# Celsius App



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I've been testing and using financial apps and I think CMFers could benefit from this one the most

You can sign up with Canadian government ID (KYC) and stack several promo codes while earning much better yields than traditional banks. You can also take collateralized loans on crypto (rather than selling for a taxable event)

Pros
Very good steady yields - weekly playouts Monday
Good security features - 2FA, whitelisted addresses, biometrics
Reputable team - this app has been around and has customer service by email
Free withdrawals - I've tested them with no issues

Cons
No self custody - tokens are lent out
No CDIC obviously - insurance options coming
No swaps - better to trade on an exchange, this app is more for the yields
Takes 24hrs to change withdrawal address - it's a security feature but I don't like this

Some of the current promo codes that can be stacked -
172616627b (my referral code) Transfer $400, get $50 in BTC after 30 days
STABLE10 Coin Transfer $50 in USDC / USDT, get $10 in BTC after 30 days
STABLE50 Coin Transfer $200 in USDC / USDT, get $50 in BTC after 30 days
STABLE600 Coin Transfer $25K in USDC / USDT, get $600 in BTC after 90 days
ADA40 Transfer $400 in ADA, get $40 in ADA after 30 days
ADA500 Transfer $20000 in ADA, get $500 in ADA after 90 days

You get 8.88% yield on USDC instead of Canadian banks paying 1-2% promo yields. You can also get 8.88% on TCAD. You can also chose to earn CEL tokens as rewards

There's a bunch of similar promo codes for crypto tokens. I basically just farmed the promos to test out the app


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

i'll need to part ways with you here friend. 8-9% is not nearly enough to compensate me for the risk of this investment, i.e., unsecured creditor to a fintech. i dont know how much equity cushion there is nor whether there is any priority / secured debt ahead of me. you can get a sense of their business model by looking at the "borrow" page, but there's still no access to the company's books or insight into their underwriting standards.

if i want to mess around with digital assets i am buying bitcoin and ETH first and then if i want to venture out the risk curve maybe some allocation to competing layer 1s, exchange tokens, defi tokens, maybe even dabble in NFTs for fun (nice avatar btw). in these cases my potential upside is multiples higher and the downside is still limited to 100% of the dollars i put in (assuming not a margin trading degenerate).


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

wayward__son said:


> 8-9% is not nearly enough to compensate me for the risk of this investment, i.e., unsecured creditor to a fintech.


Fair enough

I think you have to be in the app to see the links to blockchain explorers for transparency on the digital assets and transactions. I think we're going to see a lot of these "centralized" front end with "decentralized" back end. I'm getting better yields using DeFi directly with my own keys but I can see why there will be a market for these apps

Just hard to watch everyone debate 1-2% yields that don't even beat inflation before tax


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Something I just don't get. If you can make 8% or even much more with crypto investments, where does that gain come from? Usually, when one investor gains, another one will lose unless they are investing in a company that increases its worth. 

For example, in 2017 when I first heard about Bitcoin, it was at about $1000 early in year, but ended the year at about $20,000. Not even our government can create that much money out of this air.


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

m3s said:


> Just hard to watch everyone debate 1-2% yields that don't even beat inflation before tax


totally with you. ratio of brain damage to PNL seems way off in these debates


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Something I just don't get. If you can make 8% or even much more with crypto investments, where does that gain come from? Usually, when one investor gains, another one will lose unless they are investing in a company that increases its worth.


It depends.

The stablecoins can be used as liquidity for over collateralized loans (unlike your 0% fractional reserve banks, smart contract loans are typically limited to 50% or less collateral) People with say 10-1000x capital gains are happy to pay x% to borrow stablecoins against 10-20% of their crypto collateral to get some inflationary fiat instead of triggering capital gains. There is more demand to borrow stables than to lend, whereas I see CMFers are happy to lend their fiat for smaller yield

Stablecoins can be used as liquidity for decentralized exchanges that typically earn the 0.1%-0.3% swap fees as a ratio of your liquidity provided. This means you earn more the more volume on the exchange and stablecoins typically have high volume. Most people in crypto don't want to hold stablecoins but there is demand to borrow and swap them which means the ratios are good (You probably can't fathom my yields on stables.. not to mention the governance tokens!!..)

You have to realize that these protocols are far more capital efficient than brick and mortar banks. This is what you are probably missing. Bitcoin is an entirely different beast and has nothing to do with this. Bitcoin increasing in value for the same reason gold does. Gold doesn't yield anything rather you pay to hold it and yet people do. Gold and Bitcoin are a bet against money printing. The DeFi protocols yield also have tokens that can vote on the protocols and large treasuries from yields

When I was a kid 8% yield on CAD was the norm and I'm not even a boomer. This is a money forum I don't know why people don't get how you can make 8%..


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

m3S, I really didn't understand much of that. I don't know what stablecoins or overcollateralized loans or governance tokens etc are. So it is all mumbo-jumbo to me and not something I will get involved with.

However, back to my question:. You said.


> Bitcoin increasing in value for the same reason gold does.


I cannot imagine gold increasing in value 20X in 12 months or less. Gold is also something you can buy and store. Or even make valuable products from. It has intrinsic value. Why would I buy a Bitcoin? Just because many others are and the price is skyrocketing? I imagine there is a reason, but not something I can fathom.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

This thread was about getting yield on USDC stablecoins because I know CMFers don't get crypto. I don't actually buy or hold BTC but I'll ELI5 it again anyways



agent99 said:


> I cannot imagine gold increasing in value 20X in 12 months or less. Gold is also something you can buy and store. Or even make valuable products from. It has intrinsic value.


Maybe you should ask the people in Lebanon or Venezuela how gold can 20x vs their fiat or maybe the Afghans can explain it better. The vast majority of gold is stored in vaults and not turned into anything with intrinsic value. Rather it is secured at great expense. Its value is derived from supply and demand because it is finite and scarce unlike fiat.



agent99 said:


> Why would I buy a Bitcoin? Just because many others are and the price is skyrocketing? I imagine there is a reason, but not something I can fathom.


Again this thread wasn't about Bitcoin and I don't buy Bitcoin but I'll try. The reason is purely supply and demand. Like gold it is a store of value against inflation. However unlike gold, no military or government can take it with force or confiscate it. Also unlike gold it can be stored and transported in your mind.

It doesn't really matter if the older generation doesn't value it because the incoming generation does and adoption is increasing with them.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

m3s said:


> It doesn't really matter if the older generation doesn't value it because the incoming generation does and adoption is increasing with them.


Well, I hope the younger generation get to understand this better than us old fogeys. Even my economics professor friend doesn't get it and he has tried a lot harder than I have! He figures it is a tool for those who want their transactions to be untraceable!

Regarding gold, that 2017 20X increase in value was in US$, not Bolivars. Presumably you could have sold $1000 worth of gold in January to buy Bitcoins, then in December sold your bitcoin and bought back almost 20x as much gold. (gold increased from $1150 to $1290/oz in 2017. I still don't get it! But so be it. Enough from me.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Even my economics professor friend doesn't get it and he has tried a lot harder than I have! He figures it is a tool for those who want their transactions to be untraceable!


How old is this prof friend? Transactions can be "mixed" but that only makes them slightly harder to trace.

Digital transactions are far more traceable than cash. Both recent hacks were traced thanks to all the KYC nowadays. Even the silk road guy was traced back to an email account on a forum or something.. The new protocols will have self-controlled ID built in

I'm listening to many podcasts with economists who very much get it. It actually shows how little people understand economics in the first place because markets are markets. Money is only worth what someone will give you for it. Your house is worth what someone will pay for it. That's it

The reason for the explosive growth is metcalfe's law and the debasement of the unit you are measuring in.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

He is retired and in 70s. Has written several books and papers on economics and things like monetary and fiscal policy. Most of which goes over my head,



> Money is only worth what someone will give you for it. Your house is worth what someone will pay for it. That's it


Almost everyone knows that, especially us old codgers. We have been around the block more than once. 

Just be careful. Sounds like you are really into this stuff. Don't let it backfire on you.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Warren Buffet doesn't get it but he also didn't get FANG. Doesn't mean he was a bad investor just from a different era

My computer science profs were far behind the industry that was changing faster than the text book editions could print

People struggle to accept radically new information that is still developing in real time


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Governments and the financial system are jumping right over crypto as a solution to their own solution using the preferred digital fiat currencies.

It reminds me of the rush for dot mobi domain names when smartphones started accessing the internet. Many thought all the corporations and businesses would have to buy a dot mobi domain built specifically for the smartphone platform. They were wrong. The businesses adapted their dot com websites to recognize if a search was done on a computer or phone and render the website accordingly. The result was dot mobi flopped and people lost a lot of money investing in dot mobi domain names. I see the same happening in crypto mania.

_The Bank for International Settlements will test the use of central bank digital currencies with Australia, Malaysia, Singapore and South Africa in an experiment that could lead to a more efficient global payments platform.

Codenamed “Project Dunbar,” the study aims to develop prototypes for a common platform that will enable international settlement in* digital fiat currencies issued by central banks*, BIS said in a release Thursday. The system would allow *direct transactions in central bank digital currencies*, or CBDCs, between institutions, while reducing time and cost, according to BIS._



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/central-bank-digital-currencies-tested-040000941.html


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

You think CBDC will replace smart contract networks and decentralized apps

All this says is they can do digital payments with legacy fiat. That's great. About time. They don't replace existing stablecoins because those are specific to each network. Blockchains monetize P2P transactions of art, music, gaming, experiences, computation, data etc without the need for fiat and intermediaries (or central banks..) CBDC is just a hybrid to the legacy system

Anyways this thread was supposed to be an example of how you could earn better yields on your fiat.

Nevermind - enjoy your 1% negative real returns


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

agent99 said:


> Something I just don't get. If you can make 8% or even much more with crypto investments, where does that gain come from? Usually, when one investor gains, another one will lose unless they are investing in a company that increases its worth.


Well I'm young, and I'm a computer scientist, *and* I worked in cryptography. You're not the only one who doesn't "get it". A lot of this stuff doesn't make sense, even to experts like me.

Our people (not just me, but also PhDs at my last firm) all looked at this stuff, and we basically think it's a kind of convoluted shell game / scam. Lots of techno babble that superficially sounds impressive, but doesn't actually make sense. That's why I don't invest in it.

We even had crypto firms approach our company and ask us to join their ventures in partnership. We analyzed their claims, and rejected their invitation.

When I say this stuff, other young people usually respond and say that I just don't get it. Well maybe, but I am an expert directly in this field (including the cryptography and networks).

It's possible that for some reason, I just don't get it. But if that's the case ... do you really want to invest in something that even experts (like me) can't decipher? That's not a good sign.


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

james4beach said:


> When I say this stuff, other young people usually respond and say that I just don't get it. Well maybe, but I am an expert directly in this field (including the cryptography and networks).
> 
> It's possible that for some reason, I just don't get it. But if that's the case ... do you really want to invest in something that even experts (like me) can't decipher? That's not a good sign.


you have a lot of great stuff on this forum, but you've also been here advising against bitcoin since late 2013. that was around the time of one of bitcoin's early 'bubble' tops, when the price spiked from around US$100 to US$1100, then falling to as low as $300, before its next 'bubble' which occurred in 2017. for you to be vindicated on this call we would need to see an approximately 97-99% crash. not saying it can't happen, but you may wish to consider the possibility that there is more substance to this than you think.

this is setting aside everything else in crypto, and apologies to m3s for completely derailing this thread.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Celcius is good but prefer crypto.com. 12% yields for USDT and USDC. . . 

I prefer more equity related exposure in the crypto space for multi bagger returns.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

m3s said:


> How old is this prof friend? Transactions can be "mixed" but that only makes them slightly harder to trace.
> 
> Digital transactions are far more traceable than cash. Both recent hacks were traced thanks to all the KYC nowadays. Even the silk road guy was traced back to an email account on a forum or something.. The new protocols will have self-controlled ID built in
> 
> ...


Do you have crypto credit card at all(mogo, crypto.com, blockfi)? I get 5% cashback and free netflix, spotify, amazon with the Visa Card from crypto.com


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Fain said:


> Do you have crypto credit card at all(mogo, crypto.com, blockfi)? I get 5% cashback and free netflix, spotify, amazon with the Visa Card from crypto.com


I hear podcast ads for it a lot lately. I know Celsius, Voyager, Coinbase etc will all have debit/credit cards coming

Do Canadians get this or is it the US based Visa?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Fain said:


> Do you have crypto credit card at all(mogo, crypto.com, blockfi)? I get 5% cashback and free netflix, spotify, amazon with the Visa Card from crypto.com


Who pays for the promotions ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Who pays for the promotions ?


Marketing budget. Much cheaper than TV commercials for boomers

Not to mention the savings on brick & mortar, mutual fund salesmen, big bank execs and sky scrapers etc


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

wayward__son said:


> you have a lot of great stuff on this forum, but you've also been here advising against bitcoin since late 2013 . . . but you may wish to consider the possibility that there is more substance to this than you think.


Possible there's more to it, but I'm not a believer.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

m3s said:


> I hear podcast ads for it a lot lately. I know Celsius, Voyager, Coinbase etc will all have debit/credit cards coming
> 
> Do Canadians get this or is it the US based Visa?


It's available for Canadians .I got it. so far got the 3% cashback but upgrading soon to the 5% one.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Fain said:


> It's available for Canadians .I got it. so far got the 3% cashback but upgrading soon to the 5% one.


Hmm they have some very interesting deals now and I didn't know it was in Canada

I think Celsius has been around longer and established more trust for keeping their rates pretty stable. Their team is also pretty active with AMAs and social media

I'll definitely watch CRO though. They are doing a lot of marketing


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Well I'm young, and I'm a computer scientist, *and* I worked in cryptography. You're not the only one who doesn't "get it". A lot of this stuff doesn't make sense, even to experts like me.
> 
> Our people (not just me, but also PhDs at my last firm) all looked at this stuff, and we basically think it's a kind of convoluted shell game / scam. Lots of techno babble that superficially sounds impressive, but doesn't actually make sense.


The industry moves so fast it doesn't surprise me PhDs don't get it yet

I self taught myself to code in high school and my university profs and textbooks were so behind and outdated. It's really only last year you could start to use DeFi and now it's exploding with development. Most won't be able to get it before mass adoption because they can't imagine things change especially if they assume they are experts that already know everything

Trying to apply it to existing professions would be like trying to explain the internet to industry "experts" from the 70s


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> Trying to apply it to existing professions would be like trying to explain the internet to industry "experts" from the 70s


The internet began as an academic project heavily funded by the US government, under the ARPA agency, which today is called DARPA. It was an entirely academic project with heavy involvement by seasoned experts across major universities.

It was founded by *experts*, and under the arm of the US government.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

So how many of those experts used their advanced early knowledge of the internet to build FAANG companies?

I remember many tech experts misunderstanding FAANG business, including pretty much everyone on this board

It's very difficult for most to see emerging tech. The vast majority are not visionaries or interested in what could be


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Celsius has some new ETH promos today

ETH20 $20 after 90 days for $500 deposit
ETH200 $200 after 90 days for $5000 ETH deposit
ETH600 $600 after 90 days for $20000 ETH deposit

You can stack all 3 promos plus 5.35% up to 30 ETH. Those promos make about 18% effectively on 10 ETH

I tend to use Celsius and Gemini together because both have free transfers. Both have referrals as well


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## prisoner24601 (May 27, 2018)

m3s said:


> Celsius has some new ETH promos today
> 
> ETH20 $20 after 90 days for $500 deposit
> ETH200 $200 after 90 days for $5000 ETH deposit
> ...


Seems like the modern equivalent of Amway type MLM direct sales. But instead of a killer deal on skin care products with miracle ingredients sold to friends from their living room, we have sales people promoting in social media and selling discounted ETH from their app. I'm guessing the great returns are not from the underlying value appreciation of ETH but from the intake of new investors. Unfortunately, when the pyramid scheme collapses, latecomers will get burned. 

BTW, I like blockchain as a technology play the same way as IP technology under-pinned the Internet. But don't confuse today's crypto apps, websites, brands and marketing for actual technology. Blockchain technology will come into it's own when real businesses, banks and governments adopt it as a replacement for paper contracts and current SOX compliant financial accounting technology. Who knows what company will be the leader in this space.

Just my .02 ETH


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Who's selling ETH at discount on social media? I'll take some of that

What I posted is no different than the Tangerine and EQ promo rates and referrals. In the US you get hundreds of dollars to open a traditional bank account or credit card. Celsius is actually a legacy model for people who aren't technically inclined to use a blockchain themselves which is why I share it on this forum

There's lots of scams and NFT hype marketing like there is anywhere in a free society. I am tracking the development and all the major US companies are already hiring and developing blockchain integration. Building your own walled garden defeats the purpose but there will be multiple chains optimized for different purposes

Anyways you probably aren't ready for this, but your kids are gonna love it


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm ALL IN, sonny...!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Go for it Jargey.........I will stay at the entrance and hold your coat and the safety rope.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

I want news.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> I want news.


 ... see post 1163 from sags even though it's a day old news. Not sure if the network is different from the app but the name Celsius is there.

Crypto currencies could be a total scam

I doubt there's gonna to be more news on this Celsius thing now that a pension plan has been snared into it. Pension plan details are notoriously hushed hushed. I hope I'm proven wrong here with more news to come on it...LMAO.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Huh? That's not the news. The news is they halted withdrawals. Nothing to see here. Move along people...


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> Huh? That's not the news. The news is they halted withdrawals. Nothing to see here. Move along people...


 ... tell those withdrawing "people" to move along as there's nothing to see there.... and prepare for what they say to you. LMAO.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are going to be investigations when millions of investor dollars are involved, especially when it involves a major public pension fund.

Cypto is highly leveraged and the tentacles run deep into the financial world. It reminds of the derivatives discovered in 2008.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Beaver101 said:


> ... tell those withdrawing "people" to move along as there's nothing to see there.... and prepare for what they say to you. LMAO.


Well I suspect they'll soon be told "there's no money to see here". As for me, I won't even bother with "I told you so". If they couldn't see it from the start, there's no point in trying to explain.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> Well I suspect they'll soon be told "there's no money to see here". As for me, I won't even bother with "I told you so". If they couldn't see it from the start, there's no point in trying to explain.


 ... fair enough but unfortunately, some of the withdrawing folks will include pensioners and then what? Pensioners don't get to make decisions on what's on their pension plan. Least of all, crypto/derivatives. 

If Celsius bellies up, that's an "absolute" dent on their "assets" list. I wonder if the Quebec regulator is working or asleep on this.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Beaver101 said:


> I wonder if the Quebec regulator is working or asleep on this.


I'm not sure the usual regulation authorities apply to the Caisse. It's a government entity, set up by a specific set of laws.

It's worth noting that they also got burned very badly by asset backed commercial paper in 2008. But long term, they seem to be doing ok.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

off.by.10 said:


> I'm not sure the usual regulation authorities apply to the Caisse. It's a government entity, set up by a specific set of laws.


 ... I don't suppose those specific set of laws include throwing dices with their pension plans. I could be wrong as afterall it's the Caisse.



> It's worth noting that they also got burned very badly by asset backed commercial paper in 2008. But long term, they seem to be doing ok.


 ... guess nothing learned. Oh well.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

Since I still don't understand how this all works...
Here's a question: Where is the pain being felt with Celsius Network freezing withdrawals and transfers?

People lending their crypto can't get their assets out. If their assets are in a crypto currency that is dropping, they pretty much have to wait it out / watch their valuation sink (??). (I did find in one article that interest is still being paid however even though you can't withdraw anything.) What if their assets are in a stablecoin? 

It sounds like people on the other side of the trade that borrowed are having their collateral liquidated (at a loss?) since their collateral doesn't have enough value to cover the equivalent value of their loans and they are not able to transfer in additional assets/crypto to increase the required minimum value (??). 

I'm assuming Caisse and other investors in the Celsius business itself are at risk if the company can't stabilize the business and manage the withdrawals which may end up like a bank run?? How secure are the lenders deposits if Celsius goes under? Are they just an unsecured creditor?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Where is m3s when we need him?


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

kcowan said:


> Where is m3s when we need him?


Yup, that's exactly why I revived this thread but he's seen nowhere.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I am not sure why anyone would not keep their coins on a cold wallet like Ledger or Trezor ,when I want cash I will send max $2000 to Coinsquare and sell same day. They are going to hang on to this money indefinitely and some institutional investors bought in at $50,000 a coin. I am a gambler you guys all know this and that is the main use for bitcoin and to avoid taxes for many ,my own friends included lol .Scary times when pensions get into bitcoin lol


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

MrBlackhill said:


> Yup, that's exactly why I revived this thread but he's seen nowhere.


well he seems to have been banned for some reason (anyone know the story??) so it’s a little difficult for him to speak up. 



marina628 said:


> and to avoid taxes for many


this is both morally and legally inadvisable. However inefficient and even repugnant you may find our government and bureaucracies, evasion is theft from your fellow citizens and unless your opsec is truly next level (and constantly being updated), not getting caught will be a matter of luck.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

M3S was banned for some comments in the off topic lounge. He is fairly knowledgeable in this area. The timing isn't good for those that are interested in what is going on with Celsius but are not very knowledgeable. Unfortunately some members get caught up in squabbles which I find to be a detractor to the forum. We'll have to see if he resurfaces after the temporary ban to share his insight. Perhaps someone else can enlighten us in the meantime. I find the whole crypto world fascinating and think what is happening is necessary to shake out the wheat from the chaff. Some believe this will bury crypto but it is not going away. It may or may not have been a good investment depending on when you get in and out but there is a lot of potential for utilization in many areas. Like many things it may take time to reach their potential. There will always be things to distract and derail. Being a good invention and being a good investment are not always the same thing at the same time.


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

Celsius is a company whose business model was taking deposits (in crypto), pursuing what one could generously call return generating strategies in the crypto space and then paying a “yield” back to the depositors. Their risk management was obviously terrible and news is out today that they have appointed restructuring lawyers. 

I imagine CDPQ’s equity will get wiped out but let’s not overdo it — while CDPQ does seem like dumb money sometimes and Celsius was a bad investment, this was likely a vanilla equity stake worth a minuscule portion of their overall assets. Any large pool of capital that invests in a diversified way across public and private markets is going to have a few duds.

For the depositors, not your keys not your coins, and M3S was pretty clear about that early in the thread. Crypto natives know that the whole point of what we are trying to build is to obsolete intermediaries like Celsius. Anyway Celsius has terms of service that clearly say deposits are uninsured, can be commingled and rehypothecated, and withdrawals can be blocked for any number of reasons. This means the depositors should just be a mass of unsecured creditors and expect to take a haircut and wait a long time for repayment. Fluctuations in whatever crypto they had on the platform will be theirs to bear — unclear whether they will get paid back in kind or in some currency equivalent (at what rate who knows). Gox repayment is going to end up taking near a decade but getting paid back in Bitcoin means those creditors are going to have done quite well in fiat currency terms lol. 

If you took a borrow from Celsius it was probably over collateralised. You could pay it back or top up your collateral but why do that if you have no way to get anything off the platform. Probably have to mark it zero and move on with life. 

Today more rumours are circulating that 3AC (a crypto prop firm that at its peak was worth billions) has been missing margin calls. If true the selling will continue, but I agree londoncalling that crypto is not going anywhere. Survivors will come out on the other side of this, those now happily vindicated in their view that this is tulips will go back to being mad — circle of life will continue.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

wayward__son said:


> I imagine CDPQ’s equity will get wiped out but let’s not overdo it — while CDPQ does seem like dumb money sometimes and Celsius was a bad investment, this was likely a vanilla equity stake worth a minuscule portion of their overall assets.


True, we're talking about something like 0.05% ($150M US). Pocket change for them. For an idea of scale, they lost some $40 billion in 2008.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

londoncalling said:


> M3S was banned for some comments in the off topic lounge. He is fairly knowledgeable in this area. The timing isn't good for those that are interested in what is going on with Celsius but are not very knowledgeable. Unfortunately some members get caught up in squabbles which I find to be a detractor to the forum. We'll have to see if he resurfaces after the temporary ban to share his insight. Perhaps someone else can enlighten us in the meantime. I find the whole crypto world fascinating and think what is happening is necessary to shake out the wheat from the chaff. Some believe this will bury crypto but it is not going away. It may or may not have been a good investment depending on when you get in and out but there is a lot of potential for utilization in many areas. Like many things it may take time to reach their potential. There will always be things to distract and derail. Being a good invention and being a good investment are not always the same thing at the same time.


 ... I think he (m3s aka mode3sour) was throwing personal attacks (constantly) at another poster so was banned. Don't know if it's temp or perm. It's unfortunate given crypto is his baby.

What I don't get is why would he teach(?) on this forum when he made 7 figures (or is making that as claimed) in the crypto-world? I'm still scratching my head over this.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Hopefully nobody else has funds in Celsius? I had $3 leftover weekly yield there. They didn't pay my last promo code

The US banned Celsius and other lending services a few months back. This caused a lot of withdrawals. Celsius locked in capital that can't be freed up to repay loans now. People have been watching their transactions on-chain and there has been smoke and rumours that they were over leveraged. Shame because it was a simple platform that is easier to use than DeFi but clearly they weren't very good at managing risk

I posted that I was derisking last September and I harvested any tax losses in Dec. That was an early hunch but the warning signs got much louder this year.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> What I don't get is why would he teach(?) on this forum when he made 7 figures (or is making that as claimed) in the crypto-world? I'm still scratching my head over this.


A little town house with no yard or a condo with fees higher than rent costs 7 figures in Canada today

I have 7 figures from stocks years ago after learning from wiser long time members here who have far more time and success in stocks than me. marina628 probably spends 7 figures for breakfast if she wants and kcowan probably has 7 figures in apple alone, Larry has 7 figures in suncor etc. So I guess you should ask them all why they are posting here as well

Or maybe you should ask yourself why you think 7 figures is a lot. I will pay 7 figures just in taxes if I want to realize gains


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)




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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

m3s said:


> A little town house with no yard or a condo with fees higher than rent costs 7 figures in Canada today


 ... well yeah, it's 2022 and I can't help that "investors" see them gold at the end of the RE rainbow.



> I have 7 figures from stocks many years ago after learning from wiser long time members here who have far more time and success in stocks than me. So I guess you should ask them all why they are posting here as well


 ... should I ask those wiser long time members if they made their 7 figures from stocks included cryto-currencies?



> Or maybe you should ask yourself why you think 7 figures is a lot.


 ... why wouldn't it be? What's the average wage in Canada these days? I don't suppose it's anywhere close to 6 figures, let alone 7 figures.



> I will pay 7 figures just in taxes if I want to realize gains


 ... I would hope so or your "fair" share of the taxes when realized. But then marina628's/post 45 says otherwise with her friends in the crypto business.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... well yeah, it's 2022 and I can't help that "investors" see them gold at the end of the RE rainbow.
> 
> ... should I ask those wiser long time members if they made their 7 figures from stocks included cryto-currency?
> 
> ...


We can see the evidence of intelligence and wisdom

You don't like crypto but want them to pay taxes? Whether or not people pay their taxes has nothing to do with crypto. Asking whether or not they made their 7 figures in crypto has nothing to do with how wise the are. 7 figures is 7 figures unless it's fiat money then who knows nowadays right. After inflation it's just another figure that buys what 6 figures used to buy

If you think Canadian wage are too low you should ask yourself if voting for someone with no monetary policy is intelligent


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

m3s said:


> We can see the evidence of intelligence and wisdom


 .. yes, we sure can see that here. For the records , you brought this "distinction" if not an insinuation up. Read on.



> You don't like crypto but want them to pay taxes?


 ... there's nothing to like or dislike about crypto other than they're synthetic. And for them to be paying taxes, why would they (the fake currency) do that unless you recognize them as 'legitimate' currency.

The reference to taxes is the 'realized' gains from so-called investments you made, highlighted rom marina628's post. So to your next point,



> Whether or not people pay their taxes has nothing to do with crypto.


 ... no, not on the crypto itself that you're recognizing as legitimate currency but the after-effects of the "gains" that you're now seems to be either deflecting or attempting to deflect with that notion. Did you not get paid with legal tender currencies when you traded in your cryto? Or did you get more crypto-back as the gains? Are you able to buy a coffee over THI with that crypto buck?



> .Asking whether or not they made their 7 figures in crypto has nothing to do with how wise the are.


 ... no but you stated what you've learned from the wiser long time members here. So my question is did those wise long time members teach you to invest or trade in crypto in reaching your claimed 7 figures?



> _*I have 7 figures from stocks many years ago after learning from wiser long time members here who have far more time and success in stocks than me*_.





> 7 figures is 7 figures unless it's fiat money then who knows nowadays right. After inflation it's just another figure that buys what 6 figures used to buy


 ... of course, in the crypto -world. And for you to state this so arbitrarily indicate it's "make-believe". The 7 figures must have magically appeared too.



> If you think Canadian wage are too low you should ask yourself if voting for someone with no monetary policy is intelligent


 ... this has nothing to do with my vote nor whom I voted for. There are numerous factors that account for low wages in Canada Far too many to list here but for certain the average wage doesn't come near a 7 figure that I think is ALOT which you think is NOT. And now I get why you think 7 figures is like a drop in the bucket ... of course, in crypto-currency. I mean I can add a few extra zeros to the $1 buck here to get 7 figures. 

Maybe it's time for you to land back on earth ... you know actually getting dirt beneath your runners and breathing polluted air.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm not sure what you are saying anymore but I'm impressed you found the keyboard

We need to keep our wise elders typing and engaged in society as long as possible


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I have made 7 figures on bitcoin over the years but i got my coins from gambling and gambling affiliate income. As I stated many years ago my first bitcoin i paid 3 bux for them and used them for a poker game. There were months i took a break went on vacation etc and came back to 50% profits on my coins. I thought I hit the jackpot when i cashed out most of my coins at $4400that cost me 500-1200 .Then I became a buyer again at $10,000.My friend cashed out 1 million a couple years sent revenue Canada roughly $400,000 when he did his taxes ,a year later they sent him back almost $200,000 determined it was capital gains not basic income taxes so he bought a Lamborghini and cashed out more to cover it. In my own circle i know many who have thousands of coins ,even this month my business will be paid around $60,000 in bitcoin and I hate it because I much prefer to have a bank wire .I have no choice but deal in bitcoin but each time i get paid it is a gamble if I will get it out in time. I believe we will see $40,000 bitcoin again and for that reason I will sit on some coins for now ,if you were working in the casino space like I do you would see how one big sportsbooks payuts to their 6000 affiliates in a month constantly affects the bitcoin pricing ,i have been tracking my own payments vs movement in price in 2 years now. I am not sharing that group the dates etc as I believe bitcoin is something each person has to discover and learn about themselves. In December my brother in law sent me a link from some financial blog saying to buy bitcoin at $50,000 USD ,I told him then to wait til he sees $29,000 because many big players in bitcoin spoke at a conference in Serbia and mentioned that price. These same players said bitcoin will be a dog until October so you should plan to keep til then ,I took it to mean they plan to manipulate things down and then blow it up in October. We will see what happens then,but My advise is only put in bitcoin what you can loose and tie up for a long play ,buy your own wallet so you control your keys.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

BTW bitcoin was suppose to be anonymous and for a few years it was. Then Coinbase had to disclose the identities of all the American accounts .In 2021 Coinsquare has a tax tab and all of this is available to CRA so there is practically no way not to pay taxes on bitcoin when you sell and withdraw it now. Gambling wins in Canada are tax free but I am paying capital gains on the bitcoin profits I have made on sitting on my coins .


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

m3s said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying anymore but I'm impressed you found the keyboard
> 
> We need to keep our wise elders typing and engaged in society as long as possible


 ... so what are you doing here? Being a crypto-currency spokesperson seeking for elderly victims?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

marina628 said:


> BTW bitcoin was suppose to be anonymous and for a few years it was.


Yes and no.
Bitcoin is about as anonymous as a phone number or IP address.



> Then Coinbase had to disclose the identities of all the American accounts .In 2021 Coinsquare has a tax tab and all of this is available to CRA so there is practically no way not to pay taxes on bitcoin when you sell and withdraw it now.
> Gambling wins in Canada are tax free but I am paying capital gains on the bitcoin profits I have made on sitting on my coins .


I don't see the problem, if you make a taxable transaction, you should pay the applicable taxes.
The practical way to not pay taxes is the same as any other transaction, just break the law and don't pay the taxes you owe.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... so what are you doing here? Being a crypto-currency spokesperson seeking for elderly victims?


Who started this thread pumping the Celsius app ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Some people are looking pretty foolish now and talking gibberish. 

Michael Saylor of MicroStrategy claims he hasn't lost anything on his bitcoins because he hasn't sold any.

I think most investors think $1 billion in "unrealized losses" is an important metric.

Amazing how many public figure pumpers of crypto are now claiming they sold everything just in the nick of time, when a week ago they were still pumping.

When the regulators peel back the layers of the onion.......it is going to be rotten inside.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are 497 threads on CMF with content for "bitcoins".

Crypto has had a lot of discussion on CMF.

It is interesting to look back to view the discussion and debates over the years.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

marina628 said:


> Then I became a buyer again at $10,000.My friend cashed out 1 million a couple years sent revenue Canada roughly $400,000 when he did his taxes ,a year later they sent him back almost $200,000 determined it was capital gains not basic income taxes so he bought a Lamborghini and cashed out more to cover it. In my own circle i know many who have thousands of coins ,even this month my business will be paid around $60,000 in bitcoin and I hate it because I much prefer to have a bank wire .I have no choice but deal in bitcoin but each time i get paid it is a gamble if I will get it out in time. I believe we will see $40,000 bitcoin again and for that reason I will sit on some coins for now


That's crazy the CRA sent $200k back. They're probably just happy he filed like a good boy

I filed what I sold off last year as capital gains however due to the volume I figure they will want me to refile as income. There is no way to know because the rules are so vague. I already have more income from crypto this year than salary even in a bear market so I imagine at this point it's clear I will need to file as business income.

I've heard the gambling industry used as an example of what happens when the government tries to outlaw something based on some kind of moral superiority. People still like to gamble even if the US government said it's bad mmkay. So in the end they just lost all the tax revenue because the business and money went elsewhere

So did you have to structure your multi-million gambling businesses from off-shore islands? Is that why the profits come in BTC? Does Canada lose out of tax income because of this? What do you think about the US banning online gambling and whether it made sense? Do you think Canada should ban crypto to protect us like sags wants?

Do you know any good business tax planners? I think I need to structure an online business I don't see why I would domicile a digital business in Canada?


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

m3s said:


> That's crazy the CRA sent $200k back. They're probably just happy he filed like a good boy
> 
> I filed what I sold off last year as capital gains however due to the volume I figure they will want me to refile as income. There is no way to know because the rules are so vague. I already have more income from crypto this year than salary even in a bear market so I imagine at this point it's clear I will need to file as business income.
> 
> ...


My business is advertising and marketing , Online casinos are some of my clients but not exclusively. I have been doing this work for 16 years and pay all taxes but I am also a very good poker player tooYes in 2006 supposedly the USA was over for online gambling but things like bitcoin ,gift cards kept that alive. I only have businesses in Canada and pay all my taxes here ,I have Canadian friends who moved to Cayman Islands and even with 2% taxes they missed living in Canada so money and saying taxes is not everything. I think we are all adults and should make out own decisions on bitcoin but I would never recommend it or pump it ,that is why almost every thread when i mention it I point out I am a gambler but also I have enough money saved for myself and my kids I can afford the risk. I have my own tax planner ,accountant and Lawyer but rather not recommend them in a forum ,there are plenty out there .I have employees ,office and we have done live event planning for our clients so my business is not solely focused online .Any accountant can help you set up books ,I sold assets of my original business a few years ago but had to take 3 years off because of the non-compete clause. Presently I have 38 clients under my current business ,I have no idea if you have employees ,what clients and services you have so cannot advise you on that. BTW bitcoin comes from 2 sources some casinos/poker rooms pay their invoices in Bitcoin ,we have a Coinsquare account for our business and it is same as if we get wire as we withdraw to the bank and pay all taxes on it .#2 the second is personal gaming , I deposit and withdraw in bitcoin and have for a few years .We got clarification from our accountant and CRA before we accepted our first bitcoin fir our business which is a federal corporation BTW .We pay all taxes on it as earned income ,if they pay me at 4am when I am sleeping and I make $100 I declare it right to the penny .


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A handful of people making money from crypto is not a revelation for most people. That is exactly what happens in ponzi schemes, pyramids and frauds.

It is all based on the "greater fool theory" and after the recent collapses in Luna and Celsius, crypto is running out of fools with money.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> It is all based on the "greater fool theory" and after the recent collapses in Luna and Celsius, crypto is running out of fools with money.


Luna and Celsius were both entirely centralized and under-collateralized. They both paid too much yield and instead of de-risking and adjusting to market conditions they both became insolvent when their collateral declined

The only reason Canada and the US didn't collapse recently is that they can print infinite fiat money and bring in or hire cheap labour from around the globe. It's all a ponze scheme sags. Your pension is paid by new people on the bottom


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

marina628 said:


> Presently I have 38 clients under my current business ,I have no idea if you have employees ,what clients and services you have so cannot advise you on that.


That's impressive stuff. I don't have any employees or clients

I just have a lot of volume and taxable events because even stablescoins are considered a taxable trade. The CRA websites doesn't make it any clearer

Basically says if you were trading regularly to make a profit it's a business but if it was without knowledge or plan to make profit it's a capital gain


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

m3s said:


> I don't have any employees or clients
> 
> I just have a lot of volume and taxable events because even stablescoins are considered a taxable trade. The CRA websites doesn't make it any clearer
> 
> Basically says if you were trading regularly to make a profit it's a business but if it was without knowledge or plan to make profit it's a capital gain


Yeah bitcoin is only 10-15% of our revenue and it is payment of services ,media buys ,live events ,conference expenses etc ,very small CPA amounts from the affiliate websites we own. The bulk of it is client consulting ,content services ,PPC management etc and these all pay bank wires ,Cheques etc.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

wayward__son said:


> i'll need to part ways with you here friend. 8-9% is not nearly enough to compensate me for the risk of this investment, i.e., unsecured creditor to a fintech


Smart move. You applied sound logic!

Indeed, if Celsius or another one of these exchanges/platforms collapses, the crypto koinz might be seized during bankruptcy proceedings by creditors. This happens because there are no regulations in this area which protect client assets.

Lack of regulation = wild west = asking for trouble.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Lack of regulation = wild west = asking for trouble.


The US actually did step in an regulate Celsius.

They made it illegal for americans like everything else related to crypto including airdrops (so most airdrops don't go to US IP addresses) Obviously Celsius lost a lot of assets during that time, including a relatively small amount from me

They have too much assets locked up. Sounds like they're being helped by another exchange now.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Have all conservative leaders lost their minds ?

Alberta Premier Jason Kenney announced Alberta is rolling out the welcome carpet to FTX crypto exchange, which is operated by Sam Bankman-Fried, the guy interviewed in the link posted below......who perfectly describes crypto yield farming as a huge ponzi scheme.

_“We want to position Alberta at the forefront of emerging technologies and industries in Canada. FTX launching in Calgary will help further grow our reputation and our opportunities in technology and innovation, specifically in blockchain technology. This is great news for further growth of our fintech sector and further diversification of our economy.”_

Honourable Doug Schweitzer, Minister of Jobs, Economy and Innovation
_“We are delighted to enter the Canadian marketplace and continue to expand FTX’s global reach. Our expansion into Canada is another step in proactively working with cryptocurrency regulators in different geographies across the globe.”_

Sam Bankman-Fried, CEO of FTX
The explanation of yield farming is quite entertaining but it is baffling why an exchange that provides access to this crap is welcome in Alberta.

*Sam Bankman-Fried Described Yield Farming and Left Matt Levine Stunned*

_One takeaway from this whole conversation is that DeFi might be more similar to Bitcoin than a lot of people thought, deriving its value from collective agreement that the ‘thing’ (in this case the box, or yield-farming protocol) is worth something rather than deriving value from a fundamental usefulness. _





__





Bloomberg - Are you a robot?






www.bloomberg.com


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Let's hope this disease doesn't spread to the Ontario's Cons heads. 

Btw, that's called "Innovation" by the geniuses out there. LMAO.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

At least tulips look pretty for awhile and smell nice.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Crypto’s latest meltdown leaves individual investors bruised and bewildered



> _TOM WILSON, ELIZABETH HOWCROFT, NUPUR ANAND AND ECE TOKSABAY, Globe and Mail June 20, 2022
> 
> 
> For Jeremy Fong, U.S. crypto lender Celsius was an ideal place to stash his digital currency holdings - and earn some spending money from its double-digit interest rates along the way.
> ...


 ... deja vu altogether.

I wonder if their "peers" will be shedding a tear for them. 

Putting groceries $ into crypto ... how about doing a few hours of honest OT instead? I admit the latter is alot harder than making magical money.

And then there's the other deluder of his cryto still being in "positive territory".

And now these "investors" want regulations or more regulations all of a sudden. So laughable ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Their peers blame the victims and mock them with slogans like........"no keys no crypto". There is very little empathy in the criminal crypto world.

Cryto fixes problems we never had.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Lack of regulation = wild west = asking for trouble.


Overregulation = no innovation which is also bad.

My opinion is that you should be as free from regulation, insofar as you're willing to take responsibility for the outcome.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Alberta Premier Jason Kenney announced Alberta is rolling out the welcome carpet to FTX crypto exchange, which is operated by Sam Bankman-Fried, the guy interviewed in the link posted below......who perfectly describes crypto yield farming as a huge ponzi scheme.
> 
> _“We want to position Alberta at the forefront of emerging technologies and industries in Canada. FTX launching in Calgary will help further grow our reputation and our opportunities in technology and innovation, specifically in blockchain technology. This is great news for further growth of our fintech sector and further diversification of our economy.”_
> 
> Honourable Doug Schweitzer, Minister of Jobs, Economy and Innovation


Same Bankman-Fried was the 2nd largest donor to President Biden's campaign and doesn't like DeFi because he prefers centralized things like Solana that he can control. Rumour is he's been bailing out and taking control of a lot of crypto things lately maybe even Celsius

He's like the Larry Fink of crypto - FTX is dominating everything like Blackrock. He's also doing a lot of lobbying in the White House and apparently Alberta. While Honourable Doug Schweitzer appears to be an extremely bright young non-boomer for a politician he has the wrong guy


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

One crypto analyst described "defi" as a "majoritocrisy"......where those with the most coins control everything.

It sounds overlaying a fiat system that favors the wealthy onto cryptocurrencies and blockchains.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

President Biden has not aged well in the Presidency, and should step down before he falls off his bike one too many times.

He perfromed a great patriotic service by defeating Trump, but it is time for him to retire and bask in the praise of a job well done.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ So then who will take over his post? In fact, I haven't heard much of what VP K. Harris is responsible for these days.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> *One crypto analyst described "defi" as a "majoritocrisy"*......where those with the most coins control everything.
> 
> It sounds overlaying a fiat system that favors the wealthy onto cryptocurrencies and blockchains.


 ... figures.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Who knows what the VP is doing these days. She has disappeared into the vast unknown.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

m3s should start an honest crypto exchange, maybe guaranteed 100% with gold bullion reserves.

Levy sufficient transaction fees to pay all the operational expenses.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> One crypto analyst described "defi" as a "majoritocrisy"......where those with the most coins control everything.
> 
> It sounds overlaying a fiat system that favors the wealthy onto cryptocurrencies and blockchains.


There are all different kinds of systems going on sags. You don't seem to grasp the concept that crypto is more than 1 single thing or concept. It's like when people say "stocks are gambling" it shows they have no concept of what stocks are in the slightest

There's a lot of talk about using quadratic voting where smaller wallets would be weighted proportionally higher to balance the whales. Problem is then there is no incentive to buy as something has value because it gives some sort of power/control

We all know you dream of communism and socialism but unfortunately it never seems to work anywhere. Even short lived CERB and stimulus checks seemed to cause unintended consequences to the economy in such a short time

Maybe there is a better balance between capitalism and communism. All the different cryptos with different distributions and voting structures are like individual monetary experiments. Maybe one of them will find a balance that can't be gamed (will require much better DID which is coming)

Either way I don't think you'll get it so might as well stop concerning yourself with it. Keep dreaming of UBI I'm sure it will solve all the world's problems without any inflation or unintended consequences. Russia is still around after all


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Perhaps the crypto platforms and concepts should work out all their problems before they start collecting investor cash from the public.

Trapped in the middle of a crypto crisis doesn't seem the optimum time to be experimenting with internal governance protocols and procedures.

It certainly doesn't convey any level of trust or confidence in the protocols to possible future investors.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Perhaps the crypto platforms and concepts should work out all their problems before they start collecting investor cash from the public.


You realize this concept exists outside of crypto right?

Crypto critics constantly show how little they understand existing markets

If you don't have funds to put in risky ideas then worry about your GICs rates


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don’t play in the kindergarten sandbox.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

FP article on what apparently went on and the challenges behind the scenes at Celsius.









Inside Celsius: One of crypto's biggest lenders having a 'Lehman Brothers moment'


Former employees and internal documents suggest a reckless pursuit of high returns put Celsius in a poor position to ride out this year's market turbulence. Read more here




financialpost.com


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

milhouse said:


> FP article on what apparently went on and the challenges behind the scenes at Celsius.


I didn't read the article in fill but I've read the claims from people on twitter who are also sharing the court documents

Sounds to me like the older CEO didn't understand how things in crypto work such as impermanent loss that don't exist in trad fi and didn't heed advice. Celsius CEO by the way created VoIP so he is probably more tech savvy than financial

I was fully withdrawn except for leftover weekly yield. Not because I knew what was coming but because it's not worth the risk after the promos. Voyager I did see coming and warned several americans to withdraw just in time. They gave a huge hint by lowering withdrawal limits while seeking funds

Not your keys not your crypto once again.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

First comes the SEC and IRS to build the case and then come the criminal prosecutors to arrest and send them to prison.

Bernie Madoff was an amateur compared to these crypto scam artists.

I am always surprised by the arrogance of these people who think they can steal billions, walk away, and get to keep the money by pleading ignorance.

I wanted millions so I stole some.

I fought the law but the law won.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Did you see sleepy Joe fall off his bike?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Celsius declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy last night. A judge will determine if depositors are secured or unsecured creditors.

They have 100,000 creditors......owed tens of millions or small retail customers.

They estimate their liabilities between $1 billion and $10 billion. More entanglements are thought to be uncovered in the bankruptcy process.









Crypto Lender Celsius Files for Bankruptcy After Cash Crunch


Cryptocurrency lender Celsius Network Ltd. filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the latest casualty of a $2 trillion crash that has wiped out some of the industry’s biggest names and exposed hundreds of thousands of individual investors to steep losses.




www.bloomberg.com


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