# Water Bill $663?



## KaeJS

Got my water bill today.

$663 for 45 days of usage.

What sort of recourse do I have here? I know for a fact I did not use almost $700 worth of water. I do not have a dishwasher and only 3 loads of laundry were done in the last 45 days. I do not have plants. I do not water a garden. I do not have a fish tank. I do not take showers longer than 10 minutes. All the tenants in the home work full time, so they aren't sitting at home dripping water.

Is it possible the meter reading was done incorrectly when I moved in?

It says I used 197 cubic meters (m3) of water in those 45 days. To break that down for some of you, that's equal to:

4,377 litres of water per day
182 litres of water per hour
3 litres of water per minute
1 litre ever twenty seconds!

How can this even be possible?

I've checked my water meter and there doesn't seem to be any leakage. I checked the numbers and after 30 minutes I checked again. The meter had not even moved at all. Not even by a single litre.

Something isn't adding up. 

Does anyone think the city is going to cut me a break? I really don't want to pay $663 for nothing.

Sure, maybe I used $100 worth of water + $25 in set up fees and yadda yadda. I was expecting a bill for $150. Now my budget is destroyed cause I'm $500 short!

Has anyone got a credit or a "break" from the city for this type of thing? I really don't want to be the one to pay. I don't need the entire bill to be waived, but I want some of it to be waived for sure. That's ludicrous.


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## Jungle

Is this your first water bill?
How many people are living in the house? 
Is the toilet running? 
Did you report an incorrect meter reading? 


Average person will use ABOUT $70 per bill.


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## KaeJS

Jungle said:


> Is this your first water bill?
> How many people are living in the house?
> Is the toilet running?
> Did you report an incorrect meter reading?
> 
> Average person will use ABOUT $70 per bill.


1. Yes, this is my first water bill.
2. 4 people live in the house
3. The toilet ran slightly longer after flushing, but I fixed this when I moved in by screwing down the screw atop the fill valve. There's no way it would rack up an additional $500. 
4. I haven't reported anything yet, as I just got the bill today and the office was closed.

5. Yes, they will use about $70. I estimated I would use about $100. That's why I'm so alarmed at my $663 figure.


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## HaroldCrump

What is the breakdown of the bill?
Is it mostly usage or are there other charges?
Often, the first bill has account setup charges.

Are you sure the previous owner did not leave unpaid bills?


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## KaeJS

Previous owners did not leave any unpaid bills. The breakdown of the bill is mainly water usage with a $25 setup fee and the main minimums.

Here is the bill:


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## HaroldCrump

197 is very high consumption for a single unit house.
At least 3x times higher than usual.
I just checked my last 3 bills and my monthly consumption ranges between 32 and 45 m3.
I suppose it will be higher during the peak summer months but 197 is too high.

Are the meter readings correct, have you checked (2359)?
Try turning off the water main (this shut off should be in your basement, usually the line that leads into the water heater), and then observe the meter.
Does it keep running up?

Either something is wrong with your meter, or all the toilets are leaking real bad, or one of your tenants is running a grow-op


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## KaeJS

The meter (as of today) is actually showing me 2412 (which is higher)

I checked the water and there are no leaks. Even when the water valve is turned on, the meter will not move, even after 20 minutes it will not move by even half a quarter of a litre. There are no leaks.


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## KaeJS

Is there any kind of credit I may be able to receive from the city, or are they basically just going to send someone out to my house and say the meter is working and that I have to pay the fees?


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## ddkay

I thought one of your roommates has a different schedule so he is awake when everyone else isn't? If the meter is working you have to pay it, maybe double check the toilets for leaks and Bob's closet for plants


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## Potato

KaeJS said:


> The meter (as of today) is actually showing me 2412 (which is higher)


Well, the billing cycle date there suggests the read date was the 14th, which puts you at 53 m[sup]3[/sup] in 14 days, and 3.8 m[sup]3[/sup]/day is not very different than the 4.4 you were billed for there. That suggests it might not be a problem with the initial read, so time to do some trouble-shooting. 

First, what are the units given on your meter? What level of resolution do you have with the reading? It's highly unlikely that it's reading gallons while they are charging you for cubic meters (the difference is a factor of 264, and I doubt your bill for usage was only a few dollars), but worth checking for the more likely error that there's a shifted decimal place, putting you at 0.4 m[sup]3[/sup]/day -- close to the Canadian per capita average. 

Next would be to check for leaks, which you would do by the method you've tried: watching the meter for a time with no usage (at your rate of usage, you'd have to watch for ~6 hours with no water usage to be sure there isn't a leak if you only have single-digit m[sup]3[/sup] resolution, though earlier you suggested that you have it down to litres, or three decimal places on a m[sup]3[/sup] scale).

Then you'd have to start checking for calibration and extreme waste.


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## mind_business

I had a dispute with the City of Cambridge over my water/sewar bill. It was $400 one month, where it's usually $85 for a two month billing period. When I first investigated for leaks, there were none ... including both of our toilets, and the meter wasn't moving. Then after a couple of days my wife noticed a 'slight' sound coming from the upstairs toilet. Sure enough it was cycling a lot of water, very quietly. Sometimes it would shut off completely, and sometimes it would stay in the cycling mode. The only conclusion I could come to was that the toilet had been cycling water for most of the time that we were on our week's vacation. Brutal!!! Replaced the mechanism, and all was fixed.

Btw, the City was very good about it, and had offered to send someone down to look at the meter. Wasn't needed since I found the problem.


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## HaroldCrump

KaeJS said:


> The meter (as of today) is actually showing me 2412 (which is higher)
> I checked the water and there are no leaks. Even when the water valve is turned on, the meter will not move, even after 20 minutes it will not move by even half a quarter of a litre. There are no leaks.


Hmm, in that case, it might be time to play Sherlock Holmes.
There are probably one or more leaky toilets.
One common method to check for leaky toilets are those colored disinfectants that you can pour into the tank and see if any of the color appears in the toilet without flushing.
If it does, then you have a leak.

The other possibility is one or more of your tenants are wasting a lot of water, either by leaving taps running while shaving, brushing, etc. or by taking extra long showers.

Do you have a dishwasher - do you track how often it is used?
Maybe one of your tenants is running the dishwasher to clean 1 coffee cup, while you are away.

How many loads of laundry per week?


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## kcowan

Did the initial reading get done upon closing? That is a normal part of closing so I assume yes. But check your closing documents to be sure.

(I had a teenage son who put on the shower and then sat on the toilet waiting for it to get hot. He fell asleep and 20 minutes later the water was still running. We were on a well at the time so just used some electricity for running the pump and water heater!)

Once you have checked all the toilets, you might have to consider timers on your showers. Young men are famous for overusing showers.


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## Dmoney

You got me worried now... Will have to start using the shower at work instead of at home.
When renting, the water was included in condo maintenance fees... Not any more...

I think we've actually used 100m3 in less than a month so far... not looking forward to the bill.


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## KaeJS

I am able to see up to the litre on the water meter. Right now, this is what it shows:

02,412.615 m3.

Between last night, there was a couple showers run, a toilet flushed a few times, and that's about it. Last night my post said it was at 2412. This means that I have used maybe about half of a cubic metre in the last 12 hours or so. And for fair measure, one of the tenants did have his girlfriend over last night... so I'm sure the toilets were run a bit more. 

Laundry is only about 1/week. max. that might even be too much.

I have a dishwasher, but we do not use it. It is shut off from the water supply.

I will be calling the city to see what they say. I'm going to be really upset if I have to pay this bill. I don't even think it's humanly possible to use 197,000 litres in 45 days. I don't have a pool!!


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## KaeJS

I am leaving the house now for about an hour or so. No tenants are in the house.

When I get back, I will check the meter and re-post the results.


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## mind_business

Well, when you come to the realization that it's one of your toilets that's acting up, this will be the best $35 you'll spend for a repair as a homeowner. 

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/universal-complete-toilet-repair-kit/959694


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## Homerhomer

Can you ask the previous owner to see what was the average bill?

$640 is insane for water, I am actually surprized to read that the average person will use $70 per month, are there major differences between municipalities? My water is combined with hydro, and I never had combined bill over $200, that includes having up to 3 tenants, teenager, dishwasher, watering garden and grass. Just looking at my last bill the water component is $45, that includes $20 of basic charge and $25 usage, that's for 2 adults, regular usage (although I often shower at the gym), dishwasher, washing machine and so on.


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## jcgd

This happened to me once. It turned out it was a leaky faucet and apparently it leaked enough in a month to fill an Olympic swimming pool. The city gave us a free pass that month and took the bill down to our average. This was in Calgary so I'm not sure they will do that in your location. Just put up a big stink and you never know.

It's crazy what you can lose from a dripping sink or leaky toilet.


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## KaeJS

It's 11:31am. 1 hour since I left. It appears I may have a super, super, super small leak.

The meter still says 2,412,615. However, the five appears to be a tad higher than it was before. It's as if maybe 200ml (1/5 of a litre) was wasted. There is no way it amounts to $600. 

I am calling the city.


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## ChrisR

KaeJS said:


> Laundry is only about 1/week. max. that might even be too much.


Do your tenants not use the laundry?

I would suspect that if laundry were free, each tenant would do at least 3 loads per week.


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## KaeJS

ChrisR said:


> Do your tenants not use the laundry?
> 
> I would suspect that if laundry were free, each tenant would do at least 3 loads per week.


Laundry _is_ free, but one guy never washes his clothes and the other guy does laundry somewhere else.

There is only myself and one tenant that does laundry, and we both don't do laundry that often.


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## KaeJS

City of Cambridge Water Division is closed until January 3.

Fantastic.


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## carverman

A leaky toilet can waste a LOT of water in a month or 45 days.

If the water valve connected to the float does not shut off the flow of water, the overflow pipe will waste water as a small leak.,over time a 10 litre per hour toilet leak will amount to
240 litres in 24hr day x 45 days = 10,800 litres in 45 days.

That is almost 11 cubic meters of water wasted. 

The other thing is the flapper valve not sealing the tank reservoir properly can cause a leak under the flapper
and the toile will run and not overflow.

Either one of those running 24/7 can waste thousands of liters of water over 45 days.
Don't know if your billing cycle is evry 45 days or every two months. but even a small continous leak in a toilet can cost a lot over time. A lot water wasted than a dripping tap. 

My neighbour down the street once got a huge water bill..$400 dollars (about $300) over the normal billing. It turned out to be a leaking flapper valve in the one of the toilets. 
City would not give her a rebate..she had to pay it.


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## carverman

KaeJS said:


> Got my water bill today.
> 
> $663 for 45 days of usage.
> 
> What sort of recourse do I have here?
> 
> Is it possible the meter reading was done incorrectly when I moved in?


It is always possible. You probably should have wrote down the meter reading when you moved in, if this is your first water bill since you moved in. Generally speaking on purchase of new property, the city has to be notified of the change of ownership by the closing lawyer (request for a water/sewer certificate), and the city has to issue a water certificate (with current water reading at or around the closing date), that is billed back to the previous owner. 

Here is the one for Ottawa..I'm sure that the City of Cambridge has one as well.

http://ottawa.ca/en/residents/water...request-water-and-sewer-surcharge-certificate



> It says I used 197 cubic meters (m3) of water in those 45 days. To break that down for some of you, that's equal to:
> 
> 197 cubic meters is 19,700 litres of water .
> 4,377 litres of water per day
> 182 litres of water per hour
> 3 litres of water per minute
> 1 litre ever twenty seconds!
> 
> How can this even be possible?
> 
> I've checked my water meter and there doesn't seem to be any leakage. I checked the numbers and after 30 minutes I checked again. The meter had not even moved at all. Not even by a single litre.
> 
> Something isn't adding up.
> 
> Does anyone think the city is going to cut me a break? I really don't want to pay $663 for nothing.


If you or your closing lawyer did not request a water certicate (there is a charge for that), then how is the city supposed to
know how much water you (the new owner) has consumed in 45 days? 



> Sure, maybe I used $100 worth of water + $25 in set up fees and yadda yadda. I was expecting a bill for $150. Now my budget is destroyed cause I'm $500 short!


Did you closing lawyer request a water certificate (water meter reading for closing date) from the City
of Cambridge Water Dept? 

Water meter reading is no different than a hydro meter reading, a gas meter reading and check on back taxes owed (if any). Your closing lawyer is responsible for that..that is why you pay a closing lawyer to handle
these things besides transfer of title deed.


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## colossk

Dmoney said:


> You got me worried now... Will have to start using the shower at work instead of at home.
> When renting, the water was included in condo maintenance fees... Not any more...
> 
> I think we've actually used 100m3 in less than a month so far... not looking forward to the bill.


Are you kidding me? If you can't afford to shower at home, and are worried about the costs of a quick 5-10 minute shower, you can't afford the place.. period. There's frugal and there's absolutely freaking ridiculous.

To the OP: For what it's worth, we are billed on a 90 day cycle. My last 2 water bills were billed $780 for the past 2 cycles (6 moths). We are a family of 5 with a pool and a hot tub that probably was filled 4x in that 6 month period (hot tub not pool). I have a huge lot that needed to be watered in the summer. We were doing laundry non stop (2+ loads/night on the longest/hottest sanitize setting) (2 of our kids were going thru potty training and are wearing underwear and having accidents daily plus accidents in their beds)



You have a leak or the meter was read wrong on closing or the actual end reading for this billing cycle


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## KaeJS

Well, I don't know if I got a certificate...

But apparently the water meter was "Read". I was never a part of that, and I don't know if my lawyers got a certificate. To my knowledge, I do not have one, as I believe it was the previous owners that had this completed. When I signed up for my water bill online, it said the sellers had already opened a profile and that I was to just submit the application online. There was no space for a meter reading. I did the whole application over the internet.

I had no idea what the meter said until now.
I guess it's my fault for not checking when I moved in. I didn't even think about it though. Never bought a house before. I thought it was all done electronically.


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## Spudd

Dmoney said:


> I think we've actually used 100m3 in less than a month so far... not looking forward to the bill.


If that's the case, that's a lot. At my house we have 2 adults, and my last water bill was 8300 gallons (31.4 m3) for 118 days, for a total of $99. The water rate for Toronto is 0.01191481 per gallon, so you can figure a rough estimate for yourself. Are you sure it's really 100 m3 in just a month?


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## KaeJS

mind_business said:


> I had a dispute with the City of Cambridge over my water/sewar bill.
> 
> Btw, the City was very good about it, and had offered to send someone down to look at the meter. Wasn't needed since I found the problem.


I hope the City is going to be nice to me about it! Especially since I can't even get a hold of them. It says if I don't pay by the due date, they will charge me 1.25%! But there's no way I'm paying the bill without speaking to them first.


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## marina628

We are 5 living in a 4 bathroom house and we do about 7-10 loads of laundry a week and on average we spend $50 a month on water ,something wrong with things on that bill as in summer with all the lawn to get watered we have yet to even get to $80 a month.


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## Dmoney

Spudd said:


> If that's the case, that's a lot. At my house we have 2 adults, and my last water bill was 8300 gallons (31.4 m3) for 118 days, for a total of $99. The water rate for Toronto is 0.01191481 per gallon, so you can figure a rough estimate for yourself. Are you sure it's really 100 m3 in just a month?


I'm not positive... I know I called in specifically on the day of closing with an updated reading of the meter. I forget the exact amount, it's written down somewhere. Out of curiosity I checked it a few weeks later and it was climbing quickly. I'm not sure what the reading is though... It could be gallons, litres, m3... Will wait and see what the bill comes out to. Hopefully won't get the same shock as KaeJS. I know I do have ridiculously long and ridiculously hot showers though, which surely doesn't help.


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## Sherlock

Is it possible the meter used to be faulty and failed to register water usage in previous months, but it was recently fixed so now you are being charged for the water used in those previous months?


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## mind_business

Spudd said:


> If that's the case, that's a lot. At my house we have 2 adults, and my last water bill was 8300 gallons (31.4 m3) for 118 days, for a total of $99. The water rate for Toronto is 0.01191481 per gallon, so you can figure a rough estimate for yourself. Are you sure it's really 100 m3 in just a month?


Cambridge combines their Water & Sewar (Wastewater) charges as follows (from my November Bill):

Water Consumption Charge = $1.54660 per m^3
Wastewater Usage Charge = $1.59720 per m^3

From my last bill, we consumed 19 m^3 (applies to both water and wastewater).

There are also some fixed charges ($5.86 + $5.46 + $0.79) per month.

We are billed for two months. For October and November, our total bill came to $83.96*.

* There's only two of us. We're relatively frugal with our water usage, and don't have a dishwasher.

Based on our usage, compared to KaeJS's situation (with two renters), I would expect his bill to be approximately double ours. Even then, his bill should not have been more than $170.00.
******************************************************************

Btw, if it was a leaky toilet, which I don't think it is anymore, a toilet can leak as much as "200 gallons of water or more every day" [quote from: http://www.epa.gov/WaterSense/pubs/fixleak.html ]

200 gallons per day = 0.76 m^3 per day. Therefore for 45 days this would work out to 34 m^3. There's no way that his bill would have seen 197 m^3 usage within 45 days because of a leaky toilet. It looks more like they made a mistake during close-out of the previous owners account when they did an actual reading. They should be able to figure it out easily enough by looking at the previous bills, and doing a 'reasonable estimate' for what it would have been when KaeJS took it over. They'll have to go after the previous owner for the difference.


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## mind_business

My guess is that the previous owner was watering the lawn like crazy to get his house ready to sell, in the summer/Fall months. The City likely didn't do an actual Read of the meter during this time. Whoever went to do the reading at the end must have made an error. That, or KaeJS has a MUCH bigger leak somewhere :eek2:


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## carverman

KaeJS said:


> Well, I don't know if I got a certificate...
> 
> But apparently the water meter was "Read". I was never a part of that, and I don't know if my lawyers got a certificate. To my knowledge, I do not have one, as I believe it was the previous owners that had this completed. When I signed up for my water bill online,* it said the sellers had already opened a profile and that I was to just submit the application online. There was no space for a meter reading. I did the whole application over the internet.*


Don't know then, what your problem is. I know it's a bit late now, but you should always insist that the seller has a meter reading on the utilities, and the seller pays their portion of the utilities they have used up to and including the closing date. 
If not then you would be liable for any power used, nat gas used or water/sewer used by the previous owner/tenant and what you actually used yourself on the first bill. 




> *I had no idea what the meter said until now.
> I guess it's my fault for not checking when I moved in. I didn't even think about it though. Never bought a house before. I thought it was all done electronically.*


*

Yes, you are finding out the hard way unfortunately about oversights. Yes the meter reading is done electronically from outside, but the big question is who actually consumed that water withing the 45 day billing period...you and your tenant?..or the previous owner + you? 

Utilities should NEVER be left to blind trust that everyone is going to do the right thing. 
As an owner, you have to take the responsibility of calling the utilities and getting things straightened out when you move in, including readings, unless they have been already requested by your closing lawyer. 

Whatever the previous water reading was (that the seller may had already paid out..I presume) and
what you have used so far since moving in with your tenants, may be hard to unravel now. 

Upon moving in, you should have recorded and either phoned in the water meter reading to the Water Works dept. or asked for new meter reading. Your closing lawyer is responsible for getting these certificates. so I don't know what can be done now..maybe contact your closing lawyer. 

I mean, someone could have easily opened up a outside water tap and let the water run for days and that
could also have run up a large water consumption reading. On top of the water charge, you are also charged a sewer charge for all that water that you supposedly used.*


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## carverman

mind_business said:


> *It looks more like they made a mistake during close-out of the previous owners account when they did an actual reading.* They should be able to figure it out easily enough by looking at the previous bills, and doing a 'reasonable estimate' for what it would have been when KaeJS took it over. They'll have to go after the previous owner for the difference.


Yes, IMO, this seems more likely. I don't understand the 45 day billing cycle, since most water utilities bill on a two month cycle.
The other thing that KaeJs should be aware of is that some water utilities estimate for two months or more and do a "catchup water reading" after a longer period of time, since it costs them to send someone out to read the meters. (The nat gas utilities do this as well to cut down on the expense of reading meters each month).

I think that KaeJs now has to go to the water utility and see what the actually billing was for the previous owners on a two monthly basis, and the last water reading that was taken for them,
and if their final bill at that address was paid when they moved out.


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## mind_business

The 45 day billing cycle is not normal ... usually it's 60 days. The 45 days is because KaeJS must have opened up his new water account partway through their billing cycle.


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## KaeJS

I have left the house. 

I will be in Mississauga until Monday. When I left the house, the meter said 2, 412.6xx. 

I will check on Monday. This will be exactly a 3 day period. I left at 5pm and will be returning at 5pm on Monday. I will check the meter and we will see how much water the tenants are using. 

I would be surprised if the meter said more than 2415.


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## webber22

Your neighbor could have been operating a bottled water factory during the night using your hose


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## Sherlock

Yes it's that new water company, Stolen Springs. Their operating costs are way low, that's why I bought their stock.


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## Xoron

mind_business said:


> My guess is that the previous owner was watering the lawn like crazy to get his house ready to sell, in the summer/Fall months. The City likely didn't do an actual Read of the meter during this time. Whoever went to do the reading at the end must have made an error. That, or KaeJS has a MUCH bigger leak somewhere :eek2:


But if you do the calculations on his usage:

On the bill: 197M^3 / 45 days = 4.377777778 M^3 per day (45 day billing period)
For 12/14/2012 to 12/26/2012 (12 days), meter reading was 2412 (an increase of 53 from the last bill) in 12 days

The current usage is 53M^3 / 12 days = 4.416666667 M^3 per day.

So the usage per day hasn't changed. The water is being used somewhere, and the next bill will on par with the last one at this rate.


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## KaeJS

Xoron said:


> But if you do the calculations on his usage:
> 
> On the bill: 197M^3 / 45 days = 4.377777778 M^3 per day (45 day billing period)
> For 12/14/2012 to 12/26/2012 (53 days), meter reading was 2412 (an increase of 53 from the last bill) in 12 days
> 
> The current usage is 53M^3 / 12 days = 4.416666667 M^3 per day.
> 
> So the usage per day hasn't changed. The water is being used somewhere, and the next bill will on par with the last one at this rate.


But then how do we explain the fact that the meter is moving by approximately only 1 m3 per day?

As I said, I am in Mississauga, but I can almost guarantee when I get home on Monday that the meter won't be above 2415....


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## Karen

I received a $96 credit from the municipality when I found out that my hot water tank had been leaking for a couple of months, and I didn't know it. It was only discovered when I had someone come to check the furnace for the winter; the hot water heater was in the same closet in the garage, and the furnace man discovered it. I also got a credit on my gas bill because the water was running right through the water tank all day long so it was constantly heating water all the time. Pretty stupid of me not to have noticed myself, I must admit!


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## kcowan

KaeJS said:


> I had no idea what the meter said until now.
> I guess it's my fault for not checking when I moved in. I didn't even think about it though. Never bought a house before. I thought it was all done electronically.


Your lawyer is responsible for the final reading being done and billed to the seller. It will be itemized in disbursements on his bill for closing costs and you should be able to look at it now. If it was not done, he is on the hook for any variance.

(When we bought a house in London, we took on their second mortgage because it was so attractive. When it came to signing the closing documents we confirmed that the rate was as advertised. However tha actual rate turned out to be 2% higher. He agreed to pay the difference for the whole time we owned the house.)


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## carverman

KaeJS said:


> I have left the house.
> 
> 
> I would be surprised if the meter said m*ore than 2415.*


Nothing like an extreme water bill to pay more attention to the water meter.:biggrin:

2415-2412 = 3 cu meter = 3000 lites approximately.
If you have the old toilets in your place with 12 liter per flush that's 250 toilet flushes...
...highly unlikely the tenants toilet is going to be flushed that much.

If the tenant toilet is flushed 6 times per day (48 L x 3 days) = 144L (say 200 litres for some extra flushes)

A 10 minute shower could easily run 25-30 litres or more, depending on whether you have a water
saving shower head. 

1 shower per day per tenant (you have 2?) is 2 showers per day x 3 days = 6 showers x 30 L = (200 litres approx.)
Washing dishes doesn't take much..so a conservative estimate is that if there are no leaks and water usage
by your tenants is normal usage (assuming they don't have guests)....and you are NOT using any water yourself,
it should be around 600-1000 L for the 3 day period.


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## carverman

kcowan said:


> Your lawyer is responsible for the final reading being done and billed to the seller. It *will be itemized in disbursements on his bill for closing costs and you should be able to look at it now*. If it was not done, he is on the hook for any variance.


Absolutely! I remember a few years ago, when I bought my house (not my current one), I got a high water bill that came in my mail a few days afterwards. 

It still had the previous owners name on the address (which was now my house). Since the previous owner did not leave any forwarding address for me to forward the mail, I called my closing lawyer, and he said to send it to him (inside another another envelope) and he would take care of it. 

The water/sewer service is set up for the house location..not a particular owner..so the water bill will
be sent to the house address. 

The closing lawyer gets paid for ensuring clear title and dealing with the utilities as required by each municipality, so in KaeJs case, either the closing lawyer overlooked the water meter issue..or there is some other issue that needs to be dealt with by the closing lawyer or the municipality water works..or both.

That is why in the Ottawa-Carleton municipal water system, the closing lawyer has to apply to the water
dept for a water certificate. The water usage is then computed, meter read, the current bill sent to previous owner (or seller's lawyer), and the new owner is then responsible for any NEW consumption from date of
possession.


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## carverman

KaeJS said:


> But then how do we explain the fact that the meter is moving by approximately only 1 m3 per day?


You are going through 1000 liters per day? 
1. You should be checking all taps, outside taps, toilets and any other cold water "attachment" after the water meter. 
2. If no apparent leaks can be found, then the next thing is to insist that the water municipality calibrate or change the water meter. 
These are flow rate meters and even though they are mostly reliable, they can develop problems.

In my current house, about 5 years ago, the water meter installed (25 years ago or more) was reading low..which while it was to my advantage, resulted in an unusally low water bill, (only the nominal fire service charge was on it)...the Ottawa water works caught it after a couple of billings, and advised me to be home at such and such a time so they could replace the water meter. 

I've also had my gas meter replaced by Enbridge as part of their program to ensure the meters are re-calibrated from time to time. 

A leak outside the water meter is covered by the municipality.


----------



## Xoron

Well unless there is a problem with the meter, then the water has to be going somewhere. Leaky toilet. A lot of water use by the tenants. Watering your lawn (just kidding). The calculations on your last 12 days of usage is just about the same as in the previous 45 days. 

Keep a log of the readings every so often to see if you can find a pattern. Some days use more than others? Or if it's consistent. I'm betting on a leak somewhere in the house that you haven't found yet. Leaky toilet is the likely culprit. As the others suggested. try putting a little food colouring in the water tank (back of the toilet) and see if it seeps into the bowl.


----------



## carverman

Xoron said:


> Keep a log of the readings every so often to see if you can find a pattern. Some days use more than others? Or if it's consistent. I'm betting on a leak somewhere in the house that you haven't found yet. Leaky toilet is the likely culprit. As the others suggested. try putting a little food colouring in the water tank (back of the toilet) and see if it seeps into the bowl.


If it's going down the overflow tube inside the tank, the food colouring may not necessary show up in the bowl until you actually flush the toilet. 

However, a leaking flapper valve will. Toilets are siphon action...here is a description on how they work..
http://www.ehow.com/about_6574387_do-flush-toilets-work_.html

In either case, there should be some noise that water is "running", if the OP is actually going through that much water due to a "running toilet" , where the water valve or float (or flapper leaking) is not shutting off the flow of water after it reaches a certain height in the tank.


----------



## Cal

Thats a good idea to check the overflow tube/water levels, and its easy to check/adjust. 

Also you may want turn off the water to each toilet, and see if water leaks out of the tank-you will notice the water level is lower in an hour or two, you may need to replace the rubber flapper in the bottom of the tank to ensure a good seal and that no water leaks out.

I hate it when tenants don't inform you of small minor problems that are easy to correct...but hey its not their place. So most of them don't care.

Bless the good tenants who do care.


----------



## Xoron

Xoron said:


> The current usage is 53M^3 / 12 days = 4.416666667 M^3 per day.


Wow, I just realized how much water that really is. that's like 4400 LITERS of water a day. That is an extraordinary amount of water consumption. Are you sure the meter is in M^3 rather than liters or gallons? 

Our most recent bill (Ending Mid Sept 2012) was 160M^3 for 126 days, or 1.27M^3 per day. That's two adults and two young children. 
- Two adult showers a day
- One kids bath a day
- Dishwasher every day
- Watering the lawn (a little) over the summer
- Laundry (and lots of it with 2 small kids)
- Cook at home, so lots of pots and pans.

Something is way off KaeJS. There is some serious amount of water going through your house. Even if the meter advances by 1 digit while you're away, that's 1000Liters of water consumed.


----------



## uptoolate

That is a ton of water (actually at over a ton per 1000L, that is many, many tons of water). I just checked my bills and we have average about 40 cubic metres per 60 days and I have 4 teenagers who I am constantly chasing out of the steam sauna - I mean shower! Also, a gazillion loads of laundry, although we did go to a front loader which helps.

Lots of good advice on checking things. Like others, I would have guessed toilets. The flappers just don't seem to last like the old days. But if you are watching the meter closely and it doesn't seem to be moving that doesn't sound like a leak. It also sounds like there has been quite a bit of use in the current billing cycle that now seems to have decreased since you have been watching. Did you mention the water use to others in the house? Perhaps someone has altered their usage pattern. I hope that you get it sorted out. Surprises like these are absolutely not good.


----------



## Haligonian

Some toilets have a chain from the leaver to the flapper. If your's does, it may be the case that the chain is binding the links and causing the flapper to stay open and run water continously. If this is the problem, the leak may not be constant because the chain can unbind the next time the toilet is flushed (the only time you would spot the leak is if the chain is binded between flushes). That is, sometimes when the toilet is flushed, the chain can bind causing the flapper to stay open until it is flushed again causing the chain to unbind (the water leak would be occasional). If this the case, try adjusing the chain to have more slack in it. You may want to check with your tenants to see if they sometimes hear running water in the toilet.

This may or not be your problem, hope it helps.


----------



## carverman

If there is no apparent leaks from toilets or outside taps (frozen and leaking), 
AND the water bill has been paid to the date of possession, perhaps the meter needs to be checked out.



> Your commonplace household water meter reads in cubic metres or cubic
> feet, and most commonly displays your total consumption to the nearest
> tenth, much like the odometer in your car measures total distance
> traveled.
> 
> Basically, the pipe which supplies the water to your
> house/apartment/domain has a flow meter at the entrance to your
> property and meaures how much water has entered your house and records
> that amount on a dial.
> 
> How does a water flowmeter work?
> Your pipe's circumferance is a known factor and the amount of water
> flowing through that known circumference turns a 'paddle' or 'rudder'
> that in turn rotate the meter's numerals that reflect the speed of the
> 'paddle's or 'rudder's rotations. This way the amount of water
> supplied to your household is determined.
> 
> Most water meters do NOT require external power. The waterflow itelf
> supplies the energy to record the amount of water consumed.
> 
> 
> Your water bill will be determined depending on your family's or
> household's consumption of water.
> 
> *How does the water company or local authority know how much to bill you?*
> 
> They either send a person to read your meter or determine your bill
> based on your past average consumption.


http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5369345_water-meters-work.html


----------



## carverman

uptoolate said:


> T
> Lots of good advice on checking things. Like others, I would have guessed toilets. *The flappers just don't seem to last like the old days..*


I also found out that flappers rot out from the toilet tank clorine pucks inside the toilet tank. The clorine (not the blue stain) attacks the rubber flapper, and it won't seal as well when covering the tank discharge hole as well as when it was new. This caused a small leak in the toilet which could be heard like a drip drip.

I stopped using those blue clorine deodorizer pucks and haven't had any more flapper problems. 
Before that, I had to replace the flapper twice within a couple of years during use of those pucks.


----------



## mind_business

I say we all meet at KaeJS's house and look for the leak. I can tell we're all dying to find out


----------



## uptoolate

carverman said:


> I also found out that flappers rot out from the toilet tank clorine pucks inside the toilet tank. The clorine (not the blue stain) attacks the rubber flapper, and it won't seal as well when covering the tank discharge hole as well as when it was new. This caused a small leak in the toilet which could be heard like a drip drip.
> 
> I stopped using those blue chlorine deodorizer pucks and haven't had any more flapper problems.
> Before that, I had to replace the flapper twice within a couple of years during use of those pucks.


Yes good point. They can get rather brittle and almost warped so the seal is not there. I thought the idea about the chain getting kinked was a good suggestion too. This would be a tricky leak as it would be intermittent but would be big when it occurred. I think things were easier when I was growing up - dad was in charge of the flapper and there was only one toilet in the house!


----------



## carverman

uptoolate said:


> . *I think things were easier when I was growing u*p - *dad was in charge of the flapper *and there was only one toilet in the house!


This could be the beginning of a country song....but I won't go there.:biggrin:

Aw heck.....why not...

" when I was just little boy,
my father said to me..
hey son, don't let those flappers get you down,
just let me fix it before u pee... :biggrin:


----------



## My Own Advisor

Do you have trustworthy neighbours? Could they be taking your water? :apathy:

Any taps left open outdoors?


----------



## kcowan

We had a new apartment buidling built next door. During construction, we allowed them to use our water. Then a large bill caused the water company to investigate for us. They found the connection was still in place! Now the building buys water by the truckload. 500 pesos/8000 litres. $38


----------



## Addy

Perhaps a physical reading was never done when he moved in? Or if the water meter is inside the house, maybe the previous owner/tenant mis-reported a lower meter reading to avoid paying the true value of their water usage?


----------



## KaeJS

The moment you've all been waiting for...

I checked the meter yesterday at 7pm. Only 1 cubic metre of water was used. 

Was 2412, now 2413. 










Not sure why the picture keeps showing upside down


----------



## Sherlock

Hmmm... so "water" you gonna do now?


----------



## KaeJS

Sherlock said:


> Hmmm... so "water" you gonna do now?


^ That was very clever - and funny.

Whelp, I'm going to call the City tomorrow to follow up with the email I have sent them last week. Going to try and weasel out of this bill. Not entirely, but I refuse to pay the full amount. That is just ridiculous. I'm not paying a full years worth of water in one bill.


----------



## jamesbe

They read the meter from outside. Perhaps someone is faulty there?


----------



## Xoron

KaeJS said:


> Was 2412, now 2413.


Was anyone at home during that time?


----------



## KaeJS

All of my tenants were home for the entire period.

I was the only person not at home.


----------



## Xoron

KaeJS said:


> I was the only person not at home.


So you're the problem then :tongue-new:

If your previous readings were correct, then you were using about 4M^3 a day. This obviously wasn't the case for the past couple of days.


----------



## carverman

That reads: 02,413.691

The last 3 digits should be parts of a M3 . I would expect it would read from 000 to 999 and then increment the units counter
which is at 3 in your picture.

How long were you away since the last reading? 4 tenants over 3 days? By the time you factor in showers, toilet flushes, maybe a bath or two?, wash machine and dish washing sink usage.. so 300+ litres may not be that far off.

Each toilet flush is 12 litres. Each shower is 20 -30 litres depending on time spent. 
So if one was to extrapolate what the "normal usage" at 300 litres per day (and we also have to factor in your usage too..you mentioned you were away for 3 days?)..that should be around 350 liters per day. 

Over 30 days (month) that's about 10,500 litres (10.5 M3)

If the billing is every 60 days normally (with that usage,* it would be around 21 M3*) not 197 M3.

Using your water bill info: water: 21M3 x 1.54/M3 = $32.48
sewer: 21M3 x 1.59/M3 = $33.54

If the normal usage was 21M3 per billing then the bill should be around $66.02


----------



## mind_business

KaeJS said:


> The moment you've all been waiting for...
> 
> I checked the meter yesterday at 7pm. Only 1 cubic metre of water was used.
> 
> Was 2412, now 2413.


That wasn't a true test. Perhaps your neighbour's water bottling business took the weekend off like the rest of us. Check again in a few days.


----------



## carverman

I would suggest that he makes it a daily routine to check the water meter for few days and record the reading each day to the next billing cycle. 
Yes, it's a pain, to have to do that, but if the meter's external readout is malfunctioning, he won't know if the next bill comes in high. The readout sensor in the terminal may be the actual malfunctioning and
KaeJs is not going to know just looking at the inside visual meter. 

here's how the external readout works..



> Meter readers have always had a difficult job in areas where winters are severe, summers extreme or in areas plagued by hurricanes or wildfires. Many utility companies have brought their displacement meters into the 21st century by investing in remote reading technology.
> 
> *Electronic sensors are connected to the meter's register and then wired to a remote transmitter on the outer surface of the house.* The meter reader can walk down the street or down the interior of a block with a receiver and "read" the entire block's meters in the time it used to take to read just a few. Other utility companies have refined the process further by installing networks of "repeater stations" that receive readings from a group of homes on a regular schedule and then transmit them to a central receiver. If the receiver is linked to a computerized billing system, the work that used to take weeks for dozens of employees can be completed in minutes by just a few.


----------



## Karen

KaeJS said:


> Is there any kind of credit I may be able to receive from the city, or are they basically just going to send someone out to my house and say the meter is working and that I have to pay the fees?


As I mentioned in an earlier post, my municipal government does allow for a credit on one's water bill under specific circumstances. The municipality even provides a form (called a Leak Adjustment Request Form) that I had to fill out and submit for the consideration of the Utilities Department. In my case, I knew that the high water bill was related to an undetected leak in my hot water tank; in your case, you don't know what happened so it's not so straightforward, but you should definitely see if there's anything they can do to help.


----------



## carverman

Before they allow any adjustment, Karen..they will probably want to do an investigation first. 
This is different from your situation because the municpal water works can look up your previous consumption and realize that the higher water usage was due to a leakage in the hot water tank and be considered a one time occurance.

In KaeJs case, being a new home owner with the first bill, and having renters on the premises, they are going to require additional investigation, since the previous owner's water usage history may not apply to KaeJs.

KaeJs has to do "due dilegence" over the next month reading the water meter to find out WHAT is considered
normal daily/weekly consumption for 3 tenants? and himself. 

So he needs to determine first of all; what would be normal consumption per day/week/month, or there is a major leak, or a problem with the meter remote readout. 

If it's a problem with the meter remote readout (not the usage register inside), the water works will
adjust the bill based on 4 people in the house. If it's a leak inside the home...he may also be
able to get some adjustment but it all depends on where the leak is.


----------



## MoneyGal

Kae - you should probably take a picture, with a timestamp, of your water meter every day (or every few days) to demonstrate the readouts over time.


----------



## colossk

colossk said:


> Are you kidding me? If you can't afford to shower at home, and are worried about the costs of a quick 5-10 minute shower, you can't afford the place.. period. There's frugal and there's absolutely freaking ridiculous.
> 
> To the OP: For what it's worth, we are billed on a 90 day cycle. My last 2 water bills were billed $780 for the past 2 cycles (6 moths). We are a family of 5 with a pool and a hot tub that probably was filled 4x in that 6 month period (hot tub not pool). I have a huge lot that needed to be watered in the summer. We were doing laundry non stop (2+ loads/night on the longest/hottest sanitize setting) (2 of our kids were going thru potty training and are wearing underwear and having accidents daily plus accidents in their beds)
> 
> 
> 
> You have a leak or the meter was read wrong on closing or the actual end reading for this billing cycle


I kept seeing really low water bills so I decided to look up my bills since I was getting my taxes ready anyways and apparently I was out to lunch with those numbers. My last 3 water bills were, $204.12, $216.80 $146.99 each on a 90 day cycle. No idea where my previous numbers came from


----------



## carverman

I keep getting drawn back to this thread because my water/sewer charges are so "ridiculously" low compared
to yours and KaeJs. I have 2 "boarders" as well, but 2 cats don't take baths or flush toilets and they
certainly don't do dishes!
One spit wash per day per cat and they are done. :biggrin:

Colossk, I would expect that for a 90 day cycle with a family of 5, a pool to fill in the spring
and a hot tub, + watering the lawn..your water bill and sewer surcharges seem to be quite reasonable.

Filling that pool, hot tub or watering your lawn doesn't add waste water to the municipality sanitary sewer, so the muncipal
sewer treatment are benefitting from those that do on the sewer surcharge. 

I once challenged the city of Ottawa water dept on this, and asked if I could install a second
water meter for the outside taps because the water used outside was not going down the sewer.

They told me..sure go ahead and install it, but we will still bill you from the main one.


----------



## KaeJS

Meter is showing 2414 now. That's even after the Dishes were done and I hosted a New Years Party with 4 women and 5 males.

I called the city today. There was a 99 minute wait. I waited.

Finally got to the rep. Rep continued to tell me (in a rude way, might I add) that I had a leak. I told her several times I did not have a leak, that I have checked for leaks and that I know what I'm doing. I continually told her I was not the average fry in the school of newly born fish. She said I needed to pay the bill. I was not impressed.

She said she could send someone out from Public Works to check the meter. Says it costs $70 if they find nothing is wrong. I said "**** that" (22 year old language coming out now, my friends) "you're going to charge me $70 when I already know the problem isn't the meter? Guess what? When I fill a 1 litre empty carton of milk from my tap, and my meter increases by exactly 1 litre, why would I need one of your technicians to come out and test my water meter? I already know it calculates water properly"

I told her I wanted proof of the previous reading for when I moved into the home. She tells me she can't give out that information. (WTF?)

I ask to speak to a manager. She continues to tell me I have a leak.

At this point - I'm about ready to snap a bolt. No offense to the ladies on CMF, because you are all very intelligent and wonderful people. But I felt like I had some pretentious know it all chick on the other end of the phone that has probably never opened the back of a toilet in her life.

I stop playing nice and jump right to the chase.

1. "What's your name?"
2. "What's your manager's name?"

Then proceeded with:

"Listen, Mrs. RudeRep, I know how to check for leaks. I am not a moron. I _know_ I do not have a leak. What I am asking for is proof of a final reading on this property for when I purchased the home. If you can't provide me with that information, then you need to either:

A) Find someone who can get it for me, OR
B) Provide me with my other options

If you cannot assist, then I would like to be transferred to your manager immediately."

SO - She tells me that the manager is on lunch. I say that's fine. Transfer me anyway. 

She transfers me. I leave a long, detailed message. I provided my phone number and name at least 2 times. I explained my entire situation.

Guess what?

I've got no email response to the email I sent almost a week ago.
I also got no telephone call from the manager.

Fantastic.
How was your day?


----------



## mind_business

Ouch. Looks like you're going to have to talk to the Manager ... if they'll call you back LOL. You might have to go there in person. If that doesn't work, you can always present your case at the next City Council Meeting. I've seen it done before :encouragement: Actually, before you do that, contact Mayor Doug Craig to see if he can help.


----------



## Jon_Snow

Reading through this thread, my growing dissatisfaction with condo-living is suddenly somewhat tempered. :tongue-new: 

KaeJS, sympathies man... keep up the fight.


----------



## uptoolate

Feel for you! Sounds like one of my recent conversations with Rogers. Fortunately when you get someone having a bad day there you can usually call back and get someone different who will ultimately see it your way. Might not work that way with a municipal water department though. I wouldn't be surprised if you don't get too quick of a response as I'm sure that much of the staff is off for an extended period over the holidays. Good luck and remember - BREATHE deeply and count to 10 frequently! Easier said than done of course!


----------



## Four Pillars

Kae, after that call your name is probably on a whiteboard in the middle of their office with some nasty drawings around it.

Good luck with resolving your issue - you'll need it.


----------



## Plugging Along

Just remember stay calm, as that will get you further.

We had a similar thing happen with our cabin. Our monthly bill was almost the same as our neighbors, and we were only there on average 2 days a month. We turned unplugged/turned off everything we could and out neighbors averaged $150/month, us $120. We had them come out to check, paid them, and a seperate electrician to look. Nothing, so we had to continue paying. In the none winter months, we just turned off our master switch, which helped. 

Then last year, after 6 years, bc hydro changed out the meters to electric ones. Now, we average $40 a month including when we are there. We think it had to do with how the meters were initiall set up in our condo. We can't prove it, but at least now it's right.


My point is, if you have the time, then keep pushing.


----------



## Addy

KaeJS said:


> I've got no email response to the email I sent almost a week ago.
> I also got no telephone call from the manager.


KaeJS time to find out who your local city councillors are (and who the good ones are) and contact them with your issue. I've done this in the past probably three or four times over the past 10 years and every time it helped come to a resolution of some sort.

Good luck!


----------



## KaeJS

Thank you for all the helpful information everyone.

PA - Sorry to hear that you overpaid for 6 years! :hopelessness:

I have the time to keep pushing. It's $663. I have to work 7 days to make that much money.

I will be calling the manager again today to see if I can reach her. If not, then I guess I will contact the City Councillor for the area I live in within Cambridge.

Holiday mode or no holiday mode - that's no excuse. As a manager, you should be checking your voicemail and clearing all messages before you go home at night. Period.


----------



## onomatopoeia

I'd just like to add that even though your bill seems way too high, being rude and arrogant to a front line customer service agent is almost never going to help you out. She may have been in a bad mood, or not answered in a way that you wanted, but when you are rude she will immediatly stick to the company line and say "pay the bill".

I'm guessing that the problem was in closing and the final readout of the meter as has been discussed.

She probably can't give you the old reading because it is information that is in someone else's name and there are confidentiality issues.

If the lawyer didn't sort out the water upon closing, you might be stuck with this one.

Just remember to keep cool when dealing with customer service. yelling "manager manager manager" may work at a giant telco where the agent might not know the supervisor, but when dealing with smaller city departments there is a lot higher chance that the manager and agent work side by side in the same office, and likely talk about rude customers.


----------



## Homerhomer

You call the city first day after the holidays and expect to have everything done right away, sorry but you need to realign your expectations, you are dealing with government here, they don't operate like normal business, and even for normal business one may be so behind that it's not possible to deal with everything in one day.

You should have asked for manager the first time your message didn't result in any positive action from the rep, another rookie mistake.


----------



## Homerhomer

onomatopoeia said:


> I'd just like to add that even though your bill seems way too high, being rude and arrogant to a front line customer service agent is almost never going to help you out. .........................
> but when dealing with smaller city departments there is a lot higher chance that the manager and agent work side by side in the same office, and likely talk about rude customers.


+1


----------



## MoneyGal

I don't understand why you aren't calling your lawyer. How do you expect the city staff to know when your house changed hands etc.? Your closing lawyer is responsible for this, as has been laid out previously in the thread; and your closing lawyer is likely responsible for any oversights in this area. (Plus - by the way - his and his staff's calls and visits to the city water office get answers, because they deal with this stuff all the time, and their business depends on keeping effective relationships in place.)


----------



## Plugging Along

KaeJS said:


> Thank you for all the helpful information everyone.
> 
> 
> I will be calling the manager again today to see if I can reach her. If not, then I guess I will contact the City Councillor for the area I live in within Cambridge.
> 
> Holiday mode or no holiday mode - that's no excuse. As a manager, you should be checking your voicemail and clearing all messages before you go home at night. Period.


I have to disagree on your last line. Managers are people too. The last thing they may want to do is deal with an irate customer on their holidays especially if they do not have all the info and have to dig everything up.

Yes, this is a big concern for you, but it is not an emergency. Expecting them to answer you the same day after the holiday is really not a reasonable expectation. City managers are dealing with real emergencies such as citizens not having water due to main breaks, etc. That is when they should be expected to work overtime. 

Lets out it this way, would you want your city tax dollars to go towards paying managers to work overtime to answer billing questions? You don't work for free, so why expect that others do.


----------



## dogcom

When I had a problem with my property taxes a year and a half ago after my home sale, I went to the city on a normal working day, gave them my information and told them to look into it and have a manager call me back. A week later the manager called and we worked out a fair deal and my bill was reduced in half.


----------



## carverman

MoneyGal said:


> Your closing lawyer is responsible for this, as has been laid out previously in the thread; and your closing lawyer is likely responsible for any oversights in this area. (Plus - by the way - his and his staff's calls and visits to the city water office get answers, because they deal with this stuff all the time, and their business depends on keeping effective relationships in place.)


+1^


----------



## carverman

onomatopoeia said:


> I'm guessing that the problem was in closing and the final readout of the meter as has been discussed.
> *If the lawyer didn't sort out the water upon closing, you might be stuck with this one.*


No, not in my humble opinion. 
As mentioned a couple times in this thread already. When a property changes hands, the closing lawyer IS RESPONSIBLE for
ensuring that the meters are read on or before closing date. This is why you have a closing lawyer in the first place!
He is responsible for arranging with the sellers lawyer, all the details that go with closing.


----------



## onomatopoeia

carverman said:


> No, not in my humble opinion.
> As mentioned a couple times in this thread already. When a property changes hands, the closing lawyer IS RESPONSIBLE for
> ensuring that the meters are read on or before closing date. This is why you have a closing lawyer in the first place!
> He is responsible for arranging with the sellers lawyer, all the details that go with closing.


yeah you're completly right, I phrased it wrong

What I meant was that if the lawyer didn't get the meter read on closing then you might get stuck with it, since there is no proof on what you have/haven't used since closing. It gets into a he said/she said with the old owners, and its hard to prove who used what water.

maybe the lawyer will eat the cost, or negotiate with the city to bring it down, or negoatiate with the sale lawyers etc...

but if the meters werent read, the meters werent read. ANd then you get into trying to get money from the sellers months down the line, which is going to be tough.


----------



## carverman

Well I hate to get into all kinds of "possible scenarios"..and it looks like we are running away with this issue, before the OP has had a chance to sort it out and report back to us. 

In a nutshell, here is the role of your closing lawyer:
http://www.fiscalagents.com/newsletter/4lawyerrole.shtml

specifically..


> Taxes, utility bills and insurance premiums will be checked out, to determine if the seller has paid them up to date. If not, you would be liable for them.


If the oversight on the water meter reading and the large water bill was due because the closing lawyer did not do his job to ensure all property taxes and utility bills were paid before closing, resulting in a large water bill was because the meter was not read at time of closing/possession, I would be approaching the closing lawyer to either: 
a) pay the water bill, (minus 45 days of use by the current owner), from his own pocket if it was an error of omission on the closing lawyers part to fail to negotiate with the selling lawyer/seller, to get the meter
read on closing date
or failing that...
b) take it to small claims court. 
$663 dollars is a huge water bill for 45 days if there was no leak found, and the meter readout is accurate
according to that water account.


----------



## Four Pillars

carverman said:


> Well I hate to get into all kinds of "possible scenarios"..and it looks like we are running away with this issue, before the OP has had a chance to sort it out and report back to us.


He's probably arguing on the phone with his local city councillor as we speak...


----------



## MoneyGal

Google gives me this result: "Buyer soaked with vendor's final water bill" http://www.aaron.ca/columns/2008-05-17.htm


----------



## Argonaut

IMO, cash out and sell the house. Home ownership is a burden on a young single guy and you seem to be finding this.


----------



## KaeJS

^ My cash flow is $1500/month. 

That's a ridiculous idea.


----------



## ddkay

Jon_Snow said:


> Reading through this thread, my growing dissatisfaction with condo-living is suddenly somewhat tempered. :tongue-new:


+1 lol. My maintenance fee covers electricity water and heating. I never want to deal with this, or termites, or any other problems houses have (especially the older stock in TO).


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## dogcom

A condo can be far worse and even a nightmare paying high fees for management and repairs and such. Then there are the surprise huge bills to pay for all sorts of problems like water damage, sewer damage, poor copper pipes and I talked to some people put up in a hotel yesterday that said their sewer broke in the condo complex because of shifting land and the land is flat where they live. I live in BC and the condo horror stories go on and on and on.


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## ddkay

Thankfully most of ontario is geologically stable, the biggest risk is floods from the lake but an enormous landform will be completed in 2 years to prevent that. Management probz usually become apparent in the DD process, the best condo's have reserve fund studies done every 3 years and always have cash on hand and insurance to deal with emergency repairs as you describe without sending out special assessments.

Anyway, Kae is self-managing this house so he should just suck it up and pay the water bill then put additional cash aside for surprise bills, to keep things in shape and other emergencies like pests.


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## KaeJS

ddkay said:


> Anyway, Kae is self-managing this house so he should just suck it up and pay the water bill then put additional cash aside for surprise bills, to keep things in shape and other emergencies like pests.


I think this is what I'm going to have to do.
I've cut my entertainment budget this month by 75% and my food budget by 25%.


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## Daenerys Targaryen

Wow, I'm sorry to hear about this frustration, what is the given due date on the water bill?

My understanding is that the title insurance policy you would have purchased through your lawyer with the closing of your home covers any unforeseen debts which respect to your purchase that arise after closing and are not adjusted for on closing. I would think that if due diligence was not done and the previous owner had an existing debt on your home in the amount of hundreds of dollars’ worth of water which was consumed but not paid for then you should be able to make a claim through your title insurance policy to recover the expenses need to pay this bill.


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## carverman

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> I would think that if due diligence was not done and the previous owner had an existing debt on your home in the amount of hundreds of dollars’ worth of water which was consumed but not paid for then you *should be able to make a claim through your title insurance policy to recover the expenses need to pay this bill*.


Even if he bought title insurance (which is an extra expense), it would not cover outstanding utility bills.



> What Does Title Insurance Not Cover?
> When purchasing title insurance, it is important to read the policy and
> ask questions to be aware of the coverage that is provided. You also
> need to be aware of possible exclusions, which may include:
>  Known title defects (that were revealed to you before you purchased
> your property);
>  Environmental hazards (e.g. soil contamination);
>  Native land claims;
>  Problems that would only be discovered by a new survey or inspection
> of your property (e.g. the property is smaller than originally thought);
>  Matters that are not listed in public records (e.g. unrecorded liens and
> encroachments); and
>  Zoning bylaw violations from changes, renovations or additions to
> your property or land that you are responsible for creating.
> You need to carefully review your title insurance policy, as it may include
> additional exclusions and exceptions that are specific to your property.
> 
> *Title insurance does not provide compensation for non-title related issues.*
> It is not a home warranty or home insurance policy, and will not provide
> compensation for:
>  Damages due to flooding, fire or sewer backup;
>  General wear and tear of your home (e.g. replacing old windows, a
> leaky roof, or an old furnace);
>  Theft (e.g. a burglar breaks into your home and steals your television); and
>  Other losses or damages due to non-title related issues.
> Refer to your title insurance policy for a full list of exclusions, restrictions,
> and terms and conditions.


----------



## carverman

KaeJS said:


> I think this is what I'm going to have to do.
> I've cut my entertainment budget this month by 75% and my food budget by 25%.


So, you've decided just to pay it and not be bothered with any further investigation or contact with the closing lawyer? You've accepted the fact that you used up $663 worth of water and sewage for 45 days?
I guess that's what they call live and learn ..for next time.


----------



## KaeJS

I haven't accepted it - yet. But it looks like that's what I'll have to do.

The manager of the Water division called me today and said she was going to send someone out to do a final read, but if it matches, I'm out of luck. She said she would call me middle of next week to confirm. Of course they are going to say there is nothing wrong - at which point I will try to barter a deal. Maybe half the bill?

And yes, I did buy Title Insurance.

My Meter still reads 2414 - though, it's almost at 2415.


----------



## HaroldCrump

KaeJS said:


> The manager of the Water division called me today and said she was going to send someone out to do a final read, but if it matches, I'm out of luck.


But the current reading is useless, that is not the source of your problem.
The source of the problem is the starting reading from 2 months ago when you moved into the house.
That is the reading you need to know.

You have pretty much established that there is no leak, the meter seems to be working correctly, and your future bills are likely to be in line with consumption.
The only remaining suspect (said M. Hercule Poirot) is the reading when you moved in.

Do you know how long the house was unoccupied after the previous owner moved out and you moved in?
Is it possible he left a tap on or a leak on?
Or, perhaps, someone else (a neighbor) might have been siphoning off water while the house was unoccupied?


----------



## Homerhomer

You still haven't contacted the lawyer after so many more experienced and knowledgable members suggested for your do so?


----------



## MoneyGal

Did he possibly not use a closing lawyer? It is a mystery.

Also: some forms of title insurance cover unpaid utility bills, some do not. The link I posted before notes this; here is an excerpt from the article:

Kathleen Waters is the president and CEO of the Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Co. (LAWPRO), which is owned by the Law Society of Upper Canada. Until recently, she was president of TitlePLUS, a division of LAWPRO that operates its own title insurance company.

A word of disclosure is necessary at this point. I am an elected bencher (director) of the Law Society of Upper Canada, which owns LAWPRO and TitlePLUS. That company insures all Ontario lawyers for errors and omissions. As a bencher, I have no role in the operation of LAWPRO or TitlePLUS except to approve or not approve their annual reports, along with more than 50 other bencher colleagues. I do not sit on the board of LAWPRO and do not attend its meetings.

I asked Waters last week whether the TitlePLUS policy covers arrears resulting from final meter readings. In an email to me, she replied that, "the TitlePLUS policy does NOT have an exclusion built in for final utility bills as I have often seen in other title insurance policies. We simply say that we cover `liens ... arising as a result of public utility arrears ...'"

In the end, Donna got hit with paying the final water bill, plus fees and interest, which were really the responsibility of the former owners. Although the amount of the bill was relatively small in comparison to the price of the house, it was still a bitter pill to swallow.

Donna and her lawyer learned the hard way that not all title insurance policies are the same. If TitlePLUS had insured the transaction, the company would have paid the final water bill.

The lesson of her story is that purchasers should always review with their real estate lawyers what is and what is not covered under their title insurance policies.


----------



## Charlie

Is it possible to find out when the last meter reading before this was? Possibly this was a 'catch up' and prior ones were estimates? Don't know if it helps your case much, but it may give peace of mind. And it should be info the water co is willing to disclose without breaching anything.

I don't know that the lawyer would typically do much other than ensure the latest bill was paid.


----------



## HaroldCrump

Charlie said:


> I don't know that the lawyer would typically do much other than ensure the latest bill was paid.


The lawyer should be able to procure a copy of the last bill paid by the previous owner. That will show the previous reading.
Too bad that Kae doesn't have the meter reading from the day he moved in.
But getting a copy of the previous owner's last bill will certainly help.


----------



## MoneyGal

The Statement of Adjustments presented by the closing lawyer will itemize the adjustments to all utility bills at closing date, or at least it should. Kae should have this paperwork on hand - it likely will not show the meter reading, but will be based on a meter reading taken on or just before closing date. Or, at least, it should. Every property I've bought and sold in Ontario has included a Statement of Adjustments, but I suppose it's possible not every lawyer performs this service or, if you don't use a closing lawyer, perhaps you don't know to do this yourself.


----------



## Charlie

I'd think that last bill might say 'estimated reading' or something like that. So poor K is sadly screwed. Seems a bit unfair....but just another cost of home ownership. I'm more curious on the discrepancy than anything now.


----------



## kcowan

Since OP had confirmed that his usage is normal, the only conclusion is that it was an error on closing. Yet we are at 3 pages of discussion/speculation?

It is clear what OP must do! Why does he not do it?


----------



## carverman

MoneyGal said:


> Did he possibly not use a closing lawyer? It is a mystery.


Yes, this whole excessive water consumption episode is beginning to sound like a mystery novel or a jigsaw puzzle with
KaeJs holding some pieces and trying to get us to search to fill in the remaining missing pieces.

There is enough responses from the CMF regulars now to write a few chapters of the novel...which I will call:
"Who used the all the water Caper". :biggrin:




> In the end, Donna got hit with paying the final water bill, plus fees and interest, which were really the responsibility of the former owners. Although the amount of the bill was relatively small in comparison to the price of the house, *it was still a bitter pill to swallow.*





> The lesson of her story is that purchasers should always review with their real estate lawyers what is and what is not covered under their title insurance policies.


That is assuming that KaeJs in this matter:
1) actually had title insurance
2) had a competent closing lawyer
3) had done followup reading of the water meter (how many new home owners do that anyway?)
4) the municipal water works had done a reading when he submitted an online form that he was the new owner
5) the water meter readout is working correctly
6) the water meter reader "robo" actually entered the correct reading into his handheld proximity reader
7) it was not a clerical or computer error at the water works billing dept
8) the neigbour was not using the unrestricted front outside water tap to water his lawn, or fill his pool 
or use the back yard tap to make a skating rink for his kids...while the house was not occupied between the seller moving out and KaeJs moving in
Note: if your neighbour uses your outside tap (unauthorized) to water his lawn or whatever other purpose.
you are still responsible for the water used recorded on your water meter!
9) actual date of possession
10 (CMF you can fill in this one)
11 and this one as well....


----------



## carverman

Charlie said:


> I'd think* that last bill might say 'estimated reading' or something like that*. So poor K is sadly screwed. Seems a bit unfair....but just another cost of home ownership. I'm more curious on the discrepancy than anything now.


Uh????
If you look at the photo of his water bill (go back to the beginning pages and look for the picture KaeJs took of his $663 water bill and the actual reading of consumption that the bill was calculated on it reads:

Previous reading:2162 Current reading: 2359

Yup..that 167 cubic meters consumed in the 45 days.


----------



## MoneyGal

Except it isn't 100% clear that the previous reading date is the same as the start of the billing period. It just says "previous read." If the read was taken at the start of the billing period, why is it not shown on the bottom right-hand portion of the bill? It should be. 

That bill reads to me like "previous reading" [at some unspecified time in the past] and "current reading." I don't necessarily see that the previous reading date = the start of the billing period.


----------



## carverman

MoneyGal said:


> Except it isn't 100% clear that the previous reading date is the same as the start of the billing period. It just says "previous read." If the read was taken at the start of the billing period, why is it not shown on the bottom right-hand portion of the bill? It should be.


You are good M.G. to point that out. There should be a date associated with the previous reading and the current reading.
The dates of the readings should be on the bill, but in any case the municipal water works should have a record of them
on their meter reading collection computer file..or the billing data file.

So he should clarify that first with the water dept.
1. When was the previous reading taken?
2. When was the final reading taken before his possession?
3. When was the current reading taken.
If something does not "add up" between those 3 points..he has a case, and doesn't necessarily have to "suck it up!"


----------



## Lephturn

mind_business said:


> Well, when you come to the realization that it's one of your toilets that's acting up, this will be the best $35 you'll spend for a repair as a homeowner.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.ca/product/universal-complete-toilet-repair-kit/959694


Awesome link, thanks! I skimmed this thread before I went away for christmas, so I shut the water off on my toilets before I went away and checked the tanks when I returned - one of them has a leaky flapper valve since the tank was completely empty when I got back. I think reading this board just saved me several hundred dollars at least. Going to Home Depot on the way home to get one today. Thanks!

Here I thought my increased water bill had to do with having 3 children in less than 3 years. Ok maybe that has something to do with it....


----------



## carverman

You don't need to replace everything though..it all depends on what is wrong with the toilet.

There are two types of problems I have discovered.

1. The rubber flapper valve gets hard and doesn't seal properly..that will cause constant water loss and a "running toilet" which is obvious. 
CTC or H-D also sell the flapper by itself....and that is about a 1 minute job to replace.
But you need to diagnose the problem to the flapper valve. Sometimes it's just the chain that is binding on something.

2. The float-shutoff water valve is not shutting off due to mechanical rubbing of the old style float and arm,
or the valve itself is not shutting off the water flow when the float is at the proper level in the tank. That will
cause the toilet to "run on" and the water wasted will go down the safety overflow tube..(the tall tube),not into the actual toilet, so you will not see the water rising up in the bowl. That is a safety feature to prevent toilets overflowing. 

In that case, yes, the water valve/float needs to be replaced.


----------



## Karen

carverman said:


> Before they allow any adjustment, Karen..they will probably want to do an investigation first.
> This is different from your situation because the municpal water works can look up your previous consumption and realize that the higher water usage was due to a leakage in the hot water tank and be considered a one time occurance.
> 
> In KaeJs case, being a new home owner with the first bill, and having renters on the premises, they are going to require additional investigation, since the previous owner's water usage history may not apply to KaeJs.
> 
> KaeJs has to do "due dilegence" over the next month reading the water meter to find out WHAT is considered
> normal daily/weekly consumption for 3 tenants? and himself.
> 
> So he needs to determine first of all; what would be normal consumption per day/week/month, or there is a major leak, or a problem with the meter remote readout.
> 
> If it's a problem with the meter remote readout (not the usage register inside), the water works will
> adjust the bill based on 4 people in the house. If it's a leak inside the home...he may also be
> able to get some adjustment but it all depends on where the leak is.


Somehow I missed your reply earlier, Carverman, but I wanted to say that, of course you're right. My situation was completely different from KaeJS' case, to the point that I shouldn't even have brought up my case. I guess I was just answering his question about whether relief was available from the municipality in some circumstances.


----------



## thebomb

Lephturn said:


> Awesome link, thanks! I skimmed this thread before I went away for christmas, so I shut the water off on my toilets before I went away and checked the tanks when I returned - one of them has a leaky flapper valve since the tank was completely empty when I got back. I think reading this board just saved me several hundred dollars at least. Going to Home Depot on the way home to get one today. Thanks!
> 
> Here I thought my increased water bill had to do with having 3 children in less than 3 years. Ok maybe that has something to do with it....


Well KaeJs you have helped a bunch of us here. I too inspected the toilet tank/flapper because of this thread and found an issue with my downstairs toilet! Thank you for your public service announcement.


----------



## kcowan

Our master bathroom developed a leaky flapper valve. DW alerted me and I had a look and it needed a new valve. Before I could get to Home Depot, we discovered a leak in the effluent connection. Rather than just get a new seating valve, we went with a new low flow toilet (one piece with the soft handling toilet seat). It was time.


----------



## Maybe Later

FWIW I had a kinked chain on a flapper valve empty a 1200 gallon cistern in a few hours. It ran my system dry and cost me an impeller on my pump (acreage). Wiggling the handle it came un-kinked and sealed perfectly. If this had happened in our previous place in the city a significant amount of water would have been consumed, quite possibly with no one the wiser. Have that chain kink a few times overnight over a month and it would add up quick.


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## carverman

13 pages on the "Great high water bill caper"...and we still haven't got all the info from KaeJs yet. There appears to be enough material to write a short mystery novel on..'holy smoke!..look at this exorbitant water bill I got!"..
but so far the truth about what happened...is still eluding us....c'mon KaeJs...we all want to know now. 

Somewhere between the truth and the mystery.there has to exist a dimension called reality.


----------



## Cal

KaeJS said:


> I haven't accepted it - yet. But it looks like that's what I'll have to do.
> 
> The manager of the Water division called me today and said she was going to send someone out to do a final read, but if it matches, I'm out of luck. She said she would call me middle of next week to confirm. Of course they are going to say there is nothing wrong - at which point I will try to barter a deal. Maybe half the bill?
> 
> And yes, I did buy Title Insurance.
> 
> My Meter still reads 2414 - though, it's almost at 2415.


They may be able to calculate that an incorrect meter reading was done at the itme of sale, if previous owners cannot be contacted to pay it, your title insurance should cover that. The water division would probably have access to the previous owners water bills and meter readings to calculate their average monthly consumption.

I am doubtful a lawyer would be feasable for a $600 bill.


----------



## MoneyGal

Utility bills are specifically excluded from most forms of title insurance. 

I'm participating just to keep the mystery alive! One day Kae will come back and enlighten us! Or perhaps he's on eternal hold with his city's water billing department!


----------



## carverman

Hmmm...the last meter reading was 2012/12/14 (2359)
now it's almost 2415....that's about 56 cu meters (56,000 liters of water used in 21 days..
(November 14 to Jan 4 2013)...17 days. If my math works out correctly, his current water usage is 56/17 = 2.66 M3 per day.
That's 2,666 liters of water per day.
If that is still true for his next water bill..it will be 60 days x2.66m3 = 159.9 (160 m3)...yow! that means almost as much water will
be used as in his first bill (167m3)


KaeJs..are you ready for another $660 water bill?


----------



## Toronto.gal

carverman said:


> KaeJs..are you ready for another $660 water bill?


Meanie. :tongue-new:


----------



## carverman

Toronto.gal said:


> Meanie. :tongue-new:


Well reality bites. Yes, I may have been a "bit harsh" with my calculations on his next water bill. :biggrin: 

He did mention that when he came back, the water meter "hadn't moved..much" and still was on the same cubic meter reading when he went away...but if he has used 56 cubic meters since his last bill,
and 43 days of usage remain on his next bill are unknown, it could be substantially higher than he
expects, even if the usage over the next 43 days is 0.5 cu meter per day. (56 m3 + 21 m3 = 77 m3).

If that is the case, then it's only:
$120 for the water and $122 for the sewer.


----------



## MoneyGal

I just opened my water bill. We have four people in the family. Total consumption over 22 days was 5.3m3, or 2630 litres per day. We are not water misers; I do a lot of laundry and we run the dishwasher every day.


----------



## Spudd

MoneyGal, I think your math is off, or you have a typo in one of your figures. 5.3m3 = 5300L .. so you would have used 240L/day over 22 days.


----------



## MoneyGal

Typo. I'm eating lunch, reading the New York Times, writing an article for work, listening to a podcast, and negotiating iPad use rules with my children. :stupid: Thanks!


----------



## Mall Guy

so, no disrespect to KaeJS, but 14 pages on a water bill . . . I'm starting to miss the guy with the barn in his backyard . . . and Lucy !!!

BTW, in addition to the whole running toilet thing, the outside tap (as mentioned) is a likely source . . . we once had a commercial tenant, who once we installed a check meter and were billing individual usage, found that they had a garden hose that was running 24/7 for who knows how long . . . however check meters are expensive, unless you know a friendly plumber who could lend you one !


----------



## carverman

Mall Guy said:


> *the outside tap (as mentioned) is a likely source* . . . we once had a commercial tenant, who once we installed a check meter and were billing individual usage, found that they had a garden hose that was running 24/7 for who knows how long . . .


Had that happen to a next door neighbour. He had an backyard outside tap with those built in shutoffs inside the tap, (that shut the water flow inside the house). It drains the tap, so that the water doesn't freeze on the outside part of the tap,where it can continue freezing and damage a copper pipe. 

Well, one winter, he forgot to remove the hose attached to the tap. 
The hose froze, the water inside the outside tap froze (because the water couldn't drain), and he had a big water leak and mess inside his wall where the actual tap and water pipe was. Fortunately he caught it because there was water all over the floor inside his basement, but he had to call
an emergency plumber to fix the leak.


----------



## KaeJS

I'll keep you guys all up to date on what happens.

My meter currently reads:

2,415.976

So, my water usage is definitely not in line with my bill showing 197,000 litres used. But, we already know this. I'm waiting for a call back from the manager to see what she says. At that time, if she says I need to pay it, I will try to barter some sort of agreement. I know it's not likely, but I've heard that it's been done in the past.

At any rate - the bill was due today and I did not pay it.


----------



## HaroldCrump

KaeJS said:


> At any rate - the bill was due today and I did not pay it.


Be careful, Kae.
You can pay the bill _and_ continue to dispute it.
Unpaid utility bills can have bad consequences.
Your service could get cut off, it can affect credit, penalty charges and interest will be applied, etc.


----------



## KaeJS

I plan on paying it. Just not yet. I'll wait until the manager calls, then I'll make the payment.


----------



## Homerhomer

What did the lawyer said about the whole situation?


----------



## crazyjackcsa

I;ll admit, I haven't read all 14 pages of this melodrama. I've kept tabs on it though, checking in now and again. 

Couple of questions? Couldn't this have all been due to a misread meter? That's happened to me in the past and always gets straightened out on the next bill.
Is involving a lawyer over $600 really worth it? And as a follow-up, isn't a late payment on a bill just causing more trouble and grief? You're going to be hit with late charges which you will then have to fight.


----------



## Homerhomer

crazyjackcsa said:


> I;ll admit, I haven't read all 14 pages of this melodrama. I've kept tabs on it though, checking in now and again.
> 
> 
> Is involving a lawyer over $600 really worth it?.


The real estate lawyer who did the purchase of the property couple of months ago could have all the answers, it could be as simple as $500 credit for utilities on the statement of adjustments, or the lawyer could be the source of the problem.


----------



## MoneyGal

But apparently we'll never know.....


----------



## KaeJS

Never contacted the lawyer.

Got the statement from the previous owner. Previous owner's statement says the same thing as mine, 2,1xx.

I went down to the water division today and paid my bill in full, so I did not get a late payment penalty.

They are still going to send someone out to read the meter again - even though that's a waste of time. I'll just wait until I get the final call from the manager.

Stupid question, but does the city actually make a profit from my water bill?

Could they not give me, say, a $300 credit, and not be "losing" any money?


----------



## carverman

KaeJS said:


> Got the statement from the previous owner. Previous owner's statement says the same thing as mine, 2,1xx.


Then something is(was) wrong. If the previous owner's water meter reading was 2169 (21xx) and they sent you a bill indicating a reading of 2359..
1. Someone used an excessive amount of water in those 45 days. When did you first occupy the property? When did you change the ownership of the property/billing with the water dept?
2. The meter reading was entered wrong or there was a calculation/billing error.
3. There was a serious leak (like a running toilet)..you mentioned that you did notice a toilet running.
Was that done during the billing period?



> Stupid question, but does the city actually make a profit from my water bill?
> Could they not give me, say, a $300 credit, and not be "losing" any money?


They might have a one time forgiveness clause, as long as you can prove it was a running toilet or a serious leak where a PLUMBER was called in to make the repair. You would need to have the repair bill handy to show them that that was the case. 

I don't think the muncipalities water/sewage billing is set up to make a direct profit. It costs the city money to treat the water, send it to your meter and they are responsible for fixing any leaks in the water main system, so it costs them money to maintain and repair.
Same with the sewage charge. Every litre of water used technically goes down into the sewer as sewage to be treated at a treatment plant. There are costs associated with sewage treatment..as well as removing "solid matter" from the sewage and allowing the treated water to flow back into the environment. That is a huge cost..if you consider all the toilets being flushed in a city.

Any money left over between the water/sewage treatment would more than likely be kept in an emergency or contigency fund for use by the water/sewage dept.


----------



## Toronto.gal

While searching for some information on Cambridge University, I came across this link, and of course, guess who came to mind?

*'We received our water bill this month for the amount of $620.19.'*

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/opinion/letters/article/1504999

You're not alone, so feel better?


----------



## KaeJS

How can they prove 197,000 litres of water went into the sewage system?

What if I admit to using 197,000 litres of water, but say that I spewed it all over my lawn?


----------



## KaeJS

Toronto.gal said:


> While searching for some information on Cambridge University, I came across this link, and of course, guess who came to mind?
> 
> *'We received our water bill this month for the amount of $620.19.'*
> 
> http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/opinion/letters/article/1504999
> 
> You're not alone, so feel better?


I don't feel better,

But thank you for the ammunition. :biggrin::encouragement:


----------



## ChrisR

Have you ever tried turning on the shower, and using the steam generated to steam the wrinkles out of your clothes? Let me tell you, it takes a long time... a bloody long time! (Not like 30 or 40 minutes long... like hours!)

Call me a cynic, but I just don't understand how you can live with 3 total strangers and NOT assume that one of your tenants just used a crazy amount of water.

Looking back at the numbers on the first page:
- in the first 45 days you owned the house, you consumed 197,000 liters (or 4400 liters per day).
- in the next 13 days you consumed 53,000 liters (or 4100 liters per day).
- On the 53rd day you presumably talked to all of your tenants about their water usage.
- In the next 11 days you used 4000 liters (or 360 liters per day).

So you have a tenant that was using a crazy amount of water while you were away at work. Steaming his clothes. Taking four hour showers. Leaving the tap on for the relaxing sound of running water... or God knows what else. Now, he's laying low while you play water usage police.


----------



## carverman

KaeJS said:


> How can they prove 197,000 litres of water went into the sewage system?
> 
> What if I admit to using 197,000 litres of water, but say that I spewed it all over my lawn?


It doesn't matter to them, what you do with the water. You can use it to sprinkle your lawn, fill a swimming pool or make a backyard skating rink for the kids (if you had any that is). The assumption on their part is that that 197,000 litres found it's way into the sewer system and you are charged accordingly for it.

Even a leaking toilet or frozen leaking outside tap is still metered water. About the only way you can prove it was a leak was to have plumbing bill handy and use it as evidence that it was a leak. Good luck with that one too.

An estimated bill (even if they can't get a reading) is still recorded on the meter's inside register, so that is a weak argument, because they can send somebody over to look at the meter inside (it's their meter) and take a reading of it outside and if the two readings jive, then as far as they are concerned..the water was used by YOU ...whether it was all used by you and your tenants ( or just partly), is something that is hard to prove now. The meter should have been read on possession day and the water dept should have been contacted of your reading and the fact that your were a new owner of the property.

But keep careful records from now on of the meter reading inside and verify it against the next few bills.


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