# Minimum purchase for Visa.



## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Hey,

I am wondering what you guys think about this. So on the long weekend I went on a motorcycle trip. Now my motorcycle has a small gas tank, around 12L so it is usually under $10 to fill as I don't run it totally empty. So I stopped in a small town to buy some gas and I filled up and it was something around $5.00. So I went in to pay and pulled out my visa and the lady got very angry at me, she started yelling and calling me inconsiderate for trying to pay with a visa and this is costing her money. In the end she said I had to buy $10.00 worth of gas to accept my visa. Well since I am not able to hold more that was just not possible.

Anyway I went and pulled a 20.00 out of an ATM and paid for it. Mostly due to her reaction I was thinking about this for a while and was pretty annoyed by it. I was thinking to my self, it did not say anywhere that there is a minimum purchase for visa, so am I really responsible for this as I am not informed. 

The way I see it is, there was no sign stating a minimum purchase, I do have a visa to pay, and she will not accept it. So since she is not accepting my method of payment that is displayed on the door as an acceptable method of payment, should I really have to do anything.

Way I see it is a paid 8.50 for 5.00 in gas due to transaction fees, which is what she didn't want so, why should I?

I guess this is more of a rant than a serious question, but I am interested in what you guys think.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

It's a tug-of-war for sure and the CC companies have been lobbying hard to get more rights for retailers to directly pass on the merchant fees charged on transactions. Some of the credit cards, such as the cashback and other luxury cards have very high fees which can exceed retailer profit margins.

That said, this is a good example of why I always carry cash in my pocket for small transactions like this. I do think it is silly to pay for sub-$20 purchases with plastic. I go to my own bank's ATM every couple of weeks and withdraw cash to use for small purchases. That way I am ready for situations such as you describe.

Besides, it is also a security risk every time you use plastic as there could be card readers or PIN-stealing devices attached. That does not stop me from using plastic, but I do try to reserve it for the low volume of larger purchases to lower my risks.

So I feel this comes down to personal choices and tolerance for making retailers mad and getting into arguments and paying ripoff foreign ATM fees. Think it through using common sense (not rhetoric or laziness) and guide yourself accordingly. Outcomes are based on your decisions.


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Was the ATM a no-name brand within her gas station? If so, she got a fee from it.

There is a cost to the retailer for using your credit card - more for some than for others. And IMHO, she should have a sign up (at the pump, not the door) if she doesn't want to take small Visa purchases. But if you received the gas (and I guess you couldn't return it), you still have to pay for it.

I would not have gone to the ATM myself, and would have stomped my feet until she took the Visa. Alternately (her choice), she could accept an IOU, and wait until I was back in town with cash.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Fraser19 said:


> Hey, ...
> 
> I am wondering *what you guys think about this. *
> 
> I guess *this is more of a rant than a serious question*, but I am interested in what you guys think.


 ... next time, make sure you have the tank full before making the trip. Think of it this way - at least there was a gas station for you to fill up and you had the cash. :biggrin:

On the serious side, just don't use this merchant next time, even they're wrong not to post a mininum for credit card uses. Small merchants don't like accepting credit card for small payments since the cc fees eat up alot of their profits (if any).


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

You might be surprised how much the merchant pays in fees. Enough to wipe out the profit on small purchases. I don't blame small businesses for not wanting to lose money this way but they should put up a sign. 

As a rule, in small mom and pop businesses I pay with cash for this reason, unless the purchase is over $100. In chain stores and bigger businesses they don't seem to care.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Beaver101 said:


> ... next time, make sure you have the tank full before making the trip. (if any).


I did have a full tank, however it only holds 12L so I have to fill often.

For me I almost always use my CC for my aero plan points, and I almost never carry cash. If I lose my wallet I can cancel my cards, but my cash is gone forever.



wendi1 said:


> Was the ATM a no-name brand within her gas station? If so, she got a fee from it. *Yes*
> 
> I would not have gone to the ATM myself, and would have stomped my feet until she took the Visa. *I did feel like doing that simply because she was very rude, but more than anything I just wanted to get on my way*.


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

I've seen many stores with min amounts for credit cards. usually $10 or $20. As noted, fees is the reason. Others don't let you use cards for lotto and/or transit passes since their margins on those are so low.

I would have added pop, candy, etc to bring the total to $10. A better deal than the $3.50 you paid to withdraw $20.

And I agree that they should have had the notice on the pump.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

We generally charge _everything_ over about $8, (perhaps less)....but then we have the option (since the fuel isn't in the tank) of saying "Bye Bye" if they refuse to accept our Visa......never happened yet.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Fraser19 said:


> I did have a full tank, however it only holds 12L so I have to fill often.
> 
> For me I almost always use my CC for my aero plan points, and I almost never carry cash. *If I lose my wallet I can cancel my cards, but my cash is gone forever*.


 ... in this case, you might meet the same scenario with the second merchant if you to continuously need to fill your tank for your "planned" road trip. 

You don't need a wallet to carry cash - roll a $5, $10 or $20 bill and put it into your sock(s) (but then don't lose your shoes/socks) ... and if you run into the same scenario, use those bill(s) then. :biggrin:


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> You might be surprised how much the merchant pays in fees. Enough to wipe out the profit on small purchases. I don't blame small businesses for not wanting to lose money this way but they should put up a sign.
> 
> As a rule, in small mom and pop businesses I pay with cash for this reason, unless the purchase is over $100. In chain stores and bigger businesses they don't seem to care.


Cost of doing business. If you don't offer credit card payments, your customers would (most of them) go elsewhere. We live in a society who thrives off credit. In other words, a business who offers credit card as a form of payment is increasing their profits overall, even with the fees involved.

We own a small business and from day one have accepted credit cards. It's about 4% we pay because we don't do a lot of business, but if we did more business we would look for something more economical. I have no sympathy for those companies who charge a service fee (which from what I understand is against their agreement with the credit card company and bank/financial institution who offer the debit service to them). Perhaps someone with more direct knowledge can verify (or nullify) this - I don't have our business's cc agreement easily available to me right now or I would quote from it.


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

I am surprised by two things:

1) that you could 'fill up' for $5. 
2) you didn't have to pay before you pumped.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Charlie said:


> I am surprised by two things:
> 
> 1) that you could 'fill up' for $5.
> 2) you didn't have to pay before you pumped.


I am basically always filling with 4-7 dollars of gas. My bike does not have a fuel gauge so when I have gone over 70 km and I see a station I get gas. I would rather buy 2.00 in gas, over pushing a bike 30km.
Also in Alberta most gas stations are not pre-pay.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Fraser19 said:


> Hey,
> 
> I am wondering what you guys think about this. So on the long weekend I went on a motorcycle trip. Now my motorcycle has a small gas tank, around 12L so it is usually under $10 to fill as I don't run it totally empty. So I stopped in a small town to buy some gas and I filled up and it was something around $5.00. So I went in to pay and pulled out my visa and the lady got very angry at me, she started yelling and calling me inconsiderate for trying to pay with a visa and this is costing her money. In the end she said I had to buy $10.00 worth of gas to accept my visa. Well since I am not able to hold more that was just not possible.
> 
> Anyway I went and pulled a 20.00 out of an ATM and paid for it. Mostly due to her reaction I was thinking about this for a while and was pretty annoyed by it. I was thinking to my self, it did not say anywhere that there is a minimum purchase for visa, so am I really responsible for this as I am not informed.


I would have told her that all I had was my Visa and she could take it or leave it, and you're not paying double for gas. She could phone the police as there's nothing you are doing wrong, you are offering to pay for the gas. The police would not get involved as you were not trying to steal anything, so they would tell her to take you to small claims court - which she would not do. To start raising her voice or worse, yelling at you for trying to pay her is ridiculous. I would be hitting any review site I could and adding this, gas buddy is a good one


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Beaver101 said:


> ... in this case, you might meet the same scenario with the second merchant if you to continuously need to fill your tank for your "planned" road trip.
> 
> You don't need a wallet to carry cash - roll a $5, $10 or $20 bill and put it into your sock(s) (but then don't lose your shoes/socks) ... and if you run into the same scenario, use those bill(s) then. :biggrin:


Yeah I normally bring 20.00 cash with me but this was one of those times where I did not think before I went out. Naturally it is one of the few times where I do not bring the cash that this happens.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Addy said:


> I would have told her that all I had was my Visa and she could take it or leave it, and you're not paying double for gas. She could phone the police as there's nothing you are doing wrong, you are offering to pay for the gas. The police would not get involved as you were not trying to steal anything, so they would tell her to take you to small claims court - which she would not do. To start raising her voice or worse, yelling at you for trying to pay her is ridiculous. I would be hitting any review site I could and adding this, gas buddy is a good one


Well I doubt my review would be worth while, it was a town with one gas station. In the back of my mind I was thinking I should say,
"So as I understand the situation, I am ready to pay for my gas with a method of payment that is accepted, but you are unwilling to accept my payment"


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Fraser19 said:


> Well I doubt my review would be worth while, it was a town with one gas station. In the back of my mind I was thinking I should say,
> "So as I understand the situation, I am ready to pay for my gas with a method of payment that is accepted, but you are unwilling to accept my payment"


Yes, true I'm sure the owner doesn't rely heavily on social media  I can be a real ***** when told I need to pay a service fee for using a debit machine - You're much nicer than I, as I refuse to use the scam atm machines that charge you a fee.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I know some places have signs to that effect, I tend to carry cash just in case (the CC network has gone down before)

However I pay by CC all the time. Even Tims coffee goes on the credit card.

I am not a lawyer, but I play one on the internet.
The problem with not paying for the gas is you would be stealing, which would be a criminal offense.

The the owner is only required to accept legal tender (ie cash).
Posting a VISA/Mastercard sign could suggest you had an implied contract that those other payment methods would be acceptable. 
At worst they've broken that contract, and you could sue (in civil court) for losses/damage of that breach, the cost to go to an ATM, or the overpayment etc.

The police would act on and enforce the criminal offense (your theft), and can't do anything about your civil counter claim.

It's a losing situation for you.

Realistically threaten to complain to the CC company, and if they don't back down, pay more, then complain.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I am not a lawyer, but I play one on the internet.
> The problem with not paying for the gas is you would be stealing, which would be a criminal offense.


Wrong, I've worked in police services for many many years. If you offer to pay, and the owner refuses to accept the form of payment, it's a civil matter, not criminal. The police would show up, hear that and tell the owner to take you (or the person who didn't get cash out to pay owner) to small claims court, which of course is not worth their time.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Addy said:


> Wrong, I've worked in police services for many many years. If you offer to pay, and the owner refuses to accept the form of payment, it's a civil matter, not criminal. The police would show up, hear that and tell the owner to take you (or the person who didn't get cash out to pay owner) to small claims court, which of course is not worth their time.


So you're saying I can walk in, take something, and if the owner doesn't like my payment terms, I can still leave with the item I didn't even pay for?

In similar cases, like a car repair, the mechanic can simply hold your car until you pay the debt.


I wouldn't want to be playing this game in some area far from home, where the cop knows the gas station and doesn't know you.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Is the fee a flat rate or something? I always thought it was a percentage of the sale. Maybe not since I see these signs up fairly frequently at cheap restaurants and convenience stores.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> You might be surprised how much the merchant pays in fees. Enough to wipe out the profit on small purchases. I don't blame small businesses for not wanting to lose money this way but they should put up a sign.
> 
> As a rule, in small mom and pop businesses I pay with cash for this reason, unless the purchase is over $100. In chain stores and bigger businesses they don't seem to care.


Big stores will take your card on a small purchase..not sure how small it can be, but smaller merchants can't afford the transaction fee on a regular basis..however on rare occurrence, the merchant has to take the CC if no other form of payment is available, like cash.



> Transaction Fees
> Transaction fees are a flat fee that the processor charges you per transaction processed. These vary by company, with a range of 5 cents to 50 cents being common. Many companies will offer lower discount fees in exchange for higher transaction fees. If you process high individual transaction amounts, it may make sense to accept the higher transaction fees in exchange for a lower discount rate.


However the retail mark up on a litre of gas is very small and 12L is probably a small profit to be eaten up by the transaction fee to the merchant say proft is 5 cents..thats 60 cents profit on 12 litres, and if the transaction fee is 50c for that transaction, the gas bar attendant has only made about 10c on the sale. 

Probably it's more than 5c per liter, 10c maybe?..but inspite of the high prices on gas these days, the gas bars
don't make that much on a small sale, the oil companies and taxes account for pretty much 90% of the price.

Of course, in the OP case, the attendant HAD to emphasize this to motorcyclist. 

Next time,maybe buy a soft drink?, and candy bar or some snacks?

BTW..I have had this SAME SCENARIO come up when I was motorcycling, and had to stop at a gas bar to to top up my tank..small sale..buy some other stuff from them, they ARE in business to make money.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> So you're saying I can walk in, take something, and if the owner doesn't like my payment terms, I can still leave with the item I didn't even pay for?


But it's gas. You can't give it back. It is more like a restaurant where you've already eaten the food than a store where you buy an item.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> So you're saying I can walk in, take something, and if the owner doesn't like my payment terms, I can still leave with the item I didn't even pay for?
> 
> In similar cases, like a car repair, the mechanic can simply hold your car until you pay the debt.
> 
> ...



Clearly there is a difference between the liquid gas I put in my bike vs lets say an Xbox. One can be given back, the other cannot. Also I seem to remember something in Alberta that if a mechanics shop exceeds the estimate by 5 or 10% they cannot continue working on it without notifying you first, so that you can decide to take your car somewhere else. But that is off topic.

One of the things that kept me friendly was that, there is a high likelihood I will have to buy gas there again in the future, so I did figure it was best to not dig my heels in at this time. But if I did I would be extremely surprised if the police gave me a problem about it. I would be equally surprised if the employee was willing to even call the police.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

You did the nice thing. That's a small tank. Mine holds 18L. I'm usually filling with 13-14 liters. 

I can understand a small business not wanting to take a chunk out of the small profit on gas to go to a credit card fee. However it is their responsibility to set a policy and advise customers of it. Regardless of whether they have a policy or not they should be courteous and thankful for your business, and not whine or be rude to you as they did. 

Most all smaller retailers do have a stated minimum charge.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

One thing I just thought of, since this was an Esso station, do you think it would be effective to write a letter of complaint to Esso/imperial oil?

Naturally I assume that since she is running the store she is representing the Esso business and that type of conduct/customer service would not be well received by Esso.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Fraser19 said:


> Way I see it is a paid 8.50 for 5.00 in gas due to transaction fees, which is what she didn't want so, why should I?


If there was no sign saying a minimum $ at the pump and the person was rude, I would most likely be very rude back. If there was a sign, I'd have no problem with that and I always carry some cash when out of town, at least $20. Also, if you're filling up for such small amounts find gas stations, when possible, that you pay at the pump and problem solved.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Fraser19 said:


> One thing I just thought of, since this was an Esso station, do you think it would be effective to write a letter of complaint to Esso/imperial oil?
> 
> Naturally I assume that since she is running the store she is representing the Esso business and that type of conduct/customer service would not be well received by Esso.


Pretty much all the major oil company gas bars are* leased to the operator*. 

They have to make money off other things besides gas because the margin of profit is small on gas alone per litre,
and that's why you see all these KIOSKs crop up with the gas bars. 

Years ago...they used to do car repairs as well..but the cost of keeping a mechanic or two is too expensive in today's
economy, so a lot have closed down in the last couple of years.

There used to be several in my area of west end Ottawa, now there is only an Esso and a Petrocan...and a CTC gas bar..that's all that's left and the CTC just closed their oil change drive in center this year...business seems to be shifting to other places, or it's just not economical to operate them any more without a snack bar,

and a propane dispensary or other value added services to survive. 

Without these add-ons, the small volume gas bar would have a hard time surviving with business taxes, attendant salaries, electricity, internet fees and banking fees along with charge card transaction fees. 

http://globalnews.ca/news/1026235/price-of-gas-tax-in-ontario/


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## Butters (Apr 20, 2012)

If they say they take visa, then they take it.
It's in the visa agreement they can't charge an extra fee.

I think you just found a way to get 5$ of free gas next time


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> So you're saying I can walk in, take something, and if the owner doesn't like my payment terms, I can still leave with the item I didn't even pay for?
> 
> In similar cases, like a car repair, the mechanic can simply hold your car until you pay the debt.
> 
> ...


Are you asking for clarification on something I said, or are you trying to make fun of my reply to you? I was telling you that in this persons case, it became a civil matter when the owner refused to accept a form of payment that normally they would accept.

There is a lien act for vehicle repairs, which also becomes a civil matter, not a criminal matter. Hence why the mechanic can keep your car... not a police matter.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... next time, make sure you have the tank full before making the trip. Think of it this way - at least there was a gas station for you to fill up and you had the cash. :biggrin:


Yes Beav; he needs to be "thankfull" he has a tank full on his next trip.

But a motorcycle is designed for performance, and not some Toyota Prius that sips 80km to the litre. 

I know from my experience having motorcycles from 650cc to 1300cc..they like to suck back the gas, and the reserves are very small...so you need to top up every so many kilo meters travelled, estimated from its fuel consumption as most don't come with a gas guage..unless you install it yourself. 

If you gear down on the twisty roads to get that performance-thrill seeking that every guy desires..
"hanging off" the seat, while counter steering and leaning over on the curves at breakneck speeds,
in some lower gear at high RPM.engine screamin' in protest, but you gotta keep that rubber on the
road..otherwise..it could be "good night" for you..
....well you see my point...there ain't such a thing as fuel conservation on these babies..
.but....ya gotta look good and feel great on them!

*The favourite expression with the HOG RIDERS is: If ya GOTTA ask..then you wouldn't understand." *

I wrote a prose a few years back in 1997..based on the song by Norman Greenbaum.."Spirit in the Sky" after my divorce and experiencing true freedom again:

*goes like this:*

I have been reborn 
On the wings of this mighty steed,
on this open highway, without the bonds of civilization to distract or confine me

With the wind in my face, and the beauty of nature that surrounds me
Who am I?... to question why I am here, or the purpose of my life.

*Suddenly I am transformed into a fearless Indian Chief,* 
(btw years ago there was a brand of motorcycle called an Indian Chief)

*Riding a dark horse with fiery exhausts for it's nostrils*. 
(Amanda Marshall's song: "my money's ridin' on this dark horse, baby,
My heart is sayin' it's the lucky one}

Lightning and thunder screams from it's machine soul, 
It has come to life, it obey's my every movement,
It senses my moods.

There is a brief transformation of the souls,
Suddenly, the man... and the machine of the man,
become inseparable and indistinguishable..
I AM the machine...and IT is Me!

The pulsations of my dark horse metal soul,
meld with my heartbeat,
The constant mesh of it's gears emanates,
allow us to reach synchronicity.

Leaving the mortal world behind us, we are compelled
to the realm of the mystic, Our Journey has begun.

For the moment, we escape this world on spiritual wings of silver
Symbolized by the majestic beauty and speed of the eagle.
We have left our earthly bonds behind,
Our momentum bears us aloft into the sky....

I am as free as the Spirit in the Sky....
..."and when I die, I want to go up to the Spirit in the Sky " (Norman Greenbaum)


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Yes Beav; he needs to be "thankfull" he has a tank full on his next trip.
> 
> *The favourite expression with the HOG RIDERS is: If ya GOTTA ask..then you wouldn't understand." *
> 
> I wrote a prose a few years back in 1997..based on the song by Norman Greenbaum.."Spirit in the Sky" after my divorce and experiencing true freedom again:


 ... either that or he's going to be pushing his hoggy on empty and imagine no station in sight ... great exercise for the biceps though ...:biggrin:

Nope, I don't understand and won't ask the "wild-guys". My older sibling drives a Kawasaki and I think he's nuts ... I tell him you can fly that thing to the moon. :eek2:

Btw; beautiful prose.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... either that or he's going to be pushing his hoggy on empty and imagine no station in sight ... great exercise for the biceps though ...:biggrin:
> 
> Nope, *I don't understand and won't ask the "wild-guys*". My older sibling drives a Kawasaki and I think he's nuts ... I tell him you can fly that thing to the moon. :eek2:
> 
> Btw; beautiful prose.


It is really a guy thing Beav. Some of us DO love to live dangerously. :biggrin:

I just like having all that horsepower throbbing between my thighs! Call it an extension of our male anatomy
or some of us seeking out excitement and sometimes danger...especially if you overcompensate, underestimate and don't take in all the factors to keep the rubber on the road and you out of harms way.

I know personally from experience as I crashed a VMAX 1200CC V4 what they would call a "MUSCLE" bike on a fairly large curve about 15km from my house.

I still don't know what happened there..*I THOUGHT I had everything under control.*.but "she" got a way on me..it was a case of power band vs countersteering and leaning into the curve to get IT to obey my physical commands, realizing it wasn't working and grabbing hitting the brakes..in a panic move..a bad move!

A lot of riders get into trouble in that area..power to weight ratio, road conditions (especially wet leaves,sand on the road , loose gravel or other obstacles such as deer and small animals/dogs.

In a car (we call a cage) you have the protection of a seat belt, antilock brakes and a fair expanse of metal around you to take the impact...on a motorcycle at speed where gyroscopic precession plays an important part in the steering and handling of a motorcycle...it's a LOT more personal..as I found out.

Even though my big V4 "Hog" did not heed my commands and crossed the double line heading for the opposite ditch (I was in 5th gear and rolling on the throttle while leaning and counter steering hard) it just didn't work for me in this case. I had to bail off on the shoulder and let the heavy bike slide down the embankment on it's side, smashing some signal lights and scratching denting the mufflers on one side but otherwise still drive-able home. 
I discovered later that I should have geared down to 3rd or fourth gear, picked my Apex into the curve and
then rolled on the throttle to keep the suspension set. 

By the grace of my Guardian Angel looking after me, I survived..no vehicle was coming around the curve at that instance that my bike decided to cross the double line. I survived that one without a scratch, just scratched up leathers/blue jeans, boots and gloves. After I determined the bike's steering and brakes were not compromised, I walked it out of the ditch under it's own power picked up broken pieces (signal light and mirror) and headed home, although very subdued and humble at this point, that this machine had defeated me in a moment of bravado.

Took me a few days to pick up some new pieces for it, had to repair it myself, the pieces cost well over $1000 out of pocket back in 1995, and I never reported the accident to the cops or the insurance company,(my premiums were very high on this bike even before my accident) since it was my fault..I was taking a risk at high speed to "enjoy" the feeling of leaning over into the curve...and experiencing RAW POWER!!

I did learn how to handle that big bike later on in the year on curves...and we got to man-machine interface = "Yes, I know what you want to do" . . But I decided due to its heavy weight, expensive gas consumption (Yamaha VMAX 140hp engine with 4 carburettors, to trade it in on an 1100cc Vtwin with less fuel and lower top speeds...no more taking curves at 130kph for me, although I still took most curves at 100 to 120kph.

What is the fun of being on a motorcycle when you have to slow down on the curves anyway?..it's a "gunho" and bravado attitude... that you have "everything under control", that gets you through the challenging actions.

I wrote that bit of prose (it's engraved on a plaque on my wall) on the new V2 1100 bike..we had a lot of good experiences together. 


I must tell you Beav, (one of these days), about my "Arizona Grand Canyon" experience in March 1995 on a rented Harley Sportster in a snow storm on a mountain road (no guard rails) and volcanic cinders they use for traction there...good for vehicles I suppose, but these are ball bearings to motorcycle tires...and I survived that near death experience as well. :biggrin:


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Fraser,

This happened to me once. I was trying to purchase ~$6 worth of food from a convenience store. Just some milk and things. I was at the cottage so it was the closest place to get something if you needed it without driving to a real grocery store.

The guy told me he couldn't accept VISA unless I bought at least $10 worth of items.

Now, I'm usually a bit more blunt and rough around the edges. I told him if he wanted the sale and wanted me as a returning customer, he would accept the visa, otherwise I'd be going somewhere else. I told him it wasn't my problem and that his side of the business is to make sure that he makes money. He is already charging a fortune by being a convenience store and if you accept Visa, then it should already be baked into your resale prices.

Anyway - He took the visa for $6.

Maybe I'm just a dick, but I would have told the lady "The gas is in my tank. I can pay $5 with Visa, or I can drive away. Which do you prefer?"
I mean, she's not going to make you siphon it out. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Maybe I'm just a dick, but I would have told the lady "The gas is in my tank. I can pay $5 with Visa, or I can drive away. Which do you prefer?"
> I mean, she's not going to make you siphon it out. :biggrin:


If you try and drive away without paying for it (one way or another) they will get your description, plate number and they
COULD call the cops charging you with theft. If that happened wouldn't that be embarrassing for just $5. 
A lot of gas bars now have cameras that record your plate number and and even motorcycles have rear plate numbers
and that record is kept for a while until you pay for your gas. Maybe some independent "Ma&Pa" convenience store with one
pump won't have the evidence, but most gas bars these days do have hidden cameras, because of theft.

..just sayin'


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> If you try and drive away without paying for it (one way or another) they will get your description, plate number and they
> COULD call the cops charging you with theft. If that happened wouldn't that be embarrassing for just $5.
> A lot of gas bars now have cameras that record your plate number and and even motorcycles have rear plate numbers
> and that record is kept for a while until you pay for your gas. Maybe some independent "Ma&Pa" convenience store with one
> ...


 ... +1 ... even they don't have a camera in these smaller stores, would it be worth the argument or confrontation? My local 7-11 (large chain) would only accept credit cards for a metropass ($100+) if you buy at least $5 worth of other stuff from them so a couple of donuts and/or coffee does the trick. And they don't post this minimum or no credit cards on transit tickets + lottery ticketes + who knows what else "rule". And I don't use debit.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> It is really a guy thing Beav. *Some of us DO love to live dangerously*. :biggrin: ...
> 
> I must tell you Beav, (one of these days), about my "Arizona Grand Canyon" experience in March 1995 on a rented Harley Sportster in a snow storm on a mountain road (no guard rails) and volcanic cinders they use for traction there...good for vehicles I suppose, but these are ball bearings to motorcycle tires*...and I survived that near death experience as well*. :biggrin:


 ... are you planning to come back as a feline in the after-life? :biggrin:

Btw: why don't you open a Motorcycle thread and share your experiences with the younger macho-(or gung-ho or :cool2 types They might learn a thing or 2?


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

carverman said:


> If you try and drive away without paying for it (one way or another) they will get your description, plate number and they
> COULD call the cops charging you with theft. If that happened wouldn't that be embarrassing for just $5.
> 
> ..just sayin'


They could. I highly doubt this would be the case. I would assume it would also be on camera that the said person walked in with full intentions on paying. At $5, I think the cop would have a laugh.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

'They won't siphon it out'...'You can't give it back'

Umm yes they can, and you can. Many years ago, on a family trip to the US, the Texaco station said they wouldn't take the Texaco card because we were from out of the country. Dad gave them a choice. Take the card, or take the gas back. They siphoned it out.


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## Fraser19 (Aug 23, 2013)

Retired Peasant said:


> 'They won't siphon it out'...'You can't give it back'
> 
> Umm yes they can, and you can. Many years ago, on a family trip to the US, the Texaco station said they wouldn't take the Texaco card because we were from out of the country. Dad gave them a choice. Take the card, or take the gas back. They siphoned it out.


I would suspect that this would be an uncommon occurrence. It would be easy to make that a challenge too, I demand you syphon out the exact amount of gas I put in.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Retired Peasant said:


> 'They won't siphon it out'...'You can't give it back'
> 
> Umm yes they can, and you can. Many years ago, on a family trip to the US, the Texaco station said they wouldn't take the Texaco card because we were from out of the country. Dad gave them a choice. Take the card, or take the gas back. They siphoned it out.


 ... that's interesting (but anything can happen in the US of A) but were they able to siphon out "exactly" the amount of gas you filled in? Or what happens if they siphon out more (your existing amount) than you filled in?


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

I charge as low as $1 items to the CC. Never been an issue. With paypass, it's way faster.
I have seen stores put minimum purchase amounts in for debit (because it's a fixed fee), but never any for credit (which I thought was a percentage fee).

I doubt any branded gas station nowadays would siphon the gas out. They can't guarantee the quality of the fuel and the attendants may not be properly trained. Most branded stations are busy enough with the clerks selling coffee, food, ciggies and lottery tickets that they wouldn't have time to leave their post and siphon the fuel out.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... are you planning to come back as a feline in the after-life? :biggrin:


Yes as a cat...I hear that some have 9 lives..and if that is the case, I'm down to my last one..can't take any more chances motorcycling these days...even if I wasn't disabled..too many cars on the road now.

Last night a 24 year old guy got killed on a motorcycle at 9:45pm close to me in Barrhaven. Seems like once or
twice a month during the peak riding season, you hear of guys crashing and sometimes getting killed on the
nightly local TV news.

Night time is a very dangerous time to be out..because drivers are NOT looking for motorcycles
during the night..that is if they even look at all...texting these days while driving or being distracted..
almost got run over this morning with my scooter. 

I think I will need to install "loud pipes" ala Harley style. I have been told that "loud pipes save lives"...but that may be another urban legend too. :biggrin:



> Btw: why don't you open a Motorcycle thread and share your experiences with the younger macho-(or gung-ho or :cool2 types They might learn a thing or 2?


I've shared my experiences on other motorcycle forums (lots of them around) but it seems that at some point, I get into arguments as well on technical specs and riding expertise...happened on the jazz guitar forum as well, so I left..no point having someone spoil my day..it is entertainment after all..and when it becomes "personal", I bail out.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> I've shared my experiences on other motorcycle forums (lots of them around) but it seems that at some point, I get into arguments as well on technical specs and riding expertise...happened on the jazz guitar forum as well, so I left..no point having someone spoil my day..it is entertainment after all..and when it becomes "personal", I bail out.


I've seen this happen a fair bit, teaching others is best left to those accredited to do so. Even among teachers arguments occur so when you bring in a group of average biker people, well .. things can get ugly.


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## plasmasnake (Apr 17, 2014)

Couldn't she have just charged you an extra 50 cents or something, to pay with the credit card? A lot of convenience stores around here charge an extra 25 or 50 cents for credit card purchases under $5.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Fraser,
> 
> This happened to me once. I was trying to purchase ~$6 worth of food from a convenience store. Just some milk and things. I was at the cottage so it was the closest place to get something if you needed it without driving to a real grocery store.
> 
> ...


Sounds about right. I'm a dick along with you. You should have asked for the cash discount once you went to the ATM Fraser. Yesterday I went to McDonald's and got a 1 dollar pop (1.13 of course). Usually I would have put it on Visa but I had a bunch of pennies and nickels in the car so I took them in. The server said that 'we don't take pennies anymore' - I said 'yes you do'. Short conversation between him and the assistant manager cleared up that they do take them, they just don't give them out anymore. I wonder how many would have just said ok. Turned out I had exactly 13 pennies. Score!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> I've seen this happen a fair bit, teaching others is best left to those accredited to do so. Even among teachers arguments occur so when you bring in a group of average biker people, well .. things can get ugly.


Yes, it seems that way.
I took MSF trainng before I got on my first bike, and 1980 Yamaha XS650. Didn't have much trouble leaning
and counter steering or handling on gravel roads or grooved asphalt.
The big bridge crossing at Ogdensburg NY-Prescott ON, made me very nervous though because of the steel grates...bike steering was a bit squirrelly but I made it.

After one season of experience on the 650cc; (they told me in MSF training, that most riders get into an accident in the first year of riding)..but it didn't happen to me..
.so I graduated to MORE POWER....lots of power..I was power hungry I guess and got that used VMax.

I think it was a bad idea as these were torque monsters and you could burn a lot of rubber with that 1200cc V4.

I think I just got a bit cocky that morning, thinking it would be a piece of cake and underestimated my abilities having the bike only for about a week. Decided to take that curve in 5th gear at 120-130kph...way too fast. it didn't want to counter steer around the curve like I had anticipated and expected. 

What I should have done, is to pick my apex into that Dwyer Hill road curve early, and gear down one gear (4th) as I entered the curve, and rolled on the throttle so that the engine power was constant, and the suspension was loaded up correctly to go around the curve. 
As they told me..you have to look far ahead into the curve and pick a path for your wheels to go. 

However, in this case it was a bad apex picked too late and I was running out of road, coming close to the gravel shoulder and that would have been bad news as well. I guess I made a split second decision to chop the throttle, then panicked hitting the binders instead of doing threshold braking..but hindsight is 50-50 as they say.

At least I got out of that one with just my pride hurt a bit and a big dent in my wallet..otherwise.....


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

uptoolate said:


> Turned out I had exactly 13 pennies. Score!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

plasmasnake said:


> Couldn't she have just charged you an extra 50 cents or something, to pay with the credit card? A lot of convenience stores around here charge an extra 25 or 50 cents for credit card purchases under $5.


Merchant agreements including paypal stipulate that you may not add a surcharge for users who pay with credit cards. The sticker price must be the same no matter which format of payment the customer chooses.


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## plasmasnake (Apr 17, 2014)

the-royal-mail said:


> Merchant agreements including paypal stipulate that you may not add a surcharge for users who pay with credit cards. The sticker price must be the same no matter which format of payment the customer chooses.


Wow I didn't know that. Funny thing is, I remember a few years ago one of the local computer shops here (not sure if I should name them or not, after what you said!) used to offer a cash/debit discount of around 2-3% off the "regular" price on most of their items. They would literally have 2 separate prices on the sticker. I thought it was cool of them to pass on the savings to customers who chose not to pay with credit. Now I wonder if the reason why they stopped doing that is because they got caught or something? There's also another computer shop that would charge 2% extra for paying with credit card in the physical store, but not if you bought from their website - I haven't been there for a couple of years so I don't know if they still do that. I wondered why it would matter whether it was an in-store or online purchase... Seems like "harder to get caught" is a plausible reason.

It seems to me like that sort of agreement should be illegal. If everybody's paying the same price, then effectively people who pay with cash are subsidizing those who pay with credit. Hardly seems fair to not allow the merchant to pass on the savings, or the cost, whichever way you want to look at it.

Edit: Incidentally, I ordered a computer case (yeah, I buy a lot of computer stuff!) from a Chinese company a few months ago, and when they sent me the invoice it included a 5% charge for paying with Paypal. But that was a direct transfer as opposed to something like Paypal checkout, so maybe the agreement doesn't apply to that - or maybe it does but some vendors aren't worried about violating it.

Edit #2: And actually, the extra 25/50 cent charge thing is also common here for bus tickets. Convenience stores literally just make 1% profit off of bus tickets - they basically carry them with the hope that the customer will also buy something else while they're in the store. So if you just go in and buy bus tickets and nothing else, and want to pay with credit card, they'll put a surcharge on it.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

^ Interesting comments. I should have probably been a bit more verbose in my reply to you. Your comments about a cash discount are on point and actually represent what retailers ARE allowed to do. They are allowed to post a price of $5.50 with a cash discount of 50 cents (for example) and the guy with credit card or other plastic pays $5.50. What the one computer store did is allowed, but not the other one. That said, it seems to be very common for those computer stores to add CC surcharges like that due to their competitive nature and really tight margins. I don't think they can get away with that for too long. Cash discounts are of course always allowed. What they cannot do is advertise a price of $5 and then add a surcharge for those who use a CC.

As for the paypal thing, I have never heard of anyone doing that before. The paypal agreement specifically states that you may not add a surcharge to customers, specifically for the use of paypal. You may want to report that vendor to paypal as the agreement certainly applies to direct transfers.

With the bus tickets, as with the computer stores, they operate on very low margins but I still don't think they are supposed to be doing that. If CC company found out there could be consequences for the vendor.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> ^
> 
> As for the paypal thing, I have never heard of anyone doing that before. The paypal agreement specifically states that you may not add a surcharge to customers, specifically for the use of paypal. You may want to report that vendor to paypal as the agreement certainly applies to direct transfers.


Paypal charges vendors 2.9% + 0.30c PER TRANSACTION. On a $5.00 charge that would be 0.14 + 0.30 = 44c
So it is a significant charge to the vendor on a very small transaction of $5-10 . if it was a $10 charge the vendor would
be charged $29c + 30c = 0.59c.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

In 2012, there was a successful class action suit against Visa that gave the retailers the right to charge extra for taking the Visa cards in the US. There is a current case here in BC that deals with the higher charges for Infinite cards. I know this is off topic, but I would offer 50 cents to be added to the charge for her inconvenience. And thank her for being flexible.

(I find with all the chips and mag stripe swipes and RFID sensing, that I have to be flexible with retailers because some work and others don't.)


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