# Retiring Abroad



## Longtimeago

Since retiring 28 years ago (no, I'm not that old and yes, I retired that early), I have lived not only in the country I grew up in, Canada, but also in several other countries as well. So I believe I have a fairly broad range of experience of the pros and cons of retiring abroad to draw from.

Based on that experience, I would say there are some common threads that people who try retiring abroad run into. For those contemplating it, it may be of some use to know about some of them. Bear in mind that these are my own conclusions. It is very hard to try and find any kind of statistical evidence on most of this subject.

First, when someone sells up and moves to country X, it is a mistake to buy a home right away. It is always best to rent to begin with. This is for several reasons. You do not know if you will in fact take to the place or not. My experience is that more don't than do. So they end up moving back 'home' and selling. I've never seen anyone make money when they sell, they invariably lose money. Renting avoids a bigger lose than buying will.

When you first move to country X, you may pick a place to live that after a time period you decide is the wrong spot. Different from deciding the country is wrong, it may just be the wrong neighbourhood in a given town. I had that happen to me once. Since I was renting, I just gave a month's notice and moved across town. You can't do that if you buy.

Many people for some unknown reason seem to leave their common sense behind when moving to country X. They buy a house/apartment without doing enough research and can end up in situations where ownership of the property is unclear or a highway gets built in their front yard a year after they buy, etc. etc. The simple fact is that until you know a place well enough to avoid such things, you shouldn't be buying anything. Much of the reason for why people get into trouble in this way is because more often than not, they are buying in a place that is popular with foreigners (that's you), not locals. So whether it is a Canadian retiree buying in a popular part of Costa Rica that is popular with Canadian retirees or a Brit buying in Spain, it's the same thing.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/.../Expat-nightmare-turns-from-bad-to-worse.html Wouldn't you think that common sense should tell you that buying in a location that only appeals to a limited market segment (foreigners) is maybe not such a good idea? But in fact, most who do this don't even think about that. As I said, they leave common sense behind.

Another financial issue is currency exchange. If you have a retirement income (pensions, etc) that is derived in your home country, you need to give thought to the impact that currency exchange can have on you. Again, some people seem to leave their common sense behind them on this one. Let's suppose someone has an income of $50k CDN, derived in Canada. Let's leave where you will pay income tax out of this for now as it is another topic. So you have $50k net income to work with. 

When you first move to country X, that represents X amount of the local currency. For simplicity lets say 100k of X currency. How much should you plan to live on? Many plan to live on the 100k. When they worked it out before leaving home, that's how they worked it out. But what if the exchange rate goes against you? Even stable currencies such as the CAD and GBP have varied as much as 25% over the span of only a few years. So what happens when your $50k CAD turns into only 75k X currency locally? Oops. Currency exchange fluctuations mean that you have to build in a 'cushion' to cover such swings. I have seen many people get caught by this. The cushion has to be there and it has to be a significant percentage of your total income. That can make a country that seemed affordable, unaffordable quite quickly.

Taxes are the other major financial issue when moving abroad. Where do you pay them, how much and for what? I'm not really going to go into this one since it is a very complicated subject. A few basic points are that Canada Revenue is very reluctant to allow you to become 'non-resident for tax purposes' in Canada if you have income derived in Canada or own any property in Canada. Not all countries have tax agreements with Canada and so if you pick the wrong country, you could find yourself having to pay taxes in both countries. Some people manage to move their tax obligations to another country and get all excited because it is a lower tax rate than they would pay in Canada or even has no income tax at all! Heaven huh? Well not necessarily when you discover that yes, you pay less taxes but you perhaps have no power in your house 25% of the time for example. Getting caught up in finding a place with lower taxes can blind some people to what it means on the other side of the equation, that is what you get for the taxes you pay.

So that's it for now. I am not trying to discourage anyone from retiring abroad, many do so very successfully, I just want to point out a few things people contemplating it should be aware of up front.


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## AltaRed

^All good stuff. To add....

It is not only about ongoing income taxes when becoming a non-resident. There is the deemed (or actual) disposition of all non-reg investments at FMV. People who see the $$$ saving of low tax jurisdictions forget about 'deemed disposition' of non-reg assets. There is also the issue of health care that must be researched thoroughly. Also the issue of disconnects with family and friends. If family is important, how do they visit you, and how often, and what is that cost? Are flight options affordable and relatively easy? Example: Imagine a married son with a family living in Western Canada trying to get to a location on the coast 200km from Liberia airport in Costa Rica.

Websites like International Living are helpful on many subjects in many popular ex-pat locations but they can also be biased by ex-pats cheerleading their locations.

Can't agree more strongly about renting before buying. Chances may be less than 50% of a 'Retire Abroad' scenario being successful. Also, RE deals often need to be structured differently, e.g. simply buying/selling the shares in a private Corp that actually owns the RE one is interested in.


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## james4beach

I'll add: be careful about making the USA your second home. The big problems are the enormous health care costs in the US and difficulty of maintaining the insurance, and the tax problems caused by spending too long in the US (substantial presence test / US Person). This is true even though US and Canada have a tax treaty; my experience maintaining residences in both US and Canada for the last few years is that it's a lot of trouble, mainly due to the laws on the US side.

It's really too bad, because the US is next door and is a nice country to spend winters in. Being a snow bird in the US is still feasible, but you must be very careful to not spend too much time in the US.

Another issue I'll raise is property rights and a country's stability. Our family has some property in a distant country that has, in recent years, started to become very unstable. My grandparent owned a nice oceanfront apartment but had issues such as local gangsters trying to assume ownership of the property using bribes and corrupt connections in government.

There is a lot of corruption in many 3rd world countries, weak rule of law, and weak property rights. It may be a really bad idea to purchase any properties in those kinds of places (as our family has found out the hard way). Visiting and renting something is still a great idea, though.


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## kcowan

We know several people who have come to PV MX and expect a condo purchase to be the same as Canada. They willingly put down a deposit of $100k and embrace a payment scheme that is calendar based, not project based.

In two cases, the developer went bankrupt because he was counting on presales to finance the development because local financing was unavailable. In another case, the developer was afoul of the city bylaws and lacked the connections to bribe his way out of it. So the building shell sits incomplete after four years. In a third example, a reputable USian developer completed his second building and then stiffed his contractors so he could start the third building. They shut him down and also place liens on all the completed units in the second building, making them impossible to sell. In a fourth case, the building was complete and occupied for three years when natives came forward with claims on the land and the owners had to cough up extra to cover. In a fifth case, the developer added charges for the building space where the exchangers were located, and repriced the garage and storage spaces for everyone who wanted them. It turns out the sales agreement just mentioned the right to those spaces without the price. All in Spanish, of course.

We have owned for 10 years and have no problems because it was a resale. Those pre-construction deals can be costly! If I were to do it again, I would negotiate a 12-month lease so I could change location as we were aging. I would avoid any building that offered less than 90 day rentals.


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## Mukhang pera

I tend to think that renting at first makes sense even when moving to a another place in Canada, even 100 miles away, unless you have spent time there and know the lay of the land. I have lived a few places in Canada and in one city, that was new to me, I rented a place that I thought would be great. The place looked nice, but no shortage of crime, craziness, etc. Six weeks later I moved to the other side of town, leaving behind my pissed-off landlord. Having left after a break-in, the local cops gave some sound advice: When moving to a new city, ask the local cops about places to avoid.

In some places I have lived, only citizens may own land, and becoming a citizen is not easy. So that tends to save some ex-pats from themselves. Some of those places allow foreigners to own condos which, as Keith points out, can be a pitfall in itself.

Healthcare can be an issue just about anywhere, not just the US, which enjoys a reputation for sky-high healthcare costs. Anywhere - even third world countries about which one often reads things like "Live like a king in [xland] for $1,000 a month." Without health insurance, which can cost a lot, particularly as one gets older, even the bills in those cheap places can grow alarmingly. So be prepared.

One of the best pieces of advice about becoming an expat is to have an exit strategy. If the new life abroad fails to meet expectations, make sure you are not "marooned" in your new home. Best not to make the move in the first place unless you have the means to unwind the whole process and not get beaten up in the process. Some move abroad, end up not liking it, but they cannot really afford to come home. They may have bought houses they can only sell at a loss, they may no longer have the ability to earn money back home, too many ties severed, the local real estate market may have left them behind, etc. Kinda' like that basic principle every CA student learns: "Expect all losses; anticipate no gains." If you can do that and still see your way out, you won't get clobbered.

While not a financial issue, my own view of taking up residence for any length of time in a foreign land, unless it happens to be predominantly English-speaking, is the requirement to learn the local language. Otherwise you'll be miserable when all those around you are happily conversing in their native tongue and you are clueless, perhaps smiling like an idiot and pretending to be comfortable. Moreover, failing to do so leaves you open to contempt, even if not expressed. How many times do we hear it said in Canada words to the effect: "Oh yeah, that guy has lived here 20 years and has not even bothered to learn English." It happens here and it happens abroad as well. Even if it's a northern European country, such as where my family came from, where everyone learns English in school and will switch to English as required, it is not nearly so pleasant to live there if you can not flow in the main stream. You will never be a part of the place.

I have been to Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries, but I find I soon tire of hearing only Spanish all day and not fitting in. I could not live there. However, if i really thought it was a great place to live and was motivated to go, i'd bloody well learn Spanish. Before moving to my wife's country, I took lessons in Vancouver; I had her and books and CDs to teach me and I accomplished it, with some considerable sense of satisfaction.


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## m3s

I follow these discussions to gleam what I can from those who've done it or tried. It's a central topic on subreddits like r/financialindependence r/leanfire r/digitalnomads

I keep it in my back pocket as an emergency exit while I continue to build up slowly and raise my safety net below. I think I would start with winters abroad doing hobbies that would likely give me a work or student visa up to 6 months at a time, flying in/out during the off seasons. I've already built connections on vacations that could help with this for years. I wouldn't rely on these to supplement my expenses but rather for the sense of accomplishment, community, social aspects that seem to be a downfall for many expats in the long term. The winter season also happens to be far more enjoyable in many locations abroad. As far as language I'm not too concerned after living in non-English countries I've learned to read body language and I enjoy the out from social expectation to pretend I enjoy small talk with randoms. I prefer to keep a small network of people with similar philosophy/passions. Although on the flip side speaking french in Africa is very enriching but regardless I would never be accepted as a "local"

I'm thinking that spending 6 months of the warmer seasons in Canada would mean you can continue to count years towards OAS and I maintain Canadian citizenship, access to medical care, registered investments etc. There are many seasonal hobbies and work opportunities for someone who is flexible and mobile. My father is retired on a pension but still works summers at a yacht club and other odd jobs probably for similar reasons. He also gets EI now in the winter because of that which is really weird considering he is retired and worked non-stop since college with the same company. He's showing more interest to travel in the winter now. I already use his address to maintain Canadian residency ties while working outside Canada. We're planning to build an off-grid equipped mobile living space potentially for him to snowbird travel south in and that I could use in summers in Canada. I find commercial RVs are overpriced and very poor quality for what you pay and don't take advantage of new technology.

The internet has made it possible for young people known as digital nomads to work from anywhere. The main barrier nowadays is obsolete visa entry requirements, especially for overland travelers


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## Eder

Health care is pretty cheap almost everywhere except the USA...(although I went to see a doc in Vegas and was charged only $40/visit + meds). Alberta Health Care will reimburse for most out of country necessary doctor visits/procedures up to the dollar limit they allow in Alberta.

Boats & rv's are perfect to use for would be expats...if you made a mistake in the area you choose its simple to pack up & move on...most of us like the moving on part the most.


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## Mukhang pera

Eder said:


> Health care is pretty cheap almost everywhere except the USA...(although I went to see a doc in Vegas and was charged only $40/visit + meds). Alberta Health Care will reimburse for most out of country necessary doctor visits/procedures up to the dollar limit they allow in Alberta.
> 
> Boats & rv's are perfect to use for would be expats...if you made a mistake in the area you choose its simple to pack up & move on...most of us like the moving on part the most.


True about health care costs, but "pretty cheap" is relative. I have come across stories about people paying amounts in the range of USD25,000 for heart surgery in SE Asia. True, that is a pittance by Canadian standards (ands almost free by US standards), but it is more than most would pay for the same in Canada. 

While Alberta might pay for the health care of expats, BC will not. If you are out of province for more than 6 months, you are cut off entirely.


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## Retiredguy

Mukhang pera said:


> True about health care costs, but "pretty cheap" is relative. I have come across stories about people paying amounts in the range of USD25,000 for heart surgery in SE Asia. True, that is a pittance by Canadian standards (ands almost free by US standards), but it is more than most would pay for the same in Canada.
> 
> While Alberta might pay for the health care of expats, BC will not. If you are out of province for more than 6 months, you are cut off entirely.


I believe it was changed to out of Province* 7 months* in BC. Changed about 5 years ago as a result of lobbying from the Canadian Snowbird Association.

… 7 Months if on Vacation


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## gibor365

> Since retiring 28 years ago (no, I'm not that old and yes, I retired that early), I have lived not only in the country I grew up in, Canada, but also in several other countries as well.


 Can you share in which countries did you live?

From some research I did, it's a lot of hassle to retire in another country (moving your tax home away from CRA, medical insurance, special visas etc), thus I'd prefer to live 6 months in Canada and 6 months abroad, keeping OHIP and OAS...


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## Eclectic12

Retiredguy said:


> I believe it was changed to out of Province* 7 months* in BC. Changed about 5 years ago as a result of lobbying from the Canadian Snowbird Association.


The BC web site says more than six months requires contacting Health Insurance BC where the residency page has a note saying for vacation purposes only, seven months works.https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...aging-your-msp-account/leaving-bc-temporarily

On one hand, seven months seems to be true but on the other hand, it seems to require a bit of extra work.


Cheers


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## Eder

Mukhang pera said:


> While Alberta might pay for the health care of expats, BC will not. If you are out of province for more than 6 months, you are cut off entirely.


We are cut off if out of province over 6 months which requires a 3 month Alberta presence before health care is reinstated. I didnt mean to imply expats are covered, but snowbirds can see a doctor in Mexico and submit the bill to Alberta Health Care for reimbursement providing the person has current coverage. Most people think they need "travel insurance" for this.

As usual there is a multi level cost system in Mexico & Polynesia...those seeking care with insurance and those without.


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## kcowan

Duplicate


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## kcowan

Retiredguy said:


> I believe it was changed to out of Province* 7 months* in BC. Changed about 5 years ago as a result of lobbying from the Canadian Snowbird Association.


Yes 7 if you are retired and 6 if not.


Eclectic12 said:


> The BC web site says more than six months requires contacting Health Insurance BC where the residency page has a note saying for vacation purposes only, seven months works.https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...aging-your-msp-account/leaving-bc-temporarily
> 
> On one hand, seven months seems to be true but on the other hand, it seems to require a bit of extra work.


When the change happened in BC, it was April and we were in Mexico and our travel insurance was due to expire in April. We contacted them with a copy of the announcement, and they extended the insurance by a month. It is also 7 months in Ontario. So there was no hassle if you had travel insurance. They will not extend the period beyond what is legally allowed by the provincial plan.


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## Longtimeago

AltaRed said:


> ^
> Websites like International Living are helpful on many subjects in many popular ex-pat locations but they can also be biased by ex-pats cheerleading their locations.
> 
> Can't agree more strongly about renting before buying. Chances may be less than 50% of a 'Retire Abroad' scenario being successful. Also, RE deals often need to be structured differently, e.g. simply buying/selling the shares in a private Corp that actually owns the RE one is interested in.


I have indeed seen 'cheerleading' on expat forums AltaRed. Some more blatant than others. It makes complete sense to take some comments with 'a grain of salt'. There are also expat forums where they allow people to write as a member when in fact they are a property developer hoping to sell you a house in their development! It is not clear to the reader unless they pay careful attention, that the person telling them about the 'pura vida' of Costa Rica is a salesperson, not just someone who moved there.

Re the percentage of those who do stay long term in their new country, my personal experience is that far less than 50% do. The most common reason for them leaving and heading home is just that it is too 'different' in many ways and they just can't adapt to those differences. For example, a warm climate may appeal to many until they discover it also means near 100% humidity for 5 months of the year.


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> I'll add: be careful about making the USA your second home. The big problems are the enormous health care costs in the US and difficulty of maintaining the insurance, and the tax problems caused by spending too long in the US (substantial presence test / US Person). This is true even though US and Canada have a tax treaty; my experience maintaining residences in both US and Canada for the last few years is that it's a lot of trouble, mainly due to the laws on the US side.
> 
> It's really too bad, because the US is next door and is a nice country to spend winters in. Being a snow bird in the US is still feasible, but you must be very careful to not spend too much time in the US.
> 
> Another issue I'll raise is property rights and a country's stability. Our family has some property in a distant country that has, in recent years, started to become very unstable. My grandparent owned a nice oceanfront apartment but had issues such as local gangsters trying to assume ownership of the property using bribes and corrupt connections in government.
> 
> There is a lot of corruption in many 3rd world countries, weak rule of law, and weak property rights. It may be a really bad idea to purchase any properties in those kinds of places (as our family has found out the hard way). Visiting and renting something is still a great idea, though.


Well, the USA is not a country in which I will step foot while they continue to act in the way they are towards the rest of the world right now. That's all I will say on that subject.

I agree that it is important to know about the kind of corruption etc. that exists in many countries. I think that is another example of what I wrote about people leaving their common sense behind. There seems to be an *assumed* belief that many people take with them, that everywhere is the same as 'home' (Canada). It can come as a big surprise when someone discovers that is not the case. For example, in some S. American countries that are popular with retirees, leaving your new home to go back 'home' to Canada for a visit gets you a shock on your return when you find someone 'squatting' in your house. You left, they moved in and the *law* in that country allows them to do so. So if you want to leave, you have to hire a 'house sitter' to hold your property for you while you are gone and just pray they will move out when you return!

There is no such thing as doing too much research before choosing a country to retire to. When people look at countries with lower costs of living, they need to remember that there is are reasons why they have a lower cost of living. Usually it means because you can expect less in many regards. So lower property prices yes, but higher crime, poorer infrastructure, more corruption, etc. I believe that ideally, you want to pick one of the most expensive countries in terms of cost of living, that you can afford, not the opposite.


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## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> If I were to do it again, I would negotiate a 12-month lease so I could change location as we were aging. I would avoid any building that offered less than 90 day rentals.


Advice from someone who has made a move. I'm guessing you do not live year round in Puerto Vallarta kcowan, is that right? A winter resident? Nevertheless, experience as a resident.

You might want to expand on why you would suggest renting in order to be able to change location. Why would you want to change location and when you say change it, what are you really talking about? Move a few blocks farther back from the beach or what?

Re the not choosing an apartment building that allows less than 3 months rentals, another good point. For those who do not realize the significance of this, it has to do with vacation rentals. Many people choose to retire to a place popular not only for retirement but also for tourists. Puerto Vallarta, Mexico is one such place obviously. The problem arises when you buy a condo in a building where other owners are renting their units out by the day or week to tourists. You can easily find yourself living in a party place. What is acceptable to someone when they are a tourist themselves, is not necessarily what they want when they are living there for 6 months of the year.


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## Longtimeago

Mukhang pera said:


> I tend to think that renting at first makes sense even when moving to a another place in Canada, even 100 miles away, unless you have spent time there and know the lay of the land. I have lived a few places in Canada and in one city, that was new to me, I rented a place that I thought would be great. The place looked nice, but no shortage of crime, craziness, etc. Six weeks later I moved to the other side of town, leaving behind my pissed-off landlord. Having left after a break-in, the local cops gave some sound advice: When moving to a new city, ask the local cops about places to avoid.
> 
> In some places I have lived, only citizens may own land, and becoming a citizen is not easy. So that tends to save some ex-pats from themselves. Some of those places allow foreigners to own condos which, as Keith points out, can be a pitfall in itself.
> 
> Healthcare can be an issue just about anywhere, not just the US, which enjoys a reputation for sky-high healthcare costs. Anywhere - even third world countries about which one often reads things like "Live like a king in [xland] for $1,000 a month." Without health insurance, which can cost a lot, particularly as one gets older, even the bills in those cheap places can grow alarmingly. So be prepared.
> 
> One of the best pieces of advice about becoming an expat is to have an exit strategy. If the new life abroad fails to meet expectations, make sure you are not "marooned" in your new home. Best not to make the move in the first place unless you have the means to unwind the whole process and not get beaten up in the process. Some move abroad, end up not liking it, but they cannot really afford to come home. They may have bought houses they can only sell at a loss, they may no longer have the ability to earn money back home, too many ties severed, the local real estate market may have left them behind, etc. Kinda' like that basic principle every CA student learns: "Expect all losses; anticipate no gains." If you can do that and still see your way out, you won't get clobbered.
> 
> While not a financial issue, my own view of taking up residence for any length of time in a foreign land, unless it happens to be predominantly English-speaking, is the requirement to learn the local language. Otherwise you'll be miserable when all those around you are happily conversing in their native tongue and you are clueless, perhaps smiling like an idiot and pretending to be comfortable. Moreover, failing to do so leaves you open to contempt, even if not expressed. How many times do we hear it said in Canada words to the effect: "Oh yeah, that guy has lived here 20 years and has not even bothered to learn English." It happens here and it happens abroad as well. Even if it's a northern European country, such as where my family came from, where everyone learns English in school and will switch to English as required, it is not nearly so pleasant to live there if you can not flow in the main stream. You will never be a part of the place.
> 
> I have been to Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries, but I find I soon tire of hearing only Spanish all day and not fitting in. I could not live there. However, if i really thought it was a great place to live and was motivated to go, i'd bloody well learn Spanish. Before moving to my wife's country, I took lessons in Vancouver; I had her and books and CDs to teach me and I accomplished it, with some considerable sense of satisfaction.


The difference with moving in Canada is that you know a lot to begin with and have far less chance of getting something wrong. Not that you can't of course.

Healthcare can be expensive as you say and it can also be of inferior quality. Again, research before the move is what matters. Some people make a move already knowing that for anything really serious, they are going to need to fly home to get quality care and have insurance that will cover them for that. It's a judgement call.

It is indeed good advice to have an 'exit strategy'. Particularly since such a high percentage do end up leaving after a year or two. As the saying goes, 'don't burn your bridges'.

Language is a major issue as you say and one of the common reasons for people not being able to adapt to the differences in a new country and ending up leaving. Becoming fluent in the local language is definitely the best answer. Some people do however cope quite well without doing so. It depends on the individual. There are also places where there are so many 'foreigners' congregated, that they find little need to learn the local language. I don't agree with such places, I believe you should try to integrate into your new home country but not everyone sees it that way and to be fair, I have to admit some of them are perfectly happy not learning a word of the local language.


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## Longtimeago

m3s said:


> I'm thinking that spending 6 months of the warmer seasons in Canada would mean you can continue to count years towards OAS and I maintain Canadian citizenship, access to medical care, registered investments etc.
> 
> The internet has made it possible for young people known as digital nomads to work from anywhere. The main barrier nowadays is obsolete visa entry requirements, especially for overland travelers


A few comments for you m3s. When you apply for OAS, you are asked to list any absences from Canada of more than 6 months. So yes, you can be absent for up to 6 months every year and still count that year as 'resident in Canada' for the 40 year requirement for maximum OAS payments. The question is, whether doing that to any great extent would be considered morally right or wrong.

Visa requirements are indeed the barrier to working in another country and retiring in another country. But calling them 'obsolete' is simply putting your own wishes ahead of those of the country you want to host you. Visa requirements are there in the interest of the country issuing the visa. They are not there to benefit you. 

Do not let hubris lead you into thinking 'gaming the system' is the right thing to do.


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## gibor365

> Well, the USA is not a country in which I will step foot while they continue to act in the way they are towards the rest of the world right now


 it's a nonsense to retire in US  (and not even because of US politics). I've read that only in Mexico there are 1 mil US expats and about 3 mil in total.


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## Longtimeago

Eder said:


> Health care is pretty cheap almost everywhere except the USA...(although I went to see a doc in Vegas and was charged only $40/visit + meds). Alberta Health Care will reimburse for most out of country necessary doctor visits/procedures up to the dollar limit they allow in Alberta.
> 
> Boats & rv's are perfect to use for would be expats...if you made a mistake in the area you choose its simple to pack up & move on...most of us like the moving on part the most.


Interestingly Eder, there seems to be a pattern to what happens when people decide to 'full time' in an RV (and is also much the same in boats, but I'll just go through the RV cycle). It applies pretty much the same to those who plan to spend winters in the RV or those who sell up and plan to live full time in their RV. They buy the RV and hit the road. They then discover the pluses and minuses of living in and moving an RV obviously. After a year or two of moving the RV around and getting tired of the problems of doing that, they tend to pick a spot and park the RV for long periods. ie. drive it south and park it for the winter, then drive it back in the spring if they are only snowbirding. After a while even that starts to make less sense to them so they pick a spot and park it more or less permanently. The next move is to say, 'well why are we living in this limited space movable RV when we don't move it, let's buy a 'park model'. A park model is a mobile home that only gets moved to a location and then permanently parked for the rest of it's life. Thus they complete the cycle from a permanent home through a 'mobile' home and back to a permanent mobile home. LOL

I know of places in Southern California where you can buy a park model home in a golf course community for $25k USD plus $6k per year membership fees. You could just avoid the cycle if you wanted and jump right to the end.


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## Longtimeago

gibor365 said:


> Can you share in which countries did you live?
> 
> From some research I did, it's a lot of hassle to retire in another country (moving your tax home away from CRA, medical insurance, special visas etc), thus I'd prefer to live 6 months in Canada and 6 months abroad, keeping OHIP and OAS...


Yes I could share but don't see any relevance to doing so. Which countries make sense for any given individual will vary based on what they are looking for *and and what is available to them from a practical standpoint. 

I happen to have more than one citizenship, as does my wife. It is indeed a lot of hassle to retire to another country where you do not already have the right to live. But it is no hassle to do so if you do already have the right to live there. All the countries I have lived in, are countries in which I already had the right to live there. The only country where I have gone through the experience of getting the right to live in that country was in getting my wife the right to become a Permanent Resident in Canada. I find that a bit amusing really.

If you wanted to live 6 months per year abroad, then you could look for countries that allow up to 6 months as a tourist but it will still limit your choices. A 90 day tourist limit is more common. For some countries you can counter that 90 day limit by doing what is called a 'visa run'. That is, leave the country for a day or two and then re-enter and get a new 90 day visa. But that option is not always available and more and more countries where it has been possible in the past are closing down that 'way around' the visa issue.

From other posts you have written, I understand that you have a european background. How far back and could you explore the possibility of a second citizenship? If you can get citizenship from a country that is a member of the EU for example then that would open up all the member countries to you obviously. Could your wife get a second citizenship which would allow you to live in another country with her? This is one of the best ways to avoid the hassles of visas and adopt a 6 month cycle as you are considering. Otherwise, a 6 month cycle can be difficult to achieve for many countries.*


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## gibor365

I have Canadian and Israeli citizenship. Can get Russian one if I want. But none of them will let me live in Europe more than 3 months in half year period in one country. I don't see that in mine life time Israel will become a member of EU .... However, I really like Europe, lifestyle , culture, food.... We've been to half of Europe, only 4 times in France. Too bad I just cannot buy EU citizenship without any hassle .
It also would be interesting to try South America...
Meantime, from time to time I learn Spanish, as ...who knows?!
and I really wouldn't have problem to communicate in any Slavic country with my Russian 

My wife also has Canadian and Israeli citizenship and can get Georgian one.... but I also don't see Georgia can get EU membership. 

btw, I'm 51 and retired for 1 year, my wife is 42 and .... too ambitious .... working as senior director in one of the bog 5 Canadian banks ....and would retire only if in couple of years won;t get VP position lol


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## Retiredguy

Eclectic12 said:


> The BC web site says more than six months requires contacting Health Insurance BC where the residency page has a note saying for vacation purposes only, seven months works.https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...aging-your-msp-account/leaving-bc-temporarily
> 
> On one hand, seven months seems to be true but on the other hand, it seems to require a bit of extra work.
> 
> 
> Cheers




Very clear if travelling on vacation... (no extra work required)

Excerpt from website below.

"* Eligible B.C. residents (citizens of Canada or persons who are lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence) who are outside B.C. for vacation purposes only, are allowed a total absence of up to *seven months* in a calendar year."


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## fatcat

i can't think of a single country where 3 criteria are all met 

a) you can legally retire there 
b) the quality of the healthcare is at least as good and available as in canada and 
c) the price we have to pay as seniors is affordable since we inevitably would have to buy a policy of some kind for full health coverage and for over 65 it starts to get expensive

i looked quickly at some global health policies with big insurers like aetna and i was seeing 500-700 a month and that's without reading the fine print

i suspect a really decent seniors policy would come close to 1000 or more in a place that actually had a decent level of care

be cool if seniors could swap entitlements to national health programs ...


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## ArchViz

Longtimeago said:


> First, when someone sells up and moves to country X, it is a mistake to buy a home right away. It is always best to rent to begin with.  This is for several reasons. You do not know if you will in fact take to the place or not. My experience is that more don't than do. So they end up moving back 'home' and selling. I've never seen anyone make money when they sell, they invariably lose money. Renting avoids a bigger lose than buying will.
> 
> When you first move to country X, you may pick a place to live that after a time period you decide is the wrong spot. Different from deciding the country is wrong, it may just be the wrong neighbourhood in a given town. I had that happen to me once. Since I was renting, I just gave a month's notice and moved across town. You can't do that if you buy.
> 
> Many people for some unknown reason seem to leave their common sense behind when moving to country X. They buy a house/apartment without doing enough research and can end up in situations where ownership of the property is unclear or a highway gets built in their front yard a year after they buy, etc. etc. The simple fact is that until you know a place well enough to avoid such things, you shouldn't be buying anything. Much of the reason for why people get into trouble in this way is because more often than not, they are buying in a place that is popular with foreigners (that's you), not locals. So whether it is a Canadian retiree buying in a popular part of Costa Rica that is popular with Canadian retirees or a Brit buying in Spain, it's the same thing.
> http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/.../Expat-nightmare-turns-from-bad-to-worse.html Wouldn't you think that common sense should tell you that buying in a location that only appeals to a limited market segment (foreigners) is maybe not such a good idea? But in fact, most who do this don't even think about that. As I said, they leave common sense behind.


I couldn't agree more with this comment. I've known people who retired, immediately bought a home in a location and come to regret it a short time later, because they couldn't adapt or were forced to sell because they weren't wanted there. Renting cheaply is the best way to go. It gives you flexibility to move around and try different locations, and in the long run will probably be cheaper depending on where you choose to live.


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## Eder

Longtimeago said:


> Interestingly Eder, there seems to be a pattern to what happens when people decide to 'full time' in an RV (and is also much the same in boats, but I'll just go through the RV cycle). .



I've full timed in my rv since spring 2010, after buying the boat in 2013 we split 6 months each. Never been in one spot more than a month during that time, more likely a few days max. Very few stays involve an "rv park" or marina. Most of my vagabond friends do the same.

Not for everyone....many don't like strange places, many need tv and a hospital next door. I just suggested my lifestyle as suitable for those about to commit to living in a house in Panama 20 miles from the ocean.

disclaimer: Dont buy a cheap class C rv etc...they are too small and are junk. Think 500 sq' + minimum.


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## Koogie

Eder said:


> disclaimer: Dont buy a cheap class C rv etc...they are too small and are junk. Think 500 sq' + minimum.


What are you piloting ? A huge Class A ??


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## Eder

3 axles baby!


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## Koogie

Good on ya. I have enough troubles with a Class B... :cocksure:


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## AltaRed

That 3 axle must suck up the fuel. 10mpg or less?


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## m3s

Longtimeago said:


> A few comments for you m3s. When you apply for OAS, you are asked to list any absences from Canada of more than 6 months. So yes, you can be absent for up to 6 months every year and still count that year as 'resident in Canada' for the 40 year requirement for maximum OAS payments. The question is, whether doing that to any great extent would be considered morally right or wrong.


I've been absent from Canada for more than 6 months on many occasions serving the country itself so you can keep your moral judgments to yourself. It's an arbitrary number. A monthly/daily count would be ideal but would require an upgrade to the computer age. If someone is present for more than 6 months thery're paying taxes in Canada in some form or another for more than half the year anyways.



Longtimeago said:


> Visa requirements are indeed the barrier to working in another country and retiring in another country. But calling them 'obsolete' is simply putting your own wishes ahead of those of the country you want to host you. Visa requirements are there in the interest of the country issuing the visa. They are not there to benefit you.


Antiquated would be a better word than obsolete. I've had to negotiate around visa requirements for diplomatic reasons and they are definitely behind the times in many situations. Visa entry requirements are written to target a certain group and then smaller groups are always impacted unintentionally. Any agreement for Canadians to enter any other country is a diplomatic agreement and can be used as retaliation for political reasons (see recent UAE announcements)



Longtimeago said:


> Do not let hubris lead you into thinking 'gaming the system' is the right thing to do.


The system has unintentionally impacted me many times so I have no qualms with gaming it (ie following the rules) Everyone games systems (taxes) but it only suddenly bothers them when it's in a way that they don't game it themselves (ie hypocrisy) If you didn't game the system you would just blindly find out what happens to you? Doing that with visa entries would not work very well.


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## Eder

AltaRed said:


> That 3 axle must suck up the fuel. 10mpg or less?


About 7 US mpg...450hp...44,000 lbs.. We usually spend about 4k/year on fuel inc engine, 8kw gen and diesel boiler fan coil heating, but tow the Jeep so that comes along free as well as the 7000lbs of gear we have on board. 

If this is going to become about Co2 stuff keep in mind my sailboat is almost completely solar lol.


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## AltaRed

Eder said:


> If this is going to become about Co2 stuff keep in mind my sailboat is almost completely solar lol.


No...don't want to derail. Was just curious how thirsty one of those monsters were. 

Speaking of generators, electricity abroad, depending on location, may not be that dependable. A standby 8kw generator (or larger) is likely a critical accessory. Another off-topic....I am also thinking about having a 5.5-6kw standby generator here for us as we are highly vulnerable to a single source of supply that comes over mountain ranges....and could be out for weeks in event of a major forest fire. Duty limited by the 30amp 220V plug-in next to my breaker box.


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## kcowan

Longtimeago said:


> Advice from someone who has made a move. I'm guessing you do not live year round in Puerto Vallarta kcowan, is that right? A winter resident? Nevertheless, experience as a resident.


Rented for 10 years and retired during that time. Owned for 10 years. 6 months a year.



Longtimeago said:


> You might want to expand on why you would suggest renting in order to be able to change location. Why would you want to change location and when you say change it, what are you really talking about? Move a few blocks farther back from the beach or what?
> 
> Re the not choosing an apartment building that allows less than 3 months rentals, another good point. For those who do not realize the significance of this, it has to do with vacation rentals. Many people choose to retire to a place popular not only for retirement but also for tourists. Puerto Vallarta, Mexico is one such place obviously. The problem arises when you buy a condo in a building where other owners are renting their units out by the day or week to tourists. You can easily find yourself living in a party place. What is acceptable to someone when they are a tourist themselves, is not necessarily what they want when they are living there for 6 months of the year.


Physically we are no longer able to climb all those stairs multiple times per day in the heat. Need one floor (which we have) with an elevator (which we do not). There are 131 steps from downtown plus a flight of stairs inside. In evaluating alternatives, we rented for week in an new oceanfront condo. It has a kitchen that will deliver to the condo or any other location (bar, poolside, in its restaurant) at reasonable prices. But no pets, and no permanent residents. It was lonely because the other resident were out for their week sightseeing and not by the pool. Plus although it was right on a street, that street was 87 meters above the ocean, while our current condo is only 37 meters above sea level.

Again it reinforces the idea of rent before you buy. Even if you know the city.


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## Longtimeago

gibor365 said:


> I have Canadian and Israeli citizenship. Can get Russian one if I want. But none of them will let me live in Europe more than 3 months in half year period in one country. I don't see that in mine life time Israel will become a member of EU .... However, I really like Europe, lifestyle , culture, food.... We've been to half of Europe, only 4 times in France. Too bad I just cannot buy EU citizenship without any hassle .
> It also would be interesting to try South America...
> Meantime, from time to time I learn Spanish, as ...who knows?!
> and I really wouldn't have problem to communicate in any Slavic country with my Russian
> 
> My wife also has Canadian and Israeli citizenship and can get Georgian one.... but I also don't see Georgia can get EU membership.
> 
> btw, I'm 51 and retired for 1 year, my wife is 42 and .... too ambitious .... working as senior director in one of the bog 5 Canadian banks ....and would retire only if in couple of years won;t get VP position lol


Gibor365, you can indeed 'just buy EU citizenship'. Well, actually it is residency of a member country you can buy which can lead to citizenship if you want it. There is no such thing as EU citizenship. If Spain interests you then you could look at their 'Golden Visa' which is easy to get, gives you immediate access to all of the EU and without the 90 day limit. There isn't even any requirement to spend any of your time living in Spain, just 'pay and go' so to speak.

https://www.goldenvisas.com/spain-golden-visa


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## kcowan

m3s said:


> I've been absent from Canada for more than 6 months on many occasions serving the country itself so you can keep your moral judgments to yourself. It's an arbitrary number. A monthly/daily count would be ideal but would require an upgrade to the computer age. If someone is present for more than 6 months thery're paying taxes in Canada in some form or another for more than half the year anyways.


A couple of observations. A vacationer pays income tax in Canada if they are away for 7 months. The rate is quite reasonable. We average about 15% with a healthy income. The things we avoid are the GST and the high costs of groceries, gas and alcohol. We sublet so the tenant pays for housing costs while we are away. We save 40% all in while we are away. And that includes the cost of a trip to Europe.


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## Longtimeago

fatcat said:


> i can't think of a single country where 3 criteria are all met
> 
> a) you can legally retire there
> b) the quality of the healthcare is at least as good and available as in canada and
> c) the price we have to pay as seniors is affordable since we inevitably would have to buy a policy of some kind for full health coverage and for over 65 it starts to get expensive
> 
> i looked quickly at some global health policies with big insurers like aetna and i was seeing 500-700 a month and that's without reading the fine print
> 
> i suspect a really decent seniors policy would come close to 1000 or more in a place that actually had a decent level of care
> 
> be cool if seniors could swap entitlements to national health programs ...


Well, you may not be able to think of a single country that meets your 3 criteria fatcat but that doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means you don't know of them. I don't know why you are talking about your point c) when if you meet point a) it usually means you are eligible for the local national health services which are usually quite affordable. There are many countries with quality healthcare available unless you want to get into a pointless argument about what constitutes 'at least as good'. 

Also keep in mind that healthcare in Canada is not 'free' although we tend to think of it that way just like people in the UK. In fact, we just pay for it in taxes rather than directly. Nor is our healthcare necessarily the best in every way. Here is a good article that goes into some detail. https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/health/health-care-global-uk-national-health-system-eprise/index.html For example, we only have 2.5 primary care doctors per 1000 population while Germany has 4.1. We only have 2.7 beds per 1000 population while Germany has 8.2. So where does someone from Germany find healthcare that is at 'least' as good as in Germany? Not in Canada when it comes to access to a family physician or a bed in a hospital.

I think in terms of healthcare and moving abroad in retirement, it is more realistic to say that you want to find 'decent healthcare at a reasonable cost'. Don't go putting Canadian healthcare on a pedestal. It may be better in some ways and poorer in other ways than the healthcare available in another country.

So that leaves only the requirement to be able to gain 'legal residency' and that is indeed a barrier to many countries for many people. But there are some countries which are quite popular in places like S. America where the only requirement to get legal residency is an income requirement. In some cases as low as $1000 CAD per month. Most Canadian retirees could pass that requirement obviously. The standard of healthcare may be lower but with private coverage you may be able to make that up. If your cost of living goes from say $4k per month to $2k per month, why would you object to paying $1k per month to insure your healthcare standard? You have to look at the whole picture, not just one aspect in isolation.

In other countries, you can basically 'buy' residency as I noted in my response above to gibor365. Spain will 'sell' it to you and they do have a well regarded national healthcare system. Some would say it is better than Canada's.

A third way to get legal residency is by ancestry. If you had a grandfather who emigrated to Canada from say Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy for example, you could apply for residency on that basis. All have good weather and a lower cost of living than Canada.

There are many ways to 'skin a cat' fatcat (couldn't resist), that you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.


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## Longtimeago

ArchViz said:


> I couldn't agree more with this comment. I've known people who retired, immediately bought a home in a location and come to regret it a short time later, because they couldn't adapt or were forced to sell because they weren't wanted there. Renting cheaply is the best way to go. It gives you flexibility to move around and try different locations, and in the long run will probably be cheaper depending on where you choose to live.


I get annoyed when I see programs like House Hunters International or the UK's A Place In The Sun which supposedly show people buying homes abroad and give the impression that it's normal to think you can fly to a place for a week and find a place and buy it. I consider such shows to be doing a real disservice to anyone contemplating such a move. Again, it's about leaving common sense behind when someone does something like that. 

It is hard enough trying to adapt to a new country, without starting yourself off with 2 strikes against you. Rent, rent, rent for at least 1 or more years before buying anything, has to be the number one piece of advice anyone thinking about such a move should listen to.


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## Longtimeago

Eder said:


> I've full timed in my rv since spring 2010, after buying the boat in 2013 we split 6 months each. Never been in one spot more than a month during that time, more likely a few days max. Very few stays involve an "rv park" or marina. Most of my vagabond friends do the same.
> 
> Not for everyone....many don't like strange places, many need tv and a hospital next door. I just suggested my lifestyle as suitable for those about to commit to living in a house in Panama 20 miles from the ocean.
> 
> disclaimer: Dont buy a cheap class C rv etc...they are too small and are junk. Think 500 sq' + minimum.


Yes, some can adapt to 'full timing' in an RV or boat and I would guess in about the same numbers as those moving abroad in retirement. Less than 50% certainly. It is certainly an alternative that can be considered. Same caveats though, don't burn your bridges in case it doesn't work out for a given individual. 

There is an interesting book on the subject that although now a bit dated (first published in 1996 although later editions have some updates in information) you might find interesting if you haven't already read it.
http://articles.courant.com/1997-11-11/features/9711110071_1_rv-users-rvers-camping

https://www.amazon.com/Over-Next-Hill-Ethnography-Seniors/dp/1551111160

Available here for free as an e-book. https://www.fojtc.org/book/over-the-next-hill-an-ethnography-of-rving-seniors-in


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## AltaRed

As an aside, much of what is on HGTV is pornography, not just those International destination shows. Little realism in much? of their 'reality' programming, nor do they disclose the amount of litigation they face due to shoddy work. HGTV should be seen strictly as entertainment, but they clearly have found a following though among all those who have idle time on their hands, dreaming of fantasy outcomes.


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## Longtimeago

Huh, I wrote a response to gibor365 re being able to 'buy EU citizenship'. For some reason it doesn't seem to have been posted.

So I will try again in brief. While EU citizenship does not exist gibor365, you can in fact 'buy' legal residency in an EU country which then gives you access to all of the Schengen countries without the 90 day rule applying and without any requirement for you to even spend any time living in the country where you 'bought' residency from. Take a look at the Golden Visa that Spain offers. https://www.goldenvisas.com/spain-golden-visa

Other countries also offer similar visas. Portugal for example does. https://www.urhomeportugal.com/en/b...e-golden-visa-vs-the-spanish-golden-visa_168/


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## fatcat

Longtimeago said:


> Well, you may not be able to think of a single country that meets your 3 criteria fatcat but that doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means you don't know of them. I don't know why you are talking about your point c) when if you meet point a) it usually means you are eligible for the local national health services which are usually quite affordable. There are many countries with quality healthcare available unless you want to get into a pointless argument about what constitutes 'at least as good'.
> 
> Also keep in mind that healthcare in Canada is not 'free' although we tend to think of it that way just like people in the UK. In fact, we just pay for it in taxes rather than directly. Nor is our healthcare necessarily the best in every way. Here is a good article that goes into some detail. https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/health/health-care-global-uk-national-health-system-eprise/index.html For example, we only have 2.5 primary care doctors per 1000 population while Germany has 4.1. We only have 2.7 beds per 1000 population while Germany has 8.2. So where does someone from Germany find healthcare that is at 'least' as good as in Germany? Not in Canada when it comes to access to a family physician or a bed in a hospital.
> 
> I think in terms of healthcare and moving abroad in retirement, it is more realistic to say that you want to find 'decent healthcare at a reasonable cost'. Don't go putting Canadian healthcare on a pedestal. It may be better in some ways and poorer in other ways than the healthcare available in another country.
> 
> So that leaves only the requirement to be able to gain 'legal residency' and that is indeed a barrier to many countries for many people. But there are some countries which are quite popular in places like S. America where the only requirement to get legal residency is an income requirement. In some cases as low as $1000 CAD per month. Most Canadian retirees could pass that requirement obviously. The standard of healthcare may be lower but with private coverage you may be able to make that up. If your cost of living goes from say $4k per month to $2k per month, why would you object to paying $1k per month to insure your healthcare standard? You have to look at the whole picture, not just one aspect in isolation.
> 
> In other countries, you can basically 'buy' residency as I noted in my response above to gibor365. Spain will 'sell' it to you and they do have a well regarded national healthcare system. Some would say it is better than Canada's.
> 
> A third way to get legal residency is by ancestry. If you had a grandfather who emigrated to Canada from say Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy for example, you could apply for residency on that basis. All have good weather and a lower cost of living than Canada.
> 
> There are many ways to 'skin a cat' fatcat (couldn't resist), that you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.


not really wanting to pick a fight over the quality of canada's healthcare which has been good enough for me ... and i am certainly aware that many european countries have systems as good or better .... i had in mind countries in say south or central america

second, it never occurred to me that countries would accept an old person without some kind of buy-in to national health, maybe allowing permanent residency but requiring some kind of co-pay but what you says makes sense, i guess if you qualify for permanent residency you qualify for national health though it doesn't seem like much of a bargain to the host countries allowing in old folks who suck up the majority of health care dollars ... though obviously we are bringing in wealth and steady incomes which may help the economy

my people are from portugal though grandad from england, have to default to great-grandad and that probably won't work

interesting the 4 countries you name all have significant demographic and financial problems, they all do have great weather though

i have medicare and can live full time in arizona or florida so it isn't just sunshine i am after


----------



## Longtimeago

fatcat said:


> not really wanting to pick a fight over the quality of canada's healthcare which has been good enough for me ... and i am certainly aware that many european countries have systems as good or better .... i had in mind countries in say south or central america
> 
> second, it never occurred to me that countries would accept an old person without some kind of buy-in to national health, maybe allowing permanent residency but requiring some kind of co-pay but what you says makes sense, i guess if you qualify for permanent residency you qualify for national health though it doesn't seem like much of a bargain to the host countries allowing in old folks who suck up the majority of health care dollars ... though obviously we are bringing in wealth and steady incomes which may help the economy
> 
> my people are from portugal though grandad from england, have to default to great-grandad and that probably won't work
> 
> interesting the 4 countries you name all have significant demographic and financial problems, they all do have great weather though
> 
> i have medicare and can live full time in arizona or florida so it isn't just sunshine i am after


If I'm reading your comment correctly, you have a Portugese grandmother, is that right? If so you can apply for residency in Portugal. Nowadays there are few countries where it is confined to the male line of the family.

The demographics or financial problems a country has are only of concern if they would impact you as a retiree residing there. Keep in mind this is a retirement topic.

You couldn't pay me to live in Arizona or Florida fatcat. I have certain criteria that I use to evaluate a country and area of a country in terms of suitability for living there. Nowhere in the USA can get past the first few criteria. Nuff said.


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## fatcat

Longtimeago said:


> If I'm reading your comment correctly, you have a Portugese grandmother, is that right? If so you can apply for residency in Portugal. Nowadays there are few countries where it is confined to the male line of the family.
> 
> The demographics or financial problems a country has are only of concern if they would impact you as a retiree residing there. Keep in mind this is a retirement topic.
> 
> You couldn't pay me to live in Arizona or Florida fatcat. I have certain criteria that I use to evaluate a country and area of a country in terms of suitability for living there. Nowhere in the USA can get past the first few criteria. Nuff said.


right, its a great-grandfather and mother and yeah, i am not too big on arizona or florida either what with all the yahoos and their guns


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## Eclectic12

Longtimeago said:


> Eder said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've full timed in my rv since spring 2010, after buying the boat in 2013 we split 6 months each. Never been in one spot more than a month during that time, more likely a few days max. Very few stays involve an "rv park" or marina. Most of my vagabond friends do the same.
> 
> Not for everyone ...
> 
> 
> 
> ... Yes, some can adapt to 'full timing' in an RV or boat and I would guess in about the same numbers as those moving abroad in retirement. Less than 50% certainly. It is certainly an alternative that can be considered. Same caveats though, don't burn your bridges in case it doesn't work out for a given individual ...
Click to expand...

Similar to renting before buying, I would think that those that aspire to RV full time in retirement should do some trial runs before they retire. Where one does not like it on a part time basis, odds are likely good they won't like it on a full time basis either.


Cheers


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## kcowan

Longtimeago said:


> I get annoyed when I see programs like House Hunters International or the UK's A Place In The Sun which supposedly show people buying homes abroad and give the impression that it's normal to think you can fly to a place for a week and find a place and buy it. I consider such shows to be doing a real disservice to anyone contemplating such a move. Again, it's about leaving common sense behind when someone does something like that..


House Hunters seeks out people who have studied and decided on a house in a location. Then they stage the house search and conclude that the already selected house is their choice. We know people in PV who have participated and others who were approached and declined.


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## AltaRed

Indeed, I think we all know the show is staged. Just about everything is.


----------



## gibor365

Longtimeago said:


> Huh, I wrote a response to gibor365 re being able to 'buy EU citizenship'. For some reason it doesn't seem to have been posted.
> 
> So I will try again in brief. While EU citizenship does not exist gibor365, you can in fact 'buy' legal residency in an EU country which then gives you access to all of the Schengen countries without the 90 day rule applying and without any requirement for you to even spend any time living in the country where you 'bought' residency from. Take a look at the Golden Visa that Spain offers. https://www.goldenvisas.com/spain-golden-visa
> 
> Other countries also offer similar visas. Portugal for example does. https://www.urhomeportugal.com/en/b...e-golden-visa-vs-the-spanish-golden-visa_168/


Interesting , so if we buy house in Spain for 500,000 EUR, we can permanently live in Spain.... theoretically it's possible, as we own detached house in Mississauga that can sell for similar amount and 1,5 M in savings will be enough to live there ....

Also, theoretically , we could've apply for german residency as Jewish family, but for this we need to go back to Soviet Union (mydelf to Russia and my wife to Georgia) as


> Jewish immigrants may only submit their applications at German diplomatic missions in their countries of origin.


----------



## gibor365

> I think in terms of healthcare and moving abroad in retirement, it is more realistic to say that you want to find 'decent healthcare at a reasonable cost'. Don't go putting Canadian healthcare on a pedestal. It may be better in some ways and poorer in other ways than the healthcare available in another country.


 True! As per WHO , Canada is on 30th place in the World, behind countries like Colombia (interesting retirement place) and Morocco


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## fatcat

gibor365 said:


> Interesting , so if we buy house in Spain for 500,000 EUR, we can permanently live in Spain.... theoretically it's possible, as we own detached house in Mississauga that can sell for similar amount and 1,5 M in savings will be enough to live there ....
> 
> Also, theoretically , we could've apply for german residency as Jewish family, but for this we need to go back to Soviet Union (mydelf to Russia and my wife to Georgia) as


that would be a fascinating experiment, to see how germany really behaves toward jewish people (despite loud protests and attempts to rehabilitate their image) and how much anti-semitism lingers

i think it has gone up a fair bit but housing in berlin until recently was pretty affordable


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## Longtimeago

gibor365 said:


> Interesting , so if we buy house in Spain for 500,000 EUR, we can permanently live in Spain.... theoretically it's possible, as we own detached house in Mississauga that can sell for similar amount and 1,5 M in savings will be enough to live there ....
> 
> Also, theoretically , we could've apply for german residency as Jewish family, but for this we need to go back to Soviet Union (mydelf to Russia and my wife to Georgia) as


You don't have to live in Spain, only own property worth 500k Euros. For Portugal it is as low as 350k Euros. It can be a rental property and you can be living in another Schengen country if you wish to. Not all Schengen member countries have an investment visa program like these. The point is that it gives you access to all of them.

The bigger point is that for anyone reading this thread who is interested in living abroad in retirement, there are many ways to get the legal right to do so that most people are simply not aware of. So someone might be thinking, 'I'd like to live on a Greek island, but I can't legally do so.' That thought might be totally wrong, they just don't know of the way to do it.

Reading some of the links here might open a few people's eyes.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cou...ome..69i57.10562j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## Eder

I met many expats living in French Polynesia. Not sure about the citizenship path there but couldn't be that hard considering the number of ex Canadians & Americans there.


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## Longtimeago

Well, system problems have obviously resulted in comments not being posted. It shows the last comment as #48 posted by Eder. Yet #48 is neither the last post or by Eder. LOL

Gibor365, I posted another response to you but it had gone missing. Briefly, you would not have to live in Spain. The Golden Visa would give you 'entry' and allow you to live in any of the Schengen countries with no real requirement to reside in Spain at all. It could be a rental property you bought for example.

My point is that there are lots of ways to get legal residency in many countries. But the average person is simply not aware of them. Like you, they may say, 'I'd like to live in X but I can't', based on an uninformed belief that they have. Anyone interested in living abroad in retirement needs to do their research before ruling anything out. Here's a good place to start: https://www.google.com/search?q=eas....69i57j0l5.15810j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## Longtimeago

FontSize 

Well, system problems have obviously resulted in comments not being posted. It shows the last comment as #48 posted by Eder. Yet #48 is neither the last post or by Eder. LOL

Gibor365, I posted another response to you but it had gone missing. Briefly, you would not have to live in Spain. The Golden Visa would give you 'entry' and allow you to live in any of the Schengen countries with no real requirement to reside in Spain at all. It could be a rental property you bought for example.

My point is that there are lots of ways to get legal residency in many countries. But the average person is simply not aware of them. Like you, they may say, 'I'd like to live in X but I can't', based on an uninformed belief that they have. Anyone interested in living abroad in retirement needs to do their research before ruling anything out. Here's a good place to start: https://www.google.com/search?q=eas....69i57j0l5.15810j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## AltaRed

This forum has been f*cked up for some time regarding posts. Terrible software in my opinion. Even worse administration and oversight.


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## james4beach

Spain is worth a look, just for visiting and doing lengthy rentals. A few years ago I was in the Canary Islands and couldn't believe how affordable the ocean-side apartment rental was. It was approx $60 to $70 CAD per night at this apartment complex after all taxes/fees and probably would have been even less if I stayed longer.

This was just steps away from the ocean, a fully self contained apartment with excellent kitchen, living room and balcony. It was much larger than my Toronto apartment and almost the same price per night! When I left the Canary Islands, I was asking myself... why exactly am I spending that kind of money living in Toronto when for the same amount of money I could be living on a beautiful sunny island.

I still ask myself that question (generally).


----------



## james4beach

By the way, in case anyone feels like a trip to the Canary Islands (Spain), I looked up that same apartment earlier (link is in my last post). In October, it's running $71 per night after all taxes & fees ... same price as when I stayed a few years ago. This was just for the first dates I plugged in, so I didn't even look for deals or best pricing.

Meanwhile, my apartment rent+utilities costs me $68/day -- locked into a 12 month lease. Just amazing. For about the same daily cost, I could be in the Canary Islands.


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## Longtimeago

James4beach, you might want to take a look at the Cape Verdes.

All vacation/retirement locations in the world tend to follow the curve identified by Butler. https://geographyfieldwork.com/ButlerModel.htm Depending on where a place is on that curve, what can seem attractive as a place to buy a retirement home today, may not be such a great place some years later and of course some years later for a retiree means when you are less and less able to cope with things.

While the Canaries did not get hit as badly as mainland Spain did, Spain is a good example for retirees to look at in regards to what could happen. Demand for vacation/retirement properties was booming right up until the recession hit and now they can't give them away. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/.../Expat-nightmare-turns-from-bad-to-worse.html

It doesn't matter if values go down if you are happy to continue living in a place but if you decide you want out, you may have a problem. It is always easier to buy than to sell and particularly so if it is in a tourist destination which is often the kind of location retirees move to. Again, renting for a fairly long period of time before buying anything is the best way to go. 

Your comment re the Canaries also brings up another point I think worth considering when someone is looking at retirement abroad. That is island vs. mainland. Whenever you choose to move to an island, it almost always means more limited access to travel elsewhere. For example with the Canaries vs. mainland Spain, it is not difficult to understand that the mainland would mean easy access to all the rest of Europe whereas the Canaries automatically means you have to first fly to the mainland. 

Often an island also means higher costs for all kinds of things including food and furniture. Years ago I visited the Turks and Caicos islands and liked it there. But every can of Campbell soup or tv, refrigerator, sofa, etc. has to be shipped to the island (usually from Miami) which adds to the cost of everything and the hassle of buying them. Just ask anyone who lives on Saltspring Island in BC about that topic, they know.

So while the cost you see is $71 per night james4beach, that is as a vacationer, not as someone living there. You have to consider all other costs including things like healthcare, transportation, groceries, etc. to compare living there to living in your Toronto apartment. You can't just say it's $68 vs. $71 and 'For about the same daily cost, I could be in the Canary Islands.' That's a way too simple a comparison.


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## gibor365

fatcat said:


> that would be a fascinating experiment, to see how germany really behaves toward jewish people (despite loud protests and attempts to rehabilitate their image) and how much anti-semitism lingers
> 
> i think it has gone up a fair bit but housing in berlin until recently was pretty affordable


I know a lot of former Soviet Jewish who live in Germany and never heard any complains... I was told that they got more privileges than ethnic Soviet Germans


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## gibor365

> Gibor365, I posted another response to you but it had gone missing.


 Longtimeago, thanks for interesting info


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## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Spain is worth a look, just for visiting and doing lengthy rentals. .


Ideal place, cheap, excellent food and weather, history, cheap internal flights, one of the best in the world train system.

Somebody mentioned Cadiz area .... just checked some rentals. 3 bedroom villa in Arcos de la Frontera 275EUR/month!
https://www.thinkspain.com/property...tera?maxprice=300#p:/spanish-property/3588147
It's $411 CAD! Cannot believe it  . Out of curiosity checked that minimum price to rent 3 bed house in our area $2,500! On those $2,000/month difference we could've live even without additional income 
And compare how look Arcos vs Mississauga or Cadiz vs Toronto 

https://www.afectoanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Arcos_2009_028.jpg
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageser...4682a575d.jpg?crop=1053,592,246,34&resize=685

Now Cost of Living comparisson


> You would need around 3,258.98C$ (2,179.30€) in Cadiz to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,100.00C$ in Toronto (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax).


Safety index (a very important factor for me)


> Safety walking alone during daylight
> Cadiz Very High 95.83
> Toronto Very High 82.55
> Safety walking alone during night
> Cadiz High 70.83
> Toronto High 60.98


The problem is how to convince my wife how get to hell outta here ?!


----------



## Longtimeago

gibor365 said:


> Ideal place, cheap, excellent food and weather, history, cheap internal flights, one of the best in the world train system.
> 
> Somebody mentioned Cadiz area .... just checked some rentals. 3 bedroom villa in Arcos de la Frontera 275EUR/month!
> https://www.thinkspain.com/property...tera?maxprice=300#p:/spanish-property/3588147
> It's $411 CAD! Cannot believe it  . Out of curiosity checked that minimum price to rent 3 bed house in our area $2,500! On those $2,000/month difference we could've live even without additional income
> And compare how look Arcos vs Mississauga or Cadiz vs Toronto
> 
> https://www.afectoanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Arcos_2009_028.jpg
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageser...4682a575d.jpg?crop=1053,592,246,34&resize=685
> 
> Now Cost of Living comparisson
> 
> 
> Safety index (a very important factor for me)
> 
> 
> The problem is how to convince my wife how get to hell outta here ?!


You don't, you convince her to try a long term vacation. ie. 2 or 3 winter months in whatever area attracts you.


----------



## My Own Advisor

2 or 3 months as a winter vacation...in retirement....sounds amazing.

If only I could be so lucky 

Snowbirds, what are your expenses for that? Would any of you be willing to share details for my site/for an article? I can appreciate there is always "it depends" but I'd like to profile someone and have a case study for what they do; how much it costs to go for ~ 2-3 months; food, flights, accommodations, extras, etc. It would be good to know how you manage insurance while you are away. Both health, away, and principle home, while not there. 

Feel free to reach out Longtimeago or others - appreciated.


----------



## gibor365

Longtimeago said:


> You don't, you convince her to try a long term vacation. ie. 2 or 3 winter months in whatever area attracts you.


This is what I'm trying to do . First of all I want to take her for a short term vacation to this area and maybe long term vacation.... in 1 year our daughter is going to University and leaving the house.... I hope my wife will be more flexible then to go short term vacation and long term later.... just didn't want to go there in August when our daughter has vacation ... we've been to Barcelona area and Southern France in summer ... it's so freaking hot (instead next week we;re going to Ireland with daughter)


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## gibor365

> Snowbirds, what are your expenses for that? Would any of you be willing to share details for my site/for an article?


 it would very interesting to read such reports


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## james4beach

My Own Advisor said:


> Snowbirds, what are your expenses for that? Would any of you be willing to share details for my site/for an article?


I have some figures from a winter trip to Australia and Cook Islands in the south pacific. It was a total of 70 days away from Canada. The total cost was 15K which includes flights, accommodations, food and all incidental expenses. This was for one person but for two people it would be more efficient due to sharing accommodations.

Flights were an expensive part of that trip, however. The round trip flight from Canada was 2K and I spent another 1K flying and exploring domestically.

So you could call this 12K to escape Canadian winter for 10 weeks, ignoring the cost of the flight.


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## ian

SIL retired in Valencia. They love it, bought a flat in the middle of town. But, they were/are very familiar with Spain. Friends have been in Panama (Boquette) for years. Lifestyle change and business opportunity. They have since retired there. They claim that 50 percent of the people who buying a retirement home end up selling and returning home within a year or two. Other friends tried New Zealand for a few winters but subsequently found out that they were past the age that NZ would allow them to become full time residents.

For the past six years we have spent 2-3 months travelling to warmer climates. Four in SE Asia, two in South and Central America. There are a fair amount of folks who spend their winters in these places. But, as one of our hosts in Southern Thailand (Swiss expat) told us emergency medical care can be a real concern. One thing that we did notice is that inflation can be very different in some countries than it is in Canada. We spent six weeks in Costa Rica. Four years were were back for another few weeks. We noticed a substantial increase in the price of food, restaurant meals, accommodation, etc. Now, that could have been because the USD increased so much vis a vis ours. Costa Rica appears to be very much tied to USD, Panama actually uses USD. This could be an issue for expats.


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## OhGreatGuru

ian said:


> ... They claim that 50 percent of the people who buying a retirement home end up selling and returning home within a year or two. ....


I have heard many similar stories of people who have either:
a) sold everything and moved back to their country of origin, only to discover it was not the same as they remembered it when they left as a kid/youth 40-50 years earlier; or,
b) Sold everything and moved to some dream retirement country, without trying it out first, only to discover there is a difference between dreams and reality. (or even that living in place permanently is a lot different than visiting for a week or 2 on vacation)


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## ian

At one point after retirement my father suggested to my mother that they retire to his native Scotland. She told him to enjoy his retirement, she was not budging from Vancouver. So ended the conversation. We do know people who did move back but, as you say, it was not the country that they left years ago. They were happy to return to Canada.


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## gibor365

OhGreatGuru said:


> I have heard many similar stories of people who have either:
> a) sold everything and moved back to their country of origin, only to discover it was not the same as they remembered it when they left as a kid/youth 40-50 years earlier; or,
> b) Sold everything and moved to some dream retirement country, without trying it out first, only to discover there is a difference between dreams and reality. (or even that living in place permanently is a lot different than visiting for a week or 2 on vacation)


It's stupid to buy property without living at least 1 year.

btw, I've heard that real estate prices went down in Spain after Brexit. Many Brits are selling.


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## humble_pie

ian said:


> At one point after retirement my father suggested to my mother that they retire to his native Scotland.



ah, that explains it. Scotland exported some of the most progressive ideas & values the world has ever known. Universal free public education. Hard work. Good public order (in canada, this would manifest as the early presence of mounted policemen in the frontier territories.) Scottish engineers are legendary.

.


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## ArchViz

gibor365 said:


> Ideal place, cheap, excellent food and weather, history, cheap internal flights, one of the best in the world train system.
> 
> Somebody mentioned Cadiz area .... just checked some rentals. 3 bedroom villa in Arcos de la Frontera 275EUR/month!
> https://www.thinkspain.com/property...tera?maxprice=300#p:/spanish-property/3588147
> It's $411 CAD! Cannot believe it  . Out of curiosity checked that minimum price to rent 3 bed house in our area $2,500! On those $2,000/month difference we could've live even without additional income
> And compare how look Arcos vs Mississauga or Cadiz vs Toronto
> 
> https://www.afectoanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Arcos_2009_028.jpg
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageser...4682a575d.jpg?crop=1053,592,246,34&resize=685
> 
> Now Cost of Living comparisson
> 
> 
> Safety index (a very important factor for me)
> 
> 
> The problem is how to convince my wife how get to hell outta here ?!



Take your wife there and a few weeks will be more than enough to convince her.

My parents from Cadiz. They currently spend about 5 months of the year there enjoying their retirement. My brother moved there about 15 years ago and refuses to come back to Canada. He's happily married to a local and provides services for rental villas. 

I don't suggest visiting in July and August. It's far too hot and the influx of tourists and vacationers make it impossible to enjoy properly. The best times in my opinion are Sept-Nov and March-June. You still have beach fine beach weather and the vacationers have all gone home, which means you get to enjoy things as the locals do. In a relaxed fashion. 

As for cost of living, a single person can get by on much less than than 2,179.30€. In that region such a wage is considered well off. 

If you need to know anything about the area PM me and I can answer any specific questions.


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## Longtimeago

My Own Advisor said:


> 2 or 3 months as a winter vacation...in retirement....sounds amazing.
> 
> If only I could be so lucky
> 
> Snowbirds, what are your expenses for that? Would any of you be willing to share details for my site/for an article? I can appreciate there is always "it depends" but I'd like to profile someone and have a case study for what they do; how much it costs to go for ~ 2-3 months; food, flights, accommodations, extras, etc. It would be good to know how you manage insurance while you are away. Both health, away, and principle home, while not there.
> 
> Feel free to reach out Longtimeago or others - appreciated.


The simple answer is that it costs you as much as you want to spend. There are just too many variables for it to make sense to try and use a specific example and say it tells you anything meaningful My Own Advisor. The figure of $15k given by James4Beach for 2+ months is as good a number as any.

Regarding insurance, you obviously need travel medical coverage which can be as little as a couple of hundred per month or as much as say $1500 per month depending on your health condition. You need someone visiting your home back in Canada as your home coverage will be void if you don't arrange for that and say a pipe bursts and floods your home.

A long term vacation is not so much a 'vacation' as it is 'living' somewhere else for a period of time. So when you amortize something like air travel cost over 60 days instead of a 7 or 14 day vacation, it's a lot less per day obviously. The same is true of renting a place. It isn't a hotel you pay per night, it's a house you rented by the month. Food is from the supermarket and you are cooking it yourself, not going out to restaurants for every meal as you do on a 'normal' vacation. 

Where you go also has a major impact. Two months in Switzerland (my favourite vacation destination) would cost a lot more than 2 months in Thailand etc.

So overall, there are as I say, just too many variables to try and come up with an 'average' cost of any kind.


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## kcowan

My Own Advisor said:


> 2 or 3 months as a winter vacation...in retirement....sounds amazing.
> 
> If only I could be so lucky
> 
> Snowbirds, what are your expenses for that? Would any of you be willing to share details for my site/for an article? I can appreciate there is always "it depends" but I'd like to profile someone and have a case study for what they do; how much it costs to go for ~ 2-3 months; food, flights, accommodations, extras, etc. It would be good to know how you manage insurance while you are away. Both health, away, and principle home, while not there.
> 
> Feel free to reach out Longtimeago or others - appreciated.


We have been snowbirding for 10 years in PV as I have explained elsewhere. Budget savings were 60% cheaper than Vancouver for living expense. We own a 1760 sq.ft. condo that cost $250k US with very low maintenance costs. Peso exchange improved from 12.1 to 15.5 to the C$. Medical coverage has increased from $1600 to $6500 for two for 6 months. Medical/dental care in PV is excellent.


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## Longtimeago

There are countless places to retire in the world or to 'snowbird' if that appeals to someone more. The thing is that until you get out and find them, as the saying goes, 'you don't know what you don't know'.

For example, suppose I told you that I know of a place in Southern California (you would fly in to Palm Springs airport or San Diego), that is an hour and a half drive from the Ocean, an hour to winter skiing in the mountains and yet during the normal snow bird months of November through March has average temperatures of 26/21/21/23/26C and average rainfall (no snow) on 1-2 days per month. They actually hope for a good winter of rain as it brings out the desert in bloom.
https://www.google.com/search?q=bor...cAhVI3IMKHUwxAngQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1350&bih=635

Now also suppose that you could buy a move in ready 'park model' home in a gated golf course community for as little as $10k-15k USD. Don't believe me? Take a look here:
http://www.roadrunnerclub.com/resale.htm

I have been visiting this area first on shorter vacations and then on longer stays (of and on, not every year)for over 30 years and I can say it is what I consider a jewel of a place to spend time in. The little town of Borrego Springs has hardly changed in all that time, although developers have tried repeatedly to turn it into another Palm Springs and have failed. My favourite bar/restaurant there hasn't changed since I first visited, although Carlee herself is no longer there. http://www.carleesplace.com/

Everyone know what a Jackalope is? Found locally. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw1NBBP7tWOP1ICJIkDQbtaD&ust=1534788753911029



Probably the most expensive place to snow bird is Florida simply because it is the most well known. There are other places that offer just as much for far less if you know where to look.


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## gibor365

ArchViz said:


> Take your wife there and a few weeks will be more than enough to convince her.
> 
> My parents from Cadiz. They currently spend about 5 months of the year there enjoying their retirement. My brother moved there about 15 years ago and refuses to come back to Canada. He's happily married to a local and provides services for rental villas.
> 
> 
> As for cost of living, a single person can get by on much less than than 2,179.30€. In that region such a wage is considered well off.
> 
> If you need to know anything about the area PM me and I can answer any specific questions.


Thanks a lot ArchViz! 
That is my plan, to take my wife there for couple of weeks. Trying to convince her to buy additional vacation days for next year 



> I don't suggest visiting in July and August. It's far too hot and the influx of tourists and vacationers make it impossible to enjoy properly. The best times in my opinion are Sept-Nov and March-June. You still have beach fine beach weather and the vacationers have all gone home, which means you get to enjoy things as the locals do. In a relaxed fashion.


 Yeap, exactly why instead of Spain , decided to go now to Ireland.



> They currently spend about 5 months of the year there enjoying their retirement.


 exactly my plan 
P.S. Gonna PM you


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## Longtimeago

I used to rent a 2 bedroom apartment here for $400 CAD per month in the winter months. Some time ago now (12 years) but I've no doubt direct contact would get someone a very decent price. Ignore vacation time period prices. Off season, direct rentals anywhere are always far different whether it's Greece, Spain or many other countries. The booking site linked here says 'Reservations longer than 30 nights not possible'. That's a joke.

https://www.booking.com/hotel/gr/niki-apartments-trianta.html

Or how about this beachfront apartment for $1100 per month. It's in the Cape Verdes, a bit harder to get to but early on the tourist curve, so the prices can be quite low still for rentals. 

https://www.vrbo.com/1335212ha

As for weather: https://www.capeverdeislands.org/cape-verde-climate-and-weather/


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## gibor365

Longtimeago said:


> I used to rent a 2 bedroom apartment here for $400 CAD per month in the winter months. Some time ago now (12 years) but I've no doubt direct contact would get someone a very decent price. Ignore vacation time period prices. Off season, direct rentals anywhere are always far different whether it's Greece, Spain or many other countries. The booking site linked here says 'Reservations longer than 30 nights not possible'. That's a joke.
> 
> https://www.booking.com/hotel/gr/niki-apartments-trianta.html
> 
> Or how about this beachfront apartment for $1100 per month. It's in the Cape Verdes, a bit harder to get to but early on the tourist curve, so the prices can be quite low still for rentals.
> 
> https://www.vrbo.com/1335212ha
> 
> As for weather: https://www.capeverdeislands.org/cape-verde-climate-and-weather/


Personally I wouldn't like to retire on Cape Verde, Azores or any other islands. The beauty of mainland that you can always to drive , take train or flights to different countries/ares.to go to concerts, museums or what the hell  to go to watch real football game . At any island I'd be bored after couple of weeks.


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## kcowan

One thing you should consider is the aspects other than financial. Once you get beyond a month, playing golf or tennis or bridge, or sitting on the beach gets boring. Six months is half your life so look for active social groups and easy access to other desirable places to visit while being a snowbird.

(That is why Numbeo provides comparisons other than financial when comparing destinations.)

We rented for one month then 2 and 3 months before buying. The break even for owning was a 4 month stay.


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## AltaRed

gibor365 said:


> Personally I wouldn't like to retire on Cape Verde, Azores or any other islands. The beauty of mainland that you can always to drive , take train or flights to different countries/ares.to go to concerts, museums or what the hell  to go to watch real football game . At any island I'd be bored after couple of weeks.


I would agree. I would also not want to snowbird for 5-6 months in Hawaii despite there being half a dozen islands to explore (and it being expensive). Nothing more restrictive than an island.


----------



## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> One thing you should consider is the aspects other than financial. Once you get beyond a month, playing golf or tennis or bridge, or sitting on the beach gets boring. Six months is half your life so look for active social groups and easy access to other desirable places to visit while being a snowbird.
> 
> (That is why Numbeo provides comparisons other than financial when comparing destinations.)
> 
> We rented for one month then 2 and 3 months before buying. The break even for owning was a 4 month stay.


Well yes and no kcowan. What is the alternative to sitting on the beach that you have at home? What I'm saying is that how you use your time whether at home or somewhere else for a period of time does not usually differ. If someone is a couch potato at home, chances are they will be a couch potato as a snowbird.

I do agree completely that it is better to have interests that you pursue when you retire but they will differ by individual. For example, 'active social groups' are of no interest to me whatsoever. That's the same as spending your time at a Seniors Centre at home, my idea of a version of hell. If I ever find myself at a 'bingo night' or playing bridge in a Florida trailer park, I hope I'll have the good sense to slit my wrists. LOL But too each his own.

It's fine to say that someone retiring abroad should consider what there is of interest to them in that country but it assumes they have interests! I sometimes wonder about ow many people seem to have no interests at all. When I hear someone saying, 'but what will you do when you retire' and especially, 'you're too young to retire, you'll be bored in a month', it seems clear to me that those are people with no real interests outside of work and family etc. I have never had a day in which I said, 'I'm bored, I've got nothing to do today'.


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## Longtimeago

AltaRed said:


> I would agree. I would also not want to snowbird for 5-6 months in Hawaii despite there being half a dozen islands to explore (and it being expensive). Nothing more restrictive than an island.


Again, this is a yes and no issue AltaRed and gibor365. It all depends on your interests. While living on an island does restrict travel and I would caution against that for someone who is interested in travel as a part of what they do with their time, it is not a restriction for someone who does not wish to travel. There are many people who do not have an interest in travel and we cannot assume otherwise. I have already written here about island life restricting travel but we cannot write about it as if it is a restriction that will apply to everyone.

I lived on an Mediterranean island for quite a few years and found it only a minor inconvenience when making annual visits to family. But that was during a period of my life where I had already done a great deal of travel in the past and felt no great desire to do more for a while. Some people dream of retiring and beginning a life of travel that they were never able to do before, some do not have that same desire obviously.

Again, we are back to what are the person's interests. When I lived on 'my' island, I had no difficulty finding things of interest *to me*, to do. I delved in to the history, architecture, culture, flora and fauna, even the geology of the island. I didn't spend all my time mixing with tourists on the beach or playing bridge with expats.

We have to be careful of generalizations.


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## gibor365

> We have to be careful of generalizations.


 obviously, it depends on every specific person. I personally like diversification . This is why Spain attracts me a lot... Everything is close, sea, mountains, amazing architecture, great food .... air tickets within Europe are very cheap (include islands )
ex. Malaga - London and back $160 , Malaga - Bilbao $137, Canary Islands $200 ...
and you always can take cruise


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## AltaRed

Longtimeago said:


> We have to be careful of generalizations.


I simply agreed with Gibor what I would not want to do either. I didn't generalize or suggest anyone else would be the same as us. You assumed that yourself.


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## gibor365

IMO, it would be fun to find a like-minded couples and do some activities together


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## Eclectic12

Longtimeago said:


> ... I do agree completely that it is better to have interests that you pursue when you retire but they will differ by individual ...


From what I have observed of my relatives who retired ... one is better to start on the retirement interests before retirement or make sure they are building flexibility. Too many are so habit bound when they retire that what they thought they would pickup or do wasn't overcoming years of habits. 




Longtimeago said:


> ... For example, 'active social groups' are of no interest to me whatsoever. That's the same as spending your time at a Seniors Centre at home, my idea of a version of hell. If I ever find myself at a 'bingo night' or playing bridge in a Florida trailer park, I hope I'll have the good sense to slit my wrists. LOL But too each his own ...


Perhaps this is a narrow view of 'active social groups'?
For my parents as well as my cousin - several of their group involved a broad range of people. In my cousin's case, the group hosts and goes on trips around the world.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago

Eclectic12 said:


> From what I have observed of my relatives who retired ... one is better to start on the retirement interests before retirement or make sure they are building flexibility. Too many are so habit bound when they retire that what they thought they would pickup or do wasn't overcoming years of habits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps this is a narrow view of 'active social groups'?
> For my parents as well as my cousin - several of their group involved a broad range of people. In my cousin's case, the group hosts and goes on trips around the world.
> 
> 
> Cheers


You are talking about developing interests Eclectic12 and I understand your point. I tend to think that either you have interests or you don't. What I mean is, some people seem to have no interests and suggesting they can develop some either before or after retirement is not something I am sure they can do. What you may be observing is people trying to develop an interest in something when in fact no *real* interest was ever there to begin with. See what I'm saying? I think it may be a bit of the 'cart before the horse' kind of thing.

I think of it like reading. Some people enjoy reading all kinds of books on all kinds of things. Others if they are honest will tell you that they have never read a book since leaving school. For some it may indeed be that they simply have very poor reading skills and just can't enjoy reading but usually the reason they have poor reading skills is because they haven't read enough to develop better reading skills. 'Cart....horse'.

I don't know of any solution or even think one is possible, for people who have no interests in life and there certainly seem to be lots of people like that. An interest in retirement is something outside of the everyday, like hiking or car racing or even golf which is probably the most usual 'interest' for someone in N. America to try and develop after retirement and fail to do.

Regarding the 'active social groups', my example was just that, an example. Some people want to be part of a group of whatever kind and some do not. That is an example of where I am referring to being careful of generalizing. My wife and I for example are pretty avid hikers. Our idea of a great vacation is a couple of weeks spent hiking in the Swiss Alps. But we would never consider going with a group of people to do that. You give an example of group travel, my idea of hell. Any kind of group activity will only appeal to someone who likes group activity and to suggest it as it was first suggested here as a 'good thing to do' is simply wrong in that it is a generalization that presupposes that those reading are only those who like group activities.

I wasn't trying to say people should not suggest group activities, I was saying any suggestion should be given with the caveat of, 'if this appeals to you.' It is no different than my saying, 'hiking is a great thing to do when you are retired' and then leaving it at that as if everyone will consider it a great thing to do, rather than saying, 'hiking is a great thing to do when you are retired, if it appeals to you.' The first sentence would suggest that the writer thinks everyone has the same interests as they do. That could be considered a form of hubris in terms of being presumptuous. Or it could just be poor communication. Assuming others will understand that if it doesn't apply to them they can ignore it is not the same as making it clear you understand it may not apply to others and are not presuming it will. The second sentence makes it clear that you are presuming nothing.


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## m3s

There's a recurring discussion on financial independence boards where someone sacrifices/obsesses with early retirement only to achieve it and realize they burnt some bridges/didn't build a life to enjoy in the process. So build the life you want first and then save for it.

Interests and hobbies are built up and enriched over time with skill, experience, relationships etc. My hobbies and passions are mostly restricted by my free time. Even though I only do them after work I've managed to build pro-level relationship with some major companies. Full time or even 6 months/year would open up even more opportunities. Having more time flexibility also lets you chose the good weather conditions, travel to good conditions, off-season pricing/less crowds, slow travel savings, longer term rates, season passes etc. If you just start a hobby after retirement I think your would waste a lot of time trying to figure out your interests and then trying to learn it at an older age, then you need to build relationships with others with roughly the same interests/skill level etc

I really don't understand people who don't know what to do with their free time. I know people who will come in to work on time off or stay longer hours than required. Is it boredom or are they avoiding something/someone at home or what?


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## Eclectic12

Longtimeago said:


> You are talking about developing interests Eclectic12 and I understand your point.
> 
> I tend to think that either you have interests or you don't. What I mean is, some people seem to have no interests and suggesting they can develop some either before or after retirement is not something I am sure they can do. What you may be observing is people trying to develop an interest in something when in fact no *real* interest was ever there to begin with. See what I'm saying?


I understand your point ... but I see it as one part of the spectrum that I have observed over the years. 

Some will make no effort, some will make a token effort then go back to the what they are comfortable with and some will resist then grudgingly have some motivator that ends up with a dramatic switch. The run of the mill will be those who pursue their interests all their life, where retirement opens up their schedule to increase time with what they are doing and/or add new interests.




Longtimeago said:


> ... I don't know of any solution or even think one is possible, for people who have no interests in life and there certainly seem to be lots of people like that ...


At the end of the day, despite suggestions or what others are doing - the individual controls how open or closed they are going to be. 




Longtimeago said:


> ... An interest in retirement is something outside of the everyday, like hiking or car racing or even golf ...


For me ... an interest is an interest, full stop. I can think of several everyday interests that the open schedule of retirement will enable more of.




Longtimeago said:


> ... Regarding the 'active social groups', my example was just that, an example. Some people want to be part of a group of whatever kind and some do not.
> 
> That is an example of where I am referring to being careful of generalizing ... I wasn't trying to say people should not suggest group activities, I was saying any suggestion should be given with the caveat of, 'if this appeals to you.'


The specific instances suggested a narrow view of active social groups where you have clarified the group part is what bothers you (which applies to basically any group activity).

Including "if it appeals to you" does make it clear that everyone is different. I'll have to go back to read the thread as what I recall was more along the lines of "here is a suggestion that worked for me - take it or leave it" instead of "suggestion X works for everyone".


Cheers


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## james4beach

m3s said:


> I really don't understand people who don't know what to do with their free time. I know people who will come in to work on time off or stay longer hours than required. Is it boredom or are they avoiding something/someone at home or what?


It's a condition that scares me. In my mid 30s now and I'm already seeing some of my leisure activities deteriorating. It's starting to worry me. In my case, it's happening because after full days at work, I'm too exhausted to do anything else. One can then get into a routine where "work" is relatively easy (at least one has the muscle memory to do the motions).

For example, I really like going to the beach and ocean. Summer would have been a great time to go to the ocean side, and all I had to do was (a) book and plan the trip and (b) coordinate taking time off work.

However, as I was too busy with work, I kept coming home exhausted at the end of the day and unable to find time to do these things. It was on my agenda again last night, to do this planning. Instead I ended up working at the office from 9 am - 8 pm, struggling to balance a workload where I am always feeling behind. So yet again, no leisure planning. I just had time to go home, eat dinner, and go to bed.

As a result, summer flew by, and I didn't do the leisure activity I wanted. That scares me quite a bit.


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> It's a condition that scares me. In my mid 30s now and I'm already seeing some of my leisure activities deteriorating. It's starting to worry me. In my case, it's happening because after full days at work, I'm too exhausted to do anything else. One can then get into a routine where "work" is relatively easy (at least one has the muscle memory to do the motions).
> 
> For example, I really like going to the beach and ocean. Summer would have been a great time to go to the ocean side, and all I had to do was (a) book and plan the trip and (b) coordinate taking time off work.
> 
> However, as I was too busy with work, I kept coming home exhausted at the end of the day and unable to find time to do these things. It was on my agenda again last night, to do this planning. Instead I ended up working at the office from 9 am - 8 pm, struggling to balance a workload where I am always feeling behind. So yet again, no leisure planning. I just had time to go home, eat dinner, and go to bed.
> 
> As a result, summer flew by, and I didn't do the leisure activity I wanted. That scares me quite a bit.


Many years ago when I still needed to work for a living james4beach, I learned a few things. One was imparted to me by the President of a company I worked with. He told me that people who come in early to work give the impression of being eager while those who stay late give the impression of being unable to do their job within the allotted time. ie. 9-5 Worth some thought.

Another thing I learned was how to say 'no' without saying no, to my immediate supervisor/manager. When asked to take on yet another task, the response is, 'no problem, I can do that. Which of the tasks I now have do you want me to drop to fit this new one into my day?' The point being, no one can fit more than 8 hours of work into an 8 hour day and if that is what you are being paid for, you don't start accepting work that will require 10-12 hour days without re-negotiating your contract of employment. It's also sometimes referred to as 'who's got the monkey'. While that generally is taken to refer to how a manager should handle monkeys, it can also be applied to how you as a subordinate handle monkeys your boss tries to hand off to you.
http://blog.casual.pm/post/98987825515/whos-got-the-monkey-the-art-of-managing-your

Yet another thing was the expression and meaning of 'work expands to fill time available'. There are never enough hours in the day is a common complaint people have and yet the reality is that there is a finite number of hours in the day and somehow the work gets done. How can that be? The answer is that we can do a task in one of two ways. One is to define the time available and then do the best we can within that time. The other is to not define the time and then work on a task until we decide we have completed it. They are very different approaches as I'm sure you will agree. 

This leads to the 'Pareto Principle' or as it is also known, the '80/20 Rule.' I'm a big believer in this rule and apply it in pretty much everything I do. You can find all kinds of articles on it quite easily. https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1....psy-ab..4.9.1435...0j0i22i30k1.0.jNFSiSR0gW8

For example, I worked with a company as a salesperson and after having been at it for 6 months or so, I realized that of the 100 or so customers I was expected to call on on the company's behalf, there were a dozen or so who really did produce very little of the total orders but required far more effort to get that business. Every business has customers like that and anyone who has spent time in sales will know just what I am talking about. 

So I applied the 80/20 Rule. I simply stopped visiting those dozen customers and spent more time visiting the ones who were giving us good business. I did not tell my boss that I was doing so. At the end of the year, my sales were up by a decent percentage. At my 'annual review', my boss congratulated me on my sales figures and asked me what I attributed it to. That is when I told him that I had not called on the dozen customers for the last 6 months and instead spent my time with the customers who mattered the most. He was taken aback and started to say, 'but, but, but, you have to call on all of them, you could have sold a bit more if you had.' I asked him if he paid me according to the number of customers I visited or to produce results. 

Sometimes what the 80/20 rule shows us is that there are some things we do that produce minimal results and that we would be better off not doing at all. Instead, we should spend the time where the results warrant spending our time. Understanding that seems to be hard for many people.


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## james4beach

Thanks, this is a great post. I've actually printed this out on paper and plan to read & reflect on it during my flight.

I'm actually careful about not working more than 40 hours a week. The problem for me is that I find that (for the work I do) 40 hours still exhausts me too much. I am actively seeking solutions that will free up more leisure time. I also now have enough money that I don't need to work 40 hour weeks.


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## Longtimeago

To get back to the topic of this thread which is the subject of 'retiring abroad', we can also apply the 80/20 Rule to that as well in different ways.

Sometimes when looking for a place to retire abroad, people can do a huge amount of research trying to find that 'perfect place'. Of course there is no such place, nowhere is perfect. 

So using 80/20, we can determine what are the 20% of our criteria that are likely to produce the 80% of our satisfaction with a place. Those are the 'deal breakers', the other 80% of our criteria can be ignored or compromised on. An example of the 20% would be very high crime or very low medical facilities. Power brown outs (quite common in many places but something we are not as used to in Canada) would be an example of something in the less important 80%. 

In some popular retirement areas, a 'brown out' meaning either a drop in power that actually sees lights go dim, or even an everyday loss of power for a given amount of time is not uncommon. People in those places simply plan around it. They don't say, 'what, no internet connection every day from 5-7 pm, no I can't live there.' Yet some people when looking at a place to try in retirement will have on their criteria, 'good internet availability'. They're looking for perfect.


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> Thanks, this is a great post. I've actually printed this out on paper and plan to read & reflect on it during my flight.
> 
> I'm actually careful about not working more than 40 hours a week. The problem for me is that I find that (for the work I do) 40 hours still exhausts me too much. I am actively seeking solutions that will free up more leisure time. I also now have enough money that I don't need to work 40 hour weeks.


James4beach, someone in their mid-30s should not be 'exhausted' by 40 hours of work per week. Or at least, not unless they spend 40 hours digging ditches or something. If you really are feeling truly exhausted each day then my advice would be to see your doctor. My Brother was complaining for quite some time about being cold all the time and kept turning the heat up in his house. When he finally went to see his doctor it turned out he had a very low vitamin B12 number. So low, the doctor put him on monthly injections (not just start taking some vitamin B12 pills).

I'm not suggesting B12 is your problem but it may be an actual physical/medical problem, not about the amount of work you are doing.


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## Eder

Exercise is the cure for chronic laziness and depression. 2 hours/day on a bike will have you looking,feeling,sleeping better. (and you get to live forever). I agree no 30 year old should ever be tired after 8 hours, something is wrong.


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## nobleea

Thank you Longtimeago for this thread and your continued, insightful comments.
This has certainly been the most interesting one this year.


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## james4beach

Longtimeago said:


> James4beach, someone in their mid-30s should not be 'exhausted' by 40 hours of work per week. Or at least, not unless they spend 40 hours digging ditches or something. If you really are feeling truly exhausted each day then my advice would be to see your doctor. My Brother was complaining for quite some time about being cold all the time and kept turning the heat up in his house. When he finally went to see his doctor it turned out he had a very low vitamin B12 number. So low, the doctor put him on monthly injections (not just start taking some vitamin B12 pills).
> 
> I'm not suggesting B12 is your problem but it may be an actual physical/medical problem, not about the amount of work you are doing.


Not sure it's anything that dramatic. Hard work is just tiring. I'd say that most of my peers feel the same way.

Remember, we're sitting at desks, mainly forced to look at computer screens all day. It's very rough on the eyes and the whole body (neck, back, etc).

The reason I know it's work related is that as soon as I'm working less, my energy bounces back tremendously.


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## Eclectic12

m3s said:


> ... If you just start a hobby after retirement I think your would waste a lot of time trying to figure out your interests and then trying to learn it at an older age, then you need to build relationships with others with roughly the same interests/skill level etc.


Is there some need to avoid wasting time in retirement?

Don't get me wrong ... I think it is good to have/try things before retirement but I fully expect to pick up some new things in retirement.




m3s said:


> ... I really don't understand people who don't know what to do with their free time.


Me neither ...




m3s said:


> ... I know people who will come in to work on time off or stay longer hours than required. Is it boredom or are they avoiding something/someone at home or what?


Could be neither ... though the work environment will influence it. 

For some of my co-workers who stay late - the choice is to take twice as long to get home, have about twenty minutes then have to drive back to whatever event/pickup the kids. As they can do the things they would have done by staying at work, they figure more time doing something they like is better.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> Not sure it's anything that dramatic. Hard work is just tiring. I'd say that most of my peers feel the same way.
> 
> Remember, we're sitting at desks, mainly forced to look at computer screens all day. It's very rough on the eyes and the whole body (neck, back, etc).
> 
> The reason I know it's work related is that as soon as I'm working less, my energy bounces back tremendously.


The first two words you wrote are all you needed to write. "Not sure"

There is nothing 'dramatic' if you have a simple iron deficiency or thyroid imbalance james4beach. A simple blood test will determine that and the solution is also simple. The point is, at 35 you should not be feeling 'exhausted' as you wrote. Either you were exaggerating how tired you are or not, I don't know, you do. But if you are really too exhausted to book a vacation as you wrote, then it may be a simple medical condition that is treatable. When is the last time you have a physical exam and did you tell your GP that you are too tired to book a vacation. 

It's entirely up to you of course as to what you do and I'm not trying to say anything more than, have you considered it may be a medical issue and it costs you nothing to find out. Or could it be something else? https://www.livestrong.com/article/24069-causes-being-tired-time/

Eliminating possible causes to arrive at a cause is not the same thing as assuming a cause. I'll say no more on the subject james4beach.


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## humble_pie

Longtimeago said:


> The first two words you wrote are all you needed to write. "Not sure"
> 
> There is nothing 'dramatic' if you have a simple iron deficiency or thyroid imbalance james4beach. A simple blood test will determine that and the solution is also simple. The point is, at 35 you should not be feeling 'exhausted' as you wrote. Either you were exaggerating how tired you are or not, I don't know, you do. But if you are really too exhausted to book a vacation as you wrote, then it may be a simple medical condition that is treatable. When is the last time you have a physical exam and did you tell your GP that you are too tired to book a vacation.
> 
> It's entirely up to you of course as to what you do and I'm not trying to say anything more than, have you considered it may be a medical issue and it costs you nothing to find out.




jas4 the above is a really good idea. Get a medical checkup. I've read that thyroid probs can be difficult to diagnose, the basic test they give you doesn't always reveal the true picture ... read up on this before you see the doc so you'll know what kind of thyroid testing can be done

best of good wishes here. A med checkup shouldn't cost anything through your HMO. Here in canada private clinics run $1200-2000 but such fees would be worth it if the problem - chronic near-exhaustion - could be better defined by ruling out a long list of possible medical causes.

i had a boss once in your age group. He had your symptoms. It turned out he had mono. Very common. He recovered A-OK perfectly & went on with his career to eventually became one of the youngest recipients of the Order of Canada.


.


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## Longtimeago

Eclectic12 said:


> Is there some need to avoid wasting time in retirement?
> 
> Don't get me wrong ... I think it is good to have/try things before retirement but I fully expect to pick up some new things in retirement.


Eclectic12, there is always a need to avoid wasting time, you only have a limited amount of it. 

Being retired does not mean you have time to waste, it means you have time to use in whatever way you choose. It is at least as important to use that time wisely in retirement if not more important, as it usually means the person is in the later stages of life and has less time left to spend on anything. 

You say you expect to pick up some new things in retirement but what do you actually mean by that? Pick up things you have never thought of before or have time to spend on something you believe will interest you but you have not had time to explore while still having to work 40 hours a week? There is a difference. I cannot think of anything I have spent time on since retiring (28 years ago), that did not already interest me before retiring. But there are certainly things I have spent time on I did not have time to spend time on before retiring.

Generally speaking, you can name anything you want and I can tell you if it interests me or not. I think most but not all people can. If I were to write a list of all the things that interest me, it could be a very long list and the reality is that I will never have enough time to spend on them all. Why then would I ever need or want to 'pick up' some new things I haven't already thought of? You seem to be assuming the person does not have enough interests to begin with and *can* develop interests. I'm suggesting that those who do not already have enough interests probably *can't* develop interests.


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## humble_pie

Longtimeago said:


> I cannot think of anything I have spent time on since retiring (28 years ago), that did not already interest me before retiring.



oh i don't think so

you're saying that your repertoire of interests froze when you retired 28 years ago? never again would there be anything new under the sun for you?

nay nay, tis impossible to believe. The www itself did not exist back in 1990. You wouldn't be so peppy today if the sun had set for yourself in 1990 .each:


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## m3s

Eclectic12 said:


> Is there some need to avoid wasting time in retirement?
> 
> Don't get me wrong ... I think it is good to have/try things before retirement but I fully expect to pick up some new things in retirement.


It's only second hand knowledge from those who retired early; those who don't enjoy life while working don't always magically enjoy life once retired. So the repeated mantra from the early retirement crowd has been to build a life you enjoy first. Don't expect free time and retirement to solve everything, especially if you were one of those workaholics who doesn't have a life other than work.

Having lived overseas I also notice that americans self identify with their jobs a lot more. Their first questions are where are you from, what do you do etc. Americans will answer this question in terms of status and money, their job. If you take away the job they don't necessarily self identify as "doing" anything else because they don't answer this question with interests and hobbies.

Besides retirement there is a similar crisis with american soldiers who can no longer meet universality of service. Their job is often their life 24/7 and most of their community and without it they suddenly have to build an entire new life which can be catastrophic for some. For both these reasons I think it's important to figure out "what do you do?" outside of your work before you don't work.


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## indexxx

m3s said:


> It's only second hand knowledge from those who retired early; those who don't enjoy life while working don't always magically enjoy life once retired. So the repeated mantra from the early retirement crowd has been to build a life you enjoy first. Don't expect free time and retirement to solve everything, especially if you were one of those workaholics who doesn't have a life other than work.
> 
> Having lived overseas I also notice that americans self identify with their jobs a lot more. Their first questions are where are you from, what do you do etc. Americans will answer this question in terms of status and money, their job. If you take away the job they don't necessarily self identify as "doing" anything else because they don't answer this question with interests and hobbies.
> 
> Besides retirement there is a similar crisis with american soldiers who can no longer meet universality of service. Their job is often their life 24/7 and most of their community and without it they suddenly have to build an entire new life which can be catastrophic for some. For both these reasons I think it's important to figure out "what do you do?" outside of your work before you don't work.



"I've got a job- I explore..."

- Gord Downie, The Tragically Hip, "Looking For A Place To Happen".


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## marina628

james4beach said:


> Not sure it's anything that dramatic. Hard work is just tiring. I'd say that most of my peers feel the same way.
> 
> Remember, we're sitting at desks, mainly forced to look at computer screens all day. It's very rough on the eyes and the whole body (neck, back, etc).
> 
> The reason I know it's work related is that as soon as I'm working less, my energy bounces back tremendously.


What is your diet like ,heavy carbs and a office job will make you tired .I speak from experience here and think we all know the feeling how heavy meals give us the lazy feeling.You should get checked out though , my mom nearly died from under active thyroid 40 years ago and would explain your tireness.


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## fireseeker

Canadian Medical Forum, suddenly?


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## Big Kahuna

fireseeker said:


> Canadian Medical Forum, suddenly?


When you see some of the posts-Trump is the Devil-White Supremacists are lurking everywhere-Doug Ford will ruin us-Canada's biggest problem is Racism-it reads more like Canadian Communist Daily.


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## Longtimeago

humble_pie said:


> oh i don't think so
> 
> you're saying that your repertoire of interests froze when you retired 28 years ago? never again would there be anything new under the sun for you?
> 
> nay nay, tis impossible to believe. The www itself did not exist back in 1990. You wouldn't be so peppy today if the sun had set for yourself in 1990 .each:


Well first let me have a little fun with your writing humble_pie. You are saying that it is 'impossible to believe' that "I cannot think of anything.........". Really? You can't believe that I can't think of anything? On what evidence do you make that statement? Are you aware of instances where I have said I can't think of anything and then evidence has shown that I could think of something? LOL 

OK, on a more serious note. Actually humble_pie, I think I will stand by my statement even after further reflection. All of my current interests are the same or derived from the same interests as I have always had. Maybe thought the difference comes in how we think of the word 'develop' or the word 'interests'.

Some people have many interests at any point in their life, some have a few, some have none other than work and family. So what we are talking about when the topic is 'developing interests after retirement' can be interpreted as referring to someone with an existing interest 'developing' that interest even further or it could be about someone with no interests at all, 'developing' a new interest. It is the latter that I am saying I can't see happening very easily. 

I enjoy hiking and have since I was a young boy. Throughout my life that initial simple interest has led to the development of interests in areas like identifying plants, animals, birds, etc. Are they new interests or simply an expansion/development of the initial interest in hiking? Is being able to tell the difference between a white pine and a red pine based on the number of needles in a cluster, or the difference between a Blue Jay and a Scrub Jay, a new interest or simply all part of what someone interested in the outdoors does when they have the time available to do so? I don't think they are new interests, just expansions of an existing interest.

Now take the person with no interests to begin with. I can take them on a hike and what will happen? Will they suddenly turn into avid bird watchers? Probably not. Will they suddenly go out and buy all kinds of backpacking gear and start spending weeks backpacking through wilderness with only a map and compass? Probably not. Not unless there is at least a kernel of existing interest in the outdoors to begin with.

If you look around you, you will see plenty of retirees who are bored out of their minds because they have no interests and can't find any to fill their time. I see such people all the time. As m3s says, they identify themselves with their job, it's 'who they are' and when that is gone, there is no question that for some people it turns into a crisis in their life as they no longer see themselves as having any 'worth'.

When I still needed to work for a living, I would come home from a vacation and when someone asked, 'how was your vacation', my answer was always the same, 'too short'. I also used to refer to 'work' as 'what you do between vacations'. My focus in life was obviously not on what I did to earn a living, it was on what I did when I wasn't having to earn a living. How often have you perhaps heard someone say something like, 'I don't have time for a vacation'. That is a person who's self-worth and self-identity is wrapped up in their job, not in their life outside of their job. That is also a person who I think will have difficulty with retirement and what to do with themselves all day.

Not everyone is suited to retire early or even retire at all, that's just the way it is. I happened to be talking to a tow truck driver the other day who said to me he had no intention of retiring for as long as he could do the job. What a great future to look forward to, drive a tow truck till you drop dead 'in harness' as they say.


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## humble_pie

Longtimeago said:


> Well first let me have a little fun with your writing humble_pie. You are saying that it is 'impossible to believe' that "I cannot think of anything.........". Really? You can't believe that I can't think of anything? On what evidence do you make that statement? Are you aware of instances where I have said I can't think of anything and then evidence has shown that I could think of something? LOL
> 
> OK, on a more serious note. Actually humble_pie, I think I will stand by my statement even after further reflection. All of my current interests are the same or derived from the same interests as I have always had. Maybe thought the difference comes in how we think of the word 'develop' or the word 'interests'.
> 
> Some people have many interests at any point in their life, some have a few, some have none other than work and family. So what we are talking about when the topic is 'developing interests after retirement' can be interpreted as referring to someone with an existing interest 'developing' that interest even further or it could be about someone with no interests at all, 'developing' a new interest. It is the latter that I am saying I can't see happening very easily.
> 
> I enjoy hiking and have since I was a young boy. Throughout my life that initial simple interest has led to the development of interests in areas like identifying plants, animals, birds, etc. Are they new interests or simply an expansion/development of the initial interest in hiking? Is being able to tell the difference between a white pine and a red pine based on the number of needles in a cluster, or the difference between a Blue Jay and a Scrub Jay, a new interest or simply all part of what someone interested in the outdoors does when they have the time available to do so? I don't think they are new interests, just expansions of an existing interest.
> 
> Now take the person with no interests to begin with. I can take them on a hike and what will happen? Will they suddenly turn into avid bird watchers? Probably not. Will they suddenly go out and buy all kinds of backpacking gear and start spending weeks backpacking through wilderness with only a map and compass? Probably not. Not unless there is at least a kernel of existing interest in the outdoors to begin with.
> 
> If you look around you, you will see plenty of retirees who are bored out of their minds because they have no interests and can't find any to fill their time. I see such people all the time. As m3s says, they identify themselves with their job, it's 'who they are' and when that is gone, there is no question that for some people it turns into a crisis in their life as they no longer see themselves as having any 'worth'.
> 
> When I still needed to work for a living, I would come home from a vacation and when someone asked, 'how was your vacation', my answer was always the same, 'too short'. I also used to refer to 'work' as 'what you do between vacations'. My focus in life was obviously not on what I did to earn a living, it was on what I did when I wasn't having to earn a living. How often have you perhaps heard someone say something like, 'I don't have time for a vacation'. That is a person who's self-worth and self-identity is wrapped up in their job, not in their life outside of their job. That is also a person who I think will have difficulty with retirement and what to do with themselves all day.
> 
> Not everyone is suited to retire early or even retire at all, that's just the way it is. I happened to be talking to a tow truck driver the other day who said to me he had no intention of retiring for as long as he could do the job. What a great future to look forward to, drive a tow truck till you drop dead 'in harness' as they say.



i'm crazy about wild medicinal plants myself each:


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## peterk

fireseeker said:


> Canadian Medical Forum, suddenly?


Hey when the Canadian Medical Professional only wants to spend 5 minutes barely listening about your serious yet vague symptoms, as they all do, then we look for other answers elsewhere...



humble_pie said:


> i'm crazy about wild medicinal plants myself each:


That Tabacum supplement didn't help my ear pain / dizziness HP, but thanks for the suggestion regardless.


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## humble_pie

peterk said:


> That Tabacum supplement didn't help my ear pain / dizziness HP, but thanks for the suggestion regardless.



how are things going w the ear? as best i can recall, at the last update you were planning to try a physiotherapist? or was it yoga?

re the tabacum, sorry it had no effect. It's a homeopathic remedy, not a herbal remedy, but still within the huge general family of complementary therapies.

what i've found in my own limited experiece is that many herbal remedies have no effect, or else they work unpredictibly for some people but not for others. The thing is to make sure first that they are harmless, then keep trying em out, one after another, until finally one or 2 turn out to be helpful.

at least the tabacum should have been dirt cheap, $8 here for a year's supply


.


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## Longtimeago

peterk said:


> Hey when the Canadian Medical Professional only wants to spend 5 minutes barely listening about your serious yet vague symptoms, as they all do, then we look for other answers elsewhere...
> 
> 
> 
> That Tabacum supplement didn't help my ear pain / dizziness HP, but thanks for the suggestion regardless.


You know, it's fine to have whatever opinion you want about something but when you cross the line into suggesting that your opinion is a *fact*, then that is a step too far. 

On what evidence do you say, 'as they all do'? That is saying it is a fact, not an opinion. If it is a fact, then you should be able to back it up with documented, statistical evidence. My only personal evidence is my interactions with my GP. She does not spend 'only 5 minutes listening'. She spends as long as she needs to spend until both she and I are satisfied with the outcome/conclusions.

I would also ask you for an example of what a 'serious but vague symptom' is. I'm having difficulty understanding how something can be serious and yet vague at the same time. If it's vague, 'I feel tired sometimes', how do you conclude it is serious? Maybe the person just needs to get a good night's sleep or whatever. It doesn't necessarily indicate the person has hepatitis which would be serious.

I would suggest that written communication is not your strong suite.


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## Longtimeago

Trying to get back on topic, here is another aspect for those considering retiring abroad to think about.

Many people think of it as an 'end game'. That is, they look at it as though they have to find a place to move to and stay there for the rest of their life. When they take that view of it, it becomes a 'big deal' and introduces various 'fear of failure' thoughts. For example, 'if I get it wrong and have to move back home with my tail between my legs, all my friends and family will laugh at me', kind of thing.

I suggest instead that people looking at retiring abroad approach it withe the viewpoint of, 'this is something I plan to try for a while'. So friends and family(as well our yourself) are told, 'I think it might be fun to live in country X for a while. I'm going to go there and see how it goes. I may stay 2 weeks or I may stay 2 years, who knows.'

I personally once went to a place expecting to spend a week and ended up spending years there. At no point did I ever decide to stay, I just didn't get around to deciding to leave.

Moving to another country is no different than being a longer term visitor to that country in many ways. When does someone stop being a visitor and become a resident? Only when they start to think of themselves that way. I currently live in Canada again. I have no current plans to leave and go elsewhere but I also have no idea what might happen tomorrow. We might elect a Trump like Prime Minister in which case I might well decide to leave again.

Retirement is not the 'end' of anything, nor is it the 'beginning' of a new life which many refer to it as being. Both of those are really the same kind of thinking. Retirement is simply the beginning of a new chapter in life, not necessarily the last chapter.

So my advice for those looking at trying spending time in another country after they retire, to simply look at it as the *next* chapter. It has no time limits or boundaries beyond that. Taking that viewpoint removes all possibility of 'failing' or 'getting it wrong', etc.


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## humble_pie

Longtimeago said:


> You know, it's fine to have whatever opinion you want about something but when you cross the line into suggesting that your opinion is a *fact*, then that is a step too far.
> 
> On what evidence do you say, 'as they all do'? That is saying it is a fact, not an opinion. If it is a fact, then you should be able to back it up with documented, statistical evidence. My only personal evidence is my interactions with my GP. She does not spend 'only 5 minutes listening'. She spends as long as she needs to spend until both she and I are satisfied with the outcome/conclusions.
> 
> I would also ask you for an example of what a 'serious but vague symptom' is. I'm having difficulty understanding how something can be serious and yet vague at the same time. If it's vague, 'I feel tired sometimes', how do you conclude it is serious? Maybe the person just needs to get a good night's sleep or whatever. It doesn't necessarily indicate the person has hepatitis which would be serious.
> 
> I would suggest that written communication is not your strong suite.




my goodness, why so crabby today. I mean, you've only been a member here a few days but already you've tried to polish off very dear Mukhang Pera, one of the best legal beagles this forum ever hosted. There are a only a few such solicitors here. One can count them on the fingers of one hand. Their help in understanding the legal aspects of financial matters such as mortgages, real estate ownership, wills, divorce & common law wealth sharing is extraordinarily precious to all forummers. We actually can't afford to lose even one.

now you have set your hostile sights upon another longtie cmf forum member, for no reason whatsoever. This one is young, but he's talented, skilled, responsible, a hard worker who has built up an excellent career. He happens to have a mysterious chronic ailment that is atypical, ie organized western medicine has no easy diagnosis.

there are very many of these cases that fall between the cracks. I mean, it's lovely that your own GP is able to spend hours or even days hanging on the details of your medical ailments; but every MD i know is programmed to deal with each case in 15 minutes or less, including the time it takes for the doctor to write up the case notes.

given the pressures felt by doctors everywhere, atypical cases often get pushed aside, especially when - as here - the patient appears to function normally & is not massively impaired.

this young engineer has occasionally mentioned his chronic ailment in cmf forum & asked for suggestions. Folks here have sincerely tried to help him. He is modest & disciplined with his requests, has no self-pity, does not whine about his ailment in order to emotionally blackmail readers here as some parties do so noticeably in this forum, even has a sense of humour about his predicament.

imho he doesn't deserve the kind of harsh criticism you are meting out. Neither did mukhang pera. 

.


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## kcowan

I think many people view decisions as being lifelong. That slows down innovation in lifestyle. I see it all the time in the ER.org forum. People put themselves through the wringer on simple decisions like moving after retiring. No decision is final!


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## Longtimeago

humble_pie said:


> my goodness, why so crabby today. I mean, you've only been a member here a few days but already you've tried to polish off very dear Mukhang Pera, one of the best legal beagles this forum ever hosted. There are a only a few such solicitors here. One can count them on the fingers of one hand. Their help in understanding the legal aspects of financial matters such as mortgages, real estate ownership, wills, divorce & common law wealth sharing is extraordinarily precious to all forummers. We actually can't afford to lose even one.
> 
> now you have set your hostile sights upon another longtie cmf forum member, for no reason whatsoever. This one is young, but he's talented, skilled, responsible, a hard worker who has built up an excellent career. He happens to have a mysterious chronic ailment that is atypical, ie organized western medicine has no easy diagnosis.
> 
> there are very many of these cases that fall between the cracks. I mean, it's lovely that your own GP is able to spend hours or even days hanging on the details of your medical ailments; but every MD i know is programmed to deal with each case in 15 minutes or less, including the time it takes for the doctor to write up the case notes.
> 
> given the pressures felt by doctors everywhere, atypical cases often get pushed aside, especially when - as here - the patient appears to function normally & is not massively impaired.
> 
> this young engineer has occasionally mentioned his chronic ailment in cmf forum & asked for suggestions. Folks here have sincerely tried to help him. He is modest & disciplined with his requests, has no self-pity, does not whine about his ailment in order to emotionally blackmail readers here as some parties do so noticeably in this forum, even has a sense of humour about his predicament.
> 
> imho he doesn't deserve the kind of harsh criticism you are meting out. Neither did mukhang pera.
> 
> .


OK, peterk has my sympathy for his condition. Nevertheless, his comment re 'all doctors' is not acceptable to me and I've said so obviously. That peterk has a medical issue does not get him a pass on making insulting statements about the entire medical profession. At least not a pass from me. 

As for Mukhang Pera and lawyers, I have little time for any of them. As the 'joke' goes, 'what do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.' Mukhang Pera's knowledge as a lawyer does not give him any knowledge outside of the law. His attempts to foster his viewpoints outside of the law are what I took exception to and I will direct your attention to his specific reply to me on another thread when I asked him what his advice to the OP was. His reply was, "*My advice to the OP is to hang on your every word and pay no attention to me. You are the new wunderkind of cmf. I shall join the ranks of nos disparus."
*
Please tell me what respect I should accord him humble_pie after that response? 

Now I would like to get back to the topic of this thread which is retiring abroad.


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## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> I think many people view decisions as being lifelong. That slows down innovation in lifestyle. I see it all the time in the ER.org forum. People put themselves through the wringer on simple decisions like moving after retiring. No decision is final!


That's why I am bringing it up in this thread kcowan. If people looking at retiring abroad simply start from the viewpoint of just looking at what they are going to do 'next' rather than as a finale to their life, they can remove a lot of the stress in making a decision to try somewhere. 

Years ago, I used to do some rock climbing. Ropes, pitons, etc. Technical rock climbing as it is more properly called. When you do that, you quickly come to realize that everyone falls. It isn't a question of will you, only of when. But that is what the ropes and pitons, etc. are there for, to stop your fall and keep you from dying. 

Nevertheless, no matter how well you understand 'in theory' that the rope will stop your fall and you will not die, the fear is still there. Before you fall, there comes a split second when you KNOW you are going to fall. Trust me, you know it is coming. At that moment in time, if someone were to say to you, 'OK, make this decision and you will not fall', the fear of falling and dying will be stronger than the fear of any other decision you might be asked to make. So if the decision you are asked to make to stop you from falling was, 'will I get married, will I buy that house, will I quit my job, will I move to X', believe me, you could make that decision with no difficulty at all. The fear of dying trumps all other fears every time. It puts those supposedly, 'important' decisions in perspective. 

From that experience as a climber, I took the lesson of asking myself whenever I started to have difficulty with a decision, 'will it kill me'? If the answer to that was no, then the decision was not that hard to make.

Put in another way without having to have the climbing experience, there is the quote, "Don't sweat the small stuff.....and it's all small stuff" and the book.
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/164688-don-t-sweat-the-small-stuff

The climbing experience just happens to be my own way of having discovered that it's all small stuff.


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## humble_pie

Longtimeago said:


> Please tell me what respect I should accord him humble_pie after that response?



mukhang Pera is a retired person living abroad who keeps on working for pay because he's good at it

he dwells in a fairytale wild kingdom bursting with clouds, mountains, douglas firs, tides, oceans, sea-going wolves, oysters, prawns, wild blueberries, mushrooms, sea vegetables, old-growth timber & great white Spirit Bears

there are no doctors in the kingdom. MP never sees a doctor. His own father lived to be nearly 100. He was strong as an ox until the day he died, said MP, who appears to carry the same DNA.

the forum has only a small handful of truly glamourous persons like MP, let's hope he returns some day


.


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## ian

We take the same view to retirement as kcowan. We are living in the here and now. Our lifestyle and residence has changed several times since retirement. We have no doubt that it will change in the future. From our perspective change is healthy. We are as likely to remain in our current home as we are to pick up sticks and move somewhere else-either full time or part time in another country. Since retiring we have changed our lifestyle so that we can adapt to change.


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## Longtimeago

ian said:


> We take the same view to retirement as kcowan. We are living in the here and now. Our lifestyle and residence has changed several times since retirement. We have no doubt that it will change in the future. From our perspective change is healthy. We are as likely to remain in our current home as we are to pick up sticks and move somewhere else-either full time or part time in another country. Since retiring we have changed our lifestyle so that we can adapt to change.


A sensible approach Ian. Nothing is forever as they say.

I do find that as I age though I am becoming less able to adapt to change. I'd say that in the past I have been someone who tended to initiate and embrace change and fight against the 'status quo' in general.

But now I am finding that although I am still not adverse to change in theory, I just am not as able to cope with it and the key word there is 'cope'. For example, I have always travelled a great deal both for business and for pleasure. Now I find air travel to be much harder to cope with. Not just because things have got more difficult due to security etc. in airports but simply because in all senses of physical, emotional and psychological aspects, I have become less able to cope with 'hassles'. Before, I would not have even noticed them as 'hassles', now even small hiccups like having to stand in a line to go through passport control and seeing the behaviour of some people around me, is enough to cause stress even if I don't realize it is doing so. The same is true of changes of pretty much any kind I think.

That brings up another aspect of retiring abroad worth considering. If we become less able to cope with change as we grow older, then it is only reasonable to expect that coping with a change of country will become harder as we age. Just the point at which most people are looking at retiring abroad! As a result, it is only reasonable to expect that many will not be able to cope with the changes it brings.


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## AltaRed

I pretty much subscribe to these thoughts. It is one thing to work up a plan for 35 years of retirement making certain assumptions but it is irresponsible to imagine it will turn out that way IF you follow your desires and not be handicapped by an arbitrary 'freezing' of assumptions. 

When I first retired 12 years ago, I had to make certain assumptions for my retirement. None of those assumptions made then apply today. My current life is vastly different than assumed 12 years ago. I got divorced, I met a new lady, I moved provinces, and I overhauled my spending plan. I expect there will be further changes as I age.

As LTA above mentioned though, it gets harder to make changes. I find it much harder to travel multiple time zones now than I did 10 years ago, even though we only travel business class. When I was 40 years old, I would have not hesitated to consider living abroad, e.g. Costa Rica or whatever. I no longer have the desire to do that as I turn 70. I might snowbird for 2-3 months in various places but I wouldn't remotely consider owning property abroad any more.


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## ian

AltaRed...we feel exactly the same way.

Plus, the more we travel the more we appreciate what we have in Canada. It is truly special in so many ways.


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## Big Kahuna

Longtimeago said:


> A sensible approach Ian. Nothing is forever as they say.
> 
> I do find that as I age though I am becoming less able to adapt to change. I'd say that in the past I have been someone who tended to initiate and embrace change and fight against the 'status quo' in general.
> 
> But now I am finding that although I am still not adverse to change in theory, I just am not as able to cope with it and the key word there is 'cope'. For example, I have always travelled a great deal both for business and for pleasure. Now I find air travel to be much harder to cope with. Not just because things have got more difficult due to security etc. in airports but simply because in all senses of physical, emotional and psychological aspects, I have become less able to cope with 'hassles'. Before, I would not have even noticed them as 'hassles', now even small hiccups like having to stand in a line to go through passport control and seeing the behaviour of some people around me, is enough to cause stress even if I don't realize it is doing so. The same is true of changes of pretty much any kind I think.
> 
> That brings up another aspect of retiring abroad worth considering. If we become less able to cope with change as we grow older, then it is only reasonable to expect that coping with a change of country will become harder as we age. Just the point at which most people are looking at retiring abroad! As a result, it is only reasonable to expect that many will not be able to cope with the changes it brings.


You are mixing things up-your increasing lack of patience for hassles isn't the same as fear of change-they are two separate things. Yes if the country you move to has all sorts of hassles you won't like it-if it is easier than where you are now you will.


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## Longtimeago

Big Kahuna said:


> You are mixing things up-your increasing lack of patience for hassles isn't the same as fear of change-they are two separate things. Yes if the country you move to has all sorts of hassles you won't like it-if it is easier than where you are now you will.


Well yes and no as far as 'mixing things up' Big Kahuna. Change is just one of many different things that become harder to cope with as we age I believe. I gave an example of air travel, another example would be moving to country X and coping with the changes that would entail. I don't fear change any more than I ever did but that does me no good if I can't 'cope' with change any longer. I hope that clarifies the point for you.

Re whether another country will be easier than where you are now, it will always involve change and it is the coping with whatever those changes are, that may be a problem as we age.


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## Retireineurope

*OAS eligibility*

Great topic LTA
I have a question regarding the eligibility for the application process for OAS.

I am going to reside in Europe because it is just too darn expensive to live in Canada any more.
I read somewhere that to be eligible for OAS you would be required to reside in Canada for one year prior to applying. 
I will be 65 in 3 years time therefore I would have to live in Canada from 64 years old to 65 years old?

I will have 35 years in Canada at that point.


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## Longtimeago

Retireineurope said:


> Great topic LTA
> I have a question regarding the eligibility for the application process for OAS.
> 
> I am going to reside in Europe because it is just too darn expensive to live in Canada any more.
> I read somewhere that to be eligible for OAS you would be required to reside in Canada for one year prior to applying.
> I will be 65 in 3 years time therefore I would have to live in Canada from 64 years old to 65 years old?
> 
> I will have 35 years in Canada at that point.


I am not aware of a requirement that you live in Canada for the year before applying Retireineurope. You can apply from outside Canada. But I do not profess to be a professional OAS consultant so I would suggest stopping in at a Service Canada centre and asking an agent there the question. 
https://catalogue.servicecanada.gc.ca/content/EForms/en/Detail.html?Form=ISP3550

I would be careful about assuming it is cheaper to live in Europe than in Canada. That all depends on which country you are thinking of retiring in. There are many factors that have to be considered in terms of 'cost of living' in different countries. For example, if you have a low income and continue to live in Canada, that may mean you will qualify for GIS and free Provincial healthcare. You will lose any possibility of GIS if you leave Canada and may have to pay for healthcare (whether directly or in taxes) in another country. You may find that food is cheaper but buying a car is more expensive and gas is invariably more expensive in Europe than in Canada. Those are just a couple of simple examples.

A good site to start comparing places is Numbeo. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/cpi_explained.jsp It surveys real people in cities around the world to come up with the results. It compares many factors, not just cost of living. It looks at crime, heathcare, property prices, etc. It takes considerable research and INTERPRETING the information you can find, to figure out whether or not a country really is as good a choice as it may appear at first glance.

You may be surprised by what you find when comparing one place to another in various categories such as crime. You also have to factor in that some things will differ for an immigrant vs. a long term resident. Or there may be things you are not aware of that are a positive or negative factor. For example, any resident of Scotland over age 60 can get a free bus pass that allows them unlimited travel by bus all over Scotland. That's a nice senior's bonus we don't have in Canada. But in my personal opinion and that of my wife who spent her career in the NHS Scotland, the healthcare available does not compare in terms of 'customer service'. If my wife rates Canada's healthcare 'attitude' as superior to the UK, you can take that information to the bank as they say.

So I'm not saying don't look abroad but I am saying do your homework. Canada is not a bad place to retire compared to the rest of the world and it is not 'too darn expensive' by comparison either. There are a lot of factors to be considered and I get a bit cautious when I see someone mention just one factor like 'expensive'.


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## ian

There are no doubt many countries to retire that are less expensive than Canada. But this is a value proposition. There is another side to that equation and it depends on one's personal preferences, lifestyle choices, etc.

When we decide to buy something price is a factor, but we only shop for price on what we consider to be commodity products where service is not a particular consideration. 

We have visited many parts of the world that have a lower cost of living but there are few that we would consider retiring to. Our personal preferences and lifestyle requirements make the value proposition for many undesirable despite the lower costs and/or warmer climates.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Retireineurope notes they _will have 35 years in Canada at that point_. So I suspect they are returning to their home country where they understand costs, healthcare and crime, etc.

Added: Link to OAS app process & eligibity requirements


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## james4beach

ian said:


> AltaRed...we feel exactly the same way.
> 
> Plus, the more we travel the more we appreciate what we have in Canada. It is truly special in so many ways.


Same here. IMO the only downside is the cold weather.


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## ian

We decided it would be much easier if we traveled to warmer climates for 2-3 months a year. So this is what we have done since retiring. No plants, no pets, we can lock and leave anytime.


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## gibor365

> A good site to start comparing places is Numbeo. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/cpi_explained.jsp It surveys real people in cities around the world to come up with the results. It compares many factors, not just cost of living. It looks at crime, heathcare, property prices, etc. It takes considerable research and INTERPRETING the information you can find, to figure out whether or not a country really is as good a choice as it may appear at first glance.


I like numbeo. Honestly, i was surprised comparing some stats vs Mississauga (where I live). Look like opinion that we have low crime here is a myth . Crime in Mississauga is much higher (safety is lower) than (as an example) in Cartagena


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## milhouse

For us, it's a combination of loving Vancouver and keeping it simple for our plan to travel around/at most 6 months per year and escape a lot of the rainy, short days periods in town during the winter versus an extended retirement abroad.


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## Longtimeago

gibor365 said:


> I like numbeo. Honestly, i was surprised comparing some stats vs Mississauga (where I live). Look like opinion that we have low crime here is a myth . Crime in Mississauga is much higher (safety is lower) than (as an example) in Cartagena


Statistics require a lot of research before you hang your hat on them gibor365. For example, crime stats depend on how a country classifies crimes and how many are reported vs. not reported. Some countries may show lower crime rates than Mississauga but only because a high percentage of crimes are simply not reported or counted in the statistics perhaps. You have to look at a lot of other factors as well and in depth if you want to get a realistic picture of the reality. It's very easy for statistics to be scewed just like the sale of some high priced houses will skew the 'average' price of real estate for example.

In the case of crime according to Numbeo, we have to consider how Numbeo works. It does not start out with published criime statistics from Police departments. Those you have to look for elsewhere to compare. Numbeo is driven by information gathered from voluntary contributors. Obviously, the greater the number of contributors, the more reliable the information is likely to be. For Cartagena there have only been 13 contributors. In Mississauga the number of contributors is 145. Still not nearly enough to be reliable at all. You need additional sources of information such as what you see with your own eyes. The value of Numbeo is that it is information gathered from people who live there. Even Toronto only has 520 contributors out of a population of roughly 3 million. But they are 520 'eye witnesses' which makes what they are telling us worth listening too.

I have some personal factors that I use when it comes to crime. I look at windows and walls. What I mean is if homes have bars on the windows and walls around a property (including gated communities), particularly if they have barbed wire or broken glass on top of the walls as a norm, then that tells me I don't want to live in that place. If all the stores in the area have steel shutters that are pulled down over their storefront each night, I don't want to live in that area. The people who live and work in those areas are showing me what they expect/fear. I don't rely on statistics to tell me anything. I use statistics from places like Numbeo as one factor in looking at a place and I use my common sense as another factor. 

If I look at Hollywood, California residential streets and see a 'armed response' sign on almost every front lawn, I know I don't want to live there. If I see an entire street of shopfronts steel shuttered in an area of Manchester, England, I know I don't want to live there. If I see walls, barbed wire and steel gates 8 foot tall around houses in Cape Town, South Africa, I know I don't want to live there. If I walk down a street right next to St. Andrews University in Scotland and notice (as I did) that 9 out of 10 cars parked on the street had a lock bar on the steering wheel, I know I don't want to live there if I plan to own and drive a car. Of course if I don't plan to drive a car, that particular observation will not matter to me. If I see a street with multiple sidewalk cafes where the table and chairs are left out all night with no protection against theft, that's a good sign. If the tables and chairs are all stacked and chained down, that's a bad sign. 

The examples of car locks and chained chairs etc. are something that as a traveller, I have seen and commented on quite often. Usually the comment goes something like, 'look at that, if they did that back home, they would be gone in no time.' Think about all the cases of people having packages stolen from in front of their doors that we see on YouTube these days for example. Or the ones that amaze me, videos of people stealing plants and Xmas decorations from someone's front yard. But at the same time, we have to keep things in perspective. That someone steals a package or plant pot from in front of a house in Mississauga, doesn't mean we should rule out living there. 

No place is perfect and we have to weigh all the factors we can in assessing the suitability of somewhere as a place to retire. It will probably surprise some people to learn what the top 5 countries are in terms of reported 'burglary' for example. They are Denmark (1939 per 100k population); Netherlands (1889 per 100k); Austria (1675 per 100k); Saint Kitts and Nevis (1623 per 100k); and St, Vincent and the Grenadines (1617 per 100k). Canada comes in at number 23 out of a list of 108 found here: https://en.actualitix.com/country/wld/burglary.php

But again, this is reported crime, if you believe there was not one burglary committed in Jordan in 2008, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you. All statistics are subject to interpretation.


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## ian

gibor...there are many countries where people do not even bother reporting crimes since there is really no point. Their statistics are meaningless.

There are other countries who, should I say politely, have different approaches and standards when it comes to tabulating and reporting out crimes that are reported.


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## gibor365

> But again, this is reported crime, if you believe there was not one burglary committed in Jordan in 2008, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you. All statistics are subject to interpretation.


Why not?! All Jordanians are committing burglary in Europe


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## gibor365

ian said:


> gibor...there are many countries where people do not even bother reporting crimes since there is really no point. Their statistics are meaningless.
> 
> There are other countries who, should I say politely, have different approaches and standards when it comes to tabulating and reporting out crimes that are reported.


ian, numbeo doesn't work as per official statistics ,but , as LTA said " Numbeo is driven by information gathered from voluntary contributors." 
Points are given mostry as per "Worries" for different crimes. Those "Worries" are very different from country to country... 



> Obviously, the greater the number of contributors, the more reliable the information is likely to be. For Cartagena there have only been 13 contributors. In Mississauga the number of contributors is 145.


 True. However, I compared Mississauga crime stats with Beer Sheva (because I worked in police there, I know very well about crime levels there). Even though there are only 11 contributors, the stats looks pretty accurate. So, it also depends how honest contributors are


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## tdiddy

A number of people commenting on how "special" Canada is (and frequently read/hear similar sentiments elsewhere). Typically followed by discussions on good old US of A, along with some developing countries with low lost of living. 

What do you find so special about it, say versus living in New Zealand, Australia, or even UK, France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, northern Italy, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Austria? If I stay in Canada it will be because of familiarity, roots, exit tax implications haha, etc not because I think Canada is some utopian place that cannot be found elsewhere. Clearly we are one of the better countries to live by most overall metrics, and geographically it is beautiful, but I think we in general as Canadians are somewhat overly patriotic in this regard.


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## milhouse

I don't disagree but just to put in other terms:
I think an evaluation needs to start with some core freedoms/values/standards. Canada obviously checks many of the boxes as do a select number other countries (like the ones listed). But that only represents maybe 25 out of just under 200 countries. We seriously cannot take the freedoms/values/standards we enjoy in Canada for granted. Canada being in that 12% is already pretty special as is for these other countries. Beyond that, I think it come down to how personal preferences and values align with conditions. And if you grew up and lived most of your life in Canada, your preferences and values have obviously been shaped to align with Canadian culture and values.


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## Eclectic12

Longtimeago said:


> ... Many people think of it as an 'end game'. That is, they look at it as though they have to find a place to move to and stay there for the rest of their life. When they take that view of it, it becomes a 'big deal' and introduces various 'fear of failure' thoughts. For example, 'if I get it wrong and have to move back home with my tail between my legs, all my friends and family will laugh at me', kind of thing.
> 
> I suggest instead that people looking at retiring abroad approach it withe the viewpoint of, 'this is something I plan to try for a while'. So friends and family(as well our yourself) are told, 'I think it might be fun to live in country X for a while. I'm going to go there and see how it goes. I may stay 2 weeks or I may stay 2 years, who knows.'


Always good to get to know what's around as well as what one likes.




Longtimeago said:


> ... Moving to another country is no different than being a longer term visitor to that country in many ways. When does someone stop being a visitor and become a resident? Only when they start to think of themselves that way ...


When the country agrees ... sure. Many though have specific definitions as to when one stops being a visitor, becomes a resident and may have some tax implications.


Cheers


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## gibor365

tdiddy said:


> A number of people commenting on how "special" Canada is (and frequently read/hear similar sentiments elsewhere). Typically followed by discussions on good old US of A, along with some developing countries with low lost of living.
> 
> What do you find so special about it, say versus living in New Zealand, Australia, or even UK, France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, northern Italy, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Austria? If I stay in Canada it will be because of familiarity, roots, exit tax implications haha, etc not because I think Canada is some utopian place that cannot be found elsewhere. Clearly we are one of the better countries to live by most overall metrics, and geographically it is beautiful, but I think we in general as Canadians are somewhat overly patriotic in this regard.


Very true! Too many hussle to retire in other country and this is on both sides. 
For myself the easiest way to retire in warm country is go back to Israel . I'm citizen and if I return, I gonna get a lot of benefits.... for example


> Under current Israeli tax law, a new residents and Toshav Hozer Vatik are exempt from any Israeli tax liability on their non Israeli source income and gains derived in their first 10 years in Israel. In addition, a new residents and Toshav Hozer Vatik do not need to disclose their non Israeli source income and gains derived in their first 10 years in Israel.


The problem will be only on CRA side, they would do everything to to allow move my "tax home" away from Canada. 

P.S. Holy [email protected], just checked .... round trip from Tel Aviv to Rome is just .... $160CAD! To Athens $139! Can fly to watch some football, eat dinner and go back next day


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## Eclectic12

tdiddy said:


> ... What do you find so special about it, say *versus living in New Zealand, Australia, or even UK*, France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, northern Italy, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Austria?
> 
> If I *stay in Canada it will be because of familiarity, roots, exit tax implications * haha, etc not because I think Canada is some utopian place that cannot be found elsewhere ...


I'm surprised to see NZ, Australia and possibly the UK on the list of places to retire abroad.

Where one is concerned about the Canadian exit tax implications, the minimum asset/minimum investment/minimum income requirements for a limited time retirement visa that may not provide access to the national health care system is a double whammy that potentially rules out these countries.

Or to put it another way, some of the Canada like countries seem to be putting barriers to ensure retirees looking to relocate are of sufficient means. 


Cheers

Clearly we are one of the better countries to live by most overall metrics, and geographically it is beautiful, but I think we in general as Canadians are somewhat overly patriotic in this regard.[/QUOTE]


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## My Own Advisor

AltaRed said:


> I pretty much subscribe to these thoughts. It is one thing to work up a plan for 35 years of retirement making certain assumptions but it is irresponsible to imagine it will turn out that way IF you follow your desires and not be handicapped by an arbitrary 'freezing' of assumptions.
> 
> When I first retired 12 years ago, I had to make certain assumptions for my retirement. None of those assumptions made then apply today. My current life is vastly different than assumed 12 years ago. I got divorced, I met a new lady, I moved provinces, and I overhauled my spending plan. I expect there will be further changes as I age.
> 
> As LTA above mentioned though, it gets harder to make changes. I find it much harder to travel multiple time zones now than I did 10 years ago, even though we only travel business class. When I was 40 years old, I would have not hesitated to consider living abroad, e.g. Costa Rica or whatever. I no longer have the desire to do that as I turn 70. I might snowbird for 2-3 months in various places but I wouldn't remotely consider owning property abroad any more.


Very interesting and thanks for sharing AR. A good lesson for us younger folk.

I think your point about snowbirding for 2-3 months is also a good lesson. You (and other) CMFers that are rather well-to-do in retirement, think that renting long-term (multiple weeks), vs. owning abroad makes great sense, I think those aspiring to do the same can also take that lesson.

It seems to me there are higher risks, liabilities, associated with owning abroad vs. not. Ownership in one place is enough RE exposure for us, whether that is Ottawa where I live or anywhere else. 

Other than one season, we love Ottawa - spring, summer and fall are generally very nice and lots of things to do.


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## Longtimeago

I don't remember if I wrote much about the currency exchange factor in retiring abroad earlier in this thread. It doesn't hurt to mention it again.

For example, my wife has a UK State Pension. That pension is paid directly into our Canadian bank and taxed in Canada by choice. Given the current situation in the UK re Brexit, there is a very good chance that if there is no Brexit agreeement reached with the EU, the UK Pound will drop in value yet again. That will have a direct negative impact on our income obviously.

The same can happen when your income is derived in Canadian dollars and you move abroad or even Snowbird for winter. Anyone considering retiring or wintering abroad, has to (or certainly should) take that into account when looking at their numbers. There are a lot of people who have failed to do so and then discovered that their income was no longer sufficient to continue with what they had planned to do.

For that reason, you have to plan on a fairly hefty 'cushion' of income. For example, since moving to Canada in our 'retirement', we have seen the GBP to CAD vary by up to 25% in periods as short as 5 years. That can happen between any two countries currencies. So consider what that means. If you first looked at country X and determined that you could live very well on 100% of your income in retirement and made your move on that basis, what will happen when the 'buying power' of your income drops by 25%? That is a considerable amount of 'belt tightening' you will have to do and may mean that your retirement paradise is no longer a paradise at all for you.

So my advice is if someone is looking at another country, they need to be sure that a substantial swing in currency exchange will not impact their basic lifestyle if they make that move. That means you have to be able to say that if you only have 75% of your income, you believe you will still be happy there. A great example of those who didn't do that re Brits who retired to Spain, saw the GBP to Euro exchange going against them and their remaining buying power insufficient to support their lifestyle any more. They moved back to the UK in droves. They saw their buying power drop by up to 30%, their retirement homes that they had bought become nearly unsellable and certainly not at close to a break even price, etc. Here is an interesting article on the subject: http://www.expatfocus.com/spain-expatriatism-and-the-economic-crisis

Consider the affect that a similar scenario with a 30% swing in income buying power might have in popular Canadian retirement countries like Costa Rica, Panama, etc. Many Canadians retire to lower cost of living countries because they feel they will have a better lifestyle than they could afford to have in Canada. But that is only true as long as the exchange does not move against you. Those same people who make their move based *primarily* on a lower cost of living, are the people who are less likely to have a substantial cushion of income when they make the move. They say to themselves, 'I can live well on my $2k a month income in country X. Then they move to X and spend $2k per month and are perhaps happy. Right up until it will cost $2500 CAD per month to maintain that lifestyle and their income is still only $2k. Oops. Shoulda picked a country where they would only need $1500 per month and had a 33% cushion with their $2k per month income.

I'd also like to comment on the remarks about we Canadians perhaps being overly patriotic in thinking Canada is a good place to live and retire. I do not think you will find anyone who has lived in various countries of the world who thinks we are overly patriotic in terms of how good Canada is as a country to live in. That's something I think only Canadians who have not lived elsewhere would say.

I as a Canadian who has lived in half a dozen other countries, have returned to Canada. Why? Because I have concluded after experiencing life in various countries, that Canada really is one of the best countries in the world to be a retiree in. There is a difference between Googling for 'best country to retire abroad' and Googling for 'best country for a retiree to live in'. The first will get you links that are based primarily on 'cost of living', like this one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nextav...places-to-retire-abroad-in-2018/#2f06dfbd6c3e

The second will get you links like this one: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/comfortable-retirement-full-list That is a list of how a country is perceived by the rest of the world in terms of how the average retiree in that country lives. A very different thing indeed. Read the methodology used in that list and see what was measued and how Canada is seen from outside of Canada.

People in Canada complain about the government, the healthcare system, the taxes, the price of gas, the price of cellphone service compared to other countries, etc. etc. As did the people in every country I have spent significant amounts of time in. We are no different in that regard than anywhere else. But what I have found is that it is only when you go outside of your home country that you can actually gain a perspective of your home country relative to others. You can't see from inside, what others see from outside. When you are inside, you are only comparing what you have inside to what you wish you could have inside. Everyone is always going to wish they had more in whatever way, that's just human nature.

Another conclusion I came to after living in various countries and considering where I would want to spend my latter years in, is that I want to live in one of the highest cost of living countries that I can afford to live in, NOT the lowest cost countries I can afford to live in. Why? Because higher cost countries are higher cost for a reason, they provide more for the residents. Lower cost countries are lower cost for a reason, they provide less for the residents. You don't get the best healthcare in the lowest cost countries, it is found in the higher cost countries. The same is generally true of all other factors that matter and that are governable. ie. you can't govern the weather but you can govern how good the electric power system is in a country.

The only country I would like to live in and can't simply because of cost, is Switzerland. That would be my top pick for a country to be a retiree in, Canada is my second choice and is a country I can afford to be a retiree in. That's not patriotism, that's my experienced based choice of the overall best countries to be a retiree in. If you remove 'cost of living' as a factor and then look at the best places to be a retiree in, the list becomes entirely different from the typical 'best countries to retire abroad' list.


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## gibor365

> Because higher cost countries are higher cost for a reason, they provide more for the residents. Lower cost countries are lower cost for a reason, they provide less for the residents.


 Not always! It's like in stocks, some countries can be overvalued , some can be undervalued , exactly like in stock market you can find hidden gems . 
I , personally, most likely gonna retire in Canada (maybe Israel , but it won't abroad , but back home) and just taking long term vacations around the globe, unless my kids will move somewhere to Australia ....


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## tdiddy

Longtimeago said:


> I'd also like to comment on the remarks about we Canadians perhaps being overly patriotic in thinking Canada is a good place to live and retire. I do not think you will find anyone who has lived in various countries of the world who thinks we are overly patriotic in terms of how good Canada is as a country to live in. That's something I think only Canadians who have not lived elsewhere would say.


I would disagree. I know several people how have lived in Oceania and Canada and prefer the former. Canada is in the upper echelon of developed countries along with a dozen or so other countries. But within that group there are going to be personal preferences that set each apart (ie if you like hiking and skiing Switzerland followed by Canada is hard to argue, if you like hot weather and beach, not so much). I feel that Canadians have a somewhat lofty opinion of our country in this regard, but that is just my perspective I suppose. For me the biggest downsides are the quality of the cities, weather, distance from places I'd like to travel too frequently, caliber of food/culture


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## gibor365

> For me the biggest downsides are the quality of the cities, weather, distance from places I'd like to travel too frequently, caliber of food/culture


Same for us! Ontario is boring. AB and BC is too far and too expensive.... Good weather season is very limited.... Seriously, we wanted to go 3-4 times to AB/BC, but always changed the plans and went to Europe (Czech, Germany, France , last month Ireland)... cheaper and uncomparable food/culture


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## kcowan

gibor365 said:


> Same for us! Ontario is boring. AB and BC is too far and too expensive.... Good weather season is very limited.... Seriously, we wanted to go 3-4 times to AB/BC, but always changed the plans and went to Europe (Czech, Germany, France , last month Ireland)... cheaper and uncomparable food/culture


Have lived in 4 places in Ontario plus in BC and Alberta. The latter offer interesting living year round, while ON offers superb experiences for three seasons. I agree with Europe and spend one month a year there. Rich people who have choices such as Sharkman O'Leary and our own DanMar can afford to live anywhere and chose to maintain their places in Ontario for at least part-time occupancy.

I don't understand how Longtimeago draws his sweeping generalizations. He has not divulged where he has lived. Surely that would colour his perceptions.


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## Eder

I wouldn't discount Vancouver for caliber of food...If you haven't experienced Canadian Rockies near Banff ,Lake Louise,Jasper then you should do so. You won't be sorry you didn't go to Prague instead.


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## ian

We have no intention of emigrating. We do however get out of dodge in the winter. But we still enjoy coming back to Canada after two months even if it is still cold. This winter the decision was easy. Back to Thailand and Australia for two months.

We have lived in Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, and Calgary. We liked them all and enjoyed living in each during various stages if our lives. For different reasons of course. We like Europe as well but we would never consider moving to either Ontario, Quebec, or Euope at this point in our lives.


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## gibor365

Eder said:


> I wouldn't discount Vancouver for caliber of food...If you haven't experienced Canadian Rockies near Banff ,Lake Louise,Jasper then you should do so. You won't be sorry you didn't go to Prague instead.


We'll go some day  .Finally some discounted airlines started to operate from Hamilton (not to AB though). 
My wife has visited (job related) a lot of fanciest and most expensive restaurant in Toronto (sometimes he invites me as vendor are paying ), but still you cannot compare authentic European food with Toronto ones.... I think, it's not different in Vancouver. Actually, the best food in Canada , I had in Quebec city
I don't agree regarding Prague and Czech republic  Amazing places.... The best Jewish quarter in the World , castles like in Disney fairy tales ... and I don't think Swiss and German Alps is much worse than AB's ...

P.S. Needed to book some trip for March break ... so, going to Portugal .... nothing to do in March in Canada lol


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## nobleea

gibor365 said:


> Finally some discounted airlines started to operate from Hamilton (not to AB though).


Flair Air has been flying direct Edmonton/Hamilton for almost two years now. And also direct Calgary/Hamilton for some time. They're the lowest priced airline in Canada, often by a long shot.
Banff is too touristy. Jasper is more authentic. They are both expensive in the summer.


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## gibor365

nobleea said:


> Flair Air has been flying direct Edmonton/Hamilton for almost two years now. And also direct Calgary/Hamilton for some time. They're the lowest priced airline in Canada, often by a long shot.
> Banff is too touristy. Jasper is more authentic. They are both expensive in the summer.


I was checking Swoop, yes , they fly from Hamilton to Edmonton (but I forgot in Edmonton ), but not to Calgary. They expensive in summer, but this is the only season I wish to visit. There are also too little accommodations except Banff area


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## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> Have lived in 4 places in Ontario plus in BC and Alberta. The latter offer interesting living year round, while ON offers superb experiences for three seasons. I agree with Europe and spend one month a year there. Rich people who have choices such as Sharkman O'Leary and our own DanMar can afford to live anywhere and chose to maintain their places in Ontario for at least part-time occupancy.
> 
> I don't understand how Longtimeago draws his sweeping generalizations. He has not divulged where he has lived. Surely that would colour his perceptions.


I'm not sure what generalizations you are referring to kcowan, perhaps you would like to clarify. I can only guess you are referring to my comments re the 'overly patriotic' reference made here earlier and my comments re Canada as a place to retire and worthy of any seemingly 'patriotic' comments made that someone might confuse as being a 'perception' vs. a reality.

If you want to know where I have lived, here you go. Toronto, Calgary, Okanagan, small Southwestern Ontario town currently. Outside of Canada, California (interior desert area), France (south coast), Greece (Dodecanese island), Switzerland (small town), Scotland (small town). I could add Vancouver to that list if you will accept having spent every second week for 18 months there as qualifying for having 'lived' there. I certainly felt like I was living half my life there at that time. I have also visited various other countries for varying periods of time. My observations are based on all of my time spent in different countries interacting with local people. I do not do 'vacations' to a beach etc. I 'visit' a country to learn about the country and make a real effort to learn as much as I can.

Obviously, everyone's perceptions are coloured by where they have lived and visited. While I understand that 'perception' and 'reality' are two different words with two different meanings, I try to separate the two as much as I possibly can. But I think you have to also accept that people's perceptions are coloured by where they have *not* lived in the opposite way as well. What I mean is that if someone has never lived in any country but Canada, then their perceptions of how Canada compares to other countries as a place to retire is based on a total lack of any actual experience living anywhere else! They cannot compare anything based on their own actual experience!

There is nothing innately wrong with 'generalizations' as long as you realize they are generalizions, not a statement of 100% validity. For example, I think I can say that 'in general', Canadians are a pretty good country in terms of welcoming people of all race, religion and nationality. That does not mean there are no bigots in Canada at all, it just means there are fewer than you will find in some other countries. So as a place to retire in if you are not born in Canada, it would tick that box as a positive.

The same cannot be said however in my experience in many other countries and depending on your background. In some parts of France and Spain for example, being British will be a strike against you with the local population. In Scotland, as a Pole you will find many will not welcome you. In Norway, being a Turk is strike one against you. In Greece, being Albanian means being blamed for every crime committed. 

In 'general', I find most W. European countries don't like 'foreigners' living there. I put that down to those countries not having ever had any real amount of Immigration up until after WW2. They are therefore more insular in their culture and thinking. Contrast that to Canada which is a nation of immigrants and professes multiculturalism as a national ethos. Contrast that to the USA and the 'great melting pot' which wants everyone to become an 'American' first and acknowledge any family cultural background as a far second. 

Acceptance is another factor that people should be looking at when considering retiring abroad. We as Canadians 'generally' don't give much thought to that issue. Why would we? We are generally very accepting ourselves and it is foreign to our thinking to consider that others may not be. Consider for example that there are still only around 25 countries where same-sex marriages are legal. There are 72 countries in which it is criminalized and in 8 of those, subject to the death penalty! I use that as an example since it is easy to find information online on the subject. Take for example, Bali, Indonesia which is a popular vacation destination and retirement country for Australians, but only if you are *not* gay. 

Take a look at this article and the maps on where they advise gay Australian travellers to be aware of. https://www.news.com.au/travel/trav...d/news-story/13174b18ac11b3358f21b99ae74905cf

If you are a 'white anglo-saxon protestant' (WASP) in Canada, chances are you have never encountered any kind of prejudice in your life but it doesn't mean you won't if you decide to retire abroad. That can come as a big shock to some people. The most common prejudice that Canadians come across outside of Canada, is being mistaken for an American and there is a lot of prejudice against Americans in the world. I learned early on in my travels to be in the habit of finding a way to casually insert into coversation within the first few minutes of meeting a local, that I was Canadian and not American. Some people might be surprised to discover what a difference that sometimes meant to my acceptance.

Since my early retirement 28 years ago kcowan, I have moved around a lot. Sometimes moving on after periods as short as a week or two and sometimes staying for periods as long as 7 years. Those are the years on which I draw my 'generalizations. I hope that answer's your question.


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## ian

I can understand some countries not appreciating foreigners. Mainly the ones that don't adapt or expect everything to be as at home, ie the 'right' way.

We have been in places in souther Spain where we decided not to stay long. Why? Their trading areas were overrun with British style pubs, fish and chip shops, banners for UK football teams, U.K. Newspapers, UK beer, etc etc. 

We may as well have not been in Spain. So we pushed off to the next town. There are parts of Sorento that are the same. If I was a local I too might not like my town being transformed into a version of a foreign country.


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## tdiddy

Longtimeago said:


> The same cannot be said however in my experience in many other countries and depending on your background . In some parts of France and Spain for example, being British will be a strike against you with the local population. In Scotland, as a Pole you will find many will not welcome you. In Norway, being a Turk is strike one against you. In Greece, being Albanian means being blamed for every crime committed.


This is the 'patriotism' modern Canadian folklore if you will that I am referring to. Longtimeago is certainly not alone in these types of sentiments ((hastily identifying ourselves as Canadian rather than American is pretty classic too). Nor is it necessarily completely wrong. But we do tend to ignore our own blights. I'd think the discrimination that English face in Spain, or Poles faces in Scotland is nothing compared to what a first nations person may experience in the Canadian prairies. Canada is probably less racist than France, here's a study, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...t-countries/&usg=AOvVaw2xNUcfq3pkWhFzotM_SjTl

but I do not buy the (Liberal) mantra that we are head over heels above all other developed countries in the world because of our passion for multiculturalism, there are lots of bigots here too, they just tend to be less loud about it.


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## kcowan

Longtimeago said:


> Since my early retirement 28 years ago kcowan, I have moved around a lot. Sometimes moving on after periods as short as a week or two and sometimes staying for periods as long as 7 years. Those are the years on which I draw my 'generalizations. I hope that answers your question.


Yes thanks LTA. That is exactly what I was needed to "place" your opinions.


ian said:


> We have been in places in southern Spain where we decided not to stay long. Why? Their trading areas were overrun with British style pubs, fish and chip shops, banners for UK football teams, U.K. Newspapers, UK beer, etc etc.
> 
> We may as well have not been in Spain. So we pushed off to the next town. There are parts of Sorento that are the same. If I was a local I too might not like my town being transformed into a version of a foreign country.


Our friends from Monterey CA lived in Antequera for exactly that reason. In fact, they encountered many Brits who relocated from the coast to avoid their countrymen on the coast.


tdiddy said:


> ...but I do not buy the (Liberal) mantra that we are head over heels above all other developed countries in the world because of our passion for multiculturalism, there are lots of bigots here too, they just tend to be less loud about it.


Yes I think you will find that many seem more liberal because they have never experienced other races living cheek by jowl. MIL lived in Richmond and golfed nearby. Eventually all her friends died and she would get introduced to a threesome of Chinese to golf. They spoke Chinese and she felt isolated. So she gave up golfing.

In our neighborhood, there are Iranians, and they are lovely people. We really enjoy their local markets too. But the Chinese ignore us, probably because of the language.

(Ironically, in Mexico where we snowbird, there are predominantly Mexicans and WASPs. Many French from Canada and France. No Oriental nor black. Lots of Gays et al though.)


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## indexxx

ian said:


> I can understand some countries not appreciating foreigners. Mainly the ones that don't adapt or expect everything to be as at home, ie the 'right' way.
> 
> We have been in places in souther Spain where we decided not to stay long. Why? Their trading areas were overrun with British style pubs, fish and chip shops, banners for UK football teams, U.K. Newspapers, UK beer, etc etc.
> 
> We may as well have not been in Spain. So we pushed off to the next town. There are parts of Sorento that are the same. If I was a local I too might not like my town being transformed into a version of a foreign country.


I agree. When I lived in the Cayman Islands, there were so many hosers living there I might as well have stayed in Canada.


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## ian

We have friends who have lived in Panama for many years. They avoid the expat community.


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## Longtimeago

tdiddy said:


> This is the 'patriotism' modern Canadian folklore if you will that I am referring to. Longtimeago is certainly not alone in these types of sentiments ((hastily identifying ourselves as Canadian rather than American is pretty classic too). Nor is it necessarily completely wrong. But we do tend to ignore our own blights. I'd think the discrimination that English face in Spain, or Poles faces in Scotland is nothing compared to what a first nations person may experience in the Canadian prairies. Canada is probably less racist than France, here's a study, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...t-countries/&usg=AOvVaw2xNUcfq3pkWhFzotM_SjTl
> 
> but I do not buy the (Liberal) mantra that we are head over heels above all other developed countries in the world because of our passion for multiculturalism, there are lots of bigots here too, they just tend to be less loud about it.


And on what *personal experience* of living in other countries do you base your opinion tdiddy?


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## Eder

gibor365 said:


> I was checking Swoop, yes , they fly from Hamilton to Edmonton (but I forgot in Edmonton ), but not to Calgary. They expensive in summer, but this is the only season I wish to visit. There are also too little accommodations except Banff area


The way many tourists experience Banff , Jasper,Waterton,Kannanaskis Parks is to rent a rv to tour all of it over a couple of weeks. Camp sites are everywhere. Who wants to stay in a hotel? Most tourists just wander around Banff Ave buying useless t shirts while pristine wilderness trails are only a mile away & empty. If you need castles then tour Castle Mountain...you can camp there as well.


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## tdiddy

Longtimeago said:


> And on what *personal experience* of living in other countries do you base your opinion tdiddy?


I've lived in Quebec if that counts 

I grew up in the prairies, moved to Montreal, now Vancouver. I've had extended stays with work in Toronto and Sydney, and traveled a fair bit. In my profession moving abroad is not particularly realistic (aside from USA) -- part of the reason I would like to spend a great deal of my retirement outside Canada.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Family is not a consideration to us retiring and moving abroad because:
i. We don't have any family (children, grchildren, parents, siblings,etc.)
ii. We have family but don't have much to do with them
ii. We have family but seeing them once or twice a year is enough and travel can be afforded 
iv. We have family and see them lots because we can afford to 
v. We have family but visiting 'virtually' is sufficient (with skype, etc.)

Any other scenarios?


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## gibor365

Eder said:


> The way many tourists experience Banff , Jasper,Waterton,Kannanaskis Parks is to rent a rv to tour all of it over a couple of weeks. Camp sites are everywhere. Who wants to stay in a hotel? Most tourists just wander around Banff Ave buying useless t shirts while pristine wilderness trails are only a mile away & empty. If you need castles then tour Castle Mountain...you can camp there as well.


In Europe, we usually rent apartments on booking.com or airbnb.com. (just this week rented apartment in Alto Barrio, Lisbon). Camp sites?! No, thanks. I did it when i was in my 30's. Now I want some comfort. 
Eder, I respect your opinion, but NA Castles vs European, it's like to compare House League vs NHL


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## kcowan

Eder said:


> The way many tourists experience Banff , Jasper,Waterton,Kannanaskis Parks is to rent a rv to tour all of it over a couple of weeks. Camp sites are everywhere. Who wants to stay in a hotel? Most tourists just wander around Banff Ave buying useless t shirts while pristine wilderness trails are only a mile away & empty...


Another vote for mobile accomodations. When in-laws from Scarborough came to visit us in Edmonton, we rented a motor home and took them to Drumheller, Waterton, Crows Nest, Fairmont, Radium, Lake Louise, Icefields, Jasper and home. This was the only way they would see all those places. Weather cooperated in October. It was worth taking the kids out of school. 

At Waterton, the campsite was full of Elk. They were sniffing around the motorhome. They disappeared when we went outside.


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## Longtimeago

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Family is not a consideration to us retiring and moving abroad because:
> i. We don't have any family (children, grchildren, parents, siblings,etc.)
> ii. We have family but don't have much to do with them
> ii. We have family but seeing them once or twice a year is enough and travel can be afforded
> iv. We have family and see them lots because we can afford to
> v. We have family but visiting 'virtually' is sufficient (with skype, etc.)
> 
> Any other scenarios?


The effect of family on someone's decision of whether to retire abroad or not usually doesn't really come up OnlyMyOpinion. Those for whom family is a major concern generally don't even *consider* retiring abroad. They are much more likely to only get as far as Snowbirding. If asked, 'would you consider retiring abroad', the answer is most likely to be, 'we could never do that'. It's like a brick wall. The idea is dead before it even gets started, so that is a scenario you could add I suppose. ie. We have family and so could not even consider retiring abroad.


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## Longtimeago

gibor365 said:


> In Europe, we usually rent apartments on booking.com or airbnb.com. (just this week rented apartment in Alto Barrio, Lisbon). Camp sites?! No, thanks. I did it when i was in my 30's. Now I want some comfort.
> Eder, I respect your opinion, but NA Castles vs European, it's like to compare House League vs NHL


Do you understand what Airbnb is doing to places like Lisbon in terms of making housing for locals unobtainable?
https://www.euronews.com/2017/09/19/lisbon-s-tourism-magnet-is-kicking-out-local-residents

If you are renting space in someone's primary residence (a B&B) you harm no one. If you are renting the entire apartment, you are contributing to the harm of local renters.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Longtimeago said:


> The effect of family on someone's decision of whether to retire abroad or not usually doesn't really come up OnlyMyOpinion. Those for whom family is a major concern generally don't even *consider* retiring abroad. They are much more likely to only get as far as Snowbirding. If asked, 'would you consider retiring abroad', the answer is most likely to be, 'we could never do that'. It's like a brick wall. The idea is dead before it even gets started, so that is a scenario you could add I suppose. ie. We have family and so could not even consider retiring abroad.


Thanks, good point:
1. Family is a consideration so we won't move & retire abroad
2. Family is not a consideration because i, ii, iii...


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## gibor365

Longtimeago said:


> Do you understand what Airbnb is doing to places like Lisbon in terms of making housing for locals unobtainable?
> https://www.euronews.com/2017/09/19/lisbon-s-tourism-magnet-is-kicking-out-local-residents
> 
> If you are renting space in someone's primary residence (a B&B) you harm no one. If you are renting the entire apartment, you are contributing to the harm of local renters.


I rented in Lisbon whole apartment at Bairro Alto via booking.com. This is small company that rents apartments in Lisbon and Porto for many years. And it's not my responsibility to protect local renters. They have government that should protect them. If somebody cannot afford living in downtown, they can move to suburbs. We have similar situation here , in Toronto.


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## gibor365

btw, I rented 2 bedroom apartment in Lisbon centre for 65EUP/day, very cheap comparing to Ireland


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## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> In Europe, we usually rent apartments on booking.com or airbnb.com. (just this week rented apartment in Alto Barrio, Lisbon). Camp sites?! No, thanks. I did it when i was in my 30's. Now I want some comfort.
> Eder, I respect your opinion, but NA Castles vs European, it's like to compare House League vs NHL


I have to agree with Gibor. I have been to castles in Europe and live close to the Rockies. Though I love my rockie mountains and they are beautiful, and the castles Europe are amazing. The ones in Banff are different but not comparable. I still agree that everyone Canadian should see the Banff and Jasper as Eder described.


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## gibor365

> I still agree that everyone Canadian should see the Banff and Jasper as Eder described.


 Sure! Some day! When Swoops start flying to Alberta


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## Longtimeago

gibor365 said:


> And it's not my responsibility to protect local renters. They have government that should protect them.


So by your logic, no one is responsible for their own actions, the government is responsible for protecting everyone from everyone else's actions. Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your own actions? By your logic, if I get drunk, get in my car and cause an accident, it's the government's fault for letting me drive the car. 

It's very convenient to blame someone else isn't it. Especially when you get what you consider a bargain price. Greed trumps decency every time. Never mind if a single mother with 2 children was evicted from the apartment you rent, that's her problem and it's not your fault. Everything is someone else's fault.


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## gibor365

Longtimeago said:


> So by your logic, no one is responsible for their own actions, the government is responsible for protecting everyone from everyone else's actions. Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your own actions? By your logic, if I get drunk, get in my car and cause an accident, it's the government's fault for letting me drive the car.
> 
> It's very convenient to blame someone else isn't it. Especially when you get what you consider a bargain price. Greed trumps decency every time. Never mind if a single mother with 2 children was evicted from the apartment you rent, that's her problem and it's not your fault. Everything is someone else's fault.


If single mother with 2 children cannot afford live in downtown Lisbon, she should move to suburbs .... Same in every country... Do you know many single moms with kids who are renting in downtown Toronto?! It's nothing to do with AirBnb or booking.com
And why you don't consider other options?! Single mom with kids or seniors own apartment in downtown Lisbon. They list it on AirBNB and rent another apartment in suburbs that is much cheaper. Thus they can earn nice money. Or somebody can take mortgage , buy apartment and list it ... Also, Lisbon or any order popular city has nice income from Airbnb and booking.com as owners are paying taxes and tourists are paying taxes.... and this money go to help single moms and others


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## Eder

Plugging Along said:


> I have to agree with Gibor. I have been to castles in Europe and live close to the Rockies. Though I love my rockie mountains and they are beautiful, and the castles Europe are amazing. The ones in Banff are different but not comparable. I still agree that everyone Canadian should see the Banff and Jasper as Eder described.


I don't think you guys caught my play on words...the castles nature made surpass any made by man imo...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Mountain


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## gibor365

Eder said:


> I don't think you guys caught my play on words...the castles nature made surpass any made by man imo...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Mountain


OIC 

but my point was that Europe has both...
Mount Pilatus (where we took funicular) is not less beatifull
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Pilatus_seen_from_Stanserhorn_funicular.jpg

and when you are getting down, you are in beautiful Lucerne and not in ....... Calgary


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## indexxx

Longtimeago said:


> Do you understand what Airbnb is doing to places like Lisbon in terms of making housing for locals unobtainable?
> https://www.euronews.com/2017/09/19/lisbon-s-tourism-magnet-is-kicking-out-local-residents
> 
> If you are renting space in someone's primary residence (a B&B) you harm no one. If you are renting the entire apartment, you are contributing to the harm of local renters.


Just read that linked article. I support the idea of a cap on the number of nights an apartment can be used as an Air B&B. It's kind of similar to the situation here in Vancouver, where we have hundreds of empty condos that were bought just for investment speculation by offshore buyers with no intent to live in them; it's part of the reason real estate has moved out of the reach of the majority of people here. Local, Canadian citizens can't afford to live in their home city because of unfettered greed.


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## kcowan

People who live here:


> a 549 square feet unit at Kingswood Villas in the northwestern New Territories district of Tin Shui Wai sold for HK$6.2 million, the highest price for a unit of that size on the estate, said Many Wells Property Agents, which focuses on brokering flats in the New Territories.


think that getting an oceanview apartment with 1200 sq.ft. in Vancouver for that price is a bargain (as long as they continue to go up).
Price example


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## the_apprentice

To begin with, Lisbon has been inexpensive for years. Now that rent control has been abolished, homes are now starting to reflect a more 'realistic' value. Landlords were receiving 20 Euros/month for suites that were grandfathered. It's no wonder the buildings looked as if they were neglected, the renters were profiting off of the landlord! For too many years the landlord has been punished, now the roles are starting to reverse. This happens all around the globe and it's unfortunate because it can 'destroy' cities. However, that is the reality and things will have to change because EVERYONE is using their homes for airBNB. A permit is required to list your home as a short-term rental, however it may not be enough at this point.

If you can't afford a location, you'll have to move to the suburbs as gibor mentioned. Tourists have helped Portugal's economy, unfortunately real estate has been affected in a negative way. You win some, you lose some.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Sounds like landlords are taking advantage of housing demand created by growing numbers of tourists in Lisbon/Portugal. In addition, the tax they pay is cheaper renting through airbnb than renting to a local. Dollar signs wandering the streets. Pitchforks being sharpened.
Lisbon landlords evict local residents in favour of tourism 
And: Rather than rent out their properties on a long-term basis, landlords in Lisbon decided it would be much more profitable to rent them on Airbnb instead.

In comments:
_Tourism is very good and brings money to the country, but at the same time is destroying Lisbon and Porto...
It's an harsh reality for portuguese people, who in their majority earn less than 700€, but the landlords keep asking more than they earn. Tourist who stays at a local hosting. It's your fault. You suck. A family should live there._


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## m3s

Yes airbnb is the root of all evil to blame for tourism

Let's all ignore that beach front resorts and hotels are built where fishing villages and locals existed before disaster capitalists showed up

And many places spend a small fortune trying to attract tourism to their region


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## OnlyMyOpinion

m3s said:


> ...Let's all ignore that beach front resorts and hotels are built where fishing villages and locals existed before disaster capitalists showed up...


I think they typically locate and build along the coast, not 'built where villages' existed before. They are new beds, not displacing local beds. But they employ local cooks, groundskeepers, maintenance, housekeepers, etc. That's probably a bad thing... Ok, I'm convinced, let the airbnb's located in the village drive the resorts and hotels out of business. Besides, there appear to be a lot of cheap Canadian tourists demanding it.


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## m3s

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I think they typically locate and build along the coast, not 'built where villages' existed before.


Think again

It's known and documented that beach resorts displace coastal villages.. long before airbnb. People tend to live in good locations and that's where tourists want to be

Typically this happens following natural disasters masked as "rebuilding" investment


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## gibor365

> If you can't afford a location, you'll have to move to the suburbs as gibor mentioned. Tourists have helped Portugal's economy, unfortunately real estate has been affected in a negative way. You win some, you lose some.


and I don't see any problem here. Cannot afford to live in downtown Lisbon, move to suburbs. Transportation there is cheap and efficients, their metro it's not Toronto subway joke . We'd also prefer to live in downtown Toronto, but it's too expensive for us , even though our household income more than 200K.
And look from other side, in August we spent 6.5K for travelling 8 days in Ireland.... tourism is a huge income for European countries


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## Plugging Along

..


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## gibor365

> before disaster capitalists showed up


 funny that you mentioned capitalism . just checked AirBNB - a lot of vacation rentals in communist Cuba  ... prices are similar to ....Portugal  , average like $60-80 CDN per night and average salary in Cuba is $30 per months LOL


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## humble_pie

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I think they [beachfront resorts and hotels] typically locate and build along the coast, not 'built where villages' existed before. They are new beds, not displacing local beds. But they employ local cooks, groundskeepers, maintenance, housekeepers, etc.




this is the problem with tourism as a major prop to a country's economy. Or a region's economy. It's teaching & training locals to become servants in their own land.

local people - the former fishermen - don't get to benefit from advanced training, technology transfer or the buildout of an autonomous sustainable economy. Instead they become dependent on the whims & tastes of foreigners for certain kinds of restaurants, bars, sceneries, views, beaches, castles, vineyards or mountain vistas.

the above is putting it in stark terms, although the problem has been around for hundreds of years. Imperialists voyaged to colonies to extract dirt cheap resources, commodities, food products from the locals, who happened to own the resources in the first place. Conquistadors voyaged to the new world to extract gold, silver, oil & lumber from natives who had lived upon the land for millennia. In the 20th century, it was the liberation RC priests who defied their Pope & started to change all that.

.


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## Longtimeago

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Sounds like landlords are taking advantage of housing demand created by growing numbers of tourists in Lisbon/Portugal. In addition, the tax they pay is cheaper renting through airbnb than renting to a local. Dollar signs wandering the streets. Pitchforks being sharpened.
> Lisbon landlords evict local residents in favour of tourism
> And: Rather than rent out their properties on a long-term basis, landlords in Lisbon decided it would be much more profitable to rent them on Airbnb instead.
> 
> In comments:
> _Tourism is very good and brings money to the country, but at the same time is destroying Lisbon and Porto...
> It's an harsh reality for portuguese people, who in their majority earn less than 700€, but the landlords keep asking more than they earn. Tourist who stays at a local hosting. It's your fault. You suck. A family should live there._


Unfortunately, there are lots of tourists who don't care if locals are displaced and quite happy to say, 'if you can't afford to live in the city, move to the suburbs.' Of course they don't consider just how someone is supposed to do that if their job is in the city and they will then have to pay for transportation to get to their job. When people are living from pay cheque to pay cheque with very little disposable income left over at the end of the week, a tourist telling them, 'move to the suburbs if your landlord evicts you so I can pay to stay by the night', isn't likely to find a very sympathetic listener. But hey, the tourist doesn't care about anyone else's problems, they just want what for them is a cheap place to stay on vacation.


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## indexxx

Longtimeago said:


> Unfortunately, there are lots of tourists who don't care if locals are displaced and quite happy to say, 'if you can't afford to live in the city, move to the suburbs.' Of course they don't consider just how someone is supposed to do that if their job is in the city and they will then have to pay for transportation to get to their job. When people are living from pay cheque to pay cheque with very little disposable income left over at the end of the week, a tourist telling them, 'move to the suburbs if your landlord evicts you so I can pay to stay by the night', isn't likely to find a very sympathetic listener. But hey, the tourist doesn't care about anyone else's problems, they just want what for them is a cheap place to stay on vacation.


For a related reason, I will never stay in an all-inclusive again. In 2007, I was backpacking around Europe for nine months, and decided to take a mini 'vacation' in the middle of my long and challenging trip. I was in Budapest and decided to go to Turkey to relax at a beach resort for a couple of weeks; I booked a flight and an all-inclusive and headed down. It was a decent place, good location in Alanya, but one night I was exploring the town and decided to eat at a local restaurant. It was right in the middle of town, good location, with a big patio with a great view. This was about 7:00 on a warm summer night, height of tourist season, but I was the ONLY one in the place. The food was absolutely incredible; fresh seafood, huge portions, great local dishes. And amazing value. Anyone who's had good Turkish will know what I mean. I started talking to the owner, saying I couldn't believe he wasn't packed, and he told me that ever since the all-inclusives started opening, he was barely able to earn a living. Great guy, superb restaurant. I hope he's still operating.

Everyone hung around the resort all day and gorged themselves on the mediocre hotel food instead of exploring the region. They were vacationing cheaply, but living poorly. And devastating the area they had come to see.


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## tdiddy

Longtimeago said:


> Unfortunately, there are lots of tourists who don't care if locals are displaced and quite happy to say, 'if you can't afford to live in the city, move to the suburbs.' Of course they don't consider just how someone is supposed to do that if their job is in the city and they will then have to pay for transportation to get to their job. When people are living from pay cheque to pay cheque with very little disposable income left over at the end of the week, a tourist telling them, 'move to the suburbs if your landlord evicts you so I can pay to stay by the night', isn't likely to find a very sympathetic listener. But hey, the tourist doesn't care about anyone else's problems, they just want what for them is a cheap place to stay on vacation.


You could look at almost every decision a consumer makes in the same ethical light, however in general market forces tend to drive our economy for better or worse. While I agree the displacement of renters is unfortunate. I think its a more convoluted issue than just vilifying the traveler looking to save some money. I typically stay in hotels myself, as I find the check-in check out process to be tedious with Airbnb, but for families on a budget the savings can be substantial. AirBnB may make a holiday that they couldn't do now affordable. That is extra money in Portgual's economy. 

Gentrification in general is a complex topic, with negative and positive aspects. For example closer to home in Vancouver I am very skeptical of the anti-gentrification movement and the risk of destroying the downtown east side "community". As is tourism, in general, even sustainable tourism is still not very sustainable.

The other aspect is that if its not AirBnB, what happens instead, a hotel chain buys the apartment, tears it down builds a big hotel? AirBnB claims to have significantly less environmental impact in terms of water use/waste etc.


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## kcowan

Longtimeago said:


> But hey, the tourist doesn't care about anyone else's problems, they just want what for them is a cheap place to stay on vacation.


I think you are misplacing the blame. It is the owners of the airbnb property that are to blame, and behind them the local politicians who fail to deal with the free-wheeling nature of airbnb in their towns.

(It is similar in Florida where property managers are supposed to withhold 30% of rentals to pay tax liability to the state. If they don't the renter can be charged. So not only having rules but also ensuring enforcement.)


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## gibor365

Longtimeago said:


> Unfortunately, there are lots of tourists who don't care if locals are displaced and quite happy to say, 'if you can't afford to live in the city, move to the suburbs.' Of course they don't consider just how someone is supposed to do that if their job is in the city and they will then have to pay for transportation to get to their job. When people are living from pay cheque to pay cheque with very little disposable income left over at the end of the week, a tourist telling them, 'move to the suburbs if your landlord evicts you so I can pay to stay by the night', isn't likely to find a very sympathetic listener. But hey, the tourist doesn't care about anyone else's problems, they just want what for them is a cheap place to stay on vacation.


We live in Toronto suburbs and my wife spends more than 1 hour one way .... and she works on average 12-15 hours per day .... so, if some of the single moms works for minimum wage, there is no any reason to live in downtown of Lisbon or toronto and to complain. In European big cities transportation is much faster, better and cheaper than in Toronto.
As I said, even communist Cuba has a lot of listings on airBNB, so what is your proposal?!


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## m3s

tdiddy said:


> The other aspect is that if its not AirBnB, what happens instead, a hotel chain buys the apartment, tears it down builds a big hotel? AirBnB claims to have significantly less environmental impact in terms of water use/waste etc.


Yes. I can think of hidden gem small towns that started out with backpackers renting rooms and B&B direct from families and buying food from street vendors and local restaurants. The cultural impact was there but it was minimal compared to what eventually happened with mainstream tourism. Outside investors built riverside hotels, restaurants, displacing the locals, digging huge quarries into the landscape for development. The locals become cheap labour to foreign investment, the culture is replaced by souvenir shops and tourist traps. It's no longer a hidden gem at all. I'd rather see airbnb because the money goes direct to locals and the cultural impact is much less



kcowan said:


> I think you are misplacing the blame. It is the owners of the airbnb property that are to blame, and behind them the local politicians who fail to deal with the free-wheeling nature of airbnb in their towns.
> 
> (It is similar in Florida where property managers are supposed to withhold 30% of rentals to pay tax liability to the state. If they don't the renter can be charged. So not only having rules but also ensuring enforcement.)


Yes. If someone lists something stolen on kijiji do you call kijiji in cyberland or do you call the local authorities? The issue is between the airbnb host, the landlord if applicable, and whatever local authority manages these housing regulations in the area. If kijiji and airbnb took responsibility to vet every single listing around the world they would need far more employees and their cost would skyrocket. Airbnb is a global listing site not experts on the various local laws and regulations. That is what the local authorities are for. There is obviously some growing pain as they adjust to modern technology


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## gibor365

except airbnb and kijiji , there are bunch of other websites booking.com, home-away, for France we booked apartment via 3rd party US site "apartments in Paris", in Loire valley we booked house via official France tourism website (gites something ... don't remember), also there are many local renting websites, for example http://www.eyeonspain.com/ - long term rentals in Spain.... go fight with them


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## kcowan

I said


> It is the owners of the airbnb property that are to blame


and you said


m3s said:


> The issue is between the airbnb host, the landlord if applicable, and whatever local authority manages these housing regulations in the area.


So there is nothing more to discuss as we are in agreement.

airbnb removed 2400 listings in Vancouver because they did not have their permit number displayed. airbnb does not check whether the permit is valid. That is up to the local authorities who issue them.


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## kcowan

gibor365 said:


> also there are many local renting websites, for example http://www.eyeonspain.com/ - long term rentals in Spain.... go fight with them


Yes we often used veneer.com before the site was gutted following the success of airbnb. We also had to report an airbnb listing in Berlin that they subsequently removed as fraudulent. But we got an excellent rental via airbnb. After we checked in, the landlord advised us to mention we were her cousins in case the HOA found out. So there are lots of rules not being followed.


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## ian

Alberta will reimburse your for out of country?? Oh sure.

My spouse broke her back in Kuala Lumpur several years ago. Great care. First was Xrays. Then a consult. Then an MRI, then another consult with a specialist. Full written report, CD of MRI, prescription drugs for one week, and the xrays were given to us. Half day hospital stay. Total cost $850 Canadian.

Had to submit to Alberta Heath Care before our insurer would pay. Eight weeks later we got a cheque from ALberta Health. They paid the princely sum of $50. Our private insurer paid the balance of the claim directly into our bank account within five working days of the claim submission.


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## Longtimeago

indexxx said:


> For a related reason, I will never stay in an all-inclusive again. In 2007, I was backpacking around Europe for nine months, and decided to take a mini 'vacation' in the middle of my long and challenging trip. I was in Budapest and decided to go to Turkey to relax at a beach resort for a couple of weeks; I booked a flight and an all-inclusive and headed down. It was a decent place, good location in Alanya, but one night I was exploring the town and decided to eat at a local restaurant. It was right in the middle of town, good location, with a big patio with a great view. This was about 7:00 on a warm summer night, height of tourist season, but I was the ONLY one in the place. The food was absolutely incredible; fresh seafood, huge portions, great local dishes. And amazing value. Anyone who's had good Turkish will know what I mean. I started talking to the owner, saying I couldn't believe he wasn't packed, and he told me that ever since the all-inclusives started opening, he was barely able to earn a living. Great guy, superb restaurant. I hope he's still operating.
> 
> Everyone hung around the resort all day and gorged themselves on the mediocre hotel food instead of exploring the region. They were vacationing cheaply, but living poorly. And devastating the area they had come to see.


Oh, don't get me started on All-Inclusive hotels indexxx. I am with you 100%. Another is Cruises which are really just floating restaurants that have little to do with travel and getting to know the places you visit. But those are entirely different subjects best left for another day.


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## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> I think you are misplacing the blame. It is the owners of the airbnb property that are to blame, and behind them the local politicians who fail to deal with the free-wheeling nature of airbnb in their towns.
> 
> (It is similar in Florida where property managers are supposed to withhold 30% of rentals to pay tax liability to the state. If they don't the renter can be charged. So not only having rules but also ensuring enforcement.)


Fair comment kcowan. However, I think there is more than enough blame to go around for the company, the property owners, the local politicians AND the traveller who uses the service. That's four responsible parties all to blame for someone being evicted from their home to make room for the tourist.


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## ian

It really depends on they type of vacation that one wants. We are independent travellers. At least two trips a year, two months each. But we still do the occasional one week AI when we want some beach time. People take vacations for many reasons. Travel may or may not be the prime motivator. The last cruise we took was a South American. Around the horn. With six weeks of independent travel in South and Central America wrapped around it.

When I worked a cruise or an AI was the ideal getaway from 10-12 hour workdays. Just had to arrive and unpack. It was one way that my spouse had to get me away from the phone and the computer. No thoughts about hotels, where to eat. It was a great way to unwind. Now retired, we very much prefer independent travel. 

Don't see why anyone would denigrate another's choice of travel products simply because it does not conform to your own travel preferences.


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