# Average Salaries and net worth getting me down a bit...



## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

So I'm just going to throw this out there as I think I've noticed one aspect of this forum that's hitting me psychologically. Lot's of people seem to earn a lot of money, are well educated and seemingly young. I see stories of lots of "under 30's" earning 6-figures a year with average, University educated jobs or whatever along with a spouse that earns a significant amount as well.

And $100k salaries seem pretty common. Some members getting $50k raises, bonuses, rental properties and then, I'm sure that those who are wise enough and absolutely LOADED have never disclosed how many millions they're sitting on... Lot's of stories. I've read all the money diaries and having $10k a month to save is something I can only hope for. And from this, I look into my own personal network of friends and colleagues and start thinking that everyone around me is also doing better than I am! Therapist over here, Engineer over there... All earning $100k+ and living nice, happy money filled lives. I really have no clue though.

And then reading about teachers earning 80k+ a year with summers off and Police officers earning $80k+ a year. Both with pensions and great benefits. It almost feels like everyone is doing better than I am! I've got a kindergarten teacher friend who earns over $100k a year with summers off.

But then I think to myself, is this forum really positioned for those are are actually good earners? I mean, does your average cashier and PSW couple come here to discuss finances and investing?Meaning, is the group here, for a good part, part of the elite earners in Canada? When I look at my own situation, I earn a good salary and I also have my own business doing web design, etc. I earn a good living, but I've never broken the $100k mark in salary with my full-time employer. And in my industry, it's not impossible, but pretty hard to get there unless you're in the city (I live in a smaller city).

So I'm looking to other members of this forum to help guide me. How do you stop caring about what your engineer Brother-in-law or kids friends parents are earning? How do you stop walking around looking at everyone with a "text bubble above their head" of guessing what they earn. I go to my kids school (we live in an affluent neighbourhood) and can't help but feel as though everyone is earning more. It makes me feel inferior and completely self-imposed. Not sure why?

I'm not a "keeping up with the Jonses" kindof person. We drive 10 year old cars and we're okay with that... But I feel threatened with what seems like other couples earning more than me. Don't know why? Wish I didn't... 

Silly, yes. Just being honest here... It's like "I'm the poor guy who's been offered a day pass at the country club and I feel down from it"

Normal? Something I can get over? Human nature? Do others in this forum feel the same at at all or am I just silly and the 36 year old me will one day learn it doesn't matter...


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Maybe you just know a lot of successful people. Whatever you do don't compare yourself to this forum.

I'm also 36 and I personally don't know anyone in my circle of family or friends who makes over 100K, though a couple may be close (one is military the other a professor). On the other hand, I know at least four people who make under 35K.

Also, remember that 36 is still early in your working career. Unless you're planning to retire early, you probably have another 20-30 years to grow your income.

Do you think all those high earners you know are actually saving their money? Statistically, it's more likely they spend most of their money and will end up working just as long as you.


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## namelessone (Sep 28, 2012)

I am in the philosophy of no self, no others thus my forum name is: namelessone. This body is just a combination of some materials from the universe. After 100 years or so, it'll disintegrate. 
Wealth is not about how much you earn. It's how much you save and how fast can you grow that saving.
Seek the power within not outside then you'll have peace.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

nathan79 said:


> Do you think all those high earners you know are actually saving their money? Statistically, it's more likely they spend most of their money and will end up working just as long as you.


"The Millionaire Next Door" was an eye-opener for me. I realized that for our incomes, we saved embarrassingly little. And I am reminded about it on this forum sometimes, but it motivates me to stick to the plan (as it's better late than never )

Our closest friends are 6 years younger and 10+ years ago, as couples, we were making about the same. But they always seemed to have more money - bought a more expensive house, were driving two new-ish cars (we had one - I never owned a car, and still relying on public transportation), designer furniture, clothes, shoes etc. I considered us cheap, but it didn't bother me much (as we could afford to go to the same restaurants and vacations) At some point they complained about debt (credit cards and line of credit) - and we had 50K in checking account "just in case"... 

I'd never say the word "frugal" in our circle of friends (even to me it still sounds like something rather emberassing...)


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

kork said:


> Normal? Something I can get over? Human nature? Do others in this forum feel the same at at all or am I just silly and the 36 year old me will one day learn it doesn't matter...


Spend some time on the cancer forums where people your age are fighting desperately for their lives, and are often losing.

Would that help to put things in perspective?


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

GoldStone said:


> Spend some time on the cancer forums where people your age are fighting desperately for their lives, and are often losing.
> 
> Would that help to put things in perspective?


No, one of my high school friends actually in in his second battle and just came out of chemo before Halloween. My father had a rare cancer 4 years ago which he's still recovering from. Logically, I know that I've won the "Ovarian Lottery" to be born and raised in Canada. Additionally, I feel fortunate to able to afford what we do...

Visiting cancer forums wouldn't help. I'm not looking for a boost by looking at others misfortune. But as a result of online resources and reading the news, it seems like everyone is doing better.

It's almost like facebooks' highlight reel. Everyone is doing amazing, fun, awesome things.


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

namelessone said:


> I am in the philosophy of no self, no others thus my forum name is: namelessone. This body is just a combination of some materials from the universe. After 100 years or so, it'll disintegrate.
> *Wealth is not about how much you earn. It's how much you save and how fast can you grow that saving.
> *Seek the power within not outside then you'll have peace.


Very good statement.

And I agree with Moneytoo, "The Millionaire Next Door" is a great book that shows you that you don't need to be a high income earner to end up wealthy. I think it's good to have that balance of being around people who may have more money or income than you. It can give you something to strive for on one hand, but on the other hand it can remind you in certain situations that money isn't the root of all happiness. How many people who do you know with higher incomes and more money, and seem to be happier? Probably a decent amount. Now how many have incomes around yours, and are very happy as well? Probably even more.


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## Feruk (Aug 15, 2012)

I read somewhere that if you bring in over $80K/year, anything above that number doesn't increase your level of happiness. Trust me, those people that you're jealous of are likely no happier than you are.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Most people who end up here are in the 10%
Very few people spend a typical monday night on a forum discussing dividend stocks lol
This is not the 'norm'
Wealth and investing go hand in hand
The equivalent is of this would be to hang around a body building forum and wonder if everyone has under 16% body fat and looking at stats of workouts
This is a niche forum
People on cmf seek it out
+1 on envious
Wealth is a small part of someones life
never judge a book by it's cover
wealth and happiness don't always go hand in hand
some of the most miserable people have wealth and not much else
best to run your own race.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

I wouldn't worry too much about those salaries. Probably a lot of them are embellished however, the last 10 year boom created a lot of shortages and people might have been able to negotiate their way up a rung or two. Thats going to change because Canada is about to barely coast along and there won't be a similar boom for a while. Some civil servants might not notice but your run of the mill engineer might.

Here is the thing about salaries - they mean very little in terms of wealth. Lots of high end earners blow it all on a house and car and have nothing left invested. Assets matter in wealth, not salary, just ask a bank. Do you have anything that will pay you if you ever got sick or happened to lose your job or live 40 years after retirement. Most don't. They would have to sell their house or car if an emergency ever happened. There are about 100,000 people in Alberta finding that out right now.

I felt the same way when I was in my early 30s and made some drastic changes and left the rat race at 39.


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

tygrus said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about those salaries. Probably a lot of them are embellished however, the last 10 year boom created a lot of shortages and people might have been able to negotiate their way up a rung or two. Thats going to change because Canada is about to barely coast along and there won't be a similar boom for a while. Some civil servants might not notice but your run of the mill engineer might.
> 
> Here is the thing about salaries - they mean very little in terms of wealth. Lots of high end earners blow it all on a house and car and have nothing left invested. Assets matter in wealth, not salary, just ask a bank. Do you have anything that will pay you if you ever got sick or happened to lose your job or live 40 years after retirement. Most don't. They would have to sell their house or car if an emergency ever happened. There are about 100,000 people in Alberta finding that out right now.
> 
> *I felt the same way when I was in my early 30s and made some drastic changes and left the rat race at 39.*


Can you specify what you mean by leaving the rat race? Curious 23 year old here


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

DollaWine said:


> Can you specify what you mean by leaving the rat race? Curious 23 year old here


I started owning 4 rental properties but that was a nightmare. Landlording sucks every which way. Sold them.

I then bought 1000 ac of farmland and run that. I make all my years wages in about 3 months of work. (reverse teacher) This is not for just anyone but I am comfortable with higher levels of risk than most.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

farmers have the highest rate of suicide of any occupation.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

The exposer of pesticides to destroy the nervous system of insects may change brain chemistry in farmers resulting in depression which might be a contributing factor to the high suicide rate.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I understand what the OP is saying. It often seems that way to me too... there do seem to be many people posting unusually high salaries here, and occasional lawyers or energy sector workers who earn 120K +

To balance it out think of what people are _not_ posting. For instance, for the full year or so when I was unemployed, I didn't come on here posting about how my income is 20K (and that was only thanks to EI). When I found a new job with a high salary, _I did_ mention that. I'm just pointing out that you're hearing all the best stories, and very few of the not-so-good stories.

I also didn't participate in this forum back in 2008 when I ran a business and saw it implode, along with the financial crisis. I probably had 30K to 50K income that year.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

P.S. I'm one of these guys in his 30s making over 100K. But here's more to this view, and this might help you feel better:

- My average income over the last seven years was 55 K
- I had a postgraduate degree in engineering that entire time
- I have no car
- I have no girlfriend/wife
- I keep moving and relocating to find work (_ties into_: no girlfriend)
- I don't own real estate
- I ride a second hand bicycle
- My orchid just died

And while I know several people with seemingly very high salaries, some of them (e.g. oil engineer working in Texas) have had long stretches of unemployment ... and almost all of us have a much lower "average annual salary" than you might think. At least in my group of friends around my age.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

I appreciate all the answers. I also appreciate the limited "suck it up buttercup and count your blessings" comments because that's not what I'm looking for.

I'm not thinking that people with more money are happier. I was speaking with a good friend of mine who's a bit older about it. He said "Kork, you can't cherry pick pieces of people's lives. You need to ask yourself if you would trade places with them."

He then went on to explain that he's got a friend who lives in Richmond hill. Multi-million dollar home with a $250k a year salary and a beautiful wife. But he said "would I trade places with him? No, his teen kids are a$$holes, his wife's cheating on him as he's never around. On paper, it looks good, but it's not a life I'd want"

But even being aware of this, it doesn't stop me from thinking "gee, everyone around me seems to be passing me by" and maybe I need to change my path? Like I said, it's more of a threatening feeling.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

A couple of quotes from Charlie Munger:

“There is nothing more counterproductive than envy. Someone in the world will always be better than you. Of all the sins, envy is easily the worst, because you can’t even have any fun with it. It’s a total net loss.”

“Someone will always be getting richer faster than you. This is not a tragedy.”


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## Bowzer (Feb 25, 2015)

I didn't visit this forum when I had no money. I only started reading it when I did. So I agree with the comments above that this forum isn't representative of anything other than the people on it.


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## Bowzer (Feb 25, 2015)

One other thought.... something I've pondered with regards to my own children... 

I want them to pursue what they'll be passionate about, irregardless of the money. Make a happy life for themselves no matter what the income. I won't judge them if they make $30k a year doing something they love. My only lessons for them will be to live debt free on what they make and make their savings goals. It will all be relative, but if they can do that they will be OK.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

lonewolf said:


> The exposer of pesticides to destroy the nervous system of insects may change brain chemistry in farmers resulting in depression which might be a contributing factor to the high suicide rate.


We use herbicides, not insecticides and we don't even come close to those chemicals any more. They are automatically sucked into a machine and I sit in a cab way out in front of the application. No more dangerous than the chemicals you have in your garage or under your sink.

But hey, I am glad to go organic any time if the world can handle the 50% reduction in crop yield. Which country should we starve first? Or we can use GMOs to make up the yield shortfall?


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Bowzer said:


> One other thought.... something I've pondered with regards to my own children...
> 
> I want them to pursue what they'll be passionate about, irregardless of the money. Make a happy life for themselves no matter what the income. I won't judge them if they make $30k a year doing something they love. My only lessons for them will be to live debt free on what they make and make their savings goals. It will all be relative, but if they can do that they will be OK.


That's a really good point. I'm fortunate to do something that I enjoy and am reasonably well compensated from it. We are aiming to be mortgage free within 5 years so that'll be good.

One other thing to note, my wife is 7 years older than me so I find that I'm not comparing apples to apples. When I look at "where you should be" charts I always look at the "mid 40's" demographic.


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## crr243 (Nov 2, 2015)

To put a different spin on this, I think some of it has to do with where you are and what you're doing. 

Engineering, for example, commands a pretty high salary when you graduate, and increases come pretty rapidly for the first few years as you hit the P.Eng. level, but then it tends to taper off.

In addition, certain markets (i.e. Alberta) command a higher salary than many other markets.

Some examples:
1. My sister on law graduated from Education in Newfoundland this May. She couldn't find a job there and, even if she had, her starting salary would have been around $50,000. She moved to remote Alberta, where her salary is over $80,000. Her mother, also a teacher in Newfoundland, only made $80,000 at retirement this year, after 35 years teaching.

2. I'm one of those early 30 high income earners. When I graduated from University in 2009 with two technical degrees (Engineering and Computer Science), I was making $52,000 in Saskatoon. 3 years later I was only making $58,000. I moved to Calgary in 2012 and my salary jumped to $67,000. 3 years later, in 2015, I sky rocketed to about $110,000. I don't see this increasing much over the next decade. 

Meanwhile, I recently received a job offer in Saskatoon for $90,000 and a job offer in Halifax for $82,000, for jobs that are very similar to what I am currently doing. 

Location makes a difference.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

"Here is the thing about salaries - they mean very little in terms of wealth."

Agreed. Lots of people make good money but they also _waste_ good money.

"Do you have anything that will pay you if you ever got sick or happened to lose your job or live 40 years after retirement"?

Yes, dividends and distributions. Hopefully in 7-10 years before age 50 we can leave the rat race for good. We'll keep our capital intact for the early years in retirement. This way, we have a margin of safety.

As for net worth comparisons, I don't let that stuff bother me anymore. I focus on what I can control and try not to worry about what I cannot control. If you're always looking around you to see what others have you won't truly appreciate what you have yourself. 

There will always be people in the world much less fortunate than you. If you have your health, you have a job and you have clean water and a decent roof over your head - you're living _*very well *_in the big picture. Don't lose sight of that stuff!!


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## CPA Candidate (Dec 15, 2013)

People lie about money on the internet.


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## Taraz (Nov 24, 2013)

I have a friend with an engineering degree who bought a 3300 sq ft house with his wife a few years ago with 5% down. He's basically living paycheck-to-paycheck (even though it would have to be a pretty hefty paycheck). I really don't know how he even got approved for the mortgage - looking at comparable properties, I'd estimate that he would have paid approx $700 K for the house. I wonder how many high-earners are barely hanging on by their fingernails - personally I'm very debt adverse. I don't know how he's going to refinance when the interest rates rise and the oil prices are still low here in Alberta.

If you're living within your means, I'd argue that you're in a better financial position.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

james4beach said:


> - My orchid just died


You think you got problems? Last week my basil plant fell off the window sill and spilled dirt all over the carpet. They the cat ate the basil and threw it up all over the carpet! The worse part? I was 2 days away from making a delicious elk-meat Bolognese sauce with fresh basil!

Kork, it's easy to look at the best from everyone else and the worst from yourself. I'm one of those 6 figure 20 somethings, but I live and work in Fort McMurray, practically the arctic!

For sure there are some small number of jobs out there where you are compensated very well for not much/easy work. Usually though, if you make a lot of money it's because you are willing to tolerate intolerable conditions, work very long hours, or you have a great amount of legal/financial responsibility. 

If you make decent money in a pleasant city, don't have to work in harsh conditions, don't have to worry about getting sued because you're a professional (doctor/lawyer/engineer etc.), and don't have to work 50-70 hours/week with no overtime, then you are doing damn well in my opinion. You can't just look at who makes how much. There is no free lunch, and most people who make a lot of money must suffer in some way to get that high income. Nobody likes to talk about the suffering though, just the good stuff. But trust me, it's there.


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## noobs (Sep 27, 2015)

I think the fact that you had the time and efford to find this forum about finance/money/money management/investing is already a huge step.
Of course you'll see people who've never even graduated from highschool become millionaires and on the other spectrum, Ph.Ds and postdocs that barely make 50k.
Comparing to others should be a driving force, not a deterrent.

I'm positive that those who grind and try to make things happen, will make things happen. Nothing will fall from the sky and land on your lap (unless you win the 6/49 or something)


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

One will never 'arrive' anyways
No matter how much money anyone has were all exposed to all the emotions humans have every day you wake up(no one escapes that)
Don't think money will remove envy/anger/shame/ etc 
I have a older family member in my family who is a Multi-millionaire he became one in his early 30's years ago
Here is a funny story about him about 'wanting' and 'envy'
and how we as humans focus on what we would like and not what we have(it's funny because it has to do with vanity and it took him until his 50's!to be at peace lol)
He went bald in his mid 20's and he was damn near obsessed/depressed about it for years!
Not one picture in all the years did he not wear a hat....he tried every hair transplant and without success(spent thousands and he admitted to me he was highly insecure about it
(keep in mind nobody but him really cared nor judge him on it--i don't think anyways)
I know for a fact he would of envied a hobo with flowing locks in his early 30's
sounds stupid but that is they way of the human mind(prob didn't help balded men in the 70's and 80's were celebrated in the media
anyways point being everyone has insecurities and can deal with the seven deadly 'sins' your bank account won't save you from this
Trust me we 'all' have things we envy about people and people may envy about you
It is freeing remember stupid examples like the one above lol


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

Average salary in Canada - $49,000. 

http://www.workopolis.com/content/a...earning-the-average-canadian-wages-right-now/

Median family income - $76,000

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/median...ada-is-76-000-statscan-survey-shows-1.1449641


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Spidey said:


> Average salary in Canada - $49,000.
> 
> http://www.workopolis.com/content/a...earning-the-average-canadian-wages-right-now/
> 
> ...


Note the range in average salary by province -- an almost 20K difference between P.E.I. and Alberta. And these are the averages... the median is even less than that.

From the second article... 



> It shows that the median family income in Canada is $76,000 -- generally higher in the West than the East -- *while the median individual income is just $27,600. That means just as many individuals earn less than $27,600 as earn more.*


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

To the OP: I sometimes think that way too- but then I remember that the happiest I've EVER been in my whole adult life was when I was a homeless street musician in Europe for 9 months. It was as romantic and free as it sounds. I had just left the Caymans where I lived for five years, and had no real ties left in Canada, having given up everything here with the intent of never coming back. I went to Europe looking for a new life- open a bar or a hostel, etc. I supported myself as a busker in over 15 countries. I had no keys, no phone, no bills aside from my daily hostel or campsite and food plus a few museum and train tickets. I didn't even have a country of legal residence; I was still a Canadian citizen, but had given up residency for tax purposes, and then when I left Cayman my residency there was over. So I was literally a homeless person, my only belongings were my guitar, camera, backpack, and a few boxes of personal stuff I'd left with a friend in Canada years before.

I lived on whatever I could earn singing Bob Marley and U2 in the streets- I had some investments sitting in Canada but nothing significant- about 35K at the time. To be perfectly frank, I could have continued like that for the rest of my life except for two things. The first was that I was sick of living in hostels- drunk kids, noise, never having my own bed or a place to hang a picture, etc. The other thing was an undefined sense of 'having to do more' with my life and with my innate abilities- the feeling that I would be letting myself down if I didn't settle down and get a solid job, build retirement funds, etc. 

Now that I'm doing exactly that, and am paying off a condo on a slightly less than average BC income, I would really rather be doing what I was doing 8 years ago- just existing playing music, writing, shooting photographs, meeting amazing people, and living completely free of plans and encumbrances. If I could have found a way to legally stay in Europe and have a place to live, I would still be a street musician and damn everything else. The happiest I'll likely ever be in my life was with little money but all the time I wanted to just explore. Now that I'm back in the rat race, I come on this site to maximize my admittedly small nest egg. My point, I guess, is that it's all a matter of perspective- if you feel that you are unhappy comparing monetary amounts with others, then unless you're Kenneth Dart, Warren Buffet or Carlos Slim, you'll always be chasing it (and actually, those guys are still doing so, relentlessly...) 

Sometimes I like to imagine what life would be like if mass communicate had never existed- so you'd never know who was doing what aside from your direct neighbours. If that were the case, and you had enough to live reasonably, would that change anything in your thinking?


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

There are a lot of made believe accounts on the internet.
People lie about their stories. 

Most people will try to boast their actual situation. Many counts their car, motorcycles, tools etc into their assets when it is basically worth 0 or negative. It is the same reasoning behind mark to market and mark to fantasy accounting.

The most common trespass is telling people the "family income" instead of the "single person income". Also, a lot of the people who seem "richer" are close to retirement age. 

My suggestion is, pick a few around your age. Meetup so you can confirm they are real and look at a rest as a "sentiment" indicator on what average Canadian are thinking.

I spent only 24k to travel 45 countries and hundreds of cities + places. Somewhere along the line I stopped envying others because I managed to do this, at this cost at this age. THAT is invaluable. Oh that and india, join a cult and some crazy stuff will definitely put a perspective on how futile the western "dream life" is.


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## Kail (Feb 7, 2012)

indexxx said:


> To the OP: I sometimes think that way too- but then I remember that the happiest I've EVER been in my whole adult life was when I was a homeless street musician in Europe for 9 months. It was as romantic and free as it sounds. I had just left the Caymans where I lived for five years, and had no real ties left in Canada, having given up everything here with the intent of never coming back. I went to Europe looking for a new life- open a bar or a hostel, etc. I supported myself as a busker in over 15 countries. I had no keys, no phone, no bills aside from my daily hostel or campsite and food plus a few museum and train tickets. I didn't even have a country of legal residence; I was still a Canadian citizen, but had given up residency for tax purposes, and then when I left Cayman my residency there was over. So I was literally a homeless person, my only belongings were my guitar, camera, backpack, and a few boxes of personal stuff I'd left with a friend in Canada years before.
> 
> I lived on whatever I could earn singing Bob Marley and U2 in the streets- I had some investments sitting in Canada but nothing significant- about 35K at the time. To be perfectly frank, I could have continued like that for the rest of my life except for two things. The first was that I was sick of living in hostels- drunk kids, noise, never having my own bed or a place to hang a picture, etc. The other thing was an undefined sense of 'having to do more' with my life and with my innate abilities- the feeling that I would be letting myself down if I didn't settle down and get a solid job, build retirement funds, etc.
> 
> ...


Your story is quite interesting. That is something I could never do, but I'm not in anyway artistic. Good for you though, doing what you loved. It reminds me of my best friend who has lived in every province at one point in his life and always seemed to move around. He ended up getting a government job in Winnipeg working for the National Microbiology Lab (great contact when ebola was in the news btw) for the past 5 or 6 years. Good income, pension, low cost of living, tons of friends, yet he didn't have a passion for it. What did he do? Over the last year he lived like a hermit and saved everything he could, gave up drinking & smoking and started taking dive classes. 2 weeks ago he moved to Utila, Honduras to begin the next chapter of his life and become a dive master. Now, I'm a bit envious of him for just following his dream, but like I mentioned earlier, it is something I could just never do - not on as grand a scale as that. Not now anyway, not with real life (wife, house, etc) there. In my early 20's I would have jumped at the opportunity to do something like this but now that I'm in my early 30's it scares the bajebus out of me.

As for the average salaries, I'm slighty above and I'm alright with that for the time being. Our household is way above which is probably one of the reasons I'm OK with my own. That being said, I do want more and am currently working on a side project that should bring me some extra income doing something I love to do.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

indexxx, Is a big part of the reason you could enjoy your years abroad busking and living with no responsibilities, is that you always knew in the back of your mind that you were a Canadian citizen, could speak perfect English and could come home and make something of yourself at any point?

I'm wondering what the perspective on this lifestyle of a local European busker who has never known a life except a simple near-poverty level existence, and can only speak English or German with a heavy accent based on whatever his first language is? Do you think those folks have the same outlook on the experience as you did?

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just looking for your perspective. From my travels to Europe and South American in the last couple of years (just short vacations by your comparison) I've interacted with many locals. People who have the easiest most pleasant jobs from my perspective (bicycle tour guide, musician, part time student and barista, etc.). They all seem to be leading happy lives, but when I start talking about myself and my life/work in Canada, it becomes very apparent that most of them would give an arm and a leg to switch places with me just to have a chance at making a career for themselves in a prime western nation like Canada/USA/UK or Australia.

edit: you also say "The other thing was an undefined sense of 'having to do more' with my life and with my innate abilities-" do you think that this sense of even having "innate abilities" is a big part of success, and that perhaps that people who are growing up in other countries with few prospects do not even have this sense that there may be some innate abilities in them to give? Sometimes I think that is the case, and why it seems so easy to be successful as rich westerners, due to an overwhelming confidence that we have innate abilities just waiting to be unleashed.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I would not concern myself with what other people earn, say they earn, or what other people do or say they do.

I would only concern myself with me and my family, the choices that we make, and the outcomes we desire. 

There will always be people worse off and better off financially. This is not the only measure of success or indeed an indicator of happiness.

Our focus has always been on moving forward. Making the changes, the decisions, that will benefit us in the present and future notwithstanding any sacrifices in the present in order to meet those personal and financial goals. Over the years I have seen too many people do nothing, be complacent with their lives/goals, expect positive change, only to be disappointed in the outcomes. 

It worked for me/us.


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## SpendLessEarnMore (Aug 7, 2013)

kork said:


> So I'm just going to throw this out there as I think I've noticed one aspect of this forum that's hitting me psychologically. Lot's of people seem to earn a lot of money, are well educated and seemingly young. I see stories of lots of "under 30's" earning 6-figures a year with average, University educated jobs or whatever along with a spouse that earns a significant amount as well.
> 
> And $100k salaries seem pretty common. Some members getting $50k raises, bonuses, rental properties and then, I'm sure that those who are wise enough and absolutely LOADED have never disclosed how many millions they're sitting on... Lot's of stories. I've read all the money diaries and having $10k a month to save is something I can only hope for. And from this, I look into my own personal network of friends and colleagues and start thinking that everyone around me is also doing better than I am! Therapist over here, Engineer over there... All earning $100k+ and living nice, happy money filled lives. I really have no clue though.
> 
> ...


I'm just a year older than you with a daughter to raise and I forced my wife to quit her job. Closest to 6 figures I got was half of that 3 years ago when I quit my job forever. I see people all around me make lots more than me and drive new cars.

People say I'm rich because I own couple houses and don't go to work. My networth is only $240k when compared to others not working it seems not enough to live off. 

But I'm happy with my life and being able to provide for my wife and daughter. And that is all that is important to me. My selfishness was long gone after I met my future wife. I don't need cars or expensive houses or fancy gadgets to make me happy. Seeing my wife happy and my daughter getting the best opportunity is all that matters to me.

I own a house that I bought for $192k and it's 2100 square feet. Close to c-train that I can get downtown and walking distance to all the shops and mall. Love the vibe of the neighbourhood. Best part is I don't have to stress about not making the mortgage payments.

I drive my motorbike when weather permits. Insurance is just $100/year and saves on gas. Otherwise I have a $500 car. I love the open breeze whipping along my face.

I don't own a tv. I'm happy just staring at the blue sky or singing out loud. 

Point being focus on what makes you satisfied and what are the important things in your life. It's not frugal if you're not struggling.


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## Itchy54 (Feb 12, 2012)

I too have found the numbers thrown around on this site and others to be huge. We have never made a lot of money, but we saved. We built and renovated some houses, and that was sort of profitable but not the huge returns that some get. We plodded along and enjoyed life, saved and saved. Hubby just retired last week at 58. We will live a comfortable retirement, nothing crazy fancy but we will travel. We don't eat out, really don't like restaurant food. We "grew up" not spending so now it's hard to even think of it. As our retirement income will exceed what we spent In the past it is certainly a learning curve for me! I need to learn to spend....
Be patient, try not to live too much in the present (meaning don't reward yourself for every little thing...save it) and enjoy life. In the end it's not about money and things. A warm, safe and dry place to live and good food...that makes me happy.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Salary envy is much like penis envy...
either you got it, or you don't... 
why worry about it?


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Sampson said:


> Salary envy is much like penis envy...
> either you got it, or you don't...
> why worry about it?


I'm not sure if it's envy or not... I know there will always be those who are better off, etc. 

It's not the case of wanting to "have more" for the sake of having more. It seems to stem from a level of comfort and security. Why worry about it? That's the question. The worry comes from feeling like I'll somehow miss out on something that financial means will allow for... at some point.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

This seems to offer some insight.


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## OurBigFatWallet (Jan 20, 2014)

I wouldn't go off what you read online, I would go off what you see and hear in your own everyday life. Anyone can say anything about their net worth online. It's like Facebook - for all you know by looking at your daily feed all your friends live a perfectly happy life full of margaritas, vacations and nights on the town. It's just not reality. There are lots of people who make a high salary but there are also those who make very little every year, you just don't hear them talking about it


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

kork said:


> It seems to stem from a level of comfort and security. Why worry about it? That's the question. The worry comes from feeling like I'll somehow miss out on something that financial means will allow for... at some point.


But what exactly are you missing out on? First, I don't get the sense that you have this nailed down. IF there is something concrete, well then just make a tangible goal and get it done.

I have to consider your previous posts into account, and you considering shutting things down (work wise) and quitting your job to live of your monies. How many people, whether in their 30's or even in their 60's can do this?

You acknowledge that there will always be someone who has more, earn's more etc, but it doesn't seem like you accept it.

Define your goals and just meet them. No need to fret while comparing. Everyone compares, but how will that lead to more happiness, and I pose the question, what exactly are you missing out on?


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

fraser said:


> I would not concern myself with what other people earn, say they earn, or what other people do or say they do.
> 
> I would only concern myself with me and my family, the choices that we make, and the outcomes we desire.
> 
> ...



+1 :encouragement:


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Sampson said:


> But what exactly are you missing out on? First, I don't get the sense that you have this nailed down. IF there is something concrete, well then just make a tangible goal and get it done.
> 
> I have to consider your previous posts into account, and you considering shutting things down (work wise) and quitting your job to live of your monies. How many people, whether in their 30's or even in their 60's can do this?
> 
> ...


I know what you're saying. These are just my honest thoughts. Not sure what they're stemming from, what the trigger is or what the end game is.

I don't think jealousy or envy is the feeling. I think it's more of the threatened/vulnerable feeling? Imposter syndrome in a saturated space? Because I think I'm going to miss out on "something?" - I'm not sure.

Anyways, those are just my unfiltered, personal thoughts. It just feels like when looking at the news, reading the paper, reading through diaries here I'm left thinking... Jeez, everyone is doing really, really well! I wish everyone the best, but I feel threatened/vulnerable.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

OurBigFatWallet said:


> ... It's just not reality.
> 
> There are lots of people who make a high salary but there are also those who make very little every year, you just don't hear them talking about it


Then there's how one uses what one has ... of those with high incomes, I know many how have big debts so that the one's with lower incomes are much farther ahead.


Cheers


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

It has been our experience that most people we know or have met with 'real money' don't talk about it, they don't brag about it. It is private. Nor do they splash it around. That is how most of them, or their ancestors, obtained it in the first place. Some that I have been acquainted with work 14 hours day and take financial and personal risks that many others would not.

It comes down to choice, decisions, and outcomes. And the ability to recognize an opportunity when it comes along as well as spot a non starter.

My advice would be not to spend your time wishing or being envious. It is somewhat akin to being in neutral, perhaps even worse. Plus it is a complete waste of time and energy.

Move forward in your life according to your own goals, your own abilities, ambitions and interests. It is not always easy but it will yield benefits-financial and otherwise.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

You are obsessing about getting money thinking it will make everything ok and your worries will be gone.

I will tell you for certain the people with money are just as worried about losing it. 

Seems like security is always out of our reach.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

"Today, *Ezra, 33, and Leah, 32*, have three children with a fourth on the way. Rather than doing without, they’re planning to build a new house and wondering how to invest their surplus income.

...

On average, the family spends about $113,400 a year. Assuming Leah stays home with the children for the foreseeable future and Ezra is the sole breadwinner, *Ms. Day estimates they could save about $114,000 a year*, including contributions to their registered retirement savings plans (RRSPs) and registered education savings plans (RESPs) for their children."

Can this young couple construct a plan for early retirement?

I'm glad they're not on CMF... lol


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Moneytoo said:


> "Today, *Ezra, 33, and Leah, 32*, have three children with a fourth on the way. Rather than doing without, they’re planning to build a new house and wondering how to invest their surplus income.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


This is exactly my point Moneytoo. What am I doing wrong where everyone else is doing awesome? Part owner in a family company... I know of few of them...

You know what? I remember about 10 years ago I was reading an article and it talked about a young couple, living at home, earning $200k a year and "trying" to save for their first home. I was saving pennies for an engagement ring and trying to pay off student debt and pay for the new mortgage which was a townhome. 

In this article I remember a piece of it that said something like "They can't buy a home yet and are living at her parents because 'as mark smiles over at his bride to be' there's a nice ring on her finger..."

It may have been Globe and Mail or Moneysense and I sent an email blasting them for having such an out of touch article. I was 25/26 (Same age as the couple in the article) and earning $60k a year in a lead development role and saving pennies. How on earth could this couple represent "real people" when I graduated at the top of my post grad glass in a growing field?

I remember at the time I was frustrated with such an out of touch article... But these articles keep comin'. Makes me feel like I should be working harder or something.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

kork said:


> This is exactly my point Moneytoo. What am I doing wrong where everyone else is doing awesome? Part owner in a family company... I know of few of them...
> 
> You know what? I remember about 10 years ago I was reading an article and it talked about a young couple, living at home, earning $200k a year and "trying" to save for their first home. I was saving pennies for an engagement ring and trying to pay off student debt and pay for the new mortgage which was a townhome.
> 
> ...


I read those financial facelift/money makeover articles every week. They articles are interesting as are the comments. I'm a firm believer in the law of attraction. I've always visualized the lifestyle I want (realistically) rather than the 'things' and I've pretty much nailed it, continuously. Being an optimist helps. Rather than looking at others who make more with envy, I always think about how they got their, what their business model is, could I do the same, etc. A couple times a month at least I sit down and run through numbers for a potential business that piques my interest. Eventually something will come along. A positive attitude and a good imagination are key I think. Things just end up happening. The majority of the world loses those skills around the age of 13.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

kork said:


> It may have been Globe and Mail or Moneysense and I sent an email blasting them for having such an out of touch article.
> 
> ...
> 
> I remember at the time I was frustrated with such an out of touch article... But these articles keep comin'. Makes me feel like I should be working harder or something.


You know, it never occurred to me to e-mail to a women's magazine and complain that they keep showcasing tall skinny models who look 20 years younger...


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Moneytoo said:


> "Today, *Ezra, 33, and Leah, 32*, have three children with a fourth on the way. Rather than doing without, they’re planning to build a new house and wondering how to invest their surplus income.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


What's more interesting is their original situation 6 years ago. Where their monthly after-tax income was $6,700. At that time the husband was contemplating joining the family business. I guess it helps when his father runs the company. At the time they had a modest $260k house, but now own a $750k house.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...-pair-want-to-loosen-up-a-bit/article4297472/

I wouldn't take this example as any sort of realistic example considering that he was born with the lucky lottery of the father running a private company.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

kork said:


> What am I doing wrong where everyone else is doing awesome?


The first thing seems to be thinking that "everyone else is doing awesome".

Regardless of what people tell you or what is posted on internet forums or whatever newspaper article floats by or whatever source that is leading you to this conclusion ... StatsCanada says that for 2013, those earning an income of $100K plus is 677,440 of 26,172,530 persons or something like 2.5%. 

Conversely, those making under $50K seem to be a bit under 70% of the income earners.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm


Clearly everyone can't be doing awesome.




kork said:


> ... But these articles keep comin'. Makes me feel like I should be working harder or something.


 ... and I can recall lots of articles profiling bad investment decisions decimating investors hard earned dollars for the last thirty years.

Should I conclude based on volume that investing is a bad idea?


Cheers


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

kork said:


> I think it's more of the threatened/vulnerable feeling? Imposter syndrome in a saturated space? Because I think I'm going to miss out on "something?" - I'm not sure.


What is your work situation? I'm not clear. Do you have a job or do you manage a couple rental properties as your job?

The above to me sounds like a normal reaction of a man in his 30s with 2 kids to raise and is scared he might lose his job and get put out on the street and fail his family. 

"imposter syndrome" - not sure what you mean by this. Do you work hard in your job and have confidence in yourself? Or do you skate by on minimal effort, always worried someone is going to call you out one day for being a know-nothing-slacker and ruin your easy life?


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

peterk said:


> What is your work situation? I'm not clear. Do you have a job or do you manage a couple rental properties as your job?
> 
> The above to me sounds like a normal reaction of a man in his 30s with 2 kids to raise and is scared he might lose his job and get put out on the street and fail his family.
> 
> "imposter syndrome" - not sure what you mean by this. Do you work hard in your job and have confidence in yourself? Or do you skate by on minimal effort, always worried someone is going to call you out one day for being a know-nothing-slacker and ruin your easy life?


Imposting syndrome is something I was introduced to when I taught at the College. In my industry that changes every 6 months, whenever you're learning something new, there's three things you should be learning... Eventually, you become aware there's so much you don't know that you question why you're teaching it.

I've never been unemployed and have worked since I was 12 years old. I work hard. Worked "real jobs" through much of public school (grade 6 and on), all through highschool, worked my way through College, full-time job right out of College and from there, steady employment ever since. 

Currently, I'm a minority partner where I work full-time, own another business on the side as a sole proprietor (doing the same thing but with my own clients) and developed a piece of software that generates some passive income.

I'm not fearful of losing my job anymore than someone else. The constant pressures of technology turnover combined with a family is leading me to want to slow down somehow (as per other threads). I do have anxiety issues and have since I can remember as a small child. Was diagnosed with GAD about a decade ago. It's minor and I can control it, but sometimes it gets the better of me... like... when I'm reading articles about everyone earning a ton of money... Back to the vulnerable thing.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

BTW - I'm reading all the comments multiple times and appreciate all the insight. Thank-you all.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I never made $20,000 a year in the best job I ever had and most of the time was unable to find any job at all. That is one reason I got into investing starting with real estate.

Now I have enough to live on without working but it took me 50 years to get here. Believe me, you wouldn't trade your life for mine if I threw in a set of dishes. Hope that makes you feel better.


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## FI40 (Apr 6, 2015)

I'm a reasonably high earner, but I know lots of folks that earn much more than me. I'm also a pretty competitive person, and it can irk me I suppose. What helps for me is to know that when it comes to my _savings rate_, I'm much better than average. That's what will really propel you to financial independence - it's more important to that than absolute income.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I'll say it (or write it) again....

"There will always be people in the world much less fortunate than you. If you have your health, you have a job and you have clean water and a decent roof over your head - you're living very well in the big picture. Don't lose sight of that stuff."

Just my take on life of course.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

My Own Advisor said:


> I'll say it (or write it) again....
> 
> "There will always be people in the world much less fortunate than you. If you have your health, you have a job and you have clean water and a decent roof over your head - you're living very well in the big picture. Don't lose sight of that stuff."
> 
> Just my take on life of course.


Understood. But of course, we've all seen that when stock markets crash, people go jumping out of buildings too... Seriously people? Life just got that bad? But to them, I suppose ti was bad enough to end it all in their own perception bubble.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

If this is really eating at you and you can`t let it go, ask yourself what are you willing to do to get there because the next level requires more risk than most people can tolerate.

You could switch jobs and maybe make another $20k which 40% will be taxed away. You can go into extreme savings and investing mode and live frugal while you build another income. You could get a second job or go take on some huge debt to start a business which might fail in a year.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

tygrus said:


> If this is really eating at you and you can`t let it go, ask yourself what are you willing to do to get there because the next level requires more risk than most people can tolerate.
> 
> You could switch jobs and maybe make another $20k which 40% will be taxed away. You can go into extreme savings and investing mode and live frugal while you build another income. You could get a second job or go take on some huge debt to start a business which might fail in a year.


It's not really eating me up inside. Just something I'm a bit sensitive to and wanted to see if it's the norm or not? Perhaps lots of people who are doing well find their way to this forum like it was mentioned earlier. How many people earn $100k+ salaries consistently or when you're in that range from a single employer, do you go from employed for couple years to unemployed for a year and so on? Tallest trees get cut first right? And perhaps those articles of 30 year olds earning $150k a year salaries trying to manage their finances are the same as the beauty magazines... Young targets and potential long-term subscribers... _"Let's show them that our readers are rich so they'll think they can be the same if the consume our content, that's how we'll get em!"_

I guess I'm just trying to find some truth in the numbers.

But so many of the articles are... I only make $300k a year... Can I afford to retire in 25 years with my 4 kids and modest $750k home? Um, seriously?

"DO NOT READ BEAUTY MAGAZINES, THEY WILL ONLY MAKE YOU FEEL UGLY"


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Money management for regular and poor people is very boring and restrictive. of course they're not going to do a financial facelift on someone scraping by on $10 an hour. It's boring -> conclusion - save all you can but you're going to be poor forever. hardly fun good reading.

Just look at the average incomes for people in canada. If you are doing around there you're fine. Who cares what other people think or do? There are lots of uber successful people from a money standpoint who are disasters in almost every other part of their lives. Money is cheap and if your life goal is simply to make money you really need to set your goal A LOT higher.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

kork said:


> I guess I'm just trying to find some truth in the numbers.
> 
> But so many of the articles are... I only make $300k a year... Can I afford to retire in 25 years with my 4 kids and modest $750k home? Um, seriously?
> 
> "DO NOT READ BEAUTY MAGAZINES, THEY WILL ONLY MAKE YOU FEEL UGLY"


I usually don't read either beauty magazines or moneysense, but stories about older people with debt make me sad:

«After working all their lives – Mr. Newbery has already retired once – they are in the midst of a severe financial overhaul to cut their debt load of $240,000.

Stories like this are now woven through our retirement dreams and our bank accounts. A recent HSBC survey said 41 per cent of working Canadians believe they can’t adequately prepare for retirement because of debt. In 2011, Statistics Canada delivered hard numbers about our so-called golden years: One in three retirees above 55 have a median debt load of $19,000.

Mr. Newbery and Ms. Bates, a common-law couple together since 2012, have had to sell their $300,000 home and their beloved garden in Courtney, B.C., on Vancouver Island for cheaper digs and solvency.»

Owing $240,000, B.C. couple downsize to save their retirement

More: 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...turn-to-their-homes-for-cash/article27111238/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ber-of-canadians-likely-will/article23776003/

Etc.

So you can pick your "benchmark" I guess - worse than some, better than others, and try to figure out what really worries you (I think for me it would be a disability that would require an extensive care that would eat away all the savings so we'll leave nothing for our daughter...)


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

kork said:


> It's not really eating me up inside. Just something I'm a bit sensitive to and wanted to see if it's the norm or not? Perhaps lots of people who are doing well find their way to this forum like it was mentioned earlier. How many people earn $100k+ salaries consistently or when you're in that range from a single employer, do you go from employed for couple years to unemployed for a year and so on? Tallest trees get cut first right? And perhaps those articles of 30 year olds earning $150k a year salaries trying to manage their finances are the same as the beauty magazines... Young targets and potential long-term subscribers... _"Let's show them that our readers are rich so they'll think they can be the same if the consume our content, that's how we'll get em!"_
> 
> I guess I'm just trying to find some truth in the numbers.
> 
> ...


To be honest. I can only sit at my armchair and say what I say because I know that I have succeeded before by my own hand. If I had failed... I guess I would still be like what I was previously when I was downtrodden and looking at all the success of my friends. I was envious and jealous. 

Afterwards, I met a lot of people who are a LOT richer and capable than me. But this time, I am not envious of them. Part of it is the confidence of knowing that if I have to restart from scratch I can do it again (sort of what I am doing now). Part of it is the knowledge that these people who are in another stratosphere than me all relied on me for advise on certain things and we are linked in mutual benefits that way. We mingle and we exchange stuff from time to time, but when we were together, it was never about who's dick is bigger or who got more powerful friends. It was always about that one topic of passion that we all shared.

That passion at something other than money and status dissolved away the envy and jealousy.


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## crr243 (Nov 2, 2015)

crr243 said:


> To put a different spin on this, I think some of it has to do with where you are and what you're doing.
> 
> Engineering, for example, commands a pretty high salary when you graduate, and increases come pretty rapidly for the first few years as you hit the P.Eng. level, but then it tends to taper off.
> 
> ...


I chimed in a few days ago on this thread, but my wife and I have had a few conversations on the topic of salaries over the last few days.

We're in Alberta now, but we don't like it. My wife grew up on the East coast and I grew up in the bald *** prairie. She wants to move closer to home, and I just want to move away. We've been looking predominantly at Halifax.

As some background, my Salary progression was as follows. The % increase is based on the salary I was paid when I graduated in May, 2009 and includes bonus paid out in the given tax year, i.e. the bonus applicable to the previous year's salary. 

My first job started in September, 2009.
2011: +11%
2012, changed jobs/location: +15%
2013, merit increase and P.Eng promotion: +33%
2014, merit increase: +13%
2015, merit increase: +8%

I was awarded frequently for high performance, presumably outpacing my colleagues a bit given the ~3% average annual salary increases at the company. However, these increases have jaded me. After seeing an 88% gross income increase in 4 years, I see the salaries offered elsewhere and it scares me. I had an offer a couple weeks back for salary that would have been a gross 24% decrease and I didn't think it was high enough. However, it's really only a step back of 2 years in terms of my gross salary. 

In addition, 2 years ago, when I was making 25% less, my wife and I weren't living together and I was doing just fine in my financial plan. Her salary is about 60% of mine and, honestly, is enough by itself to cover our base necessities (base mortgage, condo fees, utilities, fuel, transit pass, home and vehicle insurance, etc). If I think of it that way, my salary is disposable income and fuels our investments (TFSA, RRSP, doubled up mortgage payments, and plans to build our family) and entertainment. 

I'm positive that we could continue to be financially successful with a lower income, but my brain is having a hard time getting past the raw numbers.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

kork said:


> ... How many people earn $100k+ salaries consistently ...


Not sure StatsCanada is tracking "consistently" but someone posted in a thread that in 2009 or so, it was 5% and I posted in this thread that the 2013 number has dropped to about 2.5%.

Unless there's some reason to question the methodology - it seems there are plenty of people to write articles about to leave a misleading impression.




kork said:


> ... or when you're in that range from a single employer, do you go from employed for couple years to unemployed for a year and so on? Tallest trees get cut first right?


Depends on the supply/demand/willingness to move/contacts/skillset of the individual as to how long they are out of work.

I know of some who walked the line to be fired so that they could move onto a higher paying gig while "sticking it to" the old company.


Cheers


And perhaps those articles of 30 year olds earning $150k a year salaries trying to manage their finances are the same as the beauty magazines... Young targets and potential long-term subscribers... _"Let's show them that our readers are rich so they'll think they can be the same if the consume our content, that's how we'll get em!"_

I guess I'm just trying to find some truth in the numbers.

But so many of the articles are... I only make $300k a year... Can I afford to retire in 25 years with my 4 kids and modest $750k home? Um, seriously?

"DO NOT READ BEAUTY MAGAZINES, THEY WILL ONLY MAKE YOU FEEL UGLY"[/QUOTE]


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## crr243 (Nov 2, 2015)

Eclectic12 said:


> Not sure StatsCanada is tracking "consistently" but someone posted in a thread that in 2009 or so, it was 5% and I posted in this thread that the 2013 number has dropped to about 2.5%.


Actually, there were several articles about that just this week. StatsCan released statistics on the top earners (1%, 5%, 10%) from 2013, and that data probably lends itself to a decent rough approximation of $100k earners.

Here is the MoneySense article about the stat release: http://www.moneysense.ca/news/statistics-canada-canadas-top-1-earned-454800-on-average-in-2013/

Top 1%: Cutoff was $222,000
Top 5%: Cutoff was $115,000
Top 10%: Cutoff was $89,000

So, between 5% and 10% of the population made at least $100,000 in 2013.

Of course, this isn't necessarily _consistent_ 100k+ earners.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

crr243 said:


> So, between 5% and 10% of the population made at least $100,000 in 2013.
> 
> Of course, this isn't necessarily _consistent_ 100k+ earners.


For sure. A good chunk of them must be oil and mining guys, unskilled or skilled workers making 50-100k base wages, and nearly double that with overtime (particularly in 2012/2013). Now the overtime is getting slashed and they are taking home way less earnings, or getting laid off.


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

When you're on a financial forum, you are going to be surrounded mostly by people with good jobs. Same with living in an affluent neighborhood.

I know for me I have an odd perspective, as most of my friends make similar money to me, but live in affluent neighborhoods, where they are the "poor" people in the neighborhood. (Making 100-150K whereas the neighbors make double that)

Meanwhile my family and I live in a quiet, but much cheaper area of the city and we are what many around us would consider rich. Our kids are much better off than their classmates, while my friends kids are in the opposite situation. Neither is ideal, both are awkward in their own ways.

But the bottom line is, chasing the Jones' is a waste of time.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

crr243 said:


> Actually, there were several articles about that just this week. StatsCan released statistics on the top earners (1%, 5%, 10%) from 2013, and that data probably lends itself to a decent rough approximation of $100k earners.


Opps ... my bad.

I used the "$150K+ income" number against the total number.

Redoing the calculation with the "$100K+ income" number it ends up with a bit under 7.5%.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm


It's still a small number.


Cheers


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> Opps ... my bad.
> 
> I used the "$150K+ income" number against the total number.
> 
> ...


I don't think that's a small number at all. One out of every 13 people you cross on the street. And the proportion is increasing every year that is on that Statscan link. (one out of 19 people in 2009 to one out of 13 in 2013, the last year o n the chart).


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## Underworld (Aug 26, 2009)

A great post and something I've been through myself.

Here is my feedback:

Being a money forum - the people on this forum are very focused on money and trying to get more of it. Therefore there is a pretty good chance people are going to have a high income relative to the rest of the population as it is something meaningful and important to them and they work to actively improve their situation.
This will be achieved through increasing earning and being frugal (saving more of the money you earn).

Also you will never hear stories of a cousin or brother who earns 30k per year because it is commonplace. Most of the population earns a low to average wage. You never hear about it because its not exciting. Thats why when you hear about how much someone earns it is because it is exceptional. I.e. uncommon.

Regarding cars. If someone has a nice car and they are under 50 years old - they aren't rich. Reason being money spent on depreciating assets is stupid vs putting them into appreciating assets and making them more net worth. When you are 50+ you are getting closer to retirement and can pull money out to get a car. OR if you have millions - you can afford a nice car. Chances are they aren't a millionaire.

Certain ethnicities are more prone to trying to look rich by having a nice house or car. Chances are their net worth isn't amazing as they are spending a lot of non-appreciating things.

The grass is always greener and superficially things sound like people are getting a really good deal. My wife is a teacher and she works her *** off. Before we had kids shed work from 7pm till 10pm after school every day. Not paid for it either. She also leads teacher groups, education sessions when not at school. Also when she is off in the summer, vacation prices are jacked up, so it costs us double to go on holiday.

I work from 5am till 6.30 then drive to work, then work till 4. Then from 8-10/11 I work. If I'm not working in the morning/evening hours I read, study, learn.

We both work really hard - but get a decent income. People will make out like they are flush with money for as little effort as possible put into their job. In reality people who provide the most value to society get paid the most.

I've always got jealous when someone is doing better than me and use that as a driver to push me forward.

And most importantly - MONEY DOES NOT PRODUCE HAPPINESS. Family, friends, experience, achievement and time to yourself I think are key to happiness.

+ Work Hardest
+ Self Discipline
+ Finish what you start
+ Always educate yourself
+ Be quiet and listen to the universe (observe, reflect, adapt)
+ Set Goals


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Very well said. 

And here is an added tidbit...as someone who has interviewed and hired numerous people for individual and managerial roles we looked for these very attributes in a new hire. 

Their backgrounds could have been in a different area but we knew that anyone who possessed these attributes would learn quickly, become an asset to our team, and would advance their careers.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

nobleea said:


> I don't think that's a small number at all ...


Compared to the idea that "everyone is doing better than I am" - it is a small number IMO.

Personal choices, managing one's career, listening to others and other things are going to improve one's ability to shoot for it. At the end of the day, the number is small enough that I would focus more on what I could control versus being bothered about it.


Cheers


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

We make good money but we're older and we didn't always make a lot of money, to say the least. We had to fight for it. We've built up various investments and business opportunities with our spare time, while our friends were on the couch watching TV.

You have to make it happen. It doesn't just come to you.

Meanwhile, it's important to disregard what other people say. People are as honest about their salary as they are about their fuel economy.

I have a diesel 1-ton truck with dual rear wheels. Do you have any idea how many people in online forums have the same or similar truck and regularly pull down 30mpg doing 80mph on the highway? Most of them. Meanwhile, I get 16.5mpg at 50mph... under ideal conditions.

Once you get into management, you realize the people making $100K per year are actually earning $65K per year while the folks pulling down $140K are actually pulling down $85. There are a few exceptions, sure, but mostly people don't earn what they say.

Meanwhile, every boat being sold on eBay does 100+ mph. Every sports car does 10s quarter miles.

People exaggerate. Part of being successful is learning to separate the wheat from the chaff. There is some amazing information on the Internet. Our job is to find the information needle in the Internet haystack.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

^ I don't think there is rampant lying going on in CMF. I can see the motivation to lie in real life more than an anonymous online forum...

Myself I sometimes feel the need to lie in real life and say less than I make. I make 130k. I've often said "just over 100k". Turns out I should have said "just under 100k" as I often get the "woaa" comments and jealous looks because of some perceived specialness of making more than 100k...


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I wouldn't pay any attention to ANY forum that would have ME as a member!


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

kork said:


> This is exactly my point Moneytoo. What am I doing wrong where *everyone else is doing awesome*? Part owner in a family company... I know of few of them...


EVERYONE ELSE, Kork? I would guess that practically nobody you know is in the financial position this family is in of being able to save $113,400 a year. That's very unusual, and if you're going to compare yourself to that, you're going to be a disappointed person for your whole life. It's perfectly normal to have times when you wish you could afford what you see other people doing, but you seem to have developed an obsession about it, and I think it's time you grew up and learned to appreciate the fact that you are in a financial position yourself that many people would envy.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

SpendLessEarnMore said:


> I'm just a year older than you with a daughter to raise and I forced my wife to quit her job...


You FORCED your wife to quit her job? Where do you live - Saudi Arabia?


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Karen said:


> EVERYONE ELSE, Kork? I would guess that practically nobody you know is in the financial position this family is in of being able to save $113,400 a year. That's very unusual, and if you're going to compare yourself to that, you're going to be a disappointed person for your whole life. It's perfectly normal to have times when you wish you could afford what you see other people doing, but you seem to have developed an obsession about it, and I think it's time you grew up and learned to appreciate the fact that you are in a financial position yourself that many people would envy.


Obsession? No, it's not an obsession at all. It's just something that's on my mind from time to time. I was just posting because I wanted to know what others thought. That's all. 

In the book "If You Can" there's a part that reads:

_"A plumber making $100,000 per year was far more likely to be a millionaire than an attorney with the same income, because the latter's peer group was far harder to keep up with."_

So, here's a another 6 figure income as an example. Secondly, my peer group is hard to keep up with. Doctors, lawyers and other professionals. I drive up in a 10 year old vehicle that's rusting a bit and friends are pulling up in Beamers and $60-$70-$100k cars. I'm not about to abandon my friends because they have nice cars or anything and, like I said before, I don't even really care because I know I could go out and just buy a $100k car. But my brain says "that would be silly Kork." With that said, it creates the impression that everyone is doing really well.

It's easy to get caught up in your own search bubble.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

fraser said:


> I would not concern myself with what other people earn, say they earn, or what other people do or say they do.
> 
> I would only concern myself with me and my family, the choices that we make, and the outcomes we desire.
> 
> ...


+1 here as well


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## SpendLessEarnMore (Aug 7, 2013)

Karen said:


> You FORCED your wife to quit her job? Where do you live - Saudi Arabia?


sarcasm ... It was a verbal force 

I agree with your comment that we should be appreciative of the financial positions that we are in. I've been questioning myself lately with my newfound success in the stock market and forex. And I read that 75% of Canadians report between 25k to 50k income and just over 200k report income over $100k. I'm on track to make 6 figures and wonder what I have done to deserve this success. Everyday I am appreciative and never compare my lifestyle with others. 

But I worked my butt off to get to where I am today. I set long term and mid term goals. I think the OP should set goals in life.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

kork said:


> Secondly, my peer group is hard to keep up with. Doctors, lawyers and other professionals. I drive up in a 10 year old vehicle that's rusting a bit and friends are pulling up in Beamers and $60-$70-$100k cars. I'm not about to abandon my friends because they have nice cars or anything and, like I said before, I don't even really care because I know I could go out and just buy a $100k car. But my brain says "that would be silly Kork." With that said, it creates the impression that everyone is doing really well.
> 
> It's easy to get caught up in your own search bubble.


After reading this, I think you are perfectly normal.

You aren't having a "jealous that other people make more money" issue, it's a "discovering that being responsible is less fun than being irresponsible" issue.

I think all of us responsible people have these thoughts, I certainly do. I could easily spend 70k+/year and still not even be putting myself in a financially unstable position, still saving a good chunk of money, completely responsible. I choose to spend only 30-40k/year instead. It's not as fun, obviously, but I have long term goals. Being responsible is boring, sometimes I really get the urge to buy a Camaro, but usually it passes in a day or two.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

kork said:


> So, here's a another 6 figure income as an example. Secondly, my peer group is hard to keep up with. Doctors, lawyers and other professionals. I drive up in a 10 year old vehicle that's rusting a bit and friends are pulling up in Beamers and $60-$70-$100k cars. I'm not about to abandon my friends because they have nice cars or anything and, like I said before, I don't even really care because I know I could go out and just buy a $100k car. But my brain says "that would be silly Kork." With that said, it creates the impression that everyone is doing really well.
> 
> It's easy to get caught up in your own search bubble.


you also need to realize that you live once, and if you REALLY want 50-100k car and have the funds for it sometimes illogical decisions can make you happy inside... what exactly is the point of working hard all your life and be the richest guy in the cemetery? maybe that's what your doctors, lawyers, etc friends are doing, simply enjoying life? there has to be a balance in life


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

kork,

I always feel the way you are feeling. Every day of my life. I am a single guy, 25yrs old, make $40k/year and my net worth (consisting of real estate, cash & liquid investments) is about $110k.

I will say that there is never enough money. I constantly want more and more of it. I wish my salary was much higher and I feel that if my salary WAS higher that I would be much happier. A larger salary would allow me to save much more and have the freedom that I want.

On the flip slide, like indexxx has somewhat said..

I have the highest net worth I have ever had. I have the most things I have ever had. And yet... I am probably the most unhappy that I have ever been.

I live with tenants that order pizza, chinese food and go out and do things.
I eat mr. noodles, pop a multivitamin and sit at home watching movies and trying to save money.

On the outside, their life looks great and I'm always jealous of the money they spend (and don't have). But on the outside to other people my age, my life looks great because I have property, multiple vehicles, investments, etc. It's all relative.

Just remember - wealth isn't about how much money you have. It's about how many options you have. Money plays a factor in your options, obviously. But that is not always the case.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Just remember - wealth isn't about how much money you have. It's about how many options you have. Money plays a factor in your options, obviously. But that is not always the case.


Profound KaeJS. That is quotable right there, I must remember it.

Now to bust your balls a bit, you are still making 40k in your job? Wasn't that the case 3 or so years ago???

Have you been working towards increasing your earnings side in addition to reducing your spending side (which you've obviously mastered, and probably peaked at) ?


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

You are right, peterk. My salary hasn't changed much in the last 3 years.

I have switched jobs and no longer commute which saves me about $350/month in gas costs, but the salary is the same. I have been slacking on finding higher compensation, but it seems as though the only way to do that is to:

A) Get more education
B) Work for myself

or... C) I could always move out to Fort McMurray and work with ya :biggrin:


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## Bobbyjohn (Jul 28, 2015)

if you ask me, a good start would be fixing up minimum wage to an actual survivable mark.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

It is survivable... if you don't have children, a vehicle, or a house.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Ha. She's snowing right now, the sun sets at 4pm, and it's only getting worse! I'll be trapped indoors till April. Like you said, wealth is having options...

And that doesn't sound too bad. I would definitely move from Mississauga area to tri-city area for making the same money. Good for you. I hope your learning and self-work goals eventually pay off for you


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## Melicoy (Nov 15, 2015)

KORK

Choices. Everyday we make them and we are EXACTLY where we are today because of all the choices we have made.
It is OK to be where you are. Looking at others as inspiration is ok too. 

Your friends have 60-80k cars. That's ok. If they are your friends they are ok with you having a rust bucket. Never abandon your friends. True friends dont do that on both sides. Your side and theirs.

I kind of understand where you are coming from Kork.
1. You are programmed to save money and have security. Not pay cheque to pay cheque.
2. You want to live the life you read about but that would mean increasing your yearly income or spend more money
3. Both of which you dont want to do for fear of the consequences. 
4. Reading those stories makes you feel good and a little upset at the same time but you want to keep reading them.


Putting a label on it like envy or jealousy DOES NOTHING (and over achiever) It is what it is.

Seriously where you are in life right NOW, is GREAT!

Please make a list of goals for the next 5 years write it down and post it on the inside of the front door. Include your wife too please.

You need something else of PASSION to keep you busy

Have you read "Rich dad poor dad"?

Your QUESTIONS WERE:

"How do you stop caring about what your engineer Brother-in-law or kids friends parents are earning? "

Your focus on all your questions seem to be the same. "How do I STOP looking at them"
How about changing how you look at them as bad and say to yourself "I love looking at other peoples lives and its ok because I love MY LIFE too" 
This is what I love about my life.. 1…. 2….. 3….. 4…..
This is what I love about their life… 1…. 2….. 3….. 4…..

Your statement "I go to my kids school (we live in an affluent neighbourhood) and can't help but feel as though everyone is earning more. It makes me feel inferior and completely self-imposed. Not sure why?

Really you dont know why? Let's go to the extreme 
Suppose you made 1MM a year? Would you still feel that way? Would you look down on them and then pick someone that makes 4MM and say the same thing?

What if you made 20k per year? Would you then give a care about what they make?

In conclusion. 
You are an overachiever and that's OK
You love life, wife and kids.
You have a set of principals, morals and ethic that are important to you and that's ok
Your choice to read, look and question people who make more money than you do is based on impressing your friends family and co workers. And that's ok too.
You require more pats on the back from your friends wife and family.
You need to learn how to pat yourself on the back.

If you do the easy things in life then life will get hard
If you do the hard things in life then life will get easy
If you do the smart things in life then life will stop playing games with you.
You know what the smart things are, you just need to take action.
If you pat someone on the back they will pat you on the back. If not then move to a new friend.
How do you move to a new friend? Easy, stop talking in the negative and always talk positive. The negative people will move on automatically! 

Chris


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