# Help! I think I bought a lemon!



## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Last November we changed our status from a one-car-family to a two-car-family. We purchased a 3 year old gently used (or so they told us) German engineered "luxury car". It was our first experience purchasing a used car. 

Since November we have put approximately 7,000 km on the car. The first month we had it the front speakers stopped working. It was a wiring issue and was fixed by the dealership at no cost. The folllowing month an interior light went - also fixed at no cost. Then this spring when I took the car to a car wash, my young son got soaked in the back seat because a seal on one of the back windows was compromised. Cost to us = $284 (the dealership split the cost when I had a fit). Last week the engine light was on. The charcoal emissions canister was replaced at a cost of $531. (the original cost was $694, but the dealership issued another discount when I had another fit). The dealership has made it clear that they will not be subsidizing any future repairs for us. 

The reason we bought the car was because of the excellent safety features and excellent insurance rating. Now I am thinking that if this first year is any indication of what we can expect to pay on maintenance, we have bought a lemon. 

We have priced out a 2011 Ford Focus. With all the same features as our current car + a couple extra. The Focus also has an impressive safety rating. Ideally we would keep the Focus for 10 years. The purchase price for the Focus (all-in) is $7200 (including trade-in). 

Would you buy the Focus or keep the Benz and hope that it doesn't require 
$7k worth of maintenance over the next 9 years? I am still waiting to hear back from my insurance broker, so for the purposes of this discussion we'll assume insurance costs are the same. Gas for the Focus would be cheaper because it does not require premium gas - the Benz does. 

Thoughts?


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

I thought once you bought a car that you generally have a grace period if it was inspected properly (i.e. similar to the Lemon Law in the US).

Anyway, I'd be getting rid of my Benz for another car. It's obvious that it isn't worth to keep any more.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Dana

Sounds like you have been hit with bad luck on the Benz. That car is going to be expensive to maintain. Parts are also expensive. You are paying a premium because it's a German luxury car. 

If you were to sell the Benz, consider selling it privately. The dealer will give you a low-ball, trade in offer. Do a search on Autotrader and Kijiji, to see approximately what your car is worth on the private sale market. Then compare it to the dealer. I bet it's a huge difference in price. 

I can guess the insurance will be higher in the Focus, because it's more of a common vehicle than the Benz. It appears that the more popular the car is, the higher the insurance premium, because there is more claims filed on insurance history. 

Don't buy a new car. You will loose so much money. Buy a reliable car that's 2-3 years old. Why give 20-30% loses to the dealer's profit and to taxes ? Heck, even a car that's 1-2 years old will save you $$$. By then it's already lost 10-30% of it's value. 

If you want something that's rock solid reliable, good safety features, etc. check out a 1-2 years old, 4 door Accord or Camery. Some of them are quite nice with premium packages. They can make it feel like a higher end, luxury car. Insurance is expensive. Everyone drives one, they have more claims on history.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I suspect the insurance on the new Ford will be lower than the Bents.
Bents is supposedly "premium", it's imported, maintenance/repair is expensive and so is the current value (blue/black book, whatever they use).
You didn't say how much you purchase the Bents for.
These days, American cars are offering a lot of value in terms of features vs. price.
In my opinion, the allure and snob factor of a Bents is much diminished these days.
Consumers are demanding value, not snob effect.
Doesn't help you, I realize, but I say cut your losses and move on.
You may get hit with more serious repairs next time.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I had a Ford Focus for a few years and I thought it was a good car. But during the two years I owned it there were 13 recalls. You might want to check Consumer Reports and look over their ratings for reliability of different models and years. Ford is much better than it used to be, but as a general rule the reliability ratings for Honda and Toyota are higher.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

It appears my guess about the insurance rates were wrong. The focus tends to show an under average, pay-out claim history and there seems to an above average, pay-out claim history with the Benz models:

http://www.ibc.ca/en/Car_Insurance/documents/hcmu/2009/HCMU_E_2009.pdf

"The insurance industry gathers and analyzes statistics on the number and cost of Collision and Comprehensive claims for the most popular Canadian models of cars, passenger vans, SUVs and pickup trucks. It also tracks theft claims for these same vehicles – the cost of these claims and how often these cars are stolen. The results give consumers an accurate picture of how theft, collision and other claims affect the cost of auto insurance for particular makes and models of cars.

This year’s edition of “How Cars Measure Up” presents the results for 1996 through 2008 models where at least 1,500 of each of the models were insured between 2004 and 2008. The information comes entirely from actual insurance claims data, collected from most of the car insurance companies in Canada."


I would be interested in knowing your model name, year and yearly insurance cost.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Jungle said:


> It appears my guess about the insurance rates were wrong. The focus tends to show an under average, pay-out claim history and there seems to an above average, pay-out claim history with the Benz models:
> 
> http://www.ibc.ca/en/Car_Insurance/documents/hcmu/2009/HCMU_E_2009.pdf
> 
> ...


I just got off the phone with my insurance broker. It would cost us $60 more per year to insure the Focus. This would be easily offset by the savings in gas from switching to regular unleaded from premium. 

This is because the medical portion of the insurance premium is higher for the Focus. I.e. if I were in an accident in the Focus it is more likely that I would be injured than if I were in an accident in the Benz. 

That being said, the safety rating of the Focus is one whole point better than the Benz - though that is likely because the Focus is 5 years newer and therefore has safety technology that is 5 years newer than the Benz.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Jungle said:


> If you were to sell the Benz, consider selling it privately. The dealer will give you a low-ball, trade in offer. Do a search on Autotrader and Kijiji, to see approximately what your car is worth on the private sale market. Then compare it to the dealer. I bet it's a huge difference in price.


I could probably sell my car on Autotrader.ca /Kijiji for about $14k. There are a lot of them available right now. The dealership will give me $11k. This is actually a benefit of $12430 since I won't have to pay tax on the Focus on the amount equal to the trade in value.

I am not inclined to sell the car privately as I am alone with kids much of the time (Husband travels) and I don't want to deal with ads, inquiries and accompanying strangers on test drives.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Dana said:


> I just got off the phone with my insurance broker. It would cost us $60 more per year to insure the Focus. This would be easily offset by the savings in gas from switching to regular unleaded from premium.
> 
> This is because the medical portion of the insurance premium is higher for the Focus. I.e. if I were in an accident in the Focus it is more likely that I would be injured than if I were in an accident in the Benz.
> 
> That being said, the safety rating of the Focus is one whole point better than the Benz - though that is likely because the Focus is 5 years newer and therefore has safety technology that is 5 years newer than the Benz.


Makes sense. Also note that another company could have a cheaper rate on your insurance. Don't believe your broker has found the best rate. My rates are cheaper then any broker could find.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Jungle said:


> My rates are cheaper then any broker could find.


OK if I PM you to discuss insurance details?


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Dana said:


> OK if I PM you to discuss insurance details?


No no, I don't sell insurance lol. 

What I _meant_ to say was, in the past, I asked several insurance brokers to give me prices. The prices came back higher and I STILL got a cheaper price from directly contacting Meloche Monnex. (no broker)

Do a quote here:

http://www.melochemonnex.com/en/home2


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

German cars are expensive, even more expensive to fix and not nearly as reliable as they used to be.

In the 80's, 90's the Japanese cars had to prove themselves against the German cars and now that they have... they are starting to follow the Germans

Korean cars (Kia, Hyundai) are the ones trying to prove themselves now

If I was shopping today it would be for a used Japanese car hands down. Personally I won't touch American vehicles but they should have something to prove now as well.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I think you should just keep the Benz. You've had two repairs in almost a year totalling $815. That's not a big deal.

If you want to go with a cheaper/newer car then go with the Ford - but don't do it just because of a few inconvenient repairs.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

Dana said:


> The charcoal emissions canister was replaced at a cost of $531.


pretty sure factory emissions warranty is 5 years/100,000km by law in Canada- a Mercedes dealer would've replaced that for free 



Dana said:


> hope that it doesn't require
> $7k worth of maintenance over the next 9 years?


that's a gamble....one automatic transmission rebuild or replacement would probably push you over a $7K total for the 9 years

about a 50/50 shot I'd say


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

Dont buy a used car if you dont want to pay for repairs.
Dont buy a german car luxury or not if you dont want to pay for repairs.
For the love of god dont buy a Ford if you dont want to pay for repairs.
Hyundai is a better product than anything domestic.
Japanese cars are still the most durable.
But forget buying a used japanese car. It is a myth you can buy a 1-3 year old japanese car for 30% less. Go and try and you will see.
Get a civic and drive it until it falls apart, which will most likely be 10+ years.
Heck even a Hyundai accent is less than 10k new, and comes with a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. Where else can you drive brand new with no repair bills for 5 years all for under 10K?


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

These have been minor albeit expensive and irritating problems with the Benz. You have to expect higher expenses with a luxury used car. I would keep it and hope that things settle down. It's a much better car than the Ford,IMHO.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Dana said:


> Last November we changed our status from a one-car-family to a two-car-family. We purchased a 3 year old gently used (or so they told us) German engineered "luxury car". It was our first experience purchasing a used car.
> 
> Since November we have put approximately 7,000 km on the car. The first month we had it the front speakers stopped working. It was a wiring issue and was fixed by the dealership at no cost. The folllowing month an interior light went - also fixed at no cost. Then this spring when I took the car to a car wash, my young son got soaked in the back seat because a seal on one of the back windows was compromised. Cost to us = $284 (the dealership split the cost when I had a fit). Last week the engine light was on. The charcoal emissions canister was replaced at a cost of $531. (the original cost was $694, but the dealership issued another discount when I had another fit). The dealership has made it clear that they will not be subsidizing any future repairs for us.
> 
> ...


My thoughts are easy, learn how to do it yourself, and don't take it to a dealer for repairs.

A window seal is an easy fix, was it the door window or a fixed window. Either way taking it to an auto glass place would have cost half as much. A fixed window can be repaired for like 20 dollars all by yourself.

A charcoal canister isn't an issue either. In fact, many people just disconnect it, or bypass it completely.

And you took it to a dealer for a burnt out light? I hope there was more to it than that.


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## Rob_23 (May 29, 2010)

German's just aren't the best electrical engineers, leave that up to the Japanese. I think it might be more bad luck in your case since the car is still pretty new. But more than likely you will keep getting electrical problems especially since you car has started with them already. 

If you want something to match the Benz in the lux get a Hyundai Genesis, not sure what there going for used but when they came out you could not hear a bad thing about them. I also saw it personally at the Auto Show too, very nice looking car, in and out.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

hystat said:


> pretty sure factory emissions warranty is 5 years/100,000km by law in Canada- a Mercedes dealer would've replaced that for free [\QUOTE]
> 
> I can't find any information about emission warranty legislation in Canada. I have found info for the US and BC seems to have their own law. Would you be able to provide a website or other reference?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

bean438 said:


> Japanese cars are still the most durable.
> But forget buying a used japanese car. It is a myth you can buy a 1-3 year old japanese car for 30% less. Go and try and you will see.
> Get a civic and drive it until it falls apart, which will most likely be 10+ years.
> Heck even a Hyundai accent is less than 10k new, and comes with a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. Where else can you drive brand new with no repair bills for 5 years all for under 10K?


Yea that's the thing, the reputation has made them expensive and they are mostly Americanized now too. Love my 90's Honda built in Japan, not a fan of any new Honda's at all. If I had to buy now I'd still get used Japanese because I prefer to work on them (certainly compared to Germans) and parts are readily available. Someone said $7000 for a tranny above? That's more than I paid for my car and I paid $500 for a JDM tranny just because I wanted sportier gears, so heck I grabbed a JDM engine for $500 while I'm at it (in Japan they don't drive passed 100k) And then I sold my old tranny/engine for about the same price since they are rock solid and fit into about any Honda


New Korean cars are the best all around today imo (warranty, looks, price etc) The resale value and parts availability is coming


OP I can't imagine how you would go from a Benz to a Focus. The cost of buying and selling alone will keep the Benz running for awhile now, and it would be a much more enjoyable ride. Just sell before it needs serious maint


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

It is a common myth that German cars are more reliable. The Benz has a particualry bad record. Even the BMW is only average. Kia and Hyundai are the bargains now, especially used because they carry bigger discounts but offer high reliability.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

kcowan said:


> It is a common myth that German cars are more reliable. The Benz has a particualry bad record. Even the BMW is only average.


I don't have access to Consumer Reports' ratings, but I do subscribe to Protegez-Vous, Québec's version of Consumer Reports. The Mercedes does get mediocre ratings on reliability, but BMW's Series 3 line got the highest marks of any non-Japanese car. Their most highly rated cars are mostly Toyotas, Hondas, Subarus, Mazdas, and Kias, as one would expect, but BMW is up there with one or two models and the Ford Fusion got top ranking among the hybrids. The Ford Mustang also got top ratings in its group. Volkswagen is usually down near the bottom of the reliability list, although the Golf got a good rating this year.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Dana said:


> Would you buy the Focus or keep the Benz and hope that it doesn't require
> $7k worth of maintenance over the next 9 years? I am still waiting to hear back from my insurance broker, so for the purposes of this discussion we'll assume insurance costs are the same. Gas for the Focus would be cheaper because it does not require premium gas - the Benz does.
> 
> Thoughts?


With this statement you assume that the Focus will not have any maintence/repair costs over the next 9 years.

The Benz will probably have 7K worth of repairs in 9 years...but the Focus will probably have a few thousand of repairs over the same period of time too.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I drove a focus for a short time, a while back. While Ford cars are actually quite good these days, I think focus is a bit TOO small especially if you have kids. If you get something too small now, you'll be tempted at your next replacement to get something too big to compensate. I don't know about getting 10 yrs out of a focus. Don't be suckered in by the price. You do get what you pay for. I think you are better to pay more for a better car so that you waste less time and money in recalls, with mechanic etc. My recommendations for 0-3 year old cars:

1. Ford Fusion
2. Toyota Camry or Corolla
3. Honda Accord
4. Chrysler 300 (something a bit nicer and roomier inside) make sure 2008+

ALWAYS SHOP AROUND, don't act quickly. Dealers are there to sell and will tell you anything to get your sale.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I drove a focus for a short time, a while back. While Ford cars are actually quite good these days, I think focus is a bit TOO small especially if you have kids.


Depends on the size of your family of course. I know a family of four (two adults and two young kids) who drive a Honda Fit and are perfectly happy with it -- it even has enough room for them on vacations; they can fit four bikes on a roof rack and the trunk space in back is plenty big enough for all their clothes and gear.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> While Ford cars are actually quite good these days, I think focus is a bit TOO small especially if you have kids. If you get something too small now, you'll be tempted at your next replacement to get something too big to compensate.


Our other car is a van, so if I need to schlep kids, luggage and pets, I just drive that. I drive it minimally as it is not very fuel efficient. Mostly, we use the van for work related to our rental properties. 

The small benz I have now is quite small and for local car trips we all fit comfortably. We are taking the kids to the dealership tonight to test drive the Focus with all of us to make sure we all fit comfortably.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

I have been researching maintenance issues with our particular model and year of Benz. Overall the car seems to have minimal issues (except for our specific vehicle), however oil changes and maintenance can only be done by the dealership. Parts are difficult to source for non- Benz dealerships. 

Other drivers are claiming that even if they can get oil changes and regular maintenance done elsewhere, they still have to go to the MB dealership to have the computer reset - apparently some dealerships charge upwards of $350 to do this. 

Regular maintenance (oil change and various checks) seems to cost around $500 per maintenance visit. Since we drive very few kms each year, our maintenance visits are more than 12 months apart. 

*I have come to the conclusion that this car is my worst financial decision ever*. 

We always had a Benz when I was growing up and they were such well engineered, reliable cars. Clearly the Benz of my younger years and the Benz of today are very different vehicles. 

So, the question still remains, do I cut my losses or stick it out with the Benz?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Dana said:


> ...however oil changes and maintenance can only be done by the dealership. Parts are difficult to source for non- Benz dealerships.... they still have to go to the MB dealership to have the computer reset - apparently some dealerships charge upwards of $350 to do this. Regular maintenance (oil change and various checks) seems to cost around $500 per maintenance visit.


Based on the above quotes, I think keeping the Benz is going to cost you more over the long run than replacing it with a cheaper car. Don't worry about "sunk costs," just cut your losses and move on.

I would reconsider the Focus, though -- I think you should research the ratings for new and lightly used models that you would consider before making a decision.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

To me the Fusion is WAY better value for the money. But the OP seems to have her mind made up.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> To me the Fusion is WAY better value for the money. But the OP seems to have her mind made up.


The Fusion's reliability and general ratings are also higher than those of the Focus.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> To me the Fusion is WAY better value for the money. But the OP seems to have her mind made up.


Here is some of our reasoning for the Focus:

*the 2011 model is cheaper than the 2010 model. This is because the 2012 Focus is being completely re-styled and re-designed. It is being re-launched at a slightly premium price. Ford is taking advantage of economies of scale by making all Focuses the same in all countries with 80% of the same parts to take advantage of volume. This means that the 2011 model is not very popular (many people are waiting) and there are some serious deals to be had

*Due to above, we have negotiated many free upgrades to ensure that we have all the options that we benefit from currently in the Benz- plus a few extra

*we have negotiated oil changes

*the Focus just made a top 10 list (might be Globe and Mail?) of cars hated by mechanics because they require so little repair/maintenance

*insurance is comparable and gas will be cheaper because it is not premium. 

*Parts are common and readily available which means we will have options when shopping around for work/maintenance.

Clearly, we are not the best decision makers when it comes to vehicle purchases, so I appreciate everybody's input and experience. 

I also appreciate having our rationale challenged - if only I had posted here before we bought the Benz!


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Dana said:


> Here is some of our reasoning for the Focus:
> *the Focus just made a top 10 list (might be Globe and Mail?) of cars hated by mechanics because they require so little repair/maintenance


I'm willing to believe that the Focus's quality has improved, but it is still listed as "average" by Protegez-Vous for reliability (three stars out of a possible five). I liked my Focus, but there were so many recalls (13 in 2 years) that it spent almost as much time at the dealer's garage as it did in mine. The car itself was reliable for the two years I owned it, but the recalls didn't inspire confidence. But my Focus was a 2001 or 2002; the newer models are probably better.

The funny thing about the Toyota recalls earlier this year is that they made the news precisely because product recalls are so rare with Toyota and Honda; with most American cars, recalls are a fact of life and you come to expect them.

Everyone has different priorities with a car. My priority is to have reliable transportation and a minimum of headaches and repairs. Having owned a mix of European, American, and Japanese cars over the past 30 years, I've settled on Toyotas and Hondas as my vehicles of choice; I drove my last Honda for 402,000 kilometers before selling it to a family who put another 200,000 km on it before they sold it on to someone else. I'm currently driving a Toyota Matrix and apart from having to spend too much on tires I've had no troubles with it over the past five years.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Since the Focus is being beaten down so much here  I'd like to say that, for what's it's worth, I've owned and driven a 2000 Ford Focus for the last 10 years and have been absolutely happy with it.
It's also accomodated our family of 4 nicely (it's been our only car).
On several occasions, it's been driven for over 1,000 miles on a trip (trips between US & Canada).
In my opinion, maintenance has been pretty close to what could be expected from a car that's driven every day for work, vacation travel and general around-town trips every day.
Oil changes and tire rotation at the dealership are $59.99.
There have been some recalls, which the dealer replaced without any gripes.
Break pads and shoes replaced once, tires replaced twice during this 10 year period.
The only major expense has been replacing a broken planetary gear in the the trans once.

I understand that you are considering a 2011 model so doesn't really compare with the one I have - I mean, a lot of things change in 11 years.
And yes, the Focus doesn't have the same room as an Impala, doesn't have the same snob effect as a Bents or the same power as a BMW.
But, for us, it's been working out nicely as a family vehicle for 10 years, and amen to another 10.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

brad said:


> Depends on the size of your family of course. I know a family of four (two adults and two young kids) who drive a Honda Fit and are perfectly happy with it -- it even has enough room for them on vacations; they can fit four bikes on a roof rack and the trunk space in back is plenty big enough for all their clothes and gear.


Indeed. I don't understand the people who have one young child and decide they need an SUV for the room.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

brad said:


> The funny thing about the Toyota recalls earlier this year is that they made the news precisely because product recalls are so rare with Toyota and Honda; with most American cars, recalls are a fact of life and you come to expect them.


This is so true and the reason I bought Toyota stock during the hype. I'm not into Toyotas but I know NA Hondas are not what they used to be and priced up on reputation, but it's marketing and they are still among the best

The Ford Fuzion _read Mazda Fuzion_ is a very nice car. Ford buying most of Mazda is what saved them imo

I'm not that into Ford but I always hear good things about their European cars. I just did some reading and Ford is discontinuing their NA Focus in 2012 and debuting the European Focus here. This is very good news and I can only hope that others will follow. NA versions of vehicles are always watered down to say the least


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## ashby corner (Jun 15, 2009)

*make your own used car...*

picture it: Ottawa, 2006.

My 1997 Cavalier (with no AC) was getting too hot to drive anymore.

So, we thought...hmmm...we really, really, really want an Accord with leather guts. To buy a 2/3 year old one was around 22K (at the time), with payments north of $500/month.

So, we did the unthinkable: we leased. With a plan to buy it out at the end.

Through 4 years of lease-hood, there was not one single problem with the car. None.

At the end of the lease, I transferred 13.5K to Honda Canada to buy the car. The dealership was frothing at the mouth to get their hands on my Accord, but I told the guy "no dice, dude". We built our own used car. And it's awesome.

in doing the math, I figure the cost of the lease was about 600 MORE than what I would have spent if I had just financed it over 4 years (which would have been too tight wrt cash flow).

So, now...4 years later.

2006 Accord. 70000km, dealer maintained.
I paid 13.5K for it.
The plan is to have it for another 10 years.

If a 97 Cavalier can last for 9 years, an Accord will be able to last for 14.

what could go wrong?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Dana said:


> Here is some of our reasoning for the Focus:
> 
> *the Focus just made a top 10 list (might be Globe and Mail?) of cars hated by mechanics because they require so little repair/maintenance


I tried to find you Top 10 List and I think you may have confused the Focus with the Mazda Fusion. I found this list on every link I clicked so far

All Honda/Toyota plus one Subbie and the Fusion. Subaru Impreza is actually the used car I have had my eyes set on for awhile.. but my Honda Accord just won't die. I could probably put water in the engine at this point (people have)


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