# Analysis of Trump's taxes



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Patrick Boyle is a pretty sharp financial analyst. Link to Boyle's video: Trump Taxes Analyzed (and I've pasted it below)

He describes that the tax system is actually fair. Large gains in some years can be offset against large losses in other years and this isn't an unfair advantage for rich people. Boyle's assessment is that Trump isn't paying any taxes because he hasn't made much income for about 30 years. "He's had some big losses from time to time . . . and written off against the big gains that he's seen, and this is totally fair and reasonable", assuming the IRS allows his disputed abandonment claim for a giant loss (this is currently under audit).

At the end, he describes some analysis that tries to reverse engineer Trump's balance sheet from the available data:
RE assets = $900 million to $1.1 billion
Debts = $1 billion

*"In today's market, the value of his total assets may just about cover his debts"*

So Boyle's assessment is that the tax code isn't letting Trump use some unfair advantage to get out of paying taxes. Assuming his abandonment loss is legit, then Trump really hasn't made money in 30 years, so he's paying nil taxes because he makes no money.

If the abandonment loss is not legit, then Trump will be on the hook for tons of taxes + penalty + interest.

Finally, though highly leveraged, Trump's net worth might be close to $0 today. Maybe this is why he's so angry all the time, and why he shows extreme hatred for NYC?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Sorry that was a long post. Shortened:

This analyst believes that Trump hasn't made any money in 30 years (in net terms, counting the giant losses). He pays no tax because he hasn't made any money; this is fair. In addition, his net worth appears to be near $0. _Trump isn't rich._

However, other analysts think Trump's net worth is much higher than this. They think the story is that he's being overly aggressive on expense and loss claims, particularly one giant loss. So it could be fraud or tax evasion (see Slate). A prosecutor from the Watergate investigation predicts that Trump will be charged with tax fraud.

In a book he published earlier this month, Trump's former personal attorney wrote that Trump “almost certainly illegally evaded” income taxes.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

At this point it's all guess work including the NY Times article. We do know that he owns multiple properties, has an interest in the Apprentice TV show, has done several licensing deals, and may still have a stake in Atlantic City even though he has divested of his casino properties. All these are separate companies for tax purposes. He may take a small salary but most of his living expenses are paid by his companies and can be written off as business expenses.

It is quite possible that his companies pay millions in taxes while his personal income tax is almost nothing. And this reflects a common approach to organizing a business to minimize taxes that is followed by thousands of businesses.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> At this point it's all guess work including the NY Times article. We do know that he owns multiple properties, has an interest in the Apprentice TV show, has done several licensing deals, and may still have a stake in Atlantic City even though he has divested of his casino properties. All these are separate companies for tax purposes. He may take a small salary but most of his living expenses are paid by his companies and can be written off as business expenses.
> 
> It is quite possible that his companies pay millions in taxes while his personal income tax is almost nothing. And this reflects *a common approach to organizing a business to minimize taxes that is followed by thousands of businesses.*


 ... right, like double-dipping on business expenses whether legit or not: 

Ivanka Trump appears to have been paid consulting fees

No wonder he's gonna look broke while she's rich. Both sailing on the same oceanliner.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So Trump is either dead broke and a "billionaire" fraud, or he evaded taxes illegally and committed criminal fraud.

Trump took the "business tax deduction" to a new level. He lives in his business (Trump Tower), has an office in his business (Trump Tower), and his kids have offices and work in his business (Trump Tower). He pays his kids salaries and apparently "consulting fees" on top. They vacation at their businesses (Mara Lago, golf courses around the world) and travel to them in the company jet. They eat in restaurants owned by the businesses. No doubt they use all the services available in their businesses for free. With Trump as President, the kids get taxpayer funded secret service security agents that travel everywhere with them. They bill the expenses of the secret service to their businesses. I read that "golf cart rentals" for secret service agents topped $1,000,000 and tens of millions were paid by taxpayers for the agent's rooms and meals at Trump resorts around the world.

It isn't surprising the Trumps can be bankrupt and still live like royalty.

I think this kind of thing (legal or not) really galls people who work all week and the government takes their taxes right off their pay.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Joe Biden has been in office for the last 47 years and did nothing to correct the unfair tax laws.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Joe Biden has been in office for the last 47 years and did nothing to correct the unfair tax laws.


True. Nobody has done anything about the unfair tax laws. They are all pigs at the trough. No wonder people call to "burn it all down".


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Joe Biden has been in office for the last 47 years and did nothing to correct the unfair tax laws.


I call BS on that. It is not the tax law that is a problem. It is the serial abusers like Trump.
e.g. an Atlantic city property pays 100% of his person jet pilots wages yet that plane is used for all his endeavours. Clearly fraud.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Sorry that was a long post. Shortened:
> 
> This analyst believes that Trump hasn't made any money in 30 years (in net terms, counting the giant losses). He pays no tax because he hasn't made any money; this is fair. In addition, his net worth appears to be near $0. _Trump isn't rich._
> 
> ...


Trump is winning a different game, and using the rules accordingly.

Doesn't matter if he's conventionally rich or not, he's got the lifestyle of an insanely rich person.
Doesn't matter if he won the popular vote, or even the election, he's in the Oval office.

That's the thing people are missing, Trump isn't going to be constrained by conventional norms, it's what exceptional people do.
Elon Musk didn't found multiple groundbreaking new companies because people said it was possible.
He did it by ignoring much of the accepted reality and did it anyway.

To all those who say Trump isn't exceptional, he's done what few others have.
I'm no Trudeau fan, but he's clearly an exceptional politician, by any sane analysis he should be politically persona non grata, instead he's poised to win yet another election as associate after associate gets thrown out.

These guys don't think the rules apply to them, and to an extent, they don't.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

kcowan said:


> I call BS on that. It is not the tax law that is a problem. It is the serial abusers like Trump.
> e.g. an Atlantic city property pays 100% of his person jet pilots wages yet that plane is used for all his endeavours. Clearly fraud.


You're the one spouting BS. They've been trying to find a crime on Trump for 4 years and haven't succeeded. I doubt that you have any information that they don't already have.

But if you do know something contact the IRS...I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It’s pretty clear most people don’t understand the tax system at all, but think they know how it works. For ex corporations generally re not expected to pay any taxes, as this would lead to double taxation and higher prices for the goods and services they produce. Taxes are meant to be paid by the end user. So, if I own a company, the company pays no taxes and I only pay taxes on the money that comes out of the corporation (how and hen that money comes out I can also control usually). Therefore I can own a multimillion dollar company, be considered a multimillionaire, and not pay any taxes since I didn’t take the money out. I can then borro against the assets of the company, and have access to tax free money. Meanwhile the employees of the company, who get a regular paycheque, have to pay upwards of 50% in taxes. This is a benefit one gets from starting a company and creating employment.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

This taxation story is total propaganda. A soap opera story line for the media.

And so what if Trump did not pay taxes? Why is the media so indignant about it?

"In April 2019 .... IRS Commissioner: Sorry, but It’s Just Easier and Cheaper to Audit Poor Americans"

Trump will not get prosecuted. In fact he may very well receive a "Deferred Prosecution".

The Ruling Class are totally intent on destroying Trump. The Ruling Class have so much criminality lined up against Trump that he will easily agree to leave office and keep his mouth shut when it comes to national security and the secrets he knows as being president. Trump knows that the Ruling Class can indict a Ham Sandwich and destroy a person overnight.

I think that Trump should be forced to produce his tax returns pronto.
I recall when governments called citizens "Suspects" and began collecting telephone and internet activities while asking "What Do You Have To Hide?"

White Collar crime is rarely prosecuted. When the media talks about criminal responsibility they forget the 2008 financial crisis and where proven criminal fraud was made and high level executives were not criminally charged.

White Collar criminals all hide behind the word "Intent". Prosecutors all claim that they are unable to prove intent.

Just this past week, FINCEN documents were leaked.
FINCEN forces all banks to report every transaction over 10 thousand dollars. The reason it is at such a small amount was purposeful. If every 10 thousand dollar transaction is being reported it amounts to zillions and zillions of transaction details. Too large an amount to control and investigate. There are so many of them that nobody pays attention because they are overwhelmed.

I recall the "If You See Something - Say Something"
The truth was that the Ruling Class did not want anybody to call in and say something because they were not equipped to answer the phones with a zillion calls of "witness".

"The records show that five global banks — JPMorgan, HSBC, Standard Chartered Bank, Deutsche Bank and Bank of New York Mellon — kept profiting from powerful and dangerous players even after U.S. authorities fined these financial institutions for earlier failures to stem flows of dirty money. "

The American Banking system has been found to be heavily invested in money laundering and the profits are larger than the fines.

It is all about "Enforcement"

"White-collar crime in America “costs victims an estimated $300 billion to $800 billion per year,”
“Street-level ‘property’ crimes, including burglary, larceny and theft, cost around $16 billion annually, according to the F.B.I.”


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Trump is winning a different game, and using the rules accordingly.
> 
> Doesn't matter if he's conventionally rich or not, he's got the lifestyle of an insanely rich person.
> Doesn't matter if he won the popular vote, or even the election, he's in the Oval office.
> ...


Trump inherited $400 million from his father.

Using his exceptionalism he turned it into a negative net worth, while stiffing creditors for decades.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The wealthiest 1% are responsible for 70% of the unpaid taxes.

It is estimated that the unpaid taxes amount to $12 Trillion dollars.

The wealthy hire lawyers to tie up the IRS for decades in courts. They end up never paying the taxes due.

They cross the line when they get greedy and commit criminal fraud. That is easy to prosecute and difficult to defend.

The documents tell the whole story.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Trump and America are a Ponzi Scheme.


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## Benting (Dec 21, 2016)

He said the public will see his tax return as soon as the audit is finished. That was during the presidential debate 4 years ago.
Couldn't understand why is it taking so long to audit. Is it normal ???


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Benting said:


> He said the public will see his tax return as soon as the audit is finished. That was during the presidential debate 4 years ago.
> Couldn't understand why is it taking so long to audit. Is it normal ???


It's taking a long time because it requires an entire committee of people at the IRS. Trump filed some claims that resulted in a $73 million tax refund. Large refunds trigger a review by a special committee, and that's what's going on.

If it's found that the claim is not allowable, Trump will have to repay it with penalties and interest which means he might have to come up with ~ $100 million cash. He doesn't have that kind of money, and he has about $400 million in debts coming due in the next couple years.

I'll bet that Trump is nervous about his tax situation and cashflow. This could all end up with a criminal case against him and remember, Trump is awfully close to a lot of dirty practices. Cohen (his old lawyer) , Manafort, and Bannon (head of his presidential campaign) have all been charged with tax-related crimes. Just about everyone he's surrounded himself with are turning on him.

That's a key tool that federal prosecutors use to go after big fish like Trump. Once they've nailed guys like Cohen, Bannon, Manafort, they can get more supporting evidence to go after the big guy.


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

Does any of these analysis discuss if he's paid taxes for his $400k salary as president of the united states?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

He says he donates his salary to charity.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trump also has a $100 million dollar loan on the Trump Tower coming due.

I suppose Trump was counting on rolling over the debt, but how willing are lenders going to be now his debts have been exposed ?

Maybe it all comes down to winning or losing the Presidency. Winning will help him get the loans and losing may shut the door.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

He doesn't keep the $400,000 salary as President, he hands it all back to the government. I suppose for that, he could claim a charitable deduction.

"
The Associated Press reported on Nov 26, 2019 that Trump's 2019 third-quarter salary went to the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Health, an operating agency within HHS. The funds were earmarked for "the ongoing fight against the opioid crisis."


Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany tweeted on March 3, 2020, that Trump's 2019 fourth-quarter salary was being donated to the HHS to support the department's efforts to "confront, contain, and combat #Coronavirus." The tweet also featured a picture of Trump's check to the office from January.


The 2020 first-quarter salary donation was mentioned briefly by the press secretary at a press conference on May 22, 2020. McEnany said the first quarter would again be going to HHS, this time to "develop new therapies for treating and preventing COVID-19 so that we can safely reopen." 


In a tweet, Judd Deere, the deputy press secretary, confirmed that Trump's first-quarter 2020 salary will be going to HHS for "the development of new therapeutics to treat #COVID19 infections." 


We rate this Promise Kept."


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

sags said:


> Trump also has a $100 million dollar loan on the Trump Tower coming due.
> 
> I suppose Trump was counting on rolling over the debt, but how willing are lenders going to be now his debts have been exposed ?
> 
> Maybe it all comes down to winning or losing the Presidency. Winning will help him get the loans and losing may shut the door.


Sags, I was a real estate investor for 40 years. If you have a property that you have owned for 10 years, that has gone up in value, that you have made timely payments on, and you have a good credit rating lenders will fall over each other to get you to borrow from them. You may have experienced this yourself if you own your own home and have a mortgage. You will be bombarded with offers of home equity lines of credit, and offers from your bank to renew your mortgage for a larger amount to give you some free spending cash. At this point Trump's credit must be practically unlimited at any lender.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Trump inherited $400 million from his father.
> 
> Using his exceptionalism he turned it into a negative net worth, while stiffing creditors for decades.


Is the point to be rich, or live a rich life?


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

From what I have been able to find out the Trump audit comes down to this.Trump claims he abandoned a partnership in an Atlantic City casino that cost him $1 billion. This dead loss of $1 billion gave him a tax deduction that resulted in a refund of $72 million. Now they are saying it was not a dead loss because he got back an interest in a new casino organization worth about 5% of that.
You would think this would have been settled after 10 years. But it is possible to drag these things out if your lawyers and accountants quibble and nit pick every letter from the IRS, and as long as the matter is not settled he does not have to pay back the $72 million.
It should be evident that this will affect his income as well as his taxes, therefore you will not get a true picture of his finances until it is settled.
In other words a certain amount of bullshit is involved but there really is a tax audit behind it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Sags, I was a real estate investor for 40 years. If you have a property that you have owned for 10 years, that has gone up in value, that you have made timely payments on, and you have a good credit rating lenders will fall over each other to get you to borrow from them. You may have experienced this yourself if you own your own home and have a mortgage. You will be bombarded with offers of home equity lines of credit, and offers from your bank to renew your mortgage for a larger amount to give you some free spending cash. At this point Trump's credit must be practically unlimited at any lender.


Trump went bankrupt 6 times, stiffed so many small businesses and banks that he couldn't borrow from the normal lenders anymore.

That is why he owes money to unknown sources all over the world.

I believe Trump's lawyer Michael Cohen. He was so loyal to Trump he went to prison for him, but now he says that Trump overvalued his assets to banks so he could borrow money and amplified his losses to the IRA to evade paying taxes. Why would Cohen lie about it now ?

If true, Trump committed serious felonies for tax evasion and bank fraud. The higher the amount of money involved, the longer the sentence.

I think Trump is a walking zombie right now. He is terrified of losing and going to prison.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Trump went bankrupt 6 times, stiffed so many small businesses and banks that he couldn't borrow from the normal lenders anymore.
> 
> That is why he owes money to unknown sources all over the world.
> 
> ...


Trump isn't going to prison.
Once he's out of office, or they see no political gain, the DNC will lose interest.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Benting said:


> He said the public will see his tax return as soon as the audit is finished. That was during the presidential debate 4 years ago.
> Couldn't understand why is it taking so long to audit. Is it normal ???


That was, of course, bullshit (a lie). This was his excuse for never releasing his tax return. Nothing about an audit prevents him from releasing his tax returns. It's not like litigation where the advice is generally avoid commenting on it while it is ongoing.

Trump lies like a fish swims.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Trump isn't going to prison.
> Once he's out of office, or they see no political gain, the DNC will lose interest.


I wouldn't say so. Any crimes Trump may have committed outside of office (tax fraud, say) would I think be fair game. Obama did not pursue war crimes charges against Bush administration for instance because that would present a dangerous precedent. Being president doesn't grant one blank immunity.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Any properties Trump owns now, he bought 20 years ago or more. Real estate has gone up quite a bit in 20 years. Mortgages come due when their term expires, in Canada that is usually 1 - 5 years but in the US could be 20 years or more, especially on large commercial properties. He won't have any problems getting new loans, worst case he can sell off a few properties.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Every Democrat in America is aching to catch Trump at something, anything. If they had evidence of tax fraud it would be the lead story on every media outlet.

I'm not forgetting a story I saw in a respectable media outlet a year or 2 ago. It was something like "Trump takes money from Russians in real estate deal". If you read the story you found out that Trump did a condo conversion in New York in 1988 and sold one of the condos to some random guy with a Russian name for $400,000. Then a few years later he did another condo deal and sold 3 or 4 of the units to buyers with Russian names. Etc, etc down to the last deal it took place in 2005, or 10 years before he decided to run for President. That sound you hear is the bottom of the barrel being scraped, hard. So don't tell me they would hide something juicy if they had it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm not sure why anyone would expect anything better from the guy behind the fraudulent Trump University. The deposition was leaked recently. You see Trump in his cool reading glasses he is too vain to wear in public. Also, he demonstrates the effectiveness of his one of the great memories of all time by forgetting every single person who worked for him.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Trump may have problems getting new loans. He doesn't just have $100 million coming due, I think it's more like $400 million coming due in the next couple years. The Deutsche Bank banker who previously signed off on his loans killed himself and Deutsche Bank is facing scrutiny for questionable loans to Trump. The FBI is looking into DB.

You think other banks might have some hesitation to lend him money under these circumstances?

In any case, Trump's claims *may* be legitimate. I really don't know, but it all depends on whether the losses he said he has are legitimate. If he really did lose that much money in the past, then it means Trump is not making any money.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> I'm not sure why anyone would expect anything better from the guy behind the fraudulent Trump University. The deposition was leaked recently. You see Trump in his cool reading glasses he is too vain to wear in public. Also, he demonstrates the effectiveness of his one of the great memories of all time by forgetting every single person who worked for him.


On this matter, Occam's Razor says: the guy is likely a tax cheat. He talks like a crook and surrounds himself with crooks (Manafort, Cohen, Bannon). He's been doing crooked deals for decades. His banker committed suicide and he's under audit for a massive tax refund.

Trump is probably a crook. The FBI and IRS will find out. State prosecutors are also looking into it... especially NY State, which has jurisdiction for much of this.

Prosecutors have a certain style. They build up evidence and work on cases, silently, for a long time. They don't go broadcasting what they are looking into or what they are finding. They build evidence, line up the witnesses and paper trails, and then strike. When they press charges, they already have over 90% probability of conviction. That's how government prosecutors work. Silence for years.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Lenders have 2 simple questions they ask before making a loan. 
1) Will this person pay us back?
2) If he doesn't, how do we get our money?

Trump has a financial history going back to the 1970s. You may not believe it but he does make his mortgage payments. As to the second question, that is more important. Even a person with a lousy credit rating can get a loan if the equity is there. I have made such loans myself - and foreclosed when I had to, and got my money back. If he has equity in his properties, and it would be funny if he didn't after owning them all this time, he can get a mortgage at a good rate.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

James you seem to be of the school that believes everyone who has money is a thief, in other words, the only way anyone gets money is by stealing it. Except you of course, you are the one honest person in the universe.
I've been following Trump's career since the seventies. I don't think much of his character myself, but as New York real estate tycoons go, he isn't bad, and compared to the typical Washington politician he is a shining beacon in the night.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Lenders have 2 simple questions they ask before making a loan.
> 1) Will this person pay us back?
> 2) If he doesn't, how do we get our money?
> 
> Trump has a financial history going back to the 1970s. You may not believe it but he does make his mortgage payments. As to the second question, that is more important. Even a person with a lousy credit rating can get a loan if the equity is there. I have made such loans myself - and foreclosed when I had to, and got my money back. If he has equity in his properties, and it would be funny if he didn't after owning them all this time, he can get a mortgage at a good rate.


Most prime lenders won't touch Trump--he's burned too many of them.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

By the way, I mentioned it in the debate thread, but thought I would mention it here. Trump and Melania both have been diagnosed with COVID-19, presumably contracted from his advisor Hope Hicks who also tested positive. Here's hoping all three a speedy recovery.









Donald Trump, Melania Trump test positive for coronavirus - National | Globalnews.ca


The positive results come after Hope Hicks, a top Trump aide, tested positive earlier Thursday.




globalnews.ca


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Most prime lenders won't touch Trump--he's burned too many of them.


I don't believe that. The fact that a handful of deals out of the hundreds he has done went sour won't stop them from doing business if they think they can make money off him. I have heard all the stories of him ripping people off but never heard of a bank losing money on one of his deals.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

andrewf said:


> By the way, I mentioned it in the debate thread, but thought I would mention it here. Trump and Melania both have been diagnosed with COVID-19, presumably contracted from his advisor Hope Hicks who also tested positive. Here's hoping all three a speedy recovery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's where we find out of hydroxychloroquine + zinc works or not.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Here's where we find out of hydroxychloroquine + zinc works or not.


Doctors have been prescribing it for months with great success.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Success only for members of the MAGA-Cult.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Doctors have been prescribing it for months with great success.


I think that's a hate fact against the "Church of Orange Man Bad"


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Here's where we find out of hydroxychloroquine + zinc works or not.


Well, the majority of people will recover from COVID-19 without treatment, so I'm not sure how one person's use of a controversial treatment could prove anything. But I guess that basically fits the standard for evidence among Trump followers.

Actual studies involving thousands of people have shown no benefit to taking hydroxychloroquine, not to mention the potential side effects.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

The experience of doctors who have treated hundreds of patients with hydroxychloroquine and zinc say it works. The studies I have seen that say it doesn't were flawed as they left out the zinc, and it only works if used with zinc.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Didn't Trump already take his HCQ back in May?


MrMatt said:


> I think that's a hate fact against the "Church of Orange Man Bad"


Without it, 10% of patients will die. With in 90% of patients recover! 

Just don't think too hard about it!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The experience of doctors who have treated hundreds of patients with hydroxychloroquine and zinc say it works. The studies I have seen that say it doesn't were flawed as they left out the zinc, and it only works if used with zinc.


Why has this not been widely reproduced? 


By all means, pump him full of HCQ.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Why has this not been widely reproduced?


You actually wonder why the media doesn't report something that makes Trump look right?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

There are some good treatment options. If someone is rich and has private healthcare, there really can get better treatments than the average joe.

Antiviral drugs are one example. I believe there was some success reported using antivirals PLUS anti inflammatory drugs (steroids). And there are many antivirals out there.

COVID-19 is treatable. This is partly why we've had the lockdowns and mask requirements... this is all to *buy time* so that doctors can figure out what treatment methods work. Already they have figured out many things to improve likelihood of good outcomes. My guess is that in 6 or 12 months, we'll have so many good treatments (vaccine or not) that catching COVID just won't be as big a deal any more.

For example in early days, hospitals were over using ventilators and misusing them, and harming people. My mom had this suspicion back in April and I posted it here. It turns out that she was 100% correct in her assessment. The healthcare system gradually figured this out, and now has better treatments.

Trump, being an important guy, will have access to good doctors and cutting-edge treatments. There is a whole toolbox of treatment options available. He'll probably be fine - because he has special access.

However, average people (like us and most Americans) don't have access to the same, which is why Covid is still extremely dangerous for now.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> COVID-19 is treatable. This is partly why we've had the lockdowns and mask requirements... this is all to *buy time* so that doctors can figure out what treatment methods work.


That's the single most important point, we really still don't know what to do yet.
We still need data. 

I think part of the problem is that it's hard to run studies in this situation, fortunately the death rate in Canada has been so low (in absolute numbers) with doctors guessing on the fly what to do, we don't have solid tested protocols, just a bunch of "Well I tried this and most of my patients lived".


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Interesting what you said about "good healthcare" James.

All these layoffs in the US generally mean that people lose their income and employer healthcare. That isn't a good scenario during a pandemic.

The US needs a universal government healthcare program like Canada.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> You actually wonder why the media doesn't report something that makes Trump look right?


I was not aware that media conduct medical trials.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The experience of doctors who have treated hundreds of patients with hydroxychloroquine and zinc say it works. The studies I have seen that say it doesn't were flawed as they left out the zinc, and it only works if used with zinc.


It looks like there are some studies on HCQ+zinc currently in progress but no results yet that I could find, just some anecdotal reports from a few doctors. But if people want to try these experimental treatments that's up to them provided they can find a doctor willing to prescribe it. Maybe the studies will show a benefit, maybe not, but I'm guessing the believers will keep on believing regardless.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> It looks like there are some studies on HCQ+zinc currently in progress but no results yet that I could find, just some anecdotal reports from a few doctors. But if people want to try these experimental treatments that's up to them provided they can find a doctor willing to prescribe it. Maybe the studies will show a benefit, maybe not, but I'm guessing the believers will keep on believing regardless.


It doesn't matter whether there is evidence. Some people are simple. Trump says something, they agree.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> It doesn't matter whether there is evidence. Some people are simple. Trump says something, they agree.


And then there are those who automatically disagree in spite of all the evidence.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Didn't Trump already take his HCQ back in May?
> 
> Without it, 10% of patients will die. With in 90% of patients recover!
> 
> Just don't think too hard about it!


 ... someone is getting desperate here with pushing his agenda and his version of a non-existent "facts" book


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Losing big to make it big
Max and Stacy look at the Trump tax returns, which have already disappeared from the front pages. What they see is the corrupt tax system, whereby the only way to become a billionaire is through exploiting the tax code written by elite law firms and then engineering huge losses to make it big. This program was recorded before the president was diagnosed with Covid-19.
RT - Keiser Report
Hosts Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert
October 03, 2020
(YouTube Video)


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ The question I have is will his team of lawyers be able to collect if his personal lawyer couldn't. Maybe this team gets a free stay as payment in one of his successful hotels and earn some covid-points whilst writing off the stay as a business expense. Or maybe they should start suing or get rid of the IRS altogether for the false audit(s).


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

+ One of the most comical, and politically revealing, disclosures in the NYT piece on Trump’s finances and taxes is that while the Democrats have been bemoaning for four years now Trump’s failure to make his tax returns public, they’ve been in the possession of Congress for 10 yrs.

In fact, the Joint Committee on Taxation has been deliberating for years whether or not to approve the $70 million tax refund Trump claimed in 2010, a committee that includes Chuck Grassley, Mike Crapo, Mike Enzi, Ron Wyden, Debbie Stabenow, Richard Neale, Lloyd Doggett, Kevin Brady, and, just for kicks, Devin Nunes.

+ You have to give Trump this much, he paid more in federal income taxes than many of the biggest corporations did in 2018:
-- Amazon: $0
-- Chevron: $0
-- Delta: $0
-- Deere: $0
-- Eli Lilly: $0
-- GM: $0
-- Goodyear: $0
-- Halliburton: $0
-- IBM: $0
-- JetBlue: $0
-- Molson Coors: $0
-- Netflix: $0 








Roaming Charges: Crosstalk Hurricane


Donald Trump was just one of 43,000 other Americans who tested positive for COVID today. While nearly all of them paid more in taxes than he did, few will have his resources to fight the ravages of the disease and recover from its financial aftershocks.




www.counterpunch.org


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Add in some more who paid no taxes on $79 billion in pre-tax profits due to Trump's new tax law.

Plus the corporations that move money around all over the world to pay taxes at the lowest possible rate like Nike.

Is it any wonder that people working hard and struggling to pay their bills want changes ?









You paid taxes. These corporations didn't.


This story was published in partnership with NBC News. The Center for Public Integrity is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates betrayals of public trust. Sign up to receive our stories. Taxpayers are scrambling to make last-minute payments due to the Internal Revenue Service in just four days...




publicintegrity.org


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