# What Can Canadians Do?



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Forum buddies here say save and cut back debt, be a good boy or girl and so on but what can Canada and Canadians do to promote not getting into debt or overspending.

Its tough for people to get the message of the have and have nots and how to live your life. Many on the forum think people should just cut back like an environmentalist tells people to not cut down trees they rely on to make a living.

There may not be an answer here to what Canadians in debt or overspending can do to realize and do something about it. Bank of Canada wants us to deal with spending and debt so how should people go about it and deal with the emotions? What should they or the government do to promote good financial health?

Should we require a course on money and debt before someone can first qualify for a loan? Or should we require schools from high school to college to provide mandatory courses on money management and the pit falls of life like a divorce.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I think a finance/economics course in High school should be a requirement (art was when i was in there). I think the current environment makes it just too easy for people to borrow money they shouldn't. A good friend of mine just refinanced his mortgage which he was barely affording, only too add more debt too it..which he used to buy a new tv/xbox and computer.....Some people I think will never learn.


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## sensfan15 (Jul 13, 2011)

Making it mandatory for all high school students to take a course on personal finance would be a great start. I did not learn one thing about finances while in high school. That would be a great place to start. Also, as a society we need to change the notion that more "things" means more happiness or fulfillment.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

But isn't it beneficial for our economy to have a significant portion of the population in debt? I mean if everyone paid off their credit cards on time and no one financed anything our country would lose a significant part of its gdp, because a lot of money is made off those people who are in debt. Or am I wrong?


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

The economy is dependant on people spending money they can afford but if they over spend eventually it will cave in when those debts are called in...buying stuff on debt is only delaying the pain that is ahead


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

For a lot of Canadians though it comes down to the handling of their emotions rather then handling the money itself. Start with the money handling in high school as suggested and then go deeper into the emotional side in college or as a requirement before you can get your first loans.

When it comes down to it most people know what to do they just pretend they don't know and put up the blinders like people who eat to much. Most people I talk to that have spending problems know what is happening but just don't want to go through any sort of pain handling it. I think a lot of people would do better if someone came over to their house and forced the issue which cuts down on arguing. Those recourses should be a lot easier to access so people can get started.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I've always been fascinated by the parallels between personal financial management and personal weight management. They really are parallel issues: people who have trouble controlling their weight often eat when they're not even hungry, because food is filling some other need for them. People who go into consumer debt will buy things they don't need, for the same reasons. The challenges faced by dieters and people climbing out of debt are very similar.

And the successful strategies are similar. As the saying goes, "all diets have one thing in common: they end." The key to successful lifelong weight loss is to avoid diets, and instead gradually build an approach to eating and exercise that you can maintain for the rest of your life. A diet can help you lose weight quickly, but if you revert to your old habits once the diet's over, what's the point? Better to lose weight slowly, turn your ship around gradually, and stay the course. Same goes for finances: if you take time to gradually build habits and create sustainable routines, you're much more likely to maintain successful personal finance habits for the rest of your life instead of just the next two years.

Some people can do this on their own, others need a coach or a partner to help them through the process. I could see a growing demand for money coaches (check out https://yourmoneybydesign.com/ for example) and other professionals who can help people get their finances in order, similar to Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, and diet coaches that help people achieve and maintain weight loss.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sherlock said:


> But isn't it beneficial for our economy to have a significant portion of the population in debt? I mean if everyone paid off their credit cards on time and no one financed anything our country would lose a significant part of its gdp, because a lot of money is made off those people who are in debt. Or am I wrong?


A significant portion of bank profits are made on CC holders that only pay
the bare minimum per month. On my CC statements, they indicate how
many YEARs, it would take to pay off the current balance if the only the
minimum is paid. Good for the banks, but not so good for those that keep
getting more CC cards and even store cards at 29% interest and keep
spending while only paying the monthly mininum. Easy access to CC makes
it very easy to get in over your head.

If the economy was based strictly on cash..go to your bank machine and
take out the necessary cash for the transaction..the reality of the remaining
balance on your checking or savings acct would be the wakeup call...but
if you use credit..just stick it in the merchants POS credit card terminal
and type in "OK' next to the purchase.

Monthly budgets are another thing that most don't bother with. I set
mine up from month to month and I know exactly how much money
I have coming in (fixed income) and how much the monthly expenditures
are ..and I have only one credit card that I pay off the balance each month
and get some free groceries with the points.

I use that one CC for everything to rack up as many grocery points as
possible. The CC bank must just hate me.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

People need to stop being such babies about it.

If you cant afford it - don't buy it.

So many times at work I will watch my colleagues get food ($8/day) and I limit myself. I usually will only get food on a Friday.

The problem is that people are spoiled. They need to get over it.

With all that being said: I eat when I am not hungry.

I wouldn't be surprised if I eat over 6,000-7,000 calories a day sometimes (7,000 cals would be two pounds of caloric weight intake, after digestion). Between drinking 2 litres of chocolate milk, a couple cans of coke, a whole bag of chips (sometimes 2), some pizza, a burger, couple cookies, a McDonalds combo and a Twix bar, I'm sure I come quite close to it. Not to mention some days I can even polish off a brand new box of Froot Loops or Reese Puffs cereal.

I eat extremely unhealthy and my Metabolism is not extremely great. I mean, my metabolism is good, but I still gain weight.

But I have control. I know once I hit 190lbs (I am 6ft), its time to cut the **** and start eating properly. Drinking water, eating carrots, having lean chicken, some rice, beans and salmon, and hitting the treadmill for a couple months.

I get myself back down to 170, and I go back to eating junk food.

But for me, its not a "problem." I enjoy eating. But I know that weighing over 190lbs is not good for my health (neither is the food I eat), nor is it exactly appealing for appearances. So, I correct it.

But I would never stick to a strict diet, just as I would never stick to a strict cell phone bill. I pay a premium for my cell phone, but I'm buying insurance. I'm buying my right to know that everything is unlimited. And, like food, when I diet and exercise myself down to 170lbs, I am "Buying" my right to eat as I please for the next 20lbs.

Unlike a person in debt, I have control. Self-Discipline.

The real problem with debt and most things in life is Self-Discipline. If you don't have it - you're basically screwed.

Edit: So all of this got me thinking maybe I should weigh myself to see where I'm at. With clothes and a full stomach, 177.6lbs. It looks like I've still got about 12.4lbs to go before I cut down.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

brad said:


> I've always been fascinated by the parallels between personal financial management and personal weight management.
> 
> Some people can do this on their own, others need a coach or a partner to help them through the process. I could see a growing demand for money coaches and other professionals who can help people get their finances in order, similar to Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, and diet coaches that help people achieve and maintain weight loss.


Guffaw! Money coaches? Is that like birthing coaches..."push! push!" =
"stop it!..save some!", go on a budget!".

I watch this tv show sometimes, called "Til debt do us part"..cute title for generally married partners, that have racked up humongeous debts because they can't get a grip on their lifestyle vs take home income...and are thinking about splitting up
before financial death does them part..but not realizing that splitting up doesn't
resolve them of the debt they both still owe. 

The first thing she does is take away all their credit cards and have them
go on a monthly budget with money jars for the various household expenses.
If they stick to the routine to satisfy the criteria she sets out, they
get a "$5000 reward" to pay down their debt. What the show doesn't
do is do a followup segment on these couples after a year to see it
they are still on a finanacial "diet" or reverted back to their old out of control
spending.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have seen that TV show. The incentive for people to participate is that she rewards them for making key milestones. There have been some followups but not many.

I think the whole consumer society is working against good financial management. And teaching it in school would follow the same course as Home Economics which died 20+ years ago. When everyone wants more (cars, houses. clothes, electronics), the society is doomed.

I don't see Canada as any different than the US on this score. We are different than Europe where old things are revered rather than despised. Maybe the government is better off at this moment, but that is only because of our resource-based economy.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

carver,

good show.

and I'd bet 90% of all the contestants end up back in their old ways. Just look at 'em. You can tell they just don't get it.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I think the trick is to financial management is not to want "stuff" I see some of these lives of the rich and famous houses and cars and it seems like buying yourself a whole whack of problems. 

Don't get me wrong sometimes I want things... like this summer I wanted a pool. But I don't want the problems, the cleaning, the testing, the cost. Now some folks would just go out and buy themselves a nice inground pool. If I do get one it will be an aboveground pool that can be dismantled if necessary. Nor would I buy one new. 

The other thing I see is people buying themselves big houses. Why do 2 people need a 3-4 bedroom house 2500 square feet? Even financed? 

Part of this is my family, we went to the mall to get stuff, not entertain ourselves. I see my hubby who often buys on impulse... he likes to go there and hang out. It's bizarre. 

So if you want to budget then practice not wanting crap. Just say no to more stuff.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> I think the trick is to financial management is not to want "stuff" I see some of these lives of the rich and famous houses and cars and it seems like buying yourself a whole whack of problems.
> 
> 
> *So if you want to budget then practice not wanting crap.* Just say no to more stuff.


 "If I had a million dollars..if I had a million dollars..
"B"...I would buy you a K-Car..a nice reliable automobile,
and we wouldn't have to eat Kraft dinner.
but we would..we would eat MORE of it, just get some fancy Dijon ketchups
and maybe some "Grey Poupon"?
we wouldn't have to walk to the store..
we would take a limousine, cuz it costs more..."

.and maybe a $100 bottle of wine?..instead of the cheap homemade rotgot? 

it's a nonsensical song by the BareNakedLadies, but it drives the
point home...we are now a society that want instant gratification.

No...I don't want to wait a year to save my money for that new
car or electronic gizmo..I'll just plunk down my CC and worry about
it later....


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Here's a great little short tutorial on how to get on the road to financial independence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr1nzilLtkA


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Brad is right it is like a diet. You lose the weight then go on with your life until you gain it back and have to start again or give up and get really fat. 

I know people say suck it up and do the right thing but that goes nowhere. We solve a symptom but we don't solve the problem. I am sorry but brad is on to something like possibly a coach or whatever, but that is the direction many need to go.

People need to change the way they think and the way they run their lives in order to get their finances together and not just budget and spend less.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Sherlock that is how these idiots think but in reality they know what to do like the one page brochure.

Quite frankly it makes me angry personally when I hear the video because the idiots I know do think this way. I think a hammer is needed like the ones used in black and white comedy to get through to these idiots.


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## Calgary_Girl (Apr 20, 2011)

sensfan15 said:


> Making it mandatory for all high school students to take a course on personal finance would be a great start. I did not learn one thing about finances while in high school.


I took an elective course in high school called "Personal Living Skills" and it was probably the most informative class that I ever took since it gave me information that I'm still using to this day. It taught us about RRSP's (the first time I had ever heard of RRSP's), budgeting, work interview skills, etc. It proved much more useful than Physics 101, that's for sure .

I hope courses like this are still offered and in my opinion they should be mandatory.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

I wonder whether some of the problems with attitudes to debt begin with taking student loans. I know that many folks need them to complete their degrees, but I sense that some take large loans (some have 40-50K debts before they enter the workforce), and never really get out of debt and obtain a sense of "life without debt". I could be wrong on this, but do student loans promote the idea that living with debt is "normal"?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

dubmac said:


> (some have 40-50K debts before they enter the workforce), and never really get out of debt and obtain a sense of "life without debt". I could be wrong on this, but do student loans promote the idea that living with debt is "normal"?


These could be classified as "backburner debt", low interest gov't loans
that can be paid off so much a year. A mortgage is another one with
mortgage payments equivalent to renting, so these long term debts become
in a sense a normal lifestyle for those that have gone to college and accrued this kind of debt. 

However majority of those in debt can be attributed because of CCs and lifestyle specific buying....(buy now on your <store CC> and with no down payment and no interest for 6 month deals) , running up the CC limits and just paying the minium payment, so that becomes another long term debt.
Eating out or buying fast food. Smoking/drinking habits. Two vehicle families
where the vehicles eat up a lot of the family income. 
Spurious spending with addictions..lottery tickets. 

With both partners working, usually they manage to stay in the black,
but the problem starts when one has to stay home minding the kids
or a job loss. If they are used to a life style of spending on two incomes, 
they just can't seem to manage living off one income. The TV show 
mentioned often finds couples in that situation, no savings, two wage
earners reduced to one, and living expenses keep piling up along with
the interest on the long term debt.


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

Educating high school kids, absolutely. How about educating their parents while their kids are younger so they can form healthy ideas around money? I am totally for teaching better money skills - I think we do a lousy job, but we need to educate the parents too. Kids learn what they see at home. 

We've all seen stop smoking public service announcements. Maybe it's time for a PSA on compound interest and debt.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> But I would never stick to a strict diet, just as I would never stick to a strict cell phone bill.


There is some evidence that yo-yo dieting, which is what you're doing, could lead to health problems down the line -- see http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=21745 for example.

I had a relationship for a couple of years with a low-fat cookbook author, and most of the food I ate was recipes she was testing for her cookbook. I lost about 20 pounds the first year and kept it off for more than 10 years without ever feeling like I was on a diet. What I found was that I lost all desire to eat fatty, sugar-rich foods and refined carbohydrates. Ice cream disgusted me, white rice and white bread seemed flavourless, whereas before I could easily have lunch followed by a hot fudge sundae AND a chocolate milkshake. 

In the end we are creatures of habit, and I think for most people the challenge is in giving up old habits and creating new ones. If you get into the habit of eating only when you're hungry, reducing your portion sizes, and eating a healthy diversified diet, it will gradually feel normal and any deviation from it will make you feel weird. The hard part is getting into the habit; it requires a sustained and concentrated effort at the beginning, and most people can't keep it up long enough to make it feel like their normal state.

Turning back to personal finances, I think the same process applies. When I was in debt I started by tracking all my income and expenses, and tracking my net worth. Once I started seeing some success, with the debt bar shrinking and the net worth trend rising, it motivated me to keep going...it was like a game to see how much higher I could nudge my net worth the following month. That process created new habits that I've managed to sustain ever since (I've had no debt other than a mortgage since 2002), and I don't think I'll ever go back to my old habits now.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

I actually did not know what an RRSP was until after I graduated university and was well into my first job. Then for a while I did not not know that you can have stocks or mutual funds in one, I thought you could only have a savings account in one because that's what my bank gave me when I went to the bank to open my RRSP.

Teaching about personal finance in high school is a good idea, but the problem is that most teachers don't know much about personal finance either. First the teachers will need to be taught before they are capable of teaching the students.

I remember during university, once a year there was an "osap seminar" which we had to go to where they explained how to pay off the loan, how the interest works, etc. I remember them giving out some personal finance tips at those seminars though I don't recall whether those tips were supposed to be part of the seminar or whether that was just the presenter deciding by himself to add them.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Berubeland said:


> I think the trick is to financial management is not to want "stuff" I see some of these lives of the rich and famous houses and cars and it seems like buying yourself a whole whack of problems.


I may be a little different here, but I actually dont see any problem with wanting stuff. It can be a great motivator. Frugal/simple living is fine for financial management, but there is another side of the equation. If you learn to make money, and can make enough to pay for the things you want, plus save, there is nothing wrong with that. I always found it kind of odd that people would want to limit themselves in what they wanted. My theory was always that if you wanted it bad enough, that you would find a way to make it happen (debt free of course). I think where people would be better off would be learning cost vs. benefit. For me, I can not stand it when someone tells me what to do, or if I feel restrictive in any way what so ever. I will and always have rebelled (just my personality). My child is similar too. What I have found works for me, is really looking at what it takes to get what I want, and if it's worth it. I remember as a kid, my parents would tell me we could do this or that, and I just found a way to do it to spite them. I hated cleaning, and when they said, 'Well, do you think you'll make enough money to pay for someone to do your cleaning? If you don't, then you'll need to learn how." As soon as they said that, I remember thinking, 'Yeah, I think I will focus on making more money because i hate cleaning'. 

I think that teaching people to understand the ramifications of their actions may work better, and understanding the long term consequences. For those who are spenders (like I can be), telling them not to spend will just make them want to spend more. Having them weigh out their options, will more likely give them a skill of critical thinking. 

I do agree, there are far too many people who just want the item now, and don't think about it. 



dogcom said:


> People need to change the way they think and the way they run their lives in order to get their finances together and not just budget and spend less.


This is the ironic thing, I am really good with my finances, and the healthy weight stuff, not so much. It's something that I really struggle with. Not because I don't know what I'm supposed to do but rather, there are many under lying issues. It's all about making habits. I lost 80 lbs years ago, and kept it off, until my kids were born. Now, I'm working at reestablishing the habits. I have to admit, I'm finding it really hard.

So what can Canadians do about debt, and changing things around?

I think education is one aspect, but I think it needs to start a lot young. At high school, kids don't really care that much, finance is something that should be taught at a young age. It can start with teaching kids the foundations even before money. These things include delay gratification, understanding of getting someone more later by waiting (could be marshmellows, etc). It also comes with teaching kids about choices and making wise cost benefit decisions. This all goes beyond just finance, but rather teaching people to make long term decisions. We are teaching our 2 & 5 year old delayed gratification all the time. We talk about getting some thing now, but less of it, or waiting until it goes on sale. We are teaching them about if they really want something is it worth it or not, or if what they have at home is good enough. 

What could the governement do? I normally hate government intervention, but I think they should make credit much harder to get. They should be making it harder for the banks to lend money.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

There are 3 ways to make money:
1) Trade your time for money
2) Trade your money for money
3) Trade other people's time and money for money.
Number 1 is what most people do. Investors do number 2. Entrepreneurs do number 3.

Students need to be taught the fundamentals and then learn about leverage.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

we love watching til debt do us part and my husband and I are always amazed how people earning $100,000+ can have 90k + in comsumer debt and probably under 30 years old.We are only 44 years old and do not mind sharing that when we bought our first home in 1991 we only earned about $40,000 a year combined.We have always been taught to live within our means ,we took a year to save $3000 to replace some windows in our first house and sure we would have loved to have a big detached as our first home but we bought a semi that we could afford and still have a life.
Most common thing i see on these shows is they always have big entertaining budgets which they use the cc and credit lines for.And they feel entitled to the weekly $300 meals while having a stash of over due bills.
Gail has a where are they now section but not updated often about 50% are split up when the show go back.
Not enough people believe in working hard to get the things they want ,owing hundreds of thousands with very little assets seems to be the acceptable norm these days.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> I may be a little different here, but I actually dont see any problem with wanting stuff. It can be a great motivator.


Agreed, although for me the main disincentive to acquiring more stuff is that in most cases I have to 1) maintain it, 2) repair it, 3) find someplace to put it. When you don't have a lot of stuff, you have fewer headaches. For these reasons I have steadfastly refused to do things like buy a pool, a cottage, or a second car, even though we could very easily afford to do so. The older I get, the more I value simplicity in my life.


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## daddybigbucks (Jan 30, 2011)

marina628 said:


> Not enough people believe in working hard to get the things they want ,owing hundreds of thousands with very little assets seems to be the acceptable norm these days.


Thats the way i see it as well. There is just no shame in the world.

To me, if i had alot of debt i would feel embarrassed going into the bank and having the teller seeing my balances.

I remember going into the bank in my early 30's; When the bank agent would type up my accounts, they would almost always look suprised at the balances, then do a double look at me again. 
I always took that as, she was expecting to see alot of debt and not "pluses" for my age. So they would double check the name and then visually check my age.

And i think this is spreading as 40 is the new 30 and i think people are just riding the debt train later in life.

BTW i loved that Stanford Marshmellow experiment theory. So true.


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## Mensa (Oct 19, 2010)

Personal finance classes would be a good start. What I think would be most important though, is to create a_ desire_ for folks to learn to manage money. I don't think any amount of teaching will help if people aren't committed to getting themselves out of their respective holes.

How does such a desire get created? I don't know. 
Case in point: I had a friend come to me to ask for help with her money management. She had a feeling that all wasn't well, and wanted me to take a look. We started by looking at where her money was going - took us a few hours, and we identified some truly frightening holes and some (in my view) scary habits. 

The next step was to set a budget. She still hasn't called me back to set up a time to do that. It's been a couple of months. What she did instead, was go on a holiday.

So, she "knows" there's something wrong, but doesn't see the benefit to making a change. How do you communicate the benefits of being debt-free, or at the very least, not teetering on the edge of disaster? 

Seems like the lenders have this one figured out. Create complacency with credit. Hey - it's only 100/month and you too can live the life everyone wants!

Why, oh why?


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

kcowan said:


> There are 3 ways to make money:
> 1) Trade your time for money
> 2) Trade your money for money
> 3) Trade other people's time and money for money.
> ...


Smart people take part in all 3.



Plugging Along said:


> I may be a little different here, but I actually dont see any problem with wanting stuff. I always found it kind of odd that people would want to limit themselves in what they wanted.


I agree. Money is made to be spent. And I know not everyone believes the same way I do, but.. You only live once, and you're only getting older. Spend it.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

You all have to admit it is very hard for people eating salad while everyone else eats steak and whatever they want.

So when everyone gets what they want and you or your wife go on for years with not much I am sure it gets to your family. 

But I have found that the most memorable experiences come from having fun going to the beach, camping or going to the park at very little cost. These old time experiences need to be taught to people so they know that spending money isn't everything.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

dogcom said:


> You all have to admit it is very hard for people eating salad while everyone else eats steak and whatever they want.


Definitely not harder than me seeing neighbours with flashy cars.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

dogcom said:


> But I have found that the most memorable experiences come from having fun going to the beach, camping or going to the park at very little cost. These old time experiences need to be taught to people so they know that spending money isn't everything.


We're going to beaches, parks and camping a lot, but the most memorable experiences for our family was travelling to Spain, France and so on


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I guess the lesson here is to save for the nice things you want.We are planning a family trip to South Africa which will likely set us back about $60,000+ ,so far only about $13,500 saved for it so we have now told the kids MAYBE summer 2013.We could easily go at anytime but we also have other goals that are more important to us.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

dogcom said:


> You all have to admit it is very hard for people eating salad while everyone else eats steak and whatever they want.


But that assumes you want steak. If you're satisfied with salad then there's no problem. We live way under our means, but it's not because we're depriving ourselves; we honestly have no desire to live life any larger than we're living it now. If I won the lottery I don't think anything would change significantly; we'd pay off the rest of our mortgage, sock away some money for a comfortable retirement, and I'd cut back on my work, but we wouldn't buy a bigger house, a new car, a boat, a vacation home, hire a housekeeper or gardener, or anything like that. We're genuinely not interested in those things. 

I've definitely experienced some lifestyle inflation over the past decade, as I spent most of my life working for nonprofits and universities so I know all about self-sacrifice and scrimping. It feels good to not have to do that anymore; if we need something we buy it. But we're just not interested in most things that cost the big bucks and we like living simply.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Money is made to be spent. And I know not everyone believes the same way I do, but.. You only live once, and you're only getting older. Spend it.


Except Buffet. His only luxury is flying in a private jet so he bought the company! He always compares what an item costs with what he could earn with that money. So he drives an old Buick.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sounds like a heck of a vacation, marina!


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## Guigz (Oct 28, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> People need to stop being such babies about it.
> 
> If you cant afford it - don't buy it.
> 
> ...


Not to pick on you, but are you not doing with your weight what consumers are doing with their credit cards?

You pile caloric debt until you no longer can stand it and then you dig yourself out of the hole. Likely, the primary reason that you can dig yourself out of this hole is that you do not have to pay interest on those extra calories (in fact, quite to the contrary, the heavier you are, the easier it is to lose some weight...) . 

I believe a balanced approach might be best. With a proper exercice routine (i.e., good caloric "income") you can likely eat all that you want (within reason) and not gain weight. Heck at 190 Lbs of pure muscle, with a proper routine, you could literally eat 4000-5000 calories and still not gain any weight.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

marina628 said:


> I guess the lesson here is to save for the nice things you want.We are planning a family trip to South Africa which will likely set us back about $60,000+ ,so far only about $13,500 saved for it so we have now told the kids MAYBE summer 2013..


Our dream vacation is New Zealand  



> We could easily go at anytime but we also have other goals that are more important to us ..



Same here  , but except "other goals" it's not easy to take so long vacation (no sence to go for less than 1 month) even for kids


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Guigz said:


> Not to pick on you, but are you not doing with your weight what consummers are doing with their credit cards?
> 
> You pile caloric debt until you no longer can stand it and then you dig yourself out of the hole. Likely, the primary reason that you can dig yourself out of this hole is that you do not have to pay interest on those extra calories (in fact, quite to the contrary, the heavier you are, the easier it is to lose some weight...) .
> 
> I believe a balanced approach might be best. With a proper exercice routine (i.e., good caloric "income") you can likely eat all that you want (within reason) and not gain weight. Heck at 190 Lbs of pure muscle, with a proper routine, you could literally eat 4000-5000 calories and still not gain any weight.


I love this post. (AND I QUOTED THE WHOLE THING, Royal!)


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

With average flights 21-27 hours from Toronto to South Africa we plan to go for one month but will stop 1 week give or take a couple days in europe(Italy ) then go there for 3 weeks.We want to go from Cpe Town to Joburg.My husband went last year for World Cup and did a Safari , I was not able to make that trip with him .My kids will be 11 and 21 when we go so think we can handle it.We did three road trips in Canada over past 6 years for 2+ weeks and survived it together .
I would love to do New Zealand and Australia as well .


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Guigz said:


> Not to pick on you, but are you not doing with your weight what consumers are doing with their credit cards?


I don't see it that way. I can start eating less and working out more at any time I want. Like you said, there is no "interest charge".

In fact, I look at it more as "paying the credit card off". Going into debt would be like going over 190lbs. In which case, if I were like the rest of the world with debt, I would be 1900lbs. 

The point I was really trying to get across, though, was Self-Discipline.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I would like to someday attend a Friday night high school football game, a Saturday college game and then a Sunday NFL game somewhere in the southern US. I of course would attend the tail gate parties and everything that goes with it.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

KaeJS can't consumers also start a budget, spend less and also do better anytime they like. Sorry but I hear that comment all the time when it comes to food.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

marina628 said:


> With average flights 21-27 hours from Toronto to South Africa we plan to go for one month but will stop 1 week give or take a couple days in europe(Italy ) then go there for 3 weeks.We want to go from Cpe Town to Joburg.My husband went last year for World Cup and did a Safari , I was not able to make that trip with him .My kids will be 11 and 21 when we go so think we can handle it.We did three road trips in Canada over past 6 years for 2+ weeks and survived it together .
> I would love to do New Zealand and Australia as well .


My kids a little  younger (10 and 16 ) and personally I'd be a little scared to go South Africa with kids (myself and wife are OK, as we survived living in USSR  )....I've heard from locals that crime over there is serious issue...
In NZ and Australia on other hand we have to drive on the left side 

P.S. we went last years with kids to Spain and this year to France for about 3 weeks...had a great fun

Next year I'm planning to go Germany, Switzerland and a little bit France (Strassburg area), but now not sure as my son wants to take some high school courses in summer...
I'm very hope that we won't cancel on Easter our traditional trip to Carribean (Cayo-Coco)


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

One of the issues is that as animals we are genetically hard-wired to prefer instant gratification. Most of our ancestors who failed to "get while the getting is good" didn't survive long enough to pass on their traits of self-discipline. If you grab everything for yourself now, you will have more resources and thus be more successful at leaving behind surviving offspring who then perpetuate the traits they've inherited from you.

This natural propensity for favouring short-term gains even if they have longer-term costs helps explain phenomena like smoking, for example, where people get immediate enjoyment and other benefits from taking up the habit, while the fatal effects generally don't appear for years afterward. It also helps explain debt and obesity, where people impulsively over-spend or over-eat even when they know they will regret it later on. 

It's easy to say "I'm in control" and "I can stop this whenever I want," but the key is that you have to want to stop more than you want to keep going. To start the process of getting out of debt, you have to reach a point where it's truly more important to you to get out of debt than it is to plunk down your credit card for one more unnecessary but fun purchase. I think once you get to that point it's relatively easy because your motivation has shifted. But actually getting to that point itself is hard and some people never get there.

I just had a family reunion on the Outer Banks of North Carolina (a few days before Hurricane Irene hit in fact), and my oldest brother kept complaining that he was overweight and needed to do something about it. But he just kept overeating all the time we were there -- until the last day when we sat around looking at the photos we'd taken on the beach. That's all he needed to make himself want to lose weight more than he wanted to drink his daily Starbuck's chai latte or eat a second hamburger. 

Maybe it's all about tipping points and how to reach them.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I have several clients located in South Africa , they come over here once a year to a conference we plan for them and after being there my husband said there are bad areas in Johannesburg but the locals know to avoid them.Our friend left his laptop on in his house and went to bed , somebody seen it from the street i guess and came in and stole it in middle of the night.
But the beauty of South Africa makes up for that.We have been in North Africa right in Tunisia where they had the riots this year but I still think it is one of the nicest places we have visited.We have done so much traveling in past 4 years , France (3x) UK(3X) Malta , Portugal ,Spain(2x) Germany ,Italy, FEW TRIPS TO USA and a couple Caribbean cruises.
If I had to pick one of them it would be France ,Ile De ray/La Rochelle is our favorite spot ,we were lucky to spend some time there in 2009 and really enjoyed the life style there.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

marina628 said:


> I have several clients located in South Africa , they come over here once a year to a conference we plan for them and after being there my husband said there are bad areas in Johannesburg but the locals know to avoid them.......If I had to pick one of them it would be France ,Ile De ray/La Rochelle is our favorite spot ,we were lucky to spend some time there in 2009 and really enjoyed the life style there.


I just worked with guy who studied there and he was telling that after aparteid ended, the situation became much worse...

We also enjoy very much France...we travel Paris-> Loire Valley -> Brittany -> Normandy -> Picardy...

Another trip we really like was Czech Republic....rented car in Frankfurt and 2 weeks were driving over


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Smart people take part in all 3.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Money is made to be spent. And I know not everyone believes the same way I do, but.. You only live once, and you're only getting older. Spend it.


Except when you are James Bond..then "you only live twice." (movie title)

The reason CC issuers are getting richer and richer, is because of easy access
to credit and the fact that most people accept the fact that they can pay
off their credit debts in minimum installments...so they have more money
available to spend on other things. Affinity CC may be another reason.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I'm a frequent traveller myself but I would never book a vacation that I didn't have the cash for on hand to cover the costs... including the spending cash when I get where I am going. I want to do a Europe trip but it's hard for me to get a big enough block of time off of work to really make it happen...

Some of the folks I travel with charge their trips which I'm sure makes the deals we get less of a bargain for them in the end.

For me I have a good quality ..I can't stand shopping which keeps me away from spending money since I'm rarely in a store unless it's for something specific. I also grew up slightly poorer (never went without just not too many extras) than most of my friends so I'm just used to not trying to keep up with other peoples lifestyles eventhough now I could easily afford it I just don't have the desire.


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## workingpoor (Sep 26, 2011)

Sure, financial education in high school would be great, if they actually taught anything realistic.

Curriculum that I see seems to take random numbers based on jobs people think they will get down the road, don't teach about cost of living and the associated inflation or even how much utilities would cost! 

A lot of young adults, especially when they want to move out for the first time, have a very unrealistic view of how hard it is to stick to a budget, or even how to do a proper budget based on their actual bills and spending habits vs income.

But, as I am not a formalized teacher, nor an expert on finances, who am I to say things should be taught differently?


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

dogcom said:


> I would like to someday attend a Friday night high school football game, a Saturday college game and then a Sunday NFL game somewhere in the southern US. I of course would attend the tail gate parties and everything that goes with it.


I have a buddy who does this every year or two. If you look at the schedule, you can usually squeeze in a Monday Night Game too where the teams are close - think CA, FL and the Northeast.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Thanks maybe later that could be the best plan of all. I plan to do this in a couple of years once I get through my house reno which I am doing a lot of the work myself so it takes much longer. This also reminds me that Canadians need to take more time and do their reno more slowly instead of paying through the nose to get what they want now.

The only reno a person should do right away is if there is a water issue or something that can cost you a great deal more if you wait.


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