# What party are you going to vote for?



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Curious for which party CMF members are going to vote on Sep 20 elections?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

11 for Cons, 0 for others?! CMF was alway pro Liberal forum, especially after James got the badge 🤔
sags is also voting Conservative?!
P.S. we have a good chance to defeat Trudeau dictatorship!


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> P.S. we have a good chance to defeat Trudeau dictatorship!


No, this forum is biased by the fact that people on this forum share a common interest (about money and wealth).


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> No, this forum is biased by the fact that people on this forum share a common interest (about money and wealth).


It always was like this.... and I;m on this forum from April 2011, but i've never seen such results


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

I don't know if things will change, but I live in one of the 3 biggest cities in Canada and we all vote for the same parties. Either Liberal or NDP. But since I'm in Quebec, there's also the Bloc québécois. I'm 33, I vote since I'm 18, I've voted for 4 different parties throughout my life and the Conservatives have never been one of them.

Even the word "conservative" is a word I can't stand in every context: politics, personality, behavior, ideology, philosophy, etc.

I live in Montreal, see how it went over the past 20 years.









Story Map Series


This story map was created with the Story Map Series application in ArcGIS Online.




www.arcgis.com


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> I don't know if things will change, but I live in one of the 3 biggest cities in Canada and we all vote for the same parties. Either Liberal or NPD. But since I'm in Quebec, there's also the Bloc québécois. I'm 33, I vote since I'm 18, the Conservatives have never been part of my choices.
> 
> I live in Montreal, see how it went over the past 20 years.
> 
> ...


I don't get your point.... so for last 15 years you vote Liberals/NDP , we came to Canada in 1999 and we always vote Conservatives. But some people (on this forum) are voting for different parties on different elections..


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Interesting that my MIL in Canada for 5 years, almost 2 years ago she applied for citizenship and ... still nothing! Curious if those Syrian pseudo-refugees who arrived same time got citizenship in "bulk"...
Liberals are aware that no Israeli would vote for them, but all pseudo-refugees are "Liberal"


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> I don't get your point.... so for last 15 years you vote Liberals/NDP , we came to Canada in 1999 and we always vote Conservatives. But some people (on this forum) are voting for different parties on different elections..


Prior to living in Montreal, I wasn't living in a big city and people outside big cities tend vote differently. My perception changed once I started living in a big city.

If I recall correctly, I've voted Bloc québécois once, then moved to Montreal, then voted either Liberal or NDP, and if I recall correctly I've even voted Green Party once when I wasn't happy with Liberal and NDP while Bloc québécois was almost dead. But from now on I'm pretty sure I'll vote either Liberal or NDP.

And our district currently has a very good MP which has easily won his district since 2011. He even survived the last election, being the only NDP in a see of Liberal & Bloc québécois.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Interesting that my MIL in Canada for 5 years, almost 2 years ago she applied for citizenship and ... still nothing! Curious if those Syrian pseudo-refugees who arrived same time got citizenship in "bulk"...
> Liberals are aware that no Israeli would vote for them, but all pseudo-refugees are "Liberal"


Does your MIL have income ?

A family we know just had their mother denied after a similar long wait for approval.

Immigration said she didn't have sufficient income to remain in Canada, so they gave her a date to leave.

She owned her home outright but had no income and the she didn't qualify for OAS or CPP............so back she goes to the UK.

She is 90 years old, so her whole family is moving back as well......and skipping out on $400,000 in student and credit card debt.

They are all going to live in Spain where the debt collectors can't get to them. I read that it happens a lot with student debt by foreigners.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

If I would be québécois, I’d vote only for BQ


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Does your MIL have income ?
> 
> A family we know just had their mother denied after a similar long wait for approval.
> 
> ...


I don’t know what you are talking about! My MIL is permanent resident and after 3 years she is eligible to apply and get citizenship. Income doesn’t matter at all! 
and yes , she is getting OAS from Israel that is bigger than my combined Canadian OAS and CPP all together


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> I don’t know what you are talking about! My MIL is permanent resident and after 3 years she is eligible to apply and get citizenship. Income doesn’t matter at all!
> and yes , she is getting OAS from Israel that is bigger than my combined Canadian OAS and CPP all together


I thought in another thread you said you were 55. If true, you're not eligible to collect any OAS/CPP.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

There has been a pandemic for most of the last two years, that might be what's slowing it down.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

An older person coming to Canada with no job prospects is going to have to prove sufficient income or job opportunities to support themselves.

Otherwise Canadians would be paying all their social welfare and medical costs.

Family members can certainly sponsor an immigrant.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Actually Gibor.........you might be right and the family may not be telling the whole story.

They might just be planning on skipping on all that debt.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> I thought in another thread you said you were 55. If true, you're not eligible to collect any OAS/CPP.


Yes, I’m ... i calculated my future OAS + CPP.
We are only counting on our 2M+ registered and non-reg accounts and my spouse DB pension


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> Yes, I’m ... i calculated my future OAS + CPP.
> We are only counting on our 2M+ registered and non-reg accounts and my spouse DB pension


You.re in good financial shape and I applaud you and ur wife for working to put it all in place.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Mm


sags said:


> Actually Gibor.........you might be right and the family may not be telling the whole story.
> 
> They might just be planning on skipping on all that debt.


If person gets Visa as independent immigrant or sponsored by family, this person gets PR and nobody cares about their income. And as per law , after 3 years this person is eligible to get Canadian citizenship.
There are some instances when sponsored immigrants are trying to get money from governemnt , but it doesn;t affect their eligibility for citizenship


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> There has been a pandemic for most of the last two years, that might be what's slowing it down.


No, the immigration system is massively overloaded. Then Trudeau brought over even more refugees, which take more resources than other immigrants and overloaded it more.

Remember that the CPC cleared out the backlog and made good relations with immigrants by trying to fix up the system. Liberals don't care if it works, they just care if they can get their headline grabbing numbers.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> 11 for Cons, 0 for others?! CMF was alway pro Liberal forum, especially after James got the badge 🤔
> sags is also voting Conservative?!


You expect that an hour's worth of responses will be how it stays?
Interesting but likely dubious thinking. 

Also interesting that "not going to vote" makes the list but "undecided" was left off.

Cheers


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Liberals are aware that no Israeli would vote for them, but all pseudo-refugees are "Liberal"


I'm curious what you mean by this?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> 11 for Cons, 0 for others?! CMF was alway pro Liberal forum, especially after James got the badge 🤔
> sags is also voting Conservative?!
> P.S. we have a good chance to defeat Trudeau dictatorship!


Some of the heavier political posters are NDP/Liberal supporters.
Some are actually quite informed on issues. They just have political leanings that run counter to fiscal responsibility.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> No, this forum is biased by the fact that people on this forum share a common interest (about money and wealth).


This is a pretty conservative board overall. Just the culture of this place.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> This is a pretty conservative board overall. Just the culture of this place.


If so, it just became recently! I remember such polls for previous elections... results were very different


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Spudd said:


> There has been a pandemic for most of the last two years, that might be what's slowing it down.


But this is a paper work that can be done anywhere. Also , imho, during Covid immigration numbers should’ve decline.
Actually curious how current process is going, AFAIR, we got all papers back in 3-4 months , then within months or two were invited to do test (MIL shouldn’t do it because of the age) and then there was some gathering to swear to British Queen and sing Oh Canada 😁. Now Probably all those things are done online?!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I'm curious what you mean by this?


I mean that current government can set priorities who gets citizenship first in order to gain more votes


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> ... Liberals are aware that no Israeli would vote for them, but all pseudo-refugees are "Liberal"





Rusty O'Toole said:


> I'm curious what you mean by this?





gibor365 said:


> I mean that current government can set priorities who gets citizenship first in order to gain more votes


 .. looks more like the multi-colours coat of racism to me.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> You.re in good financial shape and I applaud you and ur wife for working to put it all in place.


 .. he was talking about his MIL=mother-in-law (who presumably is waaaay over age 55), getting OAS + CPP (aka Canada's social benefits) + another country's pension (which waaaay exceeded her Canadian's versions) when questioned about her "income" to qualify for her delayed Canadian citizenship.

Now he's talking about him getting OAS + CPP when he becomes of age at 60 + 65 then.

Btw, I know a few people who lived and worked in this country for more than a decade (with kids too) but did not bother (or should I say, did not want to) obtain Canadian citizenship (for whatever reason). Both were my ex-bosses, one from the UK and another from the Iran . I'm guessing both got the notion that they have to pledge to Canada's PMs or GG when asked "why not?", now that the Queen is out of the picture.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> This is a pretty conservative board overall. Just the culture of this place.


Or the mindset of people that care about money.
Lots of the NDP philosophy shows they don't care or understand money at all, that's why they're not really on forums such as this.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Exactly. Financial education is above average on a forum like this, so it makes sense that few would support NDP and Liberals


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## MrsPartridge (May 15, 2016)

Maybe MIL's age is making them drag their feet? Older people use more health services which are strained even without factoring in Covid.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Or the mindset of people that care about money.
> Lots of the NDP philosophy shows they don't care or understand money at all, that's why they're not really on forums such as this.


They care about money , but in different way 😁. They like a lot government’s “gifts”! There philosophy is “take from rich, give to poor (NDP supported)”


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> They care about money , but in different way 😁. They like a lot government’s “gifts”! There philosophy is “take from rich, give to poor (NDP supported)”


They want money, but they don't care or understand what money means, or how it works.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrsPartridge said:


> Maybe MIL's age is making them drag their feet? Older people use more health services which are strained even without factoring in Covid.


Guys, some of you live in imaginary world 🤣. I mentioned several times that she’s Permanent Resident for 5+ years (from day she came to Canada). Obviously she gets all medical services exactly like you! The only thing she cannot do w/o citizenship- its vote in the elections


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> They want money, but they don't care or understand what money means, or how it works.


That’s what I meant!


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## MrsPartridge (May 15, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> Guys, some of you live in imaginary world 🤣. I mentioned several times that she’s Permanent Resident for 5+ years (from day she came to Canada). Obviously she gets all medical services exactly like you! The only thing she cannot do w/o citizenship- its vote in the elections


The real problem with PR is you have to track the times you come in and leave the country. That's a pain. Otherwise it's no problem to stay as PR.

I too think it's because so many are working from home that our government services are slower than normal now.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Or the mindset of people that care about money.
> Lots of the NDP philosophy shows they don't care or understand money at all, that's why they're not really on forums such as this.


No, I don't think it's about interest in money. I think it's more about the age and gender of this board (lots of old men) plus the geographic leaning, possibly.

I'm on other investment related boards as well, and the ones with younger people sound very different than this one.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrsPartridge said:


> The real problem with PR is you have to track the times you come in and leave the country. That's a pain. Otherwise it's no problem to stay as PR.
> 
> I too think it's because so many are working from home that our government services are slower than normal now.


Tracking your absence is not relevant to what you said earlier about medical system 😂.
And why it’s slower 5 times than before, hence less immigrants are coming?! What our amazing government employees doing when “working from home”?!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> No, I don't think it's about interest in money. I think it's more about the age and gender of this board (lots of old men) plus the geographic leaning, possibly.
> 
> I'm on other investment related boards as well, and the ones with younger people sound very different than this one.


Yes, because they don't understand how money works.
As a former NDP voter myself, and knowing many lifelong NDP supporters, a lot of them simply don't understand how things work.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Beaver101 said:


> .. he was talking about his MIL=mother-in-law (who presumably is waaaay over age 55), getting OAS + CPP (aka Canada's social benefits) + another country's pension (which waaaay exceeded her Canadian's versions) when questioned about her "income" to qualify for her delayed Canadian citizenship.


Not sure why you thought I didn't understand, but maybe helpful to others.

[/QUOTE]

Now he's talking about him getting OAS + CPP when he becomes of age at 60 + 65 then.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, his post #16 was responsive and sufficient, but thank you.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Beaver101 said:


> .. looks more like the multi-colours coat of racism to me.


Still not sure what you mean. I thought Isrealis generally leaned left in politics.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> Not sure why you thought I didn't understand, but maybe helpful to others.


Now he's talking about him getting OAS + CPP when he becomes of age at 60 + 65 then.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, his post #16 was responsive and sufficient, but thank you.
[/QUOTE] ... it's reference to his #12 post but then I couldn't triple-multi-quote-the-posts so just responded to your latest one. Anyhow, we're on the same page you got this figured out re your affirmation of his/hers OAS/CPP/net worth.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Still not sure what you mean. I thought Isrealis generally leaned left in politics.


 ... referring to gibor. Don't care which political party "Israelis" lean towards nor specifically labelling "Syrian" refugees as being pseudo-Liberals. Next it's going to be pseudo-Afghans lest we forget the boat people refugees, and ... should I go on? The reality is this country is built on immigrants and we need peaceful "refugees" to be able to continue living here.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> Retiredguy said:
> 
> 
> > You.re in good financial shape and I applaud you and ur wife for working to put it all in place.
> ...


The way I read post # 11 was that the MIL's foreign pension (mislabeled as OAS) is bigger than his future CPP combined with OAS.

I don't recall anything saying the MIL has worked in Canada so I'm doubting CPP is likely for her.


Cheers


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> Not sure why you thought I didn't understand, but maybe helpful to others.


Now he's talking about him getting OAS + CPP when he becomes of age at 60 + 65 then.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, his post #16 was responsive and sufficient, but thank you.
[/QUOTE]
If you are talking about “imaginary world” , I wasn’t referring to you 😁, but for posters who said:

she doesn’t get it because she doesn’t have sufficient income
free health care
Both things are completely wrong!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Still not sure what you mean. I thought Isrealis generally leaned left in politics.


Absolutely not true! I still have to meet one Israeli -Canadian (and actually one Russian or Ukrainian Canadian) who votes for Liberals!
Israeli politics itself is very different , left and right in Israel mostly distinguished by view on issues with Territories (West Bank and Gaza) and religion.
So, as I’m pro-capitalism and secular, I voted in Israel always for center-left party (MERETZ) and in Canada only Conservatives


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> The way I read post # 11 was that the MIL's foreign pension (mislabeled as OAS) is bigger than his future CPP combined with OAS.
> 
> I don't recall anything saying the MIL has worked in Canada so I'm doubting CPP is likely for her.
> 
> ...


No, she’s getting Israeli analog of OAS. She gets a bit more than basic Israeli OAS as she worked maybe 5 years there with minimum salary. Canadian analog of GIS she stopped receiving after moving to Canada.

if I were staying in Israel and continue working in Police, I’d start getting (5 years ago) Israeli pension around 100k (Canadian)


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> If so, it just became recently! I remember such polls for previous elections... results were very different


Then we have very fickle people on this forum.

I may be part of them, but that's maybe because I'm still young, but I'm being constant in *never* voting for Conservatives.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Then we have very fickle people on this forum.
> 
> I may be part of them, but that's maybe because I'm still young, but I'm being constant in never voting for Conservatives.


*If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain*


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> *If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain*


If you're not a liberal, you have no heart nor a brain.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Well, it's sad to hear that it seems to all come down to money.

Don't you have other values with higher purpose? Social responsibility, volunteering, helping those in need, equity?

The most important part of our life is social and yet we are so individualistic.

I'm on a money forum but I hate money and I don't really care about money. I'm here just because I gotta play this stupid game.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Well, it's sad to hear that it seems to all come down to money.
> 
> Don't you have other values with higher purpose? Social responsibility, volunteering, helping those in need, equity?
> 
> ...


Yes, I hold all of those values. I volunteer, feel socially responsible, and believe in equality.
I simply believe that conservative party represents those values much better than Liberal party does.
Liberal party exploits division, sows it. They have openly racist policies. They promote racism so then they can virtue signal. It is all fake. They benefit from division and they do everything to keep the country divided for that very reason. They are doing the best they can to destroy the middle class. 
Therefore, because I hold the values that you have listed, I can't with clear conscience vote for current liberal party


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Well, it's sad to hear that it seems to all come down to money.



Not for most of us.



> Don't you have other values with higher purpose? Social responsibility, volunteering, helping those in need, equity?


Yes, which is why i shake my head at modern left wing politics.
They've abandoned these concepts, (and human rights) in their greed and search for more.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I think I will vote Conservative. O'Toole just announced that he will balance the budget without making any cuts. 

Par for the course. Surprised that it took so long to announce this gem. It gets pulled out every election by both parties. 

This is one promise that is getting long in the tooth with voters.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm pretty sure I'll vote Conservative. I am certainly no fan of Trudeau's ideas, attitudes and arrogance. Who really thought he had the skillset to lead Canada to prosperity anyway ?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Mechanic said:


> I'm pretty sure I'll vote Conservative. I am certainly no fan of Trudeau's ideas, attitudes and arrogance. Who really thought he had the skillset to lead Canada to prosperity anyway ?


Those who voted for him in the last two elections.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

I don't really understand the PPC votes. 

If I thought they had a chance I'd vote for them too, but wouldn't those that say they're voting PPC rather have Conservative instead of Liberal? 

A PPC vote takes a vote away from the Conservative's chances.

ltr


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

ian said:


> I think I will vote Conservative. O'Toole just announced that he will balance the budget without making any cuts.


That would be quite a trick!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> I don't really understand the PPC votes.
> 
> If I thought they had a chance I'd vote for them too, but wouldn't those that say they're voting PPC rather have Conservative instead of Liberal?
> 
> ...


Curious--what do you prefer about PPC?

Seems like a me-too Trump party.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

ian said:


> Those who voted for him in the last two elections.


If I remember he won by promising to import more Syrians than Harper.


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

For the first time in my life I voted Liberal in 2015. It was actually a vote against Stephen Harper who I felt had lied in the Duffy affair and did not deserve another term. Now that Justin Trudeau has been in power for a few years, I feel he is unqualified and just a ”talking suit”. He refuses to give a straight answer and is ethically challenged. His treatment of the Afghan‘s who assisted the Canadian troops is and was deplorable. Time for a change.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

JT is a nut...this critter thinks so too


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432715908636725258


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

^

That's a red squirrel, not a little chipper. I was waiting for some bird crap! Please don't vote for him again.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

andrewf said:


> Curious--what do you prefer about PPC?
> 
> Seems like a me-too Trump party.


Every time I hear Maxime Bernier speak on a topic I find myself agreeing with him. I suspect I am somewhat of a Libertarian. He seems to support small government, and he appears to be the only leader that is serious about our deficit, and he's definitely the only fiscal conservative of the bunch. I dislike the social conservative crowd in the CPC.

I remember in his talks during the CPC leadership (that he almost won) he supported free markets and wanted to change our supply management system. I agree with that.

He rejects climate alarmism and wants to allow the oil and gas industry to grow. How could any sensible person not want our economy to grow through our natural resources.

There's a lot I like about Bernier and think he made a bad mistake in leaving. He'd probably be the leader now if he'd stayed.

ltr


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I think Max should have stayed with the Cons where some of his great ideas would have a chance to be implemented. Big loss to the Cons.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eder said:


> I think Max should have stayed with the Cons where some of his great ideas would have a chance to be implemented. Big loss to the Cons.


The CPC just released a Liberal election platform. Maybe he just doesn't support that.

Also the great ideas should be implemented anyway, irrespective of party.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

In West Van, we swept the Liberals into power. Now we will sweep them back out.

Maybe Freeland will take over?


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

everyone wants to vote for the winner 
no one wants to waste their vote on the looser


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

kcowan said:


> In West Van, we swept the Liberals into power. Now we will sweep them back out.
> 
> Maybe Freeland will take over?


With the gas prices you have over there I am surprised you don't have full on riots in the streets to overthrow government, let alone vote to kick them out


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> With the gas prices you have over there I am surprised you don't have full on riots in the streets to overthrow government, let alone vote to kick them out


Canadians are too passive!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> I don't really understand the PPC votes.
> 
> If I thought they had a chance I'd vote for them too, but wouldn't those that say they're voting PPC rather have Conservative instead of Liberal?
> 
> ...


Sure! Last election Cons lost 7 seats because of PPC! I'd consider PPC if we had PR voting system


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> With the gas prices you have over there I am surprised you don't have full on riots in the streets to overthrow government, let alone vote to kick them out


They have high gas prices because the "anti-carbon" policies.
Honestly, Alberta should have pulled the plug on those jokers.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Sure! Last election Cons lost 7 seats because of PPC! I'd consider PPC if we had PR voting system


Instant runoff/ranked voting.

I think we'd see significantly different politics. I think a big thing would be less sacrificing principles "for the party", and more standing up for what the riding wants.
PR would mean total allegiance to the party, and that would be bad.

Think about it, lets say they want bad idea X.

If you're under PR, they could force you to vote for it, or kick you out of the party.
Under instant runoff/ranked you could fight against it, and having the support of your riding no matter how bad the party came at you, they couldn't stop you.

As it is now, most of us are voting for the least bad party, I don't think many are fervent supporters of the candidate in their riding.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Instant runoff/ranked voting.
> 
> I think we'd see significantly different politics. I think a big thing would be less sacrificing principles "for the party", and more standing up for what the riding wants.
> PR would mean total allegiance to the party, and that would be bad.
> ...


Not true! With current system you can be kicked out of the party too! Look at Roman Baber whom Ford kicked out of the party.
I’m voting for party , not for specific candidate whom I don’t know at all.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Not true! With current system you can be kicked out of the party too! Look at Roman Baber whom Ford kicked out of the party.
> I’m voting for party , not for specific candidate whom I don’t know at all.


That's what I do today.
But it's a party I don't like, for policies I generally disagree with, but they're the least bad option.


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## Karlhungus (Oct 4, 2013)

Mad max didnt get vaccinated. Shows how poor his judgement is. "Im healthy" he says. So dumb. As if no healthy individuals are dying from covid.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

As per latest from 338Canada..... seat projections 
CPC 142, LPC 129, NDP 38, BQ 27
So, currently, Trudeau cannot have majority even with NDP. CPC may have majority with BQ and Bernier


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Karlhungus said:


> Mad max didnt get vaccinated


What a goofball.

Bernier is 58 year old who's constantly travelling and visiting people, so he's at very high risk of covid. He also got arrested in Manitoba for violating public health orders.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> What a goofball.
> 
> Bernier is 58 year old who's constantly travelling and visiting people, so he's at very high risk of covid. He also got arrested in Manitoba for violating public health orders.


So he did all that and didn't get COVID?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

My mail ballot will be in Canada Post late next week.....

It's going to be a disaster at some polling stations. Elections Canada is struggling to find enough polling stations and workers to man them. They are advertising everywhere including Facebook.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> My mail ballot will be in Canada Post late next week.....
> 
> It's going to be a disaster at some polling stations. Elections Canada is struggling to find enough polling stations and workers to man them. They are advertising everywhere including Facebook.


I still didn’t get voter card and gave no idea where I can vote (when I checked last time, there was a statement that polling stations are unknown and advanced voting starts Sep 10.... what a mess!


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Which party is promising to reverse back to Harpers TFSA 10,000 contribution room?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Which party is promising to reverse back to Harpers TFSA 10,000 contribution room?


CPC... And AFAIR it was 11k


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

*338Canada - Odds of winning of the most seats
CPC 61%
Trudeau dictatorship 38%

Very nice!*


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

It seems that Turdeaus threat of another election in 18 months is indeed hollow.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

O'Toole had a really bad day yesterday. He lost ground in Atlantic Canada, Quebec and Ontario.

The Liberals are now only 2 points behind the Conservatives and rising fast. The Liberals lead the projected ridings by 5 seats.

At this point it looks like another Liberal/NDP coalition government, which has worked well for 2 years so no worries.

Seniors are waiting for their "election package" to be announced before committing, so that will add some more votes.

I expect there will be a flurry of new pledges coming from all the parties as the race tightens up.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

There is a long way to go before Sept 20th. Polling will fluctuate up and down like the tides.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

So far it isn't really fluctuating. Pretty much perfect trendlines.
But yeah. It isn't going to continue until election. 
Liberals are unlikely to end up at 23-24% and conservatives are unlikely to end up at 42%.
The biggest surprise this election imho is the People's Party move. Two most recent polls have them at 6 and 7% nationally


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

$5,000 for each year from 2009 to 2012;
$5,500 for each of 2013 and 2014;
$10,000 for 2015;
$5,500 for each of 2016, 2017 and 2018; and.
$6,000 for 2019, 2020 and 2021.



gibor365 said:


> CPC... And AFAIR it was 11k


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> $5,000 for each year from 2009 to 2012;
> $5,500 for each of 2013 and 2014;
> $10,000 for 2015;
> $5,500 for each of 2016, 2017 and 2018; and.
> $6,000 for 2019, 2020 and 2021.


So, I didn’t remember correctly 😜


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> So, I didn’t remember correctly 😜


I don’t see on the conservative platform promise to return TFSA back to 10k


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Which party is most pro-war, pro-global conflict?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Which party is most pro-war, pro-global conflict?


Liberal in Canada, Democratic in US


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Which party is most pro-war, pro-global conflict?
> 
> 
> gibor365 said:
> ...


lmao ...


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t see on the conservative platform promise to return TFSA back to 10k


Fake news from somewhere.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Which party is most pro-war, pro-global conflict?


I don't think any of them are.
I think Chretien went to Afghanistan to avoid getting sucked into Iraq.
I also think it was a good move on his part.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> My mail ballot will be in Canada Post late next week.....
> 
> It's going to be a disaster at some polling stations. Elections Canada is struggling to find enough polling stations and workers to man them. They are advertising everywhere including Facebook.


On Saturday there were ads on the radio for school bus drivers.
School starts Tuesday


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Did they put up plexiglass to separate the drivers from the kids ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

School bus drivers in Ontario work 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon. They earn $14-$20 an hour depending on location.

The expectations of the job.......no wonder people aren't interested.





__





Pandemic Guidelines - Student Transportation and COVID-19 | Student Transportation Services of Central Ontario







stsco.ca


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Voting today. Sadly, it came down to voting against the incumbent. He is one of those closet Reformers who I believe would like to see, among other things, capital punishment revived, workhouses for the poor established, and changes to our Charter to make abortion, same sex marriages, and homosexuality illegal and punishable with mandatory prison sentences. Hard time if at all possible. 

Yes to limited immigration but only white skinned professionals from western Europe who call themselves Christians. Definite no to refugees but couched in different terminology of course.

Oh, and of course extra billing healthcare in order to reduce wait times at hospitals and clinics. Those that cannot afford it will no longer be in the line.

On the plus side he does claim to support 'family values', 'law and order', and 'balancing the budget'. He just is not clear on what he means or the specifics on any one of those.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> I think Chretien went to Afghanistan to avoid getting sucked into Iraq.


Canada went into Afghanistan when the Americans put out the NATO Article 5 bat-signal and for no other reason. Any Canadian governing party would have had to do the exact same thing under the NATO treaty.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> I still didn’t get voter card and gave no idea where I can vote (when I checked last time, there was a statement that polling stations are unknown and advanced voting starts Sep 10.... what a mess!


We went to the advance poll Friday early afternoon. No line up. Lots of staff to guide and keep people separated. We were first in line for our poll/letter of our last name. In and out in 5 minutes. Extremely well organized right down to someone recording our name/phone number in case of a covid issue. IMHO, Elections Canada did a great jog....at least at our polling place.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gardner said:


> Canada went into Afghanistan when the Americans put out the NATO Article 5 bat-signal and for no other reason. Any Canadian governing party would have had to do the exact same thing under the NATO treaty.


And let's remember this history with America's wars, because this is very important. There is a BIG difference in values between these parties.

The Bush White House started a massive war in Iraq for no reason, killing countless civilians (and American troops). The *Liberal PM, Chretien*, decided that Canada would not join the war.

Here's what an archived Macleans article says about it:

​Chrétien's decision was popular with Liberal, NDP and Bloc Québécois MPs. And it will be welcomed by most Canadians. Polls have consistently found a large majority do not favour Canada acting outside the UN umbrella. But critics, particularly the Canadian Alliance, argued Chrétien had placed the country outside the circle of its traditional allies - most notably the U.S., Great Britain and Australia - that have stuck together in most international conflicts over the past century. "I don't know what the ramifications are," warned Alliance Leader Stephen Harper, "but I know they won't be good."​​
Did you catch that part about the warmonger who wanted to go to war? It's the Canadian Alliance, which are now calling themselves the Conservative Party.

These are different parties with very different values. Don't forget who these people are. Harper is now in the espionage and (digital) weapons business, partnering with leaders of the CIA and Mossad. The man is a ghoul. Warmonger filth.

Pay attention to the values of the parties you vote for. *Your choices are the Liberals, or the Canadian Alliance.*


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

ian said:


> We went to the advance poll Friday early afternoon. No line up. Lots of staff to guide and keep people separated. We were first in line for our poll/letter of our last name. In and out in 5 minutes. Extremely well organized right down to someone recording our name/phone number in case of a covid issue. IMHO, Elections Canada did a great jog....at least at our polling place.


 ... good to know, thanks. Just got my card yesterday - now debating on advance or non-advance voting which is dependent on my (working) schedule.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

ian said:


> We went to the advance poll Friday early afternoon. No line up. Lots of staff to guide and keep people separated. We were first in line for our poll/letter of our last name. In and out in 5 minutes. Extremely well organized right down to someone recording our name/phone number in case of a covid issue. IMHO, Elections Canada did a great jog....at least at our polling place.


Your area must be better organized that ours. There was only one poll station at the advance polls here. There was local news coverage of the lineups.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Your area must be better organized that ours. There was only one poll station at the advance polls here. There was local news coverage of the lineups.


Weird here it was in and out in a few minutes.. all day from multiple people.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

As per https://poll.forumresearch.com/data...e95Federal Election Poll - Sept 11th 2021.pdf

PPC has 14% support in ATL , 12% in AB, 11% in BC and 10% in ON! Wow!
With any election system based on popular vote, PPC would easily be 3rd party (above NDP commies)


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Your area must be better organized that ours. There was only one poll station at the advance polls here. There was local news coverage of the lineups.


Actually we also have only 1 poll station in local community center... before you could've just walk to the closest school, now it's 7-8 min driving.... Going to vote today


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Actually we also have only 1 poll station in local community center... before you could've just walk to the closest school, now it's 7-8 min driving.... Going to vote today


Keep in mind previous elections weren’t during a pandemic (thanks trudeau 😡). In my city, our School is trying to keep people out of the schools during school time. especially with the younger grades which can’t be vaccinated. The polling stations seem to be churches, community centres and public building were possible. Some of the high schools where the kids can be vacinate pd are open, but most schools in my area are not an option.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We have polling stations........we use the same as always in our private community centre.

The problem is that inside there is only one person sitting at a desk to sign up and check verification and check off the list, and only one box to vote in. 

So only 1 person at a time can vote and we have a lot of elderly people in this area who are slow at everything.

People were taking 10 minutes or more each. When the woman told us it would be 20 minutes just to get inside, after already waiting 15 minutes, I looked inside and they had 6 people sitting in chairs already waiting to vote.

That would mean another hour or more of waiting.........with most of it inside sitting on a chair with 5 other people.

The local paper is blaming Election Canada, not the volunteers.

What many don't understand is why they have so many poll workers just standing around and only one working.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I just walked in to our advanced polling station. It’s just getting one for a really large area. I didnt have my voters card, so had an extra step in for them to look me up with just my drivers license. There was one person in line front of me, when arrived, and when I was leaving about a line 6. It was just a few minutes in and out. 

there was a person greeting and having people go I. Line socially distanced. A person doing the registrations for people without voter cards, and about 5 polling stations by last name.

I looked at my last post time, and it took me less than 20 minutes from leavong my house, driving and parking, registering, voting, driving to check on community garden on the way back home, and posting.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

This is pretty much what it looked like here. The story says this poll (not the one we used but close by) also only had one poll worker.

Being Canadian we tend to take things in stride, but if people don't complain nothing will get fixed.









Advance polls open to long lines, frustration as COVID-19 forces changes


Londoners looking to avoid election-day crowds by heading to advance polls Friday were met with line-ups at many sites, sparking some voter frustration.




lfpress.com


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just voted


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> And let's remember this history with America's wars, because this is very important. There is a BIG difference in values between these parties.
> 
> The Bush White House started a massive war in Iraq for no reason, killing countless civilians (and American troops). The *Liberal PM, Chretien*, decided that Canada would not join the war.
> 
> ...


Your choice is a PM who has accepted bribes from organizations he funds, or one who hasn't.

Or you can pull up history, and false attributions to now defunct political parties.
O'Toole wasn't an MP 20 years ago when the Canadian Alliance was a thing


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

sags said:


> This is pretty much what it looked like here. The story says this poll (not the one we used but close by) also only had one poll worker.
> 
> Being Canadian we tend to take things in stride, but if people don't complain nothing will get fixed ...


Given the number of retired folks who used to do this, I'm wondering if it's more about a staff shortage.

The two advance polls I have been in have had short lines, multiple registration desks and multiple polling stations.
The workers seems to be a younger than I recall from previous elections.


Cheers


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

The Bernier Bunch showed up at my door last night.

I said you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.

"You are just a bunch of anti-vaxxers stirring up the loonies." 

They were the ones throwing stuff at Trudeau here in London.

One guy has been charged for that.

But she said "We aren't anti-vaxxers we are pro choice".

Mrs. Zipper had to pull me back inside.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Zipper said:


> The Bernier Bunch showed up at my door last night.
> 
> I said you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
> 
> ...


To our house usually come Liberal lunatics 🤣


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Anyone knocking on doors is pretty goofey
Politicians,green peace, jehovah witnesses 
All friutcakes
I did like the fuller brush man though


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eder said:


> Anyone knocking on doors is pretty goofey
> Politicians,green peace, jehovah witnesses
> All friutcakes
> I did like the fuller brush man though


The funny part that liberals lunatics coming in groups to my house when I got Conservative lawn sigh 😁 last time I asked them if they are nuts 🤣


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> The funny part that liberals lunatics coming in groups to my house when I got Conservative lawn sigh 😁 last time I asked them if they are nuts 🤣


They can smell the good cooking.......


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We haven't had anyone at the door, and not a bit of mail in the box.

I think the only leader who was here is Trudeau and he didn't stay long.

They have one poll worker.

I am beginning to think they don't love us anymore.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> They can smell the good cooking.......


We don’t cook bats 😂


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> We have polling stations........we use the same as always in our private community centre.
> 
> The problem is that inside there is only one person sitting at a desk to sign up and check verification and check off the list, and only one box to vote in.
> 
> ...


L:ike I said, here in London there was only a few minutes wait.



> What many don't understand is why they have so many poll workers just standing around and only one working.


Well of the 5 workers
1 - Contact tracing
2 - helping people register
1 - issuing and collecting ballots.

2 other people were doing something else, not sure what I didn't interact with them.

This (except for contact tracing) is normal for advance polling here.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Zipper said:


> The Bernier Bunch showed up at my door last night.
> 
> I said you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
> 
> ...


And that person was turfed, just like when the Liberals or CPC get accusations of inappropropriate behaviour.
Well except Trudeau, then he fires the accusers.



> One guy has been charged for that.


Good



> But she said "We aren't anti-vaxxers we are pro choice".


Some people actually don't think the government should be regulating what we do with our own bodies.
If you can literally kill someone in the name of "bodily autonomy", you should be able to refuse a medical procedure, and there shouldn't be coersion in either case.



> Mrs. Zipper had to pull me back inside.


Why?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> L:ike I said, here in London there was only a few minutes wait.
> 
> 
> Well of the 5 workers
> ...


Everything but processing ballots.........great planning.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Everything but processing ballots.........great planning.


Uh yeah.
Because this is normally just fine for advance polling, honestly I was surprised to see that there was a steady stream, normally advance polling is really quiet.


They added someone for COVID19, and otherwise kept their normal setup.

I think people are choosing some really weird things to complain about.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*‘In that moment, I knew he wanted me to lie.’ Jody Wilson-Raybould recalls a tension-filled meeting with Justin Trudeau








Opinion: ‘In that moment, I knew he wanted me to lie.’ Jody Wilson-Raybould recalls a tension-filled meeting with Justin Trudeau


In this exclusive excerpt from her memoir ‘Indian’ in the Cabinet, the former minister of justice recounts what happened in the days after the SNC-Lavalin scandal became front-page news




www.theglobeandmail.com




*


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

LOL.........she says a lot of dumb things.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> LOL.........she says a lot of dumb things.


Trudeau goes by he, not she.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Voted today.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Trudeau goes by he, not she.


Don't assume they pronouns.
But we already knew he is racist and corrupted.
If some people chose to ignore it, simply another proof of it won't matter either.
They simply support corrupt racist. Those are their values I guess.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I wanted to use a mail in ballot but apparently they have not yet arrived. Its pretty cool that Elections Canada will allow me to vote for my riding in Medicine Hat by special ballot in Sidney by Sept 14th.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Eder said:


> I wanted to use a mail in ballot but apparently they have not yet arrived. Its pretty cool that Elections Canada will allow me to vote for my riding in Medicine Hat by special ballot in Sidney by Sept 14th.


If you worried about covid, I voted today and there was no one except the personal seating probably ten meter from each other, they asked me to sanitize hands, masks were provided but optional (I was not wearing one).
One other voter arrived when I was leaving.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If you worried about covid, I voted today and there was no one except the personal seating probably ten meter from each other, they asked me to sanitize hands, masks were provided but optional (I was not wearing one).
> One other voter arrived when I was leaving.


When I voted they also asked me to sanitize my hands ... I refused telling that my hands are clean 😁


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Ukrainiandude said:


> .. masks were provided but optional (I was not wearing one).


What a rebel - risk everyone's life to be cool.

ltr


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> What a rebel - risk everyone's life to be cool.
> 
> ltr


Literally risking everyone's life. 😂🙄


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Literally risking everyone's life. 😂🙄


When you drive your car, you also risking everybody’s life 🤣


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am going out on a limb with a crazy prediction.

I predict the election results won't be anywhere close to the poll results on this thread.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

like_to_retire said:


> What a rebel - risk everyone's life to be cool.
> 
> ltr


I don’t wear it if I don’t have to, the province has abolished the mask mandate but some places, like U of S still require it, but most don’t. I am tired of those masks and I am grateful to our prime minister for not enforcing it now when vaccines are widely available.
plus at the voting station there were literally four people all spaced, behind the plexiglass and spaced, not much risk. When go to Costco I also don’t requested to wear a mask (and I don’t), I surrounded by people much closer proximity, and 80% are not wearing masks.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I am going out on a limb with a crazy prediction.
> 
> I predict the election results won't be anywhere close to the poll results on this thread.


That's not much of a limb, There is no way 80% of the country is concerned about finance and quality of life.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> That's not much of a limb, There is no way 80% of the country is concerned about finance and quality of life.


Yikes.
At least you're speaking honestly.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t wear it if I don’t have to, the province has abolished the mask mandate but some places, like U of S still require it, but most don’t. I am tired of those masks and I am grateful to our prime minister for not enforcing it now when vaccines are widely available.
> plus at the voting station there were literally four people all spaced, behind the plexiglass and spaced, not much risk. When go to Costco I also don’t requested to wear a mask (and I don’t), I surrounded by people much closer proximity, and 80% are not wearing masks.


Kudos to you.
No sarcasm involved, I am proud you are using your rights and freedoms to not use a mask.

Good for you. I mean that.
I wish I had that freedom in Ontario.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> *I don’t wear it if I don’t have to,* the province has abolished the mask mandate but some places, like U of S still require it, but most don’t. I am tired of those masks and I am grateful to our prime minister for not enforcing it now when vaccines are widely available.
> plus at the voting station there were literally four people all spaced, behind the plexiglass and spaced, not much risk. When go to Costco I also don’t requested to wear a mask (and I don’t), I surrounded by people much closer proximity, and 80% are not wearing masks.


I'd do the same!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I fail to see what the big deal is about wearing masks in public places. We do not care one way or the other. And we certainly do not equate wearing a mask to freedom or tyranny as some would suggest.

We are so used to it that we always wear them in public. It is nothing new for my spouse. For me, the biggest challenge was remembering to take it with me when I exit the car.

We have had endless marches in our city over this. I have yet to see a march over child poverty, seniors poverty, low income housing, spousal abuse, or any other of the social issues facing Canadians. I suspect that many of the marches are coordinated by people who have a far different agenda than masks or social justice for that matter.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Don't be a [email protected]# wear a mask.

low cost, might make others feel better, why not.
I wear a shirt in public for the same reason.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We live in Alberta.

Alberta's current number of active covid cases is 367 cases per 100.000 population. The Canadian average is105 cases per 100,000 pop. Ontario's current number is 42 cases per 100.000 population.

Speaks volumes to me about the differences in each Province's approach to covid.

On either side of us? Sask is sitting at 318 active cases per 100,000 pop. BC's number is 122 cases per 100,000 population.

Our Premier told us in July that covid was essentially over, testing would be stopped, restrictions lifted, and that this would be 'the best summer yet'.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

ian said:


> march over child poverty, seniors poverty, low income housing, spousal abuse


Children are responsibility of their parents, senior poverty are responsibility of the same people at working age; low income get a different job; spousal abuse? You chose your spouse. 
Problem solved.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Alberta still tests more than twice as many people as BC. Turning down the testing frequency should shrink cases to a better number. A bit pointless I know but thats how we keep score in Canada.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

ian said:


> Sask is sitting at 318 active cases per 100,000 pop.


Nine of the 22 people who died from COVID-19 in Saskatchewan in August were fully vaccinated. Most of those who died despite their vaccinations were over the age of 60, as per the provincial government.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The numbers prove that removing restrictions during this 4th wave of Delta is a glaring mistake.

Schools that just opened last week are already closing. One school in our area had 208 students told they have contact with someone infected with covid.

That will now involve thousands of people........their parents, grand parents, and everyone else those kids had contact with.

There are reports from all over of school closings. It is a just a matter of time until gyms, restaurants and bars close again.

I maintain what I always maintained..........we need to get serious and remain in lock downs until the virus is beaten down.

We can screw around for awhile......but eventually lock downs will happen.

Unfortunately none of the political parties are willing to admit to the reality publicly. They all pretend we are returning to "normal".

At least the Liberals proved they support Canadians during the pandemic, while the Conservatives had Pierre Poilivere bitching and bellowing every day about the spending, and accusing Canadians of collecting CERB because they were lazy people who didn't want to go back to work.

Anyone with concerns which political party would support Canadians during a pandemic only need to look at the past 2 years for the answer.

While the Liberals were immediately shoveling money out the door......the Conservatives were hollering for committee meetings and debates.

Canadians know who...."had their backs."


----------



## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

ian said:


> I fail to see what the big deal is about wearing masks in public places. We do not care one way or the other. And we certainly do not equate wearing a mask to freedom or tyranny as some would suggest.


Your not deaf, live in a new area or have a deviate septum obviously.

Mask changes the interaction you have with other greatly, especially in unfamiliar locations. They create distance & mis-trust in others. People cross the road to avoid interaction. Its disgusting and anti-human. Most importantly they create a loneliness that will end with more deaths:

Loneliness was associated with higher rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide.
Loneliness among heart failure patients was associated with a nearly 4 times increased risk of death, 68% increased risk of hospitalization, and 57% increased risk of emergency department visits.1





__





Loneliness and Social Isolation Linked to Serious Health Conditions


Older adults who are lonely or socially isolated are at greater risk for serious medical conditions. Here are resources to help you stay connected.




www.cdc.gov






I suspect a huge crest of early deaths in the coming years.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I am at the point where I see little difference between the two parties. Certainly some differences on platforms but I suspect very little difference when the rubber hits the road and one of them forma a Government.

Will my life change appreciably if either is elected? No. Do I expect significant change to the current status quo? Absolutely not. Minor tweaks but not matter what the election patter is or what the platforms are, either leader is going to run a Government that is within a few short degrees of centre. That is, if they expect to be re-elected. It either strays too far from the fulcrum their respective back room boys, financial backers, and the polling results will bring either back to the warm and fuzzies of the centre line. One is not bad, one is not good. They are both very mediocre.

What concerns me is that there is so much attention on the respective leaders and very little, almost none, on the quality of their respective teams, ie their potential Cabinet material. These are some of the people who have the ability to make a difference.

Both leaders will have the same challenge after 9 months or so in office. Managing the expectation gap of their MP's that now that they form Government and the expectation gap of their respective voters who somehow believed that black would become white overnight or vice versa. Disappointment when reality overtakes expectation.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

As a senior, there is nothing in any of the parties policies that changes my life in any appreciable way.

Policies like childcare will effect our son, but he has little to no interest in politics.

He is too busy working and looking after his family to spend limited time on politics.

In a strange way, it is older people who have little to gain or lose who decide most elections, and younger generations who are most effected by the choice.

It wasn't young American adults who chose the politicians who would create a draft and send them to war in Vietnam.

It isn't young adults who choose politicians who decide that a $20 minimum wage is too much, or polluting the environment to accommodate industry is the best path forward.

It seems to happen a lot that old people get the gold mine and young people get the shaft.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Not having to see that lying twerp on tv anymore would be a big win for me...as refreshing as Biden replacing that Trump idiot.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Eder said:


> Not having to see that lying twerp on tv anymore would be a big win for me...as refreshing as Biden replacing that Trump idiot.


The thing is todays PM designate could very easily become tomorrows lying twerp no matter what the party affiliation is.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Most politicians would probably fail lie detector tests.

But it also is the fault of the people for allowing them to make pledges, break them soon after being elected, and then stay in office.

Maybe what we need is a recall mechanism. It has gotten the atttention of the Governor of California and President Biden.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

ian said:


> I am at the point where I see little difference between the two parties.


I don't think the parties are the same at all. I think people should be concerned that the Liberals have exhibited some hard Left tendencies that can be quite dangerous. They attempted and were almost successful in regulating freedom of speech online and they increased their control over the media and free press by offering nearly $600 million in subsidies for select media outlets that obtain the federal government’s approval from a handpicked panel stacked with Liberal allies.

The first situations that a dictator must ensure before taking over of a country is to control the free press and eliminate free speech. Sound familiar? Trudeau has expressing admiration for China's "basic dictatorship" in the past. The Liberals under Trudeau have moved way to the Left - an entirely different situation from the past, so if you think the parties are the same, I'd look again.

ltr


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Politicians and political parties can go from hero to zero in no time. Voters can be very fickle. Remember how unpopular Stephen Harper was at the end just before he got turfed out?


----------



## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

i am disturbed about Justin Trudeau’s actions in the SNC Lavalin affair and his subsequent lies. He will not be getting my vote. For the record, I lean Conservative but voted Liberal in 2015 due to disgust with Stephen Harper and the Duffy matter.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> I don't think the parties are the same at all. I think people should be concerned that the Liberals have exhibited some hard Left tendencies that can be quite dangerous. They attempted and were almost successful in regulating freedom of speech online and they increased their control over the media and free press by offering nearly $600 million in subsidies for select media outlets that obtain the federal government’s approval from a handpicked panel stacked with Liberal allies.
> 
> The first situations that a dictator must ensure before taking over of a country is to control the free press and eliminate free speech. Sound familiar? Trudeau has expressing admiration for China's "basic dictatorship" in the past. The Liberals under Trudeau have moved way to the Left - an entirely different situation from the past, so if you think the parties are the same, I'd look again.
> 
> ltr


I agree that Trudeau represents the most fundamental shift in Canadian poltics in recent memory. A stupid idealist narcisissist. Keep him short of a majority for the sake of Canada. I had hopes his obvious shortcomings would cause him to surround himself with good people. Not the case at all! We had to get rid of Harper but jumped from the frying pan into the fire.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Most politicians would probably fail lie detector tests.
> 
> But it also is the fault of the people for allowing them to make pledges, break them soon after being elected, and then stay in office.
> 
> Maybe what we need is a recall mechanism. It has gotten the atttention of the Governor of California and President Biden.


Don't hear recalls for Trudeau.

Of course McGuinty is the biggest liar in my political memory.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I voted for the candidate. Could not bring myself to vote for our local incumbent Conservative MP. He will get elected without my vote.

We had the exact same issue in our previous riding when Rob Anders was our MP. He was so bad that even the local Conservative riding association decided to kick him to the curb.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

If Trudeau is so bad why aren't Canadians kicking him to the curb like they did to McGuinty and Harper ?

There seems to be a disconnect among voters themselves about what constitutes a 'bad leader".


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Hi


sags said:


> If Trudeau is so bad why aren't Canadians kicking him to the curb like they did to McGuinty and Harper ?
> 
> There seems to be a disconnect among voters themselves about what constitutes a 'bad leader".


First of all we have a very bad election system.
Last election Libs got less popular vote than Cons! (we'll see this one).
Government brings here very specific immigrants that for sure will vote Liberals.
btw, Italy and Germany also elected Mussolini and Hitler.... were they good leaders?!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Hitler was never elected and I don't know about Mussolin, but the closest we have to a facist leader in Canada is Bernier..........not Trudeau.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Hitler was never elected and I don't know about Mussolin, but the closest we have to a facist leader in Canada is Bernier..........not Trudeau.


Obviously that you were learning history in Canada  , Both Mussolini and Hitler won democratic elections...... and Bernier never was elected (except when he was Conservative in his QC riding)


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Numbersman61 said:


> i am disturbed about Justin Trudeau’s actions in the SNC Lavalin affair and his subsequent lies. He will not be getting my vote. For the record, I lean Conservative but voted Liberal in 2015 due to disgust with Stephen Harper and the Duffy matter.


That’s basically how I voted, not that I support other party, I just voted against JT, for the party that has the most chance of beating him.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

sags said:


> If Trudeau is so bad why aren't Canadians kicking him to the curb like they did to McGuinty and Harper ?
> 
> There seems to be a disconnect among voters themselves about what constitutes a 'bad leader".


Is this a real question?

It is largely the recent immigrants, poor people, and "do gooders" or LGBTQRS2+ that are voting for Trudeau.

Most sensible people with money and good education who were born in this country are not voting Trudeau.

Not to say all immigrants are, because they aren't, but if you have family you send money home to... Or family you are still trying to get into Canada, you are definitely voting Trudeau.

Keep in mind... Most successful people and intelligent people take risk because they can see opportunity. Less intelligent or complacent people don't like chance and they will vote for whoever the current PM is regardless of who they are just to avoid change.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Is this a real question?
> 
> It is largely the recent immigrants, poor people, and "do gooders" or LGBTQRS2+ that are voting for Trudeau.
> 
> ...


"Most sensible people with money and good education who were born in this country" aren't living in Canada, sorry 

And if you check official stats "immigrants per country" - you will see what's going on!
I bet that all Syrian "refugees" will be voting Trudeau, and I'm not familiar with even 1 Israeli/Russian/Ukranian/Polish who vote Trudeau


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> "Most sensible people with money and good education who were born in this country" aren't living in Canada, sorry
> 
> And if you check official stats "immigrants per country" - you will see what's going on!
> I bet that all Syrian "refugees" will be voting Trudeau, and I'm not familiar with even 1 Israeli/Russian/Ukranian/Polish who vote Trudeau


You are right.

And I have told you before. I have many friends from Poland, Serb and Mother Russia... All of them are voting PPC or CPC.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> You are right.
> 
> And I have told you before. I have many friends from Poland, Serb and Mother Russia... All of them are voting PPC or CPC.


For sure! And I bet that nobody voting this guy










All World would be laughing if this racist becomes PM LOL


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Good article about PPC rise


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin-otoole-maxime-bernier-peoples-party-1.6174014



Absolutely agree with Mad Max
_"Bernier's pitch to voters also includes a plan to "defund" the CBC, balance the budget quickly, cut all foreign aid, "say no to the UN" — a body he calls "a dysfunctional organization" — and pull out of the Paris climate accord. _"


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Good article about PPC rise
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin-otoole-maxime-bernier-peoples-party-1.6174014
> ...


gibor I hope you choose to make a difference and vote PPC. They seem to have all your values.

You should visit some of their support rallies as well. Have you considered attending their election night party? I bet it will be a really fun time. Bernier seems like a friendly guy and I'm sure he would be happy to meet you and shake hands.

Remember to tell everyone at the PPC event that you're an immigrant. Tell them some of your charming stories about Israel too.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> gibor I hope you choose to make a difference and vote PPC. They seem to have all your values.
> 
> You should visit some of their support rallies as well. Have you considered attending their election night party? I bet it will be a really fun time. Bernier seems like a friendly guy and I'm sure he would be happy to meet you and shake hands.
> 
> Remember to tell everyone at the PPC event that you're an immigrant. Tell them some of your charming stories about Israel too.


Have you met Bernier? From what I hear he's a very nice principled guy.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Bernier has a lot of sensible ideas and just like the rest of the leaders and their parties, he has some ideas I don't agree with, but the latter are much less than the other parties.

I am realist and so didn't vote PPC, since a vote for them is a vote for Trudeau.

ltr


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Have you met Bernier? From what I hear he's a very nice principled guy.


There's no doubt in my mind that you would like his values, MrMatt.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> There's no doubt in my mind that you would like his values, MrMatt.


Absolutely, he's the strongest in terms of human rights.

O'Toole is close, but Bernier has been the most outspoken in support of human rights.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> gibor I hope you choose to make a difference and vote PPC. They seem to have all your values.
> 
> You should visit some of their support rallies as well. Have you considered attending their election night party? I bet it will be a really fun time. Bernier seems like a friendly guy and I'm sure he would be happy to meet you and shake hands.
> 
> *Remember to tell everyone at the PPC event that you're an immigrant. Tell them some of your charming stories about Israel too.*


Don't BS! I've been to anti-Islamists rallies and there were a lot of Russian-Israeli PPC members. No any problem for me to attend PPC rallies and tell *charming stories about Israel .*
But I'd have a big problem with rallies organized in my city by two top Liberals , both pro-HAMAS and anti-semitic, Iqra Khalid and Omar Alghabra.
Good article








#Election2021: Where the Canadian Parties And Leaders Stand on Israel - TheJ.ca


Trudeau appearance at Food Fare irks Winnipeg Israelis




www.thej.ca




It shows very well that Liberal and NDP are cleary anti-Israel parties.
Trudeau visited in Winnipeg Palestinian own store whose owners organized pro-HAMAS, anti-Israeli violent rally.
_“I don’t know why he chose to go to FoodFare or where else he went. Do you know if he visited any Jewish or pro-Israel establishments?” asked Yolanda Papini-Pollock, President of Winnipeg Friends of Israel. “I can only say that when I saw it online I remembered who owns Food Fare and who organized the antisemitic car rally in Winnipeg during the war in Gaza.” 

The Israeli Canadian Council had arranged with Winnipeg police to occupy a specific corner for a pro-Israel rally the same day and when they were spotted, the pro-Palestinian group de-boarded their vehicles and lobbed rocks, water bottles and threats of rape and assault towards the small contingent of Zionists. Two ICC flags were stolen and burnt right on the street in front of police. To this date, no charges, of hate crimes, assault or anything else, have been laid.

in June the Liberals welcomed former Green MP and faux-repentant Israel-hater Jenica Atwin warmly into their party. - _sure why not LOL


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> You are right.
> 
> And I have told you before. I have many friends from Poland, Serb and Mother Russia... All of them are voting PPC or CPC.


That's because they are comfortable with the dicatorship style of the Conservatives.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> That's because they are comfortable with the dicatorship style of the Conservatives.


That's blasphemy. Countries behind iron curtain precisely lived through the government overreach.
It is like saying to holocaust survivor that he is comfortable with nazism.

You are a disgrace for humankind. Ignorant fool


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> That's blasphemy. Countries behind iron curtain precisely lived through the government overreach.
> It is like saying to holocaust survivor that he is comfortable with nazism.
> 
> You are a disgrace for humankind. Ignorant fool


Maybe people who lived under dictatorship and escaped, don't want new dictatorship?!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> That's blasphemy. Countries behind iron curtain precisely lived through the government overreach.
> It is like saying to holocaust survivor that he is comfortable with nazism.
> 
> You are a disgrace for humankind. Ignorant fool


Then you don't understand the history of the Conservative Party in recent years.

The Harper government was the closest government to a dictatorship Canada has ever seen.

You complain the Liberals try to "buy votes" by giving people what they want, and then compare them to tyrants and dicatators.

You suck and blow at the same time, and struggle with definitions.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Then you don't understand the history of the Conservative Party in recent years.
> 
> The Harper government was the closest government to a dictatorship Canada has ever seen.


Until the Liberals.



> You complain the Liberals try to "buy votes" by giving people what they want, and then compare them to tyrants and dicatators.


Yes, they're bribing us with our own money.
That's pandering, it's a sign of the new Trump/Trudeau style politics, it is not good governance.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Then you don't understand the history of the Conservative Party in recent years.
> 
> The Harper government was the closest government to a dictatorship Canada has ever seen.
> 
> ...


This will be the last post I ever reply to you. After your previous post I still can't believe just how ignorant and stupid people can be.
Disgrace to humanity

As far as I am aware Conservatives didn't have a project to introduce dictatorship in Canada.
Liberals did. March 23, 2020


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> Bernier has a lot of sensible ideas and just like the rest of the leaders and their parties, he has some ideas I don't agree with, but the latter are much less than the other parties.
> 
> I am realist and so didn't vote PPC, since a vote for them is a vote for Trudeau.
> 
> ltr


I voted for Trudeau because I thought he would recognize his shortcomings and surround himself with competent people to listen to.

Now that he has proven to be an unprincipled narcissist with dictatorial ambitions, I voted for our former PC rep. Hopefully my whole riding will do the same. We all did the last time.

My only slim hope is that all similar ridings do the same thing. Right now Trudeau has a 20 seat lead. Still 24 seats short. 

Maybe the Libs will seek a new leader. One can only hope.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> I voted for Trudeau because I thought he would recognize his shortcomings and surround himself with competent people to listen to.


I didn't vote for Trudeau, but I fully expected that he'd surround himself with competent people.
Typically most leaders get themselves a good team.

I was actually quite shocked that he showed so little respect to many senior Liberals with significant experience.
You don't have to agree with them, and you're the leader. But he was very dismissive, and that was a big mistake IMO.

I'm not a fan of Dalton McGuinty, but he did a great job of surrounding himself with more competent people. 

But Trudeau, like Trump rejected a lot of qualified people, in favour of his own insiders and loyalists. But sometimes It seems like I'm the only person who sees the Trump/Trudeau similarities.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

True.....Jody Wilson-Raybould was one of Trudeau's biggest mistakes.

Not just for the little tiff over SNC Lavalin, but she also left Trudeau with the China problem by arresting Meng because Trump wanted to use her as a bargaining chip in a China trade deal. Trudeau still has that unresolved hot mess hanging over his head.

Hopefully he will be smarter with his picks in the future.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> True.....Jody Wilson-Raybould was one of Trudeau's biggest mistakes.
> 
> Not just for the little tiff over SNC Lavalin, but she also left Trudeau with the China problem by arresting Meng because Trump wanted to use her as a bargaining chip in a China trade deal. Trudeau still has that unresolved hot mess hanging over his head.
> 
> Hopefully he will be smarter with his picks in the future.


Sure! For dictators to pick honest and smart people is the big mistake! They just need puppets!


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> True.....Jody Wilson-Raybould was one of Trudeau's biggest mistakes.
> 
> Not just for the little tiff over SNC Lavalin, but she also left Trudeau with the China problem by arresting Meng because Trump wanted to use her as a bargaining chip in a China trade deal. Trudeau still has that unresolved hot mess hanging over his head.
> 
> Hopefully he will be smarter with his picks in the future.


Yeah, not just that interfering with a Criminal case (which is illegal)

She also screwed over Canada in the courts vs first nations claims.
But that's when you hire someone based on "diversity" instead of merit.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

I still don't know who to vote for. To be honest, I can't distinguish which of the parties have a better platform. Lets face it, the only real parties are Conservatives and Liberals. NDP is a carbon copy of Liberals. Green party has no platform and I am still dumbfounded how a separatist party (BQ) can exist in a federal election. The others are a waste of energy.

All I care for is my bottom line. Who will lower my taxes and maintain or increase services? Everything else is just white noise to distract everyone from getting the truth - last I checked, there is no honor system in politics.

So that being said, I really don't care who gets elected between the two parties cause nothing will change and never will change. A minority government is probably the best option in order to keep everyone in check.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Mortgage u/w said:


> I still don't know who to vote for. To be honest, I can't distinguish which of the parties have a better platform. Lets face it, the only real parties are Conservatives and Liberals. NDP is a carbon copy of Liberals. Green party has no platform and I am still dumbfounded how a separatist party (BQ) can exist in a federal election. The others are a waste of energy.
> 
> All I care for is my bottom line. Who will lower my taxes and maintain or increase services? Everything else is just white noise to distract everyone from getting the truth - last I checked, there is no honor system in politics.
> 
> So that being said, I really don't care who gets elected between the two parties cause nothing will change and never will change. A minority government is probably the best option in order to keep everyone in check.


Neither will lower your taxes, both plan to spend like crazy.

But Trudeau is an idiot, his latest "gaffe" was not realizing that inflation is a problem for families.

He's also violated ethics many times. His friend Gerald Butts "took the fall" for one controversy, but after a few months is back in power.

Quite simply I think Trudeau is flat out horrible, and Erin is at least not obviously evil, so that's an improvement.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> *Neither will lower your taxes, both plan to spend like crazy.*
> 
> But Trudeau is an idiot, his latest "gaffe" was not realizing that inflation is a problem for families.
> 
> ...


At least there are less chances that Cons will raise taxes than Libs! Cons also would eliminate ridiculous carbon tax. May introduce family tax split again and increase TFSA. Also, most likely, they will accept much less "pseudo-refugees" and won't increase immigration . This is more than enough for us to vote Cons


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Cons also would eliminate ridiculous carbon tax.


Nope, carbon taxes are here, and they're not going anywhere.



> May introduce family tax split again and increase TFSA. Also, most likely, they will accept much less "pseudo-refugees" and won't increase immigration . This is more than enough for us to vote Cons


They'll likely increase immigration, I just hope they screen them, and ensure they have adequate support to be successful in Canada.

The problem with the Liberal refugee/immigration plan is that they weren't screened, and they weren't provided adequate support in Canada to be successful. It wasn't actually the number of people that was the problem.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

As I predicted in the Election thread, after the Liberals dragged Chretien out of hibernation, the Conservatives would respond in the 'geriatric wars".

They pulled Brian Mulroney in front of the cameras, he said the exact opposite of what O'Toole says, and then handshakes and glad tidings all around.

In this election, the biggest thing missing is the truth. They say one thing to get elected.....while they plan to do the opposite if elected.


----------



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

sags said:


> In this election, the biggest thing missing is the truth. They say one thing to get elected.....while they plan to do the opposite if elected.


Isn't the truth missing in every election? Their hands are tied regardless what they promise. We can hate the persona, but the policies will be the same regardless who appears to be "in-charge". A cute puppy leading a party will have the same results.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Isn't the truth missing in every election? Their hands are tied regardless what they promise. We can hate the persona, but the policies will be the same regardless who appears to be "in-charge". A cute puppy leading a party will have the same results.


I don't think so.
I think in general we've had pretty good leadership, the Trudeaus being an obvious exception.

Chretien/Martin were quite a team, Harper was very competent.

What really confuses me is what did Martin do to Chretien to make him so angry?


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> I don't think so.
> I think in general we've had pretty good leadership, the Trudeaus being an obvious exception.
> 
> Chretien/Martin were quite a team, Harper was very competent.
> ...


His team tried to push Chretien out before Chretien was ready to go. He lleft when HE was ready, not when Martin wanted him to go. Personal politics. Power. Egos. The usual.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> In this election, the biggest thing missing is the truth. They say one thing to get elected.....while they plan to do the opposite if elected.


This is why a person has to look at values within the party, as established by a track record. I more or less ignore every talking point they've all been going on about.

Actions speak louder than words. What have they done in past years? What kinds of policies have they supported? What laws have they actually passed?


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

That's precisely what I look at.
That's why I can't vote for corruption and racism


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

damian13ster said:


> That's precisely what I look at.
> That's why I can't vote for corruption and racism


Are you actually suggesting that there will not be any corruption in a Conservative Government? 

Are you actually suggesting that there is no racism in the current Conservative Party and there will not be any in a Conservative Government.

Corruption and racism exist in all Governments. The notion that there are black hats and white hats is incredibly naive. Reality has proven to us that all of the hats are grey. It is simply a matter of degree.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

ian said:


> Are you actually suggesting that there will not be any corruption in a Conservative Government?
> 
> Are you actually suggesting that there is no racism in the current Conservative Party and there will not be any in a Conservative Government.
> 
> Corruption and racism exist in all Governments. The notion that there are black hats and white hats is incredibly naive. Reality has proven to us that all of the hats are grey. It is simply a matter of degree.


The answer is very simple: I don't know.

Is it possible that O'Toole, if elected, will turn out to be corrupt? It is possible.
What we do KNOW though is that Trudeau is racist and corrupt.
He is the first and only Prime Minister in history to be punished for ethical violation. And it happened twice.

So why would I vote for a KNOWN racist and corrupt Prime Minister vs someone who might or might not turn out to be corrupt racist?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

O'Toole was very vocal in supporting Kenney's management of the COVID situation in Alberta. *O'Toole said that Alberta was handling it the right way.*

Now, Kenney's management has been proved to be a disaster, resulting in countless deaths.

So THAT is what an O'Toole government would get you. You'll get bad (stupid) decisions.

Article from October 2020... O'Toole thinks Alberta is doing all the right stuff. OOPS.








O’Toole blasts Liberals, praises Alberta’s pandemic response at UCP AGM | Globalnews.ca


O'Toole addressed the provincial United Conservative Party's annual general meeting by livestream from Ottawa.




globalnews.ca


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> O'Toole was very vocal in supporting Kenney's management of the COVID situation in Alberta. *O'Toole said that Alberta was handling it the right way.*
> 
> Now, Kenney's management has been proved to be a disaster, resulting in countless deaths.
> 
> ...


You can count deaths quite easily actually.
There is less per capita than in Quebec
There is less per capita than in Ontario
Wonder why Trudeau doesn't come out and criticize those provinces?
Same with cutting healthcare funding to Saskatchewan and turning blind eye to Quebec using more private healthcare than Sask does. But sure, let's play politics with healthcare funds during pandemic

When it comes to attacking PM candidate over that, just listen to Trudeau today.
When asked what he would do about the COVID situation in Alberta he answered: "It is not my job"
And he is correct! It is not in federal jurisdiction.
The mismanagement happened while Trudeau is Prime Minister.
It isn't his fault though - it is not under his jurisdiction.
It wouldn't be under O'Toole's jurisdiction either.


I think Canadians seriously need some civic lessons


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james4beach said:


> O'Toole was very vocal in supporting Kenney's management of the COVID situation in Alberta. *O'Toole said that Alberta was handling it the right way.*
> 
> Now, Kenney's management has been proved to be a disaster, resulting in countless deaths.
> 
> ...


Not to mention that O'Toole has refused to go on record as supporting vaccine passports. He can't. He depends on the socon support. He is no doubt already concerned that polls in some regions show some Conservative support migrating to PPC. 

In Alberta, O'Toole has a major issue with flip flop flip on carbon tax, his failure to endorse vaccine passports( even when Conservative Provincial Govt's have done so) his refusal to answer questions on the Conservative policy on eastern slope Rockies coal mining, (huge water pollution issue with Alberta ranchers) and of course his support of Kenney and even as late as today his failure to admit that Kenney's approach to covid is a disaster. Kenney's fall from an approval rating of 67 to the current 29/30 is hurting team O'Toole.

I find it absolutely incredible that they dragged out Mulroney instead of Harper. Or did Harper pass on the invitation????


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Kenney's fall from an approval rating of 67 to the current 29/30 is hurting team O'Toole.


Yeah. Well, people choose who they want to associate with, and O'Toole is definitely on team Kenney.



ian said:


> I find it absolutely incredible that they dragged out Mulroney instead of Harper. Or did Harper pass on the invitation????


I thought this was funny too. But Harper is busy with other pursuits.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> O'Toole was very vocal in supporting Kenney's management of the COVID situation in Alberta. *O'Toole said that Alberta was handling it the right way.*
> 
> Now, Kenney's management has been proved to be a disaster, resulting in countless deaths.
> 
> ...


You realize that is from October 2020.. perhaps you forgot, but things were different a year ago.
He was obviously talking about what they were doing then, not what they were doing in the fall of 2021.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

ian said:


> Not to mention that O'Toole has refused to go on record as supporting vaccine passports.


That's because they're a dumb idea.
If you have COVID19, you can spread it. So if you have COVID19 you should isolate.
If you don't have COVID19, you can't spread it.

Vaccine passports are just a pressure tactic to try and force people to get a medical procedure they don't want.



> Kenney's fall from an approval rating of 67 to the current 29/30 is hurting team O'Toole.


That's why Ford stayed out of the election last time, and this time. It just makes things harder.
Of course Ford knows that being nice to the Liberals is important to get Federal dollars to pay for Toronto city infrastructure.. those handouts to Toronto are how you win.



> I find it absolutely incredible that they dragged out Mulroney instead of Harper. Or did Harper pass on the invitation????


The anti-Harper hate train is really strong, it's better to keep him quiet.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> You can count deaths quite easily actually.
> There is less per capita than in Quebec
> There is less per capita than in Ontario
> Wonder why Trudeau doesn't come out and criticize those provinces?
> Same with cutting healthcare funding to Saskatchewan and turning blind eye to Quebec using more private healthcare than Sask does. But sure, let's play politics with healthcare funds during pandemic


JT is relying on the ignorance of the average Liberal voter when he takes such logically inconsistent positions.

Quebec can do no wrong for JT and many Ontario voters are not smart enough to hold him to account for it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

O'Toole has tried to move the Conservatives to a more progressive ideology, but it appears he has failed.

It is noteworthy that perhaps some of the most viable leaders for the Conservatives are no longer in politics or representing the Conservative party.

It will be interesting to see the fallout from this election. 

Will the Conservatives jerk back to the hard right and remain positioned there, or will they move further to the center ?

It will be an interesting period of time after the election. All of the leaders may have their jobs on the line, depending on the results.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

One thing remains clear. Overall the Canadian population is decidedly more progressive than the ideology of the Conservative or PPC party represent.

Where the majority of people live, in the Windsor, Ontario to Quebec City corridor, progressive ideology prevails by a large margin.

With a Liberal minority win.....5 of the last 7 governments have been minority governments, but that is only due to 3 parties splitting the vote on the left.

If there is a Conservative minority win on Monday.....the discussions between Liberals and NDP to merge will become elevated.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> O'Toole has tried to move the Conservatives to a more progressive ideology, but it appears he has failed.
> 
> It is noteworthy that perhaps some of the most viable leaders for the Conservatives are no longer in politics or representing the Conservative party.
> 
> ...


The CPC has been light-right since it's founding.

I hope they move towards the center, the fact that almost everyone has gone far left is concerning.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Light-right maybe by Canadian standards and prior to 2015.
Now they are left by Canadian standards and far-left by European standards


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Light-right maybe by Canadian standards and prior to 2015.
> Now they are left by Canadian standards and far-left by European standards


Not even talking about US standards!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> O'Toole has tried to move the Conservatives to a more progressive ideology, but it appears he has failed.
> 
> It is noteworthy that perhaps some of the most viable leaders for the Conservatives are no longer in politics or representing the Conservative party.
> 
> ...


As per your logic the most “progressive “ is Marxist-Leninist party of Canada LOL


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> As per your logic the most “progressive “ is Marxist-Leninist party of Canada LOL


naw, the KKK and BLM are the most "progressive".


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Interesting that the biggest supporters of Conservatives are Ingenious and Métis 31.7% vs 19.7% (Libs).
And the biggest supporters of LPC are South Asian





__





archive.ph






archive.md


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> Interesting that the biggest supporters of Conservatives are Ingenious and Métis 31.7% vs 19.7% (Libs).
> And the biggest supporters of LPC are South Asian
> 
> 
> ...


Jesus. PPC is at almost 9%?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> naw, the KKK and BLM are the most "progressive".


Those 2 together with “progressive “ Antifa aren’t parties 🤣


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## Benting (Dec 21, 2016)

Wife and I were not planning to vote. Change our mind because of those aggressive and profane protesters are really ticked us off !!!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Jesus. PPC is at almost 9%?


I said it before, if we had elections based on popular vote, PPC could’ve easily get 50-60 seats


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> I said it before, if we had elections based on popular vote, PPC could’ve easily get 50-60 seats


Yeah, being only right-leaning party in entire country with everyone else relatively far left will do that.
Hard to convince people leaning PPC to vote for left wing parties such as CPC, Liberals, and NDP.
It backfires in the current election system but it is what it is.

Conservatives misjudged the situation. Sliding further to the left was smart tactical choice.
Sliding far to the left was too much and now they won't be able to convince any actual conservative to vote for them


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Yeah, being only right-leaning party in entire country with everyone else relatively far left will do that.
> Hard to convince people leaning PPC to vote for left wing parties such as CPC, Liberals, and NDP.
> It backfires in the current election system but it is what it is.
> 
> ...


imho, if we had election system as PR list or another one based on popular vote, support for PPC (in current political situation) would easily doubled. I know a lot of people (include some CMF members and ourselves) who voting for current CPC only because we want to get rid of Trudeau and with current election system PPC has no chances


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> imho, if we had election system as PR list or another one based on popular vote, support for PPC (in current political situation) would easily doubled. I know a lot of people (include some CMF members and ourselves) who voting for current CPC only because we want to get rid of Trudeau and with current election system PPC has no chances


Well that's why the Liberals keep getting elected (to stop the Conservatives)

That's why FPTP isn't going anywhere.
I'd love ranked ballot...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Well that's why the Liberals keep getting elected (to stop the Conservatives)
> 
> That's why FPTP isn't going anywhere.
> I'd love ranked ballot...


IMHO, FPTP is the worst election system.
I'd call it pseudo-democratic system.... It can be the case that in All ridings one specific party is getting 50.1% and another 49.9%, thus ALL seats will belong to 1 party even though practically half voted for opposite party!
Also, every "vote" weights differently, depends on riding


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I still think ranked ballots would be worse than FPTP.
FPTP is 2nd worse solution though.
The way the parliament functions - imho proportional representation is the way to go


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> I still think ranked ballots would be worse than FPTP.
> FPTP is 2nd worse solution though.
> The way the parliament functions - imho proportional representation is the way to go


Proportional representation gives the power to the party leadership, which is bad IMO.

Why would any particular MP sit on principle if the party leader will simply kick them out.

PR is worse than FPTP.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> I still think ranked ballots would be worse than FPTP.
> FPTP is 2nd worse solution though.
> The way the parliament functions - imho proportional representation is the way to go


As I said before, my favorite is PR list system.... majority of developed world is using it ...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Proportional representation gives the power to the party leadership, which is bad IMO.
> 
> Why would any particular MP sit on principle if the party leader will simply kick them out.
> 
> PR is worse than FPTP.


Party leader cannot kick them out from Parlament , Knesset and so on.... Or they become independent or organize new party or switch to another party


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Proportional representation gives the power to the party leadership, which is bad IMO.
> 
> Why would any particular MP sit on principle if the party leader will simply kick them out.
> 
> PR is worse than FPTP.


Do you have any MPs sit on principles now?

Even on this forum where people are supposed to be intelligent you have criticism for not being able to get 'your MPs in line'.

Party leaders are expected to have their caucus in check and turn MPs into nothing but glorified, overpaid voting machines.

The way I see it, there are basically two solutions:
1. Empower MPs by liquidating/weakening party structures
2. Have voting systems that reflect reality


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Do you have any MPs sit on principles now?
> 
> Even on this forum where people are supposed to be intelligent you have criticism for not being able to get 'your MPs in line'.
> 
> ...


Exactly, and the first solution is best.
With ranked ballot, every riding will be able to elect strong MPS and will weaken party structure.

Yes PR will reflect the reality of our party elite structure, and accelerate the race to a US style winner take all 2 party system. I don't think that's progress.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I don't think it will do that at all.
Based on your posts neither do you, claiming yourself that FPTP is the reason people vote Liberal. FPTP is the quickest way to 2 party system - which effectively already exists in Canada based on recent decade.
In vast majority of countries that have PR system and had it for a long time, there is no 'US style winner take all 2 party system'.

I am with you, and believe first solution is best. No one wants to implement it though.
And ranked ballots won't weaken party structure. Complete overhaul around donations, campaign financing, government structures (commissions, crown corporations, etc.) would be necessary or you still have glorified voting machines, just chosen in slightly different way.
That idea isn't even floated around though. So we have to face the current reality.
And current reality is much more suited for PR.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> I don't think it will do that at all.
> Based on your posts neither do you, claiming yourself that FPTP is the reason people vote Liberal. FPTP is the quickest way to 2 party system - which effectively already exists in Canada based on recent decade.
> In vast majority of countries that have PR system and had it for a long time, there is no 'US style winner take all 2 party system'.
> 
> ...


My city did ranked ballot, so did the CPC, and the Ontario PCs.

The big advantage of Ranked ballot is that you're not stuck with strategic voting.

Also with PR, it basically becomes "bit city voting". It's a lot easier to pander to big city and get the votes you need, keeping ridings/EDAs will help push some representation from areas outside Toronto.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Right now it is also big city voting because ridings are based on population size. 
The PR won't really change that, it will just make sure that each vote counts
It is still Quebec, GTA, Vancouver that decides.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Also with PR, it basically becomes "bit city voting". It's a lot easier to pander to big city and get the votes you need, keeping ridings/EDAs will help push some representation from areas outside Toronto.


This is actually not true! I was voting many times in Israel (who has PR list system). Usually left and right are split 50/50 , so small towns , in the middle of nowhere are very important.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Deleted......


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> Right now it is also big city voting because ridings are based on population size.


Actually, we give far too much voting power to sparsely populated rural areas. One person in a rural area has far more representation (holds more democratic weight an influence) than a city dweller.

This is held over from our agricultural past, back when there was a larger rural population.

Over-representation of RURAL people is one of the largest problems with our current system. This isn't democratic and it's not fair to all citizens. We're tired of rural people determining the agenda, and screwing city people.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Actually, we give far too much voting power to sparsely populated rural areas. One person in a rural area has far more representation (holds more democratic weight an influence) than a city dweller.
> 
> This is held over from our agricultural past, back when there was a larger rural population.
> 
> Over-representation of RURAL people is one of the largest problems with our current system. This isn't democratic and it's not fair to all citizens. We're tired of rural people determining the agenda, and screwing city people.


Rural people aren't determining the agenda. As always, you make up staff without any backing.

"The diagram also shows why Canada's first-past-the-post electoral system delivered a more efficient outcome for the Liberals but not for the Conservatives. Conservative ridings were won with large margins, whereas Liberal ridings were mostly won with small margins. As a result, Liberals won more ridings than the Conservatives despite a slightly smaller share of the popular vote."

Look at 2019 election. Conservatives did better in popular vote, yet they got significantly less seats than Liberals.
It was because Liberal support is concentrated in the cities. The voters in the cities had much higher influence over who gets elected.

And of course you will come in population/riding as a counter-argument, that is predictable.
It is quite useless argument in FPTP because with 1 extra vote, you have 49.99999% of votes basically rendered useless so ridings that tend to be tighter (the ones in the cities) are the ones that decide who rules the country vs ridings where spread is 30-40%.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

damian13ster said:


> It was because Liberal support is concentrated in the cities. The voters in the cities had much higher influence over who gets elected.


No kidding. I always get a kick out of looking at our Ontario map on federal election nights and see almost the entire map painted blue except for a couple teeny weeny red dots that represent the few cities - and the result is that the red Liberals win.

How is that screwing city people? The city people should be rolling around the floor laughing at how all that mass of blue got screwed.

ltr


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Hearing lots of positive chatter about the PPC in Alberta over the past few days. Not in our riding, or our community-it is solid Blue. Daughter and SIL are well connected in Ft. Mac and do business in rural and northern AB and BC. It is all they hear. Could be the anti Kenney. Hearing similar noise from friends in some of the rural ridings near Calgary and from some Edmonton folks. Exasperation voting. Common theme is they will not vote Liberal, do not want O'Toole, it's a never for Singh...so PPC pops out as they pick.

It may well be that PPC support will be much higher than anticipated in some ridings...higher than the pundits are suggesting. It might make for some interesting results if the chatter is more than idle.

I still believe this is anyone's crown. It will be very interesting to see what happens if one party has less votes than the other but can get the support of another party to form a Government. Lots of wailing and knashing.

As far as urban vs rural I believe it makes much more difference at the provincial level than the federal level. . We in Alberta are suffering from exactly that with the UCP Party. It was the same when we lived in BC, in Ontario, and in Quebec. Lots of regional politics in those provinces when we lived in each. I was not the least bit surprised when I learned that Maxime Bernier was from the Beauce region in Quebec. It fits.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Actually, we give far too much voting power to sparsely populated rural areas. One person in a rural area has far more representation (holds more democratic weight an influence) than a city dweller.
> 
> This is held over from our agricultural past, back when there was a larger rural population.
> 
> Over-representation of RURAL people is one of the largest problems with our current system. This isn't democratic and it's not fair to all citizens. We're tired of rural people determining the agenda, and screwing city people.


Yeah, because federal dollars paying for city infrastructure happens in places other than Toronto and Montreal.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Based on the poll, I predict that the majority of the people on this forum will lose their election.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

What do you consider a win or a loss?

Popular vote?
Majority rule?
Most seats?
Get to have PM?

Greens getting absolutely pummeled.
Conservatives with major gains (10%+) in popular vote in Nova Scotia but won't translate into many seats


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> What do you consider a win or a loss?
> 
> Popular vote?
> Majority rule?
> ...


Win is most seats/PM, ideally majority.
Though it's a soft win if the party increases seat count.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yea, same on Garth Turner's blog. As it turns out.......it is a millionaires club according to his poll......and they almost all vote Conservative.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't like to be disappointed and angry.....so I voted for Trudeau.

I like being on the winning team and getting a trophy.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Most seats?


Most seats.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Oh yeah, then that is pretty much foregone conclusion.
This forum has people with above average knowledge in economy and finance so it would make sense why the results wouldn't be representative of the entire country.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

There you go. Radio-Canada already called it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trudeau has never lost an election, since his nomination as an MP in 2007.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Trudeau has never lost an election, since his nomination as an MP in 2007.


I thought he lost this one?

You didn't classify coalition government with 40%+ vote as a win and now you will classify minority government with <35% vote, not even the most of the parties, as a win?


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

sags said:


> Yea, same on Garth Turner's blog. As it turns out.......it is a millionaires club according to his poll......and they almost all vote Conservative.


They are the financially literate who vote for the CPC. Libs and NDP depend on the financially illiterate. The parallels here with who kept the socialists in power that destroyed my wife's country are not coincidental.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Yes, sure, Canada's biggest cities all vote Liberal, but big cities are financial illiterate, right? And anyways the world's best countries to live are all Liberal. Pretty happy of the election. Got the MP I wanted and got the PM I wanted.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Actually no. The world's best countries to live are centrist.
You have to realize that political spectrum looks different in Canada than you have in majority of places in the world.
By majority of countries' standards (including entire Europe and Australia), Conservatives are very left wing.
Just look at Singapore, Germany, UK, entire Scandinavia. They are all about where the Conservatives are or slightly to the right of them when it comes to platforms and policies.

Read official platforms of parties ruling in the countries you are referring to so you don't pull such statements out of your behind.

PPC accounted for about 15 seat swing.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Holy ****, good speech from O'Toole. If he made it 48 ago the results could have been slightly different. PPC easily cost 15 seats. Unfortunately it was unavoidable with move far into left wing


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> Yes, sure, Canada's biggest cities all vote Liberal, but big cities are financial illiterate, right? And anyways the world's best countries to live are all Liberal.


That's because the liberal mindset (using current terminology) generally is a movement towards progress and moving society forward. It naturally appeals to younger people and those who envisage a better future. It appeals to the optimistic.

The conservative mindset (in the US & Canadian context anyway) is more *regressive* by nature. It tries to halt, or at least delay progress. It does not seek new ideas but tries to maintain the status quo and old establishment. Naturally this cannot appeal to upwardly mobile, optimistic and successful young adults in the prime of their lives.

This is a generalization of course but these are underlying themes. It's especially clear on things like environmental policy and also trying to boost the status and power of disadvantaged people. Conservatives tend to either ignore it (couldn't care less about environmental protection) or be downright hostile towards the poor, minority groups, indigenous people, etc


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> That's because the liberal mindset (using current terminology) generally is a movement towards progress and moving society forward. It naturally appeals to younger people and those who envisage a better future. It appeals to the optimistic.
> 
> The conservative mindset (in the US & Canadian context anyway) is more *regressive* by nature. It tries to halt, or at least delay progress. It does not seek new ideas but tries to maintain the status quo and old establishment. Naturally this cannot appeal to upwardly mobile, optimistic and successful young adults in the prime of their lives.
> 
> This is a generalization of course but these are underlying themes. It's especially clear on things like environmental policy and also trying to boost the status and power of disadvantaged people. Conservatives tend to either ignore it (couldn't care less about environmental protection) or be downright hostile towards it.


Yet again, actual numbers don't support anything that you are saying.
Liberals had highest support in polls among 55+
A part of the country that is old enough to forget all the promises from previous elections.
Both NDP and Conservative had higher polling numbers among people under 30.
Conservative party is doing better among young people than Liberal Party.
Maybe young people realize that promising to decrease emissions by 45% in 15 years, and spending first 6 years of that period INCREASING emissions is not the way to go?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> That's because the liberal mindset (using current terminology) generally is a movement towards progress and moving society forward. It naturally appeals to younger people and those who envisage a better future. It appeals to the optimistic.
> 
> The conservative mindset (in the US & Canadian context anyway) is more *regressive* by nature. It tries to halt, or at least delay progress. It does not seek new ideas but tries to maintain the status quo and old establishment. Naturally this cannot appeal to upwardly mobile, optimistic and successful young adults in the prime of their lives.
> 
> This is a generalization of course but these are underlying themes. It's especially clear on things like environmental policy and also trying to boost the status and power of disadvantaged people. Conservatives tend to either ignore it (couldn't care less about environmental protection) or be downright hostile towards the poor, minority groups, indigenous people, etc


Sorry that's a misrepresentation.

The current left is giving more power and control to government.

The current right/conservative is about preserving the liberal principles of free speech and respect for individual rights and not ceding all power to government.

The problem is that human rights, and respect for individuals gets in the way of the larger government plans. Some of the greatest evils in history is when governments pursue their own goals, and ignore the rights of the people.

I think the reason young people look at authoritarianism and central control is they lack the understanding of the consequences and history of those.

Finally I think the left has coopted "progressive", they claimed the word, but they're not making progress for all, they often create plans that are deeply flawed. 
Lets take child care plans.
The left generally favours heavily subsidized government run institutional child care, this works for higher end jobs with a 9-4 work schedule. It totally fails shift workers, or those who start a bit earlier, as well as all the service jobs, restaurants etc. It also only helps those who are able to obtain spots, so there are winners and losers. 
The big winner is the middle/upper middle stable day job worker.
Those with precarious employment, and typically lower incomes lose.

The right supports direct subsidies to parents, maybe stay at home parent or relative, or home daycare. My parents ran a home daycare so kids could be dropped off at 6am. Daycare centers rarely open that early

It's not simply that the left/right care or don't care. I think that they have different understanding of how the world works. I think this is why the young less experienced people see the left as full of great ideas, and the older people notice the flaws. 

As far as the status quo, nobody is arguing for that. The problem is we have thousands of years of history building a relatively unique society that has been quite successful. Maybe show a bit of respect for the systems that give us such great lives. It took a long time and a lot of effort to get where we are, and throwing things away because you think you know better is the epitome of youthful arrogance.

I'm not saying things are perfect, but they're the best they've ever been in human history, so maybe as we consider how to improve things, we should also consider why they're so good, and make sure we preserve those aspects.
There are many young people who find the idea that things are good today laughable, which makes anyone with a clue shake their head.

I currently lean politically "conservative", but it's because I care more about fairness and disadvantaged people than the typical leftist or "progressive". Not because some of them don't care, but simply because their policies are flawed and won't actually help those people.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Just to clarify I'm not really Conservative, I'm really a Liberal/CPC.
The US left/rights are nuts.
In Canada we have lots more crazy lefts, but our main parties Lib/CPC are only about half crazy each, and it just matters who has the reigns, the reason they alternate power is every few years the grown ups are in charge, then the crazies take over and back and forth.
Typically Canadians do okay, and put a reasonable leader in charge but every now and then they get it wrong, ie Trudeaus shouldn't be running the country.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

I'd be curious if people here would do the Vote Compass.

I've did it twice and always end up in the same spot, which is right in the middle of the top left quadrant (which is progressive & left).

It says I agree around 65%-75 % with NDP, LPC, BQ, GPC, about 45%-50% with CPC and about 20% with PPC.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> I'd be curious if people here would do the Vote Compass.
> 
> I've did it twice and always end up in the same spot, which is right in the middle of the top left quadrant (which is progressive & left).
> 
> It says I agree around 65%-70% with NDP, LPC, BQ, about 55% with GPC, about 40% with PCC and about 20% with PPC.


Sometimes vote compass is correct, sometimes it's incorrect.

They do have a strong Liberal bias in how they intepret questions. For example they typically conflate climate change with environment, or gun restrictions with addressing gun crime.
Taking away hunting rifles won't reduce handgun shootings in Toronto.

This year they're pretty good, though I'm not sure which party is against housing affordability.

To be fair, political views don't necessarily align with reality, for example pipelines are considered "anti climate change/anti environment", even if the actual impact is reduced emissions, and less environmental damage.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Sometimes vote compass is correct, sometimes it's incorrect.
> 
> They do have a strong Liberal bias in how they intepret questions. For example they typically conflate climate change with environment, or gun restrictions with addressing gun crime.
> Taking away hunting rifles won't reduce handgun shootings in Toronto.
> ...


(I've edited my previous post with I believe to be my most average result)

I'd have to check the methodology. I'm pretty sure we don't want such tool to bias the voting decision for those who don't have a strong political opinion and just rely on such tool. I hope that tool is built on such way that it makes sense _statistically _in order to remove biases.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> (I've edited my previous post with I believe to be my most average result)
> 
> I'd have to check the methodology. I'm pretty sure we don't want such tool to bias the voting decision for those who don't have a strong political opinion and just rely on such tool. I hope that tool is built on such way that it makes sense _statistically _in order to remove biases.


Previous years it had a pretty ridiculous Liberal bias built in, though it seems to be a bit better.
At least now if you click "don't know" on everything it doesn't offer a recommendation to vote Red.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

james4beach said:


> That's because the liberal mindset (using current terminology) generally is a movement towards progress and moving society forward. It naturally appeals to younger people and those who envisage a better future. It appeals to the optimistic.
> 
> The conservative mindset (in the US & Canadian context anyway) is more *regressive* by nature. It tries to halt, or at least delay progress. It does not seek new ideas but tries to maintain the status quo and old establishment. Naturally this cannot appeal to upwardly mobile, optimistic and successful young adults in the prime of their lives.
> 
> This is a generalization of course but these are underlying themes. It's especially clear on things like environmental policy and also trying to boost the status and power of disadvantaged people. Conservatives tend to either ignore it (couldn't care less about environmental protection) or be downright hostile towards the poor, minority groups, indigenous people, etc


The words progressive and regressive requires the notion of a goal. Your moving step by step towards something or away from something. Although Liberals and Conservative 'claim' to be progressive. I believe both are regressive. For me progressive means as a citizen I can proceed with my dreams without interference other than respecting others who want to proceed with their dreams Hence, to be progressive: 


moving the population to support itself, rather than infantilizing them
making most government superfluous to the population's needs
provide a safe environment to complete the above

None of the parties have this goal. They are all in the business of staying in business....


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

afulldeck said:


> The words progressive and regressive requires the notion of a goal.


Their goal is complete government control of society, because they think that will be better.
Despite it being worse for almost all of recorded history.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I had several reasons why I should not vote Liberal. O'Toole gave me no reasons why I should vote Conservative. That was my first conundrum. 

My second was bench strength. I did not see it on O'Toole's team and he made no effort to put any on display for me. 

Michelle Rempel and Pierre Polievre don't do it for me. The heavy hitters on team Blue were not running in the election. Have to ask myself why they did not.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It will be interesting to see if O'Toole is allowed to stay and try to move the Conservative Party closer to the center and away from the issues that repel voters.

Or will he be removed and replaced because he tried to move the party to the middle. It will be interesting to watch the internal politics.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> It will be interesting to see if O'Toole is allowed to stay and try to move the Conservative Party closer to the center and away from the issues that repel voters.
> 
> Or will he be removed and replaced because he tried to move the party to the middle. It will be interesting to watch the internal politics.


What issues repel voters?
They are artificial wedge issues.

The gun crime in Toronto has nothing to do with hunting rifles, but Trudeau loves to play on ignorance.
Beyond that there isn't much difference, except the right leans stronger for equality and human rights, while the left leans to more government control.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Previous years it had a pretty ridiculous Liberal bias built in, though it seems to be a bit better.
> At least now if you click "don't know" on everything it doesn't offer a recommendation to vote Red.


Yes if you go through their weighting criteria, you really see what is behind the questions and cannot represent what you think. They are like the proverbial question: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Yes/No


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Yes if you go through their weighting criteria, you really see what is behind the questions and cannot represent what you think. They are like the proverbial question: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Yes/No


Of course not... I'm way better at Euchre.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Conservatives got 300K more popular votes then Liberals and much less seats .... PPC got much more votes than Greens and got no seats!

Election system is completely corrupted!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

What you call "wedge issues", are serious top of mind issues for many Canadians.

Gun control, climate change, abortion rights, social supports, OAS, are not exactly "fluff" issues to them.

The problem for Conservatives is that they are on the wrong side of key issues from most Canadians, but have convinced themselves they can change the minds of the majority if they just keep trying long enough.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> What you call "wedge issues", are serious top of mind issues for many Canadians.
> 
> Gun control, climate change, abortion rights, social supports, OAS, are not exactly "fluff" issues to them.
> 
> The problem for Conservatives is that they are on the wrong side of key issues from most Canadians, but have convinced themselves they can change their minds.


How is your math?! Do you realize that Cons got 300k more popular vote than Libs?!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Conservatives got 300K more popular votes then Liberals and much less seats .... PPC got much more votes than Greens and got no seats!
> 
> Election system is completely corrupted!


Yea, but add all the left leaning parties together in popular vote and they have 70% of the vote. Even the BLOC is a left leaning party.

If there were only 2 parties in Canada like in the US.....Democrats and Republicans, the Democrats would win a majority government in every election.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Yea, but add all the left leaning parties together in popular vote and they have 70% of the vote. Even the BLOC is a left leaning party.
> 
> If there were only 2 parties in Canada like in the US.....Democrats and Republicans, the Democrats would win a majority government in every election.


This is all speculations! I know some people who voted NDP just because they hate Trudeau and would never vote for him. 
BQ is not left party, they preferred coalition with Conservatives. 
If there ere democratic PR list election system, I’m not sure at all that Liberals would be able to firm coalition... and with PR list system. LPC would likely split apart


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> What you call "wedge issues", are serious top of mind issues for many Canadians.
> 
> Gun control, climate change, abortion rights, social supports, OAS, are not exactly "fluff" issues to them.
> 
> The problem for Conservatives is that they are on the wrong side of key issues from most Canadians, but have convinced themselves they can change the minds of the majority if they just keep trying long enough.


But the Liberals aren't for gun control anyway.
Everyone is on board with some sort of climate change action, the difference is that the anti-pipeline stop now plan is making climate change worse, not better.
When you replace a relatively clean natural gas plant in Ontario with a Coal plant in China, you're not coming out ahead.

Everyone is okay with abortion. O'Toole was the only leader out there not wanting to regulate womens bodies, and somehow everyone missed that.
Social supports, like what child care? I can tell you center based care doesn't work for poor people.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> This is all speculations! I know some people who voted NDP just because they hate Trudeau and would never vote for him.
> BQ is not left party, they preferred coalition with Conservatives.
> If there ere democratic PR list election system, I’m not sure at all that Liberals would be able to firm coalition... and with PR list system. LPC would likely split apart


I actually think if the major parties split apart, it would be better. It would stop stupid poorly vetted and thought out government programs.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I actually think if the major parties split apart, it would be better. It would stop stupid poorly vetted and thought out government programs.


I agree! If major parties got split, we will be able to vote for party we like, and not for party we dislike less. And Our votes won’t go directly to garbage


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Social supports, like what child care? I can tell you center based care doesn't work for poor people.


My DIL ran a child care center and it focused on teaching the kids, not babysitting. She eventually closed it after her own kids were beyond the ages of childcare. My other son shared a nanny with their neighbour, both with 2 kids each.

They were against the $10 programs because it would encourage large babysitting operations like Quebec.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> My DIL ran a child care center and it focused on teaching the kids, not babysitting. She eventually closed it after her own kids were beyond the ages of childcare. My other son shared a nanny with their neighbour, both with 2 kids each.
> 
> They were against the $10 programs because it would encourage large babysitting operations like Quebec.


You mean the ones where the care providers occasionally kill kids?

Oh and they only work office hours, you work at Tims, or a manufacturing plant, or a restaurant.. too bad, no daycare for you.

We were lucky to get a good daycare, but that was only because we could shift our hours to accomodate them.
Also daycare costs $50+/day just for the most basic aspects of care, pretending it is only $10 devalues the work of the women providing the care.

But what do you expect from those who don't value women?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I suppose our hope is that the province will take the $10 and implement something good for extra cost?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> I suppose our hope is that the province will take the $10 and implement something good for extra cost?


To make a $10/day space, the government has to subsidze each one by at least $50+/day
That's assuming the center is full.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

DIL used to offer an ancilliary service where she would take the kids at 7am and get them the school by 9am and same at the other end, pick them up at 330pm and hold them till the parents arrived at 7pm. These were kids that had been in her all day day care until school age.


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