# Electricity rates; the grand deception



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

So..now that most of us have converted to efficient appliances and CFL/LED lighting..we are starting to realize the effects of being frugal. ..Uh huh?
(Perhaps this thread should be under the interest of Frugality), but I put it here because...
http://www.ontario-hydro.com/



> Ontario Electricity Rates Rocket Higher in May
> 
> Electricity costs increased another 4% on May 1, 2016. The government blames the latest increase on the recent mild winter which resulted *in lower electricity consumption.* After raising hydro rates every year for the past 8 years, resulting in a cumulative increase of 140%, the fact that they even feel the need to offer an *excuse for this particular rate increase is laughable*.
> 
> ...


What the he--? You get up at 12 midnight to put that load of clothes in the dryer to conserve energy and save something on your electriicity bill or "hydro bull", and you get penalized for not using enough?


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

carverman said:


> So..now that most of us have converted to efficient appliances and CFL/LED lighting..we are starting to realize the effects of being frugal. ..Uh huh?


Not to hijack the thread, but this was also seen with the water increase in Ottawa.

I think the problem in both cases is that there are some fixed, underlying costs (i.e. infrastructure and maintenance) and the reduction in revenue due to reduced usage (conservation) is hurting the bottom line. I'm not sure if there is a real solution to this unless they change the billing to some sort of hybrid fixed rate/usage rate scheme. That way they can plan based on the fixed rate, yet still reward people for using less.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

carverman said:


> So..now that most of us have converted to efficient appliances and CFL/LED lighting..we are starting to realize the effects of being frugal. ..Uh huh?
> (Perhaps this thread should be under the interest of Frugality), but I put it here because...
> http://www.ontario-hydro.com/
> 
> ...


The low rate for Time of Use pricing is 7 pm to 7 am Monday - Friday, and all day on holidays and weekends. Honestly, these are the only times I am home, so all my discretionary electricity use happens at these times. No need to stay up to midnight to do your laundry. Just do it on Saturday (like most people do) or after dinner.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but this was also seen with the water increase in Ottawa.
> 
> I think the problem in both cases is that there are some fixed, underlying costs (i.e. infrastructure and maintenance) and the reduction in revenue due to reduced usage (conservation) is hurting the bottom line. I'm not sure if there is a real solution to this unless they change the billing to some sort of hybrid fixed rate/usage rate scheme. That way they can plan based on the fixed rate, yet still reward people for using less.


I understand. I used to get about a 10% reduction from my electricity assuage bill, now that is gone along with the debt reduction charge.
Being a senior on a fixed income and conserving as much as I can, they should reward me with a new iteration of the "green energy"
rebate replacing it with a seniors rebate. 

f the user is over 65 and pays the hydro bill, then the rebate should apply.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> The low rate for Time of Use pricing is 7 pm to 7 am Monday - Friday, and all day on holidays and weekends. Honestly, these are the only times I am home, so all my discretionary electricity use happens at these times. No need to stay up to midnight to do your laundry. Just do it on Saturday (like most people do) or after dinner.


Yes, I know. i'm just trying to illustrate a point that the lowest tier is being bumped up to make more profits for them.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

Sorry, but as a electrical engineer who used to work for utilities about 20 years ago I could see the writing on the wall that rates would go up.

All the viable hydro sources of any meaningful size are already developed, and new ones would be immensely challenging to bring on line.
Nuclear has monstrous infrastructure capital and maintenance expenses.
Coal is cheap from a power per kw basis , but costly in so many other ways.

Natural gas was not expected to go up in price as much, and for the last decade or so has been a great deal.

So 12 years ago when we bought:
-we did not buy a huge place.
- picked a place with good southern exposure in the winter, and a big tree to shade that exposure in the summer
- installed an efficient gas furnace, gas clothes dryer, and gas stove.
- insulated the 40 year old place well as renovations allowed.
- have small fridge, and shop wisely to live with it.
- more efficient windows when the mortgage was paid off and that cash flow stream allowed.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

I don't know if it's widely known, but there is a program in place to reduce the monthly bill for low income customers.

Ontario Electricity Support Program (OESP)

You apply once, and if you qualify it reduces your monthly bill from then on as follows



> OESP credit amounts
> LEVEL OF HOUSEHOLD INCOME ($) NUMBER OF PEOPLE LIVING IN HOME
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
> Less than 28,000 $30 $30 $34 $38 $42 $50 $50
> ...


http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/oe...rs/Ontario Electricity Support Program (OESP)

I may qualify some years, depending on how well the markets do in any particular year, but I'm a little behind on my taxes, (really should get on that), so I haven't applied yet.


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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

But wait, there's more on the way here in Ottawa ... I assume carverman, that a few months back you got that online whatever it was called "so who wants an increase in rates to help pay the LRT (electric)" "questionnaire" ... my response, riders should pay ... tbd.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

carverman said:


> I understand. I used to get about a 10% reduction from my electricity assuage bill, now that is gone along with the debt reduction charge.
> Being a senior on a fixed income and conserving as much as I can, they should reward me with a new iteration of the "green energy"
> rebate replacing it with a seniors rebate.


I get the frustration that you were sold a bill of goods, i.e. spend up front with energy saving devices, so save money in the long run, then then they increase the rates to compensate.

I guess the bright side is that with the new rates, that means you "save" more money than you would have if you didn't. Not sure if that is really a bright side of the story, but I guess when one is grasping at straws, anything works.

There are some programs to help out people in your situation, but I'm not familiar with them; however, others seem quite knowledgeable about them.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mrPPincer said:


> I don't know if it's widely known, but there is a program in place to reduce the monthly bill for low income customers.
> 
> Ontario Electricity Support Program (OESP)
> 
> ...


I checked it out. 
it doesn't apply to ONE person living in a household with an income of $36k., even if that person has a fridge. TV, lights and runs the furnace at 72F in the winter months and is a senior.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> I
> There are some programs to help out people in your situation, but I'm not familiar with them; however, others seem quite knowledgeable about them.


That program applies more to low income families (welfare etc), where there is at least two members of a family living in the same unit and use electricity and it is not subsidized.
Seniors on pension with $36K gross and living alone, do not qualify. Like everything else, the disabled get ripped off these days by the medical supply industry... and hydro as well.


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## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

Electricity rates in Ontario will have only one way to go - up. It's the outcome of Ontario's government policy of "investing" billions into Wind/Solar capacity. They did it in a very clever way whereas producers are guaranteed prices forever regardless of electricity prices in the market. Besides, wind only produces power in Spring and Fall which exactly when we don't need it.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^^

Agree on the increase in pricing ... though allowing northern generators to artificially bid low when they know transmission lines are overloaded, win the contract then get paid for nothing as "it is someone else's problem" that the lines can't handle it is another source of silliness. There's also not tracking the generating equipment "maintenance" schedules so that those who are artificially taking their equipment offline are not paid more than they would have been paid to generate electricity.

For the guaranteed prices, I believe it only lasts as long as the contract was signed for. Reports are that newer contracts are for a lower (but still expensive) price.

I am also skeptical of the wind being so limited by season as I've seen the windmills running in July and December.


Cheers


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

I don't think in all my almost 54 years on this planet has either a federal or provincial government so desperately needed to be replaced as the Ontario Liberals.

Hboy43


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> I don't think in all my almost 54 years on this planet has either a federal or provincial government so desperately needed to be replaced as the Ontario Liberals.
> 
> Hboy43


 At the rate the "Fiberals" are racking up debt and deficit, watch the taxes and everything else increase over the 3 remaining years of Mz. Wynne and her incompetent ministers. 

The electricity rates and auto taxes (license stickers/personal license renewals) are just the start of their grand deception.

What about those money wasted gas generating plants? 
Why can't they be cleaned up and turned into a park, so Ontarioans can enjoy at least something for their
1 billion of wasted taxpayers money, that nobody from the Fiberals is willing claim as their doing.

"Not I, said the former premier McGuinty "I had nothing to do with it
" Not I", said the current premier ' Mz Wynne.." I had nothing to do with it either!"

So who is responsible then?

That 1 billion or so, could have created a nice subsidy for the poor consumers that can barely afford to pay their
hydro bills now..and the rates will continue to go up and up every 6 months.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> At the rate the "Fiberals" are racking up debt and deficit, watch the taxes and everything else increase over the 3 remaining years of Mz. Wynne and her incompetent ministers.
> 
> The electricity rates and auto taxes (license stickers/personal license renewals) are just the start of their grand deception.
> 
> ...


 ... the taxpayers, that's who is responsible. 

You see McGuilty et al has no shame in leaving a legacy of being the "Best Lying Premier" of Ontario.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

andrewf said:


> The low rate for Time of Use pricing is 7 pm to 7 am Monday - Friday, and all day on holidays and weekends. Honestly, these are the only times I am home, so all my discretionary electricity use happens at these times. No need to stay up to midnight to do your laundry. Just do it on Saturday (like most people do) or after dinner.


Yeah, that weekend and evening use requirement has totally screwed myself and my household. As a family of four, with two kids 21 and 18, it is a never ending fight for the washer and dryer at night. As my husband usually works from 6 am until 6 pm (overtime to help pay the damned electricity bills) it might be nice for him to relax instead of dodging the vacuum at 8 pm after dinner. Which is also wasteful as sunlight is often gone, so every light in the house is turned on to see that the job is done. Say good-bye to family weekends, too, 'cause Momma's too busy cleaning to keep the electricity bill down.

I'm so pleased our lives have been turned upside down by some corrupt political party to enrich corporations to keep windmills in a parked position.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

RCB said:


> Yeah, that weekend and evening use requirement has totally screwed myself and my household. As a family of four, with two kids 21 and 18, it is a never ending fight for the washer and dryer at night. As my husband usually works from 6 am until 6 pm (overtime to help pay the damned electricity bills) it might be nice for him to relax instead of dodging the vacuum at 8 pm after dinner. Which is also wasteful as sunlight is often gone, so every light in the house is turned on to see that the job is done. Say good-bye to family weekends, too, 'cause Momma's too busy cleaning to keep the electricity bill down.
> 
> I'm so pleased our lives have been turned upside down by some corrupt political party to enrich corporations to keep windmills in a parked position.


I don't think a vacuum cleaner is very power-hungry. If using a central vac for an hour a week will use about 1.4 kWh, depending on the power rating. Even at the high rate, that's about 30 cents.

I can see the merit of shifting electricity sapping activities to off-peak hours (especially those that use electricity to heat, like electric driers and ovens/stoves). For minor consumption, I don't think you should sweat it too much.

TOU pricing is not about enriching evil corporations. It's about getting consumers to see something approximating the cost of power, the wholesale rates for which rise and fall throughout the day. It is very expensive to provide peak power capacity (only used a small % of the time), so it is much more cost effective to charge more at those times and less off-peak to incent users who don't mind shifting their demand to use it off-peak. From what I recall reading up about it, most households only use ~15% of their power on-peak times.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Was in Canadian Tire hydro one was paying TWO guys to hand out coupons for reduced pricing on energy efficient lights.

Hydro has it backwards when consumers buys in bulk the price usually goes down not up. Making the price for Hydro high brings in other forms of energy as well as less volume usage. The government not only destroys the money world they destroy the energy world with bogus global warming crap taxes, Canada supporting hydro power to the United States corruption @ its best.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

andrewf said:


> I don't think a vacuum cleaner is very power-hungry. If using a central vac for an hour a week will use about 1.4 kWh, depending on the power rating. Even at the high rate, that's about 30 cents.
> 
> *Sorry, no posh central vac here. No one with one or more furry pets can get by on a once-weekly vac schedule unless they like eating it.*
> 
> ...


Perhaps the Ontario government should alter their greenlie energy policy so that Ontario consumers get the below cost electricity that is sold to the US. Face it, they have totally screwed up electricity in this province. Like so many other things. That you may be not be disadvantaged by their re-engineering of life does not mean that millions of others have not been disadvantaged.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I am one of those consumers who doesn't mind shifting their demand. I am basically never home when the high rate applies.


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