# Mayor of Toronto contemplating installing road tolls on city freeways



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

John Tory, mayor of Toronto is contemplating imposing a road toll on the principle access routes into the city from the GTA,
particularly the Gardner and Don Valley expressways. He even suggested that if there was a $2 toll per use, it could raise as much as $150 -300 million in 1 year to help pay for the crumbling infrastructure repairs.



> “(People) don’t live in the suburbs and commute into Toronto because they like to commute, the commute sucks. They do it because of economic reasons, right? I*f you need tax revenue, tax the people that can afford a million dollars for a home, not the people who live in the suburbs because they don’t have a million dollars for a home,*” he said.
> 
> But some Toronto residents are arguing that only people coming in from outside the city should have to pay.


https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ayors-proposal-for-tolls-on-gardiner-dvp.html


I can remember another unpopular revenue generating tax scheme that the former mayor of Toronto came up with for an extra city tax on car owners.
That was rescinded in 2011 due to it's gouging double taxation effect. Every vehicle owner had to pay an extra $60 to the city when they went to get their sticker renewed starting September 2008. Didn't last long.




> City Council voted to introduce this tax (under New Taxation Measures – City of Toronto Act, 2006) on every Torontonian in 2007 due to a shortage of revenue in the City coffers. It was implemented on September 1, 2008 and Torontonians have hated it ever since; some Torontonians even registered their address outside of Toronto to avoid having to pay the tax.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

Yeah, but this tax isn't on Torontonians. Suburbs will pay most of it. They don't get to vote. To be fair, they are the ones who are using the roads most and someone has to pay. Reduction in traffic is a good thing too.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It is long overdue for TO to impose a road toll on their main arteries. It is patently unfair for the taxpayers of Toronto to pay for roads mostly used by those living outside Toronto. When I lived in the GTA but worked in Toronto for years and years, I empathized with residents of Toronto. I would have gladly paid a road toll to use the Gardiner or DVP. Most major infrastructue should be paid for (at least partially) by those that use it. I got quite used to paying tolls in US cities where I lived or commutted. It is the right thing to do.

Another way for TO to tackle the same thing IF they could get the ON government to agree is to impose a 'head' tax for those those that work within TO limits but have home addresses outside Toronto. Employers would be responsible for taking the deduction off pay packets as a payroll deduction. I believe a number of US cities do this, e.g. NYC. Why should someone from New Jersey or Connecticut use NYC infrastructure and not pay for it?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

mordko said:


> Yeah, but this tax isn't on Torontonians. Suburbs will pay most of it. They don't get to vote. To be fair, they are the ones who are using the roads most and someone has to pay. Reduction in traffic is a good thing too.


The main motivation should be to promote optimal utilization of the infrastructure. It is overburdened now, and tolling (at least at peaks) would help shift traffic to other times or other modes (like GO or carpool). I think the toll should be minimal (cover wear and tear, perhaps) for off-peak travel. This is where the 407 fails--it is remarkable expensive to use all day/week long.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Another way for TO to tackle the same thing IF they could get the ON government to agree is to impose a 'head' tax for those those that work within TO limits but have home addresses outside Toronto. Employers would be responsible for taking the deduction off pay packets as a payroll deduction. I believe a number of US cities do this, e.g. NYC. Why should someone from New Jersey or Connecticut use NYC infrastructure and not pay for it?


This is already done, effectively, by shifting property tax burden from residential to commercial/industrial uses.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I suppose until those businesses/industries with legs go find another jurisdiction. Seems to be lost on the ON government.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

If he does impose yet another tax on the working people of Toronto, which set of bums does he propose to give the money to?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> I suppose until those businesses/industries with legs go find another jurisdiction. Seems to be lost on the ON government.


I was not commenting on whether it is a good idea or not. Realize that the ideas are essentially equivalent. If you tax a person for working in Toronto, that cost gets passed on to business that are based in Toronto through the need to pay higher wages.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I can see it's becoming a problem of overutilization of these expressways, that were designed years ago for a traffic flow that has increased at least 10 fold , due to people living outside Toronto in the GTA..
driving in via the QEW from Oakvillle/Burlington and further north as far as Keswick, coming down the 404 then getting onto the DVP. 

The traffic from the east (Oshawa/Marham etc also dumps onto the DVP, so the time has come for Toronto to turn it into a toll road to offset the wear&tear and maintenance required on it. 

A flat rate of $2 for the DVP and similar for the Gardiner makes sense, even if people are objecting to having these expressways turned into toll roads.but this is 2016 after all, and if people prefer to live in suburbia and commute 30 or 40Km to get to the downtown business section where they work, they have to pay the price. I'm sure that parking fees are a lot more than the daily toll rate ($2 or $4 return).

Thats only about $10 (or $20 return) for a 5 day work week to use the expressways. They may have transponders eventually as well to eliminate having to slow down to toss a " twonie coin" into the collector bin as you go by.
The problem may be for any visitors that are unprepared and don't have the loose change to toss in as
they come through the toll booths.


This day and age, it should be done electronically anyway..that way there is no need to have manned toll collection stations. I have never understood why these toll booths couldn't be automated in the first place.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

carverman said:


> This day and age, it should be done electronically anyway..that way there is no need to have manned toll collection stations. I have never understood why these toll booths couldn't be automated in the first place.


Jobs. 

It's all part of the massive employment infrastructure that is required to take a toll. And once it's is set up, it's hard to go back to no tolls.

ltr


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> Thats only about $10 (or $20 return) for a 5 day work week to use the expressways. They may have transponders eventually as well to eliminate having to slow down to toss a " twonie coin" into the collector bin as you go by.
> The problem may be for any visitors that are unprepared and don't have the loose change to toss in as
> they come through the toll booths.
> This day and age, it should be done electronically anyway..that way there is no need to have manned toll collection stations. I have never understood why these toll booths couldn't be automated in the first place.


Doubt very much they would put in toll booths. That would cause even more congestion. 

Perhaps they should have some sort of regional authority that is funded by all GTA taxpayers to partly fund all GTA arteries, not just DVP and Gardeners. Taxpayers should include both residents and commercial. More trucks than cars sometimes on these roads. Who funds the 400 series highways, QEW and other area roads used by commerce and commuters? Do users pay for those? 

One other thing - seems property taxes in Toronto are not very high. We pay higher taxes living in country outside small town than kids do in Toronto in similar sized. I wouldn't think it would take much of a property tax increase to be equivalent to $2 road tool? They estimate they would bring in $250million from road tolls (before or after administration??)


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Tolls are mostly done electronically now by cameras reading license plates and then billing the registered owner. Or have an online account with the tolling authority and have the tolls due from cameras paid automatically per credit card.

That is what I do with the Port Mann bridge in Vancouver (have an online account wiht TReO - the tolling authority). https://www.treo.ca/the-bridge/ Easy, peasy.

Someone has to pay for infrastructure. The way we are doing it today is not getting the job done.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Provincial hiways are paid for by gas taxes. The taxpayers have paid for them several times over. It's just another tax grab, another attempt to keep a failing system going.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Provincial hiways are paid for by gas taxes. The taxpayers have paid for them several times over. It's just another tax grab, another attempt to keep a failing system going.


Except neither the Gardiner or DVP are provincial highways. Therein lies the rub. Who pays for them?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Good, it's about time, and it's also good that it will discourage people driving cars all the way into downtown.

I lived in the Toronto downtown for many years, up until just a couple years ago. The road infrastructure is falling apart, esp Gardiner which even the engineers say is structurally unsound. I worry that this thing is going to collapse at some point.

Suburban commuters are huge users of this infrastructure, they drive in from as far away as 100 km DAILY, congest the roads, and then leave the city to return to their homes. As Toronto residents, we were the ones unfairly having to pay all the bills: fixing the infrastructure, and suffering through the constant repairs and inconveniences due to repair *load caused mostly by non-residents, the visitors from the suburbs.*

Consider this for example. I have my car, downtown, and want to go and run errands on the weekend. But the weekend is when the city decides to close the Gardiner for emergency repair work, almost always Sat/Sun. I am paying Toronto taxes, *I am paying to fix these roads*, but can't even use the infrastructure at times because the suburban crowd wears it out -- that's incredibly unfair to Toronto residents. And yes those closures happen a lot.

How is it that I get stuck paying the taxes and yet I suffer the most from the closures??

I think the toll system will be a nice way to shape the traffic in the desired way, and also to raise revenue from the people actually using those roads. It's very fair.

As an added benefit, it rewards people using the most efficient transportation methods: cyclists, public transit & Go train users, and carpools. I agree that tolls will be a bit irritating but the current situation isn't sustainable, and it's in the best interest of Toronto to fix its roads and expressways


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

If one road has tolls maybe all roads should have tolls ?

Maybe get rid of 100% taxes go 100% user fees ?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^That logic is about as good as "the government provides some services, maybe the government should provide all services." We're not likely going to see tolls for walking down the sidewalk or entrance fees for the park.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

lonewolf :) said:


> Maybe get rid of 100% taxes go 100% user fees ?


But lonewolf, I pointed out that taxes are a mis-match for the critical roadways like the Gardiner. The City of Toronto is responsible for paying for repairs, but many of the users are not Toronto taxpayers. It would be unjust to raise Toronto property taxes to pay entirely for this.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> Except neither the Gardiner or DVP are provincial highways. Therein lies the rub. Who pays for them?


The major roads across North and down west side are 400 series, so presumably Provincial. The Eastern artery (DVP) and the Southern (Gardeners) are not Provincial. But maybe they should be? They are not just used by commuters to get into downtown. They are routes used for crossing Toronto going either East or West just like the 401/427. I used to use them regularly as alternative to 427/401 when making weekly trips to Oakville from my office in the east. Kingston road is another congested artery that I would sometimes try because of DVP congestion. 

Perhaps they need to revisit some of the projects that were abandoned along the way? Gardener was supposed to go to 401 - lot of people live out that way and it would avoid need to use the DVP. Then there was the contentious Spadina Expressway that was cancelled. Whatever, TO lacks a lot of infrastructure whether it be roads or public transit.

http://www.gettorontomoving.ca/don-valley-parkway.html


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ultimately, you need to price (ie toll) highways like the Gardiner if you want them to not be congested. Even if the gas tax was paying for the Gardiner, it does not address the problem of it being congested.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Ultimately, you need to price (ie toll) highways like the Gardiner if you want them to not be congested. Even if the gas tax was paying for the Gardiner, it does not address the problem of it being congested.


Maybe they should require all those towers that are being built downtown to include sufficient living accomodations for the people that will work there? Many people commute just because there is nowhere they can afford to live in Toronto itself. 

Others commute by car because the public transit system doesn't serve their areas. I lived in London England at one time. I had a car, but wouldn't think about driving it on my daily commute. The roads were very busy there too. But there was also such a good transit system that we could use.

I just don't see that adding tolls for just two roadways solves any kind of problem. The revenue will just get frittered away and the overall problems will remain.

But, thankfully I am not a Toronto area resident, so no worries


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

London England charges you for driving into it. So... great example to illustrate your point.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Doubt very much they would put in toll booths. That would cause even more congestion.
> 
> Perhaps they should have some sort of regional authority that is funded by all GTA taxpayers to partly fund all GTA arteries, not just DVP and Gardeners. Taxpayers should include both residents and commercial. More trucks than cars sometimes on these roads.





> Who funds the 400 series highways, QEW and other area roads used by commerce and commuters? Do users pay for those?


All drivers in Ontario pay for funding for road maintenance and improvements on it's major highways. Obviously, in smaller population centres like Northern Ontario and parts of western Ontario, Kenora, Sault ste Marie, where there isn't enough licenced vehicles and drivers, the Federal gov't shares a signifcant share of the highway maintenance, including building or repairing new bridges. 

The collapse of the new side of the twinned Nipigon bridge being built on TransCanada Hwy 17 at Nipigon Ont, put a severe backlog on that part of the highway this past year. Fortunately, trucks were still able to use the older bridge but traffic was congested there. This is an example where the federal gov't got involved with infrastructure funding.

On the interprovincial routes the feds picks up a significant part of the tab, because transport trucks use this a lot for inter province commerce. The major 4 lanes such as 401 and 400 within the city of Toronto are also partly funded by the federal gov't. 

The DVP and Gardner expressways are city owned and city maintained and funded and built in the '50s when Toronto didn't have the suburbia driving it has experienced in the last 40 years. No doubt, as long as drivers still continue to use it everyday to get downtown, the situation is going to get a lot worse in the next few years.

The public opposition to the Spadina expressway from the 401 to the downtown core...
... is now coming back to bite them in the *ss. It seemed like a good idea at the time and the politicians decided to cancel it, but nobody planned on the growth within the GTA fortyodd years ago. 



> The parkway was the second expressway to be built by Metropolitan Toronto (Metro). Planning began in 1954, the year of Metro's formation.





> The Don Valley Parkway, along with the Gardiner Expressway, is one of Toronto's busiest municipal routes. *It is the sole north–south expressway into Toronto's downtown, a role it was not designed to support.* The parkway was planned as one of a series of expressways to provide commuter routes to downtown from the expanding suburbs.
> 
> Two other un-built expressways were planned: the Scarborough Expressway, expected to handle traffic between downtown and the eastern suburbs, and the Spadina Expressway, expected to serve traffic from the north-west.By the early 1980s, *traffic volumes on the parkway exceeded capacity*,and today, the parkway has significant traffic congestion on most days.





> often the full length of the highway in event of a collision or other hazard. The daily congestion has earned the highway the quasi-affectionate nickname of the "Don Valley Parking Lot".[8]





> *The section immediately south of Highway 401 is often congested at all hours*. Traffic studies have attributed congestion in the southbound lanes to the number of lanes merging from Highways 401 and 404 into the parkway and the lane changing that results from merging traffic from Highway 401 clashing with exiting traffic to the nearby York Mills exit.[31] Congestion in the northbound lanes is attributed to truck traffic coping with the steep grade of the valley, lane changing, and insufficient advanced signage for Highway 401. Most traffic in this section travels north on Highway 404, but only two of the five lanes lead to it.



As far as the other major Ontario highways within Toronto, the province is responsible for these.




> The Government of Canada maintains very little power or *authority over the maintenance or expansion of the system beyond sharing part of the cost of economically significant projects *within the network. Highways within the system are not given any special signage, *except where they are part of a Trans-Canada Highway route.*





> Routes within the system continue to be maintained, funded and signed as provincial, rather than federal, highways. *However, the federal government provides some funding assistance for important maintenance and expansion projects on designated highways through cost sharing programs*


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Good, it's about time, and it's also good that it will discourage people driving cars all the way into downtown.
> 
> As an added benefit, it rewards people using the most efficient transportation methods: cyclists, public transit & Go train users, and carpools.
> 
> I agree that tolls will be a bit irritating but the c*urrent situation isn't sustainable, and it's in the best interest of Toronto to fix its roads and expressways*


Agreed. I lived in TO (actually in Mississauga in the 70s to 1980 until I moved to Ottawa. I used to commute downtown from Mississauga on the 401, then the 427 south to the Gardner to work downtown (Globe and Mail newspaper). It was a long tiring commute for me back then and the traffic congestion was getting worse every year. 
Fortunately I never got involved in an accident in my daily 50km each way commutes over a 6 year period, but there was a lot of gas wastedgetting into downtown as well as sitting in traffic not being able to move after an accident. 
No wonder the DVP has been nicknamed the "Don Valley Parking Lot".


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I spent several years in the 90s commuting from 404 and Major Mac to Mississauga Road and 401. This was before 407 was completed. Tolls would have been appreciated.

The Spadina Expressway was a major f-up putting extra load on 427 and DVP. I hope Tory is successful in getting the tolls. Then watch the province follow suit with 400 series highways. They subsidize the GO Train, why not the other methods.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The USA has had good success with toll roads and bridges in densely populated areas. I've marvelled at the effectiveness of them and used to use them often (the majority of the time) in the cities where I lived and worked. Many of them with partial or completely private financing. It is inappropriate for all taxpayers to pay for expensive infrastructure like bridges and roads used by a small minority. 

I think a mistake is being made NOT (I think) to toll the new Champlain bridge replacement in Montreal, but that has been politicized with Quebec whining and sniveling. I love using the new (tolled) Port Mann bridge on the TC Highway in Vancouver. What is not to like?


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> I think a mistake is being made NOT (I think) to toll the new Champlain bridge replacement in Montreal, but that has been politicized with Quebec whining and sniveling.


I used to live in Montreal and used the Champlain bridge a lot. The toll booths were a PIA causing huge traffic backups. I seem to recall they could adjust number of lanes depending on time of day, but that only helped a bit. They got rid of the tolls on the ET Autoroute a long time ago. One good thing is that there is no need with the new A30 for those travelling East to go through Montreal and use the Champlain bridge. It is a toll road, but not expensive.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

No one needs toll booths any more. Remote camera reads of license plates does the job.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The crime about The Champlain is that they just spent many millions on building new access routes that will be trashed by the new bridge. I believe that all bridges should have some level of toll. That is the only way we will get a third crossing over Burrard Inlet. Just think about what they could collect on 401.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Instead of a toll fees anyone that does not pay taxes ban them from using the roads. Take away some of the leaching off the productive. Living off welfare to lazy to get a job take away benefits tax payers pay for.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

lonewolf :) said:


> Instead of a toll fees anyone that does not pay taxes ban them from using the roads. Take away some of the leaching off the productive. Living off welfare to lazy to get a job take away benefits tax payers pay for.


That seems difficult to implement.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

lonewolf :) said:


> Instead of a toll fees anyone that does not pay taxes ban them from using the roads. Take away some of the leaching off the productive. Living off welfare to lazy to get a job take away benefits tax payers pay for.


General tax is unfair to the users of the roads/transit. Would Mississauga pay its share of Toronto roads. Let the users pay.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

kcowan said:


> General tax is unfair to the users of the roads/transit. Would Mississauga pay its share of Toronto roads. Let the users pay.


The idea (tolls) makes sense, however, not much thought has gone into on how to collect these tolls and keep traffic flowing.

The electronic collection method makes more sense this day and age as the entrance to the DVP and the Gardner can be equipped with the same toll license plate cameras or RFID scanners as used on the 407 ETR.

Anybody using these can buy (or rent) a unique digital code assigned userid, and put that RFID device on their windshield upper left or right hand corner inside their vehicle. As soon as their vehilce passes the the RFID scan towers, the RFID chip is read, their identity and the registered vehicle/owner is identified, paY per use is recorded and the owner is billed at their registered address on the end of each month.

This is the way it should be done for the future, eliminating costly manually operated toll booths like they
have in some US cities on toll expressways. 

But this system is not infallable. Any driver that refuses to pay their monthly fee , or won't buy the required RFID identity chip cannot be excluded from using the parkways or Gardner expressway, so it isn't going to work out like they are thinking.

Besides, how are they going to deal with out of town visitors who may not have a twoonie to toss in the collection bin as they drive by or buy an RFID chip for just occassional use? 
This idea is definitey going to take a lot more thinking on how to implement it than just talking about it.

The big problem for Toronto is that the access points for the DVP and Gardner were never set up for toll booths, or pay for use, or ingress/egress access points set up to maintain traffic flow, if this toll collection is to be done manually. 

The other point is that it would be very hard for Toronto Police to enforce, if everyone using these routes catches on on how to get around the tolls.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

carverman said:


> The idea (tolls) makes sense, however, not much thought has gone into on how to collect these tolls and keep traffic flowing.
> 
> The electronic collection method makes more sense this day and age as the entrance to the DVP and the Gardner can be equipped with the same toll license plate cameras or RFID scanners as used on the 407 ETR.
> 
> ...


How it works for 407 is that you need to cough up any overdue toll charges when renewing your vehicle registration. Same as parking tickets.


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> I think a mistake is being made NOT (I think) to toll the new Champlain bridge replacement in Montreal, but that has been politicized with Quebec whining and sniveling.



lol i haven't noticed any whining or sniveling over the new champlain bridge. 

can u show us the quebec whining & sniveling? is it different from ordinary canadian whining & sniveling? _tabernacle!_

a big difference with bridges onto & off the island of montreal is that there can never be enough of them. Montreal is 100% an island entirely surrounded by water. Evacuation of the city in a disaster, for example, would be impossible.

all bridges onto & off the island are regularly rush-houred, congested, affected by vehicle breakdown, partially taken out of service. It's just a fact of life in these parts. All the more reason to make bridge traffic as cheap/free & easy as possible.

i don't know what paul chomedey sieur de maisonneuve was thinking of when he perched the first settlement on an island & named it Ville Marie. Obviously he wasn't planning for future heavy automobile traffic.

in part he would have chosen the natural fortification of an island. But in large part de maisonneuve settled montreal in a natural southward-facing harbour because it was the hub of a pre-european first nation trading route that came up the Richelieu river from native settlements in what would later become new england, new amsterdam & new york. This ancient route then crossed montreal island to head up the ottawa river & points west.

.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Carverman, you are in the 20th century when you talk about toll booths or even RFID chips. What part of my posts have you not understood? Vancouver's Port Mann bridge reads license plates and sends the bill (if there is no account) to the address on account with plate registration. As mentioned by Andrewf, there will be no renewal of license plates without account being in good order (including all ranges of traffic tickets). I beleve the BC system works with out-of-province plates too albeit in cases where it doesn't, e.g. Washington State plates, well, those folks get a free ride. The lost revenue from 'visitors' and 'tourists' is not a major setback.

The camera/license plate system can work for any road or bridge. The system can read entry and exit points and calculate the right fare to be charged to account.

The first time I used the Port Mann bridge, I got a letter in the mail showing me the charge, with options to pay including credit card, or setting up an online account with credit card on file. I chose the latter and now I never have to think about Port Mann tolls again. It works pefectly fine.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> lol i haven't noticed any whining or sniveling over the new champlain bridge.
> .


Here is the evidence. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/quebeckers-pan-champlain-toll/article18742103/ 

The decision not to toll was one of those 'buying votes' pledges via free-spending Liberal promises. http://globalnews.ca/video/2201364/trudeau-promises-no-toll-for-champlain-bridge


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Tolls are mostly done electronically now by cameras reading license plates and then billing the registered owner. Or have an online account with the tolling authority and have the tolls due from cameras paid automatically per credit card ...
> The USA has had good success with toll roads and bridges in densely populated areas. I've marvelled at the effectiveness of them and used to use them often (the majority of the time) in the cities where I lived and worked ...


I would put it at "part of the USA". 

Being used to the 407 license plate cameras and not having been on the NY State ThruWay in a long time, I drove through the toll booth then in my review mirror saw the next car putting in the toll. When I exited and explained to the toll booth person, he said it happens regularly - asked a couple of questions then confirmed what I should pay.




AltaRed said:


> carverman said:
> 
> 
> > ... The electronic collection method makes more sense this day and age as the entrance to the DVP and the Gardner can be equipped with *the same toll license plate cameras* or RFID scanners as used on the 407 ETR ...
> ...


Hmmm ... perhaps there are parts of Carverman's posts that you have missed as well?
It seems you are objecting to the perceived issues as well as keen on the license plate reading cameras to the exclusion of other method

As for me, the 407 ETR cameras are an incentive to avoid it except in a few time pressured situations. Or more accurately, the ridiculous fees for a seldom use with small fees for the distance traveled.


Cheers


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Just saying toll booths are not the methodology in any new system. Neither are RFIDs for which devices have to be mailed out, and replaced over time as they cease to function. 

I've experienced both on American highways. In Houston, I had an RFID on my windshield for almost 4 years for their toll roads which I used almost daily, and an RFID system still has to have an alternative for those without the RFID, i.e. toll booths. It costs money to install, operate and maintain toll booths. Ontario experience with 407 may simply be a distaste due to the size of the fees. 

That said, it seems the real issue in this discussion is really the objection to 'user pay'.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Just saying toll booths are not the methodology in any new system. Neither are RFIDs for which devices have to be mailed out, and replaced over time as they cease to function.
> 
> I've experienced both on American highways. In Houston, I had an RFID on my windshield for almost 4 years for their toll roads which I used almost daily, and an RFID system still has to have an alternative for those without the RFID, i.e. toll booths. It costs money to install, operate and maintain toll booths. Ontario experience with 407 may simply be a distaste due to the size of the fees.
> 
> That said, it seems the real issue in this discussion is really the objection to 'user pay'.


Yes, you are right about *ME* living in the 20th century *Altared.* I haven't used any toll roads in Toronto for many years. 
In the past 4 years, I don't even own a vehicle anymore due to my disabilty with my mobility. 

Last fall we rented a wheelchair van and drove to visit my folks in downtown Toronto. We got on the
DVP from the 401 and it was smooth sailing down to Don Mills interchange. Faster than coming in on Kingston Road with all those traffic lights.
I suppose that as an occasional visitor to TO, *I could bring a supply of Twoonies* to have my driver toss into the collection bucket, but I'm sure IF this is not the way it's going to happen in the NEW MILLENIUM...ahem....<carverman chuckles and winks>

There really needs to be an electronic low cost way for the city to im plement these tolls on a expressway that
was NEVER designed as a toll road in the first place.

From what I remember reading about the 407 ETR, (which BTW is the main bypass around the heaviliy congested 401 and QEW expressways to Burlington and beyond) 
the 407 ETR toll is based on the distance travelled on the 407.

Without a rented transponder (RFID), there is an extra camera charge for their cameras to take a picture of your plates, then they have to decode the plate number to owner address with MTO licenseing system, then 
include it as an *extra charge* to the actual toll charged.

IF Toronto plans on implementing a similar system..it will be a LOT MORE EXPENSIVE to the commuter than just tossing in a Twoonie for each leg of the their trip IN and OUT of the city core.

The other issue(s) will be HOW FAR the driver plans to use the DVP or Gardner, as there are a few interchanges along the route where the drivers can get on or off. 

A flat rate of $2 maybe it's feasible, but each user will have to pay that on a "per use" rate, or the city could cut the daily commuter a special deal where they could get a discount. 

Ok, that may work, and is a lot cheaper to implement, but then without enforcement, too many drivers will be
ignoring the toll, because they can't send a cop car after each driver that refuses to pay the toll. 

*Here's the 407 ETR fees:*
https://www.407etr.com/en/tolls/rate-charts/rate-chart-complete.html


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

carverman said:


> *Here's the 407 ETR fees:*
> https://www.407etr.com/en/tolls/rate-charts/rate-chart-complete.html


Lordy, that is one f'ked up system. Never seen anything remotely like it. No wonder y'all complain about the 407.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Lordy, that is one f'ked up system. Never seen anything remotely like it. No wonder y'all complain about the 407.


It's a MONEY GRAb since it was privatized. Same with the fomer Ontario Hydro. 
What more can be said. :greedy_dollars: 

I feel sorry for those that are still having to work inside of Toronto but iive out in the "burbs. 

Life isn't going be any piece of cake for them if they have to still drive into the city almost every day facing that snarl of traffic. Neither is the decaying infrastructure of sewers and streets. It will be a lot more expensive to live there in the next 25 years. so we haven't seen nothing yet.
The million dollar homes that used to be less than $500k, the taxes, the real estate transfer fees that will be increases soon,
and so on. The transit fees increases..parking fees, policing costs...etc...

the proposed tolls are just the beginning of a more expensive city to live in.

No wonder the condos are springing up in the downtown area on every square foot of property where they can be built.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> all bridges onto & off the island are regularly rush-houred, congested, affected by vehicle breakdown, partially taken out of service. It's just a fact of life in these parts. All the more reason to make bridge traffic as cheap/free & easy as possible.
> .


The laws of physics and economics still apply, even in la belle province. When someone is scare and in short supply, this is precisely when you should be charging for its use, to promote the efficient allocation of limited resources. The argument for congestion tolling applies whether the city centre is an island or merely across a river, like London.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> *Here's the 407 ETR fees:*
> https://www.407etr.com/en/tolls/rate-charts/rate-chart-complete.html


That link says it is corrupted and not reachable.

Went to basic site and it says about $40 end to end weekdays, $33 weekends.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> ... I've experienced both on American highways. In Houston, I had an RFID on my windshield for almost 4 years for their toll roads which I used almost daily, and an RFID system still has to have an alternative for those without the RFID, i.e. toll booths. It costs money to install, operate and maintain toll booths ...


Shouldn't the non-RFID plan be to setup license plate cameras instead of putting in toll booths?

Unless, of course - there's unions and politics involved that keep the staffed toll booths in place ... as seems to be the case for the NYS Thruway.





AltaRed said:


> ... Ontario experience with 407 may simply be a distaste due to the size of the fees ...
> Lordy, that is one f'ked up system. Never seen anything remotely like it. No wonder y'all complain about the 407.


Throw in that the province used to own it, the opening had to be delayed as despite claims that private companies do it better - initially it did not comply with safety standards plus the license plate cameras needed tweaking to work properly.

There is also that the gov't of the day that was selling that private industry did it better then sold the 407 to help with the budget on a 99 year lease. Two months apart there's the provincial gov't saying "we sold for a great price" and the CEO of the main buyer saying "isn't it great we paid $0.25 on the dollar where after the two year moratorium on fee increases elapses, then we set the fees". 

There are reports of predatory billing, false billing that takes forever to get cleared up (at one point there were so many reports of false billing that the province refused to deny license sticker validations from 2000 through to 2006) and other problems.


Other than that, what's not to like? :wink:


I believe the current owners, in order of size of ownership stakes is a Spanish company, CPP and SNC-Lavin.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

agent99 said:


> That link says it is corrupted and not reachable.
> Went to basic site and it says about $40 end to end weekdays, $33 weekends.


Weird ... it works for me.

Such fun fees as "Dormant Account Fee" $15, "Enforcement Fee" $20, "Account Fee (Camera Recorded Trip)" $3.75, "Camera Charge (Camera Recorded Trip)" $4.05 per trip, "Trip Toll Charge (camera or transponder, per each entry to the highway)" $1.00 per trip.

No details on what one gets for the $100 for "Dispute Appeal Fee" or whether it is refunded in certain circumstances.


Cheers


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Such fun fees as "Dormant Account Fee" $15, "Enforcement Fee" $20, "Account Fee (Camera Recorded Trip)" $3.75, "Camera Charge (Camera Recorded Trip)" $4.05 per trip, "Trip Toll Charge (camera or transponder, per each entry to the highway)" $1.00 per trip.
> 
> No details on what one gets for the $100 for "Dispute Appeal Fee" or whether it is refunded in certain circumstances...


Sounds like it was designed by a bank!


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eclectic12 said:


> Shouldn't the non-RFID plan be to setup license plate cameras instead of putting in toll booths?
> 
> Unless, of course - there's unions and politics involved that keep the staffed toll booths in place ... as seems to be the case for the NYS Thruway.


Perhaps the latter, but I am guessing it depends on 'vintage' of the system. Camera systems seem by far the best system. No moving parts, no devices needed inside the car, etc. The Houston tollways I was last familiar with are at least '90s vintage if not earlier and I suspect the RFIDs were an 'add-on' at a later date (speculation on my part). 

On highways that still have toll booths as the default alternative to RFIDs, I notice some entry ramps have unmanned booths with exact change only.


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

andrewf said:


> The laws of physics and economics still apply, even in la belle province. When someone is scare and in short supply, this is precisely when you should be charging for its use, to promote the efficient allocation of limited resources. The argument for congestion tolling applies whether the city centre is an island or merely across a river, like London.



u have a good point! but what i was questioning was the "Quebec whining & sniveling" accusation.

keep in mind that london england - if you mean england - can evacuate. So can nearly all other canadian cities. Montreal is 100% an island & not just the city centre either. It's a large island, about the same size as Gaza. There are still a couple of working farms in its farthest west end, although most of the island has been urbanized since WW II.

the debate goes that, because montreal is an island therefore emergency evacuation has high importance, tolls on the champlain would simply mean diversion of traffic to other toll-free bridges & to the lafontaine tunnel, also a toll-free crossing. But all these other structures are already at their traffic limits. They cannot accommodate additional vehicles.

a big part of late afternoon radio news comes from helicopters hovering over the bridges, reporting which bridges are still moving & which are blocked by traffic to workers trying to leave the city at the end of each workday. The workers need to reach their homes in off-island exurban communities.

blame the 13th & 14th century iroquois who insisted on using the island that jacques cartier would name hochelaga - the island that later became montreal - as a commercial hub for far-ranging north/south/east/west trading expeditions. Furs from the sub-Arctic. Walrus tusks. Bone implements. Leathers. Copper from the US south. Tools. Shells from as far away as the carolinas. Dried fish. Seeds. Grains. Long before europeans arrived.

.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It's as simple as waiving tolls during emergencies, no?

Congestion is a good argument for tolling, to help incentivize users to drive off-peak if possible (deliveries, for instance) or to encourage them to use a different mode of transport (metro, bus, carpool).


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Eclectic12 said:
> 
> 
> > Shouldn't the non-RFID plan be to setup license plate cameras instead of putting in toll booths?
> ...


From what I recall, the NY State Thruway had "exact change only" and "express card" booths that were unmanned, in addition to the manned cash or card booths. For the smaller exits I used, all three were rolled into one manned booth.


Where there are no booths in existence, I suspect the cameras are the way to go as they don't look any more difficult than setting up some extra signs ... though it would have to be across the start, end points as well as everything in between. 




kcowan said:


> Sounds like it was designed by a bank!


With the province taking the private consortium to court over bad billing and steep toll increases ... is this a surprise?
The CEO comments in the annual report just after the sale clearly were showing this type of future.


Cheers


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I would expect that there will be a political backlash if the toll proposal as mentioned by the current Toronto mayor is implemented.
Unlike the 407 ETR which was designed right from the get go as a Toronto bypass toll expressway, that was not the case for the DVP and Gardiner expressways. 

Back in the 50s, there wasn't the amount of traffic using it as there is now. the steel infrastructure supports on the Gardner were new and didn't need maintenance. Nobody thought about what it would be like 60-70 years "down the road", like it is now with ten times the traffic use.

It wasn't that long ago that I remember that the steel support columns on the Gardiner had to
be repaired due to rust from winter salt over the years and that probably was an expensive undertaking these days for the city.

Maintenance is a key component of these elevated highways. Some of us may remember the overpass/tunnel collapses in Montreal in 2011due to rusted bolts and lack of maintenance, not that long ago. 

Article about the Montreal tunnel collapse:


> We built extensively and in a hurry and the result was that we did not have the same quality control on them as should have been exercised,” said Mirza, adding that *much of the infrastructure now eroding at 40 years old should have lasted 75 to 100 years.
> *




https://www.thestar.com/news/canada..._collapse_a_lesson_to_the_entire_country.html


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We drove from The Beach to The National Yacht Club in September on Lakeshore in my buddy's convertible and I had a bird's eye view of the underside. The maintenance is an ongoing expense. (Google Maps told us to go that way! No mention of hard hats.)


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Some fairly good points made by David Booth in the Ottawa Citizen today, and they don't even get into the costs of maintaining the system of cameras, billing, collection, employment, etc.



> .......perhaps the environmentally-deluded think that suburbanites will actually rejig their entire careers so they no longer need to commute downtown? Even the most isolationist of 416ers — you know who you are, Neil Vorano — can’t believe this is going to significantly alter driving habits.





> ....a fixed-rate toll, no matter how small, is a regressive tax, affecting the janitor travelling to his minimum wage job much more than the hedge fund manager.





> ...in almost all applications I’ve seen, a toll road has been supplementary to a main, existing artery. The 407, for instance, is an option to those travelling east/west across the Toronto core. Those preferring to avoid traffic can pay their fee. Those — and judging by the congestion on the 401 compared with the sparse traffic on the 407, they are the majority — choosing to avoid the surcharge brave the traditional route. Indeed, virtually all tolls roads are optional, not mandated dictum.





> ....as the constructors of the new Champlain Bridge in Montreal recently discovered, if there is a choice, commuters will take their business, er, driving, elsewhere, a recent study by Transport Quebec suggesting that the proposed $3.00 toll on the new bridge will increase traffic on the nearby (and free!) Victoria Bridge by some 25 percent.





> ...almost certain to be a series of rapid price hikes once the toll is enacted — decide to do the same. With no highways other than the Gardiner Expressway and Don Valley Parkway offering access, their only alternative route would be Toronto’s city streets.


ltr


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> Those preferring to avoid traffic can pay their fee. Those — and judging by the congestion on the 401 compared with the sparse traffic on the 407, they are the majority — choosing to avoid the surcharge brave the traditional route.


I could see many cutting off 401 early and heading down Victoria or others to Kingston Rd or Danforth, both of which are already congested. As well as to the other city roads that head N-S between 427 and DVP. Maybe the $2.00 wouldn't make them do that, but paying $2.00 to park on DVP would get my goat


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

agent99 said:


> I could see many cutting off 401 early and heading down Victoria or others to Kingston Rd or Danforth, both of which are already congested. As well as to the other city roads that head N-S between 427 and DVP. Maybe the $2.00 wouldn't make them do that, but paying $2.00 to park on DVP would get my goat


That is the point. Enough people would get off DVP (to avoid the toll) to make it driveable again. Those that thinned out the DVP may try congested streets for awhile but many would then default to taking mass transit when that alternative is not feasible either. There is always some chaos for awhile when commuters are pressured to change their habits.

After a year or two bogged down on the QEW and Gardiner, I started using the GO train. People sometimes need to be hit over the head with a baseball bat to get out of their cars.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> Some fairly good points made by David Booth in the Ottawa Citizen today, and they don't even get into the costs of maintaining the system of cameras, billing, collection, employment, etc.


Maybe ... but then again, he seems to think adding an additional irritant to commuters won't convince them to move closer to work.

I met a lot of people in the late '90's who said the lost time, aggravation and *cost* was why they were over-paying for condos closer to work.


Cheers


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Here is the evidence. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/quebeckers-pan-champlain-toll/article18742103/
> 
> The decision not to toll was one of those 'buying votes' pledges via free-spending Liberal promises.
> 
> http://globalnews.ca/video/2201364/trudeau-promises-no-toll-for-champlain-bridge




wondering how any of that can be interpreted as "whining and sniveling" though. Let alone "Quebec whining and sniveling." 

in addition, i disagree that the no-toll stance was any kind of vote-buying ripoff. In the runup to the october/15 election i never heard any toll-the-champlain-bridge issue even being mentioned in quebec.

i sincerely hope you are not suggesting that campaigning for election by your own favourite political party is legitimate, while similar campaigning by parties you do not favour is unethical "vote buying."

the MP for my riding is currently the Minister of Transport. In other words, he's right in the eye of the champlain bridge funding storm.

during the 2015 election campaign, Marc Garneau never discussed the champlain bridge issue. He did not "buy" votes with this or any other issue. 

garneau has a spotless lifelong record of public service in canada, first in the military, then as astronaut, aerospace director, university chancellor, senior politician & statesman. In this riding, garneau is extraordinarily popular with all voters, not just liberals. He's something of a hero role model for young persons.

i'm saddened that you would smear garneau's party - presently the government in power - or his issues as transport minister.

.


----------



## Nelley (Aug 14, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> That is the point. Enough people would get off DVP (to avoid the toll) to make it driveable again. Those that thinned out the DVP may try congested streets for awhile but many would then default to taking mass transit when that alternative is not feasible either. There is always some chaos for awhile when commuters are pressured to change their habits.
> 
> After a year or two bogged down on the QEW and Gardiner, I started using the GO train. People sometimes need to be hit over the head with a baseball bat to get out of their cars.


Maybe-but that is not the goal-the goal is to get more money somehow-Tory said this openly-all levels of government have as the first priority growth in spending-everything else is secondary. This toll is bad for some taxpayers, good for others-certainly preferrable to an income tax increase.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Nelley said:


> Maybe-but that is not the goal-the goal is to get more money somehow-


That is how I see it. Objective is to get money to help cover maintenance on DVP & Gardners. But in doing so they will push traffic to other already overloaded routes which in turn will need maintenance and upgrades. In the end, money gets frittered away on toll administration and no long term problem is solved.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> I could see many *cutting off 401 early and heading down Victoria or others to Kingston Rd or Danforth*, both of which are already congested. As well as to the other city roads that head N-S between 427 and DVP.


That wouldn't be a solution, as there are far too many traffic lights on Kingston road for commuters to get off the 401 coming in from the eastern part of the GTA. 

It would just move the congestion to another part of the city if the commuter works downtown as the streets on Danforth are narrow with parking on both sides...that would add another half hour or more to the commute. Certainily somebody's time is worth more than $2 toll. 

The other issue for commuters coming into the downtown core/business district from the western parts of the GTA/Mississauga/ etc is they have to use the 401 to 427S and a bit of the QEW to get onto the Gardner. 
Lakeshore is a very slow route to be of any use during rush hour.

While some may deliberately avoid the DVP and Gardner if the tolls actually happen, they will very quickly discover that the only easy and faster way to get downtown, is by using those two expressways...but the cost of maintenance is rising every year. 

Toronto really got themselves into a traffic delema by cancelling the Spadina Expressway instead of finishing it and not continuing with plans to extend the eastern part of the Gardner to meet with the 401 where Kingston
road is now. Those two cancelled expressways would have taken a lot of pressure off the DVP. 



> The Spadina Expressway, planned since the 1940s, was cancelled in 1971 after being only partially constructed. After the Spadina cancellation, other expressway plans, intended to create a 'ring' around the central core, were abandoned.


 Now all they have to show for it is the Allen Road short express way, that dumps 401 traffic onto Lawrence. 

Gardiner repairs. 


> Meanwhile, after a series of incidents involving falling chunks of surface concrete, engineers taking a closer look at the 7-kilometre elevated roadway warned last year that the deck needed significant work. Council in January okayed a 10-year repair plan





> The end result is an increase of $19.4 million —* for a total of $662.7 million.* And completion is now targeted for 2025 instead of 2024.


https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...sway_repairs_to_cost_more_and_take_longer.htm


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> After a year or two bogged down on the QEW and Gardiner, I started using the GO train. People sometimes need to be hit over the head with a baseball bat to get out of their cars.


OK that explains a lot AR!:congratulatory:


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Not building the Spadina Expressway is seen as a victory for the city. Sure, it would have made it easier to get downtown, but it would have really damaged the fabric of downtown and made it a much less desirable place to be.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Not building the Spadina Expressway is seen as a victory for the city. Sure, it would have made it easier to get downtown, but it would have really damaged the fabric of downtown and made it a much less desirable place to be.


I agree. I lived in TO when the decision to halt that monstrosity was made.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I watched government of the day throw away millions of dollars of investment in the interchange (known at the time as the basket weave) to satisfy tree huggers. Eventually there would have been a 40x highway headed north relieving the load on 427 and the QEW. Too bad the government is run by politicians rather than traffic engineers...


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Looks like there is more money grab by Toronto city council in the works. Now with gasoline going up 5 cents a litre because Saudi Ariabia has agreed to cut production, and Wynne's carbon tax (2 cents a litre) starting Jan 1/2017, it will be a LOT more expensive to live in the city than it already is.




> City staff on Tuesday released a list of 12 potential revenue tools that councillors on the executive committee will get a chance to debate next Tuesday.
> 
> Possible new taxes include:
> 
> ...


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...able-at-executive-committee-meeting-1.3645296



> The measure that would take longest to put in place is road tolling, the report states, which could be three years in the making and generate up to $377 million annually.


No mention of the Land transfer tax (city portion, not the Ontario lTT) increase.. but with so many flipping homes, it's bound to be increased as well sooner or later.
*



The average price for full-detached house in the 416 area was nearly $1.35 million, up 32.3 per cent

Click to expand...

*


> from the same time last year while the comparable type of house in the 905 area had an average price of $957,517 — up 25.5 per cent.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-house-prices-rise-1.3878104


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

kcowan said:


> I watched government of the day throw away millions of dollars of investment in the interchange (known at the time as the basket weave) to satisfy tree huggers. Eventually there would have been a 40x highway headed north relieving the load on 427 and the QEW. Too bad the government is run by politicians rather than traffic engineers...


 All this BS talk about global warming & wanting to get off oil is not good for the country investing in refining our own oil. egotistical tree huggers think were so powerful we can change climate


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

lonewolf :) said:


> All this BS talk about global warming & wanting to get off oil is not good for the country investing in refining our own oil. egotistical tree huggers think were so powerful we can change climate


The less we burn here, the more we can sell abroad!


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

There is a contradiction though. Our government wants to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. But it also says Canada needs to produce more oil (that will be burned)


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Not necessarily. We're looking to grow our marketshare in oil production.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Exactly. We are not increasing the pie, just taking a larger share.


----------



## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

james4beach said:


> But lonewolf, I pointed out that taxes are a mis-match for the critical roadways like the Gardiner. The City of Toronto is responsible for paying for repairs, but many of the users are not Toronto taxpayers. It would be unjust to raise Toronto property taxes to pay entirely for this.


This happens in every major city, not just Toronto...people live just outside city limits and commute to the city for work, shopping, entertainment, etc. Perhaps a more fair way to pay for city roads would is to have a greater share of provincial taxes allotted to city roads to ensure that those outside the city pay their fair share.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

bass player said:


> This happens in every major city, not just Toronto...people live just outside city limits and commute to the city for work, shopping, entertainment, etc. *Perhaps a more fair way to pay for city roads would is to have a greater share of provincial taxes allotted to city roads to ensure that those outside the city pay their fair share*.


Do you mean a greater share of the current HST or some other additional tax?

Toronto is considering an additional municipal sales tax added onto the HST (*0.5% up to perhaps 2%*)

The problem with that is that all the point of sale terminals will have to be updated again to collect this
municipal tax separately from the HST and remitted separately to the city coffers.
1million in sales x 2% = $20,000 thats a fair chunk of revenue coming into the city just on spending
and shopping inside Toronto city limits. 

However, that would be done at some considerable expense to business as each sales register or invoice has to be upgraded (electronically) to reflect the additional municpal tax.

IE: 5% to the Feds (if it still remains at 5%)
8% to the province 
13% sales tax on each dollar spent on goods and services.

Now what happens if Wynne decides to raise the PST portion from 8% to 9% or even possibly 10%,
as the province is hungry for money and running a growing deficit?
The Toronto Municipal tax (if implemented), could change the tax burden from 13% to as much
as 15%, 16% or even more.

Add this to ever increasing hydro rates and carbon tax (heating) taxes...and the average homeowner
living within the Toronto city limits wil be feeling more financial pain digging deeper into their pockets
to pay for all these taxes they are planning. 

What's the sales taxes Quebec / Montreal right now? 
January 1, 2013 – present	*9.975%*

Assuming 5% GST and 9.975% QST = 14.975% (just .025% shy of 15%.
If Toronto decides to implement an additional municipal sales tax, the total tax collected on every
taxable item or service could be as much as 15.0%


----------



## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

carverman said:


> Do you mean a greater share of the current HST or some other additional tax?


I was referring to the provincial taxes allocated to road work...after all, city residents pay provincial taxes, too.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

kcowan said:


> Exactly. We are not increasing the pie, just taking a larger share.


How would we take a larger share? Our oil is expensive to produce. Only reason to build pipelines to get our oil to markets is so we can produce more. The Pie, as you call it, is not of a fixed size. If hydrocarbons are more readily available, price in some parts of world will drop and more will get used. Simple economics. 

I still see a conflict - we want the world to burn more of our oil. And we want to help stop global warming. Just doesn't add up.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

For the most part demand is demand. It doesn't go up just because Canada produces more oil. It means Canadians are taking market share from someone else and to the extent Canada can be considered a reliable supplier, customers will prefer to buy their oil from Canada than from someone who is NOT as relaible, or has human rights issues, or is not environmentally conscious. 

Example: There is no reason to buy Nigerian oil over Canadian oil given their reliability issues and perennial spills caused by tribal groups drilling holes in pipelines and siphoning off oil for black market purposes, or simply sabotage. 
Example: There is also no reason to buy Russian oil given their aggressive stance in today's world and their use of oil as hostage (to Europeans), and yet no one thinks twice about Russia's environmental record producing 11 million barrrels of oil per day.

Canada produces about 4 mllion barrels per day of oil in a world with a demand of 95 million barrels of oil per day and which globally must replace in the order of 4-5 milion barrels of day of natural decline every year with brand new production. Whether Canada produces 3.5 or 4.5 million barrels per day of oil gets lost in rounding error. People who think Canada makes a difference globally in the climate change debate are terribly misinformed....but that is how the greenies want it. Misinformation, if not blatant lies.

So, yes, it does indeed add up. There should be applause for Canada increasing its oil production at the expense of other rogue nations.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> For the most part demand is demand. It doesn't go up just because Canada produces more oil.


If Canada and USA increased oil and refining production and gasoline went down to $1.00/gallon. Don't you think we would drive our cars a bit more. And not worry so much about conservation? 

If Canada puts more oil in world market, same thing as if Opec do it. Price goes down and less incentive to conserve and consumption goes up. Same for any product. Or maybe my Economics 101 prof was wrong


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

If enough goes in, of course increased supply chasing the same demand would result in lower prices. 

But you may not have taken Econ 201. An additional 0.5-1.0 million barrels per day of oil from Canada grown over a period of likely 3-5 years (at best) makes no difference in a world where 4-5 million barrels per day of new production must be added annually just to keep global production flat. I repeat. Canada's contribution is a mere ripple in a stormy pond.

Added: And that is if it is even truly incremental production. Much of what the additional pipelines will move is oil that likely otherwise already moves by rail. Be realistic. If companies can make a buck increasing oil production, it will move to market... by pipeline, rail or truck. Greenies should focus on reducing demand. It is not the supply of oil that is the prblem. It is consumption and we are all guilty.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> Canada's contribution is a mere ripple in a stormy pond.


You are right that Canada's contribution to global oil supply and global greenhouse gas production, is just a small drop in a large bucket. But that is no argument against my original point which was about those who wish to have things both ways.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

agent99 said:


> You are right that Canada's contribution to global oil supply and global greenhouse gas production, is just a small drop in a large bucket. But that is no argument against my original point which was about those who wish to have things both ways.


Only in your mind. The onus to reduce emissions is on those who emit, not those who produce fossil fuels. Canada is responsible for what it burns, not what it pumps.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Only in your mind.*The onus to reduce emissions is on those who emit*, not those who produce fossil fuels. Canada is responsible for what it burns, not what it pumps.


Who decided on whom the onus lies? Just something you decided in _your_ mind? It's a bit like Canada exporting Asbestos to developing countries. Do you think we should do that when we know it can affect the heath of those who buy it? 

The current method of evaluating pipeline proposals includes environmental impact - which is an improvement. But it has been criticized by smarter people than you or I for not taking into account the downstream effects of the increased production that new pipelines will encourage.

This article may be worth reading: https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...fSgy5kGvgZnYkQ&bvm=bv.139782543,d.cGc&cad=rja

By the way, I spent my life in the oil, chemical and petrochemical industries. Often addressing difficult environmental issues. I do understand that our government has a difficult challenge to try and balance economic stability with environmental responsibility. Unfortunately, this seems to require talking out of both sides of their mouths.

And while I am on a roll  - If some are worried about tolls on the DVP - What would GTA residents think of a heavy oil tanker terminal being built on their shoreline to handle tar sands oil? I live on Lake Ontario, and can feel for those protesters in Vancouver. 

Heading out - last post on this thread because this discussion hijacked the original thread and it was my fault!


----------

