# Anti-Trump protests



## james4beach

I saw in other threads that people don't understand why Americans are protesting. Let me explain it to you. And by the way, I'm currently in the epicenter of the protests in the USA. Police used pepper spray and rubber pellets just a couple hours ago to disperse riots a few km from me.

_As police have declared this a riot, I want to clarify that I am not participating in any demonstrations, nor do I ever plan to. I am not encouraging anyone to join the demonstration._

Why are people protesting?

Trump has given a big thumbs up to (1) racists/white supremacists, (2) anti-gay crusaders and (3) abusers of women.

Therefore, people are protesting to assert their right to live without harassment and mistreatment.

(1) black and hispanic people are concerned that the newly emboldened white supremacists (Trump's base) are going to suppress them and make their lives miserable. Not to mention Trump's direct hostility to non-whites (Obama birther nonsense, Muslim Ban, Mexicans are Rapists, etc). This extends to Muslims, Jews, and pretty much everyone who isn't white Christian. All of these groups feel threatened by Trump and his circle, plus his extremist supporters.

(2) gay people are very upset at the prospect of the anti-gay crusaders taking their rights away, and driving them back into hiding. The vice president is aggressively anti-gay!

(3) the election was proof that American society very quickly dismissed abuse of women. Women do not want to be mistreated. They observed that a man who has an established history of assaulting and mistreating women is elected president! How safe do you think women feel after this?

The protesters are effectively saying: we understand that forces (1), (2) and (3) have been legitimized/endorsed in this election, but this is not acceptable. If you really want to crush my rights & freedoms and make MY life worse through oppression and intimidation, you're going to have to fight me.

I think that the biggest force in the protests is (1), because it's basically the civil rights movement. Trump has re-energized the *********** crowd, KKK, etc. Black people are going to work very, very hard to make sure that they are not trampled on. Expect a lot more of this in the coming years. _People don't give up their rights very easily._


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## mordko

You really need to try and stick to the facts. For example it is well known that Trump has no personal animosity towards gays. Some gays are upset, but clearly not all http://www.logcabin.org/pressreleas...s-statement-on-presidential-election-results/

The reality is that Trump hasn't taken away any rights just yet.


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## james4beach

Yes, the facts: his running mate Mike Pence has a history of anti-gay agenda, and the gay community is concerned that will translate into political decisions. Pence (who will be vice president) worked hard to deny equality to gay people in Indiana. He also wanted public funding for conversion therapy, which some describe as a form of torture.

I think the gay community is justified in their concern. Trump himself may have no problem with gay people, but the VP and others in his circle have a big problem with gays.

The point of my post was to tell you the motivations of the protesters. On the gay front, these are the concerns of the protesters as I understand them.


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## mordko

Yeah, and Clinton was personally and strongly opposed to gay equality, if you are referring to gay marriage. She changed the tune when it became politically prudent.


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## james4beach

Very possible. I am not saying Clinton was the better candidate. Again, I'm trying to verbalize the message of the protesters


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## mordko

And they need to come down. Violence and damage to property are not justified in any way.


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## wraphter

james4beach said:


> I saw in other threads that people don't understand why Americans are protesting. Let me explain it to you. And by the way, I'm currently in the epicenter of the protests in the USA. Police used pepper spray and rubber pellets just a couple hours ago to disperse riots a few km from me.
> 
> _As police have declared this a riot, I want to clarify that I am not participating in any demonstrations, nor do I ever plan to. I am not encouraging anyone to join the demonstration._
> 
> Why are people protesting?
> 
> Trump has given a big thumbs up to (1) racists/white supremacists, (2) anti-gay crusaders and (3) abusers of women.
> 
> Therefore, people are protesting to assert their right to live without harassment and mistreatment.
> 
> (1) black and hispanic people are concerned that the newly emboldened white supremacists (Trump's base) are going to suppress them and make their lives miserable. Not to mention Trump's direct hostility to non-whites (Obama birther nonsense, Muslim Ban, Mexicans are Rapists, etc). This extends to Muslims, Jews, and pretty much everyone who isn't white Christian. All of these groups feel threatened by Trump and his circle, plus his extremist supporters.
> 
> (2) gay people are very upset at the prospect of the anti-gay crusaders taking their rights away, and driving them back into hiding. The vice president is aggressively anti-gay!
> 
> (3) the election was proof that American society very quickly dismissed abuse of women. Women do not want to be mistreated. They observed that a man who has an established history of assaulting and mistreating women is elected president! How safe do you think women feel after this?
> 
> The protesters are effectively saying: we understand that forces (1), (2) and (3) have been legitimized/endorsed in this election, but this is not acceptable. If you really want to crush my rights & freedoms and make MY life worse through oppression and intimidation, you're going to have to fight me.
> 
> I think that the biggest force in the protests is (1), because it's basically the civil rights movement. Trump has re-energized the *********** crowd, KKK, etc. Black people are going to work very, very hard to make sure that they are not trampled on. Expect a lot more of this in the coming years. _People don't give up their rights very easily._


If the youth vote and Blacks had turned out in greater numbers in Pennsylvania,Michigan and Wisconsin for Clinton maybe they wouldn't now
be marching in the streets.

How Clinton lost 'blue wall' states of Mich., Pa., Wis.



> It was Hillary Clinton’s “blue wall” — three Great Lakes battlegrounds that Republicans had banged their heads against for years.
> 
> But Donald Trump stormed the blue wall Tuesday, parlaying victories in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania into the presidency.
> 
> Trump did it on a tide of votes from rural and blue-collar whites.
> 
> *But he was helped by Clinton’s neglect of the region and her failure to fully mobilize her party’s own base, including young voters and African-Americans.*
> 
> .......
> 
> Donald Trump brought a new calculation, a new way of winning (these states), but part of that was her colossal failure,” said GOP pollster Gene Ulm. “She did not turn out and galvanize the Obama coalition.”
> 
> In Wisconsin, where Clinton didn’t make a single stop during the general election campaign, she won voters under 30 by just 4 points. Obama won them by 23 points four years ago. The state voted Republican for the first time since 1984.
> 
> “The vote among younger voters dropped off appreciably” for Clinton, said Tom Holbrook, political scientist for the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.
> 
> Clinton’s margin in the ultra-blue city of Milwaukee was 27,000 votes smaller than Obama’s. That was roughly the size of her statewide defeat.
> 
> ........
> 
> In Michigan, Trump outperformed Romney, a native Michigander, in blue-collar Macomb County, known as the home of the Reagan Democrat. He outpaced Clinton in other regions of the state, vowing to secure America’s borders and return Michigan to its manufacturing heyday. Her share of the vote in Wayne County, home to Detroit, was 6 percentage points lower than Obama’s. Michigan went Republican for the first time since 1988.


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## ian

My understanding is that only 55 percent of eligible voters actually got off their backsides and exercised their franchise. Perhaps if more people had 'bothered' to do this the outcome would have been different. But they didn't. So the only reasonable option that exists is to accept the new leadership, move forward, and start preparing now for 2020 and for the intervening senatorial races.


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## Just a Guy

This is a result of the Americans "rule by fear" campaign. It's been almost 20 years of daily "terror alert level announcements" which, mysteriously, seem to go up when there were controversial items in the news.

Nearly an entire generation has been raised under fear control, yet we wonder why they seem to all be a bit paranoid.

What happened to "taking the moral high ground"? And the "we're not like those Trump supporters, we're more civilized..." smugness that the Hillary supporters preached? Truth seems to be, that the American experiment in control seems to be backfiring. 

Trump hasn't done anything yet, in fact is already starting to back away from some of his election rhetoric, yet people are taking unprecedented action.

I'm one of those who saw this election as a lose-lose scenario, looks like I'm being proved right. The Hillary camp certainly seem to be reacting like children who didn't get their way...


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## new dog

Don't forget the gay night club that was blown up. Hillary wanted to bring into the country many potential candidates, that could do a ton of damage to the gay community. I heard after that incident, the gay community felt threatened, by what a Clinton immigration policy could bring and started to support Trumps message. I would think after 8 years of bush in office gay people would be gone from the map in the US and yet they are still here. I don't think Trump will do anything at all to gay people no matter what the KKK or whoever do.

Then there is women not wanting to be mistreated. Look how the left has done in Sweden and Europe. Women everywhere are being mistreated over there, by the same people Hillary would like to bring into the US.

White people were getting scared under the Dems because of racist movements like Black Lives Matter. This crazy movement as bad as the KKK today, started under Obama, who should have been able to do to a lot towards better race relations with 8 years in office. After Obama I would be scared to be a white person if Hillary got elected.


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## Argonaut

People are protesting because George Soros is paying them to do so. Anybody who isn't getting paid should be protesting to Soros because they're wasting their time for no personal gain!


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## Trump

America got what it deserved. I'm still not sure if this represents the greatest triumph of democracy, or the greatest failure.

Maybe I should change my username.


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## Nelley

Argonaut said:


> People are protesting because George Soros is paying them to do so. Anybody who isn't getting paid should be protesting to Soros because they're wasting their time for no personal gain!


These protesters should unionize and strike against Soros-go to one of his palaces-I think he has one in NYC and sit in front of it until Grifter Soros gives them a pay raise and better benefits.


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## lonewolf :)

The so called deplorables won so the so called respectable protest.

Even crazier there are protests in Canada over Trump. Who do these protesters think they are not letting the US be the US ?


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## new dog

I knew the Soros connection but didn't want to say it because it would detract from my message. It seems whenever you mention Soros here, everyone panics.


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## s123

The results showed the more people has shifted to an alternative source. 
It's not only Americans, citizens of the world are trying to steer away from constant conflict, drama and fake/propaganda action.
We saw the major media encourage the conflict & divid the American during the campaign. 

We may moving forward to help ourselves if more people realize to not participate in dividing systems and focus on looking into the real problems.


- An alarmingly low number of Americans say they trust the media:
http://www.businessinsider.com/ap-poll-just-6-percent-of-people-say-they-trust-the-media-2016-4

Just 6 percent of people say they have a lot of confidence in the media, 
putting the news industry about equal to Congress and well below the public's view of other institutions.
In this presidential campaign year, Democrats were more likely to trust the news media than Republicans or independents.
But trust today also goes beyond the traditional journalistic principles of accuracy, balance and fairness.

Faced with ever-increasing sources of information, Americans also are more likely to rely on news that is up-to-date, concise and cites expert sources or documents, according to a study by the Media Insight Project, a partnership of The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research and the American Press Institute.
Nearly 90 percent of Americans say it's extremely or very important that the media get their facts correct, according to the study. About 4 in 10 say they can remember a specific incident that eroded their confidence in the media, most often one that dealt with accuracy or a perception that it was one-sided.


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## mordko

Argonaut said:


> People are protesting because George Soros is paying them to do so. Anybody who isn't getting paid should be protesting to Soros because they're wasting their time for no personal gain!


Please whack you head against the wall hard several times. Might help. Won't be any worse than it is now.


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## Argonaut

Soros behind it.


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## new dog

So james what do you have to say about this. It appears Soros is behind some of the turmoil and misinformation.


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## james4beach

Soros is an American citizen. If he believes strongly that doing X is good for his country, what's the issue? Are you saying that billionaires should not further their own agendas or influence politics?

By the way, when I do a google search for "soros trump protest" nearly all results are right-wing conspiracy/tabloid style web sites.


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## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Soros is an American citizen. If he believes strongly that doing X is good for his country, what's the issue? Are you saying that billionaires should not further their own agendas or influence politics?
> 
> By the way, when I do a google search for "soros trump protest" nearly all results are right-wing conspiracy/tabloid style web sites.


George Soros has a stated goal of weakening all advanced western societies-he basically feels chaos will advance his own personal monetary position. That is the issue.


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## olivaw

Americans don't see peaceful protest as a sign of rebellion. They see it as an expression of their first amendment right. Heck, tea party members planned a number of "million man marches" and received support from prominent conservatives, including Trump. 

James' explanation sounds logical. People are afraid and angry. 

Trump himself eventually tweeted admiration for the protestors (after a mis-step).


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## Argonaut

james4beach said:


> By the way, when I do a google search for "soros trump protest" nearly all results are right-wing conspiracy/tabloid style web sites.


James, hasn't this election proved that the mainstream media is dead? I'll grant, CNN had good election night coverage because John King is a wizard on the map. And it was beautiful to see their crushed souls echo in their blank stares. But other than that, they have lost relevance big league. In this era, one journalist with a spin has insignificant power compared to the collective sleuthing efforts of thousands of young men with autism. How can CNN possibly parse through things like Wikileaks at a rapid pace to find the truth? They also laughably say that they are the only ones who are allowed to look at them.

The media belongs to the people now, not 6 conglomerates. You can't disprove that Soros is behind the protests, because we've already figured it out and posted evidence. We the people. You just attack the source, which is always the first tactic in a losing argument.


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## olivaw

"_We the people_" are protesting. Thousands of them, and they are not being paid to do so.


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## mordko

Nelley said:


> George Soros has a stated goal of weakening all advanced western societies-he basically feels chaos will advance his own personal monetary position. That is the issue.


Would you mind providing a reference to the neo-Nazi site that you are sourcing this obvious libel from?


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## new dog

Here are some more intelligent democrats in action caught on tape. If any Trump supporters do this CNN would go crazy and show us how racist and horrible they all are. Of course Trump would be blamed for creating the entire thing. 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...ia-high-school-girl-attacked-supporting-trump


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## Rusty O'Toole

Has anyone pointed out Obama is President? Trump won't be sworn in until February. Trump has done nothing. The protesters are protesting a fantasy out of their imagination. Who put it there and why?


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## james4beach

Rusty, I posted my interpretation of why they are protesting. Does it make sense to you?

And if you disagree with what I wrote, I'm curious which part of it you think is untrue. Do you NOT think that black and hispanic americans are concerned about being mistreated?

You say that the protesters are protesting a fantasy. What do you mean by this? How do you think black people feel after Trump spends years saying Obama isn't a US citizen? There is no fantasy here -- Trump actively insulted Obama, repeatedly, along with the rest of the birther movement.

Being totally honest here, I just want to understand your thinking process.


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## new dog

There were both republicans and Dems playing around with the Obama birth thing for years. I for one thought it was just a stupid thing that people tried to make into a issue. 

Black people have never been worse off since the 60s under 8 years of Obama and now we have Black lives Matter. Trump has reached out to them and we can only hope he helps them, unlike Obama and Hillary that just tell them a pile BS just to get their votes. 

So the protesters really are just a bunch of idiots who have no idea about anything.


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## new dog

Watching CNN it is still non stop anti-Trump, they are showing every incident they can, where a Trump backer made a nazi symbol or told a mexican to go home or something. CNN hasn't shown any of the Dem supporters doing crap like I linked above Also it could be that people will write stuff like nazi symbols on walls that are Dems trying to stir up trouble. All these people including Trump supporters who do this stuff are all idiots. CNN needs to be shut down and a real news network for everybody needs to emerge.


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## m3s

james, I've only spent 3 months so far this year in the states but i feel you are missing the mark. the left's behavior is exactly why trump was elected

portraying trump and millions who voted for him as evil-racist-sexist-basket-of-deplorables with sound bites.. instead of acknowledging or discussing the issues

clinton represented status quo empty promises. trump represented change. bernie represented change. bernie had a much better chance


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## mordko

new dog said:


> Watching CNN it is still non stop anti-Trump, they are showing every incident they can, where a Trump backer made a nazi symbol or told a mexican to go home or something. CNN hasn't shown any of the Dem supporters doing crap like I linked above Also it could be that people will write stuff like nazi symbols on walls that are Dems trying to stir up trouble. All these people including Trump supporters who do this stuff are all idiots. CNN needs to be shut down and a real news network for everybody needs to emerge.


Right. Also Saturday night live needs to be shut down for upsetting the dear leader. seriously, I wish nobody would criticize Trump or his supporters. Nor should people joke or mention the subject of small hands. Not while tiny fingers have access to the button.


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## new dog

A 24 hour national news network needs to be unbiased and even or should be a fringe outlet like zero hedge. Shutting down is a bit much I agree and I do like SNL.


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## olivaw

Chatting with my close friend on the East coast. He's an older white retired business professional. He's no fool and he is certainly not given to drama. He absolutely believes that the protests are justified.


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## gibor365

> He absolutely believes that the protests are justified.


 And what purpose of those protests?! To cancel results of election?! Than what to do with famous "American democracy"?!
Protesters should've be thinking before and requesting to change idiotic American election system....

The only democratic election system is nationwide proportional representation!


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## gibor365

new dog said:


> Watching CNN it is still non stop anti-Trump, they are showing every incident they can, where a Trump backer made a nazi symbol or told a mexican to go home or something.


Yeah, yeah...typical BS! I don't watch CNN, but did they tell that Bibi (Israeli PM) called Trump "true friend of Israel" and Trump "invites Netanyahu to meeting 'at the first opportunity'"?!


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## olivaw

^My friend says that people are protesting the legitimization of the alt-right (which he refers to as fascist) They are not going to overturn the election - Trump won fair and square - but they want to make sure that the alt-right gets no more traction. 

My friend is quite worried about how this will all turn out.


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## andrewf

Trump won 'fair' and 'square'. The electoral college gives for the second time in five elections the presidency to the loser (less popular support).


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Trump won 'fair' and 'square'. The electoral college gives for the second time in five elections the presidency to the loser (less popular support).


I wouldn't say that I prefer Hillary much more over Trump, and probably I don't understand american democracy, but , logically, winner should be decided ONLY by popular vote.

btw, in Canada situation can be like in US


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## mordko

Anyone not worried is dumb or nuts or evil. Having said this, Trump hasn't done anything yet. Not known for a fact what he will try to do. And if he tries, it's questionable what exactly he can achieve. In summary, the panic seems premature and thrashing property has no excuse.

US survived LBJ and Nixon, both virulent racists, and alt right is tiny compared to KKK at their heyday.


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## mordko

andrewf said:


> Trump won 'fair' and 'square'. The electoral college gives for the second time in five elections the presidency to the loser (less popular support).


Except that's not how "loser" is defined. Having more figures on the board of chess does not mean you won a game.


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## andrewf

He gets to be president, but with an asterisk. People nattering about him having a mandate for his agenda are trying to bury the fact that Hillary had more support.


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## olivaw

My friend doesn't believe that the protests are premature. 

I always thought that the electoral college was designed to safeguard against the election of a tyrant but I was mistaken. He tells me that it was a compromise with Georgia, Virginia, and the Carolinas so that they could prevent an abolitionist. It must sting African Americans to see the electoral college create a Trump victory.


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## Argonaut

The popular vote whining is a non-issue, and here is why. First of all, the margin was very tiny, 0.2% in favour of Hillary compared to the relatively large electoral college win for Trump. Second, the popular vote is irrelevant because that is not how the game is played. For instance, claiming victory for Hillary would be like overturning the results of a Super Bowl because the losing team had more total passing yards. If the rule was popular vote wins, then the campaigns would have been totally different. Candidates would have basically only had to campaign in major population centres and ignored the rest of the country. To win the election all of your policies could be pro-city and anti-rural and thus have the most popular support. The electoral college necessitates appealing to a wide variety of Americans, and it gives rural America a voice. Incidentally rural Americans having a voice led to a Trump victory.


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## gibor365

> he popular vote whining is a non-issue,
Click to expand...

 It's true that tactics of both candidates would be different (for popular vote), but not true that "Candidates would have basically only had to campaign in major population centres and ignored the rest of the country.", as "rest of the country will decide the outcome. I'm familiar a lot with elections in Israel (popular vote) and all candidates concentrates even less on campaign in major cities like Tel Aviv, Haifa or Jerusalem and more on the rest of the country


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## sags

I think the protesters are wasting their time and energy, but it is their right in a democracy.

It is a little rich for the Republicans to be complaining about political decorum after dogging Obama non stop since 2008.


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## james4beach

Today on the train back from work, I ran into a group of Jewish young adults (wearing baseball caps with Hebrew lettering). They explained to me how Trump supports neo-Nazis.

Here's an article by an expert on racism in America. He describes how Trump feeds the racists
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/28/donald-trump-is-the-new-face-of-white-supremacy/

For those of you who don't understand the protests, I suggest you do more reading until you get to a point where you understand WHY the protests are happening. Anybody with a basic education and reading skills should be capable of understanding the viewpoint of the protesters. You don't have to agree with them, but you should understand why they are upset.


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## james4beach

sags, would _you_ fight to protect your wife and child? Excerpt from the above article, bold for emphasis to illustrate that Trump is perceived to be a threat to individuals. This is why they protest and fight.


I sincerely doubt Trump really wants to be president of the country and submit himself to the art of the compromise that is politics in the real world. He just wants to win to feed his massive ego. But who knows how many hate crimes he will inspire in the process. It should be noted that Trump is widely popular on the racist Stormfront discussion board. Stormfront is the primary place white supremacists and Neo-Nazis meet and registered members have been linked to almost 100 murders.
. . .
But there is no better example of the failed model of racist, sexist masculinity than Donald J. Trump. He is an artifact of the past and he wants to drag the country back to it. *The man’s rhetoric directly affects the security of my family*. The thought of someone hating my wife and child (or attacking them) because they want to “make America great again,” is frightening. When was Trump’s America great? In 2008, when the Great Recession started? In 1954, before the passage of Brown vs. the Board of Education? In 1860, before the start of the Civil War? America is better than Donald Trump, but *I fight against him for the safety of my family.*


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## mordko

Referencing Counrerpunch is no better and possibly worse than referencing Zerohedge. Firstly, it's run by Cockburns. The father Cockburn was a member of the Communist party during Stalin's times. That's like being pro-Nazi during Hitler's times in some way because of the scale of their crimes. Moreover he worked with Soviet agents and helped to orchestrate acts of violence against antiSoviet left.

Secondly, Counterpunch regularly publishes Antisemitic screeds by Holocaust denying Gilad Atzmon, who promotes Elders of Zion. Counterpunch vigorously supports Neo nazi Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel, who was expelled from Canada and is doing time in Germany. Counterpunch regularly publishes articles by Weir, who claims that Jews engage in ritual murders. Counterpunch also publishes articles by the Russian agent, Holocaust denying antisemite who goes under the pseudonym Israil Shamir (one of his many names, the man is not Jewish). 

It's a far left version of Stormfront.


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## mordko

Tried to read the actual article but couldn't get passed the claim that Trump is the new Father Coughlin. The latter was a Catholic Nazi propagandist from Canada, a vigorous supporter of Adolf Hitler. Coughlin advocated violence against Jews. It's egregious comparison, no reasonable person would make the claim.


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## GreatLaker

For Toronto peeps a protest is planned for Saturday Nov 19th, starting at city hall at 1:00 PM and marching to Trump tower. 

http://www.blogto.com/city/2016/11/huge_anti-trump_rally_planned_for_toronto


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## SMK

sags said:


> I think the protesters are wasting their time and energy.


How can you say that? Not a waste of time, except for the true haters. Most have legitimate reasons for protesting such an outcome, which might influence some political decisions. But democrats are refusing to take any blame for the loss by pretending their candidate was flawless. In politics, especially when a country is hungry for change, experience does not translate into victory, have we not witnessed that before as recently as 2008?

Blame it on Comey, on the unfair media, blame it on gender even when women voted for Trump in large numbers, blame it on Trump supporters, blame it on anyone else but themselves. The country justifiably wanted change, and maybe democrats would have won had they elected a candidate with less political liabilities. Even before Sanders and Trump became a laughable threat at first, democrats were so sure America owed Clinton the presidency, because she was a woman, because Americans could get "two for the price of one", because she had been addicted to politics and in everyone's face for decades so she was the most qualified in US history. If they keep it up, Trump could be a 2 term President. Even Beyonce was not ready for a woman president in 2008, only in 2016, LOL. Same could be said about the way famous "white" personalities voted in 2008. 

This woman is right. http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/11/11/muslim-immigrant-woman-votes-donald-trump-nr.cnn

And yup, Americans failed Clinton. :drunk:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/12/hillary-clinton-we-failed-her-sarah-churchwell


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## SMK

GreatLaker said:


> For Toronto peeps a protest is planned for Saturday Nov 19th, starting at city hall at 1:00 PM and marching to Trump tower.
> 
> http://www.blogto.com/city/2016/11/huge_anti-trump_rally_planned_for_toronto


Let me book my ticket. :eagerness:


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## mordko

Globe&Mail published a verbose piece which is just nuts. In it Tabatha Southey is claiming the following:


> I do know that humans do awful things. I’ve read my history. Right now, it feels as if I’m rereading one of the more unfortunate bits. Well done, America. I can report that we in Canada are feeling a little Austria, 1933, right now.


The idiotic rant is typical of social media but I would have expected better from something that calls itself a newspaper.


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## lonewolf :)

No matter who would have won the election there would have been protests. It is just a time for protests. You have people that want change & those that do not want change. Maybe the states that want Hillary to be their president should break away.

I guess living next to the US is rubbing off on us Canadians. Some of us want to tell the US who should run their country. Should we be like war hungry Hillary who has supported every war while she was in politics the US is famous for over throwing governments.


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## Pluto

mordko said:


> Anyone not worried is dumb or nuts or evil. Having said this, Trump hasn't done anything yet. Not known for a fact what he will try to do. And if he tries, it's questionable what exactly he can achieve. In summary, the panic seems premature and thrashing property has no excuse.
> 
> US survived LBJ and Nixon, both virulent racists, and alt right is tiny compared to KKK at their heyday.


Tell me where you get this idea LBJ was a racist?


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## mordko

Pluto said:


> Tell me where you get this idea LBJ was a racist?


1. He used the word "******" a lot. Discussing civil rights legislation with men like Mississippi Democrat James Eastland, who committed most of his life to defending white supremacy, he’d simply call it “the ****** bill.”

2. He voted against the anti-lynching bill.

He subsequently enacted a civil rights bill during his presidency, which shows that we never know what to expect. 

Source: https://www.amazon.com/Master-Of-The-Senate-Johnson/dp/0394720954
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-relentless-conservative/the-democratic-partys-two_b_933995.html


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## Nelley

james4beach said:


> sags, would _you_ fight to protect your wife and child? Excerpt from the above article, bold for emphasis to illustrate that Trump is perceived to be a threat to individuals. This is why they protest and fight.
> 
> 
> I sincerely doubt Trump really wants to be president of the country and submit himself to the art of the compromise that is politics in the real world. He just wants to win to feed his massive ego. But who knows how many hate crimes he will inspire in the process. It should be noted that Trump is widely popular on the racist Stormfront discussion board. Stormfront is the primary place white supremacists and Neo-Nazis meet and registered members have been linked to almost 100 murders.
> . . .
> But there is no better example of the failed model of racist, sexist masculinity than Donald J. Trump. He is an artifact of the past and he wants to drag the country back to it. *The man’s rhetoric directly affects the security of my family*. The thought of someone hating my wife and child (or attacking them) because they want to “make America great again,” is frightening. When was Trump’s America great? In 2008, when the Great Recession started? In 1954, before the passage of Brown vs. the Board of Education? In 1860, before the start of the Civil War? America is better than Donald Trump, but *I fight against him for the safety of my family.*


You have convinced all of us-your life is going right down the tubes-our condolences-SUCKS TO BE YOU.


----------



## wraphter

lonewolf :) said:


> No matter who would have won the election there would have been protests. It is just a time for protests. You have people that want change & those that do not want change. Maybe the states that want Hillary to be their president should break away.
> 
> I guess living next to the US is rubbing off on us Canadians. Some of us want to tell the US who should run their country. Should we be like war hungry Hillary who has supported every war while she was in politics the US is famous for over throwing governments.


The alliances that the US entered into after WWII have been the basis of peace in the world.These alliances are NATO and alliances with
Japan ,Korea,Phillipines ,Australia. The US was the chief opposition of the USSR during the Cold War. When Ronald Reagan
stood at the Brandenberg Gate and said "Mr. Gorbachev,tear down that wall!" it was an inspirational call heard round the world. 

There was a real danger of nuclear world war but fortunately the US and its allies prevailed and the Soviet Union collapsed. A great danger was averted.It was good the West won,not the other guys. When the Berlin Wall fell it was a great day for humanity. The doomsday clock moved dramatically back from midnight.There is some merit in Samuel Huntington's idea of the clash of civilizations.

There was room for optimism with the collapse of the USSR in the early nineties. Now, Russia has reverted back to its traditional belligerence and confrontation between large blocs is in store.

The US system of free markets spread to China ,India and many other countries. Socialistic central control was discarded.
Prosperity and globalism increased. That was attributable to American capitalism underwritten by American military force.

Do you have something better?


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> The popular vote whining is a non-issue, and here is why. First of all, the margin was very tiny, 0.2% in favour of Hillary compared to the relatively large electoral college win for Trump. Second, the popular vote is irrelevant because that is not how the game is played. For instance, claiming victory for Hillary would be like overturning the results of a Super Bowl because the losing team had more total passing yards. If the rule was popular vote wins, then the campaigns would have been totally different. Candidates would have basically only had to campaign in major population centres and ignored the rest of the country. To win the election all of your policies could be pro-city and anti-rural and thus have the most popular support. The electoral college necessitates appealing to a wide variety of Americans, and it gives rural America a voice. Incidentally rural Americans having a voice led to a Trump victory.


In other words, it's okay that the system is lacking in democratic legitimacy because it gives results I like. To frame your comments in another way, you believe it is good and right for rural people to have votes that count for more than urban (and "urban") people. Urban should be about 3/5ths of rural?

Even if this was the intent of the electoral college, it is remarkably ineffective. It makes most states irrelevant to the presidential contest, including most of the large ones. California, NY and Texas only play a role as sources of cash, they do not influence the result. 

More people supported Hillary's agenda. Trump does not have a mandate for wholesale change. Congress should not allow themselves to be bullied by the idea of a Trump mandate because he won the presidency. He does not have the tide of public opinion behind him. Hopefully there are enough reasonable Republicans in congress.


----------



## m3s

james4beach said:


> Here's an article by an expert on racism in America. He describes how Trump feeds the racists
> http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/28/donald-trump-is-the-new-face-of-white-supremacy/
> 
> For those of you who don't understand the protests, I suggest you do more reading until you get to a point where you understand WHY the protests are happening. Anybody with a basic education and reading skills should be capable of understanding the viewpoint of the protesters. You don't have to agree with them, but you should understand why they are upset.


Wow.

This "expert on racism" claims that addressing terrorism, illegal immigration, and inner city violence is racist.. Let's just continue to ignore real issues that are hurting Muslims, Hispanics and African Americans themselves for the sake of being politically correct. The irony is that avoiding the issues is actually breeding the racism.

Tell me James, what is it they protest for that Bernie did not advocate? To protest now, rather than for Bernie, is to say you want the status quo. The status quo in the States is wrought with issues for many "subsets" of people. There are more than one way to solve the issues but politically correct inaction is not one

"It's a small subsection of white people" says James' racism expert..


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Globe&Mail published a verbose piece which is just nuts. In it Tabatha Southey is claiming the following:
> 
> 
> The idiotic rant is typical of social media but I would have expected better from something that calls itself a newspaper.


We can go along with the idea that Trump is not Hitler if Trump supporters recognize his fascist tendencies and oppose them. This is what the Hitler references are referring to. Scapegoating minorities and fueling nationalism is very dangerous.


----------



## mordko

Claiming that US system is lacking democratic legitimacy because it's not based on a simple plurality of votes is ludicrous. On this basis there are hardly any democracies. Canada comes to mind along with Britain and many others.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> You have convinced all of us-your life is going right down the tubes-our condolences-SUCKS TO BE YOU.


You didn't read James' post. He was quoting someone else.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> We can go along with the idea that Trump is not Hitler if Trump supporters recognize his fascist tendencies and oppose them. This is what the Hitler references are referring to. Scapegoating minorities and fueling nationalism is very dangerous.


On this basis William Mackenzie King was Hitler and the world has had thousands of Hitlers since 1945, which of course is idiocy.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Claiming that US system is lacking democratic legitimacy because it's not based on a simple plurality of votes is ludicrous. On this basis there are hardly any democracies. Canada comes to mind along with Britain and many others.


The US is not a Parliamentary democracy. In Canada & the UK, the executive serves at the pleasure of the legislature. 

In a republic, citizens are directly voting for the president. Only in an upside-down system would those votes translate into the loser becoming president. The upside-down part here is the electoral college. Turns out people are not electing a president, they are voting for unnamed electors who meet a month later to actually elect a president. And even more bizarrely, this group of people could meet in December and choose to elect Hillary instead, if they wanted to. Or Jill Stein for that matter.

ETA: I carefully used the word lacking here. I meant lacking as in "deficient/inadequate" not as in "without". Keep in mind that these perverse outcomes are becoming common. Second occurrence in five elections...


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> On this basis William Mackenzie King was Hitler and the world has had thousands of Hitlers since 1945, which of course is idiocy.


100% nope. Try reading that again.

Just because most fascists are not as bad as Hitler does not mean that we should not remain vigilant against lesser forms of fascism. It's akin to saying we shouldn't worry about communism because it's absurd to say that communists are all Stalin.


----------



## mordko

"Turns out"? This has been the system for centuries, it has worked rather well and it's amazing anyone wouldn't know how the rules work.


----------



## Argonaut

andrewf said:


> Even if this was the intent of the electoral college, it is remarkably ineffective. It makes most states irrelevant to the presidential contest, including most of the large ones. California, NY and Texas only play a role as sources of cash, they do not influence the result.


Of course they influence the result, they have the highest electoral votes! You're taking a narrow view of the last few elections. Remember that 49 states voted for Reagan in 1984. There was a moment in this campaign where Texas was actually in play for Hillary. Swing states change all the time. In fact, they changed just this week. How many people thought Wisconsin and Pennsylvania would swing the election? The electoral college forces both parties to appeal to a wide range of the population, both in geography and ideology. 

Unfortunately the college means that in any _one_ election, you could feel like your vote doesn't matter. I, for instance, could have voted as I am an American citizen. But despite being very interested in this election, I didn't bother going through the hassle because I would have likely counted for California. It's not a perfect system, but it will never ever change because it would require changing the Constitution. Not going to happen.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> "Turns out"? This has been the system for centuries, it has worked rather well and it's amazing anyone wouldn't know how the rules work.


How many people realize that they are not electing a president when they vote?


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> Of course they influence the result, they have the highest electoral votes! You're taking a narrow view of the last few elections. Remember that 49 states voted for Reagan in 1984. There was a moment in this campaign where Texas was actually in play for Hillary. Swing states change all the time. In fact, they changed just this week. How many people thought Wisconsin and Pennsylvania would swing the election? The electoral college forces both parties to appeal to a wide range of the population, both in geography and ideology.
> 
> Unfortunately the college means that in any _one_ election, you could feel like your vote doesn't matter. I, for instance, could have voted as I am an American citizen. But despite being very interested in this election, I didn't bother going through the hassle because I would have likely counted for California. It's not a perfect system, but it will never ever change because it would require changing the Constitution. Not going to happen.


Texas would never have decided the election, just as California & NY didn't decide it for Reagan.

If the goal is to give voice to rural residents, bundling rural areas with cities in each state for a winner takes all vote basically does the opposite. Rural Californians have no hope of influencing the election. Same for residents of Austin, Texas. Direct election of the president would make every vote equally important and encourage campaigning/policies to address the whole country and not just swing states.

I'm not sure why anyone would discount the idea of constitutional amendments in the US. They are up to 27, now. Canada has a much harder time amending its constitution, as it was designed to be much more difficult to do.


----------



## sags

I said protests are a waste of time because they are.

Protests in the street aren't going to accomplish anything. Trump is the incoming President and no amount of protest is going to change that.

Protesters time would be better spent preparing for the next election in 2020.

Who will these protesters rally around to carry their banner in the next election ?

Would have, could have, might have.........doesn't add up to diddly squat now.


----------



## Argonaut

Amending the Constitution requires the support of 38 states. Not going to happen here. Why would the flyover states give all of their voting power away to the out-of-touch people in Los Angeles and New York? This is a big reason why Trump won in the first place. "Forgotten Americans, you are forgotten no longer".


----------



## olivaw

I don't think the protests are a waste of time. They're calling attention to a real issue - racism in America. 

Trump may not be a racist. He used language than inspired a racist subset to support him but it might have been politics. Many of his supporters think that. 

There's the emotional side too - it's a public expression of grief.


----------



## mordko

The best parallel for Trump is Silvio Berlusconi. I recall when Berlusconi was first elected, BBC called him "fascist". Of course he wasn't. He was a maverick, a buffoon, an immoral scoundrel, a populist but fascist he was not. Dumb hyperbola like this actually helps the object of attacks.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> How many people realize that they are not electing a president when they vote?


I imagine as many as there are Canadians who realize they are not electing Prime Minister when they vote. I knew how the US system worked as a child in the USSR; one hopes that anyone with any interest in politics has a rough idea how the US democractic system works.


----------



## doctrine

olivaw said:


> I don't think the protests are a waste of time. They're calling attention to a real issue - racism in America.
> 
> Trump may not be a racist. He used language than inspired a racist subset to support him but it might have been politics. Many of his supporters think that.
> 
> There's the emotional side too - it's a public expression of grief.


This protest is a waste of time. Thousands of people? 0.0001% of the population? Wake me up when the 1% of the population that could have made a difference by actually voting is protesting in the streets. Slacktivism is alive and well. Outrage on Facebook, back to Netflix.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> Amending the Constitution requires the support of 38 states. Not going to happen here. Why would the flyover states give all of their voting power away to the out-of-touch people in Los Angeles and New York? This is a big reason why Trump won in the first place. "Forgotten Americans, you are forgotten no longer".


Why would it give away their voting power? Their votes would be worth the same as anyone else's.

And if that was really the issue, you can just explicitly make votes in small states worth more. Every Montana vote is worth 2x...


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> The best parallel for Trump is Silvio Berlusconi. I recall when Berlusconi was first elected, BBC called him "fascist". Of course he wasn't. He was a maverick, a buffoon, an immoral scoundrel, a populist but fascist he was not. Dumb hyperbola like this actually helps the object of attacks.


Berlusconi wasn't a fascist? Again, I think you are setting the bar way too high... You don't have to go full Hitler to be a fascist.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> I imagine as many as there are Canadians who realize they are not electing Prime Minister when they vote. I knew how the US system worked as a child in the USSR; one hopes that anyone with any interest in politics has a rough idea how the US democractic system works.


Not sure I agree. In Canada, you are not putting your x beside the name of the PM (unless you live in their riding). How much more explicit could it be.


----------



## gibor365

> Unfortunately the college means that in any one election, you could feel like your vote doesn't matter


 obviously , it doesn't matter in majority of the States. The college means that Democrats don't need to campaign at all in places like DC and Republicans in states like Wyoming, they are winning them by default



> Well done, America. I can report that we in Canada are feeling a little Austria, 1933, right now


 Wow! Should we expect Anschluss ?!


----------



## gibor365

mordko said:


> Claiming that US system is lacking democratic legitimacy because it's not based on a simple plurality of votes is ludicrous. On this basis there are hardly any democracies. Canada comes to mind along with Britain and many others.


Oh, really?! Just google and you will see that majority of democracies are using popular votes elections


----------



## andrewf

^ Indeed. People defending the electoral college have their heads up their asses. Most presidential systems use direct election.


----------



## sags

President Trump will have ample opportunity to denounce racism, sexual assault, gun violence.....just as every other President has had to do from the bully pulpit.

Every time there is a major incident, President Trump will be making a public statement about it.

Why not wait until he actually makes an statement as President of the US, before judging how he will handle these situations.

If following an incident he publicly states....I have no problem with people doing that...Houston, we have a problem.


----------



## gibor365

with electoral college, 1 vote in one state cost more that 1 vote in another state. Is it real democracy?!

List of countries using Proportional_representation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation


----------



## olivaw

*Million Women March being planned for January 21, 2017 in D.C.*

The name of the was changed to "Women's March on Washington" after backlash against the appropriation of the name. It is being organized through Facebook. 

Sometimes planned marches materialize, sometimes not. Conservatives tried to organize a number of massive protests against Obama's presidency but turnout could often be counted in the dozens.


----------



## ian

Instead of wasting their time protesting a fair election outcome they might better spend their time, resources, and energies on something more beneficial. Maybe start preparing and organizing for the next senate races, the next general election, etc. From my perspective they are a bunch of small minded hooligans. This is not the way to effect change. It is counter productive to their cause.


----------



## sags

I agree. The mid-terms start in a few months and the next Presidential election in a couple of years.

Bernie Sanders is already talking about another run, although I like his ideas I think he will be too old at 78.

Bernie understands how it all works.


----------



## gibor365

> Maybe start preparing and organizing for the next senate races, the next general election, etc. From my perspective they are a bunch of small minded hooligans. This is not the way to effect change.


 Reminds me of bunch of British soccer hooligans after their favorite team lost


----------



## gibor365

> Bernie Sanders is already talking about another run, although I like his ideas I think he will be too old at 78.
> 
> Bernie understands how it all works.


He will be 78 old Jewish  , I don't believe that in out times Jewish can become POTUS, or President/PM of any country ..... except Israel


----------



## olivaw

I'm not sure how many Americans are on this board but my American friends don't consider the protests to be a waste of time. Americans love dissent. 

America is too polarized. Something good may come of the protests if people start listening to each other.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> *Million Women March being planned for January 21, 2017 in D.C.*
> 
> The name of the was changed to "Women's March on Washington" after backlash against the appropriation of the name. It is being organized through Facebook.
> 
> Sometimes planned marches materialize, sometimes not. Conservatives tried to organize a number of massive protests against Obama's presidency but turnout could often be counted in the dozens.


Not true (what else is new). The Tea Party demonstrations were quite large. 



> The Tea Party protests were a series of protests throughout the United States that began in early 2009. The protests were part of the larger political Tea Party movement.[1]
> Among other events, protests were held on:
> February 27, 2009, to protest the Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP) U.S. financial system bailouts signed by President George W. Bush in October 2008, and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 stimulus legislation signed by President Barack Obama;[2]
> April 15, 2009, to coincide with the annual U.S. deadline for submitting tax returns, known as Tax Day;[3][4]
> July 4, 2009, to coincide with Independence Day;[5]
> September 12, 2009, to coincide with the anniversary of the day after the September 11 attacks;[6]
> November 5, 2009, in Washington, D.C. to protest health insurance reform;[7]
> March 14–21, 2010, in D.C. during the final week of debate on the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.[8]
> 
> Most Tea Party activities have since been focused on opposing efforts of the Obama Administration, and on recruiting, nominating, and supporting candidates for state and national elections
> 
> ..........
> 
> ."[88][89] Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, estimated that at least 268,000 attended in over 200 cities.[90] Statistician *Nate Silver, manager of FiveThirtyEight.com, has said that a cumulative crowd size estimate from credible sources was of 311,460 attendees in 346 cities,* which accounted for all capitols and major cities little noticeable or no reliable media coverage in other protests could have contributed to a lower number of attendees and locations.[91] *The largest event, in Atlanta, drew between an estimated 7,000 to 15,000 protestors.*[91][92][93] Some of the gatherings drew only dozens.[88]


Try to got your facts straight,OK?


----------



## mordko

gibor365 said:


> Oh, really?! Just google and you will see that majority of democracies are using popular votes elections


You can easily get party A with more votes but party B with more MPs and hence in power. That's exactly the same scenario as in the US. Doesn't happen often. 

There is a logic to it and advantages as well as disadvantages. Gives a tad more weight to smaller, more remote places which may have slightly different interests. In Canada a vote cast in Nunavut or Quebec has a hell of a lot more weight than a vote cast in Ontario or Alberta. Ultimately it's the rules, everyone knows them in advance and they work and that's how you play.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> ^ Indeed. People defending the electoral college have their heads up their asses. Most presidential systems use direct election.


Totally. Like in Russia and Tajikistan. . Works great. People who have their heads up their asses would argue that US is a tad more democratic than the vast majority of countries you are referring to, but what do they know?


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> You can easily get party A with more votes but party B with more MPs and hence in power. That's exactly the same scenario as in the US. Doesn't happen often.


Yes, but this is a Parliamentary democracy. Your point is along the lines of the same thing happening in Congress.

Of course, there is a lot of handwringing in Canada when this happens, one of the impetuses behind the call for electoral reform here.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Totally. Like in Russia and Tajikistan. . Works great. People who have their heads up their asses would argue that US is a tad more democratic than the vast majority of countries you are referring to, but what do they know?


Why ask me, ask Trump:



> The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy.
> 
> — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 7, 2012


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Why ask me, ask Trump:


I am not exactly Trump's number one fan. He said a lot of idiotic things, not just this. Pretty much every time he opens his mouth.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Of course, there is a lot of handwringing in Canada when this happens, one of the impetuses behind the call for electoral reform here.


Yes, and I would oppose that too. Not the handwringing - you are very welcome to carry on. Then again, nobody cares what either of us thinks about the electoral college.


----------



## andrewf

Nobody cares what any of us had to say about the election, either. Didn't stop >5000 posts on the topic.


----------



## andrewf

If the electoral college is the right way to elect the President, why is a similar system not used in states for governor elections? The idea is pretty indefensible, it seems the best argument for keeping it is that it might be hard to eliminate.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> If the electoral college is the right way to elect the President, why is a similar system not used in states for governor elections? The idea is pretty indefensible, it seems the best argument for keeping it is that it might be hard to eliminate.


In Oak Ridges-Markham, in Toronto, there are 153,972 electors for 1 MP. In Nunavut, there are only 17,349 electors. So one Canadian in Nunavut is worth 10 votes in Toronto as far their weight is concerned in deciding which party will rule Canada. There is nothing anywhere near this level of distortion in the US election.


----------



## mordko

And yes, tradition is important. If a system has worked for centuries one needs to think very carefully before changing it.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Not true (what else is new)......


Gee, maybe I should have said _"sometimes planned marches materialize, sometimes not" _. :hopelessness:


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> If the electoral college is the right way to elect the President, why is a similar system not used in states for governor elections? The idea is pretty indefensible, it seems the best argument for keeping it is that it might be hard to eliminate.


IMO, the larger insult to American democracy is the *gerrymandering* of congressional district boundaries by politicians. North Carolina's 12th district is a snake like district that packs African American communities into a single congressional district. It's one example among many.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> In Oak Ridges-Markham, in Toronto, there are 153,972 electors for 1 MP. In Nunavut, there are only 17,349 electors. So one Canadian in Nunavut is worth 10 votes in Toronto as far their weight is concerned in deciding which party will rule Canada. There is nothing anywhere near this level of distortion in the US election.


Again, Canada has a Parliamentary system, not a presidential system. This is also a consequence of the Canadian constitution, which guarantees provinces and territories at least as many HoC seats as Senators. In order to meet this requirement and provide equal representation, we would need ~1500 MPs. 

And should Americans accept deficiencies in their electoral system merely because Canada's is deficient as well? Particularly given that Canada's current government has promised to change the system?


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> And yes, tradition is important. If a system has worked for centuries one needs to think very carefully before changing it.


It depends on one's definition of working. If granting the presidency to the loser of the popular vote is not considered a failure.

Witness all the people talking about how the people have spoken and chosen Trump. The people chose Hillary, the electoral college mishmash chose Trump.


----------



## new dog

Andrewf we don't really know this because there could have been enough voter fraud that Hillary really didn't get the popular vote.


----------



## sags

Along with the street protesters, it sounds like Senate Republicans will be doing some protesting as well.........lol

Senate Majority Leader says......nope to term limits, sorry to a big infrastructure spend, and I don't think so to NATO plans.

A good portion of the 100 day agenda of Donald Trump won't be supported by Republicans.

President Trump has a rocky road ahead.

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> Andrewf we don't really know this because there could have been enough voter fraud that Hillary really didn't get the popular vote.


Evidence or it didn't happen. You think that there were half a million fraudulent votes cast?


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Again, Canada has a Parliamentary system, not a presidential system. This is also a consequence of the Canadian constitution, which guarantees provinces and territories at least as many HoC seats as Senators. In order to meet this requirement and provide equal representation, we would need ~1500 MPs.
> 
> And should Americans accept deficiencies in their electoral system merely because Canada's is deficient as well? Particularly given that Canada's current government has promised to change the system?


Yeah, but then again they promised a small budget deficit which has already multiplied. They also promised to balance the books within a few years and we already know that's not happening. It is pretty much irrelevant what they promised because it's very clear they didn't mean a word of any of it. 

Back to election system... Have you looked at the map? It's all red with a few dots of blue here and there. Those blue dots are heavily populated cities and metropolitan districts on the coast. The type of person who lives there and the economies of these cities are different. They could overwhelm and screw the rest of the country, which is why giving less populated areas a little more weight makes a lot of sense. It's exactly the same logic as with Nunavut. 



> This is also a consequence of the Canadian constitution...





> The idea is pretty indefensible


So you show respect for Canadian constitution and blatant disrespect to the US constitution? How is that reasonable?


----------



## Argonaut

Trump is already creating tons of jobs for the economy. Also redistributing wealth from Soros to the uneducated. Very nice of him.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxEnovbW8AEj3uW.jpg:large


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> Trump is already creating tons of jobs for the economy. Also redistributing wealth from Soros to the uneducated. Very nice of him.
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxEnovbW8AEj3uW.jpg:large


Do you have a proof or are you simply interested in making Soros a little richer? Trump will be the president by defamation laws have not been cancelled.


----------



## wraphter

You know you've got an illegal immigration problem when the mayor of New York says he will erase the data base of 500,000 illegals in NYC




> The city’s municipal ID program anticipated that Republicans might control Congress after this year’s elections, leading Mayor de Blasio on Thursday to say he’s looking to safeguard records submitted by undocumented immigrants “in light of what’s happened.”
> 
> The reference was to Donald Trump’s stunning victory, which gave Republicans control of the White House and both houses of Congress.
> 
> The municipal ID program, which was enacted in January 2015, includes a one-time provision giving the mayor power to scrub the data of cardholders on or before Dec. 31 just in case of such an eventuality.
> 
> During a press conference at City Hall, the mayor said he’s now considering his options.
> 
> ...........
> 
> The cards, which are provided free to all residents regardless of immigration status, were aimed at undocumented immigrants.
> 
> However, many other New Yorkers have also joined the program to take advantage of benefits that include free admission or discounts at many of the city’s museums, parks and cultural attractions.


De Blasio thanks businessman for hiring undocumented workers



> Answering a Brooklyn supermarket owner who called his radio show Thursday, the mayor said no penalties should be issued because immigration rules are 'ridiculous'
> 
> n a radio interview Thursday, Mayor Bill De Blasio cheered a Brooklyn supermarket owner who acknowledged hiring undocumented workers.
> 
> “Of course you’re running a business and if someone’s willing to work hard for you, you’re going to hire that person,” de Blasio told the caller, who was identified as Thomas in Brooklyn. “And you’re giving them a job that they get to feed a family on, and I thank you for that.”
> 
> The caller told the mayor he owns a supermarket in Brooklyn. “A large number of my employees are undocumented workers and, you know, I have to say that, you know, they are hard workers, they do get paid well,” he said. “Just as a businessman I’m caught between having these undocumented workers, which I’m not supposed to employ,” and the benefits of doing so.
> 
> De Blasio said neither the business owner nor the employees should be penalized, calling the current rules governing immigration “ridiculous."


So the mayor of New York is encouraging businesses to hire illegals and break the law.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Yeah, but then again they promised a small budget deficit which has already multiplied. They also promised to balance the books within a few years and we already know that's not happening. It is pretty much irrelevant what they promised because it's very clear they didn't mean a word of any of it.
> 
> Back to election system... Have you looked at the map? It's all red with a few dots of blue here and there. Those blue dots are heavily populated cities and metropolitan districts on the coast. The type of person who lives there and the economies of these cities are different. They could overwhelm and screw the rest of the country, which is why giving less populated areas a little more weight makes a lot of sense. It's exactly the same logic as with Nunavut.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you show respect for Canadian constitution and blatant disrespect to the US constitution? How is that reasonable?


The story you are spinning here is that people who live in rural areas can be identified solely on that dimension and that they all vote uniformly. Reality is much more complicated, and these areas do not vote exclusively for one party. Various parts of their identify (aside from whether they live in a rural or urban area) influences their political beliefs. Alberta being solidly blue belies that 25% of voters in the last election supported LPC candidates. Similarly in the Atlantic for CPC candidates.

Your point is still moot, because the electoral college doesn't act at the level of counties. If a rural area is bundled into a state with sufficiently large cities, you get the exact issue you are complaining about at the national level. Besides, in the US system, rural areas are very strongly represented in the Senate. There is no reason why the presidency should also be biased toward rural areas. 

If we had a problem with Nunavut's overrepresentation (which, in reality, is minor and not likely to influence the outcome of elections), we could change our constitution as well (political feasibility aside). As I said, Canada's electoral system's imperfection is not a good justification for the keeping deficiencies with the US system. Botswana doesn't have a perfect system either, I guess the US should just give up now.


----------



## andrewf

Besides, once you go down the path of arguing rural votes should count for more than urban votes in electing the president, it opens the question of how much more. What is the right weighting? If you want, you can give people in cities 3/5ths of a ballot.


----------



## Nelley

Very important solemn video on this election and aftermath https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v-LQgRj81A


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Besides, once you go down the path of arguing rural votes should count for more than urban votes in electing the president, it opens the question of how much more. What is the right weighting? If you want, you can give people in cities 3/5ths of a ballot.


I am not saying rural areas vote uniformly. I am saying certain states have different economic interests. Just like rust belt got screwed over while New York did swimmingly this time around. So, there is a logic in ensuring that prospering New York and California don't trumple over the little guys too much. Because there is clearly a huge difference in voting patterns. 

Anyway, if you feel so strongly that American constitution should be changed, you should do something about it, stop USA from being exactly like Botswana and quit bitching. i wish you luck in this endeavor.


----------



## andrewf

The Senate fills that role, no need to do the same with the Presidency.


----------



## mordko

Sure. Go ahead and explain it to silly Yanks. Sort them out. Shouldn't be a problem, especially so that as you pointed out, Trump is on the same wavelength.

Except that a lot of economic policies impacting suffering Midwest are the direct result of the presidency, but whatever. 

Some believe that a far more important problem will be to defend the constitution, given that president elect has already attacked the second amendment. What do they know?


----------



## andrewf

I know you're done with the discussion, but I have to say it would probably be better for the country if both parties felt it worthwhile to seriously contest the whole country, because every vote was worth something. The whole concept of a 'swing state' means that if you're not in one of the battlegrounds, you're ignored by one party and taken for granted by the other. The whole idea that most seats/states should be safe/uncontested is corrosive to democracy.


----------



## mordko

... at your peril. As Hillary can vouch.


----------



## sags

People are like Van Jones..........what will I tell my children, what about the children......

How about they tell their children the truth. 

The world isn't fair. They won't always get what they want. There are some bad people in the world. They will have to work hard for what they want and they aren't any more exceptional than other kids.

And you know what.........the wealthier or privileged you are the more difficult it is to deliver that message.

And no.....sorry, but there are no guarantees that anyone can be President, or a famous writer, or a NHL hockey player.......life just doesn't work that way and telling kids "you can be anything you want" is not telling them the truth.

Aspire does not mean acquire.


----------



## new dog

andrewf said:


> Evidence or it didn't happen. You think that there were half a million fraudulent votes cast?


Your saying Hillary should probably win on popular vote but that can be disputed in such a close vote. The counting would be very important all over the country and how voting and counting is done would be even more crucial. Right now you have a few recounts being done but in a popular vote you would have to recount the entire country.


----------



## sags

Now protesters are talking about lobbying local officials to change their electoral vote before they cast it.

That isn't going to happen.........or at least it shouldn't happen.

Some of these people just can't seem to accept that they lost. 

Did any of them ever play any sports and learned how to accept losing gracefully ?


----------



## andrewf

^The solution to having to recount the whole country is to make most of the votes cast irrelevant.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> ... at your peril. As Hillary can vouch.


Both parties do it. They spend multiples more resources fighting for votes in a handful of states than they do in the rest of the country. Never mind the impact it has on policy.


----------



## bass player

CNN has stopped to a new low in their ongoing quest to promote rioting...they "interviewed" one of their own camera people!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOLo7DibduI


----------



## olivaw

Worth watching until the end.......


----------



## sags

Nice voice.....one of the world's most inspirational songs.......and amen, it is not time to give up, or I think to protest on streets.

It is time to regroup, get stronger and come back in 4 years.

Personally, I think the Democrats should shake the whole primary and election process up a bit, while Trump and the Republicans duke it out over policy. They need a share of media coverage to present themselves as an alternative, throughout the Trump Presidency.

They should have a short nominating process from January 2017 to March 2017 and select a new leader who can be the voice of Democrats until the next election. The leader can be the unified voice of the party.

In the US, the parties that aren't in power are rudderless. 

They have no leader until the election is at hand and speak only in singular voices, often to empty halls in the legislatures.

That is one of the noticeable differences between Canadian and US politics. 

Our political parties generally always have a leader who speaks for the party and keeps pressure on the government and voters informed on the issues of the day.


----------



## sags

Of topic, but I have heard Leonard Cohen's masterpiece sung by all kinds of artists and duets, in English, Russia, Yiddish, and Spanish, played on piano, harp, violin, and guitar and it is simply a song that is reflective, magical, spiritual, happy, sad, or whatever it needs to be for people.

Too bad the same can't be said for many politicians.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> Of topic, but I have heard Leonard Cohen's masterpiece sung by all kinds of artists and duets, in English, Russia, Yiddish, and Spanish, played on piano, harp, violin, and guitar and it is simply a song that is reflective, magical, spiritual, happy, sad, or whatever it needs to be for people.
> 
> Too bad the same can't be said for many politicians.


My favourite version is Jeff Buckley- incredibly moving. Here's an astonishing solo live performance:


----------



## olivaw

That song is just one of many Leonard Cohen's masterpieces. I found the SNL opener to be a fitting goodbye to both Leonard Cohen and Hillary Clinton the nominee. She offered a simple, hopeful message at the end. 

I am OK with the protests. They aren't going to prevent Trump from becoming president but protests are always about more than specific demands. They're about engaging and inspiring people. If they get young people involved then they will have done a better job than Jay-Z, Katy Perry and Springsteen. 

There is talk of trying to replicate the Tea Party phenomenon. The plan is to engage young people and install more liberal candidates. It's only two years until mid terms so it's worth their while to start right away. A week ago, I would have said it was a terrible idea. I've since changed my mind. The tea party primaried the Republicans and they appeared to be heading into the abyss. Now they will control most state governorships, the house, the senate and the Whitehouse.


----------



## olivaw

Russell Brand can be over the top but he makes some interesting points about Trump's victory.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I said protests are a waste of time because they are.
> 
> Protests in the street aren't going to accomplish anything. Trump is the incoming President and no amount of protest is going to change that.


My understanding is that they are not disputing the election result. I think their ambition is to make the country hear the voice of people concerned about the rights of minorities (as I outlined in my first post).

However the protest is getting drowned out by the acts of violence. There was a shooting at the end of the Portland protests and lots of vandalism. The protests are not being effective and there are too many violent people within the crowd.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/11/mayor_police_hold_press_confer.html

On my walk home back from the office, I had to carefully plan my route to avoid activities of police and protesters. From a distance I could hear the loudspeakers declaring the gathering illegal (reading the riot act) followed later by declarations over loudspeakers that everyone within the zone was under arrest.

Those who want to speak up for minority rights and oppose a president who was endorsed by KKK and white supremacists will have to use alternate avenues to accomplish those goals. This means things like raising funds and taking action through organizations like the NAACP and ACLU


----------



## james4beach

If we're in agreement that the protests are not effective, can other suggest a better way?

*How do we assert the rights of minorities and make sure that "***********" doesn't take over the USA? And by extension, how do we stop this from spreading to Canada -- since parts of Canada are going to mimic the US activity.*

The Trump-inspired *********** movement must be stopped from poisoning Canada.


----------



## sags

Where have these protesters been? It has been two years of non stop debate about racism, minorities, sexual assault........

Just like the Democratic Party and liberal media, these protesters complete miss the reason so many people voted for Trump.

They voted to "drain the swamp". Clinton was considered an insider who didn't get things done.

Trump had issues. Clinton had issues. Only Trump was the "outsider" in their minds.

If Trump truly endorses white supremacy, his popularity won't last long......even among his own supporters.

His support at this level is tenuous at best.

I consider myself a liberal, a life long union blue collar worker, and a bit of a socialist.

But far left liberals are really starting to embarrass me into looking around for somewhere else to hang my political hat.


----------



## sags

I support everyone's right to peaceful protest, but that doesn't mean I have to agree that it is a useful enterprise.

I just don't see what the goal of this protest is. There is no central theme, no overriding issue except that Trump got elected.

The media shows signs carried by the protesters. They are all over the spectrum of grievances with society.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Where have these protesters been? It has been two years of non stop debate about racism, minorities, sexual assault........
> 
> Just like the Democratic Party and liberal media, these protesters complete miss the reason so many people voted for Trump.
> 
> They voted to "drain the swamp". Clinton was considered an insider who didn't get things done.
> 
> Trump had issues. Clinton had issues. Only Trump was the "outsider" in their minds.
> 
> If Trump truly endorses white supremacy, his popularity won't last long......even among his own supporters.
> 
> His support at this level is tenuous at best.
> 
> I consider myself a liberal, a life long union blue collar worker, and a bit of a socialist.
> 
> But far left liberals are really starting to embarrass me into looking around for somewhere else to hang my political hat.


I agree with you, sags...are you waking up and coming over to the dark side? 

Too much is made of a few racist Trump supporters while the racist, anarchists, and thugs on the left are ignored. Trump didn't win because of racists. He won for several reasons:

- people were sick of Hillary's corruption and the promise of 4 more years of it
- people were angry that she blatantly breached national security and got away with it
- people are sick political correctness, safe spaces, and trigger warnings
- people are sick of race baiting by the left
- people are sick of open season on cops
- people are sick of corruption
- people are upset that the left seem to riot every time they don't get their way while their "leaders" sit back and do absolutely nothing
- Obama was a failure as a leader, his race has nothing to do with it
- people don't like being told to vote for Hillary or they are sexist
- people even voted against the media


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> If we're in agreement that the protests are not effective, can other suggest a better way?
> 
> *How do we assert the rights of minorities and make sure that "***********" doesn't take over the USA? And by extension, how do we stop this from spreading to Canada -- since parts of Canada are going to mimic the US activity.*
> 
> The Trump-inspired *********** movement must be stopped from poisoning Canada.


You are distorting the meaning of the white vote. Blue collar White voters were primarily concerned with their economic situation and the lack of good jobs. There may be a violently racist element but it is a minor influence. The KKK and white racism are peripheral to the serious economic
concerns of the vast majority of non-college educated whites where Trump did so well in Rust Belt states like Pennsylvania,Michigan and
Wisconsin. This election was not about minority rights. It was about majority rights. The majority who felt alienated from Washington, ,who felt that the future looked very dismal for them and their children.

You can't see the forest for the trees. You want to make issues which are minor and peripheral into topics that are
major and central. 

Trump didn't emphasize immigration from Mexico because he was a racist who didn't like Mexicans. He did it because his backers felt
threatened economically and demographically by this great ,uncontrolled influx.

There are 500,000 illegals in NYC. De Blasio gave them municipal ID cards.Now he threatens to destroy the data base to prevent federal agencies getting their hands on it. He encourages employers to hire illegals on his radio show.
Is this any way to run a country? 

You can chant your politically correct condemnatory mantra of racism and xenophobia and homophobia and antisemitism all you want but it just misconstrues what is important from what is not important.

You want to construct some politically correct litmus test and all who don't meet your high standard are terrible people and to be condemned.You want to label the normal as pathological. Sorry,it not going to fly..You lost the election.


----------



## mordko

Having thought about it... The protests are not a waste of time. As long as they are peaceful, it's all good. It's a headcount. Both you can count the people who think alike and Trump can count people who won't sit on their backsides as Trump attacks women or free press. It's a warning shot.

And Russell Brand is atrociously awful.


----------



## wraphter

By definition,protests are a degeneration of mental processes. The normal inhibitions against violent acting out are reduced by being part
of a group. Protests are inherently violent. They are inherently irrational as opposed to rational.They represent a going over to the dark side of human nature. A so-called peaceful protest can turn into something else in a second.

Of course sometimes they are justified if the government is oppressive. The Maidan Revolution in Ukraine started as demonstations. They turned to violent confrontation with the police. In the end, the government fell. We all witnessed the Arab Spring protests in the main square in Cairo. Something like that could readily happen in the US. The occupy movement was very determined.
The G-20 demonstrations in Toronto were quite upsetting and emotional.



> More than 1,000 people arrested in large groups and held in "inhumane conditions" at a makeshift detention centre during the 2010 G20 summit in Toronto won the right to proceed with two class-action lawsuits against police authorities Wednesday.
> 
> The Ontario Court of Appeal approved the two class actions over "kettling" — confining scores of people at downtown Toronto intersections for several hours — and alleged civil rights abuses that occurred nearly six years ago during the three-day global summit.


----------



## carverman

Not sure if this is a Chinese curse or not......"may you live in interesting times", but it seems appropriate now for America being so divided in their political views.
After all they are only 200 years after their Civil War that also started from different political views.

Donald Trump; now that he has had the Presidency handed to him in a bag, what is he going to do with it?


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> By definition,protests are a degeneration of mental processes. The normal inhibitions against violent acting out are reduced by being part of a group. Protests are inherently violent. They are inherently irrational as opposed to rational.They represent a going over to the dark side of human nature. A so-called peaceful protest can turn into something else in a second.



oh dear. Here we had always been thinking that gandhi & rosa parkes & martin luther king were onto something. How come we were so mistaken?





> The G-20 demonstrations in Toronto were quite upsetting and emotional.



the 2010 G20 demonstrations in toronto are a good example of peaceful protest by all kinds of citizens - all ages, all walks of life - who were harmed when police carried out an iron-fisted control.

as best i can recall, the federal government had advance info that anarchists from the US would attend. They were joined by canadian youths with crowbars, garbed in black. It was to control those anarchists that ontario declared martial law.

after that an unfortunate cascade of events occurred. I believe one toronto police commander in particular was responsible for ordering excessive brutality & he had been named & disciplined prior to the recent trial.

.


----------



## sags

Martin Luther King was a great leader. Ghandi was a great leader. The leaders defined the cause.

These protest today are organized by social media. Someone posts the time and place and people show up. 

There is no dedication to a particular cause and they are leaderless by design. Nobody wants to assume any liability for what may happen.

If the protesters really want to be effective they need to get properly organized. Millennials believe they can do everything the easy way through social media.

It doesn't work that way. Leaderless movements quickly flame out. They have no common bonds or staying power.

Workers unionize. People start political parties. Someone has to take the lead, someone that others will follow.

Those who could be leaders seem to end up being seduced into politics where they are buried under party policies.

Donald Trump, to his credit.....didn't get seduced into politics. He came in and steamrolled right over everybody.

I guess we will find out if it was a good or bad thing.


----------



## humble_pie

hillary clinton has come out & said that she basically lost the election because the FBI chief once again raised the e-mails issue mere days before the election date.

from what i could see up here in canada, this looks to be the truth. A renewed alt-right frenzy burst out with comey's bombshell, with every bloodhound baying that clinton had delivered classified information straight into a network of pedophiles who had sold it ...

by the time james comey admitted, 2 days before the election, that he had no grounds whatsoever to proceed, it was too late. The clinton campaign estimated that late-minute switching by educated suburbanites influenced by the comey dustup had swung the electoral college vote in key states.

nevertheless clinton earned more popular votes than trump, by a number estimated by various sources at half-a-million to 2 million. In other words, she lost by a hair. Some analysts that noted that if jill stein had not run in 3 key flip states, stein's 130,000 votes in those states would have gone to clinton & hillary clinton would now be the US president.

.


----------



## sags

The Trump voters said that Hillary Clinton's email scandals were a big factor in their decision to vote for Trump.

The constant email revelations continually reminded them of security breaches etc and the voters concluded Clinton was worse than Trump.

In their minds, Trump was the lesser of two evils and he was an outsider.

Yes, I have read that between Johnson and Stein sucking votes away........the results may have been different.

The only problem with that conclusion is that nobody knows for sure if all those people would have voted for Clinton, but it is a pretty good guess the vast majority of them would.

It should also be noted that in Utah, there was a strong third party candidate in a popular young man of Morman faith.

It was thought he would draw a lot of votes away from Trump and he did, but Trump still defeated Clinton by 20%.

trump 46.3% 419,031
clinton 27.7% 250,981
mcmullin 20.9% 189,154
johnson 3.3% 29,921
stein 0.7% 6,680


----------



## sags

The Nader Factor........during the 2000 election it is pretty much confirmed that Ralph Nader's third party candidacy cost Al Gore the victory.

_For example, Nader received almost 100,000 votes in Florida in 2000, a state George W. Bush won by 537 votes over Al Gore. Gallup's pre-election polls as well as exit polls showed that Nader voters were more likely to support Gore than Bush. If Nader had not run that year, it is reasonable to assume that enough of a majority of Nader votes would have been cast for Gore, giving him Florida's electoral votes and the presidency._

http://www.gallup.com/poll/10798/nader-factor.aspx

The Democrats were very bitter with Nader after that election, and I read that Gary Johnson and Jill Stein have received a lot of emails from angry Democrats this election. Perhaps they will join Ralph Nader in the history books.


----------



## wraphter

humble said:


> oh dear. Here we had always been thinking that gandhi & rosa parkes & martin luther king were onto something. How come we were so mistaken?



Well humble_pie , you seem to have forgotten the Black Power Movement . They believed in violence.
There were race riots in 1965 in Watts,1967 in Newark,1968 in 125 cities after the assassination of MLK,1991 in Crown Heights,1992 Rodney King,2014 Ferguson,2015 Baltimore

Then there was the anti-war movement which engaged in bombings. Indeed Bill Ayers,Obama's supporter and close associate in
Chicago,was a founder along with his wife of the Weathermen .



> Ayers was part of the five-member central committee heading the Weathermen starting at its creation in the summer of 1969.[13] By 1969, Dohrn had joined them. Larry Grathwohl, an FBI informant who was with the Weatherman from autumn 1969 through spring 1970, considered Ayers and Dohrn the two top leaders of the organization.[14] In early 1970, the group had begun a series of bombings, primarily of government buildings,[15] that would continue into 1975. The group intentionally chose its targets to avoid human injury,[16] however, a bomb previously being designed in March, 1970, for use at an NCO dance at Fort Dix, New Jersey had claimed the lives of three members of the Weathermen who died during an accidental explosion while assembling it.[16] After the accidental explosion, the remaining members moved and took false identities.
> ........
> 
> They were both spared federal prosecution due to government misconduct while investigating the two. Dohrn received three years' probation and was fined $1,500 for the Illinois state charges, but later served seven months in jail for refusal to testify to a grand jury about their former colleagues in the Weathermen.[17]
> Ayers and Dohrn are described as fixtures of their Hyde Park, Chicago neighborhood, "embraced, by and large, in the liberal circles dominating politics" there, according to Ben Smith, a writer for The Politico,[7] and their political and activist colleagues believe their achievements of the recent decades overshadow their Vietnam-era radical activities.[6] Ayers has been described as "very respected and prominent in Chicago [with] a national reputation as an educator."[2]


Gandhi's methods were not evident during the G20 demonstrations. There was vandalism, attacks on police, and destruction of police cars. It wasn't evident in Ferguson,Missouri where there was looting and burning of buildings. as there was in Baltimore.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> The Trump voters said that Hillary Clinton's email scandals were a big factor in their decision to vote for Trump.



i guess this debate will go on forever. Not even the history books will be able to resolve it. More light has to be shed on why james comey interfered with the US election at the last minute, for no valid reason.

i belong to the camp which says that hillary made an e-mail mistake but has never been charged with a crime. In the massive Who will win the US election thread, we saw how the alt-right righteous whipped themselves up into frenzies of poison hatred over this issue.

in the same vein, we saw how the same _malfaiteurs_ falsely accused clinton of suffering from alzheimers, parkinsons, cancer, dementia.

those homemade basement *media* where one crackpot talking head ranting lies sounds as convincing as a 20-year veteran NY Times or Globe and Mail reporter - those proliferating unedited websites have managed to create mob rule. A new dark age has arrived.

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Humble Pie you are overlooking the fact that the FBI had no choice. They pushed as hard as they could for Hillary but they are bound to obey the law, sometimes.

The first investigation was deliberately crippled by Comey, according to FBI agents who were in a position to know. In spite of this, they turned up some very bad information. Comey in his July announcement admitted this but said he chose not to prosecute, leaving the decision up to the voters. Well it wasn't his decision, as a police officer it is his duty to investigate, gather information, and hand it over to a Grand Jury or District Attorney who makes the decision to prosecute. But he overlooked this little detail, and lot of other details, to let her off the hook. This did not go over well with a lot of FBI agents. They do not like to see the FBI turn into that kind of outfit, many protested and threatened to resign.

So, Comey was in the tank for Hllary. Then the New York police investigated Mr Weiner, a known kiddy diddler and husband of Hillary's right hand woman, Huma Abedin. When they discovered evidence that he was sexting an underage girl in North Carolina they quite rightly handed his laptop over to the FBI. The New York police do not have jurisdiction outside New York, in such cases it is standard procedure to call in the FBI and when they found 650,000 Emails from Clinton headquarters they were legally obliged to notify Congress.

All these events, they had no choice in. Here comes the part they did have a choice in. They went through those 650,000 emails like lightning, working morning noon and night right through the weekend so they could announce on Sunday that they found nothing suspicious. 

In other words Comey, an old friend of the Clintons, bent over backwards and doubled himself up in knots to help Hillary all he could short of being fired and impeached himself.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Well humble_pie , you seem to have forgotten the Black Power Movement . They believed in violence.
> There were race riots in 1965 in Watts,1967 in Newark,1968 in 125 cities after the assassination of MLK,1991 in Crown Heights,1992 Rodney King,2014 Ferguson,2015 Baltimore
> 
> Then there was the anti-war movement which engaged in bombings. Indeed Bill Ayers,Obama's supporter and close associate in
> Chicago,was a founder along with his wife of the Weathermen .
> 
> Gandhi's methods were not evident during the G20 demonstrations. There was vandalism, attacks on police, and destruction of police cars. It wasn't evident in Ferguson,Missouri where there was looting and burning of buildings. as there was in Baltimore.



shall we first take your last paragraph on the G20? there were hundreds of thousands of peaceful demonstrators in toronto who were busted by a police force over-reacting under a new martial law for which they (the police) had not been properly trained.

there were non-demonstrators simply making their way to work or from work in toronto, who got busted & jailed as well.

there were busloads of peaceful student demonstrators from montreal who were sleeping in their pre-arranged university dormitory when the police burst in & arrested them in their pyjamas in the wee hours of the morning. Evidently in the makeshift jail the students were then crammed into, the women were forced to urinate in open stalls while policemen ogled them ... altogether the G20 was a dark day for canadian law & order keepers.

me i am not against police or military force, in fact on the contrary, i am a big supporter of the same. But the officers who carry out peacekeeping duties have to be expertly trained in crowd & weapon control. This didn't happen at the G20.


* * * * *


wraphter the real reason i'm replying is to ask a rhetorical question. I don't imagine you will reply, but i'd like to ask anyhow. It goes like this: What are you doing here?

all your references position you as an american or at most a now-canadian with US roots. Quite possibly a scribe (your references are good.)

this is a financial forum yet you are making zero financial contributions. The same is true of filthy-mouthed nelliekins & bass.

others have asked, What are you guys doing here? is it possible that trump supporters at large have seen fit to spend good money to send posters like yourself to this obscure little chat board, in the hopes of influencing cmf members with dual citizenship who are eligible to vote? is that what's going on?

then when the pursestrings saw how badly nellie & bass were failing, they looked around for a more articulate heavyweight such as yourself?

just wondering out loud wraphters. Not expecting you to answer with the truth.

.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> The Trump voters said that Hillary Clinton's email scandals were a big factor in their decision to vote for Trump.


One factor of many. Clinton herself is sure blaming it all on Comey as I said they would right after the election, but it was much more than the email scandal. Hillary hasn't been around just since 2008 when she was Secretary of State, but for the last 42 years! Americans were tired of her political liabilities. If Trump had not been her opponent, she would have lost big. Clinton learned nothing from her run in 2008. 

Baggage galore. We should all have predicted her defeat, but were as blind as Clinton's blind and "naked ambition." http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/rex-murphy-fear-and-loathing-on-the-campaign-trail-16


----------



## wraphter

> wraphter the real reason i'm replying is to ask a rhetorical question. I don't imagine you will reply, but i'd like to ask anyhow. It goes like this: What are you doing here?


I was born in Toronto and live in Toronto.

You didn't mention the Black bloc 



> As suddenly as they burst onto the streets, they vanished into the crowd.
> 
> The men and women, clad in black clothes, their faces obscured with bandanas, ski goggles and gas masks, had spent the last hour storming through city streets, hurling rocks and debris through the windows of banks and big-chain stores.
> 
> They embraced the Black Bloc tactic, a popular sight at almost every international protest since the late 1990s: The crowd, dressed in their black uniforms, moves as a blob, its members indistinguishable from one another. One will run from the pack and lob a rock through a window, before disappearing back into the mob.
> 
> On Saturday, as the riot police shuffled closer to the intersection at College and University Aves.— shields up, gas masks on, guns raised — they disappeared again.
> 
> Dozens huddled on a patch of grass outside Queen’s Park. Protected by their peers, the ones in the middle changed into their street clothes. Within minutes, all that was left was a pile of black garments.
> 
> “Don’t take a f--king picture of me,” said one man, now wearing a brown T-shirt, as he walked away.
> 
> As they dispersed through the crowd, onlookers were left wondering: Who are these aggressive protesters?
> 
> Many in the black uniforms are self-proclaimed anarchists; some who are members of the Southern Ontario Anarchist Resistance, a group the police say they have been watching for a year.
> 
> Expressed through an assortment of chants, the group’s causes are many: They’re anti-capitalist, anti-police, anti-colonial. While the labour members marched to have their voices heard, the anarchists are resolute that world leaders aren’t listening and don’t care.
> 
> Any change has to come at their own hands.
> 
> For the most part, their targets are specific and symbolic: As the crowd tore across Queen St., they hammered police cruisers, attacked banks and other corporate companies. Yet they left a record store, a local tavern and an independent hardware shop untouched.
> 
> Others pelted the Zanzibar strip bar with manikin limbs they had snatched from a nearby clothing store.
> 
> “This is all part of the sexist, male-dominated war machine we live in,” explained one member.
> 
> Factions within that group, however, appeared to just relish the mayhem. As the protest marched up Yonge St., they became more indiscriminate in what they damaged.
> 
> Two young activists sprinted onto Yonge-Dundas Square and battered the tourist information booth, sparking jeers from some crowd members.
> 
> On College St, a pack of masked protesters began to vandalize an empty BMW 4X4. A civilian car, albeit it an expensive civilian car.
> 
> “Stop it. They’re not our enemies,” one protester shouted.
> 
> .........
> 
> “Violence just brings more violence,” a woman said into a megaphone as an anarchist set fire to a police cruiser. “What you guys are doing, it’s breaking my heart.”


It was a really disturbing event in Toronto.Very unusual.

Peaceful protests can go bad very quickly.


----------



## olivaw

Re: Comey. He absolutely interfered with the election and it helped Donald Trump. Comey was a Republican before he became director of the FBI. Obama appointed him as an olive branch to the Republicans in congress. 

If anyone tells you that he was a friend of Clintons and that he surpassed the investigation, ask for a link to a _reputable_ news source. 

The Comey letters are spilt milk now, but Comey brought disrepute to the FBI. Time for him to step aside.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> shall we first take your last paragraph on the G20? there were hundreds of thousands of peaceful demonstrators in toronto who were busted by a police force over-reacting under a new martial law for which they (the police) had not been properly trained.
> 
> there were non-demonstrators simply making their way to work or from work in toronto, who got busted & jailed as well.
> 
> there were busloads of peaceful student demonstrators from montreal who were sleeping in their pre-arranged university dormitory when the police burst in & arrested them in their pyjamas in the wee hours of the morning. Evidently in the makeshift jail the students were then crammed into, the women were forced to urinate in open stalls while policemen ogled them ... altogether the G20 was a dark day for canadian law & order keepers.
> 
> me i am not against police or military force, in fact on the contrary, i am a big supporter of the same. But the officers who carry out peacekeeping duties have to be expertly trained in crowd & weapon control. This didn't happen at the G20.
> 
> 
> * * * * *
> 
> 
> wraphter the real reason i'm replying is to ask a rhetorical question. I don't imagine you will reply, but i'd like to ask anyhow. It goes like this: What are you doing here?
> 
> all your references position you as an american or at most a now-canadian with US roots. Quite possibly a scribe (your references are good.)
> 
> this is a financial forum yet you are making zero financial contributions. The same is true of filthy-mouthed nelliekins & bass.
> 
> others have asked, What are you guys doing here? is it possible that trump supporters at large have seen fit to spend good money to send posters like yourself to this obscure little chat board, in the hopes of influencing cmf members with dual citizenship who are eligible to vote? is that what's going on?
> 
> then when the pursestrings saw how badly nellie & bass were failing, they looked around for a more articulate heavyweight such as yourself?
> 
> just wondering out loud wraphters. Not expecting you to answer with the truth.
> 
> .


You are attempting to be exclusionary because you don't have the intellectual equipment to deal with my arguments. I have contributed to the financial threads a few times.

A lot of the things you say are not factually correct. You said there was no possibility Petraeus was going to jail . Not true .
You said there was no investigation into the Clinton Foundation. Not true.

You are a manipulator and an instigator afaiac. 

You are playing games.

Your posts are too personal.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Humble Pie you are overlooking the fact that the FBI had no choice. They pushed as hard as they could for Hillary but they are bound to obey the law, sometimes.
> 
> The first investigation was deliberately crippled by Comey, according to FBI agents who were in a position to know. In spite of this, they turned up some very bad information. Comey in his July announcement admitted this but said he chose not to prosecute, leaving the decision up to the voters. Well it wasn't his decision, as a police officer it is his duty to investigate, gather information, and hand it over to a Grand Jury or District Attorney who makes the decision to prosecute. But he overlooked this little detail, and lot of other details, to let her off the hook. This did not go over well with a lot of FBI agents. They do not like to see the FBI turn into that kind of outfit, many protested and threatened to resign.
> 
> So, Comey was in the tank for Hllary. Then the New York police investigated Mr Weiner, a known kiddy diddler and husband of Hillary's right hand woman, Huma Abedin. When they discovered evidence that he was sexting an underage girl in North Carolina they quite rightly handed his laptop over to the FBI. The New York police do not have jurisdiction outside New York, in such cases it is standard procedure to call in the FBI and when they found 650,000 Emails from Clinton headquarters they were legally obliged to notify Congress.
> 
> All these events, they had no choice in. Here comes the part they did have a choice in. They went through those 650,000 emails like lightning, working morning noon and night right through the weekend so they could announce on Sunday that they found nothing suspicious.
> 
> In other words Comey, an old friend of the Clintons, bent over backwards and doubled himself up in knots to help Hillary all he could short of being fired and impeached himself.




Rusty the above is nothing more than your own highly-charged personal point of view & you appear to have twisted everything backwards.

what's that statement about James Comey would have been fired & impeached if he had not struck with his preposterous rumours in the final days of the election campaign about? the reality is more like comey should be fired for having done the same.

as for the FBI & the NYPD - who obtained weiner's computer in the first place - there are well-known rightwing factions in both those organisms. It was the NYPD, led by Rudi Giuliani, who started the 2nd e-mail mutiny in the final days of the election. Of course they brayed for hilllary clinton's head.

james comey should have said nothing to congress, nothing in public, until his bureau had analyzed anthony weiner's machine to identify what, precisely, it contained.

Rusty do you seriously believe we should be living in a fascist era where any rightwing lawmaker can denounce another human being with no evidence whatsoever? such lawmaker shall be free to shoot off his mouth with any libel he can invent? welcome back rudi mussolini giuliani.

.


----------



## bass player

It's never Hillary or the Democrat's fault, is it?

Caught with an private email server...blame the FBI.
Democrat supporters riot...blame Trump.
Trump wins the election...blame racists.
Democrats nominate an unelectable candidate...blame everyone but the Democrats.

The voters knew exactly who to blame...


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> You are attempting to be exclusionary because you don't have the intellectual equipment to deal with my arguments. I have contributed to the financial threads a few times.
> 
> A lot of the things you say are not factually correct. You said there was no possibility Petraeus was going to jail . Not true .
> You said there was no investigation into the Clinton Foundation. Not true.
> 
> You are a manipulator and an instigator afaiac.
> 
> You are playing games.
> 
> Your posts are too personal.




lol. Another you-you-you-you-you accuser. So childish.

sorry i never noticed your "financial" contributions. I'll try to notice in the future though. Would that satisfy Your Royal Highness?

me i'm the last thing from a manipulator. I'm a good investigator. I'm a properly trained scribe. I'm a long-time member on here. I've shared lots of decent financial info. My record is visible, you could always bestir yourself to take a look.

but the question remains, What are *you* doing here, with your axe to grind.

.


----------



## wraphter

Your posts are terrible hp. Almost fact free. Your English is quite idiosyncratic. 
How come you couldn't see that bringing foreign cash back to the US by companies like Apple would benefit the US?If they bought some US companies that would benefit the US economy. If they bought US govt bonds that would benefit the govt. They could fund infrastructure.
How come you couldn't see that. Because you politicize everything.

You politicized Leonard Cohen death by relating it to the present political turmoil.
Continue your Trumpian smear and innuendo campaign hp.
Typical female trouble maker.


----------



## lonewolf :)

Hillary & Obama give no speeches to calm the nation from protesting/rioting. It shows their best interests are not behind democracy.


----------



## Mukhang pera

At the risk of being perceived as pro-Trump, while CMF is unabashedly pro-Clinton (with a few exceptions who are now outcasts - or maybe they always were), I'll admit to enjoying Mr. Alexander's little rant (see below), even accepting him as a homemade basement *media* crackpot talking head ranting lies. For posting this, I expect to be relegated to the ranks of les déplorables - too low to kick and too wet to step on. Oh well, I’ve been kicked out of better places than this. I’ll live with the ignominy.

As I posted here before, I was never fond of either candidate, but I have no quarrel with the results. That would be the same had Clinton won. No use getting one's knickers in a twist either way. Just move on. None of us here can change anything, not even so much as the opinion of a single person, here on CMF or elsewhere. But for those here who obviously enjoy carrying on the debate in perpetuity, I guess that's okay too. No one here has to participate against their will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV8HTmUhu48


----------



## sags

Upthread mentions of repatriation of corporate profits for heavily discounted tax rates.

Isn't that what we on CMF would refer to as "moral hazard" ? Wouldn't it send a message to corporations to shove money offshore ?

If a company like Apple repatriated their money at a discount is it fair to other companies who paid the full rate of taxation ?

Would Apple repatriate their "old" money and then start shoving their "new" money offshore ?

I understand why Trump is eager to grab some of the cash, but is it worth the moral hazard ?

Then again, Trump wants to drop the US corporate tax rate to 15% from 35%, so companies won't offshore their funds.

But David Stockton, who was the finance guru for Ronald Reagan says the US can't afford any of Trump's planned expenditures or tax cuts.

They are facing a $30 Trillion national debt and an increase in the debt limit in March 2017, which will surely be a bloody battle.

If the last time is any indication, the battle could shut down the US government and the main opposition to raising the limit.....

Is the Republicans.


----------



## s123

mordko said:


> Having thought about it... The protests are not a waste of time. As long as they are peaceful, it's all good.


It's not wasting time but we have to learn the lesson from the past.
There are many cases the peaceful protests tune violent.
Participants need aware the violence occur from Police, Authorities and radical group etc..
The radial groups are often hired by Authorities that would like to lead conflicts and behind the grope make their profits in same time. 
They also don't care which group win or lose. 
The result are often the both of groups suffer from the riot/war.

- Police Violence Escalates As Provocateurs Infiltrate Standing Rock, #NoDAPL Protests:
http://www.mintpressnews.com/police...iltrate-standing-rock-nodapl-protests/222051/

Siouxz, the head of security on the frontline camp off North Dakota Highway 1806, said those who started the fires were not with the water protector movement.
“Seven Council has came and they are very ashamed of the behavior of some of the non-traditional people here who can’t respect our ways and how we want to make this prayerful,” Siouxz told MintPress News.
“We’re here to protect the water, not initiate a riot or some violent protest, which is the image that the whole world is getting right now. Our elders have come together to condemn all of these wrongful actions like catching things on fire.”

- Dakota Access Pipeline Company Attacks Native American Protesters with Dogs & Pepper Spray :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZcx2zEo4k


-Egypt-Inspired Protests Across Middle East Meet Violent Clampdown:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/02/08...sts-across-middle-east-meet-violent-clampdown

-Syria conflict: from peaceful protest to civil war:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-21797661

- Ukraine violence: dozens killed as protesters clash with armed police :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...olice-independence-square-kiev-battle-control


----------



## sags

Watching US politics and government is like watching a tennis match.

We are going to do this........oh you can't do that because of this.....okay, then we will do this....no, you can't do that either because of this.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Your posts are terrible hp. Almost fact free. Your English is quite idiosyncratic.
> How come you couldn't see that bringing foreign cash back to the US by companies like Apple would benefit the US?If they bought some US companies that would benefit the US economy. If they bought US govt bonds that would benefit the govt. They could fund infrastructure.
> How come you couldn't see that. Because you politicize everything.
> 
> You politicized Leonard Cohen death by relating it to the present political turmoil.
> Continue your Trumpian smear and innuendo campaign hp.
> Typical female trouble maker.



lol what a comedian you are

have we seen you before in this forum wraphter 
are you another sock puppet
or just a troll, as others have mentioned

.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> In other words Comey, an old friend of the Clintons, bent over backwards and doubled himself up in knots to help Hillary all he could s*hort of being fired* and impeached himself.


As "The Donald" would say in his reality TV series (The Apprentice)..."Comey....YOU'RE FIRED!":cocksure:


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Then again, Trump wants to drop the US corporate tax rate to 15% from 35%, so companies won't offshore their funds.
> 
> But David Stockton, who was the finance guru for Ronald Reagan says the US can't afford any of Trump's planned expenditures or tax cuts.
> 
> They are facing a $30 Trillion national debt and an increase in the debt limit in March 2017, which will surely be a bloody battle.
> 
> If the last time is any indication, the battle could shut down the US government and the main opposition to raising the limit.....


No matter how much corporate taxes are cut in the US under Trump, that will not encourage Big Business to bring manufacturing it back to the US. 

The Global economy and doing business anywhere in the world to maximize corporate profits will override any other corporate decisions. It's just the way of doing business these days. 

"the Donald" as "pres"can do anything once he's in office. He does have executive power to push through tax cuts..helps him and helps his corporate mutil-billionare buddies...unlike our PM that has to conduct his business "at arm's length". 

Remember PM Paul Martin and the controversy over his involvement in "influence peddling with CSL (Canada Steamship Lines)as finance minister? That would be standard operations in the US. 



> A second controversy is whether, as a result of *Mr. Martin's position as finance minister, CSL was given contracts improperly.* The government says CSL was given $82-million in contracts in the first 10 months of 1993, when the Tories were in power, $46-million while Mr. Martin was finance minister, and $33-million in the 15 months after he left -- a total of $161-million. On the face of it, the fact of a Liberal government did not enhance CSL's position. To remove any doubt, Mr. Martin has rightly asked Auditor-General Sheila Fraser to review a decade's worth of CSL's government contracts.



That could be considered very small potatoes in the enrichment schemes that the Donald could create as President.


----------



## sags

Like the lines from the movie The Grifters.

BOBO
Not skimming a thing, Lilly?

LILLY
Oh, well, you know. I just clip a
buck here and a buck there. Not
enough to notice.

BOBO
That's right. Take a little, leave
a little.

LILLY
A person that don't look out for
himself is too dumb to look out for
anybody else. He's a liability,
right, Bobo?

BOBO
You're a thousand percent right!

LILLY
Or else he's working an angle. If
he doesn't steal a little, he's
steeling big.

BOBO
You know it, Lilly.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> You didn't mention the Black bloc



certainly i mentioned the black bloc
i know i know, it's hard to read when one's eyes are bloodshot with rage





humble_pie said:


> as best i can recall, the federal government had advance info that anarchists from the US would attend. They were joined by canadian youths with crowbars, garbed in black. It was to control those anarchists that ontario declared martial law.


.


----------



## Argonaut

Victories for the movement in 2016 with Brexit and Trump, now we look to Norbert Hofer in Austria and Marine Le Pen in France to continue the success. The people are taking back their governments from the promise-everything-do-nothing corrupt politicians. We will not stand any longer for hypocritical aggressive bullying from the left-wing that demands tolerance for ideologies that destroy Western civilization. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like we have a leader in Canada to take up the mantle of this movement. Kevin O'Leary has all of the bluster and none of the charisma of Trump. How will history look upon this populist era? I am hoping positively, but no one knows for certain.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> Victories for the movement in 2016 with Brexit and Trump, now we look to Norbert Hofer in Austria and Marine Le Pen in France to continue the success. The people are taking back their governments from the promise-everything-do-nothing corrupt politicians. We will not stand any longer for hypocritical aggressive bullying from the left-wing that demands tolerance for ideologies that destroy Western civilization. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like we have a leader in Canada to take up the mantle of this movement. Kevin O'Leary has all of the bluster and none of the charisma of Trump. How will history look upon this populist era? I am hoping positively, but no one knows for certain.


Hover and Le Pen? And there are no fascist leaders in Canada? Oh, what a shame!


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> Victories for the movement in 2016 with Brexit and Trump, now we look to Norbert Hofer in Austria and Marine Le Pen in France to continue the success ... Kevin O'Leary has all of the bluster and none of the charisma of Trump. How will history look upon this populist era? I am hoping positively, but no one knows for certain.



you forgot rodrigo duterte of the philippines? he certainly has donald trump's charisma

others have been around a while
north korea's kim jong-un
syria's bashar al assad.

role models, all of them

.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> Nice voice.....one of the world's most inspirational songs.......and amen, it is not time to give up, or I think to protest on streets.
> 
> It is time to regroup, get stronger and come back in 4 years.
> 
> Personally, I think the Democrats should shake the whole primary and election process up a bit, while Trump and the Republicans duke it out over policy. They need a share of media coverage to present themselves as an alternative, throughout the Trump Presidency.
> 
> They should have a short nominating process from January 2017 to March 2017 and select a new leader who can be the voice of Democrats until the next election. The leader can be the unified voice of the party.
> 
> In the US, the parties that aren't in power are rudderless.
> 
> They have no leader until the election is at hand and speak only in singular voices, often to empty halls in the legislatures.
> 
> That is one of the noticeable differences between Canadian and US politics.
> 
> Our political parties generally always have a leader who speaks for the party and keeps pressure on the government and voters informed on the issues of the day.


This is not how the Americans run their political system. They need to shake up the DNC, but the thought leaders will naturally emerge.


----------



## Argonaut

The North Korea comparison isn't fooling anyone. A more apt one would be Narendra Modi in India, who is a populist and a fighter of red tape and bureaucracy. Really a Make India Great Again kind of guy. By all accounts he seems to be doing well in India, at the very least in the fight against corruption. Once the Soros-led protests die down in the US, let's hope the people give Trump a chance to do well.


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> That song is just one of many Leonard Cohen's masterpieces. I found the SNL opener to be a fitting goodbye to both Leonard Cohen and Hillary Clinton the nominee. She offered a simple, hopeful message at the end.
> 
> I am OK with the protests. They aren't going to prevent Trump from becoming president but protests are always about more than specific demands. They're about engaging and inspiring people. If they get young people involved then they will have done a better job than Jay-Z, Katy Perry and Springsteen.
> 
> There is talk of trying to replicate the Tea Party phenomenon. The plan is to engage young people and install more liberal candidates. It's only two years until mid terms so it's worth their while to start right away. A week ago, I would have said it was a terrible idea. I've since changed my mind. The tea party primaried the Republicans and they appeared to be heading into the abyss. Now they will control most state governorships, the house, the senate and the Whitehouse.


The funny thing is that the left wing version of the Tea Party is going to drive the right wing as crazy as the TP infuriated the left.


----------



## mordko

Modi is no fascist. National Front, Freedom party = fascists with a history of praising Adolf Hitler. 

It kinda figures that you would like them given that you are promoting defamation based on the Protocols.


----------



## andrewf

wraphter said:


> By definition,protests are a degeneration of mental processes. The normal inhibitions against violent acting out are reduced by being part
> of a group. Protests are inherently violent. They are inherently irrational as opposed to rational.They represent a going over to the dark side of human nature. A so-called peaceful protest can turn into something else in a second.
> 
> Of course sometimes they are justified if the government is oppressive. The Maidan Revolution in Ukraine started as demonstations. They turned to violent confrontation with the police. In the end, the government fell. We all witnessed the Arab Spring protests in the main square in Cairo. Something like that could readily happen in the US. The occupy movement was very determined.
> The G-20 demonstrations in Toronto were quite upsetting and emotional.


The right to peaceful protest is, as I see it, one of the most essential for a functioning democracy. We, the people, should be ruthless with any politician or official that trespasses on that right. Heads should have rolled after the shitshow that was the G20 meeting in Toronto. If you let the government trample on your rights, you don't deserve them. The suspension of civil liberties in the downtown of Canada's biggest city is one of the darkest marks on the record of the previous government.


----------



## Eder

I was in a boat race to Cabo when we heard Trump won on the ssb. Most of the Americans I talked to at the evening choir practice was happy with the result although some want to move to Canada as usual.
Most of them say the protesters should get a job haha.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> Rusty do you seriously believe we should be living in a fascist era where any rightwing lawmaker can denounce another human being with no evidence whatsoever? such lawmaker shall be free to shoot off his mouth with any libel he can invent? welcome back rudi mussolini giuliani.
> 
> .


No evidence? Words fail me. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to make up your own facts.

Watch this press conference from July 5 in which Comey says there is no doubt that Hilary and her assistants were 'very careless' and more than 110 confidential, secret or top secret emails were on her server and almost certainly hacked by hostile agents. He then recommends no action be taken, although he is at pains to point out that anybody else who does the same thing, cannot expect the same treatment.

I leave it up to you if someone this careless should be entrusted with the country's most important secrets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWP8lvUQV1g


----------



## Argonaut

Eder said:


> Most of them say the protesters should get a job haha.


The irony is that now they do have a job! They're being paid $15/hr by Soros. Those that aren't being paid should be protesting that they're wasting their time with no compensation.

Also, Le Pen has worked hard to distance the National Front from fringe elements. Holocaust deniers aren't welcome. Anyone who's been to France in recent years can see that there is definitely something very wrong in the country. This manifested itself in Paris and Nice. It's time to address it rather than pretend it doesn't exist.


----------



## andrewf

SMK said:


> One factor of many. Clinton herself is sure blaming it all on Comey as I said they would right after the election, but it was much more than the email scandal. Hillary hasn't been around just since 2008 when she was Secretary of State, but for the last 42 years! Americans were tired of her political liabilities. If Trump had not been her opponent, she would have lost big. Clinton learned nothing from her run in 2008.
> 
> Baggage galore. We should all have predicted her defeat, but were as blind as Clinton's blind and "naked ambition." http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/rex-murphy-fear-and-loathing-on-the-campaign-trail-16


Anyone who thinks that the Comey announcement didn't move enough votes to lose Hillary the election are living in la-la land. She won the popular vote. A few hundred thousand more in the popular vote and she would have won the electoral college. She had a 10 pt lead when Comey announced which subsequently evaporated.


----------



## andrewf

lonewolf :) said:


> Hillary & Obama give no speeches to calm the nation from protesting/rioting. It shows their best interests are not behind democracy.


They both made speeches after the election supporting Trump and peaceful transition of power. I don't see why they should tell people not to protest.


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> you forgot rodrigo duterte of the philippines? he certainly has donald trump's charisma
> 
> others have been around a while
> north korea's kim jong-un
> syria's bashar al assad.
> 
> role models, all of them
> 
> .


Hopefully Trump doesn't get any ideas from Duterte, like encouraging vigilante mobs to hunt down and execute suspected/accused (witchhunt style) drug dealers, etc.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> No evidence? Words fail me. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to make up your own facts.
> 
> Watch this press conference from July 5 in which Comey says there is no doubt that Hilary and her assistants were 'very careless' and more than 110 confidential, secret or top secret emails were on her server and almost certainly hacked by hostile agents. He then recommends no action be taken, although he is at pains to point out that anybody else who does the same thing, cannot expect the same treatment.
> 
> I leave it up to you if someone this careless should be entrusted with the country's most important secrets.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWP8lvUQV1g




words do not, however, fail me. *You* are not entitled to make up *your* own personal interpretation of historical fact & then bash, re-bash & re-re-bash your essentially false interpretation at readers so many dozens of times.

repeating yourself endlessly with a sledge hammer does not make your subjective personal opinion correct.

the fact is that hillary clinton was not charged.

it's time to move along.


BTW why are you posting a bastardized version of last july's original comey press conference? we all saw the original months ago, at the moment when it actually was news.

in your place, i would be embarassed to show your heavily-edited loop version, which appears to have been stolen from a legitimate source by one of those proliferating home basement fringe "media." Especially questionable is the trademark hate-hillary soundbite. 

here is a full unadulterated video transcript of comey's historic july conference. It goes without saying that its source is traditional mainstream media. Bloomberg in this case.

.








.


----------



## new dog

andrewf said:


> Anyone who thinks that the Comey announcement didn't move enough votes to lose Hillary the election are living in la-la land. She won the popular vote. A few hundred thousand more in the popular vote and she would have won the electoral college. She had a 10 pt lead when Comey announced which subsequently evaporated.


And if CNN and everyone everywhere didn't go after Trump for everything under the sun as hard as they could, he would have won by a landslide.


----------



## new dog

andrewf said:


> Hopefully Trump doesn't get any ideas from Duterte, like encouraging vigilante mobs to hunt down and execute suspected/accused (witchhunt style) drug dealers, etc.


Duterte has huge support from the people to clean up the run away corruption and drugs in the Philippines. The people were desperate and sick of it. The US isn't that far gone so that level of cleaning isn't required.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Anyone who thinks that the Comey announcement didn't move enough votes to lose Hillary the election are living in la-la land. She won the popular vote. A few hundred thousand more in the popular vote and she would have won the electoral college. She had a 10 pt lead when Comey announced which subsequently evaporated.


The Comey announcement simply gained a small bit of the ground lost by the non-stop media attack on Trump. All the Democrats had to do to prevent this was nominate a candidate that didn't have a private email server and wasn't under current FBI investigation.

They chose not to, and they paid the price. It's 100% their fault and no one else is to blame.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> And if CNN and everyone everywhere didn't go after Trump for everything under the sun as hard as they could, he would have won by a landslide.



:biggrin: turn the above statement around & you are saying that every thug, liar & demagogue in the world should & would get elected if it weren't for the inquiring investigators of the 5th estate who have this unfortunate habit of reporting the truth


.


----------



## andrewf

Once you let vigilante mobs run justice in a country, you aren't living in a democracy.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Duterte has huge support from the people to clean up the run away corruption and drugs in the Philippines. The people were desperate and sick of it. The US isn't that far gone so that level of cleaning isn't required.



one does hear that filippinos are alarmed about the thousands of murders by duterte's vigilante death squads though

how they roar through poor neighbourhoods on motorbikes shooting at anything that moves


----------



## new dog

Mukhang pera said:


> At the risk of being perceived as pro-Trump, while CMF is unabashedly pro-Clinton (with a few exceptions who are now outcasts - or maybe they always were), I'll admit to enjoying Mr. Alexander's little rant (see below), even accepting him as a homemade basement *media* crackpot talking head ranting lies. For posting this, I expect to be relegated to the ranks of les déplorables - too low to kick and too wet to step on. Oh well, I’ve been kicked out of better places than this. I’ll live with the ignominy.
> 
> As I posted here before, I was never fond of either candidate, but I have no quarrel with the results. That would be the same had Clinton won. No use getting one's knickers in a twist either way. Just move on. None of us here can change anything, not even so much as the opinion of a single person, here on CMF or elsewhere. But for those here who obviously enjoy carrying on the debate in perpetuity, I guess that's okay too. No one here has to participate against their will.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV8HTmUhu48


He summed it up well good for him. I think Trump should also take the names down of these protesters and put them in the army so they can go fight for the freedom Hillary wants around the world. If you told them that they would have to fight in some other country they would never protest again.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> The Comey announcement simply gained a small bit of the ground lost by the non-stop media attack on Trump. All the Democrats had to do to prevent this was nominate a candidate that didn't have a private email server and wasn't under current FBI investigation.
> 
> They chose not to, and they paid the price. It's 100% their fault and no one else is to blame.


A small bit of ground being a 5 pt swing, and supression of the democratic vote.

I don't think Trump's campaign could have timed such a non-revelation any better than Comey did. Imagine the FBI announcing a week before the election that they recovered a Trump computer and could neither confirm nor deny it contained any illegal material, such as child pornography.


You really shouldn't be cheering the politicization of government institutions, since what goes around comes around.


----------



## new dog

andrewf said:


> A small bit of ground being a 5 pt swing, and supression of the democratic vote.
> 
> I don't think Trump's campaign could have timed such a non-revelation any better than Comey did. Imagine the FBI announcing a week before the election that they recovered a Trump computer and could neither confirm nor deny it contained any illegal material, such as child pornography.
> 
> 
> You really shouldn't be cheering the politicization of government institutions, since what goes around comes around.



When it comes to Trump it goes around and around and never stops, even now on CNN. So when you say what comes around goes around that points straight at Hillary. She deserved to be charged for her e-mail thing so she got off lucky.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> A small bit of ground being a 5 pt swing, and supression of the democratic vote.
> 
> I don't think Trump's campaign could have timed such a non-revelation any better than Comey did. Imagine the FBI announcing a week before the election that they recovered a Trump computer and could neither confirm nor deny it contained any illegal material, such as child pornography.
> 
> 
> You really shouldn't be cheering the politicization of government institutions, since what goes around comes around.


I'm not cheering it...I simply said it made up some lost ground. My preference is that no politicization happen at all, but I'm not going to lose sleep over one incident considering how much the political deck was stacked against the Republicans all along.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> He summed it up well good for him. I think Trump should also take the names down of these protesters and put them in the army so they can go fight for the freedom Hillary wants around the world. If you told them that they would have to fight in some other country they would never protest again.


Great fascist sentiment, there.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> And if CNN and everyone everywhere didn't go after Trump for everything under the sun as hard as they could, he would have won by a landslide.


This whining is unbecoming. Apparently 75% of ALL Hillary coverage was of her emails. Trump got 3x the coverage as Hillary for his policy proposals. The right wing has been whining about biased media for decades despite getting better than even coverage much of the time.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/1...on-obliterated-clinton-policy-coverage/214242


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Hillary. She deserved to be charged for her e-mail thing so she got off lucky.



dog in your world, what is the point of paying good money for a justice system? why not have every tom dick & harry sentencing citizens on mere accusation?

they could have a mob lynching out of rotating downtown bars every friday night. Would entertain the customers & save the province a boatload of money.

.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> When it comes to Trump it goes around and around and never stops, even now on CNN. So when you say what comes around goes around that points straight at Hillary. She deserved to be charged for her e-mail thing so she got off lucky.


We're not talking about CNN (you never whine about FOX, of course), we're talking about the government -- the FBI.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> I'm not cheering it...I simply said it made up some lost ground. My preference is that no politicization happen at all, but I'm not going to lose sleep over one incident considering how much the political deck was stacked against the Republicans all along.


The political deck is stacked against the republicans? Does this include how republican states gerrymander electoral districts to partisan advantage? How a Republican governor handed the election to Bush in 2000?

At some point you're going to have to wake up to the reality that the GOP controls the presidency, the house, the Senate and soon-to-be the SCOTUS. You can't play the victim when you control all the levers of power.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> I think Trump should also take the names down of these protesters and put them in the army so they can go fight for the freedom Hillary wants around the world. If you told them that they would have to fight in some other country they would never protest again.



dog i hesitate to ask you this but you have invited the question. Won't you please tell us about all the wars in all the other countries where you have fought so bravely ...


.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> At some point you're going to have to wake up to the reality that the GOP controls the presidency, the house, the Senate and soon-to-be the SCOTUS. You can't play the victim when you control all the levers of power.


absolutely. The supreme court will have the longest-lasting effect, if the justices manage to repeal laws that have taken a century to painstakingly put in place. 

in this climate, street protest remains one of the few viable forms of opposition.

.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> The political deck is stacked against the republicans? Does this include how republican states gerrymander electoral districts to partisan advantage? How a Republican governor handed the election to Bush in 2000?
> 
> At some point you're going to have to wake up to the reality that the GOP controls the presidency, the house, the Senate and soon-to-be the SCOTUS. You can't play the victim when you control all the levers of power.


The only people playing victim are the Democrats...they've done nothing but whine and lay blame while their supporters are rioting in the streets destroying public and private property. It's a good thing for America that the morally corrupt Dems have been ousted.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> absolutely. The supreme court will have the longest-lasting effect, if the justices manage to repeal laws that have taken a century to painstakingly put in place.


Hillary would appointed justices that would destroy the 1st and 2nd amendments. Thankfully, that won't happen and the US constitution will remain intact.



humble_pie said:


> in this climate, street protest remains one of the few viable forms of opposition.


No one is against protests....they are against rioting and destruction of property. Try to understand the difference between the two...it's really not that hard.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> dog i hesitate to ask you this but you have invited the question. Won't you please tell us about all the wars in all the other countries where you have fought so bravely ...
> 
> 
> .



I haven't but I greatly appreciate the soldiers who did.

My point is Hillary is a warmonger and this is who they are protesting for.


----------



## new dog

Bass you make a good point whether we like the first or second amendments or not they are in the US constitution. Hillary would destroy the US constitution by appointing the justice.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> Bass you make a good point whether we like the first or second amendments or not they are in the US constitution. Hillary would destroy the US constitution by appointing the justice.


Add to that they would likely have granted immunity to the tens millions of people in the country illegally, opened the doors for even more illegals, most of which would vote for the Democrats, and that would have guaranteed that they would have remained into power for the foreseeable future.

It's no exaggeration that this election was the "last chance" to save America.


----------



## olivaw

Of the thousands of protestors, a few dozen have been arrested. The vast majority are peacefully exercising their first amendment right. 

Meanwhile, president elect Trump has decided to *go after the New York Times*. Doesn't he have bigger fish to fry? :beguiled:


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> The only people playing victim are the Democrats...they've done nothing but whine and lay blame while their supporters are rioting in the streets destroying public and private property. It's a good thing for America that the morally corrupt Dems have been ousted.


see:


new dog said:


> When it comes to Trump it goes around and around and never stops, even now on CNN. So when you say what comes around goes around that points straight at Hillary. She deserved to be charged for her e-mail thing so she got off lucky.


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> Add to that they would likely have granted immunity to the tens millions of people in the country illegally, opened the doors for even more illegals, most of which would vote for the Democrats, and that would have guaranteed that they would have remained into power for the foreseeable future.
> 
> It's no exaggeration that this election was the "last chance" to save America.


And so many people can't see this truth. Instead they think it is a nazi or KKK thing or whatever which couldn't be further from the truth.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> Bass you make a good point whether we like the first or second amendments or not they are in the US constitution. Hillary would destroy the US constitution by appointing the justice.


Evidence?

Why didn't the GOP confirm Merrick Garland? He was a moderate whom the GOP has praised in the past.


----------



## new dog

She didn't get in, so luckily we don't have to wait and see it come true.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> No one is against protests....they are against rioting and destruction of property. Try to understand the difference between the two...it's really not that hard.




bass here are just a few posts of yours over the last day or 2 which show that you yourself are quite unable to differentiate between democrats & progressives & media & protestors & rioters:


http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...-US-election?p=1342185&viewfull=1#post1342185

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...-US-election?p=1341633&viewfull=1#post1341633

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...ump-protests?p=1344473&viewfull=1#post1344473

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...ump-protests?p=1345665&viewfull=1#post1345665

.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> She didn't get in, so luckily we don't have to wait and see it come true.


So, you're just speculating. On the other hand, we will get to see if Trump overturns Roe v Wade, opening the doors to the prohibition of abortion, even in cases where the mother would die. He is also on record saying that women who undergo abortions should be punished.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Add to that they would likely have granted immunity to the tens millions of people in the country illegally, opened the doors for even more illegals, most of which would vote for the Democrats, and that would have guaranteed that they would have remained into power for the foreseeable future.
> 
> It's no exaggeration that this election was the "last chance" to save America.



i hope you will turn your attention to protecting America from the tens of millions of extraterrestrials who are plotting right now - even as we speak - to stealth invade the US disguised as white-skinned, english-speaking christian males.

alas the Iron Dome will not work as protection. It's only for small countries like israel.

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> i hope you will turn your attention to protecting America from the tens of millions of extraterrestrials who are plotting right now - even as we speak - to stealth invade the US disguised as white-skinned, english-speaking christian males..


Yeah, that's a solid, well argued rebuttal that proves that you like reasonable debate...


----------



## olivaw

Re: Roe v. Wade: The GOP says they want justices to overturn it but I wonder if they will engineer a way to leave it intact. They have to know that it would lead to significant civil unrest.


----------



## sags

Trump appointed Steve Bannon of Brietbart News to be the chief strategist, a top position in the Trump White House.

I don't know much about the guy, but people are howling that he is an anti-Semite racist with links to white supremacy groups.

It is really getting heated on some of the news panels......


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Trump appointed Steve Bannon of Brietbart News to be the chief strategist, a top position in the Trump White House.
> 
> I don't know much about the guy, but people are howling that he is an anti-Semite racist with links to white supremacy groups.
> 
> It is really getting heated on some of the news panels......


He worked at Goldman Sachs-which is a hotbed of anti-semite racists.


----------



## mordko

Steve Bannon is alt-right. Not a good news, but expected.


----------



## s123

sags said:


> Trump appointed Steve Bannon of Brietbart News to be the chief strategist, a top position in the Trump White House.
> 
> I don't know much about the guy, but people are howling that he is an anti-Semite racist with links to white supremacy groups.
> 
> It is really getting heated on some of the news panels......



Maybe supermoon effects? 
-Lunacy linked to the moon:
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weath...-really-affect-human-animal-behavior/61402994

Lunacy and lunatic stem from luna, the Latin word for moon. It is believed that people were more likely to show erratic behavior during a full moon.
A publication on the National Criminal Justice Reference Service titled lunar effect- biological tides and human emotions, shows extensive analyses of data on human behavior. Lunar astronomy accurately indicated that the repression of the moon's gravitational influence brings about social tension, disharmony and bizarre results.
Another study looked at data over a 5-year period from police*records in Florida, which showed an increase in cases of homicide and aggravated assault around full moons.

- Once-in-a-Lifetime Snap (Coffee break picture) :frog:
https://weather.com/photos/news/frogs-ride-croc


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> He worked at Goldman Sachs-which is a hotbed of anti-semite racists.


More important that him being ex-GS, he ran a far-right/alt-right (Alex Jones crowd) news organization. Court testimony from his wife suggests he didn't want his kids to go to school with Jews.


----------



## andrewf

So it seems likely Hillary will end up with 2 million more votes than Trump, or 1.5% lead. In other words, the polling was not too far off. One wonders how extreme such a situation (leader in popular vote losing the electoral college) would have to get before people would acknowledge a problem. 5 million votes?


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> So it seems likely Hillary will end up with 2 million more votes than Trump, or 1.5% lead. In other words, the polling was not too far off. One wonders how extreme such a situation (leader in popular vote losing the electoral college) would have to get before people would acknowledge a problem. 5 million votes?


It's only a problem for one side when that side loses. Had the situation been reversed, no one on the left would be demanding change. If they think it's a problem with the situation reversed, then maybe discussion is warranted.


----------



## andrewf

So, as long as the status quo is rigged in one party's favour, it's not a problem.

bass, what's your number if not 2 million? 10 million? When does the electoral college not going along with the popular become problematic?


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> So, as long as the status quo is rigged in one party's favour, it's not a problem.
> 
> bass, what's your number if not 2 million? 10 million? When does the electoral college not going along with the popular become problematic?


I don't think it's problematic. The electoral college was created so that heavily populated states couldn't become so dominant that they basically decided the election every time. It's no different than each state having 2 senators...Rhode Island has 2 senators, and so does California.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> More important that him being ex-GS, he ran a far-right/alt-right (Alex Jones crowd) news organization. Court testimony from his wife suggests he didn't want his kids to go to school with Jews.


Incredible, the former head of wacko ultra-right Breitbart News is now a chief advisor?? Insane! Breitbart is the go-to news source for white supremacists/nationalists.

Something that the better educated CMF readership may not realize is that Trump supporters get their news from places like: Breitbart News, InfoWars, and ZeroHedge. All of these are marked by wild conspiracy theories, extreme favour for Trump and Russia, and extremely racist content.


----------



## sags

Don't worry.......as most of Trump's campaign promises fail to appear his supporters will be protesting.


----------



## new dog

james4beach said:


> Incredible, the former head of wacko ultra-right Breitbart News is now a chief advisor?? Insane! Breitbart is the go-to news source for white supremacists/nationalists.
> 
> Something that the better educated CMF readership may not realize is that Trump supporters get their news from places like: Breitbart News, InfoWars, and ZeroHedge. All of these are marked by wild conspiracy theories, extreme favour for Trump and Russia, and extremely racist content.



Like CNN, like both candidates so far in this election cycle. The only good thing is the warmonger isn't in power.


----------



## bass player

Why aren't Obama and Hillary asking their supporters to stop rioting? Is it because since the Dems have lost, they are of no use to them any more, or is it so that they can use this hatred and divisiveness as a reason to vote Democrat next time?


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Incredible, the former head of wacko ultra-right Breitbart News is now a chief advisor?? Insane! Breitbart is the go-to news source for white supremacists/nationalists.
> 
> Something that the better educated CMF readership may not realize is that Trump supporters get their news from places like: Breitbart News, InfoWars, and ZeroHedge. All of these are marked by wild conspiracy theories, extreme favour for Trump and Russia, and extremely racist content.


Your MSM is getting weaker every day and the alternative media is getting stronger every day-sucks to be you.


----------



## bass player

The progressives have been listening to MSM for so long that they have no idea how far left they have moved. Even Fox has moved left and are now just right of centre, but are still accused of being hard right by people who have lost perspective.


----------



## new dog

Trump met with Nigel Farage which is a great thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/12/politics/nigel-farage-donald-trump-meeting/index.html

Brexit was the first great thing to happen this year so it is good Donald met with him.


----------



## Argonaut

I just watched Trump on 60 Minutes. For those in the know and who understand this election, i.e. those who have read Scott Adams' blog, everything is coming to pass as expected. Trump has dropped the rhetoric and is a very serious man focused on doing a great job. Americans should give him a chance, as Dave Chappelle said.

Also, I believe that Ivanka is actually an angel sent from the heavens. It will be nice when in 2024 she finally breaks that glass ceiling and becomes the first woman president.


----------



## gibor365

Interesting to know if Trump will change Green Card eligibility


> Green card holders from the top ten countries of birth, as of January 1, 2013, the date of the most recently released statistics, made up over half of the total green-card-holding population in the U.S.
> 
> The most common birth country for U.S. green card holders in January 2013 was Mexico. At that time, a quarter of all U.S. green card holders were originally from Mexico.
> 
> The rest of the top ten green-card-holder birth countries as of January 2013, in order, were: China, the Philippines, India, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Vietnam, El Salvador, Canada and the United Kingdom.


----------



## gibor365

> Also, I believe that Ivanka is actually an angel sent from the heavens. It will be nice when in 2024 she finally breaks that glass ceiling and becomes the first woman president.


Yeap, it would be nive to see such a smart and beautiful woman as POTUS... She'd be first POTUS who is female and Jewish ... Jared Kushner would be "first gentleman"


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Your MSM is getting weaker every day and the alternative media is getting stronger every day-sucks to be you.


Contrails getting you down, Nelley?


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> The progressives have been listening to MSM for so long that they have no idea how far left they have moved. Even Fox has moved left and are now just right of centre, but are still accused of being hard right by people who have lost perspective.


If over half of the country considers FOX to be right wing, they are right wing, pretty much by definition. Maybe, just maybe, it is your perception of the political centre that is warped.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> I just watched Trump on 60 Minutes. For those in the know and who understand this election, i.e. those who have read Scott Adams' blog, everything is coming to pass as expected. Trump has dropped the rhetoric and is a very serious man focused on doing a great job. Americans should give him a chance, as Dave Chappelle said.
> 
> Also, I believe that Ivanka is actually an angel sent from the heavens. It will be nice when in 2024 she finally breaks that glass ceiling and becomes the first woman president.


Too bad Scott was wrong about the Trump landslide. Trump lost the popular by around 2 million votes.

I guess you're also saying that most of Trump's base are useful idiots that were duped by the master manipulator. They foolishly believed he wasn't lying when he made policy promises.


----------



## andrewf

I'm just looping back to Scott's blog and he seems to be suggesting Trump governs like Bernie (free college for black kids funded by taxes on the 1%). I'm sure Trump will be quick to take his advice.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152998516891/the-de-hitlerization-of-your-brain


----------



## olivaw

Scott Adams is right about one thing - Trump is not a Hitler. 

Scott is missing the point of the protests. They are not expecting Trump to engage in genocide. They are expect him to move the country back to a time when white nationalism and subtle racism was more acceptable. They're afraid that he will appease people like our casual Republican friends in Montana who fret that "whites are becoming a minority in our own country". 

Of course, there are protestors who will say silly things. Some call Trump a fascist. She claim that he is in bed with the KKK. Some want the EC to award Hillary the presidency based on the popular vote. 

Most, I think, just want their fear to be heard.


----------



## james4beach

Nelley, like most Trump supporters, says that alternative right-wing news sources are telling the truths that the main stream media just won't say. Rather, I maintain that these right-wing web sites are pure, batshit crazy.

It's critical that Canadians learn that these are nutcase web sites. They are part mental illness and part propaganda. What's on some of the Trump favourite web sites tonight?

*ZeroHedge*: "Soros has committed treason" (implies he should be killed), along with comment section from Trump supporters saying that lots of people want to kill this man. With references to how Soros is Jewish, and hiding out in Israel. This is bizarre anti-semitic propaganda against a man who is, in fact, a US citizen and billionnaire who happens to hold opinions contrary to another citizen billionnaire - Trump.

*ZeroHedge again*: A story on the former head of Breitbart News, reviewing criticism that he's associated with white supremacists. The conclusion from the ZH editor: "Judging the amount of hatred spewed at Bannon by virtually every member of establishment media and politics, he must have done something right."

*Breitbart*: Running a story on two men assaulting a Trump supporter. Now that's ridiculously selective, isn't it? Selecting the one case of violence against a Trump supporter and not a single mention of the Trump-supporting KKK, white supremacist activity, increases in hate crimes such as swastikas, Sig Heil, and text "You Deserve to be Gassed" (source: Haaretz), plus the liberal protestors getting shot during Portland's rally ...

*Infowars*: A special segment called "Trump not breaking promises, media lies again".

^ hey yeah there's some fair reporting. Great place to get your information leading up to an election.

When I was younger I used to listen to conspiracy theory late night talk radio shows, stuff about con trails, the illuminati, and how the government is out to get you. Even at age 18, I laughed at this stuff as nutty entertainment. I would have never thought that this kind of insanity would become the primary source of information and THE BASIS for electing someone like Trump as president.

But that's what elected Trump. Stories like "Hillary has people murdered" and "Hillary is involved in satanic pedophile ring" <--- this stuff is considered normal among Trump people


----------



## wraphter

andrewf said:


> If over half of the country considers FOX to be right wing, they are right wing, pretty much by definition. Maybe, just maybe, it is your perception of the political centre that is warped.


FOX's viewership is greater than CNN's. About a half of the voters voted for Trump. Yet the liberals continue to stigmatize and pathologize half of the population by hurling epithets such as racist, homophobe,antisemite and xenophobe at them. Remember Clinton saying half of Trump's support were a basket of deplorables. She dismissed millions of potential voters . That is what politically correct liberals do in universities and in online forums.

Some people paint with a very broad brush.


----------



## mordko

^ agreed. Conspiracy has always been big, e.g. in underdeveloped nations of Eastern Europe and Arab countries. The stuff many people in these regions believe seemed crazy and laughable only 5 years ago. Surely enlightened N America was immune to obviously idiotic falsehoods? Apparently not. 

Trump started his campaign with the "Obama is not American" conspiracy and finished with implications that US is run by a cabal. His chief strategist is known for outright fabrications like these 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/09/14/the-matthew-shepard-story-is-a-lie/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...-avoid-oath-allegiance-pledge-defend-america/


----------



## wraphter

andrewf said:


> Too bad Scott was wrong about the Trump landslide. Trump lost the popular by around 2 million votes.
> 
> I guess you're also saying that most of Trump's base are useful idiots that were duped by the master manipulator. They foolishly believed he wasn't lying when he made policy promises.


Right now CNN shows 668,483.

Links please.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Contrails getting you down, Nelley?


If this was 2006 instead of 2016 you would be ridiculing the whole premise of massive NSA spying/monitoring of domestic communication-first exposed on the alt media and ridiculed by the MSM and Braindead Sheep like yourself.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> If over half of the country considers FOX to be right wing, they are right wing, pretty much by definition. Maybe, just maybe, it is your perception of the political centre that is warped.


Braindead Sheep: You are the one saying Trump's ideas are extreme right-he just won the election Einstein.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Nelley, like most Trump supporters, says that alternative right-wing news sources are telling the truths that the main stream media just won't say. Rather, I maintain that these right-wing web sites are pure, batshit crazy.
> 
> It's critical that Canadians learn that these are nutcase web sites. They are part mental illness and part propaganda. What's on some of the Trump favourite web sites tonight?
> 
> *ZeroHedge*: "Soros has committed treason" (implies he should be killed), along with comment section from Trump supporters saying that lots of people want to kill this man. With references to how Soros is Jewish, and hiding out in Israel. This is bizarre anti-semitic propaganda against a man who is, in fact, a US citizen and billionnaire who happens to hold opinions contrary to another citizen billionnaire - Trump.
> 
> *ZeroHedge again*: A story on the former head of Breitbart News, reviewing criticism that he's associated with white supremacists. The conclusion from the ZH editor: "Judging the amount of hatred spewed at Bannon by virtually every member of establishment media and politics, he must have done something right."
> 
> *Breitbart*: Running a story on two men assaulting a Trump supporter. Now that's ridiculously selective, isn't it? Selecting the one case of violence against a Trump supporter and not a single mention of the Trump-supporting KKK, white supremacist activity, increases in hate crimes such as swastikas, Sig Heil, and text "You Deserve to be Gassed" (source: Haaretz), plus the liberal protestors getting shot during Portland's rally ...
> 
> *Infowars*: A special segment called "Trump not breaking promises, media lies again".
> 
> ^ hey yeah there's some fair reporting. Great place to get your information leading up to an election.
> 
> When I was younger I used to listen to conspiracy theory late night talk radio shows, stuff about con trails, the illuminati, and how the government is out to get you. Even at age 18, I laughed at this stuff as nutty entertainment. I would have never thought that this kind of insanity would become the primary source of information and THE BASIS for electing someone like Trump as president.
> 
> But that's what elected Trump. Stories like "Hillary has people murdered" and "Hillary is involved in satanic pedophile ring" <--- this stuff is considered normal among Trump people


It is one thing to be ignorant but it is quite another to be so obviously proud of your ignorance.


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> But that's what elected Trump. Stories like "Hillary has people murdered" and "Hillary is involved in satanic pedophile ring" <--- this stuff is considered normal among Trump people


Total exaggeration .You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Methinks a certain poster doth protest too much.


----------



## mordko

...


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Braindead Sheep: You are the one saying Trump's ideas are extreme right-he just won the election Einstein.


It's not exactly like the far right leaders have never won elections before. Wasn't it why Einstein had to flee Germany?


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Nelley, like most Trump supporters, says that alternative right-wing news sources are telling the truths that the main stream media just won't say. Rather, I maintain that these right-wing web sites are pure, batshit crazy.
> 
> It's critical that Canadians learn that these are nutcase web sites. They are part mental illness and part propaganda. What's on some of the Trump favourite web sites tonight?
> 
> *ZeroHedge*: "Soros has committed treason" (implies he should be killed), along with comment section from Trump supporters saying that lots of people want to kill this man. With references to how Soros is Jewish, and hiding out in Israel. This is bizarre anti-semitic propaganda against a man who is, in fact, a US citizen and billionnaire who happens to hold opinions contrary to another citizen billionnaire - Trump.
> 
> *ZeroHedge again*: A story on the former head of Breitbart News, reviewing criticism that he's associated with white supremacists. The conclusion from the ZH editor: "Judging the amount of hatred spewed at Bannon by virtually every member of establishment media and politics, he must have done something right."
> 
> *Breitbart*: Running a story on two men assaulting a Trump supporter. Now that's ridiculously selective, isn't it? Selecting the one case of violence against a Trump supporter and not a single mention of the Trump-supporting KKK, white supremacist activity, increases in hate crimes such as swastikas, Sig Heil, and text "You Deserve to be Gassed" (source: Haaretz), plus the liberal protestors getting shot during Portland's rally ...
> 
> *Infowars*: A special segment called "Trump not breaking promises, media lies again".
> 
> ^ hey yeah there's some fair reporting. Great place to get your information leading up to an election.
> 
> When I was younger I used to listen to conspiracy theory late night talk radio shows, stuff about con trails, the illuminati, and how the government is out to get you. Even at age 18, I laughed at this stuff as nutty entertainment. I would have never thought that this kind of insanity would become the primary source of information and THE BASIS for electing someone like Trump as president.
> 
> But that's what elected Trump. Stories like "Hillary has people murdered" and "Hillary is involved in satanic pedophile ring" <--- this stuff is considered normal among Trump people


PEOPLE EXACTLY LIKE YOU ELECTED DONALD TRUMP-rather the half of the population absolutely sick and tired of listening to garbage like you spew your constant racism based, PC based, social justice based BULLSHIT.


----------



## new dog

Well at least universities are doing their part to help the poor liberals who feel upset by the election results.

https://twitter.com/AndrewNBCNews/status/796444892801204234

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/u...unseling-in-wake-of-trump-win/article/2607025

http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/10/colleges-cancelled-exams-for-students-tr


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> If this was 2006 instead of 2016 you would be ridiculing the whole premise of massive NSA spying/monitoring of domestic communication-first exposed on the alt media and ridiculed by the MSM and Braindead Sheep like yourself.


No, the Patriot Act was highly controversial in 2006. Try again.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> PEOPLE EXACTLY LIKE YOU ELECTED DONALD TRUMP-rather the half of the population absolutely sick and tired of listening to garbage like you spew your constant racism based, PC based, social justice based BULLSHIT.


James, I think you may be getting close to a nerve, here.


----------



## new dog

James you may like this story of a Swedish chef attacked for looking like Trump. In the US people have to link these stories because CNN won't want to show this side of the story unless they have to.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ood-restaurant-looking-like-Donald-Trump.html


----------



## wraphter

mordko said:


> It's not exactly like the far right leaders have never won elections before. Wasn't it why Einstein had to flee Germany?


Was Hitler's daughter married to a Jew? Was Hitler's notorious lawyer before named Roy Cohn?
Was Hitler's present lawyer named Michael Cohen?

Some posters on this thread are like Don Quixote jousting at windmills.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> James, I think you may be getting close to a nerve, here.


No anger here-it is like arguing with special needs children.


----------



## mordko

wraphter said:


> Was Hitler's daughter married to a Jew? Was Hitler's notorious lawyer before named Roy Cohn?
> Was Hitler's present lawyer named Michael Cohen?
> 
> Some posters on this thread are like Don Quixote jousting at windmills.


^ Nice example of antisemitic conspiracies. Hitler didn't have a daughter and I have no idea what he means by "Hitler's present lawyer", but what has factual information got to do with alt right?


----------



## bass player

Obama is still silent on the riots. Hillary is still in hiding. Their true character and leadership qualities are on full display for everyone to see.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> ^ Nice example of antisemitic conspiracies. Hitler didn't have a daughter and I have no idea what he means by "Hitler's present lawyer", but what has factual information got to do with alt right?


See above comment about arguing with special needs children.


----------



## SMK

james4beach said:


> Running a story on *two men assaulting a Trump supporter. Now that's ridiculously selective*, isn't it?


You're the King of selective. One just has to look at the topic of your threads in the hot button discussion part of the forum to see that you're only interested in crimes committed by "white supremacists", "anti-refugees", and "white terrorists menacing the world" in your view. You're routinely suspicious of police agencies when they arrest bomb-plotters accusing them of being entrappers and have gone as far as calling the RCMP the "real terrorists." 

Thread after thread, link after link, that's mostly what you talk about because you claim the media "is not excited enough" to cover crimes that aren't committed by "non-Muslims", so you have taken it upon yourself to inform us about the under-reported crimes by the "white terrorists" of this world.

http://www.dw.com/en/refugee-friendly-german-mayor-beaten-unconscious/a-35932558 *I suppose your research couldn't find any of the thousands of good "white" Germans who welcomed and helped Syrian refugees.*
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/62825-White-right-wing-terrorists-strike-again *In this thread you falsely claimed the murder of a British MP had not been reported to your satisfaction level, as well as other nonsense.
*
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/93625-Indian-terrorist-in-Canada *Another race-obsessed thread.*

Contrast the content of what you had to say in your "white-right-wing-terrorists-strike again" thread with topics that don't interest-affect you much. http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...and-terrorists-at-war-latest-Brussels-attacks 

"My heart goes out to the victims of Colorado, *another victim of crazed white terrorists."*
"Europe really has it tough, flooded with migrants, and also geographically being close to the source of the terrorists."


----------



## humble_pie

.

the post below should be re-run every day at 6 am. Remind early risers to take the day's batshit crazy posters with a big grain of salt.

alt-right conspiracy babble is the dark side of the internet. One talking head spewing lies on his homemade basement video looms as large on youtube & appears to be as credible on youtube as veteran 20-year professional journalists from the NY Times or the globe & mail.

too many of the public are buying the lies. Mob rule has arrived. A lot of what we in the western world take for granted in civilzation - science, justice, freedom, human rights, fair trial, peace-keeping, rational discourse - is fast dissolving into hysterics.
.




james4beach said:


> Nelley, like most Trump supporters, says that alternative right-wing news sources are telling the truths that the main stream media just won't say. Rather, I maintain that these right-wing web sites are pure, batshit crazy.
> 
> It's critical that Canadians learn that these are nutcase web sites. They are part mental illness and part propaganda. What's on some of the Trump favourite web sites tonight?
> 
> *ZeroHedge*: "Soros has committed treason" (implies he should be killed), along with comment section from Trump supporters saying that lots of people want to kill this man. With references to how Soros is Jewish, and hiding out in Israel. This is bizarre anti-semitic propaganda against a man who is, in fact, a US citizen and billionnaire who happens to hold opinions contrary to another citizen billionnaire - Trump.
> 
> *ZeroHedge again*: A story on the former head of Breitbart News, reviewing criticism that he's associated with white supremacists. The conclusion from the ZH editor: "Judging the amount of hatred spewed at Bannon by virtually every member of establishment media and politics, he must have done something right."
> 
> *Breitbart*: Running a story on two men assaulting a Trump supporter. Now that's ridiculously selective, isn't it? Selecting the one case of violence against a Trump supporter and not a single mention of the Trump-supporting KKK, white supremacist activity, increases in hate crimes such as swastikas, Sig Heil, and text "You Deserve to be Gassed" (source: Haaretz), plus the liberal protestors getting shot during Portland's rally ...
> 
> *Infowars*: A special segment called "Trump not breaking promises, media lies again".
> 
> ^ hey yeah there's some fair reporting. Great place to get your information leading up to an election.
> 
> When I was younger I used to listen to conspiracy theory late night talk radio shows, stuff about con trails, the illuminati, and how the government is out to get you. Even at age 18, I laughed at this stuff as nutty entertainment. I would have never thought that this kind of insanity would become the primary source of information and THE BASIS for electing someone like Trump as president.
> 
> But that's what elected Trump. Stories like "Hillary has people murdered" and "Hillary is involved in satanic pedophile ring" <--- this stuff is considered normal among Trump people



.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Was Hitler's present lawyer named Michael Cohen?



:biggrin: this is the first time we've seen alt-right claiming that Hitler is alive in the present tense

so where is the fuhrer living these days? gracieland?

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> :biggrin: this is the first time we've seen alt-right claiming that Hitler is alive in the present tense
> 
> so where is the fuhrer living these days? gracieland?
> 
> .


You rocket scientists shouldn't be here-you should be out rioting with your fellow brain surgeons-FIGHT THE POWER.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> James you may like this story of a Swedish chef attacked for looking like Trump. In the US people have to link these stories because CNN won't want to show this side of the story unless they have to.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ood-restaurant-looking-like-Donald-Trump.html


Don't be silly, Trump doesn't have a mustache:


----------



## sags

As I have posted before, I don't think the protesting will be effective, but I fully support their right to peaceful protest and it should be covered by the media. Free speech is as equal to democracy as free votes.

What is the alternative........grey trucks traveling through neighborhoods, carrying a man with a loudspeaker droning on.........

"You are violating the law. Return to your homes immediately. Do not leave your homes. You will be arrested"

How to deal with it isn't complicated. Allow people to peacefully protest and arrest those committing criminal acts.


----------



## sags

I was in New Orleans for the first day of Mardi Gras, and at nightfall the street filled up with people partying and having a good time.

I am standing and watching some women standing on a balcony waving to a large group of young men on the sidewalk.

I start talking to a guy next to me and we are having a good chat. Something breaks out and he swiftly moves over and grabs a guy.

A couple others move in and help him restrain the guy. The guy is quickly removed from the scene and the party continues on.

The guy comes back and we start chatting again. He is an undercover police officer and says they are there to keep everyone safe.

He warns me to stand with my back against the wall when viewing the girls on the balconies. He says they are the lure for pickpockets who come behind all the young men looking up at the women.

He moves on......

Why don't the police..........or even protest groups have security within their midst to remove the criminals and keep the peace ?

People tend to restrain themselves if they don't know who among their midst are the police.

The idiots get themselves arrested because.........well, they are idiots.


----------



## wraphter

mordko said:


> ^ Nice example of antisemitic conspiracies. Hitler didn't have a daughter and I have no idea what he means by "Hitler's present lawyer", but what has factual information got to do with alt right?


Trump talked about his good friend Carl Icahn,a Jew. Did Hitler talk about his Jewish friends?
Trump said he might put Icahn in his cabinet. Did Hitler put Jews in his cabinet?

Trump said he wanted to stop Mexicans from crossing the border. Are Mexicans Jews?
Trump said he wanted to stop Muslims from entering the country. Are Muslims Jews?
Hitler repeatedly vilified Jews in his speeches. Did Trump repeatedly vilify Jews?

Trump has many Jews working for him. Did Hitler have many Jews working for him?

Trump's daughter converted to Judaism. If Hitler had a daughter do you think she would convert to Judaism?

Sheldon Adelson,Jewish casino owner,a staunch supporter of Israel, gave $25 million to Trump's superpac.

Sheldon Adelson doesn't give money to anti-semites.


----------



## mordko

A claim was made that Trump isn't extreme right because he was elected. It's a demonstrably stupid claim, because Hitler was elected. Does not make Trump Hitler, but nicely illustrates that the premise is idiotic.

The original claim was particularly moronic because it mentioned Einstein who had to leave Europe to escape the elected leader.


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> But that's what elected Trump. Stories like "Hillary has people murdered" and "Hillary is involved in satanic pedophile ring" <--- this stuff is considered normal among Trump people


Really?What percent of Trump's supporters believe this?


----------



## sags

I have yet to see an interview with a Trump supporter who quoted any of the offbeat reasons for voting for him.

The interviews I have seen, are that Trump supporters voted for him to "do something about their situation".

Trump's greatest danger is exactly what Newt Gingrich says.......getting pulled into the swamp.

Obama started out with great plans and got mired down in the muck.

Hopefully, Trump will be able to follow through on some of his good plans and will abandon some of the nonsense.

America can hope.

My concern about Trump is his "trigger finger" and response to foreign affair flareups.


----------



## sags

Trump is an enigma that people are struggling to understand.

He fires people and then welcomes them back for a different job. He hires people because they can do the job, not because he likes them.

He doesn't want to persue charges against the Clintons because "they are nice people".........huh ?

It seems to be for Trump..........the campaign he delivered was necessary to win and now all that is forgotten and he is another mode.


----------



## sags

Trump's biographer tells a story that he went into Trump's office and found him screaming and swearing into the phone at someone.

Trump hung up the phone, calmly smiled and said......."think it worked" ?

That is Trump and I don't think it will change.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Hopefully, Trump will be able to follow through on some of his good plans and will abandon some of the nonsense.



the problem is, an impulse-ridden demagogue doesn't know what's good or what's nonsense


.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> James you may like this story of a Swedish chef attacked for looking like Trump. In the US people have to link these stories because CNN won't want to show this side of the story unless they have to.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ood-restaurant-looking-like-Donald-Trump.html




this is a perfect example of right-wing-conspiracy-falsethink.

the swedish chef quickly deleted all of his original swedish Facebook story recounting this event, although a google crawler captured some details.

the UK's Daily Mail is an unreliable tabloid, however in this case it does cite the original Malmo police report.

the police report says the chef was accosted by only one "stranger," not three, in a fast-food outlet that was not his own restaurant. The police report does not recite any motives for the attack. Evidently the chef failed to tell the police any of the donald trump look-alike details that he briefly posted, then deleted, in Facebook.

possibly the details didn't happen. Possibly the chef made the details up. Possibly that's why he deleted them. Possibly that's why he said nothing to the Malmo police.

all we know is that the police file shows a one-man attack, following which the victim was taken to a hospital. Robbery could easily have been the motive. 4:30 am is not a safe hour to be out & about in any city anywhere in the world.

it's hardly surprising that alt-right conspiracy theorists would twist this story into a pretence of attacking donald trump, though.

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2016-11-12/stjarnkrogare-misshandlad-pa-snabbmatsrestaurang

,


----------



## Argonaut

I would like to remind everyone about Godwin's Law, which states: _as an online argument grows longer and more heated, it becomes increasingly likely that somebody will bring up Adolf Hitler or the Nazis. When such an event occurs, the person guilty of invoking Godwin's Law has effectively forfieted the argument._ 

There is also a handy graph for the visually inclined.









It seems that those on the left have been totally brainwashed by the increasingly obsolete mainstream media that Trump is _literally_ Hitler. It also is likely that those on the right such as myself have been brainwashed by Trump's charisma, the alt-right media, and Ivanka's angelic figure. So what can we do? Just look at president-elect Trump at face value. By all accounts in the last week he has been composed, measured, and has brought a message of unity. 

Most importantly he is very serious about getting to work and doing a great job. He has said he will forego his presidential salary, and take very little or no vacation. How can you not admire that? This is after the last two presidents who have taken record amounts of vacation, let alone the time Obama has spent campaigning for Crooked this year.


----------



## mordko

While Trump most definitely isn't Hitler, parallels with populists political leaders who play on nationalist/racist sentiments are acceptable.

As Godwin himself put it while drawing exactly this parallel: https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-talking-about/


----------



## gibor365

> Trump talked about his good friend Carl Icahn,a Jew. Did Hitler talk about his Jewish riends?


 Add that Israeli PM was the first leader who congratulated Trump and called him "true friend of Israel".


----------



## Eder

If he approves Keystone XL he will already have surpassed my expectations...somehow things are looking up.


----------



## SMK

Argonaut said:


> Also, I believe that Ivanka is actually an angel sent from the heavens. It will be nice when in 2024 she finally breaks that glass ceiling and becomes the first woman president.


Or Chelsea Clinton.


----------



## mordko

gibor365 said:


> Add that Israeli PM was the first leader who congratulated Trump and called him "true friend of Israel".


... Exactly what he said about Obama before. Trudeau also heartily congratulated Trump. Me thinks one should take this with a pinch of salt. In reality Bibi is reported to have major concerns. Add to it that Israel gave Trump cold shoulder when Trump tried to use Israel as part of his campaign - Bibi told him not to come. It's not like Trump ever holds a grudge (sarcasm). And Trump already started to renege on his promise to move the embassy to Jerusalem, just as expected.


----------



## CPA Candidate

Anytime you protest the result of a free and fair election, you need to consult what democracy means or make relocation plans. Trudeau is probably the worst PM I could ever imagine, but he's my PM for now.

Anyway, the more people hate on Trump, the more I start to like him. If you've been able to piss off this many lefties in one swoop, you're doing something right. Finally, government not beholden to the minority group of the day.


----------



## mordko

Democracy means a right to a peaceful protest, including against the government of the day.

It's the totalitarian societies that imprison or expel people who protest against the rulers.


----------



## CPA Candidate

mordko said:


> Democracy means a right to a peaceful protest, including against the government of the day.
> 
> It's the totalitarian societies that imprison or expel people who protest against the rulers.


plural democracies
1
a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2
: a political unit that has a democratic government
3
capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy — C. M. Roberts>
4
: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5
: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges


----------



## sags

Is Trump a conservative Republican ? Is he right leaning or left leaning politically ?

While the left and right fanatics are busy throwing mud at each other, serious people are trying to figure it out.

People in high finance are certainly trying very hard to figure it out. They lay out trillions of dollars on the future.

The right claim victory, but they didn't support Trump. They walked away and distanced themselves and now they all come a'calling. He owes them nothing. Trump named Steve Bannon his chief of strategy, yet Brietbart has been as hard on Republicans as it has on Democrats.

The left despise Trump, despite the fact he has adopted some major left wing economics and philosophy....huge infrastructure spend, same sex marriages, guaranteed healthcare for people with pre-conditions and young people, and an anti-free trade agenda.

Those aren't traditional Republican "values".

Trump was a Democrat for a long time and a left leaning one at that. He sponsored and praised Hillary and Bill Clinton.

Personally, I don't think Trump views himself as either a Democrat or Republican. 

He views his himself as the leader of a new political movement and has said so publicly many times.

From where I sit, it looks like there is going to be a battle of wills in Washington and Trump has the upper hand in that fight.


----------



## SMK

Eder said:


> If he approves Keystone XL he will already have surpassed my expectations...somehow things are looking up.


I don't see many reasons why he wouldn't approve it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...revival-now-a-near-certainty/article32825216/


----------



## olivaw

Nobody knows what Trump stands for. So everybody is making a guess. 

Many of the protestors are afraid that he will fulfill his campaign promises. 

Others take the more optimistic view that he didn't mean any of it. 

Trump isn't really saying. Perhaps he doesn't know. Those who have worked closely with him say he relies on intuition.


----------



## bass player

CPA Candidate said:


> Anyway, the more people hate on Trump, the more I start to like him. If you've been able to piss off this many lefties in one swoop, you're doing something right. Finally, government not beholden to the minority group of the day.


Yup, just look at who he has pissed off...clueless celebrities like Miley Cyrus and Madonna, mainstream media, race baiter Al Sharpton, crybaby university students with their trigger warnings and safe spaces, racist BLM thugs, etc. Anyone who can upset all those clowns is worthy of approval.


----------



## sags

SMK said:


> I don't see many reasons why he wouldn't approve it.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...revival-now-a-near-certainty/article32825216/


Trump recently said he will approve it and it will provide temporary construction jobs in the US. 

But, he also said the terms are negotiable and he wants 25% of the profit to perpetuity.

So the ball appears to be in TransCanada's court, because Trump has said crossing US soil isn't going to be free.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> [Donald Trump] views his himself as the leader of a new political movement and has said so publicly many times.




me i believe donald trump views himself as an entertainer who can wear any mask, play any role. He says himself that right now he's feeling overwhelmed to find himself in the White House. 

trump's new strategy wizard steve bannon looks to be cut from the same chameleon cloth.

from his early 30s, bannon has been a media investment banker dealing in fiction. He's produced or financed movies & TV shows. His whole world has been entertainment fantasy. He's left behind 3 ex-wives, some of them very messily, when they failed to act their roles.

there's no sign steve bannon ever came within a mile of real media or a real J-school. For this magus of magic, everything since 1990 has been about producing illusion. He's never let a fact or an ex-wife get in his way. He's perfect for donald trump.

the Oval Office. The world's most popular make-believe new soap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Bannon

.


----------



## olivaw

*Trump's pick of right-wing firebrand for White House job sparks outrage*



> "It is a sad day when a man [Stephen Bannon] who presided over the premier website of the ‘alt-right’- a loose-knit group of white nationalists and unabashed anti-Semites and racists - is slated to be a senior staff member in the ‘people’s house'," said Jonathan Greenblatt, head of the Anti-Defamation League.


----------



## bass player

Proving that he truly cares about law enforcement, Trump has been providing meals prepared by his chefs for the cops who have had to work the riots. The day after he was elected, he also called the widow of a NYPD officer that was recently murdered while on duty to offer his condolences.

Don't expect hear this from humble or the mainstream media...


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> me i believe donald trump views himself as an entertainer who can wear any mask, play any role. He says himself that right now he's feeling overwhelmed to find himself in the White House.
> 
> trump's new strategy wizard steve bannon looks to be cut from the same chameleon cloth.
> 
> from his early 30s, bannon has been a media investment banker dealing in fiction. He's produced or financed movies & TV shows. His whole world has been entertainment fantasy. He's left behind 3 ex-wives, some of them very messily, when they failed to act their roles.
> 
> there's no sign steve bannon ever came within a mile of real media or a real J-school. For this magus of magic, everything since 1990 has been about producing illusion. He's never let a fact or an ex-wife get in his way. He's perfect for donald trump.
> 
> the Oval Office. The world's most popular make-believe new soap.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Bannon
> 
> .


My first post on the US election thread, I said Trump was a chameleon. It was the only part in the whole post I got right though......:smile:

Sags on election forecasting...........epic fail.


----------



## james4beach

mordko said:


> *Conspiracy has always been big, e.g. in underdeveloped nations of Eastern Europe and Arab countries*. The stuff many people in these regions believe seemed crazy and laughable only 5 years ago. Surely enlightened N America was immune to obviously idiotic falsehoods? Apparently not.
> 
> Trump started his campaign with the "Obama is not American" conspiracy and finished with implications that US is run by a cabal. His chief strategist is known for outright fabrications like these


mordko, very well said. This kind of thing is the theme in underdeveloped nations and I never thought it could occur in America.

Like you said, Trump started it all with "Obama is not an American" (birther movement) and it's been a constant stream of idiocy since then.

What really scares me about all of this is, many of us were sitting around here scratching our heads about how ISIS/ISIL could "brainwash" so many people into believing their insane propaganda. Now I get it ... now I totally see how ISIS convinces people over the internet. You get the right social media channels, feed some attractive stories and get people to propagate them among their group. You give them alternative channels to get their information, and soon they are insulated from reality. I didn't think this was possible, but here we are. And if you get a hard-liner or a dictator using these methods to whip up mobs into a frenzy, this gets _really_ dangerous to liberty & rule of law.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> Nobody knows what Trump stands for ... Those who have worked closely with him say he relies on intuition.



he obviously flies on intuition, although the term usually reserved for persons as labile as trump is "impulse-ridden."

during the debates we constantly saw how trump couldn't stop himself from interrupting with irrelevancies, mostly insults. In the 2nd debate, he'd obviously been told to cut it with the interruptions.

so trump spent the whole of the 2nd debate sniffing, snorting, twitching, chewing, working his jaws, grimacing his facial muscles, anything to keep from braying like an ***.

.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> My first post on the US election thread, I said Trump was a chameleon. It was the only part in the whole post I got right though......:smile:



did you say that, sags?

so sorry! i missed it!!

but usually i'm one of the most careful to acknowledge, you should know that ...

.


----------



## sags

100% right Humble, but Trump says that was what was needed to survive the primaries and win the election.

It would be hard to argue that he was wrong as he gets ready to become the 45th President and there is nothing like success to smooth over mistakes.

The question is.......who is the real Donald Trump and what are his "real" plans or as you say.........does he even know.


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> did you say that, sags?
> 
> so sorry! i missed it!!
> 
> but usually i'm one of the most careful to acknowledge, you should know that ...
> 
> .


It got lost in everything else in that post that was dead wrong. It was entirely forgettable.......lol


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I have yet to see an interview with a Trump supporter who quoted any of the offbeat reasons for voting for him.


I thought that many Trump supporters were convinced that Hillary is a total criminal. Crowds at his rallies chant "lock her up". Doesn't that qualify?


----------



## Argonaut

It's funny that you guys are so terrified of the alt-right. This is mostly a collection of young men who are anti-establishment and use excessive amounts of memes to have a laugh. The alt-right weapon of choice is the keyboard, and the intent is often to troll or just joke around. The only time it's ever been an organized collective with a common purpose was to help get Donald Trump elected. Not because of "white nationalist" reasons, but anti-establishment ones. Lots of work was done in digging through Podesta emails, and now in tying George Soros to the riots. You may not agree with alt-right political opinions, but tell me when have you ever been accosted by this terrifying group of people and their cartoon frogs? Contrast that with the leftists protests, that are actually destroying public property.


----------



## olivaw

For those who still don't understand what the protests are about. 

And especially for those who try to dismiss them as riots.


----------



## james4beach

Argonaut said:


> It's funny that you guys are so terrified of the alt-right. This is mostly a collection of young men who are anti-establishment and use excessive amounts of memes to have a laugh . . . when have you ever been accosted by this terrifying group of people *and their cartoon frogs?*


You say to alt-right is just have a laugh, but I think that underplays the impact of that kind of conspiracy theory entertainment.

The cartoon frog, which you reference here as a harmless symbol, is commonly used in online comments that attack immigrants, Jews, black people. It is also shown alongside swastikas and is used as a Nazi symbol.

What you are calling harmless fun is actually a *very threatening symbol*. It is a threat to Jews and non-whites... the same way that painting a swastika in a public space is a threat.


----------



## Argonaut

Oh, I certainly don't deny that it is effective. I didn't know what to think of Trump a year ago, but I was swept up in the fun and games that came with the movement. Don't you think that having a laugh is good for the soul and an effective form of persuasion? Meanwhile the leftist tactic is to insult people and call them racist, sexist, homophobes, Nazis, whatever. We're tired of that ****. End of story.


----------



## james4beach

Argo maybe don't realize how threatening and menacing that kind of "fun" behaviour is to minorities in society.

A rally about putting up a wall, or banning Muslims, sounds fun to some people. But it's very threatening to non-whites. It causes elevated levels of stress hormones and a fear for their lives. Black people in the US think back to the days when it was fun for whites to hang black men or drag them behind trucks. And they take up guns & arms to protect themselves from the "fun and games" that are coming.


----------



## Argonaut

It is a non-violent movement. President-Elect Trump has said to the camera on 60 Minutes in very clear words for anybody threatening Muslims or immigrants to "Stop It". The Democratic Party has not said the same thing to people rioting. But these contentious things are real issues that can be tackled by policy. I'm sorry, but I am not in the business of rolling out the red carpet for people who enter the country illegally, or people who believe in a radical form of Islam. The issue of blacks and police is a more complicated subject, but I believe some common ground can be found. Watch this video of Van Jones and InfoWars coming together to agree on some things here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO-0i6jWe1U


----------



## olivaw

Rioting? Nope.


----------



## Argonaut

Trying to change the world to be more globalist. Totally open borders! Come and get your citizenship! Our country sucks, but we'll come to your country and get angry when it's not like our old country.


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> We're tired of that ****. End of story.




umm ... yada ... it's time for someone to mention that we're getting tired of your acid, bratty, stick-out-the-tongue toddlershit

ps how's Pegida playing in beautiful downtown port coquitlam? are the 4chan boyz making any inroads yet?

.


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> Trying to change the world to be more globalist. Totally open borders! Come and get your citizenship! Our country sucks, but we'll come to your country and get angry when it's not like our old country.


How do you know she's an immigrant?


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> umm ... yada ... it's time for someone to mention that we're getting tired of your acid, bratty, stick-out-the-tongue toddlershit


LOL. To be fair, there have been times when I have wanted to use these very words.


----------



## bass player

Maybe the new AG will use RICO to go after those who are organizing and bussing in the anarchists in these riots...


----------



## olivaw

And maybe Trump will be impeached on January 21st, 2017  He's off to a bad start.


----------



## bass player

The mayor of Chicago stated that they will remain a sanctuary city for illegals even though Trump has stated all federal funding will immediately cease for cities that refuse to follow the law.


----------



## Nelley

I think we can all agree that Trump represents an incredible *** kicking of the MSM by the alt media-this would have been impossible 30 years ago and highly improbable 20 years ago-so the trendline for the MSM and their braindead sheep followers isn't good at all.


----------



## Argonaut

Argonaut said:


> Meanwhile the leftist tactic is to insult people and call them racist, sexist, homophobes, Nazis, whatever.





humble_pie said:


> umm ... yada ... it's time for someone to mention that we're getting tired of your acid, bratty, stick-out-the-tongue toddlershit


Thank you humble_pie for proving my point in just a few short minutes! Very gracious to you. You're doing your job wonderfully, keep it up.


----------



## olivaw

I don't think we can all agree that the alt-media (or the alt-right media) was responsible for much. Most of the Trump supporters that have been interviewed don't mention the alt-media (or the alt-right media). 

We do know that some alternative media and fake news sites parrot Russian propaganda. But maybe it is a coincidence. It's not like the Russians tried to help the Trump campaign or anything.


----------



## capricorn

it appears Trump is off to a bad start. 
would be interesting to see how his supporters respond when there is no repeal of obamacare, no special prosecutor, no wall, no infrastructure building at a massive scale because he can not work with his own party etc.. etc..
What is with not staying in the white house all the time?


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> many of us were sitting around here scratching our heads about how ISIS/ISIL could "brainwash" so many people into believing their insane propaganda.
> 
> Now I get it ... now I totally see how ISIS convinces people over the internet. You get the right social media channels, feed some attractive stories and get people to propagate them among their group. You give them alternative channels to get their information, and soon they are insulated from reality ...
> 
> And if you get a hard-liner or a dictator using these methods to whip up mobs into a frenzy, this gets _really_ dangerous to liberty & rule of law.




it's all in how they're using the internet. Here's a NY times piece that shows how come breitbart is able to show surging ratings. For the simple reason that breitbart gets more *likes.*

breitbart rates higher, but not because it's better-researched or more accurate or more responsible about reporting hard news. It rates higher because it's an entertaining show & impulsive viewers *like* the show.

multiply this by the balkanized alt-right youtube channels & you get a dysfunctional world of isolated cellules who have lost their connection to reason & even to reality itself.

do the clintons feed on human body parts in satanic cult orgies? several thousand *like* clicks & the ratings will tell you this is 100% true. 

it's how the last-minute FBI fake bombshell about possible new compromised clinton e-mails put the kaibosh on the Democrat campaign. A swing vote cohort of educated white suburban voters turned hesitant in the face of a new barrage of alt-right likes & slipped away at the last minute.

far more dangerous is the fact that ISIL appears to be an extreme version of the same tribal mob rule, spreading itself via the internet.

jas4 i've been posting the above memes for days. I'm surprised you'd be one who would plagiarize other parties' ideas.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/b...edCenter&action=click&src=recg&pgtype=article


.


----------



## james4beach

humble, apologies, I must have missed your posts on the matter.

You're right about all of this. The "likes" and everything. I'm someone who has stayed away from Facebook, Twitter and all that stuff. Maybe this is why I didn't see any of this coming. Your analysis sounds spot-on and I agree wholeheartedly.

What I'm interested in is strategizing about how to prevent this kind of thing from poisoning Canadian culture and politics. Whether it's Trump/alt-right, or ISIL, they're using similar methods. And because this recipe has now been proven by Trump to work, it means that even more dangerous people (fascists? neo-nazis? religious extremists?) will employ the same methods to gain power and support.

To be clear, I'm talking about all nutcases in this equation, and that includes ISIS and religious radicals...

I view stopping this as a duty to my country.


----------



## olivaw

capricorn said:


> it appears Trump is off to a bad start.
> would be interesting to see how his supporters respond when there is no repeal of obamacare, no special prosecutor, no wall, no infrastructure building at a massive scale because he can not work with his own party etc.. etc..
> What is with not staying in the white house all the time?


It will be interesting. Experts are saying that Trumps supporters took him seriously but not literally. What if some of them _did_ take him literally. Those people are going to be .... annoyed, to say the least.


----------



## sags

capricorn said:


> it appears Trump is off to a bad start.
> would be interesting to see how his supporters respond when there is no repeal of obamacare, no special prosecutor, no wall, no infrastructure building at a massive scale because he can not work with his own party etc.. etc..
> What is with not staying in the white house all the time?


To be honest, I would probably prefer to stay in a Trump Tower penthouse over the White Housing private living quarters as well.

There are pictures online of the private Obama quarters. Kind of all right...but not great. Like living in a museum sort of.

Trump also says he will work for $1 a year. He will save the taxpayers $400,000 a year.

And Trump should bring a few pens with him.

View attachment 12945


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> It will be interesting. Experts are saying that Trumps supporters took him seriously but not literally. What if some of them _did_ take him literally. Those people are going to be .... annoyed, to say the least.


Damn Trump-he was supposed to have fixed the USA by now-what is that? You say he isn't even in the job yet? Not what some ignorant braindead sheep say.


----------



## bass player

Love it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Zq8iwjezc


----------



## sags

Interesting interview by President Obama today.

He hopes Trump can put more Americans on health care for less cost, thinks Trump will find it tough to get anything done, but overall wishes him well.

Reports are that Trump is finding it all a little overwhelming. Obama said he did at first as well.

I would imagine that Obama will be on Trump's speed dial if he wants some advice.

It is good to see the leaders trying to work together, even when many below them aren't making the effort.


----------



## sags

I wonder if Trump realizes how much his life will change.

He won't be able to go anywhere without a caravan of secret service agents, and often with a large entourage watching his every move.

Michelle Obama said she had enough of that life.


----------



## sags

Sean Hannity wants Trump to ban main stream media access to the White House..........as if that is going to happen. 

Is Sean Hannity still living on this earth ? Can he not just let it go............


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Michelle Obama said she had enough of that life.


Yes, but only after 8 not 4 years. Could she run you think in 2020?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Damn Trump-he was supposed to have fixed the USA by now-what is that? You say he isn't even in the job yet? Not what some ignorant braindead sheep say.


The main job of a president elect is to appoint senior staff. Trump named Stephen Bannon as his"chief strategist and senior counsellor”. 

Not to be alarmist or anything but isn't Bannon more of a propagandist than a strategist?


----------



## james4beach

olivaw said:


> Not to be alarmist or anything but isn't Bannon more of a propagandist than a strategist?


Sure. Hopefully he cuts back on the insanity and tabloid stuff.


----------



## gibor365

mordko said:


> ... Exactly what he said about Obama before. Trudeau also heartily congratulated Trump. Me thinks one should take this with a pinch of salt. In reality Bibi is reported to have major concerns. Add to it that Israel gave Trump cold shoulder when Trump tried to use Israel as part of his campaign - Bibi told him not to come. It's not like Trump ever holds a grudge (sarcasm). And Trump already started to renege on his promise to move the embassy to Jerusalem, just as expected.


 I don't recall that Israeli PM said just after elections , to Obama or Trudeau that they are "true friends of Israel", I also don't recall that Obama or Trudeau invited Bibi to meet "at first opportunity".
But it's not the point, the point is that comparing Trump to Hitler is ridiculous... also ridiculous that some antisemits and "liberals" are playing "antisemit" card against Trump...
So far I didn't see any indication that Trump is antisemit.... imho, he may be the best POTUS to Jews and Israel in modern times...

*Trump presidency is good news for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu after rocky relationship with Obama *
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is practically counting the days until President-elect Trump takes over.

P.S. and look at Bibi face , he's so freaking happy 
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...i-leader-benjamin-netanyahu-article-1.2867267


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> Thank you humble_pie for proving my point in just a few short minutes! Very gracious to you. You're doing your job wonderfully, keep it up.




thankx argo you have given me such a good laugh. I remember you so well. You were the 23-year-old kid who knew nothing about finance, with a BA in history & his first job in a TD branch in victoria BC.

you were helped in this forum more than any other youngster before or since. You were helped unstintingly, unconditionally, affectionately, many thousands of times, by a group of women including myself. 

i'm the party who baptized your TFSA stock picks as the famous Five-Pack & this thread still exists to prove my words (check out the first & early posts on that monster thread.) I'm the party who would praise & encourage you at every turn in the path (although we, the godmothers, privately did think you were a bit of a needy kid.)

it was moneyGal who patiently explained to you, over & over again, the long ropes you would have to haul in order to land a top career in finance. This was after you impudently said - having neither knowledge nor experience - that you intended to manage other people's money for a 1% fee, so would we please all bow down & start helping you with that project pronto.

it was marina638 who laughed & said she'd never give you one penny of her funds for your *management.*

it was toronto gal & myself who laughed & named you mister cheeky.

it was countless members on here who rushed to help you with suggestions about where to borrow funds for your graduate school tuition. Option suggestions, tax advice, raduate school, whatever you demanded, someone would always offer the help you were seeking.

now you are back. Alas time has not been kind. The youthful coverup has worn away & an ugly cruelty has emerged. Instead of mister cheeky, we are looking at such an unpleasant personnage. Mean. Rude. Disrespectful. Abrasive.

your new friends norbert hofer & marine le pen will probably *like* it though .each:

.


----------



## sags

Don't disagree Gibor, but Trump has repeatedly said he doesn't want to get involved in middle east problems, or even NATO problems.

Is a friendship with Israel and Russia compatible ? I don't know enough about that relationship. 

Would Russia defend Israel from attack ?

Who does Russia support in the Israel - Palestine conflict ?

Is Russia's support of Assad good or bad for Israel ?

Would Trump involve the US military directly to defend Israel and risk becoming involved in a broader war ? 

I don't know if his daughter being married to a Jewish fellow is a strong enough tie to guarantee he would.


----------



## james4beach

humble_pie: maybe he's still learning? Perhaps it's immaturity, not cruelty... we are all developing persons, constantly changing and evolving


----------



## olivaw

james4beach said:


> Sure. Hopefully he cuts back on the insanity and tabloid stuff.


Trump used tabloid stuff (aka lies) in his campaign and he villanized the legitimate media. Presumably Bannon was the author. Is there an indication, beyond a ridiculously vague title, that Bannon will be responsible for anything other than disinformation? 

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## mordko

gibor365 said:


> I don't recall that Israeli PM said just after elections , to Obama or Trudeau that they are "true friends of Israel", I also don't recall that Obama or Trudeau invited Bibi to meet "at first opportunity".
> But it's not the point, the point is that comparing Trump to Hitler is ridiculous... also ridiculous that some antisemits and "liberals" are playing "antisemit" card against Trump...
> So far I didn't see any indication that Trump is antisemit.... imho, he may be the best POTUS to Jews and Israel in modern times...
> 
> *Trump presidency is good news for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu after rocky relationship with Obama *
> Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is practically counting the days until President-elect Trump takes over.
> 
> P.S. and look at Bibi face , he's so freaking happy
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...i-leader-benjamin-netanyahu-article-1.2867267


The word is "antisemites". While Trump likely isn't Antisemitic, he is a dangerous populist who has attacked freedom of press, democratic institutions like courts and has actively used racism in his campaign. Jewish journalists are constantly attacked-by Trumps Neo nazi supporters and Antisemitic defamation and Protocols based conspiracy theories have figured in his ads, and have been promoted by his supporters on this board. He is dangerous and not realizing it is dumb.

Is he the only threat? Of course not. For years liberals have turned N American universities into a hostile environment for Jews. Obamas policies have been anything but friendly. The general damage from 8 years of Obama is why many voted for Trump or remained on the sidelines. I believe they were wrong.

For even if Trump does not implement his damaging isolationists policies, if he does not start trade wars and attempt to destroy democratic institutuions, as he promised... His supporters will probably then turn to someone from the far left.


----------



## james4beach

mordko said:


> While Trump likely isn't Antisemitic, he is a dangerous populist who has attacked freedom of press, democratic institutions like courts and has actively used racism in his campaign.


Is this the effect of the Super Moon? Definitely some points of agreement among humble_pie, mordko, and me


----------



## Argonaut

I have learned a lot in this forum, and also helped many others with questions of their own. I wager my ratio here has been more giving and less taking, that's for sure. Really, it's a good place to bounce investment ideas off of each other. Or at least it used to be. The intelligent talk in other areas of the forum has died down, and this general discussion board is a bit of a cesspool. 

I am interested in the election discussion because online anonymity allows for some debate without judgment of one's own person. In real life one has to guard their conservative views to defend oneself from being called a racist or sexist. Notice though that I do refrain from attacking other people directly, which other people do to me regardless. I don't mind, it means my arguments have some merit. You have to attack the ideas, not the person. Otherwise you lose the debate.

Two people who I single out for appreciation (one from the right and one from the left) are dogcom and james4beach. Dogcom has always been a good guy, a gold bug and a conservative like myself. In this thread he is calm and rational, and joins in some of the alt-right fun with a smile. James often has different opinions than I, but he is always polite and offers up a good avenue for discussion, both here and in the investment forums. Sags is also posting some good stuff lately, and seems willing to look at the happenings of the last week with an open mind. Anyway I think deep down you're all really great people, but perhaps could be more receptive to other ideas. There is a wave of anti-establishment and anti-globalism washing over the world. Wouldn't it be better to understand it before you demonize the people in it?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The main job of a president elect is to appoint senior staff. Trump named Stephen Bannon as his"chief strategist and senior counsellor”.
> 
> Not to be alarmist or anything but isn't Bannon more of a propagandist than a strategist?


Whenever Trump and Bannon are faced with a decision they should think: What would Kathleen Wynne do? Then do the opposite-if they follow this simple Wynnebag Rule success is assured.


----------



## james4beach

Thanks Argo, and I appreciate your forum inputs as well. I am going to make a stronger effort to understand the Trump-linked movement because obviously I have not understood it yet. And that's despite being in the USA and interacting with Trump supporters. I've sat beside more than one Trump supporter on my flights into Calgary.

It's possible for people to be anti-establishment and anti-globalist without threatening immigrants, Jews and visible minorities. Trump's campaign however has commingled these things, and that's upsetting (and destructive to society).


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Whenever Trump and Bannon are faced with a decision they should think: What would Kathleen Wynne do? Then do the opposite-if they follow this simple Wynnebag Rule success is assured.


Kathleen who? 

Some of us don't live in Ontario. Are you one of those Ontario elitists who believe that the entire country revolves around you? :smiley_simmons:


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> I thought that many Trump supporters were convinced that Hillary is a total criminal. Crowds at his rallies chant "lock her up". Doesn't that qualify?


Absolutely not.Reasonable people think there is/was a viable case against her regarding the emails. Comey saud there was over 110 classified emails on the unsecured server, 3 from another batch of work related emails and 2000 upclassified emails. She repeatedly said she couldn't remember to the FBI.She said her concussion was to blame for her memory lapses. Comey said she was extremely careless.Comey got a got of heat for his decision from his investigators. 

How many of the 60,000,000 Trump voters believe she murdered people or many believe she was involved in a pedophile ring as you claim? 

Some evidence would be appropriate otherwise you merely smearing millions of Trump supporters.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> thankx argo you have given me such a good laugh. I remember you so well. You were the 23-year-old kid who knew nothing about finance, with a BA in history & his first job in a TD branch in victoria BC.
> 
> you were helped in this forum more than any other youngster before or since. You were helped unstintingly, unconditionally, affectionately, many thousands of times, by a group of women including myself.
> 
> i'm the party who baptized your TFSA stock picks as the famous Five-Pack & this thread still exists to prove my words (check out the first & early posts on that monster thread.) I'm the party who would praise & encourage you at every turn in the path (although we, the godmothers, privately did think you were a bit of a needy kid.)
> 
> it was moneyGal who patiently explained to you, over & over again, the long ropes you would have to haul in order to land a top career in finance. This was after you impudently said - having neither knowledge nor experience - that you intended to manage other people's money for a 1% fee, so would we please all bow down & start helping you with that project pronto.
> 
> it was marina638 who laughed & said she'd never give you one penny of her funds for your *management.*
> 
> it was toronto gal & myself who laughed & named you mister cheeky.
> 
> it was countless members on here who rushed to help you with suggestions about where to borrow funds for your graduate school tuition. Option suggestions, tax advice, raduate school, whatever you demanded, someone would always offer the help you were seeking.
> 
> now you are back. Alas time has not been kind. The youthful coverup has worn away & an ugly cruelty has emerged. Instead of mister cheeky, we are looking at such an unpleasant personnage. Mean. Rude. Disrespectful. Abrasive.
> 
> your new friends norbert hofer & marine le pen will probably *like* it though .each:
> 
> .



Humble what does all this mean? Argo has a different view and explains some facts. Does he not have the right to do this or does he owe some people on the forum and should sit back and stay out, unless he backs their opinions.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Humble what does all this mean? Argo has a different view and explains some facts. Does he not have the right to do this or does he owe some people on the forum and should sit back and stay out, unless he backs their opinions.




please look at argo's recent posts. Look at all of them. Look at the words. They are rude, cruel, childish, taunting, spiteful, insulting. Argo thinks it's a barrel of fun to return here - where he was so amazingly helped by so many only a few short years ago - to stick out his tongue like a four-year-old.

anti-establishment & anti-globalism beliefs are not the unique domain of the alt-right. The majority of this forum is anti-establishment. Opinion is probably divided on global trade. 

a strong number of posters on here agree with both bernie sanders & with donald trump because both had many progressive ideas in common.

the issue is not the ideas. The issue that i find surprising is argo's taunts, jeers & insults.

if these had been posted by a new member i would not have noticed or cared. But coming from argo? argo who demanded & took so much? argo who was practically brought up by this forum? 

_too much_


.


----------



## new dog

CBS held back Trump's "stop it" comments when they could have helped stop the racism claims and such. Argo had posted about this topic earlier in the thread.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...emanding-end-to-any-violence-in-his-name.html


----------



## Eclectic12

wraphter said:


> ... How come you couldn't see that bringing foreign cash back to the US by companies like Apple would benefit the US?
> If they bought some US companies that would benefit the US economy. If they bought US govt bonds that would benefit the govt. They could fund infrastructure ...


Possibly ... but then again, if they have already decided building whatever is too expensive in the US for their own products, are they really going to spend those repatriated dollars on other US companies then skip leveraging whatever is cheaper?

The gate may be opened to give potential but I am not clear on what is going to make it worthwhile to rebuild the jobs from a past era.


There were all sorts of complaints thirty years ago about how the cheaper, temporary foreign workers were stealing Canadian jobs. Trouble was then and likely is still now that no Canadians wanted to apply.


Time will tell though ... there might be some twist in what is attempted that might make the potential gain happen.



Cheers


----------



## new dog

Humble I read the word sh-t but I am missing all the other stuff, I must be reading the wrong posts. I saw the reference to the Alex Jones show but still I don't care if someone watches Alex Jones it is the same as CNN.


----------



## sags

new dog said:


> CBS held back Trump's "stop it" comments when they could have helped stop the racism claims and such. Argo had posted about this topic earlier in the thread.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...emanding-end-to-any-violence-in-his-name.html


Trump has a bully pulpit. If he wants to speak out on anything, he doesn't need CBS to do it for him.


----------



## Eclectic12

sags said:


> Upthread mentions of repatriation of corporate profits for heavily discounted tax rates.
> Isn't that what we on CMF would refer to as "moral hazard" ? Wouldn't it send a message to corporations to shove money offshore ?


The bigger question IMO is what else besides lower tax rates will convince a company that has already decided that building in the US is too expensive to reverse their course?

Likely there would be some trickle down due to the money coming back but I am fuzzy on what is going to convince a shift in policy.


Cheers


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Trump has a bully pulpit. If he wants to speak out on anything, he doesn't need CBS to do it for him.


No, he doesn't "need" CBS, but he made a plea to America and CBS deliberately chose to not show that part for their own selfish gain. Misleading garbage like that from mainstream media are one of the reasons why Trump won the election. People like you defending CBS are another reason why Trump won.


----------



## sags

Trump will be receiving the deepest US intelligence briefings, that few people in the world ever see.

The "real" inside stories on Russia, China, Iran will be laid out for Trump. The inside information on how the US gathers intelligence, CIA operations, military readiness, cyber warfare and a myriad of other things ......will be before his eyes.

They say that after Barrack Obama received his first full briefing he left with a stone cold face.

(Maybe he found out there ARE alien bodies in Area 51......just kidding).

Interesting developments just today though. Nothing like ratcheting up the tension before Trump gets his feet on the ground.

Iran signed a military alliance deal with China. How would that affect a possible future military strike on Iran nuclear development sites ?

China warned Trump there would be repercussions against the US if free trade is interfered with. 

They hinted at banning the sale of US cars, eliminating all corn, soybean and wheat sales, halting all Apple phone sales......etc.

We don't know if Trump has had his 'stone face" moment yet, when he will start to understand what the job will require.


----------



## Argonaut

new dog said:


> Humble I read the word sh-t but I am missing all the other stuff, I must be reading the wrong posts. I saw the reference to the Alex Jones show but still I don't care if someone watches Alex Jones it is the same as CNN.


Do we really live in a world where saying **** is worse than disparaging someone? Notice where all of the personal attacks are coming from. There is mention of Toronto.gal upthread, who I believe was bullied off the forum by you-know-who. How many others have been? I am immune to these sorts of things but others aren't.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> No, he doesn't "need" CBS, but he made a plea to America and CBS deliberately chose to not show that part for their own selfish gain. Misleading garbage like that from mainstream media are one of the reasons why Trump won the election. People like you defending CBS are another reason why Trump won.


Trump could have told the press, "I gave an interview on CBS and told my supporters to stop harassing people. CBS decided not to make it public."

What is difficult about saying that ? ......except it isn't true.

I think the real answer isn't what Fox News is spinning but that Trump knows how networks work and all about ratings and content, and was fine with the show broadcasting on Sunday for a large audience. Perhaps he also wanted to appear "Presidential" and didn't think appearing on Fox News would provide that atmosphere.

Trump chose to give the interview to CBS. 

Think he was sending a message to Sean Hannity and Fox News maybe ?


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> Oh, I certainly don't deny that it is effective. I didn't know what to think of Trump a year ago, but I was swept up in the fun and games that came with the movement. Don't you think that having a laugh is good for the soul and an effective form of persuasion? Meanwhile the leftist tactic is to insult people and call them racist, sexist, homophobes, Nazis, whatever. We're tired of that ****. End of story.


The alt-right are the right wing equivalent of SJWs. They do their cause more harm than service, especially when they stoop to stuff like using anti-Semitic code like echoes ((())) around names of Jews.


----------



## new dog

This is true sags it will be very hard once he really knows what is going on. On countries like Iran and North Korea I believe Russia and China should have been or should be dealing with these countries.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> No, he doesn't "need" CBS, but he made a plea to America and CBS deliberately chose to not show that part for their own selfish gain. Misleading garbage like that from mainstream media are one of the reasons why Trump won the election. People like you defending CBS are another reason why Trump won.


Not sure what you're talking about. I saw that in the 60 minutes interview.


----------



## Argonaut

andrewf said:


> The alt-right are the right wing equivalent of SJWs. They do their cause more harm than service, especially when they stoop to stuff like using anti-Semitic code like echoes ((())) around names of Jews.


I've spent a lot of time in the alt-right in the last year, and while I have heard of that, I've never seen it. I certainly am opposed to it.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> The alt-right are the right wing equivalent of SJWs. They do their cause more harm than service, especially when they stoop to stuff like using anti-Semitic code like echoes ((())) around names of Jews.


I agree.

Most of those types of people belong in an insane asylum. 

Why should people concern themselves with the meanderings of a minute number of semi-functional morons ?

The US isn't going to be taken over by Nazi hordes, Muslim radicals, or zombies. 

Cripes...people should get a grip and give their fellow citizens a little credit. 

Nobody.....Republican or Democrat is going to tolerate any of that stuff for long.


----------



## andrewf

I take the alt-right as seriously as I take the SJWs. I think the alt-right is a greater risk of violence, but SJWs have more institutional power/do more social harm. Both I don't see as helpful.


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> Do we really live in a world where saying **** is worse than disparaging someone? Notice where all of the personal attacks are coming from.



it's the alt-right who are the bullies in this forum. The nellies & the basses & with their awkward, embarassing, homemade youtube posts.

argo it's too bad you've joined them. Small *c* conservative ideas are great. There's plenty of support for libertarian economics in this forum. Left, right & centre, all are keen to shrink big government.

i'm left wondering why you don't get over the bratspeak. The spit-in-your-face-stick-out-the-tongue tone of voice. It's not going to help your career. You saw upthread that it's rubbed others the wrong way. And they weren't even people who had ever helped or even knew you.

.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> =anti-establishment & anti-globalism is not the unique domain of the PEGIDA supporting Ironwars alt-right. The majority of this forum is anti-establishment, opinion is probably divided on global trade.


I agree Financial forums tend to attract conservatives and this board is no exception. The board has change though. Anti-Muslimism and the alt-right have becoming increasingly prevalent. 

I'm not just seeing it on this board either. People are becoming increasingly willing to express such sentiments in the real world too. It's becoming ugly out there.


----------



## gibor365

> There is mention of Toronto.gal upthread, who I believe was bullied off the forum by you-know-who. How many others have been? I am immune to these sorts of things but others aren't.


Very true!


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> The alt-right are the right wing equivalent of SJWs. They do their cause more harm than service, especially when they stoop to stuff like using anti-Semitic code like echoes ((())) around names of Jews.


Lots of Jewish journalists in the alternative media-do you even know what you mean when you use the term "alt-right"?


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> No, he doesn't "need" CBS, but he made a plea to America and CBS deliberately chose to not show that part for their own selfish gain.



absolutely CBS *did* show that part of the video. All of it. The president-elect repeated his plea several times, the camera was perfect & the message was successfully broadcast to millions of viewers all over the world.

everybody except bass player the eternal denier, it appears. Bass why do you keep on with corrosive, destructive lies like these:




bass player said:


> Misleading garbage like that from mainstream media are one of the reasons why Trump won the election. People like you defending CBS are another reason why Trump won.


.


----------



## new dog

The media has forced people to seek other forms of news because they are not being told the story. There is countless examples of CNN cutting feeds or simply not showing the other side. Every time there is a nazi symbol put up CNN shows it and says oh no more Trump supporters. But when Trump supporters are abused it gets no air time. This we all know is fact as well as protesters being paid to protest. 

I also heard somewhere that 2 million illegals may have voted in the election, so there is Hillary's over the top popular support. We also all know it is in her interest to import everyone and anything into the country for votes. 

Bottom line is if we only have CNN and very little other media the US would be destroyed as we know it. Most Dems would be in the firing line as the newcomers won't put up with their way of life for very long.


----------



## Argonaut

Note that what I am about to say is pure rumour, but I could imagine it being true based on Secret Service testimony.

Apparently Hillary Clinton was physically violent towards Robby Mook and John Podesta at midnight election day. Poor Podesta had to face the American public like a puppy abused by his master.

Meanwhile Donald Trump was the definition of calm as everyone cheered Florida and he remained ice-cool like the alpha of the pack.


----------



## new dog

Soros still working hard.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/democrats-soros-trump-231313

This guy needs to go he is just a rich trouble maker.


----------



## james4beach

What do you mean "this guy needs to go"? Where should he go?

Soros is a wealthy man with Jewish heritage. He is widely hated by the Trump crowd.

And why shouldn't a US citizen be free to do as he wants?


----------



## sags

If Soros sends me a bucket of cash, I will organize a real protest for him............honk, honk.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> Note that what I am about to say is pure rumour, but I could imagine it being true based on Secret Service testimony.
> 
> Apparently Hillary Clinton was physically violent towards Robby Mook and John Podesta at midnight election day. Poor Podesta had to face the American public like a puppy abused by his master.
> 
> Meanwhile Donald Trump was the definition of calm as everyone cheered Florida and he remained ice-cool like the alpha of the pack.


I'm sure Podesta will show up dead, exsanguinated and with pentagrams carved in his flesh any day now.


----------



## Nelley

Wall Street is working overtime kissing Donald Trump's *** http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/wall-street-donald-trump-2016-214452


----------



## mordko

new dog said:


> Soros still working hard.
> 
> http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/democrats-soros-trump-231313
> 
> This guy needs to go he is just a rich trouble maker.


That's called democracy. There is no law against being involved in politics if you are Jewish and opposed to Trump. Not yet anyway.


----------



## Argonaut

The only people using Soros and Jewish in the same sentence are left-wingers. I think that is race-baiting in itself. We don't like him because he is a puppeteer globalist that is inciting violence in America, not because of his ethnicity.

The article shows that the Democrats still haven't figured it out yet. World War II is coming and they're hastily building the Maginot Line. Money doesn't buy victories, and people don't want this sort of corruption anymore. Establishment politicians are bought and sold for by their donors.


----------



## andrewf

Unfortunately, I don't think Trump will get anything done on the issue of money in politics.


----------



## james4beach

The Anti Defamation League has been quite clear on their opinion that a lot of the Trump circle rhetoric is anti-semitic. They are directly opposed to the appointment of Bannon
http://www.jta.org/2016/11/14/news-...breitbart-chief-stephen-bannon-as-top-adviser

The talk about stopping/killing Soros is more subtle. This is part of the notion that there are global 'elites' running America. This is code for wealthy Jews. The people writing this these days know better than to explicitly say Jewish people. But it's exactly what is meant. Perhaps Argo, a younger generation, is unfamiliar with this code that has been around for decades.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/...Trump-Blames-The-Jews-For-His-Failed-Campaign

A central part of the Trump platform was that wealthy elites and bankers control America. I will stand by my assertion that this is heavily implied to mean wealthy Jewish people.
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/133...dline-perfect-example-trumpian-rhetoric-works


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think Trump will get anything done on the issue of money in politics.


Trump is already playing with the definition of blind trust. His money and his politics will be intertwined.


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> The only people using Soros and Jewish in the same sentence are left-wingers.


Wrong. The discussion of Soros' Jewish faith was introduced when an alt-right conspiracy theorist on this forum tried to argue that Soros was a Nazi and an antisemite.


----------



## Argonaut

James, your articles confuse me. They seem to be saying that it is anti-semitic to be against globalism and the big banks controlling politics. And that somehow you can be an anti-semite and be pro-Israel at the same time. I think this is a case of left-wing people who happen to be Jewish taking a political issue and turning it into a religious/ethnic one. Doing that is very dangerous because it cheapens the anti-semite accusation. But let's be clear, Donald Trump is not an anti-semite. His son-in-law and daughter are Jewish and I'm sure he has many Jews working in his companies. I can tell you as someone in the "mainstream alt-right" (it pains me to say this as they are both loaded terms) that there is no anti-semitism. I'm sure it exists in the fringes of right-wing communities, but you're only giving them power by drawing attention to them. 4chan jokes about Jews mostly in an ironic sense but they joke about everything.


----------



## olivaw

Peaceful protests continue .... but they are small. 

*Students lead new wave of anti-Trump protests*

The reporter interviewed a number of bystander. Responses were varied. 

The over-arching theme of the protestors is: 


> No Trump
> No KKK
> No racist USA.


----------



## james4beach

Argonaut: I hope you're right, that anti-semitism is not widespread among the Trump supporters. It certainly exists among some of them, but I really hope you are correct when you say that it's not widespread.

For what it's worth, I just asked my (American Jewish) coworker who sits next to me. He thinks that the Trump-supporting online media spouted lots of anti-Jewish messages, but he doesn't know if these are beliefs that Trump supporters actually have.


----------



## olivaw

A few opinions on Stephen Bannon, Trump's new chief presidential strategist. 

*How Donald Trump's New Campaign Chief Created an Online Haven for White Nationalists*

*KKK, American Nazi Party praise Trump's hiring of Bannon*

*Appointment of 'white nationalist' Steve Bannon must be reversed, critics declare*

*Critics See Stephen Bannon, Trump’s Pick for Strategist, as Voice of Racism*

*White nationalists see advocate in Steve Bannon who will hold Trump to his campaign promises*

*What Stephen Bannon as Donald Trump's chief strategist means*

From the last: 



> If anyone is still doubting that Donald Trump, the President-elect of the United States, won at least in part because of his divisive rhetoric on race, look who he picked as his chief strategist.
> 
> Stephen Bannon, 62, is the executive chairman of Breitbart News, viewed widely as the online news outlet of the "alt right" - an internet-savvy movement incorporating white nationalists, men's rights activists and Islamophobia.


ETA: Antisemitism is one form of hate. Visible minorities are gays are primary targets in the United States.


----------



## andrewf

One wonders whether Trump supporters will begin to follow Breitbart with a more skeptical eye now that it is essentially a propaganda outlet for the government. Might as well get your news from whitehouse.gov.


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> A central part of the Trump platform was that wealthy elites and bankers control America. I will stand by my assertion that this is heavily implied to mean wealthy Jewish people.


Absolutely not.

His slogan was "Make America great again." He blamed illegal immigrants and bad trade deals for the current problems.

Trump didn't run against the elites,international bankers,or Wall street.
There was only one speech that had that tone.

He praised Carl Icahn many times. Icahn is Jew and billionaire.

Carl Icahn is his friend. How could he run against Jewish bankers and praise Carl Icahn?
How could he run against Jewish bankers when his son-in -law and close advisor is Jewish?


The central theme of his campaign was his anti-immigration campaign against Mexicans and Muslims and his emphasis that foreign nations were taking advantage
of the US whether it be NATO or trade agreements with foreign nations. 
He said he was going to renegotiate these trade agreements and bring those jobs back.
He was going to get NATO to pay up.
He said he was going to cut corporate taxes to create more jobs.

He said the airports in the US were terrible . He promised to put people to work improving them.

He was going to scrap Obamacare and bring in a new system that would be wonderful and much cheaper.

He was going to improve relations with Russia.

He was going to withdraw from security relationships around the world and let those nations fend for themselves. 
He said he might give nukes to Korea and Japan. 

His club in Palm Beach, Mar-e-lago was one of the first to admit Jews.

Some people are hearing a dog whistle that only they can hear.


----------



## james4beach

wraphter said:


> Trump didn't run against the elites,international bankers,or Wall street.
> There was only one speech that had that tone.


Trump's October speech accused Hillary of guiding global elites that rig the economy
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/14/us/politics/trump-comments-linked-to-antisemitism.html?_r=0

I don't know how much Trump himself said other than this one speech, but the Trump-supporting media outlets have run countless articles about elites running the country. It is one of the most frequent themes in the alt-right, whether or not Trump says the words himself.


----------



## Argonaut

olivaw said:


> A few opinions on Stephen Bannon, Trump's new chief presidential strategist.
> 
> *How Donald Trump's New Campaign Chief Created an Online Haven for White Nationalists*
> 
> *KKK, American Nazi Party praise Trump's hiring of Bannon*
> 
> *Appointment of 'white nationalist' Steve Bannon must be reversed, critics declare*
> 
> *Critics See Stephen Bannon, Trump’s Pick for Strategist, as Voice of Racism*
> 
> *White nationalists see advocate in Steve Bannon who will hold Trump to his campaign promises*
> 
> *What Stephen Bannon as Donald Trump's chief strategist means*


These articles are so ridiculous. They're all from left-wing news sites. And they all use some sort of terrible false-logic that wouldn't fly in a grade 10 essay.

Steve Bannon = alt-right. Alt-right = white nationalist. Therefore Steve Bannon = white nationalist! The problem is, the only people calling the alt-right white nationalists is the liberal media. Show me where Steve Bannon said he was a white nationalist. The term alt-right has become so loaded because of attacks from the left-wing that I don't want to even use it anymore. It isn't even a great name anyway.


----------



## james4beach

No Argo, the reason we're saying that white nationalists are involved in this, is because they do things like posting up these flyers in Toronto that encourage WHITES to read alt-right propaganda.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/east-york-alt-right-racist-posters-1.3850386

Whether you like it or not, your alt-right brotherhood contains white nationalists and they are very dangerous people.


----------



## james4beach

KKK has also delivered flyers to homes in B.C.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37628514

Additionally, anti-Muslim and anti-Sikh posters have emerged at Alberta university campuses.

These are signs of rising right-wing extremism and pro-white nationalism in Canada. Don't get complacent. This is on the rise, and now that Trump is emboldened the lot of them, we're going to see much more of it.


----------



## mordko

The term alt right became loaded not because they were maligned by the left wing media. That's ludicrous. It became loaded because groups within altright have been calling to exterminate Jews and others. There is significant variability in the degrees of racism between various alt right groupings, but that does not change what they are all about.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-radical-the-alt-right-has-gotten-this-year/


----------



## mordko

This what actual conservatives think about alt right http://www.dailywire.com/news/9441/..._content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro#


----------



## mordko

And this is a good backgrounder on Shannon. Again, from the real right rather than the far right http://www.dailywire.com/news/10770...m_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro


----------



## gibor365

Funny that you are talking of some unknown Trump supporters who are antisemitic, but forget that Leaked emails show how Democrats (DNC) screwed Sanders because he's Jewish


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> The central theme of his campaign was his anti-immigration campaign against Mexicans and Muslims and his emphasis that foreign nations were taking advantage
> of the US whether it be NATO or trade agreements with foreign nations.
> 
> He said he was going to renegotiate these trade agreements and bring those jobs back.
> 
> He was going to get NATO to pay up.
> 
> He said he was going to cut corporate taxes to create more jobs.
> 
> He said the airports in the US were terrible . He promised to put people to work improving them.
> 
> He was going to scrap Obamacare and bring in a new system that would be wonderful and much cheaper.
> 
> He was going to improve relations with Russia.
> 
> He was going to withdraw from security relationships around the world and let those nations fend for themselves.
> 
> He said he might give nukes to Korea and Japan.




gosh it sounds like the best foreign & domestic policy in the whole world, _ever_.

especially the parts about bringing all the jobs back (no details) & providing wonderful & much cheaper health care (no details.) What were the democrats thinking of, that they didn't understand all this.

please don't start the BS about how donald trump will be able to whizz the 2 trillion offshore corporate dollars stateside so he can pay for the bread & circuses.

those offshore cash stashes have been impossible quagmires for nearly two decades. Republican & democratic presidents alike have toiled over the contentious issue without resolution. The sole success so far was achieved by dubya bush, who in 2004 repatriated significant offshore monies by offering a one-time tax holiday of 5.25%. 

more recently, obama offered a flat 14% tax holiday to all corporations whether they brought the overseas funds home or not. There were no takers.

afaik donald trump's plans include a 15% tax rate even though the above experiences have clearly shown that corporations such as GE, microsoft, merck & pfizer - all of whom have bigger overseas cash stashes than apple - are looking for tax rates closer to the 5% level of 12 years ago.

trump is also said to have threatened apple with possible requirements that it must manufacture all its systems & components on US soil. This looks like bravura posturing since some of the corporations - pfizer for example - are readying back-burner plans to move their head offices overseas if necessary.

oh & how will trump "get NATO to pay up?" does NATO owe washington any money? no one has ever heard about that one ...


.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Funny that you are talking of some unknown Trump supporters who are antisemitic, but forget that Leaked emails show how Democrats (DNC) screwed Sanders because he's Jewish


Not so much because he was Jewish, but because he was thought to be unelectable because he is Jewish (and a socialist).


----------



## olivaw

^The DNC staffer thought that Sanders was unelectable because he was an _*atheist*_. There was one email and the staffer apologized.


----------



## gibor365

olivaw said:


> ^The DNC staffer thought that Sanders was unelectable because he was an _*atheist*_. There was one email and the staffer apologized.


It's also funny  So, POTUS can be black, but in mo way Jewish atheist?! 
P.S. and this is who am I, the most undesirable mix


----------



## olivaw

*National Post: Stephen Bannon, Donald Trump’s chief strategist, ‘happy to pander’ to racism but does he believe it?*


> Bannon had the Breitbart site embrace the “white-supremacist alt-right,” turning its online comment sections into “cesspools” of bigoted trolls – despite founder Andrew Breitbart’s strong anti-racist beliefs, wrote editor Ben Shapiro after quitting the company earlier this year.


----------



## olivaw

gibor365 said:


> It's also funny  So, POTUS can be black, but in mo way Jewish atheist?!
> P.S. and this is who am I, the most undesirable mix


Not at all. The email was from a Southern Baptist discussing Southern Baptists. My reading of the email is that he believed that his folks would prefer a religious person to an atheist. Sanders' heritage was unimportant, but his belief in God matters to Southern Baptists. 

It is nothing compared to Steve Bannon's embrace of white supremacists, nazis and the KKK.


----------



## james4beach

CBC's As It Happens interviewed former Breitbart News employee, Kurt Bardella, and asked about his experiences with Steve Bannon at Breitbart: http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/podcasts/asithappens_20161114_37469.mp3 (audio)

_The ex-employee says_: "Bannon is someone who spoils for a fight. He loves conflict . . . What I found concerning was the idea that a media entity would become the de facto propaganda arm of the political campaign. Now as we transition to the White House, *we have for the first time in our history a media entity that is positioned to be the propaganda vehicle for the President.*"

How can this be anyone's idea of progress and draining the swamp? A media mogul who shows loyalty to the candidate, helps the candidate get elected, and then is rewarded with a top position as the administration's propaganda chief? This is the kind of thing you get in dictatorships, definitely Russia.


----------



## olivaw

Not a protest, but NY Governor Andre Cuomo is engaged in a form of *constructive civil resistance* to the Trump campaign's hate speech. In an open letter, he wrote: 



> But while we honor America by honoring the results of the election, we will fight as fiercely as we can, at every opportunity that presents itself, to reject the hateful attitudes that pervaded throughout the 2016 campaign. We cannot unhear what we have heard. The voices of the Ku Klux Klan, white nationalism, authoritarianism, misogyny and xenophobia. A generally disdainful view of American ideals.
> 
> We all hoped that when we woke up on Nov. 9 the ugliness of this campaign season would finally be gone. But on the day after Election Day, a swastika and the words “make America white again” appeared, spray painted on a softball dugout in Wellsville — in our state of New York.
> 
> I cannot and will not pretend that these things are normal even if millions of Americans voted for a campaign either because of these values or in spite of them. I know there are millions more people like me — both Democrats and Republicans who reject them. As I said on other occasions, this election was for the soul of America, and that is why today so many of us feel as we do today; we are soul sick. But as we accept the results of the election, we do not accept these positions.


----------



## james4beach

Exactly. We can't unhear what we heard from Trump's campaign. He's the most un-American candidate I've ever seen. It's almost as if he hates America, to want to tear it apart like this by fuelling division. Much of his campaign was spent complaining about (and spitting on) American ideals and values, while admiring foreign ones. Haaretz writes in this article,



> If Trump were a liberal, if he would be saying any of these things as a Democratic presidential candidate – never mind the incredible accumulation of his invectives - the GOP and the right wing media would tear him part. He’d be castigated as a Communist sympathizer, a treasonous back-stabber, a self-hating American.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> gosh it sounds like the best foreign & domestic policy in the whole world, _ever_.
> 
> especially the parts about bringing all the jobs back (no details) & providing wonderful & much cheaper health care (no details.) What were the democrats thinking of, that they didn't understand all this.
> 
> please don't start the BS about how donald trump will be able to whizz the 2 trillion offshore corporate dollars stateside so he can pay for the bread & circuses.
> 
> those offshore cash stashes have been impossible quagmires for nearly two decades. Republican & democratic presidents alike have toiled over the contentious issue without resolution. The sole success so far was achieved by dubya bush, who in 2004 repatriated significant offshore monies by offering a one-time tax holiday of 5.25%.
> 
> more recently, obama offered a flat 14% tax holiday to all corporations whether they brought the overseas funds home or not. There were no takers.
> 
> afaik donald trump's plans include a 15% tax rate even though the above experiences have clearly shown that corporations such as GE, microsoft, merck & pfizer - all of whom have bigger overseas cash stashes than apple - are looking for tax rates closer to the 5% level of 12 years ago.
> 
> trump is also said to have threatened apple with possible requirements that it must manufacture all its systems & components on US soil. This looks like bravura posturing since some of the corporations - pfizer for example - are readying back-burner plans to move their head offices overseas if necessary.
> 
> oh & how will trump "get NATO to pay up?" does NATO owe washington any money? no one has ever heard about that one ...
> 
> 
> .


hello humble,

You left out the first part of my post. I quoted james4beach who claimed erroneously imo, that the central theme of Trump's campaign was
about the influence of international bankers ,which is a code for Jewish bankers . 



wraphter said:


> james4beach said:
> 
> 
> 
> A central part of the Trump platform was that wealthy elites and bankers control America. I will stand by my assertion that this is heavily implied to mean wealthy Jewish people.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely not.
> 
> His slogan was "Make America great again." He blamed illegal immigrants and bad trade deals for the current problems.
> 
> Trump didn't run against the elites,international bankers,or Wall street.
> There was only one speech that had that tone.
> 
> He praised Carl Icahn many times. Icahn is Jew and billionaire.
> 
> Carl Icahn is his friend. How could he run against Jewish bankers and praise Carl Icahn?
> How could he run against Jewish bankers when his son-in -law and close advisor is Jewish?
Click to expand...

Regarding the offshore money of American companies, my disagreement with you was not about how to get it back, which you have explained in detail, it was about your contention that it wouldn't help the US once it wad repatriated. 
I stated that it could be invested in American equities and government bonds which would benefit the US.There would also be taxes when it was repatriated.


----------



## wraphter

Andrew Breitbart,who died in 2012, was Jewish and a supporter of Israel.



> Breitbart was born in Los Angeles, California, on February 1, 1969.[10] He was the adopted son of Gerald and Arlene Breitbart, a restaurant owner and banker respectively, and grew up in the affluent suburb of Brentwood, Los Angeles. He was raised Jewish; his adoptive mother had converted to Judaism when marrying his adoptive father.[11][12] He attended Hebrew school and had a bar mitzvah.[13] He said that his birth certificate indicated his biological father was a folk singer.
> Andrew would remain proudly Jewish, although not always religiously observant. He would sing Hebrew songs at work, while also teasing his Orthodox Jewish colleagues for keeping a kosher diet.[14] Breitbart later said of his profession: “I’m glad I’ve become a journalist because I’d like to fight on behalf of the Israeli people... And the Israeli people, I adore and I love”[15][16]


Joel B. Pollak, who is Jewish ,is the editor at large 
of Breitbart as well at the in-house counsel. Here he defends Steve Bannon against charges of anti-semitism.



> *I have worked with Stephen K. Bannon, President-elect Donald Trump’s new chief strategist and senior counselor, for nearly six years at Breitbart News. I can say, without hesitation, that Steve is a friend of the Jewish people and a defender of Israel, as well as being a passionate American patriot and a great leader.*
> 
> .........
> 
> It defies logic that a man who was a close friend, confidant, and adviser to the late Andrew Breitbart — a proud Jew — could have any negative feelings towards Jews. As I can testify from years of work together with Steve in close quarters, the opposite is the case: Steve is outraged by antisemitism. If anything, he is overly sensitive about it, and often takes offense on Jews’ behalf.
> 
> Steve cares deeply about the fate of Jewish communities in America and throughout the world, a fact that is reflected in Breitbart News’ daily coverage. It was in that spirit that Steve joined Breitbart News CEO Larry Solov (also Jewish) in launching Breitbart Jerusalem last year, fulfilling Andrew’s dream of opening a bureau in Israel specifically to cover the region from an unabashedly Zionist perspective.
> 
> The American ideal, which Andrew Breitbart defended zealously, is E pluribus unum, “Out of many, one.” We gain a deeper appreciation for people from other backgrounds when we understand our own. That is the spirit in which Breitbart News has always operated with Steve as executive chairman. We have Jewish, Catholic, evangelical, Muslim, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, and gay writers (did I miss anyone?).


Bannon,recently appointed to the Trump White House, is now accused of promoting anti-semitism. Very strange.

Trump may be a friend of Israel . Obama wasn't.


----------



## olivaw

Steve Bannon may be a white nationalist or he may be a cynic who fans the flames of white nationalism. 


> The elevation of Bannon to a powerful position in the White House is an epochal event in American politics, one that has been condemned by the N.A.A.C.P., the A.D.L., and many Democratic leaders, including Harry Reid, whose spokesman said in a statement, “President-elect Trump’s choice of Steve Bannon as his top aide signals that White Supremacists will be represented at the highest levels in Trump’s White House.” The Republican consultant John Weaver, who advises Ohio Governor John Kasich, tweeted, “Just to be clear news media, the next president named a racist, anti-semite as the co-equal of the chief of staff.” Weaver also wrote, “The racist, fascist extreme right is represented footsteps from the Oval Office. Be very vigilant America.” William Kristol, the editor of the conservative Weekly Standard, asked on Twitter, “Is there precedent for such a disreputable & unstable extremist in [White House] senior ranks before Bannon?”


http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/steve-bannon-will-lead-trumps-white-house


----------



## Nelley

Argonaut said:


> These articles are so ridiculous. They're all from left-wing news sites. And they all use some sort of terrible false-logic that wouldn't fly in a grade 10 essay.
> 
> Steve Bannon = alt-right. Alt-right = white nationalist. Therefore Steve Bannon = white nationalist! The problem is, the only people calling the alt-right white nationalists is the liberal media. Show me where Steve Bannon said he was a white nationalist. The term alt-right has become so loaded because of attacks from the left-wing that I don't want to even use it anymore. It isn't even a great name anyway.


Here is the logic: anyone not swallowing the MSM nonsense is a bad person. IMO this approach (lets just call it the JamesBeach approach) is going to fail miserably-when you start calling everybody who disagrees with you a racist, sexist, blah blah blah it it devalues the label and renders it meaningless.


----------



## Nelley

I gotta say this thread is getting ridiculous-Trump isn't even the POTUS yet and the absurd opposition to the guy even trying to do any good when he gets there is evident-this thread reads like a KKK thread from 2008 screaming about Obama.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> hello humble,
> 
> You left out the first part of my post




good morning Your Royal Highness,

it's true i did leave some of your topics out. The problem was that you had more than 15 of them, all jumbled together higgledy-piggledy into one post.

i shall try to do better in the future, hoping that will please you


PS once again, how & why is donald trump going to "make NATO pay?"

PPS you have said that you do indeed make financial contributions to this forum, as it is a finance-focused forum. Could you please point these out. Thanks very much.


.


----------



## dotnet_nerd

This is a financial forum. So how do you think Trump's actions will affect Canadians?

-For example, if NAFTA is scrapped or renegotiated, will that end the TN Visa program? Maybe that's a good thing, it might reverse the "brain drain" that left us hurting for talented people.

-What about snowbirds, will Trump slam the door on us? Make it more difficult to buy vacation properties?


----------



## wraphter

humble,

I was replying to james' assertion



james said:


> A central part of the Trump platform was that wealthy elites and bankers control America. I will stand by my assertion that this is heavily implied to mean wealthy Jewish people.


This is a gross distortion of Trump's campaign. There was a few references to international bankers but not many. It was most definitely 
not the "central part". That was Mexican immigration, the Muslim problem, trade deals and NATO.

Did Trump say he was going to deport Mexicans? Yes
Did Trump say he was going to deport Jews? No

Did Trump say he was going to stop Muslims from entering the country? Yes
Did Trump say he was going to stop Jews from entering the country? No

Did Trump say a lot about ISIS and terrorism? Yes
Did Trump talk a lot about Israel and the Palestinians? No

When Trump was delivering those stump speeches to his white audiences in the Midwest he was focusing on Crooked Hillary,emails,NATO immigration etc. 
When Trump was delivering those stump speeches to his white audiences in the Midwest was he focusing on Jews and Israel? No


----------



## new dog

Good summary wraphter, it is all just propaganda and Trump did make it clear to his supporters to stop it, when it comes to racist actions.

James on Soros he has the right to do what he does but should be held accountable for it in the media. If a rich Trump supporter was paying for protests every where against Clinton, in this same way, CNN would never let Trump live it down.

Dotnet I would think softwood lumber would be an easy target for Trump to do now. On the entire NAFTA I believe all three countries said they were open to renegotiating it if it came to that.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> humble,
> 
> I was replying to james' assertion



but then why reply to me?

better to ask james4 himself, no?


the fact is that your original post presented a vast selection of what you believe is donald trump's domestic & foreign platform. Me i questioned some of the inflated promises as i believe they may be empty bread-&-circus campaign promises.

plus i've inquired about your claim that trump is going to "make NATO pay." This makes no sense to me, as to the best of our knowledge NATO does not owe washington any money. I will agree, though, that the claim does make good trump propaganda.

i also inquired about your claim that you contribute to this finance-focused forum on financial issues. Won't you please point these out, i've missed them & would appreciate your financial knowledge.

.


----------



## Eclectic12

wraphter said:


> ... His slogan was "Make America great again."
> He blamed illegal immigrants and bad trade deals for the current problems ...
> He said he was going to renegotiate these trade agreements and bring those jobs back ...


Question is ... can he find a way that Trump the business man can still make money.
There are probably areas that it will work but where the wage difference is so large (ex. US autoworkers in 2015 being lists as around $58 an hour with benefits versus Mexico at around $9 an hour with benefits), I am not so sure how easy it will be to sell a higher price to the US public and/or find ways of reducing costs.



wraphter said:


> ... He said he was going to cut corporate taxes to create more jobs.


Cutting taxes will make more money available ... the question is whether there are business opportunities that create jobs for the money to fund.
If the opportunities are out there where only money is lacking, wouldn't the current low borrowing rates have made far more money available than lower tax rates?


It will be interesting to see how the Trump administration deals with these issues.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

dotnet_nerd said:


> This is a financial forum. So how do you think Trump's actions will affect Canadians?
> 
> -For example, if NAFTA is scrapped or renegotiated, will that end the TN Visa program? Maybe that's a good thing, it might reverse the "brain drain" that left us hurting for talented people.


Maybe ... but with ex-pats writing "I had three job choices in Toronto and thousands offshore", do you really think the US making it more difficult is going to keep people in Canada or just shift them to other global opportunities?




dotnet_nerd said:


> -What about snowbirds, will Trump slam the door on us? Make it more difficult to buy vacation properties?


How would that help Americans, especially in places like Florida?
It's outside money flowing in to help with the local state economy, whether it goes into rentals or property purchases or restaurants etc.


I expect the bigger impacts will be along the lines of the auto sector (depending on what a revised NAFTA looks like) or other cross border sales.


Of course it is all speculation as he hasn't taken power yet or provided details.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

new dog said:


> Good summary wraphter, it is all just propaganda and Trump did make it clear to his supporters to stop it, when it comes to racist actions.


Question is ... should some supporters not stop or protesters keep being violent, what will he do when in power?

It looks like some are taking his campaign and possibly election as license to step up what they want.




new dog said:


> ... Dotnet I would think softwood lumber would be an easy target for Trump to do now.


What makes it easy?
Wouldn't it be better to have included as part of the new & improved NAFTA?

I am not sure of the situation now but I do recall an US university prof writing on op-ed piece in the mid '90's saying that US corporations were playing fast and loose with their complaints about the stumpage fees considering that several US states were doing the same as Canada.




new dog said:


> ... On the entire NAFTA I believe all three countries said they were open to renegotiating it if it came to that.


Where one partner wants to change it that badly, why wouldn't they renegotiate?
I wouldn't think negotiation would be fast though, as each party likely wants to put on the table any perceived shortcomings.

The US could use a take or leave it approach but that may end up with a return to the previous levies, fees and general red tape.


Cheers


----------



## sags

I don't remember Trump mentioning consumer prices once during the campaign. 

I don't think it is even on his radar on NAFTA and other trade deals.

He has focused entirely on returning jobs back to America, and renegotiating trade deals won't accomplish that.

Only a stiff tariff on imports will force companies who want to sell products in the US to move their manufacturing.

Trump is open to trade, but he wants a deal for the US.......nobody else concerns him.

Keystone would be an economic plus for Canada. Trump says he will approve it if the US receives 25% of the profit.

For Trump........it is all about the money. When he talks about free trade.......he means America comes out ahead.

The number 1 issue by far for Trump supporters was employment and the economy.

It doesn't matter what else he may accomplish, if he fails on employment and the economy.....he will be a one term President.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> but then why reply to me?
> 
> better to ask james4 himself, no?
> 
> 
> the fact is that your original post presented a vast selection of what you believe is donald trump's domestic & foreign platform. Me i questioned some of the inflated promises as i believe they may be empty bread-&-circus campaign promises.
> 
> plus i've inquired about your claim that trump is going to "make NATO pay." This makes no sense to me, as to the best of our knowledge NATO does not owe washington any money. I will agree, though, that the claim does make good trump propaganda.
> 
> i also inquired about your claim that you contribute to this finance-focused forum on financial issues. Won't you please point these out, i've missed them & would appreciate your financial knowledge.
> 
> .


humble_pie,

I was replying to james' contention that the central part of Trump's campaign was about international bankers as a dog whistle for Jewish bankers. I listed my recollection of Trump's topics to show that they did not include what james maintains.

I replied to you because you replied to me and misinterpreted what I said .

Whether these talking points were right or wrong is beside the point. I was only attempting to show what he was talking about.

Here is a word cloud of what people remember reading,hearing or seeing about Trump. It does not include the word 'Jew' or 'banker' .

The words 'speech','Mexico', 'immigration' and 'president' are quite large.

All I was attempting to do was show that Trump did not talk very much about the subject james said he did.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Keystone would be an economic plus for Canada. Trump says he will approve it *if the US receives 25% of the profit.*


It's simply a figure he threw right off the top of his head like much of the other stuff he said, not a "negotiated" number so forget about it.

Yes, "it's the economy, stupid." Ironic the phrase worked for Bill Clinton presidency in 1992, not for Hillary 24 years later.

Don't forget Trump also called himself "the law and order candidate."


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> He has focused entirely on returning jobs back to America, and renegotiating trade deals won't accomplish that ...
> 
> Keystone would be an economic plus for Canada. Trump says he will approve it if the US receives 25% of the profit.
> 
> The number 1 issue by far for Trump supporters was employment and the economy. It doesn't matter what else he may accomplish, if he fails on employment and the economy.....he will be a one term President.




try though i do, i cannot see where the trumpjobs will come from.

repatriating offshore cash stashes will take years to negotiate. The only success to date - in close to 2 decades of negotiations by both republican & democratic white houses - was dubya bush's initiative in 2004. It succeeded because bush offered a one-time tax break to US corporations of 5.25%.

trump reportedly is offering 15% tax plus threats to re-shore many corporate functions such as product manufacture. I have not heard one peep that any of the corporations with large offshore treasuries - GE, microsoft, pfizer, merck, apple - are listening.

another theory about how-to-pay-for-infrastructure-jobs is that trump will initiate another massive QE. He'll print up the trillions to pay for the jobs. But economists are saying QE won't work this time, banks are at or beyond their limits.

plus the above - inflating the money supply once again style keynesonomics - is supposed to be anathema to trump supporters. It's the dead opposite of what they claim they want. They are supposed to be libertarian economists, right? they hate central bank encumbrances, right?

me i certainly do worry about the effect upon all americans - all ages, colours, genders, religions - some two years down the road, if it turns out that trump achieves nothing

.


----------



## sags

Absolutely right Humble,

Trump admits that he said these things to get elected. Now he has to deal with reality.

Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton revived economies, but they were at the beginning of government intervention and debt.

Since then, every successive US government, Republican or Democrat has used government debt to shore the economy and lower tax rates, and the debt is now reaching unsustainable heights.

There is going to be a big battle in Washington in March 2017 when the debt limit of $20 Trillion will have to be raised.

There is an additional $10 Trillion in unfunded liabilities.

The plan of lowering taxes, while continuing spending can only result in higher debt levels.

If they want to spend, they have to collect revenues and that means raising taxes, not lowering them.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Absolutely right Humble,
> 
> Trump admits that he said these things to get elected. Now he has to deal with reality.
> 
> Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton revived economies, but they were at the beginning of government intervention and debt.
> 
> Since then, every successive US government, Republican or Democrat has used government debt to shore the economy and lower tax rates, and the debt is now reaching unsustainable heights.
> 
> There is going to be a big battle in Washington in March 2017 when the debt limit of $20 Trillion will have to be raised.
> 
> There is an additional $10 Trillion in unfunded liabilities.
> 
> The plan of lowering taxes, while continuing spending can only result in higher debt levels.
> 
> If they want to spend, they have to collect revenues and that means raising taxes, not lowering them.



underscore, underscore

yes i'm afraid it was all bread-&-circuses & the people bought it

i'm literally afraid because the american economy will directly affect canada & also because of the increased nuclear threat(s)


.


----------



## sags

Humble........I don't know it is fair to blame Keynes economics as the source of government debt.

It is my understanding that in a nutshell........Keynes said governments should save during the good times so they have money to spend during the bad times. I don't know that his theory was that governments should spend all the time and borrow in good times and bad.

You know more about such things, as you have referred to Friedman in the past.......am I wrong ?


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> humble_pie,
> 
> I was replying to james' contention that the central part of Trump's campaign was about international bankers as a dog whistle for Jewish bankers. I listed my recollection of Trump's topics to show that they did not include what james maintains.
> 
> I replied to you because you replied to me and misinterpreted what I said .
> 
> Whether these talking points were right or wrong is beside the point. I was only attempting to show what he was talking about.
> 
> Here is a word cloud of what people remember reading,hearing or seeing about Trump. It does not include the word 'Jew' or 'banker' .
> 
> The words 'speech','Mexico', 'immigration' and 'president' are quite large.
> 
> All I was attempting to do was show that Trump did not talk very much about the subject james said he did.



once again, how is donald trump "going to get NATO to pay up" as you have claimed?

once again, where are your financial posts in this forum, which you have claimed?

.


----------



## sags

I agree that my big concern with Trump is military and foreign policy.

If he blows up the economy, it is only money and we can eat soup.

Blow up the world and............


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> I agree that my big concern with Trump is military and foreign policy.
> 
> If he blows up the economy, it is only money and we can eat soup.
> 
> Blow up the world and............




we have such a knowledgeable member on here

it's too bad he can't post on these matters
his insights would be so valuable
re the military
he always had such a firm grip on the art of the possible while peacekeeping

but

i rather believe he's been stopped from posting on foreign affairs in social media

sags you know who i mean


.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> I gotta say this thread is getting ridiculous-Trump isn't even the POTUS yet and the absurd opposition to the guy even trying to do any good when he gets there is evident-this thread reads like a KKK thread from 2008 screaming about Obama.


Welcome to winning Nelley. You represent the establishment now. Get used to playing defence.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Strong language in this UK perspective. I think this guy must have spent too much time reading on CMF since the "Who will win US election" thread started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs


----------



## Eclectic12

sags said:


> I don't remember Trump mentioning consumer prices once during the campaign.
> I don't think it is even on his radar on NAFTA and other trade deals ...


Maybe not now ... but my American relatives have consumer prices as well as cheaper prices for jobs done by Mexicans (be they legal or illegal) 
on their radar, long before Trump announced he was going to run.




sags said:


> Trump is open to trade, but he wants a deal for the US.......nobody else concerns him.
> For Trump........it is all about the money. When he talks about free trade.......he means America comes out ahead ...


Which is all well and good, when the partners feel they are getting a reasonable deal.

If not, then more than the US will likely re-institute special taxes, customs fees etc. that the deals did away with.




sags said:


> ... The number 1 issue by far for Trump supporters was employment and the economy ...


True ... though if being employed means one feels one is falling behind due to other rising costs - I doubt the voters are going to be happy.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

SMK said:


> sags said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keystone would be an economic plus for Canada. Trump says he will approve it *if the US receives 25% of the profit.*
> 
> 
> 
> It's simply a figure he threw right off the top of his head like much of the other stuff he said, not a "negotiated" number so forget about it.
Click to expand...

I agree it's a figure off the top of his head but I am not so sure he is going to drop the idea of the US receiving some other percentage.

One of many things to be watching from afar ...


Cheers


----------



## olivaw

*Trump getting first Presidential Daily Brief today*. 

Perhaps he will emerge from the meeting a changed man. The world is not simple. As Donald Rumsfeld one said .. 



> ".. there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones."


I just typed a Donald Rumsfeld quote. I feel like I need to wash my hands.


----------



## twa2w

Just for the record. Trump did not say he would make nato pay. What he said was that he would make other countries pay their fair share. IIRC he was talking about the United Nations, not nato, which is funded largely by the USA( something like 90%)
Second, on the free trade issue, you guys do realize if NAFTA is revoked that the old can/us free trade agreement is still in place and reactivates if nafta is cancelled.
Of course Trump could also renege on that one too.


----------



## Argonaut

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11747865

As expected, celebrities are backing down from their toothless "threats" of leaving the USA under Trump. Too bad. Or good, if they planned to move to Canada. I always said they should move to Mexico in solidarity with their brothers-in-arms. But of course they never would.

The truth is, they will always stay in the USA because that's where all the attention is. A lot of them are attention-craving by nature. Canada is too quiet for them.


----------



## Argonaut

There are fears of Trump being unstable and blowing up the world.

China has said their first conversation with Trump was "diplomatically impeccable". https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-media-praise-trumps-experience-ideology-100311906.html

Russia is also willing to get along with Trump. Doesn't that sound like a safer world to you? He's tough but willing to make deals. Other foreign leaders see that. Maybe not in France, but Hollande will soon be replaced.


----------



## gibor365

Obviously The World with Trump will be safer that with Hillary


> Russian President Vladimir Putin has said he hopes to build trust and improve relations with the U.S. when president-elect Trump takes over in January. Russia looks forward to “their good personal relationship,” Putin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in a recent interview with the Associated Press.
> 
> Dmitriev is perhaps even more optimistic, positing that a Trump presidency is great for his country and a “huge opportunity” to “reset Russia’s relationship with the U.S.” He added, “Just as the previous one didn’t work, we hope that this one would. And we’re very impressed by President-elect Trump’s position that he wants to have good cooperation with Russia.”
> 
> He insisted Russia wants to be a “good partner,” saying “with President-elect Trump, there is a possibility to work jointly between Russia and the U.S. on issues like fighting terrorism and to make sure that our economies continue to grow as we provide access to each other to our markets.”


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/high-hopes-in-russia-that-trump-will-ease-trade-sanctions/

*How Trump Is Good for China*
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/15/opinion/how-trump-is-good-for-china.html?_r=0


----------



## james4beach

The world maybe, but I think the US is more at risk from race wars and terrorist attacks.

ISIS loves Trump and the anti-Muslim rhetoric. If Trump succeeds in whipping up Americans into an anti-Muslim frenzy, you will get a war of the extremists: Christian extremists vs Muslim extremists. And that's exactly what ISIS wants.

The muslim terrorists and masterminds don't want to a calm, harmonious society. They want a society of racial hostility. Then they can easily recruit young men by saying: look how the Christian Americans attack you, and hate you. Trump election is the best thing ISIS could have hoped for.

And black & hispanic, that part should be obvious.


----------



## olivaw

gibor365 said:


> Obviously The World with Trump will be safer that with Hillary


Putin wanted Trump in the W.H. His happy words don't tell us much.


----------



## olivaw

John Bolton may become Trump's secretary of state. He was GW's ambassador to the U.N. Here is a sample of Bolton diplomacy in 2006. 






ETA: For those who are not familiar with American cabinet positions, the Secretary of State is America's top diplomate.


----------



## gibor365

olivaw said:


> Putin wanted Trump in the W.H. His happy words don't tell us much.


Obviously  Putin doesn't want war with US


----------



## sags

Trump and Putin talk and a few hours later Russia starts "bombing the hell" out of the city of Aleppo.

That doesn't make Trump look very good. Maybe Putin calculates Trump is weak.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ume-as-russia-announces-major-syria-offensive


----------



## humble_pie

Mukhang pera said:


> Strong language in this UK perspective. I think this guy must have spent too much time reading on CMF since the "Who will win US election" thread started.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs




someone else posted this

oh like about 5 days ago


----------



## james4beach

I think humble pointed this out? (Am I right humble)?

Trump is a narcissist. Look at how Clinton baited him during the debates, and Trump couldn't resist the bait.

Trump is easy to manipulate and that's why the world powers like him. China and Russia will control him like a puppet. The man wants to be a celebrity, and loves praise.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> John Bolton may become Trump's secretary of state. He was GW's ambassador to the U.N. Here is a sample of Bolton diplomacy in 2006.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ETA: For those who are not familiar with American cabinet positions, the Secretary of State is America's top diplomate.




what a find

cut from the same cloth


----------



## Eclectic12

twa2w said:


> ... Second, on the free trade issue, you guys do realize if NAFTA is revoked that the old can/us free trade agreement is still in place and reactivates if nafta is cancelled.


Maybe ... maybe not ... other than the comment that NAFTA superceded the FTA, I am not finding any reference to what will/should happen after Trump triggers the leaving in six months clause.




twa2w said:


> ... Of course Trump could also renege on that one too.


The question is, should NAFTA be left and the FTA be in effect is what Trump thinks of the FTA. If he doesn't like it, it looks like there's the same "leaving in six months" clause ... though I am not sure the negotiators build in anything to worry about whether it would be both gone in six months or both gone in a year.


Then too, should the US leave NAFTA ... do Mexico and Canada keep NAFTA as a two party agreement?


Cheers


----------



## humble_pie

twa2w said:


> Just for the record. Trump did not say he would make nato pay. What he said was that he would make other countries pay their fair share. IIRC he was talking about the United Nations, not nato, which is funded largely by the USA( something like 90%)



you are quite right twa2w. Although IIRC trump was indeed talking about NATO & he did say he would "send the bill" to NATO countries that pay less than their assessed percentage of GDP. Canada is one of those countries.

i'm replying here because the issue that concerns me is not the far-off issue of who pays for NATO, but rather the immediate issue of what to do about the perfect storm of fake "news" that bombards the internet night & day. Astonishing numbers of people are making up lies & deliberately posting lies all over the internet. We can see how, very soon, those lies become part of reality.

when donald trump plays on the sensitive american nerve of how foreigners have harmed the US economy - & when his accolytes turn this into a fairytale that somehow NATO "owes" money to washington - then citizens who do respect truth & rational discourse need to intervene to set the record straight.

i'm pleased to see that this fake news problem is being discussed at top levels in the US. One of the issues barack obama said he intends to work on after his retirement is the "balkanization of the media." He mentioned homemade video youtube channels where a single amateur talking head repeating lies has as much visual weight as a veteran CBS or bloomberg reporter.

this morning i saw a headline that Facebook itself is working on how to control the fake news that keeps spreading like wildfire through its accounts.

back to donald trump. He does need money to fund his elaborate hiring & health programs. IMHO it's helpful to discuss, in a realistic manner, where or how he will be able to find those funds. IMHO it's not helpful to name fairytale sources of magic money that do not exist, such as pretend NATO debt to washington.

.


----------



## Mukhang pera

humble_pie said:


> someone else posted this
> 
> oh like about 5 days ago


Mea culpa. It's hard to keep abreast of all that gets posted here on the U.S. election forum.


----------



## Argonaut

The one thing I'm leery about with Trump is trade, I'm hoping his rhetoric on Mexico doesn't apply to Canada. I think free trade is a great thing for countries that are similar. The USA and Canada have a lot of similarities that Mexico doesn't.. for instance I don't think Canadian manufacturing will put many US workers out of business. Canadian blue-collar folks expect high wages like just in the US.


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> I think humble pointed this out? (Am I right humble)?



not me, at least a million people have called donald trump a narcissist. Me i think he would make a great barroom cowboy.


psssst jas4 i noticed one detail recently that nobody else has commented on yet. Shall we share it?

recently donald's first wife Ivana chatted to a reporter about her recollections of life with donald. The only interesting detail she let slip is that donald never sleeps for more than 3 hours each night.

not sleeping is often a key symptom of bipolar disorder. Not sleeping is part of the manic syndrome.

hmmmn

.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> One of the issues barack obama said he intends to work on after his retirement is the "balkanization of the media."


Considering the terrific job he did with Obamacare the anticipation is overwhelming.

He spoke so slowly at today's press conference in Greece that it looked like he fell asleep or had amnesia during the pauses.

Pretty narcissist too.


----------



## james4beach

humble_pie said:


> recently donald's first wife Ivana chatted to a reporter about her recollections of life with donald. The only interesting detail she let slip is that donald never sleeps for more than 3 hours each night.


humble_pie, yes I've heard that too! Trump has previously bragged about how he does not sleep much. Here's an article discussing a hypothesis that Trump is chronically sleep deprived. This could explain all kinds of odd behaviours.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-sleep_us_574606cde4b055bb11710fcf
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-bulkeley-phd/donald-trump-the-sleep-de_b_9413588.html

Good health, and good sleep, are key for decision-makers. With enough sleep deprivation you also get paranoia and emotional instability.


----------



## Argonaut

Trump doesn't sleep much because as a businessman and dealmaker every hour of the day is valuable. This is a guy with a terrific work ethic. No vacation, no sleep, just MAGA.


----------



## james4beach

Argonaut, that's ridiculous. Every human needs a baseline level of sleep, and good sleep enhances productivity.

Do you want a doctor or surgeon who only gets 3 hours of sleep a night?

Is the President of the USA, who controls the entire US military, any less important?


----------



## humble_pie

^^

it's not the sleep deprivation i had in mind, it's more the possibility of a bipolar disorder with manic symptoms, which one wonders about with the donald, particularly when he behaves so impulsively at times .each:

another trait that manics have in common is that they tend to act wild & crazy with money, eg bankruptcies etc.

oh & there's grandiosity too. Manics can act grandiose.

.


----------



## Eclectic12

Argonaut said:


> ... I think free trade is a great thing for countries that are similar. The USA and Canada have a lot of similarities that Mexico doesn't.. for instance I don't think Canadian manufacturing will put many US workers out of business. Canadian blue-collar folks expect high wages like just in the US.


Yet the complaints from the US are about how Canada *is* putting US workers out of business, including at times how universal healthcare is an unfair advantage for Canadian companies. 

Then when the dominant forces are able to get concessions from the US unions, the justification for moving manufacturing from Canadian plants to the US is cheaper US costs.


So while I recoginise that Canada is a lot closer to the US when compared to Mexico, I am not sure it will make much of a difference.


Cheers


----------



## james4beach

humble_pie said:


> it's not the sleep deprivation i had in mind, it's more the possibility of a bipolar disorder with manic symptoms, which one wonders about with the donald, particularly when he behaves so impulsively at times .each:
> 
> another trait that manics have in common is that they tend to act wild & crazy with money, eg bankruptcies etc.
> 
> oh & there's grandiosity too. Manics can act grandiose.


Ah, that's interesting -- possible mental illness. Interesting, with the side effects, like delusions of grandeur.

I can definitely see it. In any case, I don't think he's physically fit to be president. With his obesity and fast food obsession, plus minimal sleep, the man could drop dead or have a stroke any moment. He doesn't have the stamina to be president and I shudder to think how he's going to fly around, meeting/insulting world leaders.

P.S. how happy can someone be right now that we elected Trudeau?? The contrast alone!


----------



## twa2w

humble_pie said:


> you are quite right twa2w. Although IIRC trump was indeed talking about NATO & he did say he would "send the bill" to NATO countries that pay less than their assessed percentage of GDP. Canada is one of those countries.
> 
> i'm replying here because the issue that concerns me is not the far-off issue of who pays for NATO, but rather the immediate issue of what to do about the perfect storm of fake "news" that bombards the internet night & day. Astonishing numbers of people are making up lies & deliberately posting lies all over the internet. We can see how, very soon, those lies become part of reality.
> 
> when donald trump plays on the sensitive american nerve of how foreigners have harmed the US economy - & when his accolytes turn this into a fairytale that somehow NATO "owes" money to washington - then citizens who do respect truth & rational discourse need to intervene to set the record straight.
> 
> i'm pleased to see that this fake news problem is being discussed at top levels in the US. One of the issues barack obama said he intends to work on after his retirement is the "balkanization of the media." He mentioned homemade video youtube channels where a single amateur talking head repeating lies has as much visual weight as a veteran CBS or bloomberg reporter.
> 
> this morning i saw a headline that Facebook itself is working on how to control the fake news that keeps spreading like wildfire through its accounts.
> 
> back to donald trump. He does need money to fund his elaborate hiring & health programs. IMHO it's helpful to discuss, in a realistic manner, where or how he will be able to find those funds. IMHO it's not helpful to name fairytale sources of magic money that do not exist, such as pretend NATO debt to washington.
> 
> .


I stand corrected, You are quite right, it was NATO he said this about. And Canada likely benefits more than anyone. Even if there is a money Trump could collect from other NATO countries for defence, it would be a small amount compared to the dollars he is talking for infrastructure etc.
There are so many avenues Trump could take but the issue is which would be palatable to other law makers, the markets and the people. What could he push through as opposed to what would he like to.
Or will it be, damn the torpedoes...


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> *Trump getting first Presidential Daily Brief today*.
> 
> Perhaps he will emerge from the meeting a changed man. The world is not simple. As Donald Rumsfeld one said ..
> 
> 
> 
> I just typed a Donald Rumsfeld quote. I feel like I need to wash my hands.


I think it's actually the most important thing Rumsfeld has every said. Most quotable, at least.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> There are fears of Trump being unstable and blowing up the world.
> 
> China has said their first conversation with Trump was "diplomatically impeccable". https://www.yahoo.com/news/chinese-media-praise-trumps-experience-ideology-100311906.html
> 
> Russia is also willing to get along with Trump. Doesn't that sound like a safer world to you? He's tough but willing to make deals. Other foreign leaders see that. Maybe not in France, but Hollande will soon be replaced.


Is he tough on Russa? Sounded to me like he was going to roll over and beg Putin to rub his belly. Can you find anything he said that was remotely tough on Russia?

The Chinese will also love him, he's cutting America's allies in the Western Pacific loose.


----------



## gibor365

Whatever you say the First lady is cute


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Obviously  Putin doesn't want war with US


More than that, he wanted a president that would let him do as he pleased in ME/Eastern Europe.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> More than that, he wanted a president that would let him do as he pleased in ME/Eastern Europe.


He wants President that won't be trying to destroy his country


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> The one thing I'm leery about with Trump is trade, I'm hoping his rhetoric on Mexico doesn't apply to Canada. I think free trade is a great thing for countries that are similar. The USA and Canada have a lot of similarities that Mexico doesn't.. for instance I don't think Canadian manufacturing will put many US workers out of business. Canadian blue-collar folks expect high wages like just in the US.


Remember the Buy America program? If Canadians think that we would be insulated from a wave of protectionism, they are kidding themselves.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Remember the Buy America program? If Canadians think that we would be insulated from a wave of protectionism, they are kidding themselves.


Not sure! Canada is considered by many as 51st State


----------



## andrewf

wraphter said:


> Considering the terrific job he did with Obamacare the anticipation is overwhelming.
> 
> He spoke so slowly at today's press conference in Greece that it looked like he fell asleep or had amnesia during the pauses.
> 
> Pretty narcissist too.


Considering ones words before they are spoken is not a character flaw. Trump could learn...


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> Trump doesn't sleep much because as a businessman and dealmaker every hour of the day is valuable. This is a guy with a terrific work ethic. No vacation, no sleep, just MAGA.


Is he a better businessman than Buffet? As a hint, the answer is no, a million times no. Buffet sleeps, and takes time to think about things.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> He wants President that won't be trying to destroy his country


Obama/Hillary weren't trying to destroy Russia. In fact, they tried to warm up to Russia early in Obama's mandate, but when Putin decided to begin annexing territory from neighbours in Georgia and then Ukraine, the relationship went south. Trump, I guess, will look at the other way if Putin wants to take small bites out of neighbouring states, or just generally destabilize/puppet them.


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Not sure! Canada is considered by many as 51st State


They didn't consider us a 51st state when it came to Buy America. Nor for softwood lumber. You should read up.


----------



## olivaw

Protestor ....


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Is he a better businessman than Buffet? As a hint, the answer is no, a million times no. Buffet sleeps, and takes time to think about things.


But could Buffett beat up Vince McMahon and shave his head? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMKFIHRpe7I


----------



## new dog

andrewf said:


> Obama/Hillary weren't trying to destroy Russia. In fact, they tried to warm up to Russia early in Obama's mandate, but when Putin decided to begin annexing territory from neighbours in Georgia and then Ukraine, the relationship went south. Trump, I guess, will look at the other way if Putin wants to take small bites out of neighbouring states, or just generally destabilize/puppet them.


Andrewf the US is no better then Russia and wants war and puppets everywhere if you haven't already noticed. Hillary was expected to continue this fine tradition and make it even worse. Better to have someone who is willing to talk to Russia and find a way forward.

I know this is RT but they are interviewing Ron Paul who would make a good secretary of state. He tells you how we should see things and I agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWrVJHtejkQ


----------



## SMK

andrewf said:


> Anyone who thinks that the Comey announcement didn't move enough votes to lose Hillary the election are living in la-la land. She won the popular vote. A few hundred thousand more in the popular vote and she would have won the electoral college. She had a 10 pt lead when Comey announced which subsequently evaporated.


Yea, many of us live in la-la-land.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/11/15/goodbye-huma-abedin-hello-keith-ellison


----------



## olivaw

Ron Paul would be a good Sec. Of state but the front runners appear to be neocon John Bolton and cranky Rudy Giuliani - both hawkish attack dogs.

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> But could Buffett beat up Vince McMahon and shave his head? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMKFIHRpe7I


^About as genuine and authentic as Trump is all the time. I never understood wrestling... is it theatre for ********? It's nothing to do with athleticism...


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> They didn't consider us a 51st state when it came to Buy America. Nor for softwood lumber. You should read up.


I've had similar conversations with my Trump supporting friends. They love Trump's protectionism but believe that it won't impact our trade with the United States. It strikes me as wishful thinking.


----------



## andrewf

SMK said:


> Yea, many of us live in la-la-land.
> 
> http://www.torontosun.com/2016/11/15/goodbye-huma-abedin-hello-keith-ellison


Bernie's opinion notwithstanding, Hillary lost ten points post-Comey. Bernie's point is that she would have been 20 points ahead and fell to only ten point ahead had she been more appealing to middle class whites.


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> I've had similar conversations with my Trump supporting friends. They love Trump's protectionism but believe that it won't impact our trade with the United States. It strikes me as wishful thinking.


Wishful thinking. It was part of Trump's brilliance, I guess. He conned enough people into thinking he said what they think he said while he was mumbling in incoherent sentence fragments (we're gonna win big league/the cyber is major/etc.). They're all going to be sorely disappointed, but they won't allow themselves to show it.


----------



## SMK

andrewf said:


> Bernie's opinion notwithstanding, Hillary lost ten points post-Comey. Bernie's point is that she would have been 20 points ahead and fell to only ten point ahead *had she been more appealing to middle class whites.*


Oh the irony that the Clinton campaign ignored Bill Clinton's advise to target the white working class. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/us/politics/hillary-clinton-campaign.html

This Clinton supporter also got why Clinton lost - incompetence-ism. http://torontolife.com/city/toronto...r-george-w-bush-speechwriter-trump-dangerous/


----------



## andrewf

Clinton was not a strong candidate. Trump was probably the only Republican candidate she could beat. Had the Democrats nominated anyone else, they would have creamed Trump. Trump has 58% disapproval rating. Unprecedented.

It's amazing that the primary system gave two horrible candidates. Had either party run anyone else, they could have won handily.


----------



## new dog

You think Cruz would have done any better.


----------



## SMK

andrewf said:


> Clinton was not a strong candidate. Trump was probably the only Republican candidate she could beat. Had the Democrats nominated anyone else, they would have creamed Trump. Trump has 58% disapproval rating. Unprecedented.
> 
> It's amazing that the primary system gave two horrible candidates. Had either party run anyone else, they could have won handily.


That I believe, though not too sure Cruz could have beaten Clinton.


----------



## gibor365

> *Obama/Hillary weren't trying to destroy Russia. In fact, they tried to warm up to Russia early in Obama's mandate*


Are you joking?! US promised to Gorbachev that if he destroys Berlin Wall, NATO won't move East one inch! and where NATO expanded in last 20-25 years?! For ages US follows politics of expansion and intervention (just watch O. Stone documentary series)... Maybe finally US will be President who focuses on internal problems


----------



## gibor365

Cuba is also unhappy with Trump 



> Whatever Trump's true beliefs, the Cuban Communist Party clearly regards him as a hostile player.
> 
> Trudeau's first day in Havana coincides with the *launch of a giant Cuban military exercise called Bastion 2016, announced the morning after Trump's surprise victory.*
> 
> Bastion exercises have been called about half a dozen times before, nearly always in moments of heightened tension with the United States, and are designed to simulate an attempted invasion of the island.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-cuba-trump-1.3850365

Good news for Canadians who travels to Cuba


----------



## lonewolf :)

andrewf said:


> Clinton was not a strong candidate. Trump was probably the only Republican candidate she could beat. Had the Democrats nominated anyone else, they would have creamed Trump. Trump has 58% disapproval rating. Unprecedented.
> 
> It's amazing that the primary system gave two horrible candidates. Had either party run anyone else, they could have won handily.


 The masses in the US loved the Clintons as Bill was President in a strong bull market that carried most stocks higher. The Clintons could be mega corrupt when the cycles were with them for being loved. Hillary represents the heydays of the bull market which made her a strong candidate even though she was one of the most corrupt ever.

Trump is very strong Alpha which was needed to beat Hillary who was a symbol of the powerful bull market. I do not think to many could have beaten Trump. Trump is not a wimp he does not give in to political correctness. Says no to carbon tax, ( wouldn't want an egotistical president that thought he had the power to cause climate change or one that was such a wimp they played along with the game) closing of boarders to radicals & knowing he will be called racist takes guts the elected in Europe were not man enough to do it. Now they are having mega problems.

I have respect for Trump he is no wimp I might not agree with everything he says though I have never agreed 100% of ideas from anyone. Including myself I have had ideas & after further thought removed that which was not true & replace it with that which is true. (which is a constant battle that takes courage, Trump has courage)


----------



## gibor365

> I have respect for Trump he is no wimp I might not agree with everything he says though I have never agreed 100% of ideas from anyone.


+1


----------



## SMK

new dog said:


> You think Cruz would have done any better.


He's apparently being considered for attorney general.


----------



## james4beach

Trump is strong alpha? This sounds like what you'd hear from a teenage boy reading The Game.

Trump is no alpha. A real man would politely and _coolly_ let others speak while he came up with something brilliant to say in an argument. The debates showed all of us that Trump is not any kind of real man -- he looks petty, weak, fragile and is easily perturbed. He's a wreck.


----------



## james4beach

olivaw said:


> Ron Paul would be a good Sec. Of state


I hope they get Ron Paul in there somewhere. He's a coherent and logical man (a doctor) and has consistently opposed war.


----------



## olivaw

In 2004, Chris Christie prosecuted and humiliated Charles Kushner. Kiushner was convicted and sent to prison. 

Jared Kushner is Charles Kushner's son. He is also Ivanka Trump's husband and a Donald Trump confidante.

On Friday, Jared Kushner engineered the ouster of Chris Christie and his staff from the Trump transition team.

The palace intrigue in Trump tower is fascinating.


----------



## sags

Marco Rubio could have beaten Trump. 

He started down the right path when he started ridiculing Trump during a debate about Trump University.

The best line in that debate was Rubio saying people paid $30,000 for a picture with a cardboard cutout of Trump.

But alas, someone gave Rubio bad advice to lay off and be a nice guy...........and they finish last.

Trump versus Trudeau in a debate.............hahaha...........Trudeau would destroy Trump and smile for selfies while doing it.


----------



## sags

Mike Rogers and Ben Carson also got the heave ho.....and Rudy Giuliani might be next.

News stories are circulating that Giuliani was paid a lot of cash by foreign countries, including Iran, Qatar, Venezuela and companies with close ties to North Korea.

He might get the AG job, but Secretary of State may be a problem.

It sounds like chaos reigns in Trump Tower.

A scorecard is needed to keep all the comings and goings straight.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...team-amid-growing-unease-from-key-republicans


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> You think Cruz would have done any better.


Cruz may be an exception because he seems to be universally reviled by everyone who knows him. But, he's not part of the establishment. I suspect a lot of Trump voters would have voted for him, as well as some Democrats that were turned off by Trump's antics.


----------



## andrewf

lonewolf :) said:


> The masses in the US loved the Clintons as Bill was President in a strong bull market that carried most stocks higher. The Clintons could be mega corrupt when the cycles were with them for being loved. Hillary represents the heydays of the bull market which made her a strong candidate even though she was one of the most corrupt ever.
> 
> Trump is very strong Alpha which was needed to beat Hillary who was a symbol of the powerful bull market. I do not think to many could have beaten Trump. Trump is not a wimp he does not give in to political correctness. Says no to carbon tax, ( wouldn't want an egotistical president that thought he had the power to cause climate change or one that was such a wimp they played along with the game) closing of boarders to radicals & knowing he will be called racist takes guts the elected in Europe were not man enough to do it. Now they are having mega problems.
> 
> I have respect for Trump he is no wimp I might not agree with everything he says though I have never agreed 100% of ideas from anyone. Including myself I have had ideas & after further thought removed that which was not true & replace it with that which is true. (which is a constant battle that takes courage, Trump has courage)


Trump lost the popular vote by 1.5%. He was very beatable.

He is not an alpha. He's a thin-skinned narcissist. Alphas don't stoop to twitter duels.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Marco Rubio could have beaten Trump.
> 
> He started down the right path when he started ridiculing Trump during a debate about Trump University.
> 
> The best line in that debate was Rubio saying people paid $30,000 for a picture with a cardboard cutout of Trump.
> 
> But alas, someone gave Rubio bad advice to lay off and be a nice guy...........and they finish last.
> 
> Trump versus Trudeau in a debate.............hahaha...........Trudeau would destroy Trump and smile for selfies while doing it.



Marc Rubio was the one I was also thinking of who almost made it and would have beaten Hillary by a land slide.


----------



## sags

The Trump team are discovering that in Washington it is hard to find an "honest crook".

Hardly anyone they appoint or whose name is circulating in the rumors, doesn't have some kind of "taint" on them.

Amazing how many of these people are being paid high fees for "consulting" with foreign nations, including some "sketchy" ones.

The same people who were complaining loudly about Bill and Hillary Clinton "fees and connections" are being exposed themselves.

General Flynn is now under scrutiny for some of his past connections as a consultant.

Everyone in Washington politics is either already working in government or consulting for big dollars. 

Trump was right.........Washington is a big swamp.

Newt Gingrich was right.......Trump will have to be very careful or he will get pulled down into it.

Lots of critters wanting to be fed in the swamp.


----------



## sags

It seems like Russia keeps popping up in a lot of these "connections".

General Flynn was paid to attend a gala in Moscow ?

Quite a few on Trump's team had some kind of connection to Russia.

It all makes people go.............hmmm.


----------



## Eclectic12

gibor365 said:


> andrewf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the Buy America program? If Canadians think that we would be insulated from a wave of protectionism, they are kidding themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure! Canada is considered by many as 51st State
Click to expand...

That's a personal level and rarely at the business level.

NAFTA was supposed to solve the softwood lumber disputes yet it has been a constant cycle of US complaints, appeals that win for Canada, new tariffs, appeals etc. That's despite a US university prof pointing out that what is alleged as a Canadian advantage is done in several US states.

The predecessor to NAFTA, the FTA was supposed to give Canadian companies access to free competition for American government procurement contracts but that was dropped.

What about US state that say they want renewable or green energy but at the same time as adding extra taxes for hydroelectric power from Quebec and Labrador?
It is not clear whether the California low carbon fuel standards passed but it included exemptions for local producers only.


Cheers


----------



## new dog

One thing I would like to say is I was born in Canada and so was my dad and of course I always heard of problems overseas in the middle east and so on.

Having said that I never knew what a jew was or what it meant in Canada. Up until this day I still can't really tell who a jew is and I don't care and never did. Even as I heard people say they hate them, I still can't see any reason what so ever to hate or dislike them. It actually bothers me because anybody I do meet who happens to say they are a jew for some reason I really like and are good people. So when I criticize someone and someone here says I am anti-semitic or whatever I have no idea what they are talking about. I am criticizing the person not the jew or catholic or whatever.

So when I say I might vote for Trump it is looked upon that I might be a racist, hate jews or whatever which is nonsense. This thread points that way for people who are Trump supporters and like me probably have no idea who or what a jew is and don't care. To them they are people like them and like everyone else. So if 10 thousand people immigrate from Israel I could care less for example.

The muslims who believe in Sharia law and such do concern me. If you ask why it is because they kill people all the time and blow up stuff everywhere. Sure not all muslims do this but they do concern me and that is where I come from and I hope it makes sense.


----------



## sags

Maybe the progressives on the left are finally figuring out why street protests are a waste of time and energy.

_“American activists are finally starting to understand that protest is broken,” wrote Micah White, an architect of Occupy Wall Street, in an email. “The people cannot attain sovereignty over their governments by collective protest in the streets. There are only two ways to achieve sovereignty in this world: Win elections or win wars. Now that street protest is not an option, we will see the Trump resistance split into these two fronts. Some will pursue the strategy of using social movements to elections while others go down the dark path of '70s guerrilla insurrection. I advocate winning elections.”_

They are talking now of organizing a left wing Tea Party, challenging Democrats in primaries and building a political power to force change.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> One thing I would like to say is I was born in Canada and so was my dad and of course I always heard of problems overseas in the middle east and so on.
> 
> Having said that I never knew what a jew was or what it meant in Canada. Up until this day I still can't really tell who a jew is and I don't care and never did. Even as I heard people say they hate them, I still can't see any reason what so ever to hate or dislike them. It actually bothers me because anybody I do meet who happens to say they are a jew for some reason I really like and are good people. So when I criticize someone and someone here says I am anti-semitic or whatever I have no idea what they are talking about. I am criticizing the person not the jew or catholic or whatever.
> 
> So when I say I might vote for Trump it is looked upon that I might be a racist, hate jews or whatever which is nonsense. This thread points that way for people who are Trump supporters and like me probably have no idea who or what a jew is and don't care. To them they are people like them and like everyone else. So if 10 thousand people immigrate from Israel I could care less for example.
> 
> The muslims who believe in Sharia law and such do concern me. If you ask why it is because they kill people all the time and blow up stuff everywhere. Sure not all muslims do this but they do concern me and that is where I come from and I hope it makes sense.


I have a similar experience. I didn't really discover antisemitism until I was 11 or 12 and started to understand what WW2 was about (I think I watched Schindler's List around that time). It seemed really bizarre to me.

In my family (Catholic), we were more likely to look askance at some of the odder Protestant denominations, like Jehovah's Witness or Mormons.


----------



## sags

_Sure *not all muslims *do this but they do concern me and that is where I come from and I hope it makes sense.
_

That is where I think you are wrong Newdog.

I think it is a very, very small number of Muslims who are Islam fanatics adhering to old religious dogma. 

They attract news and attention because of the level of their violence and their outrageous and unacceptable behavior, but they are insignificant in number and aren't an attractive element to the overwhelming majority of Muslims....who just want to practice their faith while living peacefully like everyone else.

Muslims are as patriotic as anyone else, as in the Khan family in the US, and abhor the violence and bad image radical Islamists have created.

I know a couple of Kurdish Iraqi brothers with large families. They are working hard to build their lives in Canada. They ran a small pizza business and introduced me to a young man who is a police officer in our city and a Muslim. He served in the Canadian military in the Middle East as an Military Policeman before returning to become a police officer in Canada. He risks his life every day to protect his fellow Canadians.

Pretty well all the cab drivers in our city are Muslims, and when they attend Ramadan duties the parking lot is full of taxis.

My son and grandson get their haircuts at a shop owned by a young Muslim guy and there are people of all shapes, sizes and colours visiting his shop. My wife gets her hair done by his sister in the same shop.

I think some people should just stop trying to prove all Muslims are bad because there are some which distort their religion.

I think if you gathered all the radical Muslims in the world, they wouldn't fill a decent sized concert hall.


----------



## andrewf

Protests can work, but you need critical mass. A few thousand protesters is just another Tuesday. You needs hundreds of thousands or millions to make the powerful pay attention.


----------



## SMK

new dog said:


> The muslims who believe in Sharia law and such do concern me. If you ask why it is because they kill people all the time and blow up stuff everywhere. Sure not all muslims do this but they do concern me and that is where I come from and I hope it makes sense.


There's hypocrisy and bigotry all around, but TorontoSun writer Tarek Fatah is right when he says the "white liberal class doesn't complain about Islamism." Many such liberals view Muslims as the only persecuted minority.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> I think it is a very, very small number of Muslims who are Islam fanatics adhering to old religious dogma. I think *if you gathered all the radical Muslims in the world, they wouldn't fill a decent sized concert hall.*


Wow.

How many concert halls would you need just to accommodate the friendly ISIS sympathizers? Only 60 million of them in just 11 countries.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/


----------



## lonewolf :)

sags said:


> _Sure *not all muslims *do this but they do concern me and that is where I come from and I hope it makes sense.
> _
> 
> That is where I think you are wrong Newdog.
> 
> I think it is a very, very small number of Muslims who are Islam fanatics adhering to old religious dogma.
> 
> They attract news and attention because of the level of their violence and their outrageous and unacceptable behavior, but they are insignificant in number and aren't an attractive element to the overwhelming majority of Muslims....who just want to practice their faith while living peacefully like everyone else.
> 
> Muslims are as patriotic as anyone else, as in the Khan family in the US, and abhor the violence and bad image radical Islamists have created.
> 
> I know a couple of Kurdish Iraqi brothers with large families. They are working hard to build their lives in Canada. They ran a small pizza business and introduced me to a young man who is a police officer in our city and a Muslim. He served in the Canadian military in the Middle East as an Military Policeman before returning to become a police officer in Canada. He risks his life every day to protect his fellow Canadians.
> 
> Pretty well all the cab drivers in our city are Muslims, and when they attend Ramadan duties the parking lot if full of taxis.
> 
> My son and grandson get their haircuts at a shop owned by a young Muslim guy and there are people of all shapes, sizes and colours visiting his shop. My wife gets her hair done by his sister in the same shop.
> 
> I think some people should just stop trying to prove all Muslims are bad because there are some which distort their religion.


There is a low percentage of Moslems in Canada which makes them convert to our ways for many of them. Increase that percentage as Sweden has & rapes sky rocket along with those wanting to change the laws in Sweden. This is not just happening in Sweden

Sags I kinda of thought same as you until I seen the problems in Europe on some of the you tube videos. A high percentage of Moslems come in to Europe & want Sharia law instead of European laws. 

The Quran contains @ least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with none believers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic with command to chop off heads & fingers & to kill infidel where ever they are hiding. Moslems who do not join the fight are called hypocrites & are warned Allah will send them to hell if they do not slaughter.

How many Christians are living in Moslem countries what happened to them all ?
Why are the living conditions in Moslem countries so far behind other countries is it the backward ways ?

If the above is true I think the Quran should be banned from Canada. Any such backward religion that promotes killing of none believers should be banned.

China might be on the right track when the Moslems in China try to promote their religion to convert others they ban them from that area making it a permanent none Moslem area.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> _Sure *not all muslims *do this but they do concern me and that is where I come from and I hope it makes sense.
> _
> 
> That is where I think you are wrong Newdog.
> 
> I think it is a very, very small number of Muslims who are Islam fanatics adhering to old religious dogma.
> 
> They attract news and attention because of the level of their violence and their outrageous and unacceptable behavior, but they are insignificant in number and aren't an attractive element to the overwhelming majority of Muslims....who just want to practice their faith while living peacefully like everyone else.
> 
> Muslims are as patriotic as anyone else, as in the Khan family in the US, and abhor the violence and bad image radical Islamists have created.
> 
> I know a couple of Kurdish Iraqi brothers with large families. They are working hard to build their lives in Canada. They ran a small pizza business and introduced me to a young man who is a police officer in our city and a Muslim. He served in the Canadian military in the Middle East as an Military Policeman before returning to become a police officer in Canada. He risks his life every day to protect his fellow Canadians.
> 
> Pretty well all the cab drivers in our city are Muslims, and when they attend Ramadan duties the parking lot is full of taxis.
> 
> My son and grandson get their haircuts at a shop owned by a young Muslim guy and there are people of all shapes, sizes and colours visiting his shop. My wife gets her hair done by his sister in the same shop.
> 
> I think some people should just stop trying to prove all Muslims are bad because there are some which distort their religion.
> 
> I think if you gathered all the radical Muslims in the world, they wouldn't fill a decent sized concert hall.


It is important to think of numbers when looking at the problem of Muslim immigration or any other type of immigration.

There are two separate problems 

(1) radicalization of primarily young men
(2)the size of the immigrant population relative to the native population.

Life is struggle and conflict. Life is a struggle for power ,one individual over another, one group over another group.
Goodness is an illusion. The will to power, as Nietzsche said, is what life is all about. Turning the other cheek,
love thy neighbour, in the long run aren't going to work and this approach will lead to unfortunate results.

Although a small percent of Muslim young men (and some women too, we have to include them too , but mainly men) will convert to
radicalism, a small percent of a large number is still a large number.one percent of a million is 10,000. !0,000 will put inordinate pressure on the surveillance system of the autorities. They will easily brcome overwhelmed with the volume of work and will not be able to track the potential terrorists.

As the size of the immigrant population increases ,they will elect representatives. They will gain political power . They will compete with the native, original population because their interests are not the same.In some places ,the original majority will become the minority . In California, the white,non-Hispanic population is in the minority.

Michael Moore on CNN said that around 2050 whites would become a minority in the US. He said that right now there are more non-whites in kindergarten than whites. Of course he was somewhat happy about this because he is politically correct,but maybe it is not such a good thing.To be in the minority means the majority 
can push you around. This is not so good.

A heterogeneous population can lead to great internal conflict.

Our hunter-gather ancestors were very tribal. One group would be in conflict with the other. One group of chimps will attack the territory of another group and kill off its members. They will take their territory and if it has fruit trees the females will eat the fruit and soon the winning tribe will increase in size. There are videos on youtube. We have a lot of that heritage, whether we want it or not.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> _Sure *not all muslims *do this but they do concern me and that is where I come from and I hope it makes sense.
> _
> 
> That is where I think you are wrong Newdog.
> 
> I think it is a very, very small number of Muslims who are Islam fanatics adhering to old religious dogma.


Data? You can look at polling data surveying Muslim opinion in muslim majority countries and the West. Shockingly high percentages support death for apostates, punishment for blasphemy (anti-free speech), punishment for adultery. You can start with the Pew research on the subject:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/


----------



## lonewolf :)

I have seen you tube videos where radical Moslems are telling the native Europeans the Europeans are stupid for not having more children. The Moslem men say they are going to have lots of wives & children & out number the European natives.

Martin Armstrong has done a lot of research regarding history & according to Armstrong large movements of immigrants into another country always leads to civil war.


----------



## olivaw

Re Protests. 
They are most certainly not a waste of time. 

The plan to primary the Dems existed long before the protests.


----------



## sags

A group of disgruntled employees standing around talking about how much they dislike the way they are treated isn't effective.

The same group of disgruntled employees organizing themselves into a union, with elected leaders and representatives presenting a singular voice has been proven over time.

Hence the relentless disparage of unionism by those who benefit from suppression of workers.

The protesters need to organize into a unified group, led by leaders who talk to the media and authorities with a singular voice and who direct the activities of the group in the most effective manner.

A younger Bernie Sanders type could lead such a movement.


----------



## s123

-When a study finds that nearly all stories about Muslims are negative it’s clear this is the last acceptable form of bigotry – and it’s tearing society apart

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/23/media-muslims-study

In the media, using Islam or Muslims as descriptive terms when referring to criminals remains all too common, even in cases where faith has little or nothing to do with the crime. The Times ran a front-page story in March with the provocative headline “Call for national debate on Muslim sex grooming”.
There is nothing in Islam that could justify such heinous acts, and none of those involved in this particular crime cited Islam as their motive. 


This “othering” of Muslims has also manifested itself in a growth in hate crime: a 70% rise in the past year according to the Metropolitan police. We now live in a country where most Muslims know someone who has suffered from Islamophobic hate or abuse.
Of course, the media should not be held responsible for violence against Muslims – that is the liability of the attackers. But with over 90% of reports about Muslims taking a negative angle and playing up faith, even when irrelevant, it is not reasonable to deny that the media plays a key role in the development of anti-Muslim hatred.

We are equal members of society and demand fairness, not favours. 
Avoiding daily smears, group libel and the violent consequences is not too much to ask of the nation’s editors.


----------



## sags

I can't ever remember a news headline reading....Baptist shoots people in mall, or Catholic goes on rampage.

Or ever reading a story that contained..John Smith, a fundamental Pentecostal believer was in court today for..

Unless the person committing the crime is a Muslim, the reporters don't even enquire about their religious beliefs.

Hundreds of millions of Muslims in the world, in countries where tourists often travel in relative safety all the time.......and a few thousand radicals are going to overtake and rule the world ?

Mmmmm...........I think not.


----------



## sags

A sensible person doesn't have to watch too many speeches from the leaders of ISIS, hiding in a cave or moving from place to place, appearing all solemn and discerning.........wagging their finger at the evil west, to realize they are all wannabe world leaders chock full of their own self importance and not much to show for their time on this earth.

Look at the backgrounds of ISIS leaders. They are a group of failures in life who have found their calling amidst a small group of followers.

It reminds me of a big murder trial in this area involving a biker gang. All these young men involved in brotherly bonds and loyalty pledges, and they end up shooting each other. Their luxurious reward for a life of crime was driving a tow truck part time and living in their mother's basement, and now they are guests in our Federal Penitentiary system.


----------



## wraphter

si23 said:


> There is nothing in Islam that could justify such heinous acts, and none of those involved in this particular crime cited Islam as their motive.


Not true.

It is a fact that Muslims have arranged marriages involving underaged girls. Aisha, Mohammed's favourite wife was underage. 



> The Islamic faith condones pedophilia. Therefore, contemporary pedophilic Islamic marriages are common practice around the globe.
> 
> In many Islamic countries, child marriages are common practice. Girls far below the age of puberty are often forcibly married to older persons (sometimes in their 50s and later) for various personal gains by the girls' guardian or with the intention to preserve family honor by helping her avoid pre-marital sex. Pedophilic Islamic marriages are most prevalent in Pakistan and Afghanistan, followed by other countries in the Middle East and Bangladesh.[1][2] This practice may also be prevalent to a lesser extent amongst other Muslim communities, and is on the rise among the growing Muslim populations in many non-Muslim countries, such as the United Kingdom[3] and the United States.[4]
> 
> .............
> 
> Canada
> According to an article in the Toronto Sun, Muslim child brides in Canada are on the rise:
> Federal immigration officials say there’s little they can do to stop “child brides” from being sponsored into Canada by much older husbands who wed them in arranged marriages abroad.
> Top immigration officials in Canada and Pakistan say all they can do is reject the sponsorships of husbands trying to bring their child-brides to Canada. The men have to reapply when the bride turns 16. The marriages are permitted under Sharia Law.
> Muslim men, who are Canadian citizens or permanent residents return to their homeland to wed a “child bride” in an arranged marriage in which a dowry is given to the girl’s parents. Officials said some of the brides can be 14 years old or younger and are “forced” to marry. The practice occurs in a host of countries including: Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Lebanon.
> 
> Canadian visa officer Steve Bulmer said in classified documents he refused to allow one Pakistani man to sponsor his 15-year-old bride in August 2009.
> “I can find no section (of law) that states the marriage is ‘invalid’ or ‘void,” Bulmer wrote in e-mails obtained by lawyer Richard Kurland under Access of Information. “I am afraid the age does not invalidate the marriage even if it is illegal to marry.”
> Abdul Hameed, of the Canadian embassy in Islamabad, said child marriages are not valid in Canada
> 
> Permitted in the Qur'an[edit]
> Main Article: Pedophilia in the Qur'an
> *Muslims justify pedophilic marriages with tender aged girls using verses from the Qur'an, that clearly advocates this abominable practice. The Qur'an cannot be questioned by Muslims since it's not simply considered to be 'inspired' but the very words of Allah, uttered by his final messenger Muhammad. In Islam, moral relativism cannot be applied, as the Qur'an is Allah's eternal message to mankind and is as relevant today as it were when the revelations first escaped Muhammad lips.*
> 
> ..........
> 
> It is incorrect to say that it's not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger. A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she's too young are wrong and they are being unfair to her.
> 
> We hear a lot in the media about the marriage of underage girls. We should know that Shariah law has not brought injustice to women.[24]
> Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh
> .............
> 
> Our mothers and before them our grandmothers married when they were barely 12. Good upbringing makes a girl ready to perform all marital duties at that age.[25]
> Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh
> 
> ............
> A nine-year-old girl has the same sexual capacities like a woman of twenty and over.[26]
> Skeikh Mohamed Ibn Abderrahmane Al-Maghraoui


----------



## sags

I feel sorry for disillusioned youth who joined ISIS believing they would be fighting for a just cause and soon found out they were nothing but a sad sack group of criminals, who enforced continued loyalty under the threat of death. 

Many "recruits" wanted to leave as soon as they were separated into groups upon arrival...you will be fighter, you two will be suicide bombers, you will be working in government...but ISIS executed some to show them it was a one way door they had gone through.

If ISIS ideology is so popular, they wouldn't have to force recruits to stay under threats of execution.


----------



## wraphter

Britain's Underage Muslim Marriage Epidemic



> "Forced marriage is probably the last form of slavery in the UK." — Nazir Afzal, Chief Crown Prosecutor for Northwest England.
> 
> More than a dozen Muslim clerics at some of the biggest mosques in Britain have been caught on camera agreeing to marry off girls as young as 14.
> 
> Undercover reporters filming a documentary about the prevalence of forced and underage marriage in Britain for the television program ITV Exposure secretly recorded 18 Muslim imams agreeing to perform an Islamic marriage, known as a nikah, between a 14-year-old girl and an older man.
> 
> Campaigners against forced marriage -- which is not yet a crime in Britain -- say thousands of underage girls -- including some under the age of five -- are being forced to marry against their will in Muslim nikahs every year, and that the examples exposed by the documentary represent just "the tip of the iceberg."
> 
> The documentary, entitled "Forced to Marry," was first broadcast on October 9 and involves two reporters posing as the mother and brother of a 14-year-old girl to be married to an older man. The reporters contacted 56 mosques across Britain and asked clerics to perform a nikah. The imams were specifically told that the "bride" did not consent to the marriage to an older man from London.
> 
> Although the legal age for marriage in Britain is 16, according to Islamic Sharia law girls can marry once they reach puberty. The imams who agreed to marry the girl openly mocked the legitimacy of British law, reflecting the rise of a parallel Islamic legal system in Britain.
> 
> One of the Muslim clerics who agreed to perform the underage marriage is Mohammed Shahid Akhtar, the imam of the Central Jamia Masjid Ghamkol Sharif Mosque in Birmingham, the second-largest mosque in Britain with a capacity of more than 5,000 worshippers.
> 
> *On being informed that the girl did not want to get married, Akhtar replied: "She's 14. By Sharia, grace of God, she's legal to get married. Obviously Islam has made it easy for us. There is nothing against that. We're doing it because it's okay through Islam."*


----------



## olivaw

The last gasp of ISIS in Iraq? - *Special Report: Under siege in Mosul, Islamic State turns to executions and paranoia*



> The Kurds believe that the military assault on Mosul, which began on October 17, is fueling Islamic State's sense of fear and mistrust. In the short term, they said, the group's obsession with rooting out anyone who might betray it may help rally fighters to defend Mosul. But the obsession also means the group has turned inwards right as it faces the most serious threat to its existence in Iraq since seizing around a third of the country's territory in the summer of 2014.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> A sensible person doesn't have to watch too many speeches from the leaders of ISIS, hiding in a cave or moving from place to place, appearing all solemn and discerning.........wagging their finger at the evil west, to realize they are all wannabe world leaders chock full of their own self importance and not much to show for their time on this earth.
> 
> Look at the backgrounds of ISIS leaders. They are a group of failures in life who have found their calling amidst a small group of followers.
> 
> It reminds me of a big murder trial in this area involving a biker gang. All these young men involved in brotherly bonds and loyalty pledges, and they end up shooting each other. Their luxurious reward for a life of crime was driving a tow truck part time and living in their mother's basement, and now they are guests in our Federal Penitentiary system.


ISIS? That is not the topic under discussion. What about the sexual abuse by older Muslim men of young girls in Rotherham,England?
Are you telling be Islamic culture and traditions and what is written in the Koran are incidental?
It was political correctness that allowed this group sexual abuse to happen. The police looked the other way. 

The problem isn't over there. It is over here.

wake up.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> The last gasp of ISIS in Iraq? - *Special Report: Under siege in Mosul, Islamic State turns to executions and paranoia*


Mosul?

What about Rotherham?

Talk about politically correct avoidance.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I can't ever remember a news headline reading....Baptist shoots people in mall, or Catholic goes on rampage.
> 
> Or ever reading a story that contained..John Smith, a fundamental Pentecostal believer was in court today for..
> 
> Unless the person committing the crime is a Muslim, the reporters don't even enquire about their religious beliefs.


Good point. Say with the series of school and campus shootings in the US. Not religiously motivated of course, but we don't hear the religious background cited in the news reports.

And how about the evangelical Christian (Robert Dear) who attacked Planned Parenthood a year ago? That one was a terrorist attack, motivated by extreme religious ideology.

The terrorist Breivik who killed 77 people in Norway believed that white/European/Christian societies should be kept pure "European". This was one white supremacist terrorism.

Go to the Hot Button discussion forum and you'll see that I've posted many stories on white terrorists who have carried out attacks. The reason I keep posting those is that I'm tired of highly skewed media reporting that tries to paint Muslims as the only radicals. Even Canada has seen radical attacks from white people, like the shooting spree that terrorized Moncton.


----------



## s123

james4beach said:


> humble_pie, yes I've heard that too! Trump has previously bragged about how he does not sleep much. Here's an article discussing a hypothesis that Trump is chronically sleep deprived. This could explain all kinds of odd behaviours.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-sleep_us_574606cde4b055bb11710fcf
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-bulkeley-phd/donald-trump-the-sleep-de_b_9413588.html
> 
> Good health, and good sleep, are key for decision-makers. With enough sleep deprivation you also get paranoia and emotional instability.


I'm totally agree with you.
The sleep is a big part of the health.
Improve and Protect the Melatonin Production is a good approach.
Continuous lack of sleep needs look after.

I do this to make relax when I'm not able to fallen a sleep.
Press & gentle massage 1~2 min. with calm breathing behind the earlobes area. (feel hard - around GB12)
http://debbieleetcm.netfirms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/GB-8.png

I had some trouble with my sleep on 3 ~ 4 years ago. 
So I took a 3mg melatonin supplement per night for a week or so.
I think my melatonin level was a very low at that time. (not sure)
I didn't have any side effects or any dizziness on the next morning during the week.

But I've read somewhere just need take a small amount like 0.2mg on later time. 
I'm rarely take a melatonin now but I'll taking a small piece of 3mg to make a good sleep if it's the necessary the situation of the next day's activity. 

-How to Improve and Protect Your Melatonin Production：
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/10/10/melatonin.aspx

- Are melatonin supplements safe?
http://www.livescience.com/42066-melatonin-supplement-facts.html
People who have trouble sleeping typically have low levels of melatonin, so melatonin supplements seem like a logical fix for insomnia. There is a high demand for sleep aids, especially in the U.S. The National Health Interview Survey done in 2002, and again in 2007, found 1.6 million US adults were using complementary and alternative sleep aids for insomnia. Melatonin was a top choice.

Melatonin is likely safe for most people when taken for a short-term, studies show. However melatonin may cause side effects including headache, daytime sleepiness, short-lived depression symptoms, stomach cramps, dizziness and irritability.


----------



## gibor365

> Quite a few on Trump's team had some kind of connection to Russia.


 and his wife is from former Yugoslavia and her father was communist


----------



## wraphter

gibor365 said:


> and his wife is from former Yugoslavia and her father was communist


So Trump talks to Putin and the next day Putin bombs Aleppo---you knowthe hospitals, the children. They go after these targets deliberately.
Very nice Mr. Putin apologist.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Protests can work, but you need critical mass. A few thousand protesters is just another Tuesday. You needs hundreds of thousands or millions to make the powerful pay attention.


Bernie Sanders makes a good argument on what people should really do, to organize and take action going forward:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf_XrfpdOsM

I understand the protesters' cause, but I think more organized political activity is required


----------



## gibor365

wraphter said:


> So Trump talks to Putin and the next day Putin bombs Aleppo---you knowthe hospitals, the children. They go after these targets deliberately.
> Very nice Mr. Putin apologist.


Looks like Putin and Trump on the same page regarding Syria! Excellent! 



> TASS/ZUMA Press
> Russia resumed airstrikes in Syria on Tuesday in a major new effort to break resistance in rebel-held areas of Aleppo.
> 
> "Today we started a large-scale operation to deliver massive fire on the positions of the Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra in the provinces of Idlib and Homs," Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said on Tuesday





> Shoigu said on Tuesday that Putin and Trump discussed the war in Syria and the possibility of "uniting efforts in the fight with the common enemy number one—international terrorism and extremism."


----------



## Eclectic12

james4beach said:


> sags said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't ever remember a news headline reading....Baptist shoots people in mall, or Catholic goes on rampage.
> 
> Or ever reading a story that contained..John Smith, a fundamental Pentecostal believer was in court today for..
> 
> Unless the person committing the crime is a Muslim, the reporters don't even enquire about their religious beliefs ...
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. Say with the series of school and campus shootings in the US. Not religiously motivated of course, but we don't hear the religious background cited in the news reports ...
Click to expand...

Not exact matches ... but there seems to be some inquiry.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/28/scott-roeder-abortion-doctor-killer
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-teen-barbershop-shooting-12-years-ago.html


Cheers


*PS*

I seem to recall several reports of the attacks on abortionists listing the background early in the report.


----------



## andrewf

s123 said:


> The Times ran a front-page story in March with the provocative headline “Call for national debate on Muslim sex grooming”.
> There is nothing in Islam that could justify such heinous acts, and none of those involved in this particular crime cited Islam as their motive.


I think this assertion could be open to debate. How old was Mohammad's wife Aisha when they married?

If the ideology itself was not directly a factor, politically correct authorities, afraid of being called racist, turned a blind eye to the abuse. It spanned years and was very well known to the public.


----------



## olivaw

Re protests:

The conversation has evolved. Initially the protestors were dismissed as a rabble of sore losers and ne'er do wells. 

Now, skeptics admit that protests can become meaningful if a formal leadership structure emerges (or an existing group hijacks the protests). 

Progress - I guess.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> It is important to think of numbers when looking at the problem of Muslim immigration or any other type of immigration.
> 
> There are two separate problems
> 
> (1) radicalization of primarily young men
> (2)the size of the immigrant population relative to the native population.
> 
> Life is struggle and conflict. Life is a struggle for power ,one individual over another, one group over another group.
> Goodness is an illusion. The will to power, as Nietzsche said, is what life is all about. Turning the other cheek,
> love thy neighbour, in the long run aren't going to work and this approach will lead to unfortunate results.
> 
> Although a small percent of Muslim young men (and some women too, we have to include them too , but mainly men) will convert to
> radicalism, a small percent of a large number is still a large number.one percent of a million is 10,000. !0,000 will put inordinate pressure on the surveillance system of the autorities. They will easily brcome overwhelmed with the volume of work and will not be able to track the potential terrorists.
> 
> As the size of the immigrant population increases ,they will elect representatives. They will gain political power . They will compete with the native, original population because their interests are not the same.In some places ,the original majority will become the minority . In California, the white,non-Hispanic population is in the minority.
> 
> Michael Moore on CNN said that around 2050 whites would become a minority in the US. He said that right now there are more non-whites in kindergarten than whites. Of course he was somewhat happy about this because he is politically correct,but maybe it is not such a good thing.To be in the minority means the majority
> can push you around. This is not so good.
> 
> A heterogeneous population can lead to great internal conflict.
> 
> Our hunter-gather ancestors were very tribal. One group would be in conflict with the other. One group of chimps will attack the territory of another group and kill off its members. They will take their territory and if it has fruit trees the females will eat the fruit and soon the winning tribe will increase in size. There are videos on youtube. We have a lot of that heritage, whether we want it or not.




isn't wraphter fantasy wonderful?

here we are in a protest-Trump thread & somehow the rafters manages to drift all the way from muslim immigration to the german philosopher Nietzsche to the impregnation of chimpanzees by fruit trees


----------



## wraphter

s123 quoting Guardian said:


> In the media, using Islam or Muslims as descriptive terms when referring to criminals remains all too common, even in cases where faith has little or nothing to do with the crime. The Times ran a front-page story in March with the provocative headline “Call for national debate on Muslim sex grooming”.
> There is nothing in Islam that could justify such heinous acts, and none of those involved in this particular crime cited Islam as their motive.


So the author of this article in the Guardian takes exception to referring to the perpetrators as Muslims. I pointed out that Islam permits arranged marriages to under-age girls. The author of this article is  Miqdaad Versi . He is assistant secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain. So perhaps one can question the objectivity of his opinion.

When crimes are committed there is frequently reference to their race. From the Toronto Star 



> One suspect is described as a *white male*, 26 to 27 years old with a slim build, in a black shirt and black pants. The second is described as a* black male*, 26 to 27 years old, with a full beard, large, “built like a football player,” also in a black shirt and black pants.


It seems important to note the suspects race or ethnic background.

Obama was incapable of designating the terrorists as Muslim.


----------



## Spudd

wraphter said:


> It seems important to note the suspects race or ethnic background.
> 
> Obama was incapable of designating the terrorists as Muslim.


Race or ethnic background in this context is a description of a suspect. Muslim is a religion, it does not describe a suspect unless worded something like "wearing Muslim Taqiya (hat)". They might choose "middle Eastern" or "Arab" to describe the race of the suspect; his religion is irrelevant unless it was a religiously motivated crime. Whites can also be Muslim; for example, the guy they arrested in Strathroy for planning a terror attack. If he had been described in the paper as a Muslim who was wanted by police, I don't think it would have helped to track him down. 

Secondly, I'm just being pedantic here, but he was fully capable of describing (not designating) the terrorists as Muslim. He simply chose not to. He explains his reasons here:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/politics/obama-radical-islamic-terrorism-cnn-town-hall/


----------



## wraphter

Spudd said:


> Race or ethnic background in this context is a description of a suspect. Muslim is a religion, it does not describe a suspect unless worded something like "wearing Muslim Taqiya (hat)". They might choose "middle Eastern" or "Arab" to describe the race of the suspect; his religion is irrelevant unless it was a religiously motivated crime. Whites can also be Muslim; for example, the guy they arrested in Strathroy for planning a terror attack. If he had been described in the paper as a Muslim who was wanted by police, I don't think it would have helped to track him down.
> 
> Secondly, I'm just being pedantic here, but he was fully capable of describing (not designating) the terrorists as Muslim. He simply chose not to. He explains his reasons here:
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/politics/obama-radical-islamic-terrorism-cnn-town-hall/


Islam is a religion. A religion is a set of beliefs. It is also a social group whose members have loyalty to each other.

The Muslim religion *does *permit pedophilic marriages to young girls and therefore sex with underage girls.. There is also 
the concept of dar-al- harb, the house of war. England is a non-Muslim country; it is 'the house of war and certain things are permitted that are not permitted in dar-al-islam,the house of peace. Some Muslims feel they are at war with Western nations and in war they are permitted to take any women they want as sex slaves. This is what they did in Rotherham. Their religion allowed it. This is what ISIS does with Yazidi girls.


A religion does not exist in heaven. It exists as real humans in the world who belong to a specific social group which
is distinct from other groups. The terms white and black also refer to different social groups. It is appropriate to identify 
the group the criminals come from.

Obama was the best friend the terrorists will ever have. His actions led to the birth of ISIS. He did not go to Paris for the Charlie Hebdo funeral. By not naming clearly the perpetrators, Obama was putting his finger on the scale. 
Obama was a terrorist enabler.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> isn't wraphter fantasy wonderful?
> 
> here we are in a protest-Trump thread & somehow the rafters manages to drift all the way from muslim immigration to the german philosopher Nietzsche to the impregnation of chimpanzees by fruit trees


The post to which you replied meandered towards the notion that the races should not mix. 

It's exactly what the protestors are trying to combat, IMO.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> I think this assertion could be open to debate. How old was Mohammad's wife Aisha when they married?
> 
> If the ideology itself was not directly a factor, politically correct authorities, afraid of being called racist, turned a blind eye to the abuse. It spanned years and was very well known to the public.


She was five when they "married" and nine when Mohammed raped her. Mohammed routinely engaged in the enslavement and rape of women captured while attacking caravans and settlements. There is also the matter of institutionalalised polygamy in Islam. And the fact that non-Muslim girls were targeted while Muslim ones in their own families were covered over as per the tenets. And that it wasn't a single incident but several unconnected Muslim gangs across the country in places like Derby, Rochdale and Rotherham.


----------



## james4beach

Gosh mordko, then I bet you're really scandalized about Utah. Child marriage is common within certain Christian sects.

Do you feel the same way towards Mormons (and other offbeat Christian groups) as you do towards Muslims?


----------



## andrewf

^I think the obvious answer would be yes. 

James, you can't throw that in the face of an atheist. All religions are awful, but some are more awful than others.


----------



## james4beach

lol that's true. I'm not a huge fan of any of these religions. So much wasted time, energy and brain power


----------



## mordko

james4beach said:


> Gosh mordko, then I bet you're really scandalized about Utah. Child marriage is common within certain Christian sects.
> 
> Do you feel the same way towards Mormons (and other offbeat Christian groups) as you do towards Muslims?


Mormons don't practice polygamy these days except perhaps a few oddballs.

The issue in the UK wasn't polygamy, although the tradition may have contributed to justifying the crimes. It was targeting, grooming and raping of vulnerable under-aged non-Muslim girls by different Muslim gangs across the country from Preston to Derby. Thousands of girls were raped and the perpetrators felt fully justified and declared no guilt whatsoever.


----------



## mordko

> Child marriage is common within certain Christian sects.


Which ones? And yes, I would certainly disapprove, to put it mildly, albeit it's not quite the same as mass gangrapes.


----------



## olivaw

Back to the protests and opposition to the Trump presidency to come ....

Fox news anchor Megan Kelly opened up to Anderson Cooper of CNN about her terrible year at the hands of the Trump campaign. 








> And as she recounted all the abuse she got in the aftermath of that debate, one piece in particular stuck out. Trump advisor Michael Cohen retweeted a threatening remark aimed at her and Fox News executive Bill Shine stepped in to tell him to knock it off.


----------



## james4beach

mordko said:


> Which ones? And yes, I would certainly disapprove, to put it mildly, albeit it's not quite the same as mass gangrapes.


There are some Christians with polygamy, but reading a few sources, they all seem to be Mormons. This includes the child abuse and underage marriage incident in Bountiful, British Columbia a few years ago


----------



## james4beach

Just as I feared, the rhetoric from Trump's campaign is already spurring hate crimes in Canada and inspiring white nationalists / neo-nazis in Canada.

Trump accused of giving 'a shot of adrenalin' to Canadian racists

The former head of the Canadian Jewish Congress has received 8 or 9 death threats since the election. Additionally, a swastika has been painted on the home of a woman who runs a Jewish prayer center.



> "I think what has happened at this point, sad to say, is that Trump has given permission for the racists ... who have been hiding in garbage cans, to pop their heads up and say 'look, wow, fresh air here, time to get busy,'" said Bernie Farber, executive director of the Mosaic Institute and former head of the Canadian Jewish Congress.
> 
> "So it's not new, it's just a shot of adrenalin for them."


----------



## mordko

^ we have to be a bit careful linking this to Trump. Such incidents took place before him.

However the turn to antisemitism among alt right supporters in the US is clearly linked to Trumps campaign and there is statistical evidence for the link.


----------



## new dog

I think it is stupid protesters in the states making crazy baseless accusations that is making these nut cases come to the surface. Liberals and Dems are the ones wanting a war in the streets and this is like a call to arms for these nut jobs to raise their heads and come to the surface. Trump told his supporters to stop it and he doesn't condone these actions in any way or form. On the other hand Dem leaders are encouraging the media and protesters to throw out any and all baseless accusations they wish and protest across America.


----------



## like_to_retire

new dog said:


> On the other hand Dem leaders are encouraging the media and protesters to throw out any and all baseless accusations they wish and protest across America.


Somewhat ironic since the democrates and media were so clearly outraged by Trumps comments in the debate with regard to his reluctance to accept the outcome of the election if he lost. The left was horrified by his comments, that this flew in the face of the very cornerstone of democracy. And when he won, look what's happening, exactly what they were carping about. Petitions to pay off the electoral college. Sheesh.

ltr


----------



## lonewolf :)

Many schools in the US are encouraging civil unrest & allowing kids to skip classes a source told the New York Post. About 200 kids from Beacon high school in Manhaten joined other students to protest @ Trump Towers & schools are encouraging them to skip classes & join the protests. This is taking place around the country. LA estimated 4000 kids skipped school to join the protests

These kids are not even old enough to vote. The teachers should be fired for causing civil unrest & promoting their own political views while being paid by the tax payer.


----------



## olivaw

It was the Trump campaign that brought white nationalism into the mainstream. The protestors refuse to remain silent about it.


----------



## lonewolf :)

Maybe there should be photo registration for protests with a fee charged to cover the damages. Protests that get out of control cost money to the victims of the protests. Put money put up front to cover the costs of the damage. No damage done protesters get their money back or perhaps a percentage goes for cost of policing & or cover damage from other protests that have caused more damage then the fees could cover.

Anyone that opens up a business has to register & pay a fee. Yet protesters do not add to the economy the way a business does do not have to register or pay a fee & often cause a lot of destruction. I think they got this one backwards.


----------



## gibor365

james4beach said:


> Just as I feared, the rhetoric from Trump's campaign is already spurring hate crimes in Canada and inspiring white nationalists / neo-nazis in Canada.
> 
> Trump accused of giving 'a shot of adrenalin' to Canadian racists
> 
> The former head of the Canadian Jewish Congress has received 8 or 9 death threats since the election. Additionally, a swastika has been painted on the home of a woman who runs a Jewish prayer center.


Antisemitism is Canada always existed... and this is insane to blame Trupm for antisemitic actions in Canada.


----------



## james4beach

I realize it always existed and has been a persistent problem. I'm saying that it might get worse now that neo-nazis and white supremacists have been legitimized in the USA.

The same people who go after the muslims will also come after jews.


----------



## new dog

So having Hillary there and increasing the amount of muslims to the point of huge increases in sexual assault, rape and murder is somehow going to make it safer for jews. Not to mention these people I don't think are big fans of jews. Then to make matters worse a real right wing racist will get elected because of the problems I just mentioned and jews will be even worse off then ever before. If you swing the pendulum to far to the left you end up on the extreme right.


----------



## m3s

> Post-truth politics is a political culture in which debate is framed largely by appeals to emotion disconnected from the details of policy, and by the repeated assertion of talking points to which factual rebuttals are ignored. Post-truth differs from traditional contesting and falsifying of truth by rendering it of "secondary" importance. Political commentators have identified post-truth politics as ascendant in American, Australian, British, Indian and Turkish politics, as well as in other areas of debate, driven by a combination of the 24-hour news cycle, false balance in news reporting, and the increasing ubiquity of social media.


Here we have it folks.. post truth politics. Facts are now irrelevant when everyone is emotionally convinced of something they learned from biased news or social media. Pick your poison.


----------



## gibor365

> The same people who go after the muslims will also come after jews.


 I just know that for decades and now muslims are coming for Jews.

When I lived in USSR I had big arguments with "pamjat'" guys, Russian antisemitic and nationalist organization.... but it was only talks... no violence, they (unlike muslims) didn't try to perform terror attacks against us


----------



## lonewolf :)

I do not get it.

Letting Moslem into Europe has help to make Europe a mess with rapes, murders destruction of property, making people live in fear. Why would anyone want to have the same problem here ? Think about how stupid it is, I see nothing positive only negative.

Look @ their countries their way of life just does produce the standard of living we have, as well as the love & happiness. Bring in a bunch of immigrants & their backwards ways of killing those that don't have same beliefs. Then they want to enforce stupid laws. This would lower our standard of living if we even live.


Faith: the blind acceptance of ideas without any sensory evidence.
It is total BS that when a person or group of people have some stupid ideas not based on reason/logic making them a danger to others or destroy those around them can hide under religion.

Moslems wants to come to North America based on faith (blind acceptance of ideas without any sensory evidence) thinking they should dominate the world & kill none believers. Hide under religion & the bleeding hearts want to let them in.

If a group of people had the idea they wanted to take us over & enforce totally stupid laws kill those that were none believers in their BS we probably would not let them into the country. But because it is a religion the bleeding hearts want to let them in.

They need to fix their problems themselves not bring them here. people have worked hard building infrastructure rules & laws that govern us.

There is no free lunch. Why do we want to make them dependent on us giving free handouts to refugees that come here. Where I live 70,000 was raised for a Moslem family. Did they say they will pay the money back when they start working. The answer is no.

Anyone coming into a country should be able to support themselves. European countries is (maybe was now) giving free benefits to Moslems entering yet they still want to dominate Europe with their laws. 

Obama praises Merkel for the job she has done. Hillary wanted to be like Merkel. Trump does not want this BS to happen in the US & they call him a racist? With protests in the streets, even with low life teachers encouraging students that are to young to vote to skip school cause civil unrest & protest Trump. The mob is dumber then the dumbest person in it.


----------



## gibor365

> I do not get it.


 Me too!
Agree 100% with lonewolf


----------



## olivaw

President Obama is good with protestors. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/obama-to-trump-protesters-231558



> Trump and his allies have lashed out at the protesters that have surged across the nation, accusing them of being paid demonstrators ginned up by the media.
> 
> But Obama said on Thursday that the principle of free speech is a core tenet that must be respected.
> 
> “I can say across Europe that many principles that have been taken for granted here around free speech and around civil liberties and an independent judiciary and fighting corruption — those are principles that, you know, not perfectly but generally we have tried to apply not just in our own country but also with respect to our foreign policy,” Obama said.


----------



## new dog

The Dems constantly attack free speech and want to shut down or curtail websites like zero hedge because they don't like their message. CNN is very biased and no better then many alt websites so if you shut them down then you should shut CNN down as well.


----------



## olivaw

Which Dems attack free speech? 

President Obama supported the protestor's right to free speech. 

The American first amendment gives sites like zero hedge the right to publish fake news and Russian propaganda. The hope is that people will be sensible enough to recognize fake news and propaganda when they see it.


----------



## james4beach

No kidding. Some of these alt right sites (like ZeroHedge) publish outright Russian/Putin propaganda. I used to read ZH until it turned insane... it's one of the most anti-American web sites I've ever seen.

The correct way to read ZH by the way is to ignore all political articles and find the occasional financial articles that still exist.

ZH runs stories which practically call for the overthrow of US government, almost like a call-to-arms to fight the central government. And the USA allows that.


----------



## new dog

Exactly just like CNN. Olivaw some Dems are calling on google and Facebook to not allow advertising on sites like zero hedge. And of course Obama supports the protestors rights because they are for the Dem cause.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Exactly just like CNN. Olivaw some Dems are calling on google and Facebook to not allow advertising on sites like zero hedge. And of course Obama supports the protestors rights because they are for the Dem cause.


Google and FB are private companies. They chose not to deal with sites that peddle fake news. it does no surprise me that they deemed zerohedge to be such a company. As James said, it's anti-Americanism and Putin propaganda.

CNN appears to have passed their test for honesty and objectivity.


----------



## new dog

Wow so you really are brainwashed like many on the left. I don't trust zero hedge or CNN because I have my own mind but clearly you don't. They really can sell the left types just about anything.


----------



## mordko

Being brainwashed is still preferable to having nothing to wash in the first place.


----------



## SMK

new dog said:


> And of course Obama supports the protestors rights because they are for the Dem cause.


After imploring his voters to do same for Hillary as they did for him, his oratorical skills are taking a break.


----------



## new dog

mordko said:


> Being brainwashed is still preferable to having nothing to wash in the first place.



Thats true, I feel for you mordko.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Wow so you really are brainwashed like many on the left. I don't trust zero hedge or CNN because I have my own mind but clearly you don't. They really can sell the left types just about anything.


I've long suspected that your "facts" don't come from anywhere other than your imagination.


----------



## james4beach

I think that a lot of people are just being taken for a ride by Trump & friends. From day day one, I knew that Trump was a con man. That's his business history too.

Those alt-right-wingers (like Breitbart) _manipulated_ the population into bringing them into power, by feeding them appealing nonsense about corrupt media, the black president not really being American, and a bunch of other stuff that appeals to a down-and-out voter base.

Now that Trump & friends are in power, they're going to be as corrupt as any other administration. Already they have a hedge fund billionaire (Paulson) advising and shaping policy that directly helps his speculative investments in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

What I'll be curious to see is how those radical *********** guys react to their man Trump turning their back on them. They are dangerous people, and he's flirted with them and is about to disappoint them.


----------



## new dog

Here is European Union telling british press not to report when Terrorists are muslims.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tish-press-NOT-reveal-terrorists-Muslims.html


----------



## olivaw

james4beach said:


> What I'll be curious to see is how those radical *********** guys react to their man Trump turning their back on them. They are dangerous people, and he's flirted with them and is about to disappoint them.


The *********** guys appear to be pleased with the elevation of Steve Bannon and Jeff Sessions. I'm not sure what to make of it.


----------



## sags

I am sure you have seen and listened to some of those "*********** guys".

Not the sharpest knives in the drawer........the light is on but nobody is home........if they had a brain between them..........types of guys.


----------



## wraphter

The liberals have vilified Steve Bannon as a symbol of what they hate-racism ,bigotry antisemitism ,and ***********.
But the truth is they don't know what they are talking about and need to find a scapegoat to blame because they lost the election.
It's interesting that they never actually quote what he said. They have created a bogey man .They live in a hermetically sealed 
mental bubble impervious to contradiction. 

Here is a an interview with Steve Bannon.



> *"I'm not a white nationalist, I'm a nationalist. I'm an economic nationalist," *
> 
> Now Bannon is arguably the most powerful person on the new White House team, embodying more than anyone the liberals' awful existential pain and fury: How did someone so wrong — not just wrong, but inappropriate, unfit and "loathsome," according to The New York Times — get it so spot-on right?
> 
> In these dark days for Democrats, Bannon has become the blackest hole.
> 
> .........
> 
> This defines the parallel realities in which liberals, in their view of themselves, represent a morally superior character and Bannon — immortalized on Twitter as a white nationalist, racist, anti-Semite thug — the ultimate depravity of Trumpism.
> 
> ...........
> 
> A working class kid, he enlists in the navy after high school, gets a degree from Virginia Tech, then Georgetown, then Harvard Business School. Then it's Goldman Sachs, then he's a dealmaker and entrepreneur in Hollywood — where, in an unlikely and very lucky deal match-up, he gets a lucrative piece of Seinfeld royalties, ensuring his own small fortune —
> 
> ..............
> 
> The Democratic Party betrayed its working-man roots, just as Hillary Clinton betrayed the longtime Clinton connection — Bill Clinton's connection — to the working man. "The Clinton strength," he says, "was to play to people without a college education. High school people. That's how you win elections." And, likewise, the Republican party would come to betray its working-man constituency forged under Reagan. In sum, the working man was betrayed by the establishment, or what he dismisses as the "donor class."
> 
> To say that he sees this donor class — which in his telling is also "ascendant America," e.g. the elites, as well as "the metrosexual bubble" that encompasses cosmopolitan sensibilities to be found as far and wide as Shanghai, London's Chelsea, Hollywood and the Upper West Side — as a world apart, is an understatement. In his view, there's hardly a connection between this world and its opposite — fly-over America, left-behind America, downwardly mobile America — hardly a common language. This is partly why he regards the liberal characterization of himself as socially vile, as the politically incorrect devil incarnate, as laughable — and why he is stoutly unapologetic. They — liberals and media — don't understand what he is saying, or why, or to whom.
> 
> ..................
> 
> *He absolutely — mockingly — rejects the idea that this is a racial line. "I'm not a white nationalist, I'm a nationalist. I'm an economic nationalist," he tells me. "The globalists gutted the American working class and created a middle class in Asia. The issue now is about Americans looking to not get f—ed over. If we deliver" — by "we" he means the Trump White House — "we'll get 60 percent of the white vote, and 40 percent of the black and Hispanic vote and we'll govern for 50 years. That's what the Democrats missed. They were talking to these people with companies with a $9 billion market cap employing nine people. It's not reality. They lost sight of what the world is about."
> 
> ....
> "The media bubble is the ultimate symbol of what's wrong with this country," he continues. "It's just a circle of people talking to themselves who have no f—ing idea what's going on. If The New York Times didn't exist, CNN and MSNBC would be a test pattern. The Huffington Post and everything else is predicated on The New York Times. It's a closed circle of information from which Hillary Clinton got all her information — and her confidence. That was our opening."
> 
> ..........
> 
> While Clinton was largely absent from the campaign trail and concentrating on courting her donors, Trump — even after the leak of the grab-them-by-the-***** audio — was speaking to ever-growing crowds of 35,000 or 40,000. "
> 
> .........
> 
> He shows up 3.5 hours late in Michigan at 1 in the morning and has 35,000 people waiting in the cold. When they got [Clinton] off the donor circuit she went to Temple University and they drew 300 or 400 kids."
> 
> *


*

Labelling Bannon a racist and *********** advocate is a red herring. The Trump victory was not based on race,it was based on class. Trump
got the votes of the white working class ,those without a college education who had been forgotten by the elites in both the Democratic
and Republican parties. Conditions for these people are bad --unemployment,decrease in longevity due to suicide,
opioid addiction and obesity.

Trump won the election even though Hillary spent 10 times more than him by appealing to working class whites in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. They were voters that should have gone to Hillary.*


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> I am sure you have seen and listened to some of those "*********** guys".
> 
> Not the sharpest knives in the drawer........the light is on but nobody is home........if they had a brain between them..........types of guys.


groupthink

sad.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> I am sure you have seen and listened to some of those "*********** guys".
> 
> Not the sharpest knives in the drawer........the light is on but nobody is home........if they had a brain between them..........types of guys.


They are definitely something else. You want chuckle about them but they are usually so heavily armed that they represent a danger to themselves and others. They'll be whooping it up on Trump Inauguration Day - firing AR-15s into the air and hollering "*********** baby". 

Then somebody is gonna say "hold my beer" ....


----------



## olivaw

Guardian: *Donald Trump used anger over a rigged economic system to reach the White House – but now his opponents are using similar arguments against him*



> The rhetoric is familiar: the demands to take the country back. The railing against an out-of-touch elite. The anger at a rigged economic system.
> 
> But now the insurgent cries that propelled Donald Trump to the White House have been taken up by stunned opponents as they try to galvanise anger and fear over his election into a strategy to resist his policies and remake the left as a credible political alternative.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/20/donald-trump-protests-economy-opposition


----------



## lonewolf :)

Kids getting participation awards does not work. The new trend where everyone wins does not work in the real world where everyone cant be a winner. The lefties lose the election & they are not man enough to know how to lose. Disrupt J20 is planning for violence in the streets.


----------



## mordko

wraphter said:


> The liberals have vilified Steve Bannon as a symbol of what they hate-racism ,bigotry antisemitism ,and ***********.
> But the truth is they don't know what they are talking about and need to find a scapegoat to blame because they lost the election.
> It's interesting that they never actually quote what he said. They have created a bogey man .They live in a hermetically sealed
> mental bubble impervious to contradiction.
> 
> Here is a an interview with Steve Bannon.
> 
> 
> 
> Labelling Bannon a racist and *********** advocate is a *red herring*. The Trump victory was not based on race,it was based on class. Trump
> got the votes of the white working class ,those without a college education who had been forgotten by the elites in both the Democratic
> and Republican parties. Conditions for these people are bad --unemployment,decrease in longevity due to suicide,
> opioid addiction and obesity.
> 
> Trump won the election even though Hillary spent 10 times more than him by appealing to working class whites in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. They were voters that should have gone to Hillary.


Bannon didn't SAY anything special. He may not be a racist. It's what he did though. Under Andrew Breitbart the website was allied with respectable, Jim Buckley type conservatives. Breitbart himself called Trump a con-man and enthusiastically opposed racism at every turn.

Under Bannon Breitbart promoted the racist Birtherism conspiracy. It also aligned itself and began to defend and support ***********, segregation type racists like Jared Taylor and VDARE. 

Here is a nice summary http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ht-rejoices-at-trump-s-steve-bannon-hire.html


----------



## olivaw

The Independent: *Computer scientists say they have strong evidence election was rigged against Clinton in three key states*


> A group of renowned computer scientists and lawyers have urged Hillary Clinton to challenge the election results in three key states after they gathered "evidence" to suggest the election results were potentially manipulated.


There is no direct evidence that voting machines were hacked. The computer scientists determined that Trump performed 7% better in counties which used voting machines over those that did not. Nate Silver is skeptical, arguing that the data is better explained by demographics.

Thousands of voters have contacted the Department of Justice to demand an independent review.


----------



## sags

The US experts should examine the machines to see if they can or were tampered with.

The results of the election should not change regardless of the findings in my opinion. 

Appointing Clinton as President would cause a lot of problems.

Ensuring there is no voter fraud in the future should be the goal.


----------



## sags

I don't think it would be very hard to tamper with voting machines.

When the local slot palace held tournaments they wanted to make it exciting, so they opened regular machines and installed new chips.

During the tournament, the players were racking up big payoffs all the time.

After the tournament, they opened up the machines again and replaced the chips.


----------



## andrewf

I don't know why they don't have a physical audit trail (ie, a paper printout, for instance). Given the huge incentive to manipulate electronic voting, and the poor security track record, no one should trust electronic voting without some physical backup.


----------



## sags

Apparently, Jill Stein wants an audit and needs $2 million dollars. She has already raised $1 million towards it.


----------



## olivaw

If the audit reveals hacking but no meaningful change then the election should stand. 

If an audit revealed that hacking changed the outcome of the election, the published results should not be certified. 

I suspect nothing will be found. The evidence is fairly thin.


----------



## new dog

The election should be paper and have proper ID and so on. There should be very little opportunity for fraud and the machines should go.


----------



## olivaw

Jill Stein has raised the 2.4M. which is enough to pay for a recount in Wisconsin. The deadline is Friday. She needs additional funds to pay for Michigan and Pennsylvania's recount. 

AFAIK, the integrity of US presidential elections is high. Americans enjoy criticizing their governments and systems. The over-the-top criticism creates a false impression.


----------



## mordko

I bet Jill will be declared the winner once the recount is over and done with.


----------



## new dog

I hope her effort will bring in a system in with little chance for fraud. Both republicans and democrats have suffered from this through a number of elections. I have talked to people in the US and they don't think it is right and ID should be shown.

Even if the count goes towards Hillary which I am sure it would because there will probably be fraud there also. Looking at the voting and hearing time and time again, Trump votes switching to Hillary and never the other way around tells you something is probably going on and it should stop.


----------



## new dog

People keep saying Hillary won the popular vote but there is a lot of fishy stuff around this so this claim is probably not true. Like Trump always having huge turnouts or reports I heard in Florida that all you mostly saw was Trump signs on the lawn.

http://electionnightgatekeepers.com

It is very hard to find evidence because the fraud is hidden well or to hard to be 100 percent sure about it.

Knowing this the election should stand but the US should work very hard to make their election system as clear as possible so fraud is very hard to commit.


----------



## olivaw

*Trump peddles $149 MAGA Christmas ornament*









Sample *Amazon* reviews:



> It called Mary a nasty woman, told Joseph to go back where he came from, built a wall around the manger, and then when you press it it sings "I'm Dreaming Of A Totally White Christmas."





> There was a blue ornament, it was smarter than this one, had a lifetime of experience, supported trees of all colors and beliefs, and (get this) was loved by two million more people than this ornament but somehow this ornament is the one on Amazon.





> This ornament tried to grab me then denied it and said i was fat





> This ornament will make your Christmas tree so great. It has plans, secret plans that no one knows and your tree will be so great when you put this ornament up.





> This ornament built a wall around my tree and tried to make the Nativity figures pay for it.





> In genuine President Putin Soviet Red. Show your loyalty to the Soviet Union.





> It tried to put my nativity figures into an internment camp. Would not buy again.





> How is America not great when people have 200 dollars to blow on a cheaply made ornament?


----------



## olivaw

*George Soros targeted by Trump supporters over protests*



> Billionaire investor and philanthropist George Soros has become the target of Donald Trump supporters, who have begun organizing protests against the prominent Democratic donor whom they see as contributing to civil unrest in the wake of the 2016 elections.
> 
> The Hungarian-born investor, a Jew who survived the Nazi occupation during World War II and who has committed about $12 billion of his fortune to human rights work around the world, has long been a lightning rod for conservatives for his support of progressive causes.
> 
> That criticism reached a fever pitch online since the presidential election as Trump voters and conspiracy theorists see Soros' hand — and wallet — in the protests that raged across the country in the days following the election. It's a claim of financial support Soros' Open Society Foundations disavows.


----------



## olivaw

*'Faithless' Texas elector won't vote for Trump*



> Suprun, a paramedic from Texas who served as a firefighter during the Sept. 11 attacks, sparked controversy when he wrote a New York Times editorial last week saying that even though he is a Republican elector, he will not vote for Trump.
> 
> Suprun explained his decision to "New Day" host Alisyn Camerota, arguing that Trump "fails three basic tests" and that as a result he was seeking "another Republican" candidate to support."
> 
> "One, it's not sure to me (Trump's) able to defend the nation," Suprun said, pointing out that "there's clearly some ties to Russia that need to be examined."
> 
> Suprun also said that Trump had "not taken the opportunity since the election to unite the country in any way" and that "finally, we don't know what his financial conflicts of interest are."


----------



## new dog

.....


----------



## s1231

Be safe everyone~!



s123 said:


> (Page 17) It's not wasting time but we have to learn the lesson from the past.
> There are many cases the peaceful protests tune violent.
> Participants need aware the violence occur from Police, Authorities and radical group etc..
> The radial groups are often hired by Authorities that would like to lead conflicts and behind the grope make their profits in same time.
> They also don't care which group win or lose.
> The result are often the both of groups suffer from the riot/war.


----------



## bobsyouruncle

Big Joe knows the score...


----------



## olivaw

There were many great signs in the successful Women's March on Washington.


----------



## olivaw

The tallies are in. Crowd size estimates are not easy but the best estimates from unbiased sources put the Washington crowd side at 500,000. They were joined by millions of other marchers throughout the United States, Canada and the world. 

It is officially the *largest protest in US history*.


----------



## bobsyouruncle

olivaw said:


> It is officially the *largest protest in US history*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 13746


But nowhere near as important as the one happening today.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The tallies are in. Crowd size estimates are not easy but the best estimates from unbiased sources put the Washington crowd side at 500,000. They were joined by millions of other marchers throughout the United States, Canada and the world.
> 
> It is officially the *largest protest in US history*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 13746


It was a march, but calling it a protest is a stretch-these braindead sheep didn't have a clue what they want.


----------



## SMK

bobsyouruncle said:


> But nowhere near as important as the one happening today.


Bet Madonna won't be attending.


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## bobsyouruncle

SMK said:


> Bet Madonna won't be attending.


Such a pity. 

What a role model. What a paragon of virtue.


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## olivaw

Nelley said:


> It was a march, but calling it a protest is a stretch-these braindead sheep didn't have a clue what they want.


Nah, it was a protest. _You_ may not understand why they protested. Buttercups who are offended by Madonna's language may not understand. Most do. Time said this about the largest protest in US history. 



> There is no precedent in U.S. history for the show of collective outrage that answered Trump's Inauguration. But then, there is no precedent for Trump, either: impetuous, thin-skinned and, for his trouble, entering office facing a grassroots opposition that heated up faster than a cup of ramen.


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## SMK

Madonna's offensive language - bj offers, etc. actually offended enough men and women to vote for Trump. She should stick with singing and forget comedy.


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## Nelley

SMK said:


> Madonna's offensive language - bj offers, etc. actually offended enough men and women to vote for Trump. She should stick with singing and forget comedy.


At this point she will do literally anything for attention-she can't stand being ignored by the public.


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