# Non Canadian companies on the TSX



## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

i am trying to compile a list of companies that are primarily based outside Canada but listed on the TSX (and TSX.V).
companies whose all or majority operations are outside Canada.

in the US it is easy to do this because of the ADR but there is nothing similar on the TSX.

following are the ones i know of.
can people please suggest more names or if anyone knows of a comprehensive list that would be appreciated.

Laramide Mining (LAM)
Africa Oil (AOI)
Silvercorp Metals (SVM)
Uranium One (UUU)
Sino Forest (TRE) 
Pacific Rubiales Energy (PRE)
Tuscany International Drilling (TID)
Boyuan Construction (BOY)
Fortuna Silver Mines (FVI)
Gran Tierra Energy (GTE)

I am sure there are many more.
i don't want every single junior mining and oil company with a well in Congo or a mine in Mongolia but i can do that analysis later.

ideally i would like to focus on non speculative companies based abroad i.e. companies with revenue, earnings and some cash flow.

please post any that you know of


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## stephenheath (Apr 3, 2009)

In another thread someone mentioned one that I made a note to check out but am not near my notes... it was Eagle Energy ... something... and if I'm putting the right company with the right fragmented memory, they were an Alberta reit holding only American holdings to get around the reit tax through a loophole. I'm not even sure I could remember which thread or forum it was on, other than it was definately here on CMF... I think... argh.

Edit: Ok, it was bugging me that I couldn't find it using CMF's search so I tried google and recognized the home page from when I glanced at it after seeing the thread, it's definately http://www.eagleenergytrust.com/ ... saw that it was EGL so came back to search on that and try and find the thread, but it wouldn't let me search with such a small search term, tried google searching on it with CMF+EGL and found this http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php?t=9941 but that's not where I read about it, so who knows. Credit to all who mentioned it, I guess


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

canadian_investor said:


> i am trying to compile a list of companies that are primarily based outside Canada but listed on the TSX (and TSX.V). companies whose all or majority operations are outside Canada.
> 
> in the US it is easy to do this because of the ADR but there is nothing similar on the TSX.
> 
> ...



Are you sure Laramide Mining is a "non Canadian company"? 

The head office is in Canada and the annual report mentions:


> The Company operates through its wholly owned US subsidiaries, Cerro Dorado Inc. and Laramide Resources (USA) Inc, its wholly
> owned Mexican subsidiary, Mineral Lara S.A. de C.V, and its wholly owned Australian subsidiaries, Lagoon Creek Resources Pty Ltd....


It certainly has most of it's business outside of Canada but seems to be Canadian.

Whereas using the Nokia ADR as an example, Nokia's head office is in Finland, the ADR is traded on the US exchanges and it's business is worldwide.


Cheers


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

stephenheath said:


> In another thread someone mentioned one that I made a note to check out but am not near my notes... it was Eagle Energy ... something... and if I'm putting the right company with the right fragmented memory, they were an Alberta reit holding only American holdings to get around the reit tax through a loophole. I'm not even sure I could remember which thread or forum it was on, other than it was definately here on CMF... I think... argh.
> 
> Edit: Ok, it was bugging me that I couldn't find it using CMF's search so I tried google and recognized the home page from when I glanced at it after seeing the thread, it's definately http://www.eagleenergytrust.com/ ... saw that it was EGL so came back to search on that and try and find the thread, but it wouldn't let me search with such a small search term, tried google searching on it with CMF+EGL and found this http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php?t=9941 but that's not where I read about it, so who knows. Credit to all who mentioned it, I guess


the latest discussion that I recall was here http://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php?t=9648

It has however also been mentioned in the what are you buying thread and a few dividend recommendation/idea threads.

I recently grabbed this stock on tuesday just in time for a near 4% gain. Again i don't use my weekly returns as an indicator for long term results but I take more satisfaction in a +4% gain than a 4% loss after a purchase to confirm my belief in an acquisition. However, the idea and comfort it provides is most likely short term and entirely psychological. I do like the idea of this thread as I would like to gain some more international exposure just not the sino forest kind.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

canadian i've just taken a quick look at your list so please forgive if i've got it wrong. But i believe the list has combined several related kinds of companies.

at one extreme we could have a canadian company with head office situated in canada & majority of shares held by canadian interests; and the properties happen to be located elsewhere (tuscany.)

at the other extreme we could have a faux "canadian" company with head office situated in canada & majority of shares held by overseas interests; and the properties are located elsewhere (uranium one).

there are many factors to consider, nothing is cut & dried.

your africa oil is a new one to me & at first glance it appears to deserve a closer look. Vancouver head office, proporties in africa. So far so good. The officers & directors do not scream out a foreign presence. Out of the corner of my eye i am noticing their high calibre. Out of the corner of the other eye i am noticing a mysterious repetitious frequency of their previous connections with lundin mining.

check the insiders. The 2 big insiders are Lorito holdings s.a.r.l. & Zebra holdings s.a.r.l. Ah, bon, it's european money. So who are lorito/zebra ? why, they are present-day continuations of trusts set up in luxembourg by the late adolf lundin, swedish mining giant & patriarch of the celebrated lundin clan now based in vancouver.

in other words, africa oil is a true multinational. Discreet control from luxembourg. A scion of the international lundin empire. Plenty blue blood. Mind & management in canada. President & ceo from the US. Properties in africa.

my guess is that many smaller resource companies fit this profile. The reason they keep their corporate head office in canada is that for many decades, canadian investment bankers have dominated the globe in raising the $$ that are necessary to fund the resource juniors' startups.

london's barely-regulated AIM market is competing fiercely with canada to attract listings from resource juniors, but afaik canada has not lost her leadership position.


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## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

*@Eclectic12*, Laramide mining indeed has offices here but most (all?) operations are abroad.
if you look at my list above, all the companies (i think) have registered offices here but most or entire operations are abroad.
i would guess that they have listed on the TSX simply to gain access to Canada's capital markets and or low corporate tax rates.
some of these are the infamous chinese rto like TRE and SVM.

your example if Nokia is an ADR as i said in my message Canada doesn't have the same concept of ADR on TSX as the yanks have on NYSE

i realize that most of such companies will inevitably be junion speculative mining or oil exploration companies often with assets in countries that either don't have stock exchanges of their own or very primitive ones.

i am looking for the grain of wheat in the chaff.

companies that operate primarily abroad but are a valid business with revenue, earnings and cash flow.


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## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

*@humble pie* we posted the previous message at the same time.
thanks for your insight into Africa Oil.
i will research more into it.
so far it just jumped out during my research.

you are right it is not cut and dried at all.
it is a complex world.
i am willing to start with a broader list and narrow down.

a lot of the companies i am finding are speculative junior miners or oil and that is to be expected.

so i will spend the elbow grease to narrow down companies that actually have earnings and revenue growth.

so to answer your question, the key is the location of assets and operations. who holds the controlling interests, canadian or foreigners in your example, is secondary.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

puzzled.

why "companies that operate primarily abroad ?"

surely that must be the majority of the tmx plus majority of the vse.

we don't have economies of scale in canada, so successful companies have to go abroad. This has been going on for, what, half a century now. Canadians are excellent multinational managers.

but i'm not sure how collecting their names into a list helps one to invest. Or why a miner with a high-grade mine in val d'or would not be in the same class as a miner with a high-grade mine in tanzania.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

ATP is canadian company with HQ in Boston and operation primary in states


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## Soils4Peace (Mar 14, 2010)

Fm, dpm


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

canadian_investor said:


> *@Eclectic12*, Laramide mining indeed has offices here but most (all?) operations are abroad.
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> ...


I suppose it boils down to what you mean by "non-Canadian" and why you want to know this.

From an stock exchange perspective, I understand that the requirement that determines if the company is Canadian is where the company has it's head office and incorporated. I suspect CRA uses a similar criteria for determining tax issues, such as corporate tax rates and eligibility for the dividend tax credit etc. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can comment.

As humble_pie points out, there's a range of companies that are "Canadian" where the control/ownership is overseas and then there are others where control/ownership is Canadian where the business activities are not.

Here's another way to think about, if I recall correctly, Nortel just before it tanked had most it's business in the US, the majority of employees in the US and head office in Canada - so to you, would that have made Nortel a "non-Canadian" company? Or a potential recent example would be CN, with all the US rail they now own/control, may also have more business outside of Canada.


As for why list on the TSX - as HP says:


> canadian investment bankers have dominated the globe in raising the $$ that are necessary to fund the resource juniors' startups.


It's the same with why a Canadian tech company startup is going to go looking for Venture Capital in the US, where there are many instead a few in Canada. There is an advantage.


As for the Nokia ADR, you are missing my point. The Nokia ADR is listed on a US exchange but the company head quarters is Finland (i.e outside the US). For Laramide, both are in Canada - so it is a different situation.

Also - bear in mind that ADR's are a subset of the non-US companies listed on the US exchanges. I'd argue that only the ADRs are "easy to find". As examples of non-US companies listed, RIM is on the Nasdaq, Bank of Nova Scotia and CN are both on the NYSE. The ADR is a niche product for particular circumstances so there is the potential for a lot more "non-US companies" trading on the US stock markets.


Also - if your criteria is "most business is outside of Canada", I think you'll find there's a lot more than junior mining or oil exploration out there. What about Stantec that is "Canadian" by a whopping 6% of revenue?



Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> [ ... ]
> 
> why "companies that operate primarily abroad ?"
> 
> ...


+1 ... if I'm investing, I want good management that has good assets. Unless the assets are in a country in upheaval or is war torn, I'm more concerned about the quality.


BNS is another example of how complex trying to figure all of this out. 

In most people's minds, it is a boring Canadian bank. Yet, gleaning a few interesting points out of the 2010 annual report, it:
1) operates in 50 countries.
2) Canadian banking provided net income of 54% of Net Income while International banking provided 30% of Net Income.
3) Canadian employees are only 45% of total employees.

IMO, that adds up to a lot of international exposure.


Trivia: 

My favourite was the "US based" software company I read about in about 1998 or so. It incorporated in Nevada, had it's head office there are well and if I recall correctly, about sixty employees there. In comparison, their development/support centre in Vancouver had three hundred and eighty people (something like 90% of all employees).


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

eclectic re any list of canadian publicly traded companies with offshore operations, i think it would probably be easier to do the reverse. Take the tsx & the vse lists & eliminate the few companies whose business is limited to our native land.

perhaps the business school grads among us could post up a short story about why it is that, since WW II, canadians have come to excel at multinational business operations.

the $$ they bring back to the canadian economy are staggering. I recall reading couple years ago that the mining sector alone is the biggest contributor to gnp & by far the greater part of that sector is offshore mining operations.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

what a coincidence. Absolutely stunning piece of news re africa oil yesterday. Possible opportunities coming up.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> what a coincidence. Absolutely stunning piece of news re africa oil yesterday. Possible opportunities coming up.


what news? Can you give a link?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

2 New Zealand oil/gas companies (TAO and NZ) are traded on TSXv.


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## stephenheath (Apr 3, 2009)

gibor said:


> what news? Can you give a link?


I was curious so googled this, not sure if it's the same news, but just in case...

http://thecitizen.co.tz/sunday-citizen/-/20099-tanzania-gas-find-excites-the-world


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## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

gibor said:


> 2 New Zealand oil/gas companies (TAO and NZ) are traded on TSXv.


now we are talking.
that is the kind of stuff i was looking for.
thank you gibor.
TAO and NZ fit the bill perfectly.

do you hold either of these?
what are your thoughts?

i will do my research as well.

ATP seems to be another excellent pick gibor, although it does have substantial business in two of the largest provinces here.
but worth a look.
i will research the financials.

both NZ and TAO have tickled my fancy as well.
btw TAO is not on TSX-V but on the main TSX, it might have been on the V in the past.

good show...my list is expanding.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

No, unfortunatelly I'm not holding those...
I read on weekend interesting article about those 2 companies and linked it to your thread. Now they are look too expensive to me to initiate new position (even though conservative target for NZ is above $5). Let me know about your research...

Another oil company that trades on TSX but have business 100% in US -> EGL.UN (I hold this one)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i am still wondering what is the value of accumulating a humungous list of canadian resource companies that own & operate substantial interests in foreign countries.

the majority of canadian resource companies including the large caps own & operate substantial interests in foreign countries. This began soon after WW II.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i think i will open an africa oil thread among individual companies.

there's a fabulous story there, one that will last for years & years to come.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> i am still wondering what is the value of accumulating a humungous list of canadian resource companies that own & operate substantial interests in foreign countries.
> 
> the majority of canadian resource companies including the large caps own & operate substantial interests in foreign countries. This began soon after WW II.


Probably OP wants exposure to "foreign" stocks through TSX


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## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> i am still wondering what is the value of accumulating a humungous list of canadian resource companies that own & operate substantial interests in foreign countries.





humble_pie said:


> i think i will open an africa oil thread among individual companies.
> there's a fabulous story there, one that will last for years & years to come.


you answered your own question 
that is the purpose.
it's no mystery, no secret agenda.

i want to invest directly in foreign countries without access to their individual stock exchanges which is complex and very hard, if not impossible for small investors like me.

i know there are the large conglomerate multi national corporations like Potash, RIM, the 5 banks and so on.
but i am looking for exclusive operations outside Canada with very little exposure to the economy, politics and conditions in Canada because i do have enough of that.

the idea is to find hidden gems like you have found among the list i posted 

and resource companies are not my goal at all, quite the opposite.
id' love to consider non resource companies but i think that list would be a lot smaller.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

canadian_investor said:


> and resource companies are not my goal at all, quite the opposite.
> id' love to consider non resource companies but i think that list would be a lot smaller.


I'm not sure if you get list at all


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## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

gibor said:


> I'm not sure if you get list at all


There will be a list, I already have some names.
for instance BOY is construction.
it's possible that most of non resource foreign companies would turn out to be from China, as is BOY.
some could be RTO.
there is always that risk.

does anyone know of a way to get access to Chinese, India or other infrastructure companies that operate toll roads, bridges, highways, ferries, and similar properties.
i'm thinking those will have decent cash flow and yield.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i'm as interested in foreign investing stories as the next crumb.

however, starting just by determining which companies have offshore operations is perhaps not a good way to go imho, since finance dot canada is a resource-heavy community & the majority of companies with foreign ops will be resource companies. This means a humungous list.

the problem w the smaller companies is running headlong into stories like africa oil.

in AOI's case, deep-rooted islamic militias & terrorists in somalia will do everything in their power to blockade, stop, ultimately blow up, destroy & eliminate the facilities belonging to the infidel canadian resource extractors.

it's not clear to what extent local tribespeople in somalia will or will not support the al-shabaab terrorist militia.

nevsun in eritrea has a delicate, one might say precarious, relationship with the government.

miners like centerra & eldorado gold have had modern, efficient gold mines totally shut down by foreign governments that are either concerned about environmental issues or they want more money or both.

barrick & kinross deal with gigantic political setbacks all the time. Barrick just pulled out of Reko Diqh in waziristan (northwest border land of pakistan where osama bin laden was recently killed) after spending billions $$ in exploration together with chile's antafagasto. Now the waziri & the pakistani are making like they intend to offer the massive mine property to the chinese. Barrick is understandably outraged.

to make long story short i would never think of buying shares of XYZ just because it has offshore operations in bongobongotriabbadad. Something like detour gold with ops in ontario or energy companies with north american ops is quite a bit safer imho.

to fool around w small resource companies in 3rd world countries is to understand that 1) the host region does indeed include the oil or mineral resource which the company promoters are claiming; and 2) top management is capable of dancing with the insanely difficult politics that will, inevitably, be the norm.


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## canadian_investor (Jul 4, 2011)

my intent is not to find small cap speculative companies operating mines or oil wells in dangerous unreliable parts of the world.
for some reason the discussion became focused only in that direction 

i said somewhere up thread i'm keenly interested in companies with real earnings, cash flow and ideally dividends.
i'd love cash flow positive companies.
i mentioned infrastructure sector such as those operating bridges, toll roads, ferries, highways and so on.
are there any such companies that anyone knows about?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

canadian_inv in your first post you yourself offered a list of known small cap high risk companies with challenging offshore operations.

so that is why, ever since, the conversation has trended in that direction.

you mention you also wish to invest in "Chinese, India or other infrastructure companies that operate toll roads, bridges, highways, ferries, and similar properties."

when such mega-projects are publicly traded, they are nearly always found in the country fund or the country etf of the relevant nation. Wouldn't that be an easier way to go, rather than re-inventing the wheel.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> i'm as interested in foreign investing stories as the next crumb.
> 
> however, starting just by determining which companies have offshore operations is perhaps not a good way to go imho, since finance dot canada is a resource-heavy community & the majority of companies with foreign ops will be resource companies. This means a humungous list.
> 
> ...


+1 ... though I'd be more concerned about the extra work.

Returning to my CN example, IMO it's relatively easy to assess the risk based on management style plus the foreign areas they operate in (i.e. Canada and US). 

Compare that to say a Chinese manufacturer who could be selling to Japan, Asia, Canada, the US, Sinapore, Burma etc. etc. etc. What are the risk factors, including instability? Can an investor in Canada find out about changes in time to protect the investment capital?

IMO - this is one of the few areas where paying for a money manager makes sense.


As for majority will be resource - maybe and maybe not. 

Even "boring" Canadian electricity companies have assets in Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Barbados, Grand Bahama, Belize, Central America, as well as Turks and Caicos.



Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

canadian_investor said:


> my intent is not to find small cap speculative companies operating mines or oil wells in dangerous unreliable parts of the world.
> for some reason the discussion became focused only in that direction
> 
> i said somewhere up thread i'm keenly interested in companies with real earnings, cash flow and ideally dividends.
> ...


I think it's trended towards the small cap as that is what is available and is plentiful on the Canadian stock exchanges, as a Canadian company.

If the companies were bigger/dependable - they're less likely to need to jump through the hoops of a Canadian stock exchange listing. For example - if the Chinese manufacturing company is added to an index, there will be demand based on just the ETFs and MFs that track the index. 

The question becomes when the effort (as well as Canadian taxes) become too much of a hassle.


Cheers


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