# Tired of bank fees



## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Apparently 100's of thousands in RRSPs and > $50k in cash in chequeings and savings isn't enough for the RBC to waive $4 a month banking fee. They won't budge on it. So I'm looking at moving.

First inclination is BMO because I have another account with them and my mortgage. I'm sure they would love to see all this money come their way.

But perhaps I should give other banks a try? PCF is out, hate them can't get to my money fast enough had enough of their BS and moved to RBC a year ago.

I hear a lot of good things about TD Bank, especially their hours although it is rare I go to a branch to do much and I have a flexible enough job I can go during the day if I really need to.

Any other suggestions?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Talk to your account rep at RBC. I was able to get my fees waived by having 2-3 items in my name. Switching banks [by design] is a huge hassle. Talk to them about getting your fee waived.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

I don't think you can get rid of chequing account fees unless you go with ING or PCF. 

However, you might have some negotiating leverage if you walk into a new bank, tell them you want the chequing account fee waived, and you'll give them all your RRSP and savings. 

It's probably best if you speak with the Manager, the have more say in giving free perks. For example, we were offered a free chequing and annual fee waived of visa at Scotiabank for one year, by the Manager, because of some problems we had. We turned it down, as we are happy with PCF. 

Can I ask what happened with PCF? If you wait 6 months, they will decrease the deposit amount on hold, as long as you don't have any NSF history. Just phone in and ask. 

As far as I know, all banks have deposit hold limits when starting out.

And yes, I think TD is one of the best for service right now.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Banks will often waive single fees on non standard items but are reluctant to reduce or waive chequeing fees as these are computer generated and very difficult to change on an individual basis. As a retired bank employee I don't pay fees but I can appreciate the aggravation they cause.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Jungle said:


> Can I ask what happened with PCF? If you wait 6 months, they will decrease the deposit amount on hold, as long as you don't have any NSF history. Just phone in and ask.


No they won't.
Already phoned and asked a couple of times.
I'm tired and fed up of PCF as well.
They are cheap for a reason.
I have already closed my chequing account that I had opened about 2 years ago.
We're in the process of figuring out how, when and where to move my wife's accounts because she also has a TFSA with these sleazebags.

@ jamesbe - is there a minimum balance you can keep to avoid the fee?
It is usually pretty reasonable, esp. in these times of low interest rates.
Also go up the food chain...all the way to the branch manager if required.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

um, found this on their website in 3.5 seconds. clearly this is a joke thread... no wonder some people hate banking fees. it is so easy to avoid them, yet they can't bother doing so. oh, woe is me.

MultiProduct Rebate
Our new MultiProduct Rebate® offers you a great way to save. If you have a banking account and two or more eligible RBC® products, you could bank for free or enjoy reduced banking fees.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

sprocket1200 said:


> MultiProduct Rebate
> Our new MultiProduct Rebate® offers you a great way to save. If you have a banking account and two or more eligible RBC® products, you could bank for free or enjoy reduced banking fees.


Thank you. Yes, that is what I was referring to. I think I just had to get a new credit card (I made sure it was a no-fee one) and managed to get the fees waived.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

sprocket1200 said:


> um, found this on their website in 3.5 seconds. clearly this is a joke thread... no wonder some people hate banking fees. it is so easy to avoid them, yet they can't bother doing so. oh, woe is me.
> 
> MultiProduct Rebate
> Our new MultiProduct Rebate® offers you a great way to save. If you have a banking account and two or more eligible RBC® products, you could bank for free or enjoy reduced banking fees.


It's not a joke, I have the services. I have an RBC Visa, a chequing a savings, and RRSPs. But Dominion Securities RRSPs don't count. So now I have to open another RRSP account to appease their stupid policies.

PCF was annoying twice I needed money within a few days and was screwed, I like to go to the branch and get money out. I bought a house and gave them 2 weeks and didn't get the draft until the day of closing! Scary stuff.

I'm going to go into the branch today and put 1 cent in a new RRSP for them, they can deal with the overhead, morons.


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## Kim (Jan 10, 2011)

I moved our business bank acct from RBC to TD after getting very annoyed at paying HUGE bank charges with little or very poor service. We don't have a lot of transactions ( 4 dep / mth and approx 25 wthdw) I phoned and asked them if they would like to match TD before I quit - it was comical as the phone answering associate told me "RBC is the best business bank to deal with, your getting your monies worth" Uh right? Give her points for standing up for who she works for. 

Of course I have to keep a min bal in chq acct, which isn't a prob - it was there in the first place, and presto - no charges. We switched to a bank in small rural town and have got to know the staff which makes it a whole lot easier when it comes time to make something happen FAST and EASY. They actually offered to come out to our house to do up the paperwork for some deal or other we were working on. Things can happen with a phone call. 

There are rules but don't think they can't be bent a little for a client that is well known / liked at that branch. Banking in the city was heck.


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

TD's Select Service has many frills if you carry a $5000 balance.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Well they are going to open a TFSA for me, just to get past their silly rules. I have to put $100 in it. Funny thing was when he said I can take the $100 from your chequeing account I said I would rather you take it from my savings. And he said if he did that there would be a $5 charge.

Ugh, so he takes it from chequeing and I move it from savings to chequeing. How silly.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

plen said:


> TD's Select Service has many frills if you carry a $5000 balance.


+1. Yeah, carrying a huge cash balance sucks but I like and typically pay for the "freebies" that come with it. Plus if you have a TDW account, it's nice to have everything in one place.

My experience is that TD is far more responsive than RBC. I found RBC likes to stick to the letter of their rules rather than the spirit even if it is very silly in some situations.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> No they won't.
> Already phoned and asked a couple of times.
> I'm tired and fed up of PCF as well.
> They are cheap for a reason.
> ...


Did you ask why they will not? Usually there is a reason why. Back when I was increasing my hold limits, they said you need to be clean of NSF. Maybe something has changed?


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

I am in love with TD. They always exceed my asks and are super responsive. Mind you I am one hell of a nice guy too...

Seriously being the manager's pal and being grateful is the way to get things and to get things done.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Ok I was really board so I just called PCF...

They said in a 6 month period, there has to be:

1. No negative activity ( NSF and charge back)
2. Minimum one account deposit per month (could be cash, payroll, personal cheque)

If they are still denying you after you have cleared that, I would speak with the supervisor on duty and complain as to why you are being denied.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Jungle said:


> 2. Minimum one account deposit per month (could be cash, payroll, personal cheque)


Yes, that is the reason for our chequing accounts still being subject to hold.
But jeez it's been almost 3 years now that we have been using the account, just not the way they are demanding (i.e. monthly deposit).
There were other customer service issues as well.
These days cheques are becoming less and less necessary so the appeal of PCF is waning, at least for me.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> +1. Yeah, carrying a huge cash balance sucks but I like and typically pay for the "freebies" that come with it. Plus if you have a TDW account, it's nice to have everything in one place.
> 
> My experience is that TD is far more responsive than RBC. I found RBC likes to stick to the letter of their rules rather than the spirit even if it is very silly in some situations.


Agreed that it is alot more convenient to have everything in one place.

You could buy some of their stock to get it back with your dividend payment.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I'm going to have to take a look at TD they seem very good.

It is a huge PITA to switch though but I just did it last year to RBC the banks do all the direct deposit and withdrawal changes for you now which is nice.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> ...My experience is that TD is far more responsive than RBC. I found RBC likes to stick to the letter of their rules rather than the spirit even if it is very silly in some situations.


Over the years I have dealt with all the banks. Typically dealt with the nearest branch to my work location. Scotia had the best attitude, but TD had the best services. RBC was a close second. CIBC and BMO were troublesome.

Recently I had to deal with Bro's estate split between RBC and TD. RBC was efficient and emphathetic. TD tried harder but ended up doing the same as RBC. 

I also have been a Greenline client forever so it is just easier to deal with TD. Plus those branch hours cannot be beat! I had dealt with Canada Trust when I worked in London so it is very familiar.


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

jamesbe said:


> It is a huge PITA to switch though but I just did it last year to RBC the banks do all the direct deposit and withdrawal changes for you now which is nice.


TD has its own service called EasySwitch for such things.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

jamesbe said:


> I'm going to have to take a look at TD they seem very good.
> 
> It is a huge PITA to switch though but I just did it last year to RBC the banks do all the direct deposit and withdrawal changes for you now which is nice.


It can be a pain. If you can wait, I know usually a couple of times a year, they offer an incentive to switch over. Last time I got an Ipod or something. It was a nice one I guess, I was able to sell in on Ebay for almost $200. 

They seem to have this almost every year in the summer, and I think I've seen it other times.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

kcowan said:


> Scotia had the best attitude, but TD had the best services. RBC was a close second. CIBC and BMO were troublesome.
> 
> Recently I had to deal with Bro's estate split between RBC and TD. RBC was efficient and emphathetic. TD tried harder but ended up doing the same as RBC.
> 
> I also have been a Greenline client forever so it is just easier to deal with TD. Plus those branch hours cannot be beat! I had dealt with Canada Trust when I worked in London so it is very familiar.


I was at RBC (my piggy bank bank - opened an account when I was 8 yrs old) and when I went for my mortgage they could barely be bothered to offer me the posted rate. Scotia gave me all that i needed and was happy for a while. However 'to serve me better' they kept closing my branches! I was referred to CIBC and got crappy service. 

TD's managers have been awesome. I had one email me back a 3:00 AM once and I sent an email two days ago - even though he is on vacation according to his out of office reply, I would not be surprised if I got an email before his return.

If I email and ask 'Can I do this?' the response is often 'I have set that up for you it is all ready'.

No complaints in 3 years of banking and 5 years of trading.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

jamesbe said:


> It's not a joke, I have the services. I have an RBC Visa, a chequing a savings, and RRSPs. But Dominion Securities RRSPs don't count. So now I have to open another RRSP account to appease their stupid policies.
> 
> PCF was annoying twice I needed money within a few days and was screwed, I like to go to the branch and get money out. I bought a house and gave them 2 weeks and didn't get the draft until the day of closing! Scary stuff.
> 
> I'm going to go into the branch today and put 1 cent in a new RRSP for them, they can deal with the overhead, morons.


Weird ... before buying my house, I spoke to PCF, TD-CT and TDW to check out limits, holds and what not.

At the end of the day, the delays were that:
a) TDW had a limit on the online transfer - which required a call to get the larger amount transferred.
b) the TDW to TD-CT transfer that was supposed to take five business days took eight business days. Fortunately it showed up on the last possible day to clear the holds.

But yes, down to the wire isn't fun.

As for chequing account options, you might want to check out the TD-CT value accounts. If the services match up, the Value only needs $1K to waive the monthly fee and the Value Plus only needs $2K.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> +1. Yeah, carrying a huge cash balance sucks but I like and typically pay for the "freebies" that come with it. Plus if you have a TDW account, it's nice to have everything in one place.
> 
> My experience is that TD is far more responsive than RBC. I found RBC likes to stick to the letter of their rules rather than the spirit even if it is very silly in some situations.


The comments about RBC remind me of the call from RBC that co-worker received when they were pushing their internet banking package. The sales pitch was "you can do everything for a flat fee". He kept repeating that he lived a block from an RBC branch where the ATM let him do bill payments etc. for free, so why pay a fee for the same service.

I'd have hung up the phone after third "... but you can do everything for this low fee".


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Cal said:


> Agreed that it is alot more convenient to have everything in one place.
> 
> You could buy some of their stock to get it back with your dividend payment.


Good point. TD hit an all time high today.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

yup, i took some profits...


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## canuck1 (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't think I have ever paid even a penny as banking fees (not including commissions and MERs you pay for investments).

I have chequing accounts at TD (I keep $1000 balance) and PCF (zero fees).


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## avrex (Nov 14, 2010)

*TD Select Service is great*



plen said:


> TD's Select Service has many frills if you carry a $5000 balance.


Agreed. TD's Select Service is great. 

Yes, you have to carry a $5000 balance. However, we should all have an emergency fund anyway.

- No monthly banking fees and unlimited transactions per month. 
- no ATM fees
- free small safety deposit box 
- TD Gold Visa card. No annual fee. 1% cash back.
Another thing that I did was cancel CAA Auto Insurance. 
Recently, my car died on the side of the road. I flipped over my Visa card, called the 1-800 number on the back. In short order, a tow truck was towing my car back to my hometown. Once again, free.
- US TD Visa card. No annual fee.
You know the drill. You go down to the U.S, and buy a bunch of stuff and put it on your Cdn $ credit card. You get back home and your bill arrives. It shows all of the US$ purchases converted to Cdn $. The problem with a Cdn $ credit card is they convert it using the current Cdn/US exchange rate plus they charge an additional 1.5-2.0% profit on top of that. It's cleverly hidden in Visa's conversion. Not a lot of money, just annoying that they profit on this.
With the US credit card, the transactions are seamless. So now that you have the US TD Visa, just pay off the bill with your US $ bank account.
- TD Borderless Plan (this is your US $ bank account) Once again no fees for this account.

All of the above probably saves you a few hundred dollars a year. 
I haven't paid a bank service fee in almost 10 years.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

SS is great but a bit over-rated imo unless you are a really heavy user

$5k is a lot to have sitting around unless you use a lot of certified cheques and bank drafts and spend a great deal of time in the States

I thank TD for the bonus $250 for signing up but I'll be downgrading to the value plan that only requires $1k to waive the fees, or use a LOC in conjunction with ING THRiVE.



avrex said:


> Agreed. TD's Select Service is great.
> 
> Yes, you have to carry a $5000 balance. However, we should all have an emergency fund anyway. LOC and/or ING earning interest
> 
> ...


In the end it doesn't save me hundreds of dollars a year. I can get most of the perks for free elsewhere.

I like the concept of being rewarded for having such an acct, but they just don't quite do it imo. I think I'll use that bonus $250 they gave me to buy a nice fire proof safe, and invest the $5000 in some choice dividend paying stocks.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

avrex said:


> Agreed. TD's Select Service is great.
> 
> Yes, you have to carry a $5000 balance. However, we should all have an emergency fund anyway.
> 
> ...


Are yoy sure you don't pay a fee on the US$ credit card? How do you get the US$ into your US chequing account. Agree TD is good.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

A:

1) get US dollars into US chequing account from tdw US investment account.

2) need extra USD ?

- (a) sell part or all of a US holding if appropriate (this will be a taxable event); replace or not;

- (b) sell US options on canadian or US underlying stocks;

- (c) gambit (hard to do in non-registered at tdw if the brotherhood is not giving you the password) (bmo, royal are easier);

3) ask tdw for free unlimited cheque-writing privileges directly on an investment account including US (the brotherhood again.)

square root with your 10s of millions you shouldn't be having to ask such questions 
and 2) (b) is a strategy made in heaven for U 
or else journal a few of your limitless canadian bank shares over to US investment account & sell em on new york for FX no-fee US dollars


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

TD US$ visa, i get it free too with their borderless account. i electronically transfer from ING USD account. i watch the rates and use ING to buy when their rate delay gives me an advantage.

currently, ING USD rate is at 1.000 (1.004 at TD), for the whole weekend, until about 7:00am PST when they wake up and decide to change it...


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Thanks Humble. Don't have any US holdings( don't like the tax treatment).Too complicated to sell options in US$. I do get a good rate when I buy US$ though. Got some last week at 98.77% Paid $9,877 CDN for $10,000US. Mainly for US travel. Keep a US$ chequing account in the US for writing cheques. I think there are some Cdn companies that pay US$ qualified dividends. That would be a possibility. Anyway using our US$ credit card is not perfect because it doesn't pay any rewards which mostly negates the currency savings I think.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Square Root said:


> Anyway using our US$ credit card is not perfect because it doesn't pay any rewards which mostly negates the currency savings I think.


+1 and if you use a USD CC you probably paid to convert the money elsewhere


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> +1 and if you use a USD CC you probably paid to convert the money elsewhere


Right. But for a while we did this anyway thinking we could time our US$ purchases to get good rates. But then the US$ chequing account doesn't pay any interest so we lose that way. What would be good would be to get a decent US$ card that pays a good reward? Then be able to pay it with a US domiciled chequing account that pays interest. Having a US$ chequing account in Canada is a problem because these cheques are often refused by US banks. I understand TD and RY are working on or actually have something like this?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

why are you guys paying any currency conversion FX fees. Quel waste.

if you refuse to learn to gambit maybe avrex & i could set up a charity. For 1/4 the fees of the online brokers - which in themselves are less than the fees charged by the parent banks - we'll gambit your currencies & deliver back to you crisp freshly-ironed dollars in the currency of your choice.

then we'll donate the profits to some charity to be determined by the forum. Maybe 2 charities, one each in eastern & in western canada.


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

Which rewards card pay more than the currency conversion rate? The only one I can think of is MBNA who pays 3% on gas and groceries and charges 2.5% for conversion. But that's just gas and groceries.

Just for clarity, the free Borderless Plan that comes with Select Service offers premium rates for exchange between CAD/USD, I can't be certain of the rate but it looks to be about 1.25%


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> why are you guys paying any currency conversion FX fees. Quel waste.


Because of commission fees on trades? Not all of us are doing this with $47000


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

plen when one realizes that the FX fee for only $2000 is at least $20 or higher, then one quickly understands that gambitting pays for itself on any currency exchange north of 4k or 5k.


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> plen when one realizes that the FX fee for only $2000 is at least $20 or higher, then one quickly understands that gambitting pays for itself on any currency exchange north of 4k or 5k.


Yep, I understand and will do such a thing when the need arises.

Did some more research, has anyone tried http://www.peerfx.com ? 0.5% is their rate. Apparently they were even on Dragon's Den.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

plen do forgive me for motoring forward like an armoured truck but peerfx's rate for 10k is $50.

gambitting 10k costs $20.

and here's the killer. Cheques have to be driven, couriered, bussed, walked, mailed or wired to peerfx, wherever they are. And the new cheque has to be driven, couriered, etc back again. That's 2-3 hours or many extra $ subtracted from your life. Plus they're probably out of physical range for most canadians.

meanwhile, gambitting means the $$$ never leave your investment account. Everything is instant. Online. Effortless.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

plen said:


> Which rewards card pay more than the currency conversion rate? The only one I can think of is MBNA who pays 3% on gas and groceries and charges 2.5% for conversion. But that's just gas and groceries.
> 
> Just for clarity, the free Borderless Plan that comes with Select Service offers premium rates for exchange between CAD/USD, I can't be certain of the rate but it looks to be about 1.25%


Travel reward cards yield about 3%+ as well. The thing is you have to convert the money somewhere, so I pay the CC conversion that is completely negated by the reward whereas you are paying the 1.25% plus holding $5000 for such a privilege

Besides the gambit, which I've never tried, I can convert CAD-US for 0.5% with Questrade or even less with IB. I can also hold USD in ING. Thus I see no advantage to SS, and find it more convenient to use my main CAD CC in the States/Europe


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## Terminator (Dec 17, 2014)

I decided to just bump this thread instead of starting a new one...

Little bit of history of my situation...

I've had a CIBC Chequing account for over 20 years and finally decided that it was ridiculous to pay a monthly fee. Anyways, I went into my local branch and explained the situation and told them that I would have to move to a different bank if they couldn't waive or some how eliminate the $10/month fee. She checked with the branch manager and quickly came back to tell me there was absolutely nothing they could do for me. I was dumb founded. 20+ years as a client, always north of 10k in that one account, and they are not willing to do anything for me to keep my business.

Anyways, after I left and calmed down a bit, I decided I will be switching banks. I have narrowed it down to two. TD or ATB. I hear nothing but great things about TD and their customer service and they have a few accounts that would meet my needs and waive all fees. I don't have an issue parking 2-5k in the account to eliminate the fees. I was pretty much set on going with TD, but then I saw a thread in the Deals section on this forum advertizing ATB's "get $350 for opening a new account". I checked into it, and they have a few accounts that would qualify for this offer and would be good enough for my day to day chequing account needs. This "free" money is lucrative...I mean, who doesn't want some extra cash for opening a new account?

So my question to you guys is, what bank would you go with? I realize a lot of people on here probably don't live in Alberta, so experiences with ATB might be limited. But for me, both banks are literally within 5-10 blocks from my house and I don't need "amazing" customer service since I physically go into a bank maybe 5-6 times per year. I am hesitant to go with PCF or the like, because I like to have immediate access to all my money.

Thoughts?


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

The other option for balance-waived accounts is BMO - their Premium is a a closer equivalent to ATB's "Advantage" account since neither include a credit-card component for the $5000 balance. TD's All-Inclusive includes waving the fee on one of their premium (non-Aeroplan) Visa cards, which for some people provides additional value opportunities. I have the Gold Elite to get free roadside assistance; others prefer the Visa Infinite Travel goodies.

Check out the credit cards with TD and All-Inclusive in case those might be attractive. The other thing would be whether you need a safe-deposit box - TD and BMO's plans include a free small box, against $28/year extra for a $40 ATB box minus the $12 credit. But for $350 cash the ATB looks like a very good offer, especially for a short-term commitment - if it doesn't pan out you could always switch to TD/BMO later.


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## canucked_up (Feb 23, 2014)

Too many transactions for this account? https://www.cibc.com/ca/chequing-savings/everyday-acct.html?int_id=Int-BA-Chequing-Feature-ECA2-E


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## Terminator (Dec 17, 2014)

Thanks for the replies guys. NorthernRaven - I only use one credit card which is with CIBC, and I'm happy with it. I'm not interested in getting a new one and don't want a hit on my credit score from a credit check. I'm just concerned about my chequing account.

And canucked_up, yes unfortunately I do have too many. I actually switched to that account a month ago and became confused when I was charged $10 a month later. Apparently I went over the limit for by 10 transactions. I don't use the account a whole lot for debit transactions, but I do have a lot of pre authorized debits (mortgage, property taxes, insurance, gym membership, etc), which all count towards the transactions.

I still can't believe they can't do anything for someone who has been a customer for over two decades. But honestly, that just makes it that much easier to leave and move on.


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## GreenAvenue (Dec 28, 2011)

DavidJD said:


> I am in love with TD. They always exceed my asks and are super responsive. Mind you I am one hell of a nice guy too...
> 
> Seriously being the manager's pal and being grateful is the way to get things and to get things done.



Me too. I used to be with PCF but moved everything over after I was still on a spending budget of $1000 and had to call in to get more out of the bank (pretty ridiculious when you buy a washer dryer and you have to call the bank in the Leon's store while there is thousands of dollars in the account). PCF has too many managers I think (people in the callcenter) and being with TD (and TDW) is a relief. What I dont' like about TD is that is hard to transfer money and you have to call them to transfer money from TFSA into other funds. But other than that: TD is great!


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

GreenAvenue said:


> Me too. I used to be with PCF but moved everything over after I was still on a spending budget of $1000 and had to call in to get more out of the bank (pretty ridiculious when you buy a washer dryer and you have to call the bank in the Leon's store while there is thousands of dollars in the account). PCF has too many managers I think (people in the callcenter) and being with TD (and TDW) is a relief. What I dont' like about TD is that is hard to transfer money and you have to call them to transfer money from TFSA into other funds. But other than that: TD is great!


I'm with PCF, and have never had this experience, but I pretty much use credit for anything I can get away with. The one issue that I recall was getting a certified cheque for a car purchase many years ago. Had to order this in advance and pick it up at a CIBC.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Guban said:


> I'm with PCF, and have never had this experience, but I pretty much use credit for anything I can get away with. The one issue that I recall was getting a certified cheque for a car purchase many years ago. Had to order this in advance and pick it up at a CIBC.


+1 ^
I've been with PCF for many years. It is a virtual bank, so you need to do your bank account management on a regular basis with transfers from one account to another, but other than that, they are OK with me. No fees on regular banking, and no fees for extra checks..such as checking or LOC. 

They are part of the CIBC banking system, so even if they are a "separate bank" for public perception, they still are bound by the rules and rates from CIBC that actually holds the money you deposit or withdraw from their ATMs. 

I used to bank and have a mortgage/LOC with CIBC, but found them EXTREMELY inflexible and unsympathetic, and they charged me monthly fees. It is interesting that that same big bank has a different outlook towards customers under the PCF (Loblaws) venture.



> Because PC Financial is part of the direct banking division of CIBC, its bank number is the same as CIBC (010). PC Financial accounts are all located under one transit/branch number (30800).





> Most standard bank products (cheque accounts, savings accounts, loans, mortgages) are provided by the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (CIBC).
> MasterCard services are provided by President's Choice Bank, a wholly owned subsidiary of Loblaw Companies.
> Insurance is provided by PC Financial Insurance Brokers Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Loblaw Companies.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

My credit union offers zero fees and pays me 1-2% profit sharing on debt and credits I hold. Outside of trading, I will never use a bank again. Not sure why anyone does really.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ag Driver said:


> My credit union offers zero fees and *pays me 1-2% profit sharing on debt and credits I hold*. Outside of trading, I will never use a bank again. Not sure why anyone does really.


 ... how? Don't you have to pay a membership fee first? Obviously, I'm not a credit-union user but your comments sound like an alternative to greedy banks.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> ...
> *I used to bank and have a mortgage/LOC with CIBC, but found them EXTREMELY inflexible and unsympathetic, and they charged me monthly fees. It is interesting that that same big bank has a different outlook towards customers under the PCF (Loblaws) venture*.


 ... I wonder if bank managers read CMF? :biggrin:


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

I've never paid a service charge nor would I ever do so. I'm with TD and all I need to do is keep a $2,000 minimum balance. (It just went up from $1,000).


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

NorthernRaven said:


> The other option for balance-waived accounts is BMO - their Premium is a a closer equivalent to ATB's "Advantage" account since neither include a credit-card component for the $5000 balance. TD's All-Inclusive includes waving the fee on one of their premium (non-Aeroplan) Visa cards, which for some people provides additional value opportunities. I have the Gold Elite to get free roadside assistance; others prefer the Visa Infinite Travel goodies.
> 
> Check out the credit cards with TD and All-Inclusive in case those might be attractive. The other thing would be whether you need a safe-deposit box - *TD and BMO's plans include a free small box, against $28/year extra for a $40 ATB box minus the $12 credit*. But for $350 cash the ATB looks like a very good offer, especially for a short-term commitment - if it doesn't pan out you could always switch to TD/BMO later.


 ... not nit-picking but I'm with BMO and I have yet to see a "free" small SD box with BMO and they're increasing fees effective May 1, 2015 as checking on their website at the moment. Or is there a special plan you're talking about that is outside of their advertised line of plans for HNW individuals? Can't comment on TD.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... how? Don't you have to pay a membership fee first? Obviously, I'm not a credit-union user but your comments sound like an alternative to greedy banks.


Not sure about Ag Driver, but at my credit union:

It's not really a membership fee... you buy common shares. Where I'm at, the minimum is $1 for your initial purchase. They don't go up or down in value, but they earn annual 'dividends' (in the form of additional shares) based on how many dollars worth of shares you own. My common shares have returned just under 4% in the last couple years. Edit: unfortunately these 'dividends' are taxed as interest.

Then the other part, which Ag Driver was talking about: They pay you cash (in the form of an account credit) based on how much business you do with them - specifically, how much money you held in your accounts and investments, and how much debt you had, with them.

It's actually easy to figure out because they have an online calculator. Chequing and savings is 0.3%, mortgages return 0.2%, loans return 0.35%, and investments are 0.1%.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> ... how? Don't you have to pay a membership fee first? Obviously, I'm not a credit-union user but your comments sound like an alternative to greedy banks.


Pardon me! This is a big difference .... Decimal 1!* 0.1-0.2%*. My apologies for the over exaggeration! At my credit union, Libro, you purchase a 50 shares at $1 each as a member. At the end of every year, I am paid out between about a dollar for every $1000, regardless of debt or credit. So even with my 240k mortgage, I get back $240.00...PLUS my chequeing, savings etc.
ref: https://www.libro.ca/Learn/Library/LibroProfitSharing.aspx

Here are past pay outs:
2007 $1.75
2008 $1.00
2009 $0.90
2010 $0.95
2011 $1.75
2012 $1.25

Here is the catch:
_Profit shares can be held in your Registered Retirement Savings Plan (RRSP) once you reach a balance of $500. They are partially redeemable at 20% per Libro's fiscal year and fully redeemable when you leave Libro, turn 65, or upon death._

Thus is it not exactly a cash back program ... but still will offset any fee's.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^^ + ^ ... *thanks both *for the explanations. Very interesting profit-sharing schemes of credit unions.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

carverman said:


> ... They are part of the CIBC banking system, so even if they are a "separate bank" for public perception, they still are bound by the rules and rates from CIBC that actually holds the money you deposit or withdraw from their ATMs.
> 
> I used to bank and have a mortgage/LOC with CIBC, but found them EXTREMELY inflexible and unsympathetic, and they charged me monthly fees. It is interesting that that same big bank has a different outlook towards customers under the PCF (Loblaws) venture.


Actually .... they are a separate bank, subject to what Loblaws has contracted to their for. It is the same type of deal as the many outsourcing deals for a data centre ... regardless of what used to be in place, it's what's in the contact that the owing company has required.

They can provide all sort of rationale to Loblaws why not but at the end of the day, if Loblaws stands their ground - they risk losing the client.

Cheers


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... not nit-picking but I'm with BMO and I have yet to see a "free" small SD box with BMO and they're increasing fees effective May 1, 2015 as checking on their website at the moment. Or is there a special plan you're talking about that is outside of their advertised line of plans for HNW individuals? Can't comment on TD.


It is BMO's Premium Plan, but checking again it looks like it only provides a $12 discount on a box, not a small one free like the equivalent TD or RBC plans. They do, however, include 5 free Interac eTransfers per month, which TD doesn't. It also looks like with the fee changes in May BMO is taking Premium to $30/month (like TD and RBC), and waiving fees on some of their premium credit cards in the same way TD/RBC do.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Barwelle said:


> Not sure about Ag Driver, but at my credit union:
> 
> It's not really a membership fee... you buy common shares. Where I'm at, the minimum is $1 for your initial purchase. They don't go up or down in value, but they earn annual 'dividends' (in the form of additional shares) based on how many dollars worth of shares you own. My common shares have returned just under 4% in the last couple years. Edit: unfortunately these 'dividends' are taxed as interest.


I believe some credit unions also have different 'classes' of shares. Meridian has investment class shares that pay 4-4.5% dividend.


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## IFITSTOBEITSUP2ME (Mar 6, 2015)

pwm said:


> I've never paid a service charge nor would I ever do so. I'm with TD and all I need to do is keep a $2,000 minimum balance. (It just went up from $1,000).


Wow pwm, looks like we're being fleeced again by TDCT! All our banking is with TD and unless we keep a minimum of $3500 balance all month long we get charged the $14.95 per month in our regular chequing account. We have been with TD for donkey's years and yet they now charge us for paper statements, transactions in our numbered company accounts and worse. For the amount of our business, investments, revenue property LOC's etc they have it actually disgusts us how much they charge us. Seriously if it wasn't for the hassle of having so many accounts, with them, we'd leave them in a heart beat, we feel they've got way to greedy over the past several years. We were attracted to them based on their size and ATM availability initially, and then when they merged with Canada Trust (largest banking merger in history we were told at the time), we were told this was a good thing. Now I just find all these charges are getting way too much. 

When interest rates dropped several years ago to IIRC 2.5% they sent letters out to everyone moving their SLOC rates from Prime to Prime plus .5%, stating they couldn't operate at such low rates! When Prime went back up to 3% did they automatically reduce it back down to Prime, NO, we had to remind them to through our personal banker who agreed with our comments and got it done for us. I wonder how many folks didn't think to watch for that and are still now today paying the Prime plus .5%?

Daughter loves her Servus Credit account more than her TD one. I think when we retire totally we'll switch.


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

IFITSTOBEITSUP2ME said:


> ...I think when we retire totally we'll switch.


By the time you retire you may want to switch to their Plan60 account. No fees.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

they all get you either way... many with TD have $5000 balance to wave fee... that 5000 at 5% BCE dividend can earn you $21 monthly... there is no free lunch


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## travelgeek (Nov 29, 2009)

dotnet_nerd said:


> By the time you retire you may want to switch to their Plan60 account. No fees.


This is no longer offered.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

travelgeek said:


> This is no longer offered.


For once I am glad to be a grandfather. I am just waiting for them to find a way to screw the pooch on that one too. They improved retail service after the TDCT merger. But it has been downhill ever since.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

IFITSTOBEITSUP2ME said:


> Wow pwm, looks like we're being fleeced again by TDCT! All our banking is with TD and unless we keep a minimum of $3500 balance all month long we get charged the $14.95 per month in our regular chequing account...


Interesting ... the last time I dropped below $1K, I was charged something like $3.95 .... I'll have to check for whether the limit is grandfathered or has been bumped up to $2K.


Cheers


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

kcowan said:


> They improved retail service after the TDCT merger.


The depends on which side you came from. I was a CT customer, and the TD takeover was a trip 25 years back in time. There's things that *still* haven't caught up, IMO.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I am not surprised. CT used to be my client when I sold computer systems. Their focus on customers was so complete that they hired front-line personnel into IT. They said it was easier to find people with aptitude and train them on computers than to hire computer techs and train them on banking. I thought it was a brilliant and cost-effective strategy. Sadly, TD has never had such a strategy. So the erosion was inevitable.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Found this thread that I started quite a long time ago as once again I'm up in arms.

RBC changing their fee structure as is BMO. BMO is moving away from their current pay as you go plan. I have an account with $5 in it and don't use it, it's just there so I can see my mortgage balance. They want to charge me $4 a month now for this account as I am a valued customer.... lol yeah.

RBC is changing their fee structure as well. Use to get their $4 account for free by having a credit card and investment account. Now the investment account has to have a minimum balance of $500 and you have to use the credit card not just have it. 

I guess I'll use their credit card to buy a pack of gum 4 times a year and add a few hundred to the tfsa.

Either that or I'll switch to TD


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Don't switch to TD. They are just as bad. If I was not grandfathered into my Plan60 account, I would be shopping around.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

TD are not just as bad in my opinion. You can avoid fees if you keep a minimum balance, which seems that it is not the case at some of these other banks. I looked at RBC briefly when they had a free ipad offer, but there was no way to avoid fees if you just had an account. Unacceptable.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Spudd said:


> TD are not just as bad in my opinion. You can avoid fees if you keep a minimum balance, which seems that it is not the case at some of these other banks. I looked at RBC briefly when they had a free ipad offer, but there was no way to avoid fees if you just had an account. *Unacceptable*.


 ... but management says shareholders are happy so they are happy, no worries. 

I would vote with my feet and take my business elsewhere simply though, just do it.


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## Calgary_Girl (Apr 20, 2011)

Funny that I saw this thread because we've been thinking of going with a no-fee chequing account with either PC Financial or Tangerine and we're currently comparing the pros and cons of both. We currently deal with CIBC and have a grandfathered "Waive" account where they waive all the fees if we keep a minimum of $1500 in the account. I know $1500 doesn't sound like a lot (especially when I read about how high the min. balance has to be at TD) but the fact that I need to monitor the account (and hubby's spending!!) so that we don't fall below the $1500 is starting to irk me. We also have a chequing account at RBC but don't have three qualified products for RBC to waive the $4 monthly fee on that account. 

We're leaning towards Tangerine since I've had a savings account with them for years and have never had any problems. Thoughts?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Calgary_Girl said:


> We're leaning towards Tangerine since I've had a savings account with them for years and have never had any problems. Thoughts?


Have you considered an unsecured LOC? No fees, free cheques, acts as free overdraft protection, you can set-up pre-authorized deposits and withdrawals, etc. I ditched my chequing account years ago. I haven't paid any bank fees for years and I've never once dipped into the LOC. I get tired of listening to these threads when there's loopholes that exist like this. Just a thought.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

When i was renewing our mortgage, i got the best rate from a broker, then asked BMO (our main bank) to match it. They came within 0.05%. I asked them to throw in free banking and they did. Annualized, that beats the 0.05% rate difference. Mortgage is paid off now, but its a collateral mortgage so still on file.
I'll be doing this for the next house and get them to throw in a few more monthly interac email transfers as we use those a lot.


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## Calgary_Girl (Apr 20, 2011)

LOC? Mmmm, may need to investigate that option a bit further! Thanks for the idea.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Agreed: "I would vote with my feet and take my business elsewhere simply though, just do it."

If you are that unhappy with any product or service, why would you stay? This thesis extends beyond banking IMO.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Synergy said:


> Have you considered an unsecured LOC? No fees, free cheques, acts as free overdraft protection, you can set-up pre-authorized deposits and withdrawals, etc. I ditched my chequing account years ago. I haven't paid any bank fees for years and I've never once dipped into the LOC. I get tired of listening to these threads when there's loopholes that exist like this. Just a thought.




synergy i don't use a LOC myself so have no experience with the banking privileges that go along with it.

nevertheless this idea - take out a LOC & make full use of free banking services - comes up from time to time in cmf forum.

it's never received the attention i believe it deserves, though. Instead the majority of folks seem to want to go on complaining about their bank fees!

for the sake of many readers on here, i wonder if you could expand on the benefits of unsecured LOC no-fee banking? 

you've already mentioned free cheques, free overdraft protection (are there artificially low limits on this?), automatic pre-author payments & deposits, etc.

are there any drawbacks? is an unsecured LOC difficult to obtain? what kind of profile/history does a client need to get one? is having the mortgage with the bank enough clout? if a LOC client never borrows, doesn't the bank eventually notice that it's providing services with no reward & cancel the arrangement?

to truly publicize these or any benefits, in my experience it's necessary to repeat the info over & over again. But the idea is appealing & making it better known would be a real service imho.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> synergy i don't use a LOC myself so have no experience with the banking privileges that go along with it ...
> you've already mentioned free cheques, free overdraft protection (are there artificially low limits on this?), automatic pre-author payments & deposits, etc.
> 
> are there any drawbacks?


YMMV ... mine charges for the cheques and I have all that sort of stuff mostly free from PCF so I've never bothered with HELOC except for investments. I'm not sure if it would have been beneficial or not ... but I already had investments on the HELOC when I first saw the idea (which have paid off the mortgage).




humble_pie said:


> is an unsecured LOC difficult to obtain? what kind of profile/history does a client need to get one?


I was given an unsecured LOC with the PCF bank accounts around 1998 so having few debts (mortgage and at times car loan) and making payments regularly seemed to have been all they needed, similar to getting a CC.




humble_pie said:


> is having the mortgage with the bank enough clout? if a LOC client never borrows, doesn't the bank eventually notice that it's providing services with no reward & cancel the arrangement?


Not yet ... I've used the LOC a few times but haven't in years as the HELOC rate is substantially lower. So far, there's statements ever month so I'm pretty sure I could use it whenever.


Cheers

to truly publicize these or any benefits, in my experience it's necessary to repeat the info over & over again. But the idea is appealing & making it better known would be a real service imho.[/QUOTE]


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

but a HELOC is not the same thing as an unsecured LOC, right?

an unsecured LOC might be more difficult to obtain but may possibly offer the greatest number of free or no-fee banking services, as synergy has described.

clarification on how to get one of these? for folks who don't have homes, therefore no HELOC? or maybe a HELOC does have cheque fees or other fees, while a LOC does not?

does an unsecured LOC have any significant drawbacks other than higher interest rates if the consumer does borrow?

if we could sketch in the typical customer profile to which a bank will offer an unsecured LOC, with its accompanying suite of no-fee bank services, then folks would have a good idea what to aim for.




Eclectic12 said:


> ... I was given an unsecured LOC with the PCF bank accounts around 1998 so having few debts (mortgage and at times car loan) and making payments regularly seemed to have been all they needed, similar to getting a CC


however, the world of banks has changed mightily since 1998 so data that is 17 years old would perhaps no longer be meaningful.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

I have a LOC with one of the big banks. 
Free cheques, access to the ABM's, online fund transfers, no fees ...

It was set up over 20 years ago, so I'm not sure about the process today, but I've never paid any fees. Don't really care about the interest rates they charge because I always carry a positive balance (allows me to use ABM's and debit card at will).

Only had a problem with a teller once. Went in to deposit a cheque, and she saw that I had a balance, and accused me of abusing the account. She was quite nasty about it, but after talking to others, allowed me to carry on with my business.

There is no interest for the money deposited, of course, but I never keep a large amount in there.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> but a HELOC is not the same thing as an unsecured LOC, right?


One has an asset securing it with a lower interest rate and one does not with a higher interest rate.




humble_pie said:


> an unsecured LOC might be more difficult to obtain but may possibly offer the greatest number of free or no-fee banking services, as synergy has described.


Usually if one can get an unsecured LOC, then a secured one (whether the asset securing it is a GIC or a house) can be obtained as well.

The LOC I have only gives me cheques for free ... but since a bank as well as savings account were setup at the same time, I had no need to look for anything else.




humble_pie said:


> clarification on how to get one of these? for folks who don't have homes, therefore no HELOC?


No home means no HELOC but does not rule out a secured LOC as my sister used a GIC to get a secured LOC, before they bought their house.




humble_pie said:


> or maybe a HELOC does have cheque fees or other fees, while a LOC does not?


AFAICT ... it varies by financial institution the same as an account where minimum balances waive fees or not, cheques are free or not ... etc. 




humble_pie said:


> does an unsecured LOC have any significant drawbacks other than higher interest rates if the consumer does borrow?


Nothing new that I can think off ... like having an unused CC, the LOC will show up on the credit report. The big thing is the rate.





humble_pie said:


> ... however, the world of banks has changed mightily since 1998 so data that is 17 years old would perhaps no longer be meaningful.


Maybe ... it's credit so where there's history of paying debts, a reasonable income and nothing untoward on the credit history, I'm not sure why there would be a huge change. 


Cheers


*PS*

I noticed that PCF has changed their secured LOC page to refer to using the home as the security. They also list Free unlimited Interac® Debit transactions, bill payments, withdrawals and cheques as well as Free access to your account at all PC Financial and CIBC bank machines.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Guban said:


> I have a LOC with one of the big banks.
> Free cheques, access to the ABM's, online fund transfers, no fees ...
> 
> It was set up over 20 years ago, so I'm not sure about the process today, but I've never paid any fees. Don't really care about the interest rates they charge because I always carry a positive balance (allows me to use ABM's and debit card at will).



thankx Guban & eclectic for all the info.

i think no-fee or lo-fee LOC accounts could be very useful for many big bank customers, who would be able to stop with the bank fees & the minimum balances altogether. Perhaps cmf could encourage an exodus out of traditional bank accounts.

the chief drawback i can think of is that a customer would have to monitor usage carefully. For some customers, it would be easy to topple frequently into negative balance, ie overdraft, which would automatically trigger the high LOC interest rates, i imagine.

of course for our efficient super-well-organized bank clients, such a thing would never happen! but ordinary, messy, crumbling cookies like myself would have to keep rolling the dough with a firm hand, i'm sure.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Guban said:


> I have a LOC with one of the big banks.
> Free cheques, access to the ABM's, online fund transfers, no fees ...
> 
> It was set up over 20 years ago, so I'm not sure about the process today, but I've never paid any fees. Don't really care about the interest rates they charge because I always carry a positive balance (allows me to use ABM's and debit card at will).
> ...


 ... interesting alternative, definitely will start using it as a chequing account, thanks for the tip!


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Update for me from BMO. I talked to the branch manager and they deposited $48 in my account to cover the $4 monthly fee for a year. And said to call back next year again. Okay.

I now need to talk to RBC. You need $500 in a TFSA and an active credit card. They define active as carrying a balance or making payments etc in the past 90 days. I'm wondering if a positive balance would work. Just deposit $1 into my credit card and carry a balance lol.

It might work as I know these systems are all automated and with that positive balance I will be billed monthly where as now with a $0 balance I do not get billed.


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