# Thoughts on Electric Cars



## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Okay, so the new Nissan Leaf is coming out in 2011/2012. (I'm not even semi-contemplating the Chevy Volt, which is more expensive ...)

It runs about 100 miles (but probably less if it's cold or you require an air conditioner). So let's say 70 miles (or 110 kilometers). That's more than enough for anything I would do.

It's going to come out at probably around $28 K (after the government rebates) + taxes and freight. So let's just call it $32 K. The advantage is with no engine, there's no maintenance fees, and no gas! (which means no more mornings at the dealers waiting for my oil to be changed, etc.) But you do have to plug it in for it to recharge.

I would just drive it around Toronto. So on gas and maintenance alone, I'm probably saving $4 K per year (being conservative). 

Any other pros and cons I should consider?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

As long as you have another car for extended trips, then no. It makes a lot of sense.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

There will be maintenance required. Any object with moving parts requires maintenance. It may not be the SAME as with a gas engine, but there will still be costs and work to be done. Brakes, tires, windows, accidents, suspension, transmission, dead/defective/worn batteries, cables and connectors etc.

Anyway, my bigger concern with these is with the electricity supply. Sure from a user's perspective what a great idea, just plug in and go. But from my years living down east I know that ON has a severe supply power shortage - everytime it's hot out in the summer and people are running their ac, the Premier is on the news telling people to turn down the ac. What a joke. Remember the blackout in 2003? Although the cause was not ON's electricity supply, how will you get around during extended power outages and brownouts? At least gas tanks are large enough to allow you to get around without filling up immediately.

I would honestly feel more confident about owning one of these cars if I was living in a place with a trustworthy electricity supply for now and in the future. And if I didn't have to have a second gas car for longer trips that I often take. Many GTA commutes are several hours long each day!


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## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

I've got pages and pages of stuff written on hybrids and electrics, but to try to keep it brief:
*
Pros: *Energy independence if energy costs soar (you can make your own electricity from solar panels if it came to it, but making your own gas -- even biodiesel -- is hard).

Cost per km is low -- electricity is not free, but it's a lot cheaper than gasoline. Note that in Toronto you'll very much want to time your charging for off-peak periods (with TOU metering).

No idling when stuck in traffic. A gas car's range is almost better expressed in units of time than distance: you can go e.g. 7 hours on a tank, whether that works out to 700 km on the highway or 250 km in city traffic. An electric car has a fairly flat efficiency curve, so you can get your range at almost any speed. Note, however, that in severe weather, your heater and AC can reduce your range far faster than you may be used to in a gas car. And all my driving in Toronto shows me that there is a lot of idling to be had.

A great many external environmental benefits (no local pollution, less total pollution, less noise, no oil changes, etc). 

As you mentioned, less regular maintenance.

Charge from home, no need to drive to a separate special "gas store" (give it a few years, it'll seem like a really archaic concept, like finding a pay-phone booth if you wanted to make a call at the mall).

Quiet ride: there's nothing like not having the buzz of a gas engine while you drive. After just a few months with the Prius, even the most upscale german automobile seems so _uncivilized _when it just leaves the engine running at stop lights.

Predicted reliability is high (electric everything -- no pesky belts, water pumps, etc).

No more driveclean tests for you!

*
Cons: *direct up-front costs are higher. Lifetime costs may likely be higher (I haven't run an analysis for the Leaf yet) depending on what car you compare it to. The Leaf is a compact IIRC, and compacts are nowhere near $36k. You could get a Prius for ~$30k and get halfway there in terms of emissions and efficiency, and a larger car to boot (with over a decade of on-road experience too).

Range anxiety - if the household is going to have a second car available for road trips, then this becomes pretty much a non-issue, but range anxiety does exist for a lot of people, even if their typical daily drive is only a fraction of the available range.

*Uncertainty* - first model year cars are always a bit of a mixed bag, and this is a lot more than just the latest redesign for Nissan. It's also the first commercial use of lithium manganate batteries. NiMH cells have very good track records (the California/Arizona Rav4EVs are still going strong), but lithium's going to have question marks hanging over it until it proves itself.

On top of that you're going to have uncertainty about taxation: right now a portion of the taxes on gas go towards road maintenance. Some politicians in other regions have noticed that electric cars don't buy gas, and are trying to tax them for road usage in other ways.

Resale value is going to be a mystery as well. Plan for it to be worse (if a buyer can be found at all).

I don't know if it's a pro or con for you, but people will come up to you and ask you about it. If they listen to "certain" "news" sources, they may even try to tell you about how your car is secretly bad for the environment (or how CO2 & global warming is good for it) and that you should have bought a hummer.

Not sure if it will be a pro or a con for you: the split-level instrument layout is somewhat unique, like the current-gen Civic. You'll either love it or hate it.


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## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Anyway, my bigger concern with these is with the electricity supply. Sure from a user's perspective what a great idea, just plug in and go. But from my years living down east I know that ON has a severe supply power shortage - everytime it's hot out in the summer and people are running their ac, the Premier is on the news telling people to turn down the ac. What a joke. Remember the blackout in 2003? Although the cause was not ON's electricity supply, how will you get around during extended power outages and brownouts? At least gas tanks are large enough to allow you to get around without filling up immediately.


Well, ideally you do your charging at night, when the pressure comes off the grid. This is one of the other societal benefits of electric cars: off-peak charging helps to level out the power consumption through the day, which makes it easier to plan upgrades, and allowing more baseload sources to be built.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Anyway, my bigger concern with these is with the electricity supply. Sure from a user's perspective what a great idea, just plug in and go. But from my years living down east I know that ON has a severe supply power shortage - everytime it's hot out in the summer and people are running their ac, the Premier is on the news telling people to turn down the ac. What a joke. Remember the blackout in 2003? Although the cause was not ON's electricity supply, how will you get around during extended power outages and brownouts? At least gas tanks are large enough to allow you to get around without filling up immediately.
> 
> I would honestly feel more confident about owning one of these cars if I was living in a place with a trustworthy electricity supply for now and in the future.


You are spot on!
Given the direction the OPA is taking in future electricity generation, distribution and associated costs, just wait and see how much we end up paying for electricity.
The process is already underway....our hydro bill has increased at least 10% since last few years while consumption is mostly range-bound.
Of course, the time-of-use rules and the HST plays part of that.

Once OPA gets its way and all's said & done, our hydro costs are all set to to go thru the roof and into the stratosphere.
Far from buying electric cars, people might start replacing their fans and A/Cs with gasoline-powered generators.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

I've been looking at "total cost of ownership" stats on cars. There is no data for the Leaf yet. But they have some TCO data at:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/intro.do

TCO includes depreciation, fuel cost, repairs, mainteance, insurance, etc. They are US data, but here's some data for the Honda Fit, Honda Insight, and Toyota Prius, for comparison's sake.

Honda Civic - $33.0 (TCO)
Honda Fit - $33.3k (TCO)
Honda Insight - $34.3 (TCO)
Toyota Prius - $37.1 (TCO)

All prices are for base model auto transmission. There's no data on totally electric vehicles yet, but the numbers suggest that hybrids do not make sense on a cost basis. (where externalities like pollution, carbon emissions, and karma are not counted towards TCO)


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## Elbyron (Apr 3, 2009)

What about battery life? Nissan claims that it will have 70 - 80% capacity after 10 years. That's pretty good, even for lithium batteries. But this means that your max range is going to down slightly each year! This will also reduce the resale value, since replacing the battery pack costs around $9000 (today's price... but it may go down in the future). On the other hand, improvements in lithium technology over the next 10 years may result in new batteries that can extend the range much further.

As for the lifespan of the other parts, I'm encouraged by the fact that my 9 year old Nissan Sentra is still running smoothly. They have built a strong reputation for quality and reliability. Even though the Leaf will have many new parts, as long as they stick with their high quality standards, the Leaf will enjoy a long low-maintenance life.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Here's a good article on both cars:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ms-volt-priced-at-hefty-41000/article1653448/


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Potato: 

Thanks for that summary. It's extremely helpful. I don't have that far to drive to work. It's 15 minutes with no traffic, 45 minutes with rush hour traffic. So my commute is 10 km each way. Plus it's great for local traffic, short run errands.

The costs have to take into account a $8500 credit that Ontario is giving the LEAF. And the cost is going to be around $32K in the US. Which should put it in the $36K range in Canada, so I'm going to say it's a conservative $28 K at the start. If it's less, great!

Thank you for your thoughts. 

One of the things I will do is to build solar electricity on my roof, to ensure some degree of electricity on a daily basis, so as to reduce my solar power on the grid. It may require thought to buy a back up generator in case of power shortages. 

But there's always a second car (gasoline based) to back it up.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> You are spot on!
> Given the direction the OPA is taking in future electricity generation, distribution and associated costs, just wait and see how much we end up paying for electricity.
> The process is already underway....our hydro bill has increased at least 10% since last few years while consumption is mostly range-bound.
> Of course, the time-of-use rules and the HST plays part of that.
> ...


Not a chance in hell. A home gasoline generator is making electricity at costs upwards of 30 or 40 cents a kWh.

Ontario hydro rates are lower than average. California, for instance, charges over 10 cents per kWh. Electricity is still dirt cheap.

Raising hydro rates can help spur conservation and offset the need for new generation infrastructure. Time of Use spreads demand so we have a better utilization rate of the infrastructure we do have.


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## Dr_V (Oct 27, 2009)

I suspect that if you bought a ~2-3 year old (used) Pontiac G5 or Ford Focus for $9k to $10k, then factored in the cost of gas (say, $2000/yr), and engine maintenance applicable only to petroleum-based cars (assuming that electric cars are the baseline) in the amount of $600/yr, you'll still come out ahead. 

With those numbers (e.g., $10k + years * [$2000+$600]), it'd take ~9 years just to reach the $32k initial cost of a Leaf, and that's ignoring the fact that you still need to pay to charge the Leaf. And of course, there may be other maintenance involved that makes it comparable in maintenance costs. And, the Leaf's resale value may decline precipitously after that period of time (compared to a gas-powered vehicle). And, you'd be a "first-adopter", so you may end up facing expensive repairs once you're out of the warranty period.


K.

*NB: I mentioned a G5 or Focus primarily because I thought that they were comparable in size and vehicle specs to the Leaf, and are fairly economical cars.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

When it comes down to it, though, any TCO-based decision will never lead to a new car purchase. There are always some exogenous considerations such as halo effect, whether you like the car or not, etc.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Not a chance in hell. A home gasoline generator is making electricity at costs upwards of 30 or 40 cents a kWh.


Yes, of course. My comment was a clear exaggeration to make a point about the increasing cost of hydro and that it should probably be considered a factor when making a decision of buying the electric car, just the price of gas may be a factor when buying a gasoline-driven car.


> Ontario hydro rates are lower than average. California, for instance, charges over 10 cents per kWh. Electricity is still dirt cheap.


Yes, but not for long.
The large scale replacement of all coal-based plants will significantly increase the cost of hydro within a short period of time


> Raising hydro rates can help spur conservation and offset the need for new generation infrastructure. Time of Use spreads demand so we have a better utilization rate of the infrastructure we do have.


It penalizes an essential consumption item, one that contributes to your quality of life.
The so-called conservation means, for example, not running air conditioning during 40+ humidex days.
Stay at home families (young kids, non working spouse, etc.) are penalized.
It is obviously being regulated in the wrong ways - on the one hand, it is shown to be subject to market forces of demand and supply, however, on the other hand, the most efficient and cheapest production is not being used.
It is either market driven or it is not.
Making it a hybrid commodity opens the door for all kinds of price fixing by the govt. and regulatory agencies.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

@Andrew: Yes, I've crunched some numbers on my own 5 year old Japanese compact. I'll probably have to drive it to the ground, before it becomes economical to replace it with a new one.

On externalities:
I'm all in favour of pricing in externalities into our economy. If the true cost of global warming and other "externalities" are included in our economy, the free market will find the most efficient path to a solution. Too bad no Canadian politician will touch the carbon tax after Dion's epic fail... *sigh*


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> One of the things I will do is to build solar electricity on my roof, to ensure some degree of electricity on a daily basis, so as to reduce my solar power on the grid. It may require thought to buy a back up generator in case of power shortages.


I would love to learn more about solar power generation, and the Ontario government's buy back program. How much would installing solar panels cost, what's the epxected return, break even point, etc...


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

slacker: I don't know about household, but I know there are companies that will, for instance, build a barn and install solar panels on the roof, finance the cost of all this for the farmer, and sell the hydro back into the grid through the feed in tariff program. The farmer puts nothing up front, and at the end of the term has a barn with solar panels installed at no cost to him. The company finances the panels for the duration of the FIT contract with the government, so the only risk is that the government of Ontario backs out of the deal. There might also be the need to buy insurance on the structure/panels.

I think this is a hint that the FIT is too rich. And honestly, it's an appallingly wasteful way to promote renewable energy sources, much like offering $8500 rebates on electric cars.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

One of my favorite sites for hybrid cars is www.hybridcars.com

One thing that I didn't see mentioned is insurance cost. Will insurance costs be high when someone smashes into the back of your $10,000+ battery pack? Also the battery packs wear out within a few years.. look at 8 year old prius prices on the used market.. the are cheap but the batteries are worn. 

It's still cheaper to buy a used econo car.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

slacker said:


> I would love to learn more about solar power generation, and the Ontario government's buy back program. How much would installing solar panels cost, what's the epxected return, break even point, etc...


Solar panels are really expensive. They have a life expectancy of around 20 years. From what I have read, the buy back is around .80 cents per KWH. I believe the income is also taxable by the CRA.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> The so-called conservation means, for example, not running air conditioning during 40+ humidex days.


It's important to make a distinction between energy efficiency and energy conservation. Energy conservation means doing without: e.g., not running A/C during 40+ humidex days, or shivering in the dark in winter. But that's the old-fashioned 1970s-style response to higher energy prices.

Since then, people have focused on improving energy efficiency, which means doing the same work with less energy. For the typical home, energy efficiency improvements can shave about 1/3 off your energy bill with no sacrifice in comfort or performance. Most of these improvements involve an up-front investment, such as adding insulation to your walls and attic, replacing an old refrigerator or furnace, etc., but in most cases the ROI is higher than you can get from almost any conventional investment. See http://hes.lbl.gov/consumer/learn-triple#money and http://hes.lbl.gov/consumer/profitable. 

There are many ways for governments and private-sector service providers to reduce or eliminate the barrier of up-front investments for low- and moderate-income households who can't afford to buy new equipment or pay for improvements but can't afford to pay higher electricity prices either.

All that said, when it comes to cars I don't think anyone is planning to buy a hybrid or electric car because they think they will save money in the long run. They're buying it for the same reasons they might buy "green" laundry detergent: they want to reduce their environmental impact.


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## carllecat (Aug 3, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> Potato:
> 
> Thanks for that summary. It's extremely helpful. I don't have that far to drive to work. It's 15 minutes with no traffic, 45 minutes with rush hour traffic. So my commute is 10 km each way. Plus it's great for local traffic, short run errands.
> 
> ...




If you live 10k from work, there is no way you will save about $4,000/year in gas. I live that far from work too and I barely spend $80/month on gas. Unless you drive a lot beside going to work, you probably won't save $4,000/year. Think about it, $4,000/year is an average of $77 per week.

My $0.02... Cheers!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Also, virtually no place I know of has plug-ins available for these cars. Do your home and place of work have the plug-ins? What if you move or change jobs?

You'll do a lot more than go 10KM to/from work.

I think on paper the concept is great but there are too many signficant roadblocks in the way. Until ON fixes up their electricity supply problems, this is a no starter. If they can't handle ac in summer heatwaves how can they handle all the added load of cars plugging in? I can just see McGuinty on the news now, asking people to wait until midnight to plug in their cars. LOL. Anyone who thinks rates are low in ON and the electricity supply is reliable and ready for the future is drinking the wrong kool aid. There is a serious problem and electric cars will do a wonderful job of highlighting it, while consumers buy cars they can't plug in!

Being green and consuming less shouldn't cost more! If it does, someone's trying to cash in on any savings and it won't be you!


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm going to say this. I go in and out of work a lot, since I'm a doc. i.e. I'll go home, get called in, etc., and I also run a lot of simple errands with the car. So it does add up.

I don't think I'll change jobs, to be honest ... since it's relatively stable. But worse come to worse, my wife and I could switch cars!

Also, I don't think it's unreasonable to get people to plug their cars overnight. Get a simple timer. Since I'm on time-of-use paying, why wouldn't I prefer to pay half price to charge overnight with a $30 timer? It seems like a simple solution to me.

I think Dr. V's idea on the cost/benefit of a 2-3 year-old car is the best analysis from an economical perspective, but there is this environmental externality factor. And I also agree about the dangers of being a first adopter.

On the solar panel side of things. My neighbour had it on his house. He said the net costs were about $5K, after tax rebates. In the first year, his energy saving were about $1 K. So he'll recoup his costs, he estimate after 5 years. Solar panels do need to be changed every 20 years ... so there is a cost, but it doesn't seem so hard to do.


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## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

slacker said:


> I've been looking at "total cost of ownership" stats on cars. There is no data for the Leaf yet. But they have some TCO data at:
> 
> http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/intro.do


I prefer to do my own math, but one thing to keep in mind with US data is the lower cost of fuel.

Also, for the Edmund's calculator, they only go out 5 years, and assume cars get their combined cycle rated consumption. As far as these things go, it's not a terrible calculator, but it's always best to do that math for your own specific situation. E.G., the Edmund's calculator says that the TCO for a Prius and a Matrix are the same, but that's after 5 years. If you'll only keep a car for 3, you may be better off in the Matrix; if you'll keep it till the wheels fall off, then the Prius would obviously be better... and of course, if your driving is mostly in the city, in rush hour...

OTOH, buying an older used car is almost always less expensive.

It also depends on what you value: obviously some people opt for a new car even though they know a used one would be cheaper; if knowing that owning a Leaf would mean you get to drive the latest gee-whiz cool tech item on your street, and that being green makes you happy, then sometimes you just need reassurance that the costs are within so much, and are happy to pay the difference for the subjective factors...

Anyway, definitely a tough decision, so good luck with it!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> I'm going to say this. I go in and out of work a lot, since I'm a doc. i.e. I'll go home, get called in, etc., and I also run a lot of simple errands with the car. So it does add up.
> 
> I don't think I'll change jobs, to be honest ... since it's relatively stable. But worse come to worse, my wife and I could switch cars!
> 
> ...


Not to mention that even at 10 cents a kWh, electric cars are damn cheap to run, equivalent to paying 15 or 20 cents a litre of fuel. When you're only paying 2.2 cents off peak, the amount you're spending on energy is vanishingly small. 

On a bit of a tangent, the whole TOU thing also creates a huge market in grid stabilization technologies: ie, storing hydro from the off-peak period and selling it back on the peak times. This is particularly advantageous in large cities, where the transmission capacity is constrained (this is why they are building gas plants in Oakville and the Toronto portlands). You can only push so much juice down the pipe during the peak, so TOU pays market participants to create 'reservoirs' near load points. So if that means hydro users (factories, distribution centres, etc.) or dedicated facilities store hydro off peak that would more or less be wasted otherwise, since the nukes run 24/7, that is a great improvement in efficiency. And of course, that market for grid stabilization technologies also creates a handy system for smoothing the production from intermittent renewable sources such as wind and solar.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Also, virtually no place I know of has plug-ins available for these cars. Do your home and place of work have the plug-ins? What if you move or change jobs?
> 
> You'll do a lot more than go 10KM to/from work.
> 
> ...


TRM, I'm not sure if you're heard about smart grid technologies, but the idea is that a large electric car fleet would actually help stabilize the grid. If you think about it, electric cars are batteries on wheels. Batteries can be used to store energy off-peak (when it is cheap, plentiful and often wasted) and release it back in to the grid during peak times (when the marginal cost of producing electricity is pushing 70, 80, even $1/ kWh). So on a hot summer day, the power authority can pay electric cars that are plugged in 20 or 30 cents a kWh to give up 5 or 10 kWh, provided the owner configured their car to allow this. This shouldn't compromise their ability to get home (ie, if the current charge allows a range of 80 km and the owner specifies that it can sell electricity down to a range of 40 km when their commute is 10 km), would help lower peaking power costs for the grid operator, and reduce the strain on the transmission grid. And to top it all off, there is the potential that the car owner can actually make a small profit off their car as a energy storage device, so that their net cost of electricity is actually negative.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Potato said:


> I've got pages and pages of stuff written on hybrids and electrics, but to try to keep it brief:
> *
> Pros: *Energy independence if energy costs soar (you can make your own electricity from solar panels if it came to it, but making your own gas -- even biodiesel -- is hard).
> 
> ...


While I agree with mos of what Potato wrote, I wanted to point out some general inaccuarcies and opinion disguised as fact with Potato's post.

A gas car's range is not better expressed as a time per tank. A car can idle for far longer than it could drive at 100km an hour, as there is very little draw on the engine.

While it is true there no belts or anything, electronics are known to fail quite frequently, and there are still moving parts involved with steering, braking, and all those modern additions to a car.

No pesky belts, sure, but I could say a traditional car has fewer pesky electric motors to burn out.

You also point to the potential for soaring energy costs, and installing solar panels to power our car, but solar panels generate electiricty very slowly and need expensive infrastructure in your home, not really a pro, that's for sure.

Quiet ride: A benefit? Perhaps, but even in a modern car, road noise is far more intrusive than engine noise. You still have spinning tires, grinding brakes, wind and fans for heat and AC

Sure you can charge from home. Unplugging and plugging the car in every single day. Raining? Plug it in and unplug it. Snowing? Same. Freezing rain?
Everything is frozen together. Not a big deal if you park in doors, but it is if you don't.

Plus the reduction in range in the winter, for all the reasons a traditional car has, plus the reduction in battery performance.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

To add to it. There are plenty of reasons to go ahead and buy one, but if you're doing to save money? It's really a zero sum game.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I wouldn't say electric cars are any better on maintenance. Some of the biggest problems from the first ones were transmissions. Something to do with instant power and the transmissions taking a lot more wear than traditional gas engines. Point is all the moving parts are still there. My Honda engine has 300k and running strong, it's the suspension and mechanical parts that put the power to the wheels that wear first

The idea to use these cars as energy storage for the grid is new to me. It would suck if you needed your car for something unexpected though!

Compressed air storage is another interesting option.


As far as production goes, at least the nickel used in electric car batteries is a Canadian resource. It's a shame it's all shipped to China just to be shipped to be manufactured though.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Thank you all for your opinions. As I said before, I hadn't committed, but wanted to get as many opinions as possible, so I could make a more informed decision.

I'm not 100% sure, but I thought the Nissan Leaf was supposed to have been built in North America (including the battery components).

As Clayton Christiansen at Harvard Business School would say, the key about disruptive technology is "will it be easy to use? Do you have first rider's range to beat others to it first? Or will you adopted something that will make the same thing better to use, or cheaper to produce." 

The Nissan LEAF is a first rider -- it's novel, and it fulfils a significant niche. Its challenge is to significant expand the range of the batteries from its current 100 mile proposal. If it is successful, the other elements to support it, i.e. the electric grid, the plug in places, etc ... will come. Markets will find ways to support it, if it makes economical sense. So I don't buy the concept that the electric grid won't support this demand. We're talking small demand at the start, escalating over time, if the electric car is succesful. The problem with "shortages" won't be during the winter, as much as summer time.

I can't wait to see what happens!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> I'm not 100% sure, but I thought the Nissan Leaf was supposed to have been built in North America (including the battery components).


On a quick search it seems you're right. The battery is also Lithium-ion as opposed to the typical Nickel-Cadmium


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I'm going to put a wind turbine and solar panels on one. They will generate more electricity than the car uses, so it will have infinite range and no need to be plugged in. In fact, when the car is parked in my driveway I should be able to plug into the grid and sell power back to the utility at a tidy profit. Those wishing to get in on the ground floor of this exciting new technology can purchase shares that I have made with Print Shop. Cash only please.

- Gyro Gearloose


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## MoneyMaker (Jun 1, 2009)

someone needs to make a Diesel-Electric hybrid already


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> I'm going to put a wind turbine and solar panels on one. They will generate more electricity than the car uses, so it will have infinite range and no need to be plugged in. In fact, when the car is parked in my driveway I should be able to plug into the grid and sell power back to the utility at a tidy profit. Those wishing to get in on the ground floor of this exciting new technology can purchase shares that I have made with Print Shop. Cash only please.
> 
> - Gyro Gearloose


Hmmm ... I was going to get one of those gadgets from Back to the Future, where you put garbage in to get electricity out.

That'll solve all the problems!


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## Jon202 (Apr 14, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> Sure you can charge from home. Unplugging and plugging the car in every single day. Raining? Plug it in and unplug it. Snowing? Same. Freezing rain?
> Everything is frozen together. Not a big deal if you park in doors, but it is if you don't.


Not sure what part of Canada you live it, but my winters are as Canadian as Tim Hortons Ice Caps and plugging and unplugging a block heater is second nature! I think that aspect would be the 'furthest' detractor one could imagine. 

Might as well use the same argument for electric or rechargeable lawnmowers....
... Oh the humanity.......


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MoneyMaker said:


> someone needs to make a Diesel-Electric hybrid already


I think the reason why you don't see this in passenger vehicles is that diesels are already more expensive than gasoline, so adding hybrid technology (and yet more drivetrain cost) puts them out of the market.

All that said, I think Canada Post/Purolator are using diesel-hybrids and I know some of the big national retailers are experimenting with diesel-electric hybrid tractors. Those ought to represent significant savings in urban settings with lots of stop and go.

On the problem of plugging/unplugging in winter: it can't be worse that the daily (sometimes twice daily) routine of scraping the ice and frost off the car. I can see a problem with people driving away with the plug still in, potentially causing damage. Perhaps preventing the car from moving while the plug is still connected would be sufficient.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I still think the most viable model for electric cars is Better Place: http://www.betterplace.com/.

They would use something like the existing gasoline station infrastructure to provide hot-swappable batteries, so instead of driving up to a gas station to fill your tank at the pump, you drive up to the station when your battery's running low to have your battery replaced with a fully charged one; it takes less time than filling your tank with gasoline (demo video here: http://www.betterplace.com/the-solution-switch-stations).


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Somehow Brad, I don't think that'll catch on. I want to avoid the gas station! That's one of the benefits!

Okay ... this will catch on, but I think of it as a complementary technology to the EV.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> Somehow Brad, I don't think that'll catch on. I want to avoid the gas station! That's one of the benefits!


They've been pretty successful at raising money so far -- more than $700 million to date (http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2010/01/25/the-daily-start-up-vcs-put-350m-in-a-better-place/). 

You might want to avoid the gas station, but going to the gas station is so deeply ingrained in our car culture that I actually think this is the perfect solution. Often the most successful technologies are the ones that don't require us to change our habits or learn anything new.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

brad said:


> They would use something like the existing gasoline station infrastructure to provide hot-swappable batteries, so instead of driving up to a gas station to fill your tank at the pump, you drive up to the station when your battery's running low to have your battery replaced with a fully charged one


I was going to say I wouldn't want some random abused battery... but I suppose that's the "station's" problem

If you watch the little video at the top, you only go to the switch station because of an unexpected trip. (and the best part - iPhone integration)


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Hmmm ... I take it back Brad. But this is a complementary technology to the EV.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

brad said:


> I still think the most viable model for electric cars is Better Place: http://www.betterplace.com/.
> 
> ... http://www.betterplace.com/the-solution-switch-stations).


The lead articles on that page today are about Israel and about a taxi company in Tokyo that is using switch-out batteries. The population density of Israel is 365 persons/sq.km. (#30 in the world). The population density of Japan is 337 person/sq.km. (#36) The population density of Canada is 3.425 persons/sq.km. (#228). The total land area of Israel is 20,770 sq.km. The total land area of Japan is 377,873. Canada's land area is 9,984,670 sq.km.

t's easier to go electric when your population density is 100 times that of Canada.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

OhGreatGuru said:


> t's easier to go electric when your population density is 100 times that of Canada.


That's exactly why they started this project in the countries they did: they picked islands (Hawaii), small and dense countries (Israel), etc. to prove and perfect the concept, and then once they have ironed out the kinks and gotten a few more billion in VC money, their plan is to expand it to other countries including the US and Canada. But even so, they might be limited mainly to urban areas and the surrounding suburbs -- I don't think EVs will work in places where the next town is 180 kilometers away.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> The lead articles on that page today are about Israel and about a taxi company in Tokyo that is using switch-out batteries. The population density of Israel is 365 persons/sq.km. (#30 in the world). The population density of Japan is 337 person/sq.km. (#36) The population density of Canada is 3.425 persons/sq.km. (#228). The total land area of Israel is 20,770 sq.km. The total land area of Japan is 377,873. Canada's land area is 9,984,670 sq.km.
> 
> t's easier to go electric when your population density is 100 times that of Canada.


I'd say look at the population density where there are people. Counting anything north of Edmonton is ridiculous. Look at the density of Ontario below Barrie. That has a population density of approx 150/km2 (back of the napkin). And a lot of that area is very empty. You don't need battery swaps everywhere in the area for the technology to catch on, as long as they have facility for 30 minute charges to 80% or even 6 hour charges. After all, people who don't venture far off the 400 series would be fine, and anyone who does can stick to a gas, diesel, or gas/electric hybrid.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I don't have any thoughts about the Leaf except I love the name. If you can afford it Genius just get it if it floats your boat and if you have a second car. 

I used to have a propane work van. I loved it because it was dirt cheap to run compared to the gas version. 3/4 ton work vans are gas pigs. It town it was ok because I knew where the gas stations were. 

The problem was that whenever you went out of town it was big trouble. Every town does have a gas station with a propane hook up. The problem is finding it. You don't usually think about this but when you're traveling you just pull off and there's a handy dandy gas station right there. Not so with propane station. You have to hunt around in an unfamiliar city/town to find the propane station. Maps that show propane fill ups are useless because not all of them have the fill up device for cars. 

The other problem was that if you run out of gas you need a tow. 

Twice I had serious problems at night once in a small town the propane station closed at 5pm. I had to stay the night until the guy came back to open the next morning. 

In Montreal I had to get a tow... to a closed station and wait for it to open. Both these times the weather was well below zero and I waited in the van and froze. 

The cost of a fill up varied from about $20 when I first got it to 35$ which was still half price. There is no resale market for these vans, I got it for $750 4 years old. Many people are scared of propane. 

These are the realities of alternative fuel vehicles. IMHO you need another vehicle to go out of town unless you enjoy looking off road for a specific gas station.


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> These are the realities of alternative fuel vehicles. IMHO you need another vehicle to go out of town unless you enjoy looking off road for a specific gas station.


This is where extended range electric vehicles come in. You still can hit your normal gas station when you need it. But you don't have to worry about running out of power if you have an extra couple things to do. 

Personally I'd be WAY more likely to buy a Volt over a Leaf just for that fact. If I am able to charge it, great, that's cheap transportation. If I'm not able to charge it, then the gas motor will be running. Maybe I don't get 50mpg when its running, but 90% of my driving in the car is to within my electric only range. It's a pretty simple concept that people seem to miss...


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

How about a VW TDI? I've heard that diesel vehicles are very fuel efficient.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

I've kind of poo-pooed the Volt, because it has too limited a range, that if I was going to go that route, I might as well go with a small gas car. One of the nice things about the Leaf is the elimination of the gas-powered engine and its equivalent parts.

Also, the Volt is coming out about $8000 more than the Leaf.


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## dilbert789 (Apr 20, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> I've kind of poo-pooed the Volt, because it has too limited a range, that if I was going to go that route, I might as well go with a small gas car. One of the nice things about the Leaf is the elimination of the gas-powered engine and its equivalent parts.
> 
> Also, the Volt is coming out about $8000 more than the Leaf.


Aside from price, I view the two vehicles in the complete opposite light. 

The volt at least isn't going to get me stranded because I drove a bit extra. 
In km's -> 
-> volt 40*1.6 = 64km + estimated another 450km on gas.(http://www.grist.org/article/volt-or-leaf-choosing-your-green-drive)
-> leaf 100*1.6 = 160km

So if I cannot drive anywhere in the leaf that is more than about an hour away and get home without having to charge it. I'd have to have another car, or a rental car for that trip. OR better yet, I bet you can fit a generator in the trunk... 

To me this isn't even a competition, I drive about 60km to work and back and 99% of the time I'd be on battery. I think that most people are within the same situation.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

My view is the opposite. I have a second car, and if I need to, I could always rent a Zipcar or something like that. In most circumstances for me, I'm city driving, and 160 km is going to be more than enough.

But these are individual circumstances. I also like the fact that there are no extra moving parts with a gas engine.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

slacker said:


> How about a VW TDI? I've heard that diesel vehicles are very fuel efficient.


Off topic but yes, they are amazing. Owned one in the past. 1000km per tank on my 2000 Jetta TDI. New ones are pushing 1100Km and on the VW forums guys are swapping out injectors for european ones to acheive 1200-1500 KM range. The downside? They are pricy to buy up front. 

On a side note, I had to sell my TDI to help my debt situation; I was in school. 

On topic: There are rumors of a TDI/electric hybrid combo with ultimate fuel savings on the website I posted back a few posts, hybridcars.com


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

OhGreatGuru said:


> I'm going to put a wind turbine and solar panels on one. They will generate more electricity than the car uses, so it will have infinite range and no need to be plugged in. In fact, when the car is parked in my driveway I should be able to plug into the grid and sell power back to the utility at a tidy profit. Those wishing to get in on the ground floor of this exciting new technology can purchase shares that I have made with Print Shop. Cash only please.
> 
> - Gyro Gearloose


For those who are concerned that weather-driven power is too unreliable in our climate, I have an alternative technology in development. It will use antennas and super-conducting generators to harness the energy of background Electromagnetic Radiation. We live in an invisible sea of electromagnetic waves from power lines, radio/televison tranmission, WIFI. My vehicle will harness this energy. Outside of populated areas a battery will propel the vehicle through the ever-present magnetic field of the earth. Every science student knows that if you move a conductor through a magnetic field it induces an electric current. So the super-conducting generator will recharge the battery as the car moves.

- Gyro


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

oh gyro g

i'd like to buy one of your cars, the one w the tourie on its bonnet & the turbine on the top. Next generation model svp no physical entity at all.

and i'll purchase shares but no need to print em. Sending $$$ later this am. U will B able to sense the energy.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

More mundane is technology that turns waste heat into electricity. Pop this onto your exhaust and save 5 or 10% fuel economy. Of course, they can also put these on all kinds of stacks using waste process heat.


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