# Bought First Home, looking for general advice



## Kail (Feb 7, 2012)

Hi all,

The wife and I currently live in an 800 sq ft penthouse apartment paying $1320 a month all inclusive including 2 underground parking spots. The view is stellar and we live in a really good part of town. I am more than happy to keep renting but the wife won, I caved and now we're moving to Newmarket.

Providing everything goes as planned, we'll be the owners of a 1,500 sq ft 3 bed, 1.5 bath 2 story home. The basement is finished and quite nice so add another 800 sq ft to the total usable space.

What can we realistically expect to be paying for utilities? I've never had to pay for them before and can honestly say I'm terrible about turning off the lights (this will probably change once I get my hydro bill).

Heating - Natural Gas
Dryer - Natural Gas
Hot water tank is natural gas and a rental which we'll have to assume
Stove - Electric
Central Air Conditioning
Just the wife and I. 
I do laundry once a week on Sunday.
Never had a dishwasher but would probably use it 2-3x a week.
HTPC is on 24/7

Just looking for a ball park figure...we don't keep the apartment too warm in the winter (we wear hoodies rather than turn the heat up - and we don't even pay for it) but I'm guilty of living in an icebox during the summer.

I've budgeted $250 a month, am I way out of line here?

Any tips for keeping costs down / reducing monthly expenses? Our housing costs (mortgage, property tax & utilities) will come close to doubling what we currently pay for rent which is definitely scary for me.

Thanks!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Kail said:


> Hi all,
> 
> What can we realistically expect to be paying for utilities? I've never had to pay for them before and can honestly say I'm terrible about turning off the lights (this will probably change once I get my hydro bill).
> 
> ...


Depending on insulation in the walls, the outside winter temperature and the thermostat setting..expect to pay about
$100+ a month in winter months, and just the hwt and meter reading charge in the summer months..about $30.
Budget about $100 a month for the gas bill ($1200 a year and stay with Enbridge gas prices..DO NOT sign up with a
a gas marketer, because it will cost you a LOT MORE!
The hot water tank rental is $12 a month plus, depending on the type of tank, but it is added to your gas bill. 



> Stove - Electric
> Central Air Conditioning


Cooking/baking and A/C use depends on the amount of use. 
Stove/oven used for an hour or less, doesn't add that much to the electric bill compared to a furnace fan running a lot in winter. However putting a pot of water on to heat for 20-30 minutes is not as efficient as heating it up in a microwave for 3 minutes from an electricity consumption standpoint.

Central air can add substantially to your hydro bill in the hottest days of summer, but you need to set the room temp, so that it is bearable and not too cool. Use room fans to move the air around as much as possible ,
and you will be able to save on the hydro bill in summer.
Budget for about $100+ a month , it will be a bit more in summer and winter, but less in the spring and fall. 



> Just the wife and I.
> I do laundry once a week on Sunday.
> Use the lower rates after 7pm and on weekends to cut down on hydro bills for washing and drying clothes.
> I've budgeted $250 a month, am I way out of line here?


Hard to say, it depends on how frugal with electricity you will be. For me, living by myself in a 1300
sqft house, using two thermostats wired in parallel (one upstairs used strictly for cooling in the summer
and the other in the furnace room, set lower to heat the basement rooms at about 62F (17C) and
using a gas fireplace to heat my upstairs in the winter months, while the furnace runs only to keep
the water pipes downstairs from freezing AND using a efficient retrofit motor on the furnace fan..
$250 is just barely enough for me in the coldest winter months, Dec/Jan"Feb and maybe part of March
as well, 
but then in the spring.summer and fall it costs a lot less to heat the place, so it averages out about
less than $150 for energy in the warmer months. 




> Any tips for keeping costs down / reducing monthly expenses? Our housing costs (mortgage, property tax & utilities) will come close to doubling what we currently pay for rent which is definitely scary for me.


Don't forget home insurance which will be a lot more expensive than for an apartment/condo. 

1. WINTER MONTHS:Keep room temperatures as low as possible with furnace setting..use a programmable electric heater to heat specific rooms that you spend most of your time in.
Close off unused bedrooms or any rooms that you are currently not using to allow more heat in the rooms you are using.

2. Use the microwave as much as possible to heat water/food, and things that you can use the
microwave for.

3. Pull down window blinds at night to stop heat from escaping from windows.

4. In SUMMER MONTHS, use portable fans to supplement A/C, and set the A/C to barely tolerable
cool temp levels, (ie: don't set it at 70F..set it higher to 75F) and avoid running it all day during the highest hydro tiered rate. Run it sparingly to dehumidfy and use the fans for cooling.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I've found with my utility bills that the greater part of the bill consists of things like administrative fees, rate riders, municipal fees, line charges, and a whole bunch of other types of fees. The actual usage part of the bill is relatively minor. You probably need to budget about $50-75/utility just for these charges each month, then add your usage. So, in my opinion, your budget is a little light, and there's not a lot you can do to reduce your bills because consumption isn't the problem, it's the cash grab from governments and the corporation. 

Now, the amount of these fees varies by location, so your area may be better.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Just did the yearly total and we're at ~ $400/month/year for the expenses you've posted (we're electric water heater (set at low temp)/dryer, owned) and I'm thinking about equivalent housing (I'm not currently heating an unused upper floor). Like you, there were 2 of us over the past year, we're ok with cooler ~18C temps over the winter. Not relevant, but we currently have 1 boarder ... past records indicate cost/boarder is ~$100/month/year. We'll take in another, or two, when I get that bathroom finished ... :hopelessness: Oh yeah, being retired I'm here all day else the temp would be set a little lower during the day, the TV on less, ...

What you might do, which I started doing long long long ago when we had little kids, is set the hot water heater to low.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

While the rates and admin stuff is different out here, we spend about $270/mo on average for power, water, gas. We'll likely have higher power/gas bills in the winter, but lower power bills in the summer (no AC).
Having a natural gas dryer will probably save you some. Not that it's used that much, but NG is much cheaper than power on a heat content basis.
See if you can buy out that rental hot water tank. Such a waste of money.
Don't set the hot water tank too low or else you run the risk of leggionaire's disease.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

Don't forget to budget a lot more for your commute. Not sure where you are working now, but if it is downtown Toronto, the GO train and/or the increased cost of operating your car will be substantial! Hope you've done the commute during rush hour so you know what you are getting into as an extra time commitment. You can make more money, but good luck getting the commuting time back.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Just a Guy said:


> I've found with my utility bills that the greater part of the bill consists of things like administrative fees, rate riders, municipal fees, line charges, and a whole bunch of other types of fees. _The actual usage part of the bill is relatively minor_


OT: That's interesting, guess it depends on where you live ... I'm in Ottawa, comparing 2 hydro bills (maybe I'll do the gas bills later), period 32 days, summer, winter ... usage $65.08, other stuff $47.75 ... usage $122.98, other stuff $78.46. And fwiw, the greater the usage, the greater the other stuff ... just saying, reducing usage does help.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

FWIW,

Hydro I pay about $1,500 for the year.
Gas (Enbridge) I pay about $1,500 for the year.
On well and septic, but maintenance costs, so that is about $500 per year.

That's for a 1,500 sq. ft+ bungalow.


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## Kail (Feb 7, 2012)

Guban said:


> Don't forget to budget a lot more for your commute. Not sure where you are working now, but if it is downtown Toronto, the GO train and/or the increased cost of operating your car will be substantial! Hope you've done the commute during rush hour so you know what you are getting into as an extra time commitment. You can make more money, but good luck getting the commuting time back.


I was recently transferred to my company's Richmond Hill office and in doing so had to get a car. My monthly transportation cost has gone from $138 (metropass, working downtown) to roughly $700 (car payments, insurance & gas). It sucks, but what are you going to do. At least I don't have to take the subway anymore.

Thanks for all the information. I guess we'll really just need to see for ourselves. I wonder if we should even bother asking the sellers what they pay a month.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Call the utility companies and ask what the billing was for the house for the past year. That will give you a baseline of consumption. Your mileage will vary from that, of course.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Kail said:


> Hi all,
> Heating - Natural Gas
> Dryer - Natural Gas
> Hot water tank is natural gas and a rental which we'll have to assume
> ...


Have you included the water/sewage bill in your guesstimate? Mine's about $50/month/year of that $400/month/year average I posted earlier. And depending on where you are, miscellaneous services may be tacked onto that property tax bill ... here it's recycling (I think, could be something else,) which is a trivial amount.

PS: I'm not anal about this stuff ... my wife and I share the house expenses so I pay, record, and we settle up on a monthly basis. Interesting records to have though ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

rikk said:


> Have you included the water/sewage bill in your guesstimate? Mine's about $50/month/year of that $400/month/year average I posted earlier.* And depending on where you are, miscellaneous services may be tacked onto that property tax bill ... here it's recycling (I think, could be something else,) which is a trivial amount*.


Depending on the municipality there may be a fire hydrant supply charge tacked on. This is to pay for fire hydrant inspections and maintenance to make sure the hydrant will work in case of a fire.
In Ottawa, fire supply services are tacked onto the water/sewer bill as well , and are a percentage of the size of the meter and presume consumption.

For mine billed every two months: Fire Supply 62 dayx x $0.1033 ($6.40)


> *This charge is used to pay for the fire hydrant system in order to ensure that in the event of a fire there is adequate water flow to fire hydrants.* This charge applies if your property is within an area equipped with fire hydrants (most urban properties).
> 
> *The flat fee is calculated by first determining the City's full cost required to support adequate water flow to hydrants*. Then, each residential and commercial property is given a weighting factor according to their meter size. Finally, each individual property is billed a flat fee that represents their relative portion of the overall cost.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ This is news to me ... does every homeowner in Ottawa get billed a firehydrant charge on their water bill or is it just those who are near or have one on their property? Toronto homeowners get a garbage bin disposal charge on their water/sewage bill though.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ This is news to me ... d*oes every homeowner in Ottawa get billed a firehydrant charge on their water bill or is it just those who are near or have one on their property?* Toronto homeowners get a garbage bin disposal charge on their water/sewage bill though.





> This charge applies if your property is within an area equipped with fire hydrants (most urban properties).


It would seem then, that if there are fire hydrants on your street, there is a supply charge on your water bill.
If a fire should occur, it is nice to know that the pumper can hook up real fast and put out the fire as quickly
as possible.
Rural area homeowners OTOH, don't have that luxury. If they are not close to a river or source of water, then the only water available is what is brought in initially in the 5000 gallon tanker (fire) truck.

Once that is empty they have to go back for more water somewhere, so in rural areas without hydrants,
the chances of your home or barn burning down is much higher.
I don't mind paying the $3 a month for that protection. I hope I never have to use it.

My tax bill has the garbage/bin disposal fee listed as a separate item as Solid waste: special charge.
The recycle/green bin is included in the tax bill 4.25% of the total tax bill.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Yes, you explained quoted


> This charge applies if your property is within an area equipped with fire hydrants (most urban properties).


 earlier, I read too fast and missed it. I agree it's a tiny cost ... I wouldn't be surprised that it's a hidden or all included in the water rate for all Toronto homeowners. Our water & sewage bill is seperate from the property tax and lists the garbage collection charge based on your bin (gray) size (big, medium or small). The small one gets a rebate. the large one is like $300 a year - I have no idea what % of the water bill this represents as I pick the small (minimal garbage). I mostly use the recycling bin (big fan). Recycling (blue) and organic (green) bins have no charges (or so we think).


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Our water & sewage bill is seperate from the property tax and *lists the garbage collection charge based on your bin (gray) size (big, medium or small).* The small one gets a rebate. the large one is like $300 a year *Recycling (blue) and organic (green) bins have no charges (or so we think)*.


Every municipality have their own scheme when it comes to garbage collection.
In some municipalities (towns/rural), where there isn't a city garbage collection contract, you have to purchase tags for each garbage bag you put at the curb. In most cities, it's added to the tax bill. 

Recycling is another matter, since there was supposed to be... some "revenue generated" in recycled items such as paper, tin and glass..but certain plastics are not on a break even basis. 
Plasco, an industrial sized experiment in Ottawa, to turn garbage into electricity to sell back to the Hydro grid, has failed this year, gone into receivership. 

The green bin compostable collection scheme is costing Ottawa plenty, as somebody didn't do their homework determining how much compostable household garbage is really being collected
vs the amount that was going to be collected and recycled that the contract was based on.

Same with the blue box recyclables..there isn't enough money to be generated from the sale of some recyclables.



> Homeowners dutifully put out their glass, plastic, steel and aluminum packaging.
> But the only really valuable item … is the metal." “The trouble is that in the typical North American city’s solid waste stream (including trash and recyclables) aluminum and steel generally account for just 2% by weight. Glass sent to recycling facilities is heavier, making up 3% to 5% of typical city waste by weight. But although it demands more energy, *there isn’t much use for it. All the glass collected this year by Calgary’s new program ended up at the East Calgary Landfill, where it is piling up for want of a buyer.”*


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