# Is This Why You Participate?



## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm always curious about what motivates me and what motivates others.

Below is a link via Stingy Investor about the scientific process and essentially you need outsiders to make a breakthrough.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/fail_accept_defeat/all/1

This encapsulates my motivations for reading and/or participating in the various financial blogs. That is, trying to find my 'bullxxxx' assumptions about investing.

What are your motivators for participating? Similar?

Do you see any parallels between this article and other activities going on it society? To throw out an example, does anyone else get annoyed at the phrase "Settled Science" when applied to Global Warming?


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I have tried going outside the box by questioning and holding ideas up to the fire in other forums and it is very hard to get through what you are trying to do and make people take a second look at something. In my experiment I found people will try to figure you out, go after you and will constantly look back and dig up stuff you have said before, to present against you. I don't blame them for doing this, as it seems to be natural thing to do when you are being questioned or challenged by someone.

So it would be the same in everything else we do without enough debate we would not be swayed or take a second look at what we are doing. This is why I believe you have to make up rules after much debate with yourself and others to make an effective plan for investing. Also one must revisit the rules and make changes along the way as you find better ways or information to challenge your rules. You should also always have an open mind even if you don't buy what people are saying. Technical analysis comes to mind as something many feel must be dismissed even though they will use it at times to enter or exit a position.

Technical analysis is also made very complicated as more people buy into a certain method which defeats the method because all the buyers are in. So the method is made more complex in an effort to explain why the simpler method failed and then it becomes overbought and the circle gets ever larger. In the end you should conclude the use of simple Technical analysis can be useful as part of your overall investing.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Most people I know have no interest in finance, stocks, etc. Including my husband so if I have a question or just want some input or new ideas this forum is an excellent place to go. 

Some people have excellent input. So thanks all.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

John_Michaels said:


> What are your motivators for participating? Similar?


I was originally motivated by objections.

As a 14 year old I wanted to invest in the stock market. Oh that's risky! That's gambling! What happens if it goes to $0? What if the company goes bankrupt? Only use play money! That's a 0-sum game! Diversify for safety! Only invest in dividend paying stocks. etc.

The objections were very annoying to me. They still are. 

I would ask questions around each objection and get no answer or nonsensical answers. What are the ways to mitigate risk? How much does that mitigate risk? Can mitigating factors be used together to further reduce risk and improve gains? How does diversification make investing more safe? How is it that some investors believe that the game is 'winnable', but others did not? My questions would go on forever and I would need to find the answers myself.

99% of individuals I spoke with had an objection-centric, fear-based, no-can-do mindset. I made it a point to avoid doing what they were doing. At first it was out of spite and because I was disgusted with them. But now I realize that those who have objections (and cannot solve the objection) are just fearful and would be someone who I wouldn`t want to be around.

A person says that it can`t be done, but then you read about a person who is doing it. You talk with the person who is doing it and tell him that others think that what he`s doing can`t be done. He smirks and tells you exactly how to do it. You tell the original person (who said that it can`t be done) and they come up with another 101 objections. It was disgusting to me. I got fed up with the masses.

I started to emulate those who thought it was possible; piecing together information slowly and painfully. People laughed at me when I was 14 as I read Peter Lynch at the same time as I forked over $500 to go to a Tom Vu seminar. I kept learning. I picked up reading financial statements in my teens. It was a long hard road. My parents were poor. I had no money. I had to start from scratch.

I continue to learn to spite the same people I met when I was 14. People age, but they never change - the majority are still objection-centric, fear-based, no-can-do losers. Forums remind me of this and push me to show myself how wrong they are. The only difference is that I`m doing more of the laughing now.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

That was great rickson9, getting back at those people is almost as good as making the money.

I think it is great to move forward as long as you are fully aware of the risks and hold only yourself accountable for your actions. I find to many people want the reward with the risk but are not willing to accept responsibility when they lose money.


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## mogul777 (Jun 2, 2009)

So Rickson is disgusted by 99% of the population? Thought I was bad, lol. A good motivator especially for a teenager. 

Dog... I would think making money is "getting back at those people". But what's with the revenge angle negative attitude stuff. Challenge yourselves to move beyond that. Show them how right you are, or don't even worry about what they think... beyond getting motivated. Most people don't care about investing or the stock market. Should we care? No. Should we avoid those who are negative and ruin our lives? When we can. I do agree own your mistakes, then you truly learn.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I agree that the majority of the population have little knowledge or interest in financial matters and I've learned, the hard way, that many find this topic either aggravating or incredibly boring. So I no longer discuss investing with anyone who does not show a keen interest. For that reason, financial forums or blogs allows us to connect and hopefully exchange ideas with the rest of those unusual folks who possess that rare financial planning gene.


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## Max (Apr 4, 2009)

Even in my teens, I was always very conscious of the future and the consequences of poor planning. I had a lot of older relatives who were struggling with finances in retirement, which was a great eye-opener that I could not just go through life with no thought for tomorrow. Over the years I watched my parents' bad decisions leave them financially crippled, and while I was too young to help them, this left me with a strong desire to learn how to build my own financial security.

Fear is my main motivation. Though I am also highly competitive, because of my background, I also take any opportunity both to teach and to learn. I try to see what others are doing and through debate, improve the process for everyone.

From this background:
-I tend to be a workaholic in order to feel safe in my job
-I tend to waste a lot of time learning all I can and even more by becoming a know-it-all and teaching it to others.
-I tend to be overly frugal sacrificing current quality of life for perceived future security

Lessons learned:
-Rules are for people who don't know how to think. Don't trust blindly in them, find out for yourself what the purpose of the rule was and its shortcomings. Always question/challenge everything.
-The best way to teach people is by putting every statement in the form of a question. Or is it?
-Many people have different values. Who are you to say their values are wrong and yours are right? Decide your values for yourself, but don't impose them on others.
-Stay humble but determined. Your ego gets knocked down a lot if you expose your ideas to judgement. The fall is less painful if you are already grounded.


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## AshleyT (May 1, 2009)

rickson9 said:


> 99% of individuals I spoke with had an objection-centric, fear-based, no-can-do mindset. I made it a point to avoid doing what they were doing. At first it was out of spite and because I was disgusted with them. But now I realize that those who have objections (and cannot solve the objection) are just *fearful* and would be someone who I wouldn`t want to be around.


Or more likely, ignorant. Most find reading about investing and personal finance quite boring, and therefore never gain the knowledge or skills to execute. Had they been as motivated as you to gain that knowledge and skill, don't you think they could have had a chance to do just as well? 

BTW, as far as financial ignorance is concerned, I would put the percentage much lower. Maybe 75%. However, 50% of the population doesn't have disposable income to even invest, so maybe 25% of the population or about half of people with disposable income to invest don't learn what they need to/should. Fortunately, many of them engage financial advisors which helps to protect their interests and enhance their returns, although at a cost to their longterm wealth vs DIY.

My bold.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

AshleyT said:


> Or more likely, ignorant. Most find reading about investing and personal finance quite boring, and therefore never gain the knowledge or skills to execute. Had they been as motivated as you to gain that knowledge and skill, don't you think they could have had a chance to do just as well?


I'm not sure it is just people being stupid, or lazy, or uninterested,....

I think amount of available 'time' a person has had to learn about investing can also be a big factor in their knowledge level. I am sure there are lots of people who would like to know more about how to invest 'better' but do not have the time after they work their regular jobs, attend to family life, etc, etc, to do so

I guess it is a matter of prioritizing, but there are also only 24 hours in a day, and if you have existing comitments that take up all your time and you can not drop or reduce, what does the person do? Hire I financial planner I guess.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

An individual will work 40, 50, 60+ hours a week, week after week, month after month, skip vacations, etc. and then spend a couple hours a year (with a financial planner) to manage their finances.

An individual will tell me that 'friends and family are more important than money' and then spend 40, 50, 60+ hours a week working and 7-14 hours a week with their family (and never have time to see their friends).

The irony is that when I started focusing on accumulating money, I spent less time at work and more time with my family and friends (at least the ones who weren't constantly working).


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Spidey said:


> I agree that the majority of the population have little knowledge or interest in financial matters and I've learned, the hard way, that many find this topic either aggravating or incredibly boring. So I no longer discuss investing with anyone who does not show a keen interest. For that reason, financial forums or blogs allows us to connect and hopefully exchange ideas with the rest of those unusual folks who possess that rare financial planning gene.


Good point.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

mogul777 said:


> So Rickson is disgusted by 99% of the population?


...when it comes to investing. When it comes to the other billion-and-one things about life, I am keen to learn from others.


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## AshleyT (May 1, 2009)

ssimps said:


> I'm not sure it is just people being stupid, or lazy, or uninterested,....


Who said stupid and lazy? Please review the definition of ignorant of which you may be ignorant.



ssimps said:


> I think amount of available 'time' a person has had to learn about investing can also be a big factor in their knowledge level. I am sure there are lots of people who would like to know more about how to invest 'better' but do not have the time after they work their regular jobs, attend to family life, etc, etc, to do so
> 
> I guess it is a matter of prioritizing, but there are also only 24 hours in a day, and if you have existing comitments that take up all your time and you can not drop or reduce, what does the person do? Hire I financial planner I guess.


Well that's just it. Life is all about prioritzation. Working 55-60 hours a week may seem like a lot to some, but I know many that work much more than that in a week and still have time for family, friends, errands and DIY personal finance. The idea that someone working 55 hours in a week is too busy to do anything with themselves is difficult for me to comprehend unless they require 14 hours of sleep a day, and even then.....

A study I read years ago about successful college/university students made a convincing conclusion that a student's success had more to do with time management (which may be a proxy for motivation/effort) than natural ability/brains.

My point, to repeat, was that many folks just don't find personal finance interesting enough to learn about it. This leaves them ignorant of personal finance, and as Rickson9 has suggested, likely costs them a healthy degree of wealth.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

AshleyT said:


> Who said stupid and lazy? .....


I did I guess. My point was that a person being ignorant about a specific topic may not be just because they want to be; it may be that they do not have a choice at their stage of life.



AshleyT said:


> Well that's just it. Life is all about prioritzation. Working 55-60 hours a week may seem like a lot to some, but I know many that work much more than that in a week and still have time for family, friends, errands and DIY personal finance. The idea that someone working 55 hours in a week is too busy to do anything with themselves is difficult for me to comprehend unless they require 14 hours of sleep a day, and even then.....


So you seem to be agreeing that some of it is that some people are lazy when it comes to learning investing, no?



AshleyT said:


> My point, to repeat, was that many folks just don't find personal finance interesting enough to learn about it. This leaves them ignorant of personal finance, and as Rickson9 has suggested, likely costs them a healthy degree of wealth.


I'm not disagreeing with your point. My post was adding a dimension that had not been mentioned.

And to repeat my point, their are people in the world with prior obligations in their lives that limit the amount of time they have to do other things, like learning about DIY finance.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Rickson9 said:


> The irony is that when I started focusing on accumulating money, I spent less time at work and more time with my family and friends (at least the ones who weren't constantly working).


from your first post on this thread:



Rickson9 said:


> As a 14 year old I wanted to invest in the stock market......
> The objections were very annoying to me. They still are.


So your above comment is not suprising and does not seem to be ironic at all.

Maybe I am missing the point of your post?


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Rickson9 said:


> ...when it comes to investing. When it comes to the other billion-and-one things about life, I am keen to learn from others.


I'm sure you didn't mean it to read the way it does, but are you suggesting that you are not willing to learn from others when it comes to investing, at your ripe age of 38?

If so, what are you doing on this site, other than advertising? Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm sure you meant that you think you can only learn from 1% of people about investing given you've being doing it from the age 14 and know all there is to know, but this is not how it comes across to me.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

OK, here is an actual response to the topic / thread at hand, "Why You Participate"?: 

I've work hard all my life, from university to my professional career. I always 'paid myself first' as I was taught, and have been very debt adverse. I only debt I ever had was for our first house, which I paid off in 6 years. Even university I saved for and got enough programming work during university that I had no debt from my education. 

I was so focused on work and family, and was fortunate enough to make a good income, that I never really worried about how my investments were doing. I always assumed that the 'financial planners' I had were looking out for my best interests and actively ensuring that my $ was making good $. My net worth grew every year, so hey, that is good right? I know most will read this and think that it is crazy; it is crazy, but it is my history.

Then the crash of last year happenned, and it made me take the time to see what my 'advisers' had been doing with my money. Even pre-crash my investments never came close to matching the common indexes. What I realized is that at least the advisors I had were much more interested in how much $ they could make from my $, than my $ itself. My net worth was growing because of me saving more, not because of returns from our existing portfolio. 

Because of the crash, and the fact that I am (overly) idealistic, my wife and I agreed that we would dump our advsers, sell / move everything, and put together our own portfolio that we managed ourselves.

Much of our portfolio today is based on reading financial blogs and forums like this one and MDJ, and the articles and books suggested by them. Now I hope that we will have reasonable gains from our investements while we also continue to work hard to have income to continue to contribute to our portfolio. We are not looking to make huge % returns; we are looking to make enough from our investments so we can become financially independent. 

I am still very new at this do it yourself investing thing, and will likely make some more mistakes, but at least they will be mistakes I made myself and not ones made by someone because they have a conflict of interest by definition (bank financial advisers that is).

So I participate to:

1) Try to learn more and always be open so that I do not form perminant assumptions because I 'think' I know something as fact or because I think it is the way it 'should work'.

2) Pass along the mistakes I have made before so maybe someone else won't.

3) Pass along our successes as they come too. 

4) Help spread the opinions of some of the people I admire, like the creator of MDJ: for example that wealth is not just based on making money but also saving it too.

Here's to the future, kind of appropriate for a New Years day posting....

Happy New Years.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

ssimps said:


> I'm sure you didn't mean it to read the way it does, but are you suggesting that you are not willing to learn from others when it comes to investing, at your ripe age of 38?


This is true. I am unwilling to learn from 99% of the population. 95% may be more accurate. Either way it's a large percentage. 



ssimps said:


> If so, what are you doing on this site, other than advertising? Sorry, couldn't resist.


I am exercising my rights of free speech within the guidelines of this forum. No need to apologize, I am the one who assumed that readers would understand that.



ssimps said:


> I'm sure you meant that you think you can only learn from 1% of people about investing given you've being doing it from the age 14 and know all there is to know, but this is not how it comes across to me.


Actually, I know very little about all there is to know, but I'm fairly confident that 95% of the population can't teach me anything useful when it comes to investing and finance.


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

ssimps said:


> Maybe I am missing the point of your post?


The point is to answer the OP with my opinion. I apologize if that wasn't clear to you.


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## AshleyT (May 1, 2009)

ssimps said:


> I did I guess. My point was that a person being ignorant about a specific topic may not be just because they want to be; it may be that they do not have a choice at their stage of life.


Agreed.



> So you seem to be agreeing that some of it is that some people are lazy when it comes to learning investing, no?


No, just that they have other things that they give priority to because reading about personal finance is as much fun as grating a block of cheese for them.



> OK, here is an actual response to the topic / thread at hand, "Why You Participate"?


Yes, we did get off track.

I participate to add to my knowledge base. There is always something to learn, and often those lessons can work their way out in a discussion created by the question of a new investor learning the ropes. I also participate to "pass the torch" as a way of giving thanks to all those who have anonymously helped me along the way.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

If there is one thing I have learned being born significantly brighter than most people is that for me very complicated concepts become very simple quickly. I do not do anything special to acquire the knowledge I just hang around it and it migrates to the part of my brain that does well on tests.

Yet my small dog who cannot speak, will get hit by a car and cannot untangle their leash from around a pole is significantly better adapted to finding food in the park next to my house  She manages to find thing to eat where I see nothing. So she is much smarter than I am in that sense. 

I will spend my time being grateful that this year I have showed an affinity to improving my net worth and my financial life and that I have been blessed with the good sense and good fortune to continue to hang out with people who have similar goals even if our methods differ. 

I am extremely happy that I am part of this forum. I rent houses for a living and December is a month that is horrible for cash flow, being the way I am Christmas is very stressful for me for years and years now. This year thanks to the Gods of the stock market I did extremely well on a trade and was able to withdraw quite a few bucks to help ease this very difficult time of year and still have double my original capital. 

I find that our society as a whole idolizes those who buy new cars and have big new houses rather than those like me who work very hard on a limited budget have small houses and old beat up vans so it is nice to just hang out with other people who actually like to scrimp and save and clip coupons and trade stocks and fill up our RRSP and argue the merits of which RESP to contribute to. I am confident going forward that my net worth will continue to increase and great things will happen to me and others here


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## Rickson9 (Apr 9, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> If there is one thing I have learned being born significantly brighter than most people is that for me very complicated concepts become very simple quickly.


This is definitely a gift that I envy. Ideas come slowly to me. Tenacious, unrelenting repetition filled with error is the way I am able to learn.

You are fortunate and it is my opinion that property managers are one of the most important (if not THE most important) consideration for a real estate investor.


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## John_Michaels (Dec 14, 2009)

...just catching up on the forum today. All - thanks for the great posts. I see others with many similar reasons for participating in forums such as this. A lot of food for thought.

Just working off the last few posts, I've known a few people like Berubeland who seem to be able to take very complicated subjects and make them very easy. I'm envious as well. Anyone who says everyone is born equal is fooling themselves or has a VASTLY different experience than me. Some are born smart, some are born smart in some things, and well...then there is the the rest of us  

If I'm not wrong at least once a day, I'm not trying hard enough


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

The point I was trying to make is that everyone has gifts  ironically the grass is often greener on the other side of the fence. I have always been envious of people who can make and keep a lot of friends instead of being a book & internet reading information collator. 

Oh yes back to my point.... for most of us on this forum looking out on the world wondering why people are doing what they are doing we should be grateful that we can plan and we can see what to us is so simple. They are not stupid or ignorant we are gifted. We should be very thankful.


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## ssimps (Dec 8, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> We should be very thankful.


This is a really good point; how many people are there in the world that don't even have enough to eat, let alone discuss and debate about the best way to invest.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Spidey said:


> I agree that the majority of the population have little knowledge or interest in financial matters and I've learned, the hard way, that many find this topic either aggravating or incredibly boring. So I no longer discuss investing with anyone who does not show a keen interest. For that reason, financial forums or blogs allows us to connect and hopefully exchange ideas with the rest of those unusual folks who possess that rare financial planning gene.


I agree about the lack of knowledge & interest; I was guilty of the latter not that long ago because due to lack of time, I had allowed my financial advisor to have full control of my finances, but NEVER again. While advisors are necessary & very valuable, no investor should leave them in full control. 

Since I have become a partial DYI, I can't stop reading about the subject; books are the main source for me, but forums, blogs, editorials, etc., are also very interesting & informative.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> They are not stupid or ignorant we are gifted. We should be very thankful.


You have a valid point, however, the fact of the matter is that in this world we have a mix of everything & that is alright, we can't all be the same.


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## montyloree (Jan 16, 2010)

My motivation is simply this...
If you talk about money, that means you are probably going to concentrate on doing well with money...

If you keep company with the folks on this forum, who are serious about money and investing, you'll be kept accountable for your actions..
I find that most PF bloggers are very conscientious with money... that's the case with me as well..

I'm a frugal guy who likes to make money 

Good question... ultimately if you don't talk about it, or concentrate on it, you're not going to keep as sharp as if you do.


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