# The Senate



## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

Geez you guys have it all, (or had it) When is enough------enough?
Even the Street people I know in downtown The Pas can see a scam like this.
There is a limit!


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

The NDP want to abolish the Senate. I completely agree with that.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Abolishing the Senate is a pipe dream.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

pwm said:


> The NDP want to abolish the Senate. I completely agree with that.


I don't. There is a need for the Senate for its intended purpose: house of second sober thought. The problem that we have is that it is being misused, namely that it is used for political purposes.

1. The lifetime appointment was meant to ensure continuity between governments.
2. It should be non-partisan which is why an elected senate is one of the worst ideas for reform. All that does is duplicate the House of Commons with the senators voting along political lines.

It's a good institution, but only if it were used as it was originally intended. No reform is really required, although I would change the selection process. I would make it a job application with a few criteria (years of private sector experience with community involvement and primary residence in the province of interest). The current senators and MPs can vet the applicants via committee and present two or three top candidates to the PM for selection. 

The idea of an elected senate is problematic as it makes it political and attracts a certain type of candidates, duplicating the House of Commons. It should be a position more widely available to the public and not to political hacks and failed politicians.


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

bcg, I rather agree with you that it is a venerable institution
but the blatant ripping off our system is too much for me, fuzzy rules or no, Duff and Ms Sask knew they were abusing or stealing from the taxpayer.

We have all fudged our taxes but I honestly don't have a residence in PEI which provides me with a $22K grant-----c'mon now.
You are in a position of trust, show a little respect. I can understand Conrad B. bending the envelope but Duff this is too much and also maybe cut back on the lobster/butter combo!


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Like I said, it is being abused and misused. On the other hand, if you believe the conspiracy theories, Harper picked these people deliberately to discredit the Senate. But reality is that Duffy was a partisan hack who was great at Conservative fundraisers and so was rewarded.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Any second check is better than none at all. The Senate's purpose is to check the work of the Commons and make sure they don't do anything stupid, crazy or illegal. This is a valuable service. You might not see it now, because they are there keeping an eye on things. But if they weren't there Parliament would be like a classroom when the teacher leaves. God knows they are bad enough already.

And as for the waste, extravagance and chiselling. I'm afraid that is part of the political process the world over. We should be grateful it is no worse than it is . There are a lot worse places than Canada.


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

Rust....come on gratefull, after what has come I wouldn't give this group double bunking in jail.

Never say it could be worse, because it is. Our goal should be vigilance from Chief Theresa up or down to Duff, be very , very carefull, they will pick your (my) pocket.

Maybe I'm getting old!


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Only one thing could be worse than having the current Senate.

That would be having Brian Mulroney and his gang of thieves in the House and still having the likes of Mike Duffy in the Senate.

Our current Prime Minister is a hypocrite. Even members of his own caucus are embarrassed beyond belief by his failure to act in any meaningful way.

Bev Oda gets clipped for a $16 dollar OJ. Mike Duffy submits false claims, commits fraud,etc. and what happens? He gets bailed out to the tune of $90K.
And the essential difference between these two? Money. Mike Duffy is a hugely successful fundraiser for the Conservative Party of Canada. After all, what other possible talents could this washed up media buffoon have? It makes me ashamed to be a Canadian.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

When was it any different? Where was it any different? Is there the possibility of improvement? When will we learn that politics is politics and politicians are made of the same clay as the rest of us?

Would anyone in his right mind trust his life, his honor and his fortune to the government, knowing what we know about the people in charge? Yet that is what we are called to do at every election and there are millions who believe we can benefit from more government, not less.

We would be better off if we could face the truth and demand less government, and watch them like a hawk. This is why doing away with any form of oversight strikes me as dangerous. I wouldn't mind seeing the senate reduced back to where it was in 1867. The only reason the senate is as large as it is, is that every PM from John A. McDonald on down has packed it with his friends in hope of pulling a few fast ones in Parliament without getting caught. Naturally this results in quite an increase in numbers over the years.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

The Senate should be for a sober second thought but it's too corrupt to do so. Kill it off and spare us all.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> When was it any different? Where was it any different? Is there the possibility of improvement? When will we learn that politics is politics and politicians are made of the same clay as the rest of us?
> 
> Would anyone in his right mind trust his life, his honor and his fortune to the government, knowing what we know about the people in charge? Yet that is what we are called to do at every election and there are millions who believe we can benefit from more government, not less.
> 
> We would be better off if we could face the truth and demand less government, and watch them like a hawk. This is why doing away with any form of oversight strikes me as dangerous. I wouldn't mind seeing the senate reduced back to where it was in 1867. The only reason the senate is as large as it is, is that every PM from John A. McDonald on down has packed it with his friends in hope of pulling a few fast ones in Parliament without getting caught. Naturally this results in quite an increase in numbers over the years.


Actually, the senate never expanded. It has been the same size since its conception. If you recall, one of the triple E tenet for senate reform was Equal, meaning that seats would be increased to adjust to the population of the province. Other than the addition of seats for Newfoundland and Labrador and the Territories, it has been constant. It currently sits at 105 seats, whereas it has been the House of Commons where seats have been added.

As for less government, be aware that it was mainly under Harper's watch that the public service size exploded from the Liberal cost cutting of around 220K to the current 262K.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> ....
> 
> The idea of an elected senate is problematic as it makes it political and attracts a certain type of candidates, duplicating the House of Commons. It should be a position more widely available to the public and not to political hacks and failed politicians.


And you think appointment of political hacks for life (or age 75, whichever comes first,) isn't political?
Why would a Prime Minister appoint anyone he doesn't expect to be grateful and compliant?
Duffy and Wallin have just both "resigned" from the Conservative Caucus. If Senators were independent thinkers they would not belong to party Caucuses that give them their marching orders.
Duffy was an (apparently) non-partisan journalist before his appointments. Since then he has become one the most popular fund-raising speakers for the Conservative party.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

OhGreatGuru said:


> And you think appointment of political hacks for life (or age 75, whichever comes first,) isn't political?
> Why would a Prime Minister appoint anyone he doesn't expect to be grateful and compliant?
> Duffy and Wallin have just both "resigned" from the Conservative Caucus. If Senators were independent thinkers they would not belong to party Caucuses that give them their marching orders.
> Duffy was an (apparently) non-partisan journalist before his appointments. Since then he has become one the most popular fund-raising speakers for the Conservative party.


And did you not understand what I was proposing? Make it a job application, and have the Senate and MPs vet out the candidates. Then present two or three finalists for the PM to appoint. Make another stipulation that they have no political background at all, including fundraising for parties (or stuffing envelopes etc). If your argument is that the appointed senator will feel thankful to the PM for the appointment, then there is nothing that can be done for that.

Make the Senate non-partisan, i.e. no parties what so ever. They should not be taking marching orders from any party because that is against the whole idea of the Senate. Add in the fact that they are not allowed any political activity whatsoever. In fact, it should just be considered a civil service job with absolutely NO political ties to make it effective. The minute that politics come into play, it becomes what it is now: a dumping ground for political hacks.


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

Gosh start trapping or farming in Northern Mb
IE) make a real living
Sorry but sober second thought is too many drinks the next day
Too much babbling I'm going to take the dog for a walk........................


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

At the end of the day, it'll be his highness Harper to dictate whether the Club Senate to go or not. 

Wish Carverman can chime in on this. :eagerness:


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

There are many highly respected Senators from all walks of life... yet the only household names most Canadians know are the screwball journalists Duffy and Wallin. Someone like Hadfield should take their place, or one of many Canadians who has actually accomplished great things behind the scenes. Don't let the media be your only window to the world.. The Senate is the only thing looking beyond a few years that has been around more than a few years... if anything we need more of that imo. 4 year plans based on popularity contests have serious limits.


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## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

No, I can not accept the staus quo with this senate. I could live in a Canada without it, I don't need to see privilaged jerks ripping us off and rubbing it in our faces.


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

(Mode) I see your point
Onwards and forward etc.........
Now when are my Jets gonna get the Cup?


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

mode3sour said:


> There are many highly respected Senators from all walks of life... yet the only household names most Canadians know are the screwball journalists Duffy and Wallin. Someone like Hadfield should take their place, or one of many Canadians who has actually accomplished great things behind the scenes. Don't let the media be your only window to the world.. The Senate is the only thing looking beyond a few years that has been around more than a few years... if anything we need more of that imo. 4 year plans based on popularity contests have serious limits.


very well said mode 
The media circus had me there for a minute, but you're right of course
we should be ditching those clowns and replacing them with some quality human beings who can and will make a difference; ie Hadfield


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Wish Carverman can chime in on this. :eagerness:


Same here! :concern:


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

Harper appointed Duffy & Wallin and since they are a reflection upon him, I expect that he had them properly vetted and found no reason to suspect they would abuse there position. Just as those who appointed the executives as Orange & EHealth had no reason to suspect they would abuse those positions. 

It always amazes me how people who should know better end up taking advantage of the system when there is no proper oversight .... especially when they are the ones that should be doing the oversight and setting the example.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

LondonHomes said:


> Harper appointed Duffy & Wallin and since they are a reflection upon him, I expect that he had them properly vetted and found no reason to suspect they would abuse there position. Just as those who appointed the executives as Orange & EHealth had no reason to suspect they would abuse those positions.
> 
> It always amazes me how people who should know better end up taking advantage of the system when there is no proper oversight .... especially when they are the ones that should be doing the oversight and setting the example.


You must be young or idealistic or both. Good for you. Keep it up. We need that.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

It's intriguing to me because Duff & Wallin spent their careers reporting the very type of scandal. It seems as if they convinced themselves that this was just how it goes in the government. The money they spent is not exactly out of line of any board of directors in any company half the size of Canada, who "work" a few hours a week as well, but the way they did it is wrong.

I've had a driver's licence in nearly every province in Canada, and at times have legitimate ties spread all over the country as well. This is very expensive and confusing so you take the money when you can because a lot of times you get screwed as well. I guess it's kind of like filling your taxes. There is oversight and there are always ways to work the system.

Something simple most people learn to check themselves by asking "What would this look like on the news?".. You'd think Duff & Wallin would know this. What ever happened to the fly on the wall?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We live in the era of "entitlement".

It begins young.......and goes all the way through to old age entitlements.

Pampered and bewildered..................would be appropriate words to apply to an awful lot of people.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> "What would this look like on the news?".. You'd think Duff & Wallin would know this. What ever happened to the fly on the wall?


I think they learned over many years that The Senate is not accountable and so they have capitalized on that with impunity.

(BTW thanks for the abbreviated moniker.)


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Mike Duffy has spoken to the media a few times lately...and stopped mid sentence on one response.

I am getting the very distinct impression that he is sending the PM and the Conservative Party a message.

I think that it is something like this...'if I go down, I am not going down alone'

It will be interesting to see what transpires now that the RCMP are involved and the whitewashed Senate report has been made public-along with the original version.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall when the PM's inner circle meets/discusses how to get out of this mess. I suspect that their own mismanagement of this sordid affair has robbed them of their ability to be proactive and spin, spin, spin. Looks like they will be in react mode for some time to come.


And just what is ambiguous about the question "Where do you live"???


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I live in Toronto, my brother lives in Ottawa

We were talking about the recent headlines regarding Ford and Duffy in each city.

Which would you rather have your local representative doing, crack or being a crook?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

fraser said:


> And just what is ambiguous about the question "Where do you live"???


A lot actually. If you spend more than a few months/year somewhere you are essentially "living" just as much as anywhere else. I have to answer such basic questions differently all the time depending who I'm talking to. I spend maybe 3 months/year where I "live" so it is certainly not defined as where you spend most of your time. I imagine most people could not possibly relate.

Duff & Wallin are supposed to representing PEI and SK so they should be living there somewhat in the first place. Since they spend more/significant time in Ontario for whatever reason, they've acquired ties there as well. Maybe they should just claim hotels rooms whenever they're in Ottawa instead?


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

fraser said:


> Mike Duffy has spoken to the media a few times lately...and stopped mid sentence on one response.
> I am getting the very distinct impression that he is sending the PM and the Conservative Party a message.
> I think that it is something like this...'if I go down, I am not going down alone'


Exactly my reaction as well.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> Since they spend more/significant time in Ontario for whatever reason, they've acquired ties there as well. Maybe they should just claim hotels rooms whenever they're in Ottawa instead?


That is what Duffy's $90k was all about. You cannot claim living expenses in Ottawa when you live there!

And you cannot be a senator from PEI when you live in Ottawa. It is called fraud and is a criminal activity. So sad that there is any doubt about this in our government. I used to be a strong supporter of Harper. Now he has forced me to admit that he is a sleazebag...


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

Don't forget also Pam has said her "heart" is in Saskatchewan.

So since your home is where your heart is, it does all rather add up.

And If Duff's $90,000 was just some bridge financing we are good to go---------"Let us get back to our good works!"


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

I just saw this article in the Ottawa Citizen and though it might be interesting with regards to Mike Duffy. It was written by a reporter colleague of his.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/n...kle+friends+have+abandoned/8463508/story.html

It would appear that he was pretty much leaning Conservative to the time leading up to his appointment and was focused on being a party man.


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## 6811 (Jan 1, 2013)

Mike Duffy explained !!!

While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75 year old farmer, whose hand was caught in the squeeze gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to politicians and their role as our leaders.

The old rancher said, "Well, you know, most politicians are 'Post Turtles'.''

Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him, what a 'post turtle' was.

The old rancher said, "When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle."

The old rancher saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain. "You know he didn't get up there by himself, he doesn't belong up there, he doesn't know what to do while he's up there, he's elevated beyond his ability to function, and you just wonder what kind of dumb *** put him up there to begin with."

Best explanation I've heard yet.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

6811..............That was hilarious...........thanks........


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

Ouch! Pam just got hit with $140,000 owing from the auditors.

That is some serious cash, better hope the harvest comes in decently Wadena way!


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We caught one of our sales managers cheating on his expenses. Not just a little, but a lot and there was obvious intent.

We had a chat with him and he resigned. He also paid back the entire amount that he misappropriated.

He had some personal pride left and had no issue with resigning-with no package. 

I seriously doubt whether Mike Duffy, Pamela Wallin, or the others will have the character to resign. They will remain pigs at the trough.

I can just hear Pam now......phoning Mike Duffy to get Nigel Wrights private cell number. Then calling it time and time again with no response!

Cannot imagine that the good folks in Wadena are very proud of her....let alone believe her stories and excuses. 

Given the choice of believing the veracity of a Deloitte report and believing Pam, I would take the former in a heartbeat. I suspect most people are in the same place.

So here's the other side. If you file in Ontario and are in the highest marginal tax bracket, you have to earn something like $240K before tax to net $120K in after tax dollars. No such issue if your 'income' is from expense account reimbursement. That is just one reason why expense account fraud is so appealing to some-and most especially to those Senators.


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