# Microwave ovens and reliability of the newer brands made today



## carverman

Now, this is a subject that affects everyone out there..is there anyone who doesn't own a microwave these days?

My Danby 1000 watt /1.0 cu ft oven (bought in April 1995 ,after I got kicked out of the marital home)
...<sniff!> has probably bit the biscuit as they say.
I rely on this microwave every day to heat everything including cold cat food from the fridge and I use it a LOT! 
This morning after warming up some cat food, I wanted to warm up a cup o' java and to my surprise..
....the keypad digits 0-9 didn't work any more.

All all the other functions still work and popcorn selection heat is coming off the magnetron, 
so the key component of most microwaves..the magnetron and it's power supply is still working.

However, the soft touch membrane type of keypad is silent..no beep....no digit function appearing on the display to
set the cooking time or set the clock. I unplugged it out of the wall to give it a power reset, but still no joy.

After almost 20 years of service (April 1995 to August 17, 2014, it is telling me that I should be looking at a new one because
nobody here in Canada fixes these things after they go off warranty..and after 20 years, it is highly unlikely I would be able
to find another keypad for it, never mind figuring out how to install it.
I look at at 3 of the online stores; CTC, H-D and Walmart to find a replacement for it at affordable prices.
*Sears is just waaay too expensive!..no wonder they are having financial issues*.

So far the reviews on the cheaper brands, including a GE branded one, indicated mixed reviews and 3 stars out of 5 for most, some even less..and comments such as "junk';..failed after 3 days, and "won't stop turning or shut off after finished warming-have to unplug it from the wall" etc..
...reinforcing the "old school" saying.. "They just don't make them like they used to."

These are all made in China..now I suppose if you are willing to spend $300 or more on one and get a name brand, you may get more satisfaction or longevity out of these things...but really..with a 18 month warranty on some, you
would think they should last a bit more than 18 month!

*So now, I'm thinking of getting another Danby 1 cuft at Walmart online for $104 (free shipping too) and take my chances...
any recent experiences with microwaves out there? *


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## Ponderling

We go through a fair number of them where I work. We always try to buy Panasonic. Our experience is that these last at least 2 years for us.

Don't freak out - we use them hard. One of our lunch rooms uses three of them ,and they run pretty much continuously for 50 minutes, plus intermittent duty for morning and afternoon coffee breaks.
They die and I hi-grade the dead units.

About 50% of the failures is for a melted supply fuse. 5 minute $1 fix. 
About 25% of the failures is for a faulty door switch. Most microwaves have three. Our hard service sees likely 10 years of domestic use door opening closing cycles in the two years we typically see them work before failure here.

I keep the door switches and fuses from the other 25% that fail due to a bad magnetron or HV supply, or crapped out logic board, that we judge are beyond the effort to fix.

My most recent microwave failure at home was from a HV transformer that developed a short after 6 years of use. Fortunately we have a second microwave in the basement that I use in my darkroom and soap making hobbies. It was sourced from an estate auction for I think $20. 

The house went back to having a second microwave when I sourced one at a church garage sale fro $20. It looks to be from the mid 80's, and has worked fine for us for the last year we have had it in service.

I would suggest a scour of value Villages and other thrifts might be a better deal than buying something new.
New are warranted to last until mere months past the expiry of replacement coverage as far as I am concerned.


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## Nemo2

A year or so back we picked up a cheap 'as new' microwave on _kijiji_......there are always people updating/moving/splitting up/dying, etc.


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## brad

Ours is Panasonic; we've had it since 2004 and have had no problems so far.


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## 6811

Like Brad and Ponderling I too have a Panasonic.. bought two more for the kids from WallMart probably five years ago. 

Really like and use the 'reheat' function that takes the guess work out of reheating leftovers.


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## carverman

Ponderling said:


> We go through a fair number of them where I work. We always try to buy Panasonic. Our experience is that these last at least 2 years for us.


Waaa!! Only 2 years? No wonder the Chinese are laughing all the way to the banks! 
They build shoddy goods that have to be replaced every two years..more money for them, more money for the importers..... and more money for the retail stores. 



> About 50% of the failures is for a melted supply fuse. 5 minute $1 fix.
> About 25% of the failures is for a faulty door switch. Most microwaves have three. Our hard service sees likely 10 years of domestic use door opening closing cycles in the two years we typically see them work before failure here.


I haven't had a melted fuse yet..that probably is another Chinese made component..that fails if the magetron takes just a little more AC current on the cold start initially.
As far as the faulty door switches, haven't had that problem either, but my door open button sticks sometimes and it wont start until I fiddle with it. Cleaned it last month with Windex and it worked good..up till now.

My Danby microwave was made in Korea in August 1994, in a place called Kwang-ju. Probably another reason it has lasted for 20 YEARS!


> I keep the door switches and fuses from the other 25% that fail due to a bad magnetron or HV supply, or crapped out logic board, that we judge are beyond the effort to fix.
> 
> My most recent microwave failure at home was from a HV transformer that developed a short after 6 years of use. Fortunately we have a second microwave in the basement that I use in my darkroom and soap making hobbies. It was sourced from an estate auction for I think $20.
> 
> The house went back to having a second microwave when I sourced one at a church garage sale fro $20. It looks to be from the mid 80's, and has worked fine for us for the last year we have had it in service.
> 
> I would suggest a scour of value Villages and other thrifts might be a better deal than buying something new.
> New are warranted to last until mere months past the expiry of replacement coverage as far as I am concerned.


I am disabled now..can't go running off to Value Village or that place called X-Cargo, that sells refurbished units
for cheap..$20 or so..most if not all of their TVs, microwaves and electronics are "refurbished".

What does that mean? It was a return at one time, that was sent back to fixed under warranty and then
couldn't be sold as new stock in the same store that sold it as new stock..so these places like X-cargo pick
them up at below the original cost and in most cases below the cost of the actual repair.
I would not trust these though..but as they say..YMMV (Your Mileage May vary).:biggrin:


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## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> A year or so back we picked up a cheap 'as new' microwave on _kijiji_......there are always people updating/moving/*splitting up/dying*, etc.


LOL!..especially the last two reasons.

"Kijji: For sale, Microwave oven..the wife decided to get another "newer model" , so I'm left hold the bag and disposing of the microwave.:sneakiness:

OR

"Kijji" For sale..all the appliances at $20 each..she left me for another..I'll fix her!..wait until the lawyers find out that I disposed of all the furniture and had a good time from the money I collected..look for her silverware and dishes going cheap too....under ...:biggrin:


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## Nemo2

^ The one we picked up, also a _Panasonic_, they'd recently purchased, and then moved into a new house with a built-in.


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## carverman

brad said:


> Ours is Panasonic; we've had it since 2004 and have had no problems so far.


Good thing you bought it in 2004 Brad. It seems that the newer Panasonic models are not meant to last 10 years anymore.
I looked at Panasonic on CTC online..not very good reviews on their newest models..here is a copy of one review on a Panasonic microwave:



> After reading the reviews , I see that several people have experienced a total failure of this product after about a year's use.I'm sorry to say that I am now among them.
> 
> *If you see a"code H98" on your timer display,it means that your Panasonic has just turned into 25 lbs of junk. The Magnetron ( element that generates the microwaves) has failed. In that case , it's just cheaper to buy a new one.
> Years ago this brand stood for quality and reliability. How times have changed.*
> 
> These days, one manufacturer will produce the same product for several different companies. The only difference is the brand name that's affixed to the appliance,so changing brands is probably not going to help. No matter which one you buy ,* 25 % will fail after one year*.
> Good luck to all!"


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## cainvest

Yup, the newer microwaves are really low quality now ... panasonic, danby, etc.
I just replaced an older panasonic, which did last quite a while, with a new panasonic. First thing to check is the door mechanism, makes sure it works properly with no excessive force to close or when you use the open button. Many have complained about this and I have seen the problem on the display models.

For the cost it's just a replacement item now, wait for the one you want to go on sale and buy it. Normally you can get the ok level models for $80-90, maybe a little cheaper if you go "unbranded" like Danby, etc.


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## andrewf

Honestly, I haven't had too many problems with microwaves. My work used to get consumer grade units until a couple years ago when they splurged on commercial units (benefit of higher power output and faster reheating).

When considering microwave prices, keep in mind that the horribly expensive $300 microwave today is probably similar in price to what you paid in 1994 for the Danby.


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## 6811

When I bought my Panasonic some years ago it was rated as a best buy from Consumer Magazine.

The Sweethome website currently rates a GE model as Best Microwave..

http://thesweethome.com/reviews/best-microwave/


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> H.
> 
> When considering microwave prices, keep in mind that the horribly expensive $300 microwave today is probably similar in price to what you paid in 1994 for the Danby.


I don't believe I paid $300 for it..maybe $199 at Future Shop?
It was a l-o-on-g time ago, and I didn't keep the receipt past the 1 year warranty period.


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## carverman

*Well "Wonder of Wonders, Miracles of Miracles.*.
God took Carver by the hand.."

and told him.."you are a former Nortel systems troubleshooter..are you going to let a simple thing like a microwave defeat you?"

But I replied , "God that was a l-o-n-g time ago..and I'm afraid I've "lost it!.

"Nonsense" he whispered in my head..take it apart and have a look see..can't hurt..since you are determind to scrap it at this point."

So I says to me self...You know God..you are ALWAYs right! 
Ok, let me get my phillips screwdriver and try to take it apart.

<Carver wrestles with the large metal top, and opens up the guts to have a look see...
<Now folks..I did mention it was ONLY the 0-9 keypad function for programming the time and cooking minutes that wasn't working>

How does the front display panel and key pad come off?..oh there are these hidden screws..(after soul searching..I find them , then unplug this little plug and this little plug and what is this..ah..a flexible pc connection between the key pad and the microprocessor board..

ok..one last grounding screw to remove..and voila..off it comes..out comes the display and keypad intact...

Hmmm? This thin plastic flex circuit plugs into this printed circuit receiver plug..what it I unplug it and clean these barely visible contacts with a Qtip soaked in Isopropyl alcohol, and carefully stick it back in the receiver connector...
<reverse assembly follows?
Plug it in with baited breath...

and

Display turns on.that's a good sign.
Now hit "clock" set and press the digitals corresponding to the real time..(it didn't work before I took it apart)

Voila! I can set the time! Put in a cup of cold java to heat up...press cooking time and voila the turntable is turning and the oven light is
on.
Just saved myself at least $140!

Now the big question with this miracle..will my repair last another 20 years? I probably wont' though, but imagine if it did last until 2034~
It would be 40 years old by then..and I would be 88!


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## carverman

6811 said:


> When I bought my Panasonic some years ago it was rated as a best buy from Consumer Magazine.
> 
> The Sweethome website currently rates a GE model as Best Microwave..
> 
> http://thesweethome.com/reviews/best-microwave/


I guess the ones they tested were not made on a Monday or a Friday in China.
here are some reviews on Panasonic microwaves..


> "I bought this microwave last week after mine quit working. It is very cheap construction. It has a very odd cheap sounding beep when you push the buttons. It had an odd smell whenever in operation. *Last night it quit working after reheating food for less then 4min. It flashed a code that stated it needs to be returned to the local Panasonic retaile*r. Will NOT be getting another one of these. I will be exchanging it for a completely different microwave."



The reviews on at least one GE model



> July 15, 2013
> "Bought this microwave and it *worked fine up until 2 months after the warranty ended (1yr). *Now it works randomly"



LOL!..now they are programming them.." We are Chinese..return to Panasonic dealer ..if you please":biggrin:


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## brad

carverman said:


> I don't believe I paid $300 for it..maybe $199 at Future Shop?
> It was a l-o-on-g time ago, and I didn't keep the receipt past the 1 year warranty period.


I think andrewf is referring to the inflation factor. $200 in 1994 is about $320 today.


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## brad

carverman said:


> I guess the ones they tested were not made on a Monday or a Friday in China.
> here are some reviews on Panasonic microwaves..


Keep in mind that legitimate user reviews are written mainly by two types of people: 1) really satisfied users who love the product, 2) really dissatisfied users who hate the product. The vast majority of people who buy products don't write reviews, so all you're seeing are two tails of the bell curve.

If you want a microwave not made in china, check out Dacor (made in USA): http://www.dacor.com/Our-Products/Microwaves/Distinctive-24-Inch-Microwave.aspx

And you'll pay made-in-USA prices -- about $600.


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## Ponderling

Good on you for the fix effort. I used to isopropyl wash fix the remote for the TV that way all the time. 

Oils from skin, popcorm or chips residue would screw up the contacts or capacitance affect on the channel up or down buttons.


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## andrewf

It's situations like this that make me wish that items like microwaves that have pretty much been perfected were to be somewhat standardized, so that it would be more straightforward to repair them. I mean, is it really necessary to iterate models every 6 months?


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## dotnet_nerd

carverman said:


> ...My Danby 1000 watt /1.0 cu ft oven bit the biscuit as they say....


I'll never buy Danby again. My wine cooler quit very shortly after the 2 year warranty expired.


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## carverman

Ponderling said:


> Good on you for the fix effort. I used to isopropyl wash fix the remote for the TV that way all the time.
> 
> Oils from skin, popcorm or chips residue would screw up the contacts or capacitance affect on the channel up or down buttons.


I've used the "miracle worker" MG Chemicals contact spray on controls, audio pots, etc for years, but for printed circuit contacts Isopropyl alcohol is still the best to clean off any residue on these very thin contacts. 

I guess after 20 years of heating stuff up, the grease or moisture from the cooking gets into the contacts , but who knows?...it could have just been some corrosion too.

These flexible plastic circuit traces don't take much to upset the continuity..in this case, probably one of the 5 tracks that made the 0-9 digits on the keypad. Logically 0-7 (octal) requires 3 printed traces and a ground. 0-9 would require 4 traces + ground, but again this is hexadecimal binary. O to F. 
I really don't know how the keypad was wired, but it works now and that's all I want.


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> It's situations like this that make me wish that items like microwaves that have pretty much been perfected were to be somewhat standardized, so that it would be more straightforward to repair them. I mean, is it really necessary to iterate models every 6 months?


Yes they should all be just standardized. Most of the problems ARE the door switches...or the high voltage power supply for the magnetron..usually the high voltage tripler or quadrupler diode. Sometimes its a blown fuse, occasionally its the control board itself. Yes, you are right, they can't do much to improve these if they already come with a turntable and a light...but..
I noticed today at CTC that the new Panasonic models boast an "Inverter" technology , where they claim it is actually cooking food rather than bzzzt..10 seconds...turntable moving...another buzzzt.and so on.
Nothing new..but imagine a microwave that actually cooks your food rather than just defrosting it..what a concept! :biggrin:

for those wanting to have a go at it to try your hand at troubleshooting..check out the link below for a step by step troubleshooting method.
*WARNING LETHAL VOLTAGES *can* EXIST ON THE MAGNETRON STORAGE CAPACITOR INSIDE.*
*Make sure you discharge it to ground first!* otherwise..ZAPPPPPPP!! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1tdj3OnlXU


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## andrewf

The link 6811 provided from thesweethome.com was a very in-depth test of microwaves and features, and apparently inverter microwaves are indeed superior.


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## cainvest

Panasonic's "Inverter" has been around for quite a while now and guess what, works just like a regular turntable microwave. 
Their 1200 watt versions do heat/cook faster than most others makers in the same price range which usually run 800-1000 watts, saves a whole 10 seconds when heating up a coffee!


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## MrMatt

cainvest said:


> Panasonic's "Inverter" has been around for quite a while now and guess what, works just like a regular turntable microwave.
> Their 1200 watt versions do heat/cook faster than most others makers in the same price range which usually run 800-1000 watts, saves a whole 10 seconds when heating up a coffee!


I use my microwave a lot, not as much as a coffee maker, but at least 8 times a day (kids...)
The Panasonic inverters are cheap, have lots of power and they hold up for a few years, todays price of $120 for the mid-size at walmart is pretty decent.


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> The link 6811 provided from thesweethome.com was a very in-depth test of microwaves and features, and apparently inverter microwaves are indeed superior.


No doubt..but.... how reliable are they?

From what I understand, at least so far on this inverter technolgy used by some microwave
ovens is that it employs the PWM (pulse wave modulation) principle. Here is what Pansonic says about theirs:



> Inverter Technology
> Panasonic uses proprietary Inverter technology in most of its microwave ovens.
> Difference Between Traditional and Inverter Microwave Ovens
> *Traditional microwave ovens*
> Conventional microwaves ovens use power transformers to increase the household line voltage (120 VAC at 60 Hz) to a level high enough to operate the magnetron. The magnetron generates the microwaves that cook the food.
> This technique has its drawbacks.
> *Operating at a low frequency of 60 Hz, the transformer is relatively inefficient: *
> 
> *• Power is lost (through heat dissipation) in converting the line voltage to the
> higher magnetron level. *
> 
> *• The transformer operates at a constant power (cooking level) that can only
> be changed by switching the power on or off repeatedly. *
> 
> 
> *Inverter Technology*
> ==================
> In inverter-equipped microwave ovens, *the power transformer is replaced by a circuit board,
> which converts the 60Hz incoming line frequency to a variable rate of 20 KHz to 45 KHz. *
> 
> A relatively small transformer is then required to increase the voltage to the level required by a magnetron.
> By varying the pulse width, the output power can be linearly controlled for more precise cooking and defrosting levels.
> 
> The *bulky power transformer is replaced by a small, lightweight circuit board;* and, because less heat is dissipated, power
> efficiency is increased.
> 
> 
> *Conventional technology uses just a single power level*, which is regulated by switching pulses.
> 
> In contrast,* inverter technology directly controls the power outpu*t.
> 
> *This constant soft penetration of microwave energy prevents the common
> problems of shrinkage, overcooking, and loss of nutrients. The result is even food
> temperature and textures throughout.*



Ok, this is nothing new..inverters, or switching power supplies as they are sometimes called, have been around for at least 50 years or more for regulating power supplies in electronic equipment. 

All flat screen TVs have eliminated that bulky iron core power transformer 
and gone to toroidal coil switching supplies which takes the 60hz AC line voltage and chops it up at a PWM rate of 20khz or higher. The reason those frequencies are chosen is because it is beyond he audible hearing range of humans..but not dogs of course.

The Pulse width modulation is a fancy oscillator that operates in a variable frequency/duty cycle pulse mode and has many many uses and comes in many variations..if you want to read more about the PWM and its applications ..Wiki has a good explanation;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

and of course..*the Panasonic technical service manual explanation of their version*:

Where they show a schematic of the circuit and the special device used called a IGBT (Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor) in the modulator circuit which is controlled by the DPC (Digital Programmer Circuit)...
http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/Inverter.pdf

..all this technology just to heat up a cup o' Java. :biggrin: 
How did we ever manage to live before with microwave ovens,personal computers and iphones...and plastic money of course?


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## carverman

cainvest said:


> Their 1200 watt versions do heat/cook faster than most others makers in the same price range which usually run 800-1000 watts, *saves a whole 10 seconds when heating up a coffee!*


I didn't think that your modern generation dudes still heated up coffee in a microwave..isn't that "old school"?..
Don't you just jump out of bed, run a comb through your head, jump in the car,
and get in line behind all the others waiting for their morning "Java fix" at the Tim Horton's drive-in window?:biggrin:

Make mine a "double double" please!

Reminds me of a Beatles song.."Day in the Life"..



> "Woke up, fell out of bed
> Dragged a comb across my head
> Found my way downstairs and drank a cup
> And looking up I noticed I was late
> Found my coat and grabbed my hat
> Made the bus in seconds flat"


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## andrewf

What's wrong with brewing fresh coffee? Reheated stale coffee is no way to live. I would rather drink instant.


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> What's wrong with brewing fresh coffee? Reheated stale coffee is no way to live. I would rather drink instant.


I brew mine in a coffee maker first thing in the morning, have my first cup, then go do something..the other cup sits in the coffee maker until the warmer plate on it times out and the coffee while still drinkable is cold..especially when you pour some flavoured whitener in it.

(I like the hazelnut vanilla variety whitener) It's just a tad too cool to drink..but still drinkable after an hour or so. 

Microwaves are great for reheating that..and at $12-$13 a kilo for "Pride of Arabia" or "8 O"Clock" whole coffee beans, we pensioners can't afford to waste it or throw it out. Like one of the old coffee commercials used to instil on us.."It's good to the last drop!"

I hate instant. But I have a small jar of Taster's Choice for emergencies..and I still have to heat the cup of water in the microwave.
I don't use a kettle..they draw way too much power to boil water and produce 1 cup of coffee.

I refuse to pay the steep prices for the Keurig per cup maker , or the other one..the Tassimo... but today the younger generation has
no time to brew their coffee in the morning and enjoy before leaving for work. 

They either make a quick cup with the per cup brewing system (very expensive) or rush off to Timmies and line up for that "double-double" and a muffin of the day..or a cruller.

Gotta get that sugar rush!:biggrin:


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## off.by.10

carverman said:


> I noticed today at CTC that the new Panasonic models boast an "Inverter" technology , where they claim it is actually cooking food rather than bzzzt..10 seconds...turntable moving...another buzzzt.and so on.
> Nothing new..but imagine a microwave that actually cooks your food rather than just defrosting it..what a concept! :biggrin:


We replaced an old danby (about 10 year old, still worked but seemed to be about half the power it used to be) by one of those about 2-3 years ago. It's actually really nice when you want less than full power as it will truly heat with less power instead of cycling full power on and off every 5-10 seconds, which can be long enough to burn some delicate foods.

Now my parents are still using their exhaust fan / microwave combo from the late 80s  Got repaired once in the 90s. Still works well but is a bit low on power.


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## OhGreatGuru

Getting an up-to date report on appliance lifespan seems difficult. Most web sites seem to be basing their information on the 2007 survey conducted by National Home Builders Assoc. in the US. I think Consumer Reports may have more current information but they don't make it freely available to non-subscribers. Anyway, the 2007 survey gave an average life expectancy of 9 yrs for microwaves, so if you have gotten more than twice that there's no cause for complaint.


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## mcoursd2006

carverman said:


> Now, this is a subject that affects everyone out there..is there anyone who doesn't own a microwave these days?
> ? [/B]


We got rid of our microwave about two years ago and haven't missed it one bit. Sure it takes a bit longer to heat up leftover food in an iron skillet or oven, but the wait is well worth it. The food retains moisture so much better and tastes more like it did yesterday when it was fresh. Also saves counter space in our small home. Since then I have not eaten anything cooked by microwave. Even at work I pack a cold lunch.

Just something to consider, that's all.


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## carverman

Most appliances made today, some in China are not made to last even 10 years.

Same for A/C units. I had my 15year old Lennox fail a couple of years ago. It was a hot summer and even though the A/C seemed to be running it was not keeping the inside of the house cool.

Called a repair tech. Took him a while to figure out what the problem was..it was a "porous copper tubing" coil on the condenser outside he mentioned.
Low quality copper tubing?..I guess because copper is quite expensive these days, they make
the copper tubes THINNER than they used to..... or switched to aluminium, like in the car rads that corrode quite frequently and have to be replaced due to the coolant inside.
I'm surprised they haven't switched to some kind of plastic tubing, but that may be due to the fact copper or aluminium is an excellent heat exchanger for cooling. 

Apparently the pressurized freon just leaked out slowly over time between the porosity of copper in the refrigerant
tubing (tiny holes due to the corrosion effect of the freon?) ..but after all , the entire A/C WAS 15 YEARS OLD. He installed a complete new system and told me I should be good for about 10 years..then I may need to call him again. 

He mentioned that in the new A/C units, most of the compressors are made in China, and he's had a lot of calls on failed compressors on new installations either within the first year or within the prorated compressor warranty of 5 years..so that tells you something.

Years ago, you could buy a fridge that lasted 20 years+, and was still running after it was retired to the basement
as a beer fridge or just recycled. Today, if you get a fridge that runs trouble free for 10 years, you are
doing very well.


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## randomthoughts

andrewf said:


> What's wrong with brewing fresh coffee? Reheated stale coffee is no way to live. I would rather drink instant.


Aeropress. I can grind beans and heat water to brew coffee (while cleaning the AP) in the microwave for each cup. It takes 1m40s, then 30s brew time (while simultaneously heating the extra water further for an Americano).

And I really do like the Inverter functionality.


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## andrewf

I have an aeropress, too, but I just boil my kettle...


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> I have an aeropress, too, but I just boil my kettle...


I don't have an aeropress or a French press, or use it inverted. Just a old school drip method. 
You grind your beans by hand, and put them in the coffee filter, pour in the required amount of spring water (Eska) and some Himilayan pink salt to enhance the flavour.

I would love to afford some of these $20 a lb Gourmet coffees..and maybe even try the Elephant Dung beans.
.if this stuff was cheaper and offered better flavour..


> The Black Ivory blend, made from coffee beans digested and excreted by Thai elephants, is billed as *producing a particularly smooth cup.*
> But it is not cheap, with Anantara Hotels saying the “*naturally refined” coffee costs a staggering (Dollar) $1,100 per kilogram* — making it one of the most expensive blends in the world


.
Ok, if this stuff is so good..could it break them to offer a free 1 cup sample?:biggrin:
Darn elephants cornered the market on this variety!


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## cainvest

carverman said:


> I didn't think that your modern generation dudes still heated up coffee in a microwave..isn't that "old school"?..
> Don't you just jump out of bed, run a comb through your head, jump in the car,
> and get in line behind all the others waiting for their morning "Java fix" at the Tim Horton's drive-in window?:biggrin:


Modern generation ??? I'm not far from retirement!

No rush hour traffic for me normally, I work from home unless I have a meeting at my office. I do like a Timmy's every once in a while though, I am Canadian after all. 



andrewf said:


> What's wrong with brewing fresh coffee? Reheated stale coffee is no way to live. I would rather drink instant.


I make fresh coffee every morning, sometimes I don't drink it all before lunch so I nuke a cup or two in the afternoon. Doesn't taste much different, just make sure you don't boil it. I'm no coffee snob, I drink it mainly for the caffeine but I do like the taste as well.


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## andrewf

Carver, you don't need fancy beans. I mostly but ground coffee from the grocery store. I just use an aero press because it is fast and convenient way of making decent coffee, and it wasn't terribly expensive.


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## randomthoughts

andrewf said:


> I have an aeropress, too, but I just boil my kettle...


I don't have a kettle and the AP makes coffee best between 175-180F (I know traditional non-AP methods use 205-210F, but with the AP it's bitter at that temp). So rather than get a fancy kettle that can do multi-temp, I just microwave.


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## Brian K

We had a Kenmore Microwave - purchased for about $700 in 1984. It ran for years until the magnetron failed. I bought a new Magnetron from Sears for $100 and replaced it. It worked great. A few years later my daughter said - "did you notice that whenever you run the microwave, we lose satellite TV"? So I took the good old Kenmore to the recycle place and bought a Panasonic Inverter unit for about $120. It ran well into the warranty period (8 months) then before the warranty was up (and yes I kept the receipt) we started seeing flashes of flame occasionally when it was running and could see evidence of arcing around the door latch. So I took it to the Authorized Repair place expecting exchange it for a new one. Nope - they were going to get some replacement parts and fix it. So a month later, I picked up the old repaired unit. That was about 8 years ago and it is still working fine. And the Satellite TV works even when the microwave is running. 
I keep repairing my Bosch dishwasher - about 10 times so far from a failed inlet solenoid, a burnt off electrical trace on the PC board, plastic spring pushbuttons that break off and split internal water tubes - yup even a German device is made poorly these days so I wouldn't blame it only on the Chinese manufacturers and I wouldn't buy another Bosch product either.


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## brad

Brian K said:


> I keep repairing my Bosch dishwasher - about 10 times so far from a failed inlet solenoid, a burnt off electrical trace on the PC board, plastic spring pushbuttons that break off and split internal water tubes - yup even a German device is made poorly these days so I wouldn't blame it only on the Chinese manufacturers and I wouldn't buy another Bosch product either.


Bosch products may be designed in Europe, but they're made in China. My Bosch dishwasher, purchased last year, was made in China.


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## Brian K

Nuts - so the Germans sold out too. I was expecting the Bosch to be better quality with a beefier design - but it hasn't lived up to my expectations. Good luck with yours.


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## brad

Brian K said:


> Nuts - so the Germans sold out too. I was expecting the Bosch to be better quality with a beefier design - but it hasn't lived up to my expectations. Good luck with yours.


You know, I remember something with the shipping package saying that it came from China, but when I look inside the door of my dishwasher it says "Made in USA, using USA-made and imported parts." I remember it being shipped from overseas, but maybe it was shipped from Europe -- which seems strange if it was made in the US. Maybe the China language I'm remembering referred to the fact that some parts were made in China.

At any rate, it's possible that Bosch doesn't make any of its dishwashers in China, but I bet some if not most of the parts are made in China.

I think Miele is the only manufacturer making dishwashers in Germany, but those are really expensive.


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## Spudd

Our dishwasher is a Miele and I hate it. It seems to have been designed for smaller dishes than the ones we have, and everything is awkward to fit in.


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## Brian K

Good to know the Miele isn't your favourite. Getting a rack you like is important so your dishes fit properly and you can load it efficiently. I like a hidden heater because in the old one we had we kept melting Tupperware parts that got sprayed around and landed on the heater.
I'll need to replace the Bosch one day - but for now I get parts for mine from a free one I got from Kijiji which they were giving away because of a reno and a slightly dented door. Lots of scavenged parts from it so far. I could go on and on. We had it fixed once under warranty with the same crappy part that failed in the first place - door switches broke because the spring mechanism to allow the buttons to be pushed was plastic which broke because of heat from the DW. I also complained about a screeching noise coming from the drain pump. The repair guy told me that was because we washed our dishes off before putting them in the DW (which we don't) and the seal relied on grease and other 'stuff' from our dishes to lubricate it so he didn't replace the pump. He claimed that Europeans didn't 'preclean' their dishes as some people do here. What a load of crap.


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## andrewf

It's not a given that something made in China is automatically of poor quality. Chinese manufacturers are capable of producing quality goods these days.


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## Brian K

I agree that not all things from China are crap. I buy lots of things from Aliexpress and the stuff is fine. Actually I'm amazed what I can buy - only downside is waiting for delivery which is between 3 & 4 weeks.


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## Brian K

I think the fundamental problem is companies are pushing manufacturers to make their products cheaper to maximize their profits and they'd rather sell more product than fix older stuff - more margin in selling new. It's also about "you get what you pay for" generally. And the microwave is a classic example of something being cheaper to buy new than repair. No stocking of spares required either - another way to lower costs.


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## m3s

Brian K said:


> Nuts - so the Germans sold out too. I was expecting the Bosch to be better quality with a beefier design - but it hasn't lived up to my expectations. Good luck with yours.


German appliances for Germany are different than German appliances for the American market. Just like Honda in Japan hardly resembles Honda in America, closer to Acura in looks maybe.. Germans are very picky about quality

Standard German appliances are built in and smaller (NA oven racks won't fit, the fridge is half the size as kitchens are smaller and they buy fresh food more frequently) I'm not sure if they are built to higher standard but I get the impression they are except with far less features and buttons.

To be honest I never use any fancy features on microwaves, dishwashers, ovens etc. Most things are better off with only a few buttons and options really. For a microwave, a simple timer and wattage will suffice. Do you really need 100 buttons for every kind of food?..


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## carverman

Brian K said:


> . We had it fixed once under warranty with the same crappy part that failed in the first place - door switches broke because the spring mechanism to allow the buttons to be pushed was plastic which broke because of heat from the DW. I also complained about a screeching noise coming from the drain pump. The repair guy told me that was because we washed our dishes off before putting them in the DW (which we don't) and the seal relied on grease and other 'stuff' from our dishes to lubricate it so he didn't replace the pump. He claimed that Europeans didn't 'preclean' their dishes as some people do here. What a load of crap.


Most of the common problems are plastic door switches and circuit boards that are too expensive to repair once the warranty expires. They do that on purpose..(planned obsolescence), some cheaply made Chinese component fails and renders the board and the appliance useless..and it just happens to be past the expired warranty..and you didn't opt for the extended warranty at the time...too bad!

Initial service call: $90+HST to find out what is wrong; cost of board $200+HST ; service guy doesn't carry the board, so it has to be ordered and he has to come back for another service call+ repair time + HST ..making that repair practically the same cost as buying a new one.:biggrin:


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## cjacob

I do see many low quality kitchen appliances today, even with reputed brand..... but most of these appliances are from China. So I will not like to buy a product made in Chine unless I am fully convinced........


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## ian

The last dishwasher that we had break down was Bosch. It was in the house when we bought it. Called a repair tech. It needed new this or that. Lots of money plus a wait for parts. 

We asked him two questions. Would he repair this if it was his unit? If not what would he buy. His answer. Get rid of the Bosch, not worth fixing. Parts expensive, parts availability not great, and he has lots of calls for the. IF it were him he would buy (at that point in time) a basic Sears Kenmore or Whirlpool model. Why...best bang for buck, dependable. And he said expect to get a new one every seven years or so. Ten if you are lucky. That is what we did.

As for automobiles. We have had GM's, Fords (new one every year from employer), Toyotas, and Hondas. No comparsion for us in terms of product quality and dealer service. If we were shopping for a new car we would not even bother going into a Ford, GM, or Chrysler dealership. But...we tend to keep our cars for a long time and we keep them serviced properly. For us, that combination points to Toyota or Honda.


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## verticalguy

*roy g biv*

Don't worry about microwave ovens, they are usually very robust. If anything, spend a little more if you fancy some special features.


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## Neytagu

Mine's a [email protected], and doesn't have a turntable at all. There's a glass dish which goes in the bottom of the oven when microwaving (to catch any spills); I remove this and use the metal tray in the bottom and wire rack when using it as a convection oven.

I find that using the convection oven function, it gets up to temperature quickly, (less than 5 minutes, compared with the 20 minutes plus that the big oven takes), cooks the food in the same time as the big oven, but I don't need to use quite such a high temperature.

For instance, in the big, built-in oven, veggie toad-in-the-hole takes 45 mins at 230 C, and banana cake takes 1 hour at 180 C. Using the convection function on the [email protected] like in this models , veggie toad-in-the-hole takes 45 mins at 220 C and the banana cake takes 1 hour at 170 C.

I've only used the grill function a couple of times, for cheese on toast, and it was no different from the grill on the big oven 

I gather it's supposed to be possible to use the convection and microwave functions together - there's a special gadget that came with it to enable the use of metal without causing arcing - but I haven't experimented with that as yet, so can't say how effective this is.


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## Longtimeago

As it happens, we just had to replace our microwave a month ago or so. In the last 12-13 years it is our fourth one. We have tried various brands from more expensive to cheaper and it doesn't seem to make any difference, they all last around 3 years and then one day, they just don't work any more. Verticalguy, you must have an 'oldy but goodie', wait till it finally quits on you and you begin to have to replace them every couple of years. LOL

Unfortunately these days, everything seems to be 'disposable' rather than 'repairable'. I remember my mother having a toaster or a kettle or an iron repaired, the shops that did that, no longer exist.

Had a chat with our local guy about our central air conditioner the other day. It's got to be at least 15 years old and I was asking him about replacing it. His advice was run it until it dies because everything they work on whether it is a central air unit or hot water heater or furnace, are all the same, 'they just don't make em like they used to.'


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## nathan79

My Panasonic is 17 years old and has shown no noticeable decrease in performance. I don't know if the new ones are as good.

We have a Danby at work, which must be nearly the same age. It also works good except sometimes the fan stays on whenever the door is closed, so you have to leave the door open when you're done using it. No big deal.

If I had to replace one tomorrow, I'd go with Panasonic.


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## OhGreatGuru

If you are getting 17 years out of a residential microwave, you are doing well. As Longtimeago says, "They don't make 'em like they used to". That applies to pretty well all our consumer appliances. I just looked, and our Panasonic (to my surprise) is now 15 years old - time flies. I have had to replace the roller ring under the turntable once. If anything goes wrong with it now we will just buy a new one. When we bought it, technologically the Panasonic had a true variable output microwave generator. A lot of microwaves at the time varied the "power" setting by cutting the generator off and on for different periods of time. I don't know if Panasonic's technology has spread to other makers by now.


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## diharv

We have a GE microwave that was used regularly from 1991-2010 , 19 years . It is now relegated to the basement as a microwave popcorn popper when we moved and the new place had a built in . But it is still working well .


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## Longtimeago

nathan79 said:


> My Panasonic is 17 years old and has shown no noticeable decrease in performance. I don't know if the new ones are as good.
> 
> We have a Danby at work, which must be nearly the same age. It also works good except sometimes the fan stays on whenever the door is closed, so you have to leave the door open when you're done using it. No big deal.
> 
> If I had to replace one tomorrow, I'd go with Panasonic.


Two of the 4 we have had in the last dozen years were Panasonic. Both lasted the same +/- 3 years as the other two. Brand doesn't seem to mean anything at all. I suspect but don't know for sure, that like most home appliances, they are all made in the same factories in China and just have different brand names put on them.


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## Mukhang pera

We have an Amana Radarange Touchmatic II, model RR-10. On the back is a plate saying it was built in January 1980. Bought about then at McDonald Supply in Vancouver. It cost $950. Kinda' expensive back then. Not sure one can spend that much, even in today's dollars, on a microwave. It was serviced once, years ago, for a touchpad problem as I recall. When we built a secondary home in 1984, we went with Amana again, but built in. That one was still running fine when sold with the house in 1998.

Our 1980 Amana is in our second kitchen because it is very large (and heavy). Lots of chrome. Our oven in the main house is a built-in, about 10 years old. I am not there right now. Unlike our old Amana, without looking at it I cannot say what make. Nothing memorable about it. I think it might be a Panasonic, but maybe that's the power of suggestion from reading here.


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## Plugging Along

We have had good luck with Panasonic. Our first one was ten years old bought on 97 and we gave it always in 2009 only because my then toddler microwaved a cordless phone in it and we couldn’t get the burn plastic smell out of I, It was still working when some students took it for university experiments. We got used one handed to us at the time, also Panasonic which was about 4 years old already, and that one works gepreat still. We only got a used one because I was so annoyed with my kid for microwaving a phone. So this currently mircowave is about 13 years old.

My work also uses Panasonic, and the currents we have are at least 7 years old and are used every day but a lot of people. No problems all.


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## kcowan

When we bought our place 10 years ago, it came with an LG microwave. Not sure how old it is. Also a B&D toaster oven. Both white is our brushed metal appliance world.

In Vancouver, a Danby microwave 25 years old. And we do use them all regularly.


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## ian

Never had an issue either. Cannot think of one that did not last 10 years plus. Just wish our dishwashers had/have been as reliable.


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