# Banking/investing on behalf of elderly in-laws



## axle (Jan 27, 2020)

I am looking for any advice on setting things up to bank/invest on behalf of my mother in law. What is the best way to do that? I would like anything they normally mail to her to be mailed to me. Same with phone calls. I want a chequings account, TFSA, RIF. In TFSA/RIF, I would like to invest in something conservative like XINC or VCIP (she doesn't need growth). Perhaps there are other/better suggestions on relatively conservative investments? Which banks would make this easy for me? She already does banking with RBC and Prospera. Unfortunately, I only get out to see my mother in law once a year, so I'm looking to set something up that doesn't require in person meetings, and a ton of paper work. Hopefully everything can be done on line. 

Any advise/suggestions? Any clues on what I'm asking the banks for? Trading authority? I don't think I want joint accounts.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

You need to clarify the provinces involved, that of your inlaws and yourself. 

You will need Enduring Power of Attorney to start with (she needs to initiate and sign it, and you will also need to sign it). Otherwise, there will be no mailings to you nor online access nor phone access, etc.

It would be also best to stay with the FI she has been with for some time, e.g. RBC. RBC unfortunately can be really pedantic with process and paperwork so may make it difficult. You will need to deal separately with Royal Bank (banking) and RBC Direct Investing (for investment accounts). You probably won't be able to do much online and it will be a real PITA getting it set up (if not virtually impossible).


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I agree with AR that you will need POA for property. (but if she doesn't already have POA set up, have her do the POA for personal health at the same time, as it will eventually be needed)

For my mom, who uses TD, the bank wasn't too happy to accept the third-party POA form from my mom's lawyer, and instead asked my mom to come to the branch to sign the bank's own POA papers. Luckily she was still capable of doing this at the time so it worked, but it was a hassle. 

Why do you need to set up new accounts? Can't you just manage the accounts she already has?


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Good luck. My wife and her sister get the 3rd degree at the bank even trying to pay their Moms bills from her account. They don't have a POA unfortunately and now can't get one due to her medical condition. Lot's of regulations it seems, to protect account holder.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I do this for my parents. Your choices are>

1. Joint accounts with one of two signatures For banking. You have the same authority/rights as if it was your own account. The exception are registered accounts such as tsfa, rrsp, rif which cannot be joint.

2. Power of attorney which will need to be drafted up and sent to the banks. They will remind you that you are acting on their best interest and it’s not your money, so a higher duty of care. That will work for all the accounts you mentioned. Some banks will not allow a POA to do things on line so you will have to goto a branch but any branch is fine

3. Get your in laws sign in information and sign in as them. However, this is a security breach so if you do and something happens the bank will say they are no pt liable. Also, if anything changes with the account info, you will need to get your in laws to fix it. 

#2 is the way to go. It covers you if something happens to your in laws and they don’t have the mental capacity to make decisions. If they lose mental capacity, you can not longer get a POA.

Also, it is easier to work with existing accounts with a POA than started new accounts due to the amount of paper work for transfers. If you do it wrong on a registered account, there may be tax and other implications. On bank accounts if you close one and there is auto payments or deposits, it’s a pain.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree #2 is the only appropriate way to go. It will require the OP and his/her MIL to physically have at least one in-person meeting with MIL's current banker/branch to push the third party POA (gotten ahead of time) on to them to get POA access to bank accounts. If the OP wants to do investing at say, RBC DI, do the applications for RBC DI at the same time and get POA access assigned. It is not enough to just default to Trading Authority because TA will not allow the withdrawal or transfer of funds out of each account, for example RIF funds to TFSA, or TFSA withdrawals, etc. Trading Authority is only the right to buy/sell within an account.

It is going to take some effort and in-person meetings.... and some real grief getting all this to work. I agree with post #5 to stick with current accounts, e.g. RBC, to make this work.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

My brother has a non registered account (in their name solely) at TDDI. I am POA and have trading rights. The street address and email address on the account are mine, not my brothers, so anything for the account comes to me. The account is linked to my TDDI profile so when I log in to my own accounts I also have access to my sibling's account. I also get access via the login to statements and trade confirmations, however not tax slips. Their is some regulation requiring the tax slips to be mailed to the account holder (not POA) but as the address of record is mine I receive them in the s/mail.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

POA automatically has Trading Rights and all other rights to operate the account. It is the inverse that is not true. Someone with strictly buy/sell trading rights (called Discretionary authority when exercised by a full service broker) cannot withdraw funds from accounts and is not the recipient of communications.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I had POA for my mother (in BC). No problem in managing all of her financial affairs. Including real estate sale.


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## axle (Jan 27, 2020)

Thanks for all of the advise. I am in AB and my in-laws are in BC. There are registered accounts, so it sounds like Power of Attorney is the only way to go. Thank you for that bit of advise as it may have taken me a bit to figure that out. 

Could you advise what the logistics/timing is? For instance, if I fly out to BC, would it be possible to see a lawyer in the morning, get a Power of Attorney set up, walk out with the paper work, go to the banks in the afternoon, and get that set up? i.e. is this a one day visit? Or is this going to take multiple trips to BC to get set up. How much can we do via mail?

Thank you


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

axle said:


> Thanks for all of the advise. I am in AB and my in-laws are in BC. There are registered accounts, so it sounds like Power of Attorney is the only way to go. Thank you for that bit of advise as it may have taken me a bit to figure that out.
> 
> Could you advise what the logistics/timing is? For instance, if I fly out to BC, would it be possible to see a lawyer in the morning, get a Power of Attorney set up, walk out with the paper work, go to the banks in the afternoon, and get that set up? i.e. is this a one day visit? Or is this going to take multiple trips to BC to get set up. How much can we do via mail?
> 
> Thank you


No idea. Mine was done at a notary office. I did not make the appt.

I only had one financial institution to deal with. Took the POA to them, they made a copy, and it was done. When I sold the real estate I faxed a copy to the realtor.

Some time ago. You would be well advised to pick up the phone and call a lawyer or notary office in BC. I have no doubt that they could give your the proper information. You might also want to do the same for the FI.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

axle said:


> Thanks for all of the advise. I am in AB and my in-laws are in BC. There are registered accounts, so it sounds like Power of Attorney is the only way to go. Thank you for that bit of advise as it may have taken me a bit to figure that out.
> 
> Could you advise what the logistics/timing is? For instance, if I fly out to BC, would it be possible to see a lawyer in the morning, get a Power of Attorney set up, walk out with the paper work, go to the banks in the afternoon, and get that set up? i.e. is this a one day visit? Or is this going to take multiple trips to BC to get set up. How much can we do via mail?
> 
> Thank you


I would suggest you consider at least a few days in BC to attend to these matters. I am in BC and my POA is in AB. The POA document can be fleshed out before hand ready for signature as to when you arrive and have an appointment set up with the BC based notary or lawyer that your MIL and yourself can attend too (which is how I did it). Then meet with the bank (RBC) later the same day for your MIL and self with a copy of the signed POA, but recognize there can be FUBAR situations and the bank manager/supervisor et al may not have all the right documentation ready and/or may be ill that day or otherwise not available. Plan on at least 2 working days, perhaps 3 to be safe. There will be online access forms likely to be signed by yourself to access her accounts under your own client ID.

This is particularly true if you are trying to set up new investment accounts with RBC DI at the same time. Bank personnel can help filling out the applications and getting signatures on documents, but they all have to go to TO for final approval. Not only would you and MIL be filling out application forms for RBC DI registered accounts, but MIL would also be signing transfer forms to get existing registered accounts transferred over to RBC DI once the accounts are operational, and MIL signing beneficiary (successor holder, successor annuitant, beneficiary) forms for the newly established registered accounts. Plenty of opportunity for things to go FUBAR.

Not much can be done by mail other than preparation of the POA itself. It has to be signed in the presence of both MIL and yourself, or if not, you will need a notary in AB to witness your own signature at extra cost. While a lot of documentation can be e-signed these days, there are certain things that cannot.


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## axle (Jan 27, 2020)

I'm not looking forward to this.....it sounds like it will be the usual red tape fun. 

Is it complicated or ill advised to put a third person on a power of attorney? I have a brother-in-law who has also been helping with the financial stuff. It would be nice if both of us could act on my mother in laws behalf.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

No. It would take both of you to do anything. A POA is best served by only one 'official' person on record. You can always solicit input/assistance informally from others, e.g. investment choices, but don't complicate it with the need for dual signatures. It could be set up that BIL could be an alternate* if you could not act on MIL's behalf (incapacitated for example, or hit by a truck), or if you formally resign from being POA, but do not make another person a co-POA. You could also set it up whereby BIL has Trading Authority on investment accounts at a later date as well. 

You would need to talk to the lawyer doing the POA about the wisdom of that sort of thing.

* My own POA is set up such that there is a named alternate to my POA if my designated POA refuses to act as POA when the time comes and/or formally resigns. There would be paperwork required at the time for the alternate to take over.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

axle said:


> Thanks for all of the advise. I am in AB and my in-laws are in BC. There are registered accounts, so it sounds like Power of Attorney is the only way to go. Thank you for that bit of advise as it may have taken me a bit to figure that out.
> 
> Could you advise what the logistics/timing is? For instance, if I fly out to BC, would it be possible to see a lawyer in the morning, get a Power of Attorney set up, walk out with the paper work, go to the banks in the afternoon, and get that set up? i.e. is this a one day visit? Or is this going to take multiple trips to BC to get set up. How much can we do via mail?
> 
> Thank you


You don't need to be there for your in laws to set up a POA. I would have them go to where ever they had their will set up. If they haven't done this, they can get their will, POA, PD (personal directive or the equivalent in BC) all at the same time. If they need you to go with them, then you can call in advance and make an appointment. Usually they have some questions for your in laws, and need a few days to get it written, then your in laws much go in person to sign. My dad updated his, it was with our family lawyer, so they had the old documents, they asked my dad everything over the phone, and then about 4 days later he went in and signed.

Once everything is signed, then ask them for an extra original of the documents (most banks will want to see the original). Again, I would just make an appointment with the bank and bring your in laws to make it easier. Some banks require a few days to put it through their lawyers for review. RBC allowed us to do it immediately because they knew my dad, and we were both there. I have also done it at a different branch than my mom's because she was in a home with a stroke. It took longer those times. I had to deal with my parents accounts at almost every major bank in AB and it was different every time. 

You can call ahead of this, and get the paperwork done in advance.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The person who becomes the POA has to also sign the POA document provided by the lawyer/notary. It does not have to be at the same time as the person granting the POA signs, but it must be signed. That is a fact. Enduring Power of Attorney - Clicklaw Wikibooks

The Enduring POA should be operational immediately (a General POA is not advised because it does not carry over to when one becomes incompetent). https://wiki.clicklaw.bc.ca/prerender/pdfs/Power_of_Attorney.pdf

Your signing of the POA probably can be done remotely, but would require documentation with a notary or lawyer in AB to prepare the Affadavits for legitimizing/witnessing the signature at additional cost. I think it is better to simply make that trip to BC and get it all done at one time (the POA at the lawyer) and then getting all the bank stuff sorted out.

The rationale for going to an institution like RBC is that if your personal presence is required to perform certain actions with MIL's accounts, you can do it from a local RBC branch in AB.

Added later: All of this appears daunting but much of it is simply process. Your MIL needs to be clear in her mind what she wants her POA to do (likely in discussion with her lawyer or notary), e.g. General or Enduring, and whether an alternate POA is desired in event you cannot/will not act as POA. The lawyer will draw this up for her to sign. She can sign before you come out for a visit, or at the same time as you also sign the POA.

The bigger challenge will be with the bank in terms of them accepting the POA and preparing the right documentation for MIL to sign, if any, but mostly for you to sign as the POA on her accounts. Transfers of registered and bank accounts from other FIs should be signed by MIL, not you as POA because FIs won't know who you are. Any opening of new accounts with RBC should be signed by MIL to avoid Toronto complications with you as POA. Your access to all accounts should be able to handled by the local branch, including obtaining your specific client ID.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

axle said:


> I'm not looking forward to this.....it sounds like it will be the usual red tape fun.
> 
> Is it complicated or ill advised to put a third person on a power of attorney? I have a brother-in-law who has also been helping with the financial stuff. It would be nice if both of us could act on my mother in laws behalf.


My mom's original POA, before she got sick, had me, my brother, and her sister as joint POA's. When it got to the point where she actually needed things to be done with it, this was untenable. We all live thousands of km away from each other. She re-did it at the lawyer's to make it now say "jointly and severally" which means either together or individually, each person can act as POA. However, it was the fact that multiple people were listed on the lawyer POA that made the bank refuse to accept it without a signature from each of the 3 people, even though it said jointly and severally. So I had to drag her into the bank branch to fill out the bank's paperwork. Luckily at that point she was still capable of doing so, though it was difficult for her. 

Aside from the bank, I was able to use the POA as written with Rogers to cancel her telecom when she moved. That worked fine. So it's not necessarily an issue. 

But it was definitely an issue with the bank for us, so YMMV.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I had no issue whatsoever with the POA or acting on behalf of my mother with the POA.

One exception was ICBC. The ICBC agent insisted that a POA remained in effect after death. Nothing surprises me from ICBC.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

ian said:


> I had no issue whatsoever with the POA or acting on behalf of my mother with the POA


The discussion here is about the effort and processes needed to set up the POA and to get it going. I agree once it is in place for the grantor's financial accounts and functioning, it functions.


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