# Trudeau close the borders



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

It's been a year, it's time to get serious.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/variant-covid-19-quebec-mauricie-india-b1617-1.5996882



We're importing mutations that are more dangerous, and may not be stopped by current vaccines.

Trudeau close the borders!!!


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Agreed borders are porous.....but can he keep Canadians out?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Agreed borders are porous.....but can he keep Canadians out?


He can force them into quarantine.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

How many flights per week do you think are still going between here and India, the world's hotspot?

How many of those travellers are popping $750 to avoid quarantine and going home? How exactly are Indian double-variants already present?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> He can force them into quarantine.


 ... I think CBSA needs a total revamp or re-look on the "Security" part and less focus on "duty-taxes".


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> He can force them into quarantine.


$750 and you avoid quarantine and can spread the double or now triple variants as you wish. Probably someone will call and ask you if you're behaving nicely. That's about it.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

doctrine said:


> $750 and you avoid quarantine and can spread the double or now triple variants as you wish. Probably someone will call and ask you if you're behaving nicely. That's about it.


The quarantine act allows for jail time, and fines of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Quite honestly if I had the choice of $2k for a quarantine hotel, or $750 to stay home, I think it's moronic to expect anyone to stay in the quarantine hotel


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> It's been a year, it's time to get serious.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/variant-covid-19-quebec-mauricie-india-b1617-1.5996882
> ...


What is the percent different of the variant?

According to Michael Yeadon former VP @ Pfizer it is only .3%. I would supply a video link though the video has been censored on this site twice. Scare everyone to create new markets for the drug dealers new genetic cocktails.

Lets take isolation to the point where mothers in Africa have to leave new born to defend for themselves because they cant afford to feed them. Poverty kills more then any virus. Everything the poli TICKS have done has just matters worse. Yet people do not want to hold themselves up & want the poli TICKS to do more. Total insanity wanting different results & keep doing the same thing.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Chrystia may have to have another talk with Justin and get the borders closed.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Chrystia may have to have another talk with Justin and get the borders closed.


maybe she can order him some fancy socks off amazon and distract him for a few days so she can sort out this mess.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Even when Covid-deniers have been importing and spreading the UK and Brazil variants, businesses and politicians still wanted to keep the economy open.


When the federal government introduced deterrents to avert travel, Covid-deniers just complained about the high cost and inconvenience but found ways to bypass the mandatory 3-day hotel quarantine stay.


If and when there is a total ban on all air travel and closure to land and sea crossings, who here will be the first to complain that we have lost our freedom behind an iron curtain? Who here will complain about the increasing deficit paid to compensate keeping aircrafts on the ground? Who here will find other ways to sneak in and out because it's all a hoax.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Just vaccinate everything and relax border restrictions to allow tourism from fully vaccinated tourists.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> Even when Covid-deniers have been importing and spreading the UK and Brazil variants, businesses and politicians still wanted to keep the economy open.
> 
> 
> When the federal government introduced deterrents to avert travel, Covid-deniers just complained about the high cost and inconvenience but found ways to bypass the mandatory 3-day hotel quarantine stay.
> ...


Well there is a middle ground between wide open, and iron curtain 100% sealed.
I don't think many people are really for either extreme.

We just want the reasonable and practical measures to stop bringing in new variants. 
They did this in Taiwan and New Zealand to great success.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

doctrine said:


> How many flights per week do you think are still going between here and India, the world's hotspot?
> 
> How many of those travellers are popping $750 to avoid quarantine and going home? How exactly are Indian double-variants already present?


It is not just flights from India. It is people flying from India. They can be on flights from London, Frankurt, Amersterdam, SE Asai Paris, etc. where passengers from India have changed planes. Not to mention those who have stopped over in any of those cities for several days.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

ian said:


> It is not just flights from India. It is people flying from India. They can be on flights from London, Frankurt, Amersterdam, SE Asai Paris, etc. where passengers from India have changed planes. Not to mention those who have stopped over in any of those cities for several days.


That's why they should quarantine all travellers.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Fain said:


> Just vaccinate everything and relax border restrictions to allow tourism from fully vaccinated tourists.


Your leading the way to microchip everyone. To prove your vaccinated your going to need a microchip injected on your forehead for all to see. There are an estimated 380 trillion viruses living in your body right now. Do we need a genetic cocktail for all of them ?? The drug dealers have been granted immunity for anything that goes wrong with their experimental cocktails that have not been fully tested. How can health Canada say they are safe when they have not been fully tested yet ?? They are not really vaccines since they do not have a piece of the virus in them.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> He can force them into quarantine.


Unless you are living on a different planet that is what is being done. I returned on the 17th of April with a full vaccination , negative PCR test and I will be in house arrest until my time is complete. We complete on line questiionare daily and we get numerous random phone calls and might can an actual in person checkup. Before the quarantine is complete I must get two more PCR tests with negative results. The fines for not compliance are $3000 per offence. Instead of a North Korea approach here is my suggestion. All essential workers travelling back and forth with the US should be vaccinated now. Blocking that sort of travel would mean empty produce shelves and a shutdown of much of the economy. That would be shooting yourself in the foot. I see Manitoba has worked out such a vaccination program with the state of North Dakota. A another step is to ban all incoming flights from hot spots like India and barring entry for non-citizen from those countries. There up to 8 incoming flights from India daily. The current hotel detention and land crossing quarantine program has its flaws . The one that doesn't make sense is quarantining fully vaccinated Canadians. Australia, Ireland, Israel and other countries have lifted the quarantines for those travellers. The evidence is overwhelming . Vaccinated people's risk is almost reduced to zero. If you are looking at perfection you are the wrong planet. I should point that less then 1% of incoming travellers have tested positive and they have been placed in government detention centres. Ontario is showing 4500 positive tests per day what is the government doing with them ? Another fact to consider is the CDC says that the covid virus will mutate into various new forms on its own and this is clearly what has been happening. I have great difficulty seeing how incoming air travellers are the cause given the current restrictions and detentions.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> That's why they should quarantine all travellers.


They are.


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## Bananatron (Jan 18, 2021)

What a joke. 95% of the population has been following the rules and sacrificing for the past 13 months and our country continues to allow viruses from countries without restrictions in.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Bananatron said:


> What a joke. 95% of the population has been following the rules and sacrificing for the past 13 months and our country continues to allow viruses from countries without restrictions in.


I highly doubt 95% have been following the rules here. I'd be surprised if real compliance is over 75%.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Why did Trudeau ban all flights from Mexico and not do the same for flights from India and Pakistan? was there a political consideration? I go back to what the AG said in her report. The government reacts to things after they happen and does a lousy job of anticipating developments and responding accordingly. It seems bizarre at this stage we have not vaccinated essentials workers who cross the border daily. It is a massive hole in their program .Truck drivers and other individuals that I know have gotten their vaccination from the US by now. When this pandemic is over history will show this government to be incompetent on numerous fronts. Anticipating the need for vaccines and securing actual adequate supplies will be number 1 on the list.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> I highly doubt 95% have been following the rules here. I'd be surprised if real compliance is over 75%.


You having much choice when you fly into a Canadian airport. You are placed in hotel detention until you get a negative test. If you test positive you are placed into government detention. Is the three test process is inadequate ? how about a dozen tests? I would be more concerned about the 10,000 daily positive tests and what measures the government is taking with these people. Is there any chance that they could be spreading the virus?


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## Bananatron (Jan 18, 2021)

cainvest said:


> I highly doubt 95% have been following the rules here. I'd be surprised if real compliance is over 75%.


It doesn't really matter what the percentage, point is any effort made to follow the rules is made moot by our porous borders.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> They are.


They are not.

As others have said, some people are simply walking away.

Remember until just a few weeks ago, they didn't even have quarantine hotels.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I would doubt Trudeau has closed Roxham Road. No doubt busier than ever.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> They are not.
> 
> As others have said, some people are simply walking away.
> 
> Remember until just a few weeks ago, they didn't even have quarantine hotels.


yes and they have been tracked down and charged and will be appearing in court. They will be looking at fines in excess of $7500 , time in jail and surrender of their passports. It's my understanding their was about 200 and they have all been charged.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Fain said:


> Just vaccinate everything and relax border restrictions to allow tourism from fully vaccinated tourists.


We are already pretty much over this wave...no need for more restrictions to citizens.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

We treat incoming people with a clean Covid test much worse than people that have Covid.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> yes and they have been tracked down and charged and will be appearing in court. They will be looking at fines in excess of $7500 , time in jail and surrender of their passports. It's my understanding their was about 200 and they have all been charged.


Don't be confused I am anything but a defender of the incompetent Trudeau regime. The whole approach to the pandemic from day 1 has been a gong show. Almost every response is a reaction to something that has already happened and seems to be designed on the fly.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

So why did we ban flights from the UK but now won't from India? It's just baffling. Did we even allow UK flights to resume, even though they've effectively beaten COVID down and are re-opening?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

doctrine said:


> So why did we ban flights from the UK but now won't from India? It's just baffling. Did we even allow UK flights to resume, even though they've effectively beaten COVID down and are re-opening?


The Trudeau government is very sensitive to the East Indian community because it is a strong support base for the Liberals.Trying to apply rational and logical thought to their decisions is baffling. The Trudeau decisions have more to with politics than public health. The government subsidized media still won't hold him account able.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I doubt it is possible to pick and choose passengers arriving on International flights which ones are more likely to have been infected.

There are two choices........close down all flights from everywhere or do what the government is doing and test and quarantine arrivals.

Half measures lead to half results.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> The Trudeau government is very sensitive to the East Indian community because it is a strong support base for the Liberals.Trying to apply rational and logical thought to their decisions is baffling. The Trudeau decisions have more to with politics than public health. The government subsidized media still won't hold him account able.


I've been saying it for a while.
When Trudeau said "science based policy", he meant political science.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

doctrine said:


> So why did we ban flights from the UK but now won't from India? It's just baffling. Did we even allow UK flights to resume, even though they've effectively beaten COVID down and are re-opening?


Flights are banned now from India and Pakistan for 30 days. He must have heard you.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Looking forward to all travelers from India coming through third countries. I don't think it is necessary to block flights entirely. Just implement strict 2 week enforced quarantines in hotels with no wiggle room to just walk out without the certainty of stiff penalties.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Looking forward to all travelers from India coming through third countries. I don't think it is necessary to block flights entirely. Just implement strict 2 week enforced quarantines in hotels with no wiggle room to just walk out without the certainty of stiff penalties.


I really wonder why Trudeau isn't' forcing this, we have the data that like 1% of incoming travellers have detectable COVID when they step off the plane.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

An internment camp.........kind of like the ones that the Conservative right wing were accusing Trudeau of setting up ?

Since many of the passengers are Canadian citizens.......that might be a small problem.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Shut the border completely to all commercial international flights.......and be done with it.

No quarantine necessary. No follow up necessary. No court cases over Constitutional rights.

Meanwhile, the Conservative media wants to open everything up and let God sort out who lives and who dies.

Let us go golfing, play tennis, and picnic in the parks, send our kids to school on buses and cram them into rooms.....for goodness sakes.

It isn't like school bus drivers, teachers, janitors aren't immune from the infection.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Canadians have the right to return.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Some CMF posters waffle more than the Pancake House.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Canadians have the right to return.


Yup......but they have no right to a ride back. No air flights, no ships......maybe they could swim or paddle a canoe back.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> Yup......but they have no right to a ride back. No air flights, no ships......maybe they could swim or paddle a canoe back.


Not true. If they show up at a land border crossing the Charter quarantines their entry. I am really surprised how Liberals are quick to dismiss fundamental rights enshrined in the Charter. It shouldn't be a surprise it was a Liberal government who interned Japanese Canadian citizens , deported German jews fleeing from Hitler and instituting the War Measures Act during the Quebec crisis and arrested 1000s of Canadians without cause, a warrant or any right to counsel. Some things never change.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Looking forward to all travelers from India coming through third countries. I don't think it is necessary to block flights entirely. Just implement strict 2 week enforced quarantines in hotels with no wiggle room to just walk out without the certainty of stiff penalties.


That is pretty much why targeted country bans wouldn't work. You have to ban all travelers, or have the 2 week enforced quarantine like New Zealand. But, considering people are already troubled with a 3 day quarantine, the 2 week quarantine would never get implemented.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

If you show up vaccinated a quarantine is pointless. Others all show up with a clean Covid test...quarantine is pointless.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eder said:


> If you show up vaccinated a quarantine is pointless. Others all show up with a clean Covid test...quarantine is pointless.


Based on... Eder doesn't want a quarantine.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Based on... Eder doesn't want a quarantine.


he makes perfect sense. The CDC says fully vaccination people are not asymptotic and pose no risk of transmission. A massive real time with Pfizer and Israel only confirms that. I think the case is strong with the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ That may be true when the "pandemic" is declared over (or close to that) whenever that may be. "Until then, the quarantine(s) is staying/on."


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Based on... Eder doesn't want a quarantine.


I believe in strong measures at the borders and airports to contain the covid variants. The 14 day at home quarantine with 3 PCR tests is a god measure. The wife and me have received random phone calls on 5 occasions in 6 days. We must report to the agency everyday. We can expect a random in person check. The one issue I have is they don't track smart phones. That is a big deficiency . In any event the 3 PCR test and 14 day home quarantine has not led to any positive new covid cases. I agree that this is a useless exercise for people who have the double dose of Pfizer/Moderna. The airport process needs some tightening with the home quarantine after the release from the hotel. Remember when they are released from the hotel they have been tested twice with negative results in both cases. Every essential worker travelling between the USA should be fully vaccinated . The measures taken against India and Pakistan should have been in place many months ago. As the AG said the Trudeau government acts after the cattle are out of the barn.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> If you show up vaccinated a quarantine is pointless. Others all show up with a clean Covid test...quarantine is pointless.


Clean covid test does not mean you won't develop an infection. I agree that different considerations should be made for fully vaccinated people. Maybe not complete laissez faire, but home quarantine with tests should be reasonable.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I would hope that Trudeau continue to avoid the "Doug Ford syndrome" of issuing edicts that can't be enforced and then giving teary eyed apologies.

Trudeau can't close the borders to Canadians, but he can make it inconvenient for them to return to Canada directly.

Yes, they can travel to a European country and fly from there, or fly to the US and make a land crossing into Canada.

If they are that determined to travel........they will find a way to do it, but they can deal with the hassles of doing so.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Hawaii has allowed entry with a clean Covid test since October...real world test. Almost no Covid cases were imported. As I said...14 day quarantine is more for optics than actual science.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I would hope that Trudeau continue to avoid the "Doug Ford syndrome" of issuing edicts that can't be enforced and then giving teary eyed apologies.
> 
> Trudeau can't close the borders to Canadians, but he can make it inconvenient for them to return to Canada directly.
> 
> ...


Doug Ford shouldn't have apologized, and considering the problem they were reasonable restrictions.
Maybe a bit on the harsh side, or maybe too lose, but it's hard to argue they were completely wrong.

Most jurisdictions that stopped COVID19 had harsh restrictions

Trudeau can restrict all travellers to a reasonable quarantine, his refusal to do so is arguably one of his crowing failures as one of the worst PMs in Canadian history.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't think the "anyone but Trudeau" plan is working out so well for Conservatives, so hopefully they will stick with it.........LOL.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I don't think the "anyone but Trudeau" plan is working out so well for Conservatives, so hopefully they will stick with it.........LOL.


No, unfortunately.
What the CPC fails to understand is that Liberal voters don't see Trudeau as a total failure.
They think Liberal voters know he's horrible, but not bad enough to vote for someone else.

Their current approach is appropriate for the CPC base, but not to the potential swing voter.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The CBA released some data . About 58,000 have crossed by land since the new measures were implemented. 120 of this group tested positive. A positivity rate .025. The daily testing in Canada is running at a positivity rate of 9%. To my amazement they collect all the data on tests "but they don't track people who have been vaccinated" . The gong show continues.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

You should elaborate that another 75k people/day are crossing without a test,vaccine or quarantine. But lets crucify snowbirds lol.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> You should elaborate that another 75k people/day are crossing without a test,vaccine or quarantine. But lets crucify snowbirds lol.


Of all the crosses people are bearing these days, I don't think snowbirds have that much to complain about.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Fully vaccinated people can catch covid and be asymptomatic as described in this independent living facility. Whether they can transmit or not is a different question.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> Fully vaccinated people can catch covid and be asymptomatic as described in this independent living facility. Whether they can transmit or not is a different question.


Yes they can the CDC says out of 85 million 6000 tested positive for Covid.you will need a decimile and a pile of zeros to come up with the positivity rate on that. We can only hope we can get numbers like that. I see a glass 99% full and you concentrate on the 1 %.]


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Canada does not want any privilege for any fortunate enough to get a vaccine...at least that is what I hope the reluctance to accept science is.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

No idea what you two are talking about. My post was to show a real life situation as of today in a retirement residence.where 2 non-vaccinated people brought the virus into the residence, with a number of vaccinated people testing positive for covid, but with no, or mild, symptoms, and that: 1) we are vulnerable to those who won't vaccinate, 2) that the vaccines work. 

What is not clear from the current Kelowna situation is those who have tested positive for covid but are asymptomatic are transmitters to others in the residence, or whether it was the 2 idiots who didn't vaccinate were the transmitters for all the cases present.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

zinfit said:


> Yes they can the CDC says out of 85 million 6000 tested positive for Covid.you will need a decimile and a pile of zeros to come up with the positivity rate on that.


And those stats, just like for all reported covid cases, are only the ones they know about. Vaccinated or not, when a large number of active cases are around you need to be careful.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Yes they can the CDC says out of 85 million 6000 tested positive for Covid.you will need a decimile and a pile of zeros to come up with the positivity rate on that. We can only hope we can get numbers like that. I see a glass 99% full and you concentrate on the 1 %.]


Source?

The vaccine clinical trials only showed 90-ish% reduction in severe illness, which means the reduction in infection must be less than this. Unless the vaccines are much more effective in reality than the clinical trials would indicate.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Israel study showed a 94% protection rate with Pfizer after "both" doses were administered 21 days apart.

We are a long ways from people having both doses and they won't be 21 days apart. We are basically in unknown territory now.

Another case of blood clots in a Hamilton man in his 60s. They say the blood clots occur once in every 100,000 to 250,000 injections.

Unfortunately there is a 40% mortality rate, so it is very serious symptoms.

The India virus is also spreading in Ontario now. It is deadly.......as we can see from the catastrophe in India.

We really need our politicians to step up and make the right decisions. Now is no time to even consider opening anything up.

We need to lock down tight now.........before the India virus gets a foothold and overwhelms our healthcare system just like India's.

We are going to end up locking down anyways. We shouldn't wait until people are dying on gurneys in the hospital parking lot.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> No idea what you two are talking about. My post was to show a real life situation as of today in a retirement residence.where 2 non-vaccinated people brought the virus into the residence, with a number of vaccinated people testing positive for covid, but with no, or mild, symptoms, and that: 1) we are vulnerable to those who won't vaccinate, 2) that the vaccines work.
> 
> What is not clear from the current Kelowna situation is those who have tested positive for covid but are asymptomatic are transmitters to others in the residence, or whether it was the 2 idiots who didn't vaccinate were the transmitters for all the cases present.


It is the vaccinated people that will most likely be the dangerous ones in the future. Playing games with the immune system with the genetic cocktails might just weaken their immune system to other viruses & or more likely to get Alzheimer or get Autism. Maybe they will make the first few batches safe to fool more people. Then move in for the kill @ a latter date.

Those that are getting vaccinated are giving the drug dealers a good incentive to create viruses to create markets for vaccines & putting others in danger of implanted micro chips in the future.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> No idea what you two are talking about. My post was to show a real life situation as of today in a retirement residence.where 2 non-vaccinated people brought the virus into the residence, with a number of vaccinated people testing positive for covid, but with no, or mild, symptoms, and that: 1) we are vulnerable to those who won't vaccinate, 2) that the vaccines work.
> 
> *What is not clear from the current Kelowna situation is those who have tested positive for covid but are asymptomatic are transmitters to others in the residenc*e, or whether it was the 2 idiots who didn't vaccinate were the transmitters for all the cases present.


 ... I think you can assume even "vaccinated" people can transmit the disease but unlikely to die from it since they got protection. 

As for the "unvaccinated" ones, needless to say, once they get the disease, they're on the most risk of dying, let alone transmitting it.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

:) lonewolf said:


> It is the vaccinated people that will most likely be the dangerous ones in the future. Playing games with the immune system with the genetic cocktails might just weaken their immune system to other viruses & or more likely to get Alzheimer or get Autism. *Maybe they will make the first few batches safe to fool more people. Then move in for the kill @ a latter date.*


 ... reminder, this is a "financial" forum, not a conspiracy or a forum on getting high.



> Those that are getting vaccinated are giving the drug dealers a good incentive to create viruses to create markets for vaccines & putting others in danger of implanted micro chips in the future.


 ... aren't you contradicting yourself here with the above? Seems like you can't make up your mind on wanting the population dead or alive.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> And those stats, just like for all reported covid cases, are only the ones they know about. Vaccinated or not, when a large number of active cases are around you need to be careful.


no they aren'r try the Israeli study.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

:) lonewolf said:


> It is the vaccinated people that will most likely be the dangerous ones in the future. Playing games with the immune system with the genetic cocktails might just weaken their immune system to other viruses & or more likely to get Alzheimer or get Autism. Maybe they will make the first few batches safe to fool more people. Then move in for the kill @ a latter date.
> 
> Those that are getting vaccinated are giving the drug dealers a good incentive to create viruses to create markets for vaccines & putting others in danger of implanted micro chips in the future.


Dying from Covid puts a permanent end to the immune system.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> The Israel study showed a 94% protection rate with Pfizer after "both" doses were administered 21 days apart.
> 
> We are a long ways from people having both doses and they won't be 21 days apart. We are basically in unknown territory now.
> 
> ...


Yes if you are that worried stay at home, lock yourself inside and have zero contact with anyone. That should work.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Recently the border agency released some testing data for travellers returning to Canada. The positivity rate for the three test process was .25%.for land and around 1.75 for air. The travellers with air who test positive are placed in detention centres. I believe the total number of travellers during the new restriction period was around 300,000. I believe the positivity rate for domestic testing is running around 9%. Clearly the genie is out of the bottle and the current situation is largely a internal problem. One thing I found really amazing and incompetent is they never complied and tracked the incoming people who were FULLY vaccinated. I would have thought that data would have extremely useful in making decisions on guidance and controls. To me it just another example of the extreme incompetence of the Trudeau government.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Yes if you are that worried stay at home, lock yourself inside and have zero contact with anyone. That should work.


Screw all the people who can't get vaccinated and still need to work to support themselves and their families. Let the bacchanalia begin! Some entitled old people wanna party!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Screw all the people who can't get vaccinated and still need to work to support themselves and their families. Let the bacchanalia begin! Some entitled old people wanna party!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

zinfit said:


> no they aren'r try the Israeli study.


Not sure your point here other than to say that Israel has good data and the CDC does not in this case. Israel did a study and the CDC is just reporting known breakthrough cases which are completely different things.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Not sure your point here other than to say that Israel has good data and the CDC does not in this case. Israel did a study and the CDC is just reporting known breakthrough cases which are completely different things.


My point is the vaccines are incredibility effective in preventing covid and transmitting it. I realize that this has little relevance to Canada because Canada has been cutting corners with the second dose. The CDC data show a big difference between people who have only one dose and the people with 2. The CDC data doesn't include Astrazeneca because it has never been approved for the US. In our case we got both doses this winter in the US. So for me this data is relevant. With what has happened in Canada everything is a crap shoot.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> My point is the vaccines are incredibility effective in preventing covid and transmitting it. I realize that this has little relevance to Canada because Canada has been cutting corners with the second dose. The CDC data show a big difference between people who have only one dose and the people with 2. The CDC data doesn't include astrazeneca because it has never been approved for Canada. In our case we got both doses this winter in the US. So for me this data is relevant. With what has happened in Canada everything is a crap shoot.


Astrezenca has never been approved for the US.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

zinfit said:


> My point is the vaccines are incredibility effective in preventing covid and transmitting it.


Yes they are effective, everyone that can should get one. But ... since they are not 100% protective vaccinated people need to exercise caution and follow the same rules for the non-vaccinated.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Yes they are effective, everyone that can should get one. But ... since they are not 100% protective vaccinated people need to exercise caution and follow the same rules for the non-vaccinated.


who is saying other wise. Notwithstanding Canadians have a lot more to worry about the people who stayed home this winter than the fully vaccination returning snowbirds.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Not sure your point here other than to say that Israel has good data and the CDC does not in this case. Israel did a study and the CDC is just reporting known breakthrough cases which are completely different things.


Sorry the CDC data is a hell of lot better then Trudeau's data. Canada doesn't seem to have problems following the FDA lead on emergency use. In fact to claim to be able to fully monitor the FDA process. Sorry but in my books real time data is the best study. Canada with its navel gazing approach first approved Asterzenca for people over 55 and then changed it to people between 50-60 and they are now saying 30-55.These people don't have clue and are winging. They should just let adults who know the risk make the decision. A novel suggestion for big brother Liberals.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

There has been no cases of vaccinated people


andrewf said:


> Screw all the people who can't get vaccinated and still need to work to support themselves and their families. Let the bacchanalia begin! Some entitled old people wanna party!


I think we want to admit the vaccine works so lets get on with things...theatrical restrictions on vaccinated people is silly.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Very much agree . Deal with the real risk confronting us then getting sidetracked with remote what ifs.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

If the average Canadian had received 2 doses of Pfizer/Moderna we wouldn't be sidetracking ourselves with a discussion about the protection afforded by these vaccines. I think there is a political dimension. The government doesn't want to admit that snowbirds who ignored Canada's caution against travel to the USA are now better protected by having ignoring that caution. Virtually every snowbird was fully vaccinated by February and in their southern communities virtually everyone was vaccinated. The negative reaction to these snowbirds is largely based on resentment.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> If the average Canadian had received 2 doses of Pfizer/Moderna we wouldn't be sidetracking ourselves with a discussion about the protection afforded by these vaccines. I think there is a political dimension. The government doesn't want to admit that snowbirds who ignored Canada's caution against travel to the USA are now better protected by having ignoring that caution. Virtually every snowbird was fully vaccinated by February and in their southern communities virtually everyone was vaccinated. The negative reaction to these snowbirds is largely based on resentment.


"Virtually everyone was vaccinated". 

How is that possible if the US is only now at ~40% vaccination rate (one dose)?









See How Vaccinations Are Going in Your County and State


See where doses have gone, and who is eligible for a shot in each state.



www.nytimes.com


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research


Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. The population estimates we use to calculate per-capita metrics are all based on the last revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects. A full list of our country-specific...




ourworldindata.org





Canada is still just about 4 weeks behind the US in vaccinations.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Canada will end up with a higher vaccination rate than the US because so many people in the US are refusing the vaccination.

Some places in the US have ample supplies of vaccine but nobody is showing up to get it.

At some point I expect the US administration will give up trying to convince people and we may get surplus vaccines in abundance.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research
> 
> 
> Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. The population estimates we use to calculate per-capita metrics are all based on the last revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects. A full list of our country-specific...
> ...


Once they ship then unused stock up here, we'll pass them, I think by the end of this, we're going to end up with some of the better overall COVID numbers.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Vaccine hesitancy is a reason why I support vaccine certificates for travel, large public events and sporting events.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

zinfit said:


> Sorry the CDC data is a hell of lot better then Trudeau's data.


What are you talking about? The discussion was about CDC breakthrough numbers vs the Israel study, Canada has nothing to do with it. 

Also it seems you don't understand the difference between those two but I'll leave you with this a info from the CDC.

_It is important to note that reported vaccine breakthrough cases will represent an undercount._


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> There has been no cases of vaccinated people


Not sure what you mean by this statement above ...



Eder said:


> I think we want to admit the vaccine works so lets get on with things...theatrical restrictions on vaccinated people is silly.


Yes the vaccines appear to work and soon enough we'll be done vaccinating all those that want it. No reason to give "special attention or restriction differences" to those already vaccinated. Lift the general restrictions when the numbers (cases,hospitalizations,deaths) fall to the floor as it's the only true indicator that everything is working correctly.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

So far, only 0.008% of fully vaccinated people have caught Covid in US, CDC says. There has been no cases of vaccinated people transmitting Covid.

I'd say with those results we should be quarantining people that are a threat...not vaccinated people.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> So far, only 0.008% of fully vaccinated people have caught Covid in US, CDC says.


And note that 0.008% you're stating is an underestimate, by how much ... who knows.

From the CDC ...
_It is important to note that reported vaccine breakthrough cases will represent an undercount._



Eder said:


> There has been no cases of vaccinated people transmitting Covid.
> 
> I'd say with those results we should be quarantining people that are a threat...not vaccinated people.


No cases that we know about, and yes, I agree .. it's much less likely to transmit if you're vaccinated. But with this almost over why segregate now? If the vaccines are working the high numbers will fall away soon enough and we can all get back to normal activities.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Eder said:


> So far, only 0.008% of fully vaccinated people have caught Covid in US, CDC says. There has been no cases of vaccinated people transmitting Covid.
> 
> I'd say with those results we should be quarantining people that are a threat...not vaccinated people.


The gullible takes us on step closer.
Brand everyone like a cow with microchips for proof of vaccination & tracking. Have the Gestapo go door to door & put those in internment camps that are a threat to the agenda. What will the power trippers want to do with those that are a threat to them ? To create a market for vaccines repeat the process based on the whims of the drug dealers.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> So far, only 0.008% of fully vaccinated people have caught Covid in US, CDC says. There has been no cases of vaccinated people transmitting Covid.
> 
> I'd say with those results we should be quarantining people that are a threat...not vaccinated people.


Good point. Some have trouble with basic math so I will a run at two stats that are beyond question
In the revelant report the Director of the CDC said 84 million had been fully vaccinated. Out of that group 400 were hospitalized with covid. Most of the hospitalizations involved people who had serious conditions with very weakened immune systems. I think anyone in Canada would be happy if we had numbers like that. These are very strong numbers.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> So far, only 0.008% of fully vaccinated people have caught Covid in US, CDC says. There has been no cases of vaccinated people transmitting Covid.
> 
> I'd say with those results we should be quarantining people that are a threat...not vaccinated people.


How do you square that with all the clinical trial effectiveness data? If this were true, wouldn't the trials have shown the vaccines to be 99.99992% effective? In other words, your interpretation of this factoid is in error. Clinical trial data is far more reliable than an easily misinterpreted CDC factoid.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Well 5800 breakthru cases out of 77million vaccinated are the numbers as of April 15th. Its funny people don't want to believe good news...not even our government.









Vaccines working: Less than 0.01% of 77M fully vaccinated Americans got Covid, CDC says


None of the vaccines are 100% effective, but are working to prevent the spread of the virus.




www.syracuse.com


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> How do you square that with all the clinical trial effectiveness data? If this were true, wouldn't the trials have shown the vaccines to be 99.99992% effective? In other words, your interpretation of this factoid is in error. Clinical trial data is far more reliable than an easily misinterpreted CDC factoid.


Real time experience with millions of people is far better then limited clinical trials involving 20,000 people.Real time experience brought to life the risk of clotting from Astezenca and JNJ. Their clinical trials did not reveal this issue. When CDC says 84 million people have been fully vaccinated and from that pool 400 have been hospitalized what part of that math is stretched or misleading? interesting all of the clinical trials claimed no hospitalizations. In this respect who is right the CDC or the clinical trials?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> Well 5800 breakthru cases out of 77million vaccinated are the numbers as of April 15th. Its funny people don't want to believe good news...not even our government.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am with you on this. If people don't want to believe the good news why are we frantically trying to get people vaccinated? why are these naysayers even taking the vaccine?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> "Virtually everyone was vaccinated".
> 
> How is that possible if the US is only now at ~40% vaccination rate (one dose)?
> 
> ...


"Virtually everyone " was referenced to the returning snowbirds . Based on my personal contacts with this group I believe the quote is correct. Is there a study supporting this ? the answer is no. In my discussions with the CSA they are quite confident that returning snowbirds with rare exception were fully vaccinated.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Real time experience with millions of people is far better then limited clinical trials involving 20,000 people.Real time experience brought to life the risk of clotting from Astezenca and JNJ. Their clinical trials did not reveal this issue. When CDC says 84 million people have been fully vaccinated and from that pool 400 have been hospitalized what part of that math is stretched or misleading? interesting all of the clinical trials claimed no hospitalizations. In this respect who is right the CDC or the clinical trials?


That is moving goal posts. I thought there were only 400 cases of infection? Now it is 400 cases of severe illness requiring hospitalization. Did CDC test all 80M to check for low/asymptomatic infection? Then you haven't a leg to stand on to say that CDC data overrides clinical trial evidence that vaccinated people can still become infected and at >1% rate. Thus the argument for special treatment of travelers is based on incorrect assesment of the facts. We can have a discussion about whether the reduced likeliness of infection for vaccinated people justifies laxer distancing requirements. But is it the highest priority for government to be focusing on traveler convenience at the moment? I'm rather more concerned about children not receiving in-class instruction and small businesses not being able to operate.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> I am with you on this. If people don't want to believe the good news why are we frantically trying to get people vaccinated? why are these naysayers even taking the vaccine?


The vaccines are a good news story. But being vaccinated means that you yourself are largely protected, and others are to some degree protected from them because you are less likely (but only _less _likely) to be infected. However, vaccinated people still pose a risk to non-vaccinated people, especially if they feel invincible and ignore social distancing guidelines. Demanding that society bend to their convenience is entitlement. Lots of other people are being inconvenienced at the moment, from children to their parents to small business owners. You are prioritizing your convenience over the safety of those who haven't had the privilege of being prioritized for vaccination yet. Some of those people are working essential jobs that don't enable them to follow your Marie Antoinette advice of hiding at home.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Real time experience with millions of people is far better then limited clinical trials involving 20,000 people.Real time experience brought to life the risk of clotting from Astezenca and JNJ. Their clinical trials did not reveal this issue. When CDC says 84 million people have been fully vaccinated and from that pool 400 have been hospitalized what part of that math is stretched or misleading? interesting all of the clinical trials claimed no hospitalizations. In this respect who is right the CDC or the clinical trials?


The methodology in a clinical trial is far better. CDC wasn't checking to see how many of those 80M became infected, which is what you have been hanging your hat on. The clinical trials were checking.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> The vaccines are a good news story. But being vaccinated means that you yourself are largely protected, and others are to some degree protected from them because you are less likely (but only _less _likely) to be infected. However, vaccinated people still pose a risk to non-vaccinated people, especially if they feel invincible and ignore social distancing guidelines. Demanding that society bend to their convenience is entitlement. Lots of other people are being inconvenienced at the moment, from children to their parents to small business owners. You are prioritizing your convenience over the safety of those who haven't had the privilege of being prioritized for vaccination yet. Some of those people are working essential jobs that don't enable them to follow your Marie Antoinette advice of hiding at home.


Your position just gives vaccine hesitation people another reason not to get vaccinated. As a matter of public policy we have to decide whether vaccines are good and important. If the answer is yes then let's encourage vaccinations and use incentives and encouragement. I can see you don't like the CDC. I do I think their guidance and reports have compared well to other public health agencies. Their reputation was tarnished by Trump and political interference . The new head has a top notch background.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think the incentive of being far less likely to experience serious illness should be enough. Young people can still get serious, long term disability from COVID even if they are never hospitalized or die from the disease.

I have no issue with the CDC. People are using CDC statements and warping them to suit their political narrative. CDC only said that they had a few thousand breakthrough cases reported to them. Everything layered on top of that is layperson analysis. The CDC spokesperson has said that it is important for vaccinated people to continue masking/social distancing around people who are not vaccinated. That is because vaccinated people still represent a vector of transmission. You are picking and choosing what guidance you take from the CDC to suit your desires.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> I think the incentive of being far less likely to experience serious illness should be enough. Young people can still get serious, long term disability from COVID even if they are never hospitalized or die from the disease.
> 
> I have no issue with the CDC. People are using CDC statements and warping them to suit their political narrative. CDC only said that they had a few thousand breakthrough cases reported to them. Everything layered on top of that is layperson analysis. The CDC spokesperson has said that it is important for vaccinated people to continue masking/social distancing around people who are not vaccinated. That is because vaccinated people still represent a vector of transmission. You are picking and choosing what guidance you take from the CDC to suit your desires.


 Their information fits very accurately to what I have seen in the county I winter in. That county had been one of the US's biggest hot spots. With a population of 1000,000 it has ran at 1200 cases per time during peak times . It is now running at 60-70 . The people in the county have diabetes at 4 times higher the national rate. On some index's it has been described as the unhealthiest population in the USA. The CDC does get the data on covid hospitalizations and the vaccination numbers. This was understood with my vaccination documents that if I encountered covid or other conditions that information would be going to the CDC. I wish I had that sort of confidence with Health Canada,. I was dismayed to discover they weren't collecting the vaccination information on returning travellers. Anyways I will leave this argument to you and you can comfort yourself with the fumbling Health Canada guidance.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

You are still confusing hospitalization and infection. And infection is the problem, because infected people can transmit to others.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> You are still confusing hospitalization and infection. And infection is the problem, because infected people can transmit to others.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

No I am not. The infection rate in this county has dropped from an high peak average period of 1200 per day to the current average of 70. Its lot better to have the 70 rate rate if you are worried about people spreading covid . And the trend is clearly heading south. Incidentally this county has 4 large free drive through testing clinics at no cost and no conditions required. I suspect their testing results are a better representation. In the provinces you basically have to show symptoms or be in contact with some covid person to access testing.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> No I am not. The infection rate in this county has dropped from an high peak average period of 1200 per day to the current average of 70. Its lot better to have the 70 rate rate if you are worried about people spreading covid . And the trend is clearly heading south. Incidentally this county has 4 large free drive through testing clinics at no cost and no conditions required. I suspect their testing results are a better representation. In the provinces you basically have to show symptoms or be in contact with some covid person to access testing.


This is, of course, not true. Lots of people get asymptomatic testing at pharmacies. Of course, asymptomatic people are much less likely to get tested.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Meanwhile in the real world

The European Union plans to open its doors this summer to U.S. tourists who’ve been fully vaccinated against Covid-19, the New York Times reported, citing the head of the bloc’s executive body.

Last week, Greece said it would start welcoming U.S. travelers Monday if they have proof of vaccination or a negative Covid-19 test, it said.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> This is, of course, not true. Lots of people get asymptomatic testing at pharmacies. Of course, asymptomatic people are much less likely to get tested.


might be true bt it isn't cheap. In Alberta the conditions for accessing free government testing is quite restrictive and requires a quarantine after. In Texas the big pharmacy chains and many independents do a lot of testing for people covered by insurance. Testing resources in Texas are extensive.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> Meanwhile in the real world
> 
> The European Union plans to open its doors this summer to U.S. tourists who’ve been fully vaccinated against Covid-19, the New York Times reported, citing the head of the bloc’s executive body.
> 
> Last week, Greece said it would start welcoming U.S. travelers Monday if they have proof of vaccination or a negative Covid-19 test, it said.


 Australia , Israel, Greece, Ireland , the EU have opened up to vaccinated travellers . Australia and Israel had the most restrictive travel bans and restrictions and have now come to the conclusion that fully vaccinated people present a very rare or low risk of spreading covid. I take a lot of comfort in the Israel decision because I am confident that their public health authorities are miles ahead of Dr Tam and her gang go bumblers.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Why is Israel better? They had much higher rates of infection throughout.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Israel remains closed to international travelers. All flights from India are blocked.

They are planning on opening up to small groups of pre-approved travelers who are related to Israeli citizens on May 23 and plan to expand the entries further in the following months, depending on the situation at that time.

People entering must have a valid vaccination certificate, get a PCR test before boarding the aircraft, and get a serological test upon arrival.

They will have to quarantine 10-14 days, regardless of vaccination or testing.

They are still a month away from re-opening the border. We shall see if they do or not.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Why is Israel better? They had much higher rates of infection throughout.


Canada has about 8000 cases per day. Last daily amount I found for Israel was 167. I fully understand thatIsrael has some high numbers in the past but we now in the present and 167 sounds like a great number.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Canada has about 8000 cases per day. Last daily amount I found for Israel was 167. I fully understand thatIsrael has some high numbers in the past but we now in the present and 167 sounds like a great number.


Seems like you're criticizing Tam et al based on the past, not the present. Look, you're going to confirm what you want to believe. That's human nature.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Seems like you're criticizing Tam et al based on the past, not the present. Look, you're going to confirm what you want to believe. That's human nature.


In terms of confirming want you want to believe you are doing a pretty good case for yourself. For Dr Tam I can look no further then her failure to track ingoing travellers who have been vaccinated and her delay in banning travel from hot spots like India. The story today with Health Canada hasn't changed. The cattle are out of the barn again.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Seems like you're criticizing Tam et al based on the past, not the present. Look, you're going to confirm what you want to believe. That's human nature.


She still hasn't gotten Trudeau to close the borders, and it turns out we have the Indian variant spread across the country.
I they closed the borders last year, it might not have gotten this bad.
If they closed them a bit later, maybe we wouldn't have so much of the UK variant.
If the closed them even later, maybe we wouldn't have the Indian variant.

It seems that Tam has totally failed on the most basic and obvious steps of how to handle a pandemic, isn't she supposed to be the expert?


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> She still hasn't gotten Trudeau to close the borders, and it turns out we have the Indian variant spread across the country.
> I they closed the borders last year, it might not have gotten this bad.
> If they closed them a bit later, maybe we wouldn't have so much of the UK variant.
> If the closed them even later, maybe we wouldn't have the Indian variant.
> ...


You want to close the boarders & your not even stating how much different the virus is in percentage terms. Gates has a monopoly on world health wants the economy shut till everyone is vaccinated with his genetic cocktails. There are scientists that are saying the difference in the variant is very small & is being over blown. The only percentage number I have heard is from Michael Yeadon @ .3%. This is not a big enough difference to effect immunity from those that have had the virus. Have to do the research yourself because my links get removed since they do not agree with the media


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> She still hasn't gotten Trudeau to close the borders, and it turns out we have the Indian variant spread across the country.
> I they closed the borders last year, it might not have gotten this bad.
> If they closed them a bit later, maybe we wouldn't have so much of the UK variant.
> If the closed them even later, maybe we wouldn't have the Indian variant.
> ...


We have conservatives on both sides of this. Eder/zinfit want laissez faire, MrMatt wants everything locked down. I don't think closing the borders entirely is needed. We just need to properly enforce quarantine.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Alberta has outbreaks in the area around Fort McMurray.

India is well beyond their capacity to handle it. They are burning bodies in mass graves now. Ontario is begging for help.

Other countries are having outbreaks and new waves. We don't really know what is going on in Russia, China, North Korea and some other countries where nobody is keeping track......like Somalia and most of Africa.

In our area of Canada the local health authority isn't contact tracing anymore. They can't keep up with the infections.

I don't know why people can't seem to comprehend we are in a global crisis and the virus is mutating faster than we can keep up with it.

One of these mutations could very well render all the vaccinations useless, and then what ?

We need to stop the spread of the virus so it doesn't continue to mutate. Vaccines, social distancing, lock downs.......whatever it takes.

Data is fine and all......but it is yesterday's news.

We are only one mutation away from a cataclysmic world event. People need to smarten up or get ready to face the consequences of their stupidity.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> We have conservatives on both sides of this. Eder/zinfit want laissez faire, MrMatt wants everything locked down. I don't think closing the borders entirely is needed. We just need to properly enforce quarantine.


I think a properly enforced quarantine would be sufficient, however since they're unwilling to do so, I say shut down travel.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> We have conservatives on both sides of this. Eder/zinfit want laissez faire, MrMatt wants everything locked down. I don't think closing the borders entirely is needed. We just need to properly enforce quarantine.


No I agree with the quarantine process I just think fully vaccinated people shouldn't be subject to it. In regard to the mutants lets be clear the geographic names are misleading . Every expert in the field has been saying covid19 is mutating on its own and it is erroneous to assume they are being imported from certain countries. As an expert from Simon Fraser said the world is a hotspot and there isn't any escaping the mutants. Canada is a good example we may-be the leader in multiple mutants. Anyways the solution to living with this covid is vaccinations. I don't need a peer review study officially approved by the FDA to understand that the vaccines have been very effective..The best example is Israel with daily counts in the 160 range and dropping. If Canada had that level of new daily cases we would be talking a 670 per day instead of 8000 per day. Let's quit trying to deny the effectiveness of vaccines and lift the restrictions for fully vaccinated people.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> No I agree with the quarantine process I just think fully vaccinated people shouldn't be subject to it. In regard to the mutants lets be clear the geographic names are misleading . Every expert in the field has been saying covid19 is mutating on its own and it is erroneous to assume they are being imported from certain countries. As an expert from Simon Fraser said the world is a hotspot and there isn't any escaping the mutants. Canada is a good example we may-be the leader in multiple mutants. Anyways the solution to living with this covid is vaccinations. I don't need a peer review study officially approved by the FDA to understand that the vaccines have been very effective..The best example is Israel with daily counts in the 160 range and dropping. If Canada had that level of new daily cases we would be talking a 670 per day instead of 8000 per day. Let's quit trying to deny the effectiveness of vaccines and lift the restrictions for fully vaccinated people.



I think once we know that the vaccines are sufficiently effective against the variants we can relax the quarantine restrictions on those individuals.
There is some evidence that COVID19 antibodies aren't very effective against the variants, this is a real concern.








Pfizer jab may not be as potent against B.1.351 variant


New research finds that the Pfizer jab is not as potent against the B.1.351 variant of the new coronavirus as it is against the B.1.1.7 or original variant.




www.medicalnewstoday.com





For now, while we are at a crisis level, I think we should remain cautious, and quarantine everyone until we are sure they aren't a carrier. Since we don't know the effectiveness of the current vaccines against the variants, that means anyone could be a carrier.

Also variants happen everywhere, that's true, but if we restrict travel, we can reduce the number of variants that are here. India is getting hundreds of thousands of new cases per day, they are going to generate far more variants than Canada. 



I think Israel is taking a prudent approach as well. They have a mandatory quarantine, that can be shorted if you are not a carrier. I think we should do this in Canada. I've been saying this since March 2020.
"The mandatory isolation duration is 14 days; it can be shortened to 10 days if two test results taken in the time intervals set in the protocol are negative."


https://www.gov.il/en/departments/guides/flying-to-israel-guidlines?chapterIndex=3


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

zinfit said:


> Let's quit trying to deny the effectiveness of vaccines and lift the restrictions for fully vaccinated people.


I don't think many will deny vaccine effectiveness but let the case numbers decide on when to lift restrictions. If vaccines are truely working we should be all clear not long from now.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> I don't think many will deny vaccine effectiveness but let the case numbers decide on when to lift restrictions. If vaccines are truely working we should be all clear not long from now.


The CDC says one shot doesn't provide an adequate level of production. They are seeing people with one shot getting covid. The story is much different with the second shot. The second shot may take a long time in Canada and it will well beyond the recommended time interval. I guess with this approach Canada is making Canadians guinea pigs in this experiment.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

zinfit said:


> ........The story is much different with the second shot. The second shot may take a long time in Canada and it will well beyond the recommended time interval. I guess with this approach Canada is making Canadians guinea pigs in this experiment.


It is a population wide experiment that almost everyone in Canada is taking part.

The label on the bottle of Pfizer says second dose in 21 days. Seems simple enough.

Canada says, lets extend that to 4 months because we screwed up on procuring enough vaccine and we don't want to look bad.

I'm sure it will all work out.

ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> The CDC says one shot doesn't provide an adequate level of production. They are seeing people with one shot getting covid. The story is much different with the second shot. The second shot may take a long time in Canada and it will well beyond the recommended time interval. I guess with this approach Canada is making Canadians guinea pigs in this experiment.


Ok, so we get our second shot late, maybe we'll need a third shot.
These ideas are nice, but what we need to do is get the third wave under control and prevent a fourth wave.

Honestly I want the deaths to send, and hospital overload to get under control. We we don't want to have thousands in hospitals in perpetuity.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

zinfit said:


> The CDC says one shot doesn't provide an adequate level of production. They are seeing people with one shot getting covid.


The CDC is saying people with two shots (fully vaccinated) are getting covid.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I think once we know that the vaccines are sufficiently effective against the variants we can relax the quarantine restrictions on those individuals.
> There is some evidence that COVID19 antibodies aren't very effective against the variants, this is a real concern.
> 
> 
> ...


That is for returning citizens only.

International travelers have to have prior approval from the government to travel there.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

About 0.008% of *people* *vaccinated* in the US have had these "breakthrough infections."


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> About 0.008% of *people* *vaccinated* in the US have had these "breakthrough infections."


That they know of .... are we going around in circles?


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Well the borders are closed to all travellers other than Canadians ...oh...with the exception of various curling teams from around the world ...that seems essential to Trudeau apparently. Two have already tested positive for Covid.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

SwitchHealth is in charge of the on-line -program for the third and final test for in coming travellers. Based on the numbers they are processing per day they have to be using thousands of nurses. Every on line test uses a RN. It they simply looked at the so -called liberal principle of "the greatest good for the greatest many" how about exempting vaccinating people from the third test and freeing up nurses for badly needed resources with ICU units? I am not in a conflict because I completed the final test.


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> That is for returning citizens only.
> 
> International travelers have to have prior approval from the government to travel there.


I believe Israel allows international travellers who have been fully vaccinated. The information on the SA variant is informative but I think you have to read the full article. I figure this Pfizer vaccine provides a level similar to JNJ. Its hard to score 95% plus every time. I don't think the SA variant has emerged as much as other mutations. We can only hope that the vaccines will provide effective protection against all of the variants. The data on Astrazenca with the SA is not encouraging. IT might be useless with that mutant.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> Well the borders are closed to all travellers other than Canadians ...oh...with the exception of various curling teams from around the world ...that seems essential to Trudeau apparently. Two have already tested positive for Covid.


+1 for the quarantine hotel method ... it works!


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> The CDC is saying people with two shots (fully vaccinated) are getting covid.


yes but at very extremely low numbers and the cases are very mild. Do we focus on the the glass 99.9% full or the .01? This is good news its means the vaccines are working. I might be making a mistakes because a number of posters have repeatly stated the CDC numbers are questionable. I am certainly not in that camp. They have some of the worlds best experts on pandemics and transmissions in that agency. I recent times they were in the forefront of combatting Elboa and HIV.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> +1 for the quarantine hotel method ... it works!


were any vaccinated? i am guessing the answer is zero.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> The CDC is saying people with two shots (fully vaccinated) are getting covid.


This is what all the clinical trial data shows. They can get infected, probably at a lower rate, and are far less likely to develop serious illness.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> yes but at very extremely low numbers and the cases are very mild. Do we focus on the the glass 99.9% full or the .01? This is good news its means the vaccines are working. I might be making a mistakes because a number of posters have repeatly stated the CDC numbers are questionable. I am certainly not in that camp. They have some of the worlds best experts on pandemics and transmissions in that agency. I recent times they were in the forefront of combatting Elboa and HIV.


If it were 99.9%, maybe. But the clinical trial data is more 90% full.

Check out this story:








One Covid vaccine cuts infection rate in all age groups


Real-world data found the AZ and Pfizer jabs worked equally well in over-75s and younger people.



www.bbc.com






> [...]
> In the first study, people who had been vaccinated with a single dose of either the Oxford-AstraZeneca or Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines were 65% less likely to get a new Covid infection.
> [...]
> *Those who had received a second vaccine dose of Pfizer were 90% less likely to be infected. *The same calculation could not be made for AZ, because too few people in the study had received a second dose as its rollout started later.


This idea that vaccinated people do not become infected is wrong. Perhaps dangerously so.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

zinfit said:


> I might be making a mistakes because a number of posters have repeatly stated the CDC numbers are questionable. I am certainly not in that camp.


You definitely should be in "that camp" as the CDC themselves says their numbers are understated.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> You definitely should be in "that camp" as the CDC themselves says their numbers are understated.


I don't think that means their numbers are questionable.
Data collection isn't perfect, but I think the CDC along with many other countries have reasonably good data.

it isn't like India, where they KNOW the data isn't capturing the situation, or other countries where it is thought to be heavily manipulated by the government.

There are issues with the US data, but being bad data isn't one of them.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Require COVID-19 tests for domestic air travellers, Ford government tells feds

I thought "all (international & domestic)" air-travellers required a Covid test prior to being eligible to board a plane. I guess not based on this latest news / above link. Watch the uproars.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> Require COVID-19 tests for domestic air travellers, Ford government tells feds
> 
> I thought "all (international & domestic)" air-travellers required a Covid test prior to being eligible to board a plane. I guess not based on this latest news / above link. Watch the uproars.


it's well documented that Trudeau lies, or misleads.
He says things are happening, then when people look into it, they're not.

FOI requests are being delayed, denied, and pre-released to the government departments so they can strategize their response.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

A politician that dissembles, who'd have thought?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> A politician that dissembles, who'd have thought?


I just think Trudeau is particularly blatant, almost as bad as McGuinty.

Typically Canadian politicians aren't so blatant that they are lying and there is nothing you can do about it, it's part of the reason our politics is relatively friendly.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> I don't think that means their numbers are questionable.
> Data collection isn't perfect, but I think the CDC along with many other countries have reasonably good data.


I think you're missing the point, CDC themselves say that. So they report a number like 5800 cases that very well might be 580,000 cases or something else ... they freely admit the count is low. Not knocking the CDC here, they stated the numbers correctly and put the discalimer in that the count is no doubt lower than what's really out there.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> I think you're missing the point, CDC themselves say that. So they report a number like 5800 cases that very well might be 580,000 cases or something else ... they freely admit the count is low. Not knocking the CDC here, they stated the numbers correctly and put the discalimer in that the count is no doubt lower than what's really out there.


I understand.
They claim 32.2M cases, I agree that it is likely an undercount.
However I don't think they're off by an order of magitude (322 million is almost the entire US population).

Also case numbers are pretty much guaranteed to be under counted due to sampling bias, and in the case of COVID with widespread asymptomatic cases it's logically going to be larger than "normal". This is a common problem with population heath, which is why Public Health is such an interesting field, you KNOW you're working with bad data. The statistical tools being developed are amazing. Unfortunately they're also complex

I think the case counts in the US are actually going to be very good due to the relatively well developed testing and reporting systems. Maybe Taiwan did a better job, but I think the US is comparable or likely better than many other G20 nations.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> I understand.
> They claim 32.2M cases, I agree that it is likely an undercount.
> However I don't think they're off by an order of magitude (322 million is almost the entire US population).


We are discussing the number of "breakthrough" cases of fully vaccinated not total amount of covid cases.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> I think you're missing the point, CDC themselves say that. So they report a number like 5800 cases that very well might be 580,000 cases or something else ... they freely admit the count is low. Not knocking the CDC here, they stated the numbers correctly and put the discalimer in that the count is no doubt lower than what's really out there.


This is why I haven't criticized the CDC, but the people misinterpreting this factoid. Maybe my only critique of the CDC on this is publishing an easily misinterpreted statement.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> This is why I haven't criticized the CDC, but the people misinterpreting this factoid. Maybe my only critique of the CDC on this is publishing an easily misinterpreted statement.


People misinterpret stuff all the time.
I think the blame is with them, not for the CDC correctly disclosing the issue.

It's a common problem that people fail to disclose these things.
In fact it's an easy way to discount shoddy politically motivated research.

If a real world study doesn't have shortcomings, limits, or negative implications, it is likely poor research.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Seems like you're criticizing Tam et al based on the past, not the present. Look, you're going to confirm what you want to believe. That's human nature.


A couple of these guys on this board just want to do their vacation travels.

Our country has bigger problems to deal with than the travel fun of a few people. It's quite literally at the bottom of the list of priorities and I don't want any health official taking time from other urgent tasks to try dealing with this *minor* problem.

It's like we're in the middle of a war, and a few people are complaining that they're having trouble booking Caribbean resorts. Yeah, that will happen during wartime.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree, it's a case of world's tiniest violin for people whose recreational travel plans are inconvenienced.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

We need to stop the theatrics although that is hard for a drama teacher.

The USA most likely will reopen its border to Canada by July as there is more & more pressure down here to do so.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Closing the boarder censors the truth since those from other countries can not tell what is really going on. google "Martin Armstrong In India people are attacking the vaccine Nazis." could not get the video to download. There seams to be a cover up in India where the people that are dying are the ones that have been vaccinated & not from Covid. For population control they can play games with who they give the kill shot to & what is put into the genetic cocktails.


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## Bananatron (Jan 18, 2021)

:) lonewolf said:


> Closing the boarder censors the truth since those from other countries can not tell what is really going on. google "Martin Armstrong In India people are attacking the vaccine Nazis." could not get the video to download. There seams to be a cover up in India where the people that are dying are the ones that have been vaccinated & not from Covid. For population control they can play games with who they give the kill shot to & what is put into the genetic cocktails.


So the idea is mass population control through the use of deadly vaccines for a virus that never really existed?

A brilliant plan, except for the whole part about people eventually catching on that the vaccine is killing people in abundance.

And I have to say, closing the borders to silence these people is equally brilliant, because, how else could they be heard if they are not allowed to step off a plane and speak face to face with a Canadian citizen?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I wonder about Switch Health. They were given a 100 million contract to do the covid testing under the Trudeau travel restrictions. They were only incorporated in 2020. Their experience in testing looked skimpy at best. The leading figures don't appear to have experience in this area. Global TV has done two stories of the brutal experiences people have had with their on-line testing and testing. I can totally agree . I am on day 17 under the quarantine because I haven't received my test results. After a 5 hour wait on day 8 I did the on line kit and had my sample shipped by courier to a lab in Calgary. Since then I have had 13 lengthy talks with a variety of people. Most of those contacts had at least 50 minute wait times. On day 14 I got a call from a guy from the government. He knew I didn't have my results and reminded me that until I did I must remain in quarantine. He said their was a good chance a surveillance officer would be checking me out in person. On my last call to SH they told me that they would no longer take any more questions as this matter was under investigation. To be perfectly candidate I would have real doubts about the reliability or accuracy of anything from this organization. I have taken it upon myself to get a test from a well known tester in Calgary. I paid extra and they say I will have my results in 4 hours. I get into my car. Park in their parking lot then phone them and I am then directed to a drive through site for testing. . I drive back home to await the results. I should have done that on day one. Anyways my assessment of SwitchHealth is brutal. I would like to know their connection to the corrupt Liberal government and whether this was a sole sourced contract.I fully expect Global will doing more on this story and they should. CTV and CBC being paid disciples of the Trudeau government will ignore the story.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Figures...did anyone actually physically show up?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Headlines like this is what upsets people….









More than 5,000 international air travellers positive for COVID-19 since February


OTTAWA — More than 5,000 people tested positive for COVID-19 after flying back to Canada since mandatory quarantine hotels began in late February.




o.canada.com


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> Figures...did anyone actually physically show up?


Not yet
I.wish they would ,


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Money172375 said:


> Headlines like this is what upsets people….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would have an excellent way of assessing the effectiveness of the vaccines.. the dummies failed to collect that vital data.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Money172375 said:


> Headlines like this is what upsets people….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just shows how weak the virus is. The virus is so weak 5000 people had the virus & were able to still get on a plane. Though with 97% false positive only 3 out of every 100 had the virus. Japan is having more deaths from suicide then from Covid.

LOL listen to your lying dictators pay thousands of dollars to torture your self with solitary confinement. Parents go to prison for locking their kids in the basement. Yet those that cant hold themselves up & are like kids that are dependent want the government to look after them by locking them down. So they can not go outside & see the amazing light shows of the universe.

The result of not holding your self up & wanting to follow your dictators
March to Stalin, hail Hitler, Lock your self in the basement, wear your filthy useless mask, once you have been brain washed go get you kill shot


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> Not yet
> I.wish they would ,


Land crossing is much lower. Something like .25 is the number I recall. A large percentage were snowbirds and almost everyone of them was fully vaccinated. The people who tested positive at the airports are placed in government detention centers.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Headlines like this is what upsets people….
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats about 10x the rate that travellers to Hawaii had and Hawaii was doing it long before vaccines. Are the countries other than USA providing the majority of those cases...or?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In many places, local testing was sporadic or non-existent. I think the data reflects that reality and is unreliable.

Hospitalizations and deaths are difficult enough to track thoroughly. Tracking testing data is an exercise in futility.

What we know for certain is what the doctors and nurses in the ICU's tell us they witness every day.

Rising numbers of younger, healthy people who become very sick from the virus variants and require intensive medical intervention.

We need to proceed based on the indisputable information we know. The virus spreads quickly when there is an opportunity to do so.

We need to continue to wear masks and social distance. All social events, inside dining, and travel must remain restricted.

At this point in time, we don't know if the vaccines work well against the variants, or if a new variant is on the horizon.

We do know that if we don't control the spread of this virus it will continue to mutate and all it takes is one mutation to set us back to the start again.

We shouldn't continue to rely on good luck to keep us safe. We are past that stage.


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> I wonder about Switch Health. They were given a 100 million contract to do the covid testing under the Trudeau travel restrictions. They were only incorporated in 2020. Their experience in testing looked skimpy at best. The leading figures don't appear to have experience in this area. Global TV has done two stories of the brutal experiences people have had with their on-line testing and testing. I can totally agree . I am on day 17 under the quarantine because I haven't received my test results. After a 5 hour wait on day 8 I did the on line kit and had my sample shipped by courier to a lab in Calgary. Since then I have had 13 lengthy talks with a variety of people. Most of those contacts had at least 50 minute wait times. On day 14 I got a call from a guy from the government. He knew I didn't have my results and reminded me that until I did I must remain in quarantine. He said their was a good chance a surveillance officer would be checking me out in person. On my last call to SH they told me that they would no longer take any more questions as this matter was under investigation. To be perfectly candidate I would have real doubts about the reliability or accuracy of anything from this organization. I have taken it upon myself to get a test from a well known tester in Calgary. I paid extra and they say I will have my results in 4 hours. I get into my car. Park in their parking lot then phone them and I am then directed to a drive through site for testing. . I drive back home to await the results. I should have done that on day one. Anyways my assessment of SwitchHealth is brutal. I would like to know their connection to the corrupt Liberal government and whether this was a sole sourced contract.I fully expect Global will doing more on this story and they should. CTV and CBC being paid disciples of the Trudeau government will ignore the story.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

My sample was delivered to Switch Health on April 26. I just received an email telling me I should get my test results on May8. I broke quarantine yesterday by going to a Calgary lab. The covid test sample was taken at 8:30 AM and I had my results by 11:00. The government should be terminating the contract with Switch Health and engaging the provincial testing agencies in administering these tests. Given my experience and thousands of others I have real doubt about the accuracy and reliability of their testing. This company is inexperienced and totally incompetent.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

That's pathetic...turn around PCR test times should be about 8 hours. Maybe it run by JT's cousins or something.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> That's pathetic...turn around PCR test times should be about 8 hours. Maybe it run by JT's cousins or something.


They were incorporated in 2020 and they don't appear to have proven track record. The founders don't appear to have a background in lab work. They were given the exclusive contract for the travellers quarantine program for a 100 million. Sounds and smells like a Liberal inside job. Curious does the sample still provide a reliable sample when it has been sitting around for 14 days?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

zinfit said:


> Curious does the sample still provide a reliable sample when it has been sitting around for 14 days?


Maybe they are just holding onto the results for 14 days?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Maybe they are just holding onto the results for 14 days?


Doesn't make sense . If true why not report to the client?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Maybe they are just holding onto the results for 14 days?


Just received the Switch Health results. My sample's testing was completed at 5:11 May 4. My sample was extracted and placed in a vile on April 24 at 18:13. That is a 10 day interval . What ever happened to the principle of " the greatest good for the greatest many"? Why use stretched labs and resources on a third test for fully vaccinated people? why employ up to a hundred nurses to test fully vaccinated people? that is enough to man 25 ICUs. I guess Trudeau knows more than the CDC, Israel, Australia and many other countries who have lifted testing and quarantining for fully vaccinated people? Real time evidence is showing that a full vaccination with Moderna and Pfizer is extremely protective and virtually eliminates the risk of any transmission.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A vaccinated man died in New Brunswick from the SA variant. Vaccinations may not be the "go free" passport that you believe they are.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> A vaccinated man died in New Brunswick from the SA variant. Vaccinations may not be the "go free" passport that you believe they are.


Sometimes people get killed in car crashes. Sometimes people get killed when they out for a walk. I bet this guy got the Astrezenca vaccine. It is well know that it offers no protection against the SA variant. That vaccine has not been approved for the USA. With people with one shot only they are still vulnerable but at a lower rate. Travel restrictions should be lifted for fully vaccinated people .Would like more details about this person.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> A vaccinated man died in New Brunswick from the SA variant. Vaccinations may not be the "go free" passport that you believe they are.


At the very least two covid tests should be plenty for fully vaccinated person. The third test serves no useful person and it wastes health resources.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

People are boarding aircraft testing negative and arriving at their destination testing positive. Testing is an indication but is not fail safe.

The only measure that works is lock downs, which Alberta just finally announced. Now the question is of enforcement.

Our sister in law and family live in Edmonton and were staunch Conservatives for decades.

They now tell us the NDP will win the next election in Alberta, due to Premier Kenny's mishandling of the virus response.

Like some other Provincial Premiers he has failed in his highest priority of protecting the people.

There are now calls for a halt to unnecessary domestic travel. Provincial borders are going to end up being closed.

We need to face the reality. The virus is mutating and spreading. We are one variation away from a global catastrophe.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> People are boarding aircraft testing negative and arriving at their destination testing positive. Testing is an indication but is not fail safe.
> 
> The only measure that works is lock downs, which Alberta just finally announced. Now the question is of enforcement.
> 
> ...





sags said:


> A vaccinated man died in New Brunswick from the SA variant. Vaccinations may not be the "go free" passport that you believe they are.


This article brings some science and statical analysis. The second dose for Moderna and Pfizer. results in a much superior level of protection. The Houston Methodist study is pretty illuminating along with the Israeli experience. A single case or a freak outlier is not the basis to build public health measures.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The science and statistics are not relevant to the variants.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> The science and statistics are not relevant to the variants.


You should have been watching the CBC interview with the German scientists who developed the Pfizer vaccine. He says his work is showing the vaccine is effective against all the variants. Clearly in countries with a high level of fully vaccinated people the variants are not near the problem we find in Canada. Notwithstanding this diversion Trudeau's testing program for travellers is pathetic and highly questionable.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Sometimes people get killed in car crashes. Sometimes people get killed when they out for a walk. I bet this guy got the Astrezenca vaccine. It is well know that it offers no protection against the SA variant. That vaccine has not been approved for the USA. With people with one shot only they are still vulnerable but at a lower rate. Travel restrictions should be lifted for fully vaccinated people .Would like more details about this person.


Maybe when we have a lower baseline rate of infection. Fully vaccinated people still have 10% risk of becoming infected (and thereby spreading further).


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Actually your math is faulty.... I would point out the problem but lets see if others do.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Maybe when we have a lower baseline rate of infection. Fully vaccinated people still have 10% risk of becoming infected (and thereby spreading further).


But the R value is slightly over 1, you get the R value to much less than 1 and it will die out quickly


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

For those who can't wait to get out of this country or in desperate need of a vacation, here's your chance ... to visit Italy who's welcoming all tourists with open arms as early as May 2021:

Italy will reopen for tourists in mid-May, Prime Minister Draghi said

Not sure if you can return without going into quarantine hotel though.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> For those who can't wait to get out of this country or in desperate need of a vacation, here's your chance ... to visit Italy who's welcoming all tourists with open arms as early as May 2021:
> 
> Italy will reopen for tourists in mid-May, Prime Minister Draghi said
> 
> Not sure if you can return without going into quarantine hotel though.


Looks like it’s only travellers from the EU. Darn.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Then find a way to get to another open EU country and hop onwards to Italy.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Trudeau said yesterday he thinks travel should be open by summer. Most of the EU will be open to fully vaccinated travellers other than those that got the AZ.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Eder said:


> Trudeau said yesterday he thinks travel should be open by summer. Most of the EU will be open to fully vaccinated travellers other than those that got the AZ.


Do you have a source for the AZ restriction? Would like to read more.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

He was quoted in the G&M yesterday while commenting on joining the EU plan for covid passports, if that's what you are asking. I link the article if I come on it again.









EU plans summer opening for vaccinated tourists


After nearly a year of closed borders, the European Union proposes opening up to fully vaccinated global travelers, a move that should help revive tourism industry fortunes.




www.cnn.com





The proposals, published by the European Commission, advised that arrivals must have been inoculated 14 days before arrival with a vaccine from its approved list, including BioNTech/Pfizer, Oxford University/AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson and Moderna.

Got it although its same article, just different online source...









Canada will align policy on 'vaccine passports' with international allies: Trudeau


Canada may require international travellers to prove they were vaccinated against COVID−19 before they can enter the country, Prime Minister Jus.




www.kelownanow.com





Trudeau said Canadians could begin travelling outside the country again by summer.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> But the R value is slightly over 1, you get the R value to much less than 1 and it will die out quickly


Let's wait for the the R value to fall and number of cases to quickly decline before we start throwing things open.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Let's wait for the the R value to fall and number of cases to quickly decline before we start throwing things open.


Absolutely, but it should slow and things should get better.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Eder said:


> The proposals, published by the European Commission, advised that arrivals must have been inoculated 14 days before arrival with a vaccine from its approved list, including BioNTech/Pfizer, Oxford University/AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson and Moderna.


So not excluding the AZ, then.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Spudd said:


> So not excluding the AZ, then.


The way I read it is for people that received a vaccine approved for use in the EU. They may change obviously as all the Russian & Chinese will be excluded.

Fwiw I have no intention of ever hitting up Europe again...back to the Baja is my Shangri-La...no BS vaccine or testing requirements, just great fish tacos.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Eder said:


> The way I read it is for people that received a vaccine approved for use in the EU. They may change obviously as all the Russian & Chinese will be excluded.
> 
> Fwiw I have no intention of ever hitting up Europe again...back to the Baja is my Shangri-La...no BS vaccine or testing requirements, just great fish tacos.


My point was just that you have the AZ in your list of approved ones, haha. You might have overlooked it because they called it Oxford/AstraZeneca but it's the same one.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Lol I never noticed that...when the articles about this were 1st coming out AZ wasn't on the list...I assumed it was because of the EU halt on it.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Eder said:


> He was quoted in the G&M yesterday while commenting on joining the EU plan for covid passports, if that's what you are asking. I link the article if I come on it again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok. Thanks. I thought you meant people fully vaccinated with AZ would not be eligible for the passport.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Not sure why people would want to restrict travel for fully vaccinated Mrna vaccinated travellers.. These folks are fully protected at a level of 97% and for the other 3% they have very mild cases of covid which is unlikely to be a transmitter. I think people in Canada would be dancing in the streets in celebration if covid was reduced by 97%. Nothing in life is risk free. Reducing covid by 97% is about as good as one can expect. It is becoming clear that the Mnra vaccines are protective against all of the mutants. The Houston Methodist study and the Israeli experience is pretty strong. Health Canada is a poor source as the AG pointed out. They had an excellent opportunity over the past 4 months to track many thousands of fully vaccinated incoming travellers and they failed to that. I have little confidence in that agency. They have been foot draggers par excellence.










5


----------



## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

zinfit said:


> Not sure why people would want to restrict travel for fully vaccinated Mrna vaccinated travellers.. These folks are fully protected at a level of 97% and for the other 3% they have very mild cases of covid which is unlikely to be a transmitter. I think people in Canada would be dancing in the streets in celebration if covid was reduced by 97%. Nothing in life is risk free. Reducing covid by 97% is about as good as one can expect. It is becoming clear that the Mnra vaccines are protective against all of the mutants. The Houston Methodist study and the Israeli experience is pretty strong. Health Canada is a poor source as the AG pointed out. They had an excellent opportunity over the past 4 months to track many thousands of fully vaccinated incoming travellers and they failed to that. I have little confidence in that agency. They have been foot draggers par excellence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The 95% number was by press release which means nothing. Having had the virus offers more immunity then the genetic cocktails.

I am keeping a close I on those that have gotten vaccinated as they might be dangerous since some scientists are saying screwing with peoples genetics could effect their moods, ability to think, cause alzheimer or cause autism in the future.

The vaccinated having played games with their immune system could be a real threat for carrying viruses. 

Lock downs & masks do not work so why wear a mask or lock anyone down ?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Ok. Thanks. I thought you meant people fully vaccinated with AZ would not be eligible for the passport.


That was also my impression ! I got worried for a minute as my wife got AZ... It would be stupid not to include AZ as majority of UK got it.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> That was also my impression ! I got worried for a minute as my wife got AZ... It would be stupid not to include AZ as majority of UK got it.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I just got a report from Medipac. They saw no deviation or increase in claims over the past winter.Covid didn't appear to have any impact on their Snowbird claims..


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> That was also my impression ! I got worried for a minute as my wife got AZ... It would be stupid not to include AZ as majority of UK got it.


Actually, also Sputnik V and Sinovax should be included, as many Eastern European EU countries like Hungary, Slovakia are using them... or they should close border like during Cold WAR


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Pretty much a useless move considering that all you have to do is fly internationally into Calgary, and then no problems with quarantine.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-quarantine-contraventions-act-international-travel-1.6022781


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> Pretty much a useless move considering that all you have to do is fly internationally into Calgary, and then no problems with quarantine.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-quarantine-contraventions-act-international-travel-1.6022781


So to avoid this authoritarian act , I should fly via Calgary after vacation in Caribbean?! What a stupidity!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> So to avoid this authoritarian act , I should fly via Calgary after vacation in Caribbean?! What a stupidity!


I agree, Trudeau even does a half-**** job of being an authoritarian.
Can't he go surfing in Tofino or something, and let Freeland run the country again?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Trudeau ‘frustrated’ Ford continues to call on Ottawa for more border restrictions without providing specific requests



> ...
> _On Wednesday, Ford sent another letter to Trudeau saying he is “disappointed” that no response has been provided to Ontario’s requests to tighten measures at the border to reduce COVID-19 variants from coming into the province.
> 
> “To date, there has been no action on any of these requests and no indication that anything is coming,” Ford wrote.
> ...


 ... mrMatt, here's your opportunity to assist Ford and tell Trudeau exactly what's required. Shouldn't be too hard based on the above newspiece bullet-points.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Conservatives want to open everything up and close everything down.....at the same time....lol


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> Trudeau ‘frustrated’ Ford continues to call on Ottawa for more border restrictions without providing specific requests
> 
> ... mrMatt, here's your opportunity to assist Ford and tell Trudeau exactly what's required. Shouldn't be too hard based on the above newspiece bullet-points.


Trudeau won't do that, he cares more about the jet setting travellers who'll vote for him than the Ford voters who won't.
It's in his political interest to not do anything Ford tells him to.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Quite frankly Doug Ford is even dumber than Trudeau when it comes to travel restrictions. It is hard to find a starting point to analysis this really incompetent and silly program. Kudos to the G&M for calling a spade a spade.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Quite frankly *Doug Ford is even dumber than Trudeau* when it comes to travel restrictions. It is hard to find a starting point to analysis this really incompetent and silly program. Kudos to the G&M for calling a spade a spade.


Unfortunately , it's true! Ford complaining to Trudeau that more than 1/3 coming to Ontario on private planes (and obviously not doing any quarantine ) and via Buffalo ("that became major Ontario airport").... So what Ford expects from Trudeau?! To buy Russian S400 and shot down private planes?! And practically everyone wo is coming back to Ontario are vaccinated!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Why are tests required for fully-vaccinated Canadians? And quarantines? It is a waste of time and money. I plan to claim all extra costs on my taxes next year.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Most COVID travel cases are due to domestic travel within Canada.

So block the Provincial borders and close all airports and train stations ?

I agree that non-Canadians should not be allowed into Canada by any venue.

But I doubt Trudeau has the legal authority to block citizens from returning.

He is doing all he can within his legal limits. 

Perhaps he should create a COVID Measures Act to give himself the legal authority ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our city just had a big outbreak associated with a funeral. The COVID is still spreading.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> He is doing all he can within his legal limits.
> 
> Perhaps he should create a COVID Measures Act to give himself the legal authority ?


He has the quarantine act, it's already in place, he's simply not enforcing it.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

kcowan said:


> Why are tests required for fully-vaccinated Canadians? And quarantines? It is a waste of time and money. I plan to claim all extra costs on my taxes next year.


Some travel insurance policies will pay for the cost of the hotel quarantine.


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## Bananatron (Jan 18, 2021)

sags said:


> Our city just had a big outbreak associated with a funeral. The COVID is still spreading.


I have to assume those that circumvented the restrictions for a funeral likely havent vaccinated?

My grandmother just passed we didn't have a service, at all. Really the weirdest thing.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> He has the quarantine act, it's already in place, he's simply not enforcing it.


not true I am one of those fully vaccinated snowbirds who just got out of quarantine for 17 days. The monitoring and surveillance was annoying to the extreme. The people who returned by land tested .25% positive. I suspect non of these cases were vaccinated snowbirds. The policy of testing and quarantine snowbirds who have been fully vaccinated probably ties up 70 or 80 nurses who could be better used in ICU s. The land crossing people had pretty well zero impact on the third wave. The air restrictions might be a different story. The hotel thing is just a stupid experiment. At home quarantine for 14 days with two tests and surveillance and monitoring would be more than sufficient. In respect to essential workers they should have been fully vaccinated at an early stage. People like Ford and Trudeau are wasting a lot of resources in subjecting fully vaccinated Canadians to this nonsense.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Some relief from these questionable travel restrictions. The list of authoritative sources that have been saying their is no need to quarantine fully vaccinated people is lengthy. Israel, Australia, Europe and others have agreed and have lifted restrictions for such travellers. Finally Trudeau is leading from the rear although there is still two tests and a three day quarantine . Fortunately the insane hotel detention won't apply. The science and the data is there . We will need some common sense to get away from this control bunker mentality .


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Some relief from these questionable travel restrictions. The list of authoritative sources that have been saying their is no need to quarantine fully vaccinated people is lengthy. Israel, Australia, Europe and others have agreed and have lifted restrictions for such travellers. Finally Trudeau is leading from the rear although there is still two tests and a three day quarantine . Fortunately the insane hotel detention won't apply. The science and the data is there . We will need some common sense to get away from this control bunker mentality .


And another idiot, Dougie Ford, wasting taxpayer money by paying 680News to play anti-Trudeau ad to close the border! This is a country of idiots


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> And another idiot, Dougie Ford, wasting taxpayer money by paying 680News to play anti-Trudeau ad to close the border! This is a country of idiots


Unfortunatey the politicians are reflecting the polls. The majority of Canadians want to close the border. It shows widespread ignorance on the protection offered by the vaccines especially the Mrna vaccines. They keep saying their policies follow the science when the reality is their policies are following the polls. Fully vaccinated people aren't the problem and its time that policies reflect that fact.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Everything should be locked down tight until the virus is gone. That is the only way to get rid of it and we eventually are going to end up there anyways.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_Fully vaccinated people aren't the problem and its time that policies reflect that fact. _

Apparently, they aren't the solution either. The first cruise ship vacation since 2020 has at least 2 infected passengers. 

Everyone was vaccinated and tested before boarding.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> _Fully vaccinated people aren't the problem and its time that policies reflect that fact. _
> 
> Apparently, they aren't the solution either. The first cruise ship vacation since 2020 has at least 2 infected passengers.
> 
> Everyone was vaccinated and tested before boarding.


vaccinations don't mean you can't get it. What it does mean is your case will be a mild one and very few will need hospitalization.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> Everything should be locked down tight until the virus is gone. That is the only way to get rid of it and we eventually are going to end up there anyways.


move to North Korea. That is their lifestyle. May-be we should have lockdowns until every disease has been eliminated. Far more people have died from cancer, diabetes, strokes and cardiovascular issues then covid. In fact most of the people who have died had one or more of these conditions. At some point we have to take a step back and take a deep breath.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Everything should be locked down tight until the virus is gone. That is the only way to get rid of it and we eventually are going to end up there anyways.


Yeah, not gonna happen. Canadians won't accept it, why do you think Trudeau never closed the borders?

Just like to point out Trudeau never closed the borders, and he has one of the highest popularity ratings.
He's actually going to take his refusal to lock down to the polls.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

zinfit said:


> vaccinations don't mean you can't get it. What it does mean is your case will be a mild one and very few will need hospitalization.


That works if the cruise ship goes out a couple of miles and sails circles for a week.

Without all the fees and commissions they receive from shore tours, the price will have to go up though.

It would cost a lot more to feed bored passengers who can't leave the ship.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

zinfit said:


> move to North Korea. That is their lifestyle. May-be we should have lockdowns until every disease has been eliminated. Far more people have died from cancer, diabetes, strokes and cardiovascular issues then covid. In fact most of the people who have died had one or more of these conditions. At some point we have to take a step back and take a deep breath.


If we had locked down, the hospitals could have continued safely with healthcare. It is the refusal to lock down that caused the delays in healthcare.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> If we had locked down, the hospitals could have continued safely with healthcare. It is the refusal to lock down that caused the delays in healthcare.


I think they're finding most cases are the variants... too bad we didn't lock down the borders.. 
Unfortunatley I don't think this failure will impact Trudeau much at all.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> move to *North Korea*. That is their lifestyle. May-be we should have lockdowns until every disease has been eliminated. Far more people have died from cancer, diabetes, strokes and cardiovascular issues then covid. In fact most of the people who have died had one or more of these conditions. At some point we have to take a step back and take a deep breath.


Exactly the same I was thinking about! Ford wants to convert us to North Korea.... When whole World starting to open border , Ford requesting to close


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I think they're finding most cases are the variants... too bad we didn't lock down the borders..
> Unfortunatley I don't think this failure will impact Trudeau much at all.


Shutting down the border entirely was always impossible without imposing unsustainable hardship (ie, shutting down US border). I'd expect the US border permeability would make any other foreign travel restrictions largely futile in keeping out variants.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Shutting down the border entirely was always impossible without imposing unsustainable hardship (ie, shutting down US border). I'd expect the US border permeability would make any other foreign travel restrictions largely futile in keeping out variants.


Close to non essential travel and implement a quarantine... like Taiwan did in March 2020, and Canada still hasn't... at least as of June 2021


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Close to non essential travel and implement a quarantine... like Taiwan did in March 2020, and Canada still hasn't... at least as of June 2021


You keep saying this but they have had a travel advisory against non-essential travel from the beginning, and a quarantine since around then too.





__





Find out if you can enter Canada - Travel restrictions in Canada – Canada.ca


Canadians and foreign nationals can answer a few questions about their situation to understand travel restrictions coming into or back to Canada.




travel.gc.ca









COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca


COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.




travel.gc.ca





What would you do differently from what they have done? You want them to have had a 14 day hotel quarantine like Australia? I wouldn't be opposed to this but as you can see from Zinfit and Gibor, there are a lot of people who would be. 

If you insist on a 14day quarantine for essential travelers that means every truck driver bringing goods into the country can't deliver their load for 14 days and must quarantine at the border? Seems pretty impractical to me.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Spudd said:


> You keep saying this but they have had a travel advisory against non-essential travel from the beginning, and a quarantine since around then too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Our economy and standard of living would crash if these people had their way. The Ontario auto industry would come to a complete stop. Whether you like it or not Canada's economy is highly integrated with the USA. But if you look at the data the US is in better shape than Canada. If they had the Trudeau/Ford mentality they might have closed the border to Canada. I spent my winter in the US and I can say I much preferred the attitude to covid over the extreme lockdown mentality in Canada. Funny thing some of the states with stricter restrictions have higher case counts than the states with no restrictions. There are limits on the level of control that can be imposed on people without turning our society into a leftwing totalitarian regime and the elimination of our basic rights.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> You keep saying this but they have had a travel advisory against non-essential travel from the beginning, and a quarantine since around then too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was never properly enforced.
Still isn't

I'm open to an exception for essential travellers, but not for people who just want to take a vacation.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Spudd said:


> You keep saying this but they have had a travel advisory against non-essential travel from the beginning, and a quarantine since around then too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As per findings of Advisory Health Panel , even 3 days "quarantine in special hotels" are useless! Everyone knew it from the beginning Iesp if you watch some youtube videos how those "hotels" are managed). It was (and it is) just additional tax grab


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> As per findings of Advisory Health Panel , even 3 days "quarantine in special hotels" are useless! Everyone knew it from the beginning Iesp if you watch some youtube videos how those "hotels" are managed). It was (and it is) just additional tax grab


I don't think it was ever intended to be practical or useful. It was to discourage travel. Cross-border travel, other than for essential services, simply was not necessary and most countries that locked down their borders did a lot better through all the waves. I underline the key point because that is different from the year long gong show of forever changing restrictive policies within Canada. Cross-border travel is a privilege, not a right at the best of times.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> As per findings of Advisory Health Panel , even 3 days "quarantine in special hotels" are useless! Everyone knew it from the beginning Iesp if you watch some youtube videos how those "hotels" are managed). It was (and it is) just additional tax grab


Your absolutely right. Getting away from airports, buses and hotels and quarantining at home is much better for everyone concerned. I went through the latter process. Their was random phoning and required daily reporting. There was also a random possibility of a surveillance officer showing up. This was far superior to this useless, expensive and risky hotel stay. We had all this stuff through the winter and we had a series third wave during April and May. The US didn't experience the third wave . In fact their covid numbers were collapsing during this period. Given this backdrop it was absurd and illogical to assume that people coming from the US were responsible for the third wave.


AltaRed said:


> I don't think it was ever intended to be practical or useful. It was to discourage travel. Cross-border travel, other than for essential services, simply was not necessary and most countries that locked down their borders did a lot better through all the waves. I underline the key point because that is different from the year long gong show of forever changing restrictive policies within Canada. Cross-border travel is a privilege, not a right at the best of times.


Except if you are a Canadian.The Charter gives a Canadian an unrestricted acces and right of leaving Canada.These are rights under our constitution 
TRUDEAU in the 2015 leaders debate said his government would never deprive a Canadian of their rights under the charter.I guess public opinions polls meant more to Trudeau then our fundametal rights.. Communist regime define rights as a privilege granted by the state to me rights in a free and democratic society are independent if the power of goverments..I understand your leftist point of view that is polls apart from my point of view.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> It was never properly enforced.
> Still isn't
> 
> I'm open to an exception for essential travellers, but not for people who just want to take a vacation.


I can't wait for three years for knee repleacement surgery.I want out of this socialist one size fits all so I can knee replacement surgery this summer.I don't want socialist political correctness from depriving me from doing what is best for my health.You only live once.Notwithstanding your NORTH Korea view on travel to the USA they are in better shape then your Canada.If anyone should be restricting travel it is the USA.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I'm open to an exception for essential travellers, but not for people who just want to take a vacation.


 But this is very subjective! Who is going to decide what is "essential" ?! Ford , Trudeau, Dr. Williams?! Different people have different essentials. zinfit is talking about his "knee replacement" surgery..... and who is going to decide if it's essential for him?! For a lot of people , travel is essential , others never crossed their province and they don't care.

Forcing fully vaccinated people to pay and quarantine in refugee-style approved hotel is a madness! Health advisory panel recommended to cancel this hotel-quarantines even for people who didn't get vaccine.

Why from the beginning Canada couldn't do quarantine in civilized way like Israel did (wearing electronic bracelets and staying at your home?!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

zinfit said:


> Except if you are a Canadian.The Charter gives a Canadian an unrestricted acces and right of leaving Canada.These are rights under our constitution
> TRUDEAU in the 2015 leaders debate said his government would never deprive a Canadian of their rights under the charter.I guess public opinions polls meant more to Trudeau then our fundametal rights.. Communist regime define rights as a privilege granted by the state to me rights in a free and democratic society are independent if the power of goverments..I understand your leftist point of view that is polls apart from my point of view.


You are misreading my comments. Cross border travel is a privilege, not a right. No country has to permit a non-resident to enter their country and that is what closing borders has meant throughout the pandemic. I never once said anything about preventing one's citizens and visitors from leaving a country. Canadians are free to leave Canada but it doesn't help if no one is going to let us into their country. Your ideology is getting in the way of facts and it shows.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> But this is very subjective! Who is going to decide what is "essential" ?! Ford , Trudeau, Dr. Williams?! Different people have different essentials. *zinfit is talking about his "knee replacement" surgery..... and who is going to decide if it's essential for him?! *For a lot of people , travel is essential , others never crossed their province and they don't care.
> 
> Forcing fully vaccinated people to pay and quarantine in refugee-style approved hotel is a madness! Health advisory panel recommended to cancel this hotel-quarantines even for people who didn't get vaccine.
> 
> Why from the beginning Canada couldn't do quarantine in civilized way like Israel did (wearing electronic bracelets and staying at your home?!


 ... you do realize there's currently a 3 years backlog (in Ontario) for such surgeries, cancer-care, etc.?

Not sure what it's like in B.C. but suggest he take a number and wait ... as no one told him to snow-bird out of the country during a pandemic. Alternative is stay in the beautiful and liberating USA (no roach motel or ghettos/gulags there either!) and pay out of pocket for faster service.

Besides, Canada's health systems SUCKS BIG TIME as per your earlier posts.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> _Fully vaccinated people aren't the problem and its time that policies reflect that fact. _
> 
> Apparently, they aren't the solution either. The first cruise ship vacation since 2020 has at least 2 infected passengers.
> 
> Everyone was vaccinated and tested before boarding.


There are and will continue cases be cases even in fully vaccinated people, especially with the variants.
10 Fully Vaccinated in Outbreak

The difference is, that those involved in the outbreak that are vaccinated will hopefully not have severe outcomes. 
UPDATE: They just said that all of those infected, except 1 have mild symptoms. They patients were already in the hospital. All the staff have mild symptoms. It's currently unknown if the one who has had to move to ICU was vaccinated or not. 

I already posted previously that my friends father (mid 80's) is in ICU. He was fully vaccinated a while ago, however he was on anti-rejection drugs for medical treatment. His wife was also vaccinated (I think fully), and their neighbor (at least one dose, but not sure). The wife had to go over the neighbors because the neighbor had fallen and was in medical distress. The wife was masked, and stayed with the neighbor (unmasked) until the paramedics arrived about 15-20 later. She washed her hands, followed all the precautions, and went home. The neighbor caught COVID a few days before passed it on to the wife, who passed it on to the husband (my friends' dad). Both the wife and neighbor have recovered with minor discomfort. Father is in on a ventilator in ICU. They said that if the wife and neighbor were not vaccinated, they could be in the hospital too. They think the father did develop immunity because of the drugs that were suppressing his immune system. So this is cautionary for those who are severely immunocompromised that the need to still take extra caution (which they should anyways)



sags said:


> Everything should be locked down tight until the virus is gone. That is the only way to get rid of it and we eventually are going to end up there anyways.


The purpose of the vaccines are the following:

Reduce the chance of catching COVID, which also reduces the chances of transmitting. The vaccine does not guarantee you won't catch it.
The second purpose of the vaccine is that on the reduced chance you do catch it, it will prevent severe outcomes. This is the bigger benefit.

As someone else said, we should be more concerned with the severe outcomes. This is why we had lock downs, it's to prevent the medical system from being overwhelmed. If we have less people getting infected AND out of those infected, a smaller percentage needs hospitalization, there is no reason to continue with lockdowns. 

It is unreasonable to think that COVID will be eradicated before we open up. For those like my friend's dad, they will always need to be careful. They could have been taken down with a cold or another virus. It's only because of the prevalence of the COVID and the high transmission rate that it is so concerning. There is a balance between the long term effects of locking down vs the immediate effects COVID. As the severe impacts and impacts to the medical system are reduced, then we need to take care of the longer term impacts such as mental health, schooling, businesses etc.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... you do realize there's currently a 3 years backlog (in Ontario) for such surgeries, cancer-care, etc.?
> 
> Not sure what it's like in B.C. but suggest he take a number and wait ... as no one told him to snow-bird out of the country during a pandemic. Alternative is stay in the beautiful and liberating USA (no roach motel or ghettos/gulags there either!) and pay out of pocket for faster service.
> 
> Besides, Canada's health systems SUCKS BIG TIME as per your earlier posts.


thanks for the judgement and having your decision take precedence over my own personal choices


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I can't wait for three years for knee repleacement surgery.I want out of this socialist one size fits all so I can knee replacement surgery this summer.I don't want socialist political correctness from depriving me from doing what is best for my health.You only live once.Notwithstanding your NORTH Korea view on travel to the USA they are in better shape then your Canada.If anyone should be restricting travel it is the USA.


Hey I agree that the health care restrictions in Canada are morally wrong.

You're free to go anywhere in the world that will take you to get knee surgery.

My view on travel is more Israeli/Taiwan, two countries I've routinely commented on for having effective COVID19 border protocols.
I don't think I've ever endorsed North Korea, I think they're an excellent example of why authoritarian socialism is bad.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

zinfit said:


> thanks for the judgement and having your decision take precedence over my own personal choices


 .. it's not a judgement. It's a fact (as published in the news) that there's a 3 years backlog for non-elective surgery in Ontario. Here's the link Ontario's surgical backlog will take more than 3.5 years to clear: fiscal watchdog Oh, make that 3.5 years.

Plus it's NOT my decision that's taking precedence over your personal choices. In fact it's the opposite. It was your own personal choices that's trying to take precedence over others by not staying in the country so as to be on queue for medical care/non-elective surgery. Don't take my word for it. Ask CMF member ($$$) when is his dad's overdue knee replacement taking place ... would it be fair for you (should you be in Ontario) to jump ahead of him who has been waiting for months "in the country" for the procedure. You can make that decision.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> .. it's not a judgement. It's a fact (as published in the news) that there's a 3 years backlog for non-elective surgery in Ontario. Here's the link Ontario's surgical backlog will take more than 3.5 years to clear: fiscal watchdog Oh, make that 3.5 years.
> 
> Plus it's NOT my decision that's taking precedence over your personal choices. In fact it's the opposite. It was your own personal choices that's trying to take precedence over others by not staying in the country so as to be on queue for medical care/non-elective surgery. Don't take my word for it. Ask CMF member ($$$) when is his dad's overdue knee replacement taking place ... would it be fair for you (should you be in Ontario) to jump ahead of him who has been waiting for months "in the country" for the procedure. You can make that decision.


An excellent argument for socialism and some vague notion of fairness. I am not costing the tax payer a penny and my decision keeps the Canadian socialist system a little less clogged. There is something wrong in this Canadian fantasy land. I was just talking to a person who visited family in Holland . He managed to lineup knee surgery replacement in 3 days. He said if he went to Belgium it was one day. I take my healthcare seriously and I don't leave my care to the judgement of a ridiculous socialist system. My surgeon says a 3 year wait will only make my arthritic condition much worse and it may reach a stage were knee replacement isn't possible.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Well, then demand your surgeon to perform the procedure according to your schedule instead of the ridiculous socialist health system we have here in Canada. And then see what he says. This is presuming your surgeon doesn't work out privately (like the USA).

PS: Maybe you can ask the person you were talking to if he can arrange a slot for you for the procedure in Belgium.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> An excellent argument for socialism and some vague notion of fairness. I am not costing the tax payer a penny and my decision keeps the Canadian socialist system a little less clogged. There is something wrong in this Canadian fantasy land. I was just talking to a person who visited family in Holland . He managed to lineup knee surgery replacement in 3 days. He said if he went to Belgium it was one day. I take my healthcare seriously and I don't leave my care to the judgement of a ridiculous socialist system. My surgeon says a 3 year wait will only make my arthritic condition much worse and it may reach a stage were knee replacement isn't possible.


It's understandable, our friend who is PhD here in Canada, went for surgery to Tunisia (and it was very successful) as she knows exactly what is OHIP LOL... 
btw, for 10 days she couldn't get her own medical records as her family doctor ......was on vacation LOL....Our health system is a joke


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Hey I agree that the health care restrictions in Canada are morally wrong.
> 
> You're free to go anywhere in the world that will take you to get knee surgery.
> 
> My view on travel is more Israeli/Taiwan, two countries I've routinely commented on for having effective COVID19 border protocols.


Check out Israeli Health System.... I lived in both Canada and Israel and can witness that Israeli system is superior comparing to Canadian... No wonder they are so successful fighting Covid
*Healthcare in Israel*_ is universal and participation in a medical insurance plan is compulsory. All Israeli residents are entitled to basic health care as a fundamental right. The Israeli healthcare system is based on the National Health Insurance Law of 1995, which mandates all citizens resident in the country to join one of four official health insurance organizations, known as Kupat Holim (קופת חולים - "Sick Funds") which are run as not-for-profit organizations and are prohibited by law from denying any Israeli resident membership. Israelis can increase their medical coverage and improve their options by purchasing private health insurance.[1] *In a survey of 48 countries in 2013, Israel's health system was ranked fourth in the world in terms of efficiency, and in 2014 it ranked seventh out of 51.[2] In 2020, Israel's health system was ranked third most efficient in the world.[3] In 2015, Israel was ranked sixth-healthiest country in the world by Bloomberg rankings*_


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Oops ... moved link to Coronavirus thread.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> It's understandable, our friend who is PhD here in Canada, went for surgery to Tunisia (and it was very successful) as she knows exactly what is OHIP LOL...
> btw, for 10 days she couldn't get her own medical records as her family doctor ......was on vacation LOL....Our health system is a joke


It was a challenge to get my records.My family doctor seemed almost angry when I told him I needed the xrays and radiologists reports. He didn't have the actual Xrays so I had to go to the diagnostic and imaging firm.After a bit of a
in person battle I managed to get two CDs with my xrays. These people seem to have a hard time understanding that I have I have a right to my records..When my coordinator received these documents she wanted my MRI and I told her they didn't have any. She was surprised she said MRIs have long replaced xrays in this area of medicine.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> ... These people seem to have a hard time understanding that I have I have a right to my records..


 ... you do realize "these people" are the "experts" in their fields.



> When my *coordinator* received these documents she wanted my MRI and I told her they didn't have any. She was surprised she said MRIs have long replaced xrays in this area of medicine.


 ... why would you need a coordinator for your healthcare. Good luck getting an MRI to scan your knee. Here in Ontario, maybe you get one in your next life for that.

As said, you were better off in the USA getting healthcare ... on your terms and schedule instead coming back to this fantasy land (your term). And of course, be sure to have a deep pocketbook (which I think most snowbirds do) without Medicaid.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Our medical system in Mexico is superior to Canada in access to services. My GP ordered an MRI to diagnose COPD and I got it next day. He read it and confirmed the COPD all for the 500 peso charge. I get to keep everything and l have his cell phone number. (The MRI was 800 pesos)

It took fours years for my Canadian GP to confirm even though my MRI was available.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Our medical system in Mexico is superior to Canada in access to services. My GP ordered an MRI to diagnose COPD and I got it next day. He read it and confirmed the COPD all for the 500 peso charge. I get to keep everything and l have his cell phone number. (The MRI was 800 pesos)
> 
> It took fours years for my Canadian GP to confirm even though my MRI was available.


I remember growing up in a border town.
The radio was full of ads for the MRI services.
When people were waiting months in Ontario, they were available same day in the US.

The problem in Canada isn't that we have a government health care system, it's that they restrict access, and limit available procedures.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ ... you do realize "these people" are the "experts" in their fields.
> 
> ... why would you need a coordinator for your healthcare. Good luck getting an MRI to scan your knee. Here in Ontario, maybe you get one in your next life for that.
> 
> As said, you were better off in the USA getting healthcare ... on your terms and schedule instead coming back to this fantasy land (your term). And of course, be sure to have a deep pocketbook (which I think most snowbirds do) without Medicaid.


I am getting my knee replacement in Mexico. I have done a lot of research and I am quite confident about the surgeon and the facility I will be used. They are the people surprised that Canada doesn't utilize MRIs . There are many other countries with national health programs that have superior technology, results and wait times then Canada and spend a smaller portion of their GDP on health care. Switerzland and Germany for starters.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Health care is a Provincial responsibility and every time the Conservatives are in power they cut spending on healthcare.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Health care is a Provincial responsibility and every time the Conservatives are in power they cut spending on healthcare.


Care to prove that they cut heath care spending? Or is this another one of sags unfounded or outright false claims.

The last time I'm aware of Conservatives cutting spending was Mike Harris, when Chretien slashed provincial heath care transfers.

You have to remember, the Federal government collects income tax, then gives some of it back to the provinces.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> Health care is a Provincial responsibility and every time the Conservatives are in power they cut spending on healthcare.


Actually Harper increased the amount transferred to the provinces by a significant amount over the amount that Chretien had established. You watch to much of the Unifor union political advertising.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It was the Harper government who negotiated the current Provincial transfers that Alberta is bitching about.

In fact, Jason Kenney was in the Harper cabinet that negotiated the transfers to the Provinces, including Alberta.

The depth of the hypocrisy is ridiculous.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ontario's Doug Ford Conservatives cuts to healthcare. I guess some posters are "unaware" of all the cuts or live in denial of them.









UPDATE: Mounting Health Care Cuts - Ontario Health Coalition


List of the Ford government health care cuts to date: Cut OHIP+ so families with sick children will have to seek private coverage first and pay




www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca













Opinion | Why Doug Ford’s to blame for health-care mess


Since taking office more than two years ago, Ford has made a long series of policy and funding moves that have worsened — not improved — the already underfunded and overloaded system.




www.thestar.com













Ontario spent $466M less on healthcare than planned ahead of COVID-19 pandemic


Ontario's Progressive Conservative government spent nearly half-a-billion dollars less on healthcare than it originally planned last year, affecting the Chief Medical Officer of Health, Public Health units and long-term care ahead of the COVID-19 pandemic.



toronto.ctvnews.ca













Doug Ford announces that cuts to municipal public health and childcare programs will go ahead


Concerns prompted premier to put package of retroactive spending reductions on hold earlier this year




www.theglobeandmail.com


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I am getting my knee replacement in Mexico. I have done a lot of research and I am quite confident about the surgeon and the facility I will be used.


 ... then you do what's best for you. Nothing wrong with that.



> They are the people surprised that Canada doesn't utilize MRIs.


 ... Canada do uses MRI, just not for knee replacement or a broken hip. More like for cancer-treatment or when the patient is close to his/her deathbed.



> There are many other countries with national health programs that have superior technology, results and wait times then Canada and spend a smaller portion of their GDP on health care. Switerzland and Germany for starters.


...well, there's the problem. Both the rich and the poor wants to milk the system .. more so of the rich when they can well afford it. The poor has no choice. He/she is at the mercy of the system. And there're only so much resources to go around.

Just look at the health premiums paid ... you only pay a threshold of $900 per year if you earn $200K or more per year. Please tell me that a CEO earning $1M per year can't afford a higher premium? What about the $10M CEO, he can easily fly his learjet to a country of his choice for treatment and yet claim Canada has the best accessible health systems in the world.

One of my employer had a CEO like that, bragging about the *amazing health systems* of ours - him getting an operation "*within 24 hours" *of a cardio-dysfunction. And part of his compensation package was like $5M + / year at that time and yet there was no other health systems other than the Canadian one that he could access or suck up.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I am getting my knee replacement in Mexico. I have done a lot of research and I am quite confident about the surgeon and the facility I will be used. They are the people surprised that Canada doesn't utilize MRIs . There are many other countries with national health programs that have superior technology, results and wait times then Canada and spend a smaller portion of their GDP on health care. Switerzland and Germany for starters.


True!
_For example, the average wait time for an MRI in Canada tends to be more than seven weeks (_currently it's much longer_). By contrast, the typical wait for similar diagnostic scans in top-performing European countries like Germany and Switzerland is less than one week. This delay can be the difference between life and death.
Similarly, waits for orthopaedic surgery are unconscionably long in this country. In France and the Netherlands, more than 90 per cent of hip and knee replacements are performed within 90 days of the decision to treat. But in Canada, the median wait time in many provinces is well over 100 days. In other words, even the people who wait the longest for surgery in Western Europe receive their treatments faster than the typical Canadian patient.
These short European wait times are achieved without compromising on quality...
While Canadians suffer through long waits for necessary medical services, citizens of the “Tier 1” European countries *enjoy access to prompt, high quality care, despite comparable or lower levels of government spending*. This achievement results from a fundamentally different approach to health care finance and delivery. The European model promotes consumer choice and competition by avoiding monopolistic government control over insurance and healthcare provision. 








To Reduce Health Wait Times, Follow the European Model: Top European countries provide universal, world-class care- without the long waits


Addressing Canada’s long healthcare wait times requires major reforms and an end to monopolistic government control over insurance and healthcare provision.




fcpp.org




_


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The average wage in Mexico is $3.50 an hour. It is not surprising they have open appointments, when their own people can't afford the healthcare.

European and Scandanavian countries pay far higher taxes to provide comprehensive healthcare.

There is no way to combine better healthcare with lower taxes....although Conservatives continue to think there is some magical way to make it happen.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> The average wage in Mexico is $3.50 an hour. It is not surprising they have open appointments, when their own people can't afford the healthcare.
> 
> European countries pay far higher taxes to provide healthcare.
> 
> There is no way to combine better healthcare with lower taxes........although Conservatives continue to think there is some magical way to make it happen.


sags, do you read other posts?! Just in previous one I quoted from the article
_*While Canadians suffer through long waits for necessary medical services, citizens of the “Tier 1” European countries enjoy access to prompt, high quality care, despite comparable or lower levels of government spending.* _

And mentioned country Germany (who also offer free universities for local and international students), Switzerland, even Israel have much lower taxes....


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ And yet you're still hiding in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The average wage in Mexico is $3.50 an hour. It is not surprising they have open appointments, when their own people can't afford the healthcare.
> 
> European and Scandanavian countries pay far higher taxes to provide comprehensive healthcare.
> 
> There is no way to combine better healthcare with lower taxes....although Conservatives continue to think there is some magical way to make it happen.


Yes there is, let people opt out of the public system.

Keep the same Public system with its year long waits, and let people spend their own money to get better service. Like every other country, except the notable [email protected]#holes


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Yes there is, let people opt out of the public system.
> 
> Keep the same Public system with its year long waits, and let people spend their own money to get better service. Like every other country, except the notable [email protected]#holes


A solution is to allow free market no frill firms like the Oklahoma Surgey Center To open up shop. They do full knee replacements for 19k .this would keep people in Canada and the money spent would spent here.In addition this would save the government money and shorten the wait times for everyone else.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Yes there is, let people opt out of the public system.
> 
> Keep the same Public system with its year long waits, and let people spend their own money to get better service. *Like every other country, except the notable [email protected]#holes*


 ... wow. Are you sure you want to live in Canada?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Privatized health care hasn't worked out well in the US.

People go bankrupt because they have a sick child.

This is a system that you want to adopt ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

zinfit said:


> A solution is to allow free market no frill firms like the Oklahoma Surgey Center To open up shop. They do full knee replacements for 19k .this would keep people in Canada and the money spent would spent here.In addition this would save the government money and shorten the wait times for everyone else.


Except that it doesn't work that way.

The "private" companies expect to be subsidized with the healthcare dollars paid by the government, otherwise they wouldn't have enough patients to stay in business for long. Do you think cardiac surgical clinics would stay open waiting around for a wealthy person to have a heart attack ?

How many Canadians would pay $19K for a knee replacement, when they can wait and get one for free ?

Private clinics were offering covid tests for a fee, but they wanted to use the supply of free swabs paid for by the Canadian government.

If they charge a fee to earn a profit off healthcare they can source and purchase their own swabs and test kits.

Canadians have no interest in taking dollars out of the public healthcare system to enrich the owners of private clinics.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Privatized health care hasn't worked out well in the US.
> 
> People go bankrupt because they have a sick child.
> 
> This is a system that you want to adopt ?


Nobody is suggesting that.

Public health care, as implemented by Canada, leaves people suffering for years, is that acceptable to you?

Why can't you seem to accept that there are better options than the status quo.
We deserve better health care.

The government is spending money on promoting racism, instead of spending on improving our heath care system. There is something wrong.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Nobody is suggesting that.
> 
> Public health care, as implemented by Canada, leaves people suffering for years, is that acceptable to you?
> 
> ...


Israel has Universal health care and still has 4 health funds (like 4 different OHIPs) that compete with each other and if they don;t give good service , people will move to another health fund.
_Under the National Health Insurance Law, membership in one of the *four* following health funds, or Kupot *Holim* (Patient Funds) *is* compulsory *for* all residents of *Israel*: Clalit, Maccabi, Meuhedet and Leumit._

Also, together with Universal health care , Israel has private clinics, so if you want very fast service and ready to pay - you are welcome!
In Canada, if you don't want to wait 3-5 months for MRI, you are not allowed to pay and get it fast in private clinics (even though they exist , but not for regular people). In order to get MRI next day, you have to drive to US or fly to Cuba! "Amazing" Canadian socialist system!


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Let's get rid of the belief that the Canadian system is totally public. The private sector built the healthcare infrastructure, the emergency service sector uses ambulances and helicopters provided by the private sector, the drugs, devices and equipment come from the likes of JNJ, GE and Pfizer. Even the uniforms warn by the staff came from the private sector. We should be looking at the European countries for new and better ways of delivering healthcare. 3 and 1'2 years is unacceptable.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Private companies wouldn't survive without public funding because there wouldn't be enough patients willing to pay.

If you want to start a private clinic, solely funded by the patients.....nobody is stopping you.

Sometimes private healthcare is paid for by private healthcare insurance, but the premiums can be expensive and the treatments limited.

_Still, there is technically no blanket federal ban on private healthcare in Canada._* Any physician can decide to go private, provided that they completely opt out of working for the public system. A doctor can’t simultaneously bill the province while also billing patients directly; they have to pick one or the other. *


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

sags said:


> Except that it doesn't work that way.
> 
> The "private" companies expect to be subsidized with the healthcare dollars paid by the government, otherwise they wouldn't have enough patients to stay in business for long. Do you think cardiac surgical clinics would stay open waiting around for a wealthy person to have a heart attack ?
> 
> ...


I think a lot would pay for a fast knee replacement in a quasi-luxury clinic where you have your own room, soft music, fresh flowers, good meals….with excellent physio and rehab.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Private companies wouldn't survive without public funding because there wouldn't be enough patients willing to pay.
> 
> If you want to start a private clinic, solely funded by the patients.....nobody is stopping you.


Actually price fixing and explicit bans are stopping you.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Private companies wouldn't survive without public funding because there wouldn't be enough patients willing to pay.


and how come we have a bunch of private MRI clinics (even though regular people cannot pay nd get it)? How we can have private clinic like Medcan that is rather successful?! 
sags, you want to believe as you are not willing to pay, you prefer only "free" staff


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> and how come we have a bunch of private MRI clinics (even though regular people cannot pay nd get it)? How we can have private clinic like Medcan that is rather successful?!
> sags, you want to believe as you are not willing to pay, you prefer only "free" staff


If he wants to get vaccinated and not use a vaccine from a private for profit corporation he will have to try the Cuban or North Korean vaccine.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Health care is a Provincial responsibility and every time the Conservatives are in power they cut spending on healthcare.


Problem with healthcare is not the amount of funding.
The problem is that money is spent in a stupid way. Throwing more of it won't solve the problem.
Cutting administration and hiring smart people will.
In US they don't really have a private health care system either. They have a mix and government overreach is handicapping the competition in the private sector. 
Imho by far the best way to implement public health care system is similar way that Israel has it set up. Simply remove regulations from private sector (other than safety based), and create not-for profits government corporation. If it is run efficiently, since it is not for profit it should be cheaper, and people would naturally gravitate towards it. 
If there is massive amount of waste and despite private sector working for profit it is cheaper, faster, and better than public, then people will simply gravitate towards that. 
Either way, the customer, Canadian taxpayer, wins.


sags simply doesn't know the audience.
This is money forum. People here can do basic math and follow simple logic - your liberal cheerleading with no facts to support your opinions simply won't fly here.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

damian13ster said:


> Problem with healthcare is not the amount of funding.
> The problem is that money is spent in a stupid way. Throwing more of it won't solve the problem.
> Cutting administration and hiring smart people will.
> In US they don't really have a private health care system either. They have a mix and government overreach is handicapping the competition in the private sector.
> ...


a big problem in the USA is litigation and lawsuits. The threats of lawsuits means multiple layers of red tape and administration to protect the health provider from lawsuits. I see a Canadian specialist once a year. He has done his graduate and speciality training in the USA. I asked why he returned to Canada and he said he didn't want to work in a system in which 1/4 of his income went to paying for insurance. In Canada it is next to impossible to successfully sue a doctor. The amount of damages in successful US lawsuits is beyond reason. No other western nation has that problem.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> In Canada it is next to impossible to successfully sue a doctor. The amount of damages in successful US lawsuits is beyond reason. No other western nation has that problem.


Yes, so we have some really really bad doctors.
You can't sue a doctor, you wont' even get a lawyer to talk to you.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> and how come we have a bunch of private MRI clinics (even though regular people cannot pay nd get it)? How we can have private clinic like Medcan that is rather successful?!
> sags, you want to believe as you are not willing to pay, you prefer only "free" staff


 ... are you willing to pay a $3K membership annual (years/a decade ago fee) for MedCan? I bet not despite your wife probably can as a bank executive. The MedCan membership fee includes an annual check up I believe. Not sure how much for an MRI though or if you can get a knee replacement for whatever amount. Most likely you can get cosmetic surgery under MedCan though.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> The problem in Canada isn't that we have a government health care system, it's that they restrict access, and limit available procedures.


Yes my GP was forthright in saying she was measured by how many procedures she ordered. She needed healthy patients to make her numbers. I was glad I had the option to use Mexican healthcare. Pay as you go!


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The Surgery Center for Oklahoma does a fair number of worker compensation surgery cases for Canadian provinces? I wonder why the WCBs aren't using the public healthcare system?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> The Surgery Center for Oklahoma does a fair number of worker compensation surgery cases for Canadian provinces? I wonder why the WCBs aren't using the public healthcare system?


They do the math.
It's cheaper to pay a premium to treat people promptly than to have them sitting there collecting benefits and not working.
That's why if you get hurt, it's better to try and claim it as a workplace injury, you'll jump the queue.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes queue jumping is another issue. Not well-publicized.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... are you willing to pay a $3K membership annual (years/a decade ago fee) for MedCan? I bet not despite your wife probably can as a bank executive. The MedCan membership fee includes an annual check up I believe. Not sure how much for an MRI though or if you can get a knee replacement for whatever amount. Most likely you can get cosmetic surgery under MedCan though.


Do I have an option to opt out from public system in this case and have my taxes lowered by equivalent amount?
If so then I would love to. 
Worked in United States for 4 years, and great insurance + taxes << taxes in Canada


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Do I have an option to opt out from public system in this case and have my taxes lowered by equivalent amount?
> If so then I would love to.
> Worked in United States for 4 years, and great insurance + taxes << taxes in Canada


 ... no, but you do have the option of renouncing your Canadian citizenship.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... no, but you do have the option of renouncing your Canadian citizenship.


No reason to do that. For a time spent abroad, one simply has to prove he is no longer tax resident of Canada. Which I did. If I go abroad again (most likely will seeing where economy is heading) then I will do that again.

And as for not liking the direction the country is heading: you don't always have to run. You can also work on changing it.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> No reason to do that. For a time spent abroad, one simply has to prove he is no longer tax resident of Canada. Which I did. If I go abroad again (most likely will seeing where economy is heading) then I will do that again.
> 
> And as for not liking the direction the country is heading: you don't always have to run. You can also work on changing it.


 ... hey, it's your right. In which case, no need (or more like a right) to b1tch about the sh1tty healthcare system we have here in Canada. Leave that to us Canadian taxpaying suckers. Too bad, I can't say the same to another (couple of) whinies on this forum.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I am emotionally invested in well being of the country.
My family is both emotionally and financially invested in well being of the country.
Even if neither of the above was true, then one can look at multiple countries, look for improvements, learn from others, etc. 
Saying 'if you don't like it get out' is not a productive way to improve any aspect of life, community, or a country.
Also, it isn't pure criticism for the sake of criticism itself. Couple of pages back I suggested a system that I believe would be much more effective, and discussing merits and deficiencies of any existing or possible systems is the productive way to go about a problem.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> I am emotionally invested in well being of the country.
> My family is both emotionally and financially invested in well being of the country.
> *Even if neither of the above was true, then one can look at multiple countries, look for improvements, learn from others, etc.*
> Saying 'if you don't like it get out' is not a productive way to improve any aspect of life, community, or a country.
> Also, it isn't pure criticism for the sake of criticism itself. Couple of pages back I suggested a system that I believe would be much more effective, and discussing merits and deficiencies of any existing or possible systems is the productive way to go about a problem.


 ... I don't disagree with you with the bolded part. But this is Canada or the (complacent) leopard that can't change its spots. 

Btw, the USA's healthsystem is far from perfect even you have the $$$.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't disagree with you with the bolded part. But this is Canada or the (complacent) leopard that can't change its spots.
> 
> Btw, the USA's healthsystem is far from perfect even you have the $$$.


Never claimed it was. I just stated that it was better from my individual position, not that it is better in general. Government interferes far too much in it.
Well, maybe we should pick a government that would be willing to actually provide improvements rather than complacent? I am sure we can find 200 intelligent people in Canada capable of doing that
I believe government should run system independently of the private sector, as a direct competition, with an advantage of being not-for-profit, which theoretically should make it cheaper assuming same efficiency.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> and how come we have a bunch of private MRI clinics (even though regular people cannot pay nd get it)? How we can have private clinic like Medcan that is rather successful?!
> sags, you want to believe as you are not willing to pay, you prefer only "free" staff


They could put MRI machines and technicians in every shopping plaza but what would that solve ? The waiting lists for surgeries would just get longer.

If you want to strengthen the healthcare system you have to spend the money to fund the expansion throughout the system.

More hospitals, surgeons, operating rooms, recovery rooms, nursing staff, housekeeping, ........and all the other needed support staff.

You don't improve healthcare by cutting spending......as the Conservatives always do.

If you want to improve healthcare..........vote for politicians who will increase spending.

Then be willing to pay more in taxes. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke hoping to get much more from less.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> They could put MRI machines and technicians in every shopping plaza but what would that solve ?


Quicker more accurate diagnosis. 
Quicker detection and treatment leads to better outcomes.



> The waiting lists for surgeries would just get longer.


No, it would actually reduce the waitlists because some issues could be treated before they needed surgery, or as invasive a surgery.
Right now the waitlist is artificially short because we have people who need surgery who are on other waitlists.



> If you want to strengthen the healthcare system you have to spend the money to fund the expansion throughout the system.


Not necessarily, earlier interventions can actually reduce the load.
For example they give diet counselling to heart surgery patients to prevent relapse and more care. We know that this helps.
They could expand this, and end up saving money.



> You don't improve healthcare by cutting spending......as the Conservatives always do.


You still haven't identified when this happened. Other than the Mike Harris cuts, due to the Chretien cuts.



> If you want to improve healthcare..........vote for politicians who will increase spending.


They all increase spending.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> They could put MRI machines and technicians in every shopping plaza but what would that solve ? The waiting lists for surgeries would just get longer.
> 
> If you want to strengthen the healthcare system you have to spend the money to fund the expansion throughout the system.
> 
> ...


you keep repeating falsehoods about CPC cuts to healthcare. Harper took power in 2006 and maintained the funding established by Martin for the period ending in 2014. In 2014 a new 10 funding was established for the next 10 years . Yearly funding would increase by a minimum of 3% per year[ higher than the inflation rate] . Trudeau has continued that funding formula. I don't know why left-wingers keep on repeating lies and false information? Unifor and their political advertising campaigns would make Goebels proud.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Sags live in Ontario and healthcare is a provincial responsibility. Just bring up Mike Harris' name (CPC party?) will rush the blood up nurses and doctors, never mind Ontarians.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Sags live in Ontario and healthcare is a provincial responsibility. Just bring up Mike Harris' name (CPC party?) will rush the blood up nurses and doctors, never mind Ontarians.


Mike Harris was PC, not CPC.

Also Chretien cut health care funding, Mike Harris was just left to take the blame.

Remember sags has a selective memory, and will remain oddly silent on backing up claims.
For example, he'll claim that Conservatives always cut health care, but hasn't identified a single instance.
Mike Harris, from a generation ago, is an easy target, but even then it was obviously due to Chretien.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

UNIFOR pigs at the trough.....



>


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

zinfit said:


> you keep repeating falsehoods about CPC cuts to healthcare. Harper took power in 2006 and maintained the funding established by Martin for the period ending in 2014. In 2014 a new 10 funding was established for the next 10 years . Yearly funding would increase by a minimum of 3% per year[ higher than the inflation rate] . Trudeau has continued that funding formula. I don't know why left-wingers keep on repeating lies and false information? Unifor and their political advertising campaigns would make Goebels proud.


Thanks........you proved my point that it was Harper's government who negotiated the transfer payments to Provinces, and Jason Kenney was in his cabinet.

Now Kenney bitterly complains about the transfers that he helped negotiate........too funny.

As for PC spending cuts.........google Doug Ford heathcare cuts. The list is too long to link to here.

The crisis Ford's cuts created in LTC homes will be illuminated in the class action lawsuits winding through the courts.

If you want top rate healthcare.......you gotta pay for it. The Con "artists" try to keep their history hidden, but we know.........we know.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> As for PC spending cuts.........google Doug Ford heathcare cuts. The list is too long to link to here.


Health care spending increased under every year of the Ford government.


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> Thanks........you proved my point that it was Harper's government who negotiated the transfer payments to Provinces, and Jason Kenney was in his cabinet.
> 
> Now Kenney bitterly complains about the transfers that he helped negotiate........too funny.
> 
> ...


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Problem other countries have much better outcomes and spend about the same.


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I see were Trudeau by passed the government requirements for hotel detentions. Instead of staying in one of the four designated airports he stayed at an Ottawa airport. Surprise ,surprise his PCR test results were almost instant. This entire hotel quarantine is a waste and it is time to cancel the useless exercise. His ow advisory group recommended that. The path should be simple. Lift the travel restrictions for fully vaccinated people. Use a rigorous at home quarantine for the non vaccinated.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I see were Trudeau by passed the government requirements for hotel detentions. Instead of staying in one of the four designated airports he stayed at an Ottawa airport. Surprise ,surprise his PCR test results were almost instant. This entire hotel quarantine is a waste and it is time to cancel the useless exercise. His ow advisory group recommended that. The path should be simple. Lift the travel restrictions for fully vaccinated people. Use a rigorous at home quarantine for the non vaccinated.


Trudeau has never followed the public health guidelines. 
He should have just gone to the official residence "under police enforced quarantine"

To be honest, he shouldn't he's the PM, he's got a country to run.
Also (and I said this when Harper was PM), the opposition should have access to private government jets etc to do their jobs as well.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Ignoring the rules they set is politicians' specialty.
Country would be much better off if he was quarantined until end of the term, but alas. 10h it is.
Big middle finger to the suckers not being able to get the test result within 14 days and having to extend the quarantine.
How does one see that and simply not return a middle finger right back when asked to follow the rules they so blatantly ignore


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

EU is opening countries for international travel and our Joker from Ottawa extend border closure with US for another month ....pathetic ...


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I returned from the USA in the middle part of April . I guessing 200,000 fully vaccinated snowbirds came back this spring. I was shocked and amazed that this sad excuse for a government wasn't tracking the vaccinated returnee


gibor365 said:


> EU is opening countries for international travel and our Joker from Ottawa extend border closure with US for another month ....pathetic ...


one of the stated reasons for continuing the restrictions is to track the effectiveness of the vaccines for returnees. I found it amazing they hadn't doing that back in January. If you are trying to find a bright light in this Trudeau government you are only going to find darkness and incompetence.


----------



## Ricehammer4416 (Jan 6, 2021)

Agree 100 percent with Mr.Matt. I'm not fan but the last thing we should want is our PM sitting in a quarentine hotel. He is the PM of the country.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just read








Canada lifting restrictions for fully vaccinated travellers in early July


Canada will be lifting most international travel restrictions for Canadians, permanent residents, and certain foreign nationals who are fully vaccinated, starting July 5. Eligible travellers will not have to self-isolate but will still have to take COVID-19 tests before and upon arrival in this...




www.ctvnews.ca





I don't get this point
*WHAT RESTRICTIONS REMAIN?*
_The requirement to be asymptomatic remains, as do the mandatory pre-departure and on-arrival molecular testing requirements for fully vaccinated travellers. Travellers will have to have an adequate quarantine plan in place in case border agents determine a period of self-isolation is required, and will have to keep copies of their test results for 14 days upon arrival. _

What are conditions when "_border agents determine a period of self-isolation is required"?_
I also don't understand if I should perform any tests if I'm fully vaccinated.?
??

From another article _Officials said travellers must electronically submit COVID-19-related information to the government's ArriveCAN app before arriving,* meet the pre- and on-arrival test requirements, be asymptomatic and have a suitable quarantine plan. *_

*What are those  pre- and on-arrival test requirements?!*


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ricehammer4416 said:


> Agree 100 percent with Mr.Matt. I'm not fan but the last thing we should want is our PM sitting in a quarentine hotel. He is the PM of the country.


And what about people who are flying with him?! His family?! His secretary?! Ministers?! Do you advise to create list of "special" people who should have special privileges'?!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes just because he has made a mess go everything he touches is no reason to treat him like a virus.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Yes just because he has made a mess go everything he touches is no reason to treat him like a virus.


Trudeau is the most dangerous variant of concern LOL


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

This lack of process for normalizing the US/Canada border is an indictment against this government. Other countries have developed vaccine passports or are well on the way for developing them. Canada doesn't seem to anything going on this front. The level of vaccinations on both sides of the border has drastically reduced the risk of covid. On a scale of health issues facing the public this is not near the top of the list. Shortly Regeneron and EI Lily will have an anti-viral pill which administered to people who have tested positive will almost eliminate the possibility of hospitalization.. Its time the public got out of their fear and bunker mentality and demanded that the government get off its rearend and move towards freedom and liberty.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

But a large majority of Canadians don't want restrictions removed yet...according to the latest Leger poll.

So, Trudeau could defy the people and open up...........or choose not to and make the majority of people happy.

Decisions.........decisions......


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> What are conditions when "_border agents determine a period of self-isolation is required"?_
> I also don't understand if I should perform any tests if I'm fully vaccinated.?
> ??
> 
> ...


Basically you need to have a negative PCR test before you enter the country. Then on entry, they will re-test you, and if you test positive on that test, you will need to self-isolate. If you test negative you can go about your business.


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> But a large majority of Canadians don't want restrictions removed yet...according to the latest Leger poll.
> 
> So, Trudeau could defy the people and open up...........or choose not to and make the majority of people happy.
> 
> Decisions.........decisions......


You follow polls or you can be a leader. Leaders don't put their finger up in air the before they decide to lead. The public has been so bombarded with a constant dose of fear that they can't see the trees fot
r the forrest. Much of this comes from people who has a steady and secure source of income. There are many thousands in the tourist , hospitality , airline industry and other sectors who don't have that level of comfort.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We don't even have Provincial borders open yet, so I think "leaders" from many levels of government are removing restrictions with a great deal of caution.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

zinfit said:


> You follow polls or you can be a leader. Leaders don't put their finger up in air the before they decide to lead. The public has been so bombarded with a constant dose of fear that they can't see the trees fot
> r the forrest. Much of this comes from people who has a steady and secure source of income. There are many thousands in the tourist , hospitality , airline industry and other sectors who don't have that level of comfort.


So they can vote Conservative if they want a party that aligns with their opinion. Other voters appear to view the situation differently.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Spudd said:


> Basically you need to have a negative PCR test before you enter the country. Then on entry, they will re-test you, and if you test positive on that test, you will need to self-isolate. If you test negative you can go about your business.


And how is it possible? If I fly for 1 week to Cuba or EU, where I'm going to do PCR test?! And happens if I come back to Canada and don't have PCR test?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> You follow polls or you can be a leader. Leaders don't put their finger up in air the before they decide to lead. The public has been so bombarded with a constant dose of fear that they can't see the trees fot
> r the forrest. Much of this comes from people who has a steady and secure source of income. There are many thousands in the tourist , hospitality , airline industry and other sectors who don't have that level of comfort.


I hate to break it to you, but all politicians find parades and get in front of them.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> But a large majority of Canadians don't want restrictions removed yet...according to the latest Leger poll.
> 
> So, Trudeau could defy the people and open up...........or choose not to and make the majority of people happy.
> 
> Decisions.........decisions......


So what you are saying, decisions during the pandemic are made based on polls and not science?
Not like we have been saying that for months. Trudeau ignores science and sacrifices lives of people for his own benefit.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

UEFA UERO 2020, All across Europe, tens thousands of fans attend every game (up to 56K per game) and in Ontario ....we have a rule (that obviously nobody following) saying *"Outdoor social gatherings and organized public events for up to 10 people" LOL *
What a retarded place !!! We are ruled by morons!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> UEFA UERO 2020, All across Europe, tens thousands of fans attend every game (up to 56K per game) and in Ontario ....we have a rule (that obviously nobody following) saying *"Outdoor social gatherings and organized public events for up to 10 people" LOL *
> What a retarded place !!! We are ruled by morons!


Up to 56,000 people per game. Ludicrous!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

They will be getting another wave of COVID.

How soon they forget being locked in their homes and singing to each other from their balconies.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> I hate to break it to you, but all politicians find parades and get in front of them.


 Not true . Following polls isn't leading . True leaders make tough decisions which at the time won't win a popularity contest. As someone said Trudeau is following the polls rather then the science. The Indian variant might be an issue for the unvaccinated . I have lost patience with this group and if this is the script for them so be it. I read a piece about a large restaurant and bar in the USA. Patrons who have been vaccinated are seated on one side with no restrictions. The unvaccinated are seated in a section and they are subject to restricted seating and are required to wear masks. I hope this becomes the standard for public outings and gatherings.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> They will be getting another wave of COVID.
> 
> How soon they forget being locked in their homes and singing to each other from their balconies.


 .. luckily, we here in Ontario, Canada, are opening our stadiums for mass vaccinations right now.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The virus is airborne and transmitted through ventilation systems, so sectioning off areas for vaccinated and un-vaccinated people isn't a solution.

I will avoid any confined places that allows non-vaccinated people in. I am not risking my health so a business can make more money.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Hungary has been reopen and with full stadiums for a long time. There isn't another wave.
There might be in the fall, just as any other country that has restrictions (which have been proven to be absolutely useless), but it won't be caused by full stadiums in may.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Hungary didn't handle the pandemic very well, with the worst death rate in the world.

The CDC also warns against travel to Hungary and it is rated as a "high" risk country.

If they want to pretend the virus doesn't exist........more power to them.









COVID-19 and Travel


CDC travel recommendations during the COVID-19 pandemic.




wwwnc.cdc.gov


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Hungary has been reopen and with full stadiums for a long time. There isn't another wave.
> There might be in the fall, *just as any other country that has restrictions *(which have been proven to be absolutely useless), but it won't be caused by full stadiums in may.


 ... depending on who says so.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Hungary didn't handle the pandemic very well, with the worst death rate in the world.
> 
> The CDC also warns against travel to Hungary and it is rated as a "high" risk country.
> 
> ...


 .. and funny enough, that may be a country on the bottom of the list "to visit" for some desperate vacationers here in Canada.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... depending on who says so.


Science says so.
Science says that any restrictions after may 2020 are useless.
And Hungary had lockdowns, including curfews etc. Which proved absolutely useless, hence the high death rate (which has more to do with hospital care).
Then they stopped the lockdowns, opened up, and nothing bad happened. No other waves.
They didn't ignore the virus. They simply didn't ignore the fact that lockdowns proved to be completely useless after trying them for so long, so opened up and there were no extra waves after that


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> And how is it possible? If I fly for 1 week to Cuba or EU, where I'm going to do PCR test?! And happens if I come back to Canada and don't have PCR test?


It's a global pandemic. Other countries have PCR testing facilities. I looked up for Cuba, since you specifically mentioned it, and randomly chose Spain as a European destination and found the following:








PCR testing now at select Cuba resorts, says Gomez


TORONTO — In response to the Canadian government’s new PCR testing requirement, Cuba has announced new PCR testing capabilities at resorts in several top travel destinations.




www.travelweek.ca








__





COVID PCR test in Barcelona: How and Where to Get Tested


How and where to get a coronavirus PCR test in Barcelona. Comparison of different PCR tests options in Barcelona. PCR nasal swab test, PCR saliva test, PCR test prices, urgent PCR tests, testing centre locations and opening days and times for COVID-19 PCR.




www.barcelona-tourist-guide.com





The airline won't let you board your flight to Canada without a negative test, same way they check your passport and required visas for your destination.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Some people think the world should revolve around what they want, but they will always be disappointed.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

No. Some people believe decisions regarding how to run a country should be made based on science, economic principles, facts. Others want them made based on their own, false biases that have no backing in facts.
Unfortunately majority, due to discourse being destroyed through social media and education system not suited in teaching logical thinking, belong to the latter group. You are perfect example of that. Claimed that Hungary ignored the virus while having zero information on the subject, meanwhile facts point to something completely opposite - their restrictions were incredibly hard. Just ineffective. But don't let facts get in the way of your ideology

Why do you think I mentioned Hungary? It is perfect exacmple on how restrictions are absolutely useless.
They had incredibly strict restrictions including lockdowns and curfews. They were hit hard.
Then they stopped with the restrictions when 50% got vaccinated, have concerts, have 60,000 people in the stadiums, no masks, It has been like that for a while now and there is no next wave, no uptake in cases.
Perfect example on how idiotic Canadian government is. The problem is that Canadian government simply refuses to learn. Their ego is too big to admit to mistakes and correct their action.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Restrictions didn't cause Hungary to have the highest death rate from COVID in the world.

To propose that restrictions caused worse outcomes is juvenile.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I didn't claim that restrictions caused Hungary to have highest death rate from COVID. You stating that shows either lack of reading comprehension skills, or an intent to misrepresent argument that you have no merit-based response to. All you offer is ideology without any facts.

Restrictions cause deaths from other reasons.
Restrictions did absolutely nothing to prevent Hungary from having highest death rate from COVID.
Restrictions are completely useless and don't prevent any deaths from COVID.
Restrictions after may 2020 have zero effect on COVID deaths or hospitalizations.

Your last statement is completely inaccurate description of reality.

To propose that restrictions increased amount of COVID deaths is juvenile (poor word, but I will speak your language)
To propose that restrictions decreased amount of COVID deaths is juvenile
There is plenty of evidence that restrictions had absolutely no effect on COVID deaths.

It is juvenile to propose that restrictions didn't cause deaths from reasons other than COVID.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> Some people think the world should revolve around what they want, but they will always be disappointed.


yes the difference from Marxist thinking which believes the world revolves around government control over the lives of the people and the individual means nothing.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Up to 56,000 people per game. Ludicrous!


What is happening in Ontario (and many other provinces) is Ludicrous! Yesterday Ontario already hit the target for Phase 3# of reopening. And we are still in Phase #1 (meaning lockdown). Thank you Dougie! We can gather outdoor up to 10 people LOL... What a jerk! 
Meantime All the World is more or less back to normal life.

P.S. No wonder, Ford's company Deco Labels making a fortune during lockdown... making laws that obligate companies to buy your products is "a very smart business strategy".
I bet that there are other Canadian' "leaders" who is making big profits on absolutely useless lockdown...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> They will be getting another wave of COVID.
> 
> How soon they forget being locked in their homes and singing to each other from their balconies.


If they are getting another wave of COVID, we also gonna get it, regardless of current useless lockdown. At least Europe as well as US enjoying life for several month, and most likely they won't go to a new lockdown....The World is using to live with Covid like with flu. But Ontario/Canada will go from lockdown to lockdown...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The pandemic severely interrupted hospital treatments and surgeries, and created even longer waiting times.

We are now starting to get working on the backlog and if we open up too soon we could be back to adding to the wait times again.

One of our hospitals has a covid outbreak in the organ transplant unit so that has affected people needing transplants.

The hospitals can't function normally if covid is spreading inside them. The doctors and staff have to quarantine and operations are cancelled.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Posts like #339 is all about me, me, me, me, myself, myself, myself, myself, and I, I, I, I , etc.

Btw, Ford (premier of Ontario) don't give a fig of what you wailing about. And neither Trudeau (subject of this thread).


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> We are now starting to get working on the backlog and if we open up too soon we could be back to adding to the wait times again.


But we are open, the government is just acknowledging it. We're a democracy, people have the power.
Look at Trudeau, he never closed the border for his jet setting friends for a reason.

London is at single digits, we're mostly vaccinated.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

We are getting 5.4 infections a day on average, but only have 14% of people over 18 fully vaccinated.

Trudeau should have locked down the border and that was a bad decision. Ford messed up the vaccinations and that was a bad decision.

I am considering voting NDP in the next elections. I encourage others to do so as well.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

sags said:


> We are getting 5.4 infections a day on average, but only have 14% of people over 18 fully vaccinated.
> 
> Trudeau should have locked down the border and that was a bad decision. Ford messed up the vaccinations and that was a bad decision.
> 
> I am considering voting NDP in the next elections. I encourage others to do so as well.


I’m not a huge Ford fan, but the issue in Ontario was always supply. Yes, the booking systems are a little wonky, but the vast majority of people figured it out and they’ve been able to do 200,000+ shots a day. Something that seemed unbelievable reading CMF back in March/April.


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> We are getting 5.4 infections a day on average, but only have 14% of people over 18 fully vaccinated.
> 
> Trudeau should have locked down the border and that was a bad decision. Ford messed up the vaccinations and that was a bad decision.
> 
> I am considering voting NDP in the next elections. I encourage others to do so as well.


surprize, surprize you are an NDP supporter. I would have never guessed.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> We are getting 5.4 infections a day on average, but only have 14% of people over 18 fully vaccinated.
> 
> Trudeau should have locked down the border and that was a bad decision. Ford messed up the vaccinations and that was a bad decision.
> 
> I am considering voting NDP in the next elections. I encourage others to do so as well.


Exactly what did Ford mess up with vaccinations?

They're still supply constrained, and we've had less than a weeks supply the whole time (except AZ for obvious reasons)

You can disagree with the 1 shot ASAP approach, but actually messing up with vaccinations, I don't see it. Even hard core Liberal supporters aren't complaining about how the vaccinations are running, beyond the fact that the system is overwhelmed.

Really of all the issues to complain about, Fords vaccination program, not one of them.


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Exactly what did Ford mess up with vaccinations?
> 
> They're still supply constrained, and we've had less than a weeks supply the whole time (except AZ for obvious reasons)
> 
> ...





MrMatt said:


> Exactly what did Ford mess up with vaccinations?
> 
> They're still supply constrained, and we've had less than a weeks supply the whole time (except AZ for obvious reasons)
> 
> ...


I agree the job of vaccinating a large population in a very large province isn't a sea dunk. Vaccines are getting arms without a big supply in inventory. By almost every performance metric he has done as well as the other provinces. Clearly Slags has a clear anti conservative point of view and his comments have to be taken with a grain of salt. I suspect he is involved with the union gang that carryout these grossly misleading anti-conservativeTV ads.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Exactly what did Ford mess up with vaccinations?
> 
> They're still supply constrained, and we've had less than a weeks supply the whole time (except AZ for obvious reasons)
> 
> ...


The booking system could be more rational. The fact that I can't get a mass vaccine appointment, and I'm left to physically go to pharmacies and ask if they can give me an appointment is kind of silly. I'm not terribly upset about it but it could be more streamlined.

He kind of dithered earlier in the vaccine rollout. They could have pivoted to vaccinating essential workers and high risk communities faster.

Also worth noting that people have generally forgotten all the wailing in late March and April about how disastrous Canada's vaccine procurement had been. Entirely predictable.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> The booking system could be more rational. The fact that I can't get a mass vaccine appointment, and I'm left to physically go to pharmacies and ask if they can give me an appointment is kind of silly. I'm not terribly upset about it but it could be more streamlined.
> 
> He kind of dithered earlier in the vaccine rollout. They could have pivoted to vaccinating essential workers and high risk communities faster.
> 
> Also worth noting that people have generally forgotten all the wailing in late March and April about how disastrous Canada's vaccine procurement had been. Entirely predictable.


I found it easy to use my health units website to book my vaccine appointment. Pretty easy. Easier than arranging my flu shot last fall actually.


Vaccine procurement is a federal responsibility, and that's been the primary problem all along, even today we're still supply constrained, but that will be done soon.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

andrewf said:


> The booking system could be more rational. The fact that I can't get a mass vaccine appointment, and I'm left to physically go to pharmacies and ask if they can give me an appointment is kind of silly. I'm not terribly upset about it but it could be more streamlined.
> 
> He kind of dithered earlier in the vaccine rollout. They could have pivoted to vaccinating essential workers and high risk communities faster.
> 
> Also worth noting that people have generally forgotten all the wailing in late March and April about how disastrous Canada's vaccine procurement had been. Entirely predictable.


I just got my second shot........Moderna this time, at the mass vaccination place. They moved up the appointment from August.

They are now doing 3,000 a day and it is smooth as silk. Kudos to the hundreds of volunteers that are outstanding......helping young and old find their way.

Our family doctor is now taking appointments for Moderna. Have you tried calling your doc ?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Vaccine procurement is a federal responsibility, and that's been the primary problem all along, even today we're still supply constrained, but that will be done soon.


It's not like there is an abundant global supply of vaccine. The pathetic wailing about the US being a month ahead of us was silly on the face of it and that has only been borne out by the subsequent month or two.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

andrewf said:


> It's not like there is an abundant global supply of vaccine. The pathetic wailing about the US being a month ahead of us was silly on the face of it and that has only been borne out by the subsequent month or two.


We were pathetically behind by at least 2 months in the beginning with far too many 'extra' deaths resulting from that delay, and all caused by government bumbling of procurement. We'd lose a war before we even got our military into the field. We are simply awful at Supply & Logistics. Perhaps too many paper pushers in the ivory towers?

There is no excusing the Feds for that lack of ability to get the work done efficiently and effectively out of the starting gate. We are only moving up now to #10 from #299 (exaggeration) because we took a shotgun approach to make up for our shortcomings and we have a more willing population to get jabbed.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US stopped all shipments of Pfizer to Canada. Some vaccine makers went down due to problems or maintenance.

Canada had orders in, but there isn't much they can do if they aren't filled by the manufacturers.

We could have bribed Pfizer or paid them more for the vaccine, but then people would be complaining about that.

One problem is we didn't have domestic manufacturing of key items, including vaccines.........but that is being fixed.

Vaccine and PPE manufacturing will take place in new facilities in Ontario that are being built.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Even today, the US isn't giving us vaccines.

We have lineups waiting to get vaccinated and they are running million dollar lotteries and cash and gifts trying to convince people to get vaccinated.

Hey Joe.........remember us ? If they are in such a hurry to open the US/Canada border......give us some of the surplus vaccine that Americans refuse to take.

P.S. the early deaths from COVID came primarily from LTA homes. They are a Provincial responsibility, and the Feds had to send in the military.

The one fault I lay at Trueau's feet is not closing the border sooner and tighter.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> We were pathetically behind by at least 2 months in the beginning with far too many 'extra' deaths resulting from that delay, and all caused by government bumbling of procurement. We'd lose a war before we even got our military into the field. We are simply awful at Supply & Logistics. Perhaps too many paper pushers in the ivory towers?
> 
> There is no excusing the Feds for that lack of ability to get the work done efficiently and effectively out of the starting gate. We are only moving up now to #10 from #299 (exaggeration) because we took a shotgun approach to make up for our shortcomings and we have a more willing population to get jabbed.


US prohibited Pfizer from supplying us until the end of April. We can blame our American 'friends'.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> US prohibited Pfizer from supplying us until the end of April. We can blame our American 'friends'.


Yes, Trump was blatantly America First, Biden says he'll play nice, but he's just as bad.

It's also more complicated, the US has a massive supply because they ordered Pfizer to produce under National Emergency legislation, which means the product is only for Domestic use. They can't simply export the extra.

To go and say that this emergency National Emergency needs to be distributed internationally might not be legal.
However once they get the legal mess untangled a bit, it makes sense for Pfizer to export the excess.

Finally I don't actually blame Trudeau for his inability to secure vaccine. It's his responsibility, and he likely could have done better. But it was mostly out of his control.
Also he did manage to secure enough needles despite there being problems at the beginning.

For the provinces and needle jabs, they're doing awesome they've moved millions of doses quickly. I never thought this part would be a problem, since we do this every year for the flu shot.

Overall I think the vaccine part of the program was very well executed with no major bumbles by anyone.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

andrewf said:


> US prohibited Pfizer from supplying us until the end of April. We can blame our American 'friends'.


That was only part of the procurement problem. Some other countries did better with their aggressiveness in orders despite not having manufacturing facilities. If one wants a share of a limited production order of anything, including PPE, one must aggressively bid and pay for a spot in the queue directly with source factories and have people on the ground personally loading the goods. Canada has historically sucked the hind teat on procurement it does.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Canada has historically sucked the hind teat on procurement it does.


Plus betting on China was a major error by Trudeau for which he has not yet recovered in spite of blaming the provinces.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Plus betting on China was a major error by Trudeau for which he has not yet recovered in spite of blaming the provinces.


Well you've got to "admire their basic dictatorship"

He's doing quite well, he's laying quite the censorship and media control framework.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Never mind that he considers Parliament obstructionist and toxic rather than the voice of democracy. JT would rather rule by fiat from the podium in front of the cottage.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yes........the Liberals are horrible and the Conservatives are great.

Except they are on opposite ends of the opinion polls, so Conservatives offer the opinion that voting Canadians are dumb and easily misled.

Sounds like a great election platform.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> Yes........the Liberals are horrible and the Conservatives are great.
> 
> Except they are on opposite ends of the opinion polls, so Conservatives offer the opinion that voting Canadians are dumb and easily misled.
> 
> Sounds like a great election platform.


Might not be a good platform but I think you are quite accurate in your assessment of the public. Churchill once said the most damming indictment against democracy was to dialogue with the average voter for 10 minutes.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Never mind that he considers Parliament obstructionist and toxic rather than the voice of democracy. JT would rather rule by fiat from the podium in front of the cottage.


All qualities you admired in Harper...


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Yes........the Liberals are horrible and the Conservatives are great.
> 
> Except they are on opposite ends of the opinion polls, so Conservatives offer the opinion that voting Canadians are dumb and easily misled.
> 
> Sounds like a great election platform.


Well if you vote for Trudeau, you're dumb and misled.

however the CPC has also failed to give a reason to vote for them either.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Well if you vote for Trudeau, you're dumb and misled.
> 
> however the CPC has also failed to give a reason to vote for them either.


How about Anyone But Trudeau?


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

andrewf said:


> All qualities you admired in Harper...


You want to see real leadership go to you tube and watch PM Harper's apology for the residential schools history and impacts. Did he miss anything?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I voted for his Dad and then regretted it. Similar pattern here. But back then Parliament had some role on governing, and Papa had little interest in it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> You want to see real leadership go to you tube and watch PM Harper's apology for the residential schools history and impacts. Did he miss anything?


Sorry, I don't follow.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> That was only part of the procurement problem. *Some other countries did better with their aggressiveness in orders despite not having manufacturing facilities*. If one wants a share of a limited production order of anything, including PPE, one must aggressively bid and pay for a spot in the queue directly with source factories and have people on the ground personally loading the goods. Canada has historically sucked the hind teat on procurement it does.


I'd be curious if you could substantiate that one. The only one that I can think of is Israel, and we've now surpassed them for first dose. We're obviously behind in second dose, but at the rate we're going, I imagine we'll surpass them by August, unless people decide against taking their second dose. Canada was actually pretty proactive in securing multiple sources because we didn't have manufacturing facilities. Even then, Israel did have some issues with payments, and they provided some health data on their citizens. 

Can't really blame procurement when there were production issues when Pfizer and Moderna temporarily shut down to upgrade. A country like Australia took a bet on AstraZeneca and their domestic production capabilities, but there was a shortfall there. They did order 20M doses of Pfizer last year, but had to place another 20M this April and expect that to arrive in the fourth quarter. Compared to us, they're about 2 months behind on their vaccination rate. Japan is similar, as they didn't start procuring vaccines until late into 2020.

Betting on different horses seemed to work out, i.e. Pfizer supply issues earlier this year is being made up by Moderna. We're not the only ones to do that as the UK and Chile also ordered from various sources. However, I question the effectiveness of Sinovac.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Ah well, not directly for other than Israel, but for a long time we were between 30th and 40th place in vaccinations among our peers. I am pretty sure Ottawa (and the provinces) were not simply hoarding the vaccines and not jabbing arms.

The G&M reports that number every day in a covid newsletter. It was well over a month, maybe more before that number started to come down and we still only are about 12th-15th among our peers in getting arms jabbed. We are doing much better with something to cheer about, but the statistics don't lie. We were hopelessly f*cked for a long time and we still don't rate very well being out of the top 10. It is no time to get smug and cocky.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Exactly. 
The total amount of people willing to be vaccinated is dependent entirely on citizens. 
The pace of procurement is dependent entirely on government.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> Exactly.
> The total amount of people willing to be vaccinated is dependent entirely on citizens.
> The pace of procurement is dependent entirely on government.


Entirely dependent on government, eh? Waving fat stacks could have gotten 100M doses of vaccine last summer?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Entirely dependent on government, eh? Waving fat stacks could have gotten 100M doses of vaccine last summer?


Clearly you can procure only something that was actually developed. Last summer no. Starting in december 2020 yes.
Not only fat stacks. There is more value in good organization and data, especially for vaccines that are still experimental and only under emergency use authorization and not fully approved. This is how Israel got to be first in line.
People seem to forget that for entire first quarter we were out of top 50 in pace of vaccination. 
And that is entirely dependent on government since the jabs were put in people arms as soon as they arrived.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Correction to my previous post: G&M yesterday reports that Canada is now 10th in its rate of inoculation!


> In the past seven days, *4,483* cases were reported, down *29 per cent* from the previous seven days. There were *152 *deaths announced, *up 8 per cent* over the same period. At least *806 *people are being treated in hospitals and *1,380,110* others are considered recovered.
> 
> 
> Canada’s inoculation rate is *10th* among countries with a population of one million or more people.
> ...


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> The G&M reports that number every day in a covid newsletter. It was well over a month, maybe more before that number started to come down and we still only are about 12th-15th among our peers in getting arms jabbed. We are doing much better with something to cheer about, but the statistics don't lie. We were hopelessly f*cked for a long time and we still don't rate very well being out of the top 10. It is no time to get smug and cocky.


I'm not saying to get smug and cocky, but what peer countries are you talking about? Keep in mind, there are certain countries that have relatively small populations (<10M), so any per capita stat will reflect high on them (both good and bad). 

When I look at this chart, it does look like Canada was at the bottom of the G7 between end of Jan to March... well aside from Japan. Though that was still early and there were supply issues. And when I mean at the bottom, we're talking about less than fractions of percentages as far as first doses are concerned, but then things changed in April. 









UK jumped out ahead early, but now they're in the middle of their fourth wave.










Hopefully we can avoid that, which is why I'm not too anxious about the government taking its time to loosen restrictions.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> Clearly you can procure only something that was actually developed. Last summer no. Starting in december 2020 yes.
> Not only fat stacks. There is more value in good organization and data, especially for vaccines that are still experimental and only under emergency use authorization and not fully approved. This is how Israel got to be first in line.
> People seem to forget that for entire first quarter we were out of top 50 in pace of vaccination.
> And that is entirely dependent on government since the jabs were put in people arms as soon as they arrived.


Might that have had anything to do with Pfizer contracts invalidated by US government export bans? It is completely unreasonable to think Trudeau had it entirely in his power to get Trump to make Canada first.

The vaccine does not only have to be developed. It has to be produced. There is an extreme shortage of vaccine production capacity as compared to the need.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> I'm not saying to get smug and cocky, but what peer countries are you talking about? Keep in mind, there are certain countries that have relatively small populations (<10M), so any per capita stat will reflect high on them (both good and bad).
> 
> When I look at this chart, it does look like Canada was at the bottom of the G7 between end of Jan to March... well aside from Japan. Though that was still early and there were supply issues. And when I mean at the bottom, we're talking about less than fractions of percentages as far as first doses are concerned, but then things changed in April.
> View attachment 21826
> ...


I'm inclined to wait a month or two until we have substantially all of the adult population fully vaccinated before we go crazy with relaxing distancing. Even small increases in daily exposure to others substantially increases the rate of infection.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

That graph is literally why government decided to sacrifice lives of seniors, not allow them to get full protection, and apply only first doses.
One should look at total shots. A country that has 50% fully vaccinated population did better job in procurement than a country that has 75% with first shot and 20% with 2nd shot.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

andrewf said:


> Might that have had anything to do with Pfizer contracts invalidated by US government export bans? It is completely unreasonable to think Trudeau had it entirely in his power to get Trump to make Canada first.
> 
> The vaccine does not only have to be developed. It has to be produced. There is an extreme shortage of vaccine production capacity as compared to the need.


Again. Canada was outside of top 50. That means more than 50 countries managed to avoid or mitigate effects of the ban better than Canadian government did.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> I'm not saying to get smug and cocky, but what peer countries are you talking about? Keep in mind, there are certain countries that have relatively small populations (<10M), so any per capita stat will reflect high on them (both good and bad).


Smaller countries have less resources too (people and money and expertise) to undertake programs, just like countries like the UK have 2-3 times our resources to undertake programs. That makes no difference on a per capita basis. There is absolutely no excuse for Canada with about the world's 7-9th largest economy to have faltered so badly.



> When I look at this chart, it does look like Canada was at the bottom of the G7 between end of Jan to March... well aside from Japan. Though that was still early and there were supply issues. And when I mean at the bottom, we're talking about less than fractions of percentages as far as first doses are concerned, but then things changed in April.


Of course, it was a supply problem. The same problem every other country had and yet about 40 of them (maybe more) were ahead of us on a per capita basis for a time. It is time to stop making excuses for bureaucratic (and some political) incompetence out of the starting gate for a country with as many human and financial resources as we have.

Additionally, your chart is also misleading about where Canada (and the UK) actually stand. Single dose rate itself isn't all that much to cheer about. It is total inoculation rate which factors in second doses too. We are perhaps at 50% (75% single dose and 25% second dose) inoculation rate. There is no credibility in anyone trying to refute real life results.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

If Pfizer is 92% effective after one dose, why is single dose rate nothing to cheer about? It is a more intelligent allocation of resources.

I get it, you are highly motivated to find fault. The Canadian government's vaccine procurement was certainly not world beating, but it was hardly a catastrophe. There were only 2-3 countries that were head and shoulders better performing than Canada, namely UK, US and Israel. The first two benefited from exercising control over domestic vaccine production capacity. Israel is well connected and has a relatively small population.

If you're trying to make political hay out of this, I don't think most Canadians are going to be particularly swayed.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

It isn't though. Maybe it was against original various. It isn't against variants, and variants are dominant for a long time now.

And effectiveness of first dose vs full inoculation is separate debate.
Showing only first dose % rather than vaccines applied/population is disingenuous and misleading when judging procurement, which the conversation is about.

And you are wrong on the 2-3 countries. There were over 50 countries that were procuring vaccines faster than Canadian government Entire EU for example


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I said 2-3 that were head and shoulders ahead. As in significantly. One country being at 1% while another is at 0.5% is not significant.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Smaller countries have less resources too (people and money and expertise) to undertake programs, just like countries like the UK have 2-3 times our resources to undertake programs. That makes no difference on a per capita basis. There is absolutely no excuse for Canada with about the world's 7-9th largest economy to have faltered so badly.
> 
> 
> Of course, it was a supply problem. The same problem every other country had and yet about 40 of them (maybe more) were ahead of us on a per capita basis for a time. It is time to stop making excuses for bureaucratic (and some political) incompetence out of the starting gate for a country with as many human and financial resources as we have.
> ...


The thing about smaller countries is that fewer resources are required as well. So getting a fraction of the doses that Canada would require is much easier and a supplier can easily accommodate, and then you'll see an outsized per capita result. 

Yes, second dose would be the better result; however, there's already studies and it's been accepted that pushing out the first dose on a wider population was more effective. Note, I was against that.

Basically, when you talk about supply problems, you're complaining that Canada wasn't prioritized ahead of the others. However, I'd argue that the government was fairly proactive and was near the front of the line for Pfizer and Moderna. Since all the production was coming from Europe, and that's when some factories had to retool, what exactly would you expect the government to do? EU was already considering to restrict vaccine exports. Ideally Canada would have its own domestic production capabilities, but those don't spring up overnight. But we'll have some over the next year or so.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

andrewf said:


> I said 2-3 that were head and shoulders ahead. As in significantly. One country being at 1% while another is at 0.5% is not significant.


If the standard for the government is to be only slightly worse than 50 other countries then I guess that is fine.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> If Pfizer is 92% effective after one dose, why is single dose rate nothing to cheer about? It is a more intelligent allocation of resources.


I don't think they knew that at the start of the plan, but the data is here now and we know the "one dose ASAP" plan is a gamble that paid off.
Plus with second doses ramping up we're on track to become one of hte countries with the highest overall vaccine uptake.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't know if the results are all in yet. By delaying second doses, people were forced to mix vaccines with Moderna for a second shot.

Time will tell how that works out, because it wasn't recommended protocol by the vaccine makers or the CDC and was never tested.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> The thing about smaller countries is that fewer resources are required as well. So getting a fraction of the doses that Canada would require is much easier and a supplier can easily accommodate, and then you'll see an outsized per capita result.
> 
> Yes, second dose would be the better result; however, there's already studies and it's been accepted that pushing out the first dose on a wider population was more effective. Note, I was against that.
> 
> Basically, when you talk about supply problems, you're complaining that Canada wasn't prioritized ahead of the others. However, I'd argue that the government was fairly proactive and was near the front of the line for Pfizer and Moderna. Since all the production was coming from Europe, and that's when some factories had to retool, what exactly would you expect the government to do? EU was already considering to restrict vaccine exports. Ideally Canada would have its own domestic production capabilities, but those don't spring up overnight. But we'll have some over the next year or so.


Those are excuses, not legitimate reasons. Canada should have been as good as (or better) than our peers given the depth of our resources on a per capita basis. Given our 2 month lag of being 40th or worse, the facts speak for themselves. I don't understand the apparent need to sugarcoat our initial inability to get out of the starting gate, albeit we have been catching up and may well surpass most others on an overall inoculation rate. Denial is not a good way to critically assess our performance and do better next time.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Those are excuses, not legitimate reasons. Canada should have been as good as (or better) than our peers given the depth of our resources on a per capita basis. Given our 2 month lag of being 40th or worse, the facts speak for themselves. I don't understand the apparent need to sugarcoat our initial inability to get out of the starting gate, albeit we have been catching up and may well surpass most others on an overall inoculation rate. Denial is not a good way to critically assess our performance and do better next time.


I'm not trying to deny, or excuse. But what exactly do you propose that we have done? I mean concretely, not, "We should have secured more vaccines".


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

That's the problem. We don't know, because there is zero transparency in this government. They literally are suing MPs to prevent them from getting any information. 
We can't say what exactly they messed up because we don't know what they actually did and for some reason they try to hide it.
We do know though that majority of developed countries did better in getting vaccines faster, so clearly it was very much possible to do better than Canadian government did.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

damian13ster said:


> That's the problem. We don't know, because there is zero transparency in this government. They literally are suing MPs to prevent them from getting any information.
> We can't say what exactly they messed up because we don't know what they actually did and for some reason they try to hide it.
> We do know though that majority of developed countries did better in getting vaccines faster, so clearly it was very much possible to do better than Canadian government did.


Basically, your argument is, "we should have gotten vaccines earlier because others did", but have no idea under what circumstances. We know Israel got priority by paying twice the price and giving Pfizer access to the medical records. As it is, it looks as though Canada is paying more than the vaccines than others: Canada spent $24M on COVID-19 vaccines received in January: StatCan, so what other levers are you suggesting that Canada use?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

You have the very response in my post. I don't know, because there is no transparency. How can you say what could be done better if you don't know what was actually done? Despite the money being spent and used is actually yours as a taxpayer.

The only thing we can judge on are results.
Also, wouldn't you think that it would be better to pay twice for the doses required by Canada, rather than order 3x doses actually needed. You actually get the doses faster AND you save money in the process. Hell, pay 3x. Same spending, better results.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> I'm not trying to deny, or excuse. But what exactly do you propose that we have done? I mean concretely, not, "We should have secured more vaccines".


History is history and the damage is done. The point is for those responsible to acknowledge and accept responsibility and accountability for not being competitive with peer nations, and make the necessary changes to ensure this won't happen again. It may be too early to do an 'inquiry' but it has to be done, with attendant changes, if we are to have any confidence dealing with a real superbug in the future. Imagine if covid-19 had the mortality rate of SARS. It probably is not a matter of if, but when.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> History is history and the damage is done. The point is for those responsible to acknowledge and accept responsibility and accountability for not being competitive with peer nations, and make the necessary changes to ensure this won't happen again. It may be too early to do an 'inquiry' but it has to be done, with attendant changes, if we are to have any confidence dealing with a real superbug in the future. Imagine if covid-19 had the mortality rate of SARS. It probably is not a matter of if, but when.


Inquiries are fine, but I doubt they'll lead to anything. But having some domestic capability will help, with Novavax/NRC facility, and Precision Nanosystems (2023) in BC coming on-line.

My issue, are the armchair procurement "experts" who think that the federal government should have done better, yet don't actually say how. Basically, I hear, "We should have gotten vaccines sooner, the government screwed up. Don't know how they screwed up, but they did." They had made the procurement deals in July/August ahead of most countries, and were able to get some delivery in December. The Globeandmail has an article about the shortfalls, but aside from saying that Canada didn't make as good a deal as the UK, the majority of the article is about the lack of domestic manufacturing capabilities: Canada’s missed shots: How Ottawa’s COVID-19 vaccine promises were out of step with reality.

I'll point out that when saying other countries did better, like Chile or Morocco as mentioned in the article, they used Chinese covid vaccines that have questionable efficiency. Despite Chile's vaccination rates, their caseload is higher than ours. Of course, it could be due to loosening of restrictions in combination of non-effective vaccine, or the lack of second shots. Morocco is doing better.










As far as vaccination rates are concerned:


















Chile may have a higher percentage of fully vaccinated, but they have a higher case load. All to say, you can point to these other countries, but you also have to look at some of the particulars. For example, Russia and China both went with vaccine diplomacy and were shipping them out as fast as possible. Would you have been comfortable with getting a lot of early Russian and Chinese vaccines?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I am not all that interested in active cases per capita from any country given the number of major variables possible that will affect that rate, especially in testing rate, i.e. you don't get an active case if there has not been a test, density of population, and income level, i.e. we know the working poor have no choice but to work in most countries and live in crowded multi-generational conditions. The data may be interesting but it does not say a whole lot about state competence. A case count in Peru bears no relationship to that in Canada.

What we can all measure and care about is vaccination rate where the numbers cannot lie, at least not without a state cover up. We also won't know where the 'blame' lies unless there is a formal inquiry or equivalent, so why press the argument about demanding armchair quarterbacking articulate the 'how'. Of course we don't know how without knowing how it was f*cked up in the first place. How much of it is bureaucratic in Procurement and Health? Was there interference from Treasury and/or Finance? How much interference from the political arm, e.g. PMO? Why couldn't Canada contract an 'equal' place at the table? 

None of us will know how to fix it until there is testimony under oath. This is not all that complicated if there is a will and desire to improve.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> If the standard for the government is to be only slightly worse than 50 other countries then I guess that is fine.


I think of it as being part of the peloton. Canada, on balance, has done much better than the countries you're lauding (UK and US had much worse pandemics), despite being slow in the initial vaccine rollout. Practically speaking, we were only a month or 6 weeks behind. You can wail and tear at your shirt over that but it is not the biggest disaster.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> We also won't know where the 'blame' lies unless there is a formal inquiry or equivalent, so why press the argument about demanding armchair quarterbacking articulate the 'how'. Of course we don't know how without knowing how it was f*cked up in the first place. How much of it is bureaucratic in Procurement and Health? Was there interference from Treasury and/or Finance? How much interference from the political arm, e.g. PMO? Why couldn't Canada contract an 'equal' place at the table?


You just think that the government screwed up, and looking for proof, basically setting the cart before the horse. What if at the end of the day the inquiry is completed and it turns out that they did everything as quickly as possible and bypassed most normal procurement procedures? For example, normally for any large scale procurement, the government posts on buyandsell.gc.ca for at least 90 days, particularly for goods under WTO regulations. Interference from PMO? Let's be serious, under what motivation would any of the departments have to slow down the process?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

We don't know what we don't know, so everything is on the table. The following quote from the G&M is political spin and positioning but it does mention what needs to be done as I have been articulating


> On Tuesday, Mr. O’Toole talked about part of his offer to Canadian voters, promising Canada Emergency Preparedness Plan to protect the country from COVID-19 and future pandemics.
> 
> 
> Pieces of the plan include working with pharmaceutical companies to escalate domestic manufacturing of critical medicines and active ingredients, working with the United States to strengthen the North American supply chain, and calling an immediate public inquiry into the government’s pandemic response.
> ...


Canadians have a right to know. You are obviously dug in in defense of something, so I will leave it at that.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> We don't know what we don't know, so everything is on the table. The following quote from the G&M is political spin and positioning but it does lay out what needs to be done as I have been articulating
> Canadians have a right to know. You are obviously dug in in defense of something, so I will leave it at that.


Here's the thing that annoys me to no end and I circle back to the armchair quarterbacking. Basically you're just saying that government screwed up, but can't explain how you think it screwed up. Not only that, you don't think you need to explain how you think they screwed up. O'Toole is saying the exact same thing and that's probably why I don't think much of the opposition. They like to criticize and complaint, but never offer up an alternative. Their proposal for securing domestic production capabilities is already underway, so what are they offering? If it was something like O'Toole saying they should have secured vaccines by x,y,z, that could be a good discussion point. But just saying, they screwed up, isn't much of a discussion point. As for the border, easier said then done when we have a porous border with the US. 

So here's my question, what exactly is the smoking gun that you're looking for to indicate that the government screwed up?

We know that domestic production is an issue and not something that's readily addressable. And let's be clear, until covid hit, no government: Liberal, Conservative, or NDP would likely have made the required investment. Although, that could end up betting the house on one horse, and if the development failed like GSK, Merck, Sanofi, we would have been more behind the 8-ball like Australia.

Here's another thought. What if Pfizer put Canada in a lower priority because they didn't like Canada's pharmaceutical policies, or lack of tax breaks? We know most pharmaceutical companies aren't too happy with Canada's pharmaceutical practices with our propensity to use generics. 

Like I said before, if you wanted quick vaccines, we could have went with Sputnik or the various Chinese vaccines (including the CanSino that we were working on), but those options were off the table. But, those were the options that some of the "less-powerful" countries took. Even the EU was considering that route. We know the EU also were affected by the Pfizer supply, so here's some comparison graphs. For first dose, Canada lagged for a few months, and overall we're lagging for full vaccination, but we will catch up.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> I don't know if the results are all in yet. By delaying second doses, people were forced to mix vaccines with Moderna for a second shot.
> 
> Time will tell how that works out, because it wasn't recommended protocol by the vaccine makers or the CDC and was never tested.


CDC is firmly against mixing vaccines except "extraordinary situations" , this is why I walk away when offered Moderna. No study, no trials ... Ontario just has has too many Moderna and wants to deploy it regardless....


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I think of it as being part of the peloton. Canada, on balance, has done much better than the countries you're lauding (UK and US had much worse pandemics), despite being slow in the initial vaccine rollout. Practically speaking, we were only a month or 6 weeks behind. You can wail and tear at your shirt over that but it is not the biggest disaster.


Really?! In Israel people like me got fully vaccinated in February, here even in July I cannot get 2nd Pfizer dose.
I also like that every week Canada reporthat ting a lot "not reported in time" cases and deaths ,
I also wouldn't tell "UK and US had much worse pandemics" , there are more deaths from lockdowns than from Covid, and next couple of years there will be disaster in Ontario specifically with "tsunami of cancer" and other serious diseases


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Really?! In Israel people like me got fully vaccinated in February, here even in July I cannot get 2nd Pfizer dose.
> I also like that every week Canada reporthat ting a lot "not reported in time" cases and deaths ,
> I also wouldn't tell "UK and US had much worse pandemics" , there are more deaths from lockdowns than from Covid, and next couple of years there will be disaster in Ontario specifically with "tsunami of cancer" and other serious diseases


I would suggest booking your 2nd dose at Walmart.ca. They let you specify which vaccine you are looking for.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> CDC is firmly against mixing vaccines except "extraordinary situations" , this is why I walk away when offered Moderna. No study, no trials ... Ontario just has has too many Moderna and wants to deploy it regardless....


Except there are studies and trials.

But go ahead listen to foreign governments instead.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I was able to book my second dose yesterday, for July 7. I am not being precious about Moderna vs Pfizer, though.

I think you can shop for a pharmacy that only does Pfizer vaccinations, but the pharmacy booking process is a shitshow.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I was able to book my second dose yesterday, for July 7. I am not being precious about Moderna vs Pfizer, though.
> 
> I think you can shop for a pharmacy that only does Pfizer vaccinations, but the pharmacy booking process is a shitshow.


What did you get for the1st dose ?
I agree that " pharmacy booking process is a shitshow."! I tried couple of times and ...gave up ..
I have next attempt Jul 4 at UTM (THP)


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I got Pfizer on May 20.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

While Canada is opening the borders, Australia is doing the reverse due to the spread of the delta variant.

Australia is reducing its international arrivals by 50%, to limit the number of people entering. *Virus leaks from hotel quarantines* have been the source of numerous outbreaks.

So if Australia, with very strict quarantine measures, is seeing the virus escape the barrier and get into the community... anyone want to guess if the virus is getting through the very relaxed and barely enforced Canadian quarantine system?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Well our experience in interacting with the government testing process certainly confirms that it is overly complex and ineffective. Flyclear, ArriveCan and Switch, all reasonable applications with limitations and none doing the whole job by design.

And at great personal expense, we avoided the hotel gulag because we knew it was a bad idea from the getgo.


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