# Car insurance -what the heck is going on?



## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm moving from downtown Toronto to North York, cutting my daily commuting down by 60 minutes a day. I average about 20,000 kms in the past and now will commute about 5000km. I have had one at fault accident a few years back. Insurance is about $3000 a year. I drive a modest car. I plan to ride my bicycle a few days a week to work now.

When I informed insurance (Pembridge/MIC) about this housing change they sent me a new policy with a $100 deduction... from my whole yearly policy! Seriously? Only 100 bucks after substantially cutting down the amount of driving I will be doing? In the past I drove all the way up Dufferin - probably one of the routes that has greatest potential for accidents in all of Toronto. I informed them that my new house has a garage where car will be kept. They said that that give me piece of mind, but wont affect my policy. I used to park on the street overnight for heavens sakes.

Anyone with insurance knowledge able to comment on this before I call them up? How do you think I should I proceed?

Thanks,


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

It's about location (or so they told me). When I moved from Thornhill to downtown Toronto my insurance decreased like 30%-40%.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Seems very, very high. We live in Calgary and have never paid more than $900. yr. on either car.


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## MasterCard (Aug 2, 2013)

See what TD Melloche Monex quotes you...I hear they're cheaper than most.


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## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

Saniokca said:


> It's about location (or so they told me). When I moved from Thornhill to downtown Toronto my insurance decreased like 30%-40%.


Oh wow. I knew Thornhill was a bit of a death-trap (just try to follow some road rules in the NoFrills plaza on Centre). I would never have thought that insurance would decrease by moving downtown.


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## OurBigFatWallet (Jan 20, 2014)

That does seem pretty high. We pay about $1,000 per year for one vehicle. Have you tried shopping around using Kanetix.ca?


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

North York has one of the highest MVA claim rate in GTA. There are also many staged accidents, just google it. There are drivers that pretend to let you turn first then hit you straight on. It is very well known among the insurers. So their rate is based on neighbourhood too, not just your own driving records.


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## Worm (Nov 18, 2012)

Your driving record will affect rates too. If you have a lot of tickets, your insurance is going to be higher.


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

We around $1200 per vehicle in Manitoba. It is public insurance so I assume rates are the same province wide. Not onerous but insurance is a toothache where ever you are.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Not certain if this is correct, but I was told some time ago by an agent that insurance rates, automobile and home, are based on postal code.


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## alingva (Aug 17, 2013)

insurance in ON is much more expensive than in AB


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## Sammi (Nov 12, 2013)

I was told that Brampton and North York is the most expensive car insurance. My auto insurance finally updated my location (even though I gave it to them 2 years ago) and it went from $155/month to $225/month. I stopped insuring my car outside of fire/theft and am selling my car.

Didn't need it anyways but still. 50% jump.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Sounds extremely high but like others have said your area must be driving a lot of that cost. Your driving record, mileage coverage and vehicle affect it of course. 

We have 3 cars - most expensive insurance $522, least is $453, so all 3 for about $1450. Next year I will be able to get the motorcycle under that policy and will cut the rate to less than half of current.

Our rates are significantly lower with RBC under a group policy because of our investment account.


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## motl (Mar 3, 2014)

Assuming you have a clean driving record, one of the biggest factors driving your price is your postal code. For example, someone moving from Kanata (just outside Ottawa) to downtown Ottawa will usually see a pretty large increase in premium. Use of vehicle, annual KMs, etc. all matter, but not nearly as much. Toronto is already very expensive compared to most of Ontario, but within the GTA itself you'll still have highs and lows based on postal code.

Source: I'm an insurance agent in ON.


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## NorthKC (Apr 1, 2013)

Insurance is definitely affected by postal code and city's history. Case in point, moving from the North to Southwestern Ontario 6 months ago (same sized cities) with no change in commute/mileage has resulted in a $600 hike a year due to a lot of speeders and people running red lights in this city. :mad2:


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

MasterCard said:


> See what TD Melloche Monex quotes you...I hear they're cheaper than most.


Not necessarily. TD Meloche Monnex has very good rates for certain professional groups, such as professional engineers. This is due to a business strategy of offering preferred rates to groups who have lower loss rates; not because all of their insurance rates are cheaper. But it can't hurt to get a quote.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Car insurance in Ontario is insane.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Insurance industry seems to be BIG in Canada (or Ontario at least). A Mafia.
Explore the possibility of immigrating to US.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Not necessarily. TD Meloche Monnex has very good rates for certain professional groups, such as professional engineers. This is due to a business strategy of offering preferred rates to groups who have lower loss rates; not because all of their insurance rates are cheaper. But it can't hurt to get a quote.


These professional group rates are often $300-500 cheaper for car insurance. Group plans for home & business / commercial insurance will save you a few more bucks as well.


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## HarrisJ4 (May 1, 2014)

You should contact Belairdirect, this is who I use for car insurance in Ontario. There rates are great and if you combine your car insurance policy with your home insurance policy, they will give you an extra discount too.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

I remember last year when Kathleen Wynne promised to lower car insurance in Ontario by 15%, I was hoping for the yearly increases to my car insurance to slow down a bit.

Just got the bill for my car insurance today. An increase of 19.1% and nothing has changed other than my car is a year older.

Anyone else experience a huge increase to car insurance this year?

ltr


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Ours went up about 8%. Again, no changes, tickets, accidents. This is year 2 of a new ins company.

We've switched insurance companies about every 2-3 years. Prices continue to rise, I get frustrated, find somewhere cheaper and switch. Repeat process continually.


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## DollaWine (Aug 4, 2015)

Car insurance rates are such BS... have you tried Belairdirect? They're the only ones who gave me a reasonable price. Bundle your home/tenant insurance too for a further discount.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

DollaWine said:


> Car insurance rates are such BS... have you tried Belairdirect? They're the only ones who gave me a reasonable price. Bundle your home/tenant insurance too for a further discount.



Yeah, maybe I'll get a few quotes.

ltr


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Not necessarily. TD Meloche Monnex has very good rates for certain professional groups, such as professional engineers. This is due to a business strategy of offering preferred rates to groups who have lower loss rates; not because all of their insurance rates are cheaper. But it can't hurt to get a quote.


I was with them and in one of those professional plans. We had no claims but had an awful time dealing with them. They increased our home insurance because we replaced a broken air conditioner with a heat pump. Seemed they had no clue that a heat pump was almost same thing as an air conditioner. They kept increasing the replacement value of our home. I did it myself using industry software and it came out much lower. When I complained, they had an external appraiser look at our home. In his report, he got the build date wrong (there had been an old cottage on the property at one time). When I pointed out the error, they said they could not change the appraisers report. His valuation on the home was lower than it had been previously, but because of the error, the rate was substantially highers because of the "apparent" age of the home.

Needless to say we dumped them. Then went with State Farm. Local agent- Great! But then they got sold to Desjardin. Argh - Liability only on our 98 car was higher than full insurance on our 2014 new vehicle. No explanation. So went to CAA , rates better and so far seems good. Local agent we can talk to makes a difference.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The cost of catastrophic insurance claims are rising every year. Insurance premiums will continue to rise.


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## WGZ (Feb 3, 2017)

I had a laughable experience with Belairdirect. They quoted me $30 higher than what I told them I'm currently paying with TD:MM and had the audacity to ask if I still wanted to take the quote and make the switch. What kind of single serving people are they hiring to represent their company? Why would someone willingly take a $30 increase per month for car insurance...? According to the advertising campaigns they were running at the time they said they could quote nearly $30 lower than what I'm currently paying, which is why I decided to even get a quote from them in the first place. I didn't expect the opposite. Even $10 lower per month and I would've made the switch and they would've gained a customer. I'm turned off from them for life. IDK, someone else may have better experience, worth a shot to get a quote from them.


Vehicles are getting a lot more expensive, nicer, etc...more people buying more expensive vehicles by way of near 10 year auto loans, and crashing them.

Options like a "panorama sunroof" and other styles where the entire roof of the vehicle is made of glass add potential for a costly ~5 grand repair bill, should it shatter.

Added complexity in styling/design language, and for example the Ford F150, which has sensors inside the enormous tail lights, full aluminum body, cameras and other sensors at every corner/bumper of the vehicle ... I can't imagine the repair bill on a lot of cars these days. I'll take Lexus and their current bold and IMO nice unique styling in things like the IS, GS, LC500, RC etc. I'm curious what the repair is, bumper replacement, labor required for restorative body work, etc. on one of those.



No surprise it goes up and up.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

WGZ said:


> No surprise it goes up and up.


I just feel that an increase of 19% is too high, so I think it would be wise to at least check if I can get a better deal. I also have my house with this company and will get that bill in the next week or so.

I'm wondering if it would be better to go to a broker instead of a specific company. The broker would look for the best deal I think?

ltr


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

You don't by chance have replacement coverage? That gets expensive as a (previously new) car ages.
Its worth reviewing coverage, riders, deductables and talking with the insurer. Then compare alternatives and jump ship if justified.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> You don't by chance have replacement coverage? That gets expensive as a (previously new) car ages.
> Its worth reviewing coverage, riders, deductables and talking with the insurer. Then compare alternatives and jump ship if justified.


_OnlyMyOpinion_, as always, you're a smart cookie. I got out last years details and compared every entry and you are quite correct. My car is now 3 years old and the "Five year New Vehicle cost replacement" rider went up 85.5%. If I remove that one entry, the new total cost this year would go down 4.3% from last year. 

I never thought about that before, but obviously that rider would continue to rise as the cost of replacing the car with a new vehicle would also rise.

I looked at the increase of each entry and some were modest and one other was quite high. The high one was Property Damage at 27.9%.

Liability = -6.5% (went down - weird)
Accident Benefit = +9.5%
Property Damage = +27.9%
Collision = +8.6%
Comprehensive = +9.0%
Accident One Free = +0%
5 Year New Vehicle Replace = +85.5%
Family Coverage = 0%

I guess it would be smart to remove that new vehicle rider. I don't even remember putting that on actually - but I'm old and stupid, so I forgive myself.

I wasn't too hopeful that getting quotes was going to result in lower numbers, since the insurance is through a group plan from my old place of work (they allow you to hold onto the group rate after retireing). I remember getting a quote about five years ago as a lark and it was quite a bit more than I was paying, so I assumed my rates were good.

Thanks for the heads up _OnlyMyOpinion_.

ltr


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We had Canada Direct. Then it got sold to Bel Air. At renewal a few things happened. First of all the proposed premium increased substantially. Second, the deductable increased from $500-$1000. This was not obvious when I first picked up the document. We voted with our feet. Went to TD Meloche. Thirty five percent less.

Just read an article about insurance in the UK. The findings are the existing homeowner's and auto owners subsidize new policies. The took the renewal details on home and auto policies. They then 'shopped' those same exact details back to the same insurance companies as new customers. Rates were as much a half less. This was consistent across several of the largest insurers, and across various areas in the country. The bottom line recommendation was to shop you policy every 2 years or so if you start to get unsubstantiated increases. I have to wonder if the Canadian market exhibits the same bias.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I have never had "Five year New Vehicle cost replacement" coverage, which sounds expensive.

Here in BC, with ICBC government insurance, I have purchased "collision" coverage on a few new vehicles. It pays market value (as determined by ICBC) of the vehicle at the time of loss. I always cancel collision coverage after 3 years because by then the vehicle is almost fully depreciated (at least in the eyes of the insurer), so that expensive collision coverage will net you very little. I have never put collision coverage on a used car. That's one reason for buying used - it's already largely depreciated and one might just as well "self-insure". 

Here in BC, with ICBC, it sets its rates not by postal code, but by "territory". There are 14 of them. Generally, the areas with more people and more traffic attract higher rates. 

When I lived in Vancouver, (Territory D - Lower Mainland), I had my vehicles rated as Territory Z, which refers to all areas outside British Columbia, including the other Canadian provinces and territories, and the entire United States. The premium for Territory Z was about the same as for Territory D., but as well as providing for coverage when I would be in the U.S. for a lot of the time, it had the advantage of excusing one from compliance with that pestilential AirCare program.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

ian said:


> Just read an article about insurance in the UK. The findings are the existing homeowner's and auto owners subsidize new policies. The took the renewal details on home and auto policies. They then 'shopped' those same exact details back to the same insurance companies as new customers. Rates were as much a half less. This was consistent across several of the largest insurers, and across various areas in the country. The bottom line recommendation was to shop you policy every 2 years or so if you start to get unsubstantiated increases. I have to wonder if the Canadian market exhibits the same bias.


It does indeed exhibit the same bias. We stayed with the same insurer on our principal residence for a number of years. A few years ago, the premium was $3,400 per year. Last year, $4,200 per year. This year $5,400. That did it. I was okay at around $4,000, but getting ready to self-insure if much more. So, I took a bit of time to shop around and renewed at $2,250.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

It was easier than ever to switch insurance this year. The new company retrieved our existing home and automobile policies from an online database and quote identical coverage. The saving was substantial. 

The new insurance company wanted a professional furnace safety inspection by an independent inspector. Cost for that was about $120.


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## Jaberwock (Aug 22, 2012)

I used to commute 55 kms to work. When I moved to a new house less than 5 km from work my car insurance rate went up.

How does that make sense?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We were shocked and pleasantly surprised when we moved from Vancouver to Calgary. Our car insurance went down from $1200. year (all discounts in) to $800. a year. The savings were increased even more because we had two vehicles. ICBC charged full wack for both vehicles even though I could only drive one at a time!
The extra car in Calgary added a few hundred dollars to the policy, not the $1000. that ICBC was charging for vehicle #2.

Coverages and useage for both vehicles were identical.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

ian said:


> We were shocked and pleasantly surprised when we moved from Vancouver to Calgary. Our car insurance went down from $1200. year (all discounts in) to $800. a year. The savings were increased even more because we had two vehicles. ICBC charged full wack for both vehicles even though I could only drive one at a time!
> The extra car in Calgary added a few hundred dollars to the policy, not the $1000. that ICBC was charging for vehicle #2.
> 
> Coverages and useage for both vehicles were identical.


One of my long-term pet peeves with ICBC. I have never got the rationale for the "full wack" (or maybe "whack"). The largest part of the annual premium is for the third-party liability coverage - damage you cause to others and their vehicles in an at-fault collision. As you say, you can only drive 'em one at a time, so having 10 cars does not raise the risk 10-fold. Yes, it does if you permit others to drive the 9 cars you are not driving. 

Years ago, I kept an old truck on a gulf island for my visits there every other weekend. That way I could walk on the ferry and not have to take my car and pay for it, as well as make a reservation for it. I had to pay full whack for that truck. I offered to have it a term of my insurance that the coverage on my 2 vehicles would apply only with me as driver, so that I could not lend the vehicles and there would be no additional liability exposure. Nope. No way. Too sensible and anti-gouging an idea. After awhile I calculated that I was driving my island truck no more than 500 miles a year. I was paying ICBC over $1/mile for the privilege. I gave up. Sure, I could afford it, but, as my father used to say, "I don't like being taken."

I have no quarrel with the notion that one should pay full whack for such things as theft, comprehensive or specified perils coverage for each vehicle, if that's what you want. If you have 10 cars, any one or more can be stolen, be hit by a falling tree, or whatever, so it fair to pay for those coverages for each, if you choose.

Another ICBC quirk has to do with miles driven. One pays for a car driven all or part way to work, although one is allowed a few days a month to commute to work under "pleasure use" coverage. But what is not recognized in premium pricing is that someone who drives a mile to work 4 days a week will pay more than someone who drives 500 miles a week for "pleasure".


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I had the misfortune to deal with ICBC and Canada Direct several years ago when my father passed away as the result of a stroke while driving.

He had ICBC and Canada Direct. The differences in dealing with the two, first as POA then as executor, was day and night. Canada Direct were fabulous to deal with. ICBC not so.

In fact, I actually had an argument with ICBC. I told them that I could no longer act on my father's behalf after his death (he was in a coma for two weeks) because the POA expired on his demise. The agent at ICBC kept disagreeing with this. I ended the conversation and did not bother with them again.

My only other issue with ICBC was when my car was damaged while parked. Hit and run. The ICBC adjuster in their New West claims centre said that I had done the damage. A New West police officer was present because it was reported as a hit and run.

The police officer disagreed and pointed out the pattern of scratches on the hood of my car to prove his point. The adjuster clearly knew little and did not want to know. Fortunately the police office intervened and ICBC did record it as it really was...a hit and run. Had it not been for the police officer I would have been hooped.


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## Tetsujin (Mar 17, 2016)

In Quebec my car insurance (only no house no other product) with Desjardins cost $709+tax for the first year then $813+tax for the third year with no bad driving record. I got the car loan with same financial entity. I engaged the new car replacement insurance with the dealership and not with Desjardins. 

I called La Capitale and they quoted me $1700+tax. Kanetix $1200. So, I think that I am very lucky. I have a friend who pays $700+tax with AllState I called them to get a quote, but they told me $1500. That friend has the house within the same contract.

I found a $980+tax with a online service that triggers my quote to many car insurance companies. I want to pay far less than that. 

I think I am paying the collision coverage for third party damages. Is there a way to shrink more the price? I think a fair price will be $500. Why are we (Canadians) paying more that???


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## balexis (Apr 4, 2009)

> I used to commute 55 kms to work. When I moved to a new house less than 5 km from work my car insurance rate went up.
> 
> How does that make sense?


Do you think the distance between your home and your work is the only factor that is considered by car insurance companies? What about car theft statistics in your old vs new neighborhood?


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

balexis said:


> Do you think the distance between your home and your work is the only factor that is considered by car insurance companies? What about car theft statistics in your old vs new neighborhood?





Many years I used to commute 10 KMs to work. Then bought a house further away, and my commute went to 50 KMs each way. When I told the insurance company, my rates went down 50%. I was shocked and said, sorry I said 50 KMs now, not 5. She said I know, and 50% reduction is about right. The city I used to live in, isn't only known for the highest accident and theft rates, but it's the worst city in Ontario for insurance fraud. Possibly in all of Canada too.


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## Tetsujin (Mar 17, 2016)

STech said:


> Many years I used to commute 10 KMs to work. Then bought a house further away, and my commute went to 50 KMs each way. When I told the insurance company, my rates went down 50%. I was shocked and said, sorry I said 50 KMs now, not 5. She said I know, and 50% reduction is about right. The city I used to live in, isn't only known for the highest accident and theft rates, but it's the worst city in Ontario for insurance fraud. Possibly in all of Canada too.


This is an astounding information!!!! Thanks for sharing. 

I hope if someone from Quebec who lives outside greater Montreal or far that area pays less than $700 or 800? I was planning to move far also and that would be awesome to discuss with the insurance company.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

WGZ said:


> Why would someone willingly take a $30 increase per month for car insurance...?


Probably people like me. I paid more just to get away from TD Meloche Monnex. I was prepared to pay more to deal with a company that had a local agent. And not some A-hole without a face at the end of a telephone line. Well not quite $30/month - that is hard to understand just for car insurance if everything else is equal.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

Tetsujin said:


> This is an astounding information!!!! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I hope if someone from Quebec who lives outside greater Montreal or far that area pays less than $700 or 800? I was planning to move far also and that would be awesome to discuss with the insurance company.


I don't know about Quebec, but according to THIS article, it can be as high as 65% difference in Ontario.

Spend some time on online brokers, like kanetix.ca and insurancehotline.ca and compare rates for different areas of the province.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

agent99 said:


> Probably people like me. I paid more just to get away from TD Meloche Monnex...


I don't imagine they miss you. I don't have any complaints with them. Especially when dealing with several major claims over the years. That is when you find out whether you have an insurance company worth keeping.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I don't imagine they miss you. I don't have any complaints with them. Especially when dealing with several major claims over the years. That is when you find out whether you have an inaurance company worth keeping.


Give the experience I had, can't imagine what things would have been like if I had had a claim! BTW, what the heck is an inaurance


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Sorry, decoder slipped a digit. Fixed up.


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