# Best points credit card?



## bootsie

In interested in knowing the forums thoughts on best points credit card. I spend about 2,000 a month on the one credit card -- pay it off at end of month. But am wondering which NO FEE credit card is best.. I currently use PC Mastercard. 

Use points for groceries


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## FrugalTrader

@Bootsie, I'm a big follower of credit cards. If you are looking for a no fee card, I like the MBNA Smart Cash credit card. 

Here is my comparison of top cash back credit cards in Canada or top rewards credit cards.


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## clovis8

I got the CIBC areogold infinite card 5 months ago. 

15k miles to sign up
It's 1$=1mile. 
It also has a lot of extra miles for various things. 
it does have an annual fee

I have already got a free flight to Florida and still have 15k miles left over, in only 5 month. Granted I use it a lot.

To be fair, I have not made extensive comparisons but this card seems above average.


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## Sustainable PF

Here is the site I use to compare CCs (and to save a ton all over the place!)

http://www.howtosavemoney.ca/Finances/CreditCards/BestCreditCardsInCanada

My opinion? For cashback, MBNA Smart Cash Platinum MasterCard. For travel points I like, Capital One Aspire World MasterCard.


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## Jungle

Here is what we've used recently:

MBNA smart cash, 3% on grocery and gas, 1% everything else. 
Westjet world mastercard, annual fee waived first year, 1.5% in westjet dollars 
AMEX spg card, 11000 points sign up bonus, first year waived (used 12000 points on $400USD room..)
GM visa card, 3% GM dollars, 3% 5 month cash back promo last year

I'm not sure who is the king of travel rewards now. But I can say that I know of nothing that beats the smartcash for grocery and gas. Card is no fee.


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## carverman

bootsie said:


> In interested in knowing the forums thoughts on best points credit card. I spend about 2,000 a month on the one credit card -- pay it off at end of month. But am wondering which NO FEE credit card is best.. I currently use PC Mastercard.
> 
> Use points for groceries


I have the same CC and of course the no fees PC banking.
Yes, you do get free grocery points but its on a 100 to 1 basis which means
for every $100 you spend with the MC, you get $1 worth of groceries at
Loblaws or their afflilate grocery store. The minimum you can cash in
is $20, so that requires CC purchases of $2000.

I also pay off the high interest CC when it is due..because I'm not going
to pay them 20% interest when I can borrow money (if I need to) at a
much cheaper rate of less than 5% on my LOC.

There are many affliate cards...I don't travel, so I have no use for air miles.
I only have one other credit card and that's the H-D card that I only use
for the 6 month or 1 year interest free deals..and pay it off with a check
at the local h-D store at least 10 days before it's due to avoid almost
30% interest charges.

What is a "smart CC card"?..it's the one you can pay off a couple of days
before the interest is due. To me that's using the card smartly and
avoiding any CC interest. I shudder when I hear about couples incurring
thousands of dollars in CC debt and interest...if you pay the minimum rate
it will take over 30 years or more to pay it off..that's what credit card
companies like. They must hate people like me that use the card as
convenience and getting a few dollars of groceries out of them.

Incidently, I had one of those GM affliate CC cards a few years ago..accrued
several hundred dollars in points and when I was ready to buy a vehicle
(truck),,the local dealer started to nickel and dime me on this and that..
and when it was all totalled up..even with the "GM dollars" it wasn't such
a good deal compared to the Chrysler dealer that gave me a much better
deal without any CC card points, so in the end, all those points I collected
where wasted when I cancelled the CC.

Those cards are to attract people into the specific car companies 
showrooms, thinking you can get a " better deal"...you can get the
same deal or better by just going to the competition and mentioning that
you got a quote from such and such and looking for a better deal.

Ford is offering $1000 off if you are a Costco customer..so the GM
affinity card is no big deal.


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## I'm Howard

I use Citibank Drivers Edge, No Fees, 2% towards any car, new or used.


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## slacker

*sigh* I also indulge in the reward credit cards. But ultimately, we all pay for it one way or another. Some "premium" credit cards charge the merchant as much as 4% of the transaction. That cost is directly pass to the customers, both cash and CC users alike.


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## Addy

We use TD Infinite Travel card... there's a big annual fee (I think it's over $200/yr for our two cards) but we have Select Service (no monthly fees for Select Service if you have 5K to stick in there). Right now, with low interest on savings, it's worth our while to do that and pay nothing. We spend just under $4K/m on our visa and we get back somewhere around $1000/yr in travel money (not points, money). When we book through TD travel agents we get 3X the credits, so the cash adds up quickly. 

But of course this is only good if you like to travel a fair bit. I'm sure there's a better card for people in different situations.


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## carverman

Addy said:


> We use TD Infinite Travel card... there's a big annual fee (I think it's over $200/yr for our two cards) but we have Select Service (no monthly fees for Select Service if you have 5K to stick in there). Right now, with low interest on savings, it's worth our while to do that and pay nothing. But of course this is only good if you like to travel a fair bit. I'm sure there's a better card for people in different situations.


Did you say you need to put in a deposit of $5k against your TD visa
travel card(s) to enjoy "service charge free cards"? 

Ok, so you say, you pay a fee of $100 (per card) and you enjoy the benefits..travel $...but either way, their card demands some kind of fee for their use..like you pay $200 up front ...or you deposit $5k up front with them
and get them for "free".

Now interest rates are very low on savings accts...(around 1.5% ), so if you put that $5k in a daily interest acct, you would probably earn $75 annually against the $5k, and that would be taxable as well, so I suppose, 
you are ahead of the game if you just pay the $200 for the cards up front. 

The big problem in this economy, is having $5k available that you have already saved up, to be able to deposit that money for a long time.


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## atrp2biz

carverman said:


> Did you say you need to put in a deposit of $5k against your TD visa
> travel card(s) to enjoy "service charge free cards"?
> 
> Ok, so you say, you pay a fee of $100 (per card) and you enjoy the benefits..travel $...but either way, their card demands some kind of fee for their use..like you pay $200 up front ...or you deposit $5k up front with them
> and get them for "free".
> 
> Now interest rates are very low on savings accts...(around 1.5% ), so if you put that $5k in a daily interest acct, you would probably earn $75 annually against the $5k, and that would be taxable as well, so I suppose,
> you are ahead of the game if you just pay the $200 for the cards up front.
> 
> The big problem in this economy, is having $5k available that you have already saved up, to be able to deposit that money for a long time.


The Select Service chequing account is TD's bells and whistles account option. One of the features is waiving the annual fee (including a supplemental card) on the TD Infinite Visa card. The monthly cost of the SS account is $29, however if you maintain a balance of $5000 throughout the month, those fees are waived. 

I have this account but have been debating getting the Capital One Aspire. The point value conversion is 2%, compared to 1.5% for the TD Infinite card. Capital One also provides annual point bonuses which equal in value to the annual fee ($120ish I think???). The only thing stopping me is a I like being able to see everything when I log into my TD account.


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## carverman

atrp2biz said:


> The Select Service chequing account is TD's bells and whistles account option. One of the features is waiving the annual fee (including a supplemental card) on the TD Infinite Visa card. The monthly cost of the SS account is $29, however if you maintain a balance of $5000 throughout the month, those fees are waived.


So it's a win-win? If you don't deposit the $5k, you have to pay $348 in yearly service charges + $100 for the
SS visa card ($448?)..if you deposit $5k, you get a "fee free" acct, but 
then the bank is using your money for loans at 5-8% interest charged
on LOC or personal loans..so if one can repay that loan over 3 years,
they make $220 a year interest on your money.


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## atrp2biz

carverman said:


> So it's a win-win? If you don't deposit the $5k, you have to pay $348 in yearly service charges + $100 for the
> SS visa card ($448?)..if you deposit $5k, you get a "fee free" acct, but
> then the bank is using your money for loans at 5-8% interest charged
> on LOC or personal loans..so if one can repay that loan over 3 years,
> they make $220 a year interest on your money.


First of all, the credit card comes with the plan, so you don't have to pay for the plan and the card.

Secondly, it's a cheap way to get all the features you need. What are YOUR opportunity costs. It's irrelevant what the bank does with your money. If you put the $5000 into a savings account, you would yield $100 per year before taxes. At a marginal rate of 35%, this plan would cost you $65 per year or $5.42 per month after taxes. I'm happy with leaving this money in the account and getting all the benefits that come with the plan.


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## Sampson

I think its a pretty reasonable deal also, and have an account myself. I consider the funds as emergency, and the few dollars extra I would earn parking my cash elsewhere is insignificant to me. For me, the Auto club membership, safety deposit box, and free USD VISA more than make up for the loss interest by parking my $5k in an account earning only 2%.

Here are a few other benefits of the account (stolen from a different thread)

Highlights:

* All the perks of Select Service account = $300 yearly savings
* Annual fee waived on TD Gold Elite Visa = $99 yearly savings
* Free Deluxe TD Auto Club Membership = $79 yearly savings
* Unlimited Interac ABM and PLUS system withdrawals = $40 yearly savings
* 1% Annual Cash Rebate on purchases = $80 dollar earned
* More perks with TD Gold Elite Card
o Trip Interruption Insurance
o No-Fee Travellers Cheques
o Common Carrier Travel Accident Insurance
o Emergency Travel Assistance Services
o Delayed and Lost Baggage Insurance
o CardAssist Card Registry Service
o Purchase security and extended warranty protection
* More perks with TD Select Service Chequings Account
o Free drafts and certified cheques
o Free small safety deposit box (subject to availability)
o No commission fee for Canadian and U.S. dollar travellers cheques
o 1/4% interest bonus on 1 - 5 Year GICs
o Free Borderless Plan with U.S. Dollar Daily Interest Chequing Account


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## Sampson

Last benefit, TD gave me $250 free! That will cover the interest differential from holding the $5k elsewhere for 2-3 years at the current rates.


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## rookie

is the 250$ reward back in the game? i was late last time. so i put off signing up till the deal came back again...


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## Sampson

No, I signed up a few months ago.


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## Addy

We signed up a while ago (maybe six months ago, but I'm just guessing) and never got the $250. Does anyone know when the promo was for sure on? If we are entitled to the $ I'm darn well going to ask for it!


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## marina628

I just got this account in the past month ,I was spending about $10.00+ in ATM fees so a great deal for me as well.I also get 4-6 certified checks a year ,travel to europe for business 1-2 times a year so quite a good return for having to keep $5000 there.


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## Young&Ambitious

Hmm some of those cash-back no-fee sounds great if I'm reading that correctly (I'm doing a quick scan), but I have a Vancity (credit union) card and I just put $100 towards my rrsp with my points although I've been meaning to look to see how much spending it took me to get there


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## atrp2biz

I applied for the Capital One Aspire card earlier this week (points worth 2% of total purchases). I'll probably use this card for most of my purchases except for flights, where I will use the TD Infinite card and the Rewards Centre. Some how, the Rewards Centre has provided better deals than Kayak or any other sites I go to for flights.

Anyone else have the Aspire card? I especially like the 22 days of emergency coverage outside of Canada and the additional two years warranty coverage.


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## james4beach

An old thread, but maybe we can update this for 2018: what are the best points or cash rewards cards people have found?

I currently use PC Financial World Elite, no annual fee, which earns 1% on any purchase and 3% in their stores (Superstore, Loblaws, Shoppers Drug Mart, etc). The points can be redeemed in their stores. I also like that it includes rental car collision/damage insurance.

Are there other good no-fee reward cards that give a high% cash reward?


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## FrugalTrader

Canadian Tire Triangle (brand new) MasterCard offers 4% cash back when shopping at Canadian Tire, SportChek and Men's Work Warehouse. The new Rogers World Elite MasterCard coming in June will offer 1.75% cash back on all purchases (not just specific store) and 4% cash back on foreign purchases.


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## agent99

james4beach said:


> An old thread, but maybe we can update this for 2018: what are the best points or cash rewards cards people have found?
> 
> I currently use PC Financial World Elite, no annual fee, which earns 1% on any purchase and 3% in their stores (Superstore, Loblaws, Shoppers Drug Mart, etc). The points can be redeemed in their stores. I also like that it includes rental car collision/damage insurance.
> 
> Are there other good no-fee reward cards that give a high% cash reward?


By the way, there are several other threads on credit cards, so not sure you needed to continue the one! Anyway....

Don't get too hung up on the no-fee. The additional benefits of a fee card can more than offset the fee.

We have signed up through Amazon.ca for the Scotia Bank Momentum Infinite card.. It offer 4% cashback on Groceries and Gas, 2% on recurring bills and drug store purchases plus 1% on everything else. The fee (waived for first year) is $99.00. For us, the cashback will amount to about $1200. Almost double what we would get with no-fee cards. They also offer a $75 Amazon credit if you sign up through Amazon. Cash back is only paid at end of year.

For US$ FX, we mostly just sell a dual traded stock on US side, but we may get the Home Trust card or something similar for use when Snowbirding. 

Our BMO M/C only provides 0.5% in Airmiles. It will now once again just be a reserve card. In past we had the Amazon Chase Visa card.


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## Mortgage u/w

Agree with Scotiabank Momentum cards. I too have the infinite card - the fee more than covers itself ($99+$39 for spousal card) but easily $1000 annual return. There are many additional benefits with this card such as travel and car-rental insurance. I've always valued cashback vs points.


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## james4beach

Let's say I want to stick with a no-fee card, though. My reason is that I have an excellent points card in the US, so I'm only using my Canadian one for bursts of time when I'm in Canada. But I could go 6 months without using the card.

Is Rogers World Elite (which looks like it will have 1.75% cash back rewards) probably going to be the best option, when it's available? I'm suspicious of that 1.75%. That makes it higher than the best/well established US no fee cash back cards which are around 1.5% (e.g. Capital One Quicksilver). I _suspect_ that Rogers... given their nature... will have some weird restrictions or hoops to jump through.

Can I do better than the current PC World Elite that I use? I consider the PC points almost as good as a cash reward, but I'd love to get more than 1% "cash" back on any purchase.


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## Spudd

The restrictions are that you can use the cash back to purchase Rogers goods/services. If you want actual cash, you can get it (at least with the current card, but you should double-check that the new one's fine print hasn't changed) by phoning in once a year and asking for a statement credit.


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## SW20 MR2

If you shop at a PC-affiliated store, you won't get a better return. The cards that offer in-brand rewards (eg. Loblaws, Rogers, etc) will always be able to offer more lucrative rewards because it drives in-store revenue for them when you use your points. 

Also, you can't compare US and Canada cards. The interchange structure (ie. the amount of money that the card issuer makes per transaction) is significantly higher in the US, so they can afford to pay higher rewards.


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## ian

We signed up for the Capital One Aspire card six months ago.

We submitted a travel cancellation insurance claim-medical issues. Their insurer was World Travel Protection Canada.

Called the card issuer. They sent me to the insurer. Called the insurer. The gave me a claim number and emailed the forms.

After submitting the forms, we received a cheque for the full amount of the claim within three weeks of mailing the claim documentation. Minus the snail mail, my guess is that claim was satisfied within 10 working days.

Great service.


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## mattw

West Jet MC - just received this year. 1.5%, with the free annual companion voucher it should more then make up for the $99 annual fee.
AMEX Cobalt - 5% Food, 2% Travel/Gas, 1% Elsewhere. $10 monthly fee. But have racked up $1,000 in rewards in less than a year. Often have monthly deals that cover monthly fee. IE: spend $25 at Esso, receive $10 statement credit for July.
President's Choice MC WE - 3% at Loblaw's brands, 1% elsewhere. 

Debating switching PC to Triangle WE. Don't get scared by an annual fee, calculate the potential ROI to find the best card.

https://www.ratehub.ca/credit-cards/rewards


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## SW20 MR2

My wife and I each just got the Westjet WE card. If you go to places where Westjet flies, you could spend zero on the card and still make it worth it due to the companion ticket. There are no blackout restrictions on it, so if you vacation during peak seasons, the price of the companion ticket is still the same.


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## james4beach

I'm using PC World Elite (which earns 3% value at Loblaws/Superstore, and 4.5% at Shoppers Drug Mart). I just love the huge points from Superstore.

There are some old reviews out there mentioning this PC card is eligible for LoungeKey access to airport lounges, after you register the card. Lounge access will apparently cost 27 USD per visit. Is anyone doing this with their PC World Elite? I don't see it mentioned at the PC web site, so I doubt it's a feature.

Are there any no annual fee cards which _do_ have some kind of airport lounge access, even if it means paying per use?


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## Beaver101

^ Yes, BMO's MC World Elite card offers 4 free lounge accesses annually. The Welcome offer: Get 35,000 points and the $150 annual fee waived in the first year (and I think also in latter years if you meet some account threshold requirements). Other pointers stuff: Get 3 BMO Rewards points for every $1 spent on eligible travel, dining and entertainment purchases. Get 2 points for every $1 spent everywhere else.

There's is also a sister card BMO AirMiles World Elite card which gives you 2 lounge accesses annually instead ... $120 fee annually but can be waived if banking requirements are met. 

Full details on both cards are here: https://www.bmo.com/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-rewards-world-elite-mastercard/


Access to the lounges (food, wi-fi, showering) is very convenient for the frequent traveller or not-so-frequent traveller (I've tried it).


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## james4beach

Thanks Beaver. Those sound appealing and I will investigate those, but you're also paying $120 or $150 a year for a few lounge visits. Not a bad deal but there is a fixed cost even if you didn't use any lounges.

I'm going to post to an existing thread on this card to ask more about lounges...
https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/125938-BMO-World-Elite-Mastercard/page2


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## Beaver101

^ The $120/$150 fee is rebated if you have their unlimited or premium chequing accounts for which I had already (for years). And the monthly bank fee of $30 is waived if you have a minimum of $6K balance (which should be easy-peasy for a working professional like you.) So no direct cost to me (yet) although I'm sure nothing is free in this world.

Here're the details .... https://www.bmo.com/main/personal/bank-accounts/chequing-accounts/

I now see they have limited time offer of $300 + 2.85% savings rate for opening the premium account. Mind you the BMO World Elite MC has additional features such as travel and medical insurance + warranty protection (likely standard as with other 'World Elite MC'). I'm not aware of any other cc that has lounge access other than the World Elite line of MCs. Perhaps someone else does.


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## Karlhungus

The other benefit of the PC world elite that i find often gets overlooked over is the Super buck. Well, thats what it used be called. If you fill up for gas not only do you get your regular points, but also an extra 7 cents per litre worth of points. 

My only other card is Rogers world elite. No annual fee and 1.75% cash back on everything. Tough to beat that.


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## Beaver101

^ J4B is looking for additional feature "lounge" access. Does Rogers World Elite offer that? I don't dispute the 1.75% without annual fee is attractive.


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## james4beach

I saw this promotion today while at Shoppers Drug Mart. If you apply for a PC Mastercard by Friday August 9, they'll give you $100 in PC points (this is basically $100 for free). There's a link to the promotion at the top of the page.

https://www1.shoppersdrugmart.ca/en/pcoptimum/pcfinancial

Since it's actually free money for a no-fee card, I'd go as far as to say you should apply for one of these even if you don't intend to use the PC MC.

Does anyone know what might happen if someone already holds a PC World Elite card and attempts this?


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## hfp75

RBC Avion ...... for travel, done


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## james4beach

I understand there are better cards, but I'm talking about $100 of free money sitting there.


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## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ^ J4B is looking for additional feature "lounge" access. Does Rogers World Elite offer that? I don't dispute the 1.75% without annual fee is attractive.


I just discovered that the PC World Elite card includes LoungeKey eligibility (even though the phone reps don't know it). If you have the card, you can use your card number to create an account here: https://airport.mastercard.com

Certain credit cards participate in this MasterCard/LoungeKey system. There is no cost for the membership with a supported card, but most of those cards seem to have $120 annual fees. (The PC card has no annual fee). Each lounge visit will cost 27 USD and I intend to try this out in upcoming trips. I guess the question is whether lounge access is worth 27 USD a pop.

It's strange that PC doesn't advertise this, whereas the MasterCard web site does show the relationship (screen shot below)


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> I just discovered that the PC World Elite card includes LoungeKey eligibility (even though the phone reps don't know it). If you have the card, you can use your card number to create an account here: https://airport.mastercard.com
> 
> Certain credit cards participate in this MasterCard/LoungeKey system. There is no cost for the membership with a supported card, but most of those cards seem to have $120 annual fees. (The PC card has no annual fee). Each lounge visit will cost 27 USD and I intend to try this out in upcoming trips. I guess the question is whether lounge access is worth 27 USD a pop.
> 
> It's strange that PC doesn't advertise this, whereas the MasterCard web site does show the relationship (screen shot below)
> 
> View attachment 19658


Whether Lounge access is worth $27 of course depends on the individual and how important $27 is to them financially. We use it at Toronto airport for example even if we only have an hour or so to wait for a flight. Since YYZ has gone to those ridiculous seating areas with tablets on all the tables in Terminal 3 International Departures, it is very difficult to find an area where you can just sit and read a book while you wait for example.


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## Longtimeago

hfp75 said:


> RBC Avion ...... for travel, done


Nonsense. What will best suit a given individual depends on various factors and there is no 'one size fits all' answer which is what you are saying. The value of any rewards points on any card is hard to calculate when it comes to air travel rewards but that being said, the RBC AVion cards have an average value of 1.14 cents per point. So for every $1 spent on the card you get 1.14 cents of value back ONLY if you fly. 

Now compare that to say the PC Mastercard Elite being mentioned above and see what you find. The PC Elite card will get you 3 cents for every dollar spent in a PC store, 4 cents per litre off gas bought at a PC Superstore sited gas station, 3 cents a litre off gas bought at any Esso gas station, 4 cents off purchases at Shoppers Drug Mart, 1 cent of every dollar spent anywhere else. It is quite easy to see how that could easily net you more than 1.14 cents per dollar spent on average if you use that card as your everyday card for all card spending. But more importantly, that is equal to CASH back for any purchase of any kind you choose to make. A far more flexible reward than one that offers air travel reward only.

That's just a simple, basic example of why your blanket statement is wrong.

https://www.ratehub.ca/blog/how-the-rbc-avion-program-works/


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## james4beach

I'm going to try this out with my PC World Elite card. I already use it for all the Loblaws/Superstore purchases due to the amazing points.

I activated the LoungeKey access and will try it out in Calgary, Vancouver, etc. I have a 3 hour layover coming up so that will be a good time to try it out.

I also recently discovered that this PC card includes travel medical insurance, under age 65, for trips under 10 days. Has anyone ever made use of this? I read through the insurance certificate, and the free one through PC looks identical to TD's travel insurance (same kinds of exclusions, limitations).


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## Beaver101

> I also recently discovered that this PC card includes travel medical insurance, under age 65, for trips under 10 days. Has anyone ever made use of this? ...


 ... no, god forbid.


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## Jericho

Really been enjoying my Tangerine MC... 4% promo on selected categories, 2% on others and 0.5% on non selected categories is a win for me. I also have the RBC Westjet card and am happy to pay the 119$ fee for the 99$ voucher and free checked baggage per ticket.


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> I'm going to try this out with my PC World Elite card. I already use it for all the Loblaws/Superstore purchases due to the amazing points.
> 
> I activated the LoungeKey access and will try it out in Calgary, Vancouver, etc. I have a 3 hour layover coming up so that will be a good time to try it out.
> 
> I also recently discovered that this PC card includes travel medical insurance, under age 65, for trips under 10 days. Has anyone ever made use of this? I read through the insurance certificate, and the free one through PC looks identical to TD's travel insurance (same kinds of exclusions, limitations).


You missed rental car insurance which can provide significant savings. There are also various other 'perks' that may be of value to a given individual. For example, they offer full 3% in points for bookings made through PC Travel. I also got the Shoppers Drug Mart points wrong, you get 4.5% there not 4% as I previously wrote. You also get a concierge service to make reservations for you etc. and free grocery delivery from PC. 
https://www.moneywehave.com/pc-financial-world-elite-mastercard-review/

Also bear in mind this is a FREE card in that it has no annual fee. Compared to the Avion card above, that alone is a $120 savings per year and it is a better card in every respect as far as I am concerned.

Having said all that however, it is NOT the best card for someone who travels internationally and who wants to avoid foreign currency exchange costs. For someone who takes a 2 week vacation once a year to somewhere, that is probably not a real big deal but for someone who travels internationally, frequently or for longer periods of time and exchanges larger (at least high 4 figures) amounts per year, then the 3% you will pay on exchange using the PC Elite card will become a big negative and some other card like a Home Trust card will be better for that use.

There is no 'one size fits all' card as I have said. It all depends on the individual and how they use their card given their lifestyle.


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## Longtimeago

Jericho said:


> Really been enjoying my Tangerine MC... 4% promo on selected categories, 2% on others and 0.5% on non selected categories is a win for me. I also have the RBC Westjet card and am happy to pay the 119$ fee for the 99$ voucher and free checked baggage per ticket.


A good example of what appears to be a card that suits your needs Jericho. I'm referring to the Westjet card, not the Tangerine card. If you fly Westjet frequently on business trips it makes sense obviously. But would make no sense at all for someone who always flies Air Canada. It's when people try to say their card is the best for everyone as hfp75 did that annoys me.


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## james4beach

Beaver101 said:


> ... no, god forbid.


Curious what you mean. Do you think the travel medical insurance on the PC card is probably not very good?

Would I be better off buying some standard insurance from say RBC or TD instead? I was debating with myself whether the travel medical on the World Elite card is solid.


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## Mukhang pera

james4beach said:


> Curious what you mean. Do you think the travel medical insurance on the PC card is probably not very good?
> 
> Would I be better off buying some standard insurance from say RBC or TD instead? I was debating with myself whether the travel medical on the World Elite card is solid.


I suspect Beaver meant that she has not found it necessary to need medical care while travelling, and praise be for that.


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## Mukhang pera

james4beach said:


> I just discovered that the PC World Elite card includes LoungeKey eligibility (even though the phone reps don't know it). If you have the card, you can use your card number to create an account here: https://airport.mastercard.com
> 
> Certain credit cards participate in this MasterCard/LoungeKey system. There is no cost for the membership with a supported card, but most of those cards seem to have $120 annual fees. (The PC card has no annual fee). Each lounge visit will cost 27 USD and I intend to try this out in upcoming trips. I guess the question is whether lounge access is worth 27 USD a pop.
> 
> It's strange that PC doesn't advertise this, whereas the MasterCard web site does show the relationship (screen shot below)
> 
> View attachment 19658


So the card LoungeKey gets you in the door, provided you pay USD27, is that correct? Might not be worth it (to some os us) to sit in a comfy chair for an hour.


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## m3s

Besides the comfy chair most lounges have bottomless drinks including alcohol, meals, showers etc. Well worth $27USD if you would have otherwise gone to an airport restaurant. Depending on the time though some of them have become more crowded than the airport itself, probably with all these cards offering lounge access etc


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## Beaver101

Mukhang pera said:


> I suspect Beaver meant that she has not found it necessary to need medical care while travelling, and praise be for that.


 ...+1 with slight addition "to need to* use* medical care while travelling, and praise be for that." so your idea is correct. 

Also, I wouldn't get the card solely because of the travel medical insurance, especially for periodic and short travel during your sabbatical. Besides, I think all the cc "travel medicals" are inferior (think of it logically if not economically) but then don't quote me because I haven't analyzed or compared the coverage(s).

If you're snowbirding, then that's a different story - I would then spend more efforts & time getting a seperate "solid" travel medical policy. There is a whole world of products out there for this purpose.


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## agent99

I need to look for a different card - can't recall the last time I was in an airport!


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## Mukhang pera

m3s said:


> Besides the comfy chair most lounges have bottomless drinks including alcohol, meals, showers etc. Well worth $27USD if you would have otherwise gone to an airport restaurant. Depending on the time though some of them have become more crowded than the airport itself, probably with all these cards offering lounge access etc


Yes, I seem to recall those features of the lounges. Some time back I used to fly a lot to several SE Asian countries. My usual airlines were JAL, Asiana, Korean and Cathay Pacific. Eventually I flew mostly Cathay, because, if you accumulated enough miles, they granted you a "Marco Polo Club" membership which included lounge access. Those lounges offered a fair number of amenities and were worthwhile visiting if you had a layover of any duration.

I have not done enough flying in recent years to earn lounge privileges with any airline. I still take some flights every year, but seem to end up on a different airline each time and I now don't even try to keep track of or collect miles.


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## Mukhang pera

Beaver101 said:


> ...+1 with slight addition "to need to* use* medical care while travelling, and praise be for that." so your idea is correct.


I stand corrected. I should have said "use" in that sentence. "Necessary to need" sounds like something a person with no English facility might say. I should be marched out to the woodshed for such clumsy wording.


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> Curious what you mean. Do you think the travel medical insurance on the PC card is probably not very good?
> 
> Would I be better off buying some standard insurance from say RBC or TD instead? I was debating with myself whether the travel medical on the World Elite card is solid.


When credit cards offer 'perks' like travel medical or rental car coverage, they are always actually being provided by a third party insurer. Often, the same large insurers with the same policy terms as people buy directly from an insurance company anyway.

But with insurance it is ALWAYS in the terms and conditions. In other words, to compare any insurance product against any other, you MUST read the entire policy from start to finish. It is also important to consider that more insurance is only a good thing if you need MORE. ie. a $2 mil coverage for something is not better than a $1 mil coverage if $1 mil is enough for your needs. 

If you want to know who the actual insurer is or what the actual policy covers then read ALL of this james4beach and then compare to others if you wish.
https://www.pcfinancial.ca/docs/default-source/legal-stuff/pcf_worldelite_coi_en.pdf

You will find for example that the maximum benefit is limited to $1,000,000 which is a common limit. Others however might have a higher limit but that is where as I said, you have to determine what limit you need. For most people in most travel situations, $1 mil is usually enough.

Scroll down to 'Procedures' for when you need to claim and note the part about, *"the The Administrator will make every effort to pay or authorize payment of eligible expenses to Hospitals, Doctors, and other medical providers directly. If direct payment or payment authorization is not possible, an Insured Person may be required to make payments. In that event, the Insured Person will be reimbursed for eligible expenses on submission of a valid claim."*

That is a point many people don't check on a travel policy, whether the insurer will pay directly or whether you have to pay out of your own pocket and then claim after you return. Believe it or not, some policies ONLY pay AFTER you return and make a claim. There are plenty of travellers who have only discovered that after having to find a way to pay a hospital bill in some other country. It's a real good example of why you have to READ the policy in its entirety.


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## james4beach

Thanks, and yes, I did read that entire document. I also read the entire document for a typical plan people purchase (TD's travel insurance) and they had very similar wording.

In both cases, the administrator of the plan must be notified, and typically is looped into the ongoing care. They will review and approve certain medical procedures, such as, does this guy really need an X-Ray? CAT scan? Surgery? If the administrator has not been consulted and an invasive procedure is done, the claim may be denied. This is the same both for the PC plan and others, as far as I can tell.

I don't think you will be able to find a plan that guarantees that payments will always be made up front. I think they all say that the administrator will attempt to pay expenses directly, but may not always be able to do this.

But thanks for reminding me. I'll go read the TD and RBC travel policy language again to see if they say something different about direct payment vs reimbursement.


----------



## james4beach

For anyone who is curious about this, I also read through the RBC Travel Health Protector insurance certificate for under age 60. I am not a lawyer, but here's my comparison of RBC vs the PC travel health that comes with World Elite. Only focusing on parts I care about.

*Start of medical emergency*: with both policies, you must contact the administrator before seeking treatment. Failure to call may result in reduced benefits and more out of pocket payments. Same with both.

*Direct billing*: the RBC administrator will request that the service provider, provided it's one of their recognized providers, directly bills insurance. The PC administrator also will make "every effort to pay... directly". So it appears to be that both policies are about equivalent in their intention to directly pay for expenses, provided you go to the recognized (Network) provider. Same.

*Getting procedures approved:* Both administrators need to be contacted before proceeding withany surgery, heart procedure, or even diagnostic testing. So it's the same under both. You can't just have a whole bunch of tests done -- they must be approved first, otherwise they won't be covered.

*Alcohol*: the RBC plan has a general exclusion of any medical condition related, in any way, to use of alcohol during your trip. This is a pretty blanket exclusion so I would be really, really careful about consuming any alcohol. (This would be an issue in places like Cuba, all inclusives, etc). The PC policy on the other hand more specifically says "injury sustained while under the influence of... alcohol". I view the *PC policy as superior* to the RBC one here, because I think RBC really could wave their hands of an entire claim if there was any alcohol use, period.

Sport exclusions: RBC will not cover for injuries from rock climbing, mountain climbing, speed sports. PC extends the exclusions more vaguely to include "dangerous sports" and scuba. The *RBC policy is superior* as it's more specific, not casting a wide blanket. By the way, the TD insurance is similarly vague and says "any non-standard sport or activity involving a high level of risk".

~ conclusions ~

There are some subtle differences, but payment setups and reimbursements seem to be about the same. You always have to contact the plan before proceeding with any medical treatment. The main policy differences I spotted were highlighted in bold above. If you're going to be drinking at all, you might want to avoid the RBC plan. On the other hand if you're doing any sport that might vaguely be described as "dangerous", the RBC plan is better.

I do some recreational outdoor activities which I think are normal sports, but an insurer could create problems for me. I'd hate to come home and then fight the insurer regarding the definition of what's a "dangerous sport". For example, is going hiking in the woods dangerous?


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> Thanks, and yes, I did read that entire document. I also read the entire document for a typical plan people purchase (TD's travel insurance) and they had very similar wording.
> 
> In both cases, the administrator of the plan must be notified, and typically is looped into the ongoing care. They will review and approve certain medical procedures, such as, does this guy really need an X-Ray? CAT scan? Surgery? If the administrator has not been consulted and an invasive procedure is done, the claim may be denied. This is the same both for the PC plan and others, as far as I can tell.
> 
> I don't think you will be able to find a plan that guarantees that payments will always be made up front. I think they all say that the administrator will attempt to pay expenses directly, but may not always be able to do this.
> 
> But thanks for reminding me. I'll go read the TD and RBC travel policy language again to see if they say something different about direct payment vs reimbursement.


Most policies will require you to phone their 1-800 number immediately and there are reasons for that as well as exceptions. For example, in the USA ambulances are often private companies. When someone has say a fender bender in Orlando, Florida, not only do tow trucks show up asking if you want them to tow the vehicle, ambulances can and do show up (sometimes more than one from competing companies just like tow trucks) asking if you need transport to the hospital. 

If you are ABLE to walk and talk, your insurer hopes you will phone them first before agreeing to anything in terms of a tow or an ambulance. If you are incapacitated or it is just not practical for other reasons, then this requirement to call first is waived. See what I am saying? It isn't just 'does this guy need an X-Ray, etc.' This issue with unnecessary ambulance bills is very common in the USA and insurance companies wanting to avoid paying for them where they are not needed. That is not unreasonable on their part given the prevalence of this kind of ambulance practices in the USA. The same is true of medical care that can be 'inflated' in some countries and that the insurer wants to avoid paying for. They aren't trying to avoid paying for your care, they are trying to avoid truly unnecessary bills. 

You are correct re 'will try' to pay bills up front.  In some cases it just isn't possible because say a hospital in country X actually demands payment from the patient before they do anything. There was a bus that crashed some years ago in an African country that I remember reading about. It was a busload of tourists and quite a few were injured. When they were taken to a hospital, the hospital would not even admit them until they had provided a credit card! But in most first world countries, the insurer can arrange payment directly. You want a policy that says they will try to do this.


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> For anyone who is curious about this, I also read through the RBC Travel Health Protector insurance certificate for under age 60. I am not a lawyer, but here's my comparison of RBC vs the PC travel health that comes with World Elite. Only focusing on parts I care about.
> 
> *Start of medical emergency*: with both policies, you must contact the administrator before seeking treatment. Failure to call may result in reduced benefits and more out of pocket payments. Same with both.
> 
> *Direct billing*: the RBC administrator will request that the service provider, provided it's one of their recognized providers, directly bills insurance. The PC administrator also will make "every effort to pay... directly". So it appears to be that both policies are about equivalent in their intention to directly pay for expenses, provided you go to the recognized (Network) provider. Same.
> 
> *Getting procedures approved:* Both administrators need to be contacted before proceeding withany surgery, heart procedure, or even diagnostic testing. So it's the same under both. You can't just have a whole bunch of tests done -- they must be approved first, otherwise they won't be covered.
> 
> *Alcohol*: the RBC plan has a general exclusion of any medical condition related, in any way, to use of alcohol during your trip. This is a pretty blanket exclusion so I would be really, really careful about consuming any alcohol. (This would be an issue in places like Cuba, all inclusives, etc). The PC policy on the other hand more specifically says "injury sustained while under the influence of... alcohol". I view the *PC policy as superior* to the RBC one here, because I think RBC really could wave their hands of an entire claim if there was any alcohol use, period.
> 
> Sport exclusions: RBC will not cover for injuries from rock climbing, mountain climbing, speed sports. PC extends the exclusions more vaguely to include "dangerous sports" and scuba. The *RBC policy is superior* as it's more specific, not casting a wide blanket. By the way, the TD insurance is similarly vague and says "any non-standard sport or activity involving a high level of risk".
> 
> ~ conclusions ~
> 
> There are some subtle differences, but payment setups and reimbursements seem to be about the same. You always have to contact the plan before proceeding with any medical treatment. The main policy differences I spotted were highlighted in bold above. If you're going to be drinking at all, you might want to avoid the RBC plan. On the other hand if you're doing any sport that might vaguely be described as "dangerous", the RBC plan is better.
> 
> I do some recreational outdoor activities which I think are normal sports, but an insurer could create problems for me. I'd hate to come home and then fight the insurer regarding the definition of what's a "dangerous sport". For example, is going hiking in the woods dangerous?


Not quite right in all respects james4beach.

Contact before seeking treatment ALWAYS means IF you are able to do so. If they have to use the 'jaws of life' to pry you out of a car and rush you to a hospital in serious condition, you do NOT have to contact them before seeking treatment. In other words, it is a common sense decision as to when they will insist on being contacted before treatment.

Recognized network providers is a list of 'approved' providers that insurers will have for some places. Again, in conjunction with the requirement to contact the insurer before seeking treatment, this requirement to use their approved provider is applicable where POSSIBLE.

Getting procedures approved, again, the same applies, it presumes you are physically capable and can ask for approval before a procedure is done. If you have a heart attack, you don't need to call and ask, 'hey, will you approve an EMT using a defibrilator on me.'

Alcohol I have covered on another thread but to repeat the basic point, it is that there must be a link between the alcohol and the claim. It does not EVER exclude you from consuming alcohol at all. You're reading a bit too much into that. Read the words of the RBC policy again as per your quote, _"medical condition related, in any way, to use of alcohol"_ The key word is 'related'. There must be a cause and affect connection.

The PC one as you quote it is in fact not as good. Not if that IS all it says but I am sure there is also some wording in their policy that you have left out that also refers to 'cause and affect' being linked. Given only the wording you have quoted for the PC policy it would seem to be saying that if you were sitting in the back of a taxi on your way back to your hotel after having consumed some alcohol and that taxi was involved in an accident with you being injured, you would not be covered since you sustained an injury while under the influence of alcohol!

Sport exclusions are always a tricky one. The best thing to do is always ask specifically if any activity you plan on participating in is covered or not. For example, many years ago I took up soaring (gliders or sailplanes as they are also called). I found out that my life insurance would not cover me for that and had to choose whether to buy specific insurance to cover for that in the event of dying while doing it. As a young guy with a family to support on one income, I could not afford the high cost of that kind of specific insurance and had to give up the activity. It isn't hard to understand why insurers do not want to insure high risk activities in a standard travel policy. Even things as common as skiiing and snowboarding are excluded from some policies. Deciding on the spur of the moment as many do to try say bungee jumping is pretty much guaranteed to be excluded.

What I consider important to realize about coverage of activities is that it MAY be excluded and you MUST check if you plan on participating in any kind of sport or activity while travelling that MIGHT be excluded. So again, if the policy does not specifically allow or refuse coverage of something you plan on doing ASK and find out if it is covered or not. Nor would I take as read a policy that specifies some activities as excluded but does not mention a specific activity that you plan to participate in. So while the RBC policy specifically states it will not cover rock or mountain climbing, I would not ASSUME it would cover me for bungee jumping or hang gliding. Phone and ask.

Hiking is not likely to be excluded by any insurer but that all depends on how you define hiking. On a trail in the White Mountains of New Hampshire? You're probably covered but read this link and see what World Nomads defines as being covered or not. https://helpdesk.worldnomads.com/cu...by-travel-insurance-if-im-hiking-or-trekking-

Note the height limit and the 'exploratory expeditions and new routes'. Also the search and rescue exclusion. They are pretty specific indeed. So if you are hiking 'off-trail with map and compass', that would probably fall under 'exploratory expeditions and new routes' that are NOT covered. I have done a great deal of backpacking in wilderness off-trail and they wouldn't cover it. You're on your own and need to know that.

So to answer your question of 'is going hiking in the woods dangerous?' That depends. On a trail in a national park, probably not. Off trail in the Grand Canyon, it definitely is.


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## james4beach

And I suppose the insurer never waits until after the fact (seeing how big a claim is) before deciding, in hindsight, that the sport was in fact "dangerous"?

Something tells me that what the phone rep tells me verbally is non-binding, whereas the underwriters and lawyers will decide after a claim whether my activity was, in fact, too dangerous for their taste.


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> And I suppose the insurer never waits until after the fact (seeing how big a claim is) before deciding, in hindsight, that the sport was in fact "dangerous"?
> 
> Something tells me that what the phone rep tells me verbally is non-binding, whereas the underwriters and lawyers will decide after a claim whether my activity was, in fact, too dangerous for their taste.


That could be the case james4beach. You can ask for their response in writing of course and if they are unwilling to give you that, you can look elsewhere. There are no guarantees in life after all and as the saying goes, 'you pays your money and you takes your chances.'

A bit more re hiking. I have been a hiker and wilderness backpacker for decades. I have hiked in the Swiss Alps many times over the years and as recently as June of last year. I know that when I hike there even though it is on marked trails and with 'little' real risk as I perceive it, the possibility always exists of twisting an ankle or worse and not being able to hike out. That could happen anywhere really couldn't it.

I also know that my travel medical insurance will not cover me if I have to be rescued. So whenever I go hiking in Switzerland, I contribute to REGA, a Swiss organization that in fact does most of the mountain rescue helicopter flights. Each time I go there it costs me (today's figures) $80 to cover both myself and my wife through REGA. But I also know that my travel medical insurance will cover my medical costs if I need a doctor or hospital's attention. 

I have also backpacked off-trail in the Grand Canyon several times. I know that if a rescue is needed, the cost of the rescue is paid by the American taxpayer. However, if I was hiking off-trail with map and compass, I know my travel medical insurance will not pay for any doctor or hospital bills that result from my doing so. So my trip down to the Canyon is covered, my 2 day 'reward to self' in Vegas before returning home is covered but I have to accept that while off-trail in the Canyon, I am on my own for medical coverage.

My point is that I am an informed insurance buyer james4beach and as such I accept responsibility for what I do and what any insurance I buy will cover or not. I don't really see why people always want to be so down on insurance companies. They provide a product and we are all free to buy it or not. Bear in mind that around an average of 95% of all travel insurance claims are paid with no major issues. It is only the approximate 5% where claims are denied that we hear about in the media etc. or that people want to hold up as examples of why travel insurance is 'crap' etc. https://blog.ingleinternational.com/just-how-many-travel-insurance-claims-are-denied/

To me the bottom line is simple. Getting travel medical insurance is the sensible thing to do. I don't like spending that money any more than anyone else does but I do it because for 99.9% of the time it covers me for 'normal' travel and my claim will be paid if I am unfortunate enough to have to make a claim. So I see no sense to anyone complaining about travel medical insurance and what it will or will not cover and whether their claim will be denied or not. Yes, the insurer will look to see if they can deny a claim, they have the right to do that after all. But I don't worry about that at all as I don't intend to make any claim that is not covered and they do not deny claims on a whim.


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## Jericho

Longtimeago said:


> A good example of what appears to be a card that suits your needs Jericho. I'm referring to the Westjet card, not the Tangerine card. If you fly Westjet frequently on business trips it makes sense obviously. But would make no sense at all for someone who always flies Air Canada. It's when people try to say their card is the best for everyone as hfp75 did that annoys me.


I use the RBC Westjet card as well. I get more money back on my Tangerine card, but having the RBC Westjet card and only paying the yearly fee is with the 99$ companion voucher and free bags alone (IMHO). I fly from Alberta to Newfoundland, often with another adult or little ones, so it certainly suits me well. But I spend far more on my Tangerine categories and would prefer the cash back every month for me to reinvest as I see fit - not locked into WJ dollars.


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## james4beach

Here are some travel benefits notes on the *PC World Elite Mastercard* from my recent experience. This is a no fee card.

Cardholders under age 65 automatically get travel medical insurance for trips up to 10 days. This seems pretty nice. After looking into the insurance, it seems equivalent to standard policies that people usually pay for. This could be a significant savings for me, saving me a few hundred $ for several trips in a year.

The card can also be registered with Mastercard Airport Experiences aka LoungeKey. They will swipe the PC credit card at the airport lounge (you might have to tell them it's _LoungeKey_) and there will be a 27 USD charge per visit. I tried this on my recent trip and spent several hours in the Calgary lounge... very pleasant. Had dinner, drinks, and got some work done. I would say it was worth 27 USD = $36 for the lounge access.

The quality of lounges probably varies across Canada. I don't often have long layovers so I won't need this too often, but it's a nice benefit.


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> Here are some travel benefits notes on the *PC World Elite Mastercard* from my recent experience. This is a no fee card.
> 
> Cardholders under age 65 automatically get travel medical insurance for trips up to 10 days. This seems pretty nice. After looking into the insurance, it seems equivalent to standard policies that people usually pay for. This could be a significant savings for me, saving me a few hundred $ for several trips in a year.
> 
> The card can also be registered with Mastercard Airport Experiences aka LoungeKey. They will swipe the PC credit card at the airport lounge (you might have to tell them it's _LoungeKey_) and there will be a 27 USD charge per visit. I tried this on my recent trip and spent several hours in the Calgary lounge... very pleasant. Had dinner, drinks, and got some work done. I would say it was worth 27 USD = $36 for the lounge access.
> 
> The quality of lounges probably varies across Canada. I don't often have long layovers so I won't need this too often, but it's a nice benefit.


Regarding the 10 day coverage, I agree that is a good perk for many people although not all and it requires some care in how it is applied. A benefit of the Shoppers Drug Mart card was that it provided 3 days coverage automatically and could be extended. I don't know if that still applies since their joining with President's Choice. 

Where the 3 day or 10 day coverage was good for many people was on a short shopping trip across the border to the USA which many Canadians like to do. Often, those that do that kind of thing do not think about medical cover when they are just going to cross the border for the 48 hour requirement for example. Their car insurance will be fine but they can and have got a surprise if they needed medical care and then discovered, oops, they never thought to get medical cover for such a short trip just to go shopping. 

Where caution is required is if someone is going to travel for more than the covered period. Some people have got into trouble when they used this kind of 'free' cover to start a trip and then relied on a second coverage for the balance of their trip. Just as on another thread we see the case of someone who somehow managed to confuse 'province of departure' with 'province of residence', extending coverage for a longer period with a second provider can introduce the possibility of confusing, 'date of departure' with 'date of start of coverage'.

If you EXTEND the coverage with the same provider there is no issue but if you choose to use a different insurer for the additional time, there is a definite possibility of running into a problem if you are not careful to read and understand the second policy as it applies to this. For example, a policy may require you to be covered for the ENTIRE time from when you leave your home province until your return there. Which means it cannot be used as an 'extension' at all. What is certain is that you need to be sure you answer all the questions AS ASKED. My advice would be to eliminate any possible conflicts that might arise by using two different insurers. If you are going to try to take advantage of the 10 days 'free' coverage, then extend that coverage for any additional time you need, not look at other insurers for that additional time at all.

The lounge access is again a nice perk for some people.


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## james4beach

Thanks for those notes, that's very interesting about the longer coverage, if exceeding the 10 days.

When I talked to the insurer they said to make sure there are clear records of when you depart. They said it's easy to verify air travel, but if going by car (where there is not a great paper trail) then it can be useful to use the credit card to purchase something on both sides of the border, establishing a paper trail.

I'm thinking that if my trip is under 10 days, I'll just use the PC card's policy. However if I believe the trip will be longer, it seems safer to just purchase a separate policy instead of taking chances with extensions -- wouldn't that be more straightforward?


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## Longtimeago

james4beach said:


> Thanks for those notes, that's very interesting about the longer coverage, if exceeding the 10 days.
> 
> When I talked to the insurer they said to make sure there are clear records of when you depart. They said it's easy to verify air travel, but if going by car (where there is not a great paper trail) then it can be useful to use the credit card to purchase something on both sides of the border, establishing a paper trail.
> 
> I'm thinking that if my trip is under 10 days, I'll just use the PC card's policy. However if I believe the trip will be longer, it seems safer to just purchase a separate policy instead of taking chances with extensions -- wouldn't that be more straightforward?


Why not simply extend the PC coverage? I would suspect they offer that option to you. An alternative insurer would have to offer you a pretty low price to overcome that first 10 days free with PC. There is no 'chances' being taken with a straightforward extension of a policy. If you were leaving for say a month, you just phone PC beforehand and arrange to have the 10 day policy extended to a 30 day policy. You pay for the 20 days extension that's all. It's still the same policy.

If they do not offer an extension then yes I would look at one insurer to cover the entire period. I do know that the free 3 day coverage Shopper's used to provide was extendable.

Also, if looking at two insurers, as always be sure to compare coverage, not just price. For example, you mention a driving holiday. One policy may cover returning your car to your home if you ended up having to be flown home after a major medical problem, while another may not cover that and you will have to arrange to get your car back home yourself. That could get expensive obviously. Or one may cover it for $1000 while another covers it for $2000. Not all policies are created equal.


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## james4beach

I got an email today saying that the LoungeKey fee to access a lounge (with the PC world elite) is increasing from 27 USD to 32 USD. Ouch!

Just when I had decided that the old price was worth it. I think that new price applies to all Canadian 'world elite' mastercards which use LoungeKey.


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## kelaa

At 32 USD, I believe it's still a discount to the typical posted door prices (40 USD at Las Vegas' "The Club", for instance). Unless you really pig out, I would guess most won't get their full value in terms of food or drinks. But if you assign some value to the more comfortable seating, slightly better security (feel a little bit better about leaving your luggage to go to the washroom, for instance), and a maybe a shower, it can be fair value. And I would say for some people, having things pre-paid allows them to be more relaxed and not worry about the final bill. For instance, my wife would never spend 30 dollars on drinks a la carte at an airport restaurant. But if we paid for an airport lounge fee, she'll be happy to try a few beers and spirits from around the world, be more relaxed, and have a better traveling experience.


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## latebuyer

As a solo traveller, i am reading the wording surrounding when to phone the administrator very carefully. I am actually not sure longtimeago is correct and if their intent is someone would call for you if you are incapacitated. I look for the wording you will call the administrator as soon as you reasonably can which is what td and national bank says. I wouldn't trust it without this wording. I'm not happy with td but it looks like their wording is better than others. I think its better to have that in writing.


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## Longtimeago

I don't know what specific provider you are referring to latebuyer. For example, here is a direct quote from RBC on their website.

"Note: If a medical emergency prevents you from calling before receiving treatment, we ask that you (or someone else on your behalf) call us at the earliest opportunity."

You can see it here if you scroll a short way down the page: https://www.rbcinsurance.com/personal-insurance/claims-service.html?view=travel

Yet their policy does in fact read: "WHAT MUST YOU DO IN A MEDICAL EMERGENCY?
You must contact Assured Assistance Inc. before seeking emergency treatment. In addition, all
surgery and heart procedures, including heart catheterization, must be approved in advance
by the medical advisors of Assured Assistance Inc. When you contact Assured Assistance Inc.,
they will refer you or may transfer you, when medically appropriate, to one of the accredited
medical service providers within the network. Assured Assistance Inc. will also request for the
medical service provider within the network to bill the medical expenses covered under this
insurance directly to us instead of to you. Failure to call may result in reduced benefits."

You can find that here: http://www.rbcroyalbank.com/travelinsurance/pdf/RBC_THP_certificate_over60.pdf

Note the words, "you must" which seems pretty definitive indeed. But then also note the words, "Failure to call MAY result in reduced benefits." So in other words it is NOT an an absolute must, it is only a possibility that they would use that to deny a claim. Now think like a lawyer and why they word things the way they do. They do it to cover their ***. By saying , 'you must' they put the onus on you to call them IF at all possible. IF you do not and COULD have, they have a reason to deny a claim. They want if at all possible to steer you to one of their approved network of medical service providers. You can't fault them for wanting to do that. 

Consider the situation and use common sense. If you are taken out of a car accident unconscious and rushed by ambulance to a hospital, it is simply not possible for you to call them first. That happens all the time unfortunately. IF every time it happened an insurance company denied a claim because the person did not call, does common sense not tell you that everyone and their uncle would know that travel insurance only covers if you are conscious and make a phone call first? It would be a major news story indeed.

Read number 4 here: https://www.snowbirdadvisorinsuranc...d-having-your-travel-insurance-claim-rejected

Now again use common sense and consider a scenario like this: A couple are in Florida 'snowbirding'. One day they get up and over breakfast, one of them says s/he doesn't feel too well. The spouse immediately calls for an ambulance and they end up in a hospital having a series of tests done. Why could they not have made that ONE phone call to their insurance provider who would then have made all the arrangements necessary to deal with the 'emergency'? That is when the 'failure to call may result in reduced benefits' will be enforced. 

An insurer is prepared to pay legitimate claims and in fact 95% of all travel claims are paid in full without any serious hassle. But they also know they are dealing with PEOPLE and there are plenty of people who will do unreasonable things and expect their insurance to cover their unreasonable actions.


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## latebuyer

So you are basing what you say on one insurance policy? I've read at least 5 and i can tell you they vary a lot. Personally i prefer allianz global which specifies 24 hours to contact. Reasonably possible is very subjective and could be in the favour of the insurance company. I can't recall if i said as a solo traveller i don't necessarily think my first response is to call if i'm scared, sick and alone. Perhaps it would be but i'm not sure of this. 24 hours would give some wiggle room.


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## latebuyer

As i said in other thread i've decide to stick with TD for now. Thanks to everyone who replied to this interesting thread!


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## Longtimeago

latebuyer said:


> So you are basing what you say on one insurance policy? I've read at least 5 and i can tell you they vary a lot. Personally i prefer allianz global which specifies 24 hours to contact. Reasonably possible is very subjective and could be in the favour of the insurance company. I can't recall if i said as a solo traveller i don't necessarily think my first response is to call if i'm scared, sick and alone. Perhaps it would be but i'm not sure of this. 24 hours would give some wiggle room.


No, I am basing what I am saying on common practice by pretty much every travel insurance provider and using an EXAMPLE of one policy. Again, use common sense.

What do you mean by, "i don't necessarily think my first response is to call if i'm scared, sick and alone." What then would you do instead? Call an ambulance, go to a walk-in clinic, what?

If you are able to call them, you call and they deal with it. If you are NOT able to call, then you can't. You can't have it both ways. Either you are questioning what to do if you CAN'T call or you are questioning whether you have to call when you CAN call.


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## james4beach

Mukhang pera said:


> So the card LoungeKey gets you in the door, provided you pay USD27, is that correct? Might not be worth it (to some os us) to sit in a comfy chair for an hour.


I had used this Lounge Key access quite a few times before the pandemic, but it seems to have changed a lot.

Has anyone used it recently? Reminder... the World Elite Mastercards provide Lounge Key access. It used to be that this gave access to actual airport lounges across Canadian airports and back then I thought it was worth using.

However I recently asked at some of the domestic lounges that used to accept this and they said they no longer are part of the network. Using the airport.mastercard.com lounge finder, now I see that most of what they are calling "lounges" are standard airport restaurant/bars. It's really not the lounge experience at all, more like ordering a dinner.

There are a few actual lounges still shown. At YYC (Calgary) there's access to WestJet's Elevation Lounge. I've used that lounge before and it's pretty nice, food & drinks -- worth the 32 USD.

YYZ (Toronto) also has an Air France / KLM lounge available, but that's only Terminal 3. But the domestic terminal has basically nothing, just a few bars listed and I don't see the point of those... they aren't lounges.

YVR (Vancouver) has a real lounge in the international area, but nothing in domestic.


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## ian

We gave up our Aeroplan cards some time ago. We use a cash back travel card. Aeroplan charges, points and cash combined are excessive. We still have them but only use them on one short haul route where fares are excessive. Even after the so called program re-vamp.

Recently booked Faro, Portugal -Toronto one way for a May/June trip. Aeroplan wanted 60,000 points plus $94 each for basic economy. 120,000 points plus $188. for two people.

We booked with AIr Transat. Base fare was $300 each. We upgraded to exit row seats w/no bulkhead etc. Total cost for two was $860. Used our C1 World Elite MC points to cover the cost. We experienced the same differences when we booked 2 X YYC-YVR fares last year.

We are seeing similar numbers when shopping for Greece fares in Sept/Oct.


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## james4beach

ian said:


> Aeroplan charges, points and cash combined are excessive


I started using United MileagePlus before the pandemic as the program is more generous than Aeroplan. For example, points never expire and my pre-pandemic points are alive and well today.

Air Canada's booking system used to accept United MileagePlus (a partner program) but recently has been rejecting it. A bit frustrating and something I need to figure out how to solve, so that I can resume collecting MP.


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