# One year anniversary of US Capitol attack



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This might have been the most serious attack, ever, on the USA by right wing extremists. It was carried out by Trump supporters (MAGA movement) who wanted to stop the election results from being certified... a direct assault on American democracy.

Elected politicians fled the Capitol and were forced into hiding. The DoJ says that 75 individuals were charged with using a dangerous or deadly weapon, and 140 police officers were assaulted. More than 700 people have been arrested so far.

Right wing extremists are not going away. Backed by the Republican Party (which has chosen to align with Trump), they are creating a cult-like extremist movement in the US.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The hearings on the riot may be broadcast live on national television.

The government has the authority to require all television networks and stations to carry it live, including Fox News.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

The above two posts shows how easily some people can be convinced of anything.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ And the above poster believes the events of January 6, 2021 at Capitol Hills was a gigantic party celebrating the loss of the election by an ex-POTUS? Don't miss your chance to visit your idol there in Florida.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

A bunch of people were welcomed in by security (there is video evidence), they walked around and took selfies. Trespassing at worst for the vast majority. Exculpatory evidence has been withheld.

And that's the most serious attack ever? As I said...some people will believe anything.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> A bunch of people were welcomed in by security (there is video evidence), they walked around and took selfies. Trespassing at worst for the vast majority. Exculpatory evidence has been withheld.


 ... right and some 700 "participators" were waiting to be rescued by Mr. Dump whilst serving their jail-time.



> And that's the most serious attack ever? As I said...some people will believe anything.


 ... and then there're some people who loves to accuse everybody everything that they themselves actually are. 

I guess police officers don't count for beans in your eyes.

These Are the People Who Died in Connection With the Capitol Riot


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

I don't subscribe to NYT. Who died other than unarmed Ashli Babbit who was murdered by a cop?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

The actual question is what in the hell was security doing?
Why did they refuse to mobilize national guard. The house of commons leader had a right to do that and refused to.
Unfortunately the house leaders also refused to share any communications of that day and prior, related to setting up the security.

There are bunch of idiots pretty much anywhere you go so security is necessary. Why did it stand down on Jan 6? - we will never know. Same was as we will never know why police stood down during riots over the summer.

This is all just a media circus and ultimately we will never find out what were the root causes and no improvements will be made. Just an opportunity to throw more mud at each other.

And gullible people get into it -just as the politicians want them to


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## MK7GTI (Mar 4, 2019)

Just another example of people reading only headlines, listening or reading media outlets with clear agendas. Perhaps do your own deeper research into something as ‘big’ of an event as this was.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MK7GTI said:


> Just another example of people reading only headlines, listening or reading media outlets with clear agendas. Perhaps do your own deeper research into something as ‘big’ of an event as this was.


Can you recommend any sources?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is no loyalty among criminals. They are ratting each other out to get a deal.

Those who talk first get probation. Those who don't get cell mates.

Hey.........are you guys fellow Libertarians ?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

This thread has gone downhill quickly...now the conspiracy theorists are reduced to posting pics of MS13 gang members.

I guess the list of 7 confirmed deaths won't be coming either?


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

January 6th is to the Republican Party what June 4th is to the Communist Party of China. 
The events on that date never occurred.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Tostig said:


> January 6th is to the Republican Party what June 4th is to the Communist Party of China.
> The events on that date never occurred.


No one has proven that anything happened. Video shows some trespassing and some scuffling. All we know for sure is that a cop murdered an unarmed woman and was called a hero.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Makes me thankful that my grandparents/father decided to emigrate to Canada rather than continue on to the US with the rest of the clan.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It would be an interesting and historic live event on television.

I remember watching the Watergate hearings and John Dean's testimony. Everybody was watching it every day.

Shortly after that, staunch Republican Barry Goldwater went to Nixon and told him......you only have 3 or 4 votes of support in the Senate and none of them is mine. One way or the other you are leaving.

Nixon resigned on national television, took his dog Checkers, climbed the stairs of Air Force One, turned and waved and was gone from politics forever.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The other day the female realtor who had said there was no way she would receive prison time because she was a woman and blonde, said she was reporting to prison in a few days. She wasn't laughing any more.

The guy with the moose horns cried when told he was going to prison. Others were shocked and begged not to go......but the judges aren't having any of it.

The DOJ is now going after the "higher ups" who could do substantial prison time for serious insurrection felony charges and assaults on police officers.

I don't think traitors should be given any leniency at all. They are lucky they aren't being executed.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

That wasn't any insurrection...this is an insurrection!








Police Officer Beheaded in Kazakhstan As Violence Escalates


Russian paratroopers have been dispatched to quell the violence sparked by protests against a rise in gas prices.




www.newsweek.com





Hopefully the West is watching.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Michael Byrd is still walking free and will never face trial for murder.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

HappilyRetired said:


> A bunch of people were welcomed in by security (there is video evidence), they walked around and took selfies.


You forgot the part where they beat up cops, tried to kill cops, and tried to kill politicians.

The attackers had set up gallows outside, ready to execute their political enemies. They tried to find Pelosi and Pence, to capture and kill them.

But I do understand that terrorist sympathizers will choose to ignore the ugliness. That's what extremists do... and they also apologize and cover for other extremists.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The police officer that shot that woman is a hero. She was trying to lead the violent mob through the last door that protected the Vice President of the US.

The police should have opened fire on the mob rioters when they breached the capital. It would have ended the attack and the crowd would have scattered.

Better the members of the mob get killed than the police officers die or were severely injured while protecting democracy from a violent mob.

Listening to a Senator the other day, he said security now guarantees it will never happen again. I took that to mean....if there is a next time they will shoot.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

HappilyRetired said:


> All we know for sure is that a cop murdered an unarmed woman and was called a hero.


You're pushing a terrorist agenda. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting a violent insurrection against the United States of America.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

sags said:


> The police officer that shot that woman is a hero. She was trying to lead the violent mob through the last door that protected the Vice President of the US.


Stop lying. He shot an unarmed woman from 20+ feet away with no warning. There is video evidence. No one was in danger.

Michael Byrd murdered a woman. He should be on trial for murder.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> You're pushing a terrorist agenda. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting a violent insurrection against the United States of America.


I was against the BLM riots that led to several murders.

I don't really care about trespassing at the capital.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The video clearly shows the police officer was just inside the door where she was climbing through the window.

She was warned numerous times but kept coming, so he shot her. She caused her own death by misadventure.

It also stopped the mob from smashing through the door.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

sags said:


> The video clearly shows the police officer was just inside the door where she was climbing through the window.
> 
> She was warned numerous times but kept coming, so he shot her. She caused her own death by misadventure.
> 
> It also stopped the mob from smashing through the door.


An unarmed woman was shot by a cop twice her size from 20 feet away and you call that "death by misadventure"?

You are now on ignore.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Climate Change is real.
Covid-19 is real.
Evolution is a fact.
The Earth is round and orbits the Sun.
The moon landings are real.
Trump lost the 2020 election.

The Right Wing think they live on another planet. The rest of us wish they were.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Tostig said:


> The Right Wing think they live on another planet. The rest of us wish they were.


But let's be fair here. It's not all of the right wing. There are many American conservatives who don't support the outlandish claims of Trump and his MAGA cult, and don't support attacks to overthrow the government.

And many, perhaps most, Canadian conservatives aren't on side with the MAGA cult either.

Within the American right wing, this wacky group has gained power and has taken over (it seems). They've pushed out those who aren't loyal to Trump and they are also pushing out the non-extremists.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

james4beach said:


> But let's be fair here. It's not all of the right wing. ...


Take Covid-19 as an example. On TVO's the Agenda, Steve Paiken showed a poll across all the political parties what proportion thinks that Covid was a hoax. All the parties had about 10% except for the Conservatives which showed over 40%.

And that was reflected during the election too.

So, in terms of all the subjects I've listed, the Right disproportionately has the highest levels of denial of science and the facts.



james4beach said:


> But let's be fair here.


Won't hear that from the Right.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

I don't know anyone who thinks Covid is a hoax, including every Conservative that I know. I do know several people who think that there is a lot of misinformation out there, though. Perhaps that's all that is needed to suggest that they think it's a hoax. Just like people who don't think warming is a real problem get called climate deniers.

And while we're talking about extremists we can't ignore that the left openly supported BLM and Antifa violent riots that led to dozens of deaths and billions in property damage. CNN even called them "mostly peaceful protests" while entire neighborhoods burned to the ground.

As far as I know, the only person killed at the Jan 6 protest was an unarmed woman.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

This was back in August. So for 5 full months the Democrats and the rest of the media have been lying? And why did Biden lie to the people today and keep pushing the lie?

"The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supporters of then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations."

Exclusive: FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated - sources | Reuters


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Turn off CNN!


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## emperor (Jul 24, 2011)

Don't know much about the story, but I do know if 570 people tried to violently take over the government it would be a massacer. On both sides.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

emperor said:


> Don't know much about the story, but I do know if 570 people tried to violently take over the government it would be a massacer. On both sides.


Hunting down lawmakers while they are trying to finalize an election is a direct attack on the democratic process.

Setting up gallows outside to hang the Vice President, and bursting into the government building to find and capture the VP is a direct attack on the government.

Trump's MAGA people tried to overthrow the United States of America.


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## emperor (Jul 24, 2011)

That's pretty crazy. Can't believe they wouldn't take guns if that was their goal, it doesn't take many well armed people to storm a building. You do need to be careful about disinformation though lots of manipulators and people with an agenda out there. Before worrying too much about right wing extremists give it time. This is text book treason which carries a min of 5 years in prison and 10,000 fine and a max penalty of death. They will lay charges you can see the true story from there. If 100 people are found guilty of treason there could be a big issue especially if we hit a depression it could get out of hand. If only a couple people are found guilty of treason then there is some manipulation in there. If no one is found guilty of treason then there was a lot of manipulation for an agenda and I would highly suggest ignoring the people that tried to push it.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Tostig said:


> Take Covid-19 as an example. On TVO's the Agenda, Steve Paiken showed a poll across all the political parties what proportion thinks that Covid was a hoax. All the parties had about 10% except for the Conservatives which showed over 40%.
> 
> And that was reflected during the election too.
> 
> ...


And over 40% of Democrats believe you have 50% chance of getting hospitalized when infected. High levels of denial of science and facts.
Extremes are wrong on both sides, and neither side cares about facts


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There will be a lot of evidence revealed during the hearings that nobody can deny. 

That is what the conspirators are afraid of and why they are working so hard to discredit the investigation.

The conspirators know they could end up with serious criminal charges.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Hunting down lawmakers while they are trying to finalize an election is a direct attack on the democratic process.
> 
> Setting up gallows outside to hang the Vice President, and bursting into the government building to find and capture the VP is a direct attack on the government.
> 
> Trump's MAGA people tried to overthrow the United States of America.


Stop lying. People trespassed and walked around taking selfies. No one tried to overthrow the govt according to the FBI.

Had what you claimed really happened the footage would have been leaked in the very first week. Nothing has been leaked which proves that nothing bad really happened. The only alternative is to accept the fact that there were violent Trump supporters and the Democrats are actively hiding that instead of proving it. Do you really believe that?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Some people have been in jail for a year so far and all they did was trespass. This isn't about justice, it's political persecution.

Trump should have pardoned every single one of them on his last day in office but he wanted to please the Democrats. What a fool.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

HappilyRetired said:


> You are now on ignore.


Please add me too.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Tostig said:


> Please add me too.


Why? So there's one less person to correct you when you're wrong?

What do you think really happened on Jan 6, 2021?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> Why? So there's one less person to correct you when you're wrong?
> 
> What do you think really happened on Jan 6, 2021?


 ... same here. I want to be on your conspiracy - Ignore list too.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> And over 40% of Democrats believe you have 50% chance of getting hospitalized when infected. High levels of denial of science and facts.
> ...


You omitted the reference to people being unvaccinated. But at least they recognize how real Covid-19 is.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... same here. I want to be on your conspiracy - Ignore list too.


You posted an NYT story that falsely claimed that 7 people were killed on Jan 6. You should make an apology to the forum instead of demanding that I stop correcting your lies.

Please name the 7 people supposedly killed on Jan 6 and how they died.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Tostig said:


> You omitted the reference to people being unvaccinated. But at least they recognize how real Covid-19 is.


So denying science and facts is ok because you think their lies are better than the other lies? 
Why not have discussion based on actual facts and statistics? Actual data?


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> So denying science and facts is ok because you think their lies are better than the other lies?
> Why not have discussion based on actual facts and statistics? Actual data?


Climate Change is real.
Covid-19 is real.
Evolution is a fact.
The Earth is round and orbits the Sun.
The moon landings are real.
The Tiananmen Square massacre was real.
Trump lost the 2020 election.

The science and the facts are real.

Alternate-facts aren't unless you're in another universe.

Here's the full paragraph.
"For unvaccinated hospitalization risk, 2% of Democrats responded correctly, compared with 16% of Republicans. In fact, 41% of Democrats replied that at least 50% of unvaccinated people have been hospitalized due to COVID-19."


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Tostig said:


> Climate Change is real.
> Covid-19 is real.
> Evolution is a fact.
> The Earth is round and orbits the Sun.
> ...


Yes. All of those are real.

COVID case doesn't have 50% hospitalization rate.

That is as real as any of the things you have mentioned. 
Denying science and facts is wrong - from both sides


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> You posted an NYT story that falsely claimed that 7 people were killed on Jan 6.


 ... then you go ahead and sue New York times for that "false" story which I'll post in its entirety below.



> You should make an apology to the forum instead of demanding that I stop correcting your lies.


 ... you should better start preparing an exit from this forum if not asking for a ban, let alone asking me to make an apology on this forum for YOUR LIES.



> Please name the 7 people supposedly killed on Jan 6 and how they died.


 ... the names are below as the entire news piece is now posted which you HAVEN'T READ NOR CARED TO.



> _*These Are the People Who Died in Connection With the Capitol Riot*
> A bipartisan Senate report found that at least seven people had lost their lives in connection with the Jan. 6 attack.
> 
> A memorial in Washington last year for Officer Brian D. Sicknick of the Capitol Police, who was attacked by the mob storming the Capitol last Jan. 6.Credit...Anna Moneymaker for The New York Times
> ...


Happy now? MORON.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

I'm not going to subscribe to the NYT to read one story.

Strokes and heart attacks, some not even on the same day were used to artificially inflate fatalities. Then the Democrats tried to include suicides that occurred several months later as well.

What a joke. Anyone who believes the padded numbers and the lies is the moron, not me.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> I'm not going to subscribe to the NYT to read one story.


 ... don't care if you subscribe or not to NYT but that doesn't give you the right to accuse others, me of lying and that journalist of falsifying not to your BS likings which you're doing again in your second paragraph.



> Strokes and heart attacks, some not even on the same day were used to artificially inflate fatalities. Then the Democrats tried to include suicides that occurred several months later as well.


 ... now the spin, spin, spin, deflect, deflect, deflect tactic when it's proven you're the actual liar. Did a police officer NOT DIE from being attacked by the mob? No, according to you he died of a heart attack so what's the big deal? Like I said previously, in your eyes, cops don't count for beans.

Btw, why are you in Florida if you're so patriotic to ... is it the USA? or it to Canada?



> What a joke. Anyone who believes the padded numbers and the lies is the moron, not me.


 ... like I said, go sue NYT and the journalist for the now "padded" numbers and "false story". Better yet, tell the journalist he's a moron for writing that piece instead of trolling here. No, you're not just a moron, you're a super-troller.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Now you accuse me of not caring about cops because I question deliberately padded numbers.

You're just another angry troll. Added to the ignore list. You add nothing of value.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> Now you accuse me of not caring about cops because I question deliberately padded numbers.


 ... why don't you go back and read your post #7 stating that no cop was killed other than a participating rioter who was killed by a cop. Sounds like you're a caring fan of cops too.



> You're just another angry troll. Added to the ignore list. You add nothing of value.


 ... that's what I asked for initially to be put on your ignore list. But no, you had to accuse me of being a liar and wanted me to apologize to the forum. You're lucky you weren't told to go to hell first- just wait for your ban. Don't forget, I'm on your Ignore list now!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> Climate Change is real.
> Covid-19 is real.
> Evolution is a fact.
> The Earth is round and orbits the Sun.
> ...


The facts are real, the science is open to debate.



> Here's the full paragraph.
> "For unvaccinated hospitalization risk, 2% of Democrats responded correctly, compared with 16% of Republicans. In fact, 41% of Democrats replied that at least 50% of unvaccinated people have been hospitalized due to COVID-19."


From where?
Even at the early stages of the pandemic I think the hospitalization rate was around 10%, when everyone was unvaccinated.
In Ontario now we're getting what 10k new cases a day, and 200 new hospitalizations, that's a 2% hospitalization rate.

Assuming that of the 10k, 10% or 1k were unvaccinated, and if half the hospitalizations were unvaccinated (not true, it's like 30%), that's still only 100, or 10% of unvaccinated people getting COVID are getting hospitalized.

Your claim that 50% of unvaxxed have been hospitalized doesn't make sense.


Heck in Canada COVID-19 vaccination coverage in Canada - Canada.ca








about 10 Million are unvaccinated, but we've only had a total of 2.4M cases.









So even if you assume all 2.4M cases we've ever had, happened only to unvaccinated people, we can't get close to 50% even having COVID, and our hospitalization is way less.


I think you don't know what you're talking about.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> Climate Change is real.
> Covid-19 is real.
> Evolution is a fact.
> The Earth is round and orbits the Sun.
> ...


The facts are real, the science is open to debate.

More importantly the political policy might not actually correspond to the underlying science, let along the actual facts of the situation.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> You're pushing a terrorist agenda. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting a violent insurrection against the United States of America.


What violent insurrection?
The one that the FBI investigation didn't find?









Exclusive: FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated - sources


The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.




www.reuters.com





Face it, Jan 6 was a protest that got way out of hand.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Face it, Jan 6 was a protest that got way out of hand.


They came to stop the government from operating. That's not a protest, it's an attempt to stop the democratic process and stop the core operation of government. Many of them were violent, and beat up many cops. They also appeared to be hunting down politicians with the intent to kill.

Whether or not it was centrally coordinated does not change any of these facts. It just means it wasn't centrally coordinated.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

All will be revealed soon.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They came to stop the government from operating.


Which is what the people burning down government buildings in Portland were doing as well.



> That's not a protest, it's an attempt to stop the democratic process and stop the core operation of government.


Yes, in both cases.
Which is why then, as now I denounced the violence, in both cases.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Which is what the people burning down government buildings in Portland were doing as well.


Not at all. The protesters there were just impeding regular procedural work.

They certainly were not stopping an election from happening, not stopping one of the most vital government activities of a transition of power. You can't possibly think these are on the same level.

In Washington DC, the protesters were stopping the critical activity of election certification and handing over power.

Additionally the government offices in Portland (DHS) were minor auxiliary branches. It would have been a different matter if those protests were at DHS head offices and actually stopping core DHS functions, but that's not the case.

Man you right wingers sure get dramatic when it suits you. Other times you call everyone else a dramatic snowflake.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

So what you are saying is that protesters in Portland who burnt down government building were stopping the government from operating, but the work of government wasn't important so it is fine?
And protesters in Washington who broke buildings' windows were stopping the government from operating, but the work of government was important so they deserve jail time and tried to quash democracy?

Can you let me know ahead of time which government buildings are fine to burn down, or during which legislative period, in order to be called a social justice warrior, and which buildings or legislation sessions will make you a terrorist instead?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> So what you are saying is that protesters in Portland who burnt down government building...


The protesters obviously should not harm property or set fire to buildings and should face consequences for it. All of that is illegal.

All of this is irrelevant anyway, just the knee-jerk "what aboutisms" the right wing is obsessed with. A very typical far right reaction, a method they learn from right wing media. This is a way to draw attention from the right wing's horrendous activities, something that @Eder and @MrMatt have engaged in for a long time (a way to cover and defend the far right) and @damian13ster is another right winger trying the same thing.

The issue is that MAGA people stormed and took over the Capitol and drove lawmakers into hiding. This thread has nothing to do with other protesters, animal right protesters, or friends of Tibet, etc.

MAGA people stormed the Capitol, beat up cops, and threatened to kill top government officials.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> *The protesters obviously should not harm property or set fire to buildings and should face consequences for it. All of that is illegal.*
> 
> All of this is irrelevant anyway, just the knee-jerk "what aboutisms" the right wing is obsessed with. A very typical far right reaction, a method they learn from right wing media. This is a way to draw attention from the right wing's horrendous activities, something that @Eder and @MrMatt have engaged in for a long time (a way to cover and defend the far right) and @damian13ster is another right winger trying the same thing.
> 
> ...


The bolded is where the facts are.

Rest is just your opinion. You can say right wing is doing 'whataboutism' (although I am curious why, the definition doesn't seem to apply at all), you can say whatever else you want - after all this is just your own subjective opinion. One can say left wing is hypocritical and has double standard - also a subjective opinion. All of those are just opinions and aren't really worth much.

Your labels are also worthless. What's your definition of right-wing. You know very little, to almost nothing about me, and I imagine it is the same with Mr.Matt, yet you already put a label on. That's precisely the closed-mindness which leads to lack of objectivity and extremism - root cause of societal division.

The other people who stormed and actually burned down governments building have a lot to do with this thread, precisely because they show the double-standards society applies. Objectivity is sadly gone from public discussion.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> You can say right wing is doing 'whataboutism' (although I am curious why, the definition doesn't seem to apply at all), you can say whatever else you want - after all this is just your own subjective opinion


I say this because you're bringing up something irrelevant. What other kinds of protesters (like those who want to free Tibet) do, is irrelevant to the significant riots and aggression towards the government on January 6.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

james4beach said:


> I say this because you're bringing up something irrelevant. What other kinds of protesters (like those who want to free Tibet) do, is irrelevant to the significant riots and aggression towards the government on January 6.


You feel it is irrelevant because you generally focus on irrelevant information - chasing a shiny new toy politician gave you so you get distracted.

You do that with COVID. Focusing on 10% of people who made different medical choices than you did instead of seeing how ineffective those in charge have been.

And you do that here, focusing on couple hundred idiots vs considering and focusing on root cause of the problems. 
Shiny new toy given by politicians to keep you busy and engaged.
Trump himself was not a cause of division - he was a symptom.
The cause was permeation of ideologies into all faucets of life increasing divisions within society, discouraging debates, exchange of ideas, and disenfranchising significant portion of population. 
Trump took advantage of that - he was a symptom of a disease that took roots in politics a long time ago.

Unfortunately, instead of focusing on the cause of the problems, they made you focus on a symptom. So you get rabid about couple hundred idiots instead of questioning how we got there in the first place.

This is precisely why bringing up other rioters who stormed and burned down government buildings is extremely relevant. It shows that the ideologies that led to the division and hate have permeated not only media, politics, but also law enforcement and legal system. Legal decisions are being made based on ideologies, on 'whataboutism' rather than on actions that the perpetrators took. The checks and balances are being removed - at rapid pace.

Instead of addressing the cause of the division and hate, politicians doubled down and are driving the wedge even further. In the meantime you keep playing with your shiny toy and be ignorant about the furthering of the very causes that have led to it.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

The people protesting (and in some cases rioting) on Jan 6 made the mistake of thinking that they'd be treated the same as left wing protestors and rioters. They found out the hard way that isn't the case.

I want all rioters and protestors treated equally. 

James wants them to be treated differently. The government wants them treated differently. And that's the problem.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They came to stop the government from operating.





MrMatt said:


> Which is what the people burning down government buildings in Portland were doing as well.





james4beach said:


> Not at all. The protesters there were just impeding regular procedural work.


It constantly surprises me that for someone who has above average financial knowledge, you have this level of political bias/blindness.



> Man you right wingers sure get dramatic when it suits you. Other times you call everyone else a dramatic snowflake.


I think it was as wrong to engage in a violent riot in city X.
It was wrong to damage government buildings in city X.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

All will be revealed.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> It constantly surprises me that for someone who has above average financial knowledge, you have this level of political bias/blindness.


Hilarious. You're one of the most biased people here on political matters. The DC riots are a great example of this. You often talk about how important upholding society's most valuable principles are, and there is nothing more central to our society than democracy and freedom. Democracy is central to our way of life. And yet here, you have an example of aggressors who tried to overthrow democracy.

But for some reason, the DC riot doesn't seem to worry you much, even though its an insult to your [supposedly] most sacred principles. But I think the riot doesn't bother you much because you sympathize and identify with those MAGA guys to some extent.

This makes me wonder what your core values really are. Is liberal democracy actually important to you? Do you support free elections, and peaceful transition of power?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

The events of January 6, 2020 on Capitol Hills was an insurrection/coup attempt that became unsuccessful and subequently morphed into a "riot" (in the tamest terms), not a protest even however turned violent. 

Protestings does not require direct storming directly into (governmental) buildings, smashing stuffs and screaming to hang Mike Pence or other officials. Nor does putting up 2 dirty boots on Nancy Pelosi's desk representative of a "protest" - of what exactly there?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

They constructed gallows outside the government building. They went inside chanting "hang Mike Pence", forcing their way through barricades and police barriers.

If they had succeeded in capturing Pelosi, Pence and others, the crowd could have executed them on the scene. They seemed ready to do it. They were violently attacking police and almost beat one cop to death.

That's far right extremists for you: pretend they love police, pretend they love law and order... while beating up and crushing cops and trying to overturn law & order. They are a menace to society.

Right wing extremism is probably going to end the United States of America in its modern form. The country might turn towards fascism or authoritarianism.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Hilarious. You're one of the most biased people here on political matters.


Absolutely



> The DC riots are a great example of this.


Not sure how, a protest got violent and it was quickly quelled.
Public officials were quick to condemn the actions.
Isn't that what we wanted to happen?



> You often talk about how important upholding society's most valuable principles are, and there is nothing more central to our society than democracy and freedom. Democracy is central to our way of life. And yet here, you have an example of aggressors who tried to overthrow democracy.


And they were quickly stopped by law enforcement.



> But for some reason, the DC riot doesn't seem to worry you much, even though its an insult to your [supposedly] most sacred principles. But I think the riot doesn't bother you much because you sympathize and identify with those MAGA guys to some extent.


Why would I worry about a situation where pretty much everyone in power agreed it was wrong and needed to stop?
Once the initial situation was resolved, there was very little to be concerned about, pretty much everyone agreed they should not have let that happen.



> This makes me wonder what your core values really are. Is liberal democracy actually important to you? Do you support free elections, and peaceful transition of power?


I've been very clear on free elections, you're simply trolling to suggest I don't.

I have some of the most liberal values here, and for free elections specifically I've written extensively how they are under threat with the interest into online voting etc, which CAN'T be free and secure.
Without free elections we don't have a democracy.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Precisely. On January 6, the reaction from everyone other than whoever was responsible for capitol security is exactly what it should be. 
There were couple hundred idiots, that's pretty much it. There was absolutely no threat to democracy and authorities reacted exactly the way they should have.
In the meantime, during summer riots, the authorities didn't react. That is why it is much more worrying and much higher risk to democracy and freedom. When authorities ignore the mob - that's a problem. When authorities react properly to the mob - then that's a good thing. 
On January 6 they reacted properly.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The public knows what they saw live on national television. Their eyes don't deceive them. Justice must prevail.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The FBI is now moving up to the conspirators of the riot, who will face serious felony charges for conspiracy to obstruct Congress.

They will have their day in court and spend their years in prison. Donald Trump is on the list.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The rise of mob rioting from both extremes is concerning to the principles of democracy and the rule of law. Add in the constant attacks against the police and their reluctance to enforce the law is also very troubling. Canada is not out of the woods on this front. I can point out a number of rail and other blockades that ignored court orders and injunctions. A few close calls with terrorists to boot.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> The rise of mob rioting from both extremes is concerning to the principles of democracy and the rule of law. Add in the constant attacks against the police and their reluctance to enforce the law is also very troubling. Canada is not out of the woods on this front. I can point out a number of rail and other blockades that ignored court orders and injunctions. A few close calls with terrorists to boot.


I agree, the problem is when authorities refuse to enforce the law


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

zinfit said:


> A few close calls with terrorists to boot.


Absolutely. A right wing extremist army reservist loaded up his truck with guns, and went to Ottawa, rammed his truck into the gate at the PM's residence. RCMP eventually responded and there was a foot chase, the terrorist with his loaded weapon on the grounds of the PM's residence.

Similarly, a neo Nazi extremist (Patrik Mathews) in Manitoba, also a military reservist with weapons training, was in a right wing terrorist cell in Canada. He fled to the United States, where the FBI soon picked him up. His terrorist network was planning a variety of attacks, both in Canada and the US. He's now serving 9 years in prison.

The RCMP doesn't seem very good at catching domestic terrorists. They didn't do anything about Patrik Mathews until a young reporter from the Winnipeg Free Press wrote a story on him. And Mathews quickly evaded the RCMP and was able to flee the country.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

James, no need to dig into the archives, An Antifa terrorist was arrested with a bomb just a few days back on Jan 6.

I'm not sure how you missed that...


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Absolutely. A right wing extremist army reservist loaded up his truck with guns, and went to Ottawa, rammed his truck into the gate at the PM's residence. RCMP eventually responded and there was a foot chase, the terrorist with his loaded weapon on the grounds of the PM's residence.
> 
> Similarly, a neo Nazi extremist (Patrik Mathews) in Manitoba, also a military reservist with weapons training, was in a right wing terrorist cell in Canada. He fled to the United States, where the FBI soon picked him up. His terrorist network was planning a variety of attacks, both in Canada and the US. He's now serving 9 years in prison.
> 
> The RCMP doesn't seem very good at catching domestic terrorists. They didn't do anything about Patrik Mathews until a young reporter from the Winnipeg Free Press wrote a story on him. And Mathews quickly evaded the RCMP and was able to flee the country.


Go back to the Harper years the RCMP uncovered a major ring of jihadists bent on beheading Harper and blowing up the Langevin building and CN Towers. Another group had big plans for blowing up a major train.A couple were nabbed with a plot to ignite a big nail bomb at Victoria on July 1 and all remember the assault on Parliament and the terroist was killed by a clerk of the H of Cs. Around September 11 the USA nabbed a Canadian jidahist plot from Canada to blow up the LA Airport. We have extremists on both sides of the extremes. The media likes to focus on right wing extremists when there is no shortage on the left.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

zinfit said:


> The media likes to focus on right wing extremists when there is no shortage on the left.


The examples you give are all religious conservative (muslim) schemes, or supposed schemes. They have more in common with christian fundamentalist right wing ideology than with any liberal agenda.

And,



> A couple were nabbed with a plot to ignite a big nail bomb at Victoria


...and it was later determined that the whole scheme was thought up and driven by the police themselves.









B.C. Court of Appeal: Couple convicted in Victoria terror case entrapped by RCMP


Appeals court agrees with trial judge's ruling that John Nuttall and Amanda Korody were manipulated by police.




vancouversun.com







> Appeals court agrees with trial judge's ruling that John Nuttall and Amanda Korody were manipulated by police.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

sags said:


> The public knows what they saw live on national television.


Just like they knew exactly what Trump was saying when he said that Mexico sends rapists and murderers or that there were great folks on "both sides" of the unite-the-right fiasco.

The frightening thing is how many people basically sat back and though "yeah, I'm okay with that; he's my boy". The folks that are on-side on the agenda are just going to make excuses and bend their standards to ignore the core problems. Fox news has folks working 24/7 coming up with rationalizations and whataboutisms to keep the waters nice and muddy.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Unite the right? Lol. Someone's been watching too much CNN. You can tell because they always bring up Fox.

I've lost track of how many pedophiles CNN has fired in the last month or so. Was it 2?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gardner said:


> ...and it was later determined that the whole scheme was thought up and driven by the police themselves.


It speaks to a general problem with police and intelligence in the US & Canada. As institutions they are strongly right-leaning, and pretty much turn a blind eye to domestic extremists such as white supremacists and far-right extremists. Many in the police, intelligence, and military are right-leaning themselves, and they also rather sympathetic to right wing extremists.

That's why police never saw those MAGA attackers coming on January 6, and why the RCMP never went after either Mathews or Hurren until it was too late. Of course those of us who spend time online actually see the right wing extremists everywhere. They operate in plain sight, even sometimes on this forum.

To be fair, the FBI and DHS are actually better at catching right wing extremists than Canadian authorities, because Americans have a long history of domestic terrorism. For example look at how fast they caught Mathews, when the RCMP did absolutely nothing.

Law enforcement is just itching to go after any kind of muslim they can find, so they spy on mosques, harass innocent men, or (in the case of that Nuttall case) they just fabricate the crimes. The RCMP learned that tactic from the FBI, who has a long history of planning fake terror plots and entrapping muslims.

We're going to see more far-right attacks like January 6 and their mass shootings and bombings, and what particularly scares me is that police have no interest in stopping these. Police and intelligence services have the same attitude as @MrMatt @damian13ster @HappilyRetired ... which is "these are just troubled boys, not a big deal". Always making excuses for them and shrugging off the threat.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

zinfit said:


> Go back to the Harper years the RCMP uncovered a major ring of jihadists bent on beheading Harper and blowing up the Langevin building and CN Towers. Another group had big plans for blowing up a major train


The difference here is that police and intelligence actually is always watching for this kind of radical muslim threat, so I have absolutely no concern about them dropping the ball. They are totally and utterly obsessed with this stuff.

But my concern (as I describe in my post above) is that police & intelligence does not bring anywhere close to that enthusiasm to tackle other kinds of domestic terrorists. Take a look at the story of that neo-nazi terrorist from Manitoba. The guy who exposed him was a junior reporter with the local newspaper! It shows how the police never even bothered to look.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Don't try to pretend you know what my attitude is. You know ****.
Only thing I am saying entire time is people who commit crimes should be caught and prosecuted. No difference where they lay on political spectrum. That's it.
People who burn down government buildings should be prosecuted
People who storm government buildings should be prosecuted
People who commit crime should be prosecuted.

Not sure why you aren't able to comprehend it


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It speaks to a general problem with police and intelligence in the US & Canada. As institutions they are strongly right-leaning, and pretty much turn a blind eye to domestic extremists such as white supremacists and far-right extremists. Many in the police, intelligence, and military are right-leaning themselves, and they also rather sympathetic to right wing extremists.


Because they tend not to be the ones attacking them.
How many police stations or DHS or ICE offices were attacked by right wing extremists, vs left wing extremistist?



> and why the RCMP never went after either Mathews or Hurren until it was too late.


And we don't have pre-crime units.



> Police and intelligence services have the same attitude as @MrMatt @damian13ster @HappilyRetired ... which is "these are just troubled boys, not a big deal". Always making excuses for them and shrugging off the threat.


Never said that.
Specific to Jan 6, I have always stood against the violent actions that took place that day.
No excuses, no shrugging off.

The fact that everyone is taking it seriously is WHY I don't see a huge systematic problem here. Nobody wants that to happen again.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> It speaks to a general problem with police and intelligence in the US & Canada. As institutions they are strongly right-leaning, and pretty much turn a blind eye to domestic extremists such as white supremacists and far-right extremists. Many in the police, intelligence, and military are right-leaning themselves, and they also rather sympathetic to right wing extremists.


Left wing police chiefs and mayors order the police to stand down. That why illegal road and rail blockades happen. The police also stand by and watch left wing thugs burn, loot, and vandalize. Minneapolis suffered $500 million in damage. Violent leftist took over entire city blocks while the police did nothing. The rare time a left wing criminal is arrested they're usually released quickly.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

Understand this,

The American people would not have spoken to each other, nor about each other, not in left or right terms or descriptions, nor in such a demeaning way before that disgusting, uneducated, self-righteous orange lunatic came into power. Sure, there's always been rifts between political parties but never to this degree that we are seeing, and have seen for the past few years. It is truly saddening what has happened and it will be many years until people start to come together again. 

Doing what is right is not about left or right.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

50yearoldmechanic said:


> Understand this,
> 
> The American people would not have spoken to each other, nor about each other, not in left or right terms or descriptions, nor in such a demeaning way before that disgusting, uneducated, self-righteous orange lunatic came into power. Sure, there's always been rifts between political parties but never to this degree that we are seeing, and have seen for the past few years. It is truly saddening what has happened and it will be many years until people start to come together again.
> 
> Doing what is right is not about left or right.


Your ranting post of hatred sums up how most of the left has been for 5 years. But it's not Trump's fault, it's good old leftist ideology finally rearing its ugly face. People that didn't vote for Hillary had to put up with 5 years of raving lunacy. Trump has been gone for a year and you still can't get over it.

Get a life.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> Your ranting post of hatred sums up how most of the left has been for 5 years. But it's not Trump's fault, it's good old leftist ideology finally rearing its ugly face. People that didn't vote for Hillary had to put up with 5 years of raving lunacy. Trump has been gone for a year and you still can't get over it.
> 
> Get a life.


I hope you have a really enjoyable evening.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)




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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Republicans deny what they said about the Capital riot, because of who they are.........liars.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

50yearoldmechanic said:


> I hope you have a really enjoyable evening.


We did. 

I hope you can eventually get over your hatred.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> We did.
> 
> I hope you can eventually get over your hatred.


I think you've completely misunderstood what I was saying in my original post. 

Really, have a nice day, there's no need to banter back and forth. We aren't teenagers.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

50yearoldmechanic said:


> I think you've completely misunderstood what I was saying in my original post.
> 
> Really, have a nice day, there's no need to banter back and forth. We aren't teenagers.


I didn't miss what you said, your viewpoint was quite clear. You went on an unhinged rant against Trump and the people that voted for him and are completely oblivious that it's your type of divisive mindset that creates problems. You still haven't got over it.

I agree that there's no further need to banter because you'll never see that you're a big part of the problem.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> I didn't miss what you said, your viewpoint was quite clear. You went on an unhinged rant against Trump and the people that voted for him and are completely oblivious that it's your type of divisive mindset that creates problems. You still haven't got over it.
> 
> I agree that there's no further need to banter because you'll never see that you're a big part of the problem.


----------



## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

50yearoldmechanic said:


>


Well thought out and articulate reply. And even though I have 2 members on ignore (for very good reason) it shows that they loved your response. That's not a surprise....they insult anyone who doesn't agree with their extremist ideology on a daily basis.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> Well thought out and articulate reply. And even though I have 2 members on ignore (for very good reason) it shows that they loved your response. That's not a surprise....they insult anyone who doesn't agree with their extremist ideology on a daily basis.


Did you know that Trump deported a printer? It didn't have any papers.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

US prosecutors have brought the most serious charges yet, against 11 far right militants. Some of them are ex military members.

11 members of this far right militia are charged with seditious conspiracy, accused of conspiring with others to "oppose by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of presidential power".

They had planned to bring weapons to DC and had also worn military-style tactical gear as they attacked the Capitol. Obviously not just a bunch of harmless, disorganized protesters. These men face up to 20 years in prison for seditious conspiracy, and more charges are coming.









U.S. charges far-right militia leader with seditious conspiracy in Capitol riot


U.S. prosecutors on Thursday charged the founder of the far-right Oath Keepers militia, Stewart Rhodes, and 10 alleged members of the group with seditious conspiracy for their role in the deadly Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol.




www.ctvnews.ca


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

james4beach said:


> US prosecutors have brought the most serious charges yet, against 11 far right militants. Some of them are ex military members.
> 
> 11 members of this far right militia are charged with seditious conspiracy, accused of conspiring with others to "oppose by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of presidential power".
> 
> ...


I hope they get the full 20 years. Absolutely shameful.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

On the early tv news I flipped on as I was waking up I heard there were now charges against a handful of militia leaders of sedition. 

So that is going to turn up the the on this issue even more, but I suspect the charges are reasonable. 

This was not a spur of the moment protest. where all were going to stand around and sing 'kum-by-ya my lord' and lock arm to arm with their brother.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

50yearoldmechanic said:


> I hope they get the full 20 years. Absolutely shameful.


I couldn't agree more.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

50yearoldmechanic said:


> I hope they get the full 20 years. Absolutely shameful.


 ... life is gonna get exciting behind bars for this former paratrooper and Yales-educated lawyer plus his cronies ... boing.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

Everything in the US is politicized too much. There were 274 leftist riots across the US after George Floyd. Dozens died about 2000 police were injured and there was billions done in property damage. In Seattle and some Democrat cities the protesters took over entire downtown city blocks for weeks on end while Democrat state governors and mayors sat idly by and did nothing. Kamala Harris was bailing some of them out and encouraging them to keep up the protests.

Sleepy Joe and the liberal leftist clown show don't care about any of this and are fixated on this one protest only because it involved some right wing protesters.

The march on the Capitol buildings wasn't right either but there were no investigations or senate committees and little interest into the 274 left wing riots as Democrats don't want to go after the defund the police left wing part of their voter base. No wonder Democrat Sleepy Joe 's support has fallen to only 33%.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Only the Trump inspired riot was focused on violently overturning an election and democracy.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

Jimmy said:


> Everything in the US is politicized too much. There were 274 leftist riots across the US after George Floyd. Dozens died about 2000 police were injured and there was billions done in property damage. In Seattle and some Democrat cities the protesters took over entire downtown city blocks for weeks on end while Democrat state governors and mayors sat idly by and did nothing. Kamala Harris was bailing some of them out and encouraging them to keep up the protests.
> 
> Sleepy Joe and the liberal leftist clown show don't care about any of this and are fixated on this one protest only because it involved some right wing protesters.
> 
> The march on the Capitol buildings wasn't right either but there were no investigations or senate committees and little interest into the 274 left wing riots as Democrats don't want to go after the defund the police left wing part of their voter base. No wonder Democrat Sleepy Joe 's support has fallen to only 33%.


I completely agree with what you wrote and that it's not one sided. The riots you mentioned were awful and you're right that it seemed like no one wanted to stop them. I do think however that if orange man wasn't the leader of the free world at the time, things would have been a lot different.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

sags said:


> Only the Trump inspired riot was focused on violently overturning an election and democracy.


Nope Democrats delegitimized the Trump presidency as a candidate and in office. Pushed their fake Russia conspiracy for 3 yrs Hilary still wont accept the results.

No one wanted to overturned anything either. It was a protest of how the election was held. The rest is Democrat poltical opportunism and we'll leave it there as I am not going wade into this.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

50yearoldmechanic said:


> I completely agree with what you wrote and that it's not one sided. The riots you mentioned were awful and you're right that it seemed like no one wanted to stop them. I do think however that if orange man wasn't the leader of the free world at the time, things would have been a lot different.


The Democrat and their media establishment are as much to blame. They delegitimized his candidacy, election win and presidency for 6 years w their hoaxes. Same for the weaponized justice system. He was outspoken but between the FBI leaking and the press parsing and distorting every word they were as much to blame for all the hatred on both sides IMO. Everything there is way too politicized. They can't even police their cities properly because that is political w groups always crying racism , defund the police and much worse. 

Same for immigration. Their southern borders are a mess now. Not letting illegals flood in is also a poltical , race and xenophobic issue vs just being a national security issue.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

If the Right Wing had their way, there'd be a state-run party-controlled highly censored media. In Ontario, that's OntarioNews Now set up by Doug Ford.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

Ontario news was too inform people of govt programs. 

You should be more worried about Trudeau increasing teh $1.3 B in funding to the state broadcasting CBC and the other $600M he dumped to bribe or 'bailout' local media outlets. The left were the ones who always wanted state control over media.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Throughout history, conservatives have aided, abetted, and ushered in dictatorships and authoritarian governments.

From Hitler to Trump, conservatives are so keen on defeating liberalism that they convince themselves they can manage and manipulate any populist candidate to enact their own right wing agenda.

Hitler, Trump, Mussolini, and others proved the conservatives wrong. In Canada, some conservatives now look to Max Bernier as their useful idiot.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In the past, being found guility of sedition and betrayal of a country meant execution as the punishment.

Today, the guilty looking at punishment of 20 years in prison are getting a comparitively light sentence by historical standards.

It is an ironic twist of fate that modern day traitors enjoy the lighter sentences previously enacted by liberal minded governments.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

sags said:


> Throughout history, conservatives have aided, abetted, and ushered in dictatorships and authoritarian governments.
> 
> From Hitler to Trump, conservatives are so keen on defeating liberalism that they convince themselves they can manage and manipulate any populist candidate to enact their own right wing agenda.
> 
> Hitler, Trump, Mussolini, and others proved the conservatives wrong. In Canada, some conservatives now look to Max Bernier as their useful idiot.


Nice propaganda, I hope you actually don't believe any of that. No they haven't. Right wing is actually free enterprise and less govt control more 'liberalism' as you put it. Your talking pts are all backward. There are more left wing authoritarian socialist govts in reality Russia , China , N Korea , Vietnam , Cambodia, Cuba, Venezuela etc etc

Hitler was a left wing socialist economically same for Mussolini. He oversaw state control of production to build up Germany. Stalin, Mao , Castro etc were the ones who controlled and manipulated. They usually just executed, exiled or imprisoned any opposing views instead. How anyone could support any of their twisted left wing ideology in this day and age is beyond me.

Useful idiot was even a Lenin communist expression for the manipulated populace lol. Either way we'll leave it there.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> If the Right Wing had their way, there'd be a state-run party-controlled highly censored media. In Ontario, that's OntarioNews Now set up by Doug Ford.


Uhh you have an interesting political compass.
The NDP & Liberals actually support the state run party controlled media, and they're trying to buy off the rest of the media.
They are also working with social media for censorship.

Most people consider the CPC and PC "right wing", and the CPC is typically for cutting CBC funding. PC is just provincial so it's kind of out of their jurisdiction.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Only the Trump inspired riot was focused on violently overturning an election and democracy.


And trying to hunt down and kill top elected government officials.



sags said:


> Today, the guilty looking at punishment of 20 years in prison are getting a comparitively light sentence by historical standards.


It's because they have many sympathizers. In a recent poll, something like 1/3 of Republicans endorse political violence. The Republican party themselves are full of extremists. When the American right wing is such a violent extremist movement overall, it's very hard to bring justice to them.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A basket of deplorables.....said Hillary Clinton, who apparently is musing a comeback in 2024.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Well, that's not quite reflecting the reality.
Here are the facts:

So where do things stand a year later? “I think the broader threat is greater than it was last year,” Kalmoe told me in an interview this past December. In a survey conducted in June 2021, Kalmoe and Mason found that 24 percent of Republicans and 19 percent of Democrats said that violence against the other party was at least a little okay. Among Republicans who falsely believe that Democrats cheated during the 2020 election, support for violence was 10 percentage points higher. And a Washington Post/University of Maryland poll conducted in mid-December found that 34 percent of Americans said it was at least sometimes justified for citizens to take violent action against the government, up from 23 percent when the question was last asked in 2015.

The 1/3 was in reference to all Americans, not Republicans.
The support for violence against other party is slightly higher among Republicans, but Democrats aren't exactly innocent here, 24 to 19




https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/dec-17-19-2021-washington-post-university-of-maryland-poll/2960c330-4bbd-4b3a-af9d-72de946d7281/



Fun fact, more people saw Trump's victory in 2016 as illegitimate than Biden's victory
Or is your theory that it was Republican's who saw Trump's election as illegitimate?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The problem in the US isn't protests.

The problem is the arrival at protests of armed people and militia groups.

The "open carry" and "self defence....stand your ground" laws in the US have led to the change from peaceful protests to armed standoffs between opposing sides of an issue.

Imagine if in Canada there is a protest for or against some law or policy, and one group shows up wearing military gear and carrying AR15s.

Imagine a situation in Canada where two young guys walk down the street in front of your house carrying AR15s, people call the police, the police respond and have to ask the guys a bunch of questions to ascertain if they are legal. The guys are legal and allowed to continue on, and they film it all for a Youtube video to earn followers. It creates a dangerous situation for police of having to respond to such calls without knowing the intent of the guys with the guns. It uses up valuable public resources for policing that could be better used stopping or catching criminals.

The strange part for me is Republicans think that situation is just fine. 

That is a clear difference between Canada and the US and we need to keep it that way.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

sags said:


> The problem in the US isn't protests.
> 
> The problem is the arrival at protests of armed people and militia groups.
> 
> ...


Agreed we need to keep it that way. This coming from an avid hunter with a small selection of ( legal ) firearms and currently locked up.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Tostig said:


> If the Right Wing had their way, there'd be a state-run party-controlled highly censored media. In Ontario, that's OntarioNews Now set up by Doug Ford.


And yet Trudeau gave the media $700 million and they bend over to do his bidding.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

50yearoldmechanic said:


> I completely agree with what you wrote and that it's not one sided. The riots you mentioned were awful and you're right that it seemed like no one wanted to stop them. I do think however that if orange man wasn't the leader of the free world at the time, things would have been a lot different.


I agree. If Trump hadn't been elected the left wing rioters would have had no reason burn down cities.

Trump won in 2016 and there was widespread rioting and arson.

Trump lost in 2020 and a few people walked around the Capital building taking selfies. Democrat heads exploded in rage.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So you are saying Trump and his AG Barr failed to deal with the rioting. I can believe that, as they both liked to stir things up.

Now there is a new law and order sheriff in town and Biden and his AG Garland are rounding up the rowdies.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> The problem is the arrival at protests of armed people and militia groups.


When I was living in the US, still one of the craziest things I've seen to this day was when a busload of armed right wing militia men came into my city.

These are organized events, where a mix of right wing protesters + armed extremists gather at staging locations, and then someone pays to coordinate and transport them to the destination.

The first time I saw it, I was just so confused. I took a bunch of photos and sent them to coworkers, asking "what the hell is this?" because I couldn't make sense of it. Who are these nut jobs and why is a bus full of them arriving in town?

A few months later there was another event like this. Again, the armed extremists arrived in town, but this time climbed onto rooftops of office buildings with their rifles. There were armed men on the rooftop near my office building. I said to myself, this is too weird, I'm getting the hell out of here -- and I went home.

*That's right wing terrorism* and it happens all the time in America.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

James probably could have lived in CHAZ last summer and still thought the right wing was the problem.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> When I was living in the US, still one of the craziest things I've seen to this day was when a busload of armed right wing militia men came into my city.
> 
> These are organized events, where a mix of right wing protesters + armed extremists gather at staging locations, and then someone pays to coordinate and transport them to the destination.
> 
> ...


 ... at least in the USA, it's all out open and advertised and you can choose not to buy it whereas you can't in Canada where it's cloaked. You can have a 110% right wing extremist living right and/or working next to you whilst pretending not to be one only 'cause they got to follow the laws.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Wow......the evidence is mounting of a planned violent revolution directed by the White House that involved kidnapping or killing VP Mike Pence.

He refused to get into the car with the US Secret Service agents ? Why did Senator Chuck Grassley say on January 5th that he would be presiding over the electoral vote because VP Pence wouldn't be there the next day ? All the panic buttons in the Capital were disconnected and security codes were changed ?

DId Ted Cruz and others try to pave the way for the takeover by challenging those particular States electoral votes ? A lot of questions need answers.

It sounds like a military style coup was planned but fell apart when Pence wouldn't go along with it and refused to get in the car or stay away.

Pence changed the wording in his electoral vote process declaration to keep the fake documents (with fake DOJ seals) out of the process ?

Who created fake electoral documents for the 7 US States that were all identical ? Who are the people who claim to be the rightful electoral voters ?

As one law enforcement guy said...the culprits are now facing the "prisoner's dilemna", which is do they turn on the others before they others turn on them.

_"There ain't much pride when your trapped inside........a slowly sinking ship"._


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is also clear that the Senate Committee and law enforcement know a lot more than those involved thought they did.

VP Pence isn't cooperating personally yet, but all of his staff are fully cooperating with his blessing.

*Keith Kellogg,*_ the V.P.’s former national security adviser. Farah, who spoke with the committee several times in 2021, seemed surprised to find out “how much information [the committee] already had,” telling Axios that while those refusing to cooperate “likely are doing so out of complete fealty to Donald Trump and not wanting to piss him off,” it’s clear investigators already have their numbers. *“They’re realizing the committee has quite a bit more information than they realized. And their involvement is known to a much greater degree than they realized,” she said. *_


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A breakdown of the timeline and activity by a very credible source and added information by posters.



https://twitter.com/search?q=asha%20rangappa&src=typed_query


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## sags (May 15, 2010)




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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

HappilyRetired said:


> James probably could have lived in CHAZ last summer and still thought the right wing was the problem.


If you recall he was posting links to the "unmarked secret police". 
Of course they were clearly identified uniformed officers. 

He's totally obsessed with right wing extremists, ignoring the massive amount of damage other groups are doing

Like the "George Floyd" protests, billions in damages, 9 people dead, but the real problem is "right wingers"








George Floyd protests - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

sags said:


> In1954, four pro independence Puerto Rican nationalists stormed the capitol. They were given 50 to 75 year sentences. Anyone looking for sentencing guidelines to apply...


They were brown people who probably spoke Spanish as a first language. Won't apply at all to WASPs I'm afraid.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> If you recall he was posting links to the "unmarked secret police".
> Of course they were clearly identified uniformed officers.
> 
> He's totally obsessed with right wing extremists, ignoring the massive amount of damage other groups are doing
> ...


I've only been here for a couple months so I'm unaware of earlier conversations, but I'm not surprised that he would have been oblivious to or just ignored left wing violence.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

In James' defense, completely ignoring reality and anything that doesn't support one's point of view is a trait for majority


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Like the "George Floyd" protests, billions in damages, 9 people dead, but the real problem is "right wingers"


Sadly the real problem is that people think violence is acceptable behaviour in response to anyone who holds an opinion or belief different than your own. The US is so polarized. Unfortunately, that is also starting to creep into Canada as well. Remember when the practice was to change your opinions based on seeking and verifying information. Now the standard is to change the information to match your opinion.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Good to see everyone agrees this is the time to send a strong message that violence won't be tolerated.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> He's totally obsessed with right wing extremists, ignoring the massive amount of damage other groups are doing


I'm not obsessed with them. They threatened my life, marched through my city with weapons and then set up sniper positions on rooftops near my office.

Only a lunatic would think that's normal to see, unless a country is at war.

But yes I do understand how that's normal in the eyes of @MrMatt , the ex military man. But MrMatt let me remind you that this isn't a third world country under occupation. This is peacetime in an American city. It's completely unacceptable to see armed militia men marching around in the streets. These guys honestly looked like they were the Taliban or some other middle eastern terrorist group.

Had their military fatigues and outfits too. They're the same kind of characters who were charged with seditious conspiracy for attacking DC.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I'm not obsessed with them. They threatened my life, marched through my city with weapons and then set up sniper positions on rooftops near my office.
> 
> Only a lunatic would think that's normal to see, unless a country is at war.
> 
> ...


You keep acting like I approve of their actions. 

I'm simply pointing out that they really aren't as bad as the left wing for 2 reasons.

1. The cause less death. The BLM protests killed 9 people, the capital hill riot ... how many did the rioters kill? I think I lost count at zero.
2. They cause less damage, billions vs a few million.
3. Most importantly, everyone condemed the capital hill riot, many endorse the BLM/George Floyd riots <<< That's the big issue. In some cases politicians even participated and ordered law enforcement to stand back.

People universally agree that right wing violence is wrong, and they are willing to act on it.
In too many cases the left wing violence is encouraged and sanctioned by government.

Do you really think that anyone would have let a right wing militia operate CHAZ? After there were a few murders, I'm sure someone would have stepped in.

The problem isn't the wrongness of the actors, it's the double standard.
Secondly I say throw every single criminal in jail, irrespective of political affiliation.

How many people have been prosecuted for destroying monuments? 
Did our PM violate COVID quarantine rules to participate in a "right wing" or "left wing" illegal protest?
The complicity of government encouraging lawlessness and political violence is the problem, on the face that is your issue with Capital Hill, but really it isn't since the official government support is minimal.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

The main problem too w the almost a year of left wing looting is it now has now become normalized and accepted. Every month you can watch on the news a Luis Vuitton, Gucci or other high end store being run over in broad daylight by a mob out of greed vs any kind of protest . There are no police to prevent it and Democrat state governors don't care to enforce the law anymore. . Nothing gets said about it in the left wing media either .

I would not want to be a retail business owner in the US because Democrats will not enforce law and order and treat the rioters w impunity.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Just because other people robbed banks, doesn't mean you can rob one too.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

Your left-wing govts normalized violence and looting so apparently you can.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It's completely unacceptable to see armed militia men marching around in the streets.


I don't know, what does US law say about it?
My understanding is that such behaviour is completely legal in some parts of the US.

I think such behaviour is not only unacceptable, but also illegal in Canada.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> This is peacetime in an American city. It's completely unacceptable to see armed militia men marching around in the streets. These guys honestly looked like they were the Taliban or some other middle eastern terrorist group.
> 
> Had their military fatigues and outfits too. They're the same kind of characters who were charged with seditious conspiracy for attacking DC.


It was armed thugs who chased down and tried to murder Kyle Rittenhouse.

It was armed thugs who took over several blocks in downtown Seattle and murdered several people. They were left alone by the police.

You're scared of the wrong people.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

HappilyRetired said:


> You're scared of the wrong people.


I'm scared of the people who brought guns and military-like "soldiers" near my home and office, who set up positions from which they could kill / massacre me.

The people who did this were armed right wing extremists.

Later, the same people (right wing militias) planned an armed assault on Washington DC. They rented hotel rooms and stored weapons and ammo. These are extremely dangerous people. I've seen them training, I've seen them do dry-run attacks on my city, and now they've been caught for attacking Washington DC.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

James, the FBI said no one was armed on Jan 6. Your claim of an armed assault is a provable lie.

How exactly were unarmed people supposed to take over the government?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

HappilyRetired said:


> James, the FBI said no one was armed on Jan 6. Your claim of an armed assault is a provable lie.
> 
> How exactly were unarmed people supposed to take over the government?


Evidence of weapons has come up a long time ago (we've known about weapons since mid 2021). The new federal charges against the militia members say they were heavily armed, and had prepared to bring weapons in the second stage of the government overthrow. The federal charges say that, immediately before the attack, members spent at least $27,000 on guns, ammo, and military gear.

Several months ago (second link below) it was already known that they had an arsenal of weapons located near Washington DC. The federal investigations revealed that they had a network of people, including accomplices located just outside of DC, who were storing an arsenal of weapons and ammo. The idea was that once the group seized control of the Capitol, weapons and ammo would be delivered to them from nearby.

So yes it's true that they didn't arrive at the Capitol with guns. But this was a tactical operation, and they planned a second stage where their guns and ammo would have been brought from nearby terrorist cells. Federal prosecutors know about the guns and it's part of the charges against them.









"Seditious conspiracy" charges against Oath Keepers mark a major advance in the January 6 investigation


The feds have arrested Oath Keepers leader Stewart Rhodes.




www.motherjones.com













A January 6 conspiracy case just got even worse for this group of pro-Trump extremists


The feds have 16 Oath Keepers—and the group's founder—in their sights.




www.motherjones.com


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Unarmed people were going to seize the Capital and then weapons would be delivered to them? And you actually believe that?

I'm guessing that the armed right wing extremists you think you saw in your neighborhood were just a couple toddlers wearing red hats.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

HappilyRetired said:


> Unarmed people were going to seize the Capital and then weapons would be delivered to them? And you actually believe that?
> 
> I'm guessing that the armed right wing extremists you think you saw in your neighborhood were just a couple toddlers wearing red hats.


Since you keep covering for them and excusing them, ever after federal charges have been laid, I suspect that YOU might be a right wing extremist.

Are you part of any terrorist networks or militia cell? It wouldn't surprise me at all if you are an extremist. You sure talk like one.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

If there's proof that they committed actual violence then I hope they're convicted. But we all know that if there was any real proof it would have been leaked within the first couple weeks and run on a 24/7 loop on CNN.

Based on the fact that no one had weapons and it took over a year to come up something to charge them with, I'm skeptical that anything bad really happened.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

Myself included, often people passionately argue their point without consequence. It's just like religion, we argue and claim triumphs even though we have absolutely 0 proof.

Ladies and Gentlemen, may I introduce to you the President of the United States, Mr. Donald Chump, sorry I mean Trump.

I mean look at this man, how on earth can anybody truly follow him and believe in him? Truly shocking, it really is.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent there. Now back to investing??










I had to add another, sorry, I couldn't help myself.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

Okay last one, I promise.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Now post some pics of Biden groping young girls. That's another way to distract from the topic.

Maybe you can defend James ridiculous claim that unarmed people planned to take over the Capital building and then have weapons delivered. I'd love to hear that one.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> Now post some pics of Biden groping young girls. That's another way to distract from the topic.
> 
> Maybe you can defend James ridiculous claim that unarmed people planned to take over the Capital building and then have weapons delivered. I'd love to hear that one.


No Sir, I'm done. That's all I had in me.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Shh, james uncovered another right wing terrorist - happilyretired! 
It doesn't matter that he didn't show any tendency to violence and is peacefully on this forum. 
This is just a first stage of his attack! Once he takes over only then the second stage will commence
The second stage is when his coconspirators will bring him weapons from the outside. 
Makes perfect sense - terrorist!!! convict him, 20 years is not enough FYI.

If someone seriously claims the idea was to take over capitol with no weapons, and then have weapons brought from the outside (not like the place would be surrounded by cops, national guards, army.......)........ well, there are closed facilities, and I don't mean jails, for people with imagination like that.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There were people armed with guns and pipe bombs arrested at the Capital riot.

Several have been charged and have future trials. One guy had a pickup truck full of weapons, ammunition and pipe bombs that was discovered by police.

Another had a loaded gun hidden under his body armor. Another had a utility trailer full of guns.

The FBI spokesperson is often quoted but without the full quote.

She said the FBI had not recovered any weapons, but clearly stated she did not speak for the Capital police, Washington police or other law enforcement.

They also don't know how many people had guns hidden in their clothing, because most of the mob ran away before they got arrested.

The evidence in the trials is sealed by the court until the trial.

There were also people who died from the riot and 140 police officers were injured. Many were injured with "weapons" other than guns.

Some of those charged have already pled guilty to assaulting police and been sentenced.

The evidence is substantial and includes witness testimony, a massive amount of video and pictures, and medical treatments.

It is ironic that it is video and statements posted on social media by members of the mob that provides the evidence to convict themselves.

Everything is going to come out into the public view. Hopefully the Congressional hearings will be held live so people hear all the evidence.









Yes, Capitol Rioters Were Armed. Here Are The Weapons Prosecutors Say They Used


An NPR review of federal charges against people involved in the Jan. 6 U.S. Capitol riot shows they were armed with a wide variety of weapons, contradicting a false claim that rioters were not armed.




www.npr.org


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is a serious felony to obstruct the business of Congress, or even to conspire or attempt to do so.

That charge alone applies to every rioter who breached the perimeter security and was on Capital grounds. It applies even more to those who battled police to gain entry to the Capital. This isn't a matter of simple "trespassing" charges, if the government wants to proceed with more serious crimes.

As the more serious crimes would require the option of an expensive jury trial, most of the charges will be laid so they are decided by a judge.

it is simply a matter of cost and efficiency. More serious charges may well involve jury trials as they carry heavy criminal penalities.

I suspect in most cases, the defendants will plead guilty to get a lesser punishment.

Anyone who believes the mob is going to walk away without consequence is dreaming in technicolor.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It isn't surprising the FBI didn't arrest people with guns at the Capital, since they weren't there defending it.

For a long time it was only the Capital police who defended the capital until the Washington police arrived.

The national guard was called to aid the Capital police but were not given permission by Trump to intervene.

The FBI arrived to investigate after the riot was over and the mob had dispersed, so they don't know how many people had guns.

There was one other law enforcement on the scene, and that was the Security Service detail for the Vice President.

They felt threatened enough that they led the VP away to a safe place and then blocked the only door into the area.

They will also provide testimony to the Congressional hearings and FBI investigators.

In should be remembered, that threatening the life of the President or VP of the US would likely get a person shot and killed in the attempt.

Had any of the mob breached that last door of protection, the Secret Service would have shot them dead on the spot.

The Secret Service are serious law enforcement and don't play "word" games.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> In should be remembered, that threatening the life of the President or VP of the US would likely get a person shot and killed in the attempt.
> 
> Had any of the mob breached that last door of protection, the Secret Service would have shot them dead on the spot.


It's still astounding to me that the Vice President ... the second in command of the government ... was running for his life during this attack. This is how serious this attack was.

Yes of course the Secret Service would have shot and killed anyone who got too close, as they should. The Capitol Police were dramatically outnumbered but they too did everything they could to stop the right wing extremists. They did shoot to kill attackers who were threatening the lives of government officials, and killed one of the attackers in the process.

The restraint on the part of the police was incredible. Being physically attacked, they would have been justified in shooting and killing far more of the extremists. I suspect they decided not to just because they were outnumbered by such a large margin, perhaps waiting for reinforcements and the military to arrive.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

The Capital police officer who killed Ashley Babbit recently admitted in an interview that he didn't see her hands and didn't even know if she had a weapon before he fired his gun. Footage shows that he was at least 20 feet away from her and that no innocent people were being threatened. No one was in immediate danger, or in any danger at all based on what he admitted.

That officer shot and killed an unarmed woman half his size from 20+ feet away while in the presence of several other armed officers. There was no immediate threat that required lethal force. There was no threat that couldn't have been resolved with less lethal means.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It's still astounding to me that the Vice President ... the second in command of the government ... was running for his life during this attack. This is how serious this attack was.


Never heard that, do you have a reference?
I did hear
"US Secret Service told CNN in a statement Friday that Pence was "secure at all times."








Washington Post: Pence closer than initially known to the violent mob during US Capitol storming


Vice President Mike Pence came closer than initially known to the mob of pro-Trump rioters who stormed the US Capitol on January 6, according to new reporting from the Washington Post.




www.cnn.com








HappilyRetired said:


> That officer shot and killed an unarmed woman half his size from 20+ feet away while in the presence of several other armed officers. There was no immediate threat that required lethal force. There was no threat that couldn't have been resolved with less lethal means.


That's a pretty clear case of voluntary manslaughter, or even murder.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The video talks and bullshit walks.

Those doors were the last line of defense for members of Congress hiding down the hallway.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Last night Biden questioned if 2022 election will be legitimate. Isn't that promoting insurrection?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

I almost forgot about this:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The mob will get their day in court, a couple more were arrested in Boston today by the FBI, and they can tell it all to the judge.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

These investigations are all about the January 6 insurrection. They aren't investigating all the wrongs from the past going back to the founding of the US.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

There's amazing and mind-blowing stuff coming out in just the last 48 hours. So much here, so I'll organize it under a couple headings.

*Fake electors*

It's alleged that there was an organized scheme to send fake electors to the Electoral College, organized by none other than Rudy "death to America" Giuliani.

They created phony electors (with forged documents) who were supposed to replace the authentic electors. Pence become concerned about the possibility of these fake electors, apparently not going along with the scheme.

The best part of this is that the fake electors, e.g. stooges from the Arizona Republican Party, actually filed forged documents to the National Archive, claiming they were the electors. This happened in not just one state, but in 7 different states, and there is a paper trail.

So the scheme to overturn the election wasn't just about storming the Capitol building. A lot actually preceded this. Trump first intimidated Georgia government officials (who recorded the call), but there was also an organized plot to create fake electors to steal the Electoral College.

The question is, who organized it and who was involved? Giuliani has been named already but others were involved. In any case it was a clear attempt to steal the election and overthrow the USA.

*Trump tried to overturn election*

The January 6 Committee alleges that Trump instructed Pence to reject the election results. The claim is that Trump pressured Pence, telling him to overturn the election. There is already a witness who verifies this: former National Security Advisor (Keith Kellogg), who said that Trump told Pence to overturn the election / block certification.
​"Mike, it's not right. You can do this [stop the certification]. I'm counting on you to do it. If you don't do it, I picked the wrong man four years ago. You're going to wimp out," Mr Trump reportedly said, according to Mr Kellogg's interview transcript.​​The committee is calling Ivanka to testify, because she was present during these conversations. She and others asked Trump to call off the right wing extremists who were attacking the Capitol.


*Sources*

Article from CNN
Article from Arizona PBS
BBC article regarding Ivanka testimony
CBS news on Ivanka etc
Rolling Stone article


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Wait a minute. I thought it was an armed takeover attempt, James? Now that it was proven to be a lie (which you knew all along) you're posting more unproven BS.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The New York Times examined hundreds of videos and evidence and talked to witnesses to put together the time line of how the riot evolved.

There is no doubt that the riot was organized, coordinated, and violent, and there is lots of evidence of weapons being used against police officers.

People died during the riot, including a police officer and several protestors who were trampled to death.

This video is stunning and eye opening. It is difficult to believe the level of violence by the crowd. It was basically a lynch mob.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The latest I read from reliable sources, was that Pence refused to get into a vehicle with Secret Service agents that weren't members of his security team.

If true....who was in the vehicle ? Where were they going to take him ? Was Senator Chuck Grassley involved ?

There is a lot that is going to be revealed to the public in the public hearings. This is going to be far bigger than the public Watergate hearings.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Actual violence instead of false claims and lie:

Another Fatal Shooting in Seattle’s ‘CHOP’ Protest Zone - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

It looks like the Jan 6 investigation is a blatant abuse of power and may be illegal. This isn't about investigating a riot, it's about punishing the Democrats political opponents. They're sending a clear message to everyone: If you dare to protest we'll destroy your life:

Congress's 1/6 Committee Claims Absolute Power as it Investigates Citizens With No Judicial Limits (substack.com)


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> The New York Times examined hundreds of videos and evidence and talked to witnesses to put together the time line of how the riot evolved.
> 
> There is no doubt that the riot was organized, coordinated, and violent, and there is lots of evidence of weapons being used against police officers.
> 
> ...


The NY Times? worse than Fox


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

zinfit said:


> The NY Times? worse than Fox


They're worse than most. I posted that link to show that even the far left media was aware of the CHAZ/CHOP murders.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I wonder what these traitors are up to these days.

Rudy "death to America" Giuliani and Roger Stone are probably coming up with new ways to seize power.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> I wonder what these traitors are up to these days.
> 
> Rudy "death to America" Giuliani and Roger Stone are probably coming up with new ways to seize power.


If you think they're bad, you should check out how badly the new regime is screwing the US.


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## 50yearoldmechanic (Jul 21, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> If you think they're bad, you should check out how badly the new regime is screwing the US.


I think you've kinda hijacked this forum Happily Retired. 

This isn't Facebook. You sound like a whiney little school girl.


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