# Awarded $0 in student loans, what to do?



## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Hey everybody! I'm going back to school for an MBA starting in August. I applied for gov't student loans through BC Student Aid and received no funding. In my faulted honesty I disclosed how much I had in stocks and they used this as grounds to assume I'd cash out and use that.

Naturally I feel sick about emptying my TFSA, as it's four years of hard work. It's also always performing above all expected interest rates so it makes sense to keep it. I'll likely check with both the university and the banks to see what they offer, but asking here first for those with knowledge and experience on the matter.

University loans? Banks? Cash out stocks? Any other way to get that interest free grace period from the gov't? Thanks.


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

Welcome to real life... Our socialist government punishes hardworking savers and rewards careless spenders. Just wait until you finish studying and seeing people bringing in money from government welfare, false disability claim, EI when one choose to ignore working etc. 

You will end up with a huge student loan... your peers at your age, getting a union or government job, on the other hand, will get a fat pension at work so they don't need to save at all for retirement. C'est la vie... the sooner you accept it, the sooner you become happier. Life is unfair that's all.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

argo u are a pearl beyond price.

never lose this honesty. It'll stay with the rep. Some day serious financial partners & colleagues are going to entrust giant deals to you on a word, on a handshake, on a nod, on a look alone.

i don't have knowledge or experience on the student loan biz. My kids don't have student loans. I help them financially & they hold part-time jobs.

but don't most banks have the same interest-free student loan period, although their eventual interest rates might be higher than what you used to call the gummint?

obviously, try first the bank whose broker has your TFSA.

if you hang onto your invested assets for the 2 years it takes to pursue the MBA, you'd already be ahead, because you'd gain the extra 2 years of interest-free earnings, also tax-free if compounded within the TFSA.

in a worst case scenario you might have to use some invested assets to pay off the bank loan if you don't land a job soon after graduating. C'est pas la fin du monde. You did nearly kill yourself working those hard manual labour jobs up north precisely in order to save $$ for those graduate degrees, non?

assuming you have saved more than the maximum $31k that can be injected into a TFSA, me i would keep the tax-free account inside the innermost fortified tower. Spend the other saved $$ first, when bank loans turn out to be insufficient. Don't let the TFSA go, otherwise all its compounding tax-free earnings during the years you'll be a student will be lost.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

I am not sure what your RRSP looks like, but have you considered withdrawing under the Life Long Learning Plan? You will loose some years in tax deferred compounding, but at least you won't be paying somebody else interest, or maybe having to pay capital gains taxes by cashing out your stocks.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

as best i can remember argo doesn't have much of an rrsp.

if he has to sell a few stocks here or there from a non-registered account, as a student he would probably have little or no income taxes to pay. Capital gains at 50% might mean a few dollars at worst. Would be preferable to interest or dividend income for a low-earning student.


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

I don't have RRSP, a maxed out TFSA with stocks plus growth is most of my savings. I will probably have to sell my gold and vehicle to get me through the first bit. Having a look around online, it seems most everything points one towards gov't student loans that I've already applied for. Bank may only have student line of credit with a max of $10k. I may be in more trouble than I even thought before. Screwed for honesty, screwed for saving.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

diligently try all the banks ...

afterthought: all you could have injected into a TFSA would have been $31k. Whatever happened to all the $$ you were supposed to have saved up while risking life & limb working roughneck up north for high pay?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Hey maybe the month after you pay your tuition the stock market will drop out. The government could be saving you thousands! :biggrin:

So a young person with a little bit of money saved up can't get a _LOAN_ from the government for a few years to attend school and likely do something useful for his country with that education for the next 40 years.

But the government with happily _GIVE_ $13,000 to retired couples making $140,000/year in pension and investment income because it feels they need som extra "Old Age Security" to help them out. :rolleyes2:


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

As I recall, there is an appeal process. Back when I was going to school I too was rejected initially but, on appeal, managed to score some bursaries which I didn't have to pay back at all.


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

@humble: I basically broke even doing all that. With all the unforeseen downtime, massive expenses, and vacationing I did during my Alberta time it didn't work out as planned. I got it out of my system at least!


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

I hope that the senior CMF members who previously decried the ethicality of lying to receive student loans or investing said funds can at least appreciate the consequences of that honesty.. It is not just "kids these days with no morals" bla bla bla. It is real people, young people, having to make real decisions. And if they take the high road it could ultimately lead to the unravelling of their career plans and change the course of their life. Not a trivial matter...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

argo in a worst case scenario you could shop *all* the banks, even the credit unions, to negotiate the lowest possible student line of credit interest rate ... this has to be below your dividend return from investment account (which by the way you might need to transfer to the best-offering bank's broker).

what you'd be doing is sort of a custom-tailored smith manoeuvre.

you might have to work part-time. Neighbourhood banks here are full of students working part-time as tellers etc. at night & on saturdays. Equally the supermarkets & pharmas appear to be staffed uniquely by part-time students. 

a 15,000 LOC plus another 10,000 from part-time employment & you could get by on that, with a little emergency help from the investments if necessary. Plus probably keep the vehicle & maybe even the gold.

PS Just a Guy's suggestion also looks good to me. Go to appeal? merit-oriented bursaries? you have huge talent, argo, dig deep & don't let them tell you nay.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

peterk said:


> I hope that the senior CMF members who previously decried the ethicality of lying to receive student loans or investing said funds can at least appreciate the consequences of that honesty.. It is not just "kids these days with no morals" bla bla bla. It is real people, young people, having to make real decisions. And if they take the high road it could ultimately lead to the unravelling of their career plans and change the course of their life. Not a trivial matter...



u are not getting it peterk & the tongue-lashings u are handing out these days are a new departure, what's up with u?


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

Thinking way outside.....perhaps an idea for "Kickstarter"?
Or maybe......some of us sitting on cash earning a whopping .65% in a "super extra savings account" would rather invest in a young man's education. Providing he sells us his soul, of course!


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Are you sure you need a MBA? You seem smart enough and I'm sure you have a specific goal that requires this degree, but to be successful an MBA is not a prerequisite.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

As just a guy said, I would appeal, and see what grants and bursaries are available. There is actually a lot out there, but you need to really dig.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The next idea would be to get a job, do well for a couple of years and see if they'll invest in you and send you to get an MBA. Many businesses will pay for education.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

peterk said:


> I hope that the senior CMF members who previously decried the ethicality of lying to receive student loans or investing said funds can at least appreciate the consequences of that honesty.. It is not just "kids these days with no morals" bla bla bla. It is real people, young people, having to make real decisions. And if they take the high road it could ultimately lead to the unravelling of their career plans and change the course of their life. Not a trivial matter...



I don't know if I am senior member or not, but the point of student loans are not supposed to be there for the government aka the people pay for people educations who have money but want to leave their money so it can be invested while they get an interest free loan paid for the tax payers. 

My understanding, at least when I had my small loan was that they do take your last few years income and situation and there is an expectation that you are saving for your education if possible. This should discourage those people that work and spend everything. 

In terms of morals not being a trivial matter. I think morals are more important than money, it is foundational to who you are. Lying to make money no matter how you put it just is wrong. Moral are about doing the right thing when it's hard, not when it's convenient. The consequence of honesty is being able to live with yourself and stand by it.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Argonaut said:


> 1. In my *faulted honesty* I disclosed how much I had in stocks...
> 2. they used this as grounds to assume *I'd cash out* and use that.


*1.* No gold stars for having completed a legal document honestly; much better than having lied and possibly gotten caught/penalized later. No gov. system is fair for all, that's just reality.

*2.* The assumption isn't that you 'would' have, but that you should: *'If you cannot sell your assets or use them as collateral due to legal reasons such as divorce or separation, please provide legal documentation of this in your StudentAid BC appeal.'* Perhaps that would not be the expectation, if in doing so, it would mean significant capital losses, but as that's not the case, you most likely are out of luck. 

However, as already mentioned upthread, no harm in appealing the decision, but note that you can't appeal: *'Assets including stocks, shares, recreational or revenue property, Canada savings bonds, registered retirement savings plan, registered education savings plan, mutual funds, etc. unless the assets cannot be liquidated for legal reasons such as pending divorce or probate.'*
https://studentaidbc.ca/apply/appeal#appeal-cats

Often I hear/read that millions in scholarships & other awards, go unclaimed as students don't apply thinking they are based solely on GMAT/GPA scores, but that isn't always the case. I gather you've looked into these already.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/blogs/...arship-dollars-going-unclaimed-193114435.html

Have you considered doing the degree part-time and possibly have it partially financed by your employer?

Enjoy the balance of your summer & good luck!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

a problem is that argo says he starts school in august. That's next month. There's really no time for bursary digging, application approval, etc.

argo this is not going to sound very appealing, but is there a "good til" date on that august acceptance? does it have an extension of time that will give you time to dig deeper? ideally you might want to check out a few other schools as well?

it's ironic that the very project that is such a powerful asset in your applications to graduate finance faculties - namely, your outstanding TFSA history & your ability to communicate about its philosophy & politic - this has turned out to be the very issue that is preventing normal student financial support. 

if you were applying to engineering school & had a successful mechanical or electrical project to submit, they'd be all over you with money! the school would never dream of forcing the student applicant to sell his invention in order to pay for his tuition! yet the cases are somewhat analogous, imho.

toronto.gal's researched quotes certainly do look forbidding, but there has to be a solution. Rules are meant to be broken. Some enlightened business school somewhere has to be willing to let you keep what you've earned while helping you to get ahead with your studies.

it occurs to me that Just a Guy might be willing to mention how he dealt with the same issue? he might have had assets that first caused the school in question to deny a student loan ... but then he was able to persuade them otherwise in the appeal.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

For me, it was a case that my parents earned too much...plus it was long before all the rules changed.

But, as I've learned from dealing with banks since that time, they usually say "no" up front...being persistent has always gotten me a "yes" eventually.

Personally, I think it's a weeding out process to see if you really want it.

Back when I was in school, I applied for a program but got put on the waiting list. A friend of mine was on the waiting list as well, and he'd been on it for three years. I called the registration office at least once a week if not more and got in within a few months, my friend didn't get in that year. Once I told him what I did, he tried it the next year and got in.

I don't take no for an answer.


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm a good writer and could craft a decent appeal letter, would hate for it to be in vain though thanks to the clause T.Gal posted. Indeed the talk of my investments during the interview likely got me the position in the program. Usually they prefer to accept someone older with more relevant work experience.

It's good to talk it out here, I'll definitely look into some untapped money. I have contacts at TD and if they can't get me a good deal I might lean towards cashing out. Starting from scratch with no debt and an MBA ain't too bad.

Apologies for the short responses, I only have mobile right now and it's a pain to type.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

doesn't the school have a student counsellor you could go see? someone to point you towards the bursaries that surely exist & maybe offer other assistance?

re the debt upon graduation - assuming you did get a loan - the idea was to skate for 2 years on the interest-free loan meanwhile accumulating dividend & possibly other income in the TFSA - then use the TFSA to pay off the loan after graduation.

you'd still be debt-free after graduation. But you'd have 2 extra years of use of the TFSA income & returns.

i'm not surprised the TFSA has come up already in discussions that resonated with the faculty. Perhaps as part of the argument mention that one reason you would like to keep it because you are hoping to write at least one paper/case study based on its success.

(see that its?) (it's an its without an apostrophe)

EDIT this might sound strange but do you have a direct ancestor who was in the military? some donors are known to restrict their bursaries to beneficiaries who belong to certain cohorts & being a child or grand-child of a decorated veteran is sometimes such a demographic ...


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My daughter went the route of TD Emerald which is 4% interest per year ,you could combine their student credit line with this option at TD.


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## joncnca (Jul 12, 2009)

Plugging along mentioned this before, the point of student loans is not to allow people with money to avoid using that money and coast on the taxpayers to go to school. Subsidized government loans are for those who don't have the money and don't have parents who "make too much." contrary to what some might think, people who need the loans legitimately need the loans, unless they lied on their application, but that's a whole other issue. Similar to the case of welfare payments, I believe it has been documented that contrary to popular belief, the majority of people legitimately need it and are not trying to scam the system. 

The loans are not interest free. Taxpayers pay the interest while the student is in school. 

If you have the money, you're already ahead because you won't have as much interest to pay when you graduate. Don't moan about having to spend the money you have to invest in an education that will greatly increase your earning potential. Those students who need loans because they don't have the money will have more interest to contend with at graduation. That is the advantage you get because you have the money. Dispense with the first world sense of entitlement to more. 

I commend you for being honest though. Please continue to do so, and continue to advocate for others to do the same for the sake of the betterment of society. 

Try to get loans from other sources first, it's best leave your TFSA alone. But if you can't get private funding or legitimately get public funding, there's nothing to complain about. You saved for a reason, and tuition is a legitimate expense. 

Using the TFSA in no way prevents you from demonstrating to any school how adept you are at investing successfully. Keep your methods of documented, that's good enough. No admissions officer will ask to see your bank statement as proof. 

You seem like a smart guy, you'll be fine. Don't be overly entitled. Try hard to get funding outside of your TFSA. But if you have the money, even if using it is not your quickest way to riches, government loans were not intended for you. 

Good luck. You can do it. ☺


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Your tuition is still heavily subsidized by the Canadian taxpayers. Foreign students in Canada pay a higher tuition. Americans pay even higher tuition etc etc. Who is really dependant on welfare?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Hmm I take back my comments about the morality of this. I think it's been thoroughly debated in the other thread. You of course did the "right" thing here Argonaut, and there are naturally other avenues to persue without doing anything unethical  

Sorry for trying to derail the thread from helpful discussion and advice, which others are providing plentifully. 

I stand by all my tongue lashings in other threads though :biggrin:


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

joncnca said:


> Plugging along mentioned this before, the point of student loans is not to allow people with money to avoid using that money and coast on the taxpayers to go to school. Subsidized government loans are for those who don't have the money and don't have parents who "make too much." contrary to what some might think, people who need the loans legitimately need the loans, unless they lied on their application, but that's a whole other issue. Similar to the case of welfare payments, I believe it has been documented that contrary to popular belief, the majority of people legitimately need it and are not trying to scam the system.


Be careful about being too judgemental about this. In some cases the government looks at situations a little too black and white. For example, one may have a single mother raising three kids alone, where the father earns too much but refuses to help. To the government, the parents "earn too much" when combined, but there may be no way to get the money if one party won't contribute...not sure how the rules have changed, but I know that there is a good reason why the government allows appeals. Of course, you can also get part time jobs, or three, to help pay your way...


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

Argonaut said:


> Hey everybody! I'm going back to school for an MBA starting in August. I applied for gov't student loans through BC Student Aid and received no funding. In my faulted honesty I disclosed how much I had in stocks and they used this as grounds to assume I'd cash out and use that.
> 
> Naturally I feel sick about emptying my TFSA, as it's four years of hard work. It's also always performing above all expected interest rates so it makes sense to keep it. I'll likely check with both the university and the banks to see what they offer, but asking here first for those with knowledge and experience on the matter.
> 
> University loans? Banks? Cash out stocks? Any other way to get that interest free grace period from the gov't? Thanks.


I was in a similar position earlier this year (although ultimately decided it wasn't worth it to go FT), so this information should still be relevant:

- Government student loans are insignificant for MBA programs, even if you did get them. This is mainly because the cost of the program is so high in relation to even the maximum of what the Gov't will give you in aid.
- The school's financial aid department uses a similar, but slightly more generous for accumulated capital, calculation. Essentially, they also take the view that you should sell most of your financial assets in their non-merit based awards.
- Most major banks have generous loan programs, with well-below market interest rates
- In most cases, the lower interest on the bank loans (3.5% vs. >4.5% on Gov't loans) more than compensates for the lack of interest-free grace period and income tax deductibility
- Some schools (UofT for example) actually pay the interest on your private loans while you study - a huge financial benefit

To sum up: your financial assets will likely perform better than the cost of debt, so the best thing you can do is finance your MBA with a cheap bank loan, if the school doesn't give you anything, and keep your investments growing and compounding untouched.

Finally, depending on where you hold your stocks (reg, non-reg), you could do the following. Get an MBA bank line of credit for 3.5% (they will probably give you up to $100k), sell your stocks and use the proceeds to fund your degree, buy back the stocks using the LOC. You can thus deduct the interest on your LOC and reduce it from 3.5% to about 2.5%, while your investments earn 8%+. This strategy would be vastly superior in most cases to six months of interest-free grace, where interest does in fact accrue - at least on Ont Gov't loans.


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

joncnca said:


> Plugging along mentioned this before, the point of student loans is not to allow people with money to avoid using that money and coast on the taxpayers to go to school. Subsidized government loans are for those who don't have the money and don't have parents who "make too much." contrary to what some might think, people who need the loans legitimately need the loans, unless they lied on their application, but that's a whole other issue. Similar to the case of welfare payments, I believe it has been documented that contrary to popular belief, the majority of people legitimately need it and are not trying to scam the system.


What a very progressive thing to say, however there a few problems with your view. The first is the behavioral precedent it sets. This guy works hard and sacrifices current consumption to accumulate savings. All else being equal, another guy doesn't sacrifice and blows all his income and never accumulates savings. You want to punish the first guy and reward the second guy. I think this kind of thinking is ridiculous and explains much of Canada's poor performance in so many areas, social to private.

The claim that you make that "taxpayers pay the interest while in school" is factually correct. However, the taxpayers ultimately receive a greater interest rate (than they would receive otherwise) when these loans go into repayment. Therefore, over the long run, I would argue that taxpayers actually profit from the current loan system (and of course profit socially from higher education) as opposed to the sacrifice you seem to be implying. This does not even factor in the additional "profit" that taxpayers will receive in the form of higher income taxes in perpetuity from individuals with advanced educations.

This example explains why it pays to lie and be lazy over hard-work and honesty in Canada. When I was in school, one semester I had the following choice to make: 1) Receive a bursary for $1000 or 2) work 70 hours as a TA for $1500. After deducting my relatively low tax rate at the time, I could earn $1200 net. Therefore, the choice was between working or doing nothing for just $200, or $2.85 per hour for my 70 hours of work. It is no wonder our productivity is poor (and getting poorer) when this is how you manage/reward behaviors.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

m3s said:


> Your tuition is still heavily subsidized by the Canadian taxpayers. Foreign students in Canada pay a higher tuition. Americans pay even higher tuition etc etc. Who is really dependant on welfare?


I wonder if Ananya Roy is willing to give back her "government subsidies" that she doesn't approve of...my guess is, she doesn't. 

I remember a teachers strike (one or two back) where the teachers were arguing it was all about classroom size and working conditions...the government came back with a double digit raise, I think 13%, the strike was over.

In an interview afterwards, a teacher said, "we didn't ask for the raise...", when the interviewer suggested that she give back the raise, implying it could go to classroom size and working conditions, her response was "Why would I do that?".

I'd also point out that there is a big difference between a tax write off, which only benefits you if you earn significant money, and a handouts hitch encourages you to work less, because if you work more, you lose benefits.

All animals are created equal, some are more equal than others.


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## joncnca (Jul 12, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Be careful about being too judgemental about this. In some cases the government looks at situations a little too black and white. For example, one may have a single mother raising three kids alone, where the father earns too much but refuses to help. To the government, the parents "earn too much" when combined, but there may be no way to get the money if one party won't contribute...not sure how the rules have changed, but I know that there is a good reason why the government allows appeals. Of course, you can also get part time jobs, or three, to help pay your way...


the laws that govern the land are black and white. the government must look at every situation in a black and white manner in order to be fair to everyone. that being said, there are always exceptions to the rule and that is why there exists an appeal process. but there must be a rule in order for there to be exceptions to said rule. a good friend of mine was in that very situation you describe, and it was unfortunate. but that does not change the *intent *of the program and the necessary rules that govern it.

furthermore, nothing about the OP's post leads us to believe that this is his situation. we would be here all day, going in circles, talking about hypothetical situations. it's not productive =)

like i said, i think he should try to go other routes to get funding if possible. but the point of public loans is to allow people who don't have the money, to go to school.



gt_23 said:


> What a very progressive thing to say, however there a few problems with your view. The first is the behavioral precedent it sets. This guy works hard and sacrifices current consumption to accumulate savings. All else being equal, another guy doesn't sacrifice and blows all his income and never accumulates savings. You want to punish the first guy and reward the second guy. I think this kind of thinking is ridiculous and explains much of Canada's poor performance in so many areas, social to private.
> 
> The claim that you make that "taxpayers pay the interest while in school" is factually correct. However, the taxpayers ultimately receive a greater interest rate (than they would receive otherwise) when these loans go into repayment. Therefore, over the long run, I would argue that taxpayers actually profit from the current loan system (and of course profit socially from higher education) as opposed to the sacrifice you seem to be implying. This does not even factor in the additional "profit" that taxpayers will receive in the form of higher income taxes in perpetuity from individuals with advanced educations.
> 
> This example explains why it pays to lie and be lazy over hard-work and honesty in Canada. When I was in school, one semester I had the following choice to make: 1) Receive a bursary for $1000 or 2) work 70 hours as a TA for $1500. After deducting my relatively low tax rate at the time, I could earn $1200 net. Therefore, the choice was between working or doing nothing for just $200, or $2.85 per hour for my 70 hours of work. It is no wonder our productivity is poor (and getting poorer) when this is how you manage/reward behaviors.


respectfully disagree, on some points, not all. society is not perfect, the loans program is not perfect, but that's no excuse not to try and live up to some ideals. i will try my best to teach my kid to do the good, right, most upstanding thing, but i know that we're in an imperfect world.

the guy isn't purely 'sacrificing' current consumption to accumulate savings. there's value in those savings. the first thing that comes to mind is the benefit of not being indebted (as much) when he graduate, because he didn't blow his money on current consumption, and has the money to actually pay for school. this will in fact put him at a much greater advantage when he gets his degree and makes better money. so it's not a sacrifice (which implies there is no benefit), it is a rational decision to delay gratification. thinking that it's a 'sacrifice' illustrates the kind of first-world entitlement we have in wealthy countries like Canada, IMHO. the guy who doesn't save isn't being 'rewarded' as they will be in more debt, so it's a trade-off, not a reward. 

(btw, i'm assuming people are trying to follow the rules in my argument, there are always bad apples that take advantage of the system, but that's no reason for most people to not try and live up to some ideals.)

i'm not sure what your point is about taxpayers getting a benefit and a return on investment for subsidizing student loans. i agree taxpayers will get a return after the fact, as will society in general. that's the whole point of running a student loan program, so that people become more educated and contribute to the betterment of society. i was simply pointing out/clarifying that the loans are not interest-free (as some had suggested in previous posts) because the taxpayers are paying the interest. i was not disputing that taxpayers eventually get a return on their investment. 

this has no bearing on my original point, which is that the public loans are intended for those who do not have the money, not for those who do. i think these are two separate discussions.

finally, about people being lazy and your example of getting a bursary vs working...that is also a separate discussion and does not speak to my original point. in fact, your statement gets into some philosophical territory that none of us probably the the time to debate, as much as we might want to for fun =)

first of all, there are rules for eligibility when applying for bursaries. it's not supposed to be a choice between bursary or working...because if you can work, and you do work, and you have the money, that should reduce your chances of getting a bursary because bursaries are provided to the financially needy (again, assuming you tell the truth on your application; this is a whole other discussion). you must demonstrate your need for the bursary, so i don't think it's appropriate for your to make it sound like it's just a simple choice for people, and that people choose to take free money..that's not how it works.

secondly, i believe that lazy people are just lazy people. poor productivity is symptomatic of a LOT more going on in society these days (consumerism, entitlement, disillusionment, corruption, globalization, corporate greed, etc. like i said, much bigger topic). you gain a lot more from work than just your pay, you gain credibility, experience, employability, much much more. so lazy people, who are liers and cheaters and scam the bursary system, they ARE lazy and immoral people, and in the long run, for the vast majority of them (there will always be exceptions), they will lead lazy, immoral, useless waste-of-meat type lives...whatever, that's their choice, and i challenge you to speak to people around you and see how many don't care about being productive in some manner or another. there's personal satisfaction beyond just the money, that everyone longs for. people don't always know how to do it, but i'm sure everyone deep down wants to be useful.

a good, moral, upstanding citizen will work hard to achieve, to contribute, to succeed, and to be grateful. a hard worker is a hard worker, even if they get help, they are hard working. in a nut shell, you're either a lazy person, or you're a not. by the time you need to think about student loans, this part of your personality has already been established by your upbringing, this won't change it.

the OP seems like he's hard working and somewhat prudent. i'm not saying he's wrong for wanting to hold onto his TFSA, i have said many times he should try to keep it and find funding elsewhere. but if he must use his own money, that's what it's there for, that's not what the public student loans are intended for. (yes i know i ended on a preposition)


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Anyone who is saying I have a sense of entitlement and should be happy to be subsidized by the taxpayer should check yourself because it holds up to zero logic. It makes no sense for the gubmint not to lend me money; they are virtually guaranteed repayment in two years and on top of that will have a more qualified citizen. Meanwhile I know plenty of people whom this program seems to be designed for: they got their student loan money and years after graduation or dropout, surprise, they haven't the means or the desire to pay it back. Who here is the taxpayer burden?

If I could wave my hand and get a $100k MBA LOC at 3.5% I certainly would, but it's not that easy. Initial talks with my bank guy aren't promising, full time student with no income does not do well in their calcs.

EDIT: It appears there are some professional lines of credit that look promising. Talking to someone at the bank is only helpful if they have done it before; I'm not in a place with lots of graduate students.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Argo, thinking outside the box here, have you considered starting a crowdfunding initiative? If you can come up with some innovative ideas I suggest talking to the business school about them. They might see the added value in you as a potential entrepreneur and might be able to put you in touch with helpful contacts. 

By the way I have an MBA and from my experience, a progressive school may be receptive to helping you find a way, particularly if they really, really want you as a student.


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## cheech10 (Dec 31, 2010)

I applaud you for examining every avenue to finance your education at the lowest cost to yourself. But the fact of the matter is that you do not qualify for a student loan. You may disagree, but this is fully in keeping with the intent of student loan programs: to subsidize education costs for those that cannot afford it. The likelihood of loan repayment does not figure into the government's decision to advance a loan to a student, nor should it because that would not be in keeping with the intent of the program. 

You have assets, so you have 2 options: sell your assets and use the funds to pay for your education, which incurs an opportunity cost of lost investment income, or get a loan to pay tuition, which incurs an interest expense. You can decide which is more beneficial for yourself.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Argonaut said:


> If I could wave my hand and get a $100k MBA LOC at 3.5% I certainly would, but it's not that easy. Initial talks with my bank guy aren't promising, full time student with no income does not do well in their calcs.


As a stock holder of such banks, I certainly hope this is how it works. The student debt in NA is outrageous and many students had no job market foreseen to pay it back in the first place. Jobs that require an MBA usually do require several years relevant experience though. How do you jump into a senior position without the corresponding experience?

I don't think you have a sense of entitlement, I think you are being screwed by a flawed system. The price of the student loan interest is peanuts compared to what is subsidized as a whole. What we have are Universities that compete for the most manicured gardens and highest tuitions to validate their status. Then they hassle their alumni for donations the rest of their lives.


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

You're right, my university has some damn fine gardens and they call at least twice a year for donations. I don't answer the phone.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

argo no one is fretting the word "entitled" against you.

you were true blue. You applied & you stated the truth. Your record is clean as a whistle. Can't do better than that.

unfortunately in the first round the chips aren't falling quite right yet. But it'll be possible to get em to go your way in the end, i do believe. There's excellent advice from Just a Guy upthread. Be persistent, he says.

i can't agree with cheech that things are so black & white. It's too soon to tell exactly, but the outlook i'd have is that things are exceptionally gray, it's going to be about a little give here & a little take there.

as m3s points out, every single canadian student, whether on a loan or not, is taxpayer-subsidized.

what about your appeal, argo. Perhaps the arguments that 1) your successful TFSA is actually the key or nodal reason you were accepted into the program at such a young age; & 2) you are hoping to use the TFSA in case study or term paper work, so should be allowed to keep it a little while longer ... perhaps these arguments have merit?

it's an ironic situation when the very financial accomplishment that so impressed your faculty's admissions team is the same accomplishment that the rules are insisting you must sell!

put another way, did Harvard College stop mark zuckerberg's student loans when he was an undergraduate because they suddenly took it into their heads that he ought to be living off his thriving new Facebook thingy? i don't think so ...

btw i imagine you will have to sacrifice some of the TFSA. If i were your MBA university administration, i would insist upon that. The question is when, how much, what other resources can be found to help support you.

i also imagine that the solution here is going to be woven together from many disparate small strands. There won't be any magic fairy godmother. Although some of us have been trying ...


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

Argonaut said:


> Anyone who is saying I have a sense of entitlement and should be happy to be subsidized by the taxpayer should check yourself because it holds up to zero logic. It makes no sense for the gubmint not to lend me money; they are virtually guaranteed repayment in two years and on top of that will have a more qualified citizen. Meanwhile I know plenty of people whom this program seems to be designed for: they got their student loan money and years after graduation or dropout, surprise, they haven't the means or the desire to pay it back. Who here is the taxpayer burden?
> 
> If I could wave my hand and get a $100k MBA LOC at 3.5% I certainly would, but it's not that easy. Initial talks with my bank guy aren't promising, full time student with no income does not do well in their calcs.
> 
> EDIT: It appears there are some professional lines of credit that look promising. Talking to someone at the bank is only helpful if they have done it before; I'm not in a place with lots of graduate students.


I found that each bank had different rules. TD for example wanted me to get my parents to co-sign and they would do up to $100k. I thought this was a ridiculous thing to do to my parents at 27 and probably wouldn't have done it even as a last resort. However, BMO had no problem giving me $80k unsecured with no co-signers. I even had about $10k left in undergrad loans. I would advise checking out all the banks and taking the best deal...they are all pretty hungry for the business (perhaps because these loans can't ever be discharged in bankruptcy).


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

m3s said:


> As a stock holder of such banks, I certainly hope this is how it works. The student debt in NA is outrageous and many students had no job market foreseen to pay it back in the first place. Jobs that require an MBA usually do require several years relevant experience though. How do you jump into a senior position without the corresponding experience?
> 
> I don't think you have a sense of entitlement, I think you are being screwed by a flawed system. The price of the student loan interest is peanuts compared to what is subsidized as a whole. What we have are Universities that compete for the most manicured gardens and highest tuitions to validate their status. Then they hassle their alumni for donations the rest of their lives.


It is in fact how it works and as a shareholder of such banks, you should be happy. Having the student loan claim on a young person effectively makes them your slave for the rest of their life, since no matter how bad their economic circumstances get, they can never shake their student loan and must pay the bank (you) forever in that case.

I had no problem getting $80k @ 3.5% unsecured and un-cosigned and neither did the other 100 of the class no matter their background, undergrad degree, previous earnings, etc. Even if students don't get good jobs they still have to pay you back, and the risk is quite low to the bank. Only 20% of the class a year ahead of me had jobs at the time of graduation.


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

I only have banking relationships with TD and RBC, and from what I've heard from my TD contacts and here they seem to be a no-go. Anybody have student loan experience with RBC? I feel weird just walking into a BMO with no previous relationship and asking for tens of thousands. I also want to minimize multiple credit checks if I can.


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

Argonaut said:


> I only have banking relationships with TD and RBC, and from what I've heard from my TD contacts and here they seem to be a no-go. Anybody have student loan experience with RBC? I feel weird just walking into a BMO with no previous relationship and asking for tens of thousands. I also want to minimize multiple credit checks if I can.


I'm not sure why that matters. I have been with TD all my life too and didn't have a relationship with BMO either. The business school had local contacts at each of the Big 5 banks in my offer letter and I just called around to get the details from each of them. I never even met the lady at BMO as I live about 3 hours away, but she took my application and all the paperwork was handled via scans and email. It took about 2 weeks in total from the time I chose BMO until it was set-up (mostly due to her "vacation days"). She sets up about 20 of these every year for the MBA program and I'm sure the other banks do as well, so it seemed quite routine.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

gt_23 said:


> I'm not sure why that matters. I have been with TD all my life too and didn't have a relationship with BMO either ... I never even met the lady at BMO as I live about 3 hours away, but she took my application and all the paperwork was handled via scans and email. It took about 2 weeks in total from the time I chose BMO until it was set-up (mostly due to her "vacation days"). She sets up about 20 of these every year for the MBA program



there u go argo, find this lady! sounds like she'll talk to strangers if their paper application is OK


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

Regarding this quote;
"If I could wave my hand and get a $100k MBA LOC at 3.5% I certainly would."

Let me think, $5,000 at 3.5%. Risky, but a direct investment in someone's education....hmmm.
20 people at $5,000 each gives you the $100,000.
You may be onto something here Argonaut.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

I am surprised to hear of the difficulties as well. Some lenders have separate adjudication for particular graduate programs such as law, medicine, and MBA, and clearly they understand that someone is not working if they are going to a 2-5 year graduate program. For example:

https://www.cibc.com/ca/loans/prof-edg-st-pers-ln-credit.html
http://www.tdcanadatrust.com/products-services/banking/student-life/stline.jsp#graduate

RBC also notes that for its PLC for students with a professional designation, that consignors are typically not required. 

I would just apply (as I will be doing shortly for a grad program too). Most credit applications are centrally adjudicated anyway, with the only 'power' the branches having being to make notes and help 'position' an application, so it should not matter if you are in a major centre or in rural nowhere. Branch staff just may not be up to speed on these products unless there is demand in their area.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

here you go Argo. Emily Rose Eastop is crowdfunding $50,000 to fund her postgraduate degree in anthropology at Oxford university.

notice that she's planning to teach back what she learns to her funders. You could teach back, too. Some might think it would be personal financial advice, but me i don't think it would be any different from what you used to post in cmf. 

the way i see it, what works in dear, daft, potty auld britannia ought to sparkle in BC ...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...dfunding-project-the-posh-brat-hits-back.html


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## Namael (Jul 14, 2013)

I just finished professional school, but I always found National Bank to have more leeway with student loans and better rates compared to the big 5. Give them a try if you have a branch in your area.


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

Ended up getting the necessary money from RBC. Went exactly as expected, she was skeptical at first but after we went through the steps and called supreme allied headquarters it was a no brainer. In banking you don't know how to do things until you've done them, as I know. Not a huge graduate town, this.

Thanks for all the posts. I'll look into alternative funding and some other options here as well, but it's nice to have the biggest concern gone. I can keep my stocks and the interest rate ain't bad, I call that a win.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

that was fast & perfect!

it's the first of august & school starts for u this month ... bon voyage as you sail off on this next exciting leg of life's voyage


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## martinv (Apr 30, 2009)

Terrific that it all worked out! Keep us updated on your progress.
I hear BNN is interested in having you as a regular guest!:encouragement:


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