# General increase in auto & home insurance?



## HaroldCrump

Greetings,

I received my annual auto and home insurance renewal and the premiums have increased quite a bit for so apparent reason.
When I called, they told me (I'm with TD) that there has been a general across-the-board increase in auto and home insurance premiums in Ontario.
All drivers and home owners policies have been increased between 2009 - 2010.

Is this true or are they BS-ing me?

-Harold


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## Four Pillars

I remember reading in the paper recently that this was going to happen. It's still BS though.

What percentage increase did you get?


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## CanadianCapitalist

HaroldCrump said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I received my annual auto and home insurance renewal and the premiums have increased quite a bit for so apparent reason.
> When I called, they told me (I'm with TD) that there has been a general across-the-board increase in auto and home insurance premiums in Ontario.
> All drivers and home owners policies have been increased between 2009 - 2010.
> 
> Is this true or are they BS-ing me?
> 
> -Harold


I received renewal of Belair direct insurance in the mail yesterday. Home Insurance has gone up 14%. Auto insurance up 23%. No reason why there should be such an increase (such as an accident or a claim). Others, care to share what kind of increases they are seeing?


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## HaroldCrump

10% increase in auto. 20% increase in home.
So looks like I'm not the only one.
Regardless, this is complete BS and just another example of pillaging the pockets of family households and consumers during such tough economic times.


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## JC NewGrad

i'm with TD (auto) and mine was bumped up about 10%.


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## CanadianCapitalist

HaroldCrump said:


> 10% increase in auto. 20% increase in home.
> So looks like I'm not the only one.
> Regardless, this is complete BS and just another example of pillaging the pockets of family households and consumers during such tough economic times.


I should clarify that last year I switched from Co-Operators to Bel-air last year and my premiums dropped quite a bit. Don't remember exactly how much... probably close to 30%.


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## Dr_V

My monthly auto insurance rate went up from $200/mo to $214/mo (7% increase). I haven't seen my home increase yet. 

My wife and I have perfect driving records (no accidents, no tickets).


K.


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## OhGreatGuru

It's not entirely BS, but you should feel free to challenge the specific increase you have received. One way is to go to your insurance company's web site and ask for free quotation, as if you were a new customer, and see if it's lower than what they are quoting you for renewal.

The reason it's not all BS is that insurance companies obtain revenue from their investments as well as premiums. When times are good they keep premiums down to keep market share, covering the shortage in claims costs with their investment income. When the market crashes all of a sudden they have to jack rates to cover claims, as well as to restore the capital reserves they are required to have. This happens every time there is a big market downturn.

Also, a number of big international Re-Insurers got into serious financial difficulty last year. So the cost to Canadian Companies of buying re-insurance has gone up significantly.


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## HaroldCrump

OhGreatGuru said:


> The reason it's not all BS is that insurance companies obtain revenue from their investments as well as premiums. When times are good they keep premiums down to keep market share, covering the shortage in claims costs with their investment income. When the market crashes all of a sudden they have to jack rates to cover claims, as well as to restore the capital reserves they are required to have. This happens every time there is a big market downturn.


So essentially what you are saying is that _you and I_ must pay for _their_ stupid investment mistakes.
So now it's no longer about insuring my car or home - it's more about the vagaries of the stock market.
And you are saying it's not BS?
I don't mean to pick on you personally, just that the end consumers seem to be taking it in the arse left, right and center for all this mess in the last 2 years.


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## OptsyEagle

HaroldCrump said:


> I don't mean to pick on you personally, just that the end consumers seem to be taking it in the arse left, right and center for all this mess in the last 2 years.


This is always the case. I have argued left and right that companies do not pay taxes, do not pay for their customer's bad loans, do not pay for any of their mistakes ... consumers and individual tax payers pay all this, and they always will.

Whenever you hear a politician say that companies should pay more tax, that the banks should be the ones to pay for the bad loans they make, that this cost should be born by the businesses that benefit... get ready, your costs just went up.


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## HaroldCrump

A private enterprise should have every right to charge its customers whatever the hell they want.
But then as a customer I should also have the same right to tell them to (using bean's terminology from the other thread), GFY.
It is when businesses are given that right, but consumers are denied that right by oligopolistic companies and price fixing, is when it sux.
And we have several of these - insurance, telecom, media - to name a few.
They are no different than cartels.

It is amazing how the economic indicators and the govt. keep screaming that there is no inflation in the economy and in fact, there is possibility of deflation.
Yet, all I need to do is look at my monthly household expenses and see how that is all BS.
Between fall of 2008 (nearabouts when all this started) and now, my basic essential household expenses like groceries, gas, insurance, etc. have steadily gone up.
Actually at a higher rate than last several years when we were supposed to have regular inflation (in the 2% - 3% range).


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## Dana

We have perfect driving records and no claims for property insurance yet we have seen annual increases each year for the past several years. Since about 2003 we have switched insurers every year chasing lower rates. It's time and energy consuming, but I don't feel like I have a choice - I feel taken advantage of when I get a rate increase upon renewal for no reason. 

We most recently switched insurers in January and the insurer we have switched to won't even write annual policies anymore (we prefer to pay for the year upfront). The longest they will go is 6 months and I am sure that this is so that they have the opportunity to re-visit the premium they charge more often.


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## Berubeland

I'm sorry people but this in not a new trend in insurance. I'm sure there's a research study somewhere paid by insurance that evaluates what percentage of increase overcomes our natural tendency towards inertia.

Most people will grumble but not even compare rates year after year. We all know the magic of compound interest. This is how they make it work against you.


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## brad

For cars, this makes me more interested in the concept of pay-at-the-pump and other forms of pay-as-you-drive insurance. Insurance premiums are loosely tied to the amount you drive, based on your estimates, but estimates can be way off. 

For urban dwellers, rising insurance premiums make alternatives such as car-share programs (zipcar, communauto, etc.) more interesting because there you really do pay insurance only for the amount you drive. I have been seriously considering selling my car and going with Communauto for several years now, and this might push me over the edge. You pay a one-time fee to join and then a small annual membership fee, plus you pay per use. It works out to way less than owning a car, especially when you consider maintenance, cost of snow tires, insurance, etc.

The big thing you lose is convenience, and that's what has kept me from taking the jump. But I'm still thinking about it.


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## MoneyGal

Brad - we've thought about this many times in my own household as well. We have one car, which we drive infrequently. 

What has us keep the car as opposed to moving entirely to a car-sharing service is that we have two kids (only one of whom is in a carseat now) -- and the concern about by how much our insurance premiums might rise if we have a long stretch with no insurance. 

However, now that I type that out, I can see it doesn't have much validity. I think we might re-visit this again when both kids are out of carseats and more mobile on their own. We are all avid cyclists - my husband teaches urban cycling courses through Can-Bike.


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## brad

MoneyGal said:


> I think we might re-visit this again when both kids are out of carseats and more mobile on their own. We are all avid cyclists - my husband teaches urban cycling courses through Can-Bike.


Cool, same here. We live right on the bike path, and I find I can get most places in town almost as quickly by bike as by car, mainly due to no time stuck in traffic and no time spent looking for a parking space. We do most of our food shopping by bike in summer and by Metro in winter. 

There's a Communauto spot about a five-minute walk from our house, and I only drive my car a few times per month, so it really would make sense for us. Apart from the convenience, the issue that I don't like about car-sharing is that you need to bring the car back by a set time, especially if someone else is reserving it. That means if you're having a nice weekend lunch with friends and you want to stick around and chat longer, you're out of luck. But I could probably live with it.


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## ChrisR

Yikes. People complain about government meddling in insurance, but I just can't see how anyone would prefer to deal with big insurance companies. In Manitoba all basic car insurance is through Manitoba Public Insurance. My premiums haven't gone up in years, and we're not expecting any change in 2010.

To top it off, the last time MPI took in more money than they needed, we all got a refund check half-way through the year.


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## Berubeland

For some of us that just can't do without a car because of our work it really sucks to be hit with a premium increase. 

I know it's not green but I hate public transit. I just don't like being that close to a bunch of strangers. Not only that but it takes forever to get anywhere from where I am. 

Cycling is great but has severe limitations I rode my bike to school several years when I was in college. It's freaking cold in the winter and it's winter 6 months of the year here. It is actually faster than the street car.


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## MoneyGal

Yep. Faster than the street car for me. 

I am a year-round cyclist but this winter I am stuck on public transit...because I completely destroyed my knee playing soccer in the fall, and wasn't going to risk re-injuring my knee before I get it surgically repaired sometime this spring. 

Bums me out, too; because this was a fantastic winter for cycling in Toronto...almost no snow!


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## el oro

Berubeland said:


> For some of us that just can't do without a car because of our work it really sucks to be hit with a premium increase.
> 
> I know it's not green but I hate public transit. I just don't like being that close to a bunch of strangers. Not only that but it takes forever to get anywhere from where I am.
> 
> Cycling is great but has severe limitations I rode my bike to school several years when I was in college. It's freaking cold in the winter and it's winter 6 months of the year here. It is actually faster than the street car.


Pshh.. Toronto winters aren't that cold or long. I don't even bring my winter jacket when visiting in the winter.

Also, be glad you're probably not a male under 25. You probably pay less than me for your insurance.


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## brad

Berubeland said:


> I know it's not green but I hate public transit. I just don't like being that close to a bunch of strangers. Not only that but it takes forever to get anywhere from where I am.


I'm not a big fan of the bus, but the Metro is pretty great and once I get there it's faster than driving downtown. I often ride my bike to the Metro station rather than wait for the bus -- there's a bus stop at the end of my street, but if I'm not traveling during rush hour I often have to wait 20 minutes, whereas I can get to the Metro station in 10 minutes by bike.

It's weird, most of the time it takes me an hour to get downtown by car, an hour if I go entirely by public transit (bus and Metro), or an hour if I go entirely by bike. It doesn't seem to matter what form of transportation I use, it takes the same amount of time.


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## humble_pie

it's great to see people enthusing about bike bus & metro.

i prefer bus myself. I like to look out at the interesting neighbourhoods & eye the interesting architecture. I don't mind that it takes longer.

never had that thing about strangers-on-the-bus, but the one situation i really don't like is when somebody keeps coughing seriously on or near me. Even across the bus aisle is bad. Then i get stuck in that canadian polite thing about whether it would be too obvious & rude if i got up and moved. Usually i wind up moving to the rear exit as if going to disembark, then standing there waiting for some time while the passengers change.


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## Lex87

I disagree. The government tries to find the lowest prices for everyone, but private companies give the lowest prices to those who push for it which is lower than the lowest common price.

When I get my taxes done I shop around and make sure I am getting the lowest price. If I like my insurance provider I'll give them the chance to deal with me or I move on the the best price.

Don't be afraid to make the competition compete for your business, you have nothing to lose.



ChrisR said:


> Yikes. People complain about government meddling in insurance, but I just can't see how anyone would prefer to deal with big insurance companies. In Manitoba all basic car insurance is through Manitoba Public Insurance. My premiums haven't gone up in years, and we're not expecting any change in 2010.
> 
> To top it off, the last time MPI took in more money than they needed, we all got a refund check half-way through the year.


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## OhGreatGuru

I received my car insurance renewal (from TD Monnex) and the increase is only 0.85%. Of cars my cars (2) are also a year older, and they are 9 & 6 years old.


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## high octane

Lex87 said:


> I disagree. The government tries to find the lowest prices for everyone, but private companies give the lowest prices to those who push for it which is lower than the lowest common price.
> 
> When I get my taxes done I shop around and make sure I am getting the lowest price. If I like my insurance provider I'll give them the chance to deal with me or I move on the the best price.
> 
> Don't be afraid to make the competition compete for your business, you have nothing to lose.



Trust me government regulated insurance is dirt cheap in comparison and a far better experience than private

In SK, I paid nothing compared to Ont/NB/Quebec. In SK you get your licence/registration/insurance from 1 office. They even have a garage to inspect damage right there. At the end of the year if they make too much profit, they distribute it back.

You can shop around all you want but since they all agree to make huge profits together competition does very little to control the prices. There's nothing you can do if everyone else is happy to pay too much

Basically I paid LESS in SK and then got a cheque back at the end of the year. They handled my claim like a dream

Dealing with private insurance companies is a nightmare in comparison. You have to argue and hassle them just so they don't screw you over even more. Every year you have to shop around just to keep the "best deal available" (that's still no where near SK)

/rant


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## CanadianCapitalist

Rob Carrick wrote in the G&M today that he was hit with a 25% increase in his home insurance premiums.

Looking for a better deal? Good luck



> Inflation has averaged just under 2 per cent over the past five years, but the average annual increase in our home insurance bill was 10.2 per cent. I live in a four-bedroom home in the suburbs of Ottawa with my wife, two boys, a dog and cat. We think it's a pretty nice house, but the Taj Mahal it's not.
> 
> The problem isn't just that my insurer is raising its rates. It's that all companies are doing it to one extent or another, and it's near impossible to find a better deal.


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## the-royal-mail

humble_pie said:


> it's great to see people enthusing about bike bus & metro.
> 
> i prefer bus myself. I like to look out at the interesting neighbourhoods & eye the interesting architecture. I don't mind that it takes longer.
> 
> never had that thing about strangers-on-the-bus, but the one situation i really don't like is when somebody keeps coughing seriously on or near me. Even across the bus aisle is bad. Then i get stuck in that canadian polite thing about whether it would be too obvious & rude if i got up and moved. Usually i wind up moving to the rear exit as if going to disembark, then standing there waiting for some time while the passengers change.


I used to use the bus (did so for years) but when they started getting into all this low floor hoopla with SUV-sized baby strollers, reduced seating, wheelchair ramps and the whole bit, I decided I was better off in my car. My car will always have enough seats and I won't have to fight for it. Not enough seats on new buses. I also don't need to listen to blaring ipods and automated announcements at every stop. The buses of today favour numerous social causes at the expense of the greater good. I'm tired of always feeling like my presense is unwanted when I ride the bus.


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## HaroldCrump

Digging up this thread again:
so this week, I receive a letter from my auto insurer stating following:

_On September 1, 2010, changes are coming to auto insurance in Ontario.
Additional accident benefit choices will allow you to customize your policy to suit your needs.
These choices will give you greater influence over the price you pay for insurance.
Pricing will vary based on the benefits you purchase._

Oh boy....what now?
Does anyone know what changes they are talking about?
The cynic in me says this is yet another attempt at cutting coverage and increasing premiums.
I'd bet that to keep the exact same benefits, we'd have to pay more.
Or pay less by reducing benefits.

Anyone received similar letters? know what's going on?

-Harold


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## Jungle

HaroldCrump said:


> Digging up this thread again:
> so this week, I receive a letter from my auto insurer stating following:
> 
> _On September 1, 2010, changes are coming to auto insurance in Ontario.
> Additional accident benefit choices will allow you to customize your policy to suit your needs.
> These choices will give you greater influence over the price you pay for insurance.
> Pricing will vary based on the benefits you purchase._
> 
> Oh boy....what now?
> Does anyone know what changes they are talking about?
> The cynic in me says this is yet another attempt at cutting coverage and increasing premiums.
> I'd bet that to keep the exact same benefits, we'd have to pay more.
> Or pay less by reducing benefits.
> 
> Anyone received similar letters? know what's going on?
> 
> -Harold


I got the same letter. I think it has something to do with the gov forcing the insurance companies to lower the minimum medical amount in the policy that you pay for. 

http://www.thestar.com/wheels/article/719489--ontario-to-make-changes-to-auto-insurance-regulations


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## HaroldCrump

Jungle said:


> I got the same letter. I think it has something to do with the gov forcing the insurance companies to lower the minimum medical amount in the policy that you pay for.
> 
> http://www.thestar.com/wheels/article/719489--ontario-to-make-changes-to-auto-insurance-regulations


Thanks for the link.
So the "choice" is to reduce coverage and pay less premium.
How is that a choice?

$25K of medical coverage is nowhere near enough in the case of serious injuries.
So I suppose to keep existing medical coverage, we'd have to pay more?


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## canabiz

I currently have Bel-Air for auto insurance and Allstate for home. I called both companies and see if I can combine the 2 and get a better deal. Turn out I save more money staying where I am even after the bundle discount. Go figure eh?

and yes our premiums have increased for both as well.


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## Jungle

Got my condo renewal. It was $5 higher than last year. (I'm thinking, not too bad..)

So I called them and asked why it went up. They said it was inflation. I asked them to keep the same coverage as last year, without ajusting to inflation. After this, it went down $10!! (I'm thinking alright!) 

So I got my renewal for $10 cheaper! I paid the whole amount on my westjet card earing 1.5% back in travel dollars.


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## Square Root

HaroldCrump said:


> 10% increase in auto. 20% increase in home.
> So looks like I'm not the only one.
> Regardless, this is complete BS and just another example of pillaging the pockets of family households and consumers during such tough economic times.


Complete BS-pillaging. Really? Get a grip. These rates are cyclical and go up and down (ok mostly up). Insurance is a competitive business and pricing reflects environmental factors-loss rates, inflation, interest rates, fraud, availability of capital, etc. Last time I checked P&C insurance co's were not making exceptional returns.


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## MoneyGal

Harold - I suggest you read through the "Understanding Your Car Insurance" link at the Financial Services Commission of Ontario website, particularly the part on optional coverage after an accident. 

The $25K maximum does not apply in the case of catastrophic injury (the maximum is $1M in the case of a catastrophic injury). 

The reality is that if you are in a car accident and you are injured, most of your medical care will be provided by OHIP-covered doctors and hospitals. 

The additional coverage available through your car insurance covers *treatments not typically covered by OHIP* (i.e., physiotherapy, chiropractic, dental), as well as some *income replacement*. However, physiotherapy and dental (but never chiropractic!) will be covered as required as the result of a car accident. 

You can increase your coverage from the mandatory minimums, or you can purchase disability coverage separately, or you can stick with the minimums. In any case, if you are catastrophically injured as the result of a car accident, you will not be limited to $25K of medical care - which applies to non-OHIP expenses in any case.


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## HaroldCrump

Square Root said:


> Complete BS-pillaging. Really? Get a grip. These rates are cyclical and go up and down (ok mostly up). Insurance is a competitive business and pricing reflects environmental factors-loss rates, inflation, interest rates, fraud, availability of capital, etc. Last time I checked P&C insurance co's were not making exceptional returns.


So you are saying these is no collective price fixing?
And why is insurance singularly higher than anywhere in the US, all other factors being equal (age, make/model, coverage, etc.).
Esp. since there is OHIP to cover the essential care.


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## Square Root

I am quite certain there is no collusion in the sense you mean. As I said there is competition and environmental factors that tend to nudge prices one way or the other at various times and locations. I was involved with this industry to some degree at very senior levels. Don't know anything about the US vs Canada but with so many agencies regulating this industry I would be totally shocked if there was anything untoward as you suggest. I understand your sense of powerlessness. I feel the same way and would include property taxes, cell phones, cable TV, and utilities in this category. They just keep going up.


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## rookie

definitely there is a big disparity b/w here and US. my friend and i, same age and background relocated at exactly the same time. he moved to the US and i to canada. we do keep in touch and i found that my car insurance was 4x of what he paid. after 3 years and G, all state finally considered my driving experience from home country and now it is 2.5x i have shopped around and i could not find any other company that would consider my driving experience from the past


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## Jungle

What's interesting is that insurance companies don't share competitive prices for their so called "target groups." (ie, one company special is old people, another is motorcycles, other teenagers, etc.). When you ask them to be "competitive" and match the price of another company, they will not do it. 

When I moved from Durham to Toronto, my car insurance went up HUGE. What I have noticed is driving in Toronto is dangerous. People need to be re-certified on how to drive. Too much aggressive driving is the norm and the road rage people have daily is a concern. Since I moved to Toronto, someone smashed in the back of my SUV, they are 100% at fault. I almost died on my motorcycle and I sold it because I don't feel safe with these drivers. Every day I see an accident on YOnge Street. People run red lights every time, speeding, no complete stop. There is a clear disregard and wreck less behavior of drivers in Toronto. All this increase the claims and insurance prices. 

Another unfair way they calculate rates is using a database that holds the claim records for every car in insurance history. The more claims on a certain car, the higher the price. The problem with this is that you notice very popular cars tend to have the highest insurance rates. Why? Well the more popular the car, the more of them on the road and a higher chance of claims. If you take an unpopular car, you will notice the rates are cheaper. Of course they use other data like your record, age and all that too. 

Always shop around. Rates change every year. The insurance regulator boards approve different increase allowances for different companies. What this means is one company can be allowed to raise up 10% and another is only allowed 5%. 

Never stay loyal to anyone; unless they are offering you the lowest rates for the services YOU want. Watch out for up sells stuff that make them more money. They try to sneak in credit protection, accident forgiveness, etc, all this crap you didn't come shopping for. If you see use and value in this stuff than by all means go for it. Don't let them talk you into it. 

With all this complaining on a message forum, best thing you can do is write a letter to your local MPP and shop around for the best price. 

Try alternatives like autoshare, public transit.


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## Square Root

Jungle said:


> What's interesting is that insurance companies don't share competitive prices for their so called "target groups." (ie, one company special is old people, another is motorcycles, other teenagers, etc.). When you ask them to be "competitive" and match the price of another company, they will not do it.
> 
> When I moved from Durham to Toronto, my car insurance went up HUGE. What I have noticed is driving in Toronto is dangerous. People need to be re-certified on how to drive. Too much aggressive driving is the norm and the road rage people have daily is a concern. Since I moved to Toronto, someone smashed in the back of my SUV, they are 100% at fault. I almost died on my motorcycle and I sold it because I don't feel safe with these drivers. Every day I see an accident on YOnge Street. People run red lights every time, speeding, no complete stop. There is a clear disregard and wreck less behavior of drivers in Toronto. All this increase the claims and insurance prices.
> 
> Another unfair way they calculate rates is using a database that holds the claim records for every car in insurance history. The more claims on a certain car, the higher the price. The problem with this is that you notice very popular cars tend to have the highest insurance rates. Why? Well the more popular the car, the more of them on the road and a higher chance of claims. If you take an unpopular car, you will notice the rates are cheaper. Of course they use other data like your record, age and all that too.
> 
> Always shop around. Rates change every year. The insurance regulator boards approve different increase allowances for different companies. What this means is one company can be allowed to raise up 10% and another is only allowed 5%.
> 
> Never stay loyal to anyone; unless they are offering you the lowest rates for the services YOU want. Watch out for up sells stuff that make them more money. They try to sneak in credit protection, accident forgiveness, etc, all this crap you didn't come shopping for. If you see use and value in this stuff than by all means go for it. Don't let them talk you into it.
> 
> With all this complaining on a message forum, best thing you can do is write a letter to your local MPP and shop around for the best price.
> 
> Try alternatives like autoshare, public transit.


All good advice. Here is some more Buy low sell high, plant your corn early, look both ways before you cross the strreet, don't pee into the wind.


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## peterboro31

Home Insurance with TD Home and Auto. In 2008 switched to TD, and premium went down 8%! But: 2009 +14.6%; 2010 +13.4% and a punch in the gut, 2011 +42%; all insured features the same. No claims in past 5 years. Checked Kantex and Insurance Hot Line for quotes: all are higher than my current new premium. There needs to be tough government regulation of this industry--I suspect price collusion.


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## carverman

MoneyGal said:


> The additional coverage available through your car insurance covers *treatments not typically covered by OHIP* (i.e., physiotherapy, chiropractic, dental), as well as some *income replacement*. However, physiotherapy and dental (but never chiropractic!) will be covered as required as the result of a car accident.
> 
> You can increase your coverage from the mandatory minimums, or you can purchase disability coverage separately, or you can stick with the minimums. In any case, if you are catastrophically injured as the result of a car accident, you will not be limited to $25K of medical care - which applies to non-OHIP expenses in any case.


How much of the additional treatment would the car insurance co cover as a result of a severe injury? 
Lets say you become a parapalegic, or some severe mobility disability
how much are they going to cover if you need someone to dress and feed
you and care for you around the clock? They will weasel out either way, because of the fine print, if you don't
pay additional premiums for that kind of coverage..

in my case: Income replacement: not included
Caregiver/dependent care: not included
Medical Rehabilitation & attendent care: not included
Death & funeral: not included
Indexation benefit: not included

However, this applies to your own insurance policy...if you get hit and injured by someone else and it's
deemed to be their fault, probably litigation is the only way to collect these additional benefits.


As far as the OPCF 44R coverage..
but subsections 1.2(c) and 1.2(d) applies only where the person injured or killed is NOT an insured person

Collision with an uninsured motorist..(quite common these days)...

" eligible claimaint is entitled to recover damages from inadequately insured motorist....determining the Insurers
limit of liability under section 4.......the limit of motor vehicle liability insurance shall be deemed to be the
aggregate of all limits of motor vehicle liabiliy insurance and all bonds, cash deposits or other financial
guarantees as required by law"..and so on...
....(referring back to subsections of change form)..more legalese..

Reality of the situation is..if the uninsured driver has no assets, there isn't much you can collect through your insurance
from the uninsured driver...so you would have to collect disability expensed from your own insurance company
and there is a actual limit to how much they will pay out. 

About the only thing left is to sue the insurance companies depending on the circumstances of the accident. 
If it's the other guy's fault, then more than likely a lawsuit will be required if you need extended benefits anyway.


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## OhGreatGuru

Here's a pleasant surprise. My home insurance invoice came today, and it's actually down 9% from 2011. Mind you, 2011 was up 20% over 2010.


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## HaroldCrump

Yep, ours went down exactly 9% as well.
However, more than an offsetting increase in auto insurance.
Auto insurance has been going up steadily since 2008, and in 2010 was a double digit increase with reduced benefits to boot.


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## Jungle

Ok got the renewal in, they want 20% more. I already have no frills coverage and high deductible. I don't make claims unless it's something I can't pay for. Ie fire or liability. This is with TD Meloche Monnex. 

Anyone have suggestions for cheap home insurance? I have tried insurance hunter and desjardans with no luck.


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## HaroldCrump

Your home insurance went up, or auto?
My home insurance renewed in April and it went down slightly (very slightly).
Auto insurance, on the other hand, has been increasing steadily every year.
Govt. says the rates should be going down, but they are increasing.


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## FrugalTrader

I'm also with TD Meloche Monex, and they told me there was a "general increase" which worked out to be around 3%.


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## birdman

Firstly, I'm certainly not an insurance expert but in regards to home insurance, agencies normally do underwriting for a number of different insurance companies. Lets assume you are insured with XYZ Co the agency simply passes on your annual renewal to you for payment. I suggest you ask them to "shop the policy" which means check the rates at the other companies they represent. They will be different and if you are still not comfortable with the quote, perhaps think about asking another agency to provide you a quote and most likely they will be agents of a number of different companies. I was recently faced with a 22% increase which was right after a 10% increase the year before. Went to another agency and got a sweet deal at 20 % less than my renewal quote. However, as was mentioned previously, rates are somewhat determined by worldwide incidents due to the effect of reinsurance. As I understand it, insurance companies pass on a share of their risk to other companies and reinsurers and presumably the reinsurers also reinsure their risk and the risk ends up getting covered throughout the country perhaps the continent, and perhaps the world??? Not sure exactly. 
In regards to auto insurance, our provincial insurance seem pretty good overal but they are certainly not a walk over in regards to claims. Suggest you shop your policy.


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## Jungle

This is for Home Insurance. Our car is with Desjardins now, and is much cheaper than anyone else quoted. (used to be with TD MM, they too wanted a large increase, so I found Desjardins MUCH cheaper) However, Dejardins wants $300 more a year to bundle home insurance, and that is with the bundle discount. 

Seems like I'm not the only one to be hit with a 20% increase from TD Meloche Monnex. They are reporting a general increase accross the board. More discussion here:

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/car-home-insurance-increase-2013-a-1298980/

If anyone has cheap house insurance, please provide the name/ broker. I've done quotes with Insurance Hunter, Kinetix, PC Insurance, etc. This is for GTA.


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## HaroldCrump

Hi Jungle,

I am with TD General Insurance (not Monnex) and I find their rates to be most competitive (in my case).
Every year, I shop around during Feb - March (my renewal is April) and TD's renewal quote is either at or slightly below the competition.
I did a quote from Desjardins this March as well, and it was about $2 a month higher than TD.

I do have a customer loyalty discount, though.

The home insurance doesn't concern me - it's the auto insurance rates that bug me.


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## Homerhomer

Jungle said:


> This is for Home Insurance. Our car is with Desjardins now, and is much cheaper than anyone else quoted. (used to be with TD MM, they too wanted a large increase, so I found Desjardins MUCH cheaper) However, Dejardins wants $300 more a year to bundle home insurance, and that is with the bundle discount.
> 
> Seems like I'm not the only one to be hit with a 20% increase from TD Meloche Monnex. They are reporting a general increase accross the board. More discussion here:
> 
> http://forums.redflagdeals.com/car-home-insurance-increase-2013-a-1298980/
> 
> If anyone has cheap house insurance, please provide the name/ broker. I've done quotes with Insurance Hunter, Kinetix, PC Insurance, etc. This is for GTA.


I am with TD and was also hit with about 25% increase, and that is already second time in the last 2 or three years, with that said I still wasn't able to find any other company with better rates.


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## 6811

Funny this thread should surface again just now, as I just received my renewal in the mail yesterday from intact and it's gone down about 30%. Yeah, I couldn't believe it either and after reading the policy renewal document that listed some cancelled coverage's, called my broker in a panic and found that it was indeed true. intact has bundled their "personal property, detached private structures, and additional living expenses" into something called a "Single amount, broad coverage replacement cost endorsement on contents". Hey, I'll take it


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## Jungle

Thanks for the suggestions.. I found cheaper insurance from TD Insurance.. about 30% cheaper lol (and weird thing is, I'm with TD Meloche Monnex, their sister company ..) 
Insurance companies are funny.


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## HaroldCrump

I told you so.
I think I deserve a


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## canabiz

My home insurance pretty much stays the same this year while my car insurance goes down a whopping 40%! 

I have always had good car insurance but it went up last year because I was at fault in a fender-bender. This year's renewal rate is more like what I paid 2 years ago and that's more like it!


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## Jungle

Please share your insurance company name ^^ and yes, Harold gets a gold star for his suggestion as well. 

And for anyone with "TD Meloche Monnex" switching to "TD Insurance,” you do not have to pay any early cancellation penalty fees, since they are the same company. I was surprised by this and will be getting a $120 refund, since I cancelled one policy early. ( I insure two properties)


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## canabiz

Jungle said:


> Please share your insurance company name ^^ and yes, Harold gets a gold star for his suggestion as well.
> 
> And for anyone with "TD Meloche Monnex" switching to "TD Insurance,” you do not have to pay any early cancellation penalty fees, since they are the same company. I was surprised by this and will be getting a $120 refund, since I cancelled one policy early. ( I insure two properties)


Not sure if you were asking me? but my insurance company is BelAir. I have both home and auto insurance with them and it's been great. 

They give you discount for having winter tires and you were also able to earn Aeroplan points so I usually made lump sum payments to get the points. This partnership is now ending (or has ended already, I will have to check) but it was great while it lasted.


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## marina628

Been with the same insurance company for 28 years , have not had any increases on any of our home policies since 2010 and this year they went down about 6%.I priced it out with TD a couple years ago and first it seemed good but once I got the apples and apples quote TD was actually more expensive.I have a separate jewelry policy and that was e area TD could not complete.


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## snowbird

Condo Insurance renewal time: TD sent a bill with an increase of over 25% over last year's bill..when i called, the rep managed to get a quote that allows me keep last year's price of $558 if i reduce contents value by $20K. I am still debating this, but i was curious to see how much are people paying for condo insurance?. I know value of contents, etc will be different for everyone but looking to get a rough idea of what others are seeing:

Mine is a 912 sq ft. condo in Calgary (Inner city) and was affected by the 2013 flood so rates already jumped by almost 50% after claims were settled back then, ugh.

Any tips on getting better rates?

Thanks


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## aassdd2016

I do not know this before.
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## rl1983

Condo Owners are getting hammered in the last couple of years. I actively shopped around last year and finally settled on a family friend as the broker. He said the risk for insurance companies have gone up due to many claims in condos.


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## canabiz

I have been with BelAir Direct for a number of years for both home and car insurance. I just received my renewal notice with a price increase so I decided to phone around to see if I could get better rates elsewhere.

Long story short, I have moved my files over to RBC Insurance, saving about $500 in the process (BelAir is not able to match what RBC offers, all things being equal). The bonus is RBC Insurance is one of a few insurance companies that accept AMEX as a method of payment and I can pick up some Aeroplan points this way so it's all good in my book!


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## hystat

we switched last year - moved the cars to CAA, house to CIBC. Had to split them to get a decent deal oddly enough. 
Saved about $1000/yr. and even added collision to one vehicle. 
and no stupid tracking devices in our cars. 

these threads tend to show a dozen people saving by going a dozen different ways. One person saves by switching to the company another left. It's like the insurance companies don't have computers. very little consistency. You have to shop around.


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## sags

Just a word of warning to people who have held policies with "mutual" insurance companies for a long time.

The government has passed regulations allowing demutualization of auto and property insurers, which is basically going from a mutual policy owned company to a public share company.

If a mutual company decides to demutualize, as Economical Insurance is the first to do, the value of entire company will be issued in shares and the proceeds distributed to eligible policyholders.

A substantial part of the allocation of funds arising from a demutualization will be due to the duration of the individual policy. 

Just saying..............if you are with a mutual insurance company, check out the probability of demualization before leaving for another company.


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## agent99

hystat said:


> we switched last year - moved the cars to CAA, house to CIBC. Had to split them to get a decent deal oddly enough.
> Saved about $1000/yr. and even added collision to one vehicle.
> and no stupid tracking devices in our cars.
> 
> these threads tend to show a dozen people saving by going a dozen different ways. One person saves by switching to the company another left. It's like the insurance companies don't have computers. very little consistency. You have to shop around.


CAA does offer tracking devices. If you install hem, you get an immediate 5% discount and if you drive sensibly, this can increase to 15% after a year.


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## twa2w

Some things to do to lower insurance.
Home
Do a review of your policy to ensure all coverage is still needed
Do you need all perils rather than broad coverage
Can you reasonably increase your deductables?
If you have new roof, new furnace, updated electrical or plumbing make sure your insurance knows
Do you have an alarm system or wired in smoke alarms, let your insurance company know
Are you non smokers, non drinkers
How far are you from hydrant, fire hall
How long have you been in your current house and how long have you had house insurance.
All these things may affect your premium

Auto
Again check your policy
What are your deductables
Do you need collision ins on your 15 year old car 
Do you use winter tires. Does your car have an alarm system/antitheft device.
Are you an alcohol abstainer
Was your kid on as an occasional driver and no longer lives at home.
Do you have riders like loss of use or insurance on non owned cars(rentals) that are not needed or covered by your credit card?
Are your house and autos with same company for multi policy discount?

Some or all of these may affect your policy depending on your company.

Any others you you can think of. I got an 800 refund on last years policies and a reduction of 500 on this years policy by calling and reviewing my policies. I feel foolish I didnt do this earlier.

Any other hints are welcome


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## smihaila

twa2w said:


> Some things to do to lower insurance.
> Home
> [...]
> *If you have new roof,* new furnace, updated electrical or plumbing make sure your insurance knows.


LOL, by doing that the outcome will be completely different and more shocking than you would expect: the bastards will INCREASE your insurance premiums.
Speaking from experience...


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Insurance on one of our houses was reduced earlier this month by over 10% ($187) when we advised them that it had a new roof.
Another was reduced by about the same when we advised them that the fireplace had been take out when we renovated.


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## smihaila

Mine had got up when I've told them that I've got a new, steel roof. Allegedly because the "house' value has increased". I dumped the bastards right away...
Actually I lived without any home insurance mafia / racketeering afterwards (house was purchased without banksters' "help").


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## OnlyMyOpinion

I can sympathize, and after paying home insurance for 35 years without a claim I would even agree except that we bought a place a few years back and within 10 mos had a fireplace fire in it. We'd paid less than $400 in insurance premiums at that time but the insurer stepped up and repaired the damage of over $110,000 with no problems. If it had not been insured, I'd have kissed that value goodbye.


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## sags

I used to think insurance was a fairly straightforward and simple business. They charge a premium, pay out liabilities and pocket the difference.........or so I thought.

After digging into it lately, I discovered insurance companies are far more complicated than that. They are very complex financial entities that just happen to be in the insurance business.

The insurance business is a wonderland for actuaries to make practical use of all their complex equations.

If a customer wanted to find out the actual reason for their premium hike or reduction, they would probably have to find the actuaries who performed the work to learn the correct answer.

Any other company representative would likely make something up that sounds reasonable and easy to understand, or more factually say..........'it's complicated".


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## birdman

It would be nice to know how much property insurance pay out in claims compared to premium income. I believe they pay 23% of your premium to the agency, they most likely want 20% for profit, and I am guessing their overhead is 25% or so. Doesn't seem to leave much for paying out claims. You can save yourself a bundle by self insuring but thats really not possible with Auto and Home ins. Add on insurance from purchases (auto repairs, rustproofing, extended warranties, etc) are insurances that I never buy.


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## sags

This is a link to one companies financial statements which breaks down premiums and claims in both their auto and property business sectors.

http://www.economicalinsurance.com/en/financialcorner/annualquarterlyotherreports.asp

Some years they pay out less in claims than they collect in premiums and some years it is the opposite. When there is a shortfall, they rely on investment returns to make up the difference.

Over the course of time, long term policyholders are the key to their success as the cumulative affect of the premiums builds the reserve and surplus funds.

Insurance companies may offer lower premiums for new clients than current clients hoping they can convert them into long term clients.

I would think that explains why people hopping around from company to company may find their premiums lower than someone who stays with the same company.


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## houska

frase said:


> It would be nice to know how much property insurance pay out in claims compared to premium income. I believe they pay 23% of your premium to the agency, they most likely want 20% for profit, and I am guessing their overhead is 25% or so. Doesn't seem to leave much for paying out claims. You can save yourself a bundle by self insuring but thats really not possible with Auto and Home ins. Add on insurance from purchases (auto repairs, rustproofing, extended warranties, etc) are insurances that I never buy.


Depends on the type of insurance. There are a few key numbers. The loss ratio is claims / premiums, and if I remember right from years ago is typically in the 50-60% range for P&C insurance. The combined ratio is claims + expenses (including commissions) and is typically in the high 80s. Of course there is some variation from year to year, and in part to address that (it is not infrequent for a company to have a combined ratio > 100% in a given year, i.e. operate at an underwriting loss) they also maintain a fairly significant reserve which is invested, and so in addition to the premiums they make some investment income.


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## twa2w

smihaila said:


> LOL, by doing that the outcome will be completely different and more shocking than you would expect: the bastards will INCREASE your insurance premiums.
> Speaking from experience...


Interesting, because when I gave my insurance company this info last month, they rebated me over 800 dollars on my 2015 policy and decreased my 2016 premium by over 600.
And all the insurance companies I called for quotes said this would reduce my premium.


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## sags

As noted by Houska, property and auto insurance companies work very closely to the line on profits or losses every year, and the company we deal with has been reducing their policies or raising premiums in high claim areas.

The Toronto GTA area is one of high claims and costs in auto. They are also looking at homes in areas negatively affected by climate change, such as drought (fire) or flooding to reduce exposure to large losses.

I think it wise to conclude that premiums will continue to rise as the cost of claims rise and there may even be areas where no insurance coverage is available or very expensive to obtain.

At one time when most of the insurance coverage was from "mutual" companies, the consideration was that everyone was offered reasonably priced insurance........a neighbor taking care of neighbors concept.

Today the big companies are privately owned for profit and they don't operate under the same principles. If a policy is a higher risk they demand a higher premium or don't offer coverage at all.

Rising insurance rates are one example of the consumer cost of privatization. Shareholders be wanting their profits and dividends.............


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## sags

Insurance is a complicated business, and life insurance even more so.

When Manulife converted to a share company they had to provide full disclosure to their 671,000 participating policyholders (owners of the company) before they voted.

The brochure detailing the company structure, businesses, and calculations for fair market value and allocation of funds to policyholders was 388 intense pages of numbers and formulas.

The printing alone required 4 large printing presses working 24 hours a day for 840 hours to complete the job. Then the "telephone books" had to be delivered around the world.

The printing and distribution was an impressive and expensive feat by itself in 1999.

Today it could probably be sent as an email attachment PDF.


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