# Buying a house without a home inspection?



## Romy (Jan 14, 2015)

This year in Toronto, it's almost impossible to buy a house with a home inspection. Very quickly, sellers received many offers, and bidding wars are the norm. In this climate, sellers rarely sell the house to a potential buyer who's asking for a home inspection. Why should they when 10 other people are interested in buying the house right away, no conditions?

Would you ever buy a house in Toronto without a home inspection? That seems like a bad idea. It also seems like the only way to buy a Toronto home.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Romy said:


> This year in Toronto, it's almost impossible to buy a house with a home inspection. Very quickly, sellers received many offers, and bidding wars are the norm. In this climate, sellers rarely sell the house to a potential buyer who's asking for a home inspection. Why should they when 10 other people are interested in buying the house right away, no conditions?
> 
> Would you ever buy a house in Toronto without a home inspection? That seems like a bad idea. It also seems like the only way to buy a Toronto home.


Home inspections are a relatively new thing. In past we never had them. One of the problems with them, is that inspectors don't have experience is all aspects of inspection. They are often trades people with a background in one trade. So not much use having a carpenter or mason inspect the electrical or plumbing. I attended a number of house inspections when a friend was buying a home. I wasn't impressed with the way inspections were done or reported. 

If you can't get an inspection done, you need to educate yourself to do a thorough pre-purchase inspection yourself. One other thought, would be to include a condition of getting mortgage approval. Then have the inspection as a condition of the mortgage approval.


----------



## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

When we bought our house, neither one of us had experience with building or renovating homes, so we would have missed a lot of must-have information. If you are not experienced in building, get a friend or relative who is to come with you.

I have also heard stories of people getting home inspections done before they make an offer, so they don't need to make a conditional offer.

But right now, houses in Toronto are too expensive for my taste, so I would not buy, anyway.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Many home inspections, in my experience, aren't worth the paper they are printed on. A lot of ex realtors, poor tradesmen, etc. Are all attracted to these jobs. Don't get me wrong, there are a few really good ones, but most are nearly worthless. 

The only real benefit is you have an unemotional outside set of eyes looking at your place, generally only on the surface mind you, most have a clause which states they won't even move a ceiling tile unless there is evidence of a leak.

It's really not that hard to emulate a building inspector in most cases...are the roof shingles flat and new or starting to curl? You can buy a plug tester for $10 at a hardware store, plug it into every outlet to make sure the wiring is proper. Look for signs of water damage in the basement, walk around the place, are there soft spots in the floor, uneven patches under the flooring, etc. Look at the ceiling for signs of wall removal, look under the sinks for signs of leaks, look at the plumbing, the electrical (copper or aluminium?), etc.

Try to keep your emotions in check and take a critical eye to the place...is the paint new? How were the repairs underneath (you can't hide patching very easily) take a light and shine it sideways along the wall. How old are the appliances, furnace, hot water tank? Do the floors squeak or move?

Outside, does the landscaping flow away from the house or is there settling? Is the chimeney in good shape? Cracks anywhere? Do the doors rub when you close them? Windows new? Are the wall straight? Does the roof sag? 

The main problem with homeowners is they fall in love with the place right off the bat and downplay any faults they find. Most people can spot problems most of the time, it's usually fairly obvious when things are wrong, the problem is people don't want to walk away because they really want the house.

The really funny part is, most people will walk away from a really good house because they don't like the paint, or it's really dirty and buy a house with structural issues because it looked really nice on the surface.

Of course, the first thing they do in either case is usually paint and redecorate...making their objections to the good, but ugly, house rather meaningless.


----------



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> You can buy a plug tester for $10 at a hardware store, plug it into every outlet to make sure the wiring is proper.


That does not even remotely make sure the wiring is proper. What a dangerous statement. It will find certain faults, but way more can be f'd up than these will show up.

JAG, you are usually quite reasonable with your advice, but this is a complete miss.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Many home inspections, in my experience, aren't worth the paper they are printed on. A lot of ex realtors, poor tradesmen, etc. Are all attracted to these jobs. Don't get me wrong, there are a few really good ones, but most are nearly worthless.
> 
> The only real benefit is you have an unemotional outside set of eyes looking at your place, generally only on the surface mind you, most have a clause which states they won't even move a ceiling tile unless there is evidence of a leak.
> 
> ...


If you have the time to spend looking at all the details of the potential home at the time when the real estate take you through a tour..you would be extremely lucky to catch everything that may not be right for the current codes. 

Wiring, plumbing, roof leaks (are you going to crawl up in the attic or crawl space with a flashlight to check for leaks?)...no..you will be lucky to spend a few minutes in each room and look at the floor and 4 walls.....
as you move on from one level to the other, distracted the RE.

Mike Homes (Holmes on Homes) has made a fortune "making things right again" after the new home owners bought a serious compromised shodilly repaired home..,mold behind bathroom walls, wet insulation etc...kludged wiring...

While it is true that a home inspector may NOT catch everything during his more detailed inspection and assessment...it still be money well spent,* because any seripus defects can be negotiated in the final purchase price. * If you go without it..you are stuck with the consequences.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> That does not even remotely make sure the wiring is proper. What a dangerous statement. It will find certain faults, but way more can be f'd up than these will show up.
> 
> JAG, you are usually quite reasonable with your advice, but this is a complete miss.


I have 75% aluminum wiring in my house.

These circuit testers mentioned, just indicate that the neutral and live and ground are where they should be
at each duplex plug. Most aluminium wiring is completely safe with the right duplex plugs (cu/al) and copper pigtail stubs to the receptacle with the proper marrettes. The danger of any duplex receptacle lies with plugging in a heater device that *exceeds the rating of the duplex receptacle*, causing overheating and possible fire inside that receptacle.

All this can be avoided (if alumimum wiring is involved, ) is to hire a certified electrician to provide the necessary wiring code upgrade at each duplex (called pig-tailing), receptacle to meet current electrical standards (about $800-$1000) for the complete job, and a ESA inspection after that...$100. All homes must have breaker main panels these days. 
If the home in question has a fuse panel, it will have to be replaced by a breaker panel at considerable expense
to the current or NEW home owner, if the fire insurance company asks for a full inspection. 

The ESA letter will satisfy any insurance company squeamish about insuring a home with aluminum wiring.

BTW, in my home ,the dryer/stove and any heavy use applance (AC) are on COPPER wires.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

hboy43 said:


> That does not even remotely make sure the wiring is proper. What a dangerous statement. It will find certain faults, but way more can be f'd up than these will show up.
> 
> JAG, you are usually quite reasonable with your advice, but this is a complete miss.


I didn't mean it to sound sufficient, just on par with what I've seen from home inspections.

It was meant to save you $3-500 for false peace of mind.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Romy said:


> T Why should they when 10 other people are interested in buying the house right away, no conditions?
> 
> Would you ever buy a house in Toronto without a home inspection? That seems like a bad idea. It also seems like the only way to buy a Toronto home.


I hear ya. Back in the 70s, I bought an old 80+ year old brick home in the Danforth-Woodbine area of Old Toronto, with a private lane way to park my car, and an old wooden garage behind it. The house was no bigger than 20ft x 20ft on each floor, Tiny kitchen, dining/living room with ancient knob and tube plugs..no third ground connection. It came with 2 bedrooms and an old bathroom upstairs at that

Mind you in `72 it sold for $25,300...A DOWN PAYMENT today! I spent thousands modifying it with new electrical ( came 60 amp fuse panel, rented hydro hot water tank and (yes knob & tube wiring. I had to put in a 3 piece in basement, new gas furnace, new copper plumbing (later on in the 90s, as my mother and middle brother now have lived there for 20 years..CORRODED LEAD WATER PIPES from street, and new roof etc, etc...

At the time I was looking at it to buy, there was no time for a home inspection as there was another offer pending. I didn`t want to buy a home where I had to park on the street in the winter.


----------



## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

My sister bought her first home in Calgary last year and she hired an inspector to do the home inspection and he found couple of things. As a result of that inspection, the seller lowered the price by 1%. I think the cost of inspection was $500.


----------



## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

My cousin's home inspector (recommended by us) flagged the furnace for further inspection, which turned out to have a cracked heat exchanger that was leaking carbon monoxide. 

But I agree that all home inspectors are not equally adept - if you do get it done, do your homework and get the best (not whoever your realtor recommended).


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

scorpion_ca said:


> My sister bought her first home in Calgary last year and she hired an inspector to do the home inspection and he found couple of things. As a result of that inspection, the seller lowered the price by 1%. I think the cost of inspection was $500.


You don't need a home inspection to point out flaws and negotiate a lower price. You can always come back with a list of deficiencies you find and negotiate yourself.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

scorpion_ca said:


> My sister bought her first home in Calgary last year and she hired an inspector to do the home inspection and he found couple of things. As a result of that inspection, the seller lowered the price by 1%. I think the cost of inspection was $500.


A proper home inspection by a QUALIFIED inspector may give credible facts to the negotiation process between the seller and buyer..
however, it depends a lot of what is wrong...serious defect affecting the new buyer from moving in (ie: cracked heat exchanger on older model of gas furnace, black mold due to moisture in basement) etc, or simply cosmetic issues that put the home on the "would be nice to have it fixed/repaired"

In the hunts for my homes in the past, I learned a lot from each purchase, and didn't hire a home inspector. I didn't experience any serious show stopper problems either because of that either.
Fixed whatever I didn't like about the home/property after living in it for a while.

Back tp the reduction in the negotiation price of 1%....on a 300K listing ..1% is $3k. On a $500K listing that's about $5K...which should be enough of a reduction to pay for a new gas furnace, PluS the cost of the home inspection.

I don't understand with CO detectors being so cheap these days, why home owners don't have at least 2 of them located at strategic places in their homes.

I have one CO detector directly above a floor heating vent, and the other in the basement next to the furnace.

My gas furnace is now 20 years old..still going strong for me, and free of CO. But because of it's age,it WILL be a 
price negotiating item (along with my16 year old HWT OWNED tank)...when I go to sell someday.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> You don't need a home inspection to point out flaws and negotiate a lower price. You can always come back with a list of deficiencies you find and negotiate yourself.


I agree with you "to a point" JAG, ..however.... timing of the sale and possession is every thing as they say. 

You cannot do a thorough inspection at the time of viewing with a real estate agent, but you should have a notebook with items that you can* check off as satisfactory for negotiating the purchase*
OR
requiring further inspection as a CONDITION OF CLOSING THE SALE.

FOR SERIOUS HEALTH DEFECTS (furnace or roof leaks), plumbing issues,a qualified inspection may be necessary, and that can be worth the price of the inspection in itself. Avoids costly lawsuits if it has to go that far.

Most sellers will agree to a subsequent inspection...as long as the items are satisfied on the purchase contract and the sale of the home is not unnecessarily delayed for the seller. 

I wouldn't want to engage squabbling over non health issue items. Some of these can be disclosed on
the clauses of the initial purchase contract.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

For those who think you can DIY home inspection, good luck. That's like any other DIY; mechanics, renos, accounting, Wills.....with the proper research, yes it can be done, but would you really trust yourself?

A home inspection is what it is. Sure there are horror stories out there but there are many good inspectors out there too. I'd say there are more horror stories of people who tried to DIY their own home repairs vs home inspection mishaps. Essentially, a good home inspection will pay for itself. Even if you don't get a price reduction, you should get some good advice out of it regarding maintenance tips for cost efficiencies. 

So should you buy without a home inspection? I certainly don't recommend it. I could understand the bidding war situation so my advice would be to not buy during the busy season. It's sad that the realtors think about their pockets before their clients' best interest.....


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Old homes are money pits. Trudeau and family can't live in the PM's official residence because it needs so much work.

The sweet spot for homes is 10 years old. The problems have already popped up and been fixed or are clearly visible.


----------



## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> You don't need a home inspection to point out flaws and negotiate a lower price. You can always come back with a list of deficiencies you find and negotiate yourself.


Maybe for an experienced guy like you but it's tough to find a problem for a first time buyer. The asking price was $349k but she offered $350k but didn't get the house. Other buyer could not manage the financing and she got a chance to increase the price to $355k. After the inspection, the seller lowered the price by 1%.


----------



## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

You can't go back on the home inspector, so what is the point? They are literally following a checklist and doing an inspection that doesn't not run further than the walls, or anything you can move out of the way. They're not worth the paper they're written on.

That being said, I wouldn't buy a house with out it being one of the conditions. Make sure it is a part of your conditional offer, such that YOU can thoroughly go through the home. This also gives you an additional out on your conditional offer. Upon initial viewing, if you see anything that stands out, then bring a specialist along with you for that specific matter -- cover the rest yourself. Anyone and their brother can count windows, check seals, check plugs, count outlets, check for water damage, etc. I have seen a bunch of home inspections and all of which were extremely useless and nothing you can't do yourself. 

If you're worried about mould, hire a specialist.
If you're worried about electrics, hire a specialist.
If you're worried about plumbing, hire a specialist. 

Get yourself a plug tester, flashlight, laser thermometer, and you're well on your way. I took a collaboration of a few home inspections, and developed my own comprehensive check list. If you're lazy or find yourself completely overwhelmed -- then hire it out. I think this is a basic task like changing oil on your car. You can either:

A) Put in a modest bit of effort to learn the process, and do it yourself.
or
B) Pay someone else for their effort. 

It seems to be the biggest scam going, right in line with a real estate agent.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ag Driver said:


> You can't go back on the home inspector, so what is the point? They are literally following a checklist and doing an inspection that doesn't not run further than the walls, or anything you can move out of the way.
> They're not  worth the paper they're written on.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ????????????????????



http://www.totalhomeinspection.com/totalhomeinspectionchecklist.pdf



> That being said, I wouldn't buy a house with out it being one of the conditions. Make sure it is a part of your conditional offer


 $250-$500 if you hire experts in their separate fields of expertise.
If you're worried about* mould, hire a specialist.* $250 minimum
If you're worried about *electrics, hire a specialist.[* $150 minimum
If you're worried about *plumbing, hire a specialist.* $150 minimum

So at this point you are spending about $500 + hst for 3 expert opinions.
If you are worried about condition of the roof and any LEAKAGE, hire a roofing specialist and get a free quote.
If you are worried about condition of furnace call a heating contractor to do a free inspection. 



> Get yourself a plug tester, flashlight, laser thermometer, and you're well on your way. I took a collaboration of a few home inspections, and developed my own comprehensive check list. If you're lazy or find yourself completely overwhelmed -- then hire it out. I think this is a basic task like changing oil on your car. You can either:
> 
> A) Put in a modest bit of effort to learn the process, and do it yourself.
> or
> ...


It all depends on the current homeowner...will they put up with experts bothering them to crawl and snoop on practicall
everything in the house? Flat roofs can have hidden leakage around the edge flashing.


----------



## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Carverman, don't try and take things out of context and cherry pick.

Thank you for supporting some of my key points though and posting a very simple checklist where many (all) items can be done by yourself. 

I didn't not say hire a specialist for every bloody aspect of a home. Use some common sense and make an informed purchase. I will give you an example of when a specialist may be necessary. 

Ex. You see discoloration at the base of the walls in the basement, and it smells a bit off and is muggy. Your first thought is there is a possible mould issue. On your designated home inspection day, you bring along a mould specialist to do some proper lab analysis. I can tell you right now, 95% of the home inspectors out there are not worth a DIME, not a DIME, for mould. You require a professional analysis, not some joe blow that took a course and received a piece of paper who is giving you his/her opinion. 

I could give you a list of common sense items that would be involved in prompting a specialist ... but it really goes on. You must use your best judgement backed by a bit of research. Things like seeing knob and tube in wiring, poking your head in the attic and seeing a portion of the roof discouraged from a water stain, pooling water in the front lawn. You name it. The vast majority of home inspectors are literally going down a list and doing what you can do. As I stated.

I will end on a final note. If you are not willing to learn a bit and put your best foot forward to make an INFORMED purchase in the 6 figure amounts -- you deserve to get screwed. 

Try suing a home inspector when you go to do some renovations and the walls are littered with mould. They will tell you to pound sand. When you get angry and take them to court...guess what? The judge will tell you to pound sand too. I will say this again, they are NOT worth the paper they are printed on.


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

As I see it, whether to commission a home inspection or, further, whether to retain a gaggle of experts in various fields - eg. plumbing, roofing, HVAC, structural engineers, geotechnical engineers (say the house is on sloping or other "difficult" property, etc.) - depends to a large extent on how much of the purchase price being offered is directed to improvements on the land, rather than the land itself. 

I have bought a number of houses in Vancouver over the years that have been very old and where the value was in the dirt, not the house. So I have not wasted money on inspections. 

For example, in 1979 I bought a house in Kerrisdale for $110,000. The house was a 1,200-square-foot bungalow on a 60-foot lot, built in 1914. It had a "stone" basement, knob and tube wiring and even an amateur could spot that it had 3 roofs on it. The roof that showed was aging asphalt shingles. It looked a bit lumpy. Under that was another asphalt roof, then a cedar shake roof, perhaps the original. Vancouver building bylaws allowed 3 roofs max., so the next one would be expensive, requiring stripping and probably replacing some structure. The plumbing was mostly copper, but again, even casual inspection revealed that what galvanized remained was the stuff that would last longest, but be most difficult to replace. It had an oil furnace that was over 50 years old. The windows were wood frame, single glaze. The BC assessment value at the time was land - $90,000, improvements - $14,000. I would have felt rather silly getting inspections done and asking the vendor for the cost of making good the roof, the wiring, the plumbing, etc. The market then was just starting to heat up after a few quiescent years. I rather doubt the vendor would have agreed to knocking $30,000 or so off the price to allow me to remediate. 

I lived in that house for 10 years. Sold in 1989 for $525,000. Sold because it was getting to the stage where all that was wrong with it when I bought it was coming home to roost. In the years I owned it, I refused to spend money on a wartime bungalow that would still be just a wartime bungalow, no matter what I put into it. So I spent the minimum to keep it liveable. By 1989 it was time to put serious money into a complete re-do or, better, tear it down and rebuild. I considered both and ruled them out. I decided to buy something newer. The people who paid me $525,000 did not get a home inspection. They paid land value, so why would they? If they had told me that place needed major work and they wanted a discount, I would have told them to pound sand. They eventually tore it down (or someone did). I was a bit surprised at how long that took. I still lived in the area and it was some years before I went by and saw it gone one day. Someone else managed for quite awhile to put up with the leaky roof and windows and other issues that were starting to manifest when I sold.

I have bought my share of houses and never paid for an inspection. Well, one exception. I had an inspection for termites once when buying in southern U.S. I have never had a bad experience. With one exception, the houses have been older and I always take into account there might be some repair issue soon to arise that I must be prepared for. I have never had any unpleasant surprises, unlike what we see every week on that TV show (which looks like it's filmed in Toronto) called "Income Property", where there is a disaster behind every wall, in every ceiling and under every floor. 

I think the time I would want an inspection would be on a purchase at, say, $2 million, where $500,000 is for the land, $1.5 million for the improvements, thus likely quite new construction. Unless Mike Holmes had been the general contractor, I would want an inspection by someone like him to tell me if that $1.5 million building was done right.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Ag Driver said:


> Carverman, don't try and take things out of context and cherry pick.
> 
> Thank you for supporting some of my key points though and posting a very simple checklist where many (all) items can be done by yourself.
> 
> ...


I think your judgement is a little off, possibly due to a bad experience. Don't throw all home inspectors under the bus because some can actually teach you a thing or two.
Its great you can do your research and all but you can potentially find yourself like those DIY home renovators that Mike Holmes talks 'so highly' of. Maybe you know a thing or two about homes, but don't go around thinking you know it all and certainly don't expect everyone else to follow. 

So you think a wall discoloration, a smell a bit off and mugginess is the result of mold which a mold specialist will solve your concern? What if the discoloration was caused by efflorescence? Then who do you hire? What if I tell you the smell and mugginess can be solved by simply correcting some ducts and ventilating the basement? That would save you the cost of a mold and air quality test, a foundation specialist and an HVAC technician. 

Its great that you think you can detect deficiencies. But can you correctly diagnose them? What caused the deficiency and how do you correct it? Is it really a problem or not?

I think you underestimate the expertise of a good home inspector. Don't get influenced by the stories you hear because just like everything thing else, you only hear the bad stories that make good gossip.........you never hear about the good stories or experiences.


----------



## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I think if you know a lot about construction you can know a lot about the house you are buying but generally you are not impartial. I find the checklists used by building inspectors to be very useful to be thorough while you are falling in love with the granite they are checking the attic for mold. 

I think the people who have experience overestimate the level of knowledge of the general public. 

People I know have had items they didn't consider be pointed out to them and got a reduction on the purchase price for them. If you're not in Toronto, you'd be better off.


----------



## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Mortgage u/w. Are you suggesting a "good" home inspector can do all the wonders? Even if they allegedly can ... are they liable, and will they be held accountable if they are wrong?

If you're answer is no, which it is, then the "inspection" is not worth the paper it is written on. Simple as that. 

Of course I am not suggesting I know everything. Nor does a home inspector. At some point you must entertain some form of risk. It is all about risk mitigation. You are not mitigating ANY risk by paying someone for an outside opinion on the matter if you have done your homework.

Be an informed buyer, and be critical. Take your significant other out for a $500 date night instead. You will sleep better at night, at the very least for one night.


----------



## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Ag Driver said:


> Mortgage u/w. Are you suggesting a "good" home inspector can do all the wonders? Even if they allegedly can ... are they liable, and will they be held accountable if they are wrong?
> 
> If you're answer is no, which it is, then the "inspection" is not worth the paper it is written on. Simple as that.
> 
> ...


Home inspectors are not gods but considering a home is a several hundred thousand dollar purchase, they are worth the $300-400 it cost to hire them. While you may be very experienced at evaluating property, most people are not. 

Any repair they notice will likely cost more than they cost. Are you suggesting every person that buys a home doesn't need any guidance what so ever. 

So your home inspector will not perform invasive tests, and they will miss some things and you won't be able to sue them, but for most people they are a valuable resource.

NB. Home Inspectors do not cure cancer or nausea.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Nobody is a miracle worker. And yes, a home inspector is liable and accountable if they are wrong. 

The cost of a home inspection is such a tiny fraction of your home purchase. Why would you want google to give you the answers rather than someone who has the required skills? You can do your own taxes if you are well informed but in some cases it is wiser to hire an accountant. Home inspection should be viewed the same way. 

What skills does a general contractor have? How does he know the work that was performed by his sub-contractors is accurate? Yet you will trust him to build you a house - or will you google that as well and build your own house?

All I'm saying is not to knock all home inspectors and the merits of an inspection. This misconception that one can do some research and get an equivalent result is what gets most people in trouble. I won't change your opinion and that's fine. To each their own.


----------



## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Berubeland said:


> Are you suggesting every person that buys a home doesn't need any guidance what so ever.


Case in point.

There are 2 kinds of people that I outlined in my previous post (#18)

There are people that will make an effort to be informed on their 6 figure or better purchase, or their will be people that will pay for the effort.

Study up, or pay up. But at the end of the day, a home inspection is NOT required unless you do not wish to be informed about your purchase. Because at the end of the day, the home inspector has no string attached in terms of giving you advise. They can say that everything is perfect on a rotten, insect infested, sparking, environmental disaster, CO2 emitting, mouldy POS .... and guess what, at the end of the day -- You bought it and it is yours! No pinning that advise on anyone but yourself! 

You get what you pay for, and when you pay for a home inspector, you pay for NOTHING when it comes down to a day in court.


----------



## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Mortgage u/w said:


> And yes, a home inspector is liable and accountable if they are wrong.


I am certain that you and I both know the difference between a latent defect and a patent defect. Patent defects, being one that can be reasonably discovered using one of the 5 senses and a touch of common sense. This is largely what I feel a normal human being can accomplish with a checklist. The vast majority of home inspectors are seeking out patent defects. It is largely the latent defects that are the deal breakers. It is the latent defects that home inspectors lack any value what so ever. This requires a specialist. They are not liable or accountable for latent defects. You are paying them to take a look around and give their "professional opinion". This is very limiting in a legal sense, and very limiting on a latent defect. 

Any informed, normal human being can assess a patent defect. It does not require a "professional", or $500 unless you simply do not wish to make an informed purchased.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Ag Driver said:


> I am certain that you and I both know the difference between a latent defect and a patent defect. Patent defects, being one that can be reasonably discovered using one of the 5 senses and a touch of common sense. This is largely what I feel a normal human being can accomplish with a checklist. The vast majority of home inspectors are seeking out patent defects. It is largely the latent defects that are the deal breakers. It is the latent defects that home inspectors lack any value what so ever. This requires a specialist. They are not liable or accountable for latent defects. You are paying them to take a look around and give their "professional opinion". This is very limiting in a legal sense, and very limiting on a latent defect.
> 
> Any informed, normal human being can assess a patent defect. It does not require a "professional", or $500 unless you simply do not wish to make an informed purchased.


Since you know what a latent defect is, you should also understand that it is undetectable - that's why its called 'latent'. Not even a specialist can detect defects such as mold, improper wiring or plumbing behind closed walls, UNLESS of course, there is a visible defect that can lead to its discovery. So yes, a home inspector is seeking visible defects ONLY and is properly trained to seek out such defects - Lets put aside the mickey mouse home inspectors you know for a minute.

A home inspector is accountable for defects he missed if it can be proven they were visible or detectable at the time of the inspection. For example; a roof cavity with insufficient insulation, non-conforming ducts or improper ventilation causing mold to grow (or potentially grow) on the deck - this is detectable. If a home inspector does not note this in his report, then he is liable for it. Since you seem to be well informed, do you carry a ladder with you when visiting a home and do a thorough inspection of the roof cavity? Or do you assume that all is good because you did not see any curled roof shingles?

If saving $500 on a $750k purchase makes you feel comfortable and satisfied, then so be it. But don't go around telling people to google house inspection and DIY. Majority of people don't know anything about homes and their construction. There are experts out there to properly inform you.


----------



## Bowzer (Feb 25, 2015)

It's still a sellers market in Toronto. You do what you gotta do. If that means rolling the dice and not doing a home inspection... well, you roll the dice. 

I'd buy a home without inspection if it meant my offer was more attractive and helped me get the house. Losing out on an offer is soul crushing. I've known people that have lost on 10.

I was allowed to do a home inspection on my house before I bought it, but we opted to not use anything he found in negotiation, for fear of losing the house. This is a house in the 416 and there were multiple offers on it. 

It did give us some things to fix which were added to the list of renovations. To that end, the same thing could have been accomplished if we just bought the house and had the house looked at after we owned it.

We just celebrated our 2nd year of owning the house, and I can't put a price on the time we've had here. If we lost on the offer and had to keep looking, those additional months and emotional draining would have far outweighed whatever cash the renovations took.


----------



## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Since you seem to be well informed, do you carry a ladder with you when visiting a home and do a thorough inspection of the roof cavity? Or do you assume that all is good because you did not see any curled roof shingles?
> 
> If saving $500 on a $750k purchase makes you feel comfortable and satisfied, then so be it. But don't go around telling people to google house inspection and DIY. Majority of people don't know anything about homes and their construction. There are experts out there to properly inform you.


I most certainly did bring a ladder, flashlight, outlet tester, thermal reader, notes on code, full comprehensive checklist, and a crew of trade friends. This was a quarter mil out of my pocket that I was about to be on the hook for. I wanted to be informed. I wanted to learn and be well versed in my investment. I wanted to know what expenses to expect that are in short and long term. I wanted to know what I was getting myself into.

I think we are speaking the same language here. You can either be an informed buyer, or pay someone to inform you. I find it extremely bizarre that one would NOT want to be informed about such a large purchase. There is absolutely nothing wrong with me promoting buyers to inform themselves on a purchase, do their home work, and become their own "expert". 

When it's all said and done, If I am not given the opportunity for a home inspection, I wouldn't touch the house with a 10' barge pole. There isn't one house out there that is worth it to me to blindly purchase due to pressure or risk of losing the sale. This, to me, is too much risk. As soon as you, as a buyer, are pressured or start incorporating emotion into the purchase, you become vulnerable and make irrational decisions. You hear it almost every day on this site regarding other investments (such as stocks) -- remove the emotion. Why is a home any different?


----------



## Prospector (Jul 25, 2014)

My ideas with regards to the need for Home inspectors have changed over the years. Also my idea of what really matters in an inspection have changed as I became more familiar with the systems in a house, the costs to repair them, and my own abilities to DIY. 

The first house bought was only a year old, covered under a Tarion Warranty (worthless) and in very good condition. This was before HI's were a thing, and we bought without an inspection. We had no issues.

The next house was a 1930's shack (ok, maybe shed) with rotting sills and a failing roof. It had a single leg of a 30 AMP service, wall heaters, galvy plumbing, and knob and tube wiring. I bought it so cheap, I couldn't justify asking for an inspection, and even young me could see the work the place needed. Over the course of the next 5 years and a subscription to Fine Homebuilding (and their forums) I redid all the plumbing & electric on the house, re-roofed it, resided it, and installed a basement. While the shack was pretty unusual to live in, I learned a lot, and it doubled in value for my efforts. I am still not sure if I made enough to pay for the renos, but the learning was priceless. 

From there I moved to the GTA (York Region) and had a heart attack at house prices. Converting our gains on the previous house to a downpayment meant buying at the bottom again, and we took the best deal we could find, waiving the inspection in order to stretch pennies. This turned out to be a mistake. The house was on a crawlspace with foundation drainage issues and a mouldy roof. Moisture was so bad the kitchen cupboards fell off the wall. The sliding doors to the patio would only open in the summer since the frost heaved the house so badly. The floor in the laundry room would also rise and fall with the seasons. We didn't stay long, and fortunately the new tenants also waved inspections.

Having learned from that experience, we hired a HI when we bought our next house - on a country acreage - again in Durham Region, it was an owner-built Viceroy with lots of quirks that made it unique including walls that had been opened up using barn beam, and a filled lot with a creek/watercourse through the property. Our HI (recommended by the agent) went through the house, refused to go on the roof, and then handed us a report with the recommendation that we not buy - too much outstanding work. Reading through his checklist, the outstanding work didn't look very daunting at all to me. A number of double-tapped circuits (so I put in a pony panel), efflorescence on the unfinished basement walls (so I removed the downspouts from the foundation drains and had them scoped and cleaned out), and the scariest piece of all - that the barn beams were delivering a point load to the floor where the previous wall had been a distributed load, obviously compromising the structure of the house (I blocked out the stud bays below the beams and put in a 2X6 wall to support the load across the basement floor below). None of these items were a surprise to me, and none particularly noteworthy since I could fix them all fairly simply despite how scary they sounded in the report. I wonder if the agent was hoping the report would dissuade us from buying so he could upsell us to a more expensive home.

When we bought our current house, there were no items that scared us. The foundation has some spalling and could use a coat of parge. Despite not having any scary items, I did order an inspection - of the chimney, specifically stating in the offer that the fireplace was to meet WETT certification. It failed, and the HO brought in a contractor to replace firebrick and the top few sections of flue liner. He also replaced the chimney cap.

In my opinion, the need for a inspection is on a case by case basis. There are houses so good, and so bad, that an inspection is a waste of time. For me it is the inbetween houses - the maybe's - that the inspection is valuable for. I don't see it as a negotiation tool (although it certainly can be used that way) as much as a way to inform myself of what I am buying.

I find it unnerving that there is no regulating body for HI's in Ontario. Certainly there are a number of companies who claim to regulate the industry, but each of them has differing requirements and credentials and different levels of involvement with the trade. And then there are the independent inspectors who could be anyone's uncle. I looked up the requirements to become an inspector a few years ago, and at the time, I would have qualified with one body, despite having absolutely no formal training in construction or home systems. This is scary.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Ag Driver said:


> I most certainly did bring a ladder, flashlight, outlet tester, thermal reader, notes on code, full comprehensive checklist, and a crew of trade friends. This was a quarter mil out of my pocket that I was about to be on the hook for. I wanted to be informed. I wanted to learn and be well versed in my investment. I wanted to know what expenses to expect that are in short and long term. I wanted to know what I was getting myself into.
> 
> I think we are speaking the same language here. You can either be an informed buyer, or pay someone to inform you. I find it extremely bizarre that one would NOT want to be informed about such a large purchase. There is absolutely nothing wrong with me promoting buyers to inform themselves on a purchase, do their home work, and become their own "expert".
> 
> When it's all said and done, If I am not given the opportunity for a home inspection, I wouldn't touch the house with a 10' barge pole. There isn't one house out there that is worth it to me to blindly purchase due to pressure or risk of losing the sale. This, to me, is too much risk. As soon as you, as a buyer, are pressured or start incorporating emotion into the purchase, you become vulnerable and make irrational decisions. You hear it almost every day on this site regarding other investments (such as stocks) -- remove the emotion. Why is a home any different?


I could definitely agree with you here. It is very wise to be an informed buyer and if you are capable to do it yourself (as you did) then I applaud that. However, not everyone can or will do what you did. We can all agree that it is unwise to blindly purchase a home. If you do, well you need to live with the consequences.


----------



## Super_Chicken (Sep 27, 2013)

I recently bought a house in Toronto late last year and we were able to get is inspected. The inspector we used was fantastic, recommended from a friend; very thorough and knew his stuff. The entire inspection took just over 2 hours. I wouldn't buy any home without an inspection, especially older ones.


----------



## tendim (Nov 18, 2010)

Romy said:


> Would you ever buy a house in Toronto without a home inspection? That seems like a bad idea. It also seems like the only way to buy a Toronto home.


As with everything, "it depends". We _just_ finished buying a house. With newer houses we were okay putting in a bid without a home inspection. With older houses, we usually had a friend (who does renos for a living) give the house a once-over before we put our bid in. There should be nothing stopping you from having an inspection done _before_ you put in your offer. If you have a condition, you would have paid for it anyways. If the seller does not want to allow that, I would walk away as they look to be hiding something anyways.


----------



## AlMansur (Jan 25, 2016)

I have bought properties mostly with Home Inspections, bar one exception, which my agent recommended wasn't necessary. The latter, was a property about 6 years old and seemed in good condition. There were multiple offers, but I took a chance with no Inspection. It was risky, but I was fairly confident, and luckily that turned out to be true.

Now I would ALWAYS recommend a Home Inspection AND Financing Condition. It's possible do the Inspection before making Offer, esp if there's multiple offers. 
With such high prices in GTA, it makes sense to be careful and do some due diligence work.


----------



## noobs (Sep 27, 2015)

Never.
That $500-$1000 may save you $10k-50k.
Think about it you're ready to invest in a 150k+ property and you wanna cheap out on an extra $1000?
I have used a guy that is called when the city has law suits going, he's an expert and charges twice a normal inspector, is he worth it? every single penny and I will use it again.


----------



## bpcrally (Sep 12, 2010)

I never thought I'd buy a house without a home inspection, but now we might have to make that decision.

We've put in an offer on another home with the home inspection as a condition. We lost out on this house, not because of the condition, but its still certainly a frustrating market for a first time buyer. 

Now we've found another place of interest, offers will be reviewed tonight. Our agent is urging us to drop the conditions for this one as its a newer home (around 10 years), and obviously ones without conditions will likely be considered before the ones with conditions.

Not sure what to do, I didnt get a bad vibe from the place and it seemed to be really well taken care of.. but I'd really prefer the piece of mind of having an inspection done. 

So this isnt a matter of cost, its a matter of making sure we have the best offer.. Not sure what to do. I guess we will wait and see how many offers are on the table later today and make a decision then. I may just request home inspection and risk losing the place.


----------



## FinancialFreedom (Aug 18, 2015)

It depends on how much knowledge you/your friends have. I got a home inspection on my first home. Big waste of $500. As an electrician I was hoping he would point out other things that I might not know about or think of, but during the whole inspection I was the one pointing things out to him, and he didn't bring 1 single issue up to me. I wouldn't get one again as I would just walk through it with a few friends from other trades and make note of everything we see, but if you don't have the knowledge or know people who do, I would get an inspector. I would not SKIP the home inspection to make my offer look better. As shitty as it is to miss a house because your offer was rejected because of an inspection clause, I'd still rather miss out then be the one who skipped the inspection to have my offer inspected and then something happen a year down the road that will cost me $50,000 to fix.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

We always offer conditional to an inspection, but we do the inspection ourselves. I grew up having houses constructed around me by my father (master electrician), understanding the bones and systems, and my husband has several trades. We've renovated several houses, know the side effects of problems when we see them, and easily recognize cover-ups. We can recognize and see the same as an "inspector", often more.

The most interesting thing about it is developing a greater education regarding buildings. For example, learning the differences between houses with poured basements vs. stone walls, vs. houses on piers with a crawlspace because bedrock is at the surface. Age is also interesting when determining construction styles, materials, and what to look for. We have a 113 year old house unaltered, a 70 year old unaltered, a 70 year old with a 10 year old addition, and a 43 year old we are about to alter. Like people, each one is different in many ways.


----------



## RentGera (Apr 28, 2016)

In a hot market like Toronto it doesn't make sense to put a home inspection as a condition if there are offers with no conditions. Instead, bring someone that's knowledgeable about properties to the viewings. In my opinion, renting is currently a better option in Toronto.


----------



## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

In today's market, don't waste your time if you want a condition. If I were a seller, I would not even look at any offer with condition. Even if it's $20k more, you run all kinds of risk of liability. 

These days, most go with unconditional cash offers. If you have a condition, yours is one of 10 offers received that will get rejected first.


----------



## Durise (May 16, 2016)

This is indeed a very bad situation in Toronto. I don't know what's wrong with those people who becomes interested to buy a house without home inspection. It's indeed a very high risk to purchase a home without inspection. And I'll never buy a house this way.


----------

