# frugality; in Canada; natural disasters



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Obviously, this is *NOT the place or bandwidth to discuss socio-economic-geopolitical issues of disasters 
(natural or man-made), that are occuring in other countries these days, 
but as recent events in Japan and elsewhere* show us,
there are many issues that face the general population in case of natural disasters.

Closer to home; *Ottawa and surrounding area is Class 5 earthquake area*.
We had a class 5.x quake as recent as last summer. Fortunately, it was only
a tremor compared to the situation in Japan and the 5.x after shocks, but
it just goes to show that you never know where the next one will hit.

Ok, we are *basically a cash-less society, depending on credit cards and
debit cards and bank machines to get at our money*. Should a serious
natural disaster befall Ottawa, there will be a severe impact on interact,
credit and banking machines as well as internet. That means that in
cases of prolonged electricity blackouts (due to damaged electricity)
infracture, the disaster plan that local utilities probably have, will be
in force to supply electricity to critical areas of Ottawa such as
hospitals, gov't, and emergency services. 

In those such cases, if one needs money to buy goods and food, it will
have to be on a CASH BASIS, as electronic transactions may not be
working.

*What should one do?* to; 
a) be as frugal as possible,
b) manage one's personal situation 
(assuming here, that your shelter is still there,
you are NOT injured in anyway, and it's only the economic impact
on YOURSELF or your FAMILY.

*Andrewf, Royal-mail, HaroldCrump and anyone else....*I value your learned opinions...lets hear them.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't agree that we are a cashless society. Far from it, despite how the big banks are trying to push us towards that. The purpose is so they gain control and insight into what each of us spends our money on. But anyway, I've lived through Ice Storm 98 as well as Blackout 03 and in both of these cases plastic was useless (unless the merchant still had credit card slips and one of those old manual carbon copy machines from the '80s). 

I recommend everyone always keep a quantity of physical cash on hand in case of disaster. Our entire society depends upon electricity. If we lose it, we can't eat. Use and keep cash, keep safe.

And don't worry about robbers in masks. The banks and their fees are far bigger robbers than those clowns will ever be.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

What happened in Japan is one of those extreme cases where cans of tuna and bottled water buried in the backyard would have been the only solution (for those that survived, in the first place).

Evaluating a less dramatic scenario, one can start to look at some reasonable planning and options.

While we are not entirely a cashless society, we are sufficiently cash less to cause a major panic and shutdown of the economic system.
We keep a certain amount of cash at home.
While it can help sustain us through temporary shut down of banks, etc. in a crisis situation it will probably not be enough.
Food and gas prices skyrocket and usually there is shortage anyway.
A few thousands in cash may not be enough.
But it is still worthwhile to have some cash at home - how much is hard to predict, at couple thousand at least.

It might also be an option to temporarily go away somewhere else, but usually all exit points like roads and airports are grid locked anyway.

As for frugality, we practice it regardless.
Spending less than you make, consuming less than you can, donating what you can, etc.
We try and practice this as much as we can.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

If things are really bedlam after a natural disaster, I think you'll find that paper doesn't carry much weight either--not even gold if you think that will save you. If things are desparate, I'd imagine the real things of value would be the things that help you survive and skills.

All that's to say that cash vs. not cash is kind of a moot point.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

After the disaster I walk down the road with my Remington 870 pump action shot gun.

I meet up at a fork in the road with other people who have cash, gold, bottled water, and food.

Guess who walks away with everything?


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

bean438 said:


> After the disaster I walk down the road with my Remington 870 pump action shot gun.
> 
> I meet up at a fork in the road with other people who have cash, gold, bottled water, and food.
> 
> Guess who walks away with everything?


Probably the group in the fork in the road who are protected with four people all carrying. These people, of course, believe in the greater good of all their fellow humans instead of the selfish needs of themselves alone.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

The problem is with such emergecies, is that you would always have to have the cash in your wallet at all times. You would never know when it would happen. 

I make it a practice to have a least $100 or a little more in my wallet at all times, but I don't know if I would carry much more than that just in case. How much is really enough to have in your wallet?

My spouse was in the East Coast blackout in 03, and just happened to be going through the security line in the NY JFK Airport. Credit cards, ATMs, debit were all down. Unless you had a lot in your wallet, the cash in our safe isn't going to do anyone any good.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

I'd like to think that if the situation was that dire, money wouldn't be necessary for basic provisions like food and water. And if it was that bad, the money wouldn't have that much value anyways.

For other situations like the black-out where it's more of an inconvenience than a life-threatening thing, it's nice to have some cash on-hand. I keep $40 in the wallet most of the time since the black-out and it comes in handy, especially if a vendor's credit card or debit machine isn't working.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I can't believe you guys are suggesting that cash isn't useful in dire emergencies. Japan is a perfect example of where those who have cash are very much in better shape than those who do not. Without electricity your plastic is worthless. Need cash to eat. To suggest that having cash is just as good as not having cash is utter nonsense.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Cash in hand is 100x better than plastic.
The question is how useful either of them is in situations like Japan's.

However, in situations like Egypt & Libya, one can easily see how useful cash is vs. plastic.
Those with cash in hand are better able to pay their way out to safety via boats, buses, etc.
Back in the 1980s when communism was falling apart all across the Eastern bloc, those that had stashed away international cash like US$ were able to bribe their way out of the bloc into safety.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'd rather have food/water/emergency supplies. You can't eat money, and if things are really dire, money won't be worth anything.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> I recommend everyone always keep a quantity of physical cash on hand in case of disaster. Our entire society depends upon electricity. If we lose it, we can't eat. Use and keep cash, keep safe.


Well, just like some others in this forum, I also lived through the '/98 ice storm
and the big blackout that hit Ontario in 2003 (seemed so long ago too)..
but it was a wakeup call certainly for us in Ottawa and the surrounding area,
that earthquake tremors do happen infrequently here....so far they have
been minor..but again, you never know.....and the big power blackout we
experienced and the ice storm reinforce the knowledge that conditions
either caused by nature or manmade (as in the power blackout) CAN
and DO occur infrequently.

The ice storm caused many areas to be without power for several days.
The hydro blackout, although it was a couple of days for most of Ottawa,
took much longer to restore in outlying areas...and for one point in most
people's lives, you couldn't find a small capacity (2kw +) gas generator anywhere here.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> What happened in Japan is one of those extreme cases where cans of tuna and bottled water buried in the backyard would have been the only solution (for those that survived, in the first place).
> 
> 
> > not intending to undermine the seriousness of their situation and the
> ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> I'd rather have food/water/emergency supplies. You can't eat money, and if things are really dire, money won't be worth anything.


Agreed. I remember some ads that were run on TV a couple of years back.

"Are you prepared?" or something like that..emergency food/candles/batteries
etc. 
Cell phones would become useless unless you have a source of hydro power
or a small gas generator to charge up the cell phone batteries.
I know that the major telecommunications companies have big diesel emergency generators as well as huge battery plants to ensure that yoi
don't lose communication facilities in the event of some kind of major 
disruption,,,but glitches/overloads can still occur.

But as far as money (cash), I think it would still be useful in your wallet,
as nobody will give you free gas or food, when they can sell it a premium
prices because of shortages...that $2 staple...a loaf of bread or quart of milk can become a hoarding or gouging item in disaster situations. 
If you need it badly because you are very hungry...you are not worried
about the actual cost at that point.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I lived in the back-country during the ice storm. We had a wood stove and shelter - good to go. The diesel generator was bonus, and cash would be bonus to fuel it if it was for sale. I've slept in an improvised shelter in northern Winnipeg in freezing rain in Jan - really quite cozy as long as you have fire and warm clothes.

The first thing you need is a safe location, and money may be handy to get to one. It really depends on the situation. Besides a safe location and shelter from the elements I know I can only survive about 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food. The feeling of hunger goes away from adrenaline or time just like if you don't sleep for a day, but for some reason people immediately panic about food!

Once I have a safe location the second thing I would be looking for in Cdn winter is a lighter and warm clothes. You never know what the weather will do in Canada, and you can easily die from the cold. Food is the very last requirement, but for some reason it's the first thing on everyone's mind? Eating dehydrates you and takes energy, both of which are more important!

Once I have heat/shelter the third thing I need is a cup to either hold water or melt water in. Yes a cup or some sort of container. You can die from dehydration. Any other secondary items I'm sure I can find. I'm sure everyone would be scrambling for groceries but it's really not a big concern. If your house has a normal amount of groceries, a generator and some fuel you are set I think.

I actually carry with me every single day a lighter, a multi-tool, LED keychain, and a spare $100. The lighter is for heat and water, the multi tool has a knife for first aid and many other functions, and a LED long lasting light for the dark without burning lighter fuel. $100 is bonus - you're laughing


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Hi:

Being a rural resident puts me miles ahead of urban folks. I happen to have cash at home, but for opportunistic Kijiji buys, not emergency reasons.

I have resources far more useful than cash:

diesel fuel and a tractor
gasoline
canned provisions; fresh potatoes, carrots, onions, beets
firewood
wood stoves
chainsaw
a lake within a 2 km walk, a river within 1km
books: what I don't have in my head, I have in my library
5 generation neighbours who really know what to do in the bush
a garden, field, and 20 acres of bush

All this is just a side effect of the way I live. If I actually sat down and prepared for an emergency I'd probably have to get a gun, a generator, a cold cellar, dry food and a solar dehydrator, maybe even a hidden bunker in the back 40.

I chuckle with the province mandated emergency shelter stuff out here. Even the dumbest resident around here can manage anything short of his house disappearing, and even then, he has relatives all about, and the hunt camp.

There are so many assumptions underpinning cities, that I just shudder. To be really prepared for an emergency and reside in a city is an oxymoron.

hboy43


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Hi:
> 
> Being a rural resident puts me miles ahead of urban folks. I happen to have cash at home, but for opportunistic Kijiji buys, not emergency reasons.
> 
> I chuckle with the province mandated emergency shelter stuff out here. Even the dumbest resident around here can manage *anything short of his house disappearing.*There are so many assumptions underpinning cities, that I just shudder. To be really prepared for an emergency and *reside in a city is an oxymoron.*hboy43


Yes, city dwellers don't have the options of rural dwellers in the case of
a big disaster (floods, ice storms, earthquakes..and prolonged hydro outages,
especially in winter months at -20c.

However, if living in an earthquake or flood zone, and Ottawa is as I previously
mentioned around a class 5 earthquake zone, so tall buildings do need to be
reinforced for this. We had a few infrequently over the last 20 years but
most are just regarded as earth tremors (4.0 to 5.x) in magnitude..but
you never know when the "big one" might happen. 

As long as you have shelter, then a natural event can be considered an inconvenience,
but if your dwelling is destroyed, that's another matter entirely.

Anyway, I don't want to get into the current events and geo-political
discussion of what is happening in Japan and elsewhere..I just wanted
some input of how one should prepare in the event of some unpredicatable
event.

Canada is not immune from earthquakes either...
http://earthquakescanada.nrcan.gc.ca/zones/index-eng.php

and here is earthquake classes/magnitudes
http://www.geo.mtu.edu/UPSeis/magnitude.html


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

http://www.getprepared.gc.ca/index-eng.aspx

http://www.getprepared.gc.ca/knw/kt/kt-eng.aspx


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

*March 16, 1.40pm..Ottawa experienced another tremor*

Well, interesting that we are discussing this right after events in Japan about
5 days ago. Japan is still getting NUMEROUS 5.x aftershocks......AND...
as of around 1.40pm today, there was an earth tremor for a few seconds in
Ottawa!

I don't know if Newton's 3rd law of motion.. "for every action there is an
equal and opposite reaction" applies in this case
...and even though there is still some major seismic activity going on in the Pacific rim right now...
there seems to be "something going on down there" at home, here in Eastern Canada as well, 
although THANKFULLY not at the same magnitudes!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> http://www.getprepared.gc.ca/index-eng.aspx
> 
> http://www.getprepared.gc.ca/knw/kt/kt-eng.aspx


In terms of earthquakes in Canada...
http://www.getprepared.gc.ca/knw/ris/eq-eng.aspx#a3

They mention "discussing earthquake insurance with your insurer"..

ah,,,,that is a catastrophic event, and pretty much most insurers exclude

..nuclear accident
..surface waters, except city watermain
...smoke from industrial operation or accidents
and
snowslide, EARTHQUAKE, landslide, OR ANY OTHER EARTH MOVEMENT

and also these man made incidents...
..war, invasion, civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection or military power

So it seems that if you lose your home/property due to any of the above
YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

carverman said:


> So it seems that if you lose your home/property due to any of the above
> YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN!


So basically, sell your city house and rent a primary residence instead. Invest the leftover money in insurance companies that don't actually cover anything

Buy a piece of farm land outside the city (better investment than Gold historically) that you can escape to in case of emergency for fresh water and temporary shelter

Don't leave home in Canada without proper clothing (gloves and mittens etc) Most Canadaians drive around all winter without proper clothing, but this simple mistake will kill you long before starvation in a Cdn disaster

Buy guns and ammo


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> So basically, sell your city house and rent a primary residence instead. *Invest the leftover money in insurance companies that don't actually cover anything*Buy a piece of farm land outside the city (better investment than Gold historically) that you can escape to in case of emergency for fresh water and temporary shelter


Well they (insurance) used to cover more but with the lessons they learned from hurricane katrina and other disasters that have occurred in the last 5 years, large scale rebuild costs can almost wipe them out, so now, you can't seem get much more than
fire and theft, and if you make too many (minor) claims on those, *you can be "blacklisted" by all of them *when attempting to get renewal insurance, if you get dropped by the current one. 
Nasty business it has become, but you really don't have much choice when it comes to fire insurance, as most people don't have the financial resources to rebuild after a total fire loss, and most mortgage lenders insist on fire coverage.

Tornadoes and hurricane damage is another natural disaster that may or may not be covered by insurance. 
If it is there may be a limit on coverage. Sewer backup is still covered in most cases (as the insurance company can
try to sue the city to recover some of their payout), but with most these days, they have a high deductible 
and limited coverage as well.

You make an interesting point about "investing in insurance companies". 
As in Canada, they seem to be operating on a profit basis alongside the major banks. 
They are in the business to make money..not payout in claims, so they prefer to keep your premiums 
and pass the profits onto their investors.



> Don't leave home in Canada without proper clothing (gloves and mittens etc) Most Canadaians drive around all winter without proper clothing, but this simple mistake will kill you long before starvation in a Cdn disaster


True, but for most city dwellers, help is just a 911 call away even in the winter. 
Of course, for those operating a snow mobile in the bush or on frozen lakes, or getting caught in a winter severe snowstorm on the highway, it could prove fatal, if common sense and being prepared for any eventuality is not followed.

This past winter, a lot of drivers got caught in ome between London and Sarnia and had to be rescued. 
One motorist apparently left the safety of his vehicle and started to trek across fields in -20c winter temperatures with severe
windchill factor..and didn't make it...died of hypothermia,



> Buy guns and ammo


Works for Alberta/Sask...my brother lives in Peace River. He's an avid hunter and stocks his freezers with moose. 
Got caught a couple times over the past few years with bear and moose attacking him.
Critical times where you have to make a fast decision and make that first shot count!
He says you probably wouldn't survive out in the woods without a gun,
because of wolves, bears and charging moose.

However, in the city..firearms can lead to other problems.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes but I was referring to any kind of disaster. Calling 911 because you're cold isn't going to save you during a natural disaster... they have limited resources

If you're caught out of your home in the winter in any kind of disaster, traffic jam etc you are screwed if you just auto started your car and ran outside in a suit and tie.

Like I said I can survive on pretty much nothing and have camped in the winter many times but I'd be hurting without adequate clothing in Canada. I'd say that is what would catch most Canadians off guard if there was a natural disaster

A wood stove in your home is a smart backup in Canada, but you can survive fine without heat if you have warm clothing.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> A wood stove in your home is a smart backup in Canada, but you can survive fine without heat if you have warm clothing.


Agreed, but the problem with wood stoves is that you need to store
a sizeable quantity of wood to last you during the catastrophic event.
And maybe an insurance policy that will accept a wood stove being in the house,. With some fire insurance policies, you may not be able to
use that option.

I happened to have a wood burning fireplace in my house that I converted
to a gas insert fireplace. In the event of electrical interruption, it has a 
pilot light and I can use it to heat the upstairs portion of the house.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> And maybe an insurance policy that will accept a wood stove being in the house,. With some fire insurance policies, you may not be able to
> use that option.


This is absolutely true. We were fired by our previous "city" insurer because we actually USED or wood stove as opposed to just having it there for occasional use. The risk profile is backwards here, because someone like me who burns every day and actually observes and understands his stove is a de facto lower risk than the occasional ignorant user.

I would expect plenty of insurance trouble trying to have a wood stove in the city. Probably plenty of bylaw trouble in some jurisdictions too.

hboy43


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

mode3sour said:


> Yes but I was referring to any kind of disaster.


This stuff all comes down to diaster recovery and risk mitigation. There's virtually no way to plan and be 100% for everything. So then it comes to impact, probability, and cost associated with the risks. The closest I've seen to 100% risk mitagation is the movie 'Blast from the Past' where the dad built a bomb shelter with timed 

Generally, I try to follow the Pareto's rule of 80/20. I'll make sure that I'm prepared for at least 80% of the emergencies that may happen in life, and the other 20%, I'll have to rely on my wit, and problem solving ability. 

For the 80% - 
My finances well in order with as Royal Mail suggests a tier 1-2-3, this is also important in case of a diaster, because having cash (assuming you can access it) gives you options, that others without it may not. 
Cash in a safe at home
Cash in my wallet
Food, water - we have enough in our home to last weeks, we also have food and water in the vehicles all the time, but mostly to deal with the emergency of unhappy kidlets
Blankets, extra clothing in the vehicles
We have propane in the BBQ, but that won't last too long, but at least we can cook some of the food. 

Assuming we can get some gas, and the roads are accessible, we also have another property in the next province with full ammenities. 

I'm not quite sure what to do without electricity or gas though. I think I'll have to look into that a little bit more.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> This stuff all comes down to diaster recovery and risk mitigation. There's virtually no way to plan and be 100% for everything. So then it comes to impact, probability, and cost associated with the risks.
> For the 80% -
> My finances well in order with as Royal Mail suggests a tier 1-2-3, this is also important in case of a diaster, because having cash (assuming you can access it) gives you options, that others without it may not.
> Cash in a safe at home
> ...


Good plan..at least you are prepared and should a disaster of biblical
proportions strike in your area, at least you have some capability of
surviving the first few days.

Well thankfully we don't have to worry about tidal waves (Tsunamis) and 
anything that can happen here is either weather related (tornadoes/hurricanes
or really bad ice storms ..like that one that hit the Ottawa are in 1998.
Short of a nuclear power plant meltdown, we are reasonable safe..but again
you never know..the hurricane that struck Toronto in the mid 50s did a LOT
of damage.

However, I just found out on CBC news, that the Darlington nuclear generating
facility is built RIGHT OVER TOP of a fault line in Lake Ontario. 
Now you would think that they would have checked first!

Interesting that Japan built a seawall in the disaster area to prevent such
devastation and it was constructed very well (30 ft high and 10 feet thick)..
but it got broken up and scattered along with everything else when hit with
a tidal wave like that. Moving water carries a lot of force!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

This area isn't overly prone to natural disasters. Yes, Darlington is on a fault line but that fault line is not very seismically active. When we the last time there was any earthquake at all on that fault?

Even ice storms can be managed. Quebec learned a lesson about the construction of long distance transmission lines. 

We don't really experience forest fires, or even catastrophic droughts (we have a luxury of having an immense reservoir of fresh water on our doorsteps).


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## cazaubon (Jan 18, 2011)

A friend recently in the Christchurch earthquake said she learned that couscous was better to have on hand than rice, as it required a lot less water to cook. Good thought, as often natural disasters result in a lack of clean water.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> This area isn't overly prone to natural disasters. Yes, Darlington is on a fault line but that fault line is not very seismically active. When we the last time there was any earthquake at all on that fault?


Yesterday on CBC, they quoted someone from OPG saying "what fault line?..we investigated that years ago and there is no fault line"..
So it depends on who you want to believe..the media, the environmentalists, or OPG. 

In any case, yes, there hasn't been any seismic activity in that particular area, as compared to the Ottawa/western Quebec area. 



> Even ice storms can be managed. Quebec learned a lesson about the construction of long distance transmission lines.


Yes,true, it was the old design of their transmission line towers, that were very weak to take that kind of additional ice load. 
When they were built, no one thought about "super" ice storms like the one we had in '98, 
and I suppose no one is worried too much about earthquakes here (eastern Ont/western Quebec) either, 
as long as they are magnitude 4.x or less.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

What's that phenonemom called that you normally don't think anything will ever happen to _you_ in _your_ town, only to others

Japan was ridiculously prepared compared to us. Lots of things could happen that haven't in our short inhabitation of this continent, and could be even harder due to sub zero temperatures. People complain about scraping their cars off, try actually doing something outside in it

Don't worry though. "Nothing like that would ever happen to us"


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## Kim (Jan 10, 2011)

Well there is the Just World Phenomenon but that might not fit exactly.

Naive Phenomenon ( made that one up ).
Too busy to worry about that right now Phenomenon ( made that up too ).

We farm and would be alright for a while - we would miss a fuel supply dearly even though we have a team to chore with if needed. 

if an area was really devastated the people would go to shelters / family / friends elsewhere until it was possible to return. I like to think Canadians would help their countrymen in any way possible if the need arose. 

I agree though don't get stuck in the cold without the proper clothing Brrrrr.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> For the 80% -
> Assuming we can get some gas, and the roads are accessible, we also have another property in the next province with full ammenities.
> 
> I'm not quite sure what to do without electricity or gas though. I think I'll have to look into that a little bit more.


tsK! tSK! P.A. with your 80% preparedness, you would think you thought of
a Honda generator (1-2kw) and 30lb propane bottles, a propane camp stove,
and adaptor hose for those BIG tanks. I would get about 10 to 20 of the big
gas containers and keep them in a handy place where it's cool enough for the
gasoline in the containers not to turn to jelly in the summer..aka Napalm!

Now having covered those angles (cooking/electricity)..you have to examine
what you could do for the other 20% that you have to use your wits in the
event of the situation.....

lets see..
ITEM ------------------- IN THE EVENT OF IT HAPPENING
Radiation suit ................. nuclear fallout ??
Bee protection............... (attack of killer WASPS/bees) ??
zombies attack...............(shotgun, axe, flame thrower? bowie knife) ??
Massive flood............... (power boat; fast but you need gas
or row boat ; slow and you won't look cool rowing?) ??
Massive solar radiation...... (cant use cell phone, cant call 911) ??
Sinkholes .....(inflatable instant wings or military bailey bridge?) ??
Earthquakes......(used desk or bear suit to protect from falling objects ) ??
Locusts...............(hmm..what does one do for locusts attacking...you fry
them and eat them for protein..I guess) 
No access to your money..hmm..now that is priceless and you won't even
be able to use the MC!

As they say..the power of positive thinking overcomes all obstacles!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Well Carve, I do have a propane tank that is usually full, but that's for my bbq, but I could hook it up to my camping stove if need be. No room for a generator, or to store all the extra propane (not to mention the safety with 2 little ones running around). We're thinking of a fire pit, but I'm not sure if that would help us very much, especially in the winter. In summer, it might be okay... we like cooking with fire =)


_ITEM ------------------- IN THE EVENT OF IT HAPPENING
Radiation suit ................. nuclear fallout ?? - *I figure I could use the radiation to cook my food? Isn't that how microwaves work. Plus, with growing kids, I would have to keep getting new sizes every year*
Bee protection............... (attack of killer WASPS/bees) ??* I'll just stay inside. I do have 2 CASES of wasp spray, and last time my spouse used a pressure washer and an airsoft pellet gun to take down the hives*
zombies attack...............(shotgun, axe, flame thrower? bowie knife) ??*Are you nuts, it would be a bigger risk to have that in my house... my spouse and kids would love it, plus, my spouse could use his pellet gun for something else*
Massive flood............... (power boat; fast but you need gas
or row boat ; slow and you won't look cool rowing?) ??*I live in the prairies, it would have to be one heck of a flood. We did have the biggest flood of the century a few years ago, and my mitigation was always to live on the top of the hill. If not, we do have blow up rafts and air mattresses*
Massive solar radiation...... (cant use cell phone, cant call 911) *Turn down the heat, to save money? Good thing I have SPF 60 sunscreen*??
Sinkholes .....(inflatable instant wings or military bailey bridge?) ??*Ha, I have water wings for the kids already, and lots of floating toys... *
Earthquakes......(used desk or bear suit to protect from falling objects ) ??*What the heck is bear suit?*
Locusts...............(hmm..what does one do for locusts attacking...you fry
them and eat them for protein..I guess) _


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Well Carve, I do have a propane tank that is usually full, but that's for my bbq, but I could hook it up to my camping stove if need be. No room for a generator, or to store all the extra propane (not to mention the safety with 2 little ones running around). We're thinking of a fire pit, but I'm not sure if that would help us very much, especially in the winter. In summer, it might be okay... we like cooking with fire =)


Ok, but don't forget that you will need an adapter hose to go from the new
style Propane tank fitting to the old style screw on mini-1lb-tank fitting.

I have one of those, because I AM frugal and refuse to pay the ridiculous 
retail price for a throwaway.... (now isn't that progress in our modern society?)
...small tanks to which the Ont gov't is now adding an "Eco fee" (read disposal tax)
on top of the 13% taxes already. These tanks sell for approx $5 now + all of
these taxes..(10c for the 12oz of propane and $4.90 for the container, profit
margins and of course lots of tax).... for Mr. "Scrooge" McGinty who sits in his counting house,counting HIS tax money coming in like Scrooge McDuck.

And you need to get a mini-Genny (the RV kind) so that your kids can still
watch flat screen tv and play their video games..in case of prolonged 
hydro outage of course..like we had in Ontario a few years back (2004). 

Also, you would need a Coleman 12v cooler that you can plug into your
car battery or an adapter to run off 120vac..hence the necessity for the
portable AC generator. to chill some nice wine, beer and a bottle of
France's finest bubbly...in case you have anything to celebrate....
...and last but not least...a few bottles of that $250 wine, that one would say.."to die for"...


_ITEM ------------------- IN THE EVENT OF IT HAPPENING
Radiation suit ................. nuclear fallout *I figure I could use the radiation to cook my food? Isn't that how microwaves work. [/QUOTE]

Sorry to misinform you P.A. But microwaves work on much longer wavelengths
than Beta/Gamma rays from nuclear fallout. While prolonged exposure to
microwave radiation will cook you and cause serious damage and cancers,
so will Gamma rays from Uranium 235 or worse still Plutonium 238,which kill you
immune system "tout suite". 

tout suite
right away; with all haste. (Pronounced "toot sweet." From French toute de suite.) 

..and cause your insides to disintegrate (liquify).. a very nasty way
to go..and you won't be interested in any $250 bottles of that nice wine
at that point. :-{




Massive flood............... (power boat; fast but you need gas
or row boat ; slow and you won't look cool rowing?) I live in the prairies, it would have to be one heck of a flood. We did have the biggest flood of the century a few years ago, and my mitigation was always to live on the top of the hill. If not, we do have blow up rafts and air mattresses

Click to expand...

Well at least have a ample supply of sandbags when those prairie rives overflow their banks in the springtime..seems to be a common occurance
must have something to do with those -50C winters. 




Massive solar radiation...... (cant use cell phone, cant call 911) Turn down the heat, to save money? Good thing I have SPF 60 sunscreen

Click to expand...

You're good then. You'll get a nice tan to impress anyone still left that hasn't
been fried to a crisp.




Earthquakes......(used desk or bear suit to protect from falling objects ) ??What the heck is bear suit? [/QUOTE}

It is a total protection suit that you done and look very stylish (sort of like
the "michelin man" tire character you see next to Michelin tires), and that
will ward off any black/grizzly bear attack that come looking for food because
they get hungry after a while when all the game is gone (or not available
anymore because of a natural disaster). It has an offensive odor release
pouch that you can pull to release nasty chemicals (pepper spray?) that will
ward off any bear, hungry or not and spare your arms from getting ripped
off for starters. For that there is Master Card..because the life you might
save with this bear suit..is PRICELESS! 

AND..LAST BUT NOT LEAST..Lets not forget widespread fire and prairie fires!
These will burn/burn/burn for days. Ok, maybe the forest fire crews and the
local volunteer fire crews can contain it, but you just never know what you
may need to fight it when your property and lives are threatened.

a) Source of water is critical..you need water and lots of it..
b) turbine water pump to operate the fire hose
c) Honda generator to operate the high speed turbine water pump
d) fire retardant suit
e) breathing apparatus and oxygen tank ( you don't want to succumb to
all that smoke 
f) Fire boots to keep from doing the "walking over coals dance"

Have I forgotten anything?

Click to expand...

*_


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

_
Ok, but don't forget that you will need an adapter hose to go from the new
style Propane tank fitting to the old style screw on mini-1lb-tank fitting._

I already have one from when I used to camp, so no problems there.

_And you need to get a mini-Genny (the RV kind) so that your kids can still
watch flat screen tv and play their video games..in case of prolonged 
hydro outage of course..like we had in Ontario a few years back (2004). _

Kids don't watch TV very much, and don't ever play video games... my spouse was in the NYC airport going through security when that outage happened, he made it through, bought shirt, and we're not too concerned... we've thought about a generator, but haven't gotten around to it yet... 

_Also, you would need a Coleman 12v cooler that you can plug into your
car battery or an adapter to run off 120vac..hence the necessity for the
portable AC generator. to chill some nice wine, beer and a bottle of
France's finest bubbly...in case you have anything to celebrate....
...and last but not least...a few bottles of that $250 wine, that one would say.."to die for"..._

I do have a car adaptor, and a very tiny cooler. We've actually just been talking about the Coleman 12v cooler for a long road trip, but am not sure if we really need it or not. We figure in an emergency where we're running out of our car, we'll just drive to our cabin in the next province. I'll bring the wine for sure, no need to chill it so that will save electricity. 


_ITEM ------------------- IN THE EVENT OF IT HAPPENING


Sorry to misinform you P.A. But microwaves work on much longer wavelengths
than Beta/Gamma rays from nuclear fallout. While prolonged exposure to
microwave radiation will cook you and cause serious damage and cancers,
so will Gamma rays from Uranium 235 or worse still Plutonium 238,which kill you
immune system "tout suite". 

If the death is that quick, then no more worries... 

tout suite
right away; with all haste. (Pronounced "toot sweet." From French toute de suite.) 

Oui, je compend francais, merci


Have I forgotten anything? 

I follow Paretos rule 80% of the issues will come from 20% of the causes. To get the last 80% is 5 times the effort, and I have just too many other things to worry about that are legitimate concerns (like raising my kids, etc). I guess one could put an underground shelter like in the move 'Blast from the Past' with a 50 years supply of food, oxygen, water, entertainment... etc._


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm not really prepared for any disaster, but there are some important things I've learned. 

I used to have a propane van and I stopped at the propane station on fumes unfortunately it was closed. It was very freeking cold out. We had to wait all night in the van, we couldn't even find a motel in the god forsaken small town we were in. We had warm clothes on but there was no way to stay warm in that van. It was freezing even with snow pants on. 

So basically if travelling in winter take a blanket with you so you can stay warm. You can't warm up the volume of air in your van or car, but you can be snug as a bug under a blanket. 

When I was a kid we would go out in the woods or ice fishing, not sure why but our "emergency supplies" always included a can of tomatoes. You should bring a can opener which we never did. It takes a long time to open a can of tomatoes if you're a stupid kid. I still have fond memories of canned tomatoes. 

Next you should never start a fire under a tree. Trees in the winter are pretty hard to catch fire, but as soon as you start your fire, snow dumps off the tree, which can put out your fire. (Conifer for shelter) 

In the winter it's harder than you think to start a fire. With the snow, matches get wet, and cold lighters don't work. Then you have to find decent wood under the snow and green branches don't catch fire very well. 

In the city I would be in bad shape, my oil furnace won't run with out hydro.

During the blackout, lots of stores didn't even open, their tills and scanners don't work without power. Pizza stores can operate without hydro. 

If you're in a house the water works without power, in a building no elevators or water above the 3rd floor. So it sucks even more if you live in a building.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> I'm not really prepared for any disaster, but there are some important things I've learned.
> 
> 
> I used to have a propane van and I stopped at the propane station on fumes unfortunately it was closed. It was very freeking cold out. We had to wait all night in the van, we couldn't even find a motel in the god forsaken small town we were in. We had warm clothes on but there was no way to stay warm in that van. It was freezing even with snow pants on.


That's one of the reasons, I haven't converted my gas guzzlin' V8 to propane.
I like the savings, especially these days with the oil barons digging deeper
into our pockets each week..It's about $1.30 a litre here and as I predicted
if this crapola (wars/pestilence/floods/earthquakes, sunamis and oh yes..
nuclear disasters)..keeps occurring, it's going to be tough to find a rock
to hide under, never mind a source of propane with no power to run the
pump..
....and with the propane auto filling system, you can't even use a spare 20lb
bbq tank to use in an emergency. What a joke that is!

If you happen to run out of propane..you're SOL.. stuck on the side of the road, until you have to pay for an expensive tow to the nearest filling station. At least with gasoline, you can drain your lawnmowers/snowblowers and carry a spare 2.5 gal approved container in the back (trunk or wherever) and use that to get you to the nearest gas station. 



> So basically if travelling in winter take a blanket with you so you can stay warm. *You can't warm up the volume of air in your van or car*, but you can be snug as a bug under a blanket.


well yes you can "B"..sort of..one of those candles of adequate size in a glass container,(not those crappy tea candles) will raise the temp inside
the vehicle a few degrees..now it also depends on how cold it is outside..
at -10, you would be fine (with a blanket) for a few hours waiting to be
rescued..but at -50 prairie winters, you need artic survival gear.

My little Bro, lives in Peace River AB, lives about 30km from where he
works as an instructor at Fairview college (on motorcyle mechanics). 
In the winter, because the highway is very sparsely driven/populated,
he takes a snowmobile suit, candles, propane warmer/propane cans, dried
food/chocolate bars..not sure about the water..unless it's in a thermos.
Does water freeze in a thermos at -50C windchill? Without this special
gear that he carries in his truck, he could go into hypo-thermia and that
leads to freezing to death. 



> When I was a kid we would go out in the woods or ice fishing, not sure why but our "*emergency supplies" always included a can of tomatoes*. You should bring a can opener which we never did. *It takes a long time to open a can of tomatoes if you're a stupid kid. *I still have fond memories of canned tomatoes.


Especially if you forgot to bring a can opener.  Now what do canned 
tomatoes do for you when hypo-thermia is setting in?? I presume there
is some sort of energy in the tomatoes to keep you warm?...or if you happen to
encounter a skunk, and get sprayed accidently, canned tomatoes, like tomato juice, could be rubbed all over yourself to mask the terrible stench?



> Next you should never start a fire under a tree. Trees in the winter are pretty hard to catch fire, but as soon as you start your fire, snow dumps off the tree, which can put out your fire. (Conifer for shelter) In the winter it's harder than you think to start a fire. With the snow, matches get wet, and cold lighters don't work. Then you have to find decent wood under the snow and *green branches don't catch fire *very well.


What does the boy/girl scout manual say in cases like that, "B"?

Birch bark is generally dry, even in the winter, so you go and find a birch
tree and convince it to shed a little bark to start your fire...or you could
use toilet paper..and I presume that one out in the woods would carry
toilet paper for calls of nature. ...
....and you better have waterproof matches or a lighter, because in winter
time, rubbing two sticks together..just doesn't work..tried it many years
ago. 



> In the city I would be in bad shape, my oil furnace won't run with out hydro.


a small portable AC generator (1kw = 1000watts at 110v) will run the air fan in the furnace and operate the burner control..but you need to modify the 110v feed to the furnace and the min-genny has to run outside, so you need a extension cord of adequate amperage and length..16 guage 3 conductor.



> During the blackout, lots of stores didn't even open, their tills and scanners don't work without power. Pizza stores can operate without hydro.
> 
> 
> > Yes, I remember the big blackout of 2004 in eastern Ont. Right after that
> ...


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