# The Apple Tablet



## moneymusing (Apr 3, 2009)

Although the announcement isn't official yet, are you going to buy a tablet? Is there a make or break price point at which you'd be a buyer?

I think I'll be buying it as long as it comes in around $750 or less.


Let's hope there's not the same Kindle related limitations and delays in getting the product into Canada


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## lister (Apr 3, 2009)

Nope. No plans. Though as an Apple shareholder I hope all the MacHeads buy multiples.


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## moneymusing (Apr 3, 2009)

If they're cheap enough I'll buy a few!

I'm not a shareholder but should be, I'm just an iPhone, macBook user at the moment. The macbook is on its last legs though so it's time to get something new. Apple is really making progress in the retail/home market.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

moneymusing said:


> Let's hope there's not the same Kindle related limitations and delays in getting the product into Canada


I think you can pretty much guarantee that there will be delays and limitations in getting it into Canada. I wouldn't be surprised if we have to wait a couple of years, but I'd love to be wrong about that.

Until a few days ago I was skeptical that Apple would actually announce a tablet and was figuring everyone was wrong, that it would be something else. But there have been enough leaks that it's clear that it's got be a tablet-like device.

I would probably buy one, though I might wait for the second generation so they can get the hardware kinks out first. Apple's quality control is famously erratic, and while I've been using Macs since they first came out in the 1980s I've only had one (my current MacBook Pro) that didn't either come with significant hardware problems out of the box or develop them within the first year or two. 

There are two things that have convinced me that I want to read books electronically: 1) computer books and other books that go out of date almost as soon as you buy them, which seems like such a waste of paper and space on my bookshelf, 2) The Collected Stories of Mavis Gallant, which I'm reading right now: at something like 800 pages, it's just too heavy to read comfortably in bed. ;-)

Obviously this will be a lot more than a book reader, and that's appealing too, mainly for travel.


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## moneymusing (Apr 3, 2009)

Very much agree about the travel aspect Brad. We're travelling south for 3 weeks this spring and I've been debating whether a netbook or tablet would be the best way to go. If the tablet is able to have a pluggable keyboard for extending periods of typing I think it's an easy sell. But often times Apple sacrifices some usability aspects in favour of simplicity of design. This is ok for somethings, like the absence of a "stop" button on the iPod. But also limiting only having one mouse button. 30 years later they caught on somewhat with the magic mouse.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

moneymusing said:


> But also limiting only having one mouse button. 30 years later they caught on somewhat with the magic mouse.


Well, sort of. Two-button mice have always worked with the Mac (I remember using a two-button mouse on my Macs in the early 1990s), and contextual menus just like those with Windows have always been available with a CTRL-click if you were only using a one-button mouse. I've always felt this "limitation" of the Mac was exaggerated.

I agree that a pluggable keyboard would be a great option for this device. We'll know soon enough!


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## moneymusing (Apr 3, 2009)

http://mashable.com/2010/01/27/apple-ipad/

Pics and details are live now.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

My husband will KILL me if I bug him now. Actually this morning I could not send my email and he warned me then that HE IS WATCHING MAC WORLD TODAY!!!!!

I have the new magic mouse or whatever and there are no buttons on it and it works great at least i wont have to rub it on paper every other day. 

He has Mac World running on our TV upstairs. 

Sigh .... boys and their toys 

I will not like it but I am afraid I am doomed to buy the iTablet or any other new Mac gadget. The conversations surrounding this subject will sound like this...

Can I have it Now?
Can I have it Now?
Can I have it Now?

Uhmm it's so expensive and small. You really don't get good weight to cost ratio. I like rice better. I can buy a 20lb bag of rice for $30... now that's impressive. The igadget costs a zillion dollars and it weighs 3 oz. How is that good value? What are they making the igadget out of anyways angel wings and gold crystals?

Can I have it Now?
Can I have it Now?
Can I have it Now?

Ok but only if you quit bugging me.... uhmm can I borrow it


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

The big disappointment is that, yes it has 3G but it's not like Amazon's "free" 3G on the Kindle: if you want to use 3G you have to pay for it through AT&T in the States, which means Rogers here in Canada, which means you're going to have to fork over a boatload of money every month if you want to use that.

On the other hand you can just stick with WiFi; that works fine as long as you've got hotspots.

Other than that, this thing looks awesome and could even replace my Mac if it had more disk space (64 gigs is the largest capacity).

My bet is that the eBooks will only be available in the States for a while (months and possibly years); I'd be surprised if they could negotiate a Canadian deal by now. But like I said, I hope I'm wrong!


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

For me, it is incredible to watch how much buzz Apple creates around its new products. They literally spend nothing on marketing except "Can't talk about it" and the media goes to work for them speculating and debating about what Apple is up to. Other companies can only dream about this kind of publicity, something no amount of money can buy...


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Prices in US dollars:

- 64 GB with 3G: $829. That’s the most expensive. That’s it.

- WiFi only: $499 (16 GB), $599 (32 GB), $699 (64 GB)

- Wifi and 3G: $629, $729, $82

And yes, it comes with a keyboard doc. That makes it even more interesting. They say the international 3G access will come in June; I didn't see anything about eBook availability outside the United States.


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## moneymusing (Apr 3, 2009)

No contracts for 3G Access with AT&T and unlimited data plan available. There's no way either of those things will be true with Rogers. It's not in their nature to provide value to their customers.

I'm fine with the wifi access. Any critical internet could be access via iphone if not near an internet connection (but that's not very often). Keyboard doc is key.

Big question: Are they allowing Adobe in? ie: Can I read PDFs and Flash now? This could be a deal breaker.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

moneymusing said:


> Big question: Are they allowing Adobe in? ie: Can I read PDFs and Flash now? This could be a deal breaker.


They don't need Adobe for reading PDFs: you can do that in Preview on the Mac, and I wouldn't be surprised if they've modified Pages or one of the other apps to handle it if no Adobe product is available. Flash might be a different story.

I don't know what's going on between Adobe and Apple lately -- Adobe's CS4 applications seem to be a disaster on the Mac platform; I have Fireworks and it (and apparently most other CS4 apps) crashes every time I try to exit.


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## Dr_V (Oct 27, 2009)

I may eat my words later, but I can't see the iPad being nearly as "revolutionary" as the iPhone was. I'd consider it "minorly evolutionary" in certain ways, and a step backward in others.

In my view, the physical dimensions of the iPad put it squarely in-line to compete with PC-based netbook offerings. The iPad has the advantage of a certain degree of "sexiness" and (if anything like the iPod Touch or iPhone) a great user interface. But it undoubtedly comes with the disadvantage of flexibility in terms of running apps. (e.g., can it run PC apps, or can I install Linux? Almost certainly neither, whereas I could do that with a netbook.) There is also the question of DRM associated with the book and/or music offerings, and the fact that many of us have sunk a small fortune in Intel-based PC software which could never run on a platform like this.

If anything, I look forward to seeing what Asus and Samsung do to their netbook line-up within the next 2-3 years in response to this device. Apple's competition will almost certainly force these other computer manufacturers to improve the usability of their products and lower their price-points. In turn, everyone will win.


~~~~~
A few other things that get me about the iPad, the more I read about it:

- it has no DVI output (only VGA), which makes it somewhat less useful for giving presentations at conferences
- it has no USB connector (so you can't, for example, connect your digital camera and upload pictures)
- it can't play Flash (though, while not terrible, it's pretty annoying in certain circumstances)
- it basically runs the iphone OS (not OS X)

... so... I don't see this replacing netbooks any time soon.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

recently i've undergone baptism-by-fire in the electronic waste disposal industry, and i've learned a few astonishing facts. Including. There's no e-waste disposal system on this planet that operates both ecologically and profitably. That's why your municipality has to pay to get the stuff hauled away.

if governments pass laws that e-waste must be returned to manufacturers for eco-disposal, the same cycle will recur. The only difference will be that the recyclers will collect e-waste from manufacturers instead of from municipalities.

most enviro e-waste processors in both north america and europe are storing toxic and therefore unrecyclable plastic pellets in the faint hope that some day they will be able to find a buyer. However the probability is high that, as their warehouses run out of space, they will eventually have to bury this unsellable waste in landfill sites.

it's the flame-retardant chemical in tv and computer casings as well as in phone shells that cannot be extracted. So even when crushed & pelletized, the toxic properties keep these pellets out of the recycling stream.

apparently it's easier to harvest metals and minerals from e-waste. Motherboards are the most profitable crop.

for anybody, or any municipality, that wants to go green, the cardinal rule is Do not dispose of the old. Meaning, a lot of times, don't buy the new.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Dr_V said:


> But it undoubtedly comes with the disadvantage of flexibility in terms of running apps. (e.g., can it run PC apps, or can I install Linux? Almost certainly neither, whereas I could do that with a netbook.)


I agree that this isn't a revolutionary product, it's really just a logical next step after the iPhone/iPod Touch. But while it could compete with netbooks to some extent, I don't think it's intended for that; it's appealing to a whole different user group. The kind of people who want to run PC apps or Linux are not the kind of people who would want to use a device like this. This is primarily a lifestyle accessory. And there's a huge base of people who already know how to use it and don't need any instructions: the millions of people who have an iPhone or an iPod Touch.

On the other hand, it's clear that you can do serious work on it too; the iWork suite for the iPad costs just $10, which is practically like getting Microsoft Office for $10. I use the iWork suite on my Mac and it's remarkably feature-rich and intuitive, and almost entirely compatible with MS Office files.

One of the things that Apple understands is context: Most companies make products and software as if it's the only thing you own and you have all the time in the world to learn how to use it. Apple understands that most of us have, if we're lucky, 30 minutes a week available to learn how to use something, and 99% of people don't read instruction manuals. One reason the iPhone is so successful is that you don't have to read a manual to be able to figure out how to use it (although if you do read the manual you'll discover a lot of features that can come in handy), and you can figure out how to use it on the fly.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Well i think that where the innovations are occurring is not just in the use of the huge touch screen but in programming applications that run on this new gadget. 

I have the iPhone which I use primarily for business to be in touch with my office when I am not there to man my office. I even have a few games on it so i can waste time while i am waiting if necessary. 

For those of you unfamiliar with the Ebook industry there are currently a few different reader types that use different formats for their books which are not compatible with other devices. I'm hoping that Apple does for the publishing consumer what he did for the music consumer offer many many books online for a reasonable price. Currently many books are not available or out of print. MAybe we can get some of those into the virtual world so people can read them. 

So it will be very interesting to see what uses we will find for this new device. I have found many uses for my iphone including using it to play cookie monster videos for my 2 year old in the checkout lane of the grocery store it's not usually what you do with a phone. I am also pretty impressed with this new touch screen technology being in common use. Whe knows where this will lead. 

As far as Apple's ease of use and stability I am a fan. I worked in an office that ran Macs that were all networked as our office computers. The youngest computer there was 13 years old and the whole system was very stable and worked. If you were running 13 year old pc's in a network it just wouldn't work. Plus no viruses. I have found the same durability and functionality in other Apple products. 

Oh and my 2 year old, he knows how to use the iphone too  he knows how to find his videos and play music and how to delete my contacts. The iPhone also makes a great baseball. Uhmmm ok not so much but seriously it's that easy to use.


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## steve_jay33 (Aug 29, 2009)

Neat gadget, neat concept.
Once it gets accepted by the general public then I will consider getting the "pc" version


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

steve_jay33 said:


> Neat gadget, neat concept.
> Once it gets accepted by the general public then I will consider getting the "pc" version


Hopefully the PC version will work out better than the Zune did as a PC version of the iPod


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

The youtube spoofs are already coming out; this is by far the best one I've seen so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eF0y0IfpPU


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## steve_jay33 (Aug 29, 2009)

Mac has less than 10% of the market...Windows 90%


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## high octane (Jul 21, 2009)

I travel A LOT currently with an old Laptop

If I was replacing it today, I'd get a Lenovo Laptop Tablet... yea and it's been out for awhile

Mac stuff just annoys me with random things. Lack of compatibility, can't replace the battery, plus I don't care for the styling

For me they're not worth the price. I can figure out electronics without reading much of the manual though


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## Dr_V (Oct 27, 2009)

Humor -- smile


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

steve_jay33 said:


> Mac has less than 10% of the market...Windows 90%


Which is precisely why Macs are cool.


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## takingprofits (Apr 13, 2009)

Hitler responds to the iPad http://youtu.be/lQnT0zp8Ya4 - I have to agree with him on this!


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> For me, it is incredible to watch how much buzz Apple creates around its new products. They literally spend nothing on marketing except "Can't talk about it" and the media goes to work for them speculating and debating about what Apple is up to. Other companies can only dream about this kind of publicity, something no amount of money can buy...


Are they really not paying for it? I wouldn't be surprised if some gifts get passed around.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

brad said:


> I don't know what's going on between Adobe and Apple lately -- Adobe's CS4 applications seem to be a disaster on the Mac platform;


I agree; Abobe CS4 is much more stable and way faster on the PC than on the Mac; my wife does graphic design and she used to use the Mac only; now she uses the Mac for some stuff and we have a Win PC for Adobe CS4.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Dr_V said:


> I may eat my words later, but I can't see the iPad being nearly as "revolutionary" as the iPhone was. I'd consider it "minorly evolutionary" in certain ways, and a step backward in others.
> ....


You won't be the the only one eating then.  I tink when reality meets the hype, this will be something that Mac heads buy (maybe).

BTW, no offense to Mac heads, I consider myself both a Mac and PC lover; love using and developing software that runs on both.


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## craigwilson (Feb 5, 2010)

I mean I would't buy it anyway but if I was considering it I wouldn't go for the basic 499$ model, since it doesn't have the 3G module...And you should be able to connect from everywhere and not rely on WiFi....


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## moneymusing (Apr 3, 2009)

From what I can tell the iPad has another missing feature. Synchronizing with your iPhone or iPod. To synchronize the two devices you will need to connect them both to another computer. Not good....not good.

I might have to stick with my iPad Nano that even makes phone calls!


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

moneymusing said:


> From what I can tell the iPad has another missing feature. Synchronizing with your iPhone or iPod. To synchronize the two devices you will need to connect them both to another computer. Not good....not good!


Not true at all if you have MobileMe (which is ~$100/year but has been worth it for me). The great thing about MobileMe is if you add an entry to your calendar or contacts on one device, it will be automatically updated on your computer and all your other devices within a couple of minutes if you're on WiFi or 3G. 

The base iPad comes with WiFi capabilities, so it can do all this. MobileMe syncs your contacts, calendar, email, bookmarks, notes, preferences, etc. across all your devices: iPod, iPhone, Mac (or PC), iPad. 

Another important thing to keep in mind is the with MobileMe you get a cloud-based iDisk with 20 gigabytes of storage space. This means you can keep all your documents on your iDisk and access them from any device, rather than storing them on the device itself. I've found this really handy on the road: I can access my documents from my iPod touch and read them. This will be even more useful on the iPad with its larger screen and the iWork applications.

I did notice that the Canadian version of the iPad does NOT include the bookstore, and I imagine it could be quite a while before that feature becomes available here.

I'm not going to get an iPad myself, at least not this first generation, as I really don't have any use for it.


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## moneymusing (Apr 3, 2009)

Good to know about MobileMe. Thanks Brad. 
How about songs and applications, does it sync those as well? 

After the initial buzz around the product dies off, I'm thinking about waiting for the next gen myself. They really should be getting the multi-tasking thing going soon, a front facing camera wouldn't kill them either...and how about delivering the full internet experience (aka with flash)


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

moneymusing said:


> Good to know about MobileMe. Thanks Brad.
> How about songs and applications, does it sync those as well?


I don't think iTunes library synchronization would be practical over WiFi and there may be DRM issues associated with that...currently the only way to synchronize is through a physical connection, although you can synchronize playlists via MobileMe.

Some applications can sync their preferences etc. through MobileMe; for example I use Transmit, a nifty FTP program for the Mac, and all my Transmit favorites and settings are synced via MobileMe.

I don't know if Apple will ever add Flash support: Flash seems to be a technology that's on the way out; it's buggy, insecure, and is rapidly being replaced by better technologies. 

I agree about adding a camera, that would be a nice addition!

Multi-tasking could be useful, but I think Apple will resist efforts to turn the iPad into a netbook competitor; it's really a lifestyle accessory like the iPod and I don't think they envision it as a true laptop replacement, at least not in the near future.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I just thought of another use for the IPad...

My 2 year old just pulled all the keys off my laptop... some of the little plastic hinges are still alive but a number of them are forever broken...I cannot buy just the little plastic hinges to repair it. 

The IPad has no keyboard no keys and therefore they can't be taken off 

And yes he can use it....he loves my iphone and he knows how to use that.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> And yes he can use it....he loves my iphone and he knows how to use that.


Nice thing is, if you DON'T want him to use it, you can add a password to it so he can't use it without entering the password first. If you're paranoid about your phone and all its information falling into the wrong hands, you can set it up so all info on your phone (or iPod Touch) is deleted after 10 wrong passwords are entered. But with a two-year-old in the house you probably don't want to do that!


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Yeah he loves typing numbers and we have given him a few calculators to play with. I bet he could manage to type the password ten times in about 30 seconds. I don't really mind him futzing with it except for he has in fact deleted some of my contacts. So that was that. 

I am told that if ever I lose it I can also remote wipe it.


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## takingprofits (Apr 13, 2009)

I have the Ipad Nano and do like it - although the lack of flash support makes it a toy rather than a useful computer-like tool.

Without flash, I can't do the web check in on Westjet when travelling for example. Hardly a day goes by that I discover something else I can't do because of the flash issue.

The vast majority of the web uses flash and that will not change just because Apple does not want to "help" its competitor Adobe. Apple will lose this one. For that reason alone I would not consider the ipad.

Meanwhile, Rim does it all and is much better tool for serious use here and now.


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

I am one who will not rush out and buy this device. I personally this one falls into a no man's land and it may survive solely because it is an *Apple*.

If I want to get all of that functionalities for the same price or even less, I can get a netbook or cheapo laptop. 

Tablet is not a new concept, i think it does a good job in certain situations i.e. nurses/doctors in emergency rooms doing triage/assessment but for the general population, there are better alternatives.

And whatever happens to the pleasure of reading a real book?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

canabiz said:


> Tablet is not a new concept, i think it does a good job in certain situations i.e. nurses/doctors in emergency rooms doing triage/assessment but for the general population, there are better alternatives.


You're thinking of this as a tool for work or for getting things done, which is not at all what Apple has in mind for this device. It's not a laptop replacement and it's not a netbook competitor. It's kind of the anti-netbook, in fact.

This is basically a big iPod Touch, which is a lifestyle accessory. It's something you'd take with you to a cafe or on the train, airplane, or vacation for reading, communicating, and entertainment. 

I have an iPod Touch, and while it's certainly possible to browse the web, read your email, etc. on it, I have to admit the idea of a much larger screen is appealing. And a tablet is more practical and easy for the functions in the iPad than a netbook or laptop is. I find it awkward to use a laptop on an airplane food tray, but my iPod touch is easy to use and to read from. Same would be true for an iPad.

While I agree that the iPad is likely to get a lukewarm reception, possibly only selling a few million units, I think the people who are comparing it to netbooks and laptops are missing the point. This is really just a larger version of the iPod Touch, and it's serving the same markets and purposes as the iPod Touch and the iPhone. Eventually Apple might add enough functionality to make it a laptop replacement, but that doesn't make sense either because it would compete with their profitable laptop line.


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

brad said:


> You're thinking of this as a tool for work or for getting things done, which is not at all what Apple has in mind for this device. It's not a laptop replacement and it's not a netbook competitor. It's kind of the anti-netbook, in fact.
> 
> This is basically a big iPod Touch, which is a lifestyle accessory.* It's something you'd take with you to a cafe or on the train, airplane, or vacation for reading, communicating, and entertainment. *
> 
> ...


That is another aspect which will no doubt come into consideration: security. 

The Ipod or Iphone is small enough to stay on your belt or pocket but the iPad will definitely stand out. It is no different than your typical laptop or netbook you may say and you can carry it in your backpack but it is definitely a target for theft and God forbid if you drop it.

Your points are well-taken brad. I just think that if I want to travel, i want to bring the least amount of gears that will yield the most amount of productivity. Herein comes the laptop. I will also throw in the obligatory camera and iPhone but for things like the tablet, i am still not sure where it will fit in my luggage


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

My sister lives in Boston and bought an iPad; she was up here visiting us for the weekend so I got to check it out.

It really is just like a big iPod Touch or iPhone; the main improvements I could see were that reading books and websites is a great experience (even better than on my laptop) and same goes for photos. We had a contractor here on Saturday for some renovation work in our bathroom, and he showed us photos on his iPhone of previous projects he'd done. I kept thinking how much more effective those photos would be on an iPad, and I bet contractors and interior designers will probably be a big market for iPads.

I liked playing around with the iPad, but it basically confirmed my impression that it's not something I really need or even want at this point.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm interested to see the sales when it is released in Canada. It's a big hit in the U.S.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm really impressed with Apple's marketing genius. My hubby is a Mac fan boy so I hear all the news and I am noticing some interesting trends.

Every time a little ahead of the product launch they is always a leak and the technology press goes crazy. 

This time the new IPhone was accidentally "left" at a bar and Gizmodo bought it off the guy who found it. 

Then there are always the "product shortages". The IPhone had these exact same problems. Now they are delaying the launch of the IPad for the exact same reason. Next there will be press about the lineups mark my words. Before the IPad comes out people will be lining up to get it because there's a "shortage" Then it makes it on to the news. Then people think oh this must be a great thing look people are lining up so they go line up too. 

I really admire whoever is behind this marketing, they get tons of free press. It's too coincidental that these same kinds of things keep happening every time a new product is launched. 

As for the Ipad I dan't think we are even close to the uses for this thing, I think they will also be widely used in industry. I was thinking today they would be very nice for inventory control at a fraction of the cost of the usual devices. I was watching a video today of a DJ using a couple IPads instead of the usual expensive DJ equipment. Time will tell.


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## CuriousReader (Apr 3, 2009)

FrugalTrader said:


> It's a big hit in the U.S.


What you wonder is that if the device is really good and useful ... or is it just a big hype and that people buy it "just because it's Apple's" ..

Surely I can see how iPad would be very handy for some people who needs it, but I am sure a big percentage of the buyers fall to the latter category, they got one just because it's the latest trendy thing from Apple.

Multitask & Flash support are 2 big things that are still missing from such a hyped device. But Apple always have the advantage because of the brand, regardless of the actual technological value of the product.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

CuriousReader said:


> Multitask & Flash support are 2 big things that are still missing from such a hyped device. But Apple always have the advantage because of the brand, regardless of the actual technological value of the product.


Multitask is coming in July with the new OS update. Apple has said it's not supporting Flash because it's buggy and causes security problems.

I do think some of the iPad's popularity is due to hype; I know a few people who bought one in the excitement of the moment and now regret their purchase because they don't really use it. But others are raving about it and believe it'll be a viable new platform. We'll see how it all shakes out.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

And we wonder why our landfills are brimming with electronic waste.

And we wonder why people are not saving their money and planning for rainy day and retirement.

And we wonder why taxes are so high.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree with you royal-mail but I think that applies more to PC's and general cheaply-made electronics

People who buy Mac electronics use it longer because the new stuff looks Exactly the same and it's built of aluminum/glass vs plastic. I don't see people throwing out Macs like they throw out PCs. Macs have more thought put into them rather than constantly putting out new devices

Lots of people constantly buy/upgrade their cameras, navigation systems, portable game systems, cell phones. The iPhone does pretty much all of it better for a longer life span

I'll get the new OS and my iPhone will be perfectly fine for me even with the new phone out

I also agree the "iPhone lost in a bar" is a blatant publicity stunt. But I also think that mac really has something in quality that you can only understand if you use it

I only own an iPhone and I agree people who get obsessed with buying all the Mac stuff probably aren't saving as much as they should.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I'll get the new OS and my iPhone will be perfectly fine for me even with the new phone out


I actually don't think the new iPhone OS will be compatible with older iPhones; I checked and it's not going to be compatible with my second-generation iPod Touch, for example. So you might be out of luck in that regard.

I've been using Macs since 1987 and started using Windows as well around 1999 or 2000 -- to be honest even though I'm a Mac fan I don't see any difference in longevity or build quality between Macs and PCs, so I don't agree that Macs last longer. In fact every single Mac I've owned except for my current MacBook Pro has either come with or developed significant hardware problems within the first few years. The most reliable computers I've owned have been the Lenovo (formerly IBM) ThinkPads; I've had three or four of them and they last forever, rarely developing hardware problems. All the problems were related to Windows, but Windows 7 seems to be less prone to instability over time.

It is possible to extend the life of your computer equipment (I still have a circa 2002 Apple PowerBook that I've repurposed to serve as our television, for example), but most people don't hang onto electronics very long because new and improved models come out so frequently. After seeing several TV shows and reading articles about the computer recycling industry, I try to keep my computers as long as possible and think hard about every new hardware purchase.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

From the Mac website


> iPhone OS 4 will work with iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS, and the second- and third-generation iPod touch


If not, I would just jailbreak the thing but I would rather have the legit OS 4. I have Skype and VoIP working for pennies a call but notifications of incoming calls is not enough. I also want to listen to streaming music in the background...


I'll take your word that they don't last any longer and the irony is I'm not a Mac fan! I actually still use my university computer from 2002 as a media server and I recently replaced my working 2006 Toshiba laptop with an i7 Sony Vaio solid state HD. I also think long and hard before replacing hardware

I couldn't justify paying more than double for a MacBook Pro with half the specs and not even a HDMI port (which was the main reason I wanted a new laptop). Seems to me the main reason to buy a Mac is the build quality, why else do you pay that much?

I was thinking of buying a GPS, a camera, a Sony PSP etc so the $500 I paid for a used-new-in-box iPhone has maybe been the best $500 ever spent.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting responses, brad and sour.

I guess since all the stuff I've been hearing about, with that huge slew of plastic in the ocean and fish ingesting plastic and the numerous other computer disposal problems, I'm trying to be very careful about not buying un-necessary electronic stuff. Truthfully though, it's very hard to avoid. For instance, last year my Canon printer of 12 years bit the dust. After spending a lot of time and searching online to try and fix it myself, I had to give up and buy a new laser printer for $100. It has performed very well and I hope to get 12 years out of this one, too. 

My point though, is that in the corner is the ol' BJC-250 gathering dust and made mostly of plastic I felt really guilty for having this thing. I eventually brought it along with a few other boxes of old computers and cables to an e-waste depot.

Remember, the 3 Rs of recycling (in order) are REDUCE, reuse and recycle.

I think we could all help the planet and animal life and ecosystem by simply consuming less and resisting the temptation to keep buying the latest instrument. Tomorrow, a newer and better one will be out. You can never really stay ahead anyway.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I totally agree

But I don't think you can expect people to use 12 year old printers

Electronics are designed to wear out fast and be replaced by better technology. It's marketing based on profits

I would rather see people pressure the government to regulate this marketing BS than stop buying new technology and thereby slow technology.

To go back to the iPad, they are purposely releasing it with a small hard drive and less features so that they can re-release it with bigger-better feature over and over.

I don't understand the mentality to never buy something new because something newer will always come out. Technology is a good thing I just research what it coming and buy at an appropriate time

There could easily be more advanced electronics available today, built to actually last and be upgraded with less waste. People would also have a better mentality towards saving in this case I bet

You can't expect businesses to willingly lose profits and you can't expect people to just not buy stuff.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I totally agree
> 
> But I don't think you can expect people to use 12 year old printers
> 
> Electronics are designed to wear out fast and be replaced by better technology. It's marketing based on profits


Personally, I'm still using a HP 5L printer that I bought used close to 11 years ago. With the limited amount of printing I've done, I've bought a total of one toner. It still works fine and I have no plans to replace it with something newer and faster. Likewise, I still have a P3 desktop from the same era that I use. Generally electronics can last pretty long as long as you treat them right as there is limited mechanical wear and tear.



mode3sour said:


> I would rather see people pressure the government to regulate this marketing BS than stop buying new technology and thereby slow technology.
> 
> To go back to the iPad, they are purposely releasing it with a small hard drive and less features so that they can re-release it with bigger-better feature over and over.


Basically, you're saying they should come out with one model and never change it. I can see why this doesn't work. For one, some electronic components may become cheaper over time to make it viable to include a larger hard drive in a year. Same with computer processors.

Similar to that are the netbooks that ASUS came out with. With the 7" model, some found it useful, others didn't. For example I was interested, but didn't find the use for them at the time. Then with the 9" model came out, I found it more viable to use. Now the 10" is out there which is cheaper, larger, longer battery life and faster than what I paid for mine a year earlier. Am I upset? A bit, though they also changed 2 key features that made it appealing to me: SSD isn't a standard feature (or you have to upgrade for a price), and they don't readily offer Linux out of the box.

In the end, do I really care that I "missed out" on the biggest and greatest? No, since what I have is what I wanted and need.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Planned obsolescence is a real pet peeve of mine as well. I have it on good notice that there is a move afoot to add a new letter to the alaphabet... from 26 letters to 27! The printer manufacturers are (naturally) behind the move.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> Personally, I'm still using a HP 5L printer that I bought used close to 11 years ago. With the limited amount of printing I've done, I've bought a total of one toner. It still works fine and I have no plans to replace it with something newer and faster. Likewise, I still have a P3 desktop from the same era that I use. Generally electronics can last pretty long as long as you treat them right as there is limited mechanical wear and tear.


I'm gonna guess that, like planning for retirement, members of this board are also money-savvy with electronics compared to the average joe

Seems to me a lot of people find it cheaper to buy a new printer than to buy new ink. Sly marketing once again



bgc_fan said:


> Basically, you're saying they should come out with one model and never change it. I can see why this doesn't work. For one, some electronic components may become cheaper over time to make it viable to include a larger hard drive in a year. Same with computer processors.
> 
> Similar to that are the netbooks that ASUS came out with. With the 7" model, some found it useful, others didn't. For example I was interested, but didn't find the use for them at the time. Then with the 9" model came out, I found it more viable to use. Now the 10" is out there which is cheaper, larger, longer battery life and faster than what I paid for mine a year earlier. Am I upset? A bit, though they also changed 2 key features that made it appealing to me: SSD isn't a standard feature (or you have to upgrade for a price), and they don't readily offer Linux out of the box.
> 
> In the end, do I really care that I "missed out" on the biggest and greatest? No, since what I have is what I wanted and need.


I'm not saying they should never upgrade anything! I'm saying that it's more about marketing schemes than it is about technological development

They constantly try to change electronics as much as possible, when really a lot of the changes are just marketing

In most devices, including the iPad, they charge a premium for extra HD space that is readily available on the market for cheaper

When I bought a PS3, I could pay an extra $100 for an extra 40 GB or I could buy a 500 GB for less and ditch the smaller HD


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I'm gonna guess that, like planning for retirement, members of this board are also money-savvy with electronics compared to the average joe
> 
> Seems to me a lot of people find it cheaper to buy a new printer than to buy new ink. Sly marketing once again


True, in most cases it would be more "cost-effective" to buy a new, cheaper printer than new ink. This pertains more to cheaper and inkjet printers though. Toner for laser printers don't have the same problem of ink drying up.



mode3sour said:


> In most devices, including the iPad, they charge a premium for extra HD space that is readily available on the market for cheaper
> 
> When I bought a PS3, I could pay an extra $100 for an extra 40 GB or I could buy a 500 GB for less and ditch the smaller HD


Looking at the Apple Store I see the following prices:
WiFi: 16 GB $499, 32 GB $599, 64 GB $699
WiFi+3G: 16 GB $629, 32 GB $729, 64 $829.

Considering that it is using flash technology and not hard drive tech, the price points are fairly reasonable. Looking at Amazon.com, a 64GB SSD drive will run about $150 or so. The PS3 was the exception, they designed it to be easily upgradeable for the user, unlike the XBox where you would have to buy a proprietary HD from MS.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence



> The process wastes resources and exploits customers. Resources are used up making changes, often cosmetic changes, that are not of great value to the customer.





> Technological improvements are not introduced even though they could be. Marketers will refrain from developing new products, or postpone their introduction





> An example is home entertainment electronics which tend to be designed and built with moving components like motors and gears that last until technical or stylistic innovations make them obsolete.





> Inkjet printer manufacturers who employ proprietary smart chips in their ink cartridges to prevent them from being used after a certain threshold (number of pages, time, etc), even though the cartridge may still contain usable ink or could be refilled.





> Creating new lines of products that do not interoperate with older products





> Even though an older version of a word processing program is operating correctly, it might not be able to read data saved by newer versions.



At least Mac is innovative with their "planned obsolescence"



> A famous case of this was the 'Click Wheel' Apple iPod, which many consumers found to fail within 18 months of purchase.





> A manufacturer can set the algorithms of the IC of a battery to be ultra conservative or time/cycle based, rather than based around the physical properties of the battery cells; this artificially limits the life of the battery.


With the iPad Mac claims they will replace it if the battery dies. So I'm guessing it has better batteries than the iPods did!


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

This is getting way OT. I'm not sure if this threat should be moved somewhere else.

As fun as Wikipedia is, the quality of the articles can be lacking. This one is particularly bad. The authors are just making terms up, I mean "Notification Obsolescence"? That just makes no sense: shaving blades have to be replaced, ink cartridges will run dry over time, it's not really something manufacturers can control. "Style Obsolescence"? By their nature, fashion trends are transitory depending on the prevailing views of the public.

As for the iPod "Click" issue, we joke all the time about electronics failing when the warranty ends, but it's usually the exception rather than the rule.

The only quote that I agree with is that the changes are usually cosmetic, and of little value. In any case, my view is that for the most part planned obsolescence is just an excuse for consumers to blame big business for their own consumption. As I pointed out with my example of the Asus eeePCs. When the 10" version came out, did the original 7" versions suddenly stop working? Did they lose their usefulness? Maybe they aren't the newest and fastest, but unless you have the mentality of keeping up with the Jones', why should you care?

As for batteries, that's a bit of an issue. Apple is quite protective of its IP and ensure that replacement batteries are controlled by Apple. But when you buy an Apple product, you know what you're getting into. There are always other options, Kindle, MP3 players, PCs, smartphones, etc. It's not like Apple has any sort of monopoly on any products.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> And we wonder why our landfills are brimming with electronic waste.
> 
> And we wonder why people are not saving their money and planning for rainy day and retirement.
> 
> And we wonder why taxes are so high.


If you agree this has to do with the iPad, then so does "planned obsolescence" 

I don't see why a Wikipedia author can't make a term up like "notification obsolescence" Does it have to be a published term to have a meaning or something? The razors indication strip obviously changes color before it's worn. You've never used a device that told you it's time to change the filter?

As a person who frugally uses your devices as long as possible, you don't wish it was designed to last?

People "consume" because of planned obsolescence and the fact that it brings down the sale price etc


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> If you agree this has to do with the iPad, then so does "planned obsolescence"
> 
> I don't see why a Wikipedia author can't make a term up like "notification obsolescence" Does it have to be a published term to have a meaning or something? The razors indication strip obviously changes color before it's worn. You've never used a device that told you it's time to change the filter?


I can make up the word Zblate and write a Wikipedia article that describes in detail how it refers to an unknown species of penguins, but that doesn't make it right. Sure, I use Brita water filters. The point is these things are meant to be replaced on a regular basis, there's nothing nefarious planned by the companies that sell them. Disposable razor blades get dull with use and aren't meant to be sharpened, ink cartridges do get used up and will dry out if not used on a regular basis, and over time filters do have a decrease in filtration efficiency. 

Now if you want to use these examples as examples of waste due to a disposable society as opposed to planned obsolescence, that's another issue. 



mode3sour said:


> As a person who frugally uses your devices as long as possible, you don't wish it was designed to last?
> 
> People "consume" because of planned obsolescence and the fact that it brings down the sale price etc


For me, planned obsolescence is a more narrow term, similar to the article's definition of technical obsolescence, meaning that unless version x.2 somehow invalidates and makes version x.1 useless, it's not planned obsolescence. The reasoning of why people consume seems more than off. Some people just purchase the latest and greatest because of either status or marketing. Let's take a look at cell phones. I have an old Nokia that's at least 5 years old. What do I do with it? Make and receive phone calls which it does as well as any modern phone. Somehow even with the new and expensive models, my phone still works and I don't feel any pressure to "upgrade" to a new model. People consume due to their personal wants and desires, even with marketing the final decision is up to the consumer, not to the company that goes with the incremental upgrades in features.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I understand but disagree that companies don't plan this. Technology companies are the absolute worst for making cheap crap that breaks or burns out, compelling the consumer to spend more money to buy a newer device with all sorts of features.

Take cameras for instance. Before digital, I was using a 30 year old Japanese manual SLR. Built like a tank and worked beautifully. I spent $1200 on a DSLR in 2005 (gasp, 6.1 MP) and today no one will look at it because they want the latest one with 13MP and being marketed to the hilt. In 2 years they'll be looking for another one, to keep up with their friends who bought theirs after him, and have better models. This is ridiculous. Years ago people didn't buy a new camera every 2 years. But anything in the computer/electronic rhealm and suddenly people aren't concerned with longevity anymore. That's curious when you consider the cost of these things.

I have and still use a 512MB ipod shuffle I got for Christmas in 2005. I don't dare show this thing in public - people would laugh. Yet, the walkman this thing replaced served me well for 10 solid years, with NO social stigma until the advent of the ipod and the new generation of portable electronic music players came along. What electronic gadget purchased today will be seen as socially acceptable for 10 years? Who still uses a Palm Pilot? Those things were all the rage back in 1998-99. $600!

fan, I'm glad to hear you are still using your 5 year old cell phone. However, you are doing well and resisting the powerful marketing and buzz associated with these devices. It seems most people are unaware or don't care that they're conditioned to be consumers in a hamster wheel. Spend, spend, spend.

"Each day, North Americans throw away more than 385,000 cellphones and 143,000 computers-- electronic waste is now the fastest-growing stream of garbage. Lead and mercury are seeping from this waste into ground water."

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=9b6ec29f-764f-45d4-a36b-1c5f285d11d8http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=9b6ec29f-764f-45d4-a36b-1c5f285d11d8

The way for all of us to stop the growth of this ecological disaster is to resist the powerful buzz to keep buying more electronic junk. Start NOW. Buying more, means what you have now goes in the corner and ultimately in the landfill and in the food we eat. Scary stuff, and I'm not even a greenie or any kind of a lobbyist. Just someone concerned about what's happening.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I understand but disagree that companies don't plan this. Technology companies are the absolute worst for making cheap crap that breaks or burns out, compelling the consumer to spend more money to buy a newer device with all sorts of features.


But that's my point. The vast majority of electronics will last for quite a while, assuming that you aren't mistreating it. Again, I'm a data point of one, so it's just anecdotal, but I find that most electronics will last at least 5 years. I can't really say more because that's about how long I've had most stuff.



the-royal-mail said:


> the computer/electronic rhealm and suddenly people aren't concerned with longevity anymore. That's curious when you consider the cost of these things.


Again, this has nothing to do with planned obsolescence. It's more about marketing and peer pressure. 



the-royal-mail said:


> I have and still use a 512MB ipod shuffle I got for Christmas in 2005. I don't dare show this thing in public - people would laugh. Yet, the walkman this


As I said, that's just marketing/peer pressure. As you pointed out, it still works and it probably will for a number of years. Just because there are newer models, yours didn't suddenly become useless. Personally, I'm using a 1 GB Creative Labs MP3 player from 2004 and I feel comfortable with it. In fact it has some nice features, such as voice recording, FM receiver, and uses AAA batteries (I just bought some generic rechargeables). I don't see a reason why I'd want to replace it. 



the-royal-mail said:


> socially acceptable for 10 years? Who still uses a Palm Pilot? Those things were all the rage back in 1998-99. $600!


In this case, it's more of a case where cell phone technology evolved to take the place of the Pilot. I doubt Palm was trying to make itself obsolete with its offerings.



the-royal-mail said:


> The way for all of us to stop the growth of this ecological disaster is to resist the powerful buzz to keep buying more electronic junk. Start NOW. Buying more, means what you have now goes in the corner and ultimately in the landfill and in the food we eat. Scary stuff, and I'm not even a greenie or any kind of a lobbyist. Just someone concerned about what's happening.


Fair enough. basically what I'm gathering is that you're considering planned obsolescence as a social thing rather than technological. So that it's just a marketing tool to sell and feed the consumer society. Personally, I find it more of a reflection of society rather than big business trying to screw the consumer.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting discussion! Thanks for your comments. I think it's all of the above. Companies keep making things bigger and better and this generates marketing and buzz activity and maybe even some free publicity. It definitely affects consumer behaviour IMO and so we end up in a vicious circle.

If the stuff is so great, why are we throwing away millions of cell phones every single month? Remember these were the cutting edge things of yesterday, which caused people to run red lights and cause traffic problems. Now they're creating more problems.

I must apologize to the OP as I really hijacked this thread. I think I'm going to start a new thread to discuss how we can be better citizens of the planet. This discussion is definitely the sort of thing people need to be considering. Seems that the tech consumers are very short sighted and unable to see they're just spinning in a hamster wheel. 'Good enough' and concern for the planet and world around them (as well as their own pocket book!) never seem to figure into anyone's minds when they are considering purchases of this stuff.

That's all.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Well not every one is like me and I like my gadgets, they make my life easier, make my business portable and keep me in touch. 

I do not upgrade unless there are significant advances that make it worthwhile. 

My TV runs off a computer that runs off an antennae that records digital TV for free on local stations, this save me 80$ per month for cable. Then I have access to many different shows from other countries. This gets me major brownie points with my babysitter who is English as we record Cracker for her and put it on a DVD. I can get almost any movie for free. Plus I have software that strips out all the commercials. 

Then there is my computer I bought off of craigslist for $850 an Imac with a 20 inch screen that was selling for $1700 in the store. My stupid Windows computer had been nursed along for several years on life support. The thing crashed at every inopportune time possible. 

I used to have to bring three different books to every appointment, and address book, a map book and a note book. Now I bring the Iphone and that's it. I also used to have the newspaper delivered now I read Bloomberg on my phone. 

So I have saved a lot of trees and avoided paying Rogers for Cable. Technology has saved me time and money. I'm not sure if you remember before computers but there used to be large offices devoted to the typing of documents only. I wonder how much paper was wasted because of one wrong finger placement. 

We have fridges that work on a tenth of the power, and cars that run on half the gas with far less pollution. Technology is good for the environment.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

yeah, when you fail to account for all the pollution created in designing, manufacturing, marketing, shipping, all those new devices and products....

longevity and declining population are they keys to a better environment...


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## canabiz (Apr 4, 2009)

I played with one on Friday and do not see this device fitting anywhere into my lifestyle. I sure could find better use for the amount of money that I am supposed to shell out for this glorified netbook with a famous logo.


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