# [email protected] BLOCK costly mistake



## wolf (Feb 2, 2016)

I was expecting to get a $2700.00 tax return. It seems that [email protected] BLOCK made a mistake last year (2014) and this year (2015).
The result is I got a Canada Revenue bill for $4100.00.
They admitted their mistake and have agreed to pay back the fees for 2015 and 2014. They also will give me $265.00 the Government tacked on for interest.

Also do you know interest starts immediatly not after you receive the bill.

I am PO'd

Your thoughts please!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

wolf said:


> I was expecting to get a $2700.00 tax return. It seems that [email protected] BLOCK made a mistake last year (2014) and this year (2015).
> The result is I got a Canada Revenue bill for $4100.00.
> They admitted their mistake and have agreed to pay back the fees for 2015 and 2014. They also will give me $265.00 the Government tacked on for interest.
> 
> ...


 H & R Block have become rippoff artists, IMO. I have never used them and never will. I do my own taxes every year for the last upteemth years.
All you need is a calculator and last year copy of the return you filed. The line numbers on the forms don't change that much from year to year,

so all you need is to put in the new nuimbers for the Federal Sched 1, add the non-refundable tax credits...do the same for the Ontario and
multiply by your effective tax rate...that's pretty much it. 

If you make a honest mistake,CRA will correct it in your assessment.
It's not rocket science...and H&R Block have a lot of nerve charging a percentage of your refund.


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## wolf (Feb 2, 2016)

Not sure what you mean by HR charging a percentage of the refund? Where did you get that info?

My tax returns are quite complex and prefer to have them done. I am not sure what happened in the last two years but I have had the same person do them for the last 15 with no problem. Now this, it's not that I can't afford to pay the bill. Which I paid a few hours after I received.

It is the principal!


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

The fact that you owed money instead of getting a refund is an issue that you are totally responsible for. The anger, I imagine, probably comes from the fact that they told you the wrong information instead of the right information...and that wrong information had a $6,800 difference. From what you said, they waived their fees for their work and advice, since it obviously was worthless and they made you whole by paying the extra interest that CRA charged.

My best advice would be to take a couple of tequila shots to deal with the anger issue and forget about it. 

Yes, I did know that they charge you interest from the time you actually owe them the money, not from the time they find out that you owed them money. If they didn't, a lot of these types of temporary errors would start to develop from the numerous people who might find themselves a little strapped for cash, at tax time, and are looking for a free way to delay payment. A bank would do the same thing.

Anyway try the tequila shots. It can do miracles with these issues. lol.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

wolf said:


> Not sure what you mean by HR charging a percentage of the refund?
> Where did you get that info?


IK've heard it from those that had their tax returns done by H&R....
.
and this



> I pad $400 last year at H&R Block....its *based on what your income is and what amount your return is*.....take the other guys advice....do it yourself or find a local accountant.


My tax returns are quite complex and prefer to have them done. I am not sure what happened in the last two years but I have had the same person do them for the last 15 with no problem. *Now this, it's not that I can't afford to pay the bill. *Which I paid a few hours after I received.


> It is the principal!


Then why are you complaining here on this forum?


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## wolf (Feb 2, 2016)

Oh Hell I don't need Tequila.
What I'm mad about is for a company like HR block to make a mistake like that is absolutely crazy.

I paid the $4100 an hour after I got the bill. No big deal!
Pay me now or pay me later.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

I've decided that paying $400 for someone to do my taxes is worth it. Peace of mind is a wonderful thing. Plus 11K refund! Woot!


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## wolf (Feb 2, 2016)

Ok So some of you think I am complaining.

So here is the deal.
I thought this forum was to exchange information and pass on things of interest or warn about things that people should be aware of.
Seems it is not the case.

Can you imagine somebody expecting $3000.00 back and getting a bill for $4600.00.
Like
Bubba who went out and bought the new rifle for dear season.
Or Granny who bought tickets to take the grand kids on holidays.
Can you imagine it?
I just thought people would take the info and learn from it.

About me!
I retired after 28 year career in 2000. Not bad eh! At 49 years old I had money in the bank and still have a few Hundred Grand going on 65.

I see a lot of money experts on this forum that give great advise.

All I really wanted to do is pass on how a big company like HR Block can make mistakes!

I will go back to lurking instead of participating!


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Anyone can make a mistake. I've heard that H&R Block hires get minimal training and are paid minimum wage. You can hardly expect top level insights from their agents. 

Many years ago I had a Big Five accounting firm make a similar mistake with my taxes. I was paying a lot for their service. I got hit with a penalty. The accountants insisted that they were correct, and Revenue Canada said "no, you're wrong". So the accounting firm agreed to compensate me for the penalty. The following year, I chose a new accountant, whose service was excellent. 

Which goes to show that not even prestigious accounting firms are immune from error. They farm a lot of the work out to their interns. 

Tequila time. Cheers!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

wolf said:


> Ok So some of you think I am complaining.
> 
> So here is the deal.
> I thought this forum was to exchange information and pass on things of interest or warn about things that people should be aware of.
> ...


I think your exact words were:


> I am PO'd
> 
> Your thoughts please!


Even the title of this thread includes "costly mistake". What did you expect for responses? IOW, not sure why you are now upset at the responses?


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## Tetsujin (Mar 17, 2016)

wolf said:


> I was expecting to get a $2700.00 tax return. It seems that [email protected] BLOCK made a mistake last year (2014) and this year (2015).
> The result is I got a Canada Revenue bill for $4100.00.
> They admitted their mistake and have agreed to pay back the fees for 2015 and 2014. They also will give me $265.00 the Government tacked on for interest.
> 
> ...



As far I can see, H&R Block is just marketing and your post confirm it. The style of the product is very responsive and clean. 

I've been using ImpôtExpert for the last 3 years and I had no problem at all. This is not an ad, you can test many tax income software on line.

My first experience with these kind of software was ImpôtRapide. It is very simple and my colleagues are very happy with that. I had a special situation because my wife didn't live in Canada, she was being sponsored, but we were already married. So, there were many questions about her status that I couldn't find easily in ImpôtRapide. I tried to delete my declaration and start from scracth... IMPOSIBLE. I was not able to delete my tax income. The on-line software is was very closed.... "For blind dummies", not for people who have special cases like me.

Then, I tried the ImpôtExpert which its UI is not so nice, but it doesn't matter if it's functional. It is true that you need to read a little bit more about the option in the software and all the details about any input field are so basic but at least it redirects you to the Government page to find more details. What I like of this software is its clean menu on the left and all the input fields are numbered according to the paper tax income. I found it more flexible and I could filled out my specific case.

Finally, I think my situation became easier to declare right now. So I was thinking to use another tax software. I signed up in H&R Block, then I filled out everything and finally I was surprised that my wife needed to pay 650$ and I don't know why if she doesn't work at all. According to H&R Block's web site, ImpôtExpert is its competitor in number of rules to apply credits and deductions maximizing your tax return. With ImpôtExpert I was required to pay $100 to Government while with H&R Block I need to pay 2500$. So I forgot H&R Block for sure. I don't know if ImpôrtExpert is accurate, but I had no problem at all until now. What I like from H&R Block are the details about any input field with a well-explained Q&A. So you can use it as a source of complementary info.

So, I wouldn't trust H&R Block anymore. The following text below is the email that I received from them after signing up. I mark it in blue, and no it's not an error of input, seriously:


><><><><><><><><>''<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><&><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>'éé&'à<><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><><><>é<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>éé<><>''<><><><>é<><><><><><>éé<><><><><><><>éàééé'ô<><>''é<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>àé<><><>à<><>à'ûéà'é<><>à&é''<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>'&<><><><><><><>àè<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><


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## modul (Mar 3, 2016)

wolf said:


> Ok So some of you think I am complaining.
> 
> So here is the deal.
> I thought this forum was to exchange information and pass on things of interest or warn about things that people should be aware of.
> ...


your thread is appreciated and it reaffirmed to me my decision to do my own returns, just because they are a tax preparation company is no guarantee that they will do it correctly or not make mistakes.... I am finding StudioTax to be a great tool and I am able to understand exactly what is happening, and by doing some reading I am able to do things correctly and not leave it in the hands of a third party. I know of a friend that had troubles with CRA that was using an accountant that made some mistakes that took some doing to fix, and also I talked to an accountant briefly about my case and was concerned about some of the casualness that they had in taking some deductions that seemed a little too aggressive for my liking. 

Most of this stuff is not all that hard to understand, and they are making it even easier to do it properly as the years go by (I was working on returns for the last decade and can see the evolution in the forms to where they now guide you in the right direction mostly when before it was not as broken down step by step) 

StudioTax software is really amazing for a free product, and I had a question for support on an older version and was extremely pleasantly surprised to get a fast response from them that was actually very thoughtful and useful! Most companies seem to send out form letters that are useless, StudioTax is top notch... I will donate to them when I am all finished, they are saints in providing this software for us at no charge


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think there are two issues with the tax preparation companies like H&R Block. One that has already been stated is the preparers are inadequately trained AND they rush too fast through them in order to maximize their personal revenue. The second is likely incomplete and/or disorganized and/or mistinterpreted information from the client, or at least a misunderstanding between preparer and client. When I was an ex-pat and had the best cross-border tax specialists from the biggest firms available to me, the tax preparation booklet I filled out was comprehensive. That was followed up after submission with a phone call on a variety of questions. That degree of detail and time is simply not going to happen with storefront preparers. IOW, you often get what you pay for.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Unfortunately you always have to be 100% in tune with your own tax returns.

I'm currently paying an expert for tax preparation, but what I'm really paying for is their eyeballs to double check everything, and for them to put their name on the return ... an extra safety.

Although it costs me time & money, I still look over everything on the return myself. I'm basically doing the entire complex dual-country tax return, and THEN paying the expert to re-do it. There's no way around this. The individual tax payer is always responsible for the end result. Accountants frequently make mistakes, I've heard so many stories.


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## Rebecca (Aug 10, 2014)

I believe that I read something (on this board maybe?) a couple of years ago, saying that mistakes are made on 60% of returns filed by professionals on behalf of clients, but only on 40% of returns filed by the taxpayer themselves.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Rebecca said:


> I believe that I read something (on this board maybe?) a couple of years ago, saying that mistakes are made on 60% of returns filed by professionals on behalf of clients, but only on 40% of returns filed by the taxpayer themselves.


Depends on who is included in the category called professional. Few paid tax preparers are truly degreed accounting professionals.


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## hopetindall (Feb 14, 2016)

wolf said:


> Not sure what you mean by HR charging a percentage of the refund? Where did you get that info?
> 
> My tax returns are quite complex and prefer to have them done. I am not sure what happened in the last two years but I have had the same person do them for the last 15 with no problem. Now this, it's not that I can't afford to pay the bill. Which I paid a few hours after I received.
> 
> It is the principal!



I think you mean 'principle'


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## NorthKC (Apr 1, 2013)

That's why we call them H&R "Blockheads". Minimal training and poor supervision. Mind you, there is the odd tax prep firm that definitely goes out of their way to ensure that training is top-notch and provide superior service but they are very hard to find.

I always tell people that if return is simple, do it yourself and you'll save yourself more money that way.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

I think I know where the idea of paying H&R Block a percentage of refund comes from. Twenty-five years ago, as a student, I had them do my taxes, AND give me the refund in ADVANCE. I was charged a percentage of the refund, plus the prep fee, for this advance option. Theses days, with electronic filing and direct deposit for refunds, that idea seems silly.

While I prepare my husband and kids' tax returns, I do have a local accounting office complete a couple of rental schedules from our books for peace of mind, and their name on them. They charge $50 per schedule. Works for me to have someone double check everything. I also have them prepare my elderly father's returns, at about $100 each year. Last year we were finally able to have a doctor declare his nursing home fees as necessary as a disability. Without charge, the accountant went back through three years of returns to claim that credit for him, resulting in several thousands of dollars in refund and interest. They really didn't need to do that without charge, but they did.


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## Tetsujin (Mar 17, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Unfortunately you always have to be 100% in tune with your own tax returns.
> 
> I'm currently paying an expert for tax preparation, but what I'm really paying for is their eyeballs to double check everything, and for them to put their name on the return ... an extra safety.
> 
> Although it costs me time & money, I still look over everything on the return myself. I'm basically doing the entire complex dual-country tax return, and THEN paying the expert to re-do it. There's no way around this. The individual tax payer is always responsible for the end result. Accountants frequently make mistakes, I've heard so many stories.


Good strategy! In fact I don't rely so much on accountants because some friends told me they were asked for 30$ or 60$ and I thought that it was a good business. Later these accountants revised my friends' documents and they changed their mind asking for 150$ and 250$. Even they couldn't get you any tax return. 

These accountants take advantage of you, but it's true that these are doing freelance. I don't know how much can cost an accountant from an accounting firm. james4beach it would be great if you can share your accountant contact info (assuming that is trustful and ethical). Can you send me a price reference by private message? Thx.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I had to hire someone with designations for both Canada and US preparation, so they're dual country experts (I hope). It's over $200/hour so you wouldn't want to go with them unless you absolutely have to


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## Joe Black (Aug 3, 2015)

For the fun of it (I don't actually plan to give these part-time amateurs my taxes!) I asked what they charge. If you don't get a refund they charge a flat fee of $80. If you have a refund, they charge 15% on the first $500 refund, then 5% on any remaining refund.

If you have simple taxes, just do them yourself. If you have complicated taxes, get an actual professional accountant.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Rebecca said:


> I believe that I read something (on this board maybe?) a couple of years ago, saying that *mistakes are made on 60% of returns filed by professionals on behalf of clients*, but *only on 40% of returns filed by the taxpayer themselves*.


Interesting statistic....and you pay them a fee for completing your return. 

So, either their tax software is not calxculating the numbers correctly
or
they are poorly trained college students hired by H&R at tax crunch time
or
the clients paper work(receipts, slips) is not organized properly
or 
their system of filling out the paperwork is not in the proper sequence
or
they rush to finish it up a soon a possible and not double check the return


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Joe Black said:


> For the fun of it (I don't actually plan to give these part-time amateurs my taxes!) I asked what they charge. If you don't get a refund they charge a flat fee of $80. If you have a refund, they charge 15% on the first $500 refund,


$75.......then 5% on any remaining refund.

Lets assume it is a substantial refund..$2500...so on the remaining $2000 they charge you $100....that's $175 changed on the total refund...
oh but they cut you a check for the balance...so it you don't want to wait till the gov't gives you the refund...

H&R are starting to sound like Money Mart..
"$300 for $20" (The APR on a $300.00 loan for 14 days is *599.64% on a rate of $23.00 per $100.00 *borrowed.]


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

I remember when my wife's friend who had just finished high school and did so poorly that she couldn't get a job anywhere else, was able to get a job at H&R block doing people's taxes with little supervision. That was the point I realized I would never go there. 

These are not tax professionals, don't go there!


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## Nerd Investor (Nov 3, 2015)

As a professional accountant; please don't lump H&R Block in with us! :biggrin:


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## dadaswell (Jan 6, 2016)

CalgaryPotato said:


> I remember when my wife's friend who had just finished high school and did so poorly that she couldn't get a job anywhere else, was able to get a job at H&R block doing people's taxes with little supervision. That was the point I realized I would never go there.
> 
> These are not tax professionals, don't go there!


Yepppp....I had a friend in first year university (lonnggggggggg time ago) who was hired by HR Block to do tax returns at tax time. She had no idea what she was doing...admitted that to me...but not to the customers......Ugh.

On that note...just found out my parents have been using them for about 15 years now....not good....I'm meeting with my mom's HR Block "accountant" when she does her taxes this year....going to ask him what his qualifications are!!


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## lost in space (Aug 31, 2015)

AltaRed said:


> I think there are two issues with the tax preparation companies like H&R Block. One that has already been stated is the preparers are inadequately trained AND they rush too fast through them in order to maximize their personal revenue. The second is likely incomplete and/or disorganized and/or mistinterpreted information from the client, or at least a misunderstanding between preparer and client. When I was an ex-pat and had the best cross-border tax specialists from the biggest firms available to me, the tax preparation booklet I filled out was comprehensive. That was followed up after submission with a phone call on a variety of questions. That degree of detail and time is simply not going to happen with storefront preparers. IOW, you often get what you pay for.



This is exactly what I do, I live in Germany and I go with an accountant (Steuerbreater in German) rather than the H&R equivalent. Secondly even thought I don't speak the language that good I spend a lot of time researching and understanding how the German tax system works. More importantly is I always review the return. I noticed a few things asked them to adjust the return and went from owing 1700€ to getting a small return. 

If the OP return is that complicated I'm surprised he went with H&R rather than a proper accountant.


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## getliquid (Mar 2, 2014)

how hard is it to enter couple of numbers on an online software and just netfile it... I assume the people that uses H&R block would only have a T4 slip...


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

carverman said:


> IK've heard it from those that had their tax returns done by H&R....


I have heard of problems with tax returns but they have usually been flat fee.

Perhaps the % comments are from the "get the refund today" service that pays out the refund before CRA pays? This is the tax service that I have heard of % fees being used.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

wolf said:


> What I'm mad about is for a company like HR block to make a mistake like that is absolutely crazy...


Where humans are involved ... YMMV.

Is it any crazier than a surgeon cutting off the wrong leg?
Or the auto mechanic who while changing the oil, set the leased pick up truck on fire?
(The crazy part to me was the service manager who explained the delay then expected payment for the oil change!)

Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

wolf said:


> Ok So some of you think I am complaining.
> 
> So here is the deal.
> I thought this forum was to exchange information and pass on things of interest or warn about things that people should be aware of....
> ...


Then I would suggest writing more along the lines of "bad experience, avoid company X".


Asking for comments implies all related comments are welcome.


Personally I avoid tax places like this as I view it as me doing 60% or more of the work by gathering the slips. If I need special help, I would go with an accountant.


Cheers


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