# Use of Masks.



## agent99

This is a very interesting interview with George Gao, director-general of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) (PhD from Oxford!)

Not wearing masks to protect against coronavirus is a ‘big mistake,’ top Chinese scientist says

Not just about masks, but about how the Chinese handled the epidemic.

Anyone know where to buy masks - even non surgical ones? Like the ones we see many Asians wearing?

I do have three N95 masks. One is from 3M. The other two are made in China and called GOLD. The masks are actually designated N95v (I suspect the V may designate the valve that they have) The GOLD package of two cost me $2.99! These are intended for use when painting or doing other work that produces fine particles or droplets. We may use these when we go out, but just wondering if others have found sources of masks, other than home made.









Sorry - This forum software doesn't have a way to rotate image.


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## sags

Very informative video.

It looks to me that if they are labelled as "respirator" masks they should be protective. They also have to fit snugly to face.


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## agent99

That is a dated video and that guy is not really qualified to advise us. Do we see medical people using those large respirators? I have one and they are very cumbersome. I have used it when doing some serious sanding of toxic paint. But for use while shopping or otherwise in public? No way.

It seems that authorities are now moving toward having everyone wear masks. But so far no guidance as to which type and where we might be able to get them.

This article provides some data on effectiveness of different types.
Face masks for COVID-19: A deep dive into the data
(Not very well written and hard to decide which types might be available and work for us now). 

So what do we do? For now, I guess my wife and I will use the N95s we have and try to re-use using methods provided here in another thread.


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## m3s

agent99 said:


> Do we see medical people using those large respirators? I have one and they are very cumbersome.
> 
> It seems that authorities are now moving toward having everyone wear masks. But so far no guidance as to which type and where we might be able to get them.


I searched respirators on amazon just to see what's available and in the US those large 3M masks have this message

"Prioritized for hospitals and government agencies directly responding to COVID-19 in the U.S."

US military and government are now confiscating stockpiles and transports of N95 masks for frontline workers

If anything I'll just wear a buff style gaitor. I own lots of them and they're very comfortable. They also show up on amazon when you search for respirator

Probably doesn't filter as good as N95 but also does seal better to the face than the surgical style masks.


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## agent99

m3s said:


> I searched respirators on amazon just to see what's available and in the US those large 3M masks have this message
> 
> "Prioritized for hospitals and government agencies directly responding to COVID-19 in the U.S."
> 
> US military and government are now confiscating stockpiles and transports of N95 masks for frontline workers


I looked and saw a couple of Amazon ads with that statement. Have you ever seen a health pro wearing one of those bulky respirators? Maybe first responders for fires? I don't think that is the type that 3M are having trouble sending us. More likely these (taken from a health site asking for donations of masks). Same as one I have.


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## sags

An Ontario company has already developed a similar mask to 3M's N96 mask. It is being tested for government approval.

Premier Ford set aside $50 million to help companies retool to manufacture medical equipment. It looks like a wise move on his part.

If approval is granted, the company should start producing masks in bulk in a few days. Ford says they will be capable of supplying all of Canada.

Hopefully we will soon see the masks on the shelves.


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## m3s

agent99 said:


> I looked and saw a couple of Amazon ads with that statement. Have you ever seen a health pro wearing one of those bulky respirators? Maybe first responders for fires?


Yea disposable makes a lot of sense. You would have to disinfect those masks to reuse them

With the military CBRN masks you decontaminate them in a soapy water tub then rinse and hang dry.

In a hospital the disposable gloves and masks would be a lot more convenient


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## Prairie Guy

agent99 said:


> Not just about masks, but about how the Chinese handled the epidemic.


No one really knows for sure how the Chinese handled the pandemic...all we know is the official party line, which is probably far from the truth.


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## Mukhang pera

Well, at least COVID-19 seems to be more durable and longer-lasting than most of what is made in China. Give credit where due.


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## andrewf

Prairie Guy said:


> No one really knows for sure how the Chinese handled the pandemic...all we know is the official party line, which is probably far from the truth.


That is speculation. It's not as if there aren't non-Chinese journalists. I don't disagree that the CCP puts spin on things (as does the US), but they aren't hiding 10 million corpses or whatever conspiracy hypothesis you might want to promulgate.


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## Plugging Along

We had ordered some reusable masks off amazon earlier last month. They still haven’t arrived. They are still made in China and are not N95 but are better than nothing. Originally I bought them in case one of the people on my family get sick to protect the rest or at least all of us aren’t sick at the same time. 

While waiting for them to arrive, I have followed the diy no sew options on line using a bandana, and elastics. Also, I found one using blue shop towels which I found several studies that are saying a double layer is up to 95% effective and bonus you can actually breath. I am in the process of making a few and then disinfecting them in my oven as they are good for up to 8 wears. 

There are also a few local people who are sewing these masks and sellIng them. These options aren’t perfect but I will be playing around with combinations Soon.


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## m3s

andrewf said:


> I don't disagree that the CCP puts spin on things (as does the US), but they aren't hiding 10 million corpses or whatever conspiracy hypothesis you might want to promulgate.


China announced new lockdowns due to another wave of infections. US is just as guilty of spin. It's hard to recognize if it's what you want to hear and don't have any other perspectives. Pointing blame is poor leadership imo



Plugging Along said:


> While waiting for them to arrive, I have followed the diy no sew options on line using a bandana, and elastics. Also, I found one using blue shop towels which I found several studies that are saying a double layer is up to 95% effective and bonus you can actually breath. I am in the process of making a few and then disinfecting them in my oven as they are good for up to 8 wears.


A neck gaiter or "buff" is basically a bandana with built in elasticity. You can get thick, thin various material online from microfiber to merino. You could even add the folded shop towel underneath if you want


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## Plugging Along

m3s said:


> China announced new lockdowns due to another wave of infections. US is just as guilty of spin. It's hard to recognize if it's what you want to hear and don't have any other perspectives. Pointing blame is poor leadership imo
> 
> 
> 
> A neck gaiter or "buff" is basically a bandana with built in elasticity. You can get thick, thin various material online from microfiber to merino. You could even add the folded shop towel underneath if you want


I think I have a few of those already, but I didn’t know if it would be as effective. I like the idea of putting a shop towel in though. I will have to find my buff and see how it works.


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## james4beach

The CDC does recommend using even home-made masks in public. They have some instructions here: Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)



> CDC recommends wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain (e.g., grocery stores and pharmacies), especially in areas of significant community-based transmission.


Any mask is likely better than none. I've been wearing dust masks when I go into stores because that's all I had. I plan to add an additional layer on the inside of my dust mask to strengthen the barrier a bit.

I'm also planning to start using a homemade fabric mask, either according to the CDC instructions or something else made from old t-shirts.


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## m3s

james4beach said:


> I'm also planning to start using a homemade fabric mask, either according to the CDC instructions or something else made from old t-shirts.


Scarf, keffiyeh/shemagh, balaclava, bandana, neck gaiter/buff. Should all do about the same as an old t-shirt

I tried them all for motorbiking and the knock off buffs are very comfortable and like 5 for $20. You can machine wash em and less fiddling around to put them on/off

Or one of the following


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## andrewf

One thing I don't get is the gloves. I think they are just about useless. Just wash your damn hands.


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## Plugging Along

M3S. Thanks for the chuckle. I feel whatever I come up with will be better than the ones you posts. I did quite like the snorkel. There is a guy in my city that has been wearing his inflatable tricetops Halloween costume on walks.  It’s been in the news and quite entertainment. The other day a few more people joined in the walk to make a little parade down the sidewalk. I would guess they were and good 5 meters apart when you accounted for the costumes.


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## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> The CDC does recommend using even home-made masks in public. They have some instructions here: Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> 
> Any mask is likely better than none. I've been wearing dust masks when I go into stores because that's all I had. I plan to add an additional layer on the inside of my dust mask to strengthen the barrier a bit.
> 
> I'm also planning to start using a homemade fabric mask, either according to the CDC instructions or something else made from old t-shirts.


You are right that something is better than nothing, but there some materials that are better than others. Anything too breathable or porous is not as good. Some really old shirts are less effective. 



andrewf said:


> One thing I don't get is the gloves. I think they are just about useless. Just wash your damn hands.


They are good if you are touching multiple items for protection for yourself. Also, if you are hand sanitizing/washing often in an outing then sanitizing your rubber gloves is less harsh on your hands. 

The recommendation is that you wash your hands well before putting the gloves or mask on, just before you are taking off the mask, and immediately after is the proper procedure. I also sanitizer my vehicle when I first get in, the shopping cart, and when I have been touching items. Hand sanitizing your gloves is a lot easier. It is a pain though.


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## newfoundlander61

Taiwan has the lowest cases and deaths of any country and implemented a rationing system that allocated citizens two masks a week. So it seems like wearing a mask is a good idea to help them control the outbreak.


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## Retired Peasant

Not all N95 masks are the same. I tried donating the few that I have, but was told they wouldn't take them. So I'll use them myself. Some are not 'medical' N95. I believe the 8210 you have is.


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## agent99

james4beach said:


> I'm also planning to start using a homemade fabric mask, either according to the CDC instructions or something else made from old t-shirts.


In one of the links (maybe above?) tests were done on different types of materials. Tee-shirt fabric was only 5% effective, Sweatshirt much better - 30-40%? These vs 95% for N95 mask. Somewhere on-line (CBC, I think) I read about double ply home made masks - they used a cotton inner layer and polyester outer layer - the plans were from Ontario hospital, I believe.
A bandana might work to some extent. This lovely lady tells you how. If you leave youtube on, there are more instruction for masks. Many others too on-line. Problem with all, is that they may not be very effective and may give you a false sense of security. Better to stay at home if you can.


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## cainvest

Plugging Along said:


> There is a guy in my city that has been wearing his inflatable tricetops Halloween costume on walks.


Saw a T-Rex out for a walk yesterday.


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## agent99

cainvest said:


> Saw a T-Rex out for a walk yesterday.


This guy went Christmas shopping:









Alligator strolls through empty Myrtle Beach shopping center


See ya later … everyone but alligators. A gator in Myrtle Beach had this beach shopping center all to himself after most non-essential businesses closed on April 1 amid coronavirus. South Car…




nypost.com


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## Longtimeago

There are problems with the general public all wearing masks. 

First, most home made masks will offer little if any real protection. Second, suggesting it be done assumes there are enough effective masks available to provide them to everyone. Third, they can give people a false sense of security and can also allow people to self-justify not staying home as much as POSSIBLE.

There is no point in saying, 'wear a mask' if we do not FIRST have enough for all front line workers. Hospital, first responders etc. first and then those at higher risk through multiple interactions, like the people working in the supermarkets. There are a whole lot of people who should be being provided with masks before the general public should be. In FACT, there are simply not enough masks available for it to be practical to say to the general public, 'everyone should wear a mask.'

Just wearing a mask even an N95 mask does not make you safe. First you have to know how to actually fit one properly. Then you have to still not touch your face. You've probably seen the videos of people wearing masks but constantly adjusting them, pulling them up and down etc. They might as well not be wearing one and in some cases it is only resulting in them touching their faces more than they would be when not wearing one.

People just go on trying to find ways to go out in my opinion. The most effective way for anyone to fight this virus is to stay home. Next is physical distancing if you MUST go out. Then comes not touching your face and repeatedly washing your hands. Masks are well down the list of the most effective ways for the GENERAL PUBLIC to fight the virus.


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## :) lonewolf

They keep telling us we got to be like communist China so they have complete control.


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## s1231

m3s said:


> Or one of the following


WOW! very creative 
We need a good reliable information.
Then it could be more utilizing our abilities toward this society.
Anyway, leave some links here may some people interested.
---
Disinfection guide - ResMed (PDF)
- Disinfection or sterilization and drying

***Note: Only masks listed in the table below have been validated for reprocessing between patients.

1. Using a certified hot water disinfection system, soak the disinfectable mask components using a temperature-time combination1 : ISO 15883-1:
• 158°F (70°C) for 100 minutes
• 167°F (75°C) for 30 minutes
• 176°F (80°C) for 10 minutes
• 194°F (90°C) for 1 minute.
2. On completion, remove the mask components from the hot water disinfection system.
3. Allow the mask components to air dry out of direct sunlight.

*** if using house hold materials (pillow, bed sheets etc.) would be good to put direct sunlight.
--





__





Sanitizing with Sunlight: the Best Disinfectant Know - Sunlight Institute


By: Marc Sorenson, Sunlight Institute– Is sunlight the best disinfectant? Through serendipity, I happened on an article called Natural Alternatives to ...




sunlightinstitute.org




Is sunlight the best disinfectant?

In reality, it has long been known that sunlight is a powerful disinfectant and bactericide. As early as 1877, researchers discovered that sugar water left in the shade became cloudy, indicative of bacterial growth, but if exposed to sunlight, it remained clear.[3] In 1890, the German microbiologist Robert Koch (who had isolated and described the tuberculosis bacterium in 1882), showed that sunlight killed TB bacteria.[4] Later on, research showed sunlight also killed E. coli bacteria in twelve feet of seawater and in waste stabilization ponds.[5] [6] [7]
---









The Best Way to Clean and Disinfect N95 & KN95 Masks – Smart Air


Data shows using soap and water or alcohol to disinfect masks significantly reduces effectiveness. This method disinfects without harming performance.



smartairfilters.com




Will Drying Masks Work for Covid19?
The study above is for H1N1 (influenza A), not the coronavirus. The researchers said results should be similar for other influenza A viruses, but they stopped short of saying they’re valid for all flu viruses.

....They did not test cloth, but the closest material to a mask was cardboard. It took 48 hours for the coronavirus to be completely non-viable on cardboard. On stainless steel, a tiny amount of viable coronavirus remained at 72 hours, That’s 7 times longer than the earlier study found for H1N1.

Based on these two studies, leaving a mask to dry for 48 hours should be enough to kill coronavirus, SARS, and influenza A viruses. Leaving masks for 72 hours would be even more conservative.

However, it is important to remember that virus survival time is not a universal constant like the speed of light. Several factors will influence how long viruses survive:
---









Is Washing Masks Effective After Virus Exposure?


With widespread mask shortages, is washing masks a solution for re-using N95 masks? We tested mask particle capture effectiveness before and after washing.



smartairfilters.com




What’s a Reliable Way to Disinfect Masks from Viruses Without Harming Effectiveness?
Testing Mask Filtration Effectiveness
....Although the mask was used for over a week, it still very captured 99% of particles. This fits with previous Smart Air results where masks retained effectiveness nearly unaffected after being worn 11 days, 20 days, and even 30 days.

However, washing the mask was much worse than natural “aging.” Washing decreased particle capture by 21%.
---









Do DIY Cloth Masks Protect Us From COVID-19? – Smart Air


Researchers built DIY masks from household materials and tested their effectiveness vs. sub-micron particles. Results found they blocked 60% of particles.



smartairfilters.com




*** ( may improve more % with other materials + create better fit - I think)


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## Money172375

I’m still surprised that the world wasn’t a little better prepared. There have been enough movies to show what may occur.

for example.....would they not have “gamed“ out the scenario of limited mask supplies......it’s only now that Dr.Tam is advising hospital workers to keep their used masks while they figure out how to treat and re-use them.

I’m obviously no expert, but running out of supplies during a pandemic seems like a possible scenario that should have been thought of.......along with possible secondary measures to broaden supply.


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## agent99

s1231 said:


> Is sunlight the best disinfectant?
> 
> In reality, it has long been known that sunlight is a powerful disinfectant and bactericide.


In an article from an N95mask manufacturer, I read that masks should NOT be left in sunlight to dry. Apparently UV or maybe it was something else, causes the polyester used in the mask to lose it's hydrophobic properties. This in turn reduced the effectivesness of the masks.

In another link 3M explains why masks should not be disinfected by a number of methods: https://www.apsf.org/wp-content/upl...ion-of-3M-Filtering-Facepiece-Respirators.pdf

It's a complex situation that hopefully we wil get some guidance from, from qualified people/organizations.

I plan on using my own N95 masks. But infrequently. They will sit for 4 days at least, or be put in oven at 70C for 1/2hr.


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## Parkuser

:) lonewolf said:


> They keep telling us we got to be like communist China so they have complete control.


The Communist World Government already has total control, achieved by the contrails spreading electronic dust. They spread the virus to cull the numbers of the Chinese, Europeans, and Americans. They keep their population safe by letting loose 500 lions on the streets of Moscow.


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## m3s

Money172375 said:


> I’m obviously no expert, but running out of supplies during a pandemic seems like a possible scenario that should have been thought of.......along with possible secondary measures to broaden supply.


Hah! We definitely thought of it but the majority ignore it like climate change

You should read up on all the other known issues we chose not to prepare for. I suspect after this the people will demand the government stock masks at great expense while refusing to instead do things that prepare in more intelligent ways. Go watch the Bill Gates TED talk from 2015

People will always cry why didn't the experts see this coming.. while ignoring the experts on anything else


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## james4beach

Yeah people just ignore dangers. It reminds me of living in Oregon; I was pretty scared of earthquakes. I went to the trouble of getting enough emergency supplies (water, food, batteries/chargers, NOAA weather radio with emergency standby, etc). But any time I asked anyone, people truly did not care about the earthquake danger. Some people said "we all die when it's our time" and others said "I try not to think about it". Eventually, the west coast (BC, WA, OR) will get an absolutely massive earthquake so any rational person should want to prepare supplies. Very few do.

Interestingly, it was usually parents with young children who seemed best prepared for the earthquake danger. They were consistently the ones who had plans and preparation.

By the way, I remembered something else when moving out of Oregon. This one is really tragic (for me). Because I had foreseen the danger of a major disease outbreak (plus danger of rubble and dust from earthquake) my emergency kit actually had a pack of N95 masks, medical gloves, alcohol cleaning pads, etc.

When I was moving a few months ago, in perhaps my worst decision of recent years, I just gave my whole med kit including the N95 masks to a neighbour. I hope he's happy now. I worried they would get crushed if I shipped them with other heavy goods.


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## s1231

more people wear mask - slowdown spreading
also DIY mask could have around 60% own protection or Doubling the layers of material will increase more protection would be beneficial in current situation.

p.s.
I can't edit the post #26. Page 1 has shown 3 vertical dots but page 2 doesn't.


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## m3s

Here's an example of a US military document about pandemics that shows none of this was unforeseen

It warned a pandemic could impact the military for 24 months. It lists coronavirus having no known vaccine and the shortage of ventilators and medical PPE (ie masks)

Not realistic to be perfectly prepared for everything. I think at least having food and PPE production within your own country would cover many situations


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## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> I’m still surprised that the world wasn’t a little better prepared. There have been enough movies to show what may occur.
> 
> for example.....would they not have “gamed“ out the scenario of limited mask supplies......it’s only now that Dr.Tam is advising hospital workers to keep their used masks while they figure out how to treat and re-use them.
> 
> I’m obviously no expert, but running out of supplies during a pandemic seems like a possible scenario that should have been thought of.......along with possible secondary measures to broaden supply.


Well in a perfect world we would be prepared for every possible eventuality. But we don't live in a perfect world do we.

The Federal government and even the provinces did have stockpiles of masks. Now we discover that most of them are past their 'use by' date. Oops, they were not integrated into the overall system to insure they were being cycled through to the hospitals etc. That is something I expect will be changed after this.

Also in the real world, governments at all levels must make decisions to allocate funds on some priority basis. Suppose a city has 2 choices on the table as to where to allocate funds. They can fix all the potholes on the streets or they can stock some N95 masks in case of a pandemic. Which would you suggest they do?

They also make funding decisions based on political reasons. So we elect one party who promises to , 'cut spending' and then in another election we elect a party who promises to 'increase healthcare funding'. You can't have it both ways, we always get what the people deserve. 

Hindsight is as they say, always 20/20. But in the real world, even if we have foresight, we cannot be prepared for all eventualities for many different reasons. It's easy to envision a scenario and what it could mean but just because you can envision it does not mean you can actually prepare for it in practical terms.


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## s1231

s1231 said:


> p.s.
> I can't edit the post #26. Page 1 has shown 3 vertical dots but page 2 doesn't.


Still not able to edit the post. #26 (#32 too)
3 vertical dots is shown page 2 now but I got error message on both.
"You may not edit more than 10 different post(s) within 7 days" 
0 edit so far on this new site. only me~?
Would like to see fix this soon.


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## james4beach

I was at Walmart and Sobeys today and bought about $200 of supplies. Appeared that about 1/4 of the shoppers were wearing masks. People keeping good distance too... I was impressed. This looked far better than my Superstore visit last week.


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## Longtimeago

s1231 said:


> Still not able to edit the post. #26 (#32 too)
> 3 vertical dots is shown page 2 now but I got error message on both.
> "You may not edit more than 10 different post(s) within 7 days"
> 0 edit so far on this new site. only me~?
> Would like to see fix this soon.


Yes, only you perhaps s1231. I just checked and I can edit a post from days back if I want to. Send a PM to a moderator.


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## Plugging Along

Children, you two can stop arguing while I go back to the actual thread which is the Use of Masks not whether you should go out. LTA You have a whole thread you berate people... as you often say, stick to the topic, and go back to your other thread. You negatively does nothing except annoy people and makes the environment here worst. I actually like sharing useful information. 

Use of Masks - I have been playing around with different mask materials and ideas. I am curious if any one has an effective way to clean home made masks. I have home made cloth and those neoprene ones with P2.5 filters or shop towels. I don't want to run a whole load of laundry and have read that over washing or bleach can deteriorate masks. I was wondering hand washing would be enough to clean the masks. Thoughts?

What else are people using for their non-pourus barrier?


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## andrewf

Maybe alcohol spray or just leave them for a week between uses?


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## agent99

Recycling masks :
Time is one way to recycle masks. 4 or more days has been suggested. 
Another that has been mentioned, is heat. Put in oven (not microwave) wet at about 70-75C for 30 minutes. Make sure mask is suspended and not in contact with metal that will be at much higher temperature than the air. 

I think I read that recycling methods will soon be provided by health authorities here in Canada.

Supply of masks
What I don't understand, is that elsewhere in world, even 3rd world countries, the public seem to have a supply of masks. Few look home made. So how is it that they can get them, but we can't?


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## andrewf

agent99 said:


> Recycling masks :
> Time is one way to recycle masks. 4 or more days has been suggested.
> Another that has been mentioned, is heat. Put in oven (not microwave) wet at about 70-75C for 30 minutes. Make sure mask is suspended and not in contact with metal that will be at much higher temperature than the air.
> 
> I think I read that recycling methods will soon be provided by health authorities here in Canada.
> 
> Supply of masks
> What I don't understand, is that elsewhere in world, even 3rd world countries, the public seem to have a supply of masks. Few look home made. So how is it that they can get them, but we can't?


Where it was standard practice to wear masks, there was means of producing and distributing them. Masks are cheap. They just were not popular in the West. We'll get there.


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## Longtimeago

agent99 said:


> Recycling masks :
> Time is one way to recycle masks. 4 or more days has been suggested.
> Another that has been mentioned, is heat. Put in oven (not microwave) wet at about 70-75C for 30 minutes. Make sure mask is suspended and not in contact with metal that will be at much higher temperature than the air.
> 
> I think I read that recycling methods will soon be provided by health authorities here in Canada.
> 
> Supply of masks
> What I don't understand, is that elsewhere in world, even 3rd world countries, the public seem to have a supply of masks. Few look home made. So how is it that they can get them, but we can't?


There is no real evidence that time or heat 'cleans' a mask agent99. Just controversy over the effectiveness of either.

I also question what it is that people think they are 'cleaning' off a mask. Someone breathing into a homemade cloth mask is likely to be depositing mucous etc. on the inside of it just from their breath. Time or heat won't remove that, soap and water will. Probably the most analogous example of why to clean a homemade mask is the reasoning given for cleaning a CPAP mask.








The Best Ways To Clean Your CPAP


#html-body [data-pb-style=T7JYHM5]{display:flex;flex-direction:column}Have you ever noticed that after a while items like coffee, your retainer, or a cup that has been left out get a little moldy? Even though you didn’t purposely introduce mold or germs




www.cheapcpapsupplies.com




But you still need to understand what it is you are cleaning, it isn't Covid-19 virus.


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## Plugging Along

andrewf said:


> Maybe alcohol spray or just leave them for a week between uses?


I was debating about the alcohol spray. We have a commercial size jug of rubbing alcohol, but I was again worried about it breaking it down. I also have Clorox spray. Maybe a Clorox spray with a week between uses might work.



agent99 said:


> Recycling masks :
> Time is one way to recycle masks. 4 or more days has been suggested.
> Another that has been mentioned, is heat. Put in oven (not microwave) wet at about 70-75C for 30 minutes. Make sure mask is suspended and not in contact with metal that will be at much higher temperature than the air.
> 
> I think I read that recycling methods will soon be provided by health authorities here in Canada.
> 
> Supply of masks
> What I don't understand, is that elsewhere in world, even 3rd world countries, the public seem to have a supply of masks. Few look home made. So how is it that they can get them, but we can't?


I have several types of mask that I ordered a while back or am making. I think waiting a week in between is a good idea. I will also try the oven, except some of them have a one way plastic filter valve which I feel would melt in the oven. For the non plastic masks, I think that would work. You mentioned not putting it on metal. Any ideas on that.?


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## agent99

Plugging Along said:


> I have several types of mask that I ordered a while back or am making. I think waiting a week in between is a good idea. I will also try the oven, except some of them have a one way plastic filter valve which I feel would melt in the oven. For the non plastic masks, I think that would work. You mentioned not putting it on metal. Any ideas on that.?


The temperature is only 70-75C. A lot less than boiling water. Don't know what plastic those valves are made from, but only a few plastics would melt at those temperatures, but they could distort. 

Keeping away from metal - I would think suspending using some type of hook and/or cord might work. 

This article suggests the home oven: Doctors scramble for best practices on reusing medical masks during shortage
Says a lot of other methods don't work.

This one too: Can disposable masks be reused after sterilization?


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## andrewf

I think just 7 days on its own is more than enough to remove any risk from the virus. The virus can't replicate on its own without a host, and rapidly breaks down over time (exponential decay). The half life of the virus is shortest on porous surfaces (like a mask) and longest on surfaces like stainless steel. Regardless, after 7 days, regardless of surface, the number of virus particles that might remain is nearly 0. This is all at ambient temperatures. You can speed up the process with higher heat. Freezing slows the rate of decay.


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## agent99

andrewf said:


> I think just 7 days on its own is more than enough to remove any risk from the virus. The virus can't replicate on its own without a host, and rapidly breaks down over time (exponential decay). The half life of the virus is shortest on porous surfaces (like a mask) and longest on surfaces like stainless steel. Regardless, after 7 days, regardless of surface, the number of virus particles that might remain is nearly 0. This is all at ambient temperatures. You can speed up the process with higher heat. Freezing slows the rate of decay.


Do you know all of that for sure? By that, I mean you have the medical background to make those statements as facts? Or are they just "facts" read off the internet? I do that too, but try and include the source.

We have to be careful about spreading unverified information.



> Where it was standard practice to wear masks, there was means of producing and distributing them. Masks are cheap. They just were not popular in the West. We'll get there.


The pictures I referred to from 3rd world and other countries were from places where many had probably never seen a mask before Covid. Zimbabwe for example. In some countries in Africa, they are handing the masks out free to those that need to move about. In South America, places like Equador the government has ruled that everyone must be masked. (El Comercio) Did they have them readily available? I doubt it somehow but they now seem to.


----------



## Plugging Along

agent99 said:


> The temperature is only 70-75C. A lot less than boiling water. Don't know what plastic those valves are made from, but only a few plastics would melt at those temperatures, but they could distort.
> 
> Keeping away from metal - I would think suspending using some type of hook and/or cord might work.
> 
> This article suggests the home oven: Doctors scramble for best practices on reusing medical masks during shortage
> Says a lot of other methods don't work.
> 
> This one too: Can disposable masks be reused after sterilization?


Very helpful information. I was worried that the plastic would melt, it was pretty cheap. 



andrewf said:


> I think just 7 days on its own is more than enough to remove any risk from the virus. The virus can't replicate on its own without a host, and rapidly breaks down over time (exponential decay). The half life of the virus is shortest on porous surfaces (like a mask) and longest on surfaces like stainless steel. Regardless, after 7 days, regardless of surface, the number of virus particles that might remain is nearly 0. This is all at ambient temperatures. You can speed up the process with higher heat. Freezing slows the rate of decay.


I had read this too, there is so much conflicting information. I am just trying to consolidate the information and come up with a plan that I think lowers the risks as much as possible. I am leaning towards something that washes the masks, heats it up to a higher temperate, and then dries for 7 days. I am going to play with putting it in the oven, the instant pot and sous vide machine. Good thing I have a few options.

I will come back here and post once I run some tests.


----------



## agent99

Plugging Along said:


> Very helpful information. I was worried that the plastic would melt, it was pretty cheap.


Depending on type of plastic, it could! The ones I have are cheap too. The valve is a hard plastic. Probably wouldn't melt at 70C. My masks also have plastic clips. Then there is the elastic. One of the links I posted suggested putting mask in a plastic bag and heating with a hair drier. But from picture it looked like they were using a flat surgical type or fabric mask, not an N95.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> I was debating about the alcohol spray. We have a commercial size jug of rubbing alcohol, but I was again worried about it breaking it down. I also have Clorox spray. Maybe a Clorox spray with a week between uses might work.
> 
> 
> 
> I have several types of mask that I ordered a while back or am making. I think waiting a week in between is a good idea. I will also try the oven, except some of them have a one way plastic filter valve which I feel would melt in the oven. For the non plastic masks, I think that would work. You mentioned not putting it on metal. Any ideas on that.?


If you're using rubbing alcohol, make sure it's at least 70% (it isn't effective below 60% or so).

Other chemicals might damage, or leave a residue. 
My personal feeling is that given some time, almost all the alcohol disappears, but Bleach seems to linger, and inhaling Chlorine seems really bad. I'm not sure any other killer chemicals are a good idea.

Heat will damage any elastics or flexible polymers. I would avoid that.


----------



## andrewf

agent99 said:


> Do you know all of that for sure? By that, I mean you have the medical background to make those statements as facts? Or are they just "facts" read off the internet? I do that too, but try and include the source.
> 
> We have to be careful about spreading unverified information.
> 
> 
> The pictures I referred to from 3rd world and other countries were from places where many had probably never seen a mask before Covid. Zimbabwe for example. In some countries in Africa, they are handing the masks out free to those that need to move about. In South America, places like Equador the government has ruled that everyone must be masked. (El Comercio) Did they have them readily available? I doubt it somehow but they now seem to.


There was an infectious disease expert on the news last night saying that she is not concerned about transmission from food service (ie pickup/takeout food).


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> There was an infectious disease expert on the news last night saying that she is not concerned about transmission from food service (ie pickup/takeout food).


I'm not taking the risk of someone coughing on my pizza.


----------



## andrewf

Same here. Not that I see it as a huge risk. More just cooking at home for healthier meals. I see going into a restaurant for pickup as more of a risk than the actual food itself.


----------



## Eder

I won't be wearing one unless I get symptomatic

“There is currently no evidence that wearing a mask, whether medical or other types, by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can prevent them from infection with respiratory viruses, including Covid-19,” a report released late Monday by the World Health Organization said.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> If you're using rubbing alcohol, make sure it's at least 70% (it isn't effective below 60% or so).
> 
> Other chemicals might damage, or leave a residue.
> My personal feeling is that given some time, almost all the alcohol disappears, but Bleach seems to linger, and inhaling Chlorine seems really bad. I'm not sure any other killer chemicals are a good idea.
> 
> Heat will damage any elastics or flexible polymers. I would avoid that.


It seems that there is a pro and cons to everything. Even with the alcohol, the issue is on the N95 it take out the magnetic charge. I am also hesitate of putting chemicals on because I will be breathing it near my face. I am leaning towards a commercial UVC sanitzer. Though I am sure there is something wrong with them too. Right now, I am letting my mask sit in a paper page with my germ guardian blowing into it. I will leave it for a week and go from there.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> I won't be wearing one unless I get symptomatic
> 
> “There is currently no evidence that wearing a mask, whether medical or other types, by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can prevent them from infection with respiratory viruses, including Covid-19,” a report released late Monday by the World Health Organization said.


The change in recommendation is that wearing a mask prevents you from spreading your germs to others since they believe spread can occur before any symptoms surface. The amount of protection varies for the mask wearer depending on the type of mask and if they follow proper protocols. 

I am even getting masks for my kids in case they need to get used to it if becomes a requirement in the fall when they return to school. I am having them practice now to get into a good habit before they must wear the masks.


----------



## andrewf

My mother has been making cloth masks. I will pick some up from here this weekend (porch pickup) and start wearing them when I go in public. I think we all need to get into the habit of wearing masks in public whether we are symptomatic or not to help reduce the risk of spreading to others. If enough people do this we should be able to help reduce the spread.

I still think the wearing of gloves (and I see lots of them discarded on the ground as litter) as largely pointless. You still need to wash your hands when you return home. Just avoid touching your face between when you leave home and when you wash again after leaving home. Gloves don't protect you from touching your face. I think you're much better off wearing eye protection.


----------



## james4beach

Breaking my 'no daytime social media' rule for a second, but I thought this was important.

Dr Brian Goldman on CBC Newsworld is recommending that everyone wear masks (cloth or whatever) when shopping in stores. I've already started.

Remember: _don't touch the mask_ once you're in the store. If it falls or slips, leave it alone.

Like andrewf, I don't wear gloves. But I suspect that any mask helps. I have some old dust masks (basically provides a nice shell), and am adding cotton layers on the inside. I'm also going to use a bandanna with elastic bands as illustrated by the US CDC
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


----------



## m3s

I don't see how cutting a T-shirt or material like coffee filters and sewing in elastics is any different than simply using a neck tube that has elasticity built into the fabric

Neck tube costs about the same as a blank shirt (typically 5 for $20), more comfortable than those elastics on your ears imo, seals the sides to your face unlike the surgical masks and probably better than sewed elastics too, and just look less janky 

Tuck a coffee filter or shop towel in if you want extra filtration. They say exposure is cumulative so even reducing exposure can help I imagine

SA neck gaiters (buff)


----------



## andrewf

Part of the problem is that it is hard to acquire these things. Many stores are shut down, Amazon is backed up by months.


----------



## MrMatt

The idea with masks is to prevent the spray of infected water droplets.
As Trudeau said "speaking moistly". I'm sure it was eloquent in French


----------



## sags

So now criminals can walk around wearing masks and nobody suspects anything ?

Shuttered stores and restaurants in our city are getting busted into. Cameras wont be much use if they are wearing masks.

The cops are too busy breaking up Costco shopping lines.

The owners are now boarding up the fronts with wood. Downtown looks like we are expecting a hurricane.


----------



## agent99

Maybe we need masks like these to lighten things up a bit?


----------



## m3s

sags said:


> So now criminals can walk around wearing masks and nobody suspects anything ?


Weren't face coverings banned in Quebec?


----------



## potato69

Mostly masks are good for avoiding transmitting COVID when you speak moistly


----------



## newfoundlander61

I it makes you feel safer then do it. When going out for food this week it seems that many people are now wearing masks and its almost normal which I know sounds strange to say. Or should I say the new normal for while yet.


----------



## tavogl

agent99 said:


> That is a dated video and that guy is not really qualified to advise us. Do we see medical people using those large respirators? I have one and they are very cumbersome. I have used it when doing some serious sanding of toxic paint. But for use while shopping or otherwise in public? No way.
> 
> It seems that authorities are now moving toward having everyone wear masks. But so far no guidance as to which type and where we might be able to get them.
> 
> This article provides some data on effectiveness of different types.
> Face masks for COVID-19: A deep dive into the data
> (Not very well written and hard to decide which types might be available and work for us now).
> 
> So what do we do? For now, I guess my wife and I will use the N95s we have and try to re-use using methods provided here in another thread.


Respirators are better than most face masks... the issue with the respirators is hat you require a "fit test" to make sure it seals around your face, facial hair would prevent any kind of proper seal. I work in the pest control industry and our guys use tons of toxic pesticides and believe me, most respirators (rated for fumes) are incredibly efficient.

Face masks do not seal around your face nearly as tight as respirators.


----------



## Plugging Along

I have been playing around with some masks configurations. I went to visit my father on the weekend (after 14+ days of no one in my house having any contact), I was in his house for a while doing some work, and we did a family video conference. I washed my hands when I arrived, but didn't wear gloves and was touching moving things for him. 
I wore a mask in his place for his protection, but then was wondering if I really needed it. I figured I should take extra precaution for him, but was there any reason to wear it? Anything I should do differently (staying at home is not the option)

Then I changed into a fresh mask, and put a double shop towel filter in for my very long grocery shop. It took me close to three hours. I did wear gloves, which I found helpful (disposed of them properly). I found shortly after the 2 hours mark I must have been 'breathing moistly'. It was getting a little more difficult to breath but that could have been I was getting frustrated and tired. I was going to change my filter to the spare, but how the store was set up, I would have had to weave my self back to the beginning where I could safety wash my hands, and put a new filter in, with my rather large heavy cart, I sucked it up. 

I sanitized my hands going into the car, took off the masks, put them in a plastic bag, and sanitized my hands again. When arriving at home, I dumped the masks into a salad spinner (I don't use it for salad), added soap and hot water, hand scrubbed, rinsed, repeated with more soap boiling water but salad spin the masks, hung to dry a bit, then put them in the over at 180 F for an couple of hours. They will hang dry again. 

Because I am seeing my father about every 3 weeks in person, I am taking all the precautions I can. Any feedback on my processes/methods?


----------



## sags

Any possibility of acquiring an N95 mask for your shopping trips ? If not, I think you are doing the best you can.

My wife puts paper towel in her surgical mask to absorb the moisture.

She knows the mask doesn't protect her, but it may offer some protection to the residents.

She wears the same N95 for shopping and stores it in a plastic bag. I see she washed a surgical mask last night as it is hanging in a bathroom drying out.

I can't help but go back to one of my original thoughts though.

If we had proper PPE for everyone, we would be able to move around more freely and reduce the stress.

I am talking about an improved N95 type of mask, maybe with tear away strips on the front that could be peeled off and disposed of. It would reveal a new strip beneath it. I have seen suggestions that a snorkel be included, as it would allow the intake of oxygen well above the level of the virus.

Kind of like what F1 race car drivers use on their visors.









From High-Speed Bug Removal to Hydration, F1 Helmets Have a Crazy Amount of Design in Them - Core77


Imagine you're a Formula One driver doing 240 m.p.h. when a bug slams into your helmet's visor. By chance the smear is directly in front of the pupil of your dominant eye, and this obstruction of your vision is enough to cost you the race (and maybe much more). That's...




www.core77.com


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> Any possibility of acquiring an N95 mask for your shopping trips ? If not, I think you are doing the best you can.
> 
> My wife puts paper towel in her surgical mask to absorb the moisture.
> 
> She knows the mask doesn't protect her, but it may offer some protection to the residents.
> 
> She wears the same N95 for shopping and stores it in a plastic bag. I see she washed a surgical mask last night as it is hanging in a bathroom drying out.
> 
> I can't help but go back to one of my original thoughts though.
> 
> If we had proper PPE for everyone, we would be able to move around more freely and reduce the stress.
> 
> I am talking about an improved N95 type of mask, maybe with tear away strips on the front that could be peeled off and disposed of. It would reveal a new strip beneath it. I have seen suggestions that a snorkel be included, as it would allow the intake of oxygen well above the level of the virus.
> 
> Kind of like what F1 race car drivers use on their visors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From High-Speed Bug Removal to Hydration, F1 Helmets Have a Crazy Amount of Design in Them - Core77
> 
> 
> Imagine you're a Formula One driver doing 240 m.p.h. when a bug slams into your helmet's visor. By chance the smear is directly in front of the pupil of your dominant eye, and this obstruction of your vision is enough to cost you the race (and maybe much more). That's...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.core77.com


I am very hesitate to get N95, I feel if I really wanted to, I would find a way. I am trying to save them for the people who are actually saving lives. I was more looking at my techniques and practices to see if there is anything I am could be doing more safely. 

For you wife, if she can get the blue shop towels, a double layer under her mask will absorb moisture and if worn properly up to 95% effectiveness. They can be reused. Another thing I have been testing, is how you fold the material (even paper towel). By folding it in a 'progressive' accordian with the folds pointing down closest to your nose, it will reduce condensation moving up. I have been wearing my glasses for extra protection and find how I place the shop towel in really makes difference in if my glasses steam up. 

I agree and disagree about the PPE. I am by far an expert but have been researching as much as I can. I see people making errors all the time with their face masks. I do think having PPE could be helpful if EVERYONE uses it properly. However, I have always felt the average person screws it up, and half the population is below average. I also worry that people believe that having PPE will give them a false sense of security and go out more. PPE should be used as additional protection not a replacement for social distancing.


----------



## m3s

Plugging Along said:


> I see people making errors all the time with their face masks. I do think having PPE could be helpful if EVERYONE uses it properly. However, I have always felt the average person screws it up, and half the population is below average.


Maybe we need these instead


----------



## sags

My wife's N95 masks are leftover from the SARS days, when she was nursing in the hospital. They are expired and only 2 are packaged.

She is also keeping them in case there is a COVID outbreak in the retirement home. Nobody else has that mask, and she could attend to the resident.

She hasn't really told management of this because she doesn't want them counting on her, but I know she would do it for the residents.

She wears an N95 while shopping because if she gets infected, that will be one less employee in the home and she is working almost every day.

Although she is in excellent health, she is also high risk (age 73) working in a high risk environment, so she needs to stay as safe as possible.

The company is talking about bringing in office staff to do the work now. They will be in for a surprise at their new job "duties".


----------



## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> I agree and disagree about the PPE. I am by far an expert but have been researching as much as I can. I see people making errors all the time with their face masks. I do think having PPE could be helpful if EVERYONE uses it properly. However, I have always felt the average person screws it up, and half the population is below average. I also worry that people believe that having PPE will give them a false sense of security and go out more. PPE should be used as additional protection not a replacement for social distancing.


That is my main fear re everyone wearing masks. While it can't hurt, it can give a false sense of security and result in people paying less attention to physical distancing as well as going out more often. 

First should be STAY HOME as much as POSSIBLE and second should be physical distancing. Wearing a mask and not adhering as much as possible to the first two is like doing 1% of what you can do.


----------



## Longtimeago

sags said:


> My wife's N95 masks are leftover from the SARS days, when she was nursing in the hospital. They are expired and only 2 are packaged.
> 
> She is also keeping them in case there is a COVID outbreak in the retirement home. Nobody else has that mask, and she could attend to the resident.
> 
> She hasn't really told management of this because she doesn't want them counting on her, but I know she would do it for the residents.
> 
> She wears an N95 while shopping because if she gets infected, that will be one less employee in the home and she is working almost every day.
> 
> Although she is in excellent health, she is also high risk (age 73) working in a high risk environment, so she needs to stay as safe as possible.
> 
> The company is talking about bringing in office staff to do the work now. They will be in for a surprise at their new job "duties".


Sags there is a distinct difference between what the government is telling us and what you are telling us. We are being told that PPE is being provided to all residences and you are saying they don't have any. 

According to Ford, "_Over the weekend, Ford said the province responded to all long-term care homes that requested personal protective equipment, delivering “most supplies” within 24 hours."_

Quote taken from here: Ford says province doing 'everything we can' to protect LTC homes; Ottawa COVID-19 cases now at 586

So the question would be why does the residence your wife work in not have adequate PPE. I don't doubt what you say but I question why it is true. Is her employer not requesting the PPE and if not, why not? There should be no reason for your wife to have to think of supplying her own N95 masks etc.

There is something WRONG with this picture you are painting for us.


----------



## sags

Well, I will tell you what I know for sure LTA.

My wife worked 4 hours today and she stopped at the variety store to buy 2 more boxes of masks at $70 each (50 masks)

She had to stop because a co-worker was wearing a home made fabric mask and they won't allow it anymore.

The company supplies one mask........just one, so the co-worker asked my wife to buy her a box for work. They are paying for their own PPE.......crappy as it is.

Those are the facts. I don't give a flying f.......what Doug Ford says.


----------



## Money172375

I still cant find masks. So homemade it is.


----------



## sags

It looks like Ford is carefully parsing his words and talking strictly about homes with an LTA (long term care) homes designation.

That wouldn't include the many different configurations and acronyms for other home care for senior residences.


----------



## sags

It was just last night at midnight that Ontario mandated that people cannot work in more than one home at a time.

Little late to that party, I am thinking.


----------



## Longtimeago

sags said:


> It looks like Ford is carefully parsing his words and talking strictly about homes with an LTA (long term care) homes designation.
> 
> That wouldn't include the many different configurations and acronyms for other home care for senior residences.


That may be the difference sags. To me, all seniors homes are the same but I do realize some offer more care than others and so have different names. Maybe you are right, Ford is giving supplies to one designated type and not others. 

Still, if I were in your wife's shoes, I would be sending an email to Doug Ford directly asking him why I am not being supplied with PPE in the residence where I work. 

I still wonder if it is a case of your wife's specific employer is not asking for PPE because paying the government for it is something they do not want to do. I do think there are private seniors homes still sourcing their own rather than pay the government the prices they are asking for.

I don't know if Ford is GIVING PPE to senior homes or SELLING it to them. I wonder?


----------



## :) lonewolf

The masks are a symbol your voice against government lock down will be silenced


----------



## james4beach

I have been using a cloth mask made from a bandanna every time I go out to a store. I also ordered a Buff mask (the kind m3s mentioned) but it hasn't arrived yet. I think that's going to work nicely too, and I'll probably fold the Buff over itself to double up the fabric.

Currently I have a rotation of 3 bandannas and I find they are easy to fold up into a mask (along with elastics), use once, and then put into the laundry. They go into the regular wash & dry cycle which I find easy to manage. I might start adding a paper towel or kleenex "filter". Adding the Buff into the mix, this should give me 4 masks in rotation.

I'm planning on getting used to the masks, as I am anticipating several waves of disease outbreaks, and expect it will probably be an issue this winter as well in flu season.

It's important to not touch or adjust your mask. Once it's on, leave it alone. In my view, ANY barrier is better than no barrier.


----------



## Eder

The mask is quite efficient for keeping air born viruses close to your respiratory system.


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> <snip>Currently I have a rotation of 3 bandannas and I find they are easy to fold up into a mask (along with elastics), use once, and then put into the laundry. They go into the regular wash & dry cycle which I find easy to manage. I might start adding a paper towel or kleenex "filter". Adding the Buff into the mix, this should give me 4 masks in rotation.
> <snip>
> It's important to not touch or adjust your mask. Once it's on, leave it alone. In my view, ANY barrier is better than no barrier.


I have 2 double layer masks that allow for a filter between the layers. I change the filter and dry the mask in the sun between wearings. By avoiding washing, I think they will last indefinitely.


----------



## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> I have been using a cloth mask made from a bandanna every time I go out to a store. I also ordered a Buff mask (the kind m3s mentioned) but it hasn't arrived yet. I think that's going to work nicely too, and I'll probably fold the Buff over itself to double up the fabric.
> 
> Currently I have a rotation of 3 bandannas and I find they are easy to fold up into a mask (along with elastics), use once, and then put into the laundry. They go into the regular wash & dry cycle which I find easy to manage. I might start adding a paper towel or kleenex "filter". Adding the Buff into the mix, this should give me 4 masks in rotation.
> 
> I'm planning on getting used to the masks, as I am anticipating several waves of disease outbreaks, and expect it will probably be an issue this winter as well in flu season.
> 
> It's important to not touch or adjust your mask. Once it's on, leave it alone. In my view, ANY barrier is better than no barrier.


I don't know why this topic of wearing a mask goes on and on. People should understand it by now, it's not rocket science after all.

A mask protects OTHERS from spread by you. Even a bandanna provides some protection against spread by you. So there is no harm in wearing one in that regard.

The problem is that if people THINK it protects THEM from catching the virus, it can provide a false sense of security as has been repeated here over and over again. It can lead people to having more interactions with others than necessary and to not adhering as carefully to physical distancing. 

If you stay home, you don't need a mask. If you do HAVE to go somewhere then physical distancing is your next best protection against catching the virus. A mask isn't even going to increase YOUR protection by 1% overall. Staying home is 100% protection, distancing is also going to give you pretty good protection but a mask is not.


----------



## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> I have 2 double layer masks that allow for a filter between the layers. I change the filter and dry the mask in the sun between wearings. By avoiding washing, I think they will last indefinitely.


Let me ask you kcowan, what it is that you think the mask is doing when you wear it. Protecting me from you or protecting you from me? That's where the issue lies.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> I don't know why this topic of wearing a mask goes on and on. People should understand it by now, it's not rocket science after all.
> 
> A mask protects OTHERS from spread by you. Even a bandanna provides some protection against spread by you. So there is no harm in wearing one in that regard.
> 
> The problem is that if people THINK it protects THEM from catching the virus, it can provide a false sense of security as has been repeated here over and over again. It can lead people to having more interactions with others than necessary and to not adhering as carefully to physical distancing.
> 
> If you stay home, you don't need a mask. If you do HAVE to go somewhere then physical distancing is your next best protection against catching the virus. A mask isn't even going to increase YOUR protection by 1% overall. Staying home is 100% protection, distancing is also going to give you pretty good protection but a mask is not.


I don't know why some people keeps posting for people to stay at home when the topic is the use of masks. People should understand it by now that is they are two different topic. It's not rocket science after all. If one does not want to talk about the topic of the use of mask, they should not post.

It has already been established that at sometime during this pandemic, people will need to go out. The questions on this thread is about when you have to go out how do you get the best protect yourselves and others. The "stay a home' advice is not relevant when you must go out. To get the best protection then is the physical distance AND wear a mask.

This thread is not about how to physical distance, it's still about using mask. N95 or medical masks, or full respirators are the most effective, however, not practical or take away from those who really need is. So the next level of protection is wear a double layered, close knit mask with a filter.



> A mask isn't even going to increase YOUR protection by 1% overall. Staying home is 100% protection, distancing is also going to give you pretty good protection but a mask is not.


Facts are wrong here. Unless one is using a thin worn out material, protection for the wearer is greater than percent. A cotton t shirt doubled is somewhere between 40-65%, a double knit dishcloth is about 80%. Hepa filter is about 90% close to surgical masks. In fact, studies have been showing a double shop towel depending on brand will give up to 94%.

Though this isn't rocket science, here's your summary

Stay home with no outside contact from the world (including mail and grocery delivery) 100% > Stay at home with deliveries 99+% > Physical distance WITH a good mask > Physical distance without a mask

It also isn't rocket science that this thread is not about stay at home and physical distance.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I have been using a cloth mask made from a bandanna every time I go out to a store. I also ordered a Buff mask (the kind m3s mentioned) but it hasn't arrived yet. I think that's going to work nicely too, and I'll probably fold the Buff over itself to double up the fabric.
> 
> Currently I have a rotation of 3 bandannas and I find they are easy to fold up into a mask (along with elastics), use once, and then put into the laundry. They go into the regular wash & dry cycle which I find easy to manage. I might start adding a paper towel or kleenex "filter". Adding the Buff into the mix, this should give me 4 masks in rotation.
> 
> I'm planning on getting used to the masks, as I am anticipating several waves of disease outbreaks, and expect it will probably be an issue this winter as well in flu season.
> 
> It's important to not touch or adjust your mask. Once it's on, leave it alone. In my view, ANY barrier is better than no barrier.


I have been playing with reusable masks, it's been my side project at home. Double fabric is good. It's better if you can secure the nose piece on the fabric. A great hack is to make a little slot, and put in a paper clip or 20 guage wire, I used the plastic wire twist ties that you can find on some coffee packages to keep fresh. 

Paper towel or Kleenex is better than nothing, but not much better. Other options:

Coffee filter (doubled)
Hepa filter (make sure there is a layer of cloth between the filter and your nose because of the fiberglass)
Cut up filter from furnance
-Active charcoal filter (like those in composters or hood fans)

The best I have read is the blue shop towels from Zed Industrial or Toolbox doubles has almost 94% efficiency. The Scots ones are closer to 90% but are more readily available. I also found some P2.5 filters but am saving them.
You have check to see breathability. I find the show towels quite breathable.

For washing, I have been hand washing with soap and then a salad spinner. Hung to dry and aired out for about week. I don't go out that often so can rotate between a few.


----------



## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> I don't know why some people keeps posting for people to stay at home when the topic is the use of masks. People should understand it by now that is they are two different topic. It's not rocket science after all. If one does not want to talk about the topic of the use of mask, they should not post.
> 
> It has already been established that at sometime during this pandemic, people will need to go out. The questions on this thread is about when you have to go out how do you get the best protect yourselves and others. The "stay a home' advice is not relevant when you must go out. To get the best protection then is the physical distance AND wear a mask.
> 
> This thread is not about how to physical distance, it's still about using mask. N95 or medical masks, or full respirators are the most effective, however, not practical or take away from those who really need is. So the next level of protection is wear a double layered, close knit mask with a filter.
> 
> 
> 
> Facts are wrong here. Unless one is using a thin worn out material, protection for the wearer is greater than percent. A cotton t shirt doubled is somewhere between 40-65%, a double knit dishcloth is about 80%. Hepa filter is about 90% close to surgical masks. In fact, studies have been showing a double shop towel depending on brand will give up to 94%.
> 
> Though this isn't rocket science, here's your summary
> 
> Stay home with no outside contact from the world (including mail and grocery delivery) 100% > Stay at home with deliveries 99+% > Physical distance WITH a good mask > Physical distance without a mask
> 
> It also isn't rocket science that this thread is not about stay at home and physical distance.


Well if you believe you can have up to 94% protection against you catching the virus by using a mask, then why don't we all just go out and carry on as normal? We will just all wear homemade masks using double shop towels. 

Jeez, I don't know why they didn't just tell us all to do this from the start. 'Hey everybody, no reason to worry, just get some shop towels and make a mask, life can go on as normal.'


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> Well if you believe you can have up to 94% protection against you catching the virus by using a mask, then why don't we all just go out and carry on as normal? We will just all wear homemade masks using double shop towels.
> 
> Jeez, I don't know why they didn't just tell us all to do this from the start. 'Hey everybody, no reason to worry, just get some shop towels and make a mask, life can go on as normal.'


Because just wearing a mask, then taking it off improperly doesn't offer any real protection, and we'd be giving people a false sense of security.

Just like the people who use gloves, then cross contaminate.

Proper use of PPE for infectious disease is really hard, and most people aren't trained to use it properly. Also it takes a high degree of attention to not make a mistake. 
Masks to reduce spread might help, but I don't think masks to protect yourself would be widely effective for the general population.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> Because just wearing a mask, then taking it off improperly doesn't offer any real protection, and we'd be giving people a false sense of security.
> 
> Just like the people who use gloves, then cross contaminate.
> 
> Proper use of PPE for infectious disease is really hard, and most people aren't trained to use it properly. Also it takes a high degree of attention to not make a mistake.
> Masks to reduce spread might help, but I don't think masks to protect yourself would be widely effective for the general population.


I agree but apparently Plugging Along feels 94% protected with a mask and has only a 6% need to worry if wearing one. 

That is the issue, the false sense of security it gives people and then when I DO HAVE to go out, they're all out there when they don't HAVE to be out and are not adhering as strictly to distancing and so can potentially infect ME.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> I agree but apparently Plugging Along feels 94% protected with a mask and has only a 6% need to worry if wearing one.
> 
> That is the issue, the false sense of security it gives people and then when I DO HAVE to go out, they're all out there when they don't HAVE to be out and are not adhering as strictly to distancing and so can potentially infect ME.


Why do you jump to those wild assumptions? 

Just because PA wants extra protection when out shopping you all of a sudden think everyone will just run around outside feeling safe because they have a mask.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> I agree but apparently Plugging Along feels 94% protected with a mask and has only a 6% need to worry if wearing one.
> 
> That is the issue, the false sense of security it gives people and then when I DO HAVE to go out, they're all out there when they don't HAVE to be out and are not adhering as strictly to distancing and so can potentially infect ME.


I see math, statistics and not jumping to assumptions are not your strong point. I proved your made up 1% wrong. I even summarize for you because you tend like twisting your views. I even said twice in the same post that you cherry picked and made an assumption still. I see this as a fundamental flaw, your lack of logic or comprehension. I removed math to make it easier for you to comprehend.

Let me say one more time
IT IS SAFER TO WEAR ANY MASK PROPERLY *WHILE * SOCIAL DISTANCING. 
The effectiveness ratings I provide have no correlation with the amount of worry. The impacts are the same if one gets sick, the effectiveness rating is reducing the probability. Again, it does not reduce it to a zero, but does it reduce it.

Simple question, would you rather have a 6% chance of breathing in the virus or 99% (your false estimate). Without getting into math again, a 6% chance is better in this case. 



Longtimeago said:


> Well if you believe you can have up to 94% protection against you catching the virus by using a mask, then why don't we all just go out and carry on as normal? We will just all wear homemade masks using double shop towels.
> 
> Jeez, I don't know why they didn't just tell us all to do this from the start. 'Hey everybody, no reason to worry, just get some shop towels and make a mask, life can go on as normal.'


Because it’s UP TO 94%. That also assumes that the wearer is wearing it properly, that it's isn't over moist, etc. You are very stuck in your little world of black and white. I am not telling people to go out, but if they do, they would be better physical distance. Even better if they wear a mask, even better a mask with a filter, and even better a mask with a good filter.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> I agree but apparently Plugging Along feels 94% protected with a mask and has only a 6% need to worry if wearing one.
> 
> That is the issue, the false sense of security it gives people and then when I DO HAVE to go out, they're all out there when they don't HAVE to be out and are not adhering as strictly to distancing and so can potentially infect ME.


Don't make any assumptions about me or what I feel. I gave facts, you can't argue against logical facts so you make false assumptions.

While you sit and repeat over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over the SAME information of stay at home, and not offer any useful information. 
It is people like me that are protecting people like you by wearing a well made mask properly.
It is people like me that are allowing people like you to stay in your home and get your delivery while I go out and shop for 4 families and those in my city who are quarantined.
It is people like me that tell others kindly to keep their distance that keep people like you safe. 
It is people like me that will give an extra shop towel mask to the an elderly person who is already out anyways to try and keep them safe or to the people doing the pick and collect. I gave 5 sets of masks out at my last shopping to the workers, so they it would protect people like you when they pick your groceries. 

Just follow your own advice and stay the heck home with your toxic negatively and conscending attitude. I am sure when you finally have to go out, you will not wear mask because it doesn't do anything for you.


----------



## kcowan

Longtimeago said:


> Let me ask you kcowan, what it is that you think the mask is doing when you wear it. Protecting me from you or protecting you from me? That's where the issue lies.


It is protecting others. Haven't you been paying attention? But I want everyone who leaves home to do the same! My post was to illustrate that it is easy and not expensive to do so. Just make everyone who goes out were a mask, and fine them if they don't!

I have been doing this for weeks. Do I think I am asymptomatic? No! I just believe everyone should practice this habit.


----------



## Plugging Along

kcowan said:


> It is protecting others. Haven't you been paying attention? But I want everyone who leaves home to do the same! My post was to illustrate that it is easy and not expensive to do so. Just make everyone who goes out were a mask, and fine them if they don't!
> 
> I have been doing this for weeks. Do I think I am asymptomatic? No! I just believe everyone should practice this habit.


Agreed. I know I am not asymptomatic when I first go out because I only go out every 14 days. However, I wear a mask to protect everyone else and little for me.

On a side note, I do believe all the front line workers should have access to mask, especially the ones picking groceries for people. I would say less than 20% of the grocery pickers had masks on and they are selecting for many people. I also observed that they were not doing a very good job physical distancing. I had giving a mask to three of the workers. The older one seemed very happy, but the two younger ones were a little clueless so I told them to google the proper way to wear it when they get home. 

I would think that anyone who is front line or dealing with a lot of people should wear a mask as they are more likely to be asymptomatic and not know.


----------



## Longtimeago

I don't think I am the one twisting things here. A mask can be worn to protect others. OK, we can agree on that. 

The 94% is being used as a percentage of effectiveness against CATCHING the virus, not as a percentage of effectiveness of TRANSMITTING the virus. Or did you mean the opposite of what you wrote Plugging Along?

Here is what you wrote Plugging Along,
"_The questions on this thread is about when you have to go out how do you get the best protect *yourselves* and others. The "stay a home' advice is not relevant when you must go out. To get the best *protection* then is the physical distance AND wear a mask.

This thread is not about how to physical distance, it's still about using mask. N95 or medical masks, or full respirators are the most effective, however, not practical or take away from those who really need is. So the next level of protection is wear a double layered, close knit mask with a filter._
_Facts are wrong here. Unless one is using a thin worn out material, *protection for the wearer* is greater than 1 percent. A cotton t shirt doubled is somewhere between 40-65%, a double knit dishcloth is about 80%. Hepa filter is about 90% close to surgical masks. In fact, studies have been showing a double shop towel depending on brand will give up to 94%."_

So that is clearly talking about preventing CATCHING the virus yourself, not about protecting others from you spreading it. Yes, it does help prevent you spreading it at the same time but it is being suggested as protecting you from CATCHING the virus by 94%.

People read such numbers and comments and think THEY will be protected from CATCHING the virus and they then are likely to pay less attention to what will really reduce spread. That is what I and MrMatt above have been saying over and over again.

Cainvest responds above and writes, _"Just because PA wants *extra protection *when out shopping you all of a sudden think everyone will just run around outside feeling safe because they have a mask."_

Yet another instance of someone taking it as being about protecting YOURSELF, not about protecting others. Then wonders why people might 'run around feeling safe'. Umm, because they were told it is 94% effective????? in protecting THEM.

_
_


----------



## Longtimeago

kcowan said:


> It is protecting others. Haven't you been paying attention? But I want everyone who leaves home to do the same! My post was to illustrate that it is easy and not expensive to do so. Just make everyone who goes out were a mask, and fine them if they don't!
> 
> I have been doing this for weeks. Do I think I am asymptomatic? No! I just believe everyone should practice this habit.


I'm fine with that kcowan. Just as long as you don't think it is protecting you as much as staying home or maintaining distancing will do.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> I don't think I am the one twisting things here. A mask can be worn to protect others. OK, we can agree on that.
> 
> The 94% is being used as a percentage of effectiveness against CATCHING the virus, not as a percentage of effectiveness of TRANSMITTING the virus. Or did you mean the opposite of what you wrote Plugging Along?
> 
> Here is what you wrote Plugging Along,
> "
> People read such numbers and comments and think THEY will be protected from CATCHING the virus and they then are likely to pay less attention to what will really reduce spread. That is what I and MrMatt above have been saying over and over again.
> 
> Cainvest responds above and writes, _"Just because PA wants *extra protection *when out shopping you all of a sudden think everyone will just run around outside feeling safe because they have a mask."_
> 
> Yet another instance of someone taking it as being about protecting YOURSELF, not about protecting others. Then wonders why people might 'run around feeling safe'. Umm, because they were told it is 94% effective????? in protecting THEM.


Again, not mutually exclusive. Mask protect BOTH the wearer and those around them. Any mask will reduce the amount 'moist' droplets in the air as a physical barrier. The mask alone is the equivalent of coughing in your elbow. The filter decrease both what goes out AND in. So yes, I want extra protection but I provide protection at the same time. So what. When I see my father I wear a mask (without a filter), even though I haven't seen anyone for at least 14 days to protect him. I do not worry that he has the virus so I don't have him wear the mask. I am protect him just in case.

When I have to get my groceries, I throw in a filter, yep that is for me but I am still protecting others. I don't run around feeling safe, I run around trying to reduce my risks of BOTH me getting infected and me infecting others. 

You make a wild assumptions that because one has reduced the risk, it lends to go everywhere and increase risks by going out. That again, is just full of incorrect assumptions. I already said multiple times that I don't go out until I have to, physical distance, and then wear a mask. 

Your comments make are useless. People don't drive like idiots because they have a safe belt. They will act like they act, and the seltbelt will just reduce the risk. 

Not rocket science here. Your advice shoots down masks when everyone should be wearing them when they go out. You have already made your point that people shouldn't ever go out. That is no longer helpful. I provide information on when someone has to go out what is the safest way to do so.

So when YOU finally have to get off your armchair to go out. Will you wear a mask? Do want the person that picks and delivers your food and garden stuff to wear a mask? YES OR NO?


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Cainvest responds above and writes, _"Just because PA wants *extra protection *when out shopping you all of a sudden think everyone will just run around outside feeling safe because they have a mask."_
> 
> Yet another instance of someone taking it as being about protecting YOURSELF, not about protecting others. Then wonders why people might 'run around feeling safe'. Umm, because they were told it is 94% effective????? in protecting THEM.


Yup, I'm seeing all those people wearing masks high fiving and giving hugs like you're suggesting ... NOT.

But please continue with your wild assumptions ...


----------



## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> Again, not mutually exclusive. Mask protect BOTH the wearer and those around them. Any mask will reduce the amount 'moist' droplets in the air as a physical barrier. The mask alone is the equivalent of coughing in your elbow. The filter decrease both what goes out AND in. So yes, I want extra protection but I provide protection at the same time. So what. When I see my father I wear a mask (without a filter), even though I haven't seen anyone for at least 14 days to protect him. I do not worry that he has the virus so I don't have him wear the mask. I am protect him just in case.
> 
> When I have to get my groceries, I throw in a filter, yep that is for me but I am still protecting others. I don't run around feeling safe, I run around trying to reduce my risks of BOTH me getting infected and me infecting others.
> 
> You make a wild assumptions that because one has reduced the risk, it lends to go everywhere and increase risks by going out. That again, is just full of incorrect assumptions. I already said multiple times that I don't go out until I have to, physical distance, and then wear a mask.
> 
> Your comments make are useless. People don't drive like idiots because they have a safe belt. They will act like they act, and the seltbelt will just reduce the risk.
> 
> Not rocket science here. Your advice shoots down masks when everyone should be wearing them when they go out. You have already made your point that people shouldn't ever go out. That is no longer helpful. I provide information on when someone has to go out what is the safest way to do so.
> 
> So when YOU finally have to get off your armchair to go out. Will you wear a mask? Do want the person that picks and delivers your food and garden stuff to wear a mask? YES OR NO?


Yada, yada, yada. You wrote about protecting yourself and 94% effectiveness. I quoted what you said. Anyone reading it would see that you were talking about protecting yourself. So what is the reader to take from that? If they do what you advise, they will achieve 94% protection for themselves. THAT is the message you gave.

Now address the point that was made by me and MrMatt in response to that. It will give many people a false sense of security. But you don't want to address that point do you. Perhaps because you cannot refute it.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> It will give many people a false sense of security. But you don't want to address that point do you. Perhaps because you cannot refute it.


And can you back up your claim that it will give *many* wearing masks a false sense of security?

Let me just answer, to save a long-winded reply from you .... Nope.


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> Yup, I'm seeing all those people wearing masks high fiving and giving hugs like you're suggesting ... NOT.
> 
> But please continue with your wild assumptions ...


Do not try to use extremes as if they were absolutes cainvest. People do not have to be 'giving hugs' to be less careful about how often they go out or how strictly they adhere to distancing. Anything that makes them think they can go out more or worry less about distancing has a negative impact. Telling them that a mask will give them 94% protection certainly falls into that category.

Some people will understand and some will not. It is those who will NOT truly understand that we have to worry about, not those that will. But for anyone to try and suggest that we can ignore those that really don't understand and write about something that they will see as an excuse to act incorrectly is simply wrong. What we write is not just read by those who do understand.

*All* that anyone should be saying about masks is that *it does no harm to wear one and can help reduce spread*. ANY indication that it will provide YOU with 94% protection for YOU should never be mentioned because SOME people will take that entirely the wrong way.

Remember, the average IQ is 100 and that means there are a whole lot of stupid people out there.


----------



## sags

If I knew for sure I wasn't infected, I wouldn't be as concerned about wearing a mask, as I couldn't spread a virus I didn't have.

The problem is I don't know. I could be infected and showing no symptoms yet. So, I wear a mask just in case I am infected.

I don't expect that a mask would give me any protection from others in close contact, so I avoid close contact even with our son and family.

I maintain my distance and hope any droplets that may float my way, are too small in quantity to cause infection (viral loading).

I am not too concerned about getting the infection in public. My concern is my wife becoming infected at the retirement home and bringing it home.

So far as I know there is no way to protect against that, except that she wears a mask at work and washes her hands frequently.

If there is an outbreak in the home, she is going to have to seriously consider quitting the employment. We are too high risk at our ages.


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> And can you back up your claim that it will give *many* wearing masks a false sense of security?
> 
> Let me just answer, to save a long-winded reply from you .... Nope.


Well I can show you that WHO agrees with me that it can give a false sense of security.








Face masks cannot stop healthy people getting Covid-19, says WHO


Organisation’s evidence review shows wearing mask outside does not prevent infection




www.theguardian.com





Other bodies are also concerned about it giving a false sense of security.








Don’t get lulled into false sense of security with homemade masks amid coronavirus pandemic: WRHA - Winnipeg | Globalnews.ca


Thinking of wearing a cloth mask while you're out in public? Manitoba health officials say it won't do much to protect you from COVID-19, but it still has its benefits.




globalnews.ca













Wearing face masks to combat coronavirus: False sense of security, or better than nothing? - Hong Kong Free Press HKFP


By Sara Hussein The use of face masks in Asia during the coronavirus outbreak has been far more widespread than in the West, where governments have urged people to reserve supplies for frontline medical staff, so have they helped limit infections? Experts agree that the ordinary surgical masks...




hongkongfp.com





From that last link:
_“Masks may give people a false sense of security,” said Simon Clarke, an associate professor of cellular microbiology at the University of Reading.

Advocating mask usage, he fears, could also embolden people who are reluctant to adhere to social distancing measures.

“I can envisage a situation where people who are infected and therefore shedding virus, think their mask gives them licence to go out to public places or to work,” he told AFP.

“We all know people who think nothing of bringing colds into work to share with everyone — it will be the same for coronavirus.”_

But I suppose it all depends on what you want to accept as backing up the claim cainvest. From my perspective, it's a simple enough thing to understand that some people will derive a false sense of security. I don't need it backed up to conclude that by myself just based on common human behaviour.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> But I suppose it all depends on what you want to accept as backing up the claim cainvest. From my perspective, it's a simple enough thing to understand that some people will derive a false sense of security. I don't need it backed up to conclude that by myself just based on common human behaviour.


And since health Canada and the CDC are promoting the use of homemade masks I gather they have concluded the benefits outweight the potential false sense of security right?


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> And since health Canada and the CDC are promoting the use of homemade masks I gather they have concluded the benefits outweight the potential false sense of security right?


No, they are simply not addressing that aspect of wearing masks. I think one of the reasons why Dr. Tam has been reluctant to suggest wearing them was because they can give a false sense of security.

Saying it does no harm to wear one and they can help prevent spread is one topic. That they can give a false sense of security is a SEPARATE subject cainvest. It is not a question of one outweighing the other. Both need to be addressed.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> No, they are simply not addressing that aspect of wearing masks. I think one of the reasons why Dr. Tam has been reluctant to suggest wearing them was because they can give a false sense of security.
> 
> Saying it does no harm to wear one and they can help prevent spread is one topic. That they can give a false sense of security is a SEPARATE subject cainvest. It is not a question of one outweighing the other. Both need to be addressed.


I'm sure they are smart enough to have thought about the "false sense of security" and many other aspects before promoting mask use for the general public. And yes, it's about weighing in on all the factors to which they've decided mask use is in the public's best interest.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> Yada, yada, yada. You wrote about protecting yourself and 94% effectiveness. I quoted what you said. Anyone reading it would see that you were talking about protecting yourself. So what is the reader to take from that? If they do what you advise, they will achieve 94% protection for themselves. THAT is the message you gave.
> 
> Now address the point that was made by me and MrMatt in response to that. It will give many people a false sense of security. But you don't want to address that point do you. Perhaps because you cannot refute it.


I won't requote, you can sort of read though you cherry pick.

Already talked about protecting myself and others. Masks do both with various effectiveness. If that's the message you still took away, I can't control your bias
I wrote that effective filters can provide UP TO 94% effectiveness that includes protection for BOTH the user and those around them. I also wrote that assumes they are using it correctly, which is difficult. I have been trying to educate people, as well as many sources on how to properly use mask. If people don't use the mask properly, then of course it won't be 94%. I don't refute that, nor do I have any control over that. You know you who has the control, the person wearing the mask or not. I provide the information, it's up to people to decide how to use it.
Sure some people will have a false sense of security, just as some people will use the information correctly. You would rather say because some people will go out because of masks, we should just criticize the use of mask. It's no different than some people will use a seatbelt incorrectly, so we should highlight how seat belts don't work for some people and ignore that many people will use the seatbelt.
I cannot refute that some people will use mask incorrectly, and more than you can refute that they will be used correctly. I can make the claim that the next benefit of everyone wearing a mask properly will reduce the overall spread.




Longtimeago said:


> Do not try to use extremes as if they were absolutes cainvest. People do not have to be 'giving hugs' to be less careful about how often they go out or how strictly they adhere to distancing. Anything that makes them think they can go out more or worry less about distancing has a negative impact. Telling them that a mask will give them 94% protection certainly falls into that category.
> 
> Some people will understand and some will not. It is those who will NOT truly understand that we have to worry about, not those that will. But for anyone to try and suggest that we can ignore those that really don't understand and write about something that they will see as an excuse to act incorrectly is simply wrong. What we write is not just read by those who do understand.
> 
> *All* that anyone should be saying about masks is that *it does no harm to wear one and can help reduce spread*. ANY indication that it will provide YOU with 94% protection for YOU should never be mentioned because SOME people will take that entirely the wrong way.
> 
> Remember, the average IQ is 100 and that means there are a whole lot of stupid people out there.


Yep, there are a lot of stupid people out there, there are a lot of smart people out there too. Perhaps I associate with more smart people than you do. In my circle and extended circle, no one is thinking they should be going out more, they are thinking when I go out, how to do I protect myself and others around me better. I have given shop towels to friends and family. They are not going out any more than before, they are not stopping anything they did before because they have a mask, they have ADDED to their safety routine.

From what I have seen on CMF, there seems to be a lot of people above average in their IQ, sure not all, but I find the people in this forum for the most post quite intelligent. So when someone asks about filters, I share my information that a shop towel has the highest rating I have found with the exception of a HEPA filter. I share that because the person asking, I know is a smart guy and likes data from years of reading his posts. I also put in clarification of UP TO and IF USED CORRECTLY for those other here. I challenge you to find ONE person on here that says has decided to buy shop towels and will go out more because of the shop towels. 

Let me repeat for the 4th time, when I say something is UP TO 94% effective IF done properly, it is not a replacement. It means that if you are going to choose no filter vs coffee filter vs a shop towel, choose the shop towel IF YOU ARE ALREADY NEED TO GO OUT. You still didn't answer my question, when you must go out and have a choice between no mask, home made mask out of Kleenex or out of shop towel, which one would you prefer. THAT IS THE QUESTION.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> Well I can show you that WHO agrees with me that it can give a false sense of security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Face masks cannot stop healthy people getting Covid-19, says WHO
> 
> 
> Organisation’s evidence review shows wearing mask outside does not prevent infection
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other bodies are also concerned about it giving a false sense of security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t get lulled into false sense of security with homemade masks amid coronavirus pandemic: WRHA - Winnipeg | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Thinking of wearing a cloth mask while you're out in public? Manitoba health officials say it won't do much to protect you from COVID-19, but it still has its benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wearing face masks to combat coronavirus: False sense of security, or better than nothing? - Hong Kong Free Press HKFP
> 
> 
> By Sara Hussein The use of face masks in Asia during the coronavirus outbreak has been far more widespread than in the West, where governments have urged people to reserve supplies for frontline medical staff, so have they helped limit infections? Experts agree that the ordinary surgical masks...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hongkongfp.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From that last link:
> _“Masks may give people a false sense of security,” said Simon Clarke, an associate professor of cellular microbiology at the University of Reading.
> 
> Advocating mask usage, he fears, could also embolden people who are reluctant to adhere to social distancing measures.
> 
> “I can envisage a situation where people who are infected and therefore shedding virus, think their mask gives them licence to go out to public places or to work,” he told AFP.
> 
> “We all know people who think nothing of bringing colds into work to share with everyone — it will be the same for coronavirus.”_
> 
> But I suppose it all depends on what you want to accept as backing up the claim cainvest. From my perspective, it's a simple enough thing to understand that some people will derive a false sense of security. I don't need it backed up to conclude that by myself just based on common human behaviour.


Yada, yada, yada, great google link I have already read, and then cherry pick. Let me do the same from the SAME Articles you cited. 



> WHO reviewed its position on masks in light of data from Hong Kong indicating that their widespread use in the community may have reduced the spread of coronavirus in some regions.





> The WHO said people who chose to wear masks in public should follow





> its advice to ensure they were using them safely.





> “It would be helpful if high-risk people – elderly, people with chronic conditions – wear a face mask if they can’t avoid crowed areas, because these people have the highest risk of severe outcomes such as ICU/death if infected,”





> Manitoba health officials say it won’t do much to protect you from the novel





> coronavirus, but it still has its benefits.





> “It’s basically another way of covering a cough or a sneeze,” said Dr. Marcia Anderson,





> that covering your face should be used on top of other safety measures — not as a replacement for them.


 I have said this over and over again


> “(Masks should be worn) in addition to the evidence-based, strong recommendations that are already in place around physical distancing, frequent handwashing, and frequent disinfecting of commonly touched surfaces,” she said.


 and this



> Dr. Brent Roussin, the province’s chief medical health officer, said Monday that Manitobans should consider wearing masks to protect others from





> COVID-19 — but self-isolation is still the main way to stay safe.





> The use of masks in parts of Asia with relatively low numbers of infections and deaths from the virus, including Japan and Hong Kong, has led some to theorise mask-wearing is making the difference.





> Austria and Slovenia among others have already mandated their use, and top US scientist Anthony Fauci said this week that when supply is stable, mask-wearing recommendations may be broadened to help prevent infected people from spreading the virus.
> “One of the best ways to do that is with a mask,” he told CNN.





> “I think countries are looking at every possible measure to slow down transmission, so that even if a measure like face masks could only reduce transmission by a small amount, it might still be worth doing.”


So other than showing I can cut and paste as well at you, what does this post do. It shows that without context you can cherry pick whatever you like, but the main message is lost.
Yes, I get your message, stay at home, nothing is 100% safe, and don't go out because masks wont protect you and aren't safe.
My message is stay home, if not you have to go out choose the safest ways possible. That safe way includes physical distancing, disinfecting and cleaning routines, AND wearing a mask.


----------



## Northern Flicker

If I can go back to the start here, I'll chime in and say I use homemade masks and see it as a useful additive safety behavior in combination with distancing, hygiene, and limiting going out. I tried reading through the entire discussion here and I'm not sure a particular point was made fully about asymptomatic spread. As has been repeated though, the principal function of the improvised mask is to protect others from you spreading the virus, and if mask wearing is widespread, the benefit is clearly reciprocal. If you were infected but not yet displaying symptoms, you can still be spreading virus. Distancing and limiting your circulation will reduce the risk of you actively spreading virus, and wearing a mask will help. 

A good design that's easy to use and fits you well is important so that you can bear to use it effectively for the duration of your outing. However, there is _no_ home made mask and few enough 'professional' grade masks that will be an effective barrier to virus. As we've all heard, it's the droplets to which virus is attached that a mask can stop. Once you have a design you can handily use you'll want several that you can use in rotation, with the one you've got on going into the laundry, because you _do_ want to kill any pathogen that may be on it, not relying on the beastie to simply expire on its own. You wouldn't want any potential virus you've brought home to become air born in your living space after the mask dries out. And you certainly don't want to be using the same mask for more than one day.

It's not hard to make a reasonably good mask if you have the materials available, but much of that is unobtainable now. I like the design in these paired videos: 



 & 



 partly because of its simplicity, and the fact it uses cords rather than needing the now sold-out elastics. There is also a good pleated design promoted by the Facebook group Mask Makers YYC (Calgary). That uses elastic ear retainers, but you could modify it to work with draw strings. Both designs accommodate added filter material, and both incorporate nose bridge wires to improve fit and relative isolation. I'll add that in the absence of anything better I'd be happy to recommend and have on hand the bandana + two elastic jiffy mask as a stand-by option, but I couldn't find anywhere to buy even those simple things two weeks ago.

If anyone wants justification for the widespread use of masks, try googling Jeremy Howard or #Masks4All, and see what using them did for outcomes in the Czech Republic. It's hard to argue with mask use as an effectively additive curve flattening measure.


----------



## Plugging Along

@Northern Flicker Nice summary thanks for bring us back that masks can be useful and with some good information. I have been trying to get a better home made mask from the YYC Mask Makers, but their demand is high and my sewing ability is not great. I have been trying to supply materials is some could make a mask to my specification. 

On a side note, if you are in the Calgary area, elastic can be found if you put your name on a wait list. I was able to source meters of elastic to donate to some mask makers. If you are looking to make the mask yourself, there are some places you can get supplies from still, there are a lot of hacks and substitutes.

One can you use a pair of old (clean) pantyhose or tights to make the elastics. They are quite comfortable. Hair elastics, even elastics poultry ties work. Strings can be made from old t-shirts by cutting a small strip, sewing and flipping inside out. 

I posted about double shop towel secured with regular elastic works really well too. Other material people have been using on YYC masks are old sheets, clothing, I plan to cut up and old curtain, etc. 

In case you are looking for supplies, I can provide some ideas. Just make sure you don't go out more because some people think if you have a mask you will be led to believe you should go out more.


----------



## sags

Plugging..........Jason Kenney should have given you the $200 million to get masks made. You would have a factory churnng them out by now.


----------



## Northern Flicker

Thanks P.A. We've tried making our own with an old inherited sewing machine with mixed luck. We have a simple forming jig for making long thin straps, so no problem there. I decided to simply order something decent from makers advertising on Kijiji. I'd prefer to do the tie-ups with something like paracord if I could get it in the thinner, 3/16" coreless variety, and then use a cordlock rather than trying to fix a good slip knot behind my head: I'm on the fumble-fingered end of the dexterity spectrum. If MEC or any of the other outdoor outfitter shops was open it would likely be easy to find these things.

For fabric I'd probably just cut up a high thread count cotton pillow case. Ideally, the inner liner would be real linen, which might seem a bit of an elite touch, but that is about the most comfortable fabric I can think of. I can butcher an old shirt for that. 

The filter material is worth discussion. I have friends that just use cut up Melitta coffee filters. The blue shop towels get a lot of mention, and I understand why after the Business Insider article profiled the little US manufacturer Suay who did controlled particle filter bench tests with those products. Their finding that two layers of shop towel satisfied an intermediate HEPA standard was interesting, but that's still quite permeable to virus-sized particles. So it makes more sense to me to use a swatch of that material as the inserted filter in a washable fabric casing. Also, I've turned cowtown upside down for the shop towels that gave them that HEPA grade result - the Wypall X80 & Zep products. Just a couple more examples of currently unobtainable material. I think one of the box stores had stock of the lower performance Scott Pro towels tested by Suay, but those too are all gone now. The common Scott blue towels are around, but those are not what the Suay study tested. Given all that, it makes sense to use cut-up HEPA vacuum bags. I haven't troubled to look and find out if those have all been scooped already.

The Czech activist that Jeremy Howard brought to our attention, Petr Ludvig, used filter media pulled from a 3M Filtrete 2200 furnace filter. One of those will provide more than enough filter swatches for a couple of people using a new piece each day they wear the mask. You can buy one of those 2200's for about $35, and I get why Ludwig chose it because the packaging indicates it's rated to capture viruses. But, when you look more closely you find its actual capacity is for "_capturing the particles to which the virus attaches itself_". And it manages to do that as two layers downstream of a metal grid which passively takes on an electrostatic charge from the air passing through it. All of that together is what makes it a high-efficiency furnace filter. A single layer of the filter media by itself is not going to do what the assembled furnace filter does. Still, it is yet one more option as a filter swatch to stick inside a cloth mask envelope. Since Filtrete 1900 & 2200's are what I use at home I can always get the material, but I wouldn't destroy a good furnace filter for that.


----------



## agent99

Still surprised that simple masks are not available and being given out. Even in 3rd world countries this is happening. Everyone getting onto a mini-buss taxi or catching a train has to have a mask, and they are handing them out free of charge. Why, in a country like ours, do we not have a similar program? The masks might not be that effective , but they must surely reduce the distance droplets can travel.
While I am about it, my other beef is the 2M distance rule. Aerosol droplets can stay suspended for an extended period. If there is any air movement, they can be transported much greater distances. For example air movement from heating or air conditioners. Or outdoor by air currents or wind. Mostly it's not a bad guide, but if you are walking down a supermarket aisle, you are breathing in the breath of the person in front of you. For this reason alone - wear a mask!
Or better still - stay home!


----------



## Longtimeago

I'm getting really annoyed at reading such obvious nonsense.

Can anyone point to any clinical studies that have been done that show a homemade mask using two layers of 'blue shop towels' is 94% effective in stopping the TRANSMISSION of the virus? Never mind being 94% effective in stopping the CONTRACTING of the virus. 

Does it take much intelligence to know that there are no such studies and to ask, 'so where did these numbers come from?' People are saying all kinds of things online, it doesn't make them factual.

Here is an actual study on surgical masks to read. 


ACP Journals



While it was a very small study, it showed what it showed. 

I'll repeat once more for the hard of hearing. The ONLY things we can say about wearing a mask is that it will not do any harm to wear one and it MAY have some effectiveness in reducing TRANSMISSION. That is all anyone should be saying about the subject and there should certainly not be anyone suggesting to people that any kind of homemade mask is 94% efffective in stopping you from CONTRACTING the virus.


----------



## Longtimeago

agent99 said:


> Still surprised that simple masks are not available and being given out. Even in 3rd world countries this is happening. Everyone getting onto a mini-buss taxi or catching a train has to have a mask, and they are handing them out free of charge. Why, in a country like ours, do we not have a similar program? The masks might not be that effective , but they must surely reduce the distance droplets can travel.
> While I am about it, my other beef is the 2M distance rule. Aerosol droplets can stay suspended for an extended period. If there is any air movement, they can be transported much greater distances. For example air movement from heating or air conditioners. Or outdoor by air currents or wind. Mostly it's not a bad guide, but if you are walking down a supermarket aisle, you are breathing in the breath of the person in front of you. For this reason alone - wear a mask!
> Or better still - stay home!


Congrats agent99, you got the last two words entirely right. A mask will not protect you to any significant degree, from contracting the virus.

But the BELIEF that it will can only lead to entirely predictable behaviour.


----------



## Plugging Along

Q


sags said:


> Plugging..........Jason Kenney should have given you the $200 million to get masks made. You would have a factory churnng them out by now.


Lol... maybe, but there would always be someone complaining. I know enough that there is way to much arm chairing when it comes to anything government does. 

I prefer to just figure things out and get things done.


----------



## Retired Peasant

All these posts about masks not protecting the wearer, need to explain why healthcare workers are wearing them.


----------



## Money172375

My own opinion is that homemade masks and even surgical masks offer a little protection but not much. I think the government was tired of debating it and said...go ahead, wear a mask. I wear them when I go out. Even if it just reminds me not to touch my face.
people want some assurances they are doing something to protect themselves.

as far as I know, surgical masks are to protect against blood and “heavy splatter” that may occur during surgery. If the best masks were that great, health care workers shouldn’t be contracting the virus in the numbers they are. In the end, it’s all about interior exposure time in my opinion.


----------



## Plugging Along

Northern Flicker said:


> Thanks P.A. We've tried making our own with an old inherited sewing machine with mixed luck. We have a simple forming jig for making long thin straps, so no problem there. I decided to simply order something decent from makers advertising on Kijiji. I'd prefer to do the tie-ups with something like paracord if I could get it in the thinner, 3/16" coreless variety, and then use a cordlock rather than trying to fix a good slip knot behind my head: I'm on the fumble-fingered end of the dexterity spectrum. If MEC or any of the other outdoor outfitter shops was open it would likely be easy to find these things.


I feel I have just met my internet twin (when it comes to mask thinking). I am testing a design for the cordlock. I had a couple from an old jacket. I have to find something thin enough to feed in. If you are looking for cordlocks, try Walmart and the sewing stores. There are still a few opened and posted on the YYC Mask page. I can also PM you for the place I went to for my elastic and sewing foot. 

Ironically, I am lousy sewer though I know a lot of people who are sewers. I have been researching, testing and proto-typing different parts of the masks, and they help me make them. I don't want to waste hard to find materials, so those who are better at sewing will do it for me. I am also am pretty good a getting stuff and sourcing materials. Seems like a fair deal. 




> For fabric I'd probably just cut up a high thread count cotton pillow case. Ideally, the inner liner would be real linen, which might seem a bit of an elite touch, but that is about the most comfortable fabric I can think of. I can butcher an old shirt for that.


Nice on the linen. I have a friend who is quilter and was told that quilter cotton is less porous. I leave the fabric choice to those who understand that more



> The filter material is worth discussion. I have friends that just use cut up Melitta coffee filters. The blue shop towels get a lot of mention, and I understand why after the Business Insider article profiled the little US manufacturer Suay who did controlled particle filter bench tests with those products. Their finding that two layers of shop towel satisfied an intermediate HEPA standard was interesting, but that's still quite permeable to virus-sized particles. So it makes more sense to me to use a swatch of that material as the inserted filter in a washable fabric casing. Also, I've turned cowtown upside down for the shop towels that gave them that HEPA grade result - the Wypall X80 & Zep products. Just a couple more examples of currently unobtainable material. I think one of the box stores had stock of the lower performance Scott Pro towels tested by Suay, but those too are all gone now. The common Scott blue towels are around, but those are not what the Suay study tested. Given all that, it makes sense to use cut-up HEPA vacuum bags. I haven't troubled to look and find out if those have all been scooped already.


I had heard that about the coffee filters. However, I couldn't find the studies that rating them again. When I first read it, I thought the filter were higher in effectiveness than paper towel or cotton by themselves, but not as good as the shop vac. I had a vacuum filter to test, but breathability really sucks. I felt that I was sucking a semi plastic bag. I couldn't see me shopping in that for hours but could see why it would work. 

I haven't seen the Wpall X80 at all, is that the same as Toolbox? Zep was available at autoparts stores. I had connections through a family mechanic who always has them. I told them to stop using them for work, and I would give them the Scott shop towels. They agreed. The Scot Pro is available on and off through some big box, but I stopped looking. I happen to have a Costco size bag of Scott towels from years ago. They still had them the other other day too . I wonder if the Scott Shop Towels are better than coffee filters. 

To be honest I haven't been looking for myself as much, I had manage to procure a whole bunch of P2.5 filters before, they are a five layer. I have been doing my mask research more to help those around me.



> The Czech activist that Jeremy Howard brought to our attention, Petr Ludvig, used filter media pulled from a 3M Filtrete 2200 furnace filter. One of those will provide more than enough filter swatches for a couple of people using a new piece each day they wear the mask. You can buy one of those 2200's for about $35, and I get why Ludwig chose it because the packaging indicates it's rated to capture viruses. But, when you look more closely you find its actual capacity is for "_capturing the particles to which the virus attaches itself_". And it manages to do that as two layers downstream of a metal grid which passively takes on an electrostatic charge from the air passing through it. All of that together is what makes it a high-efficiency furnace filter. A single layer of the filter media by itself is not going to do what the assembled furnace filter does. Still, it is yet one more option as a filter swatch to stick inside a cloth mask envelope. Since Filtrete 1900 & 2200's are what I use at home I can always get the material, but I wouldn't destroy a good furnace filter for that.


I haven't testing the furnace filter because my spouse lost all of ours. We are planning to buy some more (for our furnace) but haven't gone out. I have read that you need to be careful of any filter that has fiber glass and you almost need a filter to prevent you breathing in the fiberglass.

You are right about the electrostatic being an important part. That's partially how the N95 work. If you wash them or putting alcohol they loose the charge. That makes sense about the furnace filters. I plan to research active carbon filters to see if the will provide much filteration and how. 

Thanks for all of this information. Very helpful and interesting.


----------



## Longtimeago

Retired Peasant said:


> All these posts about masks not protecting the wearer, need to explain why healthcare workers are wearing them.


Three reasons for that. One, the healthcare worker may be infected and could spread it, so they wear them in the HOPE it will reduce the chance of them spreading the virus. Two, it can offer them some protection against the virus getting in through their mouth and nose, as do goggles protect it getting in through the eyes and a face shield protects against all 3 points of entry.

The third reason is that as these precautions have proven effective in the past with other viruses, there is a possible but unproven reason to consider they MAY be effective against this virus. But there is no actual proof since there has not been time to do the necessary studies yet. 

The study I linked above indicates that in fact the surgical masks will not protect against transmission by the wearer. 
_" In conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface."_


----------



## Longtimeago

Money172375 said:


> My own opinion is that homemade masks and even surgical masks offer a little protection but not much. I think the government was tired of debating it and said...go ahead, wear a mask. I wear them when I go out. Even if it just reminds me not to touch my face.
> people want some assurances they are doing something to protect themselves.
> 
> as far as I know, surgical masks are to protect against blood and “heavy splatter” that may occur during surgery. If the best masks were that great, health care workers shouldn’t be contracting the virus in the numbers they are. In the end, it’s all about interior exposure time in my opinion.


Dr. Tam was very clear when she said go ahead and wear them. She carefully did not attribute ANY effectiveness to doing so, either as a means of reducing spread or as a means of protection from contracting the virus. All she implied was that it won't hurt to wear them and they MAY prevent some spread. She never even implied they will protect you.

It is about potential exposure as you say, the more exposure you have the more risk of contracting the virus there will be. Stay home as much as POSSIBLE is still the best way to PROTECT yourself. Then maintain distancing if you MUST go out. 

People may want assurances they are doing something to protect themselves and they can be given those assurances in regards to staying home and maintaining distance but they cannot be given any assurances that wearing a mask will help them protect themselves. There is no evidence to support such an assurance.


----------



## andrewf

Longtimeago said:


> Dr. Tam was very clear when she said go ahead and wear them. She carefully did not attribute ANY effectiveness to doing so, either as a means of reducing spread or as a means of protection from contracting the virus. All she implied was that it won't hurt to wear them and they MAY prevent some spread. She never even implied they will protect you.
> 
> It is about potential exposure as you say, the more exposure you have the more risk of contracting the virus there will be. Stay home as much as POSSIBLE is still the best way to PROTECT yourself. Then maintain distancing if you MUST go out.
> 
> People may want assurances they are doing something to protect themselves and they can be given those assurances in regards to staying home and maintaining distance but they cannot be given any assurances that wearing a mask will help them protect themselves. There is no evidence to support such an assurance.


I don't think she said this or that it is supported by evidence. There is plenty of evidence that using a mask reduces the amount of droplets you spread into the air (same as advice to cough/sneeze into your elbow) so is effective to reducing the risk of infecting others. LTA, your incessant harping at people is not really informing or persuading anyone. Some people have to serve others, and not just be served like yourself. Serving others means taking measured risks while going in public.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> She carefully did not attribute ANY effectiveness to doing so, *either as a means of reducing spread* or as a means of protection from contracting the virus.


Really?


----------



## Longtimeago

cainvest said:


> Really?


Fair enough cainvest I overstated my case. She DID say it provides some protection from spread. She also DID say there is no evidence to show it protects the wearer from contracting the virus.

Now go bother those saying it provides 94% protection for the wearer. Here is what was written in post #84:
_"Unless one is using a thin worn out material, *protection for the wearer *is greater than percent. A cotton t shirt doubled is somewhere between 40-65%, a double knit dishcloth is about 80%. Hepa filter is about 90% close to surgical masks. In fact, studies have been showing a double shop towel depending on brand will give up to 94%."_

How much clearer does it have to be made that masks are being touted as protecting the WEARER and that if believed by others will only lead to a false sense of security for people. Go and chastise that poster cainvest.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> How much clearer does it have to be made that masks are being touted as protecting the WEARER and that if believed by others will only lead to a false sense of security for people. Go and chastise that poster cainvest.


You're the one with the "false sense of security" problem not me.


----------



## GreatLaker

You'se guyz gotta lighten up.
Face masks CAN be dangerous!


----------



## :) lonewolf

Face masks is just part of the mind game. Getting people to wear face masks just makes everything look more scary. The pics on TV & in the papers of the fake nurses/doctors that were out trying to stop the protests were wearing their masks wrong. The elastics bands were crossed no professionals would have worn them that way. As well as no labeling on their uniforms


----------



## Money172375

Are there any reliable sources to purchase decent masks? I can’t find any.

Apparently Amazons best selling mask isn't even considered medical grade. Although not a strong source. 









Hurry: Amazon's best-selling face masks are somehow still in stock


If you purchase an independently reviewed product or service through a link on our website, we may receive an affiliate commission. Learn more. Amazon’s best-selling face masks arrived back in stock earlier this week and thousands of our readers rushed to the site in order to stock up on them...




bgr.com





if wearing masks is the new norm for 2020, are we left with home made versions?


----------



## agent99

Money172375 said:


> Are there any reliable sources to purchase decent masks? I can’t find any.


I have posted about that several time. 3rd world countries are handing them out free. Yet we don't even know where we can get them, other than make them ourselves.


----------



## Northern Flicker

Money & Agent, if you want to make your own good designs are readily available with patterns and instructions. I can point a few out of you want. However, if like me you are not sewing machine literate and/or you lack the raw materials, then you can take advantage of the cottage industry developing around homemade masks. Simply go to Kijiji Calgary and search on 'mask'. I have two different types I bought that way, and minutes ago I checked to find that there now many more makers offering masks in varied designs. For the cost of a pair of jeans you could get 5 to 7 washable masks to keep you going, using one per day and cycling them through the laundry.

I'll likely buy more, or have a skilled friend who offered to do so make a couple of the better designs for me. Consider that using masks may become standard practice for the next year or longer, particularly if - more likely when - we see a second pulse of increased spread.


----------



## Money172375

My daughter has made a few. I find that wearing for more than 15 minutes is not fun. I think I’d prefer a box of 100 medical masks. Wonder if we’ll ever seen them In stores by the fall? Amazon has some but all with poor ratings.


----------



## like_to_retire

Northern Flicker said:


> ...................................



OMG, Northern Flicker, it was fortuitous that you posted.

Today, there was a beautiful bird in my backyard tree that I'd never seen before.

I searched the internet and couldn't find it, and then you posted, and I saw your icon and recognized it right away.

ltr


----------



## Eder

Now thats a pretty bird...around Alberta all we get are these circling lately...
300 × 370


----------



## Northern Flicker

Money172375 said:


> My daughter has made a few. I find that wearing for more than 15 minutes is not fun. I think I’d prefer a box of 100 medical masks. Wonder if we’ll ever seen them In stores by the fall? Amazon has some but all with poor ratings.


Gotcha. They do take some getting used to. Before all this started I think the boxes of med masks you could get were quite good quality. I assume that's the case on account of the number of folks I've met standing in lines who had what looked like quite good, professional/medical quality masks. When I asked them where they found them the answer is always something like "my brother in law is in the business". I haven't seen anything currently openly available like that that I would be confident enough to order, based in part on the shakey reviews they get. 

What design did you try, and what was it that put you off about it?


----------



## Northern Flicker

Yup, the Flicker is one handsome bird and a favorite of mine, and that's an especially good photo you found of one. That choice of avatar is aspirational: I should look half as good, or dress half as well! I've got more in common with contributor Eder's fine figure of a Turkey Vulture. A true sign of Spring has been an energetic male Flicker pounding on my chimney cap like a high-speed riveter around dawn. They make as much noise as they can as a mating advertisement. You'll sometimes see them doing the same thing on the metal shells of street lights. I've found that you can keep Flickers occasionally returning to your yard if you load a feeder with some of the larger stuff, like peanuts & dried fruit. It better be squirrel proof though. Flickers will also go for suet blocks if you put up the variety with larger food bits in them. Same story for Bluejays, and I'll bet you like them too. It's good to keep a few Flickers interested in your yard as they'll occasionally settle in and lay some serious hurt on one or more of the multi-season ant colonies. Have at 'em boys!


----------



## Money172375

Northern Flicker said:


> Gotcha. They do take some getting used to. Before all this started I think the boxes of med masks you could get were quite good quality. I assume that's the case on account of the number of folks I've met standing in lines who had what looked like quite good, professional/medical quality masks. When I asked them where they found them the answer is always something like "my brother in law is in the business". I haven't seen anything currently openly available like that that I would be confident enough to order, based in part on the shakey reviews they get.
> 
> What design did you try, and what was it that put you off about it?


Can tell you the design.....she’s tired various materials on the exterior with a fleece interior core. Just felt it was warm and slightly difficult to breathe. It’s manageable but I’d prefer the masks you speak about. Disposable and with a nice fit around the nose.


----------



## Plugging Along

Money172375 said:


> Can tell you the design.....she’s tired various materials on the exterior with a fleece interior core. Just felt it was warm and slightly difficult to breathe. It’s manageable but I’d prefer the masks you speak about. Disposable and with a nice fit around the nose.


I think the fleece on the inside is what is causing the breath ability problem. It is hot and doesn’t wick moisture. Cotton or cotton blend would be better. I still have found the shop towel filter inside to be the most breathable.


----------



## Money172375

Gotta love the Germans....









German New Coronavirus Cases Hold Below 2,000; 154 Deaths







www.bloomberg.com


----------



## james4beach

Today I walked into the bank with my mask.

Actually, I first walked in with my mask down around my neck, and face visible. There was someone greeting people inside, so I smiled and asked: is it OK if I wear my mask while banking? She said yes... so then I put my mask on, and went to the teller.

I was also careful to dress nicely as this usually changes perceptions of who is bad/good. And not carrying any bag or backpack so it's clear I don't have any "equipment" with me.

Obviously, don't wear the mask when you walk in. Face must be visible.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

DIY copper coated anti viral face mask. Apparently copper kills viruses on contact and a copper coated mask is most effective protection. There is a lot of info on the net, this video tells how to make your own.


----------



## james4beach

Copper is dangerous to work with and there's a risk of poisoning yourself. These other weird mask types (like using vacuum cleaner bags) also have dangers due to the materials involved.

I'm only sticking to basic cotton and simple fabrics myself, with a preference for 100% cotton, or materials specifically designed to be worn as masks already.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Are you out of your mind? Millions of homes have copper pipes and people drink water that went thru copper pipes all the time, copper pots and pans have been used for thousands of years, where are all the dead bodies of people who died from contact with copper?


----------



## james4beach

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Are you out of your mind? Millions of homes have copper pipes...


No, I am not out of my mind. I'm saying you have to be careful working with the materials. A copper pipe is one thing. Dusts, fumes, solutions involving copper are another matter.

One of my best friends once ended up in the hospital due to copper poisoning.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Are you out of your mind? Millions of homes have copper pipes and people drink water that went thru copper pipes all the time, copper pots and pans have been used for thousands of years, where are all the dead bodies of people who died from contact with copper?


Inhaling copper on the other hand...


----------



## agent99

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Are you out of your mind? Millions of homes have copper pipes and people drink water that went thru copper pipes all the time, copper pots and pans have been used for thousands of years, where are all the dead bodies of people who died from contact with copper?


I agree that copper generally does the body no harm. And in fact it can apparently help those with arthritis or other joint ailments. They sell those copper bands for that purpose. Don't know how well they work, but African and perhaps other tribes knew about this thousands of years ago.
A much easier way to coat a mask, would be to buy some copper gasket spray from an auto parts store.
NOTE: I am not suggesting doing this!

My concern is not the copper, but

The copper will block pores in mask making breathing in and out through the mask more difficult.
Possibly breathing copper particles into the lungs where just like various other dusts etc, they could cause respiratory harm.
If copper would be beneficial, perhaps fabric masks could have a copper gauze insert? About same physically as say a window screen.

This is an interesting site that talks about benefits of copper. Someone should send link to Trump - He would get things moving on this!









Copper kills coronavirus. Why aren’t our surfaces covered in it?


Civilizations have recognized copper’s antimicrobial properties for centuries. It’s time to bring the material back.




www.fastcompany.com


----------



## cainvest

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Apparently copper kills viruses on contact and a copper coated mask is most effective protection.


Key word "apparently".

Quick google search turned up ... "remained viable for up to 2 to 3 days on plastic and stainless steel surfaces vs. up to 4 hours on copper".


----------



## GreatLaker

This person has a uniquely creative solution to the problem of finding it difficult to breathe through a mask. She is from Kentucky, Mitch McConnell's state.😷


----------



## Mukhang pera

View attachment 20149
View attachment 20149


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## Mukhang pera




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## Longtimeago

Mukhang pera said:


> View attachment 20150


Gotta be an American *******. The guy, not the beer brand. Or maybe it's both?


----------



## Mukhang pera

Longtimeago said:


> Gotta be an American *******. The guy, not the beer brand. Or maybe it's both?


It's a selfie! ******* all the way!


----------



## james4beach

Taiwan is now producing 19 million face masks _daily_ due to the efforts of a "national mask team", with rapid establishment of 92 production lines coordinated by a government & private industry partnership. That's 19 million masks a day, for a population of 24 million people.

Taiwan to produce 19 million face masks daily... | Taiwan News

How many is Canada producing? When did we become such a backwards country that can't take care of ourselves?

Why can I still not buy ANY kind of mask other than homemade amateur things? Or maybe I'm wrong... *is there a place I can go to buy factory-made surgical masks?*


----------



## Money172375

I can’t find any. My daughter made a few. I just ordered some cheap “home made” ones from Old Navy. 5 for $15. I learned from the TP.......I’m buying whatever I can at reasonable costs. It is surprising how lean and “just-in-time” our manufacturing is. I’ve seen sanitizing wipes once since min-March and haven’t seen Lysol at all. Hand sanitizer is limited to 60ml bottle. We’re now 2 months in. Surprising. If there is a “Manhattan project”-like effort going on, it isn’t well publicized. 

off Topic......I just watched a NOVA tv special. The digital tracing in China is intense. Every bus, building, checkpoint has a QR code you need to scan. Tracks movements and gives clearances as to whether or not you’ve been around infected people.


----------



## sags

China looks after us cradle to grave. It is only by the grace of God that we can still wipe ourselves.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> Taiwan is now producing 19 million face masks _daily_ due to the efforts of a "national mask team", with rapid establishment of 92 production lines coordinated by a government & private industry partnership. That's 19 million masks a day, for a population of 24 million people.
> 
> Taiwan to produce 19 million face masks daily... | Taiwan News
> 
> How many is Canada producing? When did we become such a backwards country that can't take care of ourselves?
> 
> Why can I still not buy ANY kind of mask other than homemade amateur things? Or maybe I'm wrong... *is there a place I can go to buy factory-made surgical masks?*


I stopped at a gas station that advertised having hand sanitizer and masks. I'm sure at eye watering prices.

You never got the buff you ordered?


----------



## MrMatt

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Are you out of your mind? Millions of homes have copper pipes and people drink water that went thru copper pipes all the time, copper pots and pans have been used for thousands of years, where are all the dead bodies of people who died from contact with copper?


I guess you didn't know that there are regulations on this.
It's actually a requirement that plumbing fixtures be tested to only leach only a certain amount of copper.

Copper in drinking water - Canada.ca
https://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/pubs/331-178.pdf


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> You never got the buff you ordered?


I got one, but it doesn't work so well. It doesn't stay up. It's also too thin on its own (even if you double it over itself) so it requires that you insert some other thing into it. That becomes just about impossible to wrangle if I'm out & about for hours.


----------



## GreatLaker

I love this exchange where CBS reporter Weijia Jiang is so taken aback by Trump`s belligerent response to her question she pulled her mask down off her mouth (at 0:33 in the video) to ask her follow-up question. Then Drump stomped out of the press briefing.


----------



## Beaver101

GreatLaker said:


> I love this exchange where CBS reporter Weijia Jiang is so taken aback by Trump`s belligerent response to her question she pulled her mask down off her mouth (at 0:33 in the video) to ask her follow-up question. Then Drump stomped out of the press briefing.


 ... I didn't see this video until now ... and surely enough, the full competency of the POSTUS on display. I'm surprised he didn't cry and stomped his foot when asked that question. Guess it's easier to brush it off and make a quick exit than having to answer such "hard" questions. 

I suggest the reporters should be asking him easier quesations like "what did he have for breakfast?" but not before asking whether he brushed his teeth or which side of the bed he fell off from most mornings.


----------



## Longtimeago

Even Taiwan's 19 million masks a day for 24 million people is not enough. You guys realize that right?


james4beach said:


> I got one, but it doesn't work so well. It doesn't stay up. It's also too thin on its own (even if you double it over itself) so it requires that you insert some other thing into it. That becomes just about impossible to wrangle if I'm out & about for hours.


Buff is the brand name for the original product. There are many copy cats which are of inferior quality. I have owned a buff for about 15 years or so now. There is no problem with it staying up and I suspect that any that do have this problem are because they are not in fact a Buff, but a poorer quality copy that uses perhaps a less elastic fabric.

While I originally bought mine as part of my hiking/backpacking gear, my most common use for it nowadays is when I am snowblowing our driveway. I use it as a mask for my lower face just as you would in the current situation.




You can see just how stretchy it is in that video and how tightly it does fit when used to cover the lower face. You would have to have an extremely small head for it to not stay up.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump responded that way because she was asking for it. His point was that the US was doing a good job of testing. Her response was why do you have to make everything a competition which is not what he said at all. She should know by now that if you attack Trump you can expect him to defend himself.


----------



## GreatLaker

Many times the reporters are just baiting Trump. If they can get him to say something controversial, or that would be considered un-presidential by any historical measure, it gives the networks something to talk about on that day's news cycle.

And Trump inevitably falls for it.


----------



## james4beach

I think the press is going way too easy on Trump. They should demand that he resign and _they should give him hell_ if he refuses to.

Trump is stupid, incompetent, and is putting many peoples' lives in danger. He has no idea how to run a country (or a successful business) and is causing significant harm to lives & property.

His goofy stupidity was kind of entertaining before, but it's downright dangerous now. A man like this does not suddenly become sensible and intelligent. He will be stupid and incompetent until the day he dies, and he's harming America.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I think the press is going way too easy on Trump. They should demand that he resign and _they should give him hell_ if he refuses to.
> 
> Trump is stupid, incompetent, and is putting many peoples' lives in danger. He has no idea how to run a country (or a successful business) and is causing significant harm to lives & property.
> 
> His goofy stupidity was kind of entertaining before, but it's downright dangerous now. A man like this does not suddenly become sensible and intelligent. He will be stupid and incompetent until the day he dies, and he's harming America.


It's hard to understand how Trump got elected, until you see who the DNC is choosing to run against him.
They're doing more to re-elect Trump than Trump is.


Can you suggest a world leader who isn't stupid, incompetent and putting many peoples lives in danger?

It's clear that Trudeau is stupid and incompetent, and putting peoples lives at risk, but I don't hear many calls to kick him out. Even I'm not even calling to kick him out for his incompetence.

For his ethical violations and blantant lies, sure, he should be out of office, if not in jail.
But not for incompetence.

I don't think politicians should be kicked out simply because they're "doing a bad job". That's dangerous.


----------



## andrewf

It's mind boggling to me that people support Trump, yet criticize Trudeau for being dumb, corrupt, vapid, vain, etc. The cognitive dissonance is real.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> It's mind boggling to me that people support Trump, yet criticize Trudeau for being dumb, corrupt, vapid, vain, etc. The cognitive dissonance is real.


Are there really people like that?

There is a difference between supporting someone, and agreeing with some of their actions.

It's pretty clear that Trump and Trudeau are the same.
They're both dumb (except politically, they're smart there), corrupt, vain, narcissistic sociopaths.

I honestly don't see how you could possible support either one. 

Actually that's not fair, I understand the pothead position, you want your drugs, and you don't care about the consequences or repercussions. Beyond that, I think you have to be uninformed to think that he's acceptable.


----------



## agent99

What I admire about Canada as a whole vs USA in this whole Corona disaster, is how most Canadians have pulled together and kept politics out of it. We are proud of the way our Ontario Conservatives and Federal Liberals have managed an extremely difficult situation, with very little push-back from the opposition parties. I can't speak for other provinces, but likely same there. And would be regardless of political stripes.

Be careful about calling our hard working leaders dumb. I suspect that any one of our leaders are a lot smarter than those who post derogatory comments here about them. Almost by definition!


----------



## Retired Peasant

MrMatt said:


> Can you suggest a world leader who isn't stupid, incompetent and putting many peoples lives in danger?


Jacinda Ardern, PM of New Zealand


----------



## MrMatt

Retired Peasant said:


> Jacinda Ardern, PM of New Zealand


Shes the PM of a country smaller than Toronto.

I honestly don't know much or anything about her, so I can't fairly question her leadership.
I think it's telling that you had to go to #126 in world population., clearly we can agree that at least the G7/G20 are bad.


----------



## MrMatt

agent99 said:


> What I admire about Canada as a whole vs USA in this whole Corona disaster, is how most Canadians have pulled together and kept politics out of it. We are proud of the way our Ontario Conservatives and Federal Liberals have managed an extremely difficult situation, with very little push-back from the opposition parties. I can't speak for other provinces, but likely same there. And would be regardless of political stripes.
> 
> Be careful about calling our hard working leaders dumb. I suspect that any one of our leaders are a lot smarter than those who post derogatory comments here about them. Almost by definition!


For the most part I agree.
I'm particularly pleased with the earlier responses, Christia Freeland and Doug Ford really stepped up into statesmen and IMO seemed to be promoting teamwork. It was unexpected from Ford, and it raised my opinion of Freeland, and the Liberals in General.

I'm very disappointed that Trudeau seems intent on pushing for political advantage. I wouldn't put it past him to call a snap election while the CPC is in disarray.
Not that it isn't legal, or politically smart, but it is pretty low to take advantage of COVID19 for political gain.

Secondly I think the various programs and benefits the Feds are putting out, are a disaster, they're sprinkling money randomly, some people get money, some don't.
It doesn't seem to be based on any model of fairness I can comprehend. Not need, not equality, not even equity, it's just bizzarre.


----------



## GreatLaker

Yesterday's Corona Virus Task Force briefing was another mask disaster. The medical professionals were wearing masks, but the politicians were not. And they were all clustered together on the dais. Trump could not hear the reporters' questions because of the noise in the Rose Garden so he asked them to remove their masks when speaking. The reason for the noise was horns from some kind of truckers' protest outside. Trump lied and claimed the truckers were honking in support for him, then the reporters fact checked and exposed his lies.

At least the Canadian politicians can get simple things right, like physical distancing at a news conference.


----------



## MrMatt

GreatLaker said:


> Yesterday's Corona Virus Task Force briefing was another mask disaster. The medical professionals were wearing masks, but the politicians were not. And they were all clustered together on the dais. Trump could not hear the reporters' questions because of the noise in the Rose Garden so he asked them to remove their masks when speaking. The reason for the noise was horns from some kind of truckers' protest outside. Trump lied and claimed the truckers were honking in support for him, then the reporters fact checked and exposed his lies.
> 
> At least the Canadian politicians can get simple things right, like physical distancing at a news conference.


And not going to their cottage for the long weekend?









Trudeau under fire for Easter trip despite urging Canadians to ‘sacrifice’ plans - National | Globalnews.ca


Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer is also facing questions over family travel amid the coronavirus pandemic.




globalnews.ca






https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-cottage-covid-19-coronavirus-1.5561167



To be fair,
Trudeau simply violated the health recommendations of two provinces and lied about it. (He said he followed all health recommendations)
Ford broke his own recommendation and admitted it, even though he doesn't have a government funded staff to maintain his property.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> For the most part I agree.
> I'm particularly pleased with the earlier responses, Christia Freeland and Doug Ford really stepped up into statesmen and IMO seemed to be promoting teamwork. It was unexpected from Ford, and it raised my opinion of Freeland, and the Liberals in General.
> 
> I'm very disappointed that Trudeau seems intent on pushing for political advantage. I wouldn't put it past him to call a snap election while the CPC is in disarray.
> Not that it isn't legal, or politically smart, but it is pretty low to take advantage of COVID19 for political gain.
> 
> Secondly I think the various programs and benefits the Feds are putting out, are a disaster, they're sprinkling money randomly, some people get money, some don't.
> It doesn't seem to be based on any model of fairness I can comprehend. Not need, not equality, not even equity, it's just bizzarre.


The Liberals would be punished harshly if they went to the polls before the planned CPC leadership vote. However, I could see the merit of an election late this year or early next as Canadians probably should be given the opportunity to hear how the parties would suggest we handle the fiscal fallout of this crisis and vote on it. Circumstances have changed materially.


----------



## Eder

JT has pretty much bought every vote with our money.


----------



## sags

Not every vote. Just enough to win a majority government. Wear your shades.......sunny days ahead.


----------



## Retired Peasant

MrMatt said:


> Shes the PM of a country smaller than Toronto.


Well you didn't specify that the country had to be of a certain size, just a leader.


> I honestly don't know much or anything about her, so I can't fairly question her leadership.
> I think it's telling that you had to go to #126 in world population., clearly we can agree that at least the G7/G20 are bad.


That implies that I went through 125 to find her. She was the first to pop into my mind, actually.
What's the matter with you today - get up on the wrong side of bed?


----------



## Longtimeago

Just once I'd like to see a thread not degenerate into political ranting with the same posters spouting their same views over and over again.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> Just once I'd like to see a thread not degenerate into political ranting with the same posters spouting their same views over and over again.


Just once I'd like to see politicians step back and stop making a mess out of things.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> Just once I'd like to see politicians step back and stop making a mess out of things.


No one is perfect MrMatt and I know of no political party or system of government throughout history who have not got some things right and some things wrong. So what is the point of saying you would like to see politicians 'just once' not make a mess of things? You are in fact saying, no politician ever got anything right. Really?

Your comment is pointless really isn't it.


----------



## sags

Trudeau and the Liberals are increasing their lead over the Conservatives, not because Trudeau has done a perfectly "good" job, but because the Conservatives have done a perfectly "bad" job during the COVID crisis.

Conservative leaders go on national television and write op-eds in the WSJ complaining that Canadians are a lazy bunch and if CERB and the other support programs aren't eliminated they will all stay home and watch Netflix all day. Now they are demanding a full budget and regular sittings in Parliament so they can whine about the Liberals supporting all those Canadians lacking the motivation to work. Take away the CERB and force people to work, they say.

Is it any wonder that Canadians take offense and the Conservative poll numbers are dropping ?


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> No one is perfect MrMatt and I know of no political party or system of government throughout history who have not got some things right and some things wrong. So what is the point of saying you would like to see politicians 'just once' not make a mess of things? You are in fact saying, no politician ever got anything right. Really?
> 
> Your comment is pointless really isn't it.


I feel on many issues issues Governments cause more problems than they solve.

Sure they have a legitimate role in society, but they're failing in their fundamental responsibilities, while continuously expanding into areas where they are not needed.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> I feel on many issues issues Governments cause more problems than they solve.
> 
> Sure they have a legitimate role in society, but they're failing in their fundamental responsibilities, while continuously expanding into areas where they are not needed.


MrMatt, the same things were being said about the Roman Senate in the days of the Roman Empire. 

Remember the definition of insanity. Doing(or saying is equally as good) the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Complaining about governments or politicians over and over again is in my opinion a definition of insanity. We have quite a few posters in this forum as you know, who do just that.


----------



## :) lonewolf

LTA the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The pen is mightier then the sword. Pulitzer prize began with fake news that started a war. I have not read all of MrMatts posts though all the ones I have read have been of independent thinking & speak of truth. Everyone makes mistakes though that is different then intentional lies which the media is feeding us concerning COVID

My thinking is Baits has a monopoly on global health, has poly ticks in pocket & controls much of the media has managed to shut down the world economy. The lone wolfs that do not memorize & repeat but instead speak up for what they believe is good & true are the real hero's.

When I was a kid & watched a war movie I always wondered how Hitler could lead & the sheep follow. Now I am seeing it happen before my eyes. It will be interesting to see if the plandemic goes to the next stage of Certificate Of Vaccine ID (COVID) & puppet tracing. The vaccines which the drug companies have immunity from if they screw up will kill more then Hitler's gas chambers?

You have to ask yourself do you feel lucky when it is time for you get your vaccine shot


----------



## james4beach

Not sure how this went from a thread about proper use of masks, to political ramblings.

On the mask topic: I'm still using masks when I go shopping. Yesterday I was at a self-checkout station at Walmart. One of the employees came right up to my face (under 1 meter) and pitched their store credit card, or something. Practically spitting in my face -- I was very unhappy about that. She wasn't wearing a mask, but I was.

These masks might only be partially effective, but I'll use any extra protection I can get.

Imagine now, if she was wearing a mask too (as she should be). Then both of us would have increased protection.


----------



## AltaRed

My neighbour would have said in a very loud voice "Back off". Don't tolerate anyone breaking the distancing rules if it is reasonable to meet them, especially from a business employee who has to know better. It is plain ignorant.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> MrMatt, the same things were being said about the Roman Senate in the days of the Roman Empire.
> 
> Remember the definition of insanity. Doing(or saying is equally as good) the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
> 
> Complaining about governments or politicians over and over again is in my opinion a definition of insanity. We have quite a few posters in this forum as you know, who do just that.


I'm not sure what you're saying.
Are you saying that since democracy has had problems for thousands of years, we should try something else?

I think, despite the flaws, we should continue trying to do better than we have in the past. Through education and an informed populace, I think democracy and respect for human rights is the way forward.

I'm simply concerned about the increasing restrictions on speech, and a rejection of human rights by the modern progressives.


----------



## sags

James........my wife was out today picking up a few groceries and she said the same thing. Customers aren't wearing masks and neither are the employees. 

My son went through the Wendy drive thru and said the employees weren't wearing masks or gloves.

I figure a second wave is a certainty and we will be in another lock down situation until a vaccine is found.


----------



## james4beach

Thanks sags. This is not great news.

Unfortunately, people have very short memories. And by "short" apparently they can't even remember 2 weeks ago?

AltaRed is correct, and I should be more assertive about keeping people out of my space, but it's an uphill battle if the masses have now thrown caution to the wind just because they are no longer afraid.


----------



## sags

Democracy is working just fine. The Liberals are enacting the policies they got elected on.

I don't know why Conservatives expect the Liberals would care about Conservative priorities.


----------



## Plugging Along

Thanks James. Back on topic. The Canadian government issued a recommendation today that everyone wear facemasks even homemade ones. They have said even though there are no scientific studies that some protection is better than none. 



james4beach said:


> Thanks sags. This is not great news.
> 
> Unfortunately, people have very short memories. And by "short" apparently they can't even remember 2 weeks ago?
> 
> AltaRed is correct, and I should be more assertive about keeping people out of my space, but it's an uphill battle if the masses have now thrown caution to the wind just because they are no longer afraid.


I had to run out for a few things. I noticed most aren’t wearing masks and are very bad at distancing. I was waiting patiently for one person to finish her selection, when she said ‘yes.’ I told her I was just giving her space and will go there when finished. She started signing and huffing saying to just come and get my stuff. I said I would wait, and she got all upset. People just aren’t getting it. I have no problems politely telling some one to back away. I will continue to do so, especially if they don’t have masks. 

What I have noticed is those that have masks are much more aware of their surroundings. I tend to stay away from those without even more so.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> Thanks James. Back on topic. The Canadian government issued a *recommendation today that everyone wear facemasks even homemade ones*. They have said even though there are no scientific studies that some protection is better than none.
> . . .
> She started signing and huffing saying to just come and get my stuff. I said I would wait, and she got all upset. People just aren’t getting it. I have no problems politely telling some one to back away. I will continue to do so, especially if they don’t have masks.


Agreed, people just don't get it.


----------



## Money172375

Possible civil unrest is Not far away. Who would have predicted much of what is going on? Other than to say a pandemic is inevitable. To tp shortages, crowded grocery stores, lack of masks, lack of hand sanitizer, lack of disinfectant, close walkers.....the list goes on and on. Just spent a few minutes browsing tomorrows new grocery flyers. Pork specials abound.....but not any other meat.....could be Another small lack of supply. My mom said she couldn’t find coffee on her last trip.

as every day passes where one does not get sick, one will inevitably feel safer. We have a lake front home and the pressure from family to come for a visit is Building a lot. 

Masks will be the next shortage with today’s announcement, I’m hoping my order from old navy a few days ago get filled....they are are sold out now,

you‘re right...people are not getting it. I find it especially hard in a small town. The city we live close to (pop. 30,000) has had 15 cases. Nobody there wheres a mask and the grocery stores are full with no security at entrance.


----------



## agent99

Money172375 said:


> you‘re right...people are not getting it. I find it especially hard in a small town. The city we live close to (pop. 30,000) has had 15 cases. Nobody there wheres a mask and the grocery stores are full with no security at entrance.


I have seen the same thing. The weather is good, people are out and about. What could go wrong.

At a local golf course, the pro-shop had just one entrance and it was off a narrow path used by players moving from one hole to the next. . Sign on door said just two could enter at a time. Players were supposed to arrive 15 min ahead of time to play. Instead, there were at least a dozen golfers gathered outside the pro-shop door no more than 1-2ft apart (presumably so they wouldn't lose there place in line-up). Suggesting they move didn't get a good response! ISTM that some of the players didn't get it, and the course's management needed a better plan.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> Thanks James. Back on topic. The Canadian government issued a recommendation today that everyone wear facemasks even homemade ones. They have said even though there are no scientific studies that some protection is better than none.


"Dr. Tam says not only that but in terms of public use, current evidence suggests that if you do not have symptoms a mask causes more contact between your face and the outside of the mask which could be contaminated. She says if the public wants to use this measure they have to be very careful when taking it off."




__





Canada’s top doctor says wearing a mask not recommended : My Grande Prairie Now


Canada’s Chief Public Health Officer says if you are not sick, you shouldn’t have a mask on. Dr. Theresa Tam says we need to ensure that frontline healthcare workers have enough protective equipment. Dr. Tam says not only that but in terms of public use, current evidence suggests that if you do […]




www.mygrandeprairienow.com






Actually they literally stated the opposite, but hey, that's their "science based" recommendations.
This is just when they said quarantines and travel restrictions don't work, until 2 months too late they decided they'd work so well they're sending people out to ensure compliance with the mandatory quarantine.

I just think the flip flopping is destroying their credibility. People aren't going to listen to the government if they keep changing their minds.

To be fair I actually agree, a masks and gloves can work, but since most people use them wrong, they are likely to actually offer no net benefit, and possibly increase the risk of disease spread. That's a nuanced view, that I believe is likely correct, but it really isn't a good message for a public health advisory.


To me it seems that they're trying, I DO believe that. But I think that they're showing poor judgement flipping messages, it just gives the doubters more reason to doubt them.


----------



## Eder

I noticed Global tv tries really hard to show all their videos that contain people wearing masks...in the back ground no one is. I think I'll just stay my distance & avoid stores that require masks... I'm sure the propaganda will continue regardess...my guess is 5% of people in the Superstore here wear dust masks etc.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> "Dr. Tam says not only that but in terms of public use, current evidence suggests that if you do not have symptoms a mask causes more contact between your face and the outside of the mask which could be contaminated. She says if the public wants to use this measure they have to be very careful when taking it off."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s top doctor says wearing a mask not recommended : My Grande Prairie Now
> 
> 
> Canada’s Chief Public Health Officer says if you are not sick, you shouldn’t have a mask on. Dr. Theresa Tam says we need to ensure that frontline healthcare workers have enough protective equipment. Dr. Tam says not only that but in terms of public use, current evidence suggests that if you do […]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mygrandeprairienow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually they literally stated the opposite, but hey, that's their "science based" recommendations.
> This is just when they said quarantines and travel restrictions don't work, until 2 months too late they decided they'd work so well they're sending people out to ensure compliance with the mandatory quarantine.
> 
> I just think the flip flopping is destroying their credibility. People aren't going to listen to the government if they keep changing their minds.
> 
> To be fair I actually agree, a masks and gloves can work, but since most people use them wrong, they are likely to actually offer no net benefit, and possibly increase the risk of disease spread. That's a nuanced view, that I believe is likely correct, but it really isn't a good message for a public health advisory.
> 
> 
> To me it seems that they're trying, I DO believe that. But I think that they're showing poor judgement flipping messages, it just gives the doubters more reason to doubt them.


 Definitely agree that the flip flopping isn’t helping. It’s been said earlier that a mask will protect those around them more. The challenge is that people also able to spread while being asymptomatic, so unless you have no contact for 14 days, you could still be a carrier. 

I trust my emergency response recommendations which is a mask will help. Our chief even said even without double blind studies it is logical to think that covering your face will reduce spread for both you. and those around you. I don’t need the govenerment to tell me what makes logical sense. 

It’s been said that masks are only forth in terms of protection in preventing spread. The first is physical distancing, second engineering controls (plexiglass ect)), third good hygiene, then PPE/ masks. I figure I can control only part of number one, none of number two, and fully control myself for three and four.


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## Earl

I can't find a damn mask for sale anywhere. I'd wear one if I could find one. I ordered some on amazon a month ago but they shipped from china and still haven't arrived.


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## agent99

I started this thread a month ago with advice from someone who knows a bit about the effectiveness of masks. 
People in many countries wear masks in public, even without a pandemic. Especially in Asia. Those people are not stupid. It us in the West that are. 
I have no trouble with our experts being slow to accept that masks help. Now that things are opening up, this is the time for us to wear masks when in enclosed spaces like stores our outside in busy areas where it is hard to maintain distance.
Where to gets masks? A lot of people are making their own. Others have small cottage businesses making them - Search kijiji in your are, and you should find them.
Keep Safe!


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## MrMatt

Masks, used properly likely help.
However, masks are not likely to be used properly by most people. 
Used improperly they may cause more spread. That's specifically why there is even more question about masks for young children.

You can't "double blind" this study, anyone who would suggest it clearly hasn't thought it through, or is simply parrotting words they don't understand.
Double blind testing is only suitable for very specific types of investigation.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> Masks, used properly likely help.
> However, masks are not likely to be used properly by most people.
> Used improperly they may cause more spread. That's specifically why there is even more question about masks for young children.
> 
> You can't "double blind" this study, anyone who would suggest it clearly hasn't thought it through, or is simply parrotting words they don't understand.
> Double blind testing is only suitable for very specific types of investigation.


I have been reading through many studies and protocols since January. From what I can infer, wearing masks properly will slow down the rate of infection. The studies I read about where it may increase spread, when reading into the details, it sounds like there is a good chance the people will get sick anyways. Here's some random facts I have read (I won't take the time to find all the articles as I have already done my research)

Masks will reduce the amount particles going out in an infected person (protects others)
Virus particles have been found on outside of masks but not the inside (will protect the user).
If masks are moist (over 2 or 3 hours), the virus particles can be breathed in (will increase chances of infection. However, without a mask, they would have breathed these particles in earlier). Even when I am doing a marathon of running around, I have never had to wear a mask for 3 hours straight. I bring extra ones with me, and change at appropriate time. Lesson - change mask.
Viruses can be transferred from mask to person when touching face or taking off mask. Lessons - don't touch face, but this could happen anyway without a mask. I touch my face less with a mask, but that's me. Second lesson - wash hands before taking off mask and after

- Countries that have a wide culture of wearing masks seem to have this under better control. I still had a family and people we knew flying into Asian countries in the beginning of March. Their protocols were to wear masks in the office. 

Flip flopping definitely doesn't help, but right now, there are a few studies that say it MAY increase infection, but if you read in detail why, it still makes sense to wear masks. I wouldn't be surprised in a few months that there will be research that shows that wearing masks outweighs the risks of not wearing mask.


----------



## bgc_fan

Plugging Along said:


> Flip flopping definitely doesn't help, but right now, there are a few studies that say it MAY increase infection, but if you read in detail why, it still makes sense to wear masks. I wouldn't be surprised in a few months that there will be research that shows that wearing masks outweighs the risks of not wearing mask.


Flip flopping is to be expected as more data comes into play. There is intuitive sense that wearing a mask should reduce; however, the risk is that people assume they are completely protected and then go into crowded social situations where one person is infected and it turns out it's not effective.

This isn't much of a study, but it tried to see if masks would prevent the patient from transmitting the virus. The result is no: New study questions the effectiveness of masks against SARS-CoV-2. 
But it isn't much of a study... still, there's going to be conflicting data for the time being.

The danger is that masks aren't effective specifically for COVID-19, we open up, and then get a second wave of infections. Other studies may have used viral surrogates, so there is always a danger that it's not applicable to COVID-19.


----------



## Plugging Along

bgc_fan said:


> Flip flopping is to be expected as more data comes into play. There is intuitive sense that wearing a mask should reduce; however, the risk is that people assume they are completely protected and then go into crowded social situations where one person is infected and it turns out it's not effective.
> 
> This isn't much of a study, but it tried to see if masks would prevent the patient from transmitting the virus. The result is no: New study questions the effectiveness of masks against SARS-CoV-2.
> But it isn't much of a study... still, there's going to be conflicting data for the time being.
> 
> The danger is that masks aren't effective specifically for COVID-19, we open up, and then get a second wave of infections. Other studies may have used viral surrogates, so there is always a danger that it's not applicable to COVID-19.


The biggest danger is that people aren't physically distancing with or without mask. From what I have seen so far, many people are not physically distancing properly. Most people are not wearing masks of any sort. People just seem oblivious on what is going on or what they should do. I have also noticed that those that are wearing masks (not all of them) seem to be much more aware of their surrounding. It seems that those that are wearing masks are more conscientious of what's going on. This is totally anecdotal, but I have taken the time to observe people while I am out and about and I even take the time to sit in my car and watch how people are behaving waiting in lines. 

Here's what I have observed so far in my unscientific observations:

People don't know what 6 feet is even when it is marked on the floor. Wear I have seen the dots or 'x's to stand on, people often not leave a full space of six feet. The will stand somewhere in between the two dots and think just because there is a dot in front of them, they are okay. For example, I have stood just in front of a dot, the person is just on the other side of the dot. So now I always stand just behind a dot even if it takes two dots.
People don't know what 6 feet is when it's not marked. I have told many people to stand behind their cart and take a step back (if it's a small cart)
Non mask wearers seem to be more likely to not properly social distance in general. That could be because there are more non mask wearers around, or that people who choose to wear masks are much more cautious.
People that are from cultures or occupations that wear masks (I can only tell by visible features, so there may be some assumptions here) seem to distance a lot better.
Seniors are awful with their masks, but seem to be fine okay with physical distancing. I see so many seniors with masks, but they are not wearing them properly.

I have more observations, but I wonder if this will change as more people start wearing masks. In terms of kids, I have seen very few kids wear them. In fact, the kids that I see out in stores, which I don't think they should be (if there are two adults there) are running around. My kids stay at home unless I need them to be there, and when they are out, they need to wear masks. We have gone outdoors and I made them wear masks just so they can practice putting them on, breathing in them and taking them off. They hate it, but we bring masks anytime we leave the house just in case. 

There is conflicting data, but from what I have seen in other countries and studies a mask just makes sense.


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## bgc_fan

Plugging Along said:


> The biggest danger is that people aren't physically distancing with or without mask. From what I have seen so far, many people are not physically distancing properly. Most people are not wearing masks of any sort. People just seem oblivious on what is going on or what they should do. I have also noticed that those that are wearing masks (not all of them) seem to be much more aware of their surrounding. It seems that those that are wearing masks are more conscientious of what's going on.


It's a cultural thing. People in North America don't want to be told what to do. So even if you have the government recommending, or mandating mask usage, the same people who don't physically distance, won't be using masks. There's little that can be done unless people themselves decide to wear masks.


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## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> I have been reading through many studies and protocols since January. From what I can infer, wearing masks properly will slow down the rate of infection.


I agree, I think most people agree.
I'd just like to point out, that in my observations, very very few people are using them properly.

I've yet to notice a single person make a proper mask adjustment/application/removal in public. 
To be fair, I've only been out a few dozen times, but virtually nobody is doing it right.

Even with gloves, I've gone to Canadian tire, they're making a show of wiping down the registers and surfaces, but nobody is wiping the PIN pad. 

The big problem with masks & gloves is that they need to be used properly and consistently, or they're at best not helping, more likely they're offering a false sense of security.


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## sags

People who wear a mask protect me from their droplets that carry the virus and can travel quite a distance beyond 6 feet. 

How they put the mask on and off doesn't change that.


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## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> I agree, I think most people agree.
> I'd just like to point out, that in my observations, very very few people are using them properly.
> 
> I've yet to notice a single person make a proper mask adjustment/application/removal in public.
> To be fair, I've only been out a few dozen times, but virtually nobody is doing it right.
> 
> Even with gloves, I've gone to Canadian tire, they're making a show of wiping down the registers and surfaces, but nobody is wiping the PIN pad.
> 
> The big problem with masks & gloves is that they need to be used properly and consistently, or they're at best not helping, more likely they're offering a false sense of security.


Once again, a mask protects others, not the wearer. Yes, it is a good idea to wear one when you cannot maintain 2 metres distance. It will protect others if you are infected but asymptomatic and so do not know you are infected. That is the purpose of a mask.

ANY sense of security a mask gives the person wearing it is a FALSE sense of security.


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## Longtimeago

sags said:


> People who wear a mask protect me from their droplets that carry the virus and can travel quite a distance beyond 6 feet.
> 
> How they put the mask on and off doesn't change that.


Correct sags. Wear yours when you are near me and I will wear mine when I am near you. That's their purpose.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> Once again, a mask protects others, not the wearer. Yes, it is a good idea to wear one when you cannot maintain 2 metres distance. It will protect others if you are infected but asymptomatic and so do not know you are infected. That is the purpose of a mask.
> 
> ANY sense of security a mask gives the person wearing it is a FALSE sense of security.


Again you're wrong.
Masks work quite well, when worn properly. That's pretty much undeniable.

Improper use of PPE causes a false sense of security, but proper use actually makes things better.


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## MrMatt

Now Tam has flipped on travel restrictions and closing borders.

She was clearly wrong in her recommendations. 
I wasn't questioning her before, thinking maybe her expertise and access to better information gave her insight that the general population lacked.

Looks like she was wrong. I think we have to seriously question if she is the right person for the job.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> Again you're wrong.
> Masks work quite well, when worn properly. That's pretty much undeniable.
> 
> Improper use of PPE causes a false sense of security, but proper use actually makes things better.


NO, I am not wrong. A mask worn by the general public will have very little affect in protecting the wearer from the virus and that is who we are talking about here, the public.

A medical mask worn with other PPE equipment like a face shield, gloves, gown, etc. is worn to protect a healthcare worker as much as it is POSSIBLE to protect them and yet as we see, some still get the virus. 

The public and the healthcare worker get the virus from close contact with an infected person. A mask alone will do very little to stop that. So when Dr. Tam says, wear a mask when you cannot maintain distance, she is NOT talking about protecting yourself, she is talking about protecting others in case you are infected. That is ALL she is talking about. 

We have a poster here who tried to tell us that a homemade cloth mask with 2 layers of 'blue shop towels' was 94% effective in protecting the wearer. That is simply absurd. But it is typical of the mistaken belief people have as to what the purpose of wearing the mask is.

The best protection for yourself is to maintain your distance at all times. End of story.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> Now Tam has flipped on travel restrictions and closing borders.


In hind-sight, we should have closed earlier. The question is how early and to what degree? Keep in mind that most of the early infections came from the USA, not China. Canada’s early COVID-19 cases came from the U.S. not China, provincial data shows

So, should we have completely shut the border from January until now except for returning residents and essential traffic? Keep in mind, we would have to maintain the shutdown until other countries get their situation under control. Could we have stopped people from going on spring break? How do you think the USA would have taken it if we decided to shut the border back in January when they still thought it was a joke?

The other question is how would people take it if the situation in Canada didn't develop as it did? Would people blame the government for taking it all out of proportion as we would have had fewer cases than we do now?

We've been doing the social distancing for the past 2 months, you think we would have been fine doing for the past 4 months, if the situation wasn't a serious as it is now?


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## Longtimeago

Can face masks protect against COVID-19?


Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.




www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> NO, I am not wrong. A mask worn by the general public will have very little affect in protecting the wearer from the virus and that is who we are talking about here, the public.


Actually you're purposely conflating 2 different points.
1. I agree a mask worn by the general public will have little affect diesease spread.
I've been saying this for weeks.

2. A properly handled and work mask can help protect yourself and others.
I've been saying this for weeks as well.
Which is also true, if it helps protect yourself and others, it's not a "false sense of security"

You seem to be very confused on what my science and fact based position is.
I've been very consistent, but apparently it is confusing to you.
It's simple, PPE helps when worn properly, most people don't wear it properly, and in such cases it offers little to no benefit, or even increased risk/harm.


Which is why I think that they have to be clear and consistent on their public health position. Otherwise people won't understand the message. Which again is my primary complaint with the Government messaging.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> Now Tam has flipped on travel restrictions and closing borders.
> 
> She was clearly wrong in her recommendations.
> I wasn't questioning her before, thinking maybe her expertise and access to better information gave her insight that the general population lacked.
> 
> Looks like she was wrong. I think we have to seriously question if she is the right person for the job.


Once again, hindsight is 20/20. I don't know why people can't seem to understand that all the health professionals were giving their best advice AT the time they were giving it. 

I totally agree that we were too slow to close down travel. But at the time, the SPEED of the spread of this virus was an unknown. It basically went from zero to 100 in a couple of weeks. Now we know that, then we did not.

I do think we could have closed down travel at least one or two weeks earlier. We here were talking about it before the March Break. Allowing people to leave on March Break was perhaps our biggest mistake but Dr. Tam is not the one who made that decision is she. Politicians made the decision and while yes she was giving them input, so were airlines and vacation companies, travel insurance companies, the public's expectations, etc. etc. 

I get annoyed when I see a reporter asking Dr. Tam why Quebec is opening schools and Ontario is keeping them closed for example. Her advice to both provinces is the same, but the decision is up to the Province, not her and yet if you pay attention you will hear Quebec reporters asking her the question pretty rudely as if it were her fault and her decision.

We've seen parents now going back to work complaining they can't find childcare and we've seen parents going back to work saying they don't want to go back to work and have to risk their kids in childcare. You can't win in this kind of situation. You're dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

People always want to blame someone for the past and neither you or I have a high enough profile to be blamed that's all. I trust Dr. Tam's advice ahead of any other person giving advice. I hear her now saying, 'yes, it will help reduce spread if you wear a mask' but at the same time I also hear her saying loud and clear, 'IF IF IF you cannot maintain your distance'. I know what the important part of that message is. Keep your distance before all else.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> Actually you're purposely conflating 2 different points.
> 1. I agree a mask worn by the general public will have little affect diesease spread.
> I've been saying this for weeks.
> 
> 2. A properly handled and work mask can help protect yourself and others.
> I've been saying this for weeks as well.
> Which is also true, if it helps protect yourself and others, it's not a "false sense of security"
> 
> You seem to be very confused on what my science and fact based position is.
> I've been very consistent, but apparently it is confusing to you.
> It's simple, PPE helps when worn properly, most people don't wear it properly, and in such cases it offers little to no benefit, or even increased risk/harm.
> 
> 
> Which is why I think that they have to be clear and consistent on their public health position. Otherwise people won't understand the message. Which again is my primary complaint with the Government messaging.


Read the Mayo link. The ONLY type of mask that provides significant protection to the wearer's mouth and nose is an N95 type mask. They are NOT intended for the general pubic. There is still a shortage of them for healthcare professionals and NO member of the public should be taking up that supply. Are you trying to suggest all the public should be taught the proper way to wear an N95 mask? Where would they all come from?

Nor does even an N95 mask ALONE provide as much protection as maintaining distance does even without any mask at all. I am not conflating two different points, I am saying there is only ONE point being discussed in this thread and it is not how effective is a properly handled N95 mask by a healthcare professional. The subject here is the purpose of a mask of any kind being worn by the PUBLIC.

The false sense of security comes when the public thinks as many DO, that wearing any kind of mask including a home made mask protects the wearer SIGNIFICANTLY. It has them thinking that they don't have to maintain distance IF they were a mask. That it is an ALTERNATIVE and that thinking is WRONG.

We don't need the public to learn how to put on and remove an N95 mask properly, we STILL need them to learn to maintain distance. Every time I look at the news on TV, I see people ignoring distancing. In Toronto I heard this morning, people are looking for (and finding) 'blackmarket' haircuts. That's more important to them than the risk of getting the virus.

People are stupid and people LOOK for a 'way around' all kinds of things every day. Let them even THINK that wearing a mask whether rightly or wrongly put on/off and they will JUMP on that answer as the answer they WANT to hear. Now they are hearing it. 'You can ignore distancing if you wear a mask.' That's what they hear and so that's what they will do.

I do agree they should be clear and consistent with the message but we live in the real world and the pressure being applied on all sides must be tremendous. So someone says, 'well, will wearing a mask hurt?' and the answer of course, is, 'well no, it could reduce spread but it is no replacement for distancing.' That answer is correct but people take the first part and ignore the second part because they WANT to and then say, 'the message wasn't clear.' It was as clear as a window pane to me.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> Read the Mayo link. The ONLY type of mask that provides significant protection to the wearer's mouth and nose is an N95 type mask. They are NOT intended for the general pubic. There is still a shortage of them for healthcare professionals and NO member of the public should be taking up that supply. Are you trying to suggest all the public should be taught the proper way to wear an N95 mask? Where would they all come from?
> 
> Nor does even an N95 mask ALONE provide as much protection as maintaining distance does even without any mask at all. I am not conflating two different points, I am saying there is only ONE point being discussed in this thread and it is not how effective is a properly handled N95 mask by a healthcare professional. The subject here is the purpose of a mask of any kind being worn by the PUBLIC.
> 
> The false sense of security comes when the public thinks as many DO, that wearing any kind of mask including a home made mask protects the wearer SIGNIFICANTLY. It has them thinking that they don't have to maintain distance IF they were a mask. That it is an ALTERNATIVE and that thinking is WRONG.
> 
> We don't need the public to learn how to put on and remove an N95 mask properly, we STILL need them to learn to maintain distance. Every time I look at the news on TV, I see people ignoring distancing. In Toronto I heard this morning, people are looking for (and finding) 'blackmarket' haircuts. That's more important to them than the risk of getting the virus.
> 
> People are stupid and people LOOK for a 'way around' all kinds of things every day. Let them even THINK that wearing a mask whether rightly or wrongly put on/off and they will JUMP on that answer as the answer they WANT to hear. Now they are hearing it. 'You can ignore distancing if you wear a mask.' That's what they hear and so that's what they will do.
> 
> I do agree they should be clear and consistent with the message but we live in the real world and the pressure being applied on all sides must be tremendous. So someone says, 'well, will wearing a mask hurt?' and the answer of course, is, 'well no, it could reduce spread but it is no replacement for distancing.' That answer is correct but people take the first part and ignore the second part because they WANT to and then say, 'the message wasn't clear.' It was as clear as a window pane to me.


Jumping around quite a bit, but I'll comment.
I'm glad you agree masks work.
N95 masks are intended for the general public, if you're doing any woodworking, or drywall you should definately wear one. I have several dozen masks, and other respirators for various types of work.

As far as "will wearing a mask hurt", I disagree.
Used improperly masks can increase your risk of exposure, that's why you should have training in how to wear PPE.


Back to the basics, I don't think widespread mask usage will offer much benefit for the general public.
I think a properly worn and used mask reduces risk and is not necessarily a "false sense of security". It is simply a measure that can somewhat reduce risk. Just like air bags in a car really do reduce risk, they aren't a replacement for seat belts, or a license to drive irresponsibly.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> Jumping around quite a bit, but I'll comment.
> I'm glad you agree masks work.
> N95 masks are intended for the general public, if you're doing any woodworking, or drywall you should definately wear one. I have several dozen masks, and other respirators for various types of work.
> 
> As far as "will wearing a mask hurt", I disagree.
> Used improperly masks can increase your risk of exposure, that's why you should have training in how to wear PPE.
> 
> 
> Back to the basics, I don't think widespread mask usage will offer much benefit for the general public.
> I think a properly worn and used mask reduces risk and is not necessarily a "false sense of security". It is simply a measure that can somewhat reduce risk. Just like air bags in a car really do reduce risk, they aren't a replacement for seat belts, or a license to drive irresponsibly.


Fine MrMatt but none of that contradicts what I said about the general public using any excuse they can find to 'get around' something. Just let them THINK a mask will make them invulnerable and they'll jump all over that thought. That is what is now happening with many people I'm sure.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> As far as "will wearing a mask hurt", I disagree.
> Used improperly masks can increase your risk of exposure, that's why you should have training in how to wear PPE.
> 
> 
> Back to the basics, I don't think widespread mask usage will offer much benefit for the general public.
> I think a properly worn and used mask reduces risk and is not necessarily a "false sense of security". It is simply a measure that can somewhat reduce risk. Just like air bags in a car really do reduce risk, they aren't a replacement for seat belts, or a license to drive irresponsibly.


Shouldn't one of the approaches be to teach people to properly use the mask then? When people read that using masks can increase infection, it makes people question if they should wear masks at all. The key piece of information missing is IF the PPE is used incorrectly, then it increases the risk. The proper use of PPE will reduce spread. To me, part of the approach is to teach people to use PPE correctly and not scare or confuse them in not wearing it at all.

That's like saying driving a car will lead to death. Driving a car the wrong way will lead to higher risk of death. 

It's the same thing with the false sense of security. Masks are about #4 to reducing COVID spread. Used in conjuction with the first 3 safety precautions, it increases protection. No one is saying use it as the first line of defense.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> Shouldn't one of the approaches be to teach people to properly use the mask then?


Yes, that's why so many problems need information or training programs, but people are too busy and don't listen.

Also I think people will be insulted and react negatively to being told they don't know how to wear a mask.
They have to be careful with this, that's actually why I like the "handwashing" with dye and gloves. They spin it as an "interesting" thing.

But again, yes, people should be shown how to wash their hands, how to estimate 6', and how to wear a mask.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> Yes, that's why so many problems need information or training programs, but people are too busy and don't listen.
> 
> Also I think people will be insulted and react negatively to being told they don't know how to wear a mask.
> They have to be careful with this, that's actually why I like the "handwashing" with dye and gloves. They spin it as an "interesting" thing.
> 
> But again, yes, people should be shown how to wash their hands, how to estimate 6', and how to wear a mask.


It has been very interesting on how to get the information out. Before my mother's care home was locked down, they were requiring visitors to take 'hand washing' lessons from the nurses. I was a little insulted, but went along with it. They showed me how to wash using soap and water, the foam hand sanitizer and the gel one. I had to sign a form saying did all three under the supervision of a nurse. I was pretty good at it, but even there I learned a few things. Though initially I thought how silly, I am really glad they did this. I went and made my kids, father, and extended family do the same. 

There are a lot of steps for handwashing and mask wearing. I wish people would just stop arguing on whether they should wear masks or not, and take time to learn how to do it properly.


----------



## agent99

MrMatt said:


> 1. I agree a mask worn by the general public will have little affect diesease spread.
> *I've been saying this for weeks.*
> 
> 2. A properly handled and work mask can help protect yourself and others.
> *I've been saying this for weeks as well.*


Does it really matter what you have been saying? Is use of masks something that you are an expert and trained in. Not picking at you. Same applies to many in the West including those advising us and others posting on forums.

_As I said before_ (  ), go back to post #1 and read what someone who is an expert says. Are those millions of Chinese and Japanese using masks incorrectly. Are Westerners not smart enough to wear them correctly?

All very well to post views on the subject, but realize than no-one here has much first hand knowledge of the subject.


----------



## MrMatt

agent99 said:


> Does it really matter what you have been saying? Is use of masks something that you are an expert and trained in. Not picking at you. Same applies to many in the West including those advising us and others posting on forums.
> 
> _As I said before_ (  ), go back to post #1 and read what someone who is an expert says. Are those millions of Chinese and Japanese using masks incorrectly. Are Westerners not smart enough to wear them correctly?
> 
> All very well to post views on the subject, but realize than no-one here has much first hand knowledge of the subject.


Well in terms of a discussion, reiterating that I've made the point repeatedly over weeks is contextually important.

I'm not an "expert in masks and PPE", but I have been trained in a variety of different PPE, Masks, handling of biological samples, and hazards in a variety of contexts.


I think the use of PPE by untrained people is problematic, and quite honestly, without the cultural or organizational norms on proper PPE use, I don't think the general population will be effective at PPE. 
I some manufacturing plants, they're very good at sizing and putting in earplugs for hearing protection, at other plants they are very bad at it. I don't think PPE is as simple as many people think it is.

Consider handwashing, it's arguably the single biggest innovation in health, yet study after study shows terrible compliance, even in hospitals, by professionals, who really should know better.

If we can't get doctors and nurses to wash their hands, what do you think the chance of getting your average civilian to do so?


I think we should wash our hands, I think masks might be reasonable, but I think our Chief Medical officer has seriously screwed up the messaging on masks.


----------



## Spudd

Earl said:


> I can't find a damn mask for sale anywhere. I'd wear one if I could find one. I ordered some on amazon a month ago but they shipped from china and still haven't arrived.


There are lots available on Etsy.com, look for sellers located in your area to get faster shipping (and read the listing, lots of them are back-ordered but some are shipping quite quickly).


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## james4beach

I agree that hand-washing is critical, is generally not done well enough (not enough compliance) and still ranks #1 in importance.

However given that we now have enough evidence that COVID-19 is spread through the air, when people share the same air space / close to each other, I think masks are a reasonable precaution. It ranks lower than hand washing in importance but I think it's still important.

I'm going to a bicycle shop tomorrow (phoned and schedule a visit) and will be wearing a mask - as usual.


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## james4beach

I know of another source of disposable surgical masks, recently ordered and got a pack. They appear to be of medium quality. If anyone is interested, message me and I'll point you to the web site. Not cheap; runs about $100 after shipping for a pack of 50.

Just FYI, this shipment just came in and I haven't opened and inspected them yet. They are still sealed in plastic so I can't say much about their quality.


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## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I know of another source of disposable surgical masks, recently ordered and got a pack. They appear to be of medium quality. If anyone is interested, message me and I'll point you to the web site. Not cheap; runs about $100 after shipping for a pack of 50.
> 
> Just FYI, this shipment just came in and I haven't opened and inspected them yet. They are still sealed in plastic so I can't say much about their quality.


The local Canadian tire had 5 & 10 packs of surgical style masks for $10-15.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> The local Canadian tire had 5 & 10 packs of surgical style masks for $10-15.


Amazing. Recently?


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> I agree, I think most people agree.
> I'd just like to point out, that in my observations, very very few people are using them properly.
> 
> I've yet to notice a single person make a proper mask adjustment/application/removal in public.
> To be fair, I've only been out a few dozen times, but virtually nobody is doing it right.
> 
> Even with gloves, I've gone to Canadian tire, they're making a show of wiping down the registers and surfaces, but nobody is wiping the PIN pad.
> 
> The big problem with masks & gloves is that they need to be used properly and consistently, or they're at best not helping, more likely they're offering a false sense of security.


What would a proper mask removal or adjustment be. I am asking because I am always trying to see if I can be doing it better. 

The stores I am going to have been wiping the PIN pad, but I still don't trust them, and I have my own wipes for every surface that I have touch.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Government is more dangerous then any virus. If masks really protected us they would be a natural body part on our face.


----------



## agent99

MrMatt said:


> I'm not an "expert in masks and PPE", but I have been trained in a variety of different PPE,


I spent a lifetime in the chemical industry. Sometimes in extremely hazardous processes. We had extensive training in use of personal protection equipment as well as regular updates.

Here we are not talking about an extremely hazardous environment that requires extensive training. We are just talking about improving the safety of the public when going about their everyday lives.

The public are not as dumb as you may think. We are able to learn how to put on a seat belt, brush our teeth, apply sun tan lotion, wash our hands after using toilet, look both ways before crossing a road and a host of other things that add to our safety when out and about. Procedures no less complex than donning a mask in a safe manner and instructions for use are available.




__





COVID-19 mask use: Advice for community settings - Canada.ca


This advice outlines when to wear a mask, what type of mask to choose, how to improve fit and other factors to consider when wearing a mask.




www.canada.ca





Making it sound as though safely wearing a mask is too complex for the average untrained citizen is a bit over the top, IMO.

Avoid if you can, but If you have to shop or be in contact with public, get masks and wear them! Just common sense.


----------



## MrMatt

agent99 said:


> I spent a lifetime in the chemical industry. Sometimes in extremely hazardous processes. We had extensive training and regular updates.
> 
> Here we are not talking about an extremely hazardous situation that requires extensive training. We are just talking about improving the safety of the public when going about their everyday lives.
> 
> The public are not as dumb as you may think. We are able to learn how to put on a seat belt, brush our teeth, apply sun tan lotion, wash our hands after using toilet, look both ways before crossing a road and a host of other things to add to our safety when out and about. Procedures no less complex that donning a mask in a safe manner.
> 
> Making it sound as though safely wearing a mask is too complex for the average untrained citizen is a bit over the top, IMO.
> 
> Avoid if you can, but If you have to shop or be in contact with public, get masks and wear them! Just common sense.


We are able to learn those things.
But many people still don't put on seatbelts.

Lots of people don't floss their teeth, and some dont' brush regularly.
many don't use sunscreen.

The data on handwashing is absymal.








More than half of doctors make this simple, dangerous mistake | MDLinx


Only one-third of doctors clean their hands often enough to adequately prevent infections.




www.mdlinx.com





I'm not saying that people are dumb (they are), but in this case they don't know, and the proper behaviour isn't reinforced.

I never said that it was too complex, I said they don't know how.


For those who are interested, never touch the outside portion where external COVID19 would get "caught".
Don't pull it down and block your mouth, because then IF something was there, your nose would inhale it.

Simple, routinely violated, and you likely won't even notice you're doing it.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> We are able to learn those things.
> But many people still don't put on seatbelts.
> 
> Lots of people don't floss their teeth, and some dont' brush regularly.
> many don't use sunscreen.
> 
> The data on handwashing is absymal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than half of doctors make this simple, dangerous mistake | MDLinx
> 
> 
> Only one-third of doctors clean their hands often enough to adequately prevent infections.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mdlinx.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that people are dumb (they are), but in this case they don't know, and the proper behaviour isn't reinforced.
> 
> I never said that it was too complex, I said they don't know how.
> 
> 
> For those who are interested, never touch the outside portion where external COVID19 would get "caught".
> Don't pull it down and block your mouth, because then IF something was there, your nose would inhale it.
> 
> Simple, routinely violated, and you likely won't even notice you're doing it.



People do wear seatbelts wrong as they are not positioned properly for short people. Is it better that people just don't wear sealtbelts at all.
People don't floss or brush as well as they should, is this better than not brushing at all.
People don't apply enough sunscreen properly either enough, reapplying or the right kinds, is this better protection than no sunscreen
People don't wash their hands long enough or scrub well enough, so should they not even bother.

So someone wearing their mask incorrectly, does that provide more protection than not wearing a mask at all?

Going through your information, it is really not rocket science. I have read a many times. Even my 86 year dad with no access to internet does it right most of the time. I have to remind him not to touch the front, and he may do so on occasion, but because he sometimes doesn't do it exactly, does he have better protection.

As Agent said, young kids in Asian countries are wearing masks, will they always do it right, probably not, are you saying that they are better off not wearing any at all.


----------



## andrewf

:) lonewolf said:


> Government is more dangerous then any virus. If masks really protected us they would be a natural body part on our face.


If cars were a good invention we would have evolved wheels...


----------



## Synergy

Masks have their place but the general public have no idea what they are doing. They pull them on and off numerous time with their potentially contaminated hands. People tend pull them off to itch their nose, etc. One lady I noticed today was wearing a mask to service the public (great) while at the same time took her gloved hands, removed her glasses and started to vigorously rub her eye with potentially contaminated gloves. Some people are covering their mouth only - not comfortable, fogging up glasses etc. People using their dirty cell phone in the grocery store and holding it against their ears while wearing a mask! You can't cure stupid. Everyday I see this stuff. If used appropriately I think they may be able to provide some protection. My concern is that people may be putting themselves at more risk. I'm surprised we don't have a lot more cases. Employees at many of the essential stores not wearing PPE, work side by side other employees and don't seem to distance themselves appropriately from their clients.

Good luck to us all....


----------



## :) lonewolf

Up thread Rusty mentioned copper masks. Copper is used in boat paints to stop algae growth. The paint can cause permanent skin damage if it comes in contact with skin. I had some skin damage scrapping off old paint getting a boat ready to repaint. It is recommended not to swim in water near boats that are painted with copper paint.

Maybe the copper in face masks is safe though I would look into it a bit before I wore a copper mask. If we were talking the black plaque I would be inclined to wear a mask if the science made sense to.

Money with an agenda is bending the science in regards to COVID so using a mask is not practical based on my thinking of what is happening.


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> If cars were a good invention we would have evolved wheels...


 The first rule of life is to stop from dying, 2nd rule of life is to grow & multiply.. The first rule of life must be followed for life to exist on earth . I do not know of any species on earth that grows masks on their faces to stop from dying.


----------



## Eder

Are your water pipes not copper? RIP in that case I guess.


----------



## andrewf

:) lonewolf said:


> The first rule of life is to stop from dying, 2nd rule of life is to grow & multiply.. The first rule of life must be followed for life to exist on earth . I do not know of any species on earth that grows masks on their faces to stop from dying.


In nature, there are many features that function to filter and reject foreign objects, such as nose hairs, mucous, cilia, etc. A mask is impractical and has downsides (harder to breath during exertion). My point about not evolving wheels is that wheels are useful but have not and probably could not evolve. Just because no species evolved paper fibre masks doesn't mean that such masks are not useful. Evolution favours getting genes into the future. The individuals are just instrumental. First rule of life is to replicate. Everything is subordinate to that goal, even survival of the individual.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Are your water pipes not copper? RIP in that case I guess.


Yes most water pipes are copper.
Which is why the copper leach testing for fittings makes little practical sense.


----------



## :) lonewolf

I see people wearing masks while driving alone, which is like wearing a condom while sleeping alone. These people will believe anything TV tells them.


----------



## james4beach

:) lonewolf said:


> I see people wearing masks while driving alone, which is like wearing a condom while sleeping alone. These people will believe anything TV tells them.


Some of them could be delivery drivers who are making frequent stops. My guess is that they are stopping often enough that it's not worth the trouble to handle the mask. Remember that you have to thoroughly clean your hands before touching or re-adjusting a mask... so maybe they just leave it on the whole time.


----------



## agent99

MrMatt said:


> Yes most water pipes are copper.
> Which is why the copper leach testing for fittings makes little practical sense.


As I understand it, copper water pipe develops a protective oxide coating when in use that has limited solubility. Plumbing fittings like taps are usually made of brass. Brass contains copper and zinc that are more easily dissolved. From what I recall, testing of plastic plumbing systems showed similar copper and zinc concentrations to all-copper systems. It was assumed that source was brass fittings. 

Excessive copper in water may be a health problem, but water in plastic pipes like PEX can leach out various chemicals that can also be heath hazards. It's hard to win!

OK, I know - totally off-topic.


----------



## calm

I think that we owe the workers in these business establishments a bit of respect.
We gotta show a bit of Class.
I would be embarassed to show up at any retail outlet without a mask.


----------



## Mukhang pera

agent99 said:


> This is a very interesting interview with George Gao, director-general of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) (PhD from Oxford!)
> 
> Not wearing masks to protect against coronavirus is a ‘big mistake,’ top Chinese scientist says
> 
> Not just about masks, but about how the Chinese handled the epidemic.
> 
> Anyone know where to buy masks - even non surgical ones? Like the ones we see many Asians wearing?
> 
> I do have three N95 masks. One is from 3M. The other two are made in China and called GOLD. The masks are actually designated N95v (I suspect the V may designate the valve that they have) The GOLD package of two cost me $2.99! These are intended for use when painting or doing other work that produces fine particles or droplets. We may use these when we go out, but just wondering if others have found sources of masks, other than home made.
> 
> View attachment 20080
> 
> Sorry - This forum software doesn't have a way to rotate image.


A physician appeared on CTV Vancouver news last night saying the masks with valves (pictured in your post) protect the wearer, but increase danger to others. The valve is designed to work one-way. It allows the wearer to exhale with ease. The filtering occurs with inhale only, to protect the wearer from breathing in bad stuff. 

But what goes out is not filtered or impeded. Indeed, we were told, the valve acts as some kind of venturi tube, increasing the speed of all the nasty moisture and who-knows-what crap and corruption might emanate from the selfish wearer. So those particles with be accelerated toward those nearby innocents. They will be propelled further and faster. 



agent99 said:


> Excessive copper in water may be a health problem, but water in plastic pipes like PEX can leach out various chemicals that can also be heath hazards. It's hard to win!
> OK, I know - totally off-topic.


If I may too indulge on momentary off-topicality.
I grew up in a house in Toronto with lead pipes. Just think of the IQ points forgone. But for that lamentable state of affairs, I might have become a "somebody". Instead, my record here bears silent testament to the appalling effects of lead poisoning.


----------



## :) lonewolf

calm said:


> I think that we owe the workers in these business establishments a bit of respect.
> We gotta show a bit of Class.
> I would be embarassed to show up at any retail outlet without a mask.


 I think we owe those that died for freedom some respect by not wearing masks. Enough of the in your face in your wallet scamdemic


----------



## andrewf

The valve makes sense for industrial applications, not medical.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> The valve makes sense for industrial applications, not medical.


The thing is, if you're breating out through the mask, it offers resistance, which is uncomfortable, and may saturate the mask with moisure, making it hard to breathe, and it might just leak around the mask more.

That's why I buy the valve masks for protection when I'm working.

I agree, from a health standpoint the valves don't protect others


----------



## agent99

The possible problem with the valved masks has been discussed before, even here perhaps.

Having an exit for air as you breathe out is necessary. 

The mask with valve that I have here, has three exits from the valve - one on each side and one at bottom. There is a baffle to prevent flow toward anyone that you may be facing. Not perfect, but as bad as some make out. Especially with normal breathing.

What happens if you don't have a valve? Air still has to leave. If you breath out normally, presumably the air flows through the filter. But if you sneeze or breath out heavily, then perhaps the seal breaks and air escapes around the periphery?

Both types are no doubt better than home made fabric masks that only filter at best, 10% of droplets in breath. But better than nothing.


----------



## alexincash

Wearing any sort of mask (if you can't get your hands on the officially recommended models) can be a good idea.


----------



## calm

Wearing a mask means no more love at first sight.
Wearing a mask means that when I go outside and forget to wear my false teeth, nobody notices.


----------



## james4beach

I went to an airport, then took a 3 hour domestic flight. What's interesting about this is that you are wearing a mask a lot of the time. For example, the mask goes on when at the airport, then through check-in, security, waiting for the flight, on the flight, navigating through the airport, even in the taxi getting out of there.

As a total duration that's something like 7 to 8 hours of mask wearing.

I saw very good mask compliance both in the airports and on the plane. The flight attendents enforce mask usage and remind people to put them on.

I was using a homemade cloth mask, based on a bandanna. I can tell you it was pretty uncomfortable for the first few hours (longer than I ever wore it before) but I did actually start getting used to it.

One trick is that, in the airport, you can find an empty part of the airport, and take your mask off. *The masks are only required when you are in close proximity to other people... you can take it off when there's lots of space.*

On the plane, it was also clear that some people had trouble breathing. I experienced some of that as well; the mask obstructs some breathing, and oxygen is already a bit thin on the plane. There was one older woman who was having a lot of trouble. The Air Canada flight attendant gave her an alterate surgical mask... AC gives these out in packages to each passenger. I did try AC's mask and it was more comfortable than my own.

The other trick I used is loosening the string on my own mask, on the plane. This made breathing a bit easier.

If someone is older or has any breathing trouble, I would NOT recommend flying right now.

Get ready everyone. Flying is really going to suck for a long time. At the end of the day though, the flight was reasonably smooth and comfortable and some of my "breathing difficulty" was very likely fear & anxiety, since the whole situation is a bit scary.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I went to an airport, then took a 3 hour domestic flight. What's interesting about this is that you are wearing a mask a lot of the time. For example, the mask goes on when at the airport, then through check-in, security, waiting for the flight, on the flight, navigating through the airport, even in the taxi getting out of there.
> 
> As a total duration that's something like 7 to 8 hours of mask wearing.
> 
> I saw very good mask compliance both in the airports and on the plane. The flight attendents enforce mask usage and remind people to put them on.
> 
> I was using a homemade cloth mask, based on a bandanna. I can tell you it was pretty uncomfortable for the first few hours (longer than I ever wore it before) but I did actually start getting used to it.
> 
> One trick is that, in the airport, you can find an empty part of the airport, and take your mask off. *The masks are only required when you are in close proximity to other people... you can take it off when there's lots of space.*
> 
> On the plane, it was also clear that some people had trouble breathing. I experienced some of that as well; the mask obstructs some breathing, and oxygen is already a bit thin on the plane. There was one older woman who was having a lot of trouble. The Air Canada flight attendant gave her an alterate surgical mask... AC gives these out in packages to each passenger. I did try AC's mask and it was more comfortable than my own.
> 
> The other trick I used is loosening the string on my own mask, on the plane. This made breathing a bit easier.
> 
> If someone is older or has any breathing trouble, I would NOT recommend flying right now.
> 
> Get ready everyone. Flying is really going to suck for a long time. At the end of the day though, the flight was reasonably smooth and comfortable and some of my "breathing difficulty" was very likely fear & anxiety, since the whole situation is a bit scary.


what % of the plane was occupied?


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> what % of the plane was occupied?


Each row was 6 seats and I counted an average of 3 people a row, so around 50%

I was the only person in my row of 3 seats. There was nobody behind me, but 1 person in front of me. In the configuration AC is doing (all middle seats empty) I'll say that I did feel reasonably safe. It did put my mind at ease, not being cramped.

I trust the airplane HEPA filters and I trust the major Canadian airlines to maintain them properly. With everyone wearing masks (which AC does enforce) I don't see a major risk here. The masks also make everyone shut up, so nobody is talking, which is also good.

Upon arriving at my hotel, I immediately took a decontamination shower, and then slept for an hour for immune system boost.

Fingers crossed that I did not catch COVID-19. Have another flight in a few days.

I saw an elderly woman arrive on the previous flight, in a wheel chair. They had suited her up with everything including a face shield. No question this is not a comfortable way to travel for an elderly person.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> *The masks are only required when you are in close proximity to other people... you can take it off when there's lots of space.*


So the only time you are requred to wear it is when you're on the plane?


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> So the only time you are requred to wear it is when you're on the plane?


That's not the only place. You must wear it in the security lineup, all the way through airport security, in some parts of the gate waiting area, and definitely on the plane. When you're in the security screening you are very close to other people.

The check-in area seemed less packed, and I saw people without masks. There was enough space that you probably did not have to wear a mask in the check-in area.

The waiting area near the plane was uncertain. People usually crowd around the gate, and there, everyone had masks on. So in that seating area, you wear a mask because many other people are around. To get around that I wandered to empty parts of the seating, at other gates that were empty, and took my mask off.

The overall rule (as I understand it) is that if you easily have 2m+ space between other people, no mask needed.

But if people are closer than this, like in the security area, or when boarding the plane, then masks for everyone.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> The overall rule (as I understand it) is that if you easily have 2m+ space between other people, no mask needed.
> 
> But if people are closer than this, like in the security area, or when boarding the plane, then masks for everyone.


Thanks, I wasn't sure how'd they handle the 2m distance issue in areas outside the plane.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Thanks, I wasn't sure how'd they handle the 2m distance issue in areas outside the plane.


Maybe the rule varies by airport? At Winnipeg airport, this is how I understood things.


----------



## Plugging Along

@james4beach Did you wear the reusable masks that you got from Old Navy? I had some questions about them.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> @james4beach Did you wear the reusable masks that you got from Old Navy? I had some questions about them.


I haven't received them yet.


----------



## Money172375

Forgot to mention here. Staples online has 10 masks for $40. Double layer. $45 for triple layer. Ordered some and got them in a week. 









Face Masks & Face Shields


Shop kids and adult face masks and face shields at Staples Canada. Shop disposable, filter, and fabric face masks, and more.




www.staples.ca


----------



## calm

:) lonewolf said:


> I think we owe those that died for freedom some respect by not wearing masks. Enough of the in your face in your wallet scamdemic


No Shirt - No Shoes - No Mask
Be sure to wear a seat belt as you drive over.
And don't smoke in a public place either
It was not long ago people were not allowed to wear a mask,





Anti-mask law - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## :) lonewolf

calm said:


> No Shirt - No Shoes - No Mask
> Be sure to wear a seat belt as you drive over.
> And don't smoke in a public place either
> It was not long ago people were not allowed to wear a mask,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-mask law - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


 Franklin once said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." 
Anyone that thinks they are protecting others by wearing a mask is actually risking Liberty to all. 

Why wear a mask when you can breath fresh air ? Stay in doors wear a mask makes no sense to staying healthy.


----------



## andrewf

:) lonewolf said:


> Franklin once said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
> Anyone that thinks they are protecting others by wearing a mask is actually risking Liberty to all.
> 
> Why wear a mask when you can breath fresh air ? Stay in doors wear a mask makes no sense to staying healthy.


So, you would have no issue volunteering to help COVID patients in the hospital, sans mask?

And I guess you'll also think doctors are being silly by wearing PPE while performing surgery, etc.


----------



## Plugging Along

My work had provided reusable masks for all of us. They are not the ones I would have chosen (not filter pocket or nose wire) but they are very good fabric. I have been keeping an eye It for masks on the market as they are starting to be commercial produced (still not medical). I have found that many stores are now carrying the disposable. Costco had some the other day. I did find them thicker than the ones I have seen in other little shops. I finding there is such a range in quality out there. Just curious what people are noticing in the mask front. Any better ones? 


I know masks are to protect those around them, but now evidence is emerging that the wearer has some protection (this always made sense to me, but many thought mask were just one way). I have found one Japanese store that has them certified by the government (hi have to confirm which government) but these look very promising. They also have the childrens sizes which are not very common. I plan to have my kids return to school with masks even though I know it will only be a recommendation. I can’t see the school board providing them due to budget cuts, but I am seriously considering providing them for the class if I can source them.


----------



## andrewf

What do you think compliance will be like for kids to wear masks all day?


----------



## Plugging Along

andrewf said:


> What do you think compliance will be like for kids to wear masks all day?


It's a great question with many variable. In other countries, kids wearing I masks is just the norm and there is no problems with compliance. In Canada, it will be definitely varied. I believe it is possible for compliance and proper wearing to be learned, but it needs to be reinforced.

Little kids are so random, I won't even begin there. 
Older kids will eventually do it if it's been taught properly and reinforced. Also, if the measure are easy then it works better.

For kids to wear masks at school a lot of things need to be taken in consideration:

Kids/families need to have the masks. Some families cannot afford masks, some will not make the effort to get them. That's why I am considering buying/making enough masks that the teacher can hand them out in the classroom. Also, there will be kids that forget their masks, again, masks need to be available. For reusable masks, they need to be washed. They may not be washed often enough, or forgotten at home.
Wearing the masks, I see so many adults that don't wear them correctly. Teaching the kids to put them on properly, not touching them, and washing their hands can be a challenge.
Keeping them on all day. Masks will get moist, which loses their effectiveness, so multiple masks need to be required. Also, not all school activities can be performed with a mask. I wonder how some plays an instrument with a mask.
There some kids with breathing issues, and sensory challenges that should not wear a mask. Of course they should be exempt, which is why it's important that others do take the precautions.
I do see there are challenges with school mask wearing. However, I have always been a firm believer that some action is better than none at all. Even if every family doesn't comply, the more they do, the safer those around them are. I don't know if the school will even agree to my suggestion but I plan to do whatever I can to help.

On a side note, I am a leader for my kids guiding activities. When we are allowed back, I plan to make it mandatory for all the kids to wear masks. I will personally provide each child that needs one, and it will be a requirement for them to show up with the mask, buy one, or borrow one. We plan to have a craft night where they will sew their own masks, and another night for safety. I also have been getting supplies so each child can have a 'kit' they can use. 

Because I am in contact with high risk people, I have drilled it into their heads on what safety measure they are expected. They each have a kit that has two masks sealed in a baggie, filter, gloves, paper bag (to put the used mask), hand sanitizer, Lysol wipes and spray), plastic bag (for the garbage). They take this little kit with them every time they leave the house. They know to put the used masks in the paper bag which gets washed when they are home, gloves and wipes go into the plastic bag and thrown in the outside garbage, and all items get checked and replenished each time they go out. It was a little bit of a battle at first and a lot of reinforcement, but now, if I say we need to go out, they check and grab their kit. 

I didn't clearly answer you question on what compliance will be. Honestly, I don't think it will be great overall because people just don't bother or care. However, I am a pretty persausive, and I believe that in the areas that my kids are involved, their will be much higher compliance.


----------



## calm

On April 30th, I ordered some masks on line.

I wanted a mask which I could wash and could also change the "filter" cloth more easily.
I got my niece to crocket me a mask and I ordered 10 Meters 3mm Round Earloop Elastics For Fabric Masks




__





READY TO SHIP 3mm 1/8 X 10 Meters Round Earloop | Etsy Canada


Canada Post XpressPost Upgrade Available at Checkout !!! The 3mm and 5mm have Matte Satin finishes. The 4mm has a towel finish. 3mm x1000cm White Earloops for Fabric Masks. Each order is 10 meters (usually good for more than 20 masks). !!! Handpicked by a mask maker - I have tested 6




www.etsy.com





I ordered one face mask (Canada + Maple Leaf)
Item Purchased : April 30, 2020 and my VISA was charged $29.00 and 2 months later not even delivered yet.
I thought when I ordered it was going to be shipped from Vancover. Only after VISA paid, e-Mail me and tell me it was being "Mailed" (snail delivery) from China




__





This item is unavailable | Etsy


Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewellery, and more… lots more.




www.etsy.com





April 30th, I ordered 3 masks from the NHL. (Toronto Maple Leafs)
Adult Toronto Maple Leafs FOCO - Face Covering 3-Pack 56.48
Just after I ordered, I got an e-Mail advising delivery was June 30th. (2 month delay delivery)
Still waiting.








Adult Toronto Maple Leafs FOCO - Face Covering 3-Pack







www.nhlshop.ca


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> So, you would have no issue volunteering to help COVID patients in the hospital, sans mask?
> 
> And I guess you'll also think doctors are being silly by wearing PPE while performing surgery, etc.


No one dies of a heart attack anymore its all COVID. The numbers are way over blown. Flu is more deadly then COVID. Doctors are smart enough not to wear a mask when not performing surgery Wearing a mask 24/7 is just not healthy. Someone fears over BS should not effect what others do. If masks are so protective they should protect the user from those not wearing a mask. The world has gone completely mental.

With contract tracing hospitals should be avoided when possible.


----------



## andrewf

:) lonewolf said:


> No one dies of a heart attack anymore its all COVID. The numbers are way over blown. Flu is more deadly then COVID. Doctors are smart enough not to wear a mask when not performing surgery Wearing a mask 24/7 is just not healthy. Someone fears over BS should not effect what others do. If masks are so protective they should protect the user from those not wearing a mask. The world has gone completely mental.
> 
> With contract tracing hospitals should be avoided when possible.


So you don't have the courage of your convictions. Got it.


----------



## andrewf

Plugging: I think compliance would be better if all the kids are wearing masks. I just don't see that being the reality unless it is required. And hopefully it is not really required at all or for more than a few months come Sept. I know Taiwan seems to have good success having kids use masks in school, but they were pretty ruthless about enforcing it.

I just think of some of the young kids I have seen washing their hands. They seem to have no concept of how to wash their hands, and too little dexterity to do it well. Inevitably an adult either has to say 'good enough' or swoop in and wash their hands for them. Otherwise it just seems to consist of a bit of half-hearted smooshing of soap between hands. I can't help but wonder if that is reflective of how they would use a mask as well.


----------



## calm

I bought 12 bottles of after shave lotion and use that (alcohol) to rinse my hands.
No need to squish around my hands and fingers using some kind of paste.
t sure hope the virus is not attracted by the nice smell.

I think kids just love to copycat their parents and would wear any mask with pride.
Try and find somebody with a sewing machine and make a personal mask or one with a dinosoar on it. Maybe even a Batman.

I think that we are going to be facing this virus threat for at least a year and perhaps 2 years.


----------



## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> Plugging: I think compliance would be better if all the kids are wearing masks. I just don't see that being the reality unless it is required. And hopefully it is not really required at all or for more than a few months come Sept. I know Taiwan seems to have good success having kids use masks in school, but they were pretty ruthless about enforcing it.
> 
> I just think of some of the young kids I have seen washing their hands. They seem to have no concept of how to wash their hands, and too little dexterity to do it well. Inevitably an adult either has to say 'good enough' or swoop in and wash their hands for them. Otherwise it just seems to consist of a bit of half-hearted smooshing of soap between hands. I can't help but wonder if that is reflective of how they would use a mask as well.


The issue would be wearing masks effectively. As already mentioned, once they get moist, protection is reduced significantly. And then there is the fun time of lunch. So maybe pack 2 masks and change after lunch? The other issue is that to put the mask on, you should be doing that with sterile hands... which can be difficult for kids.


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> The issue would be wearing masks effectively. As already mentioned, once they get moist, protection is reduced significantly. And then there is the fun time of lunch. So maybe pack 2 masks and change after lunch? The other issue is that to put the mask on, you should be doing that with sterile hands... which can be difficult for kids.


I can share the approach I used when flying recently. From the moment I leave the house, there are many hours of travel and mask usage, so I had to come up with some strategy.

In my backpack, I carry one ziplock bag marked "dirty masks" and one marked "clean masks" which contained two disposable surgical masks. These were the spare/backups.

The day started with a reusable, washable mask when I left out the door. A mask can get soiled, or even fall off. If I had to change the mask, I would place it into the "dirty masks" ziplock and then replace with one of the "clean masks".

I've now flown twice during COVID, and it turned out that the 100% cotton cloth masks did quite well for the entire journey, so I did not have to switch to any of my backups. These masks were not so great at "staying up", and I had to occasionally tilt my head down to reposition them (hands-free) but the 100% cotton cloth was very comfortable, quite breathable and was in pretty good shape even after 6 to 7 hours of wearing.

I will continue to carry the disposable surgical masks as backups. They pack very nicely, because they are flat, so they go well into a ziplock bag. But they aren't my favourite to wear.

We are going to have to get used to this -- might as well start practicing.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I can share the approach I used when flying recently. From the moment I leave the house, there are many hours of travel and mask usage, so I had to come up with some strategy.


You're in a different league than I am James. 

Myself, I have to shop once a week and also make a few hardware store visits. I have a proper 3M N95 mask that I feel is quite effective, and I sterilize it in the oven with a standard procedure at home after each foray into the world. They claim I can sterilize it at least 50 times, so I can reuse that mask for a really long time. I admit it's a bit of a pain in the butt to use longer than about an hour since it's hard to breath and my glasses fog up. But, I feel it's very effective.

I also have a 50 quantity box of the best blue standard masks from Walmart that everyone else seems to use.

It's amazing how easy it is to breath using the standard blue masks compared to an N95 mask. Night and day. It makes me think that the blue masks are not really that effective compared to a proper N95 mask. 

What do you think?

ltr


----------



## bgc_fan

like_to_retire said:


> It's amazing how easy it is to breath using the standard blue masks compared to an N95 mask. Night and day. It makes me think that the blue masks are not really that effective compared to a proper N95 mask.


Yes, that's the case. The blue surgical masks allow a lot of gap on the side of the face so air flow is easier, and protection is obviously compromised. So while it offers some protection for direct liquid transfer, it's not as effective of N95 mask which has a one way valve.

To some degree, the cloth masks aren't that protective; however, they do reduce the likelihood of liquid transfer.


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> It's amazing how easy it is to breath using the standard blue masks compared to an N95 mask. Night and day. It makes me think that the blue masks are not really that effective compared to a proper N95 mask.


I agree. I also found breathing was 'too easy' with the blue surgical masks. There are big gaps on the sides. But, they are very convenient.

My multi-layer cloth masks made from bandannas, the ones I first started wearing, have great coverage over the nose & mouth. Many layers with a tight fit. And yes, breathing is difficult with them.

I'm pretty sure my multi layered cloth masks offered better protection than the blue surgical masks.

If another major infection wave happens a few months from now, I'll probably start wearing my first method (layered bandanna) again, even though it's hard to breathe.

My perspective is that the masks are first and foremost about stopping liquid droplets. I think the surgical masks can do this too, but their coverage is slightly compromised due to the loose sides.


----------



## Plugging Along

andrewf said:


> Plugging: I think compliance would be better if all the kids are wearing masks. I just don't see that being the reality unless it is required. And hopefully it is not really required at all or for more than a few months come Sept. I know Taiwan seems to have good success having kids use masks in school, but they were pretty ruthless about enforcing it.
> 
> I just think of some of the young kids I have seen washing their hands. They seem to have no concept of how to wash their hands, and too little dexterity to do it well. Inevitably an adult either has to say 'good enough' or swoop in and wash their hands for them. Otherwise it just seems to consist of a bit of half-hearted smooshing of soap between hands. I can't help but wonder if that is reflective of how they would use a mask as well.


I don’t see the school boards making masks mandatory if the province doesn’t. I also hope there won’t be a need. However, even if there is a need if it’s not mandatory, then influencing others is the best we can do. The more people that wear masks the safer it is. 
Even safer if people wear them properly. 

I agree about hand washing too that people not just kids don’t do it properly. However, at least most people don’t argue that handwashing is good and doesn’t go against their freedoms. 

Years ago, people did not understand how hand-washing reduces spread of germs. I thought also understood the same about masks but I am guessing it’s acceptance. 

At school, my kids will wear masks if necessary. They will also ask their friends around them to do so. They will explain there are high risk people in their family and hope they understand. They will have extra masks if one is not available. I think part of the mask argument is it’s just something people here don’t do. When they see more and more people wearing them, it doesn’t become a big deal. Just like seatbelts and bike helmets. 

At our house, we ask anyone who wants to visit that we do it outside and people have masks available or we will supply one. We provide hand sanitizer and disinfectants at the door in case a guest needs to go to the washroom. We explain why we are extra cautious, and everyone complies. 

My kids don’t like wearing masks at all but understand we do to respect those around us and it’s important to do our part. Kids just need to be taught.


----------



## james4beach

People can get used to anything... especially kids. If wearing masks becomes the norm, kids will learn and can get used to it.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I agree. I also found breathing was 'too easy' with the blue surgical masks. There are big gaps on the sides. But, they are very convenient.
> 
> My multi-layer cloth masks made from bandannas, the ones I first started wearing, have great coverage over the nose & mouth. Many layers with a tight fit. And yes, breathing is difficult with them.
> 
> I'm pretty sure my multi layered cloth masks offered better protection than the blue surgical masks.
> 
> If another major infection wave happens a few months from now, I'll probably start wearing my first method (layered bandanna) again, even though it's hard to breathe.
> 
> My perspective is that the masks are first and foremost about stopping liquid droplets. I think the surgical masks can do this too, but their coverage is slightly compromised due to the loose sides.


During the earlier days when the blue masks were barely available to medical staff, I know doctors that were having custom made masks that covered the surgical masks so they would last longer. It wasn’t allowed in the hospitals or day surgeries because they needed to be changed between every patient, but in practices where they do not need to change between patients, it was very helpful. 

I have found PM2.5 filters are much breathable than the shop towels I had. Like everything else, you get used to it.


----------



## james4beach

I think it's really interesting when people suddenly deal with a new problem.

We have a pathogen we don't completely understand. There are major issues of availability of materials, comfort, etc. So we all take a stab at it from various angles. We try different things, test it out, refine and adapt.

I'm still waiting to receive my Old Navy mask order. I don't have high hopes from them, but curious to see what they're like.


----------



## Plugging Along

bgc_fan said:


> The issue would be wearing masks effectively. As already mentioned, once they get moist, protection is reduced significantly. And then there is the fun time of lunch. So maybe pack 2 masks and change after lunch? The other issue is that to put the mask on, you should be doing that with sterile hands... which can be difficult for kids.


I find 3 hours is able the max time I would want to wear a single mask. I had to push it to 4 once and hated it. For a full day at work (or school) would look something like this - 
-Mask 1 put on mask just before entering the building (or bus in my kids case). 

Mask 2 recess or am break. Wash hands, and switch masks
Mask 3 wash hands for lunch, take off mask for lunch, wash hands again to put on new
mask For remainder of day

Someone could wear the same mask and let it air out for periods of time and use only one or two masks in the day. I am planning for 3 a day with one extra just in case. Sterile hands is not difficult if the kids are taught to wash their hands and have a place to wash.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I think it's really interesting when people suddenly deal with a new problem.
> 
> We have a pathogen we don't completely understand. There are major issues of availability of materials, comfort, etc. So we all take a stab at it from various angles. We try different things, test it out, refine and adapt.
> 
> I'm still waiting to receive my Old Navy mask order. I don't have high hopes from them, but curious to see what they're like.


I had someone else who received their old navy mask give me a review. They don’t have the pocket nor nose wire, but are reasonably thick and decently made, so not a totally fail considering the price.
.
To me this whole mask thing has just been a part of the scientific process. I have been trying to procure, make and research masks since January. We have so many different masks and materials at our house that we have different designs for different purposes. I know a couple really good sewers and I have them make masks for me to my specifications but they have so much demand right now. I am now wanting masks that are fun and go with different outfits.


----------



## Longtimeago

I keep seeing people talking about 'protection' in a way that indicates they think they are protecting themselves. A mask is worn to protect OTHERS from you. They provide you with very little decreased risk of catching the virus if you are interacting with people.

Even when reading what would seem to be reliable information on the subject, it can be confusing seemingly even for the writers. This article does primarily tell you that a mask is worn to protect others but in a few places the use of words does make it a bit ambiguous. The key thing to realize is a mask is intended to prevent TRANSMISSION, not prevent you becoming infected by others.









Does Wearing a Mask Prevent the Flu?


Learn when masks can help and what other hygiene measures to take for prevention.




www.healthline.com





Consider this, a doctor or nurse in a surgical theatre does not thoroughly scrub their hands and don a mask to protect themselves. They do so to protect the patient and it is a 'surgical mask' they use, not an N95 respirator type of mask. An N95 respirator type of mask protects others from you but also protects the wearer from AIRBORNE viruses. Covid-19 though is not an airborne virus it is a DROPLET spread virus. So as protection against Covid-19 for the wearer, it is in fact not really any better than any other kind of mask including a homemade option.

Washing your hands is an entirely different story. That is done primarily to protect yourself from any virus you may have picked up on your hands from touching things or from someone sneezing near you. The risk is you will transfer it from your hands to your eyes, nose or mouth if you touch your face. Once you have washed your hands you eliminate that possibility and also eliminate the possibility of passing it on to others by touching things.

But a mask does NOT offer you any real increase in your personal protection from Covid-19. If you think about it, what probably makes more sense if you want to try and protect yourself from catching the virus, is a face shield.








Coronavirus COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2): The Latest News, Updates and Information


See the latest news, updates, and information on the Coronavirus COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) outbreak. Learn about symptoms, prevention, face masks, vaccines, Delta and Omicron variants, possible treatments, quarantine, isolation, social distancing, self-isolation and more.




www.medicinenet.com













Could face shields replace masks in preventing COVID-19?


(HealthDay)—Face masks help prevent the spread of COVID-19, but some people find them awkward, uncomfortable or downright unbearable to wear.




medicalxpress.com





A face sheild does far more to protect the wearer but less to protect others. That's why you see hospital personnel wearing both. The mask to protect others and the shield to increase their own protection.


----------



## james4beach

Funny that you talk about masks for different outfits. This isn't a crazy idea.

I've already identified one mask that looks pretty sharp (solid dark blue) and that would be appropriate for business. So there's my business mask.

Thanks for the notes about the Old Navy masks.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> Funny that you talk about masks for different outfits. This isn't a crazy idea.
> 
> I've already identified one mask that looks pretty sharp (solid dark blue) and that would be appropriate for business. So there's my business mask.
> 
> Thanks for the notes about the Old Navy masks.


haven’t received my old navy masks either. Got a notification from UPS stating that a shipping label had been created June 1 but no activity since.

try Staples...they have packs of ten reusable for $40. I’m happy with them. Although my kids say they look like tighty-whiteys. Got delivered in a week.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Funny that you talk about masks for different outfits. This isn't a crazy idea.
> 
> I've already identified one mask that looks pretty sharp (solid dark blue) and that would be appropriate for business. So there's my business mask.
> 
> Thanks for the notes about the Old Navy masks.


I think masks may become a new assessory. Many work out wear companies and clothing companies have started add pin matching masks . There was an evening gown line I saw the other day. .the challenging part is finding masks that meet all my requirements. Function first.

I have found a person that will make custom masks for me to my specifications but I a,not sure if I want to spend the premium on them. I am considering it for my kids so they think it’s more fun and will wear them more willingly.


----------



## calm

I have a zip lock bag clipped into the inside lining of my jacket.
It contains a disposable maisk and gloves. And now with the onset of summer, my sunglasses.
I have no intention of owning sophisticated germ proof masks. Just too expensive and at 72 years of age, I just don't want to live in a world with that amount paranoia. In fact, if they ever prove that herd immunity is genuine, I would immediately head out and breathe the contaminated air to the very bottom of my lungs. Living with the virus threat for the next 72 years is just not worth it,

.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Watch: Air Quality Device Proves Masks Unsafe For Work


Oxygen deprivation levels from mask-wearing violates OSHA standards




www.infowars.com


----------



## Eder

Well masks are wonderful for those that want to use them...we have near eliminated Covid in BC but that was achieved by social distancing & hand washing.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Eder said:


> we have near eliminated Covid in BC but that was achieved by social distancing & hand washing.


 Really or was it simply time based on the cycles of the virus. In 2018 there was no push for social distancing & hand washing yet the numbers were lower.

Though the numbers can not be trusted


----------



## Plugging Along

I am in BC in small towns right now, and I can say the social distancing is AWFUL. We tried to support places where the workers and place had good safety measures such as hand sanitizer at the front, employees wearing mask, disinfecting of areas, and social distancing practices. We sat at one restaurant and they tried to put us right beside another table, we asked for another table, they said couldn’t do it, so we left. We went into the restaurant beside them. 

There is evidence now coming out that populations that have mask wearing has lower spread rates.


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> Well masks are wonderful for those that want to use them...we have near eliminated Covid in BC but that was achieved by social distancing & hand washing.


In Eastern Ontario, where we live, we had one of best records in Ontario. Only 62 cases and zero deaths up until last week (only 2 in previous 2 months). Once things opened up, things changed. We have had another 18 cases in last 4 days. Many from a nail salon, but those spread fast to a golf course, a restaurant, a construction site, a hospital etc. As of yesterday, 700 potential carriers. Long line-ups for testing. About 4 or 5 business that had just opened have closed.








Status of Cases in KFL&A







www.kflaph.ca





As a result, a new law was immediately implemented in the Kingston, Frontenac, Lennox & Addington health area. Everyone working or entering a public or commercial establishment MUST wear a face covering. Establishments must provide sanitizers at entry and exits and meet more stringent rules for distancing etc.

Don't rest on your laurels. Things can change FAST. Keep safe and wear a mask at least when distancing is not possible, but preferably whenever in public.


----------



## sags

That is a shame about the Kingston outbreak. The nail salon was breaking all the rules and didn't even keep track of the customers that had gone there.

I fear for my wife as the retirement home allows the residence to leave for up to 12 hours and come back. That is just plain stupid.


----------



## :) lonewolf

agent99 said:


> In Eastern Ontario, where we live, we had one of best records in Ontario. Only 62 cases and zero deaths up until last week (only 2 in previous 2 months). Once things opened up, things changed. We have had another 18 cases in last 4 days. Many from a nail salon, but those spread fast to a golf course, a restaurant, a construction site, a hospital etc. As of yesterday, 700 potential carriers. Long line-ups for testing. About 4 or 5 business that had just opened have closed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Status of Cases in KFL&A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kflaph.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a result, a new law was immediately implemented in the Kingston, Frontenac, Lennox & Addington health area. Everyone working or entering a public or commercial establishment MUST wear a face covering. Establishments must provide sanitizers at entry and exits and meet more stringent rules for distancing etc.
> 
> Don't rest on your laurels. Things can change FAST. Keep safe and wear a mask at least when distancing is not possible, but preferably whenever in public.
> [/QUOT


The power tripping will catch up to them. They are as dumb as senator Tim Carpenter the mob turned on him & almost killed him. As the economy turns down as the masses lose everything they lose it. Those that take peoples freedom & liberty away are not going to fair well.


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> I fear for my wife as the retirement home allows the residence to leave for up to 12 hours and come back. That is just plain stupid.


 The US quarantined the healthy & seeded the nursing homes with Covid.


----------



## james4beach

Here in downtown Vancouver, I am seeing a sharp decline in mask compliance over the last few weeks.

Suddenly there are big groups of people crowding into stores, no masks. I was about to get some ice cream earlier today and decided against it. Peeking into the store, I saw at least 7 people closely spaced, NO masks.

Basically everyone is forgetting everything, immediately. I expect COVID-19 to come back pretty strongly.

Apparently only about 1/3 of transit riders are wearing masks, and public transit usage is way up.

At the grocery store, it looks like about half the people wear masks. I'm happy to see that.

It's worst among younger people. I see many people around here in their 20s (by the looks of it) with no masks. In fact I think I hardly see any younger person wearing a mask. So selfish. Just because they are invincible, they aren't protecting others.


----------



## :) lonewolf

james4beach said:


> It's worst among younger people. I see many people around here in their 20s (by the looks of it) with no masks. In fact I think I hardly see any younger person wearing a mask. So selfish. Just because they are invincible, they aren't protecting others.


 The selfish are those that want to take the freedom & liberty away from others due to their fears over the scamdemic /plandemic.

Those that give up liberty for a bit of safety deserve neither liberty or safety.

The climate change & the socialists have joined forces. Once the economy is destroyed the socialists will turn on Bill Gates & climate change activists


----------



## james4beach

:) lonewolf said:


> The selfish are those that want to take the freedom & liberty away from others due to their fears over the scamdemic /plandemic.
> 
> Those that give up liberty for a bit of safety deserve neither liberty or safety.


That's ridiculous. We (society) deny people the liberty to do certain things that we (society) have decided are dangerous. You give up liberty in exchange for safety. By choosing to live in Canada, you give up many liberties for safety.

You can't drive your car at any speed you want;
You can't get smashed on whiskey and drive around town;
You can't punch or knife people who irritate you;
You can't set your neighbour's house on fire if he's rude to you;
etc



:) lonewolf said:


> The climate change & the socialists have joined forces. Once the economy is destroyed the socialists will turn on Bill Gates & climate change activists


???


----------



## :) lonewolf

__





Armstrong Economics







www.armstrongeconomics.com






james4beach said:


> That's ridiculous. We (society) deny people the liberty to do certain things that we (society) have decided are dangerous. You give up liberty in exchange for safety. By choosing to live in Canada, you give up many liberties for safety.
> 
> You can't drive your car at any speed you want;
> You can't get smashed on whiskey and drive around town;
> You can't punch or knife people who irritate you;
> You can't set your neighbour's house on fire if he's rude to you;
> etc
> 
> 
> 
> ???


Bill Gates – The Agenda | Armstrong Economics


----------



## Longtimeago

:) lonewolf said:


> The US quarantined the healthy & seeded the nursing homes with Covid.


That is simply outright conspiracy theory spreading and it is as LIE. You are a LIAR lonewolf.


----------



## andrewf

:) lonewolf said:


> The selfish are those that want to take the freedom & liberty away from others due to their fears over the scamdemic /plandemic.
> 
> Those that give up liberty for a bit of safety deserve neither liberty or safety.
> 
> The climate change & the socialists have joined forces. Once the economy is destroyed the socialists will turn on Bill Gates & climate change activists


Yeah. Just like giving up the freedom to drive drunk.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Stay locked up in your homes over a cold is insanity.


----------



## andrewf

The kind of cold that lands people in the hospital gasping for air for 3 weeks.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Grow up its only a cold.


----------



## andrewf

I think you need to grow up and stop believing crazies on the internet.


----------



## calm

I think guys will need to buy a compact so they can check if the mask is on correctly.








Compact (cosmetics) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## :) lonewolf

financialsurvivalnetwork.com/2020/06/the-great-american-mask-hoax-with-dr-ted-noel/


----------



## andrewf

Sounds like many prominent conservatives are defecting from the insane 'masks are bad' position (how they politicized PPE is beyond me).

FOX News supports wearing of masks








'Fox & Friends' host Steve Doocy urges Trump to wear mask to 'look as if he's taking it seriously'


Steve Doocy said he saw "no downside" to Trump wearing a mask and joked, "MAGA should now stand for Masks Are Great Again."



www.usatoday.com





Mitch McConnell supports wearing masks








Mitch McConnell: 'We must have no stigma' about wearing masks in public


Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell argued there should be no stigma about wearing a face mask amid the coronavirus pandemic, as President Donald Trump continues to be resistant to wearing one in public.




www.cnn.com





Don Jr supports wearing masks








Donald Trump Jr. says it's not "too complicated" to wear masks as precaution


The president's son made the remarks during an interview with Fox Business, suggesting that people should wear face coverings during the Republican National Convention in August.




www.newsweek.com


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Sounds like many prominent conservatives are defecting from the insane 'masks are bad' position (how they politicized PPE is beyond me).
> 
> FOX News supports wearing of masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Fox & Friends' host Steve Doocy urges Trump to wear mask to 'look as if he's taking it seriously'
> 
> 
> Steve Doocy said he saw "no downside" to Trump wearing a mask and joked, "MAGA should now stand for Masks Are Great Again."
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitch McConnell supports wearing masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitch McConnell: 'We must have no stigma' about wearing masks in public
> 
> 
> Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell argued there should be no stigma about wearing a face mask amid the coronavirus pandemic, as President Donald Trump continues to be resistant to wearing one in public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don Jr supports wearing masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump Jr. says it's not "too complicated" to wear masks as precaution
> 
> 
> The president's son made the remarks during an interview with Fox Business, suggesting that people should wear face coverings during the Republican National Convention in August.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsweek.com


I don't think anyone said "masks are bad"

The closest I'm aware of is statements is stuff like this.





There is of course the argument that masks are not appropriate in certain settings or certain ages. That's absolutely true and valid. 

But bad? I don't recall a widespread "masks are bad" statement.


----------



## :) lonewolf

MrMatt said:


> I don't think anyone said "masks are bad"
> 
> The closest I'm aware of is statements is stuff like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is of course the argument that masks are not appropriate in certain settings or certain ages. That's absolutely true and valid.
> 
> But bad? I don't recall a widespread "masks are bad" statement.


Masks effect air quality i.e., not enough oxygen even when just sitting # 288 up thread, The added stress of wearing a mask during a heat wave & movement would probably cause more deaths then Covid.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> That is simply outright conspiracy theory spreading and it is as LIE. You are a LIAR lonewolf.


financialsurvivalnetwork.com2020/05/michigan-gretchen-whitmer-seeds-the-nursing-homes-with-covid-19/

Above link regarding seeding nursing homes with Covid never took. The info can be found on financial survival network by Monica Showalter American thinker posted it


----------



## andrewf

Trump has refused to be photographed wearing a mask. Many conservatives criticized Biden for wearing a mask on memorial day.

Lots of Karens insisting on not wearing a mask as a political statement.

I do criticize Tam and the Surgeon General of the US for downplaying masks early on. I think they were lying to the public out of fear of causing PPE shortages for front-line workers. I think this is shameful. They should have leveled with the public and said that cloth masks are likely to be nearly as effective for light exposure risk situations the public might face and to leave disposable PPE for medical workers.


----------



## ian

I wear a mask when I go the the store. Don't understand what the big issue is. It is hardly an infringement on my freedom nor is it a real bother

I look on the bright side. At least I am not lying on an ICU hospitial bed with a ventilator attached to me like my cousin was for several weeks. Nor have we lost any relatives or friends to the virus.

I do not wish this on anyone else. So really , how difficult is it to do one's small bit by following the distancing guidelines and wearing masks in public. It isn't rocket science...or is it for some?


----------



## Longtimeago

:) lonewolf said:


> financialsurvivalnetwork.com2020/05/michigan-gretchen-whitmer-seeds-the-nursing-homes-with-covid-19/
> 
> Above link regarding seeding nursing homes with Covid never took. The info can be found on financial survival network by Monica Showalter American thinker posted it


First, your link doesn't work. Second, Monica Showalter is simply a writer with an OPINION. I'm a writer with an opinion also. My opinion differs from her opinion and I'd say that makes it 1-1 unless you have some actual EVIDENCE that supports her opinion over mine.

Here is something that will probably appeal to you and take your mind off finding Covid conspiracy garbage.









The flat-Earth conspiracy is spreading around the globe. Does it hide a darker core?


"I don't want to be a flat Earther," David Weiss says, his voice weary as he reflects on his personal awakening. "Would you wake up in the morning and want everyone to think you're an idiot?"




www.cnn.com


----------



## james4beach

I think wearing a mask is an act of respect for everyone around you. It's not a lot of work, and masks are now readily available.

By going into a store with a mask, I'm showing consideration and respect for the people around me -- especially the workers who have to breathe around all these customers.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> First, your link doesn't work. Second, Monica Showalter is simply a writer with an OPINION. I'm a writer with an opinion also. My opinion differs from her opinion and I'd say that makes it 1-1 unless you have some actual EVIDENCE that supports her opinion over mine.
> 
> Here is something that will probably appeal to you and take your mind off finding Covid conspiracy garbage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The flat-Earth conspiracy is spreading around the globe. Does it hide a darker core?
> 
> 
> "I don't want to be a flat Earther," David Weiss says, his voice weary as he reflects on his personal awakening. "Would you wake up in the morning and want everyone to think you're an idiot?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Cuomo doubles down on ordering nursing homes to admit coronavirus patients

Here is a link for another governor causing deaths. Anyone that does some research will find there are a number of different sources regarding seeding the nursing homes with Covid.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Trump has refused to be photographed wearing a mask. Many conservatives criticized Biden for wearing a mask on memorial day.
> 
> Lots of Karens insisting on not wearing a mask as a political statement.
> 
> I do criticize Tam and the Surgeon General of the US for downplaying masks early on. I think they were lying to the public out of fear of causing PPE shortages for front-line workers. I think this is shameful. They should have leveled with the public and said that cloth masks are likely to be nearly as effective for light exposure risk situations the public might face and to leave disposable PPE for medical workers.


Trump is an idiot, and arguably not a Conservative.
Karens, are by definition self entitled clueless [email protected]%@. It's not a political thing.

I actually think it is time for Tam to resign, she's been giving bad advice, if not outright lying for months now, and people are suffering for it.


----------



## :) lonewolf

james4beach said:


> I think wearing a mask is an act of respect for everyone around you. It's not a lot of work, and masks are now readily available.
> 
> By going into a store with a mask, I'm showing consideration and respect for the people around me -- especially the workers who have to breathe around all these customers.


To each his own. I see wearing a mask as a symbol of I believe the BS scamdemic/plandemic. Wearing a mask helps promote the scamdemic. Many base truth by consensus seeing someone wear a mask makes others think the scamdemic is real. How can so many be wrong?

When they play games with the cause of death being Covid on death certificates, kill people with ventilators to increase the numbers of Covid deaths, Gates having a monopoly on global health, plus controls a lot of media, Wants to lock us in our homes till we are vaccinated with vaccine with who knows what wanting to track & control movement. Anyone committed to truth why would they want to wear a mask ?

Wearing a mask symbolizes you trust the BS & think the virus is more dangerous then the BS


----------



## calm

It seems that Rich Folks are in TV-Land claiming they have a right not to wear a mask
These Rich Folks must own their own home in the suburbs and can escape the inner city and the high contagion to be found there.
I think that Poor People who live in densely populated areas have a right to demand Rich Folks wear a mask.


----------



## like_to_retire

calm said:


> I think that Poor People who live in densely populated areas have a right to demand Rich Folks wear a mask.


Rich people don't wear masks and poor people do?

Where do you come up with this nonsense?

ltr


----------



## calm

like_to_retire said:


> Rich people don't wear masks and poor people do?
> Where do you come up with this nonsense?


.
I watched a small business owner on CNN scream about how it was her right to refuse to wear a mask. Much the opposite when abortion is a right or not.


----------



## like_to_retire

calm said:


> .
> I watched a small business owner on CNN scream about how it was her right to refuse to wear a mask. Much the opposite when abortion is a right or not.



I see. So a sample of one in 350 million people in the USA is a trend?

ltr


----------



## calm

like_to_retire said:


> I see. So a sample of one in 350 million people in the USA is a trend?


.
Did yuh not get the gist of what I was attempting to say?
Do I need to write "Generally Speaking" or "The Middle Class" when making a comment?


----------



## like_to_retire

calm said:


> .
> Did yuh not get the gist of what I was attempting to say?
> Do I need to write "Generally Speaking" or "The Middle Class" when making a comment?



Nope, you just need to say something that makes sense.

ltr


----------



## calm

A Cloth Mask Sizing Guide:


https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0356/5931/7307/files/sizing-guide-_new-size_e34a90b7-6469-466e-8b5a-c8bad5f3a905.jpg?v=1591669255


----------



## bgc_fan

I don't know if anyone has posted this, but I found this video funny: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article243818302.html


----------



## :) lonewolf

bgc_fan said:


> I don't know if anyone has posted this, but I found this video funny: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article243818302.html


Love, love the video it speaks of truth


----------



## m3s

Yet the same people wear underwear and get offended by breastfeeding mothers


----------



## Longtimeago

:) lonewolf said:


> Love, love the video it speaks of truth


When a few crazies spout nonsense, it does not make it 'speaking the truth'. 

Masks can help limit the spread of the virus. That is a fact. Do you hear any of these people trying to argue that masks do NOT help limit the spread? Answer, no you do not.

Here is how two adults debate something lonewolf. One makes a statement and then the other attempts to REFUTE that statement. ie. Masks help vs. masks do not help.

When one makes a statement and the other does not attempt to refute that statement but instead tries to change the subject to 'you're violating my civil rights', that is not a debate.


----------



## sags

They probably all belong to the same Assembly of Idiots church.


----------



## andrewf

We have a few such crazies right here on this board.


----------



## calm

Training Dog To Wear A Mask :


https://www.greaterfool.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/MASK-768x768.jpg


----------



## richno

bgc_fan said:


> https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article243818302.html


Wow. Speaking of psych wards...


----------



## calm

The bizarre “conservative” idea of “freedom” has struck again.
The outrage du jour is masks.

Ever since the post-Civil War days of Lister and Pasteur, we’ve known that wearing masks prevents us from contaminating open wounds or sickening other people with our breath.

But don’t tell conservatives about more than 150 years of science: face coverings during the pandemic are a liberal plot, and nothing is more important than “owning the libs.

When a national seat belt law was being debated in 1967 (and passed in 1968), there were protests all across the nation, with people refusing to wear them “on principle” and ending up dead in higher proportion to those who buckled up. (The movement persists to this day.)

In the 1970s, it was returnable bottles. I lived in Michigan, the fourth state to pass a bottle deposit law, and I remember well the pitched political battles around the issue, with conservatives asserting it was treason, a betrayal of America’s founding principles, to charge a 10 cent deposit on beer cans and soda bottles.

Also in that decade, the national speed limit was lowered to 55 mph to save oil after the 1973 Arab oil embargo; based on some reactions, you’d have thought the National Maximum Speed Law called for executing the occasional accidental speeder.

In the 1980s, the tobacco lobby launched a group called the Tea Party, declaring bans on smoking in restaurants and on airplanes were an existential threat to liberty and the first steps down the road to godless communism. People lit up just to get arrested, and the arrests always made the papers.
----

Conservatives make a mockery of themselves again with a bizarre war against the ‘tyranny’ of masks
By Thom Hartmann
July 01, 2020








Conservatives make a mockery of themselves again with a bizarre war against the 'tyranny' of masks


The bizarre “conservative” idea of “freedom” has struck again.Margaret Sullivan reported in the Washington Post on a new study that shows what we all intuited: people who get their news from Fox and right-wing hate radio—both promoting the idea that the economy is more important than your...




www.rawstory.com


----------



## :) lonewolf

m3s said:


> Yet the same people wear underwear and get offended by breastfeeding mothers





Longtimeago said:


> When a few crazies spout nonsense, it does not make it 'speaking the truth'.
> 
> Masks can help limit the spread of the virus. That is a fact. Do you hear any of these people trying to argue that masks do NOT help limit the spread? Answer, no you do not.
> 
> Here is how two adults debate something lonewolf. One makes a statement and then the other attempts to REFUTE that statement. ie. Masks help vs. masks do not help.
> 
> When one makes a statement and the other does not attempt to refute that statement but instead tries to change the subject to 'you're violating my civil rights', that is not a debate.





Longtimeago said:


> When a few crazies spout nonsense, it does not make it 'speaking the truth'.
> 
> Masks can help limit the spread of the virus. That is a fact. Do you hear any of these people trying to argue that masks do NOT help limit the spread? Answer, no you do not.
> 
> Here is how two adults debate something lonewolf. One makes a statement and then the other attempts to REFUTE that statement. ie. Masks help vs. masks do not help.
> 
> When one makes a statement and the other does not attempt to refute that statement but instead tries to change the subject to 'you're violating my civil rights', that is not a debate.


They are


Longtimeago said:


> When a few crazies spout nonsense, it does not make it 'speaking the truth'.
> 
> Masks can help limit the spread of the virus. That is a fact. Do you hear any of these people trying to argue that masks do NOT help limit the spread? Answer, no you do not.
> 
> Here is how two adults debate something lonewolf. One makes a statement and then the other attempts to REFUTE that statement. ie. Masks help vs. masks do not help.
> 
> When one makes a statement and the other does not attempt to refute that statement but instead tries to change the subject to 'you're violating my civil rights', that is not a debate.


 LTA I do not take requests.

If you want to take comfort in the herd by smothering your breathing in Bill Gates under wear do it. One look & the cowards who lack the courage to question boldly the truth are revealed.


----------



## Money172375

How long til N95 masks are available everywhere? 

In other news, in spite of price gouging laws in Ontario, a story on the news tonight Said a box of 50 masks was $3-4 before the pandemic....now they average close to $50


----------



## sags

My wife wore an N95 when she was out shopping, and in no time her face started to get red and bruised. 

I doubt people will wear them for long periods of time.

She has switched to a surgical mask, which is better but she also has to wear them at work all day. It is hard on the employees.


----------



## calm

Money172375 said:


> A box of 50 masks was $3-4 before the pandemic....now they average close to $50


Somebody is making huge money.
I purchased 10 blue/pleated/disposable for 13 bucks around the first of April.
I found them acceptable.

I needed some wash and wear masks.
I purchased these types of masks on-Line in April.

$29.00 for 1 only mask




__





This item is unavailable - Etsy


Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewellery, and more… lots more.




www.etsy.com




$56.48 for 3 masks








Adult Toronto Maple Leafs FOCO - Face Covering 3-Pack







www.nhlshop.ca




-----------------------------------------------------------
$63.30 - Ordered July 03. (Not received yet.)
I am not into "Style". I am into something that fits my face comfortably. No need to keep shifting it around.
Every mask I own always "felt" too small, so I want to try this one.








Masks


Patented nano popular copper mask. Washable Reusable Copper Face mask. Best Sellers safety respiratory protection easy breathing Face Masks for kids COVID-19 N95 filter and KN95 Masks. follow the CDC guidelines




www.coppermask.com


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> When a few crazies spout nonsense, it does not make it 'speaking the truth'.
> 
> Masks can help limit the spread of the virus. That is a fact. Do you hear any of these people trying to argue that masks do NOT help limit the spread? Answer, no you do not.
> 
> Here is how two adults debate something lonewolf. One makes a statement and then the other attempts to REFUTE that statement. ie. Masks help vs. masks do not help.


Why wearing a mask is bad for your health | The Real Food Channel

This is not rocket science. You do not need Fauci, WHO, CDC to pitch hit your thinking to know if masks are good for your health. When Bill Gates pays scientists to have an agenda the science goes out the window as well as the common sense of those that listen & believe the BS


----------



## andrewf

Money172375 said:


> How long til N95 masks are available everywhere?
> 
> In other news, in spite of price gouging laws in Ontario, a story on the news tonight Said a box of 50 masks was $3-4 before the pandemic....now they average close to $50


I bought a box of 50 surgical masks at costco for $28.


----------



## m3s

We've had mandatory masks where I am for 2 months now

I've been using a buff from the start and slowly I see more and more people catching on to this hack. It's far more comfortable and washable.

Plus I already had a bunch of them and gave some away. They're like $5


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> My wife wore an N95 when she was out shopping, and in no time her face started to get red and bruised.
> 
> I doubt people will wear them for long periods of time.
> 
> She has switched to a surgical mask, which is better but she also has to wear them at work all day. It is hard on the employees.


Your wife & the rest of the employees should refuse to wear them for safety reasons. If someone does wear a mask an accident or incident report should be filled out every time. Ask for the employer to supply air quality monitor so the employees can test oxygen levels like on the video I posted up stream. They are killing people to promote their agenda.


----------



## Longtimeago

m3s said:


> We've had mandatory masks where I am for 2 months now
> 
> I've been using a buff from the start and slowly I see more and more people catching on to this hack. It's far more comfortable and washable.
> 
> Plus I already had a bunch of them and gave some away. They're like $5


A Buff will not stop transmission. They are too open a weave. Buff is making this quite clear on their website. COVID-19 Response | BUFF® Canada

Try this test m3s. Hold your Buff up to a 'backlight' like a window or lamp. If you can see light through it, it will not prevent spread. You will find you need to have about 4 layers of Buff before you stop seeing light through it.


----------



## Longtimeago

Toronto and Ottawa now require masks to be worn in all indoor setting open to the public. More municipalities in Ontario are preparing to follow suit.








Here's what you need to know about the mandatory face mask policy in Toronto


Masks are now mandatory in Toronto as everyone is required to wear face masks in any indoor public space. Recently, Toronto released further detail...




www.blogto.com


----------



## bgc_fan

Longtimeago said:


> A Buff will not stop transmission. They are too open a weave. Buff is making this quite clear on their website. COVID-19 Response | BUFF® Canada
> 
> Try this test m3s. Hold your Buff up to a 'backlight' like a window or lamp. If you can see light through it, it will not prevent spread. You will find you need to have about 4 layers of Buff before you stop seeing light through it.


I think this is an appropriate spot for this meme:


http://imgur.com/4X5tdyn


It's given that short of N95 masks, transmission will always be possible as even surgical masks leave some opening on the sides. However, the idea of these types of coverings is to reduce droplet transmission which reduces the likelihood to infect others. Of course, given that there is evidence that the virus may be airborne, that's another issue and problem.

Think about the face shields that people are wearing, it's meant to deal with direct droplet transfer to face/eyes, not airborne virus.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> *Your wife & the rest of the employees should refuse to wear them for safety reasons.* If someone does wear a mask an accident or incident report should be filled out every time. Ask for the employer to supply air quality monitor so the employees can test oxygen levels like on the video I posted up stream. *They are killing people to promote their agenda.*


 ... this post warrants a loaded reply but I'll sum it up with  ....


----------



## Longtimeago

Beaver101 said:


> ... this post warrants a loaded reply but I'll sum it up with  ....


Not to worry Beaver101, we all know Lonewolf is pretty much ALONE in his thinking. An appropriate name don't you think.


----------



## m3s

Longtimeago said:


> A Buff will not stop transmission. They are too open a weave. Buff is making this quite clear on their website. COVID-19 Response | BUFF® Canada
> 
> Try this test m3s. Hold your Buff up to a 'backlight' like a window or lamp. If you can see light through it, it will not prevent spread. You will find you need to have about 4 layers of Buff before you stop seeing light through it.


I said it would? If you happen to know how to stop transmission maybe you should @CDC

Any covering will diffuse spread of breath and droplets far more than no covering. Face covering is mandatory in public where I live. N95 grade is not required, nor available and is in fact reserved and prioritized for health care professionals here

I do not have N95 medical grade mask while I do have buffs. If I had a stockpile of N95 masks I would donate them to healthcare professionals as requested here. Most here are wearing cloth masks, bandanna etc. Buff style is just tube form rather than a square with strings

It is not black and white like most things in life. N95 mask will not absolutely stop transmission either. It is a balance function and comfort while being in compliance with local rules. I have access to hazmat CBRN style equipment that would stop far more than N95 but it is not practical or realistic

Considering I have no symptoms or contact with anyone who does, a buff that diffuses my breath and droplets is reasonable imo. We were one of the first in NA to mandate cloth face coverings in public and like other countries the stats are very good.

There are not enough medical grade masks for everyone hence the requirement is simply to "cover" Even if there was I don't believe it is necessary


----------



## andrewf

Longtimeago said:


> Not to worry Beaver101, we all know Lonewolf is pretty much ALONE in his thinking. An appropriate name don't you think.


He is one of two people I have blocked. I don't need to be exposed to the ravings of someone with mental illness.


----------



## Longtimeago

m3s said:


> I said it would? If you happen to know how to stop transmission maybe you should @CDC
> 
> Any covering will diffuse spread of breath and droplets far more than no covering. Face covering is mandatory in public where I live. N95 grade is not required, nor available and is in fact reserved and prioritized for health care professionals here
> 
> I do not have N95 medical grade mask while I do have buffs. If I had a stockpile of N95 masks I would donate them to healthcare professionals as requested here. Most here are wearing cloth masks, bandanna etc. Buff style is just tube form rather than a square with strings
> 
> It is not black and white like most things in life. N95 mask will not absolutely stop transmission either. It is a balance function and comfort while being in compliance with local rules. I have access to hazmat CBRN style equipment that would stop far more than N95 but it is not practical or realistic
> 
> Considering I have no symptoms or contact with anyone who does, a buff that diffuses my breath and droplets is reasonable imo. We were one of the first in NA to mandate cloth face coverings in public and like other countries the stats are very good.
> 
> There are not enough medical grade masks for everyone hence the requirement is simply to "cover" Even if there was I don't believe it is necessary



What an excuse. But what should we expect from someone who won't even buy a real Buff and goes for $5 copies.
'Hey if it looks like i'm complying with the intent, that's good enough.' 'Hey, if it looks like a Buff, why spend money on the real thing.' 'Hey, I wear fake rolexes too and no one knows, ain't I smart.'


----------



## :) lonewolf

bgc_fan said:


> I think this is an appropriate spot for this meme:
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/4X5tdyn


Try putting a cork in your butt so you cant take a **** see how good that works. It would have similar effects though some what slower then wrapping your nose & mouth with cellophane both would kill you. The more restrictive you make the mask to airflow the sooner it will kill you. The best mask to prevent exhaling the virus would be the use of cellophane.

Just like **** the body is designed to get rid of a virus by exhaling. The government cant even keep the potholes in the streets from wrecking cars, or run a bubble gum machine without running a huge deficit. Do you really trust Gates who cant even keep a virus out of his software or government to protect you from a virus? All they do is make matters worse.


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> He is one of two people I have blocked. I don't need to be exposed to the ravings of someone with mental illness.


 Cutting off oxygen supply from wearing masks can not only weaken the immune system by lowering oxygen levels in the body it can also lead to mental illness. Lowering oxygen levels while driving, operating machinery or cutting with knifes to prepare food is not a safe practice.


----------



## m3s

Longtimeago said:


> What an excuse. But what should we expect from someone who won't even buy a real Buff and goes for $5 copies.
> 'Hey if it looks like i'm complying with the intent, that's good enough.' 'Hey, if it looks like a Buff, why spend money on the real thing.' 'Hey, I wear fake rolexes too and no one knows, ain't I smart.'


It's basically a stretchy tube cloth. A brand is not worth 5x the price for no functional difference. Just like a blank $5 t shirt vs $25 w trendy logo

Actual professionals claim data and tests show any face covering is effective to reduce the spread. The N95 masks designed for high risk situations and are only good for a few hours - not practical for public use

Rolex is for people who feel a need to impress people they don't even like. I wear a watch that tells time. Rolex and most name brands are for posers


----------



## andrewf

I am mostly using a double layer homemade cloth mask. One layer is denim (old jeans) and the other is cotton. Denim is apparently one of the best fabrics for filtering, just a bit more difficult to breathe through.


----------



## :) lonewolf

m3s said:


> Actual professionals claim data and tests show any face covering is effective to reduce the spread. The N95 masks designed for high risk situations and are only good for a few hours - not practical for public use


If you touch your face from wearing the mask & catch the virus the mask will make the virus hit you harder & more likely to kill you. The mask even without the virus are not healthy cause health problems & can even cause death. The reason for death though will be from the new miracle cure no one dies of a hart attack any more only Certificate Of Vaccine ID AKA COVID


----------



## bgc_fan

:) lonewolf said:


> Try putting a cork in your butt so you cant take a **** see how good that works. It would have similar effects though some what slower then wrapping your nose & mouth with cellophane both would kill you. The more restrictive you make the mask to airflow the sooner it will kill you. The best mask to prevent exhaling the virus would be the use of cellophane.
> 
> Just like **** the body is designed to get rid of a virus by exhaling. The government cant even keep the potholes in the streets from wrecking cars, or run a bubble gum machine without running a huge deficit. Do you really trust Gates who cant even keep a virus out of his software or government to protect you from a virus? All they do is make matters worse.


Yeah, like all those surgeons who die wearing a mask while doing surgery. I'm sure you'd prefer that they don't wear masks when they open you up, but that's your preference.

And what does Gates have to do with anything? You have your own fake COVID news thread here: Non mainstream COVID info

But just for the sake of completeness I'll just report your message.


----------



## like_to_retire

bgc_fan said:


> Yeah, like all those surgeons who die wearing a mask while doing surgery. I'm sure you'd prefer that they don't wear masks when they open you up, but that's your preference.



Yeah, if someone has trouble breathing with a mask, just wait until they see what breathing is like with COVID-19.

ltr


----------



## :) lonewolf

bgc_fan said:


> Yeah, like all those surgeons who die wearing a mask while doing surgery. I'm sure you'd prefer that they don't wear masks when they open you up, but that's your preference.
> 
> And what does Gates have to do with anything? You have your own fake COVID news thread here: Non mainstream COVID info
> 
> But just for the sake of completeness I'll just report your message.


Follow the money


----------



## cainvest

bgc_fan said:


> And what does Gates have to do with anything?


I'm sure LW means this -> Imagine being Bill Gates


----------



## james4beach

m3s said:


> We've had mandatory masks where I am for 2 months now
> 
> I've been using a buff from the start and slowly I see more and more people catching on to this hack. It's far more comfortable and washable.


I tried the Buff, and maybe it was just the one that I tried, but it didn't stay "up". It's comfortable and feels nice at first, but it just slides down over time and does not stay in place. So I had to stop using it.

Others with a different head shape might have better results with the Buff

I have had best results with the Old Navy cloth masks. They are only $15 for a pack of 5 and can be ordered online. For me, the fit has been excellent. I had to wait nearly 2 months to receive them.


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> I'm sure LW means this -> Imagine being Bill Gates


The thing is, there are a lot of things to criticize him wrt Microsoft and the predatory practices employed to maintain its monopoly. But this whole COVID 19 conspiracy thing is just a waste of bandwidth.


----------



## Money172375

Anyone old enough to remember when they mandated seatbelts? Was there the same outcry?


----------



## like_to_retire

Money172375 said:


> Anyone old enough to remember when they mandated seatbelts? Was there the same outcry?



Yep, you'd have thought they wanted our first born. Ridiculous.

I also remember (as a motorcycle rider) when they mandated helmets. Good grief, it was the end of all freedoms.

The mask issue doesn't come close to the hue and cry.

ltr


----------



## calm

Money172375 said:


> Anyone old enough to remember when they mandated seatbelts?


I posted an historical view here.









Use of Masks.


Rich people don't wear masks and poor people do? Where do you come up with this nonsense? . I watched a small business owner on CNN scream about how it was her right to refuse to wear a mask. Much the opposite when abortion is a right or not.




www.canadianmoneyforum.com


----------



## :) lonewolf

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, if someone has trouble breathing with a mask, just wait until they see what breathing is like with COVID-19.
> 
> ltr


 Quarantine the healthy, seed the nursing homes with Covid, Quarantine the virus in peoples respiratory system by wearing a mask. Government makes matters worse.


----------



## like_to_retire

:) lonewolf said:


> Quarantine the healthy, seed the nursing homes with Covid, Quarantine the virus in peoples respiratory system by wearing a mask. Government makes matters worse.



Who knew that lonewolf was an environmentalist who wanted to save the whales.

ltr


----------



## Mukhang pera

I found this somewhat supportive of the idea of wearing masks. I find myself less resistant to the notion. But then, I am probably a tad gullible and easily taken in.

I'll wait for those here who are more knowledgeable and analytical in their thinking to reveal the weaknesses in the theory being propounded, if anyone takes a few minutes to view.

It matters not a lot here. No one living within a mile. I won't walk around with a mask all day. Nor have I found any compelling and cogent reason to wash my hands 50 times a day when we have no contact with outsiders for days at a stretch. But again, that may be a wholly erroneous view.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Mukhang pera said:


> I found this somewhat supportive of the idea of wearing masks. I find myself less resistant to the notion. But then, I am probably a tad gullible and easily taken in.


 If a nation expects to be ignorant & free in a state of civilization. It expects what never was & will never be.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Government is more dangerous then any virus. When it it come to freedom & liberty verses safety. It is wise to ere on the side of freedom & liberty. The tyrants in government are causing more death then COVID.


----------



## Topo

:) lonewolf said:


> ...seed the nursing homes with Covid...


Is this some sort of euthanasia? It sounds pretty horrible...


----------



## Beaver101

^ He (lonelywolf) is thinking of trying to be a contrarian on this forum ... I say it's not too late for him to get some help from outside of his thinking bubble (ie. get help from his mental health unit of his city/town or even his own physician).


----------



## Longtimeago

There is a rumour that looneywolf is actually a Russian state paid spammer with instructions to post in forums and attempt to foment political unrest. Sounds reasonable to me.

I now tend to think of all his comments as just static in the airwaves. To be ignored.


----------



## kcowan

You are describing a troll, not a person. People are too expensive to just provide irritation.


----------



## calm

MSNBC - Compare N-95 and a cloth mask.

N-95 97% effective
Cloth Mask 60% effective


----------



## :) lonewolf

Topo said:


> Is this some sort of euthanasia? It sounds pretty horrible...





Topo said:


> Is this some sort of euthanasia? It sounds pretty horrible...


 Up thread refer to posts #311 & #316


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ^ He (lonelywolf) is thinking of trying to be a contrarian on this forum ... I say it's not too late for him to get some help from outside of his thinking bubble (ie. get help from his mental health unit of his city/town or even his own physician).





Longtimeago said:


> There is a rumour that looneywolf is actually a Russian state paid spammer with instructions to post in forums and attempt to foment political unrest. Sounds reasonable to me.
> 
> I now tend to think of all his comments as just static in the airwaves. To be ignored.


LTA I have a lot of respect for the Russians they were smart enough to ban Bill Gates, Micro Soft, Jacob Roth Child & George Soros. There are 9.5 million people each year that die of cancer. Corona is no where near that. The numbers are total BS i.e., in the US if you have Covid & die of something else Covid is put on the death certificate. The test for Covid cant even be trusted Tanzania president had test done on fruit taken from the center of the fruit. Gave the fruit a persons name & age to make it look like a real person the tests came back positive from Bill Gates tests. a baseball player has 4 tests done 2 were positive 2 were negative. In New York there are doctors coming out & saying they are killing people with ventilators.

A naive person puts faith in government & are cowards to question boldly for truth while taking comfort in conformity


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ^ He (lonelywolf) is thinking of trying to be a contrarian on this forum ... I say it's not too late for him to get some help from outside of his thinking bubble (ie. get help from his mental health unit of his city/town or even his own physician).


The truth is my friend. I do not care if I am a contrarian or running with the herd as long as I am with my friend truth.

The tax payers should fire all those in the medical field that do not speak up against the BS regarding the Virus. They are being paid to better our health & they are destroying our health & vitality.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Money172375 said:


> Anyone old enough to remember when they mandated seatbelts? Was there the same outcry?


 There was evidence that seat belts saved lives very Big difference. Years ago the norm was for people to take responsibility for themselves. Now people do not want to take responsibility to hold themselves up they act like puppets & want a dictator to pull the strings


----------



## like_to_retire

Longtimeago said:


> There is a rumour that looneywolf is actually a Russian state paid spammer with instructions to post in forums and attempt to foment political unrest. Sounds reasonable to me.
> 
> I now tend to think of all his comments as just static in the airwaves. To be ignored.



I never use the "ignore" function. This is the tool of a closed mind. Listen to everyone and decide for yourself, rather than only reading posts that agree with your point of view.

Actually, _lonewolf _is one of my favorite posters. 

Look past the bombast and you will find great intuition on many topics.

ltr


----------



## twowheeled

:) lonewolf said:


> Cutting off oxygen supply from wearing masks can not only weaken the immune system by lowering oxygen levels in the body it can also lead to mental illness. Lowering oxygen levels while driving, operating machinery or cutting with knifes to prepare food is not a safe practice.


the drivel you are spreading is just ridiculous, please stop. I bet all those people in colorado also have weakened immune systems from living at altitude with less oxygen. This is what happens when someone with no medical background "teaches" themselves on the internet and then proceeds to "teach" others.


----------



## calm

Trump told Hannity that he will wear a mask tomorrow when visiting a hospital.
Kudlow said that people should wear a mask like the president encouraged them to do.


----------



## calm

I thought that this was a good video because a candle shows how effective masks are.

Wear A Mask
By Bill Nye the Science Guy
July 09, 2020
(Flash Video)








Bill Nye the Science Guy returns for ‘wear a mask!’ PSA on coronavirus - National | Globalnews.ca


Bill Nye appears in a new TikTok video explaining why science rules — especially when it comes to the science of masks during a pandemic.




globalnews.ca


----------



## agent99

Don't know if it was here, but I put forward the possibility of the virus being suspended in airstreams some time ago. I did work in the field of removal of very small aerosols from gas streams many years ago. When droplets are formed, they tend to have a wide size distribution.

6ft distancing is a very crude measure in preventing droplets from one person's breath from reaching another. Wearing a home made mask possibly better. Surgical or N95 mask, no doubt better.

But finally, scientists and perhaps WHO now are starting to recognize that extremely small virus containing aerosol droplet may just remain suspended. They may move in an air stream, or they may just remain suspended for some time, just as clouds do.

So if you walk down an aisle in a store, you could very well breathe in aerosol droplets that the person before you has breathed out. A mask will help. But what type of mask will filter out those tiny droplets?

I am interested to hear what solution the scientists and WHO will suggest. In my industrial applications, we would need a much more efficient filter/demister. In case of Covid, a much more efficient mask.

As a minimum, I believe we should wear masks that have been *tested and approved* to remove whatever size of droplets they determine are present. The current home-made masks may be better than nothing, but just won't hack it.

Solutions other than masks for aerosols? Not easy. Maybe UV system on ventilation systems? Nothing simple comes to mind.


----------



## calm

agent99 said:


> Don't know if it was here, but I put forward the possibility of the virus being suspended in airstreams some time ago.


Your post was very informative .....

I just can't fathom how socialization can continue between human beings if a more complex masking is necessary. I am panting for air with just a simple cloth mask on.

In northern climates, and the cold weather, it would be costly (heating) to introduce a more frequent air change in any building.

Scarios!


----------



## :) lonewolf

Mukhang pera said:


> I found this somewhat supportive of the idea of wearing masks. I find myself less resistant to the notion. But then, I am probably a tad gullible and easily taken in.
> 
> I'll wait for those here who are more knowledgeable and analytical in their thinking to reveal the weaknesses in the theory being propounded, if anyone takes a few minutes to view.


 Why do people cough when sick ? Could it be the body is getting rid of something it does not want ? A mask is @ war with the bodies natural healing process. This is not rocket science, I do not need scientists with an agenda to pitch hit my thinking.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> There is a rumour that looneywolf is actually a Russian state paid spammer with instructions to post in forums and attempt to foment political unrest. Sounds reasonable to me.
> 
> I now tend to think of all his comments as just static in the airwaves. To be ignored.


 You accept what ever they say & because of you we will lose our liberties because you question me not them. I will not take away your liberty, they will because they seek power.


----------



## calm

:) lonewolf said:


> Why do people cough when sick ?


Why do hospital staff wear masks?


----------



## :) lonewolf

twowheeled said:


> . This is what happens when someone with no medical background "teaches" themselves on the internet and then proceeds to "teach" others.





calm said:


> Why do hospital staff wear masks?


 How do you know if they should be wearing masks ? If masks were so good why dont doctors wear masks 24/7. Doctors do not even put masks on their first born when they leave the womb to wear 24/7 for the rest of their life.


----------



## calm

:) lonewolf said:


> How do you know if they should be wearing masks ?


So, doctors have been wearing masks in a hospital for a century because they are stupid liberals?


----------



## :) lonewolf

calm said:


> So, doctors have been wearing masks in a hospital for a century because they are stupid liberals?


 Refer up thread to post #307 video link, time section 3:56 - 5:20


----------



## calm

:) lonewolf said:


> Refer up thread to post #307


Okay .... I viewed the segment you referenced.
I don't agree with the view. 
I think I will continue wearing a mask just to be sure.
A hundred years from today, I might see you in heaven and we can then have a review of the evidence in hingsight.


----------



## :) lonewolf

richno said:


> Speaking of mental illness...


 Having enough oxygen in the brain is crucial to brain function. & there for the body as a whole. The brain needs a constant supply of both oxygen & glucose. Without oxygen or with low oxygen levels the brain has trouble signaling where to send blood to oxygen hungry muscles & tissues.


----------



## richno

I hear COVID-19 can cause a lack of oxygen with certain side effects, including death, as well. 



:) lonewolf said:


> Having enough oxygen in the brain is crucial to brain function. & there for the body as a whole. The brain needs a constant supply of both oxygen & glucose. Without oxygen or with low oxygen levels the brain has trouble signaling where to send blood to oxygen hungry muscles & tissues.


----------



## james4beach

Walmart now requires masks at all of its US stores.

That's kind of cute that America is figuring out that you need to wear masks during a pandemic. The Asians figured it out 5 months ago, some even earlier.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Walmart now requires masks at all of its US stores.
> 
> That's kind of cute that America is figuring out that you need to wear masks during a pandemic. The Asians figured it out 5 months ago, some even earlier.


Kind of bad that our government was lying to us and saying that we didn't need masks.


----------



## Eder

Strange that we cut Covid down in BC & Alberta when masks weren't recommended...now that use is more common cases are increasing rapidly. My guess is that people feel protected by wearing a mask so fail to properly distance. A lot of hope & faith is put into mask use.

At any rate the curve has been flattened without mask use and that is what we set out to do back in March. Now we can wait for our turn to get Covid or welcome a vaccine or use Plaquinel I guess.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> Strange that we cut Covid down in BC & Alberta when masks weren't recommended...now that use is more common cases are increasing rapidly. My guess is that people feel protected by wearing a mask so fail to properly distance. A lot of hope & faith is put into mask use.
> 
> At any rate the curve has been flattened without mask use and that is what we set out to do back in March. Now we can wait for our turn to get Covid or welcome a vaccine or use Plaquinel I guess.


The reason the numbers were cut down in Alberta in the earlier days was because people were staying at home and most things were shut down. The purpose of masks is the additional defense to reduce risks. It's not needed if there is no risk because people weren't going out or they are outside and maintaining distance. As more people go out and are closer together inside, masks will help reduce spread, especially untraceable spread. I have a rule that any time inside a place with others or anytime we cannot maintain distance (outdoors too), we wear a masks. If I have control, I will ask them to wear a mask too. Anyone entering my home (service person or close friend) must wear a mask while inside. For some of the businesses that we frequent, we have left because the staff were really close, didn't have masks or any safety barriers. Our waitress at a restaurant didn't have a mask, I just asked if there was another section with the person with a mask. 

For the idiots that ask if masks are so good why not wear them 24 hours, there is no risks in your home unless someone has virus. I know of several people in the healthcare and emergency response that will wear a mask when in close contact with their family if they have been exposed to the virus.

The quick version is if people want the economy to continue to open then wearing a mask is one of the ways to do so. If they don’t want a mask, then they must stay at at home.


----------



## AltaRed

Eder said:


> Strange that we cut Covid down in BC & Alberta when masks weren't recommended...now that use is more common cases are increasing rapidly. My guess is that people feel protected by wearing a mask so fail to properly distance. A lot of hope & faith is put into mask use.


People were in lock down for the most part in the early months. You are data mining. Go do downtown Kelowna this past week and there are crowds of really bright 20somethings and 30somethings spreading covid-19 as we speak.

Thirteen as of Tuesday morning just because an orgiainal group of 7-10? (Kelowna/Calgary/Vancouver) neanderthals partied in two resort hotel rooms, milled between tables at Cactus Club, etc. Had nothing to do with masks. They didn't have any but decided to spread it in various places downtown. Two weeks from now.......?

Mask use does matter. Given it appears tourists are bringing our way, I now wear a mask any time I am around quite a few people where physical distance is likely being compromised. I wore a mask for the first time in Superstore today just because..... I wore one at Costco yesterday because the place was one big petri dish with maybe no more than 3/4 wearing masks even though staff at the entrance were handing them out. Brilliant...... Outstanding even.


----------



## Eder

OK ... as long as people understand that a mask will not help you avoid Covid...its only use is if you do have Covid.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Mask


Eder said:


> OK ... as long as people understand that a mask will not help you avoid Covid...its only use is if you do have Covid.


 The virus is to small it will get through the mask. MASKS DO NOT WORK. The tiniest bacterium is 20 times bigger then a virus. A bacterium is a complete living cell. Where a virus is a complex protein molecule. Which can only grow & multiply in a host. A living cells Marriam Webster

If anything gets through & it always does irrespective of the mask. Then you are going to get infected. MASKS CAN NOT POSSIBLY WORK


----------



## bgc_fan

:) lonewolf said:


> Mask
> 
> 
> The virus is to small it will get through the mask. MASKS DO NOT WORK. The tiniest bacterium is 20 times bigger then a virus. A bacterium is a complete living cell. Where a virus is a complex protein molecule. Which can only grow & multiply in a host. A living cells Marriam Webster
> 
> If anything gets through & it always does irrespective of the mask. Then you are going to get infected. MASKS CAN NOT POSSIBLY WORK


Schrodinger's mask. Too restrictive to allow CO2, and to pass through which, according to you will suffocate people. Plus, apparently it prevents virus from being exhaled through coughing, yet masks don't work now.

Make up your mind.


----------



## AltaRed

:) lonewolf said:


> Mask
> 
> 
> The virus is to small it will get through the mask. MASKS DO NOT WORK. The tiniest bacterium is 20 times bigger then a virus. A bacterium is a complete living cell. Where a virus is a complex protein molecule. Which can only grow & multiply in a host. A living cells Marriam Webster
> 
> If anything gets through & it always does irrespective of the mask. Then you are going to get infected. MASKS CAN NOT POSSIBLY WORK


It is the moist droplets that even the paper masks catch. The virus is not airborne on its own. It is attached to something, e.g. a moisture droplet from a mouth or nose. That is not a difficult concept. 

Beyond that, the broader use of mask by a vast majority of the population brings with it some societal pressure to those NOT wearing a mask, but probably are the ones who actually should, causing more of them to 'conform' or 'comply'. There will always be those who think only of themselves. Not much can be done with them but at least the risk probability goes down. FWIW, we prudently wear masks where some courtesy and consideration of others is warranted.


----------



## :) lonewolf

AltaRed said:


> It is the moist droplets that even the paper masks catch. The virus is not airborne on its own. It is attached to something, e.g. a moisture droplet from a mouth or nose. That is not a difficult concept.
> 
> Beyond that, the broader use of mask by a vast majority of the population brings with it some societal pressure to those NOT wearing a mask, but probably are the ones who actually should, causing more of them to 'conform' or 'comply'. There will always be those who think only of themselves. Not much can be done with them but at least the risk probability goes down. FWIW, we prudently wear masks where some courtesy and consideration of others is warranted.


 Cut the crap regarding consideration to others. Scaring women & children over a virus that is no more deadly then the flu is being abusive.


----------



## Topo

There is no harm in using masks and they may help. But it is possible that not using masks could accelerate transmission among the population, leading to morbidity and economic damage. Perhaps a "Pascal's wager" is in order here? All else being equal, where would you place your bet?


----------



## :) lonewolf

My bet government with the help of Bill Gates, Sorros , Rockefeller plus some others are more deadly then any virus


----------



## Topo

:) lonewolf said:


> My bet government with the help of Bill Gates, Sorros , Rockefeller plus some others are more deadly then any virus


What about wearing masks, not as submission to government mandates, but as a way to "stick it to the man"? Sort of an anarchist move...


----------



## :) lonewolf

When playing the market you are playing against some of the most powerful corrupt people in the world. The people on this forum if they are worth their salt should understand this yet they are blind to the corruption regarding a cold virus.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Topo said:


> What about wearing masks, not as submission to government mandates, but as a way to "stick it to the man"? Sort of an anarchist move...


Who am I to think & judge Everyone around me is wearing a mask the virus must be as bad as CNN says. In reality Masks are not healthy to wear & they do nothing to help.


----------



## Longtimeago

73-year-old man shot and killed by police in Haliburton following mask-related incident at Minden grocery store | kawarthaNOW


By kawarthaNOW. Man allegedly assaulted grocery store employee after being asked to wear a mask, was subsequently pursued by police.




kawarthanow.com





So an 'I don't have to wear a mask' idiot assaulted a grocery store employee when told he could not enter the store without wearing one. Then he had a confrontation with police in his driveway and the police called for back up. Then the guy ended up shot and he died.

How stupid does someone have to be to end up getting shot to death over wearing a mask.


----------



## Eder

So if you have had Covid there's no reason to wear a mask. Soon once we've had the vaccine there's no reason to wear a mask. 
For now it should be no big deal if asked to wear a mask indoors in stores etc. Outdoors I don't think I'll wear one but I'm sure some social warriors will have their heads explode over that lol.


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> OK ... as long as people understand that a mask will not help you avoid Covid...its only use is if you do have Covid.


I don't think many "understand" or believe that. You and some others may, but it is likely not true.

Even the experts don't really know. But they are now strongly placing their bets on likelyhood that masks help spread of Covid from and to the mask wearer.

Just wear a mask if you want better chance of staying safe (and alive!)


----------



## Longtimeago

Eder said:


> OK ... as long as people understand that a mask will not help you avoid Covid...its only use is if you do have Covid.


A mask it not intended to help you avoid catching the virus, it is intended to help you avoid spreading the virus to others.

They way you worded it makes it sound like only people who know they have the virus should wear one. If they know they have the virus, they shouldn't be out and about at all, they should be quarantining themselves till they test negative.

Wearing a mask in public is for people who do not KNOW if they have the virus or not. You may be totally asymptomatic, have the virus and be spreading it without knowing you are. Wearing a mask protects us all from each other in such a situation. Since we don't necessarily KNOW if we have the virus, the prudent thing to do is to err on the side of caution and ASSUME we have the virus, wear a mask and protect others from ourselves.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> So if you have had Covid there's no reason to wear a mask. Soon once we've had the vaccine there's no reason to wear a mask.
> For now it should be no big deal if asked to wear a mask indoors in stores etc. Outdoors I don't think I'll wear one but I'm sure some social warriors will have their heads explode over that lol.


By what logic would you not wear a mask once you've had COVID19?
If you're in Canada, and you're walking around the studies suggest you may have lost much of any immunity you would have built up.
Or do you think that surviving COVID19 once means it's okay to get a second time?


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> If you're in Canada, and you're walking around the studies suggest you may have lost much of any immunity you would have built up.


Which studies?


----------



## MrMatt

Which studies?
"Immunity passports" in the context of COVID-19

More recent
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.09.20148429v1.full.pdf

My question is if you are aware of any studies that show the presence of antibodies after several months.
Also there were reports of repeat infections going back several months.

Just to be clear, as I've said in the other thread, I'm only saying that that right now the data suggests that long term immunity or resistance to COVID19 does not appear likely. 
While I generally keep a positive attitude, I think we should stick to the science.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Which studies?
> "Immunity passports" in the context of COVID-19
> 
> More recent
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.09.20148429v1.full.pdf


The WHO is old and just says no data as of April 24, 2020.

The second just states more data is needed to determine immunity level needed to fight off re-infection and also how long they'll last.

Anything else?


----------



## Eder

Kinda silly to think no immunity as other viruses do offer immunity and a common treatment is using ex corona patients blood to provide immunity to others lucky enough to receive it. Since the first cases to study are only a few months old theres nothing to show that we wont carry anti bodies.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Kinda silly to think no immunity as other viruses do offer immunity and a common treatment is using ex corona patients blood to provide immunity to others lucky enough to receive it. Since the first cases to study are only a few months old theres nothing to show that we wont carry anti bodies.


It seems silly to dismiss the experience and knowledge of experts as "kinda silly".

They've tried to make Coronavirus vaccines in the past, significant effort was put into a SARS vaccine. They've never been successful. This isn't chicken pox, or the flu, or ebola. It's a completely different virus, that behaves significantly different than other virii.

You clearly didn't read the information. It very clearly shows that we don't seem to carry the antibodies very long. 
Since the number of antibodies diminishes very quickly, and there are reports that some people have been infected with COVID19 multiple times, there is data to suggest that any immunity is short lived.


----------



## sags

I predict another 12 months of closures and government financial support.

Anything else is just wishful thinking, based on diddly squat.

People need to face the reality and stop living in a dream world. The virus isn't going away.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> You clearly didn't read the information. It very clearly shows that we don't seem to carry the antibodies very long.


If your conclusion is related to the link you posted above, no it does not state that.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Longtimeago said:


> 73-year-old man shot and killed by police in Haliburton following mask-related incident at Minden grocery store | kawarthaNOW
> 
> 
> By kawarthaNOW. Man allegedly assaulted grocery store employee after being asked to wear a mask, was subsequently pursued by police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kawarthanow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So an 'I don't have to wear a mask' idiot assaulted a grocery store employee when told he could not enter the store without wearing one. Then he had a confrontation with police in his driveway and the police called for back up. Then the guy ended up shot and he died.
> 
> How stupid does someone have to be to end up getting shot to death over wearing a mask.


Ontario just chalked up another COVID-19-related death.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> If your conclusion is related to the link you posted above, no it does not state that.


Actually it very clearly states that the antibody counts drop fast.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Actually it very clearly states that the antibody counts drop fast.


And it states ...

_*despite the waning nAb titres in individuals, it is *_*possible that nAb titres will still be sufficient to provide protection from COVID-19 disease for *_*a period of time.*_


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> And it states ...
> 
> _*despite the waning nAb titres in individuals, it is *_*possible that nAb titres will still be sufficient to provide protection from COVID-19 disease for *_*a period of time.*_


Yes it does say that.
It's likely that there will be some protection for a period of time. 

Unfortunately that period of time appears very short. Which is my point.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> Unfortunately that period of time appears very short. Which is my point.


They don't say what the "period of time" is (3 months, 2 years, etc ?), more data is needed.
As you said previously ... "stick to the science" so don't extrapolate your own conclusions about the time being very short.


----------



## like_to_retire

Maybe we'll all have to line up every 3 months and get our shots. 

After doing that for a while, wouldn't a virus eventually die - doesn't it need a host to perpetuate?

ltr


----------



## Spudd

Interesting article about 2 hairdressers who were positive for COVID-19, but wore masks while cutting people's hair. The clients also wore masks, and nobody caught it from the hairdressers.









2 hairstylists with COVID-19 saw 139 clients. Here’s why no one caught the virus - National | Globalnews.ca


Two U.S. hairstylists worked for days while having symptoms of COVID-19, but none of their clients caught the coronavirus.




globalnews.ca


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> They don't say what the "period of time" is (3 months, 2 years, etc ?), more data is needed.
> As you said previously ... "stick to the science" so don't extrapolate your own conclusions about the time being very short.


More data is needed to have a firm conclusion.

My statement was that there is no evidence of long lasting immunity. It is premature to act like there is long lasting immunity, because the data isn't there.

There is some data showing that the immunity may be short lived, with substantial declines in antibodies after a few weeks. If the antibodies reduce, it isn't unreasonable to suggest it is likely that the immunity is also reduced.

Even if you reject the data that antibodies fade in weeks, we still lack data that there is long lasting immunity. Which is my point.


----------



## :) lonewolf

cainvest said:


> They don't say what the "period of time" is (3 months, 2 years, etc ?), more data is needed.
> As you said previously ... "stick to the science" so don't extrapolate your own conclusions about the time being very short.


 People are forgetting the science of human nature. The scientists are not going to bit off the hand that feeds them. Bill Gates & the boys have an an agenda. The scientists will promote the agenda not science. Scientists that do not back up the scandemic will be let go from the payroll as well be silenced by the media that also has an agenda.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> More data is needed to have a firm conclusion.
> 
> My statement was that there is no evidence of long lasting immunity. It is premature to act like there is long lasting immunity, because the data isn't there.


Yes more data is needed, much more data. That is also one study with limited subjects.

It's also premature to suggest immunity is short lived because the data doesn't support that either.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Yes more data is needed, much more data. That is also one study with limited subjects.
> 
> It's also premature to suggest immunity is short lived because the data doesn't support that either.


Actually, the data does suggest it is short lived.

Also, if you don't know, you shouldn't assume atypical behaviour that works to your benefit.

Much more reasonable to assume this particular Coronavirus behaves like the other coronaviruses, until you get data to the contrary.

One of the problems is that people keep thinking of COVID19 like some version of the flu, which it isn't.


----------



## Eder

Covid is like SARs...immunity lasts a long time with that. Of course that fact is not scary so perhaps needs to be discounted.


----------



## :) lonewolf

MrMatt said:


> Much more reasonable to assume this particular Coronavirus behaves like the other coronaviruses, until you get data to the contrary.
> 
> One of the problems is that people keep thinking of COVID19 like some version of the flu, which it isn't.


 They need to do an investigation with the murdering of people. One look @ the chart of deaths of Covid & it is obvious something is wrong (sharp quick spike). The intentional killing of people with ventilators & seeding nursing homes with Covid needs to be investigated.


----------



## AltaRed

My assumption for now is immunity may last upwards of a year, with perhaps the length of immunity being related to the severity of the infection and the amount of antibodies any one individual has. Nothing else is possible to know with any certainty until enough time has elapsed in study subjects to find out!!!

Guess we will see if and when some re-occurences start to happen 6-9 months from now.


----------



## AltaRed

Eder said:


> Covid is like SARs...immunity lasts a long time with that. Of course that fact is not scary so perhaps needs to be discounted.


We don't know the degree of similarity yet. Likely closer to SARS than the common cold though. SARS immunity is about three years.


----------



## cainvest

AltaRed said:


> We don't know the degree of similarity yet. Likely closer to SARS than the common cold though. SARS immunity is about three years.


Ya, two-three years on a few studies I've seen for SARS. If SARS-cov-2 has the same length of immunity that'll be good.

Until many more studies come out where averages for immunity can be drawn from we'll just have to wait and see though.


----------



## cainvest

AltaRed said:


> Guess we will see if and when some re-occurences start to happen 6-9 months from now.


With such a large number of cases for many months now they must have some idea based solely on repeat re-infections. If there was a substantial amount I'd pretty sure news would have gotten out by now.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Catalunya is now saying masks are mandatory in all public places even if there is no one around. They are openly saying masks & social distancing will be long term i.e., forever or until everyone is vaccinated.

The nieve are blind to what is really happening


----------



## :) lonewolf

Melbourne 5 million people is getting locked down for @ least 6 weeks. Can only leave your home for work if cant work from home or for grocery shopping & medical reasons. All because of an alleged 191 cases. The nieve wear your mask play along with the BS. Wake up people.


----------



## MrMatt

AltaRed said:


> We don't know the degree of similarity yet. Likely closer to SARS than the common cold though. SARS immunity is about three years.


You realize that that abstract says the SARS antibodies last 3 years.
The COVID19 study I linked to said they were significantly reduced in less than 3 months.

Do you also realize that the article says 
"Immune protection against infection with other human coronaviruses, such as OC43 and 229E, is short-lived (_7_) "

Why do you think COVID19 is more like SARS than other human coronaviruses?


There are reports of reinfection.
There won't be many, lets assume a population has an infection rate of 1%, how many of those 1% are going to recover fully, wait another 3 months and get reinfected? That would seem to be a very very low number. 

It really sounds like you're trying to make assumptions and links to say there is a longer immunity time.
That data does not exist.
The limited data that DOES exist suggests the antibodies are short lived.
I'm saying assuming a long immunity is.
1. Premature due to lack of data.
2. Contradicts the existing data on COVID19
3. Is not a common characteristic across different coronaviruses.

The only reasons to assume long lasting immunity are
1. Because you want a long immunity.
2. Because you assume COVID19 is like other viruses you've heard of like SARS or the Flu, not like Coronaviruses OC43 or 229E. (as referenced in YOUR article)


----------



## Longtimeago

What to think in terms of immunity is very simple. Think there isn't any UNTIL they have enough data to tell us if there is and how long it lasts. You cannot say immunity lasts X years until AFTER X years have come and gone.

So the logic is simple. Assume NO immunity and act accordingly.


----------



## sags

New cases are coming from mostly young people being stupid.

Attending crowded bars and other places during a pandemic shows a disregard for others.

They are lining up in Montreal for testing now. Maybe they will start to think about what they are doing.

If everyone wears masks and practices social distancing, we can starve the virus for new victims. 

It is the only option we have at the moment.


----------



## agent99

cainvest said:


> Ya, two-three years on a few studies I've seen for SARS. If SARS-cov-2 has the same length of immunity that'll be good.


Won't help those who get infected now and don't make it for 2 to 3 years. Especially seniors with compromised immune systems.


----------



## agent99

sags said:


> If everyone wears masks and practices social distancing, we can starve the virus for new victims.
> 
> It is the only option we have at the moment.


That is the sad truth. But does the virus die off? It is amazing how it propagated throughout the world. So even if we in Canada control it with masks and social distancing, if others don't do it, it will probably find it's way back here. 

Sad math at moment is - how many people can we let die so that economy doesn't die? Scary decision to have to make. Phase 3 means more deaths, better economy. 

All we as individuals can do, is keep ourselves safe. Don't go in bars, restaurants. Eat Take-Out. Wear masks if we have to go to supermarkets. Order on Amazon and only if urgent go to big box stores. Stay out of gyms, malls and other public places. Have friends & family over - sit on outdoor deck with appropriate distancing, Walk, bike, play golf. And so on. That's what we are doing. 

Just keep yourselves safe.


----------



## AltaRed

MrMatt said:


> You realize that that abstract says the SARS antibodies last 3 years.
> The COVID19 study I linked to said they were significantly reduced in less than 3 months.
> 
> Do you also realize that the article says
> "Immune protection against infection with other human coronaviruses, such as OC43 and 229E, is short-lived (_7_) "
> 
> Why do you think COVID19 is more like SARS than other human coronaviruses?
> 
> 
> There are reports of reinfection.
> There won't be many, lets assume a population has an infection rate of 1%, how many of those 1% are going to recover fully, wait another 3 months and get reinfected? That would seem to be a very very low number.
> 
> It really sounds like you're trying to make assumptions and links to say there is a longer immunity time.
> That data does not exist.
> The limited data that DOES exist suggests the antibodies are short lived.
> I'm saying assuming a long immunity is.
> 1. Premature due to lack of data.
> 2. Contradicts the existing data on COVID19
> 3. Is not a common characteristic across different coronaviruses.
> 
> The only reasons to assume long lasting immunity are
> 1. Because you want a long immunity.
> 2. Because you assume COVID19 is like other viruses you've heard of like SARS or the Flu, not like Coronaviruses OC43 or 229E. (as referenced in YOUR article)


Seems to me you misread my post entirely and thus no idea why you got your knickers in a knot. I was disagreeing with Eder's post almost in its entirety. SARS does not have "long immunity" since three years is nothing to speak of on the immunity scale. Nor do we know yet whether Covid-19 is more like SARS or more like the common cold. The data is just starting to be collectible. It will take another 6-9 months to have more definitive answers. 

So called re-infections are being challenged as simply a flare up and continuation of the first infection, rather than a re-infection. It makes sense if you think about it. Anti-bodies vary from individual to individual, and pehaps by the severity of the original infection..

My comment was simply speculation that the 'source' of covid-19 is not dissimilar to the source of SARS and thus perhaps closer to SARS than to the common cold. No one yet knows.


----------



## MrMatt

AltaRed said:


> Seems to me you misread my post entirely and thus no idea why you got your knickers in a knot. I was disagreeing with Eder's post almost in its entirety. SARS does not have "long immunity" since three years is nothing to speak of on the immunity scale. Nor do we know yet whether Covid-19 is more like SARS or more like the common cold. The data is just starting to be collectible. It will take another 6-9 months to have more definitive answers.
> 
> So called re-infections are being challenged as simply a flare up and continuation of the first infection, rather than a re-infection. It makes sense if you think about it. Anti-bodies vary from individual to individual, and pehaps by the severity of the original infection..
> 
> My comment was simply speculation that the 'source' of covid-19 is not dissimilar to the source of SARS and thus perhaps closer to SARS than to the common cold. No one yet knows.


From a public health standpoint I consider an immunity of ~14mo, "long enough". They can roll it into the annual flu vaccine.


----------



## cainvest

AltaRed said:


> SARS does not have "long immunity" since three years is nothing to speak of on the immunity scale.


Very true, other immunities (non-corona) can last decades or more. I think though that if SARS-Cov-2 shows to have a three year duration, like SARS, that'll certainly help (my guess) impede future waves as time goes on. If the immunity turns out to be 6 months or less it could ping-pong around the world for much longer.


----------



## cainvest

MrMatt said:


> From a public health standpoint I consider an immunity of ~14mo, "long enough". They can roll it into the annual flu vaccine.


Agreed, 14 months is good if an effective vaccine can be created.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> What to think in terms of immunity is very simple. Think there isn't any UNTIL they have enough data to tell us if there is and how long it lasts. You cannot say immunity lasts X years until AFTER X years have come and gone.
> 
> So the logic is simple. Assume NO immunity and act accordingly.


 WHO is going to supply the data the most corrupt organization in the world funded mostly by Bill Gates.


----------



## AltaRed

MrMatt said:


> From a public health standpoint I consider an immunity of ~14mo, "long enough". They can roll it into the annual flu vaccine.


True especially IF they can combine it with flu vaccine, but that could be a big IF... flu viruses are rather different than coronaviruses. Regardless, if such a vaccine needed to be administered separately and a month or two apart, that would be okay too. Nuttin much to do but wait and see. Everything else is speculation.


----------



## james4beach

I'm not counting on a COVID-19 vaccine coming. But I think the medical system will make strong advances in treatment methods and drugs for people who get bad cases of the illness.

There already are various anti viral medications that can help. Even Cuba has an effective drug for treatment (Interferon Alpha-2B). It will just take the medical system a while to figure out a treatment methodology that is effective.

These various drugs also have powerful side effects so they have to be carefully used.

It makes perfect sense to slow down community transmissions, halt travel, etc while the medical system figures out all of this. Dosage, procedures, course of treatment.


----------



## james4beach

I was just in the grocery store (Vancouver) and noticed that mask usage has almost entirely disappeared now. The employees are wearing them, but it's rare to see a customer wearing one. Probably 10% or less are wearing.

And this is happening while the number of BC reported daily cases is noticeably higher than May & June levels.


----------



## sags

Effective today, our city has mandatory mask wearing for inside public places.

There are some exemptions, but the point is to publicly encourage people to wear masks and remove any doubt that people "should" be wearing them.









Face masks mandatory in all London indoor public places starting Saturday


London’s top public health official is making face masks mandatory in all indoor public places effective Saturday, and encouraging the city and area…




lfpress.com


----------



## Thal81

Effective today, it's mandatory in all indoor public places in the province of Quebec. No more screwing around.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I was just in the grocery store (Vancouver) and noticed that mask usage has almost entirely disappeared now. The employees are wearing them, but it's rare to see a customer wearing one. Probably 10% or less are wearing.
> 
> And this is happening while the number of BC reported daily cases is noticeably higher than May & June levels.


Alternatively, in my grocery store in a city that it's law to wear them I couldn't see a single person who didn't comply. So it would seem we have to be forced by law rather than rely on our judgement.

ltr


----------



## Money172375

in our region , I would guess that mask usage was well under 50%. Earlier this week, the health unit ordered their use. I’d guess we’re at about 90% usage Now. Governments need to enact these orders. It’s called leadership based on the best available evidence.


----------



## Beaver101

... and then there're those who can't wait to see their faces and names splashed on 6 o'clock news trying to being an exceptional "look-at-me!!!!" by refusing to wear a mask in a store and/or hopsital ... only to end up dead shot by the police for enforcing it or charged or lynched on social media. Bunch of absolute Covidiots.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ... and then there're those who can't wait to see their faces and names splashed on 6 o'clock news trying to being an exceptional "look-at-me!!!!" by refusing to wear a mask in a store and/or hopsital ... only to end up dead shot by the police for enforcing it or charged or lynched on social media. Bunch of absolute Covidiots.


That goes both ways. A store employee was killed for trying to make someone wear a mask. Your fear is taking away others right. The cival war will be those that value freedom against those that support in your face in your wallet government. I have no fear of death defending my rights there is no way i will live being a coward. There is no way I will be a puppet. People need to fight back against the tyrants


----------



## MrMatt

Thal81 said:


> Effective today, it's mandatory in all indoor public places in the province of Quebec. No more screwing around.


It's embarrasing that it took them this long to figure out that masks were a good idea.
To be fair the provinces likely didn't pass this earlier because the federal government was lying to them.


----------



## Longtimeago

Yesterday I heard a psychologist giving his take on why we have so many people against wearing masks. It seems contrary to common sense and it is. Masks will help reduce the spread even if only by a small percentage. That isn't debatable. 

The psychologists take on it was that there are still a good deal of people who do not want to accept that the world has changed as a result of this virus and who want things to be 'normal'. They do not want to accept that the 'old normal' is gone. If they wear a mask, they are in fact forced to accept a physical change in their lives.

People who have continued to shop in supermarkets etc. and are not wearing a mask are an example of someone who is not accepting that things have changed. Forcing them to wear a mask with mandatory rules, forces them to have to face that things have changed.

This psychiatrist's explanation made it quite clear and simple to understand why some people are so reluctant to wear a mask. It has nothing to do with their individual rights etc. that they try to re-direct the issue to. It is all about refusing to ACCEPT the change.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> It's embarrasing that it took them this long to figure out that masks were a good idea.
> To be fair the provinces likely didn't pass this earlier because the federal government was lying to them.


It didn't take anyone this long to figure it out and no one was lying about it. Initially we did not have enough supply to tell everyone to wear a mask. Limited resources had to be directed to where they would be most effective, ie. healthcare workers.

Also, while we were shut down, the message was clear, stay home, stay more than 2 metres apart, wash your hands often. If we did those things, there was no need to wear a mask and in fact if we still do those things there is no need to wear a mask.

As we started to open up however and people were having more interactions that in many cases resulted in not being able to continue to maintain a 2 metre distance, THEN it became more sensible to start telling people to wear a mask to help reduce spread even if only by a small percentage.

So what made sense while we were shut down made sense then and what makes sense now differs. No one needs to wear a mask if they do not come within 2 metres of anyone else. That hasn't changed. It is ONLY if you are going to come close to others that you should be wearing a mask to help reduce the possibility of spread. That message hasn't changed either.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> That goes both ways. A store employee was killed for trying to make someone wear a mask. Your fear is taking away others right. The cival war will be those that value freedom against those that support in your face in your wallet government*. I have no fear of death defending my rights there is no way i will live being a coward. There is no way I will be a puppet. People need to fight back against the tyrants*


 ... okay, then stop being a coward and defend your rights by not wearing a mask, mingle / no social distancing with strangers, etc. For one, I won't be crying for you while you're lying in the Covid ward/tent on a ventilator.

And as for not wanting to be a "puppet" - have you not been paying your taxes since you were legally able to do so? Duh.


----------



## Prairie Guy

agent99 said:


> Sad math at moment is - how many people can we let die so that economy doesn't die? Scary decision to have to make. Phase 3 means more deaths, better economy.


Actual math: In 2018 Canada had 23 flu and pneumonia deaths per 100,000. With a population of 37 million that's about 8500 deaths that we accepted without shutting down the economy:









Influenza and pneumonia death rate Canada 2000-2020 | Statista


In 2020, there were 15.6 deaths from influenza and pneumonia in Canada per 100,000 population, an increase from previous years.




www.statista.com


----------



## Longtimeago

Beaver101 said:


> ... okay, then stop being a coward and defend your rights by not wearing a mask, mingle / no social distancing with strangers, etc. For one, I won't be crying for you while you're lying in the Covid ward/tent on a ventilator.
> 
> And as for not wanting to be a "puppet" - have you not been paying your taxes since you were legally able to do so? Duh.


PrairieGuy isn't defending his rights Beaver101, he is simply refusing to ACCEPT reality. That's obvious when he tries to equate Covid-19 to the flu and suggest we should just carry on as normal and behave as if it was just the flu.


----------



## Thal81

The psychology of wearing masks is interesting. For the longest time, we were told that masks are used to protect others, not yourself. Now, I'm not in people's heads, but I'm convinced that the vast majority of people who did wear masks (when not mandatory) were doing so to protect themselves, not others.
Anyways, doesn't really matter, I'm just glad this is now mandatory, even though I don't like doing it.


----------



## Beaver101

Longtimeago said:


> PrairieGuy isn't defending his rights Beaver101, he is simply refusing to ACCEPT reality. That's obvious when he tries to equate Covid-19 to the flu and suggest we should just carry on as normal and behave as if it was just the flu.


 ... I was responding to LoneWolf ... not PG .. though the 2 could be cousins.


----------



## Longtimeago

Thal81 said:


> The psychology of wearing masks is interesting. For the longest time, we were told that masks are used to protect others, not yourself. Now, I'm not in people's heads, but I'm convinced that the vast majority of people who did wear masks (when not mandatory) were doing so to protect themselves, not others.
> Anyways, doesn't really matter, I'm just glad this is now mandatory, even though I don't like doing it.


At one point early in the pandemic Thal81, we had a poster here who shall remain nameless who was insisting that a home made mask would provide 95% protection against catching the virus. 

Yes, many thought it protected themselves and some still don't seem to understand it protects others from the wearer spreading the virus. I wear a mask to protect you, not to protect me.


----------



## Longtimeago

Beaver101 said:


> ... I was responding to LoneWolf ... not PG .. though the 2 could be cousins.


Oops, oh well, as you say though they are much the same. Both in denial.


----------



## cainvest

Prairie Guy said:


> With a population of 37 million that's about 8500 deaths that we accepted without shutting down the economy:


And that about equals the current deaths from covid (8839) so far with shutting down the economy. If we would have carried on without restrictions one can only estimate but the death toll would be much higher, 30,000-40,000 maybe?


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> And that about equals the current deaths from covid (8839) so far with shutting down the economy. If we would have carried on without restrictions one can only estimate but the death toll would be much higher, 30,000-40,000 maybe?


If we use USA as a comparison for deaths per capita (1M) (377 US vs 225 Canada), we would see at least a 50% increase. Or use Sweden which didn't shut down until late (522), we would see over a 100% increase. But if we did nothing at all, I could see a much larger increase as we're talking about exponential growth proportional to how early the country reacted.

COVID-19 Cases and Deaths, By the Numbers


----------



## Plugging Along

Thal81 said:


> The psychology of wearing masks is interesting. For the longest time, we were told that masks are used to protect others, not yourself. Now, I'm not in people's heads, but I'm convinced that the vast majority of people who did wear masks (when not mandatory) were doing so to protect themselves, not others.
> Anyways, doesn't really matter, I'm just glad this is now mandatory, even though I don't like doing it.


I was one of those people early on trying to get people to wear masks. I was a part of a group that helped get supplies and make masks. my thoughts right from the beginning was wearing a mask would provide the wearer some,protection, and the the other people around them some protection. 

in the early days I did wear a mask to protect me as I knew I wasn’t infected. Now I wear it for both reason. 




Longtimeago said:


> At one point early in the pandemic Thal81, we had a poster here who shall remain nameless who was insisting that a home made mask would provide 95% protection against catching the virus.
> 
> Yes, many thought it protected themselves and some still don't seem to understand it protects others from the wearer spreading the virus. I wear a mask to protect you, not to protect me.


I am that nameless person. If you took the time to read, my message has never changed. Wearing a mask does protect Others AND it does provide the wearer protection too. There are studies now showing that. True, there is more protection for those around you than the wearer, but the wearer does have some increased protection. I don’t know the % for sure, but there are some materials better than others. That’s still the case Assuming they are worn properly.

I still wear a mask to protect those around me. I have some level 3 surgical ones, a respirator mask, and so yes if choose to wear those, I am protecting myself and others. when I wear my cloth mask with my P2.5. I am still getting protection. It’s says up to 95%, hut that may iP for debate. The point always was wear a mask for protection. (Notice I didn’t specify who gets the protection). 

It’s pretty simple message if you are in a place with others and cannot Maintain distance - WEAR A MASK. If everyone followed this, there would be less transmission. That is a fact. 

even if a mask offered me no protection, I would still wear wear a mask for others Because I am not selfish. would you do the same?


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ... okay, then stop being a coward and defend your rights by not wearing a mask, mingle / no social distancing with strangers, etc. For one, I won't be crying for you while you're lying in the Covid ward/tent on a ventilator.
> 
> And as for not wanting to be a "puppet" - have you not been paying your taxes since you were legally able to do so? Duh.


Wearing a mask shows no respect for those murdered to increase the Covid death count. Wear a mask & play along with the fake pandemic.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Plugging Along said:


> I was one of those people early on trying to get people to wear masks. I was a part of a group that helped get supplies and make masks. my thoughts right from the beginning was wearing a mask would provide the wearer some,protection, and the the other people around them some protection.
> 
> in the early days I did wear a mask to protect me as I knew I wasn’t infected. Now I wear it for both reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am that nameless person. If you took the time to read, my message has never changed. Wearing a mask does protect Others AND it does provide the wearer protection too. There are studies now showing that. True, there is more protection for those around you than the wearer, but the wearer does have some increased protection. I don’t know the % for sure, but there are some materials better than others. That’s still the case Assuming they are worn properly.
> 
> I still wear a mask to protect those around me. I have some level 3 surgical ones, a respirator mask, and so yes if choose to wear those, I am protecting myself and others. when I wear my cloth mask with my P2.5. I am still getting protection. It’s says up to 95%, hut that may iP for debate. The point always was wear a mask for protection. (Notice I didn’t specify who gets the protection).
> 
> It’s pretty simple message if you are in a place with others and cannot Maintain distance - WEAR A MASK. If everyone followed this, there would be less transmission. That is a fact.
> 
> even if a mask offered me no protection, I would still wear wear a mask for others Because I am not selfish. would you do the same?


 If masks work why are they quarantining the healthy instead of just having them wear a mask


----------



## :) lonewolf

cainvest said:


> And that about equals the current deaths from covid (8839) so far with shutting down the economy. If we would have carried on without restrictions one can only estimate but the death toll would be much higher, 30,000-40,000 maybe?


 Lock everyone inside, close down the gyms, weaken everyone immune system is a recipe for death.


----------



## Eder

Seems there are no clinical studies on the effectiveness of masks to prevent Covid transmission...only articles...much like many other treatments. But hope & prayer & wearing masks wont hurt anyone.


----------



## Spudd

Eder said:


> Seems there are no clinical studies on the effectiveness of masks to prevent Covid transmission...only articles...much like many other treatments. But hope & prayer & wearing masks wont hurt anyone.


Here you go:








Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US | Health Affairs Journal


State policies mandating public or community use of face masks or covers in mitigating the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) are hotly contested. This study provides evidence from a natural experiment on the effects of state government mandates for face mask use in public issued by...



www.healthaffairs.org


----------



## james4beach

like_to_retire said:


> Alternatively, in my grocery store in a city that it's law to wear them I couldn't see a single person who didn't comply. So it would seem we have to be forced by law rather than rely on our judgement.


I agree. This is exactly why we have laws ... sometimes you can't rely on people to 'do the right thing' themselves, and society uses laws to enforce good behaviours especially when it impacts people _around_ them.

It's why you can't dump your trash in the street, and why you can't drive drunk

As @Longtimeago notes, the world has changed -- at the moment. There are some people who aren't grasping that. Masks will not be required forever, but they certainly are needed for the next few months.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> It didn't take anyone this long to figure it out and no one was lying about it. Initially we did not have enough supply to tell everyone to wear a mask. Limited resources had to be directed to where they would be most effective, ie. healthcare workers.


Actually Dr Tam was lying when she said we don't need masks.
That's very different than saying we should prioritize health care workers who need them more.


----------



## Eder

Spudd said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US | Health Affairs Journal
> 
> 
> State policies mandating public or community use of face masks or covers in mitigating the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) are hotly contested. This study provides evidence from a natural experiment on the effects of state government mandates for face mask use in public issued by...
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthaffairs.org



I was looking for a clinical trial...but no problem. Kinda like many doctors prescribing Plaquinel even though clinical trials have not been completed. But I agree wearing a mask is no big deal...but making it law is.


----------



## Spudd

Eder said:


> I was looking for a clinical trial...but no problem. Kinda like many doctors prescribing Plaquinel even though clinical trials have not been completed. But I agree wearing a mask is no big deal...but making it law is.


I can't imagine there would ever be a clinical trial, because you would need COVID-19 positive people to be randomized to either wear or not wear a mask and then mingle with healthy people. Seems highly unethical.


----------



## kcowan

Plugging Along said:


> I was one of those people early on trying to get people to wear masks. I was a part of a group that helped get supplies and make masks. my thoughts right from the beginning was wearing a mask would provide the wearer some,protection, and the the other people around them some protection.
> 
> in the early days I did wear a mask to protect me as I knew I wasn’t infected. Now I wear it for both reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am that nameless person. If you took the time to read, my message has never changed. Wearing a mask does protect Others AND it does provide the wearer protection too. There are studies now showing that. True, there is more protection for those around you than the wearer, but the wearer does have some increased protection. I don’t know the % for sure, but there are some materials better than others. That’s still the case Assuming they are worn properly.
> 
> I still wear a mask to protect those around me. I have some level 3 surgical ones, a respirator mask, and so yes if choose to wear those, I am protecting myself and others. when I wear my cloth mask with my P2.5. I am still getting protection. It’s says up to 95%, hut that may iP for debate. The point always was wear a mask for protection. (Notice I didn’t specify who gets the protection).
> 
> It’s pretty simple message if you are in a place with others and cannot Maintain distance - WEAR A MASK. If everyone followed this, there would be less transmission. That is a fact.
> 
> even if a mask offered me no protection, I would still wear wear a mask for others Because I am not selfish. would you do the same?


We just came back through Dallas from PV on American and everyone was wearing masks. As we waited for our connecting flight to Vancouver, we observed that 99% of the people in our terminal were wearing masks. Signs were posted saying it was mandatory but no one seemed to be fined or challenged for not wearing them. That was 3 people. None of them came closer than 6 feet. I would have challenged them if they did.

I did not feel uncomfortable and would fly again if I was confident of the destination. I am not confident in PV for the time being. They will follow the southern states. And eventually it will get under control. I did the shopping and we both went out for a couple of late lunches. But I was uncomfortable walking in the downtown area because so many were unmasked. I would make sure I was upwind.

I would not go back under current conditions because it was not fun.


----------



## james4beach

kcowan said:


> We just came back through Dallas from PV on American and everyone was wearing masks.
> . . .


How full was the plane? Were most rows full or did it look like people were spaced out?


----------



## :) lonewolf

james4beach said:


> I agree. This is exactly why we have laws ... sometimes you can't rely on people to 'do the right thing' themselves, and society uses laws to enforce good behaviours especially when it impacts people _around_ them.
> 
> It's why you can't dump your trash in the street, and why you can't drive drunk
> 
> As @Longtimeago notes, the world has changed -- at the moment. There are some people who aren't grasping that. Masks will not be required forever, but they certainly are needed for the next few months.


 You are forgetting human nature. Those making the laws are power tripping. Canada has ordered enough needles to vaccinate everyone twice with who knows what. Not sure if Canada is one of the countries where big pharma can not be held responsible for screwing up. Mandatory vaccination will kill & destroy more health more then any virus when a mad man is running the show.

This is a financial site yet everyone trusts government so much no one is talking about getting assets out of Canada because if your not vaccinated your bank accounts could be taken or your not allowed to work & must stay locked up. Maybe its time to move to Russia @ least Gates Sorros & Rockerfella are banned there.

Government is destroying the economy, The private sector produces all the jobs that are productive,

Do not think for yourself put your trust in Government.

More people die in auto accidents then COVID yet they dont ban autos.


----------



## cainvest

:) lonewolf said:


> More people die in auto accidents then COVID yet they dont ban autos.


Really? How many for is that for covid vs autos?


----------



## :) lonewolf

cainvest said:


> Really? How many for is that for covid vs autos?


The COVID numbers are fake. Tanzania president sent samples to Bill Gates testing facilities taken from the center of fruit. Gave the samples names, ages & M or F & had positive results. 

If tests are so accurate why cant people crossing the boarder into Canada to visit family just get tested instead of having to quarantine for 2 weeks. Professional baseball player sends in test tests coming back alternate from being positive & negative.



There is no way to tell the real death from COVID when death of COVID is put on death certificates when real cause of death is heart attack or car accidents. Hospitals in the US get extra money when COVID patents come in so if someone has the flu do you think they are going to put it as COVID or flu on death certificate. Plus the way of determining cause of death on death certificates has been change to increase the numbers.

Put your faith in government, media & Bill Gates instead of taking responsibility to do your own thinking.


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> How full was the plane? Were most rows full or did it look like people were spaced out?


Surprised that there were only 20 passengers in an Airbus. We asked the Steward if this was normal and he said yes. We had thought that it would be full after restrictions had been lifted but I guess the travelling public did not change.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Masks serve the following purposes

1 metaphor for shut up & do what your government tells you.

2 lower your oxygen level & increase CO2


----------



## like_to_retire

:) lonewolf said:


> Masks serve the following purposes
> 
> 1 metaphor for shut up & do what your government tells you.
> 
> 2 lower your oxygen level & increase CO2



I thought the oxygen level thing had been debunked?






ltr


----------



## andrewf

Masks do not reduce blood oxygen in any meaningful way. Millions of medical professionals have only been using them for decades. The quackery on the subject seems like desperate rationalization of the irrational desire to not wear a mask.


----------



## Longtimeago

As I have already commented on here, the psychological issues are why some people are unwilling to wear a mask. Doing so forces them to admit to themselves that there is an ongoing problem and that things are not 'normal'. 

It has nothing to do with personal rights, that is just an attempt to change the issue from protecting others which they cannot argue against. 

It's all about, 'I don't want to confront having to accept life has changed and I have to change my life to a 'new normal, I want to continue on in the 'old normal'.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> As I have already commented on here, the psychological issues are why some people are unwilling to wear a mask. Doing so forces them to admit to themselves that there is an ongoing problem and that things are not 'normal'.
> 
> It has nothing to do with personal rights, that is just an attempt to change the issue from protecting others which they cannot argue against.
> 
> It's all about, 'I don't want to confront having to accept life has changed and I have to change my life to a 'new normal, I want to continue on in the 'old normal'.


I reject a "new normal" that will result in massive loss of life and dramatically harm vulnerable populations.
We can do better than we are now.

I can accept that he system and plan we have in place is better than none, but to suggest the current system and plan is the best it could be is bad.

We have to fix the problems, we have to make things better for vulnerable populations, and we have to work to save lives. I reject your idea that this "new normal" with all the included pain and suffering is acceptable, it's time to make things better.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> I reject a "new normal" that will result in massive loss of life and dramatically harm vulnerable populations.
> We can do better than we are now.
> 
> I can accept that he system and plan we have in place is better than none, but to suggest the current system and plan is the best it could be is bad.
> 
> We have to fix the problems, we have to make things better for vulnerable populations, and we have to work to save lives. I reject your idea that this "new normal" with all the included pain and suffering is acceptable, it's time to make things better.


Yes MrMatt we have to do all we can and that now includes wearing masks. That is the topic of this thread and there is no need to try and change the topic is there? Let's concentrate on the mask issue here and leave broader discussions of what changes you want to see to other threads.

Wearing a mask will help save lives. Getting everyone to realize that and accept that THEY should be wearing one is the issue here.


----------



## :) lonewolf

like_to_retire said:


> I thought the oxygen level thing had been debunked?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ltr


 He wears the mask for about 15 seconds, no movement, masks were not sealed well around face. Up thread somewhere I posted a video where an air quality sensor was used & it showed masks do lower oxygen levels. Lower oxygen levels weakens the immune system. If masks worked so well why dont Olympic athletes wear them they would help filter out all the contaminated air so they could run faster


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> Masks do not reduce blood oxygen in any meaningful way. Millions of medical professionals have only been using them for decades. The quackery on the subject seems like desperate rationalization of the irrational desire to not wear a mask.


 If they dont reduce the oxygen levels how are they going the stop a virus the size of a molecule from getting through the mask LOL

If you want to stop a virus getting through use saran wrap. Gates cant even stop a virus on his computers. Do you really think Gates & his monopoly on world health as well of his control of a lot of the media is going to protect you from a virus

The human body is well designed & has fought of viruses long before masks were around. Let it do its job. Make masks mandatory then make vaccines mandatory reduce the population lower CO2 which is about .04% of the atmosphere. Do you really think lowering CO2 that is only .04% is going to make a difference. We need CO2 to survive


----------



## like_to_retire

:) lonewolf said:


> If masks worked so well why dont Olympic athletes wear them they would help filter out all the contaminated air so they could run faster.


Most of what I have read about masks is that they don't _filter out all the contaminated air. _Their purpose is to stop the virus from spreading when people breath out, so they wouldn't help runners much.

ltr


----------



## cainvest

:) lonewolf said:


> If they dont reduce the oxygen levels how are they going the stop a virus the size of a molecule from getting through the mask LOL


How about a hint?

Size in microns ...
Oxygen size 0.0005
Corona virus size 0.125


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> As I have already commented on here, the psychological issues are why some people are unwilling to wear a mask. Doing so forces them to admit to themselves that there is an ongoing problem and that things are not 'normal'.
> 
> It has nothing to do with personal rights, that is just an attempt to change the issue from protecting others which they cannot argue against.
> 
> It's all about, 'I don't want to confront having to accept life has changed and I have to change my life to a 'new normal, I want to continue on in the 'old normal'.


 Just like in a market crash fear causes people to sell as they follow what others are doing around them.

Fear is clouding everyone vision into wearing a mask as they listen to the politicians the scientists the media that has a bias that has been bought & paid for.

How many times are they going to fool you The earth is flat, Hail Hitler & March to Stalin for prosperity , hair spray is going to kill the ozone & destroy the world, Acid rain is going to destroy the planet, Destruction of the marsh lands will kill the planet, The cutting down the rain forest will kill the planet, Fossil fuels are going to destroy the climate as well as too many cows farting, Y2K will shut the world down. Put your faith in these so called scientists & government Tyrants or be an independent thinker using the laws of logic & principals of thought to gain truth. Thinking is a complex process of logical identification & as such is a selfish act that can only be performed by the individual mind.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> How about a hint?
> 
> Size in microns ...
> Oxygen size 0.0005
> Corona virus size 0.125


And n95 only effectively filter down to 2.500 (that's what PM 2.5 means)

The point with the mask is to stop the water droplets that are carrying the virus.
Thats why surgical masks still offer some protection.


----------



## Eder

Guy in Tim Hortons in Quebec got pepper sprayed & arrested for refusing to wear a mask to order.









WATCH: Montreal police tackle and arrest man in Tim Hortons for not wearing a mask


On Saturday afternoon, a man who refused to wear a mask was tackled to the ground and arrested by police in a Montreal Tim Hortons.




thepostmillennial.com





Pathetic...what a criminal!!


----------



## andrewf

Was he pepper sprayed for not wearing a mask or for resisting police? Just like the guy who got shot in his driveway last week after refusing to wear a mask at a grocery store and assaulting an employee. The sensational headline is that he was shot for not wearing a mask, and perhaps that was the inciting incident, but he was shot most likely to acting aggressively toward police when they visited his home (SIU investigation pending) and the police only visited his home because he assaulted someone at the grocery store. The mask thing is incidental.


----------



## Mukhang pera

How effective is a mask against pepper spray? Might be best to don that prophylactic device, sure enough.


----------



## like_to_retire

andrewf said:


> Was he pepper sprayed for not wearing a mask or for resisting police? Just like the guy who got shot in his driveway last week after refusing to wear a mask at a grocery store and assaulting an employee. The sensational headline is that he was shot for not wearing a mask, and perhaps that was the inciting incident, but he was shot most likely to acting aggressively toward police when they visited his home (SIU investigation pending) and the police only visited his home because he assaulted someone at the grocery store. The mask thing is incidental.


Exactly. Someone gets up in the morning, drives their car to a bank and robs it and is shot. 

The headline reads, _"Man is shot for getting up in the morning"_.

ltr


----------



## Eder

Why not serve him his coffee and ask that he wear a mask next time? 8' away is the table were he can sit mask free lol. Oh...of course that is impossible, maybe next time they can shoot him unless he is black of course.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Why not serve him his coffee and ask that he wear a mask next time? 8' away is the table were he can sit mask free lol. Oh...of course that is impossible, maybe next time they can shoot him unless he is black of course.


Because they will not serve people without a mask. Just like restaurants won't serve people without shoes or shirts. Wear them or GTFO.


----------



## Eder

Wear a mask or get pepper sprayed, body slammed & hand cuffed is what you meant right?

These days when its OK & unpunished to set trains on fire, terrorize city residents, tear down statues,and set fire to police cars I guess not wearing a mask to order a coffee is pretty serious requiring a violent response.


----------



## AltaRed

If one does not follow the rules and assaults the employee obligated to enforce the rules, then I think a police takedown of dolts like that is warranted. What is so difficult about following a practical and effective rule? 

I'd have no issue with telling some maskless dolt to back off..... I don't get this ******* resistance to doing the right thing (courtesy and consideration, if nothing else).


----------



## andrewf

He got body slammed and pepper sprayed because when the police told him he was going to be restrained and removed, his resisted. You have to be pretty brave or pretty stupid to put your hands on a cop.

The time to complain about police use of force or detention is after the incident. Resisting during the interaction is likely to get you roughed up at least and at worst end up dead.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Wear a mask or get pepper sprayed, body slammed & hand cuffed is what you meant right?
> 
> These days when its OK & unpunished to set trains on fire, terrorize city residents, tear down statues,and set fire to police cars I guess not wearing a mask to order a coffee is pretty serious requiring a violent response.



Absolutely, and it makes perfect sense. Unless you apply "white culture" concepts like logic or rational thought.


----------



## calm

AltaRed said:


> I don't get this ******* resistance to doing the right thing (courtesy and consideration, if nothing else).


We have now reached peak Libertarianism, and this bizarre experiment that has been promoted by the billionaire class for over 40 years is literally killing us.

It was called the Libertarian Party, and their principal argument was that if everybody acted separately and independently, in all cases with maximum selfishness, that that would benefit society. There would be no government needed beyond an army and a police force, and a court system to defend the rights of property owners.

Now, 40 years of libertarian Reaganomics have gutted the middle class, made a handful of oligarchs wealthier than anybody in the history of the world, and brought an entire generation of hustlers and grifters into public office via the GOP.








The True History of Libertarianism in America: A Phony Ideology to Promote a Corporate Agenda


Before Milton Friedman was earning plaudits as an economic genius, he was a shill for the real estate industry and an early pioneer for big business propaganda known as libertarianism.




www.alternet.org


----------



## MrMatt

calm said:


> We have now reached peak Libertarianism, and this bizarre experiment that has been promoted by the billionaire class for over 40 years is literally killing us.
> 
> It was called the Libertarian Party, and their principal argument was that if everybody acted separately and independently, in all cases with maximum selfishness, that that would benefit society. There would be no government needed beyond an army and a police force, and a court system to defend the rights of property owners.
> 
> Now, 40 years of libertarian Reaganomics have gutted the middle class, made a handful of oligarchs wealthier than anybody in the history of the world, and brought an entire generation of hustlers and grifters into public office via the GOP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The True History of Libertarianism in America: A Phony Ideology to Promote a Corporate Agenda
> 
> 
> Before Milton Friedman was earning plaudits as an economic genius, he was a shill for the real estate industry and an early pioneer for big business propaganda known as libertarianism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alternet.org


The Hustlers and Grifters are in government, because the government has too much power and massive amounts of money.
If you took the money out of government,t hey'd leave.

It's precisely because over oversized and highly intrusive government that you have these problems.
Look at the EU, for some reason they decided to have 2 Headquarters and spend over 100 million a year just moving back and forth. The level of waste in massive governments is crazy.
The scoundrels go where the money is, and government, with it's ability to seize whatever it wants from the people is the ultimate source of riches.
That's why you end up with people who are willing to throw away billions of tax dollars, just to get a few thousand back into their own hands.


----------



## :) lonewolf

AltaRed said:


> If one does not follow the rules and assaults the employee obligated to enforce the rules, then I think a police takedown of dolts like that is warranted. What is so difficult about following a practical and effective rule?


 The same excuse Hitlers henchmen used. The police are human they do not care about serving citizens & protecting citizens from the tyrants. They care about their pay check & pensions until their life is threatened. The employee is he power tripping or cares more about money then people


----------



## Eder

MrMatt said:


> Absolutely, and it makes perfect sense. Unless you apply "white culture" concepts like logic or rational thought.


I guess it wouldnt have taken much for the cop to buy the guys coffee for him rather than damage him...I guess the moron gen is taking over...I value a fat Quebecer over a mask law....how many people have had such abuse over perhaps a seat belt law...or bicycle helmet law ffs.

Do you honestly think had he been Acadian this would have happened. I'm suprised at the people eating their own here.


----------



## andrewf

Eder, do you think it is a good idea to resist police?


----------



## Eder

It seems the pipeline protests & recent BLM protests all resisted police for various reasons and people involved were exonerated & congratulated...in contrast to a fat white Quebecer wanting to buy a coffee. I am in disbelief.


----------



## andrewf

You can complain about inconsistent use of police force, but they are within their rights to use reasonable force when people resist detention or arrest.

In other mask related news. Trump has finally broken down as worn masks in public, and even says wearing a mask "is patriotic".


----------



## sags

I detest police overuse of authority, but they do have an important job to do.........and the majority of police officers are performing their duties well.

It is pretty simple. When they issue a command, only an idiot would challenge them. Do what they say and challenge their commands later.

It reminds me of people who argue that at they have the "right" to go through a green light without looking to see if everyone stopped on their red light.

Yes, you have the right to go through, but if you get slammed by someone going through a red light...........you may end up "dead right".

This is what I told my son when he started driving. Forget about being right.......and worry about being safe.


----------



## Eder

Just like Trudeau, Tam, Hinshaw, the WHO and others that previously believed masks were not effective. 

Personally I wear a mask where necessary , but actions like those Quebec cops will become a metaphor once the push back gains momentum...that's what disturbs me. There's no need to make silly laws...most will wear masks and we'll have our desired result....100% compliance is unnecessary. In the mean time I hope a Go Fund Me is set up for that guy to sue...haven't found one yet.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> There's no need to make silly laws...most will wear masks and we'll have our desired result....100% compliance is unnecessary. In the mean time I hope a Go Fund Me is set up for that guy to sue...haven't found one yet.


The higher the compliance the more effective reducing transmission is. I sadly do not believe most people will wear masks unless mandated. I have heard the argument, 'if masks were so important why isn't it mandated' If the facts were wearing a masks protected the wearer more, then I think more people would wear masks. I have heard people say 'I don't wear a mask because I don't have COVID'. Sadly, many people won't do things because there's nothing in it for them unless they have too. 

I would rather them mandate masks in certain places that make sense (ei. Transit, crowded places outdoors, public places indoors). Instead of everywhere, however, people just don't listen. Hence why some places say you have to wear a mask outdoors, which I think is generally silly.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Just like Trudeau, Tam, Hinshaw, the WHO and others that previously believed masks were not effective.
> 
> Personally I wear a mask where necessary , but actions like those Quebec cops will become a metaphor once the push back gains momentum...that's what disturbs me. There's no need to make silly laws...most will wear masks and we'll have our desired result....100% compliance is unnecessary. In the mean time I hope a Go Fund Me is set up for that guy to sue...haven't found one yet.


We tried voluntary and only got 30% compliance. Hence it becomes mandatory. And we can't let this guy freeload, or the idea of mandatory mask wearing becomes meaningless. Mandatory means mandatory.


----------



## Eder

Funny you defend police assaulting an old man not wearing a dust mask but defend a hoard of unmasked rioters threatening an old mans home.

I'll just shake my head and fly away here.


----------



## james4beach

I'm stepping up my level of cautiousness as the numbers in BC are rising. I'm continuing to wear a mask just about every time I go somewhere. I also ordered some more.

My guess is that masks will be mandatory everywhere in the country by autumn. They should be mandatory everywhere right now, IMO.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I'm stepping up my level of cautiousness as the numbers in BC are rising. I'm continuing to wear a mask just about every time I go somewhere. I also ordered some more.
> 
> My guess is that masks will be mandatory everywhere in the country by autumn. They should be mandatory everywhere right now, IMO.


They should have been mandatory in March.


----------



## AltaRed

MrMatt said:


> They should have been mandatory in March.


Probably but we know the primary reason why they were not. None around, not even on the front lines after shipping what? 6 or 16 tons of stuff to China?


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I'm stepping up my level of cautiousness as the numbers in BC are rising. I'm continuing to wear a mask just about every time I go somewhere. I also ordered some more.
> 
> My guess is that masks will be mandatory everywhere in the country by autumn. They should be mandatory everywhere right now, IMO.


Same here in AB. We have consistently had close to a 100 new cases a day. Today, 141 new cases. I am glad that council just approved mandatory masks in public buildings a few hours ago. This should have been much sooner. Especially since our premier just announced full school openings in Sept.

I had been preparing for a wave 2 prior to today. I been buying more masks to try and get ones we really like, and ones with better filtration options. I was surprised that I found KN95s at Costco, so bought some there this weekend. I also found cheap plastic face shields, surgical grade masks (shipped family over seas), disposable masks for visitors, and I found some more cloth ones. i found some great Tilly ones online at Costco, but they are sold out now, and buff makes a nice one Too. Just thought I would let you know as we have posted to each other before.

with the announcement of schools, masks won’t be mandatory. I am debating of trying to organize face Shield and masks for the classroom. Our school boards have gone through massive cuts before COVID and now are strained to put in new safety measures with no budget. I just don’t know if other parents would get mad at my thought of face shields for everyone. 



AltaRed said:


> Probably but we know the primary reason why they were not. None around, not even on the front lines after shipping what? 6 or 16 tons of stuff to China?


Though there were no N95s. There were lots of options for the masks they are recommending now. I think this delay was a screw up. There would have been no harm in having people wear mask, and it has been made political.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Eder said:


> Funny you defend police assaulting an old man not wearing a dust mask but defend a hoard of unmasked rioters threatening an old mans home.
> 
> I'll just shake my head and fly away here.


 Police officers that in force laws of Tyrants are seen as the face of Tyranny.
They should be very careful because when a line is crossed & people turn against the government. because that is when police will find themselves hunted by the people.


----------



## andrewf

Funny you criticize the police lawfully exercising police powers to remove a person from a private establishment, yet cheered a couple illegally threatening a crowd of people carelessly brandishing guns.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> Funny you criticize the police lawfully exercising police powers to remove a person from a private establishment, yet cheered a couple illegally threatening a crowd of people carelessly brandishing guns.


I'm not aware of that happening recently and being reported in the news.
Are you referring to the couple who defended themselves from a large trespassing mob in accordance with state law.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> ...
> 
> Though there were no N95s. There were lots of options for the masks they are recommending now. * I think this delay was a screw up. *There would have been no harm in having people wear mask, and it has been made political.


 ... but to be fair to the public health folks, they didn't know much about the virus itself and how infectious/deadly it can be.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> ... but to be fair to the public health folks, they didn't know much about the virus itself and how infectious/deadly it can be.


 They think they know but all they do is memorize & repeat the corrupt WHO


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... but to be fair to the public health folks, they didn't know much about the virus itself and how infectious/deadly it can be.


Its fair that new information is constantly found. However I don’t thinkthe message should have been not to wear masks. There was already research out on homemade masks for other viruses then. Even back then, it was known that mask worn properly would do no harm and most likely reduce the spread. Other countries stared promoting mask use well before any one issued statements.

Canada could have looked at other countries and seen what they were doing. That’s what I was doing And I am not a professional.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> They think they know but all they do is memorize & repeat the corrupt WHO


 ... so tell me which governing "expert" (health/medical) body do you should replace the WHO? The USA lead by the Dump? Or Canada lead by Junior? Or Russia lead by the ED? Or ... have your pick.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> Its fair that new information is constantly found. However I don’t thinkthe message should have been not to wear masks. There was already research out on homemade masks for other viruses then. Even back then, it was known that mask worn properly would do no harm and most likely reduce the spread. Other countries stared promoting mask use well before any one issued statements.
> 
> *Canada could have looked at other countries and seen what they were doing.* That’s what I was doing And I am not a professional.


 ... I think they were clouded by economical and political factors (i.e. missing/lack of N95 masks and their reservation strictly for hospital healthcare workers) and partly incompetency thrown in the mix (aka the screw up). I think this is what Canada is doing "correctly" now - observing other countries and taking the prudent protocols. It's too bad it has taken this long ... I guess better late than never. 

Besides, I think we Canadians are pretty bright bunch (with a few exceptions (the "Specials")) to figure out wearing masks "before" the government mandates.


----------



## sags

Watching what is happening in the US is frightening.

An emergency room doctor in Arizona was on CNN and said earlier in that day, they had to make a decision on which patients got treatment with the limited amount of equipment and drugs they have on hand. They even ration testing because they are short of swabs. Two patients died without being tested, because they were deemed too sick and other patients had a better chance of a good outcome. He said they make these decisions every day now. Those patients were NOT recorded as COVID deaths, even though they know they had the virus. They are sending patients home that have symptoms of virus like pneumonia, but they can only treat the worst cases. He said the number of COVID deaths is grossly under reported. They are also seeing a lot of younger people in emergency rooms and ICU units. They are very, very sick and may have permanent negative effects.

WTF..........in the most advanced and supposedly wealthiest country on earth and they can't get swabs or treat people ?

There is a hidden disaster going on in the US while the President golfs for the 264th time at a cost of $137,000,000 to taxpayers and Republican governors argue with city mayors over opening schools and mandatory masks.









Trump Golf Count


Trump Golf Count: Tracking President Trump's golf outings so you don't have to!




trumpgolfcount.com





It will only be known in future years what a catastrophe Trump has been. The point is.......we must protect ourselves and do what the experts say.


----------



## sags

My wife has some N95 masks from her nursing days. She wore one early in the pandemic when she went to the store or out somewhere in public.

After only a couple of hours, her face was all bruised and beaten up. You really wouldn't want to wear one of those all day. She is wearing a surgical mask now.


----------



## bgc_fan

Plugging Along said:


> Its fair that new information is constantly found. However I don’t thinkthe message should have been not to wear masks. There was already research out on homemade masks for other viruses then. Even back then, it was known that mask worn properly would do no harm and most likely reduce the spread. Other countries stared promoting mask use well before any one issued statements.


What is true is that there was no real scientific study done at that time either. It wouldn't have hurt to mention that non-medical masks would have provided some protection; however, given the hoarding that happened with hand sanitizer, and toilet paper, I can understand the logic behind not recommending people to wear masks as that would have stressed the supply chain.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... I think they were clouded by economical and political factors (i.e. missing/lack of N95 masks and their reservation strictly for hospital healthcare workers) and partly incompetency thrown in the mix (aka the screw up). I think this is what Canada is doing "correctly" now - observing other countries and taking the prudent protocols. It's too bad it has taken this long ... I guess better late than never.
> 
> Besides, I think we Canadians are pretty bright bunch (with a few exceptions (the "Specials")) to figure out wearing masks "before" the government mandates.


Except there are a lot of policies to block "fake" information on the internet.
This started as a well meaning defense against anti-vaxxers and such. 


However, when the Government, in this case the Canadian Government is putting out the false information, and they're the arbiters of what is "correct", we have a problem.
We're literally at the point where the governments and big tech want to censor "false" information, and they're literally lying and and spreading false information.
In some cases (like Chinas early response to COVID19) they were apparently suppressing and blocking the truth.

As far as who should run the WHO, I don't know.
How about we start by kicking out people who lie and withhold information?


I think we should have investigations to find out if anyone was knowingly spreading false information.
They should be immediately removed and prosecuted if appropriate.

If they simply "ought to have known" the information was false at the time they spread it, they should be given the option to step down.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Except there are a lot of policies to block "fake" information on the internet.
> This started as a well meaning defense against anti-vaxxers and such.
> 
> 
> However, when the Government, in this case the Canadian Government is putting out the false information, and they're the arbiters of what is "correct", we have a problem.
> We're literally at the point where the governments and big tech want to censor "false" information, and they're literally lying and and spreading false information.
> In some cases (like Chinas early response to COVID19) they were apparently suppressing and blocking the truth.
> 
> As far as who should run the WHO, I don't know.
> How about we start by kicking out people who lie and withhold information?
> 
> 
> I think we should have investigations to find out if anyone was knowingly spreading false information.
> They should be immediately removed and prosecuted if appropriate.
> 
> If they simply "ought to have known" the information was false at the time they spread it, they should be given the option to step down.


 ... sounds to me you're labelling the pandemic as false. Okay, your perogative.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> What is true is that there was no real scientific study done at that time either. It wouldn't have hurt to mention that non-medical masks would have provided some protection; however, given the hoarding that happened with hand sanitizer, and toilet paper, I can understand the logic behind not recommending people to wear masks as that would have stressed the supply chain.


I dispute this claim.
I believe that they had data suggesting masks and PPE would be effective. 

I do not believe that they had data suggesting masks and PPE would be ineffective.
Not only that, lacking specific data on this particular virus, we know that the spread of most communicable dieseases is slowed by PPE such as gloves, gowns and masks.


----------



## sags

If everyone wears a mask it lessens the threat, but it is still there.

Social distancing is an additional way to stay safe. Social distancing, wearing a mask, washing hands, and not creating situations where the virus can spread easily is the best course of action we have and must use it.

We must starve the virus for victims until we get a vaccine or better treatments.


----------



## sags

Some would suggest that for some unspecified reason the government and health officials deliberately put Canadians in harm's way.

I refuse to believe that would ever happen in Canada, and I think most Canadians would find the mere idea preposterous.

The proof is in the high marks Canadians give to government and health officials in handling the crisis.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I dispute this claim.
> *I believe that they had data suggesting masks and PPE would be effective.*
> 
> I do not believe that they had data suggesting masks and PPE would be ineffective.
> Not only that, lacking specific data on this particular virus, we know that the spread of most communicable dieseases is slowed by PPE such as gloves, gowns and masks.


 ... of course they did ... recall SARS? But this has become "political" due to lack of PPEs that Junior boondoggled on. And what use does it make to cry over spilled milk? 

Say hypothetically, Junior steps down - do you the Opposition leader will do better? Have more experience in this case? Hindsight always look clearer.

I think performance will be more less the same - with both hands in the cookies-jar first and foremost regardless of which party is charge.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... sounds to me you're labelling the pandemic as false. Okay, your perogative.


I don't see how you could say that, I've never even suggested that the pandemic was false, in fact I've been arguing that the response has been slow and insufficient to deal with the threat.


I'm pointing out a concern that.
1. Government of Canada lied.
2. Tech sites are working with Governments to block "false" information.

specific lies
1. China- They hid that there was a pandemic.
2. Canada - They said Travel restrictions are not effective
3. Canada- they said people should not wear masks.

Lie 1 most certainly cost lives.
Lie 2 also cost lives as it delayed our border closing.
Lie 3, well that was so obviously a lie I don't think people actually believed the government on this. Like come on, at the same time they were saying we don't need masks, they were freaking out because we didn't have masks.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> I dispute this claim.
> I believe that they had data suggesting masks and PPE would be effective.
> 
> I do not believe that they had data suggesting masks and PPE would be ineffective.
> Not only that, lacking specific data on this particular virus, we know that the spread of most communicable dieseases is slowed by PPE such as gloves, gowns and masks.


It's fine that you believe that. But the fact is I believe there was at most one study looking at effectiveness of masks for preventing viral transmissions before this year. If you can find some studies showing otherwise before 2020, please go ahead and post.

But, I'm assuming you were wearing masks at the beginning of the pandemic as you knew better right?


----------



## Longtimeago

Besides lack of supply availability, the other real issue with saying to wear a mask was and still is to a lesser degree, that people thought it would protect them from catching the virus. That belief leads to less adherence to the distancing measure. 

A mask protects others and distancing protects you.

As for 'lies', come on. The public would have gone into a major panic attack if they were told everything all at one time. The public have to be spoon fed and gradually brought up step by step. Even as it was, what was one of the first reactions of the public? Answer, to start panic buying things like toiliet paper, hand sanitizer, etc.

Even now, look at the continued reluctance of some people to wearing a mask to protect OTHERS. So what is happening, slowly but surely, municipality after municipality are making it mandatory. Gradually, rather than the federal government making it mandatory across Canada. 

I think you have to consider the psychology of how something like this has to be handled. You cannot simply slam all doors shut on day one even if you knew that was the best course of action from a health point of view. You have to build up public acceptance gradually.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... of course they did ... recall SARS? But this has become "political" due to lack of PPEs that Junior boondoggled on. And what use does it make to cry over spilled milk?
> 
> Say hypothetically, Junior steps down - do you the Opposition leader will do better? Have more experience in this case? Hindsight always look clearer.
> 
> I think performance will be more less the same - with both hands in the cookies-jar first and foremost regardless of which party is charge.


I know that, bcg_fan is the one saying there was no evidence.

If Trudeau steps down, Freeland will take over until the Liberals have a leadership contest.
Yes I think she will do better.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I don't see how you could say that, I've never even suggested that the pandemic was false,* in fact I've been arguing that the response has been slow and insufficient to deal with the threat. *


* ... *well, just say that instead all of the verbiage when we're just talking about the topic of "Use of Masks".



> I'm pointing out a concern that.
> 1. Government of Canada lied.
> 2. Tech sites are working with Governments to block "false" information.


 ... replies to your points:
1. What's new? Which government don't lie?
2. So do you deem that a bad thing? I mean you know the difference between "false" and "true" info?



> specific lies
> 1. China- They hid that there was a pandemic.
> 2. Canada - They said Travel restrictions are not effective
> 3. Canada- they said people should not wear masks.


 ... replies to:
1. They did try to hide it and "failed" o/w we wouldn't have a "pandemic". So what's your point here? You're not planning to move to China are you?
2. Not sure where this was stated. You would be more credible if you stated the travel "restrictions" were abysmmal.
3. Yes, early in the pandemic. But then you identified they "lie" so you wouldn't be so naive to believe in not wearing a mask, correct?



> Lie 1 most certainly cost lives.
> Lie 2 also cost lives as it delayed our border closing.
> Lie 3, well that was so obviously a lie I don't think people actually believed the government on this. Like come on, at the same time they were saying we don't need masks, they were freaking out because we didn't have masks.


 ....replies to:
1. Only you believe them "lies".
2. Agree as it can still potentially cost more lives - as our borders ain't completely "closed" either. Lying Americans are coming in and CBSAs are trying to do their jobs ... ineffectively still I'm afraid.
3. To give them the benefit of the doubt on the government's "lie" (very likely I don't disagree), they had to weigh on reserving the N95 masks for hospital healthcare workers versus the public hoarding/panicking to get the masks. 

Where they screwed-up is simply tell the public/Canadians to just get "cover-ups" so to avoid "speaking moistly" to prevent the spread of the virus from person to person, instead of making a scientific case of ineffectiveness of mask (still debating on this). 

And then to this day, there're those Special folks believing in wearing masks will kill them ... like that latest Covidiot at TimHortons refusing to wear a mask, only to be pepper-sprayed by the cops. Thank goodness, he wasn't in Ontario. I digress.


----------



## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... I think they were clouded by economical and political factors (i.e. missing/lack of N95 masks and their reservation strictly for hospital healthcare workers) and partly incompetency thrown in the mix (aka the screw up). I think this is what Canada is doing "correctly" now - observing other countries and taking the prudent protocols. It's too bad it has taken this long ... I guess better late than never.
> 
> Besides, I think we Canadians are pretty bright bunch (with a few exceptions (the "Specials")) to figure out wearing masks "before" the government mandates.


Wearing masks should have never been political and still shouldn't been. As for economics, there were countries that didn't shut down and kept the virus under control. We have friends and family in Asia. As early as January, they were starting to wear masks and shut down international travels. I had a copy of a safety protocol that was being down in their work in Singapore for travelers. Wearing masks was one of the protocols. They were one of the fast companies that bought a box of N95s for every employee at the time. As other countries are started to catch up in their supply chain, they continue to wear masks. I just had surgical masks sent to us from overseas. It took almost two months for it to arrive. 

Mask wearing was recommended a few months back in Canada, but many people are still not doing it, unless its mandated. There is a screw up from the government for saying not to wear masks, but there still needs to be a collective and individual responsibility for people to wear masks.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> I know that, bcg_fan is the one saying there was no evidence.
> 
> If Trudeau steps down, Freeland will take over until the Liberals have a leadership contest.
> *Yes I think she will do better.*


 ... on what basis? I think they're cut from the same cloth.


----------



## Beaver101

Plugging Along said:


> Wearing masks should have never been political and still shouldn't been.


 ... unfortunately, this is the real-world and when does politics not get into any aspects of life? 



> As for economics, there were countries that didn't shut down and kept the virus under control. We have friends and family in Asia. As early as January, they were starting to wear masks and shut down international travels. I had a copy of a safety protocol that was being down in their work in Singapore for travelers. Wearing masks was one of the protocols. They were one of the fast companies that bought a box of N95s for every employee at the time. As other countries are started to catch up in their supply chain, they continue to wear masks. I just had surgical masks sent to us from overseas. It took almost two months for it to arrive.


 ... typical Canadian complacency or cheapness? My workplace hasn't provided us with masks, let alone N95 or KN95 but did allow us to WAH. Early on, Canadian retail /frontline clerks didn't get masks either. They had to get their own if they were concerned enough.



> Mask wearing was recommended a few months back in Canada, but many people are still not doing it, unless its mandated. There is a screw up from the government for saying not to wear masks, but *there still needs to be a collective and individual responsibility for people to wear masks.*


 .. exactly and as I said Canadians are a pretty bright bunch to figure this out ... and then there those Special Invincible folks who don't believe in wearing masks as it infringe their rights.


----------



## sags

In my first post to start off the Coronavirus thread, which was 6 months ago when the pandemic broke out in China.

It appears the US knew of the pandemic as they closed their embassy and evacuated their staff.

If the pandemic was a "secret", a lot of people seemed to know about it and it was before there was a single case in Canada.

_*The coronavirus appears to be spreading very quickly. Hospitals in China are over capacity.

The US State Department has closed their embassy and is evacuating their diplomats and staff and other Americans who want to leave.

President Xi is warning of a dire situation as the virus is spreading faster than expected.*

There is a lot of activity underway.....they are building 2 new hospitals in a matter of weeks, quarantined millions of people, established checkpoints, banned travel, shut down the transportation system and many international brands such as McDonalds have closed their doors. _


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> * ... *well, just say that instead all of the verbiage when we're just talking about the topic of "Use of Masks".
> 
> ... replies to your points:
> 1. What's new? Which government don't lie?
> 2. So do you deem that a bad thing? I mean you know the difference between "false" and "true" info?
> 
> ... replies to:
> 1. They did try to hide it and "failed" o/w we wouldn't have a "pandemic". So what's your point here? You're not planning to move to China are you?
> 2. Not sure where this was stated. You would be more credible if you stated the travel "restrictions" were abysmmal.
> 3. Yes, early in the pandemic. But then you identified they "lie" so you wouldn't be so naive to believe in not wearing a mask, correct?
> 
> ....replies to:
> 1. Only you believe them "lies".
> 2. Agree as it can still potentially cost more lives - as our borders ain't completely "closed" either. Lying Americans are coming in and CBSAs are trying to do their jobs ... ineffectively still I'm afraid.
> 3. To give them the benefit of the doubt on the government's "lie" (very likely I don't disagree), they had to weight on reserving the N95 masks for hospital healthcare workers versus the public hoarding/panicking to get the masks. Where they screwed-up is simply tell the public/Canadians to just get "cover-ups" so to avoid "speaking moistly" to prevent the spread of the virus from person to person, instead of making a scientific case of ineffectiveness of mask (still debating on this). And then there're those Special folks believing in wearing masks will kill them ... like that latest Covidiot at TimHortons refusing to wear a mask, only to be pepper-sprayed by the cops. Thank goodness, he wasn't in Ontario.


It seems we basically agree.
I do think that the delays in getting the information out of China cost lives around the world.
This is why government censorship of Health information is problematic.
I listed that as an example, because it's one of the most blatant and problematic cases of government withholding infromation from the public.

Regarding the use of masks.
My point here is that it was a lie.
I'm not even arguing that on balance that such a recommendation was valid.

My concern is that the government is laying the foundations to block and censor any information they deem false. 
This is problematic to start with, but it is even more problematic when the government starts lying and censoring information that is true.

Imagine if Facebook censored posts and redirected to an authority, such as the Canadian Government, or the WHO.

For example.
Facebook is going to start telling you when you see false information about coronavirus

What about when they simply block information on Facebook & Twitter.

Think about it, COVID19 is out there, the information is out there.
What about other issues the governments deem harmful, or at least that their lies and misinformation is "for a good reason".
This is a very slippery slope.

You may dispute it, or reject it, but the reality I see is these "trusted authorities" have lied, tried to block information, and people died.

I do hope someone takes these officials up to be accountable.


----------



## sags

As to the Trudeau government sending China supplies.......yes they did, to prevent the virus from spreading globally.

China has since returned the favor by allowing Canada to set up a warehouse in China to buy, stock and ship supplies from China to Canada.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... on what basis? I think they're cut from the same cloth.


I agree that Freeland is similar to Trudeau, but from what I've heard she's intelligent and more respected by the other MPs. I'm not expecting anyone who supports Trudeau to be a paragon of virtue and intellect, but not laughably incompetent would be a nice step up.


----------



## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> It seems we basically agree.
> I do think that the delays in getting the information out of China cost lives around the world.
> This is why government censorship of Health information is problematic.
> I listed that as an example, because it's one of the most blatant and problematic cases of government withholding infromation from the public.
> 
> Regarding the use of masks.
> My point here is that it was a lie.
> I'm not even arguing that on balance that such a recommendation was valid.
> 
> My concern is that the government is laying the foundations to block and censor any information they deem false.
> This is problematic to start with, but it is even more problematic when the government starts lying and censoring information that is true.
> 
> Imagine if Facebook censored posts and redirected to an authority, such as the Canadian Government, or the WHO.
> 
> For example.
> Facebook is going to start telling you when you see false information about coronavirus
> 
> What about when they simply block information on Facebook & Twitter.
> 
> Think about it, COVID19 is out there, the information is out there.
> What about other issues the governments deem harmful, or at least that their lies and misinformation is "for a good reason".
> This is a very slippery slope.
> 
> You may dispute it, or reject it, but the reality I see is these "trusted authorities" have lied, tried to block information, and people died.


 ... I have to first state that there's a distinction between the information that the "government (ours)" and that of FaceBook & Twitter dissiminate. For a start, I would be more inclined to read into the government's info. With the latter I simply don't care for - there're plenty of other sources of info (or news) out there to access than FakeBook and wasting time reading 24/7 dumb twits.



> I do hope *someone takes these officials up to be accountable.*


 ... hate to break your bubble. It would take a true Messiah to do this ... and I ain't seeing one in Canada volunteering on doing this.


----------



## Plugging Along

bgc_fan said:


> What is true is that there was no real scientific study done at that time either. It wouldn't have hurt to mention that non-medical masks would have provided some protection; however, given the hoarding that happened with hand sanitizer, and toilet paper, I can understand the logic behind not recommending people to wear masks as that would have stressed the supply chain.



This is not totally true. This thread was posted in March. I had already been ordering masks and looking at homemade options well before then. Of course there were no studies on the effectiveness of homemade made on COVID specifically, however there were already studies and articles on cloth masks from SARS, and the flu. There were many studies then. Though not exact, there were indications mask even homemade one are a good idea. 

Sure things were messed up in supply chain. However, if recommendations where to get homemade masks, people could have found ways to have them made. My city had a local facebook group where volunteers made almost 50000 masks. There were supply issues then but like everything they work out. I think again, there will be a supply issue soon as cites mandate masks.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... I have to first state that there's a distinction between the information that the "government (ours)" and that of FaceBook & Twitter dissiminate. For a start, I would be more inclined to read into the government's info. With the latter I simply don't care for - there're plenty of other sources of info (or news) out there to access than FakeBook and wasting time reading 24/7 dumb twits.
> 
> ... hate to break your bubble. It would take a true Messiah to do this ... and I ain't seeing one in Canada volunteering on doing this.


My concern is that the Government has a proven history of lying.
They are building censorship into the tech companies.
They're bribing/suing media to control them.

That's the concern.


----------



## bgc_fan

Plugging Along said:


> This is not totally true. This thread was posted in March. I had already been ordering masks and looking at homemade options well before then. Of course there were no studies on the effectiveness of homemade made on COVID specifically, however there were already studies and articles on cloth masks from SARS, and the flu. There were many studies then. Though not exact, there were indications mask even homemade one are a good idea.


Not totally true is the nuance. There hadn't been any studies to prove the effectiveness because there are obvious ethical issues (purposely trying to infect someone to see if masks work). There are a number of surrogate studies where people will breath onto petri dishes with and without masks to see how much growth can occur, which can answer the question of how well masks prevent a person from spreading the virus. The question of the effectiveness of one wearing a mask for prevention when someone infected doesn't wear a mask isn't something that was actively studied.

There are a number of studies SINCE then. And that's the other nuance. My point is at the start, in Jan/Feb, when things were starting to spill over to Canada, there hadn't been much in the way of studies. There was really just anecdotal and "common sense" reasons to wear masks.

Another consideration is the discovery that people could spread COVID 19 without exhibiting symptoms (around April). At that point, recommendation of wearing masks should have came out because when it is all said and done, there are indications of the effectiveness of mask wearing to protect others, not necessarily to protect oneself. That's a distinction that people may miss.

Of course, try recommending or mandating that back then. What you end up getting is the same resistance we see now: "I'm healthy, why should I wear a mask?".

Canada also went into lockdown-mode to limit personal contact which also meant that masks weren't as high an issue when the general public are going out shopping once a week. Now that things are opening up, having mandatory masks will help mitigate. But given the rise in cases, you have to question how many are people refusing to wear masks, and those who are. This would just add another data point to the whole discussion.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Most people over their life time will have come in contact with flue & cold virus. The same will probably be true with the Corona virus. There is no way wearing a mask is going to help your body fight off Covid. Your body coughs for a reason. Wearing a mask is the worst things a person with the virus can do. Lower oxygen levels weakens the immune system. The virus is still going to get through the mask so will spread & wearing a mask will make the virus more deadly for the person wearing the mask. If like a cold everyone gets exposed to the virus telling people to wear a mask is just wrong.

Locking people in homes lowers immune system as well as not coming in contact with germs. Go out & spread germs strengthen the immune system Years ago I have read that during one of the pandemics years ago those that had a cold never caught the virus.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I dispute this claim.
> I believe that they had data suggesting masks and PPE would be effective.
> 
> I do not believe that they had data suggesting masks and PPE would be ineffective.
> Not only that, lacking specific data on this particular virus, we know that the spread of most communicable dieseases is slowed by PPE such as gloves, gowns and masks.


I think the fear was that masks are ineffective at _protecting the wearer, _particularly if they are untrained in how to wear PPE correctly. You see lots of people wearing masks incorrectly in public, touching them a lot, adjusting them, dropping them below their chin, etc. It seems likely that surgical masks are likely inadequate to protect the wearer, but they are effective at reducing the risk of spreading to others. This is how they are used in hospital settings in normal times. Surgeons etc. wear them to protect patients.

In retrospect, they should have suggested people wear cloth masks/face coverings to mutually protect each other. I think they discouraged mask use as a self-protective measure out of legitimate if somewhat motivated belief that they likely would not be effective in this way.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> In retrospect, they should have suggested people wear cloth masks/face coverings to mutually protect each other. I think they discouraged mask use as a self-protective measure out of legitimate if somewhat motivated belief that they likely would not be effective in this way.


I think the actual reason was much simpler.
There was a mask shortage, so they lied to try and help them get more masks into government hands.


----------



## andrewf

That was the 'somewhat motivated' part of my comment. Maybe they weren't lying, but it might have been confirmation bias, given their concern over PPE shortages.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> That was the 'somewhat motivated' part of my comment. Maybe they weren't lying, but it might have been confirmation bias, given their concern over PPE shortages.


With a pandemic that manifests primarily in the lungs, the likelihood that masks will offer a benefit is obvious.
They knew they weren't telling the truth.

Remember, when the government wants to censor you, truth is not a defence.


----------



## andrewf

How was government censoring anyone? Hyperbole...


----------



## Eclectic12

bgc_fan said:


> ... the fact is I believe there was at most one study looking at effectiveness of masks for preventing viral transmissions before this year. If you can find some studies showing otherwise before 2020, please go ahead and post ...


Hmmm ... either you used some really tight search parameters or you have a lot more free time than I do to dig into the details to find something in the study that is wrong.
Here are some studies that a quick search found.

*2009*
Surgical Mask vs N95 Respirator for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Workers A Randomized Trial

*2010*
Mathematical Modeling of the Effectiveness of Facemasks in Reducing the Spread of Novel Influenza A (H1N1)
Mask use, hand hygiene, and seasonal influenza-like illness among young adults: A randomized intervention trial
Does That Face Mask Really Protect You?

*2011*
Pilot Randomised Controlled Trial to Test Effectiveness of Facemasks in Preventing Influenza-like Illness Transmission among Australian Hajj Pilgrims in 2011

*2013*
Effectiveness of surgical masks against influenza bioaerosols
Influenza Virus Aerosols in Human Exhaled Breath: Particle Size, Culturability, and Effect of Surgical Masks

*2015*
A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks comopared with medical masks in healthcare workers


There seems to be several that say that the range of ineffective to most effective is no mask, cloth mask, surgical mask, N95 mask then respirator. Lots of "more study is needed" but I can only recall one of study of the many more I scanned through claiming masks were ineffective. 


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

bgc_fan said:


> Not totally true is the nuance. There hadn't been any studies to prove the effectiveness because there are obvious ethical issues (purposely trying to infect someone to see if masks work). There are a number of surrogate studies where people will breath onto petri dishes with and without masks to see how much growth can occur, which can answer the question of how well masks prevent a person from spreading the virus. The question of the effectiveness of one wearing a mask for prevention when someone infected doesn't wear a mask isn't something that was actively studied ...


Not quite ... some of the studies google found looked at those with SARs in Hong Kong? hospitals where some of the health care workers washed their hands, some wore masks of different types, some did multiple prevention things and all were exposed. Not the nice clean randomised study with purposeful infections but with different degrees of protection and exposure.


Cheers


----------



## bgc_fan

Eclectic12 said:


> Hmmm ... either you used some really tight search parameters or you have a lot more free time than I do to dig into the details to find something in the study that is wrong.
> Here are some studies that a quick search found.
> 
> *2009*
> Surgical Mask vs N95 Respirator for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Workers A Randomized Trial
> 
> *2010*
> Mathematical Modeling of the Effectiveness of Facemasks in Reducing the Spread of Novel Influenza A (H1N1)
> Mask use, hand hygiene, and seasonal influenza-like illness among young adults: A randomized intervention trial
> Does That Face Mask Really Protect You?
> 
> *2011*
> Pilot Randomised Controlled Trial to Test Effectiveness of Facemasks in Preventing Influenza-like Illness Transmission among Australian Hajj Pilgrims in 2011
> 
> *2013*
> Effectiveness of surgical masks against influenza bioaerosols
> Influenza Virus Aerosols in Human Exhaled Breath: Particle Size, Culturability, and Effect of Surgical Masks
> 
> *2015*
> A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks comopared with medical masks in healthcare workers
> 
> 
> There seems to be several that say that the range of ineffective to most effective is no mask, cloth mask, surgical mask, N95 mask then respirator. Lots of "more study is needed" but I can only recall one of study of the many more I scanned through claiming masks were ineffective.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Thanks. At the time I didn't do an extensive research into it, and the cursory search I did, resulted in very little.

A couple of quick notes (not to be argumentative, just for discussion), from a quick overview:

First paper is a little worrisome or good news, depending on your POV. Both surgical mask and N95 provide the same amount of protection with 23% infection for routine exposure.
Second paper is just a mathematical modeling of infection spread based on an assumption of mask effectiveness. It also provides different modeling based on the percentage of population wearing masks. A bit of interest if people are wondering what the difference of rate of infection spread based on mask wearing compliance.
Third is interesting, although they did state some problematic issues, i.e. spring break occurred during the middle of the study so there was no way to check if people were following protocol, and it was primarily self-reporting.
Fourth was a particle penetration test with aerosol particles and the results aren't great: N95 (89.6% efficiency), Bandana (11.3%), Preshaped mask (6.1%), Surgical (33.3%).
Fifth is an interesting setup, and they show a decrease from 53% to 31% of people developing symptoms when wearing masks, though purposely having people with symptoms sleep next to people who don't doesn't strike me as the most ethical research, but whatever.
Sixth is behind a paywall, but the summary is similar to the fourth paper which is a penetration test, finding an average decrease of 6-fold in virus particles behind the mask. Whether that is sufficient to prevent to illness is not really known. But it would lead to the point that prolonged exposure (i.e. hospital setting) may lead to infection, although it also means it would reduce the general viral load.
Seventh discusses effectiveness for transmission if worn by infected, so not quite a study on protection for those who aren't.
That last one is pretty much saying that cloth masks were ineffective.

What I find interesting is that a few of papers do point out that previous ones were inconclusive, so it doesn't seem that there was a consensus.


----------



## bgc_fan

Thought this is relevant. There has been talk about the effectiveness of face shields. 
Face shields did not protect people from the coronavirus in an outbreak in Switzerland, but masks did, health officials say


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> How was government censoring anyone? Hyperbole...


No, logical outcome.

1. The government of Canada has spread misinformation regarding the COVID19 pandemic.
2. The government of Canada is trying to pass laws to criminalize disinformation.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-misinformation-disinformation-law-1.5532325

Now, lets say you are saying you are saying the truth, and the government spreading misinformation.
They will accuse you of being a criminal, and use that as an excuse to shut you down.
Isn't that terrifying? Disagreeing with the Government position on an issue could be a criminal offense? That's INSANE!


This is EXACTLY what happened in China.
1. Doctors attempted to dissemination early data on COVID19
2. Government shut them down under their censorship (security and health) laws.

The Government of Canada is trying to give themselves the power to shut down dissenting views.
Just because you happen to like the dictator today, is no guarantee you'll like the dictator tomorrow.


----------



## andrewf

"knowingly spreading misinformation that could harm people". I doubt advice to use masks would have fallen under that, except in the absolute broadest sense of 'harm people' (indirectly by causing PPE shortage).

Saying that it is caused by 4G towers might...

Regardless, I don't agree with the law and I think it is a bad idea. It is absurd to conflate censorship in China with Canada.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> "knowingly spreading misinformation that could harm people". I doubt advice to use masks would have fallen under that, except in the absolute broadest sense of 'harm people' (indirectly by causing PPE shortage).
> 
> Saying that it is caused by 4G towers might...
> 
> Regardless, I don't agree with the law and I think it is a bad idea. It is absurd to conflate censorship in China with Canada.


You're missing the point.
The Government is giving themselves the tool to censor and criminalize your ability to share facts.

I'm just listing a specific, recent example where the official Government of Canada position was the falsehood. 
What if there are other points they're lying about, or the next issue when they decide to lie.

Remember Dr Tam said travel restrictions don't work. That is a falsehood that cost lives. 
People are dead because the Government of Canada decided to go with a lie, and they want to criminalize your ability to say the truth. That should terrify you.

Imagine if Trump had the ability to criminalize "misinformation" that went against the official White House position on COVID19. Don't you see how terrifyingly dangerous that is?


----------



## Longtimeago

Meanwhile, the number of new daily cases in Canada overall is going up again. People are taking their eye off the ball in regards to maintaining the basics of prevention of spread. 

With the media focusing on the mask issue, WE scandal, etc. etc. and spending almost zero time on the virus and what is happening or on urging people to continue to keep their distance, stay home if possible, avoid as many interactions as possible. 

For example, have you seen any media talking heads asking, 'why are so many people going back to entering a supermarket several times a week instead of once a week. Do they not know they are increasing the risk to everyone by doing so? Get back to basics.'


----------



## Beaver101

^ I'm afraid you're sounding like a broken record here. Or worst yet, the Special Invincible people will continue to be deaf & blind tone to your posts/advice.


----------



## Longtimeago

Beaver101 said:


> ^ I'm afraid you're sounding like a broken record here. Or worst yet, the Special Invincible people will continue to be deaf & blind tone to your posts/advice.


Yes, no doubt that is the case. There is no shortage of stupid people in the world including here in Canada.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Yeah, it appears that the attention span of Canadians is very short indeed. I tend to like to see my enemy dead, lying on the ground, with no pulse, no discernible breathing and preferably a little stiff and cold, before I turn my back on them. Especially the dangerous ones. I guess for most others, if they are toasting a cold beer with some friends and the virus is out of mind they must think it is now dead and harmless. Why, just because they are getting tired of the fight???. Who knows.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> Yeah, it appears that the attention span of Canadians is very short indeed. I tend to like to see my enemy dead, lying on the ground, with no pulse, no discernible breathing and preferably a little stiff and cold, before I turn my back on them. Especially the dangerous ones. I guess for most others, if they are toasting a cold beer with some friends and the virus is out of mind they must think it is now dead and harmless. Why, just because they are getting tired of the fight???. Who knows.


People are apparently unwilling to make sacrifices or suffer inconveniences. The fact people are going out to have beers in restaurants is just SHOCKING to me and I can't believe the government allows this. I can walk on the street, look into bars, and see huge groups of young adults socializing, drunk, in enclosed spaces and clearly yelling & spitting at each other.

They want to act like nothing has happened. Or they are aware of COVID-19 but don't want to make any sacrifices themselves.

Canadians will have to learn how to make sacrifices in their lifestyles. If they can't do it on their own, the government will (and should) force them to make those sacrifices.

Too many entitled people, too many people who think they deserve normalcy and who can't stand being inconvenienced.

IMO all bars, restaurants, night clubs should be shut down to inside dining and entertainment, full stop. The police should start aggressively fining violations of this. Currently there is just about no enforcement.

And if 20-something young people are bored, and can't stand not having parties? Too bad ... you'll get used to it. And the great news is that once COVID-19 is done you still have another 60 years of your life to drink and socialize all you want. I can tell you that once this is over, I'm going to Las Vegas to party it up. These aren't life long sacrifices, we're demanding short term sacrifices from everyone.


----------



## MrMatt

I think it really matters what the infection rate in the area is. Large portions of the country are effectively COVID free.

I think, back in March, they should have been much more aggressive in the lockdown, mandated masks etc back then.
But they didn't. 

Honestly I think people are frustrated and annoyed, we have a government that wasn't taking COVID19 seriously, and that attitude has spread to the people.

For me, I realized it was a joke when Trudeau personally went to join in protests.


----------



## Andysalman67

however, don't you think that government knows better whether there are places in hospitals and whether there is risk at all, I guess, situation is totally under control, everyone is getting fed up with all this covid stuff...


----------



## Eder

MrMatt said:


> .
> 
> For me, I realized it was a joke when Trudeau personally went to join in protests.


I think the rest of us did as well.


----------



## leoc2

I feel sorry for the active military members who are willing to endanger themselves to protect our rights and freedoms. They must watch the nightly news back in Canada (or USA) to see no sacrifice by local citizens to wear masks and social distance. ugh massive let down!


----------



## Eder

I think our military feel let down by the lack of fiscal support by this government. Don't forget JT told vets that he wanted to help them but the cupboard was bare...a few montys later he's writing 8 billion dollar checks to students and giving millions to his cronies.


----------



## agent99

It's quite disappointing to read some of the views that CMF members, who otherwise seem intelligent, post here. This is not about politics. This is seriously about life or death. Our country responded well and we are in a much better situation than most. Let's keep it that way and not go the way our neighbors.


----------



## :) lonewolf

leoc2 said:


> I feel sorry for the active military members who are willing to endanger themselves to protect our rights and freedoms. They must watch the nightly news back in Canada (or USA) to see no sacrifice by local citizens to wear masks and social distance. ugh massive let down!


 I feel sorry for the military members who lost their life to government tyrants fighting for our freedoms. They are rolling in their graves disgusted with us giving up our freedoms so easily. People on this site even want the tyrants to baby sit them. The whole COVID thing is BS. They are murdering people over politics & climate change.

People have been tested for antibodies for Covid & were not tested for Covid have tests come back that they have Covid when they were not even tested for Covid. People have signed up to get tested for Covid & the line was too long so they leave never getting tests. They then are told they have Covid. Go to the hospital in the US the first thing they test for is Covid. The hospitals get paid extra money for treating Covid. So everyone has Covid weather they do or not. They are not using ventilators properly causing death. If you die in a car accident or have a heart attack death is from Covid.

There are climate change people that are doing what ever they can to destroy the economy. Nationalize large corporations destroy the middle class.


----------



## :) lonewolf

agent99 said:


> It's quite disappointing to read some of the views that CMF members, who otherwise seem intelligent, post here. This is not about politics. This is seriously about life or death. Our country responded well and we are in a much better situation than most. Let's keep it that way and not go the way our neighbors.


 It is about politics & climate change. Why do you think the numbers are the worst in the US when the globalists want to get rid of Trump so bad. Watch CNN they hate Trump more then they love their country.


----------



## MrMatt

agent99 said:


> It's quite disappointing to read some of the views that CMF members, who otherwise seem intelligent, post here. This is not about politics. This is seriously about life or death. Our country responded well and we are in a much better situation than most. Let's keep it that way and not go the way our neighbors.


It's totally about politics, that's the point.

We have a public health crisis, but the Trudeau Liberals are sitting there playing politics, lying, breaking multiple health guidelines, trying to seize power and give handouts to his friends and family.

It would be nice if they could cut out the political crap and do their job, but they don't.
At least it's not as messy as the US.


----------



## agent99

It would be nice if you and some others here could cut out the political crap

Just try and recognize that things in Canada are a lot better than most, maybe all, other countries out there of similar size.


----------



## :) lonewolf

MrMatt said:


> You're missing the point.
> The Government is giving themselves the tool to censor and criminalize your ability to share facts.
> 
> I'm just listing a specific, recent example where the official Government of Canada position was the falsehood.
> What if there are other points they're lying about, or the next issue when they decide to lie.
> 
> Remember Dr Tam said travel restrictions don't work. That is a falsehood that cost lives.
> People are dead because the Government of Canada decided to go with a lie, and they want to criminalize your ability to say the truth. That should terrify you.
> 
> Imagine if Trump had the ability to criminalize "misinformation" that went against the official White House position on COVID19. Don't you see how terrifyingly dangerous that is?


 This is a financial site & those playing the market have a better chance of winning if they understand human nature. It seams few on this site understand human nature. They do not seam to realize how people power trip & get power hungry when they are given a bit of power. These guys think the can control the temp of the earth LOL & they are doing more damage by trying to control a cold virus then the virus can do by itself.

They put limits on the use of stem cells when the limits should be on vaccine & the study of virus. Mad men in power will kill more then any virus


----------



## MrMatt

agent99 said:


> It would be nice if you and some others here could cut out the political crap
> 
> Just try and recognize that things in Canada are a lot better than most, maybe all, other countries out there of similar size.


I agree, actually I think Canada is honestly better than most.
However I find it very disheartening when I see people and political leaders working to destroy this country. 

I was in the military, I know many others who are/were, and I know many veterans, including some who didn't make it back, or live with permanent injuries.
I think of their sacrifices, then see the selfish people trying to destroy what took generations to build, and it makes me sick. 
I think the people trying to destroy my country should go and learn what happens when these structures aren't there.


----------



## Longtimeago

Here is my question for everyone reading this thread. Please answer it for me.

Are YOU or are YOU not wearing a mask when you go out and interact with other people? Yes or No?

At this point, I think everyone should be answering yes and THAT is what this thread is about, 'use of masks'.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> Are YOU or are YOU not wearing a mask when you go out and interact with other people? Yes or No?


No


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> I'm just listing a specific, recent example where the official Government of Canada position was the falsehood.
> What if there are other points they're lying about, or the next issue when they decide to lie.
> 
> Remember Dr Tam said travel restrictions don't work. That is a falsehood that cost lives.
> People are dead because the Government of Canada decided to go with a lie, and they want to criminalize your ability to say the truth. That should terrify you.


I think there is a big difference between misinformation or changing information verses lying. Though I totally believe the borders should have been closed earlier, and travel


Longtimeago said:


> Here is my question for everyone reading this thread. Please answer it for me.
> 
> Are YOU or are YOU not wearing a mask when you go out and interact with other people? Yes or No?
> 
> At this point, I think everyone should be answering yes and THAT is what this thread is about, 'use of masks'.


Absolutely when inside and whenever outside if we can’t maintain distance. We have masks in every vehicle and there is a going out kit that is at the door. 
I offer masks to anyone that thinks they need to come near me. I am working on trying to get masks into my kids school and any of their indoor activities where possible. 

So yes. I don’t know why this is so difficult for people to understand.


----------



## MrMatt

Plugging Along said:


> I think there is a big difference between misinformation or changing information verses lying. Though I totally believe the borders should have been closed earlier, and travel


I agree.
Changing information is fine.
Unintentional misinformation is regrettable, but I don't make a moral judgement here.
Misinformation through negligence, ie not checking the facts, is unprofessional, and I think this is where those acting in an official expert capacity have some culpability.
Intentionally spreading information that you know is false is lying. That is why I used the word lying. In the case where you knew this could kill people, I think it rises to the level of negligence or professional misconduct.


----------



## andrewf

Longtimeago said:


> Here is my question for everyone reading this thread. Please answer it for me.
> 
> Are YOU or are YOU not wearing a mask when you go out and interact with other people? Yes or No?
> 
> At this point, I think everyone should be answering yes and THAT is what this thread is about, 'use of masks'.


In public, yes. Mask wearing is mandatory in my area in public places. With family, no.


----------



## Beaver101

Yes everywhere outside of home ... on public transit, supermarkets, pharmacies, doctor's office, etc. Masks are currently required and mandated by the city of TO in all public areas as well as private establishments. Signs are posted in front of virtually all these establishments, stating masks required prior to entering.

I wear them whilst walking on the street as it's a PITA to have to put them back on after taking them off ... especially an N95 one (which I saved from the SARs' days btw). Once that one breaks or wear out, I'll replace it with the lighter non-surgical masks. Now debating on making my own.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> It's quite disappointing to read some of the views that CMF members, who otherwise seem intelligent, post here. This is not about politics. This is seriously about life or death. Our country responded well and we are in a much better situation than most. Let's keep it that way and not go the way our neighbors.


Agree 100%


----------



## AltaRed

I have not bothered to read recent pages in this thread but it clearly has gone off the rails with some really dumb shite. Clearly from the perspective of provincial health officers and any degree of common sense, it is pretty clear the latest uptick in covid cases is being caused by lack of physical distancing and lack of use of masks. If we don't want to backtrack into a new Phase 2, it seems to me to be an absolute no brainer to wear a mask in enclosed spaces.

The very recent large uptick of covid cases in BC tourist places is due to lack of discipline in group size and physical distancing/non-mask wearing. That selfishness and lack of consideration is now costing businesses foot traffic and interruptions in service having to shut down for a few days at a time due to covid cases. After a quiet June, the Okanagan and the Kelowna area in particular is seeing a surge in cases. I have taken to wearing a mask far more often the past few weeks than I have ever been. C'est la vie.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> Yes everywhere outside of home ... on public transit, supermarkets, pharmacies, doctor's office, etc. Masks are currently required and mandated by the city of TO in all public areas as well as private establishments. Signs are posted in front of virtually all these establishments, stating masks required prior to entering.
> 
> I wear them whilst walking on the street as it's a PITA to have to put them back on after taking them off ... especially an N95 one (which I saved from the SARs' days btw). Once that one breaks or wear out, I'll replace it with the lighter non-surgical masks. Now debating on making my own.


I've got a stack of masks, I use them for any woodwork etc.
I actually have a proper respirator for spray painting too.


----------



## Eder

Say no more.


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> View attachment 20393
> 
> 
> Say no more.


Empty stadium, sitting with people presumably in their social bubble. Nothing more needed to be said.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Eder said:


> View attachment 20393
> 
> 
> Say no more.


 Payed by Gates to tell everyone to stay locked up in their homes


----------



## andrewf

:) lonewolf said:


> Payed by Gates to tell everyone to stay locked up in their homes


^ Paid by Russia to be an agitator on the internet. I have as much proof as you.


----------



## Beaver101

^


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> ^ Paid by Russia to be an agitator on the internet. I have as much proof as you.


Did Bill Gates Buy the CDC? | Armstrong Economics


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> ^ Paid by Russia to be an agitator on the internet. I have as much proof as you.


Gates & Fauci Conspiracy | Armstrong Economics


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> ^ Paid by Russia to be an agitator on the internet. I have as much proof as you.


Fauci has Been Mingling with the Elite for a Long Time | Armstrong Economics


----------



## :) lonewolf

andrewf said:


> ^ Paid by Russia to be an agitator on the internet. I have as much proof as you.


Robert Kennedy Jr & Ron Paul Come Out Against Fauci & Gates | Armstrong Economics


----------



## sags

How do you get a writing job at Armstrong Economics ? I can make stuff up all day long.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> Paid by Russia to be an agitator on the internet. I have as much proof as you.





sags said:


> How do you get a writing job at Armstrong Economics ? I can make stuff up all day long.


I believe andrewf already posted a theory on that (see above)


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> How do you get a writing job at Armstrong Economics ? I can make stuff up all day long.


Blind to the truth to see something is wrong.

7.8 billion people on earth. Over inflated death counts using motor cycle accidents, gun shot wounds, heart attacks etc & the number of deaths is so low there was no need to lock everyone down & have us wear masks.

Fear fear fear your not thinking straight.


----------



## :) lonewolf

cainvest said:


> I believe andrewf already posted a theory on that (see above)


The Russians were smart enough to ban your puppet master Bill Gates. CNN says Russia influences their elections in favor of Trump winning. There is no way Russia could influence the out come of elections to the degree of CNN with their hate for Trump.


----------



## :) lonewolf

The above link did not take though can view a video that shows how well masks dont work by googling demonstrating how well masks work by Ted Noel


----------



## :) lonewolf

Bring back freedom & liberty

Mandatory mask requirement does not over ride exemption 22 
No prove needed to claim exemption 22


----------



## calm

A passenger covered by a plastic bag while flying on a plane. (Dislikes flying over cemeteries too,)
Shows fellow passengers straining over their seats to get a look.


https://i.hurimg.com/i/hdn/75/0x0/59c79d3e45d2a027e83af134.jpg


----------



## Longtimeago

JakekeKe9 said:


> It is important to use them, no way


LOL, is that a positive or a negative comment JakekeKe9? Are you in favour of wearing a mask or not?

I see you are in the UK. You are not doing well at all if you are in England. Scotland is doing much better.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> LOL, is that a positive or a negative comment JakekeKe9? Are you in favour of wearing a mask or not?
> 
> I see you are in the UK. You are not doing well at all if you are in England. Scotland is doing much better.


They were smart to have breaken away form The EU.
Canada needs to break away from the UN as well as WHO & 

Why are tax payers paying for level 4 hazmask suits for level 4 virus labs when a mask could be used ?


----------



## like_to_retire

Longtimeago said:


> LOL, is that a positive or a negative comment JakekeKe9? Are you in favour of wearing a mask or not?
> 
> I see you are in the UK. You are not doing well at all if you are in England. Scotland is doing much better.


Dude, do you not recognize a scammer? Come on.............

ltr


----------



## :) lonewolf

like_to_retire said:


> Dude, do you not recognize a scammer? Come on.............
> 
> ltr


Just because he does not share your same view regarding masks does not mean he is a scammer.


----------



## like_to_retire

:) lonewolf said:


> Just because he does not share your same view regarding masks does not mean he is a scammer.


Yeah, that's why the account has been deleted...................


----------



## Longtimeago

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah, that's why the account has been deleted...................


Now how do we get lonewolf deleted? I've yet to see him post one even nearly sensible comment.


----------



## Beaver101

^ You can't. You can ** try very hard*_ *_ to get him banned for posting stuffs you consider as not making sense to you but perfectly for him.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> Now how do we get lonewolf deleted? I've yet to see him post one even nearly sensible comment.


The ignore feature is awesome


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> Now how do we get lonewolf deleted? I've yet to see him post one even nearly sensible comment.


When I go to the library or a book store I look for books that are different then most since it shows the author has been thinking. When I walked into chapters near the Nasdaq market top in 2000 all or perhaps close to all the books were bullish on the stock market. Plus the section had grown a lot larger. To me it signaled a major top. Those that read those books & followed got their just reward.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> The ignore feature is awesome


No, that's just putting your head in the sand.

If you can't listen to all opinions, then you only want to hear those that agree with you. 

I suppose that's a safe place to be, but it doesn't further anyone's education of how others think.

If you read and disagree with an opinion, then accept it as education and offer an alternative opinion.

I am often shocked at the opinions of others on this forum, but glad to have read those thoughts. If I _ignored_ every person that didn't agree with me, it wouldn't be much of a forum......

ltr


----------



## :) lonewolf

sags said:


> How do you get a writing job at Armstrong Economics ? I can make stuff up all day long.


 Sags your good though nothing is as good as the truth


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> No, that's just putting your head in the sand.
> 
> If you can't listen to all opinions, then you only want to hear those that agree with you.
> 
> I suppose that's a safe place to be, but it doesn't further anyone's education of how others think.
> 
> If you read and disagree with an opinion, then accept it as education and offer an alternative opinion.
> 
> I am often shocked at the opinions of others on this forum, but glad to have read those thoughts. If I _ignored_ every person that didn't agree with me, it wouldn't be much of a forum......
> 
> ltr


I just put calm on ignore, he/she makes wild claims, and has clearly explicitly refused to support them and stated as such. I consider them a troll and I'm ignoring them.

I've even taken sags off ignore.

Politically I nearly completely disagree with James4beach, and he generally fails to support his claims. However occasionally an attempt is made. I haven't ignored him yet.

I have no problem with opposing opinions, I would like it if they were considered and supported by evidence, but typically on political items that simply isn't the case.


----------



## like_to_retire

MrMatt said:


> I just put calm on ignore, he/she makes wild claims, and has clearly explicitly refused to support them and stated as such. I consider them a troll and I'm ignoring them.
> 
> I've even taken sags off ignore.
> 
> Politically I nearly completely disagree with James4beach, and he generally fails to support his claims. However occasionally an attempt is made. I haven't ignored him yet.
> 
> I have no problem with opposing opinions, I would like it if they were considered and supported by evidence, but typically on political items that simply isn't the case.


My feeling is that if someone is breaking the rules of conduct they will be removed immediately, as I see it happen all the time.

That leaves those that disagree with my opinion. Why would I ignore them?

Mr. Matt, fact is, I usually agree with about 100% of your opinions, but I can't support ignoring those that don't have all the evidence. That appears to be your reason to click ignore. I think we should listen to everyone's opinion, even if we think it's crazy.

Know thine enemy......................

ltr


----------



## MrMatt

like_to_retire said:


> That leaves those that disagree with my opinion. Why would I ignore them?
> 
> Mr. Matt, fact is, I usually agree with about 100% of your opinions, but I can't support ignoring those that don't have all the evidence. That appears to be your reason to click ignore. I think we should listen to everyone's opinion, even if we think it's crazy.


It's not that they disagree with my opinion. It's that they're wasting my time, it's not worth the mental energy to read their posts.
It's not "all the evidence", it's some, or at least an attempt.
If someone is going to make obviously false statements, and *not even try* to substantiate them, why bother? 

I'd love it if there was someone who could argue some of this crazy stuff in a coherent manner, but quite simply they're hard to find. Once they get logical and informed, they invariable "drift right".


----------



## james4beach

I just about always post the sources along with my claims, but people who've already made up their minds just ignore what I post.


----------



## sags

_Once they get logical and informed, they invariable "drift right". _

LOL........You assume that right wing views should naturally prevail even though they are the views of a small and disappearing minority of people.

Conservatives capture about 30% of the votes and the number is declining. Liberals and more progressive parties capture 70% of the vote.

The writing is on the wall for conservatives and I am of the belief that some years into the future the only place to see one will be in a museum.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I just about always post the sources along with my claims, but people who've already made up their minds just ignore what I post.


You rarely back up your claims, still waiting for the unidentified police in Portland.
Even the judge agreed there was no evidence of this happening.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> _Once they get logical and informed, they invariable "drift right". _
> 
> LOL........You assume that right wing views should naturally prevail even though they are the views of a small and disappearing minority of people.
> 
> Conservatives capture about 30% of the votes and the number is declining. Liberals and more progressive parties capture 70% of the vote.
> 
> The writing is on the wall for conservatives and I am of the belief that some years into the future the only place to see one will be in a museum.


I didn't say that they should prevail, just that once educated on issues, people tend to shift to a more liberal right wing viewpoint. The "progressive" left wing ideology is simply broken and unethical.

It's just been my observation that if you get informed on issues, you'll generally shift right, or at least get called right wing by the lefties.
That's why leftists are so scared of facts or "right wing" news.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I just put calm on ignore, he/she makes wild claims, and has clearly explicitly refused to support them and stated as such. I consider them a troll and I'm ignoring them.
> 
> I've even taken sags off ignore.
> 
> Politically I nearly completely disagree with James4beach, and he generally fails to support his claims. However occasionally an attempt is made. I haven't ignored him yet.
> 
> I have no problem with opposing opinions, I would like it if they were considered and supported by evidence, but typically on political items that simply isn't the case.


My ignore list is calm and lonewolf. They feel like two sides of the same coin. I think both are fairly guilty of just copy-pasting ideological ravings from the dark corners of the internet.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> I didn't say that they should prevail, just that once educated on issues, people tend to shift to a more liberal right wing viewpoint. The "progressive" left wing ideology is simply broken and unethical.
> 
> It's just been my observation that if you get informed on issues, you'll generally shift right, or at least get called right wing by the lefties.
> That's why leftists are so scared of facts or "right wing" news.


This might be a bit of confirmation bias. More educated people tend to lean left/liberal.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> You rarely back up your claims, still waiting for the unidentified police in Portland.
> Even the judge agreed there was no evidence of this happening.


Actually, your MO seems to be that you're aware of my sources (when I post references). You probably even read them.

Then even after I post them, you repeat your assertion that I don't back up my claims.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Actually, your MO seems to be that you're aware of my sources (when I post references). You probably even read them.
> 
> Then even after I post them, you repeat your assertion that I don't back up my claims.


I'm aware of them, in some cases they're already discredited.

You post links, but they actually aren't evidence of what you claim. 
I think you REALLY want to believe what's being told to you. So much that you don't realize that your documentation doesn't support your claim.

lets look at a recent example.
The "unidentified" police, who were in full CPB uniform. With CPB patches.
See screenshot, I didn't even bother marking the POLICE shown on a different angle.


----------



## MrMatt

andrewf said:


> This might be a bit of confirmation bias. More educated people tend to lean left/liberal.


People with more school education in certain areas tend to lean left/liberal.
But quite honestly it takes a certain amount of "education" and mental gymnastics to simultaneously claim mutually contradictory facts.
The level of cognitive dissonance is ridiculous.

But once you understand history and how things work, you realize how important democratic institution are and you want to preserve them.
Or you realize how socialism can't work without serious infringement on personal freedoms Or why printing lots of money will cause inflation, or why too much inflation is a bad thing.
If you're not educated on these ideas, the left wing ideology is appealing.

Also the left isn't liberal, most specifically they are literally arguing against the primary concepts in the definition.
*Liberalism* is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. << Today those are most certainly Center/Conservative views.

Identity politics is an attack on Liberalism, it's sad we have to fight for equality again.


----------



## Longtimeago

The mistake is in thinking that you can debate someone who does not know how to debate. They state something as a fact and IF it were a fact, then obviously, it is not debatable. But what they are really stating is an OPINION which of course is debatable. 

But when someone thinks they can debate that opinion, they don't realize the person did not state it as an opinion. They stated it as a fact and facts are not debatable, only deniable.

I just watched Smerconish this morning and his question was should Biden debate Trump. One commentator said basically what I am saying here. Biden should not debate Trump because Trump does not debate, he simply states lies as facts and that leaves the other person having to just correct him all the time rather than DEBATING anything. It allows the person, Trump or Lonewolf or whoever, simply an opportunity to repeat the lies over and over and changes nothing. A total waste of time.

For those saying it is good to hear other opinions contrary to your own, I agree. WHEN it is a contrary OPINION stated as such by someone willing to engage in a discussion/debate and argue their point with logic. When it is simply someone spouting nonsense repeatedly, there is nothing to debate.


----------



## kcowan

I have lonewolf on ignore. And sags. I note that calm seems to be a reincaration of sags.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> The mistake is in thinking that you can debate someone who does not know how to debate. They state something as a fact and IF it were a fact, then obviously, it is not debatable. But what they are really stating is an OPINION which of course is debatable.
> 
> But when someone thinks they can debate that opinion, they don't realize the person did not state it as an opinion. They stated it as a fact and facts are not debatable, only deniable.
> 
> I just watched Smerconish this morning and his question was should Biden debate Trump. One commentator said basically what I am saying here. Biden should not debate Trump because Trump does not debate, he simply states lies as facts and that leaves the other person having to just correct him all the time rather than DEBATING anything. It allows the person, Trump or Lonewolf or whoever, simply an opportunity to repeat the lies over and over and changes nothing. A total waste of time.
> 
> For those saying it is good to hear other opinions contrary to your own, I agree. WHEN it is a contrary OPINION stated as such by someone willing to engage in a discussion/debate and argue their point with logic. When it is simply someone spouting nonsense repeatedly, there is nothing to debate.


I agree, I'm still holding out hope that some will understand the difference.

The next issue is definitions, a common tactic is to use one word or term to mean a number of things that varies on the context, and that the word itself has no meaning.
By not having a fixed meaning to a word, you can avoid the problem of self contradiction. You just flip the meaning of the word to something more convenient.

I love how people claim that a certain term has no meaning, then argue that there is a disparity based on that term. 
I honestly don't think they realize the problem.


----------



## agent99

And what has all this got to do with masks? 

Start a new thread if you want to argue political views. Or don't


----------



## Longtimeago

Some posters cannot stay on topic agent99, you know that. There are also some posters who turn any subject into a political argument, you know that as well.

On masks, I don't know why some areas are so reluctant to mandate them. I still think it is because of advice being given by mental health professionals that forcing people to wear them, forces them to acknowledge there is a risk to their health out there. There are still quite a few people I think who continue to bury their head in the sand and behave as if nothing is happening. It is a psychological issue.

When we see people protesting that it infringes on their individual human rights and freedoms, that is just ridiculous but it gives them a reason to protest since they can't protest that they just don't want to acknowledge there is a real big problem in the world.


----------



## sags

james4beach said:


> Actually, your MO seems to be that you're aware of my sources (when I post references). You probably even read them.
> 
> Then even after I post them, you repeat your assertion that I don't back up my claims.


It is usually those who post opinions without fact, who demand the facts from others, and then they ignore them anyways.


----------



## andrewf

If we knew we were going to mandate masks eventually I don't know why we waited so long. Maybe availability.


----------



## Longtimeago

andrewf said:


> If we knew we were going to mandate masks eventually I don't know why we waited so long. Maybe availability.


Initially availability and then as I said, the psychology involved.


----------



## sags

No doubt the science has evolved while researchers and doctors learned more about the novel virus.


----------



## agent99

andrewf said:


> If we knew we were going to mandate masks eventually I don't know why we waited so long. Maybe availability.


There was information available early on, from China (I think I posted a link near the beginning of this thread). But I don't think anyone knew that masks would eventually need to be mandated,

The shortage of PPE and perhaps belief that cloth masks are not very effective, compared with approved surgical masks, influenced medical people not to promote them at first. Also the concern that they may provide a false sense of security.

The pandemic probably has ended up being much worse than initially expected. So experts probably had to offer something, so likely decided that even low efficiency masks are better than nothing. I have no trouble with them changing their minds. I do have a lot of trouble with idiots here who claim we were deliberately lied to. 

I don't think there is much in the way of reliable science to say just how effective our cloth masks are. They no doubt help, just like those plexiglass barriers, face shields, social distancing (6ft probably not enough!), etc. WE need to do as much as we can.


----------



## Plugging Along

My municipality's by-law went in effect yesterday. There are people threatening to take their business to outside of the city to other towns without masks. Totally fine with me. Though I do wish the province would mandate masks. Schools will reopening fully to 'near normal' (no caps on class size, no masks), just extra cleaning. Masks are encourage... WTF. I don't know how they will contain the virus with some schools as large as 2500 kids. My kids school is just short of 900 kids (maybe less if some stay home). Classes are as large as 38. _Sigh_ this is side vent.

Back to the masks. I have had to run out yesterday and today, and am happy to see that everyone was wearing a mask. I even commended the parent who was helping his toddler (about 2 years) old put on his mask, wipe his hands, and told him 'no touching otherwise people won't know he is a superhero'. I saw one older couple where one had a mask and the other didn't, I assume it's due to medical reasons. I hope this trend continues here. 

For the school, I am working on a parent campaign to get masks on as many of the kids as possible. The challenge with the teens is many of them don't want to wear it because they don't want to be singled out. If most of the class is wearing it, then I hope positive peer pressure will work. 

I also have found a Toronto based company (in partnership with Germany company) on kickstarter. It like a reusable, N95/FP22 mask (currently being certified) mask, that doesn't look you are going into a war zone, and it's transparent to see the mouth. They have met their pledge goal. I did pledge for the first time. If there are any engineers who want to weigh in, please do.

 Canadian Reusable N95 mask

I know right now the recommendation is for any face masks to protect others, but if people are being buttheads, then I am not looking for options that will also protect me. I did manage to find some KN95 and have family ship them from over seas for the next wave, but they are not reusable.


----------



## bgc_fan

Longtimeago said:


> I just watched Smerconish this morning and his question was should Biden debate Trump. One commentator said basically what I am saying here. Biden should not debate Trump because Trump does not debate, he simply states lies as facts and that leaves the other person having to just correct him all the time rather than DEBATING anything. It allows the person, Trump or Lonewolf or whoever, simply an opportunity to repeat the lies over and over and changes nothing. A total waste of time.


Gish gallop. That is one of those favourite techniques where people keep spewing out lies and untruths which take a lot of time to correct. It looks like they are "winning" because the other side tries to explain why they are wrong, but that takes a lot more effort and people like the 7 sec sound bites lies that are spewed.


----------



## calm

Every time I see a very young child in a store and who is dutifully wearing a mask, I go out of my way to compliment the kid as to how nice his mask looks.


----------



## bgc_fan

Plugging Along said:


> I also have found a Toronto based company (in partnership with Germany company) on kickstarter. It like a reusable, N95/FP22 mask (currently being certified) mask, that doesn't look you are going into a war zone, and it's transparent to see the mouth. They have met their pledge goal. I did pledge for the first time. If there are any engineers who want to weigh in, please do.


It's interesting, the only thing I would point out that a lot of masks really need a fit test to determine their effectiveness. A one-size fits all is generally not as effective, but this is probably better than a surgical mask or cloth mask.


----------



## calm

bgc_fan said:


> a lot of masks really need a fit test to determine their effectiveness. A one-size fits all is generally not as effective, but this is probably better than a surgical mask or cloth mask.


.
Yeh!
That is my main complaint about masks. I found myself always shifting it to properly cover or to fit.
Another mistake I made was to buy a mask with a design or print like a maple leaf as an example.
You need to always check to ensure it is not upside down or whatever as you put it on.

That is why I ordered this mask, but had problems with delivery. I did not order it for the copper, but only because it was a plain design and fully covered my face. I think I will try and find one at Amazon.








Masks


Patented nano popular copper mask. Washable Reusable Copper Face mask. Best Sellers safety respiratory protection easy breathing Face Masks for kids COVID-19 N95 filter and KN95 Masks. follow the CDC guidelines




www.coppermask.com





These are pretty neat examples for kids .....




__





Mask + humour - Etsy CA


Check out our mask + humour selection for the very best in unique or custom, handmade pieces from our shops.




www.etsy.com


----------



## sags

The best idea I have heard on the schools and education is virtual learning by parents and teachers in small numbers of kids.

They stay with the same group, social distance but sill have some social interactions. It could happen in homes, churches, libraries etc.

Maybe school "camps" would be a good idea.The kids and teachers stay there and don't leave. Food, lodging provided.

No danger of the virus in that scenario. Coming and going from schools in large numbers......I don't think is going to work.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> If we knew we were going to mandate masks eventually I don't know why we waited so long. Maybe availability.


It could be the limited availability. It's time for everyone to get on this, and make sure you have sufficient masks, before we head into cold & flu season. If we do this right, we're also going to reduce the number of influenza deaths, which could save thousands of lives in our cities... COVID or not!!

At the risk of depleting supplies that I'm enjoying, I want to plug two different sources of masks that have been good for me (and I'm very happy to help these retailers)

*London Drugs* has had a steady availability of masks, at least the cheap disposable kind that comes in large boxes. I have heard a few health experts say that these can be quite good, assuming a reasonably good fit. Certainly not up to health professional standards, but some health experts say, they are _awfully_ close (triple layer synthetic).

*Old Navy* also makes cloth reuasable ones, and I've been thrilled with them. They come in variety packs, and some seem heavier weight than others. I've been wearing them during outings on hot summer days and am surprised by how comfortable they are. 100% cotton, simple design and cool patterns. They take a long time between order & delivery.


----------



## calm

I think all this talk about school opening is total howash.
It is near impossible to "Retro-fit" schools to deal with this virus.
Who is buying all the extras buses and portable classrooms?
How many hours in school classroom?
How many complete air changes per hour in each room?
How is air circulating into and around the room? (It should not be directed down from the ceiling, which is quite normal.)
With frequent air changes, heat or cooling is going to cost plenty.
-------------
Maybe private schools.

Can subway and bus systems handle a full return to school in Toronto or Montreal and still maintain 6' "Distancing" standards? How crowded will Union Station be? How about the Yonge/Queen subway platform?

I think the politicians are just trying to give everyone good news.
Trying to look competent and busy.

One thing for sure ...... We can not allow a politican to privatize "data".
We must insist on Total Transparency. All data must be available with Freedom Of Information Act.

I want to see all the documents and statistics in real time.

In America all the data is not owned by the American citizen or the government. It is being collected---tested and copyrighted by Bloomberg in New York and with Thiel in Washington.

It is like the Facebook Question .......

Who owns my data?
I think I own my data and not FaceBook.

We citizens need to own the Virus Data.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> I don't think there is much in the way of reliable science to say just how effective our cloth masks are. They no doubt help, just like those plexiglass barriers, face shields, social distancing (6ft probably not enough!), etc. WE need to do as much as we can.


Sometimes in science, you make an educated guess based on available data and heuristics, and make a leap. I do this all the time in my engineering work. Sometimes I have to refine and then circle back later.

The initial COVID fear was entirely about touching surfaces and having dirty hands. Then over time, there was more evidence that close proximity of people (distance, spit and spray) was a bigger factor... so we all tried to adapt.

It seems like a reasonably good idea to wear masks. If both people are wearing masks, we have enough reason to believe (educated guess) that this reduces virus spread. If the mask reduces my risk by only 10%, I will take that deal.

It doesn't have to be perfect science, it just has to be a reasonably good guess. I don't need detailed studies and controlled trials to convince me.

We are in a unique, emergency situation (though many people don't want to believe this). You use your best judgement and this big human brain, with all its heuristics and rule of thumb capabilities we have gained over 6 million years of evolution. _We are not dumb creatures_ and we often make life saving decisions based on instinct and guesses.

Widespread mask usage is IMO, a very good guess.


----------



## :) lonewolf

james4beach said:


> We are in a unique, emergency situation (though many people don't want to believe this). You use your best judgement and this big human brain, with all its heuristics and rule of thumb capabilities


 Many do not have the courage to leave the comfort of the herd. Dont worry when the scamdemic is over 99.99 % of us will not have died from COVID & will still be here. Government will be the danger not COVID


----------



## james4beach

:) lonewolf said:


> Many do not have the courage to leave the comfort of the herd. Dont worry when the scamdemic is over 99.99 % of us will not have died from COVID & will still be here. Government will be the danger not COVID


Sometimes the herd is right, you know. Going against the herd is not always such a great idea.

In fact for optimal outcomes for the animal, going against the herd has to be done very selectively and carefully.

If you're a caribou, happily grazing, and then suddenly the herd takes off and starts running -- you should run too. If instead you say that the other caribou are idiots, and you keep grazing, or perhaps turn and go towards the supposed (scamdemic) danger... you might be walking right towards a very lucky wolf.


----------



## MrMatt

I found the Old Navy masks to be crap.

Lots of places are stocking 50 packs of the disposables for $15-20, costco is selling them for $30 delivered.

Home depot, Costco, and many stores have free masks at the door.

There really isn't much reason to not wear a mask.


----------



## james4beach

MrMatt said:


> I found the Old Navy masks to be crap.
> 
> Lots of places are stocking 50 packs of the disposables for $15-20, costco is selling them for $30 delivered.
> 
> Home depot, Costco, and many stores have free masks at the door.
> 
> There really isn't much reason to not wear a mask.


So do you prefer the disposable type, or do you have any reusable cloth ones you like?


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> So do you prefer the disposable type, or do you have any reusable cloth ones you like?


I haven't found a reusable that works for me.
My wife and kids prefer reusable ones.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> 1. The best idea I have heard on the schools and education is virtual learning by parents and teachers in small numbers of kids.
> 
> 2. They stay with the same group, social distance but sill have some social interactions. It could happen in homes, churches, libraries etc.
> 
> 3. Maybe school "camps" would be a good idea.The kids and teachers stay there and don't leave. Food, lodging provided.
> 
> No danger of the virus in that scenario. Coming and going from schools in large numbers......I don't think is going to work.


1. Some parents in our community are looking to hire laid off teachers and aids to try a home school option of small groups. I think small groups of 6-10. They are running into logistic and ciriculum challenges depending on the grade. This also requires a lot ofassistance from parent for youNever kids, and those that learn different. This was one of the biggest challenges my friends had was being able to work while helping the kids with school. 

2. Good luck finding locations depending on the city. Right now, churches, schools, libraries all are keeping their group rooms closed. we meet at a lot of these places for girl Guides, not a single place has agreed to rent their space. 

3. Sorry , i cannot see how this idea would work. This would be awful. Who in the world would agree to send their kids away ‘camp’ for the year or even a month. who would even want to teach and be away from their families. Who would cook, clean and do all the other things that need to be done for this camp. It sound like a long term care facility for kids. 

Our School board is returning as usually, mask only recommended but not mandated with no additional funding (we had huge cuts in December). There is an on line option where all kids by grade can attend online. However, it is a general teacher woth kids acpros the city. A large parent involvement is required. i would consider it but my kids really need the social part with their friends But more imoritant they are in special programs. They have said being with regular kids would be the most painful thing in the world and Wouldn’t learn anything. They would rather take the chance in their enhanced class and have it shut down than go woth a bunch of random kids that take Forever, 

I also don’t see anyone one plan that will will work for everyone. So far the private schools around here seem to have to done the most, but my kids don’t want to go. So the best I can do is advocate making our school the safest we can. Its going to be a crap show in sept for us.


----------



## Plugging Along

MrMatt said:


> I haven't found a reusable that works for me.
> My wife and kids prefer reusable ones.


I have tried several different kinds and materials. my family is getting used to all of the masks. So far one of the most breathable is the Tilly mask. It’s the most breathable, soft material, has the double layer woth a filter pocket and very good nose wire. even with a filter it’s was more breathable than some of my other masks. I got mine at Costco but they have been sold out for a while. Tilley Canada has an even newer one that looks great. I would get more of these if I wasn’t on the hunt for ones that offer more protection for the wearer.

The other one that is great is the Buff brand. They make a mask in addition to the buff gator. It’s quite pricey but well made, our friend uses it for riding but it also has the filter pocket. it has a very nice design Around the ears and is very breathable.


----------



## Plugging Along

bgc_fan said:


> It's interesting, the only thing I would point out that a lot of masks really need a fit test to determine their effectiveness. A one-size fits all is generally not as effective, but this is probably better than a surgical mask or cloth mask.


That’s what I wonder too. These masks have a flexible joint areas for fit and a heavier silicon elastic. I hope. I am hoping there is enough ‘flex’ that it seals well.

I have cloth masks with pm2.5 filters. But want something that is easier to clean and more environmentally friendly. I hope these are good enough.


----------



## calm

Plugging Along said:


> I have tried several different kinds and materials. my family is getting used to all of the masks. So far one of the most breathable is the Tilly mask. It’s the most breathable, soft material, has the double layer woth a filter pocket and very good nose wire. even with a filter it’s was more breathable than some of my other masks.


I have a link
What kind of mask did you buy?
I want to order 2.





Face Coverings | Tilley


Face Coverings




www.tilley.com


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Some people can't wear masks because of a medical condition like emphysema. It is illegal to force someone to wear a mask if it would injure their health and it is illegal to question their claim to have a medical condition. So all you need to do is say "I have a medical condition that will not allow me to wear a mask" and store employees have to back off. Whether this will work with some crazy Karen armed with pepper spray is another question. On the whole I find it easier to wear the mask.


----------



## MrMatt

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Some people can't wear masks because of a medical condition like emphysema. It is illegal to force someone to wear a mask if it would injure their health and it is illegal to question their claim to have a medical condition. So all you need to do is say "I have a medical condition that will not allow me to wear a mask" and store employees have to back off. Whether this will work with some crazy Karen armed with pepper spray is another question. On the whole I find it easier to wear the mask.


That's true, and I haven't heard of any laws in Canada that didn't include that exemption.
That being said, you'd have to have an incredibly serious medical condition to not be able to wear a mask.

The reality is that a proper mask, like the disposable surgical masks offer nearly no impairment on breathing.
Even then, just use the full face shields, which most places are considering equivalent.

I know people with lots of medical conditions, and even the worst asthmatic wears a mask.
Realistically people with breathing issues that severe, covid19, or the flu, or even a cold means hospitalization and possible death.


----------



## Plugging Along

calm said:


> I have a link
> What kind of mask did you buy?
> I want to order 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Face Coverings | Tilley
> 
> 
> Face Coverings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tilley.com


I ordered mine off of the Costco website, but they have been sold out for a while. I think the closet one was the cotton ones that are listed. the Men’s and women’s are pretty much the same. I ordered the men’s and they fit both my spouse and me.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Some people can't wear masks because of a medical condition like emphysema. It is illegal to force someone to wear a mask if it would injure their health and it is illegal to question their claim to have a medical condition. So all you need to do is say "I have a medical condition that will not allow me to wear a mask" and store employees have to back off. Whether this will work with some crazy Karen armed with pepper spray is another question. On the whole I find it easier to wear the mask.


Section 22 religion & creed also apply

The thing is masks just make matters worse. The moister inside the mask makes for a breeding ground for COVID. The virus will go through the mask.


----------



## calm

Plugging Along said:


> I ordered mine off of the Costco website,


I admire all the mask research you have done.
You know your stuff.
I need help or recommendation of best choice. in your opinion.
Can you give me the particulars off the Costco website even though they are out of stock?
I will order from the parent Tilley website and wait 4 months if need be.
I just want to know exactly what to buy or where the only decision I need worry about is the colour.
In the future, in if you ever have a problem with "Real Bugs" (insects), I know how to control that problem. I spent 2 years studying them in college. (We could sort of trade what we know.)
Thank You.
------
I don't wear a mask with the hope of me not ever catching the virus.
I am much convinced that I can not be that damn lucky and dodge the virus bug for the next year or 2 until they find a vaccine.
I wear a mask to slow the spread of the virus and to not overwhelm the health care system and so people can get treated for other ailments and not just the virus.


----------



## calm

Holy Jeeze! 
"Elected Officials" are seriously suggesting that we may need to wear eye protection and masks in our own homes because of inadequate air changes in most homes. Building codes and insulation are designed to cause fewer air changes than what is required against Covid-19.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I have difficulty breathing with a mask. In fact, I don't do that well without one. Can tolerate a mask for a short time if I don't have to run or exert myself at all. Will plan my grocery shopping to get in and out as quickly as possible, if there is a lineup of more than 2 or 3 people waiting to go in the store will go home and try again later. Weekdays after 6pm seem to be the best times. Have cut my shopping down to one trip a week, and occasional coffee drive thru visits which do not require a mask - so far. Have stocked up on instant coffee and whitener just in case.


----------



## calm

I just heard somebody say that the subway cars (not subway platforms) in New York have a complete air change every three minutes. (Howcome they smell so bad?)

Subway cars deemed safe with claims that nobody is talking or doing anything strenuous during the ride.
Less airborne stuff.

I am thinking that walking or getting to the subway car before the doors slam on you is quite strenuous and physical.
I do plenty of panting while catching my breath when I am finally able to find my seat in the subway car.

I frequently think about air flows and heat gains because I studied it while servicing air conditioners and refrigeration units.




__





heat gain + one person - Google Search






www.google.com


----------



## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> 1. Some parents in our community are looking to hire laid off teachers and aids to try a home school option of small groups. I think small groups of 6-10. They are running into logistic and ciriculum challenges depending on the grade. This also requires a lot ofassistance from parent for youNever kids, and those that learn different. This was one of the biggest challenges my friends had was being able to work while helping the kids with school.
> 
> 2. Good luck finding locations depending on the city. Right now, churches, schools, libraries all are keeping their group rooms closed. we meet at a lot of these places for girl Guides, not a single place has agreed to rent their space.
> 
> 3. Sorry , i cannot see how this idea would work. This would be awful. Who in the world would agree to send their kids away ‘camp’ for the year or even a month. who would even want to teach and be away from their families. Who would cook, clean and do all the other things that need to be done for this camp. It sound like a long term care facility for kids.
> 
> Our School board is returning as usually, mask only recommended but not mandated with no additional funding (we had huge cuts in December). There is an on line option where all kids by grade can attend online. However, it is a general teacher woth kids acpros the city. A large parent involvement is required. i would consider it but my kids really need the social part with their friends But more imoritant they are in special programs. They have said being with regular kids would be the most painful thing in the world and Wouldn’t learn anything. They would rather take the chance in their enhanced class and have it shut down than go woth a bunch of random kids that take Forever,
> 
> I also don’t see anyone one plan that will will work for everyone. So far the private schools around here seem to have to done the most, but my kids don’t want to go. So the best I can do is advocate making our school the safest we can. Its going to be a crap show in sept for us.


It's supposed to be a 'mask' thread not a 'school' thread. Why not start a school thread for that specific topic.


----------



## Longtimeago

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Some people can't wear masks because of a medical condition like emphysema. It is illegal to force someone to wear a mask if it would injure their health and it is illegal to question their claim to have a medical condition. So all you need to do is say "I have a medical condition that will not allow me to wear a mask" and store employees have to back off. Whether this will work with some crazy Karen armed with pepper spray is another question. On the whole I find it easier to wear the mask.


Umm, no, store employees do not have to 'back off'. If the store policy is 'mask mandatory' then that is their policy and they can refuse entry to anyone without a mask. There is no LAW that says someone claiming a medical condition is exempt from a store policy, they are only exempt from a bylaw.

In other words, a store can choose to have a policy that is stricter than the bylaw if they choose to. It is the, 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' choice a store can make on their own.

What you are talking about is in areas where there is a bylaw and a store then chooses to follow that bylaw as they must of course but do not choose to go beyond the bylaw and institute a stricter policy of their own. If you own a store, you have the right to refuse service.








How and When to Refuse Service to a Customer


Learn how to deescalate negative interactions with unruly customers, and understand when and how to refuse service when necessary. Improve your company's customer service with these tips on asking customers to leave your place of business.



quickbooks.intuit.com




.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> Umm, no, store employees do not have to 'back off'. If the store policy is 'mask mandatory' then that is their policy and they can refuse entry to anyone without a mask. There is no LAW that says someone claiming a medical condition is exempt from a store policy, they are only exempt from a bylaw.
> 
> In other words, a store can choose to have a policy that is stricter than the bylaw if they choose to. It is the, 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' choice a store can make on their own.
> 
> What you are talking about is in areas where there is a bylaw and a store then chooses to follow that bylaw as they must of course but do not choose to go beyond the bylaw and institute a stricter policy of their own. If you own a store, you have the right to refuse service.


As long as you don't refuse service based on a prohibited ground.
That includes discrimination on disabilities, of which a medical condition would be considered a disability.
Here is a good link, and it references several Federal resources, including supreme court judgements.




__





8. Duty to accommodate | Ontario Human Rights Commission







www.ohrc.on.ca





The COVID19 medical exemption is as problematic as the "service animal" exception, there is no standard for it, so it's almost impossible to enforce.

That being said, I think if you had a serious breathing problem where a mask was a problem, 
1. I'd wear a face shield.
2. getting a communicable disease such as COVID19, or the flu, would we so bad, that you'd likely WANT to suffer and attempt to wear a mask.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> As long as you don't refuse service based on a prohibited ground.
> That includes discrimination on disabilities, of which a medical condition would be considered a disability.
> Here is a good link, and it references several Federal resources, including supreme court judgements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8. Duty to accommodate | Ontario Human Rights Commission
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ohrc.on.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COVID19 medical exemption is as problematic as the "service animal" exception, there is no standard for it, so it's almost impossible to enforce.
> 
> That being said, I think if you had a serious breathing problem where a mask was a problem,
> 1. I'd wear a face shield.
> 2. getting a communicable disease such as COVID19, or the flu, would we so bad, that you'd likely WANT to suffer and attempt to wear a mask.


Here is how the real world works MrMatt. I can do whatever I want as long as I am prepared to accept the consequences. You might be able to argue in COURT that I cannot refuse you service based on a REAL medical condition. You certainly couldn't do so if you are just an 'anti-masker' saying you have a medical condition when you actually do not and that is what 'anti-maskers' are trying to suggest you can do and will have to allowed to enter.

If you actually do have a medical condition that would see the court finding in your favour if I refused you service, you would have to go to court to do so. In the meantime, you still would not have got into my store.

I agree with you, if someone really has a problem then wear a face shield which I doubt few would refuse. But when people say, 'they have to let you in', that is simply not true. 

There are lots of things like this where people say, 'they have to' or 'you would win in court' but the bottom line is you can only do that AFTER the fact. It doesn't get you what you wanted at the time you wanted it. It is common for example to read posts in travel forum where people are talking about being refused boarding on a plane for whatever reason and saying, 'it's not right, they should have boarded me, I legally had the right to be boarded, etc.' But the bottom line is always the same, the plane took off without them on board.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> It's supposed to be a 'mask' thread not a 'school' thread. Why not start a school thread for that specific topic.


Yes, it is 'supposed' to be a mask thread but this has not stopped many for going off topic. You, yourself have gone off topic numerous times in this thread. 

I debated starting a thread about school in hopes get tips about how to make my kids school safer. However, did not for the following reason:

Most posters here are from a different provinces. This will also lead to political discussions that I have no interests in
Our conspiracy theorist will take off topic as he is also against education and will probably bring up that its child abuse to send our kids to school, along with spam of stupid conspiracy sites
Our socialists will bring up the lack of funding, and we should just put more money in it, which as a parent agree, but again it will take us off topic
Many of the boards participants are older without kids in the school system or don't have kids, so will bring up ideas that sound great from the arm chair, but not really what I want to discuss.
You will find a way to be condescending and are arm chair participant from another province.

For these reason, I have started a real conversation in my more local parenting groups on how to help. I put my information in here because for some silly reason, masks are a specific exemption in schools. However, they are 'recommended'. Now back to the program.


----------



## Longtimeago

Plugging Along said:


> Yes, it is 'supposed' to be a mask thread but this has not stopped many for going off topic. You, yourself have gone off topic numerous times in this thread.
> 
> I debated starting a thread about school in hopes get tips about how to make my kids school safer. However, did not for the following reason:
> 
> Most posters here are from a different provinces. This will also lead to political discussions that I have no interests in
> Our conspiracy theorist will take off topic as he is also against education and will probably bring up that its child abuse to send our kids to school, along with spam of stupid conspiracy sites
> Our socialists will bring up the lack of funding, and we should just put more money in it, which as a parent agree, but again it will take us off topic
> Many of the boards participants are older without kids in the school system or don't have kids, so will bring up ideas that sound great from the arm chair, but not really what I want to discuss.
> You will find a way to be condescending and are arm chair participant from another province.
> For these reason, I have started a real conversation in my more local parenting groups on how to help. I put my information in here because for some silly reason, masks are a specific exemption in schools. However, they are 'recommended'. Now back to the program.


Masks are going to be mandatory in Ontario schools from grade 4 and up.

I asked why not start a separate thread not to admonish you for posting on the subject here Plugging Along but as what I saw as a reasonable separate topic. I guess how I worded my comment was not clear enough to convey that. Your comments re why you have not are reasonable for the most part I suppose but even though provinces will differ etc. I still think a separate thread if you are going to talk about it at ALL in this forum would make sense.


----------



## andrewf

Longtimeago said:


> It's supposed to be a 'mask' thread not a 'school' thread. Why not start a school thread for that specific topic.


This is a mask thread not a topic policing thread. Why not start a topic policing thread for that specific activity?


----------



## Longtimeago

andrewf said:


> This is a mask thread not a topic policing thread. Why not start a topic policing thread for that specific activity?


I'm sorry, did you say something? I heard a buzzing noise like a mosquito nearby but that's all I heard. LOL


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> Here is how the real world works MrMatt. I can do whatever I want as long as I am prepared to accept the consequences. You might be able to argue in COURT that I cannot refuse you service based on a REAL medical condition. You certainly couldn't do so if you are just an 'anti-masker' saying you have a medical condition when you actually do not and that is what 'anti-maskers' are trying to suggest you can do and will have to allowed to enter.
> 
> If you actually do have a medical condition that would see the court finding in your favour if I refused you service, you would have to go to court to do so. In the meantime, you still would not have got into my store.
> 
> I agree with you, if someone really has a problem then wear a face shield which I doubt few would refuse. But when people say, 'they have to let you in', that is simply not true.
> 
> There are lots of things like this where people say, 'they have to' or 'you would win in court' but the bottom line is you can only do that AFTER the fact. It doesn't get you what you wanted at the time you wanted it. It is common for example to read posts in travel forum where people are talking about being refused boarding on a plane for whatever reason and saying, 'it's not right, they should have boarded me, I legally had the right to be boarded, etc.' But the bottom line is always the same, the plane took off without them on board.


I agree, it's like I tell my kids (and my parents told me).

You might have the right of way, but the car will still hurt you.

That being said.
1. If you have a valid reason, the store should allow you to access. That is the law in Canada.
2. Yes people will try to take advantage of it. 
3. If the store wrongly prohibits access, they're in violation of the law. I don't think "It's illegal, but I'll probably get away with it" is an appropriate attitude.
4. Secondly if it's brought up as a human rights complaint, that can be very bad for your business. It can be filed in the human rights tribunals, not the courts.


----------



## Plugging Along

calm said:


> I admire all the mask research you have done.
> You know your stuff.
> I need help or recommendation of best choice. in your opinion.
> Can you give me the particulars off the Costco website even though they are out of stock?
> I will order from the parent Tilley website and wait 4 months if need be.
> I just want to know exactly what to buy or where the only decision I need worry about is the colour.
> In the future, in if you ever have a problem with "Real Bugs" (insects), I know how to control that problem. I spent 2 years studying them in college. (We could sort of trade what we know.)
> Thank You.


I copied the information from my Costco order. However, I don't think they are getting any more in, the store says it's not in the system. (I hope the picture works). 








Tilley Unisex Face Masks, 4-pack
Item #4567890
$24.99

Looking at the Tilley site, based on the description and the reviews they do not seem to have a nose wire, which would be a no go for me.

Here are the things I consider when buying masks:

MUST have a minimum 2 -ply with a filter pocket. It's better if it's 2-ply of material, and then the filter pocket (which makes it 3 layers)
MUST have a filter pocket
MUST have a nose wire. Better if the nose wire has a slight opening to swap out, but this is not done commercially
Nice to have's

Around the ears instead of ties. Ties are good if you are wearing the masks over an n95, but I don't like them (that may be a preference)
Elastics that are threaded through after the mask is sewing vs, sewn in. This allows for you change the elastic if it breaks and better sealing at the sides. However, definitely not show stopping
Beads or toggles on the elastic for easier adjustment
Materials are better if there is at least one cotton layer, but a cotton blend is fine. I have been playing with other materials. Someone bought me a beautiful silk one, but not very practical. I only like materials that I can throw in the quick cycle of my wash.
If the surgical style (like the ones that look like the disposables), the pleats on the outside should be sewn downwards when worn.

The most important were the first three items I listed. Fit is really important. If you are having problems finding a mask, i would contact local tailor. I have a friend who is a tailor who made my some in the early days. I gave them the specifications and they made them for me. The ones being commercially made aren't any better if it is just a cloth mask.


----------



## Plugging Along

Longtimeago said:


> Masks are going to be mandatory in Ontario schools from grade 4 and up.
> 
> I asked why not start a separate thread not to admonish you for posting on the subject here Plugging Along but as what I saw as a reasonable separate topic. I guess how I worded my comment was not clear enough to convey that. Your comments re why you have not are reasonable for the most part I suppose but even though provinces will differ etc. I still think a separate thread if you are going to talk about it at ALL in this forum would make sense.


I have no desire to start a separate thread about school start up on this forum for the reasons I already mentioned. I am here to talk about masks as it's something that is important. If I occasionally stray like others do, then be it. You are welcome to start a thread about schools, and if I feel like I have something to add then I may.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> I agree, it's like I tell my kids (and my parents told me).
> 
> You might have the right of way, but the car will still hurt you.
> 
> That being said.
> 1. If you have a valid reason, the store should allow you to access. That is the law in Canada.
> 2. Yes people will try to take advantage of it.
> 3. If the store wrongly prohibits access, they're in violation of the law. I don't think "It's illegal, but I'll probably get away with it" is an appropriate attitude.
> 4. Secondly if it's brought up as a human rights complaint, that can be very bad for your business. It can be filed in the human rights tribunals, not the courts.


I have no argument with any of that MrMatt. My point was simply that those who want to say, 'you can just say you have a medical condition and they have to let you in.' Are wrong. It ain't that simple.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> I have no argument with any of that MrMatt. My point was simply that those who want to say, 'you can just say you have a medical condition and they have to let you in.' Are wrong. It ain't that simple.


They have a legal obligation to let you in, just as if you were in a wheelchair, or if you had a seeing eye dog, or if you were rejected due to being in a protected class.

Again, I assume that the store is going to act in compliance with the law, and that's generally a reasonable assumption. If they're not acting in compliance with the law, well their actions are only limited by their imaginations and the laws of physics.


----------



## Longtimeago

Food for thought.








Copper masks are the latest craze. Should you buy one?


Copper masks are more expensive than typical cloth ones. Are they worth the cost?




www.fastcompany.com





Purely by chance, this is the type of mask we bought at a local Pharmacy.
Scroll down to the copper ion mask here:





Products – Mission Medix







missionmedix.com





I think 'one size fits all' is an issue. While the medium mask fits me quite well, I had to return and buy a small mask for my wife after she tried the medium size. I also think a mask that has a 'cup' design to fit under the chin is as important as having an adjustable wire at the nose. Most if not all disposable masks really don't fit that well.


----------



## Longtimeago

MrMatt said:


> They have a legal obligation to let you in, just as if you were in a wheelchair, or if you had a seeing eye dog, or if you were rejected due to being in a protected class.
> 
> Again, I assume that the store is going to act in compliance with the law, and that's generally a reasonable assumption. If they're not acting in compliance with the law, well their actions are only limited by their imaginations and the laws of physics.


Again I don't disagree with that MrMatt but it ASSUMES you do have a legal right to be allowed entry and that therefore they have a legal obligation to let you in. 

You know as well as I do that there are plenty of people including some here who are saying you can LIE about having a medical condition and if you do, they have to let you in. I'm saying, NO they do not have to let you in if they CHOOSE to say no and are prepared to face the consequences if someone tried taking them to court. In other words lying about it does not guarantee anyone entry. 

Where the flaw currently is in our mask bylaws is that they do not require 'proof' of a medical condition. That puts the burden on the store to make a judgement when someone claims to have a medical condition. Most may accept someone's word for it because they do not want to become liable if they refuse someone but it is up to them whether they do that or not. IF they choose to refuse entry and risk a court case they can do so. 

Put it this way. Suppose a store refuses entry to someone claiming a medical condition. The person argues the point and the police are called. What will the cop tell the person being refused? I believe they will tell the person, 'there is nothing I can do for you, they have the 'right to refuse' service. You can take them to court if you want but not even I a cop can make them allow you entry today. That is the law.'

The solution would be for those who have a medical condition to be provided with a 'certificate' of some sort to prove they should be allowed entry. Just like we give out Accessible Parking Permits for those who qualify for one. This virus has simply been too fast for having that preparation in place as quickly as they have decided to change to mandated masks in municipalities, so they opted for 'no proof required'. They should be moving to provide a form of proof for those who need one as quickly as practical. But in the meantime, the onus is on the stores themselves to DECIDE.


----------



## Eder

*The land with no face masks: Holland's top scientists say there's no solid evidence coverings work and warn they could even damage the fight against Covid-19*


The World Health Organization has also been skeptical, warning that 'widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not yet supported by high-quality or direct scientific evidence'. 

Although changing its advice in June to back the encouragement of mask wearing in some settings, the WHO lists 11 'potential harms' that range from discomfort through to self-contamination and lower compliance with more critical preventative measures.

'Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,' said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. 'There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.' 

I thought the science was settled. I do suspect maskholes are responsible for more Covid spread as they seem to ignore social distancing requirements.


----------



## MrMatt

Longtimeago said:


> Again I don't disagree with that MrMatt but it ASSUMES you do have a legal right to be allowed entry and that therefore they have a legal obligation to let you in.
> 
> You know as well as I do that there are plenty of people including some here who are saying you can LIE about having a medical condition and if you do, they have to let you in. I'm saying, NO they do not have to let you in if they CHOOSE to say no and are prepared to face the consequences if someone tried taking them to court. In other words lying about it does not guarantee anyone entry.
> 
> Where the flaw currently is in our mask bylaws is that they do not require 'proof' of a medical condition. That puts the burden on the store to make a judgement when someone claims to have a medical condition. Most may accept someone's word for it because they do not want to become liable if they refuse someone but it is up to them whether they do that or not. IF they choose to refuse entry and risk a court case they can do so.
> 
> Put it this way. Suppose a store refuses entry to someone claiming a medical condition. The person argues the point and the police are called. What will the cop tell the person being refused? I believe they will tell the person, 'there is nothing I can do for you, they have the 'right to refuse' service. You can take them to court if you want but not even I a cop can make them allow you entry today. That is the law.'
> 
> The solution would be for those who have a medical condition to be provided with a 'certificate' of some sort to prove they should be allowed entry. Just like we give out Accessible Parking Permits for those who qualify for one. This virus has simply been too fast for having that preparation in place as quickly as they have decided to change to mandated masks in municipalities, so they opted for 'no proof required'. They should be moving to provide a form of proof for those who need one as quickly as practical. But in the meantime, the onus is on the stores themselves to DECIDE.


I agree.
However a few things could happen.
Assuming it is not a real medical concern, the no-masker will drop it.
Assuming it is a real medical concern.
The police should de-escalate, which means the person with the medical issue will be disriminated against.
If they pursue it, the store will get hammered with bad PR, and a hefty ruling from the Tribunal.
Unless the store offers an alternative accomodation.

If the store requires "proof", they're still in a bad position.
For one, the proof may not exist, and that most orders/bylaws explicitly state proof is not required.
It can be argued that requiring "proof" is contrary to the best and common practice.
https://www.healthunit.com/face-masks

This is exactly why people let "service animals" run amuck, with predictable results.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> *The land with no face masks: Holland's top scientists say there's no solid evidence coverings work and warn they could even damage the fight against Covid-19*
> 
> 
> The World Health Organization has also been skeptical, warning that 'widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not yet supported by high-quality or direct scientific evidence'.
> 
> Although changing its advice in June to back the encouragement of mask wearing in some settings, the WHO lists 11 'potential harms' that range from discomfort through to self-contamination and lower compliance with more critical preventative measures.
> 
> 'Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,' said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. 'There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.'
> 
> I thought the science was settled. I do suspect maskholes are responsible for more Covid spread as they seem to ignore social distancing requirements.


You can't wait for perfect information in a crisis. While you can say something like X is not supported by high quality or direct scientific evidence, that is not as strong a statement as you might think about whether X is true or not. Particularly when there has been limited time to obtain such evidence. We can try the climate skeptic approach of waiting until everyone has COVID until being confident whether masks help or not, or we can use our knowledge about other airborne diseases and use reasonable precautions.


----------



## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> You can't wait for perfect information in a crisis. While you can say something like X is not supported by high quality or direct scientific evidence, that is not as strong a statement as you might think about whether X is true or not. Particularly when there has been limited time to obtain such evidence. We can try the climate skeptic approach of waiting until everyone has COVID until being confident whether masks help or not, or we can use our knowledge about other airborne diseases and use reasonable precautions.


I can't wait for the people who were complaining about the Canadian government lying about effectiveness of masks defend Holland for their stance on not wearing masks.


----------



## james4beach

deleted


----------



## Eder

I have no horse here....I wear a mask where required. The lack of science is what I'm pointing out, as well as conflicting scientists opinions that point out masks are often detrimental, but most likely this is the wrong thread to do so, as most here belong to the choir.

At any rate I think emboldened mask wearers are one reason we are starting to spike with new cases. People think masks help and get too close with out any thought. Seems to me people had more consideration for distancing before the mask hoopla.

But at any rate lets continue to wear masks if we like, just stay 6' away please!


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> But at any rate lets continue to wear masks if we like, just stay 6' away please!


Yes this part is more important than the masks. Everyone needs to keep a distance from each other.

In my experience though, people seem to keep more distance when each is wearing a mask. And the reverse is true; the absence of a mask is almost like a cue to other talkative or lonely people come near you. I've stepped outside my apartment building without a mask (it's fresh air, no need) and more than once, a stranger has come up to me to chat... I don't want to chat.

This hasn't happened to me when wearing a mask. I think it's good that the mask obscures facial expressions. It makes a person look more sinister and unapproachable, which is definitely *positive*.


----------



## calm

Cannabis, Lies and Foreign Cash: A Mother and Daughter’s Journey Through the Underground Mask Trade
Contracts, emails and spreadsheets that Juanita and Dawn Ramos shared with ProPublica detail how domestic and foreign investors, many with marijuana industry ties, seized upon the nation’s public health disaster.
By J. David McSwane 
August 03, 2020








Cannabis, Lies and Foreign Cash: A Mother and Daughter’s Journey Through the Underground Mask Trade


Contracts, emails and spreadsheets that Juanita and Dawn Ramos shared with ProPublica detail how domestic and foreign investors, many with marijuana industry ties, seized upon the nation’s public health disaster.




www.propublica.org


----------



## calm

Plugging Along said:


> Tilley Unisex Face Masks, 4-pack
> Item #4567890
> $24.99
> 
> Here are the things I consider when buying masks:
> 
> MUST have a minimum 2 -ply with a filter pocket. It's better if it's 2-ply of material, and then the filter pocket (which makes it 3 layers)
> MUST have a filter pocket
> MUST have a nose wire. Better if the nose wire has a slight opening to swap out, but this is not done commercially




Do you know where I can get 2 masks with all those above mentioned bonus points?
Or are you saying that there is no such animal unless I get it tailor made?

This is what the Tilley Website has available.
Are these Okay?


https://www.tilley.com/ca_en/catalogsearch/result/?q=Unisex+Face+Masks%2C+4-pack


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> I have no horse here....I wear a mask where required. The lack of science is what I'm pointing out, as well as conflicting scientists opinions that point out masks are often detrimental, but most likely this is the wrong thread to do so, as most here belong to the choir.
> 
> At any rate I think emboldened mask wearers are one reason we are starting to spike with new cases. People think masks help and get too close with out any thought. Seems to me people had more consideration for distancing before the mask hoopla.
> 
> But at any rate lets continue to wear masks if we like, just stay 6' away please!


I think the false sense of security doesn't help.
also that I still see a good 10% of people wearing them improperly. Lots of exposed noses.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Longtimeago said:


> I have no argument with any of that MrMatt. My point was simply that those who want to say, 'you can just say you have a medical condition and they have to let you in.' Are wrong. It ain't that simple.


Yes it is that simple, though it goes beyond a medical condition it also allows religion & creed. So why even make masks mandatory if you thinking is not to wear one why are they trying to go against your rights & you dont have to disclose info under section 22.
Though I am not sure if there is a differnnce between private & public companies regarding the law.

If I had a private company & I wanted to protect my workers I would not let them wear masks as well as the people entering. If a business can tell you to wear a mask they should be able to tell you you cant wear a mask.


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> At any rate I think emboldened mask wearers are one reason we are starting to spike with new cases. People think masks help and get too close with out any thought. Seems to me people had more consideration for distancing before the mask hoopla.





MrMatt said:


> I think the false sense of security doesn't help.
> also that I still see a good 10% of people wearing them improperly. Lots of exposed noses.


The two above observations are probably the main factors why masks weren't pushed at the beginning in favour of social distancing. The danger of emphasizing mask usage at the start instead of social distancing would have ended up with a higher infection rate as people would keep going around their daily business with a false sense of security and start getting sick. Yes, there was an issue of initial supply, but when the health specialists were talking about how mask usage could increase infection rate: false sense of security and misuse of masks were the main reasons.


----------



## Plugging Along

calm said:


> Do you know where I can get 2 masks with all those above mentioned bonus points?
> Or are you saying that there is no such animal unless I get it tailor made?
> 
> This is what the Tilley Website has available.
> Are these Okay?
> http://[URL]https://www.tilley.com/ca_en/catalogsearch/result/?q=Unisex+Face+Masks,+4-pack[/URL]


The Tilley one's on the website do not seem to have the nose wire. I would contact them to confirm this. In terms of all the points I made, I went local. That's why I would suggest that you do too. See if you can find a tailor or seamstress and ask them if they make masks. Just make sure they sew the masks themselves and are not an imported. Not that importers are bad, but workmanship overseas is not as good. 

Literally hundreds of companies popped up over night, and their are better and better masks designs all the time now. When I was looking for masks in February and March there were few options. Now, the masks are everywhere. Without me researching the individual companies, I gave you a list of things to ask. 

The last cloth masks I bought were the Tilley ones from Costco, but they are gone now. I don't need any more cloth masks. I am now moving into researching more protective N95 or respirator style now that offer me protection from the anti maskers.

One local site is weddingstar.ca. I think they are Alberta based. I know many people who ordered them and like them. I find them made pretty closely to the Tilleyin terms of design and fabric. They are a tad thinner, but that makes them breathable. Finding a three layer is harder though.


----------



## james4beach

Interesting, in the grocery store today, I noticed that mask usage has increased pretty significantly.

A couple weeks ago I would have said about 25% mask usage. Today I saw more like 75%. At the same time, people were asking for alcohol spray on their hands as they entered.

The public seems to be showing a bit more concern around where I live, than a few weeks ago. Young people (in 20s) continue to be the one group that I never see wearing masks.


----------



## nortel'd

Now that three layer non-medical masks can be bought in quantity, I am using my old Singer sewing machine to convert two non-medical masks along with a Bounty paper towel into one disposable  Florida Prototype 2 mask...
It takes one half hour to make the conversion and supposedly the masks can be worn for two to three hours. (Before I start, I make sure all surfaces plus my hands are sterile.)

The FLORIDA PROTOTYPE 2 involves a cone shape around the nose and the mouth and darts to snug the mask under the chin. Their web site brags” The mask has passed the Respirator Fit Test”. And no kidding they are right....plus the additional available surface area enhances breathability.

See photos... Talk about comfort.... Once the nose band and ear bands are re-attached correctly, the fit makes a perfect seal, there is no resistance to breathing and you don’t need to fidget with the nose area to make it more comfortable and safer to breath.























I also used the pattern (and to some degree the sewing instructions) to make a supply of different sized masks using a minimum of 3 layers of 180 tread count 100% cotton and one or two layers of shop towel ending with a Bounty paper towel insert. (Patterns were made with printouts for 100%, 102%, 105% or a combination of printouts for 105/110 and 100/90). My grandkids need a 100/90.
Typical mask layering from out to in is cotton, shop towel, cotton, shop towel, cotton, paper towel.
_*Added later: *_ _With the paper towel insert removed, I can hand wash in very hot water and tide laundry soap, rinse well, hang to drip dry, and after placing in the clothes drier for three – ten minute heat cycles hang in a closet to dry completely._
























For added protection (water proof outer layer) I am now making non-medical sizes105 and 105/110 with or without paper towel covers for our large supply of cloth masks. Once used, we put them in a paper bag for three days before we reuse. Right now there are no active cases of Covid-19 in our three united counties and we are under a mandatory mask order. Once Covid-19 cases start popping up here and there I will start disposing the disposables after each use.


----------



## calm

nortel'd said:


> Now that three layer non-medical masks can be bought in quantity, I am using my old Singer sewing machine to convert two non-medical masks along with a Bounty paper towel into one disposable.


Oh! That is kind of heavy-duty.
With that mask I would guess that you could spend all day inside a leper colony and survive.


----------



## nortel'd

calm said:


> Oh! That is kind of heavy-duty.
> With that mask I would guess that you could spend all day inside a leper colony and survive.


 No I use it at "Walmart" 







and the above at "Your Independent" and "LCBO".


----------



## calm

nortel'd said:


> No I use it at "Walmart"
> View attachment 20454
> 
> and the above at "Your Independent" and "LCBO".


I gotta tell yuh ..... If I knew that I had to wear this mask (in photo) for the next 3 years ...... I think I would slash-up.


----------



## nortel'd

I am of the opinion Covid-19 will be with us for many years to come. To keep our economy up and running, great fitting masks, safety googles and head coverings will need to be worn by those who want to stay safe when not able to social distance. 

There are now supplies of rectangular three layer non medical masks that some say are better than cloth. But I see people constantly touching this type of mask to make it fit better over their nose. 

Once there is a supply of medical grade N95 masks available for my family to purchase at a drug store (like before Covid-19), my cloth masks will be repurposed as doll hats.


----------



## calm

Well, I am 72 and life needs to be fun and not just productive.
I see no fun happening inside that mask that you posted a photo of.
Life is supposed to be fun.


----------



## Longtimeago

calm said:


> Well, I am 72 and life needs to be fun and not just productive.
> I see no fun happening inside that mask that you posted a photo of.
> Life is supposed to be fun.


That was previous life calm. Now life is about staying alive. It's a whole new world now.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I saw a scene on the news the other day of an ICU situation. There were about 5 or 6 medical personnel probably putting a patient on a ventilator. They were all gowned out with PPE and then I noticed a fairly large picture, probably around 8"x10" of someone, that each person in the room, was hanging around their necks, on their chests. At first I thought they were honouring some patient they knew. I could tell that each picture was of a different person. Eventually I figured out that the picture they carried on their chests, was a picture of themselves. They wore so much PPE that they probably could not tell who they were talking to in the room or who was giving them an order. I suppose knowing who your individual co-workers are would be very important in an ICU room. It was interesting to see their solution.


----------



## calm

When this virus trip first happened, they mentioned these self photo's.
The claim was to set the patient at ease because of all the gear.
A smiling human face.
I remember when in early march and when seeing totally masked nurses 24-7 in TV-Land had viewers afraid to go to the hospital.
The story might well of been story time to have viewers feel good.


----------



## andrewf

I think most people's fear of going to the hospital was hospital-acquired infection, not fear of medical staff in PPE.


----------



## calm

andrewf said:


> I think most people's fear of going to the hospital was hospital-acquired infection, not fear of medical staff in PPE.


You may have a point.


----------



## OptsyEagle

To be honest, I kind of thought the pictures of the smiling staff, when conducting an emergency life or death activity, was a little tacky at that time, but I associated the pictures to the need to know who exactly was in the room. I suspect that is vital and with their face coverings, which included head and hair cover, shields and masks, it would have been difficult to know who was in there without the identifying pictures. I don't think the pictures help the patients much at all.


----------



## calm

When I saw the photo explanation in TV-Land, it was produced as a human interest story (humanity) and a kindness shown towards the patients and to have them relax.

But that is just TV-Land. Your point about knowing who is in the room is quite valid.


----------



## Longtimeago

The original idea was for patients but I see no reason why it cannot now be for both patients and other staff. Why argue over one or the other being the use.


----------



## AltaRed

Face masks become mandatory in all Walmarts as of Aug 12th. That is fine with me. I mask up going into stores anyway and Walmart has been a bit of a haphazard. I am still in the minority of people wearing masks at Superstore though. There really is nothing problematic wearing a mask for 30-60 minutes while in a Walmart or a Superstore. It's not a real burden.

We are all going to have to get used to using masks. Dr Tam, among others, believe mask wearing will be with us for 2-3 years. It will take quite a long time to get vaccinations through to the majority of the population and no one yet knows how long the anti-bodies will last. We probably won't have a good assessment of where we are headed for another year. We already see how covid cases are increasing at various places around the world when one's guard is let down. It is highly contagious, plain and simple.


----------



## Plugging Along

calm said:


> Do you know where I can get 2 masks with all those above mentioned bonus points?
> Or are you saying that there is no such animal unless I get it tailor made?
> 
> This is what the Tilley Website has available.
> Are these Okay?
> 
> 
> https://www.tilley.com/ca_en/catalogsearch/result/?q=Unisex+Face+Masks%2C+4-pack


just to let you know Costco has restocked the Tilley mask I originally mentioned. The patterns are different but it meets all of my requirements. I just ordered another three sets so I could get the free shipping. So far they are the most comfortable mask and had the best nose wire. They sold out within a few days last time.

Costco Tilley mask pack


----------



## james4beach

I bought a box of disposable masks at London Drugs today. Several types are currently on sale.

I largely use the washable, reusable fabric masks but sometimes I get tired of constantly handwashing these things. So I like having a stash of the cheap disposables, to quickly grab one.

Often I'm only using a mask for a short visit to a store. They aren't going to get very contaminated from brief use like that, so when I get back home I hang the mask up on a hook and let it air out, then re-use it for another trip -- always being very careful to remember which side is the mouth side.



AltaRed said:


> We are all going to have to get used to using masks. Dr Tam, among others, believe mask wearing will be with us for 2-3 years.


Exactly. We have to get use to them. People have to try different styles to find whatever is comfortable for them, and also figure out the usage method and pattern that they like.

For me, it's a box of disposables + about 10 reusable fabric ones. I generally wear a mask for multiple trips, until it seems that it's gotten enough use. I drop the dirty cloth masks into a small bin, and hand-wash the batch once a few dirty ones accumulate.


----------



## james4beach

This is a very interesting case study and makes me more confident that masks actually help the person _wearing_ them.

The case of the unmasked airline passenger contracting COVID adds fuel to a growing debate

This Jan 24 flight, 335 passengers on a Boeing 787, was full of people from Wuhan with 16 infected people. Just *one* passenger caught the virus on the plane. This man was talking with his wife and son. While talking, his mask was not tightly seated, and slipped off. He caught the infection. The other 15 infected people were traced, and believed to have not been infected during the flight, but at some other time.

The paper can be downloaded here, which includes the seat maps so you can see the proximity of the people. It's short, and really worth reading.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7336905/pdf/main.pdf



*The good news:* this seems show that masks really offered significant protection, and that it's not that easy to catch COVID during a flight. Only 1 person on a Boeing 787 caught the infection, but his mask was loose / uncovered.

*The bad news*: everyone else was wearing masks. This seems to suggest that other people wearing masks does not prevent the virus from circulating. Just one quick lapse -- loose mask -- and the guy caught the virus... despite the other infected people wearing the mask.

My takeaway is that both parties have to be wearing masks, for the masks to really offer protection.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> I bought a box of disposable masks at London Drugs today. Several types are currently on sale.


So are you in Canada, or in Portland looking out your office window at the riots?


----------



## Mukhang pera




----------



## andrewf

^ Dumb comment award.

Analogy: only way to not get pregnant is to completely abstain from sex. Lol @ condoms.


----------



## Mukhang pera

^ A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

My post, to the extent it was not obviously somewhat tongue in cheek, suggests masks are fine, but no one should become over confident about their use. 

But what was the point of this 13-minute-long bit of childish nonsense you recently sought to ask us to wade through?:



andrewf said:


> This seems appropriate:


----------



## andrewf

Mukhang pera said:


> My post, to the extent it was not obviously somewhat tongue in cheek, suggests masks are fine, but no one should become over confident about their use.


Unfortunately, for a large contingent of the population, that 'meme' is not a joke, it is an argument.



Mukhang pera said:


> But what was the point of this 13-minute-long bit of childish nonsense you recently sought to ask us to wade through?:


What makes you say it is childish? And what shared in the video is deliberately misleading (like your 'joke'/meme)? Bandannas and other face coverings are not meant used primarily as protecting for the wearer. Do you mock your dentist for wearing a surgical mask while treating you? Basically, such a 'joke' seeks only to confuse the issue.


----------



## Longtimeago

Yawn, two kids in a sandbox arguing.


----------



## andrewf

Very helpful, LTA. At least you're not scolding us.


----------



## bgc_fan

Here's a chart that compares some of the effectiveness of filtering out particles by mask type.




__





One Chart Shows The Best And Worst Face Mask Types, Based on The Latest Research


A simple trick can reveal whether your face mask offers sufficient protection: Try blowing out a candle while wearing it.




www.sciencealert.com


----------



## james4beach

bgc_fan said:


> Here's a chart that compares some of the effectiveness of filtering out particles by mask type.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One Chart Shows The Best And Worst Face Mask Types, Based on The Latest Research
> 
> 
> A simple trick can reveal whether your face mask offers sufficient protection: Try blowing out a candle while wearing it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencealert.com


Thanks.

The cheap surgical masks are interesting because they seem to be pretty effective (and I've heard this from other medical sources as well). Typically they are several layers of synthetic material. I've seen 3 and even 4 layered ones.

They're cheap, well under $1 a mask.

There's also a misconception that these masks only protect others. You gain some protection yourself. I'm shocked when I go to the store (e.g. Safeway in BC) and still see so many people without masks.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The cheap surgical masks are interesting because they seem to be pretty effective (and I've heard this from other medical sources as well). Typically they are several layers of synthetic material. I've seen 3 and even 4 layered ones.
> 
> They're cheap, well under $1 a mask.
> 
> There's also a misconception that these masks only protect others. You gain some protection yourself. I'm shocked when I go to the store (e.g. Safeway in BC) and still see so many people without masks.


I could be wrong, but the blue surgical masks listed in the article are medical grade surgical masks. For them to call them ‘surgical‘ masks, they must be medical grade. The ones at London drugs and at the stores are all called ‘disposable‘ mask which are not the same effectiveness. they are still effective but closer to the hybrid one. You can get medical grade, it they are much more expensive and harder to come by. 

i will had to look at the study more.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Plugging Along said:


> I could be wrong, but the blue surgical masks listed in the article are medical grade surgical masks. For them to call them ‘surgical‘ masks, they must be medical grade. The ones at London drugs and at the stores are all called ‘disposable‘ mask which are not the same effectiveness. they are still effective but closer to the hybrid one. You can get medical grade, it they are much more expensive and harder to come by.
> 
> i will had to look at the study more.


My wife was using one of those cheepy surgical masks that she bought at the drug store recently, to do some spray painting. There was a verylight breeze flowing through the large shed she was in and perhaps that did not help, but not enough of a breeze to effect the painting. Afterward, showed me how the mask was light blue on the inside, where her nose was. Since she had not been to a mirror, I pointed out that her nostrils were also now a light blue colour. The paint went right through it. I imagine her lungs might now have little blue tint to them, as well. She has had no obvious health issues since so hopefully no long term issue.

Now spray paint is certainly going to be aerosol but from what I can see from this paint test, any virus that is not wrapped up in a very large droplet will go right through them like a cricket walking under the Brooklyn Bridge. 

My recommendation. If you love others, wear them, if you also love yourself, get something better.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> My wife was using one of those cheepy surgical masks that she bought at the drug store recently, to do some spray painting. There was a verylight breeze flowing through the large shed she was in and perhaps that did not help, but not enough of a breeze to effect the painting. Afterward, showed me how the mask was light blue on the inside, where her nose was. Since she had not been to a mirror, I pointed out that her nostrils were also now a light blue colour. The paint went right through it. I imagine her lungs might now have little blue tint to them, as well. She has had no obvious health issues since so hopefully no long term issue.
> 
> Now spray paint is certainly going to be aerosol but from what I can see from this paint test, any virus that is not wrapped up in a very large droplet will go right through them like a cricket walking under the Brooklyn Bridge.
> 
> My recommendation. If you love others, wear them, if you also love yourself, get something better.


In all fairness, even the surgical masks will most like not block the fine aerosol of spray paint, which is why N95 or better are recommended for painters. To compare how well the masks help with aerosols, the test one should do is spray the into one disposable mask while wearing on yourself. That would defeat the purpose of painting, but it is interesting on how it protects others. There some that did this on line light the fumes coming out on the other side. 

I try to avoid those in public that don't have masks or don't have them masks on properly.


----------



## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> I try to avoid those in public that don't have masks or don't have them masks on properly.


This is smart. I also keep a lot of distance from them.

Around where I live that basically means staying away from young people.


----------



## OptsyEagle

With the size of a virus in aerosol form, I imagine all non-N95 masks are a little like trying to keep out a swarm of fruit flies with a chain link fence. 

Keeping your distance is probably the only really safe defense.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> This is smart. I also keep a lot of distance from them.
> 
> Around where I live that basically means staying away from young people.


I wouldn't paint that brush on all young people. I have seen a mix pretty much across the board. I am always surprised at that seniors that seem to be really clueless with their masks wrong. 

I do notice that those that don't seem to have their masks on properly (it's mandatory here), are the same ones that don't seem to social distance, be talking on their phones moistly, and are generally clueless to their surroundings. They are more likely to pass by me very closely because I am trying to give the person in front of me space while grocery shopping.

The only good thing is, I have pointed these people to my kids which has made them aware of how people actions impact others. 

The young people here don't seem any worst than others, but I may not be hanging out where the young people are.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> With the size of a virus in aerosol form, I imagine all non-N95 masks are a little like trying to keep out a swarm of fruit flies with a chain link fence.
> 
> Keeping your distance is probably the only really safe defense.


There is evidence that masks still help, so I would not downplay the importance of even a basic mask. There is a study from an infectious disease journal on an Asian flight (over 300 passengers) where several infected people were on board.

Only 1 person caught COVID on the flight and he reported that his mask came off. Notice that he caught it even though everyone else was wearing masks. That strongly implies that masks protect the wearer from COVID.

Clearly the best protection is when both sides wear masks, and I think that includes even the cheap ones. Summary: wear a mask, and avoid people who don't wear masks.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I certainly don't downplay the use of a mask for personal protection but I just want everyone to be aware that it is not a brick wall but more a chain link fence, so back away if you don't want to get infected.

Now to give the readers a little better understanding of the personal protection a homemade mask provides. The fruit fly passing through a 2" opening on a chain link fence is probably a close illustration of the problem, with one very important difference. In our chain link fences we have a 2" opening of wire about maybe 1/8" in diameter. With your cotton mask you probably have the same 2" opening, when compared to a fruit fly size virus, BUT the wire is probably more like 8 inches in diameter AND the fruit fly does not fly back and forth but goes straight on and most of them will stick to the wire, not go through the opening. Also since it is 8" thick, the trajectory of the virus is important in that only the virus coming straight on is not blocked by this wire. So the personal protection a homemade mask can provide is really a way of reducing the amount of virus that can pass through it in comparison to the total amount of virus that is coming at you. With this in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if an average cotton mask could not keep out more then 80% of the initial splatter of virus. Keeping the dosage of your viral infection down is almost as critical as not getting infected at all. So a mask certainly helps. If the dosage is low enough you won't even know you had it. If everyone infected only received 1/5th of the initial dose they actually received, I believe the death toll we have today would be easily divided by 100 and maybe 1000.

I am also very skeptical of those articles about how a person was infected. I am not so sure anyone really knows so although things may have happened the way you recorded it, I doubt we can be even remotely close to being sure about that. Most likely the mask prevented the spread on the airplane, because the infected were wearing them properly and the individual in question was infected asymptomatically before he even boarded the airplane.


----------



## Eder

Airplanes are most likely much safer than a restaurant , bar or classroom for that matter. Hepa filter + on a typical narrowbody (A320, Boeing 737), the air is completely renewed every two to three minutes, or 20 - 30 times every hour. The cabin air is a mix of fresh air (around 60 - 70%) and recirculated air.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> I am also very skeptical of those articles about how a person was infected. I am not so sure anyone really knows so although things may have happened the way you recorded it, I doubt we can be even remotely close to being sure about that. Most likely the mask prevented the spread on the airplane, because the infected were wearing them properly and the individual in question was infected asymptomatically before he even boarded the airplane.


I was referencing an academic study where the researchers had in-depth interviews with _every_ passenger on the plane, tracing their history. There were I believe 16 people who had COVID on the plane, but they traced each one's history and actions, proximity to others, etc.

The researchers believe one man was infected during the flight. Many others were believed to have been infected elsewhere.

One momentary lapse in mask usage, and the guy caught COVID. But I think the good news from the study is that masks do appear to prevent the spread, as long as they are worn.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> I was referencing an academic study where the researchers had in-depth interviews with _every_ passenger on the plane, tracing their history. There were I believe 16 people who had COVID on the plane, but they traced each one's history and actions, proximity to others, etc.
> 
> The researchers believe one man was infected during the flight. Many others were believed to have been infected elsewhere.
> 
> One momentary lapse in mask usage, and the guy caught COVID. But I think the good news from the study is that masks do appear to prevent the spread, as long as they are worn.


I think there is certainly a lot of wishful thinking in that study. There is simply no way anyone can be sure when someone gets infected when an infection can happen, at any time, many, many days before a person gets a test. A plane trip is maybe a few hours in that entire time frame.

I am not saying it didn't happen. I am just saying there is no way to know when it happened.

Think about it.


----------



## Money172375

Have you seen these? Maya Sticker that kills COVID-19

From the innovation of 3 internationally renowned Technion doctors and professors, MayaPatch ™ is a sticker that adheres to any disposable mask or fabric, eliminates viruses and bacteria and prevents their proliferation. This virucidal patch is used in the medical environment in several Israeli hospitals including the famous Rambam hospital in Haifa.
The sticker has been tested on the coronavirus and works, it is used by doctors as well as patients affected by covid-19. The Maya sticker is completely waterproof and prevents viruses of any size from passing through. It captures and then destroys the virus.
The MAYA sticker is composed of nano-fibers soaked with the antiviral agent povidone iodine and is attached to the outer side of surgical masks. The MAYA stickers are produced by 3D electrospinning technology that allow incorporation of povidoneiodine inside the nano-fibers to trap and inactivate viruses.
According to pre- and clinical trials, the MAYA sticker improves the antiviral capacity of surgical masks and face-masks, elongate their effective-period by inactivation of the trapped microorganisms and allow to convert simple home-made face-covers and low quality surgical masks into effective antiviral protectors.
Viruses, transmitted as a result of emitted droplets through coughing, sneezing, breathing, raising of dust, spraying of liquids, toilet flushing, etc. The MAYA Sticker activity is based on three mechanisms of action:
a) Improved filtration of aerosols and saliva droplets by means of low nanometric porediameter and low porosity. The pores are in order of magnitude of tens to hundreds nanometers, versus tens to hundreds of microns in standard surgical masks.
b) Capture of the viruses due to the unique chemical-physical properties of the fiber and the multilayer structure of the sticker.
c) Inactivation (neutralization) of the viruses trapped in the sticker by the biocidal material.
*MAYA STICKER*
*+* Anti-septic | Anti-Viral Covid-19 Anti Virus *+* Waterproof | Active virucid
*+* Active Process 24H
*+* Used in medical environment
*+* Easy to stick on any type of mask
*+* Clinically validated at Technion
*+* Approved by the Israeli Ministry of Health
*+* Daily used in Israeli hospitals
*+* Suitable for public transports
*+* Suitable for retirement homes
*+* *Capture and neutralize the virus
+* Can be touched by hands during and after use


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I'm shocked when I go to the store (e.g. Safeway in BC) and still see so many people without masks.


I had to wear a mask for the first time the other day (required, visiting in a hospital) and it was ok. They also screened all people coming in, no temperatures just questions. 

I have noticed many more people wearing masks in stores here in MB (some stores require it) but also noticed many of those people are constantly breaking the 2m rule. Many people (masked and unmasked) are now shopping like normal, browsing, touching items they are not buying, etc. 

I did notice a few people reacted to me not wearing a mask, as in, they steered clear of me which is a nice effect.


----------



## agent99

Money172375 said:


> Have you seen these? Maya Sticker that kills COVID-19
> 
> From the innovation of 3 internationally renowned Technion doctors and professors, MayaPatch ™ is a sticker that adheres to any disposable mask or fabric, eliminates viruses and bacteria and prevents their proliferation. This virucidal patch is used in the medical environment in several Israeli hospitals including the famous Rambam hospital in Haifa.
> The sticker has been tested on the coronavirus and works, it is used by doctors as well as patients affected by covid-19. The Maya sticker is completely waterproof and prevents viruses of any size from passing through. It captures and then destroys the virus.


But are Israelis using that patch? The case and death rate in Israel are about same as USA.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I am always suspicious of these new developments that sound like the holy grail but don't get picked up by the governments or our medical community. They seem to want to sell it to us, directly. Why? Of course they don't have any problem finding a few doctors that are willing to sing its praises after they pay them.

Anyway, I will wait until someone unbiased does some testing. Most of those studies, on their website, don't seem to relate directly to the patches and therefore are probably there to confuse and give the impression of scientific success. I also worry about the long term effect of breathing my air through that disinfectant material.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> I have noticed many more people wearing masks in stores here in MB (some stores require it) but also noticed many of those people are constantly breaking the 2m rule. Many people (masked and unmasked) are now shopping like normal, browsing, touching items they are not buying, etc.
> 
> I did notice a few people reacted to me not wearing a mask, as in, they steered clear of me which is a nice effect.


Interesting that people are breaking the distancing rule. Everyone seemed to be so careful at the time I left Winnipeg. I guess they relaxed over the summer.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Interesting that people are breaking the distancing rule. Everyone seemed to be so careful at the time I left Winnipeg. I guess they relaxed over the summer.


Yes, it has changed a fair bit even though the case numbers have risen a fair bit in the city weeks after phase 3 started. Not sure if the masks are making people "feel safer" or they're falling back into their old ways again.


----------



## nathan79

In BC, we had our rate of new infections down to near zero a couple months ago despite few people at the time wearing masks. Now, with more people than ever wearing masks, we're setting records for new infections.

People have been shopping in grocery stores throughout the pandemic and not catching COVID, so making masks mandatory in stores will have little or no impact on new infections. It seems like at best it could have a marginal impact, and at worst it could make people feel overconfident and become lax on social distancing.

The main thing that changed since spring is that people are gathering in large groups in confined spaces. Masks should be required in certain settings, such as hospitals or anywhere else that groups of people spend time in fairly confined spaces. Passing by someone at the grocery store is a low risk activity compared to prolonged proximity in smaller spaces.


----------



## OptsyEagle

nathan79 said:


> In BC, we had our rate of new infections down to near zero a couple months ago despite few people at the time wearing masks. Now, with more people than ever wearing masks, we're setting records for new infections.
> 
> People have been shopping in grocery stores throughout the pandemic and not catching COVID, so making masks mandatory in stores will have little or no impact on new infections. It seems like at best it could have a marginal impact, and at worst it could make people feel overconfident and become lax on social distancing.
> 
> The main thing that changed since spring is that people are gathering in large groups in confined spaces. Masks should be required in certain settings, such as hospitals or anywhere else that groups of people spend time in fairly confined spaces. Passing by someone at the grocery store is a low risk activity compared to prolonged proximity in smaller spaces.


Yes. Longer exposure to others. who are infected, is infinitely worse then a shorter time, but depending on the concentration of infection that infected person exhibits, you could still receive a lethal dose, in a very short time, especially if you have a compromised immune system yourself. A mask will most likely reduce that dose of infection by another 80%. For many, that reduction in viral dose will be a life saving reduction. 

In my opinion, anywhere you cannot be sure to be more then 6 feet away from other people you should wear a mask. A retail store is definitely one of those and probably the easiest place to wear a mask.


----------



## :) lonewolf

nathan79 said:


> In BC, we had our rate of new infections down to near zero a couple months ago despite few people at the time wearing masks. Now, with more people than ever wearing masks, we're setting records for new infections.


 That is because masks only make matters worse. Many would come in contact with the virus & not even know they they came in contact with the virus though wearing a mask will increase the odds of getting sick with the virus. The virus is going to go through the mask the moisture from the mask makes breeding ground & lower oxygen levels lowers the immune system. No talk of exercise or healthy living to fight virus. Just unhealthy lock downs social distancing to lower ones social life do the complete opposite of oxygen therapy lower oxygen levels And put everyone out of work so they can turn to alcohol & drugs for better health. Why do the sheeple put trust in government ?


----------



## cainvest




----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> (video)


That was pretty interesting, thanks! I like this comment under the video:

Holy **** it's almost as if all the doctors in the world are right.​


----------



## OptsyEagle

Plus, I imagine the flames on the other dummy would mostly be on the OUTSIDE of the mask and not the inside. Another important point that the video does not outline.

Masks on both people is getting very close to a 6 foot social distance. Not quite, but very, very close.


----------



## Eder

Sounds like differing opinions are escaping from professionals, worth a read. Seems it has been endorsed by 447 doctors.






__





Open letter - Docs4opendebate


Open letter from medical doctors and health professionals to all Belgian authorities and all Belgian media. September 5th 2020 We, doctors and health professionals, wish to express our serious concern about the evolution of the situation in the recent months surrounding the outbreak of the...




docs4opendebate.be







*Masks*

Oral masks belong in contexts where contacts with proven at-risk groups or people with upper respiratory complaints take place, and in a medical context/hospital-retirement home setting. They reduce the risk of droplet infection by sneezing or coughing. Oral masks in healthy individuals are ineffective against the spread of viral infections.


Wearing a mask is not without side effects. Oxygen deficiency (headache, nausea, fatigue, loss of concentration) occurs fairly quickly, an effect similar to altitude sickness. Every day we now see patients complaining of headaches, sinus problems, respiratory problems and hyperventilation due to wearing masks. In addition, the accumulated CO2 leads to a toxic acidification of the organism which affects our immunity. Some experts even warn of an increased transmission of the virus in case of inappropriate use of the mask.


Our Labour Code (Codex 6) refers to a CO2 content (ventilation in workplaces) of 900 ppm, maximum 1200 ppm in special circumstances. After wearing a mask for one minute, this toxic limit is considerably exceeded to values that are three to four times higher than these maximum values. Anyone who wears a mask is therefore in an extreme poorly ventilated room.


Inappropriate use of masks without a comprehensive medical cardio-pulmonary test file is therefore not recommended by recognised safety specialists for workers. 


Hospitals have a sterile environment in their operating rooms where staff wear masks and there is precise regulation of humidity / temperature with appropriately monitored oxygen flow to compensate for this, thus meeting strict safety standards.


----------



## agent99

Interesting and entertaining test! At least demonstrates quite well the effectiveness of masks vs spray mist droplet size a starter fluid canister produces. But only when the source and the target are stationary. If the source and target were walking toward each other, as in a supermarket aisle, the results could be different.

But does the test model the vapour droplet size we produce when we just breath, talk or shout or sing? A spray can is designed to produce a certain range of droplet sizes. There will always be a distribution of droplet sizes and those that we produce are likely quite different from those from a spray can.. Some may fall down within 6ft. Some may remain suspended for some time. When we pass someone in the supermarket aisle or elsewhere, we may breath in those microscopic suspended droplets. We now know that even Trump knew in February that the virus was in the air we breath.

I still have trouble with the reliance on untested home made masks. Before Covid, I bought N-95 masks for about $2 each. Why can't we all get approved N95 or equivalent or better masks now? There has been a lot of time to ramp up production.


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## Mukhang pera

Eder said:


> Sounds like differing opinions are escaping from professionals, worth a read. Seems it has been endorsed by 447 doctors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Open letter - Docs4opendebate
> 
> 
> Open letter from medical doctors and health professionals to all Belgian authorities and all Belgian media. September 5th 2020 We, doctors and health professionals, wish to express our serious concern about the evolution of the situation in the recent months surrounding the outbreak of the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> docs4opendebate.be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Masks*
> 
> Oral masks belong in contexts where contacts with proven at-risk groups or people with upper respiratory complaints take place, and in a medical context/hospital-retirement home setting. They reduce the risk of droplet infection by sneezing or coughing. Oral masks in healthy individuals are ineffective against the spread of viral infections.
> 
> 
> Wearing a mask is not without side effects. Oxygen deficiency (headache, nausea, fatigue, loss of concentration) occurs fairly quickly, an effect similar to altitude sickness. Every day we now see patients complaining of headaches, sinus problems, respiratory problems and hyperventilation due to wearing masks. In addition, the accumulated CO2 leads to a toxic acidification of the organism which affects our immunity. Some experts even warn of an increased transmission of the virus in case of inappropriate use of the mask.
> 
> 
> Our Labour Code (Codex 6) refers to a CO2 content (ventilation in workplaces) of 900 ppm, maximum 1200 ppm in special circumstances. After wearing a mask for one minute, this toxic limit is considerably exceeded to values that are three to four times higher than these maximum values. Anyone who wears a mask is therefore in an extreme poorly ventilated room.
> 
> 
> Inappropriate use of masks without a comprehensive medical cardio-pulmonary test file is therefore not recommended by recognised safety specialists for workers.
> 
> 
> Hospitals have a sterile environment in their operating rooms where staff wear masks and there is precise regulation of humidity / temperature with appropriately monitored oxygen flow to compensate for this, thus meeting strict safety standards.


Eder, tread carefully here.

I read the entire doctors' "open letter" and it is a scandalous document that needs to be suppressed.  Good lord, it comes perilously close to supporting what Lonewolf has been crying in the wilderness. 

While, at first blush, it seems to be founded on reason and logic, and gives _me_ some pause, I am not known as being a particularly deep or independent thinker. So not good to expose us easily-influenced types to such tripe.

I think most here would be outraged to read conclusory statements in the letter such as: 

_Covid-19 is not a cold virus, but a well treatable condition with a mortality rate comparable to the seasonal flu. In other words, there is no longer an insurmountable obstacle to public health._

Not to mention fatuous pap such as:

I_f we take this collateral damage into account, the current policy is out of all proportion, the proverbial use of a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

We find it shocking that the government is invoking health as a reason for the emergency law._

And, if the foregoing were not enough, this appalling admission:

_We are questioning the legitimacy of the current advisory experts, who meet behind closed doors._
So Eder, lest ye find yourself banned, excommunicated, I would urge you to foreswear your foolish ways and refrain from posting egregious disinformation, links to, or references to same.


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## Beaver101

^ Watch, Eder is gonna come back with his 'freedom of speech" or "freedom of beliefs" which is his prerogative. If he thinks he thinks he can influence/convince others (the non-deep thinkers) to follow here with such nonsense or better yet the lack of common sense, he's only making a fool of himself. 

For one, who the hell cares what those quacks (medical doctors?) are "still debating" there at this stage of the pandemic ... kind of late. Debate = talk = CHEAP!!!!


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## andrewf

I must be missing all the surgeons dropping dead from asphyxiation due to mask-wearing.


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## Eder

I'm not trying to influence anyone although Mukhang seems to have in spite of his thickly veiled sarcasm (I love your eloquent pseudo-opprobrious response). Pretty sure most here who read the letter (maybe 5 or 6 people) 1st checked to see if it was American doctors...if not then kill the messenger.

Does seem a breath of fresh air that experts much smarter than those in this thread would come to a different conclusion than our forum readers. I do like scientific scrutiny...seems others prefer to keep the earth flat for now.

Ohhh... I see already one Easterner has called Flemish doctors quacks already ....predictable haha.


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## bgc_fan

Oh, so you brought this up to debate? Then let's start discussing some of the issues on this open letter.

_In 1948, the WHO defined health as follows: ‘Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or other physical impairment’...
Belgium also has a duty, from the point of view of subscribing to fundamental human rights, to include these human rights in its decision-making when it comes to measures taken in the context of public health. - _So they use a definition of health that allows them to actually disregard sickness, so they've decided to go in that route, basically if people are inconvenienced, that inconvenience outweighs actual death and sickness.

_The WHO originally predicted a pandemic that would claim 3.4% victims, in other words millions of deaths, and a highly contagious virus for which no treatment or vaccine was available. This would put unprecedented pressure on the intensive care units (ICUs) of our hospitals._ - Yes they did. Of course that was based on information at the time and modeling on what they knew. I doubt that model included social distancing or other measures. But being people of scientific background, you'd think they'd acknowledge the fact that things change with new information.

_The PCR test works with cycles of amplification of genetic material – a piece of genome is amplified each time. Any contamination (e.g. other viruses, debris from old virus genomes) can possibly result in false positives._ - Basically the point is that there are false positives that could inflate the number of infected. So, here's a corollary, if there are more false positives, that's going to lead to a decrease in mortality rate which make COVID less scary because a smaller percentage of people who get exposed will die. At any case, it's a good indication of how much it spreads.

_Lockdown has not led to a lower mortality rate._ - Depends on the numbers that are being used, but using Sweden as an example is a little misleading. They didn't go into official lockdown; however, when you look at their social distancing guidelines, they look pretty similar: Did Sweden's coronavirus strategy succeed or fail?. At any case, other studies would show that there have been an increase in mortality based on historical data: Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19)

_The penetration of these microorganisms is prevented by an advanced defence mechanism – the immune system. A strong immune system relies on normal daily exposure to these microbial influences. Overly hygienic measures have a detrimental effect on our immunity. Only people with a weak or faulty immune system should be protected by extensive hygiene or social distancing._ - Ah, going for the hygiene hypothesis that because of our obsession to cleanliness our immune system is compromised. Except that's not quite what the hygiene hypothesis is proposing. It's proposing increase of asthma and other autoimmune disease due to reduced exposure to healthy microbes which leads to a hyperactive immune system. Not a system more susceptible to sickness.

_Hospitals have a sterile environment in their operating rooms where staff wear masks and there is precise regulation of humidity / temperature with appropriately monitored oxygen flow to compensate for this, thus meeting strict safety standards._ - Interesting argument, but given that everyone in hospitals are wearing masks outside of the surgical suites and they aren't dropping dead, I'd say that this is a little weak.

_The vast majority of the positively tested “infected” persons are in the age group of the active population, which does not develop any or merely limited symptoms, due to a well-functioning immune system.
So nothing has changed – the peak is over. _- It's really a matter of opinion and mislead with regards to well-functioning immune system. More that likely they are young enough so that any pre-existing conditions aren't as problematic. Sure, there's an increase in infections amongst younger people, but you increase the numbers of infected and sooner rather than later vulnerable populations are going to get hit.

_Survey studies on influenza vaccinations show that in 10 years we have only succeeded three times in developing a vaccine with an efficiency rate of more than 50%. Vaccinating our elderly appears to be inefficient. Over 75 years of age, the efficacy is almost non-existent._ - Seems they aren't acknowledging the effectiveness of vaccines. Efficacy is in reference to clinical studies while effectiveness is the real world usefulness and relates to herd immunity. Efficacy and effectiveness. Even if the elderly aren't directly protected, the fact that others have the vaccine and are unlikely to carry and pass the contagion onto the elderly will help.

_Meanwhile, there is an affordable, safe and efficient therapy available for those who do show severe symptoms of disease in the form of HCQ (hydroxychloroquine), zinc and AZT (azithromycin). Rapidly applied this therapy leads to recovery and often prevents hospitalisation. Hardly anyone has to die now._ - Actually no. The studies are pretty conclusive that those with severe symptoms don't benefit. The argument made here is a little strange, because there are indications that there may be some effectiveness of HCQ, zinc and AZT at early onset, but that window seems a little narrow, and at that time, people don't show the severe symptoms, that usually comes later when there seems to be reduced effectiveness.

The rest of the letter has nothing to do with science.


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## Eder

I didn't bring it up for debate, just posting critical views of 447 trained professionals. I fear to be cancelled over this blasphemy. Please forgive me.


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## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> I didn't bring it up for debate, just posting critical views of 447 trained professionals. I fear to be cancelled over this blasphemy. Please forgive me.


Then why did you bring it up? A forum is meant to debate, so if you didn't want to debate it, then you just want to stir the pot.


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## andrewf

Eder said:


> I didn't bring it up for debate, just posting critical views of 447 trained professionals. I fear to be cancelled over this blasphemy. Please forgive me.


Oh, the persecution complex.


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## OptsyEagle

I have been saying this for a long time. You are probably never going to get a conclusive study to answer the questions you so dearly want answered, when it comes to Covid-19. So with that in mind, you have absolutely no choice but to try your best to put aside your personal wants and desires (that part is extremely important) and use your own common sense on what you think works well, works better then nothing, does not work at all and what might actually put you at higher risk.

I don't actually need too much more information regarding the usefulness of masks, but I still read every opinion and look at every study to see if my thinking needs to change or at least a little tweaking here or there.


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> I have been saying this for a long time. You are probably never going to get a conclusive study to answer the questions you so dearly want answered, when it comes to Covid-19.


That's true with just about anything related to science. I'm willing to be open minded, but I'm going to be critical of new information. If someone isn't going to provide counterpoints to my criticism, then I can pretty much reject what they are saying.


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## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> That's true with just about anything related to science. I'm willing to be open minded, but I'm going to be critical of new information. If someone isn't going to provide counterpoints to my criticism, then I can pretty much reject what they are saying.


Sure. I am just surprised how many people simply reject a point because someone with a PhD did not write it. We already know that people with PhD's are wrong quite often. We already know that one PhD will say one thing and then soon thereafter, someone else with a PhD will come along and say the opposite.

At some point in time one is going to have to take the information they have and put together some kind of theory of their own. Just make sure you understand the difference between what you think might be the way something works and what you know may be the way something works. That is almost as critical as putting aside your personal wants and desires, which should never play any part in the construction of your scientific theories, but for most Canadians, it usually makes up the largest part of them.


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## sags

Some Americans, and apparently President Trump and the Republicans, choose to heed the advice on masks from Senator Rand Paul (an eye doctor) and Dr. Scott Atlas (a radiologist) over the advice of Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx and tens of thousands of experts in infectious diseases and emergency room doctors.

Would Senator Paul and Dr. Atlas debate a cardiac surgeon on how they could better perform triple bi-pass heart surgery ?

I think not, so why is decades of expertise in infectious diseases considered any different ?

If you are looking for an "outlier" offering a different opinion than the consensus opinion of thousands of other experts, you can always manage to find some.


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Sure. I am just surprised how many people simply reject a point because someone with a PhD did not write it. We already know that people with PhD's are wrong quite often. We already know that one PhD will say one thing and then soon thereafter, someone else with a PhD will come along and say the opposite.


The thing about using "experts" because they have a PhD or medical degree is that it can be the appeal to false authority argument. Just because you are proficient in one field, doesn't mean that you are equally proficient in other fields. The whole point about PhDs and specialization is that you can be an expert in a specific field of study, not that you are an expert on all matters. 



sags said:


> Senator Rand Paul is an MD. He is an eye doctor, with no experience in infectious diseases and yet he challenges someone like Dr. Fauci's decades of expertise.
> 
> Trump's expert Dr. Atlas is a radiologist, but he challenges Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx and all the experts as well, despite having limited or no expertise in infectious diseases.
> 
> A doctor is a doctor is a doctor...........doesn't work that way. Some doctors are experts in one field and others in another.


And that is it precisely. Another example is the "Frontline physicians" video, where they got a bunch of doctors dressed in lab coats to talk about the fact that the government is withholding treatment based on hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and zinc. The fact of the matter is that they weren't frontline physicians, and never dealt with people sick with COVID. No Evidence That Doctor Group in Viral Video Got Near COVID 'Front Lines'


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## Eder

Anyway I enjoyed the article and reinforces some of my views so happy so many PHD's agree . Many professionals on this continent also share these views, but we like to ostracize any black sheep in the herd.

As far as myself debating these doctors views....at least I know I know nothing so how could I debate this topic? I guess I could just post a myriad of links to try appear intelligent?


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## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Anyway I enjoyed the article and reinforces some of my views so happy so many PHD's agree . Many professionals on this continent also share these views, but we like to ostracize any black sheep in the herd.
> 
> As far as myself debating these doctors views....at least I know I know nothing so how could I debate this topic? I guess I could just post a myriad of links to try appear intelligent?


The problem is when all the "experts" agree, and they're wrong. 
This happens again and again and again.
We need to find a way to cultivate and encourage civil dissent, and rigourous debate. That's how we move forward as a society.


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## sags

I grew up wearing glasses. I spent my life trying to play sports wearing glasses. 

Years ago, I developed cataracts on my eyes and the "experts" removed and replaced the lens, giving me perfect vision for the first time in my life.

At some point the science is settled. The doctors know enough to make conclusions.

They knew they could restore my perfect vision with a simple painless procedure. I trusted their expertise gained over decades.

The experts made mistakes with this "novel" virus, but they now know enough to save many people from dying. At some point the science is settled.


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## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> Anyway I enjoyed the article and reinforces some of my views so happy so many PHD's agree . Many professionals on this continent also share these views, but we like to ostracize any black sheep in the herd.
> 
> As far as myself debating these doctors views....at least I know I know nothing so how could I debate this topic? I guess I could just post a myriad of links to try appear intelligent?


And here we see where the lack of education arises and need for the critical thinking. Basically "look they think like me" so it must be true. "Look they don't think like me" so it must be fake. Though I have to give you the second point that you know nothing.


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## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> And here we see where the lack of education arises and need for the critical thinking. Basically "look they think like me" so it must be true. "Look they don't think like me" so it must be fake. Though I have to give you the second point that you know nothing.


Let's not direct this argument at the poster but at the argument itself. The article posted was a very good article. That fact that Eder agrees with some or most of it, as I do as well, does not take away from it nor should it add to it.

Let's just read the points on the article and debate or reaffirm those as we see them. A posters opinion, is just an opinion until they state their reasons.

To be honest, I agree with almost everything in the article Eder posted but I still think the use of masks has its place. For me it is a no-brainer. I only need to put on a mask when I go into a retail establishment (maybe once a week) and only need it on for perhaps the 15 to 30 minutes I am in there. If I go into another retailer, that day, it is not difficult to put on a new mask. 

Now, with that said, what about the people wearing the same mask, not for 15 minutes but for 8 hours. I am not sure how protective that is and I have no idea if it might create breathing issues or not. I am glad they have them on when I am in there but I also don't want to see them hurt or infected. Unfortuneately, they will need to work out that one for themselves. Just let me know what they plan to do and I will adjust my own plan accordingly.


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## MrMatt

sags said:


> I grew up wearing glasses. I spent my life trying to play sports wearing glasses.
> 
> Years ago, I developed cataracts on my eyes and the "experts" removed and replaced the lens, giving me perfect vision for the first time in my life.
> 
> At some point the science is settled. The doctors know enough to make conclusions.
> 
> They knew they could restore my perfect vision with a simple painless procedure. I trusted their expertise gained over decades.
> 
> The experts made mistakes with this "novel" virus, but they now know enough to save many people from dying. At some point the science is settled.



Actually your example is a wonderful case of the science not being settled.

For a long time, most of your life, the clear and settled answer was glasses.
Then the new clear answer was a lens replacement.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Between the answer being "glasses" and the answer being "lens replacement", there was a lot of discussion and disagreement.

With COVID, and almost every other real problem, we're in that middle ground where we don't have all the facts and the science is still evolving.
If you don't encourage discussion and debate, you never move from glasses to lens replacement.

We should keep investigating and debating masks vs face shields. The science isn't settled, it's still bouncing around.


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Let's just read the points on the article and debate or reaffirm those as we see them. A posters opinion, is just an opinion until they state their reasons.
> 
> To be honest, I agree with almost everything in the article Eder posted but I still think the use of masks has its place. For me it is a no-brainer. I only need to put on a mask when I go into a retail establishment (maybe once a week) and only need it on for perhaps the 15 to 30 minutes I am in there. If I go into another retailer, that day, it is not difficult to put on a new mask.


I did, and the response was, "I'm not going to debate them, I'm just going to post them". The problem is that people are posting their opinions as facts. It's one thing to have an opinion based on facts, but another to try to justify it as, "Well, it just is." or "I'm entitled to my opinion and I think it's true" but don't actually offer anything substantive to justify.

As for the open letter itself, what points strike you as unfair on what I said? Oh, and anyone can sign that letter, there's nothing to actually check that you are a medical professional.


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## Beaver101

Eder said:


> I'm not trying to influence anyone although Mukhang seems to have in spite of his thickly veiled sarcasm (I love your eloquent pseudo-opprobrious response). *Pretty sure most here who read the letter (maybe 5 or 6 people) 1st checked to see if it was American doctors...if not then kill the messenger.*
> 
> Does seem a breath of fresh air that experts much smarter than those in this thread would come to a different conclusion than our forum readers. I do like scientific scrutiny...seems others prefer to keep the earth flat for now.
> 
> Ohhh... *I see already one Easterner has called Flemish doctors quacks already .*...*predictable haha*.


 ... since you're so good at predicting ... so which is it with the group of quacks? Was the group comprised of American doctors or Flemish doctors? I admit I didn't read that letter and am not going to because right of the bat, the first paragraph clashes (aka make no sense other than a display of mumble-jumble of questionable intelligence) with the last paragraph (re-paste here):



> *Oral masks belong in contexts where contacts with proven at-risk groups or people with upper respiratory complaints take place, and in a medical context/hospital-retirement home setting. They reduce the risk of droplet infection by sneezing or coughing*. Oral masks in healthy individuals are ineffective against the spread of viral infections.
> ...
> Hospitals have a sterile environment in their operating rooms where staff wear masks and there is precise regulation of humidity / temperature with appropriately monitored oxygen flow to compensate for this, thus meeting strict safety standards.


... so is it saying that hospital staff (all type) who are "healthy" enough should not wear masks? [I like andrewf's post #755 response - LMAO]. So what is the "whole" idea of this group's "debate" on the (in)effectiveness on the "use of masks" other than what I see is the selfish notion of not getting oneself infected? Some experts ... quacks.

Look, if these quacks don't want to wear masks, that's fine. so be it. Maybe they can debate that the current pandemic is a hoax too. Just don't b1tch when they land over at the ICU-ward with Covid19.


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## Beaver101

MrMatt said:


> Actually your example is a wonderful case of the science not being settled.
> 
> For a long time, most of your life, the clear and settled answer was glasses.
> Then the new clear answer was a lens replacement.
> 
> I'll let you in on a little secret. Between the answer being "glasses" and the answer being "lens replacement", there was a lot of discussion and disagreement.
> 
> With COVID, and almost every other real problem, we're in that middle ground where we don't have all the facts and the science is still evolving.
> If you don't encourage discussion and debate, you never move from glasses to lens replacement.
> 
> We should keep investigating and debating masks vs face shields. The science isn't settled, it's still bouncing around.


 ... now it's the masks vs face shields debate???? when the thread is about the "use of masks"... the typical deflections, twisting, spinning ploy.

I think we should be thankful that Covid19 ain't a true an "air-borne" disease otherwise the science will never be ever settled or maybe until the dinosaurs resurrect.

Added: the science has been settled between glasses and lens replacement in sags' case ... he ain't gonna to be able to see properly / play sports with perpetual Coke-bottle-bottoms glasses when there's a better alternative other than being eventually blind too even with the Coke-bottle-bottom glasses. Ie. your post makes a hell alot of realistic sense, NOT in sags' situation.


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## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> ... now it's the masks vs face shields debate???? when the thread is about the "use of masks"... the typical deflections, twisting, spinning ploy.
> 
> I think we should be thankful that Covid19 ain't a true an "air-borne" disease otherwise the science will never be ever settled or maybe until the dinosaurs resurrect.
> 
> Added: the science has been settled between glasses and lens replacement in sags' case ... he ain't gonna to be able to see properly / play sports with perpetual Coke-bottle-bottoms glasses when there's a better alternative other than being eventually blind too even with Coke-bottle-bottom glasses. Ie. your post makes a hell alot of realistic sense, NOT.


yes, the science was "settled" on glasses, now it's "settled" on lens replacement, given enough time I'm sure it will "settle" on something else.
That's my point, as new knowledge and understanding happens, the "settled science" changes.
My point is, with his example, that it's not necessarily settled, and things change, and this is in many cases, objectively BETTER for the people involved.

The whole idea of "settled" is quite inappropriate in the context of science.


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## Eder

My opinion means nothing but PHD's posting their findings should most likely be taken seriously. Beaver I think you should read the article...bgc...I think people that say I know nothing may be a bit short in a few departments although I believe I know as much as you about the advantages of nonsurgical mask usages.

Anyway I will continue to post critical essays where ever dogma is brought into question...flame away or stay in your safe place


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## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> My opinion means nothing but PHD's posting their findings should most likely be taken seriously. Beaver I think you should read the article...bgc...I think people that say I know nothing may be a bit short in a few departments although I believe I know as much as you about the advantages of nonsurgical mask usages.
> 
> Anyway I will continue to post critical essays where ever dogma is brought into question...flame away or stay in your safe place


It's up to you, but I'm pointing out criticisms and if you don't agree, you are free to post counterpoints. Otherwise, I'd disagree on your knowledge base based on what I've seen of your posts.


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## OptsyEagle

bgc_fan said:


> I did, and the response was, "I'm not going to debate them, I'm just going to post them". The problem is that people are posting their opinions as facts. It's one thing to have an opinion based on facts, but another to try to justify it as, "Well, it just is." or "I'm entitled to my opinion and I think it's true" but don't actually offer anything substantive to justify.
> 
> As for the open letter itself, what points strike you as unfair on what I said? Oh, and anyone can sign that letter, there's nothing to actually check that you are a medical professional.


I kind of assumed that Eder's article WAS his debate on his opinion.


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## MrMatt

Eder said:


> My opinion means nothing but PHD's posting their findings should most likely be taken seriously. Beaver I think you should read the article...bgc...I think people that say I know nothing may be a bit short in a few departments although I believe I know as much as you about the advantages of nonsurgical mask usages.
> 
> Anyway I will continue to post critical essays where ever dogma is brought into question...flame away or stay in your safe place


I know and have interacted with a number of PhD's, and even worked as a RA for several.
PhD isn't some magical "expert", they're the expert in some small area, and have convinced other PhD's that they proceeded in reasonable manner in their research.

That being said, I've found that while most are reasonable, some feel that their Dr status makes them experts in a much wider field than they are actually knowledgeable about.

Also I'll sit back on something I learned long ago, if you can't explain the basic concept and logic to a normal high school student, you either don't understand it, or you're wrong.
This is often applied to finance, but it works for pretty much every field out there.

To paraphrase leaders in quantum mechanics "I can't really explain it, because nobody actually understands it".


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## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> I kind of assumed that Eder's article WAS his debate on his opinion.


And I pointed out spots where I disagreed. His response was essentially don't shoot the messenger.


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## calm

MrMatt said:


> I know and have interacted with a number of PhD's,
> To paraphrase leaders in quantum mechanics "I can't really explain it, because nobody actually understands it".


I feel the same way about those people with a PhD in economics or a PhD in Christendom.

"I can't really explain it, because nobody actually understands it".


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## MrMatt

calm said:


> I feel the same way about those people with a PhD in economics or a PhD in Christendom.
> 
> "I can't really explain it, because nobody actually understands it".


I guess you don't have many discussions with Economists.


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## james4beach

I'm still really disappointed with mask usage I'm seeing in the Vancouver area.

I was all around town today. I took an Uber, and the driver had a mask that didn't cover his nose. Later he slid it down and it covered nothing, while we're both in the car. I opened the rear windows to get fresh air flow, to compensate.

Then I went into a retail store (necessary visit) for some furniture shopping. The sales agent was a bit flaky with mask usage, initially wearing one but then forgetting about it. Probably not too bad, but I'm surprised he didn't keep his mask on all the time.

Later I passed by various places and saw restaurants and bars crowded with people, and several gyms where people are huffing and puffing, working out *very* close to each other -- no masks. Obviously all of these places are high risks for infection: indoors, close proximity with other strangers, no masks.

I stopped at a drug store to pick up something. The man in line behind me had no mask and kept creeping right up against me, so I abandoned the line and went elsewhere to stay away from him as I try to always watch the radius of space around me.


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## andrewf

In Ontario, I'm finding the mask compliance to be pretty good, at least where I frequent.


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## kcowan

MrMatt said:


> ...
> The whole idea of "settled" is quite inappropriate in the context of science.





Eder said:


> My opinion means nothing but PHD's posting their findings should most likely be taken seriously.


Common sense is not very common, especially amongst specialists. And science is never settled.

James, my experience in Vancouver mirrors yours and I have also noticed a decline in the last 4 weeks.


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## Money172375

Mask usage is very strong in my area of Ontario. In fact, I felt pretty stupid after the fact.......I popped into a Tim Hortons to buy a coffee. As soon as I walked in, I saw 3 or 4 tables with 2-4 people each chatting away with no masks, I was like “what the hell!”. 

completely forgot I was in a restaurant.....even though I didn’t see anyone actually eating or putting a cup to their mouth. It just felt highly unusual to see a room of people with no masks. 

It also hits me when I see people hugging or shaking hands on tv shows or movies....I’m like “ you can’t do that!”.


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## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> *Mask usage is very strong in my area of Ontario. In fact, I felt pretty stupid after the fact.......I popped into a Tim Hortons to buy a coffee. As soon as I walked in, I saw 3 or 4 tables with 2-4 people each chatting away with no masks, I was like “what the hell!”. *
> 
> completely forgot I was in a restaurant.....*even though I didn’t see anyone actually eating or putting a cup to their mouth. It just felt highly unusual to see a room of people with no masks.*
> 
> It also hits me when I see people hugging or shaking hands on tv shows or movies....I’m like “ you can’t do that!”.


 ... the irony. I would be interested on what was posted at that TH's door as far as mask requirements go plus the dining-in requirements for contact tracing.


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## Plugging Along

Beaver101 said:


> ... the irony. I would be interested on what was posted at that TH's door as far as mask requirements go plus the dining-in requirements for contact tracing.


Our city, the mask requirement for restaurants is you wear then until you get to your table and if you need to leave the table to go to the restroom. While at the table, you don’t have it back on even if you are done eating and drinking, but it’s preferred.


----------



## agent99

Plugging Along said:


> Our city, the mask requirement for restaurants is you wear then until you get to your table and if you need to leave the table to go to the restroom. While at the table, you don’t have it back on even if you are done eating and drinking, but it’s preferred.


That is the way it is it seems, just about everywhere. I just can't see it. Four or more likely unrelated people can sit a few feet apart at a TH or any restaurant table with no mask. But if you walk in alone you need a mask to buy a coffee or to go to a table. 
We have not been to a restaurant since March. And just once ate at an outdoor patio that had similar rules. Not happy with that either.


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> That is the way it is it seems, just about everywhere. I just can't see it.


They are favoring the economy over public safety.

It's rather odd how they are running things right now. In Winnipeg we start manditory masks on Monday (for indoor public places) due to our numbers rising. They stated that bars have caused a significant spread here but instead of closing them they decided to have them close early, 11pm ... what a joke! They also mentioned the spread increase from schools where masks are manditory already and no changes there even though groups are limited to 10 people on Monday.


----------



## agent99

I can see that there it is no easy task to balance economy and safety. But some of the safeguards seem strange. Bars will stop serving at 11pm and close at 12. Probably no reason for patrons not to double order to carry them through to 12? 
One of weird things here, is that are totally closing strip joints. No explanation of how Covid is transferred there! However, the problem seems to be contact tracing. Patrons invariably fill in fake names!


----------



## james4beach

I went to a bar last night with a friend. Only outdoor patios, lots of distance even between the two of us. The bar stopped serving early and told us it's last call. No big deal. You can drink at 11 pm, you can drink at 8 pm. What's the difference?

For me it was still a full experience of going out. Hardly any different than usual, minor inconveniences.

Closing the bars fully would also be OK, depending on how rapidly the disease is spreading. A good solution might be lots of warming heaters outdoors and continuing the outdoor bar experience. Very possible to do ... I even remember doing that in the past at something like -10 degrees, with appropriate heating. You can still drink while wearing jackets and hats.


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## sags

Wearing masks has become a fashion statement. They are a fashion accessory now.

You slide your Gucci mask down to wear it around your neck or dangle it from your ear at every opportunity to let people you follow the rules but are a cool rebel who flaunts them just because you can.


----------



## Plugging Along

agent99 said:


> That is the way it is it seems, just about everywhere. I just can't see it. Four or more likely unrelated people can sit a few feet apart at a TH or any restaurant table with no mask. But if you walk in alone you need a mask to buy a coffee or to go to a table.
> We have not been to a restaurant since March. And just once ate at an outdoor patio that had similar rules. Not happy with that either.


not quite sure what the problem is. The idea is that the people that your are going out with are in your bubble, and at least traceable back in case one of you have has COVID. The masks when not at the table is to reduce transmission that are strangers. I believe the idea is that if you are going out with people for dinner, then you are pretty confident they do not have it, and if they do you can trace it back.

I have gone to quite a few restaurants, mainly with my family. We try to take a patio of possible, if not, we try and ask for the seat that seems the ‘safest’. went it for dinner for the first time with a a few friend. I know these people very well, and they are very cautious. Two of them even got tested before as they are in higher risk categories (a principle of a large school and the other medical professional). we all hung out at the table witjout our masks and put them on when we left. Not a big deal.


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> Wearing masks has become a fashion statement. They are a fashion accessory now.
> 
> You slide your Gucci mask down to wear it around your neck or dangle it from your ear at every opportunity to let people you follow the rules but are a cool rebel who flaunts them just because you can.


So far anyone I have seen wearing an expensive mask or a more fashionable one has bee. Wearing them correctly. If they want toshow a little fashion or bling, I have no problems with that. At least they are wearing it. I have yet to see a ‘fashionable’ being worn improperly. Even with my kids, the ones that have the ‘cool’ masks are the ones wearing it properly.

Perhaps your posts is a bias Against those that have money. show me a picture of someone wearing Gucci mask in context. I would much rather someone flex an expensive Gucci mask Properly than no Mask at all.


----------



## sags

Many masks have been designed merely as fashion accessories. They don't even offer adequate protection.

I see lots of people with their mask pulled down or holding it by the strings as they walk about in stores. People think they only need to wear it when they are within a couple feet of someone else. The virus is airborne and hangs in the air for a period of time. Walking through the mist can cause infection, but people pull down or remove their masks when there is nobody close to them. The virus is also transported by air ventilation systems in enclosed spaces.
If a person is sitting in a restaurant and removes their mask, they can be easily exposed through the ventilation system. The first cases in China tracked the spread of the virus in a restaurant by the ventilation system. Schools are the same. Wear masks during classes and then remove them for recess ?

We are trying to have it both ways and it doesn't work that way with the virus.









Does Billie Eilish’s Gucci face mask even help prevent coronavirus?


The Bad Guy singer’s Grammy Awards look proved oddly ahead-of-the-curve – but are expensive designer brand face masks effective at preventing the spread of Covid-19?




www.scmp.com


----------



## Plugging Along

sags said:


> Many masks have been designed merely as fashion accessories. They don't even offer adequate protection.
> 
> I see lots of people with their mask pulled down or holding it by the strings as they walk about in stores. People think they only need to wear it when they are within a couple feet of someone else. The virus is airborne and hangs in the air for a period of time. Walking through the mist can cause infection, but people pull down or remove their masks when there is nobody close to them. The virus is also transported by air ventilation systems in enclosed spaces.
> If a person is sitting in a restaurant and removes their mask, they can be easily exposed through the ventilation system. The first cases in China tracked the spread of the virus in a restaurant by the ventilation system. Schools are the same. Wear masks during classes and then remove them for recess ?
> 
> We are trying to have it both ways and it doesn't work that way with the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Billie Eilish’s Gucci face mask even help prevent coronavirus?
> 
> 
> The Bad Guy singer’s Grammy Awards look proved oddly ahead-of-the-curve – but are expensive designer brand face masks effective at preventing the spread of Covid-19?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scmp.com


So you have not personally seen the Gucci mask in real life. It has been very clear that wearing a mask provides protection to others. The masks reduce the large droplets being let in the air. in the link you sent, all the wearers are them properly. I get very frustrated with people wearing their masks incorrectly, but you seemed to focus on the expensive designer mask. How do you know the fashion masks are not doing their job (if worn correctly)? I am pretty informed about which masks offer better or worse coverage, and find it very difficult to tell from 2 meters if a person mask offers that. You must be getting very close to people and are extremely skilled to see what the material is made out of, how many layers it has, and if there is a filter. I am unable to do that without inspecting the mask.
Looking at the link you sent, without physical inspection Front he pictures all of the mask would provide the same amount of protection as the other cloth masks. The only ones that might be questionable from the picture alone are the LV, MarineSerre, Nemens, and potentially Palm Angels. However,I know the Palms Angles is actually very good mask. getting A more expensive won’t protect the wearer more, it doesn't protect the those around them less. So what’s the big deal if someone wants a mask for fashion purposes too. One of my doctor is a fashionista and has designer custom outfits made for her. She also now gets a matching mask made to her specifications which allow her to cover her N95 and surgical mask. She pays over $100 a mask. It she likes it. 

I have weighed the current risk and environment in my city and have decided to send my kids to school. i am still going out to restaurants. I have changed how I will help my elderly father. My wise dad‘s advice was you can’t stop living, and just don’t be stupid about, He agrees he is old and he needs to be extra careful and general isolates. He doesn’t think my family should. the psychological impacts for the kids and families will be huge in the future If we just try to stop living and hide from the virus. i a. Of a personal belief that we should do what is reasonable to reduce transmission and balance livelihood vs lives. I dont allow my family to do large gatherings and we take many precautions, but I am not telling them not to goto school. 

Since there there Is no known end to this virus, we cannot just stop living in hopes that ‘someday’ everything will be over. People need to find a way to modify their lives to a world that may never have a vaccine. That’s includes going to Work, school, and connecting with people I. The safest way possible. That’s my belief and how we are choosing to live. If you feel it’s too risky, then please stay at home.


----------



## Eder

I agree wearing a mask makes a lot of people better looking.


----------



## like_to_retire

Plugging Along said:


> show me a picture of someone wearing Gucci mask in context. I would much rather someone flex an expensive Gucci mask Properly than no Mask at all.


I have certainly seen people incorrectly wearing all types of masks, matters not if it's a cheap cloth mask or a Gucci mask (which I take to mean any dark colored material mask with a logo). 

It doesn't seem to matter, rich or poor, there appears to me to be a large percentage of people that simply don't understand how to wear a mask. The number one problem is wearing it below the nose from my observation.











ltr


----------



## agent99

Plugging Along said:


> not quite sure what the problem is. Not a big deal.


Maybe there IS a problem? You are making the assumption that friends are not carrying the virus because you know them well?? Do you know who they have been in contact with? You assume that people at the next table are far enough away and that the virus is not present in air that is circulated by the HVAC system. Relying on contact tracing means that you and your friends accept that you may test positive and will need to find out why.

Covid cases in Canada have gone up significantly since businesses started to open up. Not surprising really. And they will go up even more as more people find a need to move more to indoor public facilities.

It is just a trade off. Allow businesses to open and accept the increased number of cases. Economy needs to be propped up, but there is a cost. Restaurant patrons and those visiting other public facilities have to accept that they are at risk.

As someone in a most susceptible age group, I do not expose myself or my family. We have no NEED to go to restaurants. Instead, we regularly get take out, buy our own beer and wine and eat and drink in much more pleasant surroundings than any restaurant. From time to time we have friends or family over and we also visit them. These visits have been on waterfront decks with great views and we take care to keep our distance. Winter will pose more of a problem. We may be back to Skype visits!

You are younger and have made your own decision. That is your choice, so long as you don't endanger others.


----------



## like_to_retire

Plugging Along said:


> I have gone to quite a few restaurants,


I think the visiting of restaurants is very specific to a person's situation, just like investing, so no judgments should be made.

Myself, you couldn't pay me enough to go to a restaurant. I'm in the 70 year old crowd with a bit of a lung problem, and so, if I get that pesky virus, I'm dead.

Why would I go to a situation that puts my very life at risk to eat a sandwich? I can eat quite comfortably in my safe home.

And there's the rub. Everyone's situation is different. Just as everyone is different in investing, everyone is different with respect to the risk they might take with respect to the virus.

ltr


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## kevin11mz

like_to_retire, yeah, it all depends on a specific situation and a person.


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## Beaver101

Eder said:


> I agree wearing a mask makes a lot of people better looking.


 ... too bad, it also beautifies the internal ugliness of such people.


----------



## Plugging Along

like_to_retire said:


> I have certainly seen people incorrectly wearing all types of masks, matters not if it's a cheap cloth mask or a Gucci mask (which I take to mean any dark colored material mask with a logo).
> 
> It doesn't seem to matter, rich or poor, there appears to me to be a large percentage of people that simply don't understand how to wear a mask. The number one problem is wearing it below the nose from my observation.
> 
> 
> View attachment 20663
> 
> 
> ltr


My comments were meant at Sags that he was referring to the designer or expensive masks. I was trying to say exactly what you illustrated better than I did. That was that he needs to stop criticizing the wealthy because they have designer masks, but rather look at if they are wearing masks properly. He needs to stop villainizing the wealthy, both groups are stupid in wearing masks. I may have taken sags more literal as he tends to demonize the wealthy.


----------



## like_to_retire

Plugging Along said:


> I may have taken sags more literal as he tends to demonize the wealthy.


Yes, his number one pastime it seems. He also wishes to tax them to death and to "pay their fair share". 

ltr


----------



## Plugging Along

agent99 said:


> Maybe there IS a problem? You are making the assumption that friends are not carrying the virus because you know them well?? Do you know who they have been in contact with? You assume that people at the next table are far enough away and that the virus is not present in air that is circulated by the HVAC system. Relying on contact tracing means that you and your friends accept that you may test positive and will need to find out why.
> 
> Covid cases in Canada have gone up significantly since businesses started to open up. Not surprising really. And they will go up even more as more people find a need to move more to indoor public facilities.
> 
> It is just a trade off. Allow businesses to open and accept the increased number of cases. Economy needs to be propped up, but there is a cost. Restaurant patrons and those visiting other public facilities have to accept that they are at risk.
> 
> As someone in a most susceptible age group, I do not expose myself or my family. We have no NEED to go to restaurants. Instead, we regularly get take out, buy our own beer and wine and eat and drink in much more pleasant surroundings than any restaurant. From time to time we have friends or family over and we also visit them. These visits have been on waterfront decks with great views and we take care to keep our distance. Winter will pose more of a problem. We may be back to Skype visits!
> 
> You are younger and have made your own decision. That is your choice, so long as you don't endanger others.


Perhaps there is a problem. But in my case I don't believe so (mind you does any really believe they are the problem). I do make assumptions about my friends. My friends know that I am very cautious regarding COVID, am in a higher risk category, and take care of my elderly parents who are at the highest risk. They are also cautious, but not as much as me at time. I do have a pretty good idea who they hang out with and their families and know they respect me enough to help keep me safe by not meeting if there are any concerns. Example is one of their kids ended up at a party with more kids than should have been there a few weeks ago. My friend had the whole family tested just to be sure. My other friend their is a medical professional tested too before meeting up. They take these precautions not just for me, but they do not want to spread it either. I am very careful on who I go into close contact with because my group of contacts all have kids in school and activities. That being said, I seldom go indoors to visit people outside my immediate family. This was one of the exceptions because the patio was freezing out even with heaters. 

When going into the restaurants or most businesses, I am also very careful. I ask to use the washroom first and walk through to see what the set up is in terms of safety protocols regarding flow of traffic, social distancing, barriers, staff processes and how well staff are enforcing the rules including making people sanitize prior to walking in, if people seem to be following the rules. If not, I leave. I also do check to see if I can see how the HVAC may be blowing, and if possible will ask the staff to sit me at the table I believe is the safest (dependant at the time) 

To minimize the risk to others, if I believe I have done something 'riskier' such at going inside a restaurant, I will reduce my exposure to other for the next couple of weeks. I would say I am extra diligent with social distancing but I don't think it's possible to be more so as I am ready quite vigilant about it. I will not visit my elderly parents, or only go to their place fully masked and will help them with what they need but I have them in a different room until I can disinfect. We have even changed our sleeping arrangements if we think there is any chance of transmission.

I know my protocols do not guarantee not catching or spreading the virus. However, I do believe I have taken as much of the risk out as I can without not going out at all. As you said, it is a balance. In my family and my life, we have taken the stance that we much learn to live in a world where the virus is prevalent without it stopping from us living life.


----------



## agent99

Plugging Along said:


> Perhaps there is a problem. But in my case I don't believe so (mind you does any really believe they are the problem).


Good point! And does sound like you are being more careful than most. 

My "kids" are likely more in your demographic and live in a different city from us. Only occasional visits. My wife and I and our close friends are more likely your parents age (or older!) Probably quite different lifestyle. About all we are missing out on at present, is dining out. What we will miss, is getting away for the winter. Can't see that happening this winter.


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## james4beach

I emailed Safeway's corporate contact and got back a reply. I wrote that I saw, at times, as little as 50% of customers wearing masks and asked if they can require masks, like other grocery stores now do in BC.

They said that they are following Public Health guidance, and masks are not mandatory. Their (boilerplate) response talks a lot about masks for their employees and how much cleaning they do.

That shows a lack of understanding of the situation. I'm talking about *customers* bringing in COVID and infecting other customers through airborne transmission. Has nothing to do with their employees wearing masks, and nothing to do with hell well they wipe down the store.

Any suggestion for how I can put more pressure on Safeway? Is there a better way to contact someone there?


----------



## Retired Peasant

Perhaps pressure Public Health instead, since Safeway (and likely others) are following that guidance. Or shop elsewhere.


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## Eder

There is no point to masks if social distance is maintained...not sure why people don't get it.


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## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I emailed Safeway's corporate contact and got back a reply. I wrote that I saw, at times, as little as 50% of customers wearing masks and asked if they can require masks, like other grocery stores now do in BC.
> 
> They said that they are following Public Health guidance, and masks are not mandatory. Their (boilerplate) response talks a lot about masks for their employees and how much cleaning they do.
> 
> That shows a lack of understanding of the situation. I'm talking about *customers* bringing in COVID and infecting other customers through airborne transmission. Has nothing to do with their employees wearing masks, and nothing to do with hell well they wipe down the store.
> 
> Any suggestion for how I can put more pressure on Safeway? Is there a better way to contact someone there?


Tell them you won't step foot in their store as long as they don't require masks. Send a message to the store manager as well.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Tell them you won't step foot in their store as long as they don't require masks. Send a message to the store manager as well.


Thanks. I did actually find the store manager today and talked with him a bit.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> There is no point to masks if social distance is maintained...not sure why people don't get it.


But that's the problem in some grocery stores. There is NOT enough space to distance oneself. It depends on the layout of the particular store.

I'm still shopping at this Safeway because it's actually more spacious than some of my other options. The guidance on masks is clear: whenever you are unable to leave enough distance between people, or you come into close proximity with strangers, everyone needs to wear masks.


----------



## :) lonewolf

Retired Peasant said:


> Perhaps pressure Public Health instead, since Safeway (and likely others) are following that guidance. Or shop elsewhere.


 Public health does not have the power to make up laws that goes against human rights. The tyrants in public health trying to be dictators should be put on trial & hung for crimes against humanity. There is no pandemic are people blind to the fact that 50% of the people are not dying in the streets.


----------



## :) lonewolf

james4beach said:


> But that's the problem in some grocery stores. There is NOT enough space to distance oneself. It depends on the layout of the particular store.
> 
> I'm still shopping at this Safeway because it's actually more spacious than some of my other options. The guidance on masks is clear: whenever you are unable to leave enough distance between people, or you come into close proximity with strangers, everyone needs to wear masks.


 Come on J4B do you really believe a mask is going to save you. No wonder people hailed Hitler. Everyone of you that wear masks have no back bone to fight for freedom & you do not deserve liberty or freedom. You all deserve to be slaves to dictators who offer you no safety with masks. Next will be to poison you with vaccine for a pandemic that does not even make the top ten causes of death. The numbers have been BS from the start. 

Everyone that gives up freedom & liberty for a little bit of safety deserves neither liberty, safety or freedom. People have died to give us our freedom & the sheeple are dumber then the dumbest sheeple.

Those that do not take comfort in the herd again will be forced to fight the dictators with no help from the sheeple.

Are the sheeple completely blind to history. Throughout history trusting in power tripping government was always more dangerous then any virus & it still is. People I see wearing masks, doing contract tracing following orders of the dictators sicken me. Governments around the world are power tripping & the sheeple want to be their slaves.


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## james4beach

:) lonewolf said:


> Come on J4B do you really believe a mask is going to save you.


I think it reduces the probability I will catch the bug, and when others wear it too, I think it reduces the probability any of us catch it.

Plus I think that elderly people and people with health problems have a right to go out into the world and do the shopping they need. By wearing a mask, I'm making it safer for them, and making them more comfortable. That's a pretty big win, otherwise those people have to stay trapped indoors.

But instead if I wear a mask (very minor inconvenience) my elderly neighbours and people with chronic conditions can actually go out and do what they need.

Masks create freedom.


----------



## james4beach

Here's one guy who won't be wearing a mask. He also flew from Ireland to Canada, then violated the quarantine (required upon entering Canada) to go to a public rally in downtown Toronto!


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Here's one guy who won't be wearing a mask. He also flew from Ireland to Canada, then violated the quarantine (required upon entering Canada) to go to a public rally in downtown Toronto!


And law enforcement does nothing, they "de-escalate".


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> Here's one guy who won't be wearing a mask. He also flew from Ireland to Canada, then violated the quarantine (required upon entering Canada) to go to a public rally in downtown Toronto!
> ...


 ... so that's the ugly monkey who has been flaunting the laws. I don't know why he isn't in jail by now. Are they afraid he's gonna catch Covid 19 there? Or they gonna to to continue letting this super-spreader (by now) continue with is sh1t-disturbing-spreading .... "Look at me!!!! I'm not a sheeple, I'm special!!!!"


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I emailed Safeway's corporate contact and got back a reply. I wrote that I saw, at times, as little as 50% of customers wearing masks and asked if they can require masks, like other grocery stores now do in BC.
> 
> They said that they are following Public Health guidance, and masks are not mandatory. Their (boilerplate) response talks a lot about masks for their employees and how much cleaning they do.
> 
> That shows a lack of understanding of the situation. I'm talking about *customers* bringing in COVID and infecting other customers through airborne transmission. Has nothing to do with their employees wearing masks, and nothing to do with hell well they wipe down the store.
> 
> Any suggestion for how I can put more pressure on Safeway? Is there a better way to contact someone there?


I do appreciate the stores that have not made it mandatory for masks, but I do understand their difficult position especially if they are a national chain. Not all Cities and provinces have the same COVID scenario and masks may not be warranted in all Cities. I can say store managers will not implement masks on an individual basis without head office approval. 

You are better off putting pressure on you municipality and council to get a by law. That was the deciding factor here. There is no argument with the stores, or negative publicity, it becomes a standard. This is where I would focus my time instead of every store I need to visit.


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## kcowan

I felt more comfortable shopping at La Comer in PV than in City Market (Loblaws) in West Vancouver. Masks were mandatory, Kids not allowed. Gloves handed out. Carts washed down. Shoes in soaking and then drying bin. And areas where people congregate, viz bakery and butcher, had extensive space to avoid traffic jams. And here you have to pass through the bakery to get to the main store. Passing is mandatory and with inadequate room.

Fresh Street has made masks mandatory here.


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## MK7GTI

Plugging Along said:


> I do appreciate the stores that have not made it mandatory for masks, but I do understand their difficult position especially if they are a national chain. Not all Cities and provinces have the same COVID scenario and masks may not be warranted in all Cities. I can say store managers will not implement masks on an individual basis without head office approval.
> 
> You are better off putting pressure on you municipality and council to get a by law. That was the deciding factor here. There is no argument with the stores, or negative publicity, it becomes a standard. This is where I would focus my time instead of every store I need to visit.


Yellowknife is a prime example of this. Once Walmart made masks mandatory there was a noticeable drop off of people shopping there. Personally, I will not step foot in that building until the masks rule is lifted. Just last week Independent made masks mandatory at their 2 locations here. Again, I will not step foot in either store until the mask rule is lifted. Co-op still doesn't require masks and because of this I will spend my money there instead. 

There are pockets of this country that don't require masks anywhere and Yellowknife might be at the very top of that list.


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## OptsyEagle

MK7GTI said:


> Yellowknife is a prime example of this. Once Walmart made masks mandatory there was a noticeable drop off of people shopping there. Personally, I will not step foot in that building until the masks rule is lifted. Just last week Independent made masks mandatory at their 2 locations here. Again, I will not step foot in either store until the mask rule is lifted. Co-op still doesn't require masks and because of this I will spend my money there instead.
> 
> There are pockets of this country that don't require masks anywhere and Yellowknife might be at the very top of that list.


That's great. By the way, what is your view towards having to stop for red traffic lights and not being allowed to drive 150 km/hr or faster on a public road?


----------



## MK7GTI

OptsyEagle said:


> That's great. By the way, what is your view towards having to stop for red traffic lights and not being allowed to drive 150 km/hr or faster on a public road?


Your reply is trolling. Perhaps next time comment on the previous response.


----------



## Beaver101

MK7GTI said:


> *Yellowknife is a prime example of this*. Once Walmart made masks mandatory there was a noticeable drop off of people shopping there.* Personally, I will not step foot in that building until the masks rule is lifted. *Just last week Independent made masks mandatory at their 2 locations here. Again, I will not step foot in either store until the mask rule is lifted. Co-op still doesn't require masks and because of this I will spend my money there instead.
> 
> There are pockets of this country that don't require masks anywhere and Yellowknife might be at the very top of that list.


 ... I can see on why that's the case in Yellowknife ... what's the population over there versus Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto or Montreal?

Currently in Toronto, masks are required (by law) in every store, restaurant plus public transit ... if I defy wearing one, then the choice is to stay home and starve. Or possibly die if I get a heart attack as no hospital is going to admit you without one. That's provided the paramedic agrees to touch / load me onto their ambulance first.

PS: You pay for the ambulance service here in Toronto. Not sure about Yellowknife though.


----------



## like_to_retire

MK7GTI said:


> Yellowknife is a prime example of this. Once Walmart made masks mandatory there was a noticeable drop off of people shopping there. Personally, I will not step foot in that building until the masks rule is lifted.


In most cities in Ontario masks are mandatory indoors - everywhere - all stores. Case closed.

What would you do in this case where you live - would you actually starve because you didn't want to wear a mask? It's such a simple thing to pit your life against.

ltr


----------



## MK7GTI

Beaver101 said:


> ... I can see on why that's the case in Yellowknife ... what's the population over there versus Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto or Montreal?
> 
> Currently in Toronto, masks are required (by law) in every store, restaurant plus public transit ... if I defy wearing one, then the choice is to stay home and starve. Or possibly die if I get a heart attack as no hospital is going to admit you without one. That's provided the paramedic agrees to touch / load me onto their ambulance first.
> 
> PS: You pay for the ambulance service here in Toronto. Not sure about Yellowknife though.


Population of NWT is about 40,000 and 20,000-22,000 of which live in Yellowknife or just outside the city. 

Before people chase me with pitch forks on mask wearing let me explain a few things in comparison to the major city or area YOU live in. Yellowknife is 725km north of the closest town in Alberta which is High Level with a population of 3000 people. The border has been 'closed' since mid March. For anyone who leaves the territory and returns you must isolate for 14 days. We have had 5 total cases with the last one being cleared in late April. NOT ONE CASE HAS BEEN IN THE HOSPITAL. Walmart made masks mandatory like 45 days ago? Independent just last week. Although I agree they should be mandatory down south, it doesn't make since up here. 

It's been 6 months since the world shut down and now, just now in the last few weeks the city wants to start making masks mandatory everywhere. If you lived in a community this isolated would you be happy that they are just NOW doing what the rest of the country has done months ago? You need to understand that for the most part people in the city are not the least bit concerned about catching Covid.


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## Beaver101

> ... You need to understand that for the most part people in the city are not the least bit concerned about catching Covid.


 ... hmmm, in that case Albertans should recommend to the sneaky Americans to skip Alaska altogether and detour/visit our friendly Yellowknife / NWT instead. No masks required ... no quarantine of any kind. "All" visitors welcomed.


----------



## Eder

No reason to wear a mask in Yellowknife haha...save that for people living in density. Most of Canada outside larger cities wearing a mask is pointless but used as a panacea for those in fear.


----------



## Beaver101

^


Eder said:


> No reason to wear a mask in Yellowknife haha...save that for people living in density. *Most of Canada outside larger cities wearing a mask is pointless but used as a panacea for those in fear.*


 ... so is skirting the law also in those areas.


----------



## Eder

Which law is deemed to be skirted? I also avoid places like WalMart and Loblaws as well that have mandatory masks if possible...most people in those places have no concept of distancing...


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> No reason to wear a mask in Yellowknife haha...save that for people living in density. Most of Canada outside larger cities wearing a mask is pointless but used as a panacea for those in fear.


That's not true. COVID spread aggressively in rural Manitoba. COVID also has been spreading in rural Alberta and there are even people hospitalized in rural areas.

I think it's more accurate to say that one needs to keep up to date with current outbreaks and infection areas. If you live in an area with known COVID cases, you must wear a mask around strangers. Same if there are any cases *close* to where you live, even if rural.

The only time wearing a mask is pointless is if you are in some zone that has nil cases, but this is pretty rare in Canada and the US.


----------



## Eder

I guess we'll disagree...social distancing and clean hands is much more important than a non surgical mask.

If we eliminate Calgary & Edmonton there are only 100 active cases in the rest of Alberta...none in ICU.


----------



## Money172375

I haven’t been following it too closely....covid fatigue......but it appears transmission on planes is low.......are masks the reason?


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I haven’t been following it too closely....covid fatigue......but it appears transmission on planes is low.......are masks the reason?


Plane situation is a tough one to decipher because there is no case tracking relating to passengers, so we really don't know if anyone is picking it up on planes.


----------



## :) lonewolf

MK7GTI said:


> Yellowknife is a prime example of this. Once Walmart made masks mandatory there was a noticeable drop off of people shopping there. Personally, I will not step foot in that building until the masks rule is lifted. Just last week Independent made masks mandatory at their 2 locations here. Again, I will not step foot in either store until the mask rule is lifted. Co-op still doesn't require masks and because of this I will spend my money there instead.
> 
> There are pockets of this country that don't require masks anywhere and Yellowknife might be at the very top of that list.


 I was in Walmart several times since they made it their so called mandatory rules which goes against your human rights. I never wore a mask & refuse to wear one. (go to mask excemptions.ca)


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> No reason to wear a mask in Yellowknife haha...save that for people living in density. Most of Canada outside larger cities wearing a mask is pointless but used as a panacea for those in fear.


Believe it or not, but most Canadians live in Canada's largest cities.

The social distancing rules should be sensitive to local conditions, but consider that you may be seeing people from higher incidence area moving to areas with lower incidence.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I haven’t been following it too closely....covid fatigue......*but it appears transmission on planes is low*.......are masks the reason?


 ... + James' post #835 ... not sure that's the case if this is published (Sept. 24, 2020 is pretty recent):

List of recent potential COVID-19 exposures on flights through British Columbia

CP24 publishes a list from time to time (every 2 weeks?, can't recall exactly) where there're active covid19 found amongst the passengers of those flights - from everywhere, domestic, international ... just not from outerspace..yet.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> I was in Walmart several times since they made it their so called mandatory rules which goes against your human rights. I never wore a mask & refuse to wear one. (go to mask excemptions.ca)


 ... did it ever occurred to you that someone's rights are infringed when you infect them with your germs? I don't suppose you never heard of the word " pandemic", never mind understood it. Yes, it's your right to be ignorant and selfish.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> I guess we'll disagree..*.social distancing and clean hands is much more important than a non surgical mask.*
> 
> If *we eliminate Calgary & Edmonton *there are only 100 active cases in the rest of Alberta...*none in ICU.*


 .. all laughable.


----------



## Money172375

Yes, I’ve been seeing that. Jt they aren’t really confirming that spread is occurring.....just that you may have been on a plane or seated near someone infected.

why isn’t contact tracing happening with airlines As James mentioned in #835?

i can’t even Enter the Costco Optical section (it even isn’t a separate room) without completing a questionnaire.


----------



## Beaver101

^ How do you know that contact tracing isn't happening with the airlines? And even so, how effective is that when people aren't even following the "rules" (aka laws) of 14 days quarantine.

Just look/readup on that ugly monkey's (pic from post #817) movement ... blatant ignorance + violations of "all" the EmergencyAct and it's beyond me why he isn't in jail by now. All it takes is just one 1 person to spread this "infectious" disease to others ... creating other spreaders + superspreaders (possibly with this bozo).

And then there's the strip club fiasco in TO of contact tracing ... mostly false info given ... so much for the effectiveness of actual (aka proper) contact tracing. 

I think contact tracing only works well in employment setting where your ID can't be falsified and your movement(s) can actually be traced ... and provided the employer is cooperative.


----------



## MK7GTI

andrewf said:


> Believe it or not, but most Canadians live in Canada's largest cities.
> 
> The social distancing rules should be sensitive to local conditions, but consider that you may be seeing people from higher incidence area moving to areas with lower incidence.


Considering I moved from the GTA to Yellowknife, I know. Thanks for your input hahaha.


----------



## Plugging Along

Eder said:


> I guess we'll disagree...social distancing and clean hands is much more important than a non surgical mask.
> 
> If we eliminate Calgary & Edmonton there are only 100 active cases in the rest of Alberta...none in ICU.


Except there are cases in the smaller cities too. I have friends who live in the surrounding areas of the larger Cities. As cases are popping in their smaller towns, they are starting to get more worried. They are at the place where the larger cities where 4 or 5 months ago. Especially with kids going to school, it's changing the landscape. The towns that decided not have a mask by-law are started to get the anti-maskers in their towns. The locals don't like it and some are reconsidering if they want 'those anti-maskers city folk' in their towns to shop and use there services. 

When I go to smaller towns, I do still wear a mask out of consideration for them because coming from a larger City, I could bring it into their community.


----------



## Beaver101

A letter to that maskless guy on the streetcar

This G&M writer is too polite. The non-mask donning TTC riders are simply being indecent beings, advertising "Looook at me, the axxhole!!!!."


----------



## Beaver101

Beaver101 said:


> ... so that's the ugly monkey who has been flaunting the laws. I don't know why he isn't in jail by now. Are they afraid he's gonna catch Covid 19 there? Or they gonna to to continue letting this super-spreader (by now) continue with is sh1t-disturbing-spreading .... "Look at me!!!! I'm not a sheeple, I'm special!!!!"


Anti-masker charged after allegedly breaking quarantine rules to attend massive rally

... a task long overdue of enforcement officers.


----------



## Eder

Ahhh...its nice to be back in the Okanagan...no masks mandatory other than a few national chains. Calgary and Edmonton is out of hand with their BS mask policies.

Here's were Lala Land is going though...can't make this up!









California governor's office tells diners to wear masks 'in between bites'


The office of California Gov. Gavin Newsom has told residents in the Golden State that if they go out to eat, they should be wearing a mask “in between bites” to protect themselves from COVID-19.




www.foxnews.com


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> Anti-masker charged after allegedly breaking quarantine rules to attend massive rally
> 
> ... a task long overdue of enforcement officers.


Well this guy really was asking for it. He was prominent in social media and vocal about not obeying federal quarantine.

He flew into Canada and then refused to quarantine himself. It's a federal law, not a "suggestion".


----------



## Beaver101

^ In another news piece, he said he was going to fight the charges under the Charter ... I say let him. In fact, he can fight it all the way to the SOC. 

Plus it'll be really beautiful to see his faithful social media "followers" help/bail him + her out.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> Well this guy really was asking for it. He was prominent in social media and vocal about not obeying federal quarantine.
> 
> He flew into Canada and then refused to quarantine himself. It's a federal law, not a "suggestion".


This far in, the fact that he was able to break quarantine is a problem.
Lock them up for the quarantine period.
Or at least test first or something.


----------



## james4beach

If anyone here (perhaps in one of the hot zones) is looking for N95 masks, I know of a source through a company in BC which does online deliveries. Message me if interested and I'll send you the link.

The only N95's they have are packs of 20+ which start over $100


----------



## :) lonewolf

Beaver101 said:


> A letter to that maskless guy on the streetcar
> The non-mask donning TTC riders are simply being indecent beings, advertising "Looook at me, the axxhole!!!!."


The mask wearers Look @ me I am a sheep. I turn off my mind trust in government & deprive myself of oxygen. I am more dangerous then any virus I will hail any Hitler & march to Stalin


----------



## james4beach

:) lonewolf said:


> The mask wearers Look @ me I am a sheep. I turn off my mind trust in government & deprive myself of oxygen.


But how do you explain the fact that doctors, surgeons, and nurses have always been wearing masks while doing their jobs?

Think of all the complex surgeries that are being done. The surgeons always wear surgical masks... sometimes for hours. And they are doing the most complex tasks imaginable on patients.

If wearing a mask deprived people of oxygen and impaired their brain function, how is that surgeons *always* wear masks. It simply would not be allowed. But they always wear them. The only negative thing said about surgeons wearing masks is that they can cause glasses to fog up.

Lonewolf, maybe you're trying the wrong kind of mask. Some masks are not very breathable and give a suffocating feeling. The cheap kind of disposable masks (which are similar to surgical masks) are some of the more comfortable ones. You can buy packs of them at around 70 cents each. They don't deprive people of oxygen.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> But how do you explain the fact that doctors, surgeons, and nurses have always been wearing masks while doing their jobs?
> 
> Think of all the complex surgeries that are being done. The surgeons always wear surgical masks... sometimes for hours. And they are doing the most complex tasks imaginable on patients.
> 
> If wearing a mask deprived people of oxygen and impaired their brain function, how is that surgeons *always* wear masks. It simply would not be allowed. But they always wear them. The only negative thing said about surgeons wearing masks is that they can cause glasses to fog up.
> 
> Lonewolf, maybe you're trying the wrong kind of mask. Some masks are not very breathable and give a suffocating feeling. The cheap kind of disposable masks (which are similar to surgical masks) are some of the more comfortable ones. You can buy packs of them at around 70 cents each. They don't deprive people of oxygen.


They can't explain it, because it isn't true, the anti-maskers are just nuts.


----------



## :) lonewolf

james4beach said:


> But how do you explain the fact that doctors, surgeons, and nurses have always been wearing masks while doing their jobs?
> 
> Think of all the complex surgeries that are being done. The surgeons always wear surgical masks... sometimes for hours. And they are doing the most complex tasks imaginable on patients.
> 
> If wearing a mask deprived people of oxygen and impaired their brain function, how is that surgeons *always* wear masks. It simply would not be allowed. But they always wear them. The only negative thing said about surgeons wearing masks is that they can cause glasses to fog up.
> 
> Lonewolf, maybe you're trying the wrong kind of mask. Some masks are not very breathable and give a suffocating feeling. The cheap kind of disposable masks (which are similar to surgical masks) are some of the more comfortable ones. You can buy packs of them at around 70 cents each. They don't deprive people of oxygen.


 I am not playing the game. I trust in my eyes I do not see people dying on mass from COVID instead I see people living their lives in fear & lives being destroyed. Government is causing the problems not Covid. I have studied history & understand how power effects the tyrants. Read the box masks do not protect from virus. There are modern day witch hunters out there locking people in their homes. This has nothing to do with a virus it is about power tripping & control.


----------



## :) lonewolf

MrMatt said:


> They can't explain it, because it isn't true, the anti-maskers are just nuts.


Not all countries doctors wear masks. The mood of the masses effects the thinking of even the highest intellect. Without commitment to reason your mind is a junk heap of invalid theories regardless of knowledge & intellect.

I use mans biological distinguishable trait reason as my standard to gauging self esteem which gives me a huge edge for judging that which is true. For esteem is an omni basic psychological need which entails you are committed to that which is good &TRUE & capable & worthy of living. By having a strong commitment to reason judging truth by the senses & not trusting government for that which is true the mind is a more powerful tool. Since esteem is a judgement their must be a standard used for gauging one esteem. Reason is the best standard.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> I am not playing the game.* I trust in my eyes I do not see people dying on mass from COVID instead I see people living their lives in fear & lives being destroyed.* Government is causing the problems not Covid. I have studied history & understand how power effects the tyrants. Read the box masks do not protect from virus. There are modern day witch hunters out there locking people in their homes. This has nothing to do with a virus it is about power tripping & control.


 ... that's because you're hiding in your basement and not in at a hospital/LTC/nursing home/etc., refusing to see the realit(ies) out there. 

And it is most likely you have never seen a "death (human being)" before and living on the delusions/substances that there is an utopian afterlife.


----------



## Spudd

:) lonewolf said:


> Not all countries doctors wear masks.


Intriguing. What countries do you know where they don't?


----------



## Beaver101

> lonewolf said:
> Not all countries doctors wear masks.





Spudd said:


> Intriguing. What countries do you know where they don't?


 ... well, what's the answer lonewolf? We've been waiting whilst you were able to continuously posting elsewhere, spreading your "facts" aka made-up BS.


----------



## Eder

From the Provincial Health Officer

_*Henry is opposed to her office issuing mandatory mask orders at this point, noting that mask wearing is the lowest on the list of COVID-prevention measures. *_

Meanwhile many people believe masks are the live or die panacea.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Provide the source and then re-read lonewolf's claim plus your own taken out of context post.

No, it's your thinking/opinion that many people believe masks are the live or die panacea ... just as the development of a vaccine as being the silver bullet in eradicating covid19.


----------



## andrewf

In case you guys haven't noticed, the looney bin is missing a nut, and his name is lonewolf.


----------



## Beaver101

^ He's crying for help on this forum with his trolling.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> From the Provincial Health Officer
> 
> _*Henry is opposed to her office issuing mandatory mask orders at this point, noting that mask wearing is the lowest on the list of COVID-prevention measures. *_
> 
> Meanwhile many people believe masks are the live or die panacea.


Masks are a cheap and easy measure.

I'd love to see the list of COVID19 prevention measures, I'm sure I could find items that rank lower than masks, but were simply omited from the list.


----------



## Eder

I only posted Bonnie Henry's view as it corresponds to mine. She didn't provide a list but was commenting on her stance that mandatory mask laws are not useful in BC.


----------



## kcowan

Eder said:


> I only posted Bonnie Henry's view as it corresponds to mine. She didn't provide a list but was commenting on her stance that mandatory mask laws are not useful in BC.


Are either of those views based in science?


----------



## Eder

.


----------



## james4beach

kcowan said:


> Are either of those views based in science?


It's true that Bonnie has said publicly that she does not support mandatory mask requirements, but I thought that was a few months ago. I'm not sure what her current position is.

Bonnie has *always* said that masks must be worn in areas where you cannot maintain enough distance from others. For example masks must be worn on public transit. For more clarification, refer to this interview with her:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bonnie-henry-covid-pandemic-response-british-columbia-1.5721150



From the interview:

*Hanomansing: *We're not wearing masks now. I mean, I'm not wearing one either. Would we be safer right now if we had masks on?

*Dr. Henry:* No. You see, these are the things that we have learned. There are times when you need it — if we were sitting closer together and having this conversation, then absolutely. But, if you can maintain your distance and that's safe, we know that, you know, with a large environment, lots of empty space, this is good. Outside is safer than inside.
If you're walking by somebody on the street, that's not a situation where you're going to pass this virus on. It is much more those indoor settings. Transit is a perfect example, where you can't maintain the distance and it can be helpful to have a mask on. Particularly if you are sick or if you've been exposed to somebody with the virus, then those are important things where you want to stay away from others.

*Hanomansing: *I was under strict instruction from your staff that if any of us had symptoms, not to be here, so that was kind of the first line of defence, I'm sure.

*Dr. Henry:* That's right.​


----------



## james4beach

My own examples. Any time I go to a store (absolutely every time) I always wear a mask. That's because I can't be assured of enough space in the store. I sometimes see seniors at the store, and I don't want to be the guy who infects them and causes them to die.

I never wear a mask when going for a leisurely walk outdoors or through the park. There's huge amounts of fresh air, and I can generally keep a distance from everyone.

Indoors with a visitor is a bit more complicated. Tomorrow, a friend is coming to visit me at home. We will not be wearing masks. The total number of people is 2 so this isn't a big gathering. The game plan is to keep 2 meters apart, plus I will leave the window open for some fresh air, plus I will be running a HEPA air purifier. It's not as good as being outdoors but it's also not as bad as being in a sealed up room, plus we will keep a good distance.

A key point is to keep the gatherings *small*. This simplifies contact tracing in case either of us gets sick. It also reduces the degree of spread of the virus: spreading to +1 person is bad, but not as catastrophic for society as spreading to +8 people.


I'm frustrated by all the complaints I hear about socializing being outlawed or people being under house arrest. These things aren't true and socializing is not outlawed. Just be smart about it, do it outdoors when possible (which I do) and keep the number of people small. Limiting the gatherings to 1 or 2 friends at a time is NOT a massive sacrifice. It is a very minor inconvenience which hardly impacts anyone's quality of life.

The one major sacrifice I have made is that I'm not visiting my parents at all; I'm going to wait for spring. They are over age 70 and it simply isn't worth the risk. We talk on the phone virtually every day instead.


----------



## kcowan

Why would anyone get a flu shot when they are avoiding contact with the virulent Covid virus?


----------



## like_to_retire

kcowan said:


> Why would anyone get a flu shot when they are avoiding contact with the virulent Covid virus?


Do you not get a flu shot every year?

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

kcowan said:


> Why would anyone get a flu shot when they are avoiding contact with the virulent Covid virus?


 ... the same as how does one know that they can't pick up the flu virus by (supposedly) avoiding contact with the Covid one?


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> ... the same as how does one know that they can't pick up the flu virus by (supposedly) avoiding contact with the Covid one?


Myself, I use to get the flu every season as many do - so annoying. But then 8 years ago I decided to start getting the flu shot to see if it would make a difference. I haven't had the flu or a cold in that 8 years. Case closed for me. Anecdotal I know, but my sample of one works for me. 

I got my flu shot this year (a few weeks ago) the very day my pharmacy received it. It takes about two weeks to become fully effective. They say it takes about two weeks after vaccination for antibodies to develop in the body and provide protection against influenza virus infection.

Why wouldn't someone get a flu shot?

ltr


----------



## Retired Peasant

I've never had a flu shot, and I haven't had flu since 1995. Anecdotal I know, but my sample of one works for me.

The likelihood of getting flu seems rather low, given all the hand sanitizing, distancing, and mask wearing.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Could be a number of reasons ... some don't believe in it (the anti-vaxxers kind), some believe the flu shot has lead poison (the paranoid kind), and some react badly. The last reason are for a few folks and I have empathy for them but not the first two.

As for myself, I get it because I have asthma. So if I don't get the shot and catches the even the lowest form of the flu, I'll cough my lungs out. Hence, potentially sharing my viruses with others.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> As for myself, I get it because I have asthma. So if I don't get the shot and catches the even the lowest form of the flu, I'll cough my lungs out. Hence, potentially sharing my viruses with others.


Exactly. I have the same asthma problem. I use to get the flu every year and it was a nightmare. The flu or cold could easily send me to emergency. The flu vaccine was so effective I couldn't believe it. I feel that this is a positive vote for the vaccine compared to respected member "Retired Peasant" who has basically never caught the flu in 30 years. How can this be an indicator of the vaccines efficacy if you never catch the flu?

ltr


----------



## Beaver101

^


> How can this be an indicator of the vaccines efficacy if you never catch the flu?


 ... just like they believe masks (or mouth coverings) don't help or they're immune or that virus(es) don't mutate, I guess.


----------



## like_to_retire

Beaver101 said:


> ^ ... just like they believe masks (or mouth coverings) don't help or they're immune or that virus(es) don't mutate, I guess.


Yeah, or they haven't found themselves in the middle of the night trying to breath after catching the flu or a cold. The feeling, as I'm sure you know is one of breathing "_empty air_". Only those afflicted will understand this.

The flu vaccine has been a godsend for those with asthma or other related breathing conditions. If someone has never had these problems and lucky enough to not catch the flu or colds every year, don't judge the efficacy of these vaccines on your situations.

ltr


----------



## Eder

Well we do know clinical studies show masks do nothing for prevention & transmission of the flu.

from Wired:

The few clinical trials we have of using masks for health care workers to prevent influenza don’t show a clear effect; nor can they even demonstrate that the more substantial N95 respirators work better than surgical masks.


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> Well we do know clinical studies show masks do nothing for prevention & transmission of the flu.
> 
> from Wired:
> 
> The few clinical trials we have of using masks for health care workers to prevent influenza don’t show a clear effect; nor can they even demonstrate that the more substantial N95 respirators work better than surgical masks.


What a weird argument for you to make. All the study points out is that the effectiveness of N95 respirators is the same as surgical masks. There's nothing to state that masks are ineffective. In fact the conclusion states the following:

Despite the lack of evidence, we *would still recommend using facial barriers in the setting of
epidemic and pandemic viral respiratory infections*, but there does not appear to be a difference
between surgical and full respirator wear. Despite the methodological concerns, our review of the
available studies demonstrates consistency in the finding of no difference between surgical and N95
or equivalent masks as a physical intervention to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory
viruses, mainly influenza. The consistency of the finding across multiple studies of variable quality
adds epidemiologic strength of association.
The fact that *all included trials were conducted in relatively low transmission periods* limits
generalisability to an epidemic of the global size of COVID-19. We excluded in this part of the review
trials testing the combination of hygienic and barrier methods. These have shown to be effective in
observational studies carried out during the SARS 1 epidemic.


----------



## MrMatt

Eder said:


> Well we do know clinical studies show masks do nothing for prevention & transmission of the flu.
> 
> from Wired:
> 
> The few clinical trials we have of using masks for health care workers to prevent influenza don’t show a clear effect; nor can they even demonstrate that the more substantial N95 respirators work better than surgical masks.


Please post a study showing that.

The one you linked to has not been reviewed or published.
"This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should _not_ be used to guide clinical practice. "


----------



## Eder

No idea why I should post studies..most here in this thread believe wearing non medical masks are life or death and will complain about any study discounting their effectiveness...at any rate I wasted 5 minutes to get this for you










Flu mask: Should I wear one?


Influenza masks and hand hygiene might help protect health care workers from flu (influenza).




www.mayoclinic.org





_*The CDC doesn't recommend that people in public areas wear masks to protect themselves from influenza. 

Generally, taking precautions such as washing your hands regularly and avoiding people who are sick is considered the best mode of protection against influenza. *_

Or here









Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures


Pandemic Influenza—Personal Protective Measures




wwwnc.cdc.gov





*In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks *

The studies (unlike the lack of clinical studies for Covid situations) are numerous.


----------



## Retired Peasant

@Beaver101 and @like_to_retire 
whoosh
It would appear that neither of you got my point....carry on.


----------



## Beaver101

Retired Peasant said:


> I've never had a flu shot, and I haven't had flu since 1995. Anecdotal I know, but my sample of one works for me.
> 
> *The likelihood of getting flu seems rather low, given all the hand sanitizing, distancing, and mask wearing.*





Retired Peasant said:


> @Beaver101 and @like_to_retire
> whoosh
> It would appear that neither of you got my point....carry on.


 ... that's similar to those saying "well, wearing a mask gives a false sense of safety against Covid19", which could include the flu as well. Then we have hand-sanitizing and social distancing, one should be closed to being 100% protected. Is that a guarantee? No. So better to get the flu shot (safe) than not if you can tolerate it or have underlying health issues. 

For those who don't (for whatever reason) want to get the flu shot, all the power to their robustly healthy body.


----------



## kcowan

DW and I are having trouble getting flu shots this year. It seems to be random. Show up and they just ran out or their new supply is late. Make an appointment and they cancel. We are scheduled (again) to get them. Our GP bowed out early saying get them elsewhere.


----------



## calm

At Least 25 Dead Following Flu Vaccinations
At least 22 of the dead, including a 17-year-old boy, were part of a campaign to inoculate 19 million teenagers and senior citizens for free, the Korea Disease Control and Prevention Agency (KDCA) said.
.... aim to vaccinate about 30 million of a population of 52 million.
By Hyonhee Shin and Sangmi Cha
October 21, 2020








South Korea sticks to flu vaccine plan despite safety fears after 25 die


South Korean officials refused on Thursday to suspend a seasonal influenza inoculation effort, despite growing calls for a halt, including an appeal from a key group of doctors, after the deaths of at least 25 of those vaccinated.




www.reuters.com


----------



## bgc_fan

calm said:


> At Least 25 Dead Following Flu Vaccinations
> At least 22 of the dead, including a 17-year-old boy, were part of a campaign to inoculate 19 million teenagers and senior citizens for free, the Korea Disease Control and Prevention Agency (KDCA) said.
> .... aim to vaccinate about 30 million of a population of 52 million.
> By Hyonhee Shin and Sangmi Cha
> October 21, 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Korea sticks to flu vaccine plan despite safety fears after 25 die
> 
> 
> South Korean officials refused on Thursday to suspend a seasonal influenza inoculation effort, despite growing calls for a halt, including an appeal from a key group of doctors, after the deaths of at least 25 of those vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


And this is a good illustration on why not to rush the vaccine trials. It's not a political thing, it's a health and science issue. You don't want to rush and distribute vaccines just to meet someone's voter deadline, you want to make sure that the risk of possible harm is reduced as much as possible.


----------



## calm

I heard some media pundit explain that we will be wearing a mask at least for the next 2 years and perhaps 3 years.
Vaccine will probably be only 50% effective and require wearing masks for years.
Parents are going to need much patience teaching their kids mask etiquette.


----------



## Beaver101

calm said:


> I heard some media pundit explain that we will be wearing a mask at least for the next 2 years and perhaps 3 years.
> Vaccine will probably be only 50% effective and require wearing masks for years.
> Parents are going to need much patience teaching their kids mask etiquette.


 ... and imagine what the mortality rate for the anti-maskers (make that sh1t-disturbing fakers)... zero.


----------



## Beaver101

MPP Sam Oosterhoff’s gathering refused to follow COVID-19 rules, restaurant says

This guy ought to be fired. Very disappointed with Ford's decision of not to. Now the restaurant will have to suffer with the publicity of this incident, all because of an ignoramus MPP who ought to know better. So much for the show of "leadership" (both him and Ford).


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> MPP Sam Oosterhoff’s gathering refused to follow COVID-19 rules, restaurant says
> 
> This guy ought to be fired. Very disappointed with Ford's decision of not to. Now the restaurant will have to suffer with the publicity of this incident, all because of an ignoramus MPP who ought to know better. So much for the show of "leadership" (both him and Ford).


They don't seem to say when this idiot hosted this party. Any idea when it went down?

Also, how does it work if one wanted to fire a sitting MPP. I am all for it. Obviously this guy is an idiot, but would it create an immediate bi-election? Might just be better to fire him before the next election, even though the message behind it is required now.


----------



## Beaver101

^ The above party occurred the past weekend according to this link too: 

Restaurant where MPP posed for photo with big group while maskless says it asked party to follow rules

If Ford don't want to "fire" him, then he should "resign" on his own. But then he's shameless. And deleting the FB page don't help. I-D-I-O-T.


----------



## Beaver101

Here're some more COVIDIOTS: 

83 Students Fined $1,000 Each At Quebec Airbnb Party

Boy, are these RICH students .. partying is a priority, and what's a $1K fine. Thank God, they were in Quebec.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Beaver101 said:


> ^ The above party occurred the past weekend according to this link too:
> 
> Restaurant where MPP posed for photo with big group while maskless says it asked party to follow rules
> 
> If Ford don't want to "fire" him, then he should "resign" on his own. But then he's shameless. And deleting the FB page don't help. I-D-I-O-T.


But this idiot is quoting the rules and I am pretty sure these are not rules in place for last week.



> "This was an event at a staffed banquet hall, with under 50 people, including 5 tables distanced and limited to under ten people at each," he said. "However, I should have worn a mask when we took a quick pic, given the proximity of everyone, and I apologize for failing to do so."


I mean, its not outdoors. This MPP should be fired before this day is out, if Ford wants anyone else to follow rules. To not do so would be a huge mistake. My opinion of course.


----------



## MrMatt

OptsyEagle said:


> They don't seem to say when this idiot hosted this party. Any idea when it went down?
> 
> Also, how does it work if one wanted to fire a sitting MPP. I am all for it. Obviously this guy is an idiot, but would it create an immediate bi-election? Might just be better to fire him before the next election, even though the message behind it is required now.


You effectively can't fire a sitting MP or MPP.
If they're powerful enough (Trudeau) you can't even investigate some of their crimes.


----------



## OptsyEagle

MrMatt said:


> You effectively can't fire a sitting MP or MPP.
> If they're powerful enough (Trudeau) you can't even investigate some of their crimes.


I understand that you can't take away his seat, but you can certainly fire him from being the assistant to the education minister and I believe you can fire him from representing the Conservatives for that riding, rendering him an independant.

Who cares about his existing seat. I don't think the Cons. are currently hurting that bad for seats, and firing him will do more for their seat accumulation in the next election, then keeping the idiot, ever will.

This stuff really PO's me. I am as forgiving as anyone, but that guy is an MPP for the current government. He absolutely has to go. There is nothing Doug Ford can say at this afternoons press conference that I could care less about if that MPP is still in his government. That would be a big mistake at this time in the pandemic. No better message could be sent, to Ontarioans, as we head towards Christmas, in my opinion. He's a young guy. He can find a new career. Obviously he was not very suited for this one.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> You effectively can't fire a sitting MP or MPP.
> If they're powerful enough (Trudeau) you can't even investigate some of their crimes.


RCMP can do as they please. Remember when Goodale was being investigated relating to the income trust announcement?


----------



## james4beach

Because this situation is evolving, I want to point out that Bonnie Henry has revised her earlier guidance. Due to the increased rate of disease spread, BC health authorities now say people should wear masks in public spaces.



> Dr. Bonnie Henry: “It is now the expectation that people will wear a non-medical mask in public spaces,” she told reporters. “It is not an order, because this is something I know we support as part of our mutual responsibility to protect each other.”


I have started seeing signs at BC stores that say they expect everyone to wear masks. Some stores actually require them, but many of them use looser language. The medical guidance is clear: you should wear a mask when going into stores and public places.


----------



## Beaver101

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/worker-north-york-catholic-school-125938627.html



> ...The teacher is scheduled to appear before a justice of the peace on Feb. 2, 2021, and faces a maximum fine of up to $1,000, Sookraj said.
> 
> Details of the incident first appeared in the Toronto Star on Tuesday. The newspaper reported that the teacher tested positive for the novel coronavirus earlier this month. ...


I think a fine is not enough in this case for knowingly attending the school while being infected. She/he should go to jail.


----------



## MrMatt

Beaver101 said:


> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/worker-north-york-catholic-school-125938627.html
> 
> I think a fine is not enough in this case for knowingly attending the school while being infected. She/he should go to jail.


They should be terminated.
However the union will stand up for them.


----------



## Beaver101

^ This was an itinerant teacher so not sure she/he belongs to an union. And even so, optics on the "union" to support a criminally charged employee say alot about them/union. I think the union should start worrying about the students plus other colleagues on being infected.


----------



## agent99

Recent studies here and elesewhere in the world have shown that we can protect ourselves more efficiently from airborne virus by wearing a 3-layer mask that includes an inner unwoven polypropylene filter with tightly woven cotton on each side.

More here from GOC: COVID-19 non-medical masks and face coverings: Sew and no-sew instructions - Canada.ca

These polycarbonate filters wont hack it


----------



## Plugging Along

agent99 said:


> Recent studies here and elesewhere in the world have shown that we can protect ourselves more efficiently from airborne virus by wearing a 3-layer mask that includes an inner unwoven polypropylene filter with tightly woven cotton on each side.
> 
> More here from GOC: COVID-19 non-medical masks and face coverings: Sew and no-sew instructions - Canada.ca
> 
> These polycarbonate filters wont hack it


I posted on in this thread (the first 7 or 8 pages). With the increase in numbers, i Have started wearing a filter in my masks when I am out in stores for a little more protection. (Yes, I realize the masks are protect others, but there is some protection to the wearer. There are a lot more masks and materials available now. for filters, you can still get the P2.5 at many places, 

In terms of effectiveness of filtering
N95s are still in Shorter supply and should be left to medical community
KN95s are supposed to be the equivalent but not certified the same way. They are more abainle even at my costco.
For filters in the reusable which is what is being recommended. P2.5 > homemade helpa filter (from vacuums or furnace filter but please research> blue shop towels > coffee filter > paper towel. 

I am still waiting for my clear kick started mask with a N95 filter, but it has been delayed. As the cases increase, we are doing are best to balance maintaining a ‘normal’ life in the safest way possible. That includes social distancing, staying outdoors, limiting time extended time with anyone outside our family (which is hard with school and we choose some extra curricular activities), hygiene, and then masks.


----------



## agent99

I ordered a pack of masks with filter pockets as well as a supply of filters from Etsy. The masks were about $6.50 each on sale. Search Etsy for masks canada filter pocket and you get dozens of hits. Ours are from everbeautycrafts. 
Polypropylene filters are from Buyhomeland and about 90c each. Face Mask Filter Inserts-Polypropylene N95 Medical Grade | Etsy

Both local Ontario suppliers and shipping is free.

We still have our 2 layer cotton/polyester masks and may keep some of them in cars as backup.


----------



## james4beach

I'm still wearing the disposable surgical mask type (non medical), which come in boxes of 50s and are *triple* layer synthetic fabric. As I understand it, these are believed to be reasonably good. The ones I've seen at London Drugs are always either 3 layer or 4 layer.

I also wear 3 layer cloth (cotton) masks, especially some thick tightly woven ones.

And to clarify... absolutely, the masks do protect the person wearing them. I think it was a big mistake for health officials to tell us, for so long, that masks don't protect us. I think it would have been reasonable to speculate that masks protect the wearer. From the moment COVID appeared, my doctor friends told me that masks should protect us somewhat. More recently the CDC has finally said that yes, wearing a mask does protect you from catching it, to some degree.


----------



## james4beach

CBC: lab tests on effectiveness of various masks

An important point is that the masks have to fit your face well.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I'm still wearing the disposable surgical mask type (non medical), which come in boxes of 50s and are *triple* layer synthetic fabric. As I understand it, these are believed to be reasonably good. The ones I've seen at London Drugs are always either 3 layer or 4 layer.
> 
> I also wear 3 layer cloth (cotton) masks, especially some thick tightly woven ones.
> 
> And to clarify... absolutely, the masks do protect the person wearing them. *I think it was a big mistake for health officials to tell us, for so long, that masks don't protect us. *I think it would have been reasonable to speculate that masks protect the wearer. From the moment COVID appeared, my doctor friends told me that masks should protect us somewhat. More recently the CDC has finally said that yes, wearing a mask does protect you from catching it, to some degree.


 ... to be fair to 'these health officials', they weren't sure at that time if masks would be effective if worn incorrectly plus they were afraid of the public hoarding N95 masks. 

At this point in time, for whichever 'health official' to state wearing a mask or some sort of mouth covering does not help the 'wearer' at all, then they should have their professional licence taken away. 

And for the whiny 'anti-maskers', consider yourself lucky to be able to wear a cloth mask instead ... next time we might have to wear a gas-mask or maybe no mask at all (ie mankind annihilated)


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> And to clarify... absolutely, the masks do protect the person wearing them. I think it was a big mistake for health officials to tell us, for so long, that masks don't protect us. I think it would have been reasonable to speculate that masks protect the wearer. From the moment COVID appeared, my doctor friends told me that masks should protect us somewhat. More recently the CDC has finally said that yes, wearing a mask does protect you from catching it, to some degree.


What was amazing to me was how many people just blindly believed the government that masks provided no protection to the wearer. I know it was difficult to assume that the Canadian Health Leaders would mislead us (they did have important reasons why they did this) but to think that you only have 3 vulnerable areas that the virus can attack you and then to assume putting something between those openings and the virus, would not help, is pretty sad. I yelled this so many times on boards like this one; you don't need a PhD to prove to you that 2+2=4 but many still needed someone to prove this to them. How can something that covers up your only vulnerable spots not help. This was common sense. Why did so many Canadians have so little of it?

I imagine there was lot of wishful thinking going on here, as well, since I understand that people would rather not wear a mask, and to some, they felt it made them look like a coward. So childish. Would you not put a house between you and a bear that might wander into your backyard? Does that make you a coward? It makes you a person using your brain, dealing with the threat at hand. That is all it shows.

Anyway, if I did not see the behavior of people, during this pandemic, I would not have believed it. It has taught me a lot.


----------



## Plugging Along

OptsyEagle said:


> What was amazing to me was how many people just blindly believed the government that masks provided no protection to the wearer. I know it was difficult to assume that the Canadian Health Leaders would mislead us (they did have important reasons why they did this) but to think that you only have 3 vulnerable areas that the virus can attack you and then to assume putting something between those openings and the virus, would not help, is pretty sad. I yelled this so many times on boards like this one; you don't need a PhD to prove to you that 2+2=4 but many still needed someone to prove this to them. How can something that covers up your only vulnerable spots not help. This was common sense. Why did so many Canadians have so little of it?
> 
> I imagine there was lot of wishful thinking going on here, as well, since I understand that people would rather not wear a mask, and to some, they felt it made them look like a coward. So childish. Would you not put a house between you and a bear that might wander into your backyard? Does that make you a coward? It makes you a person using your brain, dealing with the threat at hand. That is all it shows.
> 
> Anyway, if I did not see the behavior of people, during this pandemic, I would not have believed it. It has taught me a lot.


There has been so little common sense. I was posted about masks and filters at the beginning of the thread, and said homemade ones offered protection for others and the wearer. I got into heated arguments with LTA, that there was no proof. I think he was the same person that argued about bears should never be in your area. Missing the point totally

People want clinical studies, but if you think of what that meant early on, it didn't make sense. It would require some people to willingly expose themselves with and without masks to see who caught the virus. As I was listening to our Chief of emergency services, he said you to could wait for these double blind clinical studies, but it will be too late by then, or use some common sense. Wearing a masks at that time was confirmed to protect others, and it made sense it would protect the wearer. Does it matter if it's 94% or 70%? That's more than 0. 

I find it frustrating at how poorly some peoples critical thinking skills are. Especially anti-maskers. I have heard the argument that there were very few cases in march and people weren't required to wear masks, but now people have to wear masks, and there are more cases everyday. I have even had someone try to tell us that masks are increasing the transmission of the virus. I try to explain, that if we didn't have masks that we would have more cases now. In the early days, there were just less cases because people were locked down and staying at home. 

As my kid has told others who have made fun of her for wearing masks (where it is recommended but voluntary), she is protecting them out of respect. They really dont deserve her consideration for being so selfish.


----------



## OptsyEagle

The other one I was surprised about is the dominance of peer pressure among the adult community. We know how powerful it is to our youth but I was completely surprised how many people will do the wrong thing, when it comes to Covid-19, only because someone more dominant thinks they should. Even when they know better, they will still go the gathering, or they will still take off their mask because the others are not wearing one. I can sympathize with the ignorant to some degree, but that behavior surprised me a lot.


----------



## Beaver101

OptsyEagle said:


> The other one I was surprised about is the dominance of peer pressure among the adult community. We know how powerful it is to our youth but I was completely surprised how many people will do the wrong thing, when it comes to Covid-19, only because someone more dominant thinks they should. Even when they know better, they will still go the gathering, or they will still take off their mask because the others are not wearing one. * I can sympathize with the ignorant to some degree, but that behavior surprised me a lot.*


 ... not at this point in time (about 11 months into a pandemic) - no sympathy and no surprise on people behaviour(s).


----------



## Eder

Well heres the 1st actual clinical study of masks ...theres another one completing Dec 2 from another source.
This one was testing only the safety from Covid on the mask wearer...it seems to contradict some recent claims.









Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 174, No 3


Background: Observational evidence suggests that mask wearing mitigates transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). It is uncertain if this observed association arises through protection of uninfected wearers (protective effect), via reduced transmission from...



www.acpjournals.org


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> Well heres the 1st actual clinical study of masks ...theres another one completing Dec 2 from another source.
> This one was testing only the safety from Covid on the mask wearer...it seems to contradict some recent claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 174, No 3
> 
> 
> Background: Observational evidence suggests that mask wearing mitigates transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). It is uncertain if this observed association arises through protection of uninfected wearers (protective effect), via reduced transmission from...
> 
> 
> 
> www.acpjournals.org


Interesting study; however, the main problem I would have is the lack of adherence to the mask wearing:

*Adherence*
Based on the lowest adherence reported in the mask group during follow-up, 46% of participants wore the mask as recommended, 47% predominantly as recommended, and 7% not as recommended.

Less than half actually wore the mask as instructed. It's not clear if that means the others weren't wearing masks all the time, or weren't wearing them properly.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Eder said:


> Well heres the 1st actual clinical study of masks ...theres another one completing Dec 2 from another source.
> This one was testing only the safety from Covid on the mask wearer...it seems to contradict some recent claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 174, No 3
> 
> 
> Background: Observational evidence suggests that mask wearing mitigates transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). It is uncertain if this observed association arises through protection of uninfected wearers (protective effect), via reduced transmission from...
> 
> 
> 
> www.acpjournals.org


First of all. A mask does not guarantee that the wearer will not be infected. I have never stated that a mask can do that and I don't think too many people who understand them, ever have either. A masks purpose for the mask wearer will be to reduce the dose of the infection that they get, which will help them dramatically in their fight to survive the infection. I always assumed that when it came to protecting the healthy person from infections with a mask, that there might be a small few protected, but not many. Lowering the dose is all they can do well...and that is all you really need from them.

2ndly, if you don't wear the mask, it does not work. We have no idea how any of these people were infected.

3rdly: Measuring antibodies does not really help for this experiment. I have always said that a low dose infection is similar to a vaccination. That is what mask wearing, on the healthy person, will do. Make low dose infections from what otherwise might have been a much larger deadly dose infections, and also provide some immunity through anti-body generation. I thank this study for confirming this for me.

4thly, the real benefit of masks is when everyone wears them, as opposed to most people wearing them and others still fighting it. When both the sick and the healthy are wearing masks, the prevention of infection will start to be seen.

Lastly, and this point turns their experiment into a muted point. Since we can never really know who is the infected person and who is the healthy person, WE ALL MUST WEAR A MASK when we cannot be sure of maintaining a social distance.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> Interesting study; however, the main problem I would have is the lack of adherence to the mask wearing:
> 
> *Adherence*
> Based on the lowest adherence reported in the mask group during follow-up, 46% of participants wore the mask as recommended, 47% predominantly as recommended, and 7% not as recommended.
> 
> Less than half actually wore the mask as instructed. It's not clear if that means the others weren't wearing masks all the time, or weren't wearing them properly.


If you've been involved in anything involving people.
Compliance and failure to do whatever it is properly are very common.

Almost every task you can imagine isn't done "properly".

That's the military logic behind exacting precise standards on stuff.. train people to do things right.


----------



## Synergy

james4beach said:


> I'm still wearing the disposable surgical mask type (non medical), which come in boxes of 50s and are *triple* layer synthetic fabric. As I understand it, these are believed to be reasonably good. The ones I've seen at London Drugs are always either 3 layer or 4 layer.
> 
> I also wear 3 layer cloth (cotton) masks, especially some thick tightly woven ones.
> 
> And to clarify... absolutely, the masks do protect the person wearing them. I think it was a big mistake for health officials to tell us, for so long, that masks don't protect us. I think it would have been reasonable to speculate that masks protect the wearer. From the moment COVID appeared, my doctor friends told me that masks should protect us somewhat. More recently the CDC has finally said that yes, wearing a mask does protect you from catching it, to some degree.


A recent Danish study showed limited protection to the wearer. One must also factor in a potential increase risk to the wearer - self contamination, false sense of security, etc. You don't have to go very far to see people handling their masks inappropriately, etc. People are touching their faces more than ever. It helps but is definitely not a substitute for social distancing, limiting unnecessary travel, etc...


----------



## Eder

The important takeaway from this study is that the participants wore high-grade surgical masks.

The cheap paper masks made in a Chinese sweatshop are obviously nowhere near as effective The cloth mask worn as a fashion accessory even less so .


----------



## bgc_fan

Eder said:


> The important takeaway from this study is that the participants wore high-grade surgical masks.
> 
> The cheap paper masks made in a Chinese sweatshop are obviously nowhere near as effective The cloth mask worn as a fashion accessory even less so .


From the article:
They received 50 three-layer, disposable, surgical face masks with ear loops (TYPE II EN 14683 [Abena]; filtration rate, 98%; *made in China*)

The lack of adherence is a problem. It's pointless not to segregate the results from those who actually used the masks as directed, vs those who didn't. In other words, they should have separated the results from the 46% who actually followed protocol vs those who didn't (but issued instructions) vs those who didn't wear masks to make it a useful study.


----------



## james4beach

Synergy said:


> A recent Danish study showed limited protection to the wearer. One must also factor in a potential increase risk to the wearer - self contamination, false sense of security, etc. You don't have to go very far to see people handling their masks inappropriately, etc. People are touching their faces more than ever. It helps but is definitely not a substitute for social distancing, limiting unnecessary travel, etc...


I visited two stores today and saw many people with their noses uncovered by their masks. One of these people was *wiping* their nose with their hand while the mask dangled below.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I have stated many times that masks are one of a few things that could use a training lesson. This could possibly be done with signs but TV might work good as well. There is also video streaming but I doubt a person who is willing to NOT cover their nose, would take the time to download anything. Obviously the anti-nosers know full well they are not doing it right.

My training snip its would look like this: (this is not rocket science)

NOTE: Mouth/Nose transmission directly to the Mouth/Nose of another, is the most dangerous and deadly form of infection that one will receive during this pandemic. If one exposes themselves to this type of virus transmission, for a prolonged amount of time, anyone, of any age, of any health status, can become very ill, experience long term disability and may die. Social distancing (SD) is the best way to prevent this, but whenever SD cannot be maintained a mask should be used by all.

1) A mask should be of a multi-ply fabric, if possible. Cotton works well. It should fit well over your nose and chin and the more one can prevent air from flowing through the sides, the better.

2) Never touch the front of the mask where your mouth and nose are. If a mask needs to be repositioned, it should be done from the edges and done as little as possible.

3) A mask should be able to allow for normal breathing.

4) A mask should be removed from your face as soon as social distancing can be resumed. When removing the mask, look down, shut your eyes, hold your breath, remove the mask slowly from one ear to the next, holding only the straps. Now disinfect your hands.

4) A mask should be changed as frequently as possible.

5) Used masks should not be reused for a minimum of 10 days or they should be washed with soap and water.

6) Most Important: A mask cannot prevent infection to the healthy wearer. It can only reduce the severity of the infection one might obtain to a less harmful, more manageable infection that your body may be able to deal with. Therefore, it is imperative that you use them when social distancing cannot be assured and that you reduce the time, within proximity of others, to as short as possible, EVEN WHEN WEARING A MASK.

Added: Keep in mind that if your mask stopped any viral transmission, not only will it be covered in active Covid-19, but also contaminated will be your clothes and especially your shoes. Outdoor clothes should not be worn throughout your living quarters and hands should be washed/disinfected each time you touch your outdoor shoes.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I am going to add one last comment in hopes of stemming some of the wrong information some people have been taking from our recent rise in infections. Many here seem to look at those rising numbers as evidence that precautions, like mask wearing, must not work.

The analogy of mask wearing, as it relates to the C-19 pandemic is very similar to a forest fire. Lets say you were going to light a little camp fire to cook the fish you caught this morning. Lets also pretend that the forest is very dry lately so you decide to keep a big bucket of water available to put out any spread of fire quickly, that might come from your camp fire. As you watch the fire burn you will observe that for any little spark ups of fire that want to move away from the fire pit, the bucket of water does a tremendous job of stopping that spread, right in its tracks.

Now lets pretend you went for a 1/2 hour nap and when you woke up the fire from your camp fire has now spread out across 2 or 3 acres of land, and is spreading away from you, very fast. If you now throw the bucket of water on this fire, it obviously helps since water puts out fire, but as you can imagine it will appear to be not working at all when the size of the fire is so large and because of that, is spreading quickly through the forest. It just can't overcome that.

Covid-19 works just like that. The much larger number of current infections combined with those infections being invited indoors due to the cold, is so large that most precautions, other then not allowing non-household members inside your house, will appear to be not working at all. Obviously they work just fine, but the combo of high infections, indoors, is just too much negative for you to see this positive.

Knowing this, obviously if we had to choose between wearing a mask or not having non-household members inside someone else's house, the second one is by far, the one behavior that would show the most benefit, very quickly. We just can't seem to get people to do that. We are not even doing all that great getting people to see the benefits of wearing a mask. I would suggest we do both if we want to see the maximum results.


----------



## Eder

Actually a clinical study doesn't support your opinion









Covid-19: New evidence on face masks


A study was just published on the ability of face masks to prevent getting covid-19. It's the highest quality study to date. Here are the results




sebastianrushworth.com





One interesting result of the study was that 52 people in the face mask group and 39 people in the control group reported another individual in the home having covid-19 during the course of the study. Yet of those, only 3 actually developed covid. People sharing a home with someone with covid were really no more likely to get covid than people who weren't. This suggests that most covid infections happen outside the home, and is in itself something that would be an interesting avenue for further research. It also suggests that most people with covid are not themselves very infectious, giving support to the hypothesis that most infections happen through a small group of highly infectious ”super spreaders”.


----------



## Beaver101

^


> ... It also suggests that most people with covid are not themselves very infectious, giving support to the hypothesis that most infections happen through a small group of highly infectious ”super spreaders”.


 ... most oxymoronic statement I have read in this thread.

As far as I'm concerned with this "pandemic", EVERYONE (you, me, him and her) is a spreader, with the asymptomatic ones being the worst. ...

Just like a highly educated ex-boss who never get sick since she has (supposedly) the cleanest (germ-free), neatest-looking, well-manicured pair of hands from NOT washing her hands after using the toilet.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Eder said:


> Actually a clinical study doesn't support your opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: New evidence on face masks
> 
> 
> A study was just published on the ability of face masks to prevent getting covid-19. It's the highest quality study to date. Here are the results
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sebastianrushworth.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One interesting result of the study was that 52 people in the face mask group and 39 people in the control group reported another individual in the home having covid-19 during the course of the study. Yet of those, only 3 actually developed covid. People sharing a home with someone with covid were really no more likely to get covid than people who weren't. This suggests that most covid infections happen outside the home, and is in itself something that would be an interesting avenue for further research. It also suggests that most people with covid are not themselves very infectious, giving support to the hypothesis that most infections happen through a small group of highly infectious ”super spreaders”.


Please Eder. Re posting the same article that we spent so much time debunking does not make it more true upon the 2nd post.

I don't know who these 3 people were who did not get covid but is the author and yourself really believing that no one gets covid-19 indoors? Do you really believe that?

So although the infections went down in the summer while we were mandated to wear masks, they somehow are driving up the numbers in the fall? Is that also what you believe? Does anyone believe that?

Common guys. This is common sense and lastly, this is very important which I will repeat again. NOT ALL INFECTIONS ARE THE SAME. Sorry for yelling, but this is getting a little tiresome. I have stated, so many times, that it is unlikely that an asymptomatic person is as infectious as symptomatic people. What that means is if the person in these households were asymptomatic and stayed that way, it is very likely, especially if the other household members are young and healthy, that they do not get infected. That also is common sense but so far, not common knowledge. Are we really going to confirm that all the infections happened outdoors because of the outcome of 3 people? Good luck with that.

Anyway, I will leave it this way. If a person you absolutely had to get near to was covid-19 positive would you wear a mask when you get closer then 6 feet to that person who also is not wearing a mask? This is obviously a set up question, but my point isn't your answer, most have already said that people should wear a mask if around covid-19 positive people, like healthcare workers. My point is that if you agree a mask should be worn when near covid-19 positive people, and you know that you cannot tell who those people are, then is it not safe to say that a mask should be worn when near all people? By the way, that is all I have been saying. Am I wrong here?

Anyway, thank you for allowing me to repeat my views over and over again. I only do it, when it appears I am right and more people seem to be in need of the information. This board has allowed me to post about the benefits of masks quite a few times. I am sure people know my pointsvand with that, good luck to all.


----------



## Eder

Of course you are entitled to your opinion...but disputing clinical trial evidence sounds like religion. At any rate an American study done on masks should be available on Dec 2.

It is not the same article btw...I doubt most bother to read this stuff anyway. As usual it is a waste of time.


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## cainvest

Eder said:


> Of course you are entitled to your opinion...but disputing clinical trial evidence sounds like religion.


Yup, exactly. 

Also note that link is someone's interpretation of a few studies, not their own work. That Dr. carefully uses "suggests" and "giving support" which is by no means a basis for an actual scientific conclusion.


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## Eder

He is commenting on the actual study which I have already posted.


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## cainvest

Eder said:


> He is commenting on the actual study which I have already posted.


Yes .. I saw that. His comments on the actual study are basically meaningless, just another opinion.


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## andrewf

To say that people are not likely to spread COVID to others they live with is hard to square with the evidence. There are many clusters of spread within households, more than could be attributed to chance. The only way I can think of to square that is if all members in a household were exposed to the same superspreader outside the home. Possible, certainly.


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## OptsyEagle

Eder said:


> Of course you are entitled to your opinion...but disputing clinical trial evidence sounds like religion. At any rate an American study done on masks should be available on Dec 2.
> 
> It is not the same article btw...I doubt most bother to read this stuff anyway. As usual it is a waste of time.


I don't dispute all studies. I just dispute the ones that are wrong. I am sure I do sound like a religion. I am trying to help people. I am definitely open to removing my mask if you can ever come back with something that makes any logical sense.

Also, you did not answer the question about whether you would wear a mask if you needed to get close to someone who currently has C-19. It is an important point to determine if you really believe this nonsense either. I doubt your gut is completely sold on their results, but of course I don't know you well. I do think you have something between your ears so I suspect you are at least in doubt.

Most studies that I have seen so far, and I appologize for not reading the last one you posted, get messed up on what a mask can do and what it can't do. Everyone seems to believe that their only goal is to stop infections. That is the start of their errors. Some don't talk at all about masking the infected person, but when that happens, reduced infections should happen. As for the healthy, a mask cannot stop infections. Unfortuneately, most people think that is their job and therefore must not work. Anyone that looks at this problem closely will undoubtedly determine that a mask, on the healthy person, can only and most likely does, reduce the size of their infection to a manageable dose. Even when this happens, in most mask studies, these people who are now alive, who probably would not have been if not for their mask, will appear as if the mask failed. You see what I mean. I am not trying to be difficult. I am just looking at the problem we have. I wish the people who did these studies did.

Lastly, most of the data will get mixed up because I suspect masked infections are not the primary method for infections overall, since no one wears a mask all the time. Most people probably spend more time without one on then they do with one. Because of this last point, it would require a much, much larger sample so as to get any reasonable level of confidence in the results. Add to that the fact that many of the participants control the outcome (by what they actually do with their masks), it becomes very hard for me to go against my common sense with these types of results.

Sometimes I wish I could be so easily persuaded.


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## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> I don't dispute all studies. I just dispute the ones that are wrong.


Do you mean you dispute the ones you don't agree with? 



OptsyEagle said:


> I am definitely open to removing my mask if you can ever come back with something that makes any logical sense.


Stay away from people ... 99% of the time, no mask required!

Just thought I'd mention that again as MB goes into near complete lockdown.


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## james4beach

andrewf said:


> To say that people are not likely to spread COVID to others they live with is hard to square with the evidence. There are many clusters of spread within households, more than could be attributed to chance. The only way I can think of to square that is if all members in a household were exposed to the same superspreader outside the home. Possible, certainly.


My friend in his 30s caught covid (he's overseas). He has roommates, and everyone in the house caught COVID.


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## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Yup, exactly.
> 
> Also note that link is someone's interpretation of a few studies, not their own work. That Dr. carefully uses "suggests" and "giving support" which is by no means a basis for an actual scientific conclusion.


There are also other studies that exist beyond what Eder is posting. There are also reports from the field, notably in the medical field (e.g. studies on NY health staff), which need to be taken into account.

There are many studies and opinions emerging from all of this, and the medical consensus currently says that masks DO help limit the spread.

Focusing too much on one particular study and one doctor's opinion / interpretation misses the point. Places like the WHO and CDC do look at broader data.


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## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Stay away from people ... 99% of the time, no mask required!
> 
> Just thought I'd mention that again as MB goes into near complete lockdown.


Avoiding people is in fact the most solid method to avoid catching COVID and limiting its spread.

Health officials remind us of the same thing. Avoid unnecessary travel, avoid unnecessary interaction with people.

I frequently go for walks outside and don't have a mask. No need, when there's nobody around.


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## OptsyEagle

As I have said, the biggest issue with probably 90% of the public and I would bet 75% of the scientific community is that they still believe that a masks only job is to prevent infection. So far all the studies have looked into the issue that way. I can't even agree with their findings on that, because of their methods, but what is really frustrating here, is that we should already know that a mask on a healthy person cannot prevent infection. All they can do is save a person's life. Can we not get a study on that. I still think saving a person's life is something and should be worth wearing a mask for. Especially when it might be your own life or the people you care about the most.

Can anyone see why I am getting a little tired of being told that I don't like studies that don't agree with me. I love being wrong. Every single time it happened, after being corrected, I was more right. Why people find being wrong or making a mistake embarrassing I have absolutely no idea. I am as right as I am because of how many times I have been wrong in the past. That is how humans grow. There are very few better ways to develop unless you want to do it very slowly.

So if I am wrong here please continue to point it out. When someone does, I will admit it and correct my theories accordingly. Eder's studies, although well intentioned I am sure, does not do that. What I don't understand is why people cannot see that. Except for J4C, I feel like I live a lonely existence here. Is it really only me, J4C, the entire medical community and anyone that has ever fought a pandemic in the last 2000 years, that thinks masks can be protective during a pandemic?

Lastly, when infection numbers are skyrocketing and most people live unmasked the majority of their waking hours, the benefits of masks will start to look like the benefits of one bucket of water being poured on a forest fire (see my analogy posted previously). I don't think anyone will dispute that water can put out fire, but I doubt you will see much benefit of a bucket of water poured on a forest fire. Does that mean we should abandon the use of water for fighting fires. Do we then also abandon masks because they cannot stop the pandemic on their own?


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## Synergy

Unfortunately people can't stay away from others. They use masks as an excuse to get closer and closer to others. Very few cases in my community but they are not far away and it's only a matter of time. Public behaviors are only getting worse. More education is not going to help, people are already well away of the rules. A full lock down in certain regions may unfortunately be the only way


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## Synergy

The masks that are being used by the general public have limited protection. Not to mention that the average person does not have enough common sense to use them correctly. I think everyone needs to get their heads out of the sand (to put it nicely) People need to stay away from each other. Arguing over the effectiveness of masks is futile. People need to distance themselves from others, period.


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## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Lastly, when infection numbers are skyrocketing and most people live unmasked the majority of their waking hours, the benefits of masks will start to look like the benefits of one bucket of water being poured on a forest fire (see my analogy posted previously). I don't think anyone will dispute that water can put out fire, but I doubt you will see much benefit of a bucket of water poured on a forest fire. Does that mean we should abandon the use of water for fighting fires. Do we then also abandon masks because they cannot stop the pandemic on their own?


I think the issue is you constantly promote masks as an always positive solution (they are not) and their use will make a large difference in the spread equal to all other measures, like distancing/isolation. Almost everyone agrees they will provide some level of additional control over the spread of covid but they are not near the top of the list.


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## Beaver101

Synergy said:


> The masks that are being used by the general public have limited protection. Not to mention that the average person does not have enough common sense to use them correctly. I think everyone needs to get their heads out of the sand (to put it nicely) People need to stay away from each other. Arguing over the effectiveness of masks is futile. *People need to distance themselves from others, period.*


 ... don't disagree with this. But you can't distance "properly" from others when in a grocery store, public transit, etc. for example. that's where the need for the addition of a mask. 

And then there's work - wonder how long employers (for those who can) are going to continue/allow employees (sans government workers) to WAH ("productively") while continuing to pay a pretty premium on rent, another 9 months? LOL.


----------



## cainvest

Beaver101 said:


> ... don't disagree with this. But you can't distance "properly" from others when in a grocery store, public transit, etc. for example. that's where the need for the addition of a mask.


Seriously ... you can't distance in a grocery store?
Sure, I'll admit that in my past 3 visits only 1 of the 3 was 100% distanced and the other two visits were 99.9% distanced (time wise) because an employee walked by me within 2m.


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## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> I think the issue is you constantly promote masks as an always positive solution (they are not) and their use will make a large difference in the spread equal to all other measures, like distancing/isolation. Almost everyone agrees they will provide some level of additional control over the spread of covid but they are not near the top of the list.


I think you are mistaking my enthusiasm for any type of benefit as also saying that they have an ability to end the pandemic. I of course, never said that, nor do I believe it.

The overall problem is not the mask. It is the improper use of the mask, combined with the fact that people do not wear them all the time. Most people live unmasked for more time then they are masked.

Can't you see that in those studies, even if the mask did prevent infection 100% of the time (which it won't), it would not show up nearly as positive when they are only worn a smaller percentage of the time by the participants and usually handled improperly. Can't people see what I am saying here. If I recall the study did show a small benefit in reducing infections, which with the way people wear them is quite remarkable. However, when one considers *they were primarily looking at reducing infections of healthy people *and when people understand that a mask doesn't do that, the study is not relevant to why a person should wear a mask to protect themselves.

Again, a mask does not prevent infection. *It can and does reduce the size of the infection a person obtains to a more manageable and possibly life saving lower dose.*

Show me a study against that point and we may have something useful to talk about. Again, I would like nothing more then to toss my masks in the garbage. I am just not a fan of dying.


----------



## Beaver101

cainvest said:


> Seriously ... you can't distance in a grocery store?
> Sure, I'll admit that in my past 3 visits only 1 of the 3 was 100% distanced and the other two visits were 99.9% distanced (time wise) because an employee walked by me within 2m.


 ... I can but others can't or more like "don't". And when they do, they ain't doing it "properly" either. Instead of lining up 2 meters away (which you would think they got it by now, duh) or stand on the X spot marked for them at the checkout, they're right behind you breathing down your neck. And no amount of staring (behind a mask) gets them to back off either so I use a personal shopping cart (measures about 4 feet) to distance them behind me, short of telling them to "x#@! stand back". This is just the checkout. Going through the aisles is another story.

Anyhow, found another method to get around this, go shop right before the store opens or after the senior's priority hour, like 8 am- ie. no or less crowding. It's like enjoying the sunrise in bliss.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Again, a mask does not prevent infection. *It can and does reduce the size of the infection a person obtains to a more manageable and possibly life saving lower dose.*
> 
> Show me a study against that point and we may have something useful to talk about. Again, I would like nothing more then to toss my masks in the garbage. I am just not a fan of dying.


We just keep going around in circles here.

You can continue to focus on small percentage gains (like reducing the size of the infection) while I'll continue to focus on reducing my chances of even getting the infection.

In regards to reducing the size of the infection, a few studies are showing (not conclusive) that some mouthwashes kill the virus. So everytime you go out now are you going to use mouthwash to help reduce the size of the potential infection? A lower dose could save your life right?


----------



## cainvest

Beaver101 said:


> Anyhow, found another method to get around this, go shop right before the store opens or after the senior's priority hour, like 8 am- ie. no or less crowding.


Now that is the correct thinking right there!


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> We just keep going around in circles here.
> 
> You can continue to focus on small percentage gains (like reducing the size of the infection) while I'll continue to focus on reducing my chances of even getting the infection.
> 
> In regards to reducing the size of the infection, a few studies are showing (not conclusive) that some mouthwashes kill the virus. So everytime you go out now are you going to use mouthwash to help reduce the size of the potential infection? A lower dose could save your life right?


Why do you believe that anything I have said indicates that I am against social distancing. Of course that comes first. It's 100% effective.

So if it makes you feel better I will make the announcement now. Anyone who can guarantee that they will never come within 6 feet of someone outside their household can stop wearing a mask. There will be absolutely no problems in you doing so.

Does that make you feel better? Why do you want to distract things. This thread is about whether a mask has benefits for the average person or not. Your point has no bearing on that unless you missed this post of mine on how to use a mask. Specifically point #6:

*HOW TO USE A MASK:

NOTE: Mouth/Nose transmission directly to the Mouth/Nose of another, is the most dangerous and deadly form of infection that one will receive during this pandemic. If one exposes themselves to this type of virus transmission, for a prolonged amount of time, anyone, of any age, of any health status, can become very ill, experience long term disability and may die. Social distancing (SD) is the best way to prevent this, but whenever SD cannot be maintained a mask should be used by all.

1) A mask should be of a multi-ply fabric, if possible. Cotton works well. It should fit well over your nose and chin and the more one can prevent air from flowing through the sides, the better.

2) Never touch the front of the mask where your mouth and nose are. If a mask needs to be repositioned, it should be done from the edges and done as little as possible.

3) A mask should be able to allow for normal breathing.

4) A mask should be removed from your face as soon as social distancing can be resumed. When removing the mask, look down, shut your eyes, hold your breath, remove the mask slowly from one ear to the next, holding only the straps. Now disinfect your hands.

4) A mask should be changed as frequently as possible.

5) Used masks should not be reused for a minimum of 10 days or they should be washed with soap and water.

6) Most Important: A mask cannot prevent infection to the healthy wearer. It can only reduce the severity of the infection one might obtain to a less harmful, more manageable infection that your body may be able to deal with. Therefore, it is imperative that you use them when social distancing cannot be assured and that you reduce the time, within proximity of others, to as short as possible, EVEN WHEN WEARING A MASK. *


----------



## OptsyEagle

This debate can be ended very quickly with the answer to one question:

*If you had to come within 6 feet of a person who you knew had Covid-19, and was not wearing a mask, would you put a mask on as you approach them?*

I am not asking if staying away from them is better. I am not trying to load the answer to what I want, either, but I would like everyone reading this to answer it. Because anyone that I have heard state that masks do not provide benefit have ALL qualified that suggestion saying that the exception for masks are healthcare workers.

Now think about that closely. *Why would a mask protect a healthcare worker, when they are around infected people and not protect you? * The only way that can happen is if you are either not wearing one OR you are not using a mask properly.

So this debate cannot be about the protections a mask can provide, since everyone must believe in their gut that they do provide meaningful benefit. It must only be about what is the best way to use them compared to the wrong ways, and that study, if it proved anything, was that we are not using them properly. Well I already knew that and is why I posted how to use them above. I am sure there are improvements, but what I posted should get you the most bang for your mask wearing buck.


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## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Why do you believe that anything I have said indicates that I am against social distancing. Of course that comes first. It's 100% effective.
> 
> So if it makes you feel better I will make the announcement now. Anyone who can guarantee that they will never come within 6 feet of someone outside their household can stop wearing a mask. There will be absolutely no problems in you doing so.
> 
> Does that make you feel better? Why do you want to distract things. This thread is about whether a mask has benefits for the average person or not. Your point has no bearing on that unless you missed this post of mine on how to use a mask. Specifically point #6:


Honestly and if I remember correctly (please excuse me if I've got the wrong person) you previously mentioned that talking to a contractor under 2m while wearing a mask on was ok when an easy solution to keep your distance is available. I think you said the solutions to keep your distance in that situation was too much trouble. This tells me you are placing a masks effectiveness at or above social distancing. 

In any case, continue with your message, masks are good!


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## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Honestly and if I remember correctly (please excuse me if I've got the wrong person) you previously mentioned that talking to a contractor under 2m while wearing a mask on was ok when an easy solution to keep your distance is available. I think you said the solutions to keep your distance in that situation was too much trouble. This tells me you are placing a masks effectiveness at or above social distancing.
> 
> In any case, continue with your message, masks are good!


You took that as my suggestion that I think masks are better then social distancing. I will take a small part of the blame for that but of course it was not my intention. You say there is an easy solution but let me change the question a little:

Let's say the contractor came to fix a known big leak in the roof of your house. He was going to start the fix right away. It's going to rain tonight. The quote was a couple thousand higher then you expected. He is completely computer illiterate. There are no other contractors available in your area. Some of the terminology on the quote is technical and needs to be explained and he does not look very sick.

What are you going to do now. Ask him to mail it. Enjoy the rain tonight then.

That is what I meant by the question. When you cannot maintain a 6 foot distance, would you wear a mask. I am not asking for a debate on when that distance can or cannot be maintained. Each person will make that determination and I really don't want to debate all of those situations. All I am saying is that when it is determined that 6 feet cannot be maintained, you should wear a mask. Are we clear on that now?

Is that really what has prolonged this debate for this long. For that I appologize to you and i think many, many others.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> You took that as my suggestion that I think masks are better then social distancing. I will take a small part of the blame for that but of course it was not my intention. You say there is an easy solution but let me change the question a little:
> 
> Let's say the contractor came to fix a known big leak in the roof of your house. He was going to start the fix right away. It's going to rain tonight. The quote was a couple thousand higher then you expected. He is completely computer illiterate. There are no other contractors available in your area. Some of the terminology on the quote is technical and needs to be explained and he does not look very sick.
> 
> What are you going to do now. Ask him to mail it. Enjoy the rain tonight then.
> 
> That is what I meant by the question. When you cannot maintain a 6 foot distance, would you wear a mask. I am not asking for a debate on when that distance can or cannot be maintained. Each person will make that determination and I really don't want to debate all of those situations. All I am saying is that when it is determined that 6 feet cannot be maintained, you should wear a mask. Are we clear on that now?
> 
> Is that really what has prolonged this debate for this long. For that I appologize to you and i think many, many others.


No point getting into those one off "what if" senarios ... just try to figure out a way to maintain distance, like Beaver101 did a few posts back in this thread for shopping. 

In any case, masks are manditory where needed, so use them if required. Sound good?


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## james4beach

Steinbach MB was the site of a large anti-mask rally recently. Sadly, people from all around the area came to participate in the rally. Steinbach now has a test positivity rate of 40%. A man in his 20s has also died.

40% positivity rate is bad, by the way.


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## Eder

If only they had worn masks Manitoba would not have the outbreak it is currently dealing with right? Silly.


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## james4beach

Eder said:


> If only they had worn masks Manitoba would not have the outbreak it is currently dealing with right? Silly.


I wasn't there so I can't share any first hand observations. In general, it seems Manitoba didn't take this very seriously.

Friends of mine said that in the last few weeks, stores were extremely crowded (e.g. Costco packed full) with inadequate space. One of my friends, in his 30s, was going to secret parties operated by bars / nightclub. This was a few weeks ago. He said there were all kinds of exciting events like this happening.


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## cainvest

Eder said:


> If only they had worn masks Manitoba would not have the outbreak it is currently dealing with right? Silly.


Masks have been manditory for over three weeks now in MB and even before that there was high usage (my guess ~70%) in stores as the numbers went up.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Masks have been manditory for over three weeks now in MB and even before that there was high usage (my guess ~70%) in stores as the numbers went up.


And we should remember that masks don't help if infections are happening in private / group gatherings ... e.g. drinks with friends, church services, family gatherings. Someone at CMF posted about having a 10 person Thanksgiving.

The fact COVID has been spreading like wildfire in Manitoba doesn't mean masks have been useless. Masks are just one "layer" of defense among many others. If people were doing large private gatherings, parties, and church services (and we know they were) the masks are irrelevant, because people don't wear masks in those environments.


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## OptsyEagle

As we know, a person can be infected at numerous times throughout the day. There are many different ways a person can achieve this. I am pretty sure I just filled a page of posts reminding people that a person with a mask on can still be infected. *Mask wearing or not wearing is obviously NOT the primary issue surrounding the world's current state of rising infections.* It has been mandated in various jurisdictions around the world and in Canada for a long time now. During these mandates the infection numbers have dropped and risen. So as I said, please stop using infection numbers for your evidence of their benefits. Infection numbers obviously are not going to give you the evidence you are looking for.

The only major change that I can see, with respect to the current state of rising infections is the cooler weather in the northern hemisphere. Most assume it has produced the need to drive social gatherings indoors and that is where the increase in infections are happening. I agree with this, but I am keeping my eyes open as well.

As I have said, a precaution like mask wearing, where people wear a mask perhaps 2% to 50% of their waking day, and almost never during social gatherings, tells me that you cannot expect mask wearing to solve this problem. So I will repeat it one more time. Mask wearing is designed to save your life and/or make your infection easier to deal with. For the healthy person that is all it can do. It should help slow the infection numbers when the masks are on the infected person but as I just said, we just don't and can't wear them enough...and if we did there would then be other problems to deal with.

I suggest we focus on social gatherings until it is proven that those are not the problem. To me, that is the elephant in the room and I am getting tired throwing a bucket of water (mandating masks) on a forest fire, when it comes to actually dealing with the infection numbers. I am sure our government leaders were hoping the mandate of masks was going to turn the curve as well. That was foolish. Now it is time to do what needs to be done.

_*WE NEED THE GRINCH !* _ Can we flash a light signal in the sky or something? Someone has to steal Christmas and soon. lol


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## kcowan

Yesterday I had the full exposure to Translink. Bus to Lonsdale Quay, Ferry to downtown, Skytrain to east downtown, Bus back to West Van. The only real exposure was in transit between the various links. Impossible to maintain 6' spacing when entering the Seabus/bus. I did not feel particularly threatened because there ws lots of air flow.

While this was a legal journey, I was more under threat than dining with 6 friends at their home. The draconion rules are because of a few idiots. It is much like Trudeau's gun laws.


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## OptsyEagle

kcowan said:


> Yesterday I had the full exposure to Translink. Bus to Lonsdale Quay, Ferry to downtown, Skytrain to east downtown, Bus back to West Van. The only real exposure was in transit between the various links. Impossible to maintain 6' spacing when entering the Seabus/bus. I did not feel particularly threatened because there ws lots of air flow.
> 
> While this was a legal journey, I was more under threat than dining with 6 friends at their home. The draconion rules are because of a few idiots. It is much like Trudeau's gun laws.


Really. Are we assuming any of the 6 people, at your house, have a pretty good infection going, at the time?

No. Social gathering, indoors, without mask wearing or social distancing is a little worse. Perhaps not by much, from what you describe, but definitely not much better either. IMO.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> Really. Are we assuming any of the 6 people, at your house, have a pretty good infection going, at the time?


That's an interesting question. If any of the 6 had the virus and everyone was socializing indoors, how would that compare to being in a busy transportation station outdoors. I suppose you'd have to use statistics to determine how many of the station crowd would have the virus compared to 6 people. I would guess the odds of one of the six being infected was pretty low. I assume that's why they set limits on numbers of people in a group of visitors.

ltr


----------



## OptsyEagle

It is a good question. In my opinion, if those 6 people are around a dinner table or in the average living room and are there for a few hours, without masking, of course, it is a very, very dangerous place to be if one of them has an infection.

As for the public transportation. I certainly would not use it unless I had to, but if everyone is mandated to wear masks, and lots of hand disinfecting happens as you leave, no touching of the face, you do your best to keep away from people when you can, then that seems a little safer to me.


----------



## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> It is a good question. In my opinion, if those 6 people are around a dinner table or in the average living room and are there for a few hours, without masking, of course, it is a very, very dangerous place to be if one of them has an infection.
> 
> As for the public transportation. I certainly would not use it unless I had to, but if everyone is mandated to wear masks, and lots of hand disinfecting happens as you leave, no touching of the face, you do your best to keep away from people when you can, then that seems a little safer to me.


Agree, that's my guess. You're done if any of those 6 is carrying the virus.

ltr


----------



## cainvest

like_to_retire said:


> That's an interesting question. If any of the 6 had the virus and everyone was socializing indoors, how would that compare to being in a busy transportation station outdoors.


According to our chief provincial public health officer, long term indoor exposure is nearly the absolute worse case senario ... very high infection transfer rates. Of course that assumes at least one person is infected.


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## OptsyEagle

like_to_retire said:


> Agree, that's my guess. You're done if any of those 6 is carrying the virus.
> 
> ltr


Done is the right word.

In my opinion, the transit situation is a good place to get a mild or almost benign infection. The dinner party is a perfect place to send you directly to the ICU. The difference in dosage of infections that can occur is that great, in my opinion.

I have said it before but it does need repeating often. Christmas will be deadly this year.


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## like_to_retire

OptsyEagle said:


> Done is the right word.
> 
> In my opinion, the transit situation is a good place to get a mild or almost benign infection. The dinner party is a perfect place to send you directly to the ICU. The difference in dosage of infections that can occur is that great, in my opinion.
> 
> I have said it before but it does need repeating often. Christmas will be deadly this year.


I totally agree. Everyone sitting around for hours indoors "_speaking moistly_" to each other is literally the recipe for getting this virus if anyone at the gathering has contracted it. A silent killer.

Alternatively, walking by someone at a transit station, where both are wearing masks, while the wind is blowing, isn't even on the same level.

ltr


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> According to our chief provincial public health officer, long term indoor exposure is nearly the absolute worse case senario ... very high infection transfer rates. Of course that assumes at least one person is infected.


I agree this looks risky. I recommend running an indoor HEPA filter if you have one. I have a portable HEPA unit and have it running when my bubble-friend comes over. So I've cut down my social contacts to 1, and am still cautious even with that one.

COVID-19 is now known to be airborne. Unfortunately it's not enough to just leave 2 meters between people. What seems to happen is that the virus ends up in a misted aerosol, which hangs in the air. So if it's the middle of winter and everyone is inside a house, and there isn't any ventilation, aerosol (potentially with the virus) builds up in the indoor air.

One solution is ventilation with open windows, but that's very tough in Canada. We just have to reduce the mix of non-bubble people hanging out in the same space... it's really the only thing that can be done.

*I am not* gathering with my family/parents at Christmas. This would be an insane thing to do under the circumstances. Sure I like Christmas and New Year, but I like seeing my parents alive much, much more.


----------



## kcowan

like_to_retire said:


> Agree, that's my guess. You're done if any of those 6 is carrying the virus.
> 
> ltr


They fixed it now. No more than the two of us at home now. So my birthday party has been cancelled. Probably just as well to skip the year 2020


----------



## like_to_retire

kcowan said:


> So my birthday party has been cancelled.


🎂 Happy Birthday 🎂


----------



## sags

The airports in the US are packed. The airlines are adding more flights. The reason people are flying........_i want to visit my family._

Okay then........off you go.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Oh lord.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> The airports in the US are packed. The airlines are adding more flights. The reason people are flying........_i want to visit my family._
> 
> Okay then........off you go.


Yes, the US Thanksgiving is going to create an explosion in cases. At this point we just have to pray that it doesn't somehow spill across the border.


----------



## Eder

Masks or no masks Canada is not too far behind the USA in infections. Since we are back in line with the peanut gallery for the vaccine we may surpass the USA on per capita positivity eventually. With our health leader Patty Hajdu setting the example

Trudeau health minister flew friendly skies more than thought during COVID lockdown 

setting new records should be a foregone conclusion.


----------



## Money172375

Eder said:


> Masks or no masks Canada is not too far behind the USA in infections. Since we are back in line with the peanut gallery for the vaccine we may surpass the USA on per capita positivity eventually. With our health leader Patty Hajdu setting the example
> 
> Trudeau health minister flew friendly skies more than thought during COVID lockdown
> 
> setting new records should be a foregone conclusion.


I think we’re doing a LOT better than the US. They have 4 times the number of cases per capita and double (almost triple) the deaths per capita. As bad as it’s made to sound in Ontario, it doesn’t compare at all to the US.


----------



## Mukhang pera




----------



## james4beach

We are doing better than the US. I've been watching the deaths per capita figure since the the start of the pandemic. I watch the ratio of Canada to US.

Early in the pandemic we were around 55% of the US death rate per capita. That reduced to 50% and was quite stable for a while. In recent months we've been dropping. Currently, Canada has 302 deaths per 1M and US has 792 deaths per 1M .... so this ratio is now down to 38%

There is nothing good about how the US is handling COVID. A total disaster and just wait for the fallout from their Thanksgiving. Those numbers will emerge by around December 10.


----------



## MrMatt

Money172375 said:


> I think we’re doing a LOT better than the US. They have 4 times the number of cases per capita and double (almost triple) the deaths per capita. As bad as it’s made to sound in Ontario, it doesn’t compare at all to the US.


Canada is way ahead of much of the world.
Specifically the US, it's not even close, there are only a handful of states that are doing better than the worst of the Canadian Provinces.









COVID-19 in the U.S.: How do Canada's provinces rank against American states?


Looking at confirmed coronavirus cases per million people, how do the U.S. states compare to Canada's provinces and territories?




www.ctvnews.ca





For the Ontario bashers out there, look at the data.
Yeah things could be better, but to be fair Toronto is very built up, the built environment and lifestyle is designed for lots of interaction, which gives lots of diesease spread.

That is part of the reason NYC was hit so hard.
Bad environment, new situation with little knowledge and it was bound to be bad.

Throw in the disastrous political situation and it was bound to be a mess.
Toronto-Ontario-Federal managed to avoid that.
Despite Tory and Ford with their political "history", it was nothing like the politics in New York


----------



## OptsyEagle

Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With ...


This report describes COVID-19 incidence in Kansas counties with and without mask mandates.




www.cdc.gov














A fairly quick study from Kansas, where masks were mandated in 24 counties and were not mandated in 81 counties. They measured the differences in infections per 100,000 people. Keep in mind that just before the mask mandate the counties that were mandated were worse. Their trajectory was considerably uglier. 

That said, it is a short study and as I have said, nothing in it talks about the benefits of reducing the severity of an infection obtained by a healthy person who was infected. Another point that probably helped the masked group is just the implementation of a restrictive mandate possibly has a waking up effect for other precautions, that might soon start to dissipate. I don't think I have seen any other situations where masks use illustrated such a positive result. It was a summer study. I think they measured infections from July 3 to August 17. I doubt a mask is going to completely reverse what is going on today but I am absolutely positive, they help considerably.


----------



## bgc_fan

OptsyEagle said:


> Another point that probably helped the masked group is just the implementation of a restrictive mandate possibly has a waking up effect for other precautions, that might soon start to dissipate.


It's interesting, and on the surface would be a slamdunk on the effectiveness. It would be interesting to see a follow-up as it was mentioned that schools were being reopened in mid-August which could possibly lead to another spike in cases. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6947e2-H.pdf

Actually, the cases are going up, but it would be interesting to see if there is any difference at this point: COVID-19 Cases in Kansas | KDHE COVID-19


----------



## OptsyEagle

As I have said before, it is unlikely the use of masks, which only protect people for the 2% to 50% of their waking day that they might have one on, is unlikely to overcome the negative effect of non-mask wearing people gathering indoors.

This Kansas study seems to show a little bit more benefit then even I think mask wearing would do with respect to only looking at infection reduction benefits. I think in Eder's study the mask wearing showed a very small benefit that we were supposed to assume was just a negligible benefit. 

I would just say that masks will provide a small benefit, with respect to infections, and a much larger benefit with respect to the severity of any infection received, while a mask was on. This is mainly because more time is spent without a mask on then with a mask on and just about everyone that wears a mask, does it improperly. Things could be improved but very little is going to overcome the *most dangerous activity; gathering indoors without a mask on. *That needs to stop if we want to get control of this thing.


----------



## andrewf

MrMatt said:


> That is part of the reason NYC was hit so hard.
> Bad environment, new situation with little knowledge and it was bound to be bad.


A lot of international travel, too. NYC's infection was seeded mainly from Europe. It's a similar story with Toronto.



MrMatt said:


> Throw in the disastrous political situation and it was bound to be a mess.
> Toronto-Ontario-Federal managed to avoid that.
> Despite Tory and Ford with their political "history", it was nothing like the politics in New York


Canada has a fairly normal, non-dysfunctional political environment. Any reasonably competent leader could have done the obvious things to help manage the pandemic, and other levels of government were eager to work together and opposition parties and the public were very supportive and accommodating. In the US, Trump failed the test of leadership, despite the bar being so very, very low.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> A fairly quick study from Kansas, where masks were mandated in 24 counties and were not mandated in 81 counties.


Interesting to see data like this come out. Of course it is very difficult to determine effectiveness of only one measure when so many variables are at play. People's behaviour due to the mandated masks could play a big role as well as additional controls that were put in play like ..

_Thirteen (54%) mandated counties and seven (9%) nonmandated counties had implemented at least one other public health mitigation strategy not related to the use of masks (e.g., limits on size of gatherings and occupancy for restaurants). _


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Interesting to see data like this come out. Of course it is very difficult to determine effectiveness of only one measure when so many variables are at play. People's behaviour due to the mandated masks could play a big role as well as additional controls that were put in play like ..
> 
> _Thirteen (54%) mandated counties and seven (9%) nonmandated counties had implemented at least one other public health mitigation strategy not related to the use of masks (e.g., limits on size of gatherings and occupancy for restaurants). _


Absolutely. I don't think we are going to see a study on mask use, that we all can agree gives us a non-arguable conclusion. For this reason, I have been asking people to simply use their common sense. There is nothing more we can do. Absolutely proving the benefits of masks is a very difficult nut to crack.

Most of us, I believe have done that, and it has shown the correct course of action. I believe it is the people who have gone out on a limb against mask use, in the past, or just do not want to wear one, that seem to keep looking for something that tells them they don't need to wear one. It is unlikely they will find it but let me know if you find something that looks close to it.


----------



## bgc_fan

cainvest said:


> Thirteen (54%) mandated counties and seven (9%) nonmandated counties had implemented at least one other public health mitigation strategy not related to the use of masks (e.g., limits on size of gatherings and occupancy for restaurants).


I noted this too; however, there was a follow-up sentence:

_However, in sensitivity analyses, similar decreases in COVID-19 incidence after July 3 were observed among mandated counties with and without other mitigation strategies. Therefore, although implementing multiple mitigation strategies is the recommended approach, strategies related to mask use mandates appear to be important._

So restrictions obviously helped, but mask usage seemed to have more of an effect.


----------



## cainvest

bgc_fan said:


> I noted this too; however, there was a follow-up sentence:
> 
> _However, in sensitivity analyses, similar decreases in COVID-19 incidence after July 3 were observed among mandated counties with and without other mitigation strategies. Therefore, although implementing multiple mitigation strategies is the recommended approach, strategies related to mask use mandates appear to be important._
> 
> So restrictions obviously helped, but mask usage seemed to have more of an effect.


Not sure I'd read it as "more of an effect" over other measures but none the less, an important one.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Obviously the only mandate any County actually needs is to keep people away from people (social distancing). If we could do that for 6 weeks, nothing else would be required and C-19 would be gone. Since we can't do that we go here:

1) Keep away from most people (bubble numbers, etc.)
2) Keep away from most people (work from home)
3) Keep away from most people (close down restaurants and bars)
4) Keep your nose and mouth away from people (masks)
5) Keep your hands from contaminating your mouth and nose (hand hygiene and don't touch your face)

As we know, compared to "keep all people away from all people" the above precautions in brackets have a very small benefit compared to that, but as we know, combined they get us fairly close. The main reason, in my opinion, that we are not seeing better results is most people break the first rule too often and worse, they are now indoors while they are breaking it. That pretty much wipes out all of the benefits of the other 4 and then some, in my opinion. Doesn't mean we should stop doing them, it actually means we need to effectively deal with the breaking of precaution #1.


----------



## OptsyEagle

Some conclusions of more studies/observations pertaining to the use of masks, for those that require more evidence.









Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




www.cdc.gov





I found this one interesting:


An investigation of a high-exposure event, in which 2 symptomatically ill hair stylists interacted for an average of 15 minutes with each of 139 clients during an 8-day period, found that none of the 67 clients who subsequently consented to an interview and testing developed infection. The stylists and all clients universally wore masks in the salon as required by local ordinance and company policy at the time.32


----------



## Mukhang pera

Good to see use of masks gaining ground.


----------



## james4beach

I've noticed stores around me starting to get more busy, more crowded in recent days (perhaps Christmas excitement)

I am now starting using my stash of the KN95 masks, especially when visiting crowded stores. Compared to cloth masks they have strong protection for the person wearing them. Pretty much medical grade, and they can easily be bought at Shoppers Drug Mart, by the way.

We're getting into peak sickness season and people are now also travelling for Christmas, so I think this is becoming riskier. Additionally I suspect that people's behaviour will change with the good news about vaccines. I think they will become more relaxed and less careful, since the public has a very poor understanding of health & disease.

The combination of December travel + vaccine optimism + family gatherings could cause the disease spread to really spike, and I'm preparing for that.

Sadly I think that a lot of people are going to die around Christmas and especially the few weeks following it.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I am now starting using my stash of the KN95 masks, especially when visiting crowded stores.


Just have to ask ... why are you visiting crowded stores?
BTW, saw someone in a Walmart curb-side pickup slot with a toboggan the other day.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Just have to ask ... why are you visiting crowded stores?
> BTW, saw someone in a Walmart curb-side pickup slot with a toboggan the other day.


Not much choice, seems everywhere I go is crowded. I am starting to make notes of quieter times of the day ... that's the best workaround.

I have been adjusting my behaviour in response to the crowds. I'm going out less.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Not much choice, seems everywhere I go is crowded. I am starting to make notes of quieter times of the day ... that's the best workaround.
> 
> I have been adjusting my behaviour in response to the crowds. I'm going out less.


Thankfully our "non-essential" rules have dropped off most supermarket shopping, stores a very quiet late at night. Even with that we're mainly doing curb-side at Walmart, fast, easy, minimal wait ... last time was only 10 minutes.

One odd thing about curb-side is their inventory system, not sure how it works. We ordered a frozen turkey but they didn't have any, actually no Walmarts in our area showed stock. So I did a late night shop into Walmart and guess what ... they had 6 of the turkeys we tried to order in the freezer. We checked again that night online after I got it and ... no stock. 

Edit: BTW, we checked Superstore for a turkey ... 8 day wait for curb-side pickup!


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Thankfully our "non-essential" rules have dropped off most supermarket shopping, stores a very quiet late at night. Even with that we're mainly doing curb-side at Walmart, fast, easy, minimal wait ... last time was only 10 minutes.
> 
> One odd thing about curb-side is their inventory system, not sure how it works. We ordered a frozen turkey but they didn't have any, actually no Walmarts in our area showed stock. So I did a late night shop into Walmart and guess what ... they had 6 of the turkeys we tried to order in the freezer. We checked again that night online after I got it and ... no stock.
> 
> Edit: BTW, we checked Superstore for a turkey ... 8 day wait for curb-side pickup!


Once we went to heavy restrictions the curbsite waits skyrocketed, then they calmed down.


----------



## Beaver101

Here’s why people who receive the COVID-19 vaccine still need to wear a mask

Just to keep the anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers busy here.


----------



## OptsyEagle

That unknown is actually known well for other viruses but of course, each virus may have something unique so I can see why a politician would be over-cautious.

I think the main reason we will be asked to continue mask wearing will be until most who want a vaccine, get one. After the demand dies down, I have no doubt we will be removing masks. They are not needed anymore.

We will, of course, continue to have C-19 casualties within the unvaccinated group. That always happens even after herd immunity. It is part of the process. We will just whack-a-mole those outbreaks and deal with their fall out individually, but the rest of us will be going on with our lives.

Either force a person to get a vaccination. Incentivize them to get a vaccination. Or let them deal with the repercussions of not getting a vaccination. I can't see anything else being tolerated.


----------



## bgc_fan

I don't know if people were aware of this, but there is a dental supply shop offers Level 3 protection masks for $1.99/box of 50. 

The obvious caveat is that this seems to be a defective batch:

_Clearance - Final Sale, No Returns.

Some of these masks have a weak weld causing the elastic headband to pull away from the fabric of the mask._

That being said, if you have those fabric masks with a pocket for replacement filter liners, you can probably cut the headbands off and just use the covering itself as the filter liner.


----------



## james4beach

This article discusses incidents where passengers on flights refused to wear masks.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/airline-passengers-masks-fines-covid-1.5850825



A disproportionate number of mask violations were flights in/out of Alberta, especially Calgary. And WestJet (based in Calgary) had the most incidents of any airline, 70% of all incidents!

I plan to start flying again in the spring, but I guess this means I'd better stick with Air Canada.


----------



## OptsyEagle

When I heard that they ran a study with Hamsters wearing masks to see how well they worked I thought someone figured out how to put a mask on a hamster and keep it on. I just had to see a picture of that. Obviously hamsters do not wear masks but they managed to run their tests anyway.









These are the hamsters from a widely-shared study used as evidence that masks do work. They aren't wearing any masks.


The researchers said masks helped hamsters stay coronavirus-free, though they didn't wear them on their faces. But other researchers have questions.




www.businessinsider.com





I am not commenting on the validity of this test. I was convinced of the benefits of a face mask in 1986 and so far not much has changed my opinion on it. They certainly cannot hurt if one wears them right.

By the way. When did they decide that NOT covering up your eyes was now safe? I also wore goggles in the microbiology lab in 1986 and yes, I wear protective glasses when I go out today. Funny how they seemed to have dropped that precaution. I can't say how dangerous unprotected eyes are. Probably not overly, but I am trying to not find out the answer to that the hard way...so I wear eye protection.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> When I heard that they ran a study with Hamsters wearing masks to see how well they worked I thought someone figured out how to put a mask on a hamster and keep it on. I just had to see a picture of that. Obviously hamsters do not wear masks but they managed to run their tests anyway.


That's too bad. I was also hoping that hamsters were wearing little masks, would have loved to see photos.



OptsyEagle said:


> By the way. When did they decide that NOT covering up your eyes was now safe? I also wore goggles in the microbiology lab in 1986 and yes, I wear protective glasses when I go out today. Funny how they seemed to have dropped that precaution. I can't say how dangerous unprotected eyes are. Probably not overly, but I am trying to not find out the answer to that the hard way...so I wear eye protection.


I used to wear contact lenses much of the time, but I've completely stopped wearing contacts around other people, and now only wear glasses due to covid. I still wear contacts when I'm doing outdoor sports, away from other people (no covid risk).

If I get on a plane this spring or summer, I plan to wear the KN95 mask and try to nap, or at least keep my eyes closed most of the flight.

( I bought these KN95 masks from Shoppers Drug Mart, online. They can also be found in the stores near the band aids. )


----------



## Plugging Along

@james4beach @OptsyEagle ypu two are both right that for better protection mask ANDface shield are recommended. I am guessing they recommended just the mask (which is the higher protection of the two() because getting people to follow just that simple order is difficult enough. Also, they do mot want people replacing masks with face shields. 

If you are going on a plane or any area where you want more protection I recommend do a mask and face shield. I just recently bought a mask with equivalent n895 filter with an Eye shield attachment. it’s pretty industrial looking so I tend to wear it only when I am going to places where I feel higher risk for me or with higher risk people, like my dad.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I found another good reason to wear a mask. If you are an Ottawa Senators fan it helps hide some of the humiliation on your face when you go out in public. Kind of mandatory after what the Jets did to them last night. lol


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> I found another good reason to wear a mask. If you are an Ottawa Senators fan it helps hide some of the humiliation on your face when you go out in public. Kind of mandatory after what the Jets did to them last night. lol


Go Jets Go!

Yeah... sorry.


----------



## sags

We should be developing, manufacturing and holding in reserve, hundreds of millions of N95 masks (or even better masks). There is no excuse for not doing so.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> We should be developing, manufacturing and holding in reserve, hundreds of millions of N95 masks (or even better masks). There is no excuse for not doing so.


Best to keep your own supply of N95 masks for the future. If the gov keeps them they may ship them out to other places that may (at the time) need them so we'll be out again.


----------



## james4beach

Here's what Germany now requires in public areas. These are apparently all considered equivalent:

N95
KN95
FFP2

It's easy to find KN95 masks in Canada. They're available at Costco, London Drugs, Shoppers Drug Mart. I just ordered 20 more, online.


----------



## james4beach

The daily case numbers are strongly trending up in BC. And yet, here are the kinds of ludicrous scenes that I see on a daily basis. These weren't even the busiest places, just a couple that I saw side by side.

Golly gee wiz, I wonder how COVID might be spreading? 

The gym is insane. Don't let the reflections fool you; there are no barriers inside. It's just an open space with many maskless people, puffing and spitting all over each other.

I can't decide which is more dangerous, the gym or the cafe. Both are totally unacceptable during a pandemic. I added these photos to my scrapbook, for the memories.


----------



## Eder

Don't put too much trust into a 10 cent mask...the 2 clinical trials that have been done show no advantage (one was using M95 masks.) Keep your distance!


----------



## KaeJS

@james4beach Are you this concerned that you are actually taking pictures?


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> The daily case numbers are strongly trending up in BC. And yet, here are the kinds of ludicrous scenes that I see on a daily basis. These weren't even the busiest places, just a couple that I saw side by side.
> 
> Golly gee wiz, I wonder how COVID might be spreading?
> 
> The gym is insane. Don't let the reflections fool you; there are no barriers inside. It's just an open space with many maskless people, puffing and spitting all over each other.
> 
> I can't decide which is more dangerous, the gym or the cafe. Both are totally unacceptable during a pandemic. I added these photos to my scrapbook, for the memories.
> 
> 
> View attachment 21491
> 
> 
> View attachment 21492


That’s crazy. Gyms are still closed in Ontario...so are barbers in hard hit areas......although there is talk of loosening those restrictions even in the hardest hit areas of Peel and Toronto.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I am not going to comment on what is right or wrong when it comes to keeping gyms open. I don't use them (have my own equipment at home) so my opinion would have that bias. What I do know is that you really cannot work out well with a mask on. I did a heart stress test a few months back. Not that I needed anyone to tell me this but the technician said that no matter what "do not remove your mask". So of course I did not. 

I don't know how many people have done this test but after a couple measurements of the heart in different conditions the last test is they put the machine on a complete uphill, turn up the speed a little more and tell you to go till you can't do it anymore. I work out everyday and I am sure without my mask I could have gone considerably longer but as we know, as you exert yourself you tend to need to breathe harder. This is because your body requires more oxygen to maintain the effort. The mask severely interferes with that kind of breathing to the point that I had to call it quits a lot quicker then I would have needed to otherwise.

They said I passed (normal heart) but I wonder if they would have needed to bell curve people due to the use of a mask and how valid the test actually was. In my opinion, if you put two runners in a race. One with a mask on and one without, I can assure you the one without is going to win. There will be no comparison if the race is more then 50 yards.

They should shut down the gyms. I don't know how they can be used safely with Covid, but I don't go in them so I will leave it to others to decide.


----------



## james4beach

Opinion piece: After Covid, Let's Keep Our Masks On. Myself, I plan to always wear a mask on airplanes from now on.


It has been a year since the pandemic hit India and, for me, the oddest thing is how healthy I’ve been. Like most but not all of the people I see on the streets, I have been masked up these past 12 months. I’ve washed my hands religiously and avoided crowds. As a result, for the first time in my life, I haven’t caught a cold all year.

This is remarkable. Living in Delhi, with its crowds and its sudden changes of season, usually means one picks up pretty much every bug that’s going around.

I am not fond of masks. And, in the steam-bath summers of north India, wearing something on your face can be stifling. And yet I find myself hoping that once this pandemic ends, the habit of mask-wearing will remain.

Not all the time, of course. That might be asking too much. But wouldn’t it be great if city-dwellers across the world began to behave a little more like those in East Asia? If, during flu season, people wore masks whenever they planned to take a flight or join a crowd? That if they caught themselves sniffling, they grabbed a mask on their way out the door?​


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Opinion piece: After Covid, Let's Keep Our Masks On. Myself, I plan to always wear a mask on airplanes from now on.
> 
> ​​​


I personally would never wear a mask if it's not 100% mandatory


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Here's what Germany now requires in public areas. These are apparently all considered equivalent:
> 
> N95
> KN95
> FFP2
> 
> It's easy to find KN95 masks in Canada. They're available at Costco, London Drugs, Shoppers Drug Mart. I just ordered 20 more, online.


All those masks are BS! If you are so scared, get a real gas mask! You will be 100% safe and won't even feel a smell if somebody farted or didn't wash himself for weeks . I was wearing similar in Soviet and Israeli Army 

Just $41








MF1 Military gas mask Military quality natural rubber respirator mask Chemical prevention Nuclear pollution prevention gasmaske | Wish


Buy MF1 Military gas mask Military quality natural rubber respirator mask Chemical prevention Nuclear pollution prevention gasmaske at Wish - Shopping Made Fun




www.wish.com


----------



## MrMatt

gibor365 said:


> I personally would never wear a mask if it's not 100% mandatory


So now, during the midst of a pandemic, you wouldn't wear a mask (it isn't 100% mandatory)

What's the logic here? 

Myself I have a real respirator for when I do drywall, or paint, particularly spray paint.


----------



## kcowan

I have been wearing a mask for over a year (3 layer with replaceable filter) and I agree that it will be part of my life. Even though I have has Pfizer for 3 weeks, I still avoid crowds and mask up.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> All those masks are BS! If you are so scared, get a real gas mask! You will be 100% safe and won't even feel a smell if somebody farted or didn't wash himself for weeks . I was wearing similar in Soviet and Israeli Army
> 
> Just $41
> ...


 ... if this virus was truly "airborne", you can be sure someone will be relieving you of your "real" gas-mask.


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> All those masks are BS! If you are so scared, get a real gas mask! You will be 100% safe and won't even feel a smell if somebody farted or didn't wash himself for weeks . I was wearing similar in Soviet and Israeli Army
> 
> Just $41


Too bad those masks actually do nothing for virus. At best they have a charcoal filter that can filter out some chemical and bacteria. They have no virus protection.








Israeli 4A1 Defense Force Civilian Gas Mask Reviews - The Prepping Guide


The 4A1 Gas Mask (Israeli Gas Mask) offers affordable nuclear, biological or chemical protection to be used as a way to move or leave contaminated areas.




thepreppingguide.com












Israeli G.I. Gas Mask With Filter


The Israeli G.I. Gas Mask with NATO filter is a lightweight gas mask designed to be worn during an emergency situation. It is designed to protect the eyes and face, this gas mask features impact resistant lenses along. Since it is made out of soft flexible rubber, it feels easy on the skin. With its




www.gasmaskpro.com


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> Too bad those masks actually do nothing for virus. At best they have a charcoal filter that can filter out some chemical and bacteria. They have no virus protection.


So, you want to tell that military masks with protection against bio-weapon can't protect you from virus and 10 cents piece of cloth can?!


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> So, you want to tell that military masks with protection against bio-weapon can't protect you from virus and 10 cents piece of cloth can?!


Yes. Because the filters aren't designed for filtering out virus. They have carbon to absorb chemicals and maybe a filter for bacteria, but virus is a lot smaller. Assuming your 10 cents piece of cloth is covering your nose and mouth well, that can provide protection. They may be great in a chemical weapon environment, but provide little protection for a virus.


----------



## gibor365

bgc_fan said:


> Yes. Because the filters aren't designed for filtering out virus. They have carbon to absorb chemicals and maybe a filter for bacteria, but virus is a lot smaller. Assuming your 10 cents piece of cloth is covering your nose and mouth well, that can provide protection. They may be great in a chemical weapon environment, but provide little protection for a virus.


Not an expert, but I've heard on radio story ....one girl was telling that masks are useless as you can even smell that somebody farts... and they explained that this is because fart's particles are much smaller than Covid virus.. and in military gas mask you cannot smell anything


----------



## gibor365

Here we go








Ottawa police to use gas masks to protect against COVID-19


Given a global shortage of N95 respirator masks, Ottawa police will don their force-issued gas masks as protection should a call dictate officers could be exposed to the novel coronavirus, according to the deputy chief.




ottawacitizen.com


----------



## Eder

I only wear a mask where ordinance requires it. I won't wear one in the future as requirements begin to relax. I know people that think wearing a mask is fine forever, nothing wrong with that, just not my thing.


----------



## Eder

gibor365 said:


> Here we go
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ottawa police to use gas masks to protect against COVID-19
> 
> 
> Given a global shortage of N95 respirator masks, Ottawa police will don their force-issued gas masks as protection should a call dictate officers could be exposed to the novel coronavirus, according to the deputy chief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ottawacitizen.com


Only a 10 cent Chinese mask is socially acceptable. (or one of those cloth things lol)


----------



## bgc_fan

gibor365 said:


> Not an expert, but I've heard on radio story ....one girl was telling that masks are useless as you can even smell that somebody farts... and they explained that this is because fart's particles are much smaller than Covid virus.. and in military gas mask you cannot smell anything


You have to understand the different mechanisms in place. Cloth mask is a woven fabric meant to trap particles of a specific size. Carbon absorption is used to trap organic particles which include smells. Hence you won't smell anything. It doesn't mean it specifically filters out by size.



gibor365 said:


> Here we go
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ottawa police to use gas masks to protect against COVID-19
> 
> 
> Given a global shortage of N95 respirator masks, Ottawa police will don their force-issued gas masks as protection should a call dictate officers could be exposed to the novel coronavirus, according to the deputy chief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ottawacitizen.com


Here's the more relevant quote to point out that it may not be so useful for virus:
_Gas masks offer police protection from particulates and aerosols and are typically worn during mass demonstrations or riots._

Good for dealing with tear gas, probably not so much for virus.


----------



## OptsyEagle

There is a physical difference between a gas and a solid. A virus is a solid. I won't discuss all the gases that various idiots use to make their erroneous conclusions about masks.


----------



## james4beach

I was at a vaccination clinic today, and they made everyone coming in take off their own masks, and switch to PPE masks provided at the clinic. These were true _medical_ masks, ASTM Level 3.

Superficially they look the same as the cheaper disposable masks that we buy in the stores. But these were clearly superior. The material felt different and most importantly, they created quite a good seal around the mouth and nose. Breathing in and out made the cloth puff up. It's the first time I've seen that in a disposable mask... but I've never worn a real ASTM Level 3 before.

It's something I should buy for my stash, if I can find any in Canada. When winter comes, and especially if a new mutation occurs, it will be very important to have good masks.

I'm actually pretty impressed that the government had a huge supply of these and were providing them to everyone in the mass vaccination center.



https://www.cardinalhealth.com/content/dam/corp/web/documents/whitepaper/Face%20Mask%20Selection%20Guide.pdf


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I was at a vaccination clinic today, and they made everyone coming in take off their own masks, and switch to PPE masks provided at the clinic. These were true _medical_ masks, ASTM Level 3.
> 
> Superficially they look the same as the cheaper disposable masks that we buy in the stores. But these were clearly superior. The material felt different and most importantly, they created quite a good seal around the mouth and nose. Breathing in and out made the cloth puff up. It's the first time I've seen that in a disposable mask... but I've never worn a real ASTM Level 3 before.
> 
> It's something I should buy for my stash, if I can find any in Canada. When winter comes, and especially if a new mutation occurs, it will be very important to have good masks.
> 
> I'm actually pretty impressed that the government had a huge supply of these and were providing them to everyone in the mass vaccination center.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cardinalhealth.com/content/dam/corp/web/documents/whitepaper/Face%20Mask%20Selection%20Guide.pdf


I recall a story earlier where clinics were criticized for this behaviour……having people remove a mask to put on another mask. The argument was that in those few seconds of being maskless, you were more exposed than the small difference between A good and poor mask.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I wouldn't disagree with this at a vaccination clinic where people are supposedly to be distanced apart. However, at the "hospital" (eg. major one in TO), they required you to use "their" version of mask, presumably the real surgical mask even you had a (real) 3M N95 one on. This was last year. They relaxed this requirement this year. 

I think the difference between these (ASTM=stands for?) Level "3" medical masks with the lower levels is via the loop-on. The lower level ones loop around the ear whereas higher level loop or tie above your head for a better fit. Either ones I think are better than a home-made one or a bandana.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I recall a story earlier where clinics were criticized for this behaviour……having people remove a mask to put on another mask. The argument was that in those few seconds of being maskless, you were more exposed than the small difference between A good and poor mask.


The problem is that, if you look around, you'll see many people wearing very useless masks. There are still people wearing very thin cotton layers, many masks which do nothing at all I'm sure.

I wasn't too happy about being forced to change my mask, but the one they provided really was very good, and it's nice to know that everyone around you is in the same quality of mask.


----------



## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> I was at a vaccination clinic today, and they made everyone coming in take off their own masks, and switch to PPE masks provided at the clinic. These were true _medical_ masks, ASTM Level 3.
> 
> Superficially they look the same as the cheaper disposable masks that we buy in the stores. But these were clearly superior. The material felt different and most importantly, they created quite a good seal around the mouth and nose. Breathing in and out made the cloth puff up. It's the first time I've seen that in a disposable mask... but I've never worn a real ASTM Level 3 before.
> 
> It's something I should buy for my stash, if I can find any in Canada. When winter comes, and especially if a new mutation occurs, it will be very important to have good masks.
> 
> I'm actually pretty impressed that the government had a huge supply of these and were providing them to everyone in the mass vaccination center.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cardinalhealth.com/content/dam/corp/web/documents/whitepaper/Face%20Mask%20Selection%20Guide.pdf


Not necessarily a level 3 surgical. It was most likely a higher quality level 1 or level 2. That's how my province does it. In hospitals and the vaccine clinics you need to change the mask. The reason are that you don't know if the mask coming in has viruses on it, and this ensures everyone gets a clean mask. I went in with an industrial silicon/plastic mask with an n95 filter when I had to get a COVID test at the big clinic. I didn't want to be in the large lines of people that were all getting testing for COVID so had symptoms. I didn't want take any chances of getting COVID while being tested for COVID. Anyways, the person was quite impressed with my masks, and said I still had to change it even though my mask was probably better. I asked if they were Level 3 masks, she said 'oh no, they are not'. She told me they have the masks there for those that would 'forget', it was also a way to make sure the mask met a minimum level, which is a two layer recommendation and they could be thrown out right away. The policy also we done that all had to change so staff didn't have to make the decision on who's mask it better or not, even though people were had masks with more protection such as the N95 or mine.

I have some level 3 masks and there is a difference, your may be a level 3 but I would be surprised if that is the standard. If you to get some, there are Canadian sites that sell them retail, but they are 6-10X the prices. If you know a dentist, they have access too. I had a family member who owns a practice, order me a couple of boxes.


----------



## Eder

Thank God the stupid mask law is over in BC.I guess Horgan does believe in science. What a relief. Many people continue to wear theirs as is their right.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Thank God the stupid mask law is over in BC.I guess Horgan does believe in science. What a relief. Many people continue to wear theirs as is their right.


 ... I don't get it. What's bothering you about the (many) other people wearing their mask in BC?


----------



## Eder

Absolutely nothing...anyone that wants to wear one should be able to do so without criticism. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am just grateful that I no longer have to endure masks as I don't enjoy them and would never have worn one were it not the law.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> The problem is that, if you look around, you'll see many people wearing very useless masks. There are still people wearing very thin cotton layers, many masks which do nothing at all I'm sure.


All masks are useless, except military gas masks LOL


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Absolutely nothing...anyone that wants to wear one should be able to do so without criticism. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am just grateful that I no longer have to endure masks as I don't enjoy them and would never have worn one were it not the law.


Just beware, you might have to wear them again if we see a surge in the winter. The pandemic is not over and new mutations can change the picture.

We might still have out of control virus spread in the winter, even with vaccinations, so you might have to start wearing masks again. Just being real, man.

Look at how Israel requires indoor masks, for example.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Look at how Israel requires indoor masks, for example.


True!
_The Israeli Health Ministry says *people should wear masks in all indoor settings except the home*. Masks should also be worn in large outdoor gatherings, the government said, *such as the gay pride events *taking place this weekend_

Naked gays wearing only masks should be fun LOL


----------



## Eder

james4beach said:


> Just beware, you might have to wear them again if we see a surge in the winter. The pandemic is not over and new mutations can change the picture.
> 
> We might still have out of control virus spread in the winter, even with vaccinations, so you might have to start wearing masks again. Just being real, man.
> 
> Look at how Israel requires indoor masks, for example.



I won't be in Canada this winter...Mexico beckons. Most likely there will be no mask mandates there so I'm not worried.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I won't be in Canada this winter...Mexico beckons. Most likely there will be no mask mandates there so I'm not worried.


That sounds fun!


----------



## kcowan

Eder said:


> I won't be in Canada this winter...Mexico beckons. Most likely there will be no mask mandates there so I'm not worried.


There is a mask mandate in Mexico. It is just not enforced. In PV, there is another outbreak thanks to Delta and American visitors. (When we left, there were neglible cases in hospitals. Now they are quickly filling up!)


----------



## Plugging Along

gibor365 said:


> All masks are useless, except military gas masks LOL


this is pretty fake information. The surgeons, doctors, and dentists, and nurses dont wear gas masks.


----------



## Eder

kcowan said:


> There is a mask mandate in Mexico. It is just not enforced. In PV, there is another outbreak thanks to Delta and American visitors.


Most likely in Los Barriles (this years final destination) they haven't yet heard of Covid. I'll grab a Covid booster in California if necessary before heading down. 
How about you? Back to PV in a few months?


----------



## :) lonewolf

Would stay away from masks with graphene oxide. There are a lot of reports that test swabs, some masks from China & vaccines contain graphene oxide. Of course mainstream media & health officials deny.


----------



## sags

Mexico might have to build a wall to keep Americans out.


----------



## Beaver101

:) lonewolf said:


> Would stay away from masks with graphene oxide. There are a lot of reports that test swabs, some masks from China &* vaccines contain graphene oxide*. Of course mainstream media & health officials deny.


 ... what is the purpose of putting graphene oxide in vaccines? I can see the possibility for masks and test swabs but for vaccines? To make you stronger? Or are you getting materials for your posts from FB, Instagrm, forbiddenknowledge.net and the likes as the source of facts? Do you need a bigger tinfoil hat?


----------



## kcowan

Eder said:


> Most likely in Los Barriles (this years final destination) they haven't yet heard of Covid. I'll grab a Covid booster in California if necessary before heading down.
> How about you? Back to PV in a few months?


We just got out of quarantine on Sunday. Planning to return Nov 15


----------



## Money172375

An Ontario MPP said today that students will be wearing masks again the fall. Does that mean Ontario will still have a mask mandate in Sept? Are we the only province where masks are still required?

I don’t have a big issue with masks….but I feel for my kids who will be enduring their 3rd year of school disruptions. No cafeteria…..limited social engagements….same kids in class everyday. I was hoping the need for masks would go away by then…..for the 12+ crowd.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> An Ontario MPP said today that students will be wearing masks again the fall. Does that mean Ontario will still have a mask mandate in Sept? Are we the only province where masks are still required?
> 
> I don’t have a big issue with masks….but I feel for my kids who will be enduring their 3rd year of school disruptions. No cafeteria…..limited social engagements….same kids in class everyday. I was hoping the need for masks would go away by then…..for the 12+ crowd.


For 3 months we were the only jurisdiction in North America where indoor dining was banned! Ontario is a special place 🤣


----------



## gibor365

Plugging Along said:


> this is pretty fake information. The surgeons, doctors, and dentists, and nurses dont wear gas masks.


This is tradition , same way as judges wear black gowns and wigs 🤣


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> This is tradition , same way as judges wear black gowns and wigs 🤣


You don't actually believe this do you?


----------



## Eder

deleted because the mask thing is so yesterday anyway.


----------



## james4beach

Here is the advice from a US clinic that I used to go to. Remember that when they say "vaccinated" they mean people who have received both shots.

Notice that they advise fully vaccinated people to wear a mask if they are in large groups indoors, if there might be un vaccinated people. That's why I still wear a mask in stores and also in coffee shops, myself.

When I am hanging out with my friends and family, who I know are fully vaccinated, I won't be wearing a mask. But strangers and the general public are a whole different matter. You have no idea who they are, they might be travelling from god knows where, and they may not be vaccinated.


If you’re fully vaccinated, you can take off your mask and enjoy activities like swimming, barbecues, sports, camping and more. Indoors or outdoors, you can go without a mask if all participants are vaccinated.

Wear a mask:

In large groups where you don’t know who is vaccinated, especially indoors.
If you aren’t vaccinated, any time you are indoors away from home.
When a mask is required in a building or business.
For kids too young to be vaccinated, there’s no right answer for every situation. Kids are still vulnerable to COVID-19. Risk is highest:

Indoors.
In large groups where it’s hard to stay 6 feet from others.
With adults or teens who aren’t vaccinated.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Here is the advice from a US clinic that I used to go to. Remember that when they say "vaccinated" they mean people who have received both shots.
> 
> Notice that they advise fully vaccinated people to wear a mask if they are in large groups indoors, if there might be un vaccinated people. That's why I still wear a mask in stores and also in coffee shops, myself.
> 
> When I am hanging out with my friends and family, who I know are fully vaccinated, I won't be wearing a mask. But strangers and the general public are a whole different matter. You have no idea who they are, they might be travelling from god knows where, and they may not be vaccinated.
> 
> 
> If you’re fully vaccinated, you can take off your mask and enjoy activities like swimming, barbecues, sports, camping and more. Indoors or outdoors, you can go without a mask if all participants are vaccinated.
> 
> Wear a mask:
> 
> In large groups where you don’t know who is vaccinated, especially indoors.
> If you aren’t vaccinated, any time you are indoors away from home.
> When a mask is required in a building or business.
> For kids too young to be vaccinated, there’s no right answer for every situation. Kids are still vulnerable to COVID-19. Risk is highest:
> 
> Indoors.
> In large groups where it’s hard to stay 6 feet from others.
> With adults or teens who aren’t vaccinated.


And here is CDC guidance:








COVID-19 Vaccination


COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




www.cdc.gov






*If you are fully vaccinated**, you can resume activities that you did before the pandemic without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by laws, rules, regulations, or local guidance.*
Members of your family who are unvaccinated, have weakened immune systems, or underlying medical conditions need to continue to take steps to protect themselves from COVID-19.
If you’ve been fully vaccinated:


You can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic.
You can resume activities without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.
If you travel in the United States, you do not need to get tested before or after travel or self-quarantine after travel.
You need to pay close attention to the situation at your international destinationbefore traveling outside the United States.
You do NOT need to get tested *before* leaving the United States unless your destination requires it.
You still need to show a negative test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 *before* boarding an international flight to the United States.
You should still get tested 3-5 days *after* international travel.
You do NOT need to self-quarantine *after* arriving in the United States.

If you’ve been around someone who has COVID-19, you do not need to stay away from others or get tested unless you have symptoms.
However, if you live or work in a correctional or detention facility or a homeless shelter and are around someone who has COVID-19, you should still get tested, even if you don’t have symptoms.


----------



## james4beach

The CDC is now advising the public, including fully vaccinated people, to wear masks indoors in areas that have high rates of COVID.

The US has a very high rate of new infections, so COVID is rapidly spreading. Masks are not required everywhere, but in states or cities with high rates of spread, masks should be worn by everyone... *including* vaccinated people.

​_"In areas with substantial and high transmission, CDC recommends that fully vaccinated individuals wear a mask in public indoor settings to help prevent spread of delta and protect others," the agency said._​
Not required in Canada at the moment because we have low rates of transmission.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/u-s-cdc-mask-recommendations-1.6119553



In any case, it's always best for your own safety to wear a mask indoors in public areas, around strangers and crowds. It's such a no-brainer.


----------



## Beaver101

^ I'm surprised that the "CDC" is making this kind of advice. I thought they left the recommendation to each individual states to decide on banning the mask wearing. 

Besides, anyone with half a working brain don't need to "follow CDC's (you know the governmental control)" recommendation. They supposed to be able to think for themselves if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## damian13ster

Majority of people don't even have half a working brain.
CDC gives guidance. Individual states do as well.
When people see two different bodies give two different advices, they lost faith, so the guidance needs to align to some extent.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Majority of people don't even have half a working brain.


 ... right, only the minority does.


> CDC gives guidance. Individual states do as well.
> When people see two different bodies give two different advices, they lost faith, so the guidance needs to align to some extent.


 ... right, some still view that "guidance" as "governmental control". 

And why lose faith when the majority (according to you) with half a working brain can't think for themselves? Which is it?


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... right, only the minority does.
> ... right, some still view that "guidance" as "governmental control".
> 
> And why lose faith when the majority (according to you) with half a working brain can't think for themselves? Which is it?


Because two health bodies give you two different advice. So how can one find out which one to adhere to if they choose to or are incapable of making those choices for themselves?

Recent interviews with unvaccinated Canadians (on cbc) showed that significant portion chose not to get a shot after HealthCanada and NACI contradicted each other, shifted advices, and in general made a mess of the communication.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Because two health bodies give you two different advice. So how can one find out which one to adhere to if they choose to or are incapable of making those choices for themselves?


 ... well, according to those "who don't want or believe in governmental control", they don't have to adhere to any. For the rest of the half-working brain population, they can use their own commons sense on which choice is best for them. And as for those who are "truly incapable (in the context of mental incapacity)", they don't have a choice as someone will be making that choice for them. 



> Recent interviews with unvaccinated Canadians (on cbc) showed that significant portion chose not to get a shot after HealthCanada and NACI contradicted each other, shifted advices, and in general made a mess of the communication.


 ... give me a break, the "unvaccinated(by choice)" Canadians have already made up their hard-cored-minds regardless of HealthCanadian, NACI, WHO, their family doctor continually shifting and contradicting, each other to the moon.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... well, according to those "who don't want or believe in governmental control", they don't have to adhere to any. For the rest of the half-working brain population, they can use their own commons sense on which choice is best for them. And as for those who are "truly incapable (in the context of mental incapacity)", they don't have a choice as someone will be making that choice for them.
> 
> ... give me a break, the "unvaccinated(by choice)" Canadians have already made up their hard-cored-minds regardless of HealthCanadian, NACI, WHO, their family doctor continually shifting and contradicting, each other to the moon.


Well, if you know better what motivations of Canadians were than they do then that's fine. 
Guess you are omnipotent or at least believe yourself to be.
This was CBC article and this is the view expressed by unvaccinated.
You can claim to know better, accuse them of lying, do whatever you want. 
Simply conveying an information.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Well, if you know better what motivations of Canadians were than they do then that's fine.


 ... I don't and I don't care what motivations of these Canadians are other than they seem to think they're the only people on this planet with their rights infringed.


> Guess you are omnipotent or at least believe yourself to be.


 ... how is that when I'm not in governmental control? That's your allegation if not POV. 


> This was CBC article and this is the view expressed by unvaccinated.


 ... you never posted a link even so what article, and from CBC? 


> You can claim to know better, accuse them of lying, do whatever you want.


 ...no, I didn't claim I know better, that's your claim. And I never accused them of lying. Why do I need to "accuse" them of "lying" when they don't want to be "vaccinated" anyways when they don't trust the information coming from governmental health bodies, never mind about the inconsistent info. Two different issues. Of course, I'm going to do whatever I want and so with you.


> Simply conveying an information.


 ... sure sure sure. Just trying to stoke 'disinformation' coming from the governmental bodies due to their inconsistences which everyone with half a brain already knows that a certain bunch of people is making that attempt here.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't and I don't care what motivations of these Canadians are other than they seem to think they're the only people on this planet with their rights infringed.
> ... how is that when I'm not in governmental control? That's your allegation if not POV.
> ... you never posted a link even so what article, and from CBC?
> ...no, I didn't claim I know better, that's your claim. And I never accused them of lying. Why do I need to "accuse" them of "lying" when they don't want to be "vaccinated" anyways when they don't trust the information coming from governmental health bodies, never mind about the inconsistent info. Two different issues. Of course, I'm going to do whatever I want and so with you.
> ... sure sure sure. Just trying to stroke 'disinformation' coming from the governmental bodies due to their inconsistences which everyone with half a brain knows that a certain bunch of people is making that attempt here.


You are not reading. You just spout nonsense without actually paying attention what others are saying.

Some individuals are making a choice. They make a choice based on data available and opinions of others.
If opinion given to them by Health Canada and NACI contradicts each other, is chaotic, and not trustworthy, then it raises hesitancy.
Psychologically humans are geared toward inaction during such uncertainty.
It has nothing to do with governmental control or rights - stop spewing nonsense.

it is simply about people trying to make a decision while health authorities contradict each other and make absolute mess of communication - which introduces doubt - which leads to natural reaction - inaction.

Sorry, didn't know that writing paragraphs completely unrelated things is fine use of your time but quick google search is not:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/meet-the-unvaccinated-why-some-canadians-haven-t-had-a-shot-1.6115270


----------



## sags

Wearing a mask will be around until a stronger vaccine or better treatments are developed.

The Delta has changed everything and it is likely there is more to come. The latest one.......Lambda is circulating in some countries.


----------



## MrMatt

sags said:


> Wearing a mask will be around until a stronger vaccine or better treatments are developed.
> 
> The Delta has changed everything and it is likely there is more to come. The latest one.......Lambda is circulating in some countries.


It's not a "stronger" vaccine, it is a vaccine targetted at the particular virus you want to stop.
The reason delta is a problem now, is it's actually more dangerous, and the current vaccines aren't targetted at it.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> You are not reading. You just spout nonsense without actually paying attention what others are saying.


 ... yes, I'm spouting nonsense as a direct response to your spout of nonsense or that you're simplying "conveying information". Right. So why should I be paying attention to that? You can spin it anyway you want and can continue to claim my comprehension sucks. I'm fine with it as I long as I know what's your underlying motive is.



> Some individuals are making a choice. They make a choice based on data available and opinions of others.
> If opinion given to them by Health Canada and NACI contradicts each other, is chaotic, and not trustworthy, then it raises hesitancy.


 ...of course, they're making a choice. Whether that choice is based on "data available" and the "opinion of others" is up to them. Just as it's up to you and it's up to me. And you can be sure that I'll not make my choice based on the "data available" presented by you along with "your opinions".


> Psychologically humans are geared toward inaction during such uncertainty.


 ... kinda late, don't you think in a crisis such as a pandemic ... some year plus?


> It has nothing to do with governmental control or rights - stop spewing nonsense.


 ... no you were the one b1tching about "government" control and repeatedly so with even your recent argument HealthCanada, NACI, etc. sending mixed messages. Ie. people can't decide for themselves and can't act because the government is saying one thing plus another sending so this is not a form of control (to you), then what is it? The rest of us with the half of working brain can decide for ourselves based on our own common sense without the need of you to having to identify this to us.



> it is simply about people trying to make a decision while health authorities contradict each other and make absolute mess of communication - which introduces doubt - which leads to natural reaction - inaction.


 ... are we still waiting for the vaccines? The mask wearing? The social distancing. Or the nut cases? So what inaction?



> Sorry, didn't know that writing paragraphs completely unrelated things is fine use of your time but quick google search is not:
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/meet-the-unvaccinated-why-some-canadians-haven-t-had-a-shot-1.6115270


 ... well, you're the one who needs to rely on "data" and "facts finding" as support to rebutting any responses you get. And I'm not going to waste my time googling your homework/requirements.


----------



## Spudd

damian13ster said:


> And here is CDC guidance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If you are fully vaccinated**, you can resume activities that you did before the pandemic without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by laws, rules, regulations, or local guidance.*
> Members of your family who are unvaccinated, have weakened immune systems, or underlying medical conditions need to continue to take steps to protect themselves from COVID-19.
> If you’ve been fully vaccinated:
> 
> 
> You can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic.
> You can resume activities without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.
> If you travel in the United States, you do not need to get tested before or after travel or self-quarantine after travel.
> You need to pay close attention to the situation at your international destinationbefore traveling outside the United States.
> You do NOT need to get tested *before* leaving the United States unless your destination requires it.
> You still need to show a negative test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 *before* boarding an international flight to the United States.
> You should still get tested 3-5 days *after* international travel.
> You do NOT need to self-quarantine *after* arriving in the United States.
> 
> If you’ve been around someone who has COVID-19, you do not need to stay away from others or get tested unless you have symptoms.
> However, if you live or work in a correctional or detention facility or a homeless shelter and are around someone who has COVID-19, you should still get tested, even if you don’t have symptoms.


They changed their minds.

To reduce the risk of being infected with the Delta variant and possibly spreading it to others, wear a mask indoors in public if you are in an area of substantial or high transmission.









COVID-19 Vaccination


COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> Besides, anyone with half a working brain don't need to "follow CDC's (you know the governmental control)" recommendation. They supposed to be able to think for themselves if I'm not mistaken.


This is not how people function, unfortunately. We've seen this throughout the pandemic actually.

The public *does* need government to give them guidance. For example, people like me who watch the data knew that interior BC had a powerful COVID outbreak developing. It was pretty clear... I certainly would (and have been) wearing a mask due to the risk from the interior, Kelowna, etc.

But people there don't automatically adjust. Partly it's because people have other concerns in life, day to day things. Not everyone watches the news and data and responds.

Now the government has decided to declare the interior BC outbreak and is requiring masks as of midnight tonight.


----------



## AltaRed

james4beach said:


> Now the government has decided to declare the interior BC outbreak and is requiring masks as of midnight tonight.


Too many neanderthals thinking that masks should not be worn rather than understanding masking only changed from mandatory to optional. The stats are almost exclusively the 20-40 crowd that has not yet been vaccinated or have had only one vaccination. What did the gov't think was going to happen in a major primary vacation/tourist destination in Western Canada?

P.S. This 14 day masking mandate is only for the Central Okanagan (RDCO).


----------



## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> Too many neanderthals thinking that masks should not be worn rather than understanding masking only changed from mandatory to optional. The stats are almost exclusively the 20-40 crowd that has not yet been vaccinated or have had only one vaccination. What did the gov't think was going to happen in a major primary vacation/tourist destination in Western Canada?
> 
> P.S. This 14 day masking mandate is only for the Central Okanagan (RDCO).


Thanks for clarifying the region, I wasn't sure.

Yeah, I'm disappointed with the 20-40 yos (my age group). Something similar is going to happen in Whistler. My friends were just out there and saying that nobody wears masks indoors... it's party central.


----------



## AltaRed

RDCO is Regional District of Central Okanagan and includes the municipalities of Lake Country, Kelowna, West Kelowna, Westbank First Nations and Peachland with about 250,000 people, maybe 50-100k more than that now in tourist season.

The specifics on the mask mandate issue are here. The chart at the bottom of the article is telling in terms of how poorly the 'broader' BC Interior is doing (most of the cases being in RDCO portion of the BC Interior).


----------



## james4beach

Any ideas what sparked this enormous spread in the BC interior?

I was thinking that maybe the intense heat and air conditioning played a role. Everyone is probably trapped indoors with the AC running (how else would you do it)? So that pretty much creates winter-like conditions. Could that be doing it?

Kelowna is 36 to 40 degrees in the next few days everyone is in AC. No natural ventilation, and people are meeting indoors instead of outdoors.

Notice that Las Vegas also has a very high rate of spread these days. It's also way too hot in Las Vegas and everyone is trapped indoors with AC.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Any ideas what sparked this enormous spread in the BC interior?


I have no specific information but I am suspecting this Delta variant is much more contagious then we can imagine at this time but will be seeing it unfold in real time, very shortly.

That said, we need to be careful reading too much into infection numbers. There are two types of infections that don't really mean all that much to us. Most vaccinated infections are non-events with a few exceptions. Asymptomatic and mild infections among the unvaccinated use to be a concern but now are really a godsend. Any unvaccinated person in our society is going to be a problem until they are exposed to the virus or vaccine. So when I see an outbreak, without too much strain on our health system, all I see is the best future ahead of us.

I know a mild infection on one person can lead to a severe infection to another but as I said, they are all going to have to get exposed eventually, so what can we really do if they refuse vaccination. Luckily for us it seems like this Delta variant is going to shorten the time we have to witness this carnage to a much smaller time frame then we would have seen with the other variants. In any case, the unvaccinated have chosen this route and there is not much else we can do but hopefully get it over with quickly.


----------



## andrewf

Masks/distancing are needed until level of infection and rate of spread are both low. We're getting there. A bit premature to opening wide up, but hopefully the seasonality of COVID helps us avoid another wave while we're driving vaccination to 85-90%.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Masks/distancing are needed until level of infection and rate of spread are both low. We're getting there. A bit premature to opening wide up, but hopefully the seasonality of COVID helps us avoid another wave while we're driving vaccination to 85-90%.


I still think we might be resting too heavily on the vaccines. It seems like a dangerous strategy to me, since new variants can evade the vaccines.

Instead if we advised ongoing public caution while the pandemic runs its course, we would be more resilient in case a bad new variant emerges. I personally think we should be viewing the vaccine as one of many layers of defence, and not the solitary line of defence.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I still think we might be resting too heavily on the vaccines. It seems like a dangerous strategy to me, since new variants can evade the vaccines.


I say let the hospitalization numbers will tell the story to see if vaccines are working. Our vaccine uptakes are pretty high already so put them to the test. If a new variant comes along that proves troublesome they can adapt with restrictions pretty quickly, everyone knows the drill.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> I still think we might be resting too heavily on the vaccines. It seems like a dangerous strategy to me, since new variants can evade the vaccines.
> 
> Instead if we advised ongoing public caution while the pandemic runs its course, we would be more resilient in case a bad new variant emerges. I personally think we should be viewing the vaccine as one of many layers of defence, and not the solitary line of defence.


First of all, the vaccines are working great. If something changes like the rare virus evading the vaccine we can deal with that when it happens. 2ndly, we don't have any other plan. These precautions were only meant to be in place until the vaccines were implemented and rolled out. After that, we knew we would eventually have to face this virus. The lion's share of our fully vaccinated population are safe to do so. We know that. 

Let's quit worrying about the unknown, go into the dark room, and turn on the friggin light, and be done with this.


----------



## Beaver101

The latest "rule" for Ontarians:

Indoor masking to remain in place when Ontario exits COVID-19 reopening roadmap



> _The Ontario government is providing the clearest picture so far of what restrictions will look like once the province exits its reopening roadmap plan following the lengthy COVID-19 lockdown and *masks will remain a part of the landscape. *
> ...
> The Ministry of health said that the requirement to continue masking indoors “is consistent with other jurisdictions” such as Quebec and Israel and also is in line with recently updated guidance from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control that fully vaccinated people begin wearing masks indoors again in locations with high COVID-19 transmission rates.
> 
> More to come..._


 ... I would not be surprised this requirement will go into the end of this year provided there's no temporary lift.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> I say let the hospitalization numbers will tell the story to see if vaccines are working. Our vaccine uptakes are pretty high already so put them to the test. If a new variant comes along that proves troublesome they can adapt with restrictions pretty quickly, everyone knows the drill.


Yes, absolutely. We can watch hospital numbers and adapt as needed.

I just hope the public is willing to adapt to, ya know, not die.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Yes, absolutely. We can watch hospital numbers and adapt as needed.
> 
> I just hope the public is willing to adapt to, ya know, not die.


We're almost at 70% (probably tomorrow) fully vaccinated here and they have reported before that very few of those are ever admitted to hospital. So with 7 out of 10 protected the numbers shouldn't get out of control ... unless all the un-vaxed get together in the same place. 

I think they are planning on dropping the mask requirement here once we hit 80/75% (single/full) numbers which will likely be in just a few weeks.


----------



## Synergy

cainvest said:


> So with 7 out of 10 protected the numbers shouldn't get out of control ... unless all the un-vaxed get together in the same place.


Don't forgot about kids under the age of 12 and back to school.


----------



## AltaRed

james4beach said:


> Any ideas what sparked this enormous spread in the BC interior?


Trapped indoors due to the heat and smokey conditions are likely part of it but I suspect it is mostly the partying going on in close spaces, including outdoors, raves, boat parties, camping parties, nightclubs and bars, etc. Staff at such businesses are testing positive as well causing many to shut down for days or a week or more. There were a lot of people milling on the boardwalk this past Tuesday when we went to the downtown marina to pick up a boat for watersking and tubing. It does not take much for people in close quarters. Almost all the infections are Delta variant and almost all positive tests are from the unvaccinated.


----------



## cainvest

Synergy said:


> Don't forgot about kids under the age of 12 and back to school.


Guess they'll have to make a call on that one ... masks maybe? Have the hospitalizations for kids under 12 got out of control anywhere?


----------



## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> Trapped indoors due to the heat and smokey conditions are likely part of it but I suspect it is mostly the partying going on in close spaces, including outdoors, raves, boat parties, camping parties, nightclubs and bars, etc. Staff at such businesses are testing positive as well causing many to shut down for days or a week or more. There were a lot of people milling on the boardwalk this past Tuesday when we went to the downtown marina to pick up a boat for watersking and tubing. It does not take much for people in close quarters. Almost all the infections are Delta variant and almost all positive tests are from the unvaccinated.


That's a good point. I've seen many parties and crowds in my city as well. People really are packing in closely. Even if it's outdoors, they are sure to transmit it among each other.


----------



## Money172375

Doctor on CNN compared the risk of airborne covid to cigarette smoking. If you could smell someone smoking, then you get get COVID at the same distance. He said social distancing at 6 feet is useless….Even outdoors to some extent. 

he said we should all imagine that someone is smoking. If you think you could smell the smoke while someone was smoking, then you’re probably too close or too confined to be safe from covid. 

really puts into perspective how this thing spreads..


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Doctor on CNN compared the risk of airborne covid to cigarette smoking. *If you could smell someone smoking, then you get get COVID at the same distance. He said social distancing at 6 feet is useless….Even outdoors to some extent. *
> 
> he said we should all imagine that someone is smoking. *If you think you could smell the smoke while someone was smoking, then you’re probably too close or too confined to be safe from covid.*


 ... I thought about that as I can smell the "smoke" from the cigarettes even with a mask on.



> really puts into perspective how this thing spreads..


 ... I would move/stand far far away (if all possible) so I don't have (nor can stand) the smell of it . Smoke or any fumes is especially bad for people with asthma. This ought to take care of bad breaths, as well as Covid.


----------



## OptsyEagle

OK. Let me put this another way. What do we do if the last 30% of the unvaccinated NEVER vaccinate or want to take forever waiting until they do (more then 5 years)? Remember the majority of the vaccinated are not going to be the ones getting really sick or dying, from covid, no matter what they do. We know that already.

So what is everybody's plan then?


----------



## Beaver101

^ Who is the "we"? General population or CMF members?

My hypothesis is that % is going to shrink when either when the 4th wave hits or the individual needs to go back to work. What else can "we" do when the vaccine remains "voluntary"?

And yes, life doesn't stop until we have everyone vaccinated which will be impossible as there'll be a very small part of the population who can't for medical reasons. The rest (aka die-hard antivaxxers) are just being artificially brave and truly assinined (or the other way around based on their individual perspective right).


----------



## nathan79

They have no plan except for continuing what we've been doing for the past 18 months. I get the impression that some would have us continue masking and social distancing permanently.

The vaccines are widespread now, so basically everyone who wants one can get it. It's unlikely that COVID is ever going away completely, so I think it's time to carry on with normal life.


----------



## OptsyEagle

nathan79 said:


> They have no plan except for continuing what we've been doing for the past 18 months. I get the impression that some would have us continue masking and social distancing permanently.
> 
> The vaccines are widespread now, so basically everyone who wants one can get it. It's unlikely that COVID is ever going away completely, so I think it's time to carry on with normal life.


That is my point. I have no problem waiting if there was something to wait for. Some of the ideas various governments are coming up with to get more people to come forward for vaccine are interesting but in my opinion each idea will only bring forward a few of them and to get the numbers vaccinated that might kill this virus will take forever. Even if we want to wait for that vaccination number, the virus will get them long before it anyway...and frankly, I am tired of waiting for these people. They have had enough time and whether they understood the question or not, they have decided to take the infection over the vaccine. So, lets get on with that then. We can resume waiting if too many of them are hospitalized but there is pretty good reason to believe our hospitals will be able to handle it.

This complaining upthread about observing a party of people outside, gathering close together, and then pointing some negative finger at it, is ridiculous. They are outside. We have no idea how many are vaccinated, and even if none are, so be it. We can't live like the past forever. If you are vaccinated and reasonably healthy, this virus poses little threat to you anymore. If you don't believe that then you really need to start investigating the situation much closer then you have, because the vaccines are working great.

So why all the waiting. Again. Waiting for what?


----------



## sags

Waiting for the infection to stop spreading so rapidly, I would guess.

We will see what the fourth wave brings with it. After enough people are vaccinated, assuming they still protect since apparently the protection declines a little every day after vaccination, life will return.....but may not be normal for a long time.

Maybe there will be boosters in pill form or nasal spray.....who knows.

There maybe a new normal.....masking here or there, outbreaks and places closing down for awhile, steady hospitalization. Vulnerable people may have to change their lifestyles.

We don't know what the future is any more than we knew when the virus first appeared.

Nobody predicted we were going to have the Delta variant become dominant.

Basically....we go with the flow and react to what the virus does.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Waiting for the infection to stop spreading so rapidly, I would guess.


And how long do you think we can really wait for that? That will only happen when about 95% of our population are inoculated by either vaccine or previous infection. I doubt we would ever get to that number with vaccination but even if we could, as I said the virus will not give us that much time. So, since these unvaccinated people WILL be getting infected, why delay it? Until the hospitals get overwhelmed, it is just a delay without benefit. As for the hospitals getting overwhelmed, I doubt that will happen but it has a lot of variables to it. The main reason it should not happen is because we are only dealing with about 1/5th of our population that should require it for Covid reasons as compared to how many were vulnerable before in the last wave.

Don't get me wrong. The next wave will be scary, but it will come whether we cower in our homes and behind masks or if we go on with our lives. The vaccinated have very little risk, so again, why are we waiting.

Before anyone responds, please give ALL the variables a little more thought and you will see that I am right. There is no other course of action that will provide a higher benefit other then delaying a wave that will come anyway with either higher numbers over less time or lower numbers over longer time. Now compare that benefit, if that really is one, to the other costs associated with this delay, like limiting access to businesses, shutting down various activities that cannot use masks and require close contact, etc. etc. Think of schools and mental health and businesses on the brink of bankruptcy and I ask again, why are waiting?

Until we all go into this dark room and turn on our individual lights, we will always be facing the unknown monster. That monster is gone for the vaccinated. The room is now empty. Just go turn on the light and see for yourself, or at the least, stop pointing fingers at the people who already have.


----------



## Eder

Interesting thing regarding masks....my wife just saw her eye specialist and he found a small growth in her left eye. He said since mask wearing has been routine for so long he is finding that problem is becoming common. He blames it on constant persons breath being directed upwards.

At any rate I'm happy Alberta has moved forward , hospitalizations are negligible and its time to get back to normal. Of course the only media coverage is about some doctors disagreeing with Hinshaw and not the majority of experts that agree with the move Figures. Even the mayor of Calgary is touted an expert now lol.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Interesting thing regarding masks....my wife just saw her eye specialist and he found a small growth in her left eye. He said since mask wearing has been routine for so long he is finding that problem is becoming common. He blames it on constant persons breath being directed upwards.


So what happens to doctors (surgeons) and nurses who normally wear masks all the time? People who work in surgery, hospital admissions, etc. are constantly wearing masks -- and have forever, long before covid.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... I thought about that as I can smell the "smoke" from the cigarettes even with a mask on.


There are many misconceptions around masks and smells. The cigarette smoke test is useless for testing mask effectiveness against viruses.

Summary version: just because you can smell smoke through a mask, doesn't mean the mask isn't stopping virus particles. Smoke includes gases, and the common masks we use aren't trying to stop gases.

Cigarette smoke consists of three things: fine particles, *and* gases, *and* VOCs

So when you smell cigarettes or smoke from a fire, your nose is picking up a bunch of different things. Masks, even N95, are designed to stop particles of a certain size. They don't stop gases. Gas molecules are much smaller particles than what the N95 is designed for.

A mask can protect you against airborne viruses. The COVID virus always sits alongside a glob of water and/or mucous. The combined size can be stopped by N95 and in fact even surgical masks. In reality these particles are not stopped entirely. You're simply stopping a % of them, and others get through. Any reduction in the amount of viruses getting through is a "win" but obviously, the more you stop, the better.

The GAS part of smoke, however, can get through the same mask. So the same mask which stops the COVID virus can still let through smoke vapours / gases / VOCs.

For what it's worth, though, during last year's big forest fires, I found that a KN95 mask did diminish the smell of forest fire smoke. It's probably stopping much of the particles. I'm not sure if it's stopping any of the gases and VOCs. By the way this is why you are still exposed to hazardous conditions during forest fire smoke, even with a solid N95 or KN95. You're stopping the big smoke particles -- which is great -- but toxic gases and VOCs are still getting through your mask.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> Doctor on CNN compared the risk of airborne covid to cigarette smoking. If you could smell someone smoking, then you get get COVID at the same distance. He said social distancing at 6 feet is useless….Even outdoors to some extent.
> 
> he said we should all imagine that someone is smoking. If you think you could smell the smoke while someone was smoking, then you’re probably too close or too confined to be safe from covid.
> 
> really puts into perspective how this thing spreads..


I think this is a bit flawed. See my above detailed post. Where CNN is correct is that being able to smell someone's smoking, or their perfume, is probably an indication that you are too close. For example if you're in public, and you smell someone's stinky body odour, you probably are WAY too close to them -- in danger distance.

I would consider that a rule of thumb. Gases are not equivalent to aerosol COVID.


----------



## Eder

james4beach said:


> So what happens to doctors (surgeons) and nurses who normally wear masks all the time? People who work in surgery, hospital admissions, etc. are constantly wearing masks -- and have forever, long before covid.


I doubt surgeons wear masks 8 hours a day .
At any rate this is coming from an eye surgeon that wears masks...but of course common internet education supplants that am i right?


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> I think this is a bit flawed. See my above detailed post. Where CNN is correct is that being able to smell someone's smoking, or their perfume, is probably an indication that you are too close. For example if you're in public, and you smell someone's stinky body odour, you probably are WAY too close to them -- in danger distance.
> 
> I would consider that a rule of thumb. Gases are not equivalent to aerosol COVID.


That's the problem. You have doctors spewing BS like that, and when they actually talk the truth people simply no longer listen to them.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> There are many misconceptions around masks and smells. The cigarette smoke test is useless for testing mask effectiveness against viruses.
> 
> Summary version: just because you can smell smoke through a mask, doesn't mean the mask isn't stopping virus particles. Smoke includes gases, and the common masks we use aren't trying to stop gases.
> 
> Cigarette smoke consists of three things: fine particles, *and* gases, *and* VOCs
> 
> So when you smell cigarettes or smoke from a fire, your nose is picking up a bunch of different things. Masks, even N95, are designed to stop particles of a certain size. They don't stop gases. Gas molecules are much smaller particles than what the N95 is designed for.
> 
> A mask can protect you against airborne viruses. The COVID virus always sits alongside a glob of water and/or mucous. The combined size can be stopped by N95 and in fact even surgical masks. In reality these particles are not stopped entirely. You're simply stopping a % of them, and others get through. Any reduction in the amount of viruses getting through is a "win" but obviously, the more you stop, the better.
> 
> The GAS part of smoke, however, can get through the same mask. So the same mask which stops the COVID virus can still let through smoke vapours / gases / VOCs.
> 
> For what it's worth, though, during last year's big forest fires, I found that a KN95 mask did diminish the smell of forest fire smoke. It's probably stopping much of the particles. I'm not sure if it's stopping any of the gases and VOCs. By the way this is why you are still exposed to hazardous conditions during forest fire smoke, even with a solid N95 or KN95. You're stopping the big smoke particles -- which is great -- but toxic gases and VOCs are still getting through your mask.


I don’t think his point was around mask effectiveness. Just trying to “dumb” things down a bit for the average person on now covid spreads. If you can smell someone, you’re probably too close.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> There are many misconceptions around masks and smells. The cigarette smoke test is useless for testing mask effectiveness against viruses.
> 
> Summary version: just because you can smell smoke through a mask, doesn't mean the mask isn't stopping virus particles. Smoke includes gases, and the common masks we use aren't trying to stop gases.
> 
> Cigarette smoke consists of three things: fine particles, *and* gases, *and* VOCs
> 
> So when you smell cigarettes or smoke from a fire, your nose is picking up a bunch of different things. Masks, even N95, are designed to stop particles of a certain size. They don't stop gases. Gas molecules are much smaller particles than what the N95 is designed for.
> 
> A mask can protect you against airborne viruses. The COVID virus always sits alongside a glob of water and/or mucous. The combined size can be stopped by N95 and in fact even surgical masks. In reality these particles are not stopped entirely. You're simply stopping a % of them, and others get through. Any reduction in the amount of viruses getting through is a "win" but obviously, the more you stop, the better.
> 
> The GAS part of smoke, however, can get through the same mask. So the same mask which stops the COVID virus can still let through smoke vapours / gases / VOCs.
> 
> For what it's worth, though, during last year's big forest fires, I found that a KN95 mask did diminish the smell of forest fire smoke. It's probably stopping much of the particles. I'm not sure if it's stopping any of the gases and VOCs. By the way this is why you are still exposed to hazardous conditions during forest fire smoke, even with a solid N95 or KN95. You're stopping the big smoke particles -- which is great -- but toxic gases and VOCs are still getting through your mask.


 ... let me put it this way. By not smelling the smoke, I know I'm not close to Covid either since the latter is bigger than smoke particles (as per your reminding clarification).

As for "persistent/constant smoke" coming from forest fires, I would seriously consider gas masks if I was living/working in the area. Over the past "few days", Ontario was having poor air quality (some northern forest fires (which isn't anywhere as bad as BC/California plus city polllution), I just stay indoors and have the air filtration systems on. I don't need to have any mask/face/mouth covering on.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> I don’t think his point was around mask effectiveness. Just trying to “dumb” things down a bit for the average person on now covid spreads. * If you can smell someone, you’re probably too close.*


 ... I can smell cigarettes' smoke 10 feet away (if not more), let alone 6 feet. The smoke drifts.

And then you have the 'elevator' smell problem ... try practicing holding your breath for at least 3 minutes going up to the ##th floor trying not to smell something coming from a musk.


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I don’t think his point was around mask effectiveness. Just trying to “dumb” things down a bit for the average person on now covid spreads. If you can smell someone, you’re probably too close.


Yes and I think it's a good rule of thumb. If you're around people and can smell them, you're too close -- in the "danger zone" to catch a disease


----------



## Eder

If you can smell people I think you need to upgrade your neighbourhood.


----------



## bgc_fan

Beaver101 said:


> ... I can smell cigarettes' smoke 10 feet away (if not more), let alone 6 feet. The smoke drifts.
> 
> And then you have the 'elevator' smell problem ... try practicing holding your breath for at least 3 minutes going up to the ##th floor trying not to smell something coming from a musk.


In fairness, cigarette smoke is a gas, so it's not going be as affected by gravity as virus will be on particulates, which is where you get the 6 feet rule of thumb.


----------



## MrMatt

bgc_fan said:


> In fairness, cigarette smoke is a gas, so it's not going be as affected by gravity as virus will be on particulates, which is where you get the 6 feet rule of thumb.


Smoke is particulate, not gas. 
The gas isn't even really a big deal, bit of CO and CO2 and a few others.


----------



## bgc_fan

MrMatt said:


> Smoke is particulate, not gas.
> The gas isn't even really a big deal, bit of CO and CO2 and a few others.


Part is gas, part is particulate. The part that smells is primarily gas.


----------



## cainvest

Manitoba dropping mask requirements this Saturday.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Manitoba dropping mask requirements this Saturday.


It is starting to look to me like someone within these government departments (Alberta and Manitoba) is introducing these premiers to the concept that I have introduced to this board about the final end game for this pandemic. In other words, there will not be any herd immunity, only protected citizens, and we will not have protected citizens until over 95% are either vaccinated or previously infected, and since the vaccination program is starting to slow down, the only avenue left for protection is infection recovery. Not only will infection inevitably happen, for the vast majority of citizens who decline the vaccine, but precautions and lockdowns simply delay what will happen sooner or later no matter what we do. Add to that the fact that we have already seen that infections during the warmer months tend to be much safer then infections obtained indoors during the colder months, the worse being fall and spring, it makes sense to reduce these restrictions as quickly as we can during the summer.

It is certtainly dangerous to do, but unfortuneately, more dangerous to wait.


----------



## sags

Any examples of where this type of plan has worked ?


----------



## sags

The US is finding an increasing number of children catching the virus and being hospitalized.

A rising number of kids are in the ICUs and on ventilators. Re-opening schools is a terrible idea.

Cases among children has gone up 84% in one week in the US and 5 times what they were in June. They are also becoming very sick from the virus. The notion that children get the virus and are asymptomatic or suffer no negative symptoms is demonstrably a false one.

Re-opening everything during a raging pandemic isn't working out well in Florida.

They now have record levels of hospitalizations and it is getting worse.

_With the much more contagious delta variant now spreading exponentially, Florida had 11,515 hospitalized patients Tuesday, breaking last year's record for the third straight day. *Hospitalizations have increased 11 times over the 1,000 COVID patients hospitalized in mid-June. About 2,400 patients are now in intensive care.*_ 



https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/florida-covid-19-hospitalizations-1.6127804


----------



## Beaver101

^ We'll put the plan in place as soon as the 4th wave hits. That's how we learn.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> Any examples of where this type of plan has worked ?


Every pandemic before where humanity lost control of the virus. There has been a lot.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Any examples of where this type of plan has worked ?


Might be bit early, but perhaps India, if it is true that over 2/3 have antibodies.
They didn't have vaccination though so latest curve got squashed purely by natural immunity - just at the higher cost because of lack of vaccines.


----------



## sags

Ontario is going to open up schools with no vaccination requirements. That should work out well.


----------



## OptsyEagle

I should add, that the only part of my scenario that I would consider a plan is whether we open up quickly and let the natural inoculations for the unvaccinated happen quicker, or open up slowly and let them drag on for years. The part about them getting infected is not a plan but simply a statement of the only course this pandemic can follow from this point we're at.

With that said, opening up quickly and taking advantage of the warmer weather is not an overly beneficial opportunity simply because the window for that is quickly closing. We have maybe 6 or 7 weeks of warm weather ahead of us before the chilly days and evenings will be upon us and Canadians will want to move inside.

So frankly, I don't really care whether we take away mask mandates or keep them in place. They won't make much difference either way at this late stage of weather cycle and we consider that they are almost always removed when socializing. Soon we will all be going inside and if you find yourself there, especially if unvaccinated, but even for the vaccinated, do your best to get the air circulating to some degree or limit your time there. That means opening windows, running the blowers of furnaces (they do not require cooling or heating for this) or running fans. The virus, if there is any, will get to everyone in the room anyway, but its concentration can be reduced this way to a level that will mostly provide a boost to your immune system, as opposed to a severe infection. We know this already.

That said, I know it is not easy to open windows in someone else's house or convince them to turn on a furnace system when heat or cooling is not required, and not everyone has a fan or wants to use them. So, with that in mind, again be careful. There is a dose of infection out there that can kill any of us, vaccinated (although less likely) or not. Just keep that in mind while you are enjoying the company of others. After a few minor run ins with this virus, which should happen for most of us soon, we will all be able to forget all this stuff very soon and truly enjoy our lives.

That is how the pandemic will go.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> It is certtainly dangerous to do, but unfortuneately, more dangerous to wait.


Not really dangerous anymore as the hospitalizations/deaths have been greatly reduced due to the good vaccine uptake in Canada. In other words, the vast majority are now protected so no current reason to keep restrictions in place.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> Ontario is going to open up schools with no vaccination requirements. That should work out well.


Manitoba is doing the same, should be fine.


----------



## OptsyEagle

cainvest said:


> Not really dangerous anymore as the hospitalizations/deaths have been greatly reduced due to the good vaccine uptake in Canada. In other words, the vast majority are now protected so no current reason to keep restrictions in place.


Still very dangerous to the unvaccinated and as infections rise, which they will, very dangerous to political careers due to too many people not understanding how this is all going to play out and allocating blame improperly. That was really what I meant.

That said, nothing we can do about it, except delaying tactics. We may possibly need to come back to those (restrictions) over the fall and winter, we will see, but for now, I agree, not dangerous enough from a pandemic point of view to continue the restrictions.


----------



## cainvest

OptsyEagle said:


> Still very dangerous to the unvaccinated and as infections rise


Could be but looking at the numbers here most of the unvaccinated are younger. It's now their call to manage the risk themselves and typically the younger crowd has been pushing for less restrictions all along. No real other way I see to play this out.


----------



## sags

What do the pediatric doctors looking after the kids with covid say ?

They are the only opinions that I would listen to.

Their only agenda is to keep the kids healthy and well.


----------



## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Could be but looking at the numbers here most of the unvaccinated are younger. It's now their call to manage the risk themselves and typically the younger crowd has been pushing for less restrictions all along. No real other way I see to play this out.


But it makes sense.

Those at highest risk should take the most precautions, those at lower risk shouldn't bother.

That's why in some countries they're starting boosters for the most at risk populations.

The reason that the Under 12 vaccine is much less urgent is because COVID simply doesn't kill many kids. But IMO they've carried a pretty heavy burden from this whole thing.


----------



## cainvest

sags said:


> What do the pediatric doctors looking after the kids with covid say ?


The same thing they'd say to kids that get any other disease?


----------



## sags

The bottom line is they expect a big jump in infections in schools and don't know if the symptoms will be worse with the Delta variant. Due to increased numbers the numbers of serious cases will no doubt increase as well.









COVID-19 is surging in American kids. Here’s what Canadian parents need to know - National | Globalnews.ca


The Delta variant is now also the main circulating variant of the virus in many parts of Canada and experts say a jump in infections in kids is likely this fall.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Money172375

We need to stop talking about cases and start talking about hospitalizations.

ontario seems to want to be the last “mask” holdout. Province rolled out the back to school plan. Doesn’t seem too different than last years….when apparently Ontario had the longest school closures in the world?

I have a feeling all school aged children will be eligible for the vax before Christmas.


----------



## sags

True......if hospitalizations rise quickly everything will change again.

If not.....happy days are here again.


----------



## Eder

Not one person under 20 has succumbed to Covid in Alberta....unlike many other diseases that were ignored in the last 16 months.


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> I say let the hospitalization numbers will tell the story to see if vaccines are working. Our vaccine uptakes are pretty high already so put them to the test. If a new variant comes along that proves troublesome they can adapt with restrictions pretty quickly, everyone knows the drill.


High levels of infection in a vaccinated population are a recipe for breeding vaccine resistant strains. It's actually quite reckless from a public health standpoint.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> High levels of infection in a vaccinated population are a recipe for breeding vaccine resistant strains.


As opposed to a huge number of infections in an unvaccinated population?


----------



## james4beach

I don't know about the rest of you, but I saw the dentist today and the visit still freaked me out. I spent a total of 3 hours in there, mostly without a mask.

Really hoping that I didn't catch covid in there.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> True......if hospitalizations rise quickly everything will change again.
> 
> If not.....happy days are here again.


This is the ultimate test. Are too many people ending up in hospital?

I suggest watching AB & BC's numbers in the coming days. These were the first provinces to relax the restrictions, and covid cases are now rising in both. Too early to say whether hospitalizations are rising.

Hopefully the numbers will stay low.


----------



## MrMatt

james4beach said:


> This is the ultimate test. Are too many people ending up in hospital?


Not in Ontario.



> I suggest watching AB & BC's numbers in the coming days. These were the first provinces to relax the restrictions, and covid cases are now rising in both. Too early to say whether hospitalizations are rising.
> 
> Hopefully the numbers will stay low.


We'll see, but that's the real question.

Like I said, I don't care if people get sick. I care if they die, or clog up the hospital system.
Which honestly is how we treat the flu.

Unless lots of people are dying, or the hospital fills up, we don't care. that's also why we have something like a 40% flu shot uptake most years.


----------



## sags

There are reports of kids suffering from some kind of long term affects of the virus.

All the doctors say the Delta is a different beast than previous strains and that is causing all the concern, especially among the un-vaccinated including children.

People sent their kids off to summer camp in Muskoka and were called a couple hours later to pick them up due to a Covid outbreak. Now they report the outbreak has spread and the camp has closed down for the next few weeks to get it under control.

This virus gets one foot in the door and spreads like wildfire. It is virtually unstoppable once it gets an opening.

Many experts are ringing alarm bells saying we have to get the virus under control or it will mutate.

Problem is that it isn't just us in Canada.......or even the US. Much of the world isn't vaccinated and they could develop a mutation that ends up here.......just like the others have.

What do we do then ? Close the borders tight ? I suspect we will because of the heat that Trudeau is getting about not shutting the border sooner. Any hint of a variant and the doors to Canada will close.

Canadians who travel might want to have a quick return to Canada plan in case something pops up somewhere.


----------



## sags

In Ontario there are always too many people in the hospital. That is why the wait times are so long even in normal times.

We need to build more hospitals and train more doctors and nurses, but that cost money that government doesn't want to spend.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I don't know about the rest of you, but I saw the dentist today and the visit still freaked me out. I spent a total of 3 hours in there, mostly without a mask.
> 
> Really hoping that I didn't catch covid in there.


 ... it's unlikely that you''ll catch C19 there given dental offices have very stringent protocols, which they would have figured out by now - mid 2021. They screen all patients - a questionnaire the day before going in, temperature taking upon entrance and no more than 3 patients in the waiting area with mask-on/distance apart. All treating rooms are closed off for each patient. Dentists and staff are in full PPEs and the only time you're mask-less is when getting work done. My dentist reminds me to put it on as soon as I'm off the chair. And each time he questions about my vaccination status as I questions his + his staff (expected to be way before the patient). This way, we can both feel comfortable on the patient's attendance. [And of course, your signing of the waiver.]


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> In Ontario there are always too many people in the hospital. That is why the wait times are so long even in normal times.
> 
> We need to build more hospitals and train more doctors and nurses, but that cost money that government doesn't want to spend.


 ... setting aside the money issue, I would not be surprised there'll be less nurses and doctors in the profession after the pandemic is over or how about just after the 4th wave.


----------



## sags

james4beach said:


> I don't know about the rest of you, but I saw the dentist today and the visit still freaked me out. I spent a total of 3 hours in there, mostly without a mask.
> 
> Really hoping that I didn't catch covid in there.


There are so many stupid people around that it makes it difficult to keep yourself distant from them.

Yesterday I ventured to the Goodwill store for the first time in 2 years. As I was there a woman came by talking on her cellphone with her mask pulled down. She wandered right up beside me and so I moved away. She passed by me 4 times while in the store, talking on her phone the whole time with her mask pulled down. I kept moving away and finally left the store. 

I hope she didn't have covid because she would have happily spread it to everyone else in the store.


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> As opposed to a huge number of infections in an unvaccinated population?


More infection is more opportunities for mutation, but infection in vaccinated individuals risks mutations to escape the vaccines.


----------



## OptsyEagle

andrewf said:


> More infection is more opportunities for mutation, but infection in vaccinated individuals risks mutations to escape the vaccines.


I am not going to argue with that logic except to point out that it is all about a concern for a future event that has not happened and probably will not. I want to shed light onto the fact about the assumption that if we attempt to control infections we might prevent it.

In order to stop this virus we need either of 3 events to happen:

1) Everyone, everywhere in the world must protect themselves, with high quality masks, and stay away from everyone indoors, and at least 6 feet apart outdoors, ...for at least 6 months, probably more.
or
2) 75% or more of the world need to be vaccinated.
or
3) 75% or more of the world need to be either vaccinated or previously infected.

Do I need to discuss number 1 or can you see the futility of that option for yourself. Hopefully we can all see that it is not going to happen.

I imagine, when you consider the world we live in that although the developed world may achieve more then 75% vaccination, that will not be enough if the undeveloped world does not also achieve it. Without the rest of the world to vaccinate in equal numbers, Canada would require a number much higher then 90%. Probably 95% to put our problems at bay, but again, not completely away if the world still maintains this virus.

You should be able to see that number 3 is about the only way this pandemic is going to play out. If a mutation comes about, due to the high number of infections that ensue, to either vaccinated or unvaccinated, that actually causes us a new problem, it is a problem that could not have been prevented. Our best hope would have been to delay it, but I think we have all had enough of delaying tactics by now and consequently with that in mind, I doubt we can even delay it.


----------



## Beaver101

sags said:


> *There are so many stupid people around that it makes it difficult to keep yourself distant from them.*
> 
> Yesterday I ventured to the Goodwill store for the first time in 2 years. As I was there a woman came by talking on her cellphone with her mask pulled down. She wandered right up beside me and so I moved away. She passed by me 4 times while in the store, talking on her phone the whole time with her mask pulled down. I kept moving away and finally left the store.
> 
> I hope she didn't have covid because she would have happily spread it to everyone else in the store.


 ... +1000%. And I would replace "stupid" with "selfish and conceited".


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> More infection is more opportunities for mutation, but infection in vaccinated individuals risks mutations to escape the vaccines.


Exactly, which is why unvaccinated are far more likely to create new mutations, both by far greater numbers of infected and likelyhood of getting infected. Infections in unvaccinated individuals risks mutations to escape the vaccines as well but with much greater chances of doing so.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> .. it's unlikely that you''ll catch C19 there given dental offices have very stringent protocols, which they would have figured out by now - mid 2021. They screen all patients


I'm more worried those hygienists with children. Most of the technicians and staff in general are quite young (high COVID risk), plus who knows what they've been doing on the long weekend. Gathering with friends, etc.


----------



## Beaver101

james4beach said:


> I'm more worried those hygienists with children. Most of the technicians and staff in general are quite young (high COVID risk), plus who knows what they've been doing on the long weekend. Gathering with friends, etc.


 ... your concerns are not invalid. But then I would think the dentist(s) would think twice about retaining these "freely staff" (aka irresponsiblel lack of common sense). Should there be an outbreak or discovery in a dental office, both staff and the dentist/owner can be sure to go on EI for a long time.


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> Exactly, which is why unvaccinated are far more likely to create new mutations, both by far greater numbers of infected and likelyhood of getting infected. Infections in unvaccinated individuals risks mutations to escape the vaccines as well but with much greater chances of doing so.


We should be vaccinating AND trying to reduce levels of infection among vaccinated and unvaccinated. Accepting high levels of infection among the vaccinated is not smart public health strategy.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> We should be vaccinating AND trying to reduce levels of infection among vaccinated and unvaccinated. Accepting high levels of infection among the vaccinated is not smart public health strategy.


Not sure what you're trying to promote, the line has to be drawn somewhere. IMO, if the hospitals are not getting overloaded with covid cases all is good again. Also, if there are high levels of infection in the vaccinated that would mean the vaccines are working right?


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> I don't know about the rest of you, but I saw the dentist today and the visit still freaked me out. I spent a total of 3 hours in there, mostly without a mask.
> 
> Really hoping that I didn't catch covid in there.


I went to the dentist last fall, and they had high powered HEPA filters running in each cubicle. I said: I am glad you believe it is an airborne virus. Thank you. That was August 2020.


----------



## sags

Was out driving around tonight having a look see.......and yup, the outdoor patios are packed.

No masks required because they are eating, drinking and chatting on a beautiful summer evening.

The future is easy to predict and I ain't no prophet.

You already know what it is anyways.


----------



## james4beach

kcowan said:


> I went to the dentist last fall, and they had high powered HEPA filters running in each cubicle. I said: I am glad you believe it is an airborne virus. Thank you. That was August 2020.


Sounds like a smart dentist. I didn't see any HEPA filters where I went, and the air spaces between patient areas was open.

What makes this virus a tricky f***er is that it can travel around on people while they don't show symptoms. If only infected people looked sick, we'd have a much easier time dealing with this.


----------



## sags

They have breathalyzer tests for alcohol so it probably is possible for one for COVID.

They say that dogs can detect covid.


----------



## damian13ster

sags said:


> Was out driving around tonight having a look see.......and yup, the outdoor patios are packed.
> 
> No masks required because they are eating, drinking and chatting on a beautiful summer evening.
> 
> The future is easy to predict and I ain't no prophet.
> 
> You already know what it is anyways.


I thought businesses will be empty until they require vaccinations to enter?

Yep, patios are definitely full most nights. It is awesome! City finally coming back to life, you can see smiles all around, people are happier and slowly the anxiety in society is disappearing.
Still long ways to go but a step in right direction.
Imho all provinces should follow Alberta's lead and simply stop testing if not necessary. Maybe it would stop the 24h coverage and stop increasing mental health problems in Canadians


----------



## james4beach

I just flew between provinces. The airports are jam-packed, overflowing with people. Large families with screaming kids, no space between anyone. The plane was completely full. On arrival, everyone got up and start chatting and socializing with each other, kind of like a 200 person night club packed into a small unventilated space. I heard several people coughing, so imagine this as a room full of 200 chatty people, including some coughing.

IMO the flying experience is very high risk when the planes are this full.

Most people are wearing the disposable surgical-style masks and cloth masks. This is better than nothing, but can't offer much protection on a long flight where everyone is within a couple metres of each other.

If you are thinking of flying, I *strongly* recommend finding a comfortable N95 mask to wear such as a CAN95 or KN95. I wore a CAN95 for the flight and it was comfortable.

I think it's crazy to get onto a plane with only a flimsy cloth mask or even a surgical mask. Go for N95 as a bare minimum.

If you really insist on using a surgical mask, at least get a real medical mask which means ASTM Level 3. They are currently easy to find.


----------



## Money172375

james4beach said:


> I just flew between provinces. The airports are jam-packed, overflowing with people. Large families with screaming kids, no space between anyone. The plane was completely full. On arrival, everyone got up and start chatting and socializing with each other, kind of like a 200 person night club packed into a small unventilated space. I heard several people coughing, so imagine this as a room full of 200 chatty people, including some coughing.
> 
> IMO the flying experience is very high risk when the planes are this full.
> 
> Most people are wearing the disposable surgical-style masks and cloth masks. This is better than nothing, but can't offer much protection on a long flight where everyone is within a couple metres of each other.
> 
> If you are thinking of flying, I *strongly* recommend finding a comfortable N95 mask to wear such as a CAN95 or KN95. I wore a CAN95 for the flight and it was comfortable.
> 
> I think it's crazy to get onto a plane with only a flimsy cloth mask or even a surgical mask. Go for N95 as a bare minimum.
> 
> If you really insist on using a surgical mask, at least get a real medical mask which means ASTM Level 3. They are currently easy to find.


Some are arguing to open the US border so they can drive down and not expose themselves to airline travel. Seems a safer method.


----------



## gibor365

Money172375 said:


> Some are arguing to open the US border so they can drive down and not expose themselves to airline travel. Seems a safer method.


A very good point! Driving through border ia 1000 times safer than flying


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> I just flew between provinces. The airports are jam-packed, overflowing with people. Large families with screaming kids, no space between anyone. The plane was completely full. On arrival, everyone got up and start chatting and socializing with each other, kind of like a 200 person night club packed into a small unventilated space. I heard several people coughing, so imagine this as a room full of 200 chatty people, including some coughing.
> 
> IMO the flying experience is very high risk when the planes are this full.
> 
> Most people are wearing the disposable surgical-style masks and cloth masks. This is better than nothing, but can't offer much protection on a long flight where everyone is within a couple metres of each other.
> 
> If you are thinking of flying, I *strongly* recommend finding a comfortable N95 mask to wear such as a CAN95 or KN95. I wore a CAN95 for the flight and it was comfortable.
> 
> I think it's crazy to get onto a plane with only a flimsy cloth mask or even a surgical mask. Go for N95 as a bare minimum.
> 
> If you really insist on using a surgical mask, at least get a real medical mask which means ASTM Level 3. They are currently easy to find.


James, how about eating/drinking on the plane?! I've read that some people on purpose eating/dring for a very long time in order to be w/o mask


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> James, how about eating/drinking on the plane?! I've read that some people on purpose eating/dring for a very long time in order to be w/o mask


You definitely have to take off the mask to eat and drink.

But you should also be considerate for your fellow passengers and not try to get away with going maskless. What if you are carrying the virus, and the person next to you is a cancer patient?


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> You definitely have to take off the mask to eat and drink.
> 
> But you should also be considerate for your fellow passengers and not try to get away with going maskless. What if you are carrying the virus, and the person next to you is a cancer patient?


My question was different...I know what shoud be  .
I've read articles that some people start eating just after take off (some pringles, nuts...sipping coctails etc) until landing , in order not wear mask.... did you see something like this on the plane?


----------



## sags

I forget the exact number but something like 160 flights arrived in Canada in July with a passenger who had covid.

How do they get on the plane if they are tested before ? Something isn't adding up.

A Carnival cruise ship is in Belize with an outbreak. So much for testing before.

We are going to start hearing pleas from Canadian travelers of "come save my jackass" again.


----------



## damian13ster

All of the people infected on the cruise ship were fully vaccinated.


----------



## sags

Or they showed fake documentation.


----------



## sags

Two Americans were caught with fake vaccination documents. It is likely many are not caught.

All they get is a fine......return to the US and never pay it.









Canada fines travellers for fake vaccination and testing papers


The travellers arriving from the US were caught and fined C$19,720 ($16,000, £11,500).



www.bbc.com


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> All of the people infected on the cruise ship were fully vaccinated.


*99.98% of the ship's crew and 96.5% of its passengers were vaccinated, says board*
_The positive cases were among 26 crew members and one passenger on the Carnival Vista, which is carrying over 1,400 crew and nearly 3,000 passengers, the board said in a statement. The ship arrived Wednesday in Belize City. - _curious why so many crew members and just 1 passenger_ ?! 

All 27 people were vaccinated, *had mild or no symptoms*, and were in isolation, according to the statement - _so it's even milder tham mild flu  ... why all the hysteria?!


----------



## sags

Yet.......would be operative word. Many covid patients say they felt fine for days and then got extremely sick.

We will see. It will be a good test. I remember the first wave of covid the ships said they "had it under control"...........and then they didn't.

Personally, I hope it shows the vaccinations are working better than some indications in the US are showing.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> _All 27 people were vaccinated, *had mild or no symptoms*, and were in isolation, according to the statement - _so it's even milder tham mild flu  ... why all the hysteria?!


Yeah, sounds like they were vaccinated, and nothing happened to them.

Sounds to me like the vaccines worked and there was no catastrophe.


----------



## damian13ster

james4beach said:


> Yeah, sounds like they were vaccinated, and nothing happened to them.
> 
> Sounds to me like the vaccines worked and there was no catastrophe.


It also looks like it doesnt stop against infcetion or spread
It stops hospitalizations and deaths.
Benefit to individual, not to society


----------



## james4beach

damian13ster said:


> It also looks like it doesnt stop against infcetion or spread
> It stops hospitalizations and deaths.
> Benefit to individual, not to society


Stopping hospitalizations are a huge benefit to society. On top of that, there is less transmission among vaccinated people.

The whole reason we shut down is that hospitals got overloaded. If we had a high enough vaccination rate to prevent the hospitals from getting overwhelmed, then we'd really have no problems. Yes people will still get sick with covid but if they can recover at home, then everything can remain open and we can go on with our lives.

Vaccinations bring freedom.


----------



## gibor365

damian13ster said:


> It also looks like it doesnt stop against infcetion or spread
> It stops hospitalizations and deaths.
> Benefit to individual, not to society


Don't you think that benefit to every individual brings benefit to society?!


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Don't you think that benefit to every individual brings benefit to society?!


gibor I wonder if the pandemic has disrupted the balance of the universe, because I increasingly see that we are agreeing on things!


----------



## AltaRed

That is pretty much how I see it. 

Responding to an earlier post up thread, elective procedures are now being deferred at Kelowna General due to influx of unvaccinated individuals with covid filling up beds. Mostly 20-40 somethings and now teens and the odd child as well. New breakouts in LTC homes worse than the initial surges but many fewer hospitalizations and often staff. BC has just introduced mandatory vaccinations for all LTC homes, private or otherwise. Not sure that applies to all congregate housing though.

The bottom line here in the Interior is the Delta variant has surprised almost everyone with its tenacity and ability to infect and cause serious illnesses. It is a good (I suppose) experiment as to why. It also demonstrates the urgency to get more vaccinations AND as to the subject of this thread, the need for masks. The dropping of the mask mandate in early July was a recipe for disaster..... It slowed down vaccinations, i.e. why do I now need to be vaccinated? 

What we need now is for more businesses to mandate vaccinations and/or masking for entering their premises, including this winter's hockey game schedule. It will convert a lot of fence sitters. Plus we need more people to demand vaccinations of others to be in their social circle. It is fully understood in our household that we will not have anyone without vaccinations in our house, nor will we be in physical contact with anyone who is not vaccinated. If that causes relationship breaks, that is fine with us. They are not worth it in the first place.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> gibor I wonder if the pandemic has disrupted the balance of the universe, because I increasingly see that we are agreeing on things!


We agree on some things (even with sags) and disagree on other things ... this is normal


----------



## damian13ster

gibor365 said:


> Don't you think that benefit to every individual brings benefit to society?!


The question is about violating individual human rights.
Argument some segregationists make is that you getting vaccinated protects others so your human rights can be abused. 
That argument is no longer valid since you being vaccinated doesn't protect others. Infection and spread isn't stopped.


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> My question was different...I know what shoud be  .
> I've read articles that some people start eating just after take off (some pringles, nuts...sipping coctails etc) until landing , in order not wear mask.... did you see something like this on the plane?


 ... are you serious with that question? What do you expect him to do if the passengers are deliberately doing that? Police them?


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I've read articles that some people start eating just after take off (some pringles, nuts...sipping coctails etc) until landing , in order not wear mask.... did you see something like this on the plane?


Sorry, I forgot to answer this question.

No I did not see anything like this on the plane. Some people removed their masks a bit to eat, but it seemed reasonable. Looking around, you pretty much saw everyone wearing masks all the time.

I was happy to see that passengers were so well behaved. Nobody being rude either, just a friendly bunch of people in good spirits.

My only complaint was that it was really crowded, overall. Like I said before I would not fly with less than a N95 mask (KN95 or CAN95).


----------



## james4beach




----------



## Beaver101

^ LMAO ... hope the author of that video got Disney's permissions to use their characters.


----------



## cainvest

Going into stores now it looks like the majority of shoppers are still wearing masks though it is not required, just recommended. Interesting difference between last year and now, last year almost nobody were wearing masks.


----------



## andrewf

Still mandatory in Ontario. I think by August last year, mask compliance was essentially 100% here.


----------



## kcowan

james4beach said:


> I just flew between provinces. The airports are jam-packed, overflowing with people. Large families with screaming kids, no space between anyone. The plane was completely full. On arrival, everyone got up and start chatting and socializing with each other, kind of like a 200 person night club packed into a small unventilated space. I heard several people coughing, so imagine this as a room full of 200 chatty people, including some coughing.
> 
> IMO the flying experience is very high risk when the planes are this full.
> 
> Most people are wearing the disposable surgical-style masks and cloth masks. This is better than nothing, but can't offer much protection on a long flight where everyone is within a couple metres of each other.
> 
> If you are thinking of flying, I *strongly* recommend finding a comfortable N95 mask to wear such as a CAN95 or KN95. I wore a CAN95 for the flight and it was comfortable.
> 
> I think it's crazy to get onto a plane with only a flimsy cloth mask or even a surgical mask. Go for N95 as a bare minimum.
> 
> If you really insist on using a surgical mask, at least get a real medical mask which means ASTM Level 3. They are currently easy to find.


That was our experience flying from PV to Seattle on Alaska at the end of June. We had our masks on and emerged unscathed. We were tested Negative for Covid-19 4 times after that over the next 12 days.


----------



## Eder

I'm glad many people are wearing masks even though they are not required...that is how it should be. I choose not to wear one...happy I have a choice and happy people aren't whining that everyone should wear one.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Still mandatory in Ontario. I think by August last year, mask compliance was essentially 100% here.


Ontario was also by far last jurisdiction in North America to allow indoor dining! Retarded province of retarded country LOL


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> Ontario was also by far last jurisdiction in North America to allow indoor dining! Retarded province of retarded country LOL


 .. populated by same retarded people/humanoids ... LOL.


----------



## newfoundlander61

I am currently visiting Newfoundland until this Tues and even with masks not being required indoors (other than in the airport and a few other locations) most of the population living here continue to wear masks indoors.


----------



## gibor365

newfoundlander61 said:


> I am currently visiting Newfoundland until this Tues and even with masks not being required indoors (other than in the airport and a few other locations) most of the population living here continue to wear masks indoors.


It's all psycological ! Not only masks , but even vaccine don't help! The important thing that masks are optional in many provinces , but ON is "the province of pussies" ....and with those mandatory masks, still huge restrictions and huge vaccination numbers - cases in Ontario are surging like crazy!
I bet we're going to big lockdowns / stay-at-home orders in a couple of months! Buut I hope that Ontarians will finally wake up and prevent this madness


----------



## sags

Well........there are masks and then there are masks.

Many experts say only the N95 masks offer enough protection. The paper masks, scarves, home made.........don't work.

My wife no longer wears an N95 everywhere, as she is saving them in case, but she does wear a surgical mask and face shield when shopping.

People look at her strangely and smirk sometimes, she says.....but she doesn't care. She worked in hospitals and saw patients gasping for air 24 hours a day.


----------



## Eder

It is being demonstrated that masks & lock downs have done very little other than prolong the inevitable. Its time for people that want to get on with their lives & those that don't to take personal precautions without demanding others do the same.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I bet we're going to big lockdowns / stay-at-home orders in a couple of months! Buut I hope that Ontarians will finally wake up and prevent this madness


Israel has rapidly escalating cases, travel restrictions, and mandatory masks indoors. I guess Israel is a "country of pussies", to use your terminology. Or maybe they are being smart?

Let's look at your favourite country, Russia. They are hitting new highs in daily deaths... more people are dying than ever before in the pandemic.

@gibor365 very much shows the Russian / eastern European mentality in his posts. But what you get with this line of thinking is the Russian situation, an uncontrolled pandemic, constantly rising deaths. Russians absolutely hate wearing masks and other public health measures. They think they are only for pussies.

Why wear masks? Why restrict indoor gatherings? Russians are too proud to do such weak, girly things!










This ^ is where gibor's style of thinking gets you. That chart is DEATHS, not cases.


----------



## Beaver101

^ According to gibor, only the braves like to live in Russia and the pussies hide in Canada. Wonder why?


----------



## Beaver101

newfoundlander61 said:


> I am currently visiting Newfoundland until this Tues and even with masks not being required indoors (other than in the airport and a few other locations) most of the population living here continue to wear masks indoors.


 ... glad to hear that folks out in the Eastern provinces are prudent and alot smarter than us west here. Hope the big welcome mat comes out next year or when the pandemic is close to over.


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> *It is being demonstrated that masks & lock downs have done very little other than prolong the inevitable*. Its time for people that want to get on with their lives & those that don't to take personal precautions without demanding others do the same.


You mean like the US had been doing until recently? (175k cases/day, 1000 dead/day) Even they are going back to masks. And even T is telling the deniers to get vaccinated.

You are right in saying that getting vaccinated or wearing a mask simply prolongs the inevitable. But, wouldn't you prefer to live longer? Or not be the cause of others, including relatives and friends, having shorter lives?


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ^ According to gibor, only the braves like to live in Russia and the pussies hide in Canada. Wonder why?


I actually make sure I now avoid people who seem to be Russian or eastern European. They often seem to have all this backwards thinking and macho mindset.

More generally actually, the dumb "macho" characters are those with the highest risk, and those are the people to stay away from.


----------



## andrewf

I know eastern Europeans that are quite reasonable... I don't like generalizing like this.


----------



## Beaver101

andrewf said:


> I know eastern Europeans that are quite reasonable... I don't like generalizing like this.


 ... I think J4B's "generalization" there is being polite to gibor.

IMO, gibor (as a Candian citizen also) is giving his fellow countrymen a bad rap with his ridiculous freedom-of-speech posts.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> I actually make sure I now avoid people who seem to be Russian or eastern European. They often seem to have all this backwards thinking and macho mindset.
> 
> More generally actually, the dumb "macho" characters are those with the highest risk, and those are the people to stay away from.


You are racist!

Btw, EURO 2021 games that were held in UK attended 70-80K of fans and practically no one was wearing masks... UK is not part of Russia/Eastern Europe 🤣


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Israel has rapidly escalating cases, travel restrictions, and mandatory masks indoors. I guess Israel is a "country of pussies", to use your terminology. Or maybe they are being smart?
> 
> Let's look at your favourite country, Russia. They are hitting new highs in daily deaths... more people are dying than ever before in the pandemic.
> 
> @gibor365 very much shows the Russian / eastern European mentality in his posts. But what you get with this line of thinking is the Russian situation, an uncontrolled pandemic, constantly rising deaths. Russians absolutely hate wearing masks and other public health measures. They think they are only for pussies.
> 
> Why wear masks? Why restrict indoor gatherings? Russians are too proud to do such weak, girly things!
> 
> View attachment 22047
> 
> 
> This ^ is where gibor's style of thinking gets you. That chart is DEATHS, not cases.


And how all those restrictions are helping Israel?! They practically reached same number of daily cases that peaked during 3rd wave ( before vaccination campaign!!!!), as per trend, number of deaths also will be close to wave 3 peak. Yesterday there were55 deaths, the absolute maximum 7 days average deaths during 3rd wave was 62.

Btw, cases in Russia dropped 15% in last 3 weeks

My son is in 5 star resort in Punta Cana. Plane from Pearson was 100% full (so not all Canadians like James) 😁 . 50% of resort are Russian tourists who obviously would be contacting...

Thus, James, you need to avoid humans at all LOL


----------



## gibor365

Looks like majority of provinces already lifted mandatory masks requirement .. some lifted all or almost all restrictions . As expected, Ontario will be the last one if at all


----------



## afulldeck

Just post a few hours ago in UK 





__





Our grave concerns about the handling of the COVID pandemic by Governments of the Nations of the UK – Covid19 Assembly







www.covid19assembly.org


----------



## Beaver101

^ That's a mix bag of general practitioners and unrelated specialties of doctors and nurses. Only one remotely close with expertise to virology is a genetic epidemiologist.


----------



## Eder

agent99 said:


> You are right in saying that getting vaccinated or wearing a mask simply prolongs the inevitable. But, wouldn't you prefer to live longer? Or not be the cause of others, including relatives and friends, having shorter lives?


Many people will never get vaxed so why cater to them. Let them and whoever else feels the need to stay home & wear their masks. The rest of us should get on with life and grab a booster if required. As others have posted...we will all get Covid sooner or later...more likely more than once.


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ^ That's a mix bag of general practitioners and unrelated specialties of doctors and nurses. Only one remotely close with expertise to virology is a genetic epidemiologist.


Anyone can sign the petition and claim to be anything they want.

I think I will join as Dr. Mallard Wood Drake W.E.B..........just to keep everything "ducky", as a specialist in webbed toes.


----------



## sags

So a couple years ago I went in to get a heart ablation to fix atrial fibrillation that I had taken strong medication for over 30 years.

The night before the operation the doctor comes to see me and tells me about the operation and as he was leaving I says.......hey doc, and he turns halfway.

I say........so, you have done this before right ? He laughs and says........yea a few hundred times at least.

The next morning I am on the operating table, all bundled up nicely by the nurses.....even got a warming pillow under my back, and been given a shot of "happy juice".

I am beaming and chatty while the one guy is trying without success to start an IV. So the surgeon says to him.......I thought you said you practiced on an orange this morning.

That broke me up and the guy gets the line started and says.......oh you are a really funny guy to the surgeon. Then he pats me on the head and says......night night.

Oh the fun we had..........good times by all.


----------



## Beaver101

^ Laughter works better than valium for a patient to be operated on. How many days do you have to be in the hospital for that procedure, I'm curious. First time I heard something "physically" can be done for AF.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> You are racist!


Eastern Europeans are not a race



andrewf said:


> I know eastern Europeans that are quite reasonable... I don't like generalizing like this.


Fair enough


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> Thus, James, you need to avoid humans at all LOL


I try to avoid the dumb and reckless ones


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Eastern Europeans are not a race
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough


Muslims or Chinese are also not a race! So, in your view, it's fine to say that "I avoid Muslims or/and Chinese"?!


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> I try to avoid the dumb and reckless ones


And how do you know that they are from Eastern Europe and "dumb and reckless"?! LOL
You are so scared that you became paranoid


----------



## sags

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Laughter works better than valium for a patient to be operated on. How many days do you have to be in the hospital for that procedure, I'm curious. First time I heard something "physically" can be done for AF.


I think I went in the night before because I had early surgery, and then had the surgery and stayed in hospital for that day/night. I was released the next day. You have to stay in bed immobile for like 8 hours so the small hole in the leg artery doesn't pop open and bleed. I got terrible back spasms and the nurse tried to sit me up and it broke open..So she just applied pressure, put on another bandage and I had to lay back down for another 8 hours.

At least I had my cellphone and could play the slots all night to pass the time. I even won about $300.

Science is amazing. After all those years, they go into the heart through a leg artery and "map" the heart to see where the signals are bouncing around. Then they zap it with lasers to scar the muscle so it doesn't repeat all those false heart beats. It is like 99% effective and if once doesn't work they do it again for 100% effectiveness.

The happy juice is valium through the IV I think. It is the best part of being in the hospital.........LOL.

No more irregular heart beats. No more medications. Funny.........after the age of 65 I got free eye surgery due to cataracts and have perfect vision after wearing glasses all my life, and I got the atrial fib fixed. It sure would have been nice 40 years ago.......but it didn't exist back then.

I don't doubt the science.........it is remarkable the way it has advanced.


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> Many people will never get vaxed so why cater to them. Let them and whoever else feels the need to stay home & wear their masks. The rest of us should get on with life and grab a booster if required. As others have posted...we will all get Covid sooner or later...more likely more than once.


It's guys like you and Gibor that are the problem. You guys should be the ones who have to stay home where you are free to stay maskless. You are putting the rest of us at risk. Shame on you.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> And how do you know that they are from Eastern Europe and "dumb and reckless"?! LOL
> You are so scared that you became paranoid


They always wear retro Adidas track suits ?


----------



## Eder

agent99 said:


> It's guys like you and Gibor that are the problem. You guys should be the ones who have to stay home where you are free to stay maskless. You are putting the rest of us at risk. Shame on you.


Actually I follow our health care guide lines...surprised you don't agree with Bonnie Henry or others. Maybe you have better insight to our Covid situation than her?


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> Actually I follow our health care guide lines...surprised you don't agree with Bonnie Henry or others. Maybe you have better insight to our Covid situation than her?


I don't live in BC so don't know what the current guidelines are. But it seems they are about to change again. Maybe read this if you haven't yet: Like everywhere else, cases and deaths are spiking again.









COVID-19 update: B.C. reports 16 deaths and 1,711 cases over the weekend


Sixteen deaths due to COVID-19 were reported over the weekend, B.C. health officials announced Monday after unveiling a new vaccine passport system.




bc.ctvnews.ca













Targeted COVID-19 restrictions expanded to all of B.C.'s Interior


B.C. is expanding restrictions initially put in place to slow the growth of COVID-19 cases in the Kelowna area to the entire Interior Health region.




bc.ctvnews.ca













Vaccine certification announced in B.C.


B.C. Premier John Horgan and Chief medical officer Bonnie Henry announced vaccine certification is coming to slow the spread of COVID-19.




bc.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Eder

Yet you still need to insult people that follow Covid guide lines...stay home let the rest of us enjoy ourselves.

(of course you read your articles and saw that only 2 deaths over the last 3 days from Covid yet 300 people died from other causes in BC right?)


----------



## agent99

Eder said:


> Yet you still need to insult people that follow Covid guide lines...stay home let the rest of us enjoy ourselves.
> 
> (of course you read your articles and saw that only 2 deaths over the last 3 days from Covid yet 300 people died from other causes in BC right?)


You got that backwards. You stay home and let the rest of BC enjoy themselves while keeping safe.

BTW, ctv article said 16 died over weekend from covid , not 2.


----------



## Eder

Ok I know you're like 80 so here you go...

*The new deaths include fourteen in Interior Health, which are previously uncounted deaths dating back to August 1. Deaths also occurred in Fraser Health and Island Health.*

Oh...many people are still publicly wearing masks although not required, many more are enjoying not needing to deal with them. Perhaps mandates will change and then as always I am the first to comply. But you already knew that, you just think everyone should wear masks everywhere because perhaps you fear Covid & death...not unreasonable but the science today doesn't support your view.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> Actually I follow our health care guide lines...surprised you don't agree with Bonnie Henry or others.


Just make sure you keep up with BC guidelines, because they are changing rapidly.

*>> Important notice! Includes the Okanagan / Kelowna / Nelson and east to the Alberta border <<*

Indoor masks are now mandatory in BC's interior region. Indoor personal gatherings are limited to one other household, with a 5 guest maximum. Visitors from Alberta are therefore required to wear masks indoors (in the Interior Health region) and limit their gatherings.

As of this morning, vacation rentals have that 5 guest maximum. Outdoor personal gatherings have a 50 guest maximum.

Here's a PDF of the updated rules for the BC interior.


----------



## gibor365

agent99 said:


> It's guys like you and Gibor that are the problem. You guys should be the ones who have to stay home where you are free to stay maskless. You are putting the rest of us at risk. Shame on you.


If you are so worried, stay at home, wear double masks and lock the door. We're worried much less


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> *Actually I follow our health care guide lines.*..surprised you don't agree with Bonnie Henry or others. Maybe you have better insight to our Covid situation than her?


Same here .... this is why I wear mask when go inside the store ... except some places like saunas where nobody wearing masks. But the moment masks becomes optional, I will shred it


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Ok I know you're like 80 so here you go...
> 
> *The new deaths include fourteen in Interior Health, which are previously uncounted deaths dating back to August 1. Deaths also occurred in Fraser Health and Island Health.*
> 
> Oh...*many people are still publicly wearing masks although not required,* many more are enjoying not needing to deal with them. Perhaps mandates will change and then as always I am the first to comply. But you already knew that, you just think everyone should wear masks everywhere because perhaps you fear Covid & death...*not unreasonable but the science today doesn't support your view.*


 ... if the "science" doesn't support agent99's (not limited to him but everyone else except for the closet anti-maskers) of wearing masks, then why would you wear it (other than the excuse of having to "comply" with the law that was derived from science.)


----------



## Beaver101

gibor365 said:


> If you are so worried, stay at home, wear double masks and lock the door. We're worried much less


 ... talk about who is the real authoritarian, how revealing.


----------



## agent99

From CBC this morning. Summarized at end.


​Tuesday, August 24, 2021 – by John McHutchion​




Here’s what you need to know to get the day started:​





*3 key factors in how Canada will fare during the 4th wave of COVID-19*​
​
It's tough — even impossible — to predict exactly how Canada will fare in the fourth wave of the COVID-19 pandemic. And looking for clues from other countries only gets you so far.

So what will determine Canada's experience in the months ahead? Multiple experts told CBC News that there are a few key factors — vaccination rates, vaccine strategies, and public health measures — in how the pandemic will play out as the delta variant continues spreading.

While millions of people across the country remain unprotected, virologist Alyson Kelvin said Canada's relatively high rate of immunization bodes well.

"We have fairly good coverage," said Kelvin, who works with the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization at the University of Saskatchewan in Saskatoon. "And the stats have come out that it seems we have better coverage compared to other countries — that's going to be our biggest source of protection, that we were able to vaccinate so many people and, again, stop that chain of transmission of the virus."

While high vaccination rates haven't entirely blunted COVID-19 infections in other areas of the world, they have noticeably reduced cases of serious illness compared with earlier surges of the coronavirus.

Also, Canada's vaccination strategy was quite unorthodox in several ways, giving Canadians the ability to mix between different forms of vaccine technologies and space out doses.

The unique road Canada took — allowing people to get second doses well beyond manufacturing guidelines, to a maximum of four months — is now likely a better bet than sticking to the speedy timelines used in clinical trials, said Matthew Miller, an associate professor of infectious diseases and immunology at McMaster University in Hamilton.

Finally, to buy time while more Canadians get vaccinated, multiple experts point to the need for certain public health measures to keep case growth at bay — not necessarily a full lockdown but some level of restrictions. That means maintaining the basic day-to-day precautions Canadians now know well: mask-wearing, physical distancing, and avoiding large gatherings and crowded settings.

*"We really need to think about our current situation and how having layers of protective measures really keeps everybody safe," Kelvin said.*​


----------



## Beaver101

^ Totally agree with that article/strategy except for the comment "_and, again, stop that chain of transmission of the virus." _where I don't see it happening anytime soon. Not with the virus being continuously shared and new variants emerging.


----------



## agent99

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Totally agree with that article/strategy except for the comment "_and, again, stop that chain of transmission of the virus." _where I don't see it happening anytime soon. Not with the virus being continuously shared and new variants emerging.


I agree. Vaccination may protect the person receiving it from infection, but not prevent them from spreading it to others. One reason why everyone still needs masks in indoor places or when in close contact, like in stadium seats. Transmission indoors through ventilation systems is another reason to wear masks. Schools with old systems or none at all are an issue. Those old radiators are probably safer than central heating systems.


----------



## Beaver101

^ We'll see ... the demographics of those who land in the ICUs. Poor kids.


----------



## damian13ster

Beaver101 said:


> ^ We'll see ... the demographics of those who land in the ICUs. Poor kids.




















Kids are doing fine.


----------



## Beaver101

^ If you say so as long as it is not your kid.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> Finally, to buy time while more Canadians get vaccinated, multiple experts point to the need for certain public health measures to keep case growth at bay — not necessarily a full lockdown but some level of restrictions. That means maintaining the basic day-to-day precautions Canadians now know well: mask-wearing, physical distancing, and avoiding large gatherings and crowded settings.
> 
> "We really need to think about our current situation and how having layers of protective measures really keeps everybody safe," Kelvin said.


Exactly. We don't have to shut everything down, but we need ongoing defenses. It's about layers.

Vaccination is one layer of defense. Masks are another. Avoiding huge, crowded gatherings. I'm about to go hang out at an indoor coffee shop for example. I'm fully vaccinated, but I will also be wearing a mask (unless I'm sipping coffee). And if the coffee shop is too crowded, I won't go in.

To me these are very minor inconveniences. Life is basically normal, and being a little bit extra careful about avoiding crowds really is NOT very hard. Just requires using the brain.


----------



## Plugging Along

damian13ster said:


> View attachment 22053
> 
> View attachment 22054
> 
> 
> Kids are doing fine.


I would agree that the kids are generally doing fine. What is the concern is kids, especially under the age of 12 do not live alone. Many will spread the virus to their parents and grandparents who are in the older age groups. When I help my elderly parents (one in a care facility), I really look at the risks. This is where people need to look at the bigger picture that we are all connected. 

How I look at masks, it's a small price to pay to protect others. If my kids come to visit their grandparents, just in case, I try to get a rapid test at my work done for me, I also make my kids and I wear masks, I don't ask my dad to because he has asthma, but he still wears a masks, we try to distance during our visits and stay outside. It's a little more difficult but I would feel awful if we gave covid to some one we knew.


----------



## agent99

Beaver101 said:


> ... if the "science" doesn't support agent99's (not limited to him but everyone else except for the closet anti-maskers) of wearing masks, then why would you wear it (other than the excuse of having to "comply" with the law that was derived from science.)


BONNIE HENRY REINTATES MASK MANDATE!

So definitely not just me  Even Bonnie Henry agrees! (She is a smart lady!)

So you BC anti-maskers that claim you are following Bonnie's directives, get those masks on now!


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> BONNIE HENRY REINTATES MASK MANDATE!
> 
> So definitely not just me  Even Bonnie Henry agrees! (She is a smart lady!)
> 
> So you BC ant-maskers that claim you are following Bonnie's directives, get those masks on now!


Smart move. It's a reason I think highly of Bonnie Henry. Her team really does monitor data and reacts quickly to them.

BC conditions are obviously dangerous right now, with the outbreak from the interior spreading to BC more broadly. This has already put a stop to the next phase of BC re-opening, and bringing back masks is the smart and obvious thing to do.

Reminder to tourists visiting BC: *indoor masks are now mandatory, everywhere in the province, including Vancouver.*


----------



## andrewf

She seemed to have gone a little anti-mask recently. I don't live in BC so I don't follow her closely.


----------



## Eder

Looks like we put on the mask...np...done it before. Why do people gloat about regression regarding Covid? Its like they enjoy restrictions? Anyway I'm back in Alberta soon enough.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Looks like we put on the mask...np...done it before. Why do people gloat about regression regarding Covid? Its like they enjoy restrictions? Anyway I'm back in Alberta soon enough.


The regression is not in control measures, the regression is in the control of the virus forcing those measures. As predicted, over-loosening now leads to worse restrictions later. I don't want a repeat of shuttering restaurants, retail, etc. and return to 5 person gathering limits, but being reckless now may land us there.


----------



## damian13ster

andrewf said:


> The regression is not in control measures, the regression is in the control of the virus forcing those measures. As predicted, over-loosening now leads to worse restrictions later. I don't want a repeat of shuttering restaurants, retail, etc. and return to 5 person gathering limits, but being reckless now may land us there.


Exactly. Measures don't affect the control of the virus. They are simply reaction to another wave.
Clearly visible in Texas. Drop the measures beginning of march --> no rise for 4 months, then a rise after 4 months that coincides with a rise in entire North America.


----------



## andrewf

Not sure why you think you're agreeing with me!

Clearly, measures work. Only an insane person would think everyone acting like we did in summer 2019 would have zero impact on rates of infection.


----------



## damian13ster

Because they don't. Multiple research papers and studies showing that. Multiple real-life experiences. Numbers didn't go up in Texas after they dropped all restrictions. They went up 5 months later. Numbers don't drop in Australia despite total lockdown for over a month now - they just beat a record.
Only effective restriction was closing borders quickly. Rest turned out to be useless virtue signaling. Look at the data.
Vaccines work in slowing hospitalizations. Only effective weapon we have. Rest are useless


----------



## MK7GTI

damian13ster said:


> Because they don't. Multiple research papers and studies showing that. Multiple real-life experiences. Numbers didn't go up in Texas after they dropped all restrictions. They went up 5 months later. Numbers don't drop in Australia despite total lockdown for over a month now - they just beat a record.
> Only effective restriction was closing borders quickly. Rest turned out to be useless virtue signaling. Look at the data.
> Vaccines work in slowing hospitalizations. Only effective weapon we have. Rest are useless


Your being far to logical my friend. Nobody listens to logic and reason anymore when it comes to Covid. People would rather just be scared.


----------



## sags

Waves of the virus were caused by different variants taking over dominance of the spread and when restrictions were removed.

It isn't a coincidence the worst places for the infection, hospitalizations and deaths are places that refused health protocols and restrictions.

Now they are begging for help. The US military and other government agencies have sent thousands of doctors and nurses to hospitals in those States.

If the hospitalizations continue to rise, they will run out of support people to send elsewhere.


----------



## james4beach

Saskatchewan will not be requiring indoor masks.

Then sadly, a lot of people in SK will die unnecessarily in the coming months. This is a failure of government to do its basic job (protect the public).


----------



## Beaver101

^ Versus the Maritimes (re newfoundlander61's post). Now the question (or fall show) becomes "who is smarter than a 5th grader?"


----------



## agent99

Beaver101 said:


> Now the question becomes "who is smarter than a 5th grader?"


That could be subject of a separate thread/poll here on CMF


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Saskatchewan will not be requiring indoor masks.
> 
> Then sadly, a lot of people in SK will die unnecessarily in the coming months. This is a failure of government to do its basic job (protect the public).


It's an interesting problem that's for sure but is it protection that's needed?

About two months ago MB gov was pushing vaccines and their 3-2-1 reopen plan. In this plan it was stated many times that once we hit 75% fully vaccinated (we did) that requirements would be changed to recommendations (masks included), which they did a few weeks ago. 

So now, with just case counts rising again (hospitalizations are not yet) they said they'll are putting back requirements in the next few days ... WTF? 

So is this over protection or do they have no faith in the vaccines to keep people out of hospitals?


----------



## OptsyEagle

It's an attempt to make the whiners feel a little more safe. Masks really are not that big of deal. The people vaccinated, but still trembling in their homes for some reason, seem to feel safer with them and the rest of us don't really care one way or the other, to be honest. So keep the mask mandates. It looks like some of these people are going to need a little more time before they come out of their covid shells. That time though is not without a cost. We are burning through this opportunity of warm weather very fast, here in Canada.

You see, my concern is that while they all cower behind their perceived protections, like masks in stores, the virus will be simply be delayed and then come at them during their Christmas dinners, a little later. If they had of obtained a small amount of delta exposure at the Canadian tire, that additional immune protection might have prevented them from being rushed to the hospital because of their oversized exposure they received during those large family dinners, indoors during the colder months.

If you have to expose yourself to this virus, and you do, I highly recommend outdoor or limited time exposure.


----------



## sags

People who you say are "cowering in their homes" are protecting essential workers so they can continue to work and keep all systems operating.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> So now, with just case counts rising again (hospitalizations are not yet) they said they'll are putting back requirements in the next few days ... WTF?
> 
> So is this over protection or do they have no faith in the vaccines to keep people out of hospitals?


And I criticized the earlier Public Health decisions as premature. They were pinning too much hope on the vaccines, and Public Health *shouldn't* have told the public that vaccination will get us back to normal (with everything relaxed).

Now that there are more case studies coming out from the world (notably, Israel) it's pretty clear that a level of 75% or 80% vaccination isn't enough to halt a wave of escalating cases. I think this new knowledge is what Public Health is reacting to. And heck, look at BC data as well.

BC data over the last few months shows that cases are up, hospitalizations are up, and ICU is up. There is a very high rate of new people entering ICU in British Columbia. Here's the chart and it's bad.

BC data for ICU










So adding in new restrictions and mask requirements is not excessive protection. Manitoba, and Ontario, are going to experience the same thing as BC and AB. On top of this we have the data from Israel.

Without additional protections like masks and limitations on gatherings, we're going to see hospitals and ICUs filling up. *It's already been happening in BC and AB.*


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> They were pinning too much hope on the vaccines, and Public Health *shouldn't* have told the public that vaccination will get us back to normal (with everything relaxed).
> 
> Now that there are more case studies coming out from the world (notably, Israel) it's pretty clear that a level of 75% or 80% vaccination isn't enough to halt a wave of escalating cases. I think this new knowledge is what Public Health is reacting to. And heck, look at BC data as well.


Israel is only at 60% so 40 people out of 100 are still not vaccinated. Canada is only a little better with 34 per 100 not fully vaccinated. MB is doing good with only 24 per 100. Though some of those figures may be based on full population vs those that can get the vaccine.



james4beach said:


> BC data over the last few months shows that cases are up, hospitalizations are up, and ICU is up.


Does BC show data on current hospital admissions vax vs non-vax?


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Does BC show data on current hospital admissions vax vs non-vax?


The officials have mentioned it in some of their press conferences, but I don't remember the numbers. Some fully vaccinated people certainly do end up in hospital, but not many. As I understand it, most people entering hospital are still un vaccinated, or only 1 shot.

My takeaway is that when fully vaccinated, I'm pretty safe and probably won't end up in the hospital. But it's still worth being cautious, and I still wear a mask, if nothing else -- to prevent infecting someone else.


----------



## OptsyEagle

sags said:


> People who you say are "cowering in their homes" are protecting essential workers so they can continue to work and keep all systems operating.


Sure. That is why they are doing it? lol


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> And I criticized the earlier Public Health decisions as premature. They were pinning too much hope on the vaccines, and Public Health *shouldn't* have told the public that vaccination will get us back to normal (with everything relaxed).
> 
> Now that there are more case studies coming out from the world (notably, Israel) it's pretty clear that a level of 75% or 80% vaccination isn't enough to halt a wave of escalating cases. I think this new knowledge is what Public Health is reacting to. And heck, look at BC data as well.
> 
> BC data over the last few months shows that cases are up, hospitalizations are up, and ICU is up. There is a very high rate of new people entering ICU in British Columbia. Here's the chart and it's bad.
> 
> BC data for ICU
> View attachment 22059
> 
> 
> 
> So adding in new restrictions and mask requirements is not excessive protection. Manitoba, and Ontario, are going to experience the same thing as BC and AB. On top of this we have the data from Israel.
> 
> Without additional protections like masks and limitations on gatherings, we're going to see hospitals and ICUs filling up. *It's already been happening in BC and AB.*



James. Those numbers are not going up because the provinces relaxed the restrictions. They are going up because the majority of Canadians are vaccinated and significantly safer then before and have resumed their socials lives again. That is the wave you will need to stop, if you want to slow the increases, and all I can say is good luck with that.

I suggest your time will be better spent figuring out how to live with it.


----------



## james4beach

OptsyEagle said:


> James. Those numbers are not going up because the provinces relaxed the restrictions.


Relaxing restrictions goes hand in hand with people going back to partying and socializing without caution.

People can live normal lives and socialize, we just need restrictions to make them do it cautiously. People are unable to do this on their own.



OptsyEagle said:


> I suggest your time will be better spent figuring out how to live with it.


I already told you how we live with it. We all have to be cautious, have to wear masks indoors around strangers, avoid large gatherings. That's what I've been doing for over a year now, and life is pretty normal. I still socialize, see friends, see family, and do everything I want.

I go to coffee shops, I grab food, I see my elderly family members, I travel on planes. But I'm not stupid enough to do these things without masks, and *I limit the amount* of high risk activities.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> The officials have mentioned it in some of their press conferences, but I don't remember the numbers. Some fully vaccinated people certainly do end up in hospital, but not many. As I understand it, most people entering hospital are still un vaccinated, or only 1 shot.
> 
> My takeaway is that when fully vaccinated, I'm pretty safe and probably won't end up in the hospital. But it's still worth being cautious, and I still wear a mask, if nothing else -- to prevent infecting someone else.


The overall CDN numbers agree, very little chance of going to the hospital if fully vaxed.


----------



## OptsyEagle

james4beach said:


> Relaxing restrictions goes hand in hand with people going back to partying and socializing without caution.
> 
> People can live normal lives and socialize, we just need restrictions to make them do it cautiously. People are unable to do this on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> I already told you how we live with it. We all have to be cautious, have to wear masks indoors around strangers, avoid large gatherings. That's what I've been doing for over a year now, and life is pretty normal. I still socialize, see friends, see family, and do everything I want.
> 
> I go to coffee shops, I grab food, I see my elderly family members, I travel on planes. But I'm not stupid enough to do these things without masks, and *I limit the amount* of high risk activities.


Your dreaming. Relaxing restrictions and people socializing do not go together. Being fearful of the virus and abiding by restrictions that protect you went together. There is a big difference. You are about to find out that the vast majority of the vaccinated are not afraid anymore, nor should they be. They won't be able to stop the socializing. If they try people will simply take it indoors where it is more dangerous.

The definition of protecting ones self needs to be adjusted in this new world of mostly vaccinated.


----------



## gibor365

cainvest said:


> Israel is only at 60% so 40 people out of 100 are still not vaccinated. Canada is only a little better with 34 per 100 not fully vaccinated. MB is doing good with only 24 per 100. Though some of those figures may be based on full population vs those that can get the vaccine.
> 
> 
> Does BC show data on current hospital admissions vax vs non-vax?


Yes, those % are from total population. Israel at 63%, Canada at $66.3%, US at 51.4%.
Soon Israeli numbers will go up as they started to vaccinate kids from 3 years old. 
On a daily basis Israel right now vaccinate more than x3 comparing to Canada.


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## Money172375

Ontario’s recent data showing vax/no vax and cases, hospitalization, ICUs.


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## gibor365

I like numbers for “vaccination status unknown “! Is it for people who don’t remember if they got vaccines?! Kinda dementia people?! Lol


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## Spudd

gibor365 said:


> I like numbers for “vaccination status unknown “! Is it for people who don’t remember if they got vaccines?! Kinda dementia people?! Lol


Possibly cases that were entered in the system before they started checking vaccination status? I don't know, just speculating.


----------



## gibor365

Spudd said:


> Possibly cases that were entered in the system before they started checking vaccination status? I don't know, just speculating.


No, it can't be , because they give those numbers on daily basis . Today 60 people arrived to hospital with “vaccination status unknown “! I don't believe that person coming to ER and tells that he doesn't want to tell if he's vaccinated  . in any case , every hospital can check status by person's healt card


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## james4beach

In the last few days, both BC and Manitoba announced that masks will be mandatory indoors.

Good to see the provinces smartening up.

I had a nice afternoon at a coffee shop with a friend. Had some snacks, kept the masks on part of the time. A lightweight mask does not really impede social connections or being able to go out and have fun. Tomorrow we're having another gathering of old friends (3 of us), probably masked indoors. If weather cooperates, we will be outdoors.


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## Eder

I guess vaccines don't work if us fully vaccinated people all of a sudden again need to wear one. Such a tragic comedy...no one knows what they are doing apparently.


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## james4beach

Eder said:


> I guess vaccines don't work if us fully vaccinated people all of a sudden again need to wear one. Such a tragic comedy...no one knows what they are doing apparently.


That's incorrect. The vaccines still work.

Issue #1 is that vaccinated people *can* spread the virus to others.

Issue #2 is that vaccines reduce the probability of catching a serious infection, but don't reduce it to 0. An additional layer (masks) further reduces the probability. We're trying to improve the odds and reduce community transmission.

Issue #3 is that with winter coming, we're entering new and unknown territory. With covid still circulating and spreading, now everyone is back to partying & travelling, AND we have more contagious variants. We really have no idea how this will play out. This is why caution is needed, so add the mask for good measure.

I'm fully vaccinated, and am flying tomorrow. I will be wearing a CAN95 and carry additional KN95s with me in case my mask gets damaged. Even if the airline didn't require it, I would still wear a medical grade mask while travelling.


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## Eder

The airport I used would not allow M95 masks. The commisionaire there made some people remove them & replace with the 10 cent glorified dust masks. This was last December...rules are likely even more f'd up by now.


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## Money172375

I’ve been using cloth masks since Covid started. Case rates were always low in my region, but lately, our Case rate is higher than Toronto. We’re almost on par with Toronto in terms of actual new cases.

I‘ve read surgical masks are most recommended for daily use…with the N95 considered the gold standard.

how is a surgical mask defined? I see some are listed as non-medical? What criteria should I be looking for?

ASTM? Level 2? Level 3?

what’s a typical cost?

thanks


----------



## agent99

Money172375 said:


> I’ve been using cloth masks since Covid started. Case rates were always low in my region, but lately, our Case rate is higher than Toronto. We’re almost on par with Toronto in terms of actual new cases.
> 
> I‘ve read surgical masks are most recommended for daily use…with the N95 considered the gold standard.
> 
> how is a surgical mask defined? I see some are listed as non-medical? What criteria should I be looking for?
> 
> ASTM? Level 2? Level 3?
> 
> what’s a typical cost?
> 
> thanks


In Kingston, our numbers are the worst they have been during Covid. But we don't have the restrictions we had in 2020. I know people are tired of the restrictions, but still something seems out of whack.

Regarding mask costs etc - James has a link to CAN95 in his post - has prices for on-line ordering. We are not going out much and will continue to use our cloth masks when needed. Haven't been to a restaurant now since early 2020. Just some outdoor patios during summer for a drink.


----------



## Kilbarry20

Money172375 said:


> I’ve been using cloth masks since Covid started. Case rates were always low in my region, but lately, our Case rate is higher than Toronto. We’re almost on par with Toronto in terms of actual new cases.
> 
> I‘ve read surgical masks are most recommended for daily use…with the N95 considered the gold standard.
> 
> how is a surgical mask defined? I see some are listed as non-medical? What criteria should I be looking for?
> 
> ASTM? Level 2? Level 3?
> 
> what’s a typical cost?
> 
> thanks


Ok, right in the wheelhouse! Get the Platinum standard masks from Zentek.










Gold/Mining/EnergyZentek Ltd - ZEN 


IntroductionMarket DataCompact
*Zentek (formerly ZEN Graphene Solutions) - Improving health and safety through nanotechnology*

_*Prevention 
Next-gen defense to combat transmission and infection.*

Our technology helps filter and deactivate pathogens to reduce the risk of transmission, making indoor spaces, higher risk work environments and social interactions safer— especially for those most vulnerable.
*
Detection
Advancing rapid detection and diagnostics.*

Our cutting-edge nanotechnology offers fast, affordable, non-invasive, scalable point-of-care detection for numerous pathogens, including viruses like COVID-19, empowering governments, health agencies and individuals worldwide to identify infections and end outbreaks faster than ever before.
*
Treatment
Enhancing recovery and health outcomes.*

We are developing breakthrough antimicrobial therapies so people can recover faster and live their lives to the fullest. Testing to date has shown our nanotech-powered therapies are safe and effective against numerous pathogens and can potentially transform modalities in medicine across the globe._

*In-vitro testing shows 99.9% effectiveness against bacteria, fungi and viruses at extremely low minimum inhibitory concentrations (MIC).

Zentek's patent-pending graphene-based formulation has achieved excellent safety results and has the potential to be a game changer for treating human-contracted pathogens and infectious disease management.*

FULL DISCLOSURE:

I am a Stockholder, hoping to make a bundle on this company. Older shareholders are already millionaires- because of it. The company has multiple irons in the fire, based on previously being a mining company of this weird substance- Graphene.

It’s FIRST success is the ZEN mask, as it says 100% effective against COVID, etc, AND approved by Health Canada. Presently seeking FDA approval for same. Two Ontario companies are beginning to produce them by the billions.

They look like this...


----------



## Eder

Lol at paper masks...lemme sell you a bridge that climate change won't overflow!


----------



## james4beach

Money172375 said:


> I’ve been using cloth masks since Covid started. Case rates were always low in my region, but lately, our Case rate is higher than Toronto. We’re almost on par with Toronto in terms of actual new cases.
> 
> I‘ve read surgical masks are most recommended for daily use…with the N95 considered the gold standard.
> 
> how is a surgical mask defined? I see some are listed as non-medical? What criteria should I be looking for?
> 
> ASTM? Level 2? Level 3?


Cloth masks can be useful if they are multiple layers of thick material, or alternating patterns like cotton / synthetic / cotton. However I think the concern with cloth masks is that they come in ALL types so it's hard to know how effective they are.

I stopped using cloth masks.

*The best masks are N95 or KN95 or CAN95 *(all equivalent). That's what I wear when I'm travelling or going into crowded offices. These are about $3 to $5 a pop. These aren't surgical masks, or I haven't heard them called that. But yes the 95s are the gold standard.

*Disposable surgical masks* are also recommended for daily use. Just make sure the box says 3 layer, they're available everywhere and are about 20 to 50 cents a mask. Find one that has a good fit, an individual thing, but if the surgical mask fits you snugly it's going to do its job. These aren't true medical masks unless they say ASTM on the box.

*You can also find ASTM level 2 or 3*, which are true medical surgical masks. They are not expensive at all, so I'd suggest getting these. About 50 cents each. Message me and I'll point you to an easy source from a major retailer with free shipping. I'm going to buy more this week as well.

My personal preference for daily use are the ASTM level 2/3, or a non medical surgical mask. As long as they fit your face and nose well, they offer good protection against casual exposure. They've been shown to reduce the spread, even to healthcare workers. They are clearly better than wearing nothing.

However when I'm going on flights or anything really high risk, like hanging out at an indoor office, I use only KN95 or CAN95


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## Plugging Along

Money172375 said:


> I’ve been using cloth masks since Covid started. Case rates were always low in my region, but lately, our Case rate is higher than Toronto. We’re almost on par with Toronto in terms of actual new cases.
> 
> I‘ve read surgical masks are most recommended for daily use…with the N95 considered the gold standard.
> 
> how is a surgical mask defined? I see some are listed as non-medical? What criteria should I be looking for?
> 
> ASTM? Level 2? Level 3?
> 
> what’s a typical cost?
> 
> thanks


I still use cloth, but am running out (kids keep losing them). You want three layers, with the bottom two being cotton tight weave, out layer, doesn't matter as much. Getting ones with the pockets so you can put a p2.5 filter or a surgical mask in (that's the the doctors and nursed did in the early days when there was a short supply) which takes you close to the surgical with the filter. I also ensure there is a very good nose piece. I have found that I have had to replace the noses pieces, but it's better environmentally

If you have a Costco membership, this is the best place (outside of a medical order) in terms of costs and quality. There were many studies on how their masks tested and it was consistent. These are some of the disposable masks I have purchased.

Certified N95 Particulate Respirator N95 - 20 masks | Costco
KN95 - non certified Black KN95 Disposable 4-layer Face Mask, 20-pack | Costco
95 PFE Medicom Connections 95PFE Respirator - 20 masks | Costco
Level 3 Surgical Humask Pro - Surgical Mask - 50 masks | Costco 

I am a little bit of a mask junky, we have so many. I try to use the most appropriate masks for what we are doing. 


Cloth masks (no filter), running in and out of places for short times and I can generally avoid people. Usually quick errands where don't want to throw out the mask so quickly
Cloth mask with filter - in places in and out quickly but there are more people (can't social distance as easily) or I am in a place longer period of time. My kids were these at school at day and can swap out the filter.
Paper masks non surgical - I have to wear this going to into medical facilities, usually health services makes me change into this (like my mother's care facility, labs, hospital)
Surgical - indoors in higher risk areas where I need more breathability (walking around or activities indoors). I had surgical masks shipped from outside of the country early on, but the Humask pro is new and I think it will be a good add.
KN95 - higher risk areas for a long period of time, I find the KN95 a little small (I have a big head with hair, but they fit nicely on my kids and very snug; We used these driving through BC in the fires in the summer and it was really helpful. I make my kids wear these ones on the bus because there are alot of unknown people.
95PFE are a little more breathable, and I like the shape.
N95 I have a few that we will use in high risk areas like on a plane. I also wore them when we can to go to emergency and knew it was really busy.

I also have some of these masks, as I teach in a classroom. These are built like a tank, but breathability is very difficult. 
Certespiri | Sustainable Safety Mask

I find the biggest difference is if there is a good nose wire. I bought some heavy duty ones that self stick, and find that helpful for any mask that doesn't feel tight


----------



## Eder

Was in Toronto General yesterday...the top ENT in Canada wasn't wearing a mask at the clinic for the few hours I was on the floor.. I kept mine on but did lol. I guess Trudeau is right...wear a mask in front of the masses but party on maskless when rubbing up with the unvaccinated COP elite...


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## sags

Maybe he has already had covid and is also fully vaccinated ?

Trudeau's wife had covid and he didn't even get the sniffles......strong like bull.


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## damian13ster

Rules for thee but not for me.
Whether it comes to corruption, or COVID rules


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## KaeJS

Masks are ridiculous and redundant.

/End thread.


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## james4beach

sags said:


> Maybe he has already had covid and is also fully vaccinated ?
> 
> Trudeau's wife had covid and he didn't even get the sniffles......strong like bull.


It's a lottery. You don't necessarily catch COVID just because you are maskless.

And a mask isn't a solid force-field against infection either.

These are things with nudge the probabilities in your favour. We're in a pandemic, with an evolving virus and we still don't have a stable situation. Some people will gamble with their life, but those of us with common sense will take measures to protect ourselves.


----------



## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Was in Toronto General yesterday...the top ENT in Canada wasn't wearing a mask at the clinic for the few hours I was on the floor.. I kept mine on but did lol. I guess Trudeau is right...wear a mask in front of the masses but party on maskless when rubbing up with the unvaccinated COP elite...


 ... that top ENT must have been snacking on the job hence maskless. Or he's waiting to get reported or you're lying 'cause entrance to TGH requires "visitors" even to be masked at all time, let alone patients and doctors.


----------



## Beaver101

damian13ster said:


> Rules for thee but not for me.
> Whether it comes to corruption, or COVID rules


 ... for once I agree with your post above when applicable to the upper echelons of companies and governments. Nothing new. Now moving on.


----------



## bgc_fan

Haven't really looked at this in detail, but there is a meta-study regarding the effectiveness of various public health measures including mask wearing. 









Effectiveness of public health measures in reducing the incidence of covid-19, SARS-CoV-2 transmission, and covid-19 mortality: systematic review and meta-analysis


Objective To review the evidence on the effectiveness of public health measures in reducing the incidence of covid-19, SARS-CoV-2 transmission, and covid-19 mortality. Design Systematic review and meta-analysis. Data sources Medline, Embase, CINAHL, Biosis, Joanna Briggs, Global Health, and...




www.bmj.com


----------



## Eder

Beaver101 said:


> ... that top ENT must have been snacking on the job hence maskless. Or he's waiting to get reported or you're lying 'cause entrance to TGH requires "visitors" even to be masked at all time, let alone patients and doctors.


Of course I'm lying since my observation doesn't conform to your views of reality.


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## Beaver101

Eder said:


> Of course I'm lying since my observation doesn't conform to your views of reality.


 ... that is a very good possibility. 

But this doesn't distract the other reality that I'll report him/her to the hospital administration when I see that with my own eyes upon accompanying a friend to that department in the new year. 

One would think any health practitioner in a licensed hospital would be following its own hospital protocols vigorously (aka taking safety "seriously"), let alone a "top" doc "in Canada" flaunting it. Is he/she expecting his/her patients to flaunt the rules too? I'm guessing it's okay with you as his/her only patient/visitor.


----------



## Beaver101

bgc_fan said:


> Haven't really looked at this in detail, but there is a meta-study regarding the effectiveness of various public health measures including mask wearing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effectiveness of public health measures in reducing the incidence of covid-19, SARS-CoV-2 transmission, and covid-19 mortality: systematic review and meta-analysis
> 
> 
> Objective To review the evidence on the effectiveness of public health measures in reducing the incidence of covid-19, SARS-CoV-2 transmission, and covid-19 mortality. Design Systematic review and meta-analysis. Data sources Medline, Embase, CINAHL, Biosis, Joanna Briggs, Global Health, and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com


 ... I look at the bottom of the article (published November 18, 2021 (aka today)):

*



... Conclusions and policy implications

Click to expand...

*


> _Current evidence from quantitative analyses indicates a benefit associated with handwashing, mask wearing, and physical distancing in reducing the incidence of covid-19. The narrative results of this review indicate an effectiveness of both individual or packages of public health measures on the transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and incidence of covid-19. Some of the public health measures seem to be more stringent than others and have a greater impact on economies and the health of populations. When implementing public health measures, it is important to consider specific health and sociocultural needs of the communities and to weigh the potential negative effects of the public health measures against the positive effects for general populations. Further research is needed to assess the effectiveness of public health measures after adequate vaccination coverage has been achieved. It is likely that further control of the covid-19 pandemic depends not only on high vaccination coverage and its effectiveness but also on ongoing adherence to effective and sustainable public health measures.
> 
> *What is already known on this topic*_
> 
> _Public health measures have been identified as a preventive strategy for influenza pandemics_
> _The effectiveness of such interventions in reducing the transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is unknown_
> _*What this study adds*_
> 
> _The findings of this review suggest that personal and social measures, including handwashing, mask wearing, and physical distancing are effective at reducing the incidence of covid-19_
> _More stringent measures, such as lockdowns and closures of borders, schools, and workplaces need to be carefully assessed by weighing the potential negative effects of these measures on general populations_
> _Further research is needed to assess the effectiveness of public health measures after adequate vaccination coverage_


 ... conclusion also says this research is on-going. I think anyone taking this seriously as a "pandemic" can say the same.


----------



## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... conclusion also says this research is on-going. I think anyone taking this seriously as a "pandemic" can say the same.


Yeah all of this is ongoing research. For example the delta variant is behaving very differently compared to the earlier virus.

I think it's a really good idea to remain cautious and use the masks. I was using lower quality masks in summer (warmer weather, healthier people) but with this colder weather I've switched to better quality masks.

We've seen examples of some countries that relaxed their restrictions and then got a surge in cases. Denmark is a great example. They eliminated all restrictions 3 months ago, got rid of masks and stopped checking vaccination. Their case numbers have skyrocketed since then.


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## Beaver101

^ As I mentioned elsewhere, I think we'll be (very) lucky to see the end of this pandemic next year. I can see it dragging it for another year or 2 ... or maybe forever as a "normal (new)" way of life.


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## agent99

Beaver101 said:


> ^ As I mentioned elsewhere, I think we'll be (very) lucky to see the end of this pandemic next year. I can see it dragging it for another year or 2 ... or maybe forever as a "normal (new)" way of life.


Unfortunately likely true.

Sad that even some on this forum don't understand why masks help stop transmission. It is partly because of them that we will have to live with this pandemic for a long time still. Thanks guys 

It has taken a long time for our health authorities to finally realize that the virus is likely largely transmitted via aerosols. They should have read this forum  last year! Without a mask, you transmit those aerosols just by breathing or talking or sneezing. The finer droplets then remain suspended for others to breath in. They are also picked up by ventilation systems and distributed to other areas. Now better quality masks are more readily available, we should use them. I am not so sure that the physical distancing really helps very much to stop transmission, but it is an added precaution.

Right now, despite the high level of vaccinations, the pandemic in some areas is much worse than it was when it first broke out in early 2020. But people are tired of it and we have new variants. Becoming complacent will just make things worse. Already happening in Europe. Discouraging


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## agent99

Staples has a lot of masks listed for on-line purchase. 

Where is that gov site that lists which manufacturers are approved? And, are those approvals just for medically approved masks, such as N95s?

Thinking we should buy a supply. We keep losing our 3-ply fabric masks with filter.


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## Money172375

I wear a mask where required, but I’m still not convinced they do very much. Yes, they are but one tool we have. But everyone is wearing masks almost everywhere. We won’t “mask” our way out of this. And I’m now reluctant to say, that we won’t vax our way out of it either.

my guess is that we are are waiting for better treatments that we can buy OTC or we’re waiting for it to ”disappear” on its own like SARS and H1N1.


----------



## Eder

Hopefully the Covid pill will deliver
Vaccines are a disappointment from their earlier hype


----------



## Money172375

my son hit the slopes in Ontario Yesterday. Masks required on hills and lifts. nothing like a moist, wet mask against your face when it’s -10C.


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## like_to_retire

Money172375 said:


> Masks required on hills and lifts. nothing like a moist, wet mask against your face when it’s -10C.


How is that different than the scarf everyone usually wears?


----------



## Money172375

like_to_retire said:


> How is that different than the scarf everyone usually wears?
> 
> View attachment 22442


Don’t know. don’t cover my mouth with a scarf for the same reason.


----------



## Beaver101

Money172375 said:


> Don’t know. don’t cover my mouth with a scarf for the same reason.


 ... edit: wear the scarf for the mask requirement wherever. Take it off and go maskless/scarfless (if that's what one does normally) whilst skiing.

Edit: Actually I might apply this (gave-me-the)-idea (a customized exterior coating) to my mask(s) even without the need to keep it dry.


----------



## james4beach

I wear KN95 and Canadian-made CAN95 masks in very high-risk settings (basically just airports and airplanes these days).

Otherwise, I'm using medical grade surgical masks for daily things such as shopping and public areas. I only buy ASTM Level 3 ones, which are true medical grade. There are even some decent ones at my local No Frills store in the cleaning aisle.

I wanted to share a really good one I found. I ordered some of these directly from the manufacturer. Primed is a major medical supplier in Canada, and these masks are made in Canada.

Primed PG4-1473

They're very comfortable, and the inside is soft. But what I really love about these is how snugly they fit my face, _and hold_ against the face. It has a pretty impressive seal around my nose and mouth. I can't feel any air escaping on the sides, and my glasses don't fog either.

I was really impressed. Probably the best seal that I've ever seen in a surgical style mask. If I go on a very long flight, I think I might even switch into one of these on the plane if I get tired of wearing the KN95/CAN95.


----------

