# How to structure house purchase in order to take care of aging parents.



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Not sure which area to post. My spouse and I are ready to start looking for a larger home as our needs are changing. With the economy the way it is in Calgary, prices in the higher end homes are dropping. We are not in a rush, and willing to wait for the right home at the right price.

Our needs have changed in two ways, first as our kids are getting older, we do want more space, and at the same time, our parents are also getting older they need less space but more care. We are considering buying a larger home to accommodate having our parents move in (just one side). Our current home can not accommodate this. 

The parents’ health are currently in good condition, and we all get along very well. They are pretty easy going people, as am I, so getting on each other nerves, it not an issue. No concerns about the relationships, as they are pretty strong. As they age, and need more care, we will do what we need to do. I have experience with my grandparents growing, and see what is needed. There is also a chance they will want to move somewhere else in a few more years. They are in their mid 60’s. 

It is from a financial standpoint: 
- Our current house is mortgage free. We are not sure if would sell the house, or keep it as a rental yet. I would have to run the numbers. In both cases, some base renovations are required. We would do them after we moved into the new house. 
- The newer house will be more than what we receive from the sale of the house, or the refinancing (if we turn it into a rental). Depending on new house cost, we would mostly like a have mid size mortgage (guessing $250K).
- Our parents also have a paid off house, which they would be willing to sell. 
- Everyone is financially secure, and the parents have said they are willing to ‘help’ if tell them what we want.

Now our options for house purchase: 
1. My spouse and I buy the new house, and finance it ourselves (so a mortgage on our own). The house would be ours, and they do whatever they want with theirs. When my spouse and I want to sell, there are no questions of equity or anything. Also, though we are all reasonable people, it makes it easier in terms who has the final decision if things need to change (moving, renovations, etc)

2. We jointly purchase the new house with our parents. There would be no mortgage. There would be questions of do we each pay the same amount, would the parent just pay the net amount? What happens with any major decisions such as renovations, selling, capital gains, etc. I am actually quite sure we could work out something reasonable. However, there is also another sibling in the picture, so would they need to be involved? As they wouldn’t be putting anything in to, but would they feel that their ‘inheritance’ is being taken from them. I was thinking of the scenario where our parents no longer live with us, but we still live in the house. They could the siblings demand that we pay them out our parents share of the gains? 

Also, would we be considered ‘fair in terms of living expenses. Should we just pay for everything because we are working, and they are retired? Should we have them pay some of the bills? Does it matter if we buy place by ourselves vs. jointly. So if we buy the bigger house, and pay for the mortgage, then maybe they pay for all the bills? I am not one to nickel and dime, and when we go out as a family, we usually just pay for them. This is a lot bigger and longer term than a trip, so I want to make sure that I am thinking straight.

I really look forward to thoughts, considerations, and rational.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Easiest is for you to purchase everything and rent to the parents. Your parents or spouse's parents?
It's highly unlikely that a rental would make sense, financially, to keep your current place as a rental.
The parents can sell their place, invest and use the income to pay you rent, plus probably a bit extra for them.
If your parents decide to move to a different place, then of course something might have to change. Maybe look for a place that could be converted in to a legal rental suite if necessary?

My aunt and uncle did this with my grandparents. Had a rental property in their walkout basement for the grandparents. I think at one point grandpa said here's $XXK, this will pay for our rent until we're not here (they paid utilities). At some point, my grandpa's mind started to deteriorate and then my uncle decided that they should be charged rent. Didn't go over well. Relationships were soured. Turns out my uncle (by marriage) was having an affair. Ended up leaving. My aunt rents an apartment now. My cousin (their daughter) disowned her father. I always considered them easy going laid back people too.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I would not touch 2. with a ten foot pole for all the reasons you state and then some. IF you do consider it, a lawyer may suggest tenants-in-common ownership is the way to go...to keep it clear who owns what, and how much, and everyone has to pay their share of the costs, upgrades, taxes, utilities, etc. There would also need to be in the agrement, buy-out provisions, rights of first refusal, etc. because as you suggest, the parents having to leave the home for assisted living, or similar, or death WILL create challenges.

The cleanest way is for you and spouse to own the property outright with the parents paying you rent OR they provide you with a mortgage at favourable (but commercial) terms for perhaps a third or so of the house (from some of the proceeds they get from their house sale) and pay you lower rent. In either case, they should also pay, perhaps a third, of the operating (utility, property insurance bills, but not property tax). I use one third as a suggestion only because you have kids, 

The key is fairness as seen in the eyes of all involved. The sibling should not be disadvantaged vis-a-vis eventual inheritance so keeping the arrangement as reasonably commercial as possible keeps everyone happy.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

First off, buy the house for yourself, no joint tenancy.

Next, if this was a child, would you charge them rent? If they were teens with jobs? Did your parents charge you rent? Family is an obligation in my mind. If you decide to have them live with you, then it's your choice. I think it's a responsibility you take on freely, and offer freely just like you do with children, just like your parents did with you (at no charge).

If, like with older kids, things aren't working out, there are other options out there which can be explored. They probably won't be the best option in some people's opinion, but neither will the current situation be. Life is about compromise, sacrifice and doing what's right even when it isn't easy.

This won't entitle you to a bigger inheritance, another source of income, or anything else (not that you seem to expect it, but others would), it's part of being a family. I'm sure, in most cases, your parents will offer to help out while they can (just like kids are taught to), and may need a lot of care in the last stages and can't contribute (like when you were babies). It's part of life and the way generations used to live... 

While you are doing it, it'll lead to arguements, stress, and issues...just like kids and, just like kids, after they are gone, you'll probably look back upon these times with a sense of loss.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Very helpful considerations. 

My spouse and I were thinking that we would buy the place ourselves, and that was our first preference. It as our parents that suggesting that they pay for part of it because they would be selling their house, and we would be buying a much different house because of them than if it was just for us. I think one of the reason the reason they offered was they want a pretty big place, which my spouse and I would not fell comfortable spending it on our own. I think given the nature that they could move at a future time we we just need to be very up front tell them that we will buy the house, and they will live with us. We will ask for their opinion and input but ultimately we will only buy what we our comfortable with. The houses they want are outside of what we are willing to pay. 

The areas that I am not comfortable on is asking parents for money. I feel rent is 'too cold' as this is NOT a business transaction, it's family. To be very clear, teven though JAG already said it, my spouse and I have absolutely no expectation of anything financial from this. We do it because we are in a better position because our kids a little older than the other sibling. We recognized though that there does need to be some sort of boundaries and also our parents would not want to just live off of us. 

I am really struggling with how formal to make the expenses so we can do a little budgeting too. Calling it rent, is out of the question. But when growing up, everyone was and is expected to contribute to the household based on what they can (not necessarily financially). I personally know that I don't want o be treated like a servant, and my place a hotel were were are catering to them. That wouldn't be acceptable with my kids, so I just want to make sure that doesn't happen.


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## praire_guy (Sep 8, 2011)

Normally I just chime in with an opinion. 

However an exception is being made: 

Under NO circumstance are you to consider option 2. Not once, not ever. It is such a bad option, even just posting it will keep ME up tonight. 

If you want, PM me for more information. My,experience cannot be publicly posted as it will take CMF PERMANTLY off the internet due shear lunacy. 

I'd probably just end up having you call me as messaging you about this will wear the glass off my iPad. 

When it comes to estates, there is no such thing as reasonable, fair, get along, etc. 

I would not wish option 2 upon a Hitler worshiping child molesting pedofile who voted for Justine Trudeau and her liberals.


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## praire_guy (Sep 8, 2011)

Forgot to mention also don't feel bad about taking money. 

If you are in effect buying a house above and beyond you would buy for yourself sans parents, you also will incur larger associated expenses I.e property tax bill, utilities, etc. 

They could,for,example pay the difference in increase property tax. Cover a utility bill, alternate grocery shopping. 

At the end of the day as adults you can agree to anything you want. If your parents want to chip in with their money (it's not an inheritance until they die... Something people have a hard time understanding) then it is their right to do so. 

Also realize that people age, and will require more care. Also allow for an unexpected ALS, MS, MD, stroke, etc, and you are in for a real life changer, that could end up in a divorce. The longer parents live with you, the harder it is to place them into "proper care" should the need arise. 

This post superceeds my previous one. PM me. I'd like to talk to you as the more I think about it, any choice you make has the potential to bite you in the ***. 

I don't want to scare you, or come across as being negative, but I went down the same rabbit hole you are now considering, and it was far from a wonderland.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Prairie_guy, I know a few people who have experienced similar nightmares. Family is family until it is not and then the worst of all hells breaks loose.

Plugging Along: Have some formality to the arrangement. It doesn't have to be as formal or comprehensive as an arm's length transaction but SOME formality needs to be in place. The parents are going to want to contribute (or should) as a matter of pride and self-worth, never mind good conscience. Accept it and there will be a better balance in all relationships. Breaking up is hard to do, and nigh impossible in the absence of anything written down.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

A little update, my spouse and both agree we will NOT buy a house with the parents. We see just see too many things that can go wrong. We started initial discussions with the parents and brought in the siblings too. Time lines were discussed, and they can be a a little wish washy, which also solidified our view of we will buy the house ourselves . We explained that we are happy to have them move in with us, and when we start getting serious about a house we like, we will let them be a part of the process though we have the final say. What this means is, that we will buy a house that may be a little more of stretch than what we we do if it's just us, but it will be based on what my spouse and I are comfortable with. If our parents don't like that they still have another child to live with. 



praire_guy said:


> Forgot to mention also don't feel bad about taking money.
> 
> If you are in effect buying a house above and beyond you would buy for yourself sans parents, you also will incur larger associated expenses I.e property tax bill, utilities, etc.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the insight, better now before anything happens vs. afterwards when it is too late. Based on the strength of your post above, it sounds like you had some pretty bad experience.

So the parents do really want to help and want to pay for part of the house. We have said no. They just assumed that they would be paying some expenses, which is nice that they didn't assume we would do everything, even though we would be willing to. Family and relationships are above money and we have the similar values. I do find it weird to exchange money between family. I think we will let them help with the operational costs, and we will have to figure that out. 

My family has been throught asking care of parents in the past, so I do understand its not always an easy path. My mother quit her job to take care of my paternal grandmother when she had a stroke. It lasted for 7 years before she past away. So I do know how hard it can be. I would be interested in finding out more about the 'proper care ' part and the types of conversions. I want to go into this with eyes wide open.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Prairie_guy, I know a few people who have experienced similar nightmares. Family is family until it is not and then the worst of all hells breaks loose.
> 
> Plugging Along: Have some formality to the arrangement. It doesn't have to be as formal or comprehensive as an arm's length transaction but SOME formality needs to be in place. The parents are going to want to contribute (or should) as a matter of pride and self-worth, never mind good conscience. Accept it and there will be a better balance in all relationships. Breaking up is hard to do, and nigh impossible in the absence of anything written down.


As I said above, the parents do want to chip in. They assumed they would help buy the house. We told no last night and why. They still want to help with the operating. What kind of formality would you think? 

Our families are all pretty logical and reasonable when it comes to these things (otherwise I wouldn't be able to live with them). We were thinking of the net increase in operating costs by moving into a larger house. That was just a starting point, but I have no idea.


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## praire_guy (Sep 8, 2011)

IMO any "above and beyond costs" are reasonable. 

Also keep in mind your parents WILL want to contribute more. For them it will an anti mooch, thanks for doing this, this is what we've had to pay anyways. 

Accept this. My parents will pay me 50 bucks for a lift,to the airport cause that's what it'd cost anyway. They'd rather pay me than someone else. 

Do I feel like a putz accepting the money? Yuppers, but,it's not worth the fight. I just pocket the money, and pick up some nice ribeyes and invite them over for supper as a covert "payback"

You could always save any money they give you and surprise them with a trip somewhere. This is a win win as it can be a challenge to do some McLuvin when mom and dad live with you. They are up early, and hear and notice,everything. 

Other things to consider are, it's hard enough putting mom and dad in a care home when you live separately. When you live together, times that by 10, then double it. 

Another consideration is that you WILL be scrutinized by siblings on everything you do. I don't care how well you were all brought up, and how well you all get along. 

People are greedy by nature, and like it or not money makes the world go round. Not love, family, unicorns or Justine Trudeau. Money. 

And remember this: business is business and friends and family are bullshit. 

I'll share a story of a co worker who stayed with mum temporarily in her mortgage free home as he, and his family shops around for a house. (Just sold their house, trying to find another). His siblings are in different provinces, with very little contact, save for xmas cards, Mother's Day flowers etc. 

Buddy felt like a leach, because mum would have "none of that nonsense!!" Of chipping in for food, utilities etc. 

Mum mentioned she,was taking out a line of credit for a new kitchen, and a bathroom upgrade. 

Buddy said to floated the idea of mum buying materials with the LOC and in lieu of "rent" he would do the work for her. (He's a very handy guy) not only would her money go further , but now there is an opportunity for his son to learn some manly real world skills, thus reducing the chance of Jr. Becoming a Justine Trudeau worshiping liberal. 

A deal was struck, and everybody who was a part of the deal was happy........

A few days later the phone calls started... "Wtf?? Why is there a mortgage on mums house?"...."you @:&[email protected]&& God diggin prick"...... "You are stealing our inheritance ", and so forth. 

A family feud,was started and nothing really "happened" in terms of title/ownership, etc. just a simple solution. 

Beware of that rabbit hole.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

praire_guy said:


> I
> 
> Other things to consider are, it's hard enough putting mom and dad in a care home when you live separately. When you live together, times that by 10, then double it.
> 
> ...


Also,consider this when co-ownership of a property with aging parents is considered.

What happens when both of them can no longer stay in the shared home and have to be put in a assisted living care?

Who is going to pay the nearly $4000 a month that they are charging these days PER PERSON!

What happens when one (or both parents pass away)..sad reality of life... but if they are co-owners (tenants in common) , then 1/2 of the property
becomes part of their estate and the other owner(s) has to buy out or settle with the estate before distribution of the estate.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

praire_guy said:


> IMO any "above and beyond costs" are reasonable.
> 
> Also keep in mind your parents WILL want to contribute more. For them it will an anti mooch, thanks for doing this, this is what we've had to pay anyways.
> 
> ...


I hear about stories like this. I do like to believe that maybe we are different, but want to make sure that we prevent as much as possible from going wrong. Our family would find it insulting to take money or offer money to help each other. I think it will just be figuring it out as we go and having open communication. 

My parents took care of their parents u til they needed to go to a home. I think it's one of the things when and if the time comes, we will do what we need to do. 




carverman said:


> Also,consider this when co-ownership of a property with aging parents is considered.
> 
> What happens when both of them can no longer stay in the shared home and have to be put in a assisted living care?
> 
> ...


We have already decided for this reason and others that we will just buy the house when we are ready (I think I posted above). 

In terms of when they will need to go to a home, we we in a fortunate situation that our parents are financially secure, and even if they weren't we all are, and we would pay what we need to do.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

If you are considering buying a home for elderly parents, remember to consider their needs. Ideally, you'll need a bedroom on the main floor, as well as a full bath. Elderly people don't do stairs well.

There are things to consider, beyond money and inheritance, in this case.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^. Absolutely. We had told our parents that they should consider something with less stairs when they bought their current house, but they didn't think stair would ever bother them. Now, that's one of the reasons they are wanting to move. The house we would buy just for our self is very different. We are also looking for something with a walkout and a little living area on the main or a large bungalow. It's actually quite challenging in the areas we want.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Just to throw one more opinion in the mix.
If your parents want to contibute to the ongoing costs of the house, don't get them to give you money each month. Let them be responsible for a certain bill or bills. Maybe they pay the electricity bill and the taxes. This keeps them involved in the household and feels less like rent.
If they want to contribute to the cost of the house, what you could do is have them give you a predetermined sum and you give them a mortgage of that amount. In the event of their death, the mortgage is paid off from your share of the estate. If they move to an assisted living situation, you could sell the house and return their mortgage funds to them and then buy a smaller house to fit your needs. This keeps things tidy.
You could pay them interest on the mortgage on an interest only basis at say the 5 year gic rate. Or it could be a zero interest mortgage. I think in Ontario there has to be some rate greater than zero.
This would then be offset by them paying your utility bill.
Ensure all siblings are aware and are on side.
As far as stairs go, you could look at something like a backsplit where your parents may have one level more or less to themselves and put in a stairlift for when they come down or up for meals or to with the family.
I have a walk out basement with an inlaw suit. My plan was to put in a stairlift to the mainfloor. The parents could have the basement and could do their own thing, including some of their own cooking but could use the stairlift to come up to the mainfloor for meals and to spend time with us.
Alas it never came to fruition but son now lives in basement while finishing up uni.
Good luck


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm reading this thread with great interest as I may end up in the same situation with my in-laws within the next few years.

I would agree with others who say that buying the house together should be off the table though.



Just a Guy said:


> Next, if this was a child, would you charge them rent? If they were teens with jobs? Did your parents charge you rent? Family is an obligation in my mind. If you decide to have them live with you, then it's your choice. I think it's a responsibility you take on freely, and offer freely just like you do with children, just like your parents did with you (at no charge).
> 
> If, like with older kids, things aren't working out, there are other options out there which can be explored. They probably won't be the best option in some people's opinion, but neither will the current situation be. Life is about compromise, sacrifice and doing what's right even when it isn't easy.
> 
> This won't entitle you to a bigger inheritance, another source of income, or anything else (not that you seem to expect it, but others would), it's part of being a family. I'm sure, in most cases, your parents will offer to help out while they can (just like kids are taught to), and may need a lot of care in the last stages and can't contribute (like when you were babies). It's part of life and the way generations used to live...


See I don't know if that is a fair comparison. When you have children it is usually an intentional plan. People budget for having children, and children have no means to pay for themselves. When you are talking about aging parents, number 1 the privacy needs are very different. This is two sets of adult couples, which is very different than having young children. In this scenario the OP will be paying for a significantly more expensive house for the purpose of keeping the parents there.

Also these are adults who have the means to pay for their place to live, and would otherwise be paying for themselves in any other situation. They aren't saving up to a buy a house on their own after college or anything. Also this may be close to 3 decades of living together. This is not a small favor.

My question would be who does it benefit in this case to not have some form of rent? Not the parents... maybe other inheritors in the future will benefit from the parents saving hundreds of thousands that they would have otherwise paid in living expenses.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

All I know is if it was my parents, they would want to contribute to the household to be 'guilt free', 'sense of self-worth', 'contribution', 'not a free ride'. I know if I was to land in on my grown adult children to live for potentially decades, I would insist on making a rightful and fair contribution.... a case of no one taking advantage of the other. Personally, I would pay appropriate (not necessarily commercial equivalent, but fair and reasonable) rent....with auto transfer from my bank account to theirs. I'd help out in the yard, perhaps assist in minor maintenance, etc. as well when I felt good enough to do it, while the prodigy and family were away, etc, etc. 

I would not want my parents to be involved in the ownership of my house nor would i want to be involved in the ownership of my own kids' house. Those kinds of entanglements are simply too complex with too many unknowns over time.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Plugging Along said:


> The areas that I am not comfortable on is asking parents for money. I feel rent is 'too cold' as this is NOT a business transaction, it's family. To be very clear, teven though JAG already said it, my spouse and I have absolutely no expectation of anything financial from this. We do it because we are in a better position because our kids a little older than the other sibling. We recognized though that there does need to be some sort of boundaries and also our parents would not want to just live off of us.


There's nothing wrong with doing business with family.

Quite some years ago, we purchased a rental house. Another house came along, that we thought was a deal of a lifetime, as another rental. We cut a deal with my parents for a loan at something like bank prime plus 2, to be paid off in 5 years, no early payment penalties (they are older and had no interest in a 25 year mortgage, nor did we).

I cut a mortgage contract (based on a contract) and made a spreadsheet to amortize it. We set up had a joint account and money was transferred in each month, along with an email note explaining the current mortgage statement.

It was good business. My parents picked up some money, we got our house, and it was good business for everyone.

Make sure you have a paper trail. You don't want to be in a position where a sibling is asking you to pay the original amount plus interest, when you've got it half paid off. It should be crystal clear. I also had a section on the bottom of the contract where we could sign off on the date and time it was repaid. That way, I would have a document showing the debt has been repaid, signed by my parents.

There was never an issue with trust. I think that was reinforced by the extensive documentation and completely open books. If I asked, they would jump at the opportunity to do it again.

... but if you're tentative about it, I would pass. Unless it is completely open and documented, there are all sorts of possibilities for issues.

These days we have a strong real estate portfolio. That is, in part, due to the help of my parents. I've never forgotten that. They did not give me a monetary gift. They gave me the gift of trust. The rest was good business. They have told me they feel good about it, just as we certainly do.


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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

The option I went with ... I had a 2 story 4 bedroom, I had a "mother-in-law-suite" (that's what was presented to the city for approval) built on. Basically a 1200 ft sq bungalow with finished basement at a cost of about $125K in 1993 (there were additional costs but they were upgrades to the existing house). My mom moved in, we shared the day to day expenses appropriately until she moved to extended care. The division of living spaces worked out really well ... or ... we didn't get in her way  Just suggesting a very clear division of living spaces is something to aim for, and sharing of the operational costs. As to joint tenancy and so on, could become problematic, my opinion. It's great for family to help each other out, it's great when everyone gets along, best of luck going forward.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I think anyone buying a home with idea of having aging parents live with them must do barrier free or may as well get parents to move into a condo.Hips and knees go as they get older then cannot use the stairs so may as well purchase a ranch bungalow or forget it ,5 stairs up to bedrooms may as well be 25 steps and I am speaking from experience .As for stair chairs with young kids around these can be a problem so I wouldn't assume a stair chair is going to solve the issue and shower with a seat or room for a bath chair is a must .My parents bought a new home when they were in mid 50s and went with side split and they are now realizing that any stairs in the home was a bad idea because at 78 my dad now needs a hip surgery and having to make a temporary solution for his recovery.I would just get a fixed monthly payment from the parents and forget them going on title.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> If you are considering buying a home for elderly parents, remember to consider their needs. Ideally, you'll need a bedroom on the main floor, as well as a full bath. *Elderly people don't do stairs well.
> *
> There are things to consider, beyond money and inheritance, in this case.


Yes you are correct there JAG.

This is my situation now at 70 and with ongoing disabilty where my legs have very little muscle mass left due to an incurable and untreatable auto-immune disease.

* At 50, (20 years ago)*, after being financially burned by divorce, I bought what I could afford in my area of Ottawa where I worked.

I was still strong and reasonably healthy for my age..even motorcycling, curling and x-country ski-ing then.

At 55, the dreaded cancer struck and things started to go downhill and I had to retire from working.

I just barely managed to get up the two sets of stairs (6 steps for each set) in a side split semi. In fact even hanging onto the stair railing, my right leg collapse on me and I fell down 3 or 4 steps and hit my head on the cement floor in the basement area. Fortunatly no head or limb injury but it was a "wakeup call".

*At 60*, I had to install a set of stair lifts as my knees were so weak, they wouldn't support my weight on each step. 

Initial cost of USED stair lifts $1200 each from Silver Cross. These were older models and developed reliabilty problems.
Within 2 years of use had to be replaced with Acorn stair lifts ($5000 each x 2 stair lifts), for me to continue living there. 
I was using a walker in both levels of my house and outside.

*At 65*, I had to start using a wheelchair. Had to buy a new power chair upstairs ($4000) and a used one downstairs for outside ($2400.

I had to completely redo the upstairs bathroom. Hired a handyman contractor..to widen narrow bathroom door for wheelchair access
and remove original tub as I could no longer step over the edge safely without my leg collapsing even with grab bars in the shower area.

Cost of conversion $1800 to make the doorway wider, $1400 for 5 ft shower base and smaller vanity.

Last fall (69) , I got sick and had to get a special motorized toilet seat in order to get off the toilet at $2000. 
Grab bars, outside ramp, and other disabled modifications another $2000 at least.

However, at least spending around $20K allows me to live in my home a bit longer.

The next 10 years will be a challenge..but it's too late in my life cycle to find a bungalow with everything accessible from the ground floor.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> I think anyone buying a home with idea of having aging parents live with them must do barrier free or may as well get parents to move into a condo.Hips and knees go as they get older then cannot use the stairs *so may as well purchase a ranch bungalow or forget it*


You are absolutely correct Marina. This what I should have done 20 years ago, but at that time I was still reasonably healthy and didn't think about health issues down the road. 

I bought what I could afford then in terms of price and monthly mortgage payments and for at least 10 years,
I managed quite well .... but soon afterwards...cancer, chemo and other health issues!



> 5 stairs up to bedrooms may as well be 25 steps and I am speaking from experience .As for stair chairs with young kids around these can be a problem so I wouldn't assume a stair chair is going to solve the issue and shower with a seat or room for a bath chair is a must .My parents bought a new home when they were in* mid 50s and went with side split and they are now realizing that any stairs in the home was a bad idea because at 78 my dad now needs a hip surgery and having to make a temporary solution for his recovery*.I would just get a fixed monthly payment from the parents and forget them going on title.


*RE: aging parents on house title:*
My mother helped me with the down payment for the current property I live in, after divorce (20 yrs ago), as I was essentially broke at that time. She wanted her name on the title at time of purchasel as "tenants in common, not spouses of each other". 

A couple years ago (at age 90) she had serious heart issues and wanted to "pre-settle her estate" between her and her 3 boys, anything of monetary value that would be considered part of her estate, besides the house she owns in Toronto. 

My mother and I, each had to go to a lawyer and have a gifted title transfer done, to remove her from being 50% owner of my property here in Ottawa where I was the principle owner.
Otherwise, if she died then, her estate (which included 50% interest in my house), would have to be valued for probate tax purposes, CRA capital gains taxes, etc .


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think the best solution might be to buy a home that is already built for this purpose if possible.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> I think the best solution might be to buy a home that is already built for this purpose if possible.


Not always possible in the real estate resale market, as most homes, unless sold by a disabled senior that has a serious disability.

The converse is selling a house that has been converted for a disabled person. Families that do not have disabilities may not be interested in stair lifts, expensive safety walk in tubs, and all the other paraphernalia required for a disabled person, 
so that may affect the final selling price unless everything is restored back.

Years ago, I would have not been interested in a house with disabled bathroom etc.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i don't have any suggestions but i think we should all applaud Plugging for at least 2 things ...

... her obvious devotion to her parents

... plus her great common sense when it comes to figuring out the How-To of this complex arrangement

Plugging's story will go well, i believe. From everything she has told us, her family is exceptionally close-knit. The sibling(s) are more likely to be grateful than spiteful for every sacrifice that Plug & Co will make, every service they will provide to the old folks.

it seems wise that the new house should be 100% in the names of Plug & her husband. For all the reasons brought forward, which Plug had already thought of.

the parents will likely be equally proud & determined not to mooch off their offspring, but some simple way of cost-sharing can likely be worked out. 

i hope the parents will have many healthy & happy years before them. What a joy it will be for them to live close to their granddaughters & to see those sweet little girls growing up before their eyes! may the knees, the hips, the hearts & the wits stay long & strong!

best wishes with everything, Plugging


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Thanks for further updates everyone. Was busy with the kids and work so didn't have a chance to read the latest. 

I think I posted the last update. There was a family meeting with the siblings and parents. The parents are a little unsure of the time frame. They know not this year, but in less than 5. They did assume that they would just help pay for the house, and we said no and explained the reasons. We said will accept help of living expense if they really want but we all agreed that this is not business, but rather family. We all hate the idea of 'this is your expense and this is our expense'. I think we will be fine.

What my spouse and I have decided to do is just take our time and find the right place. Calgary housing price is not going up any time soon, We are looking for a good deal that will meet all of our needs (if there is such a thing). We are aiming to pay for the house difference in cash as I really hate the idea of having a mortgage again. However, if we find the perfect house we will consider having a mortgage, though not ideal. 

CARVER our parents are on their mid 60's and knock on wood good health. 

HUMBLE. Thanks again for the encouragement and kind words. I am feeling more confident about the right thing to do. My heard us talking about it, and they love current house, 'it's where they have always lived' said my youngest. They also said it would be really nice to live with the grandparents and my oldest offered to take care of them since she just finished her babysitting course . I do like the idea of families coming together. I am just aware that many families seem to have so many fall outs on this like this. So still going in eyes wide open. 



marina628 said:


> I think anyone buying a home with idea of having aging parents live with them must do barrier free or may as well get parents to move into a condo.Hips and knees go as they get older then cannot use the stairs so may as well purchase a ranch bungalow or forget it ,5 stairs up to bedrooms may as well be 25 steps and I am speaking from experience .As for stair chairs with young kids around these can be a problem so I wouldn't assume a stair chair is going to solve the issue and shower with a seat or room for a bath chair is a must .My parents bought a new home when they were in mid 50s and went with side split and they are now realizing that any stairs in the home was a bad idea because at 78 my dad now needs a hip surgery and having to make a temporary solution for his recovery.I would just get a fixed monthly payment from the parents and forget them going on title.


The bungalow was our first choice, however in the areas that we are looking at, there are very few. What are you thoughts about a house that their is a bedroom on the main where all the rest of the amenities are (kitchen, family room), and then living areas for the rest of the family or perhaps a a place with a walk out were the parents can stay with a seperate entrance (no Stairs)?



sags said:


> I think the best solution might be to buy a home that is already built for this purpose if possible.


We are having a lot of problems finding something that matches everyone. Location is very important because of our kids school. The areas we are looking at seem to be for families with kids, not older people. We are even thinking of buying a place an gutting it and building for what we need, but cost wise it is very expensive.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

OKay, here's an update. We found a place that met our criteria, or pretty darn close. We had been finding it was really challenging finding a house that had a bedroom on the main with a bathroom on the main too. We found a house in a Greta neighbourhood, in fact my kids will go to the same school and activities with no interruption, the house was more than I wanted to spend, but it was the right location. 

We decided that we would just take on another mortgage on the house, and if the parents want to provide a loan which we will pay back, we will consider it. We are refinancing our current home (paid off) to put on the new home. The market has really come down recently so I want to hang on to my current place. The challenge is the rents are going to down too. 

I am a little stressed (ok a lot) as we have a short possession date, and I am a little worried above it the mortgage. I need to be able to qualify on my own as my spouse is in consulting. 

When we told the parents, it sounds like they will not move in until they need to, so another few years. We like the house and will enjoy it. However, we would have bought a different home if they weren't going to move in with us. I am a little concerned that they will change their mind, but don't know why.

That's my update for now, I have been mortgage free for years, and now back to a mortgage. :nightmare:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> OKay, here's an update. We found a place that met our criteria, or pretty darn close.
> 
> I am a little stressed (ok a lot) as we have a short possession date, and I am a little worried above it the mortgage. I need to be able to qualify on my own as my spouse is in consulting.
> 
> When we told the parents, it sounds like they will not move in until they need to, so another few years.


Sounds like they want to stay independent in their own home until one or both no longer can. That is the risk with making major decisions on buying based on future family needs. 



> We like the house and will enjoy it. However, we would have bought a different home if they weren't going to move in with us. I am a little concerned that they will change their mind, but don't know why.


I think that the advice given by a few CMF posters here earlier this year makes a lot of sense. 

You shouldn't buy a house just based on your parents future needs, but YOUR OWN future needs, and your ability to afford the new house purchase within your own comfortable income level.
Now you are experiencing early consequences of a decision made for someone else in your family without considering your own needs and financial comfort level. 
It is possible also that they though it out more and have decided not to move in with you, but sell and move into a retirement living/assisted retirement living placement when the time comes.
Besides, the strain on you looking after two aging parents with serious disabilities is something you probably didn't consider. 
It would mean you wouldn't have a life of your own, but be required to look after one or both on a 24/7 basis. 



> That's my update for now, I have been mortgage free for years, and now back to a mortgage. :nightmare:


Living mortgage free is a good thing, living with a mortgage based on possible future requirements, if these are not immediate...is never a good thing.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

carverman said:


> Sounds like they want to stay independent in their own home until one or both no longer can. That is the risk with making major decisions on buying based on future family needs.
> 
> 
> You shouldn't buy a house just based on your parents future needs, but YOUR OWN future needs, and your ability to afford the new house purchase within your own comfortable income level.
> ...


Well, another update. The deal fell through during inspection. LOTS of concerns, so we will continue looking patiently.

We are looking for both ourselves AND our parents. We have for a long time wanted something bigger. The difference is that we have many more criteria because of the parents. Otherwise, we would have been able to buy a more commen, less expensive house. I am not willing to move again for a long time after this next house purchase, so it does need to be scalable. 

There is a chance that the parents will change there mind, and if that's the case, we have a bigger house. I figure if it was the right house for us but a little bigger than we needed, then I am fine with that. It does come at a higher cost, which makes me uncomfortable. However, I am also very conservative with my finances so, I know we would be fine. I just don't like being in debt. The longer it takes us the find the right house, the less we will owe, so I am not in a rush. 

In terms of taking care of disabled parents, if that is what we will need to do, then I have considered that. We will hire the best care possible for them either in our home, or in a home. That is something that we believe is the right thing to do. I understand the work and strain involved, but that is something we will will figure out. Hopefully, they will be in good health for a long time, however, we have always valued family and support. We would not turn our backs on them no matter how difficult. Something I was raised with and I raise my children with.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Sounds like a blessing in disguise that deal fell through so I wouldn't be jumping into another purchase especially if your parents have not made 100% commitment to you.I do not know you , your parents or kids but I know my parents would not want to be living with small kids again so that may be a factor in your parents not living with you too.I would not be pushing this issue and if you really want a new home buy it for yourself.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

^ Agree completely. It makes no sense to buy a 'what if' if there is no pretty firm commitment from the parents. 

FWIW, if the OP wants to hedge his bets, there are houses in Cougar Ridge opposite Olympic Park that were zoned for, and built with, secondary suites. I believe they are corner lots so that secondary suite parking can be 'around the corner' from the main driveway and garage. With them being designed and built with secondary suites, they are thus configured properly in the first place. There may be other developments in Calgary with the same idea (don't know). The OP certainly could have a realtor specifically look for such houses.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

marina628 said:


> Sounds like a blessing in disguise that deal fell through so I wouldn't be jumping into another purchase especially if your parents have not made 100% commitment to you.I do not know you , your parents or kids but I know my parents would not want to be living with small kids again so that may be a factor in your parents not living with you too.I would not be pushing this issue and if you really want a new home buy it for yourself.



Are kids aren't that small any more 8 and 11. The parents said they want to move in, so the commitment isn't if, but rather when. They actually want to see they grandkids more, and like them at these older ages. I actually think the living arrangement itself will be fine. I am not worried about that part knowing the families well. All parties want to have that independence, so we are not in a rush to have them move in, but the option needs to be there. We have wanted a larger house for while, so that is one side of the equation. 



AltaRed said:


> ^ Agree completely. It makes no sense to buy a 'what if' if there is no pretty firm commitment from the parents.
> 
> FWIW, if the OP wants to hedge his bets, there are houses in Cougar Ridge opposite Olympic Park that were zoned for, and built with, secondary suites. I believe they are corner lots so that secondary suite parking can be 'around the corner' from the main driveway and garage. With them being designed and built with secondary suites, they are thus configured properly in the first place. There may be other developments in Calgary with the same idea (don't know). The OP certainly could have a realtor specifically look for such houses.


I know the area. Most of those secondary suites still have stairs going into the basement. We haven't found the configuration that would work, though that area does work. Our realtor has been looking there , among other places. We are patient and will keep looking. There is no rush. We have now figured out how to structure the purchase of the house when we find the right one, which was really my question. The living arrangement and configuration I already have a pretty good idea on.


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