# Minimizing ATM withdrawal fees which travelling abroad



## chilly (Apr 3, 2009)

Hi all,

I'm planning to travel for an extended time abroad starting next fall, and am hoping you can help me to figure out my best options to minimize the fees for ATM withdrawals while travelling.

I'm not kidding myself: I'm not assuming that I'll find an equivalent to the Charles Schwab chequing account for US residents, but what good options do I have at my disposal as a Canadian resident?

Thanks!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Scotiabank is part of a Global ATM alliance and there is a lengthy list of partner banks in other countries who do not charge any ATM usage fees. You only end up paying the foreign exchange spread at an ATM

For example in the US, use Bank of America ATMs and there is no ATM fee on either side. Just a 2.5% forex fee baked into the exchange rate.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Note that if you get an account with Tangerine, you have access to Scotiabank's Global ATM alliance.

Note that you do still have to pay a network fee (typically $2.00 per ATM transaction). But you don't have an ATM fee.

I used my Tangerine card in France last year at Paribas, which is France's participating bank in the Global ATM alliance and paid $2 in network fees for every transaction. But that's better than paying $2 in network fees plus another $2 or $3 in ATM fees.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

$2 IS REALLY GOOD! I pay $3 in Mexico and $5 in Europe in Plus charges with TD.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

TD infinity (All Inclusive) does not charge you anything just got back from a couple trips , one to Vegas and One to Caribbean and used my card a few times .


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

marina628 said:


> TD infinity (All Inclusive) does not charge you anything just got back from a couple trips , one to Vegas and One to Caribbean and used my card a few times .


Sure, but you have to pay $360/year for that account unless you want to tie up $5,000 as a minimum balance to avoid the fee. And they charge a hefty forex fee; the fine print on the TD All Inclusive account website says:

TD network fees waived, however, other financial institutions may charge fees for use of their ATMs. As well, certain states permit surcharging of international customers at independent ATMs. Other financial institution and surcharge fees will display electronically for the customer to accept before completing the transaction.

For foreign currency withdrawals performed at non TD ATMs outside of Canada, the exchange rate includes an amount equal to 2.5% of the converted amount.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

brad said:


> Sure, but you have to pay $360/year for that account unless you want to tie up $5,000 as a minimum balance to avoid the fee. And they charge a hefty forex fee; the fine print on the TD All Inclusive account website says:
> 
> TD network fees waived, however, other financial institutions may charge fees for use of their ATMs. As well, certain states permit surcharging of international customers at independent ATMs. Other financial institution and surcharge fees will display electronically for the customer to accept before completing the transaction.
> 
> For foreign currency withdrawals performed at non TD ATMs outside of Canada, the exchange rate includes an amount equal to 2.5% of the converted amount.


At current interest rates, "tying up" $5000 is an after-tax opportunity cost in something roughly like the $60 range. That's about the worth of the free safe-deposit box All-Inclusive gives you (if you need it), or part of the waived credit card fees, etc. It all depends on what banking services you are trying to put together, but certainly All-Inclusive with the minimum balance can be cheap at the price for many people.

I think some of the warnings about additional surcharges on some non-Canadian ATMs would apply to all usages - these are charged by the machine's bank directly and would be outside TD's control. They'd be similar to off-brand machines that put an additional charge into the transaction. You'd want to find out how common these are at bank machines in your destinations of interest - if common then something like the Global ATM Alliance that Scotia/Tangerine is tied into might be useful.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

NorthernRaven said:


> At current interest rates, "tying up" $5000 is an after-tax opportunity cost in something roughly like the $60 range. That's about the worth of the free safe-deposit box All-Inclusive gives you (if you need it), or part of the waived credit card fees, etc. It all depends on what banking services you are trying to put together, but certainly All-Inclusive with the minimum balance can be cheap at the price for many people.


I suppose, but I think too often people get suckered into plans like this because of the perceived value: "look at all the benefits I'm getting," even if they don't actually need or use them (I'm not talking about marina628 here, who almost certainly does use those benefits, but "people" in general). If you are a frequent traveler and would benefit from annual fees waived on one of those premium credit cards, if you are a frequent border crosser and would benefit from a reduced rate on the Borderless plan, and if you need a safety deposit box, I can see how a plan like this could be useful. But sometimes we fool ourselves into thinking we need or would benefit from those features, and that the benefit outweighs the cost.

As for tying up $5,000, I wasn't really thinking of the opportunity cost in terms of lost interest or potential investment gains (although you have to add up those costs over the 20 years or more that you might stay on this plan), but rather the fact that this money just has to sit there, you can't use it for anything until you decide to cancel your plan. Otherwise the moment your balance drops even one cent below $5,000 you start paying $30/month.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

And then there are the Chase.ca credit cards (Amazon, Marriott). They charge 1% (minimum $5) per withdrawal, but you get the Visa exchange rate, whereas the banks charge 2.5% fee on the exchange rate. I overpay my account before going so that I don't pay interest.

I think I end up better off than under the Scotiabank ATM Alliance offering.

The Amazon card I have seems to be a bit fussy, though, so be sure to advise them that you are travelling, and carry a back-up card.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

brad said:


> I suppose, but I think too often people get suckered into plans like this because of the perceived value: "look at all the benefits I'm getting," even if they don't actually need or use them (I'm not talking about marina628 here, who almost certainly does use those benefits, but "people" in general). If you are a frequent traveler and would benefit from annual fees waived on one of those premium credit cards, if you are a frequent border crosser and would benefit from a reduced rate on the Borderless plan, and if you need a safety deposit box, I can see how a plan like this could be useful. But sometimes we fool ourselves into thinking we need or would benefit from those features, and that the benefit outweighs the cost.
> 
> As for tying up $5,000, I wasn't really thinking of the opportunity cost in terms of lost interest or potential investment gains (although you have to add up those costs over the 20 years or more that you might stay on this plan), but rather the fact that this money just has to sit there, you can't use it for anything until you decide to cancel your plan. Otherwise the moment your balance drops even one cent below $5,000 you start paying $30/month.


"Just has to sit there, you can't use if for anything" is the very definition of an opportunity cost. Consider it part of a true emergency fund (not just a "I'm going to dip into this every few months" fund). The most likely place for this sort of cash would be a HISA - assume 2% and 40% marginal tax rate just for an example, and you are only out $60/year. That's what TD's safe-deposit box costs, so All-Inclusive has paid for itself right there. The premium CC fee waivers are much more that that, and easily make that dead $5000 worthwhile. There's really nothing to fool oneself about - either you need a box, or would be willing to pay for a similar CC, etc. If you don't need either, then things like free chequing/transactions/ATM fees and the rest of the package would need a closer look, and might or might not be worth it - everyone will have different value for them.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Davis said:


> And then there are the Chase.ca credit cards (Amazon, Marriott). They charge 1% (minimum $5) per withdrawal, but you get the Visa exchange rate, whereas the banks charge 2.5% fee on the exchange rate. I overpay my account before going so that I don't pay interest.
> 
> I think I end up better off than under the Scotiabank ATM Alliance offering.


Remember, 1% only works out better at withdrawals of $500 or more. For withdrawals under $250, you are actually paying more then the 2.5% banks normally add. $5 on a $100 withdrawal is 5%, and on $250 is 2.5%. For vacationers getting a few smallish lumps of spending cash, this might not be optimal, if you are worried about these sorts of small fees.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

NorthernRaven said:


> "Just has to sit there, you can't use if for anything" is the very definition of an opportunity cost. Consider it part of a true emergency fund (not just a "I'm going to dip into this every few months" fund). The most likely place for this sort of cash would be a HISA - assume 2% and 40% marginal tax rate just for an example, and you are only out $60/year. That's what TD's safe-deposit box costs, so All-Inclusive has paid for itself right there. The premium CC fee waivers are much more that that, and easily make that dead $5000 worthwhile. There's really nothing to fool oneself about - either you need a box, or would be willing to pay for a similar CC, etc. If you don't need either, then things like free chequing/transactions/ATM fees and the rest of the package would need a closer look, and might or might not be worth it - everyone will have different value for them.


Yes, I agree that everyone would have a different value for these benefits. What I see sometimes, though, is people getting these premium accounts just because they are available and they think they're getting the best benefits, when in fact they might not need or use those benefits. I explored some of these accounts myself and decided that I didn't need any of those things (I've never had a safety deposit box and have no use for one, don't travel often so wouldn't benefit from a premium credit card--I have a no-fee cash-back rewards card and donate the rebates to charity--and I use a different strategy for cross-border banking. I have unlimited free chequing/ATM with Tangerine. So the benefits aren't worth it to me -- but that's just me. I just think people need to evaluate their needs carefully before going for one of those premium accounts; sometimes having the account makes people change their lifestyle so they can take advantage of the benefits, which is like the tail wagging the dog.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

NorthernRaven said:


> Remember, 1% only works out better at withdrawals of $500 or more. For withdrawals under $250, you are actually paying more then the 2.5% banks normally add. $5 on a $100 withdrawal is 5%, and on $250 is 2.5%. For vacationers getting a few smallish lumps of spending cash, this might not be optimal, if you are worried about these sorts of small fees.


That is fair, but keep in mind that banks will usually have a transaction fee (e.g., the $2 for Tangerine) on top of the 2.5%.

I guess you have to look at your typical withdrawal and the calculate the foreign exchange fees and the ATM fees together. I have also seen comments that the Visa exchange rate may not be as good as the bank's exchange rate, although it is better than the bank's exchange rate + 2.5%. But still, it makes it hard to know exactly what the best deal is. Argh.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Davis said:


> That is fair, but keep in mind that banks will usually have a transaction fee (e.g., the $2 for Tangerine) on top of the 2.5%.


The $2 fee for Tangerine is a network fee: it's charged by the network (if you look at the back of your debit card you'll see logos like Cirrus or Plus -- that's the network that's levying the charge.


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## chilly (Apr 3, 2009)

Great feedback folks, I really appreciate it.

From my point of view, I haven't made up my mind yet, but I am slightly intrigued by the TD All-Inclusive. Certainly the high fees make me cringe, but at the same time I can see the benefits for my situation:
- Since we're planning on travelling for 8 months or so, I foresee myself making quite a few ATM withdrawals, so do want to minimize those fees as much as possible
- We use a safety deposit box now at another bank, and will continue to do so
- It is true that I could use my current emergency fund (currently stored in a HISA) and keep it in the TD account as a way to waive the monthly fees
- We're also looking at getting a travel credit card and one of the top contenders was one of the TD Aeroplan ones

Is there a downfall to potentially applying for this account and then cancelling it upon our return from our trip?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

If you're using a safety deposit box the All-Inclusive basically pays for itself (as long as you use theirs and not the one at the other bank, LOL). 

There's no downfall, you can switch your account type (or close an account) whenever you like. If you do use their safety deposit box then you might have to pay pro-rated charges on that, not sure.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We have been using the Chase card for several years and we are very happy with it. We use it like a bank when travelling. We load up a cash balance and then do cash advances. 

The benefit to us is that we do not get charged the 2.5 hidden fee that most banks charge on foreign ATM FX transactions. We do pay 1 percent on the transaction-a minimum of fee of $5.

It depends on how often you take money. We usually withdraw about $700 from an ATM. CIBC would charge us $5. for the ATM and 2.5 percent add on FX fee. That would be a total of $22.50, ignoring local charges for this one withdrawal. The Chase fees would be $7. on the withdrawal and $0 on the FX admin fees.

When we use the Chase card as a credit card we do not pay any extra FX fees. Our CIBC Visa adds a 2.5 percent fee on every foreign transaction. It adds up. I took a quick tape from our Chase statement after spending five/six weeks in Greece. We saved about $110. in bank fees that we would otherwise pay to CIBC. Last year we travelled five months out of twelve. We saved about $600. by using the Chase card. 

The value of the card will depend on how much you use it and which variant you select. The Amazon Chase card is free, the Marriott Chase card has a fee attached to it. Same card, just different add on freebes.


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## chilly (Apr 3, 2009)

fraser said:


> We have been using the Chase card for several years and we are very happy with it. We use it like a bank when travelling. We load up a cash balance and then do cash advances.
> 
> The benefit to us is that we do not get charged the 2.5 hidden fee that most banks charge on foreign ATM FX transactions. We do pay 1 percent on the transaction-a minimum of fee of $5.
> 
> ...


Thanks! So it sounds like the Chase is your go-to credit card during travel times, right? And you effectively use it as a debit card in terms of cash withdrawals.

Any issues with withdrawing that amount of cash every time while travelling? (not sure if I'm super comfortable carrying around a hunk of bills all over...)


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We only use our Chase cards for foreign transactions. 

Normally when we travel I have a neck strap to hold my credit cards etc. This year, we started our trip to Greece with 1500E that we had purchased prior to leaving. We were not sure about the banking situation and as it turned out the rate was going up so it was advantageous for us to do this. Plus, we often pay for hotels in cash...many of the family hotels that we stay in either request cash or provide a discount for cash when asked. Especially in places like Italy and Croatia.

So, no issue for us to carry that cash. We only carry about 40E in our pockets in case of pick pockets. It really comes down to what you are comfortable with...everyone is different.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I've found this to be true, and do the same... "many of the family hotels that we stay in either request cash or provide a discount for cash when asked."

We keep enough cash for that kind of stuff but that's about it.

Otherwise, everything goes on the card when travelling. The Chase or Amazon cards are the best to limit the additional foreign exchange hit. 

Lots of pick pockets to be mindful of when travelling...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Adding a data point, in case anyone needs to withdraw cash from American ATMs.

Using a Scotiacard (and it would be the same for Tangerine) at a Bank of America ATM, there is no withdrawal fee due to the Global ATM Alliance. The withdrawal from my Scotia account worked out to a 2.6% foreign exchange fee. I didn't see any ATM fees or network fees so I think when using Bank of America machines, all fees are waived, except FX fee.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It is a challenge for us. In the US and in other countries. I suspect that having a Scotia card may be good in Mexico where we have seen a few Scotias.

The challenge for us is that we can not seem to get an ATM withdrawal with no FX fee and no ATM fee. In the US, but primarily in other countries. Our ATM withdrawals tend to be about $500-600 CAD at a time so we tend to go with the no FX optiion. And use our no FX credit card whenever possible. This year we will in all likelihood take $1500 cash with us to Thailand and do the same when we go to Mexico. Then buy local currency as needed. Our experience is that the in country exchange rates tend to be much better, and more competitive, than buying the currency at home or accessing it through an ATM.


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## MrBean (Aug 16, 2018)

Use Stack prepaid. I used it recently in Hong Kong and Malaysia. Most of the ATMs there dont charge you to use their ATM. Stack does not charge withdrawal fee. Only real fee you pay is the little markup Mastercard exchange rate charges over spot rate.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I dunno. If anyone can afford a few grand to travel abroad, withdraw a bunch of local $$ and enjoy life. Don't worry about $2 or $3 every week or so with a withdrawal.

I could be missing something. Let me know


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

MOA, if you're spending $200 a day, a 2.5% forex fee on withdrawals and charges adds up to $150 a month. Using the Scotia Passport Visa or Home Trust Visa (0% forex fee, $7.50 or $5 withdrawal fee respectively) can produce a real saving.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I understand the FX charges, but rather, I thought this was about ATM withdrawals?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

My Own Advisor said:


> I understand the FX charges, but rather, I thought this was about ATM withdrawals?


TD charges 3.5% vig to access your own money at a foreign ATM.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Geez. That's a bundle by TD kcowan. 

Why not take some local currency before you leave and use a low FX credit card? The Scotia Passport is a good one. 

Worse case - we make the odd withdrawal when travelling. It's really the cost of travelling. 

Spending $100 on a trip that might cost $5K or more is only 2% of your trip costs. You're better off focusing on getting good value for your flights, accommodations and food.

I can appreciate the problem is compounded for snowbirds and it's worse with our CDN $ tanking.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

chilly said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm planning to travel for an extended time abroad starting next fall, and am hoping you can help me to figure out my best options to minimize the fees for ATM withdrawals while travelling.
> 
> ...


It's always the same old same old with posts like this about how to manage your money when travelling. Every travel forum has countless numbers of these type of posts. They all contain, some truth, a lot of misinformation and a lot of people with very limited knowledge who are sure they know the right way.

There are some generalities you can start with but beyond that, the best answer will vary by individual and their specific circumstances. For example, someone who goes on vacation once a year for 2 weeks is not the same as someone who snowbirds for 5 months and someone going on a RTW trip for a year is different again.

People providing advice based on THEIR travel needs (which many here are doing) are of no use to you unless their needs are the same as your own. So far, unless I missed it, no one has provided specific advise aimed at YOUR needs. Assumptions are being made.

You have not in fact outlined your needs in any real way and you need to tell us where, for how long and in what way you plan to do your long term travel. If you are going to be doing a RTW or Gap Year type trip to various countries on several continents, that will impact what advise you should be getting. Asking only about FX fees at ATMs can get you answers ONLY on FX fees at ATMs, it will NOT get you an answer to the question of 'which is the best way to manage my money during MY trip.' Which question is it that you really want an answer to?

For example, suppose someone is going on a 3 month RTW cruise. They get on board that ship and 90% of all their spending is likely to occur on that ship including shore excursions, with very little of the total spend being cash from ATMs. There would be little FX fees from ATMs to consider. There would be more important factors to consider in terms of what credit card they use, not what debit card. They might be far better off spending their time and energy finding the best 'cash back' credit card to use rather than on how to save a few dollars on ATM withdrawals. Suppose someone is planning to spend 6 months in Africa travelling from north to south. They will have far more reason to be concerned with cash and what it costs them. There are countless scenarios that each has its own 'best' answer to how to manage your money when on YOUR trip. The question is, what is your scenario and as I said, you haven't told us that.

So, what kind of travel is it that you plan to do, to where and for how long?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

My Own Advisor said:


> Geez. That's a bundle by TD kcowan.
> ...
> I can appreciate the problem is compounded for snowbirds and it's worse with our CDN $ tanking.


We use Home Trust Visa and for cash we have a local bank account that gives us a good rate on our Canadian cheques for deposit (Intercam). We currently have 700,000 pesos on deposit earning 7.5% for 12 months. We expect to spend many of them then on furnishing for our new condo.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

In some countries it is not unusual to see ATM withdrawal fees of $8-10. At the Canadian end your bank could charge a 2.5-3.5 percent premium on exchange. You bank, like ours, could also charge a $5. foreign ATM fee.

So, if you were to withdraw $100. CAD from say, an ATM in Thailand, from our regular bank, you would pay $8.50 in Thai fees, $2.50 in FX charges, and $5 in foreign ATM fees. That is $16, 16 percent. More if you bank's FX fee exceeds 2.5 percent.

We travel for 4 months of the year, sometimes more. This is why we pay attention to fees. We put as much as possible on our no FX fee credit card, we do cash advances from our no FX fee credit card. We try to get the cash fee down to the in country ATM fee, and the 1.5 cash advance fee below an effective rate of 3 percent by thinking about the best way to do it vs willy nilly paying as much as 12-16 percent.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Ah crap. I just noticed you added to this thread which is a 2015 original posting. I wasted my time responding to the OP asking about his travel plans.

How about a general agreement by regular posters that when posting a new comment on an old thread, the person adding a new comment puts a large.

"NOTE, THIS IS A NEW COMMENT ON AN OLD THREAD".

It is a constantly recurring issue on many forums. Some forums 'lock' threads after a specific period of time with no activity to prevent this. Obviously, this forum does not do that.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Exactly what is is about those ATM withdrawal numbers/percentages that are incorrect or 'crap'?

As I recall, we paid a similar ATM withdrawal fee from a Scotiabank ATM in Mexico (we do not have a Scotia account) two months ago.


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## houska (Feb 6, 2010)

Since this thread has been resurrected, noting that we've been pleasantly surprised that HSBC Premier has reimbursed nearly all of our ATM fees this fall in Mexico and Argentina.

Especially in Argentina, the fees were quite significant (C$6-10 by the local bank alone on a max $150-equivalent withdrawal). 
However, through HSBC Premier in Canada we several years ago opened an HSBC Premier US-domiciled account, and foreign ATM withdrawals from that account are i) without HSBC-imposed fee, ii) no fx rate surcharge. We didn't realize it, but there is also some algorithm for refunding the fee of the ATM provider. It was a bit bizarre, so e.g. on a withdrawal with a $6 fee we'd get a $5 credit 2 days later, and for a $10.50 fee we got a $10.20 credit a week later, but we're not complaining.

Note the no fx surcharge applies also to both US and Canadian issued HSBC Premier Mastercard credit cards, but only to the US-issued ATM/debit card. The ATM fee reimbursement applies to both Canadian- and US-issued ATM cards.

HSBC Premier requires letting HSBC take care of $100k of your assets; not a $100k balance minimum in your accounts, but e.g. moving $100k of investment assets to their rather old-in-the-tooth but serviceable InvestDirect platform. Then you need to apply for the US-domiciled bank account, and I've heard that is now harder (as a US non-resident) that it used to be. So compared to other options available, it would not be worth jumping through all these hoops purely to save a few $ on foreign ATM fees, but it was the right thing for us when we used to work as expats, and we're happy to continue to reap the benefits now!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I wasn't referring to your comment at all ian. I was referring to the post being resurrected by whoever first posted on it again recently.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

One board I am on warns that you are about to post on a thread that is xx months old and asks if you are sure.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

As an aside, cash advance on the Home card works. The rate, appears to be the Xe.com rate was about $12 better than the visa exchange rate. Got charged $766 as per the xe.com rate. Home s/ c was 1.5 percent as advertised.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> As an aside, cash advance on the Home card works. The rate, appears to be the Xe.com rate was about $12 better than the visa exchange rate. Got charged $766 as per the xe.com rate. Home s/ c was 1.5 percent as advertised.


Interesting! I'm still collecting HomeTrust data, only 6 data points so not very thorough, but am seeing an average of 0.4% higher than XE rates (quite good so far) on regular cc transactions.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Home trust, to us, appears to use the visa exchange rate. You go in, set the premium at 0 percent. So far it has been bang on.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

ian said:


> As an aside, cash advance on the Home card works. The rate, appears to be the Xe.com rate was about $12 better than the visa exchange rate. Got charged $766 as per the xe.com rate. Home s/ c was 1.5 percent as advertised.


Ian, can you describe this transaction for me in more detail? I feel a little thick about understanding its advantages. (I have an HT card.)
If I understand this correctly, the cash advance attracts a 1.5% upfront charge, which is certainly better than the typical 2.5-3% currency exchange vig. But doesn't it also immediately start accruing normal interest charges @ 19.9%? 
Also, if a card user takes a cash advance, do they lose their grace period on regular credit charges? IOW, once you start owing interest does it apply to the entire balance, or only to the cash advance?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I start by establishing a credit balance on our card. We are traveling at the moment. We overpay the card. At the moment we have a $1300 credit on the card. Today will be taking a $600-$800 cash advance from an atm. No interest charges because we keep a credit balance right through to our billing date. By the time we get to our billing date the credit balance will be down to one or two hundred. We fill it up again if we anticipate another cash advance.

Why such a large ATM withdrawal? We are in Thailand at the moment. Banks here levy an ATM charge of 220 bhat on all foreign card tranactions. That is about $8.50 CAD. Our regular bank adds on an ATM fee of $5. Many hotels and vendors want to be paid in cash. It is not unusual for some to add 3-5 percent for credit card payments. We use our card when we can but pay cash If there is a credit card surcharge.

We did this for the several years that we had the Marriott Chase card. I guess it also depends on your home bank. When we first got the Marriott Chase card we did a cash advance and a regular ATM withdrawal on our bank card on the same day, at the same time. Not only did our bank charge the uplift of 2.5, their exchange rate was higher. The delta worked out to just over 3 points. If you are not getting much cash the numbers are small.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

ian said:


> I start by establishing a credit balance on our card. We are traveling at the moment. We overpay the card. At the moment we have a $1300 credit on the card. Today will be taking a $600-$800 cash advance from an atm. No interest charges because we keep a credit balance right through to our billing date. By the time we get to our billing date the credit balance will be down to one or two hundred. We fill it up again if we anticipate another cash advance.
> 
> Why such a large ATM withdrawal? We are in Thailand at the moment. Banks here levy an ATM charge of 220 bhat on all foreign card tranactions. That is about $8.50 CAD. Our regular bank adds on an ATM fee of $5. Many hotels and vendors want to be paid in cash. It is not unusual for some to add 3-5 percent for credit card payments. We use our card when we can but pay cash If there is a credit card surcharge.


Ah, the credit balance. That explains it.
Thanks -- and enjoy the trip.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We just returned from a two month winter vacation. For fun, I added up our Home Visa card purchases (not including cash advances) that related to this trip-some before, some during. 

We saved slightly over $300 over what we would have paid in FX admin fees on our other cards. Not bad for a 'free' card. The one percent cash back added another $120 to that.

We had a note from Home Trust.....PIN numbers can now be changed on line.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That's interesting. I have never used cash advance (out of habit), but let me see if I understand this correctly:

You first make a CAD payment to the HomeTrust credit card beyond the amount owed, even when it's $0 due, to get a positive balance on it. Then when you're in a foreign country, you do a cash advance and withdraw some local currency. Are you saying that there is no foreign exchange fee even for the cash advance, the same as when purchases are made? This would mean you've converted CAD to local currency, as a cash withdrawal, with no FX fees.

There must be some kind of ATM use fee for a cash advance though, right?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Recently, I used my Scotia card at a Global ATM Alliance partner bank overseas. The FX fee on cash withdrawals was approx 2% plus zero fees for ATM use.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Home Trust fee on ATM cash advances is 1.5 percent. I think a 7.50 minimum but cannot be sure. ATM charge depends on the country. In Australia it was $3. In Thailand it was a whopping $9.25. We only used the ATM cash advance once in each country. Took plenty of cash to Thailand. Australia is the most cashless society that we have ever visited.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

We are in US and have been using our Scotia Momentum card for groceries and gas purchases. There is a Walmart Supercenter near us. It sells groceries, gas and all sorts of other stuff. What is interesting, is that we seem to get cashback on non-grocery items? Haven't checked it too closely, but definitely some things I bought in the Auto dept received cashback. Looks like it is working out to about 1.7% cashback after the FX fees.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Home Trust fee on ATM cash advances is 1.5 percent. I think a 7.50 minimum but cannot be sure. ATM charge depends on the country. In Australia it was $3. In Thailand it was a whopping $9.25. We only used the ATM cash advance once in each country. Took plenty of cash to Thailand. Australia is the most cashless society that we have ever visited.


Ah I see, so it can vary a lot by country.

I didn't find Australia cashless at all! I went through several hundred dollars cash, average 50 AUD per day, which I entirely used up. This was used at restaurants and street food in Sydney, grocery stores, cafes, ferry and bus tickets, and equipment rentals. In fact I think Australia is very cash friendly, as many places charge 1% to 2% fee for credit cards which creates a disincentive for credit cards.

Do the ATMs warn of the fee before you use it? This cash advance technique sounds like a great backup method. I hate the idea of just relying on a single debit card for access to cash.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We were in Australia for a month. Gold Coast/Brisbane, Sunshine Coast, Tasmania ending with 5 days in Sydney. We took $500 cash advance from an ATM on arrival. We were only asked to pay a premium on a credit transaction once. It was a small purchase so we paid cash. Paid cash once for a few other things. Two days prior to leaving Sydney we had $150. AUD so we started to pay cash in order to get it down to nil. We got it down to $15.

We used a Commonwealth Bank ATM. There was a screen screen after the PIN was accepted and after I had input the amount that indicated that there would be a $3 AUD charge. At that point I had to acknowledge/agree or terminate the transaction. Exactly the same in Thailand, only the fee was 220 bhat (9.25CAD) This time we took $1200 CAD to Thailand. Exchanged it for a very good rate at a recommended FX store, hence we only did one withdrawal in Thailand.

We absolutely never use our bank debit cards in Canada and especially when traveling. We want the credit card benefits but more importantly we do no want anyone being able to access our bank account. Plus we like the fact that if the credit card is compromised there is no issue in terms of who pays, ie the credit card company.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Travel forums are full of threads on how best to handle funds when travelling. 

THE best way is to use a card that has no ATM useage fees and no exchange loading. Such cards do exist. When pre-loading a credit card, all you are looking at doing is avoiding the daily interest on a credit card cash advance, NOT the ATM usage fee or the exchange loading costs. Most Canadian cards add 2.5% exchange loading. Depending on how much money is involved during the course of your trip, this can be far more than the ATM useage fees and the cash advance interest costs. So advice on avoiding cash advance interest costs is really just 'sweating the small stuff' while ignoring the real elephants in the room.

So while it is fine to tell people to pre-load a card to avoid interest, the two fees that can still be being paid will cost far more. For example, a card that charges 20% annual interest will result in you paying $16 on a $1000 withdrawal if you pay it in full on the next due date. If that card also charges you 2.5% in exchange loading, that 2.5% will cost you $25.00 and if there is an ATM useage fee that results in say $10 being charged as you withdraw the $1000 over a couple of withdrawals, then you may have avoided $16 but will still pay $35 in fees still.

So when talking about why pre-load a credit card, the explanation should include the caveat that this only avoids interest on the cash advance and not the ATM usage fee or the exchange loading if your cards charges for those.

The Home Trust Preferred Visa will charge interest if you do not pre-load and will charge 1.5% for ATM usage but does not charge any exchange loading. If you pre-load, you will therefore end up with a 1.5% of the total amount cost. Scotia Bank Passport Visa Infinite will charge a $7.50 flat fee for an ATM usage fee outside of Canada unless it is a Global ATM Alliance Bank in which case it will be a $3.50 flat fee for ATM usage. Note the difference and what it will mean depending on the number of withdrawals you make. You could make say 5 withdrawals of $200 each with Home Trust and it would cost $15.00 total while the same 5 withdrawals with the Scotia Bank card would cost up to $7.50 x 5 = $37.50 Not to mention a portion of the annual fee to get the card to begin with. So it matters how you prefer to handle your money as to which would be better for you. Withdrawing large amounts of cash from an ATM is NEVER a good idea when travelling. While the risk of being robbed or simply having the money fall out of your pocket may be small, the cost would be high if it happens. Smaller withdrawals, smaller risk.

Canada is poorly served when it comes to a card for a Canadian traveller to choose. They all cost you money to use no matter what you do. They either charge usage fees and/or exchange loading. Saying there is no exchange loading is fine but if it is offset by usage fees, then how far ahead are you really. The Home Trust charges you 1.5% in usage fee which to me simply means you are paying 1.5% to exchange your money. It's better than 2.5% obviously, but there ain't no free lunch.
https://www.rewardscanada.ca/NoFXFees/

Compare that to cards from other countries like the UK, USA and Australia which offer you no usage fees and no exchange loading. That leaves only interest on cash advances and that is avoided by using Debit cards that also offer no usage fees and no exchange loading. No need to pre-load a credit card at all. For many years, I used bank debit and credit cards from a UK Building Society (somewhat like a Credit Union here in Canada). All ATM withdrawals using my debit card and all transactions using my credit card cost ZERO in any way. I still use those cards when travelling but deposit funds in my UK bank account before travelling, using a Forex company which costs me 1% on exchange. What's more, besides the cost you see such as the 1.5% Home Trust charges you, you pay another 1% to Visa/Mastercard for use of their system. My UK bank eats that 1% while using Home Trust means you are actually paying 2.5% on every dollar you exchange. 

When you see the Visa/MC rate being referred to, that 1% is included. The best exchange rate is the Interbank Rate at which banks exchange money between themselves. The Visa/MC rate you see has 1% added onto that.

Then you have foreign banks adding their own ATM usage fee as indicated in some comments above. Most USA bank refund those charges to the customer.

So there are far more fees to be considered than just avoiding cash withdrawal interest and anyone giving advice on this thread should be indicating that to the reader who may not understand that while you are talking about one specific fee, it is not the only fee they need to know about. It's always best to assume the reader knows nothing and provide information with that in mind. I see far too many threads on this topic in forums that assume the reader understands something to begin with or that indicate the writers themselves do not actually understand it all.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

When travelling in Europe we often withdraw large amounts of cash. Often as much as 600 or 700E depending on the ATM limit. Why? Simply because in smaller hotels we can obtain a discount of 5, more often 10 percent simply by asking for one if we pay in cash. So we typically make our withdrawals just prior to checking out. In some parts of the world small or boutique hotels will only accept cash.

We only make large cash advances when we use Home (or Chase Marriott in the past). Typically the equiv of $600-$700. Cad, We would never consider withdrawing only a few hundred, cash advance or atm withdrawal. Every cash advance we have had on the card has come across at the ex.com fx rate or within the third decimal point.

We are unfortunately stuck with Canadian cards. We would happily switch to banks in a foreign country if we could. It is not just FX either, it is all consumer service charges. But OTOH, their stock is certainly good to hold.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> We absolutely never use our bank debit cards in Canada and especially when traveling. We want the credit card benefits but more importantly we do no want anyone being able to access our bank account. Plus we like the fact that if the credit card is compromised there is no issue in terms of who pays, ie the credit card company.


This is a very interesting point and I didn't catch on to this before. You're talking about the security angle... using a debit card carries the risk of fraud and compromise, where money can be withdrawn from the chequing/savings account.

You're saying the credit card is safer due to recourse in case of compromise and theft. But on the other hand, if you pre load the card with a positive balance as you've been doing, don't you still have the danger that someone does a fraudulent cash advance? Would that loss be easier to recover than a fraudulent debit from a debit card?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

ian said:


> When travelling in Europe we often withdraw large amounts of cash. Often as much as 600 or 700E depending on the ATM limit. Why? Simply because in smaller hotels we can obtain a discount of 5, more often 10 percent simply by asking for one if we pay in cash. So we typically make our withdrawals just prior to checking out. In some parts of the world small or boutique hotels will only accept cash.


In Europe non-touristy places expect cash and will be disappointed to have to charge you extra for credit and try to convince you to go get cash instead. Merchant fees are high in Canada as well due to all the prevalence of "rewards" cards but the common people don't seem to be as conscious of this cost.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our experience is that we score most discounts for cash vs. credit card in Italy and in Greece. But, we travel to those countries a little more often than any others in Europe.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Compare that to cards from other countries like the UK, USA and Australia which offer you no usage fees and no exchange loading. That leaves only interest on cash advances and that is avoided by using Debit cards that also offer no usage fees and no exchange loading. No need to pre-load a credit card at all. For many years, I used bank debit and credit cards from a UK Building Society (somewhat like a Credit Union here in Canada). All ATM withdrawals using my debit card and all transactions using my credit card cost ZERO in any way. I still use those cards when travelling but deposit funds in my UK bank account before travelling, using a Forex company which costs me 1% on exchange. What's more, besides the cost you see such as the 1.5% Home Trust charges you, you pay another 1% to Visa/Mastercard for use of their system. My UK bank eats that 1% while using Home Trust means you are actually paying 2.5% on every dollar you exchange.
> 
> When you see the Visa/MC rate being referred to, that 1% is included. The best exchange rate is the Interbank Rate at which banks exchange money between themselves. The Visa/MC rate you see has 1% added onto that.
> 
> Then you have foreign banks adding their own ATM usage fee as indicated in some comments above. Most USA bank refund those charges to the customer.


Even TD Bank (US) is far better than TD Canada.

TD Bank (US) checking account with $2500 min balance has no fees - refunds all (US) non-TD ATM fees
TD Bank (US) cash back Visa has no annual fees and no foreign transaction fees, and cash back 1/2/3% cash back

All the hardcore travelers in the US seem to swear by Charles Schwab bank.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> This is a very interesting point and I didn't catch on to this before. You're talking about the security angle... using a debit card carries the risk of fraud and compromise, where money can be withdrawn from the chequing/savings account.
> 
> You're saying the credit card is safer due to recourse in case of compromise and theft. But on the other hand, if you pre load the card with a positive balance as you've been doing, don't you still have the danger that someone does a fraudulent cash advance? Would that loss be easier to recover than a fraudulent debit from a debit card?


Well yes and no james4beach. You have as much recourse with a debit card as with a credit card. For example, "Visa's Zero Liability Policy: Should someone steal your card, your card number, or other card details, you will not be held responsible for fraudulent purchases processed through the Visa network as long as you meet your obligations3." So recourse is not an issue, it is only ACCESS to your bank account that is an issue as they could drain your account and then you are stuck waiting to get your money back into your account after the fraudulent transactions are discovered. But that is easily avoided

I have 2 accounts for just that reason. I transfer funds from one to the other as needed and only do so in smaller amounts. So for example if 25K is in account A, I transfer 1K to account B. It is the debit card for account B that I then use when travelling. So fraudulent access to funds is limited to that 1K in account B. Account A is never at risk. In that sense, your comment re, "money can be withdrawn from the chequing/savings account.", is incorrect.

So there is no real increased risk to using the debit card over a credit card and it is far simpler than pre-loading a credit card which depending on your bank's policies does indeed mean you will have as much difficulty re-claiming your funds after a fraudulent transaction. I am totally against pre-loading a credit card for one simple reason, the money is then farther beyond your control.

For example, if someone does manage some fraudulent transactions, your money is gone until you can get it returned to your account. My money in account A (in my example above of 2 debit cards) is going nowhere, only the small balance in B is ever at risk. 

If your credit card provider puts a 'hold' on your card for whatever reason, you cannot access your funds. I can access my funds in A still or if none of my cards are working, I can have money transferred by various means from account A to my hands wherever I am. I have had a credit card put on 'hold' twice while travelling, in both cases I had to revert to a backup card. How do you go to a backup card if your funds are in fact tied up on a specific credit card? You have to go to a second source of funds whereas I will still be tapping account A simply through a second means.

I once had a car rental 'max out' a credit card when I refused their insurance. This is not uncommon at all. The car rental will put through a large hold on funds on your credit card to cover themselves when you refuse their insurance. You are in fact insuring them in such a case. So I had a hold on funds of say $20k on my credit card when this happened. Next time I went to use that card, it was denied. Oops. Time to go to a backup card.

Now suppose I had had $X pre-loaded on that first card. Access to those funds is gone until I return the rental car and the process re-balances itself to allow me to use my card again. It's fine to say, 'well if you have a second credit card, you aren't stuck' and that's true but the whole point was to minimize costs and there is little doubt that when using the second card, it will be costing you more than your plan for using the first card was going to cost you.

As I have said, there are all kinds of situations that can be in play and the best answer may differ from one to another as will the best answers based on how you are travelling and what kind of businesses you are dealing with. 

For example, it is fine to say that you can expect a discount for cash in some places and with some businesses. Just how do you think that will fare with hotels who no longer even ACCEPT cash? If you don't believe that, just do a Google search. Some won't even accept a debit card, only credit cards. 

Then there is the question of amount. It may be no big deal to pay for one or two nights stay with cash. How about if your hotel bill for 10 nights including extras like meals in their restaurant, drinks at their bar, etc. comes to say $5k. How do you withdraw $5k at an ATM? The answer of course is that you are going to have to make multiple withdrawals based on your maximum daily withdrawal limit. 

Every situation has a 'best' answer but no one way of handling your funds when travelling will be the best way every time. So you need to look at how YOU travel, understand ALL of the ways of handling your funds and figure out the best way for YOU to do things. Anyone else's 'best way' is irrelevant unless they travel exactly the same way as you do.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We travel with three different credit cards each and we both have at least two ways of accessing cash money. This seems a little over the top but this is what we do. We keep the cards separate. Our biggest fear when traveling is being unable to access cash or credit. We keep our daily cash completely separate and in a different place from our cards, passport, passport/DL, and other cash.

So far this has worked for us. We have never lost a card, had an unknown transaction posted to a card. I have been pick pocketed. My loss was a very old billfold and about 25E.

Our credit cards have been compromised but it was always been at home, not while traveling. When we withdraw cash when travelling we always do it during daylight areas and when possible try to find an ATM that is physically inside the financial institution vs a street facing unit. DW stands behind me in case of snatch and grab while the cash goes into my neck bag.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

ian said:


> When we withdraw cash when travelling we always do it during daylight areas and when possible try to find an ATM that is physically inside the financial institution vs a street facing unit. DW stands behind me in case of snatch and grab while the cash goes into my neck bag.


Yes we preload the CC after we have determined the ATM we will use. Then we head there from our hotel right after the preload and withdraw the money. Very little risk. And very convenient. After that we are back to using convenience credit where it is accepted and not surcharged. We also ensure that the retail charges are made in their local currency rather than an inflated FX. The only place this does not work anymore in Paypal so we no longer use it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> We travel with three different credit cards each and we both have at least two ways of accessing cash money. This seems a little over the top but this is what we do.


Same here. Always 3 cards when out of the country. I'm a solo traveller so I have to be a little bit more careful. Money resources are usually split up between pants, shirt and bag... presumably I won't be robbed of all three at once.

I also use a money belt, seemingly a regular black plastic belt that looks like this, which contains about $200 in folded bills. It's plastic so it goes through airport security and it never comes off.

The theory is that as long as I don't lose my pants, I'll have enough emergency cash.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

At one point, I spent around 10 years living from ATMs. Every dollar I spent during those years came from an ATM in cash. As a 'semi-nomad', with no local bank account or credit cards, I had to rely on my 'foreign' credit and debit cards for every dollar I spent. I paid nothing with my cards, everything was paid in cash. That way, I had only to keep track of the cash withdrawals coming out of my 'foreign' bank accounts.

So as you might imagine, with all my spending being dependent on ATMs, becoming knowledgeable about the ins and outs of foreign exchange and fees in regards to using ATMs became a priority for me. It did not take me very long to realize that withdrawing from my Canadian bank account in other countries could cost me a lot of money over the course of a year. So I searched for an found banks and cards that would charge me ZERO in any way for making withdrawals at an ATM in another country.

But when it comes to the average traveller which is what we are talking about here, I also came to realize that there is no 'best' answer in terms of 'one size fits all.' Someone who goes on one 2 week vacation once a year; pays for their flights and hotel in advance; then spends say $2k while actually away, actually needs to do absolutely nothing about such fees in my opinion. Who cares if spending that $2k costs you $2,000 or $2,050? On a $5,000 total cost vacation, it's a 1% difference. It is only when you travel a lot, spend a lot in foreign currency that anyone should start to be concerned about the 'best' way to deal with handling their funds. A 'Snowbird' spending 5 months in another country has a reason to be concerned as does anyone who is living full time in another country but has their income derived in a home' country in another currency. But not the typical vacationer.

A card may charge you 2.5% exchange loading and incur an ATM usage fee of say $5 but it may also provide you with rental car insurance which will cost you say $35 per day if you had to pay for it. Using a card that avoids the 2.5% and/or pays you 1% in cashback etc. but does not provide you with rental car insurance would then be the wrong card to use.

My point is that there is a practical point at which it makes sense to look for the 'best' card to use but you can also get to the point where you are using a different card for each type of use and unless it involves large sums of money, sometimes it just isn't worth bothering about. Unless of course you actually can't afford that extra $50 cost on a vacation, in which case I would say you can't afford the vacation.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Rec'd my new Home Trust card. Called in and changed my PIN number. No CSR required...it is all accomplished on your phone. Also noticed that they now offer paperless billing which we prefer. So now, Home Trust has indeed resolved some of their niggling outstanding issues.

At the recommendation of another poster we may give the Stack Mastercard a try on our next trip. Similar to using cash advances on our Home card inasmuch as you have to load money in prior to using a foreign ATM. No charge from Stack vs the 1.5 from Home on cash advances. Slight difference on FX between the Visa an Mastercard mid market rates. It will give us another access to cash on extended trips.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> unless it involves large sums of money, sometimes it just isn't worth bothering about. Unless of course you actually can't afford that extra $50 cost on a vacation, in which case I would say you can't afford the vacation.


Yup. I'm gonna go withdraw $500 Euros from the bank tonight (BMO). Looks like it'll cost me $32 in the spread over spot rate. Oh well. Better than scrambling around somewhere in Europe to find an ATM that works and only getting charged $22 instead.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I emailed Home Trust to send me a credit card...they wanted me to fill out a few forms. I told them all my information & credit ratings etc is available to them already so just send the card. So far they have politely refused. Strange....CIBC,RBC and Capital One tripped over themselves sending me a card without associated paper work.

Is it normal to fill out all these forms?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We would not bother either if it were small amounts. But over a 12 month period we could withdraw as much as $6K from foreign ATMS. Just depends on where we go and how long we stay.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ag Driver said:


> Prepping for a 3 month trip to Poland. From what I gather from this thread, opening a bank account is likely not required. Spending will be normal daily spending on groceries, cell phone, etc. Rent is Air BnB.
> 
> Home Trust Visa, pre-loaded cash advance = 1.5% fee + ATM fee
> or
> Tangerine Debit at Global ATM Alliance = No ATM fee and + 2.5% FX fee


Those are 2 good options for withdrawing local cash. I made a list with some more options here

There's been some discussion on cmf about airbnb screwing people on the currency exchange at their own rate, regardless if you use a "low foreign transaction fee" card. I'd google this to see if you can set airbnb to let your low FTF card pay in the local currency. PayPal plays the same game and buries the settings so deep you need step by step instructions to find them

TransferWise is supposed to bring their borderless debit card to Canada soon


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Ag Driver..our experience is that we generally have to pay ATM fees. These are the ones charged by the bank whose ATM you are using. Some Canadian banks do refund these fees to you but this depends on the bank and on the country. Charges really vary. Last month we paid $3AUD per ATM withdrawal in Australia. In Thailand the charge is $8.25 CAD for each ATM withdrawal-levied by all banks. Vietnam banks charge less but have a low limit on the withdrawal amount. Our experience is that Europe can really vary by country and by financial institution both in terms of ATM withdrawal limit and ATM fee. 

It appears to me that the Stack Mastercard may indeed be better than our Home card. We buy many of our travel products in foreign currency and we our typically out of the country for 4-5 month a year so the charges can add up.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Stack mastercard is interesting. I'm waiting to see how it and the Transferwise cards pan out

Pre-paid cards for example have issues with accommodations because they do a pre-auth to secure funds for damages

However you can book with one card and then pay with a pre-paid card but it can be a hassle


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I wasn't sure where to put this, but I posted my Home Trust Visa exchange rate tracking in this other thread. I'm seeing an average of 0.27% foreign exchange fee versus the ideal rate I recorded from XE.

It should be noted that nobody converts at the ideal XE rate as there is always a spread. I'm blown away by how good that 0.27% average FX fee is... this is basically nil foreign exchange fee. I will be using the Home Trust Visa for all international travel.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> PayPal plays the same game and buries the settings so deep you need step by step instructions to find them


No they no longer allow it as of 2018 and they are upfront about that. They get to set your exchange rate in all cases.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> No they no longer allow it as of 2018 and they are upfront about that. They get to set your exchange rate in all cases.


Yea I have completely separate PayPal accounts now for different currencies. Unfortunately US Paypal can only connect to a US domiciled bank for example

PayPal will have its lunch eaten by the likes of TransferWise. Some niche websites still only accept PayPal payment though


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> Some niche websites still only accept PayPal payment though


Yes and I advise them that I will use a CC but not PP if they want my business/donation.


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## l1quidfinance (Mar 17, 2017)

Ag Driver said:


> I was looking into opening up a local bank account and using Transfer wise. It appears they charge around 1% for FX fees


If your looking into opening a local bank take a look at N26 Bank from Germany. Register from numerous Eurpoean countries including Poland. Very very simple online application. So simple I actually signed up just to test it out with transferwise. You just need a European address for the initial registration so you could register from your air bnb address or just use a European friends address. Its not a proof of residence just an address for which the card can be sent. 

Free account, Free debits, free atm withdrawal, Free SEPA transfers.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> No they no longer allow it as of 2018 and they are upfront about that. They get to set your exchange rate in all cases.


I just found the setting again to see if it's still there, although I haven't used this since the Cdn amazon card was cancelled



Settings (gear icon top right)
Payments tab
Manage automatic payments icon
Manage automatic payments link (hidden bottom left - takes you to a different layout)
Set available funding sources (hidden link center right)
Now you get a list of your linked cards with the elusive "Conversion Options" link

PayPal definitely buried this option where very few would ever find it (I had trouble replicating it to make this list)


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> I just found the setting again to see if it's still there, although I haven't used this since the Cdn amazon card was cancelled
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I had to search for both settings. Then they informed me that they will no longer honour such settings. I have had no further use since then. Please confirm that you are getting best rates since the changed announced in May 2018?


> Funded by a credit card, debit card or PayPal Credit. $0.99 USD† + 2.9% of the transaction amount funded this way plus a fixed fee based on currency (from the table below)





> Go to send money > select the personal tab > gift or family and friends option. NOW its free if you FUND that paypal payment via instant bank transfer or from funds in your paypal balance. You still pay a fee if you fund that payment via a debit or credit card


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> Please confirm that you are getting best rates since the changed announced in May 2018?


I don't have a low FTF card to test it anymore since the Cdn amazon card died

I did setup a new US paypal linked to my US domiciled TD visa. Not much point to Paypal anymore unless it's the only form of payment accepted


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

m3s said:


> I just found the setting again to see if it's still there, although I haven't used this since the Cdn amazon card was cancelled
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, m3s. 
I have launched a test of this, per Keith's concerns. First, I added my new Home Trust CC to my account. Then I followed m3s's directions. 
The layout change is odd. But my new card was listed there and it did appear that I was able to change my conversion preference from PP to the CC.
Next time I pay a US bill via PP, I will try to remember to check and update the thread. It could take a while ...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yea I'm curious if it still works or not

Really weird how it throws you into that retro paypal site last few steps


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

fireseeker said:


> Thank you, m3s.
> I have launched a test of this, per Keith's concerns. First, I added my new Home Trust CC to my account. Then I followed m3s's directions.
> The layout change is odd. But my new card was listed there and it did appear that I was able to change my conversion preference from PP to the CC.
> Next time I pay a US bill via PP, I will try to remember to check and update the thread. It could take a while ...


Thanks. I had my amazon card set up properly but have not bothered registering the Home Trust one owing to their clearly stated notice. Please report asap. They might get me back yet. Registering the CC with all those different websites is a pain.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Anyone take advantage of Scotiabank's Global ATM feature. We have been considering a change of banks plus we are considering a month's travel to Morocco in the fall and a month in Mexico in the winter. Both places have Scotiabank partners. Seems to me the one time that I used an ATM in Mexico last year we got zapped for about $7 in ATM fees by the Mexican bank. 

Is this feature for real or is there a hitch. I realize there will be an FX fee. If it is real we could carry less money on our persons and use the ATM more often.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Carrying large amounts of cash is simply foolish. If you cannot find a card available to you with no FX loading costs, then yes, the Scotiabank Debit card will work to avoid ATM useage fees if you go to a Global Alliance affiliated bank.

https://www.ratehub.ca/blog/best-bank-accounts-in-canada-for-international-travel/ You will pay 2.5% exchange loading on each transaction but no ATM useage fee.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We use a credit card with no FX fees. There are some countries where we need cash, either because this is the custom or the surcharge for using a credit card is high. We have no problem carrying cash in some countries and there are times when we need the equiv. of $500. to pay for accommodation. Especially in Italy, Greece, or Turkey where paying cash can yield a good discount.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

ian said:


> We use a credit card with no FX fees. There are some countries where we need cash, either because this is the custom or the surcharge for using a credit card is high. We have no problem carrying cash in some countries and there are times when we need the equiv. of $500. to pay for accommodation. Especially in Italy, Greece, or Turkey where paying cash can yield a good discount.


Morocco is one of those countries where you need cash. Although not much. I remember staying at many nice places for less than the cost of a meal in europe and most rooms include homemade meals (ask for demi-pension) Prices in Morocco are always negotiable. Pork and alcohol is pretty scarce but I liked the food (try the vegetarian options too because the meat options get repetitive, maybe considered expensive) The major tourist spots get really annoying because of pestering "helpers" but the regions are very different. Now I want to motorbike it again


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Anyone take advantage of Scotiabank's Global ATM feature. We have been considering a change of banks plus we are considering a month's travel to Morocco in the fall and a month in Mexico in the winter. Both places have Scotiabank partners. Seems to me the one time that I used an ATM in Mexico last year we got zapped for about $7 in ATM fees by the Mexican bank.
> 
> Is this feature for real or is there a hitch. I realize there will be an FX fee. If it is real we could carry less money on our persons and use the ATM more often.


I use this Scotiabank feature all the time and have found it useful for my travels. Within the last few months I've used Bank of America (US) and Westpac (Australia) which are in the Global ATM Alliance. I haven't seen any catch or surprise fee. There is one debit in account activity, corresponding to the withdrawal including the FX fee. No other fee transaction. For the last few that I did in Australia, the FX fee was between 2.4% - 3.0%

This page at Tangerine (a Scotia subsidiary) says that their card also has the same benefit.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks James. Your experience is exactly what I was looking for. We are going to open an account at Scotiabank this week.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The FX exchange cost should not be varying james4beach. Scotiabank charges 2.5%. The foreign bank where you withdraw the funds should not be affecting that rate at all. If you really think it varied, then you should talk to Scotiabank and ask for an explanation.

The only reason I can think of for you seeing a variance would be if you are using a rate you see online one day to compare to the rate you were charged on another day. Don't forget, it is not the rate on the day you make a purchase that matters, it is the rate on the day the bank does the exchange that matters. That can vary for example if you make a purchase on say a Sunday and Scotiabank does not process the transaction till the Monday. But the spread you mention seems to be too broad to be just because of that.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Longtimeago said:


> The FX exchange cost should not be varying james4beach. Scotiabank charges 2.5%.


Is it always 2.5% for every currency? That would make sense. For my earlier post I had looked back at historical daily data because I had not written down the exact market FX rate of the day


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Is it always 2.5% for every currency?


Except for TD which charges 3.5% and sees to be getting away with it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> Except for TD which charges 3.5% and sees to be getting away with it.


Yea I have TD Canada's top chequing account and their "preferred exchange rate" always failed against my Tangerine card

Now TD Bank (US) has NO FTX debit card and credit cards and they are free with $100 min balance (Canadians can sign up online in minutes and use a Canadian mailing address) The top tier checking account refunds non-TD ATM fees

TD US is turning out to be a hidden gem for a Canadian


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Is it always 2.5% for every currency? That would make sense. For my earlier post I had looked back at historical daily data because I had not written down the exact market FX rate of the day


The exchange rate used is determined by your bank, not the bank of the country in which you make a withdrawal. Each bank sets its own rate and in the case of most but not all as kcowan notes, Canadian banks charge 2.5%. So yes, it is always 2.5% FX with Scotiabank.

The other fee people get confused with is 'Useage fee'. This is a fee that is charged for the 'use' of an ATM network such as Interac or Cirrus Plus. This is a per transaction fixed fee rather than a percentage. That is what using a Global Alliance partner ATM will let you avoid.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> Yea I have TD Canada's top chequing account and their "preferred exchange rate" always failed against my Tangerine card
> 
> Now TD Bank (US) has NO FTX debit card and credit cards and they are free with $100 min balance (Canadians can sign up online in minutes and use a Canadian mailing address) The top tier checking account refunds non-TD ATM fees
> 
> TD US is turning out to be a hidden gem for a Canadian


I am not familiar with your suggestion here m3s. But on the info you have provided so far, I am suspicious. As I read it, you open an account with this US bank, so far so good. But if you are in Canada, how do you deposit your funds from Canada and in what currency? I'm guessing you transfer funds from a Canadian bank account to the US bank account and in the process, either you exchange CAD to USD with your Canadian bank or with the US bank and end up with USD in the US bank. Is that correct, and if so, what exchange rate is used when you make that transfer? I suspect that is where an FX loading will occur.

You then visit say Europe and withdraw from an ATM there with no FX loading added and no useage fees. That's fine IF you do not pay any FX to change your funds from CAD to USD to begin with. Otherwise, it is a waste of time.

I would like to read more on it if you can provide a link to exactly the kind of account and the terms and conditions of the account. I have had a look but cannot find anything definitive. I did find, 

"Quick online exchange
Exchange Canadian funds to U.S. funds and vice versa, easily through EasyWeb Online banking and the TD app"

On this site: https://www.td.com/ca/en/personal-banking/products/bank-accounts/us-dollar-accounts/borderless-plan/

But obviously, that does not say anything about what rate of exchange will be used. That's where I suspect the FX loading may be charged. Banks often disguise this even to the extent of saying, 'no foreign exchange fees'. They can say this legally as there is not a 'fee' charged, there is only an exchange 'rate' that is used. What rate they use is entirely up to them. So instead of using the Interbank Rate which is the rate at which banks transfer money between themselves, they use say the Interbank Rate PLUS 2.5% for example when dealing with you. 

Again, if you can provide a link to the account you are referring to, I would be interested in looking at it more closely.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I'm guessing you transfer funds from a Canadian bank account to the US bank account and in the process, either you exchange CAD to USD with your Canadian bank or with the US bank and end up with USD in the US bank. Is that correct, and if so, what exchange rate is used when you make that transfer? I suspect that is where an FX loading will occur.


I have USD income and USD investment accounts linked to this US based USD account but from time to time I do rebalance/exchange funds using a third party or norbit's gambit (I used XE in the past but I read that TransferWise is better nowadays at 0.5%) I don't exchange at big bank rates.



Longtimeago said:


> On this site: https://www.td.com/ca/en/personal-banking/products/bank-accounts/us-dollar-accounts/borderless-plan/
> 
> But obviously, that does not say anything about what rate of exchange will be used. That's where I suspect the FX loading may be charged. Banks often disguise this even to the extent of saying, 'no foreign exchange fees'. They can say this legally as there is not a 'fee' charged, there is only an exchange 'rate' that is used. What rate they use is entirely up to them. So instead of using the Interbank Rate which is the rate at which banks transfer money between themselves, they use say the Interbank Rate PLUS 2.5% for example when dealing with you.
> 
> Again, if you can provide a link to the account you are referring to, I would be interested in looking at it more closely.


Yea naw that's the TD Canada "Crossborder" Canadian based USD account for Canadians which entirely different and pointless gimmick imo

I'm talking about the TD Bank NA (USA) that is an actual phsyical bank in the USA for Americans separate from TD Canada in Canada for Canadians. The TD crossborder office however is able to assist with both banks, especially for Canadians with accounts at TD Bank NA (USA). For example they can use Canadian credit reports to approve US credit from TD Bank (US). I can also see my TD Bank (USA) balance on my TD Canada (Canada!) online summary.

*There are no foreign transaction fees with the following TD Visa cards: TD Debit Card, TD Go Card, TD Connect Card, TD Cash Credit Card, and TD First Class Credit Card. See the Important Credit Card Terms and Conditions for TD Cash and TD First Class for details.
*source

TL;DR TD Canada for Canadians =/= TD Bank NA for Americans


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> I have USD income and USD investment accounts linked to this US based USD account but from time to time I do rebalance/exchange funds using a third party or norbit's gambit (I used XE in the past but I read that TransferWise is better nowadays at 0.5%) I don't exchange at big bank rates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if you had made it clear in the beginning m3s then it would have saved anyone thinking you were suggesting something of use to a Canadian traveller living in Canada as a way to avoid FX loading costs when travelling. Your 'solution' only applies to someone with US funds to begin with, such as yourself. You did NOT make that clear in your previous post. It's useless for the average Canadian traveller.

Just how you think, "the TD US is turning out to be a hidden gem for a Canadian" and writing that, "Canadians can sign up online in minutes and use a Canadian mailing address", as if ANY Canadian could use this method to avoid FX loading as a traveller is ridiculous. 

Many US banks offer no exchange loading or useage fees when travelling, to their customers. It isn't difficult for an American to find such accounts and cards at all, just as it is easy for people from the UK or Australia to do the same. The question here is what is available to a CANADIAN in CANADA. You have added nothing to the thread in that regard and would have in fact simply added to the misleading and incorrect information such threads always generate, if I had not questioned your comment.

If you want to suggest a possible answer that is applicable to a specific set of individuals, then you have to indicate that to BEGIN with and not imply it is an answer to a thread that is not aimed at that specific group to begin with.


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## Joebaba (Jan 31, 2017)

Longtimeago said:


> If you want to suggest a possible answer that is applicable to a specific set of individuals, then you have to indicate that to BEGIN with and not imply it is an answer to a thread that is not aimed at that specific group to begin with.


m3s suggests a perfectly valid and practical solution available to most Canadians.

As he/she says, a CANADIAN in CANADA, can easily open an American account with TD Bank (the US arm of TD Canada Trust). 
Then that same Canadian (living in Canada) can fund that account with US dollars using Knightbridge, or Transferwise, or Norbert's Gambit.
This should cost 0.5% (or less) in fx fees.

Once the account is funded with US dollars, one can then use their debit card to take out cash or make payments around the world, at 0% further fx fees and $0 fees for ATM usage.

I don't understand why this seems so onerous or exclusive. Ian above, has already indicated he is planning to open a new bank account with ScotiaBank to get the Global ATM feature, so he can save on ATM fees, but still pay 2.5% in fx fees.
He could just as easily open a new account with TD bank, and pay $0 in ATM fees, and 0.5% or less in total FX fees.

(edited for a typo)


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

m3s's comments regarding TD were perfectly clear to me.

Had we still had a US dollar bank account to accept USD monies we would surely select this option. Alas, we no longer have this USD income and we have exhausted our USD account.

The big challenge in Canada is 'the club', ie the big banks. Together they try to ensure as little competition in the consumer banking space as possible to ensure ridiculously high service fees. Not dissimilar to the telcos wireless providers.

Fortunately some of the on- line banks, credit unions, and schedule B banks, etc are slowly chipping away at that.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Joebaba said:


> m3s suggests a perfectly valid and practical solution available to most Canadians.
> 
> As he/she says, a CANADIAN in CANADA, can easily open an American account with TD Bank (the US arm of TD Canada Trust).
> Then that same Canadian (living in Canada) can fund that account with US dollars using Knightbridge, or Transferwise, or Norbert's Gambit.
> ...


If that suggestion had been made I would agree Joebaba. However, what was implied was not that someone use a third party along with this method to avoid FX loading costs. This is a topic that requires absolute clarity to avoid misunderstanding by a reader. I have seen hundreds of threads on this topic of how to handle funds when travelling, on travel forums I sometimes participate in. Every single time, misleading, incorrect and incomplete comments are made that can and do mislead readers who take them at face value and do not do their own due diligence to find what will work best for them in their own particular situation.

Let's suppose someone reads 'open a TD US account online in minutes and you will avoid FX loading.' That's the basic message someone could read. Let's further suppose that person travels on vacation once a year for 2 weeks and after having paid for their airfare and hotel from home, actually only have to consider having to exchange one or two thousand dollars while visiting wherever it is they are going. Does it make sense for them to open this account and then use a third party to transfer funds to that account to save 2% (2.5 the bank would charge minus the .5% Transferwise would charge) to save $20 on a $1000 of spending? In my opinion, the answer is absolutely not. The $20 is simply not worth the effort.

So NO, it is not a 'perfectly valid and practical solution available to most Canadians.' It will make no sense whatsoever to MOST Canadians, only to a small percentage.

How to handle your funds when travelling is a question for which there is no simple answer. It depends entirely on the individual and how, when, where and for how long they travel. The answer has to be individually tailored to the answer to those questions. Yet people continue to ask as if there were a one size fits all answer and others continue to post how they handle their funds AS IF it were applicable to all others.

Yes, Ian could follow this method as you say, IF it was worth his while to do so. But I doubt he would do so to save $20 once a year. Or he could do as I do, open an account with a UK bank that is FX and usage fee free and have is UK income deposited to that account. Why didn't I think to suggest that to him? Umm, maybe because I didn't asssume he had access to doing that or income to put in that account, etc. or that it would matter enough to do so.

I lived/travelled for YEARS in various countries, using only my debit and credit cards to access my funds. Every single dollar I spent for those years went through my cards. Think about it. I spent 10s of thousands each year using my cards and that meant that it was very important to me to do so in the most cost effective way possible. I used only cards that had ZERO added costs of any kind for ATM usage or FX loading. The amount of effort necessary to get those cards was easily outweighed by the amount of funds involved. If I had been paying $5 per transaction and 2.5% exchange loading, it would have cost in me in the 5 figures easily overall. But that is not an 'average' Canadian traveller.

Now I will suggest another scenario to you Joebaba, based on my own personal experience with using cards when travelling. What happens when something goes wrong? The Canadian traveller who thinks, 'hey, I wanna save money even if it is only $20', goes ahead and follows this suggestion to open a TD US bank account. Then this traveller uses Transferwise to put his $1000 of spending money into that account. All set, off he goes. Then he arrives at his destination ready to enjoy his annual vacation and bask in the knowledge that he is going to save a whole $20 because he was so smart as to do things this way. Then he goes to an ATM to withdraw the equivalent of $200 and wonders will never cease, his card is rejected.

Huh, what, how can this be? What's going on? What does he do now? He may have his Canadian bank cards with him but the money is not in his Canadian bank account, it is in the US Bank account. OK, he can use his Canadian credit card to withdraw money instead, he'll just have to accept the $5 ATM usage fee and the 2.5% exchange loading and oh yeah, the daily interest he will have to pay for using his credit card to withdraw cash. Then he gets home and has to pay Transferwise .5% again to transfer the $1000 back to his Canadian account to cover the payment on his Canadian bank Credit Card for the money he withdrew using it. Oh well, it sounded like a good idea at the time I suppose.

In fact, for the AVERAGE Canadian traveller, who travels once or twice a year and needs to exchange less than say $5000 into local cash while away, the best thing to do is NOTHING other than use his existing Canadian bank Credit and Debit cards to make purchases and withdraw cash. Yes it will cost a few bucks but it's SIMPLE and keeping it simple as per the KISS method (keep it simple stupid) is always the best way to do things. If his card is rejected, his wife's card may work, if his Debit Card is rejected, he can resort to his Credit Card. Even opening another account to get access to the Global Alliance network isn't worth the hassle to save a few bucks per year in my opinion. 

The only generalities that are applicable to all travellers is that it is better to use cards to get the best exchange rates rather than buying cash before you leave home or using Traveller's Cheques (going the way of the Dodo, yet some still buy them) and hunting for the best exchange rate at local banks and currency exchange offices. Cards are always the best way for rates and for safety regardless of whether you pay fees or not.

The only cards that should be avoided (and yet many use them thinking they are a good deal) are 'Pre-paid Travel Cards' where you load money onto them at home. They all charge you more in the end than normal bank Debit and Credit cards. The only people who should be using them are those who cannot get a normal bank Debit or Credit card. ie. a student with no credit history for example may not be able to get a normal bank card. 

Using specific methods of reducing the cost of accessing your money while travelling makes sense when you travel often or for longer periods AND will exchange larger amounts of money in total, with 'large amounts' meaning more than say $5000 per year.


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## Joebaba (Jan 31, 2017)

"However, what was implied...."

Implied??? Really???


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Joebaba said:


> "However, what was implied...."
> 
> Implied??? Really???


Yes, implied Joebaba. Here is what was written, "Now TD Bank (US) has NO FTX debit card and credit cards and they are free with $100 min balance (Canadians can sign up online in minutes and use a Canadian mailing address) The top tier checking account refunds non-TD ATM fees

TD US is turning out to be a hidden gem for a Canadian."

Does that not 'imply' that all you have to do is open an account and away you go, no FX loading when you travel. No indication that it may only suit certain people in certain situations. It states, "for a Canadian". Is that not an all-inclusive term in your lexicon?

Communication is not dependent on what message someone INTENDS to give, it is 100% dependent on what message the other person HEARS. That is what 'implied' refers to, what the person hears. As written by m3s, the message was that if you open this account, you will avoid FX loading. That message is simply not correct in what it implies. Nor is implying that it is 'for a Canadian' correct in that it may not be the best answer at all for the majority of Canadian travellers.

If someone spends 5 months each year Snowbirding in Florida it might be better than a 'normal' Big 5 Canadian bank card. Of course opening a Home Trust account which gives you Canadian cards that do not require you to transfer funds to a US Account using a third party to whom you pay .5% (Transferwise as suggested for example) might be a better answer. In addition to no FX loading, a Home Trust card also gives you 1% cashback, free roadside assistance and rental car insurance CD coverage. Why then would the TD US card be a "hidden gem for a Canadian" in comparison?

For someone who spends 2 weeks on an annual vacation somewhere, either may not be worth the bother of applying for. As I have said and will repeat yet again, the best way to handle your funds when travelling will ALWAYS depend on the individual circumstances of the traveller. The question someone should ask is 'what is the best way for ME' and the answer from anyone if the person asking doesn't do that and include their individual criteria, should be, 'you have not provided enough information to get an answer specific to YOU.' For example, the TD US card might be the best answer for someone from Quebec where the Home Trust card is not available. Just one example of why the individual circumstances must be known before answering 'best for ME' for anyone.

James4beach asked a specific question about the Scotiabank Global Alliance. There is a specific answer to that question he asked and he got that answer. Whether it is the best way for him to handle his money overall when travelling was not the question he asked. If he had asked that question, he might well have got entirely different answers based on his individual travel criteria.


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## Joebaba (Jan 31, 2017)

m3s has provided a perfectly usable process to save money on foreign exchange transactions while travelling - which is what this thread is about.
The process is available to most Canadians living in Canada. 
We're not saying it's the only way. We're not saying you HAVE to use it. We're not even saying you SHOULD use it. But we are saying it exists.
I don't understand why you don't seem to accept that it exists. Personal bias?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

There's only a couple minor issues with the TD Bank NA (USA) setup I have encountered but otherwise it is a hidden gem that any Canadian who ever travels could use

1) Transferring USD electronically to/from Canada requires a phone call to TD Crossborder call center. Any fees are reimbursed but I would prefer an online option, which they say is coming. Otherwise if you're savvy enough to come here looking for financial advice you can probably manage another 10 minutes to sign up for TransferWise or XE

2) The good free USD cash back card with no foreign transaction fee (with $200 signup bonus for spending just $500) does require a US address withing TD Bank NA's footprint. This seems to be for US credit reporting purposes however the TD Bank NA Aeroplan card can use any USA address even outside of the TD Bank NA footprint.

It only requires $100 to keep this account free. You can sign up for and manage it from Canada. They cater specifically to Canadians. I definitely intend to keep it even when not living in USA with US income


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## Joebaba (Jan 31, 2017)

Hey m3s,

Regarding point #2 - I only have a debit card for my US TD Bank account - so no signup bonus, and no cash back. But like your card, it incurs no foreign exchange fees when used outside the US - and all ATM fees worldwide are reimbursed. And I don't have a US address - I was able to set it all up over the phone from Canada with a TD bank agent.

It might not be for everyone, but for those who choose to use it, I agree, it's a hidden gem.

Joe


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I tried to use XE to transfer USD250k and they could not handle it. They are aiming at low amount transfers. Even then, they do not work for TD and CIBC because they rely on bill payments. And those banks do not have them as payees. BMO is their agent so no problem there.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yea XE can link to all my bank accounts and payees in various countries as recipients but indeed not all banks can pay to "HIFX Canada" (Tangerine can). Coincidence or yet yet another layer of protection for the big bank fx fees?

Neither XE nor TransferWise nor PayPal could move USD - USD internationally however TD crossborder can do so for free by phone. The only other option I found was to write myself a cheque.

In Europe you just send money to an ITIN online. Simple, fast, secure and free.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Joebaba said:


> m3s has provided a perfectly usable process to save money on foreign exchange transactions while travelling - which is what this thread is about.
> The process is available to most Canadians living in Canada.
> We're not saying it's the only way. We're not saying you HAVE to use it. We're not even saying you SHOULD use it. But we are saying it exists.
> I don't understand why you don't seem to accept that it exists. Personal bias?


Where did you read that I think it doesn't exist? I understand it exists, it just isn't a good answer for most Canadians, even though available to them. Being available doesn't mean something is worth having. It works well for m3s simply because m3s has income in the US and does not need to transfer funds from a Canadian bank account. It may well work well for anyone in that same position. Is that most Canadians?

Why don't you try to explain to say a Canadian snowbirder spending 5 months per year in Florida, why a TD USA account and cards would be superior for them to using a Home Trust account as I described in my last post? Or do you not want to actually compare the TD USA suggestion to alternatives? Personal bias?

You seem to jump from pillar to post, if one argument doesn't work, you try another. What happened to your contention that nothing was 'implied'? Were you not able to argue that point any more and so thought 'well, I'll accuse him of 'not accepting that it exists'. 

My personal bias is about people who suggest something that they DO, without knowing if it is of any use to the person asking. 

When I travel, I use debit and credit cards to access my funds. I do not pay any ATM usage fees or any FX loading costs. I do not need to transfer funds from one bank to another or from one country to another, to do that. But my way will only work for someone in my position. ie. with an account with those features in a country where income is derived and deposited in that account. I do not tout it as 'a hidden gem for Canadians', even though it is 'available' to any Canadian who wants to set it up. 

This thread is not about a 'perfectly usable process to save money on foreign exchange transactions while travelling' as you write. First, you would need to define what 'perfectly usable' means. Does it mean questions as to how 'practical' it is don't matter? Does it mean doing so to save $20 a year still justifies doing it?

In fact, this thread was started with the question of 'Minimizing ATM withdrawal fees.' That has nothing to do with minimizing FX loading costs, only ATM usage fees. So if you are going to try and attempt to tell me what this thread is about, you should at least try to get that part right.

It is always the same on threads like this, people think they can answer someone's question, without knowing the person's circumstances and needs. I can suggest an answer on how to handle your funds when travelling but ONLY if I know what your individual circumstances are. That is all I am saying here repeatedly. I do not make foolish statements about something being a 'perfectly usable process', without knowing what will be 'perfectly usable' for the person asking. That is the mistake m3s and you also apparently, seem to not realize you are making.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> There's only a couple minor issues with the TD Bank NA (USA) setup I have encountered but otherwise it is a hidden gem that any Canadian who ever travels could use
> 
> 1) Transferring USD electronically to/from Canada requires a phone call to TD Crossborder call center. Any fees are reimbursed but I would prefer an online option, which they say is coming. Otherwise if you're savvy enough to come here looking for financial advice you can probably manage another 10 minutes to sign up for TransferWise or XE
> 
> ...


What does "a hidden gem that any Canadian who ever travels could use" mean to you m3s? 

First, it isn't 'hidden' from anyone. Second, what someone 'could' use is not the issue. The question is always what someone 'should' use if they want the best method for THEM.

Joebaba accuses me of 'personal bias'. I guess that means since I don't have such an account and see no need to have one, I must have a personal bias against such an account. I'm sure that makes sense to Joebaba even though it makes no sense to me whatsoever. He might as well accuse me of having a personal bias against Chevrolet since I don't have one of those either. It would seem to me that if anyone were to have a 'personal bias', it would be those who DO use a method. That would be you and Joebaba.

My argument with you m3s is your continued use of the term 'any Canadian'. You are saying this will work for 'any Canadian' as if the fact it will work, means it is worth doing. That is simply not the case. For most Canadians, it is not the best answer and implying it is, is simply misleading. You use words casually, without seeming to consider what they actually mean, 'any Canadian' and 'will work', in this case.

Words have a power of their own that when we communicate with others, we need to understand exists. If you write, 'any Canadian', MOST Canadians will read that as including them, when in fact you should have written, 'some Canadians' and then explained which Canadians it would be suitable for under what circumstances. You do not have to be deliberately trying to mislead anyone (I'm pretty sure you aren't unless we were to discover you work for TD USA) to in fact be misleading people. If uou write, 'will work', you are not simply saying it is a method that it is possible to use, you are implying it is a method that someone 'SHOULD' use as being beneficial to them.

Bottom line, the method you use will work for SOME Canadians in certain circumstances relevant to their travel. For most Canadians it will not be the best method to use for their travels. Being specific about who a method someone suggests would be applicable to, is a responsibility the person making the suggestion should be aware of and take care to make clear when they suggest something. Throwing words like, 'any Canadian' and 'will work' as if it is for everyone is NOT responsible posting of advice/suggestions.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I thought that M3s's comments were crystal clear. There is a difference between what is available and what course of action a person may take.

When we think of minimizing ATM withdrawal fees that includes, for us, the home bank ATM fee, the non home bank ATM fee (domestic or foreign) and the FX rate that used by our home bank in the ATM transaction. 

As an example, if we are using an ATM in Thailand our charges are $5. for our home bank, $8.50 for any Thai bank, and another 2.5 to 3 percent FX surcharge. Similar charges in a few other countries. These charges are what we consider to be the ATM charges associated with a transaction . We do not make a habit of splitting the atom or parsing other people's words.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I believe the TD Bank NA setup is a hidden gem for any Canadians who travel. I discovered it while living in US but it happens to be available to those who don't

1) Canadians can sign up for it (an american bank) online using a Canadian address

2) They have a crossborder call center number for Canadians who bank with their american affiliate

3) They can use Canadian credit history to approve their american credit card (does require a USA mailing address for credit reporting purposes)

4) They charge no foreign transaction fees on their debit and credit cards (extremely rare in Canada) Many Canadians already hold USDs or know how to norbit's gambit to get USD at a low cost. USDs are widely accepted both officially as legal tender and unofficially in many countries besides USA (CAD not so much)

5) All fees are waived with $100 min balance


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## Joebaba (Jan 31, 2017)

Longtimeago said:


> Where did you read that I think it doesn't exist? I understand it exists, it just isn't a good answer for most Canadians, even though available to them. Being available doesn't mean something is worth having. It works well for m3s simply because m3s has income in the US and does not need to transfer funds from a Canadian bank account. It may well work well for anyone in that same position. Is that most Canadians?
> 
> Why don't you try to explain to say a Canadian snowbirder spending 5 months per year in Florida, why a TD USA account and cards would be superior for them to using a Home Trust account as I described in my last post? Or do you not want to actually compare the TD USA suggestion to alternatives? Personal bias?
> 
> ...


Boy - I seem to have really hit a nerve there. You're doing some serious ranting.


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## Joebaba (Jan 31, 2017)

m3s said:


> I believe the TD Bank NA setup is a hidden gem for any Canadians who travel. I discovered it while living in US but it happens to be available to those who don't
> 
> 1) Canadians can sign up for it (an american bank) online using a Canadian address
> 
> ...


I agree 100%


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## seh (Nov 10, 2014)

m3s said:


> I believe the TD Bank NA setup is a hidden gem for any Canadians who travel. I discovered it while living in US but it happens to be available to those who don't
> 
> 1) Canadians can sign up for it (an american bank) online using a Canadian address
> 
> ...



How about #6) It's a way for Canadians to get deposit insurance (FDIC) on US funds. On the downside, it's another line item to remember if you have to do a CRA T1135 Foreign Income Verification Statement.


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## Joebaba (Jan 31, 2017)

I'm signing off from this thread. I think the point has been made.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> I believe the TD Bank NA setup is a hidden gem for any Canadians who travel. I discovered it while living in US but it happens to be available to those who don't
> 
> 1) Canadians can sign up for it (an american bank) online using a Canadian address
> 
> ...


Rather than simply reiterating the same old thing over and over, why not try and show WHY it is a good idea for ANY Canadian? Try comparing it to the example of a Home Trust card as an alternative. Show how it is a 'hidden gem' by comparison to that for ANY Canadian.

You make a statement but provide NO evidence whatsover to back up such a statement. You don't need to provide evidence that someone can DO it, you need to provide evidence that it is a good CHOICE for someone to do it. It's a good choice compared to say taking CAD cash in your pocket when you travel, but what about how good it is compared to other alternatives? In fact, for MOST travellers, a Home Trust card is likely to be a better choice. But I'm quite willing to see you try to refute that point rather than just repeating that people 'can do it'.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Rather than simply reiterating the same old thing over and over, why not try and show WHY it is a good idea for ANY Canadian? Try comparing it to the example of a Home Trust card as an alternative. Show how it is a 'hidden gem' by comparison to that for ANY Canadian.


Home Trust does not offer a debit card with 0 foreign transaction fees. TD Bank NA offers a debit card with 0 foreign exchange fees. As a bonus if you go that far, TD Bank NA also has better cash back credit card with 0 foreign transaction fees than Home Trust.




chilly said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm planning to travel for an extended time abroad starting next fall, and am hoping you can help me to figure out my best options to minimize the fees for ATM withdrawals while travelling.
> 
> ...


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> As a bonus if you go that far, TD Bank NA also has better cash back credit card with 0 foreign transaction fees than Home Trust.


OK you got my interest. What are the fees if any? What is the cashback? Have I missed anything (like roadside assistance)?

Would it also be better in Mexico and Europe?


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## faline (Feb 10, 2011)

I just got back from Peru where I withdrew money from my chequing account and from my VISA account. I also got a quote from a foreign exchange seller in Ottawa. 

for 700 Peruvian Soles:

Chequing account: $295 Canadian (including Peruvian ATM fee, but my TD account is all inclusive, so no withdrawl fee
VISA withdrawl: $310 (even though there was no Peru ATM fee - I withdrew from a teller, which I'd read online was supposed to be cheaper because no ATM fee)
Quote from Ottawa Foreign exchange: $309


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

That is exactly what we do when we get a new card or account to try. Sometimes the differences are quite surprising and sometimes they are not intuitive.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> OK you got my interest. What are the fees if any? What is the cashback? Have I missed anything (like roadside assistance)?
> 
> Would it also be better in Mexico and Europe?


No fees but you do need a US mailing address for the purpose of US credit reporting. The debit card with no foreign exchange fees does not require the US mailing address

Cash back is 1% / 2% grocery / 3% dining (nothing special, I use AMEX US for cash back) This card is for net positive foreign purchases (1% negates the small visa foreign exchange fee)



faline said:


> I just got back from Peru where I withdrew money from my chequing account and from my VISA account. I also got a quote from a foreign exchange seller in Ottawa.
> 
> for 700 Peruvian Soles:
> 
> ...


Was your Visa pre loaded with cash to avoid cash advance fees?

I have the TD "all inclusive account" and even when they advertised "preferred exchange rates" for "all inclusive account" it was always worse when compared to my free Tangerine debit card for foreign withdrawals.

Last year TD Canada raised their foreign exchange fees to 3.5% which is even higher than the standard 2.5% highway robbery.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> Last year TD Canada raised their foreign exchange fees to 3.5% which is even higher than the standard 2.5% highway robbery.


That really is disgusting. I can't believe we (the customers) let banks get away with these kinds of rates.

On the other hand, I'd say that the exchange rate through the TDDI brokerage interface is pretty competitive. For example, right now using the ideal rate according to XE, 1000 CAD is worth 745.50 USD. If I use TDDI to get a quote, they will convert to 734.59 USD. That's a fee of 1.5% which isn't too bad.

I'm not sure if that's a better rate due to Presidents Account status, though.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I use my TD Canada all inclusive CAD and USD accounts now as intermediaries between my Canadian brokerage accounts and my TD Bank US USD account. I have to call TD crossborder rep to transfer funds between TD Canada and TD Bank US

TD Bank US has a no foreign exchange fee debit card. No such debit card exists in Canada as far as I know. A Canadian could get USDs efficiently in their brokerage account. I have USD income that I can transfer to my Canadian brokerage account or Tangerine USD savings this way

I'm also looking into crypto currencies for this purpose. In the near future I think banks like TD Canada will get burned hard expecting to scam 3.5% in the age of crypto currencies and aging millennials


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

m3s said:


> I use my TD Canada all inclusive CAD and USD accounts now as intermediaries between my Canadian brokerage accounts and my TD Bank US USD account. I have to call TD crossborder rep to transfer funds between TD Canada and TD Bank US
> 
> TD Bank US has a no foreign exchange fee debit card. No such debit card exists in Canada as far as I know. A Canadian could get USDs efficiently in their brokerage account. I have USD income that I can transfer to my Canadian brokerage account or Tangerine USD savings this way
> 
> I'm also looking into crypto currencies for this purpose. In the near future I think banks like TD Canada will get burned hard expecting to scam 3.5% in the age of crypto currencies and aging millennials


I do something similar. I have a TD US account (Merritt Island FL branch)

I have US income which I can deposit into this bank. From there I wire transfer into my IB account. It works really well.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

dotnet_nerd said:


> I do something similar. I have a TD US account (Merritt Island FL branch)
> 
> I have US income which I can deposit into this bank. From there I wire transfer into my IB account. It works really well.


What is your wire transfer fee?


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

kcowan said:


> What is your wire transfer fee?


There's no charge by using 'bill pay'. Sorry I should have made that more clear.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

dotnet_nerd said:


> There's no charge by using 'bill pay'. Sorry I should have made that more clear.


Interesting

I called TD crossborder to have them wire it ($17.50 USD fee refunded by TD Canada) only to pull it into Questrade.

Bill pay might remove a few steps


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but it involves a TD Borderless account.

I saw something very surprising today. Yesterday at 4 pm, I deposited a US cheque drawn on a US bank at my local TD Canada Trust branch. Today I logged into my US bank and saw that the amount has already been withdrawn.

That's shockingly fast processing (under 24 hours) for a physical cheque to move $ between banks. The source bank was not TD, but another major bank. Easiest, fastest and cheapest $20K transfer I've ever made between countries.

No fee for cheques, of course, and TD allows me to deposit USD cheques into Borderless with no holds due to banking history and brokerage accounts.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Our first cheques deposited to BBVA Bancomer took 18 days to show up (w/d from TD in 5 days).

Now we use Intercam and the the record has been 3 days. Normally more like 5 days. But for sure, cross border transactions have improved. Our cheque for US$250k cleared in 3 days.


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

fireseeker said:


> Thank you, m3s.
> I have launched a test of this, per Keith's concerns. First, I added my new Home Trust CC to my account. Then I followed m3s's directions.
> The layout change is odd. But my new card was listed there and it did appear that I was able to change my conversion preference from PP to the CC.
> Next time I pay a US bill via PP, I will try to remember to check and update the thread. It could take a while ...


Update for Kcowan, m3s and anyone else interested:
I followed m3s's directions for instructing Paypal to bill in native currency. Then I attached my HT card.
I can confirm I am no longer paying PP to convert currency. I have bought items online and paid in USD and AUD with the billing handled by the HT card. No FX fee.
It's a small, but welcome, victory.


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