# Transfer RRSP from B2B account



## MoneyFan (Feb 22, 2021)

I have group RRSP with my previous employer. One month ago I quit that job and started to work for new company.

That group RRSP had very confusing multilevel management structure as follows:
Agent/Financial advisor -> Dealer -> B2B Bank account <- Mawer mutual fund

To add more confusion I receive reports about my RRSP from all these four levels.
At the beginning I terribly upset financial advisor by turning down his offer of mutual funds and requesting instead Mawer mutual funds.
Since that he hardly answer any questions from me and minimized our communication close to none.

Once I left my previous employer financial advisor sent to me E-mail informing me that I have to transfer
B2B account to a personal RRSP, by sending the transfer form (T2033) to B2B directly.

Anyone understand the meaning of that statement?
Why should I transfer B2B account?
Where should I transfer?
Isn't B2B account already my personal RRSP?
What is form T2033 and where can I get it?

Thanks


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

If you just want Mawer funds, you should be able to easily do that yourself at a discount broker. Pick a new institution, set up an appointment, and go in with your documentation. Tell the person you deal with you wish to transfer the B2B assets to the new direct investing account. They will take care of the paperwork.

I seem to recall B2B has a brokerage, of some kind. You may be able to transfer your holdings to a different account at B2B, if that interests you.

If you want your funds managed by a different full service person, it's basically the same process. Find the new manager, tell them you want to transfer, and they will fill out the forms.

This shouldn't be a big deal but the funds will probably go into hyperspace for 90~120 days. I've transferred a couple of pensions and, both times, the funds were unavailable for over 90 days. I believe they are legally obligated to transfer the funds within 90 days but I've never heard of it happening that fast.

For what it's worth, I believe you will be better served in the long run with a discount broker and buying your own Mawer funds.


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## MoneyFan (Feb 22, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> If you just want Mawer funds, you should be able to easily do that yourself at a discount broker. Pick a new institution, set up an appointment, and go in with your documentation. Tell the person you deal with you wish to transfer the B2B assets to the new direct investing account. They will take care of the paperwork.


By "discount broker" do you mean for example Questrade or similar?
I don't understand why should I at all transfer RRSP from B2B?

Thanks


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm sure you can keep your funds at B2B. I've never dealt with them so I don't recommend them specifically. You should be able to learn more by searching this forum.

If you decided to stay at B2B, you should be able to engage them for the transfer. It's probably going to end up being a locked in RRSP.

If you wish to transfer somewhere else, there are a lot of brokerage houses and all of them have been discussed on this web site. You have plenty of good information to reference.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MoneyFan said:


> By "discount broker" do you mean for example Questrade or similar?
> I don't understand why should I at all transfer RRSP from B2B?
> 
> Thanks


 ... from Tom16's post #2, if this is true:



> _I seem to recall B2B has a brokerage, of some kind. You may be able to transfer your holdings to a different account at B2B, if that interests you._


 ... then open up a "personal" RRSP at the B2B brokerage, and have your existing Mawer funds "transferred-in-kind" over via the form T2033. Or if you have a "personal" RRSP already just at the B2B bank level, you can try to have your existing Mawer funds from the group RRSP transferred over also via the form T2033 but this is dependent if the B2B bank allows that.

The difference between the brokerage (any) versus the bank is dependent on whether you can transfer the existing Mawer funds in (which you want to retain).

*Bottomline: *Your ex-employer want you out of their group RRSP plan, enjoying whatever low MER but no service or crappy dealer service.

*PS: *You want to make sure those assets you're transferring out of the group "RRSP" is indeed "RRSP" monies, and not that of your ex-employer pension plan like a DC. In this case, it's not a lock-in RRSP (contrary to Tom16's post #4 or going into a LIRA (locked-in retirement account).


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Exactly right, Beaver.

It appears a pension transfer would require a T2151 to move the funds to a Li-RRSP.

The T2033 is a transfer between registered accounts.

I don't fully understand why he has to move from B2B but it likely has to do with account authority the managers have over the account.

Whatever the case, I'm sure B2B can help transfer to a different account at B2B, assuming this is the OP's wish.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Exactly right, Beaver.
> 
> It appears a pension transfer would require a T2151 to move the funds to a Li-RRSP.
> 
> ...


 ... if B2B wishes to retain the business, then they should be glad/able to help him.


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## cardhu (May 26, 2009)

MoneyFan said:


> ...financial advisor sent to me E-mail informing me that I have to transfer
> B2B account to a personal RRSP ...Anyone understand the meaning of that statement?


You are no longer part of the “group” and therefore are no longer eligible for whatever terms and conditions apply to that GRSP contract.

They picked up on it fast … when I left an employer in the mid-90s, it took the provider nearly a year to figure out I was no longer part of the group … when they finally clued in, they offered to shift my holdings to a personal RRSP under their administration, but I declined and merged those former GRSP assets with my existing personal RRSP at one of the big bank brokerages.



> Why should I transfer B2B account?


You’re no longer part of the “group”. Perhaps B2B doesn’t deal directly with the public. Perhaps they only deal with advisors, and that advisor doesn't particularly want your business.



> Where should I transfer?


You can transfer it anywhere you like … if the GRSP account is the only RRSP you currently have, then you can pick any institution that strikes your fancy … just set up a new RRSP at another institution, and arrange for them to transfer the contents of your GRSP into the new account.

If you already have another RRSP at another institution, you could just merge the GRSP assets into that. 

Either way, the important point is that it is always the RECEIVING institution that initiates the transfer. Just tell them what you want to do, they know all about RRSP transfers.

Also note that not all RRSPs can hold mutual funds … it would have to be a brokerage account of some kind, as opposed to a simple GIC-only RRSP account as some of the online banks offer.



> Isn't B2B account already my personal RRSP?


Yes and no …

YES in the sense that your GRSP account is indistinguishable under the law from any other RRSP … in fact, there is no such thing as a “GRSP” in the law … GRSP is a private contractual arrangement between an employer and a provider, to offer RRSP accounts to members of a defined “group” 

NO in the sense that your account with B2B was established under the “group” arrangement, and you are no longer a member of that group. 



> What is form T2033 and where can I get it?


You don’t need to get it … T2033 is the form that a financial institution uses, to transfer RRSP assets between accounts, WITHOUT tax implication … it is the only way to move RRSP funds without the removal of funds from the existing account being treated as a taxable withdrawal. 

Your new broker/financial institution knows what it is, and can supply it as part of your account setup. You don’t need to hunt down a copy of it yourself, although you can if you want … I find google works pretty well for that sort of thing. 

A couple of other points …

Be sure to double-check that your receiving institution does NOT set up your new RRSP account as a Locked-In RRSP … banks & brokers do make mistakes from time to time, and that is one I’ve seen and experienced … if you don’t catch it right away, it can be a bugger to undo later.
Some brokers don’t offer Mawer funds for sale, although they would probably accept it as a transfer in … just be aware that if you want to continue to use Mawer for future purchases, there’ll be a smaller subset of brokerages to choose from.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I'll just add a few points to the good advice above. Sounds like you have a Group RRSP and not anything pension like so the transfer would be on a T2033 and it is unlikely anything would be locked in. It is not a pension. It is a group RRSP.

2nd Point. B2B deals with dealers and not individuals so you might have a hard time just opening a new account with B2B. I suspect if that was an option you would have been offered it first. This gets a little confusing, but there are two ways to hold a mutual fund in Canada. Either in client name or nominee. Client name is where you directly invest with the fund company, even if you use a dealer to do it. Nominee is where you invest through the dealer and the money is placed in the dealers name in trust for you. So most discount brokers would hold funds in Nominee form. The benefit of Nominee is to allow you to have many different fund companies in the same account. With client name you have to have different accounts for each different fund company. Since offering Nominee services to the public is expensive, some smaller dealers outsource that offering through companies like B2B. So B2B offers the Nominee platform as a back office service to various dealers...but not to the public. I hope that makes some sense.

Anyway, if all your money is with Mawer Mutual funds, held at B2B, then the easiest way to make the transfer is to open an RRSP account directly with Mawer and use them to transfer your RRSP into a client name account under your name. Trust me. This will not take 90 days. It will happen within a couple days of you signing the appropriate forms. Remember, at the end of the day, the money is actually at Mawer. They are just directing the info feed to all these entities. Once you sign the form it is Mawer that hits the switch to change all that, and technically no money or fund units actually transfer anywhere. They just cut off the electronic feed to B2B.

I hope that makes sense. If you do have more then just mutual funds with Mawer in your B2B RRSP account, let me know and I will help guide you through what you need to do with that. Good luck.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

MoneyFan said:


> I have group RRSP with my previous employer. One month ago I quit that job and started to work for new company.
> 
> That group RRSP had very confusing multilevel management structure as follows:
> Agent/Financial advisor -> Dealer -> B2B Bank account <- Mawer mutual fund
> ...


Strange ... for the employers who offered a Group RRSP to me, the company had details and provided any signup forms. After joining the plan, all further info was from the provider like Canada Life or Sun Life.




MoneyFan said:


> ... Once I left my previous employer financial advisor sent to me E-mail informing me that I have to transfer B2B account to a personal RRSP, by sending the transfer form (T2033) to B2B directly.
> 
> Anyone understand the meaning of that statement?


That's the form I used to transfer from my employer's Group RRSP to my own RRSP.

The employer is paying the FI so likely this means the employer is stopping to pay for your account so you are being kicked out of their plan. I had both of mine transferred to my discount brokerage RRSP to give me a wider range of investment choices.




MoneyFan said:


> ... Isn't B2B account already my personal RRSP?


I doubt it. When I left my second Group RRSP (well, left the employer), the FI offered to open a personal RRSP and transfer the Group RRSP contents to it (with increased fees, of course).



MoneyFan said:


> ... What is form T2033 and where can I get it?


It's the paperwork to transfer the contents or proceeds of an RRSP to another RRSP, without a withdrawal.

It's available at ... https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/cra-arc/formspubs/pbg/t2033/t2033-21e.pdf

I typically went into the receiving institution's office to fill out the form and deliver it. That way, I had help with any entries that I was confused about and instead of mailing it somewhere, they put it into their interoffice system.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> ... It appears a pension transfer would require a T2151 to move the funds to a Li-RRSP ...


The receiving part of the form makes no mention of a LIRA or Locked In RRSP.
Plus IIRC, it was a different form to get my DB pension CV moved into the a LIRA.




TomB16 said:


> ... I don't fully understand why he has to move from B2B but it likely has to do with account authority the managers have over the account.


My guess is that B2B does not deal with individuals. I haven't looked but at least one of the providers for a company I left offered to transfer to a personal RRSP that had higher fees and a more limited investment selection than my existing brokerage RRSP.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

cardhu said:


> ... A couple of other points …
> 
> Be sure to double-check that your receiving institution does NOT set up your new RRSP account as a Locked-In RRSP … banks & brokers do make mistakes from time to time, and that is one I’ve seen and experienced … if you don’t catch it right away, it can be a bugger to undo later.


Very true!!




cardhu said:


> ...
> 
> Some brokers don’t offer Mawer funds for sale, although they would probably accept it as a transfer in … just be aware that if you want to continue to use Mawer for future purchases, there’ll be a smaller subset of brokerages to choose from.


My experience is that if the broker does not offer it for sale, they won't accept it either. They will say one needs to sell it for cash, transfer the cash and then re-invest in whatever is available, when it arrives. 


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... then open up a "personal" RRSP at the B2B brokerage, and have your existing Mawer funds "transferred-in-kind" over via the form T2033.


Usually the FI wants to keep the fees rolling in so they send an invitation to do this transfer or create a new account to enable the transfer.

My bet is if they haven't already sent an invitation, they likely don't offer individual RRSPs.


Cheers


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Post #8 has gotten it well described. My spouse had a group RSP (GRSP) when she was working in the civil service with one of the lifecos as plan admiistrator. When she retired, she could no longer be part of the Group plan. In her case, she could have stayed in an individual plan with that Adminstrator, but at higher costs. She chose not to do so. She had RBC Direct Investing, where she had an existing RRSP, transfer her RRSP from the GRSP Administrator to RBC DI and merge with her existing RRSP. RBC DI did all the paperwork including the T2033 form. It all happened within a few weeks.

As already mentioned, some brokerages (discount brokerages in particular) will not allow one to keep Mawer mutual funds since they do not pay trailer fees. RBC DI is one will not allow it. The OP will need to check with the brokerage of his/her choice to see if they will accept Mawer funds and also allow one to purchase more. That all said, the model is changing as of June 2022 where the regulator will no longer allow discount brokerages to sell mutual funds with trailer fees. RBC Direct Investing and CIBC Investor's Edge will now charge commissions to buy mutual funds. None of this is an issue if the OP decides to hold the RRSP with a full service investment firm.

BMO Investorline and Scotia iTrade are two discount brokerages that will permit the holding and the purchase of Mawer mutual funds. They have not said anything yet about whether they will start to charge commissions to buy/sell mutual funds as of June 2022. TDDI has already come out and said they will not charge commissions but I don't know if TDDI accepts Mawer mutual funds (I assume so but don't know). I do not know anything about any of the other discount brokerages.

Added: I agree with post #9 that says B2B, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't deal at the individual investor retail level. That means the OP needs to transfer his/her RRSP account elsewhere.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> TDDI has already come out and said they will not charge commissions but I don't know if TDDI accepts Mawer mutual funds (I assume so but don't know).


They do accept Mawer mutual funds.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> Usually the FI wants to keep the fees rolling in so they send an invitation to do this transfer or create a new account to enable the transfer.
> 
> My bet is if they haven't already sent an invitation, they likely don't offer individual RRSPs.
> 
> Cheers


 ... not according to what they say in their "Investment Solutions" section:

Investment Solutions | B2B Bank

Anyhow, a quick glance of the site tells me they have limited capacity on the retail level. The good thing is they're part of the Laurentian Bank group so there're quick choices there. Whether Laurentian Bank is as good as any of the 5 biggies, that's another story.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The fine print in that link doesn't suggest anything other than banking type investment accounts. They certainly are not advertising it. 

Going to Laurentian Bank, the OP would be stuck with a Laurentian 'bank RRSP' that could have high MERs and limited mutual fund options or if they go to their discount brokerage, no one has heard of them nor has their offering been on the radar of MoneySense or Rob Carrick in discount brokerage reviews. 

Seems to me this is a bad option for the OP. If the OP does not want to go DIY, there are always the robo-advisors with their set menus. Of all of the robo-advisors, I have been most impressed with RBC InvestEase @0.5% and have had prompt email replies to questions I've had when investigating them on behalf of some extended family members. I like them even better than the hokey WeatlhSimple Invest offerings.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> The fine print in that link doesn't suggest anything other than banking type investment accounts. They certainly are not advertising it.


 ... just going by the OP's "original post" questions:



> _Once I left my previous employer financial advisor sent to me E-mail informing me that I have to transfer
> B2B account to a personal RRSP, by sending the transfer form (T2033) to B2B directly.
> 
> Anyone understand the meaning of that statement?
> ...


 ... it appears he/she wants to go with the "easiest route" "first" - retain the Mawer's funds at B2B in an RRSP. If he/she already has a "personal" RRSP at B2B, then simply transfer-in-kind over to B2B bank but on the caveat that B2B allows that (OP to find out - there's an email address in the link I provided to ask B2B questions, if not call.) If OP finds out B2B don't offer "personal" RRSPs and/or can hold the Mawer funds, then next step for him/her is to decide on a "discount brokerage" (skip the bank level)) for him/her to transfer over those funds. Easiest is to go with a discount brokerage that he/she already bank with. It has been confirmed above that TDDI accepts Mawer so that would be a choice.



> Going to Laurentian Bank, the OP would be stuck with a Laurentian 'bank RRSP' that could have high MERs and limited mutual fund options


 ... I didn't suggest OP move there but B2B is part of the Laurentian Bank group so there're choices at the bank - the OP in noway is stuck with any bank. In fact, based on what you now stated "limited fund options", I'm hard press to believe Laurentian Bank would accept Mawer funds.


> or if they go to their discount brokerage, no one has heard of them nor has their offering been on the radar of MoneySense or Rob Carrick in discount brokerage reviews.
> 
> Seems to me this is a bad option for the OP. If the OP does not want to go DIY, there are always the robo-advisors with their set menus. Of all of the robo-advisors, I have been most impressed with RBC InvestEase @0.5% and have had prompt email replies to questions I've had when investigating them on behalf of some extended family members. I like them even better than the hokey WeatlhSimple Invest offerings.


 ... it'll be up to the OP to do his/her homework. One step at a time, 1. transfer to a personal RRSP with Mawer funds retained, 2. determine which institution accepts the Mawer funds, and 3. does he/she wants to do further investing at such institution.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

People cling to their banks like they cling to a religious point of view. I would advise the OP to carefully consider where they wish to move to, instead of taking the easiest path. The choice they make now is likely to be in their life for decades.

This forum is the best source of feedback on Canadian brokerage houses that I've found on the net.


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## MoneyFan (Feb 22, 2021)

Thank you everyone for responses.

Yes, I want to retain Mawer mutual funds for time being.

When you say "discount brokerage" do you mean for Questrade, WeatlhSimple or similar?

Apart from question whether the certain "discount brokerage" accept Mawer funds or not, what are other considerations when choosing specific "discount brokerage" to hold RRSP?


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

The major banks all have discount brokerages plus there are others, like you mention. Again, this site is probably the best research tool for brokerages that is available, anywhere.

A discount brokerage is just a brokerage where they do not offer advice. I've been around since before discount brokerages existed. Back in the day, you would call your broker, ask him to buy or sell something, and then argue with him about how to invest your money. We've come a long way. lol!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MoneyFan said:


> Yes, I want to retain Mawer mutual funds for time being.
> 
> When you say "discount brokerage" do you mean for Questrade, WeatlhSimple or similar?
> 
> Apart from question whether the certain "discount brokerage" accept Mawer funds or not, what are other considerations when choosing specific "discount brokerage" to hold RRSP?


If you want to retain your Mawer funds, then you will almost certainly have to go with a DIY discount broker. Questrade is a discount broker but I'd be surprised if they will allow you to hold Mawer funds. WealthSimple Invest is a robo-advisor whiile WealthSimple Trade is a discount broker where I am pretty sure you cannot hold Mawer mutual funds.

You probably should review MoneySense and Globe & Mail  rankings with the caveat that they tend to be biased towards lowest trading costs. At least one of them, RBC Direct Investing, won't let you hold Mawer mutual funds.. No one can make up your mind for you since we all have our biases here on who we use, e.g. we are with the ones we are because we prefer it that way.

There is also a new wrinkle where discount brokerages can no longer accept trailer fees from mutual funds, so some of them, CIBC and RBC so far, are saying they will charge purchase commissions to buy mutual funds. At least one, TDDI, has said they will not do that but that could change in the future. Globe & Mail article behind paywall

My advice would be to consider a discount brokerage that is associated with one of the big banks you deal with already as one criteria, as well as from the ratings that suits your purpose the best. There is no best answer but I'd suggest RBC Direct Investing is not the one for reasons already articulated.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... not according to what they say in their "Investment Solutions" section:
> 
> Investment Solutions | B2B Bank
> 
> Anyhow, a quick glance of the site tells me they have limited capacity on the retail level. The good thing is they're part of the Laurentian Bank group so there're quick choices there ...


Did your research tell you whether B2B and/or LB accepts Mawer funds?
I was interrupted when checking earlier and now have had the link refuse to load multiple times since then.




Beaver101 said:


> ... it'll be up to the OP to do his/her homework. One step at a time, 1. transfer to a personal RRSP with Mawer funds retained, 2. determine which institution accepts the Mawer funds, and 3. does he/she wants to do further investing at such institution.


Agree it is impoprtant for the OP to do their homework.

Personally, I'd put your number 2 as my number 1 because if one or both of B2B and LB won't accept Mawer funds then finding who which FI will and whether that FI fits what is desired is likely the starting line. 




TomB16 said:


> People cling to their banks like they cling to a religious point of view. I would advise the OP to carefully consider where they wish to move to, instead of taking the easiest path. The choice they make now is likely to be in their life for decades.


Hmmm ... I guess I'm an outlier than as the only one I've clung to was solely because it made it easy to move money in and out of the discount brokerage. The few times it's been used for something else is when I forgot about a bill and couldn't get into my main account and for documentation of charitable fund raising.

Cheers


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> Did your research tell you whether B2B and/or LB accepts Mawer funds?
> I was interrupted when checking earlier and now have had the link refuse to load multiple times since then.
> ...
> Agree it is impoprtant for the OP to do their homework.
> ...


 ... I'm leaving the research aka the homework to the OP ... cheers toorios.


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## MoneyFan (Feb 22, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> Questrade is a discount broker but I'd be surprised if they will allow you to hold Mawer funds.


FYI: I've contacted Questrade, they do allow and accept Mawer funds.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Good to know. I know Rob Carrick has always mentioned RBC Direct Investing as a specific place that doesn't allow Mawer funds, but I've never heard whether 'everyone else' does or not.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Fortuitous thread - My wife is about to need to do the same thing. Transferirng a group RRSP from work to a personal one at a different institute (we don't bank at RBC otherwise - it's just where her group RRSP is).



Eclectic21 said:


> My experience is that if the broker does not offer it for sale, they won't accept it either. They will say one needs to sell it for cash, transfer the cash and then re-invest in whatever is available, when it arrives.


I'm stumped here how this process happens easily with the above "sell" step. Her current RRSP is in a money market fund. All that this "account" ever had for investment options was a small select from a predefined funds list.

How do I sell the funds to just sit as cash? This seems to not be an option in the pre-established investment templates on the RBC website at the group RRSP mutual funds page. Have I lucked out here perhaps and can skip this step because the money happen to be invested in the "money market" fund already? i.e. cash?... Looking to avoid a visit to the bank, with the wife, to speak with the mutual fund saleslady about liquidating the account, which is guaranteed to be an unpleasant, confrontational experience.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Take the documents from the employer with you to whatever institution you want the funds transferred to. From what I recall, most, if not all, group RSPs need to be liquidated into cash before transferring. Transferring in-kind is rarely an option as the group rsp funds are usually invested in specialized series of funds that are not available to individual investors outside of a group rsp plan.

the receiving institution will help you complete the paperwork. I believe form t2033 or t2152 have options to redeem (transfer) as cash vs in-kind.

I sure hope we’re not talking about a lot of money that’s been sitting in money market for any period of time. Surely there were a handful of balanced or equity funds available……likely at a reduced MER given the group plan.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

PS, I would never recommend dealing with the current institution when looking to transfer Out funds. Always easier to work with the receiving institution who has a vested interest in speeding the process up and following up on transfer requests.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree with both posts #28 and #29. Take a current statement (fax, PDF, or whatever) to the receiving institution which will then tell you which assets they will accept 'transfer in kind' and which ones need to be sold and transferred in kind. It is a simple matter of putting that information on the transfer documents and sending to the current institution.. which will follow the instructions to sell what cannot be transferred and move the cash. It is actually a pretty straightforward process that happens on a recurring basis.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> Take the documents from the employer with you to whatever institution you want the funds transferred to. From what I recall, most, if not all, group RSPs need to be liquidated into cash before transferring. Transferring in-kind is rarely an option as the group rsp funds are usually invested in specialized series of funds that are not available to individual investors outside of a group rsp plan.
> 
> the receiving institution will help you complete the paperwork. I believe form t2033 or t2152 have options to redeem (transfer) as cash vs in-kind.
> 
> *I sure hope we’re not talking about a lot of money that’s been sitting in money market for any period of time. Surely there were a handful of balanced or equity funds available……likely at a reduced MER given the group plan.*





AltaRed said:


> I agree with both posts #28 and #29. Take a current statement (fax, PDF, or whatever) to the receiving institution which will then tell you which assets they will accept 'transfer in kind' and which ones need to be sold and transferred in kind. It is a simple matter of putting that information on the transfer documents and sending to the current institution.. which will follow the instructions to sell what cannot be transferred and move the cash. It is actually a pretty straightforward process that happens on a recurring basis.



Well, not all the money...but yup. $30k now, or almost 10 years of matching RRSP savings... All sitting in money market. Uninterested/nervous spouse + aggressive bank sales staff + husband trying to stay out of it = financial loss. I guess my own investments went up 10x more last year than her whole group RRSP account would have in 10 years of a standard equity MF...so I try not to get too miffed about it  Working towards correcting things for the long term.

So the "sell" side can likely be initiated in filling out the forms from the new bank, which will direct the old bank to sell, and transfer as cash? I don't need a separate communication session with the old bank to figure out how to sell and have the cash sitting there first? Then initiate with the new bank?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

You should never need to talk to the old bank (current institution). Just work with the new institution as their folks should move mountains to help move it all to them.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I’ll repeat…never deal with the current institution when transferring, bank bashing is alive and well…..you can only imagine the level of service you’ll receive when you walk in and request to move your business out. It ends up on the bottom of the pile and stays there. Let the new (receiving) institution chase them around.

the ONLY time I would contact the current institution is to determine if there are any deferred service charges on holdings.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ And be prepared to be dinged with a transfer fee (plus tax) by your ex-bank/institution.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ And be prepared to be dinged with a transfer fee (plus tax) by your ex-bank/institution.


Valid point but not likely in this case if the OP has to move the account.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Valid point but not likely in this case if the OP has to move the account.


Agree. There should not be a fee when leaving a group rsp.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ And be prepared to be dinged with a transfer fee (plus tax) by your ex-bank/institution.


Ya, one those SECRET bank fees………..you know The ones……..that are clearly documented in writing when you open the account.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Agree. There should not be a fee when leaving a group


 ... you want to include your post response #37 here too? And replace the "bank's" secret (some secret that never fails to get "updated" (aka fees changes) "semi-annually" aka faster than changing the style of my socks) with the "financial institution's" secret?

And since when did you decide to give a free lunch on behalf of the financial institution? Plus so what it's a "group" RRSP.

I'm certain CMF member eclectic12 can tell you otherwise too.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

peterk said:


> ... So the "sell" side can likely be initiated in filling out the forms from the new bank, which will direct the old bank to sell, and transfer as cash? I don't need a separate communication session with the old bank to figure out how to sell and have the cash sitting there first? Then initiate with the new bank?


Yes ... though this assumes the receiving RRSP already exists. When I moved to a discount brokerage RRSP, the first step was to create the brokerage RRSP and then the second step was to fill out the T2033. The last part of Part B, #1 are tick boxes for "in cash" or "in kind".


https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/cra-arc/formspubs/pbg/t2033/t2033-21e.pdf



My personal RRSP to discount brokerage RRSP transfer was "in kind" while my work Group RRSP to the same discount brokerage RRSP was "in cash".

In both cases, I spoke to the brokerage and filed the form with them - not the holding FI.


Cheers

*PS*
The longest part was to keep checking the receiving account for the transfer to arrive.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Money172375 said:


> Ya, one those SECRET bank fees………..you know The ones……..that are clearly documented in writing when you open the account.


My bank RRSP to brokerage RRSP fee was waived as it was within the same financial group.

The work Group RRSP to brokerage RRSP was free as this was one of the many fees the company paid for.


Now if it was a personal RRSP at two different FIs then one should asking the receiving FI what fees they are willing to cover before opening an account or transferring.




Beaver101 said:


> ... And since when did you decide to give a free lunch on behalf of the financial institution? Plus so what it's a "group" RRSP.
> 
> I'm certain CMF member eclectic12 can tell you otherwise too.


I have done two Group RRSP to personal brokerage RRSP transfers (as well as asked for several other Group RRSP plans).

If a fee was paid, it was included in the suite of fees the company paid separately to the FI so that the account value was unchanged.


Cheers

*PS*
IIRC, I've personally asked for four Group RRSP plans and friends have asked over the years, about ten Group RRSP plans. It seems the transfer fee being waived is a perk of Group RRSPs as the answer is always that the transfer is free.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

deleted duplicate info


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> My bank RRSP to brokerage RRSP fee was waived as it was within the same financial group.


 ... obviously, no brainer for the bank.



> The work Group RRSP to brokerage RRSP was free as this was one of the many fees the company paid for.


 ... I can see a "no-fee" policy for the OP since it's a final move. But I'm not certain a company would be generous enough to "pay for the many of" fees (aka "free) when an employee decides to move his group RRSP funds (once his contributions have been matched) to his own brokerage "many" of times in the year.

It may look "free" or company-paid for but I'm certain it's captured in the "customized" MERs, shared by all members. You could say the custodial fee is free, but even then I'm hard pressed to believe there is no "administration" fee charged to the said group RRSP. I'm not aware of any any banks / financial institutions employees working for free.



> Now if it was a personal RRSP at two different FIs then one should asking the receiving FI what fees they are willing to cover before opening an account or transferring.


 ... that was the gist of my message with the "be prepared for the ding" ... moreso for peterk.



> I have done two Group RRSP to personal brokerage RRSP transfers (as well as asked for several other Group RRSP plans).


 ... similar here, only with a LIRA (which is basically a self-directed RRSP, only locked-in) which was sometime ago (before the financial institutions got the idea of keep its shareholders 110% happy with the continuous dividends) from one institution to another and then to another. First was a force-out, similar to the OP. Second move was dinged a fee.



> If a fee was paid, it was included in the suite of fees the company paid separately to the FI so that the account value was unchanged.


 ... see above, the "hiddens".

*



PS

Click to expand...

*


> IIRC, I've personally asked for four Group RRSP plans and friends have asked over the years, about ten Group RRSP plans. It seems the transfer fee being waived is a perk of Group RRSPs as the answer is always that the transfer is free.


 ... see above, the "hiddens'. Plus you don't check, you don't ask, then don't be surprised with a fee being deducted from your final value. This is the year 2022 and financial institutions are very up to date with the banks being the most notorius. Money### would love this. 

Cheers too.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It will obviously pay for the OP to be aware of (or not to be suprised about) about any 'transfer out' fee but far too much fuss is being made of this in this thread. The OP is moving on to new things and it is time to move the account as part of that. Don't lose sight of the forest for a few stupid little trees..


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> It will obviously pay for the OP to be aware of (or not to be suprised about) about any 'transfer out' fee but far too much fuss is being made of this in this thread. The OP is moving on to new things and it is time to move the account as part of that. Don't lose sight of the forest for a few stupid little trees..


 ... the OP doesn't have a choice to move, does he/she?

As for the "fuss" being made on a few "stupid little trees" by not seeing the forest, I would normally agree with you but actions of other reader(s) to this thread would say otherwise.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It's a red herring. Focus on the forest.... To put these kinds of things into perspective:

on a $100k account, a $100 fee is a one time commission (MER) of 0.1%
on a $200k account, a $100 fee is no longer measurable in the scheme of things
market moves in any given hour can be more than that. In TWO trading hours today so far, the market has moved far more than that, i.e. -0.6% for the S&P and +0.6% for the TSX. The transfer fee is already lost in the rounding.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Add in that if there is a fee that applies to one's particular situation - there's likely no way to avoid it.
The potential mitigation is if the receiving FI will pay for it.

Cheers


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## cardhu (May 26, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> most, if not all, group RSPs need to be liquidated into cash before transferring.


Definitely not all, and I question whether “most” is true either. 

GRSPs administered by an insurance company would have a higher likelihood of using proprietary funds … but have insurance companies captured _“most”_ of the GRSP market? … I don’t know what their market share is, but I do know they don’t have a monopoly ... and many GRSPs administered by non-insurance advisors use common (non-proprietary) mutual funds that are widely available to the general public … for example Mawer funds, which the OP referred to.

As described upthread, when I got booted out of the GRSP of my former employer, I transferred the assets in that account to my RBCDI account … those assets consisted of a couple of Trimark mutual funds, and they were transferred in kind … no objections, no questions asked, not even a hint of any complications … no expectation that everything would be liquidated to cash prior to transfer.
……...

To address a bit of misinformation from upthread … posts #14, & 22 have falsely suggested that RBCDI does not allow one to hold Mawer funds … Mawer New Canada begs to differ, as it has resided quite happily in my RBCDI account for years, without a peep from the folks that the rumour mill insists do not allow it to be kept there.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

cardhu said:


> To address a bit of misinformation from upthread … posts #14, & 22 have falsely suggested that RBCDI does not allow one to hold Mawer funds … Mawer New Canada begs to differ, as it has resided quite happily in my RBCDI account for years, without a peep from the folks that the rumour mill insists do not allow it to be kept there.


A number of folks in these forums have not been able to buy Mawer funds at RBC DI and my spouse could not buy Mawer funds in her RBC DI account either. You may have skipped by somehow with an 'in kind' transfer at some point in time in the past but try to buy more.


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## cardhu (May 26, 2009)

No, I purchased it through RBCDI ... but this thread has nothing to do with buying more ... posts #14 & 22 refer to holding/keeping Mawer funds ... the OP already owns the funds.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Whatever may actually be the case, it is not worth arguing about since RBC DI is not the place to go with an account if one is a mutual fund buyer, not with their new policy of charging 1% (up to $50) to buy mutual funds. RBC DI may have to retreat from the excesses of that policy if no one follows it to that degree.... or not care if retail investors leave them for other brokerages.


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## cardhu (May 26, 2009)

I'm not arguing, I just pointed out some mistakes in your posts. 
I agree that for the OP, there are likely better alternatives than RBCDI.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

cardhu said:


> Definitely not all, and I question whether “most” is true either.
> 
> GRSPs administered by an insurance company would have a higher likelihood of using proprietary funds … but have insurance companies captured _“most”_ of the GRSP market? … I don’t know what their market share is, but I do know they don’t have a monopoly ... and many GRSPs administered by non-insurance advisors use common (non-proprietary) mutual funds that are widely available to the general public … for example Mawer funds, which the OP referred to.
> 
> ...


Yes, you may be correct. But my experience is that most group RSPs are holding low cost mutual funds (Usually O-series, if I recall). Those particular series are usually not eligible for transfer. I suspect one of two things is occurring. You were holding more costly (regular series) funds and those were allowed to be transferred or you were holding a lower cost series (possibly O-series) and they transferred to a regular series or discount series (I or D) Of the same fund.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

cardhu said:


> Definitely not all, and I question whether “most” is true either ...


Don't know about "most" but I'm three for three where the non-cash MFs offered were FI specific that could not be transferred in-kind, requiring liquidation.




cardhu said:


> ... GRSPs administered by an insurance company would have a higher likelihood of using proprietary funds … but have insurance companies captured _“most”_ of the GRSP market? … I don’t know what their market share is, but I do know they don’t have a monopoly ...


Sure ... but if you want to count company Group RRSP that used insurance companies then the three Group RRSPs that I had access to used five different insurance companies (i.e. they switched insurance companies for the Group RRSP while I was an employee).


In any case ... what's going to matter to the OP as well as others in process of the same transfer is whatever the Group RRSP holds and whatever the receiving FI will allow. This other discussion about which companies are used and what has to be liquidated won't change what the situation is.


Cheers

*PS*
I'll have to find the article again but what I recall is a statement from a couple of years ago saying that insurance companies have been the Group RRSP market the longest where the top four insurance companies have over 70% of the Group RRSP market.

I suspect it's an add-on conversation.
"Now that we have your group benefits and group retirement plans worked out, would you like a group RRSP added?"


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Just an update from me. Transferred wife's group RRSP to a personal RRSP at BMO IL.

It was super sleek and fast. Just needed to open the BMO account. Was trying to figure out if I needed to print and deliver the T2033 to the bank, but BMO IL 2.0, their new interface, had this "Transfer Accounts" button. I just went through a few steps there, entered the old group RRSP account number, selected "in cash" and <1 week later the funds have arrived (the site said 10-25 business days).


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## Yasehtor (Oct 12, 2018)

I opened a RRSP account with Qtrade and the application and transfer of RRSP assets from another account was done 100% online without any difficulty. f

If OP does get dinged with a transfer fee most discount brokers will rebate the transfer fee up to a maximum, provided a minimum amount is transferred in.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I can see a "no-fee" policy for the OP since it's a final move. But I'm not certain a company would be generous enough to "pay for the many of" fees (aka "free) when an employee decides to move his group RRSP funds (once his contributions have been matched) to his own brokerage "many" of times in the year.


There was no restriction listed for the Group RRSP I transferred funds out of.

It cost someone as before mistakenly contributing to the Group RRSP, I did not receive letters from the insurance company running the Group RRSP. After the funds showed up, twice a year I received a paper update, including the marketing info for the MFs available. When the funds were gone, the updates listed there was $0.00 in the account for years.




Beaver101 said:


> ... It may look "free" or company-paid for but I'm certain it's captured in the "customized" MERs, shared by all members. You could say the custodial fee is free, but even then I'm hard pressed to believe there is no "administration" fee charged to the said group RRSP. I'm not aware of any any banks / financial institutions employees working for free.


I never said they were working for free but the company is paying for it.

The MERs for the funds I was interested in were about 0.5% and no fee was charged on the statements.
The same amount that went into the Group RRSP was credited to my personal RRSP, after the transfer paperwork was done.


Cheers


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