# In Floor Heating? Yay or Nay?



## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Hello fellow CMFers,

So in-floor (radiant?) heating is something I'm considering for bathrooms and kitchen area underneath tile or similar material. My questions are:

1. is the cost worth the benefit? I'm seeing numbers for purchase and install of $10-$15 per sq ft. 
2. some online sources state that the difference in energy costs is nominal, but of course the vendor websites say it is cost saving. Which is it??
3. return on investment is break even from what I see. Does this sound about right?
4. if something goes wrong, very high cost. But warranties are 15-25 years? Have you had/heard of issues of this sort?

I'm trying to cost things out here and wonder if going with a rug in the bathroom and slippers in the kitchen would just be better...


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

We have (unheated) ceramic tile floors in both kitchen and bath. In winter, our bathtub gets very cold (we suspect the wall between it and the outside world is not well insulated). But despite that, I don't find the bathroom floor cold at all. You'll want to have a rug in the bathroom anyways to prevent puddles after a shower. The kitchen floor can be a bit chilly sometimes but in winter I am normally wearing socks around the house so it's not noticeable. The only time I do notice is if I wander out to the kitchen barefoot in the middle of the night. 

My friend has a heated floor in her bathroom and loves it. I can see how it would be lovely to have a warm (rather than room temperature) floor for your bare feet in the morning, but for me personally, it would not be worth the added expense.


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

we have heated tiles in the bathroom and it's great. Wasn't much cost if I recall. And it's not infloor heating per se -- it was a pad (or something like that) installed under the tiles, controlled by a dial on the bathroom wall -- with timed settings so it's toasty warm in the morn.

We did it as a comfort thing rather then any kind of cost savings, and still feel it was well worth it.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

If you are redoing the floors anyway, I don't think the cost is that much.

One drawback I've found with heated floors is that as wonderful as they are - my feet feel cold once I get to an unheated area. If this is a problem for anyone, I guess you could turn the temp way down so the temp difference is that high. Or just do the whole house. 

Note - I've never had heated floors in any place I've lived in, I've just noticed this issue with other houses.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I know! Once you get used to luxury, you expect it everywhere. Heated towel bars! Automatic mirror defoggers! Cashmere dental floss!


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

I think we may have Suntouch(?) which is avail from home depot for about $200 for the mat and $150 for the controller. I recall we paid $200-$300 a few years ago. Just in the bathroom, which is a small area, and an area in which we're most likely to be barefoot. There was little additional install costs since we were installing tiles anyways. I'd highly recommend it.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> I know! Once you get used to luxury, you expect it everywhere. Heated towel bars! Automatic mirror defoggers! Cashmere dental floss!


Mmmm...maybe I should look into a heated bike seat for my winter riding.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

slippers are cheaper LOL


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> Mmmm...maybe I should look into a heated bike seat for my winter riding.


More than a heated seat, you need this:


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> I know! Once you get used to luxury, you expect it everywhere. Heated towel bars! Automatic mirror defoggers! Cashmere dental floss!


Auto-dimming rearview mirror. I thought it was a gimmick until I had it--very nice!


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> More than a heated seat, you need this:


Lol - that would have been handy last Friday. 

One luxury I had in my last car which I thought was silly, but ended up being awesome was a remote control for the radio.

I remember when I bought the unit, the guy said it came with a remote and it was pretty handy. I said I thought that was the stupidest thing ever.

Once I tried it though - it was fantastic. I kept the remote in a spot right beside me and it made it super easy to switch tracks/stations without having to take my eyes off the road.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I demand voice recognition system for the car stereo.
And then I will trade in my 1999 Ford.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Where do they get this cost savings idea from? Heating your home with electricity is more expensive than with a natural gas furnace.

Well, natural gas furnaces are the norm around here, not sure about Vancouver. What is the main heat source in your house? I guess if you have electric forced-air heating or electric baseboards, there's not much difference, just the extra cost up front to install it.

So I really think there won't be any monetary return on investment, it's just something that's nice to have.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Go buy pretty much any new ford than Harold, they all have it now.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

The under floor heated pad sounds interesting! It seems it would need an eletrician to do the cablework but the lay out is apparently do-it-yourself? The purchase price and ongoing eletrical costs seem not bad... 

Charlie did you hire the electrician or can a tiler familiar with the product do it?


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> One luxury I had in my last car which I thought was silly, but ended up being awesome was a remote control for the radio....Once I tried it though - it was fantastic. I kept the remote in a spot right beside me and it made it super easy to switch tracks/stations without having to take my eyes off the road.


My Mazda has that built right into the steering wheel, I love it! 

Kind of funny all these niceties we're talking about in the frugality forum :encouragement:


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

The tile guy we used recommended it and installed it. It was part of a bigger reno, so it's possible the electrician got involved, but I really doubt it.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

I've just undergone an extensive renovation to my home. We installed electric in floor cabling in our ensuite bathroom and also in the entire addition 325 sq ft which was built on a slab. For the ensuite we did it for extra comfort but the room below is another bathroom (largely unused) where the heat is kept at 18 degrees. Our ensuite faces north and has 2 windows so tends also to one of the colder rooms.

For the addition we installed it in case the floor felt cold in the winter. We insulated the slab with R20 hi density foam. We have only used the addition floor heat once just to try it out- it takes 3 hours or so to come up to temp because of the concrete slab, even with smaller cable spacing. The floor will stay at 17 c or higher without it. The insulating did its job. In a regular floor it is much quicker to come up to temp and with a programmable theromstat you can change the temp during times when floor isn't in use. 

I like it but don't find it comfortable above 23 degrees- just too warm on the feet. Please note infloor electric IS NOT a substitute for regular heat of any kind. It will only warm the air very slightly even set at high temperatures- (28 c) -no matter what the salesman tells you. In my experience it will not keep an individual room at 21 c. It is also not very economical if you do the calculations, depending on your rates and other heat alternatives. For a small space it's a nice extra luxury.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Commercial building I bought has closed loop in-floor hot water radiant heating on both floors. We have forced air gas furnace as a backup but it almost never comes on. Warm quiet heat, no dusty air blowing around, tiled entrance dries up quickly on wet or snowy days. Only downside is you can't drop the temperature quickly if it gets too warm as once the concrete has absorbed the heat over days it takes forever to cool down. Tend to run the main floor hotter and the heat rises to the second floor which is set lower but they equal out.

Have Nuheat at home in our kitchen and bathrooms. Awesome stuff and you can just have it where you want it (We put a mat in front of our kitchen sink/stove area where we stand all the time). Less money to install, more to operate.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

My dad has radiant in floor heat. I believe it uses hot water which can be heated by different methods. Very cozy in his house even though the temperature is kept lower. If your feet are warm, your body feels warmer. It's nice that the house radiates the heat rather than just having warm air in a cold house.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

I have tile floors in my two renovated bathrooms and both got Nuheat mats and programmable thermostats. Best decision ever. Radiant heat is so much more comfortable. Your feet relax when you stand on it. There is an area under the clawfoot tub that you can touch with a barefoot to feel the difference. It is obnoxious. I would need 100 sq ft of mats to combat cold tile. My kids (toddlers) lay a towel on the floor and absorb the heat after a bath. In the morning it is a delight. When people come over the first thing they say after going to the bathroom is, "I love your floor!"

I also added it to my 'boot room' addition and love it. The heat is even and also cheaper than the base board heater option.

FYI, I also installed an infloor heating system in my garage. Love it there too.

I live in Winnipeg. Order from Nuheat in Vancouver. I did the wiring myself and installed the thermostat. You need a separate circuit (15A) for it.

Just do it.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I would definitely do this over baseboard heaters, which are ugly and a fire hazard.

In terms of whole-home heating, I think it's a nice-to-have, but perhaps unjustified given that you would still need ducts for central air if you are so inclined. I was wonder about whether the same process in reverse could be used to cool a home in the summer, but I don't think walking on cold floors would be too pleasant.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Young&Ambitious said:


> The under floor heated pad sounds interesting! It seems it would need an eletrician to do the cablework but the lay out is apparently do-it-yourself? The purchase price and ongoing eletrical costs seem not bad...
> 
> Charlie did you hire the electrician or can a tiler familiar with the product do it?


So lemme see if I understand this thread ... there are people who actually run electric wiring in their bathroom floors ... right :encouragement:


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

electric heat is not frugal, especially in a floor.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It's possible to do this without electricity. Electric in-floor heating is just the easiest to use for retrofits.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

rikk said:


> So lemme see if I understand this thread ... there are people who actually run electric wiring in their bathroom floors ... right :encouragement:


Some people actually have electric wiring in their bathtubs!!!:hopelessness:


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

RIkk- You learn well grasshopper!!


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

We put Nuheat into the floors of two reno'd bath and shower areas. Very nice but definitely a luxury. Once nice thing is that it comes with a programmable thermostat so you can have it come on just before you get up then switch off when you go off to your day. We have the frugal in floor heat in our powder room, either by good planning or happenstance, the main hot air duct for the ground floor runs right under the bathroom floor between the sink and toilet. My sister-in-law's house in Europe had in floor closed loop water and it was a very nice heat.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

In floor heating for a basement or garage unless the garage is more then 1 story Iam not sure if it is practical. A lot of heat comes up from the ground. If the basement is not used much the temp can be kept low & if you go away on holidays the heat can be turned down low for the rest of the house will not get as cold as heat comes up from the ground because with in floor heating in the basement the floor should be insulated so less heat would be transfered from the ground. A garage can be kept cooler then a house & if well insulated & attached to house wont get very cold & I think it would be best to use radiant heat by the use of radiators so heat is not lost into ground. The basement walls & along the sides of the floor of the garage below ground level should be insulated.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I did heated embedded tile myself with kits from home depot. Not cheap, about $400, but cheaper than paying another installed to put it in.
We did a 6'x8' front door/stairs landing area, and a 4'x5' read door entry area, with heated tile so wet feet would not land straight onto hardwood flooring, and the tiles would dry one their own most of the time. 

It helped to offset the heating cable costs that the tile I was laying I bought at an auction for $0.25 per square foot.
It also helped that I was able to mix dry mortar at home by weighing partial bags of dry material and mixing it in a spare old 50's era mix master next to the kitchen sink. 

Using the dry mortar in this way over buying pre-mixed pails of mortar saved about $300 on our project. 

I used one heating controller for both the front and back mats to save on cost too, and used some surplus building wire I had from another project to power the front set from the controller near the back door.

We setback the furnace overnight and during the day, and set the tile heater to almost match the furnace schedule, and to have a 0.5C higher set point.

The setup uses very little power the way we have it configured. 

My controller actually will tell you what percentage of the month it actually runs. If you can remember the right key sequence...

The bigger jump in power consumption was when the kids started leaving the xbox 360 video game console running overnight with a half finished battle to resume later. Those things pump out a fair whack of surplus heat.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

I purchased a one level bungalow a few years ago that infloor radiant heat installed. My biggest heating bill with all taxes/transportation etc you know all the stuff they add to it was $112.00. Compared to my last home with a normal mid-eff gas furnace its a clear winner with the infloor. It takes much longer for the temps to rise compared to ductwork system so finding your comfort zone and leaving it is the key.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

newfoundlander61 said:


> I purchased a one level bungalow a few years ago that infloor radiant heat installed. My biggest heating bill with all taxes/transportation etc you know all the stuff they add to it was $112.00. Compared to my last home with a normal mid-eff gas furnace its a clear winner with the infloor. It takes much longer for the temps to rise compared to ductwork system so finding your comfort zone and leaving it is the key.


Just curious ... how do you handle zoning, e.g. my place I have a wall of glass facing south/west ... in winter, when the sun's out, there's a lot of heat there ... I have central air so I turn on the furnace fan to distribute that heat through the house. Another question, humidity and fresh air, especially in winter ... how do you handle that ... some sort of air exchange unit? I am curious because I've been in electrically heated homes in winter ... if not done right they can be stuffy, humid, and not smell so good without air movement and exchange.


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## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

I have a Venmar 1.5 HRV that operates via a dehumidistat. There is a sensor for the dehumidstat is located outside up on the corner of the house and wired directly to it. This gives me good control during the warmer months for running it when necessary. Dehumidstat is not necesary as the unit can be controlled from the unit itself but is much easier adjusting the dial on the wall in the hallway. If I need fresh air or need to reduce moisture on the windows in winter I just adjust the dial on the demunidstat till it clicks and it will shut off when the desired setting is reached, it takes care of any smells from big cooking parties etc. The house has 2 zones, placement of thermostats is important as you don't want them directly under the intake air vents from the HRV as it will lower the temps on the dial during the winter resulting in the heat turning on more often than needed. 1 zone does the entrance/hallway/bathroom and 2 bedrooms. Due to the open floor plan the 2nd zone does the kitchen/living room and dining room.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

newfoundlander61 said:


> I have a Venmar 1.5 HRV ...


 Hi ... thanks ... I've bookmarked the Venmar site. The first winter in the new part of the house was really humid ... condensation on the thermopanes ... then it occurred to me ... this is all new (wet) materials ... wood, plaster, paint drying, etc ... the next winter was not so bad but even so, come fall, until the summer humidity is out of the air, there is more condensation than I'd like ... I'm thinking an HRV might be a good idea ... thanks again :encouragement:


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Rikk, if you have a new section on your house it will be tighter than the old section, so overall your place is holding in more moisture. That's why you may find more humidity than before. A heat exchanger would be a good idea. It's code here for new construction since late 80's and even if you put on an addition in an older house. I have a honeywell heat exchanger here and works great. In my last place I had a VanEE. Both work great. 

Here's some info from natural resources canada. canada mortgage and housing has some good info too:
Humidity in Your Home
A certain amount of humidity in your home is desirable for comfort during the colder months. Windows, doors
and skylights that are not energy efficient will often collect condensation or frost even when the indoor humidity
is at a reasonable level. Besides obscuring the view, this condensation can lead to mould formation on the
frames and sashes. With an energy-efficient ENERGY STAR® qualified product, it will take a higher indoor
humidity for condensation to form.
With well-controlled humidity in your home, you may even be able to turn down your thermostat and still feel
comfortable. Because humidity levels are normally higher in bathrooms and kitchens, consider installing an appropriate
ENERGY STAR labelled product in these rooms to reduce or eliminate condensation on windows.
Condensation Chart: Maximum Humidity
Before Window Condensation Occurs
Outside Temperature Standard Window Energy-Efficient Window
0°C 50% 63%
–10°C 38% 50%
–20°C 26% 40%
–30°C 18% 30%
–40°C 12% 23%
Be aware that high indoor humidity can lead to the formation of mould in areas of the house other than the windows,
doors or skylights.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

RBull said:


> Rikk, if you have a new section on your house it will be tighter than the old section, so overall your place is holding in more moisture. That's why you may find more humidity than before. A heat exchanger would be a good idea. It's code here for new construction since late 80's and even if you put on an addition in an older house. I have a honeywell heat exchanger here and works great. In my last place I had a VanEE. Both work great.
> Be aware that high indoor humidity can lead to the formation of mould in areas of the house other than the windows,
> doors or skylights.


Hello ... thanks for the info ... I'm aware that the new section is better sealed ... just quickly ... I'm on my way out for pool and beer ... 6" studs at 2' centers, pink fiberglass, vapor barrior ... watched that being installed ... good job, pella casement windows (ok, there may be cheaper) ... designed by me, executed by my contractor  I have a photo collection of the build ... somewhere. I selected a high efficiency, ok, 95%, condensing type gas furnace which uses outside air for combustion which helps with heat loss (but doesn't help for venting ... seal the house, then put holes in the walls to get fresh air therefore HRV) ... Trane ... the old part of the house has it's own Trane as well ... makes for easier zoning ... and last and maybe least, I spent 3 years with the NRC in Building Research where I actually learned a lot  Humidity isn't a serious problem ... it's not like I'm on the west coast or anything  ... it's just that in the fall the warmer air is holding considerably moisture to be dumped as the temperatures cool. Different conditions here than there ...


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Hey rikk,

We have an HRV in our bungalow, in Ottawa. Our house is pretty air tight so I'm glad we have it. Condensation on the windows whenever the outside temp. gets below -10 Deg. C. I've just recently turned it off for the spring, summer, and fall. Will plug it back in sometime around November.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Great to hear you've got it cased and have some practical/technical knowledge to boot. 

I'm on the other coast! 



rikk said:


> Hello ... thanks for the info ... I'm aware that the new section is better sealed ... just quickly ... I'm on my way out for pool and beer ... 6" studs at 2' centers, pink fiberglass, vapor barrior ... watched that being installed ... good job, pella casement windows (ok, there may be cheaper) ... designed by me, executed by my contractor  I have a photo collection of the build ... somewhere. I selected a high efficiency, ok, 95%, condensing type gas furnace which uses outside air for combustion which helps with heat loss (but doesn't help for venting ... seal the house, then put holes in the walls to get fresh air therefore HRV) ... Trane ... the old part of the house has it's own Trane as well ... makes for easier zoning ... and last and maybe least, I spent 3 years with the NRC in Building Research where I actually learned a lot  Humidity isn't a serious problem ... it's not like I'm on the west coast or anything  ... it's just that in the fall the warmer air is holding considerably moisture to be dumped as the temperatures cool. Different conditions here than there ...


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

We leave ours on year round. Our house is too tight and unless we're opening windows don't get enough fresh air. I may turn it off or down in the shoulder seasons or summer if we're opening windows and not running the AC. 
The only way to resolve your window condensation in the -10 and colder is to lower humidity, either with higher setting on HRV or increased use exhaust fans, or get more energy efficient windows if you already don't have them. 



My Own Advisor said:


> Hey rikk,
> 
> We have an HRV in our bungalow, in Ottawa. Our house is pretty air tight so I'm glad we have it. Condensation on the windows whenever the outside temp. gets below -10 Deg. C. I've just recently turned it off for the spring, summer, and fall. Will plug it back in sometime around November.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Our house was built in 1999, the windows are efficient. I should have clarified, without the HRV, below -10 Deg. C. is when I get condensation. With the HRV on, I don't usually have any condensation issues since I run it continuously in the winter.

I turn if off completely in the summer since it does in fact compete with the AC. It's getting warm enough in Ottawa to open windows during the day or evening when we get home from work to air out the house.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Good to hear the HRV is obviously functioning properly. Same deal here in the summer- bringing in more humid warm air doesn't help lower indoor temps or humidity. For a 1999 house windows are definitely therompanes, almost certainly have low e coating and may or not have argon gas. Part of my employment duties are window sales...LOL.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

My Own Advisor said:


> I turn if off completely in the summer since it does in fact compete with the AC. It's getting warm enough in Ottawa to open windows during the day or evening when we get home from work to air out the house.


Getting really OT now, or maybe not:

Yep, it's time to open the windows a bit here in Ottawa ... the birds are back, nice to hear them in the mornings. The basement ... that would be my bat cave where the home gym is ... can be a bit chilly spring and fall because the forced air furnace isn't on as much, and it can be damp (humid) mid-summer. My solution spring and fall is to turn on the furnace fan maybe 15 minutes before going down which exchanges the upstairs/downstairs air, and in the summer I use an air conditioner in the basement to dehumidify the basement ... the few weeks that it's really hot/humid in summer we close up the house, blinds down, turn on the ac and the furnace fan which is all we need to dehumidify the basement and cool the house just fine for us. 

So for me, humidity in the basement in the summer could be a problem without the ac/fan solution ... should I install a complete solution ... HVAC ... maybe some day. I'm ok with the current solution for now ... we like to have the windows open in summer, hear the birds, what's going on, and we get a nice breeze off the river ... no desire to seal the house up in summer ...


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