# Elder abuse as POA



## DayTek (Sep 26, 2013)

Sorry this is long, but here’s the situation:

My husband’s Grandmother went into a nursing home about 1.5 years ago after suffering a stroke. Grandma recovered well from the stoke, but not to the extent that she could be physically independent. She is very much in sound mind. After Grandpa passed in 2010, she began living with her youngest daughter, who helped her keep house, grocery shop and keep her company – Her strongest relationship is with her youngest. She has 6 children – 4 girls and 2 boys. When making wills and POA’s, Grandma and Grandpa decided to make the one son executor and one POA. 

The son who is POA has been very controlling of her finances since Grandma went into the home. After Grandma went into the home, she let the daughter she was living with keep her car so she could visit (and she does visit the most – at least 3 or 4 times a week, while the son visits maybe monthly). Her daughter struggles financially and is on assistance, which is why the POA gets angry at Grandma for letting her still use the car. Grandma has kept insurance and maintenance on the car so her daughter can visit her, but her son sees this as being taken advantage of. 

The POA tells Grandma that she has no money to do anything, yet Grandma has shown her youngest that with her and Grandpa’s pensions, plus a good chunk of savings, she has lots of wiggle room. Grandma’s mobility suffered after the stroke, so she does require a walker or wheelchair, but she loves going out shopping and even has dreams of taking a cruise…She is 86! 

The POA has recently threatened to take away her bank card if she renews the car insurance or puts any more money into the car. One of the daughters is going to pay for the insurance, with the youngest and my mother-in-law paying her back in monthly installments. 

The POA has yelled at her at the home and over the phone about money. Grandma is scared of him. Some of the family has decided to band together to convince Grandma to sign a new POA so her son cannot do this to her any more. No one wants the POA because they are afraid the son would contest it, so they are thinking she should make the nursing home POA. I figure this option would cause the least amount of drama, rather than trying to contest the current POA or making the youngest daughter POA. Either way, when the son has his current POA revoked, he likely will not speak to Grandma or the family again, which will break Grandma’s heart, but it has to be better than what he’s doing now.

Has anyone been through a situation similar to this before? Opinions and experiences would help.

Thanks!


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

This may seem obvious, but you didn't mention it - has the family (and Grandma) talked to the POA and made him aware that retaining the car & insurance for the daughter is what she wants done with some of her money, and that this is very important to her?


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## dougboswell (Oct 25, 2010)

In Ont there are now 2 POAs - one authorizing the person to look after her medical concerns and the other to look after her financial affairs.

My first step would be to have a meeting with the home's Administrator or Executive Director and the Director of Nursing. You need to ask if any staff has witnessed this yelling , which is abuse, and if so has an incident report been written up and submitted to the Ministry of Health and Long term Care. If not why?
If the staff have not witnessed this they can be put on alert and then they have to report it.

The son sounds like a bully. It is not his money. Does he allow anyone to look at her financial statements? If not what is he trying to hide? You said that your grandmother is of sound mind. It is hers to spend as she fits whether shopping or travelling.

The family needs to talk to this son as one voice. Tell him directly that it is verbal abuse and if any of them ever witness this they will file a report with the Ministry. This is taken seriously. The Ministry will investigate and if the home witnesses it they have every right to call the police in.

My last comment is to act as one and go to a lawyer. This POA needs to be taken away from this person asap. You could have the lawyer go to the nursing home with his/her assistant and have your grandmother sign for new POAs for Health and Finance. He will determine if she is able to comprehend what she is signing. Have the Power of Finance in 2 names then there is a check on each other. You then go to the bank and get the new authorizations in place.

Good luck. Remember someone needs to stand up for the rights of your grandmother. You do not want to look back after she passes and wish you had done something.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dougboswell wrote: 


> You could have the lawyer go to the nursing home with his/her assistant and have your grandmother sign for new POAs for Health and Finance. He will determine if she is able to comprehend what she is signing. Have the Power of Finance in 2 names then there is a check on each other. You then go to the bank and get the new authorizations in place.



I don't ujnderstand why a lawyer needs to be involved here. 

*IF Grandma is considered to be of sound mind*, she can have the POA revoked without having a lawyer involved. Someone has to download the POA forms and she can name a new person as a POA, have her signature witnessed by two INDEPENDENT WITNESSES revoking her previously appointed POA the same way she could revoke her will...or add a codicil to her will. 

https://www.lawdepot.ca/contracts/revocation-of-power-of-attorney/FAQ.aspx?loc=US


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## dougboswell (Oct 25, 2010)

carverman said:


> Dougboswell wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As you mentioned a lawyer is not required if you are prepared to do it yourself. Is this family ready to do it themselves? The repeated message was that the family and grandma were afraid of this guy. They said that if they got a new POA for finance they felt he would contest it. This was only my suggestion to head this guy off. If a lawyer does it personally and says that he felt she was able to make her own decision this guy would not have any grounds to contest a new one.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

DayTek said:


> The POA tells Grandma that she has no money to do anything, yet Grandma has shown her youngest that with her and Grandpa’s pensions, plus a good chunk of savings, she has lots of wiggle room.


This situation concerns me. Grandma needs greater understanding of he own financial situation. Maybe there is less money than she thinks. Maybe there is malfeasance or misrepresentation by the POA. Either way transparency about the actual financial situation is the missing element.

The rest is all family stuff. Good luck.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

If Grandma is still mentally competent, she can revoke the POA. (And if she is still competent, why has the POA been invoked?) If Grandma is *not* mentally competent, she cannot revoke the POA. More information here: http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/pgt/livingwillqa.pdf


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

We have something similar in my wife's family...one daughter takes advantage of her mom with vehicles etc playing the helpless card...she even has mom's bank card to use,yet can still afford cigarettes & alcohol every day. Pathetic.


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## lb71 (Apr 3, 2009)

I wouldn't give financial POA to the nursing home. Their interests are not necessarily aligned with the patient's. 

dougboswell had a good point about 2 POA's as a check on each other. Perhaps a couple of the grand kids can act as POA, and sell it to the mean Uncle as a way of relieving some of his burden so he can spend more time with grandma.

To play devil's advocate, the above POA may have a legitimate concern about his sister. She may have a history of living off her parents, and not being self sufficient. He could be concerned she is just leeching off mom.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

MoneyGal hit the nail on the head. A POA is invoked once a person is incompetent. It's not a 'partial' type of thing - he either controls her finances or doesn't. However, Grandma doesn't sound incompetent - by the way this is determined by a doctor, not a lawyer. Just because his name is on the document, doesn't mean he can control things. She would need to be declared incompetent, and then the POA invoked.

Sounds like it would be a good idea to change the POA (perhaps to two people), while she still can.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> If Grandma is still mentally competent, she can revoke the POA. (*And if she is still competent, why has the POA been invoked?)* If Grandma is *not* mentally competent, she cannot revoke the POA. More information here: http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/pgt/livingwillqa.pdf


 From the OP, she appeared to suffered some kind of stroke. 

Maybe she needed a POA at that time, incapable of making a decision herself with regards to her finances..or maybe she never really had a clue about her finances and the current POA was named to protect her..
from herself , and others wanting Grandma to bankroll them..who knows..not enough background information here..but as mentioned, if she is now of "sound mind" (how do you establish that?) ..repeat her name and have her do some simple addition?

Depending on how much the stroke affected her, and how much of her mental capacity she has managed
to recover by now, she may be able to make a decision in regards to renaming a new POA, and be able to sign her name on the form. If that is the case, she doesn't need a lawyer..except maybe as a witness to testify that she appeared to be of sound mind. 
Stroke survivors can recover a bit of their mental capacity...even at her age.86.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

>but as mentioned, if she is now of "sound mind" (how do you establish that?) ..repeat her name and have her do some simple addition?

Physicians and geriatric social workers assess mental competency for the purposes of establishing / "turning on" POAs.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree. Her doctor needs to make the diagnosis of whether she is yet again of sound mind. Physicians may be reluctant to get in the middle of a family feud but that goes with the territory. That would be a necessary first step.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I would be very surprised if a Nursing home wants to have a POA for Property, other than for indigents for whom no one else will serve. And even then it should be some kind of public trustee. For an honest nursing home it's an administrative and legal hassle they don't need; for a dishonest one it's a license to steal their patients' money.

If Grandma is of sound mind, a POA can be cancelled/revised any time.


_Grandma has kept insurance and maintenance on the car so her daughter can visit her, but her son sees this as being taken advantage of. _


Having said that, there may be perfectly good reasons for the POA to think Grandma's car should be disposed of. I'm sure the insurance company would be very disturbed to find that the primary policy holder is now living in a nursing home, and that the principal driver is someone else. If she wants to give the car to her daughter, and she is sound of mind, that's her privilege. But keeping it registered and insured under her name is a mistake, and potentially a big liability.


_Her daughter struggles financially and is on assistance, which is why the POA gets angry at Grandma for letting her still use the car. _

This doesn't really make sense. Is he trying to punish Grandma for his sister's financial problems? Why is he angry that Grandma wants to help out the daughter she is so close to? 

The alleged abusive behaviour is definitely a bad sign, assuming you have independent evidence of it.


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## DayTek (Sep 26, 2013)

Thanks for all the responses!

When I say Grandma is of “sound mind”, it means just that. After the stroke, she, on rare occasion, will now take a few seconds to recognize people or sometimes will repeat things in a conversation. But she is completely cognitive of who she is and who everyone else is. Doctors said she may never walk again, but she made it a priority to learn and can now use a walker to slowly get around – She’s extremely proud of herself for that.

You have asked a lot of questions regarding the son who is POA and the youngest daughter. Her son is a rather intimidating person, both in size and manner – Some described him as a ‘bully’ and that would be a fair description in most cases. He was closer with Grandpa than Grandma growing up. He spent a lot of time hunting, fishing and being coached by Grandpa in hockey. He took care of things financially when Grandma had the stroke, but now that Grandma’s only bill is the fee from the home (which comes out automatically), his POA duties aren’t really necessary. He gets her bank account statements, so knows what’s in her accounts. When he told her that she doesn’t have money to spend, she was confused and concerned because the math didn’t add up. She gave her youngest daughter her debit card and asked her to retrieve statements. These showed that after her payment to the home every month, she had quite a bit of extra money piling up in her bank accounts.

As for the youngest daughter, she has received financial help from Grandma in the past, but stopped asking for help after the stroke. She is on disability and doesn’t work, so she only uses Grandma’s car to run errands or visit Grandma (or bring people to visit Grandma). Grandma loves family. She and Grandpa would have visitors all year. They had a house on the lake and didn’t travel much because they had a nice view all the time and family all around. After Grandpa passed away, she sold the house and began living alone. She would get very lonely, so the youngest daughter came to live with her (this worked out for both of them because the daughter was financially burdened). 

Grandma has told the POA what she wants to do with her money. There are many possible reasons the POA has reacted the way he has:
- Jealousy of seeing a closeness develop between his mother and sister after losing his father
- Judgment over the decision Grandma has made over the years to financially aide his youngest sister
- Greed over wanting a larger inheritance 
- Your basic, run-of-the-mill “power trip” 

A POA is supposed to act in the best interest of those who delegated them the responsibility. I am in banking and I know what to look for in suspicious POA behavior. If Grandma looks forward to visitors and it’s her youngest daughter who visits the most often, so it’s not unusual that she would want to keep her car going, especially if she has the money to do that. Out of her 6 children, 3 of them live within a ½ hour of her…And only 1 of those 3 visit on a regular basis (the youngest daughter). The other 3 live between 3 and 8 hours away.

I hope some of that helps shine more light on the situation. Grandma has never put herself in financial trouble, even when helping family. And I think that if she wants to take a cruise at 86 and has the money to do so, she shouldn’t let her son/POA lie to her and make her feel guilty otherwise.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Given that description it's definitely time she changed POA. I still have reservations about the ownership/insurance arrangement for the car. Under normal circumstances the youngest daughter would be the logical choice, unless she can't handle the paperwork. But given the apparent family dynamics, and the possibility of the closest daughter having a potential conflict of interest, a joint POA with one of the other children who lives close by may be the best choice. There would need to be some informal agreement between the "attorneys" as to who was going to do what, and when they needed to consult with each other. 

It might be worthwhile seeing a lawyer about this, because the lawyer could act as the buffer to inform Son No. 1 that his POA has been replaced, and to write to the bank and others about it too. (Was the original POA prepared by a lawyer or bank? - if so that might be the place to start.)


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## dougboswell (Oct 25, 2010)

Until the family decides what steps to take (soon I hope) they need to document any incidents ( time and date and what happened) witnessed between the POA and the grandma. As I alluded to earlier there should be a meeting between the family and the nursing home administer and nursing director to express their concerns. This will allow the nursing staff to watch for incidents and record them. Verbal abuse is abuse. I would want to see all the bank statements to make sure there is no financial abuse. As mentioned previously one person can have the POA for her health matters and 1 or 2 could have the POA for finances.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> >but as mentioned, if she is now of "sound mind" (how do you establish that?) ..r*epeat her name and have her do some simple addition?
> *


Works for me. 
All I have to do to establish my mental compentency is to wake up, remember my name, count my fingers
and I'm good to go. I can rewrite my will and include a codicil and change my POA, should that be required.

I defy any social worker/psychiatrist (with perhaps ulterior motives) to declare me crazy and lock me
up in an institution.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

DayTek said:


> Thanks for all the responses!
> 
> When I say Grandma is of “sound mind”, it means just that. After the stroke, she, on rare occasion, *will now take a few seconds to recognize people or sometimes will repeat things in a conversation. But she is completely cognitive of who she is and who everyone else is.* Doctors said she may never walk again, but she made it a priority to learn and can now use a walker to slowly get around – She’s extremely proud of herself for that.


Good for Grandma. 

I'm not as old as Grandma, but at my age, I'm having trouble with recall and names. I never forget a face, but I can forget the name temporarily..but eventually it comes back to me. 

Not as sharp mentally as I used to be, but I sure as hell am not going to have some social worker-psychiatric assessor come in to determine if I am of sound mind. If I can hold a pen, and still sign my name
and spell "psychiatric" and read the document, 
I declare myself competent to change my will and POA, in front of two INDEPENDENT witnesses who
do not benefit in any way from my POA to witness my signature, of course.

And if I can type this reply and form words and phrases in my brain, then as far as I'm concerned, I'm still competent...I think...


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

DayTek said:


> There are many possible reasons the POA has reacted the way he has:
> - Jealousy of seeing a closeness develop between his mother and sister after losing his father
> - Judgment over the decision Grandma has made over the years to financially aide his youngest sister
> - Greed over wanting a larger inheritance
> - Your basic, run-of-the-mill “power trip”


Or maybe he's genuinely trying to do what he thinks is best for her. He is her son after all. There is more than one side to every story and we've only heard yours, I suspect if we heard his it would be quite different. It seems to me the people wanting grandma to pay their car bills are the ones taking advantage of her, not the guy who just wants her to save her money for herself. Just because grandma's income just barely covers her expenses doesn't mean that any excess should be wasted. What about saving for unexpected emergencies, like somethign not covered by her insurance?


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

carverman said:


> Good for Grandma.
> 
> I'm not as old as Grandma, but at my age, I'm having trouble with recall and names. I never forget a face, but I can forget the name temporarily..but eventually it comes back to me.


I'm 30, and can't remember faces. I've been like that my whole life. It's not a sign of senility, some people are just born that way. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia

I ran into a guy at the grocery store a few months ago, he said hi and called me by name. I just stared at him, he looked vaguely familiar but I couldn't recall who he was. Then when he said his name I finally realized who he was - my landlord. I had only seen him a few times before and only for a short time each time, so I could not remember his face. I need to see someone's face daily for a long time before I can remember them. If I see them once or twice for a few minutes each time, I will forget what they look like and if I see them a month down the road I probably won't recognize them.


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