# Never Paying Debt



## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Hypothetical...

Mr X has 11 bank accounts.
Mr X has a credit card with 10 of the banks and no credit card with 1 of the banks.
One day, Mr X decides to withdraw the maximum amount of money from all the credit cards, and transfer all of it to the bank he has no credit card with, with no intention of ever paying off his ensuing debt.
Mr X is planning on leaving most of his money in that bank, withdrawing some every now and then when he needs it.

Mr X has a job, where he earns less than 20000 a year.
Mr X rents an apartment with his common law partner.
Mr X isn't going to be making any major purchases (house, car, etcetera).

What are all the financial consequences Mr X will incur?


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## tavogl (Oct 1, 2014)

ezpz said:


> Hypothetical...
> 
> Mr X has 11 bank accounts.
> Mr X has a credit card with 10 of the banks and no credit card with 1 of the banks.
> ...


Good luck (hypothetical)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Wage garnishes, criminal fraud charges.............best add leaving the country to the list of things to do.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

How do you get 10 credit cards on less than $20,000 income a year?


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

At that income Mr.X would only be getting chump change for credit but then I've known people that declared bankruptcy for 20,000.00 or 30,000.00 dollars which is nothing in my books.
The fact is the credit card companies would press charges for fraud.

Bankruptcy stay's as a part of your financial history long after discharge like forever even though it comes off the credit report history.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

A few years back I read that credit card companies in the US were targeting people that had just declared bankruptcy reason being they were considered low risk because of no debt LOL


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## treva84 (Dec 9, 2014)

ezpz said:


> Hypothetical...
> 
> Mr X has 11 bank accounts.
> Mr X has a credit card with 10 of the banks and no credit card with 1 of the banks.
> ...


So, what happens when Mr. X runs out of all the credit card money he withdrew from the previous 10 CC's? Surely that won't last a lifetime.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

and what about when the collection agencies start tracking down Mr. X like a pack of bloodhounds. Does Mr. X really want to spend the rest of his life running from those scumbags. They have less ethics then he does.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

sags said:


> Wage garnishes, criminal fraud charges.............best add leaving the country to the list of things to do.


How do you know they can garnish one's wages and press charges?
How long could one get by before they begin garnishing and pressing charges?
How much could they garnish from Mr X, what sort of charges could they press, and what would be the consequences of being convicted of these charges?
What if Mr X gave the money to a friend to keep for him, or what if he hid it somewhere, what then?
Could they ever come after Mr X's common law partner?


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

RCB said:


> How do you get 10 credit cards on less than $20,000 income a year?


How much do you think one could get?


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Daniel A. said:


> At that income Mr.X would only be getting chump change for credit but then I've known people that declared bankruptcy for 20,000.00 or 30,000.00 dollars which is nothing in my books.
> The fact is the credit card companies would press charges for fraud.
> 
> Bankruptcy stay's as a part of your financial history long after discharge like forever even though it comes off the credit report history.


What if Mr X hid the money somewhere, or gave it to someone, who kept it in their bank account?
How would they, the credit card companies, ever know?
What charges would they press and what're the potential consequences of being convicted?


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

This has to be one of the dumbest threads ever....are we not here to make smarter financial decisions????


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

lonewolf said:


> A few years back I read that credit card companies in the US were targeting people that had just declared bankruptcy reason being they were considered low risk because of no debt LOL


Mr X is Canadian, that kind of crap doesn't fly in Canada, does it?
Canadians are protected upon declaring bankruptcy, aren't they?


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

treva84 said:


> So, what happens when Mr. X runs out of all the credit card money he withdrew from the previous 10 CC's? Surely that won't last a lifetime.


If Mr X runs out of money, he'll declare bankruptcy.
Mr X is planning on making the money last for a long time, so he and his partner can live comfortably, which entails working a little less, buying things they need, buying some things they want, but nothing too expensive.
He may put some aside for investing purposes, stocks and such, to see if he can break even or even or even get ahead.
If he were to get way ahead, he may even pay the debt off.
When he runs out of money, he'll declare bankruptcy.
Mr X wants to know all the potential ramifications in between the time he withdraws all the money from his credit cards and the time he declares bankruptcy.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

So what would most likely happen here is that the cc companies would try to collect from Mr X. Assuming he tells them he has no money and cannot pay, they will update a credit bureau and see all the other cc's are at their max limits and also in arrears. They will continue to try to collect for a short period of time and again assume Mr X tells them he is on a limited income, barely putting food on table and he cannot pay, but if he had money, he would. 
At that point most cc companies would write off the balance and assign to collection agency. The collection agency would start harassing him. They may or may not sue under small claims court. 
If they don't, they will intermittently harrass Mr X for the next 6 years until statute of limitations runs out. They are hoping for a change of circumstances or a morsel of info that would lead them to a reasonable conclusion they eould get some money if they then sued.
If they get judgement, they will file a garnishee order against wages. 
If they find out about bank 11, they will file an order to size bank account.

What would not happen would be charges of fraud by the cc companies. First it would be very hard to prove unless very blatent and MrX left a wide open paper trail. Banks and cc companies almost never pursue this avenue as they don't want the publicity they forced someone into jail over an unpaid debt (yes the media can twist it this way) and someone in jail cannot pay. Especially over small credit card amounts.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

OptsyEagle said:


> and what about when the collection agencies start tracking down Mr. X like a pack of bloodhounds. Does Mr. X really want to spend the rest of his life running from those scumbags. They have less ethics then he does.


Mr X would like to know all the tactics they'll use against him to make him pay, please and thank you.


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## treva84 (Dec 9, 2014)

ezpz said:


> If Mr X runs out of money, he'll declare bankruptcy.
> Mr X is planning on making the money last for a long time, so he and his partner can live comfortably, which entails working a little less, buying things they need, buying some things they want, but nothing too expensive.
> He may put some aside for investing purposes, stocks and such, to see if he can break even or even or even get ahead.
> If he were to get way ahead, he may even pay the debt off.
> ...


What's the point in attempting to buy appreciating assets (stocks) if Mr. X is just going to turn around and declare bankruptcy? Once Mr. X does that, then what? He'll be older, used to a limited cushy lifestyle on other peoples dime, and all of a sudden he'll have to work more and harder to maintain his same lifestyle.

Also, if Mr. X's financial plan involves maxing credit and then avoiding paying it back, how good of a job is Mr. X going to do limiting his expenses and making the money last? Also, how is MR. X going to pay the debt back when the interest rates on most CCs are ~ 20%? I don't think Mr. X is going to get ahead with this plan. It's a plan to essentially defer financial responsibility today by creating worse problems for the future.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Mr X better get used to the idea of living in Costa or some similar place. The ONLY way to stiff the banks and cc companies with that debt is to leave the country and burn your pass port and you will have to hold it all in physical cash. If its in any institution, they can get it electronically. Banks and countries have bilateral agreements with each other to help hunt down fraudsters. 

However, some assets in bankruptcy are harder to get, like your principle residence. The courts usually wont put you on the street to take your house.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

treva84 said:


> It's a plan to essentially defer financial responsibility today by creating worse problems for the future.


Like our governments.

Like I said in another thread, our govts dont care about debt so why should we?


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## djkelly (Feb 18, 2016)

Mr X will not have enough money to live on for very long.
Mr X will have ruined his credit rating and will never be able to get a mortgage or rent from anyone reputable.
Mr X will have to declare bankruptcy eventually.
Mr X will have his assets seized by court order.
If Mr X gave the money to someone else he'd eventually be charged with tax evasion.
Mr X can probably expect to go to prison if he stays so focused on not repaying his debts.
Mr X would have a much easier go of it if he just got a job and wasn't so damn lazy.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

jollybear said:


> This has to be one of the dumbest threads ever....are we not here to make smarter financial decisions????


Dumb or not, I think it just plain wrong and mildly offensive to do what ezpz appears to have done, namely, to sign up here for the purpose of seeking tips on how to defraud (or how to avoid the consequences of defrauding) a bank or anyone else. His intent is plainly criminal and no one here should be seen to engage in counselling, as that term is used in ss. 21 and 22 of the Criminal Code.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

ezpz said:


> Mr X would like to know all the tactics they'll use against him to make him pay, please and thank you.


The legal ones or the illegal ones?

One reported illegal ones was to show up at the debtor's door at 3am, pound on the door while yelling out the details of the debt until giving up. Just before leaving, the debt info was posted on the debtor's door for the neighbours to read.

Another illegal one was to call everyone with the same last name in the area the debtor was suspected to be living in.


One of the legal tactics is to call within set hours, once a day, seven days a week.


Cheers


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A working person's immoral bankruptcy is a business owner's wise strategic business decision. 

_There are strange things done in the midnight sun, by the men who moil for gold; _


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

twa2w said:


> What would not happen would be charges of fraud by the cc companies. First it would be very hard to prove unless very blatent and MrX left a wide open paper trail. Banks and cc companies almost never pursue this avenue as they don't want the publicity they forced someone into jail over an unpaid debt (yes the media can twist it this way) and someone in jail cannot pay. Especially over small credit card amounts.


By posting questions here, even under the guise of 'hypothetically speaking', a paper trail is created. Wouldn't be hard to convince a judge of malicious intent and premeditated planning in a fraud case. Tracing this thread back to you isn't hard, there's people that specialize in that. Unclear whether the banks would go to those lengths over what is likely to be a small amount. Probably wouldn't be able to get much in combined credit as the CC companies would see a pattern of lots of applications, which sets off flags for them (for the underlying reasons that you are proposing).


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

ezpz said:


> What if Mr X hid the money somewhere, or gave it to someone, who kept it in their bank account?
> How would they, the credit card companies, ever know?...


It doesn't matter what Mr. X did with the money. The Credit Card companies have a record that he made the cash withdrawals; that he never paid off the balances; and the credit card contract he agreed to making him responsible for the debt. Collection agencies will go after him for whatever assets they can get their hands on. He can perhaps escape repayment by declaring personal bankruptcy, but it will still ruin his credit history for a long, long time. Criminal charges? As others have said, that depends on whether the scheme is so blatant it can be proved to have been deliberate fraud (and also whether credit card companies decide to make an example of him "pour encourager les autres").

I agree this is the dumbest thread in a long time.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

The OP, if he times the withdrawals over several months can argue they were for living expenses. Or to pay off personal debts. Not a big deal.
CC companies are limited as to info they can share so unlikely they would catch on to his scheme. Likely debt would be written off after lots of harrassment. If sued, then bankruptcy but not declaring assets under a bankruptcy is very serious to a trustee and if they found out, they would likely turn over to police. But by then money may be gone so wouldn't have to declare.
Yes of course credit is screwed for a number of years either way.
While I agree this is morally wrong, I assumed the OP was doing this a mental exercise only. Many years ago as a young employee at a bank, we would sit around at parties and plan how to get away with an internal bank robbery and get away with it, or structure false loans or whatever. No intention of ever doing it. 
Although one guy I knew got caught on his way to the airport about 10 years later. A whole whack of faked loans and money sent out of the country so you never know what is behind this.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

twa2w said:


> So what would most likely happen here is that the cc companies would try to collect from Mr X. Assuming he tells them he has no money and cannot pay, they will update a credit bureau and see all the other cc's are at their max limits and also in arrears. They will continue to try to collect for a short period of time and again assume Mr X tells them he is on a limited income, barely putting food on table and he cannot pay, but if he had money, he would.
> At that point most cc companies would write off the balance and assign to collection agency. The collection agency would start harassing him. They may or may not sue under small claims court.
> If they don't, they will intermittently harrass Mr X for the next 6 years until statute of limitations runs out. They are hoping for a change of circumstances or a morsel of info that would lead them to a reasonable conclusion they eould get some money if they then sued.
> If they get judgement, they will file a garnishee order against wages.
> ...


Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

Mr X was also wondering, how long roughly before the CC companies assign Mr X to a collection agency, and do CC companies ever sue their debtors (directly)?

What if the most expensive thing Mr X owned was say, a cheap car he used to get to/from work or, a nice, new computer.
What if he paid for everything in cash, and he made well under 20000 dollars a year?
Could they still sue him?
If so what's the likelihood?

Can the collection agency legally search his home in search of assets, or the police on their behalf?

Do you have any idea what the maximum penalty for this sort of 'fraud' is, or where one could find such information?

Will the debt automatically be cancelled after 6 years, even if he doesn't declare bankruptcy?

Is there any way bad credit can be erased without declaring bankruptcy or repaying debts?


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

http://bankruptcy-canada.com/how-to-file-bankruptcy-canada/


Home Bankruptcy BlogPersonal Bankruptcy Considering Bankruptcy? 7 Things To Think Through
Considering Bankruptcy? 7 Things To Think Through
08 Sep 2014 Category: Personal Bankruptcy Leave a comment	

Considering bankruptcy. Should I file bankruptcy?Roughly ½ of 1% of the Canadian population files a consumer proposal or declares bankruptcy each year. In real numbers we’re talking 125,000 people and roughly 110,000 of those file a consumer proposal or a bankruptcy for the first time. That got me wondering how people learn about consumer proposals and personal bankruptcy, and the laws that govern them. It’s not likely you are going to ask your family or friends if they have ever filed although we know 1 out 6 either have or will file at some point in their life. It’s just not something people are typically willing to talk about, and share advice on.

If you are considering filing bankruptcy or a consumer proposal, here are some issues you may want to think through and discuss with a licensed bankruptcy trustee.
#1 – The Objective Behind Filing For Bankruptcy

Bankruptcy laws are designed to give the honest, but unfortunate debtor, a fresh financial start. This phrase appears quite frequently on government websites and in general advertising for licensed trustees in bankruptcy. You won’t see it in credit counselling or debt consultant ads. Here’s what it means: bankruptcy laws are designed to give Canadians relief from their debts. The premise is that something has gone wrong (unfortunate debtors) and you need a fresh start. You need to be honest in your dealings in order for the laws to work. That means disclosing all of your debts, all of the things that you own, and frankly describing what you think went wrong.
#2 – Surplus Income Rules

The cost to file for bankruptcy is based on the size and total income of your household. The government has set minimum income levels to maintain a reasonable standard of living in Canada (they are called the Surplus Income Rules and can be found in Directive 11r). If you are living at or below the standard for the number of people in your household then your bankruptcy will likely cost around $1,800. This is the government accepted usual cost to file for bankruptcy – you may be able to negotiate a lower fee if you have extremely low income. If your income is more than $200 over the government standard then you will have to make additional payments into your bankruptcy equal to 50% of the amount you are over the standard.
#3 – How Long You Will Be Bankrupt

The length of your bankruptcy is also based on your household size and total income. If you are declaring bankruptcy for the first time and your total household income is at or below the government standard for the number of people living with you, your bankruptcy should run for 9 months. If your total household income is more than $200 over the government standard then it will run for 21 months. The payments discussed in point 2 will run for the full 21 months so this can make a huge difference in the cost of your bankruptcy.
#4 – You Assign Certain Assets to Your Bankruptcy Trustee

In addition to whatever income payments you may be required to make, when you file for bankruptcy you “assign” (which means sign over) the things that you own so that they may be sold and turned into cash to be given to the people you owe. This sounds onerous, but you are allowed to keep personal items, furnishings, tools used to earn an income, RRSPs, even cars – each province has established “provincial exemptions” which are things you are allowed to keep when you file for bankruptcy.

Make sure you understand which, if any, of the things you own are going to be seized and sold if you file for bankruptcy. Too many times I have spoken to people that didn’t realize they would lose their savings, or tax refunds, or other things until they have already filed. (The truth is that most people that file for bankruptcy have already cashed out any savings or investments that they may have had in order to pay down their debt so it is quite uncommon to “lose” something when you file, but it is important that you understand exactly how this part of the law works).
#5 – Potential Legal Penalties and Consequences

If you are not “honest” filing for bankruptcy can get you into a lot of trouble. Here is a list of things that the Court considers less than “honest”:

Failing to tell your trustee about all of your debts
Failing to tell your trustee about all of the things that you own
Misrepresenting your living situation (number of people living in your household, total income coming in to the household)
Failing to tell your trustee about all of your income
Selling/transferring ownership of things that you own just before you file
Maxing out your credit cards, lines of credit and other debts before you file

If the Bankruptcy Court decides you have been less than “honest” they can Order your bankruptcy to be extended, for you to pay more money into your bankruptcy, or the Court may even decide to cancel your bankruptcy altogether if they feel you have abused the process.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

How are offences discovered?

Licensed Insolvency
Trustee (LIT)

Learn about the roles and responsibilities of Licensed Insolvency Trustees

The Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy (OSB) identifies possible offences through its detection programs or through complaints received from creditors, Licensed Insolvency Trustees (LITs) or the public. Learn more about the rights and responsibilities of creditors, LITs and the OSB

When the OSB has reason to believe that an offence has been committed, it sends the file to one of its three special investigation units. The investigation units work closely with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP). In some cases, files are transferred to the RCMP.
Can I report offences?

If you suspect fraudulent activities in connection with a bankruptcy file, contact the OSB at the following toll-free number: 1-877-376-9902. Your comments or complaints will be registered and reviewed by a bankruptcy analyst, who will conduct any necessary verifications or inquiries.
What are the penalties?

Penalties are determined on a case-by-case basis. Below are summaries of some cases of abuse and fraud, as well as penalties imposed by the Court.

Consult the list of criminal/penal sentences rendered since 2010

Criminal/penal case
Court No.: 540-73-000367-104
OSB No.: 41-927326

Background

An individual used credit cards, lines of credit and other sources of financing to obtain cash advances and to buy jewellery, home electronics and a car. He resold the home electronics and car before they had been paid for and without informing the institution that financed the purchases. When he filed for bankruptcy, he had debts totalling $293,000, with most of the debt accumulated in the year before filing for bankruptcy.

Summary of offences of the bankruptFootnote 2

The bankrupt committed fraud.

Court decision

The bankrupt pleaded guilty to 11 counts of fraud under the Criminal Code and was sentenced to 20 months of imprisonment followed by two years of probation.


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## treva84 (Dec 9, 2014)

tygrus said:


> Like our governments.
> 
> Like I said in another thread, our govts dont care about debt so why should we?


Fair point!


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

What X would like to know now is, at what point exactly does fraud enter the picture, as well as, are there different sorts of fraud, and what're the potential penalties?
Is it fraud to withdraw all your money from all your credit cards simultaneously?
Or does it become fraud only after you missed your first minimum payment?
Or does it become fraud only after you've missed several payments?
Perhaps it's the intent that makes it fraud, whether you borrowed money with no intention of paying it back, but how can they prove you had no intention of ever repaying it?

I'm sure it's fraud to tell the Credit Companies/Collection Agencies you don't have money when you do have money, right?
But what if you tell them nothing, what if every time they harass you, you say nothing and immediately hang up, what then?
Or, what if you tell them you have most or some of the money, but're attempting to turn it into more money, so you can pay them back, what then?
I guess they'll try to sue you for the money then, since they don't trust you with it, because you didn't make the minimum payments, but what if you tell them nothing, can they use legal action to force you to disclose your assets?
I suppose that's what they'll do, if they can't find your assets, they'll force you to disclose them, and then either you tell them yes, I have them, in which case they'll sue you for them, or you tell them no, I don't have them, which means you'll have committed fraud if indeed you do have them.
Am I right, is that how it works?


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

"...no intention of ever paying off his ensuing debt."

How would you feel if somebody owed you lots of money and never intended to pay it back? 

Of course there are financial consequences


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

My Own Advisor said:


> "...no intention of ever paying off his ensuing debt."
> 
> How would you feel if somebody owed you lots of money and never intended to pay it back?
> 
> Of course there are financial consequences


I'd feel pretty good if 99% of people paid me back and then some, and only 1% didn't pay me back, and I was filthy rich.
How would you feel if you were born poor through no fault of your own, and the cost of living goes up and up, while wages stagnate?
How would you feel, if you were struggling to make it, you're forced to take out a loan, and then end up struggling to pay it + compounding interest for years?
Or everyone encourages you to take out a student loan, so you do, and then you fall ill, or there's few jobs available in your field, so you can never repay it, never get ahead?
How do they sleep at night?
Pretty cushy I hear.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

"Born poor" as you put it is one challenging circumstance. No argument. The intention to be fraudulent is totally another.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

There's man's law, which is often corrupt, and then there's nature's law, which is pure.
Things have a way of balancing themselves out overtime.
It's like karma, gross inequities in wealth beget cheats and thieves.
If you want to get rid of them, either you can build more prisons and hire more guards, or you can be more charitable and philanthropic with your wealth, and stop flaunting and overpricing goods.
Obesity causes disease, and there's such a thing as material/monetary obesity.


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## treva84 (Dec 9, 2014)

ezpz said:


> There's man's law, which is often corrupt, and then there's nature's law, which is pure.
> Things have a way of balancing themselves out overtime.
> It's like karma, gross inequities in wealth beget cheats and thieves.
> If you want to get rid of them, either you can build more prisons and hire more guards, or you can be more charitable and philanthropic with your wealth, and stop flaunting and overpricing goods.
> Obesity causes disease, and there's such a thing as material/monetary obesity.


Consider the karma of becoming a cheat or a thieve - it's just going to drive the divide between you / Mr. X and the man even larger, but the little guy always loses worse. 

Canada has ok social mobility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility) - could be worse if you lived in the US or the UK. My opinion is that being born poor isn't an excuse to cheat and defraud other people. Also, if you want success, you won't get there by ripping other people off. At some point you'll have to stop playing the victim, get on that horse and take control of your life.


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## Emjay85 (Nov 9, 2014)

ezpz said:


> I'd feel pretty good if 99% of people paid me back and then some, and only 1% didn't pay me back, and I was filthy rich.
> How would you feel if you were born poor through no fault of your own, and the cost of living goes up and up, while wages stagnate?
> How would you feel, if you were struggling to make it, you're forced to take out a loan, and then end up struggling to pay it + compounding interest for years?
> Or everyone encourages you to take out a student loan, so you do, and then you fall ill, or there's few jobs available in your field, so you can never repay it, never get ahead?
> ...


Never are you forced to take out a loan. People always have choices, be in what they spend their money on and what they take in school. If you take out major student loans to take a program that few jobs are available, than shame on you for not doing your due diligence on the career and where it will get you in the future. Falling ill and other factors that are beyond your control, such as where and to whom you are born, are ones to be dealt with in a different manner.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

The barbarians at the gate are a force of nature, like a raging river.
They can build a dam for now, or divert the river, but there's always a few cracks, and it's only a matter of time before the entire edifice collapses under the weight of their greed.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

There is no excuse to being poor in canada except for pure laziness. You have state funded healthcare and education and employment insurance and some of the most generous benefits in the world. All designed to give you a leg up in the world and give you a buffer if you fail. What you choose to do with it after that is your own problem. 

If you cant find work in your field, you probably didnt research it enough. There are two choices, retrain or move to where there are jobs. Or take something lesser paying in your area and make it work. But planning some major default and fraud strategy because you think you were dealt a bad hand is a poor strategy.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Emjay85 said:


> Never are you forced to take out a loan. People always have choices, be in what they spend their money on and what they take in school. If you take out major student loans to take a program that few jobs are available, than shame on you for not doing your due diligence on the career and where it will get you in the future. Falling ill and other factors that are beyond your control, such as where and to whom you are born, are ones to be dealt with in a different manner.


Forced is a funny word.
Life is always more/less a combination of internal and external factors.
While circumstances can't make us do anything of themselves, they can severely limit our options, and sometimes we may have to choose between the lesser of two evils.
Furthermore, so much of our motivation is subconscious, instinctive and irrational.
Sometimes we can be compelled by circumstances to do things we know we'll probably end up regretting.

Job markets fluctuate, it's not always predictable.
Poor people don't often have the time, energy or resources to make informed decisions the way rich people often have.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

What happened in your life to make you think of this scheme?


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

tygrus said:


> There is no excuse to being poor in canada except for pure laziness. You have state funded healthcare and education and employment insurance and some of the most generous benefits in the world. All designed to give you a leg up in the world and give you a buffer if you fail. What you choose to do with it after that is your own problem.
> 
> If you cant find work in your field, you probably didnt research it enough. There are two choices, retrain or move to where there are jobs. Or take something lesser paying in your area and make it work. But planning some major default and fraud strategy because you think you were dealt a bad hand is a poor strategy.


What we don't have is a guaranteed livable income for those who can't work or can't find work, and those who make around minimum wage, who might also be struggling with some mental, physical, financial and social issues, can scarcely put food on the table for themselves/their families working full time, let alone have the time, energy or resources to get ahead, and in any case someone has to clean toilets and such, there's too many of these jobs for them all to be taken by high school students and those with severe iQ deficits, there's not enough good jobs to go around.

What we don't have is a 20 dollar an hour minimum wage like they have in Denmark.
Christ, given all the inflation in the last several decades, and the gross inequities between rich/poor, should be 30 dollars.
Never have rich been so filthy, stinking rich as now, in all of human history.
Economic growth is illusory, by and large only 1% or less of the population is seeing any real, tangible benefits.
Meanwhile taxes increase and services are cut.
Banksters print money out of thin air are bailed out while small businesses are forced to close shop.

There's little in the way of justice for the average working man and woman.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Those who were born into wealth can afford to be as lazy as they like.
Given the technological benefits of the previous centuries, people shouldn't have to struggle to get ahead or just keep up.
Even those who're on the bottom of the economic totem pole ought to be able to afford to live comfortably.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

ezpz said:


> What X would like to know now is, at what point exactly does fraud enter the picture, as well as, are there different sorts of fraud, and what're the potential penalties?
> Is it fraud to withdraw all your money from all your credit cards simultaneously?
> Or does it become fraud only after you missed your first minimum payment?
> Or does it become fraud only after you've missed several payments?
> ...


Fraud evolves around intent. 
No it is not fraud to take cash advances on all your credit cards the same day. But if you do it with the intent not to repay, it is fraud.
Proof is the thing. However, if they can show you took all the money, hid it etc I don't think fraud would be hard to prove.
Not sure lying to CC companies is fraud in itself. You could have money to pay them but plan to use it for groceries.
On small claims which vary by province in amount, if you are sued you don't even have to appear in court but you will have a judgement issued against you. This allows the bank to garnishee wages, accounts etc.
If the amounts are larger the CC company could pursue you in the court above Small Claims court. This is more costly so unlikely. Depending on the province, the CC company holding the judgement can have various remedies to make you appear in court for a discovery process to determine your assets.
Is any of this likely. No. Unless they think they can recover the money through a wage garnishment, a seizure af assets etc, they are not going to spend the money. If they strongly suspect you have undeclared assets, they may take a risk. However, they deal with many many deliquencies and writeoffs in a day so unless something unusual about your case jumps out, it will be a cursory glance and on to the next file.
Fraud is serious **** and can involve jail time.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

ezpz said:


> Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
> 
> Mr X was also wondering, how long roughly before the CC companies assign Mr X to a collection agency, and do CC companies ever sue their debtors (directly)?
> 
> ...


CC companiws have different policies. Some assign to collection agency between 90 and 120 days in arrears, some wait almost a year, some only assign once a year. Most are on a case by case basis past 120 days depending on what success they have had oin their collection efforts.
Yes CC companies sometimes do sue directly.
If Mr X owes money he can be sued and have judgement against him even if he is living in his mothers basement, with no job and no assets. A judgement is nornally good for 6 years and at one time could be extended past that. A lot can change in a few years.
Likehood of being sued depends on how likely the company thinks it will help them get paid. Not likely from the situation you describe given MrX would make it clear he would quit his job if he got sued. After garnishement, he could make more on welfare.
No collection agency cannot search his home.
Here is a link about statutes of limitations
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...ghBMAA&usg=AFQjCNEs1_hbl2atcFh7C_gcLBPYS20jSw

And here is one on fraud
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...ggiMAI&usg=AFQjCNFE54NrZl7oUXBpUUDBgYt_IL9zAg


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## Woz (Sep 5, 2013)

You’re making the assumption that you can file for bankruptcy and your debts will be discharged. In my opinion that’s highly unlikely. Given what you’re proposing, your transactions are going to look very suspicious. I think it’s a given that the credit card companies would challenge the discharge of those debts and that the courts would agree. You would remain in bankruptcy until you repay those loans.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

Woz said:


> You would remain in bankruptcy until you repay those loans.


That would really suck. All those cash advances accruing at 20% APR and not being able to declare bankruptcy.

OP, please write back and tell us how you... uh, Mr X made out...


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

The 1% take risks and own assets and they get a proportional share of wealth for that risk. And they know how to use money to make more money.

What risk have you taken lately.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Bankruptcy probably wouldn't be the optimum solution.

If the credit card balances were small to each company, they would simply write off the debt and sell the file to a collection agency.

The collection agency would do everything they legally could to recover the money, but it is unlikely they would take the matter to court due to the expense involved and the difficulty in collecting a judgement.

So........the likely scenario would be Mr. X would be hounded by collection agencies and the credit report would show the default for 6 years.

It would be a lot of hassle for small amount of money.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

ezpz said:


> What we don't have is a guaranteed livable income for those who can't work or can't find work, and those who make around minimum wage, who might also be struggling with some mental, physical, financial and social issues, can scarcely put food on the table for themselves/their families working full time, let alone have the time, energy or resources to get ahead, and in any case someone has to clean toilets and such, there's too many of these jobs for them all to be taken by high school students and those with severe iQ deficits, there's not enough good jobs to go around.
> 
> What we don't have is a 20 dollar an hour minimum wage like they have in Denmark.
> Christ, given all the inflation in the last several decades, and the gross inequities between rich/poor, should be 30 dollars.
> ...


$30 an hour? geez. That's 60K a year. If you can't afford a vehicle, good food, and condo ownership on that, you're doing something wrong. Even 20/hr is enough to get ahead if you're in the right city. 
The way you write indicates you're fairly intelligent, and yet you're suggesting these short term fixes that will not help at all. Maybe you have disability issues, maybe you're just lazy. Hard to say.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

There is a guaranteed livable wage for people who cannot make ends meet. Its called welfare. Pays about $1000 a month. You should be able to eat and sit in an apt for that.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A single person receives $645 a month in Ontario Works. 

The poverty level is $23,000 per year.............so it wouldn't be much of a living at the Ontario Works benefit rates.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

tygrus said:


> There is a guaranteed livable wage for people who cannot make ends meet. Its called welfare. Pays about $1000 a month. You should be able to eat and sit in an apt for that.


Tygrus is right. 

And there are - at least in BC - there is welfare (well, it's not pc to call it that, it's "income assistance") as well as generous plans for persons said to have "multiple barriers to employment" or some such thing. I know one fellow here who is now mid-50s, who has been on that plan since about age 30. It pays about $1,000 a month, plus medical, dental care, etc. He says he has trouble with school learning due to being ADHD and this and that. But he is fit and strong and takes occasional labor, painting and such jobs for cash at $20-30/hr. He thinks folks like me who work for a living are fools, pissing away our lives. He has been on paid vacation for 25 years. He has travelled the world. He winters overseas. He has been in Thailand for the last 6 months, coming back in 2 weeks. He has a girlfriend over there - not always the same one each year. He lives on the beach in a simple house. 

Every year, to supplement his income, he grows marijuana when he returns to BC. He usually has 3 or 4 outdoor locations. I have seen them. When I see the industry that has gone into them, I am impressed, and I don't impress easily. It involves hauling heavy bags of soil, peat moss bales and supplies to locations that would test the mettle of a mountain goat. He has in place elaborate irrigation systems and arrangements to keep out deer, control pests, etc. He is very skilled in that aspect of horticulture. BUT, he's DISABLED! He - and I suspect most on that program - are disabled in the sense that they cannot be doctors, lawyers, etc. By the definition which seems to apply, about 70% of the population is disabled. 

The rules under which he receives his pension, or whatever it is, provide that it is not payable if he is outside the province for more than 30 days. That rule is never enforced. He goes overseas for half of the year, has a girlfriend here take care of his banking and his checks are deposited by the Crown and withdrawn by him wherever he his with an ATM card.

As I see it, in Canada, and many socialist countries like it, there are two kinds of people - the net producers or contributors, who contribute more tax money and benefits to the system, and the net takers, who produce and contribute little, and take out much. Their numbers of the latter are growing. They have an overwhelming sense of entitlement and government supports them in that. They flaunt their bumper stickers which read: "Work _harder_; millions on welfare are counting on you."


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Mukhang pera said:


> Tygrus is right.
> 
> And there are - at least in BC - there is welfare (well, it's not pc to call it that, it's "income assistance") as well as generous plans for persons said to have "multiple barriers to employment" or some such thing. I know one fellow here who is now mid-50s, who has been on that plan since about age 30. It pays about $1,000 a month, plus medical, dental care, etc. He says he has trouble with school learning due to being ADHD and this and that. But he is fit and strong and takes occasional labor, painting and such jobs for cash at $20-30/hr. He thinks folks like me who work for a living are fools, pissing away our lives. He has been on paid vacation for 25 years. He has travelled the world. He winters overseas. He has been in Thailand for the last 6 months, coming back in 2 weeks. He has a girlfriend over there - not always the same one each year. He lives on the beach in a simple house.
> 
> ...


In BC, welfare only pays 610.
Disability can pay 1000, but the average cost of renting an apartment is 800, maybe 600 if it's really cheap.
1000 barely covers rent, nevermind food, clothing, transit and other expenditures.
Just because your friend works part time + sells marijuana on top of collecting disability and is clearly scamming the system, doesn't mean all, most or even many are.
I suspect many aren't, because mental disability exist, there are obviously thousands of people in BC who're cognitively and emotionally handicapped.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Only two kinds of people, producers/takers?
What about people who can barely put food on the table, because they're disabled, or because they got canned, laid off, fired, can't find a job, have a low paying job, are struggling with personal and interpersonal issues - divorce, death in the family, depression, drug and alcohol addiction?
What about the fat cats who're born wealthy, who don't produce anything, who get richer off of moving other peoples money around and their inability to read the fine print or plan for contingencies?
Those who bribe, know the loopholes, are relatively tax exempt, get bailed when there's a crash, how's that for risks?
The fact of the matter is - the economy is rigged, the gulf, the chasm between rich/poor grows wider and deeper every year.
We're hardly a socialist country, we're barely even Keynesian, those who don't make it are pacified and placated with a few measly crumbs to keep them from protesting and rioting, while the banksters and CC companies make fortunes siphoning their money.
I don't think we can really blame people like Mr X for wanting to cash in, a bit.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

ezpz said:


> In BC, welfare only pays 610.
> Disability can pay 1000, but the average cost of renting an apartment is 800, maybe 600 if it's really cheap.
> 1000 barely covers rent, nevermind food, clothing, transit and other expenditures.
> Just because your friend works part time + sells marijuana on top of collecting disability and is clearly scamming the system, doesn't mean all, most or even many are.
> I suspect many aren't, because mental disability exist, there are obviously thousands of people in BC who're cognitively and emotionally handicapped.


A few observations.

I did not refer to the person in my last post as a friend. I said I know him. I know many people in the world. Only a handful would count as friends. 

You say he is clearly scamming the system. Absolutely. He could teach an advanced course in scamming. But yours is an odd comment from someone coming here seeking advice as to how to go about scamming, whether for yourself (which is likely) or for Mr. X, which is less likely. A case of the pot calling the kettle black?

You must be referring to the lower mainland or Victoria, perhaps central Kelowna or such places for the apartment prices you cite. I just went online and looked at Kamloops and Prince George. Prices starting around $500. And I can find even more out-of-the-way places for less.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Mukhang pera said:


> A few observations.
> 
> I did not refer to the person in my last post as a friend. I said I know him. I know many people in the world. Only a handful would count as friends.
> 
> ...


Just calling a spade a spade, if wages and welfare paid more, there probably wouldn't be as many people like your acquaintance or Mr X, and just because there are people like them, doesn't mean all or most are, the way you construed it.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Not everyone can or should have to migrate from Victoria and Vancouver because they can't afford or can barely afford to live there, half the population of BC lives there, and even if they did migrate, 1000 a month is still pretty low, should be more like 1500 or 2000.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

twa2w said:


> While I agree this is morally wrong, I assumed the OP was doing this a mental exercise only.


The OP is pursuing this train of inquiry with a fervour, and with a commentary that altogether belies the notion that this is some idle musing or mental exercise.



ezpz said:


> What about people who can barely put food on the table, because they're disabled, or because they got canned, laid off, fired, can't find a job, have a low paying job, are struggling with personal and interpersonal issues - divorce, death in the family, depression, drug and alcohol addiction?
> 
> I don't think we can really blame people like Mr X for wanting to cash in, a bit.


We have already covered the disabled. They are reasonably well taken care of. As well, many disabled are in receipt of such things as WCB benefits, long-term disability and other benefits through employment.

As for "got canned, laid off, fired" - I and probably many others on this board have suffered through such events. Just part of life.

As for "can't find a job, have a low paying job" - there is work out there for the willing and yes, while some is low paid, t'was always thus and, apart from being disabled, anyone with a bit of ambition can work into a better position.

Then you mention "struggling with personal and interpersonal issues - divorce, death in the family" - again, I'll wager that a good many here have dealt with ordinary life events such as divorce or death in the family without rolling up into a ball, wallowing in self-pity and asking for a handout.

As for "depression" - it can be a disability, so see disability comments, supra. The extent to which it's disabling can certainly be debated. I have worked in offices where employees have gone off on long-term disability, at 2/3 salary, for "depression". It is striking that, when the LTD coverage ends after 2 years, the depression miraculously lifts and they are back at work.

Drug and alcohol addiction? This will get me flamed, but I have no sympathy. Those things are entirely self-induced.





ezpz said:


> Nothing hypocritical about what I said, just calling a spade a spade, if wages and welfare paid more, there probably wouldn't be as many people like your acquaintance or Mr X, and just because there are people like them, doesn't mean all or most are, the way you construed it.


I do tend to see an element of hypocrisy here. In one post, you sound rather judgmental in saying my acquaintance is "clearly scamming the system", while, in the next breath, you say our illustrious Mr. X should not be scorned for "wanting to cash in, a bit."

To some extent, we are all products of our upbringing. I grew up to believe that getting an education, working hard, asking for nothing and proving my worth was how to manage in this world. If ever I suggested to my parents that anything in life was unfair, or that the odds were against me, or that someone else had a better chance, my mother would admonish "You're full of excuses". She meant it. I was expected to quit whining and do what it took to succeed and make my own way. From the time I was a young child, my father would often repeat the words: "The world does not owe you a living." Words to live by. Time to tell Mr. X to grow some huevos, forget about a pity party and take charge of his life.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

ezpz said:


> Not everyone can or should have to migrate from Victoria and Vancouver because they can't afford or can barely afford to live there, half the population of BC lives there, and even if they did migrate, 1000 a month is still pretty low, should be more like 1500 or 2000.


Roger that. The average Vancouver house price is now a million bucks. I'd say it is the duty of government to buy an average Vancouver house for anyone there who lacks the wherewithal to buy their own. If one plans to live off the public tit, one should be able to choose the the locale. There should also be suitable automobile thrown in for good measure.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I have to admit this thread is like watching a wreck happen. Responding will do no good, but I cannot seem to pull myself away. This provides very interesting insight to human nature and a paradoxes within each person. 

In order for Mr X to get away with what was asked, he would have to fairly intelligent to pull it off, and not leave a paper trail, and really have to well planned in order to get away with it. Mr X however seemed to lack motivation or something to better himself. I would have to say Mr X is doing more work to get out of work, than work himself. 

I have seen this so m any times where people spend more time complaining and finding a way to get out of the work, vs if they just did the work and did what was right, they would be done. Plus, they wouldn't have give up a little (or a lot) of their integrity.

I have to admit, I consider myself pretty bright and hardworking, and I think Mr X plan is way to hard and takes way more brains than what I have.


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

MUKHANG PERA........Do I sense sarcasm in your last post?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

jollybear said:


> MUKHANG PERA........Do I sense sarcasm in your last post?


Well, you got me. Just a tinge of sarcasm may have crept in.


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## ezpz (Apr 11, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> I have to admit this thread is like watching a wreck happen. Responding will do no good, but I cannot seem to pull myself away. This provides very interesting insight to human nature and a paradoxes within each person.
> 
> In order for Mr X to get away with what was asked, he would have to fairly intelligent to pull it off, and not leave a paper trail, and really have to well planned in order to get away with it. Mr X however seemed to lack motivation or something to better himself. I would have to say Mr X is doing more work to get out of work, than work himself.
> 
> ...


X was under the impression there was a lot less risks and work than what people here have been saying, which is why he wanted me to start this thread, to get some feedback from people who're more educated on such matters than he is.
I don't think X will be undertaking this or anything remotely like it any time soon, if ever, probably never.
As for me, I may continue writing in my thread just for sociopolitical purposes to counteract some of what people, notably pera have been saying.
Thanks to everyone, especially twa2w and Daniel A for your info and opinions.


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## baker3232 (Oct 7, 2011)

I don't post a lot, but this thread reminds me of other recent ones, like the one on buying a house with a payday loan, and the one about buying a car for nothing, or free parking in Montreal... down to the random letters of the posters on-line name. When I first started reading, the similarities hit me right away. Just my thoughts, plus the subject matter of getting something with little effort.


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

Maybe Canadian Money Forum can start a new Sub-Forum for ezpz........could title it "Frugality for the lazy & idiots"


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

ezpz said:


> X was under the impression there was a lot less risks and work than what people here have been saying, which is why he wanted me to start this thread, to get some feedback from people who're more educated on such matters than he is.
> I don't think X will be undertaking this or anything remotely like it any time soon, if ever, probably never.
> As for me, I may continue writing in my thread just for sociopolitical purposes to counteract some of what people, notably pera have been saying.
> Thanks to everyone, especially twa2w and Daniel A for your info and opinions.


I don't think there are as many risks to doing this as some posters would have you believe. If done with reasonable care, the chances of getting caught are very slim. Now the penalties if you do get caught could be high but are also unlikely to be severe.
Based on my experience in collections, even if done 1/2 assed, your chances of getting caught are much less than 1%. If caught, the chance of a severe penalty is also less than 1%.
So if done with some degree of care, you have people you trust and you don't talk about what you are doing, and don't do something stupid, you have a 99.999% likelyhood of pulling it off.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Interesting ... one of my room mates used my name to signup for "Album of the Month Club" to get around $109 of albums fraudulently, back the the old days of less computerization (over three decades ago). The collection agency was calling me at my parent's home demanding I pay up within four weeks of me arriving home to work for the summer.

Getting caught is "not likely"?


I am not so sure ... but whatever.


Cheers


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

sags said:


> A single person receives $645 a month in Ontario Works.
> 
> The poverty level is $23,000 per year.............so it wouldn't be much of a living at the Ontario Works benefit rates.


I just don't know where these numbers come from, and how come so many of you seem to think they are insufficient. Are we living in the same country with the same costs of living? Is everyone thoroughly convinced that their luxurious lives of spending 40-100k/year is absolutely essential to survive?



> In BC, welfare only pays 610.
> Disability can pay 1000, but the average cost of renting an apartment is 800, maybe 600 if it's really cheap.


Why on earth is someone deserving of their own apartment who is subsisting on government benefits?

I wouldn't be thrilled if I only had $610/month to live on... but I'd be _just fine._

$350 for a room rental in a house (could probably get this down to $200 if one gets creative).
$200 for food (That's eating healthy. Could make do on $100/month if I cut out meat and fresh vegetables).
$20 for a bus ride every now and then (No job to get to, so I could probably walk/bicycle most places)
$20 for clothes every now and then (Clothes are practically free the Thrift Shop)
$20 for miscellaneous.

Seriously. That's all you need to survive quite unaffected from the sufferings of being too cold, wet or hungry... poverty, as I'd call it. $23,000 poverty level? Get outa town!

A poor couple? Just doubled the budget - They're laughing. Add in some kids? Boom - new cheques coming in (especially now). Make it a single mother? She's fine too.

The only people I might be concerned about are the disabled or the elderly, but it sounds like they get lots of cheques on top of the basic welfare amounts, so I'm sure they can get by just fine too.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Eclectic12 said:


> Interesting ... one of my room mates used my name to signup for "Album of the Month Club" to get around $109 of albums fraudulently, back the the old days of less computerization (over three decades ago). The collection agency was calling me at my parent's home demanding I pay up within four weeks of me arriving home to work for the summer.
> 
> Getting caught is "not likely"?
> 
> ...


And did your friend get caught for fraud and serve jail time? Bet they got away with it.
Boo hoo, you got a call from a collection agency. Doesn't mean you had to pay. Did they sue you and garnishee you?
Mr X would fully expect to get collection calls. Doesn't mean you have to talk to them or pay them. 
I worked on a collection desk for a number of years. Threaten, intimidate etc etc but realistically, often little you could really do.


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## djkelly (Feb 18, 2016)

I would like to see this post moved to Money Diaries so we may all follow along as the journey unfolds leading to the eventual financial disaster.

"Month 1, I've maxed out all my credit cards and bought me some sweet stuff.
Month 2, I didn't pay and have been charged 19.99% interest.
Month 3, Interest is starting to add up and I'm starting to wish I saved some of my ill gotten cash because I've spent too much already.
Month 4, Phone calls from the credit card company are starting to get annoying."...


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

Month 5, Finally met a nice girl, and she doesn`t mind all those annoying collection agency calls
Month 6, Knocked up my girlfriend, guess it`s time to grow up and buy a house together
Month 7, Found the perfect house! What`s this R9 stuff my mortgage broker keeps talking about???
Month 8, Wow I`m a loser, I`ve tried everywhere and can`t get a mortgage.
Month 9, Girlfriend left me for our real-estate agent.....guess she didn`t want to live in my parents basement or my buddies closet


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

How about #10; found a good paying job in my field but now they are garnishing my wages to pay for my cc fraud


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

djkelly said:


> I would like to see this post moved to Money Diaries so we may all follow along as the journey unfolds leading to the eventual financial disaster.
> 
> "Month 1, I've maxed out all my credit cards and bought me some sweet stuff.
> Month 2, I didn't pay and have been charged 19.99% interest.
> ...


You must have interpreted the OP's intentions differently than I did.
As I saw it, he was going to max out his credit cards with cash advances. Keep the cash (hidden) to supplement future living expenses not buy a bunch of nice stuff. He was prepared to put up with some annoying collection calls and the bad credit on credit bureau. Then hope the companies give up and write off his debt. File for bankruptcy if they don't give up or if they sue him.
Yes he will have bad debts and write off but he is not concerned. A way for him to get cash to supplement his limited income.

Not so hard to do and get away with. Minor annoyance of some phone calls if he even keeps his phone while he does this.
The easiest scenario is for him to go to a few Casinos over the next 2-3 months and take a series of cash advances until he reaches his limits. In the meantime he stops paying. He parks the money with his mother or in cash in a safe deposit box in his mothers name with him having access. He starts to get collection calls and he tells them he can't pay. Girlfriend is leaving him or losing her job if she has one and leaving him stuck with her debts, he blew all his money at casino - gambling problem - can barely pay for rent and food. after 2nd or third call, he tells collector he can't pay his phone and gives up his phone - buys a pay as you go, no contract, phone with new number which he registers under a different name- only gives his number to girlfriend and mom with instructions not to give out his number to anyone.
Credit card companies likely write off debt at this point and assign to collection agency. If collection agency is local, they will field call him if he doesn't still have his phone. He gives them same sad story. Only makes 20K a year, girlfriend and debt issues and gambling debts - blew all cash at casino. They may call him at work and harass enough to make him lose job but there are rules against how often they can call and depending on type of job refuse to take calls. They can call his boss and intimidate and threaten but if they give too much information, Mr X calls both the collection agency and the original card co complaining about violation of his privacy and information. Calls stop. Collection agency relegates to the once a year 'check to see if circumstances change' file. Mr. X does not make a payment and does not acknowledge debt in any way. Mr X keeps a low key lifestyle using only enough cash to supplement income - nothing extravagant that will show. Statute of limitations runs out in two years in Ontario and bad debt is erased from credit bureau after 6.
The collection agency keeps calling and after two years he tells them not to call him again as statute has run out and he will sue them for harassment.
If they start a legal action prior to limitation (highly unlikely), he would find a trustee and file for bankruptcy. He would give same sob story and based on limited income, he would keep his car and furnishings and would not have any surplus income to pay into estate. He may have to forego his annual tax refund to the trustee.
In the meantime he has, say, 50 to 100K to supplement his income by 5 or 10 K a year.
10 years from now he likely has gotten a dozen offers to reissue credit cards and he can do the process over again. 
Privacy laws etc make it very difficult for collection agencies and credit card companies to share information. Companies will push these boundaries as they know most people don't know the rules but if you call them on it, they will back away quite quickly if you are aggressive and know what to say.
Collection companies only are given basic information on debtor due to these same rules. no access to statements etc. Even internal credit card company collectors will not likely peruse statements until the write off stage. Bankruptcy trustees are basically a factory doing 300 to 600 bankruptcies a year in many cases with most of the work on small consumer proposals being done by clerks. If a creditor wants to oppose the bankruptcy they would have to pay any costs and they would have to have a solid provable reason - very unlikely and almost never happens in small cases as collection departments go after the low hanging fruit and dispense with this little stuff very quickly. . Discharge from bankruptcy would be in 6 to 12 months and off his bureau in 6 years from discharge.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

twa2w said:


> And did your friend get caught for fraud and serve jail time? Bet they got away with it.
> Boo hoo, you got a call from a collection agency. Doesn't mean you had to pay. Did they sue you and garnishee you?


Is it really surprising that someone who didn't receive the albums and whose signature is not on the application form wasn't sued or had their wages garnished? Or that the collection agency gave up relatively quickly for such a small amount?

Mr. X is looking at a much bigger amount (more incentive for the collection agency or multiple agencies?) with far more documentation involved.

I expect a robo-caller would be easy to setup at almost no cost to call any phone in NA, in these days of automation/cheap computers.




twa2w said:


> Mr X would fully expect to get collection calls.


... and my point is that where it was easy for the collection agency to find me thirty years ago - Mr. X likely would be much easier to find and cheaper to pester.




twa2w said:


> I worked on a collection desk for a number of years. Threaten, intimidate etc etc but realistically, often little you could really do.


Be that as it may ... one would think it would be easier to find creative ways to boost one's income and/or cut expenses.
This is a day and age when multiple creative people are millionaires off of YouTube, I've met web developers who finished their projects while in other countries such as El Savador etc.

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/world/10-richest-self-made-youtube-millionaires/?view=all


But where one does not try ... one will never know what's possible. The strangest stuff can end up being successful.


Cheers


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I actually know someone who does this kind of thing. Has declared bankruptcy 2 or 3 times. When he gets a new credit card he is delighted and spends the money right away. Will make minimum payments until all his credit cards are maxed out. I have seen him get indignant with collections people on the phone, saying we both know I am never going to pay anything so why do you waste your time and mine?

Should add that he was in a bad car accident many years ago that kept him in hospital for 6 months, and left him with a plate in his head and personality somewhat altered.

It wouldn't suit me but I know some people live like that. If you are thoughtful enough to ask first, and have a conscience, then I don't think such a life is for you.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

ezpz said:


> As for me, I may continue writing in my thread just for sociopolitical purposes to counteract some of what people, notably pera have been saying.
> Thanks to everyone, especially twa2w and Daniel A for your info and opinions.


twa2w, so gratifying to see your willingness to assist a would-be fraudster. An exemplar of what CMF stands for. Indeed, the initialism "CMF" should properly (and proudly) be understood to mean "Call Me Fraudulent" or "Canadian Money for Free". We need to encourage the indolent, not the diligent. The rest of us on this forum need to stop hiding in the weeds, step up and do likewise. Why be pusillanimous? So what if losses experienced by credit card companies and other victims of theft and fraud pass the losses on to all of us? I do not mind a whit if prices, service charges, etc. increase due to the fact the some choose not to pay their own way. It is their due, properly viewed as an entitlement ex debito justitiae.

With the collective experience and intelligence on this forum, there must be many who can suggest some pretty good ways to rip off "the system" and get away with it. We should be leaders in educating the downtrodden and oppressed, such as the hapless Mr. X, in the ways of bilking those of us who were born to the purple. We're a bunch of bourgeois elitists who deserve to be taken. For my part, I'll regard it as part of the "sociopolitical" education espz proposes to impart, particularly given that I alone have been identified as hopelessly deficient in that regard, wholly detached from the sociopolitical realities of which he speaks with eloquence.

So, how say you espz, do you think I'm starting to catch on?


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Don't worry Mukhang, I don't believe the OP will go ahead with this. And I did leave out a key piece he would need to pull this off effectively.
Electric12, it is actually tougher in some ways for collection agencies now. Tougher privacy laws, rules around time of day and times you can call, more lawsuits around harrassment etc
In other ways it is easier as you say because people like 
Ezpz leave tracks all over the Internet and likely doesn't know how to hide them.
Credit card collections is a volume game and collectors can't spent much time on a file. I won't say anything more.
Cheers
J


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

A friend told me how her niece and husband left Canada owing about $200,000 between them mainly to the generous RBC student credit lines they got in grad school. Three years after they left the country to USA the calls come from collection agencies asking for help locating them.My friend was used as a reference on a couple applications I suppose ,she is not helping them just says they don't live around here any more.As for multiple bankruptcies I would imagine at some point they would declare that as fraud .


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