# CRA is ridiculous!



## gibor365

My son for a first time filled out taxes online (under my supervison ). Now CRA sent him letter that his expenses: - tuition, rent and books/education amounts are under review. Give me a break! $9,500 for 2 semesters is suspisious?! $1,650 rent is suspisious?! Or books/education amounts that anyway calculated as per CRA formula!
My son told me that practically all his friends student got similar letters! I overheard my son conversation with their friends.... they are pissed off that CRA ALREADY targeting them!
All tuitions amount is at T2202A (I belive that sent electronically from every university...).... what CRA cannot check it without bugging people?!
And if my son always lived in Mississauga and learn in Waterloo, isn't it ovisous that he rents room?!

CRA need serious cuts! Looks like they are nothing to do!

P.S. Why not to introduce law, that if all docs in order, CRA should pay fine for bugging people?!


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## Davis

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


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## gibor365

Davis said:


> Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


Very intelligent reply! :stupid: Thank you for your input :biggrin:


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## Davis

It seemed to be the only suitable response to your dyspeptic, rambling post. If you've got the receipts, you send copies. End of story. If you don't have the receipts, watch out. Audit programs involve both targeted audits and random audits to support compliance. Send in your receipts and take a pill.


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## Moneytoo

damn, and i thought sags' wish already came true... 



sags said:


> If we could only be like 6 year olds....................


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## gibor365

Davis said:


> It seemed to be the only suitable response.


tham don't bother to response... Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee?! :stupid: 
post you BS in "against war" thread ... or just submit complain to moderator....you are the best in it


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## Plugging Along

I am not sure what the big deal is. If you have the recipes send them in, if you don't, then they be every right to audit. A lot of these audits are triggered by logarithms that detect large changes. 

My spouses income varies from year to year and that changes often which one of claim childcare. Our childcare deduction as a couple stays pretty much the same, but if the person didn't claim it the year before and now has a bigger deduction, then we gets asked for receipts.

Take this as a good lesson for your son that he knows that he has to keep good records and this should be a relatively easy review.


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## Davis

gibor said:


> tham don't bother to response... Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee?! :stupid:
> post you BS in "against war" thread ... or just submit complain to moderator....you are the best in it


How likely do you think it is that I will follow instructions you give me?


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## tenoclock

Tuition expenses are almost always queried unless you file a paper return and attach the T2202A along with it preemptively (which I used to do). Large medical expenses and childcare also almost get queried, so do foreign income tax credit claims and claiming employment expenses.


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## fraser

I have been audited twice-both times for car expenses. CRA has requested hard copy documents on at least two occasions. We have re-filed and been re-assessed six or seven times. Never an issue, CRA was always reasonable.

Submitting documents is the price that we have to pay for self reporting. If CRA did not do spot checks or projects everyone would be under reporting income and over reporting expenses. This is one reason what Greece is in such a bad financial state.

Send them the backup documents. Let CRA do their job.


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## gibor365

> Tuition expenses are almost always queried unless you file a paper return and attach the T2202A


 This is the question, why?! If T2202A got sent electronically to CRA, why do they request copy from my son?!



> I have been audited twice-both times for car expenses.


 but this is different... I'm talking about T -form, it would be insane if they start reviewing T3s or T5s or RRSP contributions.


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## atrp2biz

gibor said:


> This is the question, why?! If T2202A got sent electronically to CRA, why do they request copy from my son?!


There's no SIN associated with this form.


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## gibor365

atrp2biz said:


> There's no SIN associated with this form.


Than why SIN is not included on this form?! Wouldn't it be much cheaper for everyone, include CRA?! On the other hand, there is still Name and address in T2202A. I doubt there are many people who has same first/last name and address


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## Moneytoo

Oops it's good that I didn't reply that we've never been audited: came home, there's a letter for my husband, guess what, he is also "the chosen one"! lol

Trying to figure out if I or Turbotax made a mistake (don't remember specifically claiming a "caregiver amount" last year - even though his parents live with us and a few years ago were "claimable"...)


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## atrp2biz

Why are you yelling?

-there's no reason for an educational institution to have a SIN.
-credits are transferable
-there are probably many students w/o SINs


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## gibor365

Moneytoo said:


> Trying to figure out if I or Turbotax made a mistake (don't remember specifically claiming a "caregiver amount" last year - even though his parents live with us and a few years ago were "claimable"...)


Why do you tell "mistake"?! If parent was born 1949 or earlier and has income less than 20K and lived with you, you can claim "caregiver amount"....
What proof CRA wants ?! CRA has all those data, DOB income etc of your parents.... btw, how can you prove if they live in your house?!


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## gibor365

> Why are you yelling?


 Who?! Me?! I was extremely calm. You didn't see me yelling . And I bet you are "true Canadian" 



> -there's no reason for an educational institution to have a SIN.


 there is reason for CRA that SIN will be on this form


> -credits are transferable


 So what?! What to do with SIN?!


> -there are probably many students w/o SINs


 there are probably no students w/o SIN .... everyone in Canada has one


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## OurBigFatWallet

the main reason CRA looks at tuition is because they dont get a copy of the slips. I know this because I've had this situation for a few clients and even I was audited when I was in school so I called and asked point blank why. At the time I didn't have hardly any income so I thought it was weird they would be interested in my return but that is when they explained they dont get the tuition sips


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## gibor365

> the main reason CRA looks at tuition is because they dont get a copy of the slips.


 really?! It's very surprising! I just don't understand why they don't :frown:


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## Davis

As always, Gibor has answers for everything, and everyone else must be stupid or incompetent. It is so easy to tell someone else how to do their jobs when you don't know anything about what they do. 

CRA has been administering income tax for 98 years now. They really do know more that you about how to do it.


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## Davis

atrp2biz said:


> Why are you yelling?


Coincidentally, there's a guy on the street outside my building who is also yelling about communism and taxes. And also aliens, if I understand him correctly.


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## MrMatt

gibor said:


> Than why SIN is not included on this form?! Wouldn't it be much cheaper for everyone, include CRA?! On the other hand, there is still Name and address in T2202A. I doubt there are many people who has same first/last name and address


Yes there is, it's on the Institution row, to the left of the Student ID number.
It isn't an identified block, but that's how UW fills them out.

They often spot check a few forms, it's no big deal. Just send in a copy, back in the days of paper returns you sent it all in, now it's just a select few forms.


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## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> Why do you tell "mistake"?! If parent was born 1949 or earlier and has income less than 20K and lived with you, you can claim "caregiver amount"....


Well the "amount reviewed" is 9K+ which seemed huge, but we only received 2K back, so no, no mistake, Turbotax is smarter than me (I have no recollection of claiming it... )



> What proof CRA wants ?! CRA has all those data, DOB income etc of your parents.... btw, how can you prove if they live in your house?!


Yeah, they wanted printed Schedule 5 (that has names, relationships and DOBs, but no SINs) and then separately SINs, date since living with us and net incomes (since I do everybody's taxes, it was easy to copy this info ) No proof was requested that we all live under the same roof, but they can come and check anytime :biggrin:

I agree that SINs can be easily added to Schedule 5 itself and the rest verified based on SINs, but we all need to feed our families, so if this "auditing" keeps someone employed (and us careful) - I'm not gonna worry about it


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## Causalien

Looks like our government is running out of money and is coming down hard on anyone in order to get money. The # of time I've had to submit documents + pay some last minute tax is 4 this year compared to none for the 10 years before.

One particular area they are looking to tax is the tax by installment (for year 2015) if your amount owed is over $3000 last year. I have a business owner friend who have 3700 owed last year and got the letter requesting to pay by installment with a 1 week notice. I am luckier than him cause at least I get 2 weeks. 

Their argument is that your accountant should've warned you that this is coming. 

This basicaly nullifies the form to "not pay tax at income source" that you filled out so you can pay tax as a lump sum next year in April. 

So what this did is that in the span of 6 months. (April to September), you are forced to come up with 1.5 year worth of taxes. My guess is as time goes by, we are going to see more complains about this.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Installment payments are painful. I don't think the rules or requirements have changed though so you must have just been unfortunate in meeting the requirement criteria this year


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## Causalien

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Installment payments are painful. I don't think the rules or requirements have changed though so you must have just been unfortunate in meeting the requirement criteria this year


no it hasn't changed.
But selective enforcement has changnd to mandatory enforcement I think


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## gardner

Causalien said:


> One particular area they are looking to tax is the tax by installment (for year 2015) if your amount owed is over $3000 last year.


I've gotten this every couple of years -- "Based on our records you MAY have to make instalment payments in the XXXX tax year or subsequent years." I believe that if they decide you SHALL make instalment payments, they bill you particular amounts.

My "CRA is stoopid" story is from this year. I filed a T1 ADJ form, with 2014 filled in, a letter explaining what was going on, stating 2014 tax year in 4 places and a cheque for the amount. Later comes an assessment back acknowledging the change and billing me for the amount I'd already sent them by cheque, plus interest. I checked the bank records and got a copy of the cheque back and they'd cashed it alright. So when I got them on the phone to ask WTF, they tell me that since I did not write the tax year ON THE CHEQUE, they applied it as an instalment to 2015 automatically. Evidently they LITERALLY cash the check without even reading what it is attached to, before, in a separate department, working out the accounting and, perhaps, reconciling that with the payment.


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## gibor365

> Just send in a copy


 That what my son did... more difficult was to get letter from the rent , as my son rented apartment together with 3 other students...



> I agree that SINs can be easily added to Schedule 5 itself and the rest verified based on SINs, but we all need to feed our families, so if this "auditing" keeps someone employed


 ha ha... you are reading my mind 



> Looks like our government is running out of money and is coming down hard on anyone in order to get money.


 you 2


> No proof was requested that we all live under the same roof, but they can come and check anytime


 This is actually a tricky part.... If for example you parent lived with you half year and other half year lived in warmer country, are you eligible to claim "caregiver amount" or not?! There is no clear definition of it on CRA website


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## AltaRed

Re: the OP. I agee with others that this is a rather standard request (not an audit) of CRA regarding tuition deductions. An audit is a very different and thorough matter...combination of lobotomy and colonoscopy. At least a couple of times in the past 20 years, I've had letter requests from CRA requesting tuition deduction documentation. (transferred from my sons).

There is no reason whatsoever for the OP to be upset with CRA. At most, it is a minor annoyance and if one is looking for a silver lining, I am glad they are doing spot checks on this sort of thing to keep 'real slimeballs' honest. IMO, there is already way too much tax fraud/evasion going on and CRA is understaffed to do the right job.


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## gibor365

> There is no reason whatsoever for the OP to be upset with CRA


 My son is upset with CRA much more than me  I somehow used to CRA idioticy 




> My "CRA is stoopid" story is from this year


 Mine from several years ago, when CRA deposited rather big amount of money on my account, as I don't check it every day and to reach them by phone is not always easy, I talked to CRA person maybe 3 weeks after.... She checked and said that it was paid me by mistake and requested to pay back. I paid and .... in the month end accessed my account. Was very surprised that now they want me to pay penalty and interest on amount they deposited on my account by mistake.... It took me more than month and 4-5 calls and hours on the phone until they removed those charges....:stupid:


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## tkirk62

It's quite easy to get a receipt for rent from a landlord. I did this in Waterloo and you simply ask, they hand you a piece of paper saying you pay $500 per month. Or that you paid $2000 in rent for the year of 2015. And receipts for books are as easy as anything else. 

I had to submit all my receipts all four years of university. It isn't a big deal. Otherwise it would be easy for your son or someone else to claim they paid $4000 in rent over 4 months and paid $5000 for books. You want them to just take every university student at their word because their income is low?


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## Causalien

CRA is overstaffed in my opinion with too many people diddling their finger and too many redundant positions.

For example, another special assessment I had to deal with about the US tax I paid. There were 3 different department sending me the same request.

I found out it's 3 because after I submitted my papers twice with different departments, I got a promise of everything is Ok. Then a 3rd letter came, I almost throw it away because I took the 2nd department's word for it.

Then with a nagging fear at the back of my mind saying government is stupid, I chased down the 3rd department. and to my horror, learned that the first two department is legally not able to resolve this for me. Then as a middle finger to everything, The 3rd department cannot receive evidence electronically. Of course the 2nd department didn't do jack and did not call me on the number I left behind on this, resulting in another 2 months wait.

So after all this, on the 7th months that I prepaid the "assessment", they finally gave me back my money.


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## gibor365

> someone else to claim they paid $4000 in rent over 4 months and paid $5000 for books.


 It depends on amount , as imho $1500 for 4 months is very reasonable , you cannot claim $5000 or any other amount for books! CRA has formula that includes Tuition fee and number of month, both numbers on T2202A.



> CRA is overstaffed in my opinion with too many people diddling their finger and too many redundant positions.


 exactly ! and it's about time that Harper will do cuts.
Even better, have a flat tax and 80% of CRA can be laid off 
btw, I've read what are their salaries from their official link... I was surprised how big they (salaries) are ...


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## fraser

Really...at the end of the day is this such a big deal? I think not.

Simply send along the receipts that the requested and that will be the end of it. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.


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## gibor365

> Really...at the end of the day is this such a big deal?


 At the end - not, but during - yes 
In any case, my son submitted t2202A and rental letter online lat week, he called today and they confirmed that received docs....now it will take 3-4 weeks for "the king" (CRA) to review and give the verdict.

btw, is there stats how much annually taxpayers spend on "people servants" (CRA)?


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## james4beach

I really can't criticize the CRA. They have been pretty reasonable in my experience including during my years filing self-employment income.

I had moving expenses audited a few years ago, and I simply provided the documents. They quickly confirmed it all, no hassle at all.

Currently CRA is reviewing my file / seeking details on my US income and foreign tax credit. I scanned and uploaded the documents through their web site (very nice interface). I later phoned, and the helpful agent in Newfoundland quickly found my details and answered my questions. Now I'm waiting to see the results.

If you want perspective on how great our Canada Revenue Agency and its employees are, talk to anyone who has dealt with IRS complications. Our tax code is simpler, our agency is better organized, our employees are friendlier and overall our system is way more efficient. For any CRA employees reading this: thanks for your ongoing hard work and good public service. Myself and many others appreciate your good work.


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## Causalien

james4beach said:


> I really can't criticize the CRA. They have been pretty reasonable in my experience including during my years filing self-employment income.
> 
> I had moving expenses audited a few years ago, and I simply provided the documents. They quickly confirmed it all, no hassle at all.
> 
> Currently CRA is reviewing my file / seeking details on my US income and foreign tax credit. I scanned and uploaded the documents through their web site (very nice interface). I later phoned, and the helpful agent in Newfoundland quickly found my details and answered my questions. Now I'm waiting to see the results.
> 
> If you want perspective on how great our Canada Revenue Agency and its employees are, talk to anyone who has dealt with IRS complications. Our tax code is simpler, our agency is better organized, our employees are friendlier and overall our system is way more efficient. For any CRA employees reading this: thanks for your ongoing hard work and good public service. Myself and many others appreciate your good work.


You are comparing us to one of the worst tax system in the world that is uncle sam. First evidence I present. You cannot open bank account in any other country because of uncle sam.

Having lived in several, ours needs severe updating. Our online interface is at least 10 years behind.

For example, tried to pay my installment payment for September online on their website, there's no option to pay the september installment.

If I was out of the country, I'd be screwed.


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## james4beach

OK that's a good point. I can believe that the US tax system might be the worst in the world, so that's a pretty low bar - agreed.

Out of curiosity, which other countries are you comparing to?


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## Causalien

james4beach said:


> OK that's a good point. I can believe that the US tax system might be the worst in the world, so that's a pretty low bar - agreed.
> 
> Out of curiosity, which other countries are you comparing to?


I won't pinpoint the exact country because I'd rather not reveal my ID nowadays. But two countries in Northern Europe. One in southern Hemisphere. One in Asia and one I have not lived in but am glad to comment on. Estonia.

Their investment taxing scheme is the most reasonable and headache free for its residents. Estonia and Andorra are two of my considerations because I am sick and tired of dealing with how complicated it is to file for invest/trading taxes.


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## gibor365

> Estonia and Andorra are two of my considerations


 Sure, both have flat tax system


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## Causalien

gibor said:


> Sure, both have flat tax system


Yeah that helps. But the other features are more attractive. 

Some features of some of my other countries. A hardware card/thumb print reader you can take with you to identify you as a citizen anywhere in the world. not to mention an online tax portal better than what we have in Canada to be used with it. This was out 10 years ago.

no need to file taxes. All your stuff is electronically linked so government send you a tax owing/refund. The only time you have to file papers is when you want to contest something.


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## Eclectic12

Plugging Along said:


> I am not sure what the big deal is. If you have the recipes send them in, if you don't, then they be every right to audit. A lot of these audits are triggered by logarithms that detect large changes ...


They must be using the same algorithm as the same thing happened when I went to university several decades ago. Though I recall the letter requesting receipts for the parts I was supposed to have on file instead of a review.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12

Davis said:


> As always, Gibor has answers for everything ...
> CRA has been administering income tax for 98 years now. They really do know more that you about how to do it.


Jumping to conclusions about what CRA has transferred to it automatically does not mean that CRA can't work with the gov't to mandate a better system, more automatic method. 

I'm pretty sure there's plenty of computer power on both ends to make this an automatic transfer.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12

Causalien said:


> Looks like our government is running out of money and is coming down hard on anyone in order to get money. The # of time I've had to submit documents + pay some last minute tax is 4 this year compared to none for the 10 years before.


Whereas I was asked for receipts when I started University decades ago, when I filed my first tax return, when the CRA keying clerk wiped out RRSP contribution room resulting in an over-contribution and nothing from the last seven years.

Without some objective numbers - there's no way to know who has been selected by the computer and what's been mandated for something so general. High value TFSA accounts as well as foreign tax havens, on the other hand - have been reported in the media as being a mandated priority.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12

AltaRed said:


> ... There is no reason whatsoever for the OP to be upset with CRA. At most, it is a minor annoyance and if one is looking for a silver lining, I am glad they are doing spot checks on this sort of thing to keep 'real slimeballs' honest.
> 
> IMO, there is already way too much tax fraud/evasion going on and CRA is understaffed to do the right job.


I'm off mixed reaction ... on one hand, I wouldn't want to waste the energy on over-reacting. On the other hand, with this day & age of computers - surely a way to help CRA go after the tax fraud/evasion is for them/the Finance dept. to mandate automatic transfers to cut down on the donkey work for both them plus the tax payer.


Cheers


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## humble_pie

fraser said:


> You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.




exactly, life for this big baby is one never-ending tantrum & he keeps running to Mama CMF Forum to solve his problems


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## Davis

Eclectic12 said:


> Jumping to conclusions about what CRA has transferred to it automatically does not mean that CRA can't work with the gov't to mandate a better system, more automatic method. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of computer power on both ends to make this an automatic transfer.


CRA, like every government department, has limited resources, especially during this era of fiscal restraint. It is easy to say, "just get some computer power and a few programmers and there you go", but it is a lot more difficult than that when dealing with millions of tax records, hundreds of post-secondary institutions, dozens of tax software providers, and the testing to make sure that you don't screw up the whole system. 

If you look at how far e-filing and net filing have come in recent years, it demonstrates that CRA is motivated to streamline and improve processes. And that maybe things are more difficult and costly to do than arm-chair tax administration experts like Gibor might think.


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## martinv

Received a letter from CRA a few days ago for a medical expense review.
At first it appeared a bit daunting, but once I found all my information and started working on it, it really wasn't all that onerous.
With E filing, you don't send in any receipts, so no wonder they ask for more info when submitting a large claim for medical expenses.
Made one call to CRA for further clarification and spoke with a real person within 1 minute.
So far, so good. Will see once they receive the info from me and review it.


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## gibor365

> no need to file taxes. All your stuff is electronically linked so government send you a tax owing/refund. The only time you have to file papers is when you want to contest something.


 I noticed that if I say that something in Israel better than in Canada, some CMFers get "high blood pressure" , but the same system in Israel, everything was linked electronically ao from 1990 to 1999 I never filled any taxes (and no one did), except for business owners. Actually , I contacted Israeli CRA-analog only once,... new immigrants have huge tax credits for first several years, if person serves in IDF , those credits are extended. Somehow mine didn't , so I called them and it took 5 min to extend my credits...
btw, I'm not sure what is sitation now, but up to 1999 we all interests from deposits were tax free , tax on capital gains on stock market were introduced only in mod 90's, not sure about dividends...


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## fraser

Absolutely agree.

These might be very good reasons to move to Isreal. You would elimate the huge CRA issue that appears to have cast a cloud over your life.


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## gibor365

> move to Isreal


 fraser, I didn't expect from you to distort country name, like some radical-muslims are doing :upset:

P.S. and did you thing for a second that things can be impoved in Canada , without doing idiotic remarks?!


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## fraser

It just seems that you think that Israel is a wonderful place. Why not emigrate if you think that it is such a wonderful country. Surely you do not want to live in Canada with all of the major issues that we have....high postage rates, CRA queries and inefficiency to name just a few.

You must have a wonderful life if these are the biggest financial issues in your life.


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## Davis

Fraser, if Gibor were to move to Israel, don't you think he would complain about life there? After all, he's left once already. He also left Russia once, and doesn't hesitate to tell us about things that are better there. maybe he should just keep trying different countries until he finds one that offers top quality free health care and education and other services without levying taxes.


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## humble_pie

gibor said:


> ... the same system in Israel, everything was linked electronically ao from 1990 to 1999 I never filled any taxes (and no one did), except for business owners. Actually , I contacted Israeli CRA-analog only once,... new immigrants have huge tax credits for first several years, if person serves in IDF , those credits are extended. Somehow mine didn't , so I called them and it took 5 min to extend my credits...
> btw, I'm not sure what is sitation now, but up to 1999 we all interests from deposits were tax free , tax on capital gains on stock market were introduced only in mod 90's, not sure about dividends...



we. don't. care.


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## Causalien

gibor said:


> fraser, I didn't expect from you to distort country name, like some radical-muslims are doing :upset:
> 
> P.S. and did you thing for a second that things can be impoved in Canada , without doing idiotic remarks?!


What us complainers are trying to get at, is that most Canadians have no idea how backward the North American tax system is. That is because there has been no need to file taxes in other countries for the majority of us. Canadians and Americans are pretty rare breed in the long term backpacking crowd who usually have to work and travel and eventually end up settling somewhere else.

The inefficiency in tax system is due to several things. Built in self sustaining inefficiency. There are two groups of people that needs to be fed. Accountants and tax lawyers.

Capitalism influence that created a rich man's loophole for every commoner's benefits.

The built in incentives at CRA which promotes inefficiency. From my friend who worked there, power is gained by having more workers under you. So an outperformer will be persuaded to slow down so the boss can reduce the # of files processable per person, thus creating the legal basis to ask for more workers. More workers under you = more power. This can be easilly solved by changing the power incentive to # of files processed per worker compared to a historical average.

Entrenched interest to keep a loophole once it is created by the rich. I don't even understand how the 2nd class citizenship came to be law. How it was explained to me was that it has to be law before it can be debated in front of the supreme court. Bull crap. Once it is in, it is entrenched and harder to repeal. Now imaging this for every tax loophole ever. Look at the TFSA. You have to win an election to even begin the process of dismantling the increase.


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## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> we. don't. care.


Sweetie, than don't spend your energy to reply :stupid: , you (together with your buddy davis) are not welcome to threads I open...


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## Davis

gibor said:


> Sweetie, than don't spend your energy to reply :stupid: , you (together with your buddy davis) are not welcome to threads I open...


I don't think it is your call on who can post on this public forum or not. If you don't like our responses to your threads, feel free not to open them. if you decide to start a discussion thread, expect people who disagree with you to post. I will only promise to not post things that are libellous of incite hatred of identifiable groups.


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## gibor365

..


> I don't think





Davis said:


> Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


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## Eclectic12

Causalien said:


> ... The built in incentives at CRA which promotes inefficiency.
> From my friend who worked there, power is gained by having more workers under you ...


It is a bigger problem that applies far more broadly than CRA.
Every private company I've worked for has this same setup, the same budget system that's supposed to so bad for gov't but apparently is just great for private companies.


Cheers


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## andrewf

Private companies, particularly big ones, are also susceptible to becoming excessively bureaucratic. I am frustrated by the stupid budget politics that goes on in my organization.


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## fraser

I think it comes down to whether you see the glass as being half full or half empty. We are so happy when we return to Canada from our travels...not withstanding CRA, the price of postage, or anything else.


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## OhGreatGuru

gibor said:


> ...
> My son told me that practically all his friends student got similar letters! I overheard my son conversation with their friends.... they are pissed off that CRA ALREADY targeting them!
> ...


From T1 Guide:
_
Line 323 – Your tuition, education, and textbook amounts
...
Forms
To claim tuition fees paid to an educational institution in Canada, you will need an official tax receipt or a completed Form T2202A, Tuition, Education, and Textbook Amounts Certificate, which your institution has to give you.
...

*Supporting documents – If you are filing electronically, keep all your documents in case we ask to see them at a later date. If you are filing a paper return, attach your completed Schedule 11, but do not send your other documents. Keep them in case we ask to see them at a later date.*_

1. What part of this did you or your son or his many friends not understand?
2. Would you prefer that CRA never ask any taxpayer for documentation to back up expense claims, especially now that electronic filing does not require receipts?


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## Eclectic12

^^^^

At the time (i.e. university), I found it strange the CRA would ask as the numbers were so small. It seemed to me that checking a tax payer with a business or higher income would be more worthwhile.


I didn't see it as anything to get worked up about as I had all the necessary receipts.



Cheers


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## bgc_fan

Eclectic12 said:


> ^^^^
> 
> At the time (i.e. university), I found it strange the CRA would ask as the numbers were so small. It seemed to me that checking a tax payer with a business or higher income would be more worthwhile.
> 
> 
> I didn't see it as anything to get worked up about as I had all the necessary receipts.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers


Back in the day, I don't remember electronic filing being an option. But I do remember a friend of mine being audited because he tried to claim the cost of the books as expenses. He was denied.


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## Eclectic12

bgc_fan said:


> Back in the day, I don't remember electronic filing being an option.
> But I do remember a friend of mine being audited because he tried to claim the cost of the books as expenses. He was denied.


 ... which makes me wonder all the more why I was asked for the receipts. 

Add in that total income was under $10K so it is not like there would be big tax money to get back, if I had failed to produce the receipts.


In any case, it was provide receipts then receive a confirmation that all was well. There was no claim for anything but what was allowed and no claim denied.

Cheers


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## gibor365

> At the time (i.e. university), I found it strange the CRA would ask as the numbers were so small. It seemed to me that checking a tax payer with a business or higher income would be more worthwhile.





> Add in that total income was under $10K so it is not like there would be big tax money to get back, if I had failed to produce the receipts.


Exactly! So, why to waste our time and CRA's (actually our tax money )..... whatever, my son called them and CRA said that it will take 3-4 to review .... 2 sheets of paper (T2022A and rent contract) . Extremely efficient organization :biggrin:


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## Moneytoo

Moneytoo said:


> Well the "amount reviewed" is 9K+ which seemed huge, but we only received 2K back, so no, no mistake, Turbotax is smarter than me (I have no recollection of claiming it... )
> ...
> Yeah, they wanted printed Schedule 5 (that has names, relationships and DOBs, but no SINs) and then separately SINs, date since living with us and net incomes (since I do everybody's taxes, it was easy to copy this info ) No proof was requested that we all live under the same roof, but they can come and check anytime :biggrin:


Got the letter from CRA today:

"We have completed our review. Based on the documentation submitted, we have allowed the claim(s) under review."

So no biggie if it keeps someone employed :biggrin:


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## makemerich

gibor said:


> Exactly! So, why to waste our time and CRA's (actually our tax money )..... whatever, my son called them and CRA said that it will take 3-4 to review .... 2 sheets of paper (T2022A and rent contract) . Extremely efficient organization :biggrin:


Your son is claiming his rent? Well that'll be denied. Unless I missed something here, rent is not an eligible tuition expense. He should have a T2202A which will give a credit for tuition and textbooks - nothing more.


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## james4beach

I also had amounts under review this year... I simply uploaded scans of the supporting documents through their web site. And I got a nice letter back a few days ago saying they allowed the claims.

Previously they reviewed amounts for moving expenses.

No big deal. A bit of hassle to give them the documents, but you should always keep all your supporting documentation. I really don't think it's too much extra work, and you can submit them electronically.


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## bgc_fan

makemerich said:


> Your son is claiming his rent? Well that'll be denied. Unless I missed something here, rent is not an eligible tuition expense. He should have a T2202A which will give a credit for tuition and textbooks - nothing more.


Isn't there some tax credit on rent when you have low income? Regardless of employment status?


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## gibor365

makemerich said:


> Your son is claiming his rent? Well that'll be denied. Unless I missed something here, rent is not an eligible tuition expense. He should have a T2202A which will give a credit for tuition and textbooks - nothing more.


Yes, you miss a lot  You enter amount of rent you pay, and depends on your income you get some tax credit....
My son income was too small to get any tax credit at all (with or withour rent). This is why I called it ridiculous. He also got a letter week ago that his receipts got accepted, but if even they won't get accepted - he wouldn't pay any taxes ...
as money2 said


> So no biggie if it keeps someone employed


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## makemerich

gibor said:


> makemerich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your son is claiming his rent? Well that'll be denied. Unless I missed something here, rent is not an eligible tuition expense. He should have a T2202A which will give a credit for tuition and textbooks - nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you miss a lot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You enter amount of rent you pay, and depends on your income you get some tax credit....
> My son income was too small to get any tax credit at all (with or withour rent). This is why I called it ridiculous. He also got a letter week ago that his receipts got accepted, but if even they won't get accepted - he wouldn't pay any taxes ...
> as money2 said
> 
> 
> 
> So no biggie if it keeps someone employed
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Please reference this to the CRA website or the income tax act. Perhaps there is an Ontario government subsidy for low income individuals but that does not exist in CRAs eyes. If he was low income why would he need the reduction anyways? That doesn't make sense. If he was earning income by using his residence it would be a different story. There are already tax breaks for those who are low income like the personal basic amount which exempts you from the first $11k of employment income.

The reason the CRA is inefficient is because there are individuals who do not do their research and as such do not file their tax returns correctly. The system is working because CRA is about to deny claims that do not exist. 

And just so you understand - CRA does not make tax law, they reinforce it. If you have any issues with the tax system not working correctly then you should bring that up with your elected officials.


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## Charlie

The refundable rent benefit for Ontario mm: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/taxcredits/CalculatorResults.asp

CRA administers many of the Provincial programs. And, like the Feds, the Provinces love to introduce bits a pieces on budget day to flesh out the press release.

I thought the rent thingie was refundable so if Gibor's son's income was low and he paid rent he'd get a benefit...but he'd know.

Tuition is often asked for. The credits carry forward so even if it makes no difference this yr, it does impact future years. Also, they're not linked to SINs so CRA does not have a record of it. Tuition/Childcare/Moving/Donations are frequently asked for. Just a verification -- not an audit -- so usually you send them the info and they go off on their way. Seems fair enough to me. I've many more substantial complaints about CRA and the tax code.

Just stressful corresponding with them.


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## gibor365

> If he was low income why would he need the reduction anyways? That doesn't make sense.


 When he did taxes on turbotax, there were a question about rent and tax credit was mentioned... I dpn't care Fed or Provincial....because he had a low income, it didn't affect his return...but as majority of students, who uses sublets, several guys rent same apartment ... it was a bit of hassle to get rent letter...



> Just stressful corresponding with them.


 true



> they're not linked to SINs so CRA does not have a record of it.


 this was my point... why not to link SIN?! It would more simple for everybody


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## Eclectic12

makemerich said:


> Please reference this to the CRA website or the income tax act.


I leave the documentation to Gibor but will add that before the 2000's, I was claiming my rent. It's not a student thing though as I also claimed it early in my working career.




makemerich said:


> Perhaps there is an Ontario government subsidy for low income individuals but that does not exist in CRAs eyes.
> 
> If he was low income why would he need the reduction anyways? That doesn't make sense.


CRA collects the forms/taxes to be paid on Ontario's behalf, I filed for it using the forms sent to CRA ... so they better know about it.

In an case, most students are low income as they only work part of the year so they are a subset of those who qualify for it. As I say, in the low income of at minimum my first year of full time work, I also qualified for it.

I haven't qualified in decades because of income levels.


Or are you thinking that CRA lets the provinces randomly insert forms in to the T1 General and they don't worry about how it integrates to the final bill? 

It is CRA that is responsible for the final combined Fed/Provincial tax bill, are they not?




makemerich said:


> If he was earning income by using his residence it would be a different story. There are already tax breaks for those who are low income like the personal basic amount which exempts you from the first $11k of employment income.


I'm not sure what this has to do with what Ontario does and what is in the forms that CRA collects.

Quickly scanning a T1 General form spreadsheet that is *sent to* CRA - for Ontario I see "Ontario Trillium Benefit", "Application for Ontario energy and property tax credit", "Application for the Northern Ontario energy credit", "Application for the Ontario senior homeowner's property tax grant", a line for "Enter the total amount of rent paid for your principal residence in Ontario", another line for "total amount of property tax paid for your principal residence in Ontario", another line for "total amount paid for your accommmodation in a public long-term care home in Ontario".

I could go on ... but the tax form sent to CRA has a lot of Ontario specific lines about property taxes and rent. 



makemerich said:


> ... because there are individuals who do not do their research and as such do not file their tax returns correctly.


And some apparently are not aware that CRA collects on behalf of the Ontario gov't so that the T1 form has a mimimum of six Ontario forms. Some of these forms as for rent paid or property taxes paid by the Ontario resident.

Last time I have an Ontario form challenged, the letter came from CRA.


Cheers


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## Charlie

Hey Gibor:

I did a quick calc of your son's benefit based on income less than $15K and $1650 of rent. He gets a $309 refund separate from his tax return. Like the GST amount or child benefits it doesn't affect your tax return, but it does result in a refund.

So he owes you lunch for your stress, troubles and tax preparation expertise!


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## OptsyEagle

Not sure if I understand the discussion here but I believe Ontario has something known as the "Trillium Benefit" that takes into account rent paid by students who move away from home to attend post secondary education. It provides a monthly kick back (or an annual lump sum at 12 times the monthly amount paid at the end of the year) to the student. It is not a tax credit, it is not federal and it does not reduce any taxes owed. It is simply a reimbursement of expenses paid, so to speak.

Perhaps that is where is was claimed.


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## makemerich

I stand corrected re: rent benefit. I did not realize that the Trillium Benefit encompassed those paying rent (thought it only pertained to property taxes) - learn something new every day! Good thing I rarely have to deal with Ontario returns haha... However, this benefit has nothing to do with the tuition tax credit other than the fact that one of the criteria in receiving the Trillium Benefit is that you live in student residences.

I deal with CRA on a very regular basis and there are definitely a few horror stories... but this does not sound like one of them. Like other people have said, submit your documents (which you can do online now) and you should have a response in a couple of weeks. If your claims were filed correctly, you won't be bothered any more. 

My worst experience involves a family with multiple disabled children who would file their returns with the disability tax credit (and a whole load of medical) each year and each year they would be reviewed and result in no denial of claims what so ever. You would think the CRA would clue in the first time but it has been like this several years in a row.


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## gibor365

Charlie said:


> Hey Gibor:
> 
> I did a quick calc of your son's benefit based on income less than $15K and $1650 of rent. He gets a $309 refund separate from his tax return. Like the GST amount or child benefits it doesn't affect your tax return, but it does result in a refund.
> 
> So he owes you lunch for your stress, troubles and tax preparation expertise!


Charlie, I don't know how you did calcs so fast, however, my got refund something in $40-50 range 



> Like other people have said, submit your documents (which you can do online now) and you should have a response in a couple of weeks


 Actually it took more the couple of months fro CRA to reply  
The major inconvenience for me was that my son was travelling in Europe when I got the letter .... it took some effort to get letter about rental ... also my fear was that he entered by mistake wrong numbers from T2202A ....


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## makemerich

So what happened here, OP?


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## gibor365

as I wrote above


> Actually it took more the couple of months fro CRA to reply


, so obviously they accepted claim ... just waste of our tax money and my time


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## Brian K

I always used to physically send in my tax documents (done with Quicktax) so CRA would get my complete file and supporting documentation - no questions ever. Then a few years ago they basically said they wanted me to file using Netfile so I complied. Since then I have they have requested backup info a few times. 

Too bad they didn't have their own software (rather than me having to buy Quicktax or something else every year) and a step to allow me to scan extra documents at the time of filing (charitable receipts, medical expenses etc.) for them and attach to my return. That would reduce the extra requests. A letter from CRA in the mailbox is NEVER opened with a smile.


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## Eclectic12

Weird ... so far, the only request I've received from CRA for supporting documentation is when I filed my first tax return as a student.

Maybe it's the medical expenses as my sister has indicated that mom's been asked for supporting documentation may times.


Cheers


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## fraser

Sounds to me like you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Why is this such a big deal? CRA asked for receipts. Your son sent them in. Everything is fine. 

Or do you think that everyone except your son should be subject to CRA checks and verifications?

Sounds like you must have a wonderful life if this is the biggest issue and the most time consuming issue that you have. This has happened to me, my spouse, and my daughter at various times. Not a big issue whatsoever. We sent in the requested documentation and the issue was resolved. We certainly did not waste any time over it or spend our days on senseless wailing and complaining.


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## naysmitj

I was asked every summer for the receipts for my mother between her 85th and 90th birthday. I started just sending in all of her paperwork to file her taxes, and they stopped asking.


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## capricorn

I did not read this thread as Gibor making a big deal. Just sharing his experience.
Canada is great place to live, probably the best. But, no harm in expecting it to become better. CRA interaction, for one, can surely be improved on. That is one big organisation for such a small population.
"senseless wailing and complaining" can be therapeutic for some. So, maybe not so bad. Especially, if on a public forum you find yourself among some kindred souls.


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## LBCfan

Just another reason to 'paper file'. They have the documents, no reason to guard your filing cabinet for 7 years. Not even any postage required if you live near a CRA office.


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## gibor365

> Just another reason to 'paper file'.


 Don;t you think that "paper file" in 2015 is a little bit stupid?! I just surprise how "patriots" of Canada defending ridiculous CRA :biggrin: I'm pretty sure that this government workers need to protect their work position, so they need to review specific amount of returns.... and it's obvious that it's much easier to jump on 1st year students that on some billionaires whose lawyer will make CRA to pay to their clients


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## gibor365

> Canada is great place to live, probably the best.


 Probably  idk ... Except Canada, I lived only in CCCP (that doesn't exist any more) and Israel... Some things are better here, some in Israel....one of the biggest pros living in Canada - there is no muslim terrorism here (still) ... even though with this liberal BS of Liberal - who knows what will be here.
However, from point of view , Israel is much better (I hope HP won't chock on her saliva again ), I lived there from 1990 to 1999, and akk taxation was paperless ... all institution were passing info to revenue agency electronically, so people shouldn't bother to fill out taxes... I contacted them only once in 10 years, when they forgot to extend my new immigrant tax credits because of service in IDF.
CRA is a truly ridiculous organization .. as I said before, several years ago they deposited on my account about 7 or 8K without any reason, I paid them back after conversation over the phone and they charged me interest and some fee for couple of weeks that money were on my account .... If our "patriots" thing that this is normal, they just :stupid:

P.S. I strongly support the only fair - Flat Tax system .... and 90% of CRA asses can be laid-off!


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## heyjude

Gibor, I really think you would be happier living in Israel.


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## kcowan

I had the CRA screw up my payments, crediting them to 2015 installments instead of 2014 arrears. I filed a Notice of Objection and refused to close it until they restored all penalties and interest. I file added documentation for medical. I like the fact that it is all done electronically. It is a PITA but the least of my worries.

(Thankfully, I have nothing to do with the IRS!)


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## Davis

Many people are asking "why doesn't the CRA do this, that or the other thing electronically?" The answer is that CRA is working towards full electronic service delivery because it is cheaper, and faster, and because people want it. Developing new, secure ways of doing things takes time and money, so don't expect everything to be done tomorrow. But every year, we are seeing more and more electronic services available. Think of what electronic filing looked like five years ago compared to today.


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## fraser

We file our taxes electronically. But we keep our documentation and we have been audited.

Flat tax may be fine for some. But if you have auto expenses, office expenses, entertainment, etc as part of your income earning expenses it is hardly feasible to record and transmit your SIN number every time you gas up or buy paper. Not to mention privacy issues. 

So we have filed electronically, we have re-filed electronically, we have been audited, we have been asked to provide receipts for certain deductions. No issue. Happy to do especially since this exactly what CRA is supposed to be doing. If CRA took everyone at their word and did not perform audits or audit checks I have no doubt that reported taxable incomes would decrease as would tax revenue.  We would be another Greece or Italy. And yes, like any other business they can screw up from time to time. But for the average taxpayer it is simply not a big deal.


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## Davis

I'm sure that OP isn't average. He seems pretty "special".


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## fraser

Not really special at all.

Anyone who gets a T2020 from his/her employer for auto expenses or home office (very common for commission sales people) will be following this route.

Even my daughter, with 'other income' from child care work was audited by CRA-asked for more details. The audit was actually an audit project initiated on behalf of CPP by CRA. CPP wanted to get their 'employer' share of CPP premiums from people who were declaring other types of earned income not t4'd.


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## dte227

As others have stated, this is normal. My first tax return (in first year uni) was audited. Had to send them my tuition thing (T2020 i think), online iirc. 
I think its standard precaution and I have not been audited again


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