# Online grocery delivery



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

What online grocers are you using? I tried grocery gateway and Walmart for my parents (I’m in isolation). They live in a large city. The earliest delivery window they had was in April.

Is this the turnaround time we are Experiencing now?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> What online grocers are you using? I tried grocery gateway and Walmart for my parents (I’m in isolation). They live in a large city. The earliest delivery window they had was in April.
> 
> Is this the turnaround time we are Experiencing now?


I have heard that the big players have a major shortage of delivery resources. Walmart is reportedly hiring tens of thousands across their operations to support these services. Until then, the best option would be to try Express Pickup whereby you shop on line, and when the order is ready, you get phoned, and you go to their store for the order to be loaded into your vehicle. 

We have yet to try the PC Express pickup (Superstore) but the last time I was in the store, I saw at least 4 employees with carts gathering goods for Express pick up. For now though, we will still go to the store, maybe taking advantage of their '1 hour senior time' first thing in the morning in-store shopping. Just hate the thought of grocery shopping at 7am though.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We came back from Mexico on Thursday. Our daughter placed an order for us early in the week for a Friday AM delivery. Arrived on Friday AM, and at the time they quoted. Left six bags on our porch. It came from Superstore Calgary.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> What online grocers are you using? I tried grocery gateway and Walmart for my parents (I’m in isolation). They live in a large city. The earliest delivery window they had was in April.
> 
> Is this the turnaround time we are Experiencing now?


You can try PC Express with Instacart delivery.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Can't speak to cities but our local small town Foodland has always taken telephone orders from Senior Citizens and delivered to their homes. They have now started to include anyone who is self-isolating, in that program. They charged seniors $3 in town, $5 farther out, along with a $40 minimum order. I don't know if those same numbers now apply but even if they do, they are no real issue.

Now is a time when we are seeing some advantages to small town living that were not obvious before.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

We called then emailed order to our local Foodland grocery. Owner delivered including frozen food within 1/2 hr. No delivery charge! Normally they charge $10.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Me too. Can't speak for cities, but out in off-grid land, some Campbell River stores will shop and deliver orders to the mail plane or WayWest Charters and, if a few people order together, delivery costs are cheap.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i guess the grocery delivery pattern is irregular across canada, is probably very localized

i've been ordering online for years from one tiny grocery "chain." It's only 3 local stores that barely qualify size-wise as supermarkets.

their 2 downtown stores are so small, cramped & crowded, with zero parking, that customers won't shop in the physical stores any more. Customers have switched to online instead, which this particular tiny chain runs out of their more spacious premises in far northern exurb Laval.

they're keeping up with online orders although working extra hard. The delay this past week was only 48 hours from order submission to delivery, although that time frame could have easily lengthened by now.

meanwhile, big online grocers like walmart & metro richelieu have 10 days wait time for delivery here.


what i'd like to see are scheduled community delivery days. Customers living in a particular district (collection of postal codes) would all get $1 off delivery fee if they would take delivery on, say, wednesday mornings.

i'm thinking of this for the improvement in air quality that would come from less vehicle traffic. It's crazy to think of so many small delivery vans all darting around & criss-crossing a city, all day long, every day.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> The earliest delivery window they had was in April.
> 
> Is this the turnaround time we are Experiencing now?



undoubtedly yes, for some big chains in some cities/districts.

one could get used to it, when you think abbouddit. Restaurants & other food-serving establishents - hospitals, shelters, university dorms & cafeterias - all operate on long-term plans w advance menu planning & ordering. Ten days is nothing.

it's only retail householders who still like to shop the specials while choosing their basic bread & butter by hand.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Here, if not in the mood for delivery, one can always procure one's own food.
















Oh, the hardships up with which one must put.

I expect Eder and others of the south seas sailing crowd must be similarly circumstanced. One can always catch a marlin or something. I have been places where flying fish will even help out by flying right into the boat.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> Here, if not in the mood for delivery, one can always procure one's own food.
> 
> 
> View attachment 20036
> ...



what salacious pix are you trying to post ^^ there? the message i get is that i do not have authorization to view this picture. Something about the moderator. 

maybe jas4 is reverse parental editing the internet pix i am to be allowed to see

anyhow the flying fish that jumps ker-plop into the sailboat, begging to be fried as steaks in the galley ...

talk about instant grocery delivery


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Try "from URL" and then uncheck the "retrieve remote file and reference locally"

Or just put







tags around the URL


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I take it m3s that you are unable to open the attachments described as DSCN0482 etc.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> Now I can open them here. Anyone else? I cannot open those in hp's quote (above), showing Attachments 20036 and 20038. Not sure why.


still no


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Well, I'll give up for now. Maybe later. Try this one before I quit. 

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ad240/Allnamesunavailable/The Retreat/.highres/DSCN0482.jpg

[


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> I take it m3s that you are unable to open the attachments described as DSCN0482 etc.



i've never understood why cmffers don't post their images for all the public to see? why all this secrecy about having to be logged in?

to post for public view, one can either pick up the image addy from "source" or else transfer it from one's own device to a 3rd party public host like flickr, then download to cmf forum from flickr

the first method doesn't always work. The 2nd method always works but it's more trouble.

either way, the result is a gorgeous big full-colour picture which all can see, whether they are logged in as cmf members or not.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think there has been an attachment problem ever since the site owners started their most recent software upgrades


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My son lives in Toronto and uses Metro ,this week it took 4 days to get his delivery up from the normal 3 days turn around.I use Walmart or Amazon for many things but this week we called the local butcher and he allowed us to order over the phone and pay with Visa .He then asked what car we drive and they came out with the bag for us.We got the animal feed the same way this week.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> I think there has been an attachment problem ever since the site owners started their most recent software upgrades


That I think explains it. I have not encountered difficulty in the past.



humble_pie said:


> to post for public view, one can either pick up the image addy from "source" or else transfer it from one's own device to a 3rd party public host like flickr, then download to cmf forum from flickr
> 
> the first method doesn't always work. The 2nd method always works but it's more trouble.


I put the pics on Photobucket, which I think might qualify as a third party public host, although maybe not, since there, one can choose a "private" setting. I posted links to Photobucket above (which are those appearing below as well). They will open just fine for me with Google Chrome. But I guess that's because they were put up with this Apple computer and maybe it is recognized somehow. 

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ad240/Allnamesunavailable/The Retreat/.highres/DSCN0480.jpg


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ad240/Allnamesunavailable/The Retreat/.highres/DSCN0482.jpg


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

marina628 said:


> My son lives in Toronto and uses Metro ,this week it took 4 days to get his delivery up from the normal 3 days turn around.I use Walmart or Amazon for many things but this week we called the local butcher and he allowed us to order over the phone and pay with Visa .He then asked what car we drive and they came out with the bag for us.We got the animal feed the same way this week.


No doubt available delivery times will be farther out than in the past but all that means is people should be thinking about placing their orders farther in advance. I've heard of Walmarts with a 10 day wait for delivery now. Our local Foodland is still same day delivery but even that may change.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> what i'd like to see are scheduled community delivery days. Customers living in a particular district (collection of postal codes) would all get $1 off delivery fee if they would take delivery on, say, wednesday mornings.
> 
> i'm thinking of this for the improvement in air quality that would come from less vehicle traffic. It's crazy to think of so many small delivery vans all darting around & criss-crossing a city, all day long, every day.


amazon US does this now

if you select a slower delivery option you get $1 voucher towards digital services. renting a new movie for example is $5


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> No doubt available delivery times will be farther out than in the past but all that means is people should be thinking about placing their orders farther in advance. I've heard of Walmarts with a 10 day wait for delivery now. Our local Foodland is still same day delivery but even that may change.


Yes when he ordered last week he ordered double of what he usually does in case some slow down ,he does not drive and has been working for home already 2 weeks.We went to drop off stuff and doing his laundry here so he does not have to go down to the laundry room in his building ,did 11 loads this weekend so he has been piling it up a bit lol


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> No doubt available delivery times will be farther out than in the past but all that means is people should be thinking about placing their orders farther in advance. I've heard of Walmarts with a 10 day wait for delivery now. Our local Foodland is still same day delivery but even that may change.


Walmart pickup is backlogged for about 4 days, PC at the NoFrills is still open, but they're working flat out in store.
I went to Costco, half empty, NoFrills was limiting to 100people, but the line outside the store is small.
Picked up my online order at ToysRus.

Quickest shopping weekend of my life! No crowds!


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I did an online order from Loblaws in London Ont yesterday, same day delivery, it only took about an hour start to finish. Impressive!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Spudd said:


> I did an online order from Loblaws in London Ont yesterday, same day delivery, it only took about an hour start to finish. Impressive!


It uses Instacart, which is probably less backlogged than the in-store picking (using staff).


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wanted to try Loblaws online but the wife said nope. She is going in a couple of days. 

She has an N95 mask and gloves, so she should be alright, but I wish she would give it a try.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I wanted to try Loblaws online but the wife said nope. She is going in a couple of days.
> 
> She has an N95 mask and gloves, so she should be alright, but I wish she would give it a try.


They had a deal for $30 off your first order over $100, we used that at the beginning of the month when we stocked up for COVID-19


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

actually i can see that the big grocer chains in canada are already sorting by postal code

in another thread i posted how shopping carts in some systems won't even start until customer has entered full address w postal code, at which moment he will be shown available time slots for delivery to his specific address.

i just posted in another thread how it's obvious that the big online grocer chains are aggregating deliveries for particular districts/zones/neighbourhoods within their overall delivery region, then loading trucks w deliveries for specific postal code zones each day.

it's a lot smarter than having millions of individual consumers drive out like maniacs every week w their grocery flyers, then drive every crazy which way all over the city to pick up special items on sale.

so far i've been ordering non-grocery items from walmart & couple other companies, haven't tried amazon yet. I've noticed that walmart *says* it's shipped (it also bills CC at that moment) but in fact i can see from tracking info that the parcel/box doesn't leave walmart warehouse for 2 to even 4 more days ...

light bulb !! ok now i see ... what is happening is that walmart aggregates orders by delivery postal code, only when it gets enough orders for one district/zone/neighbourhood does it then ship out to the carrier. Then but not before. IE walmart waits for enough neighbourhood orders to pile up that makes it economical to ship to door. Now is that smart or what.

i'm always choosing standard delivery, it's free. Express del is quite a bit more expensive.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> I put the pics on Photobucket, which I think might qualify as a third party public host, although maybe not, since there, one can choose a "private" setting. I posted links to Photobucket above (which are those appearing below as well). They will open just fine for me with Google Chrome. But I guess that's because they were put up with this Apple computer and maybe it is recognized somehow.
> 
> https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ad240/Allnamesunavailable/The Retreat/.highres/DSCN0480.jpg
> 
> ...



ooh! Sah lay SHUSS!!

those links are opening fine

i've posted pictures to a 3rd party website but i always make sure to choose "public" because it's a photo hosting account that i only use for sharing pix to public


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Online shopping and delivery is reminiscent of the foregone days of the Eatons catalogue.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Online shopping and delivery is reminiscent of the foregone days of the Eatons catalogue.


I remember growing up we had milk delivery to the door. 

We would leave the old milk bottles on the porch with an order form in one of them (that we checked the boxes of the stuff we wanted) and the milkman would come around very early in the morning and fill the order and leave a new form to fill out for next time. They offered bread, eggs, milk and a few other things. Kinda like online shopping for groceries without computers.

ltr


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Houses used to have a little built in milk delivery door too. Same thing could have been used to prevent the parcel pirates

Now amazon can deliver inside your house/garage/car if you have smart locks


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> I remember growing up we had milk delivery to the door.
> 
> We would leave the old milk bottles on the porch with an order form in one of them (that we checked the boxes of the stuff we wanted) and the milkman would come around very early in the morning and fill the order and leave a new form to fill out for next time. They offered bread, eggs, milk and a few other things. Kinda like online shopping for groceries without computers.


We've come full circle in some ways ... 
That milk delivery brings back memories, I had to google the drink they used to deliver called "Beep", no long made.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

m3s said:


> Houses used to have a little built in milk delivery door too. Same thing could have been used to prevent the parcel pirates
> 
> Now amazon can deliver inside your house/garage/car if you have smart locks


All the houses in my neighborhood (50's neighborhood) still have the milk doors. They're all full of insulation now, but it shows how the builders adapted at the time to the needs of the people. With so many people getting parcels delivered to the door now with online shopping, hopefully they'll come up with some secure method that doesn't involve someone entering my garage or home.

ltr


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> All the houses in my neighborhood (50's neighborhood) still have the milk doors. They're all full of insulation now, but it shows how the builders adapted at the time to the needs of the people. With so many people getting parcels delivered to the door now with online shopping, hopefully they'll come up with some secure method that doesn't involve someone entering my garage or home.
> 
> ltr


Have you seen these? https://www.costco.ca/clevermade-parcel-lockbox.product.100535095.html


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> It uses Instacart, which is probably less backlogged than the in-store picking (using staff).


I am trying this out for the first time. I assume we're both talking about delivery.pcexpress.ca

I placed an order Monday, and they say it will be delivered Saturday. At times they were showing no delivery times available at all.

Question for people using this: do you find you're actually receiving the items you order? Or will they be out of stock at the time they do the shopping? My order detail currently says "Received" but is not yet In Progress. I wonder if these items will still be in stock when they fill this order 3 days from now.

(I'm in a 14 day self quarantine so I'm really hoping this order works)


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I am trying this out for the first time. I assume we're both talking about delivery.pcexpress.ca
> 
> Question for people using this: do you find you're actually receiving the items you order? Or will they be out of stock at the time they do the shopping?


When you place the order they ask you to pick substitutes in case what you order is out of stock. I did that for all my items, but it turned out that none of them were out of stock.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> I am trying this out for the first time. I assume we're both talking about delivery.pcexpress.ca
> 
> I placed an order Monday, and they say it will be delivered Saturday. At times they were showing no delivery times available at all.


So can you post what the extra costs are with their delivery when you get it?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

cainvest said:


> So can you post what the extra costs are with their delivery when you get it?


When I did it, it was an $8 delivery charge plus $2 tip to the driver. So $10 altogether.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Spudd said:


> When I did it, it was an $8 delivery charge plus $2 tip to the driver. So $10 altogether.


I looked at it online, their website says ...
5% of your total order plus $3.99 for 2-hour delivery for orders over $35.
Plus they say there could be a "Busy fee" applied with no mention (until you do the checkout) of what it is ... weird.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

What is the purpose of asking about delivery fees? 

Which is more important, protecting your health or saving a few dollars? Everything does not have to have an acceptable dollar cost attached to it. IF I were to say to you, pay me $100 or you will die, would that change the equation?

It costs what it costs, ignore it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> What is the purpose of asking about delivery fees?
> 
> Which is more important, protecting your health or saving a few dollars? Everything does not have to have an acceptable dollar cost attached to it. IF I were to say to you, pay me $100 or you will die, would that change the equation?
> 
> It costs what it costs, ignore it.


If one store charges 25% more than another store to deliver the same products, I'll take the cheaper one thank you. 
What's the difference there in health risks?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> If one store charges 25% more than another store to deliver the same products, I'll take the cheaper one thank you.
> What's the difference there in health risks?


If one store can deliver in 7 days and another only in 10 days, I'll take the faster delivery thank you. Even if they charge 25% more to do so. 

I can accept however that people do have different priorities. If someone is poor, the money will matter more I suppose. There is no difference in health risk, only in how far ahead you will need to plan.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> If one store can deliver in 7 days and another only in 10 days, I'll take the faster delivery thank you. Even if they charge 25% more to do so.
> 
> I can accept however that people do have different priorities. If someone is poor, the money will matter more I suppose. There is no difference in health risk, only in how far ahead you will need to plan.


Yup, just planning ahead in case I can't (or don't want to) go to the store in the future. Also, I'll be able to take the cheaper route because I planned ahead.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Yup, just planning ahead in case I can't (or don't want to) go to the store in the future. Also, I'll be able to take the cheaper route because I planned ahead.


I tried Walmart and grocery gateway today. One is booked Solid for four days and doesn’t show any further dates.....the other has an opening apr 15. instacart also saying “no shoppers available”.

are others facing the same?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ I just checked too and could not get a delivery slot.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

And so it begins.......my parents live in a major city and both are immune-comprimised. im about 90 mins away in isolation. A friend shopped for them and delivered the goods. I’ve tried to order ahead and get their next shop delivered. Apr 15 is the next time slot open. Trust me....when people start to feel they have no options, fear takes over, and they will go out and get their food. i appreciate the thoughts about changing our thinking.....it’s not as easy as it appears to be. The “plan ahead” mantra makes it difficult When last week, you could get food delivered in 2 days, now it’s taking almost 3 weeks. People WILL go out to buy their groceries......how do we make it safer? Alphabetical assignment for shopping days? Restrict # entrants? Dedicated senior days? Just ideas....


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The supermarkets are ramping up their number of delivery drivers and in-store shoppers for pick up orders. Give them time.

One of the problems is the speed at which everything is having to try and change. Demand is simply increasing faster than supply can be put in place. But they will catch up over time, just as the supply of masks, ventilators, etc. will catch up if we can keep the speed of the spread down as much as possible.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

agreed. But it will take longer then people have the patience for. I’m surprised at the masks and ventilators shortage. All experts agreed a pandemic was inevitable. It seems the world was still caught off guard a bit. And when this over, the isolationists are gonna have a field day. They will argue that “essential” items need to be manufactured at home. No sense having masks made overseas. They will say We need to take care of “our own”.



Longtimeago said:


> The supermarkets are ramping up their number of delivery drivers and in-store shoppers for pick up orders. Give them time.
> 
> One of the problems is the speed at which everything is having to try and change. Demand is simply increasing faster than supply can be put in place. But they will catch up over time, just as the supply of masks, ventilators, etc. will catch up if we can keep the speed of the spread down as much as possible.
> [/QUOTE


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> People WILL go out to buy their groceries......how do we make it safer? Alphabetical assignment for shopping days? Restrict # entrants? Dedicated senior days? Just ideas....


Some stores are already limiting the number going in. Many stores here have the first hour (7-8am) dedicated (not sure how they enforce this?) to those at high risk.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> And so it begins.......my parents live in a major city and both are immune-comprimised. im about 90 mins away in isolation. A friend shopped for them and delivered the goods. I’ve tried to order ahead and get their next shop delivered. Apr 15 is the next time slot open. Trust me....when people start to feel they have no options, fear takes over, and they will go out and get their food. i appreciate the thoughts about changing our thinking.....it’s not as easy as it appears to be. The “plan ahead” mantra makes it difficult When last week, you could get food delivered in 2 days, now it’s taking almost 3 weeks. People WILL go out to buy their groceries......how do we make it safer? Alphabetical assignment for shopping days? Restrict # entrants? Dedicated senior days? Just ideas....


I can appreciate your concern for your parents Money172375 but I have to ask, when did their friend shop for them and how many weeks of supplies did they stock up on then? Your date of April 15 is 3 weeks from now. Do they not have enough food to eat for 3 weeks? If not, can the friend not shop for them one more time?

IF the supermarkets cannot ramp up delivery and pick-up fast enough over the coming month or so, then there may well be some system put in place to prioritize the more vulnerable. That step will likely come from our government if necessary I think.

One thing your parents could do if they are running short of supplies is order meals delivered. Some restaurants in major cities are saying that while people are going to places like Timmy's or MickeyD's for pick-up or deliveries, they are not ordering from the independent restaurants that they used to go to to eat on a Friday night or whatever. Ask your parents to try ordering a meal delivery from a nearby restaurant and see how that works out. Meal delivery obviously is not 3 weeks from now. Supplementing their supplies with meal deliveries a couple of times a week may take care of the problem till your April 15 delivery slot.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Some stores are already limiting the number going in. Many stores here have the first hour (7-8am) dedicated (not sure how they enforce this?) to those at high risk.


I bet the fisherman out there are excited for the lakes to melt! Daily limit of 25 perch where I am!


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> I can appreciate your concern for your parents Money172375 but I have to ask, when did their friend shop for them and how many weeks of supplies did they stock up on then? Your date of April 15 is 3 weeks from now. Do they not have enough food to eat for 3 weeks? If not, can the friend not shop for them one more time?
> 
> IF the supermarkets cannot ramp up delivery and pick-up fast enough over the coming month or so, then there may well be some system put in place to prioritize the more vulnerable. That step will likely come from our government if necessary I think.
> 
> One thing your parents could do if they are running short of supplies is order meals delivered. Some restaurants in major cities are saying that while people are going to places like Timmy's or MickeyD's for pick-up or deliveries, they are not ordering from the independent restaurants that they used to go to to eat on a Friday night or whatever. Ask your parents to try ordering a meal delivery from a nearby restaurant and see how that works out. Meal delivery obviously is not 3 weeks from now. Supplementing their supplies with meal deliveries a couple of times a week may take care of the problem till your April 15 delivery slot.


they had groceries delivered last week when time slots were 2 days out. Who would have guessed last week, that we would be facing a 3 week delay now. Who can say it won’t be 5 weeks next week? I’m sure they are okay for a month, but would need to start rationing in the the latter parts. I’ll recommend the restaurant delivery.....thank you. I think you may be slightly over confident in industry’s ability to switch to delivery vs in-store. I would have thought the same a few weeks ago.....but I haven’t seen disinfectant spray, wipes, toilet paper or sanitizing gel for 3 weeks. Apparently the only way to get TP is to wait outside a retailer before they open to try and grab their limited stock.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Yup, just planning ahead in case I can't (or don't want to) go to the store in the future. Also, I'll be able to take the cheaper route because I planned ahead.



Keeping in mind I haven't received this order yet, the PC Express Delivery site shows me:

$8 delivery fee. Would be a bit lower if I had a larger order, possibly.
$2 service fee
$6 tip (my choice)


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

One of the issues is density Money172375. The problems are all greater in cities than in small towns. Our local Foodland is still providing same day delivery including toilet paper for those who want it.

Again, I will say it will take time for supermarkets to catch up with demand, both for specific products and for delivery. 

Consider all the people who are currently and suddenly out of work due to the closing of all 'non-essential' businesses. While they can apply for EI etc. and get some relief there, it alone will not necessarily be enough. I would imagine quite a few of them would be willing to take on a side job delivering groceries. I imagine many of them are already looking for side jobs to help tide them over through this current situation and until things go back to 'normal.'

The real issue I see slowing that down is insurance. You need to change your insurance (and pay more) if you take on a delivery job using your own car. Social distancing means delivery drivers are in demand. Do they have proper coverage?

I suspect some will ignore the problem of their insurance and I also suspect if it becomes necessary, the government may ask insurers to forego increases or compensate them for doing so. Again, it is the SPEED at which this is all happening and it just isn't possible to know beforehand what changes will need to be made. As Trudeau keeps saying, 'nothing is off the table'. This may be one fo those things that will go on the table.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm concerned about this method of ordering so far ahead. I placed my order Monday for delivery Saturday. When I look at the site now, it shows that only 2 of my 8 chosen items are in stock. So nearly everything I chose is currently OUT of stock.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Keeping in mind I haven't received this order yet, the PC Express Delivery site shows me:
> 
> $8 delivery fee. Would be a bit lower if I had a larger order, possibly.
> $2 service fee
> $6 tip (my choice)


If you don't mind me asking, how much was your grocery order before the fees?
Also, was that $2 what they state as a "busy fee"?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how much was your grocery order before the fees?
> Also, was that $2 what they state as a "busy fee"?


The size of the order was $25 so pretty small. I think I saw somewhere that the fees drop when ordering more than $35.

The only description I see for the $2 is "Service Fee".


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I'm concerned about this method of ordering so far ahead. I placed my order Monday for delivery Saturday. When I look at the site now, it shows that only 2 of my 8 chosen items are in stock. So nearly everything I chose is currently OUT of stock.


EIGHT items? You are asking to take up a delivery slot for 8 items? Please list your 8 items james4beach. Clearly, you are not putting in an order for 2-3 weeks of groceries. If your 8 items were regular grocery items, they could substitute unless you insisted on 'it's this or nothing'. I suspect that if you list your 8 items for us to see, they will be items KNOWN to be in short supply like toilet paper and disinfectant sprays,etc. I really would like to see a list of your 8 items james4beach.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

One way we can all HELP in the current situation is to not continue to shop as we did in the past. I wouldn't dream of asking my supermarket to take up a delivery slot just to bring me milk, bread, eggs and a few vegetables. Something I would have walked in and picked up in the past. I will only ask them to deliver a full list of groceries to last us a couple of weeks at a time.

That provides maximum efficiency for each delivery slot. Right now, the delivery slots are a valuable commodity, not to be wasted on small orders of a few items at a time. Change your thinking.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I'm concerned about this method of ordering so far ahead. I placed my order Monday for delivery Saturday. When I look at the site now, it shows that only 2 of my 8 chosen items are in stock. So nearly everything I chose is currently OUT of stock.


I fear this as well. Walmart seems (unconfirmed) to”hide” any products that are out of stock. I've ordered some covid19 prep items....cough drops, disinfectant wipes, tp. I anxious to see if we actually get them


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

(deleted)


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Decided not to tell us what items james4beach?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I wouldn't dream of asking my supermarket to take up a delivery slot just to bring me milk, bread, eggs and a few vegetables.


Weird thinking IMO .... if that's all I needed (and was unable to go to the store myself) then that's what I'd order.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Decided not to tell us what items james4beach?


He doesn't post past noon, you'll have to wait until tomorrow ... if he decides to reply.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Weird thinking IMO .... if that's all I needed (and was unable to go to the store myself) then that's what I'd order.


Why do you think it is 'weird'. I gave you the reasoning. Taking up a scarce commodity such as a delivery slot under the present circumstances is not efficient use of a scarce service. To do so is SELFISH cainvest. Can you not see that?

Where does this 'all I needed' come from? Are you not going to need some groceries for next week or the week after? If you are going to place an order, why can't you place an order for more that you may not need today but will need tomorrow?

It's OLD thinking again cainvest. We have to act in the ways that make BEST sense NOW. Larger orders, less frequently in this case.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I'm concerned about this method of ordering so far ahead. I placed my order Monday for delivery Saturday. When I look at the site now, it shows that only 2 of my 8 chosen items are in stock. So nearly everything I chose is currently OUT of stock.


I think the picker will ask you for substitutions when they collect your order. At least they should!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> I fear this as well. Walmart seems (unconfirmed) to”hide” any products that are out of stock. I've ordered some covid19 prep items....cough drops, disinfectant wipes, tp. I anxious to see if we actually get them


Not likely.

When they are picking these orders, they are pulling from the retail shelf. If there is nothing on the shelf, you don't get what you ordered. Now, a lot of times these orders might get picked in the morning before the store opens, so if there is stock that arrived overnight you would have a better chance of getting it before the hoarding hordes can snatch it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Why do you think it is 'weird'. I gave you the reasoning. Taking up a scarce commodity such as a delivery slot under the present circumstances is not efficient use of a scarce service. To do so is SELFISH cainvest. Can you not see that?
> 
> Where does this 'all I needed' come from? Are you not going to need some groceries for next week or the week after? If you are going to place an order, why can't you place an order for more that you may not need today but will need tomorrow?
> 
> It's OLD thinking again cainvest. We have to act in the ways that make BEST sense NOW. Larger orders, less frequently in this case.


It's weird because of your reasoning!

I have lots of food that'll last me for months BUT items like milk, bread, etc don't last that long by expiry date alone. If I see that I was getting low on something I'd add that to my next "milk & bread" order.

For me this point is moot right now as I still go to the store myself ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Keeping in mind I haven't received this order yet, the PC Express Delivery site shows me:
> 
> $8 delivery fee. Would be a bit lower if I had a larger order, possibly.
> $2 service fee
> $6 tip (my choice)


A $10 delivery charge is more than a lot of low income people can spare. I didn't see much in the stimulus package for low income seniors.

By the way, I heard some bank analysts talking on the news about the financial health of the banks. He said .....no worries, they have the "bail in" if needed.

So there it is. The bank "bail in" that could never happen is now on the table, just as you predicted it would be some day.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Grocery gateway booked solid til Apr 16. Walmart also has no slots open.

starve or isolate are looking like good options....

I hope there is plan somewhere if Emergency Measures act is enacted and people’s movements are further restricted.....choosing between violating isolation/quarantine vs getting food seems like a small, but possible risk.

my community ( 300 homes....20 mins from a city) has virtually zero home delivery options and is a seniors community. What happens when the healthy seniors become to afraid to go out And shop for others?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> Grocery gateway booked solid til Apr 16. Walmart also has no slots open.
> 
> starve or isolate are looking like good options....


I can only assume you are referring to a city Money172375. As I posted on the other thread this morning, we placed an order this morning and it will be delivered this afternoon by our small local Foodland in our small town of 3000 people.

There are pros and cons to where anyone chooses to live and you are experiencing a con of where you choose to live while I am experiencing a pro of where we choose to live.

All I can suggest is that rather than focusing on the problem you focus on finding a solution. Put in an order for Apr 16 delivery if that is the best you can find and then look for solutions to get your groceries in some other way until then. Then remember to put in another order before Apr 16 to get a delivery further down the road.

You may have to do some real 'out of the box' thinking for you in what you need to do now vs. what you did in the past. How many alternatives to grocery delivery have you looked at? Phone your local restaurants and ask if they are delivering. Have you tried meal prep companies such as Get $40 OFF - Canada’s #1 Meal Kit Delivery or HelloFresh Recipe Boxes to see what their current delivery times are? Or fully pre-cooked meal services such as Healthy Meal Delivery - As Low As $4.95 A Meal - LiveFitFoods.ca

Your problem is not that you will have to starve, it is ONLY a problem of what to do until April 16. Find a way to 'bridge the gap'.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> A $10 delivery charge is more than a lot of low income people can spare. I didn't see much in the stimulus package for low income seniors.


I don't buy that as a reason for MOST people, even low income people sags. It is a problem IF they continue to think as they have in the past and to spend as they have in the past. NOW they may need to change their priorities. I don't think there are many people in whose spending habits you could not find a way to cut $10 from somewhere else to re-direct to paying a delivery charge.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> I can only assume you are referring to a city Money172375. As I posted on the other thread this morning, we placed an order this morning and it will be delivered this afternoon by our small local Foodland in our small town of 3000 people.
> 
> There are pros and cons to where anyone chooses to live and you are experiencing a con of where you choose to live while I am experiencing a pro of where we choose to live.
> 
> ...


to clarify....booked til Apr 16......no calendar exists beyond that date


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> It's weird because of your reasoning!
> 
> I have lots of food that'll last me for months BUT items like milk, bread, etc don't last that long by expiry date alone. If I see that I was getting low on something I'd add that to my next "milk & bread" order.
> 
> For me this point is moot right now as I still go to the store myself ...


Sigh, old thinking. Both milk and bread can be frozen and their expiry date only applies if they are not. Even if you don't freeze milk, some like 2% Natrel which we happen to buy has an expiry date of 3-4 weeks if unopened. Even before this situation, we did not need to buy milk or bread all that often if we didn't want to. Every two weeks for both was fine and still is obviously. Of course we aren't a family of 6 going through a gallon a day either. They could also last 2 weeks easily but might not have enough space in their fridge to store it all. 

The only short term grocery items we buy really are fruit and vegetables. While there are ways around that by cooking and freezing you could use, it does get more difficult. You can't freeze a Caesar Salad. But even fresh fruit and vegetables will be good for 2 weeks in general. For example, don't buy ripe bananas to eat today and tomorrow, buy them a touch green to eat next week. Change habits.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> to clarify....booked til Apr 16......no calendar exists beyond that date


So what? If your problem is what to eat today and tomorrow, find an answer to that today and then tomorrow, look at the booking site again and keep looking till you can place an order. Until you can get a delivery you keep solving TODAY'S problem.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is a definite problem we are going to face, both for seniors and people in 14 day quarantine.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> This is a definite problem we are going to face, both for seniors and people in 14 day quarantine.


Yes it is james4beach so focus on finding solutions and posting them here to help others.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I've just heard that our local Kiwanis Club is also having volunteer members deliver to those who need deliveries and not just of groceries. Has anyone who is having trouble getting delivery phoned around their local service clubs to ask if they are offering any help?

It's solutions we need to share, not confirmations of a problem.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Sigh, old thinking. Both milk and bread can be frozen and their expiry date only applies if they are not. Even if you don't freeze milk, some like 2% Natrel which we happen to buy has an expiry date of 3-4 weeks if unopened. Even before this situation, we did not need to buy milk or bread all that often if we didn't want to. Every two weeks for both was fine and still is obviously. Of course we aren't a family of 6 going through a gallon a day either. They could also last 2 weeks easily but might not have enough space in their fridge to store it all.
> 
> The only short term grocery items we buy really are fruit and vegetables. While there are ways around that by cooking and freezing you could use, it does get more difficult. You can't freeze a Caesar Salad. But even fresh fruit and vegetables will be good for 2 weeks in general. For example, don't buy ripe bananas to eat today and tomorrow, buy them a touch green to eat next week. Change habits.


Sure, anyone can go into "survival mode" and please do so if you think it's needed in your area. Maybe you can get a deal on army surplus MREs? Lots of options available ... for now I'll just pick the stuff up at the store, while I'm still allowed, so I don't overload the delivery system for people that really need it.

So for online home delivery can you specify the bananas be "not ripe" or "mostly green"?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Sure, anyone can go into "survival mode" and please do so if you think it's needed in your area. Maybe you can get a deal on army surplus MREs? Lots of options available ... for now I'll just pick the stuff up at the store, while I'm still allowed, so I don't overload the delivery system for people that really need it.
> 
> So for online home delivery can you specify the bananas be "not ripe" or "mostly green"?


Fine cainvest, you do what you want. Now can you stop focusing on you and start suggesting solutions for those who are not you.

Yes we can specify green bananas in an e-mail and I think the picker will be able to deal with that. By the way, the order we placed at around 10am this morning was just delivered, including yup, semi-green bananas.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> It's solutions we need to share, not confirmations of a problem.


There's an app called NextDoor that is basically a social media app for neighbours. Invite codes are sent by mail by I assume the first person who signs up

There's a feature where you can offer/request different types of help and these can be displayed on a map. This is what my US 'hood is using to request/offer deliveries

They are also using it to discuss what the grocery store situations are etc. For example I found it very useful to learn the resupply/restock times of my local stores..


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> There's an app called NextDoor that is basically a social media app for neighbours. Invite codes are sent by mail by I assume the first person who signs up
> 
> It has feature where you can offer/request different types of help and these can be displayed on a map. This is what my US hood are using to request/offer delivery
> 
> They are also using it to discuss what the grocery store situations are etc. For example I found it very useful to learn the resupply/restock times of my local stores..


That seems a bit unfair, to let young people strategize about how to pick the stores clean, while seniors (people who generally will not use "apps") are left out of the loop.

My parents do not use smart phones or apps, and I don't think any of the seniors in my family do. Yes I realize some seniors do jump on board these trends but overall, it's the younger demographic who uses these things.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> That seems a bit unfair, to let young people strategize about how to pick the stores clean, while seniors (people who generally will not use "apps") are left out of the loop.
> 
> My parents do not use smart phones or apps, and I don't think any of the seniors in my family do. Yes I realize some seniors do jump on board these trends but overall, it's the younger demographic who uses these things.


Congratulations james4beach. M3s offers a potential solution and you diss it because it does not suit you personally. Well done not.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> There's an app called NextDoor that is basically a social media app for neighbours. Invite codes are sent by mail by I assume the first person who signs up
> 
> There's a feature where you can offer/request different types of help and these can be displayed on a map. This is what my US 'hood is using to request/offer deliveries
> 
> They are also using it to discuss what the grocery store situations are etc. For example I found it very useful to learn the resupply/restock times of my local stores..


A good suggestion m3s, thanks for sharing. May suit some if not james4beach.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Surprisingly james the discussions revolved around how bad the "seniors only" shopping period was (6am I believe) and how it was better to go after the restocking times. So it seems like at least here seniors are using it. I'm sure most aren't using it but the ones who do are probably informing those who don't.

I can tell you senior neighbours are the best security system a person can have. They notice every tiny disturbance or change in their environment day/night and they distribute/gather this local intel very efficiently somehow. Most of us youngins are too hyperfocused to smell the flowers


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Fine cainvest, you do what you want. Now can you stop focusing on you and start suggesting solutions for those who are not you.
> 
> Yes we can specify green bananas in an e-mail and I think the picker will be able to deal with that. By the way, the order we placed at around 10am this morning was just delivered, including yup, semi-green bananas.


I am providing a solution and personally not being part of the problem ... don't do delivery if you don't need it. Can you stop focusing on LTA's way is the only way and almost everyone else is wrong?

BTW, thanks for the info ... didn't know you could specify "not ripe bananas".


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

cainvest said:


> I am providing a solution and personally not being part of the problem ... don't do delivery if you don't need it. Can you stop focusing on LTA's way is the only way and almost everyone else is wrong?
> 
> BTW, thanks for the info ... didn't know you could specify "not ripe bananas".


grocery store delivery driver tests positive. Now we’ll ha e a debate on which method is safer...in store vs. Delivery. Do we have poll functionality?









Two grocery store employees, including delivery driver, test positive for COVID-19


Longo's says two of its employees, including a Grocery Gateway driver, have tested positive for COVID-19.



toronto.ctvnews.ca


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> Do we have poll functionality?


If you start a new discussion there's a poll option


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> That seems a bit unfair, to let young people strategize about how to pick the stores clean, while seniors (people who generally will not use "apps") are left out of the loop.
> 
> My parents do not use smart phones or apps, and I don't think any of the seniors in my family do. Yes I realize some seniors do jump on board these trends but overall, it's the younger demographic who uses these things.


Most stores stock overnight, and usually senior hours are at 7 am, or the first hour of opening.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> grocery store delivery driver tests positive. Now we’ll ha e a debate on which method is safer...in store vs. Delivery. Do we have poll functionality?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The store employee in Oshawa who tested positive has died. There is no question that grocery store employees and delivery drivers are 'front line workers' and there is a risk to their health.

I think the least risk would be if all groceries were delivered, no in store shopping at all. That would reduce interactions a great deal indeed. But unfortunately, they aren't geared up to that yet. They may get there before this is over however. If employee cases start to climb, I can foresee employees refusing to go to work unless more changes are made to protect them.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Perhaps curb side pick up is the best interim solution based on drivers/trucks/isolation needs. my order of preference would be at home delivery, curb side, in store. Appreciate we need to make sacrifices for the better good. My immune-comprised parents are already taking about having to go the curb side option.....they’ve been in isolation for 5 weeks. Not sure they’re comfortable relying on friends or family to deliver for the next 18 months.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Most stores stock overnight, and usually senior hours are at 7 am, or the first hour of opening.


True. That really gives seniors first dibs on everything, which is great.

Checking on the status of my PC delivery order that I entered five days ago. It's scheduled for 6 pm today. Currently the online status does not say the order is in progress, so I presume the items have not been picked from the shelves yet (this is now 8 hours before scheduled time slot).

Still hoping the things remain in stock by the time the shopping begins. Being in isolation at home with no ability to go to the store has been quite difficult. I've kind of lost hope of getting these items by delivery and so far, have been relying on my parents to bring me some essentials.

All those hundreds of thousands of $ in the bank don't really do me much good if they cannot be converted to toilet paper, soap and food. *And so far, I'm finding that they cannot be converted to the goods I need.*

That's a serious breakdown in the economic system & accessibility of essential needs. Unless the government helps rectify this situation soon, there are going to be serious consequences.

Perhaps we need to start using military resources to re-stock the stores. With strict (legally enforced) limits to prevent people from hoarding. Start bringing in soap, cleaning supplies, and essentials... actually refill the stores.

People who buy excess amounts, or hoard, or try to re-sell, should be made examples of with very strict penalties. Realistically the government has to do this, before vigilantes start doing it.

I'm already having fantasies of what I will do if I catch one of these guys with a pickup truck full of cleaning / paper supplies.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Anyone ever tried Costco grocery delivery in Canada?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't think you need anything as draconian as military intervention. There could be a rationing until production catches up. But for most of these items, there is lots of production capacity, the bare shelves is purely a social phenomenon. Same reason that makes people line up outside of apple stores for the next iphone. People hoard until they have so much they catch bring themselves to hoard more.

I don't think there is any shortages of real concern among these consumer staples, except maybe toilet paper. There is lots of soap. In my store, the anti-bacterial pump soap was been picked clean. A little down the aisle, the bar soap is barely touched. Folks, this is a virus. Anti-bacterial agents have ZERO effect. You just need soap. Any soap with do. Even dish soap, which is also readily available.

There is huge amount of food in-store, particularly fresh (harder to hoard). Pasta and sauces are slowly recovering. There are some flavours on the shelf but not back up to full abundance of variety.

I think the critical shortage right now is not what is available in-store, but the availability of pick-up or delivery service.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> True. That really gives seniors first dibs on everything, which is great.
> 
> Checking on the status of my PC delivery order that I entered five days ago. It's scheduled for 6 pm today. Currently the online status does not say the order is in progress, so I presume the items have not been picked from the shelves yet (this is now 8 hours before scheduled time slot).
> 
> ...


James4beach, the issue you are alluding to is SPEED. The speed at which things are going wrong is simply faster than the speed at which solutions can be implemented.

There is no shortage of goods, but people are still hoarding faster than the goods can be re-stocked. However, bear in mind that this has really only been going on for a few WEEKS. What you are saying is you are also looking for SPEED to occur. You are asking for the speed of response to be FASTER than the speed of the problem. That's simply not a reasonable expectation on your part.

Supply will catch up with demand again when people stop hoarding. They will stop hoarding when they have 'hoarded' (past tense). They will not continue forever. Normal stock will return to the shelves and probably sometime RELATIVELY soon.

The issue of pick up and delivery is another story of course.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Social phenomenon is a very real phenomenon. And the story in Canada (# infected, # daily deaths) is going to get much worse in the coming weeks, possibly even months. I don't think that social effect is going to alleviate so quickly.

I think government intervention, at least enforcing rationing, is needed. There are people who have loaded up truck loads of toilet paper while I am down to my last rolls. And I still need disinfectant wipes of some kind to clean the household. Again, some people loaded up their trucks with excess amounts.

At the end of the day I'm still concerned about getting my hands on essentials. I haven't been able to set foot in a store since March 7.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> I think the critical shortage right now is not what is available in-store, but the availability of pick-up or delivery service.


I agree andrewf, it is how to get the groceries from the supermarket to the consumer while protecting the safety of supermarket staff and the consumers at the same time that is the real issue right now. We can see they are working on it but again it is about SPEED. The problem grows faster than the solution can be grown. It may take considerably longer to solve that than the hoarding issue.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> I think government intervention, at least enforcing rationing, is needed. There are people who have loaded up truck loads of toilet paper while I am down to my last rolls. And I still need disinfectant wipes of some kind to clean the household. Again, some people loaded up their trucks with excess amounts.


Many stores are limiting amounts now.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Social phenomenon is a very real phenomenon. And the story in Canada (# infected, # daily deaths) is going to get much worse in the coming weeks, possibly even months. I don't think that social effect is going to alleviate so quickly.
> 
> I think government intervention, at least enforcing rationing, is needed. There are people who have loaded up truck loads of toilet paper while I am down to my last rolls. And I still need disinfectant wipes of some kind to clean the household. Again, some people loaded up their trucks with excess amounts.
> 
> At the end of the day I'm still concerned about getting my hands on essentials. I haven't been able to set foot in a store since March 7.


Agreed. As cases and deaths rise, hoarding will increase. The worst is yet to come. Parking lots at our shopping Centres are still full. A lot of people are still contingent on bau


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

We have a pickup scheduled for 6 tonight. Got this email from PCespress at 11am.


Thanks for shopping with us. Due to high volume, there may be a delay in preparing your order.

Please wait for your order update email or a call from a store colleague to reconfirm your pickup time. We want to ensure that you don’t experience additional wait times while picking up your order.

Didn’t receive a call or email before the end of your timeslot? Don’t worry, give us a call and we’d be happy to help.

We apologize in advance for any inconvenience.​


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Many stores are limiting amounts now.


unless you drop your goods in the car and walk right back into the store.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Social phenomenon is a very real phenomenon. And the story in Canada (# infected, # daily deaths) is going to get much worse in the coming weeks, possibly even months. I don't think that social effect is going to alleviate so quickly.
> 
> I think government intervention, at least enforcing rationing, is needed. There are people who have loaded up truck loads of toilet paper while I am down to my last rolls. And I still need disinfectant wipes of some kind to clean the household. Again, some people loaded up their trucks with excess amounts.
> 
> At the end of the day I'm still concerned about getting my hands on essentials. I haven't been able to set foot in a store since March 7.


im with you James, I’ve been hearing.....”it will get better soon”. It hasn’t. At least for 3 weeks. If you can’t walk into a store at any time during the day and buy TP, then things aren’t normal.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Many stores are limiting amounts now.


That's good news, thanks. I was hoping the stores would start enforcing limits.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> We have a pickup scheduled for 6 tonight. Got this email from PCespress at 11am.


Interesting. I have a delivery to home (slightly different service) scheduled for 6 tonight as well. I will definitely post here about how that goes... though it will be after my social media cut-off time, so I will update tomorrow.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Thinking about the social phenonenon aspect that was mentioned. That can in fact act against hoarding just as easily as it drives people to hoard.

There is obviously a growing annoyance and even anger by people against those who are obviously hoarding. I have even heard of it becoming physical both in stores and in the parking lots. 

On a smaller scale, if I look at it in regards to our town. Being a small town, not everyone knows everyone else literally but in a sense that is the case. Anyone so obviously hoarding as to empty a shelf of TP or any other item would be noticed and OUTED quite quickly in the community. They would know that would happen and I have to think it would deter them.

But even before that could happen, I don't think our local Foodland would sell them any truly large amount. They'd probably get stopped right at the check out. No one would be loading a pallet load as I have seen a video of online.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I have Longtimeago on ignore by the way. Yeah we get it, you're very smart, you saw things coming, and live in a nice small town. Great job.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Time for lunch. Off to have a bowl of Wolfgang Puck minestrone soup. It's just canned soup but it's a cut or make that many cuts above Campbells.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> im with you James, I’ve been hearing.....”it will get better soon”. It hasn’t. At least for 3 weeks. If you can’t walk into a store at any time during the day and buy TP, then things aren’t normal.


Hoarding kicked in the Thu before March break.I happened to be shopping after work that day, didn't buy any TP though. That makes it about 16 days. I don't think anyone is suggesting we are in 'normal times', but I don't think there is any reason to panic about consumer goods.


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## leoc2 (Dec 28, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Anyone ever tried Costco grocery delivery in Canada?


I have placed 2 orders in the past 2 weeks. They don't deliver fresh or frozen goods. I purchased things like paper towels, dishwasher tabs, cashew nuts, trail mix and chips. They typically take 3 to 4 business days to deliver from a warehouse in Quebec even though the online items come under the "Deliver in 2 Days" banner. In times like this I am not complaining about 4 day delivery.

The other service I use is Walmart online. I have placed orders over the past few weeks for pickup. The first order weeks ago allowed me to choose a pickup date about 2 or 3 days into the future. Lately I place an order (must be min $50) with the earliest delivery date being a week away. While I wait for the delivery date I can add, delete or change any item in the cart maintaining the delivery date. So it makes sense to restart a new order after picking up the current order and lock in a delivery date. The pickup process is touch less (well as much as it can be). You pull into a numbered spot and call the number on the sign for an attendant. The attendant wheels out your skid and loads into your pre-opened trunk.You drive away. No need to get out of the car. Disinfect items when you get home ... rinse...repeat next week


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I ordered TP on amazon US during the initial peak of hoarding as a stress test when state emergencies were being declared. It wasn't a rush order and although it showed delayed for a few days it was still delivered in under 10 days.

Amazon pantry items were all going out of stock and then completely shut down during that week as well. Now amazon pantry is back and I placed another order for canned goods and non-perishables to stock up

Curb pick up and online delivery from local grocers is overwhelmed here. At first they tried to surge and made dozens of parking spaces into pick up spots. Now those signs are covered in garbage bags. Those at risk rely on friends/family

I'm surprised the "essential workers" in the US are even showing up. They are the most vulnerable, least paid, overworked and have no health insurance being USA. They aren't provided PPE because healthcare doesn't have enough PPE.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

leoc2 said:


> I have placed 2 orders in the past 2 weeks. They don't deliver fresh or frozen goods. I purchased things like paper towels, dishwasher tabs, cashew nuts, trail mix and chips. They typically take 3 to 4 business days to deliver from a warehouse in Quebec even though the online items come under the "Deliver in 2 Days" banner. In times like this I am not complaining about 4 day delivery.


That's too bad they don't do fresh or frozen goods, most likely the bulk of what I'd buy from them.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> Here, if not in the mood for delivery, one can always procure one's own food.
> 
> 
> View attachment 20036
> ...


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> True. That really gives seniors first dibs on everything, which is great.
> 
> Checking on the status of my PC delivery order that I entered five days ago. It's scheduled for 6 pm today. Currently the online status does not say the order is in progress, so I presume the items have not been picked from the shelves yet (this is now 8 hours before scheduled time slot).
> 
> ...


James: I appreciate you are feeling quite stressed out upon your return. It's great that you are self isolating. I can't remember what city you are in now (somewhere in MB). Could I suggest that you check if there is local facebook group that can help. There have been groups popping up all over social media with people like me who are trying to help those who need to self isolate. I would bet if you reach out and ask if there any one out there with the items you do not get, there is a good chance they will help especially if you can reimburse them for the cost of the goods. Also, in my city, lots of laid off people, students who are off are offering grocery delivery for a small price if not for free. I think there are many options out there, you may just need to do some more internet searching.

Also be careful about judging those who you think are hoarding. I was buying for multiple families and strangers and it could look like I was hoarding. I just like to remind people unless it's really obvious, asking is fine, but don't assume you know what's going on.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> unless you drop your goods in the car and walk right back into the store.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

In order to allow room to social distance, many stores in my city have had line ups to get in. It would be next to impossible to get more than the limit because by the time you get back in the store it will be gone on hard to find items. 

This makes it difficult for me to shop for others since, everyone seems to want 2 dozen eggs, and the limit is 2 per person. So if I am buying for 4 families, it's not happening. I do understand why they are doing this, so I do what I can.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

One ho


Money172375 said:


> We have a pickup scheduled for 6 tonight. Got this email from PCespress at 11am.
> 
> ​
> Thanks for shopping with us.Due to high volume, there may be a delay in preparing your order.
> ...


one hour to go to our scheduled pick up time and still no update.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> Could I suggest that you check if there is local facebook group that can help. There have been groups popping up all over social media with people like me who are trying to help those who need to self isolate. I would bet if you reach out and ask if there any one out there with the items you do not get, there is a good chance they will help especially if you can reimburse them for the cost of the goods.


There have been many groups setup on Face book. Search for 'caremongering' in your area.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Just we’re informed our order is ready. No TP available.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's an update on Instacart / PC Express Delivery for Loblaws/Superstore: the order never came. I received several updates of delays (which pushed the delivery time estimate +4 hours), and then eventually got a notification saying they can't complete the order at all due to high volume. They said I should pick a new delivery time. The next available delivery time is next Friday, which is now 12 days from the original ordering date.

I selected the new date, but don't have much confidence that the order will arrive.

I tried phoning their 800 support number but the wait was 2.5 hours and it became time for bed before I reached anyone.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Here's an update on Instacart / PC Express Delivery for Loblaws/Superstore: the order never came. I received several updates of delays (which pushed the delivery time estimate +4 hours), and then eventually got a notification saying they can't complete the order at all due to high volume. They said I should pick a new delivery time. The next available delivery time is next Friday, which is now 12 days from the original ordering date.
> 
> I selected the new date, but don't have much confidence that the order will arrive.
> 
> I tried phoning their 800 support number but the wait was 2.5 hours and it became time for bed before I reached anyone.


Based on what I know in my city, you aren't going to get through in a timely manner especially since the 800 number is for most of Canada. If you are running really low on groceries, here are some tips (I posted above but you didn't respond):

see if there are other grocers that will deliver. The smaller ones may be more expensive but will delivery. We have Sunterra in our place which a lot more expensive but they are currently faster. Don't still with the cheapest place right now. Check all of them. You will get an idea of how busy they are based on the time slots
Check Kijiji, or put an ad up to see if there is someone who will do this. There have been a ton of people who have wanted to help
Use a meal service like Hello Fresh (I can send you a promo code). You can get close to a weeks worth of meals for a single guy
Check to see if there is a volunteer group that will do deliveries. There have been a ton popping up in my faceback area.
- Are their specific items you REALLY need? There are often hacks or work arounds if one gets creative. No tp, make your own personal bidet, hop in the shower or pull the shower head over, order a bidet off. If you post what you really need, I bet we could find a hack or workaround.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Here's an update on Instacart / PC Express Delivery for Loblaws/Superstore: the order never came. I received several updates of delays (which pushed the delivery time estimate +4 hours), and then eventually got a notification saying they can't complete the order at all due to high volume. They said I should pick a new delivery time. The next available delivery time is next Friday, which is now 12 days from the original ordering date.
> 
> I selected the new date, but don't have much confidence that the order will arrive.
> 
> I tried phoning their 800 support number but the wait was 2.5 hours and it became time for bed before I reached anyone.


instacart issue or pcexpress?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yup......thousands of people go in and out of a Costco or Walmart every day. Millions go in and out of other stores every day.

To fill everyone's orders and deliver, they would need an army of shoppers and delivery drivers and a lot of time.

Given the size of some these stores it takes a long time to walk the aisles. Given distances in Canada it would take a long time to deliver to the door.

I worked for 25 years in a big warehouse and the only way a grocery store could handle it is to have the same infrastructure, equipment and manpower of a huge warehouse. Even then, how do you get it to the individual customer ?

We placed/picked and shipped hundreds of thousands of parts every day. There were 600 employees working 2 shifts plus 50 on the midnight shift.

That is just getting the parts received, stored and then picked and shipped. Carriers delivered the goods.

We delivered parts to hundreds of dealers and smaller warehouses across Canada.

I can't imagine what would be required to deliver to millions of car owners directly.

Stores are set up for self - service and that is the only way it works for them.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> instacart issue or pcexpress?


I don't know where the problems happened. But PC Express uses Instacart for their delivery. As far as I can tell, the storefront and logistics are all through Instacart but they are calling it "PC Express Delivery"

And yes I do have other avenues, plus I am finished my 14 day quarantine in just a couple days. I just wanted to test this out to see if it's useful.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think their problem is drivers James.

Check your local "drivers wanted" websites and you may see a long list of ads for drivers needed "asap".

They can't get drivers for the same reasons they could never get drivers. You use your own vehicle and the pay is lousy.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Here's an update on Instacart / PC Express Delivery for Loblaws/Superstore: the order never came. I received several updates of delays (which pushed the delivery time estimate +4 hours), and then eventually got a notification saying they can't complete the order at all due to high volume. They said I should pick a new delivery time. The next available delivery time is next Friday, which is now 12 days from the original ordering date.


That's a poorly run system, they are accepting orders way higher than they can keep up with. They also completely kick you out of the queue and have you pick a new date at the end of the line again.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Instacart shoppers are threatening to strike on Monday in the US.

They want PPE gear, better benefits if they contract COVID at work, and a $5 per order increase in pay plus an automatic tip of 10% added to the total order.

That is just for the shoppers. The delivery drivers will be wanting more as well. Home delivery is about to become a lot more expensive.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Trudeau has just announced funding to the United Way-New Horizons specifically for doing health checks and grocery deliveries to Seniors.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I was speaking with an Insta cart driver a couple weeks ago for Superstore. She was telling me how crappy the system was. Instacart pays them crap, and only allows them to take one order at a time. She essentially had to do the shop for an order, line up, pay for it, before she could do another. She told me that they got paid more on the larger orders, so all the small orders people just ignore. It would have been more efficient for her to take a large order, and pick up the few smaller things, but that wasn't allowed unless instacart did the combining, in which she didn't get paid the full amount for two orders. 

She was just trying to make ends meet because she got laid off. She was considered doing it privately for people to make a little more. If people aren't careful, then these shoppers will pick the orders that pay the most and again the most vulnerable will not be able to afford it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I don't know where the problems happened. But PC Express uses Instacart for their delivery. As far as I can tell, the storefront and logistics are all through Instacart but they are calling it "PC Express Delivery"
> 
> And yes I do have other avenues, plus I am finished my 14 day quarantine in just a couple days. I just wanted to test this out to see if it's useful.


It is 100% instacart picking the order and delivering (uber style on demand work). That is absolutely awful customer service. I suspect pick-up service is more reliable, as it is actually done by the retailer and they probably have a bigger stake in an ongoing relationship.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Maybe we need to go back and look at how we received food a long time ago.

After WW2, few people had cars. We lived in smaller community outside of larger city. As now, we needed food delivered.

My Mom was able to phone in orders to butcher and small local store. They had a guy on a bicycle deliver (later motorized!). Milk & other dairy products were delivered daily from local dairy. Fresh fruit, vegetables and other items were sold by a vendor who drove around the neighborhoods in his truck and we could pick what we wanted. Ice cream cart was favorite for us kids. He rang his bell and the kids converged on him 

Another time, another place. But maybe we are getting back to something like that?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Or maybe this is the wake-up call that the wages we think are "normal" for this kind of work (poverty level wages) are simply unacceptable.

Start paying grocery and store stocking people, cashiers, and delivery people more like $30 or $40 and hour and let's see what happens. Perhaps it is time for them to form a union and codify their expectation (demands) so that we don't all simply forget about risks like these, and later say to ourselves ... "any idiot teenager can do this menial work".

If we don't have a union/government effort, then what will happen is that 6 years from now when today's panic is a distant memory, the wages will be back to minimum wage, this will be seen as unimportant and 'easily replaceable' with no memory of the professionalism and risk during times of stress.

In other words, this is an important service, and it deserves high pay.

And yes of course that will drive up the cost of everything for consumers. And we should probably embrace that as well and say "OH - seems we were dramatically underpaying for this for decades. My mistake. It turns out all of these services are worth more than we thought before. *Oh yes, I remember that time we almost all starved at home and had to start using our t-shirts to wipe our bums*".

So... increase the wages. Recognize this as professional and valuable work.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Or maybe this is the wake-up call that the wages we think are "normal" for this kind of work (poverty level wages) are simply unacceptable.
> 
> Start paying grocery and store stocking people, cashiers, and delivery people more like $30 or $40 and hour and let's see what happens. Perhaps it is time for them to form a union and codify their expectation (demands) so that we don't all simply forget about risks like these, and later say to ourselves ... "any idiot teenager can do this menial work".


j4b, most of these jobs are union jobs already. Except for the small operations, most grocery store cashiers, etc. are members of the UFCW (United Food and Commercial Workers) or similar, such as CLAC. I recently mentioned that my wife decided to accept work on the cleaning staff of a Vancouver Island hospital. There are COVID-19 cases here. She, like all others working there, is at decidedly increased risk. She cleans up literally bloody messes and worse (I'll spare details). She is a member of the HEU - Hospital Employees Union. She is being paid $15.45 an hour (less union dues, income tax and a range of other deductions) for her exposure.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think CMF members would be great to deliver to, but I did it for 2 years and there are a lot of a-holes out there.

I will give you just two examples out of many that I experienced in only 2 years.

One woman ordered $200 worth of Chinese food on Mother's Day. She ordered by credit card and the delivery was 10 miles out of the edge of the city.

The delivery was scheduled for 6:00 p.m. I arrived at 6:10 and she was standing on the porch waiting for me.

I unloaded the bags and she said "you are late. You were supposed to be here by 6" Then she said she left a big tip at the restaurant.

I went back to the restaurant and they showed me her credit card statement. There was no tip. I made a whopping $4 on the trip and it took about an hour there and back plus the gas expense.

On another occasion, East Side Mario's had some kind of promotion where if the people didn't get their food in 1 hour they didn't have to pay.

So it is a Friday night, in a blizzard and the restaurant is packed. People are waiting in the bar area to get seated. I was an hour late before I left the restaurant.

The order was for $150 and when I arrived at the run down apartment building a woman and a bunch of young guys were waiting for me.

She was holding a cellphone and handed it to me. It was the customer service rep in Vancouver. He says.......yea, you will have to give her the food.

I say....not a chance. I will have to pay for this food. He says I have to ......just tell the manager they okayed it. That group didn't have $15 let alone $150.

They knew exactly what they were doing. Order on a busy Friday night at supper time and wait for free food. If I arrive on time they don't answer the door.

When I told the manager she flipped out and started yelling at me. I told her to find someone else to deliver and they might want to reconsider their "promotion" before the word got out to all the other low lifes.

This is the crap that delivery drivers have to deal with all the time. It doesn't even include all the times people "lost" their wallet and want the food left for free.

I will say there are also many good people out there, but they are far fewer than the idiots.

One NHL player used to order $30 worth of food and tip $20 or more. One wealthy guy tipped $100 at Christmas.

Good luck to anyone unfortunate enough to be forced to do this to feed their kids. That wasn't me. I was doing it to get out and about.

Exceptions made for people who simply don't have the money for tips. I refused tips from people I felt couldn't afford it.

I even left pizzas for free at a place where the mom was frantic that her teenage kid had stolen her money. She had a little boy there looking at the pizza like he was starving. If her story was true or not.......I left the pizza anyways. I couldn't walk away and let the kid down. It put a smile on his face so it put a smile on my face. Given the circumstances, I think everyone on CMF would have done the same.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Or maybe this is the wake-up call that the wages we think are "normal" for this kind of work (poverty level wages) are simply unacceptable.
> 
> Start paying grocery and store stocking people, cashiers, and delivery people more like $30 or $40 and hour and let's see what happens. Perhaps it is time for them to form a union and codify their expectation (demands) so that we don't all simply forget about risks like these, and later say to ourselves ... "any idiot teenager can do this menial work".
> 
> ...


Well that's one way to look at it. Another way would be 'danger pay' which is not a new concept. You increase pay when a person is putting themselves in danger. You go back to 'normal' when the danger passes. In fact, that is what several of the major grocery store chains have announced they are doing.

I'm more than willing to pay more for my groceries to compensate those taking the risks to provide groceries to me.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Or maybe this is the wake-up call that the wages we think are "normal" for this kind of work (poverty level wages) are simply unacceptable.
> 
> Start paying grocery and store stocking people, cashiers, and delivery people more like $30 or $40 and hour and let's see what happens. Perhaps it is time for them to form a union and codify their expectation (demands) so that we don't all simply forget about risks like these, and later say to ourselves ... "any idiot teenager can do this menial work".
> 
> ...


That's not a solution IMO, it's a knee jerk reaction.

These are low-skilled jobs and the pay reflects that. The problem is the stress on supply lines, not just stocking the shelves. So blame the hoarders and the general public for not being prepared ... in other words, people should have basic supplies on hand in case of emergencies!

It's not like people are starving here, there is tons of food available but yes, you may run out of your favortie blueberry swirl frosted pop-tarts ... OMG!

Also note that many supply chain related companies have raised their hourly wages and/or giving bonuses during this outbreak plus they are hiring!


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

sags said:


> Exceptions made for people who simply don't have the money for tips. I refused tips from people I felt couldn't afford it.


People with no money for tips should perhaps refrain from ordering restaurant delivery. They should learn to cook.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

it appears grocery gateway won’t allow to make changes to your cart anymore without losing your time slot. the Warning says you “may” lose your slot. I think people were adding one Item to reserve the slot and then filling their cart the day before? 
perhaps The grocer wants to lock down the cart and start picking earlier to avoid James’ situation?

still a lot of “bugs” to work out and not as simple as some want the service to appear. this is a fundamentally different way of shopping and if we eventually all move to delivery, it will take years.

I ventured out today after my isolation, lots of stock...finally got tp. Lots of lines and waiting at Costco though.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> j4b, most of these jobs are union jobs already. Except for the small operations, most grocery store cashiers, etc. are members of the UFCW (United Food and Commercial Workers) or similar, such as CLAC. I recently mentioned that my wife decided to accept work on the cleaning staff of a Vancouver Island hospital. There are COVID-19 cases here. She, like all others working there, is at decidedly increased risk. She cleans up literally bloody messes and worse (I'll spare details). She is a member of the HEU - Hospital Employees Union. She is being paid $15.45 an hour (less union dues, income tax and a range of other deductions) for her exposure.


Is she doing this as charity? Why would anyone do this work for that rate of pay? You could make more as a cashier, or an ordinary janitorial job


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

andrewf said:


> Is she doing this as charity? Why would anyone do this work for that rate of pay? You could make more as a cashier, or an ordinary janitorial job


Not sure "charity" is the right word, but she is acting out of sense of duty, for the greater good. She signed on when the call went out, just as many doctors and nurses came out of retirement here in BC in response to a call for more healthcare workers. The only difference is, I am guessing, that the doctors and nurses are making more than $15/hr. 

But she is not motivated by making money anyway. I am able to support her without her having any need to work, as I have for almost all of our 18 or so years together. She has only worked from time to time in the past for a diversion, the pay being unimportant. Now, she works because she feels we all must do what we can to contribute in these difficult times. I find it a bit sad, however, that the doctors and nurses are viewed as heroes, while she has been told she is "crazy" and that I am some kind of subhuman for "allowing" her to take on the job. However, I have never seen it my place to "allow" or to "prohibit" her from doing anything. She is not my child or my servant. It's not my place to seek to control her. Call me crazy too, but I think she is doing the right thing.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> People with no money for tips should perhaps refrain from ordering restaurant delivery. They should learn to cook.


Exactly. I've never understood why people will repeatedly pay $30 to have a pizza delivered when they could make one just as good or better at home for $5 - $8.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Prairie Guy said:


> Exactly. I've never understood why people will repeatedly pay $30 to have a pizza delivered when they could make one just as good or better at home for $5 - $8.


Oh that's an easy one. People are lazy.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Exactly. I've never understood why people will repeatedly pay $30 to have a pizza delivered when they could make one just as good or better at home for $5 - $8.


This is part of that lost art of being able to cook and also people do love to eat out.
We LOVE eating out, but to set a good example we put in a guideline that if I could make it in the same amount of time that it took to order and have it delivered, then we try not to do the take out. That included being able to the have the ingredients on hand. Unfortunately, I pretty decent in the kitchen, so there aren't very many things that we go out to eat for as much.

Though as much needed break when it's my spouses turn to cook, we end up getting a lot more take out.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Anyone having luck booking a pick up slot? Pcexpress, Walmart and grocery gateway are all booked solid for the next 2 weeks. The pickup option was great for my parents who are immuno-compromised. Although I guess with today’s warning from the city of toronto, anyone over 70 shouldn’t be going out at all.


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## martik777 (Jun 25, 2014)

No luck here in Vancouver area. I'm worried that the virus could be airborne in grocery stores more than we have been told:








They Say Coronavirus Isn't Airborne—but It's Definitely Borne by Air


The word “airborne” means different things to different scientists, and that confusion needs to be addressed.




www.wired.com





Check your local Seniors' center, ours is offering frozen meals delivered


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Had a curb side pickup scheduled for tomorrow at 9am for my parents. Grocery gateway changed it to apr 16. not Sure how it can be done, but these services need to be reserved for the most vulnerable.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

I received to calls yesterday with the hallmarks of a scam. A foreign accent with a drawn out speaking rate that seemed to be computer generated. The message was that in these times of covid 19 isolation, Walmart is doing it's part by offering home delivery within twenty four hours ... press one to place your order.

Any of the other grocery delivery services are saying a week or longer to have a delivery date.


Cheers


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Seems the major delivery choices and even curb side pickup are becoming irrelevant. My SIL’s order through instabuggy (via Costco) was cancelled the day after the scheduled delivery due to “items being out of stock”. I’ve been to Costco....the staples are not out of stock. I’ve corresponded with Grocery gateway....their time slots open at midnight and the next available slot is 20 days out. Some smaller Toronto area delivery services/grocers are halting the service. amazon Still has numerous “out of stock” messages on many staples.....canned fish, pasta, canned vegetables etc. Their supply chain doesn’t seem “fine”. The crisis is 3 weeks old (minimum).


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Possible supply chain interruption is why we continue to add to our stock as we get room. Our freezer is full but we can buy more canned goods.

We have dispensed with frozen bread and substituted those big bags of crusty buns from Costco. They are good to replace bread and hotdog/burger buns.

They buns freeze better than bread and are delicious. They don't get all soggy from tuna or egg salad.

We still do a run at Costco because we want the big sizes to stock up. Another hint is M&M Meats. They have everything in boxes and are rarely busy.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

I spoke with a worker from a safe distance of course yesterday and he had talked about Instacart in Kingston doing 40-50 deliveries daily from Loblaws in our city.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I might as well post an update. I received my Instacart (Superstore delivery to home) 13 days after placing the original order, and 6 days late. This was after they initially said they will not be able to make the original date, and then told me to pick a new one -- I had been thrown to the back of the queue, which is where that +6 DAY delay came from.

I didn't cancel the order because I wanted to see how it went and still needed the items. Was still in a mandatory quarantine at that point and didn't have much choice.

Given how unreliable that was, I can't say that I would recommend it to anyone.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

In normal times, these services work a lot better. A way of rationing access to the service in a way that makes sense and doesn't cause such poor customer service experiences could be implemented but that's going to take some software development effort. Not sure that these companies are going to do it if they think the current reality is going to blow over.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

I wonder if this test run of socialism appeals to anyone? Long lines and empty shelves...it can all be yours!!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ Dumb comment of the day contender, here.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> ^ Dumb comment of the day contender, here.


No, it was completely accurate. That's how real socialism works, not the fantasy version sold by Liberal and Democrats.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

How is this a test run of socialism? And how can whatever your justification is explain the virus? The virus caused hoarding and social distancing requirements. That is what caused empty shelves and lines at stores. To claim that it has anything to do with socialism or lack thereof is just blatant lies.

And of course socialism _can _cause shortages and lines (see Cuba and Russia). But to say that is what is happening here is just an insane lie.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> How is this a test run of socialism? And how can whatever your justification is explain the virus? The virus caused hoarding and social distancing requirements. That is what caused empty shelves and lines at stores. To claim that it has anything to do with socialism or lack thereof is just blatant lies.
> 
> And of course socialism _can _cause shortages and lines (see Cuba and Russia). But to say that is what is happening here is just an insane lie.


Andrewf, surely by now you realize that Prairie Guy does not contribute to the topic of threads, he only posts to write about his delusional political agenda. Don't look for logic from someone who isn't interested in it at all.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is a story on CNN about people changing their tips on InstaCart deliveries.

It is so prevalent that InstaCart had to change their app to eliminate the "remove the tip" button from the app.

Customers now have to change the amount of tip to $0 and they are.

Customers include large tips($30-$50) to attract InstaCart shoppers to completing their orders first. Then later they remove the tip. They have 3 days to do so.

As I posted before, my own experience operating a delivery business was not a good one.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

There are no significant shortages, or even supply disruptions.
We just had a massive rush, I was actually stunned to see how quickly items are getting back in stock.

The Walmart pickup was scheduling out 2-3 days earlier this week. I'd expect Easter and the false reports that Walmart is closing are going to cause another blip if it catches on.

I think people are finding shopping annoying and they'll likely go shopping less often. I hope the picking and delivery services figure out a sustainable business model. I think they're broken right now.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The business model could change, but people really don't want to pay an extra charge for delivery. They almost view as the delivery person is cheating them.

Many customers used to ask me why there was a $4 delivery charge on their order. They think the restaurant/business should be paying for it.

Perhaps the best model is to charge more for the food and bury the delivery charges out of sight.......then advertise "free delivery".

There needs to be changes by government to enhance delivery jobs. I owned a new vehicle but couldn't deduct the vehicle payments from my income.

I also found the businesses had cumbersome methods of getting paid my delivery fee. They all had a different method.

To get paid by some, pharmacies in food stores, I had to get a voucher from the pharmacy and then line up at the cashier to get paid.

In others, they wanted monthly billing but then disputed the bill at the end of the month. And some deliveries were all over the city or 10 miles out of town.

The apps help with getting orders and getting paid instantly, but what do drivers do when there are no orders and they are sitting around waiting.

A steady wage for a base number of deliveries and then commission above that seems the best route to me.

The drivers need to be able to count on a base wage.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Andrewf, surely by now you realize that Prairie Guy does not contribute to the topic of threads, he only posts to write about his delusional political agenda. Don't look for logic from someone who isn't interested in it at all.


I posted about the reality of socialism and you called that delusional.

Give us example of successful socialism. Real socialism...not the mild version in modern countries where it's funded by capitalism. If you can do that, I'll quit the board. That's how confident I am that you can't back up your claim and can only insult people that prove you wrong.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> Perhaps the best model is to charge more for the food and bury the delivery charges out of sight.......then advertise "free delivery".


This is the model uber eats uses. Uber charges restaurants and restaurants list higher prices for delivery, but delivery is 'free' or $1.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> I posted about the reality of socialism and you called that delusional.
> 
> Give us example of successful socialism. Real socialism...not the mild version in modern countries where it's funded by capitalism. If you can do that, I'll quit the board. That's how confident I am that you can't back up your claim and can only insult people that prove you wrong.


Nice strawman.

Give us example of successful capitalism. Real capitalism...not the mild version in modern countries where it's moderated by social programs. If you can do that, I'll quit the board. That's how confident I am that you can't back up your claim and can only insult people that prove you wrong.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Nice strawman.
> 
> Give us example of successful capitalism. Real capitalism...not the mild version in modern countries where it's moderated by social programs. If you can do that, I'll quit the board. That's how confident I am that you can't back up your claim and can only insult people that prove you wrong.


Why did you feed the troll andrewf? 

So how are people finding online delivery these days? That is the topic of this thread. Is the lead time for an available slot getting any better?


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Prairie Guy said:


> I wonder if this test run of socialism appeals to anyone? Long lines and empty shelves...it can all be yours!!


wow. Completely disillusioned.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Nice strawman.
> 
> Give us example of successful capitalism. Real capitalism...not the mild version in modern countries where it's moderated by social programs. If you can do that, I'll quit the board. That's how confident I am that you can't back up your claim and can only insult people that prove you wrong.


We know that going to far with either one is problematic.

The problem is we're quickly going to bigger government, with more government control of the economy, and that's a problem.
The fact that you only get to keep slightly more than have of the product of your labour is a serious problem.
Also much of the money that is being taken is wasted, and they're taking it from people who don't even make enough to live.

I think taxing people who don't make a living wage, is immoral.
I think a tax rate of 50% is too high.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> I think a tax rate of 50% is too high.


Totally agree.

ltr


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> ltr


On what does anyone base how much tax is too much and while you are answering that for me, also answer on what you base how much is too little.

The only way I know to decide whether I think we are ALL paying too much tax or too little collectively rather than just thinking that I pay too much tax personally, is to look at what value for money our tax dollars get us.

I suspect though that whenever someone says, 'we pay too much' what they really mean is 'I think I pay too much.'

Right now, we are seeing the value of our tax dollars that go towards healthcare are getting us. Compare our neighbours to the south and what they are getting. Even when they have private insurance they pay far more per person per year for that care than we do. That would seem to say to me that we are getting good value for our healthcare tax dollars at least. 

I could offer many other examples but somehow I don't think anything will convince those who think THEY are paying too much. They don't really care about us collectively, only themselves personally.

I'm always reminded of an example that occurred in Switzerland where people have a far different attitude towards taxes. They were given a choice of either not fixing all the potholes streets and roads developed, quite as quickly OR having a tax increase to pay for it. They CHOSE the tax increase. Now try to imagine that happening here Where ME is more important than US all.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> On what does anyone base how much tax is too much and while you are answering that for me, also answer on what you base how much is too little.


I base how much tax is too much by the fact that as soon as it gets to 50%, I, and every other person ever surveyed, says that's the limit. 

Quit asking such ridiculous questions.

ltr


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> I base how much tax is too much by the fact that as soon as it gets to 50%, I, and every other person ever surveyed, says that's the limit.
> 
> Quit asking such ridiculous questions.
> 
> ltr


Like_to_retire, when I was quite young my Father told me that the more income tax he paid the happier he was. Did you know that 40% of Canadians pay no income tax at all. 








Trudeau is right: 40% of Canadians don’t pay income taxes, which means someone else is picking up the bill


Ted Rechtshaffen: The top 20 per cent is likely paying 70 per cent or more of all income taxes




business.financialpost.com





When my Father told me he was happy paying more tax, I didn't immediately understand what he meant. It was only when I started working for a living that I understood that the more income tax I was required to pay also meant the more money I had in my pocket. But maybe you don't realize that yet.

Ask any of the 40% of Canadians who pay NO income tax at all if they would be willing to pay 50% tax on earnings of $100k and keep $50k in their pocket. As it is, Canada has no tax bracket anywhere near that high. It only goes to 33% on earnings OVER $210k. But the fact remains, the more tax you pay the more income you keep in your pocket.

So paying more tax is NOT about losing money, you actually have more money. The only reason to think about 'is it too much' is if you do not see that you are getting value for money. I think we do reasonably well in Canada in what we get for our tax dollars in terms of value for money and so, I have no problem with paying the amount of tax I am asked to pay.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> It was only when I started working for a living that I understood that the more income tax I was required to pay also meant the more money I had in my pocket. But maybe you don't realize that yet.


Nope, I'm not a smart quy like you.




Longtimeago said:


> As it is, Canada has no tax bracket anywhere near that high. It only goes to 33% on earnings OVER $210k.


If someone in Ontario had a basic $50,000 pension along with CPP and OAS, and modest dividends of $25,000 and interest income of $10,000 would pay $519 on the next $1000 earned. That's 51.9% if you didn't realize that yet.

ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> On what does anyone base how much tax is too much and while you are answering that for me, also answer on what you base how much is too little.
> 
> The only way I know to decide whether I think we are ALL paying too much tax or too little collectively rather than just thinking that I pay too much tax personally, is to look at what value for money our tax dollars get us.
> 
> ...


I get pennies on the dollar for my tax money.

Even if you discount the massive handouts, there is so much waste, it's absolutely sickening.
Governments act like the money is freely given to them.

Two guys voting to take the third guys money is "democratic", it just isn't right.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our second on line delivery order got elongated. Then a request to reschedule two weeks out. By the time of our second reschedule (with some items not available) I was two days away from ending my 14 day isolation. After that I went to Costco and Superstore and got everything we needed. 

By the time we received that home delivery order we would have been down to eating leather shoelaces.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> Nope, I'm not a smart quy like you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


$85k is a pretty healthy income. And not sure someone can complain about taxes while receiving welfare for old people (OAS).


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> Nope, I'm not a smart quy like you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cry me a river like_to_retire. If you aren't happy paying your taxes, why don't you move to another country and see what your tax dollars get you there.

People who like to complain but have no solution to THEIR problem to suggest make me laugh. If you don't want to pay as much tax, give some of your income away. It's not hard to do.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have been in the highest incremental tax bracket for years. And we feel fortunate to be there. I believe that we get a lot for our tax dollars. Sure, Governments waste money. But so does private industry...I have been there.

We have traveled extensively. It is always so good to come back to Canada. People take it for granted. We have so much compared to other countries. There are millions of people in other countries who would trade their right arm for even a chance at having a Canadian passport. When we travel and people ask where we are from (thinking that we are Brits or Americans) their eyes invariably light up when we say we are Canadian.

There are far too many whiners and complainers who have absolutely no idea that we in Canada are probably in the top 3 percent of the world( or higher) when it comes to personal safety, safe food supply, income, environment, health care, standard of living, education, opportunity, and democratic government.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> We have been in the highest incremental tax bracket for years. And we feel fortunate to be there. I believe that we get a lot for our tax dollars. Sure, Governments waste money. But so does private industry...I have been there.
> 
> We have traveled extensively. It is always so good to come back to Canada. People take it for granted. We have so much compared to other countries. There are millions of people in other countries who would trade their right arm for even a chance at having a Canadian passport. When we travel and people ask where we are from (thinking that we are Brits or Americans) their eyes invariably light up when we say we are Canadian.
> 
> There are far too many whiners and complainers who have absolutely no idea that we in Canada are probably in the top 3 percent of the world( or higher) when it comes to personal safety, safe food supply, income, environment, health care, standard of living, education, opportunity, and democratic government.


I agree totally ian and especially with people not realizing just how good we have it here in Canada. After spending 20 years travelling and living in various countries around the world, Canada is where I CHOSE to return to and expect to remain in until I die. You can only know how good you have it when you have seen how it is in other countries.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I am okay with paying taxes UP TO A CERTAIN POINT. I agree it is a privilege to live in Canada especially since my parents immigrated here and even with their hard times initially always taught me how much better it is here. I see it with the health care my mom gets in her older years.

That being said, I don't appreciate the 40% that keeps saying I should pay more and more when they pay very little to nothing. I know a person who has started up several companies and sold them. The first company sold in Canada the taxes was over $15MIL that was in tax. They paid their taxes and moved. The next three companies sold for double of the first but taxes we the same or less in another country. 

I can definitely agree that it's better to keep $25 MIL on $50 MIL sale (not exact numbers) than making the amount I do, even though I pay less tax. It's even better though to keep $37 MIL on the same sale. That's what we are dealing with is there gets to the point where those that make a lot and get over taxed will just pick up and move to another country. When one can buy a higher standard of living for the taxes saving they receive then the only country that loses is the one that lost the business or person that left.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Perhaps a new thread is needed here.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Perhaps a new thread is needed here.


Very fair. I forgot what the original thread was on. Now back to the thread.



Longtimeago said:


> So how are people finding online delivery these days? That is the topic of this thread. Is the lead time for an available slot getting any better?


I can only speak for my city which is a major city. I follow this very carefully as I have family and other I help with for groceries. 

The major chains are not getting better in terms of lead times. Our Superstore opens slots 13 days in advance, so right now, one day at time. They fill up quickly, usually by mid after noon, or earlier if you are waiting for the weekend slot. No Frills, is about 8-10 days in advance, and Walmart is only 7 days (I think) in advance for their system but good luck finding a spot, it just fills up. The smaller ones are much more random for times, but they are also full for the week. So lead times are not great. 

. I am going back to farmers coop I used and they appreciate it, I can get in there but only for my vegetables, I found a local butcher, and a few other local places that can get me in on a subscription on a weekly or bi weekly basis. The prices are about 25-50% more but it is a higher grade of food. 

There have been local businesses popping up. One a bunch of college students that will help seniors and those who need help which is great. For the people that can afford it, the charge is somewhere between $20-75 for shopping an delivery. They can be accessed with in the week. I haven't used them yet, but like what they are doing, so may give them a try as they are helping those who are most vulnerable.

There are volunteer groups which are always busy and cannot meet demand. I am a part of one, but am finding I am only venturing out to help when I am doing it for my extending family (It keeps my parents safer). Demand is high there. 

In terms of supply chain, I keep track on line and in local forums and facebook pages what seems to be the hard items to find. Most items now are being delivered, unlike a week and half ago where people where missing half their items. The difficult finds are disinfectants, wipes, rubbing alcohol, aloe (anything to make these), toilet paper, paper towels, yeast. Pantry items are hit and miss, but more hit than before. Stocking up is more difficult as there are limit. Meats are generally there, but you will not always get what you want. Ground beef seems to be the hot item, and of course anything on sale for meats. 

I am planning to do a major shop this week and plan to hit Costco for the first time since this started, and some of the big box places. I have on my list up to 5 places I may go, I hope to find everything I need in two. I will post back then.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Calgary. We gave up on our second order-no shows, delays and re-scheds at the last minute.. Went to Costco and then Superstore. Other than fruit, veg, and milk, enough to last us for a month, perhaps longer. On second thought, just as well. We can get out, there are others who cannot.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ian said:


> Calgary. We gave up on our second order-no shows, delays and re-scheds at the last minute.. Went to Costco and then Superstore. Other than fruit, veg, and milk, enough to last us for a month, perhaps longer. On second thought, just as well. We can get out, there are others who cannot.


How was the stock and line up at Costco and superstore. I am venturing out to both over the next few days.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Twenty minute line to get into Costco (I did not go early for the seniors hour). Costco was doing a first rate job, imho,protecting their customers and their staff. Carts were all wiped down for us plus they had extra wipes as we entered the store. They controlled entry to the store, entry to the dairy area, entry to the produce area. Staff situated around the store to keep an eye on distancing. Lots of hand cleaner everywhere.

Superstore was much less, looked to me like they were just going through the motions at the store I visited. Very noticeable difference. A lot fewer staff on duty monitoring lines, distance, etc. Perhaps it was just this store.

Costco: Bakery, Meat, Dairy was normal. Some missing items from fresh fruit and veg but overall very good. Paper products fine. Sold out of frozen corn, peas when we were there. I was surprised and expected some larger deficiencies. Superstore was fine. Got what I needed. Some missing items but overall the same. Better than I anticpated. No lineup at the cash. But...my list at Superstore was much shorter so a comparison is not fair. Fresh fruit and veg was a bit light, dairy and bakery fine. Don't know about the meat/seafood as I did not look there. No lineup to get in, I did not take a cart. Slight line up to go through the self serve...much longer at the cashier.

I had a flat at Costco. They were great even though distancing means several empty bays. 7PM. They put on the spare and took the tire off for repair.


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## dadaswell (Jan 6, 2016)

There are a few tricks you can try regarding the delivery and/or pickup option. I know it may be different from place to place, but this is what we have done using Loblaws and Superstore.
1.) Even if there are no delivery times available, which we have come across A LOT, place the items you want in your shopping cart so they are ready to go. (At our location, you can make changes to the list after you have placed your order anyway.)
2.) Keep checking the website. There have been numerous times over the last number of days where we have seen same day delivery spots open up in the late afternoon....sometimes the delivery is listed as under 1 or 2 hours. We took advantage of this today. My guess is this is dependent on how many orders the drivers are successful at completing throughout the day. Watch the delivery charge though. Ours went from $9.99 to $3.99 with the addition of a couple of items. We haven't noticed that this "same day" opportunity appears for the pick up option, however.
3.) If you are a night hawk, keep checking between the hours of midnight - 2 am. This is when they seem to open up more spots on the website. This seems to be true for both the delivery or pickup options. This is also the time that we have taken our "full" cart and done our checkout with a time slot anywhere from 7 days to 2 weeks in the future. Remember, you can make changes to your cart up to a certain time before delivery/pickup.
4.) The great debate regarding, "Should we do pickup or delivery?" It depends. We have decided to pickup whenever we can. In our case, the store brings the groceries out to the vehicle and places them inside. We like this option for a few reasons.
~ The shopping is done by the store staff. They are familiar with the products, know where everything is, and don't give up on finding an item so easily.
~ We know they have had training as to how to handle the food. We realize that doesn't necessarily mean they will follow it, but at least we know the information has been shared with them.
~ We don't have a complete stranger showing up at our house. (More info in a minute.)
5.) We placed a last minute order today, and had it delivered in less than 2 hours. My wife kept watching the website around 3 pm because she refused to let me go out to the store for coffee as I am high risk. ( I am addicted, I ran out today, and our Costco delivery doesn't show up until Tuesday.) She then took the opportunity to add an additional 8-10 items before the shopper started shopping.
6.) We have a "disinfecting/cleaning" area set up in our attached garage where we wipe down/wash incoming articles. The way we handle deliveries is that we put a large banana box just outside the garage door on the driveway, and watch for the delivery person to come along when we get the notification. We then open the large garage door, and have the delivery person place the bags in the banana box. That way they do not have to ring our doorbell, touch our door handles, or knock, or whatever. It's no touch, which means we do not have to go back and clean all those surfaces afterwards. After the delivery person places the groceries in the box and leaves, we then slide it into the garage where we do our cleaning of items before they come into the house. Which brings me to #7...
7.) Today it was two guys who delivered our items. Both my wife and I noticed that they seemed to spend a little too long trying to have a look inside and around our garage. Neither of us was comfortable with it. I know that there is an option to give feedback on the driver, but it was one of those things that wasn't a concrete infraction, but enough to get us thinking.

Anyhow, those are just a few observations from our online experiences. There is a bit of a learning curve. The thing that drives my wife the most nuts?? We have to pay full price for everything, and she can't search for the deals in the store!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

@ian Thank you for the info. I have been trying to plan my massive shop as effieciently as posted. 

@dadaswell good tips. I am still on the fence for me personally about delivery and pick up. I am a very picky grocery shopper and debate if I should take the spot from someone else but may have to figure out new ways.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We have spent over $3000 in the past couple of weeks on groceries. We gave our son $1,000 worth of food out of the $3,000.

They had a little money saved but neither is receiving any income or government benefits yet and have to pay rent and other bills.

I thought that was a ridiculous amount of money, but then I got thinking.......our son says they spend $800 a month on food. We spend $600 a month.

So in reality, all we bought was 2 months ahead. I never paid much attention to how much we spend on food before because it was $200 here and $300 there.

We have enough food stocked up for a lot longer than 2 months because we had stocked up before the pandemic.

We have said numerous times.....okay, we are done. We are all set. And then today, I noticed the coffee creamer was near empty.

We have 400 k-cups of Kirkland coffee and 300 rolls of TP but are running out of strawberry jam. Good grief.......there is no end to it.

( I know that is a ridiculous amount of coffee cups and TP, but my wife always stocks up on anything on sale so the stash has been building for awhile)


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

@sags i a, trying to understand how you need 300 rolls of TP for two people or even adding your sons family. I always have a healthy supply of TP and am a bill buying, but I can honestly say that I have never had 300 rolls of TP. 

If you are finding that there is no end to running out of things but yet you are stocked up for months and keep stocking, maybe buy basic items that can be used n bind as a substitute. This way you can reduce the number of times out until you really have to go again in month.

Run of jam, make sure you have a bag of frozen fruit. You can make a quick stove top jame.
Creamer - cans of evaporated milk

For most things, if you have base ingredients in your pantry, then you can almost always Gina reasonable substitute and you can reduce the amount of Inventory you need. It will also have less likely hold of wastage later when this is over. 

I hate running out of anything but with more time at home I have been Teying to go back to the basic and find reasonable substitutions.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> We have spent over $3000 in the past couple of weeks on groceries. We gave our son $1,000 worth of food out of the $3,000.
> 
> They had a little money saved but neither is receiving any income or government benefits yet and have to pay rent and other bills.
> 
> ...


400 k-cups? why aren't you using reusables?

300 rolls of TP is insane, that's 3 years for my family of 4. I understand stocking up, but Costco has the same sales every few months.

Now we know why there are shortages. 3 years of toilet paper, wow.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Sounds like a “collector” and not a “shopper”


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> 300 rolls of TP is insane, that's 3 years for my family of 4. I understand stocking up, but Costco has the same sales every few months.
> 
> Now we know why there are shortages. 3 years of toilet paper, wow.


At that point, I think it's safe to call it a mental disorder. It sounds like a "mild" version of compulsive hoarding.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

dadaswell said:


> ... We then open the large garage door, and have the delivery person place the bags in the banana box. ...
> 7.) Today it was two guys who delivered our items. Both my wife and I noticed that they seemed to spend a little too long trying to have a look inside and around our garage. Neither of us was comfortable with it.


Can't they put the groceries outside the door, and you open it after they leave?


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Retired Peasant said:


> Can't they put the groceries outside the door, and you open it after they leave?


That was my thought too.

There's a 2 week delay here online shopping so we're not bothering with it. We have stocked up and are good for several weeks and we'll just go to the store every couple weeks for perishables and sale items.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Our local Superstore now has plenty of pick-up slots available starting at 3 days out. Must have ramped up staff.

Our local Foodland still has same day pick-up or delivery for seniors on monday, wednesday and friday. They have started asking for those seniors who are mobile to consider pick-up more as delivery orders have increased in the last couple of weeks.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The government money just started flowing. It is going to get really busy.

The lineups outside the stores are getting much longer. It now takes about 45 minutes to get into some stores.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

sags said:


> The government money just started flowing. It is going to get really busy.
> 
> The lineups outside the stores are getting much longer. It now takes about 45 minutes to get into some stores.


Yes, liquor sales will take off; the dial-a-dope operators will have to hire extra runners; the party begins.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Our local Superstore now has plenty of pick-up slots available starting at 3 days out. Must have ramped up staff.
> 
> Our local Foodland still has same day pick-up or delivery for seniors on monday, wednesday and friday. They have started asking for those seniors who are mobile to consider pick-up more as delivery orders have increased in the last couple of weeks.


Or you are in a town of 3000 people. 

I do like that idea for pick-up or delivery for seniors or vulnerable on certain days. That would work better if they tied that in here in addition to the hours that have early for them to shop.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We made our list. It was long because we had been away for several months and we never do much grocery shopping in the lead up to an extended trip.

As Costco shoppers, one thing we did after making a list was to redo the list based upon how the Costco store is laid out. That way I did not find myself going back and forth to different areas of the store for something that I did not notice on the list. Made the shop faster and it was better for distancing. Did not do this for the Superstore list....a mistake on my part plus I am not nearly as familiar with how the store is laid out.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Or you are in a town of 3000 people.
> 
> I do like that idea for pick-up or delivery for seniors or vulnerable on certain days. That would work better if they tied that in here in addition to the hours that have early for them to shop.


I find the 'Seniors hour' being offered for the first hour they are open a ridiculous idea. Seniors overall do not get up any earlier than anyone else. In fact, it is people going to work of whatever age that tend to get up earliest. We generally go to bed at midnight and get up at 8am. Then we have breakfast etc. before we would be ready to think about going out for a pick-up. If they want to designate a Seniors Hour, then 1-2pm would be a far better time. Those working will not be trying to make a quick lunch hour dash and those not working can as easily wait till 2pm as 9am.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> At that point, I think it's safe to call it a mental disorder. It sounds like a "mild" version of compulsive hoarding.


Having seen mental disorders, I don't think that's a fair assessment. Unless sags was doing this before, then over buying can be a natural response. It is known that in times of uncertainty anxiety increases. A large part of anxiety comes from the unknown and feeling out of control. People will do things to 'take back control' in order to reduce their anxiety. It will come in many different ways, both healthy and unhealthy for each person. 

For me, I know I am really good at looking at risks and preparing for them. I feel a lot better thinking through what could happen and then trying to prepare for it. That does involve ensuring I have everything I need in my house for food, activities, mental health, etc. There become a fine line if I over do and some can even say it looks like hoarding. In the earlier days of COVID, I was already starting to take some of the precautions and people thought I would paranoid. However, many of those things are what are now recommended. 

There is a very fine line for mental health where I think for many, this pandemic will trigger or set them off. It's important to see if the behaviors are 'rational'. That's hard when self assessing, I speak with my close family and friends frequently that I trust to see if I am going overboard, if I can explain my logic, that is one test I use. If I get a really 'weird' response, I do reflect. My kids are great way to check too. They underestimate some of this and if I can convince them I know I am not going to far. Another really important test is to see if this 'preparing' is all consuming. If you are losing sleep, unable to think about anything else, and it's impacting any attempt a quality of life, so you are constantly worried, then it's a problem.

In these times of such uncertainty, everyone just needs to be vigilent in reflecting on their mental health and making sure that you are able to reflect and recognize something is really off (other than the whole pandemic) and have healthy outlets to take care of it. So in the case of people buying a lot, it can be away of having control. I spent hours going over my grocery lists to make sure I have everything for all the families, and even made a plan on how to shop, load, deliver, and unpack in the safest manner. It could be considered obsessive, but I feel safer.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I find the 'Seniors hour' being offered for the first hour they are open a ridiculous idea. Seniors overall do not get up any earlier than anyone else. In fact, it is people going to work of whatever age that tend to get up earliest. We generally go to bed at midnight and get up at 8am. Then we have breakfast etc. before we would be ready to think about going out for a pick-up. If they want to designate a Seniors Hour, then 1-2pm would be a far better time. Those working will not be trying to make a quick lunch hour dash and those not working can as easily wait till 2pm as 9am.


This is where there needs to be a little give and take. I know a lot of seniors that wake up really early. It seems to be the ones much older (80s & 90s) that get up earlier, but you can't make everyone happy based on their sleep schedules. 

Logistically first thing in the morning is the BEST time to shop. The store has been well stocked and cleaned over night. If you had a 1-2 time, they would have to close down the store for everyone for a few of hours before 1-2 to clean and restock. Opening a store at 8am, then closing for cleaning and restocking for seniors at 10, then opening from at 1 really doesn't make sense. What if the seniors eat lunch at noon, and need time to digest to get there? Basing shopping times based on preferred sleep schedules is just unrealistic. If senior who is not working wants to shop, they can choose to go change their schedule once every week or two. Expecting a store and all the other customers to lose potentially 4 hours of daytime shopping is not realistic.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

IF it comes down to a choice of waiting in line for 10 minutes during seniors hour or 45 minutes later in the day.....I will make sure that I am dressed and out the house. Hardly a big deal.

These are challenging times. We have to adapt until this scourge passes. Choose your time and go with it. Don't assume everyone else has the same view.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> 400 k-cups? why aren't you using reusables?
> 
> 300 rolls of TP is insane, that's 3 years for my family of 4. I understand stocking up, but Costco has the same sales every few months.
> 
> Now we know why there are shortages. 3 years of toilet paper, wow.


Why not just brew coffee? It would be cheaper to brew a pot and throw most of it out rather than use pods.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I find the 'Seniors hour' being offered for the first hour they are open a ridiculous idea. Seniors overall do not get up any earlier than anyone else. In fact, it is people going to work of whatever age that tend to get up earliest. We generally go to bed at midnight and get up at 8am. Then we have breakfast etc. before we would be ready to think about going out for a pick-up. If they want to designate a Seniors Hour, then 1-2pm would be a far better time. Those working will not be trying to make a quick lunch hour dash and those not working can as easily wait till 2pm as 9am.


Good thing your local grocery store is at your neck and call for delivery. You can receive your groceries in your pj's.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> Sounds like a “collector” and not a “shopper”


How much paper products anyone uses does seem to differ considerably. I know my wife uses much more than I do of all categories, TP, paper towels and facial tissues. Where I will pull one tissue out of the box to blow my nose, she pulls out 2 or 3 for example and the same pretty much applies to TP and paper towels as well.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My wife does all the shopping, except I am in charge of the "goodies" drawer. She doesn't like that I grab stuff and put it in the basket.

The TP binge started a few years ago when our son was living with a girl.

He was coming over all the time to "borrow" TP and we finally asked what they were doing with it all.

He said she used a roll just to take off her makeup, and she did that a couple times a day. So, my wife started buying the jumbo rolls on sale.

We told him he needed to talk to her about it, but that wasn't going to happen because she had a fiery temper.

After they broke up (the aforementioned temper), he no longer came over for TP, but my wife kept buying the jumbos and storing them.

Now we always have a good stash built up. Old habits die hard.......LOL

The coffee.....yea, that is a bit of hoarding right there, but we buy the 110 pod boxes from Costco and who knows how long they will stay open.

I read the entire supply chain has about 3 days worth of food at any given time. If things get really bad the food could vanish pretty quickly.

I also watched a news article that TP is always the first to go in any natural disaster or problem.

Flooding, hurricanes, forest fires, volcanic eruption, virus epidemic.......don't matter, grab the TP before it is gone......


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I read the entire supply chain has about 3 days worth of food at any given time. If things get really bad the food could vanish pretty quickly.


Do you honestly believe that?

Look at the manufacturing date of any of your non perishable food.
Almost all of it was made more than 3 days ago.

If the supply chain only has three days of food, where are they picking the Product of Canada apples that they're selling now?
They entered the supply chain last fall.

It's possible that fresh meat, particularly seafood might have a very short timeline, but for the rest, I just don't see how that is possible. Even theoretically, the supply chain is stuffed with months of food. An individual store might only have a few days, but they're just the last link in the chain.

Data also supports that even just the retailer has weeks of inventory themselves.








LBLCF Inventory Turnover | Loblaw - GuruFocus.com


LBLCF Inventory Turnover as of today (July 13, 2022) is 1.60. In depth view into Loblaw Inventory Turnover explanation, calculation, historical data and more




www.gurufocus.com












KR Inventory Turnover | The Kroger Co - GuruFocus.com


KR Inventory Turnover as of today (July 13, 2022) is 4.94. In depth view into The Kroger Co Inventory Turnover explanation, calculation, historical data and more




www.gurufocus.com





I'm sorry, but 3 days for the whole supply chain is wrong.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't know. This is the US but still......as the virus spreads into food production country.









One of the largest pork processing facilities in the US is closing until further notice


One of the country's largest pork processing facilities is closing until further notice as employees fall ill with Covid-19. The closure puts the country's meat supply at risk, said the CEO of Smithfield, which operates the plant.




www.cnn.com


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I don't know. This is the US but still......as the virus spreads into food production country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


6.5% of their workforce is sick. Of course the plant needs to shut down.

FYI, We've already had pork plant shutdowns in Canada.


http://www.olymel.ca/webfolder_download/638aca12bb5b90bc3408285141b32ca0/file.pdf


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

The bigger risk is too many idiots reading that news and rushing out to buy a 3 month supply of meat. The food supply chain will be mostly fine. But most of it is not built to handle sudden irrational surges in demand.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> I also watched a news article that TP is always the first to go in any natural disaster or problem.
> 
> Flooding, hurricanes, forest fires, volcanic eruption, virus epidemic.......don't matter, grab the TP before it is gone......


Maybe it's time for americans to learn about the bidet


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maple Leaf also closed their poultry processing plant in Brampton, Ontario.









Maple Leaf Foods plant closes after 3 employees test positive for COVID-19


A major poultry plant in Brampton, Ont. has suspended operations after three people working at the facility tested positive for COVID-19.




www.cp24.com





A lot of Ontario's produce is processed through the Ontario Food Terminal in Toronto. Thankfully, they have been able to remain open.





__





Ontario Food Terminal Board |







www.oftb.com


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> I read the entire supply chain has about 3 days worth of food at any given time. If things get really bad the food could vanish pretty quickly.


Nonsense. Stores have about two weeks on average (averaged over categories), some more, some less. Retailer warehouses another 7-10 days. Manufacturers another 14-60 days and commodities are stored in bulk with months of supply (how do you think we make it between harvests). 

TP disappeared because all those inventories are compressed, mainly because paper products take up so much damned space. Just look up in a Costco at how much they have sitting there.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> Maple Leaf also closed their poultry processing plant in Brampton, Ontario.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not all that much. All the big retailers have dedicated warehouses that dwarf the food terminal. It is mostly used by small distributors and stores.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Nonsense. Stores have about two weeks on average (averaged over categories), some more, some less. Retailer warehouses another 7-10 days. Manufacturers another 14-60 days and commodities are stored in bulk with months of supply (how do you think we make it between harvests).
> 
> TP disappeared because all those inventories are compressed, mainly because paper products take up so much damned space. Just look up in a Costco at how much they have sitting there.


not sure about the 2 weeks supply in stores. I’ve worked in a grocery store. There is VERY little food in the back area. 90% of the food is on the shelf. virtually no dry goods in the baclk...mostly freezer items, dairy and fresh fruits/veg. I bet a grocery store could be cleaned out in 2 days. We’re going on 4 weeks and still TP and cleaning supplies are not 100% restocked.....even with limits on buying.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

There was certainly no shortage of TP at our local Costco this week. No limits. Two different brands, stacked up up high as usual. Not certain why anyone would hoard it. Ditto for paper towels which I purchased. Same with coffee which has a shelf life even in sealed packages. Lots and lots of bbq chickens as well. The only oddity I saw was at Superstore. I bought a few cans of beans @98 cents each. The shrink wrapped packages of the same product, eight on the flat, were priced at $12.99. Costco had no cleaning supplies though-sold out when I was there.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> not sure about the 2 weeks supply in stores. I’ve worked in a grocery store. There is VERY little food in the back area. 90% of the food is on the shelf. virtually no dry goods in the baclk...mostly freezer items, dairy and fresh fruits/veg. I bet a grocery store could be cleaned out in 2 days. We’re going on 4 weeks and still TP and cleaning supplies are not 100% restocked.....even with limits on buying.


There is a lot of holding power on the shelves. This is averaging the whole store, too. Produce is probably only 2 days, meat maybe 3-4. Packaged goods could have weeks.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't think there will be a major supply disruption unless something goes drastically wrong, and that is the part I worry about........Murphy's Law


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Will this matter to members of this forum?


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## dadaswell (Jan 6, 2016)

Retired Peasant said:


> Can't they put the groceries outside the door, and you open it after they leave?


Yes, it was outside on the driveway. I wait for them inside of our garage...social distancing.... in order to tell them where to place the groceries. Otherwise, they come up to our front door which we are trying to avoid.


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## dadaswell (Jan 6, 2016)

ian said:


> We made our list. It was long because we had been away for several months and we never do much grocery shopping in the lead up to an extended trip.
> 
> As Costco shoppers, one thing we did after making a list was to redo the list based upon how the Costco store is laid out. That way I did not find myself going back and forth to different areas of the store for something that I did not notice on the list. Made the shop faster and it was better for distancing. Did not do this for the Superstore list....a mistake on my part plus I am not nearly as familiar with how the store is laid out.


This is exactly how I planned the big trip to Costco last week. I wanted to get out of there as fast as I could. And, I avoided senior hour...it's busier than a regular day opening!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ian said:


> We made our list. It was long because we had been away for several months and we never do much grocery shopping in the lead up to an extended trip.
> 
> As Costco shoppers, one thing we did after making a list was to redo the list based upon how the Costco store is laid out. That way I did not find myself going back and forth to different areas of the store for something that I did not notice on the list. Made the shop faster and it was better for distancing. Did not do this for the Superstore list....a mistake on my part plus I am not nearly as familiar with how the store is laid out.


I had my list made by sec Isn and layout, then I had to goto the superstore near my dads, total different Layout and I couldnt find stuff. I gave up after a while. Almost 3 hours, and still didn’t find everything. Most sale items weren’t available but shelves weren’t bare. I found about 70% of the stuff, but I think just lost a whole section somehow. I knew I was going to Costco later this week so didn’t go back. 

Social distancing was alright, but still a few idiots. There was one guy who stood right in the middle of an aisle end and manage to block four section as he was screaming loudly into the phone while we all waiting for him to move. We could see bits of water droplet hit his phone that he held at almost full arms length. I turned around the aisle and skipped that when the erosion behind me left. He then move into the next talking/yelling, touching all the items randomly. So changed shopping pattern and went to the other end of the store so I would see him again. The other group of people I had challenges were the seniors. I was really surprised. At least three couples were going opposite direction of person much everyone else,or they would come right up to me where I could elbow them. I tried to let them pass, and then she told me to move because she needed to get stuff where I had to shop. That happened wtwoce with two different people. I told them they will just need to wait and give a 6 feet which is one cart length and a step back. One listens and avoided me, the other one said, ‘well you should move because i am a senior. ‘ I responded ‘you should not one near me and give people space because you are a senior and you will most likely not recover if you get sick. You have more to lose than me, but yet I am the one trying to protect you. So give me my space and be patient I am buying for 5 seniors. ‘. She didn’t come near me again and waited after. 

In general, it wasn’t bad, it was just because I had some much stuff on the cart, and it was difficult to keep organized and shop for so many families. 

The positive notes, they were sanitizing all the carts and boxes for everyone.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> There is a lot of holding power on the shelves. This is averaging the whole store, too. Produce is probably only 2 days, meat maybe 3-4. Packaged goods could have weeks.


I don't think everyone understands the whole supply chain concept and why you hear about being 'only 3 days away'.

The '3 days away' refers to a comment made in 1906 by a guy named Alfred Henry Lewis who stated that, 'There are only 9 meals between mankind and anarchy.' He was talking about what could happen if you had high inflation and that resulted in breaking the supply chain. You can read about it here:
Nine Meals from Anarchy

The point that is applicalbe today is that the turnover of stock time has gone from a traditional 2 week period to a 3 day period nowadays. That doesn't mean every item on every shelve would be gone, it means the more popular items would be gone if no deliveries were coming in.

But as long as the supply chain is NOT broken, that really doesn't matter and there is no indication right now that there is any danger of the supply chain being broken. So there is no need to hoard and no need to fear we will run out of food. It's irrelevant how quickly it could cause problems if it never happens.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

panic buying (if it should re-occur with food instead of TP) would overpower the supply chain in days. Toilet paper and cleaning supplies prove this. its been a month and you still can’t find Lysol spray or wipes. Not saying it will happen with food, but the risk is there.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> panic buying (if it should re-occur with food instead of TP) would overpower the supply chain in days. Toilet paper and cleaning supplies prove this. its been a month and you still can’t find Lysol spray or wipes. Not saying it will happen with food, but the risk is there.


I got a laugh from a news item on CTV this morning Money172375. Apparently, panic buying and empty shelves has hit the hair dye section. There's nothing like vanity to drive a panic I guess. I find it pathetic.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> I got a laugh from a news item on CTV this morning Money172375. Apparently, panic buying and empty shelves has hit the hair dye section. There's nothing like vanity to drive a panic I guess. I find it pathetic.


every man (or woman) for him/herself. The pandemic has/will cause me to change my buying habits. We typically were ok for food with a 10 day supply but always ran pretty lean on TP, shampoo, paper towels, toothpaste etc. I’ve now decided to buy one pack of TP every time we shop. I hope this isn’t considered hoarding. I’m actually surprised that hand soap hasn’t disappeared yet.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Better safe than sorry and it doesn't cost any more to buy ahead of time.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I don't think everyone understands the whole supply chain concept and why you hear about being 'only 3 days away'.
> 
> The '3 days away' refers to a comment made in 1906 by a guy named Alfred Henry Lewis who stated that, 'There are only 9 meals between mankind and anarchy.' He was talking about what could happen if you had high inflation and that resulted in breaking the supply chain. You can read about it here:
> Nine Meals from Anarchy
> ...


No one is claiming that individual items may not go out of stock. This happens in normal times every day. There is a concept in supply chain management called level of service. Guaranteeing 100% availability is virtually impossible, and the closer to 100% you get, the more expensive it is (to the point of impracticality).

However, I can tell you that there is more than 3 days of stock in a a typical grocery store. Nevermind the whole upstream supply chain. Be open to the idea that some people may know more about a subject than you. And you can look at grocer financial reports to see their declared inventory. Divide sales by inventory and you get turns. If there was only 3 days of stock, the grocers would have ~122 inventory turns. That is off by an order of magnitude.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> every man (or woman) for him/herself. The pandemic has/will cause me to change my buying habits. We typically were ok for food with a 10 day supply but always ran pretty lean on TP, shampoo, paper towels, toothpaste etc. I’ve now decided to buy one pack of TP every time we shop. I hope this isn’t considered hoarding. I’m actually surprised that hand soap hasn’t disappeared yet.


Pump soap disappeared for weeks. Starting to see it again. Bar soap was always available. Humans are kinda dumb. Everyone wanted antibacterial soap to protect against a virus. The only thing in antibacterial soap that protects from viruses is the soap (and not the antibacterial agent).


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Just curious on what people think is the differ necessarily between panic buying, hoarding, bulk buying, or being prepared. 

Panic buying and horsing is bad but bulk buying and being prepared is desirable, So what are thresholds? Is it a number of items, is it the length of time it will take you to use it, is it if it will goto waste, what determines the buying amounts acceptable?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> Just curious on what people think is the differ necessarily between panic buying, hoarding, bulk buying, or being prepared.
> 
> Panic buying and horsing is bad but bulk buying and being prepared is desirable, So what are thresholds? Is it a number of items, is it the length of time it will take you to use it, is it if it will goto waste, what determines the buying amounts acceptable?


My definitions
Panic Buying - Buying stuff without a plan or forethought simply because you think you need something, so you buy anything. This would be an immediate reaction to a recent or imminent event.

Hoarding - Buying more than you need. Negative connotations suggest buying the last items, or excessively.

Bulk Buying - Buying larger quantities to use over time. For me this is just buying from Costco instead of Walmart. The individual packs are typical 4x or larger.

Being prepared - Building up a planned organized stockpile over time. This would include some sort of plan on how the items would be consumed, and it would not be a sudden purchase based on a news event.

I think if you were buying a bit extra (20-50% per trip) no later than January and February, and not clearing out the store stock. 
I think buying 2-3x normal the week after march break was panic buying, hoarding, or just being a selfish jerk.

Myself I have a bulk buying plan, when Items go on sale at Costco, I buy 3-4 months worth so that I make it to the next sale.
Dishwasher soap, laundry soap, TP, Ziplock bags, batteries are common sale items.


Finally I just ordered my groceries for Tuesday Pickup at Walmart, there was 1 spot available, otherwise we're several days, or even a week out.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Just curious on what people think is the differ necessarily between panic buying, hoarding, bulk buying, or being prepared.
> 
> Panic buying and horsing is bad but bulk buying and being prepared is desirable, So what are thresholds? Is it a number of items, is it the length of time it will take you to use it, is it if it will goto waste, what determines the buying amounts acceptable?


Panic buying is reactive to current events. If everyone panic bought in reaction to the same event it results in some hoarding what others need and can no longer buy

Buying for preparedness is proactive to potential events. If everyone bought essential supplies in bulk in advance, in a staggered fashion, society would be much better prepared to weather a storm, donate to those in need, or at least leave what's on the shelf for those who couldn't afford to prepare in advance. If planned according nothing should go to waste (stock up until expiration and then use the oldest supply)

If everyone does anything at the same time it overwhelms any system. The idea of preparedness is to stock up before the crisis and panic buying starts


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> Just curious on what people think is the differ necessarily between panic buying, hoarding, bulk buying, or being prepared.
> 
> Panic buying and horsing is bad but bulk buying and being prepared is desirable, So what are thresholds? Is it a number of items, is it the length of time it will take you to use it, is it if it will goto waste, what determines the buying amounts acceptable?


Waste is a great guideline IMO, you shouldn't have any significant waste. Beyond that, for things that go don't really go bad, I guess 1-2 months worth would be the cut off for most things but there are always exceptions. I mean if I buy dish soap in a 3-4L jug that'll last me a about a year. I buy one bag of Costco TP and under "normal conditions" resupply when I get down to 3-4 rolls months later.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The one thing we


andrewf said:


> No one is claiming that individual items may not go out of stock. This happens in normal times every day. There is a concept in supply chain management called level of service. Guaranteeing 100% availability is virtually impossible, and the closer to 100% you get, the more expensive it is (to the point of impracticality).
> 
> However, I can tell you that there is more than 3 days of stock in a a typical grocery store. Nevermind the whole upstream supply chain. Be open to the idea that some people may know more about a subject than you. And you can look at grocer financial reports to see their declared inventory. Divide sales by inventory and you get turns. If there was only 3 days of stock, the grocers would have ~122 inventory turns. That is off by an order of magnitude.


It isn't just a question of 'turns' andrewf. It is a question about human behaviour. If you read the article I linked Nine Meals from Anarchy, you will see how runaway inflation could cause it to lead to anarchy. A pandemic could cause the same thing but just in a different way.

Today on the news, the shipping company Oceanex is reported as saying they may have to shut down. As a result, up to 50% of the food supply to Newfoundland could be cut off. What do you think people hearing that in Newfoundland are likely to start doing even before it happens? https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/newfoundland-labrador-pandemic-covid-coronavirus-1.5530903

IF, it did come to pass, what would they do then? I don't care how many 'turns' a supermarket works on and neither does anyone else. You are simply being pedantic because you believe you know how a supermarket handles inventory. Who cares? We ALL only care about is there food on the shelves or not and IF we think there may not be, our behaviour changes dramatically. In the inflation scenario in the article, it isn't saying that after 3 days people will be fighting over a loaf of bread but they will be headed in that direction in a relatively short time. 

The 9 meals from anarchy simply refers to what will happen AFTER you have gone without food for nine meals/3 days. 

But again, as long as that does NOT happen, we do not need to worry about it and there is no indication that our food supply chain in threatened in Canada other than now this news re Newfoundland. I'm sure that will be addressed by government to insure it doesn't actually happen.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> Panic buying is reactive to current events. If everyone panic bought in reaction to the same event it results in some hoarding what others need and can no longer buy
> 
> Buying for preparedness is proactive to potential events. If everyone bought essential supplies in bulk in advance, in a staggered fashion, society would be much better prepared to weather a storm, donate to those in need, or at least leave what's on the shelf for those who couldn't afford to prepare in advance. If planned according nothing should go to waste (stock up until expiration and then use the oldest supply)
> 
> If everyone does anything at the same time it overwhelms any system. The idea of preparedness is to stock up before the crisis and panic buying starts


Best description of all m3s.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> The one thing we
> 
> It isn't just a question of 'turns' andrewf. It is a question about human behaviour. If you read the article I linked Nine Meals from Anarchy, you will see how runaway inflation could cause it to lead to anarchy. A pandemic could cause the same thing but just in a different way.
> 
> ...


People may panic. But the government is going to pay to keep Oceanex sailing. It is critical infrastructure. It is just a matter of money $$$. Heck, the province of NL would pay for it if necessary.

I am not being pedantic. I am carefully and clearly stating that the idea that there is only 3 days worth of food in the system is WRONG. This is a dangerous falsehood to be promulgating because it is an idea that can cause panic. I don't care if you think I am being pedantic (pot calling the kettle at any rate).


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Province of NFLD is broke. They called the PM and said they couldn't meet their public servant payroll without money.

Somebody might pay to keep the company operating, but it won't be the Province. All money roads lead to Ottawa these days.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

NL can't borrow? Or are they bad at raising money because they are a small province?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_As reported by the CBC, Ball told Trudeau the attempts to borrow money to keep the province functioning were rejected, as of March 20.

“I must bring to your attention the immediate and urgent financial crisis that Newfoundland and Labrador is facing. To put it bluntly, our recent attempts to finalize our borrowing program, both short term and long term, have been unsuccessful,” Ball wrote.

“We have no other recourse to raise the necessary funds to maintain the operations of government, including our health-care system, especially at this critical time.”_


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I posted elsewhere that the government should set aside $1 Trilllion to battle the COVID.

A ridiculous amount of money to be sure, but now I am thinking it might not be enough.

I don't think the other Provinces are in much better shape than NFLD.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

NFLD , has arguably been most mis managed province from a financial perspective for decades. I suspect if one looked up Government waste and misadventure Newfoundlands name would appear as a prime example. Muscrat Falls was just the latest but it certainly has the most impact. Not certain why this is and why it seems to have been tolerated by Newfoundlanders for such a long time.

Like any person or corporate body who is head of heals in debt, at some point they reach a brick wall in terms of credit extensions. Perhaps Newfoundland is there.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I posted elsewhere that the government should set aside $1 Trilllion to battle the COVID.
> 
> A ridiculous amount of money to be sure, but now I am thinking it might not be enough.
> 
> I don't think the other Provinces are in much better shape than NFLD.


We're likely going to spend way more than the money already committed.
I honestly think that it's really starting to look like the COVID19 measures have the potential to be worse than COVID19 itself.

I hate to say it, but when we start looking at the cost of saving each life at 10's of millions of dollars, and getting to 50% or more of the GDP (as SAGS recommends) just for this one single event, it is quickly becoming apparent that we might not be able to afford this fight.

That's just the immediate cost, not the ongoing cost of sustaining all these new programs and standards that they're rushing into practice.

I'm not saying we should pull back yet, but we really need a plan to move forward. If they don't figure out how to get things going, the COVID19 measures are going to end up doing more damage than COVID19 would have itself.

I'm not saying go full Sweden, but I'm concerned.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> We're likely going to spend way more than the money already committed.
> I honestly think that it's really starting to look like the COVID19 measures have the potential to be worse than COVID19 itself.
> 
> I hate to say it, but when we start looking at the cost of saving each life at 10's of millions of dollars, and getting to 50% or more of the GDP (as SAGS recommends) just for this one single event, it is quickly becoming apparent that we might not be able to afford this fight.
> ...


MrMatt, you are trying to apply FISCAL LOGIC to something where it really isn't applicable. Let me put it to you this way. If your choice is to have your Mother die or not, how much MONEY is it worth? What is HER value in $$$$?

It isn't a question of being able to AFFORD this fight in monetary terms, it is a question of whether we are prepared to put money ahead of lives and if we are, what does it say about us as a society?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Debt doesn't matter anymore. It will never be paid back anyways. There will be a debt jubilee declared and society will move on.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> MrMatt, you are trying to apply FISCAL LOGIC to something where it really isn't applicable. Let me put it to you this way. If your choice is to have your Mother die or not, how much MONEY is it worth? What is HER value in $$$$?
> 
> It isn't a question of being able to AFFORD this fight in monetary terms, it is a question of whether we are prepared to put money ahead of lives and if we are, what does it say about us as a society?


Money isn't just about numbers in a budget. Ultimately, money represents people's labour. So let me rephrase the question this way: how many people, working full time, should we dedicate to the care of one senior? "as many as it takes" is not an answer. We need people doing things besides caring for seniors. It's not about "putting money ahead of lives". It's about keeping a balance in society.

Do you think it would be reasonable to have 1 person working full time for a year to extend a senior's life by 1 year? How about 10? 100? If life is "priceless", should we not have 1000 people working around the clock to extend that one senior's life by one year? Do you honestly think that makes sense? "fiscal logic", as you put it, is just a shortcut for those questions and many more like them.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> It isn't a question of being able to AFFORD this fight in monetary terms, it is a question of whether we are prepared to put money ahead of lives and if we are, what does it say about us as a society?


We do put money ahead of lives. Every single year we let 3000 - 4000 people die from the flu instead of shutting down the economy and quarantining people.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> MrMatt, you are trying to apply FISCAL LOGIC to something where it really isn't applicable. Let me put it to you this way. If your choice is to have your Mother die or not, how much MONEY is it worth? What is HER value in $$$$?
> 
> It isn't a question of being able to AFFORD this fight in monetary terms, it is a question of whether we are prepared to put money ahead of lives and if we are, what does it say about us as a society?


My family was in a similar scenario and we did have to ask this question for my mother. When looking at her care options after a stroke, we research all possibilities with quite an extensive range of a couple thousand a month to ten of thousands for care and equipment. All the kids were willing to pay for 'whatever it took' and we will find a way. My dad's wisdom said there is no point putting all the resources of the families to extend the inventible at the expense of the younger generations (us and the grandkids). The direction he had was we should be able to pay for a care based on the amounts they had in retirement without dipping into the college funds, savings, retirement etc. He thought it was stupid and irresponsible to throw all this money in for them. He just asked that we visit and make ever remaining days the best for them without too much hardship. 

We also were given this same directive when choosing for his care. Pay for what we can reasonably afford without robbing the future generations. It's been consistent in our family with this thinking. It is not all costs because you still have to think about the future. Under no circumstances should any choice we make for his final care or life should it jeopardize the future generations.

So the question is how much are you PERSONALLY willing to pay for someone to live. How much would you want your kids or grandkids to pay out of their livelihood so you could survive. The question isn't simply health. If you could have a better chance living, would you take your children's, grandchildren's current savings plus their future earnings to extend your chance to live. Grim, but it is a discussion that my family has had extensively. It is not just a health question, practicality needs to be considered.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Debt doesn't matter anymore. It will never be paid back anyways. There will be a debt jubilee declared and society will move on.


Do you realize how devestating that would be?
When you go to your bank and they say "nope, we don't owe you that debt", and your account is GONE.
Your pension is GONE.

Oh wait, you want to screw over someone ELSE, like those big corporations. Which give everyone jobs, keep us fed, and just so happen to fund our retirements. Even CPP is invested in equities.

The problem with this is that we have a society running on debt, and it has no slack to handle interruptions.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Do you realize how devestating that would be?
> When you go to your bank and they say "nope, we don't owe you that debt", and your account is GONE.
> Your pension is GONE.
> 
> ...


I just ignored that comment. He means all the debts _except those owed to him_ should be wiped out. He still wants his.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> MrMatt, you are trying to apply FISCAL LOGIC to something where it really isn't applicable. Let me put it to you this way. If your choice is to have your Mother die or not, how much MONEY is it worth? What is HER value in $$$$?
> 
> It isn't a question of being able to AFFORD this fight in monetary terms, it is a question of whether we are prepared to put money ahead of lives and if we are, what does it say about us as a society?


Actually it is a fiscal problem.
If I have a choice between paying to save my mothers life, and paying to save my 2 sons life, they win.
If I had a choice between paying to save my life, and my 2 kids lives, they win again.

Question.
Now I have to throw the question back at you. If you only have enough money to pay to take care of your Mother or your Children, who do you pick?

I'm not talking about killing people off so I can afford to go to the cottage this weekend. 
I'm talking about the very real trade off that we can't afford to spend unlimited money to save lives. 

Te real dirtry "secret" is that the government has been doing this in health care this whole time. Do you even know how many essential life saving treatments are denied under our Government Health insurance?
Are you aware that people take their life savings and go to countries that allow them to pay for health care that Canadian provinces said no to?
Do you know that if you're a certain age, you get second rate care because "it's not worth" giving everyone the "good" medical devices.
Heck the government decided that our lives weren't worth the cost of maintaining a stockpile of masks. They're valuing lives WAY lower than I do.

I'm just saying that at some point, it will cost more lives to to save a covid patient than it's worth. I think if it costs 2 lives to save a covid patient, killing those 2 people to save 1 is wrong.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I enjoy the commentary, but perhaps a new thread so others may benefit?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Actually it is a fiscal problem.
> If I have a choice between paying to save my mothers life, and paying to save my 2 sons life, they win.
> If I had a choice between paying to save my life, and my 2 kids lives, they win again.
> 
> ...



One of the things that happen with discussions like this one is that people go to a 'either/or' scenario or a 'one extreme vs another extreme' scenario.

I don't think we should save one life at the expense of two others. I don't think we should save a life at 'any cost' in money. I DO think we should save as many lives as it is practical to expect we can save. So for example, on another thread we have been discussing Canada's 50% of all deaths being in nursing homes vs. the UK's 15%. That difference does not have to exist, it is not costing the UK say a $1 mil per life to achieve. Their system of healthcare for seniors is simply better than our system, not necessarily more expensive. 

The irony in that comparison is that overall Canada is doing far better coping with the virus than the UK is, just not when it comes to our seniors.

So my point is you don't have to go to extremes to save lives, you just have to do a BETTER job with what you have available and that means in fiscal terms as much as in any other terms.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Minister of Agriculture is warning of possible supply chain problems in the future.

Load up while you can. We are going to buy extended life types of products........more Mr. Noodles and cans of corned beef types of foods.

Yummy yummy in my tummy. Now if only I can figure out how to open the can without messing it all up.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> The Minister of Agriculture is warning of possible supply chain problems in the future.
> 
> Load up while you can. We are going to buy extended life types of products........more Mr. Noodles and cans of corned beef types of foods.
> 
> ...


Fray Bentos corn beef in a can is my personal preferred brand sags but Hereford is also fine. 

Interestingly, it has been a part of my diet since I was a child. During WW2 when Americans were eating Spam, Brits were eating corned beef in the can. It has continued to be a staple in many households there ever since.

As immigrants to Canada from Scotland in the 50s, my parents continued to buy it and I still buy it today as a result of having grown up eating 'Stovies'. Stovies is a Scottish recipe that has many variations but usually the basic ingredient is canned corn beef. 








Stovies


A Scottish dish of potatoes cooked with onions and corned beef. It's a whole meal in itself; simple and easy to make!




www.allrecipes.com





My Mother's recipe which I continue to use differs from that example in that I use water rather than milk and more of it to get a more soup/stew type consistency. The example in that link looks to dry to me. I prefer more liquidity. But regardless, it is simple to make, cornbeef, potatoes, onions, water, fast and provides a very nourishing meal, especially on a cold day. I was brought up to dip buttered bread in it as well when eating it.

Also interesting (at least I think so) is the reverse that I found when living in Scotland. You cannot get deli corned beef like we do here in Canada. You know, like these pictures:




__





corn beef sandwich photos - Google Search






www.google.com





If you were to ask for a 'corn beef on rye' what you would get is some canned corned beef on your rye bread.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We haven't been able to find any sliced corn beef in the stores or delis lately.

I think it is like liver and onions. Younger people aren't really interested in it.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> One of the things that happen with discussions like this one is that people go to a 'either/or' scenario or a 'one extreme vs another extreme' scenario.
> 
> I don't think we should save one life at the expense of two others. I don't think we should save a life at 'any cost' in money. I DO think we should save as many lives as it is practical to expect we can save. So for example, on another thread we have been discussing Canada's 50% of all deaths being in nursing homes vs. the UK's 15%. That difference does not have to exist, it is not costing the UK say a $1 mil per life to achieve. Their system of healthcare for seniors is simply better than our system, not necessarily more expensive.
> 
> ...


I agree, there is a nuance and balance to be made.
The problem is that there are people who are trying to shut down any talk of loosening the lockdown and misrepresenting it as a discussion of lives vs money. I'm only talking about lives vs lives of the options, and I want our government to keep that balance in mind.

Being against an unreasonable lockdown and for a reasonable lockdown is actually the ethically valid position.
Being for an unreasonable lockdown is simply wrong.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I just made one of my favourite really simple meals. It is a caramelized cabbage cooked in bacon fat. Fantastic. Basically just cabbage, bacon, salt and pepper. Takes a while to actually cook but otherwise really simple.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> Money isn't just about numbers in a budget. Ultimately, money represents people's labour. So let me rephrase the question this way: how many people, working full time, should we dedicate to the care of one senior? "as many as it takes" is not an answer. We need people doing things besides caring for seniors. It's not about "putting money ahead of lives". It's about keeping a balance in society.
> 
> Do you think it would be reasonable to have 1 person working full time for a year to extend a senior's life by 1 year? How about 10? 100? If life is "priceless", should we not have 1000 people working around the clock to extend that one senior's life by one year? Do you honestly think that makes sense? "fiscal logic", as you put it, is just a shortcut for those questions and many more like them.


That's a very clear way to put it. But we already provide 24/7 care for people when needed, it is just needed so rarely that it's "affordable".


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> I just made one of my favourite really simple meals. It is a caramelized cabbage cooked in bacon fat. Fantastic. Basically just cabbage, bacon, salt and pepper. Takes a while to actually cook but otherwise really simple.


Sounds like I might like it but my wife is never going to let me try it. As soon as you talk about 'in 'bacon fat', that's a non-starter. 

Coming from the UK and with a healthcare background, my wife looks at our 'streaky bacon' as she calls it and is shocked that people would eat something with that much fat. Bacon with very little fat is the norm in most of Europe. Fortunately, our 'Canadian Bacon' is considered acceptable for eating by my wife and so I can have peameal bacon on a bun without her admonishing me for eating fat.

Here is a good explanation: A Guide to Bacon Styles, and How to Make Proper British Rashers | The Paupered Chef


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Why does our bacon have so much fat ?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Why does our bacon have so much fat ?


Well read the link I provided sags and you will understand why that is the case.

What you are calling 'our bacon' is in fact American bacon. They went off on their own and called an entirely different cut from a different part of the pig, 'bacon'. Here in Canada, most people when they say 'bacon' are referring to the American cut. We also have 'Canadian bacon' which is more akin to the UK version of bacon in terms of what cut of the pig you are talking about. We also call it 'back bacon' and 'peameal bacon'. Americans refer to those as 'Canadian bacon'


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Sounds like I might like it but my wife is never going to let me try it. As soon as you talk about 'in 'bacon fat', that's a non-starter.
> 
> Coming from the UK and with a healthcare background, my wife looks at our 'streaky bacon' as she calls it and is shocked that people would eat something with that much fat. Bacon with very little fat is the norm in most of Europe. Fortunately, our 'Canadian Bacon' is considered acceptable for eating by my wife and so I can have peameal bacon on a bun without her admonishing me for eating fat.
> 
> Here is a good explanation: A Guide to Bacon Styles, and How to Make Proper British Rashers | The Paupered Chef


You could make it without bacon. Say, with a bunch of olive oil. You do not a lot of oil/fat to cook it though. A whole cabbage makes about 4 meals.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longer lines and more limits on meat this morning. I’m still not entirely confident with the food supply (or should I say processing). The raw materials seem Available but the worry of available workers now exists. If there was a run on food, I have limited confidence in a quick resolution. They’re saying it could be the summer before we regularly see wipes, disinfectant sprays, masks. I hope all that stuff is going to health care, but I suspect not.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

andrewf said:


> You could make it without bacon. Say, with a bunch of olive oil. You do not a lot of oil/fat to cook it though. A whole cabbage makes about 4 meals.


 ... bacon? HBP, clogged arteries ... no thanks. Also, olive oil is expensively adulteratedly. I'll stick to cheap o' PB&J ... can do even without the bread.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Yeah, sugar is healthy!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... bacon? HBP, clogged arteries ... no thanks. Also, olive oil is expensively adulteratedly. I'll stick to cheap o' PB&J ... can do even without the bread.


I like lentils, though I cook them with a bit of coconut milk, tomatos and spices.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Cargill meat plant in Alberta has infected 358 people and the number is rising. The plant produced 50% of the beef for McDonald's Canada.

Another 3 food plants are infected in Alberta, which provide 75% of the beef across Canada. They may all be forced to shut down.

This is how supply chains get interrupted. Relax restrictions and there will be a lot more of these examples all across Canada.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The Cargill meat plant in Alberta has infected 358 people and the number is rising. The plant produced 50% of the beef for McDonald's Canada.
> 
> Another 3 food plants are infected in Alberta, which provide 75% of the beef across Canada. They may all be forced to shut down.
> 
> This is how supply chains get interrupted. Relax restrictions and there will be a lot more of these examples all across Canada.


That's why nobody is advocating for relaxing restrictions in areas that are not under control.
People are suggesting we create criteria for when and where we can relax restrictions. 
We could likely loosen restrictions for several million Canadians with minimal risk of COVID19 spread.

I would suggest that the larger population within Nunavut could move freely at this time.
Toronto should likely remain in strict lockdown.

Unfortunately for me, London should likely remain in lockdown until Toronto is under control, as I don't think there is public support for roadblocks on the 401 at this time.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> The Cargill meat plant in Alberta has infected 358 people and the number is rising. The plant produced 50% of the beef for McDonald's Canada.
> 
> Another 3 food plants are infected in Alberta, which provide 75% of the beef across Canada. They may all be forced to shut down.
> 
> This is how supply chains get interrupted. Relax restrictions and there will be a lot more of these examples all across Canada.


LOL, no one is going to die if McDonald's has to shut down sags. I'd shut down all drive through chains if I had my way. Most of the interactions I see at Timmy's are I am sure just people buying a coffee rather than being there to get a meal. Each interaction simply adds to the risk of infection.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> That's why nobody is advocating for relaxing restrictions in areas that are not under control.
> People are suggesting we create criteria for when and where we can relax restrictions.
> We could likely loosen restrictions for several million Canadians with minimal risk of COVID19 spread.
> 
> ...


That is a real problem with how to ease restrictions by area. If an area has got it under control, how do you keep people from outside coming in when you ease up. Actual physical restrictions on travel into and out of the area would have to be put in place. 

Imagine if you could go to a restaurant or bar in London but you could not in St. Thomas. How many roads would you have to block to stop someone from say St.Thomas going to a bar in London. Answer, too many to actually be possible to do.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> That is a real problem with how to ease restrictions by area. If an area has got it under control, how do you keep people from outside coming in when you ease up. Actual physical restrictions on travel into and out of the area would have to be put in place.


I gather it'll be done mainly at the provincial level though some area restrictions do exist in Canada.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> I gather it'll be done mainly at the provincial level though some area restrictions do exist in Canada.


Probably but even then it will present issues regarding tracing if people can come in and/or go out and return. If someone from say Toronto visits Winnipeg, infects a local and then leaves, how will the health authorities trace that unless the person was 'visiting with' the person infected and that person can then say, 'I had a visitor from Toronto, must have been him'. But that's not possible if it was say a bar worker who gets infected by who? Anyone who came into the bar is possible. 

So when they try to trace, they can't expect to do so and so they have to mark it up to 'community spread'. That don't forget, was the dividing line when we started. Traveller spread vs. community spread. When we could trace to traveller, we didn't have to shut down. Once it got to community spread we had to start shutting down.

It seems to me that whenever they decide to ease up anywhere, we an expect a second wave to then materialize in that area. It's just as if you went back to the start. So we could see cycling out of and back into restrictions happening.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I don't know what the numbers for Canada are but Walmart has now hired 150,000 workers in the US since this started and wants to hire another 50,000 still.








Walmart just hired 150,000 workers. It's hiring 50,000 more as coronavirus continues


Walmart is hiring 50,000 new workers, after hitting its previous goal of hiring 150,000 new employees more than six weeks ahead of schedule.




www.cnn.com





Presumably, here will be similar percentage wise which would translate to 15,000 and 5,000 for a total of 20,000 new hires. I would expect PC and Costco are doing much the same. That's a whole lot of those who have become unemployed from bars, restaurants, stores, etc. who can find a job with them for the 'duration'.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Probably but even then it will present issues regarding tracing if people can come in and/or go out and return. If someone from say Toronto visits Winnipeg, infects a local and then leaves, how will the health authorities trace that unless the person was 'visiting with' the person infected and that person can then say, 'I had a visitor from Toronto, must have been him'. But that's not possible if it was say a bar worker who gets infected by who? Anyone who came into the bar is possible.
> 
> So when they try to trace, they can't expect to do so and so they have to mark it up to 'community spread'. That don't forget, was the dividing line when we started. Traveller spread vs. community spread. When we could trace to traveller, we didn't have to shut down. Once it got to community spread we had to start shutting down.
> 
> It seems to me that whenever they decide to ease up anywhere, we an expect a second wave to then materialize in that area. It's just as if you went back to the start. So we could see cycling out of and back into restrictions happening.


No doubt it could cause a rise in cases in the area that eases restrictions. As we have in place now, all cross border visitors (Toronto - Winnipeg) would require a 14 day quarantine and I don't see that getting lifted anytime soon.

The reduction of regulations will likely be much slower than they went in and a key point to maintain is to make sure the hospitals don't get overwhelmed. In Manitoba there are only 7 covid-19 in hospital as of yesterday so I wouldn't be surpised if things gets eased in May sometime providing the numbers stay really low. For Ontario it might be June/July before they even start to consider their options.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> That is a real problem with how to ease restrictions by area. If an area has got it under control, how do you keep people from outside coming in when you ease up. Actual physical restrictions on travel into and out of the area would have to be put in place.
> 
> Imagine if you could go to a restaurant or bar in London but you could not in St. Thomas. How many roads would you have to block to stop someone from say St.Thomas going to a bar in London. Answer, too many to actually be possible to do.


I know, that's why *I said previously *that "London might not be able to relax lockdown until Toronto and Windsor are under control, as I don't think they can/should put roadblocks on the 401."
But Nunavut/saskatechwan, vancouver island or PEI might be able to handle this.

Secondly there is that whole freedom of travel and association in the constitution. 
We have to be very careful that the actions taken are reasonable, otherwise they become unconstitutional.
We don't want to be in the Michigan situation where government unreasonableness is pushing significant pushback from the population & parts of law enforcement. That's also why I think the government was wrong to wait until mid March to get serious, while I also think to take these actions in January when they first found out would have been premature, and rejected by the population.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> No doubt it could cause a rise in cases in the area that eases restrictions. As we have in place now, all cross border visitors (Toronto - Winnipeg) would require a 14 day quarantine and I don't see that getting lifted anytime soon.
> 
> The reduction of regulations will likely be much slower than they went in and a key point to maintain is to make sure the hospitals don't get overwhelmed. In Manitoba there are only 7 covid-19 in hospital as of yesterday so I wouldn't be surpised if things gets eased in May sometime providing the numbers stay really low. For Ontario it might be June/July before they even start to consider their options.


Nunavut also has a 14 quarantine for out of territory travel.

I think it was irresponsible for the Federal government to not make 14 day quarantines mandatory during march break.


Secondly I'm very disappointed that the current plan is "wait for a vaccine", that's like waiting for a lottery ticket to retire.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I don't think anyone here is saying wait for a vaccine before lifting any restrictions at all MrMatt. That might be the point at which travel restrictions have to wait to be lifted though.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I don't think anyone here is saying wait for a vaccine before lifting any restrictions at all MrMatt. That might be the point at which travel restrictions have to wait to be lifted though.


Define "travel".
Some people are saying we should stay under the current lockdown until we get a vaccine. (I believe sags suggested this) I think that is wrong. 

I think we will have new normal travel restrictions even after COVID is gone. Even then I don't think a vaccine should be a necessary condition to relax some travel restrictions.
We loosened restrictions without a SARS-CoV vaccine, I think it may be an option to relax restrictions without a SARS-CoV2 vaccine as well.


My biggest concern with making everything dependant on a vaccine is that there is no guarantee that there will be a good vaccine. See previous post that explains this in detail, including the possibility that a vaccine may not be possible, and the risks of a bad vaccine that could make things work.

There are virii which a vaccine is not possible.
There are vaccines that have made things worse. (relates to viral targetting, it's very interesting though somewhat complex)

I prefer to have an effective vaccine, but since there is a small chance that a vaccine is not possible, we have to at least *consider *a plan that does not depend on a vaccine. 

That is all I'm saying.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I don't know what the numbers for Canada are but Walmart has now hired 150,000 workers in the US since this started and wants to hire another 50,000 still.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The US only gave people a one time cheque for $1200. Most people there are collecting EI benefits or nothing at all.

In Canada, people collect $2000 a month CERB. Why would they want a low income job that puts them at risk of contracting the virus ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

[


Longtimeago said:


> I don't think anyone here is saying wait for a vaccine before lifting any restrictions at all MrMatt. That might be the point at which travel restrictions have to wait to be lifted though.


I am.

I think it is foolish to relax the restrictions while there is no vaccine or cure.

The theory that outbreaks can be controlled isn't supported by the history of previous outbreaks all over the world.

The virus spreads like wildfire. One person brings the virus to work and hundreds get infected, the workplace closes and everyone must quarantine.

The tracking of the person's contacts would overwhelm the relatively small healthcare resources in the rural areas where this is being proposed.

Emergency room doctors talk of people coming in feeling sick and 15 minutes later they are dead.

How does that work in a rural area where a hospital may be 2 hours away ? Sorry.......lives are too precious to deliberately risk them.

Stay home. Wait for the all clear signal. Rebuild a better economy.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> [
> 
> I am.
> 
> ...


I agree with all that, except wait for the all clear signal.

There is no vaccine, there is no cure, I still don't think we should remain in this lockdown forever waiting for vaccines and cures that may not be possible.








When will a COVID-19 vaccine be ready?


Health officials have said that a vaccine could be ready next year, if we take some shortcuts.




www.livescience.com





I propose we should develop a plan to relax the lockdown even in the absence of vaccines and cures. I'm not definite on details or timelines, just that we can't wait forever for scientific breakthroughs that may not happen.

My question to you is twofold.
1. Given that there is no cure, and no vaccine available, do you honestly propose maintaining this lockdown possibly forever?
2. Assuming that the forever lockdown is also not acceptable, do you not think it is reasonable to make a plan?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Can we please keep this to online grocery shopping or grocery shopping in general.
I'm a Perpetrator too at times.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> ... In Canada, people collect $2000 a month CERB. Why would they want a low income job that puts them at risk of contracting the virus ?


The leadership/anti-bullying training company owner answered your question with that the part time job is a way to give back to his community in crisis.

He's used to revenues of $400K a year so I suspect he know that the $14 he currently works for is peanuts and that there likely are ways he could do better from a gov't program.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/grocery-industry-hiring-covid-1.5532391



Some are looking at the dollars/risk while others, despite your skepticism are looking at other things.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> Can we please keep this to online grocery shopping or grocery shopping in general.
> I'm a Perpetrator too at times.


Kind of funny that some who are deviating from grocery delivery have complained against perpetrators in the past.

Still long delays for grocery delivery in our area.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> Can we please keep this to online grocery shopping or grocery shopping in general.
> I'm a Perpetrator too at times.


Agreed, there is the general Covid 19 thread after all for non grocery shopping comments. Threads always stray off topic of course but it is possible to bring them back in line IF people just stop responding to non-topic comments. That of course takes restraint from people and some seem to have little of that they can call on. LOL

Deliveries and pickups in our area of Ontario are doing quite well. Sometimes a pickup slot from PC is 2 weeks away and sometimes there is one or more 3 days away. Why it varies still I don't know but I see that it does.

We still get delivery or pickup from our small local Foodland, same day service. We just put in a delivery order to our local Home Hardware for $200 in gardening supplies. It's that time of year when garden work needs to get going. My riding mower battery is charging as we speak and I will install it later today and give the grass its first cut of the season.

All the birds have been arriving back from their winter 'Snowbirding' down south and our 3 bird baths have been getting a real workout. All the spring bulbs are blooming, the birds are singing, our large magnolia is starting to show its first blooms, our resident chipmunk has been running around making us laugh at his antics. Not everything is doom and gloom, it's Spring!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I still think a lot of people are not putting in orders for at least 1 week of groceries at a time and that will of course take up delivery slots. An order for 10 items at $40 takes up the same slot as an order for 56 items at $200. 

People need to change their shopping habits.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I still think a lot of people are not putting in orders for at least 1 week of groceries at a time and that will of course take up delivery slots. An order for 10 items at $40 takes up the same slot as an order for 56 items at $200.
> 
> People need to change their shopping habits.


I'm doing 2 weeks at grocery and 4 weeks for Costco.
I know people with very social jobs are having a tough time, some of them are shopping socially.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Can we please keep this to online grocery shopping or grocery shopping in general.
> I'm a Perpetrator too at times.


I forgot to give my updates. Maybe it will help, maybe not.

I went to Costco last Wednesday in the afternoon. In our city, they have said there is ALWAYS a line up as they are only letting in 50 people at a time and let them in by the 5's after that. It took just under 15 minutes to get in. They were sanitizing the handles but not the whole cart. I have a small travel size spray bottle of Lysol and paper towel, so gave it an extra spray and wipe down once I got in. NO boxes or bags are allowed, you will need to go back to your car and lose your spot. They are suggesting no more than two people per membership unless there are extranuating circumstances (like a single parent with young kids). 

The store allowed for ample physical distancing. I had my mask on, but didn't really feel like I needed it until check out, but kept it on because I didn't want to go through the full protocol of taking it off properly. There was lots of stock of everything except hand sanitizer, Lysol cleaner and wipes, gloves, yeast, (most high demand items). I managed to get a thing of TP (lots there) and the last soap refill (it was on sale so lower in stock). The good thing was just before you entered, there was a board that listed what was sold out. It would have been better to have it on the outside so you didn't have to wait in line to see the outages.

The most difficult thing for me was that I was shopping for about a month out (last time I was there was beginning of March) and for 4 families. With no bags or boxes, it was so difficult to organize and my cart was so full. It was over $1000 shop. The staff where well positioned. There was someone letting people into the diary cooler and the produce cooler for social distancing, and two people managing the check out line for spacing. The cashier and bagger was amazing. When the saw how much stuff I had, they reorganized items in boxes for me so I could get them to the right people easier. They also gave me the hint to use a flat bed and get the boxes while I was in the store to organize as I shop. 

I felt much safer there than at the Superstore. I have heard not to go on weekends as the lines are up to 1.5 hours.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

My update for Click and Collect. I didn't want to use it so other could but have decided since I am shopping for others, and am trying to not see anyone for 14 days before I visit my elderly parent, I would give it a try.

Our click and collect is about 13 days out. Every night, new times are released but just one day at a time. The good news is Loblaws has adjusted their policy that you can now make changes to your cart 48 hours in advance to pick up without your spot being lost. That was one of the reasons I couldn't use it because people I was shopping for had no idea what they would run out of. Also, the prices were unknow two week ahead of time. I had a watermelon in my cart for $5 by two weeks later it was $13, now I could still adjust. 

I used the app ahead of time and added all my items to my cart. Once the time and day I wanted came out, I selected and checked out. They don't charge your credit card until the shop is done. Then I have been making adjustments along the way. I hope to be able to add meat and some produce that isn't always at regular price a few days before. 

So far so good, but my pick up is over a week and half away, so we will see how that goes then. I think with the ability to adjust items 3 days before, I will be able to come close to my pre-COVID shopping system. I still have to buy two weeks in advance as they system only allows one order to stand a time. Ideally, I would have a standing order every week so I don't have to buy so much milk and eggs which takes up a lot of space.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Our order from Home Hardware was just delivered 15 minutes ago. Ordered around 1.5 hours before that. Quicker than quick but of course a lot easier to do in a small town than in a city.

What my wife found interesting when she was going through their products online was all the items she never even knew they carried. Like TP and paper towels for example. One item she did order that she actually has always found harder to get even in the major supermarkets was 'Parchment Paper' for use with things baked on trays in the oven.

She phoned and said she was going to e-mail a list of primarily gardening items. They called shortly after to say they had the list, all items but one were in stock, the order was being picked and they would be out to deliver it shortly. For the one item not in stock, she said she could do without and they said, no, we will have in from the warehouse on Thursday and will deliver it on Friday, no problem. Fantastic service.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I forgot to give my updates. Maybe it will help, maybe not.
> 
> I went to Costco last Wednesday in the afternoon ... The good thing was just before you entered, there was a board that listed what was sold out. It would have been better to have it on the outside so you didn't have to wait in line to see the outages ...


Gone twice to two different Costco's. Both would have been busier but walk in. Both were allowing only two people per membership, in staggered groups. 

The first about three weeks ago had a single line of about seven people while the second one was walk straight in.

The list of what wasn't available was outside each store. The first one listed as out of stock hand sanitizer, wipes (Lysol or baby) and gloves. The second one added yard waste bags to pretty much the same list. 




Plugging Along said:


> ... I felt much safer there than at the Superstore. I have heard not to go on weekends as the lines are up to 1.5 hours.


Interesting ... Loblaws and Metro in our ares have been walk in whenever I have gone. I have seen a line of about ten people outside Freshco. A friend who went to the local Superstore on a Saturday posted a picture of what looked like thirty people in line waiting.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Our order from Home Hardware ...
> 
> What my wife found interesting when she was going through their products online was all the items she never even knew they carried. Like TP and paper towels for example. One item she did order that she actually has always found harder to get even in the major supermarkets was 'Parchment Paper' for use with things baked on trays in the oven ...


I guess I'm different in that pre-covid 19, I tended to wander though the store. My wanderings let me know that HH has this type of stuff. I tend to have bought more hardware, paint, small appliances than this stuff though.


Cheers


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Interesting ... Loblaws and Metro in our ares have been walk in whenever I have gone. I have seen a line of about ten people outside Freshco. A friend who went to the local Superstore on a Saturday posted a picture of what looked like thirty people in line waiting.
> 
> 
> Cheers


I think I didn't feel as safe at Superstore was not because of the line up outside, I can handle that, but how the store controlled the flow of shoppers or in Superstores case the lack of control. I also found the Superstore people seemed to have less awareness whereas Costco has naturally larger aisles which made it easier.

The outside lines up don't bother me as much as I have been selecting less busy times by using apps to monitor the line ups.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The second CERB cheque was issued last week. Things should slow down until the next one comes out around the middle of May.

Following the CERB benefit in May will be the extra $300 per child benefit increase, so late May early June will likely be shopping days for many.

The NDP was pressing the government for the CERB to be "universal" to everyone, so everybody might be shopping..........LOL.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I have not lined up at Walmart or Superstore. Twenty minutes at Costco. The Costco liquor store was empty. In and out in five minutes. So were the gas pumps.

I spoke to a staff member at the door who said that if I go at 8pm or so there is no line. That is what I will do from now on. I have a shopping list and don’t dither about looking at other items.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The second CERB cheque was issued last week. Things should slow down until the next one comes out around the middle of May.
> 
> Following the CERB benefit in May will be the extra $300 per child benefit increase, so late May early June will likely be shopping days for many.
> 
> The NDP was pressing the government for the CERB to be "universal" to everyone, so everybody might be shopping..........LOL.


I hope the NDP and CPC can push the Liberals to making this universal. The patchwork approach to CERB money is missing out on a lot of people who need help.
I'm glad parliment will be sitting, rumours are the Liberals are going to try and take advantage of this situation to pass a LOT of very bad laws.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Agree with you about Superstore. I have been to two stores. Both appeared to be going through the motions, one more than the other. Very similar to Walmart. Costco was doing a far better in every respect to protect customers and staff.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I forgot to give my updates. Maybe it will help, maybe not.
> 
> I went to Costco last Wednesday in the afternoon. In our city, they have said there is ALWAYS a line up as they are only letting in 50 people at a time and let them in by the 5's after that. It took just under 15 minutes to get in. They were sanitizing the handles but not the whole cart. I have a small travel size spray bottle of Lysol and paper towel, so gave it an extra spray and wipe down once I got in. NO boxes or bags are allowed, you will need to go back to your car and lose your spot. They are suggesting no more than two people per membership unless there are extranuating circumstances (like a single parent with young kids).
> 
> ...


I went to Superstore Sunday around 7pm. No line outside, no line at cash. I have yet to go to Costco since this started (shouldn't run out of my Costco staples for another few weeks).


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The local grocery store has senior hours 6-7am. I went at 7am after a night shift. A lot more seniors up and shopping on a Monday morning than expected but no lineups. 9 out of 10 wearing masks, bandanas etc and mostly shopping alone. I suppose those who get up at 6am for groceries probably take this more seriously.

The only aisles that looked empty was the toilet paper/paper towel. Apparently we also have local lock down protesters.. who happen to gather at the same corner as the recurring local Trump rally. Governor is disappointed the police keep having to kick people off closed golf courses, beaches and parking lot hang outs


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Starting to see stories of meat plants shutting down due to outbreaks. I’m trying to be optimistic as it appears many area of North America have peaked or flattened the curve.  Then, yet again, the WHO says, the worst is yet to come. We’ve seen limits on meat purchases in our community since the beginning of the pandemic. I’ve growing a little more apprehensive about the strength of our food supply. Places in the US are starting to recommend shopping be limited to certain days based on your last name.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Starting to see stories of meat plants shutting down due to outbreaks. I’m trying to be optimistic as it appears many area of North America have peaked or flattened the curve. Then, yet again, the WHO says, the worst is yet to come. We’ve seen limits on meat purchases in our community since the beginning of the pandemic. I’ve growing a little more apprehensive about the strength of our food supply. Places in the US are starting to recommend shopping be limited to certain days based on your last name.


Normally, I would be stocking up with beef for the year at the beginning of April when beef prices are lowest in the year. I have still been able to find some supply, but the prices are definitely higher and limited in stock. I think with Cargill shutting down, this will have a major supply issue in the coming weeks. 

My back up plan is to go right to the local butchers and farmers. Good thing we have great beef here. If I was elsewhere, I switch to other meats. With the pandemic, I think flexibility in our eating and shopping will help.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

It does look like beef availability is likely to be affected but the good news is we can live without that if we have to. I'm a definite meat eater, my wife not so much but if we had to make do with less or even none at all, it isn't life threatening.

Having said that, living in farm country we have several small local producers who do their own butchering and have a 'farm store' where they sell to the public. There are two within less than 15 minutes drive from our home. So once we run out of steaks in the freezer, if I really feel I just have to have some beef, I will probably be able to visit one of them and get some.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our neighbour did the Costco seniors morning hour shopping last week. He said it was a zoo-never again. Every senior in town seemed to be there. He was in line for 30-40 minutes. Far longer than he had experienced on his previous two mid afternoon trips.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

My SIL says lineups at Costco are over an hour in toronto


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The Costco Calgary Heritage store is one of the busiest. I have been twice. First time I waited 10-15 minutes, second time 20 minutes. Have not had to wait at any other store. Not a big issue since we only go once every two weeks or so.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> My SIL says lineups at Costco are over an hour in toronto


Good reason to not live in Toronto during a pandemic.

I grew up in Toronto but I wouldn't want to be living there right now. However, if I did, I think I would be looking to alternative to the big supermarkets and big box stores where 90% of people shop.

Toronto is full of all kinds of small grocery stores, delicatessens, etc. where you can buy food. For instance if I look in the Beach area of Toronto where I used to live, I find 4 grocers within a short distance of one another. I used to shop in the Foodland there which is still much like a small neighbourhood grocery store rather than a 'supermarket'.




__





toronto beaches supermarket - Google Search






www.google.com





I also know of a good deli and a bakery on the main street that are probably open for business. So why go to Costco?

People need to learn to change their habits these days.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I also know of a good deli and a bakery on the main street that are probably open for business. So why go to Costco?
> 
> People need to learn to change their habits these days.


Sooooo ... you saying go to multiple smaller stores instead of just one stop at Costco huh? lol


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Sooooo ... you saying go to multiple smaller stores instead of just one stop at Costco huh? lol


Well actually cainvest I would probably find the ones that are delivering or providing contact free pick up. 

So if you were trying to imply more interactions and risk, you're on a hiding to nowhere as my wife would say.

Besides, even if you were going INTO multiple smaller stores with less people in each, all in one trip, probably has less risk overall than standing in line at Costco for half an hour and then going inside where you encounter far more people, does.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Another meat plant suspending operations...









1 death connected to Cargill meat plant in High River as plant ‘idles’ processes | Globalnews.ca


Hinshaw said a total of 360 cases of COVID-19 have been identified in workers at the plant, with a total of 484 cases in the surrounding community linked to the outbreak at the facility.




globalnews.ca


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> So if you were trying to imply more interactions and risk, you're on a hiding to nowhere as my wife would say.
> 
> Besides, even if you were going INTO multiple smaller stores with less people in each, all in one trip, probably has less risk overall than standing in line at Costco for half an hour and then going inside where you encounter far more people, does.


Nope, not implying anything just shocked by you're even saying multiple store visits in one trip is ok ... a far cry from your very rigid position a few weeks ago. Nice!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Life isn't worth living without meat.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ian said:


> Our neighbour did the Costco seniors morning hour shopping last week. He said it was a zoo-never again. Every senior in town seemed to be there. He was in line for 30-40 minutes. Far longer than he had experienced on his previous two mid afternoon trips.


I have heard that about seniors hour. My sibling lives by the Costco and has driven by early on his way to seniors hour at Superstore. He said it is really busy at that time because everyone is trying to get hard to find items. If you don't need the hard to find items then going later in the day or I heard around 7pm is the best. They do restock, but you need to be flexible. 

The advice I got from Superstore go about 15 minutes after the seniors hour opens (if you are a senior) or about 30 minutes after it opens for everyone else, it allows them to clear out the lines of the really eager people. Don't go on flyer day (Friday) or the weekend if possible.



ian said:


> The Costco Calgary Heritage store is one of the busiest. I have been twice. First time I waited 10-15 minutes, second time 20 minutes. Have not had to wait at any other store. Not a big issue since we only go once every two weeks or so.


Okotoks is less busy if you are already done south. Beacon hill was the busiest, now Cross Iron is getting bad, the NE is pretty good, and East hills is inconsistent.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

m3s said:


> ... The only aisles that looked empty was the toilet paper/paper towel ...


Thanks the update ... back around Mar 13th (Florida) and 15th (Georgia) - fruit, bread, water and meat were the ones I noticed looking empty. 

Since being in Canada, today's the first day I noticed empty parts for flour. 

The on sale meat for prime rib roast looked like they might have been slowing releasing stock as it's usually more packed but I had the choice something over twenty roasts.




Money172375 said:


> Starting to see stories of meat plants shutting down due to outbreaks ... I’ve growing a little more apprehensive about the strength of our food supply ...


Agreed. IIRC, there was a series of consolidations - which may make it more difficult these days.




Money172375 said:


> ...Places in the US are starting to recommend shopping be limited to certain days based on your last name.


Hadn't heard that.


Cheers


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Money172375 said:
> ...Places in the US are starting to recommend shopping be limited to certain days based on your last name.
> 
> Hadn't heard that.


It wouldn't surprise me, the wannabe authoritarian dictators are running amok in some places.

They're ticketing people in their cars for watching the sunset.
They're filling skate parks with sand.
They've banned buying food seeds or plants from greenhouses.

I understand the concern for COVID19, but the actions being taken in some places appear to be an overreaction, and they're making the situation worse.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our friends in Panama tell us people have restricted shopping hours as well as very restricted two hour periods during the day when they can be out. Both based on the last didgit of your national ID number. They are very serious about enforcing it to the point where some areas have police roadblocks to check ID's. Panama is very serious about covid and they started early. Lots of public support for the measures.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We often go to Okotoks. Big line up at the store when we stopped last week to have the lug nuts on a tire torqued. We stopped going to Beacon Hill because of the hassle of getting in and out of the air. Worst traffic design we have seen. We would rather drive on to Balzac. Waiting for the new one on the SW ring road to open-next year???

We find that later in the day at Costco is good for produce-especially on a Thursday. You can see the fresh produce piled up down the freezer aisle and activity re-stocking the produce bins. Picked up produce last Thursday PM. Most of it had just arrived in the store that day


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> It wouldn't surprise me, the wannabe authoritarian dictators are running amok in some places.
> 
> They're ticketing people in their cars for watching the sunset.
> They're filling skate parks with sand.
> ...


if the lineups continue and the lack of supply continues for key items, then I might be in favour of this. or go back to regular (or extended hours). It Seems the shorter hours are causing the congestion.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ian said:


> We often go to Okotoks. Big line up at the store when we stopped last week to have the lug nuts on a tire torqued. We stopped going to Beacon Hill because of the hassle of getting in and out of the air. Worst traffic design we have seen. We would rather drive on to Balzac. Waiting for the new one on the SW ring road to open-next year???
> 
> We find that later in the day at Costco is good for produce-especially on a Thursday. You can see the fresh produce piled up down the freezer aisle and activity re-stocking the produce bins. Picked up produce last Thursday PM. Most of it had just arrived in the store that day


good info. I may switch my night to Thursday then. I am still trying to figured out my shopping system, it’s usually produce and meat I need. 

Also where is this new sw Costco going to be? Is it Deep South.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A chicken factory in Vancouver closing down.

They say that food packers are especially vulnerable to the virus because of the nature of the business.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

ian said:


> Our friends in Panama tell us people have restricted shopping hours as well as very restricted two hour periods during the day when they can be out. Both based on the last didgit of your national ID number ...


Bolivia is using a similar documentation system to track that it's one person per household, one day of the week for four hours.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> It wouldn't surprise me, the wannabe authoritarian dictators are running amok in some places ...
> I understand the concern for COVID19, but the actions being taken in some places appear to be an overreaction, and they're making the situation worse.


Maybe ... I'd more more info before deciding. 

We've had people here in Canada meet in groups that aren't concerned about staying apart. There's also been others that got upset at the delays/procedures then intentionally abused or coughed or spat on the cashier.

It could be an over reach/over reaction or it could be a reasonable response to what's happening.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Nope, not implying anything just shocked by you're even saying multiple store visits in one trip is ok ... a far cry from your very rigid position a few weeks ago. Nice!


Jeez cainvest, give yourself a rest. My position has not changed at all. One trip no oftener than once a week with minimum exposure to interactions. Stay home the rest of the time unless you are going to work.

Have you lived in the Beach area of Toronto, do you actually know what I am talking about? There is a Foodland, a bakery and a deli all within 2 blocks of each other. You could walk between them all in 5 minutes. But if you can get all you want at the Foodland, you don't have to go anywhere else. I only mentioned the bakery and deli as examples of other food sources that are available if you really just can't live without some decent bread and cheeses for example.

The point is that you do not have to go to the major chains that most people go to to get food either delivered, picked up or shop in the store yourself AND you will probably have less exposure doing so.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We just filled up the remaining room in the chest freezer.

I looked into buying another freezer and the earliest delivery was in July.......maybe. I looked at used ones online and people are advertising to buy them.

We could buy a bigger refrigerator, as we have one of the dinky rental unit types, but they drop it off outside and we would have to try to lug it into the house.

It looks like we have reached the end of the bulk shopping for this year.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I've posted here before about the requirement in France to print out a form and fill it in, every time you leave your house. You must produce it if asked to by the Police or you will be fined.








French people ignored officials' warnings to isolate themselves because of the coronavirus. Now they need a form to leave the house.


People in France must have a document justifying why they're outside, even just for a walk or to go to a shop, after they refused to stay indoors.




www.businessinsider.com





They instituted that because too many people were ignoring the advice to stay home as much as possible. So far, Canadians have tended to be more sensible and so we haven't had a need to get even tougher about it. With the possible exception of Quebec of course who never want to do what the rest of the country is doing, just out of general 'Quebec independence' principles.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> We just filled up the remaining room in the chest freezer.
> 
> I looked into buying another freezer and the earliest delivery was in July.......maybe. I looked at used ones online and people are advertising to buy them.
> 
> ...


Sags, you are a hoarder.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Maybe ... I'd more more info before deciding.
> 
> We've had people here in Canada meet in groups that aren't concerned about staying apart. There's also been others that got upset at the delays/procedures then intentionally abused or coughed or spat on the cashier.
> 
> It could be an over reach/over reaction or it could be a reasonable response to what's happening.


I think we have to separate groups.
1. Crimianls who are abusing and assaulting people.
2. Selfish narcisists or disbelievers who don't think the rules should apply to them. (This includes everyone from the Hoaxers to Trudeau)

I think the criminals should be responsible for the cleanup and care of any damage, and such debt should not be discharged through bankruptcy.
Also i think they should be jailed indefinately as a public health hazard.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Jeez cainvest, give yourself a rest. My position has not changed at all. One trip no oftener than once a week with minimum exposure to interactions. Stay home the rest of the time unless you are going to work.


Hasn't change huh, one store, once a week ... so why did you say ...



Longtimeago said:


> Besides, even if you were going INTO multiple smaller stores with less people in each, all in one trip, probably has less risk overall than standing in line at Costco for half an hour and then going inside where you encounter far more people, does.


It sounded like you reasoned out multiple trips to smaller and less crowded stores is better than one trip to a busy Costco ... my mistake.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Hasn't change huh, one store, once a week ... so why did you say ...
> 
> 
> It sounded like you reasoned out multiple trips to smaller and less crowded stores is better than one trip to a busy Costco ... my mistake.


I wrote as you quoted, "even if you were going INTO multiple smaller stores with less people in each, all in one trip,"

See the all in one trip part? Pick up (no contact) at Foodland and put it all in your vehicle parked at the sidewalk. Walk 2 minutes down the street and pick up from the Deli some French and Swiss cheese favourites (no contact, set on table outside the door while you stand back). Walk on a minute to the bakery and same process as at the Deli. Turn around and walk back to your vehicle. Total time spent doing all three perhaps 15 minutes. Drive home.

That's ONE trip with less exposure than ONE trip to Costco probably. It is not 3 separate trips, it is not even one trip to three separate stores that you go INTO. One trip, no exposure other than to surfaces.

The point being made was for people living in cities who are complaining they are having problems with shopping at Costco, PC, Walmart, etc. There are alternatives they could look into. I gave them an example, that's all.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I wrote as you quoted, "even if you were going INTO multiple smaller stores with less people in each, all in one trip,"
> 
> See the all in one trip part? Pick up (no contact) at Foodland and put it all in your vehicle parked at the sidewalk. Walk 2 minutes down the street and pick up from the Deli some French and Swiss cheese favourites (no contact, set on table outside the door while you stand back). Walk on a minute to the bakery and same process as at the Deli. Turn around and walk back to your vehicle. Total time spent doing all three perhaps 15 minutes. Drive home.


Awesome conditional backpedaling LTA, maybe lead off with those conditions next time? lol


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Sags, you are a hoarder.


Thanks......is a hoarder someone who wants to avoid hordes of frustrated and angry shoppers fighting over the last chicken leg ?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Awesome conditional backpedaling LTA, maybe lead off with those conditions next time? lol


Cainvest, if you are unable to cope with looking at two separate scenarios for shopping I don't know if you can be helped. But I'll try.

You go into Costco, go up and down some aisles picking up items. You stop by the bakery section and ask them to slice a loaf of bread for you. Then you stop by the meat grocery counter and ask for 250 grams of cornbeef to be sliced for you.

Someone else goes to a Foodland and does a curbside pickup, walks 100 yards to a bakery to get a loaf of bread and another 100 yards to pick up some sliced cornbeef.

Both make one trip, both do the same thing, the second actually has less contact (probably) than the first. 

If you think that is 'backpedaling' on my part, you are free to think so but you will still be wrong in fact. I never suggested in my example, making 3 different trips from your home or going into 3 different places etc. It's a simple concept to understand if you have any familiarity with shopping locally at butchers, bakers, candlestick makers rather than at big box stores. But maybe you have never been exposed to such a method of shopping.

And by the way, on that same trip you could also pick up a fresh made pizza placed on a table outside the door for contactless pickup if you remembered to phone and order it and pay by credit card over the phone when ordering. The pizza place is between the Deli and Foodland on your way back to your vehicle.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Thanks......is a hoarder someone who wants to avoid hordes of frustrated and angry shoppers fighting over the last chicken leg ?


No, a hoarder is someone who thinks they need to have more than a couple of weeks of supplies at a time. We get what we need once every 2 weeks with no bother. Delivery or contactless pick up. I've yet to see any 'hordes of frustrated and angry shoppers fighting over a chicken leg.' 

You are in fact offering an 'excuse', not a 'reason' to hoard.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Cainvest, if you are unable to cope with looking at two separate scenarios for shopping I don't know if you can be helped. But I'll try.


Like I said, you should have just mentioned "curbside pickup" in your original reply. Thanks for playing though ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

_I've yet to see any 'hordes of frustrated and angry shoppers fighting over a chicken leg.' _

You have never seen this kind of virus before either. Behold the Book of Revelations and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

There have been a few articles and facebook posts regarding people taking hard to find item out of people carts. It was mostly at the Costco and the big box stores. It seems to have stopped now. I can't imagine myself every being in a situation that I will fight someone for a grocery product but if someone came between me and the last bucket of my favorite ice cream, I would consider it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Think of what the Black Friday sales look like.........hmm.

Actually if you go to Youtube you can see lots of knock down battles in store aisles or fast food places.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I have done many Black Friday sales in the US before Black Friday was a thing here. That's usually not by hoarders, but deal seekers. 

It seems that things are getting much better here. I was able to get in for my online shopping, and then checked a few other places that weren't available, spots are starting to open up within a week or so. I think if people are flexible with their eating, it should be fine. We may end up with a few more vegetarian meals, but if I can find a way to get fresh produce and perishable weekly by using the pick up services at different places, I would rather do that. 

I still can't bring myself to pay double what I normally would on sale to stock up on meats and such.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

One thing that this is showing us is how many 'scatter brained' people there are who could not put together a two week grocery list even when their life may depend on it.

I believe a lot of those pick up slots are being taken up by people with fewer than 2 or even 1 week's groceries on their order. Either they aren't changing their shopping habits or they are incapable of doing so.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> One thing that this is showing us is how many 'scatter brained' people there are who could not put together a two week grocery list even when their life may depend on it.
> 
> I believe a lot of those pick up slots are being taken up by people with fewer than 2 or even 1 week's groceries on their order. Either they aren't changing their shopping habits or they are incapable of doing so.


or they can’t afford 2 large shops a month, and need to do 4 smaller shops a month.
we've been trying to shop twice a month, but I find we’re eating more (4 people at home vs 2 during normal times) and we need to go every 10 days.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I can understand people who can only afford to shop once a week vs. every two weeks but where is the rationalization for more often than once a week? 

I have a neighbour who is out in his pickup truck every 2 days on average. Where is he going and what for? He's retired, he has money, he sure doesn't need to shop every 2 days. I know he isn't doing any volunteering type thing either. Sometimes he's in and out a couple of times in the same day! 'Oh darn, I forgot to pick up a new toothbrush, better go back out and get one.' 

People are going to the convenience store just to buy lottery tickets. That's a necessary trip?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I have a neighbour who is out in his pickup truck every 2 days on average. Where is he going and what for?


Why not just ask him?

I'm out driving a couple of times a day taking the dog out.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The workload at the hospitals are less due to people staying home. 

They are calling people to take appointments for nuclear cardiac testing and people are refusing to go.

I find the bigger problem is the closing of most types of clinics. Little problems can turn into big problems if people can't get early care.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> One thing that this is showing us is how many 'scatter brained' people there are who could not put together a two week grocery list even when their life may depend on it.
> 
> I believe a lot of those pick up slots are being taken up by people with fewer than 2 or even 1 week's groceries on their order. Either they aren't changing their shopping habits or they are incapable of doing so.


One thing I noticed with PC is that you can only have one active basket/pickup window at a time, so if the backlog is 2 weeks, you can't use more than one pickup window (unless you use multiple accounts?).


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I can understand people who can only afford to shop once a week vs. every two weeks but where is the rationalization for more often than once a week?
> 
> I have a neighbour who is out in his pickup truck every 2 days on average. Where is he going and what for? He's retired, he has money, he sure doesn't need to shop every 2 days. I know he isn't doing any volunteering type thing either. Sometimes he's in and out a couple of times in the same day! 'Oh darn, I forgot to pick up a new toothbrush, better go back out and get one.'
> 
> People are going to the convenience store just to buy lottery tickets. That's a necessary trip?


My neighbour leaves just about every day for a little while, sometimes multiple times per day. I see his kids getting into a car (getting picked up) and then returning, sometimes 30 minutes later. I have no idea what they are doing--they didn't come back with food or anything. Some people are just 'busy'. My parents' neighbour shuffles vehicles around his driveway and into his shop all day. He starts vehicles probably 10-20 times a day. Maybe does a bit of work on one truck, then another one, then puts them outside, and back into the shop at the end of the day.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The workload at the hospitals are less due to people staying home.
> 
> They are calling people to take appointments for nuclear cardiac testing and people are refusing to go.
> 
> I find the bigger problem is the closing of most types of clinics. Little problems can turn into big problems if people can't get early care.


You're one of the goofballs arguing for an indefinite lockdown until we get a vaccine!!!

I've been asking for a plan on what we can safely open, and develop a reasonable plan, SO WE CAN SAVE LIVES. You've literally been saying that there is no cost to the lockdown, and we should just wait indefinately.

Don't you see how a lack of a plan hurts people?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I can understand people who can only afford to shop once a week vs. every two weeks but where is the rationalization for more often than once a week?
> 
> I have a neighbour who is out in his pickup truck every 2 days on average. Where is he going and what for? He's retired, he has money, he sure doesn't need to shop every 2 days. I know he isn't doing any volunteering type thing either. Sometimes he's in and out a couple of times in the same day! 'Oh darn, I forgot to pick up a new toothbrush, better go back out and get one.'
> 
> People are going to the convenience store just to buy lottery tickets. That's a necessary trip?


You seemed very concerned, sounds like you are assuming he is doing some thing wrong. Ask him if it bothers you so much. I don't think he is buying a toothbrush twice a day. Did he tell you that, or are you making assumptions.

Our city, they are totally fine with people going out in the vehicles. There are no know transmissions while in your vehicle.

Here are reasons I am seen leaving with my care (still working full time at home, so I don't have time to go out twice a day).

Groceries
Medical refills, the stupid system only allow one month, and everyone has I different prescription times
Medical appointments - Yes, my kid still had essentially appointments in person she needs to go to
Dropping off/picking up items. I have been using contactless for many items in my community. It took me 3 trips in the same day to get my salad spinner. There was one week I had 20+ different location drops/picks up. If I would have spread it out like I normally, it would have been 2 or 3 outings a day. I did it in two so I could restart my 14 days more quickly, but I can tell you it was a tiring two days
Going for a drive because I just need to go out
One of my vehicles the battery has been starting to just before this. We were going to get the battery swapped but now have to wait. Instead we have to take it out for a 20 min drive EVERY OTHER DAY because the darn thing isn't holding a charge.

Just because you are able to have you life on hold and stay at home, others may be different. You don't know if the person is doing anything dangerous. You said yourself it was okay to go to multiple locations if it is contactless interaction. Maybe your neighbor is doing everything contactless.

You assume everyone is being irresponsible, but don't actually know.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have spent many months living at my friend's house on Hammersmith, 2 blocks fron Queen. Foodland was a preferred destination. Most people dropped in for a few items that they could carry home because parking was such a challenge. I never saw anyone stocking up for a week or two and using a nearby car. Most that were going to drive, went further to a food store with parking.

But everything was within walking distance of Foodland, even a liquor store!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

andrewf said:


> My neighbour leaves just about every day for a little while, sometimes multiple times per day. I see his kids getting into a car (getting picked up) and then returning, sometimes 30 minutes later. I have no idea what they are doing--they didn't come back with food or anything. Some people are just 'busy'. My parents' neighbour shuffles vehicles around his driveway and into his shop all day. He starts vehicles probably 10-20 times a day. Maybe does a bit of work on one truck, then another one, then puts them outside, and back into the shop at the end of the day.


We are definitely one of those families. We have to move our vehicles around because one lose its battery charge if we leave it for more than 2 days. For the kids, we still have essential medical appointments. There have also been a couple of times we have been asked to go to the school to pick up items (like instrument supplies). Sometimes I take my kid in the car just so she can get a change of scenery (but she doesn't come in if it's a public place) My oldest was also volunteering in the beginning for a family that didn't have child care but was considered an essential service. I also was driving my kids to help some people shovel their sidewalks who couldn't during the last recent dump of snow.

Lots of different reason for people to be out. Some are obviously wrong and inappropriate, but there are still many good reasons that people are out. Also, just because you are out, doesn't mean you are not doing it responsibly. I take my kids out and have them practice social distancing, properly hygiene, and mask techniques so I can supervise and teach them.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

andrewf said:


> One thing I noticed with PC is that you can only have one active basket/pickup window at a time, so if the backlog is 2 weeks, you can't use more than one pickup window (unless you use multiple accounts?).


The backlog seems to vary from store to store (even by location). Our Superstore is consistently 13 days out. You cannot create a second shop without cancelling your first. I think the only way around this is two different accounts, but I don't know if they allow you to link the same information. I am just starting to test out the online shopping (put my first order in last week), but I think you can use multiple stores if they are different branches ei. Superstore and No Frills. Our No Frills has more recent spots, but that could be because it was closed for cleaning because there was a confirm case. 

That's the other challenging part of this on line shopping is there are some many uncontrollable factors. There could be lack of availability on items, in which if I was there I would buy something else, but I don't know what the person shopping for me will do. There is also problems if the store shuts down because of staff with COVID. Then you are stuck without your order at all. 

I am looking to mitigate by shopping at two different stores on alternating weeks.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

*PA*: on your posts re this topic.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> I have spent many months living at my friend's house on Hammersmith, 2 blocks fron Queen. Foodland was a preferred destination. Most people dropped in for a few items that they could carry home because parking was such a challenge. I never saw anyone stocking up for a week or two and using a nearby car. Most that were going to drive, went further to a food store with parking.
> 
> But everything was within walking distance of Foodland, even a liquor store!


Are you referring to pre-Covid or currently kcowan? I'm only suggesting an example of how it could be done under the current conditions in probably any neighbourhood of Toronto, as an alternative to the big supermarkets etc.

I lived in the Beach from the mid-70s through the early 90s and saw it go from a neglected area of low cost houses and cheap rents, through 'gentrification' to become an 'in place' to live. If you want to know if someone knows the Beach well, ask them what the Goof is.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Another couple of chicken processors have shut down to due COVID infections. It seems that food processors are becoming "hot spots" for the virus.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

My experience in The Beach is from 5 to 9 years ago. I have no idea how Covid-19'may have impacted life there. My friend sold for $1.8 million and moved to Thornbury then. Lora Bay.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> We are definitely one of those families. We have to move our vehicles around because one lose its battery charge if we leave it for more than 2 days. For the kids, we still have essential medical appointments. There have also been a couple of times we have been asked to go to the school to pick up items (like instrument supplies). Sometimes I take my kid in the car just so she can get a change of scenery (but she doesn't come in if it's a public place) My oldest was also volunteering in the beginning for a family that didn't have child care but was considered an essential service. I also was driving my kids to help some people shovel their sidewalks who couldn't during the last recent dump of snow.
> 
> Lots of different reason for people to be out. Some are obviously wrong and inappropriate, but there are still many good reasons that people are out. Also, just because you are out, doesn't mean you are not doing it responsibly. I take my kids out and have them practice social distancing, properly hygiene, and mask techniques so I can supervise and teach them.


Why don't you just buy a new battery? I know there can be many reasons for someone to be going out and have no problem with that if they are in fact REASONS.

A battery is not one of them. Call your local auto garage and ask them to charge a battery, put it on your credit card and phone you when it is sitting outside their door for you to pick up. Pick it up, bring it home and install it.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Why don't you just buy a new battery? I know there can be many reasons for someone to be going out and have no problem with that if they are in fact REASONS.
> 
> A battery is not one of them. Call your local auto garage and ask them to charge a battery, put it on your credit card and phone you when it is sitting outside their door for you to pick up. Pick it up, bring it home and install it.


I can't be bothered to explain the many reasons why we haven't change out the battery. They are my reasons and I think they are good ones. You are just looking to poke holes. However, I can say me driving around has no or minimal additional risk or exposure to anyone.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> I can't be bothered to explain the many reasons why we haven't change out the battery. They are my reasons and I think they are good ones. You are just looking to poke holes. However, I can say me driving around has no or minimal additional risk or exposure to anyone.


LOL, you have good reasons for not changing a bad battery? Really? Other than you can't afford to buy one, I can think of NO actual REASON to not change a bad battery. Too bad you 'can't be bothered' to tell us what such reasons are, we might learn some 'good' reason to keep a bad battery in our vehicles. Maybe even more than one 'good reason' since you say you have 'many'. 

Does it reduce your risk of getting the virus, like your 94% effective protection from your homemade masks?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> LOL, you have good reasons for not changing a bad battery? Really? Other than you can't afford to buy one, *I can think of NO actual REASON to not change a bad battery. *Too bad you 'can't be bothered' to tell us what such reasons are, we might learn some 'good' reason to keep a bad battery in our vehicles. Maybe even more than one 'good reason' since you say you have 'many'.
> 
> Does it reduce your risk of getting the virus, like your 94% effective protection from your homemade masks?


I am sure my reason are much better than whatever your reasons are for being rude and condescending. You have added any value in your posts. 

I am not surprised that YOU cannot think of reason with narrow myopic views. You can't even fathom reasons why people need to go out and can't selfishly use all the services from home. 

Yep, still making masks, and you never did answer will you wear a mask.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> I am sure my reason are much better than whatever your reasons are for being rude and condescending. You have added any value in your posts.
> 
> I am not surprised that YOU cannot think of reason with narrow myopic views. You can't even fathom reasons why people need to go out and can't selfishly use all the services from home.
> 
> Yep, still making masks, and you never did answer will you wear a mask.


Avoiding seems to be your standard response Plugging Along. If you have 'good reasons' for not changing a bad battery other than not being able to afford one, then state them. Otherwise, you admit you have none by default.

Do you still want to say your homemade masks provide YOU with 94% protection against getting the virus, that was your specific previous statement. Or do you want to avoid that now as well rather than admit it does not protect you.

If I am going out I do not intend to be within 6 feet of anyone at any time at present and so wearing a mask is pointless unless of course you think it protects you against an airborne virus or something, which it of course does not.

I have no problem answering any question you ask Plugging Along but you certainly seem to have a problem answering mine.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

@Longtimeago I have no problems answering question. It is just questions I will not waste my time with because they are useless much like your responses. You haven't been out in weeks and rely on the services and the work of others, yet arm chair preach without actual knowledge. I don't think you have offered anything useful or new in weeks. So no, I don't feel like taking the time to answer your questions because when I have, you just cherry pick what you want and ignore the rest. 

I am sure I am doing much more in slowing transmission than you sitting on your chair. So you can use your lack of imagination to make assumptions on why I will not go get a battery. Hint, has nothing to do with money. I have donated more than the equivalent of multiple car batteries in the last few weeks. 

You can keep you useless assumptions and comments to yourself. We already know you are a broken old record. You can come with theoretic son how everyone can shop for weeks at a time, But it is only that, theoretical.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> @Longtimeago I have no problems answering question. It is just questions I will not waste my time with because they are useless much like your responses. You haven't been out in weeks and rely on the services and the work of others, yet arm chair preach without actual knowledge. I don't think you have offered anything useful or new in weeks. So no, I don't feel like taking the time to answer your questions because when I have, you just cherry pick what you want and ignore the rest.
> 
> I am sure I am doing much more in slowing transmission than you sitting on your chair. So you can use your lack of imagination to make assumptions on why I will not go get a battery. Hint, has nothing to do with money. I have donated more than the equivalent of multiple car batteries in the last few weeks.
> 
> You can keep you useless assumptions and comments to yourself. We already know you are a broken old record. You can come with theoretic son how everyone can shop for weeks at a time, But it is only that, theoretical.


Hilarious, all that just to say you have no answer to why you don't buy a battery.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Hilarious, all that just to say you have no answer to why you don't


Hilarious, you have proven my point. You haven’t learned to read or chosen to comprehend what I write. I have an answer, but posting it for you is useless because you will read only what you want and provide a useless, negative reply.

I choose specially not to give YOU the answer, because it will take a too long to try and explain in ways YOU would be able to read and comprehend. There is no purpose for me to give for you. I find you opinions on this matter useless and quite toxic. 

However if anyone else wants the reason I will gladly PM the reason.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Hilarious, you have proven my point. You haven’t learned to read or chosen to comprehend what I write. I have an answer, but posting it for you is useless because you will read only what you want and provide a useless, negative reply.
> 
> I choose specially not to give YOU the answer, because it will take a too long to try and explain in ways YOU would be able to read and comprehend. There is no purpose for me to give for you. I find you opinions on this matter useless and quite toxic.
> 
> However if anyone else wants the reason I will gladly PM the reason.


My, my, the lengths you will go to to avoid giving an answer to a simple question Plugging Along. Why don't you just fail to respond? That would be easier and more dignified. LOL


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Can finally say that TP is easy to find in my area. Is meat next? And remember, the TP shortage was not created by sick factory workers...it was simply panic buying. Could employee illnesses and panic buying with Meat make the TP shortage look like nothing?









U.S. reels toward meat shortages and the world may be next - BNN Bloomberg


Key operations are also down in Canada, the latest being a British Columbia poultry plant.




www.bnnbloomberg.ca


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> Can finally say that TP is easy to find in my area. Is meat next? And remember, the TP shortage was not created by sick factory workers...it was simply panic buying. Could employee illnesses and panic buying with Meat make the TP shortage look like nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are many products that could and probably will be affected by the virus. Panic buyers will then of course simply exacerbate the problem. Tell the public any item is in short supply and you can be sure there will be a run on it.

This has in fact been a well known marketing technique for a long time. 'Only 1000 will be produced, so get yours while supply lasts'. Never heard a version of that?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> My, my, the lengths you will go to to avoid giving an answer to a simple question Plugging Along. *Why don't you just fail to respond?* That would be easier and more dignified. LOL


My, my, the length you will go to to have the last word Longtimeago. Why don't you fail to respond? Though even if you didn't respond any further, it wouldn't make you less rude, condescending, or less of an insufferable now it all. However, you would waste less space on useless posts. LOL.

I will take the to answer the bold. I choose to respond here as it's faster and still easier than typing my actual reason and serves as a reminder that your posts are repetitive and useless. I wasn't going for dignified so that okay. 

Thanks to a few who reminded me not to feed the trolls, I will go back on topic and be helpful.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Can finally say that TP is easy to find in my area. Is meat next? And remember, the TP shortage was not created by sick factory workers...it was simply panic buying. Could employee illnesses and panic buying with Meat make the TP shortage look like nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think various areas of supply will go through shortages. They will be cause by various aspects related to COVID, some consumer driven (panic buying, change in demand of a product), some supplier side (illnesses, change in requirements, etc).

-TP and related paper goods were first, primarily due to panic buying. That has leveled out now that people who wanted to hoard have several lifetimes worth, and the rest of us can start buying as needed again with the occasional shortage. 
-Hand sanitizer, rubbing alcohol, disinfectant - still is in shortage initially due to hoarding and increase in demand. Since 3rd party sites (amazon, ebay, etc) shut them down, People are just using the items more. I am seeing more hand sanitizer and rubbing alcohol as different suppliers such as breweries have jumped in to the market. Manufacturers have increased production, and there will be a continual adjustment. I think demand is starting to normalize as people stay home, but when they start to open up places again, there will be another shortage.

Yeast & flour - people are just staying home more and demand has increased over 600%. It will go down a bit as people get bored with baking at home and when people head outside more. The yeast manufacturing plant here is running 24 hours a day now, and stopping production on other areas, Robin hood has changed their packaging to increase demand. People have started to make starters at home that are just getting ready to work, so again, this will level out.
Meat - our province 3 processing plants will shut down that supply 75% of the beef in Canada. A few poultry plants and pork plants are having the same issues. They will once again eventually open. People are going to have to get alternative sources of protein. I have already noticed tofu is getting more difficult to find. It's not like we can grow our own meat in cities. Again, buying what is available at the time, I am sure there will be panic buyers, the difference compared to TP is that amount of meat that can be purchased is limited to the freezer and fridge space one has. It will be again interesting what happens on this one. I had already had supplies of canned meats, beans, etc before this, and have been buying more when I see it on sale (not very often).

During these times, people are going to need to be constantly thinking and rethinking about how they obtain their groceries. Things that will help weather the times will be to be flexible in what one buys, buy a little extra if you can on items that you really don't want to do without, be creative to extend out what you need to purchase. This where those who have emergency supplies (like those who have emergency funds) will get through it.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Yeah, sugar is healthy!


 ... ok, ok, ok .. how about subsituting jam with honey? Honey is still sugar-based.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sunlight is rationed here in Ontario. We only get one day of it a week.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... ok, ok, ok .. how about subsituting jam with honey? Honey is still sugar-based.


I think it would be good if you made a home made fruit compote sweetened with a touch of honey. I just did that with some random tart cherries I found in my freezer that I picked a few summers ago. Very little sugar but soooooo good on the brioche bread I just mad.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Yeah, sugar is healthy!


 ... ok, ok, ok .. how about subsituting jam with honey? Honey is still sugar-based. 


Plugging Along said:


> I think it would be good if you made a home made fruit compote sweetened with a touch of honey. I just did that with some random tart cherries I found in my freezer that I picked a few summers ago. Very little sugar but soooooo good on the brioche bread I just mad.


 ... thanks for the suggestion. I may do that (with another fruit) but it's not very economical to make even a batch for a single (or a couple which is dependent if he likes it or not) person.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Sunlight is rationed here in Ontario. We only get one day of it a week.


 ... do you mean natural sunlight? Then that's ain't true as we do get more than one day a week of sunlight in the summer ... anyhow, don't jinx the 1 day a week compared to NFLD. [O/w jargey3k is gonna to come after ya.]


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... ok, ok, ok .. how about subsituting jam with honey? Honey is still sugar-based.
> ... thanks for the suggestion. I may do that (with another fruit) but it's not very economical to make even a batch for a single (or a couple which is dependent if he likes it or not) person.


Not economical, but so delicious, and I could argue healthier. If you were only going to eat PB and Jam, wouldn't you want the best compote. You could also make a small batch, and then freeze them in ice cube trays. I use my compote when I make too much and water down a bit to make a berry 'syrup' for my waffle and pancakes.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> My, my, the length you will go to to have the last word Longtimeago. Why don't you fail to respond? Though even if you didn't respond any further, it wouldn't make you less rude, condescending, or less of an insufferable now it all. However, you would waste less space on useless posts. LOL.
> 
> I will take the to answer the bold. I choose to respond here as it's faster and still easier than typing my actual reason and serves as a reminder that your posts are repetitive and useless. I wasn't going for dignified so that okay.
> 
> Thanks to a few who reminded me not to feed the trolls, I will go back on topic and be helpful.


Know it all has a 'k' at the beginning of the word 'know' Plugging Along. It's a term often used by those who do not know something to refer to someone who does know something. The funny thing is the know nots always seem to think it is somehow derogatory to refer to someone as knowing it all. What it is that actually irks some people about a 'know it all' is that they are right so darn often it's annoying.

Do your masks provide 94% protection to the wearer Plugging Along? I know they don't.

Is there a good reason to not change a bad battery other than being unable to afford to do so? I DON'T know of any. That was your chance to show me something that you DO know Plugging Along.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I will not feed the useless troll.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Sunlight is rationed here in Ontario. We only get one day of it a week.


We got Ontario's ration of sunlight this weekend. Hurrah!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I will not feed the useless troll.


I have trying to avoid engaging as well. Same with lonewolf...


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I have trying to avoid engaging as well. Same with lonewolf...


Usually I am pretty good at not engaging. I don't officially block anyone because it reminds me of the multiple views in the world and how idiotic people can be which helps me in real life. I also use their posts to teach my kids on how not to be and that there are really all kinds of people in the world, as the average IQ is only 100, reality is often more bizarre than fiction. There is something to be learned from all.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> We got Ontario's ration of sunlight this weekend. Hurrah!


Yes, and I am really enjoying it. Sat out front in the sun this morning and out back in the sun this afternoon. Feels good........real good.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

More food chain disruption. This time a pork producing plant in Ontario.









Canada’s meat-and-potato problem: Coronavirus pandemic hits the food supply chain - National | Globalnews.ca


Potato growers are the latest to push for help, asking Ottawa for "urgent required interventions" as demand for french fries has all but disappeared.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

This news was just released yesterday.








Major outbreak among migrant workers at Chatham-Kent greenhouse


Public health officials in Chatham-Kent are working to contain a major COVID-19 outbreak among migrant workers at a greenhouse facility.



windsor.ctvnews.ca





I believe they primarily produce peppers. The owner apparently said there will be a problem with picking and much will go to waste. Much of their product is exported apparently so we may not need to fear being unable to buy peppers. We probably import most while this producer exports. Makes total sense to someone no doubt.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Plugging Along said:


> Usually I am pretty good at not engaging. I don't officially block anyone because it reminds me of the multiple views in the world and how idiotic people can be which helps me in real life. I also use their posts to teach my kids on how not to be and that there are really all kinds of people in the world, as the average IQ is only 100, reality is often more bizarre than fiction. There is something to be learned from all.


Interesting idea. I think mine are a little young to be exposed to the full idiocy of social media. And I'd have to teach them about normal distributions ;-) But I like the idea, at least in theory.

I don't usually block anyone either but I do make an exception on this forum for one person with a signal to noise ratio worse than the advertisements.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

One thing I like about the new software is that it removes any trace of the poster being blocked. Much better than the old software.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> Interesting idea. I think mine are a little young to be exposed to the full idiocy of social media. And I'd have to teach them about normal distributions ;-) But I like the idea, at least in theory.
> 
> I don't usually block anyone either but I do make an exception on this forum for one person with a signal to noise ratio worse than the advertisements.


LOL... having been tested for giftedness, they know a lot about normal distributions and percentiles. Its a little nerdy listening to some of the discussion with their classmates who are all also above the normal distribution. 

I have debated about blocking a couple of people here, but it leads to interesting discussions about censorship, tunnel visions, and bias. We concluded we should at least no completely block someone as there may be something that provokes further though even if the poster is generally useless. 

I have found using forums very helpful in introducing parts of social media. It's good way to carefully expose my kids to general idiocy (of not just social media). Its also very helpful if I time it right, that the kids see that there is a human responding on the other side, and gives them a different perspective. I also like taking posts that show a particular idea I am trying to show my kids so it seems less theoretical for them. It's also shown them that its often futile to reason with some, and to just move on. That's been most helpful in trying to show them signs where the person is just doing it to argue and show they are right.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Update on the real thread: On line groceries

So I did my first click and collect at my No Frills today. I selected the time late last week, so the lead time wasn't too bad (about 5 days), then I was still able to make updates for 2.5 days in advance, in which it closed. 

I received an email this morning saying there were delays and to wait to hear before going. Then I received an email saying there were some substitutions, but no indication on what it was, and the standard form on the same email said there are no substitutions. About 2 hours before my original scheduled pick up time, I received an email saying the order was ready to pick up at any time, and voice mail was left. I called the store for instructions and they said I could come anytime. So they were ahead of time. 

When I arrived at the store, this branch has a strange set up (small store with strange street parking), so I still had to go into the store, but waiting in line to get in. There was only one person in front so less than 5 mins. Then I went to the 'self serve' area. They didn't ask for my id, just helped me look for my name. I found a cart with all the pantry items in plastic bags in the cart already. Then I needed to go to one of the fridges, which it had all of the fridge items together, then finally, the freezer. In each of the 3 sections, it's listed how many bags I had so 1 out 13. I asked for my receipt and the person said it was somewhere, but I couldn't tell where until I unpacked. I wasn't able to cross reference until I unpacked which was a negative. I had my own large bags in the trunk of my car, so transferred organized and sanitized some of the items while putting it in my trunk. 

We I compared the receipt, the items, and order I found the following (YMMV):

almost all items were there, there were a couple areas missing, but this was my test so not the end of the world if it was gone
I intentionally order different combinations of sale items to see what the limits are as the last time I went the store was allow only two per item CATEGORY. So if I wanted 4 cans of pasta sauce of different variety, I could only get two. This time, I order 3 cans of each of the 4 flavors, and I got 5 can of 1, 3 cans of 2, and 1 can of 1. No idea how the figured out what.
In other cases, I order 4 of something and got 2 or 2 different kinds.
What can I say? It was pretty close. I seemed to get the right quantity of items 12 cans of sauce, but the flavours were 'off'. Ordered sour cream and onion chips, got sour cream and cheddar.

My original bill was supposed to be $106, and this bill came to $110. 

My take away is they seemed pretty good for getting the main items, but don't be very picky if they are tad off on order if there are specific varieties.

I will have another update for my part 2 of the order at Superstore this week which is triple the size. So we will see how that one goes.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

This comment is about food delivery but not 'grocery delivery.'

Apparently, restaurants in Toronto (and presumably elsewhere as well) are not happy with Uber Eats. Restaurants offering delivery using them and other services are paying a high percentage to them in commission. In the case of Uber Eats, 30% of what the consumer pays goes to Uber.

While other delivery services like Skip the Dishes and Door Dash have reduced their fees during the current situation, Uber Eats has not. John Tory, Mayor of Toronto, said he phoned the CEO of Uber Eats in person and got no encouragement at all.

Some Toronto restaurants are now boycotting Uber Eats and accepting orders only for the other delivery services and asking their customers to do the same.

Sounds to me like Uber Eats is showing no community spirit at all and deserves to be boycotted. People who are trying to support their local restaurants by ordering meals to be delivered may not be aware of this situation.









Toronto mayor urges food delivery apps to reduce commission amid pandemic


Mayor John Tory is calling on food delivery companies and apps to consider lowering their commissions in order to help restaurants that are already struggling during the COVID-19 pandemic stay afloat.



toronto.ctvnews.ca













Here's how much commission each food delivery app charges Toronto restaurants


Getting food delivered using an app is especially popular right now, but many are wondering if there's a difference in how much commission each app...




www.blogto.com


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ I think eventually it'll (plus those similars) go the permanent way of Foodora:

Delivery App Foodora Is Shutting Down Its Canadian Operation in May [Updated]

Just hope the entire Uber operation goes bust as with Airbnb, Fairbnb, etc.


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## mrbizi (Dec 19, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> This comment is about food delivery but not 'grocery delivery.'
> 
> Apparently, restaurants in Toronto (and presumably elsewhere as well) are not happy with Uber Eats. Restaurants offering delivery using them and other services are paying a high percentage to them in commission. In the case of Uber Eats, 30% of what the consumer pays goes to Uber.
> 
> ...


I’ve found that some restaurants have also either increased the prices of their menu items when ordering thru Doordash/Skip the dishes app, or package and price their menu items differently vs pick-up.

I can’t blame the restaurants, they obviously need to make a profit. Consumers just need to be aware of the premium they are paying (in the two restaurants I’ve ordered from, 20%-50% more), and decide if it’s worth it to them.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It is entirely reasonable to pay more for delivery than pickup food. Consumers are obviously okay with it given the popularity of meal delivery apps (and before that, pizza, etc. delivery). They just need to be lied to about the true cost to feel okay with it in the moment. There is a service charge of 10% or so, and then the actual menu prices are about 20% higher. It's a similar situation as with Instacart for grocery delivery. I saw a news story about a family that was shocked (!) that Instacart was charging higher than in-store prices for a delivery of such essentials as ice cream from shoppers drug mart.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

I haven't bothered to check the grocery delivery time lines recently. I'm still able to walk directly into most grocery stores and the local Costco. I picked up a package of TP on the weekend. The one item on my list that wasn't available was flour.

The LCBO (i.e. liquor) and Beer stores have had lines just about anytime I check.


Non-grocery items have been delivered in a week or less. Only issue is that some web sites that split the order into separate shipments only give the last shipment's tracking number. Other web sites, as I'd expect, give individual tracking links for each shipment.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

mrbizi said:


> ... I can’t blame the restaurants, they obviously need to make a profit. Consumers just need to be aware of the premium they are paying (in the two restaurants I’ve ordered from, 20%-50% more), and decide if it’s worth it to them.


Haven't ordered yet ... but the one I am thinking about had the same menu price before and now. 

IIRC ... my favourite platter might be up $1, where the web site has the same prices as the food delivery service. I'd have to find a pre-covid receipt to be sure of the price increase though. 


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The point regarding restaurant deliveries is NOT that it costs more, it is that Uber Eats is NOT making any effort as a good corporate citizen to minimize how much more it costs the RESTAURANT, while other delivery services ARE reducing their charges.

If part of someone's reason for ordering (besides eating the food) it to help support their local restaurants, then they need to know that Uber Eats is not also trying to help while other delivery services are trying to help. That should guide their choice of which delivery services to use and which to avoid.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, by all means people should switch. Uber has long had questionable business practices--rather fast and loose with ethics.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> The point regarding restaurant deliveries is NOT that it costs more, it is that Uber Eats is NOT making any effort as a good corporate citizen ...


And it triggered the post that I quoted and was responding to.

"When ordering thru Doordash/Skip the dishes app" menu items were priced differently with mention of increases of 20% to 50%. Maybe after I place an order there will be some sort of hidden fee that bumps up the prices but from the menu browsing, restaurant menu browsing and what I recall when calling in orders to pickup myself, the price seems about $1 different. 

That seems substantially cheaper than what was mentioned .... which you seem to be happy to pay as your focus seems to be narrowly on Uber Eats behaviour.




Longtimeago said:


> ... If part of someone's reason for ordering (besides eating the food) it to help support their local restaurants, then they need to know that Uber Eats is not also trying to help while other delivery services are trying to help. That should guide their choice of which delivery services to use and which to avoid.


So if Doordash/Skip the dishes have cut delivery fees where they have prices +20% through +50% more ... doesn't that seem strange to you?

What's your theory for why some restaurants have prices that don't seem to have changed much while mrbizi post indicates a substantial increase plus the drop in delivery fees?


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> And it triggered the post that I quoted and was responding to.
> 
> "When ordering thru Doordash/Skip the dishes app" menu items were priced differently with mention of increases of 20% to 50%. Maybe after I place an order there will be some sort of hidden fee that bumps up the prices but from the menu browsing, restaurant menu browsing and what I recall when calling in orders to pickup myself, the price seems about $1 different.
> 
> ...


I don't use any of them Eclectic12, so no horse in the race. I'm simply reporting what the restaurants are saying about the various delivery services. 

Again, if someone is trying to support their local restaurant by ordering a meal delivered, I think they should know who their restaurant is telling them to use and not use based on the restaurants income ONLY.

I'm not interested in trying to analyze it all, only in reporting which results in the restaurant making more money. Your focus seems to be on which one results in the consumer paying more and/or the delivery service making more.

I understand what you are saying that one delivery service may be charging the consumer more than the other but that is a second transaction. The first transaction is between the restaurant and the delivery service and that is the ONLY transaction I am reporting on.

If Door Dash/Skip the dishes are charging the consumer more, that has NOTHING to do with how much of the total price the consumer pays is going to the restaurant. It is simply a question of whether you are trying to support your local restaurant or not and if you are, which service they are telling you gets them the most money. If that means you have to pay more to a delivery service for them to get more, then that's what it means. 

Personally, I would use a curbside pick up rather than a delivery since it seems that is how the restaurant will make the most money of all and you don't have to get into the dilemma of 'yeah but if I use X delivery service, it costs me more.'


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

This pandemic is exposing the weakness in the assumption that ordering online and home delivery is destined to replace personal retail shopping.

Even those retailers and restaurants employing the best examples of online ordering and delivery are going bankrupt.

The loss of "impulse purchases" is a big loss of sales revenue for retailers.

Stores are laid out purposefully, so you have to travel through the store to get to the basics (milk, eggs, bread).

Those aisles lined with treats, and other products at the cashier checkouts are placed there for a reason.

They are high volume, high margin sales that earn a lot of money for the retailer.

When people shop online for a can opener, they look at a range of can openers and prices. Google conveniently lists them all together to view.

The sale often depends on the lowest price for the best quality. There is no need to travel from store to store checking out the best prices.

That means the retailers are always competing at the lowest prices for every product. Everything they want to sell becomes a "loss leader" item.

I don't think the shift from bricks and mortar stores is as certain and some previously thought it would be.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Again, if someone is trying to support their local restaurant by ordering a meal delivered, I think they should know who their restaurant is telling them to use and not use based on the restaurants income ONLY.
> 
> Personally, I would use a curbside pick up rather than a delivery since it seems that is how the restaurant will make the most money of all and you don't have to get into the dilemma of 'yeah but if I use X delivery service, it costs me more.'


^This. We have been trying to support our local restaurants. I was finally able to do a pick up at a couple of our favorite restaurants. One of them was offering 20% off any pick ups, and regular price with one of the third parties. I called and asked which one they would prefer. They said they still make more giving 20% off than using skip the dish. I went and did a curbside with them. I tipped them the 20% that we saved. 

Another restaurant we frequent, said that I had to come in as their online system wasn't available (they are a very small mom and pop hole in the wall). When I called when I was outside, the owner told me to come on in as there was no one else in the restaurant. We chatted for a little while, he was saying that using any of the 3rd parties would kill him because of the margins. He has been relying on pick up only. 

Right now, the best way to support the local restaurants is to call them directly and ask them which method they would prefer. In many cased it may mean a curbside or pick up, but it helps that much more. In both cases our orders were over $100, so I would rather have the restaurant get that in these times than a big 3 party.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Stores are laid out purposefully, so you have to travel through the store to get to the basics (milk, eggs, bread).
> 
> Those aisles lined with treats, and other products at the cashier checkouts are placed there for a reason.
> 
> They are high volume, high margin sales that earn a lot of money for the retailer.


Most stores are laid out so if you shop on the outside perimeter you will go past the staples. For example in Superstore walk in and go right to get to the fruit and veggies, then along the back wall for meat and cheese, then up the left wall for dairy and then towards the checkout which goes past the bakery items.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Coming to you soon? 



https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/grocery-truck-future-buckner-1.5557710


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Went to Costco yesterday. 10 minute line outside BUT no line at the cash.

Got everything on my list included frozen corn. Lots of meats, fruits, veg. and everything else. No reason to hoard.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

We went to Costco today, 5 minute lineup to get in. The normal sale items were on sale and there was plenty of meat, fruit, and veggies. They even had toilet paper.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> We went to Costco today, 5 minute lineup to get in. The normal sale items were on sale and there was plenty of meat, fruit, and veggies. They even had toilet paper.


I went to Home Hardware and the local lumberyard
~5 min wait at Home Hardware, no wait at the lumberyard. 

I'm glad they're opening up and easing the restrictions. The less impactful, the more likely we'll have compliance.

Unfortunately, we're going to get another spike, if my neighbourhood is any indication, a LOT of people are doing mothersday visits.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> I went to Home Hardware and the local lumberyard
> ~5 min wait at Home Hardware, no wait at the lumberyard.
> 
> I'm glad they're opening up and easing the restrictions. The less impactful, the more likely we'll have compliance.
> ...


Home Depot had a lineup yesterday (they opened at 9:00) but we got in as soon as the doors opened. I wanted to buy some PT lumber for a deck build but there were already 4 people waiting at the stack I needed so we just got the other things we needed and left.

We went to Superstore right after HD and there was no lineup to get in and no line at the till.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Home Depot had a lineup yesterday (they opened at 9:00) but we got in as soon as the doors opened. I wanted to buy some PT lumber for a deck build but there were already 4 people waiting at the stack I needed so we just got the other things we needed and left.
> 
> We went to Superstore right after HD and there was no lineup to get in and no line at the till.


I think people, at least in this area, feel the store restrictions aren't too onerous, and they're complying.

But we'll see about mothers day, it looks like neighbourhood social interactions are climbing dramatically.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> We went to Costco today, 5 minute lineup to get in. The normal sale items were on sale and there was plenty of meat, fruit, and veggies. They even had toilet paper.


Went yesterday .... walked straight in at about 3pm.

List of what wasn't available was about three things with lysol wipes and gloves sticking in my mind.

There was a whole aisle of pallets of paper products (ex. TP, paper towels etc.). There were two pallets of flour, one a 10 kg bag and the other a 20 kg bag from a vendor I didn't recognise. It's the first time in three trips that I've seen flour (wasn't looking for it prior to that).

*Edit:*
I'm not baking a lot so the first couple of trips to Costco or grocery stores, I wasn't paying attention to flour availability. I had a neighbour request I pickup some so that why on the last three trips I have been on the lookout.


Cheers


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> There were two pallets of flour, one a 10 kg bag and the other a 20 kg bag from a vendor I didn't recognise. It's the first time in three trips that I've seen flour (wasn't looking for it prior to that).


Our local supermarket still delivers. We email order in. For weeks, we have had flour on list, but it has not been available. Then last week, they delivered a 10kg bag! Not knowing this, one of my family found some in Toronto and has shipped it to us. We will soon have way more flour than we can use. Thinking about Papier Mache crafts


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Went yesterday .... walked straight in at about 3pm.
> 
> List of what wasn't available was about three things with lysol wipes and gloves sticking in my mind.
> 
> ...


Ours would sold out on the 10Kg, but still had the 20kg. I heard that some flour manufacturers have gone to a more 'generic' packaging in order to keep up with demand. Apparently they could get the product out but the packaging was causing the issue. 

I keep pretty tight tabs on what's available or short in demand in my area:
Constant shortages (if you think you need it in the month or so, but if you see it):

Yeast, Lysol wipes, gloves, rubbing alcohol, and hand sanitizer
Hair clippers

Limited quantities (you will probably find it but it may require a few trips to find it or you have to substitute):

Flour - they generally have it, but the type or size may be not exactly what you are looking for
Meat - certain cuts of beef, pork, and chicken are not available, but you generally can find that meat, just not in the format you want. Also, prices have gone up about 20% over the last couple of weeks that are not due to seasonal changes
Powdered milk - no idea why this is so hard to find, if they are making less of it, or people keep buying it.

Good news that TP, paper products, bidets, hand soap, and almost all other food products seem back to normal. 
Right now, we are trying to buy items that there seems to be a surplus to do our part in helping farmers. The big on is potatoes. We are having potato week. For the first time that I can remember, I found Kennebec potatoes at Costco. These are usually supplied to restaurants and food manufacturers (mccains) and are considered more 'specialty' in my area. I used to order them from a farmer in my area to make our fish and chips. I was so happy to find them now, but most people would just think they are a regular white potato. That's our goal is to try and help sustain our farmers the best we can.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Our local supermarket still delivers. We email order in. For weeks, we have had flour on list, but it has not been available. Then last week, they delivered a 10kg bag! Not knowing this, one of my family found some in Toronto and has shipped it to us. We will soon have way more flour than we can use. Thinking about Papier Mache crafts


You could make sour dough starter, you have to keep feeding that thing, but it will use up the flour a little faster.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Just another update from my adventures. I think I have figured out my 'system' for shopping. I am on a tri-weekly cycle where I do most of my outings in one week, then try to got contactless for everyone for two in order to safely help my elderly parents.

Went to Costco last week. There was less of a line up after work. It seems that the biggest line ups are on weekends and first thing in the morning. Ironically, during the seniors hours. I would say only go then if you are waiting for one of the hard to find items. However, last thing before closing, it seems the store is working hard to restock. I already commented about availability of items in an above post.

On line ordering seems to have caught up to demand better. I am not sure if it's because they have more people doing it or they getting faster, or because more people are going out. Instead of 13 days out or no spots at all. I can easier find spots. For my smaller store, spots are still available for the next day, and for Superstore about 5-7 days out, not including weekends. This is making it a lot easier for me to plan out my cycles. I keep an on-line cart up to date for both stores starting with my base grocery list, and update as I am going along. I set my order for Monday or Tuesday so I can have time to change any of the flyer items in time. I am getting very good at specifying what kind substitutions are okay. 

Now that I can still shop the flyers, I am not paying the 30% premium on regular food items which is closer to my grocery shopping habits. Meat and produce is still a little hit and miss in terms of quality, but even when this is over I may permanently use online shopping for my orders. It saves me almost 2 hours each major trip. 

Too bad the Canadian Tire isn't the same. They were almost 1200 order behind last week.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

What do Canadian Tire sell that everyone wants ?

The next $2000 per person CERB goes out this week, so it will probably get busy again.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> You could make sour dough starter, you have to keep feeding that thing, but it will use up the flour a little faster.


I will pass that suggestion on to the appropriate department


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

sags said:


> What do Canadian Tire sell that everyone wants ?


With time on their hands, people probably shop on-line instead of going into the store. CT is always busy, so even if on-line was only 10%, their system might get overloaded. I had quite a hassle getting them to transfer my CT reards account to the new Triangle rewards. Still can't log in, but rewards do work in store. 

I had same problem with Shoppers and eventually gave up. Usually go to Guardian anyway.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

what major pharmacies deliver to home? I bypassed the line today at walmart for a prescription pickup. They are supposed to bring it out to you but their machine was broken. 

I was surrounded by a bunch of “close-walkers”.....not to be confused with “close-talkers”.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't like those close walkers. They know they are bugging you but they drift closer and closer. Should carry bear spray.......


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

sags said:


> I don't like those close walkers. They know they are bugging you but they drift closer and closer. Should carry bear spray.......


the guy behind me coughed into his hand....I know we’re all learning, but I really don’t like going out. My wife has done all the shopping......I just feel unease.....like at any moment the store will turn into the grocery/pharmacy scene in “war of the worlds” with Tom cruise.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I watched the news and the kids going into the school in Quebec. Only 28 kids out of almost 200 showed up.

A dad walks up with his kid. He isn't wearing a mask. He walks the kid right up to the door.

And now we have our own Premier Doug Ford having 6 members of his family over for dinner on the weekend.

And they are issuing fines to people for playing basketball ?

The question was put to the Chief Medical Officer. He stumbled through a reply that he had his own family visit......but they stood on the lawn.

Sure they did.......in the cold and wet.

Point is that people don't take it seriously until it affects them. I can see a second wave bigger than the first one coming.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> I don't like those close walkers. They know they are bugging you but they drift closer and closer. Should carry bear spray.......


Bear spray would cause them to tear, sneeze and likely cough ... not a good idea is it?

Maybe carry a supersoaker filled with purell?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

My superstore is now offering Thu pickups (3 days out). Loblaws has a slot for late tonight otherwise tomorrow afternoon. Impressed that they are catching up. Or maybe people are becoming less concerned and are doing more of their own shopping.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Ours would sold out on the 10Kg, but still had the 20kg ...


The 10 Kg pallet had about three rows while the 20 Kg pallet had about seven rows full.




Plugging Along said:


> ... I heard that some flour manufacturers have gone to a more 'generic' packaging in order to keep up with demand. Apparently they could get the product out but the packaging was causing the issue ...


In this case, the bag was not generic - instead of "Robin Hood" it was a different brand.

I heard that packing was the issue as well. These ones were the usual paper bag.


Cheers


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My wife told me they had a staff meeting at the retirement home today.

Management is concerned that all the precautions they take will be useless if restrictions are relaxed and their employees get sick and infect the home.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> what major pharmacies deliver to home?


I'm sure I've seen home delivery advertised in Shoppers 
Drug Mart. This article says over the counter only via InstaCart. Shoppers Drug Mart launches home delivery | Canadian Grocer

Rexall seems to have setup a separate web site. Though the new one built has a drive through pickup window.




__





Home Page | Rexall Direct







www.rexalldirect.ca





Costco pharmacy delivers as well.


https://www.costco.ca/pharmacy-services.html




Cheers


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Eclectic12 said:


> The 10 Kg pallet had about three rows while the 20 Kg pallet had about seven rows full.
> 
> 
> In this case, the bag was not generic - instead of "Robin Hood" it was a different brand.
> ...


Robin Hood ran out of bags. They had plenty of flour. Apparently stores in Western Canada are getting the more generic white bag instead of the iconic yellow w/ an image of Robin Hood. Been to Costo twice in the last four weeks. They had plenty of 10kg bags on the usual shelving an on pallets placed at the end bunks each time. Our friend's daugher works for Cargill-Horizon in the US (they own Robin Hood). They have the same issue in the US with some of their flour brands. Lots of product....shortage of bags because of increased demand.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

andrewf said:


> My superstore is now offering Thu pickups (3 days out). Loblaws has a slot for late tonight otherwise tomorrow afternoon. Impressed that they are catching up. Or maybe people are becoming less concerned and are doing more of their own shopping.


I think this is definitely the case. We don’t go out much. Just for groceries, medication and some curb-side pick up. Ventured into Home Depot today for some mulch. We thought we could remain outdoors and pick up and pay directly from the outdoor garden centre. They made us go inside, pay, then return to the outdoor garden centre for pick up. Way to go HD!
in any event, it was my first time in a store without a mask or gloves.

Neighbours I talk to on walks say they’ve had enough. They’ll take their chances going out vs delivery and curb side.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

agent99 said:


> I will pass that suggestion on to the appropriate department


Fair enough, I didn't do it because I just don't have it in me to feed and take care of something else.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> What do Canadian Tire sell that everyone wants ?
> 
> The next $2000 per person CERB goes out this week, so it will probably get busy again.


In our area, everyone was trying to get all of the stuff for their gardens, home repairs, outdoor equipment. We waited as long as we could, but had a large list of house items that I have needed replacement since this started.




sags said:


> I don't like those close walkers. They know they are bugging you but they drift closer and closer. Should carry bear spray.......


Bear spray is a bad idea. In my city, if released in a store, it's considered a weapon. I have a hockey stick in my car. I told the guys who were right on my @$$ that 6 feet is a length of a hockey stick, and I could get mine to show them. I couldn't bring it in the store though. I have debated bringing in a retractable Light Sabre. I have a pretty cool one but it doesn't retract so is hard to bring shopping. 

Close walkers really bother me, well, anyone who doesn't give me my proper social distance. I do say something (usually quite politely) that they are in my space. Most just aren't aware of their actions.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> The 10 Kg pallet had about three rows while the 20 Kg pallet had about seven rows full.
> 
> 
> In this case, the bag was not generic - instead of "Robin Hood" it was a different brand.
> ...


Costco normally doesn't sell Robin hood, but I didn't notice that it was different bag than normal. I didn't have room for the 20 kg, so didn't get it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Costco flour in Calgary is, I believe, a local product from Alberta. Never seen the national brands. DW likes it because it is locally milled, bagged, etc.


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## alexincash (May 27, 2020)

I'm sure you'd get much better delivery times if you can find smaller-scale local delivery companies that are still seeking customers. Big grocery delivery companies are likely backed up with orders for a while


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

From what I can tell, the big grocers near me are back to same day/next day service.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I ordered Chinese food from a friend who owns the restaurant.

When I went to her website, it took me directly to a third party delivery service, with a menu and prices.

I called her on the phone and made my order. When I picked it up I asked her why her website directed to the delivery app.

She said that is the way they had to do it, because they couldn't find any drivers. They have cut hours because they can't find kitchen help.

She told me the delivery app charges her 15% of every order plus jack up the menu prices by 10%. She gets nothing......just pays.

So if I hadn't called and ordered online our $60 order would have cost $69 plus a $5 delivery charge (plus any tip you want to give).

The restaurant would have received $51 from me paying $74 plus any tip. What a ripoff........but she says it is all she can do to stay open.

While I was standing there........3 online orders came in. She says that is pretty much all they get now.

I looked online for "delivery jobs" and where they were usually maybe a dozen jobs posted, there are now hundreds.

Crazy the way everything has turned upside down. Low paid workers are now the most sought after......drivers, nursing homes etc.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

The other day I drove by a No Frills. Long line up stretching down one side of parking lot before turning to store entrance. Good social distancing being practiced. Just wondered how long it would have taken me to get into store if I had joined the Queue. We are still getting free next day delivery from our smaller grocer so line-ups not an issue for us yet.
Same thing with Home Depot. LLLong Line-ups. Not doing that. On-line it took 3 days before we got the email for pickup. Instead, we have been calling order to small town Home Hardware near us. They check stock and if they have what we need, we pick up same day at any time. Otherwise they order in and we pick up in 3-7 days.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We have ordered some things online and got a delivery date and nothing shows up. Days later it gets left on the porch.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> I ordered Chinese food from a friend who owns the restaurant.
> 
> When I went to her website, it took me directly to a third party delivery service, with a menu and prices.
> 
> ...


Definitely call the restaurant or store directly. The amount the 3rd parties are charging is very high. I have found most of my favorite restaurants are small mom & pop shops and they don't have drivers. I don't like going into the restaurant, but am willing to drive there. I have had them do curbside for me. 

Side comment for the on-line groceries - a lot of the big box grocery chains now have same day pick up. Unfortunately, as more stores are opening up, they are no longer offering curbside. so I have run inside.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

sags said:


> I ordered Chinese food from a friend who owns the restaurant.
> 
> When I went to her website, it took me directly to a third party delivery service, with a menu and prices.
> 
> ...


Why is that a rip off? Do you not assign a cost to delivery. Wages for delivery people have increased. How do you expect someone to operate a delivery service without covering their costs? And you do have a choice...which you made and saved yourself some money.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

ian said:


> Why is that a rip off? Do you not assign a cost to delivery. Wages for delivery people have increased. How do you expect someone to operate a delivery service without covering their costs? And you do have a choice...which you made and saved yourself some money.


I think the point is that they are charging a lot for it. The drivers don't seem to get it. I think a lot of it is to fund customer acquisition (incentives to join the service), which is why despite high fees, Uber is still hemorrhaging cash. Kind of a Ponzi scheme, really, but funded by VC capital and restaurants subsidizing it as a defensive measure.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If the situation remains for a long time, the restaurants will probably raise their prices to pay the cost and then all customers get to share the cost together.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

People have a choice. Both the business and the customers. I have no idea if the amount is reasonable nor do I know the cost of running a business like that. 

The customer has four choices. Pick it up themselves. Use their delivery service. Prepay and have the order sent over in a cab/pay the cab fare on arrival. Or simply decide not to order. I do not see why it could be described as similar to a ponzi scheme. BTW, some restaurants in the US are already adding a percentage add on to bill, tagged as a covid fee, for those who dine in. No idea if it any are doing the same to pickup or delivery.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Why is that a rip off? Do you not assign a cost to delivery. Wages for delivery people have increased. How do you expect someone to operate a delivery service without covering their costs? And you do have a choice...which you made and saved yourself some money.


The issue ian is not that a delivery service makes some money for making the delivery, it is how MUCH they are making compared to the restaurant. There is no question that some delivery services have jacked up the prices to the consumer because of Covid.

Some people who used home delivery of restaurant meals before Covid have been complaining that prices have been jacked up but they are wrongly blaming the restaurants rather than the delivery companies. Its as sags wrote, "_She told me the delivery app charges her 15% of every order plus jack up the menu prices by 10%. She gets nothing......just pays."_ That increase in menu price is blamed on the restaurants when in fact they do not control those menu prices.

It also seems to be a fact that it is not the DRIVER that is being paid more, it is the delivery company who is making more.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Either way, both parties have a choice. If the fee is too steep for either, then decline. Eventually some other offer will come into the market on both sides of the equation.

When we order pizza we pick it up. The surcharges and delivery cost is too high for us relative to the price of the order and it is not inconvenient for us to do so. My point is that we made the choice. If we could not pick it up then we would have to weigh the merits of getting it delivered. Not as though it is a necessity.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

ian said:


> Either way, both parties have a choice. If the fee is too steep, hidden or seperate, for either, then decline. Eventually some other offer will come into the market on both sides of the equation. When we order pizza we pick it up. The surcharges and delivery cost is too high for us relative to the price of the order. My point is that I made the choice.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It could become like CC charges. People not using the delivery service end up cross-subsidizing the people who do.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> It could become like CC charges. People not using the delivery service end up cross-subsidizing the people who do.


Yes I think so andrewf. The restaurant has to increase their price to cover what they have to pay the delivery company. They can't have one price with delivery and one without even though I am sure that is what a lot of people think happens. 

It's like 'Customer Loyalty Programs'. If you buy from us you get 'points' or 'air miles', etc. In fact, the cost to the company of those programs is included in the selling price of every item. So those customers who do not join their loyalty programs then in fact subsidize those who do since they pay the inflated price just as those who join the programs do. I wish they would make all those loyalty programs illegal. 

The only way to avoid this same kind of scenario is if the delivery companies charged the restaurant ZERO and only the consumer paid for the delivery but that is not how they operate, they charge both the consumer and the restaurant.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> It could become like CC charges. People not using the delivery service end up cross-subsidizing the people who do.


How so?
Handling cash is really expensive.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Debit?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Debit?


Some people do that, personally I don't think it's worth the risk.

Credit you can dispute.

Someone steals your debit info... good luck.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree. Debit users are paying for the protection CC card users enjoy (built into the interchange fee charged to the merchant). Debit users could 'self insure' by getting a 3% discount on purchases if that was allowed.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

All these "food-delivery" services (UberEats, SkipTheDishes, DoorDash, etc.) sound like a lose-lose situation to me ... the restaurant loses, the delivery guy (self-employee?) loses. Maybe only the app company wins but even then based on this article, they lose too if they're not able to cover "their operating costs" such as ? IPO cost? CEO salary, 1 CSR and 1 tech guy in the IT department? ????

Also, why should a restaurant be charged anything (even it's lower than the retail cost) if it uses its own personnel/vehicle for delivery? Make no sense other than a royalty-fee for the privilege of use an app? What about ordering direct from its online website. 

Canada's restaurant owners want caps on food delivery app fees after pandemic ends
*



Canada's restaurant owners want caps on food delivery app fees after pandemic ends

Click to expand...

*


> Tara Deschamps, The Canadian Press
> Published Sunday, June 13, 2021 12:40PM EDT
> 
> _TORONTO -- Restaurant owners say food delivery apps have taken too big a bite out of their revenues for too long.
> ...


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> All these "food-delivery" services (UberEats, SkipTheDishes, DoorDash, etc.) sound like a lose-lose situation to me ... the restaurant loses, the delivery guy (self-employee?) loses. Maybe only the app company wins but even then based on this article, they lose too if they're not able to cover "their operating costs" such as ? IPO cost? CEO salary, 1 CSR and 1 tech guy in the IT department? ????
> 
> Also, why should a restaurant be charged anything (even it's lower than the retail cost) if it uses its own personnel/vehicle for delivery? Make no sense other than a royalty-fee for the privilege of use an app? What about ordering direct from its online website.
> 
> Canada's restaurant owners want caps on food delivery app fees after pandemic ends


They can choose to participate or not.

It does seem like for some businesses these options aren't a good idea.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ You're right businesses can choose to participate or not. But you're incorrect that for "some" businesses these options aren't a good idea. We're talking about an entire Eatery sector here and that's not "some" businesses. As said, it's lose-lose for 2 ends of that sector - the business and the employee. The intermediary seems to be the only winner in this business model. Not sure about the lazy customer even.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

My friend's 40 something child makes over $30 an hour inc. tips, on average doing these deliveries. Its a second income for their family. They get to pick their hours and work around child care.
They say the worst, cheapest tippers live in Vancouvers westside where houses go for 4m plus.
I agree its brutal for the restaurants, but the delivery people, not so much.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ You're right businesses can choose to participate or not. But you're incorrect that for "some" businesses these options aren't a good idea. We're talking about an entire Eatery sector here and that's not "some" businesses. As said, it's lose-lose for 2 ends of that sector - the business and the employee. The intermediary seems to be the only winner in this business model. Not sure about the lazy customer even.


Please support your claim that this is bad for the entire eatery sector.
I think it is quite possible it's bad for some businesses, they're complaining about, and I'll take them at their word.

There are also some businesses that seem to be okay using these services. 
Unfortunately the government has already stepped in to interfere.




__





Ontario Newsroom







news.ontario.ca





Personally if someone wants to charge $15 to deliver a meal, I think that's just fine, and it's up to the customer to decide if it's worth it.

This is just more overregulation.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Please support your claim that this is bad for the entire eatery sector.
> I think it is quite possible it's bad for some businesses, they're complaining about, and I'll take them at their word.
> 
> There are also some businesses that seem to be okay using these services.
> ...


 ... please define what you mean by "some" businesses that this business model is good for before I further explain why this is bad for the entire eatery sector. And please don't insist that I "support my claim"... I'm not a statistician or journalist.

And with your opinion that "you're fine if someone wants to charge $15 to deliver a meal, and it's up to the customer to decide if it's worth it " ... that's the problem ... who in their right mind wants to pay $15 for delivery fees, especially it's a smaller meal. Maybe the same number as the digits in one of my hand? Or that the customer lives up in the Yukon. But then the delivery fee ain't gonna be $15 cheap.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... please define what you mean by "some" businesses that this business model is good for before I further explain why this is bad for the entire eatery sector. And please don't insist that I "support my claim"... I'm not a statistician or journalist.
> 
> And with your opinion that "you're fine if someone wants to charge $15 to deliver a meal, and it's up to the customer to decide if it's worth it " ... that's the problem ... who in their right mind wants to pay $15 for delivery fees, especially it's a smaller meal. Maybe the same number as the digits in one of my hand? Or that the customer lives up in the Yukon. But then the delivery fee ain't gonna be $15 cheap.


What I mean by "some" is that in some cases it's a good fit for the business, and in some cases it is not a good fit for the business.

Pizza delivery seems quite popular, so I'd suggest delivery services are quite appropriate for them. In smaller centers many businesses may join together to have a shared delivery service.

Also I don't see how a service like FromTo hurts anyone.
The restaurant pays no fee, and the customer pays for the delivery. 

Also many other places (Swiss chalet, subway etc) have often offered delivery services for decades in some locations. I've even personally ordered other food and had it delivered by taxi when no delivery service was available. 
Why would I pay $15 for delivery? I was stuck at a location and wanted to eat something, so I used a delivery service. 
Also a delivery service, even at $15, is cheaper than taking a taxi/uber round trip.


You claimed that delivery services are bad for the entire eatery sector, but have offered no justification why.

Just to be clear, I don't dispute that some delivery services don't make sense in some cases. I actually claimed that these services don't make sense in some cases, you disagreed with that as well.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> What I mean by "some" is that in some cases it's a good fit for the business, and in some cases it is not a good fit for the business.
> 
> Pizza delivery seems quite popular, so I'd suggest delivery services are quite appropriate for them. In smaller centers many businesses may join together to have a shared delivery service.
> 
> ...


 ... that (bolded) part is explained in the article so need for me to repeat it here. Sure the customer will pay for whatever demanded delivery fee when he/she is willingly/desperate. But is it sustainable? For the eatery? 

Maybe this works for the high-ends but doubt the customer will repeatedly order delivered-food from a low-end one. And most eateries are low-end ones. And that entire sector is so saturated (in TO, not sure about London though) that it's just a matter of time before this UberEats fad goes away. You do realize that businesses work in cycles too?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... that (bolded) part is explained in the article so need for me to repeat it here. Sure the customer will pay for whatever demanded delivery fee when he/she is willingly/desperate. But is it sustainable? For the eatery?
> 
> Maybe this works for the high-ends but doubt the customer will repeatedly order delivered-food from a low-end one. And most eateries are low-end ones. And that entire sector is so saturated (in TO, not sure about London though) that it's just a matter of time before this UberEats fad goes away. You do realize that businesses work in cycles too?


No the bolded part isn't explained in the article, which is my point.
I understand that some businesses are using services that don't make sense for them. 

But I don't get why it's bad for the ENTIRE sector. That is never explained. 
The article doesn't explain how delivery dependent restaurants and delivery services have existed for decades without major issues.

The real problem is some businesses are making bad decisions. 
if you can't afford a 30% commission, don't agree to pay a 30% commission.

It's just like when someone offered me a 50% pay raise to move to Toronto, I did the numbers, didn't make sense, I turned down the offer.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> All these "food-delivery" services (UberEats, SkipTheDishes, DoorDash, etc.) sound like a lose-lose situation to me ... the restaurant loses, the delivery guy (self-employee?) loses. Maybe only the app company wins but even then based on this article, they lose too if they're not able to cover "their operating costs" such as ? IPO cost? CEO salary, 1 CSR and 1 tech guy in the IT department? ????
> 
> *Also, why should a restaurant be charged anything (even it's lower than the retail cost) if it uses its own personnel/vehicle for delivery? Make no sense other than a royalty-fee for the privilege of use an app? What about ordering direct from its online website.*
> 
> Canada's restaurant owners want caps on food delivery app fees after pandemic ends




When you think of the what service is the delivery service offering, it's not just an app or delivery. They provide the following:

Advertising/Marketing: They have a much more successful reach in the people that purchase. People who use the app are in the market for food and are specifically looking the company. Think about how much business used to spend for advertising on flyers, and now social media. Here you are getting someone who is already ready to make a purchase and now is just decided where. That's where the fee comes in even if they are using their own delivery
On Line ordering; Not all companies especially small ones can do this well. This comes from having a website and an app with your menu, creating on line shopping cart, credit card processing, ect. Do you know how much work this is? ALOT
Delivery logistics: for small restaurants to have their own drivers, it's a pain. My dad had a restaurant, their driver was one of the staff that wasn't busy, or a person who lived close to the area. Unless a restaurant has a clear idea of their delivery needs, it's another part of the business.



Beaver101 said:


> ^ You're right businesses can choose to participate or not. But you're incorrect that for "some" businesses these options aren't a good idea. We're talking about an entire Eatery sector here and that's not "some" businesses. As said, it's lose-lose for 2 ends of that sector - the business and the employee. The intermediary seems to be the only winner in this business model. Not sure about the lazy customer even.


Each business needs to decide on their own. We are friends with the owners of some of our favorite restaurants. It really depends if the restaurant can figure out their own on line logistics or not, along with if they need the little boost in advertising. One of the owners, puts their restaurants (they have opened many in the City) on the sites and pays the high fees when they are first getting started. As their business increases to their own platform, they usually drop the service. 

I often find the menus on the skip or uber when the restaurant doesn't have a good on line presence. I will call the restaurant and try to order on their own site or over the phone. There are some restaurants that can't even do this welll and they send me to skip or what ever platform. 

There are many reason why some restaurants need the service. So it's a service to the restaurant, customer, the delivery driver, and of course the 3 party. All of them can benefit if they know how to use the systems. 



Beaver101 said:


> And with your opinion that "you're fine if someone wants to charge $15 to deliver a meal, and it's up to the customer to decide if it's worth it " ... that's the problem ... who in their right mind wants to pay $15 for delivery fees, especially it's a smaller meal. Maybe the same number as the digits in one of my hand? Or that the customer lives up in the Yukon. But then the delivery fee ain't gonna be $15 cheap.


I don't quite understand how so many people will pay such as premium for these services but they do. I saw someone pay $12 delivery for a $8 liter of ice cream. I have been trying to figure out who uses these services. There are a lot. -- There are those that don't drive or have vehicles. or unable to drive at the moment. 

I have seen many use them when they are really busy, it's become popular to send an Uber gift card when people find out some one is in the hospital, births, deaths, or some major event. I always bring precooked meals in times of need for friends and family, apparently a delivery service gift card works well, when the weather is (he people that use these services are those that do not have vehicles/drive.
I didn't realize that parents now just load money on their kids app accounts and tell them to order something when the parents aren't home to cook. I personally make my kids cook for themselves. My kids begged me to let them order someone off one of the places, because they were missing on the experience. We did once (we had a promo code so it was cheaper than pick up), and we still don't get it.
At gatherings, it's also popular for people to order for MULTIPLE place (and fees), so they can keep everyone happy. I used to just potluck or cook, but this is popular for younger people.
Travellers - we have used the services when we are travelling and dont know the city or area. It's all in one place, and I don't have to go hunting for food. 

I don't think it's going to go away at any time.


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