# Killing the penny, here we go again...



## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

The Star reports the Senate Committee will once again recommend we get rid of the penny tomorrow.

I am not holding my breath but I really wish this would go through.

Who are the people who voice such objection to this?


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

I heard a long time ago that there are free coin exchange machines at some TD branches in Toronto. Unlike the ones you see at supermarket, they take your coins and exchange them for real cash without taking a 10% or 15% cut.

Has anyone tried this?


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## ramy98 (Sep 20, 2009)

I like pennies actually, I collect them especially pre 1997


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I vote for getting rid of it, and relegating it to the museums.
In fact, I vote for retiring the nickel, the dime and the quarters, too.
Will make life a lot simpler if we completely de-commisioned all cash and switch to purely plastic or online based payments.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes I think it is past time to get rid of the penny. I also support including taxes in the selling prices of goods. Then they can all be priced in multiples of 5 cents. 

But it makes sense to do the first and then let support grow for the second after merchants set prices such that added taxes results in a round up.


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## Sustainable PF (Nov 5, 2010)

I like the idea however it will simply result in a small rise in prices for everything. Retailers won't lower prices, they rarely do. I also think they dislike the idea due to marketing psychology where we as consumer have a mental block over an item list as $500.00 but for whatever reason can deal with / process the price $499.99.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Sustainable PF said:


> I like the idea however it will simply result in a small rise in prices for everything. Retailers won't lower prices, they rarely do.


Aha, but the provincial govt. will send us checks in the mail to "offset" the cost!
Wouldn't it be nice to receive another check of $0.66c. in the mail just before Christmas


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

Okay so the main argument I hear (never mind inflation - inflation impacts pennies for sure, but also nickels, dollars etc., equally) is that it costs 1.5 cents to make a 1 cent penny. 

But am I wrong in thinking that such a calculation is shortsighted because, we can use a penny more than once?

So copper has gone up in value? Fine, could we not use a different, less expensive metal(s).

Or we could just get rid of it.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

DavidJD said:


> Okay so the main argument I hear (never mind inflation - inflation impacts pennies for sure, but also nickels, dollars etc., equally) is that it costs 1.5 cents to make a 1 cent penny...


It is not the manufacturing costs, it is the cost of handling. Imagine how much time and money is spent every year counting and recounting pennes? Rolling them in paper and putting them in the inventory of every register at the beginning of every shift.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

I think other societies have gotten rid of the useless penny equivalent. With the costs involved? Time to get rid of it.

But much more importantly ... does it make my 1880 pennies go up in value? Hmmm, I may be able to go out for a Dairy Queen ice cream cone soon.


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

slacker said:


> I heard a long time ago that there are free coin exchange machines at some TD branches in Toronto. Unlike the ones you see at supermarket, they take your coins and exchange them for real cash without taking a 10% or 15% cut.
> 
> Has anyone tried this?


Yup, I went to the one in Stouffville, it was great. 

Here's my blurry phone picture of the results. This was two years of emptying my pockets every day.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Will make life a lot simpler if we completely de-commisioned all cash and switch to purely plastic or online based payments.


I completely disagree. We've already seen how greedy and ruthless the payment providers are. They constantly invent new fees and ways to empty our wallets. 

As for online payments, people complain about paypal fees constantly. No one wants to pay them.

I use cash as much as possible.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

kcowan said:


> It is not the manufacturing costs, it is the cost of handling. Imagine how much time and money is spent every year counting and recounting pennes? Rolling them in paper and putting them in the inventory of every register at the beginning of every shift.


Wah wah.

If it is that onerous drop them into a machine and get them all sorted and counted you are doing it wrong. I used to scoop them out of the till hold them in my hand and say to myself, "that is about 100" and record the cash as $1. 5 seconds. pennies come in...pennies went out.

Not enough reason in my opinion.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I completely disagree. We've already seen how greedy and ruthless the payment providers are. They constantly invent new fees and ways to empty our wallets.
> 
> As for online payments, people complain about paypal fees constantly. No one wants to pay them.
> 
> I use cash as much as possible.


Umm...I was being sarcastic


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## lister (Apr 3, 2009)

plen said:


> Yup, I went to the one in Stouffville, it was great.


Do you have to be a TD customer?


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

lister said:


> Do you have to be a TD customer?


Nope, unless it's over $1000 I am pretty sure I read was the restriction. You also have to have photo id if you're not a customer.


More info here


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

DavidJD said:


> I used to scoop them out of the till hold them in my hand and say to myself, "that is about 100" and record the cash as $1. 5 seconds. pennies come in...pennies went out.


Er, sounds like a perfect reason to not have them if they are so meaningless to allow for eyeballing estimates.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

plen said:


> Nope, unless it's over $1000 I am pretty sure I read was the restriction. You also have to have *photo id *if you're not a customer.
> 
> 
> More info here


Photo ID? So that they don't accidently let the vending machine mafia launder their coins?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

DavidJD said:


> Wah wah.
> 
> If it is that onerous drop them into a machine and get them all sorted and counted you are doing it wrong. I used to scoop them out of the till hold them in my hand and say to myself, "that is about 100" and record the cash as $1. 5 seconds. pennies come in...pennies went out.
> 
> Not enough reason in my opinion.


Maybe you don't understand retail. That's OK most people don't. From your perspective it is cheap, but it costs every clerk in the land the cost of loading their starting inventory of cash and then reconciling it all at the end of their shift. The multiplier is huge! Even if they all take shortcuts like you and believe me, they don't!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

kc, I understand what you are saying but I think we'll have to disagree on this one. It is true that there are costs related to time and effort to count change and balance the tills every night. These are the costs of doing business that we all pay for in our product price.

I do not for a second think this in any way justifies eliminating currency choices for consumers. That plays right into the hands of the banks and paypal, who are waiting for the chance to stick it to us with more fees. The day that happens is when we'll all be in great trouble indeed.

P.S. But if you just want to eliminate the penny, I am fine with that. I'm just pre-emptively saying that this is no reason to eliminate cash. 

P.S.S. Sorry Harold I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic as that didn't sound like something you would suggest. Without any emoticons I had only your written words to respond to.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

slacker said:


> I heard a long time ago that there are free coin exchange machines at some TD branches in Toronto. Unlike the ones you see at supermarket, they take your coins and exchange them for real cash without taking a 10% or 15% cut.
> 
> Has anyone tried this?


Yes I have heard and seen this, there are machines at select TD locations and grocery stores. 

After doing a search on RFD, the machines at TD were found to have counted wrong, in favor of the machine. Some posters claiming an error around 10%. 

I just rolled them my self with my wife, using plain white paper and wrote the amounts on them. Bank took them no problems.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidJD said:


> Okay so the main argument I hear is that it costs 1.5 cents to make a 1 cent penny.


Yea it also costs more than $5 for these new fancy bills



the-royal-mail said:


> I completely disagree. We've already seen how greedy and ruthless the payment providers are. They constantly invent new fees and ways to empty our wallets.
> 
> As for online payments, people complain about paypal fees constantly. No one wants to pay them.
> 
> I use cash as much as possible.


I don't really see the point of PayPal when you can pay with a CC direct. Online vendors absorb the fee same as CC anyways. PayPal is good for peer-to-peer and worth the fee for the protection service it provides

If you only pay by cash, you are missing out on the CC rewards that are built into the price IMO.  When you buy in cash you pay the same as me and you are paying for the CC system anyways but you don't get the free extended warranty/protection. There is a cost/inconvenience for the merchant to accept cash, so you are paying them to manage it

I hate all change and can't wait until I can pay for everything with my phone like Japan.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

plen said:


> Yup, I went to the one in Stouffville, it was great.
> 
> Here's my blurry phone picture of the results. This was two years of emptying my pockets every day.


Yes !! Awesomeness !!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I don't really see the point of PayPal when you can pay with a CC direct.


The benefit is that your CC number is not in the possession of hundreds of retailers and online e-Commerce companies.
I like PayPal for that reason.
I purchase a lot of stuff online and hate that fact that so many large and small merchants have my CC number.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

When was the last time you were able to buy anything for a penny? I'm old enough to remember "penny candy" but even then you really needed a nickel to make the trip to the corner store worthwhile.

The CPI for 2009 was 719.5 compared to a base year of 1962=100. I don't have CPI figures going any further back, but I would guess that for a base year around 1940 the current CPI would be about 1000. So what you could buy for a penny in 1940 would cost a dime today. Probably double that if we go back to the late 19th century.

The penny is obsolete and should be retired. Many European countries did the same years ago. The alternative is to re-value the Canadian dollar so that one new loonie= 10 old loonies. But this is usually done only in countries suffering from hyperinflation.

PS. todays' paper says Australia & New Zealand have already done it, and New Zealand is currenty contemplating dropping the nickel.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Why stop at the penny? I haven't used a nickel or dime in months. I've been a net receiver of pennies, nickels, and dimes.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Every time I put 3 penny's in the can I say that's my interest on a dollar.

So are banks going to move my GIC to 5% the lowest currency available.


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

Oldroe said:


> Every time I put 3 penny's in the can I say that's my interest on a dollar.
> 
> So are banks going to move my GIC to 5% the lowest currency available.


Huh?

A lot of people seem very misinformed to just what the plan involves.

If you pay by cheque, debit, credit, wire transfer etc. the cents are precise.
If you pay by cash, here is the scenario
Bill comes to $19.42 and you pay with a $20 you get 60c back
Bill comes to $19.43 and you pay with a $20 you get 55c back

That's all there really is to it, things average out fine if you tend to pay by cash. In some cases you'll get more cents to put in your new "nickels" jar, and some times you get less.

It's not a big deal.

For those of you who think retailers are going to find a way to make sure everything comes to 3c or 4c so they keep pocketing those extra pennies, then I'm not sure I'll ever convince you.


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## Sustainable PF (Nov 5, 2010)

plen said:


> For those of you who think retailers are going to find a way to make sure everything comes to 3c or 4c so they keep pocketing those extra pennies, then I'm not sure I'll ever convince you.


They will make 1c or 5c. Over 95% of all consumer goods end with a .99 or .95. Save Walmart which is already playing with the human psyche with their oddball "cut" prices.

They won't round down - count on that. If you believe they will, "then I'm not sure I'll ever convince you."


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

Sustainable PF said:


> They will make 1c or 5c. Over 95% of all consumer goods end with a .99 or .95. Save Walmart which is already playing with the human psyche with their oddball "cut" prices.
> 
> They won't round down - count on that. If you believe they will, "then I'm not sure I'll ever convince you."


A 99c item in Ontario comes to $1.12 with tax.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

slacker said:


> Why stop at the penny? I haven't used a nickel or dime in months. I've been a net receiver of pennies, nickels, and dimes.


I have discovered that the way to avoid this effect is to USE the pennies, nickels and dimes you receive. When you are buying lunch and the price is $7.77 be ready with your change to give $10.02 for instance. You get rid of two pennies and gain a toonie and a quarter. Easy and handy for the car wash.

Otherwise you would still have those two original pennies, plus $2.23 in change consisting of a toonie, two dimes and three pennies.


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

Pennies are only copper coated nowadays. Pre '97 pennies have a copper content worth >$0.01.


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## ramy98 (Sep 20, 2009)

$1600 Gold by 2011 said:


> Pennies are only copper coated nowadays. Pre '97 pennies have a copper content worth >$0.01.


Cool way to invest in Copper Bullion.... The melt value is over .025 USD give or take depending on year some as high as .029XX USD for 1977s and prior I believe...


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

How naive to believe retailers will avg. up and down.

And yes over a year we all will get scr...........w for 4%.

Yes we will not be able to sue because each transaction will be to small.

And you are happy.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

Pennies: Since 2000 pennies have been 94% steel, 1.5% nickel, 4.5% copper plating. From 1997 until 2000, the coin was made of copper-plated zinc. Prior to 1997 the one-cent coin was 98% copper, 1.75% zinc and 0.25% other metals.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

On the point about investing in pre-1997 pennies, this reminds me of the silver hoard of the late 1960s when they changed from silver dimes, quarters etc to nickel ones. I am not fully aware of the process to melt pennies down, but it seems to me if it was as easy as just scooping up old pennies from change, everyone would have done it. People steal copper pipes and wire, hoarding pennies is way easier. I think there's a part to this melting down angle that people don't understand (me included). It can't be that easy.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Oldroe said:


> How naive to believe retailers will avg. up and down.
> 
> And yes over a year we all will get scr...........w for 4%.
> 
> ...


Something tells me you didn't do the math.

How many cash transactions do you have in a year? Assume 2 or 3 a day (this is far, far higher than my rate). Now, assume that the seller conspires to make the sale amount round up by the largest possible amount each time by having the amount end in 3 or 8, which will cost 2 cents per transaction, at most. So that's 700 - 1000 transactions at at most 2 cents each per year. That works out to $14 - $20 per year. If your cash spending is $20,000 (average of $20 per transaction), that works out to a whopping 0.1% transaction cost. And that is in the absolute worst case for a reasonable person. 

You could always game the system. Any time the amount would round up, pay by debit/credit. Any time it would round down, pay cash. I don't know why you would bother, though.

Your paranoid complaint is a big fat nothing-burger as Kevin would say.


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

I think his point is every time it even goes a tick over the 0 or 5 mark they will round up to 5 or the next 0.

For example on $19.41 you'd get 55c back from a $20

When you go and buy something at $3.95 with 13% tax, the calculation of the tax comes to $0.5135, they can't charge you 52c tax, they charge you 51c, why would this situation be any different?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Then the worst case is 4 cents per transaction, or 0.2% of cash spending.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Those 4 cents belong to me. I earned them, not the retailer. It's my money.

You just never miss a chance to stick it to the buyer do you? You still haven't put forward a plan to also pass on the cost of healthcare and public transit, since you seem so fond of passing on costs.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Is it just me, but I can't figure out why gas prices are $1.104 instead of just $1.10?
What happens if you buy exactly 1 litre?
How are you supposed to pay 4/10th of 1c.?
With the penny gone, are we going to see such meaningless pricing on all items?


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Is it just me, but I can't figure out why gas prices are $1.104 instead of just $1.10?
> What happens if you buy exactly 1 litre?
> How are you supposed to pay 4/10th of 1c.?
> With the penny gone, are we going to see such meaningless pricing on all items?


You don't pay 4/10th a cent, you pay $1.10
If you bought 2 litres you'd pay $2.21 because it comes to $2.208

That's sort of like asking why you don't pay $1.1187 on an item that is 99c + 13% HST...

This isn't very uncommon, especially in commercial. Many of the items are priced to even the 4th decimal.

Look at the prices of some penny stocks, in many cases they're traded at the 3rd decimal place. Those extra decimal places add up when you're talking about many units.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

See you got better with math! $20,000 you must be in high school.

Maybe 50k and yes I want that $50 to $75 in my pocket.


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

Well at least I'm now seeing who the vocal opposition is. 

Yup lets just keep having our country's economy losing money so we can ensure the retailers don't rip us off 1c-4c (despite our assurances and guidelines for symmetrical rounding) when I'm paying cash. 

Hey what does Australia, New Zealand, France and Sweden, to name a few, know. I bet their consumers are up in arms still.

Or maybe you folks all have holdings in zinc miners?


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## plen (Nov 18, 2010)

Oldroe said:


> See you got better with math! $20,000 you must be in high school.
> 
> Maybe 50k and yes I want that $50 to $75 in my pocket.


You hand over $50,000 in cash to retailers a year?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

In addition to the fractionally extra we will be paying to retailers, we will get paid less as well, if our paycheque normally ends with a fraction under 5c.
The more number of paycheques you have (weekly vs. monthly), the more money you lose.

Why, oh why, this injustice


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

A friend once told me "It takes pennies to make dollars"

Still holds true.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Oh dear, now what's going to happen to all those cliches, sayings, pearls of wisdom like:

_Save the pennies and the dollars will save themselves.
Penny wise, pound foolish.
It takes pennies to make dollars.
A penny for your thoughts
A penny saved is a penny earned
My 2 cents_

Sounds like we are losing the wisdom of generations.
I take back my original position on the matter.
Save the penny!!


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Oh dear, now what's going to happen to all those cliches, sayings, pearls of wisdom like:
> 
> _Save the pennies and the dollars will save themselves.
> Penny wise, pound foolish.
> ...


+1


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## K-133 (Apr 30, 2010)

> I have discovered that the way to avoid this effect is to USE the pennies, nickels and dimes you receive. When you are buying lunch and the price is $7.77 be ready with your change to give $10.02 for instance. You get rid of two pennies and gain a toonie and a quarter. Easy and handy for the car wash.


Why stop there. I pay for everything with pennies, nickels and dimes. When I borrow a 20 from a buddy, I role up some good change, and hand it back to him the next day.

I recently bought my house with rolls of pennies. The bank wasn't too happy, but its legal currency, right.

I've wondered though, the negative effects of pocket change on personal wealth. I rarely use my change, it grows in a big pot at home until a decade later, I finally get around to using it. By that time, its lost a good deal of its value.

Actually, I just read what Harold has to say. Save the penny!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Those 4 cents belong to me. I earned them, not the retailer. It's my money.
> 
> You just never miss a chance to stick it to the buyer do you? You still haven't put forward a plan to also pass on the cost of healthcare and public transit, since you seem so fond of passing on costs.


What about fractional pennies? Retailers are stealing them from you about half the time! 

Please don't put ridiculous words in my mouth. I does us both a disservice.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> In addition to the fractionally extra we will be paying to retailers, we will get paid less as well, if our paycheque normally ends with a fraction under 5c.
> The more number of paycheques you have (weekly vs. monthly), the more money you lose.
> 
> Why, oh why, this injustice


Nonsense. No one gets paid in cash anymore, and cheques can still be paid out to the penny.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

K-133 said:


> Why stop there. I pay for everything with pennies, nickels and dimes. When I borrow a 20 from a buddy, I role up some good change, and hand it back to him the next day.
> 
> I recently bought my house with rolls of pennies. The bank wasn't too happy, but its legal currency, right.
> 
> ...


The idea is that you would never have more than four pennies, ideally--so, no rolls. Unlike the people who hoard hundreds of dollars of change for no good reason.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

K-133 said:


> Why stop there. I pay for everything with pennies, nickels and dimes. When I borrow a 20 from a buddy, I role up some good change, and hand it back to him the next day.
> 
> I recently bought my house with rolls of pennies. The bank wasn't too happy, but its legal currency, right.
> 
> ...



http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/c-52/bo-ga:l_I//en#anchorbo-ga:l_I

Actually, anything more than 25 pennies in a transaction, additional pennies are no longer considered legal tender.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf -- you are taking this discussion way too seriously


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

This is no laughing matter. Pennies cost our economy a great deal in essentially wasteful activity making, dispensing, collecting, counting, rolling, etc. pennies. People throw them away!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I have not seen any evidence of this.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

> The Canadian penny costs at least $130 million annually to keep in circulation, estimates a financial institution (the Desjardins Group) that called for an end to the penny.[5]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)#Abolition


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Theirs nothing you can say to make me feel sorry for Gov. not 130m not nothing.

130m That's about what Mulroney and Chretien stole when in power.

And that other flunky Duncan HST is good for you and me and will save us money.

Give me my penny's and I will keep this economy moving forward .


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I just throw pennies away. Who cares?


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## jmalias (Aug 10, 2010)

*what we need is...*

Can someone start a facebook group 
Call it "Who cares about Penny"

Get everyone to send kids into the bank with those pennys.
Swamp the bank with unrolled pennys.

Problem solved for the govt, transered to the banks.


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

plen said:


> A 99c item in Ontario comes to $1.12 with tax.


Exactly. $1.01 is rounded to $1.14, not rounded up to $1.15. Things are already rounded to the penny. Registers would just have to be updated to round to the nearest nickel.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

jmalias said:


> Can someone start a facebook group
> Call it "Who cares about Penny"
> 
> Get everyone to send kids into the bank with those pennys.
> ...


How old are you?

First of all, the plural of penny is pennies.

Secondly, you cannot "swamp the bank" with unrolled coins of any type.


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## CrankIt (Dec 14, 2010)

Pennies are fun to unload on retailers (within reason). I see prices rising if this were to happen. Not good!


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

*sigh* why is it that the ignorant are always the loudest?

To those of you raging about losing money to retail stores, your argument is invalid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_rounding#Rounding_with_5c_intervals

Second: Study shows you'll actually gain about 1/40 of a cent per transaction:

http://www.wfu.edu/wfunews/2006/2006.07.18.w.html


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

I went to the TD on Royal York, took about 20 minutes to cash in about $1300 of change !! (and about 20 TTC tokens)


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