# In BC 4 in 10 people $200 away from being unable to pay bills



## Chica (Jan 19, 2016)

I heard this on the news today and saw it's on Global's website too:

https://globalnews.ca/news/3962951/british-columbia-household-debt-mnp/

In BC 4 in 10 people are $200 away from not being able to pay their bills. I'm surprised it's only 4 out of 10. I would have thought 6 or 7 might be more accurate. 

There's a high cost of living in BC. I constantly struggle and I don't have outstanding debt. I'm no longer able to afford my own home and I found it stressful being a homeowner anyway. My rent takes up half my income and I'm lucky. Most people its closer to 80% of their income goes to housing. I was surprised that people have $802 leftover after paying their bills. That's a dream for many people because that's their biweekly take home pay.

Is anyone else surprised that $200 separates many BCers from financial distress?


----------



## none (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm pretty tight too. Issue for me is that I'm a part time dad and have to pay for a 2 bedroom house by myself. Two can live as cheap as one??? Pffft! Not if one of them is 6!


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Chica said:


> Is anyone else surprised that $200 separates many BCers from financial distress?


Not everyone in BC lives in the Lower Mainland or Greater Victoria area. Once one gets east of Abottsford (or Chilliwack), or north of Parksville, the world changes. 

Anecdotally, I have a few relatives in their late 30s or early 40s in the GVR and they are not within $200 of financial distress either. There is life away from the centrold of that coastal swamp.


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

No surprise at all.

Seems like most of my friends are pretty much paycheque to paycheque. (How do other people deal with poor friends? Do you pay their way when you go out places?)

Although I'm pretty well off, I definitely regret selling my place. The market has done nothing but continue going up ever since.


----------



## Chica (Jan 19, 2016)

Maybe its the cost of living in a part of the country with milder winters. I wouldn't mind living on Vancouver Island. The problem is employment. It's hard enough finding work around the Greater Vancouver Area. Job opportunities even slimmer in other parts of the province. Perhaps the province average is 4 out of 10 being $200 away from paying bills, and maybe it's closer to 6 or 7 out of 10 for those who live in the Greater Vancouver and Fraser Valley areas. I regret selling my townhouse in 2004. Mostly cause it'd be paid off by now. I don't regret selling my last house aka the money pit.


----------



## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I would think 4 in 10 is low.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think it was a different study released yesterday, but 1/3rd of Canadians can't pay their bills each month without going deeper into debt.

People don't earn enough........simple as that.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Right, it can never be a spending problem...

It's not like they have cars, big screen tv's, toys, go out drinking or for dinner a couple times a week, they aren't living in houses they can't afford, in expensive cities, it's all about their paycheque, not choices. 

Just like the government, it's not a spending problem, it's the fact they aren't taxing people enough to balance the budget. They are, after all, leaving us with nearly half of what we earn these days.


----------



## Freedomeer (Jan 3, 2018)

Just a Guy said:


> Right, it can never be a spending problem...
> 
> It's not like they have cars, big screen tv's, toys, go out drinking or for dinner a couple times a week, they aren't living in houses they can't afford, in expensive cities, it's all about their paycheque, not choices.
> 
> Just like the government, it's not a spending problem, it's the fact they aren't taxing people enough to balance the budget. They are, after all, leaving us with nearly half of what we earn these days.


I would agree to all of this. The problem with my generation is we have a short memory. We leave our parents house wanting everything that they had when we leave. Well, we forget what it was like growing up. We forget how little our parents had. How everything that they have now is a culmination of grit / saving and hard work. When growing up, we didn't have big TV's, cable, new bikes. Everything was second hand. It took my parents 30 years of hard work to get where they got to. So, when the next generation leaves, needs a $1000 pocket computer (aka cell phone) that costs $80 a month. Then a large house, and a car....forgets that your mom took you on the bus while growing up, and let alone at least several thousand dollars worth of new clothes a year, but when the budget doesn't work...I need more money. They forget that they wore second hand clothing, got second hand toys, because your parents had a mortgage that was at 15%, and that their was no more money to be had. They forget that their dad was up every morning delivering papers for more money to get things to work out, while working full time. Then they leave...I deserve it all! 

I find it hard to believe all the news stories. When I hear people I know who make 30k, but need to get gel nails every week with hair extensions...no **** you will be poor. It is a not a lack of money, it is a complete lack of priorities.


----------



## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

Just a Guy said:


> Right, it can never be a spending problem...
> 
> It's not like they have cars, big screen tv's, toys, go out drinking or for dinner a couple times a week, they aren't living in houses they can't afford, in expensive cities, it's all about their paycheque, not choices.
> 
> Just like the government, it's not a spending problem, it's the fact they aren't taxing people enough to balance the budget. They are, after all, leaving us with nearly half of what we earn these days.


Exactly. Neverrrrr a tax problem. Not in the the BC workers paradise. This book and it's title has never been more relevant:

Tax Me I'm Canadian: The Taxpayer's Guide to Your Money and How Politicians Spend It


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Shopping malls are busy. Banks are making record profits. Automobile showrooms are busy. Fast food joints are jammed.

People need to look in the mirror, take responsibility for themselves, and stop spending future earnings/money they do not have.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Indeed, there is no lack of rampant consumerism anywhere that I have seen. Most of those that are $200 away from going in the red have no budgetary discipline.... minimum wage workers and those genuinely low income aside. There are genuinely low income people who are struggling to make ends meet, but it shouldn't be the middle class.


----------



## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

$200 is a really small amount of money, that is crazy... but the lower mainland is it's own reality these days.


----------



## Freedomeer (Jan 3, 2018)

ian said:


> Shopping malls are busy. Banks are making record profits. Automobile showrooms are busy. Fast food joints are jammed.
> 
> People need to look in the mirror, take responsibility for themselves, and stop spending future earnings/money they do not have.


Don't forget how easy it is to buy stuff online! Pay Amazon $70 a year to make it easier to buy things from them! It is brilliant on their end. People need to buy more from Amazon to justify the purchase of prime.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’ve got a lot of low income tenants. They all have smart phones, so do their kids. Only my oldest child has a cell phone. Their places are also full of cheap junk, not what I’d consider a necessity by any means.


----------



## kac147 (Jan 12, 2018)

I have heard from the Apple employees that lots of people are changing their iPhones once the new ones are released. One of the employees told me that a lady had an iPhone 8 and when the iPhone X was released, she went to get the new one. The employee told the lady that the iPhone 8 was still working perfectly and it was so new. However, the lady still wanted to get the new one.

I think we have too many fancy products (and expensive) nowadays.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

We have a bunch of idiots that measure their social status by having the latest and best, no matter what. An iPhone 6, or even a 4, is still perfectly acceptable.


----------



## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

kac147 said:


> I have heard from the Apple employees that lots of people are changing their iPhones once the new ones are released. One of the employees told me that a lady had an iPhone 8 and when the iPhone X was released, she went to get the new one. The employee told the lady that the iPhone 8 was still working perfectly and it was so new. However, the lady still wanted to get the new one.
> 
> I think we have too many fancy products (and expensive) nowadays.


That is ridiculous... they came out a couple of weeks apart, were announced at the same time, and have a lot of the same functionality.... how shortsighted would you have to be, to buy a ~$800 phone that you plan to replace in less than a month.


----------



## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

AltaRed said:


> We have a bunch of idiots that measure their social status by having the latest and best, no matter what. An iPhone 6, or even a 4, is still perfectly acceptable.


Not with planned obsolescence. I upgraded from a 5S to an 8 last month and it was borderline unusable by the time I upgraded.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> I’ve got a lot of low income tenants. They all have smart phones, so do their kids. Only my oldest child has a cell phone. Their places are also full of cheap junk, *not what I’d consider a necessity by any means*.


 ... yes it is according to them until they get hit by the bus while watching their phone crossing a light or rear ending someone else because they need to be "connected" 24-7 with all their friends and fans plus the office. 

And meanwhile Apple, FaceBook, Twitter, etc. needs to be more innovative to get the next gens all "addicted" to whatever gadgets or app or hightech they come up with and plenty of jobs in the mental/addiction health field. All is good.

Funny enough, cellphones no longer cause brain cancers.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

CalgaryPotato said:


> Not with planned obsolescence. I upgraded from a 5S to an 8 last month and it was borderline unusable by the time I upgraded.


I suppose... My spouse was using a 4 until this past month. Point is devices remain usable for many years and new devices just a few versions back are very cheap. I'd agree I wouldn't want to go further back than a 6 or 6S at this point and only if very cheap.

The point for this thread is really that those on super thin budgets can get by nicely with less expensive toys.


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I think there's a difference between middle class people going into debt over toys, and regular people making $12-20 an hour. I'm not saying the former group isn't a big problem, but more people I know fall into the latter group. 

I do think there is some detachment in a forum like this, because people here generally make higher incomes and are more likely to associate with other high income people. So when they read a story like this, they just assume the problem is middle class people overspending.

Also, wages in BC tend to be a bit lower than Alberta and Ontario.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

It is the way it has to be based on our money system.

For money to come into circulation it has to be borrowed If someone has $500,000 for retirement savings somewhere there is debt of $500,000. 

Then you have Trudeau giving away Canadian money to the world putting Canadian citizens into debt.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Indeed, life is a bigger struggle for those making $12-20/hr, but a family of 4 with two income earners at $15-20/hr should not be on the precipice if they budgeted well (living downtown Vancouver notwithstanding). That is what the Skytrain is for.


----------



## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

nathan79 said:


> I think there's a difference between middle class people going into debt over toys, and regular people making $12-20 an hour. I'm not saying the former group isn't a big problem, but more people I know fall into the latter group.
> 
> I do think there is some detachment in a forum like this, because people here generally make higher incomes and are more likely to associate with other high income people. So when they read a story like this, they just assume the problem is middle class people overspending.
> 
> Also, wages in BC tend to be a bit lower than Alberta and Ontario.


Poor is always a relative term.... but even getting to the very low incomes, but not homeless levels, you still get a lot of people with poorly prioritized spending. 

But I agree that I always find this forum to be a trip, how many people have clearly never even considered not having enough money in their life. I'll never forget the sob story about the regular who came to Canada with nothing but the clothes on his back... oh and a measly $100K in cash.

That is an understatement about wages, wages in BC are about 2/3rds of Alberta's at best, when paired with property prices that can be 10 times more it makes for a messed up situation.


----------



## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

AltaRed said:


> I suppose... My spouse was using a 4 until this past month. Point is devices remain usable for many years and new devices just a few versions back are very cheap. I'd agree I wouldn't want to go further back than a 6 or 6S at this point and only if very cheap.
> 
> The point for this thread is really that those on super thin budgets can get by nicely with less expensive toys.


Very true... I wouldn't recommend Apple as the smart devices for anyone on a limited budget. Much better bang for your buck out there.


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I agree that spending; and people's expectations of lifestyle; are a big part of the problem. 

But the income tax bite on low-income persons is also a part of it. And in selected geographic ares, the cost of housing.


----------



## none (Jan 15, 2013)

I think the majority of people in this thread are massively detached from reality. I belong to a housing facebook group and it's amazing how many people are struggling to just afford a place. 

Sure, there are people who foolishly live beyond their means, both rich and poor but there are far more people who are legitimately struggling and trying to make ends meet while maintaining life of some sort. Believe it or not, some level of discretionary funds for entertainment are just as important as being able to afford food and rent.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

none said:


> I think the majority of people in this thread are massively detached from reality. I belong to a housing facebook group and it's amazing how many people are struggling to just afford a place.
> 
> Sure, there are people who foolishly live beyond their means, both rich and poor but there are far more people who are legitimately struggling and trying to make ends meet while maintaining life of some sort. Believe it or not, some level of discretionary funds for entertainment are just as important as being able to afford food and rent.


 My bet they are still able to live like kings compared to people a 100 plus years ago. It was not that long ago everyone had to use outhouses & never had running water.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

none said:


> I think the majority of people in this thread are massively detached from reality. I belong to a housing facebook group and it's amazing how many people are struggling to just afford a place.
> 
> Sure, there are people who foolishly live beyond their means, both rich and poor but there are far more people who are legitimately struggling and trying to make ends meet while maintaining life of some sort. Believe it or not, some level of discretionary funds for entertainment are just as important as being able to afford food and rent.


For sure, some enjoyment of life is necessary for good mental health, and especially to give kids a decent start to life. Just as there are people who are budgeting wisely and prudently and barely getting by, there is a significant group of the middle class that don't have a clue. I know some folks in both groups.


----------



## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

none said:


> I think the majority of people in this thread are massively detached from reality. I belong to a housing facebook group and it's amazing how many people are struggling to just afford a place.
> 
> Sure, there are people who foolishly live beyond their means, both rich and poor but there are far more people who are legitimately struggling and trying to make ends meet while maintaining life of some sort. Believe it or not, some level of discretionary funds for entertainment are just as important as being able to afford food and rent.


A few years ago my daughter lived in the the lower mainland where she was born and raised. All she did was work to pay the rent and regular bills never much left at the end of the month. Finally she moved to northern BC and found she really had a life cost of living was reasonable wages were fine and plenty of activities. Since then she has moved to AB northern. Costs for most things are not bad except utilities very expensive.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Funny how people associate recreation with money. There are hundreds of things to do in every city for free. There is no “need” for cell phones, cable TV, internet access, etc. 

The library has internet and computer access. A landline is practically free these days. No one is chained to living in Vancouver or Toronto. These are all choices people make. Not everyone deserves to own a home, or cars, or that snowmobile, ATV, new cell phone, etc. 

Here are plenty of ways to live on less money. It may not be the way you “want” to live, but there usually is a way to get close. 

Having lived on literally nothing for several years, I quickly learned the difference between “wants” and “needs”. 

It’s funny how so many people today can’t think of ways to exist without money. In Vancouver you have beaches, Stanley park, festivals, they symphony of fire, all sorts of things to do that won’t cost money...

I can come up with similar examples in most major cities in Canada as well as a lot of small towns. Many cities also give free access passes to city owned facilities for people with low income. From what I’ve heard talking to people who work for the municipal governments, these programs are rarely used.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

JAG, it is one thing to be critical of adults who can indeed deal with the points you articulate (and I agree), but this is not the case for families. Understand that families with kids going to school have essentially mandatory monetary expenses, including supplies, field trips and the like that if denied, do little for self-esteem, confidence and mental health. I am way less concerned about mature adults than I am children.


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Funny how people associate recreation with money. There are hundreds of things to do in every city for free. There is no “need” for cell phones, cable TV, internet access, etc.
> 
> The library has internet and computer access. A landline is practically free these days. No one is chained to living in Vancouver or Toronto. These are all choices people make. Not everyone deserves to own a home, or cars, or that snowmobile, ATV, new cell phone, etc.


That's fine... but what are you going to do at 8 pm on a Friday night, that doesn't cost money? Or when it's snowing/raining, which in Vancouver is practically 8 months of the year.

Actually, most people I know don't even live downtown (the rent alone would take most of their wages), so just getting to Vancouver to do something for free would be a $9 Skytrain ticket. As far as getting to a friend's house, transit in the suburbs is pretty unreliable and infrequent, so you pretty much need a car in a lot of areas.

That leaves staying at home, playing cards or video games, watching Netflix... wait, Netflix isn't free either, and you need internet for that as well. Anyway, those things are all fine, but they can definitely get boring after a while.

It's much easier to find things to do in the summer when it's not raining and it's actually light out in the evening. Yeah, there are some free activities, if you can get to them.

I also find that my friends are all working different shifts, which often includes weekends, so it's hard to even plan activities.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

When I lived in Vancouver it rained all the time. Part of life. You could sit inside and wait for nice weather, which may only last a couple of hours before it starts raining again, or you went out in the rain and did stuff. 

I’m sorry to see that you live in the only place on earth where there is no place to walk, no playgrounds, no place to play catch, soccer, street hockey, baseball, or do anything non-electronic. What’s wrong with cards, board games, talking and telling stories? How our grandparents ever survived is a mystery. 

This generation has always had people telling them what to do, everything structured, no sense of creativity whatsoever. I remember racing toothpicks during spring melt down the gutters, it was a ton of fun. My kids still do it, but none of their friends have ever done it. 

No one reads books anymore I guess. Builds a snowman (we used to build them on top of fences or in trees to make people wonder). 

Of course it’s easier to come up with excuses as to why something can’t be done than it is to come up with things that can be done. 

As for kids in school, with mine I found ways to cut back on things for me so I could afford the things for the kids. Schools are not taking 10’s of thousands of dollars. I also explained to my kids that they couldn’t have everything, that choices had to be made. Unfortunately, many people never learned that. They want it all and they want it now. They deserve it.


----------



## none (Jan 15, 2013)

^ LOL, "GET OFF MY LAWN"


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

Now days parents throw money away on organized sports/activities, designer clothes, cell phones & college education.

When I was a kid my friends & I figured out how to play sports without spending a lot of money.

Did not care if our shoes were Nike. 

Never needed a cell phone to protect us for boredom. 

When we became older we figured out how to pay for college without the bank of mom & dad.


----------



## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Just A Guy... I do/have done all of those things. Absolutely nothing wrong with them.

It seems like you're over-analyzing. I mean, you technically don't need electricity either. Why even have books for that matter... no one had those 1000 years ago.

Maybe people have expectations in line with the culture/time in which they live? You can say that people should be happy climbing trees and skipping stones for entertainment, but don't be surprised when people are skeptical.

Anyway, I'm not really complaining. I'm open to ideas for when I hang out with my poor friends.


----------



## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Seems ungracious for those with a few extra bucks to moralize about the the lifestyle choices of those without. 

-----

Nathan, some casinos in Calgary offer cheap meals. My breakfast group used to go for the $6.99 complete breakfast with coffee ... then they switched to the place that offers a $2.99 breakfast. OFC, you have to avoid gambling but maybe there is something similar in Vancouver. . 

Places like Chilis offer an all-you-can eat soup and salad lunch for pretty cheap - they'll get you on the drinks but if you are careful you can get in and out for $15. 

One of my buddies goes to the cheap movie theatres almost every week. 

Many physical activities are generally cheap - squash, tennis, skating etc. Just have to avoid the expensive ones like hockey and skiing. 

These are just some of the things that my frugal buddies do. They do cost money - practically everything does in a country like Canada in the winter - but you can often find an hour or two of fun for less than $20.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

This thread reminds me of the theory, that poor retirees don't need any help because they are accustomed to being poor, that was thrown around by some during the CPP debate.

If low income workers somehow manage to not spend all their money.........is the problem of stagnant wages and wealth/income gaps solved ?


----------



## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

There are a lot of families in the lower mainland struggling every month, its fine to suggest this is free and that is free but free only goes so far.
Many of these families rent and are only a month or two away from having to consider looking for somewhere else to live that's a huge pressure to carry raising kids. School events cost money, sports cost money, social events cost money and many just don't have the means working for low wages or two jobs. There is a large gap between the haves and have not's.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> .. I do think there is some detachment in a forum like this, because people here generally make higher incomes and are more likely to associate with other high income people. So when they read a story like this, they just assume the problem is middle class people overspending ...


Hard to tell which is winning ... on one hand, some seem to be detached. On the other hand, it's been at least three decades of shaking my head over the spending priorities of those around me.

It was something like 1998 when my sister told me her co-worker had been complaining about not being able to make mortgage payments but that didn't seem to matter much when her co-worker was thrilled with the two new cars, bought with almost nothing down and low interest.


Cheers


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I think the situation is likely as common sense would dictate it would be.

People who earn a good income and owe a lot of debt or are broke all the time are overspending.

People who earn a low income are more likely to be struggling because of the low income than because they are overspending.


----------



## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

You can't always magically rewind the world to what it was 30 years ago. You can send your kids outside to play, but they are going to come back bored when there are no other kids to play with, because organized activities have replaced that a lot of that free play. You can go back to hosting things at your house, rather than going out with friends, but then you are going to have to hope that your friends reciprocate because that isn't the norm anymore, and so on...

Also libraries are an amazing resource, but even living inner city in Canada, it's a half an hour bus ride each way to get to one from my house. Not exactly a practical way to use the internet which again, isn't exactly an optional resource for life in 2018.

I agree that there are a lot of free activities, but I wouldn't say people under use those. Especially here in Calgary free events often end up with so many thousands of people they are unbearable (lilac festival, canada day, etc.)


----------



## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Freedomeer said:


> I would agree to all of this. The problem with my generation is we have a short memory. We leave our parents house wanting everything that they had when we leave. Well, we forget what it was like growing up. We forget how little our parents had. How everything that they have now is a culmination of grit / saving and hard work. When growing up, we didn't have big TV's, cable, new bikes. Everything was second hand. It took my parents 30 years of hard work to get where they got to. So, when the next generation leaves, needs a $1000 pocket computer (aka cell phone) that costs $80 a month. Then a large house, and a car....forgets that your mom took you on the bus while growing up, and let alone at least several thousand dollars worth of new clothes a year, but when the budget doesn't work...I need more money. They forget that they wore second hand clothing, got second hand toys, because your parents had a mortgage that was at 15%, and that their was no more money to be had. They forget that their dad was up every morning delivering papers for more money to get things to work out, while working full time. Then they leave...I deserve it all!
> 
> I find it hard to believe all the news stories. When I hear people I know who make 30k, but need to get gel nails every week with hair extensions...no **** you will be poor. It is a not a lack of money, it is a complete lack of priorities.


When I was 14 - I couldn't have nor afford another phone line for my room.
When I was 14, working part-time already,_ for 2 years,_ - I couldn't have nor afford to have a TV in my room.
We lived in a 1,000 sq. ft. home for a family of four. That seemed like plenty of room when I was young.
My parents drove two old cars. They had good paying jobs.

So when I see 10-year-olds throwing a fit because they don't have the latest iPhone; 14-year-olds complaining they're only going "South" for a winter vacation with their parents for one week; 6-year-olds screaming at the top their lungs because they don't get their tablet to ride with in the backseat of their parents SUV - I shake my head.

No doubt there are many parents and 30- and 40-somethings out there keeping spending and delaying gratification under control but I doubt that is the majority. 

Yes, lack of rising incomes is an issue but there are absolutely some in my generation (Gen X) and the next (Gen Y) that have a huge sense of entitlement and are totally disconnected from the costs of things.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Maybe, if all these people really can afford organized sports, going out because it’s the new norm, figure out that the new norm isn’t working, maybe you’ll find others outside playing, people inviting you over, etc. 

Of course we’ll probably see people demanding that the government step in and provide organized sports for their kids and a pension so they can go to the bar, and maybe a chauffeur so they don’t have to travel 30 minutes on a bus to go play video games and watch cat videos. 

I do worry about how my kids will ever survive. No cell phones, they go outside, they know how to cook, when something breaks they learn how to repair it, they have hobbies and imagination that doesn’t require electricity...it’s so cavemanish. 

Not only that, but we don’t even live in a city. It’s 30 minutes to get to school, shopping and the library. Funny thing is, they tend to do all the things in one trip. They actually plan things out, manage their time, prioritize and, if they can’t do it all when they want, they make another plan. They don’t have their own car, they have to schedule around others to help them. If others don’t have time, guess what they need to come up with another solution or wait. 

Their biggest compaint isn’t “I’m bored”, it’s “I don’t have enough time to do all the things I want to do”. 

They are expected to help around the house everyday. They do everything up to an age appropriate level, even cooking dinner for the family. They know what things cost, as they have to come shop for groceries and understand that there is a limit to what we can afford. 

They’re so primitive. I’d probably be up for child abuse charges not giving them an Xbox, Netflix, big screen tv, etc. Even worse, if they want something like an iPad, they have to buy it themselves with their own money. If they break it, they need to pay for the repairs or do without. 

Of course, they are all at the top of heir class, in advanced programs, and are very good athletes. People always comment about their work ethic, their leadership, their creativity...

Just imagine where they could have been had I let them zone out and become addicted to electronics like their peers...

Btw, dinner tonight is loaded baked potato soup. Cost to make a huge pot (enough for two meals for six people) from scratch is about $7. Didn’t make it to be cheap, made it because everyone likes it.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Being frugal is saying no to yourself all the time. I know I wouldn't like that.


----------



## 30seconds (Jan 11, 2014)

The difference between frugal and cheap are defined by the person. Everyone has a different opinion. 

I think I am frugal but I bought a coffee at McDonalds today and lunch! :O 

Expectations vs reality. I agree with earlier comments saying that kid have a short memory and forget the hard times that some parents went through to get where they are. My parents told me about not eating out at restaurants or not travelling so they could pay off their mortgage. I imagine a lot of parents do not talk to their kids about this or anything to do w


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

sags said:


> Being frugal is saying no to yourself all the time. I know I wouldn't like that.


And you don't think that may have something to do with you always wanting money from others? "Tax the rich, UBI, raise wages..." I don't want to have to live within my means...not when others have more means, that's not fair.


----------



## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

sags said:


> I think the situation is likely as common sense would dictate it would be.
> 
> People who earn a good income and owe a lot of debt or are broke all the time are overspending.
> 
> People who earn a low income are more likely to be struggling because of the low income than because they are overspending.


This. 

I remember struggling to make ends meet when I was the breadwinner for a young family. Believe me, we weren’t wasting money on new vehicles, toys and a luxurious home. Ours was an income problem, not a spending problem. Our situation improved when I got a better job.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

A lot of people it does not matter how much money they make they will always be poor. Those that do not work for money but are given money the odds are very high they will always be poor & wanting more money.

A huge problem I see with a lot of people is they spend money to buy things to promote status they are not using a rational standard to judge their esteem. 

Since esteem is a value judgement the degree to ones esteem will hing on weather or not the standard they use is rational or not. As with anything there can only be one best of anything there can only be one best standard. If one uses how many fancy cars one has compared to someone else their confidence will yo-yo. 

I use mans biological distinguishable trait " reason" to gauge my esteem. Which is why I try to have a strong commitment to reason.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

olivaw said:


> This.
> 
> I remember struggling to make ends meet when I was the breadwinner for a young family. Believe me, we weren’t wasting money on new vehicles, toys and a luxurious home. Ours was an income problem, not a spending problem. Our situation improved when I got a better job.


So, you changed your situation? Some seem to suggest that is unfair. One should be allowed to not have to seek a better paying job, rather have the wages adjusted to make things more "fair". 

When I was dead broke and unable to work, I turns to investing and using my brains instead of my body. I also had to make tough decisions until things turned around because it didn't happen overnight. I had to play for the long term, not the short term, while still surviving the short term.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> Being frugal is saying no to yourself all the time. I know I wouldn't like that.


That is just being "cheap" if you say no all the time. 
I thought frugal was more like saying no when paying more doesn't make sense for your needs.


----------



## robfordlives (Sep 18, 2014)

Chica said:


> Maybe its the cost of living in a part of the country with milder winters. I wouldn't mind living on Vancouver Island. The problem is employment. It's hard enough finding work around the Greater Vancouver Area. Job opportunities even slimmer in other parts of the province. Perhaps the province average is 4 out of 10 being $200 away from paying bills, and maybe it's closer to 6 or 7 out of 10 for those who live in the Greater Vancouver and Fraser Valley areas. I regret selling my townhouse in 2004. Mostly cause it'd be paid off by now. I don't regret selling my last house aka the money pit.


I'm honestly surprised. We had 12 responses for a basic administrator type position that in Alberta usually gets 300 applicants. There are tons of jobs to go around in Vancouver and not enough people


----------



## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

none said:


> I think the majority of people in this thread are massively detached from reality. I belong to a housing facebook group and it's amazing how many people are struggling to just afford a place.
> 
> Sure, there are people who foolishly live beyond their means, both rich and poor but there are far more people who are legitimately struggling and trying to make ends meet while maintaining life of some sort.


*+1*



olivaw said:


> Seems ungracious for those with a few extra bucks to moralize about the the lifestyle choices of those without.


*+1*


Some of the rants posted in this thread reminded me of Jason Chaffetz, a political hack in the US Congress (now resigned). He was interviewed on CNN about the proposed healthcare cuts under Trumpcare. He suggested that poor people should skip their next iPhone in order to afford health insurance. No sense of proportion whatsoever.


----------



## Chica (Jan 19, 2016)

robfordlives said:


> I'm honestly surprised. We had 12 responses for a basic administrator type position that in Alberta usually gets 300 applicants. There are tons of jobs to go around in Vancouver and not enough people


I can't afford to live in Vancouver - not that I'd want to anyway. I have had a couple of jobs there in the past but not since the late 80s. 

I was out of work for a long time. I kept a spreadsheet of places I was applying to. It was over 1500 before I got a job offer for a maternity leave coverage 3 days a week as an office clerk. It didn't pay my bills but it helped me not go through my savings as quickly. When that woman returned to work it took me about another 4 months to find work, probably less than 200 applications out, and its for another 1 year position but not maternity leave coverage, just restructuring. Possibility of extending after the year and I really hope it happens. Its a decent company, I like the people, I like the work, and it's less than 10 minutes commute. And I'm not dipping into my retirement savings at all right now. Even though 12 people might apply for that admin job, 11 people are still going to be looking for work. Maybe all 12 if the hiring person didn't like any of them. I was applying for admin work and retail. Anything. Ageism is alive and well in Canada. It's really hard to find work after 40 and it's been many years since I hit 40. And a few more since the next milestone. There might be tons of jobs around Vancouver but it's not easy to get hired to one of them.

I just consider myself lucky that I'm not $200 away from not being able to pay my bills.


----------



## tavogl (Oct 1, 2014)

I showed this to a group of friends, all professionals, engineers, accountants, IT, etc, out of 6 people in the group, 2 raised hands and said that they were "there" or that their situation was snowballing and getting more and more in debt. This is in the GVA area. They all own homes (mortgages...) it's scary that so many people who have mortgages can't pay their bills, and BOC is raising rates. Seems like a shitshow willl happen soon enough.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

tavogl said:


> it's scary that so many people who have mortgages can't pay their bills, and BOC is raising rates. Seems like a shitshow willl happen soon enough.


I think much of the blame lies with the BoC for keeping interest rates low for so long, and fueling this insane housing bubble. Even though they knew that people were recklessly taking on debt, the BoC kept making it cheaper to take loans. This has the effect of pushing up home prices, because people stop thinking about the total cost of the home, and instead start thinking "how much is the monthly payment" or "how much house can I buy for this monthly payment".

This reckless behaviour was encouraged by the BoC and their insanely low interest rates... now we have a nation addicted to debts. This also pushed up home prices and made them even less affordable, meaning that an entire generation (my generation, 20s and 30s) are locked out of owning a home -- it's _never_ going to happen for us.

But don't worry, I don't think the BoC will ever raise interest rates significantly. As soon as home prices start to tumble, the BoC will be forced to cut rates again to try and re-inflate the housing bubble.


----------



## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

I blame the feds for the house situation, they have made home buying a get rich quick thing for investors.
Buy a house hold for one year sell no tax.

The feds could change the rule and make it five years then we would have real families that want to be part of a community buying. 
I believe its investors driving the market beats playing stocks.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

james4beach said:


> But don't worry, I don't think the BoC will ever raise interest rates significantly. As soon as home prices start to tumble, the BoC will be forced to cut rates again to try and re-inflate the housing bubble.


 If you can borrow money @ 5% & make 10% on the borrowed money you will borrow money @ 5%, If you can borrow money @ 5% & can not make more then 5% you wont borrow money to invest.

Pension funds want higher interest rates, Lower rates would not be good for public pensions.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't understand how making something available makes them to blame. I wonder how people managed to survive before the government stepped in and outlawed everything that is even potentially dangerous in our lives. When does personal responsibility come into play? No one held a gun to people's heads to force them to borrow too much money. These same people will probably complain when the government doesn't allow them to borrow money. 

i suppose we need the government to ban everything that is potentially harmful and issue bubble wrap clothing for everyone.


----------



## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

The government destroys the money world.

In the US the government BS political correctness of forcing banks to lend to people with no jobs or income to buy homes was crazy going into the 07 high. Then allowing banks to bundle up bogus loans & sell them off was perhaps even crazier. 

After a lengthy bear market Glass Steagal or similar will return. Market manias when confidence high everyone over estimates ability to pay off loans which results in creative forms of leverage


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> I suppose... My spouse was using a 4 until this past month. Point is devices remain usable for many years and new devices just a few versions back are very cheap. I'd agree I wouldn't want to go further back than a 6 or 6S at this point and only if very cheap.
> 
> The point for this thread is really that those on super thin budgets can get by nicely with less expensive toys.


When I bought the 8 Plus in October, the Virgin rep offered to give me a 4S for free to use their service. A $40 battery replacement would have made it perfectly usable.


----------



## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Lots of people have a spending problem. Do people honestly think low interest rates will last forever. I can't help but wonder how many of those people that are $200 away from being able to pay their bills have new vehicles and nice "toys". We struggled for many years to pay bills and provide for our family. As time went on and we found we had a little extra every month we did not immediately look for a place to spend it. Sure, we had a spend occasionally but always tried to keep a moat for the lean times. When interest rates would drop and the bank said we could pay a lower mortgage payment, we would go to the bank and keep the payment (or slightly increase if we had extra cash) and shorten the term. Meanwhile, we would hear friends talk about upgrading a vehicle or camper and spending the savings as they now had lower mortgage payments. Nobody is managing your spending other than you.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The solution it to let the inevitable collapse of corporate capitalism happen and rebuild a more socially responsible society.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, we’ve all seen how well that worked.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Just a Guy said:


> Yeah, we’ve all seen how well that worked.


Socialism and its naive supporters always ignores human nature. From the eventual corruption of the government in charge, down to the loss of any incentives for individuals, it simply doesn't work. You only need to look as far as Venezuela. To the feeble minded it looks great on paper.

ltr


----------



## BoringInvestor (Sep 12, 2013)

lonewolf :) said:


> In the US the government BS political correctness of *forcing *banks to lend to people with no jobs or income to buy homes was crazy going into the 07 high. Then allowing banks to bundle up bogus loans & sell them off was perhaps even crazier.



What?


----------



## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> Socialism and its naive supporters always ignores human nature. From the eventual corruption of the government in charge, down to the loss of any incentives for individuals, it simply doesn't work. You only need to look as far as Venezuela. To the feeble minded it looks great on paper.
> 
> ltr


True - but there is a difference between socialism and social programs. Medicare, EI, OAS and welfare are examples of social programs that keep our mixed capitalistic system healthy. Government regulation is also needed to keep the system humming. IMO, these things prevent a Venezuelan style backlash.


----------

