# khaddafi's gone



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

op-ed pieces & articles written by both the left & the right have appeared denouncing the extraordinary powers of washington, paris, london, berlin in getting unpleasant leaders assassinated. Even tiny ottawa is said to have aided the extermination of khaddafi.

my mind goes back to the curious case of dominique strauss-kahn in nyc last summer. From the get-go it looked like he was set up. But the question of who is still open. Who wanted him gone, who maybe wanted to see pro-washington christine lagarde in his place as head of the imf.

these shadowy, informal, ac hoc secret executioners in the western capitals, do they have gradations of removal-from-power ? are heads scheduled to roll in certain flambuoyant anti-western cases like khaddafi & bin laden, while mere shame sufficient to destroy a political career is considered to be sufficient for the likes of DSK ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

There are many people just as bad if not worse than khaddafi. Difference is, khaddafi messed with our oil supply. I've always said I'd like to see stats on how many heads of state are killed in "airplane accidents" This mere coincidence is staggering

If you can't kill them off "accidentally", then you antagonize them in the media.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

The one thing common among all these stories - Osama, Saddam, Gaddafi, etc. is that up until the moment they blew the top, they were the darlings of the Western, democratic world.
Their trusted allies, their bosom friends, and other sweet things.
Even going back to the days of Hitler and how he was considered an "ally", almost until the day before he marched into Poland.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> The one thing common among all these stories - Osama, Saddam, Gaddafi, etc. is that up until the moment they blew the top, they were the darlings of the Western, democratic world.
> Their trusted allies, their bosom friends, and other sweet things.
> *Even going back to the days of Hitler and how he was considered an "ally*", almost until the day before he marched into Poland.


Hitler was never considered an "ally" by France and Britain. They remembered
WWI too well. Hitler had a lot of sympatheziers in the US (Henry Ford for one, and even Joseph Kennedy (JFK's father) who was strongly against the
jewish establishment. Hitler did sign a non-agression pact with Stalin and
with the Japanese, and with Italy (el Duce), and this formed the
Axis tri-partite. 
When Hitler invaded Poland under pretenses of protecting Germans in Poland
Stalin just smiled and proceeded to let Hitler do his dirty deeds on the Jewish
population. However, when Hitler decided to invade Russia..the pact was
off and then Stalin decided to join forces with Churchill and Roosevelt on the side of the west to get basically free weapons and supplies at first,
since Stalin wasn't prepared to fight a war in late 1939-40.

Bin Laden was helped by the Americans during the Russian occupation of
Afghanstan in the early 80s. The Russians appeared to be winning that
one with helicopter gun ships and bombers on the Afghan people.
The US helped binLaden by given him the latest anti-aircraft shoulder mount
Stinger missle which knocked the heavy gunships out of the sky. The heavy
and expensive Russian losses, prompted Moscow to pull out.

Saddam was only a regional power. The US had an embargo on him after
Desert Storm. They had him under control and there was no need to
invade Iraq...that was a decision that "Dubye" made when they conjured
up all these WMDs that Saddam never had. This was US foreign policy
being exercised for their own self interests..control of the oil wells.

They could have knocked out Gaddaffi a long time ago..and almost did
a few years when they bombed his compound and killed some of his
relatives. Why they choose to let him continue for this long and finally this
year help out the rebels, is anybody's guess.

( Libya has only about 3% of the world's oil reserves, so it had to be some other reasons).


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

There are are no reliable sources online of how much oil Libya has and most of Libya oil fields are unknown and unexplored because khaddafi was reluctant to hand his national resources over to US corporations on a silver platter. Once the destruction is done, US corps will roll in to rake up the lucrative "reconstruction" contracts and once the oil starts flowing free they have their fingers into all aspects of its economy


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> Hitler was never considered an "ally" by France and Britain.


Perhaps not an ally but they certainly were cozy with him.
Neville Chamberlain and his appeasement policy.
The reason they got cozy with him was because they saw Nazism as a countervailing force against communism.



> Hitler had a lot of sympatheziers in the US (Henry Ford for one, and even Joseph Kennedy (JFK's father) who was strongly against the
> jewish establishment.


Not to mention all the hardware being supplied by GM and other American companies.
The contracts were brokered by Prescott Bush - great pappy of Dubya - during his days with the Union Bank.



> Saddam was only a regional power. The US had an embargo on him after Desert Storm.


Right, but the West (esp. UK) was cozy with him all through the 1970s and 1980s.
He was originally installed by the CIA and the MI6 as a puppet leader.
During the 1980s, he was used by the west as a countervailing power against the anti-west, Islamic regime in Iran.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Who's next, Bashar al-Assad?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Libya's oil is light, sweet crude, which is the only oil that some British refineries can handle. Libya's kind of oil is the "sweet spot" for oil companies. 

The low cost of pumping it out and refining it, while collecting world prices based on alberta tar sands and deep sea recovery costs, make it a very profitable commodity.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Alberta is land locked and destroying it or putting up pipelines is harder to get by the environmentalists and inhabitants. Libya is on the coast and it's not so hard to put up a pipeline in the dessert unless a dictator is in the way.

Don't get me wrong, gadhafi had to go. There are many people who should go, but not all of them are protecting precious resources that can be exploited for years, including all the spin-offs from getting free access to the local economy.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I guess I'm the only one that is enjoying watching the USA cream alot of the idiots of the world.

I'm sorry they didn't get Mubarak.

Guess it's just the Albertan in me.

fwiw Mackenzie King was a great pal of Hitler,something Canadians should be ashamed of.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> There are are no reliable sources online of how much oil Libya has and most of Libya oil fields are unknown and unexplored because khaddafi was reluctant to hand his national resources over to US corporations on a silver platter. Once the destruction is done, US corps will roll in to rake up the lucrative "reconstruction" contracts and once the oil starts flowing free they have their fingers into all aspects of its economy


Regardless of the politics behind supporting the "rebels" in deposing Gaddafi
( or Khaddafi?), he was a self appointed dictator that was running the country
the way most dictators do, selling the oil where he pleased and keeping all the oil profits to himself.

During the 1980s and 1990s, Gaddafi openly supported international terrorism, which led to a deterioration of Libya's foreign relations, culminating in the US bombing of Libya in 1986

Although he was friendly with the US State dept in earlier years, the Pan AM
bombing over Lockerbie Scotland, and other aircraft bombings investigated,
uncovered that at least ONE of the bombers was from Libya. 

As a matter of fact, one of the bombers that the US/British intelligence proved 
to be involved, was captured and imprisoned, then released from a Scottish
prison ( back to Libya) because of "ill health" before serving out his full lifetime sentence. 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3248785...m/t/thousands-welcome-lockerbie-bomber-libya/

I'm sure his release infuriated the US, and no doubt, a lot of influence took place behind the scenes over the last few years, (that we as the public are not privy to via press releases), to allow the US/Britain, (and Canada's CF18's under the UN mandate), to help out the rebels to finally depose of him.

Whether this was done strictly under the pretext to protect human rights there, (as part of the "Arab Spring" ....is subject to anybody's interpretation. 
My feeling is that... IF oil was not involved, the US/Britain would watch
from the sidelines and not get that involved militarily there. 

So, it may be another "oil control exercise" in a oil based world economy. 
Otherwise, why would they commit to that scale of military operation,
(cruise missiles, bombing runs, etc), unless there was something that
arose from all the para-military chaos there, from which US and Britain could eventually capitalize on, once the dictator was deposed, captured, or killed.


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## calrest (Apr 13, 2011)

What do you think about the future of Libya? Will be Lybia second Iraq and Afganistan? I think yes! Probably, all the North Africe is one big bomb with many problems.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Chinese business had the biggest presence in Libya, prior to the revolution.

I expect they will return shortly.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

calrest said:


> What do you think about the future of Libya? Will be Lybia second Iraq and Afganistan? I think yes! Probably, all the North Africe is one big bomb with many problems.


It's too soon to tell whether the "rebel alliance" will form a western style
democratic gov't , or it's another case of a future dictator surfacing to
take control of the country replacing an existing dictator.
Look at what's happening in Egypt and Yemen these days.

In the Arab League, where democratic style elections are more of an exception than the norm, anything can happen.

Who is to say that al-Queda may not be involved here? They are well established in Afghanistan and Iraq. Since the 2002 invasion of Afghanistan and later on Iraq, there really hasn't been too much progress towards a democratic style of government. So the cost to the US and other countries, in lives lost and military spending has been enormous for that oil...and defeating Saddam and (temporarily, the Taliban) ...the terrorist bombings and murders still continue to this day.

As soon as the US pulls their troops out of these countries, they will revert back
to their own style of dictatorship government.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Chinese business had the biggest presence in Libya, prior to the revolution.
> 
> I expect they will return shortly.


China is now on the world oil based economy as well, because of the HUGE manufacturing base and container ships needing oil to export their products
to the world. 
About the only thing that Libya has that is marketable to the world is oil,
whether it be 3% of the world's oil reserves... or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Libya

So, it really doesn't matter who's in control now with the nations that are hungry for oil..it will be "business as usual" with China..
and anyone else who is willing to pay for the oil.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

In Libya's case, NATO was between a rock and a hard place. The bombing campaign started only because Gaddafi threatened to exterminate the population of Benghazi. And when the bombing started there were worries that it was already too late. If NATO hadn't acted, we might well be wondering now why NATO didn't help.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

We were discussing the death penalty in another thread and I said that while I believed in it for rare cases, that I did not agree with retribution and what we saw yesterday was exactly that. 

Gaddafi deserved the death penalty, but what we saw yesterday was pure terror and lynch justice; barbaric to have seen the very people asking for democracy, behave like a bunch of hungry animals. I have little hope for a true Arab Spring in the near future.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> Gaddafi deserved the death penalty, but *what we saw yesterday was pure terror and lynch justice*; barbaric to have seen the very people asking for democracy, behave like a bunch of hungry animals. I have little hope for a true Arab Spring in the near future.


Well, that's the Arab way. Some CBC reporter showed videos of where Khaddafi's forces, captured rebel prisoners and tortured them beyond belief, in very horrible ways. The prisoners were kept in warehouses without proper facilities, and when the decision was made for Khaddafi's forces to pull out to avoid capture because of UN bombing and the approaching ragtag rebel forces, they simply lined them up and machine gunned them, then poured gasoline on the bodies to try to hide the evidence..kind of Nazi style.

So it's still an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth as far as their ideology
is concerned. We will never see western style governments in places where
suicide bombers prevail, women are completely oppressed and the men
are more concerned about political issues than setting up western style
production to sell to the world in hopes to better the lives of their people. 

Oil is a commodity that they can pump out of the ground as long as it
lasts with western technology, and it's easy to sell at world prices to a world
that is so dependent on oil for their economies. 

Saddam did it that way and bought lots of tanks and weapons from countries
that were willing to sell them to him in exchange for his oil, while he
brutalized most of his people, especially the Kurds and tribes in southern
Iraq that were not from his Sunni "caste".

"T.G"..is that "cute-si " you in your avatar?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gadhafi forces were mowing rebels down with tanks. If you think we would act any differently in their situation you're probably mistaken. History shows we can all be quite barbaric at times like that. The last thing anybody wanted was to put more troops on the ground. I'd much rather see people fight their own wars. You can't expect Libyan rebels to suddenly become a sophisticated democracy or something, and there are places far worse than Libya. Wait until a video of someone being hacked up by a machete makes the youtubes and then this will look quite civilized.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just heard Pres Obama announce that the US is pulling ALL troops out of Iraq
before Christmas. The situation there is still very unsettled since the invasion almost 10 years ago. More than likely with dictator-regional power( Saddam) gone, there could be a power struggle in the next few months/years with Iran trying to "unify" the Iraqi Islamic republic. 

Back in 1980-88,, there was a war between the two countries that ended up with over half a million killed on both sides and no real results from it with a UN
brokered peace treaty that both sides accepted due to heavy losses. 
Saddam erected the famous "Fountain of Blood" to commemorate
that nasty war, where he actually used chemical warfare on Iran.

With the US out of Iraq, it's anybody's guess on any future stability in that
region of the middle east.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> 1. So it's still an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth as far as their ideology is concerned.
> 
> 2. the Kurds and tribes in southern Iraq that were not from his Sunni "caste".
> 
> 3. is that "cute-si " you in your avatar?


1. Barbaric, no other way to describe it & I have witnessed this not only on TV.

2. Reminds me of what is happening in Turkey; close to 30 Turkish soldiers killed by the PKK this week alone. A bit off topic, but as it is still the ME region, I would like to know your opinion about Erdogan? Are you familiar with their 'zero problems foreign policy'? You have to read this: 

http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?load=detay&newsId=257118&link=257118

And the latest is that Turkey does not believe in Iran's involvement in the Saudi plot. 

3. LOL, no; next time.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> 2. Reminds me of what is happening in Turkey; close to 30 Turkish soldiers killed by the PKK this week alone. A bit off topic, but as it is still the ME region, I would like to know your opinion about Erdogan? Are you familiar with their 'zero problems foreign policy'?


My only connection with Turkey was when I was sent over to Istanbul in
1986 as a systems troubleshooter/course instructor for Nortel telephone
systems equipment. It certainly opened my eyes with the living conditions
and pollution that country is faced with. 10+ million in Istanbul alone...
and the smog is choking!

As far as their foreign policies, Turkey has been basically a "fence sitter" on
their foreign policies in the last 25 years, IMO. They are a member of NATO,
and are still looking for admittance to the EU, so they tend to side with
the West, for issues when there is something in there for them,
and with the Arab League on other issues where there is something for them as well, at the same time, being careful not to get dragged into regional conflicts.
Border skirmishes are infrequent with them, but that's the way it's been for quite a
while, I believe. 

Here is a link to... perhaps a better "inside view" on their "zero problems" foreign policy.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/20/turkeys_zero_problems_foreign_policy


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. Barbaric, no other way to describe it & I have witnessed this not only on TV.


We had a clean slate to build a new society in N America. Did you witness how we wiped out the natives and enslaved the blacks and eventually let women vote too? I don't look down on other cultures that have been around far longer than ours, and cannot simply adopt our way of life in a day. We've all had to fight "barbarically" at some point for freedom. I'd much rather see people fight for their own freedom, then do it for them like Afghanistan where they not only don't help but impede progress with misinformation and poor translations etc

I don't believe in shoving democracy or lawyers/judges or ripping off their head scarfs to claim people worthy and sophisticated of our society. There is no reason to believe democracy is the only way to operate. How would you like to be put on trial in your own land for laws that never existed in your life, or for mob mentality etc? It's just impossible and it takes a lot more time to adjust. You have to respect that. Witnessing barbarism for a few days is one thing, try immersing yourself in such a culture for months or years at a time

Turkey is interesting as a kind of middle ground. There's a Turkish Muslim in US listed as a the current "top public intellectual" you might want to read about to get another side of the story. I don't necessarily agree with their way of life, but I respect it and I agree with him that our society has some serious over-reactive developments (suing for everything imaginable spending a fortune in courts, women divorcing everyone taking all their money sleeping around at young age and just general hatred for men, bubble wrapped kids who grow up to be serious pansies who couldn't defend themselves from a butterfly in a crisis) Of course these are minor but it looks ridiculous as well from the eyes of another culture

Most Americans tend to hold ourselves on a pedestal and look down on every other society. Thing is, we are not perfect and we can't expect everyone to be like us. In fact most cultures despise Americans for this yet they still perceive Canadians as tolerant people (though I'm realizing we're very close compared to Europeans and just as ignorant of other cultures) I work with Turks everyday and though they are the red headed step childs of NATO, I can respect they are different and I look forward to living there for awhile.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> We had a clean slate to build a new society in N America. Did you witness how we wiped out the natives and enslaved the blacks and eventually let women vote too? We've all had to fight "barbarically" at some point for freedom. I'd much rather see people fight for their own freedom, then do it for them like Afghanistan where they not only don't help but impede progress with misinformation and poor translations etc


Ah yes, the US..the new Great Colossus and Bastion of freedom....
welcoming all who sail into New York's harbour in hopes to be an American...

"With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I give you...
Randy's Newman's parody song about America..(*Sail Away*) 

"in America, we gots food to eat,
doan need to run through the jungle and scuff up our feet,
we jes talk about Jesus and drink wine all day...
It's good to be an American...
Sail Away, Sail away, cross the mighty ocean to Charleston Bay"

Besides the "Indian wars" and enslavement of the blacks captured in Africa,
treated and bred like cattle, brutalized by the South's gentlemen-plantation owners, resulting in one of the bloodest civil wars in the worlds history....
...with brother taking sides and arms against brother,
on that those glorious civil war battlefields enshrined forever in their hearts....shooting, stabbing, cannon grape shots tearing bodies apart..Mannasas, Antietam, Shiloh... civil rights uprisings, bombings, killings, and the US constitution allowing the right to bear arms....Guns! Guns! Guns!

CSN (Crosby, Stills & Nash) had a song back in the eighties about these
struggles.."find the price of freedom buried in the ground".

....As it was in the beginning, is now, and more than likely will be as long as
man is around to live by the sword and die by the sword. 



> Turkey is interesting as a kind of middle ground. I don't necessarily agree with their way of life, but I respect it and I agree with him that our society has some serious over-reactive developments (suing for everything imaginable spending a fortune in courts, women divorcing everyone taking all their money sleeping around at young age and just general hatred for men, bubble wrapped kids who grow up to be serious pansies who couldn't defend themselves from a butterfly in a crisis) Of course these are minor but it looks ridiculous as well from the eyes of another culture


Turkey is a modern Islamic republic. Kamal Attaturk (the father of the Turks)
changed their history and direction, and unlike some of the other Islamic
republics still living within a culture that is over a thousand years old and
hasn't changed much since...Turkey is an exception because of the reformation that took place under Attaturk. 
I agree that we as a western society now have become to permissive in liberty and freedom in some cases..especially when it comes to litigation....lawyers get rich preying upon the poor and not always capable of swinging the judges decisions. 



> Most Americans tend to hold ourselves on a pedestal and look down on every other society. Thing is, we are not perfect and we can't expect everyone to be like us. In fact most cultures despise Americans for this yet they still perceive Canadians as tolerant people (though I'm realizing we're very close compared to Europeans and just as ignorant of other cultures) I work with Turks everyday and though they are the red headed step childs of NATO, I can respect they are different and I look forward to living there for awhile.


The US is basically "formed" out of revolution, Civil war and, WWII attack on Pearl 
Harbour and other civil insurrections where *their cost of freedom was paid in blood by somebody*. War is a barbaric form of settling a dispute. 

While there may be an eventual winner and loser, it is jungle mentality, where the strongest (or craftiest), will overpower the stronger/weaker and kill him..especially today with modern weapons..technology makes it so impersonal..all you do is press a button and "poof!" your target or enemy disappears. 
We all saw on TV from the cockpit gun cameras of WWII, and from US warplanes whacking Saddam's bunkers with smart bombs.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> 1. We had a clean slate to build a new society in N America. Did you witness how we wiped out the natives and enslaved the blacks and eventually let women vote too?
> 
> 2. I don't look down on other cultures that have been around far longer than ours, and cannot simply adopt our way of life in a day.
> 
> ...


1. I get so tired of receiving a history lecture every time I have a view that someone may not like/agree with; give your opinion and I promise that I'll read it with great interest & with an open mind because I'm always eager to learn. *Misquote & castigate* me and write with sarcasm & then I'm not so interested in what you have to say. 

I was specifically referring to what I witnessed on TV this past week, ie, the killing of Gaddafi, not about historical events that took place decades/centuries ago; I know global history quite well as I have lived/studied in numerous countries, so don't lecture me about what constitutes barbarism vs civilization. Further, I did *not* say the *Arab culture* was barbaric at all and not that it's any of your business or that I owe you any explanation, but I'm actually fascinated by the ME culture; language, music, food, ancient architecture, etc., but not so much with the barbaric/violent aspects of some of their *customs/ideologies/traditions,* which I'm free to express because thank goodness I'm Canadian! 

Please save your barbarism of slavery lecture for another thread, and while at it, maybe you want to lecture us on the barbarism of the Americans/Aztecs/Nazis/Incas/Mayans/Romans/Spaniards/Ottomans or whatever else comes to your mind & heart. 

2. Aawww, so tolerant of you, so I guess you have patience/understanding for this: [you're confusing culture with tradition].

http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/cana...l+drowning+murder+trial/6442505725/story.html

3. You don't know what you're talking about.

4. I can assure you that I know more about Turkey than you; have been there many times, not in the Ottoman Empire days mind you, but as recent as 4 years ago, how about you?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> 1. It certainly opened my eyes with the living conditions
> and pollution that country is faced with. 10+ million in Istanbul alone...
> 
> 2. still looking for admittance to the EU.
> ...


1. 1986 was a long time ago, if you went today, you probably would not recognize the place, but what has not changed is the pollution; population has gotten worse & the horrific traffic is not for the faint of heart. Istanbulites sure are patient to put up with such chaos, but the city is no less fascinating. 

Not surprisingly, the city did not make the list of 10, but we sure did! 

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-255364-melbourne-tops-liveable-city-list-istanbul-109th.html

2. It has fought so hard for EU admittance and well, I could write a book about this, so I'll stop here, suffice it to say that it won't happen anytime soon and frankly, I put most of the blame on the Turkish government.

3. I'll refrain from commenting. 

The link you gave is a year old, a lot has changed politically since then. I could say a lot about their foreign policy as well, but I'm not in the mood.

As usual, I enjoyed reading your insightful comments!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

1. My point was that we all have barbaric roots, no sarcasm there. We are more developed now, but we all had to fight barbarically at one point. We could have sent in the professional troops in place of barbarians, it would have taken 10 years to accomplish much less because we have lawyers vetoing every decision now and we cannot accept the losses that the rebels did. They didn't release any proof of Bin Laden's capture, because it probably would have been the same reaction from the arm chair critics.

2. How exactly do you expect Libyans to adopt our law and order so quickly? A tradition is a ritual that is repeated, a historical way of doing things, killing Gaddafi was not a tradition or ritual in any way. Killing a sheep as an offering is a tradition. Cultural norms are acceptable behaviors within a society today, it's a subconscious belief of how to live and conduct yourself now and today. Killing without a judge and jury trial has been quite normal under the Gaddafi regime. An eye for an eye justice is a cultural norm in much of the ME, as I'm sure it was for us at one time before we developed a more advanced system. This is not a tradition, though the difference of culture and tradition are subtle and easily confused

3. There's a balance, I don't expect other cultures to suddenly adopt our way of life in their own land. If they come here, of course they need to abide by the law of the land (you post a link about Kingston, what does that have to do with law in the ME?) They obviously weren't ready for the culture shock. Where they're from, teenage girls don't have boyfriends and I'm not saying that's right, it just has nothing to do with Libyan rebels. I'm sure there are things that we do that will be considered wrong by our predecessors as well

4. You say you can assure things but you have no clue where I've been or done? My job takes me to Turkey several times among many other places. I may not know as much about Turkey but it's not the only country I spend time in. Turkey is very close with Western military as you probably know. It looks like I'll be living there soon judging by neighbours. If anything, I could declare I know more than you because I've never seen tourists where I go, but that would be pointless


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> 1. My point was that we all have barbaric roots.
> 2. How exactly do you expect Libyans to adopt our law and order so quickly?
> 3. killing Gaddafi was not a tradition or ritual in any way.
> 4. (you post a link about Kingston, what does that have to do with law in the ME?)
> ...


1. And my point had not been the planet's human barbarism. Of course there are barbaric roots in all, but if I'm talking about Arabs/Libyans, I don't want to hear about American/Canadian barbarism, verstehst du? 

2. I didn't expect such thing, but in any case, it should have been their order [not ours], but that did not stop my personal detestation for what they did [and please don't ask me if other events don't repulse me as much]. 

3. I did not say that either; it was retributionary justice, hence barbaric!! Also, clapping, dancing & singing amidst the crowds around Gadaffi's bloodied body with small children sitting atop their fathers' shoulders was enough to have made me wanna puke [don't ask me what other things make me bring up the contents of my stomach]. This is indeed Arab tradition as we all have witnessed numerous times [I sure hope you won't bring Osama into this].

4. YOU asked me: *"Did you witness how we wiped out the natives and enslaved the blacks and eventually let women vote too?"* So what did that have to do with the laws of Libya? 
Honor killing at least is related to the Arab world & it is a barbaric custom that it is still being practiced TODAY, so please stay with the present, otherwise my ADHD will kick in. 

5. No, but all to do with Arab tradition.

6. You're right and I apologize for that!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Toronto.gal, it all comes down to different culture. We are all human just that different things are subconsciously acceptable. I'm actually appalled when Canadians celebrate hunting and killing animals with their kids. If you travel to some parts of Canada right now (outside the GTA) you will see Moose heads strapped to vehicles to just to show them off. Canadians are appalled to see Arabs killing a camel, even though they discard the head immediately and share the meat. I'm actually the one who called it despicable for Americans to celebrate the death of Bin Laden. *Ironically, you thought that was perfectly ok*

What I've been arguing here, is that we can't condone others for what is socially acceptable to them. I guess I just see through our own cultural norms, and find it hypocritical of us to be appalled by everyone else's. Just because our culture is more sophisticated now than it was, does not mean every culture has advanced to the same stage, hence the examples from the past.



Toronto.gal said:


> All this talk and bleeding hearts for this poor terrorist SOB [Osama] having been unarmed or about his burial, makes me want to puke; weren't all the 9/11 [and many others] *innocent* victims also unarmed?


And now you are a bleeding heart for Gaddafi? What about all the innocent victims he killed?



Toronto.gal said:


> Someone said the celebrations of bin Laden's death in the US were despicable, really? For the US and those that celebrated, it was a moral celebration and more to do with a sense of national pride than anything else.


So there you have it, according to you it is ok to have a moral celebration of someone's death TODAY.

We have an opposite outlook on culture. I like to point out that our own can progressed more, yet I can understand that other cultures are behind (where we used to be). You are ok with our culture, and appalled by others. As usual I play devil's advocate


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Animal hunting? What is wrong with you??!! Hunting animals is not right, but again, you're getting completely off topic. 

Celebrating the death of terrorists/dictators & even innocent people [regardless of nationality] & with small children and candy, isn't a tradition with the American public, is it? So no irony there. I have NO problem that Osama/Gaddafi were killed, they both deserved death, but the former was not a vicious assassination for the world to see while the latter was. Of course neither of us were there to be sure how exactly they died, but we can only form an opinion by what we read.

You can have the last word if that makes you happy, but I won't be paying attention.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I prefer to drive around with an elk head tied to my hood. Moose heads are so bourgeoisie.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

tch you know it's sunday evening of a dull weekend when a squabble breaks out between 2 of the nicest people on cmf forum ...

t.gal we need something far more objective than the state of your stomach to help decide whether assassinations/executions are just or unjust ...

& mode with respect to the honour killing of 4 women by their father & brother being tried currently in kingston, the argument that teenage girls don't have boyfriends where they come from is weak indeed.

they left afghanistan many years ago & were living in dubai. The son, who took an active part in the murders, is very young. He's the same age as his 3 sisters whom he drowned. Like them, he has spent years here in canada. He would have gone to school in canada. It's beyond appalling that he agreed with his loco parents.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The first law implemented by the new regime in Libya, was lifting the ban on polygamy. They also claim they will implement "sharia" law, including forbidding banks to charge interest.

Sadly, it looks like there will be no freedom for the people of Libya.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> t.gal we need something far more objective than the state of your stomach to help decide whether assassinations/executions are just or unjust ....


Alright then, I'll come up with a list shortly.  Btw, I like you too! 

*"Gaddafi still on show, rotting as wrangling goes on"*
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/gaddafi-still-on-show-rotting-as-wrangling-goes-on-426860.html


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't understand how Libyans can put Gadaffi on display for so many days and have young kids in the line up to see it either. 

The Surreal Ruins of Qaddafi’s Never-Never Land


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> & mode with respect to the honour killing of 4 women by their father & brother being tried currently in kingston, the argument that teenage girls don't have boyfriends where they come from is weak indeed.
> 
> they left afghanistan many years ago & were living in dubai. The son, who took an active part in the murders, is very young. He's the same age as his 3 sisters whom he drowned. Like them, he has spent years here in canada. He would have gone to school in canada. It's beyond appalling that he agreed with his loco parents.


Yea but they moved to Canada and are subject to our law is different than judging people for what they do in their own country. We were talking about Libyans in Libya. Using an anecdote for an argument that is only related by race/religion is pretty weak/racist imo. I never said killing your daughters was ok

I guess I'm just more the kind of person to judge ourselves first, and try to understand others instead. I could tell you lots of things about Afghani culture but it wasn't really on topic. The girls wouldn't have had boyfriends in Afghanistan, and people who grew up in Canada are just as stubborn to drop old rules that are "just the way we do things" Rules you grew up with will subconsciously enrage you, even if there is no rational. It takes a new generation in a new environment to really change

There is nothing inherently wrong that I can think of with polygamy. Of course I grew up in monogamy so that is defined to me a right and I have nothing against it. I'm just saying that just because something has always been a certain way, does not mean it's right or wrong. What is rational reason against polygamy? A reason that is not religious? Of course anyone who grew up with monogomy,is outraged by polygomy because "it just isn't right"


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> I don't understand how Libyans can put Gadaffi on display for so many days and have young kids in the line up to see it either.


American kids grow up in a bubble wrapped world and never witness anything gruesome in real life, yet they witness it all on TV guaranteed if not worse. I would say this is worse as they are desensitized yet learn no street smarts

I find that in other cultures, kids grow up in much more dangerous and unsheltered life. Kids who grow up on farms in Canada are quite used to gruesome things and danger much like kids in other cultures (shrug)


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