# Paying for housecleaning



## MoneyGal

OK, this is something I've wondered about for YEARS and I decided to ask here. 

How do people justify the cost of paying for regular housecleaning? 

I don't mean "why do they do it," or "how can they afford it" -- but assuming you have someone clean your house for 4 hours once a week, and they charge $15/hour - that's $240/month, or almost $3000 per year. 

Is it that...people think $3000/year is "not that much" or is it that they never add up the amount, or is it that their overall spending is high enough that an extra $240/month kind of goes unnoticed in the general ebb and flow of their day-to-day finances...or what?

I know a lot of people who pay for housecleaners and people regularly suggest it to me, as well. But I'm confused about how, when someone starts to plan for this expense in their life, they don't say "Well! That's out of the question - I'm not paying $3000/year for someone to mop my floors!"

???


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## leoc2

I agree that it is too expensive and I also say the same thing about the cost of a fancy cell phone plan.


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## baker3232

Don't use it myself, but a young lady who worked for me a few years ago started doing it on the side for a few extra bucks. She put an ad in the local paper, small town Nova scotia, and the response was so heavy that she had to turn down lots of people, and this is a mostly rural area. I could see it more in the urban areas. After that she resigned from her job, my loss, Three years later she still does cleaning as her full time job and is as busy as she wishes to be.


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## kcowan

Our cost is $2600/yr. We treat it as another budget item like insurance, or dining out. Granted it started when we both worked. But she is like a member of the family now. She will cat-sit for nothing as well. She even came to PV to visit us this season. (I think depreciation on new cars is a really obscene expense. But it is different strokes for different folks.)


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## Ihatetaxes

I pay $90 for 4 hours, a wonderful woman who does a great job. I am paying her $22.50 an hour while I am off at work making well over $100 per hour so I view it as money well spent. LOVE coming home to a sparkling house and am debating having her come more often.

Tomorrow I have a company coming to clean my windows for $115. Again, money well spent in my opinion as I don't have to climb ladders and risk breaking my neck.


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## MoneyGal

It really is different strokes for different folks. Interesting for me to think about. I'm not sure what I pay for that others would consider unjustifiable. We do pay a lot of money for cell phone plans but my employer(s) have always footed most of the bill and I am on the road a lot, so this for me has been a (small) justifiable expense. Hmmm. 

I spend a lot on clothes (in my opinion) but this seems like an unavoidable work-related expense. Hmmm. I'm going to keep thinking. 

I can understand the *impetus* to pay for housecleaning, and I have considered it many times. It's just when I contemplate actually spending the money that I get wiggly. If the affordability measure is that the housecleaner costs 20% of your hourly wage, I could certainly afford it (but you are comparing before- and after-tax apples there). I just value insourcing as much as I can. I just made all of the bread we're going to eat for the week.


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## kcowan

MoneyGal said:


> I just made all of the bread we're going to eat for the week.


I think any investment that improves your quality of life is worth it. This includes home cooking and baking IF you like it. 

I used to like nice shiny new cars, but I got it out of my system when I could justify it. Our 1993 Explorer is still shiny and the leather is pristine. I get no ego strokes out of admiring glances while driving. Being invisible IS an advantage when driving.

But the problem as I see it is that you need to set a budget that includes all your priorities. I do my own taxes because it keeps me in tune with our tax system. For 3 days, I sweat the details but I consider it to be a refresher course in what matters tax-wise. Most of my friends outsource this activity. I don't question them and vice versa.

Most people would be shocked by our entertainment budget and our travel budget but not our housekeeper budget!


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## MoneyGal

I thought of something! I spend frivolously on getting my nails done. :02.47-tranquillity:


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## Jungle

Disability and old age easily justifies the cost.
A family member put a website for cleaning houses and this gives her full time work.. doing local houses. people that do not have the time, (or do not make time) too lazy, etc.

My aunt used to get it done, they both worked a full career and never had kids, so they money was there. Their other spending was not excessive from my observation.


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## Jungle

For me I see a business oppertunity, but the labour costs really eat the profit margins. The company that cleans the building I work in is huge, but they pay the workers nothing.. they seem to be off the boat or something.


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## caricole

After reading a few post...it looks to me...

Some husbands are going to be slapped wit a housecleanig bill thanks to the initiative of MG....:hopelessness:

What's the biggest post in a household budget ? You hear about everything, car, lodging, food etc. Very few will think of «INCOMETAXES» "Oh I did not think of that" and giving this important part to the so-called «PROFESSIONALS» who's interest is only CHARGING YOU

Same with investments....«Oh I rely on my investment counseler» who charge an arm an a leg and makes you beleive «HE KNOWS ALL AND YOU KNOW NOTHING» The financial institutions are full of it

caricole could go on forever with people who have forgotten to take pleasure in doing their own affairs...and looking satisfied to their own accomplishments....even if they are not PERFECT:encouragement:


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## donald

I can totally see why middle class or upper middle class would hire a cleaning co.(leaving the obvoius high net worth people out of the ?)If both partners are working full time,raising kids,carving timeout for social activities,going to the gym ect ect,It's one less "burden" to tackle when one comes home at the end of the day(spend quality time with your spouse instd of home chores)I would rather pay for that over a course of a year(equal term in expenses) than say upgrade a car or do a home improvement project for example.I would'nt see it as a waste-It's a perk many would love.


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## marina628

I pay my housekeeper $20 per hour (on payroll with WSIB benefits) and she is here on average 10 hours a week ,she scrubs all the floors on her hands and knees ,,washes the windows and walls etc.With 5 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms and 4000 sq ft by time she gets the work done it is time to start again.We have our own business and Work from home and do much entertaining for our business at home so we can justify the expense.If I could find another one like her I would definitely hire her as my housekeeper is in such high demand she can't handle it at times. BTW Jungle I have a cottage that needs cleaning lol


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## marina628

How can you get your nails done then come home and clean? lol


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## Karen

I have my house thoroughly cleaned just once a month. I live alone and often the only rooms that are used during that month are the kitchen, family room, master bedroom and bathroom, so I do some general upkeep in between in those rooms, but nothing major. I know it doesn't make much sense for a single person to hire someone to clean my house, but I justify it by reminding myself that I spend very little money on myself - my health doesn't allow me to travel (although I'm certainly capable of doing housework), I hardly spend any money on clothes since I retired, and I don't have any expensive hobbies, so I can well afford to spend money knowing I'll never again have to do my least favourite job of vacuuming! I would never spend money on things like having my nails done, so it all boils down to priorities.

In my case the $20 per hour I pay stays in the family because when I asked my stay-at-home-mother daughter if she knew of anyone who would clean my house, she said, "What's wrong with me?" and she's been doing it ever since.


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## MoneyGal

Shellac nails. They're really expensive ($30 per manicure). (Ha - I am showing what I think is expensive here!) They're like car enamel though - a fast-drying, impervious manicure. My nails are really short - they don't get in the way of anything.


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## m3s

I pay about $10/hour for house cleaning and it does feel like big waste for something I could do myself if I didn't hate it so much, but compared to any other expenses it's still worth it. I just try not to mess the place up to save money and I can go about a month on my own with light cleaning. I get products for her that I can get for cheaper and do basic car maintenance in exchange so it's a win-win. Do you pay someone to change your oil, tires, top up fluids and other basic car $$$ maint?? That is a waste of both time and money imo (I can do these faster than you can pay someone to..) I almost wish we would go back to basic trading services like that... but there are many weird cultural wastes that has become the norm thanks to the convincing marketing.


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## MoneyGal

Ugh. NO. I do basic car maintenance myself and my husband just did a whack of non-basic car maintenance on our car as well.


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## Belguy

I HATE housework and so I do very little of it. I also am too cheap to pay to have it done. Hence, this place is a dump but, as they say, Martha Stewart doesn't live here. I did have the place looking fairly clean and tidy back around Christmas however. Sorry that you missed it!!

By the way, nobody ever spent time on their death bed wishing that they had done more housework!!

Just look at this place!! What a dump!!!


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## Just a Guy

What I don't understand is how my mother could raise three kids, work more than full time, and keep the house clean...especially with three kids.

There was something different about that generation I think...


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## MoneyGal

Two kids, we both work full-time. My husband does all the vacuuming, though; and he certainly "does more" housework than a previous generation of husbands would have. He just told me that he considers vacuuming a basic maintenance activity that lets him inspect the house in general (looking for loose nails, wobbly floorboards, etc.). 

I will say that my viewpoint on housecleaning changed when I had kids. When we were a couple with no kids, I wasn't anywhere near as interested in doing housework. Still didn't pay for it; I was just much more indifferent to the overall state of the house.


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## donald

One thing i have noticed(and maybe it's been like this for a longtime) because there is so many residential home cleaning co's and its generally a immigrant based operation(with low overhead)it's actually helped drag down the prices(imo it's not that expensive)The trend in home cleaning or maid services are pretty high in middle class(whatever middle class is lol)20 yrs ago one would never hire out those chores unless they were wealthy.(3k for a full year of cleaning is actually not that bad,if it actually is that amt or $20 hr rate...is laundry in that also?some companies will do that also)I have a friend that has a cleaning co and he won't touch private homeowner only commercial clients and cleaning for home builders before they turn it over(he said it's very cut throat from a business side)Guess the same things could be said for lawncare and snow removal services.


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## Four Pillars

Belguy said:


> I HATE housework and so I do very little of it. I also am too cheap to pay to have it done. Hence, this place is a dump but, as they say, Martha Stewart doesn't live here. I did have the place looking fairly clean and tidy back around Christmas however. Sorry that you missed it!!
> 
> By the way, nobody ever spent time *on their death bed* wishing that they had done more housework!!
> 
> Just look at this place!! What a dump!!!


Or hiding under their death bed...

Seriously - very funny post Belguy.


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## Four Pillars

MG, you and others have raised a ton of interesting points in this thread.



MoneyGal said:


> I just value insourcing as much as I can.


I think this quote pretty much answers the question. If you are big on "insourcing" then cleaning is one of those things that you can easily do yourself and save a significant amount of money. There's no question that doing your own cleaning is the right choice for you.

Personally, I don't like cleaning and have no problem outsourcing some of this work. I can't and don't "justify" it, it's just a choice that I've made.

I don't think you can say that having a cleaner means spending $3k per year. Some people hire someone very infrequently and other have various levels of cleaning. In our case, we have a guy who charges $20/hour. Usually around 5 hours every two weeks. But he is often away or not available - I suspect our annual cleaning cost is more like $1800 per year.

At this point in time, I don't care a fig what our cleaning bill is - however in September, both the kids will be in school full time, so I need to talk to the wife about either cutting down on things like cleaning services (ie she will do it) or she can get a job. Any advice on that front???


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## leoc2

donald said:


> One thing i have noticed .... Guess the same things could be said for lawncare and snow removal services.


I have a neighbour who has the time to cut his own grass but would rather pay a gym membership and walk on a treadmill rather than walk behind a lawnmower. Gee go figure :dejection:


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## brad

My sister and I got the clean genes in my family; my two brothers did not. They pay for housecleaning because if they didn't they'd be living in pigstys. My oldest brother lived in his apartment for 15 years and never once cleaned it...I visited him a few times and couldn't bring myself to use the shower because it was literally black with grime. He now lives in my stepmother's house (she died in January) and as a condition of giving him the place my other siblings and I required him to hire a house-cleaning service.

Even I have a pretty high tolerance for filth; I clean my office only once a month and get around to cleaning the inside of my car once about twice a year. But my girlfriend and I clean the house every week; she takes care of most of it because I do all the cooking, food shopping, and meal planning.


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## brad

leoc2 said:


> I have a neighbour who has the time to cut his own grass but would rather pay a gym membership and walk on a treadmill rather than walk behind a lawnmower. Gee go figure :dejection:


Outsourcing yardwork is a parallel issue to housecleaning, but in this particular case it's worth noting that you only have to mow your lawn about six months out of the year and even then it's about once a week. With a gym membership you can work out every day, 12 months a year. No contest.

That said, I've never understood the need to pay for a gym membership unless you're a swimmer or you use equipment you can't buy for the home. Some people need to work out in an environment with other people around, or they need a structured environment with a personal trainer, which I can understand. But I find it a lot easier to stay with an exercise program if everything I need is right here at home. No excuses: if it's 40 below zero or a blizzard outside, you can still work out because your gear is in the basement. I deliberately chose a daily exercise regime that I can perform at home (rowing on a rowing machine); when the weather's okay I have a bike circuit that I ride instead. I have free weights and exercise bands that I use for strength training. I would never pay for a gym membership; my rowing machine cost me about $800 in 2002 and my touring bike cost about $1,300. Both have performed flawlessly ever since I bought them despite heavy use (more than 6 million meters on my rower so far, and lots of long tours on the bike in addition to daily rides in summer); I would have spent a lot more in gym fees over the past 10 years than $2,100.


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## 44545

We live in a sub-900 square foot apartment so writing a cheque to a cleaner would probably take more time than just firing up the Kirby ourselves. 

Plus, clutter bothers us so we clean as we go - fold the blanket, put books away etc. It never gets to a point where a cleaner would have anything to do.


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## MoneyGal

brad said:


> That said, I've never understood the need to pay for a gym membership unless you're a swimmer or you use equipment you can't buy for the home.


Olympic weighlifting; I don't have the space for a full platform, squat rack, etc. Plus the actual weights are hella expensive. And it actually wouldn't be safe for me to work out alone, come to think of it.


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## brad

MoneyGal said:


> Olympic weighlifting; I don't have the space for a full platform, squat rack, etc. Plus the actual weights are hella expensive. And it actually wouldn't be safe for me to work out alone, come to think of it.


Exactly, but it was your choice to pursue Olympic weightlifting, so you're willing to pay the price. I think you could extend the same reasoning to people who choose to outsource and pay for work that you choose to do yourself (housecleaning, car maintenance, etc.). It boils down to choices and priorities. Do we need to justify them?


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## the-royal-mail

I understand the desire to hire someone to do this. Often times I am bushed by the time I get home from work and the vaccuuming and bathroom cleaning doesn't happen as often as it should. The impending arrival of guests can usually rectify that problem but otherwise yes, this is something I've thought about.

For me, $300/month is a lot. That's a good share of my annual TFSA contribution. So for that reason I'm out.


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## CanadianCapitalist

Four Pillars said:


> I don't think you can say that having a cleaner means spending $3k per year. Some people hire someone very infrequently and other have various levels of cleaning. In our case, we have a guy who charges $20/hour. Usually around 5 hours every two weeks. But he is often away or not available - I suspect our annual cleaning cost is more like $1800 per year.


Same here. Our cleaner comes in every other week and charges about $40 for 2.5 hours of work. So it's $80 per month about $1,000 per year. Sure, we could do it ourselves but it's simply a choice we've made.


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## MoneyGal

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "justify." I was only thinking of myself -- in the sense that I could not justify the expense *for myself* and I assumed that other people go through the same thought process and make a decision that the tradeoff is worth it. 

Don't get me wrong - I understand the impetus to outsource this task. I just can't, *personally,* stomach the cost. I don't assume that anyone here is paying $3000/year but I know that many of my peers and acquaintances are (because they tell me, "I spend x per year / x per month on housecleaning"). 

There's probably nothing more to say about this - people go through a decision-making process and decide the tradeoff is worth it. Perhaps all this thread does is highlight for me how cheap I really am - except that other people (like my mom) think some of my spending is "high" because I get my nails done all the time. 

I didn't and don't intend this to be some kind of moral debate. I don't think doing your own housework makes anyone a morally superior person. I was just curious about the thought processes of people who are (a) committed to frugality (that's why I posted in this subforum) and (b) thoughtful about spending.


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## brad

I do think it's useful to evaluate as an opportunity cost, as TRM did above: e.g., "if I pay to have my house cleaned I might not be able to fully contribute to my TFSA or meet some other financial goal." I tend to do this kind of evaluation with any large expense, whether it's a lump sum or a monthly payment that adds up to a significant amount over time. For me the question always boils down to, "is there something better I could do with that money?" It doesn't necessarily mean investing it or saving it; it could mean spending it on something that brings me even greater personal happiness or other non-monetary benefits.


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## Guigz

It is definitely and absolutely not frugal to pay for housecleaning. Housecleaning requires no specialized skills or tools and minimal investments in equipment (i.e., a vacuum, a rag, vinegar and baking soda). Anybody can do it.

That being said, I do understand that some people feel that it is worthwhile (timewise) to pay for housecleaning but I really woudn't say this is frugal.

I also don't really buy into the "Doing this cost X$/hour and I make X+Y$/hour therefore I should outsource" argument. Can you work *extra* hours to pay for the cleaning? If not, you are on a fixed budget and the argument falls apart when you extend it to other things (i.e., you will run out of money before you run out of things to outsource). Therefore, you are delaying your financial goals by choosing to pay for cleaning.


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## brad

Guigz said:


> I also don't really buy into the "Doing this cost X$/hour and I make X+Y$/hour therefore I should outsource" argument.


I've never bought that argument either. But I do think it's worth standing back and looking at it this way:

"I've spent $52,000 over the past 25 years having my house cleaned."

"I've spent 2,600 hours over the past 25 years cleaning my house."

One of these might make you cringe, depending on whether you place a higher value on your dollars or your time. For some people, spending that much time on something as inconsequential as cleaning your house represents a huge opportunity cost: you could have done much more enjoyable or productive things with those 2,600 hours. For other people, spending that much money on having their house cleaned represents a huge opportunity cost.

Of course, your house is going to have to be cleaned no matter what (unless you're like my brother, who simply doesn't bother). So it's kind of like looking back over your life at how much you spent on food, cooking at home vs. eating out, etc.


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## Guigz

We are our own jailors.:biggrin:

If you see cleaning as a major chore, of course you will feel that your time is "wasted".

What I do instead, is find ways to make this time more enjoyable! Blast some music, dress up to the occasion and get that mopping action going! 

Same with cooking at home. If you find ways to make cooking interesting for you, you will never feel like it is a chore and you won't miss out on eating outside of the home.


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## piano mom

I make cleaning the house a family affair - family who cleans together stays together? I find it a very good opportunity to teach my children to be responsible for the mess they cause. And yes, we often have the music on as well. After that, we often reward ourselves with a movie or eat out.


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## Four Pillars

Guigz said:


> dress up to the occasion


Do you put on a French maid's outfit?


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## humble_pie

pas marrant


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## kcowan

Our housekeeper also does ironing, a task that DW hates. Our place is 3300 sq.ft. and we are neat but dusting is definitely not on our list. On occasion, when our housekeeper is ill, I will vacuum, and DW will iron.

But like belguy says: on our deathbed, we will not wish we had done our own housework to leave a bigger estate. However he needs to dust under his bed quite often!


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## mart

Happy wife happy life.

My wife has back problems and can't really clean the house without worsening her injury. As for me, I do other house chores and am not a big fan of cleaning. With two kids, hours are limited and instead of scrubbing the house on week-ends, she comes in every 2 weeks with her friend and within 2 hours the house is clean ($80 total). 

Sure I could put that money aside for retirement but I don't see myself penny pinching everything, I'd go crazy and not enjoy life. There's no point in being rich at 65 if you haven't done anything through life and end up dying at 67. Balance is key, just like a portfolio. Earn some, save some and spend some.


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## humble_pie

when my friend nadia was a busy medical student, she somehow never got around to cleaning up her 5-year-old's room.

a few years passed & a bunch of us went over to do the job. The floor was invisible under layers of toys & clothes but sometime around 11 am we began to catch glimpses of it.

passe-moi l'aspirateur, i said to nadia. She looked concerned. What, you're asking for a double scotch already, she said.


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## Guigz

humble_pie said:


> when my friend nadia was a busy medical student, she somehow never got around to cleaning up her 5-year-old's room.
> 
> a few years passed & a bunch of us went over to do the job. The floor was invisible under layers of toys & clothes but sometime around 11 am we began to catch glimpses of it.
> 
> passe-moi l'aspirateur, i said to nadia. She looked concerned. What, you're asking for a double scotch already, she said.


Maybe she was distracted by the maid's outfit?each:


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## Four Pillars

humble_pie said:


> pas marrant


Is it funny now?


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## marina628

mike that was just nasty LOL


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## humble_pie

now why would you be showing such an embarassing pic of yourself to total strangers


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## Plugging Along

piano mom said:


> I make cleaning the house a family affair - family who cleans together stays together? I find it a very good opportunity to teach my children to be responsible for the mess they cause. And yes, we often have the music on as well. After that, we often reward ourselves with a movie or eat out.


Honestly, this is why we initially went and found a cleaning lady. Both my spouse and I HATE all aspects of cleaning, we were both travelling for work (Him 90%, me about 50%) of the time, we would only see each other at the most every other weekend, after both of us had worked at least 60 hours, and would fight. For us, cleaning together would have meant the end of our relationship.


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## Plugging Along

Honestly, for me, I have no problem hiring someone for cleaning. I have done so as soon as I was able to afford it. I remember despising cleaning as a kid, and my very frugal mom would say 'What are you going to do? Pay someone to do it? Do you know how much money that you would need to make?' I still remember thinking, 'Hey, if I find away to make enough money, then I can pay people to do things that I don't like'. That's one of the choices I have made before. We used to pay about $200 a month for cleaning (every other week), and it was well worth it. We now have a nanny who does our cleaning, but I will still have a cleaner when my kids are older.

My reasoning is that my free time to do things with my kids and family is worth alot more to me than the cost for cleaning. My spouse and I made the choice to work full time outside of the home, and build a business which takes us away from the kids enough as it is. We both hate cleaning, we both make good incomes, we are less efficient at it than a professional (it would seriously take us twice the time as we are so bad at cleaning), we argue when we do clean, so for us, it's a no brainer.

We do outsource alot of our smaller tasks though mainly due to time. In both of our cases, since we also consult, time we spend on cleaning or any other task we don't want to do, can really be used to either spend with the kids, or to make more money. If I pay someone $20/hour to do something, I will make that amount in many multiples.


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## Young&Ambitious

Once I get to that point when I am too busy and financially secure, I will outsource cleaning for sure! 

Being highly Type A it bugs me when the place is disorganized or dirty. Just yesterday the boyfriend asked me put together a cleaning list so he knows what he can do when he wants to help out. That was likely a mistake on his part :chuncky:

Another point to this cleaning discussion, all the numbers mentioned have been BEFORE tax. So really this cost is adding up quite a bit more!


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## Square Root

Each person will allocate their spending the way that maximizes their utility. We have four houses and if we cleaned them ourselves either we wouldn't have time for anything else or they would be very dirty. I estimate we spend $5-7k per year on this. Under 1% of total spend. if you can squeeze it in financially it does free up time. Frugal? Who cares.


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## Belguy

I have decided that I should perhaps hire some outfit to clean this place up a bit but I am looking for a topless maid service and can't find one in the local directories but will keep looking.

http://www.alittlebitdirty.com/


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## donaldmc

Yeah, i think the same way too, it's quite expensive. But for those who have more money, well i think it's not a problem to them.


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## donald

Ya i agree i think so to donaldmc.thanks for the great info.This site is so goooood.


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## financialnoob

Belguy said:


> I have decided that I should perhaps hire some outfit to clean this place up a bit but I am looking for a topless maid service and can't find one in the local directories but will keep looking.
> 
> http://www.alittlebitdirty.com/


At those rates, you might want to consider hiring a prostitute. Not only will you get a mediocre cleaning of your home, but a much happier ending :encouragement:


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## kcowan

As a word of caution to anyone considering maid service: avoid Molly Maid. We used them for several weeks while we recruited our current maid. It was a disaster.


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## RedRose

This has been Fun to read this thread. Lots of variance in opinions and values, $$$s and standard of living.

I have done both. When I had the cleaner he kept me on the straight and narrow.
Without the cleaner I have to motivate myself to keep on top of things. Self-Disciplined.
I try to look at it as an extension of my work-out exercise routine, sometimes that works for me.
Weight lifting is dragging the vacuum around, stretching dusting etc...

One way is less on the pocket book...but could be mentally less satifying with the finished product.
Paying someone to do this keeps you on a routine and a happy ending with a clean house once a week or month.
One less worry on the agenda so to speak.
I am still doing my own cleaning but wish I could justify paying a cleaner.

*Good topic MG.:encouragement:
*Here is a little quote for you regarding those nails, “ Lessons in womanhood—You are only helpless while your nail polish is wet. Even then, you could pull a trigger if you had too.”:biggrin:


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## Toronto.gal

humble_pie said:


> now why would you be showing such an embarassing pic of yourself to total strangers


Je suis d'accord, pourquoi indeed! Tu est vraiment amusant! :biggrin:

I clean our place simply because no person does it better & I rather avoid aggravation. I do however, get help for spring-like cleaning times that would involve windows, etc. 

As little as 15 to 30 minutes of daily cleaning can go a long way, especially if 2 or more people in the home are doing same; 2 people x 30 minutes x 5 days {so weekends off} = 5 hours weekly cleaning. Truth of the matter is that we will procrastinate and/or never find time for things we don't like doing & vice-versa. A lot of people never seem to have problems finding time [as in hours upon hours] for mind-numbing tv programs; facebook, forums, etc., so of course, there is little time for much else.

When it comes to spending, there are plenty of other ways that people spend a lot more for a lot less in return, such as lattes [too many calories]; manicures [your nails can break the same day]; monthly waxing sessions [eyebrows, etc.] and the list goes on and on. Personally, I like to spend on books [one can never learn enough & I prefer the paper version]; gifts [giving feels great]; clothes [quality lasts years] and fun/educational vacations [priceless]!

*FP:* if your wife is not working outside the house, I don't see why she could not do the housework herself [even with 2 kids at home], unless of course she had physical problems/the house was huge/you make $$$$.


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## Toronto.gal

Square Root said:


> We have four houses and if we cleaned them ourselves either we wouldn't have time for anything else...


But you would only need to clean all, if you lived in all 4 simultaneously. 

I'm not sure if you're the one making $400K in dividends, if so, who cares indeed!


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## MoneyGal

You can (try to) pry my latte from my well-manicured hands. (Actually I prefer Americanos / espressos...)


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## Toronto.gal

LOL MG.

Btw, I also have well-manicured nails [can't stand uncared for and/or fake nails, and that goes for toenails as well], but I'm capable of doing them myself. I like professional facials though!


----------



## Four Pillars

Toronto.gal said:


> *FP:* if your wife is not working outside the house, I don't see why she could not do the housework herself [even with 2 kids at home], unless of course she had physical problems/the house was huge/you make $$$$.


Would you mind giving her a call?


----------



## Toronto.gal

Just buy her a copy of:


----------



## HaroldCrump

Toronto.gal said:


> Just buy her a copy of:


I think it is high time for some disclosure now : what is your commission % from the publishers of the Dummies series?
:tongue:


----------



## Toronto.gal

No disclosure, LOL. 

My mother always taught me to learn things 1,2,3 and not 3,2,1, so that means that when you're a novice [at whatever], you need to start with the basics! 

I have a friend [don't I sound like Marina now, lol], who is totally clueless about cleaning and not only did I give her a cleaning lesson when she moved to her condo., but I also gave her the dummies book for X-mas, seriously! Didn't I say that I like to buy books and give gifts? I really do!

When I told her she needed to clean/dust the walls too, she said she never ever thought that the walls needed cleaning....sigh.


----------



## MoneyGal

She just likes calling us all dummies. 

While we're in full disclosure mode: I am, at this very moment, paying someone to come to my house and hang a light for me. (It's going to be complicated and annoying to do, I'm having houseguests next week, and I haven't gotten to this.) 

I sense a CMF chore exchange in the GTA. Except FP is the one who needs all the work done - call his wife, knock down his shed...:chuncky:


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## HaroldCrump

MoneyGal said:


> I sense a CMF chore exchange in the GTA. Except FP is the one who needs all the work done - call his wife, knock down his shed...


If he looks anything like that picture, I'm not exchanging anything with him.
I'm out.


----------



## Four Pillars

HaroldCrump said:


> If he looks anything like that picture, I'm not exchanging anything with him.
> I'm out.


I've lost a lot of weight since then.


----------



## Toronto.gal

MoneyGal said:


> She just likes calling us all dummies.


Then I must be one too because I read them, that's why I recommend them! :encouragement:

If someone wants to learn something well, one needs to start with the basics. I believe that one of the reasons many students have problems with certain subjects, is because in said cases, they have not mastered something at the basic level. For example, I'm terrible with directions, and I'm convinced that there is a valid reason for it; something I did not learn right in school!


----------



## humble_pie

_(monsieur pilier de colonne arrive chez lui très tôt la veille de la fête des mères. Il surprend sa femme en déshabille.)_

- regarde cocotte je t'apporte un beau cadeau pour la fête demain.

.









- ah ouaaai ?

- oui une belle copie du *Green Cleaning pour Dummies*.

- merci coco, je le livrai à la femme du ménage. _(madame pilier de colonne continue tranquillement à se manicure les ongles.)_






- mais non, on commence des économies tout de suite, le lendemain je vais mettre la femme du ménage à la porte.

- mince ! t'as pas des intentions de m'aider faire le ménage, coco ? c'est pas bon que je travaille les samedis pendant que tu dors devant la télé.








. . . . .​


----------



## Argonaut

I just moved out of a place at the end of April. Was worried about cleaning it and didn't have the time. Great news, I just had it taken off of my damage deposit and the landlord can worry about it. Only $150 for a full clean plus carpets. My time and energy and personal enjoyment is worth well over $150. What a sigh of relief.


----------



## humble_pie

_(madame pilier de colonne finit ses ongles avec une couche parfaite de vernis rouge)_

- si ma chère je vais t'aider malgré le fait que schuui crevé les samedis. Tu sais comme la rédaction au sujet du finance, c'est un gros fardeau tout le longue de la semaine. Tu sais comment les samedis schuui vraiement pas capable de bouger.











- sois gentil encore une fois, mon choux, si nous faisions le ménage ensemble les samedis, je porterais une très jolie lingerie toute la journée.









- eee.

- eee ?

- si, on ne prononce pas le ache, donc c'est une hee de quelque sorte.


----------



## financialnoob

My French is pretty terrible so I didn't understand any of that, but I do like where this thread is heading...

FP: Before your talk with your wife, I'd recommend a full suit of armor, available from Amazon. Sure, $3,000 is expensive, but think of it as really cheap life insurance for an extremely high-risk individual. :cower:

And in the interest of full disclosure, note the link contains no referral information or anything of the sorts.

I wouldn't frame the conversation around her having to contribute by cleaning more or getting a job. I'd suggest that you talk to her about the overall picture, where you are at, what the kids going back to school is going to do to impact that, and how we need to cut some corners. Let her make suggestions first and see how she's responding. You can then ask her how she feels about possibly going back to work even part-time.

Just buy the suit of armor first.


----------



## Four Pillars

financialnoob said:


> Just buy the suit of armor first.


Suit has been ordered.

FN - you seem pretty good at this stuff. Any chance I could interest you to do the talk for me in exchange for some butter chicken and unlimited Kingfishers?


----------



## MoneyGal

If unlimited Kingfishers are on the table (heh) I'm in as well!


----------



## kcowan

Sounds like the beginning of the CMF metro barter exchange! I'll do Windows if someone will do my windows...

(Warning: 24 full length window and door panels!)


----------



## Plugging Along

Four Pillars said:


> Suit has been ordered.
> 
> ?


Wouldn't it be more frugal and safer to just pay the cleaning person. I would think that you have to take off the suit sometime, and if people can stay angry for a long time, especially if they are constantly having to be reminded by the cleaning


----------



## Toronto.gal

financialnoob said:


> My French is pretty terrible so I didn't understand any of that


Pas de problème, nous avons google translator for that! :chuncky:


----------



## Toronto.gal

Argonaut said:


> 1. Only $150 for a full clean plus carpets...
> 2. What a sigh of relief.


1. Hmm, that amount would have bought you 18 AR shares that could have been worth $$$$ in 2032. 
2. LOL, what a burden to clean after yourself, eh? :biggrin:


----------



## brad

Toronto.gal said:


> Pas de problème, nous avons google translator for that! :chuncky:


I'm not sure Google translator would be much help with "schuui crevé."  It means "je suis crevé," as in I'm exhausted. So, "yes, dear I'll help you despite the fact that I'm totally wiped out on Saturdays." And "mon choux" is most definitely not "my cabbage," in case Google returns something like that!


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## HaroldCrump

^ Yep, it creates _the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak_ type situations.

Those that don't recall that joke, Google : _Russian translation the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak_
It dates back to the early days of online translators like Altavista


----------



## Toronto.gal

brad said:


> And "mon choux" is most definitely not "my cabbage," in case Google returns something like that!


Lol, I checked & yes, that is exactly what GT returns [it means my dear FN]. 

No, it won't give you 100% accurary naturally, but good enough for getting the gist of it.

I personally find GT very helpful with various languages, but then again, I have the advantage of not being unilingual.

*Harold:* not familiar with early online translators, but I can well imagine the results! :distress:


----------



## HaroldCrump

Toronto.gal said:


> *Harold:* not familiar with early online translators, but I can well imagine the results!


When the phrase _the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak_ was translated to Russian, it's literal English equivalent turned out to be : _The vodka is great, but the meat is rotten_.
More or less.


----------



## brad

Toronto.gal, If you ever get a chance, watch "Lost in Translation" dubbed in French. The translators somehow managed to make all the mistranslation and pronunciation gags from Japanese to English work in Japanese to French -- my hat is off to them for what must have been an extremely challenging task.

Some of my friends who are professional translators use Google Translate or similar software on their computers to do a first rough cut, and then they go through and fix all the mistakes and misinterpreting of idiomatic expressions, etc. 

When I was a journalist sometimes I'd see my articles translated into different languages by other publications; my favourite was an article where I mentioned the Union of Concerned Scientists, which got translated into Hungarian and then back into English again as "The Worrying Scientists' Society."


----------



## Toronto.gal

Will do Brad, thanks.

Lol at the 'vodka' and 'worrying' examples. :biggrin:

Anyone did any cleaning today?


----------



## MoneyGal

My night to take the kids to swim class and go grocery shopping; husband fixed a chair and fixed some electrical thing while I was out. Does any of that count? And husband is JUST NOW saying to the kids, "let's not create a mess [as kid one is putting some papers down in front of him], let's _reduce_ the mess."


----------



## brad

And I did something this week that I've put off for the last 30 years: I ordered a dishwasher. We had one when I was a kid, but I've never used one since I left home at 18, and I'm 53 now. It's being delivered on Friday. Dishwashers are actually much more frugal than washing by hand (there are lots of studies to back up that conclusion; they use much less water and power) so I don't know why I put it off so long. The only drag is that we've been using the dishwasher-space in our kitchen for our recycling box, which will now have to go in the basement, so chucking reyclables into the bin will be more of a chore.


----------



## Sherlock

That's interesting, I just signed a lease on a new condo and it has a dishwasher, never had one before, parents don't have one either, no idea how they work. I'll find out soon enough...

Aren't you guys worried that letting some stranger into your house to clean it might steal something, especially if they clean while you're not at home?


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## financialnoob

FP: That's a real tempting offer. It might end up costing you more than the suit of armor, especially if MG gets involved :very_drunk:

Thanks for the assist there Toronto.gal. Though "my cabbage" would be great too. I would love to see the look on some French girl's face if I called her that...

*Google Translates "my cabbage"*


----------



## Spidey

We had housecleaning for a short while when my wife and I were both working and our kids were young. However, I found that what makes a house look messy is the clutter - the actual cleaning part is not all that difficult. We found it was just as stressful straightening up the day before so the cleaner could do her job as doing it ourselves.


----------



## MoneyGal

Serious post again for a minute: I understand that EVERYONE on this board may well be able to "afford" housecleaning, defined as either (1) paying someone less than you can earn in the equivalent amount of time, or (2) paying some small fraction of your monthly income to have this handled. And some people may choose to outsource what they perceive as unpleasant or menial tasks even if this isn't "frugal" or affordable or whatever. 

But two comments: first, leaving aside the people on this particular board and thinking about "society in general," isn't this an example of lifestyle inflation that many people should be avoiding, not increasing? (Or am I going to sound like one of those latte factor people that I dislike?) If outsourcing cleaning becomes "the norm" - and I think it is already there - isn't this one of the things that we as a society should be cautious about adopting wholesale, because *as a society* we are overspending our income? 

(Also: side note: it seems to me that many people also outsource a ton of their food preparation, either by eating out a lot and/or buying a lot of premade food. Is this a concern for anyone? Is this "better" or "worse" or "the same as" outsourcing housecleaning?) 

And secondly: would people here agree that people in general should manage their own finances and do their own tax returns? If yes, why would we agree that managing your own finances/doing your own tax is more important than cleaning your own house? Or maybe these two things are not correlated at all. But they do seem very related, to me anyways, as part of "household economics." I am caring for my house and my household by doing my own taxes and investing, and cleaning and caring for my physical house. Is that just me, or are those things connected for anyone else?

(Another side note: from the many comments in this thread it seems pretty clear that housecleaning is considered "women's work" here. But is managing the household finances women's work? not women's work? How did those two spheres get disconnected?)


----------



## Four Pillars

MoneyGal said:


> (Another side note: from the many comments in this thread it seems pretty clear that housecleaning is considered "women's work" here.


I didn't see that in the thread at all.


----------



## HaroldCrump

Yeah, MG, haven't you been looking at the pictures posted so graciously by Four Pillars.
What makes you think it is woman's work?


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## MoneyGal

"Many husbands are going to be slapped with a cleaning bill"
"I don't understand how my mother could raise three kids, work full time and do all the housecleaning"
"Our housekeeper irons, a task my wife hates"
"Happy wife happy life"

Plus every housekeeper hired is referred to as "she." The tasks are implied (in the quotes above) to be "women's tasks" (husbands are going to be billed for them, how did mom do it, housecleaner does tasks that would otherwise be wife's, hire a housekeeper to keep your wife happy/reduce her burden). My nose is not out of joint, I just noticed this.


----------



## Four Pillars

MoneyGal said:


> "Many husbands are going to be slapped with a cleaning bill"
> "I don't understand how my mother could raise three kids, work full time and do all the housecleaning"
> "Our housekeeper irons, a task my wife hates"
> "Happy wife happy life"
> 
> Plus every housekeeper hired is referred to as "she." The tasks are implied (in the quotes above) to be "women's tasks" (husbands are going to be billed for them, how did mom do it, housecleaner does tasks that would otherwise be wife's, hire a housekeeper to keep your wife happy/reduce her burden). My nose is not out of joint, I just noticed this.


Fair enough.

For the record - my opinion about my situation is that the stay-at-home spouse (note the neutrality) should do the cleaning unless they can justify hiring a cleaning person - ie they are running a business, doing work/organizing the house etc.

Also - our house cleaner is a man.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist

Four Pillars said:


> Also - our house cleaner is a man.


House cleaning is 50-50 in our household. But my spouse once refused to hire a guy to clean the house, so there maybe something to MG's thesis that housecleaning is viewed as "women's work" even by many women themselves.


----------



## brad

On the first point in MoneyGal's post, I'm not sure it's a lifestyle inflation issue for everyone; I don't think most people hit a certain level of income and say "hey, I can afford to hire a housekeeper now." I think it's heavily dependent on how much they dislike or have no time for housekeeping. 

Same with finances and taxes. I manage my own finances but I would not for a moment consider doing my own taxes anymore, because my situation is too complicated (I have to file in both the US and Canada). And I don't have time to learn all the tax rules; to me this is a perfect task to delegate to a professional.

I personally wouldn't delegate housecleaning to a professional because it doesn't require skills and knowledge that my partner and I don't already have, and because we don't hate housecleaning enough to pay someone else to do it. But that's our personal choice.

I do think there's a danger of what one might call "normative creep" -- there's a social expectation that at some point in your life you settle down, buy a house, have some kids, get a car, etc. and if "having a housekeeper" creeps into that set of expectations then people might do it simply because it's the socially expected thing to do, not because they have thought it through and made a conscious decision.


----------



## MoneyGal

brad said:


> I do think there's a danger of what one might call "normative creep" -- there's a social expectation that at some point in your life you settle down, buy a house, have some kids, get a car, etc. and if "having a housekeeper" creeps into that set of expectations then people might do it simply because it's the socially expected thing to do, not because they have thought it through and made a conscious decision.


That's what I mean. My US clients would express horror that I was travelling around their cities by public transit. "Please," they'd say to me - "promise me you won't do that again." Except there was no REASON for not using public transit, except it "isn't done."


----------



## Toronto.gal

*"society in general," isn't this an example of lifestyle inflation that many people should be avoiding, not increasing?"* - yes, but in short and IMHO, 'society in general' has gotten very lazy and dependent not only on technology, but on many other things, and I don't just mean 'lazy' in the literal sense! As well, I find that people don't necessarily look [or even know] ways to do things more efficiently [not at home and not at work], and so they simply waste a lot of time & naturally, productivity [at home and at work] is not adequate & hours of quality time goes down the drain, when they could be cleaning/cooking healthy meals/reading/doing some other fun activity with family, etc. 

*"If outsourcing cleaning becomes "the norm"* - this has been the cultural norm in many other parts of the world, like in South America for example, just about every middle class home has live-in help and obviously one of the reasons is because labour is cheaper; we may very well be headed for that culture here too.

*"we are overspending our income?"* - no doubt! It's the culture of not only overspending, but instant gratification! I agree with a lot written in this article by an American sociology Professor & consumerism expert:

"The result is that millions of us have become participants in a national culture of upscale spending. I call it the new consumerism."

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/schor-overspent.html

*"outsource a ton of their food preparation"* - laziness once again! So people can't find time to cook as though there weren't many healthy meals that could be cooked in 30 minutes or less? But how many hours do people have, to: watch tv or be on the internet [and I'm not talking about being on the net for learning purposes or even for fun]? Why is obesity a problem in this part of the world? I love to go/eat out, but that's not what the issue is here.

*"would people here agree that people in general should manage their own finances and do their own tax returns?"* - yes, but admittedly, not everyone can do so.

*"managing your own finances/doing your own tax is more important than cleaning your own house?"* - IMO, those subjects are not correlated in the manner you're describing them; both need to be done at some point, but just about every adult can do the latter without any skill as Brad mentioned, however, the same can't be said for the former, especially in very complex ones. Of course there are many people that could, but choose not to out of mere unwillingness, though very willing to find just about any excuse/justification for their laziness. :biggrin:

edit: the link above might not work for some of you, so here is a review of the book in question: The Overspent American - Why We Want What We Don't Need. 
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/08/03/review-the-overspent-american/


----------



## brad

But when we're talking about paying for housekeeping, are the negative impacts that serious or is it just something that grates at us, like walking into a room and seeing a painting askew on the wall?

Yes, people are spending money they don't need to spend. But they're giving that money to people who need it. They're helping to create and sustain jobs, even. If we grow into a society that hires housekeepers, will that place an undue burden on society because we won't have saved enough for retirement? Or would we not save enough for retirement anyway -- if we didn't hire a housekeeper, would we sock that money away in our RRSPs instead?

I don't have the answers, but it's worth asking the questions.


----------



## kcowan

brad said:


> I do think there's a danger of what one might call "normative creep" -- there's a social expectation that at some point in your life you settle down, buy a house, have some kids, get a car, etc. and if "having a housekeeper" creeps into that set of expectations then people might do it simply because it's the socially expected thing to do, not because they have thought it through and made a conscious decision.


The creep has already happened. Now kids want their own car/house etc. right away. For my parents, a car was a luxury.

I remember renting a room in Ottawa with a small fridge and a 2-burner stovetop. I had graduated but was working at NRC for the summer. Ate a lot of stuff out of cans. Now a microwave would be essential. Our 3rd house had a dishwasher but it was our 4th house that had AC.

So yes lifestyle creep has become the norm. Used to be that you did not go to University if you could not afford it. No student loans.

BTW we interview houskeepers more carefuly than new employees and only accept them through referrals. We never clean up before they arrive. They are truly treated as a part of our family. And we do not look down on people that do their own chores. It is always a lifestyle choice.

We currently have 2 residences with 900 to 1000 sq.ft. for each of us. That is another lifestyle choice and helps justify the housekeepers. (Our parents family home had 200 sq.ft for each of us. How is that for creep?)


----------



## Toronto.gal

brad said:


> a painting askew on the wall?


Off-topic, or maybe not as it deals with $$$: would like to hear opinions from art-connoisseurs here, of what you thought about the $USD119.9 million 'The Scream' sold for yesterday.

http://news.yahoo.com/scream-fetches-record-119-9m-nyc-auction-000711889.html


----------



## kcowan

Toronto.gal said:


> Off-topic, or maybe not as it deals with $$$: would like to hear opinions from art-connoisseurs here, of what you thought about the $USD119.9 million 'The Scream' sold for yesterday.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/scream-fetches-record-119-9m-nyc-auction-000711889.html


It is relevant to the notion that value in the wallets of the buyer! I appreciate fine art but I am not a collector.

OTOH it might be an asset class that is safe. I was surprised to see vintage cars get hit so badly by the recession.


----------



## Square Root

i am not sure if "lifestyle creep" properly portrays the fact that over the last 60-70 years North American standards of living have greatly improved. Good thing. Who woudn't want a better life if it was affordable?


----------



## MoneyGal

Absolutely! But doesn't one's POV change if you are talking about yourself - and you've made it clear that regular housekeeping is eminently affordable for you, SR - versus talking about "Canadians at large"?


----------



## Toronto.gal

MoneyGal said:


> regular housekeeping is eminently affordable for you, SR - versus talking about "Canadians at large"?


It's affordable for you too!  But we're talking about others, not us this time!


----------



## MoneyGal

Well, I do remember my grandmother laughingly talking about how she had to wait 82 years to get a microwave. People tend to get the things that are generally available for their peers and economic class. I don't know anyone who hasn't (for example) graduated beyond a wringer-washer, although that's certainly what my mother grew up with. And Elizabeth Warren's The Two-Income Trap  deconstructs the argument that people are "spending more" on (for example) cars and home appliances than they were a generation ago. (Again, U.S. data, so some level of incompatibility with Canada, but still.)

But if housecleaning becomes "the norm," then people won't think about whether it is "affordable" or not. Aren't we seeing that with (for example) real estate in Canada's largest markets? People don't stop to calculate what they can actually afford and what is workable. Instead there is bickering about how the middle class is being hollowed out as a result of real wage stagnation. And I'd never argue against the economic data about wage stagnation, but at the same time: you know how much is coming into your bank account every month, it isn't a mystery. It seems to me that "people" in general need to scale back the lifestyle improvements and learn to live on a little less. Less prepared food, less purchased services for the home, smaller homes, lower-key lifestyles. But ... I'm not intending to stand on a soapbox and I can't proselytize to anyone but my own kids, ultimately.


----------



## HaroldCrump

MoneyGal said:


> Instead there is bickering about how the middle class is being hollowed out as a result of real wage stagnation. And I'd never argue against the economic data about wage stagnation, but at the same time: you know how much is coming into your bank account every month, it isn't a mystery.


I personally do not buy the wage stagnation logic specifically w.r.t. housing prices.
It is not the wages that are out of whack - it is the housing prices.
Any govt. mandated wage appreciation at this point, ceteris paribus, will cause even further massive inflation in housing prices.


----------



## Toronto.gal

MoneyGal said:


> It seems to me that "people" in general need to scale back the lifestyle improvements and learn to live on a little less. Less prepared food, less purchased services for the home, smaller homes, lower-key lifestyles.


I could not agree with you more MG, and it's not at all about not living/wanting a 'better life'; a richly one even if one could afford it, but some live an excessively & lackadaisical lifestyle, which is neither productive nor healthy.

By the way, no microwave in my place and not because we can't afford it, lol, I just like to cook.  Seriously, I have a different reason for not liking it.

*Brad:* you taught me something new as I could have sworn that a dishwasher used more energy, so thank you, I'll be washing less dishes by hand now & will have more free time! :encouragement:


----------



## brad

Toronto.gal said:


> *Brad:* you taught me something new as I could have sworn that a dishwasher used more energy, so thank you, I'll be washing less dishes by hand now & will have more free time! :encouragement:


Dishwashers are definitely more water- and energy-efficiency, but I'm curious about the payback period: at our low electricity rates and the fact that we don't pay for water, I have a feeling it's going to take 15 years for this dishwasher I just bought to pay for itself out of the savings. And by then I'll have to buy a new one. ;-)


----------



## Spudd

As it's one of the most famous paintings in the world, I think $119M is surprisingly low. I'm surprised it was up for sale and is not owned by a museum.

On the "lifestyle creep" topic I have to say I agree. When I was growing up most families I knew had one car that was shared by all. Now most have two or more. I think people are buying houses younger, and the houses are fancier, too. And the number of designer labels you see walking down the street is crazy these days. People riding the bus wearing Dolce & Gabbana shoes.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Spudd said:


> As it's one of the most famous paintings in the world, I think $119M is surprisingly low.


Really? How much would you have guessed?!

There are other equally famous/recognizable paintings that have sold for less.

Previous auction record was $106.5 million, so in a way, it is not surprising as these record-setting figures keep increasing like never before! Next one will likely be $20 million more than the $119.922,500.


----------



## Spudd

I don't know, I honestly have no concept of art prices. I feel like I'm splurging when I spend $300 on a piece of art, LOL. It just seemed like not THAT much money. Heh.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Spudd said:


> I honestly have no concept of art prices.


LOL, in that case, how did you deduce that *$119.922,500* was a 'surprisingly low' amount??? :rolleyes2: :biggrin:

What I found surprising is that the bidding started at $40 million.


----------



## Young&Ambitious

Haha I like it... $40mil Art...is it "frugality" or "investing"


----------



## kcowan

Toronto.gal said:


> By the way, no microwave in my place and not because we can't afford it, lol, I just like to cook.  Seriously, I have a different reason for not liking it.


In the financial makeover shows, they have a complete kitchen with fancy stove and microwave and convection oven and dishwasher but they always eat out or bring fast food home. I guess the microwave gets used for the leftovers. They have central AC and internet and cable etc...not to mention mobile phone bills. TVs in every room. This is the lifestyle creep along with personal use cars for everyone.

And it is all financed by debt. Unheard of amounts of debt. Debt used to be a dirty word or a necessary evil (but still evil). It is small wonder that the Canadian Banks are making out like bandits...


----------



## CanadianCapitalist

Art is something that people enjoy, the investment is secondary to its purpose. All this talk of $40 million reminds me of Steve Wynn's elbow to a Picasso:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/10/23/061023ta_talk_paumgarten


----------



## Square Root

Well, I guess we could debate what things people value the most and where we should spend our money, and whether our lives improve with more wealth or not. These are such personal choices. It seems evident to me that more people have cleaning people now than they did a generation ago. I think it is because we have a higher standard of living and are more willing to hire personal services. This is also probably a function of more second wage earners in more families. Anyway, we recently hired cleaners here in Arizona. Wow! amazing what they do for a very reasonable amount. Didn't ask to see their green cards.


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## donald

I think cleaning services are being used because of inflation(and the way i see it,it's the spill over effect)20-25 yrs ago a household could "run" on one income and you would maintain a "middle class lifestyle"(along with home cooking meals ect ect and in most cases the male was the breadwinner(made sense post 1985-that's another thread thou)Because it takes 2 incomes now to "keep up" IF U WANT THE FINER THINGS"Its squeezed everybody's time(a large % of people are emotionally tired by modern life and they just don't want or can't deal with the extra layers of more on there plate imo)couple that with the fact that cleaning co's are francised(it's competitive)the services are quite cheap.Imo this is what happens when both partners work(man and women both share the same roles now in society)That is my take.(and i don't think too many women feel like being "super moms anymore"ie-career,home maker,parenting ect ect.)


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## Berubeland

In another lifetime I worked in construction all day, then came home and was supposed to "be a good little wife" and clean and cook and do the laundry. Ironically my ex and I rode in the same truck to work and back. 

Then I watched my mom work and do all the cleaning and cooking. My dad's work was seasonal so most winters my mom would come home from work and pick up his discarded newspapers. Every weekend was a stressful effort to get us kids to clean the house. Awful really. Plus my mom was a teacher and worked a lot less hours than I do. I don't get weekends off. 

I have two specific problems with cleaning. 

1- I am really crappy at it. I have seen people who are good housecleaners in some miraculous way they create order around them almost effortlessly

2 - I already work 80 hours a week. If I gave up sleep I could easily do some housework I like sleep more than a clean house.

At any given time I have work to do that will pay me more than cleaning the house. Having said that I don't hire out. My better half does most of the cleaning. He isn't very good at it either. I deal. Fundamentally I don't care. 

What I do care about is the fact that every night for the last three weeks I've been working so late I don't make it home before my son goes to bed. That sucks. If I thought for a second that hiring a housekeeper would change that I would do it. 

It's weird, women are messed up. In the 50's the cultural expectation was that women got married and had kids and took care of the house. Then we took on jobs but never quit the first job of being "Molly Maid" If someone comes to my house and says it's messy, they'll be looking at me and not my husband. My own parents do this. It's crazy. 

I have no answers for this.


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## kcowan

Rachelle
Have you considered giving up some business to enable you to get home to your son?

The business will still be there after your son has left home!


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## Plugging Along

Berubeland said:


> In another lifetime I worked in construction all day, then came home and was supposed to "be a good little wife" and clean and cook and do the laundry. Ironically my ex and I rode in the same truck to work and back.
> 
> Then I watched my mom work and do all the cleaning and cooking. My dad's work was seasonal so most winters my mom would come home from work and pick up his discarded newspapers. Every weekend was a stressful effort to get us kids to clean the house. Awful really. Plus my mom was a teacher and worked a lot less hours than I do. I don't get weekends off.
> 
> I have two specific problems with cleaning.
> 
> 1- I am really crappy at it. I have seen people who are good housecleaners in some miraculous way they create order around them almost effortlessly
> 
> 2 - I already work 80 hours a week. If I gave up sleep I could easily do some housework I like sleep more than a clean house.
> 
> At any given time I have work to do that will pay me more than cleaning the house. Having said that I don't hire out. My better half does most of the cleaning. He isn't very good at it either. I deal. Fundamentally I don't care.
> 
> What I do care about is the fact that every night for the last three weeks I've been working so late I don't make it home before my son goes to bed. That sucks. If I thought for a second that hiring a housekeeper would change that I would do it.
> 
> It's weird, women are messed up. In the 50's the cultural expectation was that women got married and had kids and took care of the house. Then we took on jobs but never quit the first job of being "Molly Maid" If someone comes to my house and says it's messy, they'll be looking at me and not my husband. My own parents do this. It's crazy.
> 
> I have no answers for this.


This almost my situation exactly! I am lousy at cleaning, so is my spouse. The difference is my spouse will not clean and he is the one that wants a cleaner house. Since I work just as much if not more than him, and have little free time. Another reason we had a house cleaner and then went with a nanny instead of childcare, is to keep the peace in the home. Housecleaning for me is something that will ALWAYS take the lowest priority in my life, now even more so. Unfortunately, I was even featured in our local paper years ago as one of the women who did not keep a clean house and even then choose to outsource. I was referred to the report by one of friends who knows that when I have guest over they are to visit me, rather than to judge my house. I btw am a fabolous host in a messy house.


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## Plugging Along

To MG point to it becoming the norm, I don't necessarily see that as a problem. The roles of women have shifted in relationships, and at home and work, and there's good and bad things about that. In my personal opinion, more good that women are treated more as equals, and have less limitations, which is another thread. There are a lot of things, not just housekeeping that can be put in the category of 'norms', people who are looking at outsourcing such as cleaning, gardening, lawn mowing, snow shovelling, personal assistants, manicures, pedicures, two vehicles (or more), really anything that is not a neccessity and adds to the conviences of life can become the norm. The issues is not what is becoming the norm in what people are thinking its okay to spend on, but rather the fact that it is becoming a norm that it's okay to pay for it using debt.

I think the norm around debt is really the problem, and people don't necessary weight their options because they think debt is okay. I think its a problem that people do not necessarily look at the total impacts of their decisions. It's the person that doesn't have a handle on their spending is the problem, not what is considered the norm.


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## MoneyGal

Good distinction...I picked housecleaning because (as I've said now many times) I personally can't justify it, AND I can't see how the people I know who have regular housekeeping can. 

However: if you can't afford to do the regular stuff of life (NOTE I am not talking about whether you like housecleaning, or are good at it, or "whose job it is" and whether you have to be a "a superwoman" to have both full-time employment and maintain your house!), probably you need to change your life. If you are too exhausted from your work to maintain your house, AND you don't make enough money from your employment to save for retirement, retire your house debt, have an emergency fund etc. AND pay for housecleaning, you probably need to change something, maybe even something major. 

If you make enough money to pay for housecleaning AND meet other financial goals, who cares? In some ways I dislike that I picked housecleaning as my example, although it is the one thing I do personally wonder about. Just like I spend probably $20 a week on coffees out of the office. I love coffee. I buy fancy coffees (not at Starbucks, though!) all the time. Is this affordable for me? Heck yes. So is the "latte factor" a concern for me? Heck no. 

Anyways. Now I'm just rambling. I do think this discussion is interesting. My husband is cleaning the house as I type.


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## Berubeland

I have turned down 3 new buildings in December and hired someone to help me (it's not working out at all) 

This latest crisis comes from a transition between building superintendents. The guy leaving was doing nothing...not even answering the phone to people trying to pay the rent (We have interac) Our Interac went from 30K to 13K which I collected. I was on site trying to make sure we hit our target of $75K in collections. (I failed by 4K but it could have been sooo much worse.) 

So anytime I have an extra stress on my time I have to do extra work, I do not have anyone to delegate to. In business I am always learning to grow myself, I have to develop competency in hiring the right people. It's not easy...


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## Plugging Along

MoneyGal said:


> However: if you can't afford to do the regular stuff of life (NOTE I am not talking about whether you like housecleaning, or are good at it, or "whose job it is" and whether you have to be a "a superwoman" to have both full-time employment and maintain your house!), probably you need to change your life. If you are too exhausted from your work to maintain your house, AND you don't make enough money from your employment to save for retirement, retire your house debt, have an emergency fund etc. AND pay for housecleaning, you probably need to change something, maybe even something major.
> 
> If you make enough money to pay for housecleaning AND meet other financial goals, who cares? In some ways I dislike that I picked housecleaning as my example, although it is the one thing I do personally wonder about. Just like I spend probably $20 a week on coffees out of the office. I love coffee. I buy fancy coffees (not at Starbucks, though!) all the time. Is this affordable for me? Heck yes. So is the "latte factor" a concern for me? Heck no.


I think the problem is that the norm of what is affordable has become distorted. I was brought up that if you couldn't pay for it outright, you couldn't afford it, with the exception of University, and MAYBE a house. Heck, my family was horrified that I had to get a mortage and wouldn't have it paid off within 3 or 5 years. Interest unless you could write off was a four letter word. 

When I see all these people around me that all drive nice cars, huge houses, etc, my spouse and I actually got caught in the the Jones'. We were thinking that we were doing really poorly because we didn't have all of these things and how do people afford all of these things. Then we realized that they have a different definition of affordability. 

Now, I think the norm of the definition of affordable has drastically changed. No longer is it if you have the money, but rather can you make the payment. I am absolutely baffled when I see people buying lattes, designer shoes, manicures, spas, etc, when I KNOW they are in debt. The justifications I have heard when I have questioned spending (only on my closets friends who talk to me about it), are just as baffling. 
- Since they paid for the item out of cash or their bank card, they can afford it, even though they have credit card debt. 
- It's on sale, so the more they spend the more they save 
- I can afford it, I still have a few thousand left on my LOC
- It's only $5 or $10 or whatever the amount
- Every else is doing it and we make more than so and so, therefore we should be able to spend

The list goes on and on. It's just become normal to go into debt, not save, not worry about retirement, etc. I think people are getting worse and worse with money.


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## brad

Plugging Along said:


> It's just become normal to go into debt, not save, not worry about retirement, etc. I think people are getting worse and worse with money.


People tend to take their behavioural cues by watching others around them. One of the many reasons that obesity has become epidemic, for example, is that the more obese people you see around you or in your family, the more you eat: a Harvard study that followed 12,000 people over 32 years found that obesity is "contagious." Studies performed at Columbia University found that 75% of students left alone in a room that started filling with smoke immediately left the room and sought help, whereas when three students were in the room only 38% of the groups of three reported the smoke. Each person's inaction signaled to the others that there wasn't an emergency.

The same thing is going on with debt and spending. As more and more people live beyond their means, spending freely despite debt, it sends a signal to others that this is normal behaviour and many of the people around them start doing the same thing. Eventually the numbers reach a critical mass and the behaviour becomes widespread in the population.

I don't think education is the answer. If we want to change this, somehow financial responsibility has to go viral: a critical mass of people have to start behaving responsibly so others start viewing it as the new normal and conform their behaviour accordingly.


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## orange

This is an interesting discussion. I've always said if I won the lottery, the first thing I would do would be hire someone to cook and clean for me! Forget a fancy house or car...I want staff. It is kind of a joke, but also kind of true. In most of the world, as soon as you have some extra money, you don't buy more stuff, you hire people to do things for you. You may have a dirt floor in your house, but gosh darnit you will have someone to sweep that dirt floor for you! Why? Because they point of money is to make your life easier and more enjoyable...not to accumulate more material possessions. People only work enough to meet their needs, then spend the rest of their time enjoying the company of family and friends. Sounds like a good life. Except, in North America, the opposite is true. People will make their lives miserable, working crazy hours, to make more money...just so they can spend it on stuff for the sake of saying they have a lot of stuff.

I don't pay for house cleaning...yet! But I will. We decided on it a while ago, but just haven't gotten around to finding anyone yet. I have a job that is draining and often overwhelming - physically, mentally and emotionally, so I truly subscribe to the idea that money is for making your life easier and more enjoyable...and I don't spend money on things (excluding necessities, like my hydro bill!) unless they either make my life easier or more enjoyable. I would love to have fancy nails, but paying for a manicure isn't going to make my life more enjoyable, so to me it is a waste of money. I used to cut my own hair because nobody could cut curly hair nicely, so why pay for someone $50 to do a crappy job? But now I will spend $200 every 6 months to get my hair straightened...why? because it makes my life SO MUCH EASIER! I hate cooking, so eating out makes my life easier and more enjoyable. I will pay someone to clean my house because I hate doing it and I like having a clean house...it will make my life easier and more enjoyable. It means when I come home I can go do my gardening rather than scrub the stove.


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## gimme_divies

I find it interesting that there is so much worry about people spending and spending and incurring debt to purchase more and more, and to pay for that extra car, and that house cleaner, and the spa treatments, etc, etc... Brad mentions that financial responsibility has to go viral. While this is completely logical and would be best for individuals, the fact is we live in a CONSUMER society that depends on frivolous spending and waste in order for our economy to run. Do you not find it absolutely ridiculous that we just went through a "financial crisis" and "recession", yet you go to the malls and there are massive hordes of mindless consumers blowing every last penny. Recession? what recession?!? It's completely ridiculous that "economic growth" stalled all the while people are spending like crazy, building up DEBT hand over fist. Where is the logic? It's because we are all a bunch of brainwashed consumers that are under massive attacks from advertisers and market researchers/manipulators that infiltrate our minds with custom advertising to make you believe you NEED this new greatest thing. Newsflash - my iPhone 3G is good for the garbage.

Perhaps we should stop blaming "the stupid" masses for their reckless spending and wonder why it is that this spending is exactly what is needed for our "economy" (look up the definition of the word economy) to run at the proper growth rate. If everyone lived within their means, the economy would grind to a halt and the financial system would collapse.

100 years ago people were not savage consumers and how we got here was very carefully orchestrated by corporate America. This is very well explained in a BBC documentary called "The Century of the Self". I recommend everyone check it out on YouTube.

I personally am so damn sick of advertising - it drives me mad. It is disturbing to see my 20-month old son turn around and become mesmerized when an Apple or Chevy commercial comes on. And then we wonder why people grow up wanting all this stuff.

As for the original topic - I think paying for housecleaning is probably the single best expense I have. It directly gives me more time to spend with my wife and son, makes my house cleaner with less germs to make us sick, and it also provides employment to a hard-working young woman for a fair wage. There are many luxiries I will give up before I stop paying for house cleaning services.

Sorry for the rant.


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## Sampson

gimme_divies said:


> It is disturbing to see my 20-month old son turn around and become mesmerized when an Apple or Chevy commercial comes on. And then we wonder why people grow up wanting all this stuff.


This is true. My wife had to point out that my 16 month old son and I were both staring blankly at the commercial for the New iPad. creepy, but undoubtedly powerful.


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## crazed

This is something I've put a lot of thought into lately, I don't currently have a house keeper but I've been considering it. It's a bit frustrating when I'm trying to cut out monthly expenses and here I want to add another, but in the end it makes sense for me.

I'm a computer programmer and on top of my 40h a week I can come home and put in another 20-30 depending on how ambitious I feel. There is no shortage of work for me and it seems silly to spend an hour cleaning when I could pay someone else to do it for me at a fraction of what I'd make if I worked that hour.

I dont mind doing some of the cleaning, scrubbing the toilet and sinks doesn't bother me at all. Making the bed and picking up after myself are already things I do. But when it comes to scrubbing the floor my back will be in agony after 5 minutes and it can take a day or two to calm down -- it just isn't worth it for me to scrub the floor. Same goes for vacuuming, but I already solved that by buying a Roomba. 

I also found that when I was still living with my ex we used to fight over who's mess it was or who's turn it was to clean it. Far too many fights over somethign as silly as a pile of dishes or a dirty floor. I've already told the current girlfriend that when it comes time to move in together I'd be willing to get a maid so we can avoid such silly quarrels. However I worry that such a thing can also become an excuse to be lazy. But that's a whole other issue on it's own.


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## Sustainable PF

We recently brought on a house cleaner for 4 hrs every 2 weeks. Since the our son was born we were finding no time to clean properly. For $80 every 2 weeks, $40 a week, $6 a day to have the bathrooms and kitchen always clean greatly reduced the stress we were feeling about finding time to clean properly. Call it our Latte Factor. I brew my own coffee each day and pack a lunch to eat at work. No guilt whatsoever with having someone much more proficient that we are cleaning our home.

We still do day to day cleaning but the cleaning lady takes care of the deep cleaning - the time consuming cleaning, and we love it.


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## kcowan

When we retired, we considered letting the housekeeper go. Then we said, if we can afford it, let's keep her. She is like a family member. $100 every 2 weeks for 7 hours.


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## Echo

Is that the going rate for a house cleaner ($20 - $30 per hour)? Might be worthwhile for someone to come in every two weeks and do the vacuuming and bathrooms, maybe a bit of laundry.

Kids are messy.


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## Guigz

Is two weeks between a maid visit the normal recommended time?

I can't fathom how dirty our toilet would be after two weeks without a good scrubing. The hard wood floor would likely look like a carpet with our cats shedding all over the palce.

If we had maid service, we would likely want them to come each week.

I value my free time more than I value not doing the cleaning. Once I am retired, I will have all the time in the world to clean all I want.


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## marina628

To get a great one you should expect to pay about $20 per hour ,our housekeeper gets on her hands and knees and cleans the hardwood floors ,that is rare these days.


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## Sustainable PF

Echo said:


> Is that the going rate for a house cleaner ($20 - $30 per hour)? Might be worthwhile for someone to come in every two weeks and do the vacuuming and bathrooms, maybe a bit of laundry.
> 
> Kids are messy.


Yes, yes they are.

In 4 hours our housekeeper does a top to bottom on the kitchen and both bathrooms. She scrubs the floors in those room and the dining room (our little guy loves to drop food). She cleans smudges wherever she sees them and usually cleans the 2nd floor floors and does some dusting. Last week as asked her to clean the fridge as it hadn't been done in a few years. She cleaned the entire inside - quite a nice difference.

When it comes down to it we find it hard to find time to do these things on any sort of schedule. Cleaning is the first thing to drop off our to do list most of the time.

Like marina our cleaner does the hands and knees as well for cleaning floors.

We find every 2 weeks works quite well. The toilets aren't disgusting but that may change once our son is out of diapers!

On our main floor we run a roomba each night to handle the cat hair and general dirt. Works well and saves me 30 minutes a night sweeping.


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## davext

I would suggest just getting a housekeeper to help once a month, that reduces the cost by a lot.


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## rikk

Just a Guy said:


> What I don't understand is how my mother could raise three kids, work more than full time, and keep the house clean...especially with three kids.
> 
> There was something different about that generation I think...


Exactly, there was something different about that generation ... my wife and I clean the house, we take our time, no big deal ... a joke we use when we inadvertently ask the other to do something we could do ourselves ... what's the matter ... 2 broken arms, 2 broken legs? So you guys that’ll drive to a gym, jog for an hour, on some diet or other … and don't do housework … 2 broken arms? 2 broken legs? :rolleyes2:


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## Young&Ambitious

Well here's some incentive, housecleaning burns a ton of calories! Screw the gym and better yet, save money on foregoing the gym, get cleaning everyone!!

http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/exercise/tips/housework_workouts.htm


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## Ponderling

We actively aim to keep the house clutter free. It cleans up so much easier that way. 

The we host a dinner party for friends. That puts you in high gear to really clean your own house.

It also saves on dining out, and virtually guarantees a good night or conversation and catching up and a few more good nights when they reciprocate. 

No need for the hired in house cleaner, and reduced dining out bills to boot. 

My mother, now 80, and on her own in her house 150km away from us is no longer as mobile and agile as she once was. I do not think it wrong for her to hire on a house keeper, and she has.


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## sags

So...........it was over 20 years ago, the wife was out doing something and I was at home alone.

The doorbell rang and I answered...........looking at a sort of rumpled guy standing there........with a battered old car in the driveway and a couple of younger kids inside.

Yes, I said.................and he started explaining how he was selling the best vacuum cleaners in the world and could he just give me a demonstration.

Sure I said........come on in.

As he started his demonstration...........I was watching out the front window at his kids...........who I wasn't comfortable having out in the car in the driveway.

As he started vacuuming............I stopped him............saw the vacuum seemed to work pretty well..........and told him I will take one.

He was a little shocked...........but made out the bill..........and I gave him a cheque..........and a few minutes later he was gone.

I really didn't want the vacuum cleaner all that much.............but I felt really bad for the guy working hard while he had to drag his kids around with him in his battered up old car.

The vacuum cost 1200.................Twenty years ago.

My wife came home and freaked out on me. I told her it would be a good investment.

After 20 years the vacuum still works fabulously............but I don't want to press my luck asking if we should hire cleaners.

I am not sure she is over it yet.


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