# Legal control over parents finances....can it be done without POA??



## thebomb (Feb 3, 2012)

So....a couple of times on this forum I have alluded to my inlaws having some serious financial issues. My FIL is dyslexic and has some learning disabilities, he spent his life working his tail off in the steel mills and has a great pension. His wife, my MIL has her own issues....dont even get me started. They make bad decision after bad decision when it relates to many things, however their finance mistakes are BAD. They have once again hit the wall and this time they are losing their house. They are 68 and 61. They would never in a million years voluntarily allow us to control their finances. HOWEVER they are more than ok to come and beg us for cash whenever they feel they need to....trust me they have no reservations doing so. They know we are doing well, I thought they might not come asking while I am on mat leave but that hasnt stopped them. I have looked online but I dont see a clear answer to my question. Is there a way or what would be involved in gaining control of their finances. I get some of you will say let them sink, I dont have a problem with that. I just fundamentally have a problem with the stress they cause us because of their stupidity and if it means we control their money to relieve the stress than it is worth it. Any thoughts?


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Well, you can try to have them declared incompetent, but forget about Christmas dinners if you go that route. 

Dyslexia is not reason enough to be declared incompetent, but if they have strokes or something, you can get control that way.

Look, your frustration (and more than a little contempt) is clear through your posting. Why don't you calm down, first. Then talk to them. They must be frightened and furious with themselves, too. 

I don't really understand what the urgency is here anyway - lots of people rent, and as long as the pension is in place, they will still have eating money.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

"Legal control over parents finances....can it be done without POA??"

What do you think?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

bomb don't u think your husband should deal with this, they are his parents?

it's too bad, you are so obviously dearly fond of the in-laws. Even so, i think it would be best to keep hands off.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Why do you have to throw in ''dyslexic" into the conversation?Only reason i say is because your fil did not ask to have it,it is no different than being born with a physical disability(not everybody is lucky enough to enter life in perfect health)
That is a tough situation to be sure,follow your husbands lead---i am not married but this comes with the vows of marriage unfortunately!?
Is there not other family members to have a town hall style meeting and maybe spread the burden around?or is your husband a only child?


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## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

The only way is through them. You can try to be nice and offer to coach them and look over their shoulder, hoping that by now they realize they have a problem. Get the result without the full control. Or if they come to you for money make it a condition of giving it to them. Other than that really all you can do is watch them do their thing (or cut them out of your life and stop watching) and decide whether or not to let them use you and your well-off status. As Wendi says, if he's got a pension they're not going to starve.


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## alingva (Aug 17, 2013)

what would happen if you do not give them money when they ask it next time?


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## DayTek (Sep 26, 2013)

I can sympathize with you @thebomb. Both my in-laws and my own parents are bad with money! 

My ILs are the kind of people who budget, but have no will power to stick to it; Then panic/complain when they don't have the money to cover basic bills. I can not begin to imagine how much money they have borrowed over their married lives...They are 57 and 54 years old, have rented their whole lives, and "saving" is completely foreign to them. My husband and I made a decision to not lend to them any more. If they come asking, the only handout we give them is advice. We have a really close relationship with them, so we do it tactfully and sincerely.

My parents are the kind of people who do not budget and feel if they pay their bills in full and make the minimum payments on credit, they are fine. They have the incomes to do this, but it won't last forever. They bought their house in 1989 for $100,000 and are _still_ paying a mortgage over $100,000 today...That is how addicted they are to credit. They just keep refinancing and have no equity. If they ever sell, they _might_ break even covering the mortgage. I've tried talking to them about money, but they don't want to hear it.

@thebomb, I understand your frustration. I wish I could control _both_ of my IL's and parent's finances. It is so hard seeing them both sink and all you can do is watch. Legally, I don't know of any control you can forcefully take...And even if you could, you're looking at a family rift. The only thing that is in your control is to stop letting them borrow money from you...And you and your husband definitely need to be on the same page about that. Offer them a conversation about their budget, letting them know that you won't pass any judgement on the situation they've gotten themselves into. People get themselves into situations like that every day...And they need guidance and advice, not bitterness from their family. If they don't take the advice and continue to shoot themselves in the foot, then all you can do is just love them and encourage them.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

+1
Be supportive and sympathetic. But make it clear that you have no spare cash to lend anyone. Tell them you are on a strict budget and that lending is not included.

And in this case lending = gifting


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

kcowan said:


> +1
> Be supportive and sympathetic. But make it clear that you have no spare cash to lend anyone. Tell them you are on a strict budget and that lending is not included.
> 
> And in this case lending = gifting


+1
This is the kindest way to go. Do not enable them further.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

kcowan said:


> But make it clear that you have no spare cash to lend anyone.


"All our money's tied up in 200 year non-callable bonds"? :biggrin:


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

thebomb said:


> ... HOWEVER they are more than ok to come and beg us for cash whenever they feel they need to....trust me they have no reservations doing so. ...Any thoughts?


They can ask, but you and your husband have to agree to say no. It's time for tough love.

But to answer your original question, no, you can't take over control of their finances. Astoundingly bad financial management is not grounds for having someone declared mentally incompetent.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I had a formerly bankrupt neighbour who constantly tried to put the bite on me. I finally said to him: "You need my help getting groceries and doing things around your place. Don't jeopardize that by asking me for money!" He respected that.

He also continued to smoke and drink 12 cans of beer every day. Also bought lottery tickets.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

thebomb said:


> HOWEVER they are more than ok to come and beg us for cash whenever they feel they need to....trust me they have no reservations doing so.


i might try "well, you have asked for money before so you clearly are having trouble managing your own cash, i will lend you XXX but only if we (you and your partner) sit down with you and HELP you understand why you keep getting stuck in a cash crunch" ... if they say no, then you have a solid reason to say "sorry, we aren't going to help"


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## thebomb (Feb 3, 2012)

Well ultimately sounds like I would need them declared incompetent, makes sense of course. Also doesnt sound like anyone who responded has had to deal with this in particular. We will be seeking legal advice shortly. Being declared incompetent may not be very difficult. 

Thanks


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Being declared incompetent can be very difficult. Making poor financial decisions will not be enough to deem that. They will both need to be assessed as being mentally incompetent and are either a danger to themselves or others. 

Usually a psychologically assessment will be required then you go though the legal portion. I believe someone then needs to be appointed as their 'gaurdians'. I am not sure the exact term. Essentially they will become your dependant.

Declaring someone incompetent is a very serious thing as they are no longer on control of themselves, and it is like they need to be taken care of as a minor would. 

If you think lending money is stressful, it is nothing compared to trying prove someone incompetent. 

We had investigated this as we have family members with aging that are having some mental issues, and not make great decisions. It is not financial based, though that is some of of decisions, but many things. They decided after looking into this and starting the process, it was better for them to take look at other alternatives.

I know this can be frustrating watching parents make poor decisions, but if you are trying maintain a relationship with less stress, trying to have them declared incompetent will not likely meet that objective. If you don't want to lend the money, just say no.


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

thebomb said:


> Well ultimately sounds like I would need them declared incompetent, makes sense of course. Also doesnt sound like anyone who responded has had to deal with this in particular. We will be seeking legal advice shortly. Being declared incompetent may not be very difficult.
> 
> Thanks


Wow wow wow... I can sense an attitude here. "No one here has had to deal with this particular situation?" You asked for an advice but did not like to hear what you have been told. So you criticize on all your helpers. :hopelessness: 

Yes, it is very difficult to do what you plan. Incompetence is often determined after a massive stroke or severe head injury. Just like you can try to offend with legal counsel, they can defend with their counsel and psychologist too. If your father-in-law was slow and dyslexic, so what? He likely had been that way all his life, before you married into the family. Now all of a sudden, his lifelong cognitive skills are not competent enough for you?

Also, even if one of your inlaw is successfully deemed incompetent, it's usually the other spouse that gets the control, not you! You will be at a lower rank. You want both of your inlaws declare incompetent at the same time, so you can takeover their finance... That sounds like mutiny and conspiracy for bad intention. :eek2:


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Dyslexic does not=slow,It has no barring on IQ or intelligence.It may show that way because the cognitive/comprehension of reading/writing/explaining/ shows that but its the same as thinking someone with a speech impediment can't think/process thoughts ect(which of course is false)
I know this is not about dyslexia but it is important to note!dyslexia on it's own does not =slow


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

donald said:


> Dyslexic does not=slow,It has no barring on IQ or intelligence.It may show that way because the cognitive/comprehension of reading/writing/explaining/ shows that but its the same as thinking someone with a speech impediment can't think/process thoughts ect(which of course is false)
> I know this is not about dyslexia but it is important to note!dyslexia on it's own does not =slow


I totally agree but the OP was implying it so it's her rationale for cognitive incapacity.


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## newtothegame (Jan 2, 2014)

To the OP, they are adults, and they can do as they see fit with their finances (or lack thereof).

I would give up on this plan. You claim they are going broke? Why would you want POA? It doesn't make any sense to me.

If they beg for money, say no. Just as their (lack of) finances aren't your problem, your finances aren't their problem.

Let them downsize if they are living in a place that they cannot afford.

This whole thread is silly. POA is to manage accumulated wealth of an individual that has clearly lost his/her's marbles, typically by a child. It is not to manage a bank account that is already at $0.00...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

bomb probably everyone in this thread "has had to deal with this."

there seems to be a lot more to this story than a mere matter of in-laws asking for money.

you've also told us that father-in-law worked a tough job in the steel mills all his life to retire to a good pension. FIL & MIL managed to raise up the man you fell in love with & married. These are positive characteristics. There are certainly in-laws who are far more difficult!

dyslexia, as others here keep pointing out, is not any kind of grounds for family interdiction.

bomb to put it a bit bluntly, you do sound somewhat on the cruel side. What is your husband doing in this story? he is their son & should be the primary care-giver. Is he with you in this unpleasant campaign to alienate & distance his parents? does he want to interdict & control them as you do?

i find myself wondering why you don't carry on with your adorable new tyke while planning to get back on the career as soon as you can. These are already 2 full-time jobs & pretty fabulous ones at that. Why not hand over responsibility for the in-laws to their son, ie your husband, while refusing to donate or lend one single penny.


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

In fact, my father did have a stroke, and could not even make change.

After I took over his POA, which his doctor recommended, I went to some trouble to make sure he was not humiliated and felt part of the process (for instance, he "helped" me pay the bills, and signed underneath my signature for important documents like his house being sold).

But then, I could do this because I knew he hadn't had a stroke to inconvenience me or tick me off.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

At 61 and 68 they should have their wills and POA done but this is something their son needs to deal with ,in 10-20 years you may not be his wife but he will always be their son.Unless they have severe impairments no Doctor will support your claim nor will any courts.Let them go bankrupt ,rent an apartment and live off their pensions and keep your nose out except ina supportive role to your husband.
I had POA for my brother who died 4 months ago and it is not a piece of cake when somebody has a terminal illness , I had to be there every day at the hospital because my brother's reply to every medical question was to ask my sister ,even if it was OK for the OT to take him for a walk.At the end the nurses would ask me if they could brush his teeth or could they keep him in diapers or should they try to take him to the bathroom.It is a big decision to take on POA because you are responsible for every single aspect of their life.
My husband and I would never leave it to one of our children until one of us die and I think most married couples think the same.The bank thought they were competent enough to give them a mortgage and he was able to work long enough to get a pension and that is not a easy task to do. My brother in law has dyslexia but he managed to get a job in the paint department at GM 30+ years ago ,can rebuild an engine and has built at least one house in his life time.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

My parents did POA's and Wills. In both cases I had to manage their affairs for a time, sell condos, change investments, etc. etc. Intimate knowledge of their financial affairs gained through managing via POA enabled me to complete Probate on my own vs. paying for a lawyer to do it. Same with title transfer on some real estate.

Looking back, the cost in terms of legal fees, emotional distress, and opportunity costs would have been significant had these simple, straightforward documents/vehicles not been in place.

Notwithstanding your parents or in law challenges, I would highly recommend that everyone have this is place for themselves and encourage their loved ones to do the same, where appropriate.


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## thebomb (Feb 3, 2012)

LOL...well clearly I have touched some sort of nerve. For the few that have indicated that I am claiming dyslexia is the main reason for this you just need to take it easy. That is cruel and I would NEVER go there. He is a wonderful man. Yes, there is alot more to this story than I have indicated here. Alot more. I do suppose I sound somewhat cruel but the reasons are many. I only dream of having great in laws, but not to be. Now the goal is for them to not end up homeless, which pension or not is very possible in their circumstances. I suppose we all offer advice coming from what we know and the situation we are in. In this case not willing to give you the whole background you are working with what you see I have posted here. Which clearly does not make a number of you happy.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

bomb it's not appropriate for you to instruct others who have commented here that they "need to take it easy." It is yourself who is out of line.

from the getgo this was obviously an iceberg story. Only a 10% tip shows.

the question is why are u posting here at all with this kind of nonsense tease? 

if your in-laws have the pension you say they do, they are not going to end up homeless. You'll notice the marked error in your sentence, where you malposition the word "pension," possibly meaning "position" instead.

if there are undisclosed but severe mental health issues, even then your attitude comes across as harsh, punishing & inappropriate. Many families struggle with such issues. There are professional associations that help families struggling with such issues. 

the issues are burdensome & families dealing with them often undergo emotional & even financial hardship. An online financial forum such as cmf is the last place in the world to discuss such issues imho, at least not until you have managed to deal with your own fury against your in-laws.


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Humble pie is my hero.:chuncky:


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Humble, you are absolutely right.

But don't forget, she is 'thebomb' - she can do whatever she likes.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I find it hard to understand that several of you are supporting HP's criticisms of thebomb, including her comment that it is not appropriate for thebomb to tell others to "take it easy," when HP has made some inappropriate comments herself, including calling the bomb "cruel." I did not find anything she said to be cruel; perhaps she didn't express her concerns very well, but the underlying feeling I got on reading her original post was that she is rather fond of at least her father-in-law, but is very concerned and resentful about the financial mess her in-laws get themselves into and is at her wit's end trying to figure out how to help them out without allowing them to drag her and her husband down with them. Having had in-laws who were much the same many years ago, perhaps I tend to be more sympathetic to thebomb's predicament.


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

So how is someone suppose to offer advice/pass judgement etc when the OP even says that 
"Yes, there is alot more to this story than I have indicated here. Alot more."

If you don't want to hear the answers /truth then don't ask the questions especially holding back information.


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## thebomb (Feb 3, 2012)

yyz said:


> So how is someone suppose to offer advice/pass judgement etc when the OP even says that
> "Yes, there is alot more to this story than I have indicated here. Alot more."
> 
> If you don't want to hear the answers /truth then don't ask the questions especially holding back information.


Well I had hoped for folks to not pass judgement but that ship has already sailed. I also think advice on" how to get control over finances" is a question that doesnt actually need much background info. Not sure what "truth" you are referring to?? Regardless, thanks Karen, you get it.


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

While you might not be able to control their finances,you and your husband definitely can control to what level you are willing (if any) to help them out.
You can't prevent bad decisions and my feeling is if they are still making them at this stage of life ,it's not going to stop.There isn't enough info here like do they have a mortgage on the house or what there financial problems are.Maybe they could reverse mortgage the house,but I get the feeling that isn't possible. It's a bad situation and hopefully you and your husband are both on the same side.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The criticism is unwarranted given we do not know the facts and there is no reason for the OP to provide any more facts in a personal situation. The bottom line is: 1) there is no way to get control of their finances, 2) the OP and her husband should not want to get control of their finances and all the legal obligations that come with that, and 3) while continuing to provide guidance when requested, stand firm on not providing any more financial support/intervention. They have to sink or swim on their own.


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