# Child care - Suggestions?



## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

After months of trying to find a decent daycare for our son we finally settled on a daycare which shall remain nameless. 

My son is simultaneously a little genius and a little strange, before he went to the daycare he was getting really weird after hanging around us lot. 

The idea was to socialize him around other kids which worked really great. So anyways then last month we found out they would move to this other school, then we got a letter saying they would close down August 31st. 

We were pretty happy when he was only going half days 3 days per week, but then we put him in full time at the beginning of June. Last week I go there and he had a bad case of diaper rash, so bad he was walking funny when I went to go get him, then...when I got him to the car and he hadn't been wiped properly and he actually had a blister in one spot. 

Yesterday, we went to pick him up, as soon as I got there he started to weep, he didn't want to walk, so I carried him, I still had no idea what was going on. Finally he tells me his bum hurts, I bring him inside and find that his diaper is clean, but, basically his bottom has not been cleaned at all. (Like if you took the dirty one off and put a new one on without doing anything else) 
I look in the designated area, and there is not one but two full bags of wipes. I tried to wipe but there was blistering on many areas. 

Home is two minutes away, he won't sit in his seat, so hubby drives and I hold him. We get home and put him in the bath, he won't even let us rinse him off with cool water in the shower, after a while we convince him to sit in the bath. 

Diaper rash is one thing, we go out, we sit in the car, sometimes he does get some diaper rash. OK that's not what I'm talking about here...I'm talking DIAPER RASH with blistering...

So basically we tried not to react emotionally, but after considering it, we have decided that he is no longer to attend that daycare because we can't even fathom the circumstances under which such a problem would develop. 

Granted he was on a daytrip to the beach, and they claimed he had diarrhea but it is my belief that he didn't have diarrhea, but that they failed to change him for hours and hours and so came up with this alternative scenario. They also mentioned we did not put any wipes in his travel bag, but he did have 2 full bags of wipes at the center. 

So on short notice we have to find some alternative solution to childcare at least part of the time. Hopefully something affordable. Any suggestions? Are we being too emotional? Any other parents have these kinds of problems? 

Also I feel bad because he has friends there that he plays with that he won't see anymore.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

In my opinion, you are not overreacting. I would not leave my child with a group like that if they can't even get something as simple as bottom cleaning right.

As for alternatives, you should talk to people in your area and find out what is available.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Can't help, our decision was for wife to stay home with children until they went to School full time.

Cloth Diapers and you did not get UIC .

Day Care must be hell, strangers giving your children their values, and low paid people caring for societies most precious resource.

Chinese have great solution, Grand Parents move in and look after children.

My Niece just graduated from a two year course that qualifies her to look after kids, She may be qualified but She sure isn't capable.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Don't paint all daycares with the same brush I'm Howard. My daughter has been in the same daycare for over two years now and I would not have her any other place, including home with grandparents. Not only does the daycare provide the high level of social interaction my daughter requires, it's been widely shown that kids who stay home with grandparents, or even parents, tend to not be as healthy (ie tendency to be overweight) nor as stimulated. This makes sense since most grand parents are understandably, not as active as children and young adults.

You're not over reacting Berubeland. If it were me I would speak with the director and tell them what you think and let them get back to you. They owe you the truth, hopefully you will get it. Ask other parents, did any other kids have issues that day? It's tough when there's a huge demand for care


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

You are not overreacting at all. IMO, you did absolutely the right thing. As a parent you have to sometimes go with your instincts but in this case, it is pretty clear that the daycare is neglecting to take care of the kids.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

You've already made the decision to take him out but there's no way he should be getting severe diaper rash in their care when he isn't prone to it in your care. 

You should be able to ask for and see their diaper-changing practices (i.e., we check/change every x hours; if the diaper is soiled we do x, etc.) They are responsible for taking wipes with them if they leave the daycare - it is not acceptable to leave a child unwiped after a soiled diaper and it is not your responsibility to ensure they have adequate supplies before they leave the centre (how could you possibly do this?). This is an extremely basic issue. 

I poked around on the Day Nurseries Act and regulations to see what the specific violation might be. In your shoes I would be tempted to report the daycare to the College of ECEs and the Ministry of Children and Youth Services (the licensing agency for daycares in Ontario). If they are licensed, this should spur a visit from the licensing agency to confirm that the procedures in place are adequate. 

I'm curious about the notice that they are closing at the end of August...I wonder if standards are falling as the end date draws near.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

I am not sure how you can say it is the same day care as I am sure there is a turnover in staff.

Stay at home Mums can defend their decisions equally as those who choose to put their child into an institution, and when many say they must work, for many it is more the intellectual need not to stay at home with their child rather than the monetary.

Today's Kids, raised by strangers now put great value on their friends, and in their later years, the belonging to a group for many takes preecdent over Direct Family.

The stay at home Mum needs to be valued more highly than most do, tough job but rewards are priceless.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

It's great to hear how the role of a stay-at-home parent is so important to you, Howard. I'd love to hear your personal experiences of being the stay-at-home parent to your own children.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> It's great to hear how the role of a stay-at-home parent is so important to you, Howard. I'd love to hear your personal experiences of being the stay-at-home parent to your own children.


Haha. Nice one MG!


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> I am not sure how you can say it is the same day care as I am sure there is a turnover in staff.


Of course there has been turnover in staff. One staff in the past two years, due to the Director's (who worked there for over 30 years) retirement.

The only staff turnover beyond that was summer students hired for the summer months only, as most daycares and many other companies do.

In no way does this change the general dynamics of the daycare. In fact, one could argue it helps the child better accept a reality of life, change happens.

I do not tell stay at home parents what they are doing is wrong (I was a sahp and will be once again in about four weeks!!), nor do I accept condescension from people like you I'm Howard who are adamant putting your child in daycare is somehow SUCH a terrible thing.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Well in my case my hubby was the stay at home parent and I also work from home so I also get a lot of child care time. 

Even though our son could read when he entered the daycare, he was "getting weird" for instance one time he watched a show about sign language, and he started making letters with his fingers. This was cute until we went to the playground and started greeting other kids this way. 

His eye contact was poor, he didn't know how to greet other kids and interact with them mostly because he was stuck with adults every single day. He didn't like loud sounds and so on. 

We love him and love taking care of him and chose for the first 3 years of his life to raise him entirely ourselves, we have no family in town to help out either. Until we realized the he had to learn skills that we had no way to teach him he stayed with us. 

The Doctor was the one who said he should go into daycare. 

That's why he went to daycare. He's become a ton more social, but I put him in there in January and got 10 colds because the place is a breeding ground for every infection in the book. With my crazy work schedule, I had to drive back across town to pick him up and then go back to work at night. Daycare cost me money and was a giant pain in the ***. I did it because he needs friends his age and socialization. 

I am self employed, I get no sick leave, and I got no maternity leave, I have to work because my husband is sick. From the beginning we have all worked together as a family, to do the best we can with what we have. 

I tried to bring him to Early Years centers around here it was hilarious. There I was with my earpiece taking calls and conducting business. I tried to stay in the corner so I would not bother the other mothers who got to chat and help their kids while I worked like a dog to feed my family. 

My son comes first, if it means that he goes to daycare he goes to daycare, if that means that I have to drive two hours to go pick him up and then drop him off at home then go to work again that's what I do.

But what I don't appreciate is neglect. I am not a perfect mom by any stretch, I have also forgot to change his butt immediately, he did get diaper rash before. I doubt that he was changed all day in this case and then they tried to make up a story. They left him full of crap and tried to make excuses for why he was like that. 

He is three, it is not OK. I don't expect them to teach him anything, it is nothing more than a parking spot where the kids go to play with each other. The entire affair is very disturbing. 

But perhaps it is more than can be expected of the staff who have all lost their jobs come September, and who's minds are surely on their own families and how they will feed them and their next job interview along with a fair heaping of righteous anger for the goofballs who run the entire show but have failed to find a space for the daycare in time even though the school was slated for demolition for years. At least 10 people are out of work and bout 60 childcare spaces are lost. 

Regardless of my feelings for their loss, knowing people like I do, I don't think it's a safe place for him.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm Howard said:


> Day Care must be hell, strangers giving your children their values, and low paid people caring for societies most precious resource.
> 
> Chinese have great solution, Grand Parents move in and look after children.
> 
> .


Did you homschool your children too? That's pretty much the exact same thing, except even more so if they went to public school. The teachers are strangers, that you get for a year if that, some are unqualified, some are great. 

Will you or your wife be leaving the Florida life, and moving in with your kids to take care of the grandkids? You have severely oversimplified the Chinese lifestyle. I am assuming you are not Chinese, and are learning it vicariously through your son who is spending time there. 

I'm curious, if your wife refused to stay at home with the kids, or was the main bread winner back then, would you have stayed home with the kids, and given up your career? 



I'm Howard said:


> I
> Stay at home Mums can defend their decisions equally as those who choose to put their child into an institution, and when many say they must work, for many it is more the intellectual need not to stay at home with their child rather than the monetary.
> 
> Today's Kids, raised by strangers now put great value on their friends, and in their later years, the belonging to a group for many takes preecdent over Direct Family.
> ...


I personally do not feel that mothers either SAH (Stay at home) or working outside of the home should need to defend their parenting decisions if they are also considering the needs of the family as a whole. I think that is the problem, when people make judgemental statements, and try to force their views as better. 

I'll admit it, I don't need to work for financial reasons, I am a parent, a mother in fact, and I want to work. I worked extremely hard to get where I am, and taking time off would be really challenging to ever get back in. 

Again, I thnk you've oversimplified kids not being connected because they are being raised by strangers. There are too many factors to discuss here.

I do agree about your comment that Stay at Home PARENTS deserve a lot of credit. It is hard, and it's a path some choose, but its not the only path to well adjusted kids.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

It's too funny when people get all mythical about a way of life that existed for about a millisecond. 

Let me remind you all that until the 60's or so, women did not control their own reproduction for the most part. Also families were much larger. This meant that women had their own daycare...

I have one son, he has no one to play with. 

If you look at what one would term "more primitive" societies, child care is shared within the community, women take their kids to the "daycare" where they take turns along with elders supervising the kids. They sit and chat and enjoy each other's company while caring for the kids. It's social for both the parents and the kids. Everyone gets a break from each other. 

Even when I was a kid all the parents took turns getting rid of their kids and taking other kids in. We were told go play outside from a very young age. 

I am actually the only person on my block with a child... 

Families used to be closer...I live 5 hours away from my parents and sister. 

Daycare situations are not new...there has been a need for child care and shared child care since kids existed.


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## Calgary_Girl (Apr 20, 2011)

Addy said:


> Not only does the daycare provide the high level of social interaction my daughter requires, it's been widely shown that kids who stay home with grandparents, or even parents, tend to not be as healthy (ie tendency to be overweight) nor as stimulated. This makes sense since most grand parents are understandably, not as active as children and young adults.
> (


Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. The most recent study that I read actually says that kids who are in daycare full time tend to be overweight (vs. kids who have a stay at home parent). This makes more sense to me since both parents are exhausted after working full time that they don't have time to cook properly.

To the original OP, I don't believe you are overreacting at all. I would try to find a new daycare ASAP. Luckily, I don't have this issue. While I know that some families have no choice and both parents must work, I was lucky in that grandma watched my first daughter when I went back to work part time for 3 days a week. After our second daughter was born, I decided to be a stay at home mom at least until the kids are ready to go to school full time.

In Calgary, it is almost impossible to find a high quality daycare that doesn't cost an arm and a leg with a 6 month (or more) waiting list. For our family, it wasn't worth it for me to return to work and have my entire paycheque go towards the cost of the daycare. Plus, I would always be wondering who was watching my child .


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Rachelle - I couldn't agree more with your comment.

I agree that there was a time when it was a lot easier for Mom to stay home. First of all, that's what most did plus there might not have been good employment opportunities available.

As for local support - back when, if most Mothers stayed home and had kids the same age, then it was likely that most Moms had either family around to help or could easily make friends with other stay-at-home Moms.

Now, it's not so common and you have go out of your way to find similar people. You need to move to my street - there are a million young kids which has made life a lot easier for us. Playdates are easy to come by, but most aren't stay at home Moms. 

My wife stays at home with our kids and I can tell you that it is nothing like Howard's utopian fantasy of a traditional stay at home situation. Two small kids and an ageing grandmother (she visits most days) who sometimes helps, sometimes hinders the process and has rapidly failing health. 

I honestly think my wife might be happier working, but she wants to stay home with the kids and we can easily afford it.

At the end of the day, there are a TON of pros and cons of being a staying at home mom and a working mom. There just isn't any good universal solution that's better than the other. Like every other aspect of parenting, we just have to muddle through and try to make the best with whatever decisions we make.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> I'll admit it, I don't need to work for financial reasons, I am a parent, a mother in fact, and I want to work. I worked extremely hard to get where I am, and taking time off would be really challenging to ever get back in.


We're exactly in the same situation. One of us can easily stay home with the kids but going out and doing something else other than parenting keeps us both sane. And the kids are very happy in daycare.

I truly admire stay-at-home parents. I look after my kids during shutdowns (2 weeks every year) and they totally drive me batty. I can't wait to get back to work just to get away from them for a bit


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

In Today's Globe, an Obituary to an eighteen month old who died after falling at a day care centre.

I recognise accidents do happen,something like this breaks your heart.

I would not have stayed at home with kids if wife wanted to work, My Wife loved being a stay at home Mum, and she is a professional O.R.Nurse, but Day Care, why would we have children to let someone else raise them.?

I am quite certain Grand Kids are not in the equation for our Sons, and I am very fine with that, but should it occur, My Wife certainly would not be adverse to buying a large home in Down Town TO and share with our Son, if it was needed.

Please quality versus quantity of time argument, that is just rationalisation, reality is many people should probabably not have had kids but did it because it was expected.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> In Today's Globe, an Obituary to an eighteen month old who died after falling at a day care centre.


I can not believe you are arguing your point that children do not belong in daycare by using such a tragic story as "proof" (which anyone with half a brain would realize proves nothing about the argument for or against daycare) to bolster your point of view.

It is merely your point of view that children do not belong in daycare. My child was at home with me, she is now in daycare. Both worked well for us at the time.

Shame on you I'm Howard for using this tragic story in a vain attempt to somehow credit your opinion. Sickening.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I was lucky enough to be able to stay home with my two daughters until they had completed their primary grades at school, but that was when a new house cost $15,500. I don't see how it's possible for young families to have the luxury of one of them staying home with the children when they have mortgages of several hundred thousand dollars, which is common in this part of the country.

As for both parents working even though they don't have to for financial reasons, I think it's a very individual choice. There's a lot to be said for having parents who are happy and fulfilled. Looking back on my own life, I can honestly see no pattern among my friends and relatives when it comes to successfully raising children, whether both parents worked or whether one stayed at home. One of my daughters was a single mother who raised her daughters all on her own, with no support (financial or otherwise) from their father, who skipped the country just after the second one was born. It would be hard to find two more successful young women than those girls have turned out to be at 21 and 22. In fact, one of them told me a few years ago when she was 16, "You know Grandma, a lot of people feel sorry for us because we're a single-parent family and we don't have much money, but all three of us [she included her mother and her sister] know that we're better off than most of the people who feel sorry for us." I think my daughters' success in raising her daughters had nothing to do with whether or not she was a stay-at-home Mum, and everything to do with her attitide towards being a parent. She once told her daughters when they were complaining that she wouldn't allow to do something they wanted to, "This family is not a democracy; it's a benevolent dictatorship, and I'm the dictator." One of the girls told me about that just recently, and she said, "We pretended we didn't like that, but we really did, and we've talked about how grateful we are that our Mum raised us that way." If my daughter had been able to stay home and raise her children, she would have raised them with that same attitude, but having to work didn't stop her from raising her kids with the values she thought was important.

Added after reading Howard's last post: Howard, your comment about the child who died at day care is completely ridiculous, in my opinion. Are you suggesting that no child ever dies accidentally at their own home? I've never seen any statistics on the matter, but my guess would be that more children die accidentally at home than do so at daycare.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Addy said:


> Don't paint all daycares with the same brush I'm Howard. My daughter has been in the same daycare for over two years now and I would not have her any other place, including home with grandparents. Not only does the daycare provide the high level of social interaction my daughter requires, it's been widely shown that kids who stay home with grandparents, or even parents, tend to not be as healthy (ie tendency to be overweight) nor as stimulated.


I take serious offense to this comment. 

I have been a SAH parent since day one. Neither of my children are unhealthy, overweight or under-stimulated. My kids manage to get a "high level of social interaction" with other children their age and are well adjusted, happy children. 

The stay-at-home vs. working parent debate is a no win debate as *there is* *no right answer* - each family has a solution that works for them. That being said, it is unfortunate that so many parents seem to have to justify their situation by demeaning the alternative situations of other families. 

Knocking others down to make yourself feel better...isn't that a form of bullying? 

Rachelle, IMO the situation with your son sounds like abuse (neglect is a form of abuse). I would write a strongly worded letter to the director of the daycare, include a Doctor's note with the diagnosis and copy the appropriate government regulator. Smart move getting your little dude out of there.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Dana said:


> I take serious offense to this comment.
> 
> I have been a SAH parent since day one. Neither of my children are unhealthy, overweight or under-stimulated. My kids manage to get a "high level of social interaction" with other children their age and are well adjusted, happy children.
> 
> Knocking others down to make yourself feel better...isn't that a form of bullying?


Dana, please go back and read my messages, all of them in this thread. You will quickly see I made it extremely clear that I have had my child at home, and in daycare, and both situations worked for our needs at the time.

You are taking my message out of context, and reacting quite harshly. Read I'm Howards comments, and my responses and you will see this.

I used that study to stress to I'm Howard that no one situation fits every family as he is clearly, as you can tell if you read his messages, knocking families who put their children in daycare.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Addy, raisng the issue of whether children really need to be put into day care for Finacial Needs as opposed to emtional needs of the parent is not knocking these Parents, but questioning why have children if you want some one else to raise them??

People should not feel that having children is necessary to a relationship and if the demands of raising them are not what you want, nothing wrong with not having any.

FTR,I am one of ten children of a stay at home Mum whose Dad left school at 14, they were married almost sixty years,Ovarian Cancer took Her in her mid 70's.

My first live in ended when , at 24, She had her tubes tied, She did not want children, I did.

She had a very successful career and never, ever regretted not having children, She did not want those types of demands.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> ... why have children if you want some one else to raise them??


I'll leave this to others to remark on. I'm too shocked at your ignorance to respond at the moment.



I'm Howard said:


> People should not feel that having children is necessary to a relationship and if the demands of raising them are not what you want, nothing wrong with not having any.


And this has what to do with daycare?


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## cannon_fodder (Apr 3, 2009)

Our daughter was in daycare from the time she was one year old. But this daycare was at a private, religious-oriented school (not Montessori, not Catholic - Protestant). The care there was excellent and in fact she was being taught during her days there. In fact it was so good, we enrolled her in the school full time.

It was not cheap of course and it's a big decision to spend that kind of money but for us it was great value. My wife could continue to work and it was far better than other daycare options we tried (there is a group where daycare is set up in a person's home with a maximum # of kids). I don't remember it being that much more expensive than other daycare options - maybe 25% more and probably less accounting for the tax deductability.

I think it is unfortunate that people are judged based on this decision. There is no value in anyone commenting on suitability of daycare vs. homecare in this thread.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Rachelle ,
You did the correct thing and for what it is worth i would put a complaint in writing but in the end they are closing soon.My kids are almost 11 years apart so I was a stay at home mom but put my daughter in daycare for 3 half days for part of the year ,mainly when the weather was nice and for her to have friends to play with.I choose a daycare in my neighborhood so i met the other moms and we started having play days .I too had no family help and we did it all on our own.We were married eight years before we had kids as we both wanted one of us to stay at home with the kids.We are lucky we had that choice , my niece drops her kids off to daycare and cries on her way to work as she would love nothing more than to be able to afford to stay home.I have other friends who love their kids but need a career as well ,it is a individual choice and no right or wrong answer.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Ok well today I did it. My husband actually wrote the letter withdrawing M from daycare. 

I went to the school and no one from the daycare was there as they were off on a field trip. There was a secretary there, and I tried to get permission to go into their space, she said no, I insisted and the principal was called. I explained what happened to the principal and I showed him the picture. 

His immediate advice was to call children's aid. He let me into their space to drop off a towel and a jacket that belonged to them along with a letter and grab my two bags of wipes and diapers. 

When I left I was crying and sad, my son has made so much progress while in their care, last year we saw the pediatric neurologist because while at the ER he noticed he made no eye contact with people and walked on his tippy toes. In short he had quite a few warning signs for high functioning autism. 

Now he's very social, he greets people and talks to them, asks for what he wants and so on. Previous to the daycare, he never missed me. When I would come home after work, he wouldn't even greet me. I'd take it personally but he was the same with my husband. Now he runs over to the door and hugs me when I come home. 

In any case I thought about it and then called Children's Aid, I spoke to a very nice man and explained the entire situation, I emailed him the pictures I took of his bottom as well as the letter saying that we were taking him out of there. They can investigate what they want. 

I never realized how fortunate I am, I am distressed for sure, but imagine if my husband couldn't take care of him and I was on my own. It is entirely conceivable that I would have to choose between leaving him in that daycare until I found another space somewhere or lose my job (and obviously supporting the family) Then there's the risk of retaliation for reporting the Daycare. 

I'm Howard, hmmpt. Let me tell you a secret. Children are beautiful wonders of creation, there is not one person on earth who is a perfect parent. Show me a lady who's kid has never thrown a tantrum, peed in his pants, or been totally exasperated with the 25th request for water, book, kiss at bedtime and I'll show you a liar

Children still survive and even thrive (maybe despite their parents) in all different types of environments. There is no right way. There is just families doing the best they know how with what they have. Most kids will grow up become relatively functional adults. Kids are resilient, they are tough and they are fantastic and that's why people have them even if they are not in the perfect nuclear family environment. 

Not only that but people's lives change...if I had a dollar for every girl or lady who had a husband when she got pregnant and didn't have one a couple years later... what do you do with those kids? Soylent Green?


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## beginner (Jul 29, 2011)

My deep sympathy to your little one! 
Diaper rash is really painful as my experience with my children. Soda water can help. 
And, I can not believe there is such a daycare. I am pretty sure you can find a good daycare for your child. Trust your feelings. --- First daycare my daugther went, I did not like. As I observe, people working there are not happy and they are harsh towards children. And I was right. My daughter, then 7 months, was left on floor crying for long. We were lucky, soon another daycare she was in waiting list accepted her. People there loves children and confident of their job. A simple example, every morning we went to daycare, every working staff , even the ones with different groups, once seeing my daughter, will smile and tell, hello, xx (her name). That is a warm greeting. --- overall, I guess management is very important. I admire the directrice there.


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