# Concentration camps in China



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

According to reports from media outlets in different countries, China has built large scale concentration camps specifically for an ethnic minority group (Muslim Uighurs). The Chinese government monitors the ethnic group, tracks their movements using smart phones and facial recognition, and imprisons huge numbers (between 1 - 3 million) in the concentration camps. The state calls them re-education camps or training schools.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-in-concentration-camps-us-says-idUSKCN1S925K
https://www.voanews.com/extremism-watch/prominent-uighur-writer-dies-chinese-internment-camp
https://www.dw.com/en/former-muslim-prisoner-in-china-describes-xinjiang-detention/av-47865162
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMkHcZ5IwjU

I'm honestly shocked by how little I hear about this. Does anyone care?

I'll bet this is what it was like as the world watched the first Jewish Germans get detained in concentration camps in the 1930s. People elsewhere in the world shrug, partly because it's far away, and partly because they dislike the people who are suffering. Antisemitism was rampant in both the US and Canada in the 1930s and the countries did not want to accept Jews. Similarly today, there is widespread anti-Muslim sentiment and racism expressed in US and Europe... everywhere from the US President himself, to popular media outlets (Fox News) and European political parties.

Obviously, Nazi atrocities towards Jews were far more severe, but there's still a parallel here. It's given me some insight into how people turned their backs on Jewish suffering in Europe. One looks back after several decades and says "how could people not have done something" but I think it's pretty clear how this happens.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

OK, it does seem that Canada has been vocal about the camps: Canada reportedly spearheaded a letter initiative expressing concern about Uyghurs camps



> A move spearheaded by Canada that enlisted global allies in an effort to rebuke Beijing for its repression and surveillance of Muslim populations in Xinjiang is being criticized by the Chinese leadership.
> . . .
> "As part of the Universal Periodic Review, Canada called on China to release Uyghurs and other Muslims who have been detained arbitrarily and without due process due to their ethnicity or religion," Global Affairs Canada said in a statement.
> . . .
> The letter to the Chinese government has not been made public, but Reuters said it was signed by 15 Western ambassadors, including the *Canadian, British, French, Swiss, European Union, German, and Australian envoys*.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the crisis of sub-standard forced incarceration - concentration camps - fills the world these days. Refugees. There are millions more refugees on the planet today than there were at the end of WW II.

refugee camp conditions can be appalling. Rohingya refugees from myanmar seeking shelter in already-poverty-stricken bangladesh probably live in worse conditions than china has imposed upon their muslim minority.

what to do? no party in canada, campaigning for election this october, has announced shutting the door on refugees. So canadians are more or less united on that issue. We need to continue with our refugee program, improve our refugee program, set canada forth as a model country when it comes to refugee relief, shut the border door firmly against the crowds of walk-ins from new york state or from any other bordering US state.

we are a small country here so our total refugee admission program will never count statistically as a big drawdown from the growing refugee camps. But we can set our example forth, call upon other countries to undertake their fair share.

working to end the local wars & disruptions which trigger the refugee migrations is another campaign that canada is good at.

bref we have excellent programs already in place, let us support them including their necessary limitations. There is no way canada can take on responsibility for the planet.

i'm not sure about the wisdom of the above-mentioned letter. China is a newish beast on the world stage, very difficult to handle. I'd have to see the actual letter that was signed by all those ambassadors first; in the meantime i'm assuming that it was positive, persuasive & diplomatic, therefore a good move. 

global opinion does matter, even if it causes some mlitant nations to initially become enraged. Remember how Laureen Harper, when her husband was prime minister, worked with other leading women in other countries to prevent iran from stoning a female prisoner to death. Only yesterday it was announced that saudi arabia had narrowly missed beheading a teenager for "political crimes of protest" that the youth had allegedly committed while still a child aged only 10 years. The kingdom stopped the execution following reproaches from other countries.

it's a question of constant water wearing away stone. If countries keep on reminding china that the uigyar muslim camps are on the world's radar, are continuously being monitored, china is a nation that will pay attention, i do believe.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

If you look around the world or back in history, you will virtually never find a "benevolent dictator" that lasted very long. A single person or party with absolute power that actually was/is fair and honest with its citizens. That is not because they were never born or no one person/party ever wanted to help their country or citizen's. It is because their citizens would rarely allow it.

In any government, you will find disagreement among its citizens. We call that politics. This board has proven how little we ever really agree with each other. In a democracy, if a citizen gets upset with their government, they can go to work and hopefully throw them out at the next election. The only way citizen's can do that in a dictatorship is with a coup. Usually a violent coup. Since we know in advance that the people will never totally agree with anything that anyone would ever suggest, as evidenced even here on this board, the risk of that coup in a dictatorship is extremely high. The only exceptions to this, that I have seen, are the times where the leader is viewed more as a spiritual leader as opposed to a government leader, and even then benevolence is rare.

So my point is, that the only way a dictatorship can ever be maintained, for any length of time, is through violence and persecution. You kind of can't have one without the other. Whenever you see some smiling king waiving at his/her cheering subjects, you need to know, that in the background, some evil things MUST be happening. It is the only way it can be maintained. From the King's point of view the violence probably started out with the unravelling of some treasonous activity that was found out early in their reign, and therefore their violent reaction gets justified in their minds, but that activity could also be predicted very early in advance. People just don't agree with each other. Not sure why. 

So when these things, like J4B has linked to, are found out, they should never surprise you. The only way to have freedom is through democracy. If you don't have democracy, you can never have freedom. It is kind of a law of human interaction.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I agree that these things aren't surprising... useful thoughts above. Still, looking at the most significant acute crises today, there's a pattern:

- The Myanmar government is engaging in mass killings & rapes of the Rohingya Muslim population
- China runs concentration camps and specifically targets their Muslim population, to the tune of millions of people
- Ongoing war in Syria has sent ~ 10 million refugees running for their lives, living in poverty. Mostly Muslim
- Yemen is facing endless war and now famine, approx 10-20 million Muslims

It looks to me like Muslim groups around the world have become some of the most down trodden and oppressed people in the current age. There are different causes for each of the above humanitarian disasters but I think there is a common thread here... and that's that world powers (lets say US and Europe) don't particularly care to assist Muslims.

Through years of racist government policies, America (and increasingly Europe) have come to see this religious group as sub-human and somewhat disposable. It's just not a big deal to people.

Very similar to how the western world ignored the plight of Jews worldwide. Just a new century and a new racist theme.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Perhaps, but as I said, unless the world decides to attack all non-democracies, which we know will not happen, I think you will find most governments will turn a blind eye to this stuff. It becomes politically difficult to juggle. We want something done, but very little can be done without incurring serious pain on our part. Pain derived from various sanctions or out right war. Sanctions usually are in the form of trade. We either go without their desirable stuff or lose them as a customer. I won't bother mentioning the downside of war.

I can't comment on whether Muslims are being persecuted unfairly more then others. As I said, if you have a dictatorship AND you allow your citizens the freedom to assemble, talk, even think negative thoughts about your regime, they will eventually decide to and organize your overthrow. That is what is guaranteed to happen all coming from basic human behavior. So if you want to have a long reign, and you have seen this in just about any long reigning dictatorial society, you need to shut down almost all freedoms that we take for granted. You need to not only stop your citizens from talking negative talk but optimally stop them from even thinking negative thoughts. This is done by controlling, education, media, the courts and creating a tattle-tale society to turn in the offenders before they can even organize their own thoughts.

If you don't do most of that, your regime will be doomed. There are other things you should do, that are nasty as well (secret police and elimination of underlings that are starting to gain power and a following, etc. including religious figures) but those are a good start. 

Anyway, perhaps Muslims are falling afoul of those things I mentioned above more then the average person. I cannot say.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Actually I think it's more sinister than just US and Europe _ignoring_, or not seeing these things as a big deal.

I think the anti-Muslim racism that's well rooted in US & Europe (which is related to antisemitism -- not new) is leading to policy actions where these world powers deliberately sit by and allow the atrocities to occur. At the same time, in their own countries, these governments keep demonizing and abusing the population.

For example, a European politician who's foaming at the mouth about "sending the Muslims back where they came from!" is never going to endanger their own trade and business relationships with a dictatorial regime who's massacring Muslims. Nor would they ever cut back on defense endeavours (which create local jobs and wealthy military contractors) just out of concern for Muslim refugees.

These are policy decisions with underlying racism and hatred of Muslims.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I agree with you. As I said, a politician looks at the push and pull of any issue. The push comes from the outcry of the voting public and the pull is the backlash that comes along after their response. In the case of a dictator, there is probably very little a politician can do anyway, especially one governing Canada and they would worry that the backlash they would receive, after their actions were implemented, would swamp the small amount of outcry that is currently coming from their voters. 

That reduced outcry is the real problem and what is validating your point about Muslims, and historically every other persecuted race, religion, gender or sexual preference. It is the voter outcry that gets the politician to act, not the problem itself.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> I'm honestly shocked by how little I hear about this. Does anyone care?


Yeah, China is creepy for sure. Communist/Socialist regimes seem to like to label these places as _"re-education centers"_.

I see the BBC has been given rare access to the vast system of highly secure facilities thought to be holding more than a million Muslims in China’s western region of Xinjiang. Authorities there insist they are just training schools.

Claiming, _"These aren't prisoners, they're students. They are affected by religious extremism. Our purpose is to get rid of their extremist thoughts"._

Inside China's 'thought transformation' camps video:

BBC video - Inside China's 'thought transformation' camps.

ltr


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks for posting that like_to_retire. Very creepy. Maybe Hollywood should stop making these movies about dystopian futures... it's probably giving them ideas.

Here's the same video:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Look at what is going on in the US detention camps at the US/Mexico border.

America has lost all credibility to tell others how to act, until the corrupt Trump regime is overturned.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> the crisis of sub-standard forced incarceration - concentration camps - fills the world these days. Refugees. There are millions more refugees on the planet today than there were at the end of WW II.
> 
> refugee camp conditions can be appalling. Rohingya refugees from myanmar seeking shelter in already-poverty-stricken bangladesh probably live in worse conditions than china has imposed upon their muslim minority.
> 
> ...


The issue is that if you're in the US, you're not a refugee. Despite all the rhetoric, the US is a safe country with a fair judiciary etc.
If you made it to the US, apply for refugee status there.
You hear about lots of law enforcement problems, but that's because everyone knows the injustices that do happen are problems.


We're not a big country, but to suggest we can't have an impact is insulting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48696974

Canada has traditionally resettled a LOT of refugees and takes in a lot of immigration. 

The problem with the latest controversy is people who aren't really fleeing just walking across the border, and the failure of our government to do proper screening.

People have legitimate concerns with being able to properly handle and support the people coming into our country. Rather than address them, some would prefer to level charges of discrimination, which is counter productive.

The issue in the US has become highly political because both sides think they can score points on it, and that's making the situation worse. 

As far as internal politics, that's touchy. China won't listen, and most countries consider it inappropriate to comment on internal issues.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Look at what is going on in the US detention camps at the US/Mexico border.
> 
> America has lost all credibility to tell others how to act, until the corrupt Trump regime is overturned.


I don't like Trump, but you can't blame the US/Mexico border crisis on him.
It's been a crisis for a long time, but they don't have the political will to fix it, and he's trying.

The issue has become overly politicized and that's getting in the way of a solution.

Just because you don't like a politician doesn't mean the country has lost all credibility. 
Trump is an arrogant %@%[email protected]#. But so is Trudeau.
I don't think either one is really suited to run a country, but we get who we get.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I don't like Trump, but you can't blame the US/Mexico border crisis on him.



no other US president has ever repeatedly referred to mexicans as drug dealers, rapists & diseased the way donald trump has, so i believe it's fair to blame him for making a chronic problem much worse






> Trump is an arrogant %@%[email protected]#. But so is Trudeau.
> 
> I don't think either one is really suited to run a country, but we get who we get.



justin trudeau isn't an arrogant anything. I agree he often sounds preacherish in english. He sounds a lot more down-to-earth in french but this forum doesn't hear that. I'm surprised that Sophie or someone hasn't taught the PM to modify the preacherly tone in english. Bet his kids do the roll-eyes if he starts with the preacher at the breakfast table ...

trudeau has run the country just fine, given the extreme challenges of the global geopolitick. Nobody else could have finessed the lunatic in the white house as well as trudeau, freeland & Co.

unemployment is at multi-decades record lows. The tech sector in quebec is booming. Microsoft is building its global artificial intelligence research lab in ... mile end district montreal. Just east of U de M's Ecole Polytechnique, where AI reserch is booming. Microsoft isn't building in california or oregon or massachusetts but in another country, ie as far away from donald trump as possible.

same story with Solactive the german fintech when they set up a north american HQ recently. Not in new york city. Solactive chose toronto for its NA expansion.

ren zhengfei, huawei's founder & CEO, has indicated he'd like to build big research campuses in at least four major canadian cities. Says he wants to be near "brilliant" canadian universities, close to canadian leadership in artificial intelligence. His plans are on hold at the moment because canada is still mulling how far canada will let huawei & its 5G into the country.

these major foreign companies are avoiding the US & choosing to settle instead in nearby canada for a reason. Actually, a couple of reasons: 1) get close to canadian talent & strong economy; 2) stay away from donald trump & his erratic, unstable trade wars.

the liberal party in power accomplished the above ^^ good news for canada. In four short years. Harper in all his years of gummint did not come close.

.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Plus........increased child benefits which have lifted many families out of poverty, expanding the CPP, returning the OAS to age 65, re-establishing pensions for veterans, settling Syrian refugees, legalizing marijuana, eliminating some taxes and regulations, reorganizing the pardon program, eliminating mandatory sentencing..........and more.

Trudeau and his team have done outstanding work.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Plus........increased child benefits which have lifted many families out of poverty, expanding the CPP, returning the OAS to age 65, re-establishing pensions for veterans, settling Syrian refugees, legalizing marijuana, eliminating some taxes and regulations, reorganizing the pardon program, eliminating mandatory sentencing..........and more.
> 
> Trudeau and his team have done outstanding work.


Yes the worst PM in recent history has managed to do some okay things, that other PMs would have done similarly and some bad things, either because all the solutions suck (mandatory sentencing), or he wants to buy votes (marijuanna).

Canada has always taken in a lot of immigrants and refugees, other than the number of photo ops and lack of screening, Trudeau didn't do much different.

Legalizing marijuanna, that's just a disaster. We have no method to detect intoxication, and it's completely legal for some of the most at risk populations (young adults). What ever happened to "science based" policy?

Mandatory sentencing is a reaction to bad judges, Trudeaus alternate "solution" of just not appointing enough and letting the criminals go free isn't much better.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Anyway, enough with the off topic stuff.

The Chinese government sees these as internal political issues, and quite honestly they are.

Lots of countries do bad things, and we should call them out on it. But at the end of the day we either have to respect their sovereignty, or pressure them to change.
China responds differently to public opinion than western countries do.

So go ahead, keep it in the news, and keep the pressure on, but they won't do much, and there will be attempts to redirect to other issues. 
Like on this board the link between the Chinese camps, and US immigration processing facilities. They're quite different in intent, but a convenient distraction that US/Trump haters will latch onto quickly.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Anyway, enough with the off topic stuff.
> 
> The Chinese government sees these as internal political issues, and quite honestly they are.
> 
> ...


Yeah it would be good to stay on topic. I agree that there's not much one can do but keeping it in the media, keeping awareness of it would be good.

I also agree that this is nothing like US border detention. The Chinese government is engaging in a systematic cultural cleansing of an ethnic group, people who are citizens. The government is working to eliminate their culture and religion on a mass scale.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Chinese would be quick to point out the hypocrisy, which prevents US officials from saying anything to them about the camps.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The Chinese would be quick to point out the hypocrisy, which prevents US officials from saying anything to them.


The point is there is no hypocrisy.
Not admitting people to your country is completely acceptable. Non citizens have no right of entry, this is a well established norm.

The US for all it's faults does not have policies that imprison and eliminate ethnic groups.

Canada and the US did do this in the past, Japanese Canadians and Japanese Americans got it quite bad during WWII. I'm sure we can find other examples.

But we're not doing it now, and there is a lot of focus to try and figure out how to make sure we're not unintentionally doing it now.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US border camps are violating their own laws, which is why the Trump administration is losing court case after court case.

According to US law, refugees have a right to claim asylum, be retained under humane conditions and have their cases decided.

Separating kids from parents, forcing people to drink out of toilets, making people sleep on concrete floors, making young children care for babies., providing no showers or basic amenities......are not part of US immigration law. These are the ideas of Trump and supported by his gutless Republican pals.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

30 min vice documentary posted a few days ago - China’s Vanishing Muslims: Undercover In The Most Dystopian Place In The World (Full Report)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Canada has always taken in a lot of immigrants and refugees, other than the number of photo ops and lack of screening, Trudeau didn't do much different.



this is so wrong, although it's typical of the aimless hate-trudeau meme constantly sounded by the righties on here

refugee & immigration settlements have increased during the trudeau years. The projections are for higher still & many canadians from all parties are questioning those higher projections. The issue is sure to be front & centre in the october election.

with respect to screening, there's no "lack of screening." What's happened is that the sheer volume of applicants has delayed all screenng procedures.

perhaps you are trying to talk about the Roxham road walk-ins? these are actually being screened, at least twice. They're screened as they arrive. Persons without documentation, persons with criminal records, persons who've previously applied but been rejected, are promptly sent back from the Lacolle border station.

all other parties were admitted to canada under the refugee claimant provisions of the geneva convention. Once in canada, they await screening. Wait times are up to 2 years (see above). Immigration services are hyper-burdened, not just in canada but in every western democratic country.

media have reported that at least half of the Roxham road walk-ins do not qualify as refugees. Some are being deported. This is a controversial issue, because the economy is booming in quebec & parts of ontario, employers are begging desperately for workers & roughly 50% of the roxham road cohort is employed.

as a local, i'm one who does oppose any kind of walk-in behaviour at any location along the canadian border. The Liberals did allow roxham road to run on too long imho. However there is evidence that this year the situation has reversed itself. Walk-ins are now taken directly to the official border crossing station at Lacolle quebec, where they can be accommodated for a few days while being screened. They can be directly deported from Lacolle, a new arrangement which has required cooperation from US border services.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> this is so wrong, although it's typical of the aimless hate-trudeau meme constantly sounded by the righties on here
> 
> refugee & immigration settlements have increased during the trudeau years. The projections are for higher still & many canadians from all parties are questioning those higher projections. The issue is sure to be front & centre in the october election.
> 
> ...


Okay, Canada has admitted over 200k immigrants a year since the 90's. 
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2016006-eng.htm
https://www.statista.com/statistics/443063/number-of-immigrants-in-canada/

I get it, you love Trudeau and his "preacherish" attitude is just fine.
I just see an arrogant, unethical politician.
Arrogant and unethical, he should not have voted against an investigation into himself, he should have abstained as it was a clear conflicted of interest.

I do not like Trudeau, I think he embodies the worse of politics. 
He's failing to do his job, and actively working to damage the foundation of our society.

One example is that he doesn't believe in the rule of law.
He's not appointing judges, he's interfering with prosecutions, and he's questioning the rulings of our courts.
It's completely inappropriate and it has to stop.

So yes, I understand that for some reason you think he's wonderful. I'm not sure why.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> The US border camps are violating their own laws, which is why the Trump administration is losing court case after court case.
> 
> According to US law, refugees have a right to claim asylum, be retained under humane conditions and have their cases decided.
> 
> Separating kids from parents, forcing people to drink out of toilets, making people sleep on concrete floors, making young children care for babies., providing no showers or basic amenities......are not part of US immigration law. These are the ideas of Trump and supported by his gutless Republican pals.


Obama built those camps with full support of the Democrats and no one said a word the entire time he was in office. Democrat AOC blatantly lied when she said people were drinking out of toilets a couple days ago, but you fell for that lie. 

You know who AOC is? She recently staged a fake photo shoot of her next to an empty parking lot and claimed it was a detention center. You probably fell for that one too...there seems to be nothing that you won't believe.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I get it, you love Trudeau and his "preacherish" attitude is just fine.
> I just see an arrogant, unethical politician.
> Arrogant and unethical, he should not have voted against an investigation into himself, he should have abstained as it was a clear conflicted of interest.
> 
> ...




what a ridiculous assertion ^^

i for one do not "love" justin trudeau or any other politician for that matter

i can observe that trudeau is doing a good job as PM in an exceptionally challenging global environment. 

the economy is in fine shape, with some regional disparities which expanded transMountain pipe should alleviate. We are seeing oil industry workers who are relocating right now to new jobs in east central canada. Take calgary's Parkland Fuel, for example. They bought a going ontario/quebec based fuel concern, moved a bunch of managers & workers here from alberta, this "smart" transplant is currently doing great in eastern canada.

in addition justin trudeau has personally hauled, pushed, prodded & advanced indigenous rights issues farther ahead & faster than any prime minister in canadian history. The record is not even. True progress is always uneven, challenged, difficult to accomplish. But there has been marked & historic progress, not only in native rights but also in issues involving the rights of minorities & women in canada.

the liberals have invested in families, innovative new businesses, scientific research & minorities everywhere. Sure they've lost on a few counts such as electoral reform but that's par for politics.

the kind of angry trudeau-bashing we're seeing in cmf forum is coming from mostly aging members who have lately weighted this forum into retirement playpark. But this is not the future of canada. Retirement playpark for baby boomers will inevitably come to its natural end.

one of the moderators has repeatedly affirmed that the majority of cmf members have IP addresses in western canada. I assume he was relating the truth. However, the knowledge-based economic renaissance we are seeing in this country is mostly coming from central eastern canada.

here's an example: about a year ago i stumbled on an ocean products seafood company situated in the maritimes. What caught my eye was that they were successfully buying a huge louisiana crayfish operation.

i'd started by wanting to know if this company's shares traded publicly anywhere. Upon investigation, i was stunned by this company's excellence, its global expertise, its knowledge of & concern for ocean health, environmental protection & fish sustainability. The company had even endowed chairs in fisheries research at universities in nova scotia & new brunswick.

the owners had not yet sold any part of their thriving business, currently a multinational concern with production centres in canada, the US, europe & the caribbean. No need for an IPO, i'm sure the banks are falling over themselves to do business with this successful seafood enterprise. Three brothers, all still young, who inherited the business from their fisherman father. New Brunswick, i believe.

a business like this ^^ is the face of smart, young, forward-looking canada. It's what i intend to support. Not irate seniors croaking at justin trudeau & whining preposterously that schools these days are brainwashing kids into socialism & communism.


.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> what a ridiculous assertion ^^
> 
> i for one do not "love" justin trudeau or any other politician for that matter
> 
> ...


I'm from outside Toronto Ontario, I don't work in oil and gas.

I agree, it's mostly older more experienced people who see through Trudeaus smoke and mirrors.
I was an NDP supporter when I was younger and didn't understand why these ideas that sounded good were problematic.

Trudeau ignores science, logic and economics to the detriment of Canada.

Look at Marijuanna, the science is developing, but it's very clear that it causes brain damage. Why on earth would you legalize such a product?
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain

It's about he self-serving political interest, who cares about the long term damage it does to Canada, he can get a few years in office.
He's a trendy political celebrity, and everything wrong with politics today.


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## junior minor (Jun 5, 2019)

*recent articles from Forbes and other sources*

I've been reading on that as well. They're roughly aiming at a very specific muslim minority to prevent any potential uprisal. Quite understandable when they send students abroad. 




Others say officials are looking to avoid the at






tention that mass mosque demolitions and detentions of Muslims in Xinjiang have attracted.

"Local officials learned from Xinjiang. They know that by aggressively restricting people in obvious ways, like constructing detention centers and leaving written evidence, they might create resistance," Tianfang, the pen name of a prominent blogger critical of China's religious policies, told NPR.

The crackdown on China's Hui Muslims is in part driven by the government's fears that fundamentalist strains of Islam like Salafism and Wahhabism are filtering into China by way of Hui students who study in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and through private religious foundations on the Arabian Peninsula that have funded some Hui social enterprises and mosques.

Signs of Saudi influence, including Arabic script, are being removed across China. Hui women in Henan and Ningxia provinces say they are no longer allowed to wear the head-to-toe black abaya customary to Saudi women, and Hui shops say they no longer stock Saudi-style clothes for men or women.


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## junior minor (Jun 5, 2019)

I don'T think this is going to stop anytime soon. THere are lots going for China and although it did start simply with regular cameras this is all over the place now. I frequently jam my own (cell phone, laptop) webcams to prevent such privacy in






https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmar...-a-force-for-good-or-government/#308671de2154
The state began in 2005, an ambitious program called Skynet. The goal was to blanket every urban center with cameras. A decade later, China Daily reported the program completed 100% coverage of Beijing, a sprawling city with 21 million residents.
https://www.npr.org/2019/09/26/7633...xt-xinjiang-chinas-hui-muslims-face-crackdown

https://www.npr.org/2013/01/29/170469038/in-china-beware-a-camera-may-be-watching-you

anyways, it might be worth someone's while if the facial recognition or tech stocks are in your range of affordability. Just sharing.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

junior minor said:


> I don'T think this is going to stop anytime soon.


Of course it isn't.
People will ignore the Chinese concentration/reducation camps.

But they'll protest like mad against the enforcement of legitimate US border law.

I'm sorry that too many people are flooding the US border and it's hard to properly care for them while their cases are being reviewed.
Attacking and cutting resources to those trying to take care of those people isn't the way to help the situation.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

If this report is true, it is substantially worse than concentration camps:

https://www.businessinsider.com/chi...ribunal-tells-un-2019-9?utm_source=reddit.com


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

james4beach said:


> According to reports from media outlets in different countries, China has built large scale concentration camps specifically for an ethnic minority group (Muslim Uighurs). The Chinese government monitors the ethnic group, tracks their movements using smart phones and facial recognition, and imprisons huge numbers (between 1 - 3 million) in the concentration camps. The state calls them re-education camps or training schools.


 The Chinese are smart to let China be China & be ruled by Sharia law.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Topo said:


> If this report is true, it is substantially worse than concentration camps:
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/chi...ribunal-tells-un-2019-9?utm_source=reddit.com


No, that's what happens at concentration camps. Look at what Dr Mengele did.

That's part of the reason that it is so deeply offensive to call the US immigration holding units "concentration camps".

To suggest that they're in any way equivalent is either a truly astounding level of ignorance, or outright malevolence.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> No, that's what happens at concentration camps. Look at what Dr Mengele did.
> 
> That's part of the reason that it is so deeply offensive to call the US immigration holding units "concentration camps".
> 
> To suggest that they're in any way equivalent is either a truly astounding level of ignorance, or outright malevolence.


It's not a concentration camp if you can turn around and go home.


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## junior minor (Jun 5, 2019)

Again, this does make a lot of sense, Mister Matt, because they think it won't affect us. I wonder if this will eventually gravitate our way, considering that systems like the HuaWei are already technically everywhere from ATM to...(and, I mean, it's not as if we're talking of anything new, most of the electronics we're using are from China now) 

Here are two other articles regarding this very matter, including one that should be funny to watch, albeit ironic. 

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent...-millions-of-people-from-travelling-1.5046445






Sorry for the late reply, it's not exactly my favorite subject of discussion. I have a friend that lives there and he's been working in the free trade zone, after having a very promising career start here in Montreal. I find it very bold of him to have left everything behind so he could promote his country's and our's interest with the world third biggest.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo said:


> If this report is true, it is substantially worse than concentration camps:
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/chi...ribunal-tells-un-2019-9?utm_source=reddit.com


My.... word....



> China is harvesting thousands of human organs from its Uighur Muslim minority, UN human-rights body hears


This whole issue really bothers me. I would like to start by getting facts on what really is going on over there -- which I realize is not going to happen. It's not like journalists are allowed to roam around in China, in regular circumstances, let alone when looking for this kind of thing.

It's good that there's growing awareness of the whole thing elsewhere in the world, but I wonder if we're all doing too little, and ignoring it. One really does wonder -- is this what it was like when the Khmer Rouge began a campaign of mass slaughter in their country, again, with not a peep from the world?

On the other hand it could be that what the Chinese are doing is nothing like that. I just don't know.

The lack of certainty makes me feel very uneasy, especially when there are such strong economic incentives for our countries to continue regular business with China.

I think western countries could benefit from some guidance and thoughts offered by Jewish historians and scholars. There is vital knowledge in the Jewish diaspora, not only experience but also verbal history. Some questions are ... how does one assess what's happening inside an authoritarian regime like this? How should people in other countries calibrate and understand the severity of what's going on?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> My.... word....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The question is how much should a country or the international community interfere with the internal affairs of another country.
Also what action can or should you take?

I do think it is a good idea to ensure basic security is not dependent on potentially hostile countries.
We have a lot of trade with China and they can hurt our economy quite severely, we should not allow ourselves to be dependent on them.

Look at how the EU treats Russia. Without Russian fuel, EU citizens will freeze to death in the winter, so they never push back too hard on them.
That's why energy independance is critical for them.

For North America, we are addicted to cheap Chinese goods.

Strategically China is working on the rare earths market for a reason, they know controlling resources is important to maintain power.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow! In his final day in government, Trump actually did something good. Biden's incoming Secretary of State also agrees with the genocide designation... so there is alignment from Trump & Biden administrations.

The US has now called out China for committing "genocide and crimes against humanity"









US: China 'committed genocide against Uighurs'


The declaration came a day before the Trump administration hands over to President-elect Joe Biden.



www.bbc.com





Pompeo called out the genocide, a systematic attempt to destroy the Uygur culture and people. This is great because the US is the world power, and when the US spells out something like this, it's a game-changer which puts pressure on the world to respond. The Biden team had also acknowledged the genocide situation a few months ago, but this is now official ... US is on record.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I would like Canada, and of course, every other country as well, to look into the ramifications of putting a complete boycott on doing business with China. I mean 100% stop. We can announce a few objectives that China could meet to change it but I doubt that would happen, so again 100% no sell, no buy, no travel, no students. As if China does not exist.

When you have a bully on a school ground, giving them more power certainly does not make them any friendlier. I don't think Canada needs more examples of bully behavior from China, nor should many other countries. To be a super power you only need 3 things:

1) Technology
2) Large population
3) Economic production

We certainly cannot do much about their population, but the other two only get stronger with the more economic business they get. If we don't do this soon, I know we will regret it one day. All I can hope is that it is the generation after me that has to deal with China on a more conflicted and most likely a military basis. Can you even imagine how that is going to turn out? I mean is there a person reading this post that believes that if the US was not our Allie and Neighbour, that China would not have sent a military special forces team to Vancouver to get that Chinese women back...and kill any Canadians that attempted to stop them? Does anyone think China cares about international law?

Are we just crazy, greedy or naive?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

OptsyEagle said:


> I would like Canada, and of course, every other country as well, to look into the ramifications of putting a complete boycott on doing business with China. I mean 100% stop. We can announce a few objectives that China could meet to change it but I doubt that would happen, so again 100% no sell, no buy, no travel, no students. As if China does not exist.
> 
> When you have a bully on a school ground, giving them more power certainly does not make them any friendlier. I don't think Canada needs more examples of bully behavior from China, nor should many other countries. To be a super power you only need 3 things:
> 
> ...


We can't stop trade with China--we would be crippled. We would need ten years to prepare for it, if we were to try.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

OptsyEagle said:


> I would like Canada, and of course, every other country as well, to look into the ramifications of putting a complete boycott on doing business with China. I mean 100% stop. We can announce a few objectives that China could meet to change it but I doubt that would happen, so again 100% no sell, no buy, no travel, no students. As if China does not exist.
> 
> 
> Are we just crazy, greedy or naive?


What objectives would you put that would be met by ourselves and other trading partners?
I honestly can't think of any.
The best argument is simply "national security"
Also, remember China is a Superpower, or at least incredible regional power.
If we try to cut out China, nearby countries are going to have a brutal choice.


Secondly, a year in and Trudeau can't even stop non essential travel during the pandemic.
If he can't even keep his on MP's from going on vacations, how would he enforce a blockade with China.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Obviously it would be difficult and unlikely many other countries would follow us right away. I just think it is a little hypocritical to condemn China for their incarceration of the two Michaels, while still conducting business with China...which provides this bully with more power.

It would be much better for the US to identify the Chinese risk and for us to join them and hopefully others, but their citizen's might have less examples of Chinese aggression, then we do. Again. Bullies rarely bully big guys. They only bully anyone they feel are weaker or believe they are weaker. Giving China more business makes them stronger. Making them stronger, makes everyone else weaker, in comparison. Eventually they will be stronger then everyone.

What do you think the world will be like when China is as strong as the US, in all 3 categories of super power? Do we really think that is going to be a nice world to live in? That is all I am saying.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

OptsyEagle said:


> Obviously it would be difficult and unlikely many other countries would follow us right away. I just think it is a little hypocritical to condemn China for their incarceration of the two Michaels, while still conducting business with China...which provides this bully with more power.
> 
> It would be much better for the US to identify the Chinese risk and for us to join them and hopefully others, but their citizen's might have less examples of Chinese aggression, then we do. Again. Bullies rarely bully big guys. They only bully anyone they feel are weaker or believe they are weaker. Giving China more business makes them stronger. Making them stronger, makes everyone else weaker, in comparison. Eventually they will be stronger then everyone.
> 
> What do you think the world will be like when China is as strong as the US, in all 3 categories of super power? Do we really think that is going to be a nice world to live in? That is all I am saying.


I think that's what people miss, the US has been the dominant superpower for years.
They've been pretty good, not perfect, but the other options are worse.
The EU is ineffective, and divided.

Russia has issues, but they have internal pressures, and I'm not sure how robust their leadership chain is.

China is growing, and they have a rather strong leadership party, they can maintain a long term strategy that others can't.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Countries have to untangle themselves from dependence on the Chinese. It will take decades to accomplish.

Right now......all we can do is wag a finger at China. Global free trade was a disaster for many.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Global free trade was a disaster for many.


And a wild success for billions more.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Realistically, the US leads the charge on stuff like this. If the US starts halting business with China, then Canada is (forced) to do the same.


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