# Trump Transition and Policies



## sags

It is probably a good idea to move from the election thread to the current situation.

The Trump team is having difficulty combining the "drain the swamp" rhetoric with appointing competent people to cabinet.

Trump had a long list of policies, but they weren't very detailed. We could discuss them here as they come up.


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## sags

Some of Trump's major policy positions.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-09/what-has-donald-trump-promised-to-do/8009846 and other sources.

Immigration

Ban all Muslims from entering the United States, although he said he would make an exception for London's new Muslim mayor, Sadiq Khan.
Immediately suspend immigration from "any nation that has been compromised by terrorism" until proven vetting mechanisms have been put in place.
Build a wall along the US-Mexico border and make Mexico pay for it.
Stop illegal immigration.
Triple the number of Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers.
Deport an estimated 11 million unauthorised Mexican immigrants and their children — even if they were born in the United States starting with those who have committed serious crimes.

Trade

Withdraw from the Trans-Pacific Partnership.
Renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement and "walk away" from it if the US does not get what it wants.
Increase tariffs on Chinese imports to 45 per cent.
Restore trade sanctions on Cuba

Law and order

End crime: "The crime and violence … will soon, and I mean very soon, will come to an end".
Appoint new supreme court judges who "will be pro-life, they will have a conservative bent, they will be protecting the second amendment".
Stop the government dictating what types of firearms "good, honest people" are allowed to own.
Reduce gun violence by empowering law-abiding gun owners to defend themselves.
Appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton's emails, also threatening to jail her.

Health

Scrap the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.
Allow the states to take back control of abortion laws. Says public funding of abortion providers is "an insult to people of conscience".
Punish doctors who carry out illegal abortions. At one point he also advocated punishing women who have illegal abortions, but he appeared to backtrack on that.
Fix America's mental health system, which he says will prevent many mass shootings.

Economy and jobs

Implement "reforms to add millions of new jobs".
Reduce the top tax bracket from 39.6 per cent to 33 per cent.
Cut the corporate tax rate from 35 per cent to 15 per cent.
Introduce "massive" tax cuts for working and middle-income Americans.
Allow families to deduct the average cost of childcare from their taxes, including stay-at-home parents.
Implement a $1 Trillion dollar budget to address infrastructure needs.
Approve coal production, oil drilling in national reserves, and oil pipelines.
Fix Social Security.
A one time lower tax rate on repatriated corporate funds.

Defence and national security

Try and improve the relationship with Russia: "If Russia and the United States got on well and went after ISIS, that would be good".
Submit a new budget to rebuild America's "depleted military".
Make countries that benefit from America's defence force cover some of the cost.
Pursue "aggressive joint and coalition military operations to crush and destroy ISIS".
Work with other countries to cut off funding to ISIS.
Initiate cyberwarfare to disrupt and disable ISIS propaganda and recruiting.
Order an immediate review of all US cyber vulnerabilities.
Revamp care and benefits for military veterans.

Nuclear weapons

Speak to North Korea to try and stop their nuclear program, which would be a major shift in US policy towards the isolated nation.
Scrap the Iranian nuclear deal.
May not oppose South Korea and Japan gaining nuclear weapons.

Climate change

Renegotiate America's role in the UN global climate accord struck in Paris last year.

Education

Scrap the Common Core program, which dictates what students should learn in each grade. He says curriculum decisions and standards should be made at a local level.

Politics

Implement term limits and ban politicians from lobbying government after leaving office.


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## gibor365

Excellent policies! Wish Canada would do the same!


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## james4beach

Travel bans on Muslims is going to be a difficult one. How do they identify them?

How about Calgary's mayor Naheed Nenshi ? Will he be banned from entering the USA?

I presume that the USA will no longer receive any visitors at all from Saudi Arabia, Oman, Indonesia, Qatar, UAE... that's going to be an awfully big hit to business and economic ties, as the USA has massive business interests within those countries.

The gulf states also have huge investments in the USA. I doubt they will want to continue doing that, if it's impossible for them to set foot on US soil.


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## gibor365

> How about Calgary's mayor Naheed Nenshi ? Will he be banned from entering the USA?


 Those will be special cases



> The gulf states also have huge investments in the USA. I doubt they will want to continue doing that, if it's impossible for them to set foot on US soil.


 Don't doubt  It's all about money.... in not US, where they will be investing ?! in Canada?! ... and again, there will be special cases.
P.S> Ban on Muslims = excellent policy!


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## james4beach

Tell me, who out there is willing to buy real estate in a country, or own a business, when they are banned from entering the country to visit their property, or they can't visit to meet with the Board of Directors, Management, or take any actions to court in lawsuits related to their business interests.

If Trump is serious about banning Muslims, then the USA will lose billions of $ of investments and the money will flee to wealth centers like Switzerland, Hong Kong, Singapore.


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## humble_pie

sags said:


> Some of Trump's major policy positions.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-09/what-has-donald-trump-promised-to-do/8009846 and other sources.Education




notice, though, that this platform dates from pre-election campaign days.

whether & how donald trump will set out to implement each individual article after inauguration remains to be seen.


articles 48 & 49 of the original declaration last summer are chilling. The US is to become "the strongest on earth" militarily, with "vast superiority over any other nation or group of nations in the world."

*48*. Dramatically increase Pentagon budget: "Quite simply, the Republican Party is committed to rebuilding the U.S. military into the strongest on earth, with vast superiority over any other nation or group of nations in the world."

*49*. Cancel Iran nuclear treaty and expand nuclear arsenal: "We should abandon arms control treaties that benefit our adversaries without improving our national security. We must fund, develop, and deploy a multi-layered missile defense system. We must modernize nuclear weapons and their delivery platforms."


trump's White House plans to finesse regressive steps that could be difficult to implement nationally - such as gun control, abortion rights & enforcement of christianity as the sole official religion - by handing jurisdiction in these matters back to the individual states.

.


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## gibor365

I've read somewhere that "multi billionaires don't have nationality" . Again, there will be special cases and special visas. Do you really thimk that some Saudi billionaire will give a **** if Syrians or Iraqis will be banned?!


> billions of $ of investments and the money will flee to wealth centers like Switzerland, Hong Kong, Singapore.


 and do you think that they are still not invested in places where they can profitably invest?!


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## humble_pie

two weeks ago the trump supporters were baying after hillary clinton because she was thought to be too pro-saudi, among other blemishes.

fast forward & now the trump supporters cannot welcome saudi money eagerly enough, with special visas for all

a terrorist tycoon from a troubled state only has to be rich to be america's friend, it seems

wait, wasn't that what they were saying about hillary?


.


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## humble_pie

among the 50 promises in the trump election campaign platform was the provision that all public schoolchildren must recite the christian lord's prayer aloud, in unison, every school morning

no other religion is to be allowed

do you suppose it was mike pence had a hand in that


.


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## Spudd

gibor365 said:


> Ban on Muslims = excellent policy!


First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


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## lonewolf :)

james4beach said:


> Tell me, who out there is willing to buy real estate in a country, or own a business, when they are banned from entering the country to visit their property, or they can't visit to meet with the Board of Directors, Management, or take any actions to court in lawsuits related to their business interests.
> 
> If Trump is serious about banning Muslims, then the USA will lose billions of $ of investments and the money will flee to wealth centers like Switzerland, Hong Kong, Singapore.



I would not buy real estate or travel in some of he European countries where the Moslems are trying to take over. I know people that have stopped going to Europe due to the problems Europe is having with the Moslems. Even locals in certain areas in Europe are leaving. 

Switzerland I always thought was one of the best places to store money, gold & silver the uncertainty over the religious war in Europe that is brewing I think will scare money out of Switzerland.

For Switzerland to remain a wealth center they will have to keep their Moslem population very low just the thought of having Switzerland surrounded by countries that in the future will have Sharia law will scare money out of Switzerland.

I think banning all religions that promote war with none believers should be banned.


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## lonewolf :)

james4beach said:


> Travel bans on Muslims is going to be a difficult one. How do they identify them?
> 
> 
> .


 If not wearing Burka. Maybe have all immigrants entering burn the Quran denounce Allah & the Quran, pledge allegiance to the US flag


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## new dog

I think everyone is taking things to far on both sides here. The liberal policy is to destroy a country willingly as in Europe just to say they are tolerant. Of course denouncing and even censoring everything that they don't agree with. Liberals upset with election loss are going for censorship.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/t...fake-news-from-using-its-ad-service.html?_r=0

Luckily people had something other then CNN to look at or we would be happily walking into WW 3 and tons muslims would be shipped into the US. 

Hopefully Trump will do much of what he says except tone down the crazy stuff. I said before a good start would be Ron Paul for secretary of state.


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## sags

I would kind of like to know how Trump planned to deal with Iran.

He has pledged to scrap the Obama deal, and has said Iran won't get nuclear weapons.

Those are the ends of the rope. How does he propose to deal with Iran restarting their nuclear program, especially in light of Iran - China signing a military pact of sorts ?

I also wonder what he plans to do about North Korea who already have a nuclear weapon and are now in the process of developing missile capabilities to deliver it.

Trump hasn't said much about these kinds of issues. He prefers to deal with the knee jerk stuff.


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## new dog

He needs Russia and China to control these countries. The US can help but they are not in the position to do much on these countries and need to show Russia and China it is their best interests to keep them under control.


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## gibor365

> First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
> Because I was not a Socialist.


 Excellent quote! I agree....first Muslims came for Jews, then for Christians, then for all infidels.... So ban them that they won't be able to come for us!!!



> I know people that have stopped going to Europe due to the problems Europe is having with the Moslems.


 I canceled out trip to Budapesht/Vienna because of it


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## gibor365

lonewolf :) said:


> If not wearing Burka. Maybe have all immigrants entering burn the Quran denounce Allah & the Quran, pledge allegiance to the US flag


Good idea , but to enter US majority of Muslims will need to get Visa, this process will be much more selective


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## gibor365

Before election I wasn't on any side... now it believe that Americans did a right choice

Was watching in gym CNN, CTV etc.... All those democrats and liberals barking and barking.... Trump got elected only 1 week ago ... what do they want from him?!
Now is a new story with Jared Kushner top security clearance... they say that he's too young for this  or really ?! how old he should be?!
Than they tell that he doesn't have government job experience....but this is very good, better Jared that some bureaucrat/functioner with tens of years of government job. He's son-in-law of Trump..... so what ?! Hillary is a wife of previous POTUS 
On other hand, if Trump would dump Jared, all left will be yelling that he's antisemitic


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## gibor365

> He needs Russia and China to control these countries.


 The only way to defeat ISIS , when US, Russia and China work together as partners


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## new dog

You do seem to speak of real experience on these matters Gibor. Many liberals seem to have no clue about anything and are willing to ship in the people required to destroy them in every way. The liberals may as well ship in KKK types it would be the same result.


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## gibor365

> You do seem to speak of real experience on these matters Gibor.


 obviously , I interrogated more muslim criminals of all sorts and terrorists that james or sags saw on TV for whole there life... 
We came to Canada because I've seem that we cannot coexist in piece


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## sags

I love all the Joe Biden/Barack Obama memes floating around........hilarious.

Leave it to the creative Liberals to think this stuff up. I guess they are just filling in time until they can drive Trump nuts.

http://thechive.com/2016/11/14/the-...ion-memes-from-around-the-internet-26-photos/

http://abc7ny.com/politics/hilarious-uncle-joe-biden-memes-explode-after-election/1606452/

View attachment 12994


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## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> I interrogated more muslim criminals of all sorts and terrorists that james or sags saw on TV for whole there life...
> We came to Canada because I've seem that we cannot coexist in piece


Wow, gibor. Your ideology is far outside of the Canadian and American norms.

I work closely with people at high tech companies like Intel. The Intel offices in Oregon probably have thousands of people with Iranian, Egyptian, or Turkish roots. And of course they have families. Let's make a very rough guess and say there are about 5,000 people in this group: well-educated middle-to-upper class people.

Of these 5,000 muslim people living around me, how many of them do you think are dangerous criminals or terrorists? I've spent lots of time drinking and hanging out with these guys. Maybe you can tell me if they're dangerous.


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## new dog

The high tech people have been interviewed, have known skills and intelligence that separate them from just anybody at random I would think.


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## wraphter

james4beach said:


> Wow, gibor. Your ideology is far outside of the Canadian and American norms.
> 
> I work closely with people at high tech companies like Intel. The Intel offices in Oregon probably have thousands of people with Iranian, Egyptian, or Turkish roots. And of course they have families. Let's make a very rough guess and say there are about 5,000 people in this group: well-educated middle-to-upper class people.
> 
> Of these 5,000 muslim people living around me, how many of them do you think are dangerous criminals or terrorists? I've spent lots of time drinking and hanging out with these guys. Maybe you can tell me if they're dangerous.


How do know what is going on in the secret life of each and every one of these 5,000?
You don't.
Do you know what internet site each one goes to? No.
Do you know which one has financial or marital problems? No.
Do you know which one is in the closet and afraid come out ? No.
What about the lone wolves,do you know the life history of each one? No.
What about the terrorist acts in San Bernadino,Orlando and NYC?
How many is too many?
Why do you want to turn US and Canada into a battlefield?

What about the ordinary Muslims who do not have good jobs in high tech?
The guy in Orlando was a security guard .

What about the recruitment of African-Americans who have a grudge against the White world? 

How many Canadians and Americans went to join ISIS?



Major Hassan Hassan,US army psychiatrist, went crazy and killed a lot of soldiers.
How can you predict what an individual will do?

A small percent of a large number is still a large number.
If the potential terrorist population is 1% of 1,000,000 that is still 10,000.
It is very hard to surveill 10,000.

5,000 very nice Muslims. What if instead of Muslim they were Chinese,Indian,South American,Russian?
Recruit from other countries.
The risk of terrorism would go way down. 

What you are advocating is too high risk.
Your naivete is putting us all at risk.


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## lonewolf :)

Trump does like the idea of the gold standard. Trump could be one of the view presidents that does not help destroy the money world if he goes for it. Lets face no way are all the IOUs are going to be paid back.


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## mordko

james4beach said:


> Wow, gibor. Your ideology is far outside of the Canadian and American norms.
> 
> I work closely with people at high tech companies like Intel. The Intel offices in Oregon probably have thousands of people with Iranian, Egyptian, or Turkish roots. And of course they have families. Let's make a very rough guess and say there are about 5,000 people in this group: well-educated middle-to-upper class people.
> 
> Of these 5,000 muslim people living around me, how many of them do you think are dangerous criminals or terrorists? I've spent lots of time drinking and hanging out with these guys. Maybe you can tell me if they're dangerous.


Don't want to be pernickety, but having "roots" in the places you listed does not make people Muslim. It does not necessarily mean their ancestors were Muslim either; for example Egypt has millions of Copts and lots of Jews have roots in these places. The way you are describing them and the fact they go out drinking with you suggests they are not Muslim.

And... Can you name one Muslim majority country where minorities are safe?


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## james4beach

Not all muslims avoid alcohol, just like not all jews avoid pork or lobster. I have several friends who are muslim (as they have told me) and who drink and even gamble.

And last time I was in Turkey (which is 98% muslim), I can tell you there's plenty of liquor around


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## mordko

james4beach said:


> Not all muslims avoid alcohol, just like not all jews avoid pork or lobster. I have several friends who are muslim (as they have told me) and who drink and even gamble.
> 
> And last time I was in Turkey (which is 98% muslim), I can tell you there's plenty of liquor around


Terms "Muslim" and "Jew" don't carry similar meanings. Jews are an ethnoreligious group, Like Druze, Copts or Yazidis. There are lots and lots of Jews who are atheists and have nothing to do with Judaism. "Muslim" on the other hand = religion. I personally know plenty of Turks who are not Muslim in any way shape or form and your 98% number is totally made up.


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## olivaw

CMF is going to need to rename the _General_ section to the _Muslim bashing_ section soon. 

BTW: wiki says that 99.8% of the population of Turkey is registered as Muslim but some sources suggest that 96.4% of the population is Muslim. 98% seems like a reasonable figure to use for the purpose of discussion.


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## mordko

^ keep looking. Turkey deliberately distorts statistics by registering everyone as Muslim and not permitting an out. 

Polls show that around 10 percent of supposedly Muslim Turks in Turkey are not Muslims but atheists. There are also some non exterminated Armenians, non Muslim kurds and a few Jews.

Of course outside Turkey the proportion of non Muslim Turks is going to be much higher, people are running away for a reason.


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## new dog

It sounds like the 98 percent is a good number to go with.

Still however Trumps plan to screen and keep America as safe as he can is a good one in my books. The Dem plan sounded like a complete disaster and we have the proof in Europe and Sweden whether we like it or not. That is the thing that really bothers me about some Dems is that they see the proof and still choose to ignore it. 

They are also easily played. For example if the US never introduced the draft during Vietnam and the Dem leaders said we are there to help or whatever there fancy is, no one would have protested. Fast forward to today and the Dem leaders are backing wars and there is no draft so of course everyone is for it.


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## mordko

It's the same 98 percent as the 98 percent who voted for Saddam and now vote for Putin. The number has been faked by the state. 

It shouldn't be too difficult to get to the wiki section with data from independent polls. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Turkey


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## olivaw

My Muslim buddy is active in his Mosque. He consumes the occasional hard drink. He interacts with Jews and openly homosexual individuals on a daily basis without animosity. He tells me that he is disgusted by terrorism. 

I've met his family and a few members of his community. They seem like decent people.


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## lonewolf :)

Olivaw

Your friend & other Moslim that are fed up with the terrorism they should get together & ban the verses in the Quran that promote killing to be allowed in our Country. Rewrite the Quran If the Moslem community in Canada can not take those steps I do not think their religion should be in our country. 

Small numbers will intergrate large numbers dominate when moving into a country.

Based on internet If the Quran really does contain @ least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with none believers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic with command to chop of heads & fingers & kill infidels where ever they are hiding. Moslems do not join the fight are called hypocrites & are warned that Allah will send them to hell if they do not join in on the slaughter.


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## james4beach

mordko said:


> Terms "Muslim" and "Jew" don't carry similar meanings. Jews are an ethnoreligious group, Like Druze, Copts or Yazidis. There are lots and lots of Jews who are atheists and have nothing to do with Judaism. "Muslim" on the other hand = religion. I personally know plenty of Turks who are not Muslim in any way shape or form and your 98% number is totally made up.


Hmm this is interesting. I had not considered that the 98% figure I read could be inaccurate. And I do actually know some Turks with Jewish roots.

But even if the country is only 80% muslim, I'm telling ya, there's still lots of alcohol around. And girls in short dresses. Given that most of the country has muslim ties, doesn't that illustrate that some muslims are flexible and moderate?



olivaw said:


> CMF is going to need to rename the _General_ section to the _Muslim bashing_ section soon.


Yeah, good grief


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## mordko

Of course some Muslims are moderate and flexible, including practicing Muslims who don't drink alcohol. It does not change the fact that among 50 Muslim nations there isn't one tolerant to minorities or worth living in and that Islam is a big part of it. Or it could be pure coincidence.


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## wraphter

olivaw said:


> My Muslim buddy is active in his Mosque. He consumes the occasional hard drink. He interacts with Jews and openly homosexual individuals on a daily basis without animosity. He tells me that he is disgusted by terrorism.
> 
> I've met his family and a few members of his community. They seem like decent people.


What about Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik?

Did you know them?

What about Anwar al-awlaki?
Did you know him?

What about Jihadi John,Mohammed Emwazi?
Was he a good guy too? 



People change.
They have secret lives.

What about young males with problems who are susceptible and impressionable?

What about those young people who join scientology?
What if they join the jihad instead?

A small percent of a large number is still a large number.

Your naivete endangers us all.

All you are presenting is anecdotal evidence.


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## andrewf

olivaw said:


> My Muslim buddy is active in his Mosque. He consumes the occasional hard drink. He interacts with Jews and openly homosexual individuals on a daily basis without animosity. He tells me that he is disgusted by terrorism.
> 
> I've met his family and a few members of his community. They seem like decent people.


Olivaw,

We all know good people who are Muslims. It doesn't change the fact that there are very problematic aspects of the ideology. Your friend, if he drinks alcohol, is not a good Muslim (by the standards of most Muslims).

I am all for respecting individuals. Ideas deserve no respect, especially bad ones.


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## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> People change.
> They have secret lives.
> 
> What about young males with problems who are susceptible and impressionable?
> 
> What about those young people who join scientology?
> What if they join the jihad instead?



gosh
what if a car goes through the red light while i'm crossing an intersection & it hits me

what if there's a gas explosion on my street & my house falls down on me

what if my lovely neighbours - who've been happily living side-by-side with me for 15 years - what if they take it into their heads to join a secret cult

ooh i better get rid of cars, walking on streets, flammable fuels, talking to neighbours, everything except the christian religion which Mike Pence has decreed for the US of A. While we're at it we should ban free speech & the charter of rights as well.

.


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## sags

I am hoping that Trump gets his transition team in place and they can release some details on the long list of other policies they will be implementing. It may feel to him that everyone is "pushing" but the world awaits and he should have been prepared to take over.

It is reported the Pentagon and State Department are still waiting for direction from the Trump team. 

For the sake of the free world, I hope the Trump team gets themselves organized and people nominated soon. 

They still have to pass confirmation hearings before they begin their work and time is short with Christmas break looming.

The Trump team asked President Obama not to get too further involved, so they have to be ready to step in or there will be a vacuum in leadership. The outgoing administration is packing up to leave and are at a standstill, and the public service aren't sure what their marching orders will be to implement policy changes.

ISIS, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Syria are already beginning to exploit the "lull" in American leadership.

Iran and ISIS are proclaiming the US will deport all Muslims as recruiting tool, while Russia and North Korea stepped up bombings.


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## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> gosh
> what if a car goes through the red light while i'm crossing an intersection & it hits me
> 
> what if there's a gas explosion on my street & my house falls down on me
> 
> what if my lovely neighbours - who've been happily living side-by-side with me for 15 years - what if they take it into their heads to join a secret cult
> 
> ooh i better get rid of cars, walking on streets, flammable fuels, talking to neighbours, everything except the christian religion which Mike Pence has decreed for the US of A. While we're at it we should ban free speech & the charter of rights as well.
> 
> .


 As-Salaam-Alaikum Humble,

When Sharia law is instituted in Canada, women will have a choice of niqab or hijab. 
The niqab covers the face except the eyes.
The hijab shows the face.

The clothing must be loose so as not to show the form of the body.
They must walk behind the man.
They must not go on the street unless accompanied by a male member of their family.

So the religious fundamentalism of Mike Pence is wrong but the fundamentalism of a Muslim iman is acceptable?

Have a good day humble.

Cheers


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## sags

James Clapper announced his resignation and he will not be transitioning into a Trump administration.

As he is the US Director of National Intelligence, it creates another key nomination that Trump has to make from a dwindling source of qualified people. It sounds like Trump's "drain the swamp" rhetoric is affecting his ability to find qualified people and many from the past Bush administration aren't interested in being selected.

Between "draining the swamp", punishing those who didn't support Trump during the election, and restrictions on those who spent the last few years as consultants and lobbyists......the pool of candidates is rather shallow.

The GOP members of the Intelligence committee are urging Trump to act swiftly to replace Clapper.


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## sags

Admiral Mike Rogers, head of the National Security Agency and the US Cyber Command says there is no doubt a "nation state" used Wikileaks to deliberately interfere with the US election for the purpose of affecting the results.

*"There shouldn't be any doubts in anybody's mind: This was not something that was done casually, this was not something that was done by chance, this was not a target that was selected purely arbitrarily," Rogers said. "This was a conscious effort by a nation state to attempt to achieve a specific effect."
*
Hillary Clinton is right that Russia and Wikileaks had a coopertive agenda to defeat her and aid Donald Trump's election.

As the FBI was drawn into it, Director Comey and the agency suffered credibility losses.

GOP members of the Congress and Senate including Senator John McCain, want hearings and investigations into the intrusion. They will certainly have the full support of Democrats to proceed.

I would think the revelations will end any chance that Julian Assange of Wikileaks will receive a Presidential pardon from Trump.

Assange may in fact, end up facing more serious charges than he already does. 

I would hazard a guess that Russia and Assange underestimated the US ability to track back to the hackers origin.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/66224...ate-using-wikileaks-tip-presidential-election


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## olivaw

andrewf said:


> Olivaw,
> 
> We all know good people who are Muslims. It doesn't change the fact that there are very problematic aspects of the ideology. Your friend, if he drinks alcohol, is not a good Muslim (by the standards of most Muslims).
> 
> I am all for respecting individuals. Ideas deserve no respect, especially bad ones.


Andrewf, You appear to believe that you can use the term ideology to describe a religion. Is it some type of end run around their charter right to religious freedom and equality? 

My buddy's interpretation of the teachings of Islam doesn't match your narrative.


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## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> As-Salaam-Alaikum Humble,
> 
> When Sharia law is instituted in Canada, women will have a choice of niqab or hijab.
> The niqab covers the face except the eyes.
> The hijab shows the face.
> 
> The clothing must be loose so as not to show the form of the body.
> They must walk behind the man.
> They must not go on the street unless accompanied by a male member of their family.
> 
> So the religious fundamentalism of Mike Pence is wrong but the fundamentalism of a Muslim iman is acceptable?



wraphter do stop being silly

as i've mentioned, this is a financial sharing forum & you are not earning your keep

.


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## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> wraphter do stop being silly
> 
> as i've mentioned, this is a financial sharing forum & you are not earning your keep
> 
> .


Sharing--exactly. I receive financial information mainly. I do not know as much as others. So I benefit from their knowledge. I am a DIY investor. i am interested in the financial threads.I read them.

I read the thread about bond yields after the election. Pretty good.

To receive information fulfills the purpose of this site.

i didn't find your comments about zerohedge and the Diallo piece very useful.
It seems to me that you are unduly politicizing the financial reports and postings. 

You completely misunderstood what I said about the repatriation of the Apple money. I concluded that I could get very little information from you.


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## gibor365

> I work closely with people at high tech companies like Intel. The Intel offices in Oregon probably have thousands of people with Iranian, Egyptian, or Turkish roots. And of course they have families. Let's make a very rough guess and say there are about 5,000 people in this group: well-educated middle-to-upper class people.
> 
> Of these 5,000 muslim people living around me, how many of them do you think are dangerous criminals or terrorists?


james, I'm not politically correct person  , so I'll tell in simple English - stop bullshitting people! What 5,000 muslims at Intel , OR you are talking about?! At Intel , OR in total less than 20,000 employee.
My wife was working for Intel for more than 10 years, she was supporting exactly this Oregon location. We've been there together, I know personally Intel's employee and knew what was going on there... There are very few muslim at Intel... Before throwing number like 5,000 , just check data ... as per city-data.com in All Washington county, that include Beaverton, Hillsboro, Tigard and so on (all locations where Intel employees live) ONLY 616 muslims! (2010)...

and yes, as mordko said, muslim cannot drink alcohol , so person you were drinking with can be christia, jew, satanist, atheist - but not muslim 

regarding "wow" .... can you list countries with muslim majority where Jewish (or even Christian) live normal life?! 
I have friends who are Egyptian Coptic , Jordanian Catholics etc - they are much more anti-muslim that me, because they live with them much longer


----------



## sags

Preaching an Islamic fundamentalist takeover of the world has been part of the fundamentalist Christian theory for as long as I can remember.

Long before there was Steve Bannon and Alex Jones, there were well known and popular television preachers sitting at desks mimicking news anchors telling viewers how a Islamic takeover would lead to the Battle of Armageddon and the end of the world. They preached the same dire messaging for decades, and then they died.......and the world continued to move forward.

More access to the world has convinced young Muslims to turn from ancient radical beliefs and seek their own path.

I suggest people who continually reference the Quran as evidence...........read the Old Testament in the Bible.

If modern Christianity isn't compelled to follow the Old Testament.....why presume modern Islam is compelled to follow ancient text ?


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Preaching an Islamic fundamentalist takeover of the world has been part of the fundamentalist Christian theory for as long as I can remember.
> 
> Long before there was Steve Bannon and Alex Jones, there were well known and popular television preachers sitting at desks mimicking news anchors telling viewers how a Islamic takeover would lead to the Battle of Armageddon and the end of the world. They preached the same dire messaging for decades, and then they died.......and the world continued to move forward.
> 
> More access to the world has convinced young Muslims to turn from ancient radical beliefs and seek their own path.
> 
> I suggest people who continually reference the Quran as evidence...........read the Old Testament in the Bible.


Blame the Christians not the Muslims.
How unoriginal.
Typical ploy.

Everyone is to blame not just the Muslims.
I've been hearing this for years.

Some people can't handle the truth .


----------



## Eclectic12

sags said:


> I am hoping that Trump gets his transition team in place and they can release some details on the long list of other policies they will be implementing. It may feel to him that everyone is "pushing" but the world awaits and he should have been prepared to take over ...
> For the sake of the free world, I hope the Trump team gets themselves organized and people nominated soon ...


I'm not sure what the rush or the concern is.

AFAICT, Clinton wasn't announced as secretary of state until early December where the confirmation hearings didn't start until Jan the following year. When Clinton declined the second term, Kerry wasn't confirmed until the end of January.


While I'm all for being efficient, I'm not sure it is an issue at this point.


Cheers


----------



## sags

Good point.

_No inter-party transition in more than 50 yrs (post-Eisenhower) has ever named a Cabinet nominee prior to December 1.
_


----------



## olivaw

Racism and nationalism have enjoyed a resurgence in the United States and the world. Falsities masquerade as fact, people seek out echo-chambers, opponents are demonized and people with different religions and skin tones are increasingly described as the enemy. The president elect will elevate *a Leninist* to a senior role in the Whitehouse. 

*Obama warned Europeans that the world is becoming meaner. *. 



> "In an age of social media where so many people are getting their information in sound bites and snippets off their phones, if we can't discriminate between serious arguments and propaganda, then we have problems," he said. "If people, whether they're conservative, liberal, left or right, are unwilling to compromise and engage in the democratic process and are taking absolutist views and demonizing opponents, then democracy will break down."
> 
> He issued a warning to Trump in his dealings with Russia, cautioning that on issues like Ukraine and Syria, Moscow must be confronted head-on.
> 
> "I don't expect the President-elect will follow exactly our blueprint or our approach, but my hope is he does not simply take a realpolitik approach and suggest we cut some deals with Russia, even if it hurts people or violates international norms or leaves smaller countries vulnerable," he said.


----------



## james4beach

gibor365 said:


> james, I'm not politically correct person  , so I'll tell in simple English - stop bullshitting people! What 5,000 muslims at Intel , OR you are talking about?! At Intel , OR in total less than 20,000 employee.


Here's my math. I've been on that campus and there are tons of Iranian or other middle eastern people. I estimated that 10% of the work force might have muslim associations, that's 0.1*20,000 = 2,000. And then I said their families, so I'm assuming at least a spouse and one children, and that's how I came up with 5,000 muslim-ish people.

It's a conservative estimate. I'll bet that more than 10% of their workforce has muslim backgrounds.

And how stupid would a muslim living in America be to answer a survey and call themselves muslim? C'mon ... those survey numbers are understated. Muslims live in fear in the USA.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Preaching an Islamic fundamentalist takeover of the world has been part of the fundamentalist Christian theory for as long as I can remember.


Exactly. It's of mutual interest to Christian fundamentalist and ISIS, they both echo the same narrative and they both want a race war. It gives them fuzzy warm feelings from old days of crusades and such.


----------



## gibor365

james, "Iranian or other middle eastern people" doesn't mean muslims! I bet that you won't see any difference between Sephardi Jew and Muslim (if they don't wear religious attribute)...
The fact that in ALL Washington county in 2010 there were 636 Muslims!


----------



## new dog

Olivaw why do you think this is when KKK and white supremacists have always been around.

The reason is the left have allowed their idiotic politically correct behaviour bring in crazy terrorists and muslims who commit sex crimes to flood into Sweden and Europe. This has given white hate groups the ammunition they need to spread their message and recruit people. If it goes too far the people may want to vote in a Hitler type to get rid of these people and it would all be thanks to the left and politically correct. 

On Russia it was the west who started all the destabilization to begin with and now we have a big problem. If the US never armed rebels to fight in Syria then Assad would have taken care of things and Russia probably wouldn't have had to go there. Yeah but Assad is bad you will say but there is no plan if the US did get rid of Assad. There has been no plan anywhere in the middle east except to blow stuff up from what I can see. The result has been the refugee disaster tons of terrorism and many deaths. The plan Obama and Hillary have is to maximize the death toll and to feed the war machine.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Olivaw why do you think this is when KKK and white supremacists have always been around.
> 
> The reason is the left have allowed their idiotic politically correct behaviour bring in crazy terrorists and muslims who commit sex crimes to flood into Sweden and Europe. This has given white hate groups the ammunition they need to spread their message and recruit people. If it goes too far the people may want to vote in a Hitler type to get rid of these people and it would all be thanks to the left and politically correct.
> 
> On Russia it was the west who started all the destabilization to begin with and now we have a big problem. If the US never armed rebels to fight in Syria then Assad would have taken care of things and Russia probably wouldn't have had to go there. Yeah but Assad is bad you will say but there is no plan if the US did get rid of Assad. There has been no plan anywhere in the middle east except to blow stuff up from what I can see. The result has been the refugee disaster tons of terrorism and many deaths. The plan Obama and Hillary have is to maximize the death toll and to feed the war machine.


Dogcom, 

Many of the refugees coming to my city are sponsored by churches, mosques and synagogs. They didn't help the refugees to be politically correct. They helped because they felt called to serve those in need.


----------



## capricorn

why paint all muslims with one brush?
some of them are too busy to just take care of their day to day affairs. let us not fault them with what goes on in countries they live in.
it is a bit rich to say that if they don't oppose the order of the day, they must be somehow complicit.
I am very hopeful there is a vast majority of muslims with whom population in economically developed western countries can coexist happily.

personally, the only thing I am happy about is that repubs will be able to nominate and influence the supreme court for some time to come. 
all else just seems usual theater and majority of actors in the play are same as before.


----------



## new dog

Olivaw the few that churches bring in muslims and normal immigration levels don't concern me. What concerns me is the huge failure in Sweden and Europe and I believe the left wanted to replicate this especially in the US until Trump got elected. We all know 100 percent, the type of large scale immigration of muslims in Europe is ruining Europe. So I am simply not in favour of trying this failed experiment even though I figured it out even before Europe was overrun.


----------



## james4beach

new dog, I know you don't want any of those immigrants or refugees, but there is a massive war in Syria/Iraq. Millions of people displaced, their lives ruined, their livelihoods taken from there through no fault of their own. They are civilians; they didn't start the war.

Those people are going to go somewhere. Wars are the world's problem... especially since Canada is assisting in bombing the region, and we have boots on the ground. We can't be out there bombing and destroying parts of these countries and then say the people "are not our problem".

Even the USA has taken large numbers of immigrants from Iraq. There's about 100,000 immigrants to the USA from Iraq.

My point is that when millions of people are affected by a war, the people are going SOMEWHERE. Get used to it. This war is one of the greatest humanitarian disasters of our time, and the displaced people are a reality we have to deal with.


----------



## sags

The GOP is spinning back on the infamous "wall", saying it was a metaphor for better border security.

I don't know if that fits all that well with Trump's campaign pledges. It just don't seem right somehow.

_“I will build a great metaphor— and nobody builds metaphors better than me, believe me — and I’ll build them very inexpensively. I will build a metaphor, great metaphor on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that metaphor. Mark my words.”

"The metaphor is going to be 10 feet thick and will create lots of jobs."

"The metaphor just got 10 feet higher".

“You force them because we give them a fortune. Mexico makes a fortune because of us. A metaphor is a tiny little peanut compared to that. I would do something very severe unless they contributed or gave us the money to build the metaphor.”

"And in that metaphor we are going to have a big fat door".

"Someday somebody will say: 'We're going to call it the Trump Metaphor"._


----------



## sags

Everyone can relax a little...Rudy, Newt, and now maybe Mitt with Henry Kissinger as an advisor....the band may be getting back together.

They are talking about a campaign victory tour of the Rust Belt States.

I think it is necessary and good to have old hands on deck......but I am not sure hardcore Trump supporters will agree.

Speaker Mitch McConnell already said Trump can submit his plans and then he will decide what to proceed with.

Donald Trump isn't used to people telling him what they will or won't do. It will be an interesting dynamic to watch unfold.


----------



## gibor365

> Millions of people displaced, their lives ruined, their livelihoods taken from there through no fault of their own. They are civilians; they didn't start the war.


 So want that our lives will be destroyed too?! I also didn't start this war! Even though those Syrians started numerous wars to eliminated my people!


> the people are going SOMEWHERE


 there are like 50 arab muslim countries with same language, religion and culture.... Let them go there! We don't need them here!


----------



## gibor365

Just watch CNN in gym (the only available US station there) ..... it's so freaking biased ! Simply disgusting .... reminded me about USSR state propaganda .... RT comparing to CNN is symbol of pluralism and democracy


----------



## sags

CNN actually has real reporters stationed all over the world, unlike the alt-right and conspiracy sites who take news feeds, twist them around to suit their agenda and sit at a fake news desk pretending to be serious journalists.

If you are going to watch that stuff, you might as well watch the Mackenzie Brothers discussing important issues.


----------



## gibor365

> CNN actually has real reporters stationed all over the world


 TASS had also "real reporters stationed all over the world". The point what to show, how to show and how to comment.
Today for 20 minutes CNN showed "poor" minorities are crying because Trump won election, showed how stupid Hannah Montana is crying and so on....
Same way like in USSR they showed "poor" blacks and unemployed crying over Reagan win (


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> Andrewf, You appear to believe that you can use the term ideology to describe a religion. Is it some type of end run around their charter right to religious freedom and equality?
> 
> My buddy's interpretation of the teachings of Islam doesn't match your narrative.


Religions are ideologies. They are collections of ideas about reality, morality, and codes of behaviour. If it makes you feel better, whenever you see me write 'ideology' replace it with 'collection of ideas'.

Islam says you should not drink alcohol. Judaism says you should not eat pork or work on the Sabbath. The Muslim who drinks is a bad Muslim. The Jew that cooks and eats bacon on the the Sabbath is a bad Jew. A Catholic that uses condoms is a bad Catholic. As an atheist, I am happy when people are Christian/Muslim/Jewish is name only, and pick and choose ideas that make sense to them. The scariest people are those who accept and follow religious ideologies in their entirety. To make good people do evil things requires religion.


----------



## olivaw

Ideologies focus on the materialistic world. Religions focus on the soul, the afterlife and, usually, God. 

It's presumptuous to tell members of any religion how to follow their faith.


----------



## new dog

james4beach said:


> new dog, I know you don't want any of those immigrants or refugees, but there is a massive war in Syria/Iraq. Millions of people displaced, their lives ruined, their livelihoods taken from there through no fault of their own. They are civilians; they didn't start the war.
> 
> Those people are going to go somewhere. Wars are the world's problem... especially since Canada is assisting in bombing the region, and we have boots on the ground. We can't be out there bombing and destroying parts of these countries and then say the people "are not our problem".
> 
> Even the USA has taken large numbers of immigrants from Iraq. There's about 100,000 immigrants to the USA from Iraq.
> 
> My point is that when millions of people are affected by a war, the people are going SOMEWHERE. Get used to it. This war is one of the greatest humanitarian disasters of our time, and the displaced people are a reality we have to deal with.


Again I like gibor's points on this. I repeatedly said we shouldn't be destabilizing middle east countries without replacing it with something better. So I am against the war the west created in Syria and now we are forced to rely on Russia and Assad to clean up our mess. Of course we should help in any way we can but not by opening the doors and destroying our country in the process. Democrats were in the house for the last 8 years destroying and destabilizing countries and sending refugees to destroy Europe. If the protesters and Dems really knew this they would never support Obama or Hillary on this front. Lucky for the Dems their supporters are really stupid.

An example of stupidity was when a reporter told some Liberals in LA that Obama just nuked Russia killing millions of people including women and children. Their response was that if Obama felt it was necessary then I trust him in doing it.


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> Ideologies focus on the materialistic world. Religions focus on the soul, the afterlife and, usually, God.


Religions absolutely focus on the material world. All behaviour and thought occurs in the material world, the afterlife is just speculation.



> It's presumptuous to tell members of any religion how to follow their faith.


That's exactly what religions are.


----------



## Eclectic12

new dog said:


> Again I like gibor's points on this. I repeatedly said we shouldn't be destabilizing middle east countries without replacing it with something better ...


Agreed ... though I am staying out of this part of the discussion.




new dog said:


> An example of stupidity was when a reporter told some Liberals in LA that Obama just nuked Russia killing millions of people including women and children. Their response was that if Obama felt it was necessary then I trust him in doing it.


Is this a Liberals, Conservative or whatever or is it a US citizen thing?

I've listened to many similar silly comments before by US citizens. Examples include talking about a press release from the White House along the lines of "my good friend George W. Bush called me last night". Or I can tell you what I think of the US invasion of Iraqi as you are Canadian so you won't take it as treason. 


Of course we Canadians aren't immune to silly comments either as I had one tell me he wished more US military personnel were being killed overseas as this would cause the US to retreat to fortress USA. With 9-11 being an attack on US soil, I told him he didn't understand Americans or the example of Pearl Harbour.


Cheers


----------



## new dog

Probably a US citizen thing, you are right there.

The one I give them a pass on is the gold coin thing. Someone says they will sell a 1 oz gold coin to a US citizen for 20 dollars and the citizen says no. I can understand this because they probably think it is some sort of scam.


----------



## zylon

Sure a lot of TRUMPeting for a "Canadian" forum.
Anyone getting any smarter?

My one and only post on the topic.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> new dog, I know you don't want any of those immigrants or refugees, but there is a massive war in Syria/Iraq. Millions of people displaced, their lives ruined, their livelihoods taken from there through no fault of their own. They are civilians; they didn't start the war.
> 
> Those people are going to go somewhere. Wars are the world's problem... especially since Canada is assisting in bombing the region, and we have boots on the ground. We can't be out there bombing and destroying parts of these countries and then say the people "are not our problem".
> 
> Even the USA has taken large numbers of immigrants from Iraq. There's about 100,000 immigrants to the USA from Iraq.
> 
> My point is that when millions of people are affected by a war, the people are going SOMEWHERE. Get used to it. This war is one of the greatest humanitarian disasters of our time, and the displaced people are a reality we have to deal with.


The reason Sweden, Belgium and France are in big trouble now is because these countries have too many citizens just like Jamesbeach-people like you are like little children playing with a toy until they break it and then the crying starts and the adults have to fix the problems you caused.


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## olivaw

^I don't think a visit to IKEA, a chocolate bar and a large order of fries makes you an expert on Sweden, Belgium and France. According to the folks who live there, the countries are not in big trouble.


----------



## olivaw

Some Trump Picks:

- Jeff Sessions: Attorney General - Sessions was once denied a federal judgeship due to racism
- Michael Flynn. National Security Adviser - Flynn gave paid speeches in Moscow. 
- Mike Pompeo. Director of CIA - Pompeo is a Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi type. 

Nasty guys all, but they are saints compared to Steve Bannon.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Some Trump Picks:
> 
> - Jeff Sessions: Attorney General - Sessions was once denied a federal judgeship due to racism
> - Michael Flynn. National Security Adviser - Flynn gave paid speeches in Moscow.
> - Mike Pompeo. Director of CIA - Pompeo is a Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi type.
> 
> Nasty guys all, but they are saints compared to Steve Bannon.


Scapegoating 101


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> ^I don't think a visit to IKEA, a chocolate bar and a large order of fries makes you an expert on Sweden, Belgium and France. According to the folks who live there, the countries are not in big trouble.


SURE-Le Pen has record popularity because everything is going so well in France.


----------



## Argonaut

France is in big, big trouble. You can feel a bad vibe in the streets when you go there. There is a lot of tension. Youth unemployment is around 25%. That's a recipe for disaster. And we have already seen hard evidence of France's problems through the events in Paris and Nice. I am rooting for Le Pen.

I will say, that even as a hard-line right-winger, I'll admit that the fears about Sweden are overblown by our side of the argument. It's not as bad as the right-wing tells you. However, having in lived in Denmark, I can say that it is much safer there than in Sweden. And much of the reason why is that the Danes are tougher on immigration.


----------



## gibor365

imho, Marine will surprise the World


----------



## sags

I believe some posters on CMF were quoting this guy's "news". He owns some fake news websites.

He intended the websites to be satirical but people believed them. The guy earns $10,000 a month from Google Adsense making stuff up. 

No wonder more people are getting into it.

_My sites were picked up by Trump supporters all the time. I think Trump is in the White House because of me. His followers don’t fact-check anything – they’ll post everything, believe anything. His campaign manager posted my story about a protester getting paid $3,500 as fact. Like, I made that up. I posted a fake ad on Craigslist._

_Honestly, people are definitely dumber. They just keep passing stuff around. Nobody fact-checks anything anymore – I mean, that’s how Trump got elected. He just said whatever he wanted, and people believed everything, and when the things he said turned out not to be true, people didn’t care because they’d already accepted it. It’s real scary. I’ve never seen anything like it._

_It’s great for anybody who does anything with satire – there’s nothing you can’t write about now that people won’t believe. I can write the craziest thing about Trump, and people will believe it. I wrote a lot of crazy anti-Muslim stuff – like about Trump wanting to put badges on Muslims, or not allowing them in the airport, or making them stand in their own line – and people went along with it!
_
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...-who-thinks-trump-is-president-because-of-him


----------



## olivaw

^Interesting. Even Fox News reported on "fake news guy.


----------



## sags

Now that Hillary Clinton and the Democrats are gone, the fake news bloggers will be looking for fresh material.

Soon headlines may read......"President Trump meets secretly with alien masters in Area 51" and people will believe it.


----------



## new dog

CNN is mainly responsible for the rise of these fake news sites, if you will. Sure some people are going to believe anything and even smarter people will believe the odd thing for sure. However if it wasn't for CNN always bashing Trump and cutting feeds when Hillary was being criticized and so on these websites wouldn't be getting anywhere near the traffic that they do get.


----------



## sags

Lots of dumb people all right.

Didn't this one stand on a national platform and tell people why they should vote for Hillary ?

Cause yea, it is hard to tell if you are looking at a giraffe.

View attachment 13026


----------



## gibor365

> Sure some people are going to believe anything and even smarter people will believe the odd thing for sure.


What do you expect from Americans .
i remember there was an article on yahoo "Russian troop attacking Georgia".
Comment from American lady " What the **** Russians doing in Atlanta?!"


----------



## olivaw

Fake news guy was most popular with Trump supporters. The volume of fake news reports dumped onto this forum by Trump fans suggests that gullibility is not limited to Americans.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> What do you expect from Americans .
> i remember there was an article on yahoo "Russian troop attacking Georgia".
> Comment from American lady " What the **** Russians doing in Atlanta?!"


LOL............


----------



## Jaberwock

Trump's campaign was based on false propaganda and lies, why does anyone believe that he will do any of the things that he said he is going to do?


----------



## humble_pie

.

me i'm wondering what will be the transition hair policy on auguration day.

almost without exception, the president-elect has campaigned outdoors wearing his red Make America Great Again beanie cap. 

journo Erin Ryan wonders if the baseball cap's real purpose has been to protect the trumpian coiffure from liftoff during a windy gust.

washington is famous for cold, blustery weather during january inauguration ceremonies, which are traditionally held outdoors. How will the orange presidential mop survive 20 january/17 if it blows or snows?

will donald wear a more dignified headgear to keep his hair in place? or would this particular inauguration have to be moved indoors?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/17/can-trump-s-hair-survive-inauguration-day.html

.


----------



## gibor365

Jaberwock said:


> Trump's campaign was based on false propaganda and lies, why does anyone believe that he will do any of the things that he said he is going to do?


And Hillary campaign was based on true propaganda?!


----------



## sags

I would love to see Trump's hair fly into the stands. Does that make me a bad person ?


----------



## sags

Some people are saying Stephen Bannon is the devil incarnate, but I kind of agree with him on this at least.

_"I'm a nationalist. I'm an economic nationalist," he said in the interview. "The globalists gutted the American working class and created a middle class in Asia. The issue now is about Americans looking to not get f---ed over. If (the Trump White House delivers), we'll get 60 percent of the white vote, and 40 percent of the black and Hispanic vote and we'll govern for 50 years. That's what the Democrats missed. They were talking to these people with companies with a $9 billion market cap employing nine people. It's not reality. They lost sight of what the world is about."

"Like (Andrew) Jackson's populism, we're going to build an entirely new political movement," he said. "It's everything related to jobs. The conservatives are going to go crazy. I'm the guy pushing a trillion-dollar infrastructure plan. With negative interest rates throughout the world, it's the greatest opportunity to rebuild everything. Shipyards, iron works, get them all jacked up. We're just going to throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. It will be as exciting as the 1930s, greater than the Reagan revolution -- conservatives, plus populists, in an economic nationalist movement."_


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Some people are saying Stephen Bannon is the devil incarnate, but I kind of agree with him on this at least.
> 
> _" [Bannon says] I'm the guy pushing a trillion-dollar infrastructure plan. With negative interest rates throughout the world, it's the greatest opportunity to rebuild everything. Shipyards, iron works, get them all jacked up."_




phooie. Infrastructure? the trumpsters stole the idea from the trudeau liberals.

same folks on here who blast infrastructure from the liberal gummint in canada love it to death in the trump USA platform.


re the coiffure crisis on inauguration day , they'll move the ceremony indoors & they'll say it's for security reasons. But really it'll be to protect the trump tonsure from a windy gust.


.


----------



## new dog

CNN and everyone can keep trying to paint Trump and his help as nazis and racists all they like but that will not get him re-elected. He ran on a platform that says he will help the inner-cities and get America working again. If he starts bothering blacks, asians and jews like the left and CNN says he will do then he will not get a second term and the republican party will be in huge trouble. Hillary on the other hand only had to say nice words about minorities and didn't have to do anything to help them. This is where liberals have it made they only have to say nice BS which is cheap and easy to do.

However he can bug muslims if he wants to keep America safe because he did say he would do this if he was elected. 

The problem however is the huge debt and can he get America working again, which is over his head. It doesn't matter who got in the debt in the US and around the world is standing in the way. Then you could get interest rates rising and other problems.

Hillary on the other hand promised WW3 and Obama has already laid out the groundwork for this by bothering China and trying to piss off and blame Russia for just about everything. Trump on the other hand wants to pull back from war, so if the economy tanks, it will be harder to handle without the distraction of WW3.


----------



## humble_pie

shock in washington when ivanka trump attended november 18 meeting between donald trump & president shinzo abe of japan.

this was a major breach of protocol. As one experienced US foreign service officer put it, when two heads of state sit down together, the meeting can *never* be casual. All present who accompany a US president have to be cleared for security. All present need to be accountable to the public. All present should be squeaky clean. No conflicts of interest.

ivanka trump is actively in charge of development for her father's international hotel interests. She should not be snooping at bilateral head-of-state meetings, the conflict of interest is gross.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/19/u...e-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

.


----------



## james4beach

The Trump team is now starting up the concept of rounding up minorities into camps. Carl Higbie talked about a national Muslim registry and said: "We did it during World War II with Japanese"

I've warned about this for months. I warned that the Muslim bashing was leading down this path where the xenophobes will want to round up people, just as Americans and Canadians did with the Japanese. Read George Takei's condemnation of the Trump team's plans. He describes how, as a Japanese American, he (as a child) was forced at gunpoint to flee his home and live in a prison.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...camp-talks-of-internment-20161118-gssybj.html

Mark my words, I will absolutely not sit by idly if any similar movement starts in Canada. I have no say in what crazy Americans do, but back in Canada, I will work to organize and exert pressure to prevent these kinds of violations of liberties & freedoms.


----------



## james4beach

Washington Post: Japanese American internment is precedent for national Muslim registry, prominent Trump backer says

The Guardian: Head of Anti-Defamation League vows to sign up to Muslim registry if it is established by Trump

LA Times: Talk of a registry for Muslims has Japanese internment survivors asking


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> Washington Post: Japanese American internment is precedent for national Muslim registry, prominent Trump backer says



good grief.

i doubt we'd ever see even discussion of this concept in canada, but the fact that the US president-elect's surrounds have gone in this direction only days after the election is horrifying.

.


----------



## james4beach

It's definitely horrifying. I'm also scared that this kind of action is playing directly into the hands of ISIS and radical islamist recruiters. Trump is _helping_ the ISIS recruitment cause.

Reuters: Jihadists say Trump victory a rallying call for new recruits



> "This guy is a complete maniac. His utter hate towards Muslims will make our job much easier because we can recruit thousands," Abu Omar Khorasani, a top IS commander in Afghanistan, told Reuters.


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> Mark my words, I will absolutely not sit by idly if any similar movement starts in Canada. I have no say in what crazy Americans do, but back in Canada, I will work to organize and exert pressure to prevent these kinds of violations of liberties & freedoms.


Pressure?
What did you have in mind?


----------



## james4beach

wraphter said:


> Pressure?
> What did you have in mind?


To start with, I'd communicate with the politicians who represent me, and verbalize how important personal freedom is to me and our country. Next steps would be to collaborate with groups that advocate for civil liberties. I'd probably connect with my friends who are lawyers, and learn how we citizens can ensure that government obeys the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


----------



## sags

It sounds like Donald Trump is having problems accepting that life will be very different for him and his family for 4 years or more.

They are going into the "security bubble" that every President must endure.


----------



## sags

Apparently Bill Clinton could see a loss coming for Hillary Clinton.

His advice was ignored by Hillary and her campaign.

The election win of Trump was more of a shock to Trump, than it was to the Clintons.


----------



## Argonaut

The level of brainwashing here is reaching historic levels. Brains are washed so clean that one can see their own reflection in them. The pretend-outrage over everything is bizarre. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of pretend-outrage over Obama (Tea Party, Birther, etc.). There is no conservative high horse to be rode here. But this is 62 days until Trump is even in office!

Ivanka meeting with foreign leaders is really outrageous isn't it? Never mind that according to Japanese culture, the first few meetings are very informal. Ivanka will be the next president anyway and this is all valuable experience. The Donald is used to doing everything with his family and he will have to adjust in some ways.

The relentless attack on the winner of a democratic election by the obsolete mainstream media must be defended against. There is real, documented evidence from Wikileaks that the mainstream media is totally in bed with the Democratic Party, and during this election Hillary Clinton in particular. And we're supposed to take everything they say at face value after that? What a joke. Listen to what Donald actually says as President-elect rather than the fourteen layers of spin that are going on.


----------



## sags

I think Trump's election is also a sign that political correctness has gone too far and entered the "stupid zone".

"Christmas"...."school prayer"...."triggered"..."safe places"..."special courts for sexual assault"..."presumption of guilt"...and on and on.

Some liberals, of which I consider myself a mainstream member.....have gone over the edge.

They believe in the expression of views, providing it agrees and supports all of their views.

It became too much for average folks and Trump provided an outlet for them to push back.

As an example.......CNN contributor Van Jones goes out to "talk to" Trump supporters to find out why they voted for Trump. When they tell him why........jobs, the economy, Hillary Clinton's past........he doesn't accept what they say and tries to convince them they are wrong. It became obvious that his trek across Trump country began with the assumption there was something wrong with Trump voters.

A push back on PC and jobs lost to free trade...........and I think that about covers why Trump was elected.

It could happen in Canada as well. I think Canadians have reached the point where they just don't want to go further down the PC trail.

Everything reaches a saturation point.


----------



## Argonaut

Yes sags, it's part of the "South Park conservative" movement that started a long time ago. They taught us that it's okay to make fun of everything, so long as nothing is off-limits.


----------



## SMK

About political correctness entering the "stupid zone", here's one with the chutzpa to talk about decorum.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/michelle-rempel-elizabeth-may-spar-over-the-word-fart-1.3855612

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AocwXxfuTU4

Political correctness had indeed turned into a dangerous virus and the backlash is just beginning. Sad times.


----------



## SMK

Europe in Crisis. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-31/europe-elections-2016-17-the-votes-to-watch


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> Yes sags, it's part of the "South Park conservative" movement that started a long time ago. They taught us that it's okay to make fun of everything, so long as nothing is off-limits.


I don't think South Park can be described as conservative. They take the piss with over-the-top PC culture, but they also skewer right wing/conservative tropes, mock religion, etc.


----------



## sags

In Canada, even the venerable long time feminist, women's rights activist and writer Margaret Atwood and other notable writers are not beyond the scorn of the ultra-feminist because they dared to ask for an independent inquiry before making a judgement of guilt.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...ven-galloway-probe-to-salem-witch-trials.html


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> The level of brainwashing here is reaching historic levels. Brains are washed so clean that one can see their own reflection in them. The pretend-outrage over everything is bizarre. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of pretend-outrage over Obama (Tea Party, Birther, etc.). There is no conservative high horse to be rode here. But this is 62 days until Trump is even in office!
> 
> Ivanka meeting with foreign leaders is really outrageous isn't it? Never mind that according to Japanese culture, the first few meetings are very informal. Ivanka will be the next president anyway and this is all valuable experience. The Donald is used to doing everything with his family and he will have to adjust in some ways.
> 
> The relentless attack on the winner of a democratic election by the obsolete mainstream media must be defended against. There is real, documented evidence from Wikileaks that the mainstream media is totally in bed with the Democratic Party, and during this election Hillary Clinton in particular. And we're supposed to take everything they say at face value after that? What a joke. Listen to what Donald actually says as President-elect rather than the fourteen layers of spin that are going on.


What documented wikileaks evidence proves that the media is _in bed_ with the DNC? 

And is Putin in bed with Trump? Why didn't the Russians hack the RNC? 

Trump didn't release any plans so everybody is waiting for a clue as to how he might proceed. It's like burlesque, keep people interested without revealing too much. The press is reporting the unveiling. What else do they have to talk about?


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> The level of brainwashing here is reaching historic levels. Brains are washed so clean that one can see their own reflection in them.



so sorry to see you descending to the level of nelliekins. You were smart, once upon a time, but alas nowadays not much more than cheap shocks, threats & insults.

never mind the 5-pack, should we start calling you argoNellie the 5 Pistol Puppydog.





> The pretend-outrage over everything is bizarre.


it's not bizarre in the least. Folks here in eastern canada talk openly about the riots they're expecting among trump voters in US cities if Daddy fails to deliver.





> Ivanka meeting with foreign leaders is really outrageous isn't it? Never mind that according to Japanese culture, the first few meetings are very informal.


absolutely false. Japan is one of the most formal & traditional societies on earth. All new relationships are encrusted with more protocol than an 18th century french ambassador. Mr. Abe must have been stunned to see moon-faced daughter snooping at the meeting; but in true japanese style he would have been too formal & too polite to betray his disappointment by as much as an eyebrow twitch.





> Ivanka will be the next president anyway


moon-faced daughter has zero experience at anything in adult life. She has never held political office. She does not hold a recognized job, ie an external 3rd party salaried job that was not given to her by Daddy or financed by Daddy.

interviewed a couple of months ago by leading womens' magazine Cosmo, M-FD wasn't able to handle even mild questions, broke down in a fluster & had to terminate the press conference.

none of the above suggests that moon-faced daughter is fit to chair a school parent-teachers' association, let alone lead a nation.

smart american women are already boycotting moon-faced's tawdry fashion goods. From the business paid for by Daddy.

.


----------



## Argonaut

olivaw said:


> What documented wikileaks evidence proves that the media is _in bed_ with the DNC?


Hillary received debate questions in advance from Donna Brazile who got them through CNN. Wolf Blitzer was also implicated in similar circumstances. CNN and Washington Post also shown to repeatedly reach out to the DNC for help in bashing Trump. And this is just what we know about. In the first presidential debate you can see Hillary reading off the podium her prepared statements. Probably got the questions in advance.

The Putin/WikiLeaks stuff is just MSM lies with no proof.

sags is starting to come around and look at things objectively, so should you olivaw.



andrewf said:


> I don't think South Park can be described as conservative. They take the piss with over-the-top PC culture, but they also skewer right wing/conservative tropes, mock religion, etc.


We're on the same page here but you're missing the "South Park conservative" meaning. It's really more libertarian. They've said they hate conservatives but hate liberals even more. Trump has tapped into this angle with pro-LGBT and such. Trump has said he's grateful for evangelical support but not sure that he deserves it.


----------



## mordko

Another reason why Trump's victory is so good: it won't be too long after inauguration before Matt Stone and Trey Parker will be seeking asylum in Canada.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> Hillary received debate questions in advance from Donna Brazile who got them through CNN. Wolf Blitzer was also implicated in similar circumstances. CNN and Washington Post also shown to repeatedly reach out to the DNC for help in bashing Trump. And this is just what we know about. In the first presidential debate you can see Hillary reading off the podium her prepared statements. Probably got the questions in advance.
> 
> The Putin/WikiLeaks stuff is just MSM lies with no proof.
> 
> sags is starting to come around and look at things objectively, so should you olivaw.
> 
> 
> We're on the same page here but you're missing the "South Park conservative" meaning. It's really more libertarian. They've said they hate conservatives but hate liberals even more. Trump has tapped into this angle with pro-LGBT and such. Trump has said he's grateful for evangelical support but not sure that he deserves it.


On the topic of Trump's pro-LGBT stance, the infamous soundbite of him getting the RNC crowd to cheer for LGBT rights is really more evidence that they would cheer anything he said rather than evidence that they sincerely agreed with those views. And like much else Trump has said, he has demonstrated he can pivot 180 on that position and take an opposite one. I would not be surprised if in 6 or 9 months he's appointing a SC Justice that is hostile to LGBT rights and support attempts to undo marriage rights.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Another reason why Trump's victory is so good: it won't be too long after inauguration before Matt Stone and Trey Parker will be seeking asylum in Canada.


Yeah, a few episodes of South Park on the Trump presidency might have them seeking Snowden-levels of protection from Trump's security apparatus. Imagine the tweets!


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> Hillary received debate questions in advance from Donna Brazile who got them through CNN. Wolf Blitzer was also implicated in similar circumstances. CNN and Washington Post also shown to repeatedly reach out to the DNC for help in bashing Trump. And this is just what we know about. In the first presidential debate you can see Hillary reading off the podium her prepared statements. Probably got the questions in advance.
> 
> The Putin/WikiLeaks stuff is just MSM lies with no proof.
> 
> sags is starting to come around and look at things objectively, so should you olivaw.


Donna Brazille is a senior DNC operative who sometimes appears on CNN. She was never presented as an objective reporter. Somehow she got word about what the first question _might be_ and passed it along. She resigned from CNN after the leak. 

Cory Lewandowski is a rabid Trump supporter who also appeared on CNN. We won't know if he passed along any hints because the RNC was not hacked. 

Many on the left believe that CNN aided Trump by setting the bar so low that he exceeded it by not soiling himself publicly. They also focus on the Clinton email thing for months while giving Trump a pass on numerous Issues.

Media reach out to both sides for information and commentary. CNN even pays party reps to sit on their talking heads panels. 

The right it pissed at CNN. The left is pissed at CNN. 

I don't expect to ever subject myself to alt-right fantasy sites. I'll probably stick with media organizations that hire objective journalists.

Years ago I was a conservative. Then I saw the light. Perhaps, one day, you will too.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut isn't conservative, just as communists aren't liberals. Trump/Le Pen/Farrage/Freedom Party and the rest of the anti-market, protectionist, far right nationalist populist garbage are not conservative either.


----------



## james4beach

I agree. Conservative is not the right term for any of this. Brian Mulroney and Joe Clark, our past conservative PMs, have vastly different values than what's being shown by the Trump circle. These men valued individual rights & freedoms, equality, open trade, and progress of society which includes being open to immigration.


----------



## olivaw

I am not so sure that it is accurate to label Trump as something other than a conservative. His protectionist utterances may be inconsistent with stated conservative principles but he appears to be firmly wedded to other conservative values. 

- Hawkish Neocons will roam the White House. 
- A law and order conservative will oversee Justice. 
- Guantanamo is going to be open for business. 
- Military spending will increase. 
- A massive corporate tax cut. 
- Government will, we are told, will shrink. 
- Pence will fight for a supreme court appointment that is likely to overturn Roe. v. Wade. 
- Repeal and replace Obamacare. (to be fair, we have no idea what that means because Trump won't say.

ETA: I do get what you guys are saying about Joe Clark and Brian Mulroney. I voted Progressive Conservative when they led the party but I am unclear as to whether they would be considered more accurately conservative than a Pence, Trump or Cruz.


----------



## lonewolf :)

Maybe Ontario we can stop subsidising the US with $billions of free hydro power thanks to government Sachs a huge Clinton fund donator. Trade with the US has not been working out very well. We should be refining our own oil, We keep getting screwed with soft wood lumber. We should negotiate better trade with the US. Follow Trumps lead get rid of the carbon tax, stop radicals from entering the country.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> - Hawkish Neocons will roam the White House.
> - A law and order conservative will oversea Justice.
> - Guantanamo is going to be open for business.
> - Military spending will increase.
> - A massive corporate tax cut.
> - Government will, we are told, will shrink.
> - Pence will fight for a supreme court appointment that is likely to overturn Roe. v. Wade.
> - Repeal and replace Obamacare. (to be fair, we have no idea what that means because Trump won't say.





to add to the above list:


mike Pence wants the christian lord's prayer recited every morning by schoolchildren in every school in america
once Roe v Wade goes, abortion rights will be turned over to individual states
reinstate capital punishment with no federal pardon, also to individual states
build the US military into a nuclear arsenal of "vast superiority" (weren't we thinking it already was though)


 
articles 48 & 49 of the summer 2016 trump platform state:

_48. Dramatically increase Pentagon budget: "Quite simply, the Republican Party is committed to rebuilding the U.S. military into the strongest on earth, with vast superiority over any other nation or group of nations in the world."

49. Cancel Iran nuclear treaty and expand nuclear arsenal: "We should abandon arms control treaties that benefit our adversaries without improving our national security. We must fund, develop, and deploy a multi-layered missile defense system. We must modernize nuclear weapons and their delivery platforms."_


.


----------



## new dog

Looking at point 49 I wonder if Trump really knows what the US really has when talking multi-layered missile defence systems. Or is he using this as his words for something more complex. It sounds a lot like Reagan and his star wars program for a start. I have heard talk that a lot has come out of the money spent on this and that was a long time ago.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Looking at point 49 I wonder if Trump really knows what the US really has when talking multi-layered missile defence systems. Or is he using this as his words for something more complex. It sounds a lot like Reagan and his star wars program for a start. I have heard talk that a lot has come out of the money spent on this and that was a long time ago.



wondering why article 49 would puzzle you?

cancelling the iran nuclear treaty obviously is a plus for israel. The Iron Dome, which the US built & paid for & gave to israel as a field experiment, is intended to ultimately become the missile defence system for big US cities. There would be no other way to justify its massive cost.


.


----------



## new dog

Iran deal aside, I don't think we know the true tech the US has after all that star wars money was spent and then the money spent after that. I think Trump may be just finding this out. The system Israel has is still probably not the top of the line system.


----------



## sags

The current MAD theory is still considered as the only fail safe solution.

Don't launch because it will be a mutually assured destruction. Even the best anti-missile system wouldn't be perfect.

In an age where multiple warheads split off from the main missile......only a relative few have to make it through the defenses.

If the US embarks on an expansion of anti-missile protection, it will up the ante and there will be a return to the cold war.

On Iran, Trump says he will rip up the Obama treaty but he doesn't say what he would do when Iran restarts their nuclear program, which will mostly likely be the result.

Will he attack Iran nuclear sites with US forces ? How would that affect a recently signed joint Iran - China military protection agreement ?

Trump's polices bring up a lot of questions, but as President Obama and many others with experience have said repeatedly........they don't appear to be completely thought through to completion with consideration of all the possible ramifications.

Unintended consequences are never a good thing to ignore.


----------



## olivaw

Sad that our last best hope is for Trump to stumble upon a solution that is contrary to his own promises. :sorrow:


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> The system Israel has is still probably not the top of the line system.



:biggrin: new dog = top israeli defence expert

.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> cancelling the iran nuclear treaty obviously is a plus for israel. The Iron Dome, which the US built & paid for & gave to israel as a field experiment, is intended to ultimately become the missile defence system for big US cities. There would be no other way to justify its massive cost.


Speaking of Israel .....

WHAT AMERICANS AGAINST TRUMP CAN LEARN FROM THE FAILURES OF THE ISRAELI OPPOSITION



> For any Israeli who lived through the “mahapach,” the electoral “upending” of 1977, which brought Menachem Begin’s Likud party to power, Donald Trump’s victory seems dreadfully familiar. It is not simply that America’s most benighted voters—people from the entitled, stressed majority, people living in what has been euphemistically called the “periphery”—turned a protest vote into an unlikely victory for an extremist leader. It is that this protest seems permanent, aimed not at a party or candidate but at the establishment, while the voters themselves seem so fierce in their resentment that they stand to become a permanent fixture of a rightist bloc. During the Obama Administration, Likud became an ally of the Republicans. Now it seems a model for them.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> On Iran, Trump says he will rip up the Obama treaty but he doesn't say what he would do when Iran restarts their nuclear program, which will mostly likely be the result.
> 
> Will he attack Iran nuclear sites with US forces ? How would that affect a recently signed joint Iran - China military protection agreement ?
> 
> Trump's polices bring up a lot of questions, but as President Obama and many others with experience have said repeatedly........they don't appear to be completely thought through to completion with consideration of all the possible ramifications





i never did get what trump said he would do about reinstating sanctions against iran, once he cancels the nuclear treaty.

but then, maybe trump said nothing about the sanctions. Maybe he'd never heard of the sanctions in the first place.

.


----------



## lonewolf :)

humble_pie said:


> wondering why article 49 would puzzle you?
> 
> cancelling the iran nuclear treaty obviously is a plus for israel. The Iron Dome, which the US built & paid for & gave to israel as a field experiment, is intended to ultimately become the missile defence system for big US cities. There would be no other way to justify its massive cost.
> 
> 
> .


 Humble you most likely not old enough to have been around when there use to be a Jewish holiday volume on NYSE use to drop big time. Jewish community seams to have a lot of wealth.


----------



## Argonaut

mordko said:


> Argonaut isn't conservative, just as communists aren't liberals. Trump/Le Pen/Farrage/Freedom Party and the rest of the anti-market, protectionist, far right nationalist populist garbage are not conservative either.


I think labeling people and dividing us all into archetypes is how the powers that be control us. Divide and conquer. I don't have a set of issues that fit into one stereotype and neither should anyone else. I would say I would vote for the right-wing party in most or all cases, but have varying levels of enthusiasm depending on the candidate or zeitgeist. For instance, Trump's anti-establishment campaign garnered a lot of enthusiasm. On the other hand, Stephen Harper running for a fourth term was pretty blasé.

The unfortunate thing about politics is that it sort of forces people to take a position on everything. For instance, I don't have a position on abortion or marijuana at all. I doubt Trump has private positions on a lot of things, but he was forced to take them to enter the political realm. My biggest issues are low taxes, small government, anti-PC, anti-globalism, and skepticism of Islam. It probably puts me more towards the Canadian Conservative Party than the Republican one, but Trump's rise had a lot more fun attached to it.


----------



## mordko

NDP is the only major Canadian party that is for "anti-globalism". This has absolutely nothing to do with the Tories. Quite the contrary, Conservatives have been behind all the major international trade deals that Canada has achieved and that are keeping our economy ticking. It's the populist socialists and the far right that have no understanding of how modern production works that are trying to destroy our economy. 

But it's not just the economy and the nativism where you have an issue. What you call PC is the mainstream Conservative opposition to racism, including antisemitism, which clearly isn't what you are all about.


----------



## Argonaut

Mordko you keep bringing Judaism into discussions when it's not even an issue. Okay, I don't like Soros, so what. I didn't even know he was Jewish at first. Jews are just like any other people, one is free to like some and dislike others. I like Jerry Seinfeld. Does that make you happy? Probably not.

Globalism vs. Nationalism isn't only about trade. That's just one component of it. I am in favour of trade deals so long as they are between countries with similar economies and are enforced properly. Anti-globalism is about protecting the nation-state and its own borders and interests first. Trump worded it perfectly back when he gave a foreign policy speech:






_No country has ever prospered that failed to put its own interests first. Both our friends and enemies put their countries above ours and we, while being fair to them, must do the same. *We will no longer surrender this country, or its people, to the false song of globalism*. The nation-state remains the true foundation for happiness and harmony._


----------



## mordko

I never mentioned the word " Judaism". Judaism is a religion, an ideology and is open to criticism. However statements like "antisemitism doesn't exist and antisemites are the people that Jews don't like" are 100 percent racist, Antisemitic sentiments. For one thing the statement implies that all Jews are the same. It also whitewashes antisemitism, to claim that it does not exist one has to be on the same level as the neonazis and islamofascists who attack synagogues and Jewish children.

The fact that you have this sentiments, combined with your antigloblism puts you firmly into the far right camp

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/synagogue-ottawa-solidarity-racist-graffiti-1.3858443
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hes-crowd-Bastille-Day-celebrations-Nice.html


----------



## Nelley

Argonaut said:


> I think labeling people and dividing us all into archetypes is how the powers that be control us. Divide and conquer. I don't have a set of issues that fit into one stereotype and neither should anyone else. I would say I would vote for the right-wing party in most or all cases, but have varying levels of enthusiasm depending on the candidate or zeitgeist. For instance, Trump's anti-establishment campaign garnered a lot of enthusiasm. On the other hand, Stephen Harper running for a fourth term was pretty blasé.
> 
> The unfortunate thing about politics is that it sort of forces people to take a position on everything. For instance, I don't have a position on abortion or marijuana at all. I doubt Trump has private positions on a lot of things, but he was forced to take them to enter the political realm. My biggest issues are low taxes, small government, anti-PC, anti-globalism, and skepticism of Islam. It probably puts me more towards the Canadian Conservative Party than the Republican one, but Trump's rise had a lot more fun attached to it.


Trump is closer to your value system than almost any Repub or Dem politician-basically you are the silent majority.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> NDP is the only major Canadian party that is for "anti-globalism". This has absolutely nothing to do with the Tories. Quite the contrary, Conservatives have been behind all the major international trade deals that Canada has achieved and that are keeping our economy ticking. It's the populist socialists and the far right that have no understanding of how modern production works that are trying to destroy our economy.
> 
> But it's not just the economy and the nativism where you have an issue. What you call PC is the mainstream Conservative opposition to racism, including antisemitism, which clearly isn't what you are all about.


Moronko: We all grew up exposed to Jewish culture through entertainment/TV-we are all partly "Jewish" in that this early exposure shaped our thinking and values. The Jewish culture is not considered foreign, unlike Islam.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Trump is closer to your value system than almost any Repub or Dem politician-basically you are the silent majority.


"silent majority" doesn't work. Trump lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton.


----------



## humble_pie

is donald trump going to become the first US part-time hobby president, actively running his international hotel business operations from trump tower in manhattan while dropping in on the White House now & then?

last week trump entertained 3 indian business partners with whom he's building a trump hotel complex south of mumbai.

on wednesday Sagar Chordia, one of the three visiting partners, posted pictures on his facebook page showing that he had also met with ivanka & eric trump, the president-elect's children. 

an indian newspaper confirmed that the purpose of the NYC meeting had been to discuss the mumbai partnership.

every other US president - along with every canadian prime minister - has divested himself of his personal wealth, placing all assets in a blind trust in order to avoid conflicts of interest.

but donald trump says his business assets will not go blind. Instead, they will be managed by three of his children, who claim they don't plan to tell their father anything about the businesses.

however, judging from the mumbai partner visit only days after the US election, donald himself intends to keep close watch on trump operations.

former US senate ethics committee chief counsel Robert Walker said that the meeting with indian real estate partners, regardless of what was discussed, raised conflict of interest questions for trump, who could be perceived as using the presidency to advance his business interests.

“But for a large part of the American public, it is not going to be O.K. His role as president-elect should dictate that someone else handles business matters," Walker said.

US eyebrows were also raised when trump brought his daughter Ivanka to the first formal post-election meeting held with japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe. Attendees at a heads-of-state meeting are required to have security clearance.

in addition, donald trump has indicated that his 11-year-old son barron will remain in NYC for school. He has not said where barron's mother melania will live. There is speculation that the trumps will not, in reality, move to washington, although they will put in appearances in the nation's capital.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/u...ackage-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> The Iron Dome, which the US built & paid for & gave to israel as a field experiment, is intended to ultimately become the missile defence system for big US cities. There would be no other way to justify its massive cost.


No Humble_pie you are incorrect.(hardly the first time).
Iron Dome was developed and originally funded by Israel. Subsequent funding came from the US. There is now
co-production with the US.



> *Iron Dome (Hebrew: כִּפַּת בַּרְזֶל, kippat barzel) is a mobile all-weather air defense system[8] developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems and Israel Aircraft Industries.[7] *The system is designed to intercept and destroy short-range rockets and artillery shells fired from distances of 4 kilometres (2.5 mi) to 70 kilometres (43 mi) away and whose trajectory would take them to a populated area.[9][10] Israel hopes to increase the range of Iron Dome's interceptions, from the current maximum of 70 kilometres (43 mi) to 250 kilometres (160 mi) and make it more versatile so that it could intercept rockets coming from two directions simultaneously.[11]
> 
> ........
> 
> *The initial funding and development of the Iron Dome system was provided and undertaken by Israel.[26] This allowed for the deployment of the first two Iron Dome systems.[27] Subsequently, funding for an additional eight Iron Dome systems—along with funding for a supply of interception missiles—is currently being provided by the United States, with two of these additional systems having been delivered by 2012.[27]*
> 
> *In 2005, Brig. Gen. Danny Gold, then head of Maf'at, decided to start the program that would include the system's research and a demonstration of the intercepting system.[14][15] In 2007, Israel commissioned the development of Iron Dome, choosing Israeli contractor Rafael over the American giant Lockheed Martin. Israeli company mPrest Systems was put in charge of programming the core of Iron Dome's battle management system.* Iron Dome went from the drawing board to combat readiness within less than four years, a remarkably short period of time for a weapons system designed from scratch, according to military experts.[50]
> There was no system like this, anywhere in the world, in terms of capabilities, speed, accuracy. We felt like a start-up.
> — Eyal Ron, a manager at mPrest[50]
> *According to the leading developers of Iron Dome, due to schedule and low-cost settings constraints, some of the missile components have been taken from a toy car sold by Toys "R" Us.[51]*


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> is donald trump going to become the first US part-time hobby president, actively running his international hotel business operations from trump tower in manhattan while dropping in on the White House now & then?
> 
> last week trump entertained 3 indian business partners with whom he's building a trump hotel complex south of mumbai.
> 
> on wednesday Sagar Chordia, one of the three visiting partners, posted pictures on his facebook page showing that he had also met with ivanka & eric trump, the president-elect's children.
> 
> an indian newspaper confirmed that the purpose of the NYC meeting had been to discuss the mumbai partnership.
> 
> every other US president - along with every canadian prime minister - has divested himself of his personal wealth, placing all assets in a blind trust in order to avoid conflicts of interest.
> 
> but donald trump says his business assets will not go blind. Instead, they will be managed by three of his children, who claim they don't plan to tell their father anything about the businesses.
> 
> however, judging from the mumbai partner visit only days after the US election, donald himself intends to keep close watch on trump operations.
> 
> former US senate ethics committee chief counsel Robert Walker said that the meeting with indian real estate partners, regardless of what was discussed, raised conflict of interest questions for trump, who could be perceived as using the presidency to advance his business interests.
> 
> “But for a large part of the American public, it is not going to be O.K. His role as president-elect should dictate that someone else handles business matters," Walker said.
> 
> US eyebrows were also raised when trump brought his daughter Ivanka to the first formal post-election meeting held with japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe. Attendees at a heads-of-state meeting are required to have security clearance.
> 
> in addition, donald trump has indicated that his 11-year-old son barron will remain in NYC for school. He has not said where barron's mother melania will live. There is speculation that the trumps will not, in reality, move to washington, although they will put in appearances in the nation's capital.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/u...e-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
> 
> 
> .


They say that we are supposed to give Trump a chance but sheesh. It's one thing after the other with this guy. Trump is the new Nixon.


----------



## sags

Trump isn't going to last long. The Republicans will get fed up with his nonsense and give him the boot.

Mike Pence will make a far better replacement..........in their minds.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> No Humble_pie you are incorrect.(hardly the first time)




good to hear more about Rafael. But no, i'm not incorrect in the least.

by far the greatest part of the financial backing for Iron Dome came & still comes from the US federal budget. More than $1.225 billion to date.

although there does appear to be controversy over which country - israel or US - contributed to development & funding, there is general agreement that israel paid for the first two batteries while the US paid for the next eight, at a cost of approximately $200 million each.

although it must distress someone like yourself to have to deal with this fact, it was US president barack obama who funded the last substantial Iron Dome reinforcement, to the tune of $225 million, in august 2014, at the height of the gaza war.

in addition, the US has traditionally also paid approximately 20% of the annual israeli military budget, above & beyond the generous Iron Dome subsidies.


israeli historian Benny Morris writes:

_" Israel has coped thanks to the generous financial support of the U.S., which has given Israel over the last decade or so more than $1 billion to cover Iron Dome. Indeed, this month President Obama signed off on an additional $225 million for the program."
_
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...ome-disastrous-for-israel-20140822-story.html



the Times of israel writes:

_" The Iron Dome has intercepted hundreds of rockets during Operation Protective Edge, but is notable for its high operating costs which have heretofore largely been covered by the US."
_
http://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-approves-225-million-in-iron-dome-funding/



in 2014, white house spokesman Josh Earnest said that the Iron Dome was funded by the United States:

_"The United States is proud that the Iron Dome system developed in coordination with Israel and funded by the United States has saved countless Israeli lives."_



.


----------



## mordko

^...but of course you were wrong when you claimed that the US "built" and "gave to Israel" the iron dome (plainly it did neither). Israel designed and built iron dome and "gave it" to itself. US contributed to the funding later on, which is very different from what you claimed.


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> ^...but of course you were wrong ...




no, i was not wrong.

advanced missile systems do not spring out of nowhere. There are always many generations of predecessors. The Iron Dome did not spring out of nowhere. It incorporated features of US-paid-for predecessors.

the widely-used Patriot system as developed by US raytheon has previously & tragically failed for israel on many occasions, hence the incentive to develop an Iron Dome with its enhanced ability to take down short-range locally-launched missiles.

the shortcomings of the Iron Dome are also obvious, if one looks at the countless ongoing incidents of small drone & microradar intrusion into israeli air space.


.


----------



## mordko

... And a bunch of US weapons systems incorporate features built on Israeli engineering but that does not mean that "Israel gave F15s to the US".


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> advanced missile systems do not spring out of nowhere. There are always many generations of predecessors. The Iron Dome did not spring out of nowhere. It incorporated features of US-paid-for predecessors.


 That is opinion. Where is your evidence?


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> That is opinion. Where is your evidence?




some wonderful evidence was provided by yourself in post No 143 above. I especially liked the part about the Iron Dome components taken from a toy car sold by Toys R US.

another wonderful-for-israel feature of the story is that the US, having initially paid for 80% of the Iron Dome batteries built & delivered so far, is apparently now prepared to pay all over again to use some of the advanced anti-missile modalities ... each:





wraphter said:


> * The initial funding and development of the Iron Dome system was provided and undertaken by Israel.[26] This allowed for the deployment of the first two Iron Dome systems.[27] Subsequently, funding for an additional eight Iron Dome systems—along with funding for a supply of interception missiles—is currently being provided by the United States, with two of these additional systems having been delivered by 2012.[27]
> 
> In 2005, Brig. Gen. Danny Gold, then head of Maf'at, decided to start the program that would include the system's research and a demonstration of the intercepting system.[14][15] In 2007, Israel commissioned the development of Iron Dome, choosing Israeli contractor Rafael over the American giant Lockheed Martin. Israeli company mPrest Systems was put in charge of programming the core of Iron Dome's battle management system.* Iron Dome went from the drawing board to combat readiness within less than four years, a remarkably short period of time for a weapons system designed from scratch, according to military experts.[50]
> There was no system like this, anywhere in the world, in terms of capabilities, speed, accuracy. We felt like a start-up.
> — Eyal Ron, a manager at mPrest[50]
> *According to the leading developers of Iron Dome, due to schedule and low-cost settings constraints, some of the missile components have been taken from a toy car sold by Toys "R" Us.[51]*




.


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> ... And a bunch of US weapons systems incorporate features built on Israeli engineering but that does not mean that "Israel gave F15s to the US".



so? scientists whose never-to-be-forgotten names adorn countless physics institutes & research centres in the US fled to that country in the 1930s, although they could have fled to israel. There - in the US - they built the atomic bomb. To this day, US weaponry is foremost in the world.

flash forward to the present & the richest of knowledge exchanges occurs among israel, the US & europe in every discipline. Medicine, pharmacology, engineering, education, law, the western world benefits enormously from interacting with israel's inexhaustible & extraordinary pool of talent. IMHO there is nothing to be gained by a couple of foolish parties in this forum trying to compete like six-year-olds.

.


----------



## SMK

Canada purchased the radar technology behind the Iron Dome. http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1009679 

All 3 key components of the Iron Dome, the radar, weapons control, and firing units were designed by Elta Defense, mPrest Systems and Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, all Israeli companies.

Design idea apparently only began in 2007 and was operational by 2011.


----------



## humble_pie

SMK said:


> Canada purchased the radar technology behind the Iron Dome. http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1009679



yes i knew that

i have other not-yet-breaking canada/NORAD radar news which i'm not at liberty to disclose


.


----------



## mordko

This is the point where I have to type LOL.


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> This is the point where I have to type LOL.




would be a waste of your time mordko

if you knew what i know you'd be terrified

although occasionally on here - when you are not being rude or obnoxious or obsessed or hysterical - you have shown that you do possess a slight clue or two in the correct direction ... :biggrin:


.


----------



## mordko

Already shaking in my boots. Have you seen the doctor lately?


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> Already shaking in my boots. Have you seen the doctor lately?



what else would one expect from the mordko except another moronic insult

have you tried going in the correct direction yet, though? it could even be financially profitable for you !!

i can think of some i've known over the years, right here in cmf forum, who got the drift a long time ago. Today they're well off. Real knowledge has paid off for them. Staying calm has paid off for them as well.


.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Why we shouldn't be too worried about the Trump Presidency, by Scott Adams. Hope it makes you feel better.

I’m hearing lots of after-the-fact explanations for why Trump won the election. The most common interpretation of events is that many citizens had a view of the country that pundits, pollsters, and the Clinton campaign missed. But somehow Trump accurately identified the mood of the people – especially in the Great Lakes region – and crafted a message to fit their emotions.

That explanation of events fits the observed data. Trump’s priorities do seem to match what polls tell us people are thinking and feeling. Or at least enough people feel that way to give Trump the Electoral College win. In this view of the world, Trump is a populist who has good instincts about what people want to hear.

But as I have been teaching you for the past year, people can be living in different movies while physically inhabiting the same spacetime. In your movie, Trump might be a populist as the experts are saying. But in my movie, Trump is a Master Persuader. And the script for my movie fits the observed facts just as well as yours. Maybe better.

The Master Persuader filter says Trump didn’t identify and match the preferences of the people so much as cause them to think the way they are thinking. My filter on the election says that Trump’s skill for persuasion could have given him the victory with DIFFERENT policies than the ones he championed – such as Bernie Sanders policies. And Trump would look like a populist in that case too.

Keep in mind that most voters are handcuffed to their party’s candidate. That guarantees that most elections will be close, no matter who runs. The winner is the candidate who can move perhaps 5% of voters from column A to B. And the Master Persuader had a year-long election cycle and total media exposure to get that minor task accomplished. This is why I predicted Trump’s win a year before it happened. 

I don’t believe reality is something the human brain can understand. We didn’t evolve with the ability to see reality for what it is. Evolution only cares if we survive and procreate. In this case, people who think Trump is a populist can have babies, and so can the people who think we elected Hitler, and so can the people who think Trump is a well-meaning Master Persuader. That’s three different movies. Evolution doesn’t care which worldview is right, if any. It only cares that we can make more babies. And we can.

Still, it might matter who has the most “useful” movie among us. The Master Persuader movie did a good job in predicting Trump’s success. It also predicts Trump moving to the middle, persuading Pence to be more LGBTQ-friendly, and good relations with other countries. That’s the movie plot I see coming.

But some of you are in a movie that is dark and dangerous. Perhaps you see a world in which the next Hitler just came to power. Some of you see a clown with no skill coming to power because his populist message was effective. Those are scary movies compared to my feel-good film. If you could switch to my movie, and lose nothing but your anxiety for the future, wouldn’t you want to do it? In my movie, we have lots of Trump success ahead and none of the dark possibilities will come to pass.

So how can you tell whether or not you are in the wrong movie? I’ll give you a few clues.

Consider…

If Trump didn’t win because of his persuasion skills, which other Republican candidate can you imagine beating Clinton?

You might be thinking that Clinton’s email problems and the Comey announcements made her an unusually weak candidate, and that means any sane Republican could have beaten her. But you’d be wrong. The reason that the emails, the Comey decisions, and Wikileaks were so effective is that Trump had been labelling Clinton “Crooked Hillary” for months. That created the confirmation bias trap that made everything Clinton ever did sound suspicious. None of the other candidates would have crafted such a perfect persuasion trap.

I also have a hard time imagining any other candidate going after Bill Clinton so hard that it took him out of the game. Was Jeb going to do that?

If you believe Trump’s skill for persuasion wasn’t the key variable in his win, you have to imagine some other candidate beating Clinton with the same set of policies as Trump. Personally, I can’t imagine it.

If you think Trump is the next Hitler, or a clown who got lucky with his populist message, you have to ask yourself why the stock market and the dollar are both up following the election. The smartest money-managers in the world have already abandoned their old movies and jumped over to movies they see as more useful for making money, apparently.

If you think Trump is the next Hitler, you have to ask yourself why every major world power has already said they think they can work with him, no problem.

If you think Trump is a lucky incompetent who inherited money from his father, you have to explain why he has succeeded in real estate, reality TV, and now politics. Can incompetent people win that bigly in three different arenas while everyone is watching?

If you think Trump has anti-semite advisors, you have to wonder why his son-in-law Jared Kushner hasn’t noticed any of that and is working hard for Trump.

If you think Trump is a racist, you have to wonder how he learned to act so well that he could be in this picture looking as non-racist as a person can look.

(picture won't transfer but you can see it here http://blog.dilbert.com/post/153480921421/persuasion-versus-populism )

And if you think Trump is any or all of the things you heard from the mainstream media, you have to wonder why they were so thoroughly wrong about the one thing that can be measured objectively – the election results.

You might also wonder why the anti-Trump protests are petering out. If a real Hitler came to power, would people get tired of walking around outside to protest? 

The biggest demographic group opposing Trump – including the ones on the street – are young people. Objectively speaking, young people are the dumbest people within every demographic group. I was dumber when I was younger. So were you. So is everyone else. Ask yourself if it is a coincidence that the dumbest people within every demographic group lean in the same direction.

The Master Persuader filter says that young people have not yet experienced multiple situations in which the media scares the public over nothing. To them, the fear of Trump is real because the Internet and the media says it is real. To people my age, we have seen one fake media scare after another. We don’t believe in fake scares the same way that that young people do because we’ve been through it so many times.

As the election season fog begins to clear, most people will start to see Trump as an unconventional president whose policies conform to the preferences of the governed. But that simple movie is boring. I invite you to join my movie, in which each of us has a small role in making America Great Again. You just have to find your part.

It’s a good movie. I think you’ll like it.


----------



## sags

_Posted also in other thread._

I also think Trump is treating the solemnity and responsibilities of the office of President rather flippantly.

The centre of power is in the White House in Washington. Trump's cabinet and likely the VP will be located in Washington.

The situation room is located in the White House. There are underground bunkers located in the White House and preparations are well established to move the President and VP to secure locations from the White House.

Trump wanting to commute from Trump Tower in New York would cause great problems with all of the above.

What if there was an immediate emergency and Trump was in New York, while all of his national advisers were in Washington ?

Does the world wait while Trump flies to Washington to respond to a "3 a.m. phone call" ?


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> _Posted also in other thread._
> 
> I also think Trump is treating the solemnity and responsibilities of the office of President rather flippantly.
> 
> The centre of power is in the White House in Washington. Trump's cabinet and likely the VP will be located in Washington.
> 
> The situation room is located in the White House. There are underground bunkers located in the White House and preparations are well established to move the President and VP to secure locations from the White House.
> 
> Trump wanting to commute from Trump Tower in New York would cause great problems with all of the above.
> 
> What if there was an immediate emergency and Trump was in New York, while all of his national advisers were in Washington ?
> 
> Does the world wait while Trump flies to Washington to respond to a "3 a.m. phone call" ?




i believe the secure presidential evacuation is instantly to Cheyenne Mountain in colorado. That's where they flew president Bush first thing the morning of 9/11, as soon as the world trade towers had been hit.

of course, by the afternoon, once the chaos was somewhat under control, they had flown him back to washington again. But the safety of the president's life came first.

can you imagine the cost to the taxpayers of setting up all those secure systems & evacuation procedures for trump tower in NYC?

like, they don't just plan these evacuation procedures. They have to train for them in real life flying practice. Keep on training. Year in, year out.

&. what. about. trump's. e-mails. from. trump. towers.

makes hillary clinton's basement e-mail server - which she had routinely used without incident ever since her days as first lady - look like a field of pure white lilies, doesn't it.

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Given the number of vacations and trips Obama has taken I am sure they have security, and communications outside Washington down pat. Trump won't be able to spend all his time in New York. He will have to work with Congress and other government agencies. But there is no reason he can't spend some time there.

Hillary could have just as easily used a secure government email server, in fact it would have been easier. There were just some things she wanted to keep from official government notice. She didn't think about being hacked by foreign spies.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Given the number of vacations and trips Obama has taken I am sure they have security, and communications outside Washington down pat. Trump won't be able to spend all his time in New York. He will have to work with Congress and other government agencies. But there is no reason he can't spend some time there.



when the US president works or vacations abroad, he is attended by the super elite US air force rescue squadrons who fly with him night & day. They never leave his side. Same thing for canada's prime minister.

these are highly trained & experienced combat air rescue operators. You are saying that the same are to attend upon trump towers, at taxpayer expense, whenever donald trump feels a need to chill in a vulgar gold-plated environment?


.


----------



## sags

Not just Trump using secured email servers, what about his adult children ? Will they be required to use government servers as well ?

It is also worth noting the White House is a heavily fortified secure location, with heavy bulletproof windows, guardhouses, barriers etc. 

Trump Tower is a regular construction home to many other tenants and businesses. People are coming in and out all the time.

The airspace around the White House and much of Washington is also protected. It is a no fly zone.

How does the Secret Service come remotely close to securing Trump Towers or New York airspace ?

Trump's continually reminds that he doesn't fully comprehend the challenge he has taken on.


----------



## mordko

Here is an excellent and thorough article which explains Bannon's relationship with alt-right and racism in general:

http://heatst.com/politics/how-step...ti-semites-to-the-front-of-american-politics/


----------



## olivaw

Time maintains a *Handy List of Trump's Biggest Conflicts of Interests*. 

Normally, Presidents make their tax returns public and place their assets into a blind trust. They move into the White House and focus entirely on the important business of being the so-called "leader of the free world" and commander in chief. 

Trump has decided instead to spend much of his time at the headquarters of his business empire (Trump Tower) and allow his children to be intimately involved in both his business and his government affairs.


----------



## sags

It is a problem when Trump supporters willingly recognize his "shortcomings" but choose to ignore them because they believe he understands their frustrations and problems and will advocate on their behalf. They believe Trump will fix the problems that "establishment" politicians like Hillary Clinton ignored for years.

I am skeptical that Trump or his closest advisers........his family, understand much about the daily financial struggles of millions of Americans.

I doubt they ever ran out of bread or baby formula before payday. I doubt they ever struggled to pay student loans or chose between medicine and the rent.

Millions of Americans losing their property was a business opportunity for Trump.

If experience is the best teacher, the Trump family has zero experience regarding "ordinary" family problems.

The American people are going to become very angry in a hurry if Trump doesn't produce results.

The days of "I will tell you later" are quickly coming to a close.


----------



## wraphter

maybe Melania can visit him with or without Barron for the weekend?
They just want to keep him in the same school until the end of the school year.


----------



## mordko

Sure. And in the same palace.


----------



## wraphter

mordko said:


> Sure. And in the same palace.


Well he seems like a sensitive kid and sort of serious.
Trump used the name Barron when he called in to gossip columnists
to talk about himself.

One day walking in NYC I went in to Trump Tower.
It is all gold marble and reflections. The escalators go up about 5 floors so one gets a good view looking down.


----------



## twa2w

humble_pie said:


> i believe the secure presidential evacuation is instantly to Cheyenne Mountain in colorado. That's where they flew president Bush first thing the morning of 9/11, as soon as the world trade towers had been hit.
> 
> of course, by the afternoon, once the chaos was somewhat under control, they had flown him back to washington again. But the safety of the president's life came first.
> 
> can you imagine the cost to the taxpayers of setting up all those secure systems & evacuation procedures for trump tower in NYC?
> 
> like, they don't just plan these evacuation procedures. They have to train for them in real life flying practice. Keep on training. Year in, year out.
> 
> &. what. about. trump's. e-mails. from. trump. towers.
> 
> makes hillary clinton's basement e-mail server - which she had routinely used without incident ever since her days as first lady - look like a field of pure white lilies, doesn't it.
> 
> .


Bush was in a school in Sarasota Florida when 9/11 happened.


----------



## humble_pie

twa2w said:


> Bush was in a school in Sarasota Florida when 9/11 happened.




did anyone say otherwise .each:

it did not matter where Bush was when word first came that 2 planes with unknown pilots were flying towards the world trade towers. He was flown immediately to the NORAD bunker in Cheyenne Mountain in colorado. This is the US military command centre.

very quickly, during the early afternoon, Bush was flown back to washington to resume leadership in full public view.

.


----------



## humble_pie

i'm sure the american people will warmly embrace the young Trump lad remaining in whatever school he & his parents decide is best for him, for as many years as would be necessary or desirable.

melania the mother could manage to travel between her son & her official duties as first lady in washington. Again, i'm sure americans & the secret service who would co-ordinate her travels would warmly welcome whatever adjustments would be necessary.

what daunts me is the prospect of an uncommitted US president lolling & languishing amongst the pseudo versailles gold plate at the top of trump tower. Meeting casually with his mumbai real estate partners. Flicking his attention to washington whenever he might happen to feel in the mood.

i mean, it's unprecedented. In our lifetimes we have never seen or even heard of a new US president who was not devoted to his country. Who was not passionate to speak to his electors, to stay as close to power in washington as he could. Who was not head-over-heels in love with his job.

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

At least we don't have to worry about him taking time off to play golf.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/president-obama-plays-300th-round-of-golf-as-president/


----------



## james4beach

humble_pie said:


> what daunts me is the prospect of an uncommitted US president lolling & languishing amongst the pseudo versailles gold plate at the top of trump tower. Meeting casually with his mumbai real estate partners. Flicking his attention to washington whenever he might happen to feel in the mood.
> 
> i mean, it's unprecedented. In our lifetimes we have never seen or even heard of a new US president who was not devoted to his country. Who was not passionate to speak to his electors, to stay as close to power in washington as he could. Who was not head-over-heels in love with his job.


It is pretty surprising to get a guy who _doesn't like_ government heading the government.

It's happened in Canada too. Those on the right who don't appreciate the public service, and think it's an unnecessary waste of resources, worked hard to trim back the public sector to make it look "like a business".


----------



## james4beach

mordko said:


> Here is an excellent and thorough article which explains Bannon's relationship with alt-right and racism in general:
> 
> http://heatst.com/politics/how-step...ti-semites-to-the-front-of-american-politics/


Thanks mordko, that's a good article and worth reading.

This helps clarify some things for me. There is indeed a difference between "alt-right" and people like Breitbart's Bannon, and Trump himself. They're not the same crew, but they are related.

What's always bothered me is that, as the article says, "the alt-right is predominantly a racist movement". And yes, it is. Absolutely. I hang out on message forums where there are many alt-right posters, and the things they post are horrifying and dripping with hate.

This article is pointing out that Bannon (and I'll add Trump to this) may not share this racism, as personal values. However they have helped propel the movement. I can't respect anyone who is raising the visibility of the white nationalist / white supremacist movement.


----------



## mordko

Trimming the public sector in Canada is exactly what our government needs. Having empire builders run the government is the best way to burden the poor taxpayer with unmanageable debt. That happens to be the exact road the boy king is taking.


----------



## mordko

Worth noting that Trump is also a big spender and should be loved by the borrow and spend crowd. His trillions for the infrastructure program is a copycat of Obamas. That worked so well to spark growth that we are still waiting.


----------



## wraphter

james 4beach said:


> It is pretty surprising to get a guy who doesn't like government heading the government.


Trump did not emphasize reduction in the size of the government in his campaign.He is not a libertarian. His central theme was the relationship between
America and the external world and its impact on his favoured demographic, namely white people. To this end he wants to radically change various aspects of the situation to give then a better deal. He wants to change immigration, trade deals and security relationships in Europe and the East.

His campaign did not particularly focus on international bankers which was a codeword for Jews as some have said before.
He did not advocate a final solution to the Jewish problem as some here with overwrought imaginations seem to suggest.
Some here seem to think we are in Germany in the thirties.
He did however quite forcefully target Mexicans and Muslims.
However there was a very groupish or even tribal quality to his message and the group whose interests he was promoting 
was mainly the neglected white working class.So there was very much an us versus them quality to what he professed.

Some upthread have suggested he won't work too hard. This is not what happened in the campaign . He needs very little sleep,only 4 or 5 hours. He has great deal of 'stamina' as he himself boasted..


----------



## humble_pie

most of the pro-Trumps who love trump's big infrastructure spending promises in the US are the same parties who loathed trudeau's infrastructure ambitions in canada. Go figure.


.


----------



## sags

Trump is starting to remind me of Billy Carter.....a little unwound who pops up at the White House once in awhile.

Maybe Trump and Pence could split the duties.........like work sharing.

Trump is President on Mondays and Wednesdays..........and Pence is President the other days.

Ivanka the Wise will be around to guide them if they run into any problems.


----------



## humble_pie

^^

sags if u do nothing else tonight u surely would like to look at Rusty's NY Post link to a story about trump's press conference. It was a corker.


http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...ing-the-Left?p=1357402&viewfull=1#post1357402


.


----------



## james4beach

wraphter said:


> He needs very little sleep,only 4 or 5 hours. He has great deal of 'stamina' as he himself boasted..


No, he _needs_ more than 4 hours sleep just as any human does. He's _getting _only 3-5 hours according to what we've heard.

That's not healthy, and it doesn't matter how hard he works: a human who is only sleeping 4 hours a night suffers from impaired function. Maybe that's why he's had so many failed businesses.


----------



## new dog

Good post wraphter.

James and Mordko most people are racists and if you look back you will probably find stuff said on most people. The left is racist against white people and support the likes of BLM and so on.

James here are some friends of the left who got charged but didn't get hate crime charges. Of course CNN doesn't care about this why would they

http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/local/216687382-story


----------



## olivaw

Most people are *not* racist. *This* is racism. And this is the scum that Trump embraced through Steve Bannon. 






Hail Trump - disgusting.


----------



## wraphter

new dog said:


> Good post wraphter.
> 
> James and Mordko most people are racists and if you look back you will probably find stuff said on most people. The left is racist against white people and support the likes of BLM and so on.
> 
> James here are some friends of the left who got charged but didn't get hate crime charges. Of course CNN doesn't care about this why would they
> 
> http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/local/216687382-story


good video new dog. Really raw emotion.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Most people are *not* racist. *This* is racism. And this is the scum that Trump embraced through Steve Bannon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hail Trump - disgusting.


I think there was 200 people in the room.


----------



## andrewf

wraphter said:


> He needs very little sleep,only 4 or 5 hours. He has great deal of 'stamina' as he himself boasted..


Would you want a surgeon operating on you who consistently got only 4-5 hours sleep? How about a pilot flying the aircraft you're a passenger on?


----------



## andrewf

wraphter said:


> I think there was 200 people in the room.




^The fact that they believe they have allies in the new administration should be concerning. Let's not be blasé about neo-nazis. Anyone who a neo-nazi considers a friend is someone I am deeply suspicious of.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Most people are *not* racist. *This* is racism. And this is the scum that Trump embraced through Steve Bannon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hail Trump - disgusting.


They are kinda funny with their little Breitbart lingo and propensity for German. And the right hand just can't contain itself. And the "MSM" diatribes... One or two people from this very forum should sue them for plagiarism. 

Now... the incoming Chief Strategist for the US of A describes Richard Spencer as a "leading intellectual".

America is officially fucked up.


----------



## mordko

Then again, I am certain 100% of people in the room are the leftists trying to discredit Trump supporters. Right?


----------



## james4beach

When I saw this, I said a little prayer that the people in the video are actors and that this is staged.

Then I saw that the video is from The Atlantic (a top quality magazine) and one of the journalists on the piece is a senior editor with a PhD in History. He previously taught at Harvard. The more junior journalist is a McGill University grad. It's highly unlikely that the senior editor, with his credentials, would risk his reputation and career on a fabricated piece.

Given that the piece is on the front page of The Atlantic's web site, and the authorship by a senior editor with a PhD and teaching career at Harvard, I give it about 99% probability of being true. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/

*mordko*:you're right. Bannon (now in Trump's cabinet) was in charge of Breitbart at the time it described Spencer as one of the movement's intellectual leaders: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...site_described_as_a_leading_intellectual.html

I'm actually feeling queasy from this


----------



## olivaw

You can't blame Trump for the actions of his supporters. 

But it is noteworthy that he didn't tweet a single objection to the "Hail Trump" neo-nazis. 

He chose instead to take offence on twitter about the cast of Hamilton for saying: 



> Vice President-elect Pence, we welcome you and we truly thank you for joining us at Hamilton: An American Musical. We really do.
> 
> We, sir, are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents — or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir.
> 
> But we truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and work on behalf of all of us. All of us.
> 
> We truly thank you for sharing this show — this wonderful American story told by a diverse group of men, women of different colors, creeds, and orientations.


----------



## new dog

Trump has told his supporters to stop it when it comes to racist crap. I don't see Obama out telling BLM to stop it on their radical side.


----------



## new dog

I probably fear Trudeau more then Trump. I wonder if he has plans to fill Canada up with so many people that the Liberals always get in. Then you have to worry about the people he brings in. I don't know if he is looking for skilled people to help Canada move forward or to just add to our homeless and housing problems. Not to mention the terrorists and who knows what else.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> I probably fear Trudeau more then Trump. I wonder if he has plans to fill Canada up with so many people that the Liberals always get in. Then you have to worry about the people he brings in. I don't know if he is looking for skilled people to help Canada move forward or to just add to our homeless and housing problems. Not to mention the terrorists and who knows what else.


40 years ago the child poverty rate in Toronto was 4%-now it is 27%-so the plan seems to be working well.


----------



## Nelley

Supposedly Trump summoned all the big wigs of the MSM over to Trump Tower and blasted them-called them liars, etc-this guy is starting out on the right foot-that is for sure. He should have televised the meeting on live TV- f-ck those pieces of garbage.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I used to like and trust The Atlantic. It was one of the oldest most trusted magazines in the world. But during the election campaign they published some of the most slanted anti Trump propaganda there is, and that is saying something. Now I regard them as an anti Trump propaganda sheet.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Supposedly Trump summoned all the big wigs of the MSM over to Trump Tower and blasted them-called them liars, etc-this guy is starting out on the right foot-that is for sure. He should have televised the meeting on live TV- f-ck those pieces of garbage.


Sure, the Donald must find it most annoying to have to put up with the free press - with their fact checking and investigative journalism. His hissy fit is perfectly understandable. Did he storm out of the room and slam the door too? :sulkiness:


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Trump has told his supporters to stop it when it comes to racist crap. I don't see Obama out telling BLM to stop it on their radical side.


*WHITEHOUSE: President Obama's statement on the attack in Baton Rouge*.



> "I condemn, in the strongest sense of the word, the attack on law enforcement in Baton Rouge. For the second time in two weeks, police officers who put their lives on the line for ours every day were doing their job when they were killed in a cowardly and reprehensible assault. These are attacks on public servants, on the rule of law, and on civilized society, and they have to stop.
> 
> "I’ve offered my full support, and the full support of the federal government, to Governor Edwards, Mayor Holden, the Sheriff’s Office, and the Baton Rouge Police Department. And make no mistake – justice will be done.
> 
> "We may not yet know the motives for this attack, but I want to be clear: there is no justification for violence against law enforcement. None. These attacks are the work of cowards who speak for no one. They right no wrongs. They advance no causes. The officers in Baton Rouge; the officers in Dallas – they were our fellow Americans, part of our community, part of our country, with people who loved and needed them, and who need us now – all of us – to be at our best.
> 
> "Today, on the Lord’s day, all of us stand united in prayer with the people of Baton Rouge, with the police officers who’ve been wounded, and with the grieving families of the fallen. May God bless them all."


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Sure, the Donald must find it most annoying to have to put up with the free press - with their fact checking and investigative journalism. His hissy fit is perfectly understandable. Did he storm out of the room and slam the door too? :sulkiness:


This isn't 1986-it is 2016-the % of the population that buys that B/S you and the MSM are selling is dropping every day-accept it and move on.


----------



## olivaw

And at the memorial service for the fallen police officers in Dallas

*TIME: Read President Obama’s Speech From the Dallas Memorial Service*



> When anyone, no matter how good their intentions may be, paints all police as biased, or bigoted, we undermine those officers that we depend on for our safety. And as for those who use rhetoric suggesting harm to police, even if they don’t act on it themselves, well, they not only make the jobs of police officers even more dangerous, but they do a disservice to the very cause of justice that they claim to promote.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> This isn't 1986-it is 2016-the % of the population that buys that B/S you and the MSM are selling is dropping every day-accept it and move on.


Alexa rankings *for the top ten news sites*: 


1. Https://www.reddit.com/ (aggregator)
2. Cnn.com 
3. Nytimes.com
4. Huffingtonpost.com
5. Theguardian.com
6. Foxnews.com
7. News.yahoo.com
8. Forbes.com
9. Https://news.google.com/ (aggregator)
10. Bbc.co.uk/news/


----------



## sags

One of Trump's potential nominees was walking around carrying Department of Homeland Security briefings, and stopped for a photo op.

The photo was released to the public and people read what they could see.

At least they "released" some of their plans............LOL.

Freaking amateur hour...........

_A photo taken by an Associated Press photographer shows Kobach shaking Trump's hand while holding a binder and papers. The papers face the camera and, according to a report from The Topeka Capital-Journal, reveal plans to question "high-risk" immigrants over support for Sharia law and the U.S. Constitution. A bullet point says "Bar the Entry of Potential Terrorists."
The Topeka-Journal also noted that the document calls for an update and reintroduction of the National Security Entry-Exit Registration system, originally implemented after 9/11. It mentioned "extreme vetting questions" for "high-risk aliens" as well.

Kobach's papers also suggest eliminating Syrian refugee intake. _

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...cidentally-reveals-homeland-security-plans-in


----------



## sags

olivaw said:


> Alexa rankings *for the top ten news sites*:
> 
> 
> 1. Https://www.reddit.com/ (aggregator)
> 2. Cnn.com
> 3. Nytimes.com
> 4. Huffingtonpost.com
> 5. Theguardian.com
> 6. Foxnews.com
> 7. News.yahoo.com
> 8. Forbes.com
> 9. Https://news.google.com/ (aggregator)
> 10. Bbc.co.uk/news/


Reddit is a great website for indepth readership knowledge on anything, but I never considered it an actual news source.

They have a lot of posts on the US Politics page though.


----------



## olivaw

I too was surprised that Alexa classified Reddit as a news source. Maybe the young people use it. 

There was a link to a Hill news report about Trump using the congratulatory phone call from the Argentina's president to press him about regulatory approvals for a Trump building in Buenos Aires.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> At least they "released" some of their plans............LOL.


Such sad priorities.

In this American city I live in (considered one of _the best_ US cities), the streets are filled with homeless people. One-sixth of America is on food stamps... rampant drug and alcohol problems, including neglected and forgotten veterans wandering the streets, begging for money. Casualties of their endless wars. Prisons absolutely overflowing with men. The highest incarceration rate in the WORLD ... largest amount of its citizens in jail. Shockingly high numbers, more than 600% Canada's imprisonment rate per capita. You can go to jail in the USA at the drop of a hat, and you will never work again. It's mind boggling. 1 in every 100 adults is in prison!

And it shows. I walk through a city park on a daily basis and keep overhearing conversations, men talking about their parole, their last time in jail, the a*hole judge. Wow. This country is a wreck.

But Trump knows how to make American great again!

Give those damned immigrants a patriotism quiz!! Great idea. Give them some crayons and get them to colour in the American flag. Immigrants who pass the test receive little Jesus ornaments with blinking lights maybe? Trump can import those from China. He has the best business connections. The best.

Yes, Trump, yes! That's going to solve America's problems. The immigrants caused all of this!


----------



## mordko

US does not have the highest incarceration rate in the WORLD, nor is it quite 1 in every 100 adults but it's high. And yes, immigrants have a lot to do with it. Around 25% of incarcerated people happen to be foreigners, mostly from Mexico. Take them off the list and US would be mid-pack. 

Of the remainder most are doing time for drug-related offenses. That might have something to do with the porous borders; although it's just a wild guess of mine.


----------



## mordko

We've just seen a nice video showing the racists linked to the incoming President and his strategist.

Here is the other side of the coin... 

This video shows the leader of the organization, of which the incoming DNC leader was a prominent member for many years: 




Keith Ellison himself also promoted antisemitic and 9/11 conspiracy theories. 

So... It's not like the Democrats are that much better.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> And at the memorial service for the fallen police officers in Dallas
> 
> *TIME: Read President Obama’s Speech From the Dallas Memorial Service*


Meanwhile he can't bring himself to say 'radical Islamist terrorist'. He has been an enabler of Islamist terrorism. He hurriedly and unwisely withdrew troops from Iraq because he couldn't see himself as the colonial oppressor of Muslims. This allowed ISIS to fill the power vacuum.
He allowed the carnage to develop in Syria because he didn't want to antagonize the Iranians. Those are hollow words he says at the
Dallas memorial.


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> you're right. Bannon (now in Trump's cabinet) was in charge of Breitbart


A small point, but Bannon is not in the cabinet. His position of chief strategist does not require Senate confirmation.


----------



## new dog

You can present 100 percent real news and deliver it any way you want. The mainstream especially CNN make sure the people they want to be criticized get nailed using the real news they find. With the real news they will also go one step further and bring on panels to continue to blast the people that are against the left. On the people they don't want criticized like Hillary or the left they try to minimize the release of damaging news or not to show it at all. So who needs fake news when you can twist the real news and push it in the direction you wish it to go.

Anyone can see this and if CNN did this same effort against the left then everyone on the left would suddenly see it.


----------



## lonewolf :)

It was better years ago when news came on every night for something like a half hour the reporter reporting the news no time to give opinions. CNN 23.5 - 24 hours opinions, .5 - 1 hour news. Independent thinking has been a good friend to man  dependent thinking not so much  we don't need the reporters doing the thinking for us


----------



## sags

Critical thinking and an absence of facts don't work well together.

Without in-depth reporting all you would get is the headlines and never know the 5 W's.......who, what, when, where, and why of the news.

None of the alt media do any reporting. 

They copy information from legitimate news sources, massage the words to fit their ideology and call it news.

If a person gets all their news from alt right sources they can never discuss a topic in depth.


----------



## sags

As reported in the main stream media.........Trump is up to 40% approval ratings on economic issues.

That is higher than Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Bill Clinton, or Barack Obama were at the beginning of their administrations.

Stock markets are rallying........the US markets hitting all time highs. Money is flowing out of government bonds and into equities.

Why........because the markets view Trump as a tax cutter who will spend freely, which will boost the economy.

Trump will boost the economy the same way that Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Obama and Harper did........and Obama and Trudeau are doing.

Spend and put the tab on the national debt for future generations to pay.

The people approve.......and happy days are just around the corner.


----------



## twa2w

humble_pie said:


> did anyone say otherwise .each:
> 
> it did not matter where Bush was when word first came that 2 planes with unknown pilots were flying towards the world trade towers. He was flown immediately to the NORAD bunker in Cheyenne Mountain in colorado. This is the US military command centre.
> 
> very quickly, during the early afternoon, Bush was flown back to washington to resume leadership in full public view.
> 
> .


Uh no
You need to double check your facts.
First planes hit arount 8:45.
Bush addressed the press at 9:31 from Sarasota.
1St collapse at about 10:30
Bush then addresses the public from an air base in Louisianna.at about 1:00 PM.

You can look up the rest.


----------



## wraphter

> it did not matter where Bush was when word first came that 2 planes with unknown pilots were flying towards the world trade towers


Bush was informed after the second plane hit the tower, not while the two planes with unknown pilots were flying towards the towers.



> And then — it seems like a nanosecond later — that staffer came to me and said, “Oh my gosh” — he used another word — and said another plane hit the other tower at the World Trade Center. And I knew that it was not an accident, and it couldn’t have been a coincidence.
> My mind focused on the al-Qaida network, because I knew that they had attacked the World Trade Center before. I don’t know why I thought that but I did and I just presumed that it was an Osama bin Laden or and al-Qaida attack, and I knew I had to tell the president.
> I wrestled with that. You know, one of the tough jobs for the chief of staff is to try to decide what to tell the president needs to know. This was relatively easy — yes, the president needs to know. But what do I tell him?
> I made the decision that I would pass on two facts, make one editorial comment and do nothing to invite a question or start a dialogue.
> I opened the door to the classroom and the press pool was gathered at the back of the classroom. I walked up to the president and leaned over and whispered into his right ear: “A second plane” — I was very very succinct, very purposeful with my diction — “A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack.” And I stood back from the president so that he couldn’t ask me a question and then I inched my way back to the door. I was all business. I was all business.


----------



## olivaw

^Someone makes a comment. Somebody else decides to disagree with a trivial inaccuracy while ignoring the larger truth of it. 

I see it far more frequently on this forum than others. Why is that?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> ^Someone makes a comment. Somebody else decides to disagree with a trivial inaccuracy while ignoring the larger truth of it.
> 
> I see it far more frequently on this forum than others. Why is that?


Maybe just maybe it is because you are doing that more than anybody-EXAMPLE-you post Alexa rankings to prove MSM is strong on the internet-Alexa rankings do not count any subdomain views-so if Alex Jones gets a million views today on YOUTUBE that is just counted as YOUTUBE views-you are certainly aware of this but just try to twist facts to fit your narrative.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> You can't blame Trump for the actions of his supporters.
> 
> But it is noteworthy that he didn't tweet a single objection to the "Hail Trump" neo-nazis.
> 
> He chose instead to take offence on twitter about the cast of Hamilton for saying:


Here it is, hot off the griddle. This afternoon Trump took a meeting with the New York Times. Their Mike Grynbaum is live tweeting the conversation.

Mike Grynbaum (NYT executive editor)
✔
@grynbaum

Dean Baquet asks if Trump feels like he did things to energize the alt-right movement. “I don’t think so, Dean,” Trump replies.
1:11 PM - 22 Nov 2016 

Trump: “I don’t want to energize the group, and I disavow the group.” (1/2)
1:12 PM - 22 Nov 2016 

Trump: "It’s not a group I want to energize, and if they are energized, I want to look into it and find out why.” (2/2)
1:12 PM - 22 Nov 2016

From Maggie Haberman

On Bannon:"If I thought he was a racist or alt-right or any of the things, the terms we could use, I wouldn't even think about hiring him."
1:34 PM - 22 Nov 2016 

Trump on Bannon: "I think it's very hard on him. I think he's having a hard time with it. Because it's not him."
1:36 PM - 22 Nov 2016

From Julie Davis

Asked point-blank about Nazi conference in DC over wknd: @realDonaldTrump tells @nytimes "of course" "I disavow and condemn them"
1:45 PM - 22 Nov 2016 · Manhattan, NY 

This is not the first time Trump has disavowed the right wing extremists. He has done nothing but disavow them and refuse their support since the question came up. But since it is reported by the New York Times, maybe you will believe it this time.


----------



## mordko

> Maybe just maybe it is because you are doing that more than anybody-EXAMPLE-you post Alexa rankings to prove MSM is strong on the internet-Alexa rankings do not count any subdomain views-so if Alex Jones gets a million views today on YOUTUBE that is just counted as YOUTUBE views-you are certainly aware of this but just try to twist facts to fit your narrative.


^ OK, let's suppose its true. What does that change? Alex Jone is still a vile, racist, antisemitic conspiracy theorist. It is not unusual for these types to have a large following among the dumbos.


----------



## lonewolf :)

sags said:


> As reported in the main stream media.........Trump is up to 40% approval ratings on economic issues.
> 
> That is higher than Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Bill Clinton, or Barack Obama were at the beginning of their administrations.
> 
> Stock markets are rallying........the US markets hitting all time highs. Money is flowing out of government bonds and into equities.
> 
> Why........because the markets view Trump as a tax cutter who will spend freely, which will boost the economy.
> 
> Trump will boost the economy the same way that Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Obama and Harper did........and Obama and Trudeau are doing.
> 
> Spend and put the tab on the national debt for future generations to pay.
> 
> The people approve.......and happy days are just around the corner.


 The turn in bonds to pay higher interest was before Trump got elected. The trend from 09 higher in stocks was still in place before Trump got elected. There were a few cycles bottoming going into election. Price vibrates higher/lower regardless who is elected. One could debate government bonds vibrate lower when confidence in government vibrates lower, stocks vibrate higher when confidence in private sector vibrates higher.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> ^Someone makes a comment. Somebody else decides to disagree with a trivial inaccuracy while ignoring the larger truth of it.
> 
> I see it far more frequently on this forum than others. Why is that?


Now we are in to meta-comments,that is comments about comments. A certain poster has a habit of making inaccurate statements. She said :

the Clinton foundation was not being investigated--not true


there was no talk of jail for Petraeus -----not true

Israel didn't develop the Iron Dome------not true

Jewish scientists in Europe could have easily gone to Israel ---not true ,the British severely limited Jewish immigration 
to Palestine before and during WWII . 

And now Bush was informed of the two planes hitting the World Trade Towers before they actually hit the towers.

So you see there is a cumulative effect of these misstatements that is interfering with the free exchange of ideas .

This is not a trivial problem.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Maybe just maybe it is because you are doing that more than anybody-EXAMPLE-you post Alexa rankings to prove MSM is strong on the internet-Alexa rankings do not count any subdomain views-so if Alex Jones gets a million views today on YOUTUBE that is just counted as YOUTUBE views-you are certainly aware of this but just try to twist facts to fit your narrative.


He he, I was gonna delete the comment about trivia. Decided it wasn't constructive but you already replied. I'm not sure how you related it to Alexa but OK. 

The Alexa rankings for the United States has CNN at 15th. It translates to between 80 and 90 million unique visitors per month. CNN also has about a million viewers per prime time show (based on last Thurs published stats).

Alex Jones youtube channel lists video views. Most video views are in the tens of thousands. The channel is not even in the same league as the real media. 

It was fun to look at Alex Jones more popular videos though - about the Clintons. 
- Woman claims Hillary Clinton sexually abused her
- Clinton insiders reveal Clinton's lesbian sexcapades
- Hillary caught on tape birthing alien life form
- Child rape victim speaks out against Hillary Clinton
- The truth about the Clinton pedophile ring exposed. 

You don't actually believe this stuff, right?


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Here it is, hot off the griddle. This afternoon Trump took a meeting with the New York Times. Their Mike Grynbaum is live tweeting the conversation.
> 
> Mike Grynbaum (NYT executive editor)
> ✔
> @grynbaum
> 
> Dean Baquet asks if Trump feels like he did things to energize the alt-right movement. “I don’t think so, Dean,” Trump replies.
> 1:11 PM - 22 Nov 2016
> 
> Trump: “I don’t want to energize the group, and I disavow the group.” (1/2)
> 1:12 PM - 22 Nov 2016
> 
> Trump: "It’s not a group I want to energize, and if they are energized, I want to look into it and find out why.” (2/2)
> 1:12 PM - 22 Nov 2016
> 
> From Maggie Haberman
> 
> On Bannon:"If I thought he was a racist or alt-right or any of the things, the terms we could use, I wouldn't even think about hiring him."
> 1:34 PM - 22 Nov 2016
> 
> Trump on Bannon: "I think it's very hard on him. I think he's having a hard time with it. Because it's not him."
> 1:36 PM - 22 Nov 2016
> 
> From Julie Davis
> 
> Asked point-blank about Nazi conference in DC over wknd: @realDonaldTrump tells @nytimes "of course" "I disavow and condemn them"
> 1:45 PM - 22 Nov 2016 · Manhattan, NY
> 
> This is not the first time Trump has disavowed the right wing extremists. He has done nothing but disavow them and refuse their support since the question came up. But since it is reported by the New York Times, maybe you will believe it this time.


Good to see. The best disavowal yet. Perhaps he should tweet it. Trump's neo-nazi worshippers probably don't read the New York Times because he tells them not to.


----------



## mordko

wraphter said:


> Now we are in to meta-comments,that is comments about comments. A certain poster has a habit of making inaccurate statements. She said :
> 
> the Clinton foundation was not being investigated--not true
> 
> 
> there was no talk of jail for Petraeus -----not true
> 
> Israel didn't develop the Iron Dome------not true
> 
> Jewish scientists in Europe could have easily gone to Israel ---not true ,the British severely limited Jewish immigration
> to Palestine before and during WWII .
> 
> And now Bush was informed of the two planes hitting the World Trade Towers before they actually hit the towers.
> 
> So you see there is a cumulative effect of these misstatements that is interfering with the free exchange of ideas .
> 
> This is not a trivial problem.


Also, from the same source:

- Israel bombs the same site twice to murder all the rescuers - not true.
- Index-based ETFs don't hold shares; they hold options and swaps instead - not true.
- US estate tax applies to Canadians even if they are worth less than ~$5M - not true.

And on and on.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> A certain poster has a habit of making inaccurate statements. She said :


This is a casual forum, we all post inaccuracies - faulty recollection, typing errors, etc. That certain poster has been on the forum for years. Her accuracy rate is high.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Good to see. The best disavowal yet. Perhaps he should tweet it. Trump's neo-nazi worshippers probably don't read the New York Times because he tells them not to.


The NY Times no longer has any credibility left to sell to intelligent persons. It is just a pathetic joke at this point.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> The NY Times no longer has any credibility left to sell to intelligent persons. It is just a pathetic joke at this point.


Yet Donald Trump agreed to be interviewed by them. 

Trump may claim to hate the media but he cares deeply about what highly respected American news organizations like the New York Times and CNN report about him.


----------



## james4beach

mordko said:


> US does not have the highest incarceration rate in the WORLD, nor is it quite 1 in every 100 adults but it's high. And yes, immigrants have a lot to do with it. Around 25% of incarcerated people happen to be foreigners, mostly from Mexico. Take them off the list and US would be mid-pack.


It could be we're using the term immigrant differently. By immigrant I mean: someone who has followed the proper immigration process and is legally an immigrant.

Then last studies I looked at showed that crime rates among (legitimate) immigrants were lower than the general population, in the US. That is, if you look at the entire group of immigrants, the rate of criminality within that group is lower than the rate of criminality in the country.

I'm not clear on what the numbers are if you look at non-legitimate immigrants / illegal immigrants / US visitors overstaying the legal stay. If someone has some statistics from a reliable source, I'd love to see. And yes I know that Breitbart has headlines about high rates of crime among immigrants; that's their bread & butter.


----------



## mordko

"According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 77.6% of Federal inmates are U.S. citizens (as of April 2016). 15.2% are citizens of Mexico, and the next three countries—Colombia, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic, contribute less than 1% each. 4.9% have other or unknown citizenship. The Bureau did not state how many had come to the U.S. legally".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate


----------



## olivaw

Not to get lost in side issues but ....

According to wiki, the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world at 716 per 100,000. Crime has been declining but incarceration rates continue to climb. 



> According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 77.6% of Federal inmates are U.S. citizens (as of April 2016). 15.2% are citizens of Mexico, and the next three countries—Colombia, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic, contribute less than 1% each. 4.9% have other or unknown citizenship.


Canada is 85 per 100,000. 20% of our population is foreign born. 
US is 716 per 100,000. 13.3% of the US population is foreign born.

To me, this suggests that immigration does not drive incarceration. Poverty and policy are far more important.

ETA: Oops, mordko beat me to the punch with the wiki quote, but I did add additional context.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Yet Donald Trump agreed to be interviewed by them.
> 
> Trump may claim to hate the media but he cares deeply about what highly respected American news organizations like the New York Times and CNN report about him.


 Largely because of this presidential campaign coverage and Wikileaks CNN isn't considered a "respected" news organization by anyone, not even CNN employees.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Not to get lost in side issues but ....
> 
> According to wiki, the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world at 716 per 100,000. Crime has been declining but incarceration rates continue to climb.
> 
> 
> 
> Canada is 85 per 100,000. 20% of our population is foreign born.
> US is 716 per 100,000. 13.3% of the US population is foreign born.
> 
> To me, this suggests that immigration does not drive incarceration. Poverty and policy are far more important.
> 
> ETA: Oops, mordko beat me to the punch with the wiki quote, but I did add additional context.


Given that almost a quarter of incarcerated are non-US citizens and an unknown percentage of the rest are immigrants, it is hard to argue that immigration has nothing to do with it. Add to this that most are in prison for drugs and guess who brings them into the US... 

Seychelles have the highest incarceration rate (799 per 100 thousand); then you have unknown rates in lovely places like N Korea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

Part of the reason that US has such high incarceration rates is the length of sentences and the "three strikes out" laws. Such laws do lower crime rates. Also their laws on drugs... 

Canadian poverty rates are about the same as in the US (both comparatively high along with Japan, which hardly has any crime).

Canada does not have border with the region where drugs are manufactured, so the comparison isn't quite fair.


----------



## agent99

Noticed on CNN that Trump may be backtracking a bit on his views on made made climate change.

Just for fun, I looked up the elevation of his Florida street address on this site:
http://veloroutes.org/elevation/?location=1100+South+Ocean+Boulevard,+palm+beach,+fla&units=e

Elevation for 1100 South Ocean Boulevard, palm beach, fla is 2 feet (Presumably above high tide mark)

Florida in general has such a problem. This Miami Herald article talks about it.


----------



## mordko

But I agree that policy plays a role. Most provinces in Canada fund abortions, while in the US it's quite rare. This has a major impact on higher incarceration rates in the US.


----------



## olivaw

Above, Rusty linked to the New York Times' live tweet: http://www.nytimes.com/live/trump-at-the-new-york-times-the-tweets/

Trump didn't really flesh out his plans but he appears to have stepped back from his more controversial positions. 

- Praised President Obama, in particular his efforts to ensure a smooth and peaceful transition
- Wants to make peace between Palestinians and Israelis. Believes Jared Kushner can do it. 
- Doesn't want US to be in the nation building business. 
- Admits to reading the New York Times. Claims to have great respect for it.
- Condemned "Hail Trump" neo-Nazis
- Would not have hired Bannon if he believed he was a racist
- Believes prosecuting Clintons would be very divisive. When pressed, said he does not favour it. 
- Said he is "open" to withdrawing from climate accord but no specifics
- Brushed off concerns about conflict of interest because the president is exempted from conflict laws*
- Considering James Mattis for DOD. Mattis opposes waterboarding. 
- Trump spoke in his inside voice.  

*The president and VP are not subject to conflict laws but they are subject to other laws. Most lawyers would argue that Trump should sell his real estate assets before taking the oath of office.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> Given that almost a quarter of incarcerated are non-US citizens and an unknown percentage of the rest are immigrants, it is hard to argue that immigration has nothing to do with it. Add to this that most are in prison for drugs and guess who brings them into the US...
> 
> Seychelles have the highest incarceration rate (799 per 100 thousand); then you have unknown rates in lovely places like N Korea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
> 
> Part of the reason that US has such high incarceration rates is the length of sentences and the "three strikes out" laws. Such laws do lower crime rates. Also their laws on drugs...
> 
> Canadian poverty rates are about the same as in the US (both comparatively high along with Japan, which hardly has any crime).
> 
> Canada does not have border with the region where drugs are manufactured, so the comparison isn't quite fair.


I intentionally left the race based incarceration rate out because causality is so difficult to determine. Minority populations tend to be more impoverished that the majority (white) population in the US and Canada so they are more like to be involved in crime. They lack the resources to pay for a good defence so they are more likely to be convicted. It is alleged (though not proven) that courts tend to show leniency towards whites in both countries, regardless of economic status. 

In Canada we disproportionately incarcerate Aboriginals and blacks. 

The image below illustrates incarceration rates in different countries. It doesn't tell us much new but it is an interesting visualization of how far out of whack the United States is to the rest of the world.


----------



## mordko

Yes, in Canada we incarcerate Aboriginals purely because they can't get good defence and because the courts are unfair. We also make them rape their own daughters.


----------



## andrewf

^?


----------



## sags

Good lawyers is the reason rich people don't go to prison and poor people do.

Even when rich people go to prison they are sent to country club prisons.

There is an assumption that rich people "just made a mistake" while poor people are "inherently evil".

Most people get ripped off by the sharp dressed dude with the fancy car........because that is what they trust.

Good luck getting a duty counsel or legal aid lawyer who has ever been to trial court. They are pretty much 'plea bargain" lawyers.

Good trial lawyers are in big demand........by rich people and corporations.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> ^?


Merely anticipating what the inquiry is going to come up with: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/sexual...o-murdered-missing-indigenous-women-1.3169212

There is this implicit assumption on the part of the liberals that personal responsibility does not apply because aboriginals/whoever are not fully adult and individuals belonging to these groups can't be held responsible for their actions. Something or someone else has to be blamed.

So they go and count the number of prisoners by race, which is a meaningless notion to start with, and then find some other poor bugger to blame.


----------



## olivaw

Double posted from the other thread: The full transcript of the New York Times interview with President-elect Trump is up: 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/us/politics/trump-new-york-times-interview-transcript.html


----------



## sags

Trump seems to be approaching many issues with an open mind, which kind of refutes much of his rhetoric on the campaign trail.

It could turn out that liberals will be happier with Trump than conservatives.

One thing appears certain. He isn't going to keep some of his campaign pledges exactly has he had stated.

Some right wing media are already upset about that.

It is an interesting dynamic.........unprecedented really.

Trump was a long time liberal and supported Democrats. He ran for the Republican ticket only because he saw an opening.

The Republican establishment rebuffed him and he won without them.

Now the Republicans want him to support their ideology, and Trump is saying.......maybe, maybe not......it depends.

Trump appears more liberal than many Republicans, doesn't owe them anything and his voters don't care if either party is unhappy.

A $1 Trillion dollar infrastructure spend is about as liberal as it gets and is a conservative nightmare proposal.

Trump looks like an "independent" who just borrowed the Republican ticket for awhile.

We shall see if Trump can pull it off.........a big chunk of liberal policy here, a chunk of conservative policy there.............


----------



## sags

Trump also made a pretty astute observation about the electoral college system.

He didn't like it before the election but thinks it is "genius" now, because it forces candidates to visit and win more than a few heavily populated states. It is more representative of the citizens across the US.

Trump ran his campaign to win the electoral vote, not the popular vote.

Trump is right that trying to win the popular vote would be a totally different campaign, which only involve 3 or 4 states.

Hillary Clinton made a crucial error in her campaign. She focused on the popular vote instead of the electoral college votes.

She won the popular vote by more than 2 million votes and lost the election.

Credit where credit is due.......Trump mangled the Republican primary field and made it look easy, and then he beat the much vaunted Democrat "machine" to easily win the election. Betting on those results in Las Vegas would have made a person rich.

If I recall the odds at one time were 99-1 in favor of Clinton. A $10,000 bet would have won a cool $990,000.

Pretty impressive in hindsight.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Hillary Clinton made a crucial error in her campaign. She focused on the popular vote instead of the electoral college votes.


The irony of not having listened to Hillary's husband, a popular former President no less. Reposting - http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/us/politics/hillary-clinton-campaign.html


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Trump seems to be approaching many issues with an open mind, which kind of refutes much of his rhetoric on the campaign trail.
> 
> It could turn out that liberals will be happier with Trump than conservatives.
> 
> One thing appears certain. He isn't going to keep some of his campaign pledges exactly has he had stated.
> 
> Some right wing media are already upset about that.
> 
> It is an interesting dynamic.........unprecedented really.
> 
> Trump was a long time liberal and supported Democrats. He ran for the Republican ticket only because he saw an opening.
> 
> The Republican establishment rebuffed him and he won without them.
> 
> Now the Republicans want him to support their ideology, and Trump is saying.......maybe, maybe not......it depends.
> 
> Trump appears more liberal than many Republicans, doesn't owe them anything and his voters don't care if either party is unhappy.
> 
> A $1 Trillion dollar infrastructure spend is about as liberal as it gets and is a conservative nightmare proposal.
> 
> Trump looks like an "independent" who just borrowed the Republican ticket for awhile.
> 
> We shall see if Trump can pull it off.........a big chunk of liberal policy here, a chunk of conservative policy there.............


Doesn't really line up with the previous analysis of Donald Trump as a buffoon,oaf, low IQ fool-someone roughly intellectually similar to Boy Trudeau. Trump's father carried him for decades then Trump's children carried him the rest of the way (according to Moronko)-the latest story is that Trump is quite clever yet hangs with racists (coming from the same Moronko that believes all aboriginals are child rapists).


----------



## mordko

^ that is, of course, 100% bs. Trump isn't "clever" and I do not believe that "aboriginals are rapists". Nor did I say anything of the kind.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Doesn't really line up with the previous analysis of Donald Trump as a buffoon,oaf, low IQ fool-someone roughly intellectually similar to Boy Trudeau. Trump's father carried him for decades then Trump's children carried him the rest of the way (according to Moronko)-the latest story is that Trump is quite clever yet hangs with racists (coming from the same Moronko that believes all aboriginals are child rapists).


Politics works that way. The election winner transforms into a genius in the public eye. 

FWIW, many still believe that Trump lacks the disposition and knowledge to be president.


----------



## Argonaut

sags said:


> Credit where credit is due.......Trump mangled the Republican primary field and made it look easy, and then he beat the much vaunted Democrat "machine" to easily win the election. Betting on those results in Las Vegas would have made a person rich.
> 
> If I recall the odds at one time were 99-1 in favor of Clinton. A $10,000 bet would have won a cool $990,000.
> 
> Pretty impressive in hindsight.


As an actual gambler on the election, I can correct this. Las Vegas doesn't do political betting, but I can understand using "Las Vegas" as a general term for gambling.

Odds were never that long for Trump. I bet a few different times throughout the year, and got anywhere from 3 to 4 times my money when all was said and done. A bet for Clinton would have got anywhere from 1.3 to 1.5 times the bet in the event of her winning, from what I saw. I use decimal odds because I think they are the easiest to understand. It was very fun to watch the gambling sites during the election. I actually remember the very moment that the odds became Even for both candidates, a 50/50 tossup. Was when the Florida results were coming in.

I certainly didn't become rich, but I paid for a couple months of expenses. Not too bad.


----------



## sags

It was a good first step for Trump to open up with the press, but time and actions will tell.

There is another view of the interview, that Trump doesn't appear to fully understand the complexity of some of the problems. 

He was in favor of waterboarding and after one discussion with a General he is considering for nomination, he has changed his mind apparently.

He has also been talking to President Obama several times and is praising him for providing guidance. That tidbit won't be appreciated by right wing Republicans.

If Trump is seeking guidance from Romney, Obama and others..........it is a good sign.

Hopefully Trump will leave ideology and rhetoric out of the decisions he makes.


----------



## new dog

I don't want to see Romney on the inside. I would rather see Carson, Ron and Rand Paul instead amongst others.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Trump also made a pretty astute observation about the electoral college system.
> 
> He didn't like it before the election but thinks it is "genius" now, because it forces candidates to visit and win more than a few heavily populated states. It is more representative of the citizens across the US.
> 
> Trump ran his campaign to win the electoral vote, not the popular vote.
> 
> Trump is right that trying to win the popular vote would be a totally different campaign, which only involve 3 or 4 states.
> 
> Hillary Clinton made a crucial error in her campaign. She focused on the popular vote instead of the electoral college votes.
> 
> She won the popular vote by more than 2 million votes and lost the election.
> 
> Credit where credit is due.......Trump mangled the Republican primary field and made it look easy, and then he beat the much vaunted Democrat "machine" to easily win the election. Betting on those results in Las Vegas would have made a person rich.
> 
> If I recall the odds at one time were 99-1 in favor of Clinton. A $10,000 bet would have won a cool $990,000.
> 
> Pretty impressive in hindsight.


This is pure BS. No candidate would try to win the popular vote by campaigning in just the most populist states, because it is hopeless to expect to win 100% of the vote in 50% of the population. With the electoral college, you only need to campaign enough in your own safe states to get them into your column, and focus on the small handful of states in play that will decide the result. California and New York are taken for granted by Democrats and abandoned by Republicans as hopeless. Same for Texas and Mississippi for the reverse.

Basically everything you just said is almost perfectly wrong.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Another angle on the Trump administration from Scott 'Dilbert' Adams. You won't see Trump or his detractors the same after reading this.

Imagine you are one of the anti-Trump folks who believe we just elected a racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-semitic, science-denying dictator. Let’s say that’s the movie playing in your mind. That’s some scary stuff.

Now imagine watching the news as Trump reveals in slow-motion that he’s flexible and pragmatic on just about everything. Thomas Friedman at the New York Times just reported that Trump is – as of yesterday anyway – open-minded about climate-change science, and Trump is no longer in favor of waterboarding terror suspects. 

You also watched Trump move to the middle on his immigration policies. And you watched as Trump said he plans to keep the good parts of Obamacare instead of jettisoning it whole.

And you saw Trump say he wasn’t interested in prosecuting Clinton. Her supporters were worried that Trump was going to go full-dictator and jail his adversaries. That won’t happen, apparently.

And Trump also told the New York Times that they don’t need to worry about changes in libel laws. That means it will not become easier for people such as Trump to sue them out of business. That was one of the possibilities that scared people.

The areas in which Trump hasn’t budged in his opinion seem to be where states’ rights are involved. Trump would leave it to the courts and to the states to decide on abortion, legal marijuana, and gay marriage. You might not like the fact that Trump wants the federal government to stay out of those decisions, but it isn’t very dictator-like to leave big decisions to the states.

As Trump continues to demonstrate that he was never the incompetent monster his critics believed him to be, the critics will face an identity crisis. They either have to accept that they understand almost nothing about how the world works – because they got everything wrong about Trump – or they need to double-down on their current hallucination. Most of his critics will double-down. That’s how normal brains work.

And that brings us to our current situation. As Trump continues to defy all predictions from his critics, the critics need to maintain their self-images as the smart ones who saw this new Hitler coming. And that means you will see hallucinations like you have never seen. It will be epic.

The reason this will be so fun to watch is that we rarely get to see a situation in which the facts so vigorously violate a hallucination. Before Trump won the presidency everyone was free to imagine the future they expected. But as Trump continues to do one reasonable thing after another, his critics have a tough choice. They can either…

1. Reinterpret their self-images from wise to clueless.

or…

2. Generate an even stronger hallucination. (Cognitive dissonance.)

If Trump’s critics take the second option – and most of them will – it means you will see a lot of pretzel-logic of the type that is necessary hold onto the illusion that Trump is still a monster despite continuing evidence to the contrary. 

Prediction: Expect the anti-Trump press to continue asking Trump surrogates this question: “Why do you think the KKK and white nationalists support Trump?”

The question makes sense if you don’t think about it for too long. But once you realize that Trump has repeatedly and publicly disavowed those groups, you have to hallucinate extra-hard to make the racist narrative work. That’s where the “top-secret-racist-dog-whistle” comes in. You need a theory to explain why the supposed Racist-in-Chief keeps disavowing racists. How does that make any sense?

This is where cognitive dissonance comes in. In order to explain Trump’s disavowal of White Nationalists and the KKK while holding onto the hallucination that Trump is a dangerous monster, you have to hallucinate that he is playing a clever game of pretending to be against racists while secretly planning to purge the earth of all non-orange people. 

That feels unlikely to me. I think Trump just wants to do a good job for the country, thereby bringing money and glory to his family name. And he won’t get any of that by being a racist monster. He only gets that happy ending by being pragmatic and flexible, exactly as we observe him now to be.

I think the total number of KKK members is a few thousand people sprinkled across the country. But what matters more than the absolute number is the trend. The group once numbered over a million. Now they are a few thousand. Did Trump’s election cause a spike in recruitment that will have a lasting impact on the long term trend toward zero membership? I doubt it. But in any case, you have to wonder why the press isn’t reporting KKK membership trends. Every other part of the story is meaningless without that one piece of data.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Doesn't really line up with the previous analysis of Donald Trump as a buffoon,oaf, low IQ fool-someone roughly intellectually similar to Boy Trudeau. Trump's father carried him for decades then Trump's children carried him the rest of the way (according to Moronko)-the latest story is that Trump is quite clever yet hangs with racists (coming from the same Moronko that believes all aboriginals are child rapists).


Boy Trudeau, the guy who lead the #3 party that was on its way out and crushed the much smarter, better tacticians leading the CPC and NDP?


----------



## sags

Mitt Romney, Nikki Haley.......and some others, are stirring up some feathers in the old Republican nest.


----------



## andrewf

As much as Scott Adams fawns over Trump, he never seems to acknowledge that one thing we can certainly say about Trump is that he is a liar to the core. He lied to the GOP to get the nomination. He lied to the electorate to eke out the election. Now he's most likely lying about what he will do. Why should anyone believe anything he says? The only responsible thing to do is to watch him like a hawk and be ready to pounce on any misdeed or misstep.

The worst thing Scott Adams is accusing people of is taking Donald Trump at his own word and being worried. Foolish liberals for not merely concluding Trump is a consummate liar with totally unpredictable policy positions. Not that that is necessarily much more comforting.


----------



## sags

Not disagreeing with your scenario Rusty. The question is if Trump can "sell" all the reversals in policies to his supporters.

I say........carry on and jettison the nonsense policies Donald, but I wouldn't have been one of his supporters.

They might feel differently about it than I do.

On the other hand, a lot of the rust belt voters didn't consider those pledges serious anyways and aren't going to be disappointed if Trump drops them. 

I am not sure it is possible to walk the sensible fine line in the middle anymore, without getting bogged down by the system.

This surely was one heck of a convoluted election.


----------



## andrewf

Scott Adams seems to be deluding himself as much as he accuses others of. Trump 100% verifiably refused to denounce racists, especially David Duke, during the election. How can one not interpret that as a wink wink, nudge nudge to a useful if small minority of racists/white nationalists. They certainly seem to think Trump is on their side, despite Trump's protestations to the contrary in the interim.


----------



## sags

There was an interesting piece on CNN about living in Trump Towers these days.

There are more than 200 other condos/apartments in use by tenants/owners.

They have their own security entrance they must pass through every time they go in. They say it is a smooth operation.

One tidbit...........none of the doors in Trump Towers have numbers on them. Anyone in the building is expected to know where they live.

I expect takeout delivery from Dominos Pizza isn't a big thing in Trump Towers.


----------



## mordko

Trump is walking back everything he said during the campaign a lot faster than I imagined would be possible. Every single day we are hearing about a new turnaround. 

Him being a liar is a hidden blessing. All will be well as long as he does the exact opposite of what he blabbered about.

P.S. Nikki Haley for UN Ambassador = awesome. Betsy DeVos for education = great. Michael Flynn - seems like a good guy. Preibus - seems OK. So far Bannon is the only dodgy one.


----------



## olivaw

I wouldn't call Michael Flynn a "good guy".


----------



## new dog

Mordko Trump had to do a lot of stick handling to win the election so it all makes sense. If he didn't he wouldn't be here right now.


----------



## twa2w

sags said:


> There was an interesting piece on CNN about living in Trump Towers these days.
> 
> There are more than 200 other condos/apartments in use by tenants/owners.
> 
> They have their own security entrance they must pass through every time they go in. They say it is a smooth operation.
> 
> One tidbit...........none of the doors in Trump Towers have numbers on them. Anyone in the building is expected to know where they live.
> 
> I expect takeout delivery from Dominos Pizza isn't a big thing in Trump Towers.


There have been several news clips of pizza being delivered to the Trump tower. Just like any high security building there are procedures in place for deliveries, visitors etc.


----------



## Eclectic12

^^^^

Possibly ... but then again, several co-workers thought that having a manned desk, flash card restricted elevators and flash card restricted access to floors made it safe. It didn't stop a guy from getting onto the floor over lunch, picking up three laptops and walking out. The desk person tried to chase the thief but was ineffective.

There is security and then there is security.


Cheers

*PS*

The first loss of laptops was where the laptops were locked in an executive's office. Something like twenty six of them where taken out over the locked office door. It seems that no one bothered to check if the office walls extended to the roof or stopped at the drop ceiling before deciding the office was secure. :biggrin:


----------



## s123

Dr. Ron Paul has a realistic opinion.
He knows very well how the systems work so his honest opinions are a valuable to Trump team.

We can educate ourselves in same time.
Public needs learning the real issues & roots of causing first.
Can you fix your car without knowing the real cause?

While figuring out the difficult issues that we can still work on toward the better system individually which I mentioned in the past.
The time is of the essence.
The current systems are supporting to divide, conflicts, thoughtless, harmful to health physically & mentally etc..

If you are realized that we / all citizens are the part of this systems, 
so do opposite on above mentioned will be the key to create other kind of systems.

- Ron Paul ~ Will Trump Drain The Swamp?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XTzgUGUIs

- Myth-Busters: Is Inflation On The Doorstep?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpKcRY4VJ78


----------



## humble_pie

*Charles M. Blow says No*

.

the journalist - NY Times op-ed editor, african-american, small "l" liberal, father of 3, bisexual - says he "proudly and happily" did not attend the infamous NY Times/Trump conference.

_" The very idea of sitting across the table from a demagogue who preyed on racial, ethnic and religious hostilities and treating him with decorum and social grace fills me with disgust, to the point of overflowing. Let me tell you here where I stand on your 'I hope we can all get along' plea: Never."
_
donald trump is " an aberration and abomination," writes blow.

_" I don't believe you care much at all about this country or your party or the American people. I believe that the only thing you care about is self-aggrandizement and self-enrichment."
_

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/opinion/no-trump-we-cant-just-get-along.html?_r=0


(PS as a middle-of-the-roader, i'm happy to hear so many voices saying Maybe we were Wrong, Give Trump a Chance. I'd be plumb shocked if justin trudeau said anything else.

(but we need a few courageous spines here & there who are stiff enough to stand up & tell the orange wig No)


.


----------



## new dog

The guy is just another idiot. Years of Obama did nothing but increase racism and violence everywhere at home and abroad.

It took courage for people especially minorities to vote for Trump. They rightfully saw Hillary full of the usual BS and are hoping for more. They are not stupid and know Trump is a longshot but better then someone as useless as Hillary.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> (PS as a middle-of-the-roader, i'm happy to hear so many voices saying Maybe we were Wrong, Give Trump a Chance. I'd be plumb shocked if justin trudeau said anything else.
> 
> (but we need a few courageous spines here & there who are stiff enough to stand up & tell the orange wig No


I have mixed feelings about giving Trump any more chances. His campaign was a disgrace, he knows nothing, he mixes business and political interests, he throws temper tantrums, he won't make time for security briefings, he holds grudges for years, he lies constantly and he has no plan. How far does the bar have to be lowered for this guy?


----------



## sags

Trump is walking back what he walked back........again.

His policies appear to depend on the last person he talked to.

Maybe he is a nice guy........maybe not a nice guy, but he appears unprepared and indecisive, which isn't a good sign of things to come.

The Americans would have been better off with the experience and knowledge of Hillary Clinton.


----------



## new dog

Under Clinton we would have had an experienced and knowledgeable person organizing the destruction of America. Instead we have an inexperienced person who may oversee the destruction of America

I should add at least with Trump you won't have an organized invasion of America by refugees and illegal immigrants. You also won't have a TPP that was organized for corporations to take advantage of member countries. So at least after Trump, America can pick itself up again, instead of the situation being hopeless.


----------



## Nelley

Lots of geniuses here said with a mixture of ignorance and arrogance that Donald Trump would be a disaster for the equity markets-now just silence on that one.


----------



## new dog

Also completely wrong on the polls despite massive fraud to keep Donald out. I know it is not confirmed but the system is set up for the fraud that I am almost certain occurred.


----------



## new dog

Good article with Paul Craig Roberts here. Again, I know no one likes Roberts or Zero hedge but he makes some good points.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-24/paul-craig-roberts-asks-what-if-trump-fails


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> The guy is just another idiot. Years of Obama did nothing but increase racism and violence everywhere at home and abroad.




wondering why you would say that charles blow is an idiot? his piece is thoughtful & well-written. He represents most african-americans & hispanics in the US.

alas it looks like you are spewing out yet one more hate-filled insult against against anybody who dares to disagree with yourself. Dogcom the Supreme Krypto Bully Authority on Global Realpolitik.

has it ever occurred to you that, if mcCain & palin had been elected in 2008, america would be in far worse racial shape by now? obama didn't augment or increase any racial problem, he inherited it. As has donald trump. Except under trump the problems in the US of A will likely worsen, if charles blow is any indicator.

dog if anyone is working to increase racial violence on here, it's yourself, with your neverending diatribes against immigrants, refugees, syrians, arabs, moslems, middle easterners & others whom you have recently added to your attack list. 

it doesn't escape notice that you have not posted an original thought in this forum for several years. Every message you post is a rehash of how you believe the establishment has raped the world.

alas there's no love, no grace, no laughter, no kindness, no courage, no humour & no decency in dogcom's bitter black world any more, is there. 


.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Lots of geniuses here said with a mixture of ignorance and arrogance that Donald Trump would be a disaster for the equity markets-now just silence on that one.


Maybe people thought that Trump wasn't lying about cancelling NAFTA, expelling ten million illegal immigrants, etc.. He's basically pursuing Hillary's policy agenda.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> Also completely wrong on the polls despite massive fraud to keep Donald out. I know it is not confirmed but the system is set up for the fraud that I am almost certain occurred.


The only documented fraud I have heard about is a Trump supporter who tried to vote twice. Any evidence?


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Good article with Paul Craig Roberts here. Again, I know no one likes Roberts or Zero hedge but he makes some good points.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-24/paul-craig-roberts-asks-what-if-trump-fails




wow. Never heard of this guy but when i saw that his first words were Media Whores & Presstitutes & how the US is ruled by mysterious dictators called Oligarchs, i thought i better look this up.

here's wikipedia. Says Paul Craig Roberts is 77 years old. His glory years in US gummint were more than 35 years ago. Roberts worked on fixing stagflation, although it was a temporary fix, not a permanent cure, since we have had on-again-off-again stagflation ever since & we are enduring rip-roaring stagflation today.

roberts, it seems, is very far to the ultra-right of right-wing US politicians. He said george dubya bush's supporters were "brownshirts" & he compared them to Hitler's followers, since he's way past them on the political spectrum.

here's a tidbit that might rattle many cmffers:

_" [Roberts is] a supporter of the human rights of the population of the West Bank, he has criticized Israel’s policies and harsh actions against the Palestinians as well as speaking out against what he calls the Israel Lobby's malign influence within US politics and academia."_

all in all i'm left wondering how it could be a beneficial use of time to read paranoia-will-destroi-ya old-timers who might possibly be exhibiting a touch of dementia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts


.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Maybe people thought that Trump wasn't lying about cancelling NAFTA, expelling ten million illegal immigrants, etc.. He's basically pursuing Hillary's policy agenda.


Tesla: In two weeks the Mexican Peso is down 11%-does your EyePhone allow you access to financial sites?


----------



## andrewf

Also, now is a good time to remind people that GDP and market returns are uncorrelated, especially in the short term.


----------



## olivaw

Trump interviews Romney for secretary of state. Trump aide Kellyanne Conway tweets: 


Kellyanne Conway said:


> Receiving deluge of social media & private comms re: Romney Some Trump loyalists warn against Romney as sec of state


It's another Trump reality TV episode. As scripted as they come.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> Trump interviews Romney for secretary of state. Trump aide Kellyanne Conway tweets:
> 
> It's another Trump reality TV episode. As scripted as they come.



something wrong with romney's home basement server system?


----------



## olivaw

*In Scotland, Trump Built a Wall. Then He Sent Residents the Bill.*



> BALMEDIE, Scotland — President-elect Donald J. Trump has already built a wall — not on the border with Mexico, but on the border of his exclusive golf course in northeastern Scotland, blocking the sea view of local residents who refused to sell their homes.
> 
> And then he sent them the bill.





> “If America wants to know what is coming, it should study what happened here. It’s predictive,” said Martin Ford, a local government representative. “I have just seen him do in America, on a grander scale, precisely what he did here. He suckered the people and he suckered the politicians until he got what he wanted, and then he went back on pretty much everything he promised.”


----------



## sags

Sounds like some internal conflict in Trump Tower.

Fist fights may break out at any time............take cover.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> *In Scotland, Trump Built a Wall. Then He Sent Residents the Bill.*



now must be the time to mention that when Nigel Farage phoned trump to pay hommage after the election, trump used the opportunity to lobby him about not installing a sea wind farm within view of his, trump's, private scottish golf course.

when argentina phoned the conversation was about trump's hotels in argentina, no?

just imagine when trump talks to british PM theresa may in london.




> listen up luv, it's Spencer House i want. Home of Charles Spencer, 9th earl & brother of the late diana. You know the place i'm talking about Theresa, so stop thinking i'm about to grab your gray old *****.
> 
> i want Spencer, the bluest of the blue-blooded georgian palaces left standing in this world. Spencer House, where Rothschild financial management is ensconced on a lease that will last until 2102 unless you bust it for me.
> 
> that's right Theresa, you heard me. Throw those rothschilds out. Throw those banker bums onto the street. Just dump em onto the Mall. No i don't want decrepit Buckingham Palace or your tatty old Queen instead. Just gimme royal Spencer House & equally royal Scotland. Because my real name is donald stuart trump.
> 
> theresa if you don't cooperate, new york city is going to gobble up the british pound & dump the dockyards into the thames. Good-bye sweetie.



.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Sounds like some internal conflict in Trump Tower.
> 
> Fist fights may break out at any time............take cover.


The idiocy of the MSM and their sheep is amusing-first Trump is a dictator-now Trump isn't enough of a dictator. Jeez.


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> The idiocy of the MSM and their sheep is amusing-first Trump is a dictator-now Trump isn't enough of a dictator. Jeez.


Trump appears more like a befuddled bystander to the whole process of assuming the duties as President.

Unable to make decisions without consulting with his children, mixing business with governmental duties (which will inevitably lead to major problems), creating significant problems for the Secret Service who are saying they may have to rent an entire floor in Trump Tower at a cost of over $1 Million per year. Public musings and announcements and then re-announcing policy.

In past Presidential nominations, the conversations were quiet and announcements were made to the media.

It is unprecedented to have people running to the media selling themselves as candidates (Rudy Giuliani), or berate potential candidates such as Mitt Romney (Kellyanne Conway and Mike Huckabee) publicly, and to have television hosts (Sean Hannity) warning the President that he had best be careful in his choices.

It is becoming surreal, like the Presidency is a live reality show complete with a revolving cast of characters, alliances forming and rewards handed out for loyalty.

Bizzare........is the only way to describe the situation.


----------



## sags

As President and Mrs. Obama make their final farewells around the country, Americans are already feeling deep pangs of regret at seeing them leave the White House.

The transition from the intellectual, eloquently inclusive Presidency of Obama is being replaced by a three ring circus with Donald Trump as the head ringmaster.

Interesting times ahead. I hope we are able to look back on them a few years down the road without thinking this...........


----------



## olivaw

*Russian propaganda effort helped spread ‘fake news’ during election, experts say*


> *The flood of “fake news” this election season got support from a sophisticated Russian propaganda campaign* that created and spread misleading articles online with the goal of punishing Democrat Hillary Clinton, helping Republican Donald Trump and undermining faith in American democracy, say independent researchers who tracked the operation.





> PropOrNot’s monitoring report, which was provided to The Washington Post in advance of its public release, *identifies more than 200 websites as routine peddlers of Russian propaganda during the election season*, with combined audiences of at least 15 million Americans. On Facebook, PropOrNot estimates that stories planted or promoted by the disinformation campaign were viewed more than 213 million times.
> 
> *Some players in this online echo chamber were knowingly part of the propaganda campaign, the researchers concluded, while others were “useful idiots”* — a term born of the Cold War to describe people or institutions that unknowingly assisted Soviet Union propaganda efforts.


 (Bolding mine)

The frequency of fake news posting and the defence of it on this site speaks to the effectiveness of the effort. Themes were, and are:
- Hillary was ill and/or dishonest
- The US election was rigged by a shadowy organization which dominates world events, the media, and protestors. 

Trump may have been swept to power in a wave of anti-establishment sentiment fed by a coordinated Russian propaganda effort. He was as surprised as everyone else. He nows finds himself a "*befuddled bystander*" in a political role. When pressed, he falls back to what he knows, *promoting his business*.


----------



## new dog

We all know it was Russia's fault. To bad Hillary wasn't there she would sure show them and see how much they like a nuclear exchange.


----------



## olivaw

Russian propaganda is well documented and well understood. The article discusses the addition of social media to Russia's propaganda toolkit. It suggests that Russia originated much of the fake news that was spread during the campaign.

Likewise, it has been confirmed that Russia was behind the DNC and Podesta hacks.

The article does not attempt to determine the effectiveness of Russia's attempt to influence the outcome of the election. Presumably it was not zero. 

European governments are concerned about Russian interference in their democratic processes. The American and Canadian governments should be too.


----------



## new dog

Mordko or Gibor what do you guys make of this story by John Bolton warning about Obama and Israel. 

http://canadafreepress.com/article/...ay-divide-the-land-of-israel-at-the-un-before


----------



## SMK

^ Some clues offered in his last UN speech. Obama, President for the last 8 years, and outwitted by Putin and others, takes credit but little blame for any of his failed policies. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji6pl5Vwrvk - http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.743337


----------



## olivaw

Trevor Noah on Trump's victory. 



> "Donald Trump as a leader is someone I'm familiar with, coming from a third world country.... someone who comes along and promises everything, someone who has conflicts of interests in the world of business, someone who flip flops on his positions.


----------



## Nelley

I guess we can blame Russia for Boy Trudeau's bubbleheaded remarks on Fidel Castro-maybe Boris or Natasha spiked the child's coffee.


----------



## olivaw

Trudeau didn't want to say anything bad about tyrants, it might offend Trump.


----------



## sags

PM Trudeau was offering condolences and speaking directly to the people in Cuba, as they are reported to be feeling sorrow over Castro's passing.

In that context Trudeau's words were appropriate. A good leader knows there is a proper time and place for everything.


----------



## james4beach

Youtube is showing this highly partisan and inflammatory embedded ad, visible tonight. The link takes you to townhall.com which is a conservative news site, according to its own about page, (read this carefully)



> "designed to amplify those conservative voices in America’s political debates . . . uniting the nations’ top conservative radio hosts with their millions of listeners, Townhall.com *breaks down the barriers between news and opinion*"


This is the kind of internet ad they're running, screen shot below. The web site running this is owned by the Salem Media Group, which is a Christian Evangelical broadcaster. Epperson, the founder, has been described by Time magazine as one of the 25 most influential Evangelicals in America.

What you're seeing here is an inflammatory media message, funded by the extreme end of the Christian spectrum, almost into radical territory: the evangelicals. For example when I went to the Christmas tree lighting the other day at the town square, and there were men yelling insanely on loudspeakers about Jesus while wearing shirts saying "Muhammed burns in hell", those are extremist evangelical Christians.

They're dangerous people with extremist views, and here is how they shape public opinion:


----------



## sags

I stumbled across something called "pizzagate" last night.

Yikes.....I don't even know where to begin on that, but it has forced some action by several major social media like Reddit and Twitter who are banning comments and accounts.

America is entering into a dark place. People and businesses are being publicly "accused" by some and it is having serious consequences on lives and businesses.

If this stuff being "reported" is true.....it is truly evil. If it is false it is maliciously evil.

Either way...........it is just really bad for society to be going down this road.

The FBI is now reported by the New York Times to be investigating, but am not sure they are investigating the content or the people creating and spreading the content.

I would think that in Canada, some of this stuff would be criminal under hate laws. Are there no similar laws in the US ?

It seems like people can publicly post anything they want and the only remedy is a civil suit.


----------



## james4beach

sags, the alt-right has been pushing that story for a while about the sex trafficking of children. They've had other insane stories too; I've seen these show up in comments on pro-Trump web sites, for quite a while now.

In my opinion it's closely related to their more broadly dangerous/crazy ideology. The same way that ISIS comes up with crazy propaganda, the white nationalists (aka alt-right) come up with crazy stories to further their agenda too.
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...strike-again?p=1363450&viewfull=1#post1363450

There are other interesting similarities to ISIS. The alt-right seems to appeal to under-educated people or even those with below average intelligence [*]. The kinds of people who may be susceptible to conspiracy theories... I really think what we're seeing here is a radical group that has gotten itself into power.

And just like any radical group, I think the white nationalists are putting out _batshit-crazy_ propaganda as part of their message. They've been saying: Clinton is evil, like she actually has devil horns, and sexually abuses children.


[*] My close friend, who has a brother with an intellectual disability, told me last night that her brother is a big fan of Trump. He follows conspiracy theory web sites, late night talk shows, and other sources of the Alex Jones / Breitbart variety. She thinks that vulnerable people like him get drawn to the Trump/alt-right. Again very similar to how vulnerable people can get recruited by ISIS and muslim extremists.


----------



## james4beach

Everyone - part of why I've gone on a posting spree about this stuff is because I've been watching the insanity unfold around me. I've been on other message forums that have slowly transformed into alt-right. And the things people post in those places have turned _insane_.

It absolutely does have a white nationalist / *********** underpinning... that has been very consistent since the beginning.

*I really think we are witnessing a form of radicalization before our eyes*. You've heard about ISIS radicalization, right? Well look around you, read up on Bannon & crew, and you'll see that all of this is a radicalization movement too.


----------



## james4beach

An interesting article of the radicalization of the alt-right. It also mentions their propensity for wild conspiracy theories... another hallmark of extremist behaviour: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-radical-the-alt-right-has-gotten-this-year/


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Trudeau didn't want to say anything bad about tyrants, it might offend Trump.


Fidel Castro is identical to Donald Trump according to the sheep-and the major threat to our economy is the ALT RIGHT (I know-you had never heard this term until a couple months ago when the MSM started feeding it to the special needs kids like JimmyBeach).


----------



## lonewolf :)

J4B There is nothing you can do to stop the cycles that have to breath. You can only hold your breath so long & if the breath is held the breathing has to make up for it after.

80 year war cycle Revolutionary around 1780, civil war start 1861, world war 2 start 1941 next up 2021. According to Martin Armstrong major war cycles are converging which has not happened for about 300 years.

When every ones fat & happy = peace. 
Lose everything & you lose it, look to blame others throughout history this has happened.

The governments are so far behind the trend they act after the fact. The governments acted after the cycle of inclusion/globalization topped bringing in major number of Refugees on the down side slope. The cycle of exclusion has begun.

Civil war in Europe is pretty much baked in the cake now that so many muslems have entered Europe & want to live by their ways & religion which involves converting others or death if no conversion for many of them. All this taking place as the government wants to rob from their own people to pay them benefits while their countries are falling apart. US & Canada this has happened to a smaller degree so there is more integration. 

When illegal immigrants coming in or are ready in the US & collecting benefits & some wanting to bring in Moslems to live off the system @ a time of decay of the economy is just asking for trouble. It is the absolute worse thing that can be done. Martin Armstrong who has studied history says large immigration always leads to civil war. 

I m happy Trump got elected as Hillary wanted to bring in more immigrants. Better to have a smaller problem then a larger problem. (get votes for party latter date, though now some countries in Europe if they stay on democracy will get Sharia law if the math continues)


----------



## Nelley

lonewolf :) said:


> J4B There is nothing you can do to stop the cycles that have to breath. You can only hold your breath so long & if the breath is held the breathing has to make up for it after.
> 
> 80 year war cycle Revolutionary around 1780, civil war start 1861, world war 2 start 1941 next up 2021. According to Martin Armstrong major war cycles are converging which has not happened for about 300 years.
> 
> When every ones fat & happy = peace.
> Lose everything & you lose it, look to blame others throughout history this has happened.
> 
> The governments are so far behind the trend they act after the fact. The governments acted after the cycle of inclusion/globalization topped bringing in major number of Refugees on the down side slope. The cycle of exclusion has begun.
> 
> Civil war in Europe is pretty much baked in the cake now that so many muslems have entered Europe & want to live by their ways & religion which involves converting others or death if no conversion for many of them. All this taking place as the government wants to rob from their own people to pay them benefits while their countries are falling apart. US & Canada this has happened to a smaller degree so there is more integration.
> 
> When illegal immigrants coming in or are ready in the US & collecting benefits & some wanting to bring in Moslems to live off the system @ a time of decay of the economy is just asking for trouble. It is the absolute worse thing that can be done. Martin Armstrong who has studied history says large immigration always leads to civil war.
> 
> I m happy Trump got elected as Hillary wanted to bring in more immigrants. Better to have a smaller problem then a larger problem. (get votes for party latter date, though now some countries in Europe if they stay on democracy will get Sharia law if the math continues)


The other big thing is that AI and robotics are eliminating more jobs every year-this isn't 1956 when unskilled immigrants could walk into a factory job-now they need to be given a government job or stipend and the numbers simply don't work anymore-this is why as an example Toronto had a 4% child poverty rate 40 years ago and now it is 27%-I guess the plan is to pump that up to 50 or 60%.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> PM Trudeau was offering condolences and speaking directly to the people in Cuba, as they are reported to be feeling sorrow over Castro's passing.
> 
> In that context Trudeau's words were appropriate. A good leader knows there is a proper time and place for everything.


I rather think Trudeau was thinking about his own father, not the people of Cuba. "I know my father was proud to call him a friend.." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ary-revolutionary-and-orator/article33057429/


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I've been on other message forums that have slowly transformed into alt-right. And the things people post in those places have turned _insane_ ...
> 
> I really think we are witnessing a form of radicalization before our eyes. You've heard about ISIS radicalization, right? Well look around you, read up on Bannon & crew, and you'll see that all of this is a radicalization movement too.




the toronto Star - majority owners of this website - should have banned nelley for criminal harassment & defamatory libel months ago. When she started spewing faked-up b.a.t.s.h.i.t. poison about hillary diapers & hillary dying & legitimate security agents being howard-university-trained neurologists with epiPens hovering beside the democratic candidate.

the washington post & the NY times are filled right now with stories about the hundreds of russia-fed websites that spawned the canned hillary-is-sick-hillary-is-crooked-white-supremacy poison.

here's a RAND corporation study of the russian "firehose of falsehood" propaganda that expanded via the internet after the 2008 invasion of georgia & expanded even more ferociously after the 2014 russian invasion of crimea. One should read the PDF, not just the summary abstract.

RAND says russia storms the internet to further its aims, legitimize its invasions, rub out criticism from world leaders.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Fidel Castro is identical to Donald .


Where is your sense of humour? Of course, they are not identical. Trump may have tyrannical tendencies though. He claims that he, and only he, has the answers to every national problem. He has a history of cruelty and bullying. He is vindictive and authoritarian. He changes his positions as often as he changes his tie. He frequency uses disinformation. Is he going to be a tyrant? - probably not, he lacks the power. Would he if he could? - perhaps. 

Few of us had heard of the alt-right until Hillary used the term. We talked about right wing conspiracy sites etc. Alt-right sites are not as popular as legitimate sites but their popularity is growing. President-elect Trump actively used them to his advantage during the campaign. Does he believe them or is he just playing people like you?


----------



## sags

If Trump believed the alt right theories he would be building survival bunkers for the wealthy in the remote desert, instead of luxury hotels and golf courses around the world.

The Clintons are "good people" according to Trump now. He wasn't saying that mere weeks ago......"lock her up" he was saying.

The Republicans...the alt right...they have all been played by Trump.

Trump tells people what they want to hear and then does what he wants.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> If Trump believed the alt right theories he would be building survival bunkers for the wealthy in the remote desert, instead of luxury hotels and golf courses around the world.



a problem is that trump himself doesn't know what he believes

he's got the survival bunker problem solved for himself, though
at least for the next four years

.


----------



## olivaw

We don't know what Trump believes, but we know what he says and does. Keith Olbermann's offered a fitting summary using his trademark over-exaggeration. 






This was in September, but pre election behaviour sheds light on post election behaviour.


----------



## lonewolf :)

humble_pie said:


> a problem is that trump himself doesn't know what he believes
> 
> he's got the survival bunker problem solved for himself, though
> at least for the next four years
> 
> .


 Rosevelt & Jackson were shot @ both cases gun misfired. Ford was shot @, FDR was shot @ bullet missed killed a mayor, Linclon, Garfield, Mckinley, Kennedy & Raegan were all shot some died. Being president it not the safest job.


----------



## new dog

Lonewolf your posts are pretty good here. War is a cycle that is played on us. hopefully Trump has altered this cycle because Hillary and just about everyone else were ready for WW3. Vietnam war was the time the left had it right and were on a role, stopping racism and rallying against war. Now they are played completely with the help of the mainstream media. The media and the left under Obama and Hillary have basically done the reverse and most on the left here and everywhere are buying it.

James is fighting the wrong war. The alt right and white supremacy has been trotted out as this huge enemy and it spreads through North America and Europe. This enemy is to hide the lust for war and to actually increase racism to the point of civil war and riots. This is also done to hide and distract from the economic collapse of debt. You don't need to read alt right news sites whether they are right or wrong to see what is going on. 

The left should be rallying behind Trump stopping war and reckless immigration message. They should also demand as a side to their support that racism is put down wherever it rises. Of course many here are totally brainwashed by the mainstream media and are willing to line up for the slaughter. Again the same scrutiny applies to other forms of media and we shouldn't be following this without question either.


----------



## olivaw

Individuals who subscribe to news sites often refer to others as brainwashed. It's the only way for them to reconcile the marginalization of their fictions.

- The moon landing was faked.
- 9/11 was an inside job. 
- Obama is a Kenyan Muslim.
- A secret cabal controls the world.
- Hillary Clinton is demented and sick.
- George Soros and the media are behind the anti-Trump protests.

The stories change. The faithful remain slavishly devoted to them, even when the authors of those stories *admit to their falsehood*.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Individuals who subscribe to news sites often refer to others as brainwashed. It's the only way for them to reconcile the marginalization of their fictions.
> 
> - The moon landing was faked.
> - 9/11 was an inside job.
> - Obama is a Kenyan Muslim.
> - A secret cabal controls the world.
> - Hillary Clinton is demented and sick.
> - George Soros and the media are behind the anti-Trump protests.
> 
> The stories change. The faithful remain slavishly devoted to them, even when the authors of those stories *admit to their falsehood*.


Sheep: You forgot to mention Elvis, the Lockness Monster and Bigfoot.


----------



## mordko

So, Trump is claiming that the election was rigged. He is likely basing that on a conspiracy website infowars.

The question to ask: why a guy who has just won an election would try to undermine election credibility?

The answer is chilling.


----------



## olivaw

...


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> Individuals who subscribe to news sites often refer to others as brainwashed. It's the only way for them to reconcile the marginalization of their fictions.
> 
> - The moon landing was faked.
> - 9/11 was an inside job.
> - Obama is a Kenyan Muslim.
> - A secret cabal controls the world.
> - Hillary Clinton is demented and sick.
> - George Soros and the media are behind the anti-Trump protests.
> 
> The stories change. The faithful remain slavishly devoted to them, even when the authors of those stories *admit to their falsehood*.


If you are referring to me the last line is the most important for everybody that follows other media. That is you can't take it at face value and will need to check it or realize for yourself that it is way to far out there. An example of too far out there would be almost anything dealing with space aliens or stuff like that.

If however you look at my main points you have to see that the left are being played for fools. Again the real left was out in force during the time of the Vietnam war. 

I should add that many on the right get played as well and hate everyone like the white supremacists. This group is being enhanced by the fools on the left and their stupid ideas like letting dangerous people flood over the border or ignore wars abroad because their countrymen are dying and not them.


----------



## olivaw

^The left did not create the white supremacist movement. White supremacy existed in the 1600s. The KKK is one of the most widely known white supremacist offshoots which traces its history back to the 1860s. The left, the centre and the moderate right oppose such groups. We don't know how Trump and Steve Bannon feel about them but the supremascist's joy at the election of Donald Trump is telling. 

GW Bush, a Repubican, started two wars.

Barack Obama, a Democrat, did not start any wars. 

Now there is a Republican heading to the Whitehouse again. This one is the most dishonest president since Nixon. He owes money to foreign governments, he is a known bully, he mixes personal with presidential affairs, he angers easily and he changes his positions frequently. He believes that his gut feeling is more reliable than the expertise of the greatest minds in the United States. 

History is filled with populists like Donald Trump. They seldom work out well.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> ^The left did not create the white supremacist movement. White supremacy existed in the 1600s. The KKK is one of the most widely known white supremacist offshoots which traces its history back to the 1860s. The left, the centre and the moderate right oppose such groups. We don't know how Trump and Steve Bannon feel about them but the supremascist's joy at the election of Donald Trump is telling.
> 
> GW Bush, a Repubican, started two wars.
> 
> Barack Obama, a Democrat, did not start any wars.
> 
> Now there is a Republican heading to the Whitehouse again. This one is the most dishonest president since Nixon. He owes money to foreign governments, he is a known bully, he mixes personal with presidential affairs, he angers easily and he changes his positions frequently. He believes that his gut feeling is more reliable than the expertise of the greatest minds in the United States.
> 
> History is filled with populists like Donald Trump. They seldom work out well.


Too bad Trump isn't Fidel Castro-then you and selfie boy could worship him.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> GW Bush, a Republican, started two wars.
> 
> Barack Obama, a Democrat, did not start any wars.


Paradoxically the planet is more dangerous as Obama leaves office than when Bush left office.
Obama won the Nobel Prize for Peace and it went to his head.
His passivity has endangered us all.

When the Iranians saw the invasion of Iraq by the Americans, they halted their nuclear programme because they didn't want to be next.
They were afraid of the American military ability.

The Iran nuclear deal is an executive order. It was never passed by Congress. Trump can overturn it. Under the protection of this nuclear deal which will allow Iran to get a nuclear bomb in 10 years Iran still continues its support of military intervention in the Middle East,giving aid to the Assad regime,Hezbollah, Yemeni rebels and Hamas. It even captures
and humiliates American sailors in the Persian Gulf. 

By not honoring his red line to intervene in Syria and by not aiding the rebels early on he has allowed a brutal civil war
to occur, resulting in the death of 500,000. Obama's body count is probably worse than Bush's. 

Because Putin is not afraid of Obama he has displayed great aggression--annexation of Crimea, military intervention in eastern Ukraine, military intervention in Syria, the movement of anti-ship missiles to Kaliningrad ,buzzing American and other military airplanes by Russian aircraft and cyber activities designed to unsettle an American election.

Obama dismissed ISIS as the "junior varsity" and enabled its rise by prematurely withdrawing American troops from Iraq. So he
is partially responsible for the lose of life that ISIS caused as well.

Obama has abdicated America's role as international hegemon, the cop on the beat, and we are the worse for it.


----------



## sags

That is a "war footing" that you describe as a solution...not that I disagree the Obama administration has been passive in response.

But to be honest about it, Obama inherited a US population that was weary of war in the Middle East and wanted their troops brought home.

The US military was also depleted, with continual tours of duty by military personnel. If it were to continue, a draft may have been inevitable.

An involuntary draft scenario would have been totally unacceptable to the American public.

On the Iran deal, what are the consequences of scrapping the deal if Iran restarts their nuclear program ? Will the US bomb Iranian facilities ?

Every past President including Obama have said the same thing. Their most difficult decisions involved sending young people to war.

They are constantly reminded of the cost in lives when they have to call the bereaved families or attend military funerals.

As VP Joe Biden recently said, he gets a list every day of the casualties and keeps it in his suit pocket as a reminder of the sacrifices.

George H. Bush says he is still haunted by the troops that didn't return.

What will Trump do regarding ISIS...North Korea...Iran...China...and Russia ? These are big unanswered questions.

Thus far he has said he will "negotiate" deals. That only works if the other side is willing to talk and honor their commitments.

I believe it was Ronald Reagan who coined the phrase..."Trust... but verify." 

Obama tried that....verification became a problem and the trust broke down. We shall see what Trump does differently.


----------



## sags

Trump has said that he knows the solutions. They just come to him naturally. He knows what everyone before him couldn't figure out.

Trump and the Republicans hold all the power now. 

We shall see if they actually do have the solutions or if it was all just trash talk from the cheap seats.


----------



## olivaw

Obama preferred diplomacy to military intervention. He was prepared to militarily engage the Assad government when it used chemical weapons on the people of Syria. Congress chose to limit the scope and length of the engagement through the "_Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against the Government of Syria to Respond to Use of Chemical Weapons_". Ground troops were specifically prohibited. 

Trump is an unknown. We have hints. Neocons have a place at the Trump strategy table. The Republican house and senate is going to be more hawkish than the Dems would have been. Trump promises to increase the military budget and to increase the number of American troops. He has asked about America's conducting a first nuclear strike. He didn't understand the term "nuclear triad". He declines security briefings. He has yet to display empathy. 

Trump has mused about economic and military isolationism but there has been no overarching strategy in his speeches. He is keeping us in suspense about what he really believes (if anything).

We simply don't know what to expect from Trump.


----------



## lonewolf :)

For military & infrastructure spending Trump is planning on issuing currency directly from the treasury. Cutting the banks out of the picture making these projects purely public (good for the people) which will be bad for the banks not able to collect fees & interest.

Borrow from the tax payer pay them interest instead of borrowing from banks & paying interest to banks  Bankers in bed with Obama conflict of interest no wonder keep going in debt collect interest 

The only 2 presidents that were successfully assassinated tried to do this Lincoln & JFK


----------



## andrewf

^ Trump is planning on going full Mugabe.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> ^ Trump is planning on going full Mugabe.


As opposed to going full Fidel Castro-which would be the ultimate compliment from bubbleheads like yourself.


----------



## mordko

So, looks like Steven Mnuchin will be the Treasury Secretary.

Mnuchin spent 17 years with Goldman and also worked for Soros Fund Management. And he is Jewish. And a Democrat. And has not shown any sign of Trump's populist policies. 

He is probably one of the poorest members of the new administration which is basically filled with billionaires.

Trump's base is going to be SO happy.


----------



## sags

Another wealthy elite joins Captain Trump on the quarterdeck of the Trump Tower.........as he says to his supporters,

"First, your choice of nominations was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement, so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a wealthy elite for the Election Pledge Code to apply, and you're not. And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules. 

Welcome aboard the Trump Tower, Mr. Mnuchin."


----------



## sags

Trump's campaign manager Kellyanne Conway is visiting Alberta.

I wonder if she is hand delivering a note for TransCanada.....with an opening bid of 50% of the profits for Keystone Pipeline approval.


----------



## sags

Billionaire Wilbur Ross is said to be named the new Commerce Secretary.

And in other news......now that it appears he isn't going to get a cabinet post, New Gingrich is speaking out again.

_“Presidents of the United States can’t randomly tweet without having somebody check it out,” Gingrich said Tuesday. *“It makes you wonder about whatever else he’s doing*. ”_


----------



## sags

Gotta give him credit when due.........

Trump calls Carrier and they decide to keep 1000 jobs in the US.


----------



## new dog

There were incentives from the state so we will have to see what that is but on the surface it looks like a good start.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/29/trum...000-carrier-corp-jobs-in-indiana-sources.html


----------



## new dog

Here is something funny about Hillary and the media hypocrisy. It is from MSNBC so it is the gold standard and a very enjoyable listen for the forum buddies here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCjIqGn5W28


----------



## lonewolf :)

Pultizer created the Spanish American war by making up BS to sell to news papers. The famous Pultizer prize is named after Pulitzer go figure.

It is good that the American people are trusting the media less. Feeding us global man made warming, trying to change election results or leading us into war. They never did find the Saddam s weapons of mass destruction


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Here is something funny about Hillary and the media hypocrisy. It is from MSNBC so it is the gold standard and a very enjoyable listen for the forum buddies here.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCjIqGn5W28




no, that is *not* NBC & it is *not* from the gold standard. The creator of that video is the Washington Free Beacon, another one among many marginal ultra-right-wing websites that struggle to serve up biased opinion & call it news.

i'm glad at least one person has had an "enjoyable listen." Everyone else will class this rag of a video as a pathetic attempt at failed humour.

dogcom i'm left wondering how come you cannot tell what is a real news service & what is faked? this washington free beacon is obviously theatre. The actors are playing a script. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real journalism.

i don't mind ultra rightwingers on here presenting links to amateur fake news websites if that's how they wish to spend their time. But i certainly do mind attempts to pass off the same as mainstream professional journalism.

_" The Washington Free Beacon is an American politically conservative political journalism Web site that publishes news and opinion commentary. It states it is "dedicated to uncovering the stories that the powers that be hope will never see the light of day" and producing "in-depth investigative reporting on a wide range of issues, including public policy, government affairs, international security, and media."

" The site is noted for its aggressive, ideologically driven reporting."_


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Free_Beacon


.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> no, that is *not* NBC & it is *not* from the gold standard. The creator of that video is the Washington Free Beacon, another one among many marginal ultra-right-wing websites that struggle to serve up biased opinion & call it news.
> 
> i'm glad at least one person has had an "enjoyable listen." Everyone else will class this rag of a video as a pathetic attempt at failed humour.
> 
> dogcom i'm left wondering how come you cannot tell what is a real news service & what is faked? this washington free beacon is obviously theatre. The actors are playing a script. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real journalism.
> 
> i don't mind ultra rightwingers on here presenting links to amateur fake news websites if that's how they wish to spend their time. But i certainly do mind attempts to pass off the same as mainstream professional journalism.
> 
> _" The Washington Free Beacon is an American politically conservative political journalism Web site that publishes news and opinion commentary. It states it is "dedicated to uncovering the stories that the powers that be hope will never see the light of day" and producing "in-depth investigative reporting on a wide range of issues, including public policy, government affairs, international security, and media."
> 
> " The site is noted for its aggressive, ideologically driven reporting."_
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Free_Beacon
> 
> 
> .


I don't understand what you are saying humble_pie. The video was posted by the Washington Free Beacon, but it says on the screen MSNBC and it is a video of real hosts on that show, Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski. This is a real show called Morning Joe. These aren't actors ,these are real television personalities. The words appear to be theirs ,they do not appear to be dubbed.


----------



## sags

Recounts in close elections are common in the US.

Why would anyone have a problem with making sure the voting process was untainted ?


----------



## sags

With Trump learning all of the secrets of the US military and economy, I wonder if he feels like calling up Hillary and asking, "do you still want the job ?"

I mean.........space wars now ?...........Hokey Doodle.


----------



## olivaw

^They say that Trump has no patience for detail. He may not yet have learned the secrets of the US military and economy. Hopefully he'll delegate that to a competent individual. Jared Kushner or Ivanka maybe? 

(The video from Morning Joe linked above was funny. Joe is a former Republican congressman and he has always been a bit of a comedian. He was hamming it up for the camera).


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> no, that is *not* NBC & it is *not* from the gold standard. The creator of that video is the Washington Free Beacon, another one among many marginal ultra-right-wing websites that struggle to serve up biased opinion & call it news.
> 
> i'm glad at least one person has had an "enjoyable listen." Everyone else will class this rag of a video as a pathetic attempt at failed humour.
> 
> dogcom i'm left wondering how come you cannot tell what is a real news service & what is faked? this washington free beacon is obviously theatre. The actors are playing a script. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real journalism.
> 
> i don't mind ultra rightwingers on here presenting links to amateur fake news websites if that's how they wish to spend their time. But i certainly do mind attempts to pass off the same as mainstream professional journalism.
> 
> _" The Washington Free Beacon is an American politically conservative political journalism Web site that publishes news and opinion commentary. It states it is "dedicated to uncovering the stories that the powers that be hope will never see the light of day" and producing "in-depth investigative reporting on a wide range of issues, including public policy, government affairs, international security, and media."
> 
> " The site is noted for its aggressive, ideologically driven reporting."_
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Free_Beacon
> 
> 
> .



Thanks wrahpter for the reply on this it was a good one.

Humble sorry I haven't replied lately to your replies. I have found your replies not boring and funny lately like the YVR one a while back. For this reason I have let them stand. This one was also funny for some reason so I also let it stand. So I am not ignoring you, just liked the posts.


----------



## wisdomlight

In my opinion Americans are concerned because Trump is thinking out of the box which means that they can be out of their comfort zone soon. Change is good but I admit, it is scary too.


----------



## mordko

> Washington Free Beacon, another one among many marginal ultra-right-wing websites that struggle to serve up biased opinion & call it news


In that case Hufftington Post is but a bunch of red brigade terrorists serving propaganda as news.

In the real world neither of the 2 claims is accurate. Beacon is a conservative news and opinion site which has been very successful in investigative reporting. Their opinions are definitely biased, which is pretty much how one defines the word "opinion".


----------



## olivaw

NY Times has the details of Donald Trump's deal with Carrier. 

*Behind Trump’s Deal With Carrier*

In addition to what the article says, it is worth noting that Carrier is a division of United Technologies, a company receives billions in US defence contracts.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Humble ... I have found your replies not boring and funny lately like the YVR one a while back. For this reason I have let them stand. This one was also funny for some reason



sorry i no idea that anyone would consider joe scarborough a professional journalist. He's usually regarded as a strident right-wing TV personality who hosts a TV talk show loosely based on "news." 

baltimore sun reporter David Zurawik explains scarborough's limitations:



> MSNBC's Joe Scarborough has been using his show to shill for Donald Trump.
> 
> I wrote about it in August under the headline: "Could cable TV hosts kiss up any harder to Trump?" I wrote about it again Saturday under the headline: "Why are moderators, anchors hugging, kissing up to candidates so much?"
> 
> As both articles explain, it is not just Scarborough, but he is by the far the worst when it comes to Trump.
> 
> CNN had video for our segment today that showed Scarborough boasting of how he advised Trump after the first and second debates. Scarborough is proud of this highly inappropriate and compromising relationship.
> 
> Many cable show hosts are not journalists, and, sadly, they have never been socialized to the mores and ethics of the profession.
> 
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/tv/z-on-tv-blog/
> .



PS when it comes to criticism of the media by the media, Zurawik is a real pro. Bred in the bone, worked all his life in the brotherhood. The ethics he's talking about above include the obligation to report all sides of a story objectively.

here are Zurawik's credentials: 

_The Sun's TV/media critic since 1989, David Zurawik earned a Ph.D. in American Studies (pop culture-media studies) from the University of Maryland, College Park. He has an M.A. from the University of Wisconsin in specialized reporting (pop culture) and is the author of "The Jews of Prime Time," a look at 50 years of Jewish identity in network TV (Brandeis University Press/University Press of New England, 2003). He was previously TV critic/columnist at the Dallas Times Herald.
_

par contre, joe scarborough was, i believe, a lawyer & a politician before he became a TV personality. These backgrounds do not equate to professional journalism.

.


----------



## new dog

Humble, I think you will like this one though, it is Trump being criticized on Zerohedge for what seems to be a blunder, calling the Taiwan president which is a no no. 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...tic-scandal-china-following-taiwan-phone-call

Even on CNN, so now we have both ends of the spectrum chiming in and this is not a good thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/politics/donald-trump-taiwan/index.html


----------



## andrewf

How long until Breitbart starts complaining?


----------



## new dog

I leave you with this fine piece of Christmas music for you all to enjoy especially the last few seconds before the credits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW85ZcswiqM


----------



## sags

Thanks New Dog.........that was a very well done video.

I truly hope that all the fears and concerns have been for nothing and Trump is the best President in US history.

We can revisit this video next year and see how the first year turned out.

My concern with Trump is in foreign policy and the military, a minefield where bad judgement and mistakes can have consequences far greater than money. It is no place for inexperience or for wild ideas to flourish.

I don't count on the judgement of many of Trump supporters, as the interviews I have seen reveal many of them to be uninformed of the issues and relying solely on their belief that Trump is an honest man or are just angry about everything. 

I do rely on the very intelligent people who support Trump, who know the complexities of the situations and still support him.

Most of those people have resided in the past in "the swamp" though, which is where they obtained the knowledge.


----------



## sags

Personally, I would feel more comfortable with Mitt Romney as Secretary of State. 

He would be a calm, cool and well informed voice joining Mike Pence in the inner circle of Trump advisers.

Rudy Giuliani would cause some concern, I think.

He appears to be a bit out of control these days, which may be why Ivanka Trump expressed reservations on his appointment to her father.

We will see who Trump nominates.


----------



## olivaw

Cute video. They almost captured the essence of the Donald - if only they had included the lies, the conflicts of interest, the unpreparedness, the p*ssy grabbing, the angry tweets, the conspiracy theories, the bullying and the disinterest in security briefings. 

ETA: Mitt Romney definitely seems better suited to Sec. of State than Rudy Giuliani.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Thanks New Dog.........that was a very well done video



you are being sarcastic, right? that was another bash hillary effort from the well-known hillary bashers, look at the channel it's in ...

.


----------



## olivaw

Trump has *wasted no time launching his first diplomatic crisis with China*. It comes on the heels of his lavish praise for Pakistan and its prime minister, praise for strongman Nursultan Nazarbayev, invitation to Rodrigo Duterte, meeting with Shinzō Abe and mild snubbing of Theresa May.

Those who enjoy teenaged squabbling are in for a fantastic four years - or maybe less if Trump sets off catastrophic global war.


----------



## lonewolf :)

sags said:


> With Trump learning all of the secrets of the US military and economy, I wonder if he feels like calling up Hillary and asking, "do you still want the job ?"
> 
> I mean.........space wars now ?...........Hokey Doodle.



We need some that has the balls to push the button. Europe is being destroyed by immigrants. Immigrants coming into Mexico with the Mexico government helping them get to boarder towns along the US boarder its time to press a few buttons.


----------



## humble_pie

donald trump, what a secretary of state hypocrit.

after months of hammering clinton's use of a personal e-mail server while secretary of state, trump's short list for the same position reportedly includes fired CIA director david petraeus.

petraeus, a former 4-star army general who headed US forces in both afghanistan & iraq, was the villain in a lurid scandal when he betrayed top US military secrets to his girlfriend, who used to visit him while he was on active combat duty in the middle east.

where's the logic in this? hillary sends e-mails as secretary of state but is never charged with anything. Trump says she'll go to jail.

petraeus is charged with betraying key secrets on US counter-insurgency measures to his mistress paula broadwell, who is writing a book about them. Petraeus admits guilt. Trump rewards petraeus with secretary of state consideration.

lol trump's cabinet picks are pure Swamp Gen II.


.


----------



## andrewf

Mexicans are exactly the wrong immigrants to be worried about. You worried they will pick your lettuce and mow your lawn?


----------



## wraphter

andrewf said:


> Mexicans are exactly the wrong immigrants to be worried about. You worried they will pick your lettuce and mow your lawn?


Donald Trump hit that sucker right over the centre field fence and won the World Series. Some people still haven't the foggiest idea
what happened. They really struck out big league.


----------



## olivaw

Mexicans and Muslims are the scapegoats du Jour.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Mexicans and Muslims are the scapegoats du Jour.


Mohamed Atta



> Mohamed Mohamed el-Amir Awad el-Sayed Atta (Arabic: محمد محمد الأمير عوض السيد عطا‎‎ Muḥammad Muḥammad al-Amir ‘Awaḍ as-Sayyid ‘Aṭā [mæˈħæmmæd elʔæˈmiːɾ ˈʕɑwɑdˤ esˈsæj.jed ˈʕɑtˤɑ]; September 1, 1968 – September 11, 2001) was an Egyptian hijacker and one of the ringleaders in the September 11 attacks who served as the hijacker-pilot of American Airlines Flight 11, crashing the plane into the North Tower of the World Trade Center as part of the coordinated attacks.[1][2][3][4][5] At 33 years of age, he was the oldest hijacker to participate in the attacks.
> 
> ....
> 
> Born in 1968 in a small town in Egypt's Nile Delta, Atta moved with his family to the Abdeen section of Cairo at the age of 10. Atta studied architecture at Cairo University, graduating in 1990, and continued his studies in Hamburg, Germany at the Technical University of Hamburg. In Hamburg, Atta became involved with the al-Quds Mosque, where he met Marwan al-Shehhi, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, and Ziad Jarrah, together forming the Hamburg cell. Atta disappeared from Germany for periods of time, spending some time in Afghanistan, including several months in late 1999 and early 2000 when he met Osama bin Laden and other top al-Qaeda leaders.
> 
> ............
> 
> n early September 2001, Atta traveled to Prince George's County, Maryland, where fellow hijacker Hani Hanjour was at the time. Atta then traveled to Boston, and on September 10, with Abdulaziz al-Omari to Portland, Maine. They spent the night at the Comfort Inn in South Portland. On the morning of September 11, Atta and Omari traveled on Colgan Air back to Boston, where they boarded American Airlines Flight 11. Fifteen minutes into the flight, the team of hijackers attacked and Atta took over control of the aircraft.* At 8:46 a.m., Atta crashed the Boeing 767 into the North Tower of the World Trade Center, killing everyone on board including himself and the other hijackers and cabin crew[6] and an additional 1,366 civilians at or above the floors of impact in the North Tower.*


Muslim terrorists in the US have killed 94 people in the US since 9/11. Non-muslims,55.

Almost twice as much although they are 1% of the population. 

Link from Time article you quoted to the article by Peter Bergen.


----------



## wraphter

Obama the Enabler fist bumping Michelle in the White house.

New Yorker cartoon.


----------



## olivaw

The study that I quoted said 26 were killed by self-proclaimed jihadists, 48 by white supremacists. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/u...llenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html. That old New Yorker cartoon satirized right wing conspiracy theories. Remember how Obama was going to impose Sharia in the US? 

There are dozens of threads for the newly created Muslim bashing IDs to post misinformation. This thread is for misinformation about Trump's transition. 

Mexicans and Muslims were handy scapegoats during the campaign. It is doubtful that Trump can or will make significant policy change. Undocumented immigrants who commit crimes are already deported under federal statute. Religious freedom is protected under the US constitution. His changes will be minor and/or illusory.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> The study that I quoted said 26 were killed by self-proclaimed jihadists, 48 by white supremacists. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/u...llenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html. That old New Yorker cartoon satirized right wing conspiracy theories. Remember how Obama was going to impose Sharia in the US?
> 
> There are dozens of threads for the newly created Muslim bashing IDs to post misinformation. This thread is for misinformation about Trump's transition.
> 
> Mexicans and Muslims were handy scapegoats during the campaign. It is doubtful that Trump can or will make significant policy change. Undocumented immigrants who commit crimes are already deported under federal statute. Religious freedom is protected under the US constitution. His changes will be minor and/or illusory.


I have discussed this with you before. Your NYT piece relies on a piece by Peter Bergen. Here is what he says



> In the fifteen years after 9/11, jihadists have killed 94 people inside the United States. Each of those deaths is a tragedy. The attack in Orlando was the deadliest terrorist attack in the United States since 9/11 and the deadliest mass shooting in American history. However, the attacks are not national catastrophes of the type the United States experienced on 9/11. Instead the death toll has been quite similar to other forms of political—and even non-political—violence Americans face today.


]

Can you see? It's 94 for the jihadists. The NYT piece is wrong.
Also look at the graph on that page.

It says 

94--jihadist

50--right wing

5----left wing



> This thread is for misinformation about Trump's transition.


You are wrong again and stop trying to be so controlling. What I am posting is on topic.
It goes to the validity or not of Trump's immigration policies.


In the future try to get your facts straight.
Make an effort to be accurate.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> I have discussed this with you before. Your NYT piece relies on a piece by Peter Bergen. Here is what he says


Hardly a discussion. You posted the same argument when you tried to hijack a different thread. I ignored it. Post it in one of the hot button anti-Islam threads and one day I might pop by to refute your claim one day. 

Peter Bergen is CNN's national security analyst. He He published a *well written assessment of Trump's new Defence Secratary*. 



> Overall, Mattis and Schake urge that political leaders such as Trump should be making the case for the necessity of America’s wars rather than relying on the military to do so; that those wars should be better resourced; the United States should be in those wars to win, and the military should focus on waging successful wars rather than being a petri dish for social experimentation.


----------



## andrewf

wraphter said:


> I have discussed this with you before. Your NYT piece relies on a piece by Peter Bergen. Here is what he says
> 
> ]
> 
> Can you see? It's 94 for the jihadists. The NYT piece is wrong.
> Also look at the graph on that page.
> 
> It says
> 
> 94--jihadist
> 
> 50--right wing
> 
> 5----left wing
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong again and stop trying to be so controlling. What I am posting is on topic.
> It goes to the validity or not of Trump's immigration policies.
> 
> 
> In the future try to get your facts straight.
> Make an effort to be accurate.


So first we go after the jihadis, then we go after the right wing?


----------



## wraphter

andrewf said:


> So first we go after the jihadis, then we go after the right wing?


Ha Ha ,that sounds good.


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> you are being sarcastic, right? that was another bash hillary effort from the well-known hillary bashers, look at the channel it's in ...
> 
> .


I was referring to the creative way it was put together by one person, including a pretty good Jimmy Stewart impression.

As to the content.........satirical fluff.


----------



## sags

lonewolf :) said:


> We need some that has the balls to push the button. Europe is being destroyed by immigrants. Immigrants coming into Mexico with the Mexico government helping them get to boarder towns along the US boarder its time to press a few buttons.


"Pushing the button" would end a lot of squabbles........that is for sure.

Unfortunately most of us won't still be around to see if it all worked out.

I wouldn't want Trump's last tweet to say........"I messed up hugely. Sorry. Goodbye".


----------



## sags

So far this year there have been more than 700 murders in Chicago alone.

The statistics on this thread regarding Muslims involved in murder are meaningless, when put into context.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> So far this year there have been more than 700 murders in Chicago alone.
> 
> The statistics on this thread regarding Muslims involved in murder are meaningless, when put into context.


Good thing Chicago has the strictest gun control laws-if it didn't it would have 7000 murders this year.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> "Pushing the button" would end a lot of squabbles........that is for sure.
> 
> Unfortunately most of us won't still be around to see if it all worked out.
> 
> I wouldn't want Trump's last tweet to say........"I messed up hugely. Sorry. Goodbye".


The latest farce is the MSM squealing because Trump won't get down on his knees for Communist China like Obozo was willing to do-should be interesting.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> So far this year there have been more than 700 murders in Chicago alone.


2015 in the US
12 killed by white terrorists (white supremacist & abortion clinic)
25 killed by Muslim terrorism
16,000 murders
35,000 traffic fatalities

2016
11 killed by non-Muslim terrorism
53 killed by Muslim terrorism (suspected)

There are very few deaths from terrorism in the US. It's definitely a problem, but in context, really not the big problem.


----------



## kcowan

lonewolf :) said:


> We need some that has the balls to push the button. Europe is being destroyed by immigrants. Immigrants coming into Mexico with the Mexico government helping them get to boarder towns along the US boarder its time to press a few buttons.


Mexico weeds out 93% of the refugees passing through so the ones that get to the northern border have a genuine case for seeking safe harbour.


----------



## wraphter

kcowan said:


> Mexico weeds out 93% of the refugees passing through so the ones that get to the northern border have a genuine case for seeking safe harbour.


Really? Well it looks like the Mexican police with their usual efficiency are a little behind in their weeding of Central American migrants. 




> Illegal Central American Immigration Surges Again at U.S. Border
> 
> *For the second time in three years, the U.S. Border Patrol is apprehending more non-Mexicans than Mexicans along the southwest border, reflecting a renewed surge of Central American migrants fleeing violence and gang warfare in their home countries. *
> 
> Many of those apprehended are children traveling alone or in so-called “family units,” and come from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras, according to newly released statistics from U.S. Customs and Border Enforcement. Nearly two-thirds of the apprehensions occurred within the Rio Grande Valley Border Patrol Sector, spanning much of Texas’s southernmost tip.
> 
> Through August of this year, there were a total of 369,411 apprehensions on the U.S.-Mexico border. More than half of those were of non-Mexicans, the statistics show. As of July, the border patrol had apprehended 57,344 people from El Salvador, 58,337 from Guatemala and 41,042 from Honduras compared to 160,193 from Mexico.


369,411 apprehensions through August of 2016, and Donald Trump was the only candidate who had the nerve to mention it.

He hit that sucker right out of the park and the ball landed in the White House.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> I was referring to the creative way it was put together by one person, including a pretty good Jimmy Stewart impression.
> 
> As to the content.........satirical fluff.




perhaps you could look again? the video was "put together" by more than one editor. There is a loud, ugly hillary-as-gorilla two-second addition at the end. This was added by a party other than the primary video creator.

i agree that the original piece is mild. The add-on makes it one more piece of cannon-fodder directed at hillary clinton. It's to this add-on that newdogcom has specifically directed our attention.

perhaps you could also note the anti-hillary nature of the channel where the butchered piece is embedded. Worn-out & has-been by now, nearly a month after the election ... each:

.


----------



## sags

Ah...okay.........I didn't pay much attention to the gorilla part, because I thought it was an odd ending and kind of lame.

I watched the credits in the video and it appeared to have done by one person.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> The latest farce is the MSM squealing because Trump won't get down on his knees for Communist China like Obozo was willing to do-should be interesting.


You are aware that Reagan and both Bushes adhered to US protocol on Taiwan too? Perhaps your man blundered and he's too pig headed to admit it. Or maybe his hawkish staff set it up and Trump went along with it cluelessly. 

Trump is certainly entertaining. No doubt Putin is enjoying a good belly laugh.


----------



## sags

Unfortunately, it may take a heavy handed response from a foreign nation to convince Trump to be more prudent in his actions.

He doesn't seem to understand the serious nature of the Presidency.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Ah...okay.........I didn't pay much attention to the gorilla part, because I thought it was an odd ending and kind of lame.
> 
> I watched the credits in the video and it appeared to have done by one person.



this is how the fake news sites operate. Sometimes, as with this example, they steal stuff outright & crudely paste or staple on an add-on.

other times they steal an item of core news & coat it with falsehoods & extremist opinion, then serve up the resulting stew as their own original web creation.

with a youtube video, it's a good idea to look at the channel selections that accompany. One can catch the drift pretty fast.

.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> You are aware that Reagan and both Bushes adhered to US protocol on Taiwan too? Perhaps your man blundered and he's too pig headed to admit it. Or maybe his hawkish staff set it up and Trump went along with it cluelessly.
> 
> Trump is certainly entertaining. No doubt Putin is enjoying a good belly laugh.


As usual you miss the point entirely-who gives a **** what Reagan or Bushes did? Trump is sending a not so subtle message that he doesn't work for the Commie Chinese.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Unfortunately, it may take a heavy handed response from a foreign nation to convince Trump to be more prudent in his actions.
> 
> He doesn't seem to understand the serious nature of the Presidency.


Commie: TAIWAN is an independent nation not under the control of Communist China-so far neither is the USA-no thanks to the MSM or people like yourself.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Unfortunately, it may take a heavy handed response from a foreign nation to convince Trump to be more prudent in his actions.
> 
> He doesn't seem to understand the serious nature of the Presidency.


Who it going to teach Trump a lesson?

He is soon to be the Commander-In- Chief of the most lethal military on the planet.

Perhaps its the other parties who should be worried?

Perhaps Trump will be the one who teaches? 


Walter White in Breaking Bad: I am the danger. I am the one who knocks.

https://youtu.be/wMEq1mGpP5A

Meanwhile, at the recent fundraiser some Chinese Canadians are paying $1500 a plate and asking Trudeau
for favours. That's what happens when you are a little guy like Canada. You get rolled.

When I walk in Chinatown in downtown Toronto the Falun Gong are always passing out leaflets about
the selling of body parts of executed prisoners .Then there was the hacking of the US govt personel files.


The Chinese have a lot to answer for.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> As usual you miss the point entirely-who gives a **** what Reagan or Bushes did? Trump is sending a not so subtle message that he doesn't work for the Commie Chinese.


Are protocols equivalent to subservience or has Trump unilaterally decided to abandon America's long standing one-China policy? 

What is your point exactly?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Are protocols equivalent to subservience or has Trump unilaterally decided to abandon America's long standing one-China policy?
> 
> What is your point exactly?


If the POTUS cannot speak to a democratically elected leader of a free country (Taiwan)-of course that is SUBSERVIENCE Einstein.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> If the POTUS cannot speak to a democratically elected leader of a free country (Taiwan)-of course that is SUBSERVIENCE Einstein.


Socky, the United States does not officially recognize Taiwan as an independent country. It's sometimes referred to as the one-China policy. 



> The United States and Taiwan enjoy a robust unofficial relationship. The 1979 U.S.-P.R.C. Joint Communique switched diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing. In the Joint Communique, the United States recognized the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China, acknowledging the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China. The Joint Communique also stated that the people of the United States will maintain cultural, commercial, and other unofficial relations with the people of Taiwan. The American Institute in Taiwan (AIT) is responsible for implementing U.S. policy toward Taiwan.
> 
> The United States does not support Taiwan independence. Maintaining strong, unofficial relations with Taiwan is a major U.S. goal, in line with the U.S. desire to further peace and stability in Asia. The 1979 Taiwan Relations Act provides the legal basis for the unofficial relationship between the United States and Taiwan, and enshrines the U.S. commitment to assist Taiwan in maintaining its defensive capability. The United States insists on the peaceful resolution of cross-Strait differences, opposes unilateral changes to the status quo by either side, and encourages both sides to continue their constructive dialogue on the basis of dignity and respect.


http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Socky, the United States does not officially recognize Taiwan as an independent country. It's sometimes referred to as the one-China policy.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm


Einstein: Logic is really difficult for you-so you keep stating the same thing over and over-that US policy in this regard has been to be subservient to Communist China-DUH-so Donald Trump broke "protocol of subservience"-GOOD FOR HIM. Jeez.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Einstein: Logic is really difficult for you-so you keep stating the same thing over and over-that US policy in this regard has been to be subservient to Communist China-DUH-so Donal Trump broke "protocol of subservience"-GOOD FOR HIM. Jeez.


Fess up socks. You didn't know about the one-China policy did you? Don't feel bad. Trump didn't either. 

I doubt that Trump is engaged in a subtle diplomatic negotiation with China. The hawks in his circle manipulated him into doing something provocative. 

Putin would love nothing more than increased tension between the United States and China.


----------



## mordko

US can talk to whoever it likes; none of China's business. Talking to the leader of 22nd largest economy in the world, a democracy and a major strategic ally in the region makes a lot of sense. 

What does not make sense is Trump constantly whining about SNL. The man sounds like he himself is a parody. That's the kind of **** one expects of paranoid dictators like Putin. 

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/805278955150471168?ref_src=twsrc^tfw


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> Commie: TAIWAN is an independent nation not under the control of Communist China-so far neither is the USA-no thanks to the MSM or people like yourself.


China considers Taiwan a "break away" Province and other nations should be wary of interfering with Chinese sovereignty.

Many Californians want to break away from the US. They would be the 6th largest economy in the world if they did so.

How would the US react if China actively encouraged California to leave the US ?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Commie: TAIWAN is an independent nation not under the control of Communist China-so far neither is the USA-no thanks to the MSM or people like yourself.


Please. If Trump decided to sell out Taiwan to China you would be cheering that, too. You're just a cheerleader.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> China considers Taiwan a "break away" Province and other nations should be wary of interfering with Chinese sovereignty.
> 
> Many Californians want to break away from the US. They would be the 6th largest economy in the world if they did so.
> 
> How would the US react if China actively encouraged California to leave the US ?


Impressive level of BS. Here is a piece of news: Californians vote and elect US presidents and US Senate legislates for the whole of US, including California. None of it applies to Taiwan, which is an independent democracy, unlike China. There is a fundamental difference between Chinese imperialistic ambitions and a non-existent separatist movement in California.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Who it going to teach Trump a lesson?
> 
> He is soon to be the Commander-In- Chief of the most lethal military on the planet.
> 
> Perhaps its the other parties who should be worried?
> 
> Perhaps Trump will be the one who teaches?




it always goes like this with white supremacist right wingers. Show em a brown shirt & they kneel down to kiss the tips of the black boots.

.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> perhaps you could look again? the video was "put together" by more than one editor. There is a loud, ugly hillary-as-gorilla two-second addition at the end. This was added by a party other than the primary video creator.
> 
> i agree that the original piece is mild. The add-on makes it one more piece of cannon-fodder directed at hillary clinton. It's to this add-on that newdogcom has specifically directed our attention.
> 
> perhaps you could also note the anti-hillary nature of the channel where the butchered piece is embedded. Worn-out & has-been by now, nearly a month after the election ... each:
> 
> .



I would agree with you here, if I thought Trump was right criticizing SNL, which I think he is not. Funny is funny and Trump should know that and be quiet on SNL. 

I know we have different tastes when it comes to entertainment. I like stupid comedy like The Hangover, Caddyshack, Vacation with Chevy Chase and on TV I liked Seinfeld, Married with children, Benny Hill and so on. I never thought Woody Allen was funny and hated Sex in the City. I am not much into artsy, just the entertainment.


----------



## mordko

wraphter said:


> Who it going to teach Trump a lesson?
> 
> He is soon to be the Commander-In- Chief of the most lethal military on the planet.
> 
> Perhaps its the other parties who should be worried?


Then again, the Commander-In-Chief is bound to be occupying himself with more important tasks. Like whinging about SNL on Twitter at 1am.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> I would agree with you here, if I thought Trump was right criticizing SNL, which I think he is not. Funny is funny and Trump should know that and be quiet on SNL.
> 
> I know we have different tastes when it comes to entertainment. I like stupid comedy like The Hangover, Caddyshack, Vacation with Chevy Chase and on TV I liked Seinfeld, Married with children, Benny Hill and so on. I never thought Woody Allen was funny and hated Sex in the City. I am not much into artsy, just the entertainment.


I always said Seinfeld was the greatest sitcom ever until Sunny in Philadelphia came along.


----------



## james4beach

Nelley said:


> I always said Seinfeld was the greatest sitcom ever until Sunny in Philadelphia came along.


I still really like Seinfeld, but I just watched all of Always Sunny in Philadelphia over the last month. It's very funny, great scripts and timing. I really liked it!

I was doubled over laughing uncontrollably during the episode where they go on Family Feud (The Gang Goes on Family Fight). What's going on with Dennis is hilarious.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> I still really like Seinfeld, but I just watched all of Always Sunny in Philadelphia over the last month. It's very funny, great scripts and timing. I really liked it!
> 
> I was doubled over laughing uncontrollably during the episode where they go on Family Feud (The Gang Goes on Family Fight). What's going on with Dennis is hilarious.


All the characters are great but yeah Dennis is something else-that episode The Dennis System was right over the top.


----------



## olivaw

The far right populist/nationalist/isolationist presidential candidate lost in Austria. It's a start.


----------



## james4beach

The alt-right has been spreading a conspiracy theory about Hillary organizing a pedophile ring at a pizza joint. Pizzagate has been pushed by Alex Jones / Infowars. Infowars is one of the biggest sources of alt right propaganda.

Sunday, a man decided to investigate this for himself, and walked into that restaurant with a gun, pointed it in the direction of a restaurant employee, *and fired*. Police seized several weapons from the man.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/4/edgar-maddison-welch-arrested-after-bringing-gun-c/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-...t-pizza-victim-of-fake-sex-trafficking-story/

What do you think is going to happen when the alt-right starts spreading stories about politician X or activist Y being a traitor or doing something awful? These same outlets have already been saying that the Jewish billionaire Soros is out to destroy America. Look at ZeroHedge comments and you'll see people saying that someone must take care of Soros, must stop him, etc.


----------



## james4beach

I'll be blunt: I think the alt-right radicals have put a "hit" out on George Soros, or are working up towards it. They might do the same with other political/ideological enemies. Not at all surprising when you consider that the alt-right is fundamentally a white supremacist movement; they are extremists.

http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/alt-right-a-primer-about-the.html

Soros has funded movements encouraging racial equality, and funds people pursuing careers in the racial justice field. My theory is that the white supremacists have identified him as an enemy, and are -- via their crazy propaganda machine -- motivating people to "do something". Remember that white supremacists _perceive a battle_ between white interests and those who who are taking power away from them. Soros helps take power away from them, and the fact he is Jewish is probably icing on the cake for the alt-right.

In my opinion this is clear cut terrorism, and the alt-right is a terrorist movement. Now they are radicalizing people and inciting violence or even murder. They are funded and have a propaganda machine composed of cooperating media outlets and conservative/evangelical christian broadcasting networks. The man who fired his gun inside the pizza place Sunday was likely a terrorist who has been radicalized by this movement.

I'm increasingly thinking that the *alt-right conspiracy theories are strategic* with a goal of physical action, carried out by recruits. The stories resonate well with unbalanced young men, or mentally ill people such as those who might get whipped up into a frenzy and do something violent. The pizza restaurant shooting is one example of this playing out (whipped up by propaganda about Hillary Clinton being extremely evil, a monster).


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> The alt-right has been spreading a conspiracy theory about Hillary organizing a pedophile ring at a pizza joint. Pizzagate has been pushed by Alex Jones / Infowars. Infowars is one of the biggest sources of alt right propaganda.
> 
> Sunday, a man decided to investigate this for himself, and walked into that restaurant with a gun, pointed it in the direction of a restaurant employee, *and fired*. Police seized several weapons from the man.
> 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/4/edgar-maddison-welch-arrested-after-bringing-gun-c/
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-...t-pizza-victim-of-fake-sex-trafficking-story/
> 
> What do you think is going to happen when the alt-right starts spreading stories about politician X or activist Y being a traitor or doing something awful? These same outlets have already been saying that the Jewish billionaire Soros is out to destroy America. Look at ZeroHedge comments and you'll see people saying that someone must take care of Soros, must stop him, etc.


Gee, you might have included the little detail that nobody was hurt. Its those tiny details that matter so much.

I don't know that his religion is the reason some people don't like him,rather it is the groups his Foundation contributes to,such as Black Lives Matter. 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/14/george-soros-funds-ferguson-protests-hopes-to-spur/



> Rather, it’s liberal billionaire George Soros, who has built a business empire that dominates across the ocean in Europe while forging a political machine powered by nonprofit foundations that impacts American politics and policy, not unlike what he did with MoveOn.org.
> Mr. Soros spurred the Ferguson protest movement through years of funding and mobilizing groups across the U.S., according to interviews with key players and financial records reviewed by The Washington Times.
> 
> ..........
> 
> In all, Mr. Soros gave at least $33 million in one year to support already-established groups that emboldened the grass-roots, on-the-ground activists in Ferguson, according to the most recent tax filings of his nonprofit Open Society Foundations.
> The financial tether from Mr. Soros to the activist groups gave rise to a combustible protest movement that transformed a one-day criminal event in Missouri into a 24-hour-a-day national cause celebre.


Back in the time of the Vietnam war, there was a lot of violence from the leftist anti-war movement: marches that turned violent,even bombings.

In Europe there was co-operation between Communist groups and Palestinian terrorists.

Carlos the Jackal was a Venezuelan Communist who aided the Arabs. 

Look for the coalition of Black groups, socialist,revolutionary leftist groups and Muslim groups to become active now . 

Soros' money is in some cases behind it.

The right doesn't have a monopoly on violence.


----------



## wraphter

The shooting of 2 New York policemen was partially politically motivated . The shooter wanted revenge for the police killings
of Michael Brown and Eric Garner. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_killings_of_NYPD_officers



> Ismaaiyl Abdullah Brinsley (October 31, 1986 – December 20, 2014) had a long criminal record and was estranged from his family prior to the shooting. He was born in Brooklyn to a Muslim African-American family. He had an arrest record for weapons possession and robbery, which amounted to a total of 19 arrests in Georgia and Ohio. He was convicted of felony gun possession in Georgia, where he was living at the time of the shooting.[21][22] *Brinsley allegedly had ties to the Black Guerrilla Family, a prison gang that was reportedly planning revenge attacks on police officers according to police informants, and the Nuwaubian Nation, a black-supremacist cult originating in Georgia.*[23] An unnamed federal law enforcement source has been quoted as saying there were no apparent ties.[24] Daniel McCall, who was appointed to represent Brinsley in Georgia, said Brinsley was not difficult to represent and that no psychiatric problems were noticed at that time.[9]
> On the day of the attack, Brinsley had tried to commit suicide with his gun before killing the police officers, but he was talked out of it by his girlfriend, whom he then shot.[25] Brinsley also attempted suicide a year previously.[22][26] After the shooting, Brinsley reportedly called Thompson's mother and other family members and claimed the shooting was an accident.[27] Brinsley wrote on his Instagram account of his intentions to kill police as retribution for the recent deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner.* In the post, which he made later that day while on a bus to New York City, he wrote, "I'm putting Wings on Pigs Today ... They Take 1 of Ours ... Lets Take 2 of Theirs. [sic]*"[28] By then, the Baltimore County Police Department had been tracking Brinsley's movements from Baltimore to New York City, and sent a fax to the NYPD about his intentions just a minute before the killings occurred.[29]


----------



## lonewolf :)

Apparently Soros is huge supporter & is responsible for helping bring in Moslims into Europe & US. Over half a billion want to kill the none believers. There is a huge problem while political correctness & fear of being called a racist has most doing nothing about it.

Body bag Hillary & her foundation is no Saint


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> I'll be blunt: I think the alt-right radicals have put a "hit" out on George Soros, or are working up towards it. They might do the same with other political/ideological enemies. Not at all surprising when you consider that the alt-right is fundamentally a white supremacist movement; they are extremists.
> 
> http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/alt-right-a-primer-about-the.html
> 
> Soros has funded movements encouraging racial equality, and funds people pursuing careers in the racial justice field. My theory is that the white supremacists have identified him as an enemy, and are -- via their crazy propaganda machine -- motivating people to "do something". Remember that white supremacists _perceive a battle_ between white interests and those who who are taking power away from them. Soros helps take power away from them, and the fact he is Jewish is probably icing on the cake for the alt-right.
> 
> In my opinion this is clear cut terrorism, and the alt-right is a terrorist movement. Now they are radicalizing people and inciting violence or even murder. They are funded and have a propaganda machine composed of cooperating media outlets and conservative/evangelical christian broadcasting networks. The man who fired his gun inside the pizza place Sunday was likely a terrorist who has been radicalized by this movement.
> 
> I'm increasingly thinking that the *alt-right conspiracy theories are strategic* with a goal of physical action, carried out by recruits. The stories resonate well with unbalanced young men, or mentally ill people such as those who might get whipped up into a frenzy and do something violent. The pizza restaurant shooting is one example of this playing out (whipped up by propaganda about Hillary Clinton being extremely evil, a monster).


LOL-Soros seeds destruction on a massive scale, openly brags about it-and anyone who points this truth out is a bad person-sorry pal but IMO Jimmy Beach is a little Terrorist.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> LOL-Soros seeds destruction on a massive scale, openly brags about it-and anyone who points this truth out is a bad person-sorry pal but IMO Jimmy Beach is a little Terrorist.


LOL, do you ask your mommy to look under the bed in case George Soros is there?


----------



## james4beach

Right, nobody was hurt by the Sunday gunman at the restaurant. But the fact that alt-right conspiracy theories motivated a man to show up with guns at a restaurant -- and shoot -- shows the problem. The crazy conspiracy theories _aren't just fun stories_, they can lead to violence


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Gee, you might have included the little detail that nobody was hurt. Its those tiny details that matter so much.



in your view it's OK to walk around firing off weapons, then, as long as no bullets happen to hit anyone?


.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Right, nobody was hurt by the Sunday gunman at the restaurant. But the fact that alt-right conspiracy theories motivated a man to show up with guns at a restaurant -- and shoot -- shows the problem. The crazy conspiracy theories _aren't just fun stories_, they can lead to violence


Your basic premise-which is the MSM tells the truth and the alternative media (internet based media) lies is becoming less popular every day-the portion of the public which is interested in the news/current events increasingly does not agree with you.


----------



## james4beach

No, my basic premise is that ANY group that steers its followers towards extreme views, hatred and violence is dangerous -- and a threat to our civilized society and our way of life.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> No, my basic premise is that ANY group that steers its followers towards extreme views, hatred and violence is dangerous -- and a threat to our civilized society and our way of life.


Increasingly, the public feels that YOUR views are leading towards hatred and violence. Look-here is an example-France tried it your way 100% and it has been a monumental failure-thus the rise of Le Pen. Your views are somewhat of a threat to any civilized society.


----------



## olivaw

Despite the sideshow and blunders, there is still hope for Trump ......

BBC: *Al Gore meets Donald Trump and Ivanka for climate talks*



> Former Vice President Al Gore has met President-elect Donald Trump and his daughter Ivanka Trump to discuss climate policy.
> 
> The meeting "was a sincere search for areas of common ground," said Mr Gore, a climate change activist.


----------



## sags

This will be a heartbreaking news to conservatives............Al Gore is despised by Republicans.

Ivanka Trump is the most powerful voice in the Trump administration and she has progressive liberal views.

I am thinking the Republicans may have had their aces "trumped".

Donald Trump is spending more time consulting with leading Democrats than Republicans.


----------



## sags

A week before Trump received the phone call from Taiwan, the Chinese had two nuclear capable bombers fly around the island.

It makes one wonder if the two incidents are connected, with the Chinese sending a message and Taiwan seeking Trump's assurances.

He isn't even in office yet and already the games begin. The CIA had warned the new President would be tested early.

An excellent article by Peter Morici, a Trump supporter and economist, on China and a possible showdown with the US.

Interesting that China is now focusing on replacing the high tech industries in the US and how unfair the "free trade" really is.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/12/05/economist-trump-must-prepare-for-showdown-with-china.html


----------



## olivaw

If the Chinese are testing the American president-elect then he will need to be prepared on day one. Let's hope that he finds time for the *daily security briefings*. 

*He might also want to talk to State*. 

North Korea, Syria and Russia will also test him quickly.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> If the Chinese are testing the American president-elect then he will need to be prepared on day one. Let's hope that he finds time for the *daily security briefings*.
> 
> *He might also want to talk to State*.
> 
> North Korea, Syria and Russia will also test him quickly.


On the contrary, the aggressor,the one doing the testing,the one who stole a march, is Trump.

He made the first move by taking the phone call from the president of Taiwan.

Marc Thiessen was George W.'s speech writer.He says Trump's move was brilliant.
North Korea,Russia,and Syria(probably not a threat,they're kind of busy) also received the message that the new guy is no pushover(like the last guy)



> Trump’s Taiwan call wasn’t a blunder. It was brilliant.
> 
> Relax.
> 
> Breathe.
> 
> Donald Trump’s phone call with the president of Taiwan wasn’t a blunder by an inexperienced president-elect unschooled in the niceties of cross-straits diplomacy.
> 
> It was a deliberate move — and a brilliant one at that.
> 
> he phone call with President Tsai Ing-wen was reportedly carefully planned, and Trump was fully briefed before the call, according to The Post. It’s not that Trump was unfamiliar with the “Three Communiques” or unaware of the fiction that there is “One China.” Trump knew precisely what he was doing in taking the call. He was serving notice on Beijing that it is dealing with a different kind of president — an outsider who will not be encumbered by the same Lilliputian diplomatic threads that tied down previous administrations. *The message, as John Bolton correctly put it, was that “the president of the United States [will] talk to whomever he wants if he thinks it’s in the interest of the United States, and nobody in Beijing gets to dictate who we talk to.”*
> 
> ...........
> 
> And if that message was lost on Beijing, Trump underscored it on Sunday, tweeting: “Did China ask us if it was OK to devalue their currency (making it hard for our companies to compete), heavily tax our products going into their country (the U.S. doesn’t tax them) or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don’t think so!” He does not need Beijing’s permission to speak to anyone. No more kowtowing in a Trump administration.
> 
> ..........
> 
> Well, if they didn’t like that phone call, his critics may hate what could come next even more. Trump now has an opportunity to do with Taiwan what Obama did with Cuba — normalize relations.
> 
> There are a number of steps the Trump administration can take to strengthen our military, economic and diplomatic ties with Taiwan. My American Enterprise Institute colleague Derek Scissors has suggested that Trump could negotiate a new free-trade agreement with Taiwan. “Taiwan’s tiny population means there is no jobs threat,” Scissors says, but Taiwan is also the United States’ ninth-largest trading partner. A free-trade agreement would be economically beneficial to both sides and would send a message to friend and foe alike in Asia that, despite Trump’s planned withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the United States is not withdrawing from the region.


The Chinese response so far has been muted.

As the Chinese allegedly say " May you live in interesting times."


----------



## olivaw

John Bolton is a GW Bush era neocon. More of a Murica Murica Murica guy that a deep thinker. 





The Chinese have made their displeasure known. Putin must be beside himself with glee.


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> No, my basic premise is that ANY group that steers its followers towards extreme views, hatred and violence is dangerous -- and a threat to our civilized society and our way of life.


So what is the threat to out way of life? Obama has said that Muslims in America do not pose an 'existential' threat to America. But he may be minimizing the problem. Fear of Islamic influence was skillfully use by Trump to attain the presidency. Anti-immigrant sentiment has played a large role in the shift to the right in French,English and various European politics. There has been an upsurge in authoritarianism
as a response to immigration of people who have different values from the native population.

'Our way of life' heretofore has included sovereignty over our destiny. Whites feel they will lose the power to control
their lives as the number of immigrants grow.

Psychologist Jonathan Haidt explains the problem: 



> What on earth is going on in the Western democracies? From the rise of Donald Trump in the United States and an assortment of right-wing parties across Europe through the June 23 Brexit vote, many on the Left have the sense that something dangerous and ugly is spreading: right-wing populism, seen as the Zika virus of politics. Something has gotten into “those people” that makes them vote in ways that seem—to their critics—likely to harm their own material interests, at least if their leaders follow through in implementing isolationist policies that slow economic growth.
> 
> ...........
> 
> A smaller set of analyses, particularly in the United States, has focused on the psychological trait of authoritarianism to explain why these populist movements are often so hostile to immigration, and why they usually have an outright racist fringe.
> ..........
> 
> People don’t hate others just because they have darker skin or differently shaped noses; they hate people whom they perceive as having values that are incompatible with their own, or who (they believe) engage in behaviors they find abhorrent, or whom they perceive to be a threat to something they hold dear. These moral concerns may be out of touch with reality, and they are routinely amplified by demagogues. But if we want to understand the recent rise of right-wing populist movements, then “racism” can’t be the stopping point; it must be the beginning of the inquiry.
> 
> ...........
> 
> *It’s as though some people have a button on their foreheads, and when the button is pushed, they suddenly become intensely focused on defending their in-group, kicking out foreigners and non-conformists, and stamping out dissent within the group. At those times they are more attracted to strongmen and the use of force. At other times, when they perceive no such threat, they are not unusually intolerant. So the key is to understand what pushes that button.*
> 
> ........
> So authoritarians are not being selfish. They are not trying to protect their wallets or even their families. They are trying to protect their group or society. Some authoritarians see their race or bloodline as the thing to be protected, and these people make up the deeply racist subset of right-wing populist movements, including the fringe that is sometimes attracted to neo-Nazism. They would not even accept immigrants who fully assimilated to the culture. But more typically, in modern Europe and America, it is the nation and its culture that nationalists want to preserve.


So the right-wing authoritarianism you deplore is a response to the perceived threat of Muslim immigration. There is almost a cause and effect relationship involved.

So if governments would reduce the threat of immigration the right-wing resistance would subside. If the number of immigrants that are threatening were drastically reduced the right-wing reaction would diminish as well.



> First and foremost: Think carefully about the way your country handles immigration and try to manage it in a way that is less likely to provoke an authoritarian reaction. Pay attention to three key variables: the percentage of foreign-born residents at any given time, the degree of moral difference of each incoming group, and the degree of assimilation being achieved by each group’s children.
> ...........
> 
> But whenever a country has historically high levels of immigration, from countries with very different moralities, and without a strong and successful assimilationist program, it is virtually certain that there will be an authoritarian counter-reaction, and you can expect many status quo conservatives to support it.


----------



## new dog

Wraphter we tried this math before and many people on the left can't understand it. Increase muslim nut cases through immigration and you get an increase in white supremacists. You also get an increase of people who hate Jews, gays and so on.


----------



## new dog

I should add they also only select white people as being the bad guys. They don't care about BLM or any other kind of racism, which gives an even stronger message to white people who might think it is a good idea to follow white supremacists, as the only ones protecting their interests.


----------



## wraphter

hello new dog.

Here is a quote from james' overheated imagination



> I'll be blunt: I think the alt-right radicals have put a "hit" out on George Soros, or are working up towards it. They might do the same with other political/ideological enemies. Not at all surprising when you consider that the alt-right is fundamentally a white supremacist movement; they are extremists.
> 
> http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/do...about-the.html
> 
> Soros has funded movements encouraging racial equality, and funds people pursuing careers in the racial justice field. My theory is that the white supremacists have identified him as an enemy, and are -- via their crazy propaganda machine -- motivating people to "do something". Remember that white supremacists perceive a battle between white interests and those who who are taking power away from them. Soros helps take power away from them, and the fact he is Jewish is probably icing on the cake for the alt-right.
> 
> In my opinion this is clear cut terrorism, and the alt-right is a terrorist movement.


He 'thinks' that the alt right wants to murder Soros. He doesn't provide any information : maybe he is keeping it secret.
Then he says the alt right are really all white supremacists. What these terms mean is not defined.
Then he says it is a terrorist organization. It seems he is trying to turn the tables. Instead of Muslims being called terrorists
now a certain group of whites are the terrorists.

I suggest james should talk to law enforcement if he has such good information about an impending hit.
Of course he doesn't trust law enforcement in the person of the US border guards,who tend to download personal pictures of females on cell phones . So that would be a problem.

Also the alt right is also present in Alberta , namely Ezra Levant. James is on the case.

Be careful crossing the border james.


----------



## sags

Trump nominates Ben Carson as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development.

Carson has no managerial experience and knows nothing about housing development.........but he has stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.


----------



## new dog

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/us/politics/ben-carson-housing-urban-development-trump.html?_r=0

The Dems and the media will criticize anyone Trump chooses to do anything. I think Carson is a smart guy and a good pick and adds colour to his team which I am sure the Dems would criticize Trump about.


----------



## olivaw

Ben Carson announced that Joseph built the Egyptian pyramids to store grain.

'nuff said?


----------



## olivaw

*US Power Will Decline Under Trump, Says Futurist Who Predicted Soviet Collapse.* 



> Johan Galtung, a Nobel Peace Prize-nominated sociologist who predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union, warned that US global power will collapse under the Donald Trump administration.





> Galtung has also accurately predicted the 1978 Iranian revolution; the Tiananmen Square uprising of 1989 in China; the economic crises of 1987, 2008 and 2011; and even the 9/11 attacks—among other events, according to the late Dietrich Fischer, academic director of the European University Center for Peace Studies.





> [Galtung sets out] 15 “synchronizing and mutually reinforcing contradictions” afflicting the US, which he says will lead to US global power ending by 2020—within just four years. Galtung warned that during this phase of decline, the US was likely to go through a phase of reactionary “fascism”.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw's linked article said:


> In 1980, Galtung used his theoretical model to map the interaction of various social contradictions inside the Soviet empire, leading him to predict its demise within 10 years.
> 
> “Very few believed him at the time”, writes Dietrich Fischer in the main biography and anthology of Galtung’s works, Pioneer for Peace, “but it occurred on November 9, 1989, two months before his time limit, 1990.”


In fact the Soviet Union didn't collapse on November 9,1989. On that day East Germans  were allowed to travel to West Germany. 




> In a press conference on Nov. 9, 1989 GDR central committee spokesman Guenter Schabowski unintentionally announced that citizens could travel to West Germany immediately. It was the beginning of the end for East Germany.


The Soviet Union collapsed on December 26,1991.




> The Soviet Union was dissolved on December 26, 1991, as a result of the declaration no. 142-Н of the Soviet of the Republics of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union.[1] The declaration acknowledged the independence of the former Soviet republics and created the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), although five of the signatories ratified it much later or not at all. On the previous day, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, the eighth and final leader of the Soviet Union, resigned, declared his office extinct, and handed over its powers – including control of the Soviet nuclear missile launching codes – to Russian President Boris Yeltsin. That evening at 7:32 p.m., the Soviet flag was lowered from the Kremlin for the last time and replaced with the pre-revolutionary Russian flag.[2]


You also were wrong about how many murders were committed by Muslims in the US post 9/11. Your linked to this

NYT article



> In the 14 years since Al Qaeda carried out attacks on New York and the Pentagon, extremists have regularly executed smaller lethal assaults in the United States, explaining their motives in online manifestoes or social media rants.
> 
> But the breakdown of extremist ideologies behind those attacks may come as a surprise. Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: *48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, including the recent mass killing in Charleston, S.C., compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.*


However 26 is not the right number. Your NYT piece is dated June 24,2015. There were two well known attacks after that date.

San Bernadino--- December 2,2015 , 14 dead 

Orlando-----------June 12,2016, 49 killed

So the total killed by Muslims is 26+ 14+ 49= 89 at least.

This is a lot higher than the 48 killed by non-Muslims.


----------



## sags

General Flynn's son has been released from the Trump transition team.

This issue was some tweets the young man made public and Trump ordered that he be dismissed from the team.

There was an interview of someone who sat beside Eric Trump on a flight and he said his father is a master at getting television time and used his outrageous tweets and comments to gather as much free air time as he could. His son said Trump doesn't actually believe any of the stuff he tweeted, but used it to get elected.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> General Flynn's son has been released from the Trump transition team.
> 
> This issue was some tweets the young man made public and Trump ordered that he be dismissed from the team.
> 
> There was an interview of someone who sat beside Eric Trump on a flight and he said his father is a master at getting television time and used his outrageous tweets and comments to gather as much free air time as he could. His son said Trump doesn't actually believe any of the stuff he tweeted, but used it to get elected.


 Undocumented Internet gossip is so amusing.


----------



## sags

Ben Carson is going to have his hands full at HUD.

I am all in favor of giving people an opportunity, providing good shelter and a "hand up", but when I had my delivery business I had my eyes opened a little when delivering to "government housing". The conditions were deplorable and it was the tenants who were doing the damage.

I was in one complex of town homes at night and had to return to my car to get a flashlight, because every light in the complex was busted. Every screen door had the screens ripped and the doors were falling off on their hinges.

In an apartment building, the walls were filled with graffiti and there was garbage everywhere. When the lobby was under construction to replace all the tiles and put in new elevators, the work was being destroyed as fast as the construction guys were putting it up.

On the other hand, I visited some "church sponsored coops" and they were immaculately maintained.

It left me thinking that a big government organization running housing is a mistake and the money should be given to small church groups to build and maintain the units.

Pride of ownership is an important concept and if the tenants don't own the properties, at least the church groups would.
Church groups also have a base of supporters who can volunteer to maintain the properties to keep the costs down.

When the government owns it........nobody seems to accept personal responsibility for it.

Just my thoughts............but that is how I would run a government agency on public housing.


----------



## sags

wraphter said:


> Undocumented Internet gossip is so amusing.


Actually it was an interview on television........CNN I believe.


----------



## sags

wraphter said:


> Undocumented Internet gossip is so amusing.


Trump isn't in office yet and already he has rolled back on some pledges and right wing policies.

No wall on the Mexican border. No Muslim ban on US entry. No change to gay marriage. 

Trump "saved" US jobs at Carrier with government cash (socialism) and is going to cancel Air Force project at Boeing just as Obama did to Marine One........no corporate welfare for them, but Trump did leave the door open for a much lower price.

So far, Trump is doing what he wants using the tools he has refined......not what he necessarily pledged on the campaign trail.

Kellyanne Conway has repeatedly said that Trump owes no allegiance to anyone.

Not the Democrats, Republicans or the Koch brothers, and certainly not the alt right and conspiracy nuts.

It appears to me that the Republicans haven't fully absorbed it yet, as they plan "their" agenda in the legislatures.

Trump doesn't care about their agenda. He has one of his own.

Interesting times ahead. I am apprehensive about Trump's Presidency.......but hopeful I am wrong.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Trump isn't in office yet and already he has rolled back on some pledges and right wing policies.


And you're surprised why? Because you and others here were taking every promise of his literally, like shooting Iranian ships out of the water?


----------



## wraphter

> No wall on the Mexican border. No Muslim ban on US entry.


So far there hasn't been much news on these topics. We shall see in the future.


----------



## sags

SMK said:


> And you're surprised why? Because you and others here were taking every promise of his literally, like shooting Iranian ships out of the water?


True..........and I will be happy to admit he fooled me, but will the alt right and Republicans be as happy ?

I have wondered why Trump doesn't come out and cut the alt right......KKK and such.......to ribbons on his Twitter account. He does that so proficiently that he leaves permanent scar tissue.

And then I think......Pizzagate and a nut case with a rifle goes in shooting, and maybe Trump has been advised by the Secret Service not to rile up the wackos with guns too much right now. They have enough to deal with already.


----------



## kcowan

sags said:


> Trump doesn't care about their agenda. He has one of his own.
> 
> Interesting times ahead. I am apprehensive about Trump's Presidency.......but hopeful I am wrong.


I guess you don't appreciate the unpredictability of a reality show. Trump does nothing without thinking it through. If it does not produce the desired outcome, he will adapt. Have no fear sags.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> True..........and I will be happy to admit he fooled me, but will the alt right and Republicans be as happy ?


You have to admit at long last that a lot of what he promised was pure fantasy, most of his supporters knew this but didn't care because they wanted change, so they were anything but unsuspecting suckers-victims.

How many people will now admit though, that no other person than Trump deserved to be named Time Person of the Year? :biggrin:


----------



## wraphter

> No wall on the Mexican border.


Not literally, but there will be a barrier to keep out illegals.



> The Mexican border wall that Donald Trump promised in the campaign doesn’t really have to be a wall, says Representative Dennis Ross, a member of the president-elect’s transition team.
> “The ‘wall’ is a term to help understand it, to describe it,” says Ross, a Florida Republican, adding that it “really means ‘security.’ It could be a fence. It could be open surveillance to prevent people from crossing. It does not mean an actual wall.”
> 
> Even the president-elect’s closest allies in Congress are working to redefine Trump’s top campaign promise, which many view as too costly and impractical for securing the 1,933-mile border with Mexico. Most illegal immigration can be halted with fencing, more Border Patrol agents and drones, they contend. House Speaker Paul Ryan on Sunday suggested using approaches that simply make the most sense.
> “Conditions on the ground determine what you need in a particular area,” Ryan said in an interview on CBS’s “60 Minutes.”
> 
> The president-elect faces perhaps more political pressure to produce results on this issue than on any other. An Oct. 25-Nov. 8 Pew Research Center poll found that 79 percent of registered voters backing him saw illegal immigration as a “very big problem.” Smaller percentages named other issues such as terrorism or jobs for working-class Americans.


----------



## sags

I think it probably means hiring 5,000 more unionized border patrol guards, considering Trump's support by the union.

Republicans promoting unions with government money.........who would have thought it possible.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> In fact the Soviet Union didn't collapse on November 9,1989. On that day East Germans  were allowed to travel to West Germany. The Soviet Union collapsed on December 26,1991.


Thanks for the trivia from wiki. The scientist was, in your opinion, off by a few months. You realize that it makes zero difference to his credibility?



wraphter said:


> You also were wrong about how many murders were committed by Muslims in the US post 9/11. Your linked to this


Yeah, I posted an old link. How many times have you brought it up? How many different threads? You realize that it makes zero difference to the point that I was making? 

I noted that other posters have said that you are a white supremacists. Are you?


----------



## sags

I think the media should stop covering small groups of wacko supremacists. The media coverage is elevating their platform to a national level.

A person can go into a big corporation and find a few hundred wackos that slipped through the hiring process.

Lord knows............I often wondered how some of my fellow employees ever managed to get hired.

Did I ever tell you about the guy who stood in front of the general supervisors office window and dropped his pants.............?


----------



## olivaw

Who hasn't dreamed of dropping trou in front of the supervisor's office?


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Did I ever tell you about the guy who stood in front of the general supervisors office window and dropped his pants



then there was the famous personnage who dropped & sat on the camera plate of the photocopy machine

have u ever done a photocopy of your bare hand? it's eerily accurate, kind of resembles an X-ray


.


----------



## humble_pie

do u think wraphters was the kind of grim teacher who gave detentions where you had to write out _I will do my homework on time_ 500 times?


----------



## new dog

Forum buddies might like this interview of congressman on Fox's Tucker Carlson show. He accuses Tucker of basically being a Russian agent. Start the video at 6:30 and hear it for yourself. Of course because it isn't from a sure left media site, even though it is real, it still must not be real. I am sure the left forum buddies can push the square in this round hole.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvMeGugrt1g


----------



## sags

Populism is popular until people get it.......and then they don't like it anymore.


----------



## olivaw

Trump lost the popular vote. He's unpopular for a populist.


----------



## new dog

Vote rigging aside I understand why the system was set up this way. If it wasn't many of the smaller population states wouldn't even want to be in the United States because their voice would be ignored.


----------



## sags

olivaw said:


> Trump lost the popular vote. He's unpopular for a populist.


Clinton was just as unpopular as Trump and that is her failure.

Losing the rust belt states is incomprehensible for the Democrats, as Bernie Sanders has noted publicly.

The Clinton campaign took their core supporters for granted and wasted valuable time and resources trying to expand into GOP territory.

Overconfidence inspired the saying............snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.


----------



## sags

With almost every cabinet appointment, Trump seems to be filling the leadership roles with people who have vowed to dismantle the agencies.

It may be good for slogans and marketing, but dismantling huge agencies upon which millions of Americans depend is not a simple task.

If Trump doesn't have sound policies to replace what it looks like will be destroyed, all he will have created is a pile of rubble.

I thought it would be a year or two before the Trump Presidency is mired in controversy, failures and major civil unrest.

Now I am thinking it may happen in as little time as 6 months.


----------



## olivaw

The electoral college wasn't set up to protect smaller states. It was created as a safeguard against the election of an "inappropriate" candidate (some historians argue that "inappropriate" originally meant abolitionist).

Trump's transition approval sits at a pitiful 40%. 

Hillary Clinton received 2.5 million more votes than Trump.

The EC is "expected" to elect Trump on Dec 19th.


----------



## sags

Clinton was the "should have", "could have"........"didn't" candidate.

Using a sports analogy, how many times has a sports team been well ahead and gone into a defensive mode to wind down the clock......and then lose momentum and the game ?

You have to keep charging ahead in all things you want to be successful at and keep working hard until the buzzer sounds.

When Clinton was off on the sidelines sipping water, Trump kept playing and was scheduling more events.

He dominated the news cycle and captured the momentum.

It was only after they recognized that momentum had shifted, the big guns for the Democrats.....Obama, Biden, came out guns blazing.

It was too late by then. The voters had already made their choice.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> It was only after they recognized that momentum had shifted, the big guns for the Democrats.....Obama, Biden, came out guns blazing.


So did the Hollywood stars, Madonna, J.Z LOL.

Last Liberals Standing. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...ottawa-visit-a-seinfeldian-trip-about-nothing
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...u-and-merkel-as-last-liberal-leaders-standing


----------



## olivaw

2.7 million more voters chose to support Hillary. Both campaigns thought that Hillary would win both the popular and the Electoral College vote. They were both half wrong. 

More importantly, Trump appears to lack the support that Americans typically afford the president-elect. 

The Electoral College has not yet voted. *Michael Moore has predicted that Donald Trump will not be president when the Electoral College casts its votes*. Conventional thinking is that Michael Moore is wrong and the EC will remain vote for the candidate. 

When Moore predicted that Trump would win PA, MI, WI conventional thinking was that he was wrong.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Trump lost the popular vote. He's unpopular for a populist.


Yeah,but he won the Electoral College.

She knew the rules of the game.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Yeah,but he won the Electoral College.


Not yet. They vote on Dec 19th.


----------



## new dog

If they somehow overthrow him as Moore predicts then states will want to separate and there could be a civil war down south. You can also expect white supremacy to skyrocket as well as adding islamic haters into the country by the boatload. It will be a horrible result for the left but they will be too dumb to know it. Anyway Trump is playing nice by adding a Goldman Sachs Gary Cohn as the National Economic Council Director. No one is happy to see any Goldman Sachs on board but there you go. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/trum...or-national-economic-council-director-2016-12

So I wouldn't be too worried if I was a liberal but then again liberals don't seem to think things out very well.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Not yet. They vote on Dec 19th.


You want to bet?

$100 says yes .


----------



## SMK

Hillary did not win the popular vote because of popularity, but simply because it was a hold your nose type election. One can understand why some still have a hard time accepting or understanding the results since only twice this century has the winner lost the popular vote. :crushed:


----------



## olivaw

I make no prediction. Just looking at the evidence:
- Trump lost the popular vote. 
- His transition has been disappointing to many Americans
- He attacks ordinary people on twitter
- His conflicts of interests are so over the top as to be beyond any semblance of propriety. 
- He chooses inappropriate individuals to head important departments

On the other hand:
- He can draw people to a rally. 
- He received a few more votes in Dem states like MI, PA and WI. 
- Obama believes that the EC will vote for Trump. So do most pundits and experts. 

Please return to your sports analogies, bets and gloating. The EC vote won't be until Dec 19th.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> 2.7 million more voters chose to support Hillary. Both campaigns thought that Hillary would win both the popular and the Electoral College vote. They were both half wrong.
> 
> More importantly, Trump appears to lack the support that Americans typically afford the president-elect.
> 
> The Electoral College has not yet voted. *Michael Moore has predicted that Donald Trump will not be president when the Electoral College casts its votes*. Conventional thinking is that Michael Moore is wrong and the EC will remain vote for the candidate.
> 
> When Moore predicted that Trump would win PA, MI, WI conventional thinking was that he was wrong.


Anyone with financial investments better hope Soros isn't able to pull that one off-it would literally be a coup of the major economic power-anyways here is an entertaining video showing the MSM hacks and sheep fretting about Trump https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwgMByZ2ieM


----------



## new dog

Info wars is a good source for outing the left and the media. I know they go off on their own on other stuff.

However Nelley Humble is going to have a fit because you posted a dung level media source. CNN is the gold standard and CBC is probably platinum so that would probably put info wars at the dung level.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> Info wars is a good source for outing the left and the media. I know they go off on their own on other stuff.
> 
> However Nelley Humble is going to have a fit because you posted a dung level media source. CNN is the gold standard and CBC is probably platinum so that would probably put info wars at the dung level.


The list of major fake news sources is long-CNN, CBC, BBC, NPR, TIME, NYT, Wash Post, etc.etc.etc.


----------



## sags

Infowars isn't a news website.....real or fake.

It is nothing more than a malicious website promoting the most vile of propaganda to make money from stupid people.

Anyone who promotes such things as the Sandy Hook massacre of innocent children was a government hoax......completely lacks any morals.

A Florida woman was just arrested for sending death threats to a parent of a 6 year old boy killed at Sandy Hook, accusing him of being in on the government "conspiracy".

She was no doubt "inspired" by Infowars and other conspiracy websites.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ath-threats-against-sandy-hook-parent-n693396

And Alex Jones is now claiming to be a "victim" of political correctness ?

How would any of the supporters of such websites like it if they were "outed".......as in Pizzagate, and their names and addresses publicly available with crazy accusations of pedophilia rings and devil worship ?

I wonder how this woman charged in Florida likes her name and picture in the media.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Anyone with financial investments better hope Soros isn't able to pull that one off-it would literally be a coup of the major economic power-anyways here is an entertaining video showing the MSM hacks and sheep fretting about Trump https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwgMByZ2ieM


George Soros donated 10M to combat hate crimes. He seems like a good guy.


----------



## andrewf

wraphter said:


> Yeah,but he won the Electoral College.
> 
> She knew the rules of the game.


Sure, but he has a weak mandate. He's among the least popular newly elected presidents in history.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> Info wars is a good source for outing the left and the media. I know they go off on their own on other stuff.
> 
> However Nelley Humble is going to have a fit because you posted a dung level media source. CNN is the gold standard and CBC is probably platinum so that would probably put info wars at the dung level.


Also a great source for your alien abduction and Satan-sighting news.


----------



## new dog

Don't forget the Sandy Hook thing Sags mentioned. Of course I know what is going on but again they do a good job banging the left. The mainstream does a good job banging the right, again we should all know this. In fact we should give info wars the gold standard for left banging. 

Olivaw Soros makes his money back through his disruptions. He is giving money to promote the buddies of Islam through the back door not to mention the BLM movement.


----------



## olivaw

*A secret CIA assessment said that Russia was trying to help Trump win White House*. 

*President Obama has ordered a full review*. Republicans Lindsay Graham and John McCain back the president. President-elect Trump opposes.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> *A secret CIA assessment said that Russia was trying to help Trump win White House*.
> 
> *President Obama has ordered a full review*. Republicans Lindsay Graham and John McCain back the president. President-elect Trump opposes.


Luckily for you the CIA has such a stellar track record of telling the truth to the stupid sheep.


----------



## new dog

Many western leader were doing the same for Hillary. Trudeau is one of the few who wouldn't get involved so I give him credit for that.


----------



## SMK

^ Neither did Pena Nieto, LOL, but I agree with Trudeau's tact on this one also, not with Mulcair's, who wouldn't have made the "fascist" comments either had he been the PM.


----------



## sags

It will be interesting to see how deep Russia's intrusions go inside the government and corporate computer systems.

A recent and widespread DDOS "attack" on computer systems across the US is suspected as coming from the same sources. It is considered a "probing" of defenses. Starting on the west coast of the US, it spread systematically across the country to the east coast, which was evidence of a calculated effort of probing defenses.

This matters a great deal beyond election interference and delves deeply into the realm of national security.

The first shots fired in an imminent war will be unheard. They will be happening in space or through the internet.

The goal will be to shut down military defenses and create widespread interruptions and panic. 

The banking system, GPS systems, water systems, nuclear plants, air flight control, traffic systems, rail systems.... etc.

Such an attack would create chaos. Airplanes would fall from the sky. Trains would collide. Roads would be gridlocked.

Amidst the chaos and panic, the missiles would come.

One very big concern is that governments can't decipher between a "probing" and a real attack. The country defense system alerts are raised.

In short, an informational "black hole" puts everyone on a war footing and it is a dangerous place to be.

It is one reason the US recently confirmed a "shoot first" policy is still in place. They will not wait until missiles start falling from the sky.

Russia is playing a very dangerous game and the US will respond if they believe the threat of war is real.


----------



## sags

The CIA is one of many government agencies that protect US national security.

Recently, for the first time in history, they have allowed some access to the top levels of defense.

They aren't doing so to provide television entertainment. They are sending a message to Russia and others.

They are saying.........we know what you are doing and you had better stop.........or else.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> It will be interesting to see how deep Russia's intrusions go inside the government and corporate computer systems.
> 
> A recent and widespread DDOS "attack" on computer systems across the US is suspected as coming from the same sources. It is considered a "probing" of defenses. Starting on the west coast of the US, it spread systematically across the country to the east coast, which was evidence of a calculated effort of probing defenses.
> 
> This matters a great deal beyond election interference and delves deeply into the realm of national security.
> 
> The first shots fired in an imminent war will be unheard. They will be happening in space or through the internet.
> 
> The goal will be to shut down military defenses and create widespread interruptions and panic.
> 
> The banking system, GPS systems, water systems, nuclear plants, air flight control, traffic systems, rail systems.... etc.
> 
> Such an attack would create chaos. Airplanes would fall from the sky. Trains would collide. Roads would be gridlocked.
> 
> Amidst the chaos and panic, the missiles would come.
> 
> One very big concern is that governments can't decipher between a "probing" and a real attack. The country defense system alerts are raised.
> 
> In short, an informational "black hole" puts everyone on a war footing and it is a dangerous place to be.
> 
> It is one reason the US recently confirmed a "shoot first" policy is still in place. They will not wait until missiles start falling from the sky.
> 
> Russia is playing a very dangerous game and the US will respond if they believe the threat of war is real.





i believe the situation in north america is much more advanced than a few peeks at hacked computer networks would suggest.

right now canada - possibly along with NORAD - is re-arming the cold war radar lines with state-of-the-art multi mission radar systems (MMRs for short) that carry the israeli IAI Elta radar technology, which canada bought last year.

the devices are large but mobile force multipliers - they are truck-mounted - that can be integrated into a weapons system. Manufacture of the MMRs is being carried out here in canada. The first of the new systems will be delivered in early 2017. 

to house them, teams of military are meanwhile re-building some of the old abandoned cold war radar bases. Most of these had been dismantled by the 1970s.

what i don't know is to what extent NORAD is implicated in this new re-arming of the north. The original radar stations were all NORAD installations. Although nothing has been officially announced, it does not seem likely that tiny canada would go it alone when it comes to the radar-dependent defence of north America.


http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1009679

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...ncements-up-next-radars-for-the-canadian-army


.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> The CIA is one of many government agencies that protect US national security.
> 
> Recently, for the first time in history, they have allowed some access to the top levels of defense.
> 
> They aren't doing so to provide television entertainment. They are sending a message to Russia and others.
> 
> They are saying.........we know what you are doing and you had better stop.........or else.


The problem is anywhere from 70-80% of Americans don't buy this BS you are selling. That is why Trump was elected-the latest MSM spin is Russia is attacking Merkel (another dirty puppet).


----------



## olivaw

Trump has fired back ........ at the CIA. 

His transition team said


> "These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history. It's now time to move on and 'Make America Great Again.'"


Hack-deniers and Russians demand proof. They know that the CIA will not release sources and technologies. 

President Obama will have the report before the end of his term. He may not release the full report but if he chooses to make a public statement it will be covered and it will be believed.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> The problem is anywhere from 70-80% of Americans don't buy this BS you are selling. That is why Trump was elected



of course americans & canadians are buying it. That is why the cold war radar lines are being re-built across canada with the latest radar technology.

the decision was taken a few years ago, when harper & obama were commanders-in-chief. There's nothing you or donald trump can do about it.

.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Trump has fired back ........ at the CIA.
> 
> His transition team said
> 
> 
> Hack-deniers and Russians demand proof. They know that the CIA will not release sources and technologies.
> 
> President Obama will have the report before the end of his term. He may not release the full report but if he chooses to make a public statement it will be covered and it will be believed.


The new Sec of State (XOM CEO)-is best buddies with evil Putin-cue the whining and squealing from the little losers.


----------



## olivaw

RT.com is a Russian government propaganda site, masquerading as a news site. It also provides free content to alt-right sites. 

As a result, readers of such sites tend to adopt the Russian state position on many issues. In this case, they deny Russian interference in the American election. 

Fortunately, the readership of those sties is small. They're vocal but they are not a major force.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> i believe the situation in north america is much more advanced than a few peeks at hacked computer networks would suggest.
> 
> right now canada - possibly along with NORAD - is re-arming the cold war radar lines with state-of-the-art multi mission radar systems (MMRs for short) that carry the israeli IAI Elta radar technology, which canada bought last year.
> 
> the devices are large but mobile force multipliers - they are truck-mounted - that can be integrated into a weapons system. Manufacture of the MMRs is being carried out here in canada. The first of the new systems will be delivered in early 2017.
> 
> to house them, teams of military are meanwhile re-building some of the old abandoned cold war radar bases. Most of these had been dismantled by the 1970s.
> 
> what i don't know is to what extent NORAD is implicated in this new re-arming of the north. The original radar stations were all NORAD installations. Although nothing has been officially announced, it does not seem likely that tiny canada would go it alone when it comes to the radar-dependent defence of north America.
> 
> 
> http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1009679
> 
> http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...ncements-up-next-radars-for-the-canadian-army
> 
> 
> .


Good find Humble. 

Putin may not be our enemy, but he is certainly not our friend. We and the Americans have to be prepared to defend North American from aggression by the Russian Bear.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> Good find Humble.
> 
> Putin may not be our enemy, but he !certainly not our friend. We and the Americans have to be prepared to defend North American from aggression by the Russian Bear.



it's not just russia, it's possible north korean missiles as well.

as the arctic ice thaws, there will be increased international shipping through the northwest passage. Vast silent snowbound lands will find themselves hosting not only seagoing commercial traffic, not only adventure tourists, but possibly also some hostile elements.

canada needs to keep a sharp eye on her north imho.

.


----------



## Nelley

Great Still Report on the epidemic of Fake News and the scum that spread it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLELZaEjRng


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Great Still Report on the epidemic of Fake News and the scum that spread it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLELZaEjRng



but who'd waste their time on anorexic dyslexic vacant-eyed dim-witted has-been [email protected]s.e.m.e.n.t.t.e.l.e.p.r.o.m.p.t.e.r.


.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Latest belly laugh from the main stream media: The Russians hacked Trump into the White House.

This article from CIA front The Washington Post lays it all out:https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html

The argument goes something like this:

The electorate voted against Hillary because she is a crooked skank

They found this out by reading her emails and the emails of her team and the Democratic Party

The emails were hacked by the Russians and posted on Wikileaks.

Therefore, it's the Russians fault we lost.

Isn't that precious? "We only lost because you found out what big crooks we are, so it's the fault of whoever blew the whistle on our crimes".

Then there is the fact that Wikileaks has already said the leak did not come from Russia.

Wonder if this could be more misdirection meant to keep the people from noticing that Trump is packing his cabinet with billionaires and big business and banking insiders? Remember that one of the reasons for voting for Trump was that Hillary was in the pocket of the big interests, and Trump promised to reverse that.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Latest belly laugh from the main stream media: The Russians hacked Trump into the White House.
> 
> This article from CIA front The Washington Post lays it all out:https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html
> 
> The argument goes something like this:
> 
> The electorate voted against Hillary because she is a crooked skank
> 
> They found this out by reading her emails and the emails of her team and the Democratic Party
> 
> The emails were hacked by the Russians and posted on Wikileaks.
> 
> Therefore, it's the Russians fault we lost.
> 
> Isn't that precious? "We only lost because you found out what big crooks we are, so it's the fault of whoever blew the whistle on our crimes".
> 
> Then there is the fact that Wikileaks has already said the leak did not come from Russia.
> 
> Wonder if this could be more misdirection meant to keep the people from noticing that Trump is packing his cabinet with billionaires and big business and banking insiders? Remember that one of the reasons for voting for Trump was that Hillary was in the pocket of the big interests, and Trump promised to reverse that.


To be fair to Trump you cannot realistically get economic outperformance for the USA without big money on your side-literally impossible. Trump is fighting very powerful interests and you can't do it without economic power on your side. The bottom line is Trump either grows the USA economy big time or he fails to do so-that is all the public cares about.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Latest belly laugh from the main stream media: The Russians hacked Trump into the White House.
> 
> This article from CIA front The Washington Post lays it all out:https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html
> 
> The argument goes something like this:
> 
> The electorate voted against Hillary because she is a crooked skank
> 
> They found this out by reading her emails and the emails of her team and the Democratic Party
> 
> The emails were hacked by the Russians and posted on Wikileaks.
> 
> Therefore, it's the Russians fault we lost.



this is an outrageous & grotesque falsification of the washington Post story.

please read the article again. It says nothing - zero, nada - about hillary clinton's personal or professional qualities as a candidate for president. Specifically, the article does not use the expression "crooked skank" nor any other expression with even a hint of a similar nuance.

the article says nothing about the nature of the DNC hacks, or even about the nature of the clinton hacks.

the article is 100% about the obama administration's decisions on how to treat the russian hacks during the presidential campaign. The administration decided to not punish russia during the election runup. Evidently this was a contentious decision. The article treats its pros & its cons.

in the end the russia-triggered wikileaks plus james comey's last-minute production of anthony's weiner's e-mails, product of a totally separate investigation, as somehow reflecting negatively upon clinton herself, did indeed play a key role in the democratic loss.

of course americans are calling for the CIA report treating the above to be made public as soon as possible.

to twist up the washington Post article into a pretence that it shows hillary clinton as a "crooked skank" is a perversion imho.

Rusty is merely stapling his own personal view onto any old newspaper story he happens to stumble upon. He might as well staple his "crooked skank" accusation onto the lyrics to the star spangled banner. Or onto a recipe for chocolate fudge brownies.

.


----------



## mordko

Noteworthy that the Russian regime also broke into Republican systems but kept whatever it found to itself. For now.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Latest belly laugh from the main stream media: The Russians hacked Trump into the White House.


We have been discussing this for a couple of pages now. Poor Nelley has been frantically trying to deny the CIA's findings. She parroted Russian propaganda and quoted intellectual midgets ike Bill Still. Look up "useful idiot" in the dictionary and you'll find a picture of Bill. 

It's pretty clear that Russia tried to intervene on behalf of Donald Trump. The question is why. We may not have the answer until a year or two into Trump's term. (Assuming that the EC and Congress allows him to become president). 

President Obama has asked for a report about the effectiveness of the Russian campaign. It's not that the emails found significant wrongdoing. It's that the Russians and puppet Assange released them on a daily basis where they subtly tug at people on an emotional level. It's the type of persuasion that Scott Adams adores. Other American voters may find it abhorrent.


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> The problem is anywhere from 70-80% of Americans don't buy this BS you are selling. That is why Trump was elected-the latest MSM spin is Russia is attacking Merkel (another dirty puppet).


If Trump doesn't trust the CIA or the FBI...........why does he trust the Secret Service ?


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> this is an outrageous & grotesque falsification of the washington Post story.
> 
> please read the article again. It says nothing - zero, nada - about hillary clinton's personal or professional qualities as a candidate for president. Specifically, the article does not use the expression "crooked skank" nor any other expression with even a hint of a similar nuance.
> 
> the article says nothing about the nature of the DNC hacks, or even about the nature of the clinton hacks.
> 
> the article is 100% about the obama administration's decisions on how to treat the russian hacks during the presidential campaign. The administration decided to not punish russia during the election runup. Evidently this was a contentious decision. The article treats its pros & its cons.
> 
> in the end the russia-triggered wikileaks plus james comey's last-minute production of anthony's weiner's e-mails, product of a totally separate investigation, as somehow reflecting negatively upon clinton herself, did indeed play a key role in the democratic loss.
> 
> of course americans are calling for the CIA report treating the above to be made public as soon as possible.
> 
> to twist up the washington Post article into a pretence that it shows hillary clinton as a "crooked skank" is a perversion imho.
> 
> Rusty is merely stapling his own personal view onto any old newspaper story he happens to stumble upon. He might as well staple his "crooked skank" accusation onto the lyrics to the star spangled banner. Or onto a recipe for chocolate fudge brownies.
> 
> .


We are very surprised that the Wash Post would not refer to Hillary Clinton as a Crooked Skank-thanks for pointing that out-LOL.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

If you read the WaPo article you will see they implicate Russia but shy away from saying how they are to blame. "I’ll be the first one to come out and point at Russia if there’s clear evidence, but there is no clear evidence — even now,” said Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and a member of the Trump transition team. “There’s a lot of innuendo, lots of circumstantial evidence, that’s it.”

They also beg the question of how the Russians hacked Hillary's emails if they were secure. Which brings us back to the obvious point that they were not secure, that her home made email server was wide open to hacking by the Russians or anybody else. 

Before the election they would not admit this was a problem. Now they say it is the reason they lost the election. Excuse me while I have another belly laugh. Then tell me which it was, tinker toy email system was not a blunder or it allowed the Russians free access to everything the Secretary of State was doing?


----------



## olivaw

Actually the Clinton campaign blames James Comey for taking the wind out of their sails. 

Hillary's position is that the Russians believe that they can manipulate Trump into doing their bidding. Perhaps that is why they tried to intervene in the US election.


----------



## wraphter

> They also beg the question of how the Russians hacked Hillary's emails if they were secure.


The Russians hacked Hillary's campaign manager John Podesta's emails,not her unsecured server.These appeared on Wikileaks.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Actually the Clinton campaign blames James Comey for taking the wind out of their sails.
> 
> Hillary's position is that the Russians believe that they can manipulate Trump into doing their bidding. Perhaps that is why they tried to intervene in the US election.


The original story the MSM sold the stupid sheep was that Trump was a rogue who would not listen to anyone or cooperate with anyone-a total one man operation/dictator-most of the sheep don't even remember that MSM version-the new version is Trump as a total puppet of Goldman or Russia or anyone the MSM can come up with.


----------



## sags

I am wondering if the Russians could hack the Air Canada Centre score clock to make the Toronto Maple Leafs "great" again.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Frank Luntz wants to know

Did Russia hack Hillary's campaign calendar and delete all her stops in rural Wisconsin, Penn., and Michigan?

Did Russia hack Hillary's speech Word docs and make her call voters who disagreed with her "irredeemable?"

Did Russia hack into the Hillary campaign's to do list and delete "Have a Press Conference Soon" for 9+ months?

Did they slip her a Mickey and make her pass out in public?


----------



## sags

Trump's flippant response to the hacking, and not attending security briefings indicate he doesn't take US security matters very seriously.

If a military clash happens.........s**t gets "real" in a hurry.

It has raised concerns even among Republicans who sit on intelligence and security committees.

Trump is untested under pressure. How he would respond in a crisis is a legitimate concern.


----------



## sags

The world has never been closer to full scale nuclear war than during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

As the Russian Navy steamed towards Cuba, President Kennedy had some tough decisions to make.

Ordering an American blockade around Cuba, with the full intent of sinking Russian ships if they breached the blockade, was serious business.

What happens if Russia or China believe they can take advantage of an indifferent President ? 

Will they consider that a weakness and decide it would be a good time to expand their territory or settle some grievances ?

Trump will be tested by the Russians and Chinese.........and perhaps the Iranians, North Koreans and others. 

He has made himself look hesitant and accommodating already. He should be working to change that perception.

Perhaps VP Mike Pence should take the lead on foreign affairs.


----------



## new dog

How about the phone call to Taiwan maybe Trump was already showing who is boss and not to be messed around with. Your right though at least with Hillary we would get world war 3 for certain.

On the hacking only Russia would do such a thing, I don't think the US or anyone else would even think about hacking. I mean look at the NSA and all the wonderful work they do.


----------



## olivaw

If Tump wants to be underestimated he certainly got his wish. The phone call to Taiwan created tension without strategic benefit. It was perceived by the world as a blunder by an inexperienced team. 

Blunders like this may be one of the reasons that Russia worked to help Trump win the US election.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Officially the US recognizes Taiwan as the true government of China. They refused to recognize the Chinese Communist government from 1947 until the early seventies.

So diplomatically it is more correct for the President elect to communicate with Taiwan than China.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Hillary can complain about losing an election due to fake news and rigged votes but I doubt she gets much sympathy from Bernie supporters.


----------



## wraphter

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Officially the US recognizes Taiwan as the true government of China. They refused to recognize the Chinese Communist government from 1947 until the early seventies.
> 
> So diplomatically it is more correct for the President elect to communicate with Taiwan than China.


Absolutely wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–United_States_relations#Normalization



> Normalization
> In the Joint Communiqué on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations, dated January 1, 1979, the United States transferred diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing. The US reiterated the Shanghai Communiqué's acknowledgment of the Chinese position that there is only one China and that Taiwan is a part of China; Beijing acknowledged that the American people would continue to carry on commercial, cultural, and other unofficial contacts with the people of Taiwan.[67]


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Hillary can complain about losing an election due to fake news and rigged votes but I doubt she gets much sympathy from Bernie supporters.


Rigged votes is Trump's schtick. He's still whining about losing the popular vote. He's the George Costanza of American politics.


----------



## sags

Warren Buffet backed Hillary Clinton in the election, but since the election his personal wealth has increased by $8.1 Billion due to the "Trump rally."

The Berkshire Hathaway Fund now has a market share of $405 Billion dollars.

http://finance.yahoo.com/quote/brk-A?ltr=1

The wealthy have done well so far with Trump's plan to have billionaires in charge.

Do the wealthy envision lower tax rates and more loopholes for them..........maybe ?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> If Tump wants to be underestimated he certainly got his wish. The phone call to Taiwan created tension without strategic benefit. It was perceived by the world as a blunder by an inexperienced team.
> 
> Blunders like this may be one of the reasons that Russia worked to help Trump win the US election.


Perceived by the world of the stupid sheep-most of whom actually think they are smarter than Donald Trump.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Trump's flippant response to the hacking, and not attending security briefings indicate he doesn't take US security matters very seriously.
> 
> If a military clash happens.........s**t gets "real" in a hurry.
> 
> It has raised concerns even among Republicans who sit on intelligence and security committees.
> 
> Trump is untested under pressure. How he would respond in a crisis is a legitimate concern.


Crooked Hillary is GREAT under pressure-calm cool and collected-LOL.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Perceived by the world of the stupid sheep-most of whom actually think they are smarter than Donald Trump.


I don't know about smarter, but Americans get to criticize and judge their president-elect's actions - at least for now.


----------



## mordko

So Trump is attacking the CIA now for talking about Russian penetration into US political party email systems (both of them). How is that ok? Which side is he on? And the front runner for Secretary of State is a personal friend of the Russian dictator. 

Good stuff.


----------



## james4beach

Ridiculous.

I'm also very suspicious about why a Russian/Putin propaganda web site like ZeroHedge supported Trump so strongly. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Russian influence in this whole election. Sites like ZH have warmed up many Americans to the pro-Russian propaganda line. Part of that propaganda -- which you will see daily at ZeroHedge -- is the message that the US is falling apart, on the brink of chaos, and the US government is out to get you.

It's such clear Russian propaganda


----------



## james4beach

Wait a second, what am I saying. This isn't theoretical, it's what the intelligent agency experts are saying!



> “It is the assessment of the intelligence community that Russia’s goal here was to favor one candidate over the other, to help Trump get elected,” said a senior U.S. official briefed on an intelligence presentation made to U.S. senators. “That’s the consensus view.”


----------



## new dog

If I was Russia I sure would back Trump since Hillary wishes for WW3. Having said that Hillary has had a ton of support from the not independent media, Hollywood, western leaders and everyone in-between. 

We should find out if we can who is hacking but Trump won with everyone stacked against him.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> So Trump is attacking the CIA now for talking about Russian penetration into US political party email systems (both of them). How is that ok? Which side is he on? And the front runner for Secretary of State is a personal friend of the Russian dictator.
> 
> Good stuff.


Trump isn't attacking the CIA-he is just reminding the public how inaccurate their comments have been-Donald Trump as the President Elect doesn't work for the CIA. Obviously many feel Trump should fear the CIA but it appears he doesn't fear them at all.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Ridiculous.
> 
> I'm also very suspicious about why a Russian/Putin propaganda web site like ZeroHedge supported Trump so strongly. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Russian influence in this whole election. Sites like ZH have warmed up many Americans to the pro-Russian propaganda line. Part of that propaganda -- which you will see daily at ZeroHedge -- is the message that the US is falling apart, on the brink of chaos, and the US government is out to get you.
> 
> It's such clear Russian propaganda


Obviously more than half the US population is under a Russian spell-what is your excuse for your lack of a functioning cortex?


----------



## olivaw

Far less than half. 46.5% voted for Donald Trump, 48.2% voted for Hillary Clinton.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Obviously more than half the US population is under a Russian spell-what is your excuse for your lack of a functioning cortex?


Except Trump lost the popular vote. By a lot.


----------



## sags

Trump doesn't trust US intelligence agencies and has no foreign policy plan or knowledge.

Is this a comedy show ?


----------



## sags

Trump says the US could change it's "one China" policy on Taiwan.

China says it is not negotiable and would respond by providing funds and military equipment to US enemies.


----------



## olivaw

John McCain's analysis: 



> “I do not respond to every comment by the president-elect because it may be reversed the next day,” McCain told Reuters when asked about Trump’s statement over the weekend that the United States did not necessarily have to stick to its position that Taiwan is part of “one China.” http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-trump-china-mccain-idINKBN1412EB


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Obviously more than half the US population is under a Russian spell-what is your excuse for your lack of a functioning cortex?


~61M voted for Trump (fewer than for Romney 4 years ago). 
~62M voted for Clinton.
~90M eligible voters stayed home.

Of those who voted for Trump, many did so in opposition to Obama/Clinton policies - this has nothing to do with the Russian hacking and propaganda.

Clearly, the people who were "swayed" constitute far, far less than 50% of the population. The problem is that just 2 percent of the population changing mind would have been enough to sway the election one way or another. We'll never know whether regime's interference swayed the result but we know they tried.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> ~61M voted for Trump (fewer than for Romney 4 years ago).
> ~62M voted for Clinton.
> ~90M eligible voters stayed home.
> 
> Of those who voted for Trump, many did so in opposition to Obama/Clinton policies - this has nothing to do with the Russian hacking and propaganda.
> 
> Clearly, the people who were "swayed" constitute far, far less than 50% of the population. The problem is that just 2 percent of the population changing mind would have been enough to sway the election one way or another. We'll never know whether regime's interference swayed the result but we know they tried.


OTOH you had almost the entire MSM violently opposed to one candidate-who won anyway-with a credible MSM most reasoned observers would agree Crooked Hillary would have been swamped in a landslide.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> ~61M voted for Trump (fewer than for Romney 4 years ago).
> ~62M voted for Clinton.
> ~90M eligible voters stayed home.
> 
> Of those who voted for Trump, many did so in opposition to Obama/Clinton policies - this has nothing to do with the Russian hacking and propaganda.
> 
> Clearly, the people who were "swayed" constitute far, far less than 50% of the population. The problem is that just 2 percent of the population changing mind would have been enough to sway the election one way or another. We'll never know whether regime's interference swayed the result but we know they tried.


It seems an overreaction by Trump and his campaign team to me.

He should be saying..........an investigation should be performed to find out what Russia has been up to.

Instead he sounds fearful of what may be discovered and rather protective of someone that Senator McCain calls a "murderous thug".

Rather than supporting a deeper investigation, Trump has chosen to question the ability of the US security agencies.

The start to the Trump Presidency gets stranger by the day.


----------



## sags

_“I do not respond to every comment by the president-elect because it may be reversed the next day,” McCain told Reuters _

Maybe Trump campaign chair Kellyanne Conway turned down the press secretary job, because she doesn't want to stand in quicksand.


----------



## wraphter

The CIA must be reluctant to tell him some secrets for fear he will leak it to Putin.


----------



## Nelley

I must admit watching the MSM and their sheep followers cry in their soup is a lot of fun-thank God (or Allah for the politically correct Canadian readers) the candidate referred to by other posters as the "Crooked Skank" lost this election.


----------



## mordko

The most zealous Trump supporters are the least educated people in N America. That's fairly obvious even from discussions on this forum. Undereducated people tend to be poorer. 

The question is: who will be hurt the most by the likely instability, high inflation and trade wars which Trump would cause if he were to proceed with everything he promised? The answer: poor people - and that includes Canada.

The irony here is that it's Nelley&Co who should be scared the most.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> The most zealous Trump supporters are the least educated people in N America. That's fairly obvious even from discussions on this forum. Undereducated people tend to be poorer.
> 
> The question is: who will be hurt the most by the likely instability, high inflation and trade wars which Trump would cause if he were to proceed with everything he promised? The answer: poor people - and that includes Canada.
> 
> The irony here is that it's Nelley&Co who should be scared the most.


Mornko: Maybe you should ask for a refund on your education costs.


----------



## olivaw

Sadly, Trump supporters appear to be less informed than other voters. A recent PPP poll demonstrated that Americans were generally informed about general trends and issues. The majority knew that:
- The unemployment rate declined under Obama
- The market more than doubled.
- Clinton won the popular vote by 2.8 million votes (roughly 2%)

But the majority of Trump supporters believe
- Unemployment went up during Obama's term
- The stock market declined
- Trump won the popular vote. 

Trump has managed to convince his supporters to believe him without fact checking. It gives him the power to spoon feed them bizarre untruths about domestic and foreign affairs.


----------



## mordko

While the unemployment rate did decline, so did labour force participation. It is now about 3% lower than when Obama took office. And a lot of jobs created during this administration are part time/low paid. Unemployment declines when people give up and stop looking. That's why labour force participation is a much better number telling the real story.

As for the market... OK, we discovered that ultra low interest rates and asset buying by the government inflates shares, at least in the short term. Long term economic impact - big question mark. Is that supposed to be good?

Let's remember that Obama did far more than the Russian regime to bring Trump to power.


----------



## new dog

The Fed and central banks are behind the success with their unlimited money printing and market intervention. Then you have the media and the military employed to keep the dollar from crashing and so on. We can go on for awhile on this but that is where the success is found. This could end at any time and it won't be Trumps fault, it will be the will of the markets and central banks.

Unemployment though isn't what it seems because after a year I believe those people who don't find work are dropped from the numbers.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-08-10/what-s-really-wrong-with-the-unemployment-rate

Still however things could be far worse I suppose.


----------



## olivaw

Numbers tell the story. The link provided by new dog offers an interesting secondary link into the U-6 unemployment measure; which includes discouraged workers and involuntary part-timers. During Obama's term it has declined from a high of about 17% to 9.7%.


----------



## sags

Obama led the US out of the deepest recession in history, but it wasn't a perfect or robust recovery.

Millions were left behind as the wealth gap continued to widen. 

Unequal free trade was a failure of all recent governments, including Obama's administration.

The pigeons have come to roost. They just arrived earlier than expected.


----------



## mordko

2008 wasn't "the deepest recession in history" by any measure. Recessions come and go, it's called "cycle". This administration's contribution was to stymie business and growth. As a result the only unique thing about 2008 is how long the US economy took to recover. Only now there are signs that it's out of the doldrums.


----------



## olivaw

It was called the "Great Recession". The entire financial system was on the brink of collapse. It was certainly the worst recession since the Great Depression. 

"stymie business and growth" is Republican speak for food and safety testing, environmental regulations, minimum wages and financial reporting requirements.


----------



## mordko

...red tape, taking umpteen years before making any decision (or not - e.g. XL), Obamacare damage to small business, politically motivated bans on developments, e.g. oil, introduction of trade barriers (e.g. "buy American", punitive tariffs on Chinese tires, meat labelling) and so on.


----------



## mordko

As for 2008, the hallmarks that make it special are:

1. The economy never fully recovered (unlike in previous recessions).
2. Productivity has fallen more than in earlier recessions. 

Obama's administration took measures which damaged productivity and recovery.

And some of it was because of the gridlock between government branches. Again, Obama's administration carries the lion share of the blame for not working with the Republican Congress. Previous administrations found ways to work with the Congress even when it was controlled by another party.


----------



## james4beach

I agree the US economy never fully recovered. I think they're still operating in emergency/stimulus mode... a never ending economic emergency that requires never ending low interest rates. (And 1% interest rate is still a zero interest rate)

But here's a counter argument too:

George W Bush left the US economy in ruins. Since Obama took over, there was an economic recovery, positive GDP growth. A dramatic reduction in unemployment. And the US economy is now relatively speaking doing much better than Europe, even though the financial crisis was centered in the US. In fact it looks like European banks are teetering on the edge and are in far worse shape than US banks.

So I agree the US has not fully recovered, but relatively speaking, they seem to be doing much better than Europe and much of the world


----------



## new dog

I think Bush was worse then Obama in my opinion.


----------



## mordko

The roots of the crisis were in legislation and lending practices put in place under the Clinton administration. Bush administration did not address the seeds of the growing problem. Obamas administration threw money at the problem and dealt with the symptoms while introducing red tape, incapacitating the government and damaging productivity.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> The roots of the crisis were in legislation and lending practices put in place under the Clinton administration. Bush administration did not address the seeds of the growing problem. Obamas administration threw money at the problem and dealt with the symptoms while introducing red tape, incapacitating the government and damaging productivity.


Yea..........sounds exactly like what Reagan said when he introduced the deregulation that led to the financial collapse.


----------



## james4beach

I think the loose application and final repeal of Glass-Steagall (which separated depository banking and investment banking/hedge fund activities) was really key to the US financial problems. According to wikipedia, starting in 1987 the Federal Reserve Board started interpreting the act loosely and allowed banks to engage in securities activities. By the time the act was finally repealed, it had already been several years under this loose interpretation that effectively no longer separated the two sides of banking. Into the 1990s -- while the act was still in place -- banks were already partnering with their securities arms; depository institutions and hedge funds already became one.

I blame the Federal Reserve more than a specific president. But if we're pointing fingers, it was under Reagan's watch that the act stopped being enforced.

But I really think the Federal Reserve deserves much of the blame of what's been going on with global financial market instability. Their crime is blowing one giant bubble after the next (encouraging them rather than keeping them in check), and somehow they keep escaping this criticism.

It was also under Sir Alan Greenspan that derivatives appeared on a wide scale as a new banking activity in the 90s; the housing bubble was fueled; mortgage problems ballooned out of control; personal savings were destroyed and savings rate went to zero.

The only thing I can thank Greenspan and Federal Reserve for, is creating an environment in which gold is a viable investment with the continuous race to the bottom in fiat currencies. That's not a good thing, though. It's not fun to watch every country in the world race to zero or negative interest rates. Even if the Fed raises rates in the next couple meetings, I seriously doubt we will see an overnight cash rate more than 2% in a long time


----------



## mordko

The key driver was government deciding that everyone in inner cities should buy their own homes whether they can afford a mortgage or not. And then proceeded to act to force Fannae Mae and lenders to give mortgages to the people who couldn't repay. That was Clinton's administration's doing. Bush let it continue. The whole thing was a time bomb.

Greed played a part, as did stupidity and incompetence, but the root cause was government policy based on a utopia that every poor person should own a great house.


----------



## mordko

And financial tools like derivatives and insurance are not themselves a problem. Nothing's wrong with financial innovation. There were three very specific errors:

1. Giving mortgages to people who couldn't pay the interest after discount period ended. That was driven by the government.

2. Pooling a lot of crap and claiming "the risk was now low because it's diversified crap". People tend to deceive themselves when there is something to be gained. Rating agencies are staffed by not very bright people so they couldn't detect the problem. 

3. People who didn't understand 2 insured it. 

Then the reckoning came. 

Does it mean that "derivatives are bad"? If so shares should be banned to. They don't cause bubbles but they are a tool which contributes to bubble formation.


----------



## james4beach

Derivatives aren't universally bad. But Greenspan championed the growth of unregulated, opaque derivatives. This is the subcategory that caused the most damage in the later crisis (and is still a problem today).

OTC, non uniform derivatives that are traded between institutional desks and that don't go through clearinghouses or exchanges... is a market ripe with fraud, market manipulation, price fixing, collusion, etc.

That's nothing like say options or futures contracts that trade on exchanges. A world of difference.


----------



## mordko

And what makes you think that the regulators would have been better than the rating agencies at spotting the problem? I have my doubts. Insuarance companies, unlike the regulators, stood to lose a lot of their own money by buying that risk. And yet they did. 

Worth noting that Greenspan didn't oppose CDS regulation all by himself but along with the Clinton administration. Although as noted above, not sure what difference it would have made.


----------



## olivaw

Kayne West met with Donald Trump to discuss _"life"_. 

At the press conference after the meeting, West grabbed Trump's microphone and said that *Hillary should have won*. I made that up.


----------



## sags

Politicians, world leaders, actors, singers, worn out CEOs...........Trump Towers lobby would have been a good place for autograph hunters.


----------



## sags

Fed raises US interest rate by 0.25%. They believe there will be 3 more rate increases next year. The goal is a 3 % Fed rate.

Yellen said "too big to fail" regulations are important and should remain in place, but there is room for some adjustment on regulations on small businesses and small regional banks.

She deferred to answer a question on the impact of Trump tax cuts creating jobs, saying there are a lot of factors involved in job creation.

Her summary of the economy as Obama leaves office was pretty good for his legacy.

The creation of 15 million jobs since the bottom in 2007, a stronger economy and low inflation rate being among the highlights.

Trump is inheriting a good economic forecast. We shall see what he does with it.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Fed raises US interest rate by 0.25%. They believe there will be 3 more rate increases next year. The goal is a 3 % Fed rate.
> 
> Yellen said "too big to fail" regulations are important and should remain in place, but there is room for some adjustment on regulations on small businesses and small regional banks.
> 
> She deferred to answer a question on the impact of Trump tax cuts creating jobs, saying there are a lot of factors involved in job creation.
> 
> Her summary of the economy as Obama leaves office was pretty good for his legacy.
> 
> The creation of 15 million jobs since the bottom in 2007, a stronger economy and low inflation rate being among the highlights.
> 
> Trump is inheriting a good economic forecast. We shall see what he does with it.


As if that muppet Old Yeller would have the first clue about job creation.


----------



## wraphter

Where Were Trump’s Votes? Where the Jobs Weren’t

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/business/economy/jobs-economy-voters.html?_r=0



> Yes, the economy has added millions of jobs since President Obama took office. Even manufacturing employment has recovered some of its losses. Still, less-educated white voters had a solid economic rationale for voting against the status quo — nearly all the gains from the economic recovery have passed them by.
> 
> There are almost nine million more jobs than there were at the previous peak in November 2007, just before the economy tumbled into recession. But the gains have not been evenly distributed.
> 
> Despite accounting for less than 15 percent of the labor force, Hispanics got more than half of the net additional jobs. Blacks and Asians also gained millions more jobs than they lost.* But whites, who account for 78 percent of the labor force, lost more than 700,000 net jobs over the nine years.*
> 
> The racial and ethnic divide is starker among workers in their prime.* Whites ages 25 to 54 lost some 6.5 million jobs more than they gained over the period. Hispanics in their prime, by contrast, gained some three million jobs net, Asians 1.5 million and blacks one million.*
> 
> .........
> 
> Only 472 counties voted for Hillary Clinton on Election Day. But according to Mark Muro of the Brookings Institution, they account for 64 percent of the nation’s economic activity. The 2,584 counties where Mr. Trump won, by contrast, generated only 36 percent of America’s prosperity.
> 
> ...........
> 
> Non-Hispanic whites account for 62 percent of the population. But they make up some 78 percent of the population of nonmetropolitan areas and 71 percent of that of small cities, according to the demographer William H. Frey from Brookings. By contrast, they account for only 56 percent of the population of the 100 largest urban areas in the country.
> 
> *Problem is, many of the jobs created since the economy started recovering from recession were in service industries, located primarily in large metropolitan areas — not in small towns and rural areas where the factories that once provided steady good jobs were either shuttered or were retooled to replace workers with machines.*
> 
> Given such clear divisions — less-educated whites living in depressed rural areas, on one side, and minorities living in more vigorous big-city economies on the other — the social and racial animosity manifest during the election campaign is hardly a surprise.
> 
> So there is a clear economic argument for Mr. Trump’s angry voters to have bucked the establishment.


There has been an uneven distribution of jobs. Working class whites in rural areas have not been the recipients of this
increase in jobs. Minorities living in big cities have done much better.


----------



## mordko

Worth noting that governments do not create jobs. Businesses do that. Officials engage in empire building/taxation but none if it is real "job creation" as the whole system is feeding of business which add value.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> Fed raises US interest rate by 0.25%. They believe there will be 3 more rate increases next year. *The goal is a 3 % Fed rate*.


Total pipe dream. They're posturing: the world financial system is too broken to handle even 3% overnight rate. IMO there's no way this rate will be raised above 2%. Once the next crisis hits, it will be cut to zero and then negative just like it is in Europe.

I bought bonds very heavily this quarter, 10 year maturity. I anticipate buying a lot of gold in 2017, taking advantage of a mispricing caused by a perception that there will be economic growth.


----------



## sags

I don't think the majority of Trump voters care what Trump said about Muslims, a wall, or the other stuff.

Trump has tapped into the anti-free trade and protectionist sentiment that was inevitable after corporations started shipping jobs out.

Bernie Sanders may have won this election for the Democrats. Hillary Clinton was tied to global free trade and the past.


----------



## olivaw

Trump's protectionist message was definitely the vote getter. The wall and the Muslim ban may have been a ploy to gain free media coverage. 

One of my buddies was a blue collar union guy until he retired. He liked Trumps anti-trade message and wants Canada to go the protectionist route too, 

For the most part, I support trade. It just needs to be fair trade. Our trading partners have to meet the same environmental, safety and labour standards. If that happens, global productivity improves and everybody wins. If that doesn't happen, it becomes a race to the bottom.


----------



## mordko

Yeah, let's impose lots of tariffs on poor countries. That's bound to improve their labour and environmental standards.


----------



## sags

I find it interesting that the Republicans are chummy with Trump now, but when one listens they are heading in opposite directions.

The Republicans don't agree with a lot of Trump's economic plans, but seem to hope he will change his views.

Trump believes he can change Republican ideology and convince them to do it his way.

It reminds of the guy on Youtube who had sled dogs outside of his home. 

He put food out and every day a grizzly bear would come and eat his own share.

Everything was happy, happy............videos went viral, stories in the local press........."we can all learn to get along"......they said.

And then one day the guy forgot to put food out for the bear..........and he ate the dog.

At the end of the day a bear is a bear...., and Donald Trump is Donald Trump.

We will see how long the honeymoon lasts.


----------



## sags

The CIA and other US intelligence agencies now say that Putin was directly involved with the Russian hacking.

_The latest intelligence said to show Putin's involvement goes much further than the information the U.S. was relying on in October, when all 17 intelligence agencies signed onto a statement attributing the Democratic National Committee hack to Russia.

The statement said officials believed that "only Russia's senior-most officials could have authorized these activities." That was an intelligence judgment based on an understanding of the Russian system of government, which Putin controls with absolute authority.

Now the U.S has solid information tying Putin to the operation, the intelligence officials say. Their use of the term "high confidence" implies that the intelligence is nearly incontrovertible._

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/14/us-officials-putin-personally-involved-in-us-election-hack.html


----------



## sags

How the US is tracking down the Russian hacking and how they know where the source is located.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a49791/russian-dnc-emails-hacked/

In a related story, Republican Presidential candidate Lindsay Graham says his computer was hacked during the election primaries and is calling for a full investigation and sanctions on Russia if the findings corroborate the evidence.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/14/politics/lindsey-graham-hacking-russia-donald-trump/


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> How the US is tracking down the Russian hacking and how they know where the source is located.
> 
> http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a49791/russian-dnc-emails-hacked/
> 
> In a related story, Republican Presidential candidate Lindsay Graham says his computer was hacked during the election primaries and is calling for a full investigation and sanctions on Russia if the findings corroborate the evidence.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/14/politics/lindsey-graham-hacking-russia-donald-trump/


Somebody started a Fake News thread-you could put this total B/S there.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Yeah, let's impose lots of tariffs on poor countries. That's bound to improve their labour and environmental standards.


Newsflash: A tariff is a TAX-that tax revenue flows to the guv-if you feel that tariffs are BAD and income tax is GOOD show your evidence.


----------



## olivaw

Sock puppet nelley believes Alex Jones hoax about Hillary's Parkinson's disease but does not believe a CIA report about Russians hacking. There's a name for people like that - Trump supporters.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> I don't think the majority of Trump voters care what Trump said about Muslims, a wall, or the other stuff.


In the second post of this thread immigration is the first topic you mention as part of Trump's platform.

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...and-Policies?p=1350930&viewfull=1#post1350930



sags said:


> Immigration
> 
> Ban all Muslims from entering the United States, although he said he would make an exception for London's new Muslim mayor, Sadiq Khan.
> Immediately suspend immigration from "any nation that has been compromised by terrorism" until proven vetting mechanisms have been put in place.
> Build a wall along the US-Mexico border and make Mexico pay for it.
> Stop illegal immigration.
> Triple the number of Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers.
> Deport an estimated 11 million unauthorised Mexican immigrants and their children — even if they were born in the United States starting with those who have committed serious crimes.


Immigration was a major theme in this thread,as was an attempt to find a definition of the alt right and Islamist terrorism.

Building the wall and having Mexico pay for it ---was instrumental in getting Trump elected because it was an 
appeal to tribalism ,us versus them. It served to unite his base.

He is creating an 'us versus them' mentality when he took the call
from the president of Taiwan. He antagonizes the Chinese and unifies his own people behind him. He even deprecated
NATO which rallies his troops behind him. The United States will look after its own interests. It doesn't need to get
involved with European problems.


Strangely, he does not stand up to Russia, the historic adversary of the US from the Cold War days. This puts him into conflict with many in the
Republican national security community.

He is a skillful manipulator who picks a fight with an out-group in order to create in-group loyalty to himself.


----------



## olivaw

*Short and to the point*. That's how Trump likes his security briefings.


----------



## new dog

What about electors being threatened all over the country how come we don't hear much about this on CNN? If it was happening on the Trump side CNN would go crazy and demand investigations and even blaming Putin for it.

http://nypost.com/2016/12/14/electors-are-being-harassed-threatened-in-bid-to-stop-trump/


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Obama skipped most of his intelligence briefings and it didn't stop him doing a wonderful job.


----------



## sags

Maybe Putin and Trump can give each other medals............or back rubs or something.


----------



## olivaw

Another day, another loopy-loop on Trump's national security team. 



> Fox News analyst Monica Crowley, Donald Trump's pick to be senior director of strategic communications for the National Security Council, repeatedly pushed an unfounded conspiracy theory that claimed Hillary Clinton's aide Huma Abedin has ties to Islamic extremists.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Another day, another loopy-loop on Trump's national security team.


Like you say-Monica is just another one of Putin's tramps.


----------



## olivaw

Nah, Monica Crowley isn't a Russian agent. She's more of a female version of Sean Hannity.


----------



## sags

Crowley is a member of a conservative think tank that promotes more globalization and free trade.

Combined with Trump's Billionaires Row, that should come in handy advocating for factory workers in Ohio.


----------



## new dog

I don't see any problem with Monica throwing out accusations out towards Human Abedin. Every time you turn on CNN their throwing out accusations against Trump and everyone on his team whether they are true or not. 

Trump talks to Putin means he is in bed with him.
Some white supremacist votes Trump meaning he is Trump's best friend.
Muslims that Obama imports blows up stuff and it is because of Trump's immigration talk.
Hillary gets caught doing something crooked and it is because of Russia and Trump finding out about it.
If Russia puts out damaging stuff on Trump, that is no excuse because Trump did it after all.
NSA,CIA and so on hack and meddle in other countries elections and governments but that is fine because they do good in the world.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Combined with Trump's Billionaires Row, that should come in handy advocating for factory workers in Ohio.



with big oil's Rex Tillerson as secretary of state & general 'Mad Dog' Mattis stomping the planet as defence secretary, trump has beautifully boosted the very same multinational super-rich that he used to rail against. Once upon a time. Far away & long ago. During the campaign, when he was told to be play nice to peoria.

.



.


----------



## dotnet_nerd

olivaw said:


> *Short and to the point*. That's how Trump likes his security briefings.


I had a friend who worked for Honda in Alliston and had to travel often to the Japan headquarters. 

Business meetings were conducted standing up, no boardroom table and chairs. Clever!


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Crowley is a member of a conservative think tank that promotes more globalization and free trade.
> 
> Combined with Trump's Billionaires Row, that should come in handy advocating for factory workers in Ohio.


The guy hasn't even been on the job ONE DAY and already the MSM and their braindead sheep are saying the guy has failed-he can't get it done. He either gets results or he doesn't-this MSM garbage is just losing more viewers/readers every day.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> this MSM garbage is just losing more viewers/readers every day.



oh good

could we hope to lose you as a reader real soon?


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> oh good
> 
> could we hope to lose you as a reader real soon?


As you are well aware, CMF was once a purveyor of MSM info-those days are gone-now it is alternative and getting more so every day-we will miss you Humble Pie.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> As you are well aware, CMF was once a purveyor of MSM info-those days are gone-now it is alternative and getting more so every day-we will miss you Humble Pie.


Nah, alt-newcomers are an amusing distraction - but a temporary one.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> As you are well aware, CMF was once a purveyor of MSM info-those days are gone-now it is alternative and getting more so every day



another raving fairytale from the challenged one. How would you know anything about cmf, nelley? you only arrived here a few months ago. 

i'm well aware of cmf's history & i can assure all that it was an interactive forum from the get-go. It was never a purveyor of any kind of news or particular opinion. 

nor is cmf forum alternative. The forum suffers from a very tiny cadre of alt-right kryptos on here. Some of these personnages display obvious mental health problems. Nelley is one of these.

in the past, the moderators have taken pains to tame down high levels of verbal abuse that were coming uniquely from this tiny handful of disturbed persons. I can think of 2 unfortunates on here who were eventually stopped out of their antisocial behaviour; however the cost in time & effort to the moderators must have been high.

it goes without saying that the disturbed trolls have little or nothing to contribute to the main financial structure of the forum. 

.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> As you are well aware, CMF was once a purveyor of MSM info-those days are gone-now it is alternative and getting more so every day-we will miss you Humble Pie.


Notice that this is a Canadian personal finance and investing forum. US political discussion is a side diversion. If your idea is to colonize CMF and turn it into a US political discourse forum, I think you are pretty deluded. People will rapidly lose interest in Trump unless he lives down to the expectations of him as a clownish, blundering buffoon.

There are maybe 3 or 4 posters one could describe as sympathetic to alt-right... hardly a groundswell.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Notice that this is a Canadian personal finance and investing forum. US political discussion is a side diversion. If your idea is to colonize CMF and turn it into a US political discourse forum, I think you are pretty deluded. People will rapidly lose interest in Trump unless he lives down to the expectations of him as a clownish, blundering buffoon.
> 
> There are maybe 3 or 4 posters one could describe as sympathetic to alt-right... hardly a groundswell.


Take a chill pill Champ-you make me sound like the Vladimir Putin of CMF.


----------



## andrewf

You're not Putin, you're the sad uncle at Thanksgiving dinner.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> You're not Putin, you're the sad uncle at Thanksgiving dinner.


Hey Andrew: CROOKED HILLARY LOST! LOL.


----------



## sags

I fear that America lost............and Trump supporters were manipulated.

Already Trump is telling his supporters to shed the anger and become calm..........because they won.

The people haven't won anything yet, but apparently he thinks his victory is sufficient in itself.

Could it be that Trump fears the backlash that would come if he doesn't deliver ?


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> I fear that America lost............and Trump supporters were manipulated.
> 
> Already Trump is telling his supporters to shed the anger and become calm..........because they won.
> 
> The people haven't won anything yet, but apparently he thinks his victory is sufficient in itself.
> 
> Could it be that Trump fears the backlash that would come if he doesn't deliver ?


YUP-if Putin hadn't brainwashed the entire USA Crooked Hillary would have won.


----------



## olivaw

Trump promised to save manufacturing, coal and steel. There may be a lot of pissed off former Trump voters if he fails to deliver on that promise.


----------



## sags

It takes years to build an assembly plant, get suppliers in place and start production.

I doubt there will be many offshore jobs returning home during Trump's time in office.

Trump supporters think the jobs will come rolling in next year.


----------



## new dog

If the Fed keeps raising there will be a recession, which makes it even harder to keep or create jobs. I do like his plan for massive infrastructure because the debt can't be paid so why not go for it while the dollars are worth something.


----------



## gibor365

Was watching in the gym CNN today.... what a ridiculous anti-Trump propaganda  .Elections already proved that Americans don't believe it !

Good news 
*Israelis welcome David Friedman as Trump’s Ambassador pick*
_New Israel Ambassador says embassy move can be done 'in a day.' costs zero taxpayer dollars._ 

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/221860

With current US support , Israel can become one of the flourishing countries in the World! And nobody can prevent it.... Syrians are killing each other, EU already saw "peaceful face of Islam" , same with Russia, UN is a joke...


----------



## mordko

I will believe the embassy move when I see it.

And right now it's the Iranians, Iraqi Shia and the Russians who are doing a lot of the killing in Syria. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38301629 Once Iranians finish the bloodbath in Syria, they will find themselves on Israels border.


----------



## wraphter

Trump is highly manipulative. He is playing games,stirring up trouble.

First he contacts Taiwan which is sure to antagonize China.

Now he wants to move the American embassy to Jerusalem which is sure to antagonize both Sunni and Shia
as well as their friends on the left in Europe and North America .

Israel has been enjoying a holiday from the headlines for a few years now. This is a good thing.
Why become the focus of the entire world as it was before 9/11?

Does Israel really want to be the centre of attention again?


----------



## mordko

^ You obviously don't read the news much. The number one concern worldwide is what's going on in Israel. That's how it was before 9-11. And after. And will be. Sunni and Shia will be antoganized for as long as there is a single Jew still alive. Meanwhile, most countries get to decide which city is the capital.


----------



## sags

I never hear anyone except pundits talking about Israel.

I think people in North America have grown weary of the problems in the middle east.

They want their governments to focus all their attention on the problems they are facing.........employment, retirement, healthcare..........

It is a myopic viewpoint..........but it is what it is.


----------



## gibor365

wraphter said:


> Now he wants to move the American embassy to Jerusalem which is sure to antagonize both Sunni and Shia
> as well as their friends on the left in Europe and North America .
> 
> Israel has been enjoying a holiday from the headlines for a few years now. This is a good thing.
> Why become the focus of the entire world as it was before 9/11?
> 
> Does Israel really want to be the centre of attention again?


Oh,really?! Just 3 weeks ago
*ISRAEL UNDER ASSAULT Terrorists Light Dozens of Fires to Kill Jews, Destroy Israel*
Firefighting aircraft from Greece, Cyprus, Italy, Russia, Croatia are helping fight the fires across Israel; more expected from Turkey, UK.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-light-dozens-fires-kill-jews-destroy-israel/



> Now he wants to move the American embassy to Jerusalem which is sure to antagonize both Sunni and Shia
> as well as their friends on the left in Europe and North America .


 Those "friends" wouldlike to see Israel wiped out


----------



## gibor365

> And right now it's the Iranians, Iraqi Shia and the Russians who are doing a lot of the killing in Syria


 and let them do the job!

This fighting can go for ages and this is good for Israel. Israel prefer Assad regime , he's enemy , but predictable


----------



## Nelley

gibor365 said:


> and let them do the job!
> 
> This fighting can go for ages and this is good for Israel. Israel prefer Assad regime , he's enemy , but predictable


The sheep have been told for years by the MSM that we need to fix all these 3rd world shitholes by turning western countries into 3rd world shitholes-FINALLY people are waking up to the scam.


----------



## olivaw

Blue collar workers don't care about the American embassy in Israel. They can barely bring themselves to think about Israel at all. You might as well discuss the strife in Myanmar as discuss the situation is Israel. 

They care about good paying jobs. \When Trump says that he is going to impose a selective 35% tax on some imported goods, their hearts beat a little faster. It gives them hope that Trump will personally find a way to reverse the tide of globalization.


----------



## gibor365

> Blue collar workers don't care about the American embassy in Israel. They can barely bring themselves to think about Israel at all. You might as well discuss the strife in Myanmar as discuss the situation is Israel.


Not true! Only stupid can compare Myanmar vs Israel. Americans think about Israel much more than they think about Canada 
and don't forget that in US live about 8 million Jewish


----------



## wraphter

If the US moves its embassy to Jerusalem it will be a great propaganda victory for the Muslim clerics. Nasrallah the leader of Hezbollah will start ranting. There will be denunciations by the religious authorities in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Hamas will feel obliged to fire some missiles. There will be terrorist attacks in Israel. Some Israelis will die. Attention will be shifted from Aleppo to Israel.

Israel used to be the common enemy that united all the Arab countries before they started attacking each other.
Israel was constantly in the headlines. Now it isn't.
Is that the condition you want to return to?


----------



## Eder

Appeasement has never been a solution to any geopolitical problem...line in the sand works though.


----------



## olivaw

gibor365 said:


> Not true! Only stupid can compare Myanmar vs Israel. Americans think about Israel much more than they think about Canada
> and don't forget that in US live about 8 million Jewish


Not a comparison? It was a statement about the relative importance of the location of the embassy to blue collar workers. They didn't vote for Trump because he was going to move the embassy to Jerusalem. They voted for him because he was going to move manufacturing, steel and coal jobs back to the United States. 

Trump didn't win the Jewish vote. He lost it by a larger margin than he lost the popular vote.


----------



## mordko

wraphter said:


> If the US moves its embassy to Jerusalem it will be a great propaganda victory for the Muslim clerics. Nasrallah the leader of Hezbollah will start ranting. There will be denunciations by the religious authorities in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Hamas will feel obliged to fire some missiles. There will be terrorist attacks in Israel. Some Israelis will die. Attention will be shifted from Aleppo to Israel.
> 
> Israel used to be the common enemy that united all the Arab countries before they started attacking each other.
> Israel was constantly in the headlines. Now it isn't.
> Is that the condition you want to return to?


- Arab countries always attacked each other, for as long as they existed.
- Nazrallah, Hamas, Fatah, Iran have never stopped ranting. Every Jew that isn't dead is a "propaganda victory" and an incentive to work harder for these nice chaps. 
- we've heard these kinds of arguments before that appeasing the terrorists would help. In reality it only gives them confidence - proves that intimidation works.


----------



## mordko

Crooked Donald: https://mobile.twitter.com/TIME/status/811177863454060544


----------



## olivaw

^ It's not April 1st and the source of the tweet is TIME. Still hard to believe. Pay to play - and a *brochure* too. 

For a million bucks you get a photo op with the new Prez, a multi-day hunting and/or fishing excursion with one of the Trump boys and .... not one ... not two ... not three .... but four autographed guitars by an _Opening Day 2017_ performer.


----------



## SMK

Bill Clinton is more upset at his own loss of not being able to move back into the WH as co-president than about his wife's defeat. Billy is no longer fooling anyone. http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/20/politics/donald-trump-tweets-bill-clinton-jab/index.html

Kind of funny, not the Russia part. http://www.cnn.com/videos/entertain...ckinnon-clinton-love-actually-electors-nr.cnn


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> ^ It's not April 1st and the source of the tweet is TIME. Still hard to believe. Pay to play - and a *brochure* too.
> 
> For a million bucks you get a photo op with the new Prez, a multi-day hunting and/or fishing excursion with one of the Trump boys and .... not one ... not two ... not three .... but four autographed guitars by an _Opening Day 2017_ performer.


If it is good enough for old grifter Buffett it is good enough for the Trump kids.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> If it is good enough for old grifter Buffett it is good enough for the Trump kids.


Sounds more like Ron Popeil than Warren Buffet.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Sounds more like Ron Popeil than Warren Buffet.


Or maybe this loser https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXjbXGyQDsE


----------



## olivaw

It appears that the Trump's have distanced themselves from the Jan 21st fundraiser. Million dollar donors won't get a private reception with the Donald or a weekend with Don Jr. and Eric. They may still receive the "Outfitter's Pro Package with commemorative custom detail" - which sounds eerily similar to the overpriced baubles they sell on Trump properties.


----------



## new dog

Hey I thought Trump was anti-Semitic, against Israel, racist, lover of white supremacists and the alt right. So what gives, why did Israel call him for help instead of Obama the great peaceful lover of the whole world.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/22/politics/un-vote-israel-settlements/index.html


----------



## olivaw

Israel called Obama. When he did not give them their way, they called Trump for help persuading him.

Antisemitism? Trump has many faults but antisemitism doesn't appear to be one of them.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Israel called Obama. When he did not give them their way, they called Trump for help persuading him.
> 
> Antisemitism? Trump has many faults but antisemitism doesn't appear to be one of them.


So you are accepting defeat on antisemitism? Bummer-don't give up on Russian Agent, White Supremacist, Sexist, or Chick Grabber.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> So you are accepting defeat on antisemitism? Bummer-don't give up on Russian Agent, White Supremacist, Sexist, or Chick Grabber.


i never said he was antisemitic. Perhaps that was somebody else - or the voices inside in your head.

Russian agent? Nah. Trump will be more of an unwitting victim of Putin's Machiavellian schemes than a mastermind or agent.

White supremacists adore Trump. His feelings about them are undetermined.

Sexist - yes. He admits it.

Chick grabber - Sure. His tiny hands go places uninvited. He bragged about it on tape.

The sexism and assaults speak to his character. He doesn't appear to have much.


----------



## sags

Trump needs to get his message coherent. He has people inside his team speaking out in public and is then retracting their statements.

Trump's tweet meddling in corporate America has become concerning to investors and employees.

Trump appears in a conflict of his views on Russia. Praising Putin one day and threatening a nuclear arms race the next.

China is mocking Trump, calling him childish and appear willing to engage in a contest of wills with him.

Moving the US embassy in Israel has been avoided by past Presidents and is controversial.

It is all looking very chaotic at the moment and Trump doesn't appear to be fully prepared to assume the Presidency.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> i never said he was antisemitic. Perhaps that was somebody else - or the voices inside in your head.
> 
> Russian agent? Nah. Trump will be more of an unwitting victim of Putin's Machiavellian schemes than a mastermind or agent.
> 
> White supremacists adore Trump. His feelings about them are undetermined.
> 
> Sexist - yes. He admits it.
> 
> Chick grabber - Sure. His tiny hands go places uninvited. He bragged about it on tape.
> 
> The sexism and assaults speak to his character. He doesn't appear to have much.


I am proud of you for not buying the stupid Russian agent MSM B/S-you are learning little grasshopper.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> i never said he was antisemitic. Perhaps that was somebody else - or the voices inside in your head.
> 
> Russian agent? Nah. Trump will be more of an unwitting victim of Putin's Machiavellian schemes than a mastermind or agent.
> 
> White supremacists adore Trump. His feelings about them are undetermined.
> 
> Sexist - yes. He admits it.
> 
> Chick grabber - Sure. His tiny hands go places uninvited. He bragged about it on tape.
> 
> The sexism and assaults speak to his character. He doesn't appear to have much.



Whether I agree with all that is said in this post or not doesn't take away from the fact that this was a good post Olivaw. It also has entertainment value as well.


----------



## olivaw

Thanks new dog.


----------



## Plugging Along

new dog said:


> Whether I agree with all that is said in this post or not doesn't take away from the fact that this was a good post Olivaw. It also has entertainment value as well.





olivaw said:


> Thanks new dog.


See if there can be temporary peace here, maybe there is hope in the world. 

Merry Christmas, and happy holidays as I got back into lurking on these topics.


----------



## new dog

There is always respect for each others opinion here, we have fun disagreeing with each other. 

Merry Christmas to you Plugging and everyone here. Here is my Christmas present to all of you. 
:cat:

This is my first smiley I have ever posted, I had to get my granddaughter to show me how.


----------



## s123

Totally agree with Sen. Sanders on these comments. 
USA or any countries should have responsibilities to elect the president / prime minister who has a morality + common sense.


- 'Presidents, Republicans and Democrats, have understood that our goal must be to reduce the number of nuclear weapons, not expand them.'
http://www.commondreams.org/news/20...ous-nuclear-arms-race-talk-must-be-challenged

Congress must not allow the Tweeter in Chief to unleash a dangerous and costly nuclear arms race. https://t.co/YYdlo3tSoa
Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) December 23, 2016

Heeley told Agence France-Presse Trump's comments this week are "reckless," especially without providing details or context for what he said. "To make such a loaded statement without context or follow-up is irresponsible at best," 



- Bernie Sanders Wants Congress to Stop Trump’s Nuclear Plans
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/12/25/bernie-sanders-wants-congress-to-stop-trumps-nuclear-plans/

[Editor’s note: Only the insane and the few who profit from their manufacture actually want to see a world with more nuclear weapons. The nuclear arsenals of the world already contain more than enough warheads to wipe out life as we know it, therefore Trump’s rhetoric, like so much of what issues forth from the orange buffoon can only be seen as insanity and most likely motivated by a desire to profit from an escalation in global tensions resulting in yet more arms being made and sold. Ian]


- Color footage of soldiers being exposed to high levels of radiation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWSMoE3A5DI



- How the Hiroshima Atomic Bomb Severely Injured the Civilians - GRAPHIC & UNCUT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebenWAmjcCY

Uploaded on Dec 29, 2011
UPDATE - Please consider the following:
One Government's actions cannot be the fault of future humans and leaders.


----------



## olivaw

An hour ago, Trump tweeted this:



Donald J. Trump @realdonaldTrump said:


> Great move on delay (by V. Putin) - I always knew he was very smart!


Perhaps a Trump supporter would explain his apparent allegiance to a Russian dictator.

Gratitude for Putin's assistance during the election ... or?


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> An hour ago, Trump tweeted this:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps a Trump supporter would explain his apparent allegiance to a Russian dictator.
> 
> Gratitude for Putin's assistance during the election ... or?


Sucking up to a dictator and shitting on the US foreign policy espoused under the previous administration? Unforgivable. This is terrible too: 



> Our relationship has suffered from a sense of drift in recent years. That is why I have called for a 'reset' in relations between the United States and Russia. This must be more than a fresh start between the Kremlin and the White House, though that is important. It must be a sustained effort among the American and Russian people to identify mutual interests and to expand dialogue and cooperation that can pave the way to progress


How could Trump say that? Oh yeah, that was Obama in 2009.


----------



## new dog

I would say Putin is smart for not retaliating to Obama's level and all the mainstream propaganda blaming Russia for everything under the sun. Obama clearly wants Russia as an enemy and Hillary wanted war with them and now that she lost she is blaming Russia for everything. All the countries the US has disrupted, overthrown the NSA and so on is never a problem for the mainstream media. People need to open their eyes and realize they are being played when it comes to Russia and the US. Trump has had time to look things over and is probably seeing things for what they are.


----------



## olivaw

Obama: the reset was in 2009. He admitted it didn't work out. 

Hillary: nothing in her policy proposals about WWIII.

Trump: The Russian government conducted a cyberattack on US political parties And tried to influence a US election. Trump tweets his admiration for the Russian dictator. Don't Trumpists find this questionable? How will congress react? Is it possible to get a straight answer from a Trumpist without the distraction of an attack on a Democrat?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Obama: the reset was in 2009. He admitted it didn't work out.
> 
> Hillary: nothing in her policy proposals about WWIII.
> 
> Trump: The Russian government conducted a cyberattack on US political parties And tried to influence a US election. Trump tweets his admiration for the Russian dictator. Don't Trumpists find this questionable? How will congress react? Is it possible to get a straight answer from a Trumpist without the distraction of an attack on a Democrat?


Here is your straight answer: Why don't you grow up-are you 5 years old? Crooked Hillary LOST-quit being such a little baby about it. It is over-now it is Trump as POTUS.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Here is your straight answer: Why don't you grow up-are you 5 years old? Crooked Hillary LOST-quit being such a little baby about it. It is over-now it is Trump as POTUS.


Does sock puppet nelley believe that the only acceptable form of political expression is adoration for the head of state? That's how they do it in dictatorships.

Putin is a dictator. Trump adores Putin.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Obama: the reset was in 2009. He admitted it didn't work out.


Not in 2012. On the contrary, when Romney stated that Putin's Russia is a geopolitical enemy, Obama made fun of Romney by suggesting that Romney is an old Cold War warrior who is stuck in the past (he also distorted what Romney said). And it wasn't just words, Obama killed missile defence in Poland and Czech Republic, thus undermining security and NATO. All Trump has done so far is words.

At that time every single liberal laughed at Romney and agreed with Obama. You criticizing Trump for expressing the same reset policy as Obama did at the same stage in his presidency is pure hypocrisy.


----------



## kcowan

It will be interesting to see how Trump handles this situation with their natural enemy of democracy.

Will he fall in line with the dictatorship model?


----------



## SMK

mordko said:


> Not in 2012. On the contrary, when Romney stated that Putin's Russia is a geopolitical enemy, Obama made fun of Romney by suggesting that Romney is an old Cold War warrior who is stuck in the past (he also distorted what Romney said). And it wasn't just words, Obama killed missile defence in Poland and Czech Republic, thus undermining security and NATO. All Trump has done so far is words.
> 
> At that time every single liberal laughed at Romney and agreed with Obama. You criticizing Trump for expressing the same reset policy as Obama did at the same stage in his presidency is pure hypocrisy.


+1 Romney had been right about more than Russia in 2012. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwQqNdkyZZo


----------



## SMK

I also believe Trump never intended to make Romney Secretary of State and was just mocking him. Was surprised Romney even considered - believed the fake offer, or was it all for show?


----------



## sags

Breaking news...A Vermont energy corporation has discovered the Russian malware on their computer system.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/us/grizzly-steppe-malware-burlington-electric/index.html

Energy companies across the US are searching their computer systems to ensure the virus isn't lurking on their systems.

The energy grid in the Ukraine was shut down in 2015 and it is believed to have been the same Russian hackers involved.

Even Fox News has changed their narrative and accept that the Russians were hacking and the US must respond.


----------



## mordko

SMK said:


> I also believe Trump never intended to make Romney Secretary of State and was just mocking him. Was surprised Romney even considered - believed the fake offer, or was it all for show?


"Trump" isn't just Donald. It would have been a smart move; someone within Trump's camp may have been pushing for this.


----------



## sags

SMK said:


> I also believe Trump never intended to make Romney Secretary of State and was just mocking him. Was surprised Romney even considered - believed the fake offer, or was it all for show?


Trump shows how petty he is by responding to any slight with a Twitter barrage.

He also uses people to his advantage and then discards them when they are no longer useful..........see Chris Christie and Rudy Guiliani.

It will all catch up to him in time. It would only require a few GOP legislators to support impeachment and appoint VP Pence as President.

Trump's walk across the thin ice of support, has begun with his support for Putin.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Trump shows how petty he is by responding to any slight with a Twitter barrage.
> 
> He also uses people to his advantage and then discards them when they are no longer useful..........see Chris Christie and Rudy Guiliani.
> 
> It will all catch up to him in time. It would only require a few GOP legislators to support impeachment and appoint VP Pence as President.
> 
> Trump's walk across the thin ice of support, has begun with his support for Putin.


OTOH you said he couldn't win the election so you aren't exactly solid gold on your Trump predictions.


----------



## Nelley

kcowan said:


> It will be interesting to see how Trump handles this situation with their natural enemy of democracy.
> 
> Will he fall in line with the dictatorship model?


You bow down to Commie China-what is the difference?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> OTOH you said he couldn't win the election so you aren't exactly solid gold on your Trump predictions.


You quote Alex Jones so you aren't exactly solid gold on your accuracy.


----------



## olivaw

kcowan said:


> Will he [Trump] fall in line with the dictatorship model?


This is the worry. There are many leaders with authoritarian tendencies but Trump takes it to an unprecedented level for an American president. He appears to embrace those who are willing to set aside democratic principles and the rule of law.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> This is the worry. There are many leaders with authoritarian tendencies but Trump takes it to an unprecedented level for an American president. He appears to embrace those who are willing to set aside democratic principles and the rule of law.


I know-Trump is a guy who spent his whole life working in government-wait a minute-that was the idol of the braindead sheep-Crooked Hillary.


----------



## new dog

Looking at that link Olivaw Amanda Marcotte is on the Alt left, so she is basically the Alex Jones of the left.


----------



## olivaw

I dunno new dog. Amanda Marcotte is a liberal but she is not a conspiracy theorist. One can certainly disagree with her opinions but I don't believe that she has a reputation for presenting untruths. 

*Alex Jones* says the Brussels attack was a scam by the European government. He's the poster child for fake news and conspiracy theories. His opinions are worthless because he backs them up with untruths.


----------



## new dog

I find some of the others on Alex Jones have some good stuff to say but Alex is a little crazy for sure.

On dictatorship I believe Hillary and Trump would be very forceful and tough to work for. Both would be acting like dictators I would think within their terms as president. We know for sure Hillary would set aside democratic principles and the rule of law.

Still however, besides trying not to be a dictator, Trump has enormous challenges ahead and they would be very tough for anyone to handle.


----------



## olivaw

It's not Trump's personality that has people concerned. It's his apparent adoration for dictators and tyrants.


----------



## mordko

Must be part of the course for people whose name starts with T. To be fair, Putin is a democratic ***** cat compared to Castro.


----------



## twa2w

olivaw said:


> It's not Trump's personality that has people concerned. It's his apparent adoration for dictators and tyrants.


Oh, you mean sorta like t1 and t2


----------



## olivaw

twa2w said:


> Oh, you mean sorta like t1 and t2


Did Castro hack the Canadian election? Does Trudeau have undisclosed financial ties to Cuba? Did Justin Trudeau threaten to jail his opponent? Does he attack the free press? Does he want to silence them with civil lawsuits? Has he appointed Bush era neocons to key security roles in cabinet? Is his main advisor a known enabler of the white supremacist alt-right? Has he called Mexicans rapists and murderers? Does he embrace conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones? Has he been caught in more falsehoods than any candidate since fact checking began? 

Nobody seriously believes that Justin Trudeau's "sunny ways" are the sign of an individual with tyrannical tendencies. 

Many serious American thinkers are concerned that Trump has dictatorial tendencies combined with a complete lack of appreciation for the balance of powers in the US constitution. Congress, the courts, and the governors are going to watch him closely.


----------



## mordko

Did Putin kill gays or "worms" as Castro lovingly called them? Also, Putin is 74747474 times behind in the "who will kill more dissidents" competition.


----------



## s123

2016's results showed sanctions / foreign policy made negative impacts on many countries.
Let's not repeat on 2017.

Majority want to see the better economies, stabilize middle east & own country in 2017.
Try to winning that becomes no-win to all.
So choosing win-win strategy that's the better option.

A Happy new year!


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Did Castro hack the Canadian election? Does Trudeau have undisclosed financial ties to Cuba? Did Justin Trudeau threaten to jail his opponent? Does he attack the free press? Does he want to silence them with civil lawsuits? Has he appointed Bush era neocons to key security roles in cabinet? Is his main advisor a known enabler of the white supremacist alt-right? Has he called Mexicans rapists and murderers? Does he embrace conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones? Has he been caught in more falsehoods than any candidate since fact checking began?
> 
> Nobody seriously believes that Justin Trudeau's "sunny ways" are the sign of an individual with tyrannical tendencies.
> 
> Many serious American thinkers are concerned that Trump has dictatorial tendencies combined with a complete lack of appreciation for the balance of powers in the US constitution. Congress, the courts, and the governors are going to watch him closely.


Saudi Arabia (owner of Crooked Hillary) is well known for stellar human rights.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Did Castro hack the Canadian election? Does Trudeau have undisclosed financial ties to Cuba? Did Justin Trudeau threaten to jail his opponent? Does he attack the free press? Does he want to silence them with civil lawsuits? Has he appointed Bush era neocons to key security roles in cabinet? Is his main advisor a known enabler of the white supremacist alt-right? Has he called Mexicans rapists and murderers? Does he embrace conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones? Has he been caught in more falsehoods than any candidate since fact checking began?
> 
> Nobody seriously believes that Justin Trudeau's "sunny ways" are the sign of an individual with tyrannical tendencies.
> 
> Many serious American thinkers are concerned that Trump has dictatorial tendencies combined with a complete lack of appreciation for the balance of powers in the US constitution. Congress, the courts, and the governors are going to watch him closely.


Saudi Arabia (owner of Crooked Hillary) is well known for stellar human rights.


----------



## olivaw

My wife and I attended a New Years Eve party and Trump came up in conversation after a skit came on the TV. A few people remarked that they expected the neocons in Trump's cabinet would manipulate him into starting a war with Iran. Others expressed concern about possible war with North Korea and China. 

Is there a CMF Trumpista who is able to address those concerns without an awkward pivot to Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Justin Trudeau, Bill Clinton or Fidel Castro?


----------



## new dog

Isn't Hillary already a neocon? This is why the neocons were behind Hillary when they realized Trump wasn't as war hungry.

https://theintercept.com/2016/07/25/robert-kagan-and-other-neocons-back-hillary-clinton/

However you are correct if Trump was to leave suddenly or be overly influenced there would be war.


----------



## wraphter

> A few people remarked that they expected the neocons in Trump's cabinet would manipulate him into starting a war with Iran.


Obama's nuclear deal with Iran allows them to have nuclear weapons in 10 years so it is inherently unstable. It removed sanctions from Iran,
unfreezing assets ,giving them billions of dollars, allowing them to continue military activities in the region and elsewhere.Bombing their centrifuges was a viable option . They now have advanced Russian air defense systems which make bombing more difficult. If Obama had 
bombed their nuclear sites, it may have deterred Russia from going into Syria. Iran is an ally of Russia, so bombing Iran will place the US in conflict with Russia,which Trump is loath to do.

Who are the neocons in Trump's cabinet? 

Bill Kristol is one of the founders of neoconservatism and he strongly dislikes Trump. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism



> Neoconservatism (commonly shortened to neocon) is a political movement born in the United States during the 1960s among conservative leaning Democrats who became disenchanted with the party's foreign policy. Many of its adherents became politically famous during the Republican presidential administrations of the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. Neoconservatives peaked in influence during the administration of George W. Bush, when they played a major role in promoting and planning the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[1] Prominent neoconservatives in the George W. Bush administration included Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle and Paul Bremer. Senior officials Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, while not identifying as neoconservatives, listened closely to neoconservative advisers regarding foreign policy, especially the defense of Israel and the promotion of democracy in the Middle East.
> The term "neoconservative" refers to those who made the ideological journey from the anti-Stalinist Left to the camp of American conservatism.[2] Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and promotion of American national interest in international affairs, including by means of military force and are known for espousing disdain for communism and for political radicalism.[3][4] The movement had its intellectual roots in the Jewish monthly review magazine Commentary, published by the American Jewish Committee.[5][6] They spoke out against the New Left and in that way helped define the movement.[7][8] C. Bradley Thompson, a professor at Clemson University, claims that most influential neoconservatives refer explicitly to the theoretical ideas in the philosophy of Leo Strauss (1899–1973),[9] though in doing so they may draw upon meaning that Strauss himself did not endorse.


A Bill Kristol article:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/you-inspire-us-all/article/2001276#.VtWgkmLMXqs.twitter



> We leave it to others to decide what sovereign Donald Trump has served in his life. We will simply note that Trump seems not merely an all-too-human example of one who has on occasion fallen into the grip of some of the seven deadly sins. He seems rather a veritable apostle of most of them. A proud defender of greed, an unabashed indulger in adultery, a wanton mocker of the meek (the "losers") of this world, Donald Trump does not inspire us.
> 
> ..........
> 
> And if we swear him in, we'll have a commander in chief who is seemingly more enamored of our enemies (Vladimir Putin and Bashar al-Assad) than of a recent president of the United States, whom he accuses (falsely) of knowingly lying the country into war.
> 
> ..........
> 
> So they say. But here's our response: The times may be changing, but principles don't. We choose not to dive into the infinity pool of Donald Trump's Republican party. The water in the pool might seem refreshing, even cleansing, at first. But in truth, Trump's waters are cold, shallow, and not fit to swim in. Rather than join the crowd and go with the flow, we choose to make our stand on dry land, with flags flying and guns blazing.


----------



## humble_pie

as far as i can make out, the trump foreign & military policy is looking bipolar:

- double America's nuclear & offensive arsenal, so that the US - already the deadliest military power in the world - will have unfathomable power & control over the entire planet, at least until the era of donald trump's grandchildren (whom he never mentions, to whom he appears to be entirely indifferent);

trump has picked general "Mad Dog" mattis to do this work;

- meanwhile speak gushygushy & obsequious to foreign leaders whom trump imagines might be his "friends," either on Twitter or else via russophile oil tycoon & future secretary of state rex tillerson;

- try to pick fights with some foreign powers, for example china, over nothing.


idk, does not look like a well-balanced, well-thought-out global politic to me.


.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> My wife and I attended a New Years Eve party and Trump came up in conversation after a skit came on the TV. A few people remarked that they expected the neocons in Trump's cabinet would manipulate him into starting a war with Iran. Others expressed concern about possible war with North Korea and China.
> 
> Is there a CMF Trumpista who is able to address those concerns without an awkward pivot to Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Justin Trudeau, Bill Clinton or Fidel Castro?


Sure-your friends are about as informed as you.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Isn't Hillary already a neocon? This is why the neocons were behind Hillary when they realized Trump wasn't as war hungry.


Hillary is neither a neocon nor president=elect. 

Nonetheless I will retract the term "neocons" and use the term "dangerous individuals" to refer to: 

Thomas P. Bossert - From the GW Bush Whitehouse
Michael T. Flynn - the rabid anti-Islamist
Frances Townsend - Homeland security adviser under George W. Bush
Steve Bannon - to promote the clash of civilizations 

"Mad Dog" Mattis. and John Kelly are unknowns at this point. 

How can you say Trump is not war hungry? How can you say anything about the guy. His utterances and tweets are so inconsistent that it is impossible to find a theme. Perhaps his cabinet will exist in a state of chaos with no guidance beyond Trump's narcissism. Maybe there is an underlying plan that he has yet to communicate but few thinking people are optimistic.


----------



## s1231

There are some movement in Europe. Good to see the news that shows us the both side of opinion.
*Seems like I can't post the link here somehow.

- US troop deployment to Poland provocative: Analyst: presstv.ir

Thousands of US troops have been deployed to Poland as part of a massive military buildup on NATO's eastern flank. 
Moscow has criticized the move, saying it signals a threat to its sovereignty. 
However, NATO countries say the planned deployments are purely defensive. 

Press TV has spoken to Brian Becker, member of the ANSWER Coalition, as well as Brent Budowsky, columnist with The Hill, to discuss this issue.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Hillary is neither a neocon nor president=elect.
> 
> Nonetheless I will retract the term "neocons" and use the term "dangerous individuals" to refer to:
> 
> Thomas P. Bossert - From the GW Bush Whitehouse
> Michael T. Flynn - the rabid anti-Islamist
> Frances Townsend - Homeland security adviser under George W. Bush
> Steve Bannon - to promote the clash of civilizations
> 
> "Mad Dog" Mattis. and John Kelly are unknowns at this point.
> 
> How can you say Trump is not war hungry? How can you say anything about the guy. His utterances and tweets are so inconsistent that it is impossible to find a theme. Perhaps his cabinet will exist in a state of chaos with no guidance beyond Trump's narcissism. Maybe there is an underlying plan that he has yet to communicate but few thinking people are optimistic.


LOL-the braindead sheep are salivating for conflict with Russia (they never mentioned Russia until as a herd their attention was turned that way) and somehow this makes Trump war hungry.


----------



## s1231

s1231 said:


> There are some movement in Europe. Good to see the news that shows us the both side of opinion.
> *Seems like I can't post the link here somehow.
> 
> - US troop deployment to Poland provocative: Analyst: presstv.ir
> 
> Thousands of US troops have been deployed to Poland as part of a massive military buildup on NATO's eastern flank.
> Moscow has criticized the move, saying it signals a threat to its sovereignty.
> However, NATO countries say the planned deployments are purely defensive.
> 
> Press TV has spoken to Brian Becker, member of the ANSWER Coalition, as well as Brent Budowsky, columnist with The Hill, to discuss this issue.


There is no edit button also. Can you still edit your post?


----------



## mordko

s1231 said:


> There are some movement in Europe. Good to see the news that shows us the both side of opinion.
> *Seems like I can't post the link here somehow.
> 
> - US troop deployment to Poland provocative: Analyst: presstv.ir
> 
> Thousands of US troops have been deployed to Poland as part of a massive military buildup on NATO's eastern flank.
> Moscow has criticized the move, saying it signals a threat to its sovereignty.
> However, NATO countries say the planned deployments are purely defensive.
> 
> Press TV has spoken to Brian Becker, member of the ANSWER Coalition, as well as Brent Budowsky, columnist with The Hill, to discuss this issue.



Yep, the islamofascist regime of genocidal Mullahs is by far the best source of information.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> LOL-the braindead sheep are salivating for conflict with Russia (they never mentioned Russia until as a herd their attention was turned that way) and somehow this makes Trump war hungry.


We have been discussing Russia for years. The discussion turned to alarm after Russia invaded Crimea, Ukraine. 

There is no salivating for conflict but we have to be concerned about Putin's militaristic adventurism. You'd probably feel the same if you hadn't consumed so much Russian propaganda on your alt-news sites.


----------



## SMK

Who was it again who told Megvedev "after my election I have more flexibility"? And who mocked Romney for saying Russia was the biggest geopolitical foe? Obama and Clinton, and that was only 4 years ago folks. Indeed it's been Obama who has helped Putin the most.


----------



## olivaw

How spectacular is Obama that his opponents need to go back four years to catch him in an inaccuracy. To catch Trump you only have to go back four minutes.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> We have been discussing Russia for years. The discussion turned to alarm after Russia invaded Crimea, Ukraine.
> 
> There is no salivating for conflict but we have to be concerned about Putin's militaristic adventurism. You'd probably feel the same if you hadn't consumed so much Russian propaganda on your alt-news sites.


I don't hate Russians-they haven't done anything to me-I have no idea why you hate Russians so much.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> I don't hate Russians-they haven't done anything to me-I have no idea why you hate Russians so much.


What in the world are you on about? Nobody hates Russians. We don't share your naiveté about Putin.


----------



## new dog

There isn't long until inauguration day, so if the war machine is to really get going they may need to try provoke Russia into some kind of conflict. Russia is the best dancer for the war machine to make money, gain funding and so this makes perfect sense. Most democrats have no idea about war only if they are asked to fight in it and I have said all this before.


----------



## SMK

How spectacular is that Obama was so blind that *years in advance he couldn't spot the red flags that were everywhere* while others could. Romney had not been the only one that had been awake. 

If Clinton had won, what would be dominating the news these days, I wonder.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> How spectacular is Obama that his opponents need to go back four years to catch him in an inaccuracy. To catch Trump you only have to go back four minutes.


No need to go back too far. Obama stated that he had learnt of the Russian state interference in the election prior to November but didn't react so as not to give the appearance of bias. 

So, we have the President of the United States not acting in response to a blatant attack on national sovereignty not to give the wrong impression. Not to mention that he actually campaigned for Hillary, so the appearance was there anyway. 

And what did he do after the election, having stated that yes, Russia did indeed interfere? Produced a lot of hot air. This is exactly how he has encouraged Assads, Putins and the Iranian Mullahs for 8 years.


----------



## mordko

The change of multi-decade policy granting Cubans an automatic asylum is another typical symptom of Obamas disastrous presidency.

Why was it cancelled at the last moment? Is Obama anti-immigrant? Nope. Is the Castro regime much better now than before? Nope, they still have prisons filled with political dissidents and anyone who Americans would return has a good chance of ending up in prison.

He cancelled it to lay a mine for Trump. Cuban immigrants tend to be Republican and voted for Trump. Yet a large constituency among Trump supporters is anti-immigration. Whether Trump cancels Obamas order, or not, he will upset one section among his supporters.

So, Obama has acted not based on moral principle or to benefit the people in the US. He acted purely for political reasons to give headaches to the other side. This is exactly why he hasn't worked with the Congress for 8 years, which hurt the economy in the US.


----------



## wraphter

Obama said regarding the hacking that he told Vladimir to 'cut it out'. As if that thug would listen to him.
When the Russian mafia don saw that Obama reneged on his red line to bomb Syria when Assad used 
chemical weapons, he knew he could act with impunity, smiling psychopath that he is .

Back in the USSR, as the song goes.


----------



## wraphter

deleted


----------



## olivaw

The best you came up with is:
- Obama didn't declare war on Russia over the hacking 
- Obama didn't implement a Cuba policy that congress publicly promised to reverse
- Some talking points from the 2012 campaign. 

Cute.


----------



## SMK

Obama said he didn't underestimate Putin, except for cyberhacking, which is laughable. But he did exactly that and on multiple fronts. His sarcasm and conviction about Russia and other issues are telling and worth reposting as his tune hasn't changed much over the years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1409sXBleg


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> The best you came up with is:
> - Obama didn't declare war on Russia over the hacking
> 
> 
> Cute.


That is a red herring. There are actions the US can take that make a difference and are way short of war. Like confiscating Russian regime's California villas and $bn dollar private accounts in Panama. Or arresting some of the regimes accounts in the US. 

Similarly, in Syria there were things the west could do but didn't. Like a no-fly zone and safe zones for civilians. Yet they did zilch and simply watched deliberate mass murder of civilians on an unbelievable scale - having first declared a "red line". 

Suggesting that there is nothing that can be said against Obama after 8 years of absolute international disaster and a statemate + Obamacare on the home front is delirious.


----------



## mordko

Worth noting, that Trump's policies (if we can use this term) are very much aligned with the 2009 Obama:

- Protectionism (e.g. "Buy American" provisions, punitive labelling requirements, tariffs on Chinese products)
- Huge public expenditure
- "Reset" with Russia; focus on terrorism
- Something on healthcare which will be centralized and magically make it all cheaper with universal access 

The only detectable difference is in relation to taxation and energy. If Trump/Congress lower company taxes that would be good for the US. Canada will be in trouble though as our drama teacher is making it more expensive to do business in Canada.


----------



## olivaw

Nobody said that there is no room for criticism of Obama. Only that the criticisms levelled here appear shallow beside the criticisms of Trump. (Or GW Bush) 

There are always points of policy overlap between presidents. Unfortunately the examples listed above seem stretched. However, the issue isn't Trump's policies, or lack thereof - it's his character, or lack thereof.


----------



## andrewf

Also, comparison of fiscal policies should be tempered by the economic environment. Obama took office with an economy at its weakest point in decades. Trump is taking office with a relatively buoyant economy. Not a lot of justification for fiscal expansionism, currently (that is, if you even believe fiscal policy has a role to play). After all, the fed has finally begun raising rates.


----------



## mordko

After 8 years of stagnation and lack of growth, the rumours of buoyancy seem a little exaggerated. And the superlow interest rates are still touching the floor. 

Eight years of Obama played a far bigger role than the Russians did in getting Trump elected.


----------



## SMK

mordko said:


> Eight years of Obama played a far bigger role than the Russians did in getting Trump elected.


Just like Obama was wrong about Putin, he also underestimated Trump's potential victory a year ago, even when the VP thought otherwise. "Talk to me if Trump wins" he said. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-donald-trump-today-show-matt-lauer/78672870/

He may have been right about DJT not succeeding in the WH though.


----------



## Parkuser

mordko said:


> After 8 years of stagnation and lack of growth, the rumours of buoyancy seem a little exaggerated. ...


This looks to me like belonging to the Fake News thread.

Here from the Time Magazine: 

http://time.com/4616866/barack-obama-administration-look-back-history-achievements/?iid=sr-link1

"Obama inherited the wreckage of what proved to be the worst U.S. recession since the 1930s. The economy contracted by more than 8%. Unemployment doubled, from 5% to 10%—a net loss of some 8 million jobs. Average housing prices dropped by 30%. The cumulative wealth of Americans fell by nearly a quarter: a loss on paper of some $15 trillion. As the Great Recession echoed around the world, Europe’s economy went into reverse. Nations from Greece to Iceland flirted with default on their sovereign debts, while emerging markets from Rio to New Delhi and Moscow to Beijing began to sputter and stall."

And here is the US unemployment statistics:

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

You may call it stagnation and lack of growth, but there are people who would disagree with you.


----------



## mordko

Check this out: http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/terence...e-first-president-hoover-not-see-3-gdp-growth

Obama is the first president since Hoover to not have at least a 3% annual GDP growth on his watch. And that's after poring trillions of taxpayer dollars into economy. US economy never recovered after 2008; which is the first time in history this has happened. http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-reasons-behind-the-obama-non-recovery-1474412963

Every other time US had a crisis, they experienced strong growth in subsequent years.


----------



## mordko

As for unemployment statistics, it is hugely misleading. People can't find work for years, so they stop looking. That improves statistics.

Meanwhile percent of employed Americans is still far, far lower than in 2007.


----------



## andrewf

2008 was the first time the US really risked depression since 1929.


----------



## Parkuser

mordko said:


> As for unemployment statistics, it is hugely misleading. People can't find work for years, so they stop looking. That improves statistics.
> 
> Meanwhile percent of employed Americans is still far, far lower than in 2007.


I agree, statistics not supporting your arguments are misleading. During Obama presidency people stopped looking for work, improving unemployment statistics. Totally new phenomenon. Never before happened. 

I looked up your link, the first comment was quoting this:

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/da...ich-presidents-have-been-best-for-the-economy

Obama (in spite of the worth recession since the 1930's) seems to be for the economy exactly the same as Bush II. So how about "16 years of stagnation?" Would this be misleading? No wonder Americans want make America great again. And presumably go back to the Kennedy and Johnson, i.e. Vietnam War, era.


----------



## mordko

It is true that things haven't been all that great under Obama's predecessors. Clinton planted the grains of the 2008 crisis through forced lending to people who couldn't afford mortgages. Bush also engaged in protectionism and did nothing about Clintons housing policies and spent freely. And then there is the usual cycle. That does not change the fact that Obama has presided over the longest non-recovery in the US history.

And US labour force participation rate not only supports my argument, but also shows why Trump got elected. 

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/labor-force-participation-rate


----------



## Parkuser

mordko said:


> ...
> And US labour force participation rate not only supports my argument, but also shows why Trump got elected.
> 
> http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/labor-force-participation-rate


Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. When I looked on the Max chart (1950-2015) I can see the life of my cohort. Baby boomers (men and women) coming on the job market in the late sixties (and creating markets for everything you need in an adult life) and now slowly retiring. Fact of life, not Obama. Whatever Trump does it will not entice retired baby boomers back to participate in the work force. Neither will it reverse automation in factories. (And I suspect this chart does not include illegal immigrants, 16m?, which would probably flatten the top significantly. But that's another story.)


----------



## humble_pie

.

_the inauguration of Caligula . . . _

.












.


----------



## mordko

Parkuser said:


> Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. When I looked on the Max chart (1950-2015) I can see the life of my cohort. Baby boomers (men and women) coming on the job market in the late sixties (and creating markets for everything you need in an adult life) and now slowly retiring. Fact of life, not Obama. Whatever Trump does it will not entice retired baby boomers back to participate in the work force. Neither will it reverse automation in factories. (And I suspect this chart does not include illegal immigrants, 16m?, which would probably flatten the top significantly. But that's another story.)


Yes, aging workforce has played a role. Immigration did not; Obama has kicked out a large number of "Mexicans". In this respect too, his policy has been exactly like Trump's. In fact more Mexicans have been leaving (voluntarily) than coming into the US. 

Still, the main reason for the decline is that people stopped looking for jobs. And yes, a lot of manufacturing jobs have disappeared; so many males who are not capable of changing no longer have a chance to find a job. And many young people are struggling too.

This is very similar to what has been happening in Europe for quite some time, where youth unemployment and participation have been awful in countries like France and Spain. Big nanny state and excessive regulations tend to have this effect. Traditionally the US has been more flexible. Obama has succeeded in making US more like Europe.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Also, comparison of fiscal policies should be tempered by the economic environment. Obama took office with an economy at its weakest point in decades. Trump is taking office with a relatively buoyant economy. Not a lot of justification for fiscal expansionism, currently (that is, if you even believe fiscal policy has a role to play). After all, the fed has finally begun raising rates.


That is why Trump won despite almost the entire power structure opposing the guy-the economy is booming. Jeez.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> After 8 years of stagnation and lack of growth, the rumours of buoyancy seem a little exaggerated. And the superlow interest rates are still touching the floor.
> 
> Eight years of Obama played a far bigger role than the Russians did in getting Trump elected.


You forgot to mention 8 years of fiscal insanity by Obozo-with nothing accomplished at the median income level.


----------



## Nelley

Parkuser said:


> This looks to me like belonging to the Fake News thread.
> 
> Here from the Time Magazine:
> 
> http://time.com/4616866/barack-obama-administration-look-back-history-achievements/?iid=sr-link1
> 
> "Obama inherited the wreckage of what proved to be the worst U.S. recession since the 1930s. The economy contracted by more than 8%. Unemployment doubled, from 5% to 10%—a net loss of some 8 million jobs. Average housing prices dropped by 30%. The cumulative wealth of Americans fell by nearly a quarter: a loss on paper of some $15 trillion. As the Great Recession echoed around the world, Europe’s economy went into reverse. Nations from Greece to Iceland flirted with default on their sovereign debts, while emerging markets from Rio to New Delhi and Moscow to Beijing began to sputter and stall."
> 
> And here is the US unemployment statistics:
> 
> https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000
> 
> You may call it stagnation and lack of growth, but there are people who would disagree with you.


SURE-get the participation rate low enough and you can have zero unemployment-must be all those rich boomers saying take this job and shove it.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> 2008 was the first time the US really risked depression since 1929.


Good thing Obozo righted the economic ship. Jeez.


----------



## Nelley

Parkuser said:


> I agree, statistics not supporting your arguments are misleading. During Obama presidency people stopped looking for work, improving unemployment statistics. Totally new phenomenon. Never before happened.
> 
> I looked up your link, the first comment was quoting this:
> 
> http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/da...ich-presidents-have-been-best-for-the-economy
> 
> Obama (in spite of the worth recession since the 1930's) seems to be for the economy exactly the same as Bush II. So how about "16 years of stagnation?" Would this be misleading? No wonder Americans want make America great again. And presumably go back to the Kennedy and Johnson, i.e. Vietnam War, era.


Yeah 16 years of economic underperformance-the nature of a Ponzi is that it is increasingly difficult for the next leader getting the hot potato-Trump or anyone else in his position would have their hands full because of his predecessors.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Yes, aging workforce has played a role. Immigration did not; Obama has kicked out a large number of "Mexicans". In this respect too, his policy has been exactly like Trump's. In fact more Mexicans have been leaving (voluntarily) than coming into the US.
> 
> Still, the main reason for the decline is that people stopped looking for jobs. And yes, a lot of manufacturing jobs have disappeared; so many males who are not capable of changing no longer have a chance to find a job. And many young people are struggling too.
> 
> This is very similar to what has been happening in Europe for quite some time, where youth unemployment and participation have been awful in countries like France and Spain. Big nanny state and excessive regulations tend to have this effect. Traditionally the US has been more flexible. Obama has succeeded in making US more like Europe.


It looks like the future of Europe is to become (best case scenario) a wealthier version of Turkey.


----------



## Parkuser

Nelley said:


> ...


Hey, you used *Nelley* account six times. The *new dog* and *bass player* accounts are getting rusty! Not nice!


----------



## sags

Nothing will change until the problem of wealth/income disparity is addressed.

Trump, in his own strange way is trying to address that, by renegotiating trade deals and threatening import duties on companies that don't manufacture in the US. Trump knows he has to "blow up" the system and start over. The current system is completely tilted towards those who own the assets. The rich continue to get richer, while everyone else gets poorer.

Trump should leave the military and foreign affairs problems to VP Mike Pence.

A dream team could be:

Mike Pence in charge of the military/foreign affairs and Bernie Sanders in charge of a remake of the economy.

Both in full charge of those areas, with President Trump standing behind them blasting away at the critics.


----------



## mordko

Bernie in charge of the economy = f-ing nightmare. Not only is he a socialist, Bernie has never had any interaction with the real economy outside government. 

There is no problem of income disparity. There is a problem of low income, like people living on $1/day. And it's not to be found anywhere in N. America.


----------



## Parkuser

mordko said:


> Yes, aging workforce has played a role. ... Still, the main reason for the decline is that people stopped looking for jobs. And yes, a lot of manufacturing jobs have disappeared; so many males who are not capable of changing no longer have a chance to find a job. And many young people are struggling too. ... Obama has succeeded in making US more like Europe.


I would be convinced if you assigned some numbers to your claims. 

Unemployment went down from 10% to 4.5%. The job participation went down from 66% to 62.5%. Sort of half. How much is for people actually not looking for work anymore? Now, let assign some numbers to work force aging and automatization. How about 1% and 1%? Or 1.5% and 1.5%? And how statistic of discouraged people looked before Obama? Then you can assign blame to a guy who was sabotaged at every move.

And do remember that during Obama presidency almost all adult Americans started walking around with a personal computer disguised as a phone. This counts for something too. When I started working my letters were typed by a group secretary, graphics done by a draftsman, serious calculations required going through computer guys, and so on. When I was leaving I was doing all this myself, no non-technical support staff whatsoever.

I remember they were always talking how automation will suddenly free almost everybody from work. Then they were talking about computers killing paper industry. For 30 years the latter sounded like a joke, but now it came to being. I am using my printer more for scanning that for printing. So maybe automation forecast comes into being too?

Conservatives claim government cannot create jobs*. On the other hand they complain that government does not create jobs. What exactly should be done? Clinton and Bush gave banksters free hand. They created fake money and almost destroyed western economy. Nobody went to jail for this. This is probably Obama’s fault. But hey, thanks to that Trump can now hire Bear Stearns guy and Goldman Sacks guys to run the economy.

And in the US there is this situation that among the wealthiest society in the World lives a nation, 30m strong, kept down by force, in conditions approaching third world. They would love to live in France, I bet.

I am afraid we are discussing like peacenik and wormonger:
http://www.rense.com/general35/warm.htm

*I vaguely remember that in the US 52% jobs are government related.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> A dream team could be:... Bernie Sanders in charge of a remake of the economy.


Is today opposite day for you? :glee:


----------



## sags

I would love to see it happen.

Pence......the trustworthy guy in charge of the dangerous stuff.

Sanders.........planning the remake of the economy.

Trump..........blowing any resistance out of the water.

It could work out very well.


----------



## sags

SMK said:


> Is today opposite day for you? :glee:


No..........I always liked Sanders. I just never believed he had quite enough support to win.

Pence I would trust with foreign affairs and the military. By all reports he is smart, calm and studious.

Trump makes me nervous on the military/foreign affairs side, but he is the undisputed Champion of blasting critics.

The President's "bully pulpit" takes on a whole new meaning under Donald Trump.


----------



## mordko

Parkuser said:


> I am afraid we are discussing like peacenik and wormonger:
> http://www.rense.com/general35/warm.htm
> 
> *I vaguely remember that in the US 52% jobs are government related.


A little bit earlier we had a far-right Trump supporter quoting stalinist, virulently antisemitic site.

Now we have a left-wing liberal quoting a neo-nazi, Holocaust denying virulently antisemitic website: http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/rense-web-site-promotes.html

Good stuff. I am seeing unity.


----------



## wraphter

mordko said:


> There is no problem of income disparity.



http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/01/16/world/europe/ap-eu-davos-inequality.html



> Stark Inequality: Oxfam Says 8 Men as Rich as Half the World
> 
> DAVOS, Switzerland — The gap between the super-rich and the poorest half of the global population is starker than previously thought, with just eight men, from Bill Gates to Michael Bloomberg, owning as much wealth as 3.6 billion people, according to an analysis by Oxfam released Monday.
> 
> Presenting its findings on the dawn of the annual gathering of the global political and business elites in the Swiss ski resort of Davos, anti-poverty organization Oxfam says the gap between the very rich and poor is far greater than just a year ago. It's urging leaders to do more than pay lip-service to the problem.
> 
> ..........
> 
> Oxfam used Forbes' billionaires list that was last published in March 2016 to make its headline claim. According to the Forbes list, Microsoft founder Gates is the richest individual with a net worth of $75 billion. The others, in order of ranking, are Amancio Ortega, the Spanish founder of fashion house Inditex, financier Warren Buffett, Mexican business magnate Carlos Slim Helu, Amazon boss Jeff Bezos, Facebook creator Mark Zuckerberg, Oracle's Larry Ellison and Bloomberg, the former mayor of New York.
> 
> ............
> 
> Oxfam outlined measures that it hopes will be enacted to help reduce the inequality.
> 
> They include higher taxes on wealth and income to ensure a more level playing field and to fund investments in public services and jobs, greater cooperation among governments on ensuring workers are paid decently and the rich don't dodge their taxes. And business leaders should commit to paying their fair share of taxes and a living wage to employees.
> 
> Max Lawson, Oxfam's policy adviser, urged billionaires to "do the right thing," and to do "what Bill Gates has called on them to do, which is pay their taxes."
> 
> ..........
> 
> The ability of the rich to avoid paying their fair share of taxes was vividly exposed last year in the so-called "Panama Papers," a leaked trove of data that revealed details on offshore accounts that helped individuals shelter their wealth.
> 
> *"We have a situation where billionaires are paying less tax often than their cleaner or their secretary," Lawson told The Associated Press. "That's crazy."*


Let them eat cake.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> Bernie in charge of the economy = f-ing nightmare. Not only is he a socialist, Bernie has never had any interaction with the real economy outside government.


So what if Bernie is a socialist.

CPP, Unemployment, universal health care, child benefits, vacation pay...........are all socialist ideas.

Business experience has no relevance to government administration, where the focus is providing services, not earning a profit.


----------



## mordko

wraphter said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/01/16/world/europe/ap-eu-davos-inequality.html
> 
> 
> 
> Let them eat cake.


I note how you and Oxfam omitted to mention that the number of people actually living in abject poverty (below $2/day) has decreased dramatically. 

Will you be happy if everyone earned $1/day? Note that income inequality will be exactly zero. 

Why are you so obsessed by people who are well off? How is that a problem? The 8 richest people (Amazon, Facebook, etc...) could be made penniless in a day by bankrupting their companies. There will be a ripple effect and lots more people would lose job and become poor. How is that good for anyone? Or would you like to give all the Facebook shares owned by Zuckerberg to people in Africa? Will that help anyone? 

Commies in Russia had a revolution to ensure that there are no rich people. They achieved it. Millions, including professors, doctors and bankers, were forced to queue for hours to buy something they can wear and there was no decent food. Some people never learn. 

Of course in the next breath the very same people who go on and on about income disparity support protectionism, which punishes the poorest people around the world.


----------



## Nelley

wraphter said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/01/16/world/europe/ap-eu-davos-inequality.html
> 
> 
> 
> Let them eat cake.


2 Guys in Canada (Thomson and Weston) have as much money as the bottom 30% of the population-and no matter how poor Selfie and Wynne can get this country, Galen Weston is going to get richer because the junk food is still going to be paid for by somebody (mainly the taxpayer).


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> I note how you and Oxfam omitted to mention that the number of people actually living in abject poverty (below $2/day) has decreased dramatically.
> 
> Will you be happy if everyone earned $1/day? Note that income inequality will be exactly zero.
> 
> Why are you so obsessed by people who are well off? How is that a problem? The 8 richest people (Amazon, Facebook, etc...) could be made penniless in a day by bankrupting their companies. There will be a ripple effect and lots more people would lose job and become poor. How is that good for anyone? Or would you like to give all the Facebook shares owned by Zuckerberg to people in Africa? Will that help anyone?
> 
> Commies in Russia had a revolution to ensure that there are no rich people. They achieved it. Millions, including professors, doctors and bankers, were forced to queue for hours to buy something they can wear and there was no decent food. Some people never learn.
> 
> Of course in the next breath the very same people who go on and on about income disparity support protectionism, which punishes the poorest people around the world.


People should be upset when governments work to stifle competition and subsidize billionaires.


----------



## Nelley

Great discussion on Trump and Fake News-this is on RT so sensitive viewers can cover your eyes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI9HwMWkDyo eyes


----------



## Parkuser

mordko said:


> A little bit earlier we had a far-right Trump supporter quoting stalinist, virulently antisemitic site.
> 
> Now we have a left-wing liberal quoting a neo-nazi, Holocaust denying virulently antisemitic website: http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/rense-web-site-promotes.html
> 
> Good stuff. I am seeing unity.


Well, how would I know. This was the first link which showed up in the google. !5 years ago it was a very popular joke.

But great ad personam, when they go high we go low.


----------



## bass player

> Oxfam used Forbes' billionaires list that was last published in March 2016 to make its headline claim. According to the Forbes list, Microsoft founder Gates is the richest individual with a net worth of $75 billion. The others, in order of ranking, are Amancio Ortega, the Spanish founder of fashion house Inditex, financier Warren Buffett, Mexican business magnate Carlos Slim Helu, Amazon boss Jeff Bezos, Facebook creator Mark Zuckerberg, Oracle's Larry Ellison and Bloomberg, the former mayor of New York.


All 8 of the richest people in the world are Democrats. It goes without saying that there would be mindless outrage from the left if they were all Republicans.


----------



## mordko

^ A demonstrably false claim. Bezos and Zuckerberg donate to both Dems and Republicans. Bloomberg is a Republican, although he used to be a Democrat (Trump went the other way). Larry Ellison is conservative. And the rest are not even Americans. 

Why say arbitrary dumb things that are so easy to prove wrong?


----------



## mordko

Parkuser said:


> Well, how would I know.


It's a good practice to check your sources. And if you find that you want to quote neo-nazis on a regular basis then ask yourself a few searching questions.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> ^ A demonstrably false claim. Bezos and Zuckerberg donate to both Dems and Republicans. Bloomberg is a Republican, although he used to be a Democrat (Trump went the other way). Larry Ellison is conservative. And the rest are not even Americans.
> 
> Why say arbitrary dumb things that are so easy to prove wrong?


I was wrong about Ellison, but Zuckerberg is a Democrat, and to suggest otherwise is laughable. Bezos gives to both, but the majority goes to the Democrats. Carlos is a major shareholder in the New York Times. Bloomberg supported Hillary.


----------



## mordko

Why repeat obvious BS once called on it? Zuckerberg is not a democrat. He donates all over the place, certainly to Dems but also to Rubio and other republicans. http://uspolitics.about.com/od/Mone...-are-Supporting-These-Members-of-Congress.htm

Sure, Bloomberg supported Hillary. I have a strong suspicion that so did Bush, albeit not openly. And John McCain. And Powell. And Lindsey Graham. That does not make them Democrats. They are far more Republican than Trump.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> ._the inauguration of Caligula . . . _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


A turnout of 200,000 is expected. They are hoping that another 900,000 people will wear the pink hats to show their solidarity with the marchers. It will be interesting to see the final number.

I like that they are holding the March the day after the inauguration so that it is perceived as speech instead of disruption.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> I was wrong about Ellison, but Zuckerberg is a Democrat, and to suggest otherwise is laughable. Bezos gives to both, but the majority goes to the Democrats. Carlos is a major shareholder in the New York Times. Bloomberg supported Hillary.


So all the Republicans who supported Hillary are really democrats?


----------



## SMK

At this point all I wonder about is how long before Trump is impeached.


----------



## humble_pie

.

_the inauguration of caligula . . . 
_
.













.


----------



## s1231

I would like to see the Government to “correct the errors” in its foreign policy and “abandon military obsession” this year .
Europe needs to get out from these messes. 
Ukraine / Europe / middle east/ World needs the funds of foods & energies instead of heavier arms without creating peace.


- The war on ISIS already has a winner: Updated: Nov 10, 2014:
fortune.com/2014/09/13/defense-industry-winner-against-isis/

It’s far too soon to tell how the American escalation in the sprawling, complex mess unfolding in Iraq and Syria will play out. But this much is clear: As our military machine hums into a higher gear, it will produce some winners in the defense industry.
New fights mean new stuff, after all. And following the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan—and the belt-tightening at the Pentagon imposed by steep budget cuts—military suppliers are lining up to meet a suddenly restored need for their wares.


- Alex Salmond has called on the Government to “correct the errors” in its foreign policy and “abandon military obsession” in his message for 2017. 
independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/alex-salmond-uk-government-abandon-military-obsession-snp-leader-scottish-mp-international-affairs-a7502171.html#gallery

"After all, we know that the Foreign Secretary actually personally believes that our allies are engaged in proxy wars."

He added: "You cannot arm regimes with stained military tactics with one hand and then raise the other to proclaim the need to uphold human rights. The lessons are clear for all in the last year, from the lessons of Libya to Yemen and Syria.


- Ukraine in Full-Blown Collapse: Deep-seated Economic, Social Crisis and Environmental Crisis :
globalresearch.ca/ukraine-in-full-blown-collapse-deep-seated-economic-social-crisis-and-environmental-crisis/5564916

You see, the Ukraine produces over half of its electricity using nuclear power plants. 19 nuclear reactors are in operation, with 2 more supposedly under construction. And this is in a country whose economy is in free-fall and is set to approach that of Mali or Burundi! The nuclear fuel for these reactors was being supplied by Russia. An effort to replace the Russian supplier with Westinghouse failed because of quality issues leading to an accident. What is a bankrupt Ukraine, which just stiffed Russia on billions of sovereign debt, going to do when the time comes to refuel those 19 reactors? Good question!
But an even better question is, Will they even make it that far? You see, it has become known that these nuclear installations have been skimping on preventive maintenance, due to lack of funds.


----------



## new dog

S1231 you seem to be one of the very few who gets it. It is all about the war machine and the money to fuel it, I have said so many times on here. Russia has always been there and a problem but not to the extent they are making them out to be. Democrats who are supposed to be apposed to war but are fooled into not caring or going along with it. Hillary was the poster child for as much war as possible but luckily she didn't get in.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump is this centuries Neville Chamberlain.

Peace in our time by making deals with dictators and tyrants.


----------



## sags

Margaret Thatcher had her own views on appeasement strategies.


----------



## mordko

Obama has already made "peace" with all sorts of dictators and tyrants. Hardly any left for Trump.


----------



## olivaw

Peace and appeasement are entirely different things.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Donald Trump is this centuries Neville Chamberlain.
> 
> Peace in our time by making deals with dictators and tyrants.


Really? Trump isn't even president yet.His general belligerence (with one exception) is well noted already.

I think the Neville Chamberlain Look-Alike Award goes to Barack Hussein Obama as he pardons Chelsea Manning in the dying days 
of his ignominious Muslim-pandering rule. 

A few of the highlights: 

the Russian reset that went nowhere
the red line in Syria that wasn't honoured resulting in Russian intervention
the premature withdrawal from Iraq which allowed ISIS(junior varsity) to emerge
An Iran deal resulting in the give away of billions and the right to get nuclear weapons in 10 years
lack of early intervention in Syria contributing to hundreds of thousands of deaths and refugees
lack of timely forceful intervention in US presidential election regarding Russian hacking might have saved Hillary
blaming Benghazi attack on video not terrorists for election purposes
flawed Obamacare for political purposes

Trump hasn't even taken office . We don't know that his deal with Russia will work


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Trump hasn't even taken office . We don't know that his deal with Russia will work



what deal with russia though

you don't mean that schoolboy prattle. _Trade you ten marbles for that big cats' eye._

maybe trump thinks the leader of all the russias will tweet him back


.


----------



## humble_pie

.

_the inauguration of caligula . . ._

.













.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> .
> 
> _the inauguration of caligula . . ._
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Most men have sex on their mind. Now they have it on their head.

Putin says Russian prostitutes are the best in the world. But those who prepared the Trump dossier
are worst than prostitutes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-conspiracy-worse-prostitution-a7531531.html

The Trump dossier claims Trump dealt with prostitutes in Moscow. Putin denies it.


----------



## sags

Did Putin just inadvertently admit prostitutes work out of that hotel, which is primarily used by foreign business leaders and politicians ?

_“He's a man who has been organizing beauty competitions, he's met the most beautiful women in the world," Mr Putin said. "I find it hard to imagine he ran to a hotel to meet our girls of ‘low social responsibility’, though they are of course also the best in the world."_

Putin says he has never met Trump. Trump said he met Putin only once.

Putin says he doesn't defend Trump and then he defends Trump.

They are having trouble keeping their stories all lined up.

The thing is.......if you tell the truth you don't have to remember what you said. If you lie, you have to remember all the past lies to make sure every following lie lines up with the first one.

Something strange in the neighborhood...........who you gonna call.


----------



## olivaw

Joke going around Silicon Valley:



> Trump is going to either last zero terms or seven


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> I think the Neville Chamberlain Look-Alike Award goes to Barack Hussein Obama as he pardons Chelsea Manning in the dying days
> of his ignominious Muslim-pandering rule.
> 
> A few of the highlights:
> 
> ........


The "highlights" are often repeated, never substantiated, always wrong and often accepted uncritically by individuals with limited intellectual means. )) To review (italics mine):

the Russian reset that went nowhere - _Russian wouldn't play ball. shrug._ 
the red line in Syria that wasn't honoured resulting in Russian intervention - _The Republican congress refused to authorize. The administration therefore accepted a deal with Russia to eliminate Assad's chemical weapons_. 
the premature withdrawal from Iraq which allowed ISIS(junior varsity) to emerge - _Sure, blame Obama for Bush's folly_. 
An Iran deal resulting in the give away of billions and the right to get nuclear weapons in 10 years - _Wrong. No give away, no nukes in 10 years. _
lack of early intervention in Syria contributing to hundreds of thousands of deaths and refugees - _Republican congress refused to authorize. (See above)_
lack of timely forceful intervention in US presidential election regarding Russian hacking might have saved Hillary - _Obama's response was calm, measured and reasonably timely. _
blaming Benghazi attack on video not terrorists for election purposes - _Romney said that in a debate and it backfired. _
flawed Obamacare for political purposes - _Politics is the art of the achievable. There are 20 million people who are pretty happy that Obama and the Ds in congress achieved it. _


----------



## sags

Trump says he will be partying all weekend and doesn't want to be bothered making any decisions until Monday.

Someone call all the bad guys in the world and tell them to take the weekend off..........:very_drunk:


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> The Republican congress refused to authorize. The administration therefore accepted a deal with Russia to eliminate Assad's chemical weapons.


Obama could have bombed Syria on his own. The Libyan bombing and the bombings Of ISIS("junior varsity") in Syria and Iraq were
done without Congressional approval.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/...ngress-to-we?utm_term=.mjz81vOlAb#.wiylJNE68P



> The president says he has “the authority” to strike Syria without Congress, but “I know that the country will be stronger” if he asks for their opinion.
> 
> ..........
> 
> “After careful consideration, I have decided the United States should take action against Syrian regime targets,” Obama said in Rose Garden address Saturday.
> 
> ...........
> 
> “Having made my decision as Commander-In-Chief based on what I am convinced is our national security interest, I’m also mindful that I’m president of the world’s oldest Constitutional democracy,” Obama said. “That’s why I’ve made a second decision. I will seek authorization for the use of force from the American people’s representatives in Congress.”
> 
> ...........
> 
> The president said he doesn’t need Congressional authorization to strike Syria, but he’s going to ask for it anyway.
> *“While I believe I have the authority to take military action without specific Congressional authorization,* I know that the country will be stronger if we take this course and our actions will be even more effective,” Obama said. “We should have this debate because the issues are too big for business as usual.”






olivaw said:


> Wrong. No give away, no nukes in 10 years.


There is a time limit of 10 to 15 years on the deal.

http://www.belfercenter.org/publication/iran-nuclear-deal-definitive-guide



> If fully implemented, the physical constraints and verification provisions of this comprehensive nuclear agreement will *effectively prevent Iran from producing fissile material for nuclear weapons at its declared nuclear facilities for at least 10 to 15 years. *
> 
> ........
> 
> *Over 10 to 15 years, the physical constraints on fissile material production at declared facilities and most of the specialized verification and enforcement provisions of the JCPOA expire. At that point, Iran could expand its nuclear capabilities within a few years to create more practical options to produce fissile material for nuclear weapons, whether at declared or secret facilities. *
> 
> ...........
> 
> While the agreement requires Iran to dismantle two-thirds of its installed centrifuges and eliminate 98% of its current enriched uranium stock, *it permits Iran to retain a substantial uranium enrichment infrastructure and to begin to expand that infrastructure after 10 years. *For 10 to 15 years, Iran will restrict the number and types of centrifuges installed and operating at Natanz, end enrichment at Fordow, limit research and development on advanced centrifuges, maintain a small stockpile of low-enriched uranium, and cap the level of enrichment. While these measures are reversible over a period of a few months to a few years, any reversal would be quickly detected.
> 
> ...........
> 
> *From year 11 to year 15, breakout time at Natanz will decline as Iran is permitted to replace its first-generation centrifuges with limited numbers of advanced models,* although the restrictions on enriched uranium stocks and enrichment level continue through year 15.
> 
> ............
> 
> *After 15 years, all physical constraints on enrichment imposed by the agreement will be lifted.* At that point, Iran could build an enrichment plant large enough to produce low-enriched uranium to fuel a nuclear power reactor within a matter of years.
> 
> ............


After 15 years there are no restrictions on uranium enrichment and the breakout time would be short.It would be short even in years 11 through 15.



olivaw said:


> Wrong. No give away,


https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/17/world/middleeast/iran-sanctions-lifted-nuclear-deal.html




> The United States and European nations lifted oil and financial sanctions on Iran on Saturday and released roughly $100 billion of its assets after international inspectors concluded that the country had followed through on promises to dismantle large sections of its nuclear program.


Obama gave away the store. Neville,is that you?


----------



## sags

Well....If Iran restarts their nuclear program, or if North Korea continues to develop a long range missile to carry nuclear weapons, President Trump is going to have some decisions to make.

Does he bomb Iran at the risk of offending their pals in Russia ? Does he bomb North Korea and upset the Chinese ?

It is difficult to predict what Trump would do. In the past he has said it might not be a bad idea for everyone in the regions to have nuclear weapons. That is a scary concept when terrorists all over the world would love to get their hands on one.

Trump is unpredictable and volatile, and he isn't interested in security briefings, so it creates some angst among allies and a lot of people.

After verbal attacks on Germany and NATO countries, the US allies around the world are contemplating withholding intelligence reports from the US, due to his ties to Russia. That would be problematic for US homeland security.

It isn't a good situation and Trump is running out of time to prove himself as a fit person for the office of President.........as Republicans had hoped he would have done long before now.


----------



## sags

CNN has been giving some excellent coverage lately with their new panels of experts.

The shrill ones are gone and people like David Axelrod, David Gergen, Kayleigh McEnany, and the others are doing a fine job of conversing on both sides of the issues, without all the yelling and screaming, talking over each other and generally giving everyone listening a headache.

I also like Obama. I think he was a thoughtful, intelligent President who did the best he could under the circumstances.

But, the "going away party" is getting a little long in the tooth.

Final press conference here, final speech there, the Obama legacy, last days in the Whitehouse special,.......and on and on.

I can't remember a past transition where so much news time was spent on the outgoing President.


----------



## olivaw

The talking point is that Iran was paid to wait 10 years before acquiring nuclear weapons. It skews truth and turns it into a falsehood.

Assets were frozen when sanctions were imposed. They were unfrozen when sanctions were lifted. There was no payment or gift.

The agreement allows for the eventual phasing out of specific restrictions. Iran is granted no explicit or implied permission to acquire nuclear weapons in ten years.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> I can't remember a past transition where so much news time was spent on the outgoing President.


to be fair to CNN

There was no CNN when Carter, Reagan and Bush Sr. left office.
Clinton was overshadowed by the Lewinsky and Jones scandals.
Bush Jr. was very unpopular by the end of his second term. 
Obama leaves with a very good approval rating. Despite his detractors, he is an inspiration to many.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> The agreement allows for the eventual phasing out of specific restrictions. Iran is granted no explicit or implied permission to acquire nuclear weapons in ten years.


Iran can legally start on the path to a nuclear weapon in 10 to 15 years.

The Belfer report upthread said:




> Over 10 to 15 years, the physical constraints on fissile material production at declared facilities and most of the specialized verification and enforcement provisions of the JCPOA expire. At that point, Iran could expand its nuclear capabilities within a few years to create more practical options to produce fissile material for nuclear weapons, whether at declared or secret facilities.


This deal, which was never voted on by the Congress and which the White House itself refers to as 'non-binding', is deeply flawed because it allows Iran to commence producing a nuclear'
bomb in 10 to 15 years.For a signing bonus , $100 billion was unfrozen and other countries have started dealing with Iran.
Russia has sent them advanced anti-aircraft missiles. Iran continues to support the barbaric Assad regime which routinely
targets civilians with barrel bombs ,conventional munitions and chemical weapons.

Iran may have secret facilities which will drastically reduce the breakout time.

Trump or any president can overturn this deal because it is only an executive order.

The permissive Iran deal, the permissive pardoning of Chelsea Manning, the permissive release of Bowe Bergdahl in exchange for 5 Taliban prisoners all show that Obama can be rolled .


----------



## sags

If Trump repeals the Iran nuclear deal and they start up their nuclear program...............then what ?

It is the "or else" part that prompted Obama to make a deal with Iran.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> If Trump repeals the Iran nuclear deal and they start up their nuclear program...............then what ?
> 
> It is the "or else" part that prompted Obama to make a deal with Iran.


Obama didn't support the Green movement in Iran in 2009. That was a missed opportunity.

The US has stealth bombers undetectable by radar. It also has bunker buster bombs.

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-pentagon-iran-20150704-story.html



> As diplomats rush to reach an agreement to curb Iran's nuclear program, the U.S. military is stockpiling conventional bombs so powerful that strategists say they could cripple Tehran's most heavily fortified nuclear complexes, including one deep underground.
> 
> The bunker-busting bombs are America's most destructive munitions short of atomic weapons. At 15 tons, each is 5 tons heavier than any other bomb in the U.S. arsenal.
> 
> In development for more than a decade, the latest iteration of the MOP — massive ordnance penetrator — was successfully tested on a deeply buried target this year at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. The test followed upgrades to the bomb's guidance system and electronics to stop jammers from sending it off course.
> 
> U.S. officials say the huge bombs, which have never been used in combat, are a crucial element in the White House deterrent strategy and contingency planning should diplomacy go awry and Iran seek to develop a nuclear bomb.
> 
> Obama has made it clear that he has no desire to order an attack, warning that U.S. airstrikes on Iran's air defense network and nuclear facilities would spark a destabilizing new war in the Middle East, and would only delay Iran by several years should it choose to build a bomb.
> 
> "A military solution will not fix it," Obama told Israeli TV on June 1. An attack "would temporarily slow down an Iranian nuclear program, but it will not eliminate it."


Obama repeatedly said everything was on the table. It wasn't. He lied.


----------



## Nelley

Small business optimism soars-seems like a lifetime ago the MSM had the sheep convinced that Trump was an economic disaster http://www.nfib.com/surveys/small-business-economic-trends/


----------



## humble_pie

.

_the inauguration . . ._
.













.


----------



## Eder

I dont get it?


----------



## new dog

I don't either but we will probably find out what sort of idiots we have on the left in the US tomorrow. We will also find out what level they will take this to and if there is anyone with deeper pockets supporting them and trying to achieve whatever it is they think they can. I am not sure if Trump will be a very good president and if the economy can hold up. The economy and economic problems are something that would be there no matter who is in power.


----------



## sags

At some point today, Donald Trump will be taken aside and told he now has the sole authority to launch nuclear weapons.

The military will inform Trump of the procedure to launch an attack. There will be no discussion on politics or the affects of an attack. It is strictly about the procedure.

He will also be accompanied with a security team to protect the suitcase.

The suitcase contains the code that identifies the order to launch was given by the President. The launch is carried out and the missiles cannot be stopped.

The Secretary of Defense "could" inform missile launch officers not to obey such an order without further confirmation, but they may refuse and follow their orders to launch the missiles. That is what they have been trained to do.

The world has just become a more dangerous place.


----------



## Eder

sags said:


> The world has just become a more dangerous place.


I think you meant a safer place...


----------



## new dog

Even safer for the financial forum as well as Buffett says we will be fine under Trump.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/20/warr...-trump-because-weve-got-the-secret-sauce.html


----------



## SMK

Buffett also said regarding the approval ratings so often mentioned here - "It's what you go out with that counts..." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...supports-trump-s-cabinet-picks-overwhelmingly


----------



## peterk

OMG he is ripping into Washington politicians! Market is tanking!


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Iran can legally start on the path to a nuclear weapon in 10 to 15 years.
> 
> This deal, which was never voted on by the Congress and which the White House itself refers to as 'non-binding', is deeply flawed because it allows Iran to commence producing a nuclear'
> bomb in 10 to 15 years.For a signing bonus , $100 billion was unfrozen and other countries have started dealing with Iran.
> Russia has sent them advanced anti-aircraft missiles. Iran continues to support the barbaric Assad regime which routinely
> targets civilians with barrel bombs ,conventional munitions and chemical weapons.


The talking point was:_ An Iran deal resulting in the give away of billions and the right to get nuclear weapons in 10 years_. Reality differs. No giveaway. Conjecture that "Iran could expand its nuclear capabilities within a few years to create more practical options to produce fissile material for nuclear weapons" is not "the right to get nuclear weapons in 10 years". Political talking points are often so removed from fact as to become a lie.


----------



## carverman

He gave an interesting rhetorical speech....and re-iterated his protectionist policies..."America First'.. "Buy American", starts now, 
and his intention to "eradicate Islamic terrorism from the face of the earth'...

"We live in challenging and tumulteous times"...

'transfer the power from Washington to you the people"

Sounds like there may be some more military involvement in the ME affairs..time will tell though. 

From what I was able interpret in the words of his rhetorical speech...he's going to set up trade barriers to restablish the return of
American business operating in other countries back to America again..with tax incentives that big business can't ignore.

This may not be a good thing for NAFTA, auto industry, forestry wood products, and any manufactured products from
Canada over the next 4 years...

*Note to Ontario Liberals.*.start governing responsibly, stop raising the price of electricity and these stupid carbon taxes..because
America under Donald J. Trump will bring back any industry exported back from Canada..and we could be in severe recession as a result.


----------



## AltaRed

I think much of what he says is rhetorical than what will actually happen. He knows it is a big ship and will take a long time to make meaningful differences. That said, he is setting the stage for what he think is wrong and where he is going to focus his attention. I think he is right to say America has given away too much. 

Example: The horrendus trade deficit with many nations, especially China has to be fixed and he is giving notice to the world that America expects a better balance. Same issue with Japan, a country in denial in immigration policy and the tariffs and blocking out of many imports, e.g. rice. Countries cannot have it both ways, i.e want free access to US markets while protecting their own.

Example: On NATO, I don't think he actually wants to dismantle it but he wants every member to pay their fair share. It is unfair for American to dedicate a higher proportion of GDP to NATO than other countries. Too many countries sucking the hind teat on this one. Canada to some degree too.

Example: Looser rules of engagement will likely be coming with respect to military adventures. The signoffs required for a drone to launch a bomb or missile is excruciating. The military is fighting with both hands behind its back.


Time will tell. Congress has a lot to say on what will actually happen in terms of approving the budgets. Don't be surprised if in a year's time, people will feel like they've drank too much of the Kool-aid.


----------



## olivaw

Gotta love Michelle Obama's facial expression. She represents the millions (or billions) of people who believe that America elected a clown.


----------



## SMK

While talking about the superficial stuff, Melania Trump looked very elegant, imo for the first time.


----------



## olivaw

The fear and disgust felt by millions (or billions) matters. Michelle Obama spoke for those people, without uttering a single word.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The fear and disgust felt by millions (or billions) matters. Michelle Obama spoke for those people, without uttering a single word.


Today must be very hard for you-cheer up-think how Crooked Hillary feels right now.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> The Republican congress refused to authorize. The administration therefore accepted a deal with Russia to eliminate Assad's chemical weapons.


 If Donald Trump or any American president, can use  nuclear weapons without the permission of the Congress,and he can,



> Trump critics note with alarm that an American president does not need the approval of Congress, his Cabinet or any other entity to order the use of nuclear weapons. Experts say the secretary of defense could pre-emptively instruct the Pentagon battle staff officers responsible for transmitting such an order to disregard it, but whether they would is unknowable.


Obama could have used conventional weapons against Syria without Congressional approval.

Similarly,Bill Clinton did not have approval from Congress for the 1998 bombing of Iraq.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Iraq_(1998)



> Although there was no Authorization for Use of Military Force as there was during Operation Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom or a Declaration of War as in WWII, on 31 October 1998 Clinton signed into law H.R. 4655, the Iraq Liberation Act.[4] The new Act appropriated funds for Iraqi opposition groups in the hope of removing Saddam Hussein from power and replacing his regime with a democratic government. Despite the act's intention being support of opposition groups, Clinton justified his order for US action under the Act.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> If Donald Trump or any American president, can use  nuclear weapons without the permission of the Congress,and he can,
> 
> 
> 
> Obama could have used conventional weapons against Syria without Congressional approval.


Congress declares war, not the President. 

Obama believed that he had the authority to intervene in Syria but there is widespread disagreement among constitutional lawyers. He chose to seek congressional authorization. Congress refused. (It chose instead to authorize very limited involvement). 

The US (and other countries) have 10 to 30 minutes to respond to a nuclear attack. The president was granted the authority to respond to a nuclear attack by launching America's nukes immediately. It's called M.A.D.


----------



## wraphter

Obama bombed Libya without Congressional approval and he could have done the same in Syria.

Declaration of war has nothing to do with it.

Go ahead make something else up.


----------



## new dog

What would he have accomplished in bombing Syria, except to make life even worse for the Syrian people.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Obama bombed Libya without Congressional approval and he could have done the same in Syria.
> 
> Declaration of war has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Go ahead make something else up.


Here you go cupcake. You like wiki so ....

*War Powers Resolution*

This too: 

*Obama Seeks Approval by Congress for Strike in Syria*

President Obama was criticized for unilaterally authorizing the use of force in Libya. He (wisely) chose to engage congress before deploying American forces to Syria. Congress spoke. Great Britain, the United Nations and NATO also declined to intervene.

Your talking point is "coulda, woulda, shoulda"


----------



## wraphter

new dog said:


> What would he have accomplished in bombing Syria, except to make life even worse for the Syrian people.


He would have stopped the slaughter of innocent Syrian civilians by the Assad regime using chemical weapons and barrel bombs. 
If the US was engaged militarily in Syria for example with a no-fly zone, the Russians would conceivably have backed off .
Hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved. That's what could have been accomplished.


----------



## olivaw

^Sounds like the justification for the invasion of Iraq. 



> Various scientific surveys of Iraqi deaths resulting from the first four years of the Iraq War estimated that between 151,000 and over one million Iraqis died as a result of conflict during this time.[1] A later study, published in 2011, estimated that approximately 500,000 Iraqis had died as a result of the conflict since the invasion.[2] Counts of deaths reported in newspapers collated by projects like the Iraq Body Count project found 174,000 Iraqis reported killed between 2003 and 2013, with between 112,000-123,000 of those killed being civilian noncombatants.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War


----------



## new dog

Wrapter do you think that a bunch of rag tag rebels filled with terrorists are going to make life better in Syria. Besides the risk of war with Russia, there is nothing I can see that the Syrian people would gain from having a chaotic regime of lunatics ruling over them. Can you imagine if the west didn't try to destabilize Syria at all. We wouldn't have a huge refuge crisis from Syria and a lot more Syrians would be alive today.


----------



## SMK

Obama had sought congressional approval as a way out, and at the very last minute. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/obama-at-war/


----------



## mordko

We have about half a million dead (including 50,000 children), 2 million injured and 5 million refugees in a country with population of 20 million.

All of it thanks to the "west" washing its hands and not moving a finger while Iranian islamofascists and the Russian regime have been involved in the conflict directly. 

It is very hard to imagine any scenario that would have been worse.


----------



## olivaw

We spoke with our close American friends today. It is a sad day for them. They say goodbye to a president that made them proud and watched the swearing in of a president that embarrasses them.

They're Americans. They don't hold back. They called their new president a "twit".


----------



## sags

After 4 years of Trump, Americans will be ready to fully embrace a Bernie Sanders youthful protege in 2020.

A more socially oriented US will look mighty good to Americans by then.


----------



## wraphter

Obama blinks. Excerpts from SMK's link to a NPR Frontline program.

There was a sarin gas attack killing 1400 in Damascus August 13,2013 . Obama had to act. Under his commander-in-chief authority
he can act without Congressional buy-in. The military goes into action to start the bombing campaign. At the last minute Obama changes his mind.

John McCain, Hillary Clinton, Leon Panetta, Robert Gates, Samatha Power, US representative at the UN, all objected
to the way Obama handled the Syrian war. 


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/obama-at-war/transcript/





> ...............
> REPORTER:
> Mr. President, could you update us on your latest thinking on where you think things are in Syria, and in particularly, whether you envision using the U.S. military—
> 
> MARTIN SMITH:
> In his response, President Obama brought up Assad’s prospective use of chemical weapons.
> 
> Pres. BARACK OBAMA:
> We have been very clear to the Assad regime that a red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized. That would change my calculus. That would change my equation.
> 
> ...........
> 
> ROBERT FORD:
> The administration understood as the regime escalated its use of chemical weapons that we would have to do more ourselves in response to that.
> 
> ............
> 
> MARTIN SMITH:
> Then a sarin gas attack on a rebel-held suburb of Damascus.
> 
> [August 21, 2013]
> 
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> PETER BAKER:
> Fourteen hundred men, women and children are killed, according to what the American intelligence agencies tell the president. At this point, the president can’t ignore it. He has to have some sort of response. He has drawn this red line. He may be trapped by it, but he understands that his credibility and the credibility of the United States are on the line.
> 
> ............
> 
> JOHN KERRY, Secretary of State:
> The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, the killing of women and children and innocent bystanders by chemical weapons is a moral obscenity. President Obama believes there must be accountability for those who would use the world’s most heinous weapons against the world’s most vulnerable people.
> 
> MARTIN SMITH:
> The president ordered the military to get ready.
> 
> MARK MAZZETTI:
> So down at Central Command in Tampa, they were drawing up possible targets. They had lists of what could be hit on the first day, what could be hit on the second day.
> 
> MARTIN SMITH:
> The consensus was that the Pentagon would launch strikes on Saturday, August 31st.
> 
> Gen. MARTIN DEMPSEY, Chmn., Joint Chiefs of Staff:
> Our finger was on the trigger. We had gone through the targeting plans and the targeting solutions. The crews were alerted. And so we had everything in place, and we were just waiting for instructions to proceed.
> 
> DAVID IGNATIUS:
> And the threat of U.S. action was enough to, you know, have— have a significant effect on the ground. It was noted all over the Arab world that, suddenly, people in the regime were panicking.
> 
> .........
> 
> PETER BAKER:
> But Obama’s having second thoughts. He’s feeling alone. His friends in Britain say, “Yes, we’re with you.” But then parliament says, “No, we’re not.”
> 
> DAVID CAMERON, U.S. Prime Minister:
> It’s clear to me that the British Parliament, reflecting the views of the British people, does not want to see British military action. I get that, and the government will act accordingly.
> 
> .....................
> 
> Gen. MARTIN DEMPSEY:
> It was a Friday night, and I got a call from the president of the United States. And he said to me, “I am considering an alternative course of action.” And he wanted me overnight to consider whether a delay would in any way affect our ability to be effective with our military options.
> 
> PETER BAKER:
> And he goes for a walk on the South Lawn with McDonough. And they circle this pathway again and again and again for 45 minutes, talking about what to do. And the president tells him, “I’ve got this idea. Why don’t we go to Congress and ask them to approve a strike?” What he’s looking for is buy-in.
> 
> DAVID IGNATIUS:
> As near as we can tell, he worried that he didn’t have sufficient political support for, you know, what might be a long-running conflict.
> 
> Col. ANDREW BACEVICH (Ret.), Author, The Limits of Power:
> *The president was looking for a way to not have to make good on the threat that he had made.* I think because the president, having drawn that red line, realized that he had no appetite for direct military engagement in Syria.
> 
> PETER BAKER:
> *So he comes back in from this walk with Denis McDonough, and he tells some of his other advisers, and they can’t believe what they’re hearing. This is a crazy idea, as far as they’re concerned. “If you go to Congress,” they tell him, “and you lose a vote like this, it would be devastating to your political standing.” And they push back, and he held firm.*
> 
> 
> ..............
> 
> Pres. BARACK OBAMA:
> After careful deliberation, I have decided that the United States should take military action against Syrian regime targets. But having made my decision as commander-in-chief based on what I am convinced is our national security interests, I will seek authorization for the use of force from the American people’s representatives in Congress.
> 
> DAVID IGNATIUS:
> At the time, you know, he was describing it as seeking strong political support for this decisive move. He had all the rhetoric of action. But in truth, it was stepping back from the imminent attack that was ahead. *You know, it was all in motion, and at the last minute, the president blinked.*
> 
> ...........
> 
> OUBAI SHAHBANDAR, Syrian Opposition:
> I was there in southern Turkey at that time, and I can tell you that the Syrian people were looking at the skies, hoping that the United States Air Force would come to the rescue. And then all of a sudden, on September 1st, the Syrian people woke up and realized that the United States was not going to come to the rescue.
> 
> AMR AL-AZM, Syrian Opposition:
> No. I think it was a terrible, terrible error on the part of this administration. I mean, it’s not just a red line. This is the president of the United States, this is the White House, and a tinpot dictator challenges that and gets away with it? Who’s going to believe you next time?


*The president was looking for a way to not have to make good on the threat that he had made.*

*You know, it was all in motion, and at the last minute, the president blinked.*


----------



## new dog

I don't really believe Assad ordered the gas attack. I don't see where Assad would gain anything from using gas except for certain defeat at the hands of the west. I suppose anything is possible but it seems very unlikely that he would be that stupid.


----------



## Eder

olivaw said:


> We spoke with our close American friends today. It is a sad day for them. They say goodbye to a president that made them proud and watched the swearing in of a president that embarrasses them.
> 
> They're Americans. They don't hold back. They called their new president a "twit".


Here in the Bay of Banderos Americans were blowing the horns on their boats when Trump finished taking the pledge. Seemed very happy to me.


----------



## wraphter

Bahia de Banderas= Bay of Flags

Puerto Vallarta is located there.

Not to be confused with Antonio Banderas.:redface:


----------



## sags

Great find Wraphter............it is always interesting to peek behind the curtain to see how decisions were made.

Obama was a great leader in many ways, but he did not possess the fortitude to do what many other Presidents have had to do.

I watched a documentary on George H. Bush, filmed at his ocean side home and other places. In answer to a question on his most difficult decision, he paused and his eyes watered up...........and he said sending people into battle knowing some of them may not come back. 

The President orders the troops in and then has to call the families and attend the funerals of those who do not return.

Obama just didn't possess the internal strength and resolve for that.

Trump may have the fortitude to do that, but I question if he has the patience and ability to accept the advice of others.

It seems to me to require a combination of both fortitude and humbleness.......with Obama lacking one and Trump lacking the other.


----------



## sags

new dog said:


> I don't really believe Assad ordered the gas attack. I don't see where Assad would gain anything from using gas except for certain defeat at the hands of the west. I suppose anything is possible but it seems very unlikely that he would be that stupid.


The rebels were winning and Assad was desperate. There was talk of the west helping him leave Syria to end the conflict.

Maybe Assad didn't want to end up like Ghaddafi..........pulled out of a car and beaten and shot.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> I don't really believe Assad ordered the gas attack. I don't see where Assad would gain anything from using gas except for certain defeat at the hands of the west. I suppose anything is possible but it seems very unlikely that he would be that stupid.


Assad was losing. He was desperately trying to hold to power.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Great find Wraphter............it is always interesting to peek behind the curtain to see how decisions were made.
> 
> Obama was a great leader in many ways, but he did not possess the fortitude to do what many other Presidents have had to do.
> 
> I watched a documentary on George H. Bush, filmed at his ocean side home and other places. In answer to a question on his most difficult decision, he paused and his eyes watered up...........and he said sending people into battle knowing some of them may not come back.
> 
> The President orders the troops in and then has to call the families and attend the funerals of those who do not return.
> 
> Obama just didn't possess the internal strength and resolve for that.
> 
> Trump may have the fortitude to do that, but I question if he has the patience and ability to accept the advice of others.
> 
> It seems to me to require a combination of both fortitude and humbleness.......with Obama lacking one and Trump lacking the other.


By any objective standard, Obozo was the worst ever-and George Bush Jr was the second worst-a rough 16 years of Presidents.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> Obama was a great leader in many ways, but he did not possess the fortitude to do what many other Presidents have had to do.


_Fortitude_? What high school nonsense. 

Did the British Conservative government also lack _fortitude_? How about the UN, NATO? Did Canada lack _fortitude_ - after all, I recall no public clamour to send Canadian troops in. 

We discussed it on this forum. Did those who opposed intervention lack _fortitude_? 

The American public opposed intervention. America's allies, having learned from participation in the invasion of Iraq, refused to participate. Did they lack _fortitude_? 

Obama showed _fortitude_ in Libya. How did that work out? Congress pinned the deaths in Benghazi on his Secretary of State and blamed Obama for every subsequent problem in the middle east. 

There are legal limits to what a president can do, lest a president with too much _fortitude_ kills to many people. I linked to them upthread. 

As for the outcome - it's all coulda, woulda, shoulda. A lot of people looked at Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya. Perhaps they decided that _fortitude_ was not going to turn out as well as hoped. 

But sure, a narrative can be created to back up a political talking point. Just leave out nuance, complexity and political reality of the time. It impresses uncritical thinkers. And people who adore _fortitude_.


----------



## humble_pie

AltaRed said:


> On NATO, I don't think he actually wants to dismantle it but he wants every member to pay their fair share. It is unfair for American to dedicate a higher proportion of GDP to NATO than other countries. Too many countries sucking the hind teat on this one. Canada to some degree too.



canada is definitely below the 2% of GDP that NATO members are supposed to pay.

however, the argument can be made that NATO is little more than a force for spreading & enforcing the _pax americana_, so why should other nations pay extravagantly for it?

dollar-wise, canada supports NATO with more than 1% GDP, i believe. In addition canada contributes routinely to non-NATO US military initiatives, for example iraq/syria. The sole major exception in recent years was jean chretien's refusal to send canadian soldiers into iraq under president bush.

less visibly but perhaps more importantly, canada shares with the US the costs of NORAD, whose range extends to the high arctic. Northern canada defence has turned more active in recent years, with growing threats from both russia & north korea.

.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> _Fortitude_? What locker room nonsense.
> 
> Did the British Conservative government also lack _fortitude_? How about the UN, NATO? Did Canada lack _fortitude_ - after all, I recall no public clamour to send Canadian troops in.
> 
> We discussed it on this forum. Did those who opposed intervention lack _fortitude_? I thought that they were struggling to decide on the best way forward but I guess they just lacked _fortitude_.
> 
> The American public opposed intervention. America's allies, having learned from participation in the invasion of Iraq, refused to participate. Did they lack _fortitude_?
> 
> Obama showed _fortitude_ in Libya. How did that work out? Congress pinned the deaths in Benghazi on his Secretary of State and blamed Obama for every subsequent problem in the middle east.
> 
> There are legal limits to what a president can do, lest a president with too much _fortitude_ gets a lot of people killed. I linked to them upthread.
> 
> As for the outcome - it's all coulda, woulda, shoulda. A lot of people looked at Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya. Perhaps they decided that _fortitude_ was not going to turn out as well as hoped.
> 
> But sure, a narrative can be created to back up a political talking point. Just leave out nuance, complexity and political reality of the time. It impresses uncritical thinkers. And people who adore _fortitude_.


Priceless-aren't you the chicken hawk calling for war with Russia every 5 minutes?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Priceless-aren't you the chicken hawk calling for war with Russia every 5 minutes?


Has somebody suggested war with Russia? We were talking about Syria, not Russia. But on the subject of _fortitude_, why not show some and quit hiding behind the sock puppet ID?


----------



## humble_pie

.

_post-inauguration . . ._











.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Has somebody suggested war with Russia? We were talking about Syria, not Russia. But on the subject of _fortitude_, why not show some and quit hiding behind the sock puppet ID?


Paranoia might be a side effect of your meds-I would assume most readers of your comment don't have any idea what you are talking about-I know I don't.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Paranoia might be a side effect of your meds-I would assume most readers of your comment don't have any idea what you are talking about-I know I don't.


As always, thanks for the 14 year old's perspective but what was your prior ID before you created the Trump pumper alias?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> As always, thanks for the 14 year old's perspective but what was your prior ID before you created the Trump pumper alias?


You are the one writing the comic book-I would assume you know which supervillain I was in my previous life.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> By any objective standard, Obozo was the worst ever-and George Bush Jr was the second worst-a rough 16 years of Presidents.


This is absurd. Obama worse than Nixon, by every standard? If you say stupid things, you tend to earn that label in the eyes of others.


----------



## mordko

Obama was worse than Nixon. Nixon may not have been a pleasant man, but his presidency wasn't such a complete disaster. 

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/the-american-epoch-is-over-it-ended-on-obamas-watch


----------



## andrewf

Obama was objectively, incontrovertibly worse than Nixon, by every standard? Including, say, criminality? Or even pleasantness? The original statement is indefensibly stupid.


----------



## olivaw

> the red line in Syria that wasn't honoured resulting in Russian intervention


As I have said previously, this is one of a string of political talking points that has been parroted on this forum. When examined critically, talking points like this don't pass muster. 

Obama made the statement. Then he was isolated. The rest of the world declined to intervene. Most Americans opposed intervention. Congress was asked to support intervention (consistent with the War Powers Act and the Constitution) and they declined to fully authorize. 

Some people say that the Republicans in congress sabotage Obama for political purposes? Did they? 

Probably not. The was no single resistance in Syria. There was no known path to victory. There was no known path to an outcome that could be remotely acceptable. Congress did what it always does - it figured out how to dodge responsibility.

ETA: Kerry on the red line: http://thehill.com/policy/defense/313574-kerry-obama-never-retreated-from-his-red-line-in-syria


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Obama was objectively, incontrovertibly worse than Nixon, by every standard? Including, say, criminality? Or even pleasantness? The original statement is indefensibly stupid.


Obama is more pleasant than Nixon was-so is Selfie Boy-this is all little snowflakes like yourself understand.


----------



## andrewf

So, you concede that your original assertion was nonsensical. Good work--personal growth!


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> You are the one writing the comic book-I would assume you know which supervillain I was in my previous life.


Just conjecture and perhaps I am wrong. If I recall, your ID showed up and you averaged 40 or 50 posts per day - all in support of the Hillary health conspiracy theory. Was it all just a happy coincidence? Are you a random conspiracy theorist who happened to stumble across our election thread and decided to help bass_player in his quest to prove that Hillary would drop dead before election day?


----------



## olivaw

Nixon? 

Nixon Tried to Spoil Johnson’s Vietnam Peace Talks in ’68, Notes Show


> “There’s really no doubt this was a step beyond the normal political jockeying, to interfere in an active peace negotiation given the stakes with all the lives,” said John A. Farrell, who discovered the notes at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library for his forthcoming biography, “Richard Nixon: The Life,” to be published in March by Doubleday. “Potentially, this is worse than anything he did in Watergate.”


Nixon put his own ambitions before those of his country. He put his ambitions before the lives of American soldiers. 

Some believe that Trump is the new Nixon.


----------



## sags

You were right Humble.........

The anti-Trump protests in the US and around the world are massive. Historic numbers of people in a sea of pink hats.

Even if Trump doesn't get the message, the politicians in the US seeking re-election surely will, and so will politicians around the world.

What Trump and the hard liners in the GOP want to take away from the people...........the people aren't going to quietly allow them to.

The message to the GOP is also........you can go to all the work of making these changes, but it will be temporary and a waste of your time.

In 4 years we will work to defeat you and put it all back together again.

The GOP may find it just got considerably more difficult to have some of their legislation passed in Congress and the Senate.


----------



## sags

I didn't think much of Trump's Inaugural Address and didn't think there was much of a positive reaction from the crowd. I

It felt kind of odd and awkward for Trump at times. There were no huge cheers of support.

CNN produced a picture and enlarged it. You can zoom in and move around.

Look at people's faces as Trump was giving his address. Disbelief, concern, disapproval, shock.....not much happiness in those faces.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/01/politics/trump-inauguration-gigapixel/


----------



## like_to_retire

sags said:


> The anti-Trump protests in the US and around the world are massive.


And yet, when they're asked what they're protesting, they don't have an answer.




sags said:


> ..didn't think there was much of a positive reaction from the crowd.


They didn't have time to check their social media accounts to know how they should react.

ltr


----------



## olivaw

^Sometimes protests lack a cohesive message but I don't think that is the case here. 

The message is that these folks are motivated and they are not going away. 

Trump's victory was not the end of the argument. It was the start.  Good on em. 

(As an aside, I am thrilled that so many protestors have expressed admiration for Hillary Clinton. Different discussion though).


----------



## humble_pie

like_to_retire said:


> And yet, when they're asked what they're protesting, they don't have an answer.




no? what i saw were millions of men & women with hundreds of thousands of signs & banners - often in pink.

all declaring exactly what policies, statements, tweets & tips from donald trump they were protesting.

the pink-hatted anti-trump crowds in washington today appeared to be bigger than yesterday's turnout for the actual inauguration ceremony. Although they said there was dense cloud coverage, so it was difficult to get an aerial count.

.


----------



## like_to_retire

humble_pie said:


> no? what i saw were millions of men & women with hundreds of thousands of signs & banners - often in pink.
> .


Yeah, but they forgot to wait until he actually did something before they protested. In power for less than 24 hours hardly qualifies. What has he done? Nothing yet.

I won't bother posting videos of these numbskulls being interviewed. Oh my goodness.....

ltr


----------



## sags

The protests won't overturn the election, but may affect how some Republicans vote on key issues. 

The Republicans only have a 2 seat majority in the Senate and a 5 seat majority in Congress.

Some of those Republicans were "never Trump" members.

It is also an opening salvo on the 2018 mid term elections.

_The 2018 United States elections will mostly be held on Tuesday, November 6, 2018. These midterm elections will take place in the middle of Republican President Donald Trump's term. All 435 seats in the United States House of Representatives and 33 of the 100 seats in the United States Senate will be contested. 39 state and territorial governorships and numerous other state and local elections will also be contested._


----------



## new dog

I don't know why women around the world are protesting. Like like_to_retire says he hasn't done anything yet and I don't think he is going to do anything to women's rights. Then they are protesting racism and everything under the sun that the media tries to pin on him. Hillary who they love, was the most dangerous person in America for gays, women and minorities and maybe in four years they can vote in someone who can properly destroy America.

I should say however that the US is in bad shape and I am not sure Trump will be able to pull off a better America but at least it sounds like he will try to.


----------



## Eder

The big problem is not Trump...it was the Dem's fielding someone just as bad or worse. Doesn't anyone know how to play this game?


----------



## new dog

Here is how the nice peaceful left talk. Madonna swears and muses about blowing up the white house. Woman around the world can stand behind her for the hope of worldwide violence.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/21/politics/madonna-speech-march/


----------



## olivaw

A president elect has a job. It is to unite the country behind the new administration before Inauguration Day. Trump failed. 

He failed so miserably that it inspired millions of loyal Americans to March in peaceful protest.

The Women's March on Washington was a huge success.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> I don't know why women around the world are protesting. Like like_to_retire says he hasn't done anything yet and I don't think he is going to do anything to women's rights. Then they are protesting racism and everything under the sun that the media tries to pin on him. Hillary who they love, was the most dangerous person in America for gays, women and minorities and maybe in four years they can vote in someone who can properly destroy America.
> 
> I should say however that the US is in bad shape and I am not sure Trump will be able to pull off a better America but at least it sounds like he will try to.


Russian Puppet has committed to nominating a pro life judge to the SCOTUS.


----------



## bobsyouruncle

olivaw said:


> A president elect has a job. It is to unite the country behind the new administration before Inauguration Day. Trump failed.
> 
> He failed so miserably that it inspired millions of loyal Americans to March in peaceful protest.
> 
> The Women's March on Washington was a huge success.


I'm no Trump fan, but the media bias to present him as a devil is evident. 

Eventually every sane person is hoping the bias will blow over and the man gets evaluated on what he does and doesn't do.

Furthermore, many of the protests are far from peaceful and most of the pointless. Like the Woman's March.


----------



## sags

At the CIA visit, Trump praised Fox News coverage of his Inauguration.

Apparently he didn't see the compilation of polls from various sources, where a Fox News poll ranked Trump the lowest at a dismal 37%.

If he sees it..........it will be "bad Fox News, terrible news agency, corrupt".


----------



## new dog

This is where I agree Sags, Trump does need to earn the respect he is hoping for through his actions and his talk from now on. The media has been extremely bias as bobsyouruncle says but at the same time he has the job now and has to get on with the task of making America better.


----------



## new dog

andrewf said:


> Russian Puppet has committed to nominating a pro life judge to the SCOTUS.


So what, I believe in pro life as well. If Hillary was in she would do the opposite because that is what their parties and voters favour.


----------



## olivaw

Trump uses Twitter to bypass so-called "media bias". With each tweet his approval rating declines. 

It's not the messenger, it's the message.


----------



## mordko

It doesn't matter what the approval ratings are during inauguration. Nor does it matter what they are during the presidency. It matters what they are 20 years down the line. Reagan's ratings were average during his Presidency, but they rocketed in retrospect. In Britain Maggie Thatcher is seen as the most capable PM of our lifetime, but she wasn't always popular while in office.


----------



## olivaw

What matters is political capital while in office. Low approval ratings signal a lack of political capital and an inability to get things done. 

Numbers improve after every president leaves office. GW saw his numbers improve but nobody believes that he should be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. Even Nixon's numbers went up.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> It doesn't matter what the approval ratings are during inauguration. Nor does it matter what they are during the presidency. It matters what they are 20 years down the line. Reagan's ratings were average during his Presidency, but they rocketed in retrospect. In Britain Maggie Thatcher is seen as the most capable PM of our lifetime, but she wasn't always popular while in office.


If Russian Puppet wants to get Congress to go along with his plans, it helps to have the support of the public. Representatives are facing elections in less than 2 years, as well as a good portion of the Senate.


----------



## Nelley

Listen to Kellyanne Conway totally dominate slimy little weasel Chuck Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5WzkNXkVzg


----------



## andrewf

I wonder if Kellyanne is trying to coin the new word of the year with "alternative facts", otherwise known as lies/falsehoods.


----------



## new dog

I agree with a lot that Conway says but it does bother me as well that Trump made a issue about crowd size. It is a minor issue but it is a problem because it looks like a falsehood and could be one if he doesn't do something to explain it. Trump does need to rise above stuff like this even in the face of extremely unfair reporting against him. If however he can't explain it then he needs to come out and say that he was wrong to make it an issue because he can't properly show the evidence. Then he needs to learn from this and not bring forward issues like this unless he can show the facts.


----------



## sags

Listening to Trump's meeting with CEOs today, it sounds like he is backing away from large tax reductions for corporations and focusing on removing regulations instead. 

His comments on free trade and manufacturing in the US sound like he is solidly committed to an import tax.

He also commented that trade with China is so unfair due to China's protectionist policies blocking imports, that he is surprised nobody has does anything about it before.

Unions have certainly been talking about the problem for quite some time, as politicians continued to ignore the growing negative effect.

Compared to the deficit in trade with China, the trade among Canada, Mexico, and the US will only require a little jiggling to balance it more equally.

If a country should be worried about Trump's policies, I think it would be China.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> I wonder if Kellyanne is trying to coin the new word of the year with "alternative facts", otherwise known as lies/falsehoods.



a crescendo of derisive laughter is coming from journalism schools. 

"We teach no course in alternative facts," says Frank Sesno, director of the school of media & public affairs at george washington university.

"We will flunk you if you use alternative facts," he adds.

.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> I agree with a lot that Conway says but it does bother me as well that Trump made a issue about crowd size.




the issue is far more than a bother. The issue is that Sean Spicer is dead as a doornail. At his very first press conference in his newly minted job, he came out & told a pinocchio lie with a nose bigger than a california redwood.

from now on, spicer's rep with the media is going to be toast.

working journos tend to regard most media directors & press secretaries as not very much more than a bunch of ho's. Amiable, hyperlexic, chatty, even appealing they might be; but every working scribe will never forget that the suits are still working for da boss & they are still spinning a story.

.


----------



## olivaw

It appears that Trump has abandoned TPP. It was largely expected. 

At this point, further consideration of TPP in Canada is pointless. Continued open trade with the United States was the primary reason we even considered it. 

(There was an interesting thread on CMF a few months ago where the argument was advanced that TPP existed only to protect America's outsized influence on world trade)


----------



## bobsyouruncle

The intolerant left showing their bigotry outside the VP's home:


----------



## bgc_fan

olivaw said:


> It appears that Trump has abandoned TPP. It was largely expected.
> 
> At this point, further consideration of TPP in Canada is pointless. Continued open trade with the United States was the primary reason we even considered it.
> 
> (There was an interesting thread on CMF a few months ago where the argument was advanced that TPP existed only to protect America's outsized influence on world trade)


IIRC the main driver was to establish a regional bloc of countries that could counteract the influence of China in the Pacific region. I believe that one of the conditions for TPP was that it had to be ratified by enough countries to have the combined GDP of a certain threshold, but without USA, that threshold can't be met. 

There were other things about extending USA's influence on laws and policies, particularly on copyright and patent protection. One of the funnier/sad things that I saw during the election was a TPP protester (in the USA) complaining that TPP will cause pharmaceutical prices to increase as it makes drug patents last for 20 years. Apparently he didn't realize the fact that is the current protection in the USA.


----------



## mordko

^ That's very well summarized but let's not confuse protectionists with facts.


----------



## olivaw

bgc_fan said:


> IIRC the main driver was to establish a regional bloc of countries that could counteract the influence of China in the Pacific region. I believe that one of the conditions for TPP was that it had to be ratified by enough countries to have the combined GDP of a certain threshold, but without USA, that threshold can't be met.
> 
> There were other things about extending USA's influence on laws and policies, particularly on copyright and patent protection. One of the funnier/sad things that I saw during the election was a TPP protester (in the USA) complaining that TPP will cause pharmaceutical prices to increase as it makes drug patents last for 20 years. Apparently he didn't realize the fact that is the current protection in the USA.


That's consistent with my recollection. I believe that there was also mention in the thread (or a linked article) about protection of the USD as the primary international reserve currency. It was suggested that the Chinese trading block would impose a different basket of currencies and that would be counter to America's interest.


----------



## sags

Trump surrogates are assuring Canadians that Trump likes us..................


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Listening to Trump's meeting with CEOs today, it sounds like he is backing away from large tax reductions for corporations and focusing on removing regulations instead.
> 
> His comments on free trade and manufacturing in the US sound like he is solidly committed to an import tax.
> 
> If a country should be worried about Trump's policies, I think it would be China.


I tend to agree, since a large amount of consumer and industrial goods that used to be manufactured in the US has now been exported to be manufactured in Asian countries. 
China,Korea, Japan to some degree, and the Pacific ring countries.

Today, it's very difficult to NOT to find "MIC" (made in China) on almost anything the consumer buys, but try to
find a "Made in USA" stamp is another story entirely. 

Even heavy machinery such as roadbuilding/mining heavy eqt has Asian names these days...Komatsu, Sany,XCMG, Doosan, Hitachi (Japan) etc.
Caterpillar at least is still made in the US.



> The machines that America produces help the U.S. economy produce other goods and perform a variety of services, but they are also an important U.S. export. In *2013, the United States exported $142.1 billion of machinery*, 12 percent of total exports of manufactured goods. By contrast, machinery makes up only 7 percent of total manufacturing shipments, indicating the outsize role this industry plays in international trade.
> 
>  *The United States imported $142.3 billion of machinery in 2013, resulting in a trade deficit of $0.2 billion.* While this is a small deficit, the *overall manufacturing trade deficit was much larger at $680.4 billion,* providing another indication of the strength of U.S. machinery manufacturing.


https://www.thebig5hub.com/galleries/top-10-construction-machinery-manufacturers/#prettyPhoto[0]/9/


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## carverman

Trump met with US automakers yesterday and told them that he wants US production to increase as NAFTA rewritten to favour the US. Tarrifs will be imposed on vehicles made
in Mexico.

Doesn't look too good for Canadian automakers either. If the Trump administration slaps on new tarrifs on US brand car Made in Canada "imports", it could mean that the assembly lines in Oshawa, Oakville and Windsor/Brampton start to slow down
production because the Canadian market is not even a tenth of the US Market.

Vehicles are cheaper in the US already compared to the same vehicles made here in Canada.
With additional tariffs imposed, there won't be as much demand for dealers in the US to sell them if they can get even better deals for the same model made in the US factories with concessions from the Trump administration.



> U.S. automakers have been reluctant to open new U.S. auto plants in recent years, but they have expanded operations at existing U.S. plants. GM and Ford last built new U.S. assembly plants in 2004, while Fiat Chrysler opened a new transmission plant in Indiana in 2014.


fortune.com/2017/01/24/donald-trump-auto-executives-increase-production/

www.thestar.com/business/2017/01/04/trumps-tough-talk-good-news-says-canadian-auto-union.html


Rewriting NAFTA..the Canadian economy had nothing to worry about as mentioned by one expert interviewed?
But how accurate is that? Another "alternate fact'? Ontario may have a lot to worry about!


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