# Question for experienced landlords



## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

I recently bought a rental property under very unconventional circumstances:

1. Wasn't able to inspect the property prior to purchasing
2. already had a tenant that needed to move in ASAP
3. no mortgages involved (used a non secure loan)

all in all I bought a property that was pretty much turn key ready, however before I could fix everything up before having a tenant occupy it there were some fixes that needed to be addressed(broken window, double pane but outside window smashed but inside still intact).

I was planning on fixing it but was thinking next summer(as i didn't have the time/resources to take care of it now), however before i could even get started my tenant fixed my window with his father. Now there was nothing in the lease agreement about doing renovations as a renter and it being taken off the rent, and my tenant went and fixed the window without my permission. 

is there any legal obligations to pay back my tenant for the repairs him and his father made, in the event those expenses are claimed by the tenant?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Why are you complaining? He saved you money, fixed a problem, and didn’t complain. Sounds like a good tenant you should keep happy. Ask him for a receipt, claim the expense and move on.

The flip side is, he could have reported you to the health inspector, you’d could face fines or at least get on their watch list because you didn’t fix the problem in a timely manor, especially over winter.


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

Def not complaining, my tenant is a coworker who I actually cut a deal for his lease, I ended charging him less than what was advertised and held the place empty for about a month for him while he got his finances and life organized(split up with his common law)

My original question should have been, do i legally need to pay him back?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I would, I don’t even know why you’d ask. He didn’t break it, if he had you may have a case.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

baconbit said:


> Def not complaining, my tenant is a coworker who I actually cut a deal for his lease, I ended charging him less than what was advertised and held the place empty for about a month for him while he got his finances and life organized(split up with his common law)
> 
> My original question should have been, do i legally need to pay him back?


 I would pay him back & if the deal is getting paid cash for rent would be crazy to not to pay him back


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

lonewolf :) said:


> I would pay him back & if the deal is getting paid cash for rent would be crazy to not to pay him back


monthly automatic e-transfer



Just a Guy said:


> I would, I don’t even know why you’d ask. He didn’t break it, if he had you may have a case.


True, but I think he fixed it due to his OCD tendencies(would have been fine for a winter, I have a similar situation in my home and its going 2 winters strong). Anyways, I said thank you to him and he didn't say anything after....


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Your opinion of what’s acceptable and health services opinion of what’s acceptable you may find is different. Personally, I’m not sure you’ve got the right attitude to be a successful landlord. Your coming across as one which my tenants would tell many stories about...and none of them good. 

Something tells me you overpaid and your cash flow isn’t that good. Otherwise this wouldn’t even occur to people. R property, it was broken before the tenant moved in, it’s your maintenance issue. You should try to take pride in your property so you keep good tenants. Delayed maintenance is for slum landlords. 

Any issues I have are fixed right away. Each new tenant gets as near to new a place as I can get it.


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

Just a Guy said:


> Your opinion of what’s acceptable and health services opinion of what’s acceptable you may find is different. Personally, I’m not sure you’ve got the right attitude to be a successful landlord. Your coming across as one which my tenants would tell many stories about...and none of them good.
> 
> Something tells me you overpaid and your cash flow isn’t that good. Otherwise this wouldn’t even occur to people. R property, it was broken before the tenant moved in, it’s your maintenance issue. You should try to take pride in your property so you keep good tenants. Delayed maintenance is for slum landlords.
> 
> Any issues I have are fixed right away. Each new tenant gets as near to new a place as I can get it.


look boyo, you are jumping to a lot of conclusions. Excuse my ignorance as I've never heard of this health service thing.

considering I bought the land and property for <$50K and am charging $750 a month I think my cash flow is fine. I bought this property as a spur of the moment thing, the opportunity presented itself and i took it in September, from where it was when i first took ownership to where its at now is a significant difference much greater than a window.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’m just telling you how you come across. I’m not jumping to conclusions. 

Just because you don’t know about things like health services, doesn’t mean their rules don’t apply to you. 

You seem to have avoided the original question I pointed out, why is this even an issue? I doubt many “experienced” landlords, as you’ve asked for, would even have considered your alternative. I’m trying to figure out why you did.

You May find this educational...

https://www.landlordandtenant.org/repairs/minumum-housing-and-health-standards/


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

It's not an issue, I am just curious for myself had we have some disagreement in the future(doubtful) but the original scenario got me thinking what if. 

glad I could at least correct you on your over paid low cash flow theory though m8


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Basic rule is if it’s caused by the tenant, the tenant pays. If it’s not caused by the tenant, or is maintenance, you pay it.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

baconbit said:


> Def not complaining, my tenant is a coworker who I actually cut a deal for his lease, I ended charging him less than what was advertised and held the place empty for about a month for him while he got his finances and life organized(split up with his common law)
> 
> My original question should have been, do i legally need to pay him back?


bb, your original question was framed in perfectly clear language, but understand that JAG needed to give you a sermon, to tell you that you won't make it as a landlord while, at the same time, ducking your question (then blaming you for avoiding the question).

The short and clear answer to your question is "no". You have no legal obligation. Even if the tenant acted on your request. Without some consideration (for example, an offer of payment in exchange) there would be no contract, only what lawyers (JAG hates lawyers) would call a _nudum pactum_. This was simply a case where the tenant acted unilaterally and you cannot be legally bound in such case.

Is there a moral obligation? Maybe. But I would think any moral claim would be of a low order, given that you are charging (here I am inferring from your "less than advertised" comment) a below market rent and you held the place for a month. 

As for raising the spectre of "health services", seems a bit silly in the case of a sole double-glazed window becoming, in effect, single-pane window. It does not sound like a big deal, unless the window is huge and there might be a noticeable effect on keeping the house warm, or the cost of doing so. As well, if the window was an issue, I would expect it to be discussed and dealt with between reasonable parties without one side calling in government assistance. In another life, I worked for a landlord/tenant tribunal. We recognized that very, very few landlords or tenants ever came before us. Most worked matters out for themselves. The common view was that only the "lunatic fringe" would ever be seen in our halls.

I do not own the hundreds of properties JAG owns, but I have some experience. I have owned, continuously since 1976, at least one rental property. The most was about 7 at one time, some with 5 suites or so. I have never had a bad tenant (good landlords know how to avoid them) and I have never had to deal with the courts, a tribunal or any government agency in dealing with tenants. 

On this forum (and elsewhere) I do not say a whole lot about the business of being a landlord, because my approach is so different. For example, awhile back, a cmfer wrote:

_I tend to think that if rebuilding a toilet sounds like a difficult task, you shouldn't get into R-E. A landlord should be able to rebuild a toilet in 15 minutes. A plumber can do it for about $450. lol! I can do it for $35 bucks and three parts.

It's not that the toilet is some magic right of passage but, to make money, you will need to knock off some of the easier jobs yourself. It might be OK if you have children who are interested in it._

I believe the above passage pretty much is taken as gospel by those here who are landlords. To me, it is not the right way to look at it.

f you’re a reasonably capable, smart person who is interested in real estate, you can make a lot of money. But you don’t make it by hiring yourself as a second-rate handyman. You do it by learning about the business, looking for a building to buy, and then doing the hard work necessary to buy it.

Then, when something breaks at the building, you hire someone to fix it. Maybe the first time you overpay or hire someone who does a bad job. So what? The next time you’re smarter. Slowly, over time, you learn who does good work and charges a fair price.

And while the people you pay are doing a decent job maintaining your building, you’re spending your valuable time figuring out how to get the capital together to buy your next building and the one after that. It’s about curiosity and educating yourself and being organized and being willing to tolerate a little risk.

It’s not about fixing toilets. If it were, I’d be sunk.

Anyway bb, I'll turn it back over to JAG to finish up and ream me out in the process. I am not active here any longer. I have made a couple of posts today just for hellery. I'll look back on cmf, perhaps in the new year, to browse through the happenings, sniping, cheap shots, ill humour and all the rest that are its hallmarks.

Today, I was advised here to simply chant the mantra "sticks and stones". I'd prefer not to be here in the first place. I have only so much time I care to give over to participating in forums and for me, this one is by a good measure the least enjoyable. Maybe forums like this attract a lot of big egos, who feel the need to establish a pecking order and place themselves at the top. The big peckers then seek to disparage and oust the little peckers. All good clean fun, I suppose. But not my thing.


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

Very good points MP, I asked him how much it cost for the windows and he said $130, so if he asks me to reimburse him I will but I highly doubt he will. 

I don't take JAG to serious as he is in oblivious to jumping to conclusions swifter than the speed of 1000 angry feminist as seen in post #2. When he assumed i was complaining. 

just lol


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Interesting contradiction in your philosophy Muk, on one hand you talk about not going cheap, hiring professionals, don’t do it yourself to save money and, without blinking later advise not to compensate a good tenant, potentially making them unhappy...

Of course, you also talk about me owning hundreds of properties, making things up as usual. 

Finally I love your maybe there is a moral obligation...guess that kind of state that explains why lawyers have such bad reputations...

I did actually post a link to Alberta health services which states in the first section how windows can’t be cracked, but I guess rules don’t really apply and I’m just making things up as usual. I’ve bought into building where health services has been involved, it takes a lot of work to clear up issues, but what would I know in the face of this other expertise. 

Do what you want baconbit, I offered you real world advice, based on real world expertise (something Muk admits to not having to deal with because he’s the perfect landlord with a secret system) your free to ignore me.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Just where did I advise not to compensate? I did not advise on that matter one way or another. The OP asked a simple question about whether a legal obligation existed. I gave him a straight answer. I did not venture to say whether he should pay the tenant anything or not. I did not say what I would do in like situation. The OP did not ask.

I stand by what I said as to a moral obligation. On the facts presented, it is not a heavy one. The OP gave up on a month's rent to hold the place available and then discounted the rent. If anything, the moral obligation is on the tenant to do a good deed in return. I am guessing that is why the tenant simply went ahead and fixed the window himself. He was grateful for some concessions by the L/L and decided to spare the L/L from having to deal with the small matter of the window. 

As for the cracked window, yes, I read that on the link you provided. Nonetheless, as i said, I think most landlords and tenants would see it as a trivial matter and it would be attended to without calling in a government body. Is that how you deal with your tenants? Do you invoke the strict letter of the law at the drop of a hat? Now you're coming across as one which my tenants would tell many stories about...and none of them good.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I was warning him of a possibility. You seem to have missed the part where I wouldn’t even consider not fixing the window, doesn’t read like someone reporting tenants all the time, it as usual you’ve got selective reading as usual. I did point out that the tenant could make a stink...I’ve known landlords who’ve run into this and been faced with fines and compensating tenants (not for a window per se, but for damaged units). In one case, it was a “nice little old lady” who destroyed her bathroom, called health services and blamed the landlord. The landlord had to rehouse her, she tried the trick again, but my buddy had shown the place to the health board before The tenant moved in and, when she trashed it again for more compensation, he had the proof it was her. Of course, she’d never have gotten past Muk’s Super secret screening techniques, he’s never had to deal with a bad tenant...so has no real experience to warn you about possibilities you May encounter when just starting out. 

Sorry about misunderstanding your implication...to me when you say there is no legal reason and a weak moral one, I didn’t get the impression you agree with compensation...

Anyways, I’ll leave it at this, you’ve already baited me more than I wanted..


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> I'll look back on cmf, perhaps in the new year, to browse through the happenings, sniping, cheap shots, ill humour and all the rest that are its hallmarks...


Yes we are well aware of this aspect of CMF. It seems that the moderation is too easy going not wishing to keep the childish banter in check with warnings, even slow to deal with blatant violations. Some people just have to be right even though it is clear that they are just displaying narcissistic traits.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If there are units selling for less than $50,000 why are working people living in their cars ?

The government or coops should scoop up all these bargains and rent them as geared to income units.

It would be a lot cheaper than building and maintaining large housing projects that turn into slums.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

When does the government ever do things that are intelligent or efficient? As for why don’t the homeless buy then, we’ll its obvious that the banks won’t fund a homeless person. Heck, I’m currently in the process of trying to finance my last 5 purchases (all currently classified as clear title, we’ll i haven’t technically closed on the last 3 until the 15th either) and running into trouble, not because of my finances, but rather because of stupid rules that have been implemented to “protect” the public from debt.


For years I’ve had to battle stupid things like the banks considering a single unit the same as owning a building when it comes to the limits of lending based on number of units held. So a 65k two bedroom counts the same as a 20 unit apartment building in that criteria. Oh well, eventually I find a way to work around it and get the financing, but it takes a lot of work, something the homeless don’t understand...they get told no, they don’t qualify, and give up. 

Next, it would probably cost the government more to manage a 50k apartment each year than the initial purchase price. A better idea would be for people to pick up these properties and rent them out to the homeless...why not step up sags? I know guys who do this specifically. Find out just how good your poor , unfortunate souls are at maintaining your investments...may open your eye a bit to reality.


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

sags said:


> If there are units selling for less than $50,000 why are working people living in their cars ?
> 
> The government or coops should scoop up all these bargains and rent them as geared to income units.
> 
> It would be a lot cheaper than building and maintaining large housing projects that turn into slums.


I bought this unit as a private sale between me and the seller. Pretty sure I was just extremely lucky that the previous owner wanted to really motivate me into buying the property that was next door to my current home. 



Just a Guy said:


> When does the government ever do things that are intelligent or efficient? As for why don’t the homeless buy then, we’ll its obvious that the banks won’t fund a homeless person. Heck, I’m currently in the process of trying to finance my last 5 purchases (all currently classified as clear title, we’ll i haven’t technically closed on the last 3 until the 15th either) and running into trouble, not because of my finances, but rather because of stupid rules that have been implemented to “protect” the public from debt.
> 
> 
> For years I’ve had to battle stupid things like the banks considering a single unit the same as owning a building when it comes to the limits of lending based on number of units held. So a 65k two bedroom counts the same as a 20 unit apartment building in that criteria. Oh well, eventually I find a way to work around it and get the financing, but it takes a lot of work, something the homeless don’t understand...they get told no, they don’t qualify, and give up.
> ...


I didn't have much trouble getting a non secured loan from the bank to purchase said property. However If I wasn't already a land owner, i am sure getting that non secure loan would have been much more difficult.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Homeless only means people don't have a place to live. It doesn't mean they are unemployed or poor.

There was a story about a television reporter who became homeless when her unit was sold and she couldn't find anything she could afford to rent.

A homeless person who works and earns a decent income could afford a $50,000 mortgage. The government could guarantee the loan through CMHC.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There was a story in the news years ago about Alberta's Premier Ralph Klein.

Apparently Ralph had a drinking problem and one night he arrived at a homeless shelter in Edmonton and started yelling at people to "get off their *** and get a job".

When the staff informed him that most of the people there had a job but couldn't find or afford a place to live, it became a headline news story.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...d-by-ralph-kleins-slurred-rant/article588988/


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Properties are there sags, you explain why they don’t buy. I gave you a reason. Of course they’d also need a down payment...

There are ways to get both of these, but people still don’t. I guess you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. 

I’ve been buying places like these for years, well maybe not that cheap, but at least I’m doing something and helping out some people. Why not try it yourself instead of getting government involved? You’d even profit (yes I know evil word, you may have to pay more taxes and actually stop demanding handouts) from it.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

baconbit said:


> I bought this unit as a private sale between me and the seller. Pretty sure I was just extremely lucky that the previous owner wanted to really motivate me into buying the property that was next door to my current home.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't have much trouble getting a non secured loan from the bank to purchase said property. However If I wasn't already a land owner, i am sure getting that non secure loan would have been much more difficult.



Things change when you start getting into a large number of holdings, especially when you want to have low interest rates.


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

Just a Guy said:


> Things change when you start getting into a large number of holdings, especially when you want to have *low interest rates.*



guess it depends on your adversity level to risk, but there are ways you can finance real estate with 0% interest.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

baconbit said:


> is there any legal obligations to pay back my tenant for the repairs him and his father made, in the event those expenses are claimed by the tenant?


In another post you said the window was $130...that's not really out of line. But, they had no idea that you hadn't already bought a window or had one lying around ready to install.

I'd probably reimburse them the $130 this one time only. However, I would be very specific in telling the tenant that they are not allowed to do any renovations or repairs without your permission FIRST. It's not their place to decide how and in what manner your property will be fixed just like you wouldn't presume to take their car in for repairs.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

To answer the original question - if you are smart you will reimburse the tenant for his repair expenses and buy him a nice present besides. I am not kidding. If you have been in the rental business for very long you will know that a tenant like that is a rare gem and needs to be encouraged.

If I have a good tenant that handles his own minor repairs, doesn't trash the place and pays the rent promptly I always send a nice Christmas card thanking him for taking such good care of his home and including a $50 Tim Horton's gift card.

Reimburse the tenant and thank him, but remind him to get your approval of any repairs or improvement he wants to do and you will pay him. He needs to know that you will back him up on any necessary repairs but this is not a blank check.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I read in a book where the author used to send them a Home Depot card at Xmas. Often the tenant would use the card to make improvements to the property so it was a win win gift.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I think you should pay him the $130 ,it will make him feel good and keep the relationship solid.Never cheap out on good tenants.I got out of the landlord business and no regrets ,any real estate we own is for our own use.


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

marina628 said:


> I think you should pay him the $130 ,it will make him feel good and keep the relationship solid.Never cheap out on good tenants.I got out of the landlord business and no regrets ,any real estate we own is for our own use.





Just a Guy said:


> I read in a book where the author used to send them a Home Depot card at Xmas. Often the tenant would use the card to make improvements to the property so it was a win win gift.





Rusty O'Toole said:


> To answer the original question - if you are smart you will reimburse the tenant for his repair expenses and buy him a nice present besides. I am not kidding. If you have been in the rental business for very long you will know that a tenant like that is a rare gem and needs to be encouraged.
> 
> If I have a good tenant that handles his own minor repairs, doesn't trash the place and pays the rent promptly I always send a nice Christmas card thanking him for taking such good care of his home and including a $50 Tim Horton's gift card.
> 
> Reimburse the tenant and thank him, but remind him to get your approval of any repairs or improvement he wants to do and you will pay him. He needs to know that you will back him up on any necessary repairs but this is not a blank check.



great idea about the card guys, def gonna get him a gift card of 50 bucks from Canadian Tire!

and yes he is a really good tenant and says he plans to stay for a few years, he did disclose he was gonna do more renos, but at his own costs too which is really kind of him. He joked around saying that by the time he leaves my place will be much nicer. So i def need to give him solid incentive to stay. 

The costs of the window was deducted from what he had to owe me for the damage deposit, so we all won.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

baconbit said:


> great idea about the card guys, def gonna get him a gift card of 50 bucks from Canadian Tire!
> 
> 
> 
> The costs of the window was deducted from what he had to owe me for the damage deposit, so we all won.


Damage deposits are illegal here in Ontario not sure what laws are in your province...


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## baconbit (Oct 18, 2017)

1 month rent is usually the damage deposit


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

baconbit said:


> 1 month rent is usually the damage deposit


1 month rent is pretty standard as damage deposit in AB. I believe it can't be more than that though. Definitely legal here.


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