# TDDI adds Securities Transfers feature



## james4beach

This is a nice improvement and it sounds like this now lets you journal shares (yourself) between sub accounts, along with other things. I'm copy & pasting the TD announcement below, including link to a video:


Now you can transfer securities between your Direct Investing accounts in WebBroker. To do so, just select the new Securities Transfers tab on the Transfers screen and follow the steps.

Click here to watch the video.

The Securities Transfers tab is replacing the In-Kind Contributions tab, which let you contribute securities in-kind to the CAD component of your TFSA, RSP or RESP.

The new Securities Transfer tab can do that and much more:


 Transfer securities from the CAD component of an account to the USD component of the same account or vice versa
 Transfer securities between non-registered accounts (different account types, same or different currency)

Please note that that you can only transfer assets to accounts where you are the primary owner. Any WebBroker sub-accounts where you have Trading Authority or Power of Attorney will not appear. Security transfers between non-personal accounts are not supported at this time.

When you transfer securities in WebBroker during regular business hours, the transaction will take place immediately. Otherwise, it will be processed on the next business day.


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## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> This is a nice improvement...


Yeah, agreed. I like the info that will be available on the RRIF Withdrawal screen:


_The following details about your RRIF account can be found in the new RRIF Withdrawal screen:

Yearly Mandatory Withdrawal amount
Withdrawal frequency
Next scheduled withdrawal date
Withdrawal amount
Withdrawal destination account
CAD vs. USD schedule allocation (for USD RIF accountholders)
Amount withdrawn year-to-date
Withholding tax paid year-to-date
Amount remaining (withholding tax-free)_

ltr


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## gardner

james4beach said:


> during regular business hours, the transaction will take place immediately


Whoohoo! This is great news.

Has anyone tried it for Norberting? Any experience if there is currency weirdness or problems with waiting for settlement?


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## james4beach

gardner said:


> Whoohoo! This is great news.
> 
> Has anyone tried it for Norberting? Any experience if there is currency weirdness or problems with waiting for settlement?


I haven't yet, but I intend to try one of my short-first gambits (Shogam) this month and I will definitely post an update here. Maybe with this change, I can now do everything online by myself. I will try moving shares from the US Margin account (USD denominated) to the Cdn Short account (CAD denominated).


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## AltaRed

james4beach said:


> When you transfer securities in WebBroker during regular business hours, the transaction will take place immediately. Otherwise, it will be processed on the next business day.


What happens with ACB conversions? Where and how do they maintain original transactional ACB?


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## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> What happens with ACB conversions? Where and how do they maintain original transactional ACB?


I'm going to assume the cost basis will get messed up as a result of these transfers, which is what seems to happen currently when they manually transfer securities. But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised


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## AltaRed

That is my guess too. Pity the poor sods who rely on brokerage Cost/Book data for their ACB.


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## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I'm going to assume the cost basis will get messed up as a result of these transfers, which is what seems to happen currently when they manually transfer securities. But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised



if people are doing true gambits, they are buying & quickly selling same stock in interlisted markets, plus a gambit arbitrage is normally done with a stock that one doesn't already own.

TDDI continues to make the same mistake in cost-basing a journalled stock; it uses the FX rate of the journal date, not the FX rate of the actual day of purchase (this latter would be the correct rate) However in a pure gambit arbitrage, there will not be very much FX change between day of purchase plus 2 days for settlement. People will have to live with the TD system even though it is quite wrong.

what does cause trouble are journals of long-held stock, where the current FX rate on journalled stock is vastly different from the long-ago FX rate of the date of purchase. Here the big green is being stubborn about its wrongful system (not the first time the TD has retreated to Wrongful Stubborn, they were infamously double-FXing clients on US DRIP dividends while denying the same a few years ago)

clients who want to change the false TD-imposed FX rate are now required to submit a quasi-legal paper dossier - would you believe clients have to visit a TD bank branch & sign a form objecting to a wrongful TDDI book value, ie cost base.

even more outrageous is that such clients have to prepare & submit photocopies of older TDDI statements showing original long-ago purchases, then clients need to download & print Bank of canada spot rates for the day of such long-ago purchases ... even though TDDI is perfectly capable of looking up its own archives itself.

i've noticed that BMO broker is being very reasonable about allowing their call centre representatives to at least discuss cost base calculations, whereas the TD has forbidden its staff from discussing. TD clients need to file a paper dossier along the lines of a full-blown Mukhang Pera case law pleading.


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## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I haven't yet, but I intend to try one of my short-first gambits (Shogam) this month and I will definitely post an update here. Maybe with this change, I can now do everything online by myself.


this should work 100% online, although it's tedious & involves several steps. Currency gambit arbitrage at BMO & royal bank is & always has been much simpler. Instant fast, online, cheap.


PS for regular gambits (not jas4's short gambits) i believe the TD will stick to its T + 2 settlement routine. There's a good reason for that. Very technical reason, not taking the space to explain here ... but i for one approve of the TD's prudent delay.

.


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## humble_pie

TD's new cross-currency journal feature will have the usual TD T+2 delays. Exceptions are clients who are journalling stock which has already settled. However this move would not be advised in a currency gambit pair trade unless client is deliberately intending to trigger a capital gain or loss.


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## james4beach

Unfortunately it doesn't look like the transfer tool supports the short accounts, so I'm still going to have to phone in to ask for those journals.


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## gardner

I just competed a Norbert of ~$US 10K using DLR.U ---> DLR using this transfer. It was a headache to wait for the DLR.U to settle, but this morning the transfer took only a minute or so to show up. The whole transfer yielded a net cost of 0.22% relative to spot this morning, so I am pretty satisfied with how it worked. The broker-assisted fee would have put that to 0.45%, approximately, but would have saved me waiting the T+2 days. I think this is going to be okay for my needs.

Interesting that DLR.U is creeping up these days -- from 9.96 last spring to 10.06 today. The long term chart shows corrections in Jan 2015 and Jan 2016. Is there a risk holding DLR.U in mid Jan. that there'll be a correction like this? What is the mechanism they use to make the adjustment, I wonder?


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## goldman

Great news! 
@ gardener what steps did you follow to complete your Norbert using this new TDDI transfer feature? 

The first time I tried doing a Norbert with DLR.U by phoning in to journal the shares to flatten the trade, it seemed like more trouble than it needed to be to just make a fair USD/CAD exchange rate. But from now on if we can do it automatically at TDDI now by clicking a box that's fantastic!


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## gardner

In my case,

1 - Check out the spreads and prices on DLR, DLR.U and C$US$ spot rates to make sure everything is the way it should be
2 - Buy the DLR.U with a limit order specifying the offer price from the quote; sell TDB8152 to cover
3 - Wait for settlement. This is the nail biter time where the broker assisted TX would be an option; settlement takes 2 days and I tried doing the transfer on the first and second day to see what would happen. The unsettled holding shows up as "ineligible"
4 - Transfer the DLR.U units; wait a minute or two to see the DLR show up in your C$ account
5 - Sell using a limit at the offer price.
6 - Calculate the actual effective exchange rate obtained for your currency gain records


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## gardner

Does anyone know if you can do transfers between an RRSP and RRIF using this feature?


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## gardner

In February I used the transfer function to contribute TDB8152 US$ ISA units in-kind to my RRSP. These contributions automatically go into your C$ account, for some reason. Later on the 5th I did the transfer from the C$ to U$ section, which APPEARED to complete right away. Then I bought some PG and MCD and entered an order to sell TDB8152 to cover.

Unbeknownst to me, the transfer from the C$ to U$ was not in fact complete, and my sell TDB8152 to cover was cancelled. So a couple of days later, TD conveniently issued their own order to sell TDB8152 to cover and added a $17 fee to the whole thing. Noticing this all today I called them to complain. They're reversing the fee and apologising. But they advise me that since TDB8152 is handled as a mutual fund, unlike securities, orders can't be placed on the same day as the transfer, despite that the order system accepts the order.

This all seems exceptionally stupid -- the sell order was only going to execute overnight anyway, so why the transfer and sell couldn't simply execute together overnight, I am totally confused about.


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## AltaRed

The issue is the regulator does not permit one to be short of funds in registered accounts, even if for one day. You would have been 'short' by one day. I found this out a few years back as well with Scotia iTrade.


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## james4beach

I tried the TD securities transfer feature today (between cash & margin accounts, not short). Amazing! Very nice interface. I was surprised to see this took effect instantly. The shares were gone from the source account, already in the destination after I went back to see the holdings.

Really nice improvement from TD here.


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## leeder

Has anyone used this feature to transfer TDB8150 from one account to another? I was planning to transfer the 6k from my taxable account directly to the TFSA account in January.


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## james4beach

leeder said:


> Has anyone used this feature to transfer TDB8150 from one account to another? I was planning to transfer the 6k from my taxable account directly to the TFSA account in January.


I didn't, but I think it's possible. I typed in the TDB8150 code and that security did show up in my screen as available to transfer so it looks like it will work.

However, I'm not sure about moving into a TFSA. I've only used this tool to transfer between non registered accounts.


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## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I didn't, but I think it's possible. I typed in the TDB8150 code and that security did show up in my screen as available to transfer so it looks like it will work.
> 
> However, I'm not sure about moving into a TFSA. I've only used this tool to transfer between non registered accounts.


System appears down today on my end.


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## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> System appears down today on my end.


I logged into TDDI, went to Securities Transfers, and selected two non-registered accounts.

I am able to search for the ISA (TDB...) symbol name and it shows as available for transfer, as of 4:24 pm eastern time. However I did not proceed to finalize it.


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## humble_pie

Money172375 said:


> System appears down today on my end.



most or all accounts with options are locked down, not open to securities transfer

i'm guessing here but it would seem logical that cash accounts waiting for additional cash to be injected during T+2 settlement period after a new purchase might also be locked down

"unshared" accounts are, by definition, locked down

undoubtedly there are other configurations which cause securities transfer to lock down

i for one am happy to note these prohibitions & lockdowns. They might be perceived as nuisance by legitimate account owners but they reinforce security & help to prevent hacking.


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## james4beach

Can someone who's used the TD 'securities transfer' tell me how the timeline works for this?

On Monday, I bought the ETF. With T+2 settlement it should have settled today, Wednesday. At around 4:30 pm on Wednesday, after market close, I used the securities transfer tool to move the shares from one account to another but did not see any activity or change in holdings... I waited a few hours and checked again, but still no change.

Does anyone know how soon the shares will actually move?


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## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Can someone who's used the TD 'securities transfer' tell me how the timeline works for this?
> 
> On Monday, I bought the ETF. With T+2 settlement it should have settled today, Wednesday. At around 4:30 pm on Wednesday, after market close, I used the securities transfer tool to move the shares from one account to another but did not see any activity or change in holdings... I waited a few hours and checked again, but still no change.
> 
> Does anyone know how soon the shares will actually move?


Can’t say I recall. I only use it once a year. However, I sometimes see transactions appear in the “transaction” section before I see it settled in the “holdings” section.


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## hboy54

james4beach said:


> Can someone who's used the TD 'securities transfer' tell me how the timeline works for this?
> 
> On Monday, I bought the ETF. With T+2 settlement it should have settled today, Wednesday. At around 4:30 pm on Wednesday, after market close, I used the securities transfer tool to move the shares from one account to another but did not see any activity or change in holdings... I waited a few hours and checked again, but still no change.
> 
> Does anyone know how soon the shares will actually move?


Like everything TDDI website ... it is unreliable. I have had transfers confirmed that did not happen. If the holdings view updates, it happened if not, it didn't. Try again another day is my best advice.


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## james4beach

hboy54 said:


> Like everything TDDI website ... it is unreliable. I have had transfers confirmed that did not happen. If the holdings view updates, it happened if not, it didn't. Try again another day is my best advice.


Good advice. Same as what you describe, my first attempt was confirmed (according to the tool) but did not happen. I went in again and tried it now, and it worked and moved the shares.


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## Covariance

james4beach said:


> Good advice. Same as what you describe, my first attempt was confirmed (according to the tool) but did not happen. I went in again and tried it now, and it worked and moved the shares.


I have had problems in the past cutting it fine. I now just wait for the day after T+2. Always works when I do it mid day T+3 (for a T+2 settlement).


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## james4beach

Covariance said:


> I have had problems in the past cutting it fine. I now just wait for the day after T+2. Always works when I do it mid day T+3 (for a T+2 settlement).


Yes I think you're right. When I tried it on the T+2 day, it failed. It only seems to work on the day after T+2.

Example: buy on Monday, settles on Wednesday, then transfer on Thursday.


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## hboy54

My hunch is that the transfer actually has a human in the loop. So all the confirm does is tell you that the request landed in someone's in box. They might process it more or less instantaneously on a slow day, or might happen closer to T+2.


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## Retired Peasant

james4beach said:


> Good advice. Same as what you describe, my first attempt was confirmed (according to the tool) but did not happen. I went in again and tried it now, and it worked and moved the shares.


Keep an eye on it; it might just happen twice.


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## smihaila

james4beach said:


> Unfortunately it doesn't look like the transfer tool supports the *short accounts*, so I'm still going to have to phone in to ask for those journals.


Hi james4beach, sorry to resuscitate an old thread. Does the TDDI's "security transfer" tool work nowadays with short accounts as target?


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## Spudd

smihaila said:


> Hi james4beach, sorry to resuscitate an old thread. Does the TDDI's "security transfer" tool work nowadays with short accounts as target?


I'm not James, and I don't have a short account so I can't say for sure, but when you go into the security transfer tool it only shows you the accounts that it will work with in the tool. So you can easily check for yourself.


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## Covariance

smihaila said:


> Hi james4beach, sorry to resuscitate an old thread. Does the TDDI's "security transfer" tool work nowadays with short accounts as target?


If I understand correctly you are trying to transfer shares from an account in which you actually own the shares to an account in which you are short the same security. As a combined entity you are net zero and wish to internally settle the short position. If this is the case - I have done this in the past at TDDI.

Note, you should be aware of any corporate actions, dividends etc that would hold up the transfer. This is the case in situations where the company needs to know exactly on certain dates who owns the shares for voting, distribution of dividends, etc.


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## smihaila

Spudd said:


> I don't have a short account so I can't say for sure, but when you go into the security transfer tool it only shows you the accounts that it will work with in the tool. So you can easily check for yourself.


The main menu => "Accounts" => "Account holdings" page shows 4 accounts in total, as expected:

"CAD margin"
"USD margin"
"CAD margin short"
"USD margin short"
But when I go to main menu => "Accounts" => "Securities Transfers", I see this:

"From:" drop-down field shows only "CAD margin" and "USD margin".
"To:" drop-down field is grayed-out, and I cannot see what it would be able to populate there. Probably because the TDDI's web user interface tries to be smarter, and populate the "To:" dynamically, based on what's being selected in "From:".
Unfortunately all my accounts are on zero balance, and selecting either of the two possible options in "From:" will show a warning like "Account selected has no securities available.", and the "To:" field will continue to stay grayed out.

Thus, I cannot test this. There is no assurance that even if I had cash balance or securities in one of the CAD or USD margin accounts, the "To:" field would then be able to show either of the "margin short" account.

Hopefully in order for such "securities transfer" to work, the margin accounts (as opposed to simple / cash accounts) are eligible as source of transfer - but only somebody else (having margin accounts with some value in them) could confirm if it works.

Thanks.


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## smihaila

Covariance said:


> If I understand correctly you are trying to transfer shares from an account in which you actually own the shares to an account in which you are short the same security. As a combined entity you are net zero and wish to internally settle the short position. If this is the case - I have done this in the past at TDDI.


Yes, precisely. I just wished to check that I would be all set for my very first ShoGam that I'm planning to do in the near feature.
Now, I've tried to test the waters (as per Spudd's suggestion), but the UI seems to be more contextual / dynamic than expected, in the sense that a "margin + short" account cannot be seen in either the "From:" or the "To:" fields in that "Securities Transfer" dialog (the "To:" is actually disabled completely, and can't see what would otherwise populate in there).



Covariance said:


> Note, you should be aware of any corporate actions, dividends etc that would hold up the transfer. This is the case in situations where the company needs to know exactly on certain dates who owns the shares for voting, distribution of dividends, etc.


Got it. The shorted security will probably be a DLR.U (inside the "USD margin short" account", in order to prepare for a ShoGam in CAD => USD conversion direction. So probably DLR / DLR.U won't be subject to ex-dividend dates and corporate actions. But that's good to know - in case I might use a higher-priced inter-listed stock, such as RY.

Thanks!


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## james4beach

smihaila said:


> Yes, precisely. I just wished to check that I would be all set for my very first ShoGam that I'm planning to do in the near feature.


Sorry, I don't know if the short accounts are supported.

But you don't have to do any short selling if you use DLR and DLR.U. Yes there is some waiting involved doing it this way, but I like this approach and haven't used any short sales recently.

You'd just buy one of the pair, wait for it to settle, then to the security transfer. This has become easier since settlement is now only T+1 for DLR. The brokers treat it as a special case, and give it fast settlement.


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## smihaila

james4beach said:


> Sorry, I don't know if the short accounts are supported.
> 
> But you don't have to do any short selling if you use DLR and DLR.U. Yes there is some waiting involved doing it this way, but I like this approach and haven't used any short sales recently.
> 
> You'd just buy one of the pair, wait for it to settle, then to the security transfer. This has become easier since settlement is now only T+1 for DLR. The brokers treat it as a special case, and give it fast settlement.


Yes, there wouldn't be any exposure to currency fluctuations for a CAD => USD direction, after purchasing the DLR. I was thinking about the short-first approach in case the 1 cent bid/spread would not "scale" well with a large amount (500K), transaction cost-wise, and thus a higher-priced carrier stock (RY or Manulife) may bring the overall percentage-over-the-spot rate significantly lower . To achieve what you've been achieving (0.17% or less). But if that's not the case, I'll be perfectly ok with the DLR / DLR.U pair.

Thank you.


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## AltaRed

With DLR/DLR.U combination, the advantage is liquidity* that beats any interlisted stock and a 'guarantee' that the spread is only ever 1 cent on each side. It might be possible to reduce that overall spreada to 1 cent full trip on an interlisted stock but that is not necessarily the case. Spreads can be more than 1 cent and market price can also move between the short time one does the NG. I am far more comfortable with the 'certainty' approach but that is a personal choice.... and I repeat, a personal choice. Many folk prefer to use interlisted stock with margin accounts.

Added: I have converted ~$200k in 4 tranches over the last 2 years using DLR/DLR.U.. A two cent spread is less than 0.2% (based on $10 units round trip) or $400 total on the entire amount. I might have been able to cut that by a factor of 4 with a $100 interlisted stock but no guarantee of that at all (given a spread of 1 cent is not guaranteed and market price movements could have tripped me up between buy/sell timing).

* Typically 200k to 500k DLR or DLR.U units on either side of Bid/Ask, which is $2M-$5M in actual value. A retail investor doing a $25k buy/sell is a pimple on an elephant's butt. DLR has already traded almost 400,000 units ($4M) today as I type this.


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## Retiredguy

TDDI has a feature for registered accounts to allow US$ buys and sells without incurring forex. You have to phone (once) and ask for it to be setup.

Anyone done this and can describe how it works in practice.?

Edit: link added.

Currency Conversions in Registered Plan Accounts | TD Direct Investing


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## Spudd

Retiredguy said:


> TDDI has a feature for registered accounts to allow US$ buys and sells without incurring forex. You have to phone (once) and ask for it to be setup.
> 
> Anyone done this and can describe how it works in practice.?
> 
> Edit: link added.
> 
> Currency Conversions in Registered Plan Accounts | TD Direct Investing


I don't think this is relevant anymore, since now they have separate USD and CAD accounts. In the past, they didn't have that, and that's when this procedure was useful. Nowadays, you just move money to your USD account and take the one-time exchange hit, or use Norbert's Gambit to get it in there, and then all future buys/sells remain in USD with no forex.


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## Retiredguy

Spudd said:


> I don't think this is relevant anymore, since now they have separate USD and CAD accounts. In the past, they didn't have that, and that's when this procedure was useful. Nowadays, you just move money to your USD account and take the one-time exchange hit, or use Norbert's Gambit to get it in there, and then all future buys/sells remain in USD with no forex.


I have both C$ and US$ accounts for my_ non registered accounts,_ are you saying they now have separate US$ accounts for _registered _accounts?

I guess I should do the obvious and phone them. LOL!

Edit:

Tried phoning TD as they said it simply requires a phone call to them to add what's required, but it's obviously not so "simply" as after 30 minutes of listening to a broken record I hung up. I've sent a email and now wait.

Edit 2021-12-31.
TD responded to my email and just told me to keep trying to phone! After a few long waits over a couple of days I kept hanging up in frustration. Finally on Dec 24th I got right thru and the staff person quickly set the US$ TFSA up and said it would appear online on the 28th, and it did.


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## Covariance

Retiredguy said:


> I have both C$ and US$ accounts for my_ non registered accounts,_ are you saying they now have separate US$ accounts for _registered _accounts?
> 
> I guess I should do the obvious and phone them. LOL!


Yes they do.


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## Covariance

smihaila said:


> Yes, precisely. I just wished to check that I would be all set for my very first ShoGam that I'm planning to do in the near feature.
> Now, I've tried to test the waters (as per Spudd's suggestion), but the UI seems to be more contextual / dynamic than expected, in the sense that a "margin + short" account cannot be seen in either the "From:" or the "To:" fields in that "Securities Transfer" dialog (the "To:" is actually disabled completely, and can't see what would otherwise populate in there).
> 
> 
> Got it. The shorted security will probably be a DLR.U (inside the "USD margin short" account", in order to prepare for a ShoGam in CAD => USD conversion direction. So probably DLR / DLR.U won't be subject to ex-dividend dates and corporate actions. But that's good to know - in case I might use a higher-priced inter-listed stock, such as RY.
> 
> Thanks!


Note: my comments were in reference to shares in a company where the same, ie identical shares, trade on a US and Canadian exchange. DLR are ETF units, not shares in a company. Not clear to me that short/long hedge and transfer is the correct way or even possible to achieve your goal.

Also: A short account would not appear as either a source or destination as they are liability accounts.


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## smihaila

AltaRed said:


> [...]
> I have converted ~$200k in 4 tranches over the last 2 years using DLR/DLR.U.. A two cent spread is less than 0.2% (based on $10 units round trip) or $400 total on the entire amount. I might have been able to cut that by a factor of 4 with a $100 interlisted stock but no guarantee of that at all (given a spread of 1 cent is not guaranteed and market price movements could have tripped me up between buy/sell timing).


The 2 cent spread at approx. $10 DLR.U price, is invariant to the amount subject to conversion (10 * 0.02 * 100 %), so yeah, 0.2% is not bad at all...



AltaRed said:


> * Typically 200k to 500k DLR or DLR.U units on either side of Bid/Ask, which is $2M-$5M in actual value. A retail investor doing a $25k buy/sell is a pimple on an elephant's butt. DLR has already traded almost 400,000 units ($4M) today as I type this.


Theoretically speaking: Would a 500K done one-shot impact the DLR / DLR.U liquidity in more tangible way (i.e. detrimental to conversion outcome) than a 25k chunk?

Thanks.


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## AltaRed

Probably not. $500k is 50k units. Real time Level 2 quotes often show another 200k-500k of units at a further 1 cent spread which would probably 'reach' to meet a Bid/Ask. There is a lot of liquidity.


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## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> Probably not. $500k is 50k units. Real time Level 2 quotes often show another 200k-500k of units at a further 1 cent spread which would probably 'reach' to meet a Bid/Ask. There is a lot of liquidity.


The orders on DLR.U can also fill at half cent levels, potentially better than the "ask" shown on the ticker. I'm not sure how that happens but you *can* get a better fill price than your limit order.

Real examples from some trades I made this year,
Buy 2,300 shares DLR.U at limit 10.08, filled at 10.075
Buy 1,500 shares DLR.U at limit 10.07, filled at 10.065

I've seen this half cent price improvement in about half of my DLR.U trades.


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## AltaRed

Half cent transactions do show up from time to time but I've never had that success. You have to be first in line in the queue at the same time the other side goes the half cent route. It happens daily but only a few times in the daily 200k to 500k in volume. I certainly wouldn't bank on it. Consider it a bonus if it happens.


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## smihaila

Interesting.


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