

For Canadian suppliers, kitco and silvergoldbull are quite popular, and also make sure to check out RCM distributors, as some of them will carry bullion as well.

Goldprice is where you can find out current prices for Gold and silver. 

If you're strictly looking for Canadian products. The gold/silver maple leaf bullion coins are the ones you will be looking for. silver only comes in 1 oz variety, while gold can be hand in 1/20, 1/10, 1/4, 1/2 and 1 oz sizes. They also started reissuing 1 oz gold bars, which I think are quite nice, and come in an assayed card


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## PuckiTwo

emperor said:


> ...... After reading this I decided to go smaller. Think I'll get 1 oz gold coin 1/2 oz gold coin and 200, 1oz silver coins. Ill talk to my bank about ordering the maple leafs if not Ill use that bordergold web site.


I recommend that you buy rather 1 oz instead of 1/2 or 200, the premium is too high. Coins are definitely out for investing as you pay too high a premium. I bought bullion gold and silver (available as bars or coins, bars are often cheaper). Here are the two places where I bought ours:http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.htm and http://www.bullioncoinsandbars.com. 

Kitco,Montreal, is very professional, shipping very reasonable (don't remember but approx. $50). Sometimes a bit more expensive than J&M's Bullion Coins and Bars in Vancouver. You have to compare prices.

J&M Bullion Coins and Bars has a larger assortment in small nominations, also as bulk if you buy silver. What I find with them is that you have to phone a few times after your order has been placed but I live with it as their prices are good. Good luck. Pookieeeee.

Edit: And DON'T buy from ScotiaMocatta, they belong to Scotiabank but have outrageous prices plus outrageous shipping cost.


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## Dave

To reply to the OP, is it a good idea ? No, unless you think that the world will go to hell in a handbasket sometime in the future with the collapse of the society as we know it. Gold and silver do not pay interest or dividends, are not cashable fast, and there are additional insurance and safekeeping costs involved. That being said, if it helps you sleep at night, go for it. I am slowly buing up those assests for the sake of diversification. I like Kitco for the transactions. Buy bulion and not mint collectibles. Also, beware that 10K worth of silver will require a lot of storage. Just calculate how many coins you will get for 10K, this should give you an idea of how MANY safety deposit boxes you will need to rent from the bank, unless you have one huge burried down in your basement. Also, if you do the transaction in one go, drive to pick it up, it is quite heavy.

Dave


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## uptoolate

The spot price for silver is 31.81 USD/oz at the moment. That means 10k worth of silver is just over 300 oz or 20 lbs. This is 30 10 coin strips of silver maple leafs. These can be purchased from the above mentioned sites or directly from the Bank of Nova Scotia. These are bullion coins. Thirty strips of 10 1 oz coins are not bulky and could be carried around with not much fuss in a laptop bag or the like. What would be the point of putting them in a safe deposit box? Isn't getting into the banks going to be a concern when the end comes. I think most people could find a place in their house where something the size of shoe box isn't likely to be easily found.


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## lonewolf

Emperor

I would go with junk silver coins to barter if you want to protection from currency crisses. Iam not sure how that will work out ? the goverment could tax you to death as your coins become valuable. Some of the wealth protection so called experts say to even go one step further buy land, silver & gold in Swtzerland before a crisses & be ready to move.


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## james4beach

Dave said:


> Gold and silver do not pay interest or dividends


So? Neither do cash or bank deposits. Bonds pay you maybe 2% interest (which basically rounds to zero after taxes). Stocks offer dividends, but you take the risk of a 50% decline as seen TWICE in the last 12 years.

On the balance of things, precious metals seem like a suitable asset class to hold.

Acquiring bullion: you can simply walk into the main branch of Scotia in Toronto, go to the foreign exchange desk and buy gold bars or coins. I've done this and the prices are very good for bars; I suggest sticking to 1 oz bars (their gold coins seem very expensive). Call 416-866-4900 for quotes, and ask about the bar fees. As I recall, the net cost was around 4% premium to spot price, and even closer to spot for more than 1 oz purchase.


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## the-royal-mail

^ But what about *selling*? How does a person sell and how much do they get on the dollar when they do so? I note very few people are talking about that in this thread, just mostly how to buy. That's the easy part.


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## v_tofu

Dave said:


> To reply to the OP, is it a good idea ? No, unless you think that the world will go to hell in a handbasket sometime in the future with the collapse of the society as we know it.
> Dave


Why is it those that purchase gold/silver are considered preppers of doom/2012 doomsdayers/bunker building conspiracy theorist nuts? 

Of course what CNBC or other networks don't tell you is that China is buying record amounts of gold, Venezuela (although ran by a crazy dictator) recently repatriated its gold from the federal reserve, Germany is doing the same, and who know's what other sovereign nations want their gold back. The Swiss? Netherlands? 

So, why exactly do all these Central banks want gold for? they must be preparing for the Mayans. :tongue-new:

But I'm just some internet dude. AAPL at $700 is a good price ya? Cramer says so!


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## uptoolate

Presumably in the end of the world scenario, you are doing straight up exchanges for your gold or silver for food or services (such as protection!). If civilization manages to carry on then there is a fairly liquid market for silver with local dealers and on eBay/Kijiijji. The discount on selling looks to be minimal using the web but it of course depends on how excited people are about silver at the time you want to sell. Some of the silver i have is from the bullion desk downtown Toronto Bank of Nova Scotia but most is in fact from eBay in the days before the site became so commercial. 1 oz silver maples come in ten coin sealed strips from the RCM and aren't that likely to be faked especially if bought in the strips rather than rolls. I wouldn't trust eBay or Kijiji for gold though. 

At the end of the day, I would rather have some marketable trade than a cellar full of silver. Maybe learn how to make ammo or hooch or better yet do both!


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## james4beach

the-royal-mail said:


> ^ But what about *selling*? How does a person sell and how much do they get on the dollar when they do so?


Same places you buy it from. There are many gold dealers out there, both the banks and also private dealers. There's a bid-ask spread and you'll lose some value again when you sell it back. I recall it was something like 5% (lost) when selling back to Scotia.

Well recognized bullion instruments (e.g. bars stamped with known refiner names) can generally be traded anywhere in the world. Make sure your bar is recognized by the LBMA Good Delivery List, which is consulted worldwide.


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## PuckiTwo

Here are some comparisons:
_Gold spot _as of today, 7:30 pm: US$ 1674

_KITCO_ special promo 1 oz gold maple leaf coin (bullion!) US$ 1707 = 2% premium
Same in CAD$ (spot 1670 / Kitco 1 oz gold promo 1721) = 3% premium
(+ $50 shipping)

_J&M Vancouver_ 1 oz gold bar .999% recognized CAD$ 1707 = 2.2% premium
+ shipping, similar to Kitco)

1. Always buy .999% and always “Recognized”. Not all bullion are recognized by all dealers

2. Not everybody lives in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal. Unless you can like James4beach “drop in at Scotiabank” and get your gold I strongly advice to nvestigate first how much the shippping and administration fee is. Scotiabank charged us $ 400 on top of the premium! Not a lie! For only 5-10 oz. AND... I was advised that if I wanted to sell back to Scotia the same admin/shipping fee would apply - I call that cutthroat business. Much cheaper at Kitco or J&M. 

*TRM:* here is a sample of a buy and sell spread (source J&M): 1 oz recognized gold bar .999
Ask 1707.66 / Bid 1665.80 as of now. The spread depends very much on the dealer and on situational demand on physical metal. One can also negotiate prices!!

*Lonewolf:* Junk Silver is ok as long as it is from 1966/1967 and earlier. After that there is much less silver in the coins. Safer is to buy Canadian Common Silver 80% Pure if one didn’t want to spend money on .999 pure silver.


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## MrMatt

If it's an end of society money system has collapsed post apocolyptic world, why would anyone trade something useful for shiny pieces of metal.

If that's your fear, go build your bunker now.


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## uptoolate

Very good question Mr Matt. A better one might be why has anyone done it since the beginning of recorded human history?


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## praire_guy

Have they really done that from day one, or did the person with the weapons take what they wanted?


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## v_tofu

MrMatt said:


> If it's an end of society money system has collapsed post apocolyptic world, why would anyone trade something useful for shiny pieces of metal.
> 
> If that's your fear, go build your bunker now.


Yea, the central banks must be building a really big bunker then. CNBC sure is good at brainwashing you folks. dividends dividends dividends!


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## PuckiTwo

james4beach said:


> Acquiring bullion: As I recall, the net cost was around 4% premium to spot price, and even closer to spot for more than 1 oz purchase.


*James4beach:* I would be interested how much in fees you paid at Scotiabank. I just called and got the following information: Scotiabank charges shipping fee ($15.63 on 1 oz gold) PLUS 3% ADMINISTRATION FEE. That is on top of their quote for 1 oz gold bar today of CAD$1733.48 (spot US$1669 = premium of 3.8%) an ADDITIONAL FEE of $52.00. In my simple mind that makes a premium of around 6.5%. (I didn't calculate the difference of CAD$/USD as in this case it is miniscule. Apparently, this extra additional fee which by the way none of the other online dealers charges, is applicable whenever you buy gold bullion from Scotiabank, no matter if you pick it up personally or it gets shipped anywhere in Canada or to any Scotia branch.


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## v_tofu

PuckiTwo said:


> *James4beach:* I would be interested how much in fees you paid at Scotiabank. I just called and got the following information: Scotiabank charges shipping fee ($15.63 on 1 oz gold) PLUS 3% ADMINISTRATION FEE. That is on top of their quote for 1 oz gold bar today of CAD$1733.48 (spot US$1669 = premium of 3.8%) an ADDITIONAL FEE of $52.00. In my simple mind that makes a premium of around 6.5%. (I didn't calculate the difference of CAD$/USD as in this case it is miniscule. Apparently, this extra additional fee which by the way none of the other online dealers charges, is applicable whenever you buy gold bullion from Scotiabank, no matter if you pick it up personally or it gets shipped anywhere in Canada or to any Scotia branch.


Scotia is probably the last place you want to purchase bullion. Lots of Online retailers will sell closer to spot, sometimes with free shipping on orders over $1k. silvergoldbull and kitco are more popular ones in Canada. Many local dealers as well.


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## PuckiTwo

v_tofu said:


> Scotia is probably the last place you want to purchase bullion.


Exactly, that's what I wrote in an earlier post upthread and I think it is important that people visiting this site have all the information necessary when investing, no matter if in precious metal or other investments.


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## humble_pie

lol this thread is its own best caricature ! if u wanted to write a dialogue about ants feverishly preparing for the end of the ant heap it would go like this thread !

couple of picturesque details on here:

- some folks are fantasizing that the civilized world will collapse ... bunkers ... gun-toters paying for food & water w gold coins ... no power grid ... no army ... rifles ... ammunition ... chaos ... but EBay plus internet will somehow be up & running so they think buyers will be sweetly purchasing & paying for their stored gold coins & bars via PayPal ...

- i don't know why but the image of james4beach strolling out of scotia mocatta in downtown toronto hefting his bundle of gold bars really tickles the funny bone ...


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## james4beach

PuckiTwo said:


> *James4beach:* I would be interested how much in fees you paid at Scotiabank. I just called and got the following information: Scotiabank charges shipping fee ($15.63 on 1 oz gold) PLUS ...


I should have clarified, I purchased gold from them only when I was physically in Toronto so I could go in person to their downtown location. This is a special desk and is different than the in-branch gold ordering. You're basically going directly to the vault (which is below the building) at that location only, Scotia Plaza.

Here is the total cost if you did this today. 1 oz bar costs you = 1682 USD + $14 bar premium + $5 commission = 1701 USD total. Versus the spot 1670 USD, this is a total fee of 31 USD or 2% premium to spot.

Which is really a great price, plus assurance the bar is of good quality. But you have to go in person.


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## underemployedactor

Just an FYI to the OP, the consensus among stackers seems to be to go with 1/4 ounce gold as this is thought to be the most useful size for general transactions in a post fiat currency world. Higher premium unless one buys junk like sovereigns or US 2 1/2s.


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## PuckiTwo

underemployedactor said:


> .... the consensus among stackers seems to be to go with 1/4 ounce gold.....


1 oz gold Canadian Maple Leaf CAD$ 1725
1/2 oz gold Canadian Maple Leaf CAD$ 899 x 2 = $1798
1/4 oz gold Canadian Maple Leaf CAD$ 458 x 4 = $1832 Source: bullionscoinsandbars.com

The cost on these tiny denominations are horrendous. Assuming you watch your cost with ETFs/MFs why not do the same with precious metal. Also, each piece comes sealed in a little envelope which is not supposed to be opened for damage control. The OP will need a BEEG safety deposit box to store all that stuff.

BTW, I see different reasons for holding PMs rather than for a post fiat money world. Diversification, christmas presents:encouragement:, who knows what.


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## Rusty O'Toole

I have about 10% of my net worth in precious metals. I don't regard this as an investment so much as insurance against disasters. However, from an investment standpoint it has done very well for me over the past few years.

I buy from my local Royal Bank branch. They sell it to me for the London Gold Fix price plus $40 an ounce plus a $15 shipping charge to deliver it to the bank. This is a good deal.

Also, if I ever want to sell, they will buy it back with no assay as long as it is bars or coins they sell.

One thing that struck me as odd. On coins they charge sales tax, on bars no sales tax. It seems to me it should be the reverse as coins are money, bars are not.


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## v_tofu

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I buy from my local Royal Bank branch. They sell it to me for the London Gold Fix price plus $40 an ounce plus a $15 shipping charge to deliver it to the bank. This is a good deal.
> .


I'm assuming this is gold? that is a pretty good price. Is it something that you had to inquire about or do all RBC's have something like this in place?


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## PuckiTwo

Rusty O'Toole said:


> One thing that struck me as odd. On coins they charge sales tax, on bars no sales tax. It seems to me it should be the reverse as coins are money, bars are not.


Depends what coins you bought. Coins which are seen as "Collectibles" are taxable. Coins which are seen as bullion are non taxable. And bars are not taxable either. P.


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## zylon

> Emergency fund gold + silver, canadian coins a good idea?


While I think that having gold & silver as a way to hold cash is a good idea, I wouldn't say that they're a good idea for an emergency fund; especially if one doesn't know how to convert the metal into whatever it is you're going to need in an emergency.

I don't know anyone who plans on chewing & ingesting a $20 polymer note, and yet it's seen as a good thing to have when the lights go out. Why is that?

*Never in Canada, you say? Okay then, carry on ...*










https://wealthcycles.com/blog/2013/02/08/venezuela-devalues-almost-47-too-late-for-many


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## Rusty O'Toole

v_tofu said:


> I'm assuming this is gold? that is a pretty good price. Is it something that you had to inquire about or do all RBC's have something like this in place?


I just went into my local small town RBC branch and talked to the manager. So far as I know, this is the same deal they offer from coast to coast. At the time, about 3 years ago, they had never ordered gold or silver for a customer before. Since then, they have had a few more customers. I have some gold, some silver.

First I tried the Scotia bank but they wanted a ridiculous price. Other banks had no idea what I was talking about.

Suggest you talk to your local branch manager. It may take 2 or 3 days for them to get the information but it is a routine transaction for the bank, even if your local branch has not done it before.

Details may vary, the last time I bought PM's was about 2 years ago.

They don't sell collectible coins just new ones from the Canadian Mint, and bars from well known firms like Johnson Mathey.


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## v_tofu

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I just went into my local small town RBC branch and talked to the manager. So far as I know, this is the same deal they offer from coast to coast. At the time, about 3 years ago, they had never ordered gold or silver for a customer before. Since then, they have had a few more customers. I have some gold, some silver.
> 
> First I tried the Scotia bank but they wanted a ridiculous price. Other banks had no idea what I was talking about.
> 
> Suggest you talk to your local branch manager. It may take 2 or 3 days for them to get the information but it is a routine transaction for the bank, even if your local branch has not done it before.
> 
> Details may vary, the last time I bought PM's was about 2 years ago.
> 
> They don't sell collectible coins just new ones from the Canadian Mint, and bars from well known firms like Johnson Mathey.


Thanks for that info. I'll check it out.

Just to be sure I understand you correctly, you paid the spot price+ $40 +$15 for a one oz gold maple/bar? That's pretty close to my coin store prices, but he's a 40 min round trip.


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## Rusty O'Toole

At the time their price for gold bars was the 10 am London Gold Fix price + $40 per ounce + a $15 delivery charge for whatever amount you bought. I was buying 10 or 20 ounces at a time of gold, and monster boxes (1000 ounces) of silver coins, delivery charge $15 a time.

I forget the cost of silver but it was not a large premium.

Gold coins were also available but more expensive. I would have preferred coins but bought bars because they were cheaper. I have a few coins which I bought privately.

This info may be out of date, call your local bank and make an appointment, tell them what you want to do so they can be prepared. In my case it was a matter of signing an order form, waiting 3 days, and the gold (or silver) was at the bank for me to pick up. The first time I paid on delivery, after that they wanted payment up front. Your details may vary.

They also told me they would buy back the gold or silver at the London Gold Fix price without an assay fee if the bars were ones they sold.


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## emperor

So is this good deal? http://www.jaxville.com/products.html That is a local store, he says that they use Kitco quotes for spot. What ever that means. Don't understand what any of this means actually.


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## bayview

You can check out this fairly new gold trading/storage platform. For the convenience there is of course a fee. 

http://www.hardassetsalliance.com/

In the link u can download the ActionKit for FAQs etc.


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## zylon

I checked with local RBC.
Their quote for one ounce gold bar is very similar to bordergold.com (about $40 over spot).
commission $10.50/oz
shipping $7/oz


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## emperor

The one I'm looking at is better then? For a 1 ounce bar it's $40 over spot.. That's it. What exactly does spot mean btw?


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## zylon

> In finance, a spot contract, spot transaction, or simply spot, is a contract of buying or selling a commodity, security or currency for settlement (payment and delivery) on the spot date, which is normally two business days after the trade date. The settlement price (or rate) is called spot price (or spot rate). A spot contract is in contrast with a forward contract or futures contract where contract terms are agreed now but delivery and payment will occur at a future date.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spot_gold


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## v_tofu

emperor said:


> The one I'm looking at is better then? For a 1 ounce bar it's $40 over spot.. That's it. What exactly does spot mean btw?


Spot is essentially the price its currently trading at. www.goldprice.org is a place to keep track of it.

For a one oz bar I would say that is a fair deal. Some people like coins over bars due to their recognizability, and harder to fake.

check out apmex.com. they're a dealer. I woudln't buy from them, but its a good place to just look and get a scope of what products are out there. Also good place to note the price of different items.


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## emperor

Done, bought 2 1kg silver coins, 100 1 ounce canadian silver coins and 1 ounce canadian gold coin. Cost me close to 7,400. Might get more after my tax return.


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## emperor

Got a good deal on my 1kg coins. Bought them for spot +2 an ounce .. cost me 1040 for each 1 kg coins, bought 6 of them


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## v_tofu

emperor said:


> Got a good deal on my 1kg coins. Bought them for spot +2 an ounce .. cost me 1040 for each 1 kg coins, bought 6 of them


Sweet! Which 1kg coins? I'm guessing perth mint kooks or lunar series? Kitco?


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## emperor

Yup 2012 perth year of the dragon. I got 100 ounces of silver maples also but they where 4 over spot. And 1 ounce gold maple 51 over spot.


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## PuckiTwo

Gold going down, spot at US$1617. I may buy some if it hits 1500 territory.


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## Hobotrader

I bought my bullion initially from Scotia. They're probably the most expensive I've bought from but they'll buy it back from you with a 40 dollar spread provided you still have the paperwork. There are other ways of owning gold. Since I pay for remote storage for other items it's not a big deal to store metals there but you will need a safety deposit box or a private vault (you never want this **** in your house - unless you keep quiet about it lol). 

I don't know why everyone bashes gold and make fun of the fact that people are apocalyptic. People forget that it has been money for human history prior to 1971 lol. Even if you want to look at it pragmatically, it has performed almost 20% per year for the past decade (except 2011-2012) beating out almost every other asset class. 

How you own gold is determined how paranoid you are. If you're a pragmatist and believe that is going to perform well you can buy ETFs like the GLD. If you're too paranoid and believe in the GLD isn't audited properly and it doesn't actually have the gold it claims it has then you can go for Sprott Physical Trust like PHY.U on the TSX or the Central Fund of Canada if you want to add silver to the mix (CEF.A on the TSX). If you're paranoid that one day the government is going to come in and nationalize the trusts and that "if you don't hold it, you don't own it", then you can get physical from the big banks, www.kitco.com , www.silvergoldbull.com , www.apmex.com . If you're paranoid about government keeping records (whether taxation of confiscation potential (it did happen in 1934 USA)), then don't buy from a big bank (though you run the risk of finding a reliable buyer).

Just remember to buy bullion and not numismatic collectible coins. The more boring and more reputable the mint/refiner, the better. I prefer Johnson Matthey's or Royal Canadian Mint products. If you're curious as to what constitutes a reputable brand: 

http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/index.cfm?page_id=147

I would read a book called "Currency Wars" by James Rickards, he makes a great case for owning gold. As someone that trades FOREX (I suck mind you) there has been a VERY VISIBLE currency war going on since 2010. It's almost impossible to do a carry trade now cuz every central bank is toilet-papering their money. Your best chance for an interest rate is Australia/New Zealand, AUD is 3% I believe, we are 1%...everyone else...lol. The reason why stock markets have been going up (16% last year) along with your gas and grocery bill is because Big Ben is printing $84 billion dollars a month. In this environment I would want to own gold to hedge monetary risk though you don't need to go balls to the wall. Modern financial planners (ones that didn't see a crash) suggest 5%. The legal maximum before regulators clamp down on your *** is 5-10%. James Rickards / Peter Schiff (the man who predicted the 2008 crash and bought gold since 2000) would suggest 10-25%. 

People laughed at Ron Paul's portfolio, but what they failed to realize is that he made triple digit gains over the past decade, which is far more than the S&P's low double digit gain since 2000. I do like Bernstein's quote though "This portfolio is a half-step away from a cellar-full of canned goods and nine-millimeter rounds"

http://blogs.wsj.com/totalreturn/2011/12/21/the-ron-paul-portfolio/?mod=e2tw


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## PuckiTwo

^^^ Thks for the comprehensive post.


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## Dave

Amen to that post Hobotrader. I could not have said it any better.

Dave


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## zylon

*Gold priced in Canadian dollars*

I set up this simple table to illustrate the folly of trying to time gold purchases/sales when priced in $C. If the C$ falls or rises at the same rate as gold priced in $US moves, the relationship stays the same. One needs to decide how many ounces s/he wants, go ahead and buy.

*$C 1,592 is approx where we closed today Feb 20/13*









This ties in nicely with Peter Hodson's advice in his article "_Five Stock Market Phrases You Should Never Utter_".

Snip:


> “*I Will Wait For a Pullback In The Market*”: This phrase sounds good, because who wants to pay full value? Isn’t it better to get something cheaper? Well, yes, but (a) How do you tell a ‘pullback’ from a bear market? And (b) how long will you wait to buy—and miss out on gains—if you find we are actually in a bull market? You see, you can mess this market-timing thing up on both sides. ...
> 
> http://www.5iresearch.ca/blog/donotsaythesethingsever


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## The Dude

*was distove*

this is a great time to buy physical gold and silver IMO


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## Hobotrader

Guess there really isn't a way to do fundamental analysis on gold beyond looking at speculative and commercial positions on the Commitment of Traders Report. It seems to me that gold is in a bearish parallel channel that definitely goes into the low 1400s area though I see really really significant support at the 1520-1550 area, long wicks. I'm thinking this is just central bank accumulation (gold is a growing part of the balance sheet) while prices is just ranging between 1550-1800. I can't see this thing failing given the fundamental backdrop, but right now people are getting out of safehavens and going back into stocks, Europe is 'fixed' lol (we've heard that before). You just need a bearish catalyst. I would pick some up now (in fact I picked up silver only cuz I can no longer afford gold). I did get some gold using CFD derivatives at the 1570 level...CFD's is another way to profit off the move or at least hedge your positions. I pay 4 dollars collateral for an ounce of gold using CFD market, the interest rate is 3 cents a day (Thanks you Bernanke!). Though since the collateral is so low, it makes it way too easy to leverage and you don't actually have a claim on anything physical meaning that you can easily be Corzined. I think gold is something you just accumulate over time - most of my networth is gold but for the regular person its best to have some diversification into it (10-25%) for huge gains or systemic risk...bonds don't really pay you interest anyway now lol. Given central bank policy I think stocks/gold are probably the best bet now (though I'd be cautious of stocks at this point in time b/c its near 2007 highs on US S&P (I know nothing about Canada) and the VIX was at 15 year lows just a few days ago (don't fight the Fed right?).


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## Mockingbird

emperor said:


> I've been thinking of putting 15K into precious metals and putting it into a safety deposit box.


Just be careful with what you put into a "safety deposit box". :rolleyes2:

Here's one example of the terms of service from TD.
"You will not store in the box currency or legal tender of any country or jurisdiction, nor use the box for any purpose other than the storage of valuable papers and property which do not conflict with any laws, rules or regulations regarding fires or health or which are, in our absolute opinion, a danger or nuisance."

The Mint does state that their bullion coins are recognized as legal tender.

MB


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## swoop_ds

I'm in the process of doing this. I took ~$2200 of my emergency fund ordered a 1 ounce RCM Gold Maple leaf coin and then the rest as silver maple leaf coins. I plan to put the gold coin and half of the silver in the safety deposit box and then keep the rest of the silver in my home. There won't be enough silver at home that it would be the end of the world if it was stolen/etc but enough that I have some on hand if needed.

The rest of the emergeny fund is divied up as follows:
Some is in my chequing account to make it a 'no fee' account (I forget what the account is called, but it's TDs highest fee chequing account)
We have about ~$1000 in cash in a jar
We have a LOC for ~$15000 (but this also serves other purposes than just emergency, although we rarely use it)

The benefit of the chequing account is that I also get a free safety deposit box so it makes the bullion storage cheaper.

In regards to Mockingbird's post above, the bank isn't supposed to know what you have in your box. Whenever I access it, I'm in a little private room where no one can see me.

Also, I think keeping some money in bullion also helps if you're the kind of person who tends to 'dig into' your emergency fund to buy things. The fact that you have to go get the bullion, and then sell it, makes it take longer and makes it less liquid. This lowered liquidity is why I don't think one should have 100% of their emergency fund in bullion or anything that isn't very liquid,


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## Rusty O'Toole

I vaguely recall that somewhere the Old Testament recommends to invest your money 1/3 in gold, 1/3 in land and 1/3 in business (stocks?).

Not bad portfolio advice. Does this ring a bell with anyone?


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## emperor

I bought around 20-25K of gold and silver when I created this post. It was around the time Europe bankers were going into peoples savings and stealing their money so I thought I'd be good but of course about a month later gold and silver had it's largest drop in 30 years for some reason. My bank doesn't look what you have in your safety deposit either.


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## underemployedactor

Also, Maple Leafs and other Mint products are referred to as Non circulating Legal Tender, so not sure if these would run afoul of deposit box rules against holding "legal tender". One could always argue these are collectibles, I suppose.


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## MrMatt

If society collapses, what makes you think the safety deposit box is secure?
What use is a chunk of gold?


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## swoop_ds

If society collapses I'm screwed anyways. I personally don't believe that gold will be that useful after societal collapse. My emergency fund isn't for tha sort of mega emergency. It's more for personal emergencies (job loss, disability, etc)


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## underemployedactor

I think there are lots of valid reasons for holding gold, but I certainly wouldn't put short term emergency fund among them. The buy sell premiums are too high and the spot prices can swing wildly. Personal emergency funds I would think would be much better held in good old cash.


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## dogcom

Both gold and silver are good to hold incase of a fiat collapse of some kind which is a certainty. The only problem is when not if and the when can take some time so physical gold and silver is good to be held as insurance. The way central banks are printing tell us that a crisis could come at any time so it would be a good idea to get some insurance while the price is down.


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## MoreMiles

Isn't stock already an ownership of business? It's as "physical" as gold.

If you own enough shares of TD Bank, it's the same as if you are the owner of that branch. You can touch the furniture, computer equipment, and say to yourself.... hah, I own these.


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## dogcom

in gold and silver we are talking about another form of currency. Stocks could do very badly if the system of liquidity shuts down along with bail-ins. The east knows they need something to back them up when the US dollar and the Euro runs into trouble through a loss in confidence and so on.


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## alingva

Quite interesting set of different infographics about gold/silver/platinum etc including cost of production
http://moneyinside.ca/blog/finance/the_gold_series_(4_parts)_b-26.html
http://moneyinside.ca/blog/finance/all_the_gold_ever_minedvisualized_in_bullion_bars_b-15.html
http://moneyinside.ca/blog/finance/what_is_the_cost_of_mining_goldʔ_b-23.html


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## swoop_ds

Thanks for that alingva.

It's funny when you think about how useless gold actually is, how important it has been over the centuries.


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## alingva

Aristotle defined five reasons why gold is money.. A good form of money must be: divisible,durable,consistent, convenient, and have value in and of itself.


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## Janus

dogcom said:


> Both gold and silver are good to hold incase of a fiat collapse of some kind which is a certainty. The only problem is when not if and the when can take some time so physical gold and silver is good to be held as insurance. The way central banks are printing tell us that a crisis could come at any time so it would be a good idea to get some insurance while the price is down.


Interesting. Do you have a money diary I can follow?


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## alingva

Janus said:


> Interesting. Do you have a money diary I can follow?


 Read Currency Wars: The Making of the Next Global Crisis by James Rickards. I agree that it will not collapse tomorrow but the situation is dire, we never had so much debt and the only solution is to print and print


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## swoop_ds

Here's what Ron Swanson thinks about all this:
(PS. these are under 30 seconds funny clips from YouTube...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3_9zK4y-Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i77E3WxgX-c


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## Janus

swoop_ds said:


> Here's what Ron Swanson thinks about all this:
> (PS. these are under 30 seconds funny clips from YouTube...)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3_9zK4y-Q
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i77E3WxgX-c


Haha spot on.

"I'm actually not sure how much money I have. But I do know how many *pounds* of money I have."


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