# Vaccinate your kids.



## none (Jan 15, 2013)

This stuff really bothers me.

http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/07...reports-15-years-ago-tied-new-measles-upsurge


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

I have no doubt that there probably ARE a small number children that suffer horrible life changing side effects as a result of a vaccine. But the question parents should be asking themselves is: What are the chances and are the risks of not vaccinating worth it?

Where are the parents that don't let their kids wear seatbelts because every once in a while some guy gets maimed and gashed open by his seatbelt in a car wreck?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Failing to vaccinate your kids is antisocial and child abuse.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Unfortunately there is a segment of society that believe's: "well it's their choice, if they want to risk their kids it's their own business." Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Because not all vaccines are 100% effective you need to vaccinate everyone in order to achieve a herd immunity to ensure everyone is protected.

When someone doesn't vaccinate their kids their stupidity puts your own kids (and everyone) at risk. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/opinion/for-the-herds-sake-vaccinate.html?_r=0


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i had to struggle to get the kids vaccinated against smallpox

we're going to travel, i told the pediatrician
if smallpox breaks out the health authorities will immediately vaccinate all the children, he opined
hah, i said, in most countries, the health authorities don't even know where all the children are

they were vaccinated, nothing happened, now we read that smallpox has escaped from a lab & it's spreading ...


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

This is a classic case of the media giving equal voice to 2 sides of the coin and not considering that one-side has overwhelming support among the scientific community.

It is shameful and our government really needs to step up the education-side of the equation. I know many in this currently child-rearing generation that abstain and it is utterly irresponsible from a public health perspective.

Shameful.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Sampson said:


> This is a classic case of the media giving equal voice to 2 sides of the coin and not considering that one-side has overwhelming support among the scientific community.
> 
> It is shameful and our government really needs to step up the education-side of the equation. I know many in this currently child-rearing generation that abstain and it is utterly irresponsible from a public health perspective.
> 
> Shameful.



sampson reading between your lines, you seem to be suggesting that vaccinations should be given & they do have "overwhelming support among the scientific community"?

but upthread i was saying that it was the representative from the scientific community - the pediatrician himself - who was against smallpox vaccination & i had to overrule him & persuade him.

he was in a large US city, an important teaching hospital. The way i interpreted his remark that "health authorities would immediately vaccinate all the children" if smallpox reappeared on the planet was that it was just so much American jingoism, how they often seem to believe that all other countries function exactly like their own. The fact is that most of the planet does not have the public health standards of north america, europe, japan, singapore, australia.

it's years later now & smallpox has reappeared ...


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Vaccinations have gone a long way to eliminating the spread of life threatening contagious risks in the last 60 years.

If a parent had been vaccinated at a young age why wouldn't they want their kids to have the same benefit ?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Do we have a billion doses on hand to immediately vaccinate all the children in the world? That seems incredible, for a disease that is extinct in the wild.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> Vaccinations have gone a long way to eliminating the spread of life threatening contagious risks in the last 60 years.
> 
> If a parent had been vaccinated at a young age why wouldn't they want their kids to have the same benefit ?


Freeloading. Through herd immunity, you gain the major part of the benefits from vaccination without taking on the small personal risk from the vaccine.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

@ pie,

Unfortunately, medical doctors are not exactly the 'scientific community'.

Some doctors certainly keep up with current biomedical research, and some are even involved in it themselves, unfortunately, many do not follow the breadth of research in the literature and can be biased after reading the forged data from Andrew Wakefield for example.

Each vaccine is prepared different and has different properties. It would be impossible to say 'all vaccines this or that'.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Also, all scientists are not created equal. There was a geologist on Garth's blog spouting off the other day about how global warming is fake fake fake and geologist of course know this. Of course, geologist know very little about climate - why would they? Anyway, the Geological society of America fully agrees that global warming exists and is mostly caused by human activity: http://www.geosociety.org/positions/position10.htm

Just because someone has some scientific background it doesn't mean that they have a worthwhile expert opinion on all things science.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

@ none, also not all ex-MP, self-proclaimed financial expert bloggers are created equal 

I think this is a topic where personal freedoms vs. common good must be considered.

Example: 2nd hand smoke, now prohibited in most public areas in mosts municipalities. Why? because it endangers lives. Having weak herd immunity is the easiest way for these things to take hold again.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

^ that's what I was saying. If my son got a communicable disease because of some ant-science religious douchebag couldn't be bothered to vaccinate their kid I would either take them to court for negligence and barring that dish out a little community level justice with a baseball bat.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

> Canada doesn’t even have a national vaccination registry, so no one is really sure which children have been vaccinated against which diseases. While it seems likely there are communities or neighbourhoods where clusters of unvaccinated children are like dry tinder waiting for a flying ember to ignite an outbreak – someone arriving back from abroad with measles, say – often public health officials can only really guess at where they are..


What all do they vaccinate Canadian kids for anyways? What about adults? I have to refresh them constantly.. Polio, Yellow Fever, Measels/Mumps/Rubella, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Hep A/B, Encephalitis, Meningitis, Typhoid, Tuberculin... No Smallpox on my checklist it seems


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

you can find that info here: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/iyc-vve/is-cv-eng.php

I was surprised to learn that they recommend getting influenza immunization each year. This is going to make my kid unhappy.

useful tool - good job Canadian government.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

none said:


> useful tool - good job Canadian government.


So only kids get vaccines then? Isn't everyone is supposed to get influenza every year.. it only lasts for 1 year. They all run out actually (except maybe ones like Hepatitis?)


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## ChrisR (Jul 13, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> it's years later now & smallpox has reappeared ...


Smallpox has *not* reappeared. The last natural case occurred in 1977 and the last lab acquired infection occurred in 1978.

Your pediatrician didn't want to immunize your child against smallpox because there are risks associated with vaccination: 1 in 1000 people who receive the smallpox vaccine have adverse reactions requiring medical attention, and between 14 and 52 in 1,000,000 suffer life threatening illness. Additionally, as the smallpox vaccine includes a live virus (the vaccinia virus, not the smallpox virus), there is a chance that it can spread to immunocompromised people and make them sick. Health-care professionals are taught to weigh the risks associated with vaccination against the benefits. In this case, as the chance of acquiring smallpox is basically nil, the risks associated with vaccination simply outweigh any perceived benefit to be gained by vaccination. 

I have also requested a vaccine and been refused. I tried to get a pneumococcal pneumonia shot the last time I was getting a flu shot, but they turned me down because I'm under 60. Next time, I'll play it smart and tell them I'm a smoker and an alcoholic!


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

OH MY

We have all benefited from medical technology why would we deny our kids what we have learned?

Nothing is perfect if your kid needed heart surgery would you say no ?

Vaccination just seems so easy an ounce of prevention seems well spent.


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## ChrisR (Jul 13, 2009)

m3s said:


> So only kids get vaccines then? Isn't everyone is supposed to get influenza every year.. it only lasts for 1 year. They all run out actually (except maybe ones like Hepatitis?)


To be fair, most provincial health authorities put on massive advertising campaigns every year to convince adults to come in and get a flu shot. Once you're there, they usually have other vaccines for adults available as well.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

There are immunizations not on that list. Hepatitis C, for one. I was vaccinated for red measles as there was an outbreak when I was a kid. Hepatitis A/B is a voluntary/recommended vaccination when travelling.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

none said:


> ^ that's what I was saying. If my son got a communicable disease because of some ant-science religious douchebag couldn't be bothered to vaccinate their kid I would either take them to court for negligence and barring that dish out a little community level justice with a baseball bat.


yikes, i'm hoping for a vaccination against crazy people weilding baseball bats ... 

i get every vaccination that comes down the turnpike but think it has to remain a matter of personal choice

whatever risks we incur are more than offset by the gains of not having the state dictate matters of choice and for some people conscience and even faith


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

andrewf said:


> There are immunizations not on that list. Hepatitis C


Yeah, this is a problem. It really should be included as an infant immunization, very effective vaccines available, and infants are the highest risk of becoming persistently infected, although lots of recent research shows that those previously thought to have cleared the virus actually harbour it for life.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

fatcat said:


> i get every vaccination that comes down the turnpike but think it has to remain a matter of personal choice
> 
> whatever risks we incur are more than offset by the gains of not having the state dictate matters of choice and for some people conscience and even faith


If it was a personal choice I would agree but it's not - someone not immunizing affects others. Many places have laws that children must be immunized to attend school or camps etc. Good thing too. This is an issue where laws are necessary to curb a (stupid) personal choice that negatively affects others.

Should kindergarden teachers be able to smoke in the classroom?


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

none said:


> Should kindergarden teachers be able to smoke in the classroom?


sure, as long they exhale out an open window, it sets a good example ...

your neighbors and fellow citizens do all kinds of things that endanger you ... they make all kinds of stupid choices that endanger you ... 

i remember when i had a bleeding ulcer 40 years ago and my doctor told me to drink milk ... of course, he was completely wrong

i worry more about the state and zealots like you than i do about the un-vaccinated and as i say, i line up for every damn shot they give out


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Freedom certainly is important and a foundation of our society, this is really why the government MUST do a better job. Most folks I hear of choosing not to have their kids educated do so out of ignorance, not because of any profound freedom they are fighting for.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

fatcat said:


> your neighbors and fellow citizens do all kinds of things that endanger you ... they make all kinds of stupid choices that endanger you ...
> 
> i remember when i had a bleeding ulcer 40 years ago and my doctor told me to drink milk ... of course, he was completely wrong
> 
> i worry more about the state and zealots like you than i do about the un-vaccinated and as i say, i line up for every damn shot they give out


Well if there was a habitual drunk driver in the neighbourhood that put the kids in danger and the local authorities wouldn't do anything about it I would happily join a community group to 'take care of the problem'. 

It's not l'm crazy if my kid comes home from daycare with a cold or flu, that happens - it's these easily preventable and highly dangerous diseases that people have no right t expose other people children to that i have an issue is.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Sampson said:


> Freedom certainly is important and a foundation of our society, this is really why the government MUST do a better job. Most folks I hear of choosing not to have their kids educated do so out of ignorance, not because of any profound freedom they are fighting for.


the answer, as it has been with smoking and drinking (and should be for drug abuse) while driving is public education and more public education ... but _not_ coercion by the state

even the neighborhood tough guy probably wears his seat belt and he knows that the chance he will get caught not wearing it is really slim, but he still buckles up because he has been educated and knows it is smart

none, if your kids are getting all the vaccinations available what are you worrying about ? 

presumably your kids aren't going to get what the non-vaccinated kid brings home and if he brings home something for which there is no vaccine anyway you can't hold that against him


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

fatcat said:


> none, if your kids are getting all the vaccinations available what are you worrying about ?
> 
> presumably your kids aren't going to get what the non-vaccinated kid brings home and if he brings home something for which there is no vaccine anyway you can't hold that against him


You don't know what you're talking about do you? Do you think vaccines are 100% effective? If you want to debate please do some research and come back later.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

none said:


> You don't know what you're talking about do you? Do you think vaccines are 100% effective? If you want to debate please do some research and come back later.


ok ... 

alright i'm back

we live in the same city ... not that it matters much ... everytime i turn around i have to pay out a new tax or fill out a new form or obey a new bylaw or give my personal information to some new database ... i read somewhere that average person now unknowingly commits 3 felonies a day

and you want add another law and have the state start telling us what kind of health care we must submit to or be fined and or go to jail ?

should people be allowed to contribute to global warming and resource depletion by having more than say 3 kids ? should they be forced to undergo sterilization or should it just be illegal ?

where does it end ?

i am guessing you are a proud member of the new democratic party ... have i got that right ?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

It depends for what, because children are most sucesptable to many of these diseases I think it's fair that children need to be vacinated if they are to participate in public programs and use state run institutions. If they want to go to a private school that allows it, well that is stupid, but stupid is stupid so I guess that could be a loop-hole.

Should people be allowed to have 3 kids? Well, first I think everyone has biological right for replacement so two kids are acceptable. However, I do think there are enough people so I don't think a family should get the overly generous tax/government hand outs that go with having kids. That's one reason I'm not a fan of Sazuki - you can't have 5 kids and then villainize someone for driving an SUV - it is a little more hypocrisy than I'm comfortable with.

No, I don't vote NDP (at least at the fed level). I have in the past but I really feel a lot of their ideas are lame and go beyond what government should be involved in. For example, that whole - bank card fee issue? Stupid - I haven't payed bank card fees ever in my life. Should parents of twins get double parental leave? Of course not - that's a little too much entitlement. I'll likely vote Justin next election simply from the lack of choices and by almost any measure that I think is important (long term fiscal planning which includes things such as efficient tax codes, environmental stewardship and proper incentives, the conservatives are extremely lacking.

I did vote NDP at the provincial level because I compared platforms to the greens, liberals and NDP and the first had too many vague platitudes and the last two were pretty much the same. I didn't really care who won but large majorities tend to govern poorly so I was hoping for a minority situation (which either in majority I didnt really care). ...but enough about me...


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

Ok, I can't resist.

I'm a maternal-child health care professional and I used to be a molecular biologist (just to give some background). I think vaccines are great, my kids are vaccinated. 

_However_ all vaccines are not created equal and some are significantly less important than others. Tetanus comes on quick and kills a good 10% of its victims. That's a great vaccine to have. 

Chickenpox, on the other hand, is a very straightforward disease with incredibly infrequent complications. A CDC report from 2003 (when vaccination was just getting underway) listed 8 deaths annually, HALF of which occurred in immuno-compromized patients (i.e. they had cancer or HIV or spinal cord injuries etc. before they got chickenpox), one was under the vaccination age and two were possibly immunized. So routine vaccines would prevent between 1 and 3 fatalities (per 350 million population, so less than one death in Canada). The fatal complication rate from getting vaccines is very low, but what we're finding instead is that now that we've vaccinating for chickenpox, young adults are getting shingles a lot more frequently than they used to and shingles can cause permanent neurological side effects. So why do we offer it? The primary driver is actually economic. Parents have to stay home with their kids, costing $122 million in lost productivity annually. It says that right in the Health Canada rationale for offering the vaccine. To me, even if I take my mom hat off and put my scientist hat on, something about that gives me pause.

So again, vaccines in general are good, but people are not crazy for evaluating each one on its own merits. What bothers me is when people don't have the ability to understand the topic and refuse the vaccine based on misconceptions like, 'if my child builds her immune system naturally she'll resist the disease without the vaccine'. Um, no. No she won't. She'll get the disease and if it doesn't kill her, _then_ she'll resist it the next time around.

Also, the article that kicked this thread off is quite scientifically unbalanced. It doesn't surprise me at all that Britain had an upsurge of cases in 2012. Vancouver had a whole bunch of measles in 2010. The Olympics bring a lot of unvaccinated people from places that still have a lot of measles. So if those numbers are still that high next year, then there's a story.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

KrissyFair said:


> The fatal complication rate from getting vaccines is very low, but what we're finding instead is that now that we've vaccinating for chickenpox, young adults are getting shingles a lot more frequently than they used to and shingles can cause permanent neurological side effects. So why do we offer it? The primary driver is actually economic. Parents have to stay home with their kids, costing $122 million in lost productivity annually. It says that right in the Health Canada rationale for offering the vaccine. To me, even if I take my mom hat off and put my scientist hat on, something about that gives me pause.


Nice post. However, the fact that a primary driver for a vaccine is "economic" is actually fairly compelling to me, given the facts (as I know them). At my kids' daycare, if I recall correctly, a chicken pox diagnosis lead to an exclusion of 22 calendar days - that's three weeks of daycare costs + lost wages (or foregone vacation) for mom/dad. If there is an outbreak at the daycare, potentially many many families are affected (if the kids were not vaccinated). 

What's the relationship between vaccination for CP and shingles?


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

And I totally get that MGal. So as a parent that would be a great reason to choose to vaccinate, just as a scientist I don't think it should be the basis of a broad public health recommendation that everyone get vaccinated.

The shingles thing is interesting. Shingles is just a different presentation of chickenpox that happens in adults. So back when none of us were vaccinated we'd all get chickenpox as kids and be immune. Eventually the immunity wears off, but since the disease keeps going around we get frequent re-exposures (without getting sick) which basically acts like booster shots. So most of us never break out in shingles. Fast forward to now, kids get a single shot. Eventually the immunity wears off, but since your neighbours aren't coming down with chickenpox b/c they also got the shot, you never get the booster effect. Thus, shingles. Now they're starting to recommend booster shots for old people. So in this case one vaccine begets another and I can totally see why that would make some parents nervous.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

(On phone) standard recommendation in ON is initial vacc + booster for CP


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

In fact, if I had to give a rundown:

Diptheria - yay!
Tetanus - woohoo!
Polio - woohoo!
MMR - yay!
Pertussis - yup
mengicoccal - yup
hepatitis - yup (NOT at birth like they do it in the US though, that's just ridiculous)


CP - meh
pneumococcal - if they could get the darn thing right then sure, but it seems they can't so meh to this one too
rotavirus - formula-fed babies yes, but protection of breastfeeding would help more babies than the vaccine


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

Oh, and that last line was in NO way a comment about how people feed their kids, just a consideration of the biological mechanism of the disease.


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

MoneyGal said:


> (On phone) standard recommendation in ON is initial vacc + booster for CP



Good to know, last I checked the booster wasn't a universal rec.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

The problem KrissyF is that the thimersol-autism faked link had an enormous effect on mis-educating - and as always, one polar view has much more impact that the moderate stance usually taken by scientists.

You do make an excellent post and each vaccine (not only against different pathogens, but different vaccine formulations released by different companies needs to be evaluated objectively also) must be analyzed for risk-reward.

I fully disagree with your view on hepatitis. The vaccines are low risk and extremely effective - and if you look at both global distribution of hepatitis carriers and migration patterns to Canada, this can easily become a problem.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

There was a comment up link about vaccinating for Hepatitis C. There is no vaccine currently available outside of studies for Hepatitis C. 

There are other considerations for Varicella zoster virus (VZV) which is the chicken pox/shingles virus which is of the herpes virus family - an initial potentially really annoying first episode followed by recurrences at varying intervals/intensity in a subgroup of the infected who harbour the virus for life. VZV tends to be a 'relatively mild' childhood disease in temperate climate zones (although WHO estimates 100 deaths per year in the US) but it is more a disease of adults in the tropics and subtropics. It is also a very bad disease to be exposed to in pregnancy - both because of risk of harm to the fetus and because infections can be quite severe in pregnant women. Certainly, any woman of childbearing age who is susceptible to VZV (either because she has not had chicken pox, has not been vaccinated, or came from the tropics) should be vaccinated. 

I'm not sure that any upswing in shingles cases, if indeed there has been an increase independent of other factors, has been linked to the use of Varicella vaccine. A quick search reveals that most authoritative resources suggest not but we do call the internet 'the dis-Information superhighway' for a reason.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

none said:


> you can find that info here: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/iyc-vve/is-cv-eng.php
> 
> I was surprised to learn that they recommend getting influenza immunization each year. This is going to make my kid unhappy.
> 
> useful tool - good job Canadian government.


I did like this site. Sadly, it wouldn't work when I put in my birthdate! :hopelessness:

And yes we are all supposed to continue getting immunized!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

uptoolate said:


> And yes we are all supposed to continue getting immunized!


How many adults do you think keep up with their immunizations though? I've had 2 or 3 of each in the past 10 years, which means I'm getting something every year. I'm guessing most adults bother, so the herd immunization is probably bunk. When H1N1 was big news the herd lined up and got immunized before we all died of swine flu. It's probably unnecessary to immunize everyone for everything unless they are traveling or there is an outbreak. Even the flu vaccine is just a guess, like forecasting the weather


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Flu vaccination is for vectors of disease (children) & to some extent for vulnerable populations (elderly)


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

True m3s. Not enough that's for sure. 

The term herd immunity can be a bit misleading at times. One immunization that people shouldn't skip is Tetanus. We don't get this from other people (unless you get bit on a regular basis), we get it from living! C. tetani spores are everywhere just waiting to get into a little abrasion or cut. Be afraid, be very afraid!!


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

Sampson said:


> The problem KrissyF is that the thimersol-autism faked link had an enormous effect on mis-educating - and as always, one polar view has much more impact that the moderate stance usually taken by scientists.


And I understand the desire to fight fire with fire with the type of article that was quoted, but the article makes the exact same logical error that the Wakefield studies made - namely that the uptick happened after the anti-MMR protests, therefore the uptick must be caused by the protests. It's flawed. It might be effective, but I'm an equal opportunity logic critic so I still don't like it 

On the Hep B, I should maybe elaborate. In Canada immunizing a 0 day old baby against a primarily sexually transmitted disease is highly unnecessary. In the US they do it to prevent mom-to-baby transmission because a) they don't offer free vaccines to mom when she's growing up like we do and b) they don't offer free routine immunity screening to pregnant women like we do c) baby may never see a doctor again so it might be the only chance. Given those differences I think it's more than reasonable to push it back to say kindergarten age. Currently, by the way we do it in grade 7 which I actually think is naively late.

@uptoolate really great points about Varicella. Like I said, it's beneficial for sure I was just pointing out that it's not as crucial and clear cut as some of the others.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

KrissyFair said:


> And I understand the desire to fight fire with fire with the type of article that was quoted, but the article makes the exact same logical error that the Wakefield studies made - namely that the uptick happened after the anti-MMR protests, therefore the uptick must be caused by the protests. It's flawed. It might be effective, but I'm an equal opportunity logic critic so I still don't like it


You've got to be kidding - you are really stretching way overboard here. You're putting this article on the same (extreme low) bar as the Wakefield study? Without going into the guts of it all, the lion's share issue with the wakefield study was largely fraud. Poor experimental design accompanied with fraud is really the issue many people have it. Further, the celebrity drunk wakefield extrapolated his finding ridiculous levels. If one extrapolates how many people have died (not a ton - yet) but also how much money was wasted on the trash research it is truly tragic.

Also, how the Lancet stood by it for more than a decade was reprehensible and unfortunately those 'not in the know' don't know the Lancet is a bit of a rag anyway.

i think your issue is with the 'causation doesn't mean causation'. This is true but it can be taken a little too far. If you have supporting evidence that implies a causal mechanism that can be satisfactory is coming to a scientifically defensible conclusion - Occam's razor and all - measles vaccine dropped in use and measles infections shot up in an expected lag time. Seems sensible to me.

Here is a decent summary which hopefully will clarify a few issues: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/05/22/the-legacy-of-andrew-wakefield-continues/


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, I misspoke: Hep B is what students are routinely vaccinated for (in Ontario at least).


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

@none You're right, it would be incorrect to compare research methods with data interpretation, which is I didn't do that. I compared interpretation to interpretation. But no matter how crummy Wakefield's methodology, there is still an onus on future participants in the discussion to not misrepresent the information the other way, which this article unfortunately does.

For starters, it links a 14% drop in vaccine rates in 1998 with a 1000% increase in disease in 2012 (over 2011). Basic deduction says there's at least one missing variable there and fairness requires we acknowledge its existence even if we don't know what it is exactly.

Secondly it says the bulk of infections were in people "10 to 18 years old who went unvaccinated during the autism scare" but hang on, if you do the math kids 16 and over reached vaccine age _before_ the scare so their parents' decision was independent.

So again, as a healthcare professional I want people to vaccinate their kids. But it's their right, and my responsibility, to make sure they use good information to make the decision.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

uptoolate said:


> I'm not sure that any upswing in shingles cases, .


A relative with an auto-immune illness got Shingles - and it IS a nasty virus. Her bout with shingles had her nearly bed-ridden and in considerable pain for a few months! The nerve in her face was attacked, and her vision in one eye is still not fully recovered (Dr. says is probably won't!) - 
Very painful condition.
If anyone has an auto-immune illness, or has immune system problems, I would suggest they get the shingles vaccine. Most dr's agree. I think it costs around $100.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I vaccinated my child, but I do NOT like that the doctors at the hospitals I have, and do, work at do not vaccinate their children. That tells me much more than any news article ever could.


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## cheech10 (Dec 31, 2010)

Not all doctors are well versed on the vaccination literature. Pediatricians and Family MDs are most involved in vaccination; I think you'd be hard pressed to find many that oppose vaccination.

For what it's worth, I'm a physician with an immunology background, and my wife holds a PhD in immunology; we are both wholeheartedly in favour of vaccination for ourselves and our child.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

cheech10 said:


> Not all doctors are well versed on the vaccination literature. Pediatricians and Family MDs are most involved in vaccination;* I think you'd be hard pressed to find many that oppose vaccination.
> *
> For what it's worth, I'm a physician with an immunology background, and my wife holds a PhD in immunology; we are both wholeheartedly in favour of vaccination for ourselves and our child.


Would you actually find ANY that are outright opposed to vaccination? The CHC where I volunteered for many years takes what they call a client-centered approach to vaccination, i.e., they will inform but not require vaccination. I have heard tell of other offices where vaccination is required to stay on the patient list.


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## cheech10 (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't know of any. There might be a few that don't pursue vaccination for themselves/family members, but they would be the minority.


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