# Whose responsibility is it?



## Lee Ann (Jul 3, 2016)

We purchased a new condo last month but only moved in last week. We have just found out that the previous owners had renovations done just prior to selling the unit. This evening our neighbours below us came and informed us that they now have water damage from our bath/shower unit. Who is responsible for paying for the repairs to the unit below, us or the previous owners?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

You have to discover and fix where the leak is coming from first. It could be the tub/shower unit or it could be in the water and drainage pipes in the building.

Water travels the path of least resistance and can show up a long ways from the origination, so unless the source is known there is no way of assigning liability.

Contact the condo board to see if there are other people complaining about leaks or if they are an ongoing issue in the building. Contact the realtor to find out who did the renovations.

It will take some investigation unless the source of the leak is obvious.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Do you have insurance? You might make a case that it is the seller's fault but good luck trying to collect.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

If the leak is coming from your property to the condo below, no common property is involved. I suggest you begin by calling your insurance company, who should send in a plumber to investigate. This may require opening up the ceiling of the condo below, and assuming the leak is coming from your property, you (and ultimately your insurance company) would be responsible for covering the cost of the repair and restoration. Leave it to the insurance company to pursue the previous owner.

An added complication is that claims over a certain amount may require the condo corporation to pay the deductible, which they will then charge back to you (or your insurance company). The details of this depend on which province you live in. 

All this assumes that you have condo insurance.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Proving responsibility is very tough. As stated above, tracing the source is the first problem. Next you need to determine if it's a "common property" issue (condo responsibility) or a private property issue (your responsibility). Once that is done, assuming it's your responsibility, you then need to determine how long the problem existed...usually pretty tough to prove.

There could be a case when it was a mistake by the previous owners, but you ultimately have assumed responsibility when you purchased. You may have a case to go after the old owners, but is it worth trying to track them down, go to court, etc. When you may not even win.

Of course, if you file an insurance claim, they'll usually just pay it. If they feel there's a case they may go after the old owner, but it's unlikely to happen. If insurance won't go after them, it probably shows what your success rate will be considering insurance companies never want to pay for things themselves.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Lee Ann said:


> We purchased a new condo last month but only moved in last week. We have just found out that the previous owners had renovations done just prior to selling the unit. This evening our neighbours below us came and informed us that they now have water damage from our bath/shower unit. Who is responsible for paying for the repairs to the unit below, us or the previous owners?


First you need to have some idea where exactly is the water leakage in the ceiling in the apt below?
Will your neighbours allow you to have a look?

By "renovations" done by previous owner, were these renovations done in the bathroom?

or

somewhere else where there are water pipes (like the kitchen drain/faucets?

If its in the kitchen area, then look underneath the sink and place a paper towel around the drain pipe and
hot/cold water pipes..if there is any seepage or leakage, the paper towel will be moist..investigate which part
is leaking. If the pipes are dry, 

then check the bathroom. 



1, Toilet gasket/toilet changed? These are wax gaskets and once compressed they will leak if the toilet is loose (rocking)
2. Shower/tub taps changed? Sometimes its the soldering job done behind the taps (inside the wall) and if it's a pressurized leak it can drip quite a bit of water over time
3. Tub replaced? The drain (which is threaded) may not be tight enough and the rubber gasket underneath allows some water to leak if the tub is filled or the shower is taken while standing in the tub. (Assuming there is no separate shower and tub). 

If it's the bathroom ceiling that is stained; 

1)then some water could be dripping from the drain gasket in the tub or shower.
2) water is getting behind the shower head pipe (not sealed properly)
3) water is getting in behind the taps
4) water is getting into a corner of the tub surround and just needs some silicone seal


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

Lee Ann said:


> We purchased a new condo last month but only moved in last week. We have just found out that the previous owners had renovations done just prior to selling the unit. This evening our neighbours below us came and informed us that they now have water damage from our bath/shower unit. Who is responsible for paying for the repairs to the unit below, us or the previous owners?


Your question is timely for me as I've just experienced a flood in my condo in the Phoenix area. The property manager for the rental unit above my unit had a handyman install a bathtub in the unit above us. Unfortunately, he forgot to tighten the drain and caused around $7,000 damage to our unit (including drying restoration costs). I have filed claims with both my insurance company and condo insurance company and they are sharing the cost (very little damage to condo common property). General rule is that you have to prove negligence to collect from the offending owner. In my case, I hired the plumber who inspected the plumbing in the ceiling of my unit and then went into rental unit with their property manager. He identified problem and fixed the drain with the approval of the rental agent. While I am hoping that my insurance company will claim damages against offending owner, they may not since amount of claim may not justify the legal costs. The property manager is being uncooperative and won't provide insurance info. 
This is a very recent situation (last week) my insurance company will be deciding in the next few days. My deductible I $500.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

A condo insurance policy is often $5000 or more. Many times these come directly out of general expenses...which means your condo fees probably go up.

Of course, your insurance fees will also probably go up. In the end, there is only one person who pays...


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> A condo insurance policy is often $5000 or more. Many times these come directly out of general expenses...which means your condo fees probably go up.
> 
> Of course, your insurance fees will also probably go up. In the end, there is only one person who pays...


There are two types of insurance involved in condominiums. The first, which is held by the condo corporation, covers its liability in the event of damage to common property and the building envelope and infrastructure. For example, if the building burns down, it should cover the cost of rebuilding it. If a painter falls from a ladder while working on the exterior, it covers personal injury. If there is a lawsuit against the condo corporation, it covers the actions of the board directors. The cost obviously depends on the specifics of the building. My condo complex, a large one, pays ~$80,000 per year for insurance and I believe we cover personal injury up to $2 million. In my jurisdiction, it is illegal for a condo corporation not to have this insurance. Obviously, this is paid for out of the condo funds and will impact on condo fees. 

The second type is owner's insurance, which is taken out by the owner to cover damage within or originating within the owner's suite. This includes leaks, fire, theft, etc. All condo owners are advised to have condo insurance, but there is no law that requires it. It is advisable for renters to take out renter's insurance. My owner's insurance on my 1150 sq ft condo runs at ~$400 per year. It is this insurance that I was referring to in my earlier post. Assuming the leak went directly from one condo to another, and no common property was involved, this is the insurance that should be invoked.

Apologies if my communication was unclear.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

heyjude said:


> T
> 
> The second type is owner's insurance, which is taken out by the owner to cover damage within or originating within the owner's suite. This includes leaks, fire, theft, etc. All condo owners are advised to have condo insurance, but there is no law that requires it. It is advisable for renters to take out renter's insurance. My owner's insurance on my 1150 sq ft condo runs at ~$400 per year. It is this insurance that I was referring to in my earlier post. Assuming the leak went directly from one condo to another, and no common property was involved, this is the insurance that should be invoked.


Goodness Gracious $400 a year for the condo owners insurance? I guess there is "gold in dem condo hills" for the insurance companies. :biggrin:
My homeowners insurance is a couple hundred more than that, and covers complete or partial losses due to just about everything..except "acts of God".

Nevertheless, being a former condo owner in Mississauga back in the 80s and being elected to the condo board, I learned a few things.

First of all the condominium corporations insurance covers *everything inside the walls* (up to the paint and paper) which you the owner are responsible for. 

So in the event of say a fire, the condo corp's insurance covers everything except the furniture, appliances and
personal possessions that your owners insurance covers or should be covering and most condo boards insist on
the owners having insurance on their personal property..saves the board litigation fees in case of a major fire or loss.

The condo corps insurance also covers the original fixtures, wiring and plumbing in the units.

So if there was a toilet/shower/sink that was *there originally as part of the unit,* the condominum's insurance will cover that..after all that is why the corporation has this expensive insurance, not just liability of a painter falling off a ladder when applying paint as contracted by the condo board.

In the OP case, the leakage down below can be from other causes, not just renovation to the unit above. 

You cannot just take the owners word for it.."ya, we think it started to leak after the people upstairs did the renovations"...
In the investigation...the board has to be contacted and the contractor identified, who is responsible for the renovations.

Repairs are another thing..if the repairs were necessary and done to the original fixtures, then the board needs to know about it and contact the repairmen who did the work to fix it at no charge to the board or the owner.

If the renovations were done without the knowledge of the board, that is a gray area...as the permission to do the renovations was not sought through the board. In any case the condo board should have been contacted. 

In most condos, about the only thing you can do on your own without informing the board is to paint or paper the inside walls or replace the carpet.


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

Be careful about assuming that all condo declarations are the same. They're not. In my case, the first thing the adjuster wanted was the condo documents because there are numerous variations.


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

The most important question for the original poster is "Do you have condo insurance?"
In my case the premium was US$490 per year. Money well spent.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Condo insurance is just there for the "disaster level" coverage. True, it replaces things inside the unit, but usually only to the "original build specs". So, if the unit was built in the 70's and had gold shag carpets, but you upgraded to hardwood...you get carpet.

Your personal insurance was designed to cover the "upgrade" difference, also any personal items within he walls.

As a landlord, you need to insist your tenants get tenant insurance as well. If they cause the damage, say a grease fire while cooking, their insurance would cover the deductible, which can be very high.

I've got a rental, on the bottom floor, in a building with a $25,000 deductible (they had several roof failure claims over 2 years because of a faulty roof replacement. While there is a lawsuit with the contractor, the insurance claims were still needed and they were lucky to get any coverage, even with a 25k deductible, at renewal time. The lawsuit has been ongoing for years now). 

One of the owners on an upper floor had a braided pipe fail on their bathroom sink and it flooded their unit and about 1/3 of the units in the building below. Mine was partially hit as well. It had hardwood floors which the insurance quickly removed, but refused to replace. The original specs said there was Lino down, which wouldn't have been damaged by the flood, so not covered...even though they pulled it out.nthe insurance did cover the damage to the drywall. Fortunately for me, it was only a partial loss and we could replace the wood in a couple hours. Wasn't worth filing a claim to "save" a couple hundred dollars.

The owner above was hit with the 25k deductible and had to pay it. Her personal insurance didn't cover it either. You have to ask for a special rider to cover such a high deductible. To be fair, when the renewal for the insurance came out, he board informed all the owners that the deductible would be 25k and that they needed to check with their insurance companies to make sure they were covered.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Condo insurance is just there for the "disaster level" coverage. True, it replaces things inside the unit, but usually only to the "original build specs". So, if the unit was built in the 70's and had gold shag carpets, but you upgraded to hardwood...you get carpet.


Yes you are quite right. If the original toilet tank cracks and springs a leak or the toilet wax gasket fails and the toilet leaks, the condo corp would have the repairs covered under their insurance. 

However, if the original toilet, tub or faucets were changed because the owners wanted an upgrade to a fancier toilet or faucets,and these failed for whatever reason, the repairs may or may not be covered under the umbrella coverage of the condo corp. 



> As a landlord, you need to insist your tenants get tenant insurance as well. If they cause the damage, say a grease fire while cooking, their insurance would cover the deductible, which can be very high.


And it doesn't take much for a unattended pot with grease to turn into a kitchen disaster..which would be 100% the tenants fault.
In Ottawa, there have been a few incidents in city run rental housing with death and injuries due to kitchen fires. Just the type of tenants that live there I guess.



> One of the owners on an upper floor had a braided pipe fail on their bathroom sink and it flooded their unit and about 1/3 of the units in the building below. Mine was partially hit as well. It had hardwood floors which the insurance quickly removed, but refused to replace. The original specs said there was Lino down, which wouldn't have been damaged by the flood, so not covered...even though they pulled it out. The insurance did cover the damage to the drywall. Fortunately for me, it was only a partial loss and we could replace the wood in a couple hours. Wasn't worth filing a claim to "save" a couple hundred dollars.


I had a similar failure of the braided hose connecting my toilet to the wall shut off valve. I never expected these kind of hoses could actually rupture, but it did after a few years of use.

Fortunately I was home at the time, and heard that funny noise of the water spraying out in a fine stream out of the braid which had actually split open on one side.

I quickly shut off the cold water valve and went to Canadian Tire to find a replacement hose. Found a hose called WATTS FLOODSAFE which has a built in auto shutoff valve. It comes with full instructions (which you need to save somewhere in the bathroom next to the toilet, or tie wrap it to the new flex pipe).

Once the flex hose is installed, you slowly turn on the wall water valve to fully open. If the new floodsafe flex hose should ever rupture again, the higher flow of water will cause the auto shutoff valve to constrict and prevent the bathroom and other floors from being flooded.
This is the way this device is supposed to work, but I've never had a failure so far with it. 

There is a false detection though, ( I read online), if the *water lines are completely drained and air gets in the line*..so the auto-shutoff valve "thinks" there is a failure, when there isn't one, and the only way to get it to work normally again is disconnect one side of the hose and reconnect it again and turn the water on slowly.

Nothing is fool proof as they say, but at least it should stop thousands of gallons of water spilling out damaging flooring and carpets.


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