# How to get laid off instead of quitting?



## lifeliver (Aug 30, 2010)

I am contemplating a possible career change in the next year or two and I want know about how I can get laid off instead of quitting. I have been with my current employer for 6 years and want to make sure that I would recieve my severence pay and also get EI after I leave. 

Is this something that can be negotiated with management or HR? Anyone have experience with this sort of thing?


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Employers seldom negotiate with departing employees to indicate a layoff on the Record of Employment when the employee has voluntarily quit. They would be lying on a government form. 

It is also unlikely that you would be able to convince an employer to give you severance pay when you quit. 

Talk to an employment lawyer before doing anything rash. You may find yourself in the wrong side of Service Canada and on the wrong side of the law.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

lifeliver said:


> I am contemplating a possible career change in the next year or two and I want know about how I can get laid off instead of quitting. I have been with my current employer for 6 years and want to make sure that I would recieve my severence pay and also get EI after I leave.
> 
> Is this something that can be negotiated with management or HR? Anyone have experience with this sort of thing?


If the company was reducing staff or asking older employees to take early retirement, you could volunteer. 

I knew a guy once who was one of the best welders in the country. Worked on nuclear reactors for example. But his idea of life was to work for 6 or 8 months at a time, then collect pogey. If they wouldn't let him go, he would pick a fight with his foreman! I wouldn't suggest that!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We had it happen on several occasions at GM, where junior employees were scheduled for temporary layoffs and a senior employee wanted the time off, so they swapped places. There was paperwork required and the layoff had to be a temporary layoff with a call back date............for example a 6 month layoff. 

The company cannot hire a replacement employee to replace the laid off employee.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Whoops..I only read the first few words of the header.."How to get laid..":biggrin:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

That would be easy. ............dial...........1-800-Hot-Date.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

At own company one middle managers wanted to get laid off , exactly same time, several other guys at similar positions were laid off..... the first guy had discussion with CEO if he can get laid off and he got answer that this is unethical, so he just quit ....

On the other hand, one gurl got laid off  ... after our company got sold to Indian one, this gurl was constantly writing letters to Ministry of Labour and other organisation.... In those letters she was writing that Canadian employees getting laid off and instead new management brings here foreign Indian workers, that Chinese manager laying off white guys and bringing his Chinese friends and so on... After some time she got quietly laid off...

imho, the easiest way for you to get laid off is to do crappy job (I've read some lawyer article on globeinvestor who said that it's practically impossible to fire employee "with cause" for bad performance) , take a lot of sick days ... it will take time , but at some point they may lay you off


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## lifeliver (Aug 30, 2010)

I was thinking about the bad performance route but the issue is that I work on base + commission. So if I am not performing, I am getting paid peanuts and its a waste of time to be there. Also I have been a top performer for the last 5 years so it would take a while to get let go off that way. 

I would have close to 30k in severence pay. I dont want to give that up.


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## stantistic (Sep 19, 2015)

Made the same mistake. Is this the correct thread for dirty old men?


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> At own company one middle managers wanted to get laid off , exactly same time, several other guys at similar positions were laid off..... the first guy had discussion with CEO if he can get laid off and he got answer that this is unethical, so he just quit ....
> 
> On the other hand, one gurl got laid off  ... after our company got sold to Indian one, this gurl was constantly writing letters to Ministry of Labour and other organisation.... In those letters she was writing that Canadian employees getting laid off and instead new management brings here foreign Indian workers, that Chinese manager laying off white guys and bringing his Chinese friends and so on... After some time she got quietly laid off...
> 
> imho, the easiest way for you to get laid off is to do crappy job (I've read some lawyer article on globeinvestor who said that it's practically impossible to fire employee "with cause" for bad performance) , take a lot of sick days ... it will take time , but at some point they may lay you off


What is a "gurl"?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

heyjude said:


> What is a "gurl"?


girl :biggrin:



> Made the same mistake.


 Which one?!



> Also I have been a top performer for the last 5 years so it would take a while to get let go off that way.


 Than only really "bad health" can help you :biggrin:
You may try some "small misconduct' , and maybe company will decide to laid you off instread of firing for clause


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## bds (Aug 13, 2013)

A friend of mine did this successfully. He was with a very small, old company that wasn't expanding. He was friends with his boss (the owner) and just said quite frankly that he wants time off and would like to be laid off. He offered to leave whenever was convenient for his boss and they worked out a date about a month from that conversation.

It is possible, but I doubt it's "legal", and probably rare that the stars aligned for him:
-No HR due to company size
-Close with boss
-Company didn't want to grow, so no need to back fill his role.


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## StayThirstyMyFriends (Jul 29, 2016)

lifeliver said:


> I would have close to 30k in severence pay. I dont want to give that up.


I don't want to be a wet blanket but depending on who your employer is, they may have a very different view on this than you do. 

You may find this kind of article interesting - severance is not an entitlement - you (a) need to look for work, and (b) not find work, to be eligible to receive it.

http://www.hrreporter.com/columnist...e/2013/11/18/severance-pay-not-an-entitlement

Obviously if you have a defined severance entitlement in your contract, that trumps this...  but severance does appear to be an often misunderstood concept.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> You may find this kind of article interesting - severance is not an entitlement - you (a) need to look for work, and (b) not find work, to be eligible to receive it.


 I know many people who got laid off and got severance + termination pay who found new job right away...


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> I know many people who got laid off and got severance + termination pay who found new job right away...


Those people probably received statutory severance pay (pay that is required by statute). It is the minimum required by law. 

The OP said 30K after 6 years. He is probably referring to a more generous common law severance package. The package is typically reduced if the recipient finds work.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

A friend of mine wants to retire early. He has asked his employer to fire him. He's already been to unemployment to see what he can get if he gets fired or laid off and that way he will have some extra income. Happens all the time.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Whether it happens frequently or not, it is still unethical/fraudulent.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The employer would have to be willing to pay severance pay in a termination.

The employer would not be able to replace the employee in a layoff.

I don't see an upside for the employer.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

In principle severance pay is to ease the pain of being laid off, and to help tide you over until you find other work. It's not a bonus to which you are still entitled if you voluntarily quit one job and immediately start another.

Presumably you want your current employer to give you a good recommendation. Do you think you are going to get it if you try this scheme?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Presumably you want your current employer to give you a good recommendation. Do you think you are going to get it if you try this scheme?


 If somebody wants to retire early , he/she doesn't give a **** about recommendations


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Whether it happens frequently or not, it is still unethical/fraudulent.


and is it ethical if you perform your job and employer doesn't give you any raise for many years?! Thus your salary going down together with inflation every year....


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sure. You are free to seek other employment. Most employers don't behave this way, anyway.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Sure. You are free to seek other employment. Most employers don't behave this way, anyway.


And you are free to work as per incentive you get  and employer free to hire another employee , or outsource your position and give you severance pay


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Indeed they are.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I have seen it done only in cases where the company is going though layoffs anyways. I know people who volunteered for a layoff. The managers had gone through with it in these cases be causes they already had a tough decision of having to choose someone to be laid off, and would be paying someone severance anyways. 

Making a mistake or poor performance could be a risk if the company doesn't want to pay severance, as you can be let go with cause, not get severance or ei, and a poor reference.

If you are looking for a severance because you want to get out and do something different, then thing if severance as a bonus, not an entitlement.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I have seen it done only in cases where the company is going though layoffs anyways. I know people who volunteered for a layoff. The managers had gone through with it in these cases be causes they already had a tough decision of having to choose someone to be laid off, and would be paying someone severance anyways.


True ... though some multinationals don't like doing this as they discovered that those volunteering where the productive ones that knew they could find another job. Those staying were less productive.

I'm not sure if the company is big enough and has the HR resources to have noticed this. IAC, as the aim is early retirement - I'm not sure the OP cares either.


Cheers


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Making a mistake or poor performance could be a risk if the company doesn't want to pay severance, as you can be let go with cause, not get severance or ei, and a poor reference.


 I read some time ago with very popular lawyer in globe and mail who said that " poor performance" practically impossible to prove (moreover "mistake") in order to fire with cause... for company is better to pay severance than go to the court and prove " poor performance"


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I have seen it done only in cases where the company is going though layoffs anyways.


 some companies just playing games..... some time ago our company was sold to Indian company.... we were given contact from the new company and were forced to sign ASAP , we were promised that nothing is gonna change... 99% just signed and didn't pay attention to a small cause that was saying something like "company can lay off anyone and pay severance/termination only as per province law" ... so just a few people didn't accept this offer and got 4 week per working year severance/termination pay... later , during first year, almost half of the company got laid off (just replaced by foreign workers) and got much less severance/termination per year (close to Ontario standards)...
Also new company promised leave all benefits as it is ... however, benefits became worse and worse ... 10 paid sick days were cancelled, medical benefits became much worse, they also introduced employee contribution for medical benefits etc.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> I read some time ago with very popular lawyer in globe and mail who said that " poor performance" practically impossible to prove (moreover "mistake") in order to fire with cause... for company is better to pay severance than go to the court and prove " poor performance"


Free legal advice is worth every penny. Nothing automatically goes to court. Somebody has to sue first. That takes time and money.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I don't see that the Op is going through restructuring or anything. He wants to personally change careers, and get severance for his choice.

I think the expectation should be that one is not entitlement to severance or ei, if they are making the choice to leave for their own reasons. That's not what it is for. An employee may try and negotiate this, but I have only seen it where there was some benefit to the company. Why in the world would an employer choose to pay severance because someone wanted to quit, and the employers didn't plan this.

I have known a couple people get their employers to lay them off, but with no severance. This allowed them to get EI, but instead of severance they were given working notice. The company was no worse off though.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I have seen companies fire with cause for poor performance, and the employee sued, and lost. I think free general law advice in a newspaper is silly to take without looking at the specifics.

I do agree in general, it was much easier to lay someone off than to fire the


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

olivaw said:


> Free legal advice is worth every penny. Nothing automatically goes to court. Somebody has to sue first. That takes time and money.


True enuff olivaw. The people who sue for damages for wrongful dismissal are, for the most part, executive types earning significant incomes, who have been fired without cause after many years of service, who hope to be found entitled to damages in lieu of notice, with a notice period set toward the high end of the rough upper limit of 24 months generally awarded. In a case like that, it can be worth it to proceed in a superior court.

For someone punted from a $50,000-a-year job after just a few years of service, it won't be worth incurring legal fees in the order of $400 an hour, and no lawyer will take on such a matter on a contingency fee basis. Besides, any damages in such case are likely to be within the monetary jurisdiction of the Small Claims Court. So, even if an employer in such case is unsure of whether cause for dismissal exists, that employer can fire the employee without notice or pay in lieu and wait to see if a writ gets issued. If it does, one can then decide to settle or take one's chances in court. Here in BC the Provincial Court limit is $25,000 and no legal costs (apart from disbursements for issuing process, etc.) can be awarded. So a fired employee with a bit of pluck can act as his/her own counsel and have a go at it. The worst that can happen is being out of pocket a few hundred bucks for costs. 

It is also the case that in BC (and probably most other Canadian jurisdictions) the disappointed employee can file a complaint with the Employment Standards Branch or similar tribunal and ask for statutory severance. No real downside risk in trying that one on.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We had layoffs scheduled many times, and high seniority employees were allowed to accept the layoff instead of junior seniority employees.

But in each case, the EI pre-approved of the arrangement. And in each case the layoffs had to be temporary with a defined "call back" date.

EI wanted to ensure that the benefits they would be paying out would be the same. 

At our factory everyone would receive the same maximum EI benefit, so it wasn't an issue.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> For someone punted from a $50,000-a-year job after just a few years of service, it won't be worth incurring legal fees


 obviously...considering that employee eligible for severance only after 5 years of service


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Preb_B said:


> Fairly easy - keep pissing off your boss.. Ask if he wants coffee, pour salt in instead of sugar. Meet drunk at work. Sleep with your boss' wife. Meet up wearing nothing but underpants. There are plenty of stuff to do if you want to get laid off......


It is hard to get fired with cause. This sounds like good advice on how to do so (and get no EI/severence).


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Preb_B said:


> Fairly easy - keep pissing off your boss.. Ask if he wants coffee, pour salt in instead of sugar. Meet drunk at work. Sleep with your boss' wife. Meet up wearing nothing but underpants. There are plenty of stuff to do if you want to get laid off......


That approach, Preb, is likely to get you dismissed for cause, not laid off.


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## amitdi (May 31, 2012)

heyjude said:


> What is a "gurl"?


a gurl is Arya Stark of Winterfell...


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## amitdi (May 31, 2012)

lifeliver said:


> I would have close to 30k in severence pay. I dont want to give that up.


what do you mean by "give up"? if you lose something that you are entitled to or own, thats "giving up".

this is like saying i dont want to give up on my insurance money or something like that. its for a cause, "if" the cause happens. if you try to make the "cause" happen, well then you are conspiring.


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