# Garage as an investment



## nobleea

We plan on building a new home in an established neighbourhood at some point in the next 3 years. One of the things we have bandied about is the possibility of building an apartment either above, and/or below the detached garage. Apartments above garages are common in some cities. Apartments below a garage are pretty rare, and not exactly cheap to build. An apartment above a garage, I believe, would rent out for somewhere between the price of a basement suite and a main floor suite. In our area, that would be about $1100 for a brand new 2BR suite.
From an economics perspective, this seems like a pretty good deal. A garage just by itself would be about 60K to build. Adding on a second storey with a 2br apartment would add about 50K to the price. Costs for the apartment are not huge, since all the fixed costs would already be present due to our house. So costs might amount to $150-200/mo (additional taxes, extra gas/power/water, insurance). Obviously there is a mortgage cost to account, but I would be getting a garage out of the deal as well.

If I didn't care about the cash flow, it seems like the whole thing could be paid off in 10-15years and then I have a free garage and apartment out of the deal.
If I tried to maximize cash flow, I am guessing the cap rate would be somewhere in the 6-10% range, a healthy figure.

I understand there would be a drawback, mainly a bit of a loss of privacy, though given that it'd be a detached garage, it wouldn't be huge.

I mentioned the possibility of an apartment under the garage. This would be a basement suite with spancrete or similar flooring on the garage. I am guessing this would add 60-70K to the price, and rent for $850ish. Not as attractive as a top unit, but a good way to have someone else pay for the cost of the garage.

The garage would be a three car garage (double with one stall a tandem). Provides lots of space for a 2BR unit above. I believe I could mortgage the whole thing since the main house would already be built (mostly paid for so can act as downpayment). I'm attracted to the idea of getting a nice garage with little to no out of pocket costs, and then getting about $1K/mo in cash flow after year 10 or so.

Am I missing anything? Has anyone done something similar?


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## OhGreatGuru

nobleea said:


> ... Apartments above garages are common in some cities.
> ...
> 
> I mentioned the possibility of an apartment under the garage. This would be a basement suite with spancrete or similar flooring on the garage. ...


a) But are they common/permitted in your city? There are all kinds of zoning issues possible. Check it out.

b) Unless you are on a sloping lot, how would you put a basement suite under a garage that has adequate window area and exiting to meet building codes?

c) There are lot of technical risks in putting a garage over a living space, as is reflected in your anticipated extra costs. Basements are rarely put under garages for this reason.


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## nobleea

> a) But are they common/permitted in your city? There are all kinds of zoning issues possible. Check it out.


Yes, they are permitted in mature neighbourhoods (where we would be building). It's allowed on corner lots and on lots fronting arterial roads or on service roads off arterials.



> b) Unless you are on a sloping lot, how would you put a basement suite under a garage that has adequate window area and exiting to meet building codes?


The garage only needs to be at grade on one edge (where the garage door is). The other three sides are identical to a house, where the floor is raised off grade by a couple feet and the basement windows are half above grade and half below in window wells. It's no different from a normal basement suite.



> c) There are lot of technical risks in putting a garage over a living space, as is reflected in your anticipated extra costs. Basements are rarely put under garages for this reason.


There aren't technical risks. This is done all the time in parkades. It's just cost. There are a few double decker garages in the city (double garage at grade, and then a drive under double garage below with access on a side ramp). It's not unheard of for a garage to have a basement to do but it's usually used for rec rooms or home theatres.


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## Cal

Anyone else thinking of Fonzie or just me.....


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## wendi1

LOL, Cal.

Personally, while I find the possibility of renting an appartment over a garage kind of romantic, I have absolutely no desire to rent UNDER a garage. Dunno why - there would certainly be better insulation, there doesn't necessarily have to be less light or air, I just find the idea icky. I wouldn't even consider it.

As long as it's properly designed (especially to keep exhaust fumes out of the living space)...


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## marina628

Apartment over a garage is a good idea ,our friends have this and there is separate stair case up to unit and it beats having a tenant in your own physical space.Our friends have built theirs to join into the second floor of their home in case they wanted to use it for kids when they are older.He used a double door ,similar to adjoining hotel rooms except they are steal/firesafe units.He keeps it locked on his side and assume his tenant does same.His home is in the 1 million + range and can also double as nanny's suite so I guess it depends on the market you are targeting too down the road if you want to sell.


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## tygrus

Span concrete is going to be much more expensive than just a wood frame top over a garage.

They have tons of these in SE Calgary. The detached garages are as big as the 2 storey house. They have about a 400 sqft bachelor apt over them and lots of new single new comers in the city rent them.


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## nobleea

marina628 said:


> Apartment over a garage is a good idea ,our friends have this and there is separate stair case up to unit and it beats having a tenant in your own physical space.Our friends have built theirs to join into the second floor of their home in case they wanted to use it for kids when they are older.He used a double door ,similar to adjoining hotel rooms except they are steal/firesafe units.He keeps it locked on his side and assume his tenant does same.His home is in the 1 million + range and can also double as nanny's suite so I guess it depends on the market you are targeting too down the road if you want to sell.


A friend of mine is building one above his attached garage for a live in caregiver for his wife. And the brother in law is doing one above his attached garage for his parents. I think doing it in a detached garage makes it all the more attractive as there's that much more privacy.


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## the-royal-mail

So basically you would be buying and working yourself into a job. That doesn't sound very attractive to me. I would rather reduce my expenses or get a part time job if I really needed that extra bit of income. Not a fan of tenants and all the hassles they bring.


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## KaeJS

I vote for the idea of having a 2BR above the garage.

I think you would be happy with it.

Royal, I agree tenants can be a pain, but it can also be very rewarding and it can turn out to be less work. It's one of those things. Some people can be landlords, some cannot. Also, it depends on how badly you get "played" when screening potential tenants.


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## Pvo

I think it's a great idea. The fact that it's separate from the house is a nice plus as well.


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## marina628

We have 11 properties we rent out now six in Canada and 5 in USA ,this is now our primary income stream with exception of dividends from our corporation.The ones that usually fail at this are underfunded and don't have the knowledge and people skills. For USA we hired managers and they are getting 10% a month to collect the rent and if any issues such as repairs they will get quotes and contractors for us.The last place we bought was from bank and we had to renovate the two bathrooms and kitchen and took up all floor plus painted it top to bottom.Our real estate agent (whose company also does property management) got us 3 quotes and we picked one and sent the money via escrow account.In 2 weeks it was entirely done and two days later she had a tenant signed and ready to move in.We handle the rentals in Durham Region ourselves and had very few problems over the years.


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## marina628

the-royal-mail said:


> So basically you would be buying and working yourself into a job. That doesn't sound very attractive to me. I would rather reduce my expenses or get a part time job if I really needed that extra bit of income. Not a fan of tenants and all the hassles they bring.


Have you ever owned any real estate?You always take the negative view on anything to do with real estate so just wondering why you are like this.I agree with your emergency funds , not having debts ,saving for retirement etc but to most of us home ownership was also part of our retirement plan.If people have the disposable income to afford a home plus do all of the above why not invest in Real estate? Condo Markets I would not touch so we are not talking about the 524 sq foot $420,000 condos in Toronto but maybe a simple 3 bedroom two bathroom home in the suburbs.


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## Mall Guy

Apartment below - concrete and salt (from your car) don't get along. Ever. _"The garage would be a three car garage (double with one stall a tandem)"_ - does that mean its a bit "L" shaped ? Does it give you the opportunity to square off the building with a one or two story apartment (up or down) in the "missing" corner? 

My lot is on a hill, and I have a walkout apartment on the lower level of my house. Even so, I rejected the idea of a basement apartment in the garage I am planning to build. . . and it would have had "normal" windows on 3 sides.

Apartment above - designed for lots of light, sound proofed from below, and upgraded finishes = better quality tenant, and higher rent.


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## nobleea

Mall Guy said:


> Apartment below - concrete and salt (from your car) don't get along. Ever. _"The garage would be a three car garage (double with one stall a tandem)"_ - does that mean its a bit "L" shaped ? Does it give you the opportunity to square off the building with a one or two story apartment (up or down) in the "missing" corner?


Yes, L-shaped. The L would protrude in to the backyard, which means if I squared off that end with a one/two storey apt, it would be looking out on my yard (and in to my house), which is not what I want.

Seems to me that most think the basement apartment in the garage is not ideal. Likely due to a smaller tenant pool willing to live in there (psychologically), even though it would be finished to the same standard as a top floor.
I still like the idea of a basement garage, mainly for storage. Salt is barely used here due to the colder average temperatures.

In an attached garage situation, I would definitely look at doing a garage basement. A home theater in there would be deadly.


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## Mall Guy

can you "flip" the plan and put the "L" on the other side . . . obviously I don't know the situation


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## OhGreatGuru

_...Seems to me that most think the basement apartment in the garage is not ideal. Likely due to a smaller tenant pool willing to live in there (psychologically), even though it would be finished to the same standard as a top floor...._

Let's skip our disagreement over how easily the technical and zoning/building code issues can be dealt with. From an investment point of view why would you spend twice the money building a rental suite that is going to be less attractive to renters?


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## nobleea

OhGreatGuru said:


> _...Seems to me that most think the basement apartment in the garage is not ideal. Likely due to a smaller tenant pool willing to live in there (psychologically), even though it would be finished to the same standard as a top floor...._
> 
> Let's skip our disagreement over how easily the technical and zoning/building code issues can be dealt with. From an investment point of view why would you spend twice the money building a rental suite that is going to be less attractive to renters?


Not spending twice the money. It would be spend 110K for 1100/mo rent. Or spend 175K to get 1950/mo in rent. The second option is actually a better return.


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## hystat

If I had the real estate, I would do a 2nd slab on grade garage on the property with in slab heating. Would cost half of the money to modify existing garage, and the rental would be a self contained unit. We call them bunkies out here in cottage country. I can have a 700 sq foot one complete from excavation to move-in for $25K


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## OhGreatGuru

nobleea said:


> Not spending twice the money. It would be spend 110K for 1100/mo rent. Or spend 175K to get 1950/mo in rent. The second option is actually a better return.


I appear to have misinterpreted the numbers in your original post. But neither did I understand that you are thinking of building 2 rental suites (basement and second floor). I read it all as either/or.


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## nobleea

OhGreatGuru said:


> I appear to have misinterpreted the numbers in your original post. But neither did I understand that you are thinking of building 2 rental suites (basement and second floor). I read it all as either/or.


The thinking is that a detached garage would be built separately from the house. It could be included in the house price and have the builder do it, but the price would be roughly the same. There are three scenarios:

1) build a smaller 26x28' double garage, basic construction, just for my use. $45K. To have it paid off in 15 years, rough cost is $400/mo.
2) build a larger triple garage with a 2br suite above. 110K. To have it paid off in 15 years, my net cost is about $0 to -$100 (ie neutral to cash flow positive)
3) build a larger triple garage with 2br suite above and below. $175K. To have it paid off in 15 years, my net cost is about -$150 to -$300 (cash flow positive)

2) and 3) includes the property taxes and insurance over and above what would be required in 1) which is the baseline. Assuming 10% vacancy. Once paid off in 15 years, there's a positive cash flow of $1000/mo in 2) and $2000/mo in 3).

I most likely will be going with 2), but it will depend on the size of the lot, etc. I am limited with how much space the house and outbuildings can occupy as a percentage, so the size of the lot will determine what is possible.

I did see photos of a pretty nice place here yesterday. He has a garage under his garage with a lift in between. Mind you, he's got room for 21 vehicles in them. Attached to the house and windows in between so he can view his stable. Probably not in my future. (http://www.stellarhomes.ca/index.php/site/galleryEntry/executive_estate_home/)


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## OhGreatGuru

I would still be suspicious of zoning approval. You're talking about building a small duplex apartment building (with a garage), in addition to the primary residence, on a residential lot. I know some communities in Canada are desperate to increase density because of housing shortages or land shortages, but this still seems a bit much.


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## nobleea

OhGreatGuru said:


> I would still be suspicious of zoning approval. You're talking about building a small duplex apartment building (with a garage), in addition to the primary residence, on a residential lot. I know some communities in Canada are desperate to increase density because of housing shortages or land shortages, but this still seems a bit much.


Edmonton is very clear about the zoning and where it's allowed. They refer to them as garage suites with the suite either on top or beside (but attached) to the the detached garage. From the RF1 zoning (the most common SFH zoning):

_
Garage Suites and Garden Suites shall comply with Section 87 of this Bylaw. In addition, Garage Suites and Garden Suites shall only be located:

on Corner Sites;

on Sites abutting a service road;

on Sites backing onto a Lane adjacent to an arterial road, where the arterial road is separated from the Lane by a landscaped boulevard; or

on Sites where a Side or Rear Lot Line abuts the CS1, CS2, CS3, or CS4 Zone, or abuts a Site zoned to accommodate Row Housing, Apartment Housing, or Public Parks as a Permitted Use, and is not separated from these Sites by a public roadway, including a Lane, more than 10.0 m wide._

A variance could get it approved in other areas. There is also an area restriction (accessory buildings must be 12% or less of the lot area). For the proposed garage design, this would require a lot of 8,400 sqft. In the mature neighbourhoods of interest, lots vary from 6,000-11,000 sq ft. That is also something that could be accepted with a variance if the lot size is smaller.


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## OhGreatGuru

Results of a 1-minute Google Search:
http://webdocs.edmonton.ca/zoningby...10_(RF1)_Single_Detached_Residential_Zone.htm

*Edmonton Zoning Bylaw 12800
110 (RF1) Single Detached Residential Zone*
*110.3 Discretionary Uses*

Bylaw 14750
December 12, 2007
Bylaw 15036
February 2, 2009

_3. *Garage Suite* means an Accessory Dwelling located above a detached Garage (above Grade); or a single-storey Accessory Dwelling attached to the side or rear of, a detached Garage (at Grade). A Garage Suite is Accessory to a building in which the principal Use is Single Detached Housing. A Garage Suite has cooking facilities, food preparation, sleeping and sanitary facilities which are separate from those of the principal Dwelling located on the Site. A Garage Suite has an entrance separate from the vehicle entrance to the detached Garage, either from a common indoor landing or directly from the exterior of the structure. This Use Class does not include Secondary Suites or Garden Suites. _ 

Note there is reference only to an Accessory Dwelling located above a detached garage; or an accessory dwelling attached to the side or rear of a detached garage. Nothing about under a garage. And it is only a *Discretionary* use at that.


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## donald

Don't forget the sewer and water/waste(if it is detached)maybe that is incl in your 110k budget but just looking at the numbers it seems it is not(i assume you want those services)
I'm looking at these things right now and it is about 110.00 a ft,installed and will have to come from the main line(so 2 different lines-to both dwellings)
If the detached is on a large(or larger than average lot--8400-11000 sq ft)and is at the back of the property(which it sounds like) that could entail a span of maximum ft from frontage sewer line
And it also increases the property taxes yearly to the water and waste portion.
My situation could be different than your's though but the point is make sure to cross all your i's and dot your t's


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## nobleea

donald said:


> Don't forget the sewer and water/waste(if it is detached)maybe that is incl in your 110k budget but just looking at the numbers it seems it is not(i assume you want those services)
> I'm looking at these things right now and it is about 110.00 a ft,installed and will have to come from the main line(so 2 different lines-to both dwellings)
> If the detached is on a large(or larger than average lot--8400-11000 sq ft)and is at the back of the property(which it sounds like) that could entail a span of maximum ft from frontage sewer line
> And it also increases the property taxes yearly to the water and waste portion.
> My situation could be different than your's though but the point is make sure to cross all your i's and dot your t's


Understood. In this case, the detached garage would be at the back of the lot, on the alley. This is required by zoning. All services run from the alley, so the gas, water and sewer would already pass through that area. A lot of people run power from the alley (in the air) to the detached garage, then run underground from garage to house. The house would be a new build, so getting proper tie-ins ready in the initial services wouldn't cost much extra.


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## nobleea

OhGreatGuru said:


> Results of a 1-minute Google Search:
> http://webdocs.edmonton.ca/zoningby...10_(RF1)_Single_Detached_Residential_Zone.htm
> Note there is reference only to an Accessory Dwelling located above a detached garage; or an accessory dwelling attached to the side or rear of a detached garage. Nothing about under a garage. And it is only a *Discretionary* use at that.


Discretionary to the development officer. They're not exactly hardasses given what they've approved in the past. It doesn't require a variance, possibly notification of neighbours but not sure. In discussions with the zoning department it doesn't sound like it's a hard sell at all. It does not say anything about below grade suites in an accessory building, you are correct. It's a pie in the sky idea and one which would have to be passed by the development office before I pursued it.


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## donald

If figured you would of factored raw development costs.
I'm in the process of developing a parcel and lets just say i am learning is some lessons!
I have a tendency of jumping into the deep end and than learning to swim or shoot first ask questions later!
I can't get a continuous line like you for 2 dwellings(wish i could,but the city won't approve)
I need 2 lines and it must come from the front.
It is about a 12k extra/12x2=24 k total to hook up


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## nobleea

Well the plans are being drawn up now for a triple with a 1 BR suite above it. It's a smaller suite, but lots of storage, windows all around, vaulted ceilings, and a nice south facing deck. Also leaves me room in one of the 3 garage stalls for a lift if I wanted it in the future. Currently, the city does not allow garage suites except on corner lots (ours is not corner), but I expect they will change that in 2015 to allow it everywhere. There will be an energized surface stall to rent as well if the tenant wants to, but i woudl prefer someone who uses transit (bus stop a block away, new LRT station a short walk). I don't know what it would rent for. It will certainly be on the smaller side, but it is in essences a full house, with no shared walls or people above/below. The builder will build the shell and finish the exterior and I will fit out and finish the suite over a 1 yr period. Cost is estimated at around 90-100K for the whole thing. Rent would essentially pay for the whole thing and pay it off in 15-20 years and I would get free use of the 3 car garage. One thing I'm not sure about is how to line up the mortgage such that it is deductible since the garage will be built by the same builder doing our primary residence on teh same lot.


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## Berubeland

I just dropped by to discuss that basement suites rarely see the same return as upper suite because of problem tenants and turnover. Unless you are in a prime rental area, basements tend to have a high turnover and attract lower quality tenants.


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## carverman

nobleea said:


> *
> 2) build a larger triple garage with a 2br suite above. 110K. To have it paid off in 15 years, my net cost is about $0 to -$100 (ie neutral to cash flow positive) 3) build a larger triple garage with 2br suite above and below. $175K. To have it paid off in 15 years, my net cost is about -$150 to -$300 (cash flow positive) *


*

Better check with the insurance agent first on this, to see if they will cover the building.

My brother in Peace River AB, (motorcycle mechanics instructor in Fairview, bought some acreage on the Peace River a few years ago, and build a two lift motorcycle repair shop with a 1br live-in quarters for his own use at the back of the shop.

He started to get some hassles with his insurance company because the garage was commercial and the 1br living quarters is not and although they accepted the arrangement as temporary,they were threatening not to insure the building much longer unless he built a separate house from the shop to live in..but he managed to hang on because he had no claims.
However, he was not sure how the insurance company would handle it in case he had a fire in the garage that spread to his living quarters. 

Last I heard, he was going to buy a mobile home , and haul it onto his property to use that as a 'livein" to satisfy the insurance company. 

If you are just parking a vehicle or two, maybe the insurance company wont bother you. But renting out part of it may also lead to hassles with the fire insurance as well.*


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## banjopete

Hey nobleea care to share what mature neighbourhood you're talking about out of curiosity for a fellow Edmontonian? I can guess based on the your future LRT talk but still, I'm curious.


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## Pluto

Assuming your costs - 50,000 for a upper unit are correct, and 1100/mo, it is a great idea. 

For example, 1100 x 12 = 13200 annual income and 13200 is 26 % of 50000. 26% is really good for real estate.


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## nobleea

If I finish the unit myself, and since most of the utility costs are already required for the new build, 50-60K should be very close. The rent is more unknown. 900-1150/mo I think.


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## nobleea

Holyrood. Close to everything, safe and quiet, but still reasonable pricing for older housing stock on big lots.


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## banjopete

Cool stuff, it sounds like you have a great idea, and what a way to subsidize your mortgage with tenants that can't really bother you as much as ones might if they were in your house. Holyrood's great and indeed close to many things, good luck.


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## My Own Advisor

If you plan to be in the home for >15 years, and it's always rented, that might work out for you; you may come out ahead.

This is after you factor in, more costs to build, more ongoing utilities, more taxes, more mortgage and arguably, although tough to quantify, more headaches with tenants in your house.


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## nobleea

I think it's a more attractive option than that. More costs to build and more mortgage for sure. The incremental mortgage would be more than covered by the rent, even with 30-40% vacancy. Utlities would be separate. There are some pretty neat, inexpensive systems to sub meter water, gas, and power for a unit. ~$1000 and you (and they) can view it real time on an app or website. The tenants wouldn't technically be in my house, since it's a detached garage. There is only one window that would look over on to our yard and it would be frosted. Their main windows and deck look over the alley. In 15yrs the whole garage (including the suite) would be paid for.


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## nobleea

Update: The city has now approved garage suites throughout the city, so it is now allowed on our lot. I've reviewed costs with the builder and 25K incremental to build the suite with another 25K for me to DIY the inside seems to be pretty close. After taxes and assuming a 10% vacancy, the yield would be around 10-11%. Would be hard pressed to beat that with an REIT. The lot is huge (1/4ac) so the second story on the garage won't feel imposing.
If financial independence is all about passive income, then this is something we should do. It's not as 'clean' as a stock investment, but on paper seems to be more lucrative?


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## quyenngoc

*theard good*

so i don't uderstand about the theard but i like it


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## Berubeland

@nobleea You want a nice big new garage. Not everything has to have a return or a high return. Fundamentally it's your home. It's ok to do what pleases you. If it makes you feel better to have an apartment to defray the cost then do the above the garage. 

YOLO


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## 1980z28

I built a new 2 story garage with 2 bedroom apt on the second story overlooking the ocean with balcony for visitors fully done 1200 sq ft and 200 amp service separate from house,sorry lot is about 126 acres 100 is trees 

is this the route you are going,I can tell you money well spent

Well this increase your return on investment,for sure


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## nobleea

We are going to go ahead with this. I have pricing back from the builder and the incremental is 30K, plus another 5K if the city demands the suite be sprinklered. My costs to DIY finish the suite will be 33K. So that's roughly 65K for a 1 BR suite. It's going to be a nice place with 12' vaulted ceilings, nice open floor plan, skylights, windows on 3 sides, all appliances, and separate metering. I think it can be rented for $1000/mo. They will access from the alley and there is room for a surface parking stall if necessary.


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## banjopete

Post up some photos when you get into it, I'm curious to see how it pans out and good luck with everything. It's nice to see the good central neighbourhoods getting some love here with our local government.


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## RedSmartie

nobleea said:


> We plan on building a new home in an established neighbourhood at some point in the next 3 years. One of the things we have bandied about is the possibility of building an apartment either above, and/or below the detached garage.


 Sorry to resurrect such a stale post but I couldn't figure out how to send a new private message. We've bought an old place in Bonnie Doon on a corner lot whose house and garage roofs will need replacing before long, and we were very lightly considering looking into building the garage up to create a small apartment. Your post came up in a google-search around it in Edmonton, and I was just wondering what your experience turned out to be? Is the suite still a work-in-progress? We have an attic and basement suite (which may invalidate us, anyways?) but I like the idea of a stronger separation between the renter and family. If you've got a few spare minutes, I'd welcome any thoughts on the topic. Thanks!
Scott.


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## nobleea

HI Scott,

We're in Holyrood. Our garage is complete with a 1BR suite above, though the suite is only at the drywall stage. I am going to finish it myself. It used to be that garage suites were only allowed on corner lots, but as of a couple years ago they're allowed everywhere in RF1 zones. I think Bonnie Doon is RF3, so that is a more permissive zone. Not sure about RF3, but certainly in RF1 you're only allowed 2 dwellings per lot. So you could have the garage suite or the basement suite, but not both. Unless you want to do it illegally, which is not uncommon. There are two more garage suites in progress in Holyrood and I know of one in Idylwylde in progress as well. I'm sure BD has a few already.

We had to split the permits for the house and garage as the garage was holding us up. Little things like the actual square footage of the suite, direction the suite deck was facing, etc. Minor stuff, but still required back and forths with the designer, and then back in to the waiting queue for permits. I originally wanted to just have the shell built and then I would apply for a garage suite permit at a later time, but they wouldn't allow that. If there was going to be a potentially habitable attic, it had to have suite permits.

The suite design is certainly better than the standard design with ceilings that vault up to 12' in the middle, skylights and lots of natural light. Yet they can't see in to our house and we can't see in to the suite thanks to well thought out sightlines. The suite porch and entrance is also invisible to the house. There is a gravel parking pad for the suite, and we have our 3 car garage below with small concrete apron. I will have separate sub metering for suite power. I could add gas and water sub metering, but power is probably the obvious one to add.

Costs wise, it was pretty reasonable. I'd say the suite, once completed, will add about 80-85K to the total cost. 85K for a 1BR separate dwelling is really quite reasonable, especially if it can rent for $1000 or so. Now, we benefitted from things such as it being a new build. Since we have an alley, all our power, gas, CATV would come to the garage first (aerial) and then underground to house. Really the only thing we had to add was a water line from house back to garage. But the foundation, piles, etc we would have to do for the new 3 car garage anyways.


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## RedSmartie

Hey nobleea, that interior renovation sounds like a terrific fall/winter project. You'll rent out early in the new year? I'm scared to know how many new apartments came online in my general area over the last year, but I think I'm still in a good spot and am hoping to find a student or young professional early next year, myself. We're a heritage property with permanent permission to rent out two suites and to keep people out of the attic, I was hoping to use the second allowed suite as a garage suite. We're RF3 on this side of the street, while they're RF1 across the road but I don't think either allows for more than two dwellings on the property. Any idea why Holyrood would generally have more restrictions than BD? And you're right - there are all sorts of garage suites over here, almost all of them on 800k-1.5M dollar homes, a bit entertainingly.

That sounds like an amazing suite, and I'm surprised how relatively affordable it turned out to be, even given the $15-25k you're likely saving by taking on so much of the work, yourself. Great value for what would be a terrific space for the family when not rented out, even. The architect and builder have some experience with garage suites, do they? There are some well-considered ideas in there. Could I ask how large the garage suite deck is, and how it's set up? Our lot's 900 sq m and I can't think of how we'd possibly be able to add a deck, but it would be a terrific thing to be able to offer. Was it a prohibitive upgrade to go up to 12' ceilings? We've got 10' on the main floor but it makes me smile whenever I become aware of it (toddler-toss, etc), so I can't imagine 12'! We're 9' on the second floor and 8.5' in the basement (up to 17' in the attic, though!) A 3-car garage would've been a dream, too - we've got a bitty 2-car garage, but there just isn't the space on the property for a 3-car garage (or even a grown-up 2-car, it seems). Must be a terrific place - I'll haunt you over the next while if it's alright, mostly to hear how the garage turns out. Best of luck! (and Happy Halloween)
Scott.


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## nobleea

RedSmartie said:


> Hey nobleea, that interior renovation sounds like a terrific fall/winter project. You'll rent out early in the new year? I'm scared to know how many new apartments came online in my general area over the last year, but I think I'm still in a good spot and am hoping to find a student or young professional early next year, myself. We're a heritage property with permanent permission to rent out two suites and to keep people out of the attic, I was hoping to use the second allowed suite as a garage suite. We're RF3 on this side of the street, while they're RF1 across the road but I don't think either allows for more than two dwellings on the property. Any idea why Holyrood would generally have more restrictions than BD? And you're right - there are all sorts of garage suites over here, almost all of them on 800k-1.5M dollar homes, a bit entertainingly.


I don't know why Holyrood has more restrictions. I assume proximity to downtown. Bonnie Doon and Forest Heights are mostly RF3, which is why a lot of infill has happened there. Strathearn and Holyrood are almost all RF1. Our property would fall in that price range as well. Based on your house description, I can assume that you're on the northern edge of BD. Very nice area - some real posh places closer to the valley.



RedSmartie said:


> That sounds like an amazing suite, and I'm surprised how relatively affordable it turned out to be, even given the $15-25k you're likely saving by taking on so much of the work, yourself. Great value for what would be a terrific space for the family when not rented out, even. The architect and builder have some experience with garage suites, do they? There are some well-considered ideas in there. Could I ask how large the garage suite deck is, and how it's set up? Our lot's 900 sq m and I can't think of how we'd possibly be able to add a deck, but it would be a terrific thing to be able to offer. Was it a prohibitive upgrade to go up to 12' ceilings? We've got 10' on the main floor but it makes me smile whenever I become aware of it (toddler-toss, etc), so I can't imagine 12'! We're 9' on the second floor and 8.5' in the basement (up to 17' in the attic, though!) A 3-car garage would've been a dream, too - we've got a bitty 2-car garage, but there just isn't the space on the property for a 3-car garage (or even a grown-up 2-car, it seems). Must be a terrific place - I'll haunt you over the next while if it's alright, mostly to hear how the garage turns out. Best of luck! (and Happy Halloween)
> Scott.


This was the first garage suite build for the builder. Nothing unique about the build aside from the permits. I designed it myself. It is not 12' ceiligns throughout. One might call it an attic suite. The walls are 6' at the edges, and then vaulted to the middle with a large dormer on the alley side. The garage suite has a small deck, about 8'x8'. It's off the entrance, which is on the suite level (exterior stairs). We had to add 6' privacy screening on one side of the deck (even though it looks over the neighbours garage and their house is 100' away). Probably not necessary, but was part of the permit. At the time, I think you could only add about 100sq ft of deck space but they seemed to have changed that in recent revisions to the bylaw and it is now more flexible. Our lot is about 925 sq m, but a pie shape, so our backyard has lots of space for the garage/suite without being overpowering. Costs wise, it really depends on what you are starting from. If you have an existing garage and want to add a suite, it's going to be pricey as you might have to add a bunch of services. If you're starting from scratch, then adding the necessary utilities and footings is easy and inexpensive. We were comparing prices from a basic 3 car garage (with power and gas) to what we have. The foundation is the same, main floor walls are the same (the city required 2 layers of x-drywall which is a bit excessive). Basic roof trusses were changed out to attic trusses. The suite floor is pretty beefy as it has to span 24' - I didn't want any beams or posts in the garage. 

At one point, the city mentioned I would need a sprinkler system in the suite and garage. It was easy to show that I was withing XXm of a fire hydrant, along with at least 6' on one side of the house (to get from front to rear) and they dropped that requirement. I don't think anyone else has had to do this. Insurance took a bit of effort, since most places aren't set up to have a living quarters in a second structure. Had to switch companies because of this, but the broker we went with had no issues working something out.


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