# 2017 Great flood of Eastern Ontario/Gatineau



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Natural disasters seemed to be more common every year somewhere in Canada.
Climate change it's being blamed on..and this is just the tip of the iceberg. 
In 2013 it was the Calgary floods. Last year it was Fort Mac burned to a crisp due to wildfires.

This year it's Ottawa/Gatineaus turn, although there are also reports of high river levels in the upper Ottawa valley.

Lots of homeowners in these low lieing areas have had to abandon their homes. In some areas, near swollen rivers.
any homes close to the shoreline are in danger as the river banks start to collapse close to the foundations.

To make it worse for the homeowners affected, surface water insurance is hard to get and not even available in
"pre-existing" flood conditions.

Because of these natural occurances, there will be new requirements put into purchase contracts for real estate.



> "I think in the very near future, the elevation of a house will be on the MLS [real estate] system," he said. "So when you buy a house, you'll know the local elevation. So houses that are on higher ground will command higher prices. Houses on lower ground — if you flood now, you're going to flood in the future."


Imagine losing an expensive house with the foundation backing onto a riverbank and part of your back yard
collapses and slides into the river...and you can't get insurance to repair the damage? 

And the other thing..selling your house if it's on a low elevation that has seen some flooding in past years.
Watch the property values go down..it will be similar to buying a previous grow-op.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/capital-region-flooding-climate-change-1.4098783


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Climate change is going to cause changes in the property insurance business.

If people can't get property insurance on a home, they won't be able to get a mortgage.

There will have to be some high risk pools set up.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My son put some fence up at a gorgeous estate on Lake Ontario waterfront last week. Water levels are at record highs.

The old fence collapsed as the ground under it caved in. They are trucking in big boulders at a huge expense to try to stop the erosion.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Natural disasters seemed to be more common every year somewhere in Canada.
> Climate change it's being blamed on..and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
> In 2013 it was the Calgary floods. Last year it was Fort Mac burned to a crisp due to wildfires.
> 
> ...


 ... I think this kind of "flooding" weather is going to be more and more common. And hardly the first for areas such as Peterborough - especially in this hot housing market we have or had, people were still clamouring to buy on the cheap in flood-prone areaas.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

carverman said:


> Because of these natural occurrences, there will be new requirements put into purchase contracts for real estate.


I hope so! You can't sell a car in Ontario without providing a detailed history of the vehicle, yet you can sell someone a house that has had a flooded basement multiple times.

I've only bought two properties in my lifetime, but the first thing I looked at was "where does the water go". You don't have to be a geologist to figure out if your property has a potential flooding problem, yet people don't seem to even consider that when they buy/build a home. You don't need to be beside a river/lake for ground water to rise above the basement floor; you have to determine if that water can be channeled somewhere else.

Our current house is on a hill; we're nowhere near any type of body of water. Our basement has a sump hole that is gravity drained, but I still put in a pump to keep the water level far below the concrete - to prevent wicking. Today, after yesterday's rain, the pump is running every 5 minutes. This is the case every spring. Across the road, the roof of the house is level with our 1st floor. It was built by a retired couple, then the husband died a few years later. One spring, just a normal spring melt - no major event, the lady came to our door for help. The sump pump in her basement had cut out, and it was flooded. I had to go in water up to my a** to get at the power bar that had somehow been turned off. She needed to hire a company with a diesel pumper truck to get all the water out. Since then, the house has been sold 3 times. I've never discussed the issue with the new owners, so I don't know if any measures were taken to mitigate the problem. When I looked at it, the sump hose just emptied into the back yard, so basically it was like bailing out a leaky boat, recycling the same water that had nowhere else to go.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

It's getting bad in Gatineau and in Rockland/Cumberland on the Ontario side.
The military has been called in to assist with sandbags and other flood related duties in Gatineau QC.
To get the military involved the area affected has to be declared a disaster zone. 

The last time the military was called out was during the big ice storm of eastern Ontario;/Western Quebec/Montreal in Jan 1998.
and of course....the "big snow storm" in Toronto a few years back, where Mel Lastman (mayor at the time) had to call in the military to shovel the streets, 

Ottawa and Eastern Ontario was predicted to get around 50mm or more..its still raining and hasn't stopped raining since yesterday. 

Watch the property insurance rates go up next year after this. 

I suppose we can consider ourselves lucky that this isn't the same amount in snowfall in Jan/Feb..which probably be at least 40cm of snow or even more. 



> But elsewhere in Quebec, along the Gaspé Peninsula, Environment Canada warns up to an *additional 100 millimetres* could fall.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/rainfall-flood-lake-ontario-waves-1.4102502


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The lesson to be learned is: 1) don't build in a floodplain (municipalities mostly to blame allowing it in the first place), 2) don't buy on waterfront, whether that be a lake or a stream, 3) don't buy oceanfront property (pity Miami Beach, etc. being totally underwater someday or surrounded by a 15 ft concrete seawall).

I see a lot of property being uninsurable in the not too distant future. A hardship to those who unknowingly underestimated the risks.

We've had our share of flooding along creeks in the Okanagan Valley yesterday and today due to heavy rain Friday night and all day yesterday, compounded by snow melt in surrounding mountains. The thing is... all these streams flooded decades ago as well and yet people chose/choose to have that nice stream at the back of their yards.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

"Climate change it's being blamed on..and this is just the tip of the iceberg."

100%

The next few generations are screwed. Sad really. 

Our sump pump hasn't stopped in 2 weeks. It's usually done by late March/early April. Running every minute! Glad we have two in the hole!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It seems fasnionable to blame climate change for everything....notwithstanding there have been natural disasters for decades/centuries. Frequency and size may be increasing and that is to be expected with increased 'energy' in the 'sink'. How much of that is manmade and how much is the natural evolution of the planet still coming out of the last ice age remains, in my mind, open for debate. 

I've seen enough articles to believe we have come out of a particular benign and docile sweet spot (200 years?) in the planet's continuous cycle of change and that amplifies the hand wringing over recent events. The only constant is change. Best we recognize it and be prepared to roll with the punches.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

We're on oceanfront the past 6 years and have noticed higher storm surges. We have ~350' of shoreline armouring already in place in the area with most exposure but more frequently this is breached although no real damage...yet.... The only solution is to go higher. House is okay - 40' elevation- unless we have a tsunami, but private lane to here is ~5' above typical highest tides.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our landlord put up a beautiful electronic sign in front of their offices/community centre.

Usually it announces swim lessons or upcoming events.

Today it says......."Rainfall Warning. For information check our website". 

There must be some neighbors having problems with their basements.

It hasn't stopped raining here for weeks, I think. It feels like it anyways. If this is "Vancouver weather", they can have it back.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

True...roll with the punches but even my geologist uncle believes although the earth goes through cycles...we (humans) are not doing these cycles any favours. I believe him.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> It's getting bad in Gatineau and in Rockland/Cumberland on the Ontario side.
> The military has been called in to assist with sandbags and other flood related duties in Gatineau QC.
> To get the military involved the area affected has to be declared a disaster zone...


Quebec must be the centre of the universe. 
Meanwhile in Kelowna this weekend you get to fill your own sandbags.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Quebec must be the centre of the universe.
> Meanwhile in Kelowna this weekend you get to fill your own sandbags.


Blame the BC government for not making a request for federal assistance instead of saying that it is because the federal government only cares about Quebec. 

Besides the military has deployed to support Manitoba, Alberta, New Brunswick in recent years in response to disasters.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

bgc_fan said:


> Blame the BC government for not making a request for federal assistance instead of saying that it is because the federal government only cares about Quebec.
> 
> Besides the military has deployed to support Manitoba, Alberta, New Brunswick in recent years in response to disasters.


Well I didn't mention (or think of) the feds, and I wasn't slighting the military


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Well I didn't mention (or think of) the feds, and I wasn't slighting the military


Then what did you mean by "Quebec must be the centre of the universe." in response to a quoted post that stated the military had been called in to assist with the sandbags in Gatineau QC?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> The lesson to be learned is: 1) don't build in a floodplain (municipalities mostly to blame allowing it in the first place), 2) don't buy on waterfront, whether that be a lake or a stream, 3) don't buy oceanfront property (pity Miami Beach, etc. being totally underwater someday or surrounded by a 15 ft concrete seawall).
> 
> I see a l*ot of property being uninsurable in the not too distant future.* A hardship to those who unknowingly underestimated the risks.


This will be the sad reality of building or buying in low lying areas of flood plains or flash flood areas. Insurance companies may not offer the overland water rider due to high risk in certain areas. 

I just got a letter from my insurance agent recently that coverage for damage due to
overland water including torrential rainfall and overflow from fresh water rivers and lakes IF YOU QUALIFY.

The key phrase in their letter (which partly quoted here) is IF YOU QUALIFY, which I interpret as: "If you've had flooded basement or damage to foundations/outbuildings in the last 10 years..good luck qualifying". 
If one erroneously states on application that they haven't had any flooding damage in the last 10 years
and , then all of a sudden there is a claim and the insurance company investigates...not sure if they will weasel out due to false information supplied or not. 

However, if you already put in a claim for flooded basements, and lets say another one occurs in the next year, even due to a failed sump pump, good luck getting that coverage again.



> A conservation official described the current situation — a combination of heavy rainfall and snowmelt — as a *once-every-20-years event*, adding that the Ottawa River will achieve a record-breaking height when it hits its peak Monday or Tuesday.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/clarence-rockland-flood-current-1.410328


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just found a new definition from my insurer in my recent notification on my coverage.

MATERIAL MISREPRESENTATION.
This condition of your policy states that *any material change to the risk *(the information as provided on the application)
must be notified to the company or the coverage affected (and possibly the entire policy) is* void.*


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

some on here are saying that the military haven't been called out to assist with natural disasters since the 1998 ice storm up & down the ottawa river valley, including montreal.

in fact the military go out every year to help with flooding in the western provinces. Manitoba every year. Also quebec some years. Many forest fires across northern canada.

only a year ago the armed forces provided critical help in the fort mcMurray fire. Who will forget the RCAF pilot demonstrating an oxygen mask to his passengers before they boarded his plane. Every 2nd word was eff you see kay.

i'm no f.u.c.k.i.n.g stewardess, see, but you gonna stick this f.u.c.k.i.n.g thing on your f.u.c.k.i.n.g face, he said, to loud laughter & applause from the fort mcMurrayians.

.


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## wraphter (Sep 21, 2016)

Altared said:


> How much of that is manmade and how much is the natural evolution of the planet still coming out of the last ice age remains, in my mind, open for debate.


What else is open to debate?

Does high cholesterol lead to heart disease?

Does smoking increase the risk of cancer?


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Recency bias.

Well the climate seemed more stable when I was a kid and now its not therefore, this abnormal, tax everything and go back to caves.

Most of our climate change comes from disaster reporting 24-7 by the media.

I am somebody who needs to know the weather for my business. Are there extreme events? Sure, is there more of them, not really. The old timers talk of the 50s and 60s having periods like this.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I see Oka declared a state of emergency. I wonder if they will send the military to Oka?

RE agent couldn't understand why I wasn't interested in any waterfront property. Oh the great flood of 1996?

That can't happen again, says she. Hah. Waterfront is a nice place to visit and rent.


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## wraphter (Sep 21, 2016)

This isn't a problem of flood insurance or avoiding low elevation near bodies of water. That is a band aid solution.

Centuries hence, historians, writing by candle light in a deserted ruined building with a quill pen on scrap paper, will look back in anger and regret.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

wraphter said:


> This isn't a problem of flood insurance or avoiding low elevation near bodies of water. That is a band aid solution.
> 
> Centuries hence, historians, writing by candle light in a deserted ruined building with a quill pen on scrap paper, will look back in anger and regret.


Here is an author I would highly recommend.

http://dangardner.ca/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Warren Buffet takes a practical view on most things and is heavily involved in property insurance.

_"It seems highly likely to me that climate change poses a major problem for the planet. I say 'highly likely' rather than 'certain' because I have no scientific aptitude and remember well the dire predictions of most 'experts' about Y2K," he wrote in last year's shareholder letter.

"It would be foolish, however, for me or anyone to demand 100% proof of huge forthcoming damage to the world if that outcome seemed at all possible and if prompt action had even a small chance of thwarting the danger."_


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

sags said:


> _""It would be foolish, however, for me or anyone to demand 100% proof of huge forthcoming damage to the world if that outcome seemed at all possible and if prompt action had even a small chance of thwarting the danger."_


The thing is, unlike the movies that would make us think there will be a sudden drastic change 'the day after tomorrow', it will be more gradual than that. The industrialized countries will adapt, move populations, build flood barriers, etc. It may actually be a boon to their economies, what with the massive effort it would take. It's the poor countries that will be really screwed; nobody's going to spend billions to save them, just build fences to keep them out.

But no worries, by the time the planet becomes a giant baked potato, we'll all have been long done-in by antibiotic resistant bacteria, or a huge coronal mass ejection that knocks out all our technology. Ironically, in the latter case, it will be the backward 3rd World countries that survive.


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

The good news is that the fear mongers are relying on "adjusted" data and listening to those with a political agenda, so there reality is that there is little to worry about. The planet will be fine. Going from 3 molecules of CO2 per 10,000 to 4 molecules per 10,000 or even 5 molecules per 10,000 will not destroy the planet.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

phwew, that's a relief, thank god for alternative facts. And here we were all worried that all the 'science' was right. 
Thanks for setting us all straight on climate change bass player


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

What alternative facts? Computer projections/simulations by political bodies with a vested interest are not science.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

What political bodies?
The science is not controlled or manipulated by any political bodies.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Userkare said:


> The thing is, unlike the movies that would make us think there will be a sudden drastic change *'the day after tomorrow'*, it will be more gradual than that. The industrialized countries will adapt, move populations, build flood barriers, etc. It may actually be a boon to their economies, what with the massive effort it would take. *It's the poor countries that will be really screwed; nobody's going to spend billions to save them, just build fences to keep them out.
> *
> But no worries, by the time the planet becomes a giant baked potato, we'll all have been long done-in by antibiotic resistant bacteria, or a huge coronal mass ejection that knocks out all our technology. Ironically, in the latter case, it will be the backward 3rd World countries that survive.


 ... since you mentioned the 'TDAT' scenario, I think Mexico should think about that Donald-vetted wall built, never know what the future holds.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Also, think about it. 
Any body with clout has money behind it, and money doesn't want change (need we even mention the oil sector), it wants business as usual. 
Startup environmental industries don't yet really have much of a foot in the door, and don't have that same kind of weight to throw around that the old dinosaur carbon industries do.


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

mrPPincer said:


> What political bodies?
> The science is not controlled or manipulated by any political bodies.


What is the IPCC if not a political body?


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

mrPPincer said:


> Also, think about it.
> Any body with clout has money behind it, and money doesn't want change (need we even mention the oil sector), it wants business as usual.


Yup...it's all the fault of Big Oil. What you are suggesting is that absolutely no one has any interest in the 10's/hundreds of billions in government funding across the US and Canada that goes to those who support the Climate Industry, but every one wants a piece of all the money that Big Oil is somehow throwing at those who deny "settled science".


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

mrPPincer said:


> Also, think about it.
> Any body with clout has money behind it, and money doesn't want change (need we even mention the oil sector), it wants business as usual.


Wouldn't you protest too if your boss brought in a fancy new machine to take your job and gave you some vague studies to justify it?

Look at all the stuff oil pays for in this country.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

bass player said:


> What is the IPCC if not a political body?


IPCC is an intergovernmental scientific body. Thousands of scientists and other experts volunteer their time to review reports and provide summaries for policymakers. It is the internationally recognized authority on climate change.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

bass player said:


> What is the IPCC if not a political body?


The IPCC was set up to deal with a real threat. It does not *do* the science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_Change
excerpts..


> The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is a scientific and intergovernmental body under the auspices of the United Nations,[1][2] set up at the request of member governments, dedicated to the task of providing the world with an objective, scientific view of climate change and its political and economic impacts





> The IPCC does not carry out its own original research, nor does it do the work of monitoring climate or related phenomena itself. The IPCC bases its assessment on the published literature, which includes peer-reviewed and non-peer-reviewed sources.[7]
> 
> Thousands of scientists and other experts contribute (on a voluntary basis, without payment from the IPCC)[8] to writing and reviewing reports, which are then reviewed by governments. IPCC reports contain a "Summary for Policymakers", which is subject to line-by-line approval by delegates from all participating governments. Typically this involves the governments of more than 120 countries.[9]
> 
> The IPCC provides an internationally accepted authority on climate change,[10] producing reports which have the agreement of leading climate scientists and the consensus of participating governments.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

olivaw said:


> IPCC is an intergovernmental scientific body. Thousands of scientists and other experts volunteer their time to review reports and provide summaries for policymakers. It is the internationally recognized authority on climate change.


You still trust a body who doctored their own data?


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

mrPPincer said:


> The IPCC was set up to deal with a real threat. It does not *do* the science.


No one has proven there is a threat. The IPCC decided there was and their very existence and funding relies on that belief. Scientists who have a differing opinion don't show up in IPCC reports, and some who no longer work for them have spoken out. It's all about the money...if you don't believe me, then believe actual IPCC and UN spokespeople who have said exactly that:

Ottar Edenhofer Co-chair U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change working group on Mitigation of Climate Change from 2008 to 2015:

"One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy,” “We redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy.”

Christiana Figueres, Executive Secretary of U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change:

“This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution.”


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

tygrus said:


> Wouldn't you protest too if your boss brought in a fancy new machine to take your job and gave you some vague studies to justify it?
> 
> Look at all the stuff oil pays for in this country.


Oil has contributed a lot to Canada and it will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. 

But climate science is hardly vague. Objective evidence continues to mount. Instead of denying the science, let's embrace it and do our part. 

ROC should do their part too. They can start by buying Canadian instead of importing from Venezuela and Saudi Arabia.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

tygrus said:


> Wouldn't you protest too if your boss brought in a fancy new machine to take your job and gave you some vague studies to justify it?
> 
> Look at all the stuff oil pays for in this country.


Understandable, yeah, but to answer your question specifically, no, I wouldn't protest at all, simply because I as a single man with no dependants could fully retire at any time, but keep my foot in just for the physical/social/mental exercise, but I'm already involved in a number of replacement activities, some of them volunteer, so I'm good for the transition.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

*Hey Peeple!~!*:frown-new:
I wouid appreciate if you didn;t HIJACK my THREAD, with comments that are not appropriate or on topic.

*THE TOPIC AGAIN...is the widespread flooding in the Ottawa area. *If you want to go off topic..start your own thread, ok?



> *Few Canadians know their flood risk*
> The introduction of overland flooding insurance to the Canadian market is having another effect, said Jason Thistlethwaite, director of University of Waterloo's Climate Change Adaptation Project: *Canadians are less likely to qualify for federal government disaster assistance.
> *
> Federal legislation, he explained, stipulates that if *"insurance is readily and reasonably available," then you don't qualify for disaster assistance* — even if you never actually purchased the insurance, or didn't even know it existed.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/home-insurance-overland-flood-insurance-1.4101615


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We received a letter from our property insurance company advising that they now cover flood water free as a bonus on our policy.

We are in little danger of major flooding, but there is some basement flooding in the area. 

The expense of such events has risen as people convert their unfinished basements into theater rooms and living space.

Personally, I leave almost nothing on the unfinished basement floor. Everything is in plastic tubs or on racking.

It is a risk to spend $30,000 on a basement. They weren't designed for living space.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is insurance and then there is insurance.

It is when people have to file a claim that they discover why some insurance premiums may be higher than others they were quoted.

It isn't just about the premiums. It is also about the coverage.

We have been with the same insurance company for 31 years. We have an "all perils" policy and perhaps we pay more than we could pay with a different company. But I rely on my agent/broker expertise since we have been with them so long that we know them well.

We have never had to file a claim and hopefully never will, and I trust the agent understands the small print in the contract.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> We received a letter from our property insurance company advising that they now cover flood water free as a bonus on our policy.


Really? You are very lucky with your insurance underwriter then to include it for "free".
If I were you, I would go through* all the fine print in your policy and ensure there are no exclusion circumstances.*

Don't depend on an agent or the company to know all the circumstances.

I recently got a letter upon my renewal, pointing out in writing that certain coverage is available with an additional premiums. 
(I'm on a hilly terrain and the foundation was built on a berm, far away from any creeks/rivers or lakes and so far the storm sewer grates in front of my place are handling the excess rain.) 

I'm curious though with the recent flooding in the Ottawa area, on how much they would charge for a rider on surface water in my area, but don't really need it.

In my case, I do have Sewer Backup endorsement (Policy Limit 5192) for which there is an additional premium of
$104.
Now here is the fine print stickler in legalese.

*Sewer backup Endorsement:*
Flood means waves, tides, tidal waves, tsunamis, or the rising, or breaking out, or the overflow of any body
of water whether natural or man made.

Overland water means water that accumulates upon, or submerges land which is usually dry, resulting from:
1. the unusual and rapid accumulation or run off of surface waters from any source including torrential rains.
2. The rising, or breaking out, or the overflow of any body of water.

*Insured Perils:*
You are insured against any sewer backup or *sewer backup resulting from flood or overland water*.

so the above definition is what is important to me. 




> The expense of such events has risen as people convert their unfinished basements into theater rooms and living space.


I have a side split and the basement windows are at least 16 inches above ground with a finished family rm/3rd bedroom with carpets. Nothing else of value in them. 

In the unforseable event that it ever should happen in the next 10 years while I'm still able
to stay here, it's not going to cost that much out of pocket to replace carpets and drywall, so I'll take my chances.



> It is a risk to spend $30,000 on a basement. They weren't designed for living space.


Agree, but some houses depending on the number in the family have done that, especially with noisy teenagers and video games..and stereos. So they fix up part of the basement for junior's "man cave".


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## wraphter (Sep 21, 2016)

carverman said:


> Hey Peeple!~!
> I wouid appreciate if you didn;t HIJACK my THREAD, with comments that are not appropriate or on topic.


On the contrary carverman, it is you who is attempting to suppress discussion of climate change which is is much more important than home insurance. Climate change is a matter of life and death. That is more relevant than a soggy basement.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Wow, climate change, really? This is a major flood but in the grand scheme of weather events, highly unlikely to be much more than a 100 year flood. If you keep trotting out the tired argument of climate change for 100 year events, which haven't occurred in 100 years, people are going to tune out and for good reason.


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## wraphter (Sep 21, 2016)

^ On the contrary,the discussion about climate change was very lively upthread. It's like when there is a terrorist attack: the conversation moves to discussions of that topic.Then it is not discussed when there is no attacks like right now.

People talk about their anxieties. What's wrong with that?

Someone might think it is very fine indeed to eat partially hydrogenated Skippy peanut butter and ignore the science that says it can lead to heart disease .
Then this same poster says let's not talk about the science behind climate change. 

A very unrealistic view of what is important and what is not,imo.

Skippy peanut butter is not good for you.

Anthropogenic climate change is not good for you.

In both cases it is science that says so.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

sags said:


> We received a letter from our property insurance company advising that they now cover flood water free as a bonus on our policy.
> 
> We are in little danger of major flooding, but there is some basement flooding in the area.
> 
> ...


There was something in our renewal too (CAA). But we decline the external water ingress coverage. We have no basement and because of slopes, no possibility of flooding of the property. Water would have to come through roof, broken windows or from broken plumbing and those are covered. 

In reading about the flooded basements, I wondered why we have basements at all in Canada. In the USA, they are much less common. We do need to have the foundations below the frost line and that require some excavation. But that does not mean a whole basement has to be dug out. 

Our house is old and has a 1-3ft crawl space under the main floor. Just a dirt floor. Luckily a dry area and no water under there. A bit more height would be better because some plumbing is under there. 

Our neighbour's house is new. It too has no basement. They may call it a walk out basement, but really the lower floor is just a concrete slab just above grade. Perimeter foundations go down to frost or rock level.

If we were to build a new house, I think I would look at ways to avoid having a basement. Never really dry, musty smells, rely on sump pumps and chance of sewer back up. On plus side, you get some "free" space for storage, furnace room, workshop and sometimes a family room. All good until the floods come


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

wraphter said:


> *On the contrary carverman, it is you who is attempting to suppress discussion of climate change which is is much more important than home insurance*. Climate change is a matter of life and death. That is more relevant than a soggy basement.


Look peep-hole. I started this thread on a specific topic. If you want to discuss climate change than start a new thread.
I don't like people that lurk around,and throw their crap around as TROLLs and that is what you are.
and I don't like thread hijackers!


----------



## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

carverman said:


> Look peep-hole. I started this thread on a specific topic. If you want to discuss climate change than start a new thread.
> I don't like people that lurk around and I don't like thread hijackers!


Perhaps if you don't want people to comment on climate change, you should refrain from making statements such as this:



> Natural disasters seemed to be more common every year somewhere in Canada.
> *Climate change it's being blamed on..and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
> *In 2013 it was the Calgary floods. Last year it was Fort Mac burned to a crisp due to wildfires.


Don't blame climate change if you don't want a response to it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Our house is old and has a 1-3ft crawl space under the main floor. Just a dirt floor. Luckily a dry area and no water under there. A bit more height would be better because some plumbing is under there.
> 
> Our neighbour's house is new. It too has no basement. They may call it a walk out basement, but really the lower floor is just a concrete slab just above grade. Perimeter foundations go down to frost or rock level.


My previous house was a split level with a full basement underneath one side and a partial (crawl space) where the horizontal oil furnace was installed with the well water pump.pressure tank etc. It had a sump hole with a sump pump.

One spring a few years ago the sump pump float switch jammed up..it was one these these old fashioned ones with a float in the sump hole and a the motor up 30 inches on a pipe.

Overnight there was 3 inches of water in the entire basement. Fortunately, I finished off the son's bedroom downstairs on 2x4 false floor so the only thing we had to do was to replace the carpets that were on the cement floor. 
Insurance covered that at the time, but I'm not sure if they still will now.



> If we were to build a new house, I think I would look at ways to avoid having a basement. Never really dry, musty smells, rely on sump pumps and chance of sewer back up. On plus side, you get some "free" space for storage, furnace room, workshop and sometimes a family room. All good until the floods come


Basements are good for workshops, office space and that bedroom for teenagers sometimes. Given the choice of having a basement or not, I would definitely still prefer a basement..as long as it's not on a flood plain, because you won't even get any flood insurance these days.

A lot has changed in recent years in the insurance industry.


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## wraphter (Sep 21, 2016)

caverman said:


> 2017 Great flood of Eastern Ontario/Gatineau
> Natural disasters seemed to be more common every year somewhere in Canada.
> Climate change it's being blamed on..and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
> In 2013 it was the Calgary floods. Last year it was Fort Mac burned to a crisp due to wildfires.
> ...


Hey Mr. Skippy Peanut butter! Mr 911 Conspiracy theorist! 

I am doing a public service by contradicting you. You don't get to spread your anti-science without a rebuttal.

The title of this thread is " 2017 Great Flood of Eastern Ontario/Gatineau" .

You clearly set the parameters of discussion as bass player said when you talked about some blaming it on climate change,2013 Calgary floods, Fort Mac. 

Now you saying this thread is to be limited to insurance and wet basements. I don't think so.

Anyone who says that 911 was a conspiracy has to be opposed. You don't get a free ride .


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

wraphter said:


> Hey Mr. Skippy Peanut butter! Mr 911 Conspiracy theorist!
> 
> I am doing a public service by contradicting you. You don't get to spread your anti-science without a rebuttal.
> 
> ...


^+1 

besides, who ever said the OP gets to police the conversation; if it diverges for a moment (which it didn't in this case.. the climate change aspect is very much on topic), it usually gets back on track, no need to be a bully about it.

The OP has done this same all caps whining about thread-jacking before on other threads. IMHO when you start a new thread over every new headline (which is perfectly fine btw) you don't get to police the content if it happens to drift a bit.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Basements are must here on the prairies. If you have seen a plow wind or funnel cloud, you wont worry too much about the flooding potential.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

tygrus said:


> Basements are must here on the prairies. If you have seen a plow wind or funnel cloud, you wont worry too much about the flooding potential.


Tornadoes.. a great reason to have a basement. Something we can probably expect to see a lot more of due to.. am I allowed to say it?
oh to hell with it.. *CLIMATE CHANGE !!* :bull_head:


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

tygrus said:


> Basements are must here on the prairies. If you have seen a plow wind or funnel cloud, you wont worry too much about the flooding potential.


I see your point. Maybe they should have more of them down in Oklahoma and others in the tornado alley! Frame houses could also be the problem in areas such as yours and theirs. Maybe in such areas at least part of house should be built from masonry but don't necessarily need a below ground basement. Seems they are thinking about this problem in the South. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...-safety-basement-protection-help-engineering/

But we are a bit off topic


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

A nearby town recently was hit by a tornado here in my area of southern ontario (not in a tornado alley). 

It totally shredded solid brick stuctures to nothing, so I don't think having a masonry stucture is protection enough to preclude a basement or some other sort of protection if one is concerned.

Off topic maybe, (sorry Carverman), but to all the climate change deniers here, why not build a nice thatch house w/o a basement on top of a hill, no need to ever worry about soggy basements again :encouragement: :evilgrin:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Climate change, super volcanoes, earthquakes, tornadoes, meteors. terrorists, and conservative governments........

It is too much to deal with. Pass the Skippys.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

tygrus said:


> You still trust a body who doctored their own data?


http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2607126


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

mrPPincer said:


> Off topic maybe, (sorry Carverman), but to all the climate change deniers here, why not build a nice thatch house w/o a basement on top of a hill, no need to ever worry about soggy basements again :encouragement: :evilgrin:


No one denies climate change...but some deny the level of man's impact.

Why do those who don't drink the Kool-Aid have to move? We're not worried about our homes. The ones who should move are all the alarmists still clinging to their ocean front properties....but they don't seem to be in any hurry to get rid of a property soon to be under water


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> Look peep-hole. I started this thread on a specific topic. If you want to discuss climate change than start a new thread ... I don't like thread hijackers!



there's no rule that says an OP who launches a new thread subsequently gets to control it, or even retain any special influence over it.

imho a new thread is 100% gifted to the forum, ie all of its ownership transfers immediately to the collective. Everyone is free to post whatever they choose. Episodes of brainstormng & even creative chaos can follow. The sole judge is the moderator.

that's what i've always believed. Can anyone find a rule that says otherwise.


.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

mrPPincer said:


> ... besides, who ever said the OP gets to police the conversation; if it diverges for a moment (which it didn't in this case.. the climate change aspect is very much on topic), it usually gets back on track, no need to be a bully about it ...


For some ... for other threads, I have abandoned them as they seem to wander back on topic or the on topic info is so low, it's not worth the effort IMO.




humble_pie said:


> there's no rule that says an OP who launches a new thread subsequently gets to control it, or even retain any special influence over it.
> 
> imho a new thread is 100% gifted to the forum, ie all of its ownership transfers immediately to the collective. Everyone is free to post whatever they choose. Episodes of brainstormng & even creative chaos can follow. The sole judge is the moderator ...


*shrug* ... where there's enough brain storming and too little info, eventually some will skip the section and possibly the board itself.


Cheers


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## SMK (Dec 10, 2015)

Sad to see the images on the news.

Mr.PPincer, hill living can be treacherous, too. I got rid of some dream living after the devastating 2004 tsunami.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Climate change, super volcanoes, earthquakes, tornadoes, meteors. terrorists, and conservative governments........
> 
> It is too much to deal with. Pass the Skippys.


 ... amen. LOL!


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

SMK said:


> Sad to see the images on the news.
> 
> Mr.PPincer, hill living can be treacherous, too. I got rid of some dream living after the devastating 2004 tsunami.


SMK, I'm so sorry to have made a joke of it now. At least you weren't on the coast during the tsunami (an assumption. or you wouldn't be here today?).

(added.. I've always been low income, but after that tsunami I gave 2K to the red cross, may not seem much, but a lot to me at the time).


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> For some ... for other threads, I have abandoned them as they seem to wander back on topic or the on topic info is so low, it's not worth the effort IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who is the arbiter of when a thread is on-topic or off-topic. Who decides if there is too much brain storming, or too little information, or too much comedy etc? 

Nobody, that's who. Not the OP and not any other member of the forum. 

This is the general section. These threads will take twists and turns as they meander towards an inevitable non conclusion. *shrug*


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

mrPPincer said:


> A nearby town recently was hit by a tornado here in my area of southern ontario (not in a tornado alley).
> 
> It totally shredded solid brick stuctures to nothing, so I don't think having a masonry stucture is protection enough to preclude a basement or some other sort of protection if one is concerned.


It's true that masonry structures in Goderich were damaged. But there is masonry and then there is masonry! Most of the masonry buildings damaged in Goderich were old style brick buildings built with no thought of withstanding a tornado. Concrete blocks with reinforcing rods down through cavities and then concrete poured in are another form of masonry and could be used during initial building of part of a home intended for tornado protection. FEMA even offer a plan on how to build such a shelter! 

Tornadoes of sufficient strength to cause damage are very rare in Ontario and even in Canada as a whole. Records show that only nine medium to large size Canadian cities have been hit by tornadoes of sufficient strength to cause large-scale damage and fatalities: Regina (1912); Windsor (1946 and 1974); Sarnia (1953); Sudbury (1970); Woodstock (1979); London (1984); Barrie (1985); Edmonton (1987); and Goderich (2011). So a little different than living in Tornado alley.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

^cool, but, don't anybody be thinking that a brick house can withstand that kind of force. 
Those old brick houses and triple-bricked commercial buildings were built solider than to modern specs and even so didn't stand a chance in front of a full-blown tornado in Goderich.
Some of those brick houses were not just damaged, they were completely leveled to a mound, with bricks scattered down the road.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Oh ****, off topic again, we're supposed to be talking about Carverman's basement, and whether or not his furnace is ok.
carverman, has your furnace been exposed to too much humidity over the last few days? that could be a total disaster. :apthy: sorry, jk


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Solid single poured reinforced concrete basement on piles and in the earth will survive anything this planet has to throw at it. Probably even a nuke.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Have you even experienced life beyond of the prairies?

There is a little thing called potential energy that increases with variations in elevation.. because physics. Imagine even a small piece of a mountain sliding into a poured concrete basement.. 



> the energy possessed by a body by virtue of its position relative to others, stresses within itself, electric charge, and other factors.


It seems evident to me that a great majority of the people who down play climate change happen to live where the Earth is flat as far as the eye can see and the climate is relatively benign..

Not everyone can watch their dog run away for days


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

m3s said:


> Have you even experienced life beyond of the prairies?


So climate change is going to start rockslides all over the planet? Boy, this gets more and more serious all the time. ride: We better invent a new tax.

I was talking about weather. And if you think the climate here is "benign" boy do I have news for you.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I've lived in the prairies. And on most continents. Enough to know that mother nature is a force to be reckoned with

One of the most heavily fortified places I lived, reinforced concrete built to support Russian heavy armour warfare, destroyed by a flash flood in hours without warning. A poured concrete basement is a joke by comparison and I can think of a long list the planet can throw at that.

Turn on the news to see all the grown men reduced to tears over a little bit of water. That is your level of naivety.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

.

here is my totally off-topic 2nd annual springtime animal reproduction story.

last year it was a pair of red cardinals mating in a cedar hedge outside a bedroom window.

this year, the star is a mother squirrel who built her nest in the kitchen woodshed. These small back door sheds are fixtures in century montreal houses. I have friends who call theirs "the butke." A few people have even renovated larger ones into tiny off-kitchen dining areas.

but mine is still the original 1894 wooden shed. Walls of knotty pine boards. A ceiling. Above, on the 2nd floor, a small balcony.

into the woodshed last fall moved a squirrel. She built her nest among the flower pots on an upper shelf, out of dried leaves & shreds of newspapers that she managed to haul in through an open knot which had fallen out of one of the wall boards.

the nest is too high for me to see it directly. About three weeks ago, i heard the tiniest of newborn squeaks. I don't know how many there are. Of course, i wouldn't go near or disturb them. Besides, a mother animal is likely to attack (bite or scratch) & they say some squirrels are rabid, so we pretty much stay out of the woodshed.

what's entertaining is how, every few days, Mama squirrel pushes a lot of leaves & paper scraps over the edge of the shelf. The debris rains down on the woodshed floor, so i sweep it up. Then Mama brings in new leaves & new newspaper shreds to refurbish her nest.

today there was an elaborate renovation of the still-unseen nest. It went on for more than an hour. Working away in the woodshed, with the inner kitchen door closed, mama squirrel made as much noise as a human being. After she departed, i ventured into the shed & found that the still-unseen offspring were wide awake. My goodness, how much older their voices had become in just three weeks! gone were the newborn squeaks. This baby squirrel or those baby squirrels sounded loud & demanding.

suddenly a large stiff piece of newspaper rose straight up 10 inches in the air & waved around like a sail. Evidently baby or babies were scrambling around.

now i am wondering how to help them get out of the woodshed. Traditionally, a nesting mother will carry her young one by one, in her teeth, out of her nest to ground level. But in this case the only exit is the knothole.

outside the knothole is a sheer drop 10 feet to the ground. Even if the mother could squeeze through the knot with a baby in her teeth, the infant would not be able to make its own way down the vertical wall. The mother can navigate this by expertly clawing her way, but a baby squirrel on its very first promenade would not know what to do.

i'm thinking i'll have to leave the exterior door of the woodshed open all night, so that the squirrel babies can calmly walk themselves out the door. I'll wait until i see them running confidently around on the floor of the shed, though. Because if i leave the door open now, before the baby squirrels are able to walk, for sure some raccoon or even some feral cat is going to get in & eat the tiny squirrels ...

blast urban wildlife can be such a pain

.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

olivaw said:


> Who is the arbiter of when a thread is on-topic or off-topic. Who decides if there is too much brain storming, or too little information, or too much comedy etc?
> ... These threads will take twists and turns as they meander towards an inevitable non conclusion. *shrug*


If it wasn't clear all I can say is carry on with your wanderings.


Cheers


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

HP
We had a Robins nest in the roof joists of our garage. Had to leave the door open for 6 weeks.

Another time, kits were in the ash clean out of our poolside fireplace. We were just patient and momma moved them within a week. Some of the joys of suburban GTA living.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> If it wasn't clear all I can say is carry on with your wanderings.
> 
> 
> Cheers


You omitted an important sentence when you quoted me: _This is the general section _. 

Plodders may find themselves more at home in the Financial Topic section.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

olivaw said:


> You omitted an important sentence when you quoted me: _This is the general section _.
> Plodders may find themselves more at home in the Financial Topic section.


Odd considering it was the Financial Topics where the wandering, repetition etc. bothered me first. 
From my POV ... it's all the same pile. :wink:


Cheers


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Odd considering it was the Financial Topics where the wandering, repetition etc. bothered me first.
> From my POV ... it's all the same pile. :wink:
> 
> 
> Cheers


I understand. Perhaps we talking about different things. My interest was in supporting those who engaged in the good natured teasing of Carver about his Peep-Hole post. He started this thread in the General Discussion section and referenced floods, fires and climate change. That suggest to me that he was looking for a general discussion about floods, fires and climate change. 

If he had posted it in the Real Estate section, it might have been more reasonable to expect people to think he was interested in house insurance and transfer disclosure. 

I read most of the threads in General Financial, Investing, Frugality and Retirement. TBH, I have never noticed those topics going off course, at least not excessively.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

olivaw said:


> I understand. Perhaps we talking about different things. My interest was in supporting those who engaged in the good natured teasing of Carver about his Peep-Hole post. He started this thread in the General Discussion section and referenced floods, fires and climate change. *That suggest to me that he was looking for a general discussion about floods, fires and climate change*.
> 
> If he had posted it in the Real Estate section, it might have been more reasonable to expect people to think he was interested in house insurance and transfer disclosure.
> 
> I read most of the threads in General Financial, Investing, Frugality and Retirement. TBH, I have never noticed those topics going off course, at least not excessively.


Thread title was (and still is as I cant change it now) * 2017 Great flood of Eastern Ontario/Gatineau.*

NOT: Forest fires (we don't have them here in the Ottawa area)
nor General financial musings or Skippy peanut butter..or any other non related subject matter.

CARVERMANS rules, (as I didn't see in the FAQ rules on postings)
1. I originated this thread for a SPECIFIC TOPIC...rolleyes2:

2. as already mentioned, (thread hijackers) ..please stay on topic..this means:
FLOOD INFORMATION (including flooded basements)
EFFECTS of floods on low lying properties and future resale values
The situation with FLOOD INSURANCE on properties that have been flooded already

*Key words for those that can't read or have a hard time to stay on* topic

*FLOODS, FLOODING, FLOODED* and flooded basements, help from the provinces, and perhaps touching on climate change and how it is affecting us in the near period. 
Some levity is permissible
Thank you for your co-operation. That is all. :wink:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> Thread title was (and still is as I cant change it now) * 2017 Great flood of Eastern Ontario/Gatineau.*
> 
> NOT: Forest fires (we don't have them here in the Ottawa area)
> nor General financial musings or Skippy peanut butter..or any other non related subject matter.
> ...




"some levity is permissible"
permissible to whom ? :biggrin:

now let me tell you this story about what i found in my basement when i went down there this morning ... :tongue-new:


.


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## wraphter (Sep 21, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> It seems fasnionable to blame climate change for everything....notwithstanding there have been natural disasters for decades/centuries. Frequency and size may be increasing and that is to be expected with increased 'energy' in the 'sink'. How much of that is manmade and how much is the natural evolution of the planet still coming out of the last ice age remains, in my mind, open for debate.
> 
> I've seen enough articles to believe we have come out of a particular benign and docile sweet spot (200 years?) in the planet's continuous cycle of change and that amplifies the hand wringing over recent events. The only constant is change. Best we recognize it and be prepared to roll with the punches.


Above is the post that started the discussion about climate change. The poster attempts to cast doubt on human-caused global warming. OP did not tell him to stay on-topic. He allowed him to express his controversial opinion with no consequences. Yet when I express a contrary opinion ,I am rebuked and mocked.

How come when a poster states an anti-global warming position (AltaRed) there is no consequences and when a poster expresses a pro-global warming position 
he is penalized (moi)?

Rules must be enforced consistently. This was not the case here. It seems reasonable to conclude that discussion of topics related to the recent flooding are permitted.


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## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

wraphter said:


> How come when a poster states an anti-global warming position (AltaRed) there is no consequences and when a poster expresses a pro-global warming position
> he is penalized (moi)?


When your opinion is questioned, that's not penalization. AltaRed simply stated that the debate is not settled, which is a fact. You state that dangerous warming has been proven beyond a doubt even though there is plenty of doubt in the scientific community, and even though no one can predict the future climate.

As for climate change and insurance...insurance companies will use any excuse to raise their rates or to deny a claim. It's not surprising that they may choose to get on the climate change bandwagon if it will increase revenues.


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## wraphter (Sep 21, 2016)

^






carverman said:


> Look peep-hole. I started this thread on a specific topic. If you want to discuss climate change than start a new thread.
> I don't like people that lurk around,and throw their crap around as TROLLs and that is what you are.
> and I don't like thread hijackers!


As you can see bass player ,calling somebody a peep-hole(sic) and "throwing their crap around as TROLLs" is not exactly a compliment.

Now he has changed the parameters of this thread to include climate change ,"perhaps".




carverman said:


> FLOODS, FLOODING, FLOODED and flooded basements, help from the provinces, and perhaps touching on climate change and how it is affecting us in the near period.


It gets confusing, you know. Just the "near period"? Not permanently?


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Just reminding everyone of Carverman's first and last paragraphs in this thread so far: 



carverman said:


> Natural disasters seemed to be more common every year somewhere in Canada.
> Climate change it's being blamed on..and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
> In 2013 it was the Calgary floods. Last year it was Fort Mac burned to a crisp due to wildfires.





carverman said:


> *FLOODS, FLOODING, FLOODED* and flooded basements, help from the provinces, and perhaps touching on climate change and how it is affecting us in the near period.
> Some levity is permissible
> Thank you for your co-operation. That is all. :wink:


Thank you for clarifying Carver. I had planned to discuss an embarrassing rash but I now understand that it would be off topic for this thread. :wink:


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Let me try to return to the main (or maybe now secondary) topic. The flood in the Ottawa/Gatineau is really extraordinary for Ottawa. First they were comparing it to the 1974 one. Now they are talking 1920. We have three rivers and a canal converging downtown. The Ottawa Citizen is full of flood stories. Also advice from experts: do not build on the flood plain and keep your flood maps current. No kidding.

The problem is people are fighting such City actions. In Ottawa, a few years back there was a big story about a faceless bureaucrat from the City Hall trying to prevent an eager developer from creating so needed construction jobs. This was on a flimsy pretext; there was a small creek nearby, which, according to bureaucrat’s (wrong and outdated software) could become a river. I do not remember the end of this story, hope it ended well for the residents.

There is also a story what the flood victims can expect from Ontario. Up to 90% of losses in a not-insurance-covered principal residence (no cottage/rental), with 250k limit, can be covered by the Province. The frustrated residents ask “What if we rebuild our homes and this happens again next year? Can City assure that a jacked-up house will be safe?" The personal stories and the damage are often heartbreaking, but shouldn’t faceless bureaucrats be allowed to veto such rebuilding? Are they allowed, are they vetoing?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

olivaw said:


> Just reminding everyone of Carverman's first and last paragraphs in this thread so far:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You should be using "Ban my Rash ointment...which is what I use. 

Unfortunately it doesn't ban hijackers of threads on this forum,so I still have to bear the irritations when this 
happens, which can affect my concious thinking to respond in rash replies.... sometimes.:bi_polo:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^


at the risk of embarassing goose bumps, i'll post an update on Mama squirrel & her still unseen brood, which may consist of one squirrelet or one squirrelette or possibly several of em

evidently Maman exhausted herself with her mega spring cleaning yesterday. It was a total renovation. That rodent made more noise than a chimney sweep. I swear i heard her wielding a tiny vacuum cleaner.

today Maman is nowhere to be seen. I passed through the woodshed since it's the only rear exit into the backyard. On the way back i could hear subdued small squeaks coming from the nest on the high shelf. OMG, she isn't even bothering to feed them today?


(signed)
hijack hazelnut pie

.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> now let me tell you this story about what i found in my basement when i went down there this morning ...


A relocated family of squirrels, peut-être?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Parkuser said:


> *Let me try to return to the main (or maybe now secondary) topic. *The flood in the Ottawa/Gatineau is really extraordinary for Ottawa. First they were comparing it to the 1974 one. Now they are talking 1920. We have three rivers and a canal converging downtown. The Ottawa Citizen is full of flood stories. Also advice from experts: do not build on the flood plain and keep your flood maps current. No kidding.


Thank you. 



> The problem is people are fighting such City actions. In Ottawa, a few years back there was a big story about a faceless bureaucrat from the City Hall trying to prevent an eager developer from creating so needed construction jobs. This was on a flimsy pretext; there was a small creek nearby, which, according to bureaucrat’s (wrong and outdated software) could become a river. I do not remember the end of this story, hope it ended well for the residents.


Wonder if this was about Clarence Creek-Rockland which was underwater, with a lot of evacuations and
still is today.



> There is also a story what the flood victims can expect from Ontario.* Up to 90% of losses in a not-insurance-covered principal residence (no cottage/rental), with 250k limit, can be covered by the Province.* The frustrated residents ask “What if we rebuild our homes and this happens again next year? Can City assure that a jacked-up house will be safe?" The personal stories and the damage are often heartbreaking, but shouldn’t faceless bureaucrats be allowed to veto such rebuilding? Are they allowed, are they vetoing?


 Good point you made. Rebuilding the house or basement is not the entire solution for prevention in future years. Apparently, according to
CTV, this is the worst flooding that has happened in 30 years. That would be around 1987, 1988. I don't remember the specifics of the flooded areas back then. 

At least there are SOME out there that share the pain of the flood victims. City of Ottawa and CRA on tax payments at least.
At least 500 homeowners have been forced out of their homes to emergency shelters because the electricity had to be cut off, when their basements flooded high enough that it was unsafe, never mind the drinking water/sewer contamination.



> Residents, business owners and first responders who are unable to file their returns or pay their taxes on time because of flooding can apply for taxpayer relief, the CRA said Tuesday.
> 
> They can make their requests online, by using Form RC4288, Request for Taxpayer Relief


Nice of CRA to be sympathetic to the flood victims,but unless everyone displaced has a laptop and accessibility to wi-fi where they are staying, some may not be able to apply for the relief. 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-flood-victims-property-tax-relief-1.4106488

In 2015, the ottawa citizen ran this story that Ottawa is the most "flood proof" city in Canada. Two years later they were proven wrong.
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-rated-most-flood-proof-city-in-canada



> We have backup supplies of fuel and electricity. Among all the 15 cities in the survey, it says, “only the City of Ottawa indicated that sustainment of redundant power supply is included in the budget process.”





> Ottawa rated an A-minus. All other cities got a B-plus or lower. Toronto and Montreal each got B-minus and Halifax finished last, with a D.


Good to know.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> A relocated family of squirrels, peut-être?



gosh no, there have never been any animals in the basement other than the teenagers

we read that there are big increases in animal aggressions against humans in recent years & we read that this is related to climate change, because the animals are being forced out of their traditional hunting grounds in search of food.

seagoing wolf, how are you finding all the land & sea creatures these days, in the faraway western isles? has the water level risen? is the high tide mark higher this spring?

.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Premier of Ontario toured the flooded Ottawa area this week, has mentioned that some financial relief may be forthcoming from the Disaster Recovery Fund but only for principal residences.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/cottage-owners-ontario-disaster-relief-1.4105469



> In order to qualify for funds under Ontario's Disaster Recovery Assistance Program, the damaged property must be a primary residence and not a secondary one like a cottage.





> *Private flood insurance brand new, rare.*
> The Insurance Board of Canada said there is actually so-called "overland" flood insurance, as opposed to the sewer backup insurance many people have.
> 
> The reason it's brand new in Canada is it's very difficult to assess the risk and therefore to price it … In order to provide it we've had to map the entire country for flood risk, then individual companies are determining how [they] roll out these policies to our customers in a way that's affordable."


 so it seems that if you live on a flood plain, you may be able to get some insurance for overland water, subject to a $$ limitation, I would expect, similar to sewer backup riders available now.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

wasn't Bytown - original name for ottawa - founded by the lumber lords as a temporary shack camp on swampland at the confluence of the 3 rivers

.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^

Not unless one is re-writing history to exclude Lieutenant-Colonel John By, who in 1826, was recalled out of retirement to leverage his engineering to supervise the construction of the Rideau Canal. Task one was to build a settlement for the canal builders plus the supports needed, which ended up being called Bytown - until being renamed for the Ottawa river.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_By


Cheers


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> gosh no, there have never been any animals in the basement other than the teenagers
> 
> we read that there are big increases in animal aggressions against humans in recent years & we read that this is related to climate change, because the animals are being forced out of their traditional hunting grounds in search of food.
> 
> ...


At the risk of raising carver's ire about hijacked threads, I'll comment. But I'll try to maintain some flood connection. First my own squirrel story.

In a Vancouver house once upon a time I used a spare second-floor bedroom as an office. One day, I heard a faint squeaking sound from a closet. I opened and saw nothing, but there was a small door at the back of the closet that I opened. There, nestled in the pink fibreglass attic insulation, were 4 tiny pink qrey squirrel babies. I decided to let them be until they got bigger. 

When they got somewhat grown, I got the bright idea to relocate the whole lot out to a very large carport, which seemed to offer a few choice nesting spots. Mummy squirrel apparently read my mind. While sitting in my office I heard an increased amount of activity coming from the nest. By the time things quieted down and I opened the door, the babes were gone. Mum had picked them up one by one and relocated them to a part of the attic I could not reach. So they got to stay longer. After awhile, they would venture out of the hole under the eaves where they had gained access. I was looking up at that area from the side yard at one point and saw one of the youngsters clinging to the stucco wall below the eaves. The poor critter looked a bit scared and afraid to move. Clinging to that wall was not as easy as expected. When it sought to retreat it lost its grip and fell into the shrubbery below. No harm done. Just an embarrassed squirrel. With the whole family now more active, I was able to trap the lot over a couple of days. I sealed up the entrance and relocated the family to the University Endowment Lands not far to the west. Oh, I said there would be a flood connection to the story. It could be found in the fact that mum chose an attic nesting site, despite the risk posed by the height. I am sure she wanted an elevated spot in case of a great Vancouver flood. 

As for the sea here, nothing much to report. Looks to be about the same level. We see the highest levels here when an unusual high tide combines with a southeast gale creating what is oft called a "storm surge". Then you will see the tide flooding areas that seldom see water. My impression of this past winter is that water levels here did not go as high as in some other years. Just not quite the right combination. The highest point on our land is about 280 feet above sea level. We have not had to move up to it yet.

As for sea creatures, quite a few sea cucumbers visible in the clear water around our dock right now. Two days ago we decided to catch some prawns, which we have not bothered to do since last year. But we had no more in the freezer. We set 2 traps about 300 feet from the shore in front of the house, an area that has been productive before. Before returning to the dock we decided to see if we could catch a fish for dinner. My wife got a nice red snapper and a ling cod. I hooked something that broke my line long before it got near the boat. Probably a ling and it got lucky because the monofilament line I was using had come over on the Mayflower. We let the prawn traps soak overnight and pulled in the morning. 7 prawns. Nice big ones, but only 7. Should have been more like 70. And a few box crabs. I hope that's not a sign of how this season will go. When I say "season", we can fish them all year, but we only do so in fair weather and freeze some for the not-so-fair-weather days. I am not really discouraged. Prawns move around. A hot spot today can produce nothing tomorrow. Today fishing at 200 feet will be good, tomorrow they'll be at 300. Like all fishing, patience is required. 

We have not gone out for salmon yet this year, but early reports are somewhat promising. Sea lions and dolphins have returned to the area in force and that's a good sign. Orcas are in sight regularly, but no humpbacks for awhile. They seem to move through these waters more in summer. Even that is recent. In our early years here, a humpback sighting was rare. 

As for other wildlife, the local rag reported a cougar sighting up near the school a couple of weeks ago. Looking for a taste of élève du printemps I suppose. We have lost one cat and one laying hen since Christmas. Possibly a cougar, but more likely wolves, just not seagoing wolves. We also lost our only rooster. I forgot to lock up the chicken coop one night after they all went inside to roost. Next morning rooster remains were scattered about on the septic field and the ravens were working on them. Not sure what did that. Cougars and wolves usually grab something like that and leave no trace. A mink will drink the blood and come back for more. A raccoon will also return for more and they are pretty obvious. I do not think an owl flew in and dragged the rooster out. So, a bit of a mystery. Same with the cat. A mystery. She had been here 8 years and was a survivor. Even drove off a bald eagle in one encounter. We still have one cat that's been here 9 years and has not become prey.

I am pleased to report that the dozen or so fruit trees planted over the last few years in our orchard all survived what was a cold wet winter (i.e., more so than usual). They are all in blossom right now and the hummingbirds are taking advantage. Our resident bald eagle pair has returned to their nest in a tall fir overlooking the orchard. They have been raising one or 2 young there for as long as we have lived here. We feel rather privileged to have them choose that spot.

So that's a brief report from the faraway western isles.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i knew about colonel By, as a matter of fact i graduated from the J-school on Colonel By Drive.

but whether built for canal workers or for lumberjacks, the original Bytown settlement was on soggy swampland. Today Dow's Lake remains as a witness. 

the Ottawa city site has always been problematic. Last year a 300-metre downtown stretch of Rideau street collapsed in a sinkhole. When engineers reached the underground tunnel, they found it completely flooded with water. 

montreal has areas that are famous for flooding. Toronto is also suffering. Perhaps the history is that human settlement has always tended to follow natural harbours, bays, river mouths & low-lying areas, in order to take advantage of good shipping transportation. But now there are disturbing consequences & we are not properly prepared for them.

.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Parkuser said:


> There is also a story what the flood victims can expect from Ontario. Up to 90% of losses in a not-insurance-covered principal residence (no cottage/rental), with 250k limit, can be covered by the Province. The frustrated residents ask “What if we rebuild our homes and this happens again next year? Can City assure that a jacked-up house will be safe?" The personal stories and the damage are often heartbreaking, but shouldn’t faceless bureaucrats be allowed to veto such rebuilding? Are they allowed, are they vetoing?


I would rather the municipalities raise property taxes in flood planes than have anyone dictate where someone can and cannot live. Seems to be a lot of well to do people on the waterfronts and they say they enjoy it there. It is a once a century or so event and there were few fatalities so the risk is relatively low. But the price is very high to look after a small proportion of the population who chose to live in a flood plane.

If you want to live in a flood plane you should have to pay. There is an outcry every time taxes are raised and yet there is an expectation by many that the government should do everything for them when there is a crisis. Many seem to expect someone else would sandbag their house and do everything for them. The reaction of many Canadians reflected poorly on their ability to prepare themselves for anything.

It doesn't take a whole lot of foresight to have a pack of sandbags and sump pumps on hand if you live in a flood plane. I keep emergency supplies in the house in case I have to live without power and in case grocery stores don't get restocked (they run out in mere days). I also keep a bug out bag packed ready to leave in short notice. Before it seemed like mostly a hobby but Fort Mac has proven its relevance.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

m3s said:


> I would rather the municipalities raise property taxes in flood planes than have anyone dictate where someone can and cannot live. Seems to be a lot of well to do people on the waterfronts and they say they enjoy it there. It is a once a century or so event and there were few fatalities so the risk is relatively low. But the price is very high to look after a small proportion of the population who chose to live in a flood plane.
> 
> If you want to live in a flood plane you should have to pay. ....


I agree with you 100%. But to what extent it is feasible politically? Waterfront properties can be made very expensive tax-wise (they probably already are getting there); by making such home ownership a sign of a very high net worth adds prestige and is a sign you've arrived. But floodplains? The reason they build now on such grounds is this is a cheap land, thus houses are inexpensive, for regular people who cannot afford to be wiped out. Their stories are heart wrenching. Why person who can afford high property taxes would build there? And once you live there you will fight hard to suppress any bad news because it influences the value of your house. City councillors are financed by developers, depend on their constituents for votes, and are in the job for a relatively short time. They cannot be counted on to do the right thing. One way to save people from themselves is to give veto power to a city engineer. This is tough.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Mukhang pera said:


> ... First my own squirrel story.
> 
> ....


Do you write children's books in your spare time?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Parkuser said:


> Do you write children's books in your spare time?


Can you elaborate on what prompts that question?


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Mukhang pera said:


> Can you elaborate on what prompts that question?
> 
> In a Vancouver house once upon a time I used a spare second-floor bedroom as an office. One day, I heard a faint squeaking sound from a closet. I opened and saw nothing, but there was a small door at the back of the closet that I opened. There, nestled in the pink fibreglass attic insulation, were 4 tiny pink qrey squirrel babies. I decided to let them be until they got bigger.
> 
> When they got somewhat grown, I got the bright idea to relocate the whole lot out to a very large carport, which seemed to offer a few choice nesting spots. Mummy squirrel apparently read my mind. While sitting in my office I heard an increased amount of activity coming from the nest. By the time things quieted down and I opened the door, the babes were gone. Mum had picked them up one by one and relocated them to a part of the attic I could not reach. So they got to stay longer. After awhile, they would venture out of the hole under the eaves where they had gained access. I was looking up at that area from the side yard at one point and saw one of the youngsters clinging to the stucco wall below the eaves. The poor critter looked a bit scared and afraid to move. Clinging to that wall was not as easy as expected. When it sought to retreat it lost its grip and fell into the shrubbery below. No harm done. Just an embarrassed squirrel. With the whole family now more active, I was able to trap the lot over a couple of days. I sealed up the entrance and relocated the family to the University Endowment Lands not far to the west. Oh, I said there would be a flood connection to the story. It could be found in the fact that mum chose an attic nesting site, despite the risk posed by the height. I am sure she wanted an elevated spot in case of a great Vancouver flood.



This paragraph. Children's books usually have almost no text, a sentence on a page plus a large illustration. Reading your post, I could see a first page: a friendly grandfather, sitting at the computer, glasses low on his nose, searching where the noise is coming from. The next page - opening a small door in the ceiling and seeing small squirrels frolicking in the nest. Then squirrel mom moving one after the other (at least 2 pages). The last page would be a friendly grandpa, coffee cup in his hand, watching through the window the squirrel mom on top of a plank fence followed by 4 kids, with small backpacks and even smaller lunchboxes, all happily marching to the squirrel school.

Mind you, my contact with children's books is only on the rare occasion of buying presents, do not take this to the bank.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> *At the risk of raising carver's ire about hijacked threads*, I'll comment. But I'll try to maintain some flood connection.
> 
> First my own squirrel story.




Report submitted to the moderator of this forum.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

I was just writing a large comment on the flood but deleted it after such an insult. Brands do not sucking-up to their customers should go extinct.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> i knew about colonel By, as a matter of fact i graduated from the J-school on Colonel By Drive ...


Then why did you substitute lumber lords instead of By?




humble_pie said:


> ... Last year a 300-metre downtown stretch of Rideau street collapsed in a sinkhole. When engineers reached the underground tunnel, they found it completely flooded with water.


Tends to happen when a water main breaks ... or did you miss the big investigation to figure out if rail construction caused the sink hole that then broke the water main or was a water main rupture the cause of the sink hole?


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> Idiots.



carverman don't u think u should be more careful? you've already been banned once for being such a bad-tempered old rogue & pirate, i'm sure your pm mailbox is plastered with warnings for all the insults you routinely hand out.


insults like the above. Insults like this one below, which whipped up the trouble in this thread:




carverman said:


> Look peep-hole. I started this thread on a specific topic. If you want to discuss climate change than start a new thread.
> 
> I don't like people that lurk around,and throw their crap around as TROLLs and that is what you are.
> 
> and I don't like thread hijackers!


.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

carverman said:


> Idiots.


Don't be like that Carverman, It's all well intentioned fun. 

Perhaps a nice squirrel picture will cheer you up


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> carverman don't u think u should be more careful? you've already been banned once for being such a bad-tempered old rogue & pirate, i'm sure your pm mailbox is plastered with warnings for all the insults you routinely hand out.


insults like the above. Insults like this one below, which whipped up the trouble in this thread: [/quote]
The insults are only directed at idiots..and we know who they are.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

olivaw said:


> Don't be like that Carverman, It's all well intentioned fun.
> 
> Perhaps a nice squirrel picture will cheer you up




The topics again are recent floods and the aftermath of these floods...no friggin' squirrel stories...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> The insults are only directed at idiots..and we know who they are.




puh leeese, no need to label yourself an idiot

you've already been named an old rogue & a pirate, don't you think that is glamourous enough? watering down to the word idiot is a fool's flood ...

.



.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> As for the sea here, nothing much to report. Looks to be about the same level. We see the highest levels here when an unusual high tide combines with a southeast gale creating what is oft called a "storm surge". Then you will see the tide flooding areas that seldom see water. My impression of this past winter is that water levels here did not go as high as in some other years. Just not quite the right combination. The highest point on our land is about 280 feet above sea level. We have not had to move up to it yet.
> 
> As for sea creatures, quite a few sea cucumbers visible in the clear water around our dock right now. Two days ago we decided to catch some prawns, which we have not bothered to do since last year. But we had no more in the freezer. We set 2 traps about 300 feet from the shore in front of the house, an area that has been productive before. Before returning to the dock we decided to see if we could catch a fish for dinner. My wife got a nice red snapper and a ling cod. I hooked something that broke my line long before it got near the boat. Probably a ling and it got lucky because the monofilament line I was using had come over on the Mayflower. We let the prawn traps soak overnight and pulled in the morning. 7 prawns. Nice big ones, but only 7. Should have been more like 70. And a few box crabs. I hope that's not a sign of how this season will go. When I say "season", we can fish them all year, but we only do so in fair weather and freeze some for the not-so-fair-weather days. I am not really discouraged. Prawns move around. A hot spot today can produce nothing tomorrow. Today fishing at 200 feet will be good, tomorrow they'll be at 300. Like all fishing, patience is required.
> 
> ...




what a lovely report. One can smell the salt air, see the pink flowering orchard with its spirit eagles perched on high in the fir tree.

sorry about your rooster & your cat, you will replace them?

does not surprise that missus seagoing wolf is an ace fisherman

.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> carverman don't u think u should be more careful? you've already been banned once for *being such a bad-tempered old rogue & pirate*, i'm sure your pm mailbox is plastered with warnings for all the insults you routinely hand out.
> 
> 
> insults like the above. I*nsults like this one below, which whipped up the trouble in this thread:*


HP , maybe YOU are the troublemaker that has whipped up trouble in this thread?


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

OK, so I want to partially withdraw my general criticism of City Halls regarding NOT banning development on a flood plain. Yesterday CBC had an interview with a mayor of High River (?), AB. They had the cojones to do just that, ban rebuilding the affected houses after the flood. Will Ottawa or Gatineau City Halls raise to the occasion? Doubt it.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> The topics again are recent floods and the aftermath of these floods...no friggin' squirrel stories...


What is interesting about the picture that Olivaw posted - if that is a squirrel - it is wearing a chipmunk fur coat. 

Alternatively, I'd suggest it is in fact a chipmunk. Now it does look a bit 'washed up' which could be a result to the recent floods but I'd suggest it is a youngster that perhaps fell from its perch. Unfortunately it is unlikey the parent will take it back in because it now smells 'human'.
Before that sad prospect results in a flood of tears, rest assured that chipmunks are not endangered.

As to the flooding, the night went well but the flood watch area has been expanded as water levels in Lake Okanagon are at record levels and there is still a lot of snow pack to melt.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Unfortunately it is unlikey the parent will take it back in because it now smells 'human'.


But only in the flooded areas. Not on a dry land.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-birds-abandon-young-at-human-touch/


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Parkuser said:


> Yesterday CBC had an interview with a mayor of High River (?), AB. They had the cojones to do just that, ban rebuilding the affected houses after the flood. Will Ottawa or Gatineau City Halls raise to the occasion? Doubt it.


Saw that as well. But also in much of the province people were allowed to rebuild in the flood planes at their own risk.. so apparently there will be no government compensation if/when it happens again.. Can't imagine their home insurance will be cheap


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> What is interesting about the picture that Olivaw posted - if that is a squirrel - it is wearing a chipmunk fur coat.


Good catch. Chipmunks are part of the squirrel family (Sciuridae) but they are not the same species as ground squirrels and tree squirrels. Carver caught it when he mentioned Chippy the Chipmunk but he deleted that portion of his post after he realized that he was in violation of his private rule about strict topic adherence.  

I can't speak to the Gatineau flood of 2017, but I am familiar with the Alberta flood of 2013. I was very proud of the way the people, the city, and the provincial government worked together to see each other through the flood and to rebuild. The Stampede grounds were flooded a mere two weeks before the start of the Calgary Stampede. Water was about three metres deep at the worst and was up to the eighth row of seats in the Saddledome. Contaminated sludge left by the flooding was up to a metre deep in some areas. Despite that, the Calgary Stampede opened on time. 

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/show-m...scrambled-to-open-after-2013-floods-1.1894866


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