# US life expectancy falls again



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is astounding. For the second year in a row, life expectancy in the US has fallen. The US now has its lowest life expectancy in 25 years.

Developed countries typically always see increasing lifespans. It's one of the hallmarks of being a successful, wealthy country. Life expectancy declining like this really has to make you question whether the US is still a successful country.

Having lived in the US, one of my observations is that in many ways, the US is like a third world country. There are huge segments of the population that have traits similar to the poor and underclasses in third world countries. For example, there are large numbers of religious fundamentalists and zealots who still push for antiquated values (like repressing women, fighting back against science). The government also repeatedly fails to work in the public best interest, heavily corrupted by the extremely wealthy and corporate interests.

Don't forget, the US also an insanely high violent crime rate and wealth inequality which again is like a third world sh*t hole.

COVID was part of the reason for this drop in life expectancy (because so many young people died) but you can't just blame the virus. Trump and the Republicans were completely ineffective during the early, critical phases of the pandemic. They let huge numbers of Americans die, and now the right wing and especially the religious fundamentalists are still fighting against vaccination.

I also think Canadians should be very wary of what's happening in the US. There are many people here who watch American media (things like Fox News) and absorb the propaganda from American politicians. This is extremely hazardous to our country... I don't want us to turn into America.

Their country is deteriorating before our eyes.









U.S. life expectancy falls for 2nd year in a row


The pandemic drove U.S. life expectancy down again in 2021 even though life-saving vaccines were widely available.




www.npr.org


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Well, at least they don't have to ever worry about a population explosion like China.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

There are too many grossly obese people waddling around. Check photos of a few decades ago and fat people were the exception. Now it is the norm.

All that extra weight carries multiple danger signs. Diabetes heart disease and increased cancer head the list.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Privatized health care, that is not accessible by many Americans is a key factor in longevity.

Former Obama advisor, David Axelrod tweeted that he has to take a prescription medication that cost $700 a month, and his health insurance company told him they would no longer cover the drug. So now he pays the $700. Fortunately, he can afford to pay, but many people in the same situation can't.

Other people replied to the tweet, telling similar stories. One person said the insurance company cut off paying for insulin for her son. She can't afford to pay the cost and doesn't know what to do.

Many people in the US simply don't go to the doctor, because they can't afford to pay the cost.

Universal health care is an important factor in the health and well being of a country.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The wealthy in the US live in guarded enclaves and certain subdivisions with security guards roaming around stopping anyone who looks "suspicious".

Look at Youtube videos on Venice Beach or LA and see the homeless lining the streets. Look at the poverty in places like West VIrginia or Mississippi.

The US is turning into a third world country.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Well, you know what the Right Wing would normally say. Those kind of people don't value life the way us regular people do.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

No surprise given their deaths attributable to covid and opioids, etc. over the past few years. Especially the later because of the younger demographics.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> No surprise given their deaths attributable to covid and opioids, etc. over the past few years. Especially the later because of the younger demographics.


Yeah I think you're right, besides covid, the opioids have got to be a factor.

I really hope the US turns around because a deteriorating US is very bad for Canada.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Yeah I think you're right, besides covid, the opioids have got to be a factor.
> 
> I really hope the US turns around because a deteriorating US is very bad for Canada.


Take a look at the Pew Research stats. Especially in the southern US as it pertains to health, politics, obesity, income, faith education levels etc. The various stats are quite revealing.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Yeah I think you're right, besides covid, the opioids have got to be a factor.
> 
> I really hope the US turns around because a deteriorating US is very bad for Canada.


Since retiring 11 years ago we have only spent 3 weeks in the US during the winter. Absolutely no desire to go to Florida, etc. At one time we were considering buying a vacation property there.

All of our pre covid annual 2-3 month snowbird trips have been to other countries.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Since retiring 11 years ago we have only spent 3 weeks in the US during the winter. Absolutely no desire to go to Florida, etc. At one time we were considering buying a vacation property there.
> 
> All of our pre covid annual 2-3 month snowbird trips have been to other countries.


What are your favourite destination countries?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james4beach said:


> What are your favourite destination countries?


Thailand/SE Asia, Australia, Costa Rica/Panama, Mexico for snow bird trips.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Thailand/SE Asia, Australia, Costa Rica/Panama, Mexico


An American friend of mine (and business partner) ended up in Indonesia at the start of the pandemic. At first he decided to stay a few more months since the flights back to the US were impossible.

Now he loves it. Indonesia is a tropical paradise and there's virtually no crime. After 2 years there, he has trouble seeing the appeal of returning to the US. He's discovered (to his surprise) that his quality of life is better than being in the US.

The two of us split project work between us, and I'm kind of jealous. He makes an American income but his cost of living is 66% lower than mine. He's told me to come over there and get an oceanside villa, and maybe I should.

The only negative thing he encountered there was an infection with Dengue Fever. It was pretty serious in his case and he ended up on an IV with a doctor monitoring him for hemorrhaging. So I can't say it's all good over there, but maybe if he had been more careful about mosquito bites he could have avoided that. Canadians and Americans never think about this but mosquito-transmitted illnesses can be very severe, and bug repellent (and sleeping nets) are a necessity.


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## timetofly (Dec 11, 2014)

ian said:


> Since retiring 11 years ago we have only spent 3 weeks in the US during the winter. Absolutely no desire to go to Florida, etc. At one time we were considering buying a vacation property there.
> 
> All of our pre covid annual 2-3 month snowbird trips have been to other countries.


The fact you have been absent for so long suggests you have no idea what you are talking about. Most of the posters to this thread should be much more critical of your own country of Canada. You all are trying to trash the USA. As Canadians we need and depend on the USa for our standard of living. Stop trashing the USA to compensate for your insecurities.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

Zipper said:


> There are too many grossly obese people waddling around. Check photos of a few decades ago and fat people were the exception. Now it is the norm.
> 
> All that extra weight carries multiple danger signs. Diabetes heart disease and increased cancer head the list.


This nails it. What they have been putting in their mouths since the dietary guidelines vilified fat and embraced carbs in 1980, the consequences have been obvious for years but now modern medicine can't fix it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

timetofly said:


> The fact you have been absent for so long suggests you have no idea what you are talking about. Most of the posters to this thread should be much more critical of your own country of Canada. You all are trying to trash the USA. As Canadians we need and depend on the USa for our standard of living. Stop trashing the USA to compensate for your insecurities.


I am in no way trashing the US. It comes down to something as basic as we prefer to snowbird in less crowded areas. Over the years we have spent lots of winter time in Florida, Carolinas, etc. Countless weekends and summer vacations in Washington, Oregon, and California.

The difference for us since retiring is that we are not restricted to two or three weeks. We have two, three months. It is a big world out there. Our last pre covid snowbird trip was 2 weeks in the Merida, Puerto Morales, Playa areas followed by six weeks slowly making our way up the Pacific coast from Huatulco to PV. Previous to that we had never spent any time just making our own way slowly up the Mexican coast. We have done the same in Costa Rica.

It is not about trashing any county, rather it comes down to personal preferences. In Thailand or Vietnam, for example, we spend days on sparsely populated beaches, spend less than half (often less) on oceanside accommodation and even less on great local Thai food. At one of our favourite spots, Ban Krut, it is not unusual for us to walk 2 or 3 KMs down the beach and only see two or three people. Same for some beaches in Australia where our Australian friends take us. We tend to avoid the foreign tourist centric areas in these countries.

The other issue is flight time and connections if we are only going for a short time. It takes us most the the day to get to Florida (FLL, MIA, PBI,TPA) with a change of plane. Anywhere from 7-11 hours depending on the connection. We can fly direct to Cancun or PV in five hours, no change. That appeals to us if we are only zipping down for a quick week or two in the spring or fall. 

Not everyone has the advantage of being able to pick up a quick flight to Florida from Montreal or Toronto areas.

We are spending June in Portugal. I can assure you that this also has nothing whatsoever to do with trashing the US.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

James, why don't you start a thread about all the Democrats who are outraged that DeSantis put forward a bill to stop child grooming instead of endless Trump bashing?

Trump is long gone, the US has since installed a senile old man with advanced dementia who should be in an elder care home. No one even knows who is running the country. It's not Biden, it's not Harris. Who is in charge James? The US is collapsing before our eyes and you can't stop thinking about Trump.

Get over it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> The other issue is flight time and connections if we are only going for a short time. It takes us most the the day to get to Florida (FLL, MIA, PBI,TPA) with a change of plane. Anywhere from 7-11 hours depending on the connection. We can fly direct to Cancun or PV in five hours, no change. That appeals to us if we are only zipping down for a quick week or two in the spring or fall.


This is a good point about the flight options. Access to flights, and routes, are a major consideration.

When I lived in Toronto, with easy access to YYZ, I went pretty frequently to the Caribbean and there were many direct flights and deals. But as I moved around, the Caribbean trips became less feasible and had lengthy connections.

Where I live now, a trip to California or Hawaii may be easier and the most convenient. If it wasn't for the pandemic that's what I was going to do in December/January.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james4beach said:


> This is a good point about the flight options. Access to flights, and routes, are a major consideration.
> 
> When I lived in Toronto, with easy access to YYZ, I went pretty frequently to the Caribbean and there were many direct flights and deals. But as I moved around, the Caribbean trips became less feasible and had lengthy connections.
> 
> Where I live now, a trip to California or Hawaii may be easier and the most convenient. If it wasn't for the pandemic that's what I was going to do in December/January.


We can fly direct to the UK or to Paris in the time it takes us to get to FLL/MIA


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

More stats are out, and US life expectancy has declined again.

US life expectancy in 2019 was about 80 years
2020: declined to 77 years
2021: declined to 76.1 years

That's a nearly 4 year decline in life expectancy over the last couple of years.



> The states which were more relaxed about COVID restrictions and have lower vaccination rates saw higher excess deaths during the delta and omicron surges than states which had more aggressive vaccination campaigns, masking and other mitigation requirements.


and



> "The COVID-19 pandemic has in effect wiped out the health gains that the U.S. has made in the 20th century," says John Haaga, a member of Maryland's Commission on Aging. "To have this second year of crash basically wiping out the meager gains made during the century is really pretty shocking," he says.


Earlier in this thread, people were speculating about various causes for the drop in life expectancy, but it appears to be mainly due to COVID. That's what two of the reputable sources (NPR and Washington Post) say.

Additionally, this University of Minnesota research center says that COVID deaths contributed 74% to the life expectancy drop.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> More stats are out, and US life expectancy has declined again.
> 
> US life expectancy in 2019 was about 80 years
> 2020: declined to 77 years
> ...


Another small data point that seems to show the slow decline of the US as we know it…


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> More stats are out, and US life expectancy has declined again.


As soon as the article mentioned Trump I knew it was biased. And Trump wasn't in office in 2021 but you can't blame Dementia Joe for deaths during his time in office, can you? Way to go NPR


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

HappilyRetired said:


> As soon as the article mentioned Trump I knew it was biased. And Trump wasn't in office in 2021 but you can't blame Dementia Joe for deaths during his time in office, can you? Way to go NPR


You like taking things out of context don't you? Here's the context where Trump was mentioned:

_Woolf says the greater drop in life expectancy for white Americans could reflect attitudes in some parts of the country to vaccines and pandemic control measures. The U.S. health care system is fragmented he points out — public health is determined by the states, which means there were 50 different pandemic response plans. The states which were more relaxed about COVID restrictions and have lower vaccination rates saw higher excess deaths during the delta and omicron surges than states which had more aggressive vaccination campaigns, masking and other mitigation requirements.

Death rates from COVID-19 in counties that went heavily for Donald Trump saw higher death rates than counties that favored President Biden, __according to an NPR analysis._

Basically, you think that because Biden was in power, all of a sudden all the covid deaths would stop happening to those who don't get vaccinated or don't impose control measures. Meanwhile the counties that favour Trump also were against COVID vaccines and control measures.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Speaking of context, one of the largest groups of unvaccinated people almost overwhelmingly voted Democrat, black Americans for example. NPR left that fact out, who knows what else they omitted or ignored.

NPR is horribly biased, they may as well be CNN or MSNBC


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

HappilyRetired said:


> Speaking of context, one of the largest groups of unvaccinated people almost overwhelmingly voted Democrat, black Americans for example. NPR left that fact out, who knows what else they omitted or ignored.
> 
> NPR is horribly biased, they may as well be CNN or MSNBC


You mean this part?

_Surprisingly, while the 2020 drop in life expectancy hit Blacks and Hispanics hardest, that wasn't the case in 2021, the analysis found. Life expectancy among Hispanics didn't significantly change between 2020 and 2021, and life expectancy of Blacks actually inched up slightly — by a little less than half a year. 
In contrast, the life expectancy of whites fell by about a third of a year, mostly among white men._


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

bgc_fan said:


> You mean this part?
> 
> _Surprisingly, while the 2020 drop in life expectancy hit Blacks and Hispanics hardest, that wasn't the case in 2021, the analysis found. Life expectancy among Hispanics didn't significantly change between 2020 and 2021, and life expectancy of Blacks actually inched up slightly — by a little less than half a year.
> In contrast, the life expectancy of whites fell by about a third of a year, mostly among white men._


So, one of the lowest vax groups has a lower death rate?


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

HappilyRetired said:


> So, one of the lowest vax groups has a lower death rate?


No, re-read the article again. It doesn't talk about overall death rate. It discussed the CHANGE in life expectancy. They never mentioned absolute life expectancies. So overall, Blacks could still have a lower life expectancy than white men, but that's not what is stated in the article. All it states is that from 2020 to 2021 the life expectancy for Blacks increased slightly.

Edit: For further reference: Life expectancy for Black Americans continues to lag that of whites, study finds


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

bgc_fan said:


> No, re-read the article again. It doesn't talk about overall death rate. It discussed the CHANGE in life expectancy. They never mentioned absolute life expectancies. So overall, Blacks could still have a lower life expectancy than white men, but that's not what is stated in the article. All it states is that from 2020 to 2021 the life expectancy for Blacks increased slightly.


In 2021 the life expectancy for white men decreased and the life expectancy for a lower percentage of unvaxed (black people) increased. Since the article suggests that this was about vax rate and Covid still existed in 2021, then we have to assume that unvaxed people had a lower death rate. Which is exactly what I said.

I suppose NPR could have looked at other factors, but to them it was all about Trump and they ended up showing that unvaxed people had a lower death rate even though that wasn't their intent. 😁


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

HappilyRetired said:


> In 2021 the life expectancy for white men decreased and the life expectancy for a lower percentage of unvaxed (black people) increased. Since the article suggests that this was about vax rate and Covid still existed in 2021, then we have to assume that unvaxed people had a lower death rate. Which is exactly what I said.
> 
> I suppose NPR could have looked at other factors, but to them it was all about Trump and they ended up showing that unvaxed people had a lower death rate even though that wasn't their intent. 😁


You really don't understand. I give up. If a population has a life expectency of 67 years and increases slightly, they're still going to have a lower life expectancy than a population with a life expectency of 75 that goes down a bit. But overall they still have a lower life expectency. 

And you need to stop this persecution complex. Would you be happier if they didn't say Trump they said that states that voted Republican in the last election had a lower vaccination rate and a slight decrease in life expectency?








US Coronavirus vaccine tracker


Each state has a different plan — and different challenges — in distributing vaccines. Learn more about who is getting vaccinated by parsing the data by age, sex and race.




usafacts.org












2020 presidential election results


See maps and real-time presidential election results for the 2020 US election.




www.cnn.com


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

James, didn't you spend a bunch of time in the US? I'm astonished at how different our points of view are.

I have a lot of American friends and family, as well as a huge number of American acquaintances. To the last one, they continue to proclaim the supremacy of the American healthcare system. Some of them continue to share 5th hand anecdotes of Canadians who are terrified of communist healthcare and travel to the US for treatment. They absolutely believe that nonsense.

I know a couple of Canadians who went to the US for an expedited MRI but I only know of one person who has travelled to the US for healthcare. A close friend went to Houston two years ago where a doctor from MD Anderson gave her a hopeful prognosis, after oncologists here told her she was terminal. She passed a few months later. Oddly, the family doesn't talk about the financial impact and they seem to be doing OK after the treatment.

Two of my American friends have died of what seems like potential malpractice in the last year. One of my friends had the wrong knee replaced at a top hospital in Atlanta. Both of his knees were problematic so it wasn't the end of the world but they replaced the better one. He ended up having an embolism and almost died, but for his pro-Trump, Republican, obnoxious personality and demanding to be re-admitted when he was feeling terrible and turning blue. They saved him, replaced the other knee two years later, had another embolism, was refused admission to hospital the second time, and died on his bathroom floor the day following his refused demand for treatment.

From what I can tell, American healthcare is comically bad. I have a huge cache of nightmare anecdotes including my mother. I won't share the medical detail but she was in Windsor, went to Detroit for an afternoon visit with friends, passed out, and woke up in the hospital where they kept her for overnight observation. Her insurance covered it and then she got a bill in the mail for $75K. They tried to make it stick, saying it was outside of her insurance coverage. Oddly, her insurance company stepped in and had the extra bill dismissed in court.

BTW, she was subsequently diagnosed and successfully treated by Canadian healthcare at what I am sure was a fraction of the price the Detroit hospital wanted to charge for observation.

The Americans I know are scared of their healthcare system. They avoid healthcare like the plague. As a group, Americans are unwell. Jokes about overweight Americans are hyperbolic but also based on a kernel of truth. They have an epidemic of obesity with the highest sugar consumption on the planet. We are moving in their direction but fortunately behind them.

Meanwhile, we abuse our healthcare system terribly. We literally go to our doctor when we get a cold. Until recently, doctors would re-enforce that behaviour by writing prescriptions for antibiotics... for a viral infection.

The point being, to blame this on COVID is a highly myopic view, IMO. COVID is but one of 1000 cuts to a rotten system. What's more, American lifespan will continue to decline and many will continue to be astonished by this. It's not a difficult riddle to solve.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> James, didn't you spend a bunch of time in the US? I'm astonished at how different our points of view are.


What does this have to do with point of view?

Life expectancy in the US has plummeted in recent years. Doesn't really have anything to do with my feelings.

A significant drop in life expectancy, in the richest and most powerful country in the world, is certainly noteworthy.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> What does this have to do with point of view?


How about... everything?

How many of your American friends and family who are over 40 go for annual physicals?

A friend of mine in AZ had insurance but still treated his own broken forearm arm with two pieces of conduit and a tensor bandage. Oddly, it turned out OK. lol!

Most of the Americans I know are literally scared of their healthcare system.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> A significant drop in life expectancy, in the richest and most powerful country in the world, is certainly noteworthy.


Not surprising given the current situation. Both Covid and increasing obesity rates will cause a drop in life expectancy. Also, a better measure of how a country is doing overall would be the "healthy life expectancy" number.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Not surprising given the current situation. Both Covid and increasing obesity rates will cause a drop in life expectancy. Also, a better measure of how a country is doing overall would be the "healthy life expectancy" number.


Plus all the fentanyl OD numbers, increased suicides, and all the new "unexplained deaths" category that insurance companies say are up 20% - 40% that are not Covid related. But the NPR article lays all the blame on Covid.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

HappilyRetired said:


> Plus all the fentanyl OD numbers, increased suicides, and all the new "unexplained deaths" category that insurance companies say are up 20% - 40% that are not Covid related. But the NPR article lays all the blame on Covid.


Except the analysis, as I showed with that link to the university research group, says the decline is almost entirely attributable to COVID

Yeah I get it. When you don't trust what experts and researchers say, you can come up with any random thing you'd like.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Except the analysis, as I showed with that link to the university research group, says the decline is almost entirely attributable to COVID
> 
> Yeah I get it. When you don't trust what experts and researchers say, you can come up with any random thing you'd like.


The experts lied to us James. Repeatedly for 2 years. Fauci repeatedly lied under oath and is still gainfully employed. Pfizer used fake data in their studies.

We already know that an undetermined amount of Covid deaths were from something other than Covid. Gunshot, car accident, heart attack. But they were Covid positive when they died so it's a Covid death. Everyone who died from the shot within 14 days of getting it was also a Covid death.

Until those numbers are fully audited I don't believe them. Unlike some people, I can only be lied to so many times until I stop believing them.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> Yeah I get it. When you don't trust what experts and researchers say, you can come up with any random thing you'd like.


Ad hominem attacks do not flatter the source.


Data needs to be filtered and curated. When Philip Morris releases a study on the safety of smoking, that needs to be considered. When an insurance company releases a study on the safety of smoking, that also has to be considered.

Philip Morris is motivated to under report smoking related danger. That does not mean the Philip Morris study is incorrect or worthless. It might be both of these things but this needs to be proven.

The health insurance company is going to tend to over-report the danger of smoking. If they perceive any danger at all, they are going to be motivated to over-report to reduce their liability. This does not prove their report is incorrect, either.

You are an intelligent person so maybe data analysis and the scientific method are too difficult for the average person? That seems to be one of the tenants of our disagreement?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> Ad hominem attacks do not flatter the source.
> 
> 
> Data needs to be filtered and curated. When Philip Morris releases a study on the safety of smoking, that needs to be considered. When an insurance company releases a study on the safety of smoking, that also has to be considered.
> ...


I said this:

"We already know that an undetermined amount of Covid deaths were from something other than Covid. Gunshot, car accident, heart attack. But they were Covid positive when they died so it's a Covid death. Everyone who died from the shot within 14 days of getting it was also a Covid death."

Until we know the real numbers I remain skeptical. Now you bring up smoking which has nothing to do with Covid but that's because you refuse to address the lies and fraudulent data.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

james4beach said:


> This is astounding. For the second year in a row, life expectancy in the US has fallen. The US now has its lowest life expectancy in 25 years.
> 
> Developed countries typically always see increasing lifespans. It's one of the hallmarks of being a successful, wealthy country. Life expectancy declining like this really has to make you question whether the US is still a successful country.
> 
> ...


Of course, we have extremes as you have summarized but not on a scale that's the same as the U.S. Remember religion also unashamedly rules parts of their electorate base... it's not the same extreme that dominates Canadian election campaigns and influences decision-making ie reversal of Roe vs. Wade.

The truck convoy protests was a tremendous wakeup in Canada that we should never taken for granted our freedoms and think everyone else thinks the same way as others.

And let's keep church and state separate.

What shocked my partner and another guy when they cycled across the U.S. to approx. Chicago from Vancouver, waaaay more obese (not plump) people, in clearly an unhealthy way that impacted their mobility and movement that they could see.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

No surprise given the death rates attributable to covid and drug overdoses.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

ian said:


> No surprise given the death rates attributable to covid and drug overdoses.


And the cheap fast food.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Money172375 said:


> And the cheap fast food.


And some people's almost total lack of physical activity.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jlunfirst said:


> Of course, we have extremes as you have summarized but not on a scale that's the same as the U.S. Remember religion also unashamedly rules parts of their electorate base... it's not the same extreme that dominates Canadian election campaigns and influences decision-making ie reversal of Roe vs. Wade.
> 
> The truck convoy protests was a tremendous wakeup in Canada that we should never taken for granted our freedoms and think everyone else thinks the same way as others


It's true that we don't the same extreme elements in our population.

But they do exist. Religious fundamentalists, especially evangelical Christians, have indeed led organized opposition to abortions in Canada. They are a powerful enough force that they influence the values of the Conservative party.

As for the truck convoys, there was a significant religious component as well. There was funding of both money and supplies that was being organized through rural churches, and American churches as well.

Religious fundamentalism, and even religious extremism, was a part of the convoy story that we should not ignore. There's quite a bit of it in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and other pockets in rural Canada.

Going back a bit further, ex PM Stephen Harper brought evangelical values right into the core of government. Some of his foreign policy (regarding middle eastern wars) was impacted by his evangelical doctrines. He also explicitly wanted to leverage religious Christians as a force to elect and keep him in power, similar to the tactics used by American Republicans to exploit religious conservatives.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

I understand the Canadian tradition of making fun of Americans, but isn't the life expectancy generally decreasing everywhere?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> It's true that we don't the same extreme elements in our population.
> 
> But they do exist. Religious fundamentalists, especially evangelical Christians, have indeed led organized opposition to abortions in Canada. They are a powerful enough force that they influence the values of the Conservative party.
> 
> ...


You're right James, we don't have the same extremists. Our extremists protest. Your extremists burned down churches. Your extremists enable communist values to be embraced by the Trudeau government.

I'll take my extremists over yours. Yours will seize my bank account and throw me in jail. Mine will let you live your life as you see fit.

It's not a very hard choice, unless you're a fool.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

doctrine said:


> I understand the Canadian tradition of making fun of Americans, but isn't the life expectancy generally decreasing everywhere?


Life Expectancy by Country and in the World (2022) - Worldometer (worldometers.info)
Canada Life Expectancy 1950-2022 | MacroTrends

This link says Canada is still rising but the gap is narrowing. I haven't checked but believe that is the case for most of the developed world.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

doctrine said:


> I understand the Canadian tradition of making fun of Americans, but isn't the life expectancy generally decreasing everywhere?


As for ourselves in Canada without comparing against the rest of the world, I'm sure many of us already know personally, Canadians who are over 90 yrs. old. I don't ever recall 50 years ago, ever hearing about anyone I knew living that long.

I have a good friend here in Alberta: her grandfather lived until 107 yrs. old (or was it 104?). Just eye-popping. He was still golfing here in his early 80's. He was the first Chinese-Canadian engineering graduate from McGill University.

She had a grandmother, which I'm not certain it's the wife, or from other side the family, she lived over 102 yrs. old. She died about 4 yrs. ago here in Alberta.

My mother will be 89 next yr. I consider that very long for my family. Her health is not super great. If my mother clears the 89 marathon tape, she might be living the longest on her side of the family in her generation. My maternal and paternal grandparents lived into their 60's- early 70's in China. I have a great aunt in Toronto who is 93 yrs. She has 7 children. It was her husband that sponsored my father to Canada.

Hard to know my generation in my extended family, will live such length. Thought of living beyond 90 yrs. seems very daunting. However myself and siblings don't have any cardio nor respiratory problems at this time in our early 50's to early 60's. We are all mobile.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

When I do estimates for finances, I put down life expectacy to be at least 90 yrs. Probably should put it at 95 to be safe. Though it seems very strange.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

No surprise. Covid and drug related deaths. US already had a comparatively high infant mortality rate.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The human body has not evolved for a longer life span than we have.

I heard an interesting comment from an age researcher that many think of "half their life" as being 50 years old, when in reality few people reach 100 years of age.

Most people older than 40 years or so, have already lived more than half their life span.

It makes me think that delaying CPP and OAS benefits until age 70 is probably not a wise idea.

Are there any studies of people who delayed their benefits and how many years they collected them ?

It seems to me to be a carrot and a stick concept. The carrot is more money dangled in front of people. The stick is they may never collect more or even any of it.

I would like to know the hard numbers. How many delayed benefits and passed away before collecting them ? How long did people collect delayed benefits.

What % of people collected more money by delaying benefits than they would have collecting them at 60 for CPP or 65 for CPP and OAS ?

The government should be able to provide those general statistics.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is a private Facebook page set up for my past workplace that had 600 people working there.

I visit the page only rarely because it is a continual list of people I worked with who have passed away.

They aren't 100 years old, or even in their 90s or 80s. Most are in their 60s and 70s.

Very few of the group are in LTC homes yet, but every month more names are added.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

sags said:


> There is a private Facebook page set up for my past workplace that had 600 people working there.
> 
> I visit the page only rarely because it is a continual list of people I worked with who have passed away.
> 
> ...


All the more reason why it's helpful to have a few good friends even 10-30 yrs. younger than self. I'm kinda deficient except for 2 younger local friends, in this way except for family members. Cultivating friendships that are genuine and know they will not take advantage, takes time and needs to happen organically.

My good friends my age range 61-64 yrs., known each other for last 30+ yrs., have only these problems so far: 1 hip pain problem, minor arthritis in a hand or ankle or allergy. That's all. It's sheer coincidence, these friends their own, over the decades, have found a certain sport/exercise, even if it's just walking for 1 km./day, to keep up in some way. Not always perfect, but it's trying and better than no physical activity at all. These people don't know each other and came into my life for different reasons.

An 84 yr. friend currently lives in retirement home for independent folks. She stopped cycling around 81 or something like that. She did group bike trips in Europe into her 70's. And had been a long-time cycling commuter for probably 40 yrs. of her life. A grandmother and ex-nurse.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jlunfirst said:


> All the more reason why it's helpful to have a few good friends even 10-30 yrs. younger than self. I'm kinda deficient except for 2 younger local friends, in this way except for family members. Cultivating friendships that are genuine and know they will not take advantage, takes time and needs to happen organically.


IMO, the more important thing than (some) younger friends is younger service providers. My dentist, lawyer and family doctor are all at least 20-25 years younger than me. I would hope they are still working with me when I am 90* (if I make it that far), albeit not as important with my dentist since they tend to work as a team of dentists to justify their prohibitive office costs.

Actuarially speaking, folks circa 65-75 today have a best before date of 85 or so per StatsCan Life expectancy at various ages, by population group and sex, Canada This is 2015 data so the numbers have likely come down due to deaths from covid, but the survivors today likely are the more robust residual population.

Added: Some UN projections Canada Life Expectancy 1950-2022 again without the effects of covid.

* I don't expect to live past 90 and don't really want too given the typical lifestyle that exists at that point.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

AltaRed said:


> IMO, the more important thing than (some) younger friends is younger service providers. My dentist, lawyer and family doctor are all at least 20-25 years younger than me. I would hope they are still working with me when I am 90 (if I make it that far), albeit not as important with my dentist since they tend to work as a team of dentists to justify their prohibitive office costs.
> 
> Actuarially speaking, folks circa 65-75 today have a best before date of 85 or so per StatsCan Life expectancy at various ages, by population group and sex, Canada This is 2015 data so the numbers have likely come down due to deaths from covid, but the survivors today likely are the more robust residual population.
> 
> Added: Some UN projections Canada Life Expectancy 1950-2022 again without the effects of covid.


This is true. But professionals are not friends who support us in a very different but equally good way for different reasons.

I was referred to a much younger doctor who probably finished interning/graduated 2 yrs. before I was assigned to her. I had a great family doctor for 8 yrs. who had a full caseload but then relocated to Vancouver to practice. I did worry because Calgary population continues to grow.

So current doctor (early 30's), is fine and I like her. She is responsive to my questions, concerns. I realize some people want experienced doc. etc. Whatever that means. My comfort level /our family situation maybe different: we started to consult our doc-sister for a 2nd physician opinion, within 1 yr. after she finished her medical residency. My pharmacist other sister provides a fit with at times even more knowledge on drug therapy. She works in major teaching hospital where she's been involved in clinical drug trial testing, patient education,etc.

University educated pharmacists can know alot about drugs. The faculty pharmacies across CAnada (we don't have that many for registered/licensed pharmacists), now require a 5 yr. university education in pharmacy. It is highly competitive re marks to be accepted into a faculty of pharmacy. It's been like this for past decades.

Dentist is approx. 15-20 yrs. younger than I. He is very good. I like him/his staff but he is not cheap..given the fancier location in downtown and incredible equipment that I see. He likes chatting up about cycling with me.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jlunfirst said:


> This is true. But professionals are not friends who support us in a very different but equally good way for different reasons.


That can be true but we are both pretty independent regarding life issues and have the means to get done what needs to get done. We don't rely on friends to support us emotionally or physically in much of anything the way some want (or need). We also know we will have the support of one or more of our aggregated 5 children (3 are hers, 2 are mine) if the need arises. Four are Gen-Xers and one is a leading edge millennial..


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

AltaRed said:


> That can be true but we are both pretty independent regarding life issues and have the means to get done what needs to get done. We don't rely on friends to support us emotionally or physically in much of anything the way some want (or need). We also know we will have the support of one or more of our aggregated 5 children (3 are hers, 2 are mine) if the need arises. Four are Gen-Xers and one is a leading edge millennial..


Support for people who have no children, is different. Although I can't imagine a parent where local adult child doesn't/rarely visits during the yr...would be hurtful.

So one has to think of friends and 1-2 neighbours in an emergency which latter I did, though not my health. More of water flood problem. Siblings & 7 nieces and nephews (of which 5 are independent adults, with eldest @37) are elsewhere in Canada. So I have enough heirs of whatever I have left one day.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

The Zippers live in a circle or court in London. We have been here 40 years. We watched our house being built way back then.
We are the oldest but there are others who have been here 20 or 30+ years.
My next door neighbour has severe pollen allergies so I have cut his lawn for decades every summer.
He has a snowblower and London is famous for big storms so he does my driveway every winter.
Another neighbour has 2 brother Bichons to ours and we look after them whenever they head south.
We watched the boys on the other side of us from birth and 2 are on UWO Mustangs football team. (They choked in the final this year but that's another story  )
But they are more than willing to help out whenever we need an extra hand.
So in short we are all tight here in our little corner of the world. You do need support especially in your later years. We gave it when we were younger and now we are receiving it.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

This is a depressing topic even though it's very realistic and contrary to the mathematical experts (aka actuaries) who're touting (along with some millennials here on CMF "worrying") about the effects of "longevity" in Canada (as if we don't follow the USA) that'll impact the sustainability of OAS, CPP and the likes for the younger gens. EOM.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Longevity was part of the focus of "Taking Stock on BNN" today. Portions of the episodes are often posted on their website in a couple days but nothing is up yet. A couple of items that were discussed here on CMF were part of the show. when to take CPP, healthcare as our population ages, The sustainability of CPP, the unsustainability of OAS. Fred Vetesse was interviewed as well. One item that he shared that gave me pause was that there were 6 workers for every retiree when the boomers entered the workforce. Currently there are 4. He said we will soon be at 2.5. I can't remember the date when we would hit that number. One thing that is likely to happen is that taxes will be higher and or services will be lower in the future for Canadians. If I am able to find any of the episode I will post it here.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe taxation will have to shift from taxes on workers to taxes on production.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Maybe taxation will have to shift from taxes on workers to taxes on production.


I think taxes on low income workers are still too high. For example a worker making 40,000 (their only source of income) still has a 11% average tax rate, with taxes of $4500. The also pay CPP and EI premiums, which are not really a tax, but at the end of the day their take-home pay is only $32,800.

That person is barely able to survive in Canada. If they're renting, this person is living in poverty because rent alone will eat up 70% to 75% of their after-tax income.

There's still stuff in the tax system with maximum amounts (cut-offs for eligible credits) at levels like $20,000 income. What a laugh! Someone who makes $20,000 is probably living in a tent or local shelter. The *average rent* in Canada is $2000/mo = $24,000 a year. Add in bare minimum food at $4,000 a year and that means you can't survive in Canada for less than $28,000. That translates to a gross income of $33,000.

To clarify: that means that a renter needs at least $33,000 gross income to just survive and not starve in Canada.

The old numbers found in the tax system, like income tests around a 20K threshold, are very outdated... mainly thanks to the real estate bubble and massive rent increases.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

londoncalling said:


> Longevity was part of the focus of "Taking Stock on BNN" today. Portions of the episodes are often posted on their website in a couple days but nothing is up yet. A couple of items that were discussed here on CMF were part of the show. when to take CPP, healthcare as our population ages, The sustainability of CPP, the unsustainability of OAS. Fred Vetesse was interviewed as well. One item that he shared that gave me pause was that there were 6 workers for every retiree when the boomers entered the workforce. Currently there are 4. He said we will soon be at 2.5. I can't remember the date when we would hit that number. One thing that is likely to happen is that taxes will be higher and or services will be lower in the future for Canadians. If I am able to find any of the episode I will post it here.


 ... please do, thanks. I like to see how over-rated that expertise is.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Maybe taxation will have to shift from taxes on workers to taxes on production.


 ... in which case corporations would expect an even lower tax rate.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think taxes on low income workers are still too high. For example a worker making 40,000 (their only source of income) still has a 11% average tax rate, with taxes of $4500. The also pay CPP and EI premiums, which are not really a tax, but at the end of the day their take-home pay is only $32,800.
> 
> That person is barely able to survive in Canada. If they're renting, this person is living in poverty because rent alone will eat up 70% to 75% of their after-tax income.
> 
> ...


 ... that's why you have the rich getting richer and the poor (including the fake ones) well ... relying on the food banks.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

james4beach said:


> I think taxes on low income workers are still too high. For example a worker making 40,000 (their only source of income) still has a 11% average tax rate, with taxes of $4500. The also pay CPP and EI premiums, which are not really a tax, but at the end of the day their take-home pay is only $32,800.
> 
> That person is barely able to survive in Canada. If they're renting, this person is living in poverty because rent alone will eat up 70% to 75% of their after-tax income.
> 
> ...


If you're making low wages then you don't rent at the average, you rent at lower than average. Most cities and towns have one bedroom apartments for $800 - $1200, far under $2000.

My wife and a I are causally looking at rentals for when we sell our house. 2 - 3 bedrooms, nice places, underground parking, 850 - 1000 sq ft. Rent $1500 - $1800. There are plenty of available smaller one bedrooms for single people earning low wages for much less.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

londoncalling said:


> Longevity was part of the focus of "Taking Stock on BNN" today. Portions of the episodes are often posted on their website in a couple days but nothing is up yet. A couple of items that were discussed here on CMF were part of the show. when to take CPP, healthcare as our population ages, The sustainability of CPP, the unsustainability of OAS. Fred Vetesse was interviewed as well. One item that he shared that gave me pause was that there were 6 workers for every retiree when the boomers entered the workforce. Currently there are 4. He said we will soon be at 2.5. I can't remember the date when we would hit that number. One thing that is likely to happen is that taxes will be higher and or services will be lower in the future for Canadians. If I am able to find any of the episode I will post it here.


Some interesting stats provided in this feature.

Taking Stock - Aging in Canada - Bing video


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