# No post dated rent cheques



## Chris L

Tenant refuses to provide post dated rent cheques. The protection act does not mandate that he does. What do you do as a landlord to provide incentive for him to do so?


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## Berubeland

I have several methods of dealing with this issue. 

1 - I do not pick up rent checks. It is actually physically impossible for me to pick up all the rent checks in a timely manner. 

2 - It is the tenant's responsibility to get the rent to me by the 1st. 

3 - They can pay anyway they like. 

4 - They can mail their checks, they can use etransfer, they can deposit directly to my bank account, they can use flying bats for all I care as long as I get the money to put in the landlord's account... it's all good. 

The important fact here is that you the landlord must NEVER pick up the rent. This sets a precedent where you will always have to pick up the rent. It also sets a precedent where your tenant is not a responsible adult. 

For the most part leases are useless documents. This is one area where you can actually use the lease and make it stick. After you have set a payment method...that is the payment method you are stuck with. Write in your lease how you want to get paid and then don't change it. Even when I get post dated checks I still write that the tenant is responsible for paying me by check to my address. This way in a year from now when my initial checks run out... it's still their job to pay me.


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## andrewf

You can offer a discount. Guessing you don't want to do that.

Tenants don't have to give post-dated cheques. Good thing, too, because idiot landlords have a habit of depositing them early. It's happened to me once (I give a few cheques at a time) and to one of my coworkers (the last 7 cheques out of 12). Banks will clear cheques. Post-dating offers no protection. Don't give your landlord a stack of cheques.


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## Just a Guy

I really like email money transfers. It can be done anytime, automated, and the funds have to be there so no bounced cheques. Also there is a receipt generated automatically.


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## Chris L

My tenant used to provide rent cheques for around 5-6 years but recently since the rent was increased, decided, I guess, to make it less convenient for me (last two months). I haven't mentioned anything, figuring he'd at some point, provide the cheques. But now I doubt he will (passive aggressive I think). 

I'm going to leave a notice on his door that I won't be picking cheques up anymore and it's up to him to get them to me on time. The precedent was set over the last 6 years as you say, so I'll go with that.

I've heard people offer a rental unit and then when they sign say that there are two prices. One is $100 less which is the option where they provide post dated cheques. They get to decide when they sign a lease which they prefer. Obviously, one price is simply inflated to reflect a higher cost than the landlord would otherwise charge to demonstrate how much it actually costs to track down rent each month. I think it was $100-$200 extra for not providing cheques. I didn't know that trick on the outset and prefer to follow the law.

As far as cashing post dated cheques early, I think that falls along the responsibility of the bank, which is to verify the dates on the cheques?

I'll leave a note and see if that helps convince him.


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## Chris L

When is the rent actually due? When is it considered late?

Is it only late by the end of the day on the first? Or is it late only if the 1st has elapsed?

Found my answer so figured I would update:

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/reho/yogureho/fore/reagma/reagma_003.cfm
When Is the Rent Due?

Rent is due on the actual day stipulated in the rental agreement. In most places in Canada, rent is considered late on the day after it is due. For example, if your rental agreement states that rent is due on the first day of the month, the rent would be considered late from the second day of the month onward until it is paid. If the rental agreement stipulated that rent was due on the fifteenth of the month, then the rent would be considered late from the sixteenth day of the month onward. In many jurisdictions, landlords commonly impose a reasonable penalty for late rent. (For specifics, see the Provincial and Territorial Fact Sheets).

In some provinces, the law requires that landlords give a grace period of up to 3 days to allow the tenant to pay. In other provinces, however, landlords are within their rights to notify the tenant as soon as rent is late that they wish to terminate their rental agreement because of rent arrears. Once a tenant pays the rent, a notice to terminate their rental agreement would no longer be valid.

It is in the tenant's best interest to pay the rent on time because frequent late payment could be grounds for non-renewal of a rental agreement.


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## nathan79

A tenant refusing to provide post-dated cheques may be a sign that they're struggling to come up with the rent each month.

My first two tenants were always good at mailing cheques well in advance. The money was always there on the 1st when I deposited them, and I never had an NSF.

My third tenant was very inconsistent. Sometimes I would receive the cheque early, other times they wouldn't even mail it until after the 1st. I eventually found out that they weren't sending the cheque until payday; otherwise they couldn't guarantee that the money would be in the account when I cashed it on the 1st.

With my current tenant I've given up on cheques altogether because it wasn't worth the hassle. The only way I can get the rent reliably is to pick it up in cash. But I'm not in a hurry to find new tenants.


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## Rusty O'Toole

Berubeland is right. You are in business just like Hertz rent a car, Walmart, the electric company etc. They don't run around collecting their bills and neither should you.

You must make it plain that the tenant has to get the rent to you on or before the due date. It is up to them how they do it. I do not let tenants come to my house. They can give me post dated checks, electronic transfer as you would pay any other bill online, or deposit the money to my account at any Scotabank in Canada.

Incidentally you should make sure every rental has a different rent. If you have 2 houses at $1500 a month, make one $1500.01. This way you can tell at once who has paid in and who has not. Explain this to the tenant, that they must deposit the exact amount or their rent payment may be credited to someone else. They won't forget it.

If I do not get the money on time, an N4 goes out at once. If the rent is due on the 1st I prepare it on the 2nd and mail it on the 3d. I do this every time, recently I evicted a tenant who was late 9 months out of 11. This record of late payment, and paying only under threat of eviction, helped convince the judge as to who was taking advantage of who. You will need this record if you ever have to go to court.


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## james4beach

Tenants do not have to provide post dated cheques.

There are good reasons for them not to. One as mentioned is that sometimes landlords cash them early, or unpredictably, and banks don't always look at the date (this happened to my girlfriend). Writing a stack of post dated cheques to the landlord can be hazardous to one's cashflow. I personally have never provided a bunch of post dated cheques except during the very first 12 months ... after that, I write them each month and deliver them to the landlord before rent is due.

Also I think Berubeland may be incorrect about the lease being enforceable after 1 year. As I understand it (in Ontario) once the 1 year lease is up, you automatically switch to month-to-monoth rent. The landlord cannot force you to sign a new lease. The tenant has the choice to either sign a new lease, move out, or (by default) they switch to month-to-month tenancy.

So even if the original lease requires 12 post dated cheques, that requirement stops after the 12 months are up. This is what happened at my last apartment. When I started on the lease I gave the 12 cheques, but after the first year I did not sign a new lease and therefore I became a month to month tenant. So I write a cheque every month.

If a tenant is just starting a 12 month lease, they are obligated to 12 payments so it makes sense to ask for 12 post dated cheques. But after those first 12 months, the tenant doesn't know if they will still be there in X months ... there's no logical reason for them to provide post dated cheques.


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## james4beach

Chris L said:


> My tenant used to provide rent cheques for around 5-6 years but recently since the rent was increased, decided, I guess, to make it less convenient for me (last two months).


So they started a lease 6 years ago (presumably for 1 year). Did they sign a new lease, or are they a month-to-month renter now?

If they are renting month to month, you can't expect post dated cheques, as they could move out any time (with X days notice). Why would someone provide you a post dated cheque for 6 months in the future when they have no obligation to be there in 6 months? If they are a month to month tenant, their only obligation is to pay the next month.

I think it's a good move requiring them to deliver payment to you. You are perfectly justified doing this and expecting that it is paid on time, every time.


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## Sampson

james4beach said:


> Tenants do not have to provide post dated cheques.


Additionally, landlords do not have to offer their rental units to tenants who do not provide post date cheques.


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## Plugging Along

I require post dated cheques for the most part. We do have one set of tenants that paycash, so they bring it over on the first. If people don't want to give me a cheque, thy will need to get it to me. 

I have it in my lease that 2 months prior to the end of the lease they must give me notice or sign another lease. I seldomly have had to go month to month. I also go over to the place to sign e lease and pick up the cheques. This gives me an opportunity to inspect the place.


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## OhGreatGuru

From the sound of things, you cannot insist on post-dated cheques unless it is specified in the lease agreement.

But suggest you make it clear, in writing, that it is their obligation to ensure that rent payment is delivered to your offices on the due date. And that if it does not arrive on time you will have to consider that they are in default. Then outline ways this can be done that would be acceptable to you.

eg.; - a series of post-dated cheques;
- monthly mailing, a sufficient number of business days ahead of the due date to ensure that it arrives on or before the due date;
- e-mail money transfer on the due date if they have access to on-line banking. (But caution they would have to check with their bank to determine if the rent would exceed their daily transfer limit.)


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## Mall Guy

Are you actually having a collection problem ?


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## Jocose

very interesting thread
I'm just preparing to be a landlord, and I've got 1 question regarding this topic.

If I don't want to deal with all cheque's problems (NSF, receiving cheques on time, waiting for money to clear on my personal account). So in my lease agreement I will put: "The rent shall be paid by money order, or bank draft, or cash (receipt will be provided), or email transfer. . Sorry no cheques."

Is it legal? Or tenants still have some kind of right about giving me cheques?


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## Chris L

Jocose said:


> very interesting thread
> I'm just preparing to be a landlord, and I've got 1 question regarding this topic.
> 
> If I don't want to deal with all cheque's problems (NSF, receiving cheques on time, waiting for money to clear on my personal account). So in my lease agreement I will put: "The rent shall be paid by money order, or bank draft, or cash (receipt will be provided), or email transfer. . Sorry no cheques."
> 
> Is it legal? Or tenants still have some kind of right about giving me cheques?


In your lease specify the cost for an NSF. Usually around $35 is a fair price cost for the inconvenience. I would never take a tenant that DID NOT have a bank account. To me a person that pays in cash is a big red flag. It's someone with bad credit who can't even qualify or is organized enough to have an account. You can always ask for cash or MO, but then, you're always trying to track the guy down on the first of the month. Just keep the last months rent in your account as a buffer in case there is an issue with a cheque. For a first offense, I usually waive the NSF charge. Serves as a warning.


update:

I left a note on his door about getting post dated cheques or getting them to me on time. He asked me if I was owed this month's rent. He was a bit confused. I just told him no and he said sorry that he had run out of cheques and was waiting on another book. Doesn't make total sense though as this is the second cheque in a row. Although I guess he might have been saving cheques until his new book came in. Bad timing as I assumed it was due to the rent.


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## the-royal-mail

Bad idea, jocose. Bank drafts and money orders are very expensive and require the tenant (your customer) to have to pay money and go and stand in line at the bank every month to get such a device. Cash is very risky for the high amounts being discussed here. What a waste of time and money. I am a tenant and if I came across you as LL with those conditions in your lease I would head straight for the door. You're in the wrong business if you have such paranoia about cheques. This is a very common way to pay rent. Do you want tenants or not?


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## andrewf

I would never rent from a landlord that didn't accept cheques. Asking for cash seems highly dodgy, and is inconvenient.


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## Four Pillars

andrewf said:


> I would never rent from a landlord that didn't accept cheques. Asking for cash seems highly dodgy, and is inconvenient.


I did that once and it was a huge hassle.

Lazy landlords....


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## peterk

andrewf said:


> I would never rent from a landlord that didn't accept cheques. Asking for cash seems highly dodgy, and is inconvenient.


You at least must ask for the cash discount if that's how he wants to be paid. :biggrin:


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## Berubeland

The lease terms remain the same even if the lease goes to month to month. In Ontario all leases automatically go month to month. You cannot evict your tenant for getting to the end of the lease. 

It is illegal to require post dated checks as a condition of tenancy. So you cannot tell a potential tenant that if they do not want to give you post dated checks they will not be accepted. You can politely ask for post dated checks though, but if the tenant says no at any point, back the heck off, and make it their responsibility to get the rent to you. You should accept what ever is legal tender except in many cases cash. If you have employees then you don't want them accepting cash for their own protection. Basically you don't need to be storing thousands of cash $$$ in the management office where a break in is relatively easy. 

However, as a business plan, you need to have a process where if someone who is in arrears has cash, someone will accept it immediately. When I was managing a townhouse complex in Oshawa where I had a lot of people who were collecting Ontario Works I went on the first of the month myself to collect mitt fulls of cash. I also went on the 20th and collect more cash. Lots of people did not even have bank accounts. What are you going to do? Again I would never put an employee in that position and took security measures myself.


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## kcowan

Our place just finished a contest. Deliver 12 pd cheques to the rental office and get a chance to win a $100 gift cert at the local mall. Ha I said. Let me get a guaranteed rental rate for the 12 month period and I will be there in a flash.


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## Mall Guy

Berubeland said:


> However, as a business plan, you need to have a process where if someone who is in arrears has cash, someone will accept it immediately. When I was managing a townhouse complex in Oshawa where I had a lot of people who were collecting Ontario Works I went on the first of the month myself to collect mitt fulls of cash. I also went on the 20th and collect more cash. Lots of people did not even have bank accounts. What are you going to do? Again I would never put an employee in that position and took security measures myself.


Agree 100% . . . but now I'm just thinking of you packing heat :biggrin:


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## NorthKC

Many landlords don't like cash due to the extra hassles but many have had to protect themselves by having tenant signing paper and receiving receipt at time of cash handover for the rent. 

My landlord originally requested post-dated cheques for the first year (nothing in lease) and I opted to do that to save both of us hassles but nothing afterwards. I opted to give him another 12 post-dated cheques after the one-year lease as I wanted to keep the hassle to a minimum and had no plans for moving out for at least a year. Landlord had no problems as it gave him reassurance that he had me for another guaranteed year. I just did the same thing again this year. 

Basically, it really depends on how good the relationship is with the landlord and tenant. I'd personally put in a clause in the lease stating post-dated cheques for the first year. If you want it again, sign a new lease!


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## andrewf

It's not guaranteed for another year--having a stack of rent cheques doesn't stop your tenant from giving 60 days notice when he is renting month-to-month.


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## NorthKC

True but the odds of a tenant leaving early is lower with the advance of post-dated cheques. That's what I was driving at.


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## Sampson

NorthKC said:


> Basically, it really depends on how good the relationship is with the landlord and tenant.


^ This.

Everyone is an adult and this is a business transaction. Choose your business partner/client well and all will be good.


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## Rusty O'Toole

Who uses checks anyway? These days you can do automatic withdrawal, telephone banking, online banking, or go to the nearest branch of the landlord's bank and make a deposit to his or her account.

I suppose if you are over 50 and not too tech savvy post dated checks are what you are comfortable with, but there are certainly easier ways to do things.

As for the landlord banging on the door and collecting the rent in cash, the 19th century ended a long time ago.


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## NorthKC

Rusty, you may or may not know that PAD for rent is illegal under the Ontario Tenant's Act. Many people do it anyway for ease of use. I have only done it once with a very reputable rental company. Even then they still took out an extra month by mistake when I moved out which I didn't get back until 2 months later. They have given me $100 in gift cards at a gas station as an apology.


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## marina628

I have 5 rentals and all my tenants give us 12 post dated checks when they sign the lease every year.We always tell them to let us know if they need a few days to cover the cheque rather than it bouncing.**** happens and a couple times we were asked to hold the cheques but I have only had 1 bounced Cheque in the last 7 years.I had a tenant go bankrupt and they still paid the rent through that process .


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## Berubeland

Hahahaha I wasn't packing heat, I just brought my husband along. 

As for annual leases, I don't really see the benefit for the owner. You can't change the terms in the middle of the tenancy, and if the tenant moves out you are required to mitigate damages and start renting right away. If the apartment doesn't get rerented, they owe you on paper... the rent until it's rerented, expenses equal to the exact amount it took to rent the apartment. Then... you have to find them, serve them with small court papers, go to Small Claims, then collect on the Judgement. The biggest problem is finding them after they move. 

For the owner, you can't sell the property without the new landlord assuming the lease, you can't file for continual late payment until the end of the lease and you have no real security, so what is the point?


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## the-royal-mail

I am moving out a month and a half before my lease ends (I gave proper notice and will be leaving the place clean as per their move-out cleaning list they gave me) and I still have to pay the final month's rent. It really sucks but what can I do? For over $900 I think it would be worth their effort to send this to collections. So I'll just pay it. It's cheaper than RE and legal fees would be. What else can I do?

As for the disparaging comments towards cheques, this has nothing to do with 21st century or not. I'm not going to the bank in person every month and then try to track down LL to give them cash, drafts or money orders. My LL doesn't take online bill payments but they've been harrassing us to sign up for some sort of pre-authorized debit. Again, I don't believe in that because if they make a mistake it is up to me to chase after them to get it fixed. Been there, done that. I get 10 debits per month included with my bank plan which includes cheques. For rent payment, as well as paying friends and family for money owed, cheques are simply the best way.


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## nathan79

I've seen E-Mail transfer mentioned a couple of times in this thread. I've never heard of this before, can anyone explain how that works? I looked on my bank's web site but I couldn't find any mention of it.


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## andrewf

the-royal-mail said:


> I am moving out a month and a half before my lease ends (I gave proper notice and will be leaving the place clean as per their move-out cleaning list they gave me) and I still have to pay the final month's rent. It really sucks but what can I do? For over $900 I think it would be worth their effort to send this to collections. So I'll just pay it. It's cheaper than RE and legal fees would be. What else can I do?


You can ask them whether they would give you a credit for the rent if they can lease the place before your end date. Otherwise, don't give back the key until the last day of your tenancy.


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## marina628

andrewf said:


> You can ask them whether they would give you a credit for the rent if they can lease the place before your end date. Otherwise, don't give back the key until the last day of your tenancy.


+1 this will probably lead you into a good discussion as they may have rented it already and plan to double dip, if you say you will keep it til end of lease now and they have a tenant moving in asap you may get lucky and they may give you something .


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## Spudd

nathan79 said:


> I've seen E-Mail transfer mentioned a couple of times in this thread. I've never heard of this before, can anyone explain how that works? I looked on my bank's web site but I couldn't find any mention of it.


http://www.interac.ca/en/interac-etransfer/etransfer-detail


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## nathan79

Thanks.

My credit union doesn't seem to support Interac E-transfers, but I can get them through my account at Scotiabank. I'm definitely going to bring this up with my tenant.


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## the-royal-mail

There are fees associated with such transfers. 

I still don't see the big deal with cheques. I pay enough fees and charges as it is. Not going to pay more in fees just so someone can feel like they're in the "21st century". That's just rhetoric.


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## nathan79

As I understand, based on my limited knowledge, it's free to receive an Interac e-Transfer. There is a small charge for the sender. $1 according to Scotiabank, though it may be more at other institutions.

Cheques aren't perfect. They usually cost about $20 for a book (unless you have a special account where they are free), they have to be mailed or picked up in person, they take several days to clear, and there's always a chance they will bounce.

Interac e-Transfer seems as good as cash, unless I'm overlooking some other drawback.


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## Spudd

If I were a landlord, I'd be happy to reduce my tenant's rent by $1.50 per month in exchange for getting interac e-transfers instead of cheques.


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## chantl01

As a previous renter, I was happy to eat the $1.50 cost a month to pay by interac e-transfer rather than have to worry about mailing or dropping off cheques and not knowing when they might be deposited and clear my account.


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