# lawyer/will question: is this normal?



## faline (Feb 10, 2011)

I had a first meeting with a lawyer to have a will made up. I'm pretty sure he said he'd get back to me within a week with the draft.
Well, that was 3 weeks ago and I haven't heard a peep.

Also, when we met we were interrupted several times when he answered the door, the phone, etc.

At this point I'm tempted to start over with someone else. 

But what if he eventually gets back to me... am I financially committed, since we had the first meeting?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

If you want to start with a new lawyer, I would certainly officially end the relationship with the original lawyer and not wait around hoping he'll go away.

If the original lawyer has done some billable work for you already, I suspect you'll have to pay for it.

ltr


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

faline said:


> I had a first meeting with a lawyer to have a will made up. I'm pretty sure he said he'd get back to me within a week with the draft.
> Well, that was 3 weeks ago and I haven't heard a peep.
> 
> Also, when we met we were interrupted several times when he answered the door, the phone, etc.
> ...


Most lawyers consider will prep to be the lowest priority (unless you are old and sickly). So you are getting the service you deserve. The assistant who is doing the work might be busy with other work. I would send them an email and remind them that you expected a draft by day/date. So is there a problem that you can help with? Stay polite and respectful.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...one of (the major) reasons I dont have a will yet?: 
the dread of possibly having to deal with a lawyer!


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> ...one of (the major) reasons I dont have a will yet?:
> the dread of possibly having to deal with a lawyer!


That might be considered crazy talk by some - hehe.

Seriously, as kcowan points out, this is low priority stuff and so the costs are actually very, very reasonable. It's also quick and painless. You just answer a few questions and then go away and they prepare it for you, assuming you don't have a lot of weird stuff you want. Consider the horror your loved ones will have to go through if you don't have a will. It's hard enough with a will, but without one, it's tough.

ltr


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> That might be considered crazy talk by some - hehe.
> 
> Seriously, as kcowan points out, this is low priority stuff and so the costs are actually very, very reasonable. It's also quick and painless. You just answer a few questions and then go away and they prepare it for you, assuming you don't have a lot of weird stuff you want. Consider the horror your loved ones will have to go through if you don't have a will. It's hard enough with a will, but without one, it's tough.
> 
> ltr


yeah...ours would be simple & straghtfowrd, in what we have & what we want done...
soooo... if simple, why not a DIY will & keep the vultu......er, i mean lawyers out of it...?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> yeah...ours would be simple & straghtfowrd, in what we have & what we want done...
> soooo... if simple, why not a DIY will & keep the vultu......er, i mean lawyers out of it...?


Because you can easily make a mistake that might null the will. It's too cheap to not simply go to the lawyer.

ltr


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ I'm guessing faline's lawyer don't particularly specialize in "wills" and estate planning in which case, he'll get back to you when he deems it suitable/convenient? Which isn't a bad thing because the meter isn't running.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We did all the the prep by email. Lawyer asked us to fill out questionaires that touched on many issues.

Then we met with the lawyer. Reviewed everything. Lawyer made comments, suggestions, and provided data on points of law. Made us think about and reconsider various items. We were in the room for an hour or more. Absolutely no interuptions.

Lawyer sent us a follow on memo of our discussions and conclusions.

Final meeting to review the will,directives etc. That took 30-45 minutes. Only one interuption-when the PA came in with final copies and took our credit card details.

This was the second time doing a will, this time with a different lawyer. The first time went exactly the same way.

We were pleased with the service, the advice, and found the fee to be reasonable.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Similar experience to Ian. It is important to pick a lawyer who says s/he specializes in family law, e.g. estates, wills. Their questions to you about whether you have considered, X, Y and Z are invaluable and what happens if your beneficiaries die before you, does your estate pick up the income taxes on your RRSP/RRIP collapse, or the beneficiary which is especially important if the beneficiaries are different.

Lastly, have all your necessary paperwork ready, e.g. formal names of beneficiaries, addresses so as not to waste time revising drafts... which is all billable hours. Generally speaking, it is good to have POAs, and health directives done at the same time. It's part of their boilerplate package.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

faline said:


> I had a first meeting with a lawyer to have a will made up. I'm pretty sure he said he'd get back to me within a week with the draft.
> Well, that was 3 weeks ago and I haven't heard a peep.
> 
> Also, when we met we were interrupted several times when he answered the door, the phone, etc.
> ...


It sounds like you have retained the lawyer to draft a will, hence you are "financially committed". However, he made have done no work on the will as yet, so little in the way of fees will have been incurred, beyond the time for the first meeting.

It sounds like you are unsure as to exactly what was agreed upon at the first meeting. Was it really a firm commitment to produce a draft within a week? A lawyer with a busy practice is unlikely to agree to same, absent some urgency (such as a terminally ill client). 

A satisfactory solicitor/client relationship is built on trust and good communication. Some element of that appears lacking here. I think there might be some fault on both sides, but probably more with the solicitor. He knows that most clients do not deal with lawyers and legal matters on a regular basis, so he has the greater responsibility to ensure that you are both on the same page. Even in a simple matter, a written retainer agreement is a course of prudence.

The lawyer in question sounds like one carrying on practice on a shoestring as a sole practitioner. When I was at the bar, we had receptionists, switchboard operators, secretaries, office managers & c. to deal with such mundane matters as answering the door and the phone, etc. As soon as the client was in my office and the door was closed, my focus was on the client and there were NO interruptions, unless perhaps the building was ablaze. 

You might want to call up the lawyer and compare notes and clarify your mutual understanding. If, upon mature reflection, you consider the lawyer not the right one for you, be honest and tell him that you would prefer to terminate the retainer and to move your tent. Tell him he will be paid for time reasonably spent. Most lawyers in such a situation will pare the bill to the bone for the sake of goodwill, since you will be walking away having obtained little or nothing of value.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

A friend of ours just died in her early 60s of an overnight medical incident with no priors. She lived full-time in Mexico and owns a condo, furnishings and car among other things. Her best friends there know she is not close to her Lithuanian relatives. Nothing will be done to the body until an executor or relative comes forward. Don't die intestate! It is events like this that underscore the need for a will not matter how simple. We suspect she would hav left everything to a Mexican charity.


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## faline (Feb 10, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Most lawyers consider will prep to be the lowest priority (unless you are old and sickly). So you are getting the service you deserve. The assistant who is doing the work might be busy with other work. I would send them an email and remind them that you expected a draft by day/date. So is there a problem that you can help with? Stay polite and respectful.


The service I "deserve"? $400 might not be a lot to many forum members but it is to me. I'm almost certain I was told I'd get a draft the following week. Just because this is low priority for a high rolling lawyer I'm not sure why I don't deserve less than.... I don't know... whatever pays more.

I do appreciate the feedback though.


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## faline (Feb 10, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I will sit tight for now and extra hope I don't die. 

Whenever he feels I deserve some attention I will sure to be polite


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We dealt with a lawyer whose practice area was wills and estates. Both times.

Very happy with the services rendered-both times. I have no issue paying for good advice. Not so much concerned with the hourly rate as I am with the bottom line.

If you are unhappy with the process so far why not sit down and discuss it with your lawyer. Give him/her a chance to address your concerns and perhaps reset the expectations on both sides.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

The OP's lawyer sounds like douche bag to me. Poor communication, not very timely, multiple interruption on the initial visit, etc. Voice your dissatisfaction and move on. You shouldn't have to pay a dime IMHO. 

As mentioned above, find someone who specializes in will and estate planning.

Low priority is BS, you deserve just as much respect as any other paying customer. Run Forest, run...


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## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

faline said:


> I had a first meeting with a lawyer to have a will made up. I'm pretty sure he said he'd get back to me within a week with the draft.
> Well, that was 3 weeks ago and I haven't heard a peep.
> 
> Also, when we met we were interrupted several times when he answered the door, the phone, etc.
> ...


A will is the most cookie cutter thing a lawyer can do. It's on the lowest priority but should be easy/fast to complete. Unless you got alot of sprawling business interests which requires a more complex will i'd suggest you go to Walmart and get one done for cheap. . . How much are you paying for the Will?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I do not know your circumstances but I do know this. A properly drawn up will by an experienced wills and estates lawyer can save your estate much grief and potentially many thousands of dollars in legal fees after your death. There are wills, and then there are properly drawn up wills that significantly reduce the chances of disputes and/or litigation after your passing. The same goes for professional accounting and tax advice.

It is unclear why anyone would think that a will is a cookie cutter job without understanding the family dynamics and the financial issues, let alone the differences between provinces. It may well be....but it might not.

I personally feel that having your affairs in order, a proper will, and pre arranged funeral details are the some of the kindest things that you can do for the loved ones that you leave behind.

If you are going to the trouble of engaging professional advice why cheap out? Get the very best you possibly can. Ask friends and associates for recommendations. Focus on results, not cost. We have done this in the past two instances where we needed advice/direction. It proved itself to be the right path time and time again.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

ian said:


> I do not know your circumstances but I do know this. A properly drawn up will by an experienced wills and estates lawyer can save your estate much grief and potentially many thousands of dollars in legal fees after your death. There are wills, and then there are properly drawn up wills that significantly reduce the chances of disputes and/or litigation after your passing. The same goes for professional accounting and tax advice.
> 
> It is unclear why anyone would think that a will is a cookie cutter job without understanding the family dynamics and the financial issues, let alone the differences between provinces. It may well be....but it might not.
> 
> ...




^^ words of wisdom writ upon stone

imho there's no such thing as a cookie cutter will. Not even for a young unmarried with no children

every family is different & an experienced estate solicitor will know to ask the questions that will draw out all the "what-if" scenarios.

what if our YUM/NK has 2 brothers making their way successfully in life plus a sister married to someone who can't earn a dime? let's say sister is having a real challenging time working full-time with 2 kids in day care & after-school programs, plus a husband to support. 

here's where a knowledgeable solicitor can be of expert help. YUM/NK might want to leave all to sister, but what if sister predeceases & YUM/NK's legacy passes to the ne-er-do-well spouse? wouldn't it be better for YUM/NK's estate to be configured in such a way that, if sister predeceases, the funds will be used strictly to support & educate sister's 2 minor children?

here's where your bar association specialized member can provide appropriate suggestions whereas a walmart DIY will kit cannot.

ian, altaRed, MP & others who have found good lawyers or are themselves good lawyers, have the right answer. Do this one up properly. It's worth the fees.

PS faline, if time goes by & you decide you really really want to dump maitre-X-with-the-busy-front-door, MP has some good suggestions upthread. Be respectful. Simply let him know you've decided not to proceed. Figure out how much time you spent in his office. You probably know his hourly fee, or you should have some idea. Offer him an amount on the low side of fair fee (chalk this loss up to your own experience)

if he's a wise man, he'll take the settlement, because trying to pursue you for a few more $$ would be a losing game for him.

don't wait too long though, because once he produces that last wlll & testament, you will owe him for it.

.


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## Fain87 (Jan 20, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> ^^ words of wisdom writ upon stone
> 
> imho there's no such thing as a cookie cutter will. Not even for a young unmarried with no children
> 
> ...


Your making it more complicated than it is. If he lives a simple life and has straightforward assets. Wills are extremely easy to do and are usually ironclad. If the OP is 90+ years old and is writting a fresh-will in diminished mental capacity then maybe go for someone pricier. Otherwise, no need to pay extra. 

Wills are the lowest form of legal work and saying otherwise is complete bull. T.V. shows give you an exaggerated view of how many times a will is contested. 99% of wills pass through probate without issue. Something i can attest to personally with working with Estate situations previously. 

Save your money.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Fain87 said:


> Your making it more complicated than it is. *If he lives a simple life and has straightforward assets*. Wills are extremely easy to do and are usually ironclad. If the OP is 90+ years old and is writting a fresh-will in diminished mental capacity then maybe go for someone pricier. Otherwise, no need to pay extra.
> 
> Wills are the lowest form of legal work and saying otherwise is complete bull. T.V. shows give you an exaggerated view of how many times a will is contested. 99% of wills pass through probate without issue. Something i can attest to personally with working with Estate situations previously.
> 
> Save your money.


My emphasis. Of course it is situational. My brother is single, has no progeny, I am his only sibling and his assets are simple, e.g. a few investment and bank accounts, house and furnishings, vehicles, personal goods. A two page Will will do as long as he covers his two nephews properly in event of me predeceasing him. A very different story if there are business interests, children, perhaps a blended family of various children and grandchildren, common law spouse, etc.

So it is a little cavalier to say 99% pass through probate without issue. It is that 1% that can burn up an estate in the courts. I've seen that happen with friends AND extended family. So.... it is situational. I sure don't know the OP's affairs so I am not going to speculate either.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The thing is.....I would prefer that my will be one of the 99 percent, not one of the 1 percent. And I would prefer that it not be challenged.

We know at least two people who would be classified as low income. Both live in Vancouver area and own their own homes in very good areas. Those homes, or rather the land on which they sit, are worth $2-2.5 million each. The homes are knockdowns.

It may seem to some that a will might not be necessary. But wait unit the property is appraised and sells for 2.5 and then see who and what comes out of the woodwork. Probate fees on the just the home would be about $35K if the estate was not organized properly.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

My brother had a holographic will hand-written in his night stand. It presented no problem. The only glitch was that he wanted his ashes interred in his parent gravesite. For some unknown reason, that took 3 months.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Where do people usually keep the original will? Is it normal to keep it at the lawyer's office? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the original is important and will be needed later.

What happens with an elderly lawyer who dies while in possession of the client's original will? (The will has been completed and signed, and I mean it is filed away at the law office). Does this create confusion about where the original goes, and how it is found later?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

In many cases, the lawyer's office keeps the original Will in safekeeping, but it varies depending on the lawyer and personal wishes. If a single office lawyer ceases to practice, it is normal for the files to be turned over to another practicing lawyer who might 'buy the business' which is just another way of buying a potential client list and the files that go along with those clients. My will is with a multi-lawyer firm so it will be an ongoing business in some form for a long time. My spouse keeps her original at home with the main risk there being a fire where everything could be lost.

It is important for the Executor to know where the Will is to avoid a 'hunt'. My executors know where my Will is located and with which lawyer in my 'Instructions to Executor' letter that I update whenever there is a change. I am a named Executor for 2 individuals and they have given me their 'Instructions to Executor' letters too. There is a lot of information that could/should be in such letters, e.g. where keys are, lock combinations, any SDB, names and location of financial accounts, funeral instructions, disposition of personal goods, etc.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

In BC, at least, Vital Statistics Agency maintains a wills registry. 

Here's some info:

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/life-events/death-and-bereavement/wills-registry

In BC, usual practice is for the law office where the will was completed to retain the original and to file a wills notice, so the will can be located. But a client is free to keep the original and do with it as they see fit.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> In BC, at least, Vital Statistics Agency maintains a wills registry.
> 
> Here's some info:
> 
> ...


In our case, spouse filed her own wills notice with Vital Statistics and said the Will was kept at home.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Where do people usually keep the original will? Is it normal to keep it at the lawyer's office?


Have your lawyer draft up a few signed copies and keep one for your file. One of our lawyers lost a deceased family members original / only signed copy. Executors left with an unsigned copy only! Luckily things went smoothly despite the missing will. 

Another lawyer misplaced / lost 5 yrs of corporate minutes. 

Make sure you have a back up and don't rely solely on a lawyer for "safekeeping'. Same goes for your Accountant.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Synergy said:


> Have your lawyer draft up a few signed copies and keep one for your file. One of our lawyers lost a deceased family members original / only signed copy. Executors left with an unsigned copy only! Luckily things went smoothly despite the missing will.
> 
> Another lawyer misplaced / lost 5 yrs of corporate minutes.
> 
> Make sure you have a back up and don't rely solely on a lawyer for "safekeeping'. Same goes for your Accountant.


Interesting, thanks. The reason I asked is that as an Executor, I have access to digital scans of Wills including signatures (so that's a photocopy) which are kept in an encrypted data vault. Originals are at the lawyer's office.

Is this scan/copy enough of a safety?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

^ A copy is likely your best option. In the event the original was "lost" or "destroyed" accidentally (fire, flood, etc.) you'd have to jump through some hoops but at least you'd have a signed copy on hand. There's no simple solution. Having more than one original poses it's own set of problems and is often not recommended.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Our lawyer is retiring August 15 and so we are shopping. The problem is that the will has been drafted well and is unlikely to be changed until one of us dies. So they will hold the file and have no billable activity.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Interesting, thanks. The reason I asked is that as an Executor, I have access to digital scans of Wills including signatures (so that's a photocopy) which are kept in an encrypted data vault. Originals are at the lawyer's office.
> 
> Is this scan/copy enough of a safety?


I had o invoke my mother’s POA and PD last year. Fortunately, we had asked the lawyer to have a copy AND we asked for an original copy also. I am the executor for my brothers and parents, and I have their copies in my safe. 

I am glad I did, as some banks and institutes asked for the original, some accepted the copy.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

kcowan said:


> Our lawyer is retiring August 15 and so we are shopping. The problem is that the will has been drafted well and is unlikely to be changed until one of us dies. So they will hold the file and have no billable activity.



but you will be paying for other services from the new lawyer, no? otherwise there'd be no need to do the shopping ...

ottomh i don't see why a law firm would not accommodate a good new client when it came to a small matter such as storing new client's wills

on the other hand, your retiring lawyer must be forwarding/selling his practice to his partners or to another solicitor. Won't your will storage feature accompany this transition?

last resort: the home hearth. Does it contain a safe? even better, is it a fireproof safe? plop! in go the 2 wills, at least for a period of time.


.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I might get them to coordinate creation of a Mexican will. We just had a friend die unexpectedly there.


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