# National Covid19 tracing app. Will you use it?



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

The app was developed by workers at Shopify and Blackberry. Being tested in Ontario. Rollout in July. 
will you use it?









Coronavirus contact-tracing app to launch nationally in early July, Trudeau says | Globalnews.ca


The prime minister said the app, which will be tested in Ontario, will notify users if they've been exposed to COVID-19 and its use will be 'completely voluntary."




globalnews.ca


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

No, who knows where your information will end going. An example of this is the Tim Horton's app:

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1750877251726


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> The app was developed by workers at Shopify and Blackberry. Being tested in Ontario. Rollout in July.
> will you use it?
> 
> 
> ...


Wonder how effective it'll be as "they say" it doesn't use location data.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

I might (BIG) if the government (or whoever in charge of that program) buys me an Iphone for a start.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Wonder how effective it'll be as "they say" it doesn't use location data.


"They" are lying.
If the data exists, they'll try to get the data they'll use it, and share it.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid19-data-police-1.5544272



I don't doubt for a second that the police would love to know every single person you interact with, and when.

Sure it's for "public health", but crime is also a "public health" issue.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> "They" are lying.
> If the data exists, they'll try to get the data they'll use it, and share it.


Well if the App doesn't have access to location data just how are they going to get it?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Same answer I gave my employers: if you want me to use a phone, you buy the equipment. And then I'll turn it on and use it when it's convenient for me.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Well if the App doesn't have access to location data just how are they going to get it?


Cell tower & wifi proximity data is available on just about all phones. It's not as accurate as GPS data but does a pretty good job at tracing where someone has been, if you don't need high granularity.

This kind of data can also be correlated with the user as a second step. *So even if the app itself doesn't have location tracking abilities*, the data can be used -- in a second step -- to correlate with location data.

Meaning that it's possible to track someone's location in any case.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Cell tower & wifi proximity data is available on just about all phones. It's not as accurate as GPS data but does a pretty good job at tracing where someone has been, if you don't need high granularity.
> 
> This kind of data can also be correlated with the user as a second step. *So even if the app itself doesn't have location tracking abilities*, the data can be used -- in a second step -- to correlate with location data.
> 
> Meaning that it's possible to track someone's location in any case.


Under android wifi and/or cell tower data are accessible only when you give location permissions. I'm sure though that many can get a very gross location via the current ip address used.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

cainvest said:


> Under android wifi and/or cell tower data are accessible only when you give location permissions. I'm sure though that many can get a very gross location via the current ip address used.


Yeah sure, but Google Maps defaults to tracking your position every second of every day of your life on an Android phone unless you change that in your settings. 

Most don't.

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> Yeah sure, but Google Maps defaults to tracking your position every second of every day of your life on an Android phone unless you change that in your settings.
> 
> Most don't.
> 
> ltr


True but if you're concerned enough about it you've likely turned it off.

I'd say most don't care that their phones location is tracked.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Well if the App doesn't have access to location data just how are they going to get it?


No, they'll use whatever data they can get. In this case, they'll be able to map out who interacts with who.

There is a reason privacy advocates are not happy.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

I'm wondering why most people are concerned about others knowing their location?

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> No, they'll use whatever data they can get. In this case, they'll be able to map out who interacts with who.
> 
> There is a reason privacy advocates are not happy.


I don't see the problem ... it's not like "have to" install this app.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> I'm wondering why most people are concerned about others knowing their location?


Good question ... Google pays me to know my location.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> I'm wondering why most people are concerned about others knowing their location?


Because the information can potentially be used against me.

It's the same reason that when you fill out a government form for something, you don't attach pages and pages of your entire life story. You provide only the information required and leave it at that; when you volunteers lots of extra information about yourself, it can potentially hurt you.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Under android wifi and/or cell tower data are accessible only when you give location permissions. I'm sure though that many can get a very gross location via the current ip address used.


I think you missed the bolded part of my message. It's just not just about this app and the permissions it has. This particular app may not have location permission - fine.

The problem is that additional information from other apps, including Google, could be combined together. By looking across several apps, police/govt can get far more information than what a single app provides.

For example: say there's another really bad COVID wave. The government declares a national state of emergency (or something) and demands that Google and telcos provide all their data "for health and safety". They can then combine this with the app, and get far more location-tracking data than you agreed to.

The telcos always have the data of which cell towers you use (and therefore your location), and can provide it to government. They can do this no matter what settings you use on your phone.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Because the information can potentially be used against me.


In what way can the information be used against you?

I went and got a haircut yesterday and today I went for a bike ride. Now you know. How will you use this against me?

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> I think you missed the bolded part of my message. It's just not just about this app and the permissions it has. This particular app may not have location permission - fine.
> 
> The problem is that additional information from other apps, including Google, could be combined together. By looking across several apps, police/govt can get far more information than what a single app provides.
> 
> ...


I know, however this isn't a thread on "big brother" it's about "one app" that you can choose to use.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> In what way can the information be used against you?
> 
> I went and got a haircut yesterday and today I went for a bike ride. Now you know. How will you use this against me?


Exactly. I think some people are drawn to the data being used for nafarious reasons. I'll be taking the dog for a walk soon but of course, google already knows this.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Exactly. I think some people are drawn to the data being used for nafarious reasons. I'll be taking the dog for a walk soon but of course, google already knows this.


There's a reason you close curtains when you're at home at night. Even if we're just sitting around doing nothing, many of us don't want people watching (and recording!) our every action. That's called privacy.

The "nothing to hide" argument is flawed. Privacy is about protecting yourself, and my exact location is potentially sensitive information -- it can reveal a lot about me.

A simple and obvious example is that thieves can use it to strategically rob my home. Robbers already do this. A location is also useful to stalkers and abusers.

I don't want Google, this app, or the government to track my location. This information often escapes and gets into others' hands. Even if you fully trust Google and the government, you should still be opposed to location tracking, because it won't be just Google & government who find out your sensitive data.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Thats fine if you feel the need to "stay under the radar", I personally just don't see the need for it in many cases.
You could turn off location info, pay for your phone and air time with cash (aka burner phone) and don't use any apps that may track you in other ways. How far you want to go with that is totally up to you.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> I don't see the problem ... it's not like "have to" install this app.


Today, the government might decide that it's in the interest of public health to track you.
Then they will.

Once they have access to your phone, they WILL ignore their own rules and use it however they want. 
With no accountability, and no recourse.
They've done it before, they'll do it again.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think people's concerns are about getting their information hacked, which seems to happen all the time.

We recently got an notification from Rogers that one of their advertising partners had been hacked and it contained our personal information.

So we give our personal information to Rogers and they give it out to some third party advertiser ?

The least offensive outcome is we get advertising we don't want. The worst is our information gets hacked by someone else.

They gave us one year free credit monitoring at TransUnion. It is a real pain when someone steals your identity.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In one of the other threads people were discussing calling or becoming involved with the police.

I would hesitate to call the police on any matter, unless it was an emergency. I avoid them like the plague.

I don't think people understand the "system" very well, and don't know that every time the police officer takes out their notepad and writes down their name, it is entered into data files. These files are not part of the RCMP CPIC files and are held locally by the police. They are not subject to any of the protections surrounding CPIC files and can remain even after a record suspension is obtained (pardon). It is up to local police forces how long they keep them.

I was in court one day to support a young friend of my son whose parents wouldn't help him. The Crown Attorney said that "Mr. John has had 22 "contacts with the police" in an ominous tone.The Crown didn't bother to explain that Mr. John had called the police when he was a witness to an accident, or was stopped numerous times doing nothing more than driving down the main drag on a Saturday night. No.........he had al these "contacts", so he must have criminal intent was the clear message the Crown wanted to convey.

My point is..........the authorities will gather information on you. You don't need to be helping them do it.

So no, I won't be using the app. I will continue to social distance and stay away from large crowds and other people until there is a vaccine.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

james4beach said:


> I think you missed the bolded part of my message. It's just not just about this app and the permissions it has. This particular app may not have location permission - fine.
> 
> The problem is that additional information from other apps, including Google, could be combined together. By looking across several apps, police/govt can get far more information than what a single app provides.
> 
> ...


So why is there even a need for a tracing app? From what you're saying, the government can get this info anyway?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The responses to this thread were oh so very predictable. This forum does seem to attract some very paranoid people.

I will not be using it since I don't use any apps. I use my cellphone to make and receive phone calls, that's it, for me it is a PHONE. 

I do hope many people do use the app since it will help with tracing and advising people if they have been near someone who has declared themselves positive for Covid-19. Regardless of any other potential use someone might fear, if it is used to advise people of their risk of exposure that in and of itself is a good thing.

The conspiracy theorists will find a conspiracy in anything anyone suggests doing.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> This forum does seem to attract some very paranoid people.


It does seem that way.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

That's what they said about General Custer..........and look what happened to him.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> That's what they said about General Custer..........and look what happened to him.


I had no idea they tracked him by his phone ....


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> In what way can the information be used against you?
> 
> I went and got a haircut yesterday and today I went for a bike ride. Now you know. How will you use this against me?


*I'm* not a bad guy, and I'm not an abusive government, nor am I a crooked cop who has a beef with you, nor am I a crooked tech worker who is stealing your data off the servers and reselling them on the black market.

You don't have to be concerned about what I might do with your data. You have to be concerned about what these ^ characters can do with your data.

Once your data exists out there, it can easily be stolen / hacked into, and get into the hands of bad people.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Once your data exists out there, it can easily be stolen / hacked into, and get into the hands of bad people.


Again I don't understand what someone could do with the fact that I might have gone to a Home Depot at some point. What the app will do for me though is alert me if I've come into contact with someone who has tested positive for COVID-19. 

Besides, the app is anonymous.

Voluntary nationwide contact tracing app coming soon, says Trudeau

_"Because it's completely anonymous, because it's low maintenance, because it is completely respectful of your privacy, — including no location services or geotagging of any sort — people can be confident that this is an easy measure that they can have to continue to keep us all safe as we reopen, as we get more active."_

ltr


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> Voluntary nationwide contact tracing app coming soon, says Trudeau


It appears the app would be useless for me, I don't use bluetooth.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

cainvest said:


> It appears the app would be useless for me, I don't use bluetooth.


What kind of phone doesn't have Bluetooth?

ltr


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I think I'll give it a miss.

The story linked by the OP says this, in part:

_Other app users whose devices have been in proximity to the phone belonging to the person with the coronavirus will then be alerted that they’ve been exposed to someone with COVID-19. That notification will encourage those other people to reach out to their local public health authorities, according to Trudeau._

Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see the term "proximity" defined. Does it mean that one came within 1 foot, 10 feet, 1 mile or what of the Covid carrier's phone?

And what will it get me to "reach out" to a local public health authority? I would expect to be told to watch for sx. Is that not what we all do now? I can see situations where scores will be "reaching out". Next, we'll need to flatten the curve of reachers. They'll overwhelm the public health authorities switchboards (or whatever serves as a switchboard nowadays). 

I think I'll throw in my lot with the paranoid group. The less I am tracked, videoed, monitored, etc., the better I like it. Bad enough living in a city these days. There are cameras and monitoring devices everywhere. Even walking down the street in a quiet neighbourhood means that dozens of doorbell cams and who-knows-what else will catch you adjusting underwear.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

like_to_retire said:


> What kind of phone doesn't have Bluetooth?
> 
> ltr


Yeah, even General Custer's phone had Bluetooth.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

While I too am concerned with the privacy issue, everything I’ve read suggests that electronic contact tracing such as this has been very effective in parts of Asia. 

I‘m by no means an expert, but I think if you own a cell phone you Already can be traced. The data is already there is it not......if someone wanted to steal, sell or use it? don’t the cell phone companies already have this data? If so, I don’t see the additional risk. Or is the concern that we are voluntarily sharing this data? 

I’d like to quickly know if I’ve been around someone infected.......just so I could avoid my Family who are susceptible.........cause as we know, many, including members here And myself, are not strictly adhering to the bubbles/social distancing guidelines For immediate family.


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## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

I think those who claim that we have nothing to hide and we should not have issue with our rights being violated, may be ignorant to whats going on behind the scenes. Our data is certainly being used against us, and tracking the hundreds of little things you do each day can create valuable data points to cleverly manipulate you. Companies are spending lots of money to get this data for a reason.

Here's the trailer to "The Great Hack" and I recommend watching the whole documentary to better understand how this isn't as harmless as it appears.






edit- I'm referring more broadly to data collection overall, not covid/ contact tracing in particular.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

5Lgreenback said:


> I think those who claim that we have nothing to hide and we should not have issue with our rights being violated, may be ignorant to whats going on behind the scenes. Our data is certainly being used against us, and tracking the hundreds of little things you do each day can create valuable data points to cleverly manipulate you. Companies are lots of money to get this data for a reason.


You're right. The scope of "data mining" is extensive and we're not aware of much of it, because of poor disclosure and poor regulations that protect privacy rights.

In other countries, there are examples of this kind of data collection (similar to tracing and location histories) having an impact on likelihood of becoming a criminal suspect, credit/consumer scores, and negative government attention of persecuted groups.

What bothers me is how asymmetric the pros and cons are. The possibility of getting negative attention from police, tax authorities, and health insurance are horrible possible "cons".

There is no correspondingly amazing "pro". It's not like I will suddenly receive cheques for $10,000 because somebody likes my location history.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If I recall the expert testimony correctly from the Michael Rafferty trial, his cellphone was tracked even when it was off.

I think the expert said you have to remove the battery, as the phone automatically "pings" off cellphone towers testing for a signal.

I believe the non-technical term is the phone and tower have a "handshake". It seems to me that happens in air flight monitoring as well.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> What bothers me is how asymmetric the pros and cons are. The possibility of getting negative attention from police, tax authorities, and health insurance are horrible possible "cons".


I think this COVID19 tracing app is the exact opposite of that, yet everyone seems scared of it. If the adoption is low, then it won't be effective, so given the responses on this thread I suspect it will fail - too bad, it could have offered some valuable info to people. This app seemed to me to be so much more benign than a simple Google Maps program that everyone uses every day to help them find a location or direct them in their car to a destination. Do they not realize how much data they are handing over compared to this anonymous COVID19 tracing app? I don't think so.

ltr


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> I think I'll give it a miss.
> 
> Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see the term "proximity" defined. Does it mean that one came within 1 foot, 10 feet, 1 mile or what of the Covid carrier's phone?


Bluetooth has a very short range - much shorter than home wifi or cellular. Something like 10m typically, but up to 100m


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Thanks RP for adding to my knowledge.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> I think this COVID19 tracing app is the exact opposite of that, yet everyone seems scared of it. If the adoption is low, then it won't be effective, so given the responses on this thread I suspect it will fail - too bad, it could have offered some valuable info to people. This app seemed to me to be so much more benign than a simple Google Maps program that everyone uses every day to help them find a location or direct them in their car to a destination. Do they not realize how much data they are handing over compared to this anonymous COVID19 tracing app? I don't think so.


Anonymizing and properly implementing security are extremely hard to do correctly. I work in this field and look at this stuff routinely.

I don't trust them to properly "anonymize" the data. Certainly not an "app" that they hastily rolled out... it would take a significant amount of review and auditing to ensure that something like this truly preserves privacy and anonymity.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

It's amazing how willing some people are to give up their rights or their privacy under the guise of "safety".


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> What kind of phone doesn't have Bluetooth?
> 
> ltr


I just never have it on (like wifi), saves on battery life.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> I just never have it on (like wifi), saves on battery life.


I never turn it on either. Like you, I leave Wifi and Bluetooth off to save battery power.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Longtimeago said:


> .
> 
> The conspiracy theorists will find a conspiracy in anything anyone suggests doing.


The naive will call truth a conspiracy


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Baby steps, down loading the app is one step closer to being injected with a microchip to restrict freedom of movement.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> I never turn it on either. Like you, I leave Wifi and Bluetooth off to save battery power.



Without Bluetooth how do you connect to your car's computer to receive all your texts, email, phone calls, and listen to your music while driving?

Without Wifi how do you connect to the internet?

Save on battery power? - your battery won't last a day?

ltr


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

I will use the app depending on what permissions it asks for and how much it uses my battery (that constant Bluetooth scanning has got to be a power draw).

I'm also one of those who keep Bluetooth off unless I need it, but I leave Wifi on for convenience because I don't have a data plan (just don't need it).

LTR: My phone battery lasts for 5-7 days between charges. I mainly use it 1-2 hours a day as a music player with very occasional phone calls/texts. Fewer charge cycles mean the battery has a longer lifespan and reduces the need to replace the phone after a couple years.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Save on battery power? - your battery won't last a day?


I haven't had a phone that lasts a day since my Blackberry.
Today my phone lasts maybe 2-3 hours, to be fair it's 3 years old and in need of an upgrade, but with new phones at $1-2k, that's a crazy fast upgrade cycle.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

It always amuses me when this issue of privacy comes up that people don't see to realize they already have no privacy from those who may want to invade it. It is simply not possible to maintain privacy in this digital age unless you go off into the wilderness and become a hermit in a cabin with no contact to the outside world.

Often people here in this forum talk about credit scores for example. How do you think you can have a credit score without your privacy having been invaded? 

Privacy is something that existed in the past, not in the present and so whether someone chooses to use this app or not, is not going to change that by even anything close to 1%.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

off topic.....It’s been my experience that credit scores are virtually meaningless for everyone that pays their bills on their....which is probably 80-90% of people. Whether you’re 700,720,780.......I haven’t seen any benefit to a higher score. You may get a slightly better on unsecured credit (loans and LOCs)......I never priced mortgages on credit scores. I’ve yet to see any other financial benefits for me. Generally, your score is either acceptable or not.
for borrowers at the margins, there are some score minimums that are need for credit approvals.


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## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

Longtimeago said:


> It always amuses me when this issue of privacy comes up that people don't see to realize they already have no privacy from those who may want to invade it. It is simply not possible to maintain privacy in this digital age unless you go off into the wilderness and become a hermit in a cabin with no contact to the outside world.
> 
> Often people here in this forum talk about credit scores for example. How do you think you can have a credit score without your privacy having been invaded?
> 
> Privacy is something that existed in the past, not in the present and so whether someone chooses to use this app or not, is not going to change that by even anything close to 1%.


So we should just accept that our rights and democracy are have been compromised by big business interests and not raise awareness?

I do fear you may be correct, lack of awareness has allowed it to get as bad as it is, and the toothpaste probably can't get squeezed back in the bottle. Scary times ahead.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> Without Bluetooth how do you connect to your car's computer to receive all your texts, email, phone calls, and listen to your music while driving?


I just pull over if a text,call,email is important but most of the time I wait and respond at my destination. Music is from the radio or sd card.

Side note: It's suprising how many have turned their phones into electronic leashes. When it makes a sound many fell the need to (and do) respond immediately.



like_to_retire said:


> Without Wifi how do you connect to the internet?


I turn data on, if I need it. Leaving wifi (or bt) on when travelling uses much more power when a known connection isn't available, it's constantly scanning for connections.



like_to_retire said:


> Save on battery power? - your battery won't last a day?


It may or may not last an entire day, depends on what I'm doing. If just texting with no data,wifi,bt use it'll last all day or more.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> Without Bluetooth how do you connect to your car's computer to receive all your texts, email, phone calls, and listen to your music while driving?


You're kidding right? I don't want my car to be beeping and buzzing with texts and emails... what a horrifying thought. Dangerous too!

No, I definitely keep my phone disconnected from the car as much as possible. It's easy to listen to music using a simple audio cord.



> Without Wifi how do you connect to the internet?


I don't use the phone for very much internet, maybe 500 MB a month. Sometimes I just use my data plan. Other times I turn on Wi-Fi when I need it, disconnect it later when I don't.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Heck, I thought you millennial types were connected all the time, and now I find everyone shuts everything off.

I have everything turned on all the time, then I don't have to think about it. I pick up my earphone buds and they connect, I get in my car and it connects. No fuss.

I place my phone down on my wireless charger every night and pick it up every morning. All charged for another day. I don't have to play with all the turning things on and off all the time. Must be very tiring. Now I know why everyone is looking at their phones all the time, they're turning things on and off.

ltr


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

I noticed this change on my phone today.....

_Social media is buzzing__ with complaints from people after apparently discovering that Apple or Google has suddenly uploaded a COVID-19 tracking app to their phone without permission. Here's what actually happened....._

ltr


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Maybe I'll jump onboard when COVID-20 comes out. COVID-19 will soon be obsolete.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> Without Bluetooth how do you connect to your car's computer to receive all your texts, email, phone calls, and listen to your music while driving?


I don't need Bluetooth to read email or texts...they come to my phone and I check them when I stop. All my music is on a 64gig USB drive. If the phone rings when I'm driving they can leave a message and I'll get back to them.

My phone is for my convenience...I use it when I want and when it's safe and convenient.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> Heck, I thought you millennial types were connected all the time, and now I find everyone shuts everything off.
> 
> I have everything turned on all the time, then I don't have to think about it. I pick up my earphone buds and they connect, I get in my car and it connects. No fuss.


More important than being a millennial, I work in computer security. The one thing you learn in security is that more interfaces = more danger.

Each additional interface that's turned on (mobile data, wifi, bluetooth, NFC, GPS, even wi-fi tethering hot spot) creates additional privacy and security risks. Many of these protocols are incredibly complex and have all kinds of subtle vulnerabilities.

Bluetooth has a pretty bad security track record, and I would not walk around with Bluetooth turned on.

Most Android phones can be hacked via Bluetooth right now: What to do



> How to prevent your phone from getting hacked
> In that case, Ruge has some advice.
> 
> One, he wrote, "*only enable Bluetooth if strictly necessary*. Keep in mind that most Bluetooth-enabled headphones also support wired analog audio."


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

All I know is that I firmly believe that Donald Trump is currently President of the United States, almost solely due to his very resourceful sub contracted advisor's (Cambridge Analytica) strategically using internet data, tracked from all American's via websites like facebook, google, etc.

When a guy like DT can actually become the leader of the largest economic and military power in the world, you have to believe that this data can be used in a very dangerous way...and due to those benefits, definitely will be. This is a lot more then just getting you to buy a particular brand of refrigerator.

Just be aware of it. This tracking all sounds so benign but it is not. and yes, I am certainly paranoid. I mean...Donald Trump...really? Think about it. That is certainly powerful stuff and obviously very dangerous.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Trump used readily available internet data.

Hillary also used readily available internet data plus had help from Obama, the FBI, the DOJ, Hollywood, celebrities, musicians, talk show hosts, and 90% of the media.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Exactly. Therefore it is dangerous to allow this data to be readily available or sold to the highest bidder. It is powerful stuff and needs to be protected as such.


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## alexincash (May 27, 2020)

OptsyEagle said:


> Exactly. Therefore it is dangerous to allow this data to be readily available or sold to the highest bidder. It is powerful stuff and needs to be protected as such.


I feel like there's a strong degree of personal accountability here too, not just at the corporate level. Facebook collects and leverages your data - but you don't have to use Facebook. Google does it too - but you don't have to use Google products. I'm subscribed to both platforms but I'm also aware of the data risks, if I was truly looking to be off the grid I wouldn't use these services at all. Now, obviously data analytics is becoming such an all-encompassing field that every company looking to stay competitive is doing it, but there are so many different measures you can take at the consumer level (at the expense of convenience of course) to protect your data. At the end of the day, using these services is a privilege not a right.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I don’t worry about privacy too much......I’m sure I’m under-informed though.

for those who say “well, I don’t use Facebook” or any other program. I learned something. I asked Facebook for all the data they had on me. One surprising thing they had was all the names and phone numbers stored on my phone’s contact list. So FB had the name and phone number for people who have never used FB.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

These sites may be a privilege perhaps but google is getting closer to a necessity these days and for many, facebook is soon becoming one of them.

What they need to do is at least create laws surrounding what data can be collected and how it must be secured and what can be done with it. First, however, people need to be made aware of how powerful this data can be, in the wrong hands. I will reiterate again. Donald Trump is currently the President of the United States. Think about that reality for a minute. How do you think that could happen? Everyone liked his platform? Please, think again! His people used internet data to effectively manipulate the "persuadables" since it is the persuadables that tend to determine the outcome of most elections. Persuadables are the very large group of people, without much political interest, but wrongfully believe that it is everyone's duty to vote no matter what. So they do. These people don't know it but they are very easily manipulated and they were. That is how Donald Trump won the election. This is very powerful stuff...and very dangerous.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Trump won because he was running against Hillary.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> Trump won because he was running against Hillary.


Trump won because he was running against Biden.

Sorry a little foreshadowing there.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I think perhaps a little more understanding is required here to get a feel for how this type of thing is done. As I said, elections tend to swing with the persuadables. A persuadable is someone who has very little interest in politics and few political views. A very large group of citizens indeed.

Lets take an example of a facebook user. This user has no political opinion. They post many pictures about their dog. They talk about their mother in a nursing home and they post a picture of their partner who just happens to be the same gender as them. So what does that tell us and what can be done with that?

As we get closer to the election, this user will magically start receiving political ads on Facebook. An ad talking about how Joe Biden supported a bill to ban dogs running in dog parks without a leash. The ad never mentioned that this was specific to Pitbulls who had a history of vicious behaviour, but that was not the point. Later they recieve an ad about Biden supporting a bill to ban homosexuals in the military or same sex weddings. etc. Another ad shows Donald Trump hugging his dog and mentioning that he supports better care in Nursing homes. There might even be a picture of another dog of the same breed as our facebook users, in the background, to capture their attention so they actually look at the ad. That other dog was never in that picture before.

Election day comes and although this facebook user doesn't have much of an opinion on politics, he votes because he believes it to be his civic duty and although he is not sold on Donald Trump for some reason he really does not like the other guy and the "X" goes right beside Donald Trumps name. Now multiply that by millions and millions of persuadable facebook users and presto !

That is how Donald Trump became President of the United States. I just think that this is very dangerous. This data is powerful and very useful for many many purposes. Some useful to us, but some as I said, could be quite dangerous to the way we use to live our lives.

I am just saying...


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

OptsyEagle said:


> I think perhaps a little more understanding is required here to get a feel for how this type of thing is done. As I said, elections tend to swing with the persuadables. A persuadable is someone who has very little interest in politics and few political views. A very large group of citizens indeed.


How does your theory explain away the over abundance of left leaning media and their continual pounding of how horrible everything Trump does. You just can't find a positive story in the media, even though he has accomplished some positive things. And yet, he will likely win.

ltr


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I thought I just did explain it. Remember, at the end of the day, the only thing that really matters in an election are votes, not public opinion. Votes.

I mean how else could this guy win, if not by manipulating persuadable people. The more you know about a person the more you can manipulate them. Facebook provides so much personal information it is virtually easy to do.

Do you think the guy in my example cares about the free trade agreement or what happens with China? Compared to his dog, his partner and his mother, those things take such a back seat that it is not funny. Again, this person does not think much about politics on any given day. These political ads are all generated by computer algorithms and tend to happen a few weeks before the vote. They usually have some small amount of truth but more importantly are geared to persuade that voter that their guy is all for them and the other guy is not. People are lazy. No one is ever going to fact check the validity of all this stuff, especially someone who in not interested in politics. As I said these are non-political people...but they still vote. The benefits of all this comes together on voting day. It really does work.

If you stop and think about it, it really is the only way a guy like Donald Trump could have been elected to President. We are probably lucky it was Donald Trump. What if it had of been a reincarnation of Adolf Hitler? This is what I am talking about. Not whether some company manipulates you into buying their products but when some group manipulates you into giving them the power over the US military, the economy and all those codes for their nuclear weapons, that is when it gets really scary, if you ask me. It needs to be stopped or at least controlled to some degree...before it is too late.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

OptsyEagle said:


> I mean how else could this guy win, if not by manipulating persuadable people. The more you know about a person the more you can manipulate them. Facebook provides so much personal information it is virtually easy to do.


I just wonder if there's a contradiction here. I don't really know as I have never had a Facebook or Twitter account, so my knowledge only comes from the news, which is suspect at best.

First, you have to agree the media does nothing but portray Trump negatively, as is the case now and in the last election. So, that should have worked against him?

Second, social media as far as I can see completely slams Trump all the time, regardless of what he does?

Why do you feel this helps him win?

ltr


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Because the people who are swinging the vote in DT's favour are not watching that stuff. They are uninterested in political issues. They are different then you and I. There are no ads in this universe that could get me to vote for Donald Trump and I suspect you are the same. We are not persuadable.

In most elections the two sides are usually fairly close when you consider that in the last election both had to win Primaries. But in any election there are a large group of undecided voters. They are usually less interested in politics because if they were interested at all, they would probably be decided.

What DT's group did in the last election is focus on the undecideds to swing the vote. These are people they call "persuadables". They have very little interest in political issues BUT they still vote because we live in a society that says it is our civic duty even if you have no idea what you are doing. I won't talk to the brilliance of that mindset but I just want to point out the fact that currently, in our society, it is the politically correct view on the issue of voting. So DT's online group (Cambridge Analytica) used personal knowledge from the internet (most Facebook) to easily manipulate these idiots to vote for Donald Trump. The Russians also did this same thing but they were a lot less concerned with truthful advertising, although I wouldn't say DT's group were sprouting completely truthful info about Hillary Clinton either.

Anyway, if you can win the Primary's and convince 20 or 30 million undecided persuadables to vote for you, then you can become President of the United States. In my opinion, it has now been proven. I doubt Donald Trump even knows how he did it. I suspect he actually thinks the majority of Americans actually like him. That had little to do with it. His group convinced 10s of millions of Americans to NOT like Hillary Clinton, by using their personal information they put online to manipulate them towards that view. That is how he won.

and it is very dangerous and needs to be stopped. At the least, people need to be made aware of it. This personal data is powerful and is being used in ways you really might not like.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

OptsyEagle said:


> Because the people who are swinging the vote in DT's favour are not watching that stuff. They are uninterested in political issues. They are different then you and I. There are no ads in this universe that could get me to vote for Donald Trump and I suspect you are the same. We are not persuadable.


Sure, but the problem is that if you look at it reasonably, there is no way to convince someone to vote for Joe Biden.
The guy is arrogant, senile, add in the behaviour around girls & women thing, and he's even less electable than Trump.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Money172375 said:


> for those who say “well, I don’t use Facebook” or any other program. I learned something. I asked Facebook for all the data they had on me. One surprising thing they had was all the names and phone numbers stored on my phone’s contact list. So FB had the name and phone number for people who have never used FB.


So, IIRC Facebook creates "shadow profiles", so that if someone isn't on FB, but is on a phone contact list, or labeled in a photo, it all gets assembled into a profile, so that the minute that person joins, the whole profile is activated and all the photos that are labeled are confirmed. Throw in some pattern recognition and it'll find other photos of that person, i.e. photos of untagged people that look similar. Part of that is due to the fact that you can "tag" a person in a photo if they aren't on Facebook. But this was years ago, I suspect they've advanced a lot since then.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

One thing to not forget about is that these databases or other valuable data is a hot commodity on the black market. Hackers, criminal gangs, and even foreign governments are _constantly_ trying to get into these databases.

This is a big reason you should be concerned about privacy.

So even if a tracking app is made with the best intention, by the best people, who will honour their promises to protect you... the hackers who break into these systems don't make the same promise.


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## alexincash (May 27, 2020)

Fortunately this app is labelled as voluntary - at the end of the day, youll have the option to withdraw from their covid tracing tools. The real privacy issues arise if it became mandatory for all Canadian residents.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

OptsyEagle said:


> Because the people who are swinging the vote in DT's favour are not watching that stuff. They are uninterested in political issues. They are different then you and I. There are no ads in this universe that could get me to vote for Donald Trump and I suspect you are the same. We are not persuadable.
> 
> In most elections the two sides are usually fairly close when you consider that in the last election both had to win Primaries. But in any election there are a large group of undecided voters. They are usually less interested in politics because if they were interested at all, they would probably be decided.
> 
> ...


And some are gullible enough think that Facebook which has been proven to have a long history of censoring the right has somehow been used to support Trump. Facebook, Twitter, Google, and 90% of the media openly supported Hillary and suppressed positive Trump information.

Trump won in spite of Big Tech and the media, not because of them. Had he had a level playing field it would have been a slaughter.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Prairie Guy said:


> Trump won in spite of Big Tech and the media, not because of them. Had he had a level playing field it would have been a slaughter.


Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about it. We'll see how it works out this time, as again, there's a mighty media and social media machine pushing against him, just like last time, maybe even more so.

ltr


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

It doesn't really matter who uses it or who wins and who loses. My main point is that this data is powerful. Way more powerful then the average joe understands and I think it is time for our leaders to recognize this and put in measures to try to control it. Before that can happen we need the average person to understand it and I suspect that will take a lot longer...unless everyone reads this forum, which as we know, they don't.

Hopefully it happens before it is too late. As I said, this can be very dangerous. It is not just allowing the weather site to know where you are to provide local forecasts. Once you do that everyone knows where you are. Once they know that, probably 1/2 of your defenses are now neutralized. Add to that, they probably now also know the name, age, location of your mother, father, sister, wife, child, grandchildren, place of work, type of car you drive and what you like to do on a Saturday night, and you now pretty much have no more defenses at all.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OptsyEagle said:


> It doesn't really matter who uses it or who wins and who loses. My main point is that this data is powerful. Way more powerful then the average joe understands and I think it is time for our leaders to recognize this and put in measures to try to control it. Before that can happen we need the average person to understand it and I suspect that will take a lot longer...unless everyone reads this forum, which as we know, they don't.
> 
> Hopefully it happens before it is too late. As I said, this can be very dangerous. It is not just allowing the weather site to know where you are to provide local forecasts. Once you do that everyone knows where you are. Once they know that, probably 1/2 of your defenses are now neutralized. Add to that, they probably now also know the name, age, location of your mother, father, sister, wife, child, grandchildren, place of work, type of car you drive and what you like to do on a Saturday night, and you now pretty much have no more defenses at all.


What is it that I am supposed to need to defend? What I do on a Saturday night? Defend it from who and why?


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

The more someone knows about you the more power they have to manipulate you. What they do with that power is up to them and their imagination.

Look. I am not saying don't let the weather site know your location. I am just trying to warn everyone that this data, that many feel is benign, is not. It can be quite dangerous.

Would Donald Trump be the President without it. I don't know. Did it help him. That has already been confirmed. 

People, there were congressional hearings about what I am talking about. Just google Cambridge Analytica, Whistleblower Christopher Wylie or google anything from Brittany Kaiser, who also worked for Cambridge at a high level, during the Trump campaign. This is scary stuff. The manipulation of voters, I speak of, actually happened. I am not dreaming this up from some sweaty nightmare I had. I couldn't have come up with this on my best day.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

OptsyEagle said:


> The more someone knows about you the more power they have to manipulate you. What they do with that power is up to them and their imagination.
> 
> Look. I am not saying don't let the weather site know your location. I am just trying to warn everyone that this data, that many feel is benign, is not. It can be quite dangerous.


It's interesting there is some concerned over data collected by Google, Apple, smart phone apps, etc but really no discussion about the current trend of companies moving towards cloud computing. So in many cases companies are now storing their previously locally stored data on someone elses computers on the internet which may include privileged and/or sensitive information.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

cainvest said:


> It's interesting there is some concerned over data collected by Google, Apple, smart phone apps, etc but really no discussion about the current trend of companies moving towards cloud computing.



Yeah, I am certainly more concerned about my broker being hacked than I am about a COVID-19 tracing app that is anonymous and simply tracks where I am in relation to people with the virus. I also have concerns about cloud storage, and so never use it. I try and store all my data on my computer, but that's not possible when it comes to a bank or broker.

ltr


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I guess what I am saying is make sure whenever you give away information on yourself that it is of some real value to you. The Covid19 tracing app may very well be one of those. I don't know enough about it.

The other thing I would like people to do is get a little angry in how this data is stored, protected and used. It is only with this anger that we might ever hope for some real change. In the least, Facebook should be banned from running political ads on their platform. I ask myself, if all those congressional congress people know what I know and probably more why are they not doing that. The sinnister side of me thinks that it is because, now that they know how it works and what it can do to win elections, they now plan to use this power for themselves, as well. What politician wouldn't? It is certainly not a coincidence that most internet platforms pledged to stop political ads on their platforms, during elections, except Facebook. I believe the reason for that, is because political ads would be more powerful then most other ads and therefore can be sold at a much higher price. They would now be mandatory for any political campaign. Knowing what I know now, I doubt anyone can ever be elected, without a program to manipulate voters on Facebook. It is just too easy and too successful in generating votes on election day. It really needs to be stopped. I imagine it is happening in Canada as well. Why wouldn't it?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Well...Happy Pandemic everyone!

*Hackers target Canadians with fake COVID-19 contact-tracing app disguised as official government software*


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks for that warning Eder, that could be really bad.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Longtimeago said:


> What is it that I am supposed to need to defend? What I do on a Saturday night? Defend it from who and why?


They quarantine the healthy for 14 days just for coming in contact with another healthy person through contract tracing. Breaking the families apart divide & conquer. You cant make this stuff up. If you do not have the mark of the beast that you have been vaccinated with who knows what to reduce the population you freedom of movement will be gone. Based on you being a good slave you will be rewarded with crypto currency


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

There is nothing new under the sun. How did the bible predict the anti Christ & the mark of the beast ? Years ago was there a similar scamdemic/plandemic? Maybe the ancients years ago were more advanced then we give them credit for & they had vaccines & or tracking devices. If it happened before it will probably happen again as time passes.

Or maybe there was time travel ? Gravity & time are in direct relationship to each other. Since gravity as we know can not be screened future gravity becomes present become past which results in us accumulating gravity. Which can be witnessed as we sag back to earth as we age & accumulate more gravity. The earth pulls down the moon pulls up as the moon gets farther from earth over the years the taller species have been over come by the less gravity pulling upwards. If gravity can be screened so there is no accumulation of gravity. Perhaps some how time travel is possible.

Maybe it was just a guess but kinda interesting that somehow the bible was able to predict the anti Christ & the mark of the beast. Based on the story Jesus was a healer the opposite would be to promote death. WHO ? ( not talking about the Corrupt World Health Organization who gets their funding from the guy that wants to reduce the population, vaccinate us all & inject us with microchips) Though they pretend to be all goodie 2 shoes. just like the bible said people will fall for it thinking the anti Christ is a saint. Pretending to give billions away while having a bit of a monopoly on the media & has a monopoly on world health. So far it has not all played out will be interesting to see what happens.


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## leoc2 (Dec 28, 2010)

Hell ya ...._I'm loading the app to protect all my fellow CMF'ers!_


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Time to buy a burner phone


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