# North Korean leader Kim Jong-il dead at 69



## mind_business (Sep 24, 2011)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/north-korean-leader-kim-jong-il-dead-at-69/article2275701/

Hopefully this will lead to some stability in this region.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm sure his 20-something son is a much better dictator?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Kim Sung UN is number "Uno" now. He is the Third son and not the original choice of the father (Kim Jong-il)..the first choice (#1 son) fell into disfavour with the father for
wanting to go to Japan's Disney with his then GF. 
Needless to say, that Kim Sung ? was more interested in the worldly ways than looking after the only "iron curtain state" still left in the world.

Not much is known about son #3 except last year, the father promoted him to "4 star general"..leader of the North Korean army..so that makes him top man in N. Korean military circles (commander in chief?) to making any final political decisions in the future for a (possible) "military solution."

The two sides have are still considered to be technically at war with each other. The only thing holding back the North Koreans is the huge US presence, air bases, and Pacific fleet that can very quickly bring any military attempt at
"re-unification" right into North Korea's front doorstep.

However..we know what happened with North and South Vietnam, East and West Berlin/Germany..so in the future, if both sides agree to some kind of democratic political solution that the US and UN can sanction..who knows..

it may not be in our lifetimes..but then again stranger things have happened in the last 50 years.

I heard on the news channel that the US and North Koreans have agreed to getting food and other consumer commodities into N. Korea, in exchange for halting their nuclear experimentation with "the bomb"...so who knows?

China was a menace about 30-40 years ago, until they became manufacturers of consumer products for the world...and since then they have moderated their relationship with the western powers..so the same may go for N.Korea..

trade is always the key to opening iron gates...

Mode3Sour..you being a military man..what are your views/opinions on the future of North Korea.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> stranger things have happened in the last 50 years.


Yes, all we have to do is look at 2010/2011 for those not old enough to go back 50 years or less.

I agree with an article I read this morning that said that if it weren't for the 'bomb' and their nuclear capability that intimidates the region [as Iran does], North Korea would be a 'non-entity'.

Not surprisingly, China is largely responsible for what NK is today as they are/were great military contributors; defended NK's communism and fought the US in the process, so let's see what the Chinese are prepared to do now for the starving people of NK. 

Communism however, has been largely isolated & weakened, so there is always hope as Mr. Harper said yesterday that Kim's death might bring "positive change allowing the people of North Korea to emerge from six decades of isolation, oppression and misery." 

I was not surprised at the hysterical reaction of the people, but was deeply disturbed at the crying of small children, as young as 3/4. 

Even if below were fake, I saw same images on tv yesterday. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j24nO2iNli8&feature=related


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> I was not surprised at the hysterical reaction of the people, but was deeply disturbed at the crying of small children, as young as 3/4.
> 
> Even if below were fake, I saw same images on tv yesterday.


I don't believe that the emotions shown of the mourners on tv were "faked".
Don't forget that these people have been raised in complete isolation and beliefs based deliberately fabricated misinformation by the regime, which was known for lying deliberately to their people to keep them in control.

One example was their view of economies of countries around the world.
They placed themselves #1, followed by China, #2 and the other countries way down on the list, with the US being last of course..because at least up to now..the US defending SK was their biggest enemy to unification.

If you as a common citizen in NK are denied tv, papers (except for party propaganda) cell phones, and other information that reveals the truth about the state of affairs.for over 50 years...
you start to believe the misinformation...the propoganda..because that's all there is. 

Anybody that managed to escape the tight border security without being shot outright to China...would be returned
to face execution before they were able to spread any
truth about what is really going on inside NK and what
the outside world is really like. 

And lets not forget that this country has the largest armed force in the world right now..over a million men in arms..and crafty/determined/iron-fisted generals that are willing to press those nuke buttons..if provoked!


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> I don't believe that the emotions shown of the mourners on tv were "fake".


Neither do I, hence the reason I posted the link, but you know, there would always be those that might believe & even accuse you of relying solely on tv/youtube for your source of information; I have actually been accused of that on this forum.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

haha T.gal I wasn't going to bother but you read my mind. I'm guessing it's safe to say that none of us have been to N Korea or have much reliable unclassified info? We do evil things ourselves just as long as "the end justifies the means" and we all have different opinions on the end goal. Most people's main interpretation of Kim Jong-il seem to be the Team America 'ronery song and random photos of him "looking at things" Besides what's worse, idealizing drugged-up-Hollywood-stars, or your power-crazy-leader?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> haha T.gal I wasn't going to bother but you read my mind. I'm guessing it's safe to say that none of us have been to N Korea or have much reliable unclassified info? *Besides what's worse, idealizing drugged-up-Hollywood-stars*, or your power-crazy-leader?


Anybody have a copy of Lindsey Lohan's Playboy shoot? Just curious. 

Excesses of Hollywood or the excesses of a meglo-maniacal-dictator...
do we really have to choose between the two?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> Neither do I, hence the reason I posted the link, but you know, *there would always be those that might believe & even accuse you of relying solely on tv/youtube for your source of information*; I have actually been accused of that on this forum.


We believe what we are led to believe T.g.

Whether it was the German people in WWII, listening on radios to "factual" information by spin doctor Gobbels
on the victorius German army at Stalingrad (and other obvious defeats..at the hands of the Russians), 
or President Johnson's " put a positive spin on it" speeches to the American people on US "victories" in Vietnam...
or President Bush's warning to the American people of grave
danger from WMD in Iraq.. in order to get permission from Congress to attack..it is always the same..propoganda always overrides the truth..whatever it may be.

Who are your accusers on this forum? He who casts the last stone will
be stoned him/herself on New Years Eve!


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

mode, I'm certainly with Toronto.gal and carverman on this issue. Just because we haven't been to North Korea ourselves, does that mean we should give some credence to their "beloved leader's" claim that he scored 13 holes-in-one in the first golf game he ever played?

Nobody here, I'm sure, would consider that drugged-up Hollywood stars deserve to be idealized, but if you honestly think they have the potential to do the harm that a megelomaniacal dictator who was very close to reaching his goal of having nucleur bombs available for use at his sole discretion, then you have a serious problem.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> Just because we haven't been to North Korea ourselves, does that mean we should give some credence to their "beloved leader's" claim that he scored 13 holes-in-one in the first golf game he ever played?


"Kim" or the meglomanic that picked the name in Korean for himself (shining glory?) according to a documentary I was watching, was not born on top of the sacred mountain in Korea, (equivalent to Mt.Fuigi in Japan or Everest) under a double rainbow... but in a desolate area of Siberia, it is believed.
Little is known how he came to power, (as compared to Hitler or Stalin, (which are other examples of "popularized name" given to an individual who assumes great power as a dictator).

Der Fuehrer's real name was not Hitler at birth..the birth mother's name was Klara Shicklgruber who was a "hausfrau" at an inn where she met Alois Hitler..(the supposed father who was a womanizer and known for his penchance to make housemaids pregnant). Needless to say because of some "close family ties" between the aledged father and
the birth mother, the "aledged" father and pregnant hausfrau Klara (maid) were not allowed to marry by the German authorities in the late 1800s. Hitler was therefore, an illegitimate child, and assumed name of the "supposed" father,
but that was very debatable because in 1889, DNA testing was a technology yet to be discovered. He was Austrian also, not German by birth.

Stalin means "man of steel" in Russian..Here again little is known about Stalin's roots..just that he was a Georgian, who came to power by eliminating his opponents..and anybody who opposed him, including his "cleansing" of the elite Russian military when he came to power. 



> Nobody here, I'm sure, would consider that drugged-up Hollywood stars deserve to be idealized, but if you honestly think they have the potential to do the harm that a megelomaniacal dictator who was very close to reaching his goal of having nucleur bombs available for use at his sole discretion, then you have a serious problem.


I agree Karen. Drugged up Hollywood "stars" are just regular people that managed to "get a break" in life somehow and get well paid for their efforts by a country that regards Hollywood and it's inhabitance as a culture worthy of being idolized..and very well paid in the process to boot (millions per picture
in some cases). Being wealthier than most Americans, turning to indulgences that otherwise would be unavailable to them.

A meglomaniac such as..Hiltler,KimJong il, Stalin, who were individuals of questionable background rise to ruthless power was only because of circumstances, (not necessarily actual victims of circumstances) but by being there... at
the right time, at the right place with the right set of henchman to do their dirty work..murder anyone who stood in their way in their rise to absolute power...and as we know.." absolute power corrupts absolutely!"


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Fly on the wall..US secretary of state office, Washington DC,
stardate Jan 1, 2012....

US S of S Hiliary R. Clinton speaking on phone to
Kim Jung Un....
Hiliary: Hello? is this Kim Jung Un, I am speaking to?
NK voice: who are you? who do you wish to speak to???
Hiliary: I wanted to speak to Kim Jung un, please. 

NK Voice: he is not available..please speak to me
Hiliary: who are you?
NK voice: Jang Song Thaek..I am uncle of Kim Jung Un
and brother of Kim Jong-il ..I am in charge..what do you want from us? 

Hilary: I was hoping to negotiate a "food for nukes" exchange program with him? 

NK voice: who told you we needed any food?
Hilary: our sources say that your NK people are mostly starving..eating rats and cats and elephants...

NK voice: that is capitalist lie!...NK people have lots to eat, caviar, roast pork, canned spam that your US invaders left us in 1953, we have plenty of food..what else?

Hilary: we are worried about your nuclear buildup and would like to find a comprimise that will be beneficial to both countries. 

NK voice <temper rising>..now American Woman..listen carefully...

"American woman! Stay away from me! American Woman better let me be,
Don’t come hanging around my door! I don’t want to see your face no more,
I got more important things to do.. then spend my time growing old with you!

American Woman get away from me! American woman you better let me be!
Don’t come knocking around my door! I don’t want to see your shadow no more!
Colored lights can hypnotize... Go and sparkle someone else’s eyes!
Now woman I said get away ! American Woman listen what I say...

American Woman I said get away! American woman listen what I say..
Don’t come hanging around my door ..and 
I don’t want to see your face no more

I don’t need your war machines, (we got plenty of our own!)
I don’t need your ghetto scenes, (we also have plenty of our own!)

Your Hollywood lights can hypnotize, but they can
sparkle someone else’s eyes...

Now woman, get away from me...
American woman, Hiliary let me be
Go!, (gotta get away, gotta get away)
Now go go go!

as 
<NK voice slams down the phone!>


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> Who are your accusers on this forum? He who casts the last stone will
> be stoned him/herself on New Years Eve!


Check your messages.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> *Hiliary:* who are you?
> NK voice: Jang Song Thaek..I am uncle of Kim Jung Un


Side-splitting.  

Yes, Kim's son will share power with the army [with its nuclear arsenal] + the uncle.

Government by triumvirs I guess; wonder how that will work out. 

*Karen:* some comments just don't warrant a response.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> Karen: some comments just don't warrant a response.


(Sigh) I know you're right Toronto.gal, but sometimes I just can't help myself!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Karen said:


> mode, I'm certainly with Toronto.gal and carverman on this issue. Just because we haven't been to North Korea ourselves, does that mean we should give some credence to their "beloved leader's" claim that he scored 13 holes-in-one in the first golf game he ever played?
> 
> Nobody here, I'm sure, would consider that drugged-up Hollywood stars deserve to be idealized, but if you honestly think they have the potential to do the harm that a megelomaniacal dictator who was very close to reaching his goal of having nucleur bombs available for use at his sole discretion, then you have a serious problem.


Karen, my point is many stories on Kim John Il are well known to be exaggerated and have no reliable unclassified sources. Just google him and count how many times you read the work "reported", "reportedly" "apparently", "unconfirmed", "claimed" etc. Not even his birth date can be backed up indisputably, besides his personal propaganda biography that you refer to (golfing). Saddam Hussein was "reported" to have WMD's too right? As far as people idolizing him, like I said we have movie stars, princes and multiple religions that we idolize as well.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Thanks for the clarification, mode. I think it's important to note, though, that if Kim John Il were nothing but a boastful fool, a comparison with some of our entertainment stars might be approrpriate. However, none of those stars has the potential to drop a nucleur bomb on the rest of us, and you must admit that puts him in a totally different category.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> Side-splitting.
> 
> Yes, Kim's son will share power with the army [with its nuclear arsenal] + the uncle.
> 
> Government by triumvirs I guess; wonder how that will work out.


as much as things change..things seem remain the same with the old regime..
maybe someday..when they think he is "ready" for that dictators firm
grip on the 1 million strong NK army...until then it's "business as usual" ...isolationist policies prevail.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Saddam Hussein was "reported" to have WMD's too right? As far as people idolizing him, like I said we have movie stars, princes and multiple religions that we idolize as well.


So-dam-insane? He actually did have Gerald Bull (a Canadian engineer) working on a "super cannon to deliver (lob) bio-logical weapons at Israel during the first "Desert storm" operation. He was assassinated for his efforts with Saddam in 1990..just before the first US campaign against Iraq's invasion of Kuwait..a "US Protectorate" in a sense...because of the oil they have. Who can forget those thousands of oil wells
going up in smoke, set off by Saddam, as he got booted out of Kuwait with all
that looted booty..it was like an army of ants carrying their booty back to their nest.

The US decided to teach him a lesson and summoned their B52s to drop
thousands upon thousands of cluster bombs with fragmentation to
cut a "swath" through the fleeing Iraqi army...it was a slaughter of
biblical proportions and on top of that, firestorm munitions were dropped
to incinerate anything that might be of value to Saddam.

Geo H Bush (Sr) declared that they were establishing a "new world order"..
with the US Military Machine guns pointing at anyone who cares to defy
them...

The "Canadian Connection" to the supergun project and what could have been a considered WMD, as the SCUDs were mostly terror weapons like the V1 buzz bombs
used by the Nazis against Britain. 
<source Wiki>
Gerald Bull had worked for so many parties in so many critical defence projects that he became an asset and a liability for several powerful groups at the same time. _It has been speculated that variously members of the Mossad, the CIA, MI6, Chilean, Iraqi, Iran's VEVAK, or South African government were behind the assassination._
The supergun project was stopped when its parts were seized by Customs in the United Kingdom in November 1990, and most of Bull's staff returned to Canada. The smaller test gun was later broken up after the Gulf War. <end>

Saddam brutal as he was, also promoted being idolized as so many dictators
before him and any after him..thats the way it is in a totalitarian system.
Speak out against "der fuerher" and you will be wearing cement overshoes
feeding the fishes...or participating in "many ways to die" in a most 
disagreeable manner..Saddam threw some of his victims into an industrial
grinder.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> Saddam threw some of his victims into an industrial
> grinder.


Please help me carverman, are you saying that putting S. Hussein and J. Bieber [for example] in the same sentence might not quite rhyme? Or perhaps I'm just a 'narrow-minded and closed-hearted' person for not appreciating potential similarities. 

Great post!


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

"Just before North Korean leader Kim Jong Il died, the skies glowed red above sacred Mount Paektu and the impenetrable sheet of ice at the heart of the mystical volcano cracked with a deafening roar." 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/nkorea-cites-mysterious-glow-kim-death-15210750


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> "Just before North Korean leader Kim Jong Il died, the skies glowed red above sacred Mount Paektu and the impenetrable sheet of ice at the heart of the mystical volcano cracked with a deafening roar."



Propganda machine is running overtime..lets hope that with a million in arms,
they don't take the same course with the new "leader"..Number 3 son
and start to do some stupid things causing a military conflict in that region. 

With a "behind the scenes" military dictator really running the country and the army, "baby Kim" is a just a puppet riding on their propanda machine right now...
so the world can focus on him (and what he is NOT up to), rather than what is really going on in the background in regards to their intentions. 

If it wasn't for the huge US presence there, South Korea would have ceased to exist long ago!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> Please help me carverman, are you saying that putting S. Hussein and J. Bieber [for example] in the same sentence might not quite rhyme? Or perhaps I'm just a 'narrow-minded and closed-hearted' person for not appreciating potential similarities.


I used drugged-up Hollywood stars because that is probably the most common obsession in NA. Most people wouldn't know a fraction as much about the candidates they vote for as they do about J Bieber, so how important is that vote to them anyways? I never said Kim Jong-Il wasn't evil, just that it's naive to think you know everything without any relevant source of info. A better comparison may have been religions, comparing his bio to the Bible etc, but I won't go there. How many religions do we have in Canada? It's ok to idolize those right? It's just not ok to have nucs, like the US has? Or it's just not ok for 1 person to push the button? Yet it is OK for the US to support dictators who are "business" friendly? Or are you just not aware of those ones, because it wasn't in the news?


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> With a "behind the scenes" military dictator really running the country and the army, "baby Kim" is a just a puppet riding on their propanda machine right now...so the world can focus on him (and what he is NOT up to), rather than what is really going on in the background in regards to their intentions.


Good point carverman - I hadn't really thought of it in those terms.



> ...It's just not ok to have nucs, like the US has? Or it's just not ok for 1 person to push the button?..


mode, you seem determined to miss the point that some of us are making - would you rather live in a country with nucleur capabilities where one person decides whether to push the button (as in North Korea), or a country like the US where, in spite of its imperfections, the decision to push the button could never be made by one individual?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> would you rather live in a country with nucleur capabilities where one person decides whether to push the button (as in North Korea), or a country like the US where, in spite of its imperfections, the decision to push the button could never be made by one individual?


No Karen, I'm sure he was just trying to open my heart & mind a little.  

Also, it's just not possible for mode to focus on one topic at the time; it was black slavery in the Shafia discussion and now it is Hollywood idolatry.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Should we mix things up a bit again, how about discussing the Chiquita bananas boycott of our oilsands?  

"Nassir Abdulaziz Al-Nasser, president of the 193-nation assembly, called for a "minute of silence" before the start of a routine meeting at 3:00 p.m." 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/22/us-korea-north-un-idUSTRE7BL1LJ20111222


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