# First Rental Property experience - getting worse day by day..



## Wishful_Aspirations

Hello Everyone,

(Sorry for the length of this post, however thanks in advance to those who take the time to read through it and provides any feedback)

First off, I'd just like to introduce myself and say hello to everyone, and mention that this is a great forum.

I've been browsing through this site for the past few weeks and have been coming across a lot of really informative topics and discussions.

So I finally got around to registering this eve, and thought i'd seek some advice from some people who might be in the same boat as me.


Here's the situation:

- Bought my first rental property last Oct' 09 (With interest rates soo low and home prices on the rise, and I just happened to be in a situation where I was able to put a good amount down on a down-payment, it was difficult to resist entering this game)

- I was eager to get it rented relatively quickly, as I wasnt too keen on putting up with an extra mortgage on a vacant home (dont believe i'm unique with that at all..lol). So after meeting the types of potential tenants which were coming to visit the property through my ads on kijiji, craigslist, and viewit.ca, i wasnt too impressed. The ones who visited seemed hesitant to fill out the standard OREA rental application, and provide the standard credit reports etc.

- I then decided to list it through mls.ca and worked with my realtor to find a tenant. I know it was a pretty steep comission charge to pay (One full months rent to the brokerage) however i figured the quality of tenants i'd get would be of good quality - boy was i wrong..

- So, for those who are still reading this... here's where it gets interesting.
The couple that i rented it to looked good on paper. One credit report was provided - the boyfriends, and he had a good credit rating - and both were working for a few years at the same company. Therefore i decided to sign the lease with them.

- After the first month went by, they broke up.. and it was just the Mrs's that was residing there from that point on. She advised me that the set of post-dated cheques could no longer be used as the account was closed. After they split up, the second month she payed me cash in 3 installments throughout the month. However advised that she had new cheques on order, and would give them to me for the rest of the term.

- Each month that has gone by since then has been like that... i'm making an average of 3 - 4 trips a month to collect rent in cash.. and there's no indication that she'll get the cheques from her 'new account' for me any time soon. I really feel like i'm pulling teeth, by having to make repeated calls and follow ups etc.

- And just yesterday she said that she lost her job and is in the process of finding a new job... she'll try to have a payment for me next week (at that time it will already be 2 weeks late)...

- I'm now starting to realise that she hooked up with this guy to begin with simply for the purposes of using him to land a new rental property. Whereas her credit rating and probably soo weak. And she probably has a track record of taking advantage of landlords this way in the past, squeezing a few months free out of them, and then moving on...

- I'm 100% certain that it's nothing but headaches for me for the rest of the term of this lease. So, what realistic recourse and options do I have at my disposal? Ideally i'd like for her to vacate the property.

Thanks.


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## Cal

look up the ontario rental housing tribunal website....I think the form you are looking for is n4 or 11 maybee, going from memory on that one.

I personally would talk to the tenant, let them know that they are in arrears, paying after the 1st is not acceptable. If they need to get a loan from a family member to catch up, then that is what they have to do, otherwise they will have to give you a date in the near future that they will be out by. If they have a problem with any of that, then give them their paperwork for the notice of eviction.

Good Luck.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Thanks.

I was looking at the N4 form earlier as well, as it was mentioned in other similar posts.

However how much weight does this form carry realistically and practically?
I mean is this something she can just laugh off and put aside?
Is this something that the small claims courts will take seriously and rule an eviction date on her?


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## andrewf

Small claims won't evict her. Get the N4.


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## Berubeland

The only way to evict someone in Ontario is the use of the N-4 and use of the Landlord & Tenant Board. 

You can request post dated checks but if she doesn't give you any you're out of luck. 

I am a little concerned with your post because it shows an entire lack of understanding about tenants and the business of renting in general. First of all most tenants are not going to have perfect credit and great jobs if they did they would own their own home rather than renting. 

Secondly the OREA rental application is invasive and extremely long. It also doesn't even include most of what I like to see on an application. 

I like photocopies of ORIGINAL documents such as Driver's license or Health card and SIN card. 

Original documents for proof of income such as pay stub, or in case of direct deposit a print out of bank records. 

Credit checks are useful for determining length of occupancy at previous addresses, previous addresses and if people pay their bills. If someone has a string of previous addresses 4-5 months apart it is very likely that they are being evicted. 

Landlord checks are completely useless. 

Employment checks via the phone are completely useless. 

Due to privacy regulations no landlord or employer are allowed to tell you if they do or do not work/live there. It is highly problematic. 

Finally the best information I get about a tenant is in the showing. Evaluating the tenant is an art. Getting your questions answered without performing an interrogation is hard. I look for inconsistencies and small reveals. Keep in mind that 60% of all communication is non verbal and if you intuit that someone is lying they probably are. I go more by feeling then I look at the paperwork. 

In any case it doesn't sound like you have a terrible tenant on your hands. It does sound like she is struggling to pay and the place is no longer affordable for her. I suggest you have a talk with her and see if she would like out of her lease. She might be grateful. 

Further being in a situation like this does not really constitute being a bad tenant in my opinion. Life happens and making decisions like moving into a place then splitting up with a spouse/boyfriend or losing a job. These are tragic life events that can happen to anyone. 

Oh and by the way.... the guy who was on the lease that moved out and left Mrs. "Bad tenant" holding the bag on a lease she can't afford on her own. He is still legally responsible for 50% of the rent.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Agreed that life happens, and a certain degree of compassion is required (and was granted)
However hearing the repeated tales of why she isnt able to pay has a limit.

In regards to serving the N4, since i have limited exposure to this process, how much weight does it carry?
I mean, can she refuse to sign it, and if so is she still obliged to appear to any Landlord and Tenant Board hearing?

Furthermore, how does an individual forcefully get evicted if the ruling states that they are to vacate the property and they refuse to do so - is it done through the police?


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## Spidey

^ Fantastic advice.


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## Cal

If I recall, when you issue the N4, if they refuse to sign or are not home when you deliver it, you have to wait for an extra week or two to proceed with the next step. Again, I think this is on the Ontario Rental Housing Tribunal website.

It has been a long time since I have had to issue an N4. (Thank God) In my instance I spoke with the tenant, they too gave me a sob story, however, like Berubeland stated, the vibe I got was not convincing, so I issued the N4. I had bills to pay too. The tenant left the following weekend. And the place was not wrecked or anything. I had it rented out for the start of the next month.


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## Berubeland

Ok when you sign a lease and accept the initial funds and hand over the keys you are turning over "legal possession" of the property. This means that use of that space no longer belongs to you until the tenants turn "legal possession" back over to you by vacating or you get a court order that gives you back "legal possession" of the premises. 

There are limited reasons the court will issue an order to give you back "legal possession" one of which is non payment of rent. 

The process in Ontario that gives you back "legal possession" of your property starts with the N-4 found here. 

http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/en/Forms/STEL02_111310.html 

It is the only form you can use to start the process. She does not have to sign it. You need to serve it in an approved way, the easiest way is to deliver it straight into her mailbox. Then you fill out and sign the certificate of service found here. 

http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/en/Forms/STEL02_111348.html

She has 14 days to pay the arrears or you can file the N-4, certificate of service and the L-1 another form known as the application to evict a tenant for non-payment of rent and to collect the rent the tenant owes found here.

http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/en/Forms/STEL02_111309.html

Then you must either go to the Landlord & Tenant Board with the N-4, certificate of service and the L-1 at which time you will pay $170 and get a court date. I highly recommend going in person, the nice ladies at the front counter will let you know if you have any information missing or if your dates are wrong. If your dates are wrong you must start over with the N-4. I also recommend reading all the instructions on the Landlord & Tenant Board's website. Beside every form there are instructions to help filling out the form. 

When you go to file your application the Board will give you your application back stamped and with an additional page included called the notice of hearing. You must then file another certificate of service which you can fax back to the Board that you have delivered the notice of hearing and the L-1 application. You must write the file number on the second certificate of service. 

So court day comes along make sure you go!!! If she doesn't show up you will just be called at some point in the beginning of the process and the Adjudicator (Judge) will ask you if you know why she didn't show up. If she does show I highly recommend you use mediation where she may agree to leave or make out a payment plan to pay rent and her arrears. When you are done you will either have a mediated agreement a mediated order or a standard order. The standard order gives her an additional 11 days to pay and stay from the date it is issued which is typically a couple day after the court day.

In any case you will get a final date after which if she does not pay the rent you will bring a copy of the order and take it down to the Sheriff's office which in Toronto is located in probably the most inconvenient location ever... Bay Street across from the bus terminal. Parking is a problem. There you will get to pay $320-$380 depending on mileage. They will give you a form with a day to call in if she is still not gone. They will also send her a letter. Then if she is still not gone a few largish guys will come and tell her to take what she can carry and wait while a locksmith changes the locks. Then you must allow her to come and remove her belongings for 72 hours. 

At any time during this process she can pay the rent owing and she is allowed to stay. It will take at least 3 to 4 months from start to finish if you are prompt with all your forms and nothing else untowards happens. 

The point is that when you are embarking on this process the only thing you can control about the timeline is the issuing of the N-4. If you give it today or next month or the month after that when she owes even more rent all it does is add to your 4 month timeline. 

In your case because you are doing this the first time I suggest you serve the N-4 immediately if it goes beyond that hire a paralegal who is experienced in Landlord & Tenant Board matters and hire them. Don't waste your money on a lawyer for years now paralegals have been the main go to people for evictions. In fact many lawyers have very limited experience with these matters. They mostly deal with the higher courts. Pay attention to what the paralegal does and next time or the time after that once you have a little more experience you can tackle it yourself if you are decent at that kind of situation. If you cry at the drop of a hat or are likely to be angry and loud rather than cool and composed don't represent yourself.

If you are in the Toronto area pm me and I can give you the name and number of a good paralegal with 30 years experience. Due to the change in laws I can no longer perform evictions when the new rules came in I didn't qualify for grandfather status as a paralegal. I can only do evictions when I am the property manager. Truth be told I just don't like it


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## Berubeland

I forgot to say the easiest way to proceed is if she really cannot afford the place and it sounds like she can't, you can both sign the N-11 Agreement to terminate a tenancy found here.

http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/en/Forms/STEL02_111348.html


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## Berubeland

Oh and do put "Mr. I'm running out on my lease" that no longer lives there on the N-4 and all subsequent documents. HE IS LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE. 

Serve him as well with all the documents !!!

This will pressure her to leave sooner as he will also apply pressure and he may help her out as his name will also be ruined unless he pays up.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Great, thanks a lot for your detailed advice Berubeland. Much appreciated.

I'm going to try to get a hold of her as soon as possible and discuss the possibility of early termination of the lease - and proceed with the N11 form if it's mutually agreed upon from the onset.

Otherwise I'll proceed with the N4.

Will keep you posted should there be any other surprises =)


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## Dana

I feel for you. I have recently found myself in a similar situation (I asked for input in another thread). I hope that this first negative experience has not influenced you to give up on your landlording adventure. We have been doing this longer than you, and in general, we have always been very fortunate to have great tenants who pay in full, on time and take great care of their homes. I think like most things in life, the 80/20 rule applies - 80% of tenants are great and 20% of tenants will cause 80% of your landlording headaches.


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## Jungle

After all this eviction process is done, does the tenant have anything to lose? Like does it effect their credit rating or something?


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## Berubeland

Jungle it really sucks.... unfortunately the Privacy Act protects horrid tenants. There used to be a database called Rent Check that requested all the eviction cases from the Landlord & Tenant Board which used to be great. Since the Privacy Act came in they cannot get the information, they rely on submissions which is highly inaccurate. 

So there is no real way to find out if someone has ripped off a landlord even if they win at the Board. 

If you want to garanshee someone's wages or seize their bank account you need to take your order to small claims which takes a long time and cost more money. 

I recently found out that Transunion does not accept Orders to put on someone's credit report. I find this absolutely disgusting because of the number of landlords that are their clients. Equifax does however; if you have the person's SIN number you can submit it to Equifax. 

Alternatively you can get a collection agency and if they collect you get 65% or so of the outstanding balance. 

So yeah it is really horrible how these deadbeats are protected by the privacy act.


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## jacksonjohn83

Berubeland said:


> Oh and do put "Mr. I'm running out on my lease" that no longer lives there on the N-4 and all subsequent documents. HE IS LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE.
> 
> Serve him as well with all the documents !!!


So Mr ran off and didn't leave me his new address/contact. Mrs won't tell me where he is or maybe doesn't know. How do I find him so that I may serve him the notice/N4?

BTW, great forum and excellent advice. I am a 'wonna be' landlord and am trying to learn from experiences of others.


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## Jungle

Very interesting that you can put an order to Equifax for their credit report. I wonder how much debt a collection agency will go after? I'm guessing a few grand wouldn't cut it. 

Your posts are very detailed, you seem informative. But it's kinda scary reading all this, I don't know how people with multiple dwellings deal with this stuff on a regular basis.


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## Berubeland

People work the stats, even with no screening criteria in place and I have worked in building like these 90% of tenants will pay their rent. 

So if your primary concern is that the tenants pay their rent then most people will do this. 

In buildings that have practically no entrance requirements they have a very proactive legal department. Almost every building has a streamlined process for evicting tenants. 

For instance in the building I worked in, we would issue about 80 N-4's on the 5th, then proceed 14-15 days later to applications. By then we would have about 6-7 cases to proceed on and then at the end have 3-5 evictions per month. This was in a building with 400 suites. Still I can count on one hand the number of times that people were still there when the Sheriff came most people do leave before they actually come. 

As an interesting aside note..... I had to type each of those N-4's by hand because our rental promotions gave a rental discount which were lost retroactively when the person didn't pay the rent. Some of these discounts were over 200$ per month. For instance if the person had been there 6 months and got issued an N-4 I would have to look up the amount of their discount and calculate it and add it to the outstanding amount. The process was excruciating. Most building have a system where you walk up to the computer push a button and it spits out the N-4's.


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## Cal

jacksonjohn83 said:


> So Mr ran off and didn't leave me his new address/contact. Mrs won't tell me where he is or maybe doesn't know. How do I find him so that I may serve him the notice/N4?
> 
> BTW, great forum and excellent advice. I am a 'wonna be' landlord and am trying to learn from experiences of others.


When he filled out the forms didn't he have a contact #?

Other than that, how can you search out an individual? (facebook, 411, google?)


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## Berubeland

You should have employment information for a tenant.

I use email a lot as well... 

Cell phones are good and if you're really serious about hunting them down you'll call all their references and leave messages. 

In any case for the purposes of the Landlord & Tenant Board you serve it to the address. The point is he should know that he is responsible and the rent is not being paid. The whole idea of the exercise is to tell everyone involved that the rent is not paid and pressure them into paying up.


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## sprocket1200

yes, use his employment information. go into his work and loudly demand your payment...

forget all this filling out forms bullshit, put the pressure on him. PM me and we can discuss details. I am available to handle this if you wish...


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## Cal

Where are you at with the tenant now?


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## apprentice

Interesting read. I have no experience in this but am just wondering if there are any steps one could take before accepting a tenant. For instance, could you have provisions written into a rental contract or agreement that stipulate, for example, 'if full payment is not recieved by... the tenant forfiets his rights.' If this were signed by both parties could it be binding, or would the provincial or whatever governing body completely trump such a thing. Perhaps its common knowledge that this would be void. Just a thought. If you had such thing anyway, it may help persuade an unwanted tenant to compramise or at least listen to your requests.


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## Berubeland

@ Apprentice,

It is a common concept in law that you cannot contract out of the law.

Whatever lease you come up with has to comply with the law. You cannot get someone to give up their legal rights. Such a contract is unenforceable. 

Nice try thought.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Here's an update on the situation:

First off, thanks for the ongoing commentary and support from everyone.

And thanks Dana for your comment below, I'll try to refer to it as encouragement.



Dana said:


> I feel for you. I have recently found myself in a similar situation (I asked for input in another thread). I hope that this first negative experience has not influenced you to give up on your landlording adventure. We have been doing this longer than you, and in general, we have always been very fortunate to have great tenants who pay in full, on time and take great care of their homes. I think like most things in life, the 80/20 rule applies - 80% of tenants are great and 20% of tenants will cause 80% of your landlording headaches.




So, she has no working phone' for the past month, cell# disconnented and landline disconnected due to the fact that she's broke.

She's got a couple of male roomates living there now (without any prior notification to me of course) and she uses one of the dude's cell phone to contact me every now and then

I gave her the N4 a little over 2 weeks ago, one copy in her mail box the other one taped to the door. The next time I passed by the property she said that 'yupp, i got your notice... sorry things didnt work out... that you'll have the place back by the termination date indicated"..

So i leave the place relatively pleased.. I then prepare the N11 so that this agreement is in writing.. the next day she answers the door and says that she was sleeping and doesnt have any time to read the N11 and wont sign it until she's had time to review it thoroughly. I left by saying, it's pretty much to make what we agreed to verbally, and this would make it official. She agreed to sign and give it back to me once she reviewed.

Fine, then i let another couple of days go by, and I manage to reach her on the dude's cell phone... she then lies and says she never agreed to vacate the property, and that I'll have the full amount i requested on the due date/termination date.

Well guess what, the termination date on the N4 is tomorrow. 14 days + a couple of grace days have passed... and she calls me this evening to request if i could change the billing date, as she's got a new job now and going forward she'll pay me regularly on this new date. And lets just use up the last months rent now for the month i didnt pay you... lol

So I originally kinda agree being the newb i am... but in the back of my mind i totally could see the bs. and knew that she was just buying more time.. and there was no way I'd get the outstanding amount on her new desired payment date.

About half an hour later, I tried calling her back twice, no answer.. I left her a v/m and txt message indicating that i dont agree to the proposal, and that i am going to file the N4 tomorrow with the board.


So that's what im going to do.


All I got to say is that she is quite tenured at this game, and knows how to manipulate the pieces in her favour.
I on the other hand am such a nice person, who works in the systems user support field, and is always accustomed to being accomodating and making people happy & providing good customer service.... that's where the disconnect is i guess... i dont have enough experiencce at simply being a cold a$$hole... lol... I'm just soo used to giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they're honest....

Well, i guess experience is quickly cathing up here... lol


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Also, due to the way the waterbill is structured in the Region of Peel. she's trying to screw me on that too.

Eventhough the bill is on her name, If im not mistaken it's the landlord that needs to ensure that the payments get made

The util's are all on her name.. however i got an email from the city saying that she has an outstanding balance of nearly $150.00... that's gotta be about 4 or 5 months of water usage...

More things to look forward to... lol...


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## Berubeland

Dear Wishful,

Thanks for the update. Please follow through with you plans to file that N-4 and your first Certificate of service tomorrow. 

It will cost you 170$ and you have to fill out an additional form called the L-1. 

You will then have to serve the Notice of hearing. If you go into the office the ladies are very nice and will usually spot any mistakes. 

After you serve the notice of hearing you will have to fill out one more Certificate of service and fax it in. Don't forget to write in your case number on the upper right hand corner. Also make sure you keep a copy of everything especially this last Certificate of Service. These offices deal with tons of paperwork most of it without incident. But I have had it happen more than once that these faxed in Certificates of service do not arrive with the file and you have to show it to the Adjudicator. 

So anyways..... good luck and keep us posted. If you have any more questions I check in here pretty regularly or send me a PM and it comes directly to my phone.


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## Four Pillars

Wishful_Aspirations said:


> i dont have enough experiencce at simply being a cold a$$hole...


You're not being a cold a$$hole - you are trying to get rid of one.


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## the-royal-mail

What a con artist. Dump the loser and free up the apt for more responsible tenants. This woman needs a lesson in Life 101. From where things stand now she gets a failing grade. No further exceptions, no more Mr. Nice Guy. If you bend now you'll lose the process you already started and waste several more months and lose more sleep. It ends now.


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## Cal

'Fine, then i let another couple of days go by, and I manage to reach her on the dude's cell phone... she then lies and says she never agreed to vacate the property, and that I'll have the full amount i requested on the due date/termination date.'

Berubeland will know more about this, but even if the tenant does pay, I think you can still proceed with the N4 eviction as the rent was supposed to be paid on the 1st of the month as per your tenant lease.


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## Berubeland

Oh yes you can proceed 100% 

You could even file another form that the tenant promised to vacate by a certain date. 

I just wanted to keep it simple and go with the method that has the most chance of success.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

*bangs head against the wall*....

I took an hour and a half off from work this afternoon to file the N4 in person... they rejected the form.. minor dating issue...

so.. another 14 days in limbo...

*inhales deeply, closes eyes.... thinks happy thoughts...*

lol..


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## Berubeland

I am very grateful you found out now after 14 days rather than in front of the adjudicator over a month from now. 

It is extremely frustrating though.


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## the-royal-mail

wishful, I must admire you for the patience you have. I've been in your shoes before and was nowhere near as patient as you. I guess that makes you the better person. But get tough and evict them. No more leniency. We're past the time for games. You deserve better tenants.


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## Cal

I am sure they are planning to move out soon. By this point they are aware that you are fed up with their behavior and they also know that you are wise enough to do everything properly.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Well I'm certainly hoping that she'll just comply, pay up the arrears and vacate. However certain days i just wonder... i think they really got nothing to lose on this one and is just trying to milk each day.


Here's something i was pondering yesterday:

- Can the house be listed for sale while there are tenants living there? If a realtor was to place a lock box on the door, would they be obliged to open the door each time for showings? 

- Can I list the house for Sale or Rental simultaneously? And then based on what offer i get first i could choose accordingly?

- Are there any forms the tenants need to sign in order for the house to be listed while they are living there? I guess i'm trying to find out to see if there's a way they can block it all together

- Suppose the house gets sold, and she keeps up with her antics.. is she required by law to vacate the premises when the closing happens? Or could she just park herself there and block the closing of the deal?

Just some additional ideas i'm brainstorming at this point really.
thx.


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## Berubeland

Wishful_Aspirations said:


> Well I'm certainly hoping that she'll just comply, pay up the arrears and vacate. However certain days i just wonder... i think they really got nothing to lose on this one and is just trying to milk each day.
> 
> 
> Here's something i was pondering yesterday:
> 
> - Can the house be listed for sale while there are tenants living there? If a realtor was to place a lock box on the door, would they be obliged to open the door each time for showings?
> 
> Yes it can be listed for sale, she is supposed to open the door whenever people come. Will she do it? Unlikely.
> 
> - Can I list the house for Sale or Rental simultaneously? And then based on what offer i get first i could choose accordingly?
> 
> Nobody decent will rent your place if it is for sale or if they even think you might sell. Moving is a pain and good tenants want to stay for a while without worrying that they will have to move at an inconvenient time.
> 
> - Are there any forms the tenants need to sign in order for the house to be listed while they are living there? I guess i'm trying to find out to see if there's a way they can block it all together
> 
> No you do not require their permission... but they can keep the house from selling just by being dirty, smelly and unpleasant. They can even sit around the house in their underwear while the agent is showing if they want. Or like an apartment I just went to see yesterday they can not clean their cat litter box for months just to be pains in the a##
> 
> - Suppose the house gets sold, and she keeps up with her antics.. is she required by law to vacate the premises when the closing happens? Or could she just park herself there and block the closing of the deal?
> 
> Yes she is required to move but if she does not you are in big trouble. Then you have to go to the Tribunal and try to get a court date for a month from now. Then it will take a while for the Sheriff to come. All the while your closing date has gone by.....
> 
> Just some additional ideas i'm brainstorming at this point really.
> thx.


My recommendation is to get rid of her before even thinking of selling. She's a horrible tenant and even if you do sell you will lose thousands because you are passing on your problems to someone else. That someone else will charge you dearly to deal with your problem. Furthermore these people are few and far between.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

^
I agree completely on the recommendation. Just becoming aware of all options which could be exercised =)


Lets assume that the property actualy changes ownership, and she moves out just prior to closing. If by that time she's 3 or 4 months in arrears, can I still go after her for that amount, or does it get forfeited?


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## Soils4Peace

Wishful_Aspirations said:


> Also, due to the way the waterbill is structured in the Region of Peel. she's trying to screw me on that too.
> 
> Eventhough the bill is on her name, If im not mistaken it's the landlord that needs to ensure that the payments get made
> 
> The util's are all on her name.. however i got an email from the city saying that she has an outstanding balance of nearly $150.00... that's gotta be about 4 or 5 months of water usage...


My tenants let me with a $300 electricity and water bill, which is managed by my municipality. I paid it but they promised to keep tabs on them. One of their girlfriends must have put their name on it where they moved to next because neither the city nor I knew where they were. Then three years later I got a cheque for $300 from the city. They must have moved again, and one or the other had to pay up or they would not get electricity and water.


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## Berubeland

Wishful once you go to the Landlord & Tenant board you can get an Order and she will owe you the money. 

When I worked doing collections and evictions I submitted over $150,000 worth of old arrears. Historically we collected only 18% percent. 

Let me explain this to you in a way you will understand. 

Don't waste any time or energy trying to collect this money once she moves out, submit the Order to a collection agency and move on.

This is why in professionally managed buildings N-4's are sent out on the 5th at the latest. Every day you wait is more money out of your pocket.


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## Cal

Realistically you could hope for them to move out promptly. They rent money is not coming. Hopefully the property will be in good condition.

You could file through small claims court also to recoup your money, and if lucky get their wages garnished. But I don't know if it would be worth your time....they might even file for bankruptcy, then they are protected from all creditors..who knows.

Just get them out, and then get a good tenant. (Who pays you first and last!)


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## Potato

I would absolutely listen to Berubeland's advice that things will go far more smoothly (and you'll get more value for the house) if you sell it after they're gone and it's been cleaned up/staged. However, to answer your questions to the best of my ability....



Wishful_Aspirations said:


> Here's something i was pondering yesterday:
> 
> - Can the house be listed for sale while there are tenants living there? If a realtor was to place a lock box on the door, would they be obliged to open the door each time for showings?



Yep, you can sell your house whenever you want. However, they are only obliged to allow entry if they've already given their 60 day notice to leave (and even then, you or your representative has to give reasonable notice and can only show during daytime hours -- I'm pretty sure you can't put a lockbox on the door and let buyer's agents show on their own). If their lease is still in force, you have to give 24 hour written notice just like for an inspection.

If the lease is in effect, then it carries through to the new owner, and they need to understand that.



> - Can I list the house for Sale or Rental simultaneously? And then based on what offer i get first i could choose accordingly?


Yep, a few of the rentals I've looked at did this. Note though that it can work against you: potential tenants may worry that you're not a serious landlord (it was a concern for us when we saw a house for lease or sale), or are just trying to sucker them into a rent-to-own program with the lease offer (which happened); potential buyers may be turned off as well.



> - Are there any forms the tenants need to sign in order for the house to be listed while they are living there? I guess i'm trying to find out to see if there's a way they can block it all together


Nope, you can sell your house whenever you want... but it's their living quarters, and they don't have to keep it in showroom condition.



> - Suppose the house gets sold, and she keeps up with her antics.. is she required by law to vacate the premises when the closing happens? Or could she just park herself there and block the closing of the deal?


If the lease is still in force, then it transfers to the new owners, they can't just kick her out on closing day, and her being there doesn't affect the closing of the sale (unless the buyers make it a condition). They don't have any more power to remove her than you do -- they have to wait for the lease to run out, and then use the property for personal use, or evict her for non-payment.

That said, everything is negotiable. It's quite an ordeal to evict a tenant against their wishes... but you can always pay them to leave voluntarily. If my landlord told me he needed me out by May 31 so he could sell the house while I still have 10 months on my lease, I'd demand a very large payment to make that happen, to cover a few weeks off work, stress, direct moving expenses, etc... but if this tenant is having money trouble she may be willing to leave just for forgiving the back rent she owes. And if you just want to sell the house, and her being gone will get you a few tens of thousands more for it, well then it might be money well spent (as painful as it is to reward bad behaviour).

*Edit*: Oh, I see Berubeland did answer your questions, but hid them in the quote block. Hint, you can use [ quote ] and [ /quote ] to open and close the quotes so that your responses are separate from the OP. Anyway, it looks like the only place where our answers differ is whether the tenant has to move out on closing. I'd check into that answer with your lawyer then if you do list the house.


----------



## Berubeland

To be more specific about the leases part.

If she has a month to month lease you can give 60 day notice to get her to vacate for the purchaser's own use.

If she does have a lease she can only be asked to leave 60 days before the end of the term of her lease. The new buyer must assume them or you must buy them out. A settlement of $ the amount of the months they have left on the term of their lease is not unusual. 

I almost had this happen to me that a tenant did not leave upon closing. She had nowhere to go and did not leave her place until the day of. She took several bags of clothes with her and that's it. She had a 3 bedroom apartment on the main floor of a house and it was completely full of furniture and personal belongings. As soon as we became aware of the situation we had to scramble to find people to move all her crap out and rent a cube van to get rid of her stuff. 

As luck would have it the guy I was working for has signed a clause in the offer that he would render the property in clean condition. What a nightmare!!! To make it worse the buyer was extremely picky she had us go back and clean up under the deck where the tenant had left old beer cases and other various fun stuff. 

As for if she didn't leave... I had a situation last spring where the tenant did not move when they said they would. I had to apply to the Tribunal and it took over a month to get an Order to go to the sheriff. I even had the N-11 signed (that's the Agreement to terminate a tenancy) So based on that I estimate it would take over a month and a half to evict someone who chose to stay on after closing.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Hello everyone, here's an update on the situation:

I got a call from my tenant yesterday evening and she advised that she has one months rent, and that i can come by and pick it up.

I was a bit shocked that she actually did what she promised... and one day in advance on top of that..lol

When I got there we discussed the current situation, and she acknowledged that she's currently still one payment behind. I told her that I'd like to keep the last months rent to be used for the last month she'll be living there, and not allocate it to one of the months already passed.

So she said that she'll do her best to throw in an extra couple of hundred each month and make up for March's rent.

At this point I had given her the N4 on April 23rd, and put a termination date of May 10th. 

Her actions last night to me indicated that she'd geniunely like to pull out of this financial rut she's in. Although she could have handled a number of things a lot more responsibly - such as atleast keeping the lines of communication open... And the fact that I'm ready to take it to the board further motivated her to straighten things out.

Would you guys suggest that I proceed with filing the N4 on the 11th? or just give her a break and see if she sticks to her word during the next couple of weeks?

I'm kind of at a cross-road here... she know's she'll need to shape up so I'm considering to just chug along until the lease is over this November..
On the other side, all of the hours of aggravation and sleep already lost, make me want to go on the safer route and file the N4.

Please advise on what you'd recommend at this point in the situation.
thanks.


----------



## Taxsaver

I would advise you on either choice, but I would certainly advise you to involve any emotion whatsoever in your decision. Behave like a businessman who takes decisions from cold facts only.


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## Cal

When is the tenants next pay day?

If it is before the 10th...and you genuinely believe them...and I am assuming if they are 1 months rent behind (not sure how much)...and the May 1st rent cheque goes through ok....then I might wait until their payday and see if they cough up and extra $100 or something.

If the May 1st rent cheque bounces....well...you have your May 10th date already.


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## Berubeland

The N-4 you have given her is no longer good as she has paid up the money owing on it from my understanding. Or was the N-4 for 2 months and now she just owes one month? 

Do not allow her to use last month's rent for a current month. Ever.

Keep the pressure on. You need to move up the list of people to pay until you are #1. 

If she has voided the N-4 by paying it then serve a new one in the next few days. 

If she has not voided the N-4 by paying it then you can file it still. 

If you want to avoid the Landlord and Tenant Board (which is a good idea) I would suggest sitting down with her and writing out a payment plan. The plan should include the date you write it, the amounts you will be paid, when they will be paid and then you both sign it. Then give her a copy and you keep a copy. 

Then you must keep your N-4 valid during the period she owes you money so that no more arrears pile up. This is to protect yourself. 

Cheers 

P.S. i'm very happy you got paid.


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## dagman1

Evict her ASAP. It's going to be a recurring problem and you don't need the headache. If you don't look out for yourself, no one else will and you'll get burned. Better to cut your losses now.


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## Taxsaver

I am in no way involved, and yet I'm sick and tired of that situation! A friend of mine is sometimes involved in similar *games*. It's really games, because they're playing with your brain! I think everyone who has followed this thread will scream "Yessssssssss!" when that person is out for good.


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## Berubeland

Dagman & Taxsaver.... the problem is that Wishful cannot just tell her to get out !!!! Well actually she can tell her to get out but.... the tenant doesn't have to. 

Just like someone does not get their car repossessed the minute they miss a payment you cannot throw someone out on the street just because they miss a payment.


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## dagman1

I understand that. All I was saying is the first opportunity there is to evict the tenant because of non-payment should be capitalized on, whether or not the tenant is making a sincere effort to pay.


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## Berubeland

I happen to disagree with that dagman as a statement for the following reasons. 

Turnovers are expensive - usually it will cost you one month's vacancy, plus advertisment, credit checks, then if you hire an agency, one more month's rent, plus painting and cleaning at the very least to turn the suite around. 

Evictions are expensive - you're looking at 4 months lost rent plus $1000 for paralegal and court and sheriff costs.

Knowing this going into the situation if you can do anything to save the tenancy if they are decent in other respects then do so. 

Some of the things I do to help turn those people that are marginal around I do things like collect the rent when they get paid. I serve the notices as soon as possible and maintain a friendly demeanour. I stay in contact and go talk to them often. Tenants are people too. I send them to the rent bank, help them with social services etc. 

Furthermore the lost rent you lose when you go through an eviction is almost never recovered, every dollar I get is a bonus. 

Another thing to most people who have never attended an eviction would never know is that there is a lot of trauma involved both for the landlord and the tenant involved. Having been in these kinds of situations many times for my own conscience I do my best to minimize the impact of the bad situation that is happening. This involves being as kind as I can. 

Yes I have dealt with an awful lot of deadbeats and some truly horrible people. I have also dealt with a lot of single moms with kids and people with mental illness and lack of money management skills. In fact there are a lot more of those kind then the "professional" tenants. 

One lady I dealt with had all her accounts seized by Revenue Canada after the death of her spouse. She happened to be someone who usually made a very high contract rate. With her accounts seized and Revenue Canada breathing down her neck she found it very difficult to generate money. In any case it took 9 months for Revenue Canada to unseize her accounts and the landlord got every single penny. He allowed her to stay long after she was officially eligible for eviction on my advice. Of course there was a lot of communication and paperwork and proof involved. It was very difficult for him he had to pay his mortgage and utilities anyways. She had perfect credit before this happened to her. 

So not every situation is the same.


----------



## dagman1

I'm sure you have more experience with me on this -- I've never had to evict a tenant at my place. But personally, even for 4 months rent, I would evict. (To be honest, I would probably do a cost-benefit and possibly pay her to leave on some favourable terms, if the math worked out.)

It's not a charity: you don't pay your rent on time, you get evicted, simple as that. Obviously context is everything, and there are certain circumstances, such as someone falling on temporary hard times, that might justify temporary arrangements. But being a landlord doesn't pay enough to be worth the head-ache of a high-maintenance tenant. 

Having someone who leaves you alone unless you are actually needed, gives you post dated cheques that you cash every month and takes care of your place is worth whatever loss you might bear right now. The problem is you probably rushed into a tenant to quick in the first place, being to eager to rent it out. 

There should be plenty of decent renters in the GTA, especially financially minded ones, given the disparity between home prices and rental prices.


----------



## dagman1

I forgot to mention that whatever losses you bear can also be offset against income, so the loss isn't a straight loss.


----------



## Berubeland

Lets make it about the math. Lets go with a rental amount of $1000 and I'll use my prices for contractors. 

4 months = $4000
Legal fees = $1000
Paint & Repairs =$2000
Rental fee = $ 1000

One month of vacancy = $1000

Loss total = $9000

Or work with tenant cost = $0 
plus preventative legal = $1000

Retaining the tenant is much more cost effective. 

Yes tenants such as you describe are far superior however keep your eye on the prize. The prize is getting paid in full with minimal expenses.


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## dagman1

Still, you have to remember that you need to discount for taxes (since you offset income) and equity that went into the home on rent. Plus paint & repairs is generous and a rental fee is avoidable. As well, you can offer to forget about the last month or two rent if the tenant just vacates immediately or your tenant might leave prior to getting formally evicted.

But yes, it's still expensive and need to ask yourself if it's a loss you are willing to take. I never said it would be free.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Here's another update:

Tried contacting her a few times, left her a couple of text messages during the last couple of weeks.
Her v/m was full so I couldnt leave a message.

Never got a response from her. Although had I been a bit more relentless i probably could have touched base with her. But to be honest, i was pretty busy with work most of this month.. and I know that she knows I've been trying to contact her... any responsible individual would make an effort to follow up back with their landlord at their earliest convenience.

So based on that, i know she doesnt really give a damn. So the theory of her trying to turn things around can be scratched off at this point.. ;p

Based on the responses on this forum, and other people I've been guaging for input... I was going to try to sit down with her and get a payment plan in writing to make up for the outstanding rent. But it didnt look like a viable option

I filed my N4 with the board, which they finally accepted after a fair amount of nitpicking, and now have have a hearing scheduled for June 21st =)

Looking forward to it.
I'm going to represent myself, although I dont have much experience in courtrooms, i'm hoping that honesty and common sense will prevail here.

Any tips going forward on this next segment will be much appreciated

thanks.


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## Taxsaver

Wishful_Aspirations said:


> Here's another update:
> 
> Tried contacting her a few times, left her a couple of text messages during the last couple of weeks.
> Her v/m was full so I couldnt leave a message.
> 
> Never got a response from her. Although had I been a bit more relentless i probably could have touched base with her. But to be honest, i was pretty busy with work most of this month.. and I know that she knows I've been trying to contact her... any responsible individual would make an effort to follow up back with their landlord at their earliest convenience.
> 
> So based on that, i know she doesnt really give a damn. So the theory of her trying to turn things around can be scratched off at this point.. ;p
> 
> Based on the responses on this forum, and other people I've been guaging for input... I was going to try to sit down with her and get a payment plan in writing to make up for the outstanding rent. But it didnt look like a viable option
> 
> I filed my N4 with the board, which they finally accepted after a fair amount of nitpicking, and now have have a hearing scheduled for June 21st =)
> 
> Looking forward to it.
> I'm going to represent myself, although I dont have much experience in courtrooms, i'm hoping that honesty and common sense will prevail here.
> 
> Any tips going forward on this next segment will be much appreciated
> 
> thanks.


Good luck. Your hearing would be a Monday. Maybe one member here could go and help you out during the hearing?


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## Berubeland

I was considering it


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## Dana

Good luck at the hearing - I hope it goes in your favour! Please update us and let us know how it goes.


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## Taxsaver

Berubeland said:


> I was considering it


I was thinking about you when I made that comment.


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## Scottlandlord

Anyone being a landlord in Ontario really should take a look at 

www.ontariolandlord.ca

There are a lot of hard-nosed landlords there. And you can sign up for less than $50 (one time fee) to get access to a rental kit of documents and credit checks at a discounted price.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

Hi everyone, here’s an update on the situation:

So I went through with the hearing at the LTB, and since she was 1 month in arrears at the time of the hearing and has made payments for the last 2 months, the adjudicator was leaning towards her side for the start.
He advised the since she’s been there for less than a year, and she has made an effort to make up the payments for the last 2 months I can request a termination order however when he makes the final judgment (mailed in a couple of days) it may be in her favor.
I tried to point out that her track record was horrible, and has been nothing but hassles since January and I have been lenient and accommodating (I had my file ready with all sorts of examples and evidence).
However it was clear he wasn’t ready to hear me through.

He basically said that yes, the past can be indicative of what may happen in the future, however she’s only one month behind at this point, and the mission of the LTB is to make sure everyone has a roof over their head… blah blah blah… 

So at that point I requested to discuss the situation further with a mediator (we weren’t asked at the beginning of the process).
We made a new payment plan: She pays the regular rent on the 1st, and an additional payment on the 8th for the next 5 months to make up the previous months arrears including the $170.00 filing fee. 

If she deviates from this by one dollar or one day, I can come back to the LTB and request an eviction within 11 days.

That’s pretty much where we stand now, and I’m curious to see what happens on the 1st =)

On another note, I got an email from the Region of Peel wastewater operations, she’s currently in arrears of about $300.00 on her waterbill, and apparently it’s the landlord responsibility to make sure it gets paid… 

Never a dull moment with this one… lol


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## the-royal-mail

Thanks wishful for the update and for having started this thread. I appreciate you taking a tough stance as much as possible. This tenant doesn't have a clue how to manage money. She didn't adhere to the previous pmt plan. I am not optimistic that she'll adhere to the new one (I bet she's on the phone running to family now asking for $), but you do have recourse if she does not.

If nothing else, your thread is an excellent display of what can happen with renters. I think this should be mandatory reading for anyone considering buying property specifically to rent.

Sorry Berube. You must have a really thick skin to go through this on a regular basis.


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## Berubeland

Dear Royal, 

You do get a very thick skin and an impenetrable mask. I am actually a very compassionate person and what happened to me when I was doing this full time was that I eventually got physically very ill. I liked the law aspect of it and a part of me kind of enjoyed the sheer competitiveness of it but the bottom line of it is that it is very sad to put someone out on the street. 

Paralegals who don't work in the building don't know the people they are dealing with. I did. These are real people with real lives. It hurts. 

When you are dealing with a small landlord it gets much easier because there is a balance of compassion and emotion for both sides. When you are dealing with a corporate landlord there is nothing emotional to balance the whole deal. Cognitively you tell yourself I do this to keep the building safe to be able to keep housing people but when you do it continuously that fails to protect your soul from the misery of the tenants. 

It's like the difference between a guy who rips off a friend for $50 and someone who doesn't pay Rogers $50. As someone who does collections which is more satisfying? 

Here's another thing too as a small landlord the anger protects you from those feelings but I personally can't use anger every day all day long. i didn't realize that this job was making me ill until I quit it to go help small landlords. My Dr and my Surgeon both told me to quit my job once they heard what I did. I ignored them. Once I quit I got better, the subconscious mind is a funny thing.


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## Cal

Hopefully they will comply, and you will get your $. I wouldn't hold my breath long term though.

Even if they stiff you, they know you mean business. Good for you for pursuing this.


----------



## the-royal-mail

What typically happens at this stage is the tenant usually moves, stiffing the LL for final rent and leaving the place in a mess. Which LL has to clean at their expense.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

the-royal-mail said:


> Thanks wishful for the update and for having started this thread. I appreciate you taking a tough stance as much as possible. This tenant doesn't have a clue how to manage money. She didn't adhere to the previous pmt plan. I am not optimistic that she'll adhere to the new one (I bet she's on the phone running to family now asking for $), but you do have recourse if she does not.
> 
> If nothing else, your thread is an excellent display of what can happen with renters. I think this should be mandatory reading for anyone considering buying property specifically to rent.
> 
> Sorry Berube. You must have a really thick skin to go through this on a regular basis.


Well I certainly wished that I had considered the aspect of deadbeat tenants a bit more back when i was property shopping. Back then I was mostly preoccupied with finding the perfect property... everything else I thought would just fall into place.

Perhaps a coles notes version of this thread could be placed in a sticky somewhere =) ...I'd be happy to know that this ordeal could potentially be of benefit for someone, if it caused them to be just a bit more prudent.


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## Wishful_Aspirations

the-royal-mail said:


> What typically happens at this stage is the tenant usually moves, stiffing the LL for final rent and leaving the place in a mess. Which LL has to clean at their expense.


Interesting, you're not the first to tell me that actually.
A part of me actually hopes that this does happen though, so i dont have to deal with her anymore ;p

Agreed, I still don't see any long term prospects with this tenant... it's difficult to even imagine them adhering to this for more than a couple of months. I think the bottom line is that the property is out of their range and they just need to downsize to something more affortable.

I would also like to extend my thanks to Berubeland for all of the guidance and advice that was provided to reach this stage of the game.


----------



## the-royal-mail

Good idea. Mind you, I've often tried to provide this type of reality check for the type of poster who comes on here all starry-eyed and wanting to have "tenants pay our mortgage". And it's difficult to get the message across about how much of a nuisance these 20%ers really are. IMO the root cause is that society is not raising our children to be good money managers and responsible citizens. 16 years old and the girls are having babies and hopping on welfare, no schooling and then the burden to take care of them falls upon landlords and the gov't. Sad.


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## Dana

Thanks for the update, Wishful. It is too bad that the LTB is really there to support tenants and not landlords. There isn't a lot of support in being a landlord in Ontario. 

I hope she gets her crap together and pays you on time and in full. Otherwise, as the other posters have said, she'll probably move out (and give you the opportunity to find a more reliable tenant). Now that she knows you won't put up with her BS and she can't play you, she probably will move on. Some tenants prey on small landlords hoping that they can get away with irresponsibility. 

Good for you for standing up for your rights.


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## MoneyGal

WHOSE STREETS? OUR STREETS! WHOSE HOUSES? OUR HOUSES! DOWN WITH PRIVATE PROPERTY! SMASH THE THIN VENEER PROTECTING THE ILLUSION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY AND RELEASE IT INTO PUBLIC HANDS!

Sorry. I live in Toronto, and my streets were filled all weekend with these and similar chants. It IS hard to get support as a landlord in Ontario. I just came to work this morning through all the glass cleanup and graffiti removal trucks. I wonder how those landlords are feeling...

/OT rant


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## the-royal-mail

MoneyGal said:


> WHOSE STREETS? OUR STREETS! WHOSE HOUSES? OUR HOUSES! DOWN WITH PRIVATE PROPERTY! SMASH THE THIN VENEER PROTECTING THE ILLUSION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY AND RELEASE IT INTO PUBLIC HANDS!
> 
> Sorry. I live in Toronto, and my streets were filled all weekend with these and similar chants. It IS hard to get support as a landlord in Ontario. I just came to work this morning through all the glass cleanup and graffiti removal trucks. I wonder how those landlords are feeling...
> 
> /OT rant


Thank you for confirming the message that socialism is alive and well in this country, particularly in cities/cores. This is why I'm opposed to new taxes. Cost us all $1B to protect our leaders from these bums.


----------



## toronto

*Ontario Landlord Association*



Scottlandlord said:


> Anyone being a landlord in Ontario really should take a look at
> 
> www.ontariolandlord.ca
> 
> There are a lot of hard-nosed landlords there. And you can sign up for less than $50 (one time fee) to get access to a rental kit of documents and credit checks at a discounted price.


I am looking legal advice and helps, rental maintaining, deal with difficult tenants etc.. 

Is this organization a 'landlord self-organized' or some profit organization advertising their business by this side and making some money? 

tks.


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## ScubaJack

Wishful_Aspirations said:


> Interesting, you're not the first to tell me that actually.
> A part of me actually hopes that this does happen though, so i dont have to deal with her anymore ;p


So what ended up happening with your tenant and the back payments of water? Is there an update 7 months later?


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## kcowan

Good book review for a good book

I thought this should be required reading for would be property investors, especially the point about property managers.


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## Chris L

oh ****! 

Such an important thread and I missed it. NEVER evict! Ever, ever, ever.

The laws are stacked against you to the millionth degree.

You want someone out, play their game and OFFER THEM CASH. A wade of it, bills.

Offer $500 and tell them you have it in bills if they sign an early notice to vacate (it's a form) and as soon as their last item is out of the unit, you'll hand them the bills. Go $1000 if they'll leave overnight.

So sorry I missed this thread earlier. Abandon your legal attempt at eviction and pay the lady - but not until she signs the official notice and her last item is removed. CASH.

Would have saved you so many headaches. Wave whatever she owes you NOW. OFFER cash. Smile when you hand it over and thank her for the education you have received from this professional tenant.

Good luck, and trust me - this is 100% certain the cheapest and most stress free solution. There's no "right" and "wrong" here, it's just the cost of freeing yourself from unjust laws.


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## Chris L

Oh, old thread?


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## sags

I realize this is a thread about dealing with bad tenants............but let's not generalize about renters too much.

I am sure Berubeland, being the well experienced manager she is, could fill a book with stories about bad "landlords" as well.

I have a feeling that it is because of some bad landlords, these "unjust" laws came to exist.


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## Chris L

sags said:


> I realize this is a thread about dealing with bad tenants............but let's not generalize about renters too much.
> 
> I am sure Berubeland, being the well experienced manager she is, could fill a book with stories about bad "landlords" as well.
> 
> I have a feeling that it is because of some bad landlords, these "unjust" laws came to exist.



How does allowing a tenant to string a landlord along for months justify something the landlord did? 

The laws were created as sympathy for the age old belief that the landlord is somehow better off financially than the tenant and that therefore the tenant deserves special handling and care.


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## Berubeland

Actually Chris, the stringing along part swings both ways as an inevitable part of the legal process. In fact if you are a tenant with a negligent landlord, good luck "forcing" your landlord through legal action to fix the place. 

I had a situation with two rental I did in a duplex a few years ago. I got him top of the line tenants and they paid the rent all the way through. The owner was new and once winter began the tenants realized that the heating system did not work properly. Contractors were hired to look at the system and work was required to get the water flowing properly. The lower level tenant had holes in his ceiling for months. I got emailed and asked to intervene by the tenants. I arrange for contractors to go in (the owner said he didn't have anyone) neither the plumber or the drywall contractor got paid. Guess who got called one million times? Meanwhile the tenants were paying the huge costs because of the faulty furnace. 

At the end of the day both tenants vacated the minute they could. The owner asked me to rerent it and I declined. 

Another time, owners agreed to refinish some hardwood floors before the tenants moved in. They didn't. Then the tenants moved in and the owner was still saying the work would get done. I was there and the tenants signed the lease with the owner. Anyhow a year or so later, I called the owner to touch base and they screamed at me that I had got them bad tenants because the tenants took them to the Landlord & Tenant Board because they had not refinished the hardwood floors. 

One of the most frustrating things about being a manager is that landlords getting into the business have not even bothered to do one minute of research into the business.


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## andrewf

Rachelle, I think you'll find the problem is not that people are unwilling to do research when becoming landlord, but rather that the world is full of stupid people.


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## Chris L

andrewf said:


> Rachelle, I think you'll find the problem is not that people are unwilling to do research when becoming landlord, but rather that the world is full of stupid people.


I concur. If everyone was intelligent, no laws would be required.


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## the-royal-mail

Although we may have disagreed on some things in the past, I certainly appreciate berube's comments on topics such as this. They seem objective and well-informed to me, landlords certainly have lots of challenges but with the age of the average apt bldg these days they're basically just sitting back and collecting rent. OK so they'll vacuum and sweep the floor, take out the garbage. Big deal. There's a lot more to it than that.

I'm in the process of moving to a new apt bldg across town due to bothersome neighbors (someone woke me up with their stereo at 3AM, 4:20AM and 5:15AM today as well as threatened me last fall) and being very unresponsive. A lot of people are moving out. It just looks to me like they're letting the place go. See attached for just one issue of many. Totally rotten fire escape. Why did they let it get to this stage? Replace this ASAP! I pointed this out to them 6 months ago and their best answer was a threat to close off that exit for emergencies only, rather than to simply repair it.


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## Eclectic12

andrewf said:


> Rachelle, I think you'll find the problem is not that people are unwilling to do research when becoming landlord, but rather that the world is full of stupid people.


There's also the "my relative/friend/pipe dream said it was this way so don't bother me with the facts or ask me to research". Some of these same people are shrewd and/or keen on research but then have a blind spot.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12

Chris L said:


> I concur. If everyone was intelligent, no laws would be required.


Don't you mean if everyone was co-operative & trying for a win-win?

Some intelligent people have run scams or been pretty dense in their actions ...


Cheers


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## blin10

man, another reason to just buy up reits and get paid with dividends vs dealing with this mess


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## Mall Guy

+1 . . . and you can play in different segment . . . residential, commercial, industrial, and any number of subsets of each of those . . .


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