# Is anyone making use of an (H)ISA in their brokerage account these days?



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

If so, which one? Any recommendations? Thanks,


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

BMO Investorline is only offering 0.65% for $C & 0.45 for $US. We are using HISA with EQ, Motive Canadian Tire & Laurentian DB.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't use any of the CAD ISAs in non-registered accounts. All that cash sits in places like EQ Bank. I only have one ISA currently and that is a USD one in my non-registered account. I collect USD and when there is enough accumulated, and it is not used for USD spending, I use an NG to convert it.

I don't see any point in having CAD ISA (or cash) sitting in a brokerage account.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> ... _I don't see any point in having CAD ISA (or cash) sitting in a brokerage account._


 ... I don't disagree but then that's an opportunity cost in the event of a market crash ... lol. 

Seriously ... those are accumulated dividends and interests and I'm lazy.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

"HISA - Remember, the 'H' is silent!"

We use TDB8150 in a couple of accounts to store spare cash. It pays 0.45%. We use it for the convenience, not the return. The return is better than 0%. That is all that can be said for it.

We have a 1 year GIC and a 2 year, to bump cash out into the future. This year's cash sits in 8150.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

DYN6000. Current paying 0.65%.

For USD, DYN6001 paying 0.40%.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

TomB16 said:


> We use TDB8150 in a couple of accounts to store spare cash. It pays 0.45%. We use it for the convenience, not the return.


Yeah, I also use TDB8150 as all my investments are at TDDI. TDB8150 actually pays 0.60%, but I'm not fussed about the rate, I just want it to be maximum convenience. I usually keep a few years expenses there all the time, and when it gets too high, I invest it in whatever my allocation demands. I use to play the HISA game, but I'm long finished with that once I decided convenience was more important than a few dollars.

ltr


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## cardhu (May 26, 2009)

I don't keep cash in non-reg brokerage accounts ... prefer a debit balance.


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

I use RBF2010. 

0.6% at RBC DI.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

cardhu said:


> I don't keep cash in non-reg brokerage accounts ... prefer a debit balance.


Can you explain what that is?

ltr


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TDB8150 still only shows 0.60%

It's convenient but shouldn't it be paying more with the BoC rate now at 1% ? I'd expect the BoC rate less 25 basis point fee.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> TDB8150 still only shows 0.60%


It was 0.45% until very recently. I didn't notice the change until LTR pointed it out.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

TDB8150 was paying 0.45% just a few days ago and it was as low as 0.25%. TD has been pretty stingy with their rates. Their GIC rates are lagging the other big banks. I haven't look in the last few days but the rates in TDDI have been horrible...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think all the banks are going to be stingy on paying savings interest on the way up. This is one of those "freebies" for them. They immediately raise the prime rate for all borrowing, but drag their feet raising deposit rates.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I am not going to blame the banks for being stingy on the deposit front given the socialists have decided profitable banks and insurance companies are not good for Canada (and for shareholders, mutual fund holders, ETF holders, pension funds, etc.). The banks need to claw their increased tax burden somehow.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I am not going to blame the banks for being stingy on the deposit front given the socialists have decided profitable banks and insurance companies are not good for Canada (and for shareholders, mutual fund holders, ETF holders, pension funds, etc.). *The banks need to claw their increased tax burden somehow.*


 ... no doubt, in order to keep up with inflation for them multi-million dollars bonuses. Not for the minions of course.

And also them banks were pleasantly surprised the tax hit was 40% less than what the Libs had pledged. Probably won't make a dent even. Business as usual on the customers with semi-annual fees "updates" (aka increases), like clockwork.


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## cardhu (May 26, 2009)

like_to_retire said:


> Can you explain what that is?


Leverage debt in a margin account … a modest negative cash balance to absorb incoming dividend income and cash flow… it is both more profitable and more tax-efficient than having a pile of cash laying around in the account … then as the debit balance dwindles to near nothing, buy something new to bring it back up again … this is during accumulation stage of course … a different approach may become necessary when we switch to removing money rather than adding it.

I do have non-reg cash, but not in a brokerage account.

I do carry a cash balance in RRSP brokerage accounts, and use the “house” HISAs there, but my impression was that the OP was asking about non-reg accounts.


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

TDB8150 is 0.75% since yesterday, you guys need to keep up!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thal81 said:


> TDB8150 is 0.75% since yesterday, you guys need to keep up!


Yup, and I think that's a reasonable rate now. Hopefully the USD rate increases soon as well.






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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

RBF DI - RBF2010 now at 0.75%

Like others, it was 0.45% a week or 2 ago.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

TDB8150 and TDB8152 -- just for convenience.


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## Brainer (Oct 8, 2015)

Okay, I know they're not technically funds, but is anyone buying the HISA ETFs? I own Purpose PSA (PSA) and there's also Evolve/NEO (HISA), which last time I checked, had a 1.36% current yield.

No one?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Brainer said:


> Okay, I know they're not technically funds, but is anyone buying the HISA ETFs? I own Purpose PSA (PSA) and there's also Evolve/NEO (HISA), which last time I checked, had a 1.36% current yield.
> 
> No one?


 .... OP here. I ended up using BMOIL's house HISA (BMT104) at a yield of .65% at the time of my post whereas Neo HISA's yield through the brokerage was .75%. 

The current gross yield of NEO HISA - direct from Evolve itself is 1.45% and I'm too lazy to move funds for an additional half a percentage. 

Instead, I'm like J4B watching rates move higher and then go play the GICs renewal game.


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## Brainer (Oct 8, 2015)

Actually 0.7%, but yes, I hear you. Moving money around can get tiresome really quickly.

WAIT...that was just a quote, right? I assume you can't purchase third-party HISA ETFs at BMOIL can you? I'm not allowed to buy them at TDDI or BMOIL.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Neo's quote came from Investor's Edge (CIBC).


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## Brainer (Oct 8, 2015)

The yield doesn't vary from brokerage to brokerage, though, right? I mean it's an ETF. Unless the quotes were taken at different times.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Brainer said:


> The yield doesn't vary from brokerage to brokerage, though, right? I mean it's an ETF. Unless the quotes were taken at different times.


 ... correct. 

GIC rates are a different story due to different providers available the brokerages.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I use both TDB8150 (for CAD) and TDB8152 (for USD)

Though I'm using it more for USD deposits because these interest rates actually seem pretty good compared to other places I can store USD cash.

I don't use that CAD one as heavily because I prefer to move any excess CAD cash into 5 year GICs. The GIC ladder is always going to perform better than high interest savings and I've become very used to the routine over the years. So my approach is keep most of my "cash" in GICs, at higher yields, along with a minimal amount in pure cash.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

By the way I recently had a weird problem with the TDB* ISA funds and wondering if anyone else has seen this happen. I placed a buy order to add some money to the ISA. The order isn't visible though. After a few days I noticed it had not executed. I've phoned TDDI but their agents are confused as well, some say they can see the order, others can't.

They think it's a "ghost order" and aren't sure if it's going to eventually fill. They told me to phone back on Monday to see what happens to the trade. Has this happened to anyone else?


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## Brainer (Oct 8, 2015)

When you say it "isn't visible", do you mean when you later go back to TD's website? Or right after you've completed it or??

Are you using Firefox, by any chance?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Brainer said:


> When you say it "isn't visible", do you mean when you later go back to TD's website? Or right after you've completed it or??
> 
> Are you using Firefox, by any chance?


I use Chrome. I mean that when logged into Webbroker, the order status doesn't even show the order. Normally I can see any order I placed, so it's really weird to have an order that cannot be seen.

I also could not see the order status immediately after placing it. So right from the start, something was wrong with that order. It's the first time I've seen this happen.

The agents have the same problem and are just as mystified. They have some people looking into it.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Suggest you screenprint your order if you're provided a reference # that was generated. That way it's date/time-stamped "proof" you placed the order and easier for the brokerage agents/tech guys to track this "ghosting" business of theirs.

Happened to me on a GIC purchase (not at TDDI though) and I said well, I got a reference plus a screen-print to prove the order went thru your systems. So where is it? It showed up a couple of days later which is weird for a GIC purchase, I gave them the lee-way of a 2/3 days settlement. It's most likely a case of "we found it!" at their end later.


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## Brainer (Oct 8, 2015)

In that case, it definitely sounds like a server-side problem.


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

TDB8150 was increased to 0.85% today. Just happy to see something positive happening in my TDDI account, cause it ain't happening very often these days 😅


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thal81 said:


> TDB8150 was increased to 0.85% today. Just happy to see something positive happening in my TDDI account, cause it ain't happening very often these days 😅


Thanks, that's great news! That's a pretty competitive rate for an ISA actually.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

I have too much cash in TDB8150. Planning on moving it over to Steinbach Credit Union. Just a regular savings account now paying 1.50% or 1.65% if over $100K.

I'm tempted to dump some in a 1 yr GIC there now paying 3.10%. But with more rate hikes coming I think I'll stay liquid for now. 

Sorry if this is wrong thread for GIC discussion!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

GGuy said:


> I have too much cash in TDB8150. Planning on moving it over to Steinbach Credit Union. Just a regular savings account now paying 1.50% or 1.65% if over $100K.
> 
> I'm tempted to dump some in a 1 yr GIC there now paying 3.10%. But with more rate hikes coming I think I'll stay liquid for now.
> 
> Sorry if this is wrong thread for GIC discussion!


If you have a ton of cash you might also consider building a 5 year GIC ladder. That's how you really get juicy yields. Over the years I have shifted my large amount of cash into a ladder, with tightly spaced GICs that mature every few months. This way I enjoy 5 year GIC rates (always beats savings accounts) and the cash is accessible as each GIC matures, every few months.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

james4beach said:


> If you have a ton of cash you might also consider building a 5 year GIC ladder. That's how you really get juicy yields. Over the years I have shifted my large amount of cash into a ladder, with tightly spaced GICs that mature every few months. This way I enjoy 5 year GIC rates (always beats savings accounts) and the cash is accessible as each GIC matures, every few months.


I agree the GIC ladder is the way to go. 

The 5 year rate is now at 4.1% at Steinbach but with more rate hikes coming this year, I'm going to wait before locking in anything longer than 1 year. 

I've been avoiding bonds for fixed income and with these rate hikes still see no reason for them. GIC ladder is simple, safe and bonds are voodoo for me at least.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

GGuy said:


> with more rate hikes coming this year


Beware though, GIC rates are based on bond market rates (not BoC rate) and it's possible that the bond market has already priced in a lot of rate hikes. You are probably right that GIC rates will go higher, but there's the possibility they are close to topping out already -- we have no idea.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

GIC rates are loosely based on bond rates. If you do a historical comparison of 5 year rates, the gap is typically 50-100 bp and sometimes outside those endpoints. Mortgage demand (or lack thereof) influences that relationship considerably, as in now, demand has caused the spread to be150bp at the 5 year rate.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> GIC rates are loosely based on bond rates. If you do a historical comparison of 5 year rates, the gap is typically 50-100 bp and sometimes outside those endpoints. Mortgage demand (or lack thereof) influences that relationship considerably, as in now, demand has caused the spread to be150bp at the 5 year rate.


Interesting, so you think it's only loose based on bond rates? When I plot my own records of 5 year GIC rates against bond yields, it looks awfully similar. At least in shape.

That's a good point though about potentially a 1% divergence between bond yields and GICs. I was only looking at historical shapes/trends but there could be a rather large offset between those yields.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The trends correlate obviously, but the spread varies.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Beware though, GIC rates are based on bond market rates (not BoC rate) and it's possible that the bond market has already priced in a lot of rate hikes. You are probably right that GIC rates will go higher, but there's the possibility they are close to topping out already -- we have no idea.


With the rate hikes being forecast, I can't see GIC rates not increasing again this year. 

Are you currently holding any bond funds? I'm struggling with why I would continue myself.

For many years I held XBB currently yielding 2.81% and down 10.27% YTD.
And CBO yielding 2.55% and down 4.55% YTD.

I can build a GIC ladder that not only will outperform those but also protects my principal. 

I've spoken to a few advisors lately who continue to use bonds in fixed part of portfolios but I guess I don't understand the intricacies of their bond investments. With raising rates I'll stick to the GIC ladder.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

GGuy said:


> Are you currently holding any bond funds? I'm struggling with why I would continue myself.
> . . .
> I can build a GIC ladder that not only will outperform those but also protects my principal.


I hold a mix of a few things in my fixed income allocation: a large amount of GICs, some individual bonds, and also XBB.

The GIC ladder is fine but I don't mind holding the bonds and XBB. They are liquid and the yields today (over 3%) are reasonably good too.

The reason I hold them is (1) I can't predict where interest rates are going to go, and (2) bond funds like XBB will still deliver good returns in the long term, even if rates go up. This is a long term holding in my RRSP, something I won't tap into for many decades from now.

On the other hand, if I needed the money in maybe 5 or 10 years, I would lean more heavily on GICs.

Remember though... rising interest rates are good for fixed income investors. Each dollar invested grows at a higher yield. That's the case whether you're holding GICs or bond funds, over a long enough time horizon.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

Yes cumulative performance of XBB over the long term has been good. It no doubt has a place as a core holding. 


XBB YTD1m3m6m1y3y5y10yIncept.Total Return (%) -10.31-3.53-7.10-8.03-8.05-2.412.3321.34144.58Benchmark (%) -10.22-3.49-7.05-7.92-7.90-2.092.8923.94156.34

XBB is at lowest level since Jan 2019 which is reflected in the 3y performance. 

I'm just wondering at this point in time if new money in GIC ladder or XBB will produce better results going forward. Hard to say and I haven't put together a new GIC ladder yet or done the cumulative math on it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

GGuy said:


> I'm just wondering at this point in time if new money in GIC ladder or XBB will produce better results going forward


I think it fluctuates day to day with the relative yields on GICs versus bonds. Today I suspect GICs are a better deal with well over 4% yields. In comparison, investment grade bonds and government yields nearly a full percent lower.

But that relationship changes over time. There have also been times when investment grade bonds (the stuff in XBB) yielded the same as GICs. The bond funds also get an additional boost in performance by "rolling down the yield curve". So over time, the two kinds of fixed income can be pretty competitive with each other, though I suspect that GICs have higher performance due to the liquidity premium.

Today I am prioritizing buying 5 year GICs because I do think they will return more.


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

Here's something positive amid the stock market bloodbath... TDB8150 now pays 1.25%. 
They say cash loses money to inflation, but cash feels pretty good these days


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Gotta check my HISA rates ... including that for greenbacks.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thal81 said:


> They say cash loses money to inflation, but cash feels pretty good these days


Don't forget GICs. You can now get 4.5%, guaranteed, completely safe.

Heck, you can make more money in a GIC than a rental property, for way less effort and risk! Wait until that dawns on the RE property investors.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Don't forget GICs. You can now get 4.5%, guaranteed, completely safe.
> 
> Heck, you can make more money in a GIC than a rental property, for way less effort and risk! Wait until that dawns on the RE property investors.


GIC's are great but they're not a substitute for real property. You won't build wealth with GIC's while real property can be life changing. Building wealth takes effort, patience, some risk, etc. This is the Canadian Money Forum is it not!


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Thal81 said:


> Here's something positive amid the stock market bloodbath... TDB8150 now pays 1.25%.
> They say cash loses money to inflation, but cash feels pretty good these days


Well at the moment, what is beating inflation - not much! The stock market is having a hissy fit! My savings accounts and GIC's keep growing and I can continue to renew at higher rates. I don't have a crystal ball so a balanced portfolio works for me.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

*"Don't forget GICs. You can now get 4.5%, guaranteed, completely safe."*
where, james....I have one maturing tomorrow...🤷‍♂️


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> *"Don't forget GICs. You can now get 4.5%, guaranteed, completely safe."*
> where, james....I have one maturing tomorrow...🤷‍♂️


EQ 4.35% on a 2 year. In 2 years rates would be higher, or NOT!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Motive and LBC Digital are both paying 4.5% on 5 year GICs. GIC rates comparison chart


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TDB8152 (USD) is now 1.0%


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

Synergy said:


> EQ 4.35% on a 2 year. In 2 years rates would be higher, or NOT!


My guess is that rate would be lower by the 3rd quarter of 2023 when the recession is in full swing.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> TDB8152 (USD) is now 1.0%


Scotiabank offers a type of savings account for 1.4% but you have to keep the money (not locked) in for 90 days.


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## crgf1k (Aug 8, 2015)

I use Purpose HISA ETF (PSA) a lot in Investor's Edge...currently 1.89%. Also have TFSA and RRSP cash on the way to Motive Financial to start laddering in on long term GICs. I'll try to be patient this year, but 5% compounding in a 10 year GIC is like getting a 6.28% dividend. I have another big GIC paying out in November, so if rates are higher then I won't feel too bad.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

crgf1k said:


> I use Purpose HISA ETF (PSA) a lot in Investor's Edge...currently 1.89%. Also have TFSA and RRSP cash on the way to Motive Financial to start laddering in on long term GICs. I'll try to be patient this year, but 5% compounding in a 10 year GIC is like getting a 6.28% dividend. I have another big GIC paying out in November, so if rates are higher then I won't feel too bad.


I'm also trying to be patient. As rates rise I think we'll get even better opportunity in coming months for higher GIC rates. I'm going to wait for 2 or 3 months before locking in more GIC's.

I use Steinbach credit Union and Oaken who are very competitive. Right now I park my cash in Steinbach's regular savings account at 1.90% and their TFSA with floating rate at 2.10% .

Not questioning your math that the 5% compounding in a 10 year GIC is like getting a 6.28% dividend. But I guess it depends on what you do with the dividend. If re-invested it can potentially beat the 5% compounding GIC.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Don't forget GICs. You can now get 4.5%, guaranteed, completely safe.
> 
> Heck, you can make more money in a GIC than a rental property, for way less effort and risk! Wait until that dawns on the RE property investors.


Not sure about that.. It's a negative real return before taxes. That's losing money

The RE property should at least appreciate with inflation. Mix of both would be better but GICs won't accumulate any wealth

Inflation is not good for GICs


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

GGuy said:


> I'm also trying to be patient. As rates rise I think we'll get even better opportunity in coming months for higher GIC rates. I'm going to wait for 2 or 3 months before locking in more GIC's.


And what if rates fall in a few months?


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

james4beach said:


> And what if rates fall in a few months?


They won't. 

I don't think inflation will be controlled in next few months (2-3) so at a minimum rates stay the same or more likely climb as the fed hikes further. IMHO

Under what scenario do you see rates falling in the near term? Not saying it can't happen, I just don't see how.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GGuy said:


> Under what scenario do you see rates falling in the near term? Not saying it can't happen, I just don't see how.


Taper tantrum scenario has played out a few times before

Fed starts to raise rates - market over reacts to the downside - Fed flinches

Fed already started to stutter today


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

GGuy said:


> Under what scenario do you see rates falling in the near term? Not saying it can't happen, I just don't see how.


See what @m3s said.

I see many ways interest rates could fall (or QE could increase), both of which amount to the same kind of thing: more stimulus.

First thing that's guaranteed to happen is that investors and real estate investors are going to complain a lot. They're going to say the Fed has gone too far, is destroying prices and destroying the economy, and will push back. They will start begging and screaming to stop raising interest rates.

Average people may complain too. Both households and businesses rely on very low interest rates loans (lines of credit, business loans). These interest rates are going up dramatically and it's going to pinch many households and businesses. So I'm sure they will also beg and scream to stop raising interest rates.

Next is the possibility of a "market dislocation". Something in the financial markets could blow-up. For example, a crash in junk bonds, or maybe another crash in mortgage bonds. You can't ever predict what it's going to be, but when asset prices plummet, something can go severely wrong. If something blows up, then the central banks really could stop raising rates. They might even cut rates.

Another possibility is Trump. He's likely to win in 2024 and the last time he was in charge, he told the Federal Reserve to cut interest rates. He very directly interfered with Federal Reserve policy and he could easily do it again. Reducing interest rates is usually a crowd-pleaser as it's a way to juice up asset prices and the economy.

Trump is also unpredictable. He's mentally ill, so it's really hard to know what he may do. Push the Fed to raise rates? Lower rates? Who knows... a total wildcard.

Another way I see is that inflation could moderate. More supply from manufacturers, or maybe some resolution to the war, could alleviate rising prices. If inflation starts to level off and maybe looks like it's no longer running away, that changes the picture completely. At that point the central bank could stop aggressively hiking rates.

Interest rates continuing to rise for the next 10 years is likely, but *not* certain.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

GGuy said:


> I don't think inflation will be controlled in next few months (2-3) so at a minimum rates stay the same or more likely climb as the fed hikes further. IMHO


I think this is a highly likely senario for next 2-3 months.


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## crgf1k (Aug 8, 2015)

GGuy said:


> Not questioning your math that the 5% compounding in a 10 year GIC is like getting a 6.28% dividend. But I guess it depends on what you do with the dividend. If re-invested it can potentially beat the 5% compounding GIC.


Ya you're right, it depends on what you do with the dividend. Bottom line is, even at 5% in this clown world I'm obligated to start locking in some decent rates. If they crash the economy/markets with higher rates, they could use that as an excuse to go back to zero rates or worse. They like to raise rates slowly but when there's a "crisis" they drop them fast.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

james4beach said:


> See what @m3s said.
> 
> I see many ways interest rates could fall (or QE could increase), both of which amount to the same kind of thing: more stimulus.
> 
> ...


Hey James, Thanks for that post. I don't disagree with pretty much everything you said.

But the big caveat is that I'm considering what rates will do in the next 2-3 months before locking in any mid/longer term GIC's. Actually I really think we have at least 12 months with more increases.

Your post mostly relates to why rates could decrease in the longer term, that is longer than 2-3 months.

Yes, investors and real estate investors are going to complain but I think the fed's objective of lowering inflation trumps that. They are in fact relatively early in the cycle of raising rates and gauging the impact on inflation. This is a months long exercise. Likely many months.

The markets are already in turmoil. I think they keep raising rates, monitoring inflation as they try to get closer to the 2-3% objective. Markets be damned.

For sure Trump is a wild card but the next presidential election is not until November 5, 2024. That's 17 months down the road. Not a factor in the next 2-3 months or even 12 months. But I agree, if he gets in then juicing the economy will be a priority so rate cuts then would be likely.

It's a nice convergence of market correction and higher interest rates so can get some excellent dividends and finally good GIC rates to build a pretty good income portfolio.

But I guess it depends on your perspective. My son is not pleased about re-newing his mortgage next year.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

GGuy said:


> But the big caveat is that I'm considering what rates will do in the next 2-3 months before locking in any mid/longer term GIC's. Actually I really think we have at least 12 months with more increases.
> 
> Your post mostly relates to why rates could decrease in the longer term, that is longer than 2-3 months.


OK that's a good point, you're talking about the next 2-3 months. And I do agree that GIC rates will likely go higher in that time period.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

GGuy said:


> Hey James, Thanks for that post. I don't disagree with pretty much everything you said.
> 
> But the big caveat is that I'm considering what rates will do in the next 2-3 months before locking in any mid/longer term GIC's. Actually I really think we have at least 12 months with more increases.


Yes. short term and central bank overnight rates are moving higher by direct action. However, longer term rates take their cue from market forces. For instance, last week the Fed raised their overnight rate by 0.75% and the market moved the rate on long bonds down. We are past the point in this tightening cycle when the curve is making a parallel shift. It is now changing slope and shape. So in other words you may wish to reconsider your forecast and focus specifically on the expected evolution of the rate at the term you are waiting to purchase.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

james4beach said:


> OK that's a good point, you're talking about the next 2-3 months. And I do agree that GIC rates will likely go higher in that time period.


Steinbach now offering Limited-time GIC special 17-month: 3.80% And Oaken at 5% for 5 year.

With more rate hikes coming we could see these go higher still. Not a bad place to park increased cash allocation to wait out a recession.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

GGuy said:


> With more rate hikes coming we could see these go higher still. Not a bad place to park increased cash allocation to wait out a recession.


Timing interest rates is a dangerous game.

How do you know interest rates are going higher? Maybe they will go lower.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Timing interest rates is a dangerous game.
> 
> How do you know interest rates are going higher? Maybe they will go lower.


My middle name is Karnac.  Maybe dating myself but loved that Carson bit.

But can they lower rates anytime soon with inflation at ~8% ? Said it before, my bet is still rates go higher in near term.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

They can't lower rates, or even stop hiking them anytime soon, without losing all credibility. That would also create a further de-anchoring of price expectations, which is very dangerous when inflation is this elevated. Anecdotally, I've heard from friends that they are buying more of "x" because the price will only go up in the future. A buddy had the backseat of his car loaded with stuff he was planning to sell on Facebook Marketplace for 3x what he paid. Who knows if he will be successful, but that's the psychology at work due to inflation. Regular people are not even thinking about a recession right now.

IMO, it's gonna take more than 2-3 months to get inflation below 3%. Probably more like a year or longer. Assuming they only hike by .25% at each meeting, that suggests a rate peaking near 3.5% by this time next year. It's probably more likely to be 4-4.5% though. I could be wrong and they stop hiking earlier, but that would further damage their already tarnished credibility.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> IMO, it's gonna take more than 2-3 months to get inflation below 3%. Probably more like a year or longer. Assuming they only hike by .25% at each meeting, that suggests a rate peaking near 3.5% by this time next year. It's probably more likely to be 4-4.5% though. I could be wrong and they stop hiking earlier, but that would further damage their already tarnished credibility.


It could have peaked but hard to say how long it stays above 3%

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy where you have people stocking up and paying whatever prices because they assume prices are only going up. Could come down fast temporarily for the same reason - people already stocked up and then expect prices to collapse

I think we will have bullwhip effect for awhile I'm watching to see if the effect increases or decreases (like are we losing control or gaining control) Things are gonna swing back and forth and confuse the hell out of most people

Interesting to see if overstocked retail actually lower their prices


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The TDB8152 in USD is now at 2.05%

I'm going to move all of my USD from my regular bank account into this ISA. That rate is very competitive.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

The rates for brokerage HISA's continually oscillate from below competitive to above competitive, but on average they're in the ball park. Their real advantage is reducing any drag on yield from moving cash around to various external HISA accounts.

If I have a stock I am watching and want to buy, it may present an appealing price that I want to act upon immediately. If I make a bid and I'm successful, I have a T+2 settlement to satisfy with the clock ticking to come up with that cash. With a brokerage HISA, it's easy to satisfy at T+1, but what do you do if you are playing the HISA game? Can you get the cash that fast?

ltr


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Meanwhile, Simplii just sent me a promo: "Grow your U.S. savings with 1.65% interest" -- not good enough


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Canada’s largest banks block clients’ access to high-yielding funds

Above article is behind paywall (with likelihood of nothing being new) but an update in its entirety is below: 

_



Clara O'Hara, Wealth Management Reporter, The Globe and Mail, August 27, 2022

Several of Canada’s largest banks have blocked their financial advisers from offering clients certain high-interest cash funds during a period in which investors are flocking to safer investments amid shaky stock and bond markets, a restriction regulators may examine in a continuing review of industry sales practices.

Advisers at several major banks are not able to buy their clients high-interest-savings ETFs, also known as cash ETFs or HISA ETFs. These products mainly invest in pools of banks’ high-interest savings accounts and deposits. Instead, the banks’ investment arms are prompting their advisers to offer the banks’ own proprietary savings accounts directly to clients.

Royal Bank of Canada RY-T, Bank of Montreal BMO-T, Toronto-Dominion Bank TD-T and Bank of Nova Scotia BNS-T all block their advisers from buying the HISA ETFs, placing them on “restricted lists” usually reserved for risky, volatile investments.

It’s another stumbling block for independent fund companies in Canada that manage and sell the cash funds. Do-it-yourself investors who use discount brokerage trading platforms at RBC, BMO and TD are also blocked from purchasing HISA ETFs.

Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce CM-T and National Bank of Canada NA-T provide access to cash ETFs at their discount brokerages and their investment-adviser brokerages, CIBC Wood Gundy and National Bank Financial. Scotia iTrade allows do-it-yourself investors to access cash ETFs but does not allow investment advisers at Scotia McLeod to purchase cash ETFs for clients.

Some of the banks who block sales of the cash ETFs told The Globe and Mail they believe they offer a satisfactory suite of cash products to their clients, making the HISA ETFs unnecessary.

However, Canadians who use independent discount brokerages or other sellers of cash ETFs flocked to the product as interest rates began to rise earlier this year. Investors injected more than $1.6-billion into those ETFs in the first half of the year. In Canada, there are currently six HISA ETFs with almost $9-billion in total assets under management as of July 30, according to data from National Bank Financial.

The draw for many investors is how quickly the yields on the products jump as interest rates rise. The yields of HISA ETFs averaged 1.45 per cent in May and have doubled to about 3 per cent. Traditional high-interest CDIC-insured savings accounts currently pay 2 per cent to 2.3 per cent.

Management expense ratios for the HISA ETFs range between 0.05 per cent and 0.39 per cent.

Julia Mackenzie, spokesperson for the Investment Industry Regulatory Organization of Canada, said that while the organization oversees discount brokerages and full-service investment dealers, it does not regulate the products dealer firms offer.

“Though there are product due diligence requirements, there is no restriction on what dealers can offer or choose not to offer to clients,” Ms. Mackenzie said in an e-mail to The Globe.

However, Ms. Mackenzie says a group of Canadian regulators is conducting a broader compliance sweep, looking to see if there are any potential conflicts of interest among investment dealers. She said regulators will – among other things – examine conflicts associated with proprietary products and related restrictions of firms’ product offerings.

The broad sweep is being jointly conducted by IIROC, the Mutual Fund Dealers Association and the Canadian Securities Administrators – an umbrella group representing provincial and territorial securities commissions – with the goal of examining how investment firms are implementing a set of new rules called client-focused reforms.

The sweep is independent of another review conducted earlier this year by the Ontario Securities Commission on the product offerings of Canada’s largest banks. Ontario Finance Minister Peter Bethlenfalvy launched that review after he said he had concerns about financial institutions halting sales or “unduly” restricting sales of third-party investment funds. The OSC submitted recommendations to him on Feb 28.

The OSC declined to comment on its recommendations, referring questions to the Finance Minister. Mr. Bethlenfalvy’s office has not responded to several e-mail requests sent by The Globe on whether the recommendations would be released to the public.

RBC Dominion Securities Inc., Royal Bank’s investment arm, is one of the country’s largest full-service securities brokerages, with 1,900 securities advisers. RBC spokesperson Kathy Bevan said in an e-mail that although RBC does not currently offer HISA ETFs to clients, the bank offers “a number of competitive products to meet their short-term cash investment objectives.”

“We periodically review and monitor our product offerings to ensure we are able to provide our clients with best-in-class solutions and customized strategies to meet their financial goals,” Ms. Bevan said.

Jeff Roman, a spokesperson for BMO, said the bank only offers CDIC-insured high-interest-savings accounts, while TD spokesperson Derek Kirk said HISA ETFs are not “generally available” to be sold by TD Wealth advisers at this time, but the bank reviews its product offerings on an “ongoing basis.”

Scotiabank declined to comment on its adviser channel.

By contrast, Martin Gagnon, National Bank’s head of wealth management and the co-chief executive of National Bank Financial, said in an e-mail the bank’s advisers have the “freedom to select the best investment product based on their clients’ personal and financial objectives, their personal situation, etc.”

“If a third party HISA ETF is the best solution for a client, they are available,” he said.

Click to expand...

 ... _would be interesting to see that a class-action lawsuit doesn't come about on this after the regulator's study of a conflict of interest.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> _ ... _would be interesting to see that a class-action lawsuit doesn't come about on this after the regulator's study of a conflict of interest.


I always wondered how the big brokerages get away with this, blocking access to a product that competes with their bank.

To me that seems like blatantly anti-competitive behaviour.

For example, some brokerages don't allow you to buy PSA. This high interest savings fund has 2.85% yield or about 2.70% after fees. That's significantly more than the 2.25% offered by TD's own product, TDB8150. But TD Direct Investing doesn't allow trading on PSA, as far as I know.

What could be the reason, other than denying investors access to a competitive product? It certainly isn't for investor safety. There are far more dangerous ETFs that one can trade without restriction.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Flugzeug said:


> I use RBF2010.
> 
> 0.6% at RBC DI.


That is very uncompetitive. I figure the best option is to buy ST treasury notes . Last I checked I could get notes that expire in Dec that pay something like 2.8%.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The ISAs at most discount brokerages is currently 2.25%, including RBF20210 Investment Savings Accounts: Maximize Interest in Your Brokerage Account - Mr. Thrifty Canada - Save More. Make More. Live Bigly.

They will go up again a week or two after the next BoC rate increase. Some are quick to increase, others are laggards.


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

zinfit said:


> That is very uncompetitive. I figure the best option is to buy ST treasury notes . Last I checked I could get notes that expire in Dec that pay something like 2.8%.


Very uncompetitive for 5/6 months ago, or today? 2.25% now. Seems in line with other ISAs today.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Flugzeug said:


> Very uncompetitive for 5/6 months ago, or today? 2.25% now. Seems in line with other ISAs today.


I think the 2.25% is pretty competitive for cash. At my brokerage, I also see government treasury bills like these (which are yields after trading fees)
2 months @ 2.37%
3 months @ 2.66%

Considering that 2 months is almost like cash, I'd say the ISA rate is pretty competitive


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

RBF 2010 interest rate is at 2.85% today. How are others comparing?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Flugzeug said:


> RBF 2010 interest rate is at 2.85% today. How are others comparing?


See post #81. The site updates every Friday I think. 

P.S. RBF2010 is 2.75%


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> See post #81. The site updates every Friday I think.
> 
> P.S. RBF2010 is 2.75%


I just looked at RBF 2010 about ten minutes ago. Showing 2.85% for me (on RBC Direct Investing).


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Not from what I see Investment Savings Account - RBC Royal Bank 

RBF2010 is the Series A offering for retail customers.


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Not from what I see Investment Savings Account - RBC Royal Bank
> 
> RBF2010 is the Series A offering for retail customers.


Interesting. Perhaps that will update in the coming days.
This is what I see when looking at the product page:


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Guess Royal's QC is not up to snuff..... It should be 2.85% to compete with TDB8150 at 2.85%.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

It seems the BoC has succeeded in hiking rates more aggressively than the US Federal Reserve.

As of Sept 12,
The US Fed Funds rate is 2.33% ; the 6-month t-bill 3.56%
Bank of Canada rate is 3.25% ; the 6-month t-bill is 3.59%

I think the 6-month t-bill rates are showing that both policies are on the same trajectory but the BoC is a few steps ahead.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The US Fed is behind primarily due to timing of meetings. The US Fed will raise 75 bp on Sept 20-21.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I noticed Scotia raised their DYN series of CAD ISA rates to 2.9% today. Just need BMO IL to do similarly with BMT series and I will be smiling in both accounts!


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> I noticed Scotia raised their DYN series of CAD ISA rates to 2.9% today. Just need BMO IL to do similarly with BMT series and I will be smiling in both accounts!


Hard to believe the increase over the past year. From less than 1/4%


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I also found out from another forum that Scotia iTrade account holders apparently are able to buy the BNS F series version, i.e. DYN6004, that pays 3.05% (no 15bp trailer fee). I put in a test buy this morning to find out if the order will be accepted. If so, I don't know how long that has been in place. Maybe since June 1st when OSC banned trailer fees in DIY accounts? Or has been there for some time? Will post later this week when the test is complete.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> I also found out from another forum that Scotia iTrade account holders apparently are able to buy the BNS F series version, i.e. DYN6004, that pays 3.05% (no 15bp trailer fee). I put in a test buy this morning to find out if the order will be accepted.


Wow please let us know how that goes.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

TD is 2.90% now


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

TD, please increase to 3%!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Some key players like TD, BNS and RBC (but not BMO yet) are now at 2.9% for A series ISAs. I doubt anyone will move to 3% for Series A (they are all 3.05% for Series F).

James, I will know after settlement tonight if BNS DYN6004 Series F has gone through. If it does, I will attempt a major switch on Monday from DYN5000 (equivalent to DYN6000) to DYN6004. I am not fussed about 3.05% vs 2.9% for my ISA funds in the overall scheme of things ($100k @ 15bp = $150/yr BT) but if it is there for a minute or two of work, I will take it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Covariance said:


> TD is 2.90% now


That's great. The overnight rate is 3.25% so this now within 35 basis points, not bad.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Some key players like TD, BNS and RBC (but not BMO yet) are now at 2.9% for A series ISAs. I doubt anyone will move to 3% for Series A (they are all 3.05% for Series F).
> 
> James, I will know after settlement tonight if BNS DYN6004 Series F has gone through. If it does, I will attempt a major switch on Monday from DYN5000 (equivalent to DYN6000) to DYN6004. I am not fussed about 3.05% vs 2.9% for my ISA funds in the overall scheme of things ($100k @ 15bp = $150/yr BT) but if it is there for a minute or two of work, I will take it.


The purchase of DYN6004 settled in my iTrade cash account last night.

Also, the BMT series A of ISAs moved to 2.9% overnight it seems. I have similar values of ISA funds in each of BMO IL and Scotia iTrade.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> The purchase of DYN6004 settled in my iTrade cash account last night.


Quite interesting. Does that mean you're thinking of moving a larger amount of money into it on Monday?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Quite interesting. Does that mean you're thinking of moving a larger amount of money into it on Monday?


Yes. Sell DYN5000 Monday and buy DYN6004 Tuesday for a grand uplift of 15bp. It's more the principle of the thing rather than the dollars.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Yes. Sell DYN5000 Monday and buy DYN6004 Tuesday for a grand uplift of 15bp. It's more the principle of the thing rather than the dollars.


15 bp for a few clicks is nothing to sneeze at. I keep my bond+GIC ladder at iTrade, which spits off coupons and maturing bonds. I often keep things in cash for a while until it's time to update my ladder. I wouldn't mind a bit of extra performance.

But a google search of "DYN6004" doesn't find much, other than the other forum's post. Are you sure that's the right code? You'd think a series F code would be documented somewhere.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

From Mr Thrifty's ISA site https://ads.scotiabank.com/ADS/Download/980/en

P.S. Someone on another site tried DYN5004 and it did not work.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> From Mr Thrifty's ISA site https://ads.scotiabank.com/ADS/Download/980/en


Very neat, thanks. My Chrome browser didn't like this download link for some reason, but I attached the PDF to this post if anyone needs it


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The interest rate on TDB8152 (for USD) has increased from 2.20% to 2.70% after the Fed rate hike.

For comparison,
The Fed Funds rate is in the range 3% to 3.25%
The US 3 month t-bill yields 3.21%

I'll see if TD increases the rate in a few days, otherwise it may be time for me to buy T-bills or SHV @Covariance @AltaRed


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I speculated earlier today elsewhere the ISA rate might be 2.8-2.85%. I am hoping* BNS moves to 2.8% next week (they are upwards of 3-5 business days behind TD and RBC). Though TD and RBC went to 2.85% on the CAD ISAs, BNS up'd them a few days later going straight to 2.9% on the CAD ISAs. The others quickly followed.

* I want to be proven 100% right..... 😁

Added: @james4beach - Scotia iTrade appears to be honoring my purchase of DYN6004 F class. It settles tonight.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

james4beach said:


> The interest rate on TDB8152 (for USD) has increased from 2.20% to 2.70% after the Fed rate hike.
> 
> For comparison,
> The Fed Funds rate is in the range 3% to 3.25%
> ...


I tend to use a combo of ISA and actual securities with rolling maturities. Keep in mind the ETF has a record date for the distribution. .


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Added: @james4beach - Scotia iTrade appears to be honoring my purchase of DYN6004 F class. It settles tonight.


Intriguing, thanks


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Does anyone here use the Horizons *CASH* fund?

Have the big bank brokerages banned trading CASH as well, like they banned PSA? (we need a lawsuit for that anti-competitive behaviour)

The Horizons site shows 3.79% yield. Subtract the MER and that leaves 3.66% yield.
That's significantly better than TDB8150 at 2.90%


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I would imagine all of the cash equivalent ETFs would be banned by the brokerage's corporate parent. The G&M article listed some exceptions in discount brokerages. I think all one can do is do a Test Buy and see. Personally, I am not fond of these cash ETFs due tot the buy/sell commissions (and no, I am not going to move accounts to the fringe players just for commission free trades). I don't keep enough cash to make it worthwhile and the cash is fluid anyway with monthly buy/sells.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> I would imagine all of the cash equivalent ETFs would be banned by the brokerage's corporate parent


Seems to be the case. I just tried test orders and TD blocks both CASH and PSA with the same message to phone customer support.

I still don't see how this is legal. They are directly blocking customers from lending money to someone else, to force the customer to lend money to TD at a lower interest rate. This also effectively forces customers to pay the 0.25% trailing fee. Maybe it's time to sue TD for damages, at least for that forced 25 basis point fee. Let's say that's on $50 billion in forced deposits after blocking their competitors, perhaps about $100 million in damages?

Here's the G&M article:

​Banks block online sale of cash ETFs that compete with bank savings products​​PUBLISHED JULY 4, 2022​​Some of Canada’s largest banks are blocking online investors from buying high-interest-savings exchange traded funds, which compete with the banks’ own lucrative deposit accounts.​​The discount brokerage arms at Royal Bank of Canada, Bank of Montreal and Toronto-Dominion Bank do not allow do-it-yourself investors to purchase high-interest-savings ETFs, also known as cash ETFs, or HISA ETFs. The funds, which are run by independent asset managers, mainly invest in pools of banks’ high-interest savings accounts and deposits.​​Investing in high-interest-savings ETFs offers investors liquidity, whereas the equivalent products at banks – savings accounts and guaranteed investment certificates – may have locked-in investment horizons, and can be slow to react to rising interest rates.​​Mark Noble, executive vice-president of ETF Strategy at Horizons ETFs Management (Canada) Inc., said the company has never been able to get clear answers about why its HISA ETFs have not been listed to trade on the discount brokerages at some banks.​​“Historically, we have never seen a discount brokerage in Canada choose to not have an ETF listed on their platform,” Mr. Noble said. “Investors can buy an inverse bitcoin fund, a cannabis fund or two-times leveraged funds without any barriers. But then are being told they are not able to purchase a cash ETF. It is as low risk as you can get.”​​Dan Hallett, vice-president and principal with HighView Financial Group, said he finds it surprising that do-it-yourself investors aren’t able to buy low-risk cash ETFs at certain discount brokerages, even as “risky, leveraged ETFs have proliferated for more than a decade.”​​“Discount brokerages that restrict access are allowing access only to their own proprietary savings accounts, which generally pay a lower interest rate than the net rate available from most cash ETFs,” he said. “In other words, they’re not allowing clients to invest in those cash ETFs so that they can raise more, cheaper deposit capital.”​​Currently, there are six cash ETFs in Canada. They are: the Horizons Cash Maximizer ETF (HSAV-T), the Horizons High Interest Savings ETF (CASH-T), the CI High Interest Savings ETF (CSAV-T), the Purpose High Interest Savings ETF (PSA-T), the Evolve High Interest Savings Account Fund (HISA-NEO) and the Ninepoint High Interest Savings Fund ETF Series (NSAV-NE).​​Management expense ratios for the category range between 0.05 per cent and 0.39 per cent, and the funds provide gross yield, before fees, of about 1.95 per cent.​​Bank of Nova Scotia, Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce and National Bank of Canada sell the ETFs through their discount brokerages.​​RBC spokesperson Kathy Bevan said in an e-mail that decisions about product selection on the bank’s discount trading platform are “carefully considered and reviewed regularly.” Any client who is interested in short-term retail deposits, she said, can access an RBC investment savings account, which is not a bank account but rather a short-term cash account that is available to all RBC Direct Investing customers.​​TD spokesperson Derek Kirk confirmed that TD Direct Investing – Canada’s largest discount brokerage – does not allow clients to trade HISA ETFs. Instead, he said, TD directs clients to its TD investment savings accounts, which are CDIC-insured bank accounts.​​Bank of Montreal spokesperson Jeff Roman confirmed in an e-mail that the bank does not sell HISA ETFs. For investors interested in savings, he added, the bank “currently offers a CDIC insured high interest savings account” through its advisory and self-directed channels.​​With rising interest rates, HISA ETFs have begun to see a bump in assets. In Canada, they have recorded more than $1.6-billion in sales in the first half of the year, according to data provided by National Bank Financial. HISA ETFs had $7.8-billion in total assets under management as of June 30.​​In comparison, high-interest savings accounts in Canada had about $541-billion in assets as of December, 2021, according to research provided by Investor Economics, a unit of ISS Market Intelligence. The Big Six banks account for over 75 per cent of that business.​​Another $588-billion sits in guaranteed investment certificates, a type of savings product that typically provides locked-in rates for set periods of time. GICs are one of the fastest growing product categories in today’s interest rate environment, according to Carlos Cardone, senior managing director at Investor Economics. Almost half of the balance held in GICs is at the Big Six banks.​​Mr. Cardone said that while growth in high-interest savings accounts slowed to about 5 per cent in 2021, as investors chased higher returns in the stock markets, early evidence suggests that more recent market volatility may have resulted in much faster savings-account growth in recent months.​​“The product category had been in net redemptions since rates dropped early in the pandemic and is now staging a major comeback,” Mr. Cardone added.​​Mr. Hallett said most banks were slow to raise their rates this year on certain savings accounts as interest rates climbed, because of the large captive audience in those products.​​“They would have likely responded sooner had they actually been competing with each other and these ETFs,” he said.​​


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Does anyone here use the Horizons *CASH* fund?
> 
> Have the big bank brokerages banned trading CASH as well, like they banned PSA? (*we need a lawsuit for that anti-competitive behaviour)*
> 
> ...


 ... I'm looking forward to that - bolded part - bring it on, I say!


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

james4beach said:


> It seems the BoC has succeeded in hiking rates more aggressively than the US Federal Reserve.
> 
> As of Sept 12,
> The US Fed Funds rate is 2.33% ; the 6-month t-bill 3.56%
> ...


Not so with the 5 year rate. The US is close to 4% and the Canadian is 3.35%. Anomaly ?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It likely means investors believe Canada's inflation over the next 5 years is likely to be less in aggregate than that of the USA. So far, that has been the trend.

P.S. The US 6 month T-bill rate as of Sept 23 was 3.85% (post US Fed rate increase) and the 5 year rate is 3.96% https://home.treasury.gov/resource-...yield_curve&field_tdr_date_value_month=202209


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

zinfit said:


> Not so with the 5 year rate. The US is close to 4% and the Canadian is 3.35%. Anomaly ?


CAD yields will not need to go as high because economy will show weakness earlier which takes pressure off inflation which takes pressure off CB to raise short term rates (higher on a relative basis).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Covariance said:


> CAD yields will not need to go as high because economy will show weakness earlier which takes pressure off inflation which takes pressure off CB to raise short term rates (higher on a relative basis).


Our central bank acted earlier, so that might be part of it. And the BoC made a huge (surprise) rate hike pretty early in their tightening schedule, something the Fed didn't do.

Maybe our yields won't peak as high as American yields because of that faster/stronger initial action.

In other news, the US Dollar is absolutely soaring against all currencies. The CAD is plummeting sharply now, though not as dramatically as what's going on with some other currencies. This could also be an indication of sharp global deleveraging. Many players were short USD (borrowed dollars) as part of their leverage. Soaring short term US rates and soaring USD is probably forcing everyone to cover, like a global margin call on borrowing and leverage.


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## GGuy (Mar 21, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Does anyone here use the Horizons *CASH* fund?
> 
> Have the big bank brokerages banned trading CASH as well, like they banned PSA? (we need a lawsuit for that anti-competitive behaviour)
> 
> ...


I'm looking to park some cash for 8 months so this is interesting.

As of today, Horizon site shows 3.79% yield but TD Waterhouse today shows me Dividend Yield 3.33% with management fee of .18 so net yield of 3.15% for the CASH ETF.

Also considering opening my first Tangerine account to take advantage of their promo - 4.25% interest in your Savings Account for 5 months.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

GGuy said:


> I'm looking to park some cash for 8 months so this is interesting.
> 
> As of today, Horizon site shows 3.79% yield but TD Waterhouse today shows me Dividend Yield 3.33% with management fee of .18 so net yield of 3.15% for the CASH ETF.
> 
> Also considering opening my first Tangerine account to take advantage of their promo - 4.25% interest in your Savings Account for 5 months.


Just keep in mind that interest is earned by owning the ETF on the record date which occurs once a month. With a typical savings account you earn based on your daily balance, each day.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Additionally, posted yields on anything but the ETF provider's website will likely be trailing yield annualized. Besides having to pay attention to 'record date', there is also the buy/sell commissions depending on which brokerage one is with.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Covariance said:


> CAD yields will not need to go as high because economy will show weakness earlier which takes pressure off inflation which takes pressure off CB to raise short term rates (higher on a relative basis).


The CD dollar is trading at .72 cents today. If BOC wants a dollar closer to .80 cents they can't take a pass on hikes. They might get a .65 cent dollar if they ignore this reality.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

zinfit said:


> The CD dollar is trading at .72 cents today. If BOC wants a dollar closer to .80 cents they can't take a pass on hikes. They might get a .65 cent dollar if they ignore this reality.


They don't have a mandate or objective for the exchange rate. That is an issue for the Finance Department and elected officials. Presumably as part of their long term strategy for industrial policy and global competitiveness. And their shorter term plan for Gov't expenditures/deficits and investment climate.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree BoC does not have a specific exchange rate mandate, but BoC does care about the loonie to some degree and have said so in public comments....to the extent a plummeting loonie causes import inflation, or on the strengthening side, to the extent growth and thus GDP is stalled/stunted.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> I agree BoC does not have a specific exchange rate mandate, but BoC does care about the loonie to some degree and have said so in public comments....to the extent a plummeting loonie causes import inflation, or on the strengthening side, to the extent growth and thus GDP is stalled/stunted.


Agreed. However, I took OP's comment as a literal expectation that they would "defend" an exchange rate target. Not really the game plan.

It's easier to see it play out in the US. Fed doesn't talk about it. Treasury does.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I asked TD to explain to me why they don't permit trades on PSA, CASH, etc.

They pointed me to this TD document, which says:


For certain types of products (such as principal protected notes, principal-at-risk notes, investment savings accounts and short term GICs), TD Direct Investing may offer only TD products. We address this conflict by assessing the products we make available to our clients.​


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> The TDB8152 in USD is now at 2.05%
> 
> I'm going to move all of my USD from my regular bank account into this ISA. That rate is very competitive.


In 2009, I adopted a strategy of parking money in high paying REITs (my best value REIT at the time), instead of bonds. Even if just for a few months.

It was a variation on the strategy of parking money in VOO, which was just gaining popularity at the time.

I'm sure the idea of parking money in VOO will cause some CMF folks severe heart burn but it has proven a highly effective technique. The idea is that gains and losses will wash away over time and the VOO exposure will leave you with market gains over the years if you just ignore the short term gains/losses.

Perhaps mentioning the idea will prompt outrage from the same people it did a decade ago.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I asked TD to explain to me why they don't permit trades on PSA, CASH, etc.
> 
> They pointed me to this TD document, which says:
> 
> ​For certain types of products (such as principal protected notes, principal-at-risk notes, investment savings accounts and short term GICs), TD Direct Investing may offer only TD products. We address this conflict by assessing the products we make available to our clients.​​


 ... I see the first sentence but I don't see the wordings about "We address this conflict ..." why don't they just say we ain't offering you anything in this area other than our products because we just can. 

I wouldn't sweat the limited offering (unless there's a large/significant percentage gap between their inhouse (H)ISAs versus their competitors) other than saying "so much for being a discount brokerage!". But then again, other discount brokerages with the banks are likely doing the same so they all get away with it. Of course, those with Scotia iTrade would have it so lucky.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> In 2009, I adopted a strategy of parking money in high paying REITs (my best value REIT at the time), instead of bonds. Even if just for a few months.
> 
> It was a variation on the strategy of parking money in VOO, which was just gaining popularity at the time.
> 
> ...


Using VOO - assuming we are talking about the SP500 - as a substitute for cash is about the most irresponsible and crazy thing I’ve ever heard of. Most have been created by the same crowd that brought out liar loans.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Covariance said:


> Using VOO - assuming we are talking about the SP500 - as a substitute for cash is about the most irresponsible and crazy thing I’ve ever heard of. Most have been created by the same crowd that brought out liar loans.


Yes. VOO - Vanguard S&P 500 index.

If someone parks money in VOO 40 times over the course a decade, and if the hold time is not too small (perhaps 30 day minimum), those 40 transactions will end up being net positive unless the values are so small as to have the gains consumed by commissions.

I've never done it but I find it a provocative idea.

BTW, my idea to park money in DRG-UN and then later in NVU-UN somewhat backfired because I never wanted to lose the distributions. In every case I can think of, I saved new money to replace the parked money and ended up building those two into huge positions which later created major concerns in my portfolio when each company went away.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Yes. VOO - Vanguard S&P 500 index.
> 
> If someone parks money in VOO 40 times over the course a decade, and if the hold time is not too small (perhaps 30 day minimum), those 40 transactions will end up being net positive unless the values are so small as to have the gains consumed by commissions.


 ... just put a disclaimer that there're blackout periods for VOO - just like today ... a quick glance right now shows the DOW is minus 611 ... LOLOLOLOL!



> I've never done it but I find it a provocative idea.


 ... cluck, cluck, cluckoo, chicken.



> BTW, my idea to park money in DRG-UN and then later in NVU-UN somewhat backfired because I never wanted to lose the distributions. In every case I can think of, I saved new money to replace the parked money and ended up building those two into huge positions which later created major concerns in my portfolio when each company went away.


 ... not if you put it in a registered account. I missed NVU.UN but then I made some moola when that company vanished.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Beaver Bickerton said:


> ... just put a disclaimer that there're blackout periods for VOO - just like today ... a quick glance right now shows the DOW is minus 611 ... LOLOLOLOL!


I understand the point of the exercise is to specifically not make any attempt to time the market.




Beaver Bickerton said:


> ... cluck, cluck, cluckoo, chicken.


Indeed.




Beaver Bickerton said:


> ... not if you put it in a registered account. I missed NVU.UN but then I made some moola when that company vanished.


Traders will roll their eyes but I would far rather own a well run company than take a short term 15% gain. I've found replacing core holdings to be a difficult proposition. I've done it, with varying degrees of success, but I would prefer to continue those type of productive partnerships despite the gainful divorce.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> If someone parks money in VOO 40 times over the course a decade, and if the hold time is not too small (perhaps 30 day minimum), those 40 transactions will end up being net positive unless the values are so small as to have the gains consumed by commissions.


There are a few problems with this, but a big one is that a person's need for cash (liquidity) tends to coincide with weak stock markets.

There is a model for understanding stock market behaviour, which I generally agree with, that stocks are largely driven by liquidity. In the broad economy, when lots of people have lots of money (both in their hands and in asset wealth), it tends to find its way into stocks.

So in boom times when businesses are strong, salaries are strong, and people are getting wealthier, they have lots of excess liquidity and buy stocks, driving stocks higher. Low interest rates also create liquidity, since people borrow and then *use* that money as well... including to buy stocks.

And the reverse is true as well. That's really why you should keep your liquidity needs (cash) stored in savings accounts and GICs.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> And the reverse is true as well. That's really why you should keep your liquidity needs (cash) stored in savings accounts and GICs.


I read about the idea on an American investing web site. At time, I recoiled just as you and cainvest have done. Unlike you two, I did not tell them they were wrong without doing the least bit of analysis. In fact, I didn't respond at all.

A couple of weeks later, I found myself stitching together models of the VOO parking approach against my American account. This was around 2010, so I wasn't in Tesla at the time. I had a few stocks and some VOO. There were few changes in that account so little cash over time but I did find that I would have benefited from the approach over a long duration, even under the penalty of withholding tax I would have been exposed to at the time.

I've never implemented the VOO parking idea but I don't tell it's proponents that it doesn't work. I've studied it. It does work, in many situations.

This case is one of the reasons I feel it is so important to do your own research and study. If someone suggests something, even if it sounds stupid, it might be worth doing some modelling of a few scenarios. It's amazing how much misinformation is floating around. Even if you don't embrace the idea, at least the modelling and study will allow you to understand it and speak to it intelligently.

BTW, parking all of your money in VOO would have a high chance of being your best approach, as opposed to balancing, diversifying, shifting sectors based on macro factors, etc.

Where the idea really applies is to value investors who want to own companies. That is people like me. My companies frequently do not reflect the market and I only focus on the company I feel is the best value at the time, based on my estimated enterprise value versus the actual enterprise value. I buy outliers. In fact, if you were to remove a few Cinderella stories from my investing history, VOO would be my best performing asset.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> Yes. VOO - Vanguard S&P 500 index.
> 
> If someone parks money in VOO 40 times over the course a decade, and if the hold time is not too small (perhaps 30 day minimum), those 40 transactions will end up being net positive unless the values are so small as to have the gains consumed by commissions.
> 
> I've never done it but I find it a provocative idea.


I believe I misunderstood and thought it was meant for the investor's allocation to the zero price asset class (cash).

If we are talking about cash the investor wants to deploy (ie part of their return/risk seeking allocation) but have not found a compelling opportunity - then this makes perfect sense, except in a downward trending market. 

A common strategy for deployment is to quite simply buy SPY, except in a downward trending market, and then sell it off as we build up positions in active stock selections after the fact, thereby maintaining a target exposure to equities. Cash has zero beta, so on a relative basis we want to hold it in a declining market to outperform but the not in an upward trending market.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> At time, I recoiled just as you and cainvest have done. Unlike you two, I did not tell them they were wrong without doing the least bit of analysis. In fact, I didn't respond at all.


Not sure what this is referring to but who is to say others (or myself) have not done some analysis? Sometimes analysis isn't even required based on the requirements of the person investing.



TomB16 said:


> I've never implemented the VOO parking idea but I don't tell it's proponents that it doesn't work. I've studied it. It does work, in many situations.
> 
> This case is one of the reasons I feel it is so important to do your own research and study. If someone suggests something, even if it sounds stupid, it might be worth doing some modelling of a few scenarios. It's amazing how much misinformation is floating around. Even if you don't embrace the idea, at least the modelling and study will allow you to understand it and speak to it intelligently.


Sure you can study different senarios but one must also take the individual into account. Even if something models positive 8 times out of 10 doesn't automatically make it right for everyone. It could turn out those 2 bad times could really hurt someone financially where as a safer (and commonplace) method would not.


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## Flugzeug (Aug 15, 2018)

RBF2010 has a rate of 3.25% as of this morning.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Flugzeug said:


> RBF2010 has a rate of 3.25% as of this morning.


Same jump to 3.25% for TD's TDB8150.

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

One can get a perspective of all the offerings from Mr Thrifty's website.

One needs to click the individual links to be more sure of knowing the latest updates, and in the case of BMO, it appears one has to go online within BMO IL's website to get rates. Scotia jumped to 3.65/3.7% on Oct 26th before the BoC announcement.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

It's a great time to be a saver.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Covariance said:


> It's a great time to be a saver.


Not particularly so in my view given those rates are still only about 50% of inflation. There was a time pre-pandemic when HISA rates were approximately even with inflation.

When central bankers and analysts talk about 'real' interest rates, that generally means the central bank rate is about the same as inflation. It's been a relatively long time (pre-financial crisis) since we saw that, a very brief period circa 2018 (I think) notwithstanding.

Current rates still motivate a consumer to buy now to avoid an inflationary 6-10% increase next year on the same thing, rather than sock it away in a 3-4% HISA. That needs to be either neutralized or flipped 180.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> Not particularly so in my view given those rates are still only about 50% of inflation. There was a time pre-pandemic when HISA rates were approximately even with inflation.
> 
> When central bankers and analysts talk about 'real' interest rates, that generally means the central bank rate is about the same as inflation. It's been a relatively long time (pre-financial crisis) since we saw that, a very brief period circa 2018 (I think) notwithstanding.
> 
> Current rates still motivate a consumer to buy now to avoid an inflationary 6-10% increase next year on the same thing, rather than sock it away in a 3-4% HISA. That needs to be either neutralized or flipped 180.


Yup. Could, and should be higher. But we live with the CBers we have. As slow as they were off the mark, they are pushing it up now. I have a sense some of those playing the intertemporal substitution game will live to regret it. But we will see as time unfolds.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Covariance said:


> It's a great time to be a saver.


It's actually a great time to be a debtor. 10% inflation with interest rates at 5% means you're paying -5% real interest. I'd rather owe money than lend money in this environment.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> It's actually a great time to be a debtor. 10% inflation with interest rates at 5% means you're paying -5% real interest. I'd rather owe money than lend money in this environment.


This is exactly why the central banks have to keep increasing rates. Currently they are STILL flooding the world with free money (negative real interest rate). This is still loose monetary policy.

I'm increasingly thinking that inflation is going to remain high for several years. I think there is about zero chance of it coming back to 2% or 3% CPI in 2023 or 2024 and I think breakeven market rates are wrong, or possibly distorted by CB involvement in TIPS (many people forget that the Fed actually is present in the TIPS market and therefore has some effect on the breakeven rate).

My thesis is shifting towards this:

If the central banks are responsible, they will keep increasing interest rates, and we'll go much higher than anyone thinks today. Maybe a 7% BoC rate. But if they refuse to increase rates, then we get a really dysfunctional economy and very bad business conditions due to unpredictable and disastrous inflation. We might eventually end up with mass labour action (if their wages don't match inflation), such as nationwide General Strikes.

The general population may tolerate this high inflation for a year but they are going to quickly run out of patience. Economists better get their heads out of their asses soon or persistent high inflation is going to cause unrest. That could lead to more extremist politics, either far-left or far-right, which take more extreme actions.


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## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

andrewf said:


> It's actually a great time to be a debtor. 10% inflation with interest rates at 5% means you're paying -5% real interest. I'd rather owe money than lend money in this environment.


What are we buying that guarantees a return of 10% a year?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Covariance said:


> What are we buying that guarantees a return of 10% a year?


It's possible corporate earnings might be keeping up with inflation. The results are just rolling out now so we'll know in a few months.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Another lockdown will solve it no?

Former Science Table member in Ontario is calling for masks to return.


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

Hi,

I'm trying to set aside some cash for maybe 1 year, so I'm not putting it into long term savings at Questrade (RRSP, TFSA) yet, but it might end up there later. Tangerine savings rate is ridiculously low. The automation into subaccounts has been so convenient but at 1%, I think I'm holding too much there. I locked in some money into short term GICs at about 4% a little while ago when there was a promotion. I guess their 9 month GIC is still 3.75% which isn't terrible.

Also moved some over to a Meridian Credit Union savings account that I happened to already have open, getting 2%. 

I also have a BMO Investorline account and noticed that they have a "Savings Account" product, which is fully liquid, I would need 1 business day to pull my money out, and they offer 2.9%.

Is this typical of other bank brokerages, that they offer a Savings Account product like this that offers a much higher rate? I mean, 2.9 is lower than 3.75 but it's also much more liquid.

Where do you all hold cash? I feel like I'm getting hosed at Tangerine.

Thanks


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Covariance said:


> What are we buying that guarantees a return of 10% a year?


No guarantees in life, but real assets will tend to keep up with inflation.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

There are a number of threads if you do a bit of a search that provide you with a lot of information. The thread subject titles are pretty obvious.

One example: Is anyone making use of an (H)ISA in their brokerage...


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

Merged with existing thread


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

Sounds good, thanks for the nudge.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

digitalatlas said:


> ... I also have a BMO Investorline account and noticed that they have a "Savings Account" product, which is fully liquid, I would need 1 business day to pull my money out, and they offer 2.9%.
> 
> Is this typical of other bank brokerages, that they offer a Savings Account product like this that offers a much higher rate? I mean, 2.9 is lower than 3.75 but it's also much more liquid.


Over the time I have been aware of them, it has varied between a much better rate to a worse rate and back to a better rate.




digitalatlas said:


> ... I feel like I'm getting hosed at Tangerine.


I'm in the process of moving cash that does not qualify for a promo at Simplii. It's getting a whopping 0.4% in the savings account.


Cheers


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I wrote somewhere that ISAs (brokerage savings accounts in nominee name) are a different market than HISAs which are retail offerings at a branch level directly in client's name. ISTM that ISA rates tend to track BoC overnight rates more or less so as the BoC rate goes up or down, so do the ISA rates. It was not that long ago that ISA rates were 0.2-0.25%. 

HISA rates on the other hand compete more or less in a retail market, now far more digital than they used to be....and cover the gamut of the financial institutions from credit unions to digital banks. They compete with each other for deposits as needed to fund their lending book, probably for variable rate mortgages, demand loans and the like. 

There isn't a lot of interlap between these markets other than from savvy investors like ourselves who are just as comfortable in the brokerage market as in the retail market. I doubt we, in aggregate, are big enough to influence the interconnection between the two markets. 

Never mind that there are also a number of Cash ETFs that also compete with the brokerage ISAs for our attention.I think we just need to be aware of the multitude of options available to the savvy DIYer and make our individual choices as we see is best for us. It is not always just about current interest rate being offered.


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## digitalatlas (Jun 6, 2015)

AltaRed said:


> I wrote somewhere that ISAs (brokerage savings accounts in nominee name) are a different market than HISAs which are retail offerings at a branch level directly in client's name. ISTM that ISA rates tend to track BoC overnight rates more or less so as the BoC rate goes up or down, so do the ISA rates. It was not that long ago that ISA rates were 0.2-0.25%.


That makes sense and thanks for the differentiation. I was reading up on it in the High Interest Savings forums. I knew it existed and had parked some money there before, but didn't really know what the difference was.

I opened up a TD DI account last night...though I assume they send me some login directions after a couple days for ID verification, because I can't access it yet...? Anyway, most of my registered accounts are with Questrade and have BMO for a different purpose, but there's some buffer I needed at my primary bank with TD, and their regular savings rate is terrible. It's accumulated to a point where, while I need some liquidity, I also don't like leaving it in their retail chequing or savings accounts. I don't love opening more accounts, but at least I assume this makes it easier to move around....moving between BMO Investorline/Checking is pretty easy, so I'm hoping TD DI is ok too.

I looked at Horizons and CI for purchase at Questrade. I don't know if I'm looking at this right: Exchange traded funds. The return looks terrible, but is that because it's the last 12 months, during which indeed the ISA rates were very low, 0.25% at BMO, as you suggest. So presumably this would get higher moving forward?

https://horizonsetfs.com/ETF/cash/. This looks more clear that it yields 4.29% Is that projected? Am I interpreting that right?

Don't love the commission on sale at Questrade, but maybe it could be an alternative to bond funds and the bare cash I have lying around in RRSP...


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

digitalatlas said:


> Where do you all hold cash? I feel like I'm getting hosed at Tangerine.


At TDDI the usual place to hold cash is by purchasing TDB8150. It's basically TDDI's HISA. It has a one day settlement, so it's convenient to get cash for purchasing stocks that have a T+2.

It pays 3.25% presently, but like any HISA the rate can change at any time.

There's a $100 minimum purchase, and if I remember correctly the first purchase has to be $1000. 

You'll find that when buying and selling it, the formfill software says its a mutual fund, but that's only because TDDI uses that platform for convenience. It's just basically an HISA.

ltr


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Another lockdown will solve it no?
> 
> Former Science Table member in Ontario is calling for masks to return.


 ... you're rattling MrMatt.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

andrewf said:


> No guarantees in life, but real assets will tend to keep up with inflation.


Historically, that has been the case. Right now there is a lot of uncertainty around which real assets will hold value. I was a child the last time we had high inflation so do not know if the same uncertainty was in place. Perhaps someone who was around then can share their perspective. I have never been a goldbug but I think that does not have the same allure as it once did as a real asset. Real estate tends to follow the rate of inflation over the longer term but I think it has far outpaced its value in many markets across the globe. This may present an opportunity longer term. I think commodities will do well and some have done well early in the cycle. As you said there are no guarantees. Which real assets are expecting to keep up with inflation?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Scotia iTrade appears to be honoring my purchase of DYN6004 F class. It settles tonight.


The current rate on DYN6004 appears to be *4.25%*

Planning to buy some this week within my "bond portfolio". What an amazing rate. TDB8150 at 3.80% is also pretty good.

@AltaRed do you know if this falls under Bank of Nova Scotia for CDIC tally purposes?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

DYN6004 is part of Scotiabank. DYN5004 would be different CDIC insurance (Nova Scotia Trust Company).

I am not the least bit interested (concerned) about CDIC at the big 5.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> DYN6004 is part of Scotiabank. DYN5004 would be different CDIC insurance (Nova Scotia Trust Company).


Thanks. I just wanted to figure out which issuer name it fell under. But as you point out, this is a very minor concern for any big bank.

Do you know if DYN6004 has any early redemption penalties if cashed out within 30/60 days etc?

4.25% on cash is amazing.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

No early redemption fees that I have come across when bought/sold at iTrade.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> No early redemption fees that I have come across when bought/sold at iTrade.


Great to hear, thanks.


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