# Sienna Senior Living



## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

Something to think about if you invest in this stock:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/woman-confined-bedbugs-sienna-senior-living-1.5342990


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think a number of those stocks in this space are scum.


> The lawsuit named Extendicare, which runs 96 homes across the country; Sienna, which operates 83; and Revera, which runs 76.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Had a bit of Extendicare and sold it after reading this post and the link attached.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

So now the shareholders bail, the company stock plunges, the board demands that costs be cut, and the poor old bastards get treated even worse.

Wonderful.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Sucks, doesn't it...... Something, like proper regulatory oversight, has to be done with these predators though.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Userkare said:


> ..........................the poor old bastards get treated even worse.


I've always felt that when I get into my 80s and beyond, the likelihood continually increases that I'll need the services offered by a retirement residence or a long-term care facility. I see the average costs are in the $4000 a month range, but I hope to afford what might be considered higher end in the $8000-$10000 range. I would like to avoid the situation that I read about all too often as evidenced in the article that newfoundlander61 provided above. That's just creepy.

I own a bungalow, so hopefully that gets me further down the road by hiring people to take care of the yard, etc, but eventually I suspect everyone must have to accept leaving their home and moving to long-term care.

I think it's smart and good planning to have capital for this eventual situation. This notion that we discuss quite often on CMF about using up all your capital by age 95-110, and people joking that you'll be the richest guy in the graveyard never sways me from keeping a pretty large nest egg to take care of a more dignified demise than living with bed bugs. I'm fine with being the richest guy in the graveyard if it goes the other way, but I want lots of funds to pay people to do a good job if it doesn't.

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

As would most of us. But so many cannot afford to set aside enough without living in near poverty during the best of their retirement years, e.g. someone retiring with $300k and no DB pension. For them, it will always be a balancing act.

Added: The actual savings for Canadians is not so bad. $674k already saved by those 50 and over and still working. From http://www.rbc.com/newsroom/news/2019/20190718-retirement-myths.html


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> ..... someone retiring with $300k and no DB pension. For them, it will always be a balancing act.


Yeah, that would be tough for sure. I would think they would need to work a bit longer if possible. Yikes...

Considering $8000 a month for a decent quality retirement residence or a long-term care facility, would be around $100K a year, so 10 years would require a million dollars set aside for that eventuality. That seems smart if possible. This desire to end up with zero at some advanced age seems poor management to me. I would set zero at one million dollars.

A lot of people have capital in their homes, so they might use that as the source of that capital requirement.

ltr


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Can you ever have enough money? Sometimes peoples' savings can be wiped out paying medical expenses not covered by prov. health plan. 

I think we've saved enough to live comfortably in our own home; and I would consider downsizing to a smaller home, if needed. I would rather jump off a bridge than be a burden for my surviving spouse, and draining our savings for medical treatments to squeeze just a few more months of life.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Userkare said:


> Can you ever have enough money? Sometimes peoples' savings can be wiped out paying medical expenses not covered by prov. health plan.
> 
> I think we've saved enough to live comfortably in our own home; and I would consider downsizing to a smaller home, if needed. I would rather jump off a bridge than be a burden for my surviving spouse, and draining our savings for medical treatments to squeeze just a few more months of life.


Userkare, for sure no one wants to be a burden to anyone in their family, so the solution is to attempt to have at least a million set aside for the horror show that's coming eventually. That cash, holds off a lot of the problems that usually occur in our country to seniors.

I think in Canada we're somewhat protected from the situation where a wipe out can occur from a medical problem. We're lucky in that regard. Sure, there are costs, but when you need a $150K heart surgery, it's free.

I feel most of the problems arise from the costs of retirement residences or long-term care facilities that are an upgrade to the basic offerings. The basic system seems horrible to me. I am willing to pay for much better.

I think people should be careful with those fancy travel plans they have when they retire and think about having enough to cover their expenses at advanced ages.

ltr


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## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

As a Health Care Provider, I can tell you that nursing homes are full spectrum. I see the low end - and the high end. Its all dollars !

The low end is terrible and it motivates me to save another dollar so that when I am old I'm not left in a bed to rot.

I would say that most are right down the middle - not great but not bad.

Just remember once kids are gone to look at a bungalo or a condo ASAP.... Dont try to prove your young by staying in a 3 story 3,500 sq ft house that you dont take care of.... stairs are BAD for old people.... 

Once your 60, simple living is smart living. Downsizing when your healthy is the way to go. All too often I see old people in a big house and they know they dont need it but have no idea where to start for the downsize. They are stuck, stay ahead of the curve and just downsize.... it'll free up cash too. If the Real Estate market is strong and your considering selling for a smaller house it might not be a bad idea.


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## kelaa (Apr 5, 2016)

When I was listening to the CBC radio broadcast, I was hoping it wasn't Chartwell. "...private provider, one of the largest in Canada..." uh oh... "... Sienna Senior Living..." relief! But the stock didn't actually move much.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

What does "senior living" mean exactly ?

There are retirement homes and nursing homes. 

Retirement homes are similar to fancy hotels. Residents are considered "guests" and have access to many amenities. They typically eat in a dining room with menus and waiters.

The residents must be self sufficient to a point and can pay extra for personal care. When people can't manage for themselves anymore they have to move to a nursing home.

My wife works p/t in an upscale retirement home. They charge about $3500 to $5000 a month depending on the size of the suite. Dining, entertainment, trips etc are all included in the monthly fee. The food is prepared in a kitchen with a chef in charge. These are very nice buildings to live in. People with money live in these.

Nursing homes are different. There are no menu choices and the buildings are often not as nice. The cost is less than for retirement homes.........$2000 to $3000 a month.

Residents are usually in a declining state of health when moving into nursing homes. Many are bedridden and require assistance from personal workers.

In Ontario, all nursing homes are subject to inspection. One wonders why these problems continue to crop up in public. Is the government not fulfilling their mandate to inspect these homes ? Are nursing homes required to hire enough personal support workers ? Where is the government oversight ?

From what I have seen the best nursing homes are the publicly owned buildings of municipalities in cities and small towns. 

The words private and health care often don't go well together. Keep the word "profit" out of healthcare.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is only one word but I think it reflects how private corporations view the people living in their facilities.

_"Our goal is to provide all *tenants* with the best possible quality service and overall retirement living experience through the warmth of human connection," wrote a spokesperson._

People living there should be considered "residents" or "guests" and treated as such.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Understaffing is what allowed nurse Elizabeth Wettlaufer in Ontario to move from nursing home to nursing home killing 8 elderly patients.

She was fired numerous times for misconduct but was hired by nursing homes because they couldn't find anyone else to work for them.

Imagine a nurse in charge of 60 elderly people at night, when one of them needs critical care. They may need to be prepared to be taken by ambulance to the hospital.

While the nurse is busy with the one patient, the other 59 aren't getting any help if needed. It is a ridiculous situation.

I know a young lady who worked at a nursing home in a locked down section for criminally insane people. Everyday she was spit on, punched, kicked, and abused.

She did it for 5 years before having a total mental breakdown. She collected sick pay for a few weeks and then had to go on welfare benefits.

When the government announces a freeze or reduction in health care costs........it isn't as if they are starting from a position of an overabundance of care.

The spending cuts make bad situations even worse.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

hfp75 said:


> As a Health Care Provider, I can tell you that nursing homes are full spectrum. I see the low end - and the high end. Its all dollars !
> 
> The low end is terrible and it motivates me to save another dollar so that when I am old I'm not left in a bed to rot.
> 
> ...


Interesting and thought provocative comments which I will share with my spouse. We fit into the above category with our ages being 73 and 74 but are both very active with playing racquet sports, skiing, walking, gardening, etc. Our house is about 2000 sq ft and a walkout rancher with the same space on the lower level. We are also on .70 acre sloping lot which is fully landscaped with lawn, hedges, trees, veggie gardens, and flower gardens. Yes, its lots of work both inside and out but we love the house and the exercise and resultant beauty the yard work gives us.We hire someone to prune the 20 ft hedges every year and I have a riding mower. For the most part we live on the main level. The large house is great whenever our children and grandchildren come for a visit and stay over. We occasionally bring up the subject of downsizing but are not ready for it. Mind you, I do dread the thought due to 2 vehicles, travel trailer, ATV, workshop, and the amount of stuff in our kitchen. Also lots of pictures on the wall. Don't need the cash and not too interested intraveling too much. Thought provoking and hope I am not hijacking this thread.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

"Is the government not fulfilling their mandate to inspect these homes ?" Inspections by the government are pre-announced in advance before they arrive, hence the lack of reporting by the time they arrive due to the notice given.


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## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

frase said:


> Interesting and thought provocative comments which I will share with my spouse. We fit into the above category with our ages being 73 and 74 but are both very active with playing racquet sports, skiing, walking, gardening, etc. Our house is about 2000 sq ft and a walkout rancher with the same space on the lower level. We are also on .70 acre sloping lot which is fully landscaped with lawn, hedges, trees, veggie gardens, and flower gardens. Yes, its lots of work both inside and out but we love the house and the exercise and resultant beauty the yard work gives us.We hire someone to prune the 20 ft hedges every year and I have a riding mower. For the most part we live on the main level. The large house is great whenever our children and grandchildren come for a visit and stay over. We occasionally bring up the subject of downsizing but are not ready for it. Mind you, I do dread the thought due to 2 vehicles, travel trailer, ATV, workshop, and the amount of stuff in our kitchen. Also lots of pictures on the wall. Don't need the cash and not too interested intraveling too much. Thought provoking and hope I am not hijacking this thread.


If your quality of life is good then just be mindful of the coming change. You might not want to sell everything and live in a match box... but just remember that you are not in the acquisition time of life and should consider selling off some stuff or giving it to kids/family..... If your not convinced - that is totally fine. When either of you have a change in your health status - make changes. You will be happy you did 5-10 years later. When your 80+ its hard to move and sell stuff off. 

Over 60/65/70/ect if you have a fall and break a leg/arm it just heals so slow. If its a hip/leg then you will probably never be the same and you will wish you had moved to simpler living sooner.

Just watch your quality of life and personal capacities and be honest with yourselves.

A fall down stairs is a game changer !!

I dont know if its possible to put a gate at the top of the stairs.... but it might be something to consider.... one off balance moment could be bad, also, have 2 rails, one on either side of the stairs and make a conscious effort to remember to have at least one hand on a rail ! This is SMART for everyone, I tell this to my 1/3/5 yr olds too.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It is our intention to move from our 3400 sq ft walkout rancher in 3-5 years when circa 75 years of age. We seldom go down to the lower level, perhaps only every few days to access backyard, etc. Housecleaning is contracted out as is window washing. Yard is relatively small, with most of back yard taken up by the pool for which we contract out O&M. For now, taking care of the yard is not overly burdensome but may be contracted out any year now.

We see 2 more moves: firstly, if we can find something suitable, to a strata bungalow of some kind in the order of 1200-1500 sq ft, and then to a luxury retirement home thereafter. The issue will be our reluctance to give up our expansive lake view. C'est la vie.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

hfp75 said:


> If your quality of life is good then just be mindful of the coming change. You might not want to sell everything and live in a match box... but just remember that you are not in the acquisition time of life and should consider selling off some stuff or giving it to kids/family..... If your not convinced - that is totally fine. When either of you have a change in your health status - make changes. You will be happy you did 5-10 years later. When your 80+ its hard to move and sell stuff off.


Yeah, hfp75 offers good advice. I was trying to come up with a good response, but hp did justice to your post.

I agree with hp, if you have a good thing going, and you feel confident in your health, it seems dumb to dial it down to a match box, even though you know this wonderful life can't go on forever.

The question is how long can it go on, and in the event of a problem, will you be capable at that time to dial it down, because in your 80's it's tough to even know what day it is......

I think for those in their mid to late 70's, that have the big house situation going on, and the entire family visits with the wonderful grandchildren, etc, they should have a fairly large cash store available to be able to simply pay people to help them downsize when the time presents itself. 

I see it as a herculean task to down-size at age 80 and above from a monster house that's full to the brim with a lifetime of stuff. That's why everyone recommends it be done much earlier, but the fact is, you can get people to do anything for money, so having cash to pay people to haul away your stuff and take care of this downsizing seems smart.

Myself, I've already downsized into a nice bungalow in a fairly nice neighborhood quite a few years ago. All the family stuff occurs at the number one son's too large house in another upscale neighborhood. Even with my small bungalow size, I can see my yard and maintenance work overwhelming me eventually. This is where I plan to pay people to do that stuff for me. 

Eventually, I guess I can only hope that I would fall down my basement stairs and enjoy a demise that would be so much better than the indignity of having people change my diaper in a care facility, as that doesn't sound like an ending anyone would enjoy.

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The trouble is most falls dont kill you. They merely incapacitate and cause loss of functional mobility. Seen it too many times with elderly relatives, etc.

Best to be in a place with no stairs to begin with.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

Ontario and B.C. long-term care operator to review elder abuse at facilities


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> As would most of us. But so many cannot afford to set aside enough without living in near poverty during the best of their retirement years, e.g. someone retiring with $300k and no DB pension. For them, it will always be a balancing act.
> 
> Added: The actual savings for Canadians is not so bad. $674k already saved by those 50 and over and still working. From Not ready for primetime? Many Canadian Boomers worry about a retirement savings shortfall: RBC Poll


I find that number hard to believe. It’s only including Canadian who already have $100k...but how many people don’t already have $100k?

the data is misleading and based on the bank‘s wealth management division which focuses on mass-affluent clients with $100k or more.

I’d rather See the median savings amount for all Canadians by age group.


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