# Bank draft nightmare (UPS loses inheritance)



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This family got a bank draft from TD for $846 K and shipped it with UPS. UPS lost their shipment. TD then said they would not release the funds unless the executor of the estate agreed to be held liable if the draft was cashed illegally.

Even after the executor _agreed_ to this, TD refused to release the funds. They wanted to put a lien on the home or get other collateral. Now, 10 months later, the money was only released after pressure and media coverage (which is run all over the US too)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ups-td-canada-trust-bank-draft-1.4447384

This story chills me for many reasons. What lessons can be learned from it? As an executor, or anyone else transferring large amounts, what should I do differently? What's the safest way to transfer money safely, with recourse against mistakes and non-delivery?

Bank drafts are out of the question, obviously.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Wire transfer?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Wire transfer?


That would have been my first thought as well. I've moved fairly large sums cross-border in the past and it was always a wire transfer.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wire transfers sound like the best idea.

What about personal cheques for large amounts? What happens if a regular cheque goes missing, does that pose a danger?


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

I read that story online. Craziness. 

In this day and age, I can't see why they can just talk to the bank to make an exception to an interac e.Transfer max limit and transfer the money that way. They should be able to do enough due diligence to confirm that money is legit. It doesn't appear the banks pay a corresponding fee based on transaction amount but rather volume of transactions (unless I misinterpreted it).


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

milhouse said:


> I read that story online. Craziness.
> 
> In this day and age, I can't see why they can just talk to the bank to make an exception to an interac e.Transfer max limit and transfer the money that way. They should be able to do enough due diligence to confirm that money is legit. It doesn't appear the banks pay a corresponding fee based on transaction amount but rather volume of transactions (unless I misinterpreted it).


because of FINTRAC rules that is not necessarily possible. also Banks don't set e-transfer limits. It is set by interac.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I would do a certified cheque for deposit to an account. Then it is just 2 institutions that have to deal with it. If you use UPS or FedEx, how much do you insure the item for?


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## GeoNomad (Aug 24, 2017)

james4beach said:


> This story chills me for many reasons. What lessons can be learned from it?


Lesson 1. Bank drafts are basically cash. Would these people have put that money in a box and sent it UPS? It also appears they didn't insure the package for the full amount, or UPS would have treated it differently. And since maximum insurance is $50K per package, they might have thought twice about what they were doing.

Lesson 2. Don't trust the tellers to give correct answers to questions. Especially at TD. In fact, I keep a list of the times TD has lied to me, made promises they didn't keep, or been incredibly difficult to deal with.

And as has been pointed out, wire transfer is built for this kind of money movement.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I used Canadian Forex to move over 500k to the US a few years ago...why would a moron put the money in a box and mail it?


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

GeoNomad said:


> Lesson 1. Bank drafts are basically cash. Would these people have put that money in a box and sent it UPS?


While that's true in theory, I've yet to see a bank that will cash in even a 5 digit draft without getting in touch with the bank which issued it. So I don't see how it can be that hard to cancel a draft. I understand there should be a legitimate waiting period but the requirements of the bank were absurd here.

But yeah, shipping over 800 k$ through UPS is not smart either.


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## GeoNomad (Aug 24, 2017)

off.by.10 said:


> I've yet to see a bank that will cash in even a 5 digit draft without getting in touch with the bank which issued it.


Barclay's Bank made me wait 7 days on a draft drawn on their own branch 50 miles away!

I was without a car for a week as the payment was for my old car and I needed the money to buy a newer one. In those days the interest was significant, too, so they made out like bandits on it.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> This family got a bank draft from TD for $846 K and shipped it with UPS. UPS lost their shipment ,,,
> This story chills me for many reasons. What lessons can be learned from it?


My understanding is that cheques, certified cheques and bank drafts are similar to cash and potential areas of fraud. What the certified cheque and bank draft are providing is that the funds are held separately, for the protection of the party cashing it. A personal cheque can be written when the funds are not there.

https://www.thebalance.com/bank-drafts-315281




james4beach said:


> ... As an executor, or anyone else transferring large amounts, what should I do differently? What's the safest way to transfer money safely, with recourse against mistakes and non-delivery?


Not sure as there are also reports of all sorts of issues.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ptied-of-87k-as-bank-falls-for-scam-1.2555647
https://pocketsense.com/happens-accidentally-wire-money-wrong-account-9859.html


Cheers


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

2 years ago UPS lost a package I ordered from Amazon. After 2 weeks of "it'll be there tomorrow " lies, they promised me the package was waiting for me at their sorting facility in Concord, Ontario. The place is a bit of a dump, and doesn't excude world class service when you hear 2 employees fight in the background. 

An hour later they told me sorry your package is out for delivery and will be there tomorrow. I left and called Amazon. I'm sure other couriers lose packages too, but I really hope they're better than the UPS clowns in how they right the wrong. Amazon sent me another item and I shipped it to my In laws because Canada post or Purloator does their deliveries. Funniest part with UPS was their customer "service" department offering me 30% off my next shipment with UPS. 

I honestly wouldn't trust UPS with an empty envelope, let alone that kind of cash. I would've personally driven to the brother's house, and delivered in person, or if I was short on time, I would've met him half way. Silly decision, and I can't imagine how crappy they really feel.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

As it so happens, I'm on my way to the lawyer's office in Toronto ( I'm in Ottawa ) to sign the closing documents on the sale of a house for an estate. I already asked the lawyer how he can send the proceeds, in light of the CBC story. He says it's a very rare case; but I think, because of the Christmas volumes and temporary staff, it's slightly more likely to happen now than at any other time of year. 

I suggested sending it in a huge box that would be hard to misplace, wire transfer it, or send an un-certified cheque that could have a stop payment if it doesn't arrive when it's supposed to. I'm not sure which is the best method; I guess we'll discuss that later.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

North America is archaic compared to Europe electronic payments.

The only reason is greedy banks. No wonder crypto currency is so popular


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

james4beach said:


> This family got a bank draft from TD for $846 K and shipped it with UPS. UPS lost their shipment. TD then said they would not release the funds unless the executor of the estate agreed to be held liable if the draft was cashed illegally.
> 
> Even after the executor _agreed_ to this, TD refused to release the funds. They wanted to put a lien on the home or get other collateral. Now, 10 months later, the money was only released after pressure and media coverage (which is run all over the US too)
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ups-td-canada-trust-bank-draft-1.4447384
> ...


Thats a good question James and for smaller amounts I would think that drafts, money orders, certified cheques are fine and at least guarantee the funds are there. It is then the responsibility of the negotiating F/I to "know their customer" and be comfortable things are legit. As a matter of course, for larger amounts, I would think they would put a hold on the monies for maybe up to 10 days. When I was in the business this situation came up on occasion we would normally issue a replacement but again, these were usually for small amounts, say under 500.00. Can't recall whether or not we took indemnities but I expect we would. The only other thing I can think is to have it vetted by a lawyer and the cheques issued through their trust account. Interesting problem for all parties.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Open an account in the same bank and have the money transferred internally.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

sags said:


> Open an account in the same bank and have the money transferred internally.


Doesn't work internationally and internal transfers, as I understand it, do not necessarily work with different names on accounts. As Electic12 mentioned, I've heard and been told multiple times (including banking professionals) that bank drafts and certified cheques will incur major holds due to the ability for bogus behaviour. Electronic means via wire transfer or some other intermediary is the only sure way to go.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

I have a property sale closing today. My lawyer asked for a direct deposit form. They'll deposit the money directly in there - much faster than me driving to pick up the cheque and then depositing it (even though both the bank and lawyer are 5 mins away).

Is this not an option for estates?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

the executor of her late father's will was a lawyer? it was the lawyer who was stupid enough to casually throw a bearer/cashable bank draft for nearly a million dollars into the general UPS parcel stream for delivery to the estate beneficiary?

for 8 months after UPS lost the envelope, this lawyer-executor did nothing, while his client stood on her head to get the bank to cancel or replace the lost bank draft?

in the end the client had to go to the media to put pressure on the bank? still the lawyer did nothing?


what a disgraceful professional
executor fees on an estate this size (at least $2.5 million) are very high
it's a shame this lawyer will be allowed to (mis)handle other estates

.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

m3s said:


> North America is archaic compared to Europe electronic payments.
> 
> The only reason is greedy banks. *No wonder crypto currency is so popular*


bears repeating ... people that are always asking "what good is bitcoin ?" ... this entire thread is one of the answers


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Except that these people got the money eventually and with bitcoin..........gone is gone.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

fatcat said:


> bears repeating ... people that are always asking "what good is bitcoin ?" ... this entire thread is one of the answers


That seems like buying a new car because the old one has a chip in the windshield.
There already exist plenty of reasonable, inexpensive, institutional level methods for safely transferring this kind of money. This story is a knock on the operators, not the equipment.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

My initial thought was that this was a foolish thing to do (Mail a bank draft for that amount). But if you read the news story, they were advised by a bank employee to do this, and were told there was no risk. A wire transfer would have ben $45, not much more than the $32 UPS charged for "losing" their bank draft.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

nobleea said:


> That seems like buying a new car because the old one has a chip in the windshield.
> There already exist plenty of reasonable, inexpensive, institutional level methods for safely transferring this kind of money. This story is a knock on the operators, not the equipment.


You clearly haven't lived in a country with a digitally integrated banking system. It's more like buying a 2010 model because your 1990 model is unreliable and inefficient.. We're stuck in cuba or albania in terms of cars. Crypto is the imported hack. Many Cdn expats are using crypto to get funds internationally now.

And by electronic transfer I don't mean email or text interac hacks.. we're using 1990 era flip phones to text when most of the developed world has smartphones with biometric 2-factor security etc. Not a single Canadian bank has even considered 2-factor to date... let alone APIs or native electronic international transfers



OhGreatGuru said:


> A wire transfer would have ben $45, not much more than the $32 UPS charged for "losing" their bank draft.


In europe or asia it would be free, instant and secure to transfer funds. Wire transfers are from the days of the telegraph network, 19th century tech.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

As a computer security expert myself, I have some concerns about about the Interac email transfer system. It's very insecure, and those emails can be easily forged. You should be very cautious whenever you receive one of those Interac money transfer emails. One of the worst things they do is encourage people to trust/accept incoming emails of a financial nature, when we should be training people to do the opposite -- never click ANY links in emails.

Then they forward you to a bank sign-on, which is horrendous. This entire process is dangerous. I agree with m3s that the Interac transfers are just a hack, and are pretty crudely done. Canada also has a big problem with the insecure telecom networks, with vulnerability in the SS7 protocol. Basically in Canada it's trivial to intercept SMS and voice calls, which means you can circumvent various kinds of lazily done "confirmation codes" that are delivered over SMS.

Overall, the Canadian electronic security landscape doesn't look so great. I think it's still better than the US, but there are many weak links that we have to tackle and improve.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I know all I need to know about the Canadian banking system security because I have never had a problem banking remotely from sketchy countries. US and european banks in my experience are more advanced in this regards, and few have experienced all 3

Whereas paypal, google (even amazon and facebook if you set them up properly) will raise a flag. While google has solved this issue with physical devices (it requires you to have that physical device or key) I was able to bypass paypal's safeguard by simply using a VPN to spoof my location, haven't tried recently to see if they fixed that. With a Canadian bank I've never even had to do anything, ever

If someone collected millions of login data from say VerticalScope (breached twice already that we know of?) and if users may have similar logins to email.. and then their security questions are extremely easy to answer with some kindergarten level doxxing (mother maiden name?..)


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> My understanding is that cheques, certified cheques and bank drafts are similar to cash and potential areas of fraud. What the certified cheque and bank draft are providing is that the funds are held separately, for the protection of the party cashing it. A personal cheque can be written when the funds are not there.


As the recipient of a personal cheque, you can also call the branch where the account is held, and, for a fee, have it certified.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

nobleea said:


> That seems like buying a new car because the old one has a chip in the windshield.
> There already exist plenty of reasonable, inexpensive, institutional level methods for safely transferring this kind of money. This story is a knock on the operators, not the equipment.


you must not move money around very often because i promise you, money movement is a profit centre for all kinds of business, bank wire tranfer, paypal, square, etransfer by banks, the list is long .... all ... of them take a skim off the top ... all of them dip their fingers into the pie

bitcoin (or whatever will take its place) will succeed because the current protocol for moving money are too slow and too costly

cryptocurrency hasn't emerged out of a vacuum and isn't wildly popular because its a hobby for a few people we now live in a global village and we need a money movement system that is fast and cheap and thats exactly what the cryptos offer

in a few years when the growing pains are worked out they will succeed either on their own or by pressuring the traditional institutions to match speed and price


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## redsgomarching (Mar 6, 2016)

as somebody who worked at one of our big banks i can tell you the canadian retail banking infrastructure is so bad. the technology is based on legacy systems that are seen as "good enough to get the job done" so instead if spending the $$$ in revamping and updating they line their own pockets. 

i was there for 2 years and petitioned and sent emails to heads of departments on updating systems and would always get a response saying the cost to change is too immense.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I have re-read that article. Somehow I got the impression this transfer was from Canada to the US - not from Burlington to Cornwall. 

a) I agree the CDN banks do not make it easy to electronically transfer funds to their competitors. There is no reason why not - they standardized their account numbering system years ago so that their machine-readable cheques identify the Institution, the branch, and the account number. Individual banks allow you to make electronic payments to other accounts of their bank, but not to accounts of other banks. This can be done easily within the EU, because the EU mandated it, and recently mandated that banks could charge no more than they charge for "domestic" transfers, which are often free.

b) In retrospect, maybe they should have made arrangements to meet at a truck stop in Toronto to exchange cheques.

c) The recipients could have opened an account at TD in Cornwall for no cost, and then TD probably would have transferred the money electronically. Of course they would then still have had to walk it across the street to their own bank.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> This can be done easily within the EU, because the EU mandated it, and recently mandated that banks could charge no more than they charge for "domestic" transfers, which are often free.


Yup. I bought a used sports car this way in the EU and there was 0 transaction fees and the payment was instant and secure. Oh and no tax on used cars either, since the tax was on the original purchase. Go figure!

2 min primer on blockchains for the uninitiated:






CAD loses value drastically to many other currencies in warmer, more affordable, rapidly developing countries currencies

Therefore crypto is very appealing to expats who don't want to see their purchasing power deteriorate or chip away to middleman


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I got the impression this transfer in the story was entirely within Canada, but maybe I'm wrong.

Looking at that video - with crypto currencies, you still have to deal with a middle man. At some point you will have to convert regular currency (CAD, USD, EUR) to crypto coins, and the reverse. So now you have a question, would you rather deal with the middle man in the cryptocurrency universe or a typical bank? I'm not convinced that the crypto universe's middlemen are better than a typical bank. There have been massive thefts and losses (Mt Gox), huge fees are taken by all coin exchanges, etc. Many people use Craigslist-type local coin dealers to exchange money... which is extremely flaky stuff. Or you can use a Bitcoin ATM which takes a 5% to 7% fee!

Plus I really don't see how any of the crypto currencies helps you for international money transfers. The carrier is tremendously volatile, it could easily swing 20% while you move your money around.

I would take the wire transfer option for international transfer, and for larger amounts I bet that the total fee overhead is less than crypto currencies. Plus you're not watching the price fluctuate like mad until your transfer completes. Bitcoin is down 12% in the last 24 hours. Imagine sending 100K across the world and watching it become 88K due to the carrier's volatility. Next, try to sell & withdraw 100K (now 88K) worth of bitcoin... according to my coworker, it's extremely difficult to do.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ouch: Family's $500K inheritance seized by U.S. border officials

This executor says that TD told him he could mail 500K bank drafts to people in the US. The bank drafts were seized at the border and not released, so now the funds are in limbo as those instruments are cash-like.

What would have been the correct way to do this? I presume that either a wire transfer, or even a personal cheque, would have been safer ways to move large amounts of money into the USA (or vice versa). In the case of the regular cheque, they can be cancelled and won't withdraw funds from the origin account until the cheque is cashed, right?


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

james4beach said:


> Ouch: Family's $500K inheritance seized by U.S. border officials
> 
> This executor says that TD told him he could mail 500K bank drafts to people in the US. The bank drafts were seized at the border and not released, so now the funds are in limbo as those instruments are cash-like.
> 
> What would have been the correct way to do this? I presume that either a wire transfer, or even a personal cheque, would have been safer ways to move large amounts of money into the USA (or vice versa). In the case of the regular cheque, they can be cancelled and won't withdraw funds from the origin account until the cheque is cashed, right?


I have found that the best way to move significant funds is by way of wire transfers. Cost is relatively small. Using a check is not advised since US bank won’t release funds until they’re certain that check has cleared.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Numbersman61 said:


> I have found that the best way to move significant funds is by way of wire transfers. Cost is relatively small. Using a check is not advised since US bank won’t release funds until they’re certain that check has cleared.


Agreed. Wire transfer is THE way to do anything like this.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I don't really understand the appeal of bank drafts or cashiers cheques for anything, to be honest.

I had an experience once where I was trying to instantly move 50K from one Big Five bank to another. I went into the first branch and asked to withdraw 50K cash, so I could just walk it -- literally next door -- and deposit the cash at the destination bank. This would have been an instant transfer as cash deposits clear instantly. Instead the source bank talked me into doing a bank draft and waived the fee to do this.

The destination bank (RBC) did deposit my bank draft, but *did not release* the funds immediately, even though I'm their customer! They said they'd have to hold it for at least a couple of days. So what's the point of the bank draft? In that scenario I could just do a wire transfer or EFT, if I'm willing to wait.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

its kind of the guys fault since you should never trust a bank especially a big bank like td, though it's not at all clear to me why they couldn't cancel the drafts which i understand are more like cheques than cash ... any bank that takes those drafts is going to hold them for clearance as an absolute certainty

to those naysayers on crypto currency, this debacle is one of many reasons why cryptos have value and would be useful ... they bring their own risks but at least those risks are on your shoulders and not interfered with by either the border agencies or large banks


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Why not mail an uncertified cheque to the intended recipient? Their bank will not honour it until the funds clear. Worst case you both lose 5 days float in the system. We used to do wire transfers to Mexico because we were brain-washed. Now we do the above. In our case, our receiving bank gives us the money immediately but that is an exceptional arrangement (Intercam).


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

kcowan said:


> Why not mail an uncertified cheque to the intended recipient? Their bank will not honour it until the funds clear. Worst case you both lose 5 days float in the system. We used to do wire transfers to Mexico because we were brain-washed. Now we do the above. In our case, our receiving bank gives us the money immediately but that is an exceptional arrangement (Intercam).


this would work also, a plain old cheque ... the holding time for bank draft and cheque would almost certainly be exactly the same


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

kcowan said:


> Why not mail an uncertified cheque to the intended recipient? Their bank will not honour it until the funds clear. Worst case you both lose 5 days float in the system. We used to do wire transfers to Mexico because we were brain-washed. Now we do the above. In our case, our receiving bank gives us the money immediately but that is an exceptional arrangement (Intercam).


I move money from the US to Canada using regular personal cheques and it works great, no fees.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I wouldn't move $500k with a personal cheque which is what the discussion was about, wasn't it?


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Looks like the 500K story was updated:



> On Friday, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) emailed CBC with a statement.
> 
> "Upon further investigation CBP determined that the five cashier’s checks were legitimate."
> 
> "CBP is in the process of releasing the checks back to the carrier for delivery."


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/bank-drafts-seized-us-border-td-bank-customer-service-1.4749780


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

It would seem that $100K is acceptable to the receiver. When I bought our condo, Canaccord transferred the money free to American Title. BMO tried to impose a fee but CCD had them reverse it. Once the money was in escrow, the seller gave us possession.

In this case, I would have the recipient talk to their bank to determine what amounts they will accept by cheque.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

These 2 events ($800K+ lost by UPS) and ($500K seized by US Customs) were caused by the same bad advice, given by the same bank (TD) within less than a year. Both cases were eventually resolved happily, after a lot of delay.


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## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

Once a bank draft of mine was lost by the recipient and we went to the bank and signed an affidavit and they cancelled the draft. The same day it was reissued and there was no hic-up.

The whole process was easy and I didnt think you could cancel a draft - apparently you can because RBC did.


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## PineTree (Mar 24, 2018)

In my experience TD now actively discourages people from using wire transfer - pushing them to bank drafts regardless of the amount. The standard line seems to be to tell people that wires are "high risk".


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

PineTree said:


> In my experience TD now actively discourages people from using wire transfer - pushing them to bank drafts regardless of the amount. The standard line seems to be to tell people that wires are "high risk".


I think that is a 'crock'. I think it is because they cannot be bothered and many times, the wire transfer 'fails' due to incorrect Swift coding, etc. on International transfers. Getting the right information is key and I've never had an issue moving 6 digit amounts the few times I have done so.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

PineTree said:


> In my experience TD now actively discourages people from using wire transfer - pushing them to bank drafts regardless of the amount. The standard line seems to be to tell people that wires are "high risk".


this strikes me as a dubious claim ... please list the reasons they gave you that wire transfer is more high risk ...


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

hfp75 said:


> The whole process was easy and I didnt think you could cancel a draft - apparently you can because RBC did.


That is why a bank draft requires the delay until the funds are received same as a personal cheque. And at TD a wire transfer costs $30.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

kcowan said:


> That is why a bank draft requires the delay until the funds are received same as a personal cheque. And at TD a wire transfer costs $30.


yet again a classic example of why crypto currencies have value ...$30 bucks ? ... to move your own money ? ... this is why those of us who own bank stocks need to be wary about the future

fintech is after that $30 .... they want a cut because there is a LOT of those $30 moving around the world every day ..

though true that on 500K, it is reasonable but the banks charge the same $30 if you have missed a payment on something or just have a last minute need to move 5K or whatever and that makes $30 just a ripoff


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## PineTree (Mar 24, 2018)

Wire transfers above $100K at TD are $80 or $90 but that's beside the point. I've done the occasional large wire transfer uneventfully at TD for about 20 years.... until about a year ago .... when bank managers started giving me a lot of pushback for doing wires, trying to convince me to take a bank draft. They state that if one number is wrong the money will be lost (their words not mine) This is not isolated to one Branch. It's incredible that I need to stand and argue to get my own bank to do a wire on my behalf.

I have no idea what it would take to get a bank draft voided nor do I want to carry around a bank draft that large or send it in a courier.

Maybe this is TD pushing risk on to their customers, or maybe it's a training issue. I don't know. But these instances of TD advising people to move large amounts via bank draft seem consistent with what I have experienced.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree with PineTree. It is absurd to consider anything other than a wire transfer for large sums of money. Just get the f*cking data (numbers) right on the wire transfer to begin with. It is not rocket science. http://td.intelliresponse.com/accou...pe=NormalRequest&id=231&source=5&question=How


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I suspect it is because TDs error rate is sufficiently high that the fees will never cover their losses. In my case, they suddenly said I had to be physically present in the branch to initiate a transfer (a lie I am sure) but I decided to find a better way than deal with their bulls*t one more time.

Since a bank draft now offers nothing superior to a personal cheque, they are out of the transfer business for me. And they will never get another FX fee either. Whoever is running their profit centre for snowbirds has been asleep at the switch for at least five years. By cranking their fees to 3.5%, they are just creating opportunity for alternative vendors.


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

kcowan said:


> I suspect it is because TDs error rate is sufficiently high that the fees will never cover their losses. In my case, they suddenly said I had to be physically present in the branch to initiate a transfer (a lie I am sure) but I decided to find a better way than deal with their bulls*t one more time.
> 
> Since a bank draft now offers nothing superior to a personal cheque, they are out of the transfer business for me. And they will never get another FX fee either. Whoever is running their profit centre for snowbirds has been asleep at the switch for at least five years. By cranking their fees to 3.5%, they are just creating opportunity for alternative vendors.


For the past ten years, i have always had to be present at the bank to do a wire transfer. It’s not a big deal and I always review the wire transfer document to make sure the instructions are correct.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

For five of the ten years, they accepted a fax generated by me in the Bancomer office to initiate the transfer. Then when they insisted that I give someone POA over my money to initiate the transfer in person, I had to seek alternative arrangements. It just happens that those alternate arrangements are far superior.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Never assume that the person at the bank is giving you good financial advice or good direction.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

ian said:


> Never assume that the person at the bank is giving you good financial advice or good direction.


Look at the credentials and experience of the individual. Ask them how long they have been doing what they have been doing. They are likely young and only trained haphazardly in operational aspects, as compared to strategic purpose and rationale, of their 'systems'. Indeed, banks rotate their more educated staff through the various systems and controls as a training exercise! They don't know as much holistically as CMFers do.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Also consider how they are goaled or evaluated. Most especially the so called investment advisors.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

ian said:


> Never assume that the person at the bank is giving you good financial advice or good direction.


this is good advice and leads to bigger question of the legal ramifications down the road ... banks are licensed institutions responsible for peoples life savings ... perhaps they need to start to think about implementing professional codes of conduct for certain positions at the bank or finding a way to convey advice that is backed up by something more than just an "i said so"


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

fatcat said:


> this is good advice and leads to bigger question of the legal ramifications down the road ... *banks are licensed institutions responsible for peoples life savings* ...* perhaps they need to start to think about implementing professional codes of conduct for certain positions at the bank *or finding a way to convey advice that is backed up by something more than just an "i said so"


 ... wouldn't this have been in place already? And even then that would be a joke if there is no "accountability" for mere incompetency.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

PineTree said:


> In my experience TD now actively discourages people from using wire transfer - pushing them to bank drafts regardless of the amount. The standard line seems to be to tell people that wires are "high risk".


I agree with Altared's comment that this is a crock. My experience with RBC is the opposite - several years ago they stopped recommending bank drafts or money orders for oversees payments because: a) there was too much fraud; and b) some countries' banking systems can take a month to cash one. RBC recommends wire transfer instead. They even offer do-it-yourself wire transfers in on-line banking at a reduced fee. But you take the chance of doing the coding properly yourself, and I still wouldn't use it for a large amount unless I had previously "tested" the transfer to the payee with a small amount.

I think the speculation that TD is finding it's staff are making too many errors in coding wire transfers is the more likely reason for their bad advice.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> I think the speculation that TD is finding it's staff are making too many errors in coding wire transfers is the more likely reason for their bad advice.


Ye especially when they refer any complex issue to their branch. Good luck with that!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

RBC's online wire transfers are great. This is actually why I keep my RBC account around. I don't use the chequing account for anything but the online wire transfers are fast & cheap, I've been using it to zip money to/from Australian banks.


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