# Townhouses... pros/cons?



## bpcrally (Sep 12, 2010)

So my wife and I are in the market for a house in Ontario (north of GTA). We've saved diligently and have a 20% downpayment.

We started out by saying detached only.. I rented a room in a townhouse years ago and there was often noise between the units. Plus the shared driveway sort of turned me off.

Now that we're a couple months into hunting, its become very clear that we can either:
- Come in under budget/at budget and get a townhouse of medium/large size, with upgrades, newer etc. 
- Go in at budget/over budget and get a full detached - Small/medium size, usually slightly older homes and usually a little dated/worn inside.

In an ideal world, we'd strongly consider an end unit town house as i'm concerned about noise between the units, plus I like the idea of being able to access my back yard from the side of the house. This raises another concern, how do you get a lawnmower between your from and rear yard?

We talked to our agent, and he was saying with newer townhouses the sound between them is much better, and I've come to notice that newer ones look almost staggered, with the bedroom having little to no contact to the neighbors house. We plan on starting a family in this home, so I don't want to hear the neighbors and I don't want the neighbors to hear us (ie dog barking/baby crying!)

Just wondering what peoples thoughts/experiences are with a townhouse. With the market as aggressive as it is, we might end up with a middle unit which is something I thought i'd never do. But now that we've gone and seen both scenarios, townhouses are tough to ignore. 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I currently live in a semi-detached house and let me tell you, there are noises through the wall and when they smoke, it comes through the wall too. Extremely annoying. Maybe more modern ones are better (this is an older house) but it's been my experience that modern builders tend to cut corners as much as they can in "unseen" areas and save the money for the flashy things that will attract buyers. 

I would only consider a townhouse if it was one of those that's separated by the garage, or if at least most of the living area is separated by the garage. 

Speaking of garages, is it possible that the garage runs the full depth of the townhouse, so you'd get the lawnmower back and forth by using the back/front doors of the garage? Definitely something to think about when looking at specific units.


----------



## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Always always own and control your own land and dwelling. Townhouses and condos dont fit that bill. 

But if you have to own one, makes sure the sucker is concrete top to bottom, try for an end unit or sometimes there are concrete walls near the stair wells that can buffer the noise as well


----------



## bpcrally (Sep 12, 2010)

tygrus said:


> Always always own and control your own land and dwelling. Townhouses and condos dont fit that bill.
> 
> But if you have to own one, makes sure the sucker is concrete top to bottom, try for an end unit or sometimes there are concrete walls near the stair wells that can buffer the noise as well


Thanks for the replies. Yeah we would only do a freehold for sure. And never condos.


----------



## Prospector (Jul 25, 2014)

I'm not sure your reasons for North GTA, but the east end (Durham) has lower prices and the Lakeshore line runs every 30 minutes into downtown. If you work North of the city or have family there, please ignore this.

I have never lived in row housing. I have had a link home though. There was nothing unpleasant about the experience and I had no issues with noise. Our garages were connected by a 4ft long bumpout between the houses where HVAC flues ran to the roof. The biggest issue was what to do with the 2ft wide strip between the houses which each of us owned 1 ft of. The neighbour used it as an ashtray. I just steered clear. Noise wasn't a problem, smell wasn't an issue. 

Another option is to lower your expectations and go slummin'. After a divorce, I bought literally the cheapest listing in town and got a depression era house of 450 sf. To this day, that was my favourite house ever. I should have never sold it. Quirky as hell, rotting floorboards and 30 AMP hydro, but an awesome place to live. Sadly I could never convince my current wife to live in a place like that.


----------



## bpcrally (Sep 12, 2010)

This input is great. Yeah we're on the fence on how we want to tackle this whole situation. As for why we're looking north, I work in North Markham, and my wife works near newmarket. We used to rent a place in Oshawa years ago and the commute from there was hell (basically sit on the 401 forever, or bend over and take the 407). We're now renting north of newmarket and the drive is about the same distance but much more bearable 

The only reason I'm considering a town now is because some of the newer ones look like they might be better thought out. As mentioned before they seem to be staggered so not all walls are connecting to your neighbors, and some rooms like the master bedroom might not share a connection at all. And of course on top of all this we'd be able to spend less for more space (in some cases), and with little or no need for updates/renos. I should mention we're first time home buyers as well. My preference will always be full detached, but no matter where we look we're having a hard time seeing the value in some of these small houses that need renos (especially when people start bidding). 

A previous poster here mentioned being able to smell smoke from the neighbors, this would be a massive concern to me.. but I have no idea how ventilation systems are typically done in these homes (are they all different?)


----------



## Prospector (Jul 25, 2014)

Hey! We traded neighbourhoods! 

I was living in Keswick and working in Richmond Hill. The communte from Keswick to the city was about 45 - 50 minutes. This was before the 404 extension. About half of that time was from Elgin Mills to Hwy 7 IIRC. This was 5 years ago. Things change.

Today we live and work in Durham. I can ride my bike to work. The drive home is about 3 songs long. Worlds of difference.

Its hard to find low cost real estate anywhere in York Region. I wish you luck - but make sure your commute is as reasonable as possible. You don't realize the suck while you're driving it since its just routine, but I sure see it now.


----------



## piano mom (Jan 18, 2012)

My Chinese neighbour sold her townhouse because she hated paying $430 a month in maintenance fee. She bought into my neighbourhood with a sizable mortgage. You see, not all chinese buyers are rich.

The irony is, because she and her husband are not hands on people ( they lived in a condo in Shanghai) she has spent thousands hiring people to clean gutter, mow the lawn, fix small little issues around the house.


----------



## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

You also have to consider where you are going to put the snow that falls on your driveway. I find today's builders will take whatever footprint of land they buy, and in my opinion, build too many units for that footprint. It's funny walking by them in winter and seeing the snow piled so high on about 4 feet of land that each have on one side (because they connect driveways with their neighbour). Think about record snow falls when reviewing your property. If you are Canadian, you know about shovelling snow. It is bad enough without having to throw it 8 feet high or walk it to some other area with less snow or to lift it again because if fell back down onto your driveway or your neighbours driveway on the other side of your pile. Forget about snow blowers. With the garage that allows maybe 1 foot on either side of your car, it is difficult to store a snowblower...and it has to put the snow somewhere also.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Must be that other places are different, but around here linked homes are always condos and townhouses which are designated condos and share maintenance fees.

There aren't many "freehold" townhouses or linked homes for sale, but I have seen a few and they generally look a little odd, with each neighbor choosing their own roof shingle and eaves paint color, front door replacements etc. With a freehold townhouse each homeowner is also responsible for all exterior maintenance as well as the interior. Condo fees pay for more than basic yard maintenance and usually include the roof, doors, windows, parking, sidewalks, and exterior of the unit. Something to consider........freehold townhouses have all the responsibility of a freehold detached home and none of the benefits.

With the freedom comes individual quirks and that means less of a uniformity among the units, so I guess it depends on which you prefer.

Generally owning your own home is the best idea for growing families, but often the housing cycle is rent a unit, buy a home, sell the home, buy a condo, sell the condo and rent...........it is full circle for many people.

We kept moving up in the size of our homes and then ended up with a home that was too big for us anyways. We rent a townhouse and love it..........but it does depend on the location, landlord and neighbors.

The latest real estate craze around here is upscale apartment condominiums............the fancier and more expensive the better.

The most luxurious and expensive new building in our city is still in the planning stages and they held a VIP weekend. They sold 50 units in one day.

Changing demographics and the desire of people to live in densely populated downtown core areas is changing the real estate world.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OptsyEagle said:


> You also have to consider where you are going to put the snow that falls on your driveway. It's funny walking by them in winter and seeing the snow piled so high on about 4 feet of land that each have on one side (because they connect driveways with their neighbour).
> 
> Think about record snow falls when reviewing your property. If you are Canadian, you know about shovelling snow. It is bad enough without having to throw it 8 feet high or walk it to some other area with less snow or to lift it again because if fell back down onto your driveway or your neighbours driveway on the other side of your pile. Forget about snow blowers. With the garage that allows maybe 1 foot on either side of your car, *it is difficult to store a snowblower...and it has to put the snow somewhere als*o.


Around here the snowblowers (for those that have them) are stored in the garages along with the other possessions
and the vehicles stay outside on the driveways. Not so good in freezing rain situations, but that is what a lot of
homeowners do.

In my area, there are freehold town house units, some with double driveways and double garage and others with single driveways
and single garages. 
There are 5 in a row with the end units having the biggest side yard entrance. Pretty much most owners co-operate
with each other for taking in a wheelbarrow or lawnmower into the inside units yards with gates in the back yard dividing fences.

Most have a small garden shed and keep the lawnmowers in them so they don`t have to move the lawnmower back and forth.

These units were built in the early 70s. Originally there was a legal right of way on each side yard leading to a small 6 foot wide
right of way at the back of the yards, but there was a fight between a neighbour and one of his neighbours in the same units that
went all the way to the courts, so the right of way was abolished.

It`s funny seeing the neighbours deal with a significant amount of snowfall on these double driveways adjacent to each other
when there is a privet hedge or just a small strip of grass separating the front of the units.


----------



## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Some townhouses have the units separated by the garage. Pretty rare however. don't know why more developers don't have them that way. Price probably. 
Strata counsels can be dysfunctional and make weird decisions that turn out to be convenient for .... counsel members.


----------



## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

I live in an "executive" townhouse. I guess that means it's relatively new with upgraded appliances. I knew people who lived in townhouses in North York, built probably in the 70s and 80s, which had a dinginess about them from the outside, and those were probably not marketed as "executive" townhouses. Of course, my place might look kind of dingy in a few decades too.

Anyway, from the inside, it looks great, i have 2000 sq ft over 3 floors and 3 bedrooms, 3 full baths, and 1 powder room, nice upgraded finishes and whatnot. The biggest irritations are (1) only one indoor parking garage, and one parking space outside. I'm constantly moving cars around to get the inside car out. My wife and I don't usually use each other's cars. 

The second big irritation (2) which others have mentioned, they put probably two double 5/8 drywall boards between units with some fiberglass insulation sandwiched between...you will hear your neighbours. You won't hear speech, but you'll hear muffled sounds, foot steps, doors, late night music! It's really not that bad if you know that's what you'll get, and you kind of get used to it if you have half decent neighbours but it used to piss me off when neighbour's kids would play loud music up to midnight, admittedly on a weekend, which I can actually understand. But that still bothered me when I was trying to get my newborn to fall asleep. I politely talked to them about it, but still, it's just one of those things you might have to deal with. Otherwise, townhouse itself is nice and substantial, as compared with a similarly-sized detached.

However, if you go with a detached house, if it's relatively new, they are built on these tiny lots and you're probably not more than a couple feet from your neighbours anyway, and you might hear noises coming from them even though you're in a detached house. My parents had this problem sometimes up in Markham. The other obvious thing is depending on where you are, and you must be somewhere expensive if you're contemplating a townhouse, is that a detached house is way more expensive.

I could buy a whole second townhouse or second detached house in a neighbouring city for the same price as one detached house in my neighbourhood. I would have preferred to have a detached, and some people think it's an investment to buy an admittedly overpriced detached house (I don't fully agree), but the prices in some cities are just too ridiculous and I actually think that "investment" argument basically has no backing, even if somehow the house goes up in value.

You can be totally comfortable in a townhouse. You will probably be mortgage free way sooner. You can probably find a townhouse with the amount of space you need, and spend on making it more to your liking. You can probably get a fancy car because you're not buried by a mortgage that's over half a million dollars. If you are looking at a $1M detached house, and you want to put 20% down, that's $200k. You could buy a whole house for about that much. Furthermore, I also don't know where people are getting hundreds of thousands of dollars for down payments. It's not easy to accumulate a few hundred thousand dollars, and to have more than a half million on a mortgage even though you've put down a few hundred thousand...that's insane.


----------



## piano mom (Jan 18, 2012)

@digitalatlas, wow, 2000 Sq ft townhouse. Must be nice and spacious. I don't see many big townhouses lately. How much is your monthly maintenance fee?

Regarding noise, unfortunately we can still hear our neighbour talking and playing music in their backyard and our bedroom window faces into their yard. Unless you live in an acreage, you are pretty much at mercy of your neighbour's courtesy or lack there of.


----------



## bpcrally (Sep 12, 2010)

Great posts everyone! This is exactly what I was looking for.

My wife and I went and looked at a townhouse over the weekend, its fairly new (I think around 5-10 years). We've seen a lot of detached houses, and the townhouse totally blew away my expectations. My one big concern was about getting stuff (ie lawnmower) from front to back without tracking it through the house. The one we looked at has a pathway/tunnel type thing that runs from the back of the garages and into the back yard. This also means that the houses are not connected at this side on the lower floor! I'm not sure if this is common with townhouses but this was totally new to me.

The rest as others have mentioned like space and upgrades would also be a benefit, this place certainly had some. It totally shifted my opinion of a townhouse. Plus as mentioned above it would give us the opportunity to pay it down faster. 

So now my main concern comes down to noise. Some of this was taken away because the house isnt technically connected at all parts, and theyve also staggered the units so that the're not 100% side by side. Unfortunately there isnt really any way of testing out how well they insulated between the two units. This unit also featured a well thought out unfinished basement, so I could see myself finishing that pretty quickly and using that space for a theatre/entertainment type room. 

My wife has been "meh" on every place we've seen, and now shes actually pretty excited about the unit we saw, so I think we might move forward on it. Now I just pray it doesnt turn into some silly bidding war.
wish me luck!


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

bpcrally said:


> So now *my main concern comes down to noise.* Some of this was taken away because the house isnt technically connected at all parts, and theyve also staggered the units so that the're not 100% side by side. Unfortunately there isnt really any way of testing out how well they insulated between the two units. This unit also featured a well thought out unfinished basement, so I could see myself finishing that pretty quickly and using that space for a theatre/entertainment type room.


Background noise through the walls and floor will still be present, as most units are built on floor joists that are connected to each other in the floors, so the new construction has a lot to do with it..especially multi-level units.

The only thing that may be separate is the basement foundation walls. Even if they are staggered, the insulation used
in the walls may not be enough to cut out all the noise.

In the previous years, there used to be cement block fire walls separating two inside units, but that is no longer the case as fire code regulations just require two layers of 5/8 inch drywall
as a firebreak on each side of the common wall that separates you from your neighbour.

That will stop some noise, but if the neighbour throws large noisy parties at night or plays a 1000watt
stereo at high levels, you are going to hear the sound spill. 

Outside noise from the street from traffic may be another issue, depending on the type of windows the builders used.

In other words, don't expect recording studio sound proofing in these units.


----------



## bpcrally (Sep 12, 2010)

carverman said:


> In other words, don't expect recording studio sound proofing in these units.


Good point. I'm okay with some noise. I'll see how this plays out today.


----------



## RentGera (Apr 28, 2016)

Living in a townhouse really depends on the shared wall structure. If it's made if concrete, then you are golden. Even sound insulation works really well. If your really concerned about sound, ask to visit the house during a busy time when their neighbours are at home.


----------

