# Kicking out a Tenant without a Lease Agreement



## KaeJS

Hi CMF,

Quick question for you folks.

First thing is first: I am in Ontario.

If I have a tenant living in my home and a rental agreement/lease was never drafted (aka, purely a cash deal) and this tenant does not pay the rent due and refuses to pay this rent, what is the protocol/process for evicting this tenant?

I am a little confused on the laws.

Specifically, if an agreement was not drafted or signed by either party, am I able to just give the tenant a notice to Pay or Quit?

If that is not the case, must I go through the entire legal process of a full eviction, even though a lease agreement was never signed?

Lastly - If I have 2 tenants in one house and would like one of those tenants out because I would like to use the house for "my own use", must I serve this notice to BOTH tenants, or can I serve this notice to only one tenant? Basically, can I use this law as a "cop-out" to get rid of one tenant but not the other?


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## summer

This sounds like a bad situation. You let a tenant move in with no lease or rental agreement??


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## stardancer

Lease or not, you still have to give proper notice (60 days). If you want to go the eviction route, you have to follow the steps

If you want to use the house for your own use, you must give 60 days notice if it is a month-to-month agreement; lease clauses would apply if it was a lease agreement. And you must give each tenant his/her own notice. If you give notice that you will be using the place for your own use, then do not do so, the tenant(s) can take you to the LT Board.

http://ontariolandlords.org/
http://landlordrescue.ca/


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## MoneyGal

Are they a tenant or a "roommate"? Do they share kitchen facilities with you?


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## KaeJS

They share a kitchen and the main floor, yes. They do have their own bathroom, but they use the other bathrooms as well (I don't know if that counts).

But we definitely do share a kitchen and a common area.


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## MoneyGal

OK, the Landlord and Tenant Act does not apply; you are running a rooming house. See "Who is covered by the Residential Tenancies Act?" http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/en/Key_Information/STEL02_111462.html

Read the section on roommates, here: http://www.ltb.gov.on.ca/en/Law/STDPROD_092361.html


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## andrewf

Oh, Kae....


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## Four Pillars

andrewf said:


> Oh, Kae....


Haha +1.


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## Chris L

Yup, if you share kitchen and bath with a person, the tenant protection act does not apply. Not sure what the procedures are in this case, but the board isn't involved.

ASK this person to leave face-to-face. Politely. If they ask why, and it's not obvious, be polite. Maybe don't spell it all out in all it's nastiness, but still. Use some common sense and just move the problem along without pissing people off. Pissed off people, never help. Give them a reasonable amount of time to find a new place, offer to help them move their stuff, etc.


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## marina628

Give them a couple weeks or so to get out then tell them the police will be at door to get them out for trespassing.They have no legal rights to the house ,not ideal but it has worked in the past in Ontario.Last year my daughter rented a room from a lady and the other student was a handful and she did this one and in 1992 I had to do this as well but only after they did $4000 damage to one of our cars..Most times they will just pack up and leave.


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## KaeJS

MoneyGal said:


> OK, the Landlord and Tenant Act does not apply;


Thanks, MG.

I found these links to be of some help:

http://www.landlordselfhelp.com/education/forum_q_a.asp?sub_id=38&sub_catid=1&sub_name=Sharing%20a%20kitchen%20and/or%20bathroom

http://www.landlordselfhelp.com/facts/2007_sharing_kitch_bath.pdf

I think I am all set.

Today, I put in 4 locking door knobs (with keys), ensured there was cable tv in all the rooms, and dressed up everything nicely.

I will be putting my ad out for tenants tomorrow.


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## Dmoney

Kae, are you presently dealing with a bad tenant or just prepping in case you have to?

Hope it's the latter. 

Good luck and screen carefully


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## KaeJS

Just prepping for the future. Hopefully things go smoothly.

There's a first time for _(almost)_ everything, though. :biggrin:


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## KaeJS

In the experience of other landlords, is it better to undercut the market price in order to have more tenants to choose from/screen, or is it better to set your price higher from the start, so as to not "lose out" on money/have to worry about increasing the rent at a future point in time?

Here is my current advertisement:

http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-real-estate-room-rental-roommates-Room-for-Rent-All-inclusive-Move-in-immediately-for-a-deal-W0QQAdIdZ431161210


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## MoneyGal

Hmmm. That question seems a little like asking, "is it better to advertise my job at a low starting wage, so I'll get applicants who are more desperate for money?"

You will probably get "more" tenants to choose from if you advertise at a lower price, but they likely won't be "the same" tenants as you'd get if you advertise at a higher price.


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## Four Pillars

MoneyGal said:


> You will probably get "more" tenants to choose from if you advertise at a lower price, but they likely won't be "the same" tenants as you'd get if you advertise at a higher price.


+1. Kae, you should really take advantage of Berubeland's site which is a good resource for new landlords. You seem to be trying to wing it.


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## KaeJS

MoneyGal said:


> You will probably get "more" tenants to choose from if you advertise at a lower price, but they likely won't be "the same" tenants as you'd get if you advertise at a higher price.


You are 100% Correct. I feel like the market price is approximately $400-$500/month. I am currently listed at $500/month, which I sometimes feel is on the high end. Due to the fact I am in Cambridge, ON, which is now more "out of the city" but still in the city... You can definitely see the price differences in rent. In Mississauga, I would have sold both rooms by now, as there is more people and $500 is a pretty decent deal with what I am offering. I feel like the market is just not as "hot" in Cambridge.



Four Pillars said:


> +1. Kae, you should really take advantage of Berubeland's site which is a good resource for new landlords. You seem to be trying to wing it.


Been to Berube's site quite a bit, and yes, it is very helpful. I don't feel I am winging it, I've just never done it before so I don't know what to expect. I would feel a lot more comfortable buying stocks :encouragement:


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## marina628

Very nice set up especially the desks in the room for students.


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## Potato

KaeJS said:


> I feel like the market price is approximately $400-$500/month.


Where did you get that feeling? In London (the market I know best), a place like this (shared accomodation, half hour drive to the university) would have gone for more like $350. $500/rm would only be for those houses within (short) walking distance of the university. Taking a quick look at the other listings on Kijiji, there are a bunch around the $450-500 price point that are way closer to UW/WLU than you are; closer to your radius there are some 3-bedroom townhouses for just over $1000 (a couple/group of friends would have to pay utilities on top, but have more space and privacy). Were you getting $500/mo from your previous tenants?

I don't think you should under-price it, though -- screening is hard work and you don't need to make more of it for yourself... 

I think the key question is: who's the target market here? Given the location I don't think it's going to be very attractive to university students. You're close to the downtown campus of Conestoga, but they don't seem to have much going on there. It's only 10 minutes to the Doon campus, which is larger... have you tried posting on their off-campus site (https://www.places4students.com/Index.aspx)? Do you have any friends/co-workers who might want to room with you, rather than trying to find strangers? Have you tried directing your ads to Cambridge Memorial Hospital or Cambridge Centre Mall? I'm just not sure who out there is looking for shared accommodation that isn't a student...


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## Rusty O'Toole

KaeJS said:


> In the experience of other landlords, is it better to undercut the market price in order to have more tenants to choose from/screen, or is it better to set your price higher from the start, so as to not "lose out" on money/have to worry about increasing the rent at a future point in time?
> 
> Here is my current advertisement:
> 
> http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-real-estate-room-rental-roommates-Room-for-Rent-All-inclusive-Move-in-immediately-for-a-deal-W0QQAdIdZ431161210


After being in the rental business since the seventies, my motto is lower your rent don't lower your standards.

Everyone is a hanging judge of rent. Tenants will move across town to save $100 or even $50. In your case if you are $25 to $50 below market rents for a room you should have lots of applicants to pick from.

If you are not getting quality applicants after a week or 2, lower the rent. You don't have to lower it very much.

The only thing worse than trying to get a good tenant in... is trying to get a bad tenant out. So don't take chances. If someone gives you a funny feeling, or if they don't quite measure up to your standards of credit worthiness the answer is no.


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## Berubeland

I'd also advise to get an application and get a copy of people's ID. I wouldn't do credit checks on people for a rooming house unless you use it to verify their past residence or employment. 

Also I'd be very careful about applicants on Ontario Works or disability. Contrary to what they may say, even if they do get the government to mail their rent directly to you, they cancel at any time.


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## KaeJS

Thank you for that advice, Berube.

I've got one guy moving in tomorrow and another coming to look at the place on Sunday.

Both seem to be okay, and both hold full time jobs, so let's hope everything goes smoothly.


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## KaeJS

Just had a thought:

Would it be wise to get Rogers SmartHome Monitoring for the house?

Any landlords done this?

For approximately $25/month, it seems like pretty cheap security.

Edit: After looking into it further, it actually looks like more of a waste of money.


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## marina628

The lady who rented to my daughter last year had issues with the other girl having friends sleeping there all the time ,one time at 2am her friend came into the house with the house key she had made,scared the crap out of the landlord and my daughter .I would address these sort of things as well as designate space in the cupboards and fridge for each roommate.You probably don't want 3-4 bottles of ketchup on the go but if you bought yourself a nice porterhouse steak and came home to find it was already gone you would not be so happy


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## KaeJS

marina628 said:


> The lady who rented to my daughter last year had issues with the other girl having friends sleeping there all the time ,one time at 2am her friend came into the house with the house key she had made,scared the crap out of the landlord and my daughter .I would address these sort of things as well as designate space in the cupboards and fridge for each roommate.You probably don't want 3-4 bottles of ketchup on the go but if you bought yourself a nice porterhouse steak and came home to find it was already gone you would not be so happy


The key scenario is scary!

Yes, definitely do not need that much ketchup on the go. I've already designated certain cupboards/spaces for people and different shelving within the fridge/freezer for roomies. I have my own fridge downstairs, so most of my stuff is there. Food is not the biggest deal, unless of course, like you said, expensive stuff goes missing.

I wouldn't care if someone ate a can of soup, but if someone drank my litre of chocolate milk.... I would be angry!

I will let you all know how the move-in goes tomorrow! :biggrin:


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