# Cheeseburger covid party



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This ex-Investors Group financial planner is accused of throwing huge parties in his condo, with as many as 100 people each time. An illegal nightclub, complete with a stripper pole, and 100 cheeseburgers for guests. No masks, but not that it would matter anyway. This many people crammed into an apartment is guaranteed COVID spread.

I'm angry because this guy lives pretty close to me and is obviously spreading the disease in my neighbourhood. To think that while everyone else is being careful and responsible, we have someone like this spreading the infections and making the situation worse. He's probably lucky that Canadian society is very civil and well behaved. In some countries, he'd get his a** kicked by the rest of us.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/penthouse-party-covid-nightclub-search-warrant-1.5900343



When the police showed up, the man appeared to read a script prepared by a lawyer, telling the police to contact his lawyer. I guess he didn't expect them to come back with a search warrant.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow, this guy is a real piece of work. He's also been charged with financial violations. Fined by IIROC, with allegations of falsifying signatures and transferring accounts without authorization.

*And to show the direct hostility people like him have towards public health*, the flyer for the parties advertised an "anti-Bonnie" event. Referring to Dr Bonnie Henry, the provincial health officer.









COVID-19: Vancouver man fined $2,500 for makeshift nightclub out of condo


VPD has received four complaints this month about social gatherings inside the apartment




vancouversun.com


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

The charges are $25k and/or 6 months in jail. What a joke. He bought his condo for close to $3M and probably made more money than the fine while running his night club. Jail for non-violent crimes punishes society more than the criminal (our taxes pay for people in prison), so that's again a stupid punishment. They should financially ruin him and remove all his citizen rights like access to health care. Send him to some remote village in northern Yukon and make him do perpetual community work. Or to a desert island outside of society. Sorry this article made me mad.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thal81 said:


> They should financially ruin him


Agreed. This guy made a ton of money from each party and he's probably been holding these parties for weeks, if not months. The fines and penalties have to be big enough to ruin him financially. But I think jail time would be good too. You have to make an example of people like this.

But also notice that he has a history of financial crimes. Canada is REALLY bad at nailing people for financial frauds and crimes, and this guy has been at it for a while.

This shows why it's important to aggressively prosecute financial criminals. It's a pattern of behaviour ... these are bad people. Someone like him who's been bouncing around between companies, committing little frauds and ripping off old ladies, is a danger to society because there is something fundamentally wrong with his moral compass. He will do more harm to the public.

And every time he gets off easy, like IIROC's cute little fine, he just learns it's OK. He can afford to pay the fines.

The justice system let this guy get away with all of his little scams and frauds. Now he's causing direct physical harm to the public. If he gets off easy from this, or just pays a few thousand bucks in fines, I'm certain he will be committing more crimes.



Thal81 said:


> Sorry this article made me mad.


Made me mad too. Has probably made thousands of his neighbours mad around here. We know where he lives. I'm a level headed guy of course, but I can't speak for everyone else in town.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ First thing first in this scenario, does the Condominiums Act in BC (if there is one?) allow owners to hold "night-clubs" in their units (even it's a penthouse!)? 

Secondly, does the Liquor Board in BC (if there is one?) allow private sales of alcohol in one's residence? If not, then why isn't he "charged" for those crimes too ... let alone all the other multiple ones with Covid19? There're thirdly, fourthly ... is this low-life's laundry list ever long.

Also, there's the question of why is his lawyer (same surnamed brother) representing him ... isn't that at non-arms length? Is the Law Society in BC (if there is one?) not concerned with that perception?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ First thing first in this scenario, does the Condominiums Act in BC (if there is one?) allow owners to hold "night-clubs" in their units (even it's a penthouse!)?
> 
> Secondly, does the Liquor Board in BC (if there is one?) allow private sales of alcohol in one's residence? If not, then why isn't he "charged" for those crimes too ... let alone all the other multiple ones with Covid19? There're thirdly, fourthly ... is this low-life's laundry list ever long.
> 
> Also, there's the question of why is his lawyer (same surnamed brother) representing him ... isn't that at non-arms length? Is the Law Society in BC (if there is one?) not concerned with that perception?


What's wrong with giving legal advice to family?
It's IMO a bad idea, but he got good advice.

Oh, and never talk to police, he got away with this for weeks by simply not opening his door.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> What's wrong with giving legal advice to family?
> It's IMO a bad idea, but he got good advice.


 ... nothing wrong except the "good" advice is hardly considered "good" IMO. 



> Oh, and never talk to police, he got away with this for weeks by simply not opening his door.


 ... a low-life criminal 101 tactics .. let's see how long he will "get away with this" ... like forever?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I followed a saga called Synergy Group 2000 for years, where the promoters claimed people could invest in them and collect 10X more back in tax refunds.

It was all a scam of course, but it continued for years before regulators and police took action. Tens of millions of dollars were involved.

On the regulation side........he got a fine. Last I read he never bothered to pay it.

On the legal side......he dragged the court case out so long the judge ruled it was against his right to a speedy trail and threw the case out.

Bottom line........he kept all the millions he stole, kept all the property he owned.........house, cottage, vehicles, and he didn't pay back the fine or go to jail.

Life is good in the white collar crime business.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ First thing first in this scenario, does the Condominiums Act in BC (if there is one?) allow owners to hold "night-clubs" in their units (even it's a penthouse!)?
> 
> Secondly, does the Liquor Board in BC (if there is one?) allow private sales of alcohol in one's residence? If not, then why isn't he "charged" for those crimes too ... let alone all the other multiple ones with Covid19? There're thirdly, fourthly ... is this low-life's laundry list ever long.
> 
> Also, there's the question of why is his lawyer (same surnamed brother) representing him ... isn't that at non-arms length? Is the Law Society in BC (if there is one?) not concerned with that perception?


1. I am going to guess there is no 'night club' clause in an condo act. What I have seen from penthouse suites, is the owners tend to have an 'entitlement' attitude and are often able to get away with more. Often the building operators will turn the other way. I think read on in of the link they provided the door security even. 

2. Normally, it's pretty easy to get a license (pre-covid) I read in another article, it sounds like this idiot had a bar that was closed down, so may have had a license or an in there.

3. You are totally allowed to have family represent you. It not's medicine or anything life threatening. This is the only thing I don't see a problem with.

Idiots like this thing they are above the law. I think everything should be thrown at him from noise by laws to break health orders, to running an underground bar


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm thinking the initial fines are the tip of the iceberg, though the additional problems wouldn't be punitive enough either.
He's probably facing an investigation and fines from city licensing, the provincial liquor board, and an audit from CRA. The audit might be the most concerning for him if he's done a lot of shady stuff. 
Unfortunately, I think the most the condo strata can do is just give a warning or at most fine him.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

No different from those churches that are having full services, no masking, no social distancing AND ignoring Provincial Health Authority orders to remain closed.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

This guy must have some influential friends.

It sounds like he was running a full-on speakeasy. Selling liquor without a license. 

In ordinary circumstances, if liquor was being sold, it would all have been seized and the violator(s) charged under s. 8(2) of the Liquor Control & Licensing Act and, under s. 57(3)(c), subject to a fine of $50,000 and to 6 months in Her Majesty's Guesthouse. He got kid glove treatment. Clearly the cops avoided intervening for as long as possible and they made sure no license inspectors came along.



Liquor Control and Licensing Act



Of course, maybe, for me, a case of sour grapes. I am miffed I did not get an invite and no free cheeseburger. Or were those being flogged at a handsome markup? I guess I should still live in the West End.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

Just a bit of vigilante justice suggested here. 

Stack a few cases of bottle water in front of his ensuite toilet

Take his shoes off, sit him on the throne, and crazy glue his feet to the floor,.

Take his phone and leave it just out of reach.

Then be a caring soul and drop by every two weeks to bring him a few more cases of water. 

We can worry about getting the glue released when we have 99% of the population immunized


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Mukhang pera said:


> He got kid glove treatment. Cleary the cops avoided intervening for as long as possible and they made sure no license inspectors came along.


Interesting. I wonder why he's getting such leniency.

Maybe the police are concerned about causing a backlash from the anti-mask / anti-healthcare crowd?

@Mukhang pera do you think a civil suit can be brought against this guy? For example how about a group of legitimate bar operators. Could they sue him for endangering the public? Or can lawsuits about 'good of the public' only be brought by the government?

Just makes me wonder. If the government is unable or unwilling to prosecute this guy, can people pursue him in civil court, for larger amounts.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Ponderling said:


> Just a bit of vigilante justice suggested here.
> 
> Stack a few cases of bottle water in front of his ensuite toilet
> 
> ...


LOL. I do appreciate this creative response. The only thing I am concerned about it the ability to get his feet glued to the ground as that requires stillness for the glue to set. I am trying to imagine how people could do that. I am all about implementation, I see the other parts working well. You are kind though, I was thinking if you could glue his @$$ directly to the throne (not the seat but the porcelain) that might even be better. Jerks like this make my blood boil. 



Mukhang pera said:


> This guy must have some influential friends.
> 
> It sounds like he was running a full-on speakeasy. Selling liquor without a license.
> 
> ...


I thought the burgers were for sale? Maybe he is selling the burger and giving the drinks for free to get around the licensing. I did find it interesting that the cops did not visit on at least one call because they were busy. I wonder why this guy is so special. He had enough money to pay off the security door man.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> @Mukhang pera do you think a civil suit can be brought against this guy? For example how about a group of legitimate bar operators. Could they sue him for endangering the public? Or can lawsuits about 'good of the public' only be brought by the government?
> 
> Just makes me wonder. If the government is unable or unwilling to prosecute this guy, can people pursue him in civil court, for larger amounts.


As a matter of first impression, I do not see much prospect for a private civil action against this guy. Our law does not really confer on individuals the right to sue for a "public wrong". For an individual, or group, to sue, they must have a recognized "cause of action". I cannot really come up with one known to the law that would fit. If one exists, I would expect it to be a matter of "tort" law...a "civil wrong". Those things tend to be personal such as in the case of a plaintiff who has been injured through the negligence of another, or through an assault or battery. Sure, there is also the tort of "negligent or intentional infliction of mental suffering", as well as "nuisance", but they would have to be stretched to fit.

Also, to found a lawsuit, one would have to be seeking a remedy. If the plaintiffs ask for a monetary award, they are asking for "damages". They would have to prove some loss or injury the law recognizes as compensable by way of "non-pecuniary damages". I don't see much hope. I don't think our courts will encourage what might be seen as "busybody" lawsuits. 

Taking the example of "legitimate bar operators" you mention, I can't see a court awarding them money for the defendant having endangered the public. And governments do not generally (nor can they) sue for damages on behalf of the public. Nor should they need to. Much easier to invoke the penalty provisions under the existing legislative scheme. Here, there seems so far to be a reluctance to do that.

Even without reading the bylaws of the strata corporation that runs the building where all this took place, the strata council can certainly take steps to enjoin the type of conduct seen here and can impose monetary penalties. It can ultimately force a sale of the strata lot in cases of recidivists, or those who do not pay their fines. It seems the sub rosa operation here was going on for some time and was well known within and without the building. Surprising no internal action was taken.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Mukhang pera said:


> Even without reading the bylaws of the strata corporation that runs the building where all this took place, the strata council can certainly take steps to enjoin the type of conduct seen here and can impose monetary penalties


This building is one of my neighbours. If the strata fails to enforce their own rules, can I sue the strata perhaps for endangering my health and wellbeing by allowing illegal and dangerous activity on their premises?

Imagine that a condo building had a guy who routinely goes to the rooftop, and sprays a firehose of fecal matter towards neighbouring buildings. As his neighbour, would I not have a basis to sue the condo corporation?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> ...
> 
> I thought the burgers were for sale? Maybe he is selling the burger and giving the drinks for free to get around the licensing. I did find it interesting that the cops did not visit on at least one call because they were busy. I wonder why this guy is so special. He had enough money to pay off the security door man.


Yes PA, maybe onto something there. Free drinks, costly burgers. Ha!

Reminds me of the good old days when BC was under rent control for most units in the West End (and elsewhere depending on when built and rental amount). Landlords would say that the suite rents for $300. But, it comes with a coffee table. It costs $100 a month for the table. Take it or leave it.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> This building is one of my neighbours. If the strata fails to enforce their own rules, can I sue the strata perhaps for endangering my health and wellbeing by allowing illegal and dangerous activity on their premises?
> 
> Imagine that a condo building had a guy who routinely goes to the rooftop, and sprays a firehose of fecal matter towards neighbouring buildings. Would I not have some recourse to sue the condo corporation, as the neighbour?


A novel proposition j4b, but some enterprising lawyer might try it on. The law, it is said, is a living tree, always evolving to meet modern times and situations that arise. As that master of the language and the law, Cardozo, J., once remarked:

_The inn that gives shelter for the night is not the journey's end. The law, like the traveller, must be ready for tomorrow._

We are living in interesting times. Our courts might lend a sympathetic ear to the type of thing you are talking about, whether brought by an individual plaintiff, multiple plaintiffs or under the Class Proceedings Act. Could be fun to try!

Of course, one must not lose sight of the fact that you have to be rich or crazy to start a lawsuit, but even that stern admonition can be mitigated in the right situation.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Mukhang pera said:


> Of course, one must not lose sight of the fact that you have to be rich or crazy to start a lawsuit, but even that stern admonition can be mitigated in the right situation.


I am tempted to try something like this but sadly, I don't have deep enough pockets to take this risk.

Vancouver is full of rich people with multi million dollar condos, isn't it? Maybe I will distribute this idea in flyers in nearby mailboxes, to encourage others to look into it.

Now I am serious about this part. I wonder what a good method might be to spark up this idea among his neighbours. Perhaps I can start by distributing some literature INSIDE his building, to encourage his neighbours to sue him. I'm sure that some people in his building are not even aware of what this guy is doing.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

you have obviously never had you fingers stick when fixing things with crazy glue. It sticks tenaciously to skin in seconds. In fact with some medically fancier name this is actually how they close some skin wounds - quite actually glue them together with cyanoacrylate glue.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I am tempted to try something like this but sadly, I don't have deep enough pockets to take this risk.
> 
> Vancouver is full of rich people with multi million dollar condos, isn't it? Maybe I will distribute this idea in flyers in nearby mailboxes, to encourage others to look into it.
> 
> Now I am serious about this part. I wonder what a good method might be to spark up this idea among his neighbours. Perhaps I can start by distributing some literature INSIDE his building, to encourage his neighbours to sue him. I'm sure that some people in his building are not even aware of what this guy is doing.


 ... I think the neighbours should start with the Condo Corp first. Where is the Corp's responsibility for the safety and livability of the other tenants, never mind on the value of the units sitting next to this POS. Especially when these illegal parties (and god know what other illegal activities) been going on for more than a month as per the details of the article.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> Yes PA, maybe onto something there. Free drinks, costly burgers. Ha!
> 
> Reminds me of the good old days when BC was under rent control for most units in the West End (and elsewhere depending on when built and rental amount). Landlords would say that the suite rents for $300. But, it comes with a coffee table. It costs $100 a month for the table. Take it or leave it.


I remember this is how ticket scalpers used to get around the system for sold out games and shows. Ticket had to be sold for face value, but you had to buy the key chain for $1000

Regarding your post on a civil litigation. I understand that some 'busy body' that has no damages cannot successful sue. What if one of the attendees got Covid or injured? Could they not sue? I know bars have a duty of care not sell alcohol for those already intoxicated. I wonder if something like that could be done.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I would hope that the moment one of the building neighbours catches covid, they sue the condo corporation for allowing these massive parties and gatherings.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> ...
> Regarding your post on a civil litigation. I understand that some 'busy body' that has no damages cannot successful sue. What if one of the attendees got Covid or injured? Could they not sue? I know bars have a duty of care not sell alcohol for those already intoxicated. I wonder if something like that could be done.


PA, they just might succeed in such a lawsuit, however distasteful I might find it.

In my early days at the bar, such a suit could likely have been defeated, using a defence, expressed by the Latin maxim: _Volenti non fit injuria _which, in more plain English, means "to a willing person, injury is not done". Sometimes this is expressed as "voluntary assumption of risk". In short, the plaintiff knew he/she was taking a chance and went ahead notwithstanding. So here, an adult attending the unlawful assemblage would be considered as knowing it carried an enhanced risk of becoming Covid infected. I think their claim should be barred on that ground. But, the defence has been significantly eroded in recent years. Now, for the defence to operate, not only must the risk be known and accepted, but there must be evidence to support an inference that the plaintiff, in effect, waived any right to sue.

A related defence, and another of my pets, that has also suffered in recent times, is captured by the Latin maxim: _Ex turpi causa non oritur actio, _which means “from a dishonourable cause, an action does not arise.” This splendid legal doctrine states that a person will be unable to pursue a cause of action, if such action arises as a result of his/her own illegal act. Again, I believe the whole operation that night at the defendant's condo was marked by unlawful acts relating, _inter alia_, to liquor sales, public assembly in times of Covid and who-knows-what else. There was also an egregious display of disrespect for the law in general, for neighbours, and for the general public welfare. While I think the ex turpi defence should prevail on the facts presented, alas, I think it more likely to be defeated.

PA, you have pointed out the duty of care owed by bars not to over serve. That notion of liability has been extended to those hosting parties at home - what has become to be known as "social host" liability. So here, our social host might be liable for hosting an event fraught with Covid risk. The cause of action would sound in negligence, including that subspecies of negligence known as occupiers liability, codified in BC by the Occupiers Liability Act. That would leave our host, if failing in the defences of _volens_ and _ex turpi, _to fall back on a plea of contributory negligence, which would not defeat the claim, but to result in apportionment of damages. 

For further reading, for those few who might be interested, a fairly recent BC case which discusses these overlapping concepts follows:

DAMAGES — Bars to damage claims — Ex turpi causa • NEGLIGENCE — Defences — Volenti non fit injuria • Contributory negligence • MOTOR VEHICLE LIABILITY — Pedestrians — Contributory negligence — Intoxicated plaintiff directing derogatory comments to defendant who arrived at a Subway restaurant in his car — When defendant exiting the restaurant, plaintiff following him to his car and pounding on window and hood when unable to prevent defendant from closing the driver’s door — Defendant’s car hitting plaintiff causing significant injury when defendant attempting to drive off — Court not finding plaintiff's personal injury action barred by doctrines of ex turpi or volenti, but finding contributory negligence — Court apportioning liability 40% to plaintiff, 60% to defendant. • QUANTUM ASSESSMENT — Pelvis • Loss of future earnings • Future care costs — Plaintiff, then age 19, suffering fractured pelvis as result of 2010 motor vehicle accident — Plaintiff’s injuries preventing him from seeking to become an electrician, although court finding him unlikely to achieve that goal in any event — Court assessing damages at $221,882 including non-pecuniary damages of $100,000, past wage loss of $15,000, loss of future earnings of $100,000, future care costs of $5,000.

Ackley v. Audette S.C., Skolrood J. , 2015 BCSC 1272, Vancouver M104849, July 23, 2015 , 41pp.





__





2015 BCSC 1272 Ackley v. Audette






www.bccourts.ca


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I think the neighbours should start with the Condo Corp first. Where is the Corp's responsibility for the safety and livability of the other tenants, never mind on the value of the units sitting next to this POS. Especially when these illegal parties (and god know what other illegal activities) been going on for more than a month as per the details of the article.


In my experience some condos deal with large parties with rules regarding noise and/or rules regarding behaviour on the common elements (which tend to get abused by attendees at large, rowdy parties). Another way is clause in the declaration or rules stating the owners and occupants must adhere to all laws regarding noise, occupancy rates, and all other applicable laws and bylaws.

But the problem comes to enforcement, which must go through the courts, so takes a long time and some degree of persistence by management and board members, which many boards don't have the guts to enforce. Welcome to community living.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I want to know who are the people attending these parties? Don't they know better, or are there hundreds of dumb clucks wandering around with pockets full of money looking for a good time?
Next question, how many Covid cases can be traced to these get togethers? It would be interesting to know how effective the quarantine is, and how much difference it makes.
Third thing, quarantine laws have been around since the 14th century, I would think there would be a body of law on this by now. I expect he will be fined and put on probation with some kind of restraining order forbidding him from doing it again, with the penalty of going to jail if he pulls something like this in the next 2 years.
Let's keep some perspective on this. Yes he is an *hole and deserves to be shut down and punished but let's not lose our minds.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Was just thinking. Would some one who goes to one of these parties and then has Covid be willing to tell the contract tracer they were at an illegal party. If they did, would they even be able to trace the other people that were at the party. No wonder there may Be so much community spread.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> Was just thinking. Would some one who goes to one of these parties and then has Covid be willing to tell the contract tracer they were at an illegal party. If they did, would they even be able to trace the other people that were at the party. No wonder there may Be so much community spread.


Of course they don't admit to it, and they certainly won't tell any contact tracing people.

"Gee I wonder how COVID keeps spreading in the community!"


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Apparently the idiot put up a go fund me page. It had a few donation but was taken down. He is complaining that $10k cash and $5k booze was confiscated. He is fighting the charges saying his rights have been infringed.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Of course they don't admit to it, and they certainly won't tell any contact tracing people.
> 
> "Gee I wonder how COVID keeps spreading in the community!"


It kind of reminds me of the early days where an outbreak was identified at a strip club in Toronto... I'm sure a lot of husbands were up front about that.

Also, I bet there are a lot of people who disregard basic precautions like face masks, but when they catch COVID, they'll say that they did everything right.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> Apparently the idiot put up a go fund me page. It had a few donation but was taken down. He is complaining that $10k cash and $5k booze was confiscated. He is fighting the charges saying his rights have been infringed.


 ... the moronic prince living in a $3M penthouse needs gofunding??? And only his rights (and what were they?, other than the measly cash and booze) were infringed??? He should sue all the authorities in BC as well as that in Ottawa, right up to the SCOC too. WTF.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Mukhang pera said:


> PA, they just might succeed in such a lawsuit, however distasteful I might find it.


I'm curious what you think of this. Let's say one of his building neighbours (nearby units, or someone with lots of exposure in the lobby) catches COVID. For the sake of argument let's say it's a concierge staff member who is in the lobby and who was definitely exposed to those hundreds of partygoers coming in & out.

Let's say this concierge staff member dies of COVID, and he has life insurance.

Do you think the life insurer might pursue this man? It's difficult to directly tie the death to the parties, but on the other hand, the penthouse guy was breaking the law and exposing everyone around him to a significant health hazard.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> Do you think the life insurer might pursue this man?


Taking an amateurish stab at your question above ... my guess is no, just looking at all the lives lost at LTCs.

OTOH, the life insurer might want to notify its property and casualty division (or find out who it is) and deem this risk as being super- "hazardous" and drop him altogether. He can now self-insure himself .. for unlimited personal liability.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> ...
> Do you think the life insurer might pursue this man? It's difficult to directly tie the death to the parties, but on the other hand, the penthouse guy was breaking the law and exposing everyone around him to a significant health hazard.


A nice idea, but I do not think the insurer has a cause of action the law recognizes. If it did, we would more of a nation of insurers than we are already. 

The insurer insured for the policy term. Can we know that, but for penthouse guy's conduct, the insured would not have died from some other cause during the term of the policy? Even leaving that argument aside (and the causation issue you already mentioned), I can see "public policy" reasons for not extending a cause of action to a life insurer in most cases. While I am reluctant to ride the unruly horse of public policy, here I see too many problems.

In tort law, we talk about duty and standard of care, to whom is a duty owed, etc. Do I owe a duty of care to the life insurer of someone for whose death I might be responsible? 

Subrogation is an insurance law concept, but not one I have seen extended to life insurance. Where a tortfeasor has caused loss to an insured and the insurer covers that loss, the insurer will often have a statutory or contractual right to "stand in the shoes" of the insured and to assume the right to an action the insured could have brought. So, if your negligence caused my house to burn down, my insurer might cover my loss, but then pursue you for recovery. But I don't see the concept of subrogation being a good fit with life insurance. The insurer and I were the contracting parties. I am dead. Have I suffered a loss for which the insurer provided coverage and may now stand in my shoes?

I have never seen a case in BC of an insurer suing to recover a death benefit paid. That is perhaps because of the contractual niceties involved. The Insurance Act in this province provides, in part:

*Subrogation*
36 (1) The insurer, on making a payment or assuming liability under a contract, is subrogated to all rights of recovery of the insured against any person, and may bring an action in the name of the insured to enforce those rights.

(2) If the net amount recovered after deducting the costs of recovery is not sufficient to provide a complete indemnity for the loss or damage suffered, that amount must be divided between the insurer and the insured in the proportions in which the loss or damage has been borne by them respectively.

So, with life insurance, if the insured is deceased, what right of recovery do they have, that may be assigned to the insurer? I think the answer is none.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thal81 said:


> The charges are $25k and/or 6 months in jail. What a joke.


This guy was sentenced to 1 day in jail, and ordered to pay a $5000 fine. He was already held in detention previously, so he won't spend any more time in jail. He's free to go.

Movassaghi's lawyer was his brother. At this rate, this financial crook (who was a crooked advisor) and his brother are going to be on a crime spree for the rest of their lives.

What kind of punishment is that? This is cheaper than licensing fees for running a legitimate bar! There are actual, *legitimate* restaurants who spent far more money than this on COVID safety measures and outdoor patio space.

This is how weak public health enforcement is. There's basically no penalty at all... no wonder everyone violates the quarantine requirements. Worst case scenario, what's going to happen? Maybe a $5000 fine? Who cares!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Plus a criminal record, which will come in real handy when he interviews for jobs or tries to travel to the US.

People who commit "dumb little" crimes often forget about that little bit of data residing in the RCMP CPIC database and shared with US customs.

I remember the parents of students at Western University who were arrested for trespassing and other minor charges during the annual Frosh weekend.

Oh no, now my son can't go to law school.......become a doctor.......or go the US to play baseball.

Yea, it kind of sucks to be an idiot sometimes.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> This guy was sentenced to 1 day in jail, and ordered to pay a $5000 fine. He was already held in detention previously, so he won't spend any more time in jail. He's free to go.
> 
> Movassaghi's lawyer was his brother. At this rate, this financial crook (who was a crooked advisor) and his brother are going to be on a crime spree for the rest of their lives.
> 
> ...


Well I think 1 day in jail is a sad sentence, and I think you should get credit for pre-trial custody.

But yeah, we're really soft on crime in Canada, which is why we have problem with criminals.
We actually don't have that many, we're generally happy, get along, law abiding people.
But we have career criminals who just don't care, because we don't actually hold people accountable.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ There's no second chance for this *******. His next move against the pandemic laws will contemplate a man-slaughter charge. Too bad the judge didn't throw the damn-book at him.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our prisons are overflowing with people who committed "low level crimes", and it is estimated that 10% of the population has a criminal record.

I don't think the answer is putting more people into prisons. We need more diversion from criminal courts to civil courts where fines and restitution are ordered.

The ancient criminal justice system is a poor place to enforce newly adopted political correctness standards and all that ails society.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Our prisons are overflowing with people who committed "low level crimes", and it is estimated that 10% of the population has a criminal record.
> 
> I don't think the answer is putting more people into prisons. We need more diversion from criminal courts to civil courts where fines and restitution are ordered.
> 
> The ancient criminal justice system is a poor place to address newly adopted political correctness.


Please support this claim that they only committed "low level crimes".

Also many of the "low level" convictions are plea deals. This suggests that their low level conviction is actually the result of a higher level crime. 
I'm okay with that, the quicker and easier it is to get these criminals off the streets, the better.




__





Victim Participation in the Plea Negotiation Process in canada


This report examines the current legislative and judicial responses to plea bargaining within Canada and victim participation. The report also looks at the regulatory process for plea bargaining in the federal courts of the United States, with a specific




www.justice.gc.ca





Actually moving criminal cases to civil courts is doubly bad.
1. Buying your way out of crime because you're rich is fundamentally unfair.
2. Criminal courts guarantee legal support to defend yourself, Civil courts do not.

So you're saying we should deny poor people lawyers, then fine them to keep them poor, but let rich people buy their way out of crimes.
Please suggest what jailable offenses should be switched to a fine?
Maybe a rape is only $2k, you know the cost of a good hooker, that sounds like reasonable "restitution".

Myself I want the death penalty for rapists, and no "buy your way out of jail" for serious crimes, but that's just me.


I'm not surprised that you're actually suggesting making the legal system even more unfair to poor people.
Many leftie ideas are poorly thought out.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are more people deemed innocent (awaiting trials) in Provincial prisons than have been tried and found guilty.

Alex Kargus was awaiting trial for fraud and identity theft, when he was beaten to death in the Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre.

Your comment on rape is distracting and uninformed. There are summary and indictable offenses........and rape certainly would be indictable.

Summary offenses should be considered for alternative solutions, unless the government wants to build a host of new prisons.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> There are more people deemed innocent (awaiting trials) in Provincial prisons than have been tried and found guilty.
> 
> Alex Kargus was awaiting trial for fraud and identity theft, when he was beaten to death in the Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre.
> 
> ...


Ahh, more claims without data.
Also interesting that you made a distinction with "provincial prisons", rather than prisons overall.
I expect you know that most people in jail have been convicted.
Innocent people shouldn't be in jail at all, and Trudeau should appoint enough judges to deal with the backlog.

you didn't say what crimes you should be able to buy your way out of. I picked one (of many) where the current penalty is insultingly soft, and has a reasonably easy to determine "market value"
I don't think you should be able to buy your way out of any crime.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

On average there are about 39,000 inmates in adult institutions, of which 15,348 in federal institutions and 23,423 in provincial / territorial institutions.

The number of adult institutions is 216 of which 43 are federal and 173 are provincial / territorial prisons.

There are 4 times as many Provincial/Territorial prisons, holding 50% more inmates than Federal prisons.

The population in the Provincial prisons consist of 39% of the inmates awaiting trial, and the balance is serving sentences of less than 2 years.

These are summary convictions, which by definition is for low level crimes. It also includes intermittent sentences (weekends).

Maybe you think building and maintaining prisons is a good use of tax dollars.

I would rather spend my tax dollars in more productive rehabilitation efforts.

As per usual, you are presenting your opinion as fact......which it isn't.





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Canada | World Prison Brief







www.prisonstudies.org


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

I smell a Jimmy Buffett song in here somewhere.........


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> As per usual, you are presenting your opinion as fact......which it isn't.


A post full of unsupported claims, backed by that attack on mine.

What opinion did I present as fact?


I think that's you're whole approach, spout a bunch of unsupported crap, then call the other person a liar.
Which fact was wrong, or even unsupported?


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

An eye for an eye.

When the Gestapo is destroying lives of the masses by breaking the Castle laws. The masses need to destroy the lives of the Gestapo by breaking castle laws.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

:) lonewolf said:


> An eye for an eye.
> 
> When the Gestapo is destroying lives of the masses by breaking the Castle laws. The masses need to destroy the lives of the Gestapo by breaking castle laws.


lonewolf, I know where this Vancouver penthouse apartment guy lives (I found his building). If you want, I can give you his address. Maybe he'd enjoy a visit from you. These days, it's probably hard for people to find like-minded individuals.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> Secondly, does the Liquor Board in BC (if there is one?) allow private sales of alcohol in one's residence? If not, then why isn't he "charged" for those crimes too ... let alone all the other multiple ones with Covid19? There're thirdly, fourthly ... is this low-life's laundry list ever long.


It mentions the parties. It doesn’t mention any sale of alcohol. It was mostly likely provided by the host to all the guests for free.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Fain said:


> It mentions the parties. It doesn’t mention any sale of alcohol. It was mostly likely provided by the host to all the guests for free.


In one of the articles, it mentioned that the host was selling tickets to the event as an illegal club. To sell drinks. There were ‘dancers’ and of course cheeseburgers. This was being done as a illegal club.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Fain said:


> It mentions the parties. It doesn’t mention any sale of alcohol. It was mostly likely provided by the host to all the guests for free.


 ... the POS even had a POS (Point-of-Sale) terminal to collect the alcohol costs and possibly the cheeseburgers, if not the "cover-charges". 

The POS now claims he has learned a "hard-lesson" and is following the pandemic "rules" to a "T" ... right. First, talk about how low an (ex)-shady financial advisor can go by the need to operate an illegal nightclub in a $2M "penthouse", serving cheeseburgers with alcohol. LMAO. 

Don't know why the judge didn't throw the book at this POS but then that's a BC judge.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> Don't know why the judge didn't throw the book at this POS but then that's a BC judge.


They never throw the book at them, they're always letting people off with warnings.
Even when they put them in jail, they give them short sentences on reduced charges, then you have people complaining how harsh everyone is.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Now I've seen how a real life COVID party happens, one of my neighbours.

The young woman in her 20s lives alone and I think she has one friend over to start with. That is allowed (2 people indoors).

Then the guests start arriving. Typically it looked like groups of 2 guests, various friends of hers, come for a while and then leave. At first I couldn't understand what was going on, and why the elevator was so active, with many people leaving. All the elevator activity is what woke me up, and it kept going on to 4 am.

*Over the span of 7-8 hours, with multiple arrivals & departures*, I estimate that she rotated 10+ guests through her tiny apartment while probably only having 4 at any one time. And with all of those guests, the girls do some kind of drunken karaoke where they shriek at the tops of their lungs.

I'm going to call the police next time, but it's very hard to catch what they are doing because the police will only find 3 or 4 people inside.

And that is how COVID spreads.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

These ^ COVID parties have happened at least twice now, and I'm debating remedies. I'm curious what other people think I can / should do

(a) Complain to the building manager, obviously. I generously decided to let this recent party go, but next time, I am going to record a timeline of arrivals & departures and send a complaint

(b) Call the police. These kinds of parties are against the law where I live, but my concern is that the police will only find 3-4 people inside and the girls will say they're sorry. Plus it's highly unlikely that police will give these young women any penalty (they will charm the police, say they're super sorry, etc)

(c) I can start making appearances at 3 am and scaring the sh*t out of her guests as they leave by elevator. I can shout at each of them and tell them there's going to be hell next time they show up, and that I'm calling the police and don't want to see them back here, etc

(d) as a gentler form, I can make appearances late night as the people leave by elevator, and more politely say that they should not be visiting our building and ask them to never come again.

(e) I can post a sign on the elevator, that each departing guest will see, maybe something like: Attention party guests. ??? not sure what to write


Unfortunately while (c) and (d) might be effective deterrents, I also fear retaliation. More seriously, both expose me to COVID risk so it's probably best to not interact with any of these people. They are high risk of COVID, exactly the demographic where the disease is spreading like crazy... too dangerous to even talk to them.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ If you hear their activities, then set your ghetto-blaster (or TV, computer?) at the loudest (with your ear plugs on of course) with some wailing old-folks music (Frank Sinatra? opera music? your favourite?) against the wall next to their unit, playing for them. No need to confront them or get yourself exposed to Covid, stay in your unit.

And proceed (maybe simultaneously) to a) and/or b) if the above doesn't stop them. Some people have dense heads.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

The saga continues...

It appears the Government of BC filed a civil forfeiture action last Friday against the owner for the condo, though not just because of the stuff associated with hosting the parties like liquor sales without a license, not declaring taxable income, etc. It also seems to infer that funding for the condo came another one of his brothers (not his lawyer brother) who has been investigated for drug dealing and is associated with organized crime since he didn't have enough lawful income to come up with the downpayment and service the mortgage.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

milhouse said:


> The saga continues...
> 
> It appears the Government of BC filed a civil forfeiture action last Friday against the owner for the condo, though not just because of the stuff associated with hosting the parties like liquor sales without a license, not declaring taxable income, etc. It also seems to infer that funding for the condo came another one of his brothers (not his lawyer brother) who has been investigated for drug dealing and is associated with organized crime since he didn't have enough lawful income to come up with the downpayment and service the mortgage.


Not surprising. Him and his brother(s) are obviously scumbags. @Mukhang pera may be interested in the story.

I'm absolutely not surprised if they're involved with organized crime. As I mentioned earlier, when you see behaviour like this (including his history doing financial frauds) you know for sure this is the tip of the iceberg, and these guys are involved with more criminal activities. These are precursors / indicators of criminality.

Of course they were stupid enough to draw the attention of the police and media. They could have easily avoided all of that if they weren't so stupid to taunt the prosecutors by demanding a warrant.

In this city, organized crime and "condos" go hand in hand. With a lot of crooked real estate agents, crooked developers, and lawyers all around.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Vancouver man who hosted large parties sentenced again for violating COVID-19 rules

Looks like this flaunter prefers living in a jail cell instead of a condo. He has a better chance of catching Covid with 29 days jail-time than the previous 1 day only.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

The forfeiture of the condo cracked me up


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ A lien on it in the meantime would do nicely.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> The forfeiture of the condo cracked me up


Yeah I think there's a good chance his $2.8 million condo was obtained through criminal activities, given his [family] history. Previous articles mentioned links to organized crime.

He needs to be given a much larger financial penalty.


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