# Why do we have to file a tax return?



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Saw this on the NP site:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...scape-heres-why-it-doesnt-need-to-be-that-way

I recall PAYE when I was in UK years ago(even although I did not pay taxes) Makes sense. It would require elimination of all those quirky rebate schemes like transit costs and kids dance lessons or whatever.

Can't imagine it happening here, but perhaps it should.


----------



## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

because the government requires funding in installments or else it wouldn't be able to function. the taxes you pay off your paycheque etc are all estimates based on salary. you file a tax return to establish if you earned more or less and it determines whether or not you pay more or less taxes at the end.

we are pretty much at a PAYE, but the tax return is more for the aftermention point. and tbh if you are getting services from the government i believe the government has the right to have information on you - the goal of the CRA and tax act is to be fair.


----------



## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

No more transit pass credit starting July 2017

The children's fitness tax credit, including the supplement for children with disabilities, will be eliminated for 2017 and later tax years.

Do you work with liberals?


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

redsgomarching said:


> you file a tax return to establish if you earned more or less and it determines whether or not you pay more or less taxes at the end.


Seems to me we file a tax return and then CRA runs it through their computer and says whether we got it right or wrong! All those other countries get by without taxpayers actually having to file a return. Guvmint just send out a statement and just like your Visa bill, you get to say if it is right or wrong, rather than other way round.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

cashinstinct said:


> Do you work with liberals?


If I did, we would be getting rid of the tax returns and saving Canada $7Billion a year 

BTW, do Liberal employees read the NP


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> All those other countries get by without taxpayers actually having to file a return


 In Israel no one should file any taxes, all calculated automaticallythrough the system. 
For example, you get automatically credits for children and it's up to you how to spend it...for dancing or for eating .... much more fair than stupid Liberal Canadian system


----------



## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> In Israel no one should file any taxes, all calculated automaticallythrough the system.
> For example, you get automatically credits for children and it's up to you how to spend it...for dancing or for eating .... much more fair than stupid Liberal Canadian system


gibor365, I have repeatedly read derogatory comments about Canada from you on this forum. Two questions:
1. What are you doing to change the things you dislike about Canada? 
2. If you are so unhappy here, and Israel is so wonderful, why don't you move there?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

heyjude said:


> gibor365, I have repeatedly read derogatory comments about Canada from you on this forum. Two questions:
> 1. What are you doing to change the things you dislike about Canada?
> 2. If you are so unhappy here, and Israel is so wonderful, why don't you move there?


1. Voting Conservatives and agitaing against Liberals and promoting flat tax system and cancelation of filing tax returns.
2. After paying for 18 years ridiculous taxes, no way I gonna leave. Gonna get all IE I'm eligible, CPP and OAS. 
My mistake that I believed too much Canadian PR.



> the goal of the CRA and tax act is to be fair.


 the goal of CRA to keep everyone on the hook as they can do whatever they want, it's government within government.

No way they voluntary will change anything in their systen as thousands of government employees working there and getting huge benefits.
and the real question is "Why do we have to file a tax return?" if everything can be done automatically?! Hence this is crazy! There are more than 50 different tax form.... and if you have any question in interpretation of some of the tax forms and call CRA, they like parrots will read yo same **** that you can read online without giving any explanation, as they don;t understand it by themselves...


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm curious how the government would know "automatically" what is the correct amount of taxes to pay...but then again, I'm not a "standard" tax return either.

Not that I'm complex, but I have multiple income streams and I probably put much more into the economy than most tax payers.

I also understand why the government gives tax deductions for people like me who invest in society by creating jobs, providing housing, buying products as well as spending on my family, and not for paycheque people who usually spend on their own family alone. If I and my companies had to pay an automatic tax, I'm sure my customers wouldn't be happy, nor my tenants, nor my employees, contractors, etc. as I'd most likely have to pass on the costs to them, or cut.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> but then again, I'm not a "standard" tax return either.


 In such case people like you should fill out taxes . In Israel only people whohave their own business are filing taxes ... If you are working for somebody (even in 5 different jobs), all taxes are deducted automatically and in the YE you may get some refund (as I got because quit my job in September or so). Revenue agency knows exactly what is your salary, interest income, how many kids you have, when you served in army and so on... There is no any problem with it.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> > I also understand why the government gives tax deductions for people like me who invest in society by creating jobs, providing housing, buying products as well as spending on my family, and not for paycheque people who usually spend on their own family alone.


On the other hand you should know that there are thousands fictitious businesses .... I got 1st lesson after 1 or 2 weeks in Canada, in ESL school , when secretary was fictitious consulting business, where she writing off restaurans, LCBO, gas etc , declares losses for 3 years and then changing company name/business line and starting again.... I thought right away, what the f&cking system is it?! When I was filing taxes with some accountant, he practically was pushing us to open fictitious business, telling that everyone doing it and we're stupid that missing such opportunity... and somehow I'm sure that people who has valid businesses ofter have more issues with CRA than those with fictitious ones (as they were taught exactly how to do it).


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So, because someone is a crook, we should punish everyone?

Gee, I guess we're all going to jail then.

It's the same on the other side of the coin, governments waste money all the time, their solution, raise taxes. Should we not pay them then, even though there are some benefits from government programs?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> So, because someone is a crook, we should punish everyone?


 I don't tell to punish everyone, but tracking should be better. There is always 2 sides of the coin.

The point is, for regular employees, who are majority in Canada, filing taxes can be easily ommited, credits to be cancelled and tax brackets lowered accordingly... in this case army of CRA crerks amd auditors can be significantly cut and less money wasted...

Even though the best solution would be flat tax rate, 90-95% CRA employees can be laid off , a lot of money saved, but it never gonna happen as CRA is too strong organization..



> governments waste money all the time, their solution, raise taxes.


 government should be more accountable for wasting money... now they think that they have cart-blansh to spend whenever they want, to increase debt etc... just look at those clowns Wynne and Just


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> In Israel no one should file any taxes, all calculated automaticallythrough the system.
> For example, you get automatically credits for children and it's up to you how to spend it...for dancing or for eating .... *much more fair than stupid Liberal Canadian system*


I OTOH, as a low income disabled senior citizen disagree. I find that even if the gov'ts on 3 levels (Fed, Prov and Municipal) deduct monthly taxes from my pension income. 
I file and get a SUBSTANTIAL rebate of my taxes paid with my DTC and other deductions I am allowed under the current Canadian Tax system.

I even get monthly rebates from the Provincial govt for HST as well as Quarterly Federal rebates for HST.
I also get one lump sum from the Provincial gov't every year after filing my taxes, to help compensate for my property taxes every year.

*I control how much rebate I get back on my taxes* from filing every year. 

My friend, born in the Ukraine , immigrating to Israel back in the late 90s, came to Canada a few years
ago, now a Canadian citizen, being disabled due to stroke (brain injury) and living on ODSP + CPP disability, agrees with me that Canada, (even with it's tax system), is still better than Ukraine/Russia or Israel.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Well, the government does automatically deduct what they feel is appropriate taxes from paycheque people. However, after filing a tax return here, from what I understand, most people get money back from overpaying...

I guess in Israel it's better. If people overpay, it's no big deal that they overpayed no one is the wiser and the government gets the extra.

Now, I'm sure the government of Israel is much smarter than the Canadian government and never overestimated how much their citizens should pay...or maybe they are just smarter in the fact that they don't have a system in place for its citizens to know that they've been overpaying.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Canadian tax system is good by any means, but the idea of not having a way to check up on what the government thinks is fair is rather scary. It's too easy for governments to just take more for "the good of the country".


----------



## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

gibor what you are describing that 1 person did is legal and now has been addressed in the tax act as PSB. that person probably won't be doing that anymore.
there has been a lot of progress on the issues you have mentioned to ensure that people aren't just creating corps for the sake of sbd, lower tax rate etc.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

As I recall, the latest budget had an increased budget for CRA to find more money owed (as determined by the government). Much better use of tax dollars than looking for waste. After all, were all criminals trying to avoid paying our fair share.

Want proof? Do you still have money in your pocket? Better not check, you'll incriminate yourself.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> However, after filing a tax return here, from what I understand, most people get money back from overpaying...


The point that in israel in normal circumstances no one is overpaying . As I mentioned, if you stop working before year end and you annual income is less then anticipated, you will get refund.
In any case , all taxes are reported on pay stabs and if you find something incorrect, you just call revenue agency and they adjust. 
Just an example, every immigrant gets special tax credits (again automatic) for 3 years, if you serve in army, those 3 years period is extended. In my case, they forgot to extend my credits by 1 year, it was enough to make 1 call that everything got adjusted.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> My friend, born in the Ukraine , immigrating to Israel back in the late 90s, came to Canada a few years
> ago, now a Canadian citizen, being disabled due to stroke (brain injury) and living on ODSP + CPP disability, agrees with me that Canada, (even with it's tax system), is still better than Ukraine/Russia or Israel.


 Definetely better than Ukraine, I supposed that better than in Russia for sick, retired, low income or unemployed. Doubt that it's better than in Israel, more correct to say, it's better in some things and worse than in others.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> I guess in Israel it's better. If people overpay, it's no big deal that they overpayed no one is the wiser and the government gets the extra.


I really don't know anything about Israel's system. But UK, NZ, AUS, Seden & others have a PAYE system in which taxpayers do not have to file a tax return.

The only difference I see, is that at the end of the year, the government (CRA in our case) would calculate an individuals taxes. They would use the data they collect from employers, other govt departments, banks, brokerages etc. They would send us their calculations as well as an account of what we still owe or what we will receive as a refund. If we do not agree or if we have other information, we then get back to them and our taxes are adjusted. 

In a large % of cases, the original tax calculation will be correct and taxpayers don't have to do anything. Eliminates a wasteful double effort and will save us billions of dollars. Surely that is a good thing? Countries much like Canada have done it successfully, so why not Canada?

We should move toward simplifying our tax systems. This is a win-win proposal. If we reduce the costs of collecting taxes, we reduce the taxes we have to pay and/or the government will be able to use tax revenue more efficiently. 

There was a discussion of this on NP: http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/why-canada-should-simplify-taxes


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I really don't know anything about Israel's system. But UK, NZ, AUS, Seden & others have a PAYE system in which taxpayers do not have to file a tax return.


 I'm on opposite, never lived in UK, NZ or Aus, but know very well tax system in Israel .
I just don't get why everyone here should file taxes if government has all required info.
Just one example from last year...CIBC didn't send me T5, I called , 5 times went to the branch and had discussions with branch mamager... She was telling me that she send request for T5 to department that dealing with it, but they don;t give her any reply . What the [email protected]?! After I spend a lot of time requesting my T5, I got it, but they mixed up Primary and Secondary beneficiary and wrote wrong SIN # ... Seriuosly , all this mess was pain in the ***.... and if I don;t report this T5, CRA will hold me responsible, no?! In Israel, it would be problem of the bank , not mine. Why do we need this headache?!


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> In a large % of cases, the original tax calculation will be correct and taxpayers don't have to do anything. Eliminates a wasteful double effort and will save us billions of dollars. Surely that is a good thing? Countries much like Canada have done it successfully, so why not Canada?


 the only reason I can think about ... to do what a big brother (US) is doing.... But they are doing it for different purposes....


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So the bank screws up its reporting, yet you have no reason to review your records and make sure the government has the same submissions as you expect them to have...

No, it's not a bank problem, it's your problem. You'll be on the hook one way or another. 

Not filing a tax return means 99.9% of he population probably would never review their information. Personally the government and big banks are the last people I'd trust with my finances.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Not filing a tax return means 99.9% of he population probably would never review their information.


 Absolutely not true! If anybody get at specific month more or less money they expect, 99.9% will review the info. Tax on interest will be paid on withdrawals and no need to report anything.
_Residents will be exempt from filing a tax return if all their income in the tax year was salary income or rental income, or foreign income, foreign pension income, interest income, securities income, or other income or a combination thereof_


----------



## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

agent99 said:


> Seems to me we file a tax return and then CRA runs it through their computer and says whether we got it right or wrong! All those other countries get by without taxpayers actually having to file a return. Guvmint just send out a statement and just like your Visa bill, you get to say if it is right or wrong, rather than other way round.


I think if you have a simple return, i.e., T4, T5008, T4A, basically anything "registered" or with a T-slip you should be good to go. 

Business taxes, self-employment, other, I have no problem with it. 

_We would save billions on this. 
_

@JAG, so if the bank screws up its reporting, you DO have reasons to review your records because like income, you have reason to ensure your taxes are in good order. People wouldn't overpay for a pizza on a Friday night yet they have no clue about potentially hundreds or thousands of dollars missing each year from a poor tax filing? #insane.

Your comment is valid. The vast majority of people don't visit CMF and couldn't give a rats @$$ about money. Too bad because everyone complains about it


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I was at the bank the other day submitting a tax payment. The teller was rather surprised that I had to pay. I pointed out that they payed every month it came off their paycheque automatically and that refunds meant they overpayed all year...they had no idea how much came off, thought it was only about 10%...

When I told hem that it was probably closer to 50%, they were floored. A banker had never looked at their deductions...yet he general population, according to gibor, are supposed to know if they overpaid their taxes. Not to mention, they are supposed to know that the bank didn't submit the proper information to the government.

Heck, if I wasn't forced to submit paperwork from all my different accounts once a year, I'd probably never look either. I hate accounting but, at least once a year I go over everything with a fine toothed comb, and have an expert look at it. True, I do look at things on a monthly basis as well, but there I'm just looking to see that nothing sticks out of the ordinary.

Once a year, everyone being forced to pull together their records and look at them to make sure everything is right, as opposed to trusting the government to do it for you, is a pretty good investment in your financial affairs. Heck, taking a few minutes to talk with your accountant once in a while to learn legitimate ways to reduce your taxes is also a good investment that few people make.

As I said before, I hate accounting, but I make sure I understand how to use it to my advantage...something the government has no interest in me doing.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

UK's system is way better. Unless you run a business or there are complications, there is absolutely no reason why the tax system shouldn't be simple and tax returns optional. In Canada the system is screwed up because parties buy votes from target groups by using tiny little handouts while grabbing taxpayers' money from the other pocket. It's beyond ridiculous but also very harmful because the incentives are to focus on accounting rather than earning.

And everyone is free to submit a tax return in England too - if they feel like it - but normal employees won't find the outcome would change.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If the system is so good, why would people be getting refunds? Why aren't the deductions correct from the start? When I worked for government a long time ago it cost them about $30 to cut a cheque. No refunds would save a lot.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

Nobody said that Canadian tax system is good. On the contrary - it's f-ked up. The only people benefiting are accountants and, of course, politicians.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So, you'd trust them to start taking the right amount of money going forward because it may work in other countries...though I'd bet those other countries aren't as good as you think.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> And everyone is free to submit a tax return in England too - if they feel like it - but normal employees won't find the outcome would change.


 Exactly same system in Israel. If you want , you can file taxes, but nobody does it. For example, I'm filing taxes for myself, my wife, my son, my mom and my MIL. It takes me several weeks to do it and then I'm scared that maybe I missed something and CRA would [email protected] me up. I have impession that Canada , instead of implement "world best practices", implements "world worst practicies". Not only taxes, same with OHIP
And everything here goes in similar way, some (like sags) telling that solicialism is good. Ok, find.... but why in canada mixed thae worst from socialism and capitalism?! If it's socialism and very high taxes, why high education is not free like in EU (in Germany it's free even for international students, I;d prefer that my kids were studing insted of French ,German in school), why people should pay for vision, dental (include kids and seniors) etc? I was practically blind on one eye, the only solution was lens replacement, and in addition to huge taxes wepay, I paid $3,200 for this surgery! 
Why public transport is not subsidized and so expensive?I need constantly to go to Bochner eye institute. 35 min on Go bus , I need to pay about $19 for go + $6.50 for couple of stops on subway. Ridiculous! This is half price of round trip flight from Dublin to Brussels


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> So, you'd trust them to start taking the right amount of money going forward because it may work in other countries...though I'd bet those other countries aren't as good as you think.


If you don't trust, you MAY file taxes and will get refund if you find mistake.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> It takes me several weeks to do it and then I'm scared that maybe I missed something and CRA would [email protected] me up. I have impession that Canada , instead of implement "world best practices", implements "world worst practicies".


Hmm..I have always filed my own taxes and so far only made one mistake (addition), which CRA eventually caught early this year.
I added up the taxes deducted from my pensions and I was about $150.xx over what was shown on the T4P slips.
How that happened, I don't really know (seniors brain f#%t), I suppose, but I double checked the copy of my return and sure
enough I did owe them the money. I have a CRA account and through it paid them what I owed them. No problems with
the gov'ts what so ever. BTW, Ontario health care (OHIP) is paid from your taxable income and the only way you can pay that
what you owe is through filing a return. Under $10K of taxable income, you pay NOTHING for your OHIP. Over $10K, you
pay a percentage based on your taxable income..in my case it's $300 per year of filing.




> Not only taxes, same with OHIP


What's wrong with OHIP? Surely you don't expect the gov't to pay for every health care you may need, that is what private insurance schemes are for. But if you get hit by bus/car and have to be taken into Emerg, be thankful you are living in Ontario or any other province. In the US, you would be shelling out THOUSANDS for emergency medical attention, unless you had private insurance. 
And with Trump meddling with the current health care system them, it's going to cost a lot more!

I had to have a pacemaker installed last February...my cost with OHIP coverage ..NADA! Even with a 5 day stay in the heart institute and another 5 days in the regular part of the hospital for other medical issues. 

My drugs are basically covered by the Ontario Seniors Drug Plan. Sure, I have to pay a deductible and a small co-payment, but I am thankful that I live in a country/province where I can get sick (and seriously sick), and not having to worry about mortgaging my house or emptying out my life savings as in the US.




> And everything here goes in similar way, some (like sags) telling that solicialism is good. Ok, find.... but why in canada mixed (thae ???) worst from socialism and capitalism?! If it's socialism and very high taxes,


So you are saying that everything should be free here and you can go your own way making as much money as you can and squirrel it away investing in whatever. You also have to understand that if you can afford it..you need to "pay your own way". do you not?



> why high education is not free like in EU (in Germany it's free even for international students,


What is the income tax structure in Germany? Is it a tax free country? I doubt it, someone is paying for the free education.



> why people should pay for vision, dental (include kids and seniors) etc?


Dental work is very expensive here in Ontario/Canada. You can't expect the gov't to cover dental work where everyone would rush in to get new teeth (expensive veneers or implants), then expect the taxpayers to pay for this do you?

Do you expect the gov't to take care of your bad teeth/poor hygiene? That is your since you own your teeth.
BTW, as a senior with NO employer dental plan, I spent several thousand so far in the last 4 years, to save what I have left, one implant (nearly $4500) and a couple of partial dentures. All came out of my own pocket.




> I was practically blind on one eye, the only solution was lens replacement, and in addition to huge taxes wepay, I paid $3,200 for this surgery!


Where did you have it done..in a hospital or a doctor specialist office? Most specialists may not be covered by OHIP. just like some tests (ie PST (prostate) test are not covered, even though this type of screening may actually be beneficial.
Health care costs keep rising and there is only so much gov't funding to go around. 
All the new immigrants in Ont have to be covered by OHIP too, even though most of them haven't worked long enough to pay any income taxes. 


> Why public transport is not subsidized and so expensive?


It is subsidized, the basic infrastructure, like the TTC etc, but the user has to pay something too..the operating costs, fuel, repairs, drivers' salary has to come from somewhere..and it's the user of these services. 

If you don't use it..you pay nothing and that doesn't come out of your taxable income.

Try living in Iraq, Afganistan or Syria for example, then come back to report on how good medical and transportation is there.:friendly_wink:


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> So, you'd trust them to start taking the right amount of money going forward because it may work in other countries...though I'd bet those other countries aren't as good as you think.


I am not talking from "I'd bet" or "thinking". I am talking from experience.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So mordko no other government, in your experience, over taxes its citizens...just Canada. Or are you saying the few countries you listed are all above board, no over charges compared to Canada...of course, even if it was true in your case with your experience, it doesn't mean the other citizens aren't getting ripped off...

Gibor, you realize that you can claim excess medical expenses on your taxes right? So, had you filed your taxes properly, it may technically be covered (they don't allow all treatments, but do cover more than just the "free" ones). 

Our "free" medical coverage already eats up about 40% of the taxes paid, education isn't far behind. Every time more funding is announced, instead of smaller class sizes, shorter wait lines, etc. The unions line up for pay increases and strike notice...hard to increase coverage when it all goes to wages.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Try living in Iraq, Afganistan or Syria for example, then come back to report on how good medical and transportation is there.


 Yeah, nice comparisson


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> So mordko no other government, in your experience, over taxes its citizens...just Canada. Or are you saying the few countries you listed are all above board, no over charges compared to Canada...of course, even if it was true in your case with your experience, it doesn't mean the other citizens aren't getting ripped off...


Not at all what I am saying. Not even talking about "overtaxing". All I am saying is that the way tax system is set up and operates and how the taxes are collected is screwed up so badly that the financial incentive is to put a lot of effort into accounting rather than working and earning more. 

Nor am I talking about "countries", my experience is only with Britain which used to have a badly screwed up system too. Then came Maggie and simplified everything.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> Yeah, nice comparisson


Just be greatful he left out Sudan, Yemen, Somalia and Zimbabwe. 

Interesting that investment in Canada is now lower than in Greece though.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

mordko said:


> Just be greatful he left out Sudan, Yemen, Somalia and Zimbabwe.
> 
> Interesting that investment in Canada is now lower than in Greece though.


Yeah, I like people what on statement that something is bad, tell that in some retarded countries are even worse .
btw, In Zimbabwe, 30 years ago he would live like a king


----------



## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

mordko said:


> Nobody said that Canadian tax system is good. On the contrary - it's f-ked up. The only people benefiting are accountants and, of course, politicians.


Yup. Our tax code and system overall is unbelievably and overly complex. Then again, many people depend on jobs that this complexity has created. Insane if you ask me.


----------



## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

gibor365 said:


> Why public transport is not subsidized and so expensive?


Public transportation is subsidized. About half the cost of it is paid by taxes.

The problem IMO with public transportation in Canada is it's inconsistent. Most cities here, you want to commute form the suburbs to downtown to work, the transit is pretty efficient and packed. It is quick, runs frequently and is heavily used. It pays for itself. 

But all other public transportation tends to be cumbersome, infrequently used and it's a bit of a circular thing. Getting across town on a weekend in Calgary may take 4 times as long as driving the same distance. Therefore almost everyone drives here, and those buses are often empty, so they are heavily subsidized by taxes. If they added more buses, trains, etc to make different variations. (rather than suburbs to downtown) convenient more people would potentially start riding it, but it would be a big hit up front. 

I don't know what the correct answer is, but having used public transportation in places like NY and Europe, it's a different experience.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> but having used public transportation in places like NY and Europe, it's a different experience


 Thatwhat i meant , cannot say about NY, but in Europe public transportation incompatible. I've read somewhere that in Switzerland more than half population don't have cars at all, so efficient is public transportation is.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

My Own Advisor said:


> Yup. Our tax code and system overall is unbelievably and overly complex. Then again, many people depend on jobs that this complexity has created. Insane if you ask me.


I was working in company that doing soft for fimancial institutions, every year i was leading tax YE regression project.... it was taking more than month, you cannot imagine how many tax form are there....all those T's and R's.... Some institutions have even some own custom forms, for example Dejardins has contribution receipt and transfer recipt form that is completely different from all other institutions. Also they have R26 form thatno one esle has. National bank has R7 form that also nobody else have... This is insane!


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So, let's compare Europe's transit system with Canada's...except let's ignore the fact that most European countries have more than 35M people in areas significantly smaller than any single province.

Transit works in dense populations, not sparse ones. About the only city in Canada that could support a cost effective transit system is Vancouver because it's densely populated and can't have urban sprawl. And when I say Vancouver, I don't mean the surrounding cities and towns, just Vancouver proper.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Nothing to do with Canada , let's take GTA... and compare with London... London has more than 400km subway, GTA hardly 60... the longest Toronto subway line is 7.4 km, in London 54.4 km, in Barcelona 47.8km


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Okay let's compare...

Population is about equal at 9M each.

Now, let's look at size. London is 1572 square km.

The GTA is 7,124 square km.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Okay let's compare...
> 
> Population is about equal at 9M each.
> 
> ...


And?! So the biggest line should be bigger and not 7 times shorter . Oh, in your opinion , biggest the city, smaller subway should be?!


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

No, the cost to cover the GTA like London would be cost prohibitive. You could fit 5 londons in the GTA. Even if they had the same amount of subways it would t make a dent in coverage. Who's going to foot the bill? The city is already almost bankrupt. 

I'd also wonder about the water table in the GTA. How deep can you seriously go with a Great Lake right next to it. It's not like it's a single river.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Yeah, I like people what on statement that something is bad, tell that in some retarded countries are even worse .
> btw, *In Zimbabwe, 30 years ago he would live like a king*


30 years ago, I was worth enough that I WOULD be king there, 
but life unfortunately dealt me a bad hand...D-I-V-OR-CE.

After 4 years of legal battles and 4 lawyers, the judge decided to "throw the book at me"...bad bad man
she admonished me in court.

...now I could still live in Zimbabwe as a gov't official of some kind, get to marry at least
4 wives and send them off to "work the streets" to support ME!

song by Seals and Crofts:


> When I was seventeen *I dreamed of being king* and
> Having everything I wanted
> But that was long ago and
> My dreams did not unfold so
> ...


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I'd also wonder about the water table in the GTA. How deep can you seriously go with a Great Lake right next to it. It's not like it's a single river.


 Toronto subway is already going to Etobicoke, no any problem to expend to Oakville and Milton...

Let's compare travelling from Toronto to Montreal (504km) vs London to Edinburg (534km)... pretty similar , right? Just picked up 2 days May 13-15 on google flights... Flight Toronto to Montreal and back cost $283 , London to Edinburg and back $53... more then 5 times less! What , fuel in England or salaries of pilot 5+ times less then here?! I doubt it  No wonder that nobody fly from Toronto to Montreal ...
I live 40km from downtown Toronto and to get there and back by public transportation cost me $19 + $6 to get to Go station by bus...

p.s. To tell you the truth, I was planning several time to travel to AB, BC or NL, but I always find that it's cheaper (and more interesting) to go to Europe or Carribean


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> now I could still live in Zimbabwe as a gov't official of some kind


 Recently read article about sport in Zimbabwe... All Olympic medals they got were by






and








Interesting Zimbabwians  even Russian hockey team is more diversified


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Do you understand economies of scale? 35M people on the 2nd largest landmass. 

The costs to operate any of your desires is cost prohibitive. There is more demand for European tourists coming and going to Canada than people flying Toronto to Montreal. 

Let's make it simpler for you to understand... the USA is a little smaller, but has 10x the population. They have 10x more people able to pay for infrastructure, they have 10x more people to use the infrastructure. Sure it costs more to serve 10x the population, but not 10x the amount. That's one of the reasons there are better transportation systems and it's cheaper to use them in the USA. 

Europe has even more population is a much smaller area, so the costs are even lower. To build the same subway system in the GTA as in London would cost at least 5x as much for the same population. To service a system 5x larger would probably add all sorts of complexity on top of just the build costs, yet it would only service the same population... 

This isn't rocket science, this is basic economics. Our size and population won't support a European or any other country's system.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Our size and population won't support a European or any other country's system.


 Yeah, sure we are freaking special and have the best system in the world :redface-new:


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You seem to be one of those people who think everyone should be equal no matter what. Don't have a job and are broke, why should that mean you can't have a Ferrari...

Canada is a massive place with few people, it can't afford to have things other counties do. Nothing special about it, it's called reality. Same reason the homeless unemployed guy can't own a Ferrari and eat at the ritz, even though other people get to.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Canada is a massive place with few people, it can't afford to have things other counties do


 and this is exactly why our tax system is [email protected] up


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Or maybe its citizens who keep asking the government for transit systems like in the U.K.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Do you understand economies of scale? 35M people on the 2nd largest landmass.
> 
> .


I like this statement about 2nd largest landmass.... however, 95% of this landmass is not populated 
as per https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html


> approximately 90% of the population is concentrated within 160 km of the US border


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Gee, the equivalent of the entire population of Canada resides in the state of New York. A lot smaller than "the worlds longest undefended border"...

You can drive across Europe in a single day (Luxembourg is what 40 km wide?). try driving across Canada along the border and see how long it takes.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> You can drive across Europe in a single day


Continental Europe is ~4.5 thousand km "across". You'd be driving at about 200 km/h. I am guessing Canada is about the same - east to west along the border. 

Don't think the transport system is all that bad though. Seems fine to me, except for flying. Flying out of Toronto = extortion.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sorry, most people I know don't include Eastern Europe when discussing "Europe". My mistake in assuming.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Gee, the equivalent of the entire population of Canada resides in the state of New York. A lot smaller than "the worlds longest undefended border"...
> 
> You can drive across Europe in a single day (Luxembourg is what 40 km wide?). try driving across Canada along the border and see how long it takes.


Amazing logic , if there is long drive from East to West,it's fine to have [email protected] up tax system, shitty transportation and ridiculous health care....


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

mordko said:


> Don't think the transport system is all that bad though. Seems fine to me, except for flying. Flying out of Toronto = extortion.


I think that it's pretty bad and too expensive. My mom lives in Milton, my MIL in Georgetown, we in West Mississauga.... the disctances between 3 cities about 15 km.... If you take public transportation, trip from Georgetown to Milton or to West Mississauga will take 2.15-2.30 hour


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

mordko said:


> Don't think the transport system is all that bad though. Seems fine to me, except for flying. Flying out of Toronto = extortion


Since moving away from Toronto, I now see (in hindsight) how great YYZ was.

I live in a small center now with a smaller airport. I miss being close to YYZ. So many direct flights... extremely convenient.

My friends in Ottawa complain how difficult it is to go places. Everything is a connecting flight, and those are exhausting.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Since moving away from Toronto, I now see (in hindsight) how great YYZ was.
> 
> I live in a small center now with a smaller airport. I miss being close to YYZ. So many direct flights... extremely convenient.
> 
> My friends in Ottawa complain how difficult it is to go places. Everything is a connecting flight, and those are exhausting.


People from GTA drive to Buffalo and then fly to Europe or US. Half the price. Less than half if ridiculous cost of parking or taxis is taken into account. The cost of flying to Ottawa is much, much, much higher than London-Manchester. 

There is no way to justify this extortion.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> I think that it's pretty bad and too expensive. My mom lives in Milton, my MIL in Georgetown, we in West Mississauga.... the disctances between 3 cities about 15 km.... If you take public transportation, trip from Georgetown to Milton or to West Mississauga will take 2.15-2.30 hour


Milton to Streetsville (West Mississauga) will take you 12 minutes on the Go-Train. 

Greater Manchester/Cheshire - comparable to GTA/Horseshoe in scale. Macclesfield to Northwich is the same distance as Milton to Mississauga centre. Will take you over two hours by public transport, assuming you live by the station. You'll have to go in the opposite direction and change over in Liverpool and Manchester. Getting a taxi from Milton to Georgtown or Mississauga will be cheaper and faster than from Northwich to Macclesfield. 

If you are talking door to door, there is no way to link everyone's suburbian mother in law's house to your particular suburbia via direct routes at a reasonable cost. Kinda obvious. If you insist on paying for empty buses running between arbitrary points A to Z at regular intervals, just buy yourself a bus and run one.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> I think that it's pretty bad and too expensive. My mom lives in Milton, my MIL in Georgetown, we in West Mississauga.... the disctances between 3 cities about 15 km.... If you take public transportation, trip from Georgetown to Milton or to West Mississauga will take 2.15-2.30 hour


You need to buy a car


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Amazing logic , if there is long drive from East to West,it's fine to have [email protected] up tax system, shitty transportation and ridiculous health care....


I see you continue to either intentionally miss the point, or are completely obtuse so I'll just leave you to your "Canada sucks" beliefs. Someday, once the government raises the taxes by at least 5x the current levels, and gets rid of tax returns (after all who'll need it with a 250% tax rate) you can maybe have your Israel or England of the west and your true dream state.

Alternatively, a one way ticket is fairly cheap, especially if you drive south first and spend more than he parking fees on gas...you and mordko could carpool...or maybe hop on a box car like hey did in the old days to save even more. Hop a plane full of the people from Israel, trying to get away from all the lead in the air, good transportation and steady tax income are key in war zones. England, of course is much safer, they only fear unattended backpacks because they're paranoid, I mean cautious and wise, I'm sure...and their video surveillance is second to none, who needs privacy these days. Plus you'd be closer to France...they're basically still under martial law for the last year, but their health care system is great...despite the fact that the country is going broke and has massive unemployment...

Of course, a ticket would be rather costly...you could walk, pass all those people who are walking north to get away from the better tax system and ideals down south for some strange reason. I can't figure out why they don't use the superior transportation system...


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

Your thoughtful advice is appreciated. I'd like to return the favour. Please take a brisk walk in the general direction of making love to yourself. You will find the task more fruitful than telling others where they should live. 

Also, what's up with all the dots in between gibberish?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Milton to Streetsville (West Mississauga) will take you 12 minutes on the Go-Train.


 mordko, I wasn't talking about trip from Miton to West Mississauga, but about trip from Georgetown to Milton and Georgetown to West Mississauga.... more than 2 hours any time of the day



> Your thoughtful advice is appreciated.


 I'm just amazed how some Canadians are brainwashed :triumphant:



> You need to buy a car


 I got one , but my mom is no driving ...again, I complain about public transportation , not about cars market 



> Since moving away from Toronto, I now see (in hindsight) how great YYZ was.


 I agree that YYZ has many direct flights and it's good, but air fare is ridiculous high, esp. flying within Canada... and I bet that if prices would be reasonable,much more people would travel within Canada and thus help to develop economy...
btw,if you don't have car , it's a pain in the *** to get to/from Pearson... We live 20km from YYZ(20 min drive), but if I take public transportation it will take me 1.5-2 hours and changing 3-4 buses and I live in the same city as YYZ located 



> People from GTA drive to Buffalo and then fly to Europe or US


 Not any more...since CAD$ is si depressed,now Americans drive to Pearson to fly cheaper lol


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> mordko, I wasn't talking about trip from Miton to West Mississauga, but about trip from Georgetown to Milton and Georgetown to West Mississauga.... more than 2 hours any time of the day


So what? If you live in a small town/rural area, that's what's going to happen. Not just in Canada - most places. 



> Not any more...since CAD$ is si depressed,now Americans drive to Pearson to fly cheaper lol


Yeah, that's funny.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

mordko said:


> Also, what's up with all the dots in between gibberish?


Those three dots are together known as ellipsis (plural: elipses) -- or "suspension point" in the printing trade.

The principal (and traditional) function is to indicate intentional omission of a word, section or a whole section of text.

However, it has come to pass that the ellipsis is also used as a visual cue or signal in the text to show 4 possible things:

1. Something more is to come (e.g. to break up longer turns in conversations).

2. Politeness, such as to show changing of the topic or hesitation.

3. Silence or pause, such as to show confusion, disagreement or disapproval (and this was started in the comic strips and comic books in the 1950s to show "trailing-off silence").

4. Some sort of 'deeper' meaning implied by the writer or for the recipient to figure out.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> Those three dots are together known as ellipsis (plural: elipses) -- or "suspension point" in the printing trade.
> 
> The principal (and traditional) function is to indicate intentional omission of a word, section or a whole section of text.
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining that. I was concerned that you had a focal task-specific tremor or dystonia.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

agent99 said:


> I was concerned that you had a focal task-specific tremor or dystonia.


No need to be concerned. That particular writing style is rather typical in teenage girls from disadvantaged families.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

People in glass houses mordko...that's an allusion btw. Of course it could be an excellent example of irony.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Looking at my Chrome screen. I see at top right the '3-dot' or 'More items" or "vertical ellipsis" icon. This might be more appropriate ⋮ but it is slightly more difficult to type


----------

