# Electricity and Natural Gas



## leeder (Jan 28, 2012)

Our family is currently with Direct Energy for natural gas and Epcor for electricity. We're not locked to any fixed rate plans or anything. However, I'm not sure if I would save more using a fixed rate plan vs variable rate. I'm just wondering what you, CMF members, are doing right now and why you have chosen fixed/variable rates. Thanks.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

I recall watching this a few years back:

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/Marketplace/Season+36/ID/1354328503/


It's been a while since I saw it, but it might address any decisions you may have about contracts of any kind with Direct Energy.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

leeder said:


> Our family is currently with Direct Energy for natural gas and Epcor for electricity. We're not locked to any fixed rate plans or anything. However, I'm not sure if I would save more using a fixed rate plan vs variable rate. I'm just wondering what you, CMF members, are doing right now and why you have chosen fixed/variable rates. Thanks.


I was in a fixed rate (reseller) of electricity about 5 years ago..WORSE MISTAKE IN MY LIFE! It ended up costing me a LOT MORE per month on my electric bill because when you sign with a reseller for X cents per kwh..the province tacks on a SURCHARGE on each kwh consumed . It used to be called the provincial benefit..(then re-labled as provincial advantage, (misnomer? but this benefit is for the electric generators..NOT YOU! 

Considering that the electricity comes from the SAME generating source , it doesn't make sense..it's another CASH COW..and the consumers that sign up to save money, end up paying more. 
I went back on the RPP as quickly as I could. I'm still getting screwed with high electricity rates, but maybe not so much with RPP since the conversion to smart meters and tiered rates. 

Customers on Contracts
Fewer than 1 in 10 customers get their power from an electricity retailer. Those consumers have signed a contract and pay a fixed rate that is separate from time-of-use and tiered pricing.



> *Contract customers also pay an additional charge, known as the Global Adjustment. The Global Adjustment includes additional costs not accounted for in market prices. *They are costs all Ontario electricity customers must pay. They include:
> 
> Contract prices paid to many power generators
> Many conservation and demand management programs


So as you see..you can't win for losing in the end...

NAT GAS
I am currently finishing off a 5 year contract with JUST ENERGY..another big mistake..as I signed up 4 years ago at 29.9c a cubic meter for gas. Over the last 4 winters, that has cost me about $200 a winter more to heat my house than if I had stayed with Enbridge due to fluctating gas prices ( based on supply and demand). In a warmer winter there is an abundance of gas available so the prices drop, on a cold winter as the first part of 2014, when more gas is used, the supply of gas is used up and the prices rise..as Enbridge announced a couple of months ago.

My heating costs were significantly higher because I was paying more than the going rate + HST on top of that.
In February I was going to terminate the contract (with 1 year left) early and pay the early termination penalty ($300) or renegotiate to 19.9 cents a cubic meter (10c saving per cu meter). After a rough calculation of the gas used for the next 12 months..I decided that $300 would pay for 1.5 months of heating and it might as well be in my pocket..because I would still have to pay for gas from Enbridge at the same time. But I will not be locking into a 5 year contract ever again.

Visit this site to get an idea, and do your math...*DO NOT ASSUME THAT SIGNING A CONTRACT WILL GUARANTEE FUTURE SAVINGS.*.at best if you can break even..you are doing well!

http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/OEB/Consumers/Natural Gas/Your Natural Gas Utility


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

also consider all the time and stress of sitting there hammering on a calculator every month trying to see how much worse off or better you are.


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## Michelle1983 (Jan 7, 2014)

I signed up with Just Energy last summer. They came to the door and I wasn't really sure entirely what they are and I asked the sales rep numerous times if it was any sort of contract and he kept telling me I could cancel at any time. 

A few months later, I went to discontinue services (I had an unplanned move) and they tried to charge me almost $1000 for breaking their contract. Fortunately I contacted Better Business Bureau and was able to have them waive the fee and I got out of it. I'd never go with them again. They were nothing but a headache to deal with.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Fixed rate contracts by gas & hydro re-sellers are a great deal - for them, not for the consumers (you).
Unless you are an energy sector expert analyst, can analyze weather patterns and predict average winter temperatures over the next 2 seasons, you should just go with the regular market rate offered by the regulated providers (Enbridge and Union Gas here in S/W Ontario).

When we bought our house back in spring of 2004, soon after moving in, we were visited almost every day by natural gas re-sellers (don't recall the names).
They used scare tactics, played on average consumers' lack of understanding of how regulated gas pricing works, and general F.U.D. to lock people into long-term gas contracts.

At that time, Union Gas rates were around 23c./m3 and the marketers were offering 35c./m3.

We almost signed a contract. Almost. I literally had the nice pen from the nice guy with the clipboard ready to sign, and then said I will sleep on it, and call you back tomorrow.

That was one of our greatest lucky escapes.

During the following 5 years (the term of the offered contract), no only did Union Gas rates never reached anywhere close to 35c. m3, they dropped to the mid teens (14c. - 17c. m3).
Had we signed the fixed rate, fixed term contract, we would have been overpaying by _*more than double *_the rate.

If you are worried about rising N/G rates for home heating, instead of signing one of these fixed rate contracts, just hedge your exposure by buying shares in regulated gas suppliers like Enbridge (ENB), and Union Gas (UNG & SE).
Or, buy an ETF that tracks the north American gas futures.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

NG and electrical resellers have to cover their fixed rate contracts (with consumers) with hedges on their supply so they don't lose their shirts should their wholesale purchase prices take off. Hedges cost money as do all the commissions they have to pay the door-to-door peddlers. It is simple math to understand that fixed rate contracts have to cost the consumer more over the long term. The only advantage to these things is to avoid the uncertainty of a possible unexpected run up in wholesale prices during the contract term. If you can handle the variability in NG and electricity prices, you will almost always be better off.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Michelle1983 said:


> A few months later, I went to discontinue services (I had an unplanned move) and* they tried to charge me almost $1000 for breaking their contract.* Fortunately I contacted Better Business Bureau and was able to have them waive the fee and I got out of it. I'd never go with them again. They were nothing but a headache to deal with.


 You have experienced the same thing with this Just Energy scam. You save nothing when it all averages out and it costs you a lot to get out of it. I would have thought that if you are moving, changing your gas service address, they would automatically cancel for you..but you see..they are hoping that when you move to the new address that has gas service, they will get notified by Enbridge and resume the contract.


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## Michelle1983 (Jan 7, 2014)

Yeah, exactly. Only in this instance I was moving to a condo where I pay condo fees so I no longer needed them at all. I'm just so happy they had me on their tape recording they play for you when signing up asking the sales guy about whether it was a contact and him flat out saying no. It's the reason I was able to get out of it entirely.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

A few years ago I signed up with Enmax (Alberta) for power at 8.0 cents per kwhr and a floating gas rate. I haven't checked to see if I was ahead of behind by doing this but I'm relatively happy with my decision since the fixed contract is now higher and the Regulate Rate Option often seems higher. However, the cost of either power of gas is less than half the price of getting it delivered. In general, my 'all in' cost for power is about .20 cents per kwhr after all the delivery fees and local access fees and anything else they dream up to charge so the .08 cents that Enmax charges isn't the largest cost - it's the other charges that drive the overall bill up - same with gas.

I have found the best thing to do is reduce consumption - LED bulbs are expensive but from the testing I have done - I can run about 25 LED bulbs for the same cost as an incandescent bulb. CLF's are better than incandescent but LED's still beat them hands down. I also converted my hot tub to run on gas using a heat exchanger on the hot water tank. ALOT cheaper to run now. We also air dry our washing rather than using the electric dryer and bought a small toaster oven rather than using the electric stove/oven if we don't need it. Generally our power consumption is about 600 kWhr per month. I think the average is about 1000 kWhrs. However with fixed costs, the lower the consumption, the higher the per kwhr cost is but it is all about reducing consumption. 

Anyone notice that SNC Lavalin sold Altalink (Power transmission in Alberta) to Warren Buffet. Obviously a good profit in running this business. The big scam here I believe is that our Utilities, which we need to exist in this cold country,have been privatized by our governments (sold to 'for profit companies') so rather than being run for consumers in a not for profit manner, generally they have been sold off which we the tax payers paid for in the first place and now large companies are making profit on their investment. Oh yeah - we're being protected too by our local 'Authorities' which authorize the requested increases. These companies dream up projects which offer them a guaranteed rate of return and we get to pay - with profit. Witness the new transmission line being constructed in Alberta. Once that power is available to send in larger quantities to the US, which US companies will bid for as they shut down their nukes and coal plants, we'll be paying higher and higher rates - and pay for (with profit) the ability to get the power there too via the new transmission lines.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I have found the best thing to do is reduce consumption - LED bulbs are expensive but from the testing I have done - I can run about 25 LED bulbs for the same cost as an incandescent bulb. CLF's are better than incandescent but LED's still beat them hands down.


LEDs are still very expensive compared to CFLs, which is now the new norm. I expect that in about 5 years time as prices come down on LEDs, more and more people will be buying them..however, that is not
where the major power consumption in the home occurs. Fridges/AC and furnaces or electric heating is the biggest part of your electrical bill..about 80 to 90% of the energy consumed. 


> Witness the new transmission line being constructed in Alberta. Once that power is available to send in larger quantities to the US, which US companies will bid for as they shut down their nukes and coal plants, we'll be paying higher and higher rates - and pay for (with profit) the ability to get the power there too via the new transmission lines.


It's pretty much the same in Ontario, the OEB sets the rates, the IESO, the unions and the old Ontario Hydro pension debt all add up to our electricity bill

The Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO) is a Crown corporation responsible for operating the electricity market and directing the operation of the bulk electrical system in the province of Ontario, Canada. It is one of eight Independent System Operators in North America.


> The IESO was established in April 1999 as the Independent Electricity Market Operator (IMO) under the provincial government of premier Mike Harris in preparation for *deregulation of the province's electrical supply and transmission system.* As part of government plans to privatize the assets of Ontario Hydro, the utility was split into 5 separate Crown corporations with the IMO responsible for directing the flow of electricity across the high-voltage, province-wide network owned by Hydro One and other transmission companies. It was also given the responsibility of managing and operating the competitive wholesale electricity market and working with neighbouring jurisdictions to manage an integrated North American electricity network.


So in essence, they broke up the big electrical monster (Ontario Hydro) into separate components to make it easier to privatize....OPG/Hydro One /OPA and IESO...

http://www.ontario-hydro.com/


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Hi Carverman
Oh yes I realize that lighting is not the major load - but my point is that anything helps and reduction of consumption is the most cost effective way of reducing the power bill. Shutting the lights off when you're not in the room helps a lot too. I have been experimenting with cheaper LED's from China (everything is made there anyway) and have found some longevity issues. Hopefully that gets straightened out. Costco have 3 for $22 occasionally so that is a decent price. Haven't tried those yet but it's on my list.

I hear you about Ontario Hydro. My parents live in Ottawa and they have a 3 tiered power rate system to encourage off peak consumption. A good idea but it doesn't have much effect on the overall bill - it's more of a "make you feel good about delaying the dishwasher until the evening" IMO. We don't have that ability in Alberta. Different source of power generation I hear. And yes I agree Ontario was a monster and perhaps inefficient too but now that 'for profit' companies are in there rates will go up. Just a matter of time to satisfy Corporate revenue and bonus requirements for the executives. It used to be that if you worked for "a utility" you were generally paid a bit less to compensate for a lifetime job and a good pension. Now not so much. In the end - the consumer gets to bend over forward again. I Calgary, Enmax is owned by the City and contributes to the city's revenue so our Tax & Spend City Council has another source of cash to build fancy bridges and $9.0 million bicycle path trials - but I digress.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

We've never signed a contract on either gas or electricity. My brother did it a while ago and it saved him quite a bit of money. But I think he is in the minority. He signed again once his contract with the gas retailer ended, and this time he wasn't so lucky. 

I am of the same mind as most of you, and that is it is not in your best interest to commit to a contract. 

There are things that we do to reduce our energy consumption. 
1) installing a programmable thermostat
2) installing ceiling fans in most rooms in the house
3) drying clothes outside in warm weather, and hanging drying clothes for a day before drying in dryer in cold weather. This is more work, obviously, but the dryer runs for 10 minutes as opposed to 45-60 on a full load. With three boys at home we do laundry almost every single day. This one change amounts to about a 2-3kwh per day. It also has the added benefit of getting more moisture into the house during the winter months when most homes are dryer.
4) fix air leaks in the house; if necessary, add blow-in insulation in the attic if it's an older house (R50 minimum)

Doing these four things do make a considerable reduction in energy consumption. Replacing light bulbs won't make a huge difference, as Carverman pointed out, and since they cost 5x more than CFL's, it's not so feasible to replace all the bulbs in the house. Also I see the rationale in them during summer when the added heat of incandescent (and to some extent, CFL's) would require extra work on the A/C unit, but one could argue that during the cold months the added heat reduces the load on the furnace, albeit very marginally in both cases.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Not to beat a dead horse - but LED's will pay for themselves easily depending on the application. Where my parents live in Ottawa, the neighbourhood requires the exterior garage lights be photocell controlled so all front drive garage lights are on when it's dark - no streetlights. A 60 watt incandescent light costs over a year would be (.5A * 120V /1000 w/kw *12hrs/day *365 day/yr * $.20/kWhr) $52.56 per year (assuming they're on for 12 hrs/day). The equivalent CFL uses .12 A ($12.61/yr) and an LED uses 0.02A ($2.10/yr) (I measured the amps). So used with discretion, they are the way to go IMO. Yes CFL's use significantly less than incandescent, but I find they don't last too long especially if they are switched on and off a lot and take a while to warm up plus they use mercury. Amazing how fast a few amps adds up - every little bit helps.

I recently replaced 100 4 foot fluorescent tubes in an office. In this case the LED tubes used half the energy of fluorescent tubes (.2A vs .4 amps per tube) not to mention no ballast to replace at $25 per ballast + labour and no flicker either. Payout for this is less than 3 years - a good investment for them. (No I don't sell LED lights)

Conservation in what ever form is the best way to reduce consumption. I agree that reducing large loads (Furnace,Stove, Dryer, A/C etc.) is biggest band for the buck - but taking care of the pennies helps too.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

I agree with you, Brian. Whatever you can do to reduce consumption is a good thing, even if it doesn't reduce the dent in your wallet significantly. I recently replaced the 18 GU10 (50w) bulbs in my basement with 8W LED's that were on sale at Costco. Having all the lights on in the basement before would be like a 900W bulb. Now it's 150W. Huge difference, and it cost $90 to replace all 18 bulbs. If they weren't on sale the replacement cost would have been over $300. I hope they will come down in price over the next few years. I would replace all the lights in my house, but not at $15-20 per bulb.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mcoursd2006 said:


> Whatever you can do to reduce consumption is a good thing, *even if it doesn't reduce the dent in your wallet significantly*. I recently replaced the 18 GU10 (50w) bulbs in my basement with 8W LED's that were on sale at Costco. Having all the lights on in the basement before would be like a 900W bulb. Now it's 150W. Huge difference, and *it cost $90 to replace all 18 bulbs*. If they weren't on sale the r*eplacement cost would have been over $300*. I hope they will come down in price over the next few years. I would replace all the lights in my house, but not at $15-20 per bulb.


I've had some issues with the CFLs that I bought over the last 3 years. Most if not all are made in China now (is anything still made in NA?) even if they have NA manufacturers names.
Not sure if it's the ballast components in the base of the CFL, but I've had them go defective in a week or two..or sometimes longer. Now that the CFLs are very cheap to buy, (6 pack for $15 or less with a coupon), replacing defective ones (at $2 each) is not such a big cost, BUT LEDs at the current price they charge of ($14.99 each) would. 
The other problem is the light spectrum these LEDs give off...I prefer a warm white light spectrum compared to a bright intense white daylight spectrum..
CFLs have been out for several years now and improvements have been made...I'm sure the same will happen with the LED light eventually. 

here is one users comment on these LED bulbs


> This product is advertised to be equivalent to a 90 watt bulb, yet it does not shine nearly as much as the 65 watt bulbs I had before. The light coming out of this thing is awful! The savings are not worth it to have a quarter of the light I normally would have and the type of light it casts... I understand the benefits of the bulb longevity too, but wow!!
> *I would gladly pay and regularly replace a halogen bulb than put up with this light. I can't even image working outside under this light, I mean the light it casts (5000k) belongs on a floor display of a big store or maybe headlights of a vehicle! Definitely taking it back and getting something else*."


and another "satisfied users" comments


> The light that these LED bulbs produce are quite impressive. Just as good as my old 50w MR-16 bulbs. At 3.5w I'm hoping for a noticeable difference on my hydro bill, as I have bought 10 of them so far. They are pricey but I bought them on sale. *However I bought them a month ago and 2 have blown already, and there supposed to be good for 20,000 hrs*. I will just keep exchanging them. If you buy these bulbs-keep your receipt."


LEDs are SUPPOSED to last thousands of hours....Made in China..what more can we say.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

carverman said:


> LEDs are SUPPOSED to last thousands of hours....Made in China..what more can we say.


One of the 18 LED's I installed (yes, made in CHN) blew out after only two weeks of very limited use. I returned it to Costco, but is this the defective rate of these bulbs, 5-6%? The CFL's are even worse. The older ones which were not the spiral kind seemed to be better. The current ones don't last anywhere near the claimed lifespan. I curse every time I have to replace one.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mcoursd2006 said:


> One of the 18 LED's I installed (yes, made in CHN) blew out after only two weeks of very limited use. I returned it to Costco, but is this the defective rate of these bulbs, 5-6%? The CFL's are even worse. The older ones which were not the spiral kind seemed to be better. The current ones don't last anywhere near the claimed lifespan. I curse every time I have to replace one.


Well, being a (retired) electrical engineer and working for years with semiconductors and LEDs, I can unequivocally state that you WILL NOT GET THOUSAND OF HOURS of these LED bulbs. Some will fail right away due to what they call in the electronic industry "Infant mortality"..defective components used or the amount of current each LED uses to produce enough intense visible spectrum light to make it worth using in an illumination device such as light bulb. The current going through the semiconductor junction that comprises a light emitting diode is proportional to it's realistic (not expected) lifespan.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

carverman said:


> Well, being a (retired) electrical engineer and working for years with semiconductors and LEDs, I can unequivocally state that you WILL NOT GET THOUSAND OF HOURS of these LED bulbs. Some will fail right away due to what they call in the electronic industry "Infant mortality"..defective components used or the amount of current each LED uses to produce enough intense visible spectrum light to make it worth using in an illumination device such as light bulb. The current going through the semiconductor junction that comprises a light emitting diode is proportional to it's realistic (not expected) lifespan.


This is about what I would expect anyway, but it doesn't keep me from complaining and cursing about it.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

To quote Carverman - 
The other problem is the light spectrum these LEDs give off...I prefer a warm white light spectrum compared to a bright intense white daylight spectrum..
CFLs have been out for several years now and improvements have been made...I'm sure the same will happen with the LED light eventually.

As with CFL's, LED's are also available in multiple white 'colour' choices. Unlike incandescent, which seemed to be available only in one colour of white (probably 'warm white'), we now have to get used to light colours which are now called 'Cool White' and 'Warm White' etc. and are sometimes technically referred to as Kelvin colour temperatures (~ 3500K for Warm White; 4100K is White, 5600K is Cool white). I also prefer the Warm White and find the Cool White too intense - for both LED's and CFL's . We also need to learn, or become more familiar with, lumens as a measure of light output rather than Watts which really has nothing to do with light output but a measure of power consumption.

I too am a retired EE - and the conversion to LED's, where appropriate, has become an interesting project (so has converting my hot tub to use a heat exchanger on a gas hot water tank to reduce costs). Heat is a killer for anything electronic and I'm kind of surprised that some LED's run as warm as they do - something like for every 10 deg rise in temperature, life expectancy is reduced by half (for motors anyway). I've had some LED's (from China) that are still going after 3 years (not continuously but used daily), and some were defective right out of the box (lose wire/bad solder joint which I fixed) and some failed after 2-3 months. Interesting to hear that some Costco bulbs have failed quickly too. The LED's are becoming cheaper and cheaper - and I wonder why they are still so expensive - maybe so the CFL manufacturers recoup their costs first.

Yeah - good luck getting 50,000 hours from anything electronic.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

The LED's from Costco do come with a 3 or 4 year warranty, that if it stops working within that time period you can send it back to the manufacturer and they would replace it. But you have to keep the proof of purchase and the original receipt. How many of us keep receipts from Costco for 3-4 years?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mcoursd2006 said:


> This is about what I would expect anyway, but it doesn't keep me from complaining and cursing about it.


Correction: I meant THOUSANDS of hours...not "Thousand" of life from these LED bulbs. If these bulbs are used 10 hrs per day x 7 days x 52 weeks=3640 hrs in a year.
Advertised life is around 20,000 hrs..so theoretically you could get about 5.7 years of useful life from these bulbs. 


Voltage regulation and heat dissipation in a small bulb package is one of the issues. When you consider that most LEDs tolerate only a small voltage applied, the 115=120 volts from household mains has to be well regulated inside the LED light package. 
These built in power regulators have to dissipate a lot heat from unused voltage, just as much as the power of the combined LED bulb or even more. 
Power dissipation creates heat..which starts the breakdown of the semiconductor devices. 

A 12 volt GU10 using the old halogen-tungsten technology isn't affected by the buildup of heat inside the lamp socket like the LEDs are. 

I know they are starting to use them on certain car headlights now and the technology is improving as we speak, but
they are not without a different set of issues on cars..



> “At the moment, most people request over 5,000K. It really depends on the application. If you have a light guide, the colour temperature shifts. You have to remain within regulations,” said Baron, pointing out that her firm offers colour temperature matching across packages so all lights on a car look the same.
> An annoying thing that doesn’t want to go away is the fan.
> Unlike traditional headlamps, which throw heat forward and away as infra-red radiation, *LEDs need to loose heat by conduction from their rear by semiconductor-style heatsinking.*
> *With no heat at the front, LED headlamps c an freeze over in icy weather.*
> ...


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## 4570 (Aug 2, 2009)

Does anyone get good life from CLF bulbs?

I do not.
They are not running too hot, and the house voltage is good.

Is it ok to mention brand names here?


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

they do ok here and I have a lot of voltage transients - dips at least. I have a few that stay on 24/7 with no issues. Need to watch for some cfl's that are not designed for closed fixtures. Others not designed to be installed inverted.

I used to have mostly incandescent bulbs and my hydro bill was a bout $35/month. Now I have all CFL's and my bill is $135/month. 

You have to get the efficient devices but don't expect your hydro bill to ever go down .... lol. These utilities need the revenue. If everyone reduces their consumption, the rates inevitably go up to return the $ to the utility.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hystat said:


> t Need to watch for some cfl's that are not designed for closed fixtures. Others not designed to be installed inverted.


Some will not last that long inverted from ceiling fixtures. Something to do with the heat dissipation I would think.



> I used to have mostly incandescent bulbs and my hydro bill was a bout $35/month. Now I have all CFL's and my bill is $135/month.


It's a conspiracy these smart meters...they expect you to consume a steady amount of kwh. If you use less due to more efficient lighting, the smart meter will just tack on a few kwh so that the hydro bill is what they estimate your consumption to be.

I have one of these kwh tracking devices provided free by Ottawa hydro along with a wi-fi thermostat on my furnace (actually A/C portion) so they can turn the
A/C off for a while on those superhot summer days where everyone is running A/C. I can log into my Ottawa Hydro account and get a bar graph for each day for the
3 tiered rates. 



> *You have to get the efficient devices but don't expect your hydro bill to ever go down .... lol. These utilities need the revenue*. If everyone reduces their consumption, the rates inevitably go up to return the $ to the utility.


You got it. Even if you buy these expensive LED bulbs for $15-$20 each,* you will not be saving any electricity on your hydro bill,* even if the LED bulb only consumes 5 watts..the smart meter reports back to the utilities computer and if the computer thinks your bill is too low,,it will adjust it to be within the normal expected range. The rest is the regulatory charges and the HST.

Ms Howath is promising to "kill the HST" on electricity IF she is elected. Mulcair will fight Harper for her in the H of C, to ensure it happens this time..but only if she becomes Premiere.


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## Andrej (Feb 25, 2010)

Anyone consider that during the winter, when you use your lights the most, incandescent bulbs inefficiency is mostly (if not all) is released as heat? So during times when you are heating your home and using your lights, the waste from your lights isn't nearly as much as you think- it's just lowering your heating bill. .


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

A Smart meter conspiracy???? Adjust your bill to make it what they expect it to be??? Really??? Got any proof of that? Occasionally they estimate meter readings but that is due to missed meter reads - not a conspiracy. I would suspect if they were found to be monkeying around with custody metering someone would be in jail pretty quick. I do agree that if everyone cut their consumption by half, the bills would go up due to regulated revenue requirements and approved rates of return. Same as property taxes - driven by revenue requirements. 

I have lowered my bill by conservation - with many initiatives including LED lights but also nagging everyone to turn the f'ing lights off and don't use the dryer. Kwhrs is Kwhrs. 

Considering incandescent bulbs as not being inefficient because they give off heat isn't realistic. Actually using electricity for heat is inefficient.
I found a conversions where 1 GJ of gas = 945163 BTU = 277 KWh's. (see links below)

http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/energy/kWh_to_BTU.htm
http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/gigajoules-to-kilowatt-hours-conversion.html

1 GJ of gas is about $5.00. $277 Kwhr @ $0.08/kWhr is ~$22.00. (That doesn't include delivery costs which probably doubles the cost to your house). So if you're lucky enough to have gas (for now) until power generation is converted to gas which will drive up the price (or another cold winter) burn gas for heat and don't leave the lights on thinking you are helping to heat the house. Of course there is heat delivered - but it's pretty pricey. Better to turn the lights off and turn the T'stat up if you want it warmer.

The other wonder I have is why in the world do people rent hot water tanks? But I digress.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> A Smart meter conspiracy???? Adjust your bill to make it what they expect it to be??? Really??? Got any proof of that? Occasionally they estimate meter readings but that is due to missed meter reads - not a conspiracy. *I would suspect if they were found to be monkeying around with custody metering someone would be in jail pretty quick.* I do agree that if everyone cut their consumption by half, the bills would go up due to regulated revenue requirements and approved rates of return. Same as property taxes - driven by revenue requirements.
> 
> I have lowered my bill by conservation - with many initiatives including LED lights but also nagging everyone to turn the f'ing lights off and don't use the dryer. Kwhrs is Kwhrs.
> .


You want proof? Track your consumption and RPP before the "smart meters" were introduced. They didn't install the smart meters for YOUR BENEFIT, but for theirs, because they can 
CHARGE YOU MORE for not only the electricity consumed at the tiered rate, but also there is a monthly charge for the meter as well!

time of Use Pricing (Summer Weekdays)
Off-Peak (7 pm to 7 am and all day weekends and holidays)	$0.075/kWh
Mid-Peak (7 am to 11 am and 5 pm to 7 pm)	$0.112/kWh
On-Peak (11 am to 5 pm)	$0.135/kWh

Transmission	$0.0122/kWh
Hydro Ottawa Delivery	$0.0213/kWh
Rate Rider for Disposition of Global Adjustment Account	-$0.0011/kWh**
Hydro Ottawa Fixed Charge	$9.55/month
*Smart Meter Entity Charge	$0.79/month*
Low Voltage Services Charge	$0.00006/kWh
Delivery Line Loss Charge	See below for calculation***
regulatory
Regulatory Charge	$0.0057/kWh****
Debt Retirement
Debt Retirement Charge	$0.00694/kWh****


NO, I CAN'T EXACTLY PROVE TO YOU BECAUSE I CAN'T EXTRACT THE DIFFERENCE AND IT IS SUBTLE

*


> ** The Delivery Line Loss Charge calculation is: (Adjusted Consumption - Unadjusted Consumption) x current month’s energy rate per kWh.
> **** For Standard Supply Service customers (not purchasing the electricity commodity from an electricity retailer), a monthly administration fee of $0.25 is added to the regulatory charge to recover a portion of the cost of systems required for the market.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> A Smart meter conspiracy???? Adjust your bill to make it what they expect it to be??? Really??? Got any proof of that? Occasionally they estimate meter readings but that is due to missed meter reads - not a conspiracy. I would suspect if they were found to be monkeying around with custody metering someone would be in jail pretty quick.
> The other wonder I have is why in the world do people rent hot water tanks? But I digress.


oK, YOU ARE IN ALBERTA and you are entitled to your opinion.

I am in Ontario, where we ARE BEING RIPPED OFF ON HYDRO..........we the consumers and taxpayers of Ontario got ripped off by our Liberal gov't over hydro...most ONTARIO electricity users will vouch for that. Our former premier did not go to jail (so far) for what he has created. 

You can also apply for billing equalization...where the excessive bills (especially during the heating season..and short A/C season is equalized over 12 months,
along with the 6 month increase in the electricity rates. Conspiracy to squeeze more out of the Ontario electricity consumer????? of course not....:barbershop_quartet_



> What will my smart meter do?
> The smart meter system provides a number of significant benefits.
> Measures how much energy you use and when you use it - providing you with the opportunity to take action to reduce your energy bill by:
> Lowering your electricity use during peak (higher price) periods; and
> ...


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

And our power bills have much the same (but different) individual charges as yours do so please don't feel like you're alone in this conspiracy. We have Franchise fees, Dist and Trans charges, Balancing pool charges, Rate riders, Admin Charges and Local Access fees and oh yes - the actual Energy Charge. We don't have the 3 tiered rate structure.
I have a fixed rate contract for energy at $0.08 per kWhr - but by the time it gets delivered to my stove - it is more like $0.22 per kWhr. (But I'm sure glad I know what all those charges are for - not!)


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> And our power bills have much the same (but different) individual charges as yours do so please don't feel like you're alone in this conspiracy. We have Franchise fees, Dist and Trans charges, Balancing pool charges, Rate riders, Admin Charges and Local Access fees and oh yes - the actual Energy Charge. We don't have the 3 tiered rate structure.
> I have a fixed rate contract for energy at $0.08 per kWhr - but by the time it gets delivered to my stove - it is more like $0.22 per kWhr. (But I'm sure glad I know what all those charges are for - not!)


I'm glad you understand my frustration. 

We as consumers KNOW we are being ripped off, with hidden charges (especially if you sign up with an marketer) there are extra charges that the consumer has to
pay for signing up..these benefit the electricity generators, and no doubt add to the HST burden.

My last bill with "*adjusted consumption"* added on averages out to 16c a kwh (all charges and taxes in) ..so compared to yours (022c per kwh)
it's probably not so bad...at least right now because the Fiberals are provided a 10% discount called the Ontario Clean Energy Benefit which will be eliminated in this next (pending) budget if big spender Wynne and her Fiberals get back in. We ahve been warned already that electricity rates will rise by 10% each 6 month period (or maybe yearly) for
the next 5 YEARS..and thats all they can say right now. 


Hopefully the budget will die on election night, but if they get back in..the hydro rates will rise by another 2c per kwh sometime this year and I'm burning CFL in every light
in the house and last year spent about $500 parts and labour to replace the old phase shift fan motor in my furnace with a more energy efficient DCM (Direct Commutated
Motor) retrofit. Can't afford a new furnace right now.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Oh I get your frustration. Calgary owns Enmax - our power distributor/retailer etc. and gets lots of $$ from them yearly because they make so much money - from whom???. More money for Mayor N.N. (some say Numb Nuts) to spend on pet projects like 9.0M cycle paths to make our clogged roads even worse.

And I now get your comments wrt a conspiracy with the smart meters. Not so much the meter but the insidious, small extra charges for everything that drives the $/kwhr ever higher. I too have an old furnace (with a pilot) and can't see the economics of the $5000 furnace change to save some gas not to mention the poor reliability/expensive repairs with the new ones. I'm interested in your motor replacement though. I too still have the old capacitive start motor and don't run it all the time but would love to change this energy hog. It's the original motor (1987) and it lasted this long because I oil the bearings every year). 
Do you have a part number or something you'd share?

Squirrel.....I recently installed a water meter after getting a snotty letter from the city about them cutting off my water if I don't sign up for a meter (they have mandated all houses get water meters by 2014; house sales automatically trigger an installation). Anyway - signed up and only use about 12 m3 per month which actually cuts my bill - should have done this years ago I guess. As part of this, I installed Drake toilets in 3 bathrooms to reduce consumption. Well my calcs show about a 10 year payout - so that wasn't worth it. I sent a note to the city after I got my 3 - $50 rebates saying I won't end up saving any $$ with this retrofit - and I got a note back saying "Thanks for saving water". So the economics aren't there for actually saving $$ with low flush toilets. Another scam IMO. Actually we are saving Water Treatment capacity - not water because it comes in and most goes out. I don't mind reducing though, just don't sell it as saving $$. I'm thinking about catching some waste water from showers and laundry and using that to flush toilets - somehow that must be illegal or not to code though.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Oh I
> And I now get your comments wrt a conspiracy with the smart meters. Not so much the meter but the insidious, small extra charges for everything that drives the $/kwhr ever higher. I too have an old furnace (with a pilot) and can't see the economics of the $5000 furnace change to save some gas not to mention the poor reliability/expensive repairs with the new ones. I'm interested in your motor replacement though. I too still have the old capacitive start motor and don't run it all the time but would love to change this energy hog. It's the original motor (1987) and it lasted this long because I oil the bearings every year).
> Do you have a part number or something you'd share?


Yes..it's called the Evergreen ...Good investment. You can select up to 4 speeds, and it has ramp up/ramp down rpm..it has an intelligent circuit built in and you connect your thermostat heat/cool
control directly into the motor (on a plug into the motor). Motor can run 230/115 operation via a jumper.

Best investment I could make to keep my 18 year old gas furnace (Miller-Nordyne) which is 90% efficient nat gas and very very reliable. The last thing I want is to install a $5K "high effiiciency" gas furnance and have to deal with breakdowns as having to have a service contract ($150 a year) to support it for parts/service. I don't run constant fan speed
only on heat or cool demand. It is about 25% more efficient than the convential PSC motor. Installed by a furnace tech last fall, and it's been great.

It comes with a full service installation manual and very easy to follow directions. There are 4 wires that have to connect to the fan relay on the furnace circuit board,
so if you feel a bit queasy on where these plug in style high voltage wires go, then find a service tech to install it.

Depending on the style of your old PSC motor, you may need to buy a separate mount (called a belly band) to mount the motor inside the blower cage.
Not that difficult to install yourself, but it all depends on your level of confidence and expertise in this area. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8argdl3MU3E

Bought mine in the US at Electric motor warehouse..its in Burton Mi.

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/aosmith/evergreen.htm


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> O
> 
> . So the economics aren't there for actually saving $$ with low flush toilets. Another scam IMO. Actually we are saving Water Treatment capacity - not water because it comes in and most goes out. I don't mind reducing though, just don't sell it as saving $$. I'm thinking about catching some waste water from showers and laundry and using that to flush toilets - somehow that must be illegal or not to code though.


I installed one of those low flush toilets from Home-Depot. It wouldn't call it saving water. For liquid waste..it kind of flushes @6L , but for solid waste, you pretty much have to flush twice to remove everything from the bowl, so it takes 12 litres to flush anyway. Don't really save that much.



> I don't mind reducing though, just don't sell it as saving $$. I'm thinking about catching some waste water from showers and laundry and using that to flush toilets - somehow that must be illegal or not to code though.


Not illegal, I do it. But you have to have a bucket to catch the shower water. 

I don't catch the laundry water from the wash machine as there is that tall pipe that I would have to modify where the drain hose goes by the laundry sink, and it's a pain to carry a bucket of laundry water up the stairs to my upstairs toilet. I try and save what I can and be as frugal as possible, because for every cubic meter of water you use there is the sewer charge, which is going up as well.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Exactly the same reasons I don't want a new furnace either. My parents live in Kanata and some company has been pestering them to upgrade their furnace and they finally have realized it is better to keep the old one operating. I will really investigate these Evergreen motors for my furnace - thanks for the links. I'll install my self - looks like it's pretty simple. I've heard of the belly band mounting thing- something I'd need if my old motor burned out. The motor runs a lot when it's cold here so that would be a good savings. You're lucky you can drive to the border and pick it up and save the outrageous Canada Post and other border charges. Free trade only goes so far. My furnace is older than yours - an old Lennox with a pilot and no real circuit boards to fail - just a temperature switch to turn the fan on when the heat exchange is up to temperature.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Actually I have to say the Toto Drake (4.8LPF) toilets I installed are awesome. The plumbing place recommended it over some dual flush Toto models and other manufacturers. I actually enjoy watching it flush. I've NEVER had to double flush regardless of the load - it works so well. I don't mind paying more for a good design which I appreciate. But at ~$450 they are considerably more than the $150 units at the Big Box stores. So that is why my ROI is poor but I do save water. Now to double use the water. A project!


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Have you guys crunched the numbers on water savings? My municipal water is $1.05 for a cubic metre. That's 1000L. Or 9.5L for a penny. Save water because you feel good about it, because there are far better places to save money.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Exactly the same reasons I don't want a new furnace either. My parents live in Kanata and some company has been pestering them to upgrade their furnace and they finally have realized it is better to keep the old one operating. I will really investigate these Evergreen motors for my furnace - thanks for the links. I'll install my self - looks like it's pretty simple. I've heard of the belly band mounting thing- something I'd need if my old motor burned out. The motor runs a lot when it's cold here so that would be a good savings. You're lucky you can drive to the border and pick it up and save the outrageous Canada Post and other border charges. Free trade only goes so far. My furnace is older than yours - an old Lennox with a pilot and no real circuit boards to fail - just a temperature switch to turn the fan on when the heat exchange is up to temperature.


I had it shipped by CP. It wasn't that much for shipping. Can't drive anymore. Mine is a 1/2 hp motor, so if the wattage thing is any indication of consumption, here is the math. 

Lets say the old 1/2hp PSC motor is 60% efficient...thats 5.4 amps at 115vAC (so if you convert that to Volt/Amps power..it's 621 watts it is using for 1 hour of running and thats
about a .6 Kwh it consumes per hour. If you are paying 22c per kwh = its about 13.2 cents on your hydro bill for each hour of running. Now it may not run for an hour, but on the
coldest winter nights when it runs (based on the thermo heat anticipator) every 10 mins run/10 mins off /60 mins = 3 times per hr (30 min of running ) / 24hrs =12 hrs x .6kwh = 7 to 8 kwh consumed per day (coldest days of course) = 8kwhx 22c = $1.75 per day...or $52 per month if you pay by the month. 


The DCM (permanent magnet commutated dc motor is roughly 25% more efficient (maybe more) but lets use the 25% figure they suggest..thats 6 kwh PER DAY ( instead of 8kwh PER DAY )x 30 days = 180kwh x 22cents (loaded rate) works out to $39.00 per month on your hydro bill .........instead of 240kwh with the old PSC motor. (Difference = $13 per month) 

That's a saving of 60kwh per month (Nov - March) x 5 months = 300kwh x 22c =$66 saving over the first winter x 10 years (assuming you can get 10 more years out of your old furnace) = $660 saving on your hydro bill...and that is assuming that electricity rate DO NOT go up in 10 years..and in today's economy that's not possible .

(1 HP = 745.699872 watts)

True Horsepower 
(Induction Motor) Amperage at 115VAC: 50% / 60% / 70% Efficiencies ------- Amperage at 230VAC: 50% / 60% / 70% Efficiencies 
1/4 3.2 / 2.7 / 2.3 ---------------------- 1.6 / 1.4 / 1.2 
1/3 4.3 / 3.6 /3.1 --------------------------1.2 / 1.8 / 1.5 
*1/2 hp 6.5 / 5.4 / 4.6 ------------------------ 3.2 / 2.7 / 2.3 *
2/3 8.6 / 7.2 / 6.2 -----------4.3 / 3.6 / 3.1 
3/4 9.7 / 8.1 / 6.0 -----------4.9 / 4.1 / 3.5


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> Have you guys crunched the numbers on water savings? My municipal water is $1.05 for a cubic metre. That's 1000L. Or 9.5L for a penny. Save water because you feel good about it, because there are far better places to save money.


Ya, we know..but I like to be frugal..and waste not-want not. ..it makes me feel good to save $3 a month on my water bill/sewer charges which are 1.5x water charge, for others, it may not be worth it


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Yes I have crunched the numbers. In Calgary we have monthly fixed/base charges for Water & Sewer ($16.80 Water & $27.04 Sewer) and Variable Rates of $1.7175 Water & $1.01 Sewer /M3. So based on that monthly usage of 10M3 costs $71.11 (or $7.11 /m3 plus GST). 20 M3 cost $98.38 or $4.91/M3. So the more you use, the less the per M3 charge is. No high usage charges. But of course as people start to conserve, these rates will go up are revenue requirements kick in. The latest SNAFU is that they have realized that the system is under designed and up to capacity and is a restriction to growth - so rates will go up to pay for new infrastructure. No ownership of design screw-ups of course. 
So you asked about water savings - based on the above rates I looked at 13.9 LPF toilet versus 4.8 LPF. Assuming 12 flushes per day I figured I'd save 3.3 M3 per month ((13.9-4.8) *12*30). Using only the variable rate (because I have to pay the fixed charge anyway) and without strenuous calcs - that is about ($2.70/M3 * 3.3M3) = $9 per month or $100 per year. 3 Toto Drake toilets cost about $1300 so without interest that is a 13 year payout. Cheaper toilets would have a better ROI if they worked - but double flushing would negate any savings.

Better to practice "If it's yellow, let it mellow; If it's brown, flush it down" and invest your money somewhere else. But then you wouldn't feel so good about saving water (treatment).


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Brian K said:


> I'm thinking about catching some waste water from showers and laundry and using that to flush toilets - somehow that must be illegal or not to code though.


Search Grey water recycling systems. It depends on the province. I believe it was not allowed in Alberta, but may be now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greywater
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/03-100-e.htm

It increases costs at buildout as you need two plumbing systems (grey water and black water) and a tank and pump in the basement. But it vastly reduces your water use (though probably doesn't save much money).

I know a few new builds here in Edmonton installed all the grey water equipment and tanks, but did not connect it all (couldn't get occupancy permit otherwise) and then connected it afterwards.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)




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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Y Cheaper toilets would have a better ROI if they worked - but double flushing would negate any savings.
> 
> Better to practice "If it's yellow, let it mellow; If it's brown, flush it down" and invest your money somewhere else. But then you wouldn't feel so good about saving water (treatment).


You know Brian...there are some things in life where you can't think of buying or using it..in terms of ROI. Toilets are a basic necessity of human life. If ya gotta go..ya gotta go..and
no matter what it costs..it's worth it. Saving water and keeping some money in your pocket is not a bad thing..but in the end..it's the quality of life that counts.
When somebody is lying in a hospital bed with tubes and bags strapped to them so they can't move..being able to use a toilet without encumberances is something you never forget.

Now this DCM motor I installed in my 18 year old furnace last year...some would say.why bother spending the money..it's an old furnace and you should really replace it with the
latest and greatest state-of-the-art-99% efficiency-wifi capable-smart furnace..ok..thats $5K plus taxes. Now when you think of ROI..*WILL*you get 20 years out of this new furnace
without having the service man on call each time you use it?...*don't think so*. The steel they used these days in the heat exchangers is recycled steel..maybe from melted down
old cars with impurities. Nickel is expensive, so is copper these days. Most of the steel is low grade..unless you pay for restaurant quality stainless steel and that costs small fortune.

I was hunting for house insurance a couple months ago and one of the agents I called fora quote..asked how old the furnace was.."18 years"...Hmmm the agent says..let me check with
my boss:...comes back...and tells me.."You really should be replacing that furnace..it's too old!"....Too old I exclaim...it's a furnace for crikey sakes...not a car...as long as it heats
and cools in the summer and the Carbon monoxide monitor I have upstairs and downstairs doesn't go off...I'm good to go..that $5K plus taxes might as well stay in my pocket a 
bit longer..and I hung up on her.

So as far as this new fan motor..sure it was over $300, but I see it as an energy efficiency improvement..not a return on investment..just like the $5K of insulation I'm putting in this
week to upgrade my house. The insulation upgrade may save me 10-20% on my annual nat gas heating bill..*BUT if I ONLY SEE THIS as an ROI.*...I'll be dead a few years in my grave
before the payback occurs on a $1K-$1200 annual gas bill that includes an OWNED AND SELF INSTALLED GE smart tank...with a pilot..14 years old now...

I'm sure that the insurance agent would be telling me..*your HWT,furnace, plumbing, toilets and house ..... and you too!)* ..are JUST TOO OLD FOR US TO INSURE!:biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

nobleea said:


> Search Grey water recycling systems. It depends on the province. I believe it was not allowed in Alberta, but may be now.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greywater
> http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publications/en/rh-pr/tech/03-100-e.htm
> 
> ...


How many thousands will it take to save a few dollars on a water/sewer bill? I'm sure the local plumbers would be happy for a several hundred, maybe thousands to tap into the sink drains and
run that into a tank in the basement, then a motor to pump it back up the the main floor toilet and into a modified tank (or is this a $2K special toilet with no tank?) to do a flush.
But even if cost is no object..what happens when you need to do a flush and you run out of grey water? Oh..I see..run some cold water into a bucket.....


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for sending the links. Not surprizing that Canadian codes wait until US codes change, then adopt them with the inevitable slight adjustments to make them oour own. While I definitely understand the need to have standards so people don't kill themselves, I really don't know why we bother to have separate Canadian ones. Does anyone really think US codes are not good enough or we're smarter than they are? However if enough people push for this type of dual water system - changes will happen - too bad so slowly. This article is 2009 vintage - no changes since then.
The key to making these initiatives cost effective is to be able to do it yourself. If you have to pay someone to do it then there is probably no ROI except the feel good "I'm reducing consumption' part of it which is good too.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


>


LoL! One year around 6-7 years ago, I spent the entire summer (5 months) at a trailer park. Didn't use any water in my house and nobody watered my plant or lawn.
The water sewer/bill/fire supply bill showed a negative usage for two straight billings.

In September,I was given notice by the city they wanted to come into the house and change the water meter,
since they felt there was something wrong with the water meter. I phoned them and advised them, I had been away all summer.

They didn't quite believe me and changed my meter anyway.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

But with the fixed fee for the joy of being connected, you still had a bill even with no usage. With no usage, my bill for Water & Sewer would still be $43.84 (plus GST of course).
We also have a cabin in the country on a well. The water is basically free - just pay the pumping cost. Although I did replace the well pump myself for $500 after 35 years.
I wonder how it went negative.

I have an acquaintance in California who has recently installed a grey water system himself to water his lawn - a bit of piping, a holding tank, a pump and pressure switch combo and he is away to the races. Nice to see (via the links) that his setup is probably legal or at least allowed - he didn't get a permit or get it inspected though. Funny - it still works!
He got parts from Harbour Freight Tools (like Princess Auto here) so were cost effective.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> But with the fixed fee for the joy of being connected, you still had a bill even with no usage. With no usage, my bill for Water & Sewer would still be $43.84 (plus GST of course).
> We also have a cabin in the country on a well. The water is basically free - just pay the pumping cost. Although I did replace the well pump myself for $500 after 35 years.
> I wonder how it went negative.


I'm glad that at least in Ottawa, you still pay for usage and a fixed rate per residential unit for fire supply. That may change in the future with a monthly "connection charge" similar to nat gas
and electricity...but so far it is a bargain compared to any other utility.


> I have an acquaintance in California who has recently installed a grey water system himself to water his lawn - a bit of piping, a holding tank, a pump and pressure switch combo and he is away to the races. Nice to see (via the links) that his setup is probably legal or at least allowed - he didn't get a permit or get it inspected though. Funny - it still works!
> He got parts from Harbour Freight Tools (like Princess Auto here) so were cost effective.


Novel idea..but with grey water containing detergents, chlorine, household chemicals, dishwater grease, and human residue (skin cells, hair etc), it isn't such a good idea to run this
stuff fhrough sprinklers to make the grass grow. It could encourage more than the grass to grow.
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/use-grey-water-lawn-irrigation-74515.html



> Use plant-friendly soaps that are biodegradable, and low in sodium, phosphorus, chloride and boron.
> Distribute the greywater evenly across all plants in the garden as overwatering can kill them easily.
> 
> 
> > Use greywater within 24 hours of storage to avoid bacteria formation.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I change my own hot water tank too - and I hear that in 2015 the natural draft venting units that we mostly used now won't be available anymore and only the power vent and other more efficient models will be available - kind of good, but the big downside is that you will need a new chimney (liner) with these new tanks. This is similar to the regulations that outlawed less that high efficiency furnaces.
So if the water tank fails and you call for a replacement, get ready for a big bill and not a 2-3 hour replacement because the chimney will need to be upgraded. A local plumbing supply place said that people will need appointments now and probably a service call to scope out the requirements (more $$).
I'm planning to buy a spare tank sometime this year and just keep it in the basement. 
Probably a good idea to verify this in your area and if you have an old tank, upgrade it this year rather than wait.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Brian K said:


> but the big downside is that you will need a new chimney (liner) with these new tanks.


You also have the option to vent out the wall for no additional cost. I no longer use a chimney, both the furnace and water heater vent through the basement wall.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

How do you vent out the side wall for no additional cost?
I still have the old roof chimney (stainless assembly up the inside the house). I see the houses where they have new furnaces/water tanks that use the pipe out the side of the house for exhaust and intake air- great as long as it is easy to do and access is there. A real PITA if the only way out is through the developed part of the basement.

My point is - some (including me) will face more costs and time delays once they phase out the natural draft water heaters. I though you also had a 14 year old conventional water heater that you changed - I didn't think (been wrong before) that these could be vented out a side wall and had to go up through a roof. I have an overhead garage heater that vents out the side wall but it is not a natural draft type. Am I wrong again???


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I change my own hot water tank too - and I hear that in 2015 the natural draft venting units that we mostly used now won't be available anymore and only the power vent and other more efficient models will be available - kind of good, but the big downside is that you will need a new chimney (liner) with these new tanks. This is similar to the regulations that outlawed less that high efficiency furnaces.
> *So if the water tank fails and you call for a replacement, get ready for a big bill and not a 2-3 hour replacement because the chimney will need to be upgraded. A local plumbing supply place said that people will need appointments now and probably a service call to scope out the requirements (more $$).*
> I'm planning to buy a spare tank sometime this year and just keep it in the basement.
> *Probably a good idea to verify this in your area and if you have an old tank, upgrade it this year rather than wait*.


Yowsa! I had my chimney liner upgraded about 5 years ago, since both my natural draft GE tank and my Miller-Nordyne gas furnace vent through the chimney. I really don't want to get into these power venter (motor) HWT, not only are they more expensive, but more things to go wrong. I believe in the KISS principle..and if it ain't broke..don;t fix it..or modify it.

I just inquired at my local H-D to see if the conventional draft HWT are in supply..and they still are. I can get a normal draft Hotpoint 40USgal tank for $395. These are now piezo
pilot start...so you don't need to reach way in with a long match to light the pilot..that is the upside....on the downside..the piezo and pilot control is not that
reliable..as a couple of tank purchasers mentioned they had to call GE for the warranty replacement. I also noticed that they are now mostly 6 year pro rated
warranties...no more 9 years.

My current GE smarttank is 14 years old. I expect to squeeze another year or two out of it, but I will be buying one of the newer tanks as a spare in case I need to swap it
out. Since I did the first one myself, I can supervise and advise my friend how to connect the gas lines and the the hot/cold copper lines...its not rocket science.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> Yowsa! I had my chimney liner upgraded about 5 years ago, since both my natural draft GE tank and my Miller-Nordyne gas furnace vent through the chimney. I really don't want to get into these
> induced draft (motor) HWT, not only are they more expensive, but more things to go wrong. I believe in the KISS principle..and if it ain't broke..don;t fix it..or modify it.


High efficiency furnaces = lifetime service plan at $150-$200 a year..just too many things to go wrong with them. My next door neighbor installed and I see the service trucks a lot at her place fixing it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Brian K said:


> How do you vent out the side wall for no additional cost?
> I still have the old roof chimney (stainless assembly up the inside the house). I see the houses where they have new furnaces/water tanks that use the pipe out the side of the house for exhaust and intake air- great as long as it is easy to do and access is there. A real PITA if the only way out is through the developed part of the basement.
> 
> My point is - some (including me) will face more costs and time delays once they phase out the natural draft water heaters. I though you also had a 14 year old conventional water heater that you changed - I didn't think (been wrong before) that these could be vented out a side wall and had to go up through a roof. I have an overhead garage heater that vents out the side wall but it is not a natural draft type. Am I wrong again???


When my standard water heater was replaced with a power vent model I opted to exhaust through the side wall instead of getting a new liner for the chimney, that liner would have been at least $900 extra. They did not charge me anything to drill the exhaust vent hole and my existing chimney has now become an extra attic vent.

I would agree with saving money on keeping an extra natural draft water heater around, just watch out if the do change the building codes for that or you may just get stuck with one that you can't use.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> High efficiency furnaces = lifetime service plan at $150-$200 a year..just too many things to go wrong with them. My next door neighbor installed and I see the service trucks a lot at her place fixing it.


A number of places will run "off-season" furnace cleaning/inspection for less than $100, I've seen as low as $80. Me and a few friends got new HE furnaces installed a few years back, none of us have had any problems to date.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

On the natural draft water heater front, yes, I too have one small, 40USG. It suits our low flow shower head lifestyle just fine. It is 11 years old now.

I drain a bit out of the bottom every year when I vacuum out the furnace blower motor as a bit of spring cleaning. This allegedly gets rid of sediment that can become an insulator if allowed to silt at still at the bottom of the tank after a few years.

Five years ago I pulled the sacrificial anode out of the top of the tank to take a peek at its state. Not a spot of corrosion on it, so I guess my water here is not very reactive.

I do subscribe to the kiss principle, but also am balancing the ultimate replacement with a power vented model. I would do that mostly to get rid of the b vent that acts as a unwanted open chimney that creates a negative pressure to suck cold air into the house in the winter, and hot humid air in to some degree in the summer when the a/c is on.

The upgrade I do want to do is a DWHR - suck the hot out of drain water to pre warm water going to the hot water heater. Cuts gas consumption to heat water while people shower. If I do a full bath renovation first I will run a dedicated cold water feed to the shower mixing valve, with the goal of hooking it to the output of the DWHR once that project goes forward. 

I maintain my own high efficiency furnace. Occasionally prime some water traps in pressure sensing tubes, and have changed the ignitor once.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> When my standard water heater was replaced with a power vent model I opted to exhaust through the side wall instead of getting a new liner for the chimney, that liner would have been at least $900 extra. They did not charge me anything to drill the exhaust vent hole and my existing chimney has now become an extra attic vent.
> 
> I would agree with saving money on keeping an extra natural draft water heater around, just watch out if the do change the building codes for that or you may just get stuck with one that you can't use.


My current one is self installed and inspected by Enbridge in 2000. The chimney venting was all upgraded to the current spec by a heating/cooling contractor. I have the receipts to prove it.

Based on my age and the fact that I may not be around in 20 years time, I'm opting for another simple venting tank and keep it in a corner in the basement. I have the tools and the procedure from the last one to change the same size of tank from old to new.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ponderling said:


> The upgrade I do want to do is a DWHR - *suck the hot out of drain water to pre warm water going to the hot water heater. Cuts gas consumption to heat water while people shower. * If I do a full bath renovation first I will run a dedicated cold water feed to the shower mixing valve, with the goal of hooking it to the output of the DWHR once that project goes forward.
> 
> I maintain my own high efficiency furnace. Occasionally prime some water traps in pressure sensing tubes, and have changed the ignitor once.


Hmmm,,if the cold supply from the street is as cold as it was this winter in December/Jan/Feb..good luck with that as it only cuts energy (nat gas) use by 5 to 10%.

At 5% ($555 + $73 HST + Installation ($300) you are in the $1000 range for this upgrade. At $50 a year energy saving (assume 20c per cu meter)..thats roughly 250cu meters of gas that you would need
to save per year to make this pay for itself in 20 years. If you use a lot of hot water, then maybe the payback will be faster, I don't know.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/pow...xAADg&ef_id=UzmPkQAABa4fqvdm:20140604210114:s


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I also inspect and change the anode in my tank about every 3 years. We have a water softener and that is a killer to water heaters in spite of the ad's saying "make your appliances last longer". There is a difference in anodes if you have a water softener or not. One is aluminium and one is magnesium. I think the anodes with the weld spot on the top nut are aluminium (for use without a softener) and the flat top nuts (no weld spot) are used with softeners. 
I've heard about the heat exchangers and thought that was a good idea. It seems tanks fail more often in winter so there must be something to the thermal shock they experience.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I've heard about the heat exchangers and thought that was a good idea. It seems t*anks fail more often in winter so there must be something to the thermal shock they experience.*


First I've heard of that. Are you talking electric with both top 3000watt element and the bottom element at 2500 watts? 

I would expect that the cold would mix with the warm at the bottom of the tank and equalize the temperature inside. 

http://homerepair.about.com/od/plumbingrepair/ss/hwh_tank_gas.htm

I suppose that if you are running these tanks at boiling point (100C), yes that would be a thermal shock to these tanks, but if my GE tank is any indicator,
you can't even get it past 140F. They do that on purpose so people don't scald themselves and sue the manufacturer.

So far mine is 14 years old, has experienced one of the coldest winters in Ottawa in many years (25?) and it's still working fine...but YMMV as they say. I'm going to order a spare as soon as the roofing job is paid off in a couple months.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I've noticed that my gas water heaters have failed more often in the colder months - just me noticing and somewhere I heard about the cold water shock. The cold water inlet has a plastic dip tube which directs the inlet water to the bottom of the tank to get heated, and hot goes out the top. Sometimes they break off and you get a short circuiting effect where the cold comes in and goes right over to the hot outlet - thus they sell replacement dip tubes. No electric hot water tank for me - too expensive to run here. Apparently while venting codes were getting monkeyed with over the last few years, builders of new homes were installing electric HWTs rather than gas ones and get called on the installation not meeting venting codes. The resulting power bills shocked the new home owners.

I've been able to turn my tank temperature up pretty high but it's too hot so I turn it back to the normal mark on the dial.

I hear that Ottawa's water is easier on HWT's than in some areas of the country. You're luckier than we are here. My parents in Kanata also have a 12 year old HWT and I think I'll at least buy them a replacement next time I visit this year - probably at HD or Lowes. I wondered about changing their anode last visit but it is not easily changeable and the plumbing place said there is very little problem with Ottawa water affecting hot water tanks & anodes. They will have an big cost when the time comes to replace it with a power vent one. But they're in their 80's so a new tank now would probably be the last one they replace in that house.

I also read on some plumbing forums about the 6,9,& 12 year warranties on HWT's. Apparently the only difference is the price. People are probably realizing this and not buying the longer warranty tanks anymore. I have a Sears HWT though and it has 2 anodes. Most just have 1.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I've noticed that my gas water heaters have failed more often in the colder months - just me noticing and somewhere I heard about the cold water shock. The cold water inlet has a plastic dip tube which directs the inlet water to the bottom of the tank to get heated, and hot goes out the top. Sometimes they break off and you get a short circuiting effect where the cold comes in and goes right over to the hot outlet - thus they sell replacement dip tubes. No electric hot water tank for me - too expensive to run here. Apparently while venting codes were getting monkeyed with over the last few years, builders of new homes were installing electric HWTs rather than gas ones and get called on the installation not meeting venting codes. *The resulting power bills shocked the new home owners*.


What's new? Electricity in the last 10 years here in Ontario has become an expensive commodity due to mismanagement and waste. Everyone is complaining and this could very well be the
straw that breaks the camel's back and brings down the current Liberal gov't. I didn't realize that they cheapened the construction and started to use plastic tubes. Sounds like another
product made in China these days. 



> I've been able to turn my tank temperature up pretty high but it's too hot so I turn it back to the normal mark on the dial.


Not so with my 9 yr warranty GE "smart tank" . They do indicate the max of 140F on the literature...I run it about130F to save a bit on fuel and since I don't have a dishwasher and do cold
water washing, it's fine for me with my water saver shower head. 



> I hear that Ottawa's water is easier on HWT's than in some areas of the country. You're luckier than we are here. My parents in Kanata also have a 12 year old HWT and I think I'll at least buy them a replacement next time I visit this year - probably at HD or Lowes. I wondered about changing their anode last visit but it is not easily changeable and the plumbing place said there is very little problem with Ottawa water affecting hot water tanks & anodes. They will have an big cost when the time comes to replace it with a power vent one. But they're in their 80's so a new tank now would probably be the last one they replace in that house.


I have never been able to get that big nut (at the back) where the sacrificial anode is, loose..even with a large pipe wrench on it.
I'm scared now, after nearly 14 years to touch it..in case something snaps and that would mean having to replace the tank right away.

I will go ahead and get a Hotpoint (GE) tank at H-D next month and keep it as a spare, in case my current one (advertised as glass lined)
eventually springs a leak...but after nearly 14 years..it's still fine...but I don't expect the next one to last that long, so I may be replacing it sooner.



> I also read on some plumbing forums about the 6,9,& 12 year warranties on HWT's. Apparently the only difference is the price. People are probably realizing this and not buying the longer warranty tanks anymore. I have a Sears HWT though and it has 2 anodes. Most just have 1.


The other issue besides the extended warranty price is the replacement timing of the parts. You have to get the manufacturer replace the parts. That means delays in shipping etc and how
long can you be without a HWT...no wonder 95% of the houses in Ontario have rentals. If you pay the monthly fee and rent them, the rental company has to fix it (or replace it) under
emergency schedules. You just turn off the hot/cold shut off valves and run the house on cold street water until its fixed.

With a self owned..it's another matter and it's more of a crap shoot as to when the tank is operational or replaced. By the time you call in a plumber/gas tech combination repairman,
it could run you a few hundred besides the cost of the tank itself....so you either pay them upfront on a monthly basis + HST ..or pay them later when the new tank has to go in.
There is no use calling a repairman on a 6 yr warranty tank after 6 yrs or more...it's not cost effective. Once the warranty expires on the tank (assuming you don't have warranty
hassles and have the original bill of sale) that could very well be it. Another $500 + depending on the style and capacity + installation.

Now in my case, I still consider myself a winner at the tank rental game. I removed the rental myself in Sept 2000 and had Endbridge pick up their rental tank for free.
Assuming $20 a month rental saved +hst , that's 168 months in Sept of this year that my self owned/installed tank has served me with an initial cost of $399 minus $3360 in rental + $436 (HST)
...I'm winning at this game..$3346 in my pocket VS the rental companies..and how many of the most expensive tank can you buy at H-D/Lowes for that money...at least 3 tanks.

So using just the math of simple economics with the possibility of reliability hassles that you have to handle on your own..its 3 tanks @9yr warranty x $494 + hst = $1674.66 
Sure, I may have to pay for the installation (2-3hrs of labour)..but the simple economics still tells me.it's cheaper to own these conventional tanks than rent them.

I have no experience on the forced draft with venting through the basement wall nor these very expensive demand style heaters...I'm sure there may be some issues with these as
well. Last year and the years before there were "tank rental scams" going around door to door "We are here to upgrade your water heater" and many home owners got scammed
by them signing up for very expensive rental contracts..it's lucrative business because very few home owners have the inclination or time to understand them and predict how
long they are supposed to last these days. 
=


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

To replace the anode - I bought an electric impact wrench at Canadian Tire and I also use it when I swap my winter tires. I got a nut 1 1/16 I think at a pawn shop. I put some liquid wrench on the nut threads a few minutes before I take it out. Ear plugs are a must when this thing starts hammering. First anode I removed looked like a coat hanger wire hanging off the nut. It is supposed to look like a 1/2" aluminium colour tube - sort of like a copper water pipe but solid. I couldn't take it out with a wrench. 
The plastic tube is just a dip stick to move the cold water on the inlet to the bottom of the tank. I've never had a problem with that.

I cold never understand the whole hot water tank rental thing - very rare in Alberta. Some say "peace of mind" but there are lots of plumbing companies that do emergency HWT tank replacements. A local one here says $1000 to supply and install a 40 gallon tank. Nothing special about it. Look in the Yellow pages and phone them. When my parents moved to Ottawa the house came with a 10 year old tank and a rental contract. They phone Enbridge and the buy out was about $20 which they paid and the tank is theirs. So 3 years later - the tank is still working and they are way ahead. So - a new tank purchase this year for ~ $500, I'll replace the old one, and they stay ahead - and they're already ahead. I've never had anything on my tanks fail except when they spring a leak - a new tank is required - no replacing just the tank itself. Actually when a tank fails - I remove the burner assembly including thermocouple, thermal and the drain valve. (I used these to replace parts on a flooded HWT at my cabin and the tank is back in service heating my hot tub).

I've heard the new "on demand' tanks need to be cleaned yearly. I think this involves draining the water and running a chemical through it (maybe vinegar or CLR) to remove the calcium build up (if you have any). But they will fail eventually.

Well we've drifted off the OP's original question about power contracts - I hope everyone is enjoying our exchanges - it does have to do with energy and being frugal (wife calls it cheap)!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> To replace the anode - I bought an *electric impact wrench at Canadian Tire and I also use it when I swap my winter tires. *I got a nut 1 1/16 I think at a pawn shop. I put some liquid wrench on the nut threads a few minutes before I take it out. Ear plugs are a must when this thing starts hammering. First anode I removed looked like a coat hanger wire hanging off the nut. It is supposed to look like a 1/2" aluminium colour tube - sort of like a copper water pipe but solid.* I couldn't take it out with a wrench.*
> The plastic tube is just a dip stick to move the cold water on the inlet to the bottom of the tank. I've never had a problem with that.



Ah thats it..I need some Man Tools! I need to get one of those. My friend was struggling yesterday trying to get his winter tires off with an old fashioned X wrench. 
Had to use penetrating oil and a piece of pipe to break free some of them. 



> I could never understand the whole hot water tank rental thing - very rare in Alberta. Some say "peace of mind" but there are lots of plumbing companies that do emergency HWT tank replacements. A local one here says $1000 to supply and install a 40 gallon tank. Nothing special about it. Look in the Yellow pages and phone them. When my parents moved to Ottawa the house came with a 10 year old tank and a rental contract. They phone Enbridge and the buy out was about $20 which they paid and the tank is theirs. So 3 years later - the tank is still working and they are way ahead. So - a new tank purchase this year for ~ $500, I'll replace the old one, and they stay ahead - and they're already ahead. I've never had anything on my tanks fail except when they spring a leak - a new tank is required - no replacing just the tank itself. Actually when a tank fails - I remove the burner assembly including thermocouple, thermal and the drain valve. (I used these to replace parts on a flooded HWT at my cabin and the tank is back in service heating my hot tub).


Most homeowners when they think of nat gas and appliances that run off them..they get very nervous to touch them...yet everybody has no problems connecting
and disconnecting BBQ propane tanks.
Of course..there is some skill with swapping tanks..you need to get the threaded stubs first, some pipe thread compound, the 1 inch to 3/4 inch (or 1/2 inch) copper pipe adapters,
a propane torch, some solder and solder flux...not quite as easy as calling up Mr Plumber to sell you a new one and charge that on your CC. 



> I've heard the new "on demand' tanks need to be cleaned yearly. I think this involves draining the water and running a chemical through it (maybe vinegar or CLR) to remove the calcium build up (if you have any). But they will fail eventually.


..and if you cant do that yourself, you set up a yearly maintenance contract for $100 for the tank and $150 for cleaning the furnace filter....good money..why didn't I get into that years ago instead of working for Nortel..I could have been a self made rich man by now.

No such thing as "cheap power" anymore..its about to become more expensive every year. The gennys run 24/7..and all we get is a slight discount on the lowest tiered rate. NaT Gas home generators are too expensive to run, so is Solar and you can't run windpower in your back yard.or even hang a clothesline anymore!


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