# Who will win US election?



## Pluto

Regardless of who you think should win, who will win? 
And will it make a difference in finance or other areas of life? 

Republicans often say they are better at this and that - like business for instance. But someone some years ago checked S&P performance against each party and found the market did better when the Dems were in power. LOL. don't know itf that has changed.


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## mordko

Clinton. Republicans self destructed. And good stock performance does not equate to good economy. Stocks did great under Obama but the economy has sucked.


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## sags

Clinton in a landslide............unless Sanders and Trump hook up and form a third party. That could be interesting as there are a lot of disgruntled Americans these days.

Trump is a chameleon. He could learn to love Bernie. I don't think it could work the other way around though. Sanders seems to still have some principles and decency left.


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## AltaRed

Bernie is not in this to actually win the election. He is in it to create a political revolution and all he wants is for some of his principles to be part of the actual election platform and he might get a few things to stick...especially since Clinton has had to shift some to take away some of Bernie's momentum. America has been too much of a predatory animal....the wealthy and powerful feeding off everyone else. It is criminal for example, the lack of sufficient mandated vacation time and higher minimum wage.


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## fretwire

I think if Trump wins the republican nomination the democrats will win the presidency in a landslide of historical proportions. If democrats decide to, they can pull up so much crap about Trump they'll easily make him look like the little weasel that he is.


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## brad

I agree that Trump is unlikely to win (but stranger things have happened). But assuming Clinton wins, what's likely to happen is that people will vote even more Republicans into the House and Senate, ensuring another 4 or 8 years of little change since Clinton will be unable to enact most of her planned policies.


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## carverman

Whom ever wins and becomes President, the US needs to tighten up on gun ownership.

In Milwaukee Wi, a 26 year old black mother was shot in the back of the head and killed by her 2 yr old toddler in the back seat..without a car seat.
Apparently the handgun slid out from her boyfriend's holster (a security guard) placed under the seat, the kid saw it laying on the car floor and grabbed
it and started to play with it.The kid's grandmother was also in the car.

in Florida, the same thing happened but this time the mother managed to survive the gunshot.

A few months ago, a mother was shot dead by her toddler sitting in a shopping cart, who reached into the mother's purse, pulled out her loaded pistol
and shot her dead.

Can Trump, if elected President, save America from themselves?


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## tygrus

If you think just getting the presidency amounts to 'winning', thats the wrong way to think about it.

Trump has already 'won'. He blew up the GOP and will force it to reconcile now and stop electing bible thumpers. He will force the democrats to shift policy if they hold office. And he is the first candidate in the history of the US with no political experience to make it to that level, so he may have paved the way for an independent movement. He may even have cured the gridlock in govt.

That being said, I get chills up my spine when I hear Hillarys cackling...


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## carverman

tygrus said:


> If you think just getting the presidency amounts to 'winning', thats the wrong way to think about it.
> 
> Trump has already 'won'. He blew up the GOP and will force it to reconcile now and stop electing bible thumpers. He will force the democrats to shift policy if they hold office. And he is the first candidate in the history of the US with no political experience to make it to that level, so he may have paved the way for an independent movement. He may even have cured the gridlock in govt.
> 
> That being said, I get chills up my spine when I hear Hillarys cackling...


What's Hillary cackling about? IF she ever got to be President, she would be the first woman in their history to make it that far.

I just don't see it. Nothing against her personally , but I think America is looking for a strong leader that isn't afraid to mince his words when he criticizes somebody or something. 

Maybe he will bring action to where there is inaction..maybe he will bring justice where justice is needed..maybe ..just maybe...he could be "Captain America"? 

Too much "rot" already imbedded in their gov't..truth, justice and the NEW American way....do your job or "Your're Fired!" :biggrin:


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## mordko

Trump will have zero impact in terms of policies simply because he does not have any that he can stick to. In recent times he is the first candidate who got this far by openly promoting conspiracy theories. His support is way higher than it should be but still low (minority of a minority). Sanders on the other hand is the only openly socialist politician in the Senate and he has a policy to that effect. He is more dangerous.


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## Pluto

I think Trump will win, partly because no one thinks he will. He'll pick a running mate that blunts a lot of concerns about him. He's going to take the Dems by surprise and steal this from Hilary.


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## LBCfan

Regardless of who wins (and I think it will be POTUS Donny), the American people will lose.


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## olivaw

I think Hillary Clinton will win but I am not as confident as I was a few months ago. Trumps ability to attract votes is nothing short of remarkable.


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## mrPPincer

it's a scary prospect for sure

but it's possible that it was inevitable 

dem/rep is basically the same thing more or less & their sponsors (big biz/multinationals) had a system built for dumbing-down & manipulating the masses through total control of popular media (could be wrong but that's how I saw it).

Things have changed, popular media now has to scramble to keep up with social media.
They (popular media) were sloppy and weak already, and had to follow naturally to survive.

Perfect setup for a fascist to jump in.
I suspect the donald was as surprised as anyone on his extraordinary success.


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## carverman

mrPPincer said:


> *Perfect setup for a fascist to jump in.*
> I suspect the donald was as surprised as anyone on his extraordinary success.


So was Hitler in the early 30s.
The middle class may be diminishing in Amerika these days. The poor, the destitute and the working class are increasing.

Only the billionaires seem to have all the power. Big bizness controls them the same way they control big business. Scary in deed! 


> Donald Trump's sweep of five northeastern and mid-Atlantic states Tuesday night has *increased the odds that the billionaire businessman will be elected president in November*.





> Clinton, who won four of the five state primaries on Tuesday, still is the overwhelming favorite to succeed President Barack Obama with *odds of 1 to 3,* representing a 75 percent chance of winning.


It's a crap shoot...will it end up being a close one (won) with some state being picked for the "recount" as in
George W.Bush election?


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## Pluto

I learnt my lesson in the Carter - Reagan face off. Reagan was running around playing with six shooters and yakking about how he was going to take care of the commies and other trouble makers. They called him Ray-Guns in the media. I thought no one is going to elect this guy. He sounded like a Hollywood nut. Somehow I suspect Trump, in his own style is playing the same game as Reagan - the outraged Republican pointing fingers at the ***** Dems for letting America get in a sorry state and get pushed around by all those troublemakers. It tends to stir up a lot of people. Hilary better be ready for this guy cause he is going to try and make her look like a granny whose place is at home doing needle point.


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## sags

The Democrats are just beginning to roll out their political machine and they are very good at it, especially considering that most professionals in the advertising and movie industry support the Democrats.

The political advertising will be epic............considering all the ammunition that Trump has given them over the past decades.

Some facts about Trump that are less well known, but will soon be aired on television and radio all over the US.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...barrett-hurt-dantiono-blair-obrien-213835?o=3

If Trump wins he will have to overcome a very rough ride.


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## Eder

Hillary has no skeletons...err wait

Its a sad day in our universe that the most powerful country in the world yields such a moronic display. Maybe they can just cancel the election for a few years till someone with a clue appears.


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## Davis

I worry that some scandal will emerge around Clinton that will let Trump walk into the White House. Something like it turning out that she ripped off investors by letting her businesses go bankrupt, or being caught on tape making fun of people with disabilities, or advocating policies that would be classified as war crimes, or being caught telling one media outlet that she had not read a document hours after telling another that he had, or inviting her supporters to beat up people who heckle her, or having it turn out that she has products with her name on them manufactured overseas to take advantage of low wages. Something totally off the wall like that that the voters could not forgive Clinton for, and would cause them to rush out and elect Trump.


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## mordko

Eder said:


> Hillary has no skeletons...err wait
> 
> Its a sad day in our universe that the most powerful country in the world yields such a moronic display. Maybe they can just cancel the election for a few years till someone with a clue appears.


+1. Also, out of 320 million people the very best candidate apparently must have the same name as an earlier president. What are the chances? Pure coincidence, I am sure. She will get there by right.


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## andrewf

I think Hillary.

Prediction markets have it at ~66% probability Hillary, 36% Trump (it being more than 100% I think is due to spreads).

https://www.predictit.org/Market/1234/Who-will-win-the-2016-US-presidential-election

I think it is Hillary, and more than 66% probability, especially if facing off against Trump.


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## sags

If Donald Trump wins the Presidency, he will be the first businessman who has never held a political office before being elected as President.

There have been 4 past Presidents who never previously held a political office. Three were high ranking military officers and one was Secretary of Commerce.

Mark Cuban thinks he could easily win the Presidency and Kevin O'Leary thinks he could be elected PM. These guys don't think they need any experience because they are smarter than everyone else.

Carly Fioriona ran for the Senate and got soundly defeated, so she wants to move up to VP now, and of course there are lots of celebrities who think they could be President if they wanted the job.

I don't know why Ted Cruz picked Fiorina, although she might have been the only candidate with nothing better to do. Her business credentials are nothing to brag about either.

She was CEO of HP and ran it right into the ground. The value of the company dropped in half and 30,000 people lost their jobs. She was eventually terminated by the board.

There must be something in the expensive bottled water that rich people drink. No shortage of egos and entitlement among the rich and famous.


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## carverman

Pluto said:


> Somehow I suspect Trump, in his own style is playing the same game as Reagan - the outraged Republican pointing fingers at the ***** Dems for letting America get in a sorry state and get pushed around by all those troublemakers. It tends to stir up a lot of people. *Hilary better be ready for this guy cause he is going to try and make her look like a granny whose place is at home doing needle point.*


Trump represents corporate Amerika, as well as ******* America, which has a lot to lose if the wrong administration and President get into power.

We all know what happened when they installed a dodo (Dubya), who barely could public speak an was the perfect pigeon to get influenced by the powers that be, who represent the true election decision outcome, the electoral college in the US.

The popular vote for Clinton or Trump can swing either way on election night, but the true winner will be decided not by popular vote but by those that can determine if a particular candidate is best for the country. This political mechanism was put into place to avoid getting a dictator get into power. 

The US has a very large military and industrial military complex that creates a tremendous amount of employment. Sooner or later they seem to get involved in some foreign war that can also backfire on them..Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and perhaps some others.

Whether their involvement can be classified as meddling because of circumstance, or trying to change foreign affairs, is good or bad, they usually change the course of history of those countries and not necessarily in a good way. Throwing billions of US dollars at a military solution doesn't always work out for them. 

Trump has made it quite clear in his rhetorical speeches that he doesn't like the Muslim or Mexican immigrants. Going back in history in the late 30s, it seemed to be a similar situation in Germany. Whether history is bound to repeat itself or not, is difficult to predict. Certainly cooler heads will prevail this time and prevent another human calamity.


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## carverman

sags said:


> If Donald Trump wins the Presidency, he will be the first businessman who has never held a political office before being elected as President.


I'm sure most Americans won't hold that against him..it is what he can do for them. Lets face it the situation on the streets is getting worse and worse every year. Can it still be controlled? Hard to say, yes, the state governors and political powers can call in for re-enforcements..the military. 

Kent State, Selma, Watts, and now the mass shootings, some triggered by affiliation with subversive powers elsewhere. 



> Mark Cuban thinks he could easily win the Presidency and Kevin O'Leary thinks he could be elected PM. These guys don't think they need any experience because they are smarter than everyone else.


Mark is too busy making money..and Kevin is too busy making money as well. In order to run for these high ranking positions, they would have to relinquish direct control of their business interests. I doubt that either one is willing to give anyone else complete control, so it's just hot air. 



> Carly Fioriona ran for the Senate and got soundly defeated, so she wants to move up to VP now, and of course there are lots of celebrities who think they could be President if they wanted the job.
> 
> She was CEO of HP and ran it right into the ground. The value of the company dropped in half and 30,000 people lost their jobs. She was eventually terminated by the board.


Those were the times of the dotcom bubble and everyone including the powers at large in Nortel thought it would last a long time..it didn't.

As soon as it collapsed, the fortunes of many big companies (HP, Nortel etc) had their market cap eroding and took a nose dive. Fiorina had a lot of battles inside HP because of her decision to merge Compaq which was a bad decision as time proved, amongst others. 



> Following her forced resignation from HP, several commentators ranked Fiorina as one of the worst American (or tech) CEOs of all time


There must be something in the expensive bottled water that rich people drink. No shortage of egos and entitlement among the rich and famous.[/QUOTE]

it's more to do with the empowerment and the "obscene corporate bonuses" that they getting hired and then on firing. 


> the hiring as the result of "a dysfunctional HP board committee, filled with its own poisoned politics, hired her with no CEO experience, nor interviews with the full board."[47]
> 
> Fiorina received a larger signing offer than any of her predecessors, including:* US$65 million in restricted stock to compensate her for the Lucent stock and options she left behind*,[42] a US*$3 million signing bonus*, a US$*1 million annual salary (plus a US$1.25–US$3.75 million annual bonus)*, US$36,000 in mortgage assistance, a relocation allowance, and permission (and encouragement) to use company planes for personal affairs


Her corporate jet: 


> One Gulfstream IV, acquired at a cost of US$30 million and available for Fiorina's "exclusive" use,[124] became a rallying point among HP employees who complained of Fiorina's expensive self-promotion and top-down managerial style during a time of company layoffs


Even our Alison Redford pales in her spending habits by comparison!

With this kind of headstrong attitude, "I'm the boss and if you don't like it..your fired!", she will not go very far in corporate politics nor US government politics.


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## Pluto

I think there is something about how candidates present that has a lot to do with the final outcome. Kennedy - Nixon TV debate for instance. People who listened on the radio said Nixon won the debate. People who watched it on TV said Kennedy won. 

I imagine what would happen if Hilary was running against Thatcher. who would win? Thatcher would. Why? Presentation. Thatcher never looked like a granny. Thatcher's apparent confidence and quick wit allowed her to take on anyone. Hilary just doesn't look like she will inspire confidence. She is smart. She is experienced. She has the Clinton machine behind her. But when push comes to shove, voters tilt towards who looks the most confident. 

Trump has that in your face look, while Hilary is a tad hesitant and a tad laid back relatively speaking. That has an unconscious effect on voters.


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## jargey3000

"Don't be a chump - vote for Trump" The writing's on the wall....._"President Trump!"_ - has a nice ring to it - don't you think?


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## carverman

brad said:


> I agree that Trump is unlikely to win (but stranger things have happened). But assuming Clinton wins, what's likely to happen is that people will vote even more Republicans into the House and Senate, ensuring another 4 or 8 years of little change since *Clinton will be unable to enact most of her planned policies*.


Yup, The mostly republican house of representatives congress and the senate will see to stalling and filibustering..and other stalling tricks to prevent change from taking place.


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## carverman

jargey3000 said:


> "Don't be a chump - vote for Trump" The writing's on the wall....._"President Trump!"_ - has a nice ring to it - don't you think?


or `God help these United States of America`


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## spirit

http://time.com/money/4253949/h1b-visas-florida-primary/

The media has portayed Trump as leading a mass of poor uneducated neo Nazi type thugs who beat up protesters at the drop of a hat. I could never understand just how his support could be so strong if that was the type of support he was getting. 

Then I read this article. This is a real eye opener for me and it just makes sense. There are a lot of intelligent well educated people who are backing Trump and this is the reason why. They see huge corporations breaking a public trust with American workers....they are profiting on the backs of their own citizens....and the people do not like it. 

I also think that this discontent is something that Bernie has tapped into.

Ok, you heard it here first....Trump will choose Bernie as his running mate and they will sweep the election!!!!!


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## sags

To be the smartest person in the Oval Office, Trump should pick Ben Carson or Sarah Palin for his VP. They would make Trump look positively brilliant by comparison.

And I have been noticing the way Chris Christie looks stunned all the time during Trump's speeches. It looks like he has been hypnotized or given a lobotomy or something.

Maybe being around Trump all the time does that to a person.


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## tygrus

The way I see it, Trump wins either way. He has thrown such a monkey wrench into the convoluted system of voting down there makes 2000 florida chads look like nothing. Seems to be a farce and the amount of outside money coming in is obscene. Both need 2 billion dollars to November to finish the campaign. WTF.


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## mordko

Thankfully, Trump is going to get thumped by Hillary. Real Republicans might not bring themselves to vote for Clinton, but they will not vote at all or write-in someone else. A few particularly crazy lefties might vote for Trump, but most Democrats will stick with Hillary. The only way for Trump to win would be if Hillary were to end up in prison for her clever handling of secure emails.


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## jargey3000

wake up folks, the writing's on the wall... those 'mericans gonna vote the Don in. (jeez, they put good ol' boy george w. in - why not donald j.)you're gonna wake up the morning after, & all you'll hear is: "Well _I_ didn't vote for him etc. etc."
But, he got in!!
_"Don't be a Chump, vote for Trump!"_


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## dogcom

The only thing worse then Donald is Hillary. Donald won't be good but at least it will be the people prevailing instead of Wall Street and the elites. Of course once elected I am sure Donald will be read the riot act by the real people in charge and will probably fall in line.


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## mrPPincer

unless he starts another bunch of wars dogcom.
just like gb jr did; then he can roll the dice

hopefully the people saying he has no chance of winning are right


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## dogcom

Hillary will start them just like Obama did in Syria and taunting Russia and China. Hillary has a script to follow and if war is on the script she will follow it just like Obama has. In fact she will start twice as many as George Bush if she is directed to do so.


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## mordko

dogcom said:


> Hillary will start them just like Obama did in Syria and taunting Russia and China. Hillary has a script to follow and if war is on the script she will follow it just like Obama has. In fact she will start twice as many as George Bush if she is directed to do so.


Who writes the script?


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## humble_pie

mordko said:


> Who writes the script?



the Illuminati of course


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## dogcom

The people who bought her the election win and the ones with the money write the script. As someone said above it takes 2 billion to win the election so that leaves most people out of the process or gives way to much power and influence to those who have the money.


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## sags

Strange things happen in US politics..........

Paul Ryan drove the Weinermobile before he was elected and now he is the top ranking Republican.

It seems an appropriate connection on some level.

View attachment 10066


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## humble_pie

mrPPincer said:


> unless he [Trump] starts another bunch of wars dogcom.
> 
> hopefully the people saying he has no chance of winning are right



this is what i focus on. If Trump is elected what other angle would there be to worry about? everything else - immigration, the economy, race relations - fades compared to the horror.


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## sags

Trump has done everything he could to guarantee that Hillary Clinton will be the next President. That is what good friends do for each other.


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## Pluto

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/11/trum...st-even-with-clinton-in-national-us-poll.html

Trump now about even with Clinton. She better get used to the idea of spending evenings by the fireside with her wool and knitting needles.


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## humble_pie

if he's elected, have they started figuring out yet how they're going to impeach him


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## Pluto

I bet they are working on it. Buy the way, I'm not rooting for Trump, I just think he will win. 

In the meantime, there seems to be a little issue with his tax disclosure. I'm curious about why he won't disclose previous years that have the audit completed.


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## sags

Maybe he is doing everything he can to lose...........but Americans just won't let him.

Today his long time butler and confidante of 30 years posted on Facebook that he would like to see Obama killed. 

With every outrageous comment or event, Trump's ratings poll higher.

Poor Donald.........he can't lose for winning.

Welcome to the twilight zone..................


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## sags

Seriously I think it is decades of pent up anger and frustration built up and many disenfranchised Americans will cheer anything that is "sticking it to the man".

Consider that 46 million Americans are on food stamps. Tens of millions live in poor housing projects. Tens of millions lost their homes and jobs and haven't recovered.

America is a rich country. but most Americans don't own much of the wealth.

Donald Trump has already received more primary votes than any Republican candidate in history. Bernie Sanders is amassing huge numbers of voters.

Signs of the times.


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## sags

Pluto said:


> I bet they are working on it. Buy the way, I'm not rooting for Trump, I just think he will win.
> 
> In the meantime, there seems to be a little issue with his tax disclosure. I'm curious about why he won't disclose previous years that have the audit completed.


If Hillary Clinton falters or runs a weak campaign, it just could be that Trump does actually win.

He is now tied in the polls in battleground States with Clinton, which are crucial for either candidate to winning the election.

I have been following US politics for decades and have never seen anything like it, although I remember a kerfluffle when Barry Goldwater ran for the Republicans.


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## Pluto

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/22/clin...shrinks-to-3-points-new-nbc-newswsj-poll.html


Clinton leads Trump by only 3 points. IMO watch her lead evaporate.


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## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> Maybe he is doing everything he can to lose...........but Americans just won't let him.
> 
> Today his long time butler and confidante of 30 years posted on Facebook that he would like to see Obama killed.
> 
> With every outrageous comment or event, Trump's ratings poll higher.
> 
> Poor Donald.........he can't lose for winning.
> 
> Welcome to the twilight zone..................


The Trump organization has over 20,000 employees. Do you hold him responsible for the opinions of all his employees or in this case, ex employees?

I would sooner criticize issues that are more pertinent, like his complete lack of political experience and some of his own nutty statements.


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## Pluto

Clinton actually made a decent flowing fairly coherent speech yesterday. Best speech I ever heard her make. She is getting better in her presentation. Could be she will fight back and succeed. 

In the meantime Trump University sales play book gets revealed. LOL. Disgruntled students come out of the woodwork. Looks bad. The worst thing is his harping on that "Mexican" judge. Trump's family name historically is really Drumph....isn't that...oh never mind.


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## indexxx

sags said:


> America is a rich country. but most Americans don't own much of the wealth.
> 
> 
> Signs of the times.


Exactly why they shouldn't vote for him- he's part of the problem.


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## olivaw

A month ago I would have predicted Hillary Clinton. Now I am not so sure.


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## carverman

Trump will win of course. There has never been a woman president in their history..come to think of it..we only had one PM in our history who was a woman
and that was...scrratching head...Kim Campbell.
She lasted from June to November 1993 and never resided at Sussex. She tried to introduce new laws but for the most part was ineffective.

Not to say that Hilary can't make a good president, but there seems to be this old boys club in America that picks their own candidates for president.
Trump, in spite of being a bigot and blowhard, may still come out on top at the election. Five more months to go.


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## kcowan

Brand loyalty counts for the long run in Britain
I would never let a Virgin Brand go bankrupt


> "Because the Virgin brand is well-trusted globally, if we set up a new venture and put the Virgin brand to it, it gives it a leg up," Branson said in an interview with Inc. president and editor-in-chief Eric Schurenberg.
> 
> On the other hand, if a Virgin business is ever in trouble, like the Virgin Megastores that were shut down in Europe and North America, Branson can't just file for bankruptcy. Instead he has to spend millions to make sure they bow out gracefully from the market.
> 
> "We would never let a Virgin company go bust," Branson said. "We have to stand by all of our companies, and it costs us a lot more."
> 
> This committed investment into all the Virgin arms is well worth the risk, according to Branson. He revealed that "when music retailing was on its knees," the company spent tens of millions of pounds to prevent the collapse from destroying the rest of the Virgin brands.


In stark contrast to the blowhard in chief!


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## twa2w

carverman said:


> Trump will win of course. There has never been a woman president in their history..come to think of it..we only had one PM in our history who was a woman
> and that was...scrratching head...Kim Campbell.
> She lasted from June to November 1993 and never resided at Sussex. She tried to introduce new laws but for the most part was ineffective.
> 
> Not to say that Hilary can't make a good president, but there seems to be this old boys club in America that picks their own candidates for president.
> Trump, in spite of being a bigot and blowhard, may still come out on top at the election. Five more months to go.


I thought Hillary was an old boy. I thought that was why so many people didn't like her.

Five more LONG months to go.


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## sags

Something strange with polls numbers when Trump maintains such poll numbers overall, at the same time he has such low poll numbers in almost every segment of the population.


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## OhGreatGuru

*Who will win US election?*

Not us, that's for darn sure!


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## kcowan

Trump needs his own Constitution for the US

The Constitution and SCOTUS, both stumbling blocks for demagogues.


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## OhGreatGuru

Re: Trump needs his own Constitution for the US

A++ Intelligent political commentary is not yet dead in the USA. This should be required reading for registered Republicans, who might then realize that Hillary is the lesser of 2 evils.


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## Durise

No doubt, Clinton will win in this election. She has lots of experience even huge popularity. And personally, I hate Trump. Recently he talked some objectional things which I don't like.


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## sags

It looks like reality has finally overcome the "Trump phenomena". 

After securing the GOP nomination in May, the Trump campaign only managed to fund raise $144,000 in 27 days. They recently reported having only $1.5 million in the bank.

By contrast Hillary Clinton has $40 million and has been spending millions in ad campaigns across the US.

Trump has almost no campaign organization, has little support among GOP leaders and fired his campaign manager. Clinton has a massive campaign team and the full support of Democratic leaders.

As Don Meredith used to warble on Monday Night Football.............."turn out the lights the parties over"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ps-may-fundraising-totals-are-stunningly-bad/


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## carverman

he's not president yet, but already has had a assassination attempt by a Brit national, illegally in the US.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/20/donald-trump-assassination-attempt-las-vegas-rally



> According to the complaint, Sandford had gone to a gun range called Battlefield Vegas on 17 June in order to learn how to shoot. There, he fired 20 rounds from a Glock 9mm pistol, which, the complaint says, was the first time he had ever fired a gun.


 The gun craziness is contiuing..this time the failed attempt was not a Muslim nor was he gay. But he was preparing to carry out his plan. 
I guess what saved Trump was that Sanford could not buy a gun legally because he was an illegal.


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## SMK

*272*



Durise said:


> No doubt, Clinton will win in this election. She has lots of experience even huge popularity. And personally, I hate Trump. Recently he talked some objectional things which I don't like.


Huge popularity since when, since unknown Obama beat her in 2008? If Clinton wins it will only be because more people dislike Trump. Such sad choices Americans have.


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## protomok

My guess is Clinton + the lowest voter turnout in many years! I'm so glad to live in Canada, I am not a fan of either of the U.S candidates


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## sags

Trump might quit.

There are some rumors that he is beginning to understand that he won't have the full support of the Republican party, won't be able to raise enough money to run an effective campaign, and has no chance to win.

He might just decide he isn't as dedicated to the Republican Party as Barry Goldwater was. (reportedly told friends and insiders that he had no chance of winning but would stick it out for the party).

At least Goldwater had the GOP establishment behind him. Trump doesn't even have that reason to stay.

Trump may even be having problems finding a suitable VP. Some candidates have said they aren't interested. It would be political suicide and anyone with any ambitions won't be interested.

There is always Ben Carson or Chris Christie...........Sarah Palin said she didn't think it was a good idea for her to run again.


----------



## sags

According to CNN, Trump has spent a lot of money on hats and t-shirts that say........"Make America Great Again."

He may have to send them back for more lettering so he can sell them.........."I Would Have Make America Great Again."..............


----------



## olivaw

SMK said:


> Huge popularity since when, since unknown Obama beat her in 2008? If Clinton wins it will only be because more people dislike Trump. Such sad choices Americans have.


Clinton wasn't really viewed negatively when Obama beat her, he was just a better candidate. Seems that people liked her but relentless Republican attacks and fake scandals have worked to undermine her popularity.

ETA: I hope she can overcome it. She would probably be a decent President.


----------



## new dog

I hope she doesn't overcome it she is probably the most corrupt worst candidate the US has ever seen.


----------



## SMK

*135*



olivaw said:


> Clinton wasn't really viewed negatively when Obama beat her, he was just a better candidate. Seems that people liked her but relentless Republican attacks and fake scandals have worked to undermine her popularity.
> 
> ETA: I hope she can overcome it. She would probably be a decent President.


You're giving too much credit to the Republicans for Clinton's defeat in 2008 when she was quite capable of self-destruct, and continues to be the case. In the Democratic camp, (Bill) Clinton had been the most powerful name, but in the end it didn't help her much. She was defeated not only because relatively unknown senator Obama connected with voters unlike Clinton, or because America bought Obama's "real change", but because Hillary was never viewed as positively as her husband, not even by women. Bill Clinton's 2008 "back to the future" campaign slogan could not move voters to her camp either. Even now the powerful and potential co-presidency isn't exactly far ahead in the polls. Against someone like Trump, you would think she would be far ahead by now, but poll after poll show the unfavorable opinion of Clinton.

It also appears the ones who care most about her gender are older women.


----------



## Eder

Its a long way to November and Trump is doing fine even though all the media has been roasting him for over a year...he could win if he dropped the idiotic abortion stand republicans take, eased off on his stand on illegal immigrants and terrorists.

Clinton is a basket case & I do feel sorry for our southern friends...


----------



## Pluto

Apparently Trump gave a (written) speech yesterday (using the teleprompter). All his offensive stuff was left out. Time will tell if his more presidential presentation will work. 

His son was on CNN and they asked him how come you guys don't have any money? He replied something like, 'we don't need it, we run the campaign efficiently like the US government should be run'. lol.


----------



## bass player

Even if one ignores the decades of Clinton corruption (and many do), Hillary's health is a concern that should not be ignored. In the last 6 months, she has rarely appeared in public for longer than 10 minutes, and never answers unscripted questions. She has unexplained coughing fits, is confused easily, and has a history of fainting spells. She suffered a serious concussion in 2012 that, according to Bill, took 6 months to recover from. Since she won't release her medical records, there may be other issues that are kept hidden.


----------



## sags

That is a very good point bass player, and it is a top concern for sure.

Interesting that when Clinton was asked what she thinks is the main quality for her Vice Presidential pick, she said someone who is ready to step into the job immediately.

Hmmm.


----------



## sags

Pretty frightening concept though, that Republicans are sitting around hoping and waiting for their candidate for the President of the United States starts acting normal.

Compare the quality of politicians Americans get to choose from and that of our Canadian choices, and we haven't got much to complain about there.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Pretty frightening concept though, that Republicans are sitting around hoping and waiting for their candidate for the President of the United States starts acting normal.


And the Democrats are sitting around while Hillary makes 10 minute scripted appearances every few days. What happens if she's elected and has to work 14-hour days and make serious decisions? Can she even work one 14-hour day? Does she have the physical and mental stamina the job requires? The job is hard on healthy people, how will it a 68-year old women with a medical history?


----------



## Bowzer

Thanks for the conspiracy theory, bass player, but that totally ignores that she's appeared in dozens of debates the past year+, against a spirited and motivated opponent, and many more town halls.


----------



## carverman

bass player said:


> Hillary's health is a concern that should not be ignored. In the last 6 months, she has rarely appeared in public for longer than 10 minutes, and never answers unscripted questions. She has unexplained coughing fits, is confused easily, and has a history of fainting spells. She suffered a serious concussion in 2012 that, according to Bill, took 6 months to recover from. Since she won't release her medical records, there may be other issues that are kept hidden.


She had a concussion and a blood clot back in 2012 and was hospitalized. She is 69 now. 
From wiki:



> In December 2012, Clinton was hospitalized for a few days for treatment of a blood clot in her right transverse venous sinus.[365] Her doctors had discovered the clot during a follow-up examination for a concussion she had sustained when she had fainted and fallen nearly three weeks earlier, after developing severe dehydration from a viral intestinal ailment acquired during a trip to Europe.[365][366] The clot, which caused no immediate neurological injury, was treated with anticoagulant medication, and her doctors subsequently said she made a full recovery





> These long-lasting symptoms stemming from a concussion and blood clot, according to a neurologist, suggest Clinton is suffering from post-concussion syndrome, which can severely impact her cognitive abilities.
> She would come off the podium backstage – and have to sit and rest before making it back to the car because she was so fatigued, dizzy and disoriented.





> “I don’t think she has the physical stamina to be president,” he stated. “I have no doubt that Marco Rubio won’t call her on it, but Trump certainly would.


----------



## bass player

Bowzer said:


> Thanks for the conspiracy theory, bass player, but that totally ignores that she's appeared in dozens of debates the past year+, against a spirited and motivated opponent, and many more town halls.


Dozens of debates in the past year? How many dozen, exactly?


----------



## olivaw

SMK said:


> You're giving too much credit to the Republicans for Clinton's defeat in 2008 when she was quite capable of self-destruct, and continues to be the case. In the Democratic camp, (Bill) Clinton had been the most powerful name, but in the end it didn't help her much. She was defeated not only because relatively unknown senator Obama connected with voters unlike Clinton, or because America bought Obama's "real change", but because Hillary was never viewed as positively as her husband, not even by women. Bill Clinton's 2008 "back to the future" campaign slogan could not move voters to her camp either. Even now the powerful and potential co-presidency isn't exactly far ahead in the polls. Against someone like Trump, you would think she would be far ahead by now, but poll after poll show the unfavorable opinion of Clinton.
> 
> It also appears the ones who care most about her gender are older women.


Fair point, but I didn't say that Republicans hurt her in 2008 (or mean to say that). The attack machine switched focus from Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton after the 2012 election and it has been fairly effective at increasing her negatives. This is anecdotal, but I don't recall any reference to her being dishonest or ruthless when she became Secretary of State. It seems to be a more recent phenomenon. 

Here's a CNN story from 2014 about her favourability and the trend: 10 things our poll tells us about Hillary Clinton . Bill and Chelsea's numbers were certainly higher but her numbers were acceptable. If anything, the problem was a lack of enthusiasm - either for or against. Now the anti-Hillary movement seems energized while the pro-Hillary movement appears to be unenthusiastic. 



bass player said:


> Hillary's health is a concern that should not be ignored. .... She suffered a serious concussion in 2012 that, according to Bill, took 6 months to recover from. Since she won't release her medical records, there may be other issues that are kept hidden.


She's fine. Here you go:
2015: Clinton Releases Medical Records Showing She's 'Fit To Serve As President
2016: Hillary's health 'excellent,' doctor says


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Fair point, but I didn't say that Republicans hurt her in 2008 (or mean to say that). The attack machine switched focus from Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton after the 2012 election and it has been fairly effective at increasing her negatives. This is anecdotal, but I don't recall any reference to her being dishonest or ruthless when she became Secretary of State. It seems to be a more recent phenomenon.


She deleted govt. email, which is illegal. Her use of a private server was illegal and also put national security at risk. She lied outright about Benghazi and blamed it on a video. She once even claimed to be named after Sir Edmund Hillary. Cattlegate, her 6-figure "speaking fees", etc.

The truth is not an "attack machine". Anyone of the above incidents would be repeated daily by the left media had a Republican done them.


----------



## new dog

We should also note she gets contributions from wall street.

Of course it is all conspiracy theory bass player if we are talking democrats although the republican side is not much better Trump or not. Best to ignore everything and just vote for her if you are an American and not worry about it. In Canada I don't think we would let it all go but in the US all is good.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> She deleted govt. email, which is illegal. Her use of a private server was illegal and also put national security at risk. She lied outright about Benghazi and blamed it on a video. She once even claimed to be named after Sir Edmund Hillary. Cattlegate, her 6-figure "speaking fees", etc.
> 
> The truth is not an "attack machine". Anyone of the above incidents would be repeated daily by the left media had a Republican done them.


Wow, these are big Bass. But do you think they are as big as Rev. Wright; Obama's birth certificate; lapel pins; Fast and Furious; IRSGate; Holder; Solyandra; Black Panthers; Lybia attack; Frank Marshall Davis; Alinsky; Fr. Michael Pfleger; Emil Jones; the Muslim Call to Prayer; Drones; Occidental College transcripts; 57 states; Michelle Obama's anti-Americanism; Rev. James Meeks; missing state senate records; Obama's Muslim childhood; the Surge; and "Benghazi, Benghazi, BENGHAZI". 

Hillary Clinton will need to learn to overcome Republican talking points as effectively as Barack Obama did. Otherwise she may just lose this thing to an unqualified opponent.


----------



## sags

I am thinking if anyone spends $100,000 to buy this domain name.........www.presidenttrump.com they will end up very disappointed.

A woman registered the domain name in 2013 for $9 and says has turned down an offer over $43,000 USD.

I would say.................take the money lady.

She appears to be a newby at the domain name speculation game though. People don't sell domains through email offers............LOL.

They use a service that sells domain names and provides an escrow service for the transfer of the cash and domain registration.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/23/woma...umpcom-for-9-hopes-to-sell-it-for-100000.html


----------



## SMK

olivaw said:


> Bill and Chelsea's numbers were certainly higher but her numbers were acceptable. If anything, the problem was a lack of enthusiasm - either for or against.


And what I was saying from my first post, that Clinton was never popular, let alone "hugely popular". Both are considered the least popular candidates in modern history.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

As far as unpopularity goes you would have a hard job finding a more unpopular president than George W Bush in 2008. I have said many times, a stuffed dummy could have beaten Bush in 08. Everyone wanted to vote against the Republicans. Obama, then an unknown, benefited. To say everyone loved Obama is an exaggeration.

I wouldn't trust Clinton or Trump any farther than I could throw a grand piano but of the 2, Trump is probable less likely to be a complete disaster.


----------



## andrewf

So, Trump had talked about ramping up geopolitical instability by withdrawing from alliances and encouraging nuclear proliferation in Asia. Is he really less likely to be a disaster? What are you afraid of Hillary doing?


----------



## new dog

It looks like Hillary will continue Obama's policy of circling Russia with missile systems and provoking them into war. War with Russia or China spells certain disaster for the whole world whether the US has the the advantage or not.


----------



## mrPPincer

Who gets to push the buttons then.. either or..


----------



## SMK

^ Will be interesting.

Will there be 3 women in power next year, May or Leadsom, Merkel and Clinton? With Brexit, Merkel might just pull it off, again.


----------



## mordko

Trump will lose, barring something extraordinary happening just before the vote. I am hoping he will lose by a very wide margin. And it's not because I am a fan of Hillary's.


----------



## andrewf

Looks like the prediction markets are up to 67-75% Hillary win probability. Because both candidates are so disliked, I think it is a difficult election to call.

http://predictwise.com/
https://www.predictit.org/market/1234/who-will-win-the-2016-us-presidential-election


----------



## new dog

She is a criminal and should never ever be elected president. Trump aside this is the worst that the US can do what a joke their system has become.

We have seen 8 years of Obama and the worst racial tension in decades has come of it. He must have known after some time in office that police officers are not properly trained in the US and yet he has done nothing about it. Hillary comes out saying white people need to feel more towards black people like it is their fault in some way. In Canada we have every colour and we do have some racism but nowhere do I see groups coming out, being singled out or cops shooting minorities. We also generally ignore someone's race or colour when we interact with them on a daily basis and that goes both ways.

Hillary seems to just want to keep the blame game going and to separate the races.


----------



## twa2w

new dog said:


> ....
> We have seen 8 years of Obama and the worst racial tension in decades has come of it. He must have known after some time in office that police officers are not properly trained in the US and yet he has done nothing.


Obama has no jurisdiction of any kind over any of these officers. They are either state or city police. 
Obama has jurisdiction 'sorta' over the FBI who have not been involved.


----------



## new dog

Of course you are right, but I still think he could have done more in bringing in the states to address these concerns.


----------



## capricorn

I doubt any employee in a managerial capacity would have kept their job in private sector if they used personal email server for work. So, I am lost for any explanation as to why this "lack of common sense" does not disqualify Clinton. This is very first thing mentioned to any new employees. keep work related communication on work related systems. And this is for people whose work if leaked will probably have zero impact. and here we have someone handling one of the most sensitive office in world and was casual about the whole affair. 
And what does it say about her fellow workers who did not raise a red flag about getting work related mails outside the approved system. why did this come out so late?


----------



## mordko

She does not live by the rules, but neither does Trump. Of the two crooks Clinton is the least scary one.


----------



## capricorn

I really do not care about Trump or Clinton. What is worrisome is that democrats as a group could not find a better alternate.


----------



## new dog

I totally agree with you capricorn on both your points above. On the republican side the voters there are trying for real change, so we have Trump. Still not a good choice but at least they are reaching out for it. Why is it they always have to vote for the lesser of two evils. It doesn't say much for their political system.


----------



## sags

Something I have never heard the answer to is that I would imagine in that position, communications would arrive from around the world at all hours. 

Don't they have a secure connection available to her at anytime...........regardless of where she happens to be ?

It would seem kind of dumb that messages for the Secretary of State would just pile up until she comes into the office to check her mail.


----------



## sags

Both Clinton and Trump are pals with the Wall Street bankers, so that is a wash.

Both have shown to be capable of bad judgement, so that is a wash.

Clinton has a wealth of experience and Trump doesn't have any........so Clinton by a mile there.

Trump is hitting the high notes on anti-trade and blowing up ISIS rhetoric................so he wins on that score.

Maybe it all boils down to the nuclear option. Very few people have expressed comfort with Trump having access to the "football".

If he gets into one of his moods, it might not be a tweet that he wants to fire off.


----------



## capricorn

sags said:


> Clinton has a wealth of experience and Trump doesn't have any........so Clinton by a mile there.


what can be considered as crowing achievement of all this experience? 
As I see it the foreign policy has been unmitigated disaster.
Libya, Egypt, Ukraine, China the list goes on.. I have intentionally left out simmering hot spots from GWB era.


----------



## carol palmer

*Clear winner*

Clinton for sure


----------



## sags

Bernie Sanders gave his endorsement and support to Hillary Clinton in a speech that outlined a much more progressive set of policies for the election campaign.

Both Sanders and Clinton endorse Wall Street reforms, raising the Federal minimum wage to $15, lower interest for student loans and free tuition to local schools, and expanded healthcare coverage.

It will be a popular message to take to the electorate. We shall see how the Republicans respond with their own election platform.


----------



## carol palmer

Hillary for sure


----------



## sags

In a CNN interview yesterday, GOP leader Paul Ryan conceded the Republicans haven't had a set of coherent policies for more than 6 years, and the Republicans have developed a new set of policies that outline their agenda.


----------



## Pluto

Now that Trump has his running mate, a steady Eddy to balance out Trump's bombastic approach, and Hillary's boat is leaking with scandals, it looks like the Dems are about to give up the 
White House.


----------



## sags

Pence was a great VP choice if Trump wants to ensure Republicans receive little or no support from black, women, gay, or immigrant voters.

Well done Donald. You and Hillary can enjoy a glass of wine in the White House rose garden and laugh and laugh........while Republicans ponder what just happened.


----------



## Jerry

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but here goes: Trump!
The wrong Clinton is on the opposing side. She's just too cunning and fake, I feel.
Extremely inconsistent.

Donald Trump is at-least consistently a maniac!


----------



## Jerry

*Personal Opinion*

That's just my personal opinion, btw. Please don't hate.


----------



## carverman

Jerry said:


> Donald Trump is at-least consistently a maniac!


The last time there was a maniac leading a powerful country, millions of people lost their lives. 

The last thing the US needs right now is a "maniac/bombastic clown" at the helm. Fortunately in the US the Pres does not make all the crucial decisions, there are more powerful people behind the curtains pulling the strings. Trump can be the blowhard for all he's worth, but in matters of state the last word will not be from him.


----------



## new dog

I do like some of his message though. He is right on a lot of the immigration like the muslims and the overwhelming illegals in the country. I should add it is not the muslims fault the west ruined their countries but there are to many potentially dangerous muslims out there to chance bringing them in like Clinton would do. Clinton like Obama would like to destroy America on this front because of all the voters the democrats could get from leaving the doors open. The TPP is also a complete disaster that he would not sign which would be good. On the other trade deals even though they have been terrible costing many jobs I am not sure how he would renegotiate them. 

On race relations in the country, I would say Obama has been the worst president ever, when you look at race relations before he took office to after he first got in. Will Trump fix or help here it is uncertain but we know Hillary will be be of the same and continue dividing the nation. On Russia I believe Trump will talk to Putin and we know Hillary wants to continue to confront him which sounds very dangerous to me. Trump will be more dangerous towards China, if he really goes after them on trade, even if prior presidents shouldn't have done what they have done with China on trade.


----------



## sags

Trump and Sanders have put issues on the table that Clinton didn't think she would have to deal with..........free trade and illegal immigration being among them.

Clinton will have to respond to these issues, or Trump may surprise everyone one more time.

Political correctness has also become an issue for many. Even as a liberal minded person, I wonder if the concept hasn't reached too far into people's lives.


----------



## carverman

new dog said:


> I do like some of his message though. He is right on a lot of the immigration like the muslims and the overwhelming illegals in the country. I should add it is not the muslims fault the west ruined their countries but there are to many potentially dangerous muslims out there to chance bringing them in like Clinton would do.


The Pandora's Box of the US screwed up Middle East began with the Gulf War I in 1991. Saddam took over Kuwait, but George Bush Sr. decided to rescue his oil rich Arab friends and took on Saddam and his army. The US kicked his butt back to Iraq and they should have left him there in power to take care of any extremists. George Bush Sr even announced on TV
of a "New World Order"...but as time went on..it was more of a "New World Disarray". 

After 9/11 George Bush Jr and Dick Cheney wanted to invade Iraq on false pretences of WMD (which in the end proved to be bad intelligence) but they went ahead anyway, but the Billions in profits to rebuild the country that the big US entrepreneurs were hoping and expecting never materialized. You cannot turn a country that has been run as a dictatorship into a full democratic state. 

Thousands of US soldiers died for nothing, and the US had to leave Iraq, just like with Vietnam with nothing
to show for their efforts except an extremely destablized Sunni- Shite balance, created a political mess which led to the emergence of ISIS.

Now the whole world has to pay for this with radical extremists bombing, mass shootings, humanitarian consequences with all the Syrian refugees fleeing to other countries as the destablization spread to Syria, and of course as we now know, the terrible price the western world has to pay as a result. 

It would have been a lot cheaper all around (economically and from a humanitarian point of view), never mind their "military solution" costs, to leave things as they were under Saddam.
Operation Iraqi Freedom cost a lot of lives and money and achieved NOTHING!

Can Clinton or Trump put the Pandora back into her box, after it was opened and restore World order again?

I think not. The same old-same old will continue no matter who gets into the US "driver's seat."


----------



## TomB19

Hillary.

Hillary is saying as little as possible. Trump is free associating and doing a lot of seemingly random talking.

If Trump could have kept his message under control and to an extreme minimum, he could have won.


----------



## new dog

Carverman even if Dick Cheney had a crystal ball and knew what would happen he would have still invaded Iraq. Plus he would have invaded as many countries as possible because that was who he was and of course the money companies made supplying the effort in the Middle East. 

Hillary is waiting for her convention and the debates to pull the wool over the American people with enormous help from the Clinton News Network and all the mainstream media in general. If she doesn't win the election it will mean people in the US don't believe the mainstream media anymore.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> ... even if Dick Cheney had a crystal ball and knew what would happen he would have still invaded Iraq. Plus he would have invaded as many countries as possible because that was who he was and of course the money companies made supplying the effort in the Middle East.
> 
> Hillary is waiting for her convention and the debates to pull the wool over the American people with enormous help from the Clinton News Network and all the mainstream media in general. If she doesn't win the election it will mean people in the US don't believe the mainstream media anymore.



dogcom please forgive but i am curious ... why have you changed your username?

you can't conceal the language signature, it's like a fingerprint.

.


----------



## new dog

Olivaw figured it out first so he gets the prize, you however asked me directly which I was waiting for someone to do.

The only one who knew privately was James as I told him, but also told him not to say and wait for you guys to figure it out. 

I would have kept dogcom but got lost in the new security thing. I actually thought someone might figure that part out as well because you guys are pretty sharp around here.


----------



## gibor365

new dog said:


> Olivaw figured it out first so he gets the prize, you however asked me directly which I was waiting for someone to do.
> 
> The only one who knew privately was James as I told him, but also told him not to say and wait for you guys to figure it out.
> 
> I would have kept dogcom but got lost in the new security thing. I actually thought someone might figure that part out as well because you guys are pretty sharp around here.


I knew it from the beginning  .


> lost in the new security


 same here  , this is why I'm now gibor365 vs gibor , btw, 365 it's not number of days in the year, but my "code" when i worked in FIS


----------



## new dog

New dog but still the same old dog.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Olivaw figured it out first so he gets the prize, you however asked me directly which I was waiting for someone to do.



what, you & olivaw exchange pmms & other private little billets-doux?

who knows, maybe you guys are collaborating .:biggrin:


----------



## new dog

Olivaw figured it out, it was james4beach I told when I first started under new dog.


----------



## carverman

gibor365 said:


> I knew it from the beginning  . same here  , this is why I'm now gibor365 vs gibor , btw, 365 it's not number of days in the year, but my "code" when i worked in FIS


Hmmm.....Federal Intelligence Service......secret agent?

Is that like the KGB? Maybe the MOSSAD? CIA? CSIS? 

I guess maybe it's time to change my online persona to.... something more exciting than "carverman"...
how does FTW467016+3-9 sound?


----------



## carverman

new dog said:


> Carverman even if Dick Cheney had a crystal ball and knew what would happen he would have still invaded Iraq. Plus he would have invaded as many countries as possible because that was who he was and of course the money companies made supplying the effort in the Middle East.


True, Cheney's Haliburton enterprises were looking for some fat profiteering after Saddam and his old guard was smashed. They put a temporary civil administrator in to get things rolling again until after the Iraqi elections...trying out US style democracy in a country that has never known democracy.
The US public got the wool pulled over their eyes with Bush/Cheney and others to justify their invasion on the pretext of WMD. Lots of US suppliers did
make money from that fiasco, but it's a shame that over 4000 US Soldiers died for nothing, not to mention soldiers from Britain, France and other coalition
forces, including Canada's 158 in Afghanistan.



> After 4,486 U.S. soldiers died in Iraq and 2,345 U.S. soldiers died in Afghanistan, 1 million U.S. soldiers wounded in both wars, and a *potential cost of up to $6 trillion*, a new group like ISIL now causes havoc in the Middle East.Sep 17, 2014


6 Trillion? That's a phenomenal amount of money to spend on a war effort gone bad. They could have used that to bribe Saddam into doing the "housekeeping" in the middle east and have him on their side for far less than that. 



> Hillary is waiting for her convention and the debates to pull the wool over the American people with enormous help from the Clinton News Network and all the mainstream media in general. If she doesn't win the election it will mean people in the US don't believe the mainstream media anymore.


It all depends on who's wool the American voter thinks will give them the best bang for the buck..and I don't mean that literally..Hillary's too old:biggrin:
....Donald's a bit of a blowhard bent on having his own way, but good with spewing the old rhetoric to put the blame on everyone else. 

As far as I'm concerned neither one current candidates is what would be considered suitable in all the attributes that a good US president should possess.
It's been a long while since the US had a really good president. Not sure about Bill Clinton either, but Obama will never make it to the top 10 of good US presidents. 
Maybe the other candidates that support these two will add some credibility to what Clinton and Trump are lacking?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...ln-1-obama-18-kennedy-judged-most-over-rated/


----------



## dubmac

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/the-genius-of-trump
Conrad Black on the Genius of Trump. ..(NOte - You should have a thesaurus at hand when/if you read this article)


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Trump is on a glide path to the presidency" - Scott 'Dilbert' Adams on Trump's acceptance speech

Trump gave his nomination acceptance speech last night. I grade it an A-. It wasn’t a speech for the ages, but it was presidential enough. As convention speeches go, it was solid.

As I have already blogged, all Trump needs to do is NOT act like a crazy racist for the next few months and he will win bigly. This speech introduced no new outrages, and voters are starting to get used to the old ones. So on a strategic level, it was a strong performance. If Trump does more of this, and adds no new outrages, he’ll glide to a comfortable victory.

Persuasion-wise, Trump’s family was the big story of the convention. People seem to love them in the same way the public loved the Kennedys. And notice how Donald Jr. and Eric both have the speaking cadence of Jack and Bobby Kennedy. Notice also how Melania reminds you of Jackie Kennedy – quiet, smart, and classy. These are coincidences, but your irrational brain doesn’t care. It sees a new batch of Kennedys and wants to see more of them. That’s powerful election magic for a nation that only pretends to care about policies.

A week ago you compared ugly Donald Trump with ugly Hillary Clinton and declared them a visual tie. That matters because our visual “brain” generally wins against whatever part of the brain is pretending to be logical that day. But once we got a look at the entire Trump family, acting as a group, our visual brains started seeing them as a package deal. And when you compare the entire Trump family’s visual appeal to the entire Clinton family’s visual imagery it’s a massacre. 

Would you prefer seeing Bill and Hillary Clinton decompose in front of your eyes for eight years, or watch the Trump family develop their dynasty? Entertainment-wise, that’s no contest. And people usually vote for entertainment over policy. They just don’t realize it. That’s the biggest news from the convention, and you won’t see it in any headline.

I watched Trump’s entire 90-minute speech and don’t remember any of the boring policy statements. No one cares about that stuff. But on the persuasion dimension, I recall the following impressions.

1. Trump made a credible case that he is the better protector of the LGBTQ community because he takes a harder line against Muslim immigration. Even the fact-checkers will ignore that claim. It’s too true to check. And it makes whatever-the-hell Clinton says about protecting LGBTQ citizens look disingenuous.

2. Trump’s best unscripted moment came when he humbly acknowledged that he probably didn’t deserve the support of evangelicals. That was persuasion genius. Nothing will make religious people love you harder than admitting you are not worthy of their affection. Boom. That’s a ten-out-of-ten on the persuasion scale, and you probably thought it was just an unscripted aside. They’re locked in now.

3. Trump made multiple references to inclusiveness. But the best, in terms of persuasion, was his twist on Clinton’s “I’m with her” slogan. Trump says “I’m with you.” That’s good idea-judo. He acknowledges the truth of the other side’s slogan then makes it look ridiculous.

4. I expected more from Trump in terms of dispelling Clinton’s accusations of racism. Instead of producing some quotable speech moments on the topic he wove lots of visual evidence into the entire convention. For example…

My favorite moment of the convention was the other night when a prominent Muslim leader in a business suit gave the benediction. He asked the assembled Republicans to pray to God, and you could almost hear the crowd wondering if they would be praying to the right God in this situation. But they played along. 

As things stand now, Trump is on a glide path to the presidency. Something new would have to happen to stop him.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "Trump is on a glide path to the presidency" - Scott 'Dilbert' Adams on Trump's acceptance speech
> 
> Trump gave his nomination acceptance speech last night. I grade it an A-. It wasn’t a speech for the ages, but it was presidential enough. As convention speeches go, it was solid.


Now that it looks like he is a "glidein"..but not exactly a "shoein" for the presidency, his speech writers are being more careful about
what he says publicly. No more off the cuff remarks about certain races, and that's a good thing.



> As I have already blogged, a*ll Trump needs to do is NOT act like a crazy racist for the next few months and he will win bigly.* This speech introduced no new outrages, and voters are starting to get used to the old ones. So on a strategic level, it was a strong performance. If Trump does more of this, and adds no new outrages, he’ll glide to a comfortable victory.


This was his biggest faux pas up to now, but as long as he makes good speeches about what is currently wrong with America and
as their president how he will change things to make improvements in their lifestyles, he will get the upper hand over Clinton for sure...a "chicken in every pot"..another president (Herbert Hoover) probably used used that during the depression days and it worked for him during his election campaign. Then FDR (Franklin D. Roosevelt) came along with his "New Deal"..



> During the presidential campaign of 1928, a circular published by the Republican Party claimed that if Herbert Hoover won there would be “a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage.





> In 1932, President Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected in a landslide on promises to take swift and decisive action. The foundation of this recovery involved devaluing the U.S. dollar against its gold backing, and basically amounted to currency debasement and deficit-financed make-work programs. The cost of the New Deal – the brainchild of British economist John Maynard Keynes – was foisted upon future generations.
> 
> When confronted with these long-term costs and the necessity of running budget surpluses to pay off debt incurred by his “demand management program,” Keynes casually dismissed this critique with the statement that “in the long run, we are all dead.”
> 
> Well, it’s safe to say that we have reached what would be considered “the long run” and, no, we are not all dead yet. The only thing that has sheltered the current working generation from the financial consequences of government debt growth (taxes, runaway CPI inflation) is the fact that America successfully “dollarized” the rest of the world in the post-World War II period.





> This is not to say that we will escape unscathed. Internationally.





> Persuasion-wise, Trump’s family was the big story of the convention. People seem to love them in the same way the public loved the Kennedys. And notice how Donald Jr. and Eric both have the speaking cadence of Jack and Bobby Kennedy. Notice also how Melania reminds you of Jackie Kennedy – quiet, smart, and classy. These are coincidences, but your irrational brain doesn’t care. It sees a new batch of Kennedys and wants to see more of them. That’s powerful election magic for a nation that only pretends to care about policies.


That seems to be the approach he is taking now..get the whole family involved.



> A week ago you compared ugly Donald Trump with ugly Hillary Clinton and declared them a visual tie. That matters because our visual “brain” generally wins against whatever part of the brain is pretending to be logical that day. But once we got a look at the entire Trump family, acting as a group, our visual brains started seeing them as a package deal. And when you compare the entire Trump family’s visual appeal to the entire Clinton family’s visual imagery it’s a massacre.


No contest there. The young and vibrant family of his with his two daughters, raving beauties themselves, will definitely appeal to the eye candy expectations of delegates and voters, if they continue without making any major mistakes and stick to the script as they say.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump's "glide path" is straight into the side of Mount Clinton..........


----------



## kcowan

Rusty O'Toole said:


> As things stand now, Trump is on a glide path to the presidency. Something new would have to happen to stop him.


Like Jack and Bobby with their untimely deaths? A disgruntled Islamic terrorist?


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Notice also how Melania reminds you of Jackie Kennedy – quiet, smart, and classy.




rusty you're great with options & you're tops with growing small green onions from their roots (pun is intentional) & your post above is gorgeous even though i don't agree with one word of it.

but let's not mention the 2 ladies in the same breath.

nobody would ever put naked-photo-slut-shaming-speech-stealing-plagiarist-wife in the same paragraph, room, class, league, political party or even city as the late jacqueline bouvier

i've lost track of trump's numerous wives & infamous divorces ... is naked-slut the mother of all those children? lol the trump menagerie reminds me of sarah palin who started out Mrs America but ended up numero uno Dysfunctional Family .each:

.












.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It wasn't my post, it was a direct steal from Scott Adams (with attribution!). I think everyone should be aware of his blog posts because he has been uncanny in his predictions of Trump's success, analyzing the election campaign from the standpoint of persuasion, NLP and hypnosis. Nobody else noticed that Trump "the deal maker" is an expert at persuasion. All his nutty statements and actions make perfect sense from the standpoint of using persuasive tactics to sway the electorate.

Trump is crazy all right. Crazy like a fox.


----------



## humble_pie

^^


yes, you did acknowledge the source! here i was thinking Gotta-look-for-Rusty's-blog ...

like an inversion of princess diana, your friend scott adams has terrible taste in women, though.

my takeaway is that he thinks Donald Trump's nuttiest views have all been aired, from now on the aging GOP bomber will taxi lightly on the runway towards the centre ...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

That seems to be the idea. He said the same thing months ago, predicting that Trump would back off once he had the nomination sewn up and got into the campaign. He also pointed out that Trump has a history of taking an extreme position at the beginning of a negotiation so he can give up something and "meet the other person half way" with "half way" being where he wanted to end up in the first place.

When other commentators were saying Hillary had an unbeatable 8 point lead in the polls Adams pointed out that Trump only needed to improve his own numbers by 4% while dragging Hillary down by 4% and he could do that easily with a few persuasion tricks. This has since happened.

I have a feeling Trump is going to win the election handily and all the commentators except Adams are going to be standing there with a stunned look on their faces wondering what the hell just happened.

This does not mean I want Trump to win. I think he would make a terrible president. But I expect him to win all the same.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Wait a second.... are you saying he has terrible taste in women because he thinks Melania Trump is better looking than Hillary Clinton???


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Wait a second.... are you saying he has terrible taste in women because he thinks Melania Trump is better looking than Hillary Clinton???



no, the ladies being compared by scott adams are melania trump & jacqueline kennedy. Preposterously, the scottster says that the naked slut reminds him of the boston aristocrat. He goes on about how melania is smart & classy like jackie. It's the only totally dumb remark in his essay.

gazing once more at melania's GQ magazine naked photo ...

it appears that possibly the face may have been photo-shopped onto the body. The perspective between face & body is not quite normal. The angle of the neck is not quite normal either. Or rather one should say, the angle of the missing neck is not quite normal.

certainly the handcuffs in the infamous photo have been photo-shopped in & out in different versions. Reportedly there's even a version in which melania is holding a pistol.

of course, if the photo-shopping theory has merit, then it's possible that the naked body in the photograph is not melania knauss, as she was known at the time (the picture was allegedly taken in 2000, when the slovenian model was the donald's gf but not yet his wife) (possibly in 2000 he had another wife)

on the other hand, in march 2016 the same British GQ magazine that had published the original naked-slut photo, posted this gallery of pictures taken mostly during the same photo shoot, showing melania inside trump's private jet during the year 2000.

idk, somehow i cannot imagine naked-slut serving as First Lady of the US. One might recall when nicholas sarkozy married french supermodel carla bruni in 2008, but bruni was also an established entertainer who could sing & act. 

neither did bruni ever - to the best of my knowledge - pose for galleries of photos quite as raunchy as these showing melania.

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/donald-trump-melania-trump-knauss-first-lady-erections



.


----------



## Pluto

humble_pie said:


> no, the ladies being compared by scott adams are melania trump & jacqueline kennedy. Preposterously, the scottster says that the naked slut reminds him of the boston aristocrat. He goes on about how melania is smart & classy like jackie. It's the only totally dumb remark in his essay.


She is showing about as much skin as one can see any day on a Brazilian beach, or in an art gallery featuring Renaissance paintings. Apparently, some Pope later got appalled and had his people go around and chisel the dinks off on many of Michelangelo's statues. LOL. More recently there is a coverup going on at the Sistine Chapel.
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-11-27/news/mn-61415_1_private-parts
The evaluation of the lady in question seems to depend on whether the assessor has a Renaissance perspective, or a modern Catholic one.


----------



## carverman

humble_pie said:


> rusty you're great with options & you're tops with growing small green onions from their roots (pun is intentional) & your post above is gorgeous even though i don't agree with one word of it.
> 
> but let's not mention the 2 ladies in the same breath.
> 
> *nobody would ever put naked-photo-slut-shaming-speech-stealing-plagiarist-wife in the same paragraph*, room, class, league, political party or even city as the late jacqueline bouvier
> 
> i've lost track of trump's numerous wives & infamous divorces ... *is naked-slut the mother of all those children*? lol the trump menagerie reminds me of sarah palin who started out Mrs America but ended up numero uno Dysfunctional Family


Tsk! Tsk! I'm "shocked"; Humble; for this posting a provocative pic of a semi-nude lady on CMF. 

Let's not let CMF sink into the realms of Playboy style please.
While we (as men) admire the female physique and attributes in those that are especially gifted in the few short years they can display
these attributes in front of a camera, perhaps it is better to leave things to the imagination? :biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

Pluto said:


> She is showing about as much skin as one can see any day on a Brazilian beach, or in an art gallery




you're right, nudes go great in art galleries, some beaches - wreck beach is a popular canadian nudie beach on the UBC point grey campus - various secluded resorts plus every gradaton along the porn setting spectrum.

but has america really reached the stage where it will deliberately vote soft core porn into the White House

.


----------



## humble_pie

carverman said:


> Tsk! Tsk! ... perhaps it is better to leave things to the imagination? :biggrin:




leave to the imagination? on the contrary, every last candidate atom & e-mail has got to be bared to voting american voyeurs as they pant down the runway towards a presidential election

carverman did you happen to look at the british GQ magazine gallery of slut pix that i linked above? truly i believe you might be one who could be interested

as with the first pic, the odd sense of a face that's been photoshopped in

.










.












.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> i've lost track of trump's numerous wives & infamous divorces ... is naked-slut the mother of all those children? lol the trump menagerie reminds me of sarah palin who started out Mrs America but ended up numero uno Dysfunctional Family .each:


Speaking of dysfunctional families...then you must really be sputtering with outrage over the fact that a dozen women have accused Bill Clinton of sexual harassment, and even more outraged that Hillary (I'm all for women!!) has publicly slandered many of them.

Or, do you have different standards depending on which party they belong to?? :stupid:


----------



## olivaw

Bill was re-elected after the accusations of harassment so it hardly seems like something that should be used against his wife. 

Why are the Russians are working to get Trump elected? 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...orking-to-elect-donald-trump/article31091431/


----------



## sags

Quite the dog and pony show.

It all confirms what I have always believed. If you want to do something, you don't ask thousands of people for their opinion on how to do it unless you want thousands of different answers.

Inclusion is a concept that doesn't work in practice. Too many people have opinions based on no knowledge or information.

I like our current system. We elect a leader and they have the power and responsibility to govern.

Almost like democratically electing a benevolent dictator every few years.


----------



## sags

Odds and ends.....

The "psychology" I got from Melania Trump's picture of her naked, draped in jewels, and handcuffed to a business briefcase gilded with gold hardware in Trump's plane,...... wasn't a positive message.

But when were these pictures taken ?

The Democrats are running a very effective ad that shows children watching television and listening to various Trump statements.

Very effective visual to those demographic groups Trump is talking about, but needs to win the election.

The Democrats have Debbie Wasserman's problems to deal with and then after that a stellar lineup of Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and Michelle Obama.

Trump got a huge bump in popularity from his convention. We shall see if Clinton gets the same sort of bump.

At best Clinton is tied with Trump. At worst she is trailing him by several percentage points.

The polling is small..........only 1000 people, so they should be taken as such............still it is interesting that it is so close.

There is an "education gap" in the polling as well. Trump has overwhelming leads in white male voters with no college degree.

Even looking at a map of the US, it is quite a fractured country politically.

There is Democratic support in high density urban areas along the east and west coasts, while the entire center of the US is Republican.

If one only looks at a colored map......blue for Democrats and red for Republicans, it appears that the Republicans should win easily.

But population density is the difference.

It is not unlike southern Ontario, where most of the rural areas vote Conservative and the cities vote Liberal.


----------



## mrPPincer

sags said:


> The "psychology" I got from Melania Trump's picture of her naked, draped in jewels, and handcuffed to a business briefcase gilded with gold hardware in Trump's plane,...... wasn't a positive message, but illustrative of Trump's thought process.


hmm.. haven't seen them (troll h_p has attained the distinguished solitude of being the only CMFer to make it to my ignore list), but what's the difference?

Melania Trump has shown some sexuallity on the internet? whoop dee doo, who hasn't these days.

Pie's precious jackie was playing the exact same game back in the olden days when moneyed dressed up aristocrats were in fashion.


----------



## sags

One unanswered question being bandied about on US talk radio is if Russia intercepted more emails than just the DNC. 

The US knows the Russian hackers tried to hack the White House and some of the respondents to Clinton's emails from her private servers.

Will the Russians drop a bomb in the middle of Clinton's campaign by releasing hacked emails from her server ?

The relationship between the US and Russia could grow very cold again.


----------



## sags

mrPPincer said:


> hmm.. haven't seen them (troll h_p has attained the distinguished solitude of being the only CMFer to make it to my ignore list), but what's the difference?
> 
> Melania Trump has shown some sexuallity on the internet? whoop dee doo, who hasn't these days.
> 
> Pie's precious jackie was playing the exact same game back in the olden days when moneyed dressed up aristocrats were in fashion.


In this day and age I think it does make a difference. A lot of people are more sensitive to such things these days.

Not saying it is good, bad or indifferent...........it just is.

We had a 20 foot Wall of Honeys (Sun bikini girls) plastered on a wall at work for many years. It was ripped down years ago.

You won't see that in a workplace today. Times and attitudes have changed a lot.

Or maybe they really haven't changed all that much. They have just been driven underground and out of view in today's world.

We forbid walls of calendar girls, but pornography is the number one interest on the internet............just saying.


----------



## mrPPincer

The newspaper was crap, more of a tabloid kinda thing if I recall correctly, but the sunshine girl was always the best part.

I remember seeing the pictures plastered on the walls of the factory outlets where we picked up materials when I worked in construction in southern ontario and in calgary in the 80's.

Looked it up, and looks like the model (no pun intended) is unchanged..

http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl
http://www.calgarysun.com/sunshine-girl

Same sunshine girl, wow.

Calgary and T.O. have more in common than I thought


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> One unanswered question being bandied about on US talk radio is if Russia intercepted more emails than just the DNC.
> 
> The US knows the Russian hackers tried to hack the White House and some of the respondents to Clinton's emails from her private servers.
> 
> Will the Russians drop a bomb in the middle of Clinton's campaign by releasing hacked emails from her server ?
> 
> The relationship between the US and Russia could grow very cold again.


It is believed that they also hacked emails from the RNC but did not release them. That is why the Democrats are claiming that Russia is trying to get Trump elected. 

If I was Russia, I would probably want Trump to win too. He appears to want to weaken NATO (complaining that the US carries too much defence burden); he blames trading partners for American economic trouble and he likes to attack brown American citizens. He publicly admired Putin after Putin said nice things about him. Perhaps he is susceptible to flattery. 

Clinton would continue the Obama/NATO policy of strengthening NATO's military presence in Eastern Europe. 

Some Republicans that I know admire Putin because of his tough guy image. 

They won't mind Melania's photographs. Indeed, they believe that complaints about the photographs stem from a radical feminist ideology.

ETA


mrPpincer said:


> The newspaper was crap, more of a tabloid kinda thing if I recall correctly, but the sunshine girl was always the best part.


Sunshine Girl pictures were modest compared to the some British tabloids of yesteryear. http://time.com/3677923/british-tabloid-sun-topless-page-three/


----------



## new dog

The mainstream media is 100 percent behind Clinton so the Russian e-mail hack evens it up a bit. Anyway it is better to release it all to show the kind of crook your voting for into the White House.


----------



## sags

Interesting contrast in the first nights of the party conventions.

When Bernie Sanders started speaking at 11 p.m. the convention center was stilled packed to the rafters. 

By contrast the Republicans made scheduling mistakes and had unknown speakers in prime time and the convention center emptied out early.

The speaking lineup for the Democrats was very impressive with Cory Booker, Michelle Obama, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, and each gave very good speeches, taking different viewpoints on the election.

In my opinion, I thought Cory Booker gave the best speech I have heard in years. He took an audience that was basically flat and lifted them into a rising crescendo that ended in thunderous applause. The other speakers who followed him didn't enjoy quite the same level of appreciation, although Michelle Obama was very close.

Booker is a rising star for the Democrats and was a serious consideration as Clinton's VP. 

The downside of the night was probably Al Franken and Sarah Silverman. They kind of flamed out quickly. Paul Simon's best singing days are behind him. Despite writing Bridge over Troubled Waters it has always been Art Garfunkle's unique voice that made the song such a classic hit.

Tomorrow should be another interesting day at the convention.


----------



## sags

Several new polls show Donald Trump leading Hillary Clinton.

The guy should be examined by both scientists and Spock. He defies gravity and all logic.


----------



## olivaw

Polls tend to go haywire during the conventions.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Several new polls show Donald Trump leading Hillary Clinton.
> 
> The guy should be examined by both scientists and Spock. He defies gravity and all logic.


Yes, I thought that all along..but he does speak his mind about a lot of things during his campaign.

Whether he will be able to do that after he's elected is another story. I'm sure that his campaign speech writers will
be replaced with White House advisers and speech writers and spokespersons.

In the US,the President may be the key figure head when it comes to public appearance, but there is a lot of behind the scenes
people that do the official policy making , as well as Congress and the Senate, so he will be somewhat subdued/toned down 
if elected that is. 

Who knows, he may actually turn out to be a "reasonable" president...even if he has no political experience history.


----------



## sags

The President has executive powers though, and that is what concerns me the most. 

An angry temperament, takes everything personal.....and command of the full US military is not a comforting combination.

I remember when thinking he wasn't live on the air, Ronald Reagan joked about bombing the Russians. It caused a lot of people to question if he was still functioning properly and as it turned out he was suffering from some problems and his wife Nancy and others were making a lot of the decisions for him.

Imagine Donald Trump facing a Cuban crisis type of situation that JFK had to deal with ? It might not have turned out the same way.

As far as the economy and all that...........they aren't life and death situations and are largely controlled by the Senate and Congress who control spending.

I also think the military might push back if ordered to do something irrational........but that isn't supposed to happen either.

In the 911 event, it was revealed that military action, such as shooting down aircraft can only be approved by a direct order from the Vice President.

As the order didn't arrive until after the event, even if the air force had intercepted the 911 attackers they had no authority to shoot down the aircraft.

Perhaps the VP is one safety valve in that respect. It may take more than the President's order to launch immediate military action......I don't know.

After all the colossal failures of the national protection system, including that most of the air force jets were unarmed, it may be a lot different setup today.

Nevertheless, the military is supposed to follow orders without question.

All in all, a Trump Presidency may create some bigger concerns than many Americans think about.


----------



## Pluto

humble_pie said:


> you're right, nudes go great in art galleries, some beaches - wreck beach is a popular canadian nudie beach on the UBC point grey campus - various secluded resorts plus every gradaton along the porn setting spectrum.
> 
> but has america really reached the stage where it will deliberately vote soft core porn into the White House
> 
> .


Trump clearly has a chance of winning. I doubt the photos have much to do with anything in the minds of voters. It seems more like a lack of confidence in Hilary. I got more respect for Sanders who knew the DNC was rigged against him, and finally the email leak proved it. Hilary is about Hilary. She just wants her personal ambitions realized and she isn't above back room deals and manipulation to achieve it. 

And what's this issue for decades about the system being rigged against women? Numerous countries have had female heads of state. The predominantly Muslim Bangladesh, for example, has apparently had female heads of state in 22 of the last 50 years. There is no rigged system against women. 

I think Trump is just as surprised as anyone that he made it this far. the message is obvious: lots of people want something different that what she has to offer.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> We had a 20 foot Wall of Honeys (Sun bikini girls) plastered on a wall at work for many years. It was ripped down years ago.
> 
> You won't see that in a workplace today. Times and attitudes have changed a lot.




sags the pictures above are *not* the harmless boys' locker room type of bikini-clad girlie pinups that you are referring to.

those pictures of melania are soft porn. At the time they were filmed, melania & donald were in a relationship. News reports state that donald was melania's employer, that she was working as hostess on his private jet. He would have had to know the photo shoots were taking place, on his own plane. He would have had to be collaborating.

one wonders what kind of husband or boy friend would behave like that. 

previously, i had not believed that americans would ever consider sending such a distasteful couple to the White House. All the americans i've known have always been so proud of their country.


.


----------



## humble_pie

Pluto said:


> And what's this issue for decades about the system being rigged against women?




? sorry, might you be confusing other posters or other threads?

i don't believe this thread has questioned system rigging against women. Certainly i for one have never referred to such an issue.


.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> previously, i had not believed that americans would ever consider sending such a distasteful couple to the White House. All the americans i've known have always been so proud of their country.


Just as many people find the Clinton's distasteful, in addition to being corrupt.


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> sags the pictures above are *not* the harmless boys' locker room type of bikini-clad girlie pinups that you are referring to.
> 
> those pictures of melania are soft porn. At the time they were filmed, melania & donald were in a relationship. News reports state that donald was melania's employer, that she was working as hostess on his private jet. He would have had to know the photo shoots were taking place, on his own plane. He would have had to be collaborating.
> 
> one wonders what kind of husband or boy friend would behave like that.
> 
> previously, i had not believed that americans would ever consider sending such a distasteful couple to the White House. All the americans i've known have always been so proud of their country.
> 
> 
> .


That scenario would be a little troubling. I read somewhere that Trump also keeps scantily clad pictures of former wife Marla Maples in his office.

Add in his comments on Carly Fiorina (ugly face), Heidi Cruz (ugly), Elizabeth Warren (Pocohantas), Meaghan Kelley and the trend is clear.

Trump seems to me like the kind of guy...........other guys might refer to as "greasy".


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> That scenario would be a little troubling. I read somewhere that Trump also keeps scantily clad pictures of former wife Marla Maples in his office.
> 
> Trump seems to me like the kind of guy...........even other guys might refer to as "greasy".


Based on Bill's track record with women, Trump is a saint.


----------



## sags

Given his comments and the choice in VP, it is clear that Trump doesn't care about black, women, gay, or Latino votes at all.

He has written off those voters and believes he can win by rallying the angry white vote.

He has brought millions of new voters into the political system...........so maybe he is exploiting a darker side to America than was previously exposed.

In all the political wisdom, Trump shouldn't have won the Republican nomination and he shouldn't be leading Hillary Clinton in the polls.

But he is.


----------



## Pluto

humble_pie said:


> ? sorry, might you be confusing other posters or other threads?
> 
> i don't believe this thread has questioned system rigging against women. Certainly i for one have never referred to such an issue.
> 
> 
> .


That's true you never did. I just threw it in there as I was recalling Hilary use the phrase "women's rights" in one of her speeches with out elaborating. She got lots of cheers with that however. I wondered what the heck she was talking about especially since Sanders was getting a raw deal at the hands of Debbie and her cohorts. And Mrs Obama recently gave Hilary credit for showing her daughters that a woman can be president. I don't get it. Hasn't she heard of India, Pakistan, Great Brittan, Germany, Bangladesh, and more? What rights don't women have in America? Isn't Hilary and Debbie telling Obama's daughters that to win you have to be bigoted, but don't get caught?


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> That scenario would be a little troubling. I read somewhere that Trump also keeps scantily clad pictures of former wife Marla Maples in his office.
> 
> Add in his comments on Carly Fiorina (ugly face), Heidi Cruz (ugly), Elizabeth Warren (Pocohantas), Meaghan Kelley and the trend is clear.
> 
> Trump seems to me like the kind of guy...........other guys might refer to as *"greasy"*.


Speaking of spouses, "greasy" as the potential First Gentleman and co-president, who used the Oval Office for his "greasy" affairs not his private jet.... err car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBe_guezGGc


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Based on Bill's track record with women, Trump is a saint.


I don't know who was better or worse, but I know that a candidate's track record with women doesn't really seem to matter much to voters. 

To wreck his campaign a presidential candidate needs to: 
1) Have an extramarital affair;
2) Father a child with his mistress;
3) Misuse campaign funds to pay for it all


----------



## sags

And there was JFK and Marilyn Monroe............Happy Birthday..........Mister President...........cooed the sultry blonde bombshell.

Maybe best keep Donald Trump AND Bill Clinton out of the White House.......or have all male interns.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> And there was JFK and Marilyn Monroe............Happy Birthday..........Mister President...........cooed the sultry blonde bombshell.
> 
> Maybe best keep Donald Trump AND Bill Clinton out of the White House.......or have all male interns.


As far as I know, neither JFK or Trump have been accused of rape. Bill, on the other hand...


----------



## humble_pie

.

was someone on here saying trump is a saint .each:

gosh, what kind of saint pimps his girlfriend as she ... ummm ... hostesses on his private jet


.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> was someone on here saying trump is a saint .each:
> .


Yes...when compared to Bill Clinton.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> Yes...when compared to Bill Clinton.


You won't miss the show and honest DNC speech tonight are you? :biggrin:


----------



## andrewf

Sounds like Trump may be a fifth columnist, bought by Russia. I find it quite alarming that he is talking about giving Russia carte blanche to attack NATO allies. And leaving any ambiguity on this matter is how nuclear wars with Russia start. This guy is incredibly dangerous.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Sounds like Trump may be a fifth columnist, bought by Russia. I find it quite alarming that he is talking about giving Russia carte blanche to attack NATO allies. And leaving any ambiguity on this matter is how nuclear wars with Russia start. This guy is incredibly dangerous.


+1. I mean he wasn't literally bought by Russia, but he has certainly aligned himself with Putin. If he were to win, the only hope would be that the US system can severely limit Presidential powers.


----------



## new dog

Better to have Clinton antagonize Russia into war and then she can go hide underground while the rest of us enjoy the nuclear winter. Also she can sell off the rest of the US to China, sign the TPP and ruin the rest of the American manufacturing.


----------



## mrPPincer

Dogcom, I thought both candidates were against TPP.


----------



## mrPPincer

Just googled it..

http://www.commondreams.org/news/20...trayal-dnc-surrogates-defeat-anti-tpp-measure
An excerpt..


> The Associated Press reports:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The panel, which is developing the party's platform ahead of next month's Philadelphia convention, instead backed a measure that said "there are a diversity of views in the party" on the TPP and reaffirmed that Democrats contend any trade deal "must protect workers and the environment."
> 
> 
> 
> But Kevin Gosztola argued that other motivations were at play, writing on Sunday, "the only reason why Clinton appointees would not want to put this in the platform was if Clinton was planning to backtrack on her opposition to the TPP if she is elected president."
Click to expand...


----------



## Pluto

andrewf said:


> Sounds like Trump may be a fifth columnist, bought by Russia. I find it quite alarming that he is talking about giving Russia carte blanche to attack NATO allies. And leaving any ambiguity on this matter is how nuclear wars with Russia start. This guy is incredibly dangerous.


My understanding is that after the USSR spun apart, Ukraine had 1/3 of the worlds nuclear weapons. In exchange for giving up those weapons Ukraine was supposed to be protected by Nato. 
Now, wasn't Crimea an autonomous state within Ukraine? Didn't Russia recently anex Crimea and allegedly cause a lot of trouble in Ukraine? 

What the heck did NATO do about it? As far as I know, nothing. 
Seems like Russia already has the green light.


----------



## new dog

She needs to get elected first and then slip these things in at a later date. She has to pay back the very rich contributors to her campaign.


----------



## olivaw

Pluto said:


> My understanding is that after the USSR spun apart, Ukraine had 1/3 of the worlds nuclear weapons. In exchange for giving up those weapons Ukraine was supposed to be protected by Nato.
> Now, wasn't Crimea an autonomous state within Ukraine? Didn't Russia recently anex Crimea and allegedly cause a lot of trouble in Ukraine?
> 
> What the heck did NATO do about it? As far as I know, nothing.
> Seems like Russia already has the green light.


I was not aware of any NATO guarantees to Ukraine because it is not a member of NATO. 

Ukraine had 1/3 of the weapons but Russia had operational control. When Ukraine agreed to destroy the nuclear weapons, there was an agreement between a number of nations, including the Russian Federation, to respect Ukraine's existing borders. Putin's Russia violated the agreement by annexing Crimea. In so doing, Russia demonstrated that it could not be trusted with respect to the Balkan states so NATO increase military readiness there. 

We also slapped economic sanctions on Russia and the country's GDP continues to shrink. 

Hopefully that is enough to deter Russia from further unprovoked aggression. If not, NATO will take further action. 

Clinton would continue this policy. Trump - nobody knows.


----------



## mordko

Guarantees did not come from NATO. They came from US, Britain and Russia (!). It was called "The Budapest Memorandum". Britain is fairly impotent and Obama's US did actually do something about the annexation. Obama said "don't do it again or else I will say don't do it again". Sanctions were a slap on the wrist and mostly imposed not for Crimea but for Donbass. Putin has a 4-year cycle for invasions into neighboring countries, Ukraine wasn't his first one. 

Trump indicated that he loves Putin and is already being helped by the FSB. Clinton has already demonstrated that she is a fool who does not understand Putin with the "reset" fiasco. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sudCmrAsF4

On balance, President Clinton is the lesser evil but its a tough choice.


----------



## new dog

I think Trump respects Putin and wants to work with him. Ukraine's democratically elected government was overthrown by the likes of Victoria Nuland and George Soros. After that was done the US Fed took the Ukraine gold overnight for safe keeping which really means Ukraine will never see it again. Also from what I understand is Monsanto would like to grow GMO crops in Ukraine. Ukraine is far worse off now then they were under the old lousy elected government they had. 

Does this mean we trust Putin, of course not, just we don't trust anyone else.


----------



## andrewf

Russian state-backed hackers accessed DNC servers, including embarrassing emails, and strategically release them through Wikileaks to cause maximum harm to Clinton, just prior to the convention. So Russia is directly meddling with the US presidential election, to help Trump. Then there is the matter of Trump's ties to Russia and Putin's cronies, and his bizarre stance on abandoning Nato allies to Russian aggression, and something is deeply suspicious about Trump.

I have no doubt that Trump would be susceptible to Russian influence if elected. He's not as rich as he lets on, and Putin has great sums of untraceable cash at his disposal.


----------



## olivaw

New dog, I don't believe that we can work with Putin. We have to accept that he is working to reassemble an updated version of the USSR. Left unchecked, he will probably invade a number of Russia's neighbouring countries. 

We won't go to war with Russia over Crimea but we will go to war with Russia if it attacks a NATO member such as Poland, Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia. NATO has increased deployment in those nations to demonstrate to Putin that we are serious. Canada is entirely on board. We deployed a modest number of troops to Latvia to run NATO operations there. 

Republicans would normally argue that Clinton is soft on Russia but it will be difficult if Trump is in the middle of a bromance with Vlad Putin. Brighter minds in the Republican party will try to convince Trump to adopt a more hawkish tone but Trump may not listen.


----------



## mrPPincer

new dog said:


> She needs to get elected first and then slip these things in at a later date. She has to pay back the very rich contributors to her campaign.


yep, she needs to pay the bills.

And grease the palms of all her 'friends' to carry on her agenda, which I suspect has more to do with building a clinton empire and very little to do with altruism; which is why I'd guess she didn't chose Bernie, as he'd get in the way.

Am I being bleak?


----------



## new dog

It so bad or bleak from the leaks that even Black Lives Matters is chanting don't vote for Hillary. Many democrats are starting to see the complete and utter fraud she is.


----------



## carverman

andrewf said:


> Then there is the matter of Trump's ties to Russia and Putin's cronies, and his bizarre stance on abandoning Nato allies to Russian aggression, and something is deeply suspicious about Trump.
> 
> I have no doubt that Trump would be susceptible to Russian influence if elected. He's not as rich as he lets on, and Putin has great sums of untraceable cash at his disposal.


For his co-operation with letting Putin get the upper hand on NATO and do what he wants with the former USSR Balkan states,
Putin will let Trump build his hotels (Trump Towers) in Russia. 

Of course, Trump will have to have this set up as an "arms length" venture in order not to run afoul of conflict of interest guidelines if he makes President.:biggrin:




> Russian President Vladimir Putin had kind words for his “stablemate” Donald Trump during an annual end-of-the-year Q&A session in Moscow.
> 
> “[Donald Trump is] a really brilliant and talented person, without any doubt,” [Vladimir] Putin told reporters, according to a translation by Interfax. “It’s not our job to judge his qualities, that’s a job for American voters, but he’s the absolute leader in the presidential race.”
> The GOP frontrunner has been blunt about his plans for defrosting U.S. relations with Russia should he be elected president.
> 
> “He says he wants to move on to a new, more substantial relationship, a deeper relationship with Russia, how can we not welcome that?” he said. “Of course we welcome that.”


----------



## carverman

olivaw said:


> New dog, I don't believe that we can work with Putin. We have to accept that he is working to reassemble an updated version of the USSR. Left unchecked, he will probably invade a number of Russia's neighbouring countries.


Now how did you know of his ultimate master plan? :biggrin:



> We won't go to war with Russia over Crimea but we will go to war with Russia if it attacks a NATO member such as Poland, Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia. NATO has increased deployment in those nations to demonstrate to Putin that we are serious. Canada is entirely on board. We deployed a modest number of troops to Latvia to run NATO operations there.


It all depends on how these Baltic countries succumb to Russia and Putin....first he needs to start an insurrection like he did in Ukraine, destablize the political and economic situation in each of these countries, then have them"ask for Russian intervention for the protection' of their state from terrorists etc. They are very clever on using subversive tactics to make it look that it is not an invasion of any kind or form. 

This would not constitute any reasons for NATO to go to war over an "internal problem" where Russia is just a good ally trying to help the state, "helping" to bring back stability and the need for new elections of a pro Russian (communist) gov't that perhaps favours joining the Russian Federation....aka the former USSR...which Putin would of course welcome with open arms...like Crimea. 



> Republicans would normally argue that Clinton is soft on Russia but it will be difficult if Trump is in the middle of a bromance with Vlad Putin. Brighter minds in the Republican party will try to convince Trump to adopt a more hawkish tone but Trump may not listen.


 Trumps a businessman. He`s not going to cut his own throat by sabre rattling with Putin. While that may have worked in the past during the cold war, today it is all about economics of the ruling class. If Trump can get richer by endorsing Putin and vice versa..it`s a `marriage made in heaven`where both will prosper from that relationship, even with opposite ideologies.


----------



## sags

new dog said:


> It so bad or bleak from the leaks that even Black Lives Matters is chanting don't vote for Hillary. Many democrats are starting to see the complete and utter fraud she is.


I haven't heard that Clinton had anything to do with the emails.

It appears that Debbie Wasserman Shultz had her own agenda at the DNC and has stepped down.

Of course, we don't know what we don't know, but given Clinton's own email problems, I find it doubtful there was any colluding or conspiracy between Clinton and Shultz through emails and they would have been in contact through other ways.

If Clinton left an email trail, then she too dumb to be a successful criminal.


----------



## mordko

new dog said:


> I think Trump respects Putin and wants to work with him. Ukraine's democratically elected government was overthrown by the likes of Victoria Nuland and George Soros. After that was done the US Fed took the Ukraine gold overnight for safe keeping which really means Ukraine will never see it again. Also from what I understand is Monsanto would like to grow GMO crops in Ukraine. Ukraine is far worse off now then they were under the old lousy elected government they had.
> 
> Does this mean we trust Putin, of course not, just we don't trust anyone else.


Conspiracy theories mixed with anti-science bull and more conspiracy theories. Let me guess... A Trump supporter.


----------



## Pluto

mrPPincer said:


> yep, she needs to pay the bills.
> 
> And grease the palms of all her 'friends' to carry on her agenda, which I suspect has more to do with building a clinton empire and very little to do with altruism; which is why I'd guess she didn't chose Bernie, as he'd get in the way.
> 
> Am I being bleak?


Here are some donors she has to keep happy:

Haim & Cheryl Saban $10 million (financial services, entertainment, and media)
George Soros $7 million (hedge fund)
James Simons $7 million (hedge fund)
JB & Mary Kathryn Pritzker $6.5 million (venture capital)
Donald Sussman $4 million (hedge fund)
Laure L. Woods $3.31 million (Laurel Foundation)
Daniel Abraham $3 million (Slim-Fast)
Herbert Sandler $2.5 million (banker)
David E. Shaw $2.25 million (hedge fund)
Fred Eychaner $2 million (Chairman of Newsweb Corporation)
Henry & Marcha Laufer $2 million (Renaissance Technologies)
Jon Stryker $1.5 million (Environmental Activist)
Pat Stryker $1.5 million (Bohemian Foundation)
Barbara Lee $1,407,904 (Women’s Advocate)
Jeffrey Katzenberg $1 million (Dreamworks)
John Steven Mostyn $1 million (Lawyer)
Bernard Schwarts $1 million (BLS Investments)
Steven Spielberg $1 million (Hollywood Director)
Thomas Tull $1 million (Legendary Pictures)
Stephen Silberstein $800,000 (Innovative Interfaces)


----------



## SMK

Spielberg only $1 million? George Clooney did better than that. :biggrin: 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...oney-hillary-clinton-fundraiser-obscene-money


----------



## carverman

Pluto said:


> Here are some donors she has to keep happy:


and more than likely, that ain't all.

That`s roughly about 97 million of contributions to her election fund...a mere pittance for the Clintons, who are probably well established billionaires...after all, in the US, you have to be a multi-millionaire to even think about running for president.




> *Hillary Clinton:* Hillary has a huge network for fundraising (in part due to her connection with Bill Clinton). She has brought in the most out of the front runners for the candidacy.
> 
> Former Secretary of State Clinton has raised $*77.5 million, and spent $44.5 million*.


Wonder how big Trumps election fund is?...... and how many billions he is worth now? , not to mention some secret contributions from the Putin gang to help his "buddy".



> So far, all of the presidential candidates combined have raised $518.4 million, and they have spent $153.6 million. They still have a lot of cash on hand, but they will be raising many more millions (likely billions) of dollars.



http://www.investopedia.com/article...w-much-will-it-cost-become-president-2016.asp


----------



## olivaw

Both US political parties accept donations. 

They say that you can't trust the polls during the conventions but FiveThirtyEight has the odds at:
Clinton 52.4% chance of winning (60.1% using their Poll Plus forecast method)
Trump 47.5%

Despite Hillary Clinton's lead, it is becoming clear that she as just as unpopular as Donald Trump.


----------



## sags

Popular votes don't win the election though. It is based on electoral votes, and Clinton has big leads in the heavily populated States with the most votes.

Texas has 38 electoral votes and is a Republican stronghold, which Romney won in 2012.

It will be interesting to see what impact it has in Texas that Ted Cruz, George W. Bush and George H. Bush aren't supporting Trump.

Trump is also sparring with highly popular Republican politicians in their home states...........Mitt Romney, John McCain and John Kasich.

Trump also needs to recapture Florida, which George W. Bush won and gave him the victory over Gore. Obama won it in 2012.

There are a lot of Latino voters in Florida, and Bush barely beat Gore (hanging shads and all that). Trump doesn't poll well among Latino voters.

Clinton's VP pick Tim Kaine is also a highly popular politician in Virginia, which is considered a "swing state".

Trump has a tough road to the White House gathering in the electoral votes needed.

The enemies he has made among influential Republicans and their supporters, may sink Trump in the end.

View attachment 11049


There are 538 electoral votes and it takes 270 to win the Presidency.

http://www.270towin.com/


----------



## olivaw

Forget his enemies within the Republican party, Trump messed with the USA Freedom Kids. :hopelessness:


----------



## mrPPincer

sags said:


> Trump also needs to recapture Florida, which George W. Bush won and gave him the victory over Gore. Obama won it in 2012.
> 
> There are a lot of Latino voters in Florida, and Bush barely beat Gore (hanging shads and all that). Trump doesn't poll well among Latino voters.


Latino is a broad 'paintbrush' so to speak.
From what I've heard, a lot of the Cuban-Americans actually like the guy.


----------



## gibor365

In one of the posts olivaw said that americans like Justin T...
I asked my mom to create survey below on public survey engine tellwut... 
Indeed JT beat Putin, Merkel and Bibi 
Results are below:

Survey Name: It's not possible, but would you like to see US President who?
Start Date: 07/26/2016
End Date: 07/27/2016
Status: Ended
Last Complete: 07/27/2016 00:00:00
Votes Received: 2145, Guests: 1
Category: Politics
Privacy: Public
Results: Open

Powered by:
1.	Would you like to see Vladimir Putin as US President?
Yes | 6.53% | 140 votes
No | 72.21% | 1,549 votes
Undecided | 6.25% | 134 votes
Not Applicable | 15.01% | 322 votes

2.	Would you like to see Bibi Netaniahy as US President?
Yes | 6.95% | 149 votes
No | 62.66% | 1,344 votes
Undecided | 8.34% | 179 votes
Not Applicable | 22.05% | 473 votes

3.	Would you like to see Angela Merkel as US President?
Yes | 8.76% | 188 votes
No | 58.97% | 1,265 votes
Undecided | 10.82% | 232 votes
Not Applicable | 21.45% | 460 votes

4.	Would you like to see Justin Trudeau as US President?
Yes | 16.18% | 347 votes
No | 54.87% | 1,177 votes
Undecided | 11.56% | 248 votes
Not Applicable | 17.39% | 373 votes


----------



## sags

Some of the issues in Florida that affect the local voters directly are climate change, gun background checks, and raising the minimum wage.

Standard Republican policy is weak in all these areas, but Trump doesn't seem to feel obligated to follow typical Republican policy so it could be interesting.


----------



## olivaw

gibor365 said:


> In one of the posts olivaw said that americans like Justin T...
> I asked my mom to create survey below on public survey engine tellwut...
> Indeed JT beat Putin, Merkel and Bibi
> Results are below:


16.18%. - sweeeet


----------



## andrewf

carverman said:


> Now how did you know of his ultimate master plan? :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> It all depends on how these Baltic countries succumb to Russia and Putin....first he needs to start an insurrection like he did in Ukraine, destablize the political and economic situation in each of these countries, then have them"ask for Russian intervention for the protection' of their state from terrorists etc. They are very clever on using subversive tactics to make it look that it is not an invasion of any kind or form.
> 
> This would not constitute any reasons for NATO to go to war over an "internal problem" where Russia is just a good ally trying to help the state, "helping" to bring back stability and the need for new elections of a pro Russian (communist) gov't that perhaps favours joining the Russian Federation....aka the former USSR...which Putin would of course welcome with open arms...like Crimea.
> 
> 
> 
> Trumps a businessman. He`s not going to cut his own throat by sabre rattling with Putin. While that may have worked in the past during the cold war, today it is all about economics of the ruling class. If Trump can get richer by endorsing Putin and vice versa..it`s a `marriage made in heaven`where both will prosper from that relationship, even with opposite ideologies.


That's a very fine line for them to walk. Fomenting instability in Ukraine is one thing, doing it in a NATO country could be construed as an act of war, particularly if the goal is to remove the anti-Russia government.


----------



## new dog

mordko said:


> Conspiracy theories mixed with anti-science bull and more conspiracy theories. Let me guess... A Trump supporter.


Of course I don't have boots on the ground much like anyone else here to totally verify anything. 

Of course this comment is a huge mistake for you to make because you are now wide open on all your comments for the likes of Olivaw and so on. You better hope no one sees your comment here and uses it against the stuff you have written down on this forum.


----------



## mordko

^ No worries - I have deliberately used the genetically modified invisibility ointment on my keyboard so that only you could see that comment. Very potent stuff but don't tell anyone - let's keep it between you and me.


----------



## sags

This ad released by the Democrats should give Americans some pause about voting for Donald Trump.






Democrats, Republicans, military leaders. There is a great concern about Trump being given the power to command the US military.

He can screw up economics. He can mess immigration all up..........and people would be angry and protesting.

But if he screws up and uses bad judgement militarily, the consequences may be unthinkable.

Is there anyone in the US military or who has an extensive military or security background who "doesn't" believe Trump lacks the experience, knowledge and temperament to serve as the President of the US and commander in chief of all the US armed forces ?

Just today, Trump made remarks inviting Russia to seek and release hacked information. He later confirmed it by expanding it to China and others.

His own VP Mike Pence immediately backtracked on the statements. He must wonder what he has got himself into.

Trump doesn't appear to really have a grasp on the consequences of things he says off the top of his head.

He blurts out things, or tweets them out, and then partially pulls them back or modifies them later.

The President of the US just can't do that.


----------



## gibor365

It's really funny 


> As the controversy continues to swirl around a likely-Russian hack of the Democratic National Committee, Trump responded to a reporter’s question at a press conference Wednesday by inviting Russia to do him another favor: collect and leak the emails that Clinton deleted from the private server she ran during her time as Secretary of State. “Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you’ll be rewarded mightily by our press,” he said. He later circled back to the same theme, telling reporters that “If Russia or China or any other country has those emails, to be honest with you, I’d love to see them.”


https://www.wired.com/2016/07/trump-invites-russian-cyber-spying-unprecedented-remarks/


----------



## sags

An unbelievable night for the Democratic convention.

The lineup of speakers was outstanding, and Tim Kaine, Joe Biden and others delivered fantastic speeches, but Barrack Obama is probably one of the best orators in history.

It was said earlier on the news, that Obama wrote the speech himself, which makes it even more impressive.

Anyone who didn't catch his speech and wants to see it............here is a link.

It was a speech I believe, that will be preserved in history along with the others already residing there.

The Democrats have presented an optimistic view of America compared to Trump's dire outlook.

Many Republicans took to Twitter to voice their dismay..........not at the Democrats, but that their own convention was so pessimistic and dark in comparison.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-3-watch-barack-obama-joe-biden-speak-w431259


----------



## gibor365




----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Of course I don't have boots on the ground much like anyone else here to totally verify anything.
> 
> Of course this comment is a huge mistake for you to make because you are now wide open on all your comments for the likes of Olivaw and so on. You better hope no one sees your comment here and uses it against the stuff you have written down on this forum.


"the likes of Olivaw"? Excuse me, but there is nobody like me. My therapist told me.


----------



## new dog

You are unique and hold your own on here that is for sure.


----------



## gibor365




----------



## olivaw

Sags provided the link to the DNC proceedings and a good synopsis in his post above. 

Here is President Obama's speech.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aip0BAWrdLw


----------



## mordko

Trump calling on the Russians to interfere in the elections and to spy on Hillary is the new low. While in the past US communists did collaborate with and spy for the foreign actor (USSR), at least they didn't do so openly and even tried to deny it for quite a while.


----------



## SMK

Nothing less than a great speech had been expected from Obama. Too bad Biden didn't enter the race, I think he would have beaten the much disliked Clinton.

Will all the imploration voices last night, some sounded desperate with good reason, and Obama's plea to "carry" Hillary be enough, that is the question. Let's hope so.


----------



## Pluto

Apparently Trump has some support from European leaders: 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...tor-orban-says-donald-trump-better-for-europe


----------



## new dog

Trump will help some European countries stem their refugee flow as he will be a supporter of this. He will do the same in the US and also from what I heard in his speech he wants to work with Israel he calls his greatest ally. But I do say you never know an ally today a problem tomorrow depending how things go. 

Hillary and the DNC are all talk and then do whatever the heck they want to do when they get in power. Obama is just like Russia and that is regime change and putting in their puppets to serve. Trump is for sure a wild card so we don't know what he will do except maybe talk to Russia and try to back us down from a war that nobody will win. The world is closing in on economic collapse, so of course we must get ready and push for war because that is what we get when the economies collapse.

Deutsche bank is near collapse and when it does it will bring everything down so you need to do like Obama and push countries, so we can get to war when required.


----------



## carverman

gibor365 said:


> [video youtube Bill Maher quotes Trump


Funny how late night show comedy hosts pick up on all of Trump's ideosyncrasies of shooting it out of his mouth (***?) when he doesn't have time to think about what he actually saying. 

If Trump was on a police force, he would probably shoot first and ask questions later. I'm not crazy about "money bags" Clinton either, but lets hope that history is the better judge over these
two, and the lesser of the two evils..corruption by money or ignorance does not prevail. 

It would be good if they could turn back the clock and get more suitable candidates, but it's too late at this stage in the presidential race game. Hopefully there are those out there with some powerful inner circles that don't listen to the mudslinging and political rhetoric spewing forth.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Trump calling on the Russians to interfere in the elections and to spy on Hillary is the new low.


He made a joke about Hillary's deleted emails and a bunch of people took it seriously.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> Nothing less than a great speech had been expected from Obama. Too bad Biden didn't enter the race, I think he would have beaten the much disliked Clinton.
> 
> Will all the imploration voices last night, some sounded desperate with good reason, and Obama's plea to "carry" Hillary be enough, that is the question. Let's hope so.


I don't know why people think Obama is such a good speaker. He comes across as a self-promoting cheerleader. In fact, someone counted and found that he referred to himself or his administration a whopping 119 times during his speech:

https://news.grabien.com/story.php?id=414


----------



## SMK

Some truth to both above posts.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> This ad released by the Democrats should give Americans some pause about voting for Donald Trump.
> 
> 
> Democrats, Republicans, military leaders. There is a great concern about Trump being given the power to command the US military.
> 
> He can screw up economics. He can mess immigration all up..........and people would be angry and protesting.
> 
> *But if he screws up and uses bad judgement militarily, the consequences may be unthinkable.
> *
> Is there anyone in the US military or who has an extensive military or security background who "doesn't" believe Trump lacks the experience, knowledge and temperament to serve as the President of the US and commander in chief of all the US armed forces ?
> The President of the US just can't do that.


While the president of the US is commander-in-chief of the armed forces, he cannot by himself just issue a presidential order to go and invade or bomb a country. He has to consult first with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and get them to agree to what he wants to have the US do militarily and in some cases get agreement from the
US Congress as well before military action is undertaken or troops deployed.

Even George W.Bush, another Repubican president, who knew absolutely nothing about miltary solutions or the aftermath and consequences, had to get the Joint Chiefs to agree in order to invade Iraq and kick Saddam out on the pretext of WMD...
a concocted story based on false intelligence, as it was later revealed AFTER the Iraq invasion. 

But first they went after Bin Laden, hiding out in Afghanistan, who they blamed for organizing
the 9/11 attacks. Of course, they sought "permission"..rubber stamping from the UN security council to justify invading Afghanistan..
but even if they didn't get permission from the UN security council they would have found some way to go after Bin Laden covertly, but it was convenient to use the UN mandate, because they
could rely on other countries (like Canada and Britain and others) to go in as a "coalition of the willing".

With Iraq,nobody was willing to join them, so they went in alone and history has told us now what happens when the US meddles with countries that should have been left alone to deal with their own internal problems.

Kosovo was another one. NATO intervened in the conflict because of the massacres and ethnic cleansing.



> On 9 June 1998, US President Bill Clinton declared a "national emergency" (state of emergency) due to the "unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States" imposed by Yugoslavia and Serbia over the Kosovo War.[113]
> Bill Clinton (1946-), the 42nd U.S. president, served in office from 1993 to 2001. Prior to that, the* Arkansas native and Democrat *was governor of his home state.


So as we can read SAGS, it doesn't really matter whether the President is a Democrat or Republican, just about any international incident that the US deems to be detrimental to the overall well being of the United States economically or from a security point of view, can be escalated further by those that control the real power.


----------



## humble_pie

SMK said:


> Nothing less than a great speech had been expected from Obama. Too bad Biden didn't enter the race, I think he would have beaten the much disliked Clinton.



what does "liked" biden have to do with "disliked" clinton, though.

post-election, the only issues that will matter to canadians will be US foreign policy, US military policy & US trade policy.

there's no reason to believe these would have been any different under joe biden than they will be under hillary clinton. If anything, possibly slightly more enlightened under clinton. Joe Biden's family excursions in ukraine did not go particularly well.

another example is Keystone excel. It's thought that clinton might be more disposed to approve the pipeline than either her predecessor or his vice president. If so, her decision would have massive positive effect upon canada.


.


----------



## SMK

Perhaps if Biden had been the nominee, that chances of defeating Trump would have been stronger even.


----------



## humble_pie

.

in my view, Putin does not crush foreign correspondent Zakaria in the least.

on the contrary, putin oversteps every boundary of international diplomacy by smirking repeatedly how he will refrain from addressing US domestic issues. But then, a mere two seconds later, the russian leader promptly proceeds to attack the US on those exact same issues.

take the US system of vote by electoral college. Putin blatantly sneers that this means there is no democracy in america, then immediately retreats back into mouthing his artificial script about how he will never address US domestic issues.

meanwhile, some americans are calling for Trump to be cited as a US traitor, having openly urged russia - as Trump did - to steal US state & military secrets via internet hacking.
.



gibor365 said:


>


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> meanwhile, some americans are calling for Trump to be cited as a US traitor, having openly urged russia - as Trump did - to steal US state & military secrets via internet hacking.
> .


Trump made a joke, and it appears that "some" Americans either can't take a joke, or they just twist things around to suit their agenda. At no point did Trump tell Russia to steal US secrets...he simply stated that if they have those emails, then the press would love it if they released them.

But, why let facts get in the way??


----------



## gibor365

bass player said:


> Trump made a joke, and it appears that "some" Americans either can't take a joke, or they just twist things around to suit their agenda. At no point did Trump tell Russia to steal US secrets...he simply stated that if they have those emails, then the press would love it if they released them.
> 
> But, why let facts get in the way??


True! Even if Trump would be serious, he never asked Russians to hack anything, just publish what was already hacked. 
P.S. I'd like to read some of the deleted email...should be freakin' interesting.


----------



## gibor365

Aside politics  if Trump wins, I'm going significantly increase my positions in Russian stocks via DEM


> *Donald Trump said Wednesday he would consider recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and lifting the sanctions against the country if he’s elected president.
> *
> At a wide-ranging news conference, Trump said he “would be looking into that” when asked about his stance on Crimea and Russia. The Crimean Peninsula has been part of Ukraine for decades, but Russian President Vladimir Putin annexed the territory in March 2014 after a popular revolt toppled Kiev’s pro-Russian government.
> 
> The United States, along with the European Union, has refused to recognize the annexation or the referendum legitimizing it, and has enforced sanctions on Russian state banks and corporations.
> 
> Crimea, historically a popular tourist destination for Russians seeking out its subtropical climate, formally became part of the Ukrainian satellite state of the Soviet Union in 1954, and joined independent Ukraine after it left the Soviet bloc in 1991.


http://www.politico.eu/article/dona...as-russian-territory-lifting-sanctions-putin/


----------



## bass player

gibor365 said:


> P.S. I'd like to read some of the deleted email...should be freakin' interesting.


I'm sure more will come out when further WikiLeaks are released.

The Dems have realized that they can't get away with pretending that the emails don't exist, so the only strategy left is to try to deflect attention away by accusing Trump of being a traitor.

It's ironic that the Dems are now accusing Trump of endangering national security by suggesting that Russia release the emails if they have then, yet all along Hillary claimed that every single one of the emails was personal in nature. So, if the emails were all personal, then there is no national security risk, but if there were secret government emails, then Hillary lied. 

Hoisted by her own petard??


----------



## gibor365

It's becoming more interesting 
*Donald Trump reiterates he will only help Nato countries that pay 'fair share'*
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/27/donald-trump-nato-isolationist

Apparently , only 5 countries paid: US, UK, Greece  , Estonia  , Poland. Others on theri own...


> Hillary Clinton said: ‘We will protect our allies at all cost.’ Well how the hell can you get money if you’re gonna say that? Now we need money. We have massive, massive deficits.”


Interesting that Canada didn't pay either.... so we have billions to spend on Africa, climate change, refugees .... but not on NATO lol . imho canada should get out from NATO at all , NORAD is enough to protect us.... or you seriously think that NATO members like Turkey will defend us?!


----------



## gibor365

> Hillary claimed that every single one of the emails was personal in nature.


 another question what thousands of her personal emails did on Democratic National Committee’s computer servers?! Did she discuss only stripers and underwear?!


----------



## mordko

gibor365 said:


> another question what thousands of her personal emails did on Democratic National Committee’s computer servers?! Did she discuss only stripers and underwear?!


They didn't do anything on DNC servers. It's Trump talking utter bullshit - as per usual. Russians broke into DNC systems and released emails but none of them were Hillary's.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Trump made a joke, and it appears that "some" Americans either can't take a joke, or they just twist things around to suit their agenda. At no point did Trump tell Russia to steal US secrets...he simply stated that if they have those emails, then the press would love it if they released them.



that was no joke. That was the goon talking once again, as he has on so many other issues.

do you sincerely believe that nations do *not* already hold as many foreign state messages as their diplomatic & military intelligence networks have been able to pick up?

of course they do. Please do not be naiive. It is precisely in calling for the *release* of these messages that the traitorous action occurs.


.


----------



## olivaw

I don't think that it will be terribly useful to call Trump a traitor over this. He said he was just kidding and there is no evidence that he was working with the Russian government hackers. 

To me, the more interesting question is why is Russia so eager to elect Trump? 

The timing of the release worked. Obama gave a brilliant speech last night but these few irrelevant emails have become a distraction from it.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> To me, the more interesting question is why is Russia so eager to elect Trump?



they need to eat him for breakfast

all that burning of imported food from troublesome ukraine & european countries that have imposed sanctions is causing starvation in russia


.


----------



## gibor365

olivaw said:


> To me, the more interesting question is why is Russia so eager to elect Trump?


Read post 224 above
*Donald Trump said Wednesday he would consider recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and lifting the sanctions against the country if he’s elected president.
*


----------



## gibor365

Haha ") do they really expect that Bibi admits that he supports Trump :biggrin:


> Jerusalem denied on Thursday that Israel's leadership favored Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton in the US presidential race, following a Washington Post story quoting former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani as saying that was indeed the case.
> The Washington Post on Wednesday quoted Giuliani, who was in Israel in the Spring and met with Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders, as saying, “I’ve talked to the members of the Israeli government at the highest levels. I know who they want elected here. It’s not Hillary Clinton. It’s not Obama 3
> Giuliani was further quoted as saying that the Israeli leadership is “politically aware enough to know that if Hillary gets elected, she is going to go further to her left, to protect her left flank against Elizabeth Warren. They know she’s going to start the two-state solution thing again, cave in to the Palestinians. They realize Donald Trump can say Islamic terrorism, can stand up to it. So there’s no question he would be better for the state of Israel than Hillary.”
> Trump said of presidential candidates visiting Israel before the elections, “but I don't do things that are traditional. But I have great support from Israel. I will back Israel 100 percent. I would like to go there. But I have great relationships as you know, to the people in Israel.”
> Trump added, “And by the way, Obama in my opinion is the single worst thing politically speaking that's ever happened to Israel. He has been a disaster for Israel.”


http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Po...-government-prefers-Trump-over-Clinton-462619


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> that was no joke. That was the goon talking once again, as he has on so many other issues.
> 
> do you sincerely believe that nations do *not* already hold as many foreign state messages as their diplomatic & military intelligence networks have been able to pick up?
> 
> of course they do. Please do not be naiive. It is precisely in calling for the *release* of these messages that the traitorous action occurs.
> 
> 
> .


How is it traitorous if her emails only contained personal information? Remember...Hillary publicly stated that all those emails were personal. Personal emails have nothing to with national security or traitorous actions. Don't you agree?


----------



## humble_pie

gibor365 said:


> Read post 224 above
> *Donald Trump said Wednesday he would consider recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and lifting the sanctions against the country if he’s elected president.
> *



the above statement is misleading.

gibor's source article in cited message # 24 upthread said only that Donald Trump replied to a question at a news conference by saying that he would be "looking into" US policies on crimea.

under the current democratic administration, US policies on crimea are under review 365/24. You can safely bet your entire lifetime savings that the greater russia desk in Foggy Bottom is "looking into" crimea night & day. 

the source article did not quote the journo's question nor any part of Trump's answer that dealt with US sanctions against russia. Inclusion of the sanctions reference in the headline appears to be an editorial mistake.

one has to doubt that any warmth moscow might display towards donald trump has anything to do with so picayune a matter as crimea. Rather, russia would see a Trump election as triggering a marked decline of the US as the leading global power. This would be russia's desired scenario.


.


----------



## new dog

People knowing the truth and criminality of their elected officials is traitorous. This is why elected officials get away with so many things and we the people suffer. Rules and laws are for us and not for them.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> How is it traitorous if her emails only contained personal information? Remember...Hillary publicly stated that all those emails were personal. Personal emails have nothing to with national security or traitorous actions. Don't you agree?



no, i don't agree .each:

egging on a hostile foreign power to release stolen documents intercepted from an important official is traitorous. It wouldn't matter if all they had was her weekly grocery shopping list.

.


----------



## gibor365

new dog said:


> People knowing the truth and criminality of their elected officials is traitorous. This is why elected officials get away with so many things and we the people suffer. Rules and laws are for us and not for them.


So, Snowden is traitor or hero?!


----------



## SMK

A hero to some, a traitor to others.  What do you think the split is?


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> they need to eat him for breakfast
> 
> all that burning of imported food from troublesome ukraine & european countries that have imposed sanctions is causing starvation in russia
> 
> 
> .


Some women have said that Trump is a pig. Perhaps Putin wants to wrestle him. 

Putin tried to maintain the image of a major player on the world stage but hacking the DNC and releasing a few emails from the chair seems desperate. Perhaps he needs attention.

Did you see Obama's speech last night?


----------



## mordko

SMK said:


> A hero to some, a traitor to others.  What do you think the split is?


There are only 2 qualities which Trump has displayed consistently, without changing position on a daily basis:

- Misogyny. 

- Love for conspiracies (Obama - muslim, not born in America, father of Ted Kruz killed Kennedy, Scalia was murdered, climate change does not exist and so on. 

This is the dividing line between supporters and opponents.


----------



## sags

I read some of the Wikileaks DNC emails and it is boring.

I didn't see anything much beyond a compilation of news reports from different media on what all the candidates were saying on the stump.

I am sure there must be some "juicy" stuff in there, as Debbie Wasserman Schultz stepped down, but I will have to wait for the media to plow through them all to find them.


----------



## olivaw

gibor365 said:


> another question what thousands of her personal emails did on Democratic National Committee’s computer servers?! Did she discuss only stripers and underwear?!


People have personal communications and nobody deserves to have their unguarded personal communication scrutinized by individuals who will do everything in their power use it against them. Imagine she sends an email to Bill that says something like "Barack was a jerk to me today" or "my head hurts". The RNC would try to turn it into a major scandal.


----------



## mordko

The "juicy" stuff was emails within DNC suggesting to expose that Sanders is an atheist to damage him. 

There were also peculiar emails making fun of a suggestion by Wasserman Schultz that a statement should be issued on the Holocaust Remembrance day.


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> The "juicy" stuff was emails within DNC suggesting to expose that Sanders is an atheist to damage him.
> 
> There were also peculiar emails making fun of a suggestion by Wasserman Schultz that a statement should be issued on the Holocaust Remembrance day.



would you be having reputable sources for these statements, though? 

ottomh they seem a tiny tad too much mordkodronetalk .:biggrin:


----------



## mordko

Love the smug confidence of a complete ignoramus. 

https://theintercept.com/2016/07/22...ernie-sanderss-religious-beliefs-against-him/

http://www.jta.org/2016/07/26/news-...st-remembrance-day-statement-in-leaked-emails


----------



## new dog

gibor365 said:


> So, Snowden is traitor or hero?!


I think it depends what he is releasing. If he is releasing top secret stuff that would hurt the country that would be traitorous I would think. Otherwise he was forced to go to Russia because of whistle blowing and that wouldn't be traitorous.


----------



## sags

Neither of those emails were from Wasserman Shultz though. 

A high ranking DNC member, who should be fired for suggesting planting questions on any candidate to discredit them, and a low level staffer who questioned Wasserman's request of a statement on the Holocaust.........is no reason for Shultz to step down.

And lastly, how stupid are smart people ? People must be fairly intelligent to get these jobs and yet don't seem to realize they have be careful what they email.


----------



## olivaw

Email exchanges are frequent and ongoing. Many individuals, particularly busy senior individuals, tend to treat them like transitory verbal communication. In truth they are written correspondence. They are usually permanent; they are seldom secure and they are not private.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> Neither of those emails were from Wasserman Shultz though.
> 
> A high ranking DNC member, who should be fired for suggesting planting questions on any candidate to discredit them, and a low level staffer who questioned Wasserman's request of a statement on the Holocaust.........is no reason for Shultz to step down.


It's the first email that was the reason for resignation. Bernie went on and on about DNC being unfair to him. The email confirmed there was bias within the organization. Wasserman took the bullet. It wasn't her email but she was the person in charge. 

The second email is not part of the scandal but it's still interesting because it shows what kind of people Dems have in senior roles. It's not very different from the attitude that prevails on the Daily *****.


----------



## olivaw

A powerful speech by the father of a fallen soldier at the DNC.


----------



## dubmac

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/polls.html?_r=0
this is quite a good source of information and the "Who will win" http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/presidential-polls-forecast.html link is quite informative.
as well as http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/


----------



## sags

Trump has found a novel way to broaden his policies to include everyone.............he just keeps changing them to accommodate whoever he is speaking to.

He was in favor of banning all Muslims from entering the US. He then softened that policy by saying he would only ban Muslims from known terrorist countries.

Now he is saying he is considering broadening the policy again and including Germany and France, presumably because they experienced terror attacks.

Up...down....all around....nobody knows what Trump's policies are because as he tweeted to Megyn Kelly of Fox News.....they are a secret.

_You have no idea what my strategy on ISIS is, and neither does ISIS (a good thing). Please get your facts straight - thanks. @megynkelly_

Trump says his quote on releasing Clintons emails was all a joke, but he tweeted it also.

Did Trump forget to edit or delete the tweet........or at least change the exclamation mark to a smiley ?

He is also talking about the emails on Clinton's private servers.........not the DNC hacked emails.

_If Russia or any other country or person has Hillary Clinton's 33,000 illegally deleted emails, perhaps they should share them with the FBI!_

It is kind of funny. Trump may be _*illegally*_ asking that Clinton's *illegally* deleted emails be *illegally* released if they were* illegally* hacked.

Lots of "illegally" floating around there.


----------



## sags

Interesting information Dubmac.

Trump and Clinton are virtually tied in the popular vote, but Clinton is way ahead in the electoral votes that determine the outcome.

All the main street media talk about is popular polls. 

They rarely mention electoral votes, while other than a "reflection" of the overall mood of the electorate, popular voting polls don't determine who wins.

A split.........with Trump winning the popular vote but Clinton winning the Presidency may end up with another 4 years of gridlock in the US.

If Trump loses, one thing is for sure. The Republican Party will be in chaos as different factions jockey to lead the party and steer it forward.


----------



## humble_pie

^^


re the electoral college votes, yes they will be key. Somewhere in dubmac's informative poll forecasting links i glimpsed that there are supposedly only 4 states whose electoral colleges are still non-aligned or have not declared. Arizona & minnesota were said to be 2 of these.

sags et al, if anyone stumbles on the full list of undecided electoral college states, could he please post it.










.


----------



## My Own Advisor

I used to think it would be Clinton. _ Easily.
_
I've realized the American public is more like the movie Idiocracy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBvIweCIgwk

Trump will win. Pathetic.


----------



## Pluto

olivaw said:


> A powerful speech by the father of a fallen soldier at the DNC.


I always thought Trump was over the top on banning them. 

Mainstream Muslims are usually very quiet. they don't speak out and explain their religion and views, leaving much to the imagination. I don't understand why Muslims don't, via their own organizations, speak out against the violence of the few.


----------



## SMK

Pluto said:


> I don't understand why Muslims don't, via their own organizations, speak out against the violence of the few.


They actually do, but perhaps not enough.


----------



## mordko

SMK said:


> They actually do, but perhaps not enough.


They speak out alright, but the question is what these Muslim organizations actually say. Muslim Association of Canada donates to terrorists. Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK donates to Holocaust Deniers and promotes conspiracy theories. Muslim Canadian Congress split because too many in the leadership expressed support for the 17 Toronto terrorists and designated terrorist organizations. British TellMAMA promotes 9/11 conspiracies. 

There are also organizations like the Quillam Foundation and people like Tareq Fatah, who oppose islamism. Both have been threatened and considered as traitors and unislamic within the broader community.


----------



## bass player

Pluto said:


> Mainstream Muslims are usually very quiet. they don't speak out and explain their religion and views, leaving much to the imagination. I don't understand why Muslims don't, via their own organizations, speak out against the violence of the few.


Perhaps they do not speak out because they support what is happening. It may be true that many of the silent ones would not have chosen violence to achieve the goal of Muslim supremacy, but they still believe strongly enough in the end result to be silent while the violent ones do the dirty work.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Perhaps they do not speak out because they support what is happening. It may be true that many of the silent ones would not have chosen violence to achieve the goal of Muslim supremacy, but they still believe strongly enough in the end result to be silent while the violent ones do the dirty work.


As Pluto said, they are usually quiet. I don't think it is fair to assume that most support terrorism. I have a Muslim friend who very much opposes terrorism but rarely discusses it. He knows that his words will be scrutinized for signs of support for terrorists. A wrong word here, a bad turn of phrase there and he will be slapped with the terrorist label. He'll also be judged on what he didn't say.


----------



## SMK

mordko said:


> They speak out alright, but the question is what these Muslim organizations actually say. Muslim Association of Canada donates to terrorists. Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK donates to Holocaust Deniers and promotes conspiracy theories. Muslim Canadian Congress split because too many in the leadership expressed support for the 17 Toronto terrorists and designated terrorist organizations. British TellMAMA promotes 9/11 conspiracies.
> 
> There are also organizations like the Quillam Foundation and people like Tareq Fatah, who oppose islamism. Both have been threatened and considered as traitors and unislamic within the broader community.


All that is true, too!


----------



## carverman

Shouldn't the title of this thread read: "Who won't win the US Election?"



> After officially securing the nomination, Hillary Clinton is the most likely next President of the United States. I’d put her chances at 60%. Yet, the Republican nominee, Donald Trump is a unique candidate, and a total historical wild card, so anything can happen in 2016.





> One of the biggest problems statistically for Hillary Clinton, is her Political Party.* Traditionally, after a political party holds the presidency for 2 terms, it will switch for the other Party.* Barack Obama and the Democrats won the last 2 elections, and a lot of people are talking about wanting “change” again. The last time the same party won 3 elections in a row was with the Republican party nearly 30 years ago, with George H.W. Bush following Ronald Reagan. Before that, it wasn’t until FDR in 1940.



Will Trump "trump" Clinton's chances of winning the White House, being a dark horse candidate with roughly his chances at 40% of getting there?
Or will the above traditional system of switching parties (as often happens in Canada) prevail and Trump
gets it through voter dissatisfaction with Obama and the Democrats?


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> As Pluto said, they are usually quiet. I don't think it is fair to assume that most support terrorism. I have a Muslim friend who very much opposes terrorism but rarely discusses it. He knows that his words will be scrutinized for signs of support for terrorists. A wrong word here, a bad turn of phrase there and he will be slapped with the terrorist label. He'll also be judged on what he didn't say.


In other words, Muslims who oppose terrorism and Westerners who oppose terrorism need to be silent to avoid offending the politically correct faction that go out of their way to call people racist or Islamaphobic at the drop of a hat unless certain allowable phrasing is not used. Or, even it the "right" wording is used, some people will still be called racist or Islamaphobic. 

That puts those who oppose terrorism in a no win situation....and that's what leads to media suppression or downplaying of attacks, such as what happened in Cologne on New Year's eve going unreported for several days. Had it been a bunch of white "good old boys" that sexually assaulted hundreds of women, the outrage would have been unsurpassed and we'd still be reading headlines about it. But, it was immigrants, who are a "protected" group of the left, and the rules are different for them.


----------



## gibor365

I just don't get how Trump is in virtual tie with Hillary  . Muslims , immigrants, sexual minorities, blacks etc oppose Trump... so who supports him?!


----------



## bass player

gibor365 said:


> I just don't get how Trump is in virtual tie with Hillary  . Muslims , immigrants, sexual minorities, blacks etc oppose Trump... so who supports him?!


Trump has nothing against legal immigrants, just the illegal ones. Many legal immigrant do support Trump, and so far the illegal ones are not yet allowed to vote, so their opinion is meaningless. Many black people are starting to figure out that the Dems only want their vote and will say and do anything to get that vote....and that includes promoting racial disorder every chance they get so that they can continue to promise how they will "fix" racial inequity. 

Trump has support because he mocks what many Americans hate about Washington. As the saying goes: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".


----------



## sags

I read somewhere that the party that led the polls following their convention went on to win the Presidency in the last 11 elections.

In US politics one gaffe can make all the difference.

In 1988, Democratic nominee Michael Dukakis and the famous "tank photo" of him riding around in a tank with a helmet that was too big and a goofy grin.

In 2004, Democratic nominee Howard Dean's........."yee haw" moment during a speech that was caught on video.

In 2008, Republican VP Sarah Palin's comments on sharing the air with Putin and her loopy interviews

In 2012, Republican Mitt Romney's "binders full of women" remark and the secret video of him speaking to a group of wealthy people.

We await the great "moment" in 2016. Will it be Trump or Clinton's to own for posterity ?


----------



## sags

Muslims are not as well organized in Canada as other religious groups to get their message into the public forum

Perhaps it is due to the fact they have been in Canada the least amount of time to get organized. 

I think it would also be fair to say that until recently they didn't have a lot to say to the public. They were just going about their business like every other Canadian and then radicals started making life miserable for them. The same increase in terrorist activities caught Muslims off guard and unprepared the same as they did governments.

When Jewish groups organized in Canada, they had a lot history of acts against them and had strong reasons to organize lobby groups to advocate for themselves.

I don't know that Muslims have one spiritual leader they follow for direction or rebuke. Catholics have the Pope. Most churches have a President or Council.

There are so many factions within Islam, there is no living leader who speaks for all the different sects and groups, so I am not convinced that a leader of one small group in Canada speaking out...........as some of them do, has an impact on the world at large.

In most religions there is a central authority with the power to rebuke, dismiss and disengage from an offshoot of their religion. Self proclaimed leaders of radical offshoot religious groups like those led by the infamous David Koresh and Jimmy Jones had been publicly exiled from the main body of their religions.

Everyone knew they were exiled oddballs, but it still didn't prevent the loss of life those "leaders" caused.

In the Jonestown Massacre..........900 men, women and children were murdered by a religious zealot, so "terrorism" isn't a new concept or limited to Muslims.

Just an opinion though.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> In most religions there is a central authority with the power to rebuke, dismiss and disengage from an offshoot of their religion.


As far as I know most religions don't have Popes or Archbishops of Canterbury. Only Christian denominations are heavily centralized, with a universally recognized authority.


----------



## gibor365

> I don't know that Muslims have one spiritual leader they follow for direction or rebuke. Catholics have the Pope


 Jews also don't  There is a saying "Where is 2 Jews, thera are 3 different opinions" 

Even in Israel there are Major Ashkenazi rabbi and Major Sfaradi rabbi ... and the difference between ultra-orthodox , Zioni- orthodox , conservatives, progressive, reformists etc are huge


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> Trump has nothing against legal immigrants, just the illegal ones. Many legal immigrant do support Trump, and so far the illegal ones are not yet allowed to vote, so their opinion is meaningless. Many black people are starting to figure out that the Dems only want their vote and will say and do anything to get that vote....and that includes promoting racial disorder every chance they get so that they can continue to promise how they will "fix" racial inequity.
> 
> Trump has support because he mocks what many Americans hate about Washington. As the saying goes: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".


+1 Dems are waking up and especially to Hillary's nonsense. Blacks and others are figuring out that Hillary will do less then nothing to make their lives better or to protect them. They have had a black president for 8 years and racial problems have only become worse and they are conned to vote for it.


----------



## sags

The Democrats said they will nominate judges to the Supreme Court who will uphold abortion rights, gay rights, and other social issues they favor.

Trump's VP Mike Pence said if Trump is elected they will overturn Roe versus Wade. One assumes the only way to do that is to appoint favorable judges.

So they don't even pretend to hide they aren't interested in a separation of government and the courts or an impartial Supreme Court dealing with issues on their own merits.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> In other words, Muslims who oppose terrorism and Westerners who oppose terrorism need to be silent to avoid offending the politically correct faction that go out of their way to call people racist or Islamaphobic at the drop of a hat unless certain allowable phrasing is not used. Or, even it the "right" wording is used, some people will still be called racist or Islamaphobic.
> 
> That puts those who oppose terrorism in a no win situation....and that's what leads to media suppression or downplaying of attacks, such as what happened in Cologne on New Year's eve going unreported for several days. Had it been a bunch of white "good old boys" that sexually assaulted hundreds of women, the outrage would have been unsurpassed and we'd still be reading headlines about it. But, it was immigrants, who are a "protected" group of the left, and the rules are different for them.


Hardly. my Muslim friend has bigger worries than being called names on a chat board.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> The Democrats said they will nominate judges to the Supreme Court who will uphold abortion rights, gay rights, and other social issues they favor.
> 
> Trump's VP Mike Pence said if Trump is elected they will overturn Roe versus Wade. One assumes the only way to do that is to appoint favorable judges.
> 
> So they don't even pretend to hide they aren't interested in a separation of government and the courts or an impartial Supreme Court dealing with issues on their own merits.



Those issues are distraction issues that will probably not change no matter who is president. But they do help the democrats look good even if they are really not going to do anything on these fronts. People are easily distracted by these issues in an election while not paying attention to many other issues.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> Those issues are distraction issues that will probably not change no matter who is president. But they do help the democrats look good even if they are really not going to do anything on these fronts. People are easily distracted by these issues in an election while not paying attention to many other issues.


The Democrats also want to appoint favourable judges that will allow them to chip away at the Constitution (goodbye 2nd Amendment), so when you say they look good, it's only to those who support them. But, as you stated, people are easily distracted by their fear tactics and don't pay attention to their real agenda.

Let's not forget that the Dems had 8 years to "fix" problems, and they only made things worse. All Hillary brings to the table is the same party mindset, but with a much deeper level of corruption.


----------



## new dog

We are in the minority here bass player but I agree with you. Even though I dislike guns it is in their constitution and Hillary wants them gone for easier control of the people if needed. Of course most forum buddies won't see it but every election uses some useless topic like abortion or gay rights to override all other issues. Lately they have tried the transgender issue in their distraction platform. They did this because they have tried all the other stupid issues and this is the next in line.


----------



## new dog

I think bullying is important and should be used instead of gay rights, transgender or whatever so everyone is included when wrongs are done.


----------



## sags

A flash from the past.............and politicians from both parties couldn't talk about the economic benefits of free trade enough years ago.

Ross Perot spoke out about the dire effects way back in the 1980s, but other politicians from both parties considered him a kook and economists laughed at him.

Where are they all today ? Not a single one stood on the stage and proclaimed.........."I worked hard for those free trade agreements and see how much it has helped you".

That is noteworthy, when politicians are never shy about taking every opportunity to remind voters how much they have accomplished on their behalf.

Not a peep out of either convention on the prosperity of free trade. In fact, it was quite the reverse. Cancel the TPP.......rip up the free trade deals.

Perot talked about the giant sucking sound of jobs going to Mexico. There was a giant sucking void at both conventions when it came to free trade talk.


----------



## mordko

The fact that there are two kooks competing for the presidency now does not disprove Perot being one too.


----------



## sags

In Canada, we should think about these free trade deals as well.

One of our biggest industries contributing to economic GDP is the auto manufacturing industry. 

Toyota has announced they are closing a plant in Ontario and moving the work to Mexico. GM is threatening to do the same.

Maybe we will all have to move to Mexico for jobs...............maybe not so bad.

_In a little cafe just the other side of the border
She was just sitting there givin' me looks that made my mouth water
So I started walking her way
She belonged to bad man, Jose
And I knew, yes I knew I should leave
When I heard her say, 

Come a little bit closer
You're my kind of man
So big and so strong
Come a little bit closer
I'm all alone
And the night is so long

So we started to dance
In my arms, she felt so inviting
That I just couldn't resist
Just one little kiss so exciting
Then I heard the guitar player say
"Vamoose, Jose's on his way"
Then I knew, yes I knew I should run
But then I heard her say, 

Come a little bit closer
You're my kind of man
So big and so strong
Come a little bit closer
I'm all alone
And the night is so long

Then the music stopped
When I looked the cafe was empty
Then I heard Jose say
"Man you know you're in trouble plenty"
So I dropped my drink from my hand
And through the window I ran
And as I rode away
I could hear her say to Jose, 

Come a little bit closer
You're my kind of man
So big and so strong
Come a little bit closer
I'm all alone
And the night is so long

_

A song from 1964 by the appropriately named............Jay and the Americans.


----------



## sags

Jay Black has still got the mojo going..................He was 71 during this PBS performance in 2011 and he is still performing strong at 76..

It would have been a brilliant PR move for one of the conventions to have "Jay and the Americans" perform at their convention.

Maybe as a farewell to Barrack Obama............


----------



## olivaw

Clinton campaign hacked


----------



## sags

One of the best ways to combat hacking is to have "top secret" classified labeled garbage..........full of useless junk and misdirection, and let them "find a way in".

Then watch them run around in circles trying to address fictional scenarios.

It would be like the guy who was stealing delivery boxes from a front porch, so the homeowner filled a big box full of dog poo............and filmed the guy running off with it.

There is nothing new about countries trying to steal each other's secrets. Even "allies" do it to each other.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US has infiltrated and hacked every system in Russia and could turn off all the lights with a mouse click.


----------



## mordko

Always enjoy when "anti racist" fighters against poverty from the left keep going on and on about Mexicans. " stealing" all the jobs and improving their level of life because of the free trade. 

This is particularly wise when done by Canadians, the country which is only prospering thanks to trade and treaties like NAFTA.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> In most religions there is a central authority with the power to rebuke, dismiss and disengage from an offshoot of their religion. Self proclaimed leaders of radical offshoot religious groups like those led by the infamous David Koresh and Jimmy Jones had been publicly exiled from the main body of their religions.
> 
> Everyone knew they were exiled oddballs, but it still didn't prevent the loss of life those "leaders" caused.
> 
> In the Jonestown Massacre..........900 men, women and children were murdered by a religious zealot, so "terrorism" isn't a new concept or limited to Muslims.


It wasn't terrorism as we know today, it was corruption of morals and respect for human life when
these corrupted individuals, who perceive themselves to be great leader lose control, they go into a 
self destruct mode, taking everyone still under their control and grasp with him ..to "save" them. 

As they say "absolute power corrupts absolutely'...this was the case of cult leaders Koresh and "Reverend" Jones. They did a good job of brainwashing everyone in their flock, while abusing the women in their flock to have their children. This also happens in some Mormon circles as well as special "churches" that isolate their members from the rest of the world, and of course abuse the women.

Cult leaders like Koresh actually believed they were prophets of God and woe to those that tried to take any
of their flock away...after the standoff in Waco, the final assault by the FBI on the branch davidians..sealed the fate of anyone trying to escape. 

Jones was another wacko that tried to establish a true commune in Guyana, and after being threatened
by a visit by a congressman and delegation, when 15 members of his commune escaped , he decided he was losing control and forced the rest of his congregation to drink cyanide laced koolaid while he committed suicide with a pistol.



> Jones was a voracious reader as a child and studied Joseph Stalin, Karl Marx, Mao Zedong, Mahatma Gandhi and Adolf Hitler carefully, noting the strengths and weaknesses of each.


Usually, when these so called "religious zealots" go too far, they are witness to their own destruction as has often happened in the US and elsewhere.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> Always enjoy when "anti racist" fighters against poverty from the left keep going on and on about Mexicans. " stealing" all the jobs and improving their level of life because of the free trade.
> 
> This is particularly wise when done by Canadians, the country which is only prospering thanks to trade and treaties like NAFTA.


LOL..........I draw the line well before giving Mexico our industries and jobs while we have a $3 Billion a month trade deficit.

Job creation is pretty much limited to the public sector. If people don't mind paying higher taxes to create jobs...........carry on.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> LOL..........I draw the line well before giving Mexico our industries and jobs while we have a $3 Billion a month trade deficit.
> 
> Job creation is pretty much limited to the public sector. If people don't mind paying higher taxes to create jobs...........carry on.


Right, let's keep the third world in poverty and hand them a bit of largresse every now and then from the taxpayers dollars. Above all we need to make sure that Mexico stays poor and doesn't get to work to take itself out of poverty. Protectionism works so well for everyone, and the Great Depression was simply da best, We want more of it.


----------



## humble_pie

was it m'lord black of crossharbour who was calling the DNC vulgar?

if so, i'm a canadian who hopelessly adores the kind of rambunctious, over-the-top, flag-waving, screaming, weeping american vulgarity we've just witnessed in philadelphia.

that was the big top. The biggest, happiest, noisiest travelling circus show on earth. Every eight years, they get to reinvent themselves.

perhaps mercifully, we have nothing like this orgy in canadian politics. Instead, last october we had two ultra polite & restrained debates. 

compared to the loud, slow, measured drum-beat resonance of american oratory which we've just heard from hillary, barack & all the other democrats, our 3 candidates for canada's highest office sounded like graduate students as they debated last october.

america u rock


.


----------



## Pluto

sags said:


> LOL..........I draw the line well before giving Mexico our industries and jobs while we have a $3 Billion a month trade deficit.


If Mexico is the lowest bidder, they should get the jobs. Free(er) trade is the best path. It doesn't make sense to expect a corporation to seek out a country to build a plant with high land costs, and high wages. They will go where it makes economic sense.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> if so, i'm a canadian who hopelessly adores the kind of rambunctious, over-the-top, flag-waving, screaming, weeping american vulgarity we've just witnessed in philadelphia.
> 
> .....
> 
> america u rock
> .


humble, I agree. Americans are a confident and boisterous people who celebrate their constitutional democracy with a contagious enthusiasm. Their conventions are super shows. 

Their presidential debates can be amazing too. (Who will ever forget "please proceed Governor"). I wonder what the Clinton/Trump debates will be like.


----------



## sags

Pluto said:


> If Mexico is the lowest bidder, they should get the jobs. Free(er) trade is the best path. It doesn't make sense to expect a corporation to seek out a country to build a plant with high land costs, and high wages. They will go where it makes economic sense.


Let's employ the whole of the free market system, not just the parts that benefit corporations.

They can manufacture anywhere they want and we can decide the price to access our market with their goods or services.

If corporations pay enough in tariffs, the government can hire people to count pigeons in the park.

If a corporation doesn't want to pay the tariff, they don't have to sell their products here. Another company will make a success out of filling the void.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> Right, let's keep the third world in poverty and hand them a bit of largresse every now and then from the taxpayers dollars. Above all we need to make sure that Mexico stays poor and doesn't get to work to take itself out of poverty. Protectionism works so well for everyone, and the Great Depression was simply da best, We want more of it.


If helping Mexico involves free trade that turns Canada into Mexico, it will end up helping nobody.

The Auto Pact was a form of protectionism and it worked very well for many decades.

A huge domestic auto industry was built on the foundation of the Auto Pact, ..... the remnants of which have almost been picked to the bone by free trade deals. 

What took many generations to build......has been frittered away by the foolishness of one misguided generation.

If free trade has been such a boon to prosperity...........why have politicians avoided talking about it for years ?

They do love an " I told you so" success story. Apparently the "success" of free trade isn't one of them.

The pro free traders aren't stepping up to accept credit.........why is that ?


----------



## sags

Pluto said:


> If Mexico is the lowest bidder, they should get the jobs. Free(er) trade is the best path. It doesn't make sense to expect a corporation to seek out a country to build a plant with high land costs, and high wages. They will go where it makes economic sense.


We are losing $3 Billion a month in trade. We have to stop digging the hole before we can start filling it in again.


----------



## sags

Trump goes after the Muslim dad who lost his son. I didn't think he would sink that low. I was wrong.


----------



## new dog

I have to agree with sags, free trade was partly done to help corporations make more money costing many manufacturing jobs in North America. I am not against free trade if standards were there to ensure workers minimum wages and standards were comparable to what we could expect here. Also environmental concerns and laws as well were up to a certain standard.

The TPP however is a horrendous deal which you can review here.

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...s-Progress-and-Might-Get-a-Deal?highlight=tpp


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Trump goes after the Muslim dad who lost his son. I didn't think he would sink that low. I was wrong.




even more shocking was the fact that Trump also attacked Ghazala Khan as she stood in grief before the democratic convention.

i'm sure that, in the whole of north America, there is not one woman alive who would not rush to protect Ghazala, to help shield & ease her grief as much as possible, from the pain of her soldier son's death in iraq.

.


----------



## mordko

Actually, Mexico is prospering and Canada has experienced a humongous benefit from NAFTA, including fast rise in US investment into the automotive industry. Canadian Oil, agricultural sector, mining - all have benefited from NAFTa. The rumour of Canada turning into pre NAFTA Mexico is based on zero evidence. Canadian industry then suffered from obamas protectionist "buy American" provision and the pipeline ban.

Protectionism is rearing its ugly head in the US among left and right, but in Canada the only protectionis party is NDP. Both Major parties are pro trade so I am not sure which country you live in, sags.


----------



## Pluto

new dog said:


> I have to agree with sags, free trade was partly done to help corporations make more money costing many manufacturing jobs in North America. I am not against free trade if standards were there to ensure workers minimum wages and standards were comparable to what we could expect here. Also environmental concerns and laws as well were up to a certain standard.
> 
> The TPP however is a horrendous deal which you can review here.
> 
> http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...s-Progress-and-Might-Get-a-Deal?highlight=tpp


US and Canadian manufacturing jobs were not lost mainly to overseas manufacturing, they were lost to robotics. Reportedly, US manufactures more now than in the 1970's but jobs are down in that sector due to robots. I suspect it is the same in Canada.


Its a bad idea to subsidize manufacturing to prop up a failing industry. Remember that aircraft plant in Ontario that was subsidized to save jobs back in the 1980's? Eventually the Mulroney government paid Boeing to buy it. Stuff like that is a nightmare.


----------



## Pluto

sags said:


> They can manufacture anywhere they want and we can decide the price to access our market with their goods or services.
> If a corporation doesn't want to pay the tariff, they don't have to sell their products here. Another company will make a success out of filling the void.


You talk like a socialist union guy from the 1970's. Your Tariff theory only works if there is no retaliation by other countries. Apparently protectionism in the form of tariffs was a contributing factor to the great depression. Raising tariffs is not an economic move, it is a short sighted political move designed to get your vote. 

You seem to be blind to the benefits of Canadian business under freer trade that can all be lost in a protectionist fight with other countries.


----------



## olivaw

IMHO, Canada's trade deficit reflects low commodities prices. It's a temporary situation. No need for talk of tariffs and protectionism in this country. 

Trump is a lot of things, but I am not sure that he really is a protectionist. He's more of a scapegoater who blames China for the loss of middle class manufacturing jobs.


----------



## mordko

Trump consistently promotes trade barriers with Mexico, China, Canada... He calls NAFTA a "disaster". He is a direct economic threat to the whole of North America. 

Clinton has also adopted protectionist language, although it's pretty clear she was pushed into it by Bernie.


----------



## olivaw

Nah, Trump says he is going to renegotiate trade deals. Not much substance there. 

I worry more about what he would try to do to NATO.


----------



## Pluto

*Stock market can predict the next president*

http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/31/investing/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-stock-market/


If market goes up between now and November, Clinton will win.


----------



## mordko

Pluto said:


> http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/31/investing/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-stock-market/
> 
> 
> If market goes up between now and November, Clinton will win.


Didn't do so well at predicting Brexit.


----------



## olivaw

Pluto said:


> http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/31/investing/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-stock-market/
> 
> 
> If market goes up between now and November, Clinton will win.


Makes sense. If we are in a recession, the market will be down and people will be in the mood for a new party in the White House. Fingers crossed for a bullish market and a Clinton victory.


----------



## sags

Even if Clinton wins, she cannot ignore that Trump and Sanders represent a majority of American voters.

If Clinton fails to address the inequities in free trade deals, she won't get elected for a second term.

But she is smart and I think she already knows that it won't be business as usual for Wall Street and corporations anymore.

The 1% is sitting back, shocked that nobody wants to be seen with them anymore.

Trump says he turned down a meeting with the Koch brothers and all their rich friends.

He says he doesn't care what they want.


----------



## mordko

Rather Koch brothers refused to support Trump. Of course both Trump and Clinton are 0.1% and plenty of people have been seen with them.


----------



## mordko

Presenting Trump as some kind of Robin Hood fighting the rich is about as accurate as claiming that protectionism benefits Canada.


----------



## sags

How much proof do people need ?

_ The U.S.-Mexico trade balance swung from a $1.7 billion U.S. surplus in 1993 to a $54 billion deficit by 2014. _

_Many workers and labor leaders point to these numbers to blame trade, including NAFTA, for the decline in U.S. manufacturing jobs. The *U.S. auto sector lost some 350,000 jobs since 1994—a third of the industry—while Mexican auto sector employment spiked from 120,000 to 550,000 workers*. CEPR's Baker argues that econometric research shows that increased trade also puts downward pressure on wages for non-college educated workers, who are more likely to face direct competition from low-wage workers in Mexico.

But other economists like Gary Clyde Hufbauer and Cathleen Cimino-Isaacs of the Peterson Institute for International Economics (PIIE) emphasize that increased trade produces gains for the overall U.S. economy. Some jobs are lost due to imports, but others are created, and consumers benefit significantly from the falling prices and often improved quality of goods created by import competition. *A 2014 PIIE study of NAFTA's effects found that about 15,000 jobs on net are lost each year due to the pact*—but that for each of those jobs lost, the economy gains roughly $450,000 in the form of higher productivity and lower consumer prices. _

Even economists that support NAFTA say it is still costing 15,000 jobs every year...........but the trade off is cheaper consumer goods.

Canada and the US signed a trade deal in 1988. It should have been left at that. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

http://www.cfr.org/trade/naftas-economic-impact/p15790


----------



## sags

Trump made a fool of himself again.

He said Putin would never invade Ukraine. When told they already had, Trump said it was terrible and all Obama's fault but it wasn't so bad because it didn't matter.

Trump's foreign policy advisers were still in Cleveland and unavailable for comment.

View attachment 11073


----------



## mordko

Does free trade transfer some jobs from wealthy countries to poor countries? Of course. And it makes poor countries richer. It also makes wealthy countries richer and in particular benefits trading nations which depend on trade (aka Canada). Some people hate the poor and "foreigners", which is why they want to impose protectionist barriers.


----------



## new dog

The one we have to worry about now is the TPP are you guys for this deal.


----------



## mordko

If it's enacted then Canada should absolutely be a part of TPP. Even though Obama screwed us, we have no choice but to be part of it.

The free trade deal that is actually happening is between provinces. The barriers between provinces is an outrageous idiocy, unfortunately not all of them have been removed.


----------



## mrPPincer

new dog said:


> The one we have to worry about now is the TPP are you guys for this deal.


Hell No!

It's a **** deal for Canada, relegates us to hewers of wood and drawers of water in perpetuity and excludes us from tech.
Retarded Harper era garbage.


----------



## olivaw

How does this trade deal relegate us to hewars of wood and drawers of water? Does it prohibit us from developing other industries or skills?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Trump goes after the Muslim dad who lost his son. I didn't think he would sink that low. I was wrong.


Yes, Trump was wrong, but what he did wasn't as bad as Hillary outright lying to the parents of the men killed in Benghazi.

And, of course, the media has two completely different opinions depending on which party trots out a grieving parent:


----------



## new dog

CNN can't get enough of it, if it happened to Hilary it would barely be an issue.


----------



## mordko




----------



## Pluto

According to Benghazi survivor Clinton has no soul. 

http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Benghazi-survivor-Hillary-Clinton-has-no-7948384.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ack-right-hand-woman-Huma-Abedin-told-to.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/26/kris-tanto-paronto-benghazi-survivor-fights-radica/

http://buzz.blog.ajc.com/2016/07/26/benghazi-attack-survivor-is-at-dnc-to-denounce-hillary-clinton/


----------



## mrPPincer

olivaw said:


> How does this trade deal relegate us to hewars of wood and drawers of water? Does it prohibit us from developing other industries or skills?


If you have 18 minutes and 38 seconds to spare, please just take a listen to this interview with Jim Balsillie, co-founder of RIM.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...da-s-innovators-jim-balsillie-warns-1.3433248


> Balsille, co-founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, is adamant ratifying the TPP would be Canada's worst-ever foreign policy move. He fears signing the deal would cripple the innovation sector, which he adds is already lagging behind the rest of the world.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> Yes, Trump was wrong, but what he did wasn't as bad as Hillary outright lying to the parents of the men killed in Benghazi.
> 
> And, of course, the *media has two completely different opinions* depending on which party trots out a grieving parent:



Both speeches were equally wrought with emotion, but the reporter only had clear hearing for the one spoken at the DNC. 

Each grieving parent trashed the other party's presidential nominee.
Clinton was a good liar having falsely blamed the Benghazi attack on an anti-Muslim YouTube video (was she responsible for the attack, no).
Trump never stops being an outrageous liar.
Reporter was a hypocrite on this matter. His full article http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rnc-manipulates-the-pain-grieving-mother-partisan-gain

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/28/benghazi-report-points-out-obama-clinton-lies/


----------



## sags

Maybe there were national security reasons why Clinton chose not to publicly reveal all the information she had ?

Revealing information gives clues to the enemy on who is providing that information to the US.

Clinton would have been better served by saying "no comment" to any questions from the media until the details were sorted out.

But then the Republicans would have claimed she was hiding information.


----------



## SMK

The deliberate and repeated lies served one purpose, for Obama to get re-elected 2 months later, not for national security reasons.


----------



## olivaw

mrPPincer said:


> If you have 18 minutes and 38 seconds to spare, please just take a listen to this interview with Jim Balsillie, co-founder of RIM.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...da-s-innovators-jim-balsillie-warns-1.3433248


Thanks for the link. Balsillie is concerned that the TPP entrenches many of America's Intellectual Property regulations in the trade agreement. 
Here's John Oliver's comment on US Patent Law with a nod to patent trolls and Marshall, Texas.


----------



## olivaw

The two speeches at the conventions were not the same: 

- The speech at the RNC was a continuation of the ongoing political attempt to blame Clinton for Benghazi. It's been going on for years and it is only a scandal within the Republican political bubble. 
- The speech at the DNC did not blame anyone. It simply contrasted the parents of a fallen soldier with Trump's hateful rhetoric. Trump was dumb enough to respond and insult the fallen soldier's mother. What an idiot.:stupid:


----------



## tygrus

Its really a strange choice.

One one hand we have the safe candidate that gives us platitudes, no action and a "there, there" attitude that we know best and our globalist policies are great, just let us continue.

On the other hand, you have a contentious, unpolished candidate that swings from the hip, dumped old political baggage and hits the notes people want to hear, but then veers off into lunacy and diatribe.

The electorate needs a sane middle of the road candidate.


----------



## humble_pie

tygrus said:


> Its really a strange choice.
> 
> One one hand we have the safe candidate that gives us platitudes, no action and a "there, there" attitude that we know best and our globalist policies are great, just let us continue.
> 
> On the other hand, you have a contentious, unpolished candidate that swings from the hip, dumped old political baggage and hits the notes people want to hear, but then veers off into lunacy and diatribe.
> 
> The electorate needs a sane middle of the road candidate.



but if she's safe then QED she's also sane-middle-of-the-road, no?

if he veers off into lunacy & diatribe then QED he's unfit for the presidency, no?

it's terrifying to imagine impulse-ridden fingers like Trump's fumbling over the nuclear codes


.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> The two speeches at the conventions were not the same:
> 
> - The speech at the RNC was a continuation of the ongoing political attempt to blame Clinton for Benghazi. It's been going on for years and it is only a scandal within the Republican political bubble.


Help was 2 hours away and Clinton refused to send help. Those left hung out to dry managed to hold off the attack for 6 - 8 hours before being killed. Clinton then compounded her lack of action by publicly blaming the attack on a YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSooz2wXpes

Then, when that lie was exposed, she claimed that it really didn't matter why it happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka0_nz53CcM



olivaw said:


> - The speech at the DNC did not blame anyone. It simply contrasted the parents of a fallen soldier with Trump's hateful rhetoric. Trump was dumb enough to respond and insult the fallen soldier's mother. What an idiot.:stupid:


Trump was dumb enough to respond. However, that does not excuse Clinton.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Trump was dumb enough to respond. However, that does not excuse Clinton.



respond to what?

what did Ghazala Khan ever do, that donald trump saw fit to "respond" by insulting her?

a mother who mourns her soldier son buried in Arlington national cemetery should become the object of jeers & taunts from a goofus who thinks he is a suitable presidential candidate?


.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> a mother who mourns her soldier son buried in Arlington national cemetery should become the object of jeers & taunts from a goofus who thinks he is a suitable presidential candidate?


The mother who mourns a son killed in Benghazi should not be lied to at his funeral by the Secretary of State who thinks she is a suitable presidential candidate.

Look...I don't think Trump is suitable. But, Hillary is even less suitable and more of a threat. No one in either party plus the entire media like Trump. He would be unable to do anything that the Republicans do not agree with, and the media will watch him like a hawk. 

However, with Hillary in charge, the Clinton corruption machine will continue unabated, and the media will continue to ignore or cover for her like they do today. 4 years of Hillary in power should frighten everyone.


----------



## Pluto

WikiLeaks claims hacked emails prove Hilary armed ISIS in Syria. 

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7960/wikileaks-hacked-emails-include-hillary-arming-james-barrett


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Help was 2 hours away and Clinton refused to send help. Those left hung out to dry managed to hold off the attack for 6 - 8 hours before being killed. Clinton then compounded her lack of action by publicly blaming the attack on a YouTube video:


This has been debunked by reliable independent sources. http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/benghazi.asp 

Clinton testified before one of the many Republican Benghazi committees:


----------



## new dog

What do we know?

We know the TPP is terrible.

We know Clinton is totally corrupt.

We know the media wants to put Trump down.

The media is 100 percent behind Clinton.

The Muslim thing a few days ago was no big deal at all and just blown up by the media. Most people are swayed by these feel good or bad stories but are willing to overlook corruption.

Trump wants to work with Russia and Clinton doesn't.

Pluto we have known that Hillary and Obama armed ISIS for a long time in their goal to get rid of Assad. I think we know leaving the middle east alone if possible is the best policy.


----------



## mordko

Agree that Clinton is terrible. Would vote for her in a minute if I were American.


----------



## new dog

Even the Clinton supporters here must be getting sick of this over the top Khan thing. I turn on CNN and that is all I see it is ridiculous, I don't know how anyone can take this news network seriously.


----------



## andrewf

The problem is that the Republicans failed to put a realistic candidate to oppose Hillary. Nominating a crazy narcissistic know-nothing with less experience in government than Sarah Palin was dangerously irresponsible.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> What do we know?
> 
> We know the TPP is terrible.
> 
> We know Clinton is totally corrupt.
> 
> We know the media wants to put Trump down.
> 
> The media is 100 percent behind Clinton.
> 
> The Muslim thing a few days ago was no big deal at all and just blown up by the media. Most people are swayed by these feel good or bad stories but are willing to overlook corruption.
> 
> Trump wants to work with Russia and Clinton doesn't.
> 
> Pluto we have known that Hillary and Obama armed ISIS for a long time in their goal to get rid of Assad. I think we know leaving the middle east alone if possible is the best policy.





we don't *know* any of the above nonsense.

when the media report that a number of prominent non-partisan americans are starting to say that donald trump is unfit to be US president, the media are doing their job. The media are accurately reporting the news.

the US arming ISIL? please let us not be silly. It's true that the US offered military assistance & weapons to groups opposing syrian president Assad and those groups later evolved into terrorist organisms. Several of these groups have recently re-organized & re-baptized themselves as jabhat fateh al-sham, evidently in the ridiculous hope that russia won't recognize or attack them under a new name.

here's a list of armed syrian opposition parties fighting Assad. There look to be 60-80 of them, not including the dozens affiliated with ISIL. Foreign countries currently or previously supplying these splinter groups with weapons, advice, training & other military assistance include the US, france, saudi arabia, qatar, turkey & libya.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War


it's true that throughout syria & iraq, US weapons & US tanks & trucks have been captured by ISIL, principally from poorly trained iraqi soldiers who have fled battlegrounds.

it's also true that arms dealers are selling stolen weapons throughout the middle east, to anybody who will pay for them.

lastly, it's probably even true that a few stolen canadian weapons have made their convoluted way into ISIL hands. Why not post an irresponsible message saying Justin Trudeau Is Arming ISIL, or Stephen Harper Was Arming Isil?



.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> The media are accurately reporting the news.


Please tell us you aren't serious :stupid:


----------



## humble_pie

.

the action is surely without precedent. John McCain has publicly spoken out against Donald Trump. The former US republican national candidate for president of the United States has publicly reproached, blamed, shamed & scorned the current candidate.

the media have no choice but to report this turn of events. Most are presenting McCain's entire statement verbatim. I hadn't realized that not only McCain's father, but also his grandfather, had served in the US military.


.


----------



## humble_pie

.

speaking of middle eastern immigrants & refugees, this forum has witnessed a lot of contentious posting over recent syrian refugees.

every time someone on here would slam the refugees or post how they should all be left to drown in the aegean sea or how they are going to rob, rape, terrorize & destroy canada, i'd think about Boushey's Fruit Market on Elgin, in my old downtown ottawa neighbourhood.

we lived on somerset. I was studying journalism. A couple of times a week, I'd push my baby in her stroller a few blocks over to Boushey's to buy groceries. 

the syrian-canadian father of these now-retiring Boushey brothers was still working the store. He's Charles, shown in the bottom photo in the link below. Charles himself was the son of the original Boushey, the forefather from syria who had established the fruit & vegetable store at the same location, only a stone's throw from Parliament hill, nearly 80 years ago.

looking at this news story about the 3rd generation Boushey brothers going into retirement, i can't believe how the quaint little store still looks exactly the same. Even the projecting hanging sign above the storefront hasn't changed from 21 years ago.

who was prime minister when the original Boushey patriarch set up this grocery store in the late 1940s? louis st-laurent? william lyon mackenzie king? did one or the other stop at Boushey's late in the evening to pick up a quart of milk plus a dozen eggs? what kind of canadian history has three generations of the Boushey family witnessed on elgin street?

in canada, it's interesting how old, how well-established & how well-integrated the syrian community really is. It's always been strong in the food provisioning & restaurant sectors. 


http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...eir-goodbyes-on-bousheys-last-day-of-business


.


----------



## SMK

andrewf said:


> The problem is that the Republicans failed to put a realistic candidate to oppose Hillary. Nominating a crazy narcissistic know-nothing with less experience in government than Sarah Palin was dangerously irresponsible.


Another example of irresponsible choice, when McCain picked Palin as V.P. He didn't put his country first either.


----------



## kcowan

humble_pie said:


> it's terrifying to imagine impulse-ridden fingers like Trump's fumbling over the nuclear codes.


I am much more concerned about his attitude toward the military. Trying to welsh on his promised donation. bad-mouthing POWs, criticizing the mom of a fallen soldier. Totally unfit to be commander-in-chief. A loser!


----------



## sags

I don't know if I recall a past election where both business leaders and union leaders support the Democrats.

Trump..........successfully uniting adversaries in the common goal of defeating him.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> I don't know if I recall a past election where both business leaders and union leaders support the Democrats.


Why is it a surprise? Hillary has proven she can be bought. I doubt that she is getting support from business and unions for her honesty and lack of corruption... :stupid:


----------



## sags

As long as she is "bought" by both sides, I consider it a "draw".


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> As long as she is "bought" by both sides, I consider it a "draw".


And consider it a lose/lose. It's a shame that corruption and outright lies are so widely accepted by the Democratic party...as long as it's a Democrat that lies or is corrupt, of course. They certainly speak up if a Republican does something wrong.


----------



## olivaw

If Clinton was been bought and paid for by Unions and Businesses then Trump was been bought and paid for by Russians. :stupid: 

Truth is, neither candidate is particularly corrupt. The American system requires presidential candidates to raise obscene amounts of money. The corruption is in the system, not the candidates.


----------



## sags

The difference between Republicans/Conservatives and Democrats/Liberals.

Republicans/Conservatives want to implement their ideology and give people what they think they need. (helicopter parenting)

Democrats/Liberals focus on giving people want they want.........if they need it or not. (benevolent parenting)

It isn't surprising that conservative ideology is unpopular and is on the endangered species list.


----------



## mordko

^ False. 

While there are different Republicans/Conservatives and Democrats/Liberals and there is a large overlap on the edges, the defining features of modern Canadian Conservatism are: 

- Small state. 
- Economic freedom/free market. 

The ideological foundation of Liberals:

- Large state. 
- Tax and spend/Redistribution. 

Trump isn't a real Conservative in any way shape or form.


----------



## mordko

And yes, "giving people what they want" has its appeal to target audiences. Eventually the state runs out of other peoples' money.


----------



## sags

Liberals implement their ideology when elected........much to the disdain of Conservatives.

Conservatives never implement their ideology when elected..........much to the amusement of Liberals.


----------



## sags

Despite the ideology............what are Liberals and Conservative records of achievement ?

Liberals..........balanced budgets and paying down the national debt........Chretien/Martin and Justin Trudeau

Conservatives..........deficit spending and record levels of national debt.........Mulroney and Harper.

Petty much the same results in the US.

Reagan/Bush/Bush versus Clinton/Obama.


----------



## mordko

^Depends. Paul Martin implemented conservative fiscal policies. Both Mulroney and Harper pursued free trade. Harper took the country through crisis with flying colours, balanced the budget in 2015. Trudeau is indeed implementing Liberal redistribution/nanny state policies but its early days.


----------



## mordko

Trudeau took over a balanced budget and what was the first thing he did? Blew it, above and beyond what he promised voters during the election.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> It isn't surprising that conservative ideology is unpopular and is on the endangered species list.


Hardly endangered, but you're right about the unpopularity. In the popularity contest, the winners are the politically correct, open-minded illiberal liberals. :biggrin:


----------



## sags

Trump may step down or be removed before November.

Obama is planting the seed of a GOP takeover and removal of Trump. As Trump is trailing Clinton by 7% in the latest polls he may not want to continue anyways.

Trump actually lost votes in before and after GOP convention polling. People who supported Trump didn't like what they saw at the convention.

Republicans are realizing they can't win with Trump and understand the issues are too important to continue to be loyal to him.


----------



## mordko

Republicans f-cked up and it's too late to change anything. Now need Trump to lose and lose big and change the selection process. Trump only got through because he split the field of actual conservatives.


----------



## olivaw

I think the talk of Trump's demise is overblown. He enjoys a core of adoring supporters, esp. among white male tradespeople.


----------



## mordko

He enjoys support among conspiracy junkies, protectionists, neo-nazis, Russian spies and reality TV fans. I am hoping it's good enough for him to get a particularly impressive thumping in November.


----------



## Eder

We elected Nutley to spite ourselves....no reason America won't elect Trump for the same reasons. Either candidate will be fine as president but its a good time between now & November to invest in popcorn stocks.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> we don't *know* any of the above nonsense.
> 
> when the media report that a number of prominent non-partisan americans are starting to say that donald trump is unfit to be US president, the media are doing their job. The media are accurately reporting the news.
> 
> the US arming ISIL? please let us not be silly. It's true that the US offered military assistance & weapons to groups opposing syrian president Assad and those groups later evolved into terrorist organisms. Several of these groups have recently re-organized & re-baptized themselves as jabhat fateh al-sham, evidently in the ridiculous hope that russia won't recognize or attack them under a new name.
> 
> here's a list of armed syrian opposition parties fighting Assad. There look to be 60-80 of them, not including the dozens affiliated with ISIL. Foreign countries currently or previously supplying these splinter groups with weapons, advice, training & other military assistance include the US, france, saudi arabia, qatar, turkey & libya.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War
> 
> 
> it's true that throughout syria & iraq, US weapons & US tanks & trucks have been captured by ISIL, principally from poorly trained iraqi soldiers who have fled battlegrounds.
> 
> it's also true that arms dealers are selling stolen weapons throughout the middle east, to anybody who will pay for them.
> 
> lastly, it's probably even true that a few stolen canadian weapons have made their convoluted way into ISIL hands. Why not post an irresponsible message saying Justin Trudeau Is Arming ISIL, or Stephen Harper Was Arming Isil?
> 
> 
> 
> .


We do know the corporate media and those who don't like the fact that Trump is not as easily paid for want him out. Sure those who don't like his antics want him out as well. So any issue that will stick must be put forward and exploited with all guns blazing. Sure enough this non issue pointing out that Trump is against a war hero has stuck even though he clearly doesn't intend to insult any war hero. So we have everyone ganging up on him and punching him while he is down. Hilary we know 100 percent gets a free ride and what she has done is much, much worse and should be in jail. Does this mean we should vote for Trump, of course not but it does mean the US has big problems when the media won't even remotely do their job and only bought and paid for politicians by the right people or corporations have a chance at being president.

People are probably starting to feel it is hopeless for the average person especially after the Bernie thing. They see the corruption and the way the media behaves and feel they have no say in anything. 

ISIS was armed in a sloppy manner as you say and the US didn't care at the time because we must get rid of Assad as you know.

This Khan guy from what I understand likes Sharia law and Islam and such.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> we don't *know* any of the above nonsense.
> 
> when the media report that a number of prominent non-partisan americans are starting to say that donald trump is unfit to be US president, the media are doing their job. The media are accurately reporting the news..


I see that you refused to reply to those that questioned your silly claim that the media is unbiased. Perhaps this example of recent headlines may even convince someone as biased as you that the media is all on the same page, so much so, that their headline writers must have all received the same memo from the Hillary campaign and dutifully did her bidding:

Washington Post: In Acceptance Speech, Trump's America is a DARK and desperate place

CBC News: Donald Trump offers DARK vision of America in GOP convention speech

NBC News: Donald Trump Takes America on a Journey to the DARK side

CNBC: Trump's emotional and DARK message

Huffington Post: Donald Trump's DARK and Scary Night

Mother Jones: Donald Trump and the DARK Soul of the GOP

The New Yorker: Donald Trump's DARK, DARK Convention Speech

The Nation: Donald Trump's Angry, DARK Convention Speech...

Boston Globe: The DARK, Frightening America of Donald Trump


Or, is it just a coincidence?? :stupid:


----------



## olivaw

Trump has RedState, Breitbart, Fox News, Washington Times, Glen Beck, the Daily Caller and the New York Post on his side.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Trump has RedState, Breitbart, Fox News, Washington Times, Glen Beck, the Daily Caller and the New York Post on his side.


So, he's outnumbered 10 to 1 in overall media coverage, plus that overwhelming majority is so ridiculously biased to the point where it's become fraudulent.

As I pointed out in comment #362...the entire left media is following the exact same script using the exact same words in their headlines. Even if you truly support Hillary for some reason, doesn't the mass collusion, cover-ups, and lies by omission bother you at all? Media used to look for the truth, but they now have become willing political pawns following a script given to them.

And that's why Hillary in charge is so frightening...the media collusion will continue unabated and she'll have free reign to do anything.


----------



## sags

The media is reporting what everyone is saying, including most Republicans.

Today, some stepped forward and said outright they will be voting for Hillary Clinton.

How should the media report what Trump did today ?

He accepted a purple heart from a veteran, and then went on stage, pulled it out of his pocket, wagged it around and said he always wanted one of these and got it the easy way.

On CNN, Mr. Khan shamed Trump and told him to pin it back on the veteran's chest and thank him for his service.

He said if Trump wanted to earn a purple heart, he shouldn't have taken 5 draft deferments for the Vietnam War and served like many other young men and women.

Mr. Khan implored the Republican leadership to remove Trump. Obama said the same earlier. Some Republicans have joined the chorus.

The drums beat louder.


----------



## sags

Trump jousts with crying baby............read the headlines.

Trump was giving a speech and a baby started crying. Trump stopped and said it was okay, everything is fine and he loved babies.

A few minutes later the baby started crying again and once again Trump stopped but this time he said to get the baby out of here. The mother actually believed I like having babies cry while I am talking.......he said with a smirk on his face.

Good grief..........I can only imagine the embarrassment of the mother to be centered out like that and then be removed from the event.

Trump's response even drew gasps from the crowd......to which Trump said "it's okay...people don't understand".

Understand what ? That Donald Trump is never to be interrupted when he is talking ?

I wonder how many potential supporters from that crowd Trump lost today.

Trump is in "self destruct" mode.

Trump must have a magic mirror.........mirror, mirror on the wall. Am I the greatest of them all.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Trump has RedState


No idea if it's true or not.



> Breitbart,


True. It's a blog.


> Fox News, Washington Times


Bullshit and bullshit.



> Glen Beck,


True. It's one guy. A crazy one. 



> the Daily Caller and the New York Post on his side.


Bullshit and bullshit. 

Quite impressive actually. About the same percentage of bullshit as when Donald himself opens his mouth.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass.. either it IS a dark chapter for the gop or there is some grand conspiracy afoot, where multiple prominent journalists are being forced to use a particular coin phrase, is this what you're saying?


----------



## mordko

OK, just opened Redstate... The claim that it's "pro-trump" is also false. http://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2016/08/02/trumps-foreign-policy-adviser-russia-gop-convention/


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> bass.. either it IS a dark chapter for the gop or there is some grand conspiracy afoot, where multiple prominent journalists are being forced to use a particular coin phrase, is this what you're saying?


What do you think?


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> What do you think?


I'd guess conspiracy theory comes into play here 

Not to say there's anything wrong with that, some of my best friends are conspiracy theorists..


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> The media is reporting what everyone is saying, including most Republicans.
> 
> Today, some stepped forward and said outright they will be voting for Hillary Clinton.
> 
> How should the media report what Trump did today ?
> 
> He accepted a purple heart from a veteran, and then went on stage, pulled it out of his pocket, wagged it around and said he always wanted one of these and got it the easy way.
> 
> On CNN, Mr. Khan shamed Trump and told him to pin it back on the veteran's chest and thank him for his service.
> 
> He said if Trump wanted to earn a purple heart, he shouldn't have taken 5 draft deferments for the Vietnam War and served like many other young men and women.
> 
> Mr. Khan implored the Republican leadership to remove Trump. Obama said the same earlier. Some Republicans have joined the chorus.
> 
> The drums beat louder.



The Republicans don't want Trump because he is not bought out or indoctrinated and Hillary is. So their first choice is one indoctrinated by the Republicans but if not then Hillary will do just fine.

Khan is a loud fool in my opinion who is pushing his agenda. 

The media as Bass player said is totally for Hillary as an any idiot can see that. To deny it is to deny the truth or to push untruth onto us. 

You all hate Trump and when he disappears the media situation will not and may even turn against what you guys think is right. I hate corruption and crime but apparently many here do not.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> So, he's outnumbered 10 to 1 in overall media coverage, plus that overwhelming majority is so ridiculously biased to the point where it's become fraudulent.
> 
> As I pointed out in comment #362...the entire left media is following the exact same script using the exact same words in their headlines. Even if you truly support Hillary for some reason, doesn't the mass collusion, cover-ups, and lies by omission bother you at all? .


The organizations that I listed are only a few examples of right wing news sources. There are dozens, or hundreds more. Such right leaning sites and sources tend to favour the Republican Party and nominees. 

MSNBC, The New Yorker, Mother Jones and Huffington tend to lean to the left. 

Other news sources try to maintain a balance but such sources are becoming increasingly rare. Readers want stories that confirm their own bias. It's not a conspiracy, it's the new media marketplace.


----------



## sags

I have noticed a change in tone at CNN against Trump to be honest.

But I don't find it surprising journalists are getting tired of Trump rant at them, especially since they were accused of "going too lightly" on Trump during the early primaries.

Had the media been asking Trump tough questions and follow up questions on his foreign policy, he may never have gotten this far.

Trump was given deference because he was the wacky bird star of the show, center stage and always saying something outrageous.

The media and the Republicans seriously underestimated America's appetite for what Trump was saying.


----------



## mrPPincer

Ok, reflecting here, conspiracy, collusion etc, wouldn't our language be better off if they weren't in our lexicon, 
replaced with maybe dialog and deal-making..

Might be culturally responsible to move up the alphabet by a letter or two.
Just a thought..

oh, hey.. I've got it.. developmentally responsible..
Lets fix this corrupt language first, then all will fall into place :biggrin:


----------



## sags

We live in an age where fact checking is carried on live during a debate..........and nobody seems to care if half the statements are blatant lies.

Politicians now earn Pinocchios.

Tell you the truth ? You can't handle the truth !......... seems the motto now.


----------



## olivaw

mrPPincer said:


> Ok, reflecting here, conspiracy, collusion etc, wouldn't our language be better off if they weren't in our lexicon,
> replaced with maybe dialog and deal-making..
> 
> Might be culturally responsible to move up the alphabet by a letter or two.
> Just a thought..
> 
> oh, hey.. I've got it.. developmentally responsible..
> Lets fix this corrupt language first, then all will fall into place :biggrin:


don't deny our dogged determination to defeat Donald's destiny.


----------



## mrPPincer

Donald's destiny doesn't decidedly do detriment defensively during defeat due democractic dominatation.. uh lost my train of thought


----------



## sags

It was good while it lasted though...........


----------



## sags

Sometimes just to remind myself of who exactly is deciding US elections..........I go to Youtube and watch videos of "average" Americans view of the world.

One of the questions........What is the Muslim religion ? Some answers........Jewish, Judaism, Arabic, ..........


----------



## andrewf

As he says, he cut out most of the people who answered correctly.

Of course, it is pretty astonishing how few people can point out where they are/live on a globe. ie, Americans who can't point out the USA.

Or this chestnut from when Russia annexed Crimea. Where Americans think Ukraine is:


----------



## sags

I went to a private high school in the US for 2 years and American Government and American History were mandatory courses at the school.

They must not have a set curriculum across the country. World geography was a mandatory course in the Canadian schools I attended.


----------



## sags

Just for the heck of it I memorized all 50 US states and could recall them in alphabetical order.

It might come in handy someday.........for what I have no idea 

http://www.ironicsans.com/state22.html


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> The organizations that I listed are only a few examples of right wing news sources. There are dozens, or hundreds more. Such right leaning sites and sources tend to favour the Republican Party and nominees.


For starters, Donald Trump himself is not "right wing". Secondly, only blind wouldn't notice that the Republican party is divided over its nominee. And lastly, the majority of the news organizations you mentioned are not "pro-Trump".


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> As he says, he cut out most of the people who answered correctly.
> 
> Of course, it is pretty astonishing how few people can point out where they are/live on a globe. ie, Americans who can't point out the USA.
> 
> Or this chestnut from when Russia annexed Crimea. Where Americans think Ukraine is:


Canadians are no better. Most grade 11 students would not be able to name capitals of Norway, Brazil, Austria or Poland. And when I asked a class of 12-year olds 4 years ago, "who is the Prime Minister of Canada", they told me "Obama".


----------



## andrewf

I don't think its important to know the capital of every country... but people should at least know roughly where countries are in the world.


----------



## tygrus

Honestly, the less I know about the rest of the world , the better.


----------



## SMK

new dog said:


> This Khan guy from what I understand likes Sharia law and Islam and such.


Even if true and no idea if it is, it doesn't take away the son's sacrifice. 

In my opinion, Trump sank to his ugliest countless times, and way before the insults at the Khan family, so why did Obama see it appropriate to call Trump "woefully unprepared to become president" only after his latest insults? He didn't just now become the dangerous "know-nothing candidate."

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/28/upshot/donald-trump-twitter-insults.html


----------



## olivaw

Nate Silver's fivethirtyeight now gives Clinton a 68.4% chance of victory. This is a probability of electoral college victory, based on polls. Forecasting on the heels of the conventions is difficult so Trump isn't really out of it yet. He's just having a really bad week. 

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/


----------



## twa2w

sags said:


> Mr. Khan implored the Republican leadership to remove Trump. Obama said the same earlier. Some Republicans have joined the chorus.


If Trump is such an idiot and will seemingly self destruct and be easily beaten, you have to wonder why people on the democratic side would want him replaced.
If they did replace him with a credible candidate, Hilary likely wouldn't stand a chance.
Makes you wonder what they are afraid of.


----------



## bass player

twa2w said:


> If they did replace him with a credible candidate, Hilary likely wouldn't stand a chance.
> Makes you wonder what they are afraid of.


The Dems felt that Hillary was so weak that they rigged the game against a communist


----------



## SMK

^ Using religion no less. “This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and atheist.”


----------



## sags

The Republicans are self imploding anyways. I wonder if they will make it to November.


----------



## SMK

^My thoughts exactly. Trump might just fire himself, or wait until close to the end like Sanders did to see if the FBI would charge or clear Clinton. Trump might be waiting for what else might come out.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

If you believe the news media are independent watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH8dejYGa5A


----------



## new dog

Rusty many here only accept the main stream media despite all the evidence of how they perform. So sometimes I will put up a comment and just forget about the link because unless it is the mainstream media they won't look at it. 

On picking the president lets put it terms of someone living in your neighbourhood.

A. A person who is loud and tells lots of BS who you can just ignore.

B. A person who sneaks into your yard and house and steals stuff and lies when confronted about it.

While neither choice is good I would rather go with the person who I can just ignore then have my house broken into.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Ha Ha maybe Trump's motto should be 'never been under suspicion by the FBI'

If you ask me both are nuts, one who might blunder and start a war, the other who has made many blunders and voted for every war.


----------



## olivaw

American media exists to make money, not to serve political masters. They look for stories with entertainment value and Trump offers them aplenty. It helped him in the primaries when he benefitted from free advertising. In the general election it has hurt him (at least so far) because he keeps screwing up.

Cheer up dog. Early days yet and these little scandals will be quickly forgotten. Time will tell if Trump's doctors can surgically remove foot from mouth


----------



## new dog

Money is part of it but they must obey their masters, even if they don't make as much money. If they made tons of money going after Hillary it still wouldn't happen because that would not be allowed. They have a script to follow and actual reporting is definitely not allowed unless it is approved.


----------



## sags

Now I lay me down to sleep,

I thank Canada for the citizenship I keep,

Please keep me safe from those who rave,

In the land of the free and the home of the brave.


----------



## new dog

Your right Sags americans scream from the rooftops for freedom and liberty. They say they are the beacon for democracy and so on. Yet they give in to a system that money controls. You are bought and then you are free to run for president. You destroy a country and someone makes a ton of money, install a puppet and everyone hates you. It is to much to explain but you get were it is going.


----------



## sags

One insult too many..........

View attachment 11225


In one fell swoop Donald Trump insulted grieving parents, Muslims, immigrants, military veterans and current members of the military.

He also brought an abrupt halt to his chance of victory as Clinton surges ahead by 15% in the polls.


----------



## gibor365

> Sometimes just to remind myself of who exactly is deciding US elections..........I go to Youtube and watch videos of "average" Americans view of the world.


 I liked guy who said that Panama City in Brazil


----------



## gibor365

mordko said:


> Canadians are no better. Most grade 11 students would not be able to name capitals of Norway, Brazil, Austria or Poland. And when I asked a class of 12-year olds 4 years ago, "who is the Prime Minister of Canada", they told me "Obama".


This is our education system fault. My son now in university, daughter finished grade 10, I know exactly what they learn in school ... this is just nightmare ...

Some time ago I did mini research in our company... Practically no one could name capital of Australia, S. Africa, many European countries .... when started WWII and was fighting against whom


----------



## olivaw

gibor365 said:


> Some time ago I did mini research in our company... Practically no one could name capital of Australia, S. Africa, many European countries .... when started WWII and was fighting against whom


You work for a company that hires uninformed people? :hopelessness:


----------



## humble_pie

on a different note, have you heard the conspiracy theory that goes Donald trump was planted as an aide to hillary clinton. His buffoon role is to make sure she gets elected.

trump is a former democrat who crossed the floor. Once upon a time the clintons & the trump couple-du-jour were even said to be friends.


----------



## sags

When Trump realizes he has no chance to win, it will be interesting to see how he reacts.

I can't believe the Republicans who go on in front of the media and say they are hoping Trump changes.

Are they kidding ? If he shows some control for just a little while until he is elected...........it would okay ?

That is like telling a bank robber...........if you just quit robbing banks for a couple of months we will give you the keys to the vault.


----------



## Spudd

sags said:


> In one fell swoop Donald Trump insulted grieving parents, Muslims, immigrants, military veterans and current members of the military.


What did he say?


----------



## new dog

Spudd said:


> What did he say?



I was wondering about the same thing.

Sags bad analogy that one fits Hillary not Donald.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Sags bad analogy that one fits Hillary not Donald.



sags' statement was accurate. The accusations belong to trump, not clinton.


.


----------



## humble_pie

Spudd said:


> What did he say?




surely you are joking here, no? because all the trump quotes which the trump foot has been stuffing into the trump mouth have been front page headlines for months now.

if one were to link the quotes, cmf owners would have to build an additional website.

for the record, here is a sample of some of donald trump's more eloquent pronouncements. Surely they cut the biscuit.


* * * * *​


blocking all muslim travel or immigration into the United States surely cuts the biscuit?

_" 'Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on,' " a december 2015 Trump campaign press release said._


* * * * *​


building a migration barrier wall along the US/mexican border surely cuts the biscuit?

_“I will build a great wall – and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me – and I’ll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words.” 

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists"_


* * * * *​


insulting an american Gold Star mother's religion as she grieves for her slain soldier hero son surely cuts the biscuit?

_"I'd like to hear his wife [Ghazala Khan, wife of Khizr Khan] say something," Trump told The New York Times in response to criticism from the Muslim father of a deceased Army hero.

“If you look at his wife, she was standing there, she had nothing to say, she probably — maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say, you tell me.”_


* * * * *​


insulting prominent US military veterans by implying he dislikes former US presidential candidate John McCain because he was taken prisoner of war while serving in Vietnam, surely that cuts the biscuit?

_" I like people that weren’t captured," Trump told an iowa election campaign forum._


* * * * *​


boasting to ABC News how he won't let russia invade ukraine surely cuts the biscuit?

told that russia had already invaded ukraine in 2014, here's how donald trump covered his backside:

_"He’s not going into Ukraine, okay, just so you understand," Trump continued, presumably talking about how he would stop Putin from making further incursions. "He’s not going to go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want."_


* * * * *​


trying to stampede an election campaign crowd that they were being actively attacked that very moment by mexican air force bombers surely cuts the biscuit?

_" During a speech about trade in New Hampshire on Thursday, June 30, Trump suggested that a plane overhead could be an attack from Mexico.

" 'That could be a Mexican plane up there — they're getting ready to attack,' Trump said at the event."_


* * * * *​


grandiose & unstable remarks like these surely cut the biscuit?

_"My Twitter has become so powerful that I can actually make my enemies tell the truth.”

"My IQ is one of the highest — and you all know it! Please don't feel so stupid or insecure; it's not your fault."_




.


----------



## sags

You could fill a website indeed with Trump's comments that illuminate his personality and temperament, which make him not only unfit for President but also dangerous.

There is great trepidation in the US among security and military folks that Trump will begin receiving security briefings.

With his temperament he is liable to get angry and say........."I know....I know that we are planning something big against Iran."

I can't see how Trump could possibly know something and keep himself from bragging about knowing it.

As Obama said..........this is not a game or reality show. This is very serious business.


----------



## olivaw

Trump had an awful week, but Clinton had a few problems too. She continues to answer questions about her email server so poorly that she is playing into the "dishonest" narrative. Those stories will get coverage, especially from right wing news sources like Fox which caters to the Trump demographic. Here are a few Fox stories from today: 


Clinton tries to 'clarify' email comments – and adds to confusion
Was Trump right? Iran video may show US cash payment
Vicious Cycle: Press pounds Trump, then pounces on poor polls
Syrian refugees surge into US; Obama on track to hit target amid security concerns
Krauthammer on Hillary Clinton: 'She needs lying lessons from her husband


I like Hillary Clinton but she is vulnerable and there is plenty of time left.


----------



## bass player

Hillary has her first "press conference" in 230 days...to select left wing media groupies, excuse me, to "journalists" who lob softball questions and cheer and applaud her answers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yeziJP5ySY


----------



## Spudd

Thanks Humble. I had heard some of those but not all. I was actually curious about Sags' "one fell swoop" statement. I knew he had said things about the Khans but it sounded like he had made some new outrageous statement I hadn't heard of yet.


----------



## new dog

Humble you might find this clip of an 11 year old on CNN from you tube very enjoyable. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh3Itvz3TAE


On a different matter what about all these dead bodies showing up around Clinton. Sorry from zero hedge but here you go.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...linton-dnc-fraud-case-mysteriously-found-dead


----------



## james4beach

The thing that amazes me about Trump is that he is totally full of sh*t ... a complete liar and phony. It's amazing how many people have been *fooled* by Trump.

Additionally, all the racists in the country love Trump ... including the former leader of the KKK. What a sh*t show! This is like a Jerry Springer episode: Trump expresses his sexual desire for his daughter, then gets a hug from the Grand Wizard of the KKK.


----------



## bass player

james4beach said:


> The thing that amazes me about Trump is that he is totally full of sh*t ... a complete liar and phony. It's amazing how many people have been *fooled* by Trump.


The same can be said about Hillary. Actually, even more so.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Humble you might find this clip of an 11 year old on CNN from you tube very enjoyable.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh3Itvz3TAE
> 
> 
> On a different matter what about all these dead bodies showing up around Clinton. Sorry from zero hedge but here you go.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...linton-dnc-fraud-case-mysteriously-found-dead




so sorry but those are typical trump trash links imho .each:

11-year-old son of the trump veep candidate is exploited to read a teleprompter line to camera that he obviously does not understand ... so ?

crazed by yet another bout of clinical paranoia, zerohedge fantasizes that hillary clinton is now murdering her political opponents ... so ?

what the 2 links show is how desperate the trump retinue is becoming


.


----------



## new dog

The first one was from CNN so it is golden.

On the second there is a ton of fishy stuff going on around Hillary and this has gone on for decades even before Trump even considered running. I just googled for a list of her scandals and here you go.

http://www.wnd.com/2015/05/here-they-are-hillarys-22-biggest-scandals-ever/


----------



## sags

All of this is making Americans yearn for Barrack Obama to stay on for another term.

He is leaving as a pretty popular President. He has a solid record of accomplishments, especially given the Republicans refused to cooperate from day one.

But alas, he doesn't sound like he would even want to, and Michelle Obama says she has had enough of "the life" in the White House.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> The first one was from CNN so it is golden.



no, it's not golden.

like i mentioned, the child was obviously exploited to read a teleprompter line to camera that he clearly does not understand.

would that be momma missus pence sitting by his side with the smirk on her face?

fortunately there's probably a limit to what a child can be coached to read off a teleprompter.

otherwise we might see the trump campaign morphing into the children's crusade, in an effort to cute-se-fy trump's image & repair the damage he has caused.

dogcom, as for your other links, thankx for offering but i truly have no time to look. There are oceans & black holes full of trash, perversions & worse in the internet, no reasonable person will go there. Attempting to accuse hillary clinton of murder last month is a perversion imho.


.


----------



## olivaw

Politifact is an independent fact-checking website that has investigated presidential candidates since 2007. 


The most honest are Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. 

The most dishonest is Donald Trump (Dishonest Donald?)


----------



## new dog

If what you say is true Humble then this is what you get from the mainstream media. This is the sort of crap you see on CNN and Hillary is totally dishonest olivaw. Being a Hillary supporter is equally as stupid as being a Trump supporter, isn't it from the logic here.


----------



## humble_pie

? but how is hillary dishonest?

olivaw has just posted a study showing that hillary has lied among the least - ranked 2nd lowest just above obama - while donald trump has lied the most.

dogcom i know we are never going to change your mindset so perhaps it's useless to carry on? for you, hillary clinton will always be a crook who should be jailed, even though she has never even been charged with anything, let alone convicted.

plus according to yourself, hillary clinton is a leader who is going to bring on nuclear war with russia, the aftermath of which will be a "nuclear winter" during which you have posted, dogcom, that somehow you will be happy. Radioactive perhaps, but happy.

i'm leaving out the banks for the time being. But surely you have a full-blown conspiracy theory about the banks as well ? each:

.


----------



## new dog

The system supports her not Trump that is obvious to see. Ask Sanders supporters and many of them won't vote for Trump but may vote someone else besides those two.

Should anyone support Trump, of course not but Americans are waking up to this rigged system.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> ? but how is hillary dishonest?


That comment is why some people think liberalism is a mental illness. In spite of several video examples of her lying, you continue to pretend that she never has. The phrase "useful idiot" comes to mind...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The FBI recently did an investigation and concluded Hillary Clinton broke the law by using a home made unsecure email server for classified communication then lied about it. But declined to prosecute.

Just the latest serious blunder and coverup.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> That comment is why some people think liberalism is a mental illness. In spite of several video examples of her lying, you continue to pretend that she never has. The phrase "useful idiot" comes to mind...



c'mon bass player this is a forum where participants are supposed to do much better than this.

newbies on here who can do nothing more than schlob out insults like the above are pitiful ... :biggrin:

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> c'mon bass player this is a forum where participants are supposed to do much better than this.
> 
> newbies on here who can do nothing more than schlob out insults like the above are pitiful ... :biggrin:
> 
> .


I'll make a deal with you...you stop insulting our intelligence by claiming Hillary is honest, and I won't insult you. :biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The FBI recently did an investigation and concluded Hillary Clinton broke the law by using a home made unsecure email server for classified communication then lied about it. But declined to prosecute.
> 
> Just the latest serious blunder and coverup.



i believe it was something like 3 e-mails with minor information that may have been classifiied - hillary has denied that it was classified - out of more than 30,000 e-mails.

if not prosecuted before a proper tribunal & if she denies, how can she objectively be said to have lied about the episode? are you saying that anyone can charge anybody with anything howsoever false & the charged party is therefore automatically guilty?

fortunately in canada we had Marie Henein to uphold the age-old principle of innocent until proven guilty

.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> I'll make a deal with you...you stop insulting our intelligence by claiming Hillary is honest, and I won't insult you. :biggrin:



sorry, won't work

you have no intelligence each:


----------



## mordko

Over 2000 emails contained classified information. Over 100 of them were marked as classified when they were sent the rest were identified as containing classified info retroactively. In any case the onus is on the sender to ensure security classification is correct.

Clinton has lied again and again. She is still the lesser of the two evils.


----------



## humble_pie

^^

would you have a qualified source for the 100? all i've heard is 3, so i'd like to update if necessary

as for the remaining 1900 that were retroactively identified as classified info, let's toss that rubbish. Who did the retro upgrading, trump's camp followers?

this is a minotaur's maze that's not worth walking into. She wasn't charged. Thirty-three thousand e-mails containing critical military, diplomatic & corporate information are probably stolen every hour by chinese hackers alone, not to speak of russian, east european & southeast asian internet hackers. 

she wasn't charged. Let's move along.

.


----------



## mordko

Rubbish that needs to be tossed is pretty much every word typed by HP.

Here is the statement by FBI director James Comey. https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> Rubbish that needs to be tossed is pretty much every word typed by HP.



just another harassing insult from the usual source

posts like the above are 100% against the rules, surely you were smart enough to have read the rules ... :biggrin:


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Rubbish that needs to be tossed is pretty much every word typed by HP.
> 
> Here is the statement by FBI director James Comey. https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system


Facts don't matter to Hillary supporters...they just make up their own alternate reality.


----------



## mordko

I think HP is admitting that her posts are against the rules. Because I merely quoted her words to her, but adjusted the context so that its aligned with factual information.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> Facts don't matter to Hillary supporters...they just make up their own alternate reality.


Far from all supporters are like this, but you are certainly correct in this case.


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> Here is the statement by FBI director James Comey. https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system



exactly. The FBI concludes & recommends to Justice that there is no evidence for prosecution of the secretary of state.

from mordko's link:



> In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted involved some combination of: clearly intentional and willful mishandling of classified information; or vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct; or indications of disloyalty to the United States; or efforts to obstruct justice. We do not see those things here.
> 
> As a result, although the Department of Justice makes final decisions on matters like this, we are expressing to Justice our view that no charges are appropriate in this case.



once again, it's time to Move Along

.


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> I think HP is admitting that her posts are against the rules. Because I merely quoted her words to her, but adjusted the context so that its aligned with factual information.



no, without provocation you personally insulted me in your trademark rude, vicious & offensive manner. The manner in which you so frequently attack others, even though you are a newcomer with no rep & no cred in this forum.


here is your post. It is a violation of forum rules.




mordko said:


> Rubbish that needs to be tossed is pretty much every word typed by HP.



.


----------



## mordko

Really? You? HP? Complaining about insults? You cannot be serious. Look up your posts in this thread - or reread a few of your postings for the last couple of months to find out what real insults look like.


----------



## mordko

A beautiful example of unprovoked insults, blatant lying, general humbug and complete lack of knowledge of the subject in just a few comments:


> HP: ? but how is hillary dishonest?





> HP: i believe it was something like 3 e-mails with minor information that may have been classifiied - hillary has denied that it was classified - out of more than 30,000 e-mails.





> HP: you have no intelligence





> HP: as for the remaining 1900 that were retroactively identified as classified info, let's toss that rubbish. Who did the retro upgrading, trump's camp followers?


FBI Director:


> From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent.





> HP: exactly. The FBI concludes & recommends to Justice that there is no evidence for prosecution of the secretary of state.


So we have a blatantly false, factually incorrect claim followed by change of subject when it was demonstrated that at least 110 emails contained classified information and that Clinton lied. We also have an insult followed by complaint of being insulted. 

Can one possibly be any more hypocritical?


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> Really? You? HP? Complaining about insults?



yes i'm complaining about your insults ... :biggrin:
look at your own posts ... :biggrin:
look in the mirror ... :biggrin:


alas, the influx of rabid social media types with little or no financial input in recent months has pretty near destroyed the forum. Another raft of valuable old-time members with marked & strong financial expertise has recently left, have you not noticed?

they left because of hysterical tantrums, angry outbursts & foam-at-the-mouth ranting coming from the handful of social media advocates ... including yourself ...

.


----------



## mordko

Here is an even better sequence:



> HP: you have no intelligence





> HP: as for the remaining 1900 that were retroactively identified as classified info, let's toss that rubbish. Who did the retro upgrading, trump's camp followers?





> HP: here is your post. It is a violation of forum rules.
> 
> 
> Quote Originally Posted by mordko "Rubbish that needs to be tossed is pretty much every word typed by HP".


----------



## mordko

And for the record, several long-term forum members told me that people have left the forum because of HP. I have personally seen three specific examples of vicious, entirely unprovoked malign attacks by HP:

1. Here: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...adians-(or-former-ones)-care-to-share-stories. A poor old man has been attacked out of the blue as "an aging playboy" and then a liar without a shred of evidence. 

2. I was racially attacked as a British citizen who does not have the right to comment on British affairs because I don't have a "drop of Saxon blood". It was subsequently claimed that I am disloyal because I immigrated to Canada and that Canada is banning dual citizenship. 

3. A couple of weeks ago an old man on this forum was attacked for being an old man with claims that children shouldn't be permitted anywhere near him and other vile and disgusting statements.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> i believe it was something like 3 e-mails with minor information that may have been classifiied - hillary has denied that it was classified - out of more than 30,000 e-mails.
> 
> if not prosecuted before a proper tribunal & if she denies, how can she objectively be said to have lied about the episode? are you saying that anyone can charge anybody with anything howsoever false & the charged party is therefore automatically guilty?
> 
> fortunately in canada we had Marie Henein to uphold the age-old principle of innocent until proven guilty
> 
> .


This is from the FBI's press release https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system

"From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent.

The FBI also discovered several thousand work-related e-mails that were not in the group of 30,000 that were returned by Secretary Clinton to State in 2014. We found those additional e-mails in a variety of ways. Some had been deleted over the years and we found traces of them on devices that supported or were connected to the private e-mail domain. Others we found by reviewing the archived government e-mail accounts of people who had been government employees at the same time as Secretary Clinton, including high-ranking officials at other agencies, people with whom a Secretary of State might naturally correspond.

This helped us recover work-related e-mails that were not among the 30,000 produced to State. Still others we recovered from the laborious review of the millions of e-mail fragments dumped into the slack space of the server decommissioned in 2013.

With respect to the thousands of e-mails we found that were not among those produced to State, agencies have concluded that three of those were classified at the time they were sent or received, one at the Secret level and two at the Confidential level. There were no additional Top Secret e-mails found. Finally, none of those we found have since been “up-classified.”"

How she can be said to have lied? Here is how the Washinton Post explains it https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...irector-said-her-email-answers-were-truthful/


----------



## sags

Many criminal charges have components that must be fully met to bring charges forward (such as criminal intent), that appear to be absent in the case with the email server, at least from the viewpoint of the FBI and Justice Departments.

It was inappropriate to use an unsecured server in her home for government business, but it stretches credibility to believe she did so for any other reasons than convenience. There is no evidence of nefarious reasons for doing so.

As the Secretary of State, Clinton would need to be in contact with many sources around the world at all hours, and she cannot spend all of her time in the secure office at the State Department replying to emails. She doesn't live in her office.

She had the authority to have a secured government server installed in her home, but decided it wasn't necessary apparently.

While she has admitted it was foolish of her not to do so, investigations showed nothing nefarious and it is a lesson learned.

From what I have read, Clinton is not the first Secretary of State who used a personal server. It has been a past practice, but the dangers of hacking weren't as prevalent as they are today.

After decades of public service, any politician is going to have some baggage. 

Hillary Clinton's legacy of good work overshadows her mistakes by a wide margin.

Lastly, the Republicans (or whoever is the opposition) and the media are always pressing for full transparency and disclosure.

In an ideal world that would be possible, but in today's reality secrets must be held within the government to maintain security and protect assets around the world. In some cases politicians must lie to the public and media so that information isn't revealed.

Benghazi is a good example. An attack happens in the middle of the night. There are early reports of a protest video.

The media clamors for information and State Department spokespeople give the information they have at the time.

As it turned out, the information was wrong and opposition have jumped on it as a deliberate attempt to mislead.

The mistake was in giving out any information at all about a fluid situation that lasted for hours. The communications from Benghazi was scant, conflicting and unreliable and nobody knew exactly what was happening. Many of the accusations against Clinton have been dismissed in countless hours of investigations and government hearings.

Government officials should rely more on "no comment at this time", rather than bowing to pressures to "say something".

Lessons learned. Maybe in the future government officials will say less until they have the full facts, but then media will complain about that.


----------



## mordko

She has lied to public about the emails. She did so again and again and continues to do so. Suppose it comes with the name.

Whether her actions justified a criminal case or not, I have no idea but it is very unfortunate that General Attorney had a friendly chit chat with Bill just before the decision was taken not to prosecute. Then again, I am glad they did take this decision given that she is the last person standing between Trump and the presidency - however flawed she is.

There are a couple of videos on the web which appear to indicate that Hillary is having major health issues. It's a scary thought.


----------



## sags

If the AG had a discussion with Bill Clinton about the findings of the FBI, the only thing he could have said was that the FBI didn't reveal any intent of wrong doing or grounds for criminal charges, because those were facts.

Had the FBI found wrong doing and recommended criminal charges, that is what the AG would have had to convey to the Clintons.

Should the Clintons learn of the findings through a public press conference ?

Hillary Clinton has had health problems in the past. I believe the selection of Tim Kaine is a reflection of Clinton acknowledging the possibility of future health problems.

As she said..........the most important factor in choosing a VP is that they have the ability to step into the job right away.

The choice of Clinton's VP is in stark contrast to past choices by others who nominated their VP to gain votes in certain sectors.

John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin comes immediately to mind. Was she really capable of assuming the office of President ?

A lot of people wanted Clinton to choose other candidates for other reasons such as capturing the Latino vote, but Clinton showed by her choice that she had the concern of her country foremost in her mind.


----------



## s123

new dog said:


> The system supports her not Trump that is obvious to see. Ask Sanders supporters and many of them won't vote for Trump but may vote someone else besides those two.
> 
> Should anyone support Trump, of course not but Americans are waking up to this rigged system.


Yep! The current election system is failed. 
The voting machine & counting machine aren't secured also. 

The fair elections results are counted by hand.

Could the 2016 Election Be Stolen with Help from Electronic Voting Machines? : (video 36:16~)
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/23/could_the_2016_election_be_stolen

HARVEY WASSERMAN: Well, electronic voting was used to steal the presidential election right here in Ohio in 2004. John Kerry was the rightful winner in 2004 over George W. Bush. The secretary of state at the time, J. Kenneth Blackwell, and the governor, Robert Taft, used their power of electronic vote count to flip the vote to George W. Bush from John Kerry.

AMY GOODMAN: How do you know this?

HARVEY WASSERMAN: We watched it—I grew up here, Amy. We watched it, totally, right up close and personal. We did the accounting. I work with a political scientist named Bob Fitrakis. We’re about to come out with another book, The Strip & Flip of the 2016 Selection. They are stripping the voter rolls—and Greg Palast, the great investigative reporter, is doing great on this—removing African Americans, Hispanics, people who might incline to vote progressive, and they—so that—in 2004, they stripped 300,000 people from the voter rolls here in the urban areas. Bush only won by less than 120 [thousand]....


Rigged USA Elections Exposed :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs
Uploaded on Mar 2, 2006
Computer Programmer testifies that Tom Feeney (Speaker of the Houe of Florida at the time, currently US Representative representing MY district ) tried to pay him to rig election vote counts.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> If the AG had a discussion with Bill Clinton about the findings of the FBI, the only thing he could have said was that the FBI didn't reveal any intent of wrong doing or grounds for criminal charges, because those were facts.
> 
> Had the FBI found wrong doing and recommended criminal charges, that is what the AG would have had to convey to the Clintons.
> 
> Should the Clintons learn of the findings through a public press conference ?
> 
> Hillary Clinton has had health problems in the past. I believe the selection of Tim Kaine is a reflection of Clinton acknowledging the possibility of future health problems.
> 
> As she said..........the most important factor in choosing a VP is that they have the ability to step into the job right away.
> 
> The choice of Clinton's VP is in stark contrast to past choices by others who nominated their VP to gain votes in certain sectors.
> 
> John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin comes immediately to mind. Was she really capable of assuming the office of President ?
> 
> A lot of people wanted Clinton to choose other candidates for other reasons such as capturing the Latino vote, but Clinton showed by her choice that she had the concern of her country foremost in her mind.


AG acknowledged it was wrong to meet the hubby. It's kinda obvious, so not sure what you are trying to say. 

And i am more concerned with Hillary staying healthy before the election than after.


----------



## bass player

"Gov. Terry McAuliffe will allow more than 200,000 ex-cons in Virginia to register to vote in the upcoming presidential election, one of the biggest actions taken by a state to instantly restore voting rights.

The announcement Friday immediately drew criticism who viewed McAuliffe’s action as a blatant favor to his longtime friend Hillary Clinton, for whom he and his wife recently raised $2 million at their McLean home.

McAuliffe, a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and chairman of Clinton’s 2008 campaign for president, said he couldn’t say what impact the move would have on her current race for the White House."

The overwhelming majority of prisoners vote Democrat, but that must just be a coincidence... :biggrin: :biggrin:

Also, California now allows illegal aliens to apply for a driver's licence...of course, it's just another coincidence that people with driver's licenses automatically end up on the voting registry, and that illegal aliens overwhelmingly vote Democrat. :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## bass player

More Democrat voter fraud:

"A group that had been represented by the top lawyer for Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign earlier this year is now being investigated by Ohio authorities for fraudulent voter registrations, including the registration of deceased individuals."

http://www.progressivestoday.com/cl...charged-with-registering-dead-people-to-vote/


----------



## olivaw

Republicans are turning their backs on Trump. Fox News is appalled. Trump won't lose because of voter fraud, he will lose because he is unfit to lead the United States. 






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOaKo3Ii4A


----------



## new dog

Bass player the driver license thing to illegal aliens was the one I was thinking about before when I said the Dems plan to get illegals to vote.

S123 I have also heard that they don't want to demand picture ID because it would hurt poor people who may not have appropriate ID to vote. Of course it is just another get votes for Dems scam. Also before the Liberals here go nuts saying this is true we need the poor to vote, don't forget if voter fraud occurs it can cut both ways in the future.

Olivaw the republicans wanted Trump even after he said a bunch of stuff because that is who he is. The elite republicans who don't want an un paid for un indoctrinated Trump. So they jumped on the band wagon of that Khan job train because they saw the media had him on the ropes.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Republicans are turning their backs on Trump. Fox News is appalled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOaKo3Ii4A


Not "Fox News". One particular pundit who stated"but this is just my opinion". Other Fox pundits stated that they won't vote for Trump, eg George Will, Steve Hayes, Guy Benson, Mark Salter, Jamie Weinstein , etc. Plenty of Fox journalists, as opposed to pundits, have not declared one way or another.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> Not "Fox News". One particular pundit who stated"but this is just my opinion". Other Fox pundits stated that they won't vote for Trump, eg George Will, Steve Hayes, Guy Benson, Mark Salter, Jamie Weinstein , etc. Plenty of Fox journalists, as opposed to pundits, have not declared one way or another.


Perhaps you believe that Fox is fair and balanced. :stupid: Cast such nonsense from your mind. Fox News has thrown in with Trump for business reasons. 





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqnJpjVP6TI


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Perhaps you believe that Fox is fair and balanced. :stupid:


At least the Fox reporters don't cheer and applaud for Trump at press conferences like the mainstream does for Hillary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yeziJP5ySY

By the way, I posted that earlier, but all the Hillary supporters must have been struck dumb since they had no comment... :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## olivaw

^ the dead link may explain the crickets.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> ^ the dead link may explain the crickets.


It's funny how the clips that make Hillary look bad always disappear, but the Trump ones live on... :biggrin:


----------



## sags

The Republicans remind me of the Conservatives in Canada.

They are on the wrong side of most issues with the public, but are convinced they know better and can persuade everyone else to agree with them.


----------



## mordko

Claiming that conservatives are somehow not a part of Canadian public is an outrageous statement. Public is diverse and isn't made up of New Democrats alone. And the majority isn't always right, respect for minority views is an important part of the system unless you live in Russia, Iran or Cuba. And trying to persuade people is exactly what political parties are supposed to do.


----------



## frauds_by_casinos

Hillary must win the election, otherwise Trump will Bankrupt the America like he did so many times to Trump Casinos and hotel.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Perhaps you believe that Fox is fair and balanced. :stupid: Cast such nonsense from your mind. Fox News has thrown in with Trump for business reasons.


No, nobody is fair and balanced. Pandits are not even MEANT to be balanced. Fox is a private media organization with right of centre angle which provides a little bit of counterbalance to the liberal media which is dominant. 

The real outrage is lack of balance by the taxpayer funded CBC. I don't care if they want to oppose conservatives as long as I am not forced to pay for their left wing propaganda.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> The real outrage is lack of balance by the taxpayer funded CBC. I don't care if they want to oppose conservatives as long as I am not forced to pay for their left wing propaganda.


Kathleen Wynne actually thanked CBC on camera for their support after she was elected.


----------



## mordko

Yeah, she should have thanked Tim first though.


----------



## olivaw

I'm OK with conservatives trying to explain their viewpoint but the whining about the "liberal media bias" suggests that some conservatives don't have much to say. Trump is already making excuses for his upcoming loss.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> No, nobody is fair and balanced. Pandits are not even MEANT to be balanced. Fox is a private media organization with right of centre angle which provides a little bit of counterbalance to the liberal media which is dominant.
> 
> The real outrage is lack of balance by the taxpayer funded CBC. I don't care if they want to oppose conservatives as long as I am not forced to pay for their left wing propaganda.


Sure, but FOX's slogan is 'fair and balanced'. It is not what is says on the tin.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Sure, but FOX's slogan is 'fair and balanced'. It is not what is says on the tin.


Everyone broadcasting believes they are fair and balanced, even the likes of CBC and BBC which are demonstrably unfair and unbalanced. Fox News anchors are very balanced, although that obviously depends on ones perspective. Nobody expects pundits to be balanced, that's not their job.


----------



## mordko

The Iranian nuclear scientists who had given information to US and was murdered by the regime a couple of days ago may have been compromised by Hillary.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> The Iranian nuclear scientists who had given information to US and was murdered by the regime a couple of days ago may have been compromised by Hillary.


Yup...another Hillary national security breach completely ignored by most of the media. Business as usual...


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> Yup...another Hillary national security breach completely ignored by most of the media. Business as usual...


Politico talks about it: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/iran-executes-nuclear-scientist-who-spied-for-us-226763. So did Tom Cotton, so it's a developing story.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Politico talks about it: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/iran-executes-nuclear-scientist-who-spied-for-us-226763. So did Tom Cotton, so it's a developing story.


I'm referring to the mainstream media....ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, etc. They are still silent even though the story broke days ago.


----------



## Esco

Its disgusting how left-wing the bias is in US mainstream media!!

YUCK!!! :uncomfortableness:


----------



## olivaw

Nate Silver's fivethirtyeight uses polling data to project the outcome of the 2016 presidential election. At this time it gives Hillary Clinton an 83% chance of victory, projecting her to win 353 of 538 electoral votes.

In the 2012 presidential election, Barack Obama captured 332 electoral votes to defeat Mitt Romney.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

frauds_by_casinos said:


> Hillary must win the election, otherwise Trump will Bankrupt the America like he did so many times to Trump Casinos and hotel.


Trump is involved in more than 500 businesses of which 4 have gone bankrupt. Would you sign a baseball player who struck out 4 times in 500 at bats? Who wouldn't?

Trump's problem isn't the number of bankrupt companies he was involved in. The problems are deeper than that.


----------



## BoringInvestor

bass player said:


> Kathleen Wynne actually thanked CBC on camera for their support after she was elected.


Are you talking about this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1tFPH7yk7w

To me it seems more benign: she's thanking them for the work they do as they report while travelling with the politicians as they criss-cross the province.
They have to form tight working relationships in close proximity (aka 'working with us') as they cover stop after stop.


----------



## sags

Trump was getting more boos than cheers at his big economics speech today.

Detroit it would appear, doesn't think much of his Reagan Junior plan.

Maybe it is because it was Reagan's plan that led to deregulation of financial institutions and cost millions of Americans their homes, jobs and retirements.

Anti-regulation, anti-union, pro Wall Street, trickle down economics. Yup, that is just what Americans need and want.

Conservatives move ahead by going back 40 years.


----------



## mordko

Ronald Reagan is one of the most popular US presidents in recent memory. Trump is NOTHING like Reagan.


----------



## sags

After listening to Barrack Obama for the past 8 years, I wish both Clinton and Trump would stop screaming into the microphones all the time.

Trump sounds like a drunken uncle and Clinton sounds like somebody stepped on a cat.


----------



## s123

bass player said:


> More Democrat voter fraud:
> 
> "A group that had been represented by the top lawyer for Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign earlier this year is now being investigated by Ohio authorities for fraudulent voter registrations, including the registration of deceased individuals."
> 
> http://www.progressivestoday.com/cl...charged-with-registering-dead-people-to-vote/


Here is another example of unsecured voting system.
What's the point doing election that's not count properly or uncounted?
It's just wasting everybody's time & money during those long campaign.
There are a lot of obvious problems.
Then...why don't we fix it?


Votes are being counted as fractions instead of as whole numbers.:
http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/08/02/us-election-shocker-is-this-how-the-vote-will-be-rigged/


“GEMS vote-counting systems are and have been operated under five trade names: Global Election Systems, Diebold Election Systems, Premier Election Systems, Dominion Voting Systems, and Election Systems & Software, in addition to a number of private regional subcontractors. At the time of this writing, this system is used statewide in Alaska, Connecticut, Georgia, Mississippi, New Hampshire, Utah and Vermont, and for counties in Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin and Wyoming. It is also used in Canada.”

“Instead of ‘1’ the vote is allowed to be 1/2, or 1+7/8, or any other value that is not a whole number.”

“Weighting a race [through the use of GEMS] removes the principle of ‘one person-one vote’ to allow some votes to be counted as less than one or more than one. Regardless of what the real votes are, candidates can receive a set percentage of votes. Results can be controlled. For example, Candidate A can be assigned 44% of the votes, Candidate B 51%, and Candidate C the rest.”
“All evidence that [rigged] fractional values ever existed [in the GEMS system] can be removed instantly even from the underlying database using a setting in the GEMS data tables, in which case even instructing GEMS to show the [rigged] decimals will fail to reveal they were used.”


----------



## bass player

What are they hiding regarding Hillary's health?

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog...th_an_antiseizure_injection_at_the_ready.html


----------



## new dog

She hasn't looked good when we have seen her on TV.

Here is another main stream media cap on negative Hillary talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UAiIuIe5Ro


----------



## olivaw

At this point, I am unsure why Hillary Clinton needs to campaign. 

Trump's superficial and childlike understanding of NATO and international affairs have him being called the most dangerous man in the world. 50 Republican security experts penned a letter stating he he “lacks the character, values and experience” to be president. Republican candidates continue to distance themselves from Trump, many publicly declaring that they will not vote for him. 

No wonder Nate Silver has increased Clinton's odds of victory to 87.5%.


----------



## bass player

^^

Cherry picked MSM stories. There are just as many people that don't like Hillary...we just never read about them. NO ONE has ever suggested with a straight face that Hillary has good character or values.

How come the MSM media is still ignoring the email breach that may have cost the life of the Iranian scientist? How come the evidence of her poor and failing health is being ignored? Do you think it would be newsworthy if Trump needed assistance to climb a simple set of stairs, or had a hole in his tongue, or had what appeared to be seizures on a regular basis?


----------



## kcowan

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump is involved in more than 500 businesses of which 4 have gone bankrupt. Would you sign a baseball player who struck out 4 times in 500 at bats? Who wouldn't?
> 
> Trump's problem isn't the number of bankrupt companies he was involved in. The problems are deeper than that.


We need to know about those 500 businesses and he won't tell us. Statistically 10% of them should be stars. Has anyone heard of any stars?


----------



## bass player

kcowan said:


> We need to know about those 500 businesses and he won't tell us. Statistically 10% of them should be stars. Has anyone heard of any stars?


More importantly, people need to know the truth about Hillary's health. Why does she need help to climb a simple set of stairs? Why does she have a hole in her tongue? What kind of seizures has she been having?


----------



## BoringInvestor

bass player said:


> ^^
> 
> Cherry picked MSM stories. There are just as many people that don't like Hillary...we just never read about them. NO ONE has ever suggested with a straight face that Hillary has good character or values.
> 
> How come the MSM media is still ignoring the email breach that may have cost the life of the Iranian scientist? How come the evidence of her poor and failing health is being ignored? Do you think it would be newsworthy if Trump needed assistance to climb a simple set of stairs, or had a hole in his tongue, or had what appeared to be seizures on a regular basis?


Oh I dunno, I think some people like her and think she's a really good person.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> ^^
> 
> Cherry picked MSM stories. There are just as many people that don't like Hillary...we just never read about them. NO ONE has ever suggested with a straight face that Hillary has good character or values.
> 
> How come the MSM media is still ignoring the email breach that may have cost the life of the Iranian scientist? How come the evidence of her poor and failing health is being ignored? Do you think it would be newsworthy if Trump needed assistance to climb a simple set of stairs, or had a hole in his tongue, or had what appeared to be seizures on a regular basis?


LOL Bass. The reason that it is necessary to cherry pick stories is that there is so much material. Trump's bizarre economic speech, his bromance with Vlad Putin, his childlike foreign policy, his immature personal behavior - the list goes on and on. This is a man who (it is believed) leaked naked pictures of his own wife to distract from his blunders. He brags about knowing more than anybody else in the United States while demonstrating a below-average understanding of current affairs. He stays up half the night sending bizarre tweets and sends his children out to explain them. He has been shown to be the least honest candidate of the past 20 years. The list goes on and on. 

I don't think conspiracy theories about Clinton's health are going to help. Trump is so toxic that he may well be remembered as the worst presidential candidate in the history of the United States of America.


----------



## bass player

Is that the only response you have...any questions about Hillary are automatically dismissed as a "conspiracy theory" when you are unable to answer the questions?

Why does she have a hole in her tongue? Is it a health problem or a "conspiracy theory"? Perhaps you think that the photos were doctored?

Why does she need help up the stairs? Is this yet another "conspiracy theory", or is it further proof of the continuing balance issues she has suffered over the last several years?

Why is she suffering from seizures? One more "conspiracy theory", or further proof of her health problems that may make her unsuitable for office?


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Why does she have a hole in her tongue? Is it a health problem or a "conspiracy theory"? Perhaps you think that the photos were doctored?


She's an alien from the planet Xgrrhl. The hole in the tongue is for mating. 



bass player said:


> Why does she need help up the stairs? Is this yet another "conspiracy theory", or is it further proof of the continuing balance issues she has suffered over the last several years?


Xgrrhlians covered their planet with escalators so long ago that they forgot how to use stairs. 



bass player said:


> Why is she suffering from seizures? One more "conspiracy theory", or further proof of her health problems that may make her unsuitable for office?


Not a seizure, a popular Xgrrhlian dance move. 

each:


----------



## bass player

^^

This time it's bad humour...anything except answering the questions. :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## olivaw

Lighten up.  Surely you don't believe that your questions will be taken seriously by anyone other than Trump supporters.

Back to my original point, Trump has proven himself to be unfit for the job. His supporters will throw "mud" at Clinton in the hopes that some of it sticks but that won't change the fact that Trump is toxic.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Lighten up. Surely you don't believe that your questions will be taken seriously by anyone other than Trump supporters.


Her health is a very important and very serious issue. The job of president is extremely demanding and if her health is not up to it, the people have a right to know. Just because those who support her refuse to acknowledge the topic and hope that it will go away, that doesn't make the issue irrelevant.

Bringing up Trump yet again is just another weak attempt at deflection.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Her health is a very important and very serious issue. The job of president is extremely demanding and if her health is not up to it, the people have a right to know. Just because those who support her refuse to acknowledge the topic and hope that it will go away, that doesn't make the issue irrelevant.
> 
> Bringing up Trump yet again is just another weak attempt at deflection.


Unsubstantiated rumours from right wing blogs are not serious - no matter how often you repeat them. 

The political story of the week is the Trump train wreck.Everything else is deflection. Republicans *continue to abandon him*. Today, two prominent Republican former administrators of the Environmental Protection Agency warned about Donald Trump's "profound ignorance of science." Trump is not just _on_ a sinking ship, he _is_ the sinking ship.


----------



## sags

VP Tim Kaine is perfectly capable of stepping into the role of President if need be, so Hillary's health really isn't an issue.

Trump should resign and let someone else take over.........maybe Mitt Romney and Jeb Bush in no particular order.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Unsubstantiated rumours from right wing blogs are not serious - no matter how often you repeat them.


The photos of the hole in Hillary's tongue are real. You can't dismiss every single source that isn't left leaning, just because facts you don't like come up.

Either a fork in her tongue is forming, or she had surgery, possibly for cancer.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> VP Tim Kaine is perfectly capable of stepping into the role of President if need be, so Hillary's health really isn't an issue..


Yes, it is an issue. She can't climb stairs unassisted and there is evidence of seizures. At what point do her supporters stop denying the evidence?


----------



## sags

Those hefty secret security guys can carry her around like a princess.........

View attachment 11241


Maybe the bearers could dress up in military attire from the American Revolution and start a new tradition.


----------



## sags

I doubt a serious illness would be kept a secret for long. 

Someone would leak it out........a doctor, nurse, receptionist, dietary porter, housekeeper.


----------



## sags

Those right wing conspiracy stories are compilations of old photos of Clinton slipping on a set of stairs. She fractured her arm and was being helped up.

They also show old photos of Clinton leaving the hospital after treatment for blood clots. That was back in 2012.

The right wing media is getting desperate, but they shouldn't worry about job security.

They will have 8 years of another Clinton Presidency to rant about.


----------



## olivaw

Trump's team is phoning it in. They can't even come up with new conspiracy theories any more.


----------



## Esco

Wow, check out Wikileaks latest video. They claim murdered DNC staffer Seth Rich was a wikileaks source.

Unfortunately I cant post links yet. Check wikileaks twitter


----------



## Esco

Better yet, check gatewaypundit DOT com


----------



## andrewf

Hillary using stairs unassisted, from July 5th:

https://youtu.be/MFriXwmoOEs?t=1h59s

About the tongue hole, this is the first I've heard of it. It seems to be all based on one picture (from what I've gathered). It could be a manipulated image, or only the appearance of a hole. Who knows. But it seems exceedingly unlikely that there would not be many photos showing evidence of such a hole, and many first hand accounts have having seen it.

So, we have unsubstantiated rumours of Hillary's ill-health stacked up against Trump's self-evident ignorance, bad judgement, emotional & capricious temperament. The guy who wants to abandon Nato allies to Vladimir Putin and encourage games of chicken with Russia. The phony billionaire whose business success is inversely proportional to his level of involvement (he seems to only make money when he licenses his name).


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> The photos of the hole in Hillary's tongue are real. You can't dismiss every single source that isn't left leaning, just because facts you don't like come up.
> 
> Either a fork in her tongue is forming, or she had surgery, possibly for cancer.



why are you repeating though

they've explained the facts of life to you, it's for mating
the photos are shopped
let's move on


----------



## mordko

We just need Hillary to last till November.


----------



## new dog

Bass could be right because the media has not covered very much of anything negative regarding Hillary.

Also many here are blaming Bass of conspiracy theories and yet they belief Hillary is honest. 

How about all the Wikileaks stuff coming out from Assange.

http://yournewswire.com/assange-its-over-hillary-october-surprise-biggest-leak-to-date/

Most here on the forum must ignore everything on Hillary because the mainstream media tells them so. I wonder if the mainstream media told you it is safe to jump off a hundred foot cliff you might consider it. Mordko you are the only one who I would not put in this because you actually seem to make up your own mind whether I agree with it or not.


----------



## humble_pie

can somebody please set up a new cmf poll

how many cmffers have tongue holes
of these, how many cmffers are actually mating


----------



## james4beach

This would make an even better Jerry Springer episode. Trump brings his daughter as his sexy date, receives a rose bouquet from the Grand Wizard of the KKK, and then Hilary grows a forked tongue and devil horns come out of her head.

(Everything except the forked tongue is actually real... Trump has indicated that he'd date his daughter if he could, and the former Grand Wizard of the KKK has endorsed him and his values)

The Trump & KKK link is interesting because it shows how well aligned Trump is with white supremacists.



> Editor's note: NPR spoke with former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, who supports Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, because Duke represents the way in which white supremacists attach themselves to Trump's campaign.
> ...
> [David Duke] reiterated his own support for Trump, saying he's "100 percent behind" the Republican presidential candidate's agenda.
> ...
> *Duke says that Trump's attacks on Muslims and illegal immigration have brought his own beliefs into the mainstream.*
> ...
> "We've already polled inside the Trump voters, and we know that we're going to carry 75 to 80 percent of those who are going to vote for Trump," he said.
> 
> Steve asked, "You think Trump voters are your voters?"
> 
> "Well, of course they are!" Duke said. "Because I represent the ideas of preserving this country and the heritage of this country, and I think Trump represents that as well."


----------



## sags

Today's crisis...........

Trump makes a bad joke about second amendment people doing something.........

Clinton gives a speech in Kissimmee, Florida and the father of the shooter in the gay bar in Orlando is sitting right behind her.

Of the two........I wonder why it has become so popular to have a crowd of people behind you.

During one of the conventions, I can't remember which one, there was a news panel who were trying to talk above the noise from the convention floor, while a crowd stood behind them. One guy kept making faces, waving and smiling like an idiot.

With all that was going on, it was very difficult to focus on what the panel was actually saying.

For politicians why not have a banner carted around everywhere and set it up directly behind the speaker.

The banner could be the consistent message of the campaign.

It seems so basic............


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> can somebody please set up a new cmf poll
> 
> how many cmffers have tongue holes
> of these, how many cmffers are actually mating


My wife and I made a deal we would only smoke after sex. I have had the same pack for 6 months, but my wife is up to 3 packs a day.

My wife likes to talk while she is having sex. Sometimes she calls me from the hotel :eek2:


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> can somebody please set up a new cmf poll
> 
> how many cmffers have tongue holes
> of these, how many cmffers are actually mating


I had mine surgically enhanced. Expensive, but a Xgrrhlian has to do what a Xgrrhlian has to do.


----------



## humble_pie

^^


all the gals thought so
olivaw is so dashing

.


----------



## new dog

Well if any of us do want a tongue hole I have provided the link here.

https://tatring.com/piercing-types/Tongue-Piercing-Everything-You-Need-to-Know

For me I don't think I would do it because how does one eat with a tongue piercing. Maybe someone here has done it and can share their experience.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

There was a gag Art Buchwald used to pull during the Reagan administration when he made a speech to a Republican gathering. He would start by asking how many had voted for Reagan? Show of hands. All the hands would go up. Then he would ask how many would want him for CEO of their companies and all the hands would go down lol.

Let me ask you, would you rather work for Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump? Given that choice I would open a lemonade stand or go on welfare before I subjected myself to either of them.

Meanwhile a President is way more powerful than a boss or CEO of a company. He or she has control not only of your money but your very life and the lives of millions around the world.

Look at it that way and I don't know how any sane person can support either of them.


----------



## mordko

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Has anyone else noticed when there is some scandal connected to Hillary Clinton it is about something she did that has serious repercussions? While when there is some scandal connected to Trump it is about something said by somebody who used to work for him 10 years ago, or something his father did 20 years before he was born, or his wife's speech writer's sources, or somebody he hasn't spoken to in 10 years, or a contractor who did some work for him 20 years ago, or a misinterpretation of a joke he made in an off the cuff speech?
> 
> I don't think we have had the opinion of his ex wife's manicurist's mother in law attributed to him but I am sure that is coming.


Donald Trump scandals are not at all about what somebody said. He has a child rape case against him. The "university" he ran was a scam. His wife broke immigration laws. He has aligned himself with Putin and called on Russia to interfere into US elections and steal information. He is undermining NATO. This isn't at all about his manicurist's mother.


----------



## olivaw

There is an Interesting discussion in NY Times about media objectivity in this presidential election. What is the objective media supposed to do when one of the presidential candidates is as dangerous as Trump? 

*Trump Is Testing the Norms of Objectivity in Journalism*



> If you’re a working journalist and you believe that Donald J. Trump is a demagogue playing to the nation’s worst racist and nationalistic tendencies, that he cozies up to anti-American dictators and that he would be dangerous with control of the United States nuclear codes, how the heck are you supposed to cover him?





> It may not always seem fair to Mr. Trump or his supporters. But journalism shouldn’t measure itself against any one campaign’s definition of fairness. It is journalism’s job to be true to the readers and viewers, and true to the facts, in a way that will stand up to history’s judgment. To do anything less would be untenable.


----------



## olivaw

What is an objective reporter supposed to do when the facts demonstrate that one candidate is uniquely unfit for the job? 

It's a dilemma faced by former Republican congressman-turned-host Joe Scarborough when he learned the Trump became unstable when angered. 



> Mr. Scarborough, a frequent critic of liberal media bias, said he was concerned that Mr. Trump was becoming increasingly erratic, and asked rhetorically, “How balanced do you have to be when one side is just irrational?”
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/b...oudly-provocative-presidential-candidate.html


----------



## mordko

The child rape case is ongoing. Does not get more serious than this. Maybe he is not guilty, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was. It was disgusting when he went on and on about wanting to marry his daughter. 

You accept he is a liar and a scoundrel (e.g. University). Seems like action to me.

Melania clearly broke immigration laws. Yes it was before she married Trump. If he genuinely wants to start kicking out illegals, he should start at home. And by the way, he also hired illegals and was successfully prosecuted for that. Can it possibly get more hypocritical?

Nobody said Trump was a communist. Neither is the Russian government. He has expressed support for Russian spying. He has also supported Russian invasion of Ukraine. And he undermined NATO.


----------



## sags

More email problems for Hillary.

It has become obvious the Clintons used whatever means at their disposal to funnel money into the Clinton Foundation.

Billionaires don't give their money away. Some of the reciprocal favors are discussed in the emails..........jobs, influence etc.

Neither US Presidential candidate is fit to serve in one way or another.

Trump is nuts and Clinton is a crook.

Nuts or crook..............that is the choice voters have.

Maybe they can petition Obama to stay on for another term, although Michelle sounds like she has had enough of that life.


----------



## mordko

Johnson, Libertarian candidate might be OK, but it's gonna be Hillary unless she drops dead.


----------



## olivaw

It's the quiet time between the conventions and the debates. Expect dozens of manufactured scandals and conspiracy stories over the next few weeks. Today's scandal involves alleged ties between the Clinton Foundation and the State Department. 

The Clinton Foundation is a non-profit charitable organization that works principally through partnerships with l individuals, organizations, corporations, and governments. It's stated mission is to _ "strengthen the capacity of people throughout the world to meet the challenges of global interdependence."_ 

Focus is
- improving global health and wellness, 
- increasing opportunity for women and girls, 
- reducing childhood obesity and preventable diseases, 
- creating economic opportunity and growth, and helping communities address the effects of climate change. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Foundation


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> It's the quiet time between the conventions and the debates. Expect dozens of manufactured scandals and conspiracy stories over the next few weeks. Today's scandal involves alleged ties between the Clinton Foundation and the State Department.
> 
> The Clinton Foundation is a non-profit charitable organization that works principally through partnerships with l individuals, organizations, corporations, and governments. It's stated mission is to _ "strengthen the capacity of people throughout the world to meet the challenges of global interdependence."_
> 
> Focus is
> - improving global health and wellness,
> - increasing opportunity for women and girls,
> - reducing childhood obesity and preventable diseases,
> - creating economic opportunity and growth, and helping communities address the effects of climate change.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Foundation


Do you really believe that? :stupid:


----------



## new dog

Don't forget provide a solid foreign policy and return the troops home from all the wars just like Obama said he would do, will not sign the TPP. Also will create better race relations and help the minorities just like Obama did. Lastly bring in refugees by the boatloads to warm the hearts of all Liberals.

All negative information even if proven 100 percent true, is still a conspiracy theory.


----------



## sags

Hillary will be a good President.

If she stuffs a little bit of cash into her pocket along the way.......meh, it is chump change in the big picture.

Like the crooks say, you can't trust an honest person. Anyone who doesn't look out for themselves, doesn't know how to look out for others.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Listen to this talk by Bob Beckel. All threats are allowed as long as it is to protect Hillary. If this stuff came out on Trump they would applaud Assange and then continue to attack Trump.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d36xEvVnF2I
> 
> Even though you hear it with your own ears it is fine because we follow Hillary with blind faith like a cult.


That's a Fox News broadcast from 2010. Do you think it will affect the outcome of the 2012 presidential election? :rugby:


----------



## olivaw

Disgraced former Congressman Mark Foley was sitting behind Trump at the exact moment that he mocked Clinton for not vetting the people who sat behind her earlier in the week. Mark Foley resigned in 2006 amid allegations that he had sent sexual emails and messages to teenage boys who had worked or were working as Congressional pages.






Makes you feel like humming Alanis Morrisette, doesn't it?


----------



## sags

Not just Foley........watch some of the goofball antics among the crowd while Trump is speaking.

As I said before, the campaigns would be much better served with nobody sitting behind them. 

Just put up background with the campaign slogan, and forget all the vetting nonsense and distraction.

But what do I know.........I am way off in the cheap seats............


----------



## sags

I was thinking today that Americans are too entrenched in their political parties.

It becomes part of their self identity almost.

In Canada in the last few elections one of the parties was way ahead in the polls, came out with stupid policy and poof........voters were gone.

Tim Hudak had big leads twice and blew them both....."laying off 100,000 public service workers"..........great election idea Tim.

Prentice had a lead in Alberta but got cocky and made some dumb policy announcements.

Stephen Harper wasn't looking nearly as bad as the end results showed, but policy again affected the outcome.

In the US, Republicans can't stand Trump, disavow much of what he says, but will vote for him because he is the Republican nominee.

That is putting party ahead of principle and party ahead of the country.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> That's a Fox News broadcast from 2010. Do you think it will affect the outcome of the 2012 presidential election? :rugby:


Your right olivaw I must be living in a time warp or something. I also had a few so maybe that was it.


----------



## kcowan

Joe Scarboro is one of the reasons I subscribe to MSNBC. He is a moderate right of center conservative, who is disgusted with the Tea Party and Trump.

But Trump is a believer that there is no such thing as bad publicity. And he seems to be proving that over and over again.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Your right olivaw I must be living in a time warp or something. I also had a few so maybe that was it.


It's all meant in fun dogcom It's not uncommon to mistakenly connect to an old link - I have done it too. My post was intended as good-natured teasing. Feel free to tease me back.


----------



## olivaw

In today's episode of *Politics American Style*

- Trump is using the president's full name (Barack Hussein Obama). He said that the president *created ISIS*, leaving reporters to ask a single follow up question: "WTF?"

- There's still fallout from the Clinton emails. A State Department employee who was a long time Clinton ally and former head of the Clinton Foundation *travelled to New York* at her own expense to interview candidates for her old job. Republicans call it a conflict of interest. Democrats call it volunteering. 

- Trump and RNC Chief Reince Priebus are *having a spat*. 

- There is a *new letter* about Donald Trump from leading Republicans It's not kind. 


> "We believe that Donald Trump’s divisiveness, recklessness, incompetence, and record-breaking unpopularity risk turning this election into a Democratic landslide, and only the immediate shift of all available RNC resources to vulnerable Senate and House races will prevent the GOP from drowning with a Trump-emblazoned anchor around its neck,"


----------



## new dog

Thanks I knew you were joking Oliivaw and it was a well deserved joke.

On Obama the west did create ISIS and Obama knew about it, but I don't think he directly created ISIS.

Leading Republicans don't want Trump and will do anything to get him out. They also don't help much in going after Hillary who is full of holes and in fact kind of support her because she is the wall street candidate. Jeb Bush of course who would probably be the worst president ever and would love to see as much war as the US could possibly achieve is their pick. So I wouldn't put much stock into what they think except for the fact Trump does run his mouth a lot.


----------



## new dog

Here is a better one on the media saying that they can't help Hillary anymore then they have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc5p5mD08D4


----------



## sags

Yesterday Hillary Clinton admitted that Americans were sold a basket of empty promises in bad free trade deals.

I believe it is the first time that a highest profile politician, who wasn't considered a socialist or kook, has said free trade was a failure.

I have heard interviews with Bill Clinton where he mused that those in favor of free trade including himself were overly optimistic, and it didn't deliver the benefits anticipated. It was long after he was the President though.


----------



## sags

In Canada...........Tim Hudak is resigning as an MPP and taking the head job at the Ontario Real Estate Association, Stephen Harper is still collecting $170,000 a year pay as MP even though he has formed his own consulting company and has a job in Conservative fundraising, and good old Mike Duffy is submitting expense receipts for living in Ottawa again.

Nothing ever changes. They don't even try to hide their connections and graft anymore.


----------



## new dog

It would be great if Hillary actually shoved away her corporate backers and didn't sign the TPP if she became president. She would actually be doing what her voters, voted her in to do. This would be to much to ask though, I can't see her doing it.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"We believe that Donald Trump’s divisiveness, recklessness, incompetence, and record-breaking unpopularity risk turning this election into a Democratic landslide, and only the immediate shift of all available RNC resources to vulnerable Senate and House races will prevent the GOP from drowning with a Trump-emblazoned anchor around its neck," 

Still more popular than the top sixteen mainstream Republican pols.

Meanwhile Hillary had to cheat to beat a 74 year old Socialist.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> In Canada...........Tim Hudak is resigning as an MPP and taking the head job at the Ontario Real Estate Association, Stephen Harper is still collecting $170,000 a year pay as MP even though he has formed his own consulting company and has a job in Conservative fundraising, and good old Mike Duffy is submitting expense receipts for living in Ottawa again.
> 
> Nothing ever changes. They don't even try to hide their connections and graft anymore.


Don't worry, media rumor has it that Harper will step down this fall. By the way, he's hardly the only PM to have stayed on as MP.

I'm still hopeful that Trump will have his "nice long vacation" sooner rather than later.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Meanwhile Hillary had to cheat to beat a 74 year old Socialist.


Don't think so. Clinton won in delegates and super delegates separately. Not even Bernie would say that she cheated. 

Trump will say it, but that guy will say anything. He spent two days insisting that Obama founded ISIS only to tweet that it was all just sarcasm.


----------



## sags

_Still more popular than the top sixteen mainstream Republican pols._

I don't know if that says more about the candidates or the voters..........


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Don't think so. Clinton won in delegates and super delegates separately. Not even Bernie would say that she cheated.


The Democrats have their own definition of cheating...if they do it, it's not cheating.

Bernie will say whatever the party wants him to say...that's why he willingly turned his back on all his supporters who cried foul the Democrats tried to rig the game.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> Don't think so. Clinton won in delegates and super delegates separately. Not even Bernie would say that she cheated.
> 
> Trump will say it, but that guy will say anything. He spent two days insisting that Obama founded ISIS only to tweet that it was all just sarcasm.


Don't listen to me, listen to Bernie Sanders and his supporters

http://dailycaller.com/2016/05/17/s...out-democrats-for-cheating-him-out-of-nevada/


----------



## sags

Well roll me up and smoke me when I die............and here I thought Clinton won because she had a lot more delegates than Sanders.

Not since the Age of the Hanging Shad have I witnessed such callous disregard for ethical politics.

But then, when they use words like "campaign operatives" one could expect some mischief behind the curtain.

Politics is as they say.........a blood sport and there is no prize for coming second.

Sanders has been around long enough to know that.


----------



## mrPPincer

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Don't listen to me, listen to Bernie Sanders and his supporters
> 
> http://dailycaller.com/2016/05/17/s...out-democrats-for-cheating-him-out-of-nevada/


Yeah, well, check the time stamp on that.. May 17/2016.. ancient history.

Bernie has already endorsed Hilary since then. Crawling the archives of the internet will not change that.


----------



## olivaw

It's not always ancient history with Trump. Today he declared that Clinton stole Pennsylvania on November 8, 2016. He's prescient. 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/12/politics/donald-trump-pennsylvania-cheating/index.html


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> It's not always ancient history with Trump. Today he declared that Clinton stole Pennsylvania on November 8, 2016. He's prescient.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/12/politics/donald-trump-pennsylvania-cheating/index.html


We already know that you only hear what you want to hear. There's no need to confirm it repeatedly... :biggrin:


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> In Canada...........Tim Hudak is resigning as an MPP and taking the head job at the Ontario Real Estate Association, Stephen Harper is still collecting $170,000 a year pay as MP even though he has formed his own consulting company and has a job in Conservative fundraising, and good old Mike Duffy is submitting expense receipts for living in Ottawa again.
> 
> Nothing ever changes. They don't even try to hide their connections and graft anymore.


I am sorry, have I missed the rule that states that elected MPs are not permitted to serve in the Parliament?

And the Canadian Senate is just as elected and a lot cheaper/less corrupt than the European Commission. A few here seem to believe that the Commission has democratic legitimacy.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> We already know that you only hear what you want to hear. There's no need to confirm it repeatedly... :biggrin:


Where's your sense of humour? Do you think *this sh*t’s not funny*?



> As if that weren’t enough, Republican strategist Matt Mackowiak on Thursday posted an epic tweetstorm describing the abject panic that has set in among Republicans, who now fear that they’ll suffer massive down-ballot losses if Trump stays on his current course.
> 
> “OK, this ****’s not funny anymore,” he began. “Trump is threatening elected GOPers at all levels in places that haven’t been competitive in decades… We are looking at an extinction-level event.”


----------



## Nelley

*Hillary Clinton Parkinsons Disease*

Looks like Hillary is suffering from Parkinsons Disease (the same disease that killed Muhammad Ali)-it appears to be progressing very swiftly-could be very interesting.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> Looks like Hillary is suffering from Parkinsons Disease (the same disease that killed Muhammad Ali)-it appears to be progressing very swiftly-could be very interesting.


Anyone who looks at her closely (you don't even have to look that close) can see she has some medical issues. Someone here already tried to spin it that it didn't matter about her health because she made a good VP choice :stupid:

The people have a right to know if a candidate is healthy enough to serve out the term. She makes very few public appearances, and when she does, they are very short and carefully controlled because she is so easily tired. Slick Bill even stated that it took 6 very hard months for her to recover from her concussion...which resulted from one of her many falls. Some neurologists have stated that she still exhibits post-concussion symptoms. She needs help climbing a simple set of stairs...and those are recent pics.

What is she hiding?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Looks like Hillary is suffering from Parkinsons Disease (the same disease that killed Muhammad Ali)-it appears to be progressing very swiftly-could be very interesting.


As far as Clinton conspiracies theories go, this one is hardly compelling. The same right-wing sites that try to paint Clinton as a frail invalid also claim that she masterminded the murder of Seth Rich. Perhaps these hoaxes are little more than speculation by desperate souls hoping *for a deus ex machina to save them from a Clinton presidency*. 

Others speculate that it may be Trump's *"I know you are, but what am I?"* response to concerns about his *erratic behaviour*.


----------



## bass player

^^

olivaw: Not everything is a right wing conspiracy. But, it sure makes it convenient for some to ignore inconvenient facts when all they have to do is immediately dismiss them as just another "conspiracy".


----------



## Nelley

*Conspiracy Slur*

Most people are realizing that the slur/insult "Conspiracy Theory" is a clear sign that the user of the slur has no logical arguments or rebuttals to present.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Most people are realizing that the slur/insult "Conspiracy Theory" is a clear sign that the user of the slur has no logical arguments or rebuttals to present.


OK Bass - err Nelley. Is the word "hoax" less offensive? Check snopes.com for the rebuttal you seek.

I heard recently that Trump died of a violent heart attack. Care to rebut?


----------



## Nelley

Just because Snopes is your authority figure it doesn't make it reliable or comprehensive to persons who can think logically.


----------



## heyjude

olivaw said:


> I heard recently that Trump died of a violent heart attack.


That's impossible. He doesn't have a heart.


----------



## olivaw

^thanks Heyjude. I thought he had no brain.


----------



## Nelley

Any guesses on the top 5 excuses Hillary will use to opt out of debating Trump? Maybe:

1. He is racist
2. He is sexist
3. My advisors say I don't have to
4. I won't lower myself
5. Why does it matter?


----------



## bass player

Yes, it's likely she will back out with one excuse or another. What Hillary and her handlers fear the most is her left in front of a camera for an hour or 2 with no aide to whisk her aside after a couple of softball questions from friendly "journalists", no one to catch her from falling, and no hand picked crowd that cheers on command. If she need an "extended" bathroom break or has another one of those mini seizures she tries to hide with head shaking, there will be nowhere to hide.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Anyone who looks at her closely (you don't even have to look that close) can see she has some medical issues. Someone here already tried to spin it that it didn't matter about her health because she made a good VP choice :stupid:
> 
> The people have a right to know if a candidate is healthy enough to serve out the term. She makes very few public appearances, and when she does, they are very short and carefully controlled because she is so easily tired. Slick Bill even stated that it took 6 very hard months for her to recover from her concussion...which resulted from one of her many falls. Some neurologists have stated that she still exhibits post-concussion symptoms. She needs help climbing a simple set of stairs...and those are recent pics.
> 
> What is she hiding?


Did you see the video I posted that seems to prove she can handle stairs unassisted?

Seems you are suffering from confirmation bias.

But ultimately, I'm not convinced this is a huge deciding factor in this election. America has had physically infirm Presidents in the past, most notably Roosevelt. The reason why it doesn't matter so much this time around is that the only alternative is a crazy person, who is so temperamentally ill-suited to be president that many Republicans are going to vote for a Democratic candidate.


----------



## bass player

The fact that Hillary supports keep saying that it's okay that she may be ill is telling....they know that the signs of her failing health are obvious and they are now desperate to spin it as "unimportant".

So...it doesn't matter that she's ill.
It doesn't matter that she lied.
It doesn't matter that she is corrupt.
It doesn't matter that she is a security risk.
Etc., etc., etc...


----------



## Nelley

All that matters is that Hillary will definitely do as instructed, and a very feeble and sick woman is actually ideal for what they need in that position.


----------



## andrewf

Trump has also lied, Trump has a history of underhanded dealings, Trump is a grave national security risk (in that he wants to play a game of chicken with Russia over Nato allies).

Trump simply can't be president. The Republicans managed to make one of the most disliked Democratic candidates in recent history and set her up for a landslide victory, simply by picking an even less electable candidate. I'm not a Hillary supporter (I'm not American), I just recognize that Trump would be a catastrophic president. Even a sick, deceptive, corrupt Hillary would be safer than Donald Trump on a good day.


----------



## Nelley

Yesterday the MSM spin was Trump was buddies with Putin-now the spin is he is risking doomsday against Russia-not even a since ounce of logic is ever used.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> All that matters is that Hillary will definitely do as instructed, and a very feeble and sick woman is actually ideal for what they need in that position.


Weekend At Bernie's... :biggrin:


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Trump has also lied, Trump has a history of underhanded dealings, Trump is a grave national security risk (in that he wants to play a game of chicken with Russia over Nato allies).


Sorry Andrew. None of Trumps fibs come close to Hillary's massive lies. None of his shady deals match Hillary's deals with foreign interests who make massive "donations" to The Clinton Foundation. Nothing Trump has done regarding security matches Hillary's security breaches and damage to national security.

You're 0 for 3.


----------



## andrewf

What about Trumps ties to Russian oligarchs? 

Trump hasn't held elected office, so no wonder he has no clue about national security. He knows better than the generals!

Trump is a child. He should stick to reality TV and renting out his name.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Yesterday the MSM spin was Trump was buddies with Putin-now the spin is he is risking doomsday against Russia-not even a since ounce of logic is ever used.


They are not mutually exclusive. Putin supports Trump openly. Trump's campaign manager received millions of dollars from a Putin crony that was part of the former Russian-backed Ukrainian government. Trump's daughter vacations with Putin's girlfriend. Trump makes noises about letting Putin invade NATO allies and he may or may not honour US treaty obligations depending on his mood. Of course if it comes down to it, the US would defend NATO allies (and Trump would be bounced from office for such a catastrophic mismanagement of US strategic relationships). I imagine the CIA and the Pentagon would be fighting each other to make sure Donald slips in the tub or chokes on a pretzel if it came to that. Mike Pence could at least be a reasonable facsimile of a president.


----------



## olivaw

*Hillary Clinton's health is fine*. She'll trounce Trump in the debates and in the election. Thats assuming that Trump doesn't *drop out of the race*. 

Fivethirtyeight gives Hillary Clinton an *88.8% chance of victory*. Trump is down to 11.1%. This may be the biggest blowout in modern history.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> What about Trumps ties to Russian oligarchs?.


Why don't we talk about Clinton, Russia, uranium, and money...??


----------



## Nelley

Great solidarity among NATO "allies"-Turkey claims the US was behind the attempted coup-the big global money that owns Hillary is itching for a conflict with Russia and Trump would rather protect the citizens of the USA from radical Islam-the darling of the Hillary supporters.


----------



## new dog

Everything we say about Trump does seem to go for Hillary as well bass except the running of the mouth thing.

Nelley even though many would say conspiracy theory it is true that Turkey was warming up to Russia. We all know that if you warm to Russia or start talking about using a currency outside of the US dollar bad things seem to come your way. Russia and China are doing things outside the dollar so I am sure Obamas masters are pushing for a fight. Hillary has the same people above her in charge so she will support the same policy.


----------



## Nelley

Julian Assange says his next release of Hillary Clinton emails will be devastating-and that guy does not B/S at all. Should be very amusing to watch the MSM and Hillary supporters twist themselves in knots explaining why "it doesn't matter" or it is somehow all the fault of Trump or Conspiracy People.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelly, no offence intended, but do you have to use the phrase "Hillary Supporters" in every single post that you make on this forum?
You do realise that this is the *Canadian* Money Forum don't you?

ie the majority of us can't vote down there, so we can't be Hillary supporters.


----------



## Nelley

I said Hillary Supporters-not Hillary Voters. The reality is that any objective observer accepts that Hillary Clinton is the most corrupt individual to ever get this close to the oval office job-if someone feels an obligation to deny that reality I would term that person a supporter, much like OJ Simpson had his supporters back in the day. Look-IMO it is quite possible that Clinton is the safer choice for most of us Canadians here on this blog-just because she will do as she is told-hold the whole Ponzi together by hook or by crook-trying to fix the overall economy at this point is like taking an alcoholic off booze-it could be unpredictable-so I can understand someone saying I hope she wins because I think it is better for me financially-but if you feel the need to pretend she is someone totally different than who she is you are a Hillary Supporter.


----------



## mrPPincer

ok, fair enough, but she did say she was against TPP, so we'll see about that part, if the polls are right.


----------



## sags

Even if everything about Hillary Clinton is true, she is still the only choice available.

The Clinton/Trump strategy was brilliant. They played the Republicans like a fine old fiddle.

The only thing left is for Trump to resign, so that he avoids the Trump name listed as the Republican loser in the history books.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Even if everything about Hillary Clinton is true, she is still the only choice available.


She is the worst choice available. Trump will get away with nothing because half the Republicans, all the Democrats, and almost all of the media hate him. He can't just issue an executive order like Obama did and have it ignored, even if it's illegal.

On the other hand, Hillary has proven to be corrupt, a liar, and her health is suspect. In addition, she has the full support of the Democrats and the full support of the media who have proven to lie by omission or outright lie for her. If she's elected, the corruption will not only continue, it will increase. She'll gut the 2nd amendment while the anti-gun people cheer, but that's just a start...the useful idiots who support her will soon see their rights taken away, because without fail, individual rights ALWAYS suffer when the Dems are in power.


----------



## mrPPincer

> because without fail, individual rights ALWAYS suffer when the Dems are in power.


omg are you insane? are you forgetting the patriot act??
Happened under G dubya B incase you forgot (republican).


----------



## sags

Clinton could get arrested and still win while out on bail. If she goes to prison, VP Tim Kaine would be President.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> omg are you insane? are you forgetting the patriot act??
> Happened under G dubya B incase you forgot (republican).


That one instance doesn't make my point invalid. Individual freedom always suffers under a Democrat government. If you can't see that, then perhaps you are the insane one?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Clinton could get arrested and still win while out on bail. If she goes to prison, VP Tim Kaine would be President.


Hillary may be the only candidate in presidential history that wouldn't pass a simple background check.


----------



## Nelley

Maybe the Soros plan all along was Tim Kaine as president-it is beautiful-an unknown (who could never have been elected President) taking over to follow orders after the sick crook can't function.


----------



## Nelley

Imagine someone applying for a job at McDonalds-and saying in the interview-by the way I am currently under criminal investigation by the FBI-you ain't getting that fry cook job-too risky.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Hillary may be the only candidate in presidential history that wouldn't pass a simple background check.


LOL............good one.

Clinton doesn't have a criminal record yet though. Just a lot of suspicion and reasons for the police to be poking around a lot.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> That one instance doesn't make my point invalid. Individual freedom always suffers under a Democrat government. If you can't see that, then perhaps you are the insane one?


A quantam leap forward into George Orwelle's 1984 in one step, supported by both sides, under g dubya b, sorry, but that one takes the cake.

What do the democrats want to take or are you talking gun control, because that's totally out of hand down there imho.


----------



## Nelley

Actually if you take out the most dangerous ghettos of Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, New Orleans, etc.etc.etc. out of the stats the USA has extremely little gun violence even in huge areas of the country with overwhelming gun ownership.


----------



## olivaw

Donald Trump says: _"I am who I am. It's me. I don't want to change"_

The Clinton campaign team reacts:


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> That one instance doesn't make my point invalid. Individual freedom always suffers under a Democrat government. If you can't see that, then perhaps you are the insane one?


How did it suffer under Obama and Bill Clinton?

Americans are suffering under the yoke of medical insurance (like every other developed country in the world)?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Actually if you take out the most dangerous ghettos of Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, New Orleans, etc.etc.etc. out of the stats the USA has extremely little gun violence even in huge areas of the country with overwhelming gun ownership.


If you exclude all the murderers in Canada, Canada has surprisingly few murderers.


----------



## Nelley

Using your logic, the US should restrict gun ownership in those high crime areas and allow it everywhere else-I guess you forgot they already do that-the gun crime is the highest where the gun ownership is most restricted-try to play chess sometimes not always checkers.


----------



## andrewf

Trump is actively trying to lose the election. He is in such a deep hole in popular support, I would not be surprised to see him drop out prior to the election.


----------



## new dog

The best thing to happen is for Hillary to lose of course. The second best thing is for Trump to make a deal that the TTP does not get signed and that immagration is under tight control heavily screening Muslims and making sure everything is legal as a step down deal.


----------



## sags

Trump won the nomination, because all the other candidates stuck to the most recent conservative narrative and were rejected by Republican voters. Cut taxes on the wealthy and corporations, cut social programs, eliminate regulation........blah, blah, blah.

If they don't change the narrative, conservatives are going to be locked out of power in the future.

I agree with a conservative radio host I listened to yesterday, who said conservatives have done it to themselves by allowing the radical fringes to take over the Republican Party. If they don't change, the only choices for voters will be left wing and far left wing politics.


----------



## Nelley

The conservative/liberal thing is outdated. Trump is really the first independent candidate to get this far (surpassing Ross Perot-who by the way was proven right on most things)-both the Republican and Democratic parties are following a big global money, big government (through borrowing) policy. Hillary Clinton is nothing but Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio in a pantsuit. As long as Trump loses, Goldman Sachs or George Soros are quite happy with any "mainstream" Repub or Dem.


----------



## SMK

Nelley said:


> Julian Assange says his next release of Hillary Clinton emails will be devastating-and that guy does not B/S at all. Should be very amusing to watch the MSM and Hillary supporters twist themselves in knots explaining why "it doesn't matter" or it is somehow all the fault of Trump or Conspiracy People.


It's very much what I'm afraid of, that his initial leaks were mere teasers. 
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/dnc-information-come-says-wikileaks-founder/


----------



## olivaw

Trump *confirmed his strategy * today. He's hoping to put an end to his *27 day spiral*.


----------



## sags

Get out of the china shop.............the bull is running free.


----------



## SMK

And again it will most likely be "two for the price of one." The Clintons never get tired. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ary-clinton-has-been-on-time-magazines-cover/


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Trump is actively trying to lose the election. He is in such a deep hole in popular support, I would not be surprised to see him drop out prior to the election.


That is a good point. It would be very much like him.


----------



## Nelley

Trump drops out-and Crooked Hillary is led away in handcuffs the next week-could be quite the spectacle.


----------



## sags

We have a couple of spare leaders around. Perhaps we could loan them one.


----------



## Nelley

Sure-lets do a trade-Trump for Wynne.


----------



## olivaw

*To Whom My Concern*

The Trump hoax about Hillary Clinton's health *backfired*. The authenticity of his *published health record* is ....... questionable. 


> Unlike the Clinton letter, it does not contain a full medical history for Trump. The letter also has problems with sentence structure and major typographical errors, such as the opening line, “To Whom My Concern.” Most amusing, it says that his medical examination of Trump has “only positive results.” In medical terms, if the test is positive, it confirms the existence of disease. Is this doctor saying Trump has every medical ailment that could be found in examination? Does he not know the meaning of the word? Or, as I suspect, was the letter written by someone in the Trump campaign?
> 
> Anyone reading the letter can make a good guess about who that person might be. It says results were “extraordinarily excellent.” (Not a medical term.) It says, “His physical strength and stamina are extraordinary.” (Again, not a medical term.) Then, in the most hilarious, Trump-esque line of all, it says, “If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the healthiest person ever elected to the presidency.” In other words, this letter purports to show that a doctor has assessed the health of 43 people he has never examined, including the four who are still alive.


----------



## Nelley

Even Hillary voters and supporters accept that this is a sickly human-I would stop beating this dead horse. Trump definitely has a ton of energy but none of the candidates are teenagers.


----------



## gibor365

Republican convention vs Democratic one.... Why Hillary supporters are so rude, and Trump's so polite?! :biggrin:


----------



## olivaw

gibor365 said:


> Republican convention vs Democratic one.... Why Hillary supporters are so rude, and Trump's so polite?! :biggrin:


Those were Bernie supporters. 

Are Trump supporters trying to destroy a small Canadian business with [URL="http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/trump-supporters-flood-canada-s-trump-sandwich-artist-with-bad-reviews-1.3726274"]*fake product reviews*[/URL]? 



> Most of the comments are too offensive to publish here. Some of them attack the LGBTQ community while others make light of the Holocaust.


:eek2:


----------



## Nelley

Rather ironic in that your Islam trip is against both gays and jews.


----------



## sags

olivaw said:


> The Trump hoax about Hillary Clinton's health *backfired*. The authenticity of his *published health record* is ....... questionable.


I would like to get an assessment on Donald Trump's "frontal lobes" from Dr. Ben Carson....

If the letter is authentic, it appears that Trump has a cholesterol problem.......aspirin and statins. 

Maybe from all the Kentucky Fried Chicken, like he sent errand boy Chris Christie to fetch ?


----------



## Nelley

I am confident SAGS is a lot smarter than Donald Trump. LOL.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> I would like to get an assessment on Donald Trump's "frontal lobes" from Dr. Ben Carson....
> 
> If the letter is authentic, it appears that Trump has a cholesterol problem.......aspirin and statins.
> 
> Maybe from all the Kentucky Fried Chicken, like he sent errand boy Chris Christie to fetch ?


As a public service, NYC Parks allowed members of the voting public to personally assess *Mr. Trump's medical fitness*. (NSFW and once you see it you can't unsee it). :cower:


----------



## Nelley

We get it-you are not sexually attracted to Donald Trump-therefore he should not be President of the USA-or maybe you are sexually attracted but you want us to think you aren't-either way we are cool with it-it is 2016-there are 64 different genders in Ontario-just ask our fearless leader.


----------



## sags

Trump had no idea what he was getting himself into once the general election campaign commenced.

Every minute detail of his life is coming out. The primaries were a laugh fest for him compared to the media scrutiny now.

Bankruptcies, draft dodging, medical records, tax records, old girlfriends, Russian ties............

Hillary Clinton has been through it all for decades. 

"What is that unearthly sound", says Trump to Hillary Clinton. 

"It is the baying of the media hounds, Donald", smiles Hillary. "They are coming for you now".


----------



## Nelley

Interesting you should mention the corrupt, dying MSM-today TIME magazine has a story on the major problem facing the planet-INTERNET TROLLS.


----------



## new dog

I have seen on the idolized mainstream media that Obama did pay 400 million in ransom to Iran. I was thinking conspiracy theory but apparently not.


----------



## andrewf

^The $400 million was Iran's assets that were frozen as part of the sanctions against it. The nuclear deal involved a relaxation of sanctions and unfreezing of Iranian assets. You can't say that the US paid a ransom, as the US did not own that $400 million (that would have been theft).


----------



## Nelley

At this point the MSM is similar to the old PRAVDA-the lying is so transparent it is like they aren't really even trying anymore.


----------



## BoringInvestor

Nelley said:


> At this point the MSM is similar to the old PRAVDA-the lying is so transparent it is like they aren't really even trying anymore.


What are the 'buckets' do media fall into?

For example, one bucket would be 'Mainstream media'.
What other buckets are there that would encapsulate all media?


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> At this point the MSM is similar to the old PRAVDA-the lying is so transparent it is like they aren't really even trying anymore.


The media lies so often and with such regularity that it's become a joke. They no longer report news...they have become a propaganda machine for the left. And, sadly, it works because too many people blindly accept the lies as fact. I don't know how anyone can watch mainstream media and not get upset...and, I often wonder how much mental gymnastics some people have to do to fool themselves into believing all the BS.

Bush was tarred and feathered for not showing up when Katrina hit. Yet, Obama is off on yet another golf outing while Louisiana is under water and no one calls him on it.


----------



## kcowan

bass player said:


> Bush was tarred and feathered for not showing up when Katrina hit. Yet, Obama is off on yet another golf outing while Louisiana is under water and no one calls him on it.


It was Homeland Security that screwed the pooch on Katrina and Dubya saying "Great Job Brownie"! He was displaying ignorance or apathy.


----------



## bass player

kcowan said:


> It was Homeland Security that screwed the pooch on Katrina and Dubya saying "Great Job Brownie"! He was displaying ignorance or apathy.


Is it ignorance or apathy for Obama? Or both?


----------



## olivaw

Here is the Real Clear Politics RCP poll average.









and the RCP predicted electoral college map. 








Clinton:272
Trump:154


----------



## olivaw

Poor Donald, just can't catch a break. 

- He stays on message for two days, 
- apologizes for saying stupid things,
- pitches black voters,
- fires campaign manager,
- and buys TV ad time. 

His campaign kicks the brown Trump supporter out of his rally for looking suspicious.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> His campaign kicks the brown guy out of his rally for looking suspicious.


He looks more white than brown to me, but I'm not sure why you had to mention skin colour in the first place since he himself said that he was kicked out for matching the description of a trouble maker, and not for his colour??

This appears to be nothing but a weak attempt and pathetic on your behalf to falsely accuse Trump of being racist. Shame on you.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> He looks more white than brown to me, but I'm not sure why you had to mention skin colour in the first place since he himself said that he was kicked out for matching the description of a trouble maker, and not for his colour??
> 
> This appears to be nothing but a weak attempt and pathetic on your behalf to falsely accuse Trump of being racist. Shame on you.


*In his own words*. 


> "I do think it's because I'm brown," Anantha said, explaining why he believes he was kicked out. He added that he was "totally shocked."


The victim, a registered Republican, tweeted that he has switched his support from Trump to Johnson.


----------



## Nelley

I am still waiting for the day that a public figure who is not a white male is accused of being racist-according to the MSM and their brain dead followers, one cannot be female, Chinese, East Indian, Black, etc.etc.etc. and be racist-one of the requirements for the position is that you are a white male.


----------



## bass player

I stopped watching after he said he was kicked out for matching the description of a known agitator. Just because he later states that he believes he was kicked out due to his skin colour doesn't make it true.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> I am still waiting for the day that a public figure who is not a white male is accused of being racist-according to the MSM and their brain dead followers, one cannot be female, Chinese, East Indian, Black, etc.etc.etc. and be racist-one of the requirements for the position is that you are a white male.


BLM racist thugs can scream on camera that they want to kill white people and no one in MSM media will call them racist. In fact, when that is said, the media often deletes those comments before showing the footage.


----------



## Nelley

It has gotten so bad with the MSM that many of the stupid sheep are starting to wake up.


----------



## olivaw

Chill Bass. Trump has *Omarosa* directing his African American outreach program. You know it can only be good. 









African Americans are flocking to Trump already. He's up to *almost 2% support*.


----------



## bass player

Why don't you look up Hillary's "hot sauce" comment... :biggrin:


----------



## Nelley

98% of Blacks supporting Crooked Hillary? Seems somewhat racist-you shouldn't be promoting that hatred.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Why don't you look up Hillary's "hot sauce" comment... :biggrin:


The hot sauce pretend-scandal is four months old. Omarosa should get on it. :highly_amused:


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> The hot sauce pretend-scandal is four months old. Omarosa should get on it. :highly_amused:


Why Omarosa? Because she's black?


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Why Omarosa? Because she's black?


Because she is the director of Trumps African American outreach campaign.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> She is the director of Trumps African American outreach campaign.


In other words, you think that hot sauce is a "black thing"? And that's why Hillary pretends to like hot sauce when she's around black people?

Nope, that's not racist or stereotyping at all... :stupid:


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> In other words, you think that hot sauce is a "black thing"? And that's why Hillary pretends to like hot sauce when she's around black people?
> 
> Nope, that's not racist or stereotyping at all... :stupid:


Exactly. Why did Breitbart *make such a big deal of it*? Why did you bring it up after all this time? Why don't you have any new fake news? 

And why would Trump promote a failed reality TV star to *Director of African American Outreach*?


----------



## bass player

Obviously, you missed the sarcasm. What Hillary did was racist.

Do you agree or disagree? Please answer the question instead of changing the subject.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Obviously, you missed the sarcasm. What Hillary did was racist.
> 
> Do you agree or disagree? Please answer the question instead of changing the subject.


I disagree. As we've previously discussed, Clinton is an alien. The smell of hot sauce reminds her of her home planet Xgrrhl. 

We should talk about something that's not four months old now - something relevant like Donald Trump's *opaque financial obligations to undisclosed interests*. 



> Beyond finding that companies owned by Mr. Trump had debts of at least $650 million, The Times discovered that a substantial portion of his wealth is tied up in three passive partnerships that owe an additional $2 billion to a string of lenders, including those that hold the loan on the Avenue of the Americas building. If those loans were to go into default, Mr. Trump would not be held liable, the Trump Organization said. The value of his investments, however, would certainly sink.





> Tracing the ownership of many of Mr. Trump’s buildings can be a complicated task. Sometimes he owns a building and the land underneath it; sometimes, he holds a partial interest or just the commercial portion of a property.
> 
> And in some cases, the identities of his business partners are obscured behind limited liability companies — raising the prospect of a president with unknown business ties.


----------



## bass player

Let's talk about the Clinton Foundation...you know, the one being investigated by the FBI??

Oh right...it's just another right wing conspiracy!! :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## Nelley

I am setting up the Nelley Foundation-with my wonderful charity between 8 and 11 cents out of every dollar you give me goes to charity-80 to 92 cents goes right into my pocket-sorry but I don't have any taxpayer assets to give away in return like Crooked Hillary.


----------



## olivaw

Independent charity watchdog _Charity Watch_ gives the Clinton Foundation an *A rating*. It is *Top-Rated* for governance and transparency. 

The Donald J Trump Foundation is *not eligible for a rating*. It is as *opaque as his business*. Trump has *reportedly* tried to renege on publicly promised donations. _Charity Watch_ reviewed some of the veteran's charities that Trump claimed to support and many of them were rated *D or F*.

*Poor Donald*.


----------



## bass player

Nice cherry picking.

"The Clinton Foundation’s finances are so messy that the nation’s most influential charity watchdog put it on its “watch list” of problematic nonprofits last month.

The Clinton family’s mega-charity took in more than $140 million in grants and pledges in 2013 but spent just $9 million on direct aid.

The group spent the bulk of its windfall on administration, travel, and salaries and bonuses, with the fattest payouts going to family friends.:

http://nypost.com/2015/04/26/charity-watchdog-clinton-foundation-a-slush-fund/


----------



## new dog

Bass, Hillary is no racist, she doesn't give a damn about anybody. Also it is transparent that she gives first to her closest and then to charity. I give all of that an A rating. So if you were smart you would set up your own charity and give 10 percent to the poor or whatever and 90 percent to all the junk like administration and so on. Then publish it and get your own A rating.


----------



## Nelley

Boy "Charity Watch" sounds like some fierce watchdog-were they watching Bernie Madoff also?


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Nice cherry picking.


Indeed, your link was to a 16 month old Carly Fiorina campaign whopper. It was *debunked in June 2015*. Sheesh, get some new material. 

This *article* was published just 12 hours ago. 



> One example is an office building on Sixth Avenue in Manhattan, which is indebted by $950 million. The two major backers are the Bank of China and Goldman Sachs.





> Mr Trump’s limited partnerships, of which there are many, have debt of close to $2bn, according to public documents.
> 
> “I am the king of debt,” he once told CNN, and the federal filing system for candidates allows him to reign as such.


*Poor Donald*.


----------



## bass player

I keep forgetting that what Hillary does in the past doesn't matter...her supporters simply proclaim that the slate is wiped clean and 6 months later they pretend that it never happened, or that it's a conspiracy.


----------



## Nelley

The latest farce is that Crooked Hillary is saying that when she is President she will no longer take kickbacks and Bill won't either-and the MSM is trying to spin this as honour-jeez.


----------



## bass player

"Hillary Clinton’s top campaign aide, and the woman who might be the future White House chief of staff to the first female US president, for a decade edited a radical Muslim publication that opposed women’s rights and blamed the US for 9/11...:

Nothing to see...move along:

http://nypost.com/2016/08/21/huma-abedin-worked-at-a-radical-muslim-journal-for-10-years/


----------



## bass player

It has also been reported that Bernie Sanders recently spent MORE than his reported net worth on a 3rd home. Of course, the media had selective amnesia with this story, too.

I wonder what the low income earning socialists who donated to his campaign think?


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> The latest farce is that Crooked Hillary is saying that when she is President she will no longer take kickbacks and Bill won't either-and the MSM is trying to spin this as honour-jeez.


Well, they have to give Saudi Arabia and other countries a heads up to make their final "donations" to the Clinton Slush Fund...


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> I keep forgetting that what Hillary does in the past doesn't matter...her supporters simply proclaim that the slate is wiped clean and 6 months later they pretend that it never happened, or that it's a conspiracy.


Hillary Clinton's past is very prominent in this election.

Former First Lady of Arkansas, former First Lady of the US, Senator, Secretary of State...........are among her past accomplishments.

It is Donald Trump's resume that is lacking in substance and relevance.


----------



## sags

Trump has become a joke candidate. He should resign and let somone else take his place before it is too late.

The Republican Party is considering abandoning funding or support for the Trump campaign and would focus entirely on other races.

They did that before during Bob Dole's candidacy in 1996 when he ran against Bill Clinton and it was perceived he couldn't win.

Without party support and money, Trump might as well shuffle around Trump Towers in his housecoat until it's over.

_Turn out the lights, the party is over............_


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Hillary Clinton's past is very prominent in this election.
> 
> Former First Lady of Arkansas, former First Lady of the US, Senator, Secretary of State...........are among her credentials.
> 
> It is Donald Trump's resume that is lacking in substance and relevance.


You just proved my point, but it appears that you're unable to comprehend that you did. :hopelessness:


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> It has also been reported that Bernie Sanders recently spent MORE than his reported net worth on a 3rd home. Of course, the media had selective amnesia with this story, too.
> 
> I wonder what the low income earning socialists who donated to his campaign think?


Homes are dirt cheap in the US.

A beautiful home in Florida only costs $75,000......and comes with a tax deductible 30 year fixed rate mortgage at low interest rates.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal....280976,25.626668,-83.741913_rect/8_zm/0_mmm/


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Homes are dirt cheap in the US.
> 
> A beautiful home in Florida only costs $125,000......and comes with a tax deductible 30 year fixed rate mortgage at low interest rates.


That's true. However, he didn't buy a $125k home, so why are you telling us the price of something he didn't buy?


----------



## sags

I changed the price to $75,000. There was a nice one for sale for the lower price.

The actual price Sanders paid doesn't matter. The point is homes are cheap in the US and maybe Sanders intends to rent it out.

Being a socialist and all..........maybe he wants to provide low income housing for a nice family.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> I changed the price to $75,000. There was a nice one for sale for the lower price.
> 
> The actual price Sanders paid doesn't matter. The point is homes are cheap in the US and maybe Sanders intends to rent it out.
> 
> Being a socialist and all..........maybe he wants to provide low income housing for a nice family.


Why do you refuse to look up what he actually paid and instead give us meaningless numbers? Your weak attempt at deflection fools no one.

Here ya go: It really is his third house...it really is a vacation house...and it really is worth $600,000, which is more than his entire net worth. These are all signs of a true socialist... :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## sags

So Mrs. Sanders sold her family house, cashed in some retirement funds, and borrowed from her husband's advance for writing a book.

It looks like the Sanders think that real estate is a better deal than stock markets right now.

Socialists aren't devoid of all business acumen. They just believe the profit should be spread around more evenly.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> Trump has become a joke candidate. He should resign and let somone else take his place before it is too late.
> 
> The Republican Party is considering abandoning funding or support for the Trump campaign and would focus entirely on other races.
> 
> They did that before during Bob Dole's candidacy in 1996 when he ran against Bill Clinton and it was perceived he couldn't win.
> 
> Without party support and money, Trump might as well shuffle around Trump Towers in his housecoat until it's over.
> 
> _Turn out the lights, the party is over............_


Trump is in it to win it. Campaign manager Stephen Bannon, pollster Kellyanne Conway and RNC chairman Reince Priebus hit the Sunday morning news circuit to reassure voters that *Trump and the RNC are happy, happy, happy*.


----------



## bass player

Oops...the FBI just found another 14,900 emails that Hillary conveniently "forgot" to turn over. I expect the mainstream media to be all over this one... :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## bass player

And yet another Hillary lie has been exposed...Colin Powell has refuted her claim where she said that he told her that it was okay to use private email for government business.

And, once again, the silence from the media is deafening. Of course, we'll hear from a few of her supporters on this site that after a few months it's "old news" and no longer important... :biggrin:


----------



## BoringInvestor

bass player said:


> And yet another Hillary lie has been exposed...Colin Powell has refuted her claim where she said that he told her that it was okay to use private email for government business.
> 
> And, once again,* the silence from the media is deafening. *Of course, we'll hear from a few of her supporters on this site that after a few months it's "old news" and no longer important... :biggrin:


Specifically which media is silent on this?


----------



## twa2w

bass player said:


> Why do you refuse to look up what he actually paid and instead give us meaningless numbers? Your weak attempt at deflection fools no one.
> 
> Here ya go: It really is his third house...it really is a vacation house...and it really is worth $600,000, which is more than his entire net worth. These are all signs of a true socialist... :biggrin: :biggrin:


I don't know the details of Sanders purchase but what is the big deal bout spending more than your net worth on a house purchase? I suspect that 99 % of the homeowners on this board spent more than their net worth on their first house and likely the house they are in today. That is how leveraging works.

I suspect at Bernies age, he may be buying this house for retirement in a few years and will be selling one of his other ones.
Maybe he wants to buy now when prices are low. When Trump gets in, America is going to be so great and create so many jobs, real estate will soar :-o 
Bernie, like other polititians will have a great pension and will never have to worry sbout building a big net worth to fund retirement. He can easily pay the mortgage with his pensions.


----------



## bass player

More corruption exposed:

"Documents obtained ifrom the State Department by Judicial Watch as part of a FOIA suit show that Hillary Clinton's top aide, Huma Abedin, facilitated meetings between Clinton Foundation donors and the secretary of state.

In several cases, the donors were forced to go through the Clinton Foundation to arrange the meeting after normal channels had denied them access.

The Abedin emails reveal that the longtime Clinton aide apparently served as a conduit between Clinton Foundation donors and Hillary Clinton while Clinton served as secretary of state. In more than a dozen email exchanges, Abedin provided expedited, direct access to Clinton for donors who had contributed from $25,000 to $10 million to the Clinton Foundation. In many instances, Clinton Foundation top executive Doug Band, who worked with the Foundation throughout Hillary Clinton’s tenure at State, coordinated closely with Abedin. In Abedin’s June deposition to Judicial Watch, she conceded that part of her job at the State Department was taking care of “Clinton family matters.”

Included among the Abedin-Band emails is an exchange revealing that when Crown Prince Salman of Bahrain requested a meeting with Secretary of State Clinton, he was forced to go through the Clinton Foundation for an appointment. Abedin advised Band that when she went through “normal channels” at State, Clinton declined to meet. After Band intervened, however, the meeting was set up within forty-eight hours. According to the Clinton Foundation website, in 2005, Salman committed to establishing the Crown Prince’s International Scholarship Program (CPISP) for the Clinton Global Initiative. And by 2010, it had contributed $32 million to CGI. The Kingdom of Bahrain reportedly gave between $50,000 and $100,000 to the Clinton Foundation. And Bahrain Petroleum also gave an additional $25,000 to $50,000."

I know, I know...it's all just another conspiracy. :biggrin:


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Bernie Sanders has $7.2 million left over in his election campaign fund. I'm sure his supporters don't begrudge him spending their money on a beach house. That is how socialism works.


----------



## bass player

Further proof of Clinton's corruption:

"*At least 85 of 154 people from private interests who met or had phone conversations scheduled with Clinton while she led the State Department donated to her family charity *or pledged commitments to its international programs, according to a review of State Department calendars released so far to The Associated Press. Combined, the 85 donors contributed as much as $156 million. At least 40 donated more than $100,000 each, and 20 gave more than $1 million.

Donors who were granted time with Clinton included an internationally known economist who asked for her help as the Bangladesh government pressured him to resign from a nonprofit bank he ran; a Wall Street executive who sought Clinton's help with a visa problem; and Estee Lauder executives who were listed as meeting with Clinton while her department worked with the firm's corporate charity to counter gender-based violence in South Africa.

The meetings between the Democratic presidential nominee and foundation donors do not appear to violate legal agreements Clinton and former president Bill Clinton signed before she joined the State Department in 2009. But the frequency of the overlaps shows the intermingling of access and donations, and fuels perceptions that giving the foundation money was a price of admission for face time with Clinton. Her calendars and emails released as recently as this week describe scores of contacts she and her top aides had with foundation donors."


----------



## sags

Crooked Hillary or Nutsy Trump..........sad.


----------



## sags

On the other hand, it shows that Hillary Clinton knows how the real world works and how to get what she wants.

Want a favor done..........donate to charity.

That would be a very useful skill as President of the US.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Bernie Sanders has $7.2 million left over in his election campaign fund. I'm sure his supporters don't begrudge him spending their money on a beach house. That is how socialism works.


Using campaign money for personal use is illegal. If he bought a beach house with the money, then he broke the law.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> On the other hand, it shows that Hillary Clinton knows how the real world works and how to get what she wants.
> 
> Want a favor done..........donate to charity.
> 
> That would be a very useful skill as President of the US.


Doing favours as secretary of state for those who donate to your personal charity is a useful skill? :stupid:


----------



## new dog

The coverage of Hillary's corruption should be legendary from the mainstream media, if you were to compare it to Trumps bad press. If Nixon had done this back in the day the party would have been destroyed and he would have been thrown out of the country, if you compare it to his Watergate coverage.

Of course most people here and everywhere that listens to the mainstream media just shrug and say, "oh well she is still the best choice".


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> The coverage of Hillary's corruption should be legendary from the mainstream media, if you were to compare it to Trumps bad press. If Nixon had done this back in the day the party would have been destroyed and he would have been thrown out of the country, if you compare it to his Watergate coverage.
> 
> Of course most people here and everywhere that listens to the mainstream media just shrug and say, "oh well she is still the best choice".


Nixon deleted 18 minutes of video. Hillary deleted 45,000 emails.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Doing favours as secretary of state for those who donate to your personal charity is a useful skill? :stupid:


Sure why not ?

A passport here, a phone call there.........that is how things get done in the real world.

Even a President has to work within the system. Do you think it is any different negotiating an omnibus bill.........full of pork barrel items ?

Obama wants to improve health care for kids, and the Republicans want to include tax breaks for corporations in the bill.

And so it goes.

Anyone wanting to change the system should have voted for Bernie Sanders.

Both Clinton and Trump are part of the system and neither would do much to change it.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Nixon deleted 18 minutes of video. Hillary deleted 45,000 emails.


Difference...........Nixon left other evidence. Clinton didn't leave anything they have found yet.

Lots of allegations about dubious actions, but no criminal charges yet against Clinton.

The best efforts of the Republicans have turned up no evidence of a crime, say the FBI

Hours and hours of hearings and investigations have turned up nothing criminal.

Time for the Republicans to move on. If Clinton is criminal, she is too good at it for the Republicans to catch her.

The Republicans have been on this bandwagon for years with no results.

They should spend their time more wisely on policy issues, which they are finally attempting to do.

Too little........too late, I think.


----------



## Nelley

Sags; The crooked Democratic pigs (like Clinton) and the crooked Republican pigs are all feeding at the same trough-which is why they hate and fear Donald Trump.


----------



## olivaw

Not to be sexist or anything, but how cool is it that the first female nominee for POTUS is heading towards a landslide victory. 



> Among the 44 states where general election polling has taken place, Hillary Clinton is ahead of Trump in every state that President Obama won in 2012, plus North Carolina.


http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-is-making-more-states-competitive-red-states/


----------



## bass player

The FBI specifically and explicitly stated that Hillary broke the law. She just wasn't charged, even though others who did the same thing were.

The fact that sags thinks it's okay to use a personal charity as a slush fund to buy government favours says all you need to know...the rules don't matter as long as the person they want breaks them.

sags lacks the moral gene.


----------



## sags

The FBI concluded there was no "intent" by Clinton to commit a crime, which is one of the elements they said was required to proceed with criminal charges.

If others were convicted, it must have been proven they intended to commit the crime.


----------



## twa2w

sags said:


> The FBI concluded there was no "intent" by Clinton to commit a crime, which is one of the elements they said was required to proceed with criminal charges.
> 
> If others were convicted, it must have been proven they intended to commit the crime.


This sounds like a pretty flimsy excuse not to charge her. One of the concepts in law is that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Ignorance would be her only excuse. If she knew it was illegal then she deliberately flauted the law. If she didn't know anything about computer security, I could see ignorance but even then I would be astounded that in her position sho would not be briefed.

Honest officer, I didn’t intent to speed but I a) must have missed the speed limit sign or b) I wasnt paying attention to the speedometer. Yep either ine of those will fly :-o 

Or how about Gee officer, I didnt see that pedestrian. I didn't intend to kill him. Think that would get me out of a charge of criminal negligence or wrongful death. 

Intent does come into play in several areas of the law but frankly I don't see how it applies to Clinton's situation. Frankly she broke more than one law here and definitely should have been charged.
Frankly, Bill's little meeting was totally inappropriate and should likely have lead to charges or at least discussion of same.

Ah one rule for the rich and powerful and one rule for the rest of us.


----------



## new dog

The FBI has no choice but to never convict Hillary, no matter what the crime is and if Hillary is elected, the top people will become even higher above the law then they already are. If Trump had done even half of what Hillary did he would have be convicted.


----------



## mrPPincer

Ok dogcom, & twa2w, for one, The FBI can not convict anyone.
Only a court of law can do that.

2. The FBI and all police forces have a responsibility to the taxpayers to not waste the court's time on frivolous charges that won't fly, simple as that.


----------



## gibor365

new dog said:


> The FBI has no choice but to never convict Hillary, no matter what the crime is and if Hillary is elected, the top people will become even higher above the law then they already are. If Trump had done even half of what Hillary did he would have be convicted.


This is called "DEMOCRACY" :biggrin:


----------



## olivaw

Benjamin Wittes* does not agree that Clinton was given special treatment. Writing on the *Lawfare Blog * he said:



> I have never seen a criminal matter proceed without even an allegation of something more than mere mishandling of senstive information. Hillary Clinton is not above the law, but to indict her on these facts, she'd have to be significantly below the law.


_*Benjamin Wittes is editor in chief of Lawfare and a Senior Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books and is co-chair of the Hoover Institution's Working Group on National Security, Technology, and Law._


----------



## Nelley

It appears that the deal was that as long as Crooked Hillary winds down the whole criminal operation as quickly as possible they will be allowed to keep the stolen loot.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> The FBI concluded there was no "intent" by Clinton to commit a crime, which is one of the elements they said was required to proceed with criminal charges.
> 
> If others were convicted, it must have been proven they intended to commit the crime.


How was there no "intent"? She deliberately refused to use the secure government email provided to her. The intent was there right from the beginning. To think that Hillary didn't know that she couldn't use personal email for secure government business stretches all credibility.

At the very least, her actions prove that she is not fit for office.


----------



## Shanline

Yes, agree! Need to take immediate steps asap in order to catch them.


----------



## sags

Ben Carson has called on Donald Trump to release his medical records. Carson called him "elderly".

CNN asked the Trump campaign leader about the letter Trump has produced from a doctor.

Fact finding has revealed the doctor doesn't have relationships with the hospitals he claims he does.............and never has.

The whole letter looks like a made up concoction. Doctors have said it is nothing like a medical report they have seen before.

The pressure is building for Trump to reveal both his tax and real medical records.

People are wondering what he is hiding.


----------



## new dog

Vote for Hillary vote for a criminal.

Would you buy something if you thought it was stolen even if it was a great deal? I know I could never do it and I would never vote for a crook.


----------



## mrPPincer

Rhetoric does not make one a criminal.

Conviction in a court of law does.

There have been no charges, just empty rhetoric.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Ben Carson has called on Donald Trump to release his medical records. Carson called him "elderly".
> 
> CNN asked the Trump campaign leader about the letter Trump has produced from a doctor.
> 
> Fact finding has revealed the doctor doesn't have relationships with the hospitals he claims he does.............and never has.
> 
> The whole letter looks like a made up concoction. Doctors have said it is nothing like a medical report they have seen before.



the letter looked like a screaming fake. It's not surprising journos/investigators have determined that the alleged "doctor" was never connected to the hospital he was claiming.

faking a testimonial from a so-called medical doctor with falsely-claimed medical connections is a gross mistake. The medical community does not allow itself to be lightly besmirched, will seek always to maintain its pristine & reliable reputation. 

one cannot see how faking a medical testimonial will do anything other than cause even more conservative american MDs to forsake the republican party.

.


----------



## Nelley

Here's the latest farce-Hillary's handlers are pushing for a "sit down" debate (which is unprecedented) because she can't stand up for a debate.


----------



## mrPPincer

The dumasses shoulda gone with Bernie imho.


----------



## bass player

Hillary supporters questioning Trump's health...you can't make this stuff up!!

The next thing you know, they'll be questioning his email practices... :stupid:


----------



## humble_pie

americans are correct to question trump's health. Is it jaundice yellow like his dyed hair?


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player, it wasn't a question about his health, but about the published health record, and how it looked like it was penned by none other than the donald, using trumpisms and non-medical terms, seemingly yet another blatant attempt by Trump to get out of the job, which the masses will ofc yet again ignore.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/images/uploads/trump_health_record.pdf

Besides, as someone mentioned above someplace, for a doctor to claim, unequivocally, that Trump will be the healthiest individual to ever sit as president would mean he had examined or had access to the medical records of all previous presidents, which is plainly BS, he's a liar.


----------



## olivaw

What's funny is that Trump was subjected to a single day of mockery over his health letter when it was released in December. At the time, a number of journalists and MDs questioned whether it was a fake but nobody was paying attention. It was quickly forgotten. 

Renewed interest in the (fake?) letter came after Trump and his surrogates started harping about Hillary Clinton's health. The con man didn't just try to con voters about his own health, he tried to double down and con them about his opponents health. It backfired.

Journalists are asking questions.


----------



## new dog

mrPPincer said:


> Rhetoric does not make one a criminal.
> 
> Conviction in a court of law does.
> 
> There have been no charges, just empty rhetoric.



You can't convict someone who is above the law.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> You can't convict someone who is above the law.



dogcom this really does look like the twilight zone.

you're saying that someone is a crook even though the person has never been charged, but nevertheless the party is undeniably a crook who belongs in jail just because you say so?

whatever happened to the justice system, in your view? the justice system of innocent-until-proven-guilty plus fair-trial-with-evidence that Marie Henein so brilliantly upheld when she defended jian ghomeshi recently in toronto.

you're saying the justice system is a hoax? you're saying the mob should rule? you are saying that citizens are to be summarily lynched by any angry observer who happens to pass by?

oh dear
let's hope the ku klux klan is not nascent in canada


.


----------



## bass player

humble pie thinks that if someone lies on camera but is not charged, then they are completely innocent. The lie has magically disappeared and no longer exists in their mind.

sags thinks it's okay for foreign interests to buy favours from the US government by donating to the private charity of the secretary of state, even though explicit laws are written to prevent this.

That's how some people think...their ideology is warped and they lack the ability to separate right from wrong. They are incapable of reason and any and all evidence of misdeeds by their chosen leaders is simply dismissed, while the slightest misspoken word by those they hate is attacked with all the hatred they possess. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetically sad.

The term useful idiot has never been so fitting of the progressive mindset.


----------



## sags

The exchanges between Secretary Clinton and Bahrain are held up as examples of "pay to play" by the conspiracy theorists.

But, it happens that Bahrain is an important strategic non NATO partner with the US in the middle east.

Bahrain also happens to be the home port of the US Fifth Fleet, which operates in the Persian Gulf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Support_Activity_Bahrain

The suggestion that Bahrain "must" make donations to the Clinton Foundation to talk to Secretary Clinton is laughable.

The other allegations are pretty much the same kind of dead ends.

Journalists aren't reporting a lot of the "allegations" because they are garbage. Voters are ignoring them as such anyways.

Voters want to hear about policies, and Trump flip flopped 7 times yesterday on his latest immigration policy.

Are the 11 million illegal immigrants going to be deported or not ? Trump won't answer that because he has no clue.

It has gotten to the point that Trump surrogates can't answer questions because they don't know.

Trump is a loose cannon. Nobody knows what he is going to do or say.........because he doesn't even know.

He just tells the audience he is talking to whatever they want to hear and then changes on his next campaign stop.

Trump is the worst candidate the Republicans have ever nominated, and that is saying a lot.

Republican politicians across the US are going to be defeated because of their nominee.


----------



## sags

Trump's medical letter appears to be a fraud, and the doctor isn't connected to the organizations and hospital he claims.

Trump's medication list suggests he has heart problems.

Compare that to Hillary Clinton's full medical records, which showed her to be in good health.

The Republicans are throwing mud hoping something sticks, but it isn't working.

Instead of talking about policies, they are trying to win by discrediting Clinton.

Yesterday, Trump called Clinton a bigot. Good luck with that.........considering Clinton's long history of helping minorities.

Maybe today they will say she is an alien from another planet.

Trump has 12% support among Latinos and 2% among black voters. They already know who represents them.


----------



## olivaw

Watch this woman's reaction to Trump calling Clinton a bigot. 





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQTZVNjyV2w

You have to admit, Trump's ineptitude as a candidate can be amusing.


----------



## sags

Talking about black support in front of an almost all white rally.............epic irony.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> humble pie thinks that if someone lies on camera but is not charged, then they are completely innocent. The lie has magically disappeared and no longer exists in their mind.
> 
> sags thinks it's okay for foreign interests to buy favours from the US government by donating to the private charity of the secretary of state, even though explicit laws are written to prevent this.
> 
> That's how some people think...their ideology is warped and they lack the ability to separate right from wrong. They are incapable of reason and any and all evidence of misdeeds by their chosen leaders is simply dismissed, while the slightest misspoken word by those they hate is attacked with all the hatred they possess. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetically sad.
> 
> The term useful idiot has never been so fitting of the progressive mindset.



another mob lyncher .each:


.


----------



## new dog

Let us put it this way.

If Hillary Clinton and Humble Pie get insider information from the same source and buy equal amount of shares what would happen?

Humble pie would be convicted of insider trading and Hillary would not.

What would humble pie say about this.

Humble would say that she was convicted and Hillary was not, so Hillary didn't do it even though she did.


----------



## ValMiks10

I am not really following this too much, but I have just one simple wish and that to see this Trump losing, I have seen some of his speeches and I truly dislike this person, so I just wish he doesn’t win as per rest, it’s okay for me!


----------



## sags

Clinton wins. Trump gets high level appointment on trade. Trump's Republican voters are happy. Republican elite sit in the corner and cry. 

They got played.................and it was a thing of beauty.

It reminds me of the first time I saw the movie "The Sting".


----------



## twa2w

mrPPincer said:


> Ok dogcom, & twa2w, for one, The FBI can not convict anyone.
> Only a court of law can do that.
> 
> 2. The FBI and all police forces have a responsibility to the taxpayers to not waste the court's time on frivolous charges that won't fly, simple as that.


I never said anything about convicting.
Actually in this case the FBI would normally refer this to a district attorney, or to the attorney general at this level, to review to see if charges were warranted. Assuming they ( the fbi) had some evidence to take the the ag, which it would appear they did.
From there, if charges were possible, the next step is a grand jury and then on to trial if the grand jury indicts( not sure if that is right terminology). The trial would determine conviction or aquital.
I believe this went to the AG. Hence Bills meeting with Loretta.

Just kinda stinks even if she is innocent..

However the public really never knows all the details. Even if it foes go to trial.


----------



## olivaw

The Trump team claims that the polls are wrong because people are embarrassed to admit to pollsters that they will vote for Trump.


Will they bring back _unskewedpolls.com_? :excitement:


----------



## new dog

I would be embarrassed to vote for Trump or Hillary. If you claim to vote for Hillary you are fine with crime. If you vote for trump you are who knows what. In the end people in the US need to rise up and demand a system for the people of all colours, which includes white.


----------



## Nelley

Sags: It sounds like you are unaware of who Donald Trump is-it is not a promotion for the guy to be voted President, it is at best a lateral move-personally I would rather have Trump's non-political life than be President of the USA. Anyway, you are dreaming if you think that guy is that small-if he loses he goes back to business and spends the next four years basically laughing at Crooked Hillary and the idiots who voted for her.


----------



## andrewf

Trump is not particularly rich, he just plays a billionaire on TV. Think Kevin O'Leary.


----------



## mordko

Trump is rich. He got his money from daddy. Once he loses he will throw a hissy fit like the world has never seen.


----------



## Nelley

Trump is probably better off losing-Obozo has doubled the debt-the Hillary zombies can't comprehend the implications going forward-it is a gigantic problem.


----------



## Pluto

new dog said:


> I would be embarrassed to vote for Trump or Hillary. .


Yeah. I had a dream they both got disqualified, and the election had to be postponed while they found a pair of credible candidates.


----------



## sags

The "alt right" fringe groups are trying to take over the Republican Party.

David Duke, past Grand Wizard of the KKK, and other fringe right wing radicals have ties to Trump.

As soon as the election is over, the Republicans will makeover their party and boot all the wingnuts out.

They should have cleaned house a long time ago.


----------



## new dog

Trump is many things but I don't think he goes along with the likes of the KKK or whatever, I think that is a media creation. In fact Hillary is probably as much or more racist then Trump. She gets contributions from George Soros one of the worst people on this planet. He has the resources to cause real problems in the US and all over the world. The KKK and Duke you could probably just ignore.


----------



## mrPPincer

new dog said:


> The KKK and Duke you could probably just ignore.


Yep, only because Trump will go down in the worst republican (so-called) defeat ever, and they will disappear back into obscurity where they belong.


----------



## bass player

^^

David Duke votes Republican and like Trump. So what? There is also a very, very long list of wing nuts that vote Democrat and support Hillary.


----------



## mrPPincer

Americans were clearly looking for something else, I think that's obvious.

The sad thing is, imho, is that Bernie didn't get in there.

The only choice left is what looks like another institutional client sadly.

We'll see in another four years I guess.


----------



## bass player

What has become obvious is that some people fear that Trump "might" do something that they don't like....but, there is absolutely no proof of that other than Democrat fear mongering. 

On the other hand, Hillary has decades of known lies, corruption, and incompetence behind her, plus the media covers for her either by lying or by omission. If she's elected, the corruption and lies will only increase, and accountability will decrease even further as she becomes even more untouchable. At least with Trump, the media will expose the slightest misstep and he'll get away with nothing.

So, they have the choice of Trump with no background of corruption and a media what will report fully on the slightest hint of scandal vs. Hillary's decades of corruption, graft, and outright lies and a compliant media that has proven they are willing to cover for her.


----------



## humble_pie

.

it's interesting how the trumpettes' list of mud-slinging adjectives & adverbs keeps growing. Where not so long ago they started out with just plain Lying, now they're up to 15 major offences tightly packed into a couple of sentences:




bass player said:


> ... Democrat fear mongering ... decades of known lies, corruption, and incompetence ... lying ... omission ... corruption ... lies ... untouchable ... corruption ... scandal ... Hillary's decades of corruption, graft, and outright lies ... compliant media that has proven they are willing to cover for her.



.


----------



## Nelley

Humble: Julian Assange doesn't agree with you-I guess Assange is just another member of your vast Trumpette conspiracy-Crooked Hillary is as pure as Snow White.


----------



## sags

Trump cloaks himself in the cloth of the people, but he is not one of them and never has been since the day he was born.

The proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing hopes to gain the seat of power, to strike down regulations and laws he views as unfair to him.

Wages are too high...he says. We cannot compete with the world...he opines. Get out of my way.....is how he does business.

Trump is a man who uses eminent domain laws to force people from their family homes, because they are in his way.

Trump is a man who hired thousands of illegal immigrants and then used the threat of deportation to pay them less than minimum wages.

Trump is a man who has gathered 5,000 outstanding lawsuits, from small business owners he has refused to pay to corporate lenders he dodged in bankruptcy. He has settled a few with the Justice Department and views the cost as the cost of doing business, but refuses to settle claims by those without sufficient resources to proceed far in legal matters. He will simply delay and bury them under a tide of legal costs.

Trump is a man with no regard for people. He has said himself on many occasions that money is his scorecard in life and he will take whatever path to get it. He derives satisfaction from bulldozing over people to get what he wants.

Average Joes who believe Trump is concerned about their lives, about their futures, about their families are not considering his past.

At 70 years of age...........Trump is not changing now.

Compare the past histories of Trump and Clinton. Compare the experience of Trump and Clinton.

There is no comparison. Clinton is by far the better choice.


----------



## sags

An author/biographer/professor is releasing a new book on Trump.

It is an in depth record of his past dealings and connections around the world.

The author said on CNN today that it will reveal much of what previously was unknown about Trump, including connections to a cocaine cartel and the Russian mob.

A recent investigation into Trump's myriad of business connections, has revealed that his business empire is built on a huge mountain of debt.

The accumulation of debt may be more than the businesses are worth. Trump may not have any real equity in his businesses.

We shall see what is revealed in the future.

Trump got a pass from the media during the primaries. He could call CNN or any media network and be immediately put "on air" for free commercial time. He used it as a great advantage against his Republican opponents.

Now that journalists are looking deeper, and the media scrutiny is more intense...........Trump doesn't like the media anymore.


----------



## sags

The cost of Trump's deportation plan.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/26/heres-why-trump-flip-flopped-on-deportation-plan.html


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> The cost of Trump's deportation plan.
> 
> http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/26/heres-why-trump-flip-flopped-on-deportation-plan.html



the article says that trump's deportation plan would round up & export 11 million undocumented workers, would cost the US as much as $600 billion dollars & would destroy the US economy.

.


----------



## bass player

sags: After you read the book about Trump, why don't you watch "Clinton Cash"?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmMe-2qaSss


----------



## Nelley

Humble: CNBC should know-maybe it will be 600 gazillion dollars vanishing into thin air-I guess Old Yeller is gonna have to conjure up some more digital fiat.


----------



## bass player

Is it still a "right wing conspiracy" when the left media deliberately ignores inconvenient information that puts Clinton or a supporter in a bad light?


"Leaked documents released a few days ago provide juicy insider details of how a fabulously rich businessman has been using his money to influence elections in Europe, underwrite an extremist group, target U.S. citizens who disagreed with him, dictate foreign policy, and try to sway a Supreme Court ruling, among other things. Pretty compelling stuff, right?

Not if it involves leftist billionaire George Soros. In this case, the mainstream press couldn't care less.

On Saturday, a group called DC Leaks posted more than 2,500 documents going back to 2008 that it pilfered from Soros' Open Society Foundations' servers. Since then, the mainstream media have shown zero interest in this gold mine of information.

There is not a single story on the New York Times, CNN, Washington Post, CBS News or other major news sites that even noted the existence of these leaked documents, let alone reported on what's in them.

As we noted in this space on Monday, the leaked documents show how Soros' far-flung international organizations attempted to manipulate Europe's 2014 elections. The "List of European Elections 2014 Projects" details over 90 Soros efforts he had under way that year.

The documents reveal that Soros has poured nearly $4 million into anti-Israel groups, with a goal of "challenging Israel's racist and anti-democratic policies."

Here at home, they show that Soros proposed paying the Center for American Politics $200,000 to conduct a smear campaign against conservative activists.

More recently, an October 2015 document came to light showing that Soros' Open Society U.S. Programs had donated $650,000 to "invest in technical assistance and support for the groups at the core of the burgeoning #BlackLivesMatter movement." Since then, several BLM protests have turned violent.

That same document details how this group successfully used its "extensive networks" to pressure the Obama administration into increasing the number of refugees it would take to 100,000, despite concerns that Islamic terrorists could use the refugee program to infiltrate the U.S.

A separate memo details how Soros tried to use his clout to sway Supreme Court justices into approving President Obama's unilateral effort to rewrite immigration law. "Grantees are seeking to influence the Justices (primarily via a sophisticated amicus briefs and media strategy) in hopes of securing a favorable ruling in U.S. v Texas," the memo, dug up by the Daily Caller, states.

Anyone with this much power and influence demands close media scrutiny. Particularly when he has extremely close ties to the would-be next president of the United States.

This year alone, Soros has given $7 million to the Clinton-supporting Priorities USA super-PAC, and a total of $25 million to support Democrats and their causes, according to Politico.

And when Soros speaks, Clinton listens. A separate email released by WikiLeaks shows Soros giving what read like step-by-step instructions to then-Secretary of State Clinton on how to deal with unrest in Albania in early 2011, including a list of people who should be considered as candidates to become an official mediator sent to that country. Days later, the EU dispatched one of the people on Soros' list."


----------



## bass player

Hillary went to great extent to delete her so-called "personal" emails using BleachBit. Of course, deleting government emails is a direct violation of the law:


"South Carolina Representative Trey Gowdy appeared on Fox News today and disclosed new details about the Clinton email scandal that seem to indicate intent to destroy evidence. Per the clip below, Gowdy reveals that Clinton used "BleachBit" to erase the "personal" emails from her private server. 

For those not familiar with the software, BleachBit is intended to help users delete files in a way to "prevent recovery" and "hide traces of files deleted." Per the BleachBit website:

*Beyond simply deleting files, BleachBit includes advanced features such as shredding files to prevent recovery, wiping free disk space to hide traces of files deleted by other applications*, and vacuuming Firefox to make it faster.

During his appearance on Fox, Gowdy clearly indicates that Clinton's use of BleachBit undermines her claims that she only deleted innocuous "personal" emails from her private server. 

“If she considered them to be personal, then she and her lawyers had those emails deleted. They didn’t just push the delete button, they had them deleted where even God can't read them.

"They were using something called BleachBit. You don't use BleachBit for yoga emails." 

"When you're using BleachBit, it is something you really do not want the world to see."

Gowdy also questioned whether Hillary considered "Clinton Foundation" emails to be "personal" and, if not, asked why the FBI's investigation revealed minimal emails about Foundation-related topics."


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Hillary went to great extent to delete her so-called "personal" emails using BleachBit. Of course, deleting government emails is a direct violation of the law:
> 
> 
> "South Carolina Representative Trey Gowdy appeared on Fox News today and disclosed new details about the Clinton email scandal that seem to indicate intent to destroy evidence. Per the clip below, Gowdy reveals that Clinton used "BleachBit" to erase the "personal" emails from her private server.
> 
> For those not familiar with the software, BleachBit is intended to help users delete files in a way to "prevent recovery" and "hide traces of files deleted." Per the BleachBit website:
> 
> *Beyond simply deleting files, BleachBit includes advanced features such as shredding files to prevent recovery, wiping free disk space to hide traces of files deleted by other applications*, and vacuuming Firefox to make it faster.
> 
> During his appearance on Fox, Gowdy clearly indicates that Clinton's use of BleachBit undermines her claims that she only deleted innocuous "personal" emails from her private server.
> 
> “If she considered them to be personal, then she and her lawyers had those emails deleted. They didn’t just push the delete button, they had them deleted where even God can't read them.
> 
> "They were using something called BleachBit. You don't use BleachBit for yoga emails."
> 
> "When you're using BleachBit, it is something you really do not want the world to see."
> 
> Gowdy also questioned whether Hillary considered "Clinton Foundation" emails to be "personal" and, if not, asked why the FBI's investigation revealed minimal emails about Foundation-related topics."



how do you know hillary clinton used bleachbit though? just wondering


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> how do you know hillary clinton used bleachbit though? just wondering


Why don't you do some digging and find out...or do you only look up Trump stuff?


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Is it still a "right wing conspiracy" when the left media deliberately ignores inconvenient information that puts Clinton or a supporter in a bad light?
> 
> 
> "Leaked documents released a few days ago provide juicy insider details of how a fabulously rich businessman has been using his money to influence elections in Europe, underwrite an extremist group, target U.S. citizens who disagreed with him, dictate foreign policy, and try to sway a Supreme Court ruling, among other things. Pretty compelling stuff, right?
> 
> Not if it involves leftist billionaire George Soros. In this case, the mainstream press couldn't care less.
> 
> On Saturday, a group called DC Leaks posted more than 2,500 documents going back to 2008 that it pilfered from Soros' Open Society Foundations' servers. Since then, the mainstream media have shown zero interest in this gold mine of information.
> 
> There is not a single story on the New York Times, CNN, Washington Post, CBS News or other major news sites that even noted the existence of these leaked documents, let alone reported on what's in them.
> 
> As we noted in this space on Monday, the leaked documents show how Soros' far-flung international organizations attempted to manipulate Europe's 2014 elections. The "List of European Elections 2014 Projects" details over 90 Soros efforts he had under way that year.
> 
> The documents reveal that Soros has poured nearly $4 million into anti-Israel groups, with a goal of "challenging Israel's racist and anti-democratic policies."
> 
> Here at home, they show that Soros proposed paying the Center for American Politics $200,000 to conduct a smear campaign against conservative activists.
> 
> More recently, an October 2015 document came to light showing that Soros' Open Society U.S. Programs had donated $650,000 to "invest in technical assistance and support for the groups at the core of the burgeoning #BlackLivesMatter movement." Since then, several BLM protests have turned violent.
> 
> That same document details how this group successfully used its "extensive networks" to pressure the Obama administration into increasing the number of refugees it would take to 100,000, despite concerns that Islamic terrorists could use the refugee program to infiltrate the U.S.
> 
> A separate memo details how Soros tried to use his clout to sway Supreme Court justices into approving President Obama's unilateral effort to rewrite immigration law. "Grantees are seeking to influence the Justices (primarily via a sophisticated amicus briefs and media strategy) in hopes of securing a favorable ruling in U.S. v Texas," the memo, dug up by the Daily Caller, states.
> 
> Anyone with this much power and influence demands close media scrutiny. Particularly when he has extremely close ties to the would-be next president of the United States.
> 
> This year alone, Soros has given $7 million to the Clinton-supporting Priorities USA super-PAC, and a total of $25 million to support Democrats and their causes, according to Politico.
> 
> And when Soros speaks, Clinton listens. A separate email released by WikiLeaks shows Soros giving what read like step-by-step instructions to then-Secretary of State Clinton on how to deal with unrest in Albania in early 2011, including a list of people who should be considered as candidates to become an official mediator sent to that country. Days later, the EU dispatched one of the people on Soros' list."



also wondering why u are always so worked up. This is canada. We don't vote & in the end all that will really matter to us will be the foreign, trade & military policies of the soon-to-be-elected US president.

why not mind our own business & leave americans to worry out their own future?

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> also wondering why u are always so worked up. This is canada. We don't vote & in the end all that will really matter to us will be the foreign, trade & military policies of the soon-to-be-elected US president.
> 
> why not mind our own business & leave americans to worry out their own future?
> 
> .


I know I can't vote. You can't either. So, why don't you simply exit this thread if you have no interest in it instead of demanding that those you disagree with leave?


----------



## newfoundlander61

When it comes down to voting I believe the people will go with Clinton.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> I know I can't vote. You can't either. So, why don't you simply exit this thread if you have no interest in it instead of demanding that those you disagree with leave?



backatcha. 

** why don't you simply exit this thread if you have no interest in it instead of demanding that those you disagree with leave? *
*
bass you're new to the forum. You have no rep or cred. You're being an obnoxious harasser. Nobody cares about your obsessions with trivia.

canadians do care deeply about the US elections & about the future of canada-US relations, though, which is why we post here, in the hopes of carrying on reasonable discussions & exchanging true information on a cooperative, collegial basis. For the most part cmf forum does not do vicious. Certainly not the way you do vicious.


.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Why don't you do some digging and find out...or do you only look up Trump stuff?



if you can't supply the source for your bleachbit accusation in a reasonable manner, one can only conclude you are making it up .each:


----------



## Nelley

Humble: Hillary's own lawyers have admitted this-now you are just being childish.


----------



## TomB19

newfoundlander61 said:


> When it comes down to voting I believe the people will go with Clinton.


Hillary is a weak candidate. Trump is losing badly.

If Trump could stop talking, he would have had a much better chance. He is relentlessly digging the hole deeper with every turn at the mic.

I think that, objectively, Trump has been attacked by media coverage in ways that Hillary has not been. This has been so since the beginning. In fact, it was substantially worse in the beginning. Hillary has been attacked by Fox but I don't think it has done near the damage. Fox viewers will vote Republican, no matter who is running.

It's interesting to think that Trump could be in this thing if he could just close his mouth.


----------



## kcowan

bass player said:


> What has become obvious is that some people fear that Trump "might" do something that they don't like....but, there is absolutely no proof of that other than Democrat fear mongering.
> 
> On the other hand, _nearly every elected politician_ has decades of known lies, corruption, and incompetence behind her, plus the media covers for her either by lying or by omission. If she's elected, the corruption and lies will only increase, and accountability will decrease even further as she becomes even more untouchable. At least with Trump, the media will expose the slightest misstep and he'll get away with nothing.
> .


Fixed that for you...


----------



## Nelley

Tom: What you are missing is that Crooked Hillary desperately needs this-she would literally kill for it-OTOH Trump is basically saying to the voters-take it or leave it-he really doesn't have anything at all to lose-most objective observers would realize that Donald Trump has a better life situation than any US president.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Humble: Hillary's own lawyers have admitted this-now you are just being childish.



on the contrary, it's prudent, wise & smart to inquire where a known internet loudmouth is getting his accusations ...

what lawyers? what is your source for the bleachbit accusation? won't you please present a citation ...


.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Trump is basically saying to the voters-take it or leave it-he really doesn't have anything at all to lose-most objective observers would realize that Donald Trump has a better life situation than any US president.



i see you are preparing ground for the day when trump either loses or gets pushed off the republican ticket.

it's true that sour grapes can be invoked.

_nah, i'm much better off not being the Prezz. I was only running on a whim. I understand that I destroyed the US republican party but maybe they can get over it._
.


----------



## Nelley

Humble: Since you have this delusion that everyone on this site works for you I will wait until your cheque clears before I start doing the complicated legwork that literally takes 2 minutes for a reasoning adult.


----------



## Nelley

Humble: Trump cares about the Republican party about as much as you do or I do. He is basically the first successful independent candidate.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Humble: Since you have this delusion that everyone on this site works for you I will wait until your cheque clears before I start doing the complicated legwork that literally takes 2 minutes for a reasoning adult.



what nonsense. 

no one will believe a known loudmouth who makes yet one more unbacked bleachbit accusation unless he or they - since you have joined the issue - are 100% prepared to back it up.

so far, there's no bleachbit citation. We can only wonder whether bass player made the whole thing up. Like the trash stories about hillary clinton dying of cancer.

them's your choices, nelley. Prove the bleachbit accusation or forever hold your peace.


.


----------



## Nelley

Humble: The citation is travelling by carrier pigeon or Pony express-you will have it next month.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> what nonsense.
> 
> no one will believe a known loudmouth who makes yet one more unbacked bleachbit accusation unless he or they - since you have joined the issue - are 100% prepared to back it up.
> 
> so far, there's no bleachbit citation. We can only wonder whether bass player made the whole thing up. Like the trash stories about hillary clinton dying of cancer.
> 
> them's your choices, nelley. Prove the bleachbit accusation or forever hold your peace.
> 
> 
> .


Trey Gowdy mentioned BleachBit...I only repeated what he said. If he was lying, I'm sure he will be charged with making false statements. Since no one from the Hillary campaign has denied this and no one as charged him with making a false statement, one must assume he had accurate information.

I didn't say Hillary had cancer...I simply pointed out a visible hole in her tongue. Many doctors who have seen it have said the hole resembles the aftermath a type of cancer surgery. What's your opinion?


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Humble: Trump cares about the Republican party about as much as you do or I do.




what a wonderful statement! i totally agree. Trump cares about the GOP as much as i do.

as for his history of political allegiance, trump looks to be kind of bi. Sometimes a democrat, sometimes a republican. Seems he's wavered back & forth. The history looks labile.

_"Yes, Donald Trump is a Republican. He is a registered Republican in the State of New York as of the year 2009. It is interesting to note that Donald Trump was once a Democrat, and he actually switched over to the Democrat party in 2001 after being registered as a Republican. He has also donated money to people in both the Republican and Democratic parties – most notably, he has donated money John McCain and George W. Bush of the Republican Parties, while also donating money to Ted Kennedy and John Kerry of the Democratic parties."
_
http://www.programmerinterview.com/index.php/assortment/is-donald-trump-a-republican/


.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Trump is a man who uses eminent domain laws to force people from their family homes, because they are in his way.
> 
> Trump is a man who hired thousands of illegal immigrants and then used the threat of deportation to pay them less than minimum wages.
> 
> Trump is a man who has gathered 5,000 outstanding lawsuits, from small business owners he has refused to pay to corporate lenders he dodged in bankruptcy. He has settled a few with the Justice Department and views the cost as the cost of doing business, but refuses to settle claims by those without sufficient resources to proceed far in legal matters. He will simply delay and bury them under a tide of legal costs.


If Trump hasn't been convicted of anything, then he is innocent. That's what the Hillary supporters keep saying.

Has Trump been convicted of any crime?


----------



## olivaw

Trump embraced the angry Alt-Right movement. He also embraced their love of wacko conspiracy theories and hoaxes. It's like having your crazy uncle run for president. 









http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-alt-right-trump-20160825-snap-story.html


----------



## Nelley

Crooked Hillary has strong support from the sheep-she is promising more of Obozo's program that doubled the US debt-anyone pointing out the obvious mathematical problem with this is a wacko hoaxer-as you state.


----------



## sags

I don't see what the big deal would be "if" Clinton used specialized software to delete her emails anyways.

She is a very public figure and even her personal emails would be of huge interest to some media snoopers.

There isn't much point deleting emails that can be easily recovered.

If Fox news or some other media have information they should give it to the FBI.

Unless people believe the FBI and Justice Departments are crooked...........the allegations aren't viable.

Clinton has said she is finished answering unfounded allegations. 

She rightly says that no matter what she says or what proof there is.......the conservatives won't believe it anyways.

The Republicans are fighting among themselves about who is to blame for Trump being the nominee.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> I don't see what the big deal would be "if" Clinton used specialized software to delete her emails anyways.
> 
> She is a very public figure and even her personal emails would be of huge interest to some media snoopers.


It's a "big deal" because she deleted secure government emails. The FBI stated this publicly. Deleting secure government emails is illegal, and people have been fired for less. You have been told this several times, yet you continue to pretend that it doesn't matter.

It does matter...maybe not to you, but this isn't about your feelings. It's about facts and the law.


----------



## new dog

It is about feelings, if Hillary feels like deleting it and the FBI doesn't feel like pursuing it then that is that. You seem to keep forgetting bass, that Hillary is above the law, so case closed.

As far as the media is concerned sags, she doesn't have to worry because they are paid to keep their mouths shut or to deflect and blame Russia or Trump.


----------



## olivaw

Of course it is not a big deal. It's conspiracy theory 101 - find a tidbit of irrelevant information (like the routine use of data cleansing software), add in a dollop of maybe (like there may have been a copy of a government related email), sprinkle with a trivial understanding of statute (you don't erase government records) and pour on a slather of pretend outrage. It's all the trumpettes have left.

Trump is heading toward a humiliating defeat. Every day or two he opens his big mouth and inserts both feet and most of his legs into it. The media covers the spectacle and a bunch of Trumpettes whine about the media focus on Donald's idiocy. Does anybody really believe that they should eskew the ratings boost associated with a pompous megalomaniac's self destruction in favour of some half baked conspiracy theories that their crazy uncles read on an alt-right blog?


----------



## bass player

olivaw:

You're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts. 

The FBI publicly stated (go look it up) that Hillary used her personal email server to conduct secure government business, which is illegal. She also deleted many of those emails. That is also illegal. These are known facts. There is no conspiracy theory.


----------



## mordko

We are starting to see why Clinton used private accounts and then deleted the emails. She has been trading government favours for donations, and surely that's just the tip of the iceberg. She is a liar (comes with the name) and has surrounded herself with shady individuals with extremist connections.

There is only one politician who is an even bigger liar. His name is Donald.


----------



## olivaw

It's not exactly as you described Bass. The FBI said that Clinton was careless in her handling of government data. A number of US legal experts have said that it would have been ludicrous to lay charges. 

You're barking up the wrong tree with the use of public domain software to perform a routine data and disk recovery. On the one hand you guys complained that her server was insufficiently secured. On the other, you complain that her Exchange (email) administrator erased old/unused using acceptable technical protocols. Somebody who is not terribly familiar with the law and with routine disk management protocols came up with a theory that fails under examination. Is that somebody Donald Trump? 

Trump is a master conspiracy theorist. He spent years being the mouthpiece of the *crazy birther movement*. A few days ago he said Clinton was a bigot. Yesterday he was trying to claim that Hillary Clinton has ties *to the KKK*. He's either a con man or an unwell man.


----------



## Nelley

Olivaw: Since you brought up health, IMO Crooked Hillary is the sickest person (physically, mentally and psychologically) to get this close to the US presidency.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley, you've already shared your *opinion* about Clinton's health. You've advised us not to believe her *doctor*. You even posted that she couldn't stand up during a debate. Should we also disbelieve our lying eyes.


----------



## indexxx

I feel that about 98% of the world doesn't care who wins, as long as it's not Trump.


----------



## new dog

Outside of the western world it is hard to know what the rest of the world is thinking. Over there they are fed their own media propaganda mixed with truth so it is difficult to know what they are being told. I would think Trump wouldn't be liked but then again Obama has been sticking his nose or military all over the world and Hillary will be continuing this and probably much more.


----------



## new dog

Here is some censorship that bass and humble may like.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...erminates-writer-questioning-hillarys-health/

You are paid not to write negative things about Hillary.


----------



## mordko

Trump is popular in China: http://fortune.com/2016/05/30/donald-trump-popular-china/


----------



## BoringInvestor

new dog said:


> Here is some censorship that bass and humble may like.
> 
> http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...erminates-writer-questioning-hillarys-health/
> 
> You are paid not to write negative things about Hillary.


I find it funny this writer doesn't understand the first amendment (see his last tweet in the link), and compares this to China where the state has control over the media.
As he got these two basic facts wrong, or has a poor understanding of both, did he apply better logic and arguments in his articles? If not - maybe he's just a bad writer.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Here is some censorship that bass and humble may like.
> 
> http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...erminates-writer-questioning-hillarys-health/
> 
> You are paid not to write negative things about Hillary.




dogcom you wouldn't be trying to say that hubbity pie was actually paid to say or not say things about hillary clinton, would you?

because that would be such a laugh riotous piece of libel .:biggrin:

meanwhile look at your pathetic creature david seaman in your linked youtube video. Nervous, wrought up, grandiose, whining, several times even has the audacity to refer to himself as a *pundit.*

notice how seaman rocks back & forth incessantly. Ask an MD what kind of illnesses trigger uncontrollable rocking. Never a good sign.


.


----------



## bass player

BoringInvestor said:


> I find it funny this writer doesn't understand the first amendment (see his last tweet in the link), and compares this to China where the state has control over the media.
> As he got these two basic facts wrong, or has a poor understanding of both, did he apply better logic and arguments in his articles? If not - maybe he's just a bad writer.


I see that you purposely evade the real issue...that he was fired immediately after questioning Hillary's health. I guess it's just another amazing coincidence...or is it a right wing conspiracy?


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> dogcom you wouldn't be trying to say that hubbity pie was actually paid to say or not say things about hillary clinton, would you?
> 
> because that would be such a laugh riotous piece of libel .:biggrin:
> 
> meanwhile look at your pathetic creature david seaman in your linked youtube video. Nervous, wrought up, grandiose, whining, several times even has the audacity to refer to himself as a *pundit.*
> 
> notice how seaman rocks back & forth incessantly. Ask an MD what kind of illnesses trigger uncontrollable rocking. Never a good sign.
> 
> 
> .


I see that both you and boringinvestor are reading from the very same script...why was he let go immediately after questioning Hillary's health? Is it another amazing coincidence or is it another right wing conspiracy?


----------



## indexxx

new dog said:


> Outside of the western world it is hard to know what the rest of the world is thinking. Over there they are fed their own media propaganda mixed with truth so it is difficult to know what they are being told. I would think Trump wouldn't be liked but then again Obama has been sticking his nose or military all over the world and Hillary will be continuing this and probably much more.


Pretty sure all of my friends in Europe are aghast that a bully like him could even be in the running- it's just a farce to think he'd be a good prez. I've never really disliked Trump or thought much about him one way or the other (aside from his comedic value as a buffoon) but he's definitely not a good fit.


----------



## bass player

indexxx said:


> Pretty sure all of my friends in Europe are aghast that a bully like him could even be in the running- it's just a farce to think he'd be a good prez. I've never really disliked Trump or thought much about him one way or the other (aside from his comedic value as a buffoon) but he's definitely not a good fit.


Are your friends in Europe equally aghast that someone as morally and legally corrupt as Hillary is running?


----------



## BoringInvestor

bass player said:


> I see that you purposely evade the real issue...that he was fired immediately after questioning Hillary's health. I guess it's just another amazing coincidence...or is it a right wing conspiracy?


I don't know why he no longer writes for Huffington Post.

I suggested it may be because he's a bad writer and/or used bad arguments (as proof I pointed to his poor logic and understanding when it comes to the first amendment and state controlled media). 
As I gather, you're suggesting he was fired for his content.

So let's assume you're right, and let's examine his content.

Based on the headline from the author's first article on this matter, he seems to suggest Clinton suffers from seizures, lesions, and needs adrenaline pens.... is any of that verifiable, or likely to be true?


----------



## mordko

Let's take a step back:

1. David Seaman is not a journalist. He is a blogger. Not the same thing. He wasn't employed by Huffington, 

2. Have a look at another one of his masterpieces: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-seaman/wikileaks-revealed-massiv_b_11753560.html

- "Among some of the correspondences that some found disturbing, are a potentially close relationship between the D.N.C. and CNN host Jake Tapper." 

- "we regarded that sort of thing as very much not journalism in America"

- " some have concerns that the latest batch of emails may further provide proof "

- "An oddly predictive article published last year"

Seriously, even our HP can express herself marginally better than the above.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Wow. The latter half of this guy's Youtube video is spent in paranoid conspiracy. He really thinks that being banned from the Huff may be the first step to his being assissinated for dissing Hillary's health. Drinking too much of his own bathwater I think.

That said, this is my first post on this thread. All I have to say is that it is a very sad state of affairs when Clinton and Trump are the best that their respective parties could come up with. Maybe in another 4 yrs someone worthy of the position will appear on the scene?


----------



## mordko

^+1


----------



## mordko

Actually, the fact that Seaman was permitted to blog on Huffington Post in the first place, is an indication that they have no standards whatsoever.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Actually, the fact that Seaman was permitted to blog on Huffington Post in the first place, is an indication that they have no standards whatsoever.


No one has ever accused Huff Post of having journalistic integrity or standards. They are a typical leftist publication and everyone is welcome as long as they lean left. However, if they dare to question the message, they are no longer welcome.

People that read Huff Post do so to confirm their beliefs, not because they want factual information.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> why was he [Seaman] let go immediately after questioning Hillary's health?



to answer that, one would have to view the original article. There are signs in the video - seaman rocking constantly, seaman morbidly discussing his own death - that this self-proclaimed "journalist's" elevator doesn't go all the way to the top

presumably his article was a piece of nutbar raving. There are some posts in this thread - hillary clinton is dying, strokes, can't walk, etc - that are in the same nutbar category.

anybody & his dog can write for Huffington Post, but the e-zine has a reputation to protect. It has standards of editorial accuracy & responsibilitiy. If the wiped article was as morbid as the Seaman video, then good for the Huff Post for pulling it.

let's not forget that trump's response at the time of the clinton health slandering was to produce a chatty little boudoir note on his physical condition, purportedly penned by an MD whom nobody can find, affiliated with a hospital that denies such a connection ...


.


----------



## BoringInvestor

bass player said:


> No one has ever accused Huff Post of having journalistic integrity or standards. They are a typical leftist publication and everyone is welcome as long as they lean left. However, if they dare to question the message, they are no longer welcome.
> 
> People that read Huff Post do so to confirm their beliefs, not because they want factual information.


In your opinion, what media do people turn to when they want factual information?


----------



## bass player

Yeah...why would anyone question the health of an almost 69-year old woman who has had a serious concussion (confirmed by Bill), sometimes needs help climbing stairs, has had what appears to be mini-seizures, has been referred to as "often confused" by her personal aide, has a hole in her tongue from some sort of surgery, and who carefully schedules appearances to be very short and several days or weeks apart??

It must all be a right wing conspiracy!!


----------



## BoringInvestor

bass player said:


> Yeah...why would anyone question the health of an almost 69-year old woman who has had a serious concussion (confirmed by Bill), sometimes needs help climbing stairs, has had what appears to be mini-seizures, has been referred to as "often confused" by her personal aide, has a hole in her tongue from some sort of surgery, and who carefully schedules appearances to be very short and several days or weeks apart??
> 
> It must all be a right wing conspiracy!!


I'm willing to entertain Clinton may have health problems beyond what's 'normal' for a 69 year old. 
So let's chat about these 'health issues' if you're open to it.

First, of all these that you listed, which, if any, would you say would have the greatest impact her ability to be President for the next four (to eight) years? 
Perhaps your could rank them in order.


----------



## bass player

BoringInvestor said:


> I'm willing to entertain Clinton may have health problems beyond what's 'normal' for a 69 year old.
> So let's chat about these 'health issues' if you're open to it.
> 
> First, of all these that you listed, which, if any, would you say would have the greatest impact her ability to be President for the next four (to eight) years?
> Perhaps your could rank them in order.


Any health issue can befall a person, but the real question is her stamina. Can she put in the hours that the job demands...all of her public appearances are kept very short and are days or weeks apart. Is she capable of putting in back to back 16-hour days? Is she even capable of putting in 12-hour days for weeks at a time?


----------



## BoringInvestor

bass player said:


> Any health issue can befall a person, but the real question is her stamina. Can she put in the hours that the job demands...all of her public appearances are kept very short and are days or weeks apart. Is she capable of putting in back to back 16-hour days? Is she even capable of putting in 12-hour days for weeks at a time?


What is the best evidence she can't maintain that schedule?

If it's her public appearances, there is another plausible reasons for that - namely 'is there a need to do so'? 
If it was a closer race I'd expect to see her out there more. As it currently stands the aggregate of polling agrees she holds a few point lead vs. Trump nationally and would likely win if an election were held today.
With Trump providing fodder on a daily (or multiple times per day) basis I'd agree her best bet is to just let him do his thing and reap the benefit of more Republicans turning against him.
Generally, the trend is those ahead in the polls want to minimize appearances to limit opportunities for negative attention/incidents, while those behind want to maximize exposure at the risk of harming their chances.

Another argument to be made is her time spent as Secretary of State, and as a Senator (and perhaps less so her advocacy while First Lady for health care reforms).
I'd wager both roles have long, hectic, high stress days. Granting Clinton is older now than when she held those positions, but during her time in those roles was there evidence to suggest she couldn't maintain the workload?


So to sum up, if the question is 'can she handle the workload as President' - I'd say the balance of evidence suggests: yes she can.


I'd be happy to look at anything else you have on this.
Otherwise, can we move on to one of the health issues you identified in your post; I'd especially like to know which one you see as the most relevant to her functioning as President.


----------



## olivaw

One wonders why Trump spends so much time promoting the tired old Clinton health hoax. In *Gripped By Hysterical Panic, Trump Lies About Hillary Clinton’s Medical Records* politicsusa suggests that Trump was successfully able to use attack tactics and name-calling to win the Republican primary. The tactics aren't working against Clinton. He is still searching for a way to put Hillary Clinton on the defensive. 

Trump' scorched earth tactics have backfired. His losing campaign threatens to deeply wound the GOP. RCP senate race prediction has the Democrats gaining 4 senate seats. Combined with a Clinton victory, this would effectively give them control of the US Senate (The VP votes when there is a tie). Republicans are not happy with Trump.


----------



## mordko

Let's agree that nobody gives a flying sexual intercourse about the candidate's health. Perhaps people should but they don't. 

And if they did, questions would be asked about Trump who, if Hillary were to pop her clogs, would become the oldest president ever. Yes, I know, his doctor wrote that Trump has the best health in universe or something to that effect, but come on... Even his mental health is questionable, 10 years ago he didn't seem so weird. 

There is just one reason for Trump campaign to keep talking about Clinton's health failing. It's their only hope.


----------



## sags

Medical and tax record are poor debating points for Trump to engage in.

Clinton's complete medical record and history were revealed. He ailments were listed, the medical procedures and care were documented, and her current state of health was discussed. Her tax records have been revealed for years.

Trump has not revealed his medical records or his tax returns. What is he afraid the public will learn from them ?

Voters aren't satisfied with Trump's excuses. Hillary Clinton has expanded her lead to 7% in national polls and Trump is running out of time.

Early voting polls open in about 22 days in Minnesota. After that another 34 States will open for early voting.

Polls show that 90% of the voters have already made up their minds and many plan to vote early while there is good weather.

Trump will be already defeated before election day in November.

Even if Hillary Clinton were to falter for some reason,............Trump supporters wishful thinking, Tim Kaines is more than capable of taking over.

The voters have assumed the "anyone but Trump" campaign from the Republicans.


----------



## olivaw

Much as I wish it were so, I don't think that Trump is out of it yet. Fivethirtyeight says that it is *too soon for Hillary Clinton to run out the clock*. Polls are tightening and it remains possible for Trump to pull it off. 

Trump going to need more than a few sleazy attacks on his opponent to do so. He is going to need to demonstrate that he is up to the job. That's no small feat when he spent the last year proving to voters that he is not. 

I still predict a solid Hillary Clinton electoral victory. I hope that it's a blowout but I can't be sure. 

If Trump does well, even if he loses, it will be a vindication of his dishonest and bullying style. Expect Canadian Conservatives to choose a similar clown to lead their own party. Expect Kevin O'Leary.


----------



## Nelley

I assume the Clinton supporters here are strong supporters of Wynne and selfie boy-anybody supporting Hillary who isn't in the camp of those two?


----------



## mrPPincer

Are there any Clinton supporters on this forum even?

The point is.. nobody wants a world where that orange insane man gets to push nuclear buttons in one of his 'moments'.


----------



## sags

I judge on results.

Thus far, Wynne has not produced stellar governance. She is preoccupied with too many non important issues.

Although debt is not a huge problem yet, it will be if the trend line continues. A line by line audit needs to be made.

The problem is there is nobody else to lead Ontario. The PC and NDP are choosing weak leaders and bad policies.

Justin Trudeau has done a fine job, in my opinion. It has taken most of his time and effort cleaning up the messes left from the Harper era.

Going forward, I hope Trudeau takes a tough stance on future trade deals. We can no longer afford huge trade deficits from unfair trade.

The Canadian economy cannot depend solely on oil and real estate. We need a return to manufacturing.

The "pie in the sky" value added jobs just don't exist and never will.

We will never have a society where everyone gets paid to sit around and think. 

On immigration, social benefits, crime and justice.........Trudeau has hit all the right chords..............in my music book.


----------



## mrPPincer

^nailed it

Especially the point about the other parties not providing credible leaders.


----------



## mrPPincer

^Tim Hudak comes to mind (ontario), his bad math, and his sticking to his bad math, lost it for the PCs, not the fact that he said he'd fire a bunch of gov't employees. 

Although that may have contributed, but the righties are blind to it; they all think it's because he said he'd trim the excess gov't payroll. imho.


----------



## sags

I agree totally.

If Hudak had put out a detailed plan that would allow the public service to shrink naturally due to attrition, close down some lightly used services, and move employees where they are needed...........people would have supported him.

To come out and say he was going to cut 100,000 jobs and had no idea where or how steered voters right into Wynne's waiting arms.


----------



## olivaw

Quick aside to the Ontario discussion. Penn Gillette (of Penn and Teller fame) worked with Trump on Celebrity Apprentice. Worth a watch for people who are interested in what a famous and articulate Libertarian has to say. 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV7UXp1Yqlw


----------



## mrPPincer

sags said:


> I agree totally.
> 
> If Hudak had put out a detailed plan that would allow the public service to shrink naturally due to attrition, close down some lightly used services, and move employees where they are needed...........people would have supported him.
> 
> To come out and say he was going to cut 100,000 jobs and had no idea where or how steered voters right into Wynne's waiting arms.


I agree sags, but that wasn't exactly what I was talking about when I said *bad math*.

Hudak was out by an order of magnitude when he was talking about jobs created, *an elementary school error... *, *which . he . stood . by*. In case everyone forgot, besides which, ironically, he was promising to cut funding for early childhood education and increase class sizes all around.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> The Canadian economy cannot depend solely on oil and real estate. We need a return to manufacturing.



but how to engineer a return to manufacturing?

would it be a transformation you would welcome, sags?


.


----------



## Nelley

That clip is rather sad-I am a fan of Penn and Teller and this guy is really really ignorant-jeez Louise. Obviously he has spent his life perfecting magic-Colin Kaepernik sounds way more informed (that aint saying much).


----------



## Nelley

Don't worry-the carbon tax will help a lot, along with the Trans Pacific Partnership-Wynne and selfie boy will fix everything real good.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Are there any Clinton supporters on this forum even?
> 
> The point is.. nobody wants a world where that orange insane man gets to push nuclear buttons in one of his 'moments'.


That's just another baseless claim from the left. 

The real threat is that Hillary will gut the Constitution. She has already promised to do anything she can to get rid of the 2nd Amendment, and after that, free speech will be under attack...as it always is with the left. For those who are unaware, California Democrats recently tried to pass a bill so that climate "deniers" could be prosecuted. It would be illegal to have a different opinion than the government. And, of course, the always compliant media completely ignored this.

There is no reason not to assume that the federal Democrats would also do the same and make it illegal to have a different opinion than the government. Those who support Hillary will vote away their right to free speech.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player, second amendment is about firearms; they obviously need to pay attention to that problem down there, don't you think?

What has that to do with free speech, and how do you know that is next?


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Mordco, second amendment is about firearms; they obviously need to pay attention to that problem down there, don't you think?
> 
> What has that to do with free speech, and how do you know that is next?


The California Democrats tried to pass a bill so they could prosecute climate "deniers". In effect, they want to ban those with a different opinion on climate change than the government.

It's not a stretch to realize that once they get their foot in the door by banning different opinions on climate change, that banning different opinions on other issues will follow.

It has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with free speech.


----------



## mrPPincer

sorry got your name wrong, fixed it, but not before you quoted me, oh well.

Back on topic, you said California dems 'tried' to pass a nutbar bill.
Well, looks like it failed then. Democracy in action, right?


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> sorry got your name wrong, fixed it, but not before you quoted me, oh well.
> 
> Back on topic, you said California dems 'tried' to pass a nutbar bill.
> Well, looks like it failed then. Democracy in action, right?


Yes, it failed....this time. But, you are missing the very big point that the intent of the Democrats was to silence people with opposing views. This should be cause for concern.


----------



## mrPPincer

> She has already promised to do anything she can to get rid of the 2nd Amendment


A bit of an overstatement no?
She mentioned something about not selling guns to known criminals if I recall correctly.
Record checks. Is that a problem?


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Yes, it failed....this time. But, you are missing the very big point that the intent of the Democrats was to silence people with opposing views. This should be cause for concern.


You misunderstood the bill, probably because you read about it on a right wing blogs. The bill would have made it illegal for companies to knowingly publish false information about climate change. There would have been no restriction on individual free speech but there was a possible curtailment of corporate free speech. It was fortunate that the Democrats in the CA senate chose to sideline it.

Free speech is not unlimited. There are legal limits in both the US and Canada. No party in Canada or the United States has demonstrated a superior commitment to free speech. Nowadays, it is up to the courts to protect it from overzealous lawmakers.

Trump is no free speecher. He sues anybody who says things he doesn't like. Can you imagine that clown with the power of the US DOJ backing up his many nuisance lawsuits?


----------



## Nelley

Olivaw: I can imagine that clown putting your idol Hillary in a orange jumpsuit-maybe she and Huma can be cellmates.


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> but how to engineer a return to manufacturing?
> 
> would it be a transformation you would welcome, sags?
> 
> 
> .


The short answer would be to reverse the ill effects of globalization and promote the positive affects.

Creating a middle class in low wage countries is a defeated strategy from the beginning.

People don't rise to the middle class through low wages, especially in countries where low wages means starvation wages.

If one of the purposes of globalization is really to lift people out of poverty, they should be paid a comparable wage to the developed world.

But that wouldn't suit corporate purposes, who seek more profit by exploiting low wage workers.

And along the way, they have destroyed the manufacturing base in North America.

The effect of all those millions of job losses haven't been truly felt yet. The government hides the damage by providing social benefits to the displaced workers. Food stamps............for 1 out of 8 people in the US for example. A Social Security system that is doomed to collapse in a few years with an abundance of retired folks and an absence of the employed paying contributions. Governments are peddling as fast as they can and using debt to do it, but they are reaching the maximum levels of their credit limits.

This Presidential election is the beginning of the end. Social unrest will only continue to rise.

There are smart people in the world. If the world leaders were serious about affecting change, they could tap their resourceful minds.

As it is.......I think world leaders are trying their best to ignore the growing social upheaval around the world and hope it just goes away.

Hillary Clinton was forced by politics to declare she is now suddenly against free trade.

At the very least the idea should be firmly planted in the minds of politicians, that business producing in North America should be rewarded..........not punished by having to compete with a competitor who manufactures cheaply elsewhere.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> You misunderstood the bill, probably because you read about it on a right wing blogs. The bill would have made it illegal for companies to knowingly publish false information about climate change. There would have been no restriction on individual free speech but there was a possible curtailment of corporate free speech. It was fortunate that the Democrats in the CA senate chose to sideline it.


Since no one knows what the climate will do in the future, how is it possible to publish "false information"? 

And, you still haven't addressed the most important point. Should the government be allowed to legally prevent you from having a different opinion than they do?

Yes, or no?


----------



## mordko

Japan used to be poor. Globalization created middle class. South Korea used to be poor. Globalization created middle class. China. Ditto. India. Ditto. 

If you like protectionism, just say so. Quit the bs.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> The short answer would be to reverse the ill effects of globalization and promote the positive affects.
> 
> Creating a middle class in low wage countries is a defeated strategy from the beginning.
> 
> People don't rise to the middle class through low wages, especially in countries where low wages means starvation wages.
> 
> If one of the purposes of globalization is really to lift people out of poverty, they should be paid a comparable wage to the developed world.
> 
> But that wouldn't suit corporate purposes, to seek more profit by exploiting low wage workers.
> 
> And along the way, they have destroyed the manufacturing base in North America.
> 
> There are lots of smart people in the world. If the world leaders were serious about affecting change, they could tap their resourceful minds.
> .



This reminds me something that a French economist wrote 100 years ago. "The candlemakers are a very important class in FrAnce. The livelihood of 100 thousand people depends on the industry. And yet we have to face unfair competition, low cost production and market dumping from the sun. It's got to stop."

That was a joke. But sags is serious. Let me guess... Trade unionist?


----------



## Nelley

Mordko: Your "protectionism" comment is the B/S. In Canada, we have giant sectors and levels of government jobs totally insulated from any sort of international competition at all-it is funded by DEBT because taxes cannot foot the bill. You promote destroying the private sector while continuing the growth in bloat of the government sector as if this is somehow logical and equitable and sustainable-it aint.


----------



## sags

Right............google "child labor" and see what corporate names pop up.

Here is a link to a UNICEF story on some of them. It is estimated that 260 million children are working in slave like factories.

But not to worry. There are enough "factory owners" around to claim there is a burgeoning "middle class".

https://labs.theguardian.com/unicef-child-labour/


----------



## sags

The Sanders and Trump campaigns revealed the amount of anger there is among the population towards economic disparity.

There have been demonstrations and protest movements before, but never at this level of tens of millions of voters.

Past protest votes, if they could be called that, largely concerned military affairs, such as the Vietnam War.

The voters now have the tools on the internet to organize, and they are learning how to use them effectively to mobilize.

Future national protest movements may not be quelled as easily as those in the past, such as the "Occupy" movement.

And though it is disturbing to say, when police arrive they are encountering a more hostile and dangerous situation than in the past.

If changes aren't made and soon...........the turmoil could escalate very quickly.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Since no one knows what the climate will do in the future, how is it possible to publish "false information"?
> 
> And, you still haven't addressed the most important point. Should the government be allowed to legally prevent you from having a different opinion than they do?
> 
> Yes, or no?


It is possible to knowingly publish false information, even in the name of science. The right to misrepresent information to customers is not protected by the first amendment so free speech is not absolute. For example, an automaker such as VW is not allowed to publish false emission and mileage data about their diesel vehicles. There are numerous other limits to free speech that apply in both the United States and Canada. Whether or not I agree with them is irrelevant. 

As I said, I still believe that the California Senate bill was not sufficiently considered. The Democrats were right to sideline it. 

Trump may be a *protectionist*, but he is hardly a protector of free speech. The thin skinned entertainer has a history of *harassment suits* against individuals and organizations that criticize him. As a presidential nominee he is limited in who he can sue now so he has his wife going after uncooperative news organizations. *Melania Trump recently sent legal letters to ten news organizations*. Trump is more interested in his own power and ego than he is in the personal freedoms of his countrymen.


----------



## sags

I find it insidious that news organizations "pick up" a story from other news sources and repeat it as fact without any due diligence on their part.

Which is why I appreciate that some don't report every conspiracy story on the internet, as some people apparently want them to do.

Trump loves the media when he can manipulate it for his own purpose. He hates them when they report something critical about him.

It is hard to find a news website anymore that doesn't have a mass of lame videos on weird stuff all over the page.

Click the wrong button on the website and you are watching a video about movie stars without makeup.

Give me back the old days of no video, static ads and just the text.....................please.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Mordko: Your "protectionism" comment is the B/S. In Canada, we have giant sectors and levels of government jobs totally insulated from any sort of international competition at all-it is funded by DEBT because taxes cannot foot the bill. You promote destroying the private sector while continuing the growth in bloat of the government sector as if this is somehow logical and equitable and sustainable-it aint.


i promote destroying private sector? Can I have whatever you are drinking? 

Canada's prosperity depends on trade. And yes, there is still a crazy amount of protectionism. Even between provinces. Because,as sags claims, Quebec wouldn't want to exploit child labourers in Ontario.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> Right............google "child labor" and see what corporate names pop up.
> 
> Here is a link to a UNICEF story on some of them. It is estimated that 260 million children are working in slave like factories.
> 
> But not to worry. There are enough "factory owners" around to claim there is a burgeoning "middle class".
> 
> https://labs.theguardian.com/unicef-child-labour/


And the best way to help is to stop buying products from these countries. Got it.


----------



## new dog

There is no trusted media source today whether it be mainstream or alternative. I think CNN is probably on par with Alex Jones when it comes to reporting the news. Some here would be shocked I said Alex Jones but that is how far down CNN and many other mainstream news sources have fallen. So one could get their information from either source and it would be just as good.

Sags I completely agree with your free trade stance it has meant millions of job losses and replaced by debt. I can't see how debt is going to help us in the future and now we have low paying jobs or no jobs going forward. Unions though do have some blame in all of this because they went to far and held consumers, companies and governments hostages in their quest for more and more money and benefits. They were their own worst enemy.

On health I do believe it is important that the president can do the job but I have no clue what the health of either candidate really is but it is a concern. I am more concerned with what looks like a shutting down of negative reporting towards Hillary by the mainstream media. Also one has to be concerned about all these coincidences that seem to keep happening whether it is people being fired, reports cut short, deleted or even deaths that seem to follow Hillary around


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Mordko: Your "protectionism" comment is the B/S. In Canada, we have giant sectors and levels of government jobs totally insulated from any sort of international competition at all-it is funded by DEBT because taxes cannot foot the bill. You promote destroying the private sector while continuing the growth in bloat of the government sector as if this is somehow logical and equitable and sustainable-it aint.


Apparently, to help private industry, we want to be less like Singapore, Hong Kong or Germany and more like Pakistan and Sudan. Interesting http://www.iccwbo.org/global-influence/g20/reports-and-products/open-markets-index/


----------



## Shanline

In order to help industry Sudan would be much better I think. Carry on!


----------



## Shanline

mordko said:


> Apparently, to help private industry, we want to be less like Singapore, Hong Kong or Germany and more like Pakistan and Sudan. Interesting http://www.iccwbo.org/global-influence/g20/reports-and-products/open-markets-index/


Just read the article for your website "Open Markets Index". Great guidance and the info is superb.


----------



## BoringInvestor

bass player said:


> That's just another baseless claim from the left.
> 
> The real threat is that Hillary will gut the Constitution. She has already promised to do anything she can to get rid of the 2nd Amendment, and after that, free speech will be under attack...as it always is with the left. For those who are unaware, California Democrats recently tried to pass a bill so that climate "deniers" could be prosecuted. It would be illegal to have a different opinion than the government. And, of course, the always compliant media completely ignored this.
> 
> There is no reason not to assume that the federal Democrats would also do the same and make it illegal to have a different opinion than the government. Those who support Hillary will vote away their right to free speech.


Hey, don't forget the conversation we started - about health claims. 
I'm still interested to dive into those in detail if you're game.


----------



## Nelley

Today's LA Times poll has Trump up by 2.8%


----------



## BoringInvestor

Nelley said:


> Today's LA Times poll has Trump up by 2.8%


I'm glad you referenced that poll. Leads perfectly to this article: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-leave-the-la-times-poll-alone/.


----------



## Nelley

Reads like an unbiased analysis-LOL.


----------



## BoringInvestor

Nelley said:


> Reads like an unbiased analysis-LOL.


What bias do you see in it?
Can you be specific?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Today's LA Times poll has Trump up by 2.8%


Pick those cherries!


----------



## sags

Trump was softening his stance on immigration on the weekend, visited with the President of Mexico, and made a speech that night hardening his stance on immigration.

Trump says the issue of who would pay the wall wasn't discussed with the Mexican President. 

The President says he told Trump to his face that Mexico isn't paying for any wall.

The tone of his speech confirms that Trump was told and didn't like it.

Since then, Trump has changed his stance at every public event. 

His Latino advisors were thrilled he went to Mexico and then quit after his speech.......within the few hours of each event.

As I posted on page 1.....third posting, ........_Trump is a chameleon
_
Up, down, all around...Trump shows exactly why he would be unfit to be President of the US.

The President of the US is in possession of the launch codes for nuclear weapons. 

Heaven forbid they should ever be in Trump's hands.


----------



## Nelley

Preb: Trump should hire you as a spokesman.


----------



## new dog

Preb_B said:


> I believe that all people that vote for Trump, should have their vote rejected - they are simply not able to think properly. I hope that people are smart enough NOT to vote for that man, in my opinion he is crazy, almost insane. He is an american terrorist, refusing to let people go to US (foreigners especially!) and thereby limiting the knowledge that the US citizen could gain from foreigners.. KICK TRUMP OUT OF THE ELECTION!!!!!!


Everything you say applies to someone voting for Hillary. It is so left to ignore everything she does, she is even less fit then Trump to bepresident, a vote for Hillary is a vote for relentless corruption.


----------



## BoringInvestor

Nelley said:


> Preb: Trump should hire you as a spokesman.


Hey Nelley, referring back to my last comment, what bias did you see in the article?


----------



## sags

new dog said:


> Everything you say applies to someone voting for Hillary. It is so left to ignore everything she does, she is even less fit then Trump to bepresident, a vote for Hillary is a vote for relentless corruption.


I would feel much more comfortable with Clinton breaking some rules to wring extra cash out of billionaires for the Clinton Foundation to do charity work, than to have Donald Trump with the nuclear launch codes in his possession.

It has never been shown that anything Clinton did threatened US national security. Trump IS a threat to national security.

I shudder to think that Trump may receive national security briefings as a Presidential candidate.

Fortunately, they aren't at the same security level as what President Obama receives daily.


----------



## Nelley

I would definitely feel more comfortable with Trump having the launch codes than Sags having the launch codes.


----------



## olivaw

Low level online volunteers for the Trump campaign are required to agree to a Non Disclosure Agreement that prohibits them from disparaging Trump or his family members for the rest of their lives. 

Clinton volunteers do not need to agree to any NDA. 

I wonder how many hapless Trump volunteers will be sued for criticizing him at some future date. 



> During the term of your service and at all times thereafter you hereby promise and agree not to demean or disparage publicly the Company, Mr. Trump, any Trump Company, any Family Member, or any Family Member Company or any asset any of the foregoing own, or product or service any of the foregoing offer, in each case by or in any of the Restricted Means and Contexts and to prevent your employees from doing so.





> This agreement will survive the expiration, cancellation or termination of any employment or independent contractor relationship that you may have with the Company or with any individual, entity, partnership, trust or organization that the Company has engaged.


https://talk.donaldjtrump.com/User/NonDisclosureAgreement


----------



## sags

Remember Donald..........when all those other Republicans were so nice to you in the primary debates ?

Well it is Hillary's turn now, and it won't be nice..........like it was before.

I can't wait for the debates. It will be epic. I hope Clinton comes out swinging and needles Trump all night.

Trump is always about 1 degree from bursting into a red faced string of profanities and maybe throwing something.

She should start off the debate with.........you know, little Donald with those tiny hands,........and just look at her hands and smirk.

That ought to light the fuse.............


----------



## Mukhang pera

olivaw said:


> Clinton volunteers do not need to agree to any NDA.
> 
> I wonder how many hapless Trump volunteers will be sued for criticizing him at some future date.


Clinton no doubt recognizes the futility of procuring such a document. Trump himself is probably unaware of what volunteers are being asked to sign and has not much interest in it. He has bigger fish to fry.

A "volunteer" is usually someone not paid. They donate their time. So what would be the consideration to support the contract? None. So the "No Disparagement" agreement is a thing writ in water. A nudum pactum. A fortiori, even if supported by consideration, the term faces significant obstacles to enforceability. I would liken it to just about any garden variety restrictive covenant. Canadian and U.S. courts have consistently held that such covenants must be reasonable as to time and reasonable as to place. Eg., you work as a baker for "Kits Bakery" in the Kitsilano district of Vancouver. As a term of your employment you agree not to quit and set up your own bakery in competition. The term will probably be enforceable if it prohibits you from setting up shop anywhere in Kits for 2 years after leaving the employer. It will probably be held unreasonable and fail if it seeks to prohibit operating a bakery anywhere in British Columbia for a period of 10 years. Here, the Trump deal seeks to bind for life. A bit of a long reach. And just how, pray tell, does one go about preventing one's employees from berating Trump? Kinda' silly to even write such a thing. And all of that leaves aside the nice question of what can fairly be said to be caught by the words "disparage" and "demean"? I would submit that the clause could hope to do no more than extract a promise not to engage in libel or slander. The law of defamation has that covered without having to resort to a written agreement. 

Then there is the difficult question of privity of contract. How can the laundry list of Trump-associated persons and entities fairly be said to be parties to any agreement? What consideration have they supplied? So, I suspect that any volunteer purporting to agree to such nonsense fully recognizes the reality that those proferring such tripe for signature can be told to roll it up, dip it in Vaseline, and shove it where the moon don't shine.


----------



## Nelley

Discussing this trivia on Trump while just today it came out that during the 3.5 hour interview with the FBI Crooked Hillary repeatedly blamed her mishandling of classified information and/or inability to remember said mishandling on her concussion and subsequent mental issues-so when it can be used as an excuse she is mentally ill but when it isn't needed as an excuse for misdeeds she is perfectly healthy.


----------



## new dog

I have to admit olivaw that if I had to agree to that then I would not be a volunteer.


----------



## olivaw

Mukhang, I agree that it is a boilerplate NDA with a few bonus clauses but I am not so sure that it is unenforceable. Trump and his family are not shy about using lawsuits and the threat of lawsuits to their advantage. A New York Court may rule that there was no consideration but how many low level volunteers would have the resources to respond to a legal threat?

High level volunteers would expect future compensation.

Dogcom is right, the best defense is to refuse to sign a contract such as this.


----------



## andrewf

All they need to do is pay them $1 in consideration. I wonder if 'in kind' payment would also count.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> Discussing this trivia on Trump while just today it came out that during the 3.5 hour interview with the FBI Crooked Hillary repeatedly blamed her mishandling of classified information and/or inability to remember said mishandling on her concussion and subsequent mental issues-so when it can be used as an excuse she is mentally ill but when it isn't needed as an excuse for misdeeds she is perfectly healthy.


So now the FBI now plays politics by releasing information damaging to Hillary on the Friday of a long weekend. This is routinely done by politicians in an attempt to bury the news and hope that it's forgotten over the weekend, but for the FBI to stoop that low shows who is really in charge.

The real issue, which of course will be conveniently overlooked, is that Hillary has now finally admitted that her concussion/brain injury did affect her ability to perform her job as required, and that national security was put at risk due to her health.


----------



## bass player

The New York Post has reported that Hillary sent classified emails from her private server even after leaving the state department. 

It has also come to light that taxpayer money was used to pay salaries of Clinton Foundation staff.

But, as usual, the majority of the media continues to cover for Hillary by mostly ignoring these facts.


----------



## olivaw

Here's a video of Trump dancing at a Detroit church service. Some commenters said he looked uncomfortable but I think he looked fine. If we'd seen more of this and less of Donald the clown over the past few months it might be an entirely different race. (I'm not kidding or being sarcastic).





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA0sccPt7i4


----------



## Nelley

Olivaw: Nobody has ever gotten this close to being POTUS while being violently opposed by almost the entire MSM and establishment-yet the sheep still say he is a clown and Hillary is not a criminal-the only good news is that every day more of the stupid sheep are waking up.


----------



## sags

Given the breakdown of support for both parties by geography and education, it would appear the "sheep" are more highly educated urban dwellers.

More highly educated and "stupid" don't usually dwell in the same house.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> More highly educated and "stupid" don't usually dwell in the same house.


Sure they do...universities and colleges are full of highly educated fools employed as teachers and professors who preach flawed progressive ideology on a daily basis.


----------



## olivaw

So a lack of education confers wisdom? 

Good to know.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> So a lack of education confers wisdom?
> 
> Good to know.


That's not what I said. I find it hard to believe that you were never taught, or were never able to tell the difference between wisdom and education.


----------



## Eder

Most education happens outside of institutions...inferring that 6 years in university denotes intelligence is ridiculous.


----------



## mordko

Social "sciences" departments are particularly good at spreading the stupidity. That's where you typically get the likes Professor Anthony Hall, Professor Kee Dewdney and some of the most remarkable idiots this land has ever had to bear.


----------



## sags

Intelligence without knowledge is an orphaned gift, and universities and colleges provide a bridge to the accumulation of past knowledge.


----------



## sags

I will give Trump credit for one thing though.

I agree with him about ripping up the one sided free trade deals.

Several years ago, Stephen Harper extolled the virtues of free trade with China and took a photo opp with a Canadian export to China..........lobsters.

Yesterday, PM Trudeau extolled the virtues of free trade with China and took a photo opp with a Canadian export to China..........lobsters.

Alibaba CEO Jack Ma was involved in both photo opps.

Glad to see we are making progress on the exporting part of free trade.

Maybe we could fix the trade deficit by rounding up more lobsters.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> Maybe we could fix the trade deficit by rounding up more lobsters.


Ha - you made me snort my milk.


----------



## andrewf

sags, you don't seem to understand trade. You don't make Canadians better off by making foreign goods more expensive.


----------



## Nelley

Andrewf: Tariffs are TAXES. Somehow this is a difficult concept for the stupid sheep to grasp. All "free trade" means is no taxes on imported/exported goods. Taxes on everything else-income, consumption-you name it-this is good because we need to grow the guv to the sky-but taxes on imported/exported goods will destroy the universe and everything in it.


----------



## andrewf

Tariffs are indeed taxes. It used to be the main way governments financed themselves. But not all trade barriers are tariffs. Taxes are not a good thing in and of themselves. Societies should decide first how much and on what they want to spend through government, then build a tax system to meet that funding requirement in the most efficient/least economically & socially harmful way possible. Tariffs are a poor form of taxation compared to the alternatives as they create a lot of economic distortions.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> Taxes are not a good thing in and of themselves. Societies should decide first how much and on what they want to spend through government, then build a tax system to meet that funding requirement in the most efficient/least economically & socially harmful way possible.



in the 19th century we had the Fathers of Confederation to figure all that out. In the 20th century we had uprights like dief the chief & lester bee pearson to carry on.

somehow after that things went downhill & the debt snowball kept rolling bigger.

lately i've received 2 sincere invites from my MP to take part in riding discussions on 2 big issues that are going to cost the federal gummint plenty. One is the defence plan & military spending. The other is the environment & climate change. 

i can't remember when MPs routinely reached out to their constituents to ask for their input, let alone provided interactive websites where citizens could say something.

i have enormous respect for my MP. I get the impression he's sincere about wanting to hear from the riding.

.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> sags, you don't seem to understand trade. You don't make Canadians better off by making foreign goods more expensive.


Foreign goods cheaper..........great, but the concept lacks a key component.

What will replace the lost jobs ? Thus far.......greatly expanded public sectors, part time service work and social benefits.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> sags, you don't seem to understand trade. You don't make Canadians better off by making foreign goods more expensive.


Cheaper foreign goods for loss of jobs..........also doesn't make Canadians better off.

Trade........yes. Unfair trade such as it is...........no.

We lowered our tariffs..........China didn't.

We have an open market. China doesn't.

If a company wants to sell their products in China, they have to build them there.......(see GM plants in China.)

Interesting that just yesterday, PM Trudeau got a deal with Alibaba which will "introduce" Canadian products to the Chinese markets.

A positive step forward for Canadian manufacturers, but free trade has been in place for decades and we are just now signing deals to introduce Canadian products to the Chinese market ? 

It is been a long time coming.

Trudeau manages to get things done that a previous line of governments failed to do.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...mpanies-further-access-to-chinese-market.html


----------



## Nelley

"Tariffs are a poor form of taxation compared to the alternatives as they create a lot of economic distortions."-Really? Tariffs are inferior to income tax-lets see your proof. Also, we are all aware that the richest and most powerful want ZERO tariffs-so don't just quote some B/S think tank serving the global super rich.


----------



## humble_pie

nelley here's one for your nightmares

hillary is going to make justin buy 115 made-in-USA Lockheed supersonic F-35 fighter jets at a cost of $50 million each

.


----------



## Nelley

Crooked Hillary is not a nightmare yet-the other day a reporter at CBS news tweeted that a source inside her camp said she is considering dropping out-the tweet got scrubbed.


----------



## new dog

I have to agree with sags we need similar open trade, labor laws, worker rights and appropriate pay to accept free trade agreements. Otherwise we are just giving away jobs for debt and cheaper goods as a return.


----------



## Nelley

New Dog: You have to understand that was never the plan-a true fair trade agreement would have started with the first world nations-maybe a population of 600 million consumers (guesstimate)-the plan was always to shift manufacturing to the cheaper third world and gut these economies. The second phase of the plan is the mass importation of culturally backward migrants. So far the plan is on schedule-anyone actually noticing this is a bad person by definition.


----------



## new dog

I think your right and it was supported by or pushed by corporations so they could take advantage of cheap labour and poor laws. So those here who support free trade are just supporting something that is bad for the country but cannot see it. Free trade is necessary to bring down the demands of over greedy union contracts or keep it in check but only if we are playing on an even playing field. Otherwise we don't just keep them in check but eliminate them and their jobs and also the trickle down jobs.

Here is a sample of TPP that would have us hiring foreign workers.

https://thinkpol.ca/2015/11/05/canada-will-be-forced-to-accept-unlimited-number-of-tfws-under-tpp/

This is one part I am sure Hillary is very happy about when she gets the chance to sign it.


----------



## olivaw

Dogcom, 

The clause you linked is specifically about accredited technical and professional workers. Those are the workers most likely to keep us globally competitive. Other countries that form the TPP would also be required to accept Canadian accreditation. We want a net influx of brainpower to Canada. 

Here's an example of a bizarre barrier that we place in the way of qualified and intelligent immigrants. 
- A young man that we know is a qualified dentist. 
- He immigrated to Canada and was granted immediate permanent residency status. (PR). 
- He can't practice until he takes three exams. 
- The exams are held only once every six months and all at the same time. 
- Therefore he has to write one exam, wait six months, write the next, then wait another six months to write the last. 
- In his case the delay is 16 months. That's sixteen months in which a qualified dentist works in this country as a receptionist. 

Dogcom, I am not saying that the clause in the TPP is perfect. We have to be able to certify foreign professionals to practice in Canada but we also have to make our system more reasonable. 

The risk of a race to the bottom is more of a problem with unskilled workers.


----------



## indexxx

olivaw said:


> Dogcom,
> 
> The clause you linked is specifically about accredited technical and professional workers. Those are the workers most likely to keep us globally competitive. Other countries that form the TPP would also be required to accept Canadian accreditation. We want a net influx of brainpower to Canada.
> 
> Here's an example of a bizarre barrier that we place in the way of qualified and intelligent immigrants.
> - A young man that we know is a qualified dentist.
> - He immigrated to Canada and was granted immediate permanent residency status. (PR).
> - He can't practice until he takes three exams.
> - The exams are held only once every six months and all at the same time.
> - Therefore he has to write one exam, wait six months, write the next, then wait another six months to write the last.
> - In his case the delay is 16 months. That's sixteen months in which a qualified dentist works in this country as a receptionist.
> 
> Dogcom, I am not saying that the clause in the TPP is perfect. We have to be able to certify foreign professionals to practice in Canada but we also have to make our system more reasonable.
> 
> The risk of a race to the bottom is more of a problem with unskilled workers.


One of my new employees has a similar situation. He is a licensed physician from Afghanistan and is currently delivering pizza for us while he waits for his Canadian exams.


----------



## heyjude

indexxx said:


> One of my new employees has a similar situation. He is a licensed physician from Afghanistan and is currently delivering pizza for us while he waits for his Canadian exams.


Hi. I'm an immigrant physician, a foreign medical graduate. I can't comment on the timing of these exams, but I can say that Afghan medical training is not likely to adequately prepare a physician to work effectively in Canada. This doctor us going to need additional supervised training, including cultural skills. Like I had.


----------



## new dog

Not putting any form of testing or certification as a condition would see many unskilled foreign workers taking up skilled positions says the Canadian Workers Advocacy Group. They also say skilled workers wages will plunge and we could see unskilled workers doing skilled trades or engineering work putting Canadian lives at risk. So there is much more to it then just bringing over a few skilled foreign workers olivaw.


----------



## Nelley

New Dog: According to the Social Justice Warriors it makes perfect sense for New Dog's surgeon to receive his important training in the wilds of Afghanistan-in fact if anyone even implies there is a difference between U of T and Kabul State U he/she is politically incorrect.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> New Dog: According to the Social Justice Warriors it makes perfect sense for New Dog's surgeon to receive his important training in the wilds of Afghanistan-in fact if anyone even implies there is a difference between U of T and Kabul State U he/she is politically incorrect.


How about Oxford? Would that be OK? Because surgeons who graduated from Oxford aren't allowed to work in Canada either.


----------



## Nelley

I fact, rather than bring in our doctors from Afghanistan, a better and cheaper idea would be to send our sick patients to Afghanistan for surgery. Olivaw could have her important treatment done at Kabul State.


----------



## Nelley

Yes I think Oxford is different than Kabul State. Yes the medical setup here is a big mess that it would be nice for someone to fix but bringing in doctors from Afghanistan or Botswana is not the way to improve our system.


----------



## MSLS

*Interesting article*

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/tops...esident/ar-AAiv1yr?li=AAggFp5&ocid=spartanntp


----------



## TomB19

Interesting.

Apparently, Republicans have an investigation on the FBI handling of the email scandal that could report back, just prior to the election. If true, that might cause a tremor in the markets.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> I fact, rather than bring in our doctors from Afghanistan, a better and cheaper idea would be to send our sick patients to Afghanistan for surgery. Olivaw could have her important treatment done at Kabul State.


We were talking about TPP. Signatories are Australia Brunei Canada Chile Japan Malaysia Mexico New Zealand Peru Singapore United States and Vietnam. Your little concern about Afghanistan is off-topic.


----------



## Mukhang pera

MSLS said:


> http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/tops...esident/ar-AAiv1yr?li=AAggFp5&ocid=spartanntp


Indeed.

And the handle - MSLS - Master of Science in Library Science, or something more obscure?


----------



## twa2w

HOW TO START EACH DAY WITH A POSITIVE OUTLOOK

1. Open a new file in your computer. 

2. Name it "Hillary Rodham Clinton"

3. Send it to the trash.

4. Empty the trash.

5. Your PC will ask you, "Do you really want to get rid of "Hillary Rodham Clinton?"

6. Firmly Click "Yes."

7. Feel better.


----------



## Nelley

Watch this-the sick criminal's cough is getting worse every week-the whole desperate attempt to prop up this corrupt puppet is taking on a real Weekend at Bernies theme-
http://nypost.com/2016/09/05/hillary-blames-coughing-fit-on-trump-allergy-at-rally/


----------



## bass player

What will happen if she shows up at a live debate and can't stop coughing or has another unexplained "bathroom break" that delays her appearance? Will they conveniently cut to a commercial break every time she coughs?


----------



## indexxx

I wouldn't put much credence in a tabloid- the Post is essential the Enquirer in a suit.


"The Post has been criticized since the beginning of Murdoch's ownership for sensationalism, blatant advocacy, and conservative bias. In 1980, the _Columbia Journalism Review_ stated "the New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem. It is a social problem – a force for evil."

Perhaps the most serious allegation against the Post is that it is willing to contort its news coverage to suit Murdoch's business needs."


----------



## bass player

indexxx said:


> I wouldn't put much credence in a tabloid- the Post is essential the Enquirer in a suit.


So what? Unless they created that video out of thin air, the evidence speaks for itself. She's an ill looking, overweight, late 60's woman with a persistent cough that seems to be getting worse...


----------



## new dog

I suppose your ridiculous conspiracy theory about Hillary's health is coming true bass. Mainstream media did their best to fool everyone that can only listen to the mainstream media.

Another thing has anyone noticed that lack of respect Obama is receiving in Asia. First China doesn't bring up the stairs to the plane and then they argue with Chinese officials on the ground. Next you have the Philippine president calls Obama a son of a *****. I am sure the US doesn't like that the Philippine president is rounding up and executing drug pushers.

http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/09/duterte-obama-extrajudicial-killings/498710/

Lastly we have Turkey turning its nose to the west and move closer to Russia.

Hillary is a continuation of Obama and will not be getting any more respect. Forum buddies here seem to think Obama is great and the world loves him but clearly this is not true.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Next you have the Philippine president calls Obama a son of a *****.
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/09/duterte-obama-extrajudicial-killings/498710/




dogcom one could easily cobble three disparate countries together at any point in history since WW II & call their behaviour disrespect for the US of A, but i don't see how cobbling together china, the philippines & turkey in 2016 is making any kind of legitimate case.

plus the philippine strongman didn't call obama a putang ina. Perhaps you could read your linked article again? duterte said *if.* It was a warning. Evidently duterte is calling everybody including the pope a putang ina, it appears to be his special term of endearment.

it'll wreak havoc on tourism though.

.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> I suppose your ridiculous conspiracy theory about Hillary's health is coming true bass. Mainstream media did their best to fool everyone that can only listen to the mainstream media.
> 
> Another thing has anyone noticed that lack of respect Obama is receiving in Asia. First China doesn't bring up the stairs to the plane and then they argue with Chinese officials on the ground. Next you have the Philippine president calls Obama a son of a *****. I am sure the US doesn't like that the Philippine president is rounding up and executing drug pushers.
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/09/duterte-obama-extrajudicial-killings/498710/
> 
> Lastly we have Turkey turning its nose to the west and move closer to Russia.
> 
> Hillary is a continuation of Obama and will not be getting any more respect. Forum buddies here seem to think Obama is great and the world loves him but clearly this is not true.


Everything a Democrat breaks the law or does something inappropriate it's written off as a conspiracy theory. You even see it here...a video of Hillary with a bad cough is a somehow a "conspiracy". Hillary deletes 33,000 emails...it's a conspiracy. Hillary lies to the FBI...it's just a conspiracy. Hillary lies about Benghazi...it's just another right wing conspiracy. How can you reason with people who have such damaged mental facilities?

Obama has been a complete failure and has lost all respect on the world stage. He is treated like that because no one respects him. A stronger president would not have stood for it, but Obama took his licks like the weakling he really is.


----------



## new dog

This disrespect except for Turkey has gone on in the last week and Turkey was in the last few months. The Philippines is sick of corruption and drugs and the new president has overwhelming support for what he is doing. The US of course has lost another puppet or maybe it is time for the new Philippine president to have an accident of some kind.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> This disrespect except for Turkey has gone on in the last week and Turkey was in the last few months.



the problems with turkey are several years old in that the country has failed to mount a cohesive foreign policy for many years & lately has even failed to mount a cohesive domestic policy.

as it flails around in growing isolation, turkey might imagine it has un ami du jour in russia but no doubt vladimir putin has other views. Putin would automatically & opportunistically encourage any hesitating NATO member to turn against the US.


.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> I agree with him about ripping up the one sided free trade deals.


For sure.

I can't help but think, free trade is only good for large corporations. ... just the sort of corporations that own the political parties.

These free trade deals go against the interest of the vast majority of Canadians and Americans.

Worse than free trade, however, are the "guest workers" that are allowed in Canada. The major banks are full of non-Canadians doing jobs in non-public facing roles. I worked for one of the majors and it was disheartening to see the Canadians leave and the Indians take those jobs. I can choke down the idea of off-shoring but laying off Canadians and replacing them with people from India, brought in to work three year terms (just under, so they can't immigrate), is straight up traitorist. That happened to me. I started another job the next day but suffice to say it is a sad day for Canadians to watch this happen.

I hate to believe in conspiracies but I can't help but wonder if a small part of what is going on in both Canada and the US is the intentional creation of an underclass. AKA: third world economics.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Duterte didn't call Obama a son of a *****. He called him a putang ina, son of a wh#re. As there is some controversy over who exactly Obama's father is, he may be factually correct.


----------



## none

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Duterte didn't call Obama a son of a *****. He called him a putang ina, son of a wh#re. As there is some controversy over who exactly Obama's father is, he may be factually correct.


**** you Rusty. If anyone comes from a poor choice of spit or swallow (and chose #3) it's you. Go suck a bag of dicks.


----------



## mordko

Interesting that when Turkey, China or Iran humiliate US, Obama's administration just grovels. When Phillipins did it, Obama retaliated. What is the difference? Phillipins is the only actual ally in this list.


----------



## new dog

CNN poll shows Trump in the lead and if it comes from CNN then you know Clinton is in trouble. CNN will need to change the way it polls again so that Clinton can lead again.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...ads-clinton-nationally-by-two-points-n2214263

The funny part is the poll says that Clinton beats Trump on immigration and foreign policy which has me thinking the sheeple really haven't quite woken up yet. 

On Turkey their tourism had suffered badly and this is one of the reasons they are warming up to Russia. Turkey can also begin the pipeline again by warming to Russia. Whether it likes Russia or not it needs the trade with Russia much like we do with the US.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Just goes to show, telling the truth is almost always a bad idea especially in politics. Maybe that's why it happens so seldom.


----------



## bass player

The Clinton camp must be dreading the upcoming debate...their big fear is leaving Hillary alone on stage with no one to intervene when she gets confused or has another coughing fit that she can't stop. Can she even stand for an hour or two without grabbing something for support?


----------



## BoringInvestor

This thread is bananas. I'm out.


----------



## sags

It would be startling if Trump were to win the election, but after watching Michael Moore's latest film on some of the differences between the US and other countries around the world (Italy, France, Finland) in education, diets, vacation time and work benefits...........it shouldn't be surprising given how little Americans expect of their government.

The most obvious difference is in spending tax dollars, where the US spends half of their budget on the military, while other countries spend the money on things like education and social benefits. The results are rather obvious as the US has the strongest military in the world while Finland has the top ranked education system.

To be fair to the US, they do act as the world's policeman and other countries enjoy their freedom because "big brother" is heavily armed.

If Trump wins the election there may be a resurgence in the popularity of the back yard bomb shelter, or wealthy Americans may decide it is a good time to move somewhere else.

The CNN poll is an interesting turn of events, but Clinton holds a substantial lead in electoral votes.


----------



## Nelley

Sags: You can't even keep your MSM B/S straight-yesterday Trump was bad man Putin's buddy-today Trump is the reason for "backyard bomb shelters" when Russia lets the nukes fly.


----------



## olivaw

The CNN/ORC poll is an outlier. Right wing media may be all over it, but the poll was just one of dozens of new polls. The polling average still has Clinton leading by 3 or 4% and ahead on electoral college predictions. 

Fivethirtyeight discussed the polling data in their *Sept 6th weekly election update*.


----------



## olivaw

Trump's hypothetical relationship with Putin, mentioned above, would be interesting and disturbing. Putin is a chess player. He'd have his surrogates use flattery and insult to manipulate the thin-skinned Trump to meet Russia's strategic goals. 

Nobody knows what Trump would do at 4:00 AM when Trump is fuming over perceived insults. Right now, all he can do is send childish tweets. What happens when he has control of the most powerful military in the world? Who will he end up bombing .. ... Iran, Turkey, Mexico, .... Canada? 

So yeah, bomb shelters would be a good idea if a content-free narcissist like Trump were to become commander in chief.


----------



## sags

When I think of Trump having access to the nuclear codes, I can't help but think of this..........

View attachment 11466


----------



## sags

Trump is delusional. He thinks he can shmooze other government leaders to get what he wants.

It was said that when Putin learned of Angela Merkel's fear of dogs, he had a big one in the room when she came to visit.

Trump said he would have fired up Air Force One and left the G20 immediately if there was no "red carpet" there for him.

How would he have reacted to the Prime Minister of the Philippines remarks ?

Now China knows all they have to do to handle Trump is hurt his feelings............LOL..........


----------



## sags

Trump's military adviser was interviewed today on CNN.

His answers to the changing immigration policy..........."it's complicated".

His answers to China's activities in the South China Sea........"it's complicated".

No kidding.......it's complicated. Trump's rhetoric isn't worth a pinch of salt in the real world.

He has no solutions. He doesn't even understand the problems.


----------



## Nelley

Sags: Don't worry-maybe your dream will come true and Goldman Sachs will win the election-then they can wheel out their crooked, sick, demented puppet and she can tell us how global warming will kill us in our sleep.


----------



## bass player

The way Hillary looks, maybe this will turn into a real live "Weekend At Bernie's" where the handlers bring out Hillary's cadaver out of the cooler every few days for a public appearance. Anyone who dares to question if she's still alive will be accused of being a sexist or right wing extremist. :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## olivaw

Whenever the Trump campaign trots out the tired old Hillary health hoax, you know they are trying to deflect another Trump scandal. This time it is the $25,000 contribution by Trump to Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi in exchange for cancelling the fraud investigation against Trump University. Trump tried to hide it in the Trump Foundation *but got caught*.


----------



## sags

Oh oh...........Crooked Donald.


----------



## bass player

Removal of classified information is a felony under Title 18 U.S. Code 793 f.

Therefore, deleting classified emails is a felony. Smashing mobile devices if they contain classified emails is also a felony. Hillary and/or her aides also did that. Even CNN admitted it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SZqiXDfHnI


----------



## mordko

Can someone please explain why a left wing media outlet decided to report on Hillary's health issues all of a sudden?

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...-struggles-fight-back-coughing-attack-n643026


----------



## bass player

She's perfectly healthy!! :biggrin: :biggrin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDYi6u58O7o


----------



## new dog

Apparently she isn't happy with NBC coverage of her coughing.

http://truthfeed.com/delusional-tyr...news-for-pointing-out-her-coughing-fit/21853/


----------



## Nelley

Mordko: The rumour (just a rumour) is that Crooked Hillary is considering dropping out of the race-if the demented criminal drops out and blames it on health problems the already low credibility of the MSM ( which has labelled everyone that noted her obvious health problems crazy) will take another dive. Just a possible reason-who knows?


----------



## bass player

It's time for sags to chime in with another Trump comment in a pathetic attempt to deflect attention away from Hillary... :biggrin:


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Apparently she isn't happy with NBC coverage of her coughing.
> 
> http://truthfeed.com/delusional-tyr...news-for-pointing-out-her-coughing-fit/21853/


Be honest dogcom. Do you really believe the conspiracy theory about Hillary's health? 

Trump continues to hide his tax returns. Trump university is in Court for fraud. He makes volunteers sign a lifetime oath. He doesn't pay little guys who do work for him. He used racial discrimination. He gave money to an AG in return for not being investigated. His doctor's note looks like it was written by an eight year old. His doctor looks like the 60s were not kind to him. Educated voters don't like him. Catholic voters don't like him. Minority voters don't like him. His campaign is in disarray. His fundraising totals are terrible. Republicans have rejected him. People question his mental competence. 

Any chance that Trump is floating unsubstantiated rumours about Trump's health because he can't defend his own record?


----------



## mordko

Can we find the middle ground? 

Hillary isn't pulling out and, as long as she lives and is mobile, she is going to win. Not on merit but because she is running against a slightly deranged maverick who is not a Republican but took over the party because of internal divisions.

She is also a bit of a crook, a proven liar (comes with the name), has significant health issues and a dismal record in government.


----------



## new dog

I didn't really care about it until they starting covering it up. In fact if she came right out and said how she really felt and it was covered it may not even be a story.


----------



## olivaw

Covered up? 
Clinton has a real health letter. Trump does not.
She released her taxes. Trump did not.
The Clinton Foundation's records are open. The Trump foundations records are not.
Clinton has a public service record. Trump does not.
Clinton was found to be the second most honest politician. Trump the least honest.

If you're looking for a cover up you are looking in the wrong place.


----------



## andrewf

Hillary has a cough. She'll probably be dead by the end of next week.


----------



## mordko

She has more than a cough. She also faints every now and again. And whatever she says can't be trusted. But I hope she lives till November.


----------



## indexxx

Yup. Every time I've had a cold or an allergy or a sore throat it's meant I was about to keel over and die. It's been true every time...


----------



## Nelley

Indexxx: It didn't mean you were going to die-you didn't die when you fainted and broke your arm or the next time you fell and cracked your head so bad you needed 6 months of medical treatment and had to appear in public wearing prism glasses because of your brain damage-you are in superb condition.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> When I think of Trump having access to the nuclear codes, I can't help but think of this..........
> 
> View attachment 11466


Or this? 






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-FUfMRgbWU


----------



## sags

On the road giving speeches for a year, travelling in air conditioned buses and airplanes, sleeping in air conditioned rooms...........from one set of weather to another several times in a day...............I am surprised all of these candidates aren't run down by now. 

Hillary Clinton could probably use some rest, but with only 60 days to go she can't take the time.

If she suffered from some serious illness, I doubt running in this marathon would be her first priority.


----------



## sags

Hillary Clinton's biography is well known.

From speaking at her commencement, she has run up against the establishment and dedicated her life to public service.

Republicans have fought against her at every step of the way, from universal health care to education to addressing poverty.

President and Michelle Obama are campaigning for Clinton. Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden are campaigning for Clinton.

Elizabeth Warren............Wall Street bankers biggest headache is campaigning for Hillary Clinton.

While they criss cross the US campaigning for Clinton.....who is campaigning for Trump....besides Trump ?

Many more honorable people are campaigning or voting for Clinton, including Warren Buffet and Mark Cuban.

I would trust the judgement of people who know Hillary Clinton.

I would also trust the judgement of people who know Donald Trump and refuse to campaign or vote for him.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> While they criss cross the US campaigning for Clinton.....who is campaigning for Trump....besides Trump ?


... and yet Trump is currently leading a couple of credible polls. Hard to believe but there it is.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> On the road giving speeches for a year, travelling in air conditioned buses and airplanes, sleeping in air conditioned rooms...........from one set of weather to another several times in a day...............I am surprised all of these candidates aren't run down by now.
> 
> Hillary Clinton could probably use some rest, but with only 60 days to go she can't take the time.
> 
> If she suffered from some serious illness, I doubt running in this marathon would be her first priority.


Hillary pops out a couple times a week at best. Other than her coughing fit the other day, her last press conference was December 2015. Public appearances are rare and kept short....and there's always that guy hovering around with his hand reaching for his suit pocket ready to inject her with something whenever it looks like she's in trouble.


----------



## olivaw

Hillary Clinton may be the best vetted presidential candidate in history. Republicans have spent decades trying to bring her down. They spent tens of millions of dollars on anti-Clinton advertising. They've hired special prosecutors with unlimited taxpayer budgets. They hold politically motivated congressional hearings and subject her to constant investigation. In every instance - every instance - she has been exonerated. 

Informed voters know it. Uninformed voters don't. 

*Salon asks why it doesn't register with many voters*. She has been found to be more honest than virtually anyone in politics. 

The good news for the Clinton campaign is that those who know her, trust her and they are standing by her. An army of surrogates fanning out to help her to earn a well deserved victory in November.

She's on the campaign plane and she's on the move.


----------



## bass player

Wow.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> She has been found to be more honest than virtually anyone in politics.


Wait a minute... that's not exactly a high bar. lol!


----------



## new dog

I actually still don't care about her health issues and just wish the press had the freedom to say negative things about Hillary. 

On exoneration, she has to be exonerated or the establishment won't get a clear white house puppet. She could walk into a store and steal as much as she wants in front of cameras and some one will go by later and pay for it and the press would turn it into a non event. Except maybe they would find some way to blame Putin or Trump as an add on to their non event story.


----------



## Nelley

Tom: Crooked Hillary actually has the LOWEST ratings for honesty possible (64% of registered voters find her dishonest and untrustworthy)-Oliva is high on her own supply.


----------



## Mukhang pera

bass player said:


> Public appearances are rare and kept short....and there's always that guy hovering around with his hand reaching for his suit pocket ready to inject her with something whenever it looks like she's in trouble.


An explanation on another forum (which has about 90% U.S. members) is:

"She's in it for the money and the power. She has a doctor by her side with a Diazepam injector pen everywhere she goes. Words can't begin to describe the feelings of disgust I have for this woman."

Interesting that here, on a forum one would expect to be inhabited mostly by Canadians, Hillary enjoys a lot of support, not that that counts for anything. On a few other forums where I read often, where member are primarily in the U.S., she's despised by the great majority who post on the topic. The general view on those forums seems to be that, while Trump falls short of perfection, he's the best hope. I guess we'll see soon how it all plays out.


----------



## bass player

Just imagine the outcry from the media if Trump had someone following him around with an injector pen or photos popped up showing him needing help up a simple set of stairs, or he starred in a 4 minute video of non-stop coughing. But when it's Hillary, they remain mostly silent. When they are forced to acknowledge something, it gets a passing mention and is quickly forgotten.


----------



## olivaw

Politifact, a respected political fact checking website looked at the presidential candidates. The candidate who lies the most: - Donald J. Trump 

Clinton and Barack Obama are the most honest. (they lie the least)


















Republicans have spent decades and tens of millions of dollars attacking Clinton's personal character. They used special prosecutors, congressional hearings and the FBI - everything in their power to stop her. In every case, she was exonerated. Hillary Clinton is still standing and still smiling.


----------



## bass player

Politifact is known for their left wing bias.


----------



## olivaw

Politifact is widely respected independent fact checking website. The chart is self explanatory. Trump lies, and lies, and lies.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Politifact is known for their left wing bias.


Only to people who think Jesus rode a dinosaur.


----------



## Nelley

Tom: At least you had the good sense to insult the right religion-make that comment about Muhammad and the site will be bombed.


----------



## Nelley

This guy has a good track record uncovering company fraud-now he has been focusing on the fraudulent Clinton Foundation http://charlesortel.com/


----------



## sags

This thread sometimes reminds me of this............


----------



## new dog

Nelley who cares about fraud and criminal stuff all that matters is how much you lie. So if I say to you that have nice hair and tell someone else I like their clothes and I actually don't then I lied twice. If you commit a huge fraud but we only find out once then that is only once. So in theory I am the one you shouldn't vote for because I lied twice.

As stupid as my logic is I believe that is the message everyone is putting out here about Hillary.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump cleared up a few things today.

He will announce his immigration plan some time after he is elected.

He will announce his military plan some time after he is elected.

He will release his tax returns some time after he is elected.

Hope that clears up any confusion for Trump supporters.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Nelley who cares about fraud and criminal stuff


Speaking of Fraud; *Trump University. *



> U.S. District Court Judge Gonzalo P. Curiel ruled Tuesday that a lawsuit alleging Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s now-defunct university was a fraud can proceed to trial in November.
> https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/08/02/trump-university-fraud-case-will-go-to-trial.html


----------



## olivaw

Trump wants to increase the military budget. The United States currently spends about 600B. It's not enough for Trump. I truly hope that he does not want the extra money to replace all of the nuclear weapons that he plans to launch. As Sags said, we won't know because Trump won't tell us. He likes to be unpredictable. 

US 600B
China spends 215B
Saudi Arabia 87B
Russia 66.4B
UK 55.5B
India 51.3B
France 50.9B
Japan 40.9
Germany 39.4B
South Korea 36.4B


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Trump wants to increase the military budget. The United States currently spends about 600B. It's not enough for Trump. I truly hope that he does not want the extra money to replace all of the nuclear weapons that he plans to launch. As Sags said, we won't know because Trump won't tell us. He likes to be unpredictable.
> 
> US 600B
> China spends 215B
> Saudi Arabia 87B
> Russia 66.4B
> UK 55.5B
> India 51.3B
> France 50.9B
> Japan 40.9
> Germany 39.4B
> South Korea 36.4B


All the chickenhawks and neocons support Crooked Hillary-yesterday Trump is Putin's buddy-today it is nuclear armageddon with Mother Russia-get a new script-this one is tired.


----------



## humble_pie

*the presidential staircase*

.
evidently there is a formal staircase that belongs to US Air Force One that gets flown around the world by the USAF to whichever airport the US president is landing at.

the US military had already landed the staircase at beijing airport last week. US officials were ready to roll it forward to the main Air Force One exit door, so the US president could exit the craft onto its red carpet & descend majestically down the familiar stairs.

but the chinese had the whimsical taste to supply a chinese-speaking-only driver for the staircase. This made the americans very nervous.

it would certainly make me nervous, if i were the US official in charge of US presidential security in foreign airports. I mean, if we couldn't communicate with the staircase driver, who knows what he might do. Think of where or how he could crash that staircase vehicle. Why he might even be a terrorist. What if he'd rigged the staircase with bombs. Imagine a suicide bomber driving a staircase.

understandably, the US objected to the unilingual staircase driver. After all, it was a US staircase, not a chinese staircase, even though it was parked in a chinese airport.

now we come to justin trudeau, who also flies around the world on an RCAF military aircraft. As prime minister, justin is not allowed to take civilian flights.

does canada also ship her own red-carpeted staircase on a separate RCAF flight, so it can be motored up to the prime ministerial transport plane when it lands in a foreign airport?

then what happens with something like a G20, where you have 20 world leaders all flying in together, each one aboard his or her own national military transport. Do they all also ship in their own plane exit staircases under separate cover?

on these occasions, are foreign airports gridlocked with dozens of national staircases all waiting to drive themselves amok on the tarmacs? are there always fights over whether the host country gets to supply the staircase drivers or whether the foreign guest heads-of-state are allowed to bring their very own staircase chauffeurs, along with their spouses, secretaries & hairdressers?

criticisms of the canadian prime minister are OT in this thread, but i submit to the nellies & the bass players on here that an entire new scandal is ripe & ready to be blown up. Does justin trudeau fly to foreign heads-of-state meetings with his own personal staircase on board another military aircraft?

*Dear Lord how Much is this Staircase Costing the Taxpayers of Canada?*


.


----------



## Nelley

Humble:Are you getting paid by the word?


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> .
> evidently there is a formal staircase that belongs to US Air Force One that gets flown around the world by the USAF to whichever airport the US president is landing at.


I wasn't aware of that Humble but it makes sense. The United States is not going to take chances with the security of Air Force One. 

Trump made a lot of noise about the staircase but he tends to make noise before he has the facts.


----------



## new dog

Here is where I sit if I had to vote.

Hillary is out I would never vote for her.

Trump would be the second one out mostly because of what olivaw said about controlling supporters. This tells me he may be a bit of a tyrant if elected.

I would be forced to vote for a third choice or ruin my ballot.

I am being honest, which I am not sure if everyone else is being honest, when they say they would like to vote for Hillary. If they are being honest, then they sure don't dig very deep into the corruption they are voting for or just don't care about it.


----------



## sags

Trump thinks Putin is a good leader. Putin supports Bashar Assad in Syria. Assad just dropped barrels of chlorine on innocent people in Syria.

Connect the dots and Hillary Clinton is the only choice for a lot of reasons, but mostly due to national security and foreign policy.

Trump believes he has simplistic answers to complex problems. He doesn't take advice from others. He believes he knows more than the generals fighting ISIS. How does he deal with Iran, North Korea, China, Russia...........if he can't even get along with Mexico ?

What happens when he runs up against foreign leaders who aren't interested in what he says ? How does he react to that ?

Those are the questions Americans are..........or should be most concerned about.

I think those are the questions most Canadians are concerned about, even though they have no control over it.


----------



## new dog

We don't know who dropped the gas in Syria, we just know it came from Syrian stockpiles at the time. Obama did a terrible job fighting ISIS and may even have indirectly supported it in his quest to get rid of Assad. 

Can Hillary really get along with Russia and China as you claim. Foreign leaders are already sounding uninterested in Obama. 

Everything you say about Trump is true and it would be amazing but unlikely that he proves us wrong.

So being on the left means that you can't connect the dots when it comes to Hillary. In fact you can't even criticize her and can only attack Trump. If you really did connect the dots on Hillary it would look like a toilet bowl where one could flush away their vote.

I can vote to the right or left in an election if I feel the choice is the right one to make at the time. Most of the time I vote however there is a lot I don't like when I am voting but I have to take the best of the worst. In the US election as I said I don't think I could vote either one.


----------



## Nelley

Obviously there is a lot to dislike about Clinton but IMO one of the most dangerous things about her as POTUS is her obvious (almost unprecedented for someone this close to becoming POTUS and this rich) unhappiness-the anger and disgust with life itself comes off her in waves. You can hate Trump but you have to admit he absolutely seems to love being Donald Trump.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Obviously there is a lot to dislike about Clinton but IMO one of the most dangerous things about her as POTUS is her obvious (almost unprecedented for someone this close to becoming POTUS and this rich) unhappiness-the anger and disgust with life itself comes off her in waves.




another Rorschach test

unhappy angry & disgusted describes the nelley to a *T*


.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Perhaps Mr. Byrne has little insight into the American electorate. I think the content of this video will earn her more votes than harm her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbJe-Yelp-I


----------



## Nelley

Humble: A wet bird never flies at night.


----------



## olivaw

It was about this time in the 2008 election cycle that Republicans rolled out the angry black man accusation against Barack Obama. Now they're trotting out the angry woman (b-tch) accusation against Hillary Clinton. 

Yawn. 
:apathy:


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> It was about this time in the 2008 election cycle that Republicans rolled out the angry black man accusation against Barack Obama. Now they're trotting out the angry woman (b-tch) accusation against Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Yawn.
> :apathy:


That is ridiculous-look at Wynne-she is a disaster for Ontario but she looks like she is having a great time.


----------



## sags

_First quarter results for 2016 show the Ontario economy growing at an annualized rate of three per cent, the highest in Canada and all G7 countries._

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/18/ontario-economy-growing-at-highest-rate-in-canada

The last time the United States had a budget surplus, Bill Clinton was the President.

The economic record of liberals versus conservatives is pretty clear. Liberals simply do a much better job.

One more reason for Americans to vote for Hillary Clinton.


----------



## Nelley

The latest is that Crooked Hillary actually wore an earpiece (giving her instructions) during the "town Hall" thing yesterday-this sick puppet can't even lie without help-she is like a demented ventriloquist's dummy.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> The latest is that Crooked Hillary actually wore an earpiece (giving her instructions) during the "town Hall" thing yesterday-this sick puppet can't even lie without help-she is like a demented ventriloquist's dummy.


I can understand having a different philosophical point of view and I applaud people for voting their convictions, or even voting at all, but the ignorance and subjectivity of this post boggles my mind.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I can understand having a different philosophical point of view and I applaud people for voting their convictions, or even voting at all, but the ignorance and subjectivity of this post boggles my mind.


My god your virtue is so impressive-thanks for sharing it with us mortals.


----------



## olivaw

Speaking of the Commander in Chief Town Hall (and setting aside earpiece hoaxes), 

- Trump heaped praise upon Vladimir Putin. 
- He criticizes American Generals, suggesting that he would fire some of them if he were elected. 
- He claims that he has his own secret plan to defeat ISIS but would give the generals 30 days to come up with a plan to defeat ISIS. (Not sure if he is going to ask for their pointless plan before or after he fires them)
- Trump said he has common sense which makes up for his total lack of experience. 

- Clinton's asked to be judged on the totality of her record. 
- Her weakest moment was when she appeared irritated with the questions about the email server. 

It was not a knockout blow for either candidate, which is a testament to Trump's staying power. If any other leader showed up to the town hall as ill prepared as Trump their career would be over. Trump has made so many ridiculous statements that people just shrug. 

Hopefully, in their heart of hearts, Americans know that this clown cannot be trusted to command the most destructive military and nuclear arsenal of all times.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Speaking of the Commander in Chief Town Hall (and setting aside earpiece hoaxes),
> 
> - Trump heaped praise upon Vladimir Putin.
> - He criticizes American Generals, suggesting that he would fire some of them if he were elected.
> - He claims that he has his own secret plan to defeat ISIS but would give the generals 30 days to come up with a plan to defeat ISIS. (Not sure if he is going to ask for their pointless plan before or after he fires them)
> - Trump said he has common sense which makes up for his total lack of experience.
> 
> - Clinton's asked to be judged on the totality of her record.
> - Her weakest moment was when she appeared irritated with the questions about the email server.
> 
> It was not a knockout blow for either candidate, which is a testament to Trump's staying power. If any other leader showed up to the town hall as ill prepared as Trump their career would be over. Trump has made so many ridiculous statements that people just shrug.
> 
> Hopefully, in their heart of hearts, Americans know that this clown cannot be trusted to command the most destructive military and nuclear arsenal of all times.


You might love Crooked Hillary, but it looks like Americans have finally had enough of this criminal-just wait until Assange's next release (I assume you feel he is also working for Trump/Putin).


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> You might love Crooked Hillary, but it looks like Americans have finally had enough of this criminal-just wait until Assange's next release (I assume you feel he is also working for Trump/Putin).


TomB19 said it best: 


TomB19 said:


> I can understand having a different philosophical point of view and I applaud people for voting their convictions, or even voting at all, but the ignorance and subjectivity of this post boggles my mind.


----------



## Nelley

Uh oh-bad news-71% of doctors polled buy into my crazy conspiracy theory about sick Hillary-doesn't look good http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...n-physicians-and-surgeons-aaps-300325065.html


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Uh oh-bad news-71% of doctors polled buy into my crazy conspiracy theory about sick Hillary-doesn't look good http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...n-physicians-and-surgeons-aaps-300325065.html



the above statement is false. The Association of american physicians and surgeons is not a mainstream professional association of MDs in the US. It is a minority extreme rightwing political organization with only 5000 members in 2014.

out of this limited membership, only 88 doctors bothered to reply to the linked poll above to say that they harbour concerns over hillary clinton's health.

in the entire US of A, a sampling of only 88 doctors is statistically insignificant.

reportedly this association sponsors a number of scientifically discredited views, for example claiming that HIV does not cause AIDS & that being gay reduces life expectancy.


_" The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association founded in 1943 to "fight socialized medicine and to fight the government takeover of medicine." The group was reported to have approximately 4,000 members in 2005, and 5,000 in 2014. 

" The association is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative, and its publication advocates a range of scientifically discredited theories, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there are links between autism and vaccinations."_


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

.


----------



## sags

This group also opposes abortion, birth control, universal health care, Obamacare, and vaccinations.


----------



## olivaw

Apparently 88 members of the group also believes in wingnut conspiracy theories. :rugby:


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> This group also opposes abortion, birth control, universal health care, Obamacare, and vaccinations.



sags speaking as a female person i cannot convey to you how repugnant & repulsive is the incessant sexist libel against democratic candidate hillary clinton that keeps hemorrhaging out from a few posters in this thread.

as has been pointed out several times, we are canadians in canada. Our principal concerns with the US vote are the foreign, military & trade policies of the future US president.

spewing out never-ending personal hatred for hillary clinton does not seem appropriate for a financial forum. Perhaps nelley & bass player could find a political forum somewhere else for their diatribes.

.


----------



## sags

The Trump nomination has given the far right ideology a roost from which to crow.

Trump enabled them, but a resounding Clinton victory will shut it all down abruptly.

It is a last gasp effort by the far right to remain relevant. When this election is over, the Republican Party will banish them to the netherlands.


----------



## olivaw

A humiliating Trump defeat would be good for America but the ideas that he represents are probably not going anywhere in our lifetimes. My wife and I know Americans who support the Republicans and Trump. They love their guns, they watch Fox News, they fear for the white race and they think their country is losing its supremacy. These are not evil people. In fact, they are decent people. They just live in a right wing information bubble.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> A humiliating Trump defeat would be good for America but the ideas that he represents are probably not going anywhere in our lifetimes. My wife and I know Americans who support the Republicans and Trump. They love their guns, they watch Fox News, they fear for the white race and they think their country is losing its supremacy. These are not evil people. In fact, they are decent people. They just live in a right wing information bubble.


Just don't come crying to me when Crooked Sick Hillary goes down in flames-and the fact that you and Humble support this criminal and could care less about the damage she has caused doesn't say much for your character.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> sags speaking as a female person i cannot convey to you how repugnant & repulsive is the incessant sexist libel against democratic candidate hillary clinton that keeps hemorrhaging out from a few posters in this thread.
> 
> as has been pointed out several times, we are canadians in canada. Our principal concerns with the US vote are the foreign, military & trade policies of the future US president.
> 
> spewing out never-ending personal hatred for hillary clinton does not seem appropriate for a financial forum. Perhaps nelley & bass player could find a political forum somewhere else for their diatribes.
> 
> .


That is a very ironic insult when it is obvious you are only supporting Crooked Hillary because she is female-you are the definition of an overtly sexist person.


----------



## Mukhang pera

**


----------



## Mukhang pera

**


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Just don't come crying to me when Crooked Sick Hillary goes down in flames-and the fact that you and Humble support this criminal and could care less about the damage she has caused doesn't say much for your character.


I haven't read this entire thread but would this be a good time to point out that Hillary created Isis?

:biggrin:


----------



## new dog

For the most part everyone has been well behaved on this thread. Humble and I have battled but I still respect her opinion and we have challenged each other without swearing or name calling. I find Bass and Nelley have kept it in check as well despite them being challenged or challenging others. When I have read some US forums it gets extremely nasty and unreadable so all in all we have all done well on this forum. As long as we keep out the swear words and nasty stuff then I enjoy reading everyones opinions even if I disagree.


----------



## olivaw

Dogcom, it is not as nasty as US threads. A variety of opinions are welcome, although it would be nice if one poster could accept that 70 or 80 repetitive posts about Clinton's health are sufficient. Perhaps there are Trump supporters on CMF with something new to contribute.  

You and I disagree about Clinton but it is a friendly disagreement. I actually spent over a decade regarding her as a holier-than-thou type and couldn't bring myself to like her. I came around after she became Secretary of State. She worked tirelessly. She shrugged off attacks that would reduce most of us to rubble. She has been called a liar, a monster, a zombie, a drama queen, a spoiled b-tch and a murderer. She remains positive and fiercely loyal to her country. Those who know her best remain fiercely loyal to her.

Clinton was not my first choice. I wanted Joe Biden but he didn't run. I still believe that Hillary Clinton is a good choice. That may actually put me at odds with many posters here who think that the only reason to vote for Clinton is to stop Trump from getting near the nuclear codes.


----------



## TomB19

I was OK with Trump until the end of the primaries when he started cranking up the crazy machine. The relentless insanity was more than I could deal with.

Trump had a few traits which were refreshing. His point about not being owned was spot on. Implement tarrifs with China... it needs to be done. I think it needs to be done carefully but free trade with Asia is suicide for 99% of North Americans. He has other positions I agree with, also.

All of those good ideas are still there but there is way too much crazy for me to support him.

It is clear to me the level of ignorance on the right exceeds that on the left, by a significant margin. Considering how far gone some of the left is, that's saying a lot.

... but even in these crazy days, there are some pretty good quality people on the right. They aren't all crazy. These folks are the ones I feel bad for. They aren't represented and there is no opportunity in sight for them to be represented.

The left isn't represented either, but I think the left is a wee bit closer.

The whole deal is pretty whacked.

Meanwhile, in Canada, the number of foreign workers is out of control and I personally know quite a few people who known to be really good workers, have credentials, are unemployed. I think we're better off than the US but not by as much as many of us think. Corporations are running Canada, too.


----------



## mrPPincer

She's a good statesman. Maybe adept is a better description, , she's seen it all, she has a ten-point plan on practically everything, and is an open book on all of it.

Compare this to Trump, flip-flopping with opposing angry rhetoric from day one, shifting talking points to the audience at hand from day to day, zero policy, and obviously zero comprehension, the only time he can actually stay consistent is when he's reading from a telaprompter, 

which he did once recently, more or less, immediately after his Mexico visit, where the Mexican prez said no frickin' way we're payin' for your wall, and mentioned something about nations showing some dignity and respect.

He (trump) as soon as he got home, popped up and said the wall is going up, the biggest tallest beautifulest wall ever and they're payin', even though they don't know it yet.

Looks like he missed the memo re. respect.


----------



## Eder

Here in San Diego my straw poll puts it in a dead heat


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Dogcom, it is not as nasty as US threads. A variety of opinions are welcome, although it would be nice if one poster could accept that 70 or 80 repetitive posts about Clinton's health are sufficient. Perhaps there are Trump supporters on CMF with something new to contribute.
> 
> You and I disagree about Clinton but it is a friendly disagreement. I actually spent over a decade regarding her as a holier-than-thou type and couldn't bring myself to like her. I came around after she became Secretary of State. She worked tirelessly. She shrugged off attacks that would reduce most of us to rubble. She has been called a liar, a monster, a zombie, a drama queen, a spoiled b-tch and a murderer. She remains positive and fiercely loyal to her country. Those who know her best remain fiercely loyal to her.
> 
> Clinton was not my first choice. I wanted Joe Biden but he didn't run. I still believe that Hillary Clinton is a good choice. That may actually put me at odds with many posters here who think that the only reason to vote for Clinton is to stop Trump from getting near the nuclear codes.


You must have drifted way from the MSM herd-the latest story is that Trump works for Putin-so this sheep is actually afraid that Vladimir Putin will get control of the US nuclear codes. Makes sense-and that FBI investigation was just another conspiracy to get the greatest Secretary of State ever.


----------



## s123

olivaw said:


> Trump wants to increase the military budget. The United States currently spends about 600B. It's not enough for Trump. I truly hope that he does not want the extra money to replace all of the nuclear weapons that he plans to launch. As Sags said, we won't know because Trump won't tell us. He likes to be unpredictable.
> 
> US 600B
> China spends 215B
> Saudi Arabia 87B
> Russia 66.4B
> UK 55.5B
> India 51.3B
> France 50.9B
> Japan 40.9
> Germany 39.4B
> South Korea 36.4B


I would like to also point out this.

- The Defense Industry’s Surprising 2016 Favorites: Bernie & Hillary:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ders-republican-ted-cruz-213783#superComments

Both Sanders and Clinton have received more money from defense contractor employees than any GOP candidate.
By Alexander Cohen April 01, 2016

The disparity between the Democratic and Republican candidates may seem unusual, since Republicans often depict themselves as more supportive of defense spending than their Democratic opponents, and historically, more defense-related contributions have gone to Republicans. It’s possible that donors at defense-related companies are betting that a Democrat is more likely to win the White House in the fall than any of the Republicans, which makes Clinton and Sanders more useful targets for investment.

Follow the Defense Money
Contributions to presidential candidates from the top 50 defense contractors. *

Hillary Clinton over $450,000
Bernie Sanders over $300,000
Donald Trump over $10,000


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Mrs. Clinton dropped a brick the other day when she called half Trump's supporters "deplorables" and "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, you name it". Way to woo the voters Hillary!

Today she took back the word "half" and let the rest of it stand, and in the same statement called Trump supporters bigots and racists . Does she really think this is going to change Trump supporters' minds? Or does she figure she has the election locked up and doesn't need any more votes?


----------



## new dog

If Trump had said this about Hillary supporters he would be getting grilled and condemned for about 72 hours over it in the media. On this forum it would also have been a hot topic from the Hillary backers here but because Hillary says it as little attention as possible will be applied to it.

Having said this, it has been quiet lately and there hasn't really been a lot to talk about so maybe Trump is getting the message about keeping his mouth shut. The other possibility is everyone is getting bored of it and football has started.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> If Trump had said this about Hillary supporters he would be getting grilled and condemned for about 72 hours over it in the media. On this forum it would also have been a hot topic from the Hillary backers here but because Hillary says it as little attention as possible will be applied to it.
> 
> Having said this, it has been quiet lately and there hasn't really been a lot to talk about so maybe Trump is getting the message about keeping his mouth shut. The other possibility is everyone is getting bored of it and football has started.


Football is better because even the most rabid e.g. Buffalo Bills fan will admit that NE has a stronger team-the sad thing is that discussing NFL football is at a higher level intellectually than discussing politics with Hillary zombies.


----------



## none

new dog said:


> If Trump had said this about Hillary supporters he would be getting grilled and condemned for about 72 hours over it in the media. On this forum it would also have been a hot topic from the Hillary backers here but because Hillary says it as little attention as possible will be applied to it.
> 
> Having said this, it has been quiet lately and there hasn't really been a lot to talk about so maybe Trump is getting the message about keeping his mouth shut. The other possibility is everyone is getting bored of it and football has started.


Well it doesnt help that many Trump supporters are truly disgusting people: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/10/opinions/how-trump-has-normalized-the-deplorable-bailey/


----------



## Nelley

none said:


> Well it doesnt help that many Trump supporters are truly disgusting people: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/10/opinions/how-trump-has-normalized-the-deplorable-bailey/


CNN is basically one of those tabloids at the supermarket at this point. Junk food for the brain dead.


----------



## sags

The level of discontent among the people is revealing.

Conrad Black opined that regardless of who wins the election, Clinton or Trump..........if there aren't significant changes to distribution of wealth and opportunity in the next four years, the next US election will be fought between the extreme right and extreme left wings of the two parties.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> The level of discontent among the people is revealing.
> 
> Conrad Black opined that regardless of who wins the election, Clinton or Trump..........if there aren't significant changes to distribution of wealth and opportunity in the next four years, the next US election will be fought between the extreme right and extreme left wings of the two parties.


YES-Clinton's platform is more of the same of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama( last 28 years)-all controlled by the same money-both Trump and Sanders have talked about attempting to make major change.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> YES-Clinton's platform is more of the same of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama( last 28 years)-all controlled by the same money-both Trump and Sanders have talked about attempting to make major change.


^This could very possibly be the first thing you've said here that we can agree on.

I do think however, that Bernie's campaign and his supporters have influenced the Clinton campaign, so we'll see if any of it sticks when she gets elected I guess.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> ^This could very possibly be the first thing you've said here that we can agree on.
> 
> I do think however, that Bernie's campaign and his supporters have influenced the Clinton campaign, so we'll see if any of it sticks when she gets elected I guess.


Slowly the sheep are starting to realize that the whole Dem/Repub thing is a big farce-Trump has been a vocal critic of George Bush Jr (unlike Hillary Clinton).


----------



## mrPPincer

bah humbug :nonchalance:

We sheep are way ahead of you Nelly; everybody knows both parties serve the same masters; it's systemic, due to the unlimited campaign funding from the international corporations.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

new dog said:


> If Trump had said this about Hillary supporters he would be getting grilled and condemned for about 72 hours over it in the media. On this forum it would also have been a hot topic from the Hillary backers here but because Hillary says it as little attention as possible will be applied to it.
> 
> Having said this, it has been quiet lately and there hasn't really been a lot to talk about so maybe Trump is getting the message about keeping his mouth shut. The other possibility is everyone is getting bored of it and football has started.


The point is Trump is smart enough not to say things like that about Hillary supporters or any other voter, his insults are reserved for foreigners, criminals, and illegal immigrants. One reason it has been easier for voters and politicians who don't even like Trump to come into his camp.

Take a look at their respective public appearances. Trump books a stadium and fills it. Hillary books a high school auditorium and they have to move the walls in to kill the echos.


----------



## olivaw

Trump makes outlandish statements daily and gets a pass. Clinton says something that everybody already knew and Trump supporters are beside themselves with outrage. 

Anyway, Hillary felt faint and had to lie down for an hour. Stand by for 30 boring posts about her health. :apathy:


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

This may mean the end of Hillary's chances. The symbolism of being carried away from the site of the 9/11 attack is going to strike deeper than her supporters think.

How is she going to stand up to the pressures of being President if she passes out at 9:30 on a September morning just looking at the 9/11 site?


----------



## sags

If......and I think it is still a big if, but if Hillary Clinton is suffering from some severe illness, I would hope she would step aside right away.

If she leaves it to near election day and has a major health problem, she will be handing the Presidency to Trump.

VP Tim Kaine is popular among voters, and if he asked Elizabeth Warren to be his VP, the Democrats would unite and win in a landslide.

I hope Clinton is honest about her health, because the keys to the White House are at stake.

To my non medical, non professional eye, the video shows Clinton starting to tremble and it appears a lot like she was suffering a seizure.

It didn't look like a typical fainting spell.

Sanjay Gupta on CNN, a neurological surgeon said Clinton should be given a full examination to ensure nothing is going on.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for all candidates for President or VP to undergo testing by a panel of independent doctors.


----------



## mrPPincer

Who frikkin' cares??

She may or may not be effed up healthwise, but she's clearly the only option considering the only current alternative.

There have been other excellent US leaders that have had bad health.

eg. Franklin D. Roosevelt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Who frikkin' cares??
> 
> She may or may not be effed up healthwise, but she's clearly the only option considering the only current alternative.
> 
> There have been other excellent US leaders that have had bad health.
> 
> eg. Franklin D. Roosevelt
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt


However, the MSM and Hillary zombies have been quick to label anyone who noticed this person's obviously deteriorating health as a "conspiracy theorist"-now simply saying OK she is very ill but it is irrelevant doesn't really look objective IMO.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> If......and I think it is still a big if, but if Hillary Clinton is suffering from some severe illness, I would hope she would step aside right away.
> 
> If she leaves it to near election day and has a major health problem, she will be handing the Presidency to Trump.
> 
> VP Tim Kaine is popular among voters, and if he asked Elizabeth Warren to be his VP, the Democrats would unite and win in a landslide.
> 
> I hope Clinton is honest about her health, because the keys to the White House are at stake.
> 
> To my non medical, non professional eye, the video shows Clinton starting to tremble and it appears a lot like she was suffering a seizure.
> 
> It didn't look like a typical fainting spell.
> 
> Sanjay Gupta on CNN, a neurological surgeon said Clinton should be given a full examination to ensure nothing is going on.
> 
> It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for all candidates for President or VP to undergo testing by a panel of independent doctors.


This is not the first seizure she has had in public-seizures, uncontrollable coughing, incredible fatigue-is there anyone on this forum who would not be alarmed if they had her health symptoms?


----------



## SMK

IF there is something wrong with Clinton and she's been hiding it, the issue that will stick with voters is not the illness, but that of dishonesty. 

In my opinion, Biden sensed he could beat Clinton, but his personal grief was too great to care about becoming POTUS. He would be way ahead of Trump by now.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The Presidency puts tremendous pressure on anyone. Look at Obama, he appears to have aged 20 years in the last 8 and this is not unusual. I would hate to see the President fold up like a cheap card table in a hurricane every time there is a crisis.


----------



## mrPPincer

Personally I'd have much rather have seen them go with Bernie, but it is what it is, and I'd sooner see Hillary hold the fort for four years that the nutbar that is opposing her.

She knows the ropes, and she'll no doubt do alright in there.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Trump makes outlandish statements daily and gets a pass. Clinton says something that everybody already knew and Trump supporters are beside themselves with outrage.
> 
> Anyway, Hillary felt faint and had to lie down for an hour. Stand by for 30 boring posts about her health. :apathy:


You again miss the point-this is the first politically incorrect public statement this career politician has ever made-rather than own it and be proud of it she is already weaselling out as expected-it was refreshing to hear her honest opinion from this perpetual liar for a change-of course she hates anyone who supports Trump-everyone already knew that.


----------



## Nelley

SMK said:


> IF there is something wrong with Clinton and she's been hiding it, the issue that will stick with voters is not the illness, but that of dishonesty.
> 
> In my opinion, Biden sensed he could beat Clinton, but his personal grief was too great to care about becoming POTUS. He would be way ahead of Trump by now.


Polls have shown that most Hillary supporters feel she is quite dishonest, so IMO it wouldn't hurt her as much as if they thought this person had integrity.


----------



## SMK

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The Presidency puts tremendous pressure on anyone. Look at Obama, he appears to have aged 20 years in the last 8 and this is not unusual. I would hate to see the President fold up like a cheap card table in a hurricane every time there is a crisis.


Obama is 55, and he pretty much looks his age, hair color and all. The pigment on his hair follicles is working fine.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Personally I'd have much rather have seen them go with Bernie, but it is what it is, and I'd sooner see Hillary hold the fort for four years that the nutbar that is opposing her.
> 
> She knows the ropes, and she'll no doubt do alright in there.


Crooked Hillary knows all the ropes as you state-that is why so many people in the USA hate her.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Seriously, you think this is the first misstatement she has ever made? Or even the first "politically incorrect public statement"? How long have you been following politics, a week?


----------



## Nelley

SMK said:


> Obama is 55, and he pretty much looks his age, hair color and all. The pigment on his hair follicles is working fine.


He is doing great-over the last 8 years he has never missed a tee time.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Seriously, you think this is the first mistake she has ever made? Or even the first "politically incorrect public statement"? How long have you been following politics, a week?


I didn't mention mistakes.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

2008 and 2016

Left click to enlarge or Open link in new tab to enlarge


----------



## SMK

Nelley said:


> He is doing great-over the last 8 years he has never missed a tee time.


True that.


----------



## Mukhang pera

SMK said:


> IF there is something wrong with Clinton and she's been hiding it, the issue that will stick with voters is not the illness, but that of dishonesty.


If there be any dishonesty, it will only redound to her considerable credit. The American electorate admires dishonesty in its politicians. Look at Bill Clinton. Guilty of sexual misconduct in respect of a young woman in respect of whom he was in a position of trust and authority (not to mention cheating on Hillary). Then lied about it all under oath. And the result? More revered than ever. 

And now Hillary, who mendaciously characterized efforts to prove her husband's later-admitted disgraceful misconduct as a "vast right-wing conspiracy", stands to be richly rewarded by being elected president. And Bill will be almost equally rewarded, at least vicariously. He will be restored to the White House, where most Americans think he belongs. A vote for Hillary is a vote for Bill. That is one reason why Hillary's health is a non-issue. 

So, in sum, to the extent Hillary can exhibit dishonesty, it will enhance her value in the eyes of the people. Honest folks are just too boring.


----------



## SMK

Rusty O'Toole said:


> View attachment 11546
> 2008 and 2016
> 
> Left click to enlarge or Open link in new tab to enlarge


Visible difference, like in the rest of his family. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K8GWCl7P7U


----------



## SMK

Mukhang pera said:


> If there be any dishonesty, it will only redound to her considerable credit. The American electorate admires dishonesty in its politicians. Look at Bill Clinton. Guilty of sexual misconduct in respect of a young woman in respect of whom he was in a position of trust and authority (not to mention cheating on Hillary). Then lied about it all under oath. And the result? More revered than ever.
> 
> And now Hillary, who mendaciously characterized efforts to prove her husband's later-admitted disgraceful misconduct as a "vast right-wing conspiracy", stands to be richly rewarded by being elected president. And Bill will be almost equally rewarded, at least vicariously. He will be restored to the White House, where most Americans think he belongs. A vote for Hillary is a vote for Bill. That is one reason why Hillary's health is a non-issue.
> 
> So, in sum, to the extent Hillary can exhibit dishonesty, it will enhance her value in the eyes of the people. Honest folks are just too boring.


I agree, a vote for Hillary is a vote for Bill. Voters didn't care about Bill's sleazy affairs, but the issue of distrust where the wife is concerned goes very deep.


----------



## olivaw

Mukhang pera said:


> If there be any dishonesty, it will only redound to her considerable credit. The American electorate admires dishonesty in its politicians. Look at Bill Clinton. Guilty of sexual misconduct in respect of a young woman in respect of whom he was in a position of trust and authority (not to mention cheating on Hillary). Then lied about it all under oath. And the result? More revered than ever.
> 
> And now Hillary, who mendaciously characterized efforts to prove her husband's later-admitted disgraceful misconduct as a "vast right-wing conspiracy", stands to be richly rewarded by being elected president. And Bill will be almost equally rewarded, at least vicariously. He will be restored to the White House, where most Americans think he belongs. A vote for Hillary is a vote for Bill. That is one reason why Hillary's health is a non-issue.
> 
> So, in sum, to the extent Hillary can exhibit dishonesty, it will enhance her value in the eyes of the people. Honest folks are just too boring.


Those who accuse Clinton of excess dishonesty are not paying attention. Trump has been caught in more lies than any politician since Nixon. He hides his tax returns. His health letter is a joke. He is opaque about his debt to foreign interests. He is being sued for fraud. He was caught using political donations to make investigations go away. Heck, he pretty much admitted to buying politicians. Clinton is a paragon of virtue compared to Trump. 

Twenty years ago, the GOP tried to turn Bill Clinton's tryst with an intern into a political issue but data suggests that it may actually have harmed their campaign. Voters weren't moved by language like "disgraceful misconduct". Most are more interested in more important issues when they are in the voting booth.


----------



## Mukhang pera

olivaw said:


> Twenty years ago, the GOP tried to turn Bill Clinton's tryst with an intern into a political issue but data suggests that it may actually have harmed their campaign. Voters weren't moved by language like "disgraceful misconduct".


Exactly my point. It's a wasted effort to seek to impugn the honesty or integrity of any candidate. The more outrageous their conduct, the more morally bankrupt the better. As you say, trying to make hay over Bill's improprieties only enhanced his attractiveness to the average voter. It mortally wounded the GOP. That's why he'll now make a triumphant return to his rightful position in the White House. It's unstoppable. It is, in short, the will of the people.


----------



## Nelley

All this health talk about Hillary is just conspiracy nonsense-she can open a jar of pickles like a strongman.


----------



## bass player

How many "fainting spells" does Hillary have that are not caught on camera? How long will some people continue to deny that she may have a serous health issue even when confronted with video evidence?


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> How many "fainting spells" does Hillary have that are not caught on camera? How long will some people continue to deny that she may have a serous health issue even when confronted with video evidence?


In the video it appears that temporarily she has a problem walking/severe muscle weakness-my guess would be a side effect of the heavy meds they have her on for her Parkinsons disease (just a guesstimate). They are trying to claim pneumonia but it certainly doesn't look like IMO.


----------



## Nelley

This is the best video-it shows she does not faint but actually cannot move her legs and thus falls over forward https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11-EAzsGxgQ


----------



## new dog

Hillary probably was telling the truth about Trump supporters as none mentioned above. Maybe the percentage was off but still it is true. Hillary also has a big share of people who are off in the Dem party. Many Dems can't think for themselves can't, are politically correct in a crazy way and many are idiots. In fact any company you work at there are going to be a percentage of idiots or people that no one can get along with whether it be employees or management. 

This is what I have taught my son that no matter where you work difficult people or idiots will be there and there is no sense running from it.


----------



## mrPPincer

Weekend at Bernie's yup.

I'd still even vote for a dead Hillary puppet than that effed up orange crazy clown if I had the choice though


----------



## mrPPincer

*Thousands of Americans illegally flee to Canada over fears of election results*
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/...s-of-election-results-1.3751992?autoplay=true


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> *Thousands of Americans illegally flee to Canada over fears of election results*
> http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/...s-of-election-results-1.3751992?autoplay=true


I eagerly await for CBC to show some balance in their coverage and interview people that are horrified at the possibility of Hillary being elected...but, we all know that will never happen.


----------



## mrPPincer

> .. Hillary being elected...but, we all know that will never happen.


Personally, I'd prefer any sock puppet over the possibility of the crazy fascist maniac.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Personally, I'd prefer any sock puppet over the possibility of the crazy fascist maniac.


Me too. Hillary is dangerous and needs to be defeated.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Me too. Hillary is dangerous and needs to be defeated.


LOL .. that's not what I meant...


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> LOL .. that's not what I meant...


I know, but my comment was closer to the truth...


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> I know, but my comment was closer to the truth...


ok, understood, but from my perspective, hiring Trump would be equivalent to putting Freddie Krueger in the job


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> ok, understood, but from my perspective, hiring Trump would be equivalent to putting Freddie Krueger in the job


Trump has killed no one, so your analogy is 100% wrong.

On the other hand, Hillary has already proven to be the equivalent of a crooked third world dictator whose only goal is to enrich herself.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> ok, understood, but from my perspective, hiring Trump would be equivalent to putting Freddie Krueger in the job


Lets face it Pincer: if you had a company and you needed a CEO you would hire a guy just like Trump-there is no way you would be stupid enough to hire Boy Trudeau or Wynne or Crooked Hillary to run it.


----------



## humble_pie

mrPPincer said:


> *Thousands of Americans illegally flee to Canada over fears of election results*
> http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/...s-of-election-results-1.3751992?autoplay=true




why would anyone take this piece seriously. It's a sendup .:biggrin:

the american accent of the female "canadian" border patrol officer is enough to give the show away

still want to believe? read the about page. These journos brashly avow they don't report the news, instead they fabricate the news. Every show is a satire, they say.

.


----------



## mrPPincer

ok.. *a* Freddie Krueger then (assuming you're right about killed no one yet).


----------



## Nelley

At the pace Hillary Clinton is declining physically (dramatically over the last year) does anyone actually believe this person could serve as POTUS until 2020? Seems unlikely.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Lets face it Pincer: if you had a company and you needed a CEO you would hire a guy just like Trump-there is no way you would be stupid enough to hire Boy Trudeau or Wynne or Crooked Hillary to run it.


I'd add a go-getter like Trudeau any day of the week if I needed a CEO, not so much Wynne, & Trump, forget it, he'd steal the company out from under me and leave the shareholders sucking air after it bankrupted.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> I'd add a go-getter like Trudeau any day of the week if I needed a CEO, not so much Wynne, & Trump, forget it, he'd steal the company out from under me and leave the shareholders sucking air after it bankrupted.


He is a real go-getter-he has his mother's hair and his mother's brains.


----------



## mrPPincer

so far so good


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> so far so good


He is better than Wynne so far so I shouldn't complain.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mrPPincer said:


> *Thousands of Americans illegally flee to Canada over fears of election results*
> http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/...s-of-election-results-1.3751992?autoplay=true


Looks like we will have to build a wall.....


----------



## humble_pie

^^


historically the US has been the source of some of our most talented & successful immigrants. Seriously.

what about all those canadians who've emigrated to the US of A, what'll happen if they all decide to return home. There's a huge canadian ex-pat population living just in california.

.


----------



## sags

My son installs security fencing...........hold off until he starts his own company 

Let's see.........4000 miles is 21,120,000 feet X $100 per foot for the good stuff = $ 2,112,000,000

We can just round it off at $2 Billion and throw in the Alaska part.


----------



## bass player

It has become obvious that Hillary now wears very bulky clothing when she never did before. There have been questions raised that rather than a simple weight gain, that the bulky clothes are to hide either some type of medical devices and/or incontinence clothing. Epipen Man also stays very close and is poised to intervene if required.

John McCain's health was fair game to the Democrats and mainstream media, therefore, Hillary should expect the same scrutiny without crying foul.


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> Lets face it Pincer: if you had a company and you needed a CEO you would hire a guy just like Trump-there is no way you would be stupid enough to hire Boy Trudeau or Wynne or Crooked Hillary to run it.


I wasn't aware that a country is a company bent on profit at any cost... I thought it was about quality of life for all her citizens and good fellowship to the rest of the world. Guess I've been living by the wrong principles.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> Epipen Man also stays very close and is poised to intervene if required.


What allergy does she require an Epipen for? I'm not asking to be insulting or defensive or to get a snarky comeback, I am genuinely curious if she has an anaphylactic allergy.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> It has become obvious that Hillary now wears very bulky clothing when she never did before. There have been questions raised that rather than a simple weight gain, that the bulky clothes are to hide either some type of medical devices and/or incontinence clothing. Epipen Man also stays very close and is poised to intervene if required.
> 
> John McCain's health was fair game to the Democrats and mainstream media, therefore, Hillary should expect the same scrutiny without crying foul.


In the video I posted as she is ready to try to walk to the van her hands ARE BEHIND HER BACK-they actually grab them and bring them forward and she tries to take a step or two and falls forward-more like rigor mortis than a fainting spell-WEEKEND AT BERNIES TWO.


----------



## bass player

indexxx said:


> What allergy does she require an Epipen for? I'm not asking to be insulting or defensive or to get a snarky comeback, I am genuinely curious if she has an anaphylactic allergy.


I have no idea what is in that pin. Hillary's handlers simply claim she's healthy and won't acknowledge its existence.

The story they came up with today is that she was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday. If so, why did they plan a staged scene of a young child running to hug her? It was obviously staged...her security will not let any person run towards Hillary without stopping them. Does she have a new kind of pneumonia that is not contagious to kids? 

More likely, they simply made up another lie. It must be hard to keep track of all the lies by now...


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> What allergy does she require an Epipen for? I'm not asking to be insulting or defensive or to get a snarky comeback, I am genuinely curious if she has an anaphylactic allergy.


Nobody knows for sure why she needs that big doctor by her side 24/7-lots of theories-I am going to place my money at the roulette table on Parkinsons disease. The leading cause of death for Parkinsons patients is pneumonia (which is the latest press release by her team).


----------



## Nelley

This has got to be the most interesting and entertaining political contest I have ever seen-Trump is a larger than life character, but Crooked Hillary in her own way, much like an over the top comic book villain, is almost stealing the show.


----------



## mordko

It's unfortunate that Clinton keeps lying about her health. Then again, to be expected. This election = liars Olympics.


----------



## olivaw

According to Clinton's doctor, she has pneumonia. Her supporters will accept it. Her detractors will not.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Lets face it Pincer: if you had a company and you needed a CEO you would hire a guy just like Trump-there is no way you would be stupid enough to hire Boy Trudeau or Wynne or Crooked Hillary to run it.


Would you hire someone who is totally incapable of running an organization (witness his shambles of a presidential campaign) and has a history of running businesses into the ground? Allegations of fraud?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> He is a real go-getter-he has his mother's hair and his mother's brains.


Even more embarrassing how he crushed his heavyweight opponents Harper/Mulcair? And continues to dominate their parties? 

I think the Conservatives' fatal flaw was underestimating Trudeau. I don't think he's brilliant, but he's definitely not stupid.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> According to Clinton's doctor, she has pneumonia. Her supporters will accept it. Her detractors will not.


Pneumonia is contagious. So, why did she hug a little girl after she was "diagnosed"? Was the scripted "warm moment" worth risking her life?

It's obvious to anyone with basic comprehension skills that Hillary's health is fading fast. Even some of the left media is starting to ask questions.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> According to Clinton's doctor, she has pneumonia. Her supporters will accept it. Her detractors will not.


A couple of days ago it was "an allergy". Only a fool would accept whatever Clinton and her staff are spinning.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Even more embarrassing how he crushed his heavyweight opponents Harper/Mulcair? And continues to dominate their parties?
> 
> I think the Conservatives' fatal flaw was underestimating Trudeau. I don't think he's brilliant, but he's definitely not stupid.


He is not stupid and he was not underestimated. Harper served three terms like Chretien. 4 hasn't happened since Trudeau the Daddy. Trudeau the Boy was helped by lucky timing, nostalgia for the 1980s and CBC. With the help of the latter, he was also very successful at promoting bullshit, like "taking away citizenship from terrorists is racist" and "there is free money for everyone".


----------



## bass player

The real "basket of deplorables" are Hillary's handlers and support staff. She was tossed into the van like a side of beef and her serious health problems are being ignored which is putting her at serous risk. If my mother was in that condition, I would have rushed her to the emergency room.

All they care about is propping her up for "Weekend At Bernie's" moments long enough to make it though the election, then as far as they are concerned she can drop dead. I guarantee that if she dies the day before the election, it will be held back.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> According to Clinton's doctor, she has pneumonia. Her supporters will accept it. Her detractors will not.


Yeah-maybe the video is CGI-it was done by a deplorable-and another thing-Trump's medical letter wasn't signed in triplicate.


----------



## mordko

Like Romney's "47%", Hillary's "deplorables" comment is both true and unfortunate. The target audience knows who the candidate is talking about which helps to motivate them. Yet there is no question that the Trump campaign has attracted a bunch of "deplorables" of the David Duke caliber.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> If my mother was in that condition, I would have rushed her to the emergency room.


Clinton literally collapsed, so I find it hard to believe that she wasn't rushed to the hospital but taken to her daughter's apartment instead. There is definitely more to the story. I'm beginning to feel sorry for Clinton.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> Clinton literally collapsed, so I find it hard to believe that she wasn't rushed to the hospital but taken to her daughter's apartment instead. There is definitely more to the story. I'm beginning to feel sorry for Clinton.


The Democrats are using her to get the presidency. They don't care a bit about her health...only that she doesn't expire before November 8.

The vehicle used to driver her around is a wheelchair equipped handicap van. One can only imagine how much medical equipment it contains.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> The Democrats are using her to get the presidency. They don't care a bit about her health...only that she doesn't expire before November 8.
> 
> The vehicle used to driver her around is a wheelchair equipped handicap van. One can only imagine how much medical equipment it contains.


At this event Hillary was wearing special Zeiss blue lens anti seizure sunglasses-I don't think the MSM noticed.


----------



## SMK

mordko said:


> Like Romney's "47%", Hillary's "deplorables" comment is both true and unfortunate. The target audience knows who the candidate is talking about which helps to motivate them. Yet there is no question that the Trump campaign has attracted a bunch of "deplorables" of the David Duke caliber.


And what both have very much in common, Romney & Clinton, is their inability to connect with people, unlike her charismatic husband.

A look back.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19920320&slug=1482005


----------



## bass player

I just watched a few minutes of CNN. They accept Hillary's diagnosis of pneumonia without question and said "it now explains everything". :stupid:

They then immediately dropped any questions about Hillary and stated that Trump recently had a physical after which he will soon be releasing the numbers. But, of course, Trump's physical will only be "a snapshot in time" and that "we know nothing about his true health".

Pathetic. Hillary collapsed and has shown very visible signs of serious illness for months but we really need to worry about Trump's health instead. :stupid:


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> I just watched a few minutes of CNN. They accept Hillary's diagnosis of pneumonia without question and said "it now explains everything". :stupid:
> 
> They then immediately dropped any questions about Hillary and stated that Trump recently had a physical after which he will soon be releasing the numbers. But, of course, Trump's physical will only be "a snapshot in time" and that "we know nothing about his true health".
> 
> Pathetic. Hillary collapsed and has shown very visible signs of serious illness for months but we really need to worry about Trump's health instead. :stupid:


Yeah-this presidential campaign is really shining a big spotlight on the lack of journalistic integrity of the MSM-even many of the sheep are now waking.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Like Romney's "47%", Hillary's "deplorables" comment is both true and unfortunate. The target audience knows who the candidate is talking about which helps to motivate them. Yet there is no question that the Trump campaign has attracted a bunch of "deplorables" of the David Duke caliber.


Of all the Trump voters, what % are likely worse human beings than Crooked Hillary-just being objective-maybe 2% tops. Tops.


----------



## bass player

For the first time in history, the US may have dead voters voting for a dead candidate...


----------



## mordko

SMK said:


> And what both have very much in common, Romney & Clinton, is their inability to connect with people, unlike her charismatic husband.
> 
> A look back.
> http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19920320&slug=1482005


Yes, Bill can talk and act. Romney sure connected with me; I thought he was the best candidate since Reagan. And in the end he won the non-black vote by a landslide but it wasn't enough.


----------



## SMK

^ Talk, act and more. 

Romney connected with a lot of people, but obviously not enough.


----------



## bass player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4c9TBdD4J0

:biggrin:


----------



## Mukhang pera

**


----------



## andrewf

As it turns out, Hillary has been replaced with an animatronic puppet since 2009. I saw it on Alex Jones.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> As it turns out, Hillary has been replaced with an animatronic puppet since 2009. I saw it on Alex Jones.


You should stick with CNN-it is more your speed.


----------



## andrewf

I don't watch any television news. It's all completely unwatchable.


----------



## olivaw

The childish conjecture about Hillary Clinton's health by the four clowns in this thread is boring. 

There is one aspect of the story that is not boring. Trump said that he had a medical exam and will release when "the numbers come in". If Trump is telling the truth (50/50 with that guy) then it would put pressure on Clinton to release specific test results too. 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/politics/donald-trump-physical-results-doctor-health/index.html

Trump should also release his tax returns.


----------



## sags

Trump's rallies look like an all white grandma and grandpa get together.

The "all whiteness" attracts the white supremacists, but they aren't a significant number in the crowds.

It is impossible to win with just an all white older generation vote and Trump is losing badly to Clinton in all other groups.

Polls now show Clinton ahead by 10 points, which would be a blowout win for her.

Not sure how accurate polls are with such wild swings though.

It looks like if Clinton can make it to Election Day the Democrats will win.

Maybe she should just stay in hotels with balconies and she can wave at the audience..........like the Pope or Michael Jackson.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> The childish conjecture about Hillary Clinton's health by the four clowns in this thread is boring.


Childish conjecture? Clowns?

Why don't you grow up? You're the one that acts like an immature child and/or clown every time your preconceived notions are questioned.


----------



## sags

Thinking back when FDR and others ran election campaigns, they sometimes used a private rail car for whistle stops throughout the US.

That might be an option for Hillary Clinton that won't wear her out so much. 

With both candidates near 70 years of age, the current campaigning of criss-crossing the country 5 times a day has to be exhausting.

At this stage of the election campaign she has to be at least out there meeting the people.

Another thing we don't see anymore is motorcades with the candidate waving and smiling to the crowds. 

I guess the JFK assassination changed all that.


----------



## sags

Michele Obama made some interesting comments about living in the intense security bubble.

She has had pretty much enough of it and longs to be able to just do normal things like a normal person again.

Given her tone, I doubt she would want Barrack Obama to serve another term......even if he were able to do so.

Obama recently said he can't even go for a coffee, without a security detail with him.


----------



## sags

Pneumonia can be pretty persistent, especially among the elderly.

With only something like 57 days left to the election, I am hoping Clinton bounces back quickly.

I have known older people whose pneumonia affects lingered for months and months.

It is just really bad timing for Clinton to get sick at this late date in the election.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Thinking back when FDR and others ran election campaigns, they sometimes used a private rail car for whistle stops throughout the US.
> 
> That might be an option for Hillary Clinton that won't wear her out so much.
> 
> With both candidates near 70 years of age, the current campaigning of criss-crossing the country 5 times a day has to be exhausting.
> 
> At this stage of the election campaign she has to be at least out there meeting the people.
> 
> Another thing we don't see anymore is motorcades with the candidate waving and smiling to the crowds.
> 
> I guess the JFK assassination changed all that.


YEAH SURE-lets go with the ageism slur-both candidates are in the same shape as they are similar in age-NEWSFLASH Sags-there are 95 year olds that are actually in better, fitter condition than Crooked Hillary is at 68.


----------



## sags

Ageism .........is that the word used for the onset of age related illnesses these days ?

Both candidates should be medically checked by a panel of the same doctors and the results made public.

It seems that in this election, neither candidate is anxious to provide evidence of their good health to the public.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Ageism .........is that the word used for the onset of age related illnesses these days ?
> 
> Both candidates should be medically checked by a panel of the same doctors and the results made public.
> 
> It seems that in this election, neither candidate is anxious to provide evidence of their good health to the public.


You have a great combination there Sags-lots of ignorance with lots of arrogance.


----------



## olivaw

Hmmm, mordko used to say that about people who disagreed with him on this forum. 

There is a condition known as the arrogance of ignorance used to describe people like Sarah Palin, It doesn't really work as an insult on a financial forum.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The childish conjecture about Hillary Clinton's health by the four clowns in this thread is boring.
> 
> There is one aspect of the story that is not boring. Trump said that he had a medical exam and will release when "the numbers come in". If Trump is telling the truth (50/50 with that guy) then it would put pressure on Clinton to release specific test results too.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/politics/donald-trump-physical-results-doctor-health/index.html
> 
> Trump should also release his tax returns.


You are like somebody standing out in a hurricane waiting for the official weather report.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Hmmm, mordko used to say that about people who disagreed with him on this forum.
> 
> There is a condition known as the arrogance of ignorance used to describe people like Sarah Palin, It doesn't really work as an insult on a financial forum.


I just thought it was funny that one of the politically correct is now blaming this person's serious health problems on her age-that is called ageism-I thought all of you knew that.


----------



## bass player

Let's add to the conspiracy theories...how did Hillary magically lose 50 pounds in just a few hours and become spry?? And where are her bodyguards that never leave her side?

Look how thin her legs are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGSo6xNhzW8


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Let's add to the conspiracy theories...how did Hillary magically lose 50 pounds in just a few hours and become spry?? And where are her bodyguards that never leave her side?
> 
> Look how thin her legs are:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGSo6xNhzW8


That makes us all want one of those injections from her Dr. Feelgood-he even fixed her "pnuemonia" immediately. I love how they call out-what happened? and Hillary says-New York is great-LOL.


----------



## sags

Arrogance of ignorance, would that be like someone saying they know more about war than generals or have a secret plan to fix everything ?


----------



## Nelley

At this point Crooked Hillary is the Lance Armstrong of politics-who knows what shows up for the debates? She could look like crap, take a 3 minute session with that big doctor of hers and voila-she is ready to rock.


----------



## olivaw

Here is Bass Player's video. It is a video of Hillary Clinton looking healthy and rested. It doesn't gel with bass player's little conspiracy theory so bass needs to expand his theory to incorporate body doubles or robots. 





Looks like Clinton to me. Perhaps Bass Player has never previously watched a video of Clinton that hadn't been preselected by right wing bloggers.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Here is Bass Player's video. It is a video of Hillary Clinton looking healthy and rested. It doesn't gel with bass player's little conspiracy theory so bass needs to expand his theory to incorporate body doubles or robots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Clinton to me. Perhaps Bass Player has never previously watched a video of Clinton that hadn't been preselected by right wing bloggers.


I can't really tell if you are trolling or being sincere. This is the same woman that a few hours earlier looked ready for last rites-and you are trying to convince all this is perfectly commonplace-you see it everyday where you work.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> I can't really tell if you are trolling or being sincere. This is the same woman that a few hours earlier looked ready for last rites-and you are trying to convince all this is perfectly commonplace-you see it everyday where you work.



The stumble video showed her looking weak and stumbling. No objective reporters refers to it as more than that. Your description comes from right wing blogs.

The second video was posted by bass player but he didn't embed it. He admitted that she looks healthy so he needs somebody to provide an updated conspiracy theory. 

Me, I think your health stuff is a desperate (but pointless) attempt to promote a candidate with no policy chops. Not one Trump supporter has posted a single reason to vote for him. The later would be more interesting that the boring health nonsense.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> The stumble video showed her looking weak and stumbling. No objective reporters refers to it as more than that. Your description comes from right wing blogs.


She wasn't weak and stumbling, she appeared near unconsciousness and was being held up by 2 and sometimes 3 people and was virtually carried into the van. Had they let go of her, she would have dropped to the pavement like a sack of potatoes.

And, once again, why did she risk infecting a child with pneumonia?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The stumble video showed her looking weak and stumbling. No objective reporters refers to it as more than that. Your description comes from right wing blogs.
> 
> The second video was posted by bass player but he didn't embed it. He admitted that she looks healthy so he needs somebody to provide an updated conspiracy theory.
> 
> Me, I think your health stuff is a desperate (but pointless) attempt to promote a candidate with no policy chops. Not one Trump supporter has posted a single reason to vote for him. The later would be more interesting that the boring health nonsense.


No disrespect, but I don't see you as a person who is open minded enough to discuss Trump's platform withas an example, look at how difficult it is for you to admit your view of Hillary's health was inaccurate.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> She wasn't weak and stumbling, she appeared near unconsciousness and was being held up by 2 and sometimes 3 people and was virtually carried into the van. Had they let go of her, she would have dropped to the pavement like a sack of potatoes.
> 
> And, once again, why did she risk infecting a child with pneumonia?


Nah, she was just temporarily light headed-it happens to olivaw all the time-she got overheated from wearing a winter Mao coat in the summer.


----------



## sags

Trump's policies in a nutshell............

View attachment 11562


Just pick the policies for today.


----------



## Eclectic12

sags said:


> Michele Obama made some interesting comments about living in the intense security bubble.
> She has had pretty much enough of it and longs to be able to just do normal things like a normal person again ...
> Obama recently said he can't even go for a coffee, without a security detail with him.


I'm not sure she will get her wish unless Obama joins Nixon. So far, he's the only former president to relinquish Secret Service protection in retirement.

As it was Obama who signed legislation to reverse the "for ten years" limit that was setup in 1994 for presidents starting after Jan 1st, 1997 (the previous and current is for lifetime) - it sounds to me like there will be a slowdown in the intensity but that the security detail is going to remain in place.


Cheers


----------



## olivaw

Trump gave a substantive interview on CNBC this morning. It was a softball interview but it is still interesting. While discussing Interest rates he referred to Elizabeth Warren as "Pocahontas". It's a long video and the section about the Fed starts at 16:12.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwi5nNWeuv8


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Trump gave a substantive interview on CNBC this morning, He doesn't find the health While discussing Interest rates he referred to Elizabeth Warren as "Pocahontas". The section about the Fed is the most interesting. It starts at 16:12.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwi5nNWeuv8


Pocahontas (Elizabeth Warren) is a disgrace-no surprise you are a fan-she got a lot of press by pretending to oppose Wall Street corruption and was eventually exposed as just another puppet.


----------



## bass player

CNN is putting quite the spin on Hillary's collapse and is repeating her campaign manger's catch phrase over and over: "she tried to power through the pneumonia" :biggrin: and then they immediately demand full medical disclosure from Trump even though he has shown no signs of illness.

We all know that had Trump collapsed, the footage would have been analyzed endlessly frame by frame and CNN would have demanded that Trump step down. With Hillary, they have to bite their tongue and pretend it's no big deal.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> CNN is putting quite the spin on Hillary's collapse and is repeating her campaign manger's catch phrase over and over: "she tried to power through the pneumonia" :biggrin: and then they immediately demand full medical disclosure from Trump even though he has shown no signs of illness.
> 
> We all know that had Trump collapsed, the footage would have been analyzed endlessly frame by frame and CNN would have demanded that Trump step down. With Hillary, they have to bite their tongue and pretend it's no big deal.


The latest rumour is that the DNC bigwigs are meeting and there is talk of a Biden/Kaine ticket-but right now Hillary will not step aside. They are rightfully concerned-how wild would it be if she goes full catatonic during a debate?


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> The latest rumour is that the DNC bigwigs are meeting and there is talk of a Biden/Kaine ticket-but right now Hillary will not step aside. They are rightfully concerned-how wild would it be if she goes full catatonic during a debate?


If that happens, even the most devoted followers will have to admit she is ill.

She will have no backup...Epipen Man will have to wait off stage and no one will be standing beside her to hold her up or catch her if she loses her balance. Based on what we've seen, she doesn't appear capable of standing on her own for 2 hours, let alone putting in the hours that the job requires.


----------



## mrPPincer

Here's a dumb question for the conspiracy theorists, assuming you're right about epipen man, what's to stop them just rigging up a remote control for him to use for the debates


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Here's a dumb question for the conspiracy theorists, assuming you're right about epipen man, what's to stop them just rigging up a remote control for him to use for the debates


Since photos of him holding it ready to give her an injection really do exist, it's not a conspiracy. Perhaps some people simply need to un-train their automatic reflex to say "conspiracy theory!!" every time they hear something they don't like about a Democrat? 

I sometimes wonder if Democrat supporters take a training course where they are hooked up to electrodes and get zapped unless they say "conspiracy theory" every time they are shown video footage of a Democrat lie. :biggrin:


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Since photos of him holding it ready to give her an injection really do exist, it's not a conspiracy. Perhaps some people simply need to un-train their automatic reflex to say "conspiracy theory!!" every time they hear something they don't like about a Democrat?
> 
> I sometimes wonder if Democrat supporters take a training course where they are hooked up to electrodes and get zapped unless they say "conspiracy theory" every time they are shown video footage of a Democrat lie. :biggrin:


Trivia-CIA files released years ago show that the CIA actually invented the term "Conspiracy Theory" in an attempt to discredit all those who questioned the Warren Report on the JFK assassination. Sheep have been using the term ever since.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Since photos of him holding it ready to give her an injection really do exist, it's not a conspiracy.



do you have such a photograph that you could post? 

i haven't seen any. All i've seen is a blurred-from-enlargement of this rugged, stocky individual holding a very small rod-shaped item in his left hand, an item he'd just taken out of his pocket. That particular video grab photo said it wasn't known whether the item was a pen or a flashlight. It could have even been a miniature camera.

other videos have pointed to other secret service agents with hillary who are searching in their inside jacket pockets. The searched items have to be injection pens, the videos proudly announce, because no other theory will do.

in addition, there's doubt that burly, rugged & stocky is an MD. There's no evidence or proof of that. He looks like a secret service agent, nothing more.

there is some conspiracy babble that burly, rugged & stocky is a much younger & much thinner neurophysiologist, a graduate of Howard U Med. However this MD has surfaced to say that he's not burly.


.


----------



## bass player

Sure humble...it's just a pen or a flashlight that he reaches for when Hillary appears to be in difficulty. :biggrin:

Regarding if he is a doctor or secret service agent...it doesn't matter. You don't need a medical license to give an Epipen injection.

Your assumptions certainly stretch all credibility...


----------



## mrPPincer

LOL democrats hooked up to electrodes, and sheep that can talk, no conspiracy theorists here, nope :biggrin:


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> LOL democrats hooked up to electrodes, and sheep that can talk, no conspiracy theorists here, nope :biggrin:


I was joking...but there is only one side keeps chanting conspiracy theory as if it's an automatic reflex.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> I was joking...but there is only one side keeps chanting conspiracy theory as if it's an automatic reflex.


I know, so was I 

I'd say one 'Crooked Hillary' plus one 'sheep' is worth at least one 'Conspiracy Theorist', but I'd be typing all day if I tried to keep a balance here


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Sure humble...it's just a pen or a flashlight that he reaches for when Hillary appears to be in difficulty.



like i said, would you have a photograph? or better yet, photographs of all those occasions when burly rugged & stocky took the device out of his pocket the way you are claiming?

all i know about is one single hyper-pixellated photograph showing a tiny unidentifiable rod-shaped black object in his left hand.

so please, let's have all those photographs showing all the times that burly has reached for what you're claiming is an epipen injection device.

won't you please also tone down the personal attacks & insults. Surely the situation is best discussed in an accurate manner. Would appreciate.


.



.


----------



## new dog

I am waiting for the debates to see how she holds up before I get a better idea how good or bad her health is. If she can get up there on her own and get animated in delivering her BS for an entire debate, then I might say her health seems to be alright.


----------



## olivaw

Hillary Clinton health conspiracists are known as "Hillary Truthers". They're like the birthers who droned on and one about Barack Obama being a Kenyan born Muslim. Candidate are usually above repeating those theories themselves but Trump is different. He was the de-facto leader of the birther movement. Rumour and innuendo is his stock in trade. *Debunked Hillary Truther theories* are part of his platform. 

The Trump campaign is remaining silent about the pneumonia revelation for now. .Trump said that he has subjected himself to a full medical exam and will release details when the "numbers" come back. Presumably he means the result of blood and urine tests and he may release the report directly. That would pressure Clinton to do the same. (Those of us above a certain age understand blood work and what the numbers mean, having been through them with our docs on an annual basis). 

Maybe Trump will release his tax returns too. --- Nah.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Since photos of him holding it ready to give her an injection really do exist, it's not a conspiracy. Perhaps some people simply need to un-train their automatic reflex to say "conspiracy theory!!" every time they hear something they don't like about a Democrat?
> 
> I sometimes wonder if Democrat supporters take a training course where they are hooked up to electrodes and get zapped unless they say "conspiracy theory" every time they are shown video footage of a Democrat lie. :biggrin:


Seems to be exactly one photo of something that may be a diazepam injector, or might be any number of other black, cylindrical devices. 

This seems to be the only photo that the whole 'epipen' theory is built on. Thin gruel in my book.

http://www.patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/196920_5_.jpg


----------



## sags

Trump will be revealing his medical records on the Dr. Oz show, which seems appropriate on some level.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Seems to be exactly one photo of something that may be a diazepam injector, or might be any number of other black, cylindrical devices.
> 
> This seems to be the only photo that the whole 'epipen' theory is built on. Thin gruel in my book.
> 
> http://www.patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/196920_5_.jpg


The big deal is that it's another health secret to go along with Sunday's announcement of pneumonia only after video footage surfaced that forced them to come clean. She also seems to faint on a regular basis.

Hundreds of thousands of people walk around with epipens, so that in and itself is not a big deal. But, she's almost 69, doesn't look healthy, and faints easily. No one knows what the pen is for or what else is wrong. The job is too far important for a person with poor health to take on.


----------



## new dog

I agree Sags that does seem to be the appropriate place for Trump to reveal it. The only place that would be better would be on the Doctor Phil show.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Hillary Clinton health conspiracists are known as "Hillary Truthers". They're like the birthers who droned on and one about Barack Obama being a Kenyan born Muslim. Candidate are usually above repeating those theories themselves but Trump is different. He was the de-facto leader of the birther movement. Rumour and innuendo is his stock in trade. *Debunked Hillary Truther theories* are part of his platform.
> 
> The Trump campaign is remaining silent about the pneumonia revelation for now. .Trump said that he has subjected himself to a full medical exam and will release details when the "numbers" come back. Presumably he means the result of blood and urine tests and he may release the report directly. That would pressure Clinton to do the same. (Those of us above a certain age understand blood work and what the numbers mean, having been through them with our docs on an annual basis).
> 
> Maybe Trump will release his tax returns too. --- Nah.


I don't think you buy any of this nonsense you are typing-"blood work" will tell the tale-jeez louise what a joke.


----------



## new dog

I agree she doesn't look good Bass and Nelley but don't you think the debates will be where you can truly gage her health. If she drops out or tanks this is where we will find out. Maybe I am wrong though and there is a way to mask it and prop her up but I don't know if that is possible.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> The big deal is that it's another health secret to go along with Sunday's announcement of pneumonia only after video footage surfaced that forced them to come clean. She also seems to faint on a regular basis.
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of people walk around with epipens, so that in and itself is not a big deal. But, she's almost 69, doesn't look healthy, and faints easily. No one knows what the pen is for or what else is wrong. The job is too far important for a person with poor health to take on.


Also the woman had a serious concussion a couple of years ago that required 6 months of medical treatment and has appeared in public (at hearings) wearing prism glasses for brain damage.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> do you have such a photograph that you could post?
> 
> i haven't seen any. All i've seen is a blurred-from-enlargement of this rugged, stocky individual holding a very small rod-shaped item in his left hand, an item he'd just taken out of his pocket. That particular video grab photo said it wasn't known whether the item was a pen or a flashlight. It could have even been a miniature camera.
> 
> other videos have pointed to other secret service agents with hillary who are searching in their inside jacket pockets. The searched items have to be injection pens, the videos proudly announce, because no other theory will do.
> 
> in addition, there's doubt that burly, rugged & stocky is an MD. There's no evidence or proof of that. He looks like a secret service agent, nothing more.
> 
> there is some conspiracy babble that burly, rugged & stocky is a much younger & much thinner neurophysiologist, a graduate of Howard U Med. However this MD has surfaced to say that he's not burly.
> 
> 
> .


Nothing personal, but you are not at all informed on this subject-and now you want us to spoon feed you-try google or youtube.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> I agree she doesn't look good Bass and Nelley but don't you think the debates will be where you can truly gage her health. If she drops out or tanks this is where we will find out. Maybe I am wrong though and there is a way to mask it and prop her up but I don't know if that is possible.


I agree that the debate should be telling. Possibly the only "help" she can get may be some conveniently placed commercial breaks.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Rarely, on more than one occasion over the last many, many years, the same sort of thing’s happened to her when she got severely dehydrated,” Bill Clinton told Rose about Dem presidential nominee Hillary Clinton. 

If only they could find a cure for dehydration.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "Rarely, on more than one occasion over the last many, many years, the same sort of thing’s happened to her when she got severely dehydrated,” Bill Clinton told Rose about Dem presidential nominee Hillary Clinton.
> 
> If only they could find a cure for dehydration.


I think Bill Clinton was the guy that chopped down the cherry tree because he could not tell a lie.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "Rarely, on more than one occasion over the last many, many years, the same sort of thing’s happened to her when she got severely dehydrated,” Bill Clinton told Rose about Dem presidential nominee Hillary Clinton.
> 
> If only they could find a cure for dehydration.


Today on CNN Hillary stated that it only happened once before. They can't keep their stories straight... :biggrin:


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Nothing personal, but you are not at all informed on this subject-and now you want us to spoon feed you-try google or youtube.


Exactly what mordko would have said. Nelley and mordko couldn't possibly the same poster though. Mordko is an islamophobe. Nelley is a Hillaryphobe. They both just happen to have a lot of time on their hands to post the same thing over and over and over again. :emmersed:


----------



## sags

A cardboard cutout of Hillary Clinton would be a better President than Trump.

It isn't what Clinton can do. It is what Trump "might" do.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> It isn't what Clinton can do. It is what Trump "might" do.


No, it's what Hillary "has" done. What if's don't count.


----------



## olivaw

nah, it's about what Trump might do. Hillary Clinton is a known quantity. Trump is the wild card.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> The big deal is that it's another health secret to go along with Sunday's announcement of pneumonia only after video footage surfaced that forced them to come clean. She also seems to faint on a regular basis.
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of people walk around with epipens, so that in and itself is not a big deal. But, she's almost 69, doesn't look healthy, and faints easily. No one knows what the pen is for or what else is wrong. The job is too far important for a person with poor health to take on.



Bass are you backing off here?

upthread you posted that there are "photos" - notice the plural - of a medical doctor holding an epipen ready to give hillary clinton an injection.

you said that these photos - notice the plural - "really do exist." You said they prove that there is no conspiracy over hillary clinton's health, because here are the photos - notice the plural - showing a medical specialist who is ready to inject her with medication at all times.

understandably, we are asking you for those photos. I've only seen one that could be placed even remotely near that category. It's the video grab shot of a burly, rugged male holding a tiny cylinder-shaped object in his left hand. It's unclear what the object is. It could be anything. A flashlight. A cigarette holder. A spy camera. A bomb.


.


----------



## mrPPincer

Trump is the oldest president candidate in the history of the USA.

And he's the one starting health rumours. :stupid:


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Trump is the oldest president candidate in the history of the USA.
> 
> And he's the one starting health rumours. :stupid:


68 and 70 is basically a tie. The difference is that the 68-year old has a history of fainting spells, dehydration, a serious concussion, and often seems confused and worn out, while the other has no noticeable/visible symptoms and still appears to be perfectly healthy.

Hillary is an old 68 and Trump is a young 70. If you could choose a medical history between each for yourself or a parent, whose would you take?


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Hillary is an old 68 and Trump is a young 70. If you could choose a medical history between each for yourself or a parent, whose would you take?



this seems like a spurious question, because voters are not voting strictly for a medical record. It's what goes with the medical record that's alarming.

trump could be 50 years of age but he'd still sport orange dyed hair, a motor mouth, racist views & impulse-ridden behaviour.


.


----------



## mrPPincer

If being the one habitually starting BS rumours is part of the package, then I'd have to think about it, might be a coin-flip.


----------



## olivaw

A number of posters have asked why anybody would support Trump. His supporters declined to answer. Trump's platform statements come across as incoherent rambling but he has given us a few hints.

- American generals bad. Fire em. 
- Janet Yellen bad. Fire her.
- Mexicans bad. Wall good.
- Putin good
- torture good
- defence spending good
- tariffs good


----------



## indexxx

andrewf said:


> Would you hire someone who is totally incapable of running an organization (witness his shambles of a presidential campaign) and has a history of running businesses into the ground? Allegations of fraud?


Also, would you hire a bully? Trump has his good points, but he is definitely a bully. Bullies make the worst leaders.


----------



## capricorn

from: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...documents-hillary-clinton-s-interview-n642126

She said she didn't know the difference between different levels of classification but that she took them all "seriously."
Clinton was also questioned about training for handling classified information, but she couldn't recall receiving any training.

A former first lady, a state secretary and a long time senator does not know how to handle classified information is very hard to believe. 
it is very hard to digest these responses. actually not so hard if you are already put off by Trump and then Clinton gets a free pass.

Maybe we will see Brexit kind of surprise where media was all caught on wrong foot. The race no longer looks one sided anymore.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> this seems like a spurious question, because voters are not voting strictly for a medical record. It's what goes with the medical record that's alarming.
> 
> trump could be 50 years of age but he'd still sport orange dyed hair, a motor mouth, racist views & impulse-ridden behaviour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


No offense Humble, but you sound like a bigot-Trump's physical appearance should not be a factor in this contest, neither should Clinton's physical attractiveness or lack thereof-the first thing you mention about Trump's faults is his hair-you definitely have the KKK mindset.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> A number of posters have asked why anybody would support Trump. His supporters declined to answer. Trump's platform statements come across as incoherent rambling but he has given us a few hints.
> 
> - American generals bad. Fire em.
> - Janet Yellen bad. Fire her.
> - Mexicans bad. Wall good.
> - Putin good
> - torture good
> - defence spending good
> - tariffs good


Maybe people don't answer your questions on Trump because of your childish nature-look at what you just wrote-would you respond to that nonsense?


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> Also, would you hire a bully? Trump has his good points, but he is definitely a bully. Bullies make the worst leaders.


Actually Hillary Clinton is the person famous for bullying underlings (except Huma)-this is no secret.


----------



## new dog

capricorn said:


> from: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...documents-hillary-clinton-s-interview-n642126
> 
> She said she didn't know the difference between different levels of classification but that she took them all "seriously."
> Clinton was also questioned about training for handling classified information, but she couldn't recall receiving any training.
> 
> A former first lady, a state secretary and a long time senator does not know how to handle classified information is very hard to believe.
> it is very hard to digest these responses. actually not so hard if you are already put off by Trump and then Clinton gets a free pass.
> 
> Maybe we will see Brexit kind of surprise where media was all caught on wrong foot. The race no longer looks one sided anymore.


This is a good thought out response capricorn it shows that you can think beyond your candidate preference. When I go to vote I also take into account what a party or individual says and is doing. I will not vote for someone no matter what they do, just because they are left, right a woman or whatever.


----------



## new dog

On the bully front, apparently they are both good at it, so that part I believe is a wash.


----------



## olivaw

One writer said that Clinton lost her temper sometimes. Anger may unintentionally cause pain but normal people consider it a momentary lapse and try to improve. 

Trump was a natural bully in school and he doesn't appear to have evolved. He enjoys hurting people.


----------



## humble_pie

bass could we please have your photos - note the plural.

you've said many times that your photographs - note the plural - prove that hillary clinton has a medical handler standing by at all public appearances with epiPen ready in hand to inject her with medication.

please it's time to show us those photos - note the plural.

as far as the world knows, only one grainy video grab shows a hulking secret service agent walking near clinton with a tiny rod-shaped black object held in his left hand.

as mentioned, the tiny object could be anything. Pepper spray or other chemical spray to disable an attacker. A pen. A camera. 


.


----------



## bass player

humble:

The man has been identified as a doctor who specializes in epilepsy and neurology:

http://ijr.com/2016/09/688840-hilla...-newsletter&utm_medium=owned&utm_source=email

For some reason, Hillary needs a doctor continually by her side. Coincidentally, the blue sunglasses she was wearing are often prescribed to reduce the frequency of seizures for people with epilepsy...exactly what the doctor by her side specializes in.


----------



## Pluto

It is possible Hilary is diabetic and the perceived epipen is insulin. Her quick recovery the other day doesn't seem like pneumonia, rather, it fits the profile of receiving an insulin injection.


----------



## SMK

Pluto said:


> It is possible Hilary is diabetic and the perceived epipen is insulin. Her quick recovery the other day doesn't seem like pneumonia, rather, it fits the profile of receiving an insulin injection.


After the secrecy since Friday's diagnosis, I doubt a lie was told.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> humble:
> 
> The man has been identified as a doctor who specializes in epilepsy and neurology:
> 
> http://ijr.com/2016/09/688840-hilla...-newsletter&utm_medium=owned&utm_source=email
> 
> For some reason, Hillary needs a doctor continually by her side. Coincidentally, the blue sunglasses she was wearing are often prescribed to reduce the frequency of seizures for people with epilepsy...exactly what the doctor by her side specializes in.


bass player, did you read your own link? Direct quote from your page..


> Reddit says, "keep looking." That's not our guy.


Looking at the photos they are not the same guy; he is not dr Okunola.

I was going to point out the differences, but easier to just quote from the reddit page that your page links to..
(sorry about the lengthy quote, this is the entire comments section from the reddit page).


> all 15 comments
> sorted by: best
> 
> [–]MaddieEsquire 12 points 1 month ago
> 
> That's not him, lips, eyebrows and proportions way off. Keep looking though.
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]CumblastExtravaganzaMI 5 points 1 month ago
> 
> Top of his head looks different too. Not as round as the one on the bottom
> 
> permalinkembedparent
> 
> [–]Im_A_CookWA 1 point 1 month ago
> 
> Ears too. Bottom pic they stick out more.
> 
> permalinkembedparent
> 
> [–]TheManWhoPandersCAN 2 points 1 month ago
> 
> You sure? It looks like him at about 10 years younger.
> 
> permalinkembedparent
> 
> [–]CevanUSA 6 points 1 month ago
> 
> Known alias: Doc Choc
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]PojihutSCT 5 points 1 month ago
> 
> Head shape seems off.
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]DrRallyThong 3 points 1 month ago
> 
> Conditions he commonly treats:
> 
> http://doctor.webmd.com/doctor/4533166/oladotun-okunola-md-conditions-procedures?lid=5058751
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]WhiteLivesMatter79MN 3 points 1 month ago
> 
> That's NOT Doc Choc.
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]Me_Tarzan_You_GainsTX 2 points 1 month ago
> 
> Washington post Identified him as Todd Madison
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]nrjk 2 points 1 month ago
> 
> She should hire the doctor that took care of Michael Jackson. I hear he's a genius with medications...
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]MAGAinstrumentalityTX 1 point 1 month ago
> 
> The plot thickens.
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]jdovejrFL 1 point 1 month ago
> 
> Weapons grade autism.
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]Mrs_FoneboneVA 1 point 1 month ago
> 
> http://www.neurosciencecenternj.com/
> 
> Here's the Center's page.
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]Mrs_FoneboneVA 1 point 1 month ago
> 
> http://theralphretort.com/report-cl...-neurologist-dr-oladotun-okunola-jig-8008016/
> 
> more images/views of the him, for comparison, plus blurred image of his badge. Can anyone clean that up?
> 
> permalinkembed
> 
> [–]MaddieEsquire 1 point 1 month ago
> 
> Nah... Google other images... Biggest difference is the lips. Dr. dude has thin, curvy lips... This guy has very full lips. Cheekbones different, eyebrows very different also.


----------



## mrPPincer

Also bass player, on your linked page, the cylindrical device is shown to be a flashlight; he was using it in one of the clips, and it shone a beam of light on a guy's shoulder.

He could be using it as a pointer for other members of the team.


----------



## mrPPincer

Or simply to see into dark corners; anyways, mystery solved; it's a flashlight.


----------



## mrPPincer

Thanks to bass player for the links (the dude with the flashlight is just a Secret Service dude doing his job).

(I can't believe how far this one got, I even got sucked in, and it's in exactly the same category as the Obama birth certificate BS).

Epipen "seizure doctor" conspiracy theory debunked..
https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-hillary-clintons-seizure-doctor-with-diazepam-auto-pen.t7821/


----------



## mrPPincer

Just somebody on reddit posing a speculation that the guy was maybe a certain doctor, which quickly gets slapped down by everybody that can compare a photo, yet a month later people are still claiming a positive ID all over the internets..


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> humble:
> 
> The man has been identified as a doctor who specializes in epilepsy and neurology:
> 
> http://ijr.com/2016/09/688840-hilla...-newsletter&utm_medium=owned&utm_source=email
> 
> For some reason, Hillary needs a doctor continually by her side. Coincidentally, the blue sunglasses she was wearing are often prescribed to reduce the frequency of seizures for people with epilepsy...exactly what the doctor by her side specializes in.


The guy has been identified as the head of Hillary's secret service detail, Todd Madison (http://www.trunews.com/article/hillarys-handler-is-secret-service-agent-todd-madison). A picture of a doctor who looks similar is not evidence they are one and the same person. Do you think this doctor has been undercover with the Clinton's since the '90s? I think neurologists have better things to do.


----------



## olivaw

What matters is the team that the candidate puts together. Clinton has assembled a proven team. Trump has assembled beginners.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> humble:
> 
> The man has been identified as a doctor who specializes in epilepsy and neurology:
> 
> http://ijr.com/2016/09/688840-hilla...-newsletter&utm_medium=owned&utm_source=email
> 
> For some reason, Hillary needs a doctor continually by her side. Coincidentally, the blue sunglasses she was wearing are often prescribed to reduce the frequency of seizures for people with epilepsy...exactly what the doctor by her side specializes in.




he's not any kind of *doctor by her side.* That conspiracy theory was busted last week.

he's a secret service agent & he looks like a damn good one.

repeat: the husky gentleman is *not* Dr Okunola, an MD whose hitherto pristine good name has unfortunately been dragged all over the youtube mud by crackered up conspiracy artists.

bass you & Nelley are making fools of yourselves with your never-ending pseudo medico gibberish. Why not do as dogcom suggests & simply wait for the facts to emerge.

after all, we're here in canada. Our main concerns with the US election are the foreign trade & military consequences, not much more, really.


.


----------



## olivaw

The *New York Post did an investigation into the Trump Foundation*. The foundation has been caught breaking numerous IRS and other regulations. Specific allegations include:

- Trump using the foundation as a way to spend other people's money and claim credit for himself. 
- Spending $20,000 on a six foot tall painting of himself
- Offering gifts to real charities that rent Trump facilities
- Using foundation funds to make a political donation to Pam Bondi in exchange for her dropping the investigation of Trump University
- Declaring charitable donations that were never made (i.e. lying to the IRS). 
- Paid off promises that Trump made on the Celebrity Apprentice
- Paid the prize money in the "Trump pays yours bills" contest.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The *New York Post did an investigation into the Trump Foundation*. The foundation has been caught breaking numerous IRS and other regulations. Specific allegations include:
> 
> - Trump using the foundation as a way to spend other people's money and claim credit for himself.
> - Spending $20,000 on a six foot tall painting of himself
> - Offering gifts to real charities that rent Trump facilities
> - Using foundation funds to make a political donation to Pam Bondi in exchange for her dropping the investigation of Trump University
> - Declaring charitable donations that were never made (i.e. lying to the IRS).
> - Paid off promises that Trump made on the Celebrity Apprentice
> - Paid the prize money in the "Trump pays yours bills" contest.


Since you brought up the subject, why don't you read this expert's analysis of the criminal Clinton Foundation and do us a little book report http://charlesortel.com/


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Since you brought up the subject, why don't you read this expert's analysis of the *criminal ** Clinton Foundation and do us a little book report http://charlesortel.com/


*Again, you popped in an adjective that you have yet to substantiate, please provide specifics.. unsubstantiated allegations don't count.

This link goes to some theorist's dry blog where he writes up opinion pieces.. just what exactly is it that you see of value here, and maybe we could discuss that particular point?


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> *Again, you popped in an adjective that you have yet to substantiate, please provide specifics.. unsubstantiated allegations don't count.
> 
> This link goes to some theorist's dry blog where he writes up opinion pieces.. just what exactly is it that you see of value here, and maybe we could discuss that particular point?


Ortel is not a "theorist"-the guy has an impressive track record of uncovering fraud-Pincer is just a "theorist" and a lousy one at that IMO.


----------



## mrPPincer

Every single page is stamped *SUBJECT TO DISCLAIMER*.
He's covering his *** from a lawsuit.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Every single page is stamped *SUBJECT TO DISCLAIMER*.
> He's covering his *** from a lawsuit.


Oh brother-he wasn't given access to their books-NOBODY has been given access-NO AUDIT HAS BEEN DONE. Jeez.


----------



## olivaw

Charles Ortel's personal blog is not credible. He follows Zero Hedge, Free Republic and Pookie's Toons. 

The *Washington Post* is a real news organization. The article about the Trump Foundation is based on hard evidence and research.

The Clinton Foundation is a registered charity that satisfies all legal reporting requirements. The books are readily available. 

The Trump Foundation is not a real charity. It does not have to satisfy legal reporting requirements. The Washington Post used IRS filings to substantiate their findings.


----------



## mrPPincer

The IRS doesn't audit on command from the far righties (or lefties).

If there were any solid evidence of wrongdoing I'm sure they'd have a look into it.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Charles Ortel's personal blog is not credible. He follows Zero Hedge, Free Republic and Pookie's Toons.
> 
> The *Washington Post* is a real news organization. The article about the Trump Foundation is based on hard evidence and research.
> 
> The Clinton Foundation is a registered charity that satisfies all legal reporting requirements. The books are readily available.
> 
> The Trump Foundation is not a real charity. It does not have to satisfy legal reporting requirements. The Washington Post used IRS filings to substantiate their findings.


The Washington Post is a joke. Bezos loses money on it and could care less-it is simply a political mouthpiece for corruption.


----------



## olivaw

Trump's campaign manager became testy when asked if Trump would release his tax returns in exchange for a 5M donation to veterans. She asked CNN if they are calling Trump a liar when he says that he can't release his taxes due to the audit (the IRS and numerous tax lawyers have said that Trump can release his tax returns at any time). 






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpG4esJ4Ycw


----------



## bass player

Okay, the guy is a secret service agent. Let's move along and look at the lies, omissions, and improper behavior has occurred over Hillary's "pneumonia" diagnosis in the last few days:

- supposedly diagnosed Friday
- collapses Sunday and they try to sneak her out, and did not even advise her press people
- a random person videos her collapse outside. Would anyone have been told had this not happened?
- secret service protocol requires a trip to the nearest ER. This was deliberately not done. She was taken to her daughter's apartment where her own doctor could look at her in private.
- secret service protocol also required NYPD escort. This was deliberately not done either.
- only after the video becomes public does the Clinton team make a statement: "She was dehydrated"
- then they later admit she was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday
- when questioned, neither Bill or Hillary can't get their stories straight on how many times she has passed out like that

So...no one on Hillary's team was concerned that she was basically unconscious. Had they been concerned, she would have been rushed to the ER. This leads one to believe that this is not an uncommon occurrence, and also that they did not want hospital staff to look at her.

So, what is she really hiding?


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Okay, the guy is a secret service agent. Let's move along and look at the lies, omissions, and improper behavior has occurred over Hillary's "pneumonia" diagnosis in the last few days:
> 
> - supposedly diagnosed Friday
> - collapses Sunday and they try to sneak her out, and did not even advise her press people
> - a random person videos her collapse outside. Would anyone have been told had this not happened?
> - secret service protocol requires a trip to the nearest ER. This was deliberately not done. She was taken to her daughter's apartment where her own doctor could look at her in private.
> - secret service protocol also required NYPD escort. This was deliberately not done either.
> - only after the video becomes public does the Clinton team make a statement: "She was dehydrated"
> - then they later admit she was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday
> - when questioned, neither Bill or Hillary can't get their stories straight on how many times she has passed out like that
> 
> So...no one on Hillary's team was concerned that she was basically unconscious. Had they been concerned, she would have been rushed to the ER. This leads one to believe that this is not an uncommon occurrence, and also that they did not want hospital staff to look at her.
> 
> So, what is she really hiding?


The best one is where she goes totally "deer in the headlights" and the big black guy whispers in her ear-you are OK-keep talking-and the zombie mumbles to herself-keep talking-and manages to reset the tape. Jeez.


----------



## olivaw

*Trump Foundation Under Investigation*

Following articles in the *Washington Post* and Associated Press describing serious impropriety at the Trump Foundation, the New York attorney general has *opened an inquiry* into the organization. Allegations include a prohibited political gift; buying a US$12,000 football helmet and a US$20,000 portrait of Trump; reporting five non-existent donations; using the charity to pay prize money in a contest; misrepresenting the source of funds and using the money to cover TV promises by Donald Trump.



> A source familiar with the matter confirmed Schneiderman’s remark and said the New York Attorney General’s office “has opened an inquiry into the Trump Foundation based on troubling transactions that have recently come to light.”



http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...al-opens-inquiry-into-trump-foundation-228125
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/t...-investigation-by-new-york-ag/article/2601738
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...gation-into-trump-foundation/article31867745/
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/09/...-opened-investigation-into-trump-fo/21471549/

Trump has reportedly not donated a penny of his own money to the foundation since 2008.


----------



## Nelley

The latest is that Crooked Hillary's handlers are considering dropping out of the first scheduled debate-her "pneumonia" won't allow it (hopefully that little girl she was hugging survived).


----------



## bass player

Hillary and her team are hiding something serious and those who support her must be doing mental gymnastics trying to convince themselves that she's just fine. No matter what evidence comes along they just continue to be in total denial.

She could drop dead on the street and we'd get the "The parrot isn't dead" skit from Monty Python


----------



## Nelley

This doctor is convincing-I will increase my bet on Crooked Hillary and Parkinsons Disease https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XtIzH9HoC8


----------



## bass player

Plenty of other doctors also feel the same way. Hillary's health should be a concern for the media and for others, but the left media all read the script and they all called Hillary a hero for "powering through her illness". The broken secret service protocol was not mentioned a single time, and all her past health "incidents" have been ignored or whitewashed. They act like she's a fit and healthy woman in her prime.

The total lack of objectivity is sickening. CNN is in full Trump attack mode tonight and was going after his foundation, but of course, the horribly corrupt Clinton Foundation was not even mentioned even once.


----------



## sags

It has become impossible for any news media to get a straight forward answer to any question, where the surrogate response isn't a comparison to the "sins" of the opponent. It is a " but your nominee is worse" debate.

Ask Trump surrogates about his foundation, and they question the Clinton Foundation.

Ask Clinton surrogates about her health, and they question Trump's failure to make his tax returns public.

The opposing sides more closely resemble a schoolyard argument than a debate on who is bet suited for the office of President.

The world watches and shakes it's head in disbelief. 

As Canada discusses our own electoral process, I can only think..............just don't change it to even remotely resemble the US system.

Their example has proven it is untenable and is no longer able to function.

Regardless of who wins the Presidency, they will meet stiff opposition to anything they propose regardless of what it is.

The US political system has dissolved from representation of the will of the people to which of the two political parties will propose the legislation that the other side will automatically oppose, regardless of the merit of the proposal.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> The best one is where she goes totally "deer in the headlights" and the big black guy whispers in her ear-you are OK-keep talking-and the zombie mumbles to herself-keep talking-and manages to reset the tape. Jeez.


Hillary is supposed to be the zombie? She gives articulate, cogent analyses of complex geopolitical situations (whether you agree with her policies or not). Trump cannot, and frequently babbles incoherently. See this interview with Larry King, where he shared such pearls as "Uranium is big, big stuff because it means the ultimate." Trump talks a lot, and usually fails to say anything coherent. Build a wall turns out to just be a metaphor for selection immigration enforcement.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Hillary is fine. She went to her daughter's apartment, took a rest for an hour and a half and she is like a completely different person.


----------



## olivaw

Birthers were convince that Trump's investigators were going to uncover the secret behind a plot to launch a Kenyan Muslim into the Whitehouse. There never were any Trump investigators. He was taking advantage of disgruntled right wing voters - individuals who refused to accept the legitimacy of Obama's presidency.

Now those same theorists gleefully muse about Hillary Clinton being struck down by a debilitating disease. They're unable to see the weakness of their own candidate. They don't care about the fraud charges against Trump University or the investigation into financial irregularities at the Trump Foundation. His opaque debt to foreign interests means nothing. His history of ripping off small suppliers is irrelevant. They dream that Hillary Clinton will be rendered frail by a medical tragedy. Hillary Clinton is favoured to become the next president of the United States of America and it makes them incorrigible.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> It has become impossible for any news media to get a straight forward answer to any question, where the surrogate response isn't a comparison to the "sins" of the opponent. It is a " but your nominee is worse" debate.
> 
> Ask Trump surrogates about his foundation, and they question the Clinton Foundation.
> 
> Ask Clinton surrogates about her health, and they question Trump's failure to make his tax returns public.
> 
> The opposing sides more closely resemble a schoolyard argument than a debate on who is bet suited for the office of President.
> 
> The world watches and shakes it's head in disbelief.
> 
> As Canada discusses our own electoral process, I can only think..............just don't change it to even remotely resemble the US system.
> 
> Their example has proven it is untenable and is no longer able to function.
> 
> Regardless of who wins the Presidency, they will meet stiff opposition to anything they propose regardless of what it is.
> 
> The US political system has dissolved from representation of the will of the people to which of the two political parties will propose the legislation that the other side will automatically oppose, regardless of the merit of the proposal.


We're most definitely shaking our heads in disbelief and revulsion, but buckle up, there are more surprises to come from both sides. 

Such powerful country with just these 2 long-time corrupt septuagenarians left standing (no offense.) We live in interesting times.

A classic bully who's unable to take even the most meaningless criticism. The irony is that Trump would be in the lead if only he had shown some decorum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d32577Hom08


----------



## Nelley

SMK said:


> We're most definitely shaking our heads in disbelief and revulsion, but buckle up, there are more surprises to come from both sides.
> 
> Such powerful country with just these 2 long-time corrupt septuagenarians left standing (no offense.) We live in interesting times.
> 
> A classic bully who's unable to take even the most meaningless criticism. The irony is that Trump would be in the lead if only he had shown some decorum.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d32577Hom08


IMO this "Bully" slur on Trump is total B/S-Clinton is a classic bully. A bully is someone who picks on the weak and fears the strong-there has never been a US presidential candidate who went after the strong and connected like this guy-that is why he is doing so well.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Birthers were convince that Trump's investigators were going to uncover the secret behind a plot to launch a Kenyan Muslim into the Whitehouse. There never were any Trump investigators. He was taking advantage of disgruntled right wing voters - individuals who refused to accept the legitimacy of Obama's presidency.
> 
> Now those same theorists gleefully muse about Hillary Clinton being struck down by a debilitating disease. They're unable to see the weakness of their own candidate. They don't care about the fraud charges against Trump University or the investigation into financial irregularities at the Trump Foundation. His opaque debt to foreign interests means nothing. His history of ripping off small suppliers is irrelevant. They dream that Hillary Clinton will be rendered frail by a medical tragedy. Hillary Clinton is favoured to become the next president of the United States of America and it makes them incorrigible.


I am sure you will agree that assuming Hillary Clinton has struggled with Parkinsons Disease for over 10 years and it is getting worse, along with the Levodopa side effects, it is extremely irresponsible for her to be trying to install herself in that position.


----------



## SMK

Nelley said:


> IMO this "Bully" slur on Trump is total B/S-Clinton is a classic bully. A bully is someone who picks on the weak and fears the strong-there has never been a US presidential candidate who went after the strong and connected like this guy-that is why he is doing so well.


All politicians are bullies to certain extent, but some are more "politically correct."

Trump is doing better than expected, because as Clinton said after her "deplorables" comment, Americans (excluding the reference to racists and bigots) are "desperate for change", a change she certainly does not represent.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> I am sure you will agree that assuming Hillary Clinton has struggled with Parkinsons Disease for over 10 years and it is getting worse, along with the Levodopa side effects, it is extremely irresponsible for her to be trying to install herself in that position.


Nelley, I've been struggling with headaches for a few years. My WBC is normal, PSA normal, head and torso MRI nominal, HDL is slightly low. Three different physicians have been unable to diagnose my condition in the last 18 months.

What is it that I'm struggling with? Also, what do you prescribe to correct the condition.

My family and I thank you very much in advance.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Nelley, I've been struggling with headaches for a few years. My WBC is normal, PSA normal, head and torso MRI nominal, HDL is slightly low. Three different physicians have been unable to diagnose my condition in the last 18 months.
> 
> What is it that I'm struggling with? Also, what do you prescribe to correct the condition.
> 
> My family and I thank you very much in advance.


Not enough info-but you should experiment with your diet-since you ruled out all the other stuff it is likely something you are sticking in your mouth.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Nelley, I've been struggling with headaches for a few years. My WBC is normal, PSA normal, head and torso MRI nominal, HDL is slightly low. Three different physicians have been unable to diagnose my condition in the last 18 months.
> 
> What is it that I'm struggling with? Also, what do you prescribe to correct the condition.
> 
> My family and I thank you very much in advance.


Also, it is quite common to be dehydrated-it won't cause Crooked Hillary symptoms, but it definitely can give you headaches.


----------



## Spudd

TomB19 said:


> Nelley, I've been struggling with headaches for a few years. My WBC is normal, PSA normal, head and torso MRI nominal, HDL is slightly low. Three different physicians have been unable to diagnose my condition in the last 18 months.
> 
> What is it that I'm struggling with? Also, what do you prescribe to correct the condition.
> 
> My family and I thank you very much in advance.


I know you were being facetious but have you tried physiotherapy? I learned through my bout with TMJ issues that sometimes headaches can be caused by musculoskeletal issues and if you correct your posture and work on stretching it can be resolved. Check out Egoscue's book 'Pain Free' for a generic prescription for headache exercises, or see your local physiotherapist. It can't hurt and it might help! I'm a big advocate for physio ever since it resolved my TMJ pain which had been plaguing me for years.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump has been toning down the 'Looney Tunes' and acting more 'Presidential' since his trip to Mexico. Scott Adams predicted this 6 months ago as part of Trump's 'Master Persuader' strategy. It seems to be working as he is climbing in the polls.


----------



## olivaw

Polls are narrowing but it is difficult to know if there is a trend towards Trump. Nate Silver, who correctly predicted the last two presidential elections, says 



> My best guess on the effect of the weekend’s news, based on what the model shows so far, is that the race is continuing to trend moderately toward Trump, when the momentum toward him might have stalled out if not for the events of the weekend. But we can’t rule out a more acute shift toward Trump or that the “Hillary’s bad weekend” meme is a false alarm — there isn’t quite enough data yet.


http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-has-clintons-bad-weekend-moved-the-polls/


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Polls are narrowing but it is difficult to know if there is a trend towards Trump. Nate Silver, who correctly predicted the last two presidential elections, says
> 
> 
> 
> http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-has-clintons-bad-weekend-moved-the-polls/


Yeah-Nate is a real expert-he is the guy that said it was ridiculous to think Trump even had a chance to win the nomination. Jeez.


----------



## olivaw

A Morning Consult poll released on Wednesday revealed that 44% of registered voters believe Clinton's health would negatively affect her ability to serve as president, while 43% said it would not and 13% held no opinion.

http://www.businessinsider.com/poll-voters-hillary-clinton-health-2016-9

I can't help but think that Nelley and Bass' repetitive health posts might have convinced some of those 43%. Sadly, they mistakenly came to a Canadian forum. Their repetitive pearls of wisdom were never seen by those registered American voters.


----------



## TomB19

Spudd said:


> I know you were being facetious but have you tried physiotherapy? I learned through my bout with TMJ issues that sometimes headaches can be caused by musculoskeletal issues and if you correct your posture and work on stretching it can be resolved. Check out Egoscue's book 'Pain Free' for a generic prescription for headache exercises, or see your local physiotherapist. It can't hurt and it might help! I'm a big advocate for physio ever since it resolved my TMJ pain which had been plaguing me for years.


Thank you, Spudd. I appreciate it.


----------



## sags

LOL...............

View attachment 11578


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> I can't help but think that Nelley and Bass' repetitive health posts might have convinced some of those 43%. Sadly, they mistakenly came to a Canadian forum. Their repetitive pearls of wisdom were never seen by those registered American voters.


Yeah, we're the only 2 people that think Hillary is ill...that's why her doctors felt the need to release public statements trying to convince people that she is healthy. :highly_amused:

More accurately, you and sags are the only 2 who think she's healthy. :very_drunk:


----------



## Nelley

Cenk of the Young Turks (who hates Trump with a passion) gives his guesstimate for the election-Crooked Hillary 272, Trump 266-things are not looking good for Baby Jane Hudson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1YNiSHrHQg


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Yeah, we're the only 2 people that think Hillary is ill...that's why her doctors felt the need to release public statements trying to convince people that she is healthy. :highly_amused:
> 
> More accurately, you and sags are the only 2 who think she's healthy. :very_drunk:


Who cares what I think, I can't vote. Get yourself to an American forum and post your speculative medical diagnosis. No doubt you'll convince millions. :abnormal:


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Who cares what I think, I can't vote. Get yourself to an American forum and post your speculative medical diagnosis. No doubt you'll convince millions. :abnormal:


Or maybe Bass Player could stay here and you could hit the road Einstein.


----------



## andrewf

Trying to convince a 95% Canadian audience to vote Trump is not very effective activism.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Yeah, we're the only 2 people that think Hillary is ill...that's why her doctors felt the need to release public statements trying to convince people that she is healthy. :highly_amused:
> 
> More accurately, you and sags are the only 2 who think she's healthy. :very_drunk:


Even if you were right and Clinton is deathly ill, Americans only effectively have two choices........an unhealthy Clinton or a mentally unbalanced Trump.

Many Republicans are stepping up and saying Trump would be a grievous mistake. Colin Powell's leaked emails join the chorus today.

It seems to me that some have trouble identifying the least dangerous of those two options.

If Clinton wins and gets sick, VP Tim Kaine takes over as President.

If Trump wins and starts rumbling around the world causing chaos, stock markets tank and people start building bomb shelters.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Or maybe Bass Player could stay here and you could hit the road Einstein.


You too, get yourself to an American forum. Impress em with your little _billionaire banker puppeteer hypothesis_. Off you go ......nthego:


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> Trying to convince a 95% Canadian audience to vote Trump is not very effective activism.


lol!

Yeah. Trump is gone. He is losing to a weak candidate. It's pretty clear by now it will be Hillary.


----------



## new dog

I would think most here no matter what side or not they are on do not think anything is clear in this election. This election is like the stock market no one knows which direction it will go in the short term and everything up to election day is now short term at this point.

Another thing have you ever seen this amount of conspiracy theories right or wrong before an election. Also the amount of hidden stuff by both candidates, all the baggage like e-mails, being ill, foundation fraud, media control, foreign government involvement or concern and on and on. 

We are definitely in some kind of turning point here in history and I hope it all goes as well as possible.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> I would think most here no matter what side or not they are on do not think anything is clear in this election. This election is like the stock market no one knows which direction it will go in the short term and everything up to election day is now short term at this point.
> 
> Another thing have you ever seen this amount of conspiracy theories right or wrong before an election. Also the amount of hidden stuff by both candidates, all the baggage like e-mails, being ill, foundation fraud, media control, foreign government involvement or concern and on and on.
> 
> We are definitely in some kind of turning point here in history and I hope it all goes as well as possible.


I agree that this election has been brutal on the MSM and the sheep-pretty well every single thing they have ridiculed or denied has blown up right in their faces.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Yeah. Trump is gone. He is losing to a weak candidate. It's pretty clear by now it will be Hillary.


Hillary wasn't always seen as a weak candidate. She has a solid campaign organization, donations are high and she has a ton of experience. Her problem is a shortage of charisma, the lack of a explanation for the email server and an inability to draw attention away from Trump. Her campaign all-but-admitted the last: 


> Our campaign readily admits that running against a candidate as controversial as Donald Trump means it is harder to be heard on what you aspire for the country’s future and it is incumbent on us to work harder to make sure voters hear that vision.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Hillary wasn't always seen as a weak candidate. She has a solid campaign organization, donations are high and she has a ton of experience. Her problem is a shortage of charisma, the lack of a explanation for the email server and an inability to draw attention away from Trump. Her campaign all-but-admitted the last:


Everyone knows why she had a private server. You seem to be the only person unable to grasp the obvious.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Everyone knows why she had a private server. You seem to be the only person unable to grasp the obvious.


You missed the entire point. Poor comprehension or just being an arse?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> You missed the entire point. Poor comprehension or just being an arse?


Look-if you see someone running out of a bank with a mask on, a gun in their hand and a bag in their hand, only Olivaw would ponder "the lack of an explanation for the email server". You sound like the mother of a convict with a long rap sheet.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Look-if you see someone running out of a bank with a mask on, a gun in their hand and a bag in their hand, only Olivaw would ponder "the lack of an explanation for the email server". You sound like the mother of a convict with a long rap sheet.


And Nelley doubles down on the idiocy.  The discussion was not about the email server. It was about the state of the race. 

Nelley and bass would love to dominate the conversation with their simplistic conspiracy theories but some of us prefer more substantive topics. Perhaps they are simply unable to grasp the topic at hand.


----------



## Eclectic12

andrewf said:


> Trying to convince a 95% Canadian audience to vote Trump is not very effective activism.


LOL ... I had no idea that so many Americans and Canadians with dual citizenship were following CMF to make it worth the effort. :rolleyes2:


Cheers


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> And Nelley doubles down on the idiocy.  The discussion was not about the email server. It was about the state of the race.
> 
> Nelley and bass would love to dominate the conversation with their simplistic conspiracy theories but some of us prefer more substantive topics. Perhaps they are simply unable to grasp the topic at hand.


Yea, it's all one big massive conspiracy theory. Only you know the real truth as shown by your well thought out and intelligent comments. Everyone has learned so much from the in-depth knowledge you demonstrate. You are beyond brilliant...


----------



## capricorn

_ Colin Powell's leaked emails join the chorus today _

This is same Powell who was part of the administration and cheerleader for going into Iraq that resulted in hundreds of *thousands* humans getting killed for no fault of their own.

we should put all these opinion in context. 

People should decide for themselves rather than what Powell or some other elitist think.

I think Trump will do less damage than what Iraq / Libya / 2008 financial crisis did. 

we survived all those. I am sure we will survive Trump too (if that comes to pass).


----------



## TomB19

capricorn said:


> I think Trump will do less damage than what Iraq / Libya / 2008 financial crisis did.


No doubt.

People want to hear a presidential candidate say they will fix this or fix that but almost no one seems to understand a president cannot introduce legislation. The president is in the executive branch. The leader of the house is the guy with the most power to legislate.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> No doubt.
> 
> People want to hear a presidential candidate say they will fix this or fix that but almost no one seems to understand a president cannot introduce legislation. The president is in the executive branch. The leader of the house is the guy with the most power to legislate.


Obama just issues an Executive Order to bypass the rules...


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Obama just issues an Executive Order to bypass the rules...


Indeed. The very first president to do so. ... or, at least, the first president to do so while being black. lol!


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Indeed. The very first president to do so. ... or, at least, the first president to do so while being black. lol!


LOL. GW Bush issued 291 executive orders. 

Obama has only issued 235 so far. Some say he is lazy.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> LOL. GW Bush issued 291 executive orders.
> 
> Obama has only issued 235 so far. Some say he is lazy.


You concentrate on the number of orders and not the magnitude or the illegality. The Supreme Court has ruled against him on several occasions. He uses Executive Orders like a petty dictator. Obamacare is just one of many. You should do some reading on Executive Order 13603, for example.


----------



## olivaw

13603 is The National Defense Resources Preparedness executive order. Conspiracy theorists were convinced that Obama was imposing martial law. 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ndrp.asp


----------



## sags

Most of the concern about Trump doesn't revolve around his economic policies.........if he actually has any, but his suitability as commander in chief.

This is a man who said the following only days ago...........

_Donald Trump said Friday night that he would shoot Iranian vessels "out of the water" if they bother American ships.

"Iran, when they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats and they make gestures at our people that they shouldn't be allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water," the GOP presidential candidate said at a campaign rally in Pensacola, Florida._

http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-shoot-iranian-ships-2016-9

This is a man who would have the sole authority to launch nuclear weapons if he is elected as President. 

No wonder Colin Powell and most other generals are fearful of Trump holding that kind of power.

It is revealing that Trump supporters never talk about his policies. 

Saying he is going to "fix everything" and "it will be great" isn't an actual plan they can discuss.

Instead of discussing Trump's non-existent policies on the economy, immigration and foreign affairs........they talk about Hillary Clinton.

Trump has screwed the "little guys" his whole life. He has bragged about it his whole life.

This is a guy who says the minimum wage is too high, tax rates should be cut for the wealthy, and he thinks Putin is a stand up guy.

Do Trump supporters really believe he has changed his life long habits and beliefs in the past 12 months ?

Trump supporters should heed an aged old warning.........be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> 13603 is The National Defense Resources Preparedness executive order. Conspiracy theorists were convinced that Obama was imposing martial law.
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ndrp.asp


You talk about Snopes like it is Moses with the tablets-that website puts out B/S all the time. Jeez.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Most of the concern about Trump doesn't revolve around his economic policies.........if he actually has any, but his suitability as commander in chief.
> 
> This is a man who said the following only days ago...........
> 
> _Donald Trump said Friday night that he would shoot Iranian vessels "out of the water" if they bother American ships.
> 
> "Iran, when they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats and they make gestures at our people that they shouldn't be allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water," the GOP presidential candidate said at a campaign rally in Pensacola, Florida._
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-shoot-iranian-ships-2016-9
> 
> This is a man who would have the sole authority to launch nuclear weapons.
> 
> No wonder Colin Powell and most other generals are fearful of Trump holding that kind of power.
> 
> It is revealing that Trump supporters never talk about his policies.
> 
> Saying he is going to "fix everything" and "it will be great" isn't an actual plan they can discuss.
> 
> Instead of discussing Trump's non-existent policies on the economy, immigration and foreign affairs........they talk about Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Trump has screwed the "little guys" his whole life. He has bragged about it his whole life.
> 
> This is a guy who says the minimum wage is too high, tax rates should be cut for the wealthy, and he thinks Putin is a stand up guy.
> 
> Do Trump supporters really believe he has changed his life long habits and beliefs in the past 12 months ?
> 
> Trump supporters should heed an aged old warning.........be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.


The irony is that the voters wanted Bernie Sanders-instead they got Crooked Hillary the sick demented criminal-aint democracy grand.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> You talk about Snopes like it is Moses with the tablets-that website puts out B/S all the time. Jeez.


LOL. Don't whine about the website. Contact them and demonstrate the validity of your conspiracy theories. 
http://www.snopes.com/cgi-bin/comments/webmail.asp


----------



## sags

I wouldn't be surprised that many Republican leaders have held back because they didn't believe Trump had any chance to win.

If it appears Trump might actually win, Republicans will come out in force against him.

I think they may even be waiting until it is too late for Trump to get on the ballot in all the US states, before they boot him off the Republican Party ticket, to ensure that he won't be on the ballot at all.

It would be an unprecedented strategy, but Republicans who love their country are going to have to make a tough decision.

t will be an interesting final couple of months.


----------



## indexxx

Just curious if the Trump supporters here also support building a wall at the Mexican border. If so, why? If not, why not? And if not, how to correlate supporting the man's bid but not policies such as this?

Not looking for defensive comments but rather genuine input as I am curious.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

First of all I think Trump would make a terrible President.

Second, I don't see how anyone can deny that the US has the right to defend their borders and to decide who should be allowed in and who shouldn't.

In order to do this they have the right to build a wall, a fence, or to take what steps they think best.

Mexico is already planning a wall on their southern border to keep out illegal immigrants from El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala.

Israel already has a wall to keep out Palestinians

Various European countries are strengthening their borders 

But when Trump proposes the same thing everyone loses their minds.


----------



## new dog

I agree with what you say Rusty and yes it does appear Trump would make a bad president. What I can't understand is how anyone here would think Hillary would make a good president after all she has done. If she was a candidate for PM here in Canada I certainly wouldn't vote for her knowing she was corrupt and backed by wall street. Yet people here on the forum would overlook all of that and vote for here anyway.

Canada would certainly go downhill and end up looking just like the US does now if we voted like that up here in Canada.


----------



## capricorn

indexxx said:


> Just curious if the Trump supporters here also support building a wall at the Mexican border. If so, why? If not, why not? And if not, how to correlate supporting the man's bid but not policies such as this?
> 
> Not looking for defensive comments but rather genuine input as I am curious.


I do not believe Trump will build the wall. Or he can build the wall. The task is just too big and I think it would be a distraction.
but, no harm as a politician to harp on this if this is the cause that gets your vote out.
do I support building a wall? 
yes.
it does not have to be a brick wall.
it can be a fence.
but, borders should be guarded (if they are perceived to be porous to illegal human or goods trafficking).
does it have to be a priority? No.
it can be along the lines of closing the gitmo, immigration reform and affordable health care. all were supported by Dems but Obama picked one (Affordable health care a.ka. Obamacare) to put his energy behind it.

so, when the time comes, Trump can decide if this will be a priority.
if one is built, would it make a difference to anyone. I do not know.
but, I am not against it in principle.

I am a Trump supporter because I am in "anyone but Hillary" camp. Do I expect anything different from Trump. Not much. both parties are beholden to special interests and Presidents can only do so much without congress cooperation.


----------



## bass player

indexxx said:


> Just curious if the Trump supporters here also support building a wall at the Mexican border. If so, why? If not, why not? And if not, how to correlate supporting the man's bid but not policies such as this?
> 
> Not looking for defensive comments but rather genuine input as I am curious.


What's wrong with a wall? The US already has a fence along a lot of the border, so why is a wall any different?


----------



## SMK

Rusty O'Toole said:


> First of all I think Trump would make a terrible President.
> 
> Second, I don't see how anyone can deny that the US has the right to defend their borders and to decide who should be allowed in and who shouldn't.
> 
> In order to do this they have the right to build a wall, a fence, or to take what steps they think best.
> 
> Mexico is already planning a wall on their southern border to keep out illegal immigrants from El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala.
> 
> Israel already has a wall to keep out Palestinians
> 
> Various European countries are strengthening their borders
> 
> But when Trump proposes the same thing everyone loses their minds.


More accurately, Israel built the wall to keep out terrorists and suicide bombers since the multiple intifadas killed thousands of Israelis when restaurants and buses were being blown-up on a regular, sometimes daily basis. Considered illegal construction by International Courts, the result was the significant decline of suicide bombers.

Trump is neither alone nor completely off the wall when it comes to border security. Has anything tried before worked to solve the problems?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE8DD6q6EF0


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> LOL. Don't whine about the website. Contact them and demonstrate the validity of your conspiracy theories.
> http://www.snopes.com/cgi-bin/comments/webmail.asp


If you haven't figured out yet that the info you are being fed daily isn't accurate, you aren't ever going to figure it out IMO.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> Just curious if the Trump supporters here also support building a wall at the Mexican border. If so, why? If not, why not? And if not, how to correlate supporting the man's bid but not policies such as this?
> 
> Not looking for defensive comments but rather genuine input as I am curious.


No foreigner can legally simply walk into the USA. I know-walls aren't PC-but if the MSM starts cheerleading it watch how fast the sheep change their tune.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> First of all I think Trump would make a terrible President.
> 
> Second, I don't see how anyone can deny that the US has the right to defend their borders and to decide who should be allowed in and who shouldn't.
> 
> In order to do this they have the right to build a wall, a fence, or to take what steps they think best.
> 
> Mexico is already planning a wall on their southern border to keep out illegal immigrants from El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala.
> 
> Israel already has a wall to keep out Palestinians
> 
> Various European countries are strengthening their borders
> 
> But when Trump proposes the same thing everyone loses their minds.


Only the sheep get frightened-no logical person fears a wall to keep out unwanted persons from entering illegally.


----------



## olivaw

Nobody in Canada cares about the wall. It will be expensive and it won't work, but Americans are free to waste billions of dollars on their wall. It's what the wall represents. 

Trump's preamble to the wall speech says that Mexico is sending rapists, murders and drug dealers. Followed by the weak: "And some of them, I assume, are good people". Sounded .... racist.

Trump keeps saying that Mexico is going to pay for the wall. When former Mexican president Vincente Fox said that Mexico won't pay, Trump told his cheering crowds that the wall just got 10 feet higher. When the current president Enrique Peña Nieto informed Trump that Mexico won't pay, Trump remained silent. That's comedic.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Nobody in Canada cares about the wall. It will be expensive and it won't work, but Americans are free to waste billions of dollars on their wall. It's what the wall represents.


The wall represents a secure border. Why is that bad? They already have a fence to keep people from illegally crossing, so I'd love to hear your explanation of why a wall is somehow worse than a fence.


----------



## olivaw

Bass, Why must you respond to so many of my posts with a comment that misses the point? 

I doubt many Canadians care about the wall. It will be expensive and it won't work. Hispanics may view it as a monument to racism. Beyond that, it's not going to mean a thing to us in Canada. 

The problems with Trump go far beyond the wall.


----------



## bass player

Are you incapable of answering a simple question? Why is the wall considered racist and a fence isn't?

C'mon...think hard and give us an answer.


----------



## sags

The other day it was reported the US is refusing entry to Canadians who admit to ever smoking pot anytime in their lives. 

Anyone who admits to ever smoking pot in their lives, is then banned from the US for life.

For a family visiting Disneyland it is an inconvenience. For a transportation company hauling goods across the border it is a bigger problem.

Minister Ralph Goodale is going to discuss the situation with US Homeland Security officials. 

If Trump tightens the border even more, it will further affect trade between the US and Canada.

It isn't about the "wall". It is about Trump's overall immigration and homeland security ideas, which would "harden" all borders.

It has taken years to relax tensions at the US/Canada border, after it was falsely reported the 9-11 terrorists entered the US through Canada.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Are you incapable of answering a simple question? Why is the wall considered racist and a fence isn't?
> 
> C'mon...think hard and give us an answer.


Trump made it racist with his comments on Mexicans as rapists and murderers as the reason to build a wall.

Had Trump made the same comments about Mexicans and said he was building a fence, it would have been racist as well.

It is Trump's reasoning for the wall, not the wall itself that is racist.


----------



## sags

In my opinion, the biggest concern people should have about Trump would be his temperament, penchant for talking or acting without thinking, and the unrestrained control of the nuclear codes. This is a dangerous world and a shooting war with a foreign country is the last thing anyone should want...........yet Trump advocates for "blowing them out of the water" as his solution to problems.

I can't think of any more important reason than that for not voting for Trump.

There have been the same concerns in the past about Presidential nominees. 

Barry Goldwater was an ultra-hawk and it was a big reason he was defeated in that election.

Ronald Reagan was also considered worrisome, but he was a puppet of Wall Street and they directed his every decision.

With Donald Trump it appears that nobody can constrain him for long and he doesn't believe he needs advice from anyone.

His answers to several problems have been the immediate use of military force.

That makes him more dangerous than any previous Presidential nominee.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> In my opinion, the biggest concern people should have about Trump would be his temperament, penchant for talking or acting without thinking, and the unrestrained control of the nuclear codes. This is a dangerous world and a shooting war with a foreign country is the last thing anyone should want...........yet Trump advocates for "blowing them out of the water" as his solution to problems.
> 
> I can't think of any more important reason than that for not voting for Trump.


Bill Clinton gave nukes to North Korea, Hillary was involved in a deal to sell uranium to Russia, and Obama gave nukes to Iran.

And, you are somehow more worried about what Trump "might" do than what the Democrats have already done? :stupid:


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> If Trump tightens the border even more, it will further affect trade between the US and Canada.
> 
> It isn't about the "wall". It is about Trump's overall immigration and homeland security ideas, which would "harden" all borders.
> 
> It has taken years to relax tensions at the US/Canada border, after it was falsely reported the 9-11 terrorists entered the US through Canada.


Interesting insight Sags, and one that I had not considered. 

Beyond the border control issue are his protectionist tendencies. Trump might well decide to impose tariffs on Canadian goods and we'd be pretty powerless to stop him. 

Of course, the President can't act unilaterally but it appears that Speaker Ryan is ready to fall into line if Trump wins.


----------



## sags

All false examples.

No US President, Republican or Democrat has ever given nuclear weapons to another country.

Some countries,....... Israel, Pakistan, Russia, China, and India have or are suspected of having nuclear weapons, but the US is not in the habit of providing them. 

North Korea is building a nuclear weapon, and Iran is suspected of trying to build one...........and those are important issues that Trump would have to deal with.

How would he deal with Iran or North Korea ? Would he blast away..........despite it might start a war with Russia or China ?

The world is more complex than Trump can handle. It involves intense negotiations with partners who agree that action must be taken.

The US will never attack North Korea without China's covert blessing.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Nobody in Canada cares about the wall. It will be expensive and it won't work, but Americans are free to waste billions of dollars on their wall. It's what the wall represents.
> 
> Trump's preamble to the wall speech says that Mexico is sending rapists, murders and drug dealers. Followed by the weak: "And some of them, I assume, are good people". Sounded .... racist.
> 
> Trump keeps saying that Mexico is going to pay for the wall. When former Mexican president Vincente Fox said that Mexico won't pay, Trump told his cheering crowds that the wall just got 10 feet higher. When the current president Enrique Peña Nieto informed Trump that Mexico won't pay, Trump remained silent. That's comedic.


You are such a good little Social Justice Warrior-why don't you list all the public figures Olivaw has accused of being "racist" who aren't white men. I forgot-according to the sheep you can only be "racist" if you are a white man.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Trump made it racist with his comments on Mexicans as rapists and murderers as the reason to build a wall.
> 
> Had Trump made the same comments about Mexicans and said he was building a fence, it would have been racist as well.
> 
> It is Trump's reasoning for the wall, not the wall itself that is racist.


Trump is racist, Trump is sexist, Trump is an islamophobe, Trump is not transgender friendly BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> All false examples.
> 
> No US President, Republican or Democrat has ever given nuclear weapons to another country.
> 
> Some countries,....... Israel, Pakistan, Russia, China, and India have or are suspected of having nuclear weapons, but the US is not in the habit of providing them.
> 
> North Korea is building a nuclear weapon, and Iran is suspected of trying to build one...........and those are important issues that Trump would have to deal with.
> 
> How would he deal with Iran or North Korea ? Would he blast away..........despite it might start a war with Russia or China ?
> 
> The world is more complex than Trump can handle. It involves intense negotiations with partners who agree that action must be taken.
> 
> The US will never attack North Korea without China's covert blessing.


You are the one that thinks a person with advanced Parkinsons disease can handle these complex problems. Jeez.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> Bill Clinton gave nukes to North Korea


You forgot to mention Jimmy Carter.


----------



## Nelley

Re Trump and nukes, he is the only person that wants diplomatic peace with Russia (the major nuclear adversary)-the MSM tells the sheep peace with Russia is evil-and they swallow it.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> You are the one that thinks a person with advanced Parkinsons disease can handle these complex problems. Jeez.


Hillary doesn't have advanced Parkinsons. Nothing to worry about. 

Trump has NPD. It'sdangerous to give an individual with NDP too much power. Plenty to worry about there. 

(Bass, feel free not to reply to any of my pots).


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Hillary doesn't have advanced Parkinsons. Nothing to worry about.
> 
> Trump has NPD. It'sdangerous to give an individual with NDP too much power. Plenty to worry about there.
> 
> (Bass, feel free not to reply to any of my pots).


Crooked Hillary is the poster child for NDP-her and Bill have stolen at least hundreds of millions, possibly billions through their "charity" scam and still she is pushing for more. Jeez.


----------



## bass player

It turns out Hillary's campaign has been stealing money from mostly poor people...and keeping every single one of the thefts below $100 to avoid fraud charges:

"Hillary Clinton’s campaign is stealing from her poorest supporters by purposefully and repeatedly overcharging them after they make what’s supposed to be a one-time small donation through her official campaign website, multiple sources tell the Observer.

The overcharges are occurring so often that the fraud department at one of the nation’s biggest banks receives up to 100 phone calls a day from Clinton’s small donors asking for refunds for unauthorized charges to their bankcards made by Clinton’s campaign. One elderly Clinton donor, who has been a victim of this fraud scheme, has filed a complaint with her state’s attorney general and a representative from the office told her that they had forwarded her case to the Federal Election Commission.

The Hillary for America campaign will overcharge small donors by repeatedly charging small amounts such as $20 to the bankcards of donors who made a one-time donation. However, the Clinton campaign strategically doesn’t overcharge these donors $100 or more because the bank would then be obligated to investigate the fraud.

“We don’t investigate fraudulent charges unless they are over $100,” the fraud specialist explained. “The Clinton campaign knows this, that’s why we don’t see any charges over the $100 amount, they’ll stop the charges just below $100. We’ll see her campaign overcharge donors by $20, $40 or $60 but never more than $100.” 

http://observer.com/2016/09/exclusi...n-systematically-overcharging-poorest-donors/

I know, I know...it's just another right wing conspiracy!!!


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> I know, I know...it's just another right wing conspiracy!!!


Do you remember when right wing nut jobs, such as yourself, were convinced that Barack Obama wasn't an American? lol!

Keep beating the drum. It's highly entertaining.


----------



## TomB19

Then there was: Obama is a terrorist, Obama is the anti-Christ,...

One of my personal favorites was a Chuck Norris gem that voting for Obama would bring 1000 years of darkness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ud3pK5Wa90

How about Obama being too Christian? Remember Reverend Wright? ... then he was a Muslim. lmao!

Each time, it's absolutely real and it's absolutely dire. The Republican base must smoke a lot of weed.

Hey bass player... did you hear a siren, just now?


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Do you remember when right wing nut jobs, such as yourself, were convinced that Barack Obama wasn't an American? lol!
> 
> Keep beating the drum. It's highly entertaining.


Hundreds of people had money stolen by Hillary, every single theft of which was just below the level where the banks have to report fraud, and your response is to insult me for pointing it out? I know 5-year old children who act more mature.

Why don't you defend her actions Tom? Are you man enough?


----------



## TomB19

Am I man enough? Jump onto Chat Roulette and I'll show you my junk. lol!

The Observer is hardly an objective source, nor are the dozen, or so, other web sites that pick up every one of these ridiculous stories without doing any fact checking.

One of the positive things in this election, IMO, is that a lot of Republicans are going to vote for Hillary and a lot of Democrats will vote for Trump. That's a good start. I love to see people thinking for themselves, instead of blindly following.

It would be a dream come true if we could stop talking about the total crap coming from the mentally deranged and start putting more time into issues, philosophies, goals, etc. There is a lot of good content that will never get any air time because we are busy discussing Hillary's pneumonia or Trump's latest brain fart. This is not a way to better a country.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> ... your response is to insult me for pointing it out?


I did not intend to insult. To me, it's an objective fact that you are a nut job. I'm not joking when I write that I do not wish to condemn or insult you.

There are legions of people like you, who will post every conspiracy theory to float out of the garbage, absolutely certain it is true, despite all previous conspiracy theories proving to be completely unfounded.

I've long thought that objectivity is the best tool in market analysis. I've also wondered how massively non-objective individuals, such as yourself, can do well in the markets. I know some other folks who are just as non-objective as you and they do very well. In fact, they seem to do as well as objective people. Perhaps the objectivity is compartmentalized to specific subject matter?

The reality is, you come across as someone who will believe whatever you want and you really, really, really want to believe every negative comment that is ever written about Hillary.


----------



## new dog

Bass this is what I meant when I posted above that Hillary supporters don't care about fraud or anything she does even if it is against poor people. I may have supported Trump but when I found out a few things and the thing that supporters have to sign and so on, I decided I wouldn't vote for him, if it were ever possible for me to do so. I haven't heard one of them except for Mordko say that she would make a bad corrupt president, except I couldn't vote for Trump.

She will sign the TPP after some silly concession and her corporate donors can then get to work exploiting all the countries that signed it. I am sure sags will be delighted that the TPP will be signed. I sure don't want to hear him complaining about free trade when Hillary his hero signs it. Also people here should certainly not complain about corruption in government whether in Canada or the US when they don't seem to care about it in their comments here.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I did not intend to insult. To me, it's an objective fact that you are a nut job. I'm not joking when I write that I do not wish to condemn or insult you.
> 
> There are legions of people like you, who will post every conspiracy theory to float out of the garbage, absolutely certain it is true, despite all previous conspiracy theories proving to be completely unfounded.
> 
> I've long thought that objectivity is the best tool in market analysis. I've also wondered how massively non-objective individuals, such as yourself, can do well in the markets. I know some other folks who are just as non-objective as you and they do very well. In fact, they seem to do as well as objective people. Perhaps the objectivity is compartmentalized to specific subject matter?
> 
> The reality is, you come across as someone who will believe whatever you want and you really, really, really want to believe every negative comment that is ever written about Hillary.


You have to laugh when a sheep who uses the term "conspiracy theory" every time he gets confused starts talking about objectivity.


----------



## TomB19

new dog said:


> ...people here should certainly not complain about corruption in government whether in Canada or the US when they don't seem to care about it in their comments here.


Maybe we are only concerned about real corruption and don't concern ourselves with made up stuff?


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Maybe we are only concerned about real corruption and don't concern ourselves with made up stuff?


If Crooked Hillary steals the bag of cash and the MSM ignores it, did she really steal the bag of cash?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> You are the one that thinks a person with advanced Parkinsons disease can handle these complex problems. Jeez.


You're worried about Hillary's hypothetical cognitive impairment (despite her obvious ability to hold her own in debates), yet you support Trump, who is incapable to stringing together a handful of coherent thoughts. He has a chronic case of stupidity and intellectual laziness.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> You're worried about Hillary's hypothetical cognitive impairment (despite her obvious ability to hold her own in debates), yet you support Trump, who is incapable to stringing together a handful of coherent thoughts. He has a chronic case of stupidity and intellectual laziness.


No joke-I am not sure at this point in her life Crooked Hillary could handle Trudeau Junior in a debate-she better have somebody competent barking commands on the other end of that earpiece she wears.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> No joke-I am not sure at this point in her life Crooked Hillary could handle Trudeau Junior in a debate-she better have somebody competent barking commands on the other end of that earpiece she wears.


She handled everything Republicans could throw at her during the endless Benghazi hearings. lol!


----------



## new dog

Nelley said:


> If Crooked Hillary steals the bag of cash and the MSM ignores it, did she really steal the bag of cash?


She could have stolen the cash but she is part of the establishment. So if she goes in front of the judge he rules no crime committed. You are not part of the establishment so you get charged. So in reality she is not corrupt and just following the rules. In government if she is elected she is free to pillage, plunder and steal from home and all over the world.


----------



## olivaw

Dogcom, I have been reading your posts since the old Webring days (or maybe the Cdn business forum days). I've always considered you to be an open minded individual who welcomes a variety of opinions. It's admirable, but open-mindedness should be tempered wth a healthy skepticism when your are dealing with the likes of bass or Nelley. People like that don't engage in honest discussion. They float partisan conspiracy theories. When the lie is exposed (as it always is) they float a new conspiracy theory.

There is no more truth in this allegation about Clinton than there was in the last dozen allegations posted by either of those two.


----------



## new dog

Olivaw both candidates have been very shady now and in the past. I don't think you would find anywhere close to the smoke you see here surrounding Canadian candidates, we just don't seem to tolerate it up here. Thank goodness we don't have choices like this, it is good being a Canadian.


----------



## indexxx

olivaw said:


> Nobody in Canada cares about the wall. It will be expensive and it won't work, but Americans are free to waste billions of dollars on their wall. It's what the wall represents.
> 
> Trump's preamble to the wall speech says that Mexico is sending rapists, murders and drug dealers. Followed by the weak: "And some of them, I assume, are good people". Sounded .... racist.
> 
> Trump keeps saying that Mexico is going to pay for the wall. When former Mexican president Vincente Fox said that Mexico won't pay, Trump told his cheering crowds that the wall just got 10 feet higher. When the current president Enrique Peña Nieto informed Trump that Mexico won't pay, Trump remained silent. That's comedic.


But isn't one of his big positions that Mexico 'will' pay for this wall?


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> But isn't one of his big positions that Mexico 'will' pay for this wall?


One of the reasons Trump is doing so well is that the public is absolutely nauseated with the mentality that they have to take care of every group of people but Americans-you see it here with Olivaw's rant-Americans must pay more to take care of Mexico-if they don't want to pay more, that is now "racism"-the American public are sick and tired of people like Olivaw and Crooked Hillary.


----------



## indexxx

Thank you for the reply however that is not what I was meaning. It's my understanding that Donald Trump has stood on a policy of building a wall at the border, grown more emphatic about it, and is insisting that Mexico pay for it. There was no reference to any perceived need to take care of persons from a foreign country; my point in asking was how he intends to enforce both his desire for said wall and his insistence that another government pay for his wish. It seems unreasonable to me to make a choice to do something like that and want someone else to foot the bill. Again, not trying to be inflammatory- I am interested in Trump's logic behind this.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

indexxx said:


> Thank you for the reply however that is not what I was meaning. It's my understanding that Donald Trump has stood on a policy of building a wall at the border, grown more emphatic about it, and is insisting that Mexico pay for it. There was no reference to any perceived need to take care of persons from a foreign country; my point in asking was how he intends to enforce both his desire for said wall and his insistence that another government pay for his wish. It seems unreasonable to me to make a choice to do something like that and want someone else to foot the bill. Again, not trying to be inflammatory- I am interested in Trump's logic behind this.


https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/pay-for-the-wall

Google 'how will Trump pay for the wall' and this is the first link.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> Thank you for the reply however that is not what I was meaning. It's my understanding that Donald Trump has stood on a policy of building a wall at the border, grown more emphatic about it, and is insisting that Mexico pay for it. There was no reference to any perceived need to take care of persons from a foreign country; my point in asking was how he intends to enforce both his desire for said wall and his insistence that another government pay for his wish. It seems unreasonable to me to make a choice to do something like that and want someone else to foot the bill. Again, not trying to be inflammatory- I am interested in Trump's logic behind this.


Mexico is extremely dependent upon the USA-as an example Mexico is by far the big employment winner out of NAFTA-Mexico can complain, but short of climbing out under the economic thumb of the USA there is literally nothing Mexico can do but complain-Mexico needs the USA 10 times more than the USA needs Mexico.


----------



## indexxx

i agree completely butI don't see how that correlates with paying for the wall. Would it be trump using that fact as leverage, threatening to change policy if they don't pay for it?


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> i agree completely butI don't see how that correlates with paying for the wall. Would it be trump using that fact as leverage, threatening to change policy if they don't pay for it?


We will see-he hasn't won the election yet-this Mexico paying for a wall isn't exactly as challenging as climbing K2.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/pay-for-the-wall
> 
> Google 'how will Trump pay for the wall' and this is the first link.




this appears to be recycled mcCain-palin from the 2008 election. The US will block remittances by mexican workers stateside back to their families in mexico. This pressure will be sufficient to force the mexican president to do anything the US desires.

this version recites that trump won't have to actually block the remittance payments, not quite yet. He'll just invoke the patriot's act, then phone mexican president enrique pena nieta with a threat to block. Evidently - goes the 2016 version - mr. pena nieta is expected to promptly hurl himself onto his knees to start begging.

.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> It turns out Hillary's campaign has been stealing money from mostly poor people...and keeping every single one of the thefts below $100 to avoid fraud charges:
> 
> "Hillary Clinton’s campaign is stealing from her poorest supporters by purposefully and repeatedly overcharging them after they make what’s supposed to be a one-time small donation through her official campaign website, multiple sources tell the Observer."
> 
> http://observer.com/2016/09/exclusi...n-systematically-overcharging-poorest-donors/
> 
> I know, I know...it's just another right wing conspiracy!!!




bass player surely you are joking.

right there on your gobbledegook mess of anti-clinton lies taken from an obscure source named the Observer is the disclosure that the publisher of the Observer, one Jared Kushner, is none other than the son-in-law of Donald Trump.

how could anything be more damning? the article you have quoted just upthread is worse than propaganda. It's libel. It's trash. It's repugnant.


*"Disclosure: Donald Trump is the father-in-law of Jared Kushner, the publisher of Observer Media."*

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> this appears to be recycled mcCain-palin from the 2008 election. The US will block remittances by mexican workers stateside back to their families in mexico. This pressure will be sufficient to force the mexican president to do anything the US desires.
> 
> this version recites that trump won't have to actually block the remittance payments, not quite yet. He'll just invoke the patriot's act, then phone mexican president enrique pena nieta with a threat to block. Evidently - goes the 2016 version - mr. pena nieta is expected to promptly hurl himself onto his knees to start begging.
> 
> 
> 
> .


I guess I missed the memo about Mexico becoming a dominant superpower.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> this appears to be recycled mcCain-palin from the 2008 election. The US will block remittances by mexican workers stateside back to their families in mexico. This pressure will be sufficient to force the mexican president to do anything the US desires.
> 
> this version recites that trump won't have to actually block the remittance payments, not quite yet. He'll just invoke the patriot's act, then phone mexican president enrique pena nieta with a threat to block. Evidently - goes the 2016 version - mr. pena nieta is expected to promptly hurl himself onto his knees to start begging.
> 
> .


Or, he'll simply allow the immigration people to follow rules as they currently exist and those who are here illegally will have return to their home country. It's really not that complicated.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> bass player surely you are joking.
> 
> right there on your gobbledegook mess of anti-clinton lies taken from an obscure source named the Observer is the disclosure that the publisher of the Observer, one Jared Kushner, is none other than the son-in-law of Donald Trump.
> 
> how could anything be more damning? the article you have quoted just upthread is worse than propaganda. It's libel. It's trash. It's repugnant.
> 
> 
> *"Disclosure: Donald Trump is the father-in-law of Jared Kushner, the publisher of Observer Media."*
> 
> .


Based on your logic, every single thing CNN says is a lie because they donate to the Hillary campaign. And to take it further, the vast majority of the US media leans left, so everything they say about Trump is a lie.

Or, does only the right lie in your fantasy world?


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Based on your logic, every single thing CNN says is a lie because they donate to the Hillary campaign. And to take it further, the vast majority of the US media leans left, so everything they say about Trump is a lie.
> 
> Or, does only the right lie in your fantasy world?


The thing is-Humble doesn't actually believe any of this nonsense she is typing-how could she? She watched a video of a stiff limbed Hillary Clinton thrown into a van, emerging a few hours later feeling fantastic-and Humble pretends to think this is a normal everyday occurrence. If she can't even be honest on that one when the video evidence is right there that says everything on this topic.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Or, he'll simply allow the immigration people to follow rules as they currently exist and those who are *here* illegally will have return to their home country. It's really not that complicated.




*here* bass player?
where, may i ask, is *here?*

are you in the US of A, as many in cmf forum believe?

if so, what are you doing up here on a canadian chat forum? surely you realize that canadians don't vote in US elections?

such a waste of time for yourself & nelley .:frog:


.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> The thing is-Humble doesn't actually believe any of this nonsense she is typing-how could she? She watched a video of a stiff limbed Hillary Clinton thrown into a van, emerging a few hours later feeling fantastic-and Humble pretends to think this is a normal everyday occurrence. If she can't even be honest on that one when the video evidence is right there that says everything on this topic.



now, now, nelley, please do stick to the topic at hand. No need to jump around like a bipolar. We are Talking about who will Pay for the mexican Wall.


.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> *here* bass player?
> where, may i ask, is *here?*
> 
> are you in the US of A, as many in cmf forum believe?
> 
> if so, what are you doing up here on a canadian chat forum? surely you realize that canadians don't vote in US elections?
> 
> such a waste of time for yourself & nelley .:frog:
> 
> 
> .


The TTC is taking out some bus stops in Scarborough-you could start a thread on that.


----------



## sags

It would be an early test for Trump when Mexico refuses to pay for the wall.

Mexico would have many options to choose from to respond.

A volatile Trump would send stock markets plummeting, which is why most business leaders favor Clinton winning.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Based on your logic, every single thing CNN says is a lie because they donate to the Hillary campaign. And to take it further, the vast majority of the US media leans left, so everything they say about Trump is a lie.
> 
> Or, does only the right lie in your fantasy world?



i'm saying that Jared Kushner, the son-in-law of donald trump, has published what look like a pack of repugnant fabrications in an attempt to slander hillary clinton & favour his father-in-law.

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i'm saying that Jared Kushner, the son-in-law of donald trump, has published what look like a pack of repugnant fabrications in an attempt to slander hillary clinton & favour his father-in-law.
> 
> .


The Clinton Foundation states that less than 6% of donations to the charity actually are used for charitable purposes-they keep 94%-pretty frigging repugnant.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> now, now, nelley, please do stick to the topic at hand. No need to jump around like a bipolar. We are Talking about who will Pay for the mexican Wall.
> 
> 
> .


You don't have any credibility on this Crooked Hillary topic-you are way too smart to believe this nonsense of yours-you are trolling.


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> The Clinton Foundation states that less than 6% of donations to the charity actually are used for charitable purposes-they keep 94%-pretty frigging repugnant.


I think that because it is a "foundation" they want to continue into perpetuity, they need to keep a fund to generate investment returns which can then be spent into perpetuity...........hence the 6% in spending and 94% retention figures.

A similar structure as the Gates Foundation and others.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> *here* bass player?
> where, may i ask, is *here?*
> 
> are you in the US of A, as many in cmf forum believe?
> 
> if so, what are you doing up here on a canadian chat forum? surely you realize that canadians don't vote in US elections?
> 
> such a waste of time for yourself & nelley .:frog:
> 
> 
> .


They may waste their time posting on a US forum too. Their arguments aren't compelling enough to change any votes. Still, the level of emotion exhibited by those two might be more suited to an American forum.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> It would be an early test for Trump when Mexico refuses to pay for the wall.
> 
> Mexico would have many options to choose from to respond.
> 
> A volatile Trump would send stock markets plummeting, which is why most business leaders favor Clinton winning.


The peso is falling hard based on fears of a Trump win-Mexico has more to worry about than just a wall.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> I think that because it is a "foundation" they want to continue into perpetuity, they need to keep a fund to generate investment returns which can then be spent into perpetuity...........hence the 6% in spending and 94% retention figures.
> 
> A similar structure as the Gates Foundation and others.


JEEZ-we need to set up a Canadian Money Forum foundation-then we will all be drinking boat drinks.


----------



## humble_pie

we. are. talking. about. Jared. Kushner. son-in-law. of. donald. trump. publishing. repulsive. lies. &. fabrications. in. his. halfwit. Observer.

nothing. to. do. with. the. clinton. foundation.

.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> They may waste their time posting on a US forum too. Their arguments aren't compelling enough to change any votes. Still, the level of emotion exhibited by those two might be more suited to an American forum.




i hear the bass-nellies of the US have got this theory going that hillary herself has passed away & now they're propping up a body double so that the illuminati can get into the White House & control the planet via their banks .each:


.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i hear the bass-nellies of the US have got this theory going that hillary herself has passed away & now they're propping up a body double so that the illuminati can get into the White House & control the planet via their banks .each:
> 
> 
> .


When I saw Hillary convulsing as they tried to get her into that van I thought George Soros was gonna explode out of her belly like in ALIEN.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> *here* bass player?
> where, may i ask, is *here?*
> 
> are you in the US of A, as many in cmf forum believe?
> 
> if so, what are you doing up here on a canadian chat forum? surely you realize that canadians don't vote in US elections?
> 
> such a waste of time for yourself & nelley .:frog:
> 
> 
> .


"there", not "here"...I missed a letter. I am a Canadian.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> When I saw Hillary convulsing as they tried to get her into that van I thought George Soros was gonna explode out of her belly like in ALIEN.



:biggrin: it's when you talk like this that we know for sure poor nelley is bonkers


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> i'm saying that Jared Kushner, the son-in-law of donald trump, has published what look like a pack of repugnant fabrications in an attempt to slander hillary clinton & favour his father-in-law.
> 
> .


We already know that Hillary lies, but no one has proven that Jared Kushner has lied. Do you have any proof other than your simplistic "everyone on the right lies" mindset that has rendered you incapable of reason?


----------



## TomB19

I just heard, Hillary didn't recover from the pneumonia. The person we are seeing is a body double.

Americans could easily end up electing a body double! Can you imagine?


I love these conspiracies. It's like reading the Enquirer.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I just heard, Hillary didn't recover from the pneumonia. The person we are seeing is a body double.
> 
> Americans could easily end up electing a body double! Can you imagine?
> 
> 
> I love these conspiracies. It's like reading the Enquirer.


The body double is a conspiracy...but, the Democrats are crooked enough to do it if they thought that they could get away with it.

Her health issues are not a conspiracy...we've only heard about how many times she's fainted and/or fallen when they happened publicly. How many other times has that happened where it was kept secret?

And, as last week has shown, they had no intention of telling anyone of her latest "fainting" incident until amateur footage forced their hand. Even her own press people were dodged and kept in the dark. Then, when they finally came clean, they couldn't even keep their story straight.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I just heard, Hillary didn't recover from the pneumonia. The person we are seeing is a body double.
> 
> Americans could easily end up electing a body double! Can you imagine?
> 
> 
> I love these conspiracies. It's like reading the Enquirer.


I just heard pneumonia causes you to exhibit the symptoms of Parkinsons disease-it would have been simpler to tell the sheep she wasn't even present at the 9/11 event-they would swallow it.


----------



## mrPPincer

How is this even a story?

What happened to discussing the issues, & the opposing policies?

Oh yeah, one side has zero policies on the table besides closing the borders and nuking whichever nation gets out of line first (ie, offends the temper-tantrum rich boy).

Talking about health lol.. inheritance boy is obese and on heart meds, so yeah, talk about the pot calling the kettle black


----------



## new dog

We haven't seen any issues discussed really this whole summer. Maybe the debate will be about issues instead the health of the candidates or some crazy thing Trump says. Hopefully the media as well will get down to the issues when questioning the candidates.

Of course the candidates themselves will have to get over the crazy talk, possible health issues and corruption problems. The TPP would be a good start. For example I heard an expert say that if a Canadian company in Canada takes losses because of environmental regulations and a foreign company buys the Canadian company they can then sue Canada for those losses.


----------



## mrPPincer

I'm with you on discussing TPP; it seems more capitulation than a deal.

But any time somebody utters the phrase 'trade deal', the talking heads seem to jump into some kind of chorus line agreement celebration, purely based on some kind of academic principle they got drilled into their brains by in all likelyhood one the same professors that read it in some mouldy book written by another academic that had a really good theory once.

Seems both sides don't like the deal though, (even though it favours big US pharma & big US IT control, & gives another pass for patent troll cos.iirc).


----------



## olivaw

I too would be far more interested in a pro/con discussion of TPP than health conspiracy theories. For that matter, even NAFTA should be on the table for discussion in Canada. (IMHO NAFTA was a fair deal but it changed when it was expanded to include Mexico)

I suspect that the only US discussion about trade deals will be Trump's declaration that he would personally renegotiate every trade deal so that America will be great again.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> How is this even a story?
> 
> What happened to discussing the issues, & the opposing policies?
> 
> Oh yeah, one side has zero policies on the table besides closing the borders and nuking whichever nation gets out of line first (ie, offends the temper-tantrum rich boy).
> 
> Talking about health lol.. inheritance boy is obese and on heart meds, so yeah, talk about the pot calling the kettle black


Yes, but if Crooked Hillary has a total meltdown during the debate, goes full catatonic and has to be carried off the stage by that big black guy who helps her survive the day, it is going to be a challenge for you and the MSM to sell the "yeah but Trump is fat" narrative to even the stupidest of the sheep.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Yes, but if Crooked Hillary has a total meltdown during the debate, goes full catatonic and has to be carried off the stage by that big black guy who helps her survive the day, it is going to be a challenge for you and the MSM to sell the "yeah but Trump is fat" narrative to even the stupidest of the sheep.


He's old, he's obese, and he's on heart meds.
And nobody cares.
It is not an issue up for debate, how about discussing actual issues.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> He's old, he's obese, and he's on heart meds.
> And nobody cares.
> It is not an issue up for debate, how about discussing actual issues.


The thing is-Crooked Hillary has had to rest about 5 days out of 7 for the last six months-it isn't about her obesity or age at all-she doesn't appear to be physically able to handle any sort of tasks at all-she would be the definition of an actual puppet as POTUS.


----------



## mrPPincer

Oh, btw he has a shorter life expectancy than Hillary because women live longer, 

still, not an issue.

Shouldn't you be more concerned about his whacko blurbs that contradict themselves & complete lack of an actual plan, on anything??


----------



## olivaw

Nelley is depressed. Trump threw the birther conspiracy theorists under the bus. Claims he spent the last eight years trying to debunk birtherism :eagerness:


----------



## bass player

The media is sputtering mad that Trump played them for the fools they are by making them cover his major "birther" announcement and he trotted out veterans who praised him for a half hour. Then he simply said: "Obama was born in America. Period. Hillary and her 2008 campaign started it. I ended it." He then left the stage and the media was unable to attack him.

Since then, CNN has in a snit and has been reduced to lying for the last 2 days by claiming that Hillary did not start the birther conspiracy, even though her close advisor Sid Blumenthal was the one who actually did start it.

Well played, Donald. It's nice to see the lying media foiled by someone who won't roll over for them.


----------



## Eder

Since Trump causes such apoplexy amongst everyone I feel it would be enjoyable to watch him as president the next 4 years. I doubt there's any difference in the long run between either candidate...


----------



## olivaw

I doubt the media gets mad when somebody gives them a story to air. 

BTW: former defense secretary Robert Gates said that Donald Trump is "beyond repair" and "clueless". Gates has served in both Republican and Democratic administrations. How come everybody with a reputation to protect distances themselves from Trump?


----------



## bass player

olivaw: CNN was irate...they even timed Trump's comment at 27 seconds and complained that it wasn't enough. They're still complaining and still repeating the lie that the birther didn't begin with a Hillary advisor in 2008.

They wanted to attack Trump and he didn't give them the chance and now they're crying...


----------



## olivaw

Lol, Trump was the de-facto head of the birther movement. I doubt anybody will believe that all birthers were Clinton supporters or that Trump opposed them for the past eight years. I watched some of the CNN coverage. A few are laughing at Trump. Some African American guests are offended that Trump didn't own up to his mistake and apologize. They're not crying, they're scolding.

Speaking of scolding Trump - did you see Michelle Obama's speech?. Man she's good.


----------



## humble_pie

please i'd like to hear more from nelley about how the body double is taking secret orders from aliens through its ear piece


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Lol, Trump was the de-facto head of the birther movement. I doubt anybody will believe that all birthers were Clinton supporters or that Trump opposed them for the past eight years. I watched some of the CNN coverage. A few are laughing at Trump. Some African American guests are offended that Trump didn't own up to his mistake and apologize. They're not crying, they're scolding.
> 
> Speaking of scolding Trump - did you see Michelle Obama's speech?. Man she's good.


Sid Blumenthal, a Hillary top advisor started the birther conspiracy in back 2008. Just because some media and Hillary deny it doesn't change that fact.

I hope you don't take CNN seriously...they are firmly in Hillary's corner and are a joke. I put them on for a few minutes every now and then for entertainment purposes and to see how low they can stoop with their "reporting"...


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> What happened to discussing the issues, & the opposing policies?


The 1950s happened.


----------



## mrPPincer

It's a page out of 'Idiocracy', except it's happening too soon.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> I doubt the media gets mad when somebody gives them a story to air.
> 
> BTW: former defense secretary Robert Gates said that Donald Trump is "beyond repair" and "clueless". Gates has served in both Republican and Democratic administrations. How come everybody with a reputation to protect distances themselves from Trump?


What is it about the sheep that you are constantly looking for an authority figure or figures to do your thinking for you? Wow-Gates was "defence secretary"-so what?


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> What is it about the sheep that you are constantly looking for an authority figure or figures to do your thinking for you? Wow-Gates was "defence secretary"-so what?


It's simple. Conservatives are taught how to think. Liberals are told what to think...


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> It's simple. Conservatives are taught how to think. Liberals are told what to think...


Interesting, because aren't the majority of Conservatives pretty much the uneducated, with the majority of the educated being at least progressive if not liberals?


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Interesting, because aren't the majority of Conservatives pretty much the uneducated, with the majority of the educated being at least progressive if not liberals?


Educated to be a stupid sheep. Teacher teacher I brought you an apple.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Educated to be a stupid sheep. Teacher teacher I brought you an apple.


No.
Critical thinking.
Science.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Interesting, because aren't the majority of Conservatives pretty much the uneducated, with the majority of the educated being at least progressive if not liberals?


Education and intelligence are not the same.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> No.
> Critical thinking.
> Science.


Aren't you the one that calls every scary opinion a "conspiracy theory"? Yeah real critical thinking-Tesla would be proud.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Education and intelligence are not the same.


No, absolutely agreed, they are not.
Irrelevant to the question however.

Unless you are suggesting that being uneducated makes one smarter..


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> I think that because it is a "foundation" they want to continue into perpetuity, they need to keep a fund to generate investment returns which can then be spent into perpetuity...........hence the 6% in spending and 94% retention figures.
> 
> A similar structure as the Gates Foundation and others.


(Sags- shhhh! Don't cloud the issue with facts...)


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> (Sags- shhhh! Don't cloud the issue with facts...)


6% is too high for charitable purposes-it should be 0% and 100% for Clintons and Cronies-don't worry-someday "in perpetuity" the cash will find its way to good.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Aren't you the one that calls every scary opinion a "conspiracy theory"? Yeah real critical thinking-Tesla would be proud.


When you produce back to back theories that constantly get debunked, and still cling to them and refuse to discuss real issues, how can you expect anyone to to take you seriously, answer, ofc you don't.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> When you produce back to back theories that constantly get debunked, and still cling to them and refuse to discuss real issues, how can you expect anyone to to take you seriously, answer, ofc you don't.


You couldn't debunk your way out of a paper bag.


----------



## indexxx

mrPPincer said:


> It's a page out of 'Idiocracy', except it's happening too soon.
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/


I love that film- it's a must see.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> It's simple. Conservatives are taught how to think. Liberals are told what to think...


If that is indeed the case, why is it that a vast majority of conservatives also identify as believing in a supreme being, whose word dictates how to live?


----------



## mrPPincer

sags said:


> I think that because it is a "foundation" they want to continue into perpetuity, they need to keep a fund to generate investment returns which can then be spent into perpetuity...........hence the 6% in spending and 94% retention figures.
> 
> A similar structure as the Gates Foundation and others.


I think the 6% is what they spend directly.

The way they are structured, they are more of a support mechanism to other charitable NGO's, which is where the majority of the money goes, which is not in any way dubious or unusual.

This is just another trump camp red herring.

The Clinton foundation is a tax charitable foundation and thus has open books.
The Trump one is not, and does not have open books; it is just a transfer slush fund for graft.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> No, absolutely agreed, they are not.
> Irrelevant to the question however.
> 
> Unless you are suggesting that being uneducated makes one smarter..


Why is it irrelevant? You are the one that suggested progressive's are more educated. One can only assume you meant that they are also more intelligent or else you would not have said what you said.


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> Interesting, because aren't the majority of Conservatives pretty much the uneducated, with the majority of the educated being at least progressive if not liberals?


I think there is a strong trend but there are some seriously well accredited Republicans. A friend of mine has a doctor daughter who is a physician and she is pretty far gone, on the alien conspiracy, shoot all Democrats, God and guns schtick. She's not the only one, either.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I think there is a strong trend but there are some seriously well accredited Republicans. A friend of mine has a doctor who is a physician and she is pretty far gone, on the alien conspiracy, shoot all Democrats, God and guns schtick. She's not the only one, either.


It's easy to make sweeping generalizations about the many failings of Democrats, too.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> It's easy to make sweeping generalizations about the many failings of Democrats, too.


For sure. I'm sure a few of them play bass guitar.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> For sure. I'm sure a few of them play bass guitar.


A bass is not a guitar.


----------



## TomB19

What if a bass has always been a guitar but it has been pretending not to be, all these years? I heard bass owners like to keep their strings loose, to cause the instrument to play lower than it would play with tighter strings. Nobody has said anything or mentioned it because the media is owned by Libtards and it's not like you can expect the sheeple to pick up on something as subtle as this.

My God, man! What is this world coming to?!!!!! There really IS a conspiracy behind every Bush!


----------



## TomB19

By the way, Wikipedia has a posting on the "bass guitar (also called electric bass, or simply bass)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_guitar

That place must be run by Democrats. Nobody is safe!!!! lol!


----------



## TomB19

I think my favorite of the Republican conspiracy bologna is the idea that, if Hillary wins, that will be the election was fixed. That came directly from Trump's hate hole. 

It was a quality effort, for sure. :eagerness:


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I think my favorite of the Republican conspiracy bologna is the idea that, if Hillary wins, that will be the election was fixed. That came directly from Trump's hate hole.
> 
> It was a quality effort, for sure. :eagerness:


You remind me of myself-you have the identical worldview I had when I was 12 years old. Congratulations.


----------



## olivaw

nelley showed promise when she was 12. What happened?


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Why is it irrelevant? You are the one that suggested progressive's are more educated. One can only assume you meant that they are also more intelligent or else you would not have said what you said.


Remember? you brought it up..



bass player said:


> It's simple. Conservatives are taught how to think. Liberals are told what to think...


^'taught' & 'toid' right there, is education the wrong word?
The rhetorical question was..



mrPPincer said:


> Interesting, because aren't the majority of Conservatives pretty much the uneducated, with the majority of the educated being at least progressive if not liberals?


You did not actually answer the question; *you* then brought up intelligence..



bass player said:


> Education and intelligence are not the same.


Which if that was an answer to the question, led to my response, attempting to eke out whatever implication you were making..



mrPPincer said:


> No, absolutely agreed, they are not.
> Irrelevant to the question however.
> 
> Unless you are suggesting that being uneducated makes one smarter..


I did not say it was irrelevant; I said it was irrelevant to the question, which you did not answer, unless it was through innuendo..

(btw I won't deny I myself am uneducated & of questionable intelligence; but it was just a simple question which was presumably met with obfuscation).


----------



## new dog

TomB19 said:


> I think my favorite of the Republican conspiracy bologna is the idea that, if Hillary wins, that will be the election was fixed. That came directly from Trump's hate hole.
> 
> It was a quality effort, for sure. :eagerness:



When I vote, first I get my voter card mailed to me, then I go to my local poll and vote. First however I must go to someone who checks everything, finds my name, gives me a ballot and crosses my name off the list. This is the way it should be done and it should not be done any other way. I don't know how they do it in the US but in past elections there were problems, as was mentioned above somewhere in the thread.


----------



## mrPPincer

indexxx said:


> I love that film- it's a must see.


Fully agree, it's one of my favorites, one of those ones that is underrated at first, but becomes a cult classic if it hasn't already.

Prophetic is the word I think, you see it happening in front of you in everyday life, and have to laugh


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> When I vote, first I get my voter card mailed to me, then I go to my local poll and vote. First however I must go to someone who checks everything, finds my name, gives me a ballot and crosses my name off the list. This is the way it should be done and it should not be done any other way. I don't know how they do it in the US but in past elections there were problems, as was mentioned above somewhere in the thread.


In the US, the states are responsible for elections. Some Republican controlled states opened fewer polling stations in minority neighbourhoods. Florida was a major offender. Their excuse was that minority voters were less likely to vote than white Americans so fewer polls were needed. The result was that minorities in some Florida communities had to wait in line for hours to vote.

Then there was the Republican House Leader in Pennsylvania who accidentally told a crowd that he would use voter ID laws to deliver Pennsylvania to Romney. Oops


----------



## sags

Trump is polling much higher among the young college educated white male segment than I would have thought.

I don't know the reason for that, but suspect it may have something to do with alpha males feeling restricted by political correctness.

Maybe they feel a strong urge to howl at the moon but are being told they have to keep the noise down.


----------



## indexxx

Back to the Berliner Wall discussion (ich bin ein)- has (T)rump had any group calculate the actual cost of this thing? It's a long freaking border at almost 2,000 miles- seems to me that it would spiral MASSIVELY out of control and would need to be sunk about 40 feet into the ground in remote areas to prevent people tunnelling underneath, and be incredibly strong to prevent breaking through/blowing up in those areas as well (or maybe he can just put a huge effigy of his hair on top to scare people away). He can pull a number like $5 billion or whatever out of his a$$ but every project goes over budget- usually the bigger the project the higher percentage over. And compound it with government bureaucracy- what a financial mess. Does he have an actualized formal proposal from engineers and construction experts?


----------



## TomB19

Don't worry about cost. Mexico is going to pay for it.


----------



## s123

olivaw said:


> In the US, the states are responsible for elections. Some Republican controlled states opened fewer polling stations in minority neighbourhoods. Florida was a major offender. Their excuse was that minority voters were less likely to vote than white Americans so fewer polls were needed. The result was that minorities in some Florida communities had to wait in line for hours to vote.
> 
> Then there was the Republican House Leader in Pennsylvania who accidentally told a crowd that he would use voter ID laws to deliver Pennsylvania to Romney. Oops


The voting machines are unsecured. 
There is much evidence to support this.
You guys can debate about Hillary or Trump all you want but the fact is the US vote count is not accurate which means the candidate is chosen by the machine or potential of some kind of fraudulence. 
The problems are a critical.
*
More people are realizing this.... illusion of democracy in America.
Americans (including gov+media) are standing on the edge so anything could happen.


- Election Fraud Report Recommends Decertifying Primary Results for Hillary, Hand Counts of Ballots
http://hubpages.com/politics/Election-Fraud-Report-Seeks-to-Decertify-Primary-Results-for-Hillary


EJUSA identified voting patterns it said were "strongly suggestive of electronic voting machine tampering."

The report noted that "in other technologically advanced countries such as Germany, Canada, France, Ireland, Italy, Denmark, Finland, and 53 other countries," election ballots are 
counted by hand and in public. 

Germany banned the use of machines to count ballots in 2009.

The entire Democratic primary season was marked by multiple lawsuits, federal and state level investigations of election fiascos and irregularities, and open instances of fraud benefiting Hillary Clinton, all of it unreported by the national media.

In Chicago, a citizens election watchdog group testified at a Chicago Board of Elections hearing that they witnessed local election officials manipulating the results of machine-counted ballots. 
A lawsuit has been filed by election integrity activists.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> Back to the Berliner Wall discussion (ich bin ein)- has (T)rump had any group calculate the actual cost of this thing? It's a long freaking border at almost 2,000 miles- seems to me that it would spiral MASSIVELY out of control and would need to be sunk about 40 feet into the ground in remote areas to prevent people tunnelling underneath, and be incredibly strong to prevent breaking through/blowing up in those areas as well (or maybe he can just put a huge effigy of his hair on top to scare people away). He can pull a number like $5 billion or whatever out of his a$$ but every project goes over budget- usually the bigger the project the higher percentage over. And compound it with government bureaucracy- what a financial mess. Does he have an actualized formal proposal from engineers and construction experts?


Better not do it-too expensive-too bad you weren't there to advise the USA when the bailout happened-then it was "no price is too high for the taxpayers to pay"-from memory sainted Buffett was the single largest bailout winner at about 19 billion (from memory) through BRK holdings bailed out. Maybe Saint Buffett can pay for the wall? Or maybe Goldman?


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Trump is polling much higher among the young college educated white male segment than I would have thought.
> 
> I don't know the reason for that, but suspect it may have something to do with alpha males feeling restricted by political correctness.
> 
> Maybe they feel a strong urge to howl at the moon but are being told they have to keep the noise down.


The backlash against political correctness is just starting and it won't stop-Trump is a symptom, not a cause.


----------



## Nelley

s123 said:


> The machine vote is unsecured.
> There are many evidences.
> You guys can discuss about Hillary or Trump all you want but US voter's count is not accurate which means the candidate is chosen by the machine or some kind of fraudulence.
> The problems are a critical.
> 
> More people are realized this.....The illusion of democracy in America.
> Americans (includes gov+media) are standing on the edge so anything can happen.
> 
> 
> - Election Fraud Report Recommends Decertifying Primary Results for Hillary, Hand Counts of Ballots
> http://hubpages.com/politics/Election-Fraud-Report-Seeks-to-Decertify-Primary-Results-for-Hillary
> 
> 
> EJUSA identified voting patterns it said were "strongly suggestive of electronic voting machine tampering."
> 
> The report noted that "in other technologically advanced countries such as Germany, Canada, France, Ireland, Italy, Denmark, Finland, and 53 other countries," election ballots are
> counted by hand and in public.
> 
> Germany banned the use of machines to count ballots in 2009.
> 
> The entire Democratic primary season was marked by multiple lawsuits, federal and state level investigations of election fiascos and irregularities, and open instances of fraud benefiting Hillary Clinton, all of it unreported by the national media.
> 
> In Chicago, a citizens election watchdog group testified at a Chicago Board of Elections hearing that they witnessed local election officials manipulating the results of machine-counted ballots.
> A lawsuit has been filed by election integrity activists.


If Trump loses the election due to apparent widespread election fraud the benefit is that a certain % of the sleeping sheep will open their eyes.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Trump is polling much higher among the young college educated white male segment than I would have thought.
> 
> I don't know the reason for that, but suspect it may have something to do with alpha males feeling restricted by political correctness.
> 
> Maybe they feel a strong urge to howl at the moon but are being told they have to keep the noise down.


The overreaction to things and ongoing obsession with political correctness has been taken to an extreme level over the years, so the response should not surprise anyone. Plenty of blame to go around and not just for what's going on in the US, just look at the world.

Was the Calgary student right to tell another student to take his Trump hat off? Just look at the extreme reaction, death threats.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/mount-royal-donald-trump-hat-make-america-great-1.3764642


----------



## bass player

This shows how dishonest and the media is, and how low they have sunk. At 29 seconds, Hillary says "I've been briefed about the bombings..."

At 1:08 a reporter asks Hillary: "Do you have any reaction to the fact that Donald Trump, prior to taking the stage tonight, called the explosion tonight a bomb, and if that’s an appropriate term?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8TR61QFpoA


----------



## sags

"Four more years" was chanted by the students to Michelle Obama, who politely declined..........and there appears to be strong support for Libertarian and Green candidates among the young, so it may be combination of reasons why Hillary Clinton isn't doing well with that segment of voters.

It isn't a new problem for Democrats. Al Gore lost by 500 votes in Florida when Ralph Nader received 97,000. Gore would have won Florida and the Presidency. Young voters want more radical solutions than the Democratic establishment is offering them.

Bernie Sanders and Michelle Obama are hitting the colleges to raise support for Clinton. 

Barrack Obama gave a fiery speech to black voters yesterday. Elizabeth Warren is talking about the economy.

The Democrats are pulling out all the big names for the final push to election day.

Contrast that with the obvious lack of support from well known Republicans for Trump.

Where are they ? Mitt Romney, John McCain, Ted Cruz, John Kasich, Marco Rubio.......even Chris Christie and New Gingrich have disappeared.

This election is close enough that it could be won or lost on the "ground game"......getting voters out to vote, transportation for voters, phone calls,..........and the Clinton campaign is much better organized for that task than Trump's campaign

Turning out the vote............is why all the Democats are on the stump all over the US.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...stumbles-with-younger-voters/article31935745/


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> This shows how dishonest and the media is, and how low they have sunk. At 29 seconds, Hillary says "I've been briefed about the bombings..."
> 
> At 1:08 a reporter asks Hillary: "Do you have any reaction to the fact that Donald Trump, prior to taking the stage tonight, called the explosion tonight a bomb, and if that’s an appropriate term?"
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8TR61QFpoA


From what I understand, Trump immediately called it a bombing, and Clinton waited for confirmation by officials.

It is a bit of nit picking. It was pretty obvious from the first news that it was a bomb and was "terrorist" related (domestic or otherwise).........in the true definition of the word.

I am not sure why Mayor Deblasio was making the statements he was. It sounded rather peculiar, given the evidence of the bombing.

His reluctance to call it a bombing or some kind of terrorism, had security analysts scratching their heads.

At one point Deblasio said they believed it was a "deliberate act". Well.....yea. You don't just have a bomb fall out of your pocket.


----------



## Nelley

SMK said:


> The overreaction to things and ongoing obsession with political correctness has been taken to an extreme level over the years, so the response should not surprise anyone. Plenty of blame to go around and not just for what's going on in the US, just look at the world.
> 
> Was the Calgary student right to tell another student to take his Trump hat off? Just look at the extreme reaction, death threats.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/mount-royal-donald-trump-hat-make-america-great-1.3764642


You gotta love the CBC B/S-what the hat represents? What the heck does the niqab represent?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> From what I understand, Trump immediately called it a bombing, and Clinton waited for confirmation by officials.


it's mind boggling how brainwashed some people can be.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> "Four more years" was chanted by the students to Michelle Obama, who politely declined..........and there appears to be strong support for Libertarian and Green candidates among the young, so it may be combination of reasons why Hillary Clinton isn't doing well with that segment of voters.
> 
> It isn't a new concept. Al Gore lost by 500 votes in Florida when Ralph Nader received 97,000. Gore would have won Florida and the Presidency.
> 
> Bernie Sanders and Michelle Obama are hitting the colleges to raise support for Clinton.
> 
> Barrack Obama gave a fiery speech to black voters yesterday. Elizabeth Warren is talking about the economy.
> 
> The Democrats are pulling out all the big names for the final push to election day.
> 
> Contrast that with the obvious lack of support from well known Republicans for Trump.
> 
> Where are they ? Mitt Romney, John McCain, Ted Cruz, John Kasich, Marco Rubio.......even Chris Christie and New Gingrich have disappeared.
> 
> This election is close enough that it could be won or lost on the "ground game"......getting voters out to vote, transportation for voters, phone calls,..........and the Clinton campaign is much better organized for that task than Trump's campaign
> 
> Turning out the vote............is why all the Democats are on the stump all over the US.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...stumbles-with-younger-voters/article31935745/


Crooked Hillary's main accomplishment this campaign was to make it obvious to all that the two main parties establishments have merged into the Repubcrats-and they love Crooked Hillary or any other puppet who will keep this going as is.


----------



## olivaw

Trump fans hope that the birther issue is behind them but I suspect that it marks a turning point in this election. Media outlets were willing to give Trump a pass on outlandish statements because he is amusing and they need to maintain the illusion of balance. Now Trump has denied five years of his own birtherism. It is such a bald faced lie that no responsible journalist can let it pass. It may create a media backlash against Trump - not because media is biased, but because journalist will refuse to be used by a man with the moral sophistication of a five-year-old.


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> The backlash against political correctness is just starting and it won't stop-Trump is a symptom, not a cause.


I agree- PC is WAY out of hand and sometimes it really gets to me. Of course most people never intend to offend others, but as an example, when I worked at the university, we were not allowed to refer to women as 'ladies' and were also not allow to use the phrase "merry christmas'. That level of careful eggshell walking actually offends me.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

What is a lie? That Obama was born in the US? I don't get it. When he disagrees with you he is a terrible person. Then he agrees with you and you still aren't happy.


----------



## TomB19

I think it's really positive that Trump is making it a close race. Establishment politicians should be put on notice the public will cling to any alternative, no matter how insane, to bring down the corrupt power centers in Washington. Not in their own districts, of course. Members of congress are re-elected with the reliability of drug dealers defending their turf.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Trump fans hope that the birther issue is behind them but I suspect that it marks a turning point in this election. Media outlets were willing to give Trump a pass on outlandish statements because he is amusing and they need to maintain the illusion of balance. Now Trump has denied five years of his own birtherism. It is such a bald faced lie that no responsible journalist can let it pass. It may create a media backlash against Trump - not because media is biased, but because journalist will refuse to be used by a man with the moral sophistication of a five-year-old.


Responsible journalists? Give me a break. If anything, this election should have made it perfectly clear how dishonest the media really is.

You've been given examples time and time again of how dishonest the media is, but you simply refuse to believe any of them because you have the same core belief that they do.


----------



## new dog

Here is some more feed cutting by the media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuWJQkfOsxk

Also notice how the media jumped all over Trump for calling the NYC bombing as a bombing which it was. The story should have been more about the attack then what Trump correctly said.

I for one wish the media would stay out of it and let the story run for what it is.


----------



## bass player

^^

The media also edited out Bill Clinton's comment that Hillary had fainted on "several" occasions. As I stated earlier, Trump played them by saying he had a big announcement regarding the birther comments and then he trotted out veterans praising him for a half hour. They were spitting mad that they didn't get a chance to attack him like they hoped, but they had it coming because of their dishonesty.


----------



## sags

indexxx said:


> I agree- PC is WAY out of hand and sometimes it really gets to me. Of course most people never intend to offend others, but as an example, when I worked at the university, we were not allowed to refer to women as 'ladies' and were also not allow to use the phrase "merry christmas'. That level of careful eggshell walking actually offends me.


The pendulum always swings too far in any direction.


----------



## Eder

Media have been much more irresponsible than ever...I think even us morons are wise to the propaganda


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> I agree- PC is WAY out of hand and sometimes it really gets to me. Of course most people never intend to offend others, but as an example, when I worked at the university, we were not allowed to refer to women as 'ladies' and were also not allow to use the phrase "merry christmas'. That level of careful eggshell walking actually offends me.


People are fed up with PC-no country is more politically correct than Germany, and just today Merkel's party suffered a historic defeat.


----------



## new dog

Eder said:


> Media have been much more irresponsible than ever...I think even us morons are wise to the propaganda


I don't know, it seems many people still can't see it but the more blatant they get the more they will begin to see it. I believe they would do Hillary a better service not editing and stopping live feed and then probably most people wouldn't even notice or care to much about the few negative comments that gets aired.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> I don't know, it seems many people still can't see it but the more blatant they get the more they will begin to see it. I believe they would do Hillary a better service not editing and stopping live feed and then probably most people wouldn't even notice or care to much about the few negative comments that gets aired.


what nonsense this is. it's one thing to have an opinion. Quite something else to arrogantly claim that others don't see as clearly as you.


----------



## new dog

I don't get this comment because i wasn't talking about myself. I was simply talking about stuff that was edited or stopped by the media in question. I still believe Hillary is better served not blatantly editing or stopping everything to protect her. Maybe I am wrong but the evidence so far doesn't look good.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> What is a lie? That Obama was born in the US? I don't get it. When he disagrees with you he is a terrible person. Then he agrees with you and you still aren't happy.


Trump denied his own birtherism. It may have been a lie too far. 

Agreement or disagreement with his policies is irrelevant. He is emotionally unfit to be president.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> I don't get this comment because i wasn't talking about myself. I was simply talking about stuff that was edited or stopped by the media in question. I still believe Hillary is better served not blatantly editing or stopping everything to protect her. Maybe I am wrong but the evidence so far doesn't look good.


Dogcom - you said "it seems many people still can't see it". My comment wasn't directed just towards only you. It was directed at anybody who thinks they have an insight into the media that others lack. They are simply repeating Sarah Panin talking points.


----------



## new dog

Ok I am lost on this because I don't pay attention to Sarah Palin. I am simply showing stuff the media cuts out and stuff like that. I believe many still can't see the media bias and the blatant censorship would maybe make them notice. Again I could be wrong about this but when you do stuff like this, people start to wake up I would think.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> Trump denied his own birtherism. It may have been a lie too far.
> 
> Agreement or disagreement with his policies is irrelevant. He is emotionally unfit to be president.


The Donald held a press conference at which he promised to make a major announcement. A number of military men endorsed him, and at the end he announced that Obama was born in the US. The media was furious at how he had played them. He never gave a damn where Obama was born, it was part of the shtick he used to advance his run at the Presidency, now that it has served its purpose it is time to discard it and look less loony and more Presidential.

There are only two possibilities. One is, Donald Trump is a world class bullshit artist who has come from nowhere to within sight of the Presidency thanks to his ability to influence people.

The other possibility is that he is a space cadet who shoots off his mouth about anything that enters his head, without considering the consequences. And by a giant fluke of billions to one chances, saw off 13 top Republican politicians one by one and is now neck and neck with Clinton in the home stretch - purely by accident. I can't even calculate the odds of this happening by chance but it makes winning the lottery look like a cinch.

The only logical conclusion is that he is crazy like a fox and has bamboozled everybody except Scott Adams.


----------



## olivaw

I'll go with A Rusty. He is a world class BS artist who took advantage of gullible birther conspiracy theorists to advance his personal ambition. When birtherism was no longer useful, he threw it away. Birtherism did not contribute to a healthy political discussion in the United States. it served only to delegitimze the president and to scared the cr-p out of Americans who came to believe that a Kenyan Muslim was going to implement Sharia Law.

Trump did not play the media for fools. He played his own supporters for fools.

Looked at in that light, the media are not angry that Trump didn't spend enough time explaining his past birtherism. They are angry for not exposing the con. Some, including the NY Times, Defending themselves against allegations of going too easy on Trump. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

The other narrative promoted by some in this thread is "liberal media bias". That's an old GOP talking point.


----------



## bass player

^^ Actually, the New York Times stated that they hated Trump and that they would not be reporting fairly on him. But, why let that fact get in the way?

The only people left who think the media in unbiased are clueless progressives that are programmed to say "right wing conspiracy" every time they hear something that triggers the urge to hide in a safe space.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> ^^ Actually, the New York Times stated that they hated Trump and that they would not be reporting fairly on him. But, why let that fact get in the way?



wondering where the NY Times published such a statement. I have never seen or even heard of it. Could you please produce the NYT source. Would appreciate.

but then, perhaps this is another bass player fiction, just like the incessant bass fibbing over doKtor epiPen, which ended with a sullen bass admission that the individual in the videos was a clinton security guard legitimately working his job ...

.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The Donald held a press conference at which he promised to make a major announcement. A number of military men endorsed him, and at the end he announced that Obama was born in the US. The media was furious at how he had played them. He never gave a damn where Obama was born, it was part of the shtick he used to advance his run at the Presidency, now that it has served its purpose it is time to discard it and look less loony and more Presidential.
> 
> There are only two possibilities. One is, Donald Trump is a world class bullshit artist who has come from nowhere to within sight of the Presidency thanks to his ability to influence people.
> 
> The other possibility is that he is a space cadet who shoots off his mouth about anything that enters his head, without considering the consequences. And by a giant fluke of billions to one chances, saw off 13 top Republican politicians one by one and is now neck and neck with Clinton in the home stretch - purely by accident. I can't even calculate the odds of this happening by chance but it makes winning the lottery look like a cinch.
> 
> The only logical conclusion is that he is crazy like a fox and has bamboozled everybody except Scott Adams.


The American public has been pushed too far-they have been smacked around and bullied and reached their limit-Trump and Sanders come along and promise change (just like Obozo did)-the public is desperate for major change because the way things are right now is only working for at most 20% of the population-Crooked Hillary says everything is great-I will continue Obozo's great legacy. Everybody wants to obsess how Donald Trump isn't PERFECT-the public is saying who gives a flying f--k if this guy is perfect or not.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> I'll go with A Rusty. He is a world class BS artist who took advantage of gullible birther conspiracy theorists to advance his personal ambition. When birtherism was no longer useful, he threw it away. Birtherism did not contribute to a healthy political discussion in the United States. it served only to delegitimze the president and to scared the cr-p out of Americans who came to believe that a Kenyan Muslim was going to implement Sharia Law.
> 
> Trump did not play the media for fools. He played his own supporters for fools.
> 
> Looked at in that light, the media are not angry that Trump didn't spend enough time explaining his past birtherism. They are angry for not exposing the con. Some, including the NY Times, Defending themselves against allegations of going too easy on Trump. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
> 
> The other narrative promoted by some in this thread is "liberal media bias". That's an old GOP talking point.


Because of Crooked Hillary's obvious decline, the MSM was desperate to focus on the birther thing-Trump basically said I don't care where this fool was born-lets move on. That drove them crazy.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> wondering where the NY Times published such a statement. I have never seen or even heard of it. Could you please produce the NYT source. Would appreciate.
> 
> but then, perhaps this is another bass player fiction, just like the incessant bass fibbing over doKtor epiPen, which ended with a sullen bass admission that the individual in the videos was a clinton security guard legitimately working his job ...
> 
> .


Nobody here works for you-everybody remembers a guy saying it at the NYT in a column-waste your own time Humble-not ours.


----------



## sags

Trump was on Fox News this morning complaining about the New York spate of bombings. He blames Obama and Clinton.

When asked what a President Trump would do about it, he says it is a secret and he doesn't want to give it away to the enemy.

Specifically..............what could Donald Trump (or anyone else) do to prevent future bombings ? 

What could Obama or Clinton do that isn't already being done ?

If there were clear solutions they would have already been put to use.

How stupid are people when they believe Donald Trump knows more than anyone in the FBI, Homeland Security or any police force ?

Pretty stupid, I would say but Trump himself seems to actually believe it.


----------



## sags

When a person is sick they go to see the medical specialist. They don't go to consult with their local realtor about the illness.

Why would people believe that Donald Trump knows more about US security than the experts at the various US agencies and police forces ?

Because I suppose, he has convinced them that he is a real estate developer with all the answers on US security issues.


----------



## sags

In the upcoming debates, Donald Trump is going to have to get off the fence.

Hillary Clinton is going to challenge him with specific questions on how he would deal with things exactly.

If he equivocates and has no solutions, Americans will see that he has no solutions and his support will drop off dramatically.

"I will tell you after I am elected" answers will give Clinton all the opportunity she needs to expose his lack of preparedness.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Trump was on Fox News this morning complaining about the New York spate of bombings. He blames Obama and Clinton.
> 
> When asked what a President Trump would do about it, he says it is a secret and he doesn't want to give it away to the enemy.
> 
> Specifically..............what could Donald Trump (or anyone else) do to prevent future bombings ?
> 
> What could Obama or Clinton do that isn't already being done ?
> 
> If there were clear solutions they would have already been put to use.
> 
> How stupid are people when they believe Donald Trump knows more than anyone in the FBI, Homeland Security or any police force ?
> 
> Pretty stupid, I would say.


The bigger stupidity might be thinking that the "stupid people" trust Trump. His support and that of Sanders had nothing to do with trust but discontent.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> When a person is sick they go to see the medical specialist. They don't go to consult with their local realtor about the illness.
> 
> Why would people believe that Donald Trump knows more about US security than the experts at the various US agencies and police forces ?
> 
> Because I suppose, he has convinced them that he is a real estate developer with all the answers on US security issues.


Why do you keep repeating yourself?  Lying Trump has not convinced anyone of anything. Protest votes have nothing to do with trust. Do you really believe that millions of Americans are so stupid to trust someone like Trump?


----------



## TomB19

SMK said:


> The bigger stupidity might be thinking that the "stupid people" trust Trump. His support and that of Sanders had nothing to do with trust but discontent.


Yeah. I suspect the mindset is more the feeling of having nothing to lose. Trump is disruptive. For the legions of folks who have complete disdain for the power centers in politics, any disruptive force could potentially be positive.


----------



## TomB19

SMK said:


> Do you really believe that millions of Americans are so stupid to trust someone like Trump?


I do. Trump is polling well above Hillary in trustworthiness.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Hillary Clinton is going to challenge him with specific questions on how he would deal with things exactly.


I hope so.

The debates I've seen, however, involve random, rose-colored prose about how great their plan is and then a character attack on their opponent.


----------



## sags

What a scary thought.........that people who don't trust Trump would give him absolute power over the US nuclear arsenal, because they are discontented with the system.


----------



## sags

TomB19 said:


> I hope so.
> 
> The debates I've seen, however, involve random, rose-colored prose about how great their plan is and then a character attack on their opponent.


I agree, but long distance questions are much easier to deflect than in the small confines of a debate stage.

The primary debates were sailing through calm waters, as candidates didn't want to inflict too much damage to their own party.

These debates are one on one........candidate versus candidate.......and there is no reason to hold back.

Clinton has the experience. Trump has the chutzpa.

Clinton is spending a lot of time preparing......Trump doesn't believe preparation makes him better.

It will be interesting to watch and I believe decisive to the election result.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> What a scary thought.........that people who don't trust Trump would give him absolute power over the US nuclear arsenal, because they are discontented with the system.


It's establishment backlash on a global scale.

Perhaps the "stupid people" know the difference between rhetoric and reality. Funny how many have taken Trump's words literally.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Clinton is spending a lot of time preparing......Trump doesn't believe preparation makes him better.


Off the cuff answers, based on gut reaction, are always more interesting to watch than well researched and thought out responses.


----------



## SMK

TomB19 said:


> I do. Trump is polling well above Hillary in trustworthiness.


Trustworthiness has been an issue with Clinton from way back even before Trump was in the picture. Voters elected unknown Obama once upon a time, but was it trust that got him elected in 2008?

Do you trust that Trump will build the wall, shoot Iranian ships out of the water? I don't.


----------



## Nelley

SMK said:


> Trustworthiness has been an issue with Clinton from way back even before Trump was in the picture. Voters elected unknown Obama once upon a time, but was it trust that got him elected in 2008?
> 
> Do you trust that Trump will build the wall, shoot Iranian ships out of the water? I don't.


It isn't just Clinton-polls show that the public's trust of the MSM is at a record low-the same for politicians in general-and Wall Street-and the Fed. A record % of Americans think the whole thing is a scam-look at this Afghani bombing in NYC-the MSM won't even call it what it is.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Nobody here works for you-everybody remembers a guy saying it at the NYT in a column-waste your own time Humble-not ours.



here is the post i am questioning, because i believe it's another falsehood in a long string of lies:



bass player said:


> Actually, the New York Times stated that they hated Trump and that they would not be reporting fairly on him.



the allegation is that the New York Times itself published a statement that they *hated Trump and that they would not be reporting fairly on him.*

an op-ed columnist or a 3rd party internet commentator appearing in the Times' pages is emphatically *not* the venerable New York Times itself speaking. No one can speak for NYT editorial policy other than the NY Times' editors themselves. They have never stated any such thing as the above piece of slander.

someone like nelleykins would never be able to understand the difference, though.


.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> here is the post i am questioning, because i believe it's another falsehood in a long string of lies:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the allegation is that the New York Times itself published a statement that they *hated Trump and that they would not be reporting fairly on him.*
> 
> an op-ed columnist or a 3rd party internet commentator appearing in the Times' pages is emphatically *not* the venerable New York Times itself speaking. No one can speak for NYT editorial policy other than the NY Times' editors themselves. They have never stated any such thing as the above piece of slander.
> 
> someone like nelleykins would never be able to understand the difference, though.
> 
> 
> .


Look-you are literally the only person on planet earth that is unaware that the NYT is opposed to Donald Trump as POTUS-why is this even so important to you? I was just commenting on your habit of commanding other posters to do your legwork for you-use google once in a while before you comment.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> I'll go with A Rusty. He is a world class BS artist who took advantage of gullible birther conspiracy theorists to advance his personal ambition. When birtherism was no longer useful, he threw it away. Birtherism did not contribute to a healthy political discussion in the United States. it served only to delegitimze the president and to scared the cr-p out of Americans who came to believe that a Kenyan Muslim was going to implement Sharia Law.
> 
> Trump did not play the media for fools. He played his own supporters for fools.
> 
> Looked at in that light, the media are not angry that Trump didn't spend enough time explaining his past birtherism. They are angry for not exposing the con. Some, including the NY Times, Defending themselves against allegations of going too easy on Trump. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
> 
> The other narrative promoted by some in this thread is "liberal media bias". That's an old GOP talking point.


Now we are getting someplace. If Trump is a clever con man and not a lunatic then what do you make of all the main stream media reports of his speeches?

For example - Trump - Hillary is a big proponent of gun control. She hates guns. So why doesn't she disarm her Secret Service agents? Why should she be surrounded by guns while trying to take yours away? Let her give up her own guns first. That would be a bad idea, I don't think she should really do that. It might be dangerous. But it illustrates the point, let's keep the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

Main stream media - TRUMP THREATENS TO KILL HILLARY

If you listen to Trump you hear one thing, if you only listen to mass media reports you get something completely different. Compare and contrast, but listen to the original first. Then you will see why there is such a difference between the people who attend his speeches and hear what he actually said, and those who follow the MSM. Both think the other is crazy, and for good reason. Both hear completely different things. Both think the other is delusional but it is only because they have different sources of information.

Next question. If you do this enough the MSM bias becomes undeniable. Then you have to ask yourself what their angle is.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Now we are getting someplace. If Trump is a clever con man and not a lunatic then what do you make of all the main stream media reports of his speeches?
> 
> For example - Trump - Hillary is a big proponent of gun control. She hates guns. So why doesn't she disarm her Secret Service agents? Why should she be surrounded by guns while trying to take yours away? Let her give up her own guns first. That would be a bad idea, I don't think she should really do that. It might be dangerous. But it illustrates the point, let's keep the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
> 
> Main stream media - TRUMP THREATENS TO KILL HILLARY
> 
> If you listen to Trump you hear one thing, if you only listen to mass media reports you get something completely different. Compare and contrast, but listen to the original first. Then you will see why there is such a difference between the people who attend his speeches and hear what he actually said, and those who follow the MSM. Both think the other is crazy, and for good reason. Both hear completely different things. Both think the other is delusional but it is only because they have different sources of information.
> 
> Next question. If you do this enough the MSM bias becomes undeniable. Then you have to ask yourself what their angle is.


What the MSM is doing would have been very powerful in 1986-the problem is that this is 2016 and they are behaving exactly like it is 1986-as an example, they sold the Hillary "fainting" nonsense even after millions of people watched the actual video on youtube-all they are doing is cementing the public's opinion that they are totally dishonest.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The Donald held a press conference at which he promised to make a major announcement. A number of military men endorsed him, and at the end he announced that Obama was born in the US. The media was furious at how he had played them. He never gave a damn where Obama was born, it was part of the shtick he used to advance his run at the Presidency, now that it has served its purpose it is time to discard it and look less loony and more Presidential.
> 
> There are only two possibilities. One is, Donald Trump is a world class bullshit artist who has come from nowhere to within sight of the Presidency thanks to his ability to influence people.
> 
> The other possibility is that he is a space cadet who shoots off his mouth about anything that enters his head, without considering the consequences. And by a giant fluke of billions to one chances, saw off 13 top Republican politicians one by one and is now neck and neck with Clinton in the home stretch - purely by accident. I can't even calculate the odds of this happening by chance but it makes winning the lottery look like a cinch.
> 
> The only logical conclusion is that he is crazy like a fox and has bamboozled everybody except Scott Adams.


Anyone who takes this view forfeits any right to complain about Hillary being dishonest.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Look-you are literally the only person on planet earth that is unaware that the NYT is opposed to Donald Trump as POTUS-why is this even so important to you? I was just commenting on your habit of commanding other posters to do your legwork for you-use google once in a while before you comment.



please stop changing the topic to avoid your own slanderous guilt.

the allegation was that the New York Times *hates* donald trump and has *stated* that it will not cover his news fairly.

those are repulsive lies.

parties such as yourself & bass player who incessantly post lies should be prepared to try to back them up with reputable links. We've already gone through this with the sequence of doKtor epiPen lies. 

there is not a single shred of truth to the allegation that the NY Times ever stated it would cover election news unfairly. 

.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Now we are getting someplace. If Trump is a clever con man and not a lunatic then what do you make of all the main stream media reports of his speeches?
> 
> For example - Trump - Hillary is a big proponent of gun control. She hates guns. So why doesn't she disarm her Secret Service agents? Why should she be surrounded by guns while trying to take yours away? Let her give up her own guns first. That would be a bad idea, I don't think she should really do that. It might be dangerous. But it illustrates the point, let's keep the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
> 
> Main stream media - TRUMP THREATENS TO KILL HILLARY
> 
> If you listen to Trump you hear one thing, if you only listen to mass media reports you get something completely different. Compare and contrast, but listen to the original first. Then you will see why there is such a difference between the people who attend his speeches and hear what he actually said, and those who follow the MSM. Both think the other is crazy, and for good reason. Both hear completely different things. Both think the other is delusional but it is only because they have different sources of information.
> 
> Next question. If you do this enough the MSM bias becomes undeniable. Then you have to ask yourself what their angle is.


Hillary has never proposed taking away most guns from most responsible gun owners. The absolutists who insist that people on the terrorist watch list should be able to own & acquire as much high powered weaponry as they want are the ones who in disagreement with the vast majority of Americans, who support sensible gun control in certain circumstances.


----------



## indexxx

SMK said:


> It's establishment backlash on a global scale.
> 
> Perhaps the "stupid people" know the difference between rhetoric and reality. Funny how many have taken Trump's words literally.


Is this saying then that he reactively and emotionally speaks without thinking, and also does mot mean what he says? Not a good character endorsement in my books and definitely not coming from a would-be leader.


----------



## indexxx

SMK said:


> Trustworthiness has been an issue with Clinton from way back even before Trump was in the picture. Voters elected unknown Obama once upon a time, but was it trust that got him elected in 2008?
> Do you trust that Trump will build the wall, shoot Iranian ships out of the water? I don't.


But aren't we supposed to trust our leaders to do what they say they will do? Aren't their words their currency? Are they not meant to know the issues and have reasoned solutions to those issues? While I feel Trump has some good points to him, and is probably an entertaining guy to have a few beers with, he is far too reactive, volatile, and inexperienced in national and world politics to be an effective President in the US and on the world stage. He appears to think his campaign needs shock value and sensationalism and irreverent comments. Not someone I would want in that office.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> But aren't we supposed to trust our leaders to do what they say they will do? Aren't their words their currency? Are they not meant to know the issues and have reasoned solutions to those issues? While I feel Trump has some good points to him, and is probably an entertaining guy to have a few beers with, he is far too reactive, volatile, and inexperienced in national and world politics to be an effective President in the US and on the world stage. He appears to think his campaign needs shock value and sensationalism and irreverent comments. Not someone I would want in that office.


You summed it up with that beers comment-Trump is a far more likeable person than Crooked Hillary-people are missing that part-even likely Hillary voters dislike her intensely.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> Anyone who takes this view forfeits any right to complain about Hillary being dishonest.


Why can't they both be liars? Why can't the media be liars too?


----------



## TomB19

indexxx said:


> He appears to think his campaign needs shock value and sensationalism and irreverent comments.


I think he is correct, in this assumption. He is outstanding at providing these things.

If he could dial down the crazy, he would have had a strong win. As it is, he is almost certain to lose. We'll see.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> Hillary has never proposed taking away most guns from most responsible gun owners. The absolutists who insist that people on the terrorist watch list should be able to own & acquire as much high powered weaponry as they want are the ones who in disagreement with the vast majority of Americans, who support sensible gun control in certain circumstances.


I was talking about the difference between what Trump says and what the main stream media reports. If you watch the videos of his speeches then see what the media says the spin is obvious.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> I think he is correct, in this assumption. He is outstanding at providing these things.
> 
> If he could dial down the crazy, he would have had a strong win. As it is, he is almost certain to lose. We'll see.


For the past 3 weeks he has been dialing down the crazy and acting Presidential and his poll numbers are going up.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> For the past 3 weeks he has been dialing down the crazy and acting Presidential and his poll numbers are going up.


Trump has been helped by Hillary's serious health problems-the other day she gave a talk on her plane and she looked laughably doped-lots of views on youtube.


----------



## sags

LOL....for months now Republicans have been saying.....if only Trump could hide his true self and appear "Presidential" we could win.

And then what do they plan to do after he was elected ? Talk to him..............LOL.........they tried that.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Trump has been helped by Hillary's serious health problems-the other day she gave a talk on her plane and she looked laughably doped-lots of views on youtube.



hmmmn we've heard this voice before in cmf forum

long before she debuted last month as the nelleykins, i mean

same language signature, same vocabulary, same tiresome crank caller .:biggrin:


.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Why can't they both be liars? Why can't the media be liars too?



rusty u are right as usual. If everybody lies reliably, perpetually, 100% of the time, then we might have a scenario we could count upon.


.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Now we are getting someplace. If Trump is a clever con man and not a lunatic then what do you make of all the main stream media reports of his speeches?
> 
> For example - Trump - Hillary is a big proponent of gun control. She hates guns. So why doesn't she disarm her Secret Service agents? Why should she be surrounded by guns while trying to take yours away? Let her give up her own guns first. That would be a bad idea, I don't think she should really do that. It might be dangerous. But it illustrates the point, let's keep the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
> 
> Main stream media - TRUMP THREATENS TO KILL HILLARY
> 
> If you listen to Trump you hear one thing, if you only listen to mass media reports you get something completely different. Compare and contrast, but listen to the original first. Then you will see why there is such a difference between the people who attend his speeches and hear what he actually said, and those who follow the MSM. Both think the other is crazy, and for good reason. Both hear completely different things. Both think the other is delusional but it is only because they have different sources of information.
> 
> Next question. If you do this enough the MSM bias becomes undeniable. Then you have to ask yourself what their angle is.


This is where your own bias shows. The media provided videos of Trump's speech. They also reported the narrative from the other side - I.e. That Trump doubled down on his prior comment about the second-amendment folks stopping Clinton. Believe whatever you want about what Trump meant but don't whine about the media reporting both sides.

CNN include both Democratic and Republican operatives on their talking heads panels. Do you demand that only Republicans be allowed to comment on Trump?

The NYT has never liked the Clintons Anybody who claims that are pro-Hillary has probably never read it.

Sorry Rusty, if you are seriously think there is a generic liberal media bias then you have voluntarily renounced your objectivity.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> This is where your own bias shows. The media provided videos of Trump's speech. They also reported the narrative from the other side - I.e. That Trump doubled down on his prior comment about the second-amendment folks stopping Clinton. Believe whatever you want about what Trump meant but don't whine about the media reporting both sides.
> 
> CNN include both Democratic and Republican operatives on their talking heads panels. Do you demand that only Republicans be allowed to comment on Trump?
> 
> The NYT has never liked the Clintons Anybody who claims that are pro-Hillary has probably never read it.
> 
> Sorry Rusty, if you are seriously think there is a generic liberal media bias then you have voluntarily renounced your objectivity.


Crooked Hillary is about as "liberal" as Josef Stalin. The neocons love this criminal and hate Trump because what she has promised them is continual war. She has publicly vowed to destroy the alternative media if she is elected-she dedicated an entire speech to this hate-some "liberal".


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> ... if you are seriously think there is a generic liberal media bias then you have voluntarily renounced your objectivity.


I think there was a liberal in media, back in the 90s. These days, the bias is toward big business. I believe CNN has treated Trump terribly, in part, because he would not be good for Viacom.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> LOL....for months now Republicans have been saying.....if only Trump could hide his true self and appear "Presidential" we could win.


That's what is at issue on many levels- what is his 'true self' that people are wanting to put into the oval office? Should not a candidate in an election be showing their best character? He has so much bluster and smoke coming out of him. He just does not come across as a thoughtful, reasoned, balanced and caring person fit for government leadership. 

As far as being likeable, which was mentioned by another post above, that is a bit less important in my view. In my working life, I've always said I would rather be trusted than liked. While I am not a conservative, I agree with a few of their policies and positions, and thought McCain would have made a good president although I was ecstatic when Obama won. Mccain was reasoned, balanced, forthright, reasonably moderate, and experienced in the public sector.

Here in Canada, I do not feel I would like Harper on a personal level, however I believe he was a good leader and got us through some very tough economic times better than most other countries. I was hoping for an NDP win this last election. Not sure about Justin yet. 

Left-leaning people on this forum have been repeatedly labelled 'sheep'- that is a fairly offensive and inflammatory remark. My personal observation and opinion from casually watching US politics is that he opposite is more apt to be true. A Republican will cheer on and support just about anyone running simply because they are Republican- witness Sarah Palin. She was about as clueless and conniving as they come yet people were fanatical about her. Bush Jr was an idiot and hated by most of the world outside the US- but he's claimed to be one of the best presidents ever by the Right. It's the us-against-them mindset, which I feel is outdated thinking. It leads to 'team' support at almost any cost (witness Rob Ford's debacles)- meaning 'anyone on our team is 100% right on everything because they're on our team, everyone else is wrong or stupid because they're not'. And that's the same attitude as religious divisionism that's been causing so many problems in the world for centuries. That's one of the things I really liked about Obama when he got it; he understood this and made a point to look to both parties for ideas.

I don't follow politics, don't care much about it, so these are fairly subjective and detached observations. But man, has this thread been hilariously entertaining!


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> That's what is at issue on many levels- what is his 'true self' that people are wanting to put into the oval office? Should not a candidate in an election be showing their best character? He has so much bluster and smoke coming out of him. He just does not come across as a thoughtful, reasoned, balanced and caring person fit for government leadership.
> 
> As far as being likeable, which was mentioned by another post above, that is a bit less important in my view. In my working life, I've always said I would rather be trusted than liked. While I am not a conservative, I agree with a few of their policies and positions, and thought McCain would have made a good president although I was ecstatic when Obama won. Mccain was reasoned, balanced, forthright, reasonably moderate, and experienced in the public sector.
> 
> Here in Canada, I do not feel I would like Harper on a personal level, however I believe he was a good leader and got us through some very tough economic times better than most other countries. I was hoping for an NDP win this last election. Not sure about Justin yet.
> 
> Left-leaning people on this forum have been repeatedly labelled 'sheep'- that is a fairly offensive and inflammatory remark. My personal observation and opinion from casually watching US politics is that he opposite is more apt to be true. A Republican will cheer on and support just about anyone running simply because they are Republican- witness Sarah Palin. She was about as clueless and conniving as they come yet people were fanatical about her. Bush Jr was an idiot and hated by most of the world outside the US- but he's claimed to be one of the best presidents ever by the Right. It's the us-against-them mindset, which I feel is outdated thinking. It leads to 'team' support at almost any cost (witness Rob Ford's debacles)- meaning 'anyone on our team is 100% right on everything because they're on our team, everyone else is wrong or stupid because they're not'. And that's the same attitude as religious divisionism that's been causing so many problems in the world for centuries. That's one of the things I really liked about Obama when he got it; he understood this and made a point to look to both parties for ideas.
> 
> I don't follow politics, don't care much about it, so these are fairly objective and detached observations. But man, has this thread been hilariously entertaining!


NO-you are totally wrong on this one-it is Donald Trump that has attacked the presidency of Bush Jr-Crooked Hillary has taken pains not to offend the neocons by doing so. This whole right wing/left wing thing is dead-Trump is the first truly successful independent candidate-that is why the Repub establishment did everything they could to stop him-what the USA right now is ONE PARTY-and Trump and Sanders are both on the outside against it.


----------



## Nelley

The other thing is-SHEEP doesn't refer to left or ring wing or goalie-a Sheep is anyone who blindly follows authority figures such as the MSM or boob tube.


----------



## SMK

indexxx said:


> Mccain was reasoned, balanced, forthright, reasonably moderate, and experienced in the public sector - witness Sarah Palin. She was about as clueless and conniving as they come yet people were fanatical about her.


McCain chose Palin as VP and lost all reason the moment he did that.


----------



## sags

I agree that Palin was a big mistake that John McCain must regret, but unlike Trump he accepts full responsibility for the loss instead of blaming anyone else for the defeat. Remember also it was John McCain who publicly chastised Trump's birthers way back then.

But Trump doesn't care much for McCain's ethics. He doesn't consider McCain a war hero because he was captured.

It must pain McCain and Mitt Romney considerably that the timing was wrong for both of them.

Against Hillary Clinton, given the level of discontent...........either McCain or Romney could have won this election.

Right place...........wrong time.


----------



## sags

Trump said he wants police to "profile" all Muslims, and presumably anyone who looks like they might be a Muslim.

Even Fox News said that besides the idea being un-Constitutional, it is a bad idea that couldn't be implemented.

What would be the effect that Donald Trump imagines. A couple dining out get rousted by the police because they look Muslim ?

Do the police comb movie theaters and shopping malls looking for people who look Muslim ?

Even Fox News said that it would play into the hands of exactly what ISIS wants...........the US to start a war against 1.9 Billion Muslims.

Maybe Trump will build a wall around the entire US to keep out Mexicans, Muslims and perhaps Canadians in the future.


----------



## new dog

We all know Trump is this and that and it is well documented and covered.

My question to you sags and others do you really think Hillary is much better then Trump? I can't see how any of you can credibly think so. She will do everything bad Trump would do except in a different way in my opinion or the bads will add up to the same amount at the very least.


----------



## new dog

Actually maybe I will break it down for you guys.

First of all we all can agree that many things Trump does is negative and some would agree 110 percent if there was such a thing.

Here is how some here see Hillary.

6 percent of Clinton foundation to charity the rest to admin, salaries bonuses whatever
http://nypost.com/2015/04/26/charity-watchdog-clinton-foundation-a-slush-fund/

Still however we are to believe it goes to investments for future charitable work so it is all positive right. 

FBI investigation = Nothing to see here no problem

Leaked e-mails = Russia or Trump's fault, Hillary is a victim

Clinton meeting the AG on the tarmac = Nothing just friendly conversation 

Clinton is sick = Nothing to see here

We can go on and on and it is all positive or nothing to see here for Hillary. She would make a great president with really zero negatives to say about her.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> Actually maybe I will break it down for you guys.
> 
> First of all we all can agree that many things Trump does is negative and some would agree 110 percent if there was such a thing.
> 
> Here is how some here see Hillary.
> 
> 6 percent of Clinton foundation to charity the rest to admin, salaries bonuses whatever
> http://nypost.com/2015/04/26/charity-watchdog-clinton-foundation-a-slush-fund/
> 
> Still however we are to believe it goes to investments for future charitable work so it is all positive right.
> 
> FBI investigation = Nothing to see here no problem
> 
> Leaked e-mails = Russia or Trump's fault, Hillary is a victim
> 
> Clinton meeting the AG on the tarmac = Nothing just friendly conversation
> 
> Clinton is sick = Nothing to see here
> 
> We can go on and on and it is all positive or nothing to see here for Hillary. She would make a great president with really zero negatives to say about her.


It really is comical when sheep defend any "charity" that gives 6% of your funds to charity and keeps the rest. I know-complicated investment algorithms and professionals with suits and ties and paper to shuffle and meetings to be held all cost a lot of money.


----------



## TomB19

You partisan hacks are amusing.

The 6% figure turned out to be complete rubbish, as almost all Republican talking points turn out to be.

The number Carly Fiorina cited was in reference to the funds the Clinton Foundation gives to other charities. In effect, this is outsourced charities. Most of the charitable work done by CF is retail, so it is directly dispersed.

Surely, you two gentlemen are capable of understanding the idea of in house versus outsourcing? You are hanging out on an investment site. You should be able to read a balance sheet and you should know that you can't redefine one number and misrepresent it to a group that is reasonably fluent in accounting.

I'm embarrassed for you. You need to misrepresent something that we aren't as familiar with, if you wish to gain sway with this group. I suggest the body double conspiracy, as it is highly entertaining, but you are free to select your conspiracies as you wish.


----------



## TomB19

The issue I have with the conspiracy silliness, is that it tends to put me in the camp with more socialized financial philosophy. I'm OK with that, but my sensibilities lay more with a libertarian approach.

I wonder how many people are equally displaced? How many fiscal conservatives will be voting for Hillary because of their disdain for the crazy train. I mean, how many people want to be associated with the body double, mass murder, ISIS creating, and everything else free thinking hacks can dream up, crap?

For what it's worth, I think the party first, country second, approach is approaching traitorous. True patriots will work to improve the country any way they can.

Most disturbing is watching this crap filter into Canada.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> You partisan hacks are amusing.
> 
> The 6% figure turned out to be complete rubbish, as almost all Republican talking points turn out to be.
> 
> The number Carly Fiorina cited was in reference to the funds the Clinton Foundation gives to other charities. In effect, this is outsourced charities. Most of the charitable work done by CF is retail, so it is directly dispersed.
> 
> Surely, you two gentlemen are capable of understanding the idea of in house versus outsourcing? You are hanging out on an investment site. You should be able to read a balance sheet and you should know that you can't redefine one number and misrepresent it to a group that is reasonably fluent in accounting.
> 
> I'm embarrassed for you. You need to misrepresent something that we aren't as familiar with, if you wish to gain sway with this group. I suggest the body double conspiracy, as it is highly entertaining, but you are free to select your conspiracies as you wish.


Einstein: 6%, 7%, 8% who cares? IMO it is a frigging farce when a "charity" gives less than 50% of all funds it receives to CHARITY. Go study one of your important balance sheets Jethro.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> The issue I have with the conspiracy silliness, is that it tends to put me in the camp with more socialized financial philosophy. I'm OK with that, but my sensibilities lay more with a libertarian approach.
> 
> I wonder how many people are equally displaced? How many fiscal conservatives will be voting for Hillary because of their disdain for the crazy train. I mean, how many people want to be associated with the body double, mass murder, ISIS creating, and everything else free thinking hacks can dream up, crap?
> 
> For what it's worth, I think the party first, country second, approach is approaching traitorous. True patriots will work to improve the country any way they can.
> 
> Most disturbing is watching this crap filter into Canada.


And how do you think the crazy conspiracy nuts regard TomB19? We can assume they think you are nothing but a stupid sheep who long ago lost the ability for logical analysis of anything, realizes it, and thus scurries around in fear like a mouse looking for cheese scraps from his owners.


----------



## new dog

OK strike out the Clinton foundation if you will because there are lots of so called positives or nothing to see here, as many call these things listed above. The point is still how people think this makes a good president. 

Lets me say once again Trump looks like he will be a lousy president and i am not afraid to say so.


----------



## bgc_fan

Nelley said:


> Einstein: 6%, 7%, 8% who cares? IMO it is a frigging farce when a "charity" gives less than 50% of all funds it receives to CHARITY. Go study one of your important balance sheets Jethro.


How about 89%? Or is that too low still? 

As Tom states, the foundation hires and pays for the people to do the work like going to Africa to train farmers, get them access to equipment and products to market.

The Clinton Foundation isn't like the United Way which does fundraising and disperses the money to charities that do the work. The CF hires the people directly to do the work which is why saying the CF only spent 6% on charitable works is misleading to say the least.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> This is where your own bias shows. The media provided videos of Trump's speech. They also reported the narrative from the other side - I.e. That Trump doubled down on his prior comment about the second-amendment folks stopping Clinton. Believe whatever you want about what Trump meant but don't whine about the media reporting both sides.
> 
> CNN include both Democratic and Republican operatives on their talking heads panels. Do you demand that only Republicans be allowed to comment on Trump?
> 
> The NYT has never liked the Clintons Anybody who claims that are pro-Hillary has probably never read it.
> 
> Sorry Rusty, if you are seriously think there is a generic liberal media bias then you have voluntarily renounced your objectivity.


I started by reading the MSM then compared it to actual speeches on Youtube and found the MSM routinely exaggerated and misinterpreted what Trump said. Did the same thing with Hillary and found similar bias. Some of them are so far off the beam as to be funny.

To be crystal clear I don't like either Trump or Clinton and I don't think either of them is fit to be President. I find it hard to believe that they are the best of the best out of a nation of more than 300 million. 

I find the campaign interesting for what it isn't and for what it is. I would like to see two competent politicians put forward their ideas and programs for the voters to chose between but that is not how politics works these days. Instead we have two competing sales campaigns that are spinning farther and farther away from reality and nobody seems to notice. I don't know what is going on but I know the public is being bamboozled every day.


----------



## Nelley

bgc_fan said:


> How about 89%? Or is that too low still?
> 
> As Tom states, the foundation hires and pays for the people to do the work like going to Africa to train farmers, get them access to equipment and products to market.
> 
> The Clinton Foundation isn't like the United Way which does fundraising and disperses the money to charities that do the work. The CF hires the people directly to do the work which is why saying the CF only spent 6% on charitable works is misleading to say the least.


Just from looking at that website the 89% looks VERY suspect-they are simply saying that 11% is specifically spent on overhead-so if you are hired to run a program, your salary would be in the "89%". Whatever.


----------



## sags

Carly "charity begins at home" Fiorina, levied the 6% accusation ?

The same Carly Fiorina who drove HP right into the ground and was forced to resign ?

_Writing in Fortune magazine in August 2015, Jeffrey Sonnenfeld described the hiring as the result of "a dysfunctional HP board committee, filled with its own poisoned politics, hired her with no CEO experience, nor interviews with the full board." Fiorina received a larger signing offer than any of her predecessors, including: US$65 million in restricted stock to compensate her for the Lucent stock and options she left behind, a US$3 million signing bonus, a US$1 million annual salary (plus a US$1.25–US$3.75 million annual bonus), US$36,000 in mortgage assistance, a relocation allowance, and permission (and encouragement) to use company planes for personal affairs._


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> And how do you think the crazy conspiracy nuts regard TomB19? We can assume they think you are nothing but a stupid sheep who long ago lost the ability for logical analysis of anything, realizes it, and thus scurries around in fear like a mouse looking for cheese scraps from his owners.



folks posting today that they are finding this thread hilarious are right. The above is delicious/hilarious.

.


----------



## mrPPincer

bgc_fan said:


> How about 89%? Or is that too low still?
> 
> As Tom states, the foundation hires and pays for the people to do the work like going to Africa to train farmers, get them access to equipment and products to market.
> 
> The Clinton Foundation isn't like the United Way which does fundraising and disperses the money to charities that do the work. The CF hires the people directly to do the work which is why saying the CF only spent 6% on charitable works is misleading to say the least.


^hahaha.. ping!
There goes another tin can shot off the ol' conspiracy theory fence 

I'm sure there's more tin can theories about to be set up shortly by our industrious friends; this is entertaining :encouragement:


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> folks posting today that they are finding this thread hilarious are right. The above is delicious/hilarious.
> 
> .


You do seem to spend an awful lot of time thinking about me.


----------



## sags

Reminds me of the days when I debated with local United Way organizers, that we should begin to set up a foundation and keep some of the capital raised every year to generate income for the cause in the future. 

Instead of...........every year, the "goal" was raised and raised and raised.

They couldn't understand the concept either. We have to give it all away.............they said.


----------



## bgc_fan

Nelley said:


> Just from looking at that website the 89% looks VERY suspect-they are simply saying that 11% is specifically spent on overhead-so if you are hired to run a program, your salary would be in the "89%". Whatever.


It's up to you whether you accept it, but anything that counters your perception gets rejected as a conspiracy or lies, so it is not really worth debating with you.

But yes, someone paid to run the program does count towards the charitable portion. You will readily accept that donating to something like March of dimes will give you 100% marks for charity even though a portion of that goes towards overhead and not all of it goes to the actual work.


----------



## bgc_fan

sags said:


> Reminds me of the days when I debated with local United Way organizers, that we should begin to set up a foundation and keep some of the capital raised every year to generate income for the cause in the future.
> 
> Instead of...........every year, the "goal" was raised and raised and raised.
> 
> They couldn't understand the concept either. We have to give it all away.............they said.


I suspect it has to do with their mandate. United Way is more of an organization that is built only to fundraise and collect funds to distribute to charities. I guess in theory it would reduce the overhead required by the receiving charities as doing a national campaign does cost quite a bit.


----------



## Nelley

bgc_fan said:


> It's up to you whether you accept it, but anything that counters your perception gets rejected as a conspiracy or lies, so it is not really worth debating with you.
> 
> But yes, someone paid to run the program does count towards the charitable portion. You will readily accept that donating to something like March of dimes will give you 100% marks for charity even though a portion of that goes towards overhead and not all of it goes to the actual work.


We finally agree on something-debating anything with you is pointless.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> We finally agree on something-debating anything with you is pointless.


Seems accurate.. Unless the point is for you Nelly to stop counting sheep and wake up to the fact that none of these wacko targeted conspiracy theories have stood up to the light of day so far.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Seems accurate.. Unless the point is for you Nelly to stop counting sheep and wake up to the fact that none of these wacko targeted conspiracy theories have stood up to the light of day so far.


dsnwfefk;fknmgmgl;mgl;magl;magl;- that is about as useful as anything you have typed here to date.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> dsnwfefk;fknmgmgl;mgl;magl;magl;- that is about as useful as anything you have typed here to date.


My mistake, I'm such a moron, I used words, my apologies, here, look, shiny..

___


----------



## new dog

Sorry my fault I mentioned the darn foundation which I don't want to debate because there is enough said on it. I just want to know why after all the stuff you hear and see on Hillary you would still back her even if Trump wasn't running. Don't forget what happened to Bernie as well in the run up to the two candidates.


----------



## mrPPincer

What they did re Bernie is disturbing yes, but, with Trump as the only current opponent, there really is no other choice imho.

Hillary is a highly experienced stateman, with a solid team of knowledgeable people.
Unlike Trump she's done a lot of good for people in her time already.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I started by reading the MSM then compared it to actual speeches on Youtube and found the MSM routinely exaggerated and misinterpreted what Trump said. Did the same thing with Hillary and found similar bias. Some of them are so far off the beam as to be funny.
> 
> To be crystal clear I don't like either Trump or Clinton and I don't think either of them is fit to be President. I find it hard to believe that they are the best of the best out of a nation of more than 300 million.
> 
> I find the campaign interesting for what it isn't and for what it is. I would like to see two competent politicians put forward their ideas and programs for the voters to chose between but that is not how politics works these days. Instead we have two competing sales campaigns that are spinning farther and farther away from reality and nobody seems to notice. I don't know what is going on but I know the public is being bamboozled every day.


Fair enough. The written media is probably always going to introduce bias because words are imperfect. 

TV media decide on one or two highlights. If Trump promises an announcement about Birtherism, they are probably going to focus on the 30 seconds about birtherism and not the filler endorsements. I don't view that at media bias so much as a decision to air information that viewers will find entertaining and/or useful. 

The obvious exceptions are individuals who are paid for their opinions. Corey Lewanowski , Paul Begala, SE Cupps etc. 

(In this thread, the initial allegations of media bias came from two individuals (or one individual with two IDs) who were frustrated by fact checkers who debunked their pet conspiracy theories. )


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Fair enough. The written media is probably always going to introduce bias because words are imperfect.
> 
> TV media decide on one or two highlights. If Trump promises an announcement about Birtherism, they are probably going to focus on the 30 seconds about birtherism and not the filler endorsements. I don't view that at media bias so much as a decision to air information that viewers will find entertaining and/or useful.
> 
> The obvious exceptions are individuals who are paid for their opinions. Corey Lewanowski , Paul Begala, SE Cupps etc.
> 
> (In this thread, the initial allegations of media bias came from two individuals (or one individual with two IDs) who were frustrated by fact checkers who debunked their pet conspiracy theories. )


Listen-this whole subject is getting tiresome-but the fact is that the Clinton Foundation is considered to be a massive fraud by most objective observers-simply inserting a link to some page doesn't override reasoned opinions on a subject. NOTE-we are all sick of talking about this, so I understand what your gang believes or pretends to believe and I am happy to let you continue to have that belief, but if you want to claim "debunking" prowess go through the entire Ortell report and debunk it.


----------



## s123

What do you think?

-Syria, Russia: Coalition airstrike kills regime forces：
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/17/middleeast/syria-claims-coalition-airstrike-hit-regime-forces/

The Russian military said 62 Syrian soldiers were killed near Deir Ezzor Airport, according to state media. The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights put the death toll at 83 and said at least 120 soldiers were wounded.
Russia's permanent UN representative, Vitaly Churkin, questioned the timing of the strikes, two days before Russian-American coordination in the fight against terror groups in Syria was to begin.


- US Military Vets Come Out in Support of Donald Trump
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/09/12/us-military-vets-come-out-support-donald-trump.html

Donald Trump's campaign released a letter on September 6 signed by 88 retired military leaders endorsing his presidential candidacy, including four four-star generals and 14 three-star flag officers.

The veterans are sharply critical of the Obama administration's national security and foreign policy.

The group of signatories is represented by people who** have served the United States with dignity and honor. Organizing the letter, according to the Trump campaign, were Rear Admiral Charles Williams, a Vietnam veteran awarded the Legion of Merit, and Major General Sydney Shachnow, a former Green Beret, who was the first Holocaust survivor to become a US general. The group also includes Gen. Burwell Bell, a retired four-star general who has commanded US forces in Korea.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Listen-this whole subject is getting tiresome-but the fact is that the Clinton Foundation is considered to be a massive fraud by most objective observers-simply inserting a link to some page doesn't override reasoned opinions on a subject. NOTE-we are all sick of talking about this, so I understand what your gang believes or pretends to believe and I am happy to let you continue to have that belief, but if you want to claim "debunking" prowess go through the entire Ortell report and debunk it.


I said nothing about the Clinton Foundation. Perhaps the voices in your head confused you.


----------



## mrPPincer

s123 said:


> What do you think?
> 
> -Syria, Russia: Coalition airstrike kills regime forces：
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/17/middleeast/syria-claims-coalition-airstrike-hit-regime-forces/
> 
> The Russian military said 62 Syrian soldiers were killed near Deir Ezzor Airport, according to state media. The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights put the death toll at 83 and said at least 120 soldiers were wounded.
> Russia's permanent UN representative, Vitaly Churkin, questioned the timing of the strikes, two days before Russian-American coordination in the fight against terror groups in Syria was to begin.
> 
> 
> - US Military Vets Come Out in Support of Donald Trump
> http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/09/12/us-military-vets-come-out-support-donald-trump.html
> 
> Donald Trump's campaign released a letter on September 6 signed by 88 retired military leaders endorsing his presidential candidacy, including four four-star generals and 14 three-star flag officers.
> 
> The veterans are sharply critical of the Obama administration's national security and foreign policy.
> 
> The group of signatories is represented by people who** have served the United States with dignity and honor. Organizing the letter, according to the Trump campaign, were Rear Admiral Charles Williams, a Vietnam veteran awarded the Legion of Merit, and Major General Sydney Shachnow, a former Green Beret, who was the first Holocaust survivor to become a US general. The group also includes Gen. Burwell Bell, a retired four-star general who has commanded US forces in Korea.


Beyond my pay grade on both, but thanks for trying to get this thread back on track.

I'll be mulling it over. Curious, are any veterans even following this thread at this point?


----------



## andrewf

I wonder how many eligible voters are following this thread at this point. Really, do many Americans spend their time reading Canadian personal finance forums?


----------



## indexxx

TomB19 said:


> For what it's worth, I think the party first, country second, approach is approaching traitorous. True patriots will work to improve the country any way they can.


Agree 100% as alluded in one of my posts above.


----------



## indexxx

I was thinking today (I know- first time for everything...) that since Trump wants to build his wall of shame to keep out the Mexicans if he's elected, we should do likewise:

Canada will build a wall to keep out all the Americans that have sworn to move to Canada if Trump is elected- and we'll make Trump pay for it!!


----------



## humble_pie

s123 said:


> - US Military Vets Come Out in Support of Donald Trump
> 
> http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/09/12/us-military-vets-come-out-support-donald-trump.html
> 
> Donald Trump's campaign released a letter on September 6 signed by 88 retired military leaders endorsing his presidential candidacy, including four four-star generals and 14 three-star flag officers.
> 
> The veterans are sharply critical of the Obama administration's national security and foreign policy.
> 
> The group of signatories is represented by people who** have served the United States with dignity and honor. Organizing the letter, according to the Trump campaign, were Rear Admiral Charles Williams, a Vietnam veteran awarded the Legion of Merit, and Major General Sydney Shachnow, a former Green Beret, who was the first Holocaust survivor to become a US general. The group also includes Gen. Burwell Bell, a retired four-star general who has commanded US forces in Korea.




the Atlantic says Meh. Eighty-eight veterans is piffle, says the Atlantic. Mitt Romney in 2012 unfurled a list of no less than 500 retired United States generals & admirals who endorsed his republican candidacy for president.

_" Compare Trump’s haul of 88 to the 500 retired generals and admirals who took out a full-page ad in support of Mitt Romney on the eve of the 2012 presidential election. Romney had some big names, too."_

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...military-leaders-isnt-that-impressive/498806/


plus one should look closely at that strategic-culture dot org source. Headed up by uber left journo Wayne Madsen, often described as a conspiracy theory co-founder.

most of the strategic-culture "authors" are russian. The emphasis is heavily pro-moscow propaganda, heavily anti-west. 

lastly, one should look carefully at the ages of those circa WW II / Korean war generals. Most - not all but most - are in their 80s now. Have they all clearly & lucidly understood what they were doing, if they did indeed endorse donald trump? 

general Sidney Shachnow, for example, was a lifelong small-"l" liberal democrat who served as military advisor to the new york city council on foreign relations. What could have caused him to suddenly change his politics so drastically at the age of 82? one has to wonder if the trump campaign has stooped to hauling frail old soldiers out of veterans' hospitals ...


.


----------



## sharonpope

Hillary all the way, Trump doesn't stand a chance against her and in my personal opinion he shouldn't win.


----------



## Nelley

Here is a question for all the Crooked Hillary supporters: Is the USA on sound financial footing currently? It sounds like there is a consensus that simply continuing the policies of the last 20 years forever will work great-this is what she is promising. WARNING: according to the MSM everything is peachy keen so if you acknowledge anything fundamentally askew you have joined the ranks of the dreaded ''conspiracy theorists". Good luck.


----------



## andrewf

Trump hasn't proposed any realistic changes. What he's proposed so far would literally (not metaphorically) bankrupt the country. How would you know what Trump would do? He won't take advice, and he has no understanding of public finance.


----------



## humble_pie

lol is canada on sound financial footing? is any country wheresoever in the world on sound financial footing?

we are floating on thin tectonic plates with boiling red hot lava beneath. Anything could crash anywhere at any time. Still, that's no reason to deliberately elect an ignorant flap-mouthed buffoon in a dyed orange fright wig.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> lol is canada on sound financial footing? is any country wheresoever in the world on sound financial footing?
> 
> we are floating on thin tectonic plates with boiling red hot lava beneath. Anything could crash anywhere at any time. Still, that's no reason to deliberately elect an ignorant flap-mouthed buffoon in a dyed orange fright wig.


DING DING DING-We have a winner! Congrats Humble-welcome to the dark side of the Conspiracy Theory-I always knew you had it in you.


----------



## humble_pie

thanks for agreeing that the donald is an ignorant flap-mouthed buffoon in a dyed orange fright wig


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> thanks for agreeing that the donald is an ignorant flap-mouthed buffoon in a dyed orange fright wig


You sound just like Trump when you talk about the economy-you aren't his economic adviser by any chance?


----------



## humble_pie

i never talk about "the economy"


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i never talk about "the economy"


Alzheimers starts with short term memory loss-I advise you get to the nearest clinic ASAP.


----------



## humble_pie

like they say on here, you're hearing those voices again

what could a poor dumb crumb possibly know about an economy


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> like they say on here, you're hearing those voices again
> 
> what could a poor dumb crumb possibly know about an economy


Very eloquent-I don't know who is declining faster-you or Crooked Hillary.


----------



## TomB19

A clear sign of having no defensible argument is switching to personal attacks. That holds as true for Trump as it does for you, Nelley.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> A clear sign of having no defensible argument is switching to personal attacks. That holds as true for Trump as it does for you, Nelley.


You don't sound like you went to charm school.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley, why don't you explain to us what the Republicans stand for, other than repealing health care?

They certainly don't stand for smaller government. Republican administrations have increased the size of government more than Democrats. 

They certainly don't stand for balancing the books. Look what they've done to the economy?

It's fair to say that Republicans stand for war but so do many Democrats, including Hillary.

Seriously, what is the platform for improving America? There must be some strategy for governance, or have they been too busy releasing conspiracy theories?


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Nelley, why don't you explain to us what the Republicans stand for, other than repealing health care?
> 
> They certainly don't stand for smaller government. Republican administrations have increased the size of government more than Democrats.
> 
> They certainly don't stand for balancing the books. Look what they've done to the economy?
> 
> It's fair to say that Republicans stand for war but so do many Democrats, including Hillary.
> 
> Seriously, what is the platform for improving America? There must be some strategy for governance, or have they been too busy releasing conspiracy theories?


The Republican establishment is backing Crooked Hillary-George Bush Sr just came out publicly today supporting the criminal-it is in the MSM so don't be frightened-it isnt a scary conspiracy theory.


----------



## TomB19

Has H.W. Bush come out in favor of Bush Sr.?

I read an article that cited third hand observation of Bush saying he would vote for Hillary but that's hardly an endorsement. What is your source?

Trump seems to appeal to the same group of folks who think Sarah Palin is great.

As best I can tell, there are less conservatives than there are Republicans. By "conservative", I mean smaller government, balanced budgets, civil rights, etc. The Republican party has been annexed by the God and guns movement. You know,... the group of folks who want to tell people who they can marry and force women to have large sticks probed into their vaginas.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Has H.W. Bush come out in favor of Bush Sr.?
> 
> I read an article that cited third hand observation of Bush saying he would vote for Hillary but that's hardly an endorsement. What is your source?
> 
> Trump seems to appeal to the same group of folks who think Sarah Palin is great.
> 
> As best I can tell, there are less conservatives than there are Republicans. By "conservative", I mean smaller government, balanced budgets, civil rights, etc. The Republican party has been annexed by the God and guns movement. You know,... the group of folks who want to tell people who they can marry and force women to have large sticks probed into their vaginas.


WTF? Time to switch your medication.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> WTF? Time to switch your medication.


The best thing about being a whacko is you can dismiss the crazy whenever you want and just jump on the new crazy bandwagon.

Anti-gay rights and transvaginal ultrasounds are part of what your team is all about.

Democrats aren't covered in glory either, but Republican policies are just whacked.

Remember when about half of Republicans thought Obama was a Muslim? lol!

The world would do well if people could filter out some of the crazy. A little cognitive thought would prevent the crazies from gaining the bully pulpit.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> The best thing about being a whacko is you can dismiss the crazy whenever you want and just jump on the new crazy bandwagon.
> 
> Anti-gay rights and transvaginal ultrasounds are part of what your team is all about.
> 
> Democrats aren't covered in glory either, but Republican policies are just whacked.
> 
> Remember when about half of Republicans thought Obama was a Muslim? lol!
> 
> The world would do well if people could filter out some of the crazy. A little cognitive thought would prevent the crazies from gaining the bully pulpit.


Seems like you know a lot about being crazy.


----------



## TomB19

I'm familiar with the phenomenon.


Speaking of crazy, is Obama a Muslim?


----------



## olivaw

This thread is long past serious. Time to talk about Skittles.


----------



## andrewf

So, I guess they should wall off Detroit, Chicago, etc. to keep the bad skittles out of the good America.


----------



## mrPPincer

andrewf said:


> So, I guess they should wall off Detroit, Chicago, etc. to keep the bad skittles out of the good America.


cool, we could adopt them.
As long as the wall is in place ofc, we could just adjust the border a tiny bit, & everybody's good


----------



## Nelley

I don't know for sure what dope they have Crooked Hillary on but it sure is hi-test-jeez-look at those crazy eyes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x72oBpk9WPI


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> I don't know for sure what dope they have Crooked Hillary on but it sure is hi-test-jeez-look at those crazy eyes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x72oBpk9WPI


OMG, IDIOT!!!
listen to the frikkin words


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> OMG, IDIOT!!!
> listen to the frikkin words


LMFAO!-the words are the funniest part-we will put a chicken in every pot-forget that I have been working with these bozos for the last 8 years.


----------



## mrPPincer

The last 8 years have been a story of attempting to recover from the GW era against the headwinds of a republican senate; the next 8 will be different, thanks to the side-show clown's antics.


----------



## sags

Trump may have to drop out of the race if he is arrested and charged.

Evidently there is evidence he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars from his charity to pay court settlements for his private businesses, and used charity money to purchase personal items.

Authorities are investigating the matters.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...tle-lawsuits-and-to-buy-a-portrait-of-himself


----------



## sags

Here is the type of "businessman" that Trump is.

_In the other case in which* a Trump Foundation payment seemed to help settle a legal dispute*, the trouble began with a hole-in-one.

In 2010, a man named Martin Greenberg hit a hole-in-one on the 13th hole while playing in a charity tournament at Trump’s course in Westchester County, N.Y.
Greenberg won a $1 million prize. Briefly.

Later, Greenberg was told that he had won nothing. *The prize’s rules required that the shot had to go 150 yards. But Trump’s course had allegedly made the hole too short.*

Greenberg sued._

Trump is a scammer, has always been a scammer and will always be a scammer.


----------



## mrPPincer

Are you kidding?

ofc he wouldn't pay..

To make up that 1 mil, he'd have to bamboozle another 130 more small business contractors in some job or another, that's a lot of work.. he doesn't have time for that nonsense right now :stupid:


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> I don't know for sure what dope they have Crooked Hillary on but it sure is hi-test-jeez-look at those crazy eyes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x72oBpk9WPI


Wow, now I'm guessing she has some rare degenerative eye disease?


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Here is the type of "businessman" that Trump is.
> 
> _In the other case in which* a Trump Foundation payment seemed to help settle a legal dispute*, the trouble began with a hole-in-one.
> 
> In 2010, a man named Martin Greenberg hit a hole-in-one on the 13th hole while playing in a charity tournament at Trump’s course in Westchester County, N.Y.
> Greenberg won a $1 million prize. Briefly.
> 
> Later, Greenberg was told that he had won nothing. *The prize’s rules required that the shot had to go 150 yards. But Trump’s course had allegedly made the hole too short.*
> 
> Greenberg sued._
> 
> Trump is a scammer, has always been a scammer and will always be a scammer.


Sounds like a Conspiracy Theory to me. Was Elvis at the course?


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Wow, now I'm guessing she has some rare degenerative eye disease?


And what would that be Dr. Spock?


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> And what would that be Dr. Spock?


As opposed to the dr Oz show? LMFAO! :highly_amused:


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> And what would that be Dr. Spock?


You tell me. You have diagnosed Hillary with Parkinsons and epilepsy.


----------



## new dog

Ok lately we haven't heard much crap from Trump and he put to bed the birth issue. He also isn't really preparing for the debate as someone mentioned here. We also know he defeated many republicans to get to where he is now and it seems his rhetoric worked to get him here. 

Do you think maybe he is setting things up so he is underestimated and thus surprises everyone with what he does and says in the debates for maximum impact. I believe Rusty said he may be playing a masterful strategy to put him on top. The debates should make it or break it for him and he may be planning for it more then everyone thinks.


----------



## olivaw

Modern debates aren't really about policy. they're machismo and gotcha moments. Those are Trump's strengths so Hillary Clinton had better be prepared. She can do well if she has a strategy to counter his tactics. 

Trump's one weakness in the primaries was his tendency to zone out whenever the discussion turned to topics that he didn't understand.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

new dog said:


> Ok lately we haven't heard much crap from Trump and he put to bed the birth issue. He also isn't really preparing for the debate as someone mentioned here. We also know he defeated many republicans to get to where he is now and it seems his rhetoric worked to get him here.
> 
> Do you think maybe he is setting things up so he is underestimated and thus surprises everyone with what he does and says in the debates for maximum impact. I believe Rusty said he may be playing a masterful strategy to put him on top. The debates should make it or break it for him and he may be planning for it more then everyone thinks.


It's Scott Adams who thinks Trump is playing a masterful strategy. When you remember that he was bragging about 'the art of the deal' back in the seventies it is no secret he sees himself as a master negotiator and persuader. Adams, an expert in hypnosis and neuro linguistic programming sees evidence of this every time Trump opens his mouth, and predicted his success more than a year ago when no one else gave him a chance.

It's all here on Adams web site. Blog - http://blog.dilbert.com/

Cartoons and blog posts - http://dilbert.com/


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It's Scott Adams who thinks Trump is playing a masterful strategy. When you remember that he was bragging about 'the art of the deal' back in the seventies it is no secret he sees himself as a master negotiator and persuader. Adams, an expert in hypnosis and neuro linguistic programming sees evidence of this every time Trump opens his mouth, and predicted his success more than a year ago when no one else gave him a chance.
> 
> It's all here on Adams web site. Blog - http://blog.dilbert.com/
> 
> Cartoons and blog posts - http://dilbert.com/


To a certain extent, but to keep it in context-that polling "expert" Nate Silver gave Trump a 3% chance of victory a month ago-now he has it at 48%-Trump hasn't changed anything over the last 30 days-Crooked Hillary's campaign is literally falling apart-that is the difference.


----------



## bass player

Hillary cancelled another event yesterday...and this one was a large fundraiser with some donation seats selling for as high as $100,000. No reason was given.

But, I'm sure her health is just fine...


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Hillary cancelled another event yesterday...and this one was a large fundraiser with some donation seats selling for as high as $100,000. No reason was given.
> 
> But, I'm sure her health is just fine...


The photo from the Philly speech shows her needing assistance to simply climb a couple stairs.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> To a certain extent, but to keep it in context-that polling "expert" Nate Silver gave Trump a 3% chance of victory a month ago-now he has it at 48%-Trump hasn't changed anything over the last 30 days-Crooked Hillary's campaign is literally falling apart-that is the difference.


I thought Nate Silver was a moron who couldn't predict anything because he was wrong once?

Your ability to cherry pick what you want to believe is astounding.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I thought Nate Silver was a moron who couldn't predict anything because he was wrong once?
> 
> Your ability to cherry pick what you want to believe is astounding.


Einstein: Nate Silver had a good track record up until Donald Trump-Silver has continually underestimated Trump's chances-sometimes by a huge margin-whether he is doing this by design or just confused the fact that Nate now has come over to the Trump side is of interest. Try to think once in a while BEFORE you type.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> The photo from the Philly speech shows her needing assistance to simply climb a couple stairs.


No, no, no...that's just another right wing conspiracy!!

In reality, Hillary's team must be mortified. She/her handlers were forced to cancel a private, high dollar event. I'm sure in a day or so, they'll come up with a statement trying to excuse yet another probable health related issue, which, of course, the media will immediately accept is as undeniable fact.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Einstein: Nate Silver had a good track record up until Donald Trump-Silver has continually underestimated Trump's chances-sometimes by a huge margin-whether he is doing this by design or just confused the fact that Nate now has come over to the Trump side is of interest. Try to think once in a while BEFORE you type.


I thinks goodly.

Silver does not run a book like Jimmy the Greek. He uses statistics to analyze polls and makes a strong effort to keep his numbers as objective as possible.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> To a certain extent, but to keep it in context-that polling "expert" Nate Silver gave Trump a 3% chance of victory a month ago-now he has it at 48%-Trump hasn't changed anything over the last 30 days-Crooked Hillary's campaign is literally falling apart-that is the difference.


But Trump has changed. Over the last 5 or 6 weeks he has acted less nutty, and more Presidential. He also set up a few "heads I win - tails you lose" scenarios for himself. Like positioning himself as the anti terrorism candidate. IF there was a terrorist outrage that made him look smart and right. If nothing happened nothing happened. You would have to go over Adams' essays to understand but think Jedi mind tricks.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> But Trump has changed. Over the last 5 or 6 weeks he has acted less nutty, and more Presidential. He also set up a few "heads I win - tails you lose" scenarios for himself. Like positioning himself as the anti terrorism candidate. IF there was a terrorist outrage that made him look smart and right. If nothing happened nothing happened. You would have to go over Adams' essays to understand but think Jedi mind tricks.


I have always thought it laughable when people would say how stupid Donald Trump is.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> But Trump has changed. Over the last 5 or 6 weeks he has acted less nutty, and more Presidential.


I tend to think he's done a terrible job by alienating huge reams of the electorate, at times. On the other hand, he has to homogenize a diverse group of people and it can't be easy to do. There is no template for doing so. Perhaps he's breaking new ground so we should cut him some slack. Still, he's been way out there...


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> I have always thought it laughable when people would say how stupid Donald Trump is.


To many people on the left, simply having a different viewpoint immediately brands someone as stupid and/or uneducated...some will even go as far as calling them "deplorables".


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

There was never any point in Trump acting like everyone else. He would have run last in a 14 candidate race. His only chance was to offer a clear choice by doing the opposite of everyone else and it clicked. He would say or do something no one else did, and if it got a response build on that. If it didn't he would drop it. So his base became millions of ordinary Americans who are forgotten and ignored by the big political parties and mainstream media.

Now the primaries are over and he is campaigning for the Presidency and it is time to change to a more statesmanlike approach. Still 2 or 3 steps ahead, still confusing the media pundits who not only don't understand what he is doing, can't figure out what he already did.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I could also ask how Trump, a lifetime Democrat, suddenly turned into a Republican. I suspect it was because he looked over the field and figured he had a better chance as a Republican. I also wonder how this Ivy League educated rich kid famous for his billionaire lifestyle, suddenly became the anti establishment populist candidate.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I could also ask how Trump, a lifetime Democrat, suddenly turned into a Republican. I suspect it was because he looked over the field and figured he had a better chance as a Republican. I also wonder how this Ivy League educated rich kid famous for his billionaire lifestyle, suddenly became the anti establishment populist candidate.


But what does Democrat or Republican mean when the Democrat candidate is the darling of the neocon endless war segment and the Wall Street hedge fund grifter segment? Almost every oligarch supports Clinton while Trump has every working person that doesn't have a government job.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> But what does Democrat or Republican mean when the Democrat candidate is the darling of the neocon endless war segment and the Wall Street hedge fund grifter segment? Almost every oligarch supports Clinton while Trump has every working person that doesn't have a government job.


It annoys me when you share a thought that I agree with.

lol!


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> To many people on the left, simply having a different viewpoint immediately brands someone as stupid and/or uneducated...some will even go as far as calling them "deplorables".


Incorrect and you've deliberately mis-interpreted Hillary's "deplorables" comment, you Republican hack.

Both sides have a large ratio of individuals who mistrust people who don't share their point of view. Republicans do not distinguish themselves in this way. You're one of them. You appear to be someone who will believe anything negative about Hillary, regardless of how ridiculous it is.

As best I can tell, the mistrust phenomenon is about the same on both sides.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Incorrect and you've deliberately mis-interpreted Hillary's "deplorables" comment, you Republican hack.
> 
> Both sides have a large ratio of individuals who mistrust people who don't share their point of view. Republicans do not distinguish themselves in this way. You're one of them. You appear to be someone who will believe anything negative about Hillary, regardless of how ridiculous it is.
> 
> As best I can tell, the mistrust phenomenon is about the same on both sides.


I believe what I see and what I hear, not the media spin. Like many liberal elites, Hillary has contempt for "regular" people...they only exist as votes and a way to further enrich the Clintons. Her lies, corruption, and health issues are obvious but completely ignored by a segment of the population and much of the media. Let's not forget that a couple weeks after collapsing in public and then trying to hide it, Hillary just cancelled a high dollar private fundraiser for unknown reasons. Why would a healthy person do that?

I don't like Trump either, but nothing he has done or "might" do comes close to what Hillary has already done. In addition, Trump does not have a history of unexplained fainting spells, an uncontrollable cough, and a severe concussion that she may not have fully recovered from. He also doesn't need help to navigate a simple set of stairs, and doesn't need someone to come whisper in his ear when he freezes while making a speech.


----------



## TomB19

bass player, I have no doubt that if Hillary was a Republican you would be telling me how fantastic she is and how evil the Democrat is. And further, that you'd have a bunch of made up slander about the Democrat.

Objectivity is an important and worthwhile life skill that is extremely difficult to achieve.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> bass player, I have no doubt that if Hillary was a Republican you would be telling me how fantastic she is and how evil the Democrat is.
> 
> Objectivity is an important and worthwhile life skill that is extremely difficult to achieve.


I've never once claimed Trump was fantastic, or even that he is good. I've only stated that he is a better choice than a corrupt Hillary and more failed Democrat rule.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Incorrect and you've deliberately mis-interpreted Hillary's "deplorables" comment, you Republican hack.
> 
> Both sides have a large ratio of individuals who mistrust people who don't share their point of view. Republicans do not distinguish themselves in this way. You're one of them. You appear to be someone who will believe anything negative about Hillary, regardless of how ridiculous it is.
> 
> As best I can tell, the mistrust phenomenon is about the same on both sides.


WTF? Her speech is on youtube-she specifically says "ABOUT HALF" of Trump supporters are racists or bigots-not only has Trump never said such a thing about Crooked Hillary supporters, no American politician has EVER labelled 25% of the USA population as garbage (not in a public speech). She let people have a peek behind the curtain, and it is an ugly sight back there.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Hillary just cancelled a high dollar private fundraiser for unknown reasons. Why would a healthy person do that?
> 
> I don't like Trump either, but nothing he has done or "might" do comes close to what Hillary has already done. In addition, Trump does not have a history of unexplained fainting spells, an uncontrollable cough, and a severe concussion that she may not have fully recovered from. He also doesn't need help to navigate a simple set of stairs, and doesn't need someone to come whisper in his ear when he freezes while making a speech.


So, bass player, have you ever contended with pneumonia while on the road?
I'm sure you recovered just fine if so, but did you need more than two days?

How about when you're near 70 & on the road, would you need more than two days to recover from pneumonia?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> To a certain extent, but to keep it in context-that polling "expert" Nate Silver gave Trump a 3% chance of victory a month ago-now he has it at 48%-Trump hasn't changed anything over the last 30 days-Crooked Hillary's campaign is literally falling apart-that is the difference.


BS. It was never down to 3%.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

And dehydration, don't forget dehydration. She is a martyr to it, and has has regular attacks of dehydration over the last 10 years. If only they could find a cure.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> So, bass player, have you ever contended with pneumonia while on the road?
> I'm sure you recovered just fine if so, but did you need more than two days?
> 
> How about when you're near 70 & on the road, would you need more than two days to recover from pneumonia?


More like near 70, with a cracked head that required 6 months of medical treatment and was used as the excuse for mishandling classified info (according to the FBI-I guess you think they are lying about that one). No need to even discuss why the criminal cracked her skull.


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> BS. It was never down to 3%.


Yeah. I saw it at 17% probability for Trump, back when he was trying to bully families war veterans. lmao!


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> No need to even discuss why the criminal cracked her skull.


I heard she injured herself in an incident during an operation with Barack Obama while creating ISIS.

Nelley, do you wear clown makeup in daily life?


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> So, bass player, have you ever contended with pneumonia while on the road?
> I'm sure you recovered just fine if so, but did you need more than two days?
> 
> How about when you're near 70 & on the road, would you need more than two days to recover from pneumonia?


I've never had pneumonia, but I have played gigs with a severe flu (throwing up between sets), and the day after surgery for a torn Achilles tendon, and 2 days after surgery for a torn ACL/MCL, and miniscus.

By the way, Hillary's pneumonia diagnosis was 12 days ago, not 2 days...


----------



## mrPPincer

> By the way, Hillary's pneumonia diagnosis was 12 days ago, not 2 days...


You're right, but she was back in the mix two days after her diagnosis.. one can't keep that up indefinitely.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> I've never had pneumonia, but I have played gigs with a severe flu (throwing up between sets), and the day after surgery for a torn Achilles tendon, and 2 days after surgery for a torn ACL/MCL, and miniscus.


What does any of that have to do with fluid in the lungs?

People die of pneumonia in 3rd world countries, all the time. My sister in law's parents both died of pneumonia in Colombia within the last 15 years. One of my wife's grandparents died of pneumonia (also a resident of a South American country).

Pneumonia is a serious condition. Even here, people sometimes die of pneumonia.

The next I'm at my mechanic, I'll tell him that I've changed a flat before so I know that charging me $1800 to remove and replace a transaxle is way out of line.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I heard she injured herself in an incident during an operation with Barack Obama while creating ISIS.
> 
> Nelley, do you wear clown makeup in daily life?


The criminal was ducking sniper fire-it happens to Crooked Hillary on a daily basis.


----------



## olivaw

Sorry to distract from bass and Nelley's incessant yammering about the next president's health but Stephen Hawkins and 375 other scientists have criticized another bad Trump position.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> What does any of that have to do with fluid in the lungs?
> 
> People die of pneumonia in 3rd world countries, all the time. My sister in law's parents both died of pneumonia in Colombia within the last 15 years. One of my wife's grandparents died of pneumonia (also a resident of a South American country).
> 
> Pneumonia is a serious condition. Even here, people sometimes die of pneumonia.
> 
> The next I'm at my mechanic, I'll tell him that I've changed a flat before so I know that charging me $1800 to remove and replace a transaxle is way out of line.


Parkinsons disease is also very serious-as is cracking your skull-especially in your 60s.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Sorry to distract from bass and Nelley's incessant yammering about the next president's health but Stephen Hawkins and 375 other scientists have criticized another bad Trump position.


STEPHEN HAWKINS!!!! You have convinced me with that wonderful appeal to authority-I support the sick demented criminal all the way now.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> I support the sick demented criminal all the way now.


Lol!


----------



## olivaw

Trump has promised to steal Iraq's oil. I wonder if any of his advisors mentioned that it was an international war crime? I wonder if Trump cares? He has demonstrated no respect for the US Constitution. Why would he care about international treaties?


----------



## TomB19

He will liberate the oil and the Iraqis will pay for it. lmao!


----------



## olivaw

The Daily Banter said it is the dumbest plan in history. I disagree. While Trump's plan is really dumb, it is probably not as dumb as Napolean's plan to invade Russia or New Coke. :kiwi-fruit:


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Trump has promised to steal Iraq's oil. I wonder if any of his advisors mentioned that it was an international war crime? I wonder if Trump cares? He has demonstrated no respect for the US Constitution. Why would he care about international treaties?


Of course, Hillary's crimes and attack on the constitution don't count.


----------



## TomB19

I don't recall Hillary taking a quill full of flaming arrows to the National Archives?


----------



## new dog

Neither candidate cares about the constitution, just like Obama and Bush don't or didn't care about it.


----------



## TomB19

I learned long ago that disregard for the constitution is Republican code for not doing what you want them to do. lol!


----------



## TomB19

It should be an interesting debate. I haven't heard Republicans mention that a Hillary win will be proof that she cheated.

I think Trump will do OK. I'm sure Hillary will do fine. I expect it will end with both sides declaring themselves victorious with little impact on undecided voters. It will be interesting to watch.


----------



## Nelley

If this crazy performance is a teaser for the debate it should be a laughfest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T8tMk-ZOx8


----------



## sags

Everything going on in the US today was predictable.

Social upheaval in many forms is the result of global inequity and lack of opportunity.

There is an old saying.........someone that wants for nothing........wants nothing.

In the reverse.......someone who has nothing........has nothing to lose.


----------



## new dog

Actually sags we can go one more step.

When people lose everything and there is nothing left to lose, then they lose it.

For some this is where we are now with the rioting going on in the states. Also people are losing it when it comes to the establishment candidates and why we had Sanders and still have Trump.

On another note I was talking to a US UPS pilot the other day about how we vote in Canada. I told him how we have voter cards, show ID and get our names crossed off a list. He laughed and told me about the joke their system is down there and joked about how maybe he should move up here.


----------



## sags

A few years ago I was sitting in a criminal courtroom. I was there providing a ride for a friend of my son who had gotten himself in a tiny bit of trouble.

While waiting for his case to be heard, the police marched a young man in from the door that leads to the prison cells.

While he stood shackled and standing in front of the judge waiting for sentencing....the Crown attorney started in on his "send a message to society" routine.

The young man was charged with stealing a chicken from a grocery store..........theft under $5000. The Crown were asking for prison time.

The judge took off his glasses, looked at the Crown and said, I am not sending this young man to jail for stealing a chicken to feed his family.

He sentenced the guy to probation and ordered the Crown to help him get connected to a food bank and a social worker.

In the US, the guy probably would have ended up in prison, especially if he was poor and black. 

If it was his "third strike" he may end up sentenced to life in prison under mandatory sentencing laws. 

In prison, he may be forced to get involved in a prison gang and commit a more onerous crime.

And so it goes...........deeper and deeper into the abyss they fall.

The people rioting in the US, have reached the depths of despair and have grown weary of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" lectures.

That is hard to do if you don't have any boots.

Trump is a manifestation of anger with the system.

The US is so far behind the rest of the world in so many ways.

Lousy minimum wage laws. Poor worker protection. Lack of health care. Racial discrimination. Poor educational results.

Their "every man for himself" system has failed. They just aren't ready to admit it yet.


----------



## new dog

Everyone also likes to blame Obama for his lousy Obamacare and I also had thought the same way. But when I talk to democrats from the US they tell me the system was destroyed by making concessions to congress so it would pass. The only thing Obama should have done in this case was to not put it through after congress had screwed it up.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> Everyone also likes to blame Obama for his lousy Obamacare and I also had thought the same way. But when I talk to democrats from the US they tell me the system was destroyed by making concessions to congress so it would pass. The only thing Obama should have done in this case was to not put it through after congress had screwed it up.


So, the Democrats ram through some poor legislation, but it's not their fault. How come that in the Democrat mind, nothing is ever their fault, even the things they are 100% responsible for??


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Everything going on in the US today was predictable.
> 
> Social upheaval in many forms is the result of global inequity and lack of opportunity.
> 
> There is an old saying.........someone that wants for nothing........wants nothing.
> 
> In the reverse.......someone who has nothing........has nothing to lose.


What is also predictable is the Democrat and the media's response.

A black cop protecting a black neighborhood has to shoot a black man with a gun. Then, the Black Lies Matter racist thugs beat up innocent people, throw rocks from overpasses causing accidents, and steal from hard working businesses day after day. And, no matter how many racist beatings they commit, no matter how many cop cars they light on fire, the media insists on calling them "protestors"...as if they are non-violent, sign carrying people with a valid message.

Obama and Hillary fully support these actions. And, then some people still wonder why Trump is gaining/in the lead?


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> What is also predictable is the Democrat and the media's response.
> 
> A black cop protecting a black neighborhood has to shoot a black man with a gun. Then, the Black Lies Matter racist thugs beat up innocent people, throw rocks from overpasses causing accidents, and steal from hard working businesses day after day. And, no matter how many racist beatings they commit, no matter how many cop cars they light on fire, the media insists on calling them "protestors"...as if they are non-violent, sign carrying people with a valid message.
> 
> Obama and Hillary fully support these actions. And, then some people still wonder why Trump is gaining/in the lead?


What is interesting is the overt racism of the MSM/Obama/Hillary response-a relatively small MINORITY of the black population of Charlotte is doing all this garbage-everybody else has to get up and go to work-yet according to the MSM these thugs are Martin Luther King reborn. Jeez.


----------



## new dog

I agree with the above comment of bass. I also agree that democrats never seem to admit fault in anything they do. However as I pointed out congress had a heavy hand as well in Obama care so Obama is not 100 percent at fault although I still think he is a bad president.

This is one thing that I do, is if someone gives me a good enough argument, I am not afraid to admit I am wrong or see a need to alter my view.


----------



## olivaw

For Bass Player .....






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiUEVLRRPvw

(To be fair to the Trump campaign, she did resign as Ohio campaign chair after this went viral)


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> So, the Democrats ram through some poor legislation, but it's not their fault. How come that in the Democrat mind, nothing is ever their fault, even the things they are 100% responsible for??


Ahhh..... Republican amnesia.

They did the best they could. Republicans wanted nothing to do with it. Democrats had make all sorts of deals and compromises to get it.

At the time, it was thought to be better than nothing. For most Americans, this is still the case.


----------



## bass player

^^

Gee olivaw...she told people to take responsibility for how they live. How terrible!!!

What about my comment #1544??


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Ahhh..... Republican amnesia.
> 
> They did the best they could. Republicans wanted nothing to do with it. Democrats had make all sorts of deals and compromises to get it.
> 
> At the time, it was thought to be better than nothing. For most Americans, this is still the case.


You missed the point. No one forced the Democrats to pass bad legislation. If they didn't like the recommended changes, they could have withdrawn the bill.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Ahhh..... Republican amnesia.
> 
> They did the best they could. Republicans wanted nothing to do with it. Democrats had make all sorts of deals and compromises to get it.
> 
> At the time, it was thought to be better than nothing. For most Americans, this is still the case.


Oh brother-everybody agrees at this point that Obamacare is a total disaster-the thing was a shell game from the start-do nothing about ridiculous medical costs-simply shift the burden to stupid young healthy people-and tax them if they realize the scam-they overestimated the stupidity of the sheep-the young are saying no thanks-I will take the tax-so the whole scam is imploding.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Oh brother-everybody agrees at this point that Obamacare is a total disaster...


No. Everyone does not agree.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> ^^
> 
> Gee olivaw...she told people to take responsibility for how they live. How terrible!!!
> 
> What about my comment #1544??


She'd love your comment #1544. Paste it to the you-tube comments section.


----------



## Nelley

Nelley said:


> If this crazy performance is a teaser for the debate it should be a laughfest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T8tMk-ZOx8


Scott Adams of Dilbert fame says this video is Hillary jumping the shark-he says it is over now, just a question of how bad she loses


----------



## sags

Hillary jumped the shark and Trump fell into the pool......and is telling the shark he will make his life great again.


----------



## TomB19

I'm looking forward to the debates. It will be interesting to see how they both do.


----------



## new dog

This is also a dilemma for the mainstream media. The media even though they want Hillary to win must also want this debate to happen really bad.


----------



## olivaw

The moderator of the first debate is a registered Republican.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The moderator of the first debate is a registered Republican.


What does he do/say if Crooked Hillary has a breakdown? (assuming she shows up at all).


----------



## TomB19

new dog said:


> The media even though they want Hillary to win must also want this debate to happen really bad.


I share your point of view with regard to the Hillary bias. Fox is the only media stumping for Trump.


----------



## olivaw

Is Nelley being paid to post? 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...re-secretly-funding-trump-s-meme-machine.html



> A Silicon Valley titan is putting money behind an unofficial Donald Trump group dedicated to “shitposting” and circulating internet memes maligning Hillary Clinton.


Probably not. No money for spreading American excrement on a Canadian site. :rolleyes2:


----------



## sags

_To those of you who received awards, honours and distinctions..............I say well done.

And to those of you who are C students, I say...............you too can be President of the United States.

George W. Bush_

Donald Trump could actually win...........although GW apparently doesn't think Trump rises to the C student level.


----------



## sags

Hi, I am Donald Trump and I am great.

I can make you great too. 

All you have to do is send me a cheque for $35,000 USD and you will get a pamphlet on how to become a real estate tycoon.

Those lucky ones who register early will receive a picture of you standing beside a 6 foot cardboard cutout of me.


----------



## olivaw

*Trump University Alumni *


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Scott Adams of Dilbert fame says this video is Hillary jumping the shark-he says it is over now, just a question of how bad she loses


Between Scott Adams and Scott Baio, I don't see how Trump can lose.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Between Scott Adams and Scott Baio, I don't see how Trump can lose.


Topical.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> _To those of you who received awards, honours and distinctions..............I say well done.
> 
> And to those of you who are C students, I say...............you too can be President of the United States.
> 
> George W. Bush_
> 
> Donald Trump could actually win...........although GW apparently doesn't think Trump rises to the C student level.



Bush was the president in title only. He had others making his decisions for him, whether they were good or bad.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Is Nelley being paid to post?
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...re-secretly-funding-trump-s-meme-machine.html
> 
> Probably not. No money for spreading American excrement on a Canadian site. :rolleyes2:


Elvis pays me-he is a big Trump fan-shouldn't you be out hunting Bigfoot?


----------



## olivaw

Well I'm convinced. Trump is da man. How do I change my vote on dogcom's poll. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfnJt174GHs


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Well I'm convinced. Trump is da man. How do I change my vote on dogcom's poll.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfnJt174GHs


The wild thing is your fearless leader-Crooked Hillary-just put out a video just like that one-"WHY AREN"T I UP 50 POINTS!!!!!!"-Crooked Hillary and your whackjob could do Vegas together as a lounge act.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> _To those of you who received awards, honours and distinctions..............I say well done.
> 
> And to those of you who are C students, I say...............you too can be President of the United States.
> 
> George W. Bush_
> 
> Donald Trump could actually win...........although GW apparently doesn't think Trump rises to the C student level.


Yeah, Bush only made C's...at both Harvard and Yale.

What were Obama's grades? Oh, that's right...his records are still sealed. Why is that? We kept being told how smart he is, yet he has yet to prove that. When he is forced to go off script in his speeches he comes across like a bumbling fool.

Why are his grades sealed?


----------



## mrPPincer

> When he is forced to go off script in his speeches he comes across like a bumbling fool.


That's absurd, I've never seen that, can you provide even one single example?

His immediate predecessor, on the other hand, couldn't even open his mouth without coming across like a bumbling fool, which he clearly was; Iraq ring any bells anybody?


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> That's absurd, I've never seen that, can you provide even one single example?
> 
> His immediate predecessor, on the other hand, couldn't even open his mouth without coming across like a bumbling fool, which he clearly was; Iraq ring any bells anybody?


Here's one...and there are plenty of others:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDv-hs5unI


----------



## mrPPincer

Ok, he stuttered, for a second, but his ad lib was fine, the vid keeps replaying his stutter.


----------



## mrPPincer

^I watched a few more of them on youtube, looks like they're mostly just from being overtired on the road & forgot which town he was in or similar, no big deal.


----------



## olivaw

The Cincinnati Enquirer has endorsed the Republican nominee for President for close to a century.

This year they *endorsed* Hillary Clinton for President.

I guess they finally decided to show their true terrorist-loving, bleeding-heart, pinko-commie, politically-correct selves.


----------



## indexxx

olivaw said:


> Topical.


-Or "Tropical!"


----------



## sags

Ted Cruz has decided that Donald Trump's lack of principles and his mocking of Cruz's wife and father......aren't that important after all.

Another Republican willingly sheds his principles to curry favor with Trump.

I have a new level of respect for the Bush family, Mitt Romney, John McCain and others who stand on their principles.

I think it speaks a lot to their character.


----------



## new dog

Maybe Trump explained to Ted Cruz what he was really doing and what his strategy was.

To get to be the party nominee and then to be president you have to basically play it like you are on the TV show Survivor. In order not to get voted off the island you need to cheat and lie your way to the top. You may not be this way in real life but in order to stay alive in Survivor or become the president then this is what you do.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Ted Cruz has decided that Donald Trump's lack of principles and his mocking of Cruz's wife and father......aren't that important after all.
> 
> Another Republican willingly sheds his principles to curry favor with Trump.
> 
> I have a new level of respect for the Bush family, Mitt Romney, John McCain and others who stand on their principles.
> 
> I think it speaks a lot to their character.


What does is say about the character of those who support a corrupt Hillary? They know she is corrupt, yet not a single Democrat has spoken up in favour of anyone else, and not a single one has dared to question her ethics or suitability.


----------



## sags

Cruz has now vigorously argued the overwhelming merits of both sides of joining or rebuking Trump.

It shows the Ted Cruz's principles don't have deep roots and bend with the wind to the point they are facing the other direction.


----------



## sags

Hillary Clinton's record of public service for her entire life is public knowledge.

"Crooked" is a term coined by those who hate her diligence, dedication and success at solving problems for others......such as healthcare.

There is no basis or foundation for the charge, and none offered by those who levy it.

The "sheep" are those who believe what they are told by Clinton enemies, over the open public record.

When the Clintons left the White House, they were not only dead broke but owed a lot of debt.

They had to borrow money to buy a home, because they had nowhere to live.

One would think the "crooked" Clintons wouldn't have to deal with such mundane problems. 

They could have just spend some cash from the hoard of money gained from their "crooked" activities.

They could.............if they had any,..... which they didn't..... because it didn't exist.

Compare Clinton's public record to Trump's public record and you will see where the term "crooked" truly applies.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

In 1992 the Clintons stated they had a net worth of approximately $700,000.

When the Clintons left the White House they took with them $200,000 worth of furniture, silverware and linens some of which they were forced to return. Under the Former Presidents Act of 1958 Bill got a substantial pension, $203,000 a year plus perks. So they weren't completely penniless.

Why Hillary would say they were broke, I don't know.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> They had to borrow money to buy a home, because they had nowhere to live.
> 
> One would think the "crooked" Clintons wouldn't have to deal with such mundane problems.
> 
> They could have just spend some cash from the hoard of money gained from their "crooked" activities.


Maybe she spent all their money starting ISIS?

lol!


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Here's one...and there are plenty of others:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDv-hs5unI


Nonsense to say that Obama can't speak extemporaneously. Have you seen him give interviews? I can understand being flustered when you lose the speech you intended to give through a teleprompter and then have to switch to memory. I think it's a huge waste of a very important person's time to try to memorize these speeches.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Why Hillary would say they were broke, I don't know.


She lies even when she doesn't have to. If she said the sky was blue, I'd look outside before believing her.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Maybe she spent all their money starting ISIS?
> 
> lol!


Sure, that's it. Thanks for clearing that up.

It's always easier for some people to simply dismiss any and all claims about the Clinton's rather than face the realities.


----------



## TomB19

Broke is relative.

It's not that unreasonable for a couple of two Harvard lawyers, one of whom has been president, to consider themselves broke if they need to draw a mortgage to purchase a home.

If Warren Buffett's net worth was $10M, we'd all call him broke.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Broke is relative.
> 
> It's not that unreasonable for a couple of two Harvard lawyers, one of whom has been president, to consider themselves broke if they need to draw a mortgage to purchase a home.
> 
> If Warren Buffett's net worth was $10M, we'd all call him broke.


Please explain why the Clinton's definition of "broke" gives them the right to steal furniture?


----------



## TomB19

I'll take a shot at explaining reality to you if you'll explain to me why I would respond to someone who can't think beyond parroting disproven right wing lies into a forum.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> Broke is relative.
> 
> It's not that unreasonable for a couple of two Harvard lawyers, one of whom has been president, to consider themselves broke if they need to draw a mortgage to purchase a home.
> 
> If Warren Buffett's net worth was $10M, we'd all call him broke.


Everybody takes out a mortgage to buy a home.


----------



## humble_pie

from my vantage point in the middle - where else would i be - i think we have to award interim gold stars in this debate to:

- Rusty, for having the most interesting & the most fully-developed commentaries on donald trump;

- olivaw, for consistently producing impeccably supported research;

- TomB, for a deliciously killer sense of humour.

sags would receive a blue or red star for his always civilzed points of view while bass player & nelley would get special awards as the much-needed counterpoint zanies.

.


----------



## TomB19

new dog said:


> Bush was the president in title only. He had others making his decisions for him, whether they were good or bad.


Whereas Trump will put Mike Pence in charge of domestic and foreign affairs. The only question will be: who will be the heimlich minister standing by when Trump eats a cookie?

I nominate Chris Christie. That guy could heimlich the heartwood out of a sequoia.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> ...bass player & nelley would get special awards as the much-needed counterpoint zanies..


I enjoy a good debate. bass player and Nelly are doing a great job of keeping the Republican zealot viewpoint afloat in an ocean of reasonableness. Kudos to each of them.

I'm not positive they are serious. Either way, they are both highly entertaining. I hope they are enjoying the convo as much as I am.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> I enjoy a good debate.


I heard a rumour (just a rumour) that Hillary Clinton will counter Republican attacks on her health by doing 100 jumping jacks during the debate.


----------



## TomB19

Hillary should gift Donald Trump a pair of gloves with fingers that look like AA batteries.


----------



## bass player

I expect the debate will get big ratings...people will be tuning in to see if Hillary freezes, collapses again, or gets caught in another lie. Others will tune in to see if Trump will say something stupid again.

Hillary has invited rabid Trump hater and massive egomaniac and all-around jerk Mark Cuban to sit in the front row. Trump should invite Juanita Broaddrick and Paula Jones to sit in the front row to remind people of how her husband really treats women. Or maybe he can question her on why her #1 aide married a person who sends criminally inappropriate texts to minor children.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Hillary should gift Donald Trump a pair of gloves with fingers that look like AA batteries.



hmmmn is there something a little bit kinky here that i'm missing ...


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> That guy could heimlich the heartwood out of a sequoia.



Tom i was reading the thread from the bottom to the top so came to this wonderful sentence before i could see the name. But i said to myself That absolutely Has to be TomB ...

did you make the sentence up? the metaphor is an instant classic. Let us never forget it. A body can "heimlich the heartwood out of a sequoia."

.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> hmmmn is there something a little bit kinky here that i'm missing ...


Trump has small fingers. It was brought up during the primaries, as a potential indicator of his manhood. Trump maintains his penis is large and absolutely fantastic but I doubt Anthony Weiner would be impressed.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> ... maybe he can question her on why her #1 aide married a person who sends criminally inappropriate texts to minor children.


Sure. ... and now that guilty by association is in play, she should ask him why he is friendly with a guy who annexed a piece of Ukraine. Trump should be tried as a war criminal for that.


----------



## bass player

The guidelines for the debate have been released. It will be 90 minutes with no breaks, and both Hillary and Trump must stand for the entire 90 minutes. There will be no bathroom or coughing breaks. Hillary's campaign requested a step stool so she could appear closer to Trump's height, but they were turned down. However, they are allowed to build her a custom podium, so they may sneak a few inches in there.

Can Hillary stand upright for 90 minutes and not succumb to an uncontrollable coughing fit?? We shall soon see...


----------



## new dog

Ok just like sports let us find out what you guys think Trump and then Hillary need to do to win the debate.

For Hillary:

1. She needs to show she is strong and healthy enough

2. She should accuse, poke and pester Trump as much as possible to get him off his game. He is prone to getting angry and then saying something stupid and going off on a rant.

3. Policy should be easier for her I would think. So she should probably stick to her script here.

4. Handling the scam and crooked talk whether real or not.

For Trump:

1. He needs to stay cool and that will be difficult for him to do.

2. On policy he needs to explain and show what he plans is possible even if it is BS.

3. He needs to reach out to minorities and explain how a new America will be good for them.

4. Dial back the crazy that was needed to get him through the Republican nomination race.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Sure. ... and now that guilty by association is in play, she should ask him why he is friendly with a guy who annexed a piece of Ukraine. Trump should be tried as a war criminal for that.


You are deflecting in an attempt to ignore the terrible judgment that both women exhibit with the most important person in their lives.

Trump made a couple comments that were jus that...comments. I highly doubt that he is friends with Putin...that's just a left wing conspiracy. But, speaking of Russia, let's talk about Hillary and selling US uranium to them.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> Ok just like sports let us find out what you guys think Trump and then Hillary need to do to win the debate.
> 
> For Hillary:
> 
> 1. She needs to show she is strong and healthy enough
> 
> 2. She should accuse, poke and pester Trump as much as possible to get him off his game. He is prone to getting angry and then saying something stupid and going off on a rant.
> 
> 3. Policy should be easier for her I would think. So she should probably stick to her script here.
> 
> 4. Handling the scam and crooked talk whether real or not.
> 
> For Trump:
> 
> 1. He needs to stay cool and that will be difficult for him to do.
> 
> 2. On policy he needs to explain and show what he plans is possible even if it is BS.
> 
> 3. He needs to reach out to minorities and explain how a new America will be good for them.
> 
> 4. Dial back the crazy that was needed to get him through the Republican nomination race.


IMO Crooked Hillary made a big mistake letting the crazy/obsessed side out with that "WHY AREN"T I WINNING?" video-she should try to appear more intelligent, relaxed like in the Ferns skit. If she gets rattled, Trump will mop the floor with her because contrary to MSM opinion, Trump is never really rattled-he says either what he thinks or what might get a big response. Trump should calmly explain to the public why this career criminal is unfit to even be a candidate, much less POTUS.


----------



## james4beach

I though this was funny (audio, interview from CBC radio)

Doonesbury cartoonist says not drawing Trump would be 'comedy malpractice'


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> IMO Crooked Hillary made a big mistake letting the crazy/obsessed side out with that "WHY AREN"T I WINNING?" video-she should try to appear more intelligent, relaxed like in the Ferns skit. If she gets rattled, Trump will mop the floor with her because contrary to MSM opinion, Trump is never really rattled-he says either what he thinks or what might get a big response. Trump should calmly explain to the public why this career criminal is unfit to even be a candidate, much less POTUS.


I agree. Trump is sharper on his feet and won't get rattled. Hillary's "why am I not up by 50 points" screaming rant should terrify anyone who supports her knowing she'll be left alone for 90 minutes with no handlers to whisk her away when she shows discomfort, and without Big Black Dude standing nearby to whisper in her ear to reassure her.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Trump has small fingers. It was brought up during the primaries, as a potential indicator of his manhood. Trump maintains his penis is large and absolutely fantastic but I doubt Anthony Weiner would be impressed.



ah, didn't know, i'm just a poor crumb who doesn't hang in youtube gossip videos


----------



## sags

It is estimated that 100 million Americans will watch the debate live, and another 100 million will watch snippets or follow the social media commentary.

The Superbowl draws about 130 million viewers worldwide.

I will grant the Clinton naysayers this.......if Hillary Clinton collapses on the stage, the election is over and Trump will win.

Other than that happening, I expect Clinton will be declared the winner when the dust settles.


----------



## Nelley

The reality is that if Crooked Hillary shows up and actually survives 90 minutes without a major brain freeze or breakdown the MSM will label it her victory. The question is: has her condition deteriorated so badly that she cannot even do 90 minutes straight of relative sanity at this point?


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> It is estimated that 100 million Americans will watch the debate live, and another 100 million will watch snippets or follow the social media commentary.
> 
> The Superbowl draws about 130 million viewers worldwide.
> 
> I will grant the Clinton naysayers this.......if Hillary Clinton collapses on the stage, the election is over and Trump will win.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other than that happening, I expect Clinton will be declared the winner when the dust settles.


We agree-the wild thing is that we both think it quite likely that a leading candidate for POTUS cannot even survive a scheduled 90 minute event without a collapse/breakdown-wow.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> It is estimated that 100 million Americans will watch the debate live, and another 100 million will watch snippets or follow the social media commentary.
> 
> The Superbowl draws about 130 million viewers worldwide.
> 
> I will grant the Clinton naysayers this.......if Hillary Clinton collapses on the stage, the election is over and Trump will win.
> 
> Other than that happening, I expect Clinton will be declared the winner when the dust settles.


I agree it's over if she collapses, but people will also be watching for other signs...the head bobs, crossed eyes, suddenly freezing in place, etc. Her health is in question for good reason...people realize they were lied to after the 911 service when the story changed several times. She must appear 100% healthy the entire time to dispel any worries.


----------



## sags

Cringe moments in past debates are entertaining in retrospect.

Reagan's comments of not using Mondale's youth and lack of experience against him.......even made Mondale laugh.

Al Gore stalking George Bush....and Bush turning to look at him, not saying a word and continuing........made Gore look foolish.

And the king of them all.....the VP debate comment.....I knew JFK and you sir are no JFK......drove a stake in Dan Quayle's ego.

The zingers that might fly in this debate..........oh, the anticipation is overwhelming.

Monday..........9 p.m. on CNN.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> We agree-the wild thing is that we both think it quite likely that a leading candidate for POTUS cannot even survive a scheduled 90 minute event without a collapse/breakdown-wow.


Worse case scenario...a major breaking news event delays the debate for an hour and all the drugs that they pumped in to her timed perfectly to last for the debate wear off too early


----------



## sags

I am 66 and I don't think I could do a 90 minute debate standing up.

I would probably do 30 minutes and then tell the crowd " I think I will go lay down now, call me if Trump says anything coherent".

Mark Cuban, the anti-Trump billionaire crusader will be sitting front row center.

Conspiracy theorists have it that Cuban is taking a rolled up plastic funnel, so he can blow Trump's hair up and down on command.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> I agree it's over if she collapses, but people will also be watching for other signs...the head bobs, crossed eyes, suddenly freezing in place, etc. Her health is in question for good reason...people realize they were lied to after the 911 service when the story changed several times. She must appear 100% healthy the entire time to dispel any worries.


Good points-definitely the only debate I've seen where one candidate has to prove her neurological health to the audience.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Worse case scenario...a major breaking news event delays the debate for an hour and all the drugs that they pumped in to her timed perfectly to last for the debate wear off too early


They better fine tune their dosages-I assume they realize that "Why aren't I up by 50 points" dose might not be the winning ticket.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> I agree it's over if she collapses, but people will also be watching for other signs...the head bobs, *crossed eyes*, suddenly freezing in place, etc. Her health is in question for good reason...people realize they were lied to after the 911 service when the story changed several times. She must appear 100% healthy the entire time to dispel any worries.


I will notice the crossed eyes. Even though I try my best I can't help but notice crossed eyes. I can't stop myself from looking at the crossed eyes. It is like time stands still and nothing else in the universe exists.

One lazy eye is even worse for me. I always follow it around and forget what I was saying.

I used to have a lazy eye, so I was always cognizant of the possibility of it crossing into the other eye's hemisphere.

Cataract surgery fixed it.......so thank goodness for Ontario's health care system.

I know I need political correctness counselling in this regard, and shall seek it out soon.

Is the political incorrectness that I notice the crossed eyes or admit to doing so ?


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> I will notice the crossed eyes. Even though I try my best I can't help but notice crossed eyes. I can't stop myself from looking at the eyes.
> 
> I know I need political correctness counselling in this regard, and shall seek it out soon.


Welcome to the dark side Sags-it sounds like you are thinking of choosing the red pill.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Ok just like sports let us find out what you guys think Trump and then Hillary need to do to win the debate.
> 
> For Hillary:
> 
> 1. She needs to show she is strong and healthy enough
> 
> 2. She should accuse, poke and pester Trump as much as possible to get him off his game. He is prone to getting angry and then saying something stupid and going off on a rant.
> 
> 3. Policy should be easier for her I would think. So she should probably stick to her script here.
> 
> 4. Handling the scam and crooked talk whether real or not.
> 
> For Trump:
> 
> 1. He needs to stay cool and that will be difficult for him to do.
> 
> 2. On policy he needs to explain and show what he plans is possible even if it is BS.
> 
> 3. He needs to reach out to minorities and explain how a new America will be good for them.
> 
> 4. Dial back the crazy that was needed to get him through the Republican nomination race.


I think this is a good summary dogcom. 

Trump won't be angered by Clinton. He'd be angered by the moderator or a third party. He doesn't get angry _during_ debates. He gets angry in the wee hours after he has stewed. I imagine there will be an all-night vigil of campaign staff to prevent him from tweeting his displeasure.  

I doubt very much we will see the free-wheeling type of slugfest that we saw during the Republican Primaries. I noticed during the primaries that Trump would insult men directly to their faces but would insult women behind their back. (He talked about Carly Fiorina's face to a reporter but said she was beautiful during the debate.)

Personally, I think that Trump needs to keep it cool and Clinton needs to bring a little of the fire she brought to the Republican Benghazi hearings. 

------

A lot of people are saying that Trump will distribute nude pictures of his third wife after the debate. (And by a lot of people, I mean nobody)


----------



## new dog

Thanks Olivaw, after the debate we will have to debate who we think is the winner here.

The mainstream media has probably already declared Hillary the winner by a landslide as long as she shows up.

Zero hedge and Alex Jones will give the land slide victory to Trump starting today as long as he shows up.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> [re russia] Trump made a couple comments that were jus that...comments. I highly doubt that he is friends with Putin...that's just a left wing conspiracy.



but have you explained all this to the donald yet
it's a 180 degree reversal of policy

just upthread we had three 4-star US generals plus one admiral all praising trump's chumminess with moscow ...


----------



## olivaw

dogcom, Do you think the media has awarded it to Clinton? Most media organizations are reporting that Clinton is an experienced debator but I wonder if that is the opposite of what she needs. Candidates seem to prefer low expectations.

The only thing I know for sure is that Trump will declare himself the winner approximately 12 seconds into his first post debate interview 

As an aside, Trump invited Gennifer Flowers to the debate. She's the "other woman" from the 80s who spent a couple of decades trying to turn her sexual tryst with Bill Clinton into fame and profit. (reported by Guardian, NY Post etc.)


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> Yeah, Bush only made C's...at both Harvard and Yale.


Curious if anyone knows whether Dubya got in to those schools based on his own previous academic performance and hard work or if it was connections. I do not know so I am asking.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Trump has small fingers. "

Maybe that means he will steal less. If I was hiring a cashier for an ice cream stand I would look for a one armed man with diabetes.


----------



## bass player

indexxx said:


> Curious if anyone knows whether Dubya got in to those schools based on his own previous academic performance and hard work or if it was connections. I do not know so I am asking.


Sure you care, lol. 

I brought up that Obama's college records are secret and your response is progressive deflection tactic #1: Change the subject and make it about the other guy.

Now, since I reminded you about Obama's secret records, you can use progressive tactic #2: Call me racist.


----------



## olivaw

Obama isn't running. His college transcripts are irrelevant. 

Trump is running. Nobody asked for his college transcripts. Everybody asked for his tax returns. Where are they?


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Obama isn't running. His college transcripts are irrelevant.
> 
> Trump is running. Nobody asked for his college transcripts. Everybody asked for his tax returns. Trump made up excuses.


Hillary is running. People deserve to see the results of an independent neurological examination. Hillary's and her handlers broke secret service protocol by not going to the ER after her 911 collapse. Why would she do that unless she had something to hide??


----------



## sags

Obama earned a degree in political science from Columbia University, worked as a community organizer and then realized he needed a law degree to get things done.

He entered Harvard Law School and graduated with magna cum laude honours and was President of the Harvard Law Review.

He later taught constitutional law at Harvard as adjunct professor.

Michelle Obama graduated from Princeton and Harvard.

Say what you want about the Obama's............except that they aren't both very well educated.

Neither Barrack or Michelle Obama came from wealthy families who paved the way for their entrance to Ivy League schools.

They both gained entrance on the merits of their previous studies.

Hillary Clinton's educational background is well documented, and she was the class valedictorian.

Donald Trump graduated from the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania with the undergraduate degree of Bachelor of Science in Economics.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Hillary is running. People deserve to see the results of an independent neurological examination. Hillary's and her handlers broke secret service protocol by not going to the ER after her 911 collapse. Why would she do that unless she had something to hide??


You are using regressive deflection tactic #1 to distract from Trump's missing tax returns. Why won't he release them?


----------



## s123

sags said:


> Obama earned a degree in political science from Columbia University, worked as a community organizer and then realized he needed a law degree to get things done.
> 
> He entered Harvard Law School and graduated with magna cum laude honours and was President of the Harvard Law Review.
> 
> He later taught constitutional law at Harvard as adjunct professor.
> 
> Michelle Obama graduated from Princeton and Harvard.
> 
> Say what you want about the Obama's............except that they aren't both very well educated.
> 
> Neither Barrack or Michelle Obama came from wealthy families who paved the way for their entrance to Ivy League schools.
> 
> They both gained entrance on the merits of their previous studies.
> 
> Hillary Clinton's educational background is well documented, and she was the class valedictorian.
> 
> Donald Trump graduated from the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania with the undergraduate degree of Bachelor of Science in Economics.



The American middle class is complaining because of this.

- There are now more middle-income families — with less of the country’s wealth:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/americas-middle-class-has-lost-nearly-30-of-wealth-2015-12-09

However, the share of income held by middle-income families has plunged to 43% of households in 2015 versus 62% in 1971; lower-income households have remained stable (at around 9% in 2015) while the share of income held by upper-income households has surged to 49% in 2015 from 29% in 1971.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> Sure you care, lol.
> 
> I brought up that Obama's college records are secret and your response is progressive deflection tactic #1: Change the subject and make it about the other guy.
> 
> Now, since I reminded you about Obama's secret records, you can use progressive tactic #2: Call me racist.


Excuse me, are you just here to troll and insult people? Nowhere in my post do I say anything about Barack Obama's records. I was not changing any subject here as my intent was not to respond to your post but to ask for information. I'll thank you not to attack me for no reason and to not put words in my mouth. I asked a legitimate question, that's all. I'm not interested in personally offending you- can you say that same after your post?


----------



## new dog

I don't even have to look up Obama's education to know he is a smart guy. Sags pointed out his education but Obama does look like someone who went to college. This doesn't mean I think he is a good president it is just that I never doubted he was well educated.

Both Hillary and Donald are smart people as well so I can put aside the are they smart enough questions. Bush however never did seem, act or look smart enough to me no matter where he was educated.


----------



## revoxis

*tasteslikechicken*

i dont want anyone to be honest no one deserve it


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Obama isn't running. His college transcripts are irrelevant.
> 
> Trump is running. Nobody asked for his college transcripts. Everybody asked for his tax returns. Where are they?


Trump paid about as much tax as Olivaw would have paid with his wealth and businesses-what is your point? It is not against the law to follow the tax code.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Trump paid about as much tax as Olivaw would have paid with his wealth and businesses...


How much is that? I don't see any attached images?


----------



## sags

History in the making on Monday night.

Clinton will be the first female Presidential nominee to participate in the debate.


----------



## sags

I wonder............is it also the first Presidential debate where both candidates are eligible to collect Social Security ?

Grey power..............takes over the world, one way or the other.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> History in the making on Monday night.
> 
> Clinton will be the first female Presidential nominee to participate in the debate.


Who cares if "history is in the making"?? Obama's election was also "historic" and he has been a total failure. The goal of the debate is to help people choose a candidate...it's not a platform to push affirmative action to make progressives feel good about themselves.


----------



## sags

The first Presidential debate where both Old Spice and Chanel Number 5 linger in the air.........and we can't tell who is wearing each.


----------



## sags

If every wrinkle tells a story, there will be enough of them on the stage to write a novel rivaling War and Peace.


----------



## sags

Sorry...........just gloating that we have JT............and they don't.


----------



## olivaw

I wonder if either of these senior citizens would be content with a single term. 

Cory Booker and Marco Rubio in 2020?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Sorry...........just gloating that we have JT............and they don't.


Perhaps you should wait until JT actually accomplishes something before gloating. So far all that has happened is that he has promised another tax to save the planet from a problem that may not even exist, and some of his staff have had to pay back moving expenses.

But, he's cute and has nice hair...and, apparently, that's good enough for some people.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> I wonder if either of these senior citizens would be content with a single term.
> 
> Cory Booker and Marco Rubio in 2020?


Always amusing to see a Social Justice Warrior let down his guard and let his inner bigot out for all to observe.


----------



## tygrus

I am officially calling trump, not because I support him, but mostly because of image. Look around the world - for a woman to be elected leader, she is usually tough as nails type like thatcher or merkel. Does Hillary fit that mold? She seems more grandmotherly in a pantsuit with the occasional fainting spell and a team of doctors and handlers. Mean while trump is downing the KFC looking healthy as an ox and tweeting down naysayers at all hours of the day. I think it will look even more evident in the debates when they are side by side. 

Thats not sexist, just reality. Above all people want a strong confident looking leader even if they have big negatives. Its mostly because the world is a nasty place and you need that kind of person in there. Many countries could not accept the president as a black man which is why obama got little respect around the world. I think hillary will garner the same treatment.


----------



## bass player

Obama gets no respect because he's a weak and ineffectual leader, a narcissist, a race baiter, and a known liar. His skin colour has nothing to do with it.


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> Perhaps you should wait until JT actually accomplishes something before gloating. So far all that has happened is that he has promised another tax to save the planet from a problem that may not even exist, and some of his staff have had to pay back moving expenses.
> 
> But, he's cute and has nice hair...and, apparently, that's good enough for some people.


Don't forget he also brought in a bunch refugees from Syria.


----------



## newbie3

Entertaining thread. I think Clinton will win.


----------



## olivaw

The Globe and Mail writes that Trump cannot lose the debate. If his supporters haven't been deterred by the revelation of illegal activity at the Trump Foundation, the hidden tax returns, the misogyny, the racism and the late night angry tweets they won't be deterred by anything that happens at the debates. His 40% is locked in. 

Clinton support, although higher, is less enthusiastic. It can be peeled away more easily. 

I disagree with the Globe but it's an interesting perspective.

My view of Clinton differs from that described by Tygrus above too. She's tough as nails but fails to convey her strength, personality and sense of humour to the camera. Maybe she'll find a way in the debates.

We'll all see something different at the debate because we will view it through the lens of our own bias.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The Globe and Mail writes that Trump cannot lose the debate. If his supporters haven't been deterred by the revelation of illegal activity at the Trump Foundation, the hidden tax returns, the misogyny, the racism and the late night angry tweets they won't be deterred by anything that happens at the debates. His 40% is locked in.
> 
> Clinton support, although higher, is less enthusiastic. It can be peeled away more easily.
> 
> I disagree with the Globe but it's an interesting perspective.
> 
> My view of Clinton differs from that described by Tygrus above too. She's tough as nails but fails to convey her strength, personality and sense of humour to the camera. Maybe she'll find a way in the debates.
> 
> We'll all see something different at the debate because we will view it through the lens of our own bias.


Crooked Hillary is a very strange person-that we can all agree on-her maniacal obsession with this particular job is almost surreal-she needs to win this election like a crack whore needs her fix.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Crooked Hillary is a very strange person-that we can all agree on-her maniacal obsession with this particular job is almost surreal-she needs to win this election like a crack whore needs her fix.


This is an example of the demographic that the Globe and Mail referred to. People who are so rabidly pro-Trump that they are immune to logic. They are not going to see anything but an outright Trump victory, no matter what happens in the debate. 

My disagreement with the Globe and Mail (and Scott Adams, for that matter) is that I still believe that the majority of Americans are a little more sophisticated than that. They'll be tuning in to learn something.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> This is an example of the demographic that the Globe and Mail referred to. People who are so rabidly pro-Trump that they are immune to logic. They are not going to see anything but an outright Trump victory, no matter what happens in the debate.
> 
> My disagreement with the Globe and Mail (and Scott Adams, for that matter) is that I still believe that the majority of Americans are a little more sophisticated than that. They'll be tuning in to learn something.


If you have EVER typed anything logical regarding this career criminal I missed it.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> This is an example of the demographic that the Globe and Mail referred to. People who are so rabidly pro-Trump that they are immune to logic. They are not going to see anything but an outright Trump victory, no matter what happens in the debate.
> 
> My disagreement with the Globe and Mail (and Scott Adams, for that matter) is that I still believe that the majority of Americans are a little more sophisticated than that.


The elitist attitude of the left is never far from the surface, as you have just shown. The left has always thought they are better and more sophisticated than the deplorables. They have an automatic disdain for all differing opinions, and are too full of themselves to grasp why so many good people find them insufferable.


----------



## new dog

The comment goes both ways and isn't limited to Trump. People who are left and support Dems will support any Dem leader without logic. Same goes for people on the right who support the Republican side without logic. So the Globe article is correct except they don't mention it cuts both ways.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> The comment goes both ways and isn't limited to Trump. People who are left and support Dems will support any Dem leader without logic. Same goes for people on the right who support the Republican side without logic. So the Globe article is correct except they don't mention it cuts both ways.


Trump has way more independent support-it isn't even close-if Trump is even a Republican he is Republican version 2.0


----------



## tygrus

olivaw said:


> My view of Clinton differs from that described by Tygrus above too. She's tough as nails but fails to convey her strength, personality and sense of humour to the camera.


Oh I agree totally. Behind the scenes she is probably a very cunning and astute politician, just from her experiences taking down people who posed a threat to her and her husbands dynasty. But that kind of shrewdness doesnt translate into a leadership strength. Trump may have done the same, bu it was in the business arena not politics. In business, anything goes.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> The comment goes both ways and isn't limited to Trump. People who are left and support Dems will support any Dem leader without logic. Same goes for people on the right who support the Republican side without logic. So the Globe article is correct except they don't mention it cuts both ways.


Sure, there are rabid supporters in both parties but the Globe article suggested that there is something unique about Trump's supporters. He believes that Trump's support is firmer than Clinton precisely because his supporters were more rabid (my word, not his). The title was: *Is there anything Trump can do or say in the debate to lose support?*. He argued 



> White voters without a college education are with Mr. Trump. And for many of them, nothing but nothing will change their mind.


and



> Yet despite, or perhaps because of, the many lies, insults, baseless accusations and racist policies and taunts, Mr. Trump has the support of more than four Americans in 10.
> 
> The simple fact is, so many have lost all confidence in those who investigate and report on his transgressions, especially such once-respected institutions as the Post, AP, the New York Times and any broadcaster other than Fox News, that their reports no longer have the power to influence events, or their opinion writers to change minds.
> 
> If so, then what does it matter how Mr. Trump performs in Monday’s debate? Trump voters discount evidence of wrongdoing that, in any previous election, would have sunk any candidate, Democrat or Republican. Gaffes and stumbles in a (rigged! they will say) debate won’t shake them.


My reading of this is that Ibbitson is arguing that 4 in 10 Americans
- refuse to listen to anything other than Fox News
- believe that the debate is rigged
- are unwilling or unable to recognize lies, insults, baseless accusations and racist policies and taunts. 

As I said, I found the opinion to be interesting but disagreed with the argument that 40% of American voters fit that mould. I acknowledged that there are certain Americans (and at least two Canadians on this forum) who do fit the mould.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Sure, there are rabid supporters in both parties but the Globe article suggested that there is something unique about Trump's supporters. He believes that Trump's support is firmer than Clinton precisely because his supporters were more rabid (my word, not his). The title was: *Is there anything Trump can do or say in the debate to lose support?*. He argued
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> My reading of this is that Ibbitson is arguing that 4 in 10 Americans
> - refuse to listen to anything other than Fox News
> - believe that the debate is rigged
> - are unwilling or unable to recognize lies, insults, baseless accusations and racist policies and taunts.
> 
> As I said, I found the opinion to be interesting but disagreed with the argument that 40% of American voters fit that mould. I acknowledged that there are certain Americans (and at least two Canadians on this forum) who do fit the mould.


SURE-Trump supporters are so stupid, Olivaw is a regular Tesla-whatever. If you are so smart, why don't you ever write anything even somewhat intelligent? Jeez.


----------



## olivaw

tygrus said:


> Oh I agree totally. Behind the scenes she is probably a very cunning and astute politician, just from her experiences taking down people who posed a threat to her and her husbands dynasty. But that kind of shrewdness doesnt translate into a leadership strength. Trump may have done the same, bu it was in the business arena not politics. In business, anything goes.


Do you think that Trump has more leadership strength than Clinton? 

I'm an admitted Clinton admirer and I tend to prefer her leadership style to Trump's. I do know Americans who feel differently - those who express admiration for Putin would certainly consider Trump to be the stronger leader.


----------



## tygrus

olivaw said:


> Do you think that Trump has more leadership strength than Clinton?
> 
> I'm an admitted Clinton admirer and I tend to prefer her leadership style to Trump's. I do know Americans who feel differently - those who express admiration for Putin would certainly consider Trump to be the stronger leader.


If this world was as I would like it to be, I would go clinton, but unfortunately its not. We need some strong pramatic leadership who is not afraid to take the non PI route. For instance, govts tell us for 30 yrs that free trade and globalization were good for us. Now someone finally blew the lid off that theory and was endlessly attacked for it. Trump has a nothing to lose attitude and we need that.


----------



## tygrus

Duplicate


----------



## new dog

Olivaw in all fairness to many Americans they are getting tired of being lied to and hosed over. Look at the wars, security and law changes since 9/11. Look at the 2008 financial crisis and no banker goes to jail. Look at what Hillary has done with the e-mails and so on and there are no consequences. Look what happened to Bernie and nothing happens and now he has to endorse her.

Look at what happens when a normal person bounces a $29 cheque.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ounced-a-28-check_us_57c46389e4b0cdfc5ac855dd


----------



## Eder

I'm down here in San Diego the last month...it has been hard to find people that support Hillary...there seems to be a lot of thinking "change at any price". (small sample size though)


----------



## bass player

Obama says people have to vote Hillary to preserve his legacy. As usual...it's all about him. Fortunately, people are realizing that Hillary will be just another Obama...total failure, but with more corruption.

I'm surprised another Hillary WikiLeaks hasn't been released this close to the debate, but maybe the real good stuff is being saved until just before the election.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Olivaw in all fairness to many Americans they are getting tired of being lied to and hosed over. Look at the wars, security and law changes since 9/11. Look at the 2008 financial crisis and no banker goes to jail. Look at what Hillary has done with the e-mails and so on and there are no consequences. Look what happened to Bernie and nothing happens and now he has to endorse her.
> 
> Look at what happens when a normal person bounces a $29 cheque.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ounced-a-28-check_us_57c46389e4b0cdfc5ac855dd


Dogcom, 

Most of the things that you mentioned are valid concerns - post 9/11, wars, financial crisis etc. etc. 

There were consequences for the email server. Some of her political opponents hoped hoped hoped that she would go to jail but nobody goes to jail for a misdemeanour. If anything, the political price she paid has been far higher than the transgression. 

What happened to Bernie Sanders? 

the Huff story is tragic but I think it's unfair to blame Obama for the way that a Republican county treats the poor and the sick.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Dogcom,
> 
> Most of the things that you mentioned are valid concerns - post 9/11, wars, financial crisis etc. etc.
> 
> There were consequences for the email server. Some of her political opponents hoped hoped hoped that she would go to jail but nobody goes to jail for a misdemeanour. If anything, the political price she paid has been far higher than the transgression.


Deleting government emails is a criminal offense, not a misdemeanor. The correct "price to pay" is firing and inellegibilty for office. Neither of which has happened.


----------



## sags

Public discontent leads to bad leadership choices. Trump would be a bad choice that Americans would soon regret.

If Trump had any solutions he would be telling the world all about them. Instead he tells people they are a secret.

The secret is that he doesn't have a clue......in fact he doesn't even have a click.

It takes 2 clicks to make a clack and 4 clacks to make a clue.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Public discontent leads to bad leadership choices. Trump would be a bad choice that Americans would soon regret.


Not necessarily. Trump will have almost the entire media, all the Democrats, and many of the Republicans ready to go on attack at the slightest misstep. 

On the other hand, people already know that the media covers for Hillary and she is already proven to be one of the most corrupt politicians in US history. Based on her past history, what could happen with her in charge is truly frightening because she will literally be able to get away with anything.

Only those in denial refuse to see this.


----------



## new dog

Olivaw I am not blaming Obama but instead making a point that people are fed up all the crap that has gone on since 9/11, which covers both Democrats and Republicans.

Wasn't Bernie cheated by Hillary and friends to win the nomination. I don't feel like digging it up right now but if you google it it comes up.

http://observer.com/2016/07/wikileaks-proves-primary-was-rigged-dnc-undermined-democracy/


----------



## bass player

Yes, she tried to fix it. Some people argue that it wouldn't have made any difference, but they miss the point that she fixed a democratic election campaign.

. She also had the help of "super delegates"...special elite votes that count for more. Well, we all know that the elite put rules in place to protect themselves from the "deplorables".


----------



## olivaw

Clinton won all three contests against Sanders. She won the popular vote, the delegate count and super delegates. There was no cheating dogcom. Please don't get sucked into conspiracy theories. 

Bernie Sanders accepted the outcome of the democratic primary process. He is campaigning for Hillary Clinton because he doesn't want any of his supporters voting for Trump. He and Trump are miles apart.


----------



## olivaw

tygrus said:


> If this world was as I would like it to be, I would go clinton, but unfortunately its not. We need some strong pramatic leadership who is not afraid to take the non PI route. For instance, govts tell us for 30 yrs that free trade and globalization were good for us. Now someone finally blew the lid off that theory and was endlessly attacked for it. Trump has a nothing to lose attitude and we need that.


My concern with Trump is that he would be playing checkers in a world in which America's foes are playing chess.


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> If Trump had any solutions he would be telling the world all about them. Instead he tells people they are a secret.


Sags you cant have a solution until you identify the problem. Thats what trump is doing at this stage. Clinton wouldnt even have half the platform she does without trump sound boarding the public for her. Now she has locked onto about half a dozen things he brought up. I think clinton is an autopilot president. Give her one term because she played the game and didnt derail mr hope and change back in 2008.

Trump has been in politics for 1 yr. Clinton for 40 yrs. Of course he is unpolished. But he is no more racist or a demagogue than any of them. Most politicians despise a large portion of the electorate. Thats not news.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> My concern with Trump is that he would be playing checkers in a world in which America's foes are playing chess.


This is exactly the comment people use to describe Obama when he deals with so called American foes.


On Bernie it wasn't all above board and so many Democrats were not very happy about it. I suppose many Democrats are in the conspiracy theory loop on this.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> My concern with Trump is that he would be playing checkers in a world in which America's foes are playing chess.


Obama has been playing checkers for 8 years...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> My concern with Trump is that he would be playing checkers in a world in which America's foes are playing chess.


Was he playing checkers in the primaries? He has already shown he can run rings around the best the Republican party has to offer.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> Obama has been playing checkers for 8 years...


You mean golf.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> This is exactly the comment people use to describe Obama when he deals with so called American foes.
> 
> 
> On Bernie it wasn't all above board and so many Democrats were not very happy about it. I suppose many Democrats are in the conspiracy theory loop on this.


A lot of people said that Obama had a first class mind. Nobody says that about Trump. Even his own surrogates refuse to say it.

Believe whatever you want about the Democratic primaries but Bernie Sanders conceded that Clinton won fair and square.


----------



## sags

Clinton is very popular...........

View attachment 11706


----------



## sags

Trump is tricking the public like magic, but Clinton will shut the door on that.

[video]https://streamable.com/9lhv[/video]


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Was he playing checkers in the primaries? He has already shown he can run rings around the best the Republican party has to offer.


He ran against 
- Ted Cruz, a guy that nobody likes
- A Bush
- Marco Rubio - nice guy but no experience
- Chris (bridgegate) Christie 
- Carly Fiorina - one of the worst tech CEOs in history
- Ben Carson - a retired neurosurgeon who thinks that the pyramids were built to hold grain
- John Katich - a governor that nobody noticed before
- Rand Paul - a Libertarian
- Rick Santorum, Mike Huckabee and Jim Gilmore. 

It was hardly a chess game.


----------



## new dog

Olivaw Obama is smart but that doesn't mean he can play chess with other world leaders.

Believe whatever you want about Hilary but shady stuff happens with her and everyone sees it, democrats included. Bernie was told to bend over and take it so he did.


----------



## olivaw

dogcom, put on your tin foil hat and sleep it off.


----------



## olivaw

The Kiwis don't appear to like the Donald.


----------



## indexxx

olivaw said:


> The Kiwis don't appear to like the Donald.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 11722


Very unfortunately, those attributes are what are becoming more and more accepted and expected in society, especially in younger people. Facebook, Youtube etc have made it so that everyone thinks they have to be a star and they respond to others who are egomaniacs, and nowhere is it more prevalent than the States. If T-Rump wins, it will be because of this reason.


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> Clinton is very popular...........
> 
> View attachment 11706


Looks like a wax figure cordoned off in some museum. 

I understand the hate for trump, but cheerleading hillary is hardly the antidote. She is a flawed candidate too. I am putting my coin on the candidate that will effect the most change and thats trump.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> dogcom, put on your tin foil hat and sleep it off.


This is what I am talking about when we wonder why people support Trump or something else. The people who make the rules as bass eluded to above, make it so they hold the upper hand in who becomes the president. The regular voter doesn't stand a chance and they are sick of it. Even worse despite a ton of evidence you come down to a straight out tin foil attack comment and that baseless attack makes for a losing argument. 

So I get the victory in this particular part of the debate.


----------



## sags

Change is easy. Making changes that will be a positive net impact on people's lives requires intellect, experience and patience.

None of those attributes apply to Donald Trump.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Change is easy. Making changes that will be a positive net impact on people's lives requires intellect, experience and patience.
> 
> None of those attributes apply to Donald Trump.


Or Hillary.


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> Change is easy. Making changes that will be a positive net impact on people's lives requires intellect, experience and patience.


No sags, change is not easy. It comes from challenging the paradigm and going against the grain and shaking the establishment. Everyone knows that. Continuing the status quo will give you just that. Trump is a disrupter.

Politics in the US is about to have its near death experience and from those ashes will rise a much better system, more centrist, less idealist and much more workable than the current us against them system.

A few eggs must be broken first. Dont be scared.


----------



## TomB19

Trump isn't going to disrupt anything.

I love that Bernie and Trump ruffled some feathers with the country's owners but a President can't fix the government. The president can't even introduce legislation. The president presides over the executive branch. The systemic problems, almost entirely, lay with the legislative branch.

Meanwhile, it is crystal clear that congress is not going to fix itself. Congress is also not going to listen to the Donald.

No eggs will be broken. Republicans hate trump so Trump will be a lame duck from day 1. Since Republicans will retain control of the house, Hillary will also be a lame duck from day 1.


----------



## olivaw

indexxx said:


> Very unfortunately, those attributes are what are becoming more and more accepted and expected in society, especially in younger people. Facebook, Youtube etc have made it so that everyone thinks they have to be a star and they respond to others who are egomaniacs, and nowhere is it more prevalent than the States. If T-Rump wins, it will be because of this reason.


It is indeed unfortunate. Trump use of nationalistic jingoism is nothing new but his braggadocio is unprecedented in American politics. I hope he loses badly so that it doesn't become the new norm. 

Some view Trump as an anti-establishment candidate but I don't see it. To me, he represents the worst that the 1% has to offer.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Or Hillary.


BS. Hillary may not be anyone's favourite, but she is not dangerously unqualified like Donald Trump. Trump is a thin-skinned, incurious narcissist. I would take a conniving power-hungry technocrat over that every time.


----------



## sags

Clinton leads Trump by more than 100 electoral votes counting those states solidly in her favor and in which she is leading in the polls.

To win, Trump will have to overtake Clinton in some states where she is leading and win all the remaining delegates in close races.

The electoral path to the White House is heavily favoring Hillary Clinton.

Some well known leaders will be stumping for Clinton beginning in October and Trump needs to make his move before then.

He needs to achieve more than a draw in the debates or he will gain no traction and time is running out.

It could be that Trump's chances are all on the line in the first debate.

Personally, I think Trump has hit his popularity ceiling and it will wane while Clinton support starts moving upwards.

http://www.270towin.com/


----------



## olivaw

Fivethirtyeight puts the numbers as 42-40 for Clinton leaving 18% of the electorate up for grabs. The path to 270 still looks better for her but it's far from over.

Clinton probably has the support of every living president and I expect that she will pick up endorsements from a number of influential Americans.

As you say, Sags, Clinton will have Michelle and Barack Obama, Joe Biden and Chelsea stumping for her. 

Trump has Don and Ivanka but Don may have passed his best before date.


----------



## humble_pie

tygrus said:


> No sags, change is not easy. It comes from challenging the paradigm and going against the grain and shaking the establishment. Everyone knows that. Continuing the status quo will give you just that. Trump is a disrupter.
> 
> Politics in the US is about to have its near death experience and from those ashes will rise a much better system, more centrist, less idealist and much more workable than the current us against them system.



oh my goodness. You are equating donald trump then with abraham lincoln, thomas jefferson, george washington? rising up a new confederation of states like a phoenix from the ashes?

me i can't see trump effecting change. He talks like an impulse-ridden personnage who could not even change a lightfulb. No one outside the US will ever take him seriously.

all trump has done is learn a script which appeals to ever-increasing crowds of unhappy, angry, frustrated people. But mob rule in the US won't work for the rest of us on the planet.

it's the impulse-ridden trump foreign policy that i find so terrifying.


.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> oh my goodness. You are equating donald trump then with abraham lincoln, thomas jefferson, george washington? rising up a new confederation of states like a phoenix from the ashes?
> 
> me i can't see trump effecting change. He talks like an impulse-ridden personnage who could not even change a lightfulb. No one outside the US will ever take him seriously.
> 
> all trump has done is learn a script which appeals to ever-increasing crowds of unhappy, angry, frustrated people. But mob rule in the US won't work for the rest of us on the planet.
> 
> it's the impulse-ridden trump foreign policy that i find so terrifying.
> 
> 
> .


It does appear that Trump is far more popular in Canada than the MSM will admit-on this site you have 3 posters supporting Crooked Hillary and against Trump-Sags, Olivaw and Humble Pie-that is basically it (and 90% of the pro Hillary posts are coming from the first two)-that doesn't indicate overwhelming support for Crooked Hillary north of the border.


----------



## bass player

Why a black man won't vote for Hillary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG4cSui3zbs


----------



## new dog

Hillary foreign policy does scare me, after what I have seen from Obama. Just look the other day they accidentally bomb known Syrian army positions in their fight against ISIS.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/world/middleeast/us-airstrike-syrian-troops-isis-russia.html?_r=0

Of course even though they admit it this will now be turned around and be Russia's fault. Of course even though it is fact it is still a conspiracy theory.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> It does appear that Trump is far more popular in Canada than the MSM will admit-on this site you have 3 posters supporting Crooked Hillary and against Trump-Sags, Olivaw and Humble Pie-that is basically it (and 90% of the pro Hillary posts are coming from the first two)-that doesn't indicate overwhelming support for Crooked Hillary north of the border.



no, absolutely not .each:

on this site you have 60% of poll respondents saying they would vote for hillary clinton while only 40% say they would vote for trump

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> no, absolutely not .each:
> 
> on this site you have 60% of poll respondents saying they would vote for hillary clinton while only 40% say they would vote for trump
> 
> .


Really? All I see is the same 2-3 people typing nonsense repeatedly-I see it has been 5 minutes since you demanded we support Crooked Hillary because she is a woman.


----------



## new dog

On my poll it is 60 percent Hillary. The only thing I would add is, "Terrible, scam artist but I still vote for Trump". That would be option number 5 and maybe that would change the numbers a little.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> On my poll it is 60 percent Hillary. The only thing I would add is, "Terrible, scam artist but I still vote for Trump". That would be option number 5 and maybe that would change the numbers a little.



lol now who's being the crooked manipulator?

even as it is, your poll is so skewed that it's gibberish. You should have had a straight choice duo.

1. i'd vote for hillary clinton

2. i'd vote for donald trump

anything else is just manipulation from the poll designer .:frog:

.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Really? All I see is the same 2-3 people typing nonsense repeatedly-I see it has been 5 minutes since you demanded we support Crooked Hillary because she is a woman.



what a bald-faced lie .:biggrin:

it wasn't myself 5 minutes ago, can't you even keep your cmffers straight?

.


----------



## jargey3000

If anyone cares to check back on my posts, I've said DJT will get elected from the get-go.
I stand by that. It's in the stars. "President Trump" - has a nice ring to it - don't you think?
_"Don't Be A Chump. Vote For Trump!"_


----------



## TomB19

new dog said:


> On my poll it is 60 percent Hillary. The only thing I would add is, "Terrible, scam artist but I still vote for Trump". That would be option number 5 and maybe that would change the numbers a little.


Woof.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> what a bald-faced lie .:biggrin:
> 
> it wasn't myself 5 minutes ago, can't you even keep your cmffers straight?
> 
> .


I didn't mean literally 5 minutes ago-I meant figuratively 5 minutes ago.


----------



## humble_pie

jargey3000 said:


> If anyone cares to check back on my posts, I've said DJT will get elected from the get-go.
> I stand by that. It's in the stars. "President Trump" - has a nice ring to it - don't you think?
> _"Don't Be A Chump. Vote For Trump!"_



oh dear. This is the thing about the deplorables in the outports, they're ravished by the orange wig


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> I didn't mean literally 5 minutes ago-I meant figuratively 5 minutes ago.



oh stop with the nonsense, all it does is harm your cause ... quite ... deplorably ...


----------



## jargey3000

humble_pie said:


> oh dear. This is the thing about the deplorables in the outports, they're ravished by the orange wig


h-pie - you've been reading too much marg. wente, b'y!


----------



## TomB19

jargey3000 said:


> "President Trump" - has a nice ring to it - don't you think?


I hope it's the wrong number.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Hillary foreign policy does scare me, after what I have seen from Obama. Just look the other day they accidentally bomb known Syrian army positions in their fight against ISIS.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/world/middleeast/us-airstrike-syrian-troops-isis-russia.html?_r=0
> 
> Of course even though they admit it this will now be turned around and be Russia's fault. Of course even though it is fact it is still a conspiracy theory.



it was a mistake. Mistakes happen in war. There are friendly-fire accidents all the time. Canada has lost a number of brave soldiers in the middle east from friendly fire in recent years.

far, far, far worse than the US bombardment of syrian soldiers was the unspeakable Russian bombardment of Aleppo only days ago. Hundreds were killed. Incredible as it seems, the russians were deliberately bombing hospitals in Aleppo.

UN special envoy to syria Stefan de Mistura - arguably the calmest, most patient man in the world when it comes to syria - was so outraged against russia that he had difficulty speaking to the general assembly. Quite accurately, this wise & gentle diplomat man pointed out that there will be no winners with the russian bombing sequences, because there is not going to be any syria left.

US ambassador to the UN Samantha Power was equally vehement.

.


----------



## humble_pie

jargey3000 said:


> h-pie - you've been reading too much marg. wente, b'y!



jargey i saw a headline - something about a cod - but i didn't read the article. I'm not a globe columnist fan, i never read the wente.

please tell me now, though, like a good fellow. How is it going on the Rock? are y'll voting for the orange wig?

i mean, how could you! newfoundlanders are the nicest people, what could be going wrong with them suddenly!

brian tobin!! joey smallwood!!!

is mister smallwood in his grave yet? if so he'll turn over to hear you talkin like that ...

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> it was a mistake. Mistakes happen in war. There are friendly-fire accidents all the time. Canada has lost a number of brave soldiers in the middle east from friendly fire in recent years.
> 
> far, far, far worse than the US bombardment of syrian soldiers was the unspeakable Russian bombardment of Aleppo only days ago. Hundreds were killed. Incredible as it seems, the russians were deliberately bombing hospitals in Aleppo.
> 
> UN special envoy to syria Stefan de Mistura - arguably the calmest, most patient man in the world when it comes to syria - was so outraged against russia that he had difficulty speaking to the general assembly. Quite accurately, this wise & gentle diplomat man pointed out that there will be no winners with the russian bombing sequences, because there is not going to be any syria left.
> 
> US ambassador to the UN Samantha Power was equally vehement.
> 
> .


YUP-the destruction of Iraq was another "mistake"-according to Humble and the MSM.


----------



## jargey3000

...i was really hoping Donny would choose Danny for his running mate...
what an unbeatable combo THAT would be !!!!


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> YUP-the destruction of Iraq was another "mistake"-according to Humble and the MSM.



i never said that
please don't put words in my mouth


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> It does appear that Trump is far more popular in Canada than the MSM will admit-on this site you have 3 posters supporting Crooked Hillary and against Trump-Sags, Olivaw and Humble Pie-that is basically it (and 90% of the pro Hillary posts are coming from the first two)-that doesn't indicate overwhelming support for Crooked Hillary north of the border.


Are you even Canadian? You only comment on the US election. Odd behaviour for a Canadian personal finance website.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Are you even Canadian? You only comment on the US election. Odd behaviour for a Canadian personal finance website.


Newsflash Einstein: You are on the same thread.


----------



## tygrus

humble, all the reason for the US military to stay home instead of getting entangled in and starting foreign wars. Trumps central platform.


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> Are you even Canadian? You only comment on the US election.


We need to build an impenetrable and beautiful wall around this forum.


----------



## humble_pie

tygrus said:


> humble, all the reason for the US military to stay home instead of getting entangled in and starting foreign wars. Trumps central platform.



idk, should we discuss military policy here in this lunatic thread? i mean, you'd be good at it (military i mean, not lunatic) but surely we'd be better off postponing for another venue.

there are 10 million drop points in modern history, maybe 100 million depending how far back in time we go, where one could say Look what a Mistake the US is Making, we Must go back now to pre-Pearl Harbour isolationist policy.

& there are 10 million arguments, maybe 100 million arguments, where one can say We must do our Best to prevent Atrocity.

this is really another discussion. But i for one am very pleased - now - with the withdrawal of the F-18s from iraq, a decision the liberal party had made before trudeau was elected in october 2015. There is too much risk of civilian injury & death in any bombing strategy.

yet at the same time canada will offer expert combat resistance, even special forces commando resistance, on some or even many of the world's critical fronts.

me i think that canada is in the midst of unveiling a carefully engineered military platform, designed to protect our country & do the best we can in an outside world full of terrorists, uprisings & civil wars. 

and i also think that trump personally has zero understanding of foreign policy, he's merely babbling out thoughtless nonsense that he thinks american voters want to hear.


.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> idk, should we discuss military policy here in this lunatic thread? i mean, you'd be good at it (military i mean, not lunatic) but surely we'd be better off postponing for another venue.
> 
> there are 10 million drop points in modern history, maybe 100 million depending how far back in time we go, where one could say Look what a Mistake the US is Making, we Must go back now to pre-Pearl Harbour isolationist policy.
> 
> & there are 10 million arguments, maybe 100 million arguments, where one can say We must do our Best to prevent Atrocity.
> 
> this is really another discussion. But i for one am very pleased - now - with the withdrawal of the F-18s from iraq, a decision the liberal party had made before trudeau was elected in october 2015. There is too much risk of civilian injury & death in any bombing strategy.
> 
> yet at the same time canada will offer expert combat resistance, even special forces commando resistance, on some or even many of the world's critical fronts.
> 
> me i think that canada is in the midst of unveiling a carefully engineered military platform, designed to protect our country & do the best we can in an outside world full of terrorists, uprisings & civil wars.
> 
> and i also think that trump personally has zero understanding of foreign policy, he's merely babbling out thoughtless nonsense that he thinks american voters want to hear.
> 
> 
> .


Look Humble-this isn't 1986 or 1976-the public no longer buys what you are selling-which is basically that there is this group of altruistic experts in foreign policy who just want to help out and no matter what goes wrong it is never their fault or anyone's fault-because they are "experts". How do we know they are experts? Because they have titles and awards BLAH BLAH BLAH. This is 2016 and Trump gets that-you are living in the past.


----------



## olivaw

Humble, please don't debate the tin foil hat folks like nelley. They always follow the same script: 
- Obstinately repeat their (usually pointless) point
- Argue about the debate you are having
- Declare victory for themselves.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> We need to build an impenetrable and beautiful wall around this forum.


To stop our southern neighbours? 

_some, I assume, are good people. _
- DJT


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Look Humble-this isn't 1986 or 1976-the public no longer buys what you are selling.


i
oh yes the canadian public is buying it. On the instalment plan. Is why they elected the liberal party 11 months ago.

but you, nelley, you've missed the sale. We all know how the nelley is living night & day in a sealed cell furnished with nothing more than her youtube channel & her e-mail device, so she'll never be able to grasp the precision miitary plans emerging from ottawa these days. 

the world is a hard place now. These plans are the best defence-&-rescue strategies canada has seen in this century.

the truly interesting thing is that there were some signs of this new current of change even under stephen harper's government.

.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Newsflash Einstein: You are on the same thread.


I have been around for more than a month and have written extensively about Canadian personal finance/investing. You are either a sock puppet or an activist. I doubt you are even Canadian. Your only agenda is Trump boosterism. I am only tangentially interested in the US election.


----------



## olivaw

In 2012, Trump endorsed Hillary Clinton.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5A02pNcGHs


----------



## tygrus

Humble, the issue is trump and his policies including military intervention. You know the world is a brutal place and sometimes doing nothing is the better option because intervention sometimes breeds resentment. Yes canada shouldnt be doing random bombing in the ME, nobody should. Sometimes dictators should be allowed to continue because the alternative is worse. US should have been done with ISIS in a week but they couldnt resist slipping over to syria and turkey to get involved there, then that brought the russians in.


----------



## andrewf

^ I'd be very interested to know who, if any, is doing 'random bombing' in the ME or elsewhere.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> In 2012, Trump endorsed Hillary Clinton.


Holy cow, that clip contains a crazy amount of sarcasm.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> I have been around for more than a month and have written extensively about Canadian personal finance/investing. You are either a sock puppet or an activist. I doubt you are even Canadian. Your only agenda is Trump boosterism. I am only tangentially interested in the US election.


"I doubt you are even Canadian"-you sound just like Joseph McCarthy so I guess that makes me Dalton Trumbo.


----------



## tygrus

Here is the basics of trumps policies;

- strong military but stay home and protect US borders
- unchecked immigration is bad, needs reform
- trade policies that send manufacturing overseas with no return gain is bad
- central bank power should be curbed
- terrorism needs a stronger and sharper response
etc

What dont you agree with?


----------



## bass player

tygrus said:


> Here is the basics of trumps policies;
> 
> - strong military but stay home and protect US borders
> - unchecked immigration is bad, needs reform
> - trade policies that send manufacturing overseas with no return gain is bad
> - central bank power should be curbed
> - terrorism needs a stronger and sharper response
> etc
> 
> What dont you agree with?


The media that they listen to doesn't explain it that accurately. All they hear is "Trump is racist", "Trump is a warmonger", and "Trump hates women". Their entire mindset comes from leftist media lies.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> "I doubt you are even Canadian"-you sound just like Joseph McCarthy so I guess that makes me Dalton Trumbo.


No denial. You are engaging in some form of trolling:
-a sock puppet of an existing user who is too terrified to tie his Trump support to an existing account
-someone who is uninterested in this forum/community and is here just to stir up controversy

I would encourage everyone to stop feeding the troll.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> No denial. You are engaging in some form of trolling:
> -a sock puppet of an existing user who is too terrified to tie his Trump support to an existing account
> -someone who is uninterested in this forum/community and is here just to stir up controversy
> 
> I would encourage everyone to stop feeding the troll.


Your posts are so useful and informative-where would we be without you-jeez.


----------



## jargey3000

on the flip side...maybe there's a headline just waiting to be written..._"CLINTON TRUMPS TRUMP !"_....
naw...in this crazy, upside-down, turbulent, reality-based, attention-deficited, social-mediaized, tweeting/facebooked/instagrammed world we live in.. Trump is THE man of our times...
can't you all see that?? we get the President we deserve...


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> The media that they listen to doesn't explain it that accurately. All they hear is "Trump is racist", "Trump is a warmonger", and "Trump hates women". Their entire mindset comes from leftist media lies.


Sorry Bass player, but I have to BS on that; we've all heard & seen it directly from the horse's mouth.

Trump has repeatedly made statements that are racist, warmongering, & misogynistic; we've all heard them, you can't blame the 'leftist' media for stuff he has actually and unrepentantly said.


----------



## TomB19

tygrus said:


> What dont you agree with?


Specifically, the racism, ignorance, and anti-science.

The guy doesn't believe CFCs from hair spray can get into the atmosphere because his apartment is sealed.


----------



## tygrus

Hilary just called a portion of the population deplorable. She thinks she was a force for good in the ME which spawned ISIS and obfuscated evidence on her server. She broke FBI protocols and lied under oath to senate panel. She was involved in several scandals such as whitewater and her cattle shares and her $250,000 per speech engagements. 

Dont tell me she is an angel. She is just as down and dirty as trump is.


----------



## humble_pie

tygrus said:


> Humble, the issue is trump and his policies including military intervention. You know the world is a brutal place and sometimes doing nothing is the better option because intervention sometimes breeds resentment. Yes canada shouldnt be doing random bombing in the ME, nobody should.


yes i believe you're right. Quite apart from the humanitarian issue of bombing that by definition will inevitably kill at least some civilians, is the new alacrity with which bombed countries are sprinting to the world court in the Hague to lay war crime charges. There is no reason for canada to be exposed to this.




> Sometimes dictators should be allowed to continue because the alternative is worse.


i agree in principle although this did not work out too well for the US with north Vietnam & nguyen kao ky in south vietnam ...




> US should have been done with ISIS in a week but they couldnt resist slipping over to syria and turkey to get involved there, then that brought the russians in.


here i strongly disagree with you. The US could not possibly deal with ISIL in a week, neither can russia. Because - as Amal Clooney told a journo last week while explaining her campaign to free & defend yezidi women using international courts - it is not possible to "kill an idea with warfare."

Clooney is right, it's the spread of fundamental islam that puts the world at risk & bombs here or there are not going to solve the problem by themselves.


nor did the US "slip over" to syria. The beheading of James Foley at raqqa in the summer of 2014 may have galvanized the US into a wider map of action, but it was the spread of ISIL in 2014, moving from iraq to capture towns across syria, that inevitably drew the western coalition into syria. Perhaps you can remember the canadian hesitation over the first sorties of canadian military on syrian soil?


as for turkey, the US didn't suddenly "slip over" into turkey either. The US has been entangled with turkey, militarily sworn & bound to turkey, ever since turkey joined NATO.

i had to look this date up just now. When turkey joined NATO. I was flabbergasted. The year was 1951. Can you imagine that? the 2 countries have been avowed political friends, have been brothers in arms together, for all of the past 65 years. Since before obama was born. Since before erdogan was born. 

who all were in power in 1951? eisenhower? stalin? charles de gaulle? david ben gurion?

that's how long turkey, NATO & the US have been knitted together. It's not a question of the US suddenly & wrongfully taking an action with a stranger nation. To this day, afaik, the US is still storing active nuclear missiles on the turkish NATO base in asia minor (although in 2016 that has to be one of the stupidest arrangements i have ever heard of.)

.


----------



## jargey3000

....anyone care to make a small wager with me.... on the outcome of the election.....???


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> yes i believe you're right. Quite apart from the humanitarian issue of bombing that by definition will inevitably kill at least some civilians, is the new alacrity with which bombed countries are sprinting to the world court in the Hague to lay war crime charges. There is no reason for canada to be exposed to this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i agree in principle although this did not work out too well for the US with north Vietnam & nguyen kao ky in south vietnam ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here i strongly disagree with you. The US could not possibly deal with ISIL in a week, neither can russia. Because - as Amal Clooney told a journo last week while explaining her campaign to free & defend yezidi women using international courts - it is not possible to "kill an idea with warfare."
> 
> Clooney is right, it's the spread of fundamental islam that puts the world at risk & bombs here or there are not going to solve the problem by themselves.
> 
> 
> nor did the US "slip over" to syria. The beheading of James Foley at raqqa in the summer of 2014 may have galvanized the US into a wider map of action, but it was the spread of ISIL in 2014, moving from iraq to capture towns across syria, that inevitably drew the western coalition into syria. Perhaps you can remember the canadian hesitation over the first sorties of canadian military on syrian soil?
> 
> 
> as for turkey, the US didn't suddenly "slip over" into turkey either. The US has been entangled with turkey, militarily sworn & bound to turkey, ever since turkey joined NATO.
> 
> i had to look this date up just now. When turkey joined NATO. I was flabbergasted. The year was 1951. Can you imagine that? the 2 countries have been avowed political friends, have been brothers in arms together, for all of the past 65 years. Since before obama was born. Since before erdogan was born.
> 
> who all were in power in 1951? eisenhower? stalin? charles de gaulle? david ben gurion?
> 
> that's how long turkey, NATO & the US have been knitted together. It's not a question of the US suddenly & wrongfully taking an action with a stranger nation. To this day, afaik, the US is still storing active nuclear missiles on the turkish NATO base in asia minor (although in 2016 that has to be one of the stupidest arrangements i have ever heard of.)
> 
> .


Your ignorance is laughable-exactly how do you think fundamental Islam became such a major problem in Europe-it just magically appeared? Jeez.


----------



## mrPPincer

jargey3000 said:


> ....anyone care to make a small wager with me.... on the outcome of the election.....???


The wrong outcome would result in a major plunge in my portfolio value, I've already got cards on the table, so nope, not me, no need to up the stakes


----------



## TomB19

jargey3000 said:


> ....anyone care to make a small wager with me.... on the outcome of the election.....???


It seems to be a little early to be bullish on either candidate. Hillary is the sleight favorite but Trump is still a possibility.


----------



## TomB19

Has anyone else considered the idea that Nelley and bass player work for Nimble America?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/23/oculus-rift-vr-palmer-luckey-trump-shitposts


----------



## mrPPincer

TomB19 said:


> Has anyone else considered the idea that Nelley and bass player work for Nimble America?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/23/oculus-rift-vr-palmer-luckey-trump-shitposts


Yes.


----------



## TomB19

I wonder if Nelley and bass player will change their position, now that it has been unequivocally proven that Donald Trump is working for Vladimir Putin to annex America into the Russian federation and install a regional government that reports to the Kremlin? 


In defense of Nelley and bass player, this style of posting is supremely amusing to the point that I can see why they do it.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Has anyone else considered the idea that Nelley and bass player work for Nimble America?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/23/oculus-rift-vr-palmer-luckey-trump-shitposts


Our last report to Boris and Natasha was not good so you better just smarten up-we thought Moose and Squirrel were bad until we met you guys.


----------



## TomB19

Hey Nelley, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Has anyone else considered the idea that Nelley and bass player work for Nimble America?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/23/oculus-rift-vr-palmer-luckey-trump-shitposts



actually had never heard of nimble but the setup fits like a glove. 

like a glove. Tom you had one upthread, did you not? the glove with the battery fingers? 

notice the reference to breitbart. I'm wondering, did they get dogcom, aka new dog, to join? or is he just fellow-travelling ...


.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Hey Nelley, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat.


You better put masking tape over your webcams-Fearless Leader could be watching.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> lol now who's being the crooked manipulator?
> 
> even as it is, your poll is so skewed that it's gibberish. You should have had a straight choice duo.
> 
> 1. i'd vote for hillary clinton
> 
> 2. i'd vote for donald trump
> 
> anything else is just manipulation from the poll designer .:frog:
> 
> .



That poll would have been a bit boring. I decided we needed it to be a little entertaining and fun so that is why I made the poll that way. Also it does give us a rough idea who we might vote for if we could.

However Humble didn't you notice I was backing you up over Nelley when I mentioned the 60 percent. You may or may not have noticed I do correct or admit stuff when I see something wrong, I don't see many posters on this forum doing that.


----------



## mrPPincer

new dog said:


> Humble didn't you notice I was backing you up over Nelley when I mentioned the 60 percent. You may or may not have noticed I do correct or admit stuff when I see something wrong, I don't see many posters on this forum doing that.


I saw that 
hp's response did seem a little strange considering the circumstance.


----------



## sags

Best line I read online so far.......

_If people take one drink every time Trump tells a lie, they will be face down in their nachos by the end of the debate._

If anyone doesn't have cable, the debate is broadcast live on a Twitter/Bloomberg stream.

The worldwide audience is huge and advertising costs probably weren't very high, so advertisers are getting a big bang for their buck.

On Bloomberg they are saying that Trump will come for an interview after the debate. That has never been done before.

The Clintons and Trumps are in the hall. The moderator is on stage...............it's post time.


----------



## newbie3

*Roller Coaster*

Got the popcorn ready.


----------



## TomB19

The debate is going exactly as expected. It's a knife fight. lol!


----------



## TomB19

Live video.


----------



## indexxx

TomB19 said:


> Hey Nelley, watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat.


That trick never works...


----------



## olivaw

This debate is fun to watch.


----------



## indexxx

Wait- I thought Hillary was supposed to have 'Parkinson's' or some other debilitating disease? How come she is lucid and healthy? Praise Jeebus- it's a MIRACLE!!


----------



## indexxx

WHOOPS!! Did T-Rump just drop a body-shaming bomb??


----------



## indexxx

Did Donny just say that the Democrats shouldn't have been in Iraq? It was Bush who went in!


----------



## bass player

indexxx said:


> Wait- I thought Hillary was supposed to have 'Parkinson's' or some other debilitating disease? How come she is lucid and healthy? Praise Jeebus- it's a MIRACLE!!


So, she stays upright for 90 minutes and all the health questions are answered, and all the past collapses can be ignored?


----------



## mrPPincer

hahaha yep trump is going down in flames, thnak god, (and I'm not religious).


----------



## olivaw

Trump said he had a better temperament. The audience burst into laughter. Hilarious.


----------



## indexxx

Yeah- what a meatwand. He's coming across like the bully he is.


----------



## indexxx

I can't believe he actually said that cyberhackers could be a "400-pound guy lying on a sofa". That is so offensive and he doesn't even realize it.


----------



## olivaw

is it just me or does Trump seem rattled? 

I actually thought he was going to be better than this.


----------



## indexxx

He knows he totally blew it. He's deflected a few questions with smokescreens.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> is it just me or does Trump seem rattled?
> 
> I actually thought he was going to be better than this.


For once I agree with you.


----------



## indexxx

Chump flip-flopped like a dying fish in the sun on so many points- things that he said in the past he tried to deny. Does he think quotes can't be looked up?

:stupid::stupid::stupid:


----------



## bass player

Trump blew it. All he had to do was keep his cool and nail Hillary on a few things that the media chooses to ignore but he didn't.


----------



## new dog

Trump stayed calm and other then the 400 pound thing didn't go crazy.

Having said that Hillary looked good and healthy and kept Trump on the defensive the entire debate. She may be full of crap who knows but she did better on the debate in my opinion. Trump had opportunities to answer the questions and really address them but instead constantly had to respond in defence to what Hillary had just said. 

He did a good job saying all Hillary talks about is Russia in hacking and a few other things but it was kind of forgettable.


----------



## sags

Clinton was very good, precise and well prepared.

Trump was caught off guard, rambling all over the place and did a poor job of defending a host of issues.

Having said that we will see if any of it matters.

Do Trump supporters even care ? Do the undecided voters care ? Time will tell.

If Trump wins this election it will reveal the level of discontent that has been simmering under the surface for along time and finally erupted.


----------



## andrewf

As Trump said, he could kill someone in the middle of 5th Aveneue and the rubes would still vote for him.


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> Trump blew it. All he had to do was keep his cool and nail Hillary on a few things that the media chooses to ignore but he didn't.


I think he did keep his cool that wasn't the problem. The problem was more of what sags said and always being on the defensive.


----------



## mordko

Neither candidate did particularly well. Both spent a lot of time talking to respective core support. Trump was very irritating in the way he kept interrupting and rambling but he always does that and is still popular with fans. 

Clinton did well enough to maintain her lead - that's my guess, we shall see. 

Any Canadian supporting Trump given how he went after NAFTA should have his head examined.


----------



## Nelley

I thought Crooked Hillary performed very well but I wonder if it was because my expectations for her had been lowered. Anyway, I thought she spoke well and then I look at the online polls and I guess everybody has their own opinion. The highest number I could see for her was 54% at TIME (a rabidly anti-trump site)-Trump won every other poll I could find in a quick search-most very easily-I am sure the Crooked Hillary supporters will find more victories for her but at this point I am wondering if the debates are going to sway anybody at all-doesn't look like it IMO.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> As Trump said, he could kill someone in the middle of 5th Aveneue and the rubes would still vote for him.


It goes both ways. Hillary has lied and been corrupt for her entire career and the clueless progressives still think she's a great choice.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Neither candidate did particularly well. Both spent a lot of time talking to respective core support. Trump was very irritating in the way he kept interrupting and rambling but he always does that and is still popular with fans.
> 
> Clinton did well enough to maintain her lead - that's my guess, we shall see.
> 
> Any Canadian supporting Trump given how he went after NAFTA should have his head examined.


Ontario had a very strong manufacturing economy prior to NAFTA-in fact, Ontario once was the richest province in Canada.


----------



## mordko

Futures jumped, obviously the market thinks Clinton nailed it.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Ontario had a very strong manufacturing economy prior to NAFTA-in fact, Ontario once was the richest province in Canada.


That was before Liberals took over and implemented their great energy policies.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> It goes both ways. Hillary has lied and been corrupt for her entire career and the clueless progressives still think she's a great choice.


The bigger problem is that the Republican alternative is such a cartoonishly ill-suited candidate for president that he cannot defeat the least popular Democratic candidate in recent history.


----------



## olivaw

Debates matter. They won't sway locked in voters. They may tilt a few undecided voters though and that is what matters.


----------



## Nelley

I think many forget that this was a public speaking contest and like I said Crooked Hillary did very well IMO-however, IMO she freely lied through her teeth as she was allowed to under the debate rules so it makes one wonder what is the purpose of the whole event-I guess it was entertaining and that is the bottom line-what it has to do with actually doing the job is questionable for sure. I did love how they brought up birther and all sorts of other stuff and if you didn't know already you would not even know this person was under FBI investigation-the moderator took great pains to avoid that whole subject. Anyway, it was pretty good for a debate IMO.


----------



## sags

On NAFTA.......I of course support the concept, but question if the inclusion of Mexico has been of any benefit to Canadians.

But.......Unifor did manage to get a contract from GM that includes bringing work back from Mexico.

Only problem is that it took concessions of their DB pension plan, and a lot of Federal government "grant" money to get it done.

If the taxpayer is happy subsidizing companies to stay in Canada........as opposed to moving to Mexico, it could get expensive.

The government will have to do a benefit analysis to see if it is a net gain or loss.

I should also add that a non-union workplace wouldn't have been able to negotiate a similar deal.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> That was before Liberals took over and implemented their great energy policies.


NAFTA has been a job creator for Mexico-no point in spinning it and I don't want to debate it anyway.


----------



## new dog

TPP is still the most important issue for me and if the candidate stops it from going forward that is good for Canada. Canada it seems will just sign it and we will all be screwed by it.


----------



## TomB19

I was around before NAFTA and after. I wouldn't call it a glaring success but it didn't decimate our country, either.

Overall, it was about raising the bar in Mexico and it accomplished that to a limited extent.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> TPP is still the most important issue for me and if the candidate stops it from going forward that is good for Canada. Canada it seems will just sign it and we will all be screwed by it.


I don't think a world where Canada did not sign NAFTA would have worked out very well for Canadian manufacturing either. We could be like Brazil with $2000 iPhones.


----------



## sags

Trump bragged about.........

Not paying any Federal taxes, while regular folks have to.

Hoping for a housing crash in 2008, while many people were losing their homes.

Earning $650 million as a member of the 1%, while many struggle.

Clinton nailed Trump on the first two, but let him escape on the last one.


----------



## sags

new dog said:


> TPP is still the most important issue for me and if the candidate stops it from going forward that is good for Canada. Canada it seems will just sign it and we will all be screwed by it.


If the Americans sign it..........we will have to hold our nose and sign it too.

That is the position that I think Trudeau has adopted and it is the only practical solution there is.

We must have access to the US market.........absolutely must.

Perhaps consumers could be encouraged through package labeling to buy Canadian whenever possible.


----------



## olivaw

CNN poll: 62% say the winner is Clinton 

There were more Dems than Repubs polled.


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> I don't think a world where Canada did not sign NAFTA would have worked out very well for Canadian manufacturing either.


We got to decide if our manufacturing was going to Mexico or China. We chose Mexico.

It's not like manufacturing has been healthy in Canada since the 1990s.


----------



## sags

olivaw said:


> CNN poll: 62% say the winner is Clinton
> 
> There were more Dems than Repubs polled.


Then it looks like a split, similar to national polling. Nothing much gained or lost by either side.

All Clinton needs to win is to maintain her thin lead in several states. 

If she can hold onto a couple of those, the electoral vote path for Trump gets blocked off as he would need to sweep the rest.

The segments on CNN that I like best are the ones with John King and the big board. He explains it so well.


----------



## olivaw

Mexico was not part of NAFTA when we initially agreed to it.


----------



## sags

We should have joined with Mexico to form a new country, surrounded the US, and had a nice warm place to live.

Then Trump wouldn't have to build a wall..........because everyone would want to live in Canexico


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> Then it looks like a split, similar to national polling. Nothing much gained or lost by either side.
> 
> All Clinton needs to win is to maintain her thin lead in several states.
> 
> If she can hold onto a couple of those, the electoral vote path for Trump gets blocked off as he would need to sweep the rest.
> 
> The segments on CNN that I like best are the ones with John King and the big board. He explains it so well.


I like John King too. 

I'm surprised that the CNN panel is coming down so clearly on the Clinton side in this debate. Usually they wait for poll numbers to declare a winner.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> If the Americans sign it..........we will have to hold our nose and sign it too.
> 
> That is the position that I think Trudeau has adopted and it is the only practical solution there is.
> 
> We must have access to the US market.........absolutely must.
> 
> Perhaps consumers could be encouraged through package labeling to buy Canadian whenever possible.


This is why it is so important for us the new US president doesn't sign this deal. There are a lot of very bad things in this deal that we won't want to see.


----------



## sags

olivaw said:


> I like John King too.
> 
> I'm surprised that the CNN panel is coming down so clearly on the Clinton side in this debate. Usually they wait for poll numbers to declare a winner.


Even Republicans, Fox News, Bloomberg, and Trump supporters are saying Clinton won the debate.

The question is if would be Trump voters care.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Trump bragged about.........
> 
> Not paying any Federal taxes, while regular folks have to.
> 
> Hoping for a housing crash in 2008, while many people were losing their homes.
> 
> Earning $650 million as a member of the 1%, while many struggle.
> 
> Clinton nailed Trump on the first two, but let him escape on the last one.


The Clinton's are part of the 1%, too. Yet, for some reason it's only bad that Trump is one. Why the hypocrisy??


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> I like John King too.
> 
> I'm surprised that the CNN panel is coming down so clearly on the Clinton side in this debate. Usually they wait for poll numbers to declare a winner.


CNN are rabid Hillary supporters and their coverage is so biased that it's laughable.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> The Clinton's are part of the 1%, too. Yet, for some reason it's only bad that Trump is one. Why the hypocrisy??


A difference is that Clinton wasn't rooting for a housing crisis so she could pick up some cheap homes and flip them, like Trump was.

At least she was smart enough not to say it in public, and then reinforce it in a Presidential debate.

That is one of Trump's weaknesses. He won't give up on a bad idea.

He is still going on about Rosie O'Donnell.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> A difference is that Clinton wasn't rooting for a housing crisis so she could pick up some cheap homes and flip them, like Trump was.


Well, at least you're not suggesting that the Clintons earned their money with honest work...


----------



## Eder

I think with the exception on the issue of cyber security I think Trump won. Haven't yet checked the news media but I can guess lol.


----------



## bass player

Eder said:


> I think with the exception on the issue of cyber security I think Trump won. Haven't yet checked the news media but I can guess lol.


Trump should have brought up that Hillary's illegal email server contained secret emails and may have put national security at risk.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> CNN are rabid Hillary supporters and their coverage is so biased that it's laughable.


Their past coverage was reasonably balance but their panelists were incredulous at Trump's success. The difference now is that they appear very much to be opposed to Trump.

My view, as I mentioned before, is that Trump's attempt to put the birther thing behind him was too clever by half. It alienated reporters and columnists alike.

Where was Corey Lewandowski today? Did CNN fire him or did he lock himself in the supply closet with a bottle of cheap scotch?


----------



## gibor365

it's funny how currencies reacted  Yen "supporting" Trump, other currencies, esp. Mexican peso and CDN$ "support" Hillary 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...drop-amid-haven-revival-before-debate#media-3


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> Even Republicans, Fox News, Bloomberg, and Trump supporters are saying Clinton won the debate.
> 
> The question is if would be Trump voters care.


I think much of his support is locked in. Clinton needed to do two things to change the narrative.
1) Motivate her own supporters to close the enthusiasm gap. I'd say she did all she could have tonight.
2) Make herself appear more Presidential than Trump to undecided and moderate voters. 

Early reports and polls suggest that she did well at both. Now we'll have to wait a few days for polling numbers. 

Only five days to go until the SNL presidential debate skit.


----------



## TomB19

Trump already said he walked away with it but that seemed pretty close to me. Trump didn't have to do that well, as his expectations were low. I'd say he put in a very solid performance, considering the circus of crap he has thrown out there he had to defend.

Hillary had to attempt to dominate. She did OK. I'd say she won but she didn't cover the spread.


----------



## indexxx

I don't know the bias of this source, but a lot of opinions expressed on the debate on this site:

http://www.ketv.com/national/who-won-the-debate/41844450

Personally, I had never really seen Clinton speak since starting here campaign. ( I don't own a TV and don't really care about or follow politics). So my expectations were really mostly from this discussion thread- I was sort of expecting a weak, slightly unfriendly and cold-seeming woman who w showing signs of age and frailty, or at least recent illness as many here have alluded to (or been outright convince of). Wanting to be as objective as I can (I'm mostly NDP these days with a side of Greens...), what I saw was Hillary looking and sounding very strong and spry, in control, sharp as a tack, engaging, level-headed, and actually rather likeable despite seeing many references to the contrary on that last point. Trump has some good points but I came away no more convinced of his answers to any issues or confidence in him as true leader material than before (a business shark does not equal a leader- quite the opposite). He came across as back-pedalling, blustery, impolite, ego-driven, self-centred on his personal business interests, and twisted facts as well as being rather offensive. Game- Hillary Clinton.


----------



## olivaw

Clinton exceeded my expectations too.

A dear old friend in the United States and I were exchanging texts during the debate. As a lifelong Democrat he was pleased but not surprised. I guess he is familiar enough with Clinton that he never doubted her ability to best DJT.


----------



## new dog

Leading up to the debates and the way Clinton performed it does seem likely that she did have Pneumonia. Pneumonia can drain you and make you look like you are almost dead at times. I think her handlers and the media did let this get out of control by not coming clean on it and letting the alternative media run with it. In the debate Trump was drinking water and she didn't even reach for it once although I think she should have because drinking enough water is good for you.

On the CNN panel Trump had that blonde Kayleigh McEnany supporting him and he definitely gets the win here in my books. I wouldn't mind if she was on my side.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/09/ka...ebate-he-reacts-the-way-average-people-react/


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> A difference is that Clinton wasn't rooting for a housing crisis so she could pick up some cheap homes and flip them, like Trump was.
> 
> .


Then again Bill Clinton personally contributed the most to the crisis by forcing Fannie Mae to lend to low income birrowers in deprived areas and minorities regardless of affordability and without down payments. When in 2005 Federal Reserve warned that these policies were leading to a housing crisis, Hillary joined Obama and other democratic senators and blocked Republican reforms designed to stave off the crisis. 

That was probably the single most hypocritical comment during any debates I remember but Trump instead of capitalizing just kept rambling on how clever and wonderful he is.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Then again Bill Clinton personally contributed the most to the crisis by forcing Fannie Mae to lend to low income birrowers in deprived areas and minorities regardless of affordability and without down payments. When in 2005 Federal Reserve warned that these policies were leading to a housing crisis, Hillary joined Obama and other democratic senators and blocked Republican reforms designed to stave off the crisis.
> 
> That was probably the single most hypocritical comment during any debates I remember but Trump instead of capitalizing just kept rambling on how clever and wonderful he is.


The media "fact checkers" somehow missed that. And, of course, they also "missed" that Blumenthal was the original birther. They sure seem to miss a lot of inconvenient facts about Hillary.


----------



## Nelley

No mention about the structure of the debate-I looked at BBC (anti-trump big time) and even they admitted that the questions seemed way off fair-Trump's taxes, birther-yet nothing about FBI investigation or illegal server or Clinton Foundation. IMO Crooked Hillary did better than Trump style wise but the obvious unfairness of the debate IMO will simply motivate Trump voters.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> No mention about the structure of the debate-I looked at BBC (anti-trump big time) and even they admitted that the questions seemed way off fair-Trump's taxes, birther-yet nothing about FBI investigation or illegal server or Clinton Foundation. IMO Crooked Hillary did better than Trump style wise but the obvious unfairness of the debate IMO will simply motivate Trump voters.


Hillary also go help from Lester Holt...he pushed Trump on his taxes, but didn't push Hillary on her illegal email server or her connections to the original birther, which was her close advisor Blumenthal. He also questioned Trump about the false claim that he kicked black people out of apartments, but when Hillary's "super predator" remark was brought up he left it alone.

It was stacked against Trump, but I still think he could have done better.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Hillary also go help from Lester Holt...he pushed Trump on his taxes, but didn't push Hillary on her illegal email server or her connections to the original birther, which was her close advisor Blumenthal. He also questioned Trump about the false claim that he kicked black people out of apartments, but when Hillary's "super predator" remark was brought up he left it alone.
> 
> It was stacked against Trump, but I still think he could have done better.


As a sporting event IMO Crooked Hillary won, but the reality is that only her supporters actually bought any of that stuff she was selling-I thought her style was good but the substance made no logical sense at all so IMO these debates are basically entertainment if anything.


----------



## new dog

Mordko, Nelley and Bass you guys all came up with some great points. I believe there are 3 debates and if that is true then a lot of the Trump crap has come out here and now he can attack Hillary in the next debates. He will need to answer the questions, defend less and go after Hillary without looking like a bully.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> Mordko, Nelley and Bass you guys all came up with some great points. I believe there are 3 debates and if that is true then a lot of the Trump crap has come out here and now he can attack Hillary in the next debates. He will need to answer the questions, defend less and go after Hillary without looking like a bully.


Trump is not a fool...much of what he has done and said so far in the campaign has been calculated and done deliberately. He also has some good advisors and they will look back on the debate and learn.

One thing that Trump must understand that no moderator will ask Hillary a tough question, so it's up to him to push her on Benghazi, the illegal email sever, and many of her other lies. He has to keep it short and sweet...for example "You said you landed in Bosnia under sniper fire. That was a lie", and then leave her trying to explain it. He also needs solid answers when he is questioned. For example, when Hillary claimed that he was happy about the housing crisis, he simply should have responded "A good business person is ready for all scenarios."


----------



## SMK

Only one person looked presidential last night, and that was not the shouter. The shouting and multiple interruptions worked for Trudeau though.  

Trump could not keep it together, but it's true that everything in his campaign has been calculated, including last night's performance, in my opinion.


----------



## SMK

new dog said:


> Leading up to the debates and the way Clinton performed it does seem likely that she did have Pneumonia. Pneumonia can drain you and make you look like you are almost dead at times. I think her handlers and the media did let this get out of control by not coming clean on it and letting the alternative media run with it. In the debate Trump was drinking water and she didn't even reach for it once although I think she should have because drinking enough water is good for you.
> 
> On the CNN panel Trump had that blonde Kayleigh McEnany supporting him and he definitely gets the win here in my books. I wouldn't mind if she was on my side.
> 
> https://www.rawstory.com/2016/09/ka...ebate-he-reacts-the-way-average-people-react/


Clinton looked just fine, she'll be 69 next month. 

Trump needed the water more than Clinton to clear his throat after all the shouting he did.


----------



## Nelley

SMK said:


> Clinton looked just fine, she'll be 69 next month.
> 
> Trump needed the water more than Clinton to clear his throat after all the shouting he did.


Who are you trying to convince? Nobody is arguing with you. What you can't/won't understand is that Trump hasn't looked "Presidential" to you ever-he beat out a whole bunch of Repubs, every single one more Presidential. The guy totally winged it last night-was it a mistake-beats me-we will see.


----------



## TomB19

SMK said:


> Clinton looked just fine, she'll be 69 next month.
> 
> Trump needed the water more than Clinton to clear his throat after all the shouting he did.


Clinton was far more composed and poised, no doubt. Trump held his own, for the most part.


----------



## SMK

What's there to understand Nelley, he's never sounded presidential, he could have but chose not to. It worked to beat out the other Republicans that's true.

We will see if all the calculated moves will take him to 1600 or 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue as he joked last night.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Who are you trying to convince? Nobody is arguing with you. What you can't/won't understand is that Trump hasn't looked "Presidential" to you ever-he beat out a whole bunch of Repubs, every single one more Presidential. The guy totally winged it last night-was it a mistake-beats me-we will see.


I'm not sure what this means. You seem to be losing your composure.

To me, it reads: "Clinton will never beat Trump! Even when Clinton beats Trump, she will not beat him. I do not possess the inner strength to be objective because I can't stand the idea that my gut could be wrong. I like chicken. Am I double parked? Was that the phone? I'm expecting a call from Angelina Jolie."


----------



## TomB19

SMK said:


> What's there to understand Nelley, he's never sounded presidential, he could have but chose not to. It worked to beat out the other Republicans that's true.


I don't think anyone disputes that Trump has the racist xenophobe vote locked down.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I'm not sure what this means. You seem to be losing your composure.
> 
> To me, it reads: "Clinton will never beat Trump! Even when Clinton beats Trump, she will not beat him. I do not possess the inner strength to be objective because I can't stand the idea that my gut could be wrong. I like chicken. Am I double parked? Was that the phone? I'm expecting a call from Angelina Jolie."


You struggle with retaining information for whatever reason-I have never said Crooked Hillary cannot win-in fact I have never made a prediction on this one. I guess you are trying to be funny so I will give you points for that.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I don't think anyone disputes that Trump has the racist xenophobe vote locked down.


A lot of Trump's support is because of people in the MSM just like yourself-you guys have managed to make a guy with billions of dollars look like an outsider/underdog.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I don't think anyone disputes that Trump has the racist xenophobe vote locked down.


And yet the fact that the Democrats are more racist and have the most racist policies always escapes their supporters.


----------



## tygrus

Ahhh, Trump. What could have been. All you had to do was hold it together for an hr. You had a narrative in the first 20 minutes. Why didnt you stay on that? A politician needs tough skin I am afraid. Maybe its the new yorker in him that makes him combative over little things.


----------



## SMK

There are 2 more debates still, but I don't think the man can act or fake it, not even for 30 minutes, let alone 90. Because of Clinton's unpopularity, all Trump ever needed to do to win it all the way was work on the temperament; sadly it's all that would have taken for a victory, and probably a big one. So easy and yet so impossible for him.


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> I'm not sure what this means. You seem to be losing your composure.
> 
> To me, it reads: "Clinton will never beat Trump! Even when Clinton beats Trump, she will not beat him. I do not possess the inner strength to be objective because I can't stand the idea that my gut could be wrong. I like chicken. Am I double parked? Was that the phone? I'm expecting a call from Angelina Jolie."


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> And yet the fact that the Democrats are more racist and have the most racist policies always escapes their supporters.


Interesting point. In fact, Canadian fans of both candidates made the following argument in this very thread: "NAFTA has been a job creator for Mexico-no point in spinning it". 

Racism is probably too strong a word, but it's most certainly a nativist argument. In what world creation of jobs in Mexico is a bad thing??? Guess they are assuming that trade is a zero sum game, which of course it isn't. Sadly, both candidates push nativist arguments but Trump is the worst of all. 

Meanwhile, worldwide the trade is not growing as fast and, as a result, the growth is slowing down.


----------



## tygrus

I cant help but think that trump is still after a narrow loss. Why would he want the hassle of dealing with congress and other world leaders. Clinton has something else to prove as being the first woman president. 

I think trump is just sealing his brand now. He has created a percentage of the population that cherish his outsider status. He will be able to go on the speaking circuit forever, write some more books, leverage into his hotels and casinos, get endless tv time plus become a political insider. 

He used the farce of democracy and the media to elevate himself into the stratosphere. He may be the smartest man ever.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> And yet the fact that the Democrats are more racist and have the most racist policies always escapes their supporters.


Only in your bizzaro world.

Democrats are generally more inclusive of people. They have been well ahead of Republicans in terms of gay rights, immigration, poverty related issues, and everything related to diversity. Republicans have lead the charge for wealthy Americans and corporations.

... not that Democrats have covered themselves in glory. There is a strong movement from the left to enforce political correctness. When Jerry Seinfeld stops playing college campuses because they will freak out if a joke is not politically correct, that's a pretty clear red flag that things aren't entirely OK with self identified liberals.

Remember trans-vaginal ultra-sounds? Republicans literally legislated the insertion of an ultra-sound wand into women's bodies as a punitive effort. Republicans have been draconian on gay marriage, with a few exceptions. Republicans have literally regulated the bathrooms that transgendered people are allowed to use.

In short, your party doesn't have the moral authority to ask Hitler for a circumcision variance, never mind pretending Democrats are more racist than Republicans.

Go back to your fire and wheel. Hopefully, in time, you will learn to fashion sticks into tools.


----------



## bass player

Tom:

A black cop serving under a black police chief is defending a black neighborhood and is forced to shoot a black man with a criminal record who was carrying a stolen gun. Then, black people are allowed to riot and loot stores without being arrested because they are somehow "victims". After all, nothing says you are a victim more than breaking store windows and stealing from innocent people.

The Democrat response to all (including racist Obama) this is that this is due to "systematic racism". It's become that ridiculous. Obama invites racist Black Lies Matter thugs to the White House, but he doesn't invite the families of cops who were murdered by these racists. Please pull your head out of your arse and take a unbiased look at the facts instead of parroting the racist Democrat agenda.


----------



## TomB19

Black people are allowed to riot and loot? Are you high?


----------



## Nelley

So here we have both Mordko and TomB19 proclaiming their innate goodness-look at me-look at what a GOOD PERSON I am-Sorry-that dog don't hunt.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley may be lashing out because Hillary Clinton didn't faint during the debate. :sorrow:


----------



## DayTek

Convo with my husband this morning, hahaha...


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Nelley may be lashing out because Hillary Clinton didn't faint during the debate. :sorrow:


Whatever horse steroids they had Crooked Hillary on sure did the trick.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> Whatever horse steroids they had Crooked Hillary on sure did the trick.


She did look a little "medicated", and will probably need a week off to recover...


----------



## olivaw

Imagine if Hillary had sniffed and slurped the way Trump did at last nights debate ..... :barbershop_quartet_

BTW: Trump complained that his microphone was too soft.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Interesting point. In fact, Canadian fans of both candidates made the following argument in this very thread: "NAFTA has been a job creator for Mexico-no point in spinning it".
> 
> Racism is probably too strong a word, but it's most certainly a nativist argument. In what world creation of jobs in Mexico is a bad thing??? Guess they are assuming that trade is a zero sum game, which of course it isn't. Sadly, both candidates push nativist arguments but Trump is the worst of all.
> 
> Meanwhile, worldwide the trade is not growing as fast and, as a result, the growth is slowing down.


How is a simple observation racism or "nativism"-I didn't even say I was against jobs going to Mexico-Mordko you are such a PC pansy it is affecting your reading comprehension.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Imagine if Hillary had sniffed and slurped the way Trump did at last nights debate ..... :barbershop_quartet_
> 
> BTW: Trump complained that his microphone was too soft.


Imagine if Trump had collapsed at a 9-11 memorial service and his people tried to cover it up, and then once caught on amateur video, they couldn't keep the story straight.

Imagine if Trump was facing a taller opponent in the debate and demanded a stepstool to appear taller.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Imagine if Trump had collapsed at a 9-11 memorial service and his people tried to cover it up, and then once caught on amateur video, they couldn't keep the story straight.
> 
> Imagine if Trump was facing a taller opponent in the debate and demanded a stepstool to appear taller.


How did the stepstool cause Trump to come unglued during the debate?


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> How did the stepstool cause Trump to come unglued during the debate?


I didn't say that the step stool caused anything.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> How did the stepstool cause Trump to come unglued during the debate?


Were you triggered by the scary man?


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> I didn't say that the step stool caused anything.


Then why bring it up? 

Clinton danced a little jig after Trump dug himself into a hole last night. Why haven't you and Dr. Sock Puppet claimed it was a seizure yet? :saturn:


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Then why bring it up?


Because it shows her attempt to deceive people.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Then why bring it up?
> 
> Clinton danced a little jig after Trump dug himself into a hole last night. Why haven't you and Dr. Sock Puppet claimed it was a seizure yet? :saturn:


Congratulations-your criminal managed to participate in a 90 minute debate-quite the accomplishment.


----------



## olivaw

The step stool was reported by Drudge, Zero Hedge, Daily Mirror and a bunch of right wing blogs. 

Those who don't live in their right wing misinformation bubble see the energy that goes into such trivia and fear for the future of humanity. :topsy_turvy:


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> So here we have both Mordko and TomB19 proclaiming their innate goodness-look at me-look at what a GOOD PERSON I am-Sorry-that dog don't hunt.


"Innate goodness"? lol!

I don't know about that but when it comes to not wanting to ram objects into the vagina of women who have a different belief system, not wanting to keep out specific ethnicities or religions, not wanting to tell people who they can marry, not wanting to tell people who they can have sex with, yeah... we are moral rock stars compared to the Republican base.

I have no interest in the orgasms of others, although I do like to watch on occasion. So,.... each to their own.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Congratulations-your criminal managed to participate in a 90 minute debate-quite the accomplishment.


My favorite tweet from the debate was a single word: "Hitlary"

lol!


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> "Innate goodness"? lol!
> 
> I don't know about that but when it comes to not wanting to ram objects into the vagina of women who have a different belief system, not wanting to keep out specific ethnicities or religions, not wanting to tell people who they can marry, not wanting to tell people who they can have sex with, yeah... we are moral rock stars compared to the Republican base.
> 
> I have no interest in the orgasms of others, although I do like to watch on occasion. So,.... each to their own.


If that is who you think the average Republican is I would hate to hear your opinion of the average Muslim or Sikh.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Congratulations-your criminal managed to participate in a 90 minute debate-quite the accomplishment.


As did yours - except yours was sniffing like an addict. Diagnosis?


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> As did yours - except yours was sniffing like an addict. Diagnosis?


The fact is, Trump is a barely functional coke addict. That's why he has been embezzling money for years from every corporation he has ever been associated with. He just hasn't been caught, yet.




So you see, Nelley, that is how retarded you sound. No disrespect to the mentally handicapped intended.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> As did yours - except yours was sniffing like an addict. Diagnosis?


Just another nutbar left wing conspiracy?? Or perhaps he has one of those 12-month long "allergies" that Hillary suffers from?


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> If that is who you think the average Republican is I would hate to hear your opinion of the average Muslim or Sikh.


Trans-vaginal ultra sounds, bathroom laws, anti-gay marriage laws, etc... are policies that have been brought forward by the Republican party you so blindly defend.

I can understand why you are in denial. It's a lot to deal with. That kind of hate and bullying is going to be difficult to reconcile. I recommend you take some time for topical introspection and have someone available for support, in case you need it.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Trans-vaginal ultra sounds, bathroom laws, anti-gay marriage laws, etc... are policies that have been brought forward by the Republican party you so blindly defend.
> 
> I can understand why you are in denial. It's a lot to deal with. That kind of hate and bullying is going to be difficult to reconcile. I recommend you take some time for topical introspection and have someone available for support, in case you need it.


I am not blindly defending anyone and I am not a Republican-I am making the simple observation that you talk like a racist.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> I am making the simple observation that you talk like a racist.


I have no doubt that you are a white male.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I can understand why you are in denial. It's a lot to deal with. That kind of hate and bullying is going to be difficult to reconcile. I recommend you take some time for topical introspection and have someone available for support, in case you need it.


Black Lies Matter chant "Kill the cops" and Obama invites them to the White House. So, yes, that sort of racist hate needs to be stopped.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Just another nutbar left wing conspiracy?? Or perhaps he has one of those 12-month long "allergies" that Hillary suffers from?


OMG OMG OMG, you said _conspiracy_. Tom must be right about Trump cocaine addiction. (Dances the jig like Hillary during the debate).


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> I have no doubt that you are a white male.


Don't be sexist Tom. Nowadays a woman can be a fake Internet doctor too.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I have no doubt that you are a white male.


Like I just said-thank god you are weak-you have a lot of hate.


----------



## sags

In the many close individual state races, any mistakes can be crucial. 

Trump's performance at the debate questioned his leadership ability.


----------



## olivaw

Fivethirtyeight's Nate Silver says that a debate win can give the winning candidate a 3-4 point bump but the bump may prove temporary. 

*Clinton Won The Debate, Which Means She’s Likely To Gain In The Polls*


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Black Lies Matter chant "Kill the cops" and Obama invites them to the White House. So, yes, that sort of racist hate needs to be stopped.


bass, defining an entire ethnicity by the chants of a few people literally defines racism. We agree, the hate needs to stop. Start with yourself.

Cops shouldn't shoot unarmed black males. Civilians should not shoot cops. The moral foundation of this situation isn't that tough to figure out.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Trump's performance at the debate questioned his leadership ability.


I thought he did OK.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> bass, defining an entire ethnicity by the chants of a few people literally defines racism. We agree, the hate needs to stop. Start with yourself


I don't hate any race, so don't make false accusations. What I do see is a lot of people crying "systematic racism" when nothing of the sort exists. Those are the people I am referring to. That doesn't make me racist. It also doesn't make me racist to point out that Obama is a racist.



TomB19 said:


> Cops shouldn't shoot unarmed black males.


Of course not. No one is suggesting otherwise But, too many times the "unarmed black male", was in fact "armed" and we are fed lies that say he wasn't armed.


----------



## olivaw

Electionbettingodds.com uses wagers to determine the probability of the election outcome. On the day after the debate, here is how they look:

Clinton victory - 68.7% (up 6% in the last day)
Trump victory - 29.6% (down 5.5%).

The percentages reflect gambling payouts, not statistical analysis. FWIW.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> The media "fact checkers" somehow missed that. And, of course, they also "missed" that Blumenthal was the original birther. They sure seem to miss a lot of inconvenient facts about Hillary.


Does Trump have any agency? Trump was riding the birther lie for 8 years. He is the primary proponent of the theory.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> As a sporting event IMO Crooked Hillary won, but the reality is that only her supporters actually bought any of that stuff she was selling-I thought her style was good but the substance made no logical sense at all so IMO these debates are basically entertainment if anything.


I agree, I thought Trump's commentary on "the cyber" and "the nuclear" was cogent and insightful. It's "the biggest".

Honestly, Trump just flaps his mouth and grunts but almost nothing resembling thought seems to come out.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Does Trump have any agency? Trump was riding the birther lie for 8 years. He is the primary proponent of the theory.


Wrong. It was Blumenthal. You've been reading too many MSM lies.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Interesting point. In fact, Canadian fans of both candidates made the following argument in this very thread: "NAFTA has been a job creator for Mexico-no point in spinning it".
> 
> Racism is probably too strong a word, but it's most certainly a nativist argument. In what world creation of jobs in Mexico is a bad thing??? Guess they are assuming that trade is a zero sum game, which of course it isn't. Sadly, both candidates push nativist arguments but Trump is the worst of all.
> 
> Meanwhile, worldwide the trade is not growing as fast and, as a result, the growth is slowing down.


I am supportive of freer trade. I think Canada has, on balance, done well out of NAFTA. It's not all about jobs, we also are able to buy goods more cheaply and easily. 

And I'll agree. Mexicans & Chinese probably need the incremental income more than middle-class people in Canada need the granite counter-top, Florida vacation, or leather seats in their RAV4. The sickest thing are people who are arguing against trade with the poorest countries like Bangladesh. They would rather deny desperately poor people the chance to earn an income.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Does Trump have any agency? Trump was riding the birther lie for 8 years. He is the primary proponent of the theory.


Sheep: You don't know where Obama was born-neither do I or anyone else on this forum.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Wrong. It was Blumenthal. You've been reading too many MSM lies.


It was Blumenthal that held press conferences demanding to see the birth certificate? Also Blumenthal that sent a crack team of investigators to Hawaii to find "interesting things... amazing things..." You are not living in reality.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> I am supportive of freer trade. I think Canada has, on balance, done well out of NAFTA. It's not all about jobs, we also are able to buy goods more cheaply and easily.
> 
> And I'll agree. Mexicans & Chinese probably need the incremental income more than middle-class people in Canada need the granite counter-top, Florida vacation, or leather seats in their RAV4. The sickest thing are people who are arguing against trade with the poorest countries like Bangladesh. They would rather deny desperately poor people the chance to earn an income.


Oh brother-you would gladly sell out Canada and every single person in it if you could get an extra nickel out of it-and you also need praise for your greed?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Sheep: You don't know where Obama was born-neither do I or anyone else on this forum.


Trump seems to believe that Obama was born in the US (or so he says). I don't care either way.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Trump seems to believe that Obama was born in the US (or so he says). I don't care either way.


He doesn't want to give ammunition to the corrupt MSM.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Oh brother-you would gladly sell out Canada and every single person in it if you could get an extra nickel out of it-and you also need praise for your greed?


No, I think Mexicans and Chinese are humans, too. My moral calculus says that a Chinese kid getting the chance to go to school is better than a Canadian getting granite counters. Even if that Canadian is me.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> He doesn't want to give ammunition to the corrupt MSM.


So Trump is a liar?


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> So Trump is a liar?


Lying to corrupt pieces of garbage is OK in my book-in fact I encourage all good persons to do the same.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Like I just said-thank god you are weak-you have a lot of hate.


I've noticed the Republican modus operandi seems to be accusing others of their own crimes. For example, the fire and brimstone anti-gay lectures that take place in various legislatures and the house are pretty much always followed by discovery the lecturer has been having gay trysts.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Lying to corrupt pieces of garbage is OK in my book-in fact I encourage all good persons to do the same.


People with sound morals do not make a practice of lying.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Lying to corrupt pieces of garbage is OK in my book-in fact I encourage all good persons to do the same.


So the media industry is made up of corrupt pieces of garbage, not human beings with families to feed in your view.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I've noticed the Republican modus operandi seems to be accusing others of their own crimes. For example, the fire and brimstone anti-gay lectures that take place in various legislatures and the house are pretty much always followed by discovery the lecturer has been having gay trysts.


A great many women have publicly accused Crooked Hillary of physical intimidation, death threats, the killing of pets, etc.etc. and she talks about Trump and fat women. Is that the modus operandi?


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> A great many women have publicly accused Crooked Hillary of physical intimidation, death threats, the killing of pets, etc.etc. and she talks about Trump and fat women. Is that the modus operandi?


A great many?

How about some audio recordings and police involvement? Is any of this corroborated?

Without corroboration, it's just mindless slander, exactly like you are doing. Anyone can make up hateful things about their opponent and try to prosecute them. It's more difficult to demonstrate something is wrong because it involves the use of facts and demonstrable truths.

I can say all sort of terrible things about you but if I knew you were doing something illegal, like killing pets, etc., etc., I would collect evidence and call the police. At that point, you would be open for conviction and then you would be on record as being a pet killer, etc. Until then, it's just someone droning on. Laws of evidence and the entire legal system is designed to keep people like you from smearing others. I mean, look at everything you've written. There's hardly a truth mixed in with the hate.


----------



## TomB19

Lying Nelley said:


> He doesn't want to give ammunition to the corrupt MSM.


There is no excuse for lying.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Lying to corrupt pieces of garbage is OK in my book-in fact I encourage all good persons to do the same.


So the American public are corrupt pieces of garbage? He told the American public that Obama was born in the US.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> So the American public are corrupt pieces of garbage? He told the American public that Obama was born in the US.


The American public didn't ask him this question-the MSM that feeds you daily did.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> The American public didn't ask him this question-the MSM that feeds you daily did.


It doesn't matter...they simply spin it so that someone can be insulted.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> It doesn't matter...they simply spin it so that someone can be insulted.


You said it-they are outraged that Trump is tired of talking about where this idiot was born.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> You said it-they are outraged that Trump is tired of talking about where this idiot was born.


If you can't get offended at nothing, then you won't make a good progressive...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Going to a candidates' debate

Laugh about it, shout about it, when you've got to choose

Every way you look at it you lose


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvMFm5nKeUc


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Going to a candidates' debate
> 
> Laugh about it, shout about it, when you've got to choose
> 
> Every way you look at it you lose
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvMFm5nKeUc


Nothing changes in 45 years https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> The American public didn't ask him this question-the MSM that feeds you daily did.


Don't you mean the Lame Scream Tedia?

Since Trump will only ever be speaking to the broader public through intermediaries like the media, we can conclude that he is lying at will? Got it.


----------



## new dog

The birth thing is a really stupid issue and I am glad Trump finally set it aside. I feel however he left it out there far to long and should have settled, got over it or whatever a long time ago.

Only in US politics something like this would linger around for such a stupid, ridiculous long length of time.

On the other issues like taxes or whatever garbage they think they have on Trump he should just come clean on it and address it. Again however it has gone on to long and may be to late to do anything about it.

Hillary however can't come clean because she would go to jail and must keep it under wraps.


----------



## olivaw

Going back to an earlier discussion about the impact of the debate ....

Dennis J. Goldford, professor and chair of political science at Drake University writes in _Fortune_ that Clinton won the debate but it may not matter. It may change the media narrative for a while but first debate performance doesn't predict the outcome of the election.


----------



## bass player

People have short memories, so it also could be that Trump is saving the best digs at Hillary for a later debate. He left far too much unsaid this time...things like The Clinton Foundation and Benghazi were not even mentioned.


----------



## olivaw

If Trump brings up the Clinton Foundation, it would open him up to discussion about the Trump Foundation. Of the two, I think Clinton is in the stronger position in that discussion. 

Benghazi is old news but Trump will try to use it. That's more for the base than undecided and moderate voters. 

From what I can see, Trump is threatening to bring up Bill Clinton's infidelity in the 80s and 90s. It would be interesting to see the result of that gambit. He has all-but-raised it in the post debate interview so he's trying to use it without coming right out and saying it on the debate stage.


----------



## tygrus

Hilary clearly commanded the debate, especially after the first 30 minutes, but Trump maybe had another tactic. He had to show he could take as well as he could give and not lose his mind over it. Seems like that was accomplished. He may have been rambling and a little off base at times, but he didnt explode. For him thats a win. And I think Hilary used up all her ammo on the first night. She wont be able to make the same points stick again. While trump barely scratched her record. This isnt over by a long shot.


----------



## bass player

All they have on the Trump Foundation is a couple inappropriate purchases and payments, whereas the Clinton Foundation has received millions from countries that appear to have received favours from Hillary.

Benghazi is old news, but it still matters because it's a snapshot of how Hillary operates.

And, we can't forget that there will likely be another WikiLeaks that will not be kind to Hillary.


----------



## Nelley

The thing is-Crooked Hillary looked pretty smooth and presentable-which is why many pundits are saying she "won" the debate. I thought she "won"-but I don't remember one single thing she said about her plans because it all sounded like generic mush. It sounded like nonsense written by a generic PC consultant. Does anyone remember one thing she said? So IMO since the purpose was to sway voters I don't think it did much.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I got a kick out of the "birther" thing. The biggest laugh was when Obama presented the world with a birth certificate from Hawaii, signed " U. K. Lelee". I thought that was a good one.


----------



## mordko

Incidentally... Why was Trump making a funny noise early on? It was like he had a cold and kept sucking up his snot.


----------



## olivaw

In the first debate, Clinton accepted the attacks on her email server and apologized. The attack seemed to have fizzled after that.

Trump's strategy seemed to be to deny or to deflect but neither worked. Deflection appeals to the base, but the base is always outraged by allegations against the opposing candidate and dismissive of allegations against their own.

He may well do better in the second debate but I think that he needs to do more than memorize lines about Benghazzi and Clinton Foundation. Clinton will be too well prepared to let them rattle her. 

Some left wing sources complained that Clinton didn't go after Trump enough. IMO, that is just the base talking too.


----------



## olivaw

tygrus said:


> Hilary clearly commanded the debate, especially after the first 30 minutes, but Trump maybe had another tactic. He had to show he could take as well as he could give and not lose his mind over it. Seems like that was accomplished. He may have been rambling and a little off base at times, but he didnt explode. For him thats a win. And I think Hilary used up all her ammo on the first night. She wont be able to make the same points stick again. While trump barely scratched her record. This isnt over by a long shot.


Hmmm, you seem to be suggesting that Trump did well by virtue of not running from the stage in tears. 

It's certainly not over but I don't think that Trump accomplished what he set out to do in the first debate. If Trump loses the election, clips from this debate will be played in the debate highlight reels for years to come.


----------



## sags

I am agreeing with those who say it doesn't matter because nothing will change.

My only fear is Trump near the war button. If he wins.......they should hide the codes.

There will be a revolution in the US...........but a billionaire like Trump isn't the person to lead it.


----------



## sags

Anyone else notice the veiled threat that Clinton sent to Putin in the debate ?

She said the US has far more capability than Russia or China on computer hacking...........if that is the game they want to play.

It was the NSA who developed the most effective hacking tools.......and I am sure they left themselves a back door entry.

Imagine the panic in Russia or China if all their defense systems suddenly went dark.

Hello.............hello..........is anyone there ?


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> I am agreeing with those who say it doesn't matter because nothing will change.
> 
> My only fear is Trump near the war button. If he wins.......they should hide the codes.
> 
> There will be a revolution in the US...........but a billionaire like Trump isn't the person to lead it.


I think there are tons of checks in place for this. Nixon had the codes too and so did Ronnie and he had Alzheimers. GWB has a grade 8 education and had them too. 

Besides, if trump follows through and brings the troops and drones home and stops getting into foreign wars, maybe that might ratchet the tension down in the world a bit and the codes would be unlikely to ever be used. Every think about that?


----------



## olivaw

There are no legal checks on the president's power to order a nuclear strike. 


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/orde...d-the-risks-of-a-hair-trigger-nuclear-button/


----------



## tygrus

olivaw said:


> There are no legal checks on the president's power to order a nuclear strike.


No legal checks but lots of internal military checks. Trump doesn't physically press the button. Lots of time for advisors to step in including the military. No 1st world nation would ever launch a strike unless struck first.


----------



## olivaw

The president is the highest authority in the US military. It is possible that the generals or commanders would refuse Trump's orders but it is not a formal check against the use of nuclear military resources. 

Whether or not Trump is temperamentally fit to command the most powerful military arsenal in the history of the world is a different discussion.


----------



## sags

Obama entered office in 2008 pledging to renounce the US "first strike" policy but has never changed it.

Now that he wants to leave a legacy, he has revived the commitment, but has almost no support even from his own party or administration.

It appears the US will continue to maintain the option to strike first.

US military commanders would have to mutiny to refuse to follow the President's orders to launch.

Interesting to note also............the US nuclear triad is not in entirely great shape.

The missile silos have deteriorated over decades, leak water and some suspect that many may fail to launch.

The US has pledged to spend billions upgrading the launch silos.

The main options would be bomber and submarine launches.

If the worst should come to pass............remember the plan.

Kneel down, bend over and kiss your arse goodbye.


----------



## sags

tygrus said:


> No legal checks but lots of internal military checks. Trump doesn't physically press the button. Lots of time for advisors to step in including the military. No 1st world nation would ever launch a strike unless struck first.


From what I have read a launch could be completed within a couple of minutes.

The President "can" confer with others, but isn't obligated to do so. The President can confer and then choose to ignore the advice.

The President has virtually unlimited control over the nuclear launch codes and ordering an attack.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with Trump having that much power. We have seen how angry he gets over mundane attacks on his ego.

I remember when Ronald Reagan was giving an interview and the microphone was left on while he mused about attacking Russia.

Those comments in jest caused a big kerfluffle. Nuclear war is nothing to joke about.

Is there any scenario where all out nuclear war would be survivable ? Would there be winners and losers ?

It would pretty much be committing the mass suicide of all mankind.


----------



## tygrus

The president just cant wake up one day and say nuke NK because Kim Jong called him an SOB or whatever. There are enough checks and balances in the system to ensure its a tactical military strike, not just a personal vendetta. You think the nuclear arsenal is that easy to launch?


----------



## TomB19

I do.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Anyone else notice the veiled threat that Clinton sent to Putin in the debate ?
> 
> She said the US has far more capability than Russia or China on computer hacking...........if that is the game they want to play.
> 
> It was the NSA who developed the most effective hacking tools.......and I am sure they left themselves a back door entry.
> 
> Imagine the panic in Russia or China if all their defense systems suddenly went dark.
> 
> Hello.............hello..........is anyone there ?



She is also scary suggesting something stupid like this. If those countries with all their nukes went blank who knows what will happen. The bottom line is no matter how advanced the US is no one is winning a nuclear war on any side.


----------



## olivaw

There are *no checks and balances* on the president's authority to launch one or more of America's 1,538 nuclear assets. 

Trump:
- has said that he would fire senior military advisers and generals
- is open to Japan, South Korea and Saudi Arabia having nuclear weapons
- has refused to rule out using nuclear weapons in the fight against ISIS
- didn't know what the "nuclear triad" means during the Republican primaries

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## Eder

Seriously ... if Pakistan and North Korea have nukes who cares who else has them...maybe the mid east will solve their own problems then.


----------



## andrewf

tygrus said:


> Hilary clearly commanded the debate, especially after the first 30 minutes, but Trump maybe had another tactic. He had to show he could take as well as he could give and not lose his mind over it. Seems like that was accomplished. He may have been rambling and a little off base at times, but he didnt explode. For him thats a win. And I think Hilary used up all her ammo on the first night. She wont be able to make the same points stick again. While trump barely scratched her record. This isnt over by a long shot.


Other than him whining in the background while Hillary was talking ("wrong... wrong...") during the 2 minute initial statements.


----------



## andrewf

tygrus said:


> The president just cant wake up one day and say nuke NK because Kim Jong called him an SOB or whatever. There are enough checks and balances in the system to ensure its a tactical military strike, not just a personal vendetta. You think the nuclear arsenal is that easy to launch?


The President is the commander in chief and he issues orders, not requests. If you're trusting there to be checks and balances on Trump's access to the US' nuclear arsenal, you are asking for the US military to commit treason and a coup.


----------



## sags

Joe Biden has still got his mojo working..............


----------



## andrewf

tygrus said:


> I think there are tons of checks in place for this. Nixon had the codes too and so did Ronnie and he had Alzheimers. GWB has a grade 8 education and had them too.
> 
> Besides, if trump follows through and brings the troops and drones home and stops getting into foreign wars, maybe that might ratchet the tension down in the world a bit and the codes would be unlikely to ever be used. Every think about that?


GWB did not (just) have a Grade 8 education. He graduated from Harvard Business School and Yale.


----------



## sags

Eder said:


> Seriously ... if Pakistan and North Korea have nukes who cares who else has them...maybe the mid east will solve their own problems then.


At least until one of them gets packed onto a ship and nestles into New York harbour ?


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> Joe Biden has still got his mojo working..............


Wow- great speech!


----------



## sags

Trump's poor debate performance, and his particularly bad comments are going to be fodder for the Clinton campaign for weeks to come.

Trump is destroying any chance he has of winning with his own words, which unfortunately for him reveal the shallowest of moral character.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> Joe Biden has still got his mojo working..............
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbtAGvLdAdg


What a powerful speech. It's definitely worth watching.


----------



## james4beach

These debates and endorsements are unfortunately legitimizing Trump, who in my mind, is still a bat **** crazy, dangerous racist and anti-semite

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/07/donald-trumps-love-affair-white-supremacists

* Trump re-tweets material from white supremacists including an antisemitic Star of David graphic
* Trump has repeatedly endorsed propaganda from neo Nazi / KKK movement: "white genocide"

The fact that this doesn't deter 50% of the popular vote tells you something very important about the USA.


----------



## sags

Some definitions of irony, which apparently Trump is unaware of.

Trump continually interrupting Clinton to scream about his even temperament, while she patiently waits for the rant to end.

Trump bragging about earning $650 million last year, while advocating for tax cuts for the rich, when he doesn't even pay taxes.


----------



## james4beach

From Biden's speech: "*I've been there for 8 presidents, Democrat and Republican... Every president I have served with, including the Republicans, has had a moral center about what it was to be an American. About what we're supposed to do, what basic fundamental rights are... [Trump] does not have the basic sensibilities and values that every politician, left right and center, has had.*"


----------



## sags

Trump threatens to attack Clinton on Bill Clinton's affairs and the Clinton Foundation.

Glass houses Donald, glass houses. Be careful where you step.


----------



## olivaw

Never in its 126-year history has The Arizona Republic editorial board endorsed a Democratic presidential candidate over a Republican. This year it is endorsing the Democratic candidate: Hillary Clinton. 
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/editorial/2016/09/27/hillary-clinton-endorsement/91198668/


> Since The Arizona Republic began publication in 1890, we have never endorsed a Democrat over a Republican for president. Never. This reflects a deep philosophical appreciation for conservative ideals and Republican principles.
> 
> This year is different.
> 
> The 2016 Republican candidate is not conservative and he is not qualified.
> 
> That’s why, for the first time in our history, The Arizona Republic will support a Democrat for president.





> Contrast Clinton’s tenacity and professionalism with Trump, who began his campaign with gross generalities about Mexico and Mexicans as criminals and rapists. These were careless slaps at a valued trading partner and Arizona’s neighbor. They were thoughtless insults about people whose labor and energy enrich our country.


This is one in a long string of Republican endorsements for Clinton. Expect a steady stream of them over the next 41 days.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> These debates and endorsements are unfortunately legitimizing Trump, who in my mind, is still a bat **** crazy, dangerous racist and anti-semite
> 
> http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/07/donald-trumps-love-affair-white-supremacists
> 
> * Trump re-tweets material from white supremacists including an antisemitic Star of David graphic
> * Trump has repeatedly endorsed propaganda from neo Nazi / KKK movement: "white genocide"
> 
> The fact that this doesn't deter 50% of the popular vote tells you something very important about the USA.


If you hate Americans and hate the USA so badly, stay away from the USA-they don't need you.


----------



## bass player

james4beach said:


> From Biden's speech: "*I've been there for 8 presidents, Democrat and Republican... Every president I have served with, including the Republicans, has had a moral center about what it was to be an American. About what we're supposed to do, what basic fundamental rights are... [Trump] does not have the basic sensibilities and values that every politician, left right and center, has had.*"


How come his list includes America hating Obama?


----------



## bass player

The US lost people in Benghazi due to Hillary not being able to respond to requests for help for several hours. What happens if North Korean (or other) sends nukes to North America and Hillary is passed out face down again and unable to make a decision?


----------



## new dog

From what we all know to date is Hillary and Trump will make the worst presidents ever. Trump has some good ideas, like not letting immigrants destroy the country like what has happened in Europe and Sweden and so on. He also has some other ideas but it isn't enough to overcome all the other stuff he talks about, if we can truly understand what that is. Hillary could destroy the US bringing in ISIS and other garbage through immigration, signing the TPP and finishing off the US financially, although this will probably happen anyway with all the debt out there.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> The US lost people in Benghazi due to Hillary not being able to respond to requests for help for several hours. What happens if North Korean (or other) sends nukes to North America and Hillary is passed out face down again and unable to make a decision?


When a President is unable to perform their duties, the Vice President immediately assumes all responsibilities.

It has happened several times in US history, during the Lincoln and JFK assassinations, and when Reagan underwent surgery.

Hence why Hillary Clinton said her first priority in appointing a Vice President was to select someone who was immediately capable.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> From what we all know to date is Hillary and Trump will make the worst presidents ever. Trump has some good ideas, like not letting immigrants destroy the country like what has happened in Europe and Sweden and so on. He also has some other ideas but it isn't enough to overcome all the other stuff he talks about, if we can truly understand what that is. Hillary could destroy the US bringing in ISIS and other garbage through immigration, signing the TPP and finishing off the US financially, although this will probably happen anyway with all the debt out there.


People don't understand how deficit spending works-Obama DOUBLED the debt in 8 years-no matter who wins this job the task to right the ship is monumental-same as in Canada.


----------



## sags

Every sovereign nation increased their debt to climb out of the worst recession since the Great Depression.

The recovery has been slow, but without the intervention of governments the global financial system would have collapsed.

What some people don't understand is what *that scenario* would have looked like.

The US owes the most sovereign debt of any country, but they also have the largest capacity to service their debt.

The US owns 29.05% of the debt, while Greece owns 0.71%.......but Greece struggles to service their debt due to a small economy and lack of efficient tax collection. Canada owns 2.7% of the debt and has the capacity to service it, reduce it, or stabilize it and let the normal affects of inflation reduce the cost of servicing it over time.

A debt of $15000 was onerous 50 years ago, when homes cost $15,000. Today a mortgage of $15,000 would be nothing.

View attachment 11786


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> People don't understand how deficit spending works-Obama DOUBLED the debt in 8 years-no matter who wins this job the task to right the ship is monumental-same as in Canada.


W Bush also doubled the debt. Difference is he did it during an economic boom. Obama did it while the economy was coming out of the deepest recession since the great depression.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> W Bush also doubled the debt. Difference is he did it during an economic boom. Obama did it while the economy was coming out of the deepest recession since the great depression.


Bush was 1.78, not 2.00 but that is not even the point-any Ponzi becomes more difficult to maintain the larger it grows-I assume you are confident the USA can double the debt every 8 years forever without a problem. Whatever.


----------



## sags

Interesting that for the first time in our lives, we feel like we are treading water financially.

Even when we were buying homes at interest rates of 19% or more, our wages were continually rising and the servicing of our mortgage got a little easier with every wage increase. The % of our income towards the mortgage and other fixed debts continued to fall over the course of time.

In today's world of stagnant wages, every slight bump in the price of something increases the hardship for people to service their fixed debts.

I suppose that is why the Fed and governments are so focused on trying to create some inflation...........especially wage inflation.

People feel good when they have a few extra dollars to spend each month. They feel bad when they have a few less.

As seniors, even with the indexed government benefits and CPP, the increases are less than the abnormally low increase in wages, so seniors fall further behind.

We are fortunate that we have our own private pensions, but many seniors we know and live around us are living solely on government benefits and dwindling savings.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> The birth thing is a really stupid issue and I am glad Trump finally set it aside. I feel however he left it out there far to long and should have settled, got over it or whatever a long time ago.
> 
> Only in US politics something like this would linger around for such a stupid, ridiculous long length of time.
> 
> On the other issues like taxes or whatever garbage they think they have on Trump he should just come clean on it and address it. Again however it has gone on to long and may be to late to do anything about it.
> 
> Hillary however can't come clean because she would go to jail and must keep it under wraps.


The supposed "unbiased" moderator brings up the birther issue and hammers Trump on it repeatedly, but he completely ignores Benghazi, The Clinton Foundation, and Hillary's health, and only makes a token mention of the email fraud.

Hillary also looked like she was reading from a script, so it's obvious that she knew the questions beforehand and was simply reciting a memorized response.

All the debate did was prove to many without a doubt that the media fix is in.


----------



## TomB19

lol! 

Any time Hillary looks good, it has to be fixed. That is not the most objective hypothesis I've read.


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> W Bush also doubled the debt. Difference is he did it during an economic boom. Obama did it while the economy was coming out of the deepest recession since the great depression.


Things were reckless during the Dubya tenure but congress had a big hand in that wild overspend. There's nothing like watching drunken sailors run an economy into the ground and then blame it on the next guy.


----------



## mordko

In general, debt is OK if you are getting a good return. The debt has risen as a result of Reagan tax cuts, but the economy has grown tremendously as a result of the same tax cuts. It was great business.

Under Obama the economy hasn't grown for 8 years. That's the difference.


----------



## bass player

Some people will hate the source, but this article does a good job explaining the different types of US debt and what lies ahead:

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/09/millennials_and_the_obama_legacy.html


----------



## bass player

"Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton failed to complete the highest level of security training mandated by the Department of State for the proper handling of the government’s most secret documents when she entered the department in 2009, according to documents obtained by The Daily Caller News Foundation under the Freedom of Information Act.

Retired Col. Jim Waurishuk, who oversaw security protocols as deputy director for intelligence at the U.S. Central Command and served on the White House National Security Council staff, told TheDCNF it was difficult to believe Clinton did not complete the critical SCI- level of security training.

“It’s hard to believe, particularly as it was her first year in office as Secretary of State,” he said. “The standard process is you will get all your security indoctrination done immediately upon taking office,” he said. “I don’t care if you’re a GS-1 or a private or a four-star general or President of the United States. You’re going to go through your security indoctrination, particularly in the position of Secretary of State.”

But Waurishuk said people who refuse SCI training, including Clinton, should have their security clearances revoked.

“Technically, if you don’t do (the SCI training) for people at my level, they can pull your clearance,” said Waurishuk. “There’s a level of responsibility, trustworthiness and your integrity that comes into play here,” he said.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/27/e...training-at-state-dept-in-2009/#ixzz4LZB970oo


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Under Obama the economy hasn't grown for 8 years. That's the difference.


Ridiculous.

If Republicans had inherited the economy in 2009, they would have advocated heavy spending. Of course, they would have advocated giving the money to corporations for them to invest in other countries. At least, partly.

Cessation of spending in 2009 would have been a game ender. We've seen countries implode but not on the scale that would have happened.

In fact, it was Dubya who said, "If money isn’t loosened up, this sucker could go down."

... and yet Republicans did everything they could to block stimulus and shut down government at every opportunity.

... but I get it. If a Republican had been president and Democrats had been in control of congress, we would have seen Democrats grouching about spending, also. Perhaps to not nearly the same extent, but everyone wants to defund the other guy's programs. It's basic politics.


----------



## mordko

^ Republicans and democrats share the blame for the past. Bill Clinton's administration was directly responsible for setting up conditions for the housing crises in 2008 by forcing Fannae Mai to lend to people who couldn't afford to borrow. Subsequently, in 2005, Senate democrats blocked the legislation designed to correct the problem. And yes, the Bush administration did not achieve a sustained growth considering the money they spent. They also allowed the nanny-state to grow.

Still, what is ridiculous is blaming 8 years of stagnation exclusively on the government which preceded the current administration.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> ^ Republicans and democrats share the blame for the past. Bill Clinton's administration was directly responsible for setting up conditions for the housing crises in 2008 by forcing Fannae Mai to lend to people who couldn't afford to borrow.


That's a myopic view of history. Clinton did not cause the housing bubble.

It's too bad this clip is hosted by the YoungTurks. These clowns are partisan Democrat hacks but the Bush clip portion of this video is valid.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> Things were reckless during the Dubya tenure but congress had a big hand in that wild overspend. There's nothing like watching drunken sailors run an economy into the ground and then blame it on the next guy.


Don't insult drunken sailors. They stop when they run out of money.


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> That's a myopic view of history. Clinton did not cause the housing bubble.
> 
> It's too bad this clip is hosted by the YoungTurks. These clowns are partisan Democrat hacks but the Bush clip portion of this video is valid.


Not single handedly. Still, Clintons policy to promote irresponsible lending to people in deprived areas without down payment or proof of ability to repay was the root cause of what followed.


----------



## mordko

Here is the good news... Poor people get free money. Blessed be the Clinton administration.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/business/fannie-mae-eases-credit-to-aid-mortgage-lending.html?_r=0


----------



## mordko

And in 2002 the Bush administration tried to introduce controls on irresponsible lending by Fannae Mae but the Democratic Congress killed it so that people with bad credit can own homes.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Bush was 1.78, not 2.00 but that is not even the point-any Ponzi becomes more difficult to maintain the larger it grows-I assume you are confident the USA can double the debt every 8 years forever without a problem. Whatever.


Why would you assume that?

The relevant measure is debt:GDP. Absolute numbers are meaningless. The US' debt to GDP ratio has risen, and that is not sustainable.


----------



## TomB19

So... Clinton signed a policy designed to extend credit further down on the economic spectrum, Bush pours gasoline on that fire, and you blame Clinton exclusively? Really?

I just posted a video of Dubya himself saying the government is going to give people downpayments. If someone can't manage to save a down payment, giving it to them is not a good idea. The idea of no income, no asset mortgages is pretty ridiculous.

If you want to increase home ownership, it makes way more sense to give a mortgage to someone who can save a down payment but would not quite qualify for a mortgage under more restrictive rules. This way is an incremental expansion of the credit domain.


Subprime mortgages were about 5% in 1994. In 2003, they were below 10%. Between 2004~2006, subprime mortgages surged to the 20% range.

Clinton put a small hole in the boat. I don't endorse that but I contend it is myopic to blame Clinton for the meltdown. Bush put a much larger hole in the boat with his expansion of the program and giving away of down payments.





"Between 2004 and 2006 the share of subprime mortgages relative to total originations ranged from 18%–21%, versus less than 10% in 2001–2003 and during 2007"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis#cite_note-publications2-106


----------



## TomB19

By the way, I watched the congressional hearings which took place in 2002, in which Barney Frank stated directly that FM/FM were fine and the regulator's report was wrong. That was pure ignorance and straight up partisan hackery.

Why Bush and the Republicans decided to pour more fuel on the fire two years later is beyond me.


----------



## olivaw

Was the 2008 financial crisis the result of programs which extended home ownership to lower income families or was it the result of banking deregulation that allowed banks to trade in opaque and exotic CDOs and other derivatives? Nobody in the Administration or Congress saw it coming. Blame is hard to lay when the programs passed with bipartisan support and a number of different programs came together to create a perfect storm.


----------



## TomB19

Here's Barney Frank in 2005 completely blowing off a report from the regulator, warning of a housing bubble. Yeah, this was weapons grade ignorance.

I certainly am not arguing that Democrats had nothing to do with the housing bubble. They did. I just don't think that Clinton exclusively bares the responsibility for it.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> Was the 2008 financial crisis the result of programs which extended home ownership to lower income families or was it the result of banking deregulation that allowed banks to trade in opaque and exotic CDOs and other derivatives?


Indeed. Without the financial shell game and systemic re-packaging fraud, the 10% sub-prime loan levels of the Clinton era would have been sustainable. That doesn't make Clinton's home ownership program right. It just wasn't the free for all that happened much later.




olivaw said:


> Nobody in the Administration or Congress saw coming.


The regulator warned of a housing bubble as early as 2002. See the Barney Frank clip from 2005 where Barney refutes reports from the regulator of over extension (posted above).




olivaw said:


> Blame is hard to lay when the programs passed with bipartisan support.


Agreed.

I don't even blame Bush directly. These problems came from legislation and that responsibility rests with congress.


----------



## mordko

Tom - you have comprehension issues. I specifically stated: "Republicans and democrats share the blame for the past."

The policy of lending to people with poor credit was designed by Clinton's administration in 1999. His administration pushed lenders to ignore credit ratings. As such he carries the primary responsibility. By 2000 Fanie Mae and Freddie were offering no-downpayment loans.

In this way government agencies and the government planted the seeds of the 2008 crisis. 

Bush administration actually tried to control lending to people who couldn't afford the loans in 2002. That's a fact. The bill was killed by the Democrats. That's a fact. After 2002 Bush administration did nothing to control irresponsible lending. So it kept growing until 2007 but by then it was already too late.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Was the 2008 financial crisis the result of programs which extended home ownership to lower income families or was it the result of banking deregulation that allowed banks to trade in opaque and exotic CDOs and other derivatives?


Which "deregulation" are you talking about? Which law was revoked and by whom? 

Yes, the banks, and the rating agencies, and the insurance industry - all were to blame. Yet none of it would have happened without the government policy of providing mortgages to people who couldn't afford it. And once enough of these accumulated and started to default the housing crisis would have happened anyway, with or without mortgage derivatives.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Which "deregulation" are you talking about? Which law was revoked and by whom?


I believe he is referring to banking deregulation, as pushed by Alan Greenspan.



mordko said:


> Yet none of it would have happened without the government policy of providing mortgages to people who couldn't afford it. And once enough of these accumulated and started to default the housing crisis would have happened anyway, with or without mortgage derivatives.


Mortgages were being thrown at anyone who expressed an interest. I was around, in the day, and everyone laughed at the NINJA loans. We knew it was ridiculous.

The housing crisis would have happened, to some extent, but there would have been less collateral damage if the mortgage insurance and repackaging hadn't have occurred, not to mention the bubble would have burst much earlier, when it was not as big. The safety mechanisms were completely thrown out the window. R-E prices were definitely due to correct in some fashion but I believe the massive R-E implosion and bulldozing of brand new tracks of houses would not have happened, had the safeguards been left in place.


----------



## mordko

> Without the financial shell game and systemic re-packaging fraud, the 10% sub-prime loan levels of the Clinton era would have been sustainable.


The quota of lending to poor people was raised to 50% under Clinton not long before he finished his term in 2000. It was a time bomb.


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> I believe he is referring to banking deregulation, as pushed by Alan Greenspan.


So which particular law was revoked that would have prevented mortgage derivatives?


----------



## TomB19

What if a regulator had given a little look see at the re-packaging programs that turned garbage into gold? That might have been a good thing.

... but the regulators were de-fanged and the few that remain have been asleep on the job.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mordko said:


> So which particular law was revoked that would have prevented mortgage derivatives?


Glass - Steagall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Legislation


----------



## mordko

The regulators are staffed with people who are not bright enough to work in the financial industry. Same thing with the rating agencies. They looked at these products and rated them AAA. It's not a matter of "defanged" (never happened), it's a matter of being too dumb to spot the problem.


----------



## mordko

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Glass - Steagall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Legislation



Repealed in 1999, under Clinton.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> It's not a matter of "defanged" (never happened), it's a matter of being too dumb to spot the problem.





mordko said:


> Repealed in 1999, under Clinton.


You just cited it. Regulation largely went away in 1999. lol!


----------



## TomB19

It's interesting this thread has discussed the presidential race, almost exclusively. What about congress?

As I understand it, the senate will be close. It will probably be fairly evenly divided between the two parties. It wouldn't surprise me if the Democrats take it, but close, either way.

Everything I read suggests the house will remain solidly Republican.


Does anyone have insight into how this might go?


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> You just cited it. Regulation largely went away in 1999. lol!


Yes, under Clinton. Experts argue whether repealing of this had no effect at all or if it exacerbated the problem while not being the cause. Nobody is claiming that this regulation would have prevented 2008. The first set of guys makes more sense to me.


----------



## sags

It is all old news now.

The choice is a supremely qualified but little trusted Hillary Clinton, and severely unqualified and even less trusted Donald Trump.

This is the best America has to offer as the red, white and blue plate special in 2016.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> As did yours - except yours was sniffing like an addict. Diagnosis?


Trump would probably agree to a blood screening and would come up clean, but Hillary wouldn't because she doesn't want anyone to know how many different medications are being given to her, and what they are used for.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Trump would probably agree to a blood screening and would come up clean, but Hillary wouldn't because she doesn't want anyone to know how many different medications are being given to her, and what they are used for.


Check out her shoulder roll during the debate-not that much by Crooked Hillary standards but not normally what a healthy person does https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaECKYARbss


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> The choice is a supremely qualified but little trusted Hillary Clinton, and severely unqualified and even less trusted Donald Trump.
> 
> This is the best America has to offer as the red, white and blue plate special in 2016.




sags when folks write that these are the 2 least-trusted & least-liked candidates in US history, the situation is more complex than a 2-dimensional comparison imho.

there's a lot more free-floating hostility these days than ever before. So one would have to scale the disliking of presidential candidates to the disliking of everything. Worse. To the whining about, lying about, shooting at, murderous hatred of everything in general.

one can see this deterioration here in cmf forum. From when i joined in 2009 until the Sochi olympics in march 2014, we were more or less a spread-eagled family. A big boisterous clan that somehow managed to synch together. CC kept the trolls out.

then the dogs got in. Look at the forum now, a quarter to a third of it these days is shitposting. Alas, all coming from a tiny handful of newcomers. Same thing is happening on a global scale.


.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> You just cited it. Regulation largely went away in 1999. lol!


Republicans controlled both houses in 1999 when Glass-Steagall was repealed. Bill Clinton signed off on a law passed by the Republican congress. 

2007/2008 was a perfect storm of complex interactions with involvement from banks, consumers, regulators, government policy and rating agencies. Almost nobody saw it coming.

I have not read a single scholarly (non partisan) article that lays blame for the financial crisis at the feet of Bill Clinton. That particular hypothesis is the stuff of Internet forums and chat rooms.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> sags when folks write that these are the 2 least-trusted & least-liked candidates in US history, the situation is more complex than a 2-dimensional comparison imho.
> 
> there's a lot more free-floating hostility these days than ever before. So one would have to scale the disliking of presidential candidates to the disliking of everything. Worse. To the whining about, lying about, shooting at, murderous hatred of everything in general.
> 
> .


This is a good point Humble. Americans are so polarized that individual citizens willingly pour their time, money and energy into spewing hatred at the other party. Exaggerations become outright lies and claims go so far beyond the pale that all reason goes out the window. 

Apparently American political emotion is contagious, at least as far as this thread is concerned.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> This is a good point Humble. Americans are so polarized that individual citizens willingly pour their time, money and energy into spewing hatred at the other party. Exaggerations become outright lies and claims go so far beyond the pale that all reason goes out the window.
> 
> Apparently American political emotion is contagious, at least as far as this thread is concerned.


We agree on that.

The problem is that you wholeheartedly believe and support every single lie coming from the left, while dismissing any evidence of wrong doing by Hillary as a "right wing conspiracy". 100% total acceptance of one side and 100% complete dismissal if it comes from the other side.

You don't listen to both sides, weigh the evidence, and then make a decision...you simply adopt the progressive agenda without question.


----------



## sags

Emails, emails, emails.............

What I have never heard is how the Secretary of State, or any high ranking politician is supposed to access their emails when they aren't in their government office logged onto a secured government server.

Does Clinton just let them pile up while she is home or in a foreign nation ?

Any smartphone or other device would be a "private" server.

What a bunch of claptrap this whole email thing is.

The FBI testified once again today..............there was no basis for criminal charges..........end of story........period.

But the Republican committee members seem to feel they are more professional investigators than the FBI.

The Republican Party servers got hacked by the Russians. Why don't Republicans focus on that ?

Why doesn't Trump tell his buddy Putin to knock it off before it really gets messy..............for Russia.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> We agree on that.
> 
> The problem is that you wholeheartedly believe and support every single lie coming from the left, while dismissing any evidence of wrong doing by Hillary as a "right wing conspiracy". 100% total acceptance of one side and 100% complete dismissal if it comes from the other side.
> 
> You don't listen to both sides, weigh the evidence, and then make a decision...you simply adopt the progressive agenda without question.


No, I dismiss your posts as right wing conspiracies.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> No, I dismiss your posts as right wing conspiracies.


Humble is right-too many shitposts coming from the same troublemakers like this guy/girl/trans/whatever.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> The problem is that you wholeheartedly believe and support every single lie coming from the left, while dismissing any evidence of wrong doing by Hillary as a "right wing conspiracy". 100% total acceptance of one side and 100% complete dismissal if it comes from the other side.


lol!

The problem with you, bass player, is that you believe 100% of the Republican propaganda and dismiss 100 of anything that goes against that propaganda.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump's new buddy Putin is bombing 250,000 people in Aleppo without mercy, killing innocent men, women and children.

The US said that incendiary bombs were now being used on the people. Many experts consider that a war crime.

The Dutch say the results of their investigation shows that a Russian made surface to air missile, launched by Russian supported rebels near an occupied town in Ukraine, shot down the Malaysian Flight 17 passenger airliner killing all aboard.

_A total of 283 passengers, including 80 children, and 15 crew members were on board._

Trump should pick up the phone and talk to his buddy Vladimir, to prove to the world what a great negotiator he is.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> lol!
> 
> The problem with you, bass player, is that you believe 100% of the Republican propaganda and dismiss 100 of anything that goes against that propaganda.


IMHO there is just so much absurd pumping of Crooked Hillary on this forum that it causes a reaction in the other direction-nobody here actually believes that grifter is "supremely qualified to be POTUS" yet it was just mentioned.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Donald Trump's new buddy Putin is bombing 250,000 people in Aleppo without mercy, killing innocent men, women and children.
> 
> The US said that incendinary bombs were being used on the people.
> 
> The Dutch say the results of their investigation shows that a Russian made surface to air missile, launched from a Russian held town in Ukraine, shot down the MH 370 passenger airliner.
> 
> Trump should pick up the phone and talk to his buddy Vladimir, to show the world what a great negotiator he is.


Yeah, they are buddies, lol. You will believe anything. Don't forget that it was Hillary who backed a deal to sell US uranium to Russia.

However, someone should do something, because everyone knows Obama won't do a thing. He's currently pouting because his veto to prevent US citizens from suing Saudi Arabia for damages from 9-11 was overturned by both parties.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Yeah, they are buddies, lol. You will believe anything. Don't forget that it was Hillary who backed a deal to sell US uranium to Russia.
> 
> However, someone should do something, because everyone knows Obama won't do a thing. He's currently pouting because his veto to prevent US citizens from suing Saudi Arabia for damages from 9-11 was overturned by both parties.


Crooked Hillary made a fair chunk of change on that rotten deal-she would literally do anything for an extra dollar.


----------



## olivaw

Republican endorsements of Secretary Clinton continue. Today, five-time Republican Virginia Senator John Warner endorsed her. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37499678

Warner said 'National Security for Dummies’ is no way to learn the presidency, referring to Trump's lack of preparedness for the role of commander in chief.

This is the first time that Sen. Warner has endorsed a Democrat.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> Yeah, they are buddies, lol. You will believe anything. Don't forget that it was Hillary who backed a deal to sell US uranium to Russia


I believe that. I am reading Russian press and apparently Trump won the debate and is generally the greatest after Putin. 

And I can't think of any reason for US to sell Uranium to Russia, given that Russia has more and Kazakhstan is next door. US actually buys from Canada.


----------



## new dog

I wouldn't read to much into Republicans endorsing Hillary. The best way to say it is if you had two teams one being Calgary(the republicans lets say) and the other the democrats are the Edmonton Oilers. Both cities will cheer for their team but if you had a NHL sanctioned game between the provinces BC and Alberta they will cheer for Alberta even though both cities have players on team Alberta. So as long as the two parties are playing against each other the parties will cheer for their individual parties. Trump is outside their system so they don't like him and rally against him together, just like they would a challenging opponent like Ross Perot.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Check out her shoulder roll during the debate-not that much by Crooked Hillary standards but not normally what a healthy person does https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaECKYARbss


That was not involuntary. It was her mocking Trump.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Donald Trump's new buddy Putin is bombing 250,000 people in Aleppo without mercy, killing innocent men, women and children.
> 
> The US said that incendiary bombs were now being used on the people. Many experts consider that a war crime.
> 
> The Dutch say the results of their investigation shows that a Russian made surface to air missile, launched by Russian supported rebels near an occupied town in Ukraine, shot down the Malaysian Flight 17 passenger airliner killing all aboard.
> 
> _A total of 283 passengers, including 80 children, and 15 crew members were on board._
> 
> Trump should pick up the phone and talk to his buddy Vladimir, to prove to the world what a great negotiator he is.


Sags neither the Russians or the US are doing any good in Syria. The US should have left Syria alone in the first place as I have said many times. Obama is more to blame then Russia for kicking up this shite storm in the first place. Trump is no good and neither is Putin, Obama, Bush and Hillary and everyone should be able to see this.


----------



## new dog

andrewf said:


> That was not involuntary. It was her mocking Trump.



Andrewf you don't need to explain, this was just a silly comment by nelley, I saw the debate and Trump looked sicker then Hillary, with all his sniffling it seemed like he was doing.


----------



## TomB19

I think Trump did pretty well, composure wise. He has plenty of TV time and stage time but it would have to be intimidating to participate in his first presidential debate.


----------



## humble_pie

one has to admit that trump has found a better hairdresser at last.

that new colour is often known as "mink." It's what the better coiffeuses come up with when they're faced with the challenge of having to fix up one of those brazen yellow or orange dye jobs.

i'm still puzzled by the fluffy little feather duster on the forehead though. That couldn't be trump's own hair, it's more like duck down. Seriously i feel trump would look better without a small feather duster pasted onto his hairline.

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> one has to admit that trump has found a better hairdresser at last.
> 
> that new colour is often known as "mink." It's what the better coiffeuses come up with when they're faced with the challenge of having to fix up one of those brazen yellow or orange dye jobs.
> 
> i'm still puzzled by the fluffy little feather duster on the forehead though. That couldn't be trump's own hair, it's more like duck down. Seriously i feel trump would look better without a small feather duster pasted onto his hairline.
> 
> .


Pearls of wisdom from the Queen of the Shitposters.


----------



## humble_pie

^

whatsamatter, unwelcome-shitposter-nelley-who-joined-last-month

do you need a better hairdresser?


----------



## humble_pie

one could see that the debate had already been decided while the two candidates were still arriving on the stage.

hillary walked confidently forward with her right hand extended to greet trump, like an athlete into the stadium for a sport she knows & loves so well.

trump shuffled along, grimacing awkwardly, his face twisted into a rictus of doubt.

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> one could see that the debate had already been decided while the two candidates were still arriving on the stage.
> 
> hillary walked confidently forward with her right hand extended to greet trump, like an athlete into the stadium for a sport she knows & loves so well.
> 
> trump shuffled along, grimacing awkwardly, his face twisted into a rictus of doubt.
> 
> .


How long did you work on that one, Annie Wilkes?


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> Check out her shoulder roll during the debate-not that much by Crooked Hillary standards but not normally what a healthy person does https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaECKYARbss


What the hell are you talking about? She simply did a normal type of "I'm excited, raring to go" type gesture, like rubbing your hands together with glee (at Trump's idiocy). You know, all this redundant speculation about her supposed 'health issues' needs to drop- it's getting pretty tiresome. Right- she was on 'horse steroids' as one of you mentioned. She has Parkinson's. She can't remain conscious and upright or 90 minutes. She's pumped full of medications. What a bunch of ****. Are you guys as misogynist as The Donald with his Miss Universe contests and body shaming etc etc? Seems that way to me.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> trump shuffled along, grimacing awkwardly, his face twisted into a rictus of doubt.
> 
> .


The Trump campaign is reportedly in damage control over the debate. Apparently it has been 'awkward' to convince Trump that he needs to better prepare for the next.

The good news for Trump is that he can only get better.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> We agree on that.
> 
> The problem is that you wholeheartedly believe and support every single lie coming from the left, while dismissing any evidence of wrong doing by Hillary as a "right wing conspiracy". 100% total acceptance of one side and 100% complete dismissal if it comes from the other side.
> 
> You don't listen to both sides, weigh the evidence, and then make a decision...you simply adopt the progressive agenda without question.


Curious if that is that meant to be 'you' in the singular or plural? Meaning, directed towards that one poster quoted or to all who are not in your camp?


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> What the hell are you talking about? She simply did a normal type of "I'm excited, raring to go" type gesture, like rubbing your hands together with glee (at Trump's idiocy). You know, all this redundant speculation about her supposed 'health issues' needs to drop- it's getting pretty tiresome. Right- she was on 'horse steroids' as one of you mentioned. She has Parkinson's. She can't remain conscious and upright or 90 minutes. She's pumped full of medications. What a bunch of ****. Are you guys as misogynist as The Donald with his Miss Universe contests and body shaming etc etc? Seems that way to me.


Quit your whining-you don't know what is wrong with Crooked Hillary so quit pretending like you have some secret knowledge.


----------



## TomB19

indexxx said:


> What the hell are you talking about? She simply did a normal type of "I'm excited, raring to go" type gesture, like rubbing your hands together with glee (at Trump's idiocy). You know, all this redundant speculation about her supposed 'health issues' needs to drop- it's getting pretty tiresome. Right- she was on 'horse steroids' as one of you mentioned. She has Parkinson's. She can't remain conscious and upright or 90 minutes. She's pumped full of medications. What a bunch of ****. Are you guys as misogynist as The Donald with his Miss Universe contests and body shaming etc etc? Seems that way to me.


Don't let Conspiracy Nelley get to you. He's good fun, if you know how to enjoy him.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Quit your whining-you don't know what is wrong with Crooked Hillary so quit pretending like you have some secret knowledge.


Clinton is fine. Don't worry your little sock puppet head about it.


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> Quit your whining-you don't know what is wrong with Crooked Hillary so quit pretending like you have some secret knowledge.


I'm not pretending anything of the sort- those foisting health conspiracies are the ones claiming to have the exclusive inside track to something. Something vague and scary... unlike T-Rump's verbal diarrhea which is evident to all. I'm not necessarily a huge Clinton fan, but she looked pretty damn fit and healthy on Monday, which is interesting after all the dozens of 'I'm 100% convinced she'll collapse' posts. Is anyone able to admit that they were wrong? Or would that be too humbling. That 'shoulder roll' video that was linked is just a laughable, desperate straw-grasp at a non-existent issue, which was the point of my post. 

Donald Trump, I fart in your general direction!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJF0j-RLxk


----------



## james4beach

Nelley said:


> If you hate Americans and hate the USA so badly, stay away from the USA-they don't need you.


Wow Nelley, when did I ever say I hate America? I'm a huge fan of the USA ... that's why I'm here.

And like my American coworkers, I really want to see America prosper and thrive. That's why (like the Americans I know) I am afraid of Trump becoming president, because I think he will harm the country.

Canada should care a lot too. If you look at plots of US GDP vs Canadian GDP you'll see that we move in lock step. The two countries are joined at the hip ... this is the closest partnership of any two western countries. We are extremely dependent on each other.

http://www.investingthesis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Canada-GDP-Growth-Versus-US-GDP-Growth.jpg

Canada needs a successful, prosperous and stable US. Trump is a danger to that. There is nothing worse than having an economic & social disaster next door to you. This is very, very dangerous to Canada. If Trump gets elected you will see the markets react with flight to safety and de-risking. He is a wildcard, an unpredictable liar who might do ANYTHING. If Trump gets elected it may be wise to liquidate shares and bring the money home... especially since the US is at all time highs anyway.


----------



## olivaw

John Oliver's humorous take on scandals. Clinton v. Trump.


----------



## heyjude

This is the best debate review I've seen.

https://www.facebook.com/RandyRainbowOfficial/videos/875192765916001/


----------



## sags

According to three independent surveys, Clinton won the debate by more than I would have thought.

Trump not only failed to gain any ground, but his favorable ratings took a big plunge.

On average Clinton doubled Trump's favorable rating.........60% to 30%.

With 40 days left until the election Trump is running out of time, and getting more desperate.

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> I'm not pretending anything of the sort- those foisting health conspiracies are the ones claiming to have the exclusive inside track to something. Something vague and scary... unlike T-Rump's verbal diarrhea which is evident to all. I'm not necessarily a huge Clinton fan, but she looked pretty damn fit and healthy on Monday, which is interesting after all the dozens of 'I'm 100% convinced she'll collapse' posts. Is anyone able to admit that they were wrong? Or would that be too humbling. That 'shoulder roll' video that was linked is just a laughable, desperate straw-grasp at a non-existent issue, which was the point of my post.
> 
> Donald Trump, I fart in your general direction!!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJF0j-RLxk


Maybe that video of Crooked Hillary being thrown into the van like a sack of potatoes (over 4 million views) has something to do with these crazy theories-that and a lot else. Are you ignorant or just pretending to be ignorant?


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Wow Nelley, when did I ever say I hate America? I'm a huge fan of the USA ... that's why I'm here.
> 
> And like my American coworkers, I really want to see America prosper and thrive. That's why (like the Americans I know) I am afraid of Trump becoming president, because I think he will harm the country.
> 
> Canada should care a lot too. If you look at plots of US GDP vs Canadian GDP you'll see that we move in lock step. The two countries are joined at the hip ... this is the closest partnership of any two western countries. We are extremely dependent on each other.
> 
> http://www.investingthesis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Canada-GDP-Growth-Versus-US-GDP-Growth.jpg
> 
> Canada needs a successful, prosperous and stable US. Trump is a danger to that. There is nothing worse than having an economic & social disaster next door to you. This is very, very dangerous to Canada. If Trump gets elected you will see the markets react with flight to safety and de-risking. He is a wildcard, an unpredictable liar who might do ANYTHING. If Trump gets elected it may be wise to liquidate shares and bring the money home... especially since the US is at all time highs anyway.


As if you would know anything at all about this subject. Jeez.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> John Oliver's humorous take on scandals. Clinton v. Trump.



thankx olivaw. In your video (below) i'm finally getting to hear what underlies those fake references from nelley about hillary clinton selling uranium to russia.

other parties have posted that hillary clinton never sold any uranium to russia & these parties are 100% correct.

what was sold to rosAtom - by the shareholders, not by hillary clinton - was a publicly-traded canadian uranium mining company called Uranium One, which owned a couple of raw uranium mines in kazakhstan. The ore bodies had been discovered in the 1960s by french geologists working with rosAtom, the atomic energy authority of the soviet union, but nothing had ever been done to develop them.


*frank giustra diddit:*

enter a diminutive, reclusive vancouver mining billionnaire named frank giustra into the picture. Most cmffers will know giustra better as the financier who founded goldcorp.

always the promoter, frank giustra set out to make a bunch of money with the raw undeveloped kazakh uranium mines. He persuaded his good friend bill clinton to fly with him in his, giustra's, private jet to Astana, capital of kazakhstan, to meet with kazakh dictator Nursultan Nazarbayan.


*a dictator's banquet:*

it's reported that giustra & clinton arrived in astana, attended a welcoming banquet that same evening hosted by nursultan & ended the night with an agreement to buy the 3 kazakh mines for a pittance. The mines were then owned by a partnership consisting of french geologists, rosAtom of russia, nursultan himself plus a handful of kazakh nationals.

giustra promptly transferred ownership of the kazakh mines into one of his personal holding companies.

back in canada, a year or two later, giustra would launch an IPO of his kazakh uranium mine holdings. This brand-new public company would be named Uranium One.

reportedly, giustra made something $30 million profit on the deal. Also reportedly, giustra gifted $3 million to the clinton foundation. This - the $3 million - is a standard finder's fee. Without former US president bill clinton at his side at nursultan's banquet in astana, it's unlikely that giustra by himself would have snagged the 3 kazakh mines so easily.


*russia's rosAtom always a shareholder:*

throughout this exotic saga, rosAtom of russia remained a minority shareholder at all times in the string of legal organisms - from french geologists to Uranium One - that owned the kazakh mines. After Uranium One went public in canada, rosAtom retained its stake.

eventually, rosAtom would buy out all of Uranium One & take the company private. We shareholders received a special dividend of one USD ($1) per share.

none of this later part of the story - the sale of Uranium One to rosAtom - had anything to do with hillary clinton as US secretary of state, other than the fact that the US cabinet had to authorize the sale of US energy critical industries to foreign interests.

if olivaw or anyone else has read thus far, how about putting these grotesque lies & other obscenities from nelley & bass player to bed forever?

.






.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Are you ignorant or just pretending to be ignorant?


There is no call for rudeness, Conspiracy Nelley.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> ...i'm finally getting to hear what underlies those fake references from nelley about hillary clinton selling uranium to russia.


I applaud the objectivity of anyone who still thinks there might be something in the crap from Conspiracy Nelley and the radical right.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> thankx olivaw. In your video (below) i'm finally getting to hear what underlies those fake references from nelley about hillary clinton selling uranium to russia.
> 
> other parties have posted that hillary clinton never sold any uranium to russia & these parties are 100% correct.
> 
> what was sold to rosAtom - by the shareholders, not by hillary clinton - was a publicly-traded canadian uranium mining company called Uranium One, which owned a couple of raw uranium mines in kazakhstan. The ore bodies had been discovered in the 1960s by french geologists working with rosAtom, the atomic energy authority of the soviet union, but nothing had ever been done to develop them.
> 
> 
> *frank giustra diddit:*
> 
> enter a diminutive, reclusive vancouver mining billionnaire named frank giustra into the picture. Most cmffers will know giustra better as the financier who founded goldcorp.
> 
> always the promoter, frank giustra set out to make a bunch of money with the raw undeveloped kazakh uranium mines. He persuaded his good friend bill clinton to fly with him in his, giustra's, private jet to Astana, capital of kazakhstan, to meet with kazakh dictator Nursultan Nazarbayan.
> 
> 
> *a dictator's banquet:*
> 
> it's reported that giustra & clinton arrived in astana, attended a welcoming banquet that same evening hosted by nursultan & ended the night with an agreement to buy the 3 kazakh mines for a pittance. The mines were then owned by a partnership consisting of french geologists, rosAtom of russia, nursultan himself plus a handful of kazakh nationals.
> 
> giustra promptly transferred ownership of the kazakh mines into one of his personal holding companies.
> 
> back in canada, a year or two later, giustra would launch an IPO of his kazakh uranium mine holdings. This brand-new public company would be named Uranium One.
> 
> reportedly, giustra made something $30 million profit on the deal. Also reportedly, giustra gifted $3 million to the clinton foundation. This - the $3 million - is a standard finder's fee. Without former US president bill clinton at his side at nursultan's banquet in astana, it's unlikely that giustra by himself would have snagged the 3 kazakh mines so easily.
> 
> 
> *russia's rosAtom always a shareholder:*
> 
> throughout this exotic saga, rosAtom of russia remained a minority shareholder at all times in the string of legal organisms - from french geologists to Uranium One - that owned the kazakh mines. After Uranium One went public in canada, rosAtom retained its stake.
> 
> eventually, rosAtom would buy out all of Uranium One & take the company private. We shareholders received a special dividend of one USD ($1) per share.
> 
> none of this later part of the story - the sale of Uranium One to rosAtom - had anything to do with hillary clinton as US secretary of state, other than the fact that the US cabinet had to authorize the sale of US energy critical industries to foreign interests.
> 
> if olivaw or anyone else has read thus far, how about putting these grotesque lies & other obscenities from nelley & bass player to bed forever?
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Annie Wilkes: You just heard about this one yesterday and now you are an expert (because of John Oliver of all people). Jeez.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I applaud the objectivity of anyone who still thinks there might be something in the crap from Conspiracy Nelley and the radical right.


You may be stupid but you are certainly well mannered.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> I applaud the objectivity of anyone who still thinks there might be something in the crap from Conspiracy Nelley and the radical right.



TomB i was writing for other readers, because it's evident from this thread that there are some general cmf forum members who believe there could be merit to nelley's lies & bass players's lies.

for example, one objective cmffer upthread posted that he doesn't follow politics much, he'd never seen a video of hillary clinton speaking, so initially the nelley/bass posts had persuaded him that possibly he would witness a frail, ailing, ruthless ("cold-eyed" i think he said) woman with one foot in the grave.

he said the debate surprised him with a robust, healthy & confident clinton who was 100% on top of her game & "sharp as a tack."

i think there are many more parties like this. They have no particular framework to hang the nelley lies upon, so even if they don't believe the lies outright, such parties are likely to remain in a half-decided state. This IMHO is how mob rule takes hold. Over time, the lies will gain credence, unless responsible parties address them with facts. Me i think it's important to intervene to stop public lynchings.

this in turn leads to why i believe it's important for posters like olivaw & yourself - who possess both facts & insight - to post the truth from time to time.

as it happens, i was a shareholder in Uranium One, it was the kind of flambuoyant tale that delights me, so i really did know the story inside out .each:

.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> You just heard about this one yesterday and now you are an expert (because of John Oliver of all people). Jeez.




wrong. Another lie from Lying Nelley.

my records show that i bought Uranium One shares in june 2010 & held these until the company was sold to rosAtom of russia in 2013. In effect, i sold my shares to rosAtom.

i won't comment on whether the transaction was profitable or not except to say that it was mildly profitable. I won't comment on whether the options were profitable to sell other than to say they were more profitable than the stock itself. I won't comment because Lying Nelley doesn't understand how financial markets work.

.


----------



## mrPPincer

Entertaining for now, but anyone care to speculate what the next drama thread will be after Hillary Clinton wins by a landslide and our local Trump-pump-drone, Hillary-smearing zealot, the
lying Conspiracy Nelly finally dissolves back into darkest corners of the internet where they came from?


----------



## humble_pie

.

there's an excellent speculation upthread that Lying Nelley is a paid shitposter from nimble america.

what kind of persons would stoop to work for pay as nimble america shitposters in social media?

to me Lying Nelley sounds like an online sex worker. The kind that work websites & phones only.

Lying Nelley also appears to be the kind that specializes in strong S & M. It's her malodourous obsession with decaying body parts that gives off such a strong whiff.

.


----------



## mordko

There is nothing like a dumb conspiracy theory to counter a dumb conspiracy theory.


----------



## humble_pie

lol he's jealous of people who made $$ in Uranium One ...


----------



## sags

President Obama participated in a town hall with members of the military, Gold Star families and others.

Obama answered a variety of questions from the audience, as precisely and understandably as he could, and made it clear why the US is involved in the countries in the middle east and how the participation has evolved since he was elected.

The US is going to miss Obama, for his deep thought and understanding of broad issues..........but Hillary Clinton has been part of the process for many years and has a clarity of understanding of the myriad complex issues that confront the US and the world.

Contrast that with Donald Trump's lack of knowledge and the choice for Americans should be easy in the upcoming election.

If Americans dismiss experience, knowledge and temperament to choose someone completely devoid of those qualities, it shows the level of discontent in the US has reached the stage of self destructive behavior.

Forgive them for they know not what they do.............would be a thought echoed around the world.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> .
> 
> there's an excellent speculation upthread that Lying Nelley is a paid shitposter from nimble america.
> 
> what kind of persons would stoop to work for pay as nimble america shitposters in social media?
> 
> to me Lying Nelley sounds like an online sex worker. The kind that work websites & phones only.
> 
> Lying Nelley also appears to be the kind that specializes in strong S & M. It's her malodourous obsession with decaying body parts that gives off such a strong whiff.
> 
> .


Have you ever considered therapy to address your severe hatred issues?


----------



## olivaw

We all agree that Conspiracy Nelley is a sockpuppet. 

A disagreement has arisen over whether Conspiracy Nelley is a paid female sex worker or a 400 pound male who pays for kinky sex. Perhaps another poll? 

:bull_head:


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> President Obama participated in a town hall with members of the military, Gold Star families and others.
> 
> Obama answered a variety of questions from the audience, as precisely and understandably as he could, and made it clear why the US is involved in the countries in the middle east and how the participation has evolved since he was elected.
> 
> The US is going to miss Obama, for his deep thought and understanding of broad issues..........but Hillary Clinton has been part of the process for many years and has a clarity of understanding of the myriad complex issues that confront the US and the world.
> 
> Contrast that with Donald Trump's lack of knowledge and the choice for Americans should be easy in the upcoming election.
> 
> If Americans dismiss experience, knowledge and temperament to choose someone completely devoid of those qualities, it shows the level of discontent in the US has reached the stage of self destructive behavior.
> 
> Forgive them for they know not what they do.............would be a thought echoed around the world.


While Obama sounds academic, the reality is that Obama will be leaving a trail of foreign policy disasters. 

Now we just need the rambling psychologically challenged incompetence that is Trump to take the baton.


----------



## olivaw

Trump has finally accepted that he lost the debate. His excuses are:

- Google has rigged search results to favour Clinton
- Lester Holt was bias
- His microphone was not loud enough


Trump is the change candidate only in that President Obama was an intellectual giant. Trump is an intellectual midget.


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> Entertaining for now, but anyone care to speculate what the next drama thread will be after Hillary Clinton wins by a landslide and our local Trump-pump-drone, Hillary-smearing zealot, the
> lying Conspiracy Nelly finally dissolves back into darkest corners of the internet where they came from?


I think it's fantastic that so many Republicans are vocal about voting for Hillary. IMO, it is a clear indication of an undercurrent of rationality in a party that is currently represented by whackos.

Both Kevin McCarthy and Richard Hanna have come out and said the Benghazi hearings are a taxpayer funded political attack on Hillary. Reasonable people always knew that. It is not sane to have 33 hearings on one topic with literally zero results. How many times have we been told new evidence will be presented at a hearing that will blow the lid off a conspiracy by Obama and Clinton. How many times have they produced anything at all? Zero.

At least the email scandal has some substance. Hillary is guilty of incompetence with regard to email security. She mishandled 113 confidential emails. That is not nothing. She is vying to be the leader of the free world but Republicans are beating the drum as though she was conspiring to bring communism to the US. Ridiculous.

There are no other scandals. Not real ones.

You don't have to be all that clever to see that legions of people like Conspiracy Nelley are throwing whatever they can find or make up about Hillary and seeing if it will stick to the wall. These radicals don't care about the US. They care about power. The lies, deceit, and out right traitorous behaviors are impossible to respect.

The real crime here is we can see there are some Republicans who are repulsed by the actions of the party base. They may vote for Hillary but their views are not represented. How much stronger would the US be if the Republican party, whether in power or not, was run by competent and reasonable individuals who would work toward the betterment of the country? Those folks exist. They just don't have control of the party, at the moment. These are the people I am cheering for. I really hope they can regain some power and restore some rationality to the political process.


----------



## sags

Failed Obama foreign policy ? How so ?

When Obama took office, there were more than 100,000 US troops in Afghanistan. Today there are 6,000 in on combat positions, except for special forces support. There are a minimum number of troops located in the other countries for training and support purposes.

Iraq has been an ongoing struggle since the US invasion under previous administrations.

In Syria and Libya, the US has supported local uprisings to overthrow despotic dictators who were committing mass murder against their own people. The intervention of Russia has slowed progress and keeps Assad in power in Syria.

As pointed out by Obama, although watching the violence in those countries is heart wrenching, the US cannot simply invade other countries with hundreds of thousands of troops, unless there is a direct security threat to the US or it's allies.

Russia, China and Iran all have their own interests in the region, and the situation would escalate quickly with more direct US involvement.

Some fingers are pointed at Obama, but no alternative solutions are offered, and he remains one of the most popular out going Presidents in US history.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Trump has finally accepted that he lost the debate. His excuses are:
> 
> - Google has rigged search results to favour Clinton
> - Lester Holt was bias
> - His microphone was not loud enough
> 
> 
> Trump is the change candidate only in that President Obama was an intellectual giant. Trump is an intellectual midget.


Google's Hillary bias is well known:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFxFRqNmXKg

It was easy to detect that Holt was on Hillary's side...she is the only candidate in history being investigated by the FBI and that was never brought up, yet Holt made the silly birther issue a main topic. Holt also ignored Benghazi, The Clinton Foundation, and several other Hillary crimes and misdeeds while jumping on Trump every chance he had.

Obama isn't an intellectual giant, he's a smug narcissist who is no smarter or dumber than anyone else.


----------



## andrewf

"Obama [...] is no smarter or dumber than anyone else."

This statement implies that everyone has exactly equal intelligence. Stephen Hawking is no more clever than Honey Boo Boo.

I think that is enough to assess how seriously we should take what you say.


----------



## mordko

> When Obama took office, there were more than 100,000 US troops in Afghanistan. Today there are 6,000 in on combat positions, except for special forces support.


How is that an achievement? When Roosevelt took office he had no troops in Europe or Japan. When he died, he had lots of troops overseas. Does it mean he failed? Only in the eyes of isolationists and Nazi sympathizers. 

Obama pulled out troops on a pre-set date and ensured that ISIS took over the whole region. Great work.

Obama permitted the use of chemical weapons which was his "red line" with zero consequences. And again. And again. 

Obama provided funding and is doing business with terrorist nuclear-weapons seeking Iran. Awesome. 

Obama encouraged every imperialistic dictator worldwide starting from Putin. 

>500 thousand killed in Syria. Millions forced to flee. Today administration is saying it will get tough on Putin in Syria. Guess they are planning to say "don't do it" with an even sterner expression.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Obama isn't an intellectual giant, he's a smug narcissist who is no smarter or dumber than anyone else.


This is objectively false.

You may disagree with some of his philosophy, as I do, but he is among the strongest intellects to ever hold the office.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Google's Hillary bias is well known:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFxFRqNmXKg


This is a nonsense video that used cherry picked Autocomplete phrases. It was debunked long ago. 

http://www.snopes.com/google-manipulate-hillary-clinton/

or

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishmaeldar...omplete-debunk?utm_term=.evBW12mg2#.pted1BVnB

Why is Trump promoting another old conspiracy theory?


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> "Obama [...] is no smarter or dumber than anyone else."
> 
> This statement implies that everyone has exactly equal intelligence. Stephen Hawking is no more clever than Honey Boo Boo.
> 
> I think that is enough to assess how seriously we should take what you say.


If you are comparing Stephen Hawking to Honey Boo, then perhaps that is an indication of how seriously you should be taken. My point was that Obama doesn't display any grater intelligence than anyone else who has been president.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> This is a nonsense video that used cherry picked Autocomplete phrases. It was debunked long ago.
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/google-manipulate-hillary-clinton/
> 
> or
> 
> https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishmaeldar...omplete-debunk?utm_term=.evBW12mg2#.pted1BVnB
> 
> Why is Trump promoting another old conspiracy theory?


Snopes and Buzzfeed? Both of those sites have known left bias and can't be trusted.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Snopes and Buzzfeed? Both of those sites have known left bias and can't be trusted.


You believe that any organization that debunks your pet conspiracy theories must be bias and can't be trusted. 

(Snopes is objective and non-partisan. Buzzfeed is not a serious site but the headline is fun).


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> You believe that any organization that debunks your conspiracy theories must be bias and can't be trusted.


No, but you certainly do.



olivaw said:


> (Snopes is objective and non-partisan. Buzzfeed is not a serious site but the headline is fun).


Do some research. Snopes has been caught lying in favour of Hillary and Obama several times and Buzzfeed has obvious left bias. If doesn't matter if you disagree, those are the facts.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> How is that an achievement? When Roosevelt took office he had no troops in Europe or Japan. When he died, he had lots of troops overseas. Does it mean he failed? Only in the eyes of isolationists and Nazi sympathizers.
> 
> Obama pulled out troops on a pre-set date and ensured that ISIS took over the whole region. Great work.
> 
> Obama permitted the use of chemical weapons which was his "red line" with zero consequences. And again. And again.
> 
> Obama provided funding and is doing business with terrorist nuclear-weapons seeking Iran. Awesome.
> 
> Obama encouraged every imperialistic dictator worldwide starting from Putin.
> 
> >500 thousand killed in Syria. Millions forced to flee. Today administration is saying it will get tough on Putin in Syria. Guess they are planning to say "don't do it" with an even sterner expression.


So your solution to all the problems is what............invade and occupy all those problem countries ?


----------



## none

bass player said:


> My point was that Obama doesn't display any grater intelligence than anyone else who has been president.


"Grater" Hilarious.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Do some research. Snopes has been caught lying in favour of Hillary and Obama several times and Buzzfeed has obvious left bias. If doesn't matter if you disagree, those are the facts.


Snopes has been supremely objective. It wouldn't surprise me if they've made a mistake but Republican radicals thing everything they disagree with is a lie. The truth hurts. Your bass line is off pitch.

Snopes is one of very few organizations left that does research to validate claims and uses an objective method. Kudos to them.


----------



## bass player

none said:


> "Grater" Hilarious.


Give it a rest...it was a finger slip.


----------



## sags

Post debate debacle for Trump, people can rest a little easier now.

His election campaign team is in disarray. Trump is blaming them for his poor debate performance. They blame him for a lack of preparation.

Trump campaign leaders realize he is going to lose badly and they don't want to be associated with a weak campaign strategy.

They are professional election campaign leaders and are already looking to future job opportunities.

Trump's penchant for always blaming someone else for his own failures, is sowing seeds of discontent among his campaign.

Trump seriously underestimated how much the media scrutiny would increase as the Presidential nominee.

Media reports are now that Trump illegally funneled money into Cuba through one of his charities.

This coming only days after Trump was surprised that Clinton knew about his Miss Universe comments.

Hillary Clinton on the other hand, has already been investigated endlessly as her rabid critics try to find anything they can use.

After decades of searching...........they are still coming up empty handed.

Clinton can now shrug her shoulders or roll her eyes..............she has earned the right to do that.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> My point was that Obama doesn't display any grater intelligence than anyone else who has been president.


That is also incorrect. Obama has displayed intelligence that has placed him in the top two or three presidents.

If you are making a point that all presidents have had above average intellect, I can certainly go along with that. Even Dubya is said to have well above average intellect, and he was toward the back of the pack. They are all smart.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Snopes has been supremely objective. It wouldn't surprise me if they've made a mistake but Republican radicals thing everything they disagree with is a lie. The truth hurts. Your bass line is off pitch.
> 
> Snopes is one of very few organizations left that does research to validate claims and uses an objective method. Kudos to them.


Do some research...they have been busted several times. Blaming everything you disagree with on a right wing lie or conspiracy is the standard leftist dodge when they don't like inconvenient facts.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Give it a rest...it was a finger slip.


I'll bet Conspiracy Nelley has a lot of finger slips. He seems pretty angry.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Do some research...they have been busted several times. Blaming everything you disagree with on a right wing lie or conspiracy is the standard leftist dodge when they don't like inconvenient facts.


Your Joseph McCarthyesq attempt to smear Snopes is laughable.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Failed Obama foreign policy ? How so ?
> 
> When Obama took office, there were more than 100,000 US troops in Afghanistan. Today there are 6,000 in on combat positions, except for special forces support. There are a minimum number of troops located in the other countries for training and support purposes.
> 
> Iraq has been an ongoing struggle since the US invasion under previous administrations.
> 
> In Syria and Libya, the US has supported local uprisings to overthrow despotic dictators who were committing mass murder against their own people. The intervention of Russia has slowed progress and keeps Assad in power in Syria.
> 
> As pointed out by Obama, although watching the violence in those countries is heart wrenching, the US cannot simply invade other countries with hundreds of thousands of troops, unless there is a direct security threat to the US or it's allies.
> 
> Russia, China and Iran all have their own interests in the region, and the situation would escalate quickly with more direct US involvement.
> 
> Some fingers are pointed at Obama, but no alternative solutions are offered, and he remains one of the most popular out going Presidents in US history.



Yes the leaders of Libya and Syria were crappy but the job Obama and the west did to remove or try to remove them made things a 100 times worse for the people in those countries and for the world. I can't see any upside at all in what the west has done in the middle east except to make things worse and more unstable then ever.


----------



## sags

Trump has his base of supporters. Clinton has her base of supporters.

The difference in the election is uncommitted voters and independents.

Of that group, millennials who supported Bernie Sanders and some who now support Gary Johnson are coming to the understanding that if they don't vote for Hillary Clinton...........Donald Trump could win by default.

What Trump revealed in the debate is enough to cause millennial voters to change their votes to Hillary Clinton.


----------



## sags

new dog said:


> Yes the leaders of Libya and Syria were crappy but the job Obama and the west did to remove or try to remove them made things a 100 times worse for the people in those countries and for the world. I can't see any upside at all in what the west has done in the middle east except to make things worse and more unstable then ever.


The US supported the moderate rebels and they were nearing victory, until Russia entered the war on the side of Assad.

What the US could have done, and may still do, is to establish a "safe zone" and use US security forces to protect it.

But even that would have a myriad of complications and unknown unknowns.

In any event, Hillary Clinton is more hawkish than Barrack Obama, and Putin fears her more than he does Trump.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> So your solution to all the problems is what............invade and occupy all those problem countries ?


Of course not, but there should be clarity that there will be a price to pay should the red line be crossed. Obama provided clarity that any mass murdering tyrant can do absolutely anything, be it Putin or Assad or Iranian Mullahs. From Europe to Africa the world is less safe thanks to Barak Obama's administration. It won't be too long before mass murder will visit New York yet again.


----------



## new dog

mrPPincer said:


> Entertaining for now, but anyone care to speculate what the next drama thread will be after Hillary Clinton wins by a landslide and our local Trump-pump-drone, Hillary-smearing zealot, the
> lying Conspiracy Nelly finally dissolves back into darkest corners of the internet where they came from?


No matter who wins there will be a crap load of stuff to talk about and the next president will have to deal with congress as well. Think about it the Fed may have to lift rates destroying the economy, Deutsche banks problems are getting worse, TPP, very likely a global recession will emerge, entitlements, huge military budget and on and on. Even Warren Buffett is getting ready for a fall with a lot of cash ready.

Then there is aging infrastructure, inner city problems, the middle east, refugees, getting back the respect for law enforcement which is extremely low, racism for all colours white included and so on. There is a ton to talk about once we know who is president and it will take a great deal of leadership, far more then we have seen from Obama that is for sure. The new president will have to step outside the box and look for real solutions and new ideas which is what is making Trump popular but I don't think he will be the right one for the job.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> What the US could have done, and may still do, is to establish a "safe zone" and use US security forces to protect it.


Now here is a piece of politics that goes beyond Hillary ate my homework.

IMO, this is what politics is about. A bad situation exists. There are no good options. Discussion ought to happen, regarding the best approach to the problem. One of the options needs to be: do nothing.

It's easy to say the US should save the world from itself, while sitting in a comfy chair, watching stock charts on your third monitor, and committing 30% of your conscious energy to gainful employment. Somebody has to go into these garbage piles and get their hands dirty. It's never the forum bullies. Young men and women need to put their lives on the line to action these involvements. Sometimes it's worth it but we had better be damn sure of both the risk and the reward before we put many of the best individuals of a generation in harms way.


This sort of question is what the world is about. The "my guy is always right and your guy is always wrong" is just bullshit. Straight up.


----------



## TomB19

new dog said:


> No matter who wins there will be a crap load of stuff to talk about and the next president will have to deal with congress as well. Think about it the Fed may have to lift rates destroying the economy, Deutsche banks problems are getting worse, TPP, very likely a global recession will emerge, entitlements, huge military budget and on and on. Even Warren Buffett is getting ready for a fall with a lot of cash ready.
> 
> Then there is aging infrastructure, inner city problems, the middle east, refugees, getting back the respect for law enforcement which is extremely low, racism for all colours white included and so on. There is a ton to talk about once we know who is president and it will take a great deal of leadership, far more then we have seen from Obama that is for sure. The new president will have to step outside the box and look for real solutions and new ideas which is what is making Trump popular but I don't think he will be the right one for the job.


A tax cut for the rich ought to help.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> The US supported the moderate rebels and they were nearing victory, until Russia entered the war on the side of Assad.
> 
> What the US could have done, and may still do, is to establish a "safe zone" and use US security forces to protect it.
> 
> I doubt even Putin would be foolish enough to challenge the US.



I believe Mordko said it that the US basically invited Russia in with its clumsy policy in the middle east and namely Syria. Obama should have easily realized that getting rid of Assad means you will come face to face with a super power in Russia. How do you defeat anyone with the load of mass destruction weapons that they can bring to the table. They should have left Syria alone and only went in with the entire world on their side if it became essential to get rid of Assad. I believe it was more essential to get rid of the North Korean leader before he got the nuclear weapons and China should have been the one leading the global community to deal with them. Iran should also have been worked on involving China and Russia because unfortunately Iran is in their neighbourhood.

Going around destroying the middle east has made it very hard to work with China and Russia. There is a ton of work and diplomacy needed to deal with China and Russia to get them to see your point on the world working together . These countries are to powerful to ignore and we must find a way to get common ground and work with them which requires great leadership.


----------



## new dog

TomB19 said:


> A tax cut for the rich ought to help.


That sums it up in a very simple sentence as to why Trump is not going to make much of a difference


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> The US supported the moderate rebels and they were nearing victory, until Russia entered the war on the side of Assad.
> 
> What the US could have done, and may still do, is to establish a "safe zone" and use US security forces to protect it.


It was years before Russia actively joined the war. By the time Russia joined the war there were no "moderates" left on either side. That's because US/the west provided zero contribution; Iran and Russia supplied Assad while Saudis, Gulf States and Turkey supplied islamists. Moderates had no support and got annihilated. 

This administration's logic has been nothing short of deliberately harmful. Let's compare it's actions:

1. In Libya Qaddafi has disarmed and worked with the west. He was overthrown by the US and allies following a local uprising, the place was allowed to succumb to Al Qaeda/ISIS + affiliates. It was argued that the locals had to be protected.

2. In Syria Assad aligned Syria with terrorists like Hezbollah and Iran and used WMDs. He has been permitted to carry on with minimal US involvement. Not one finger was lifted to protect millions of civilians.


----------



## olivaw

On a lighter note 

Catchy tune .... *The Hillary Shimmy Song*


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> That's because US/the west provided zero contribution


The US should have sent in the military to fix the middle east, once and for all.


----------



## steve41

TomB19 said:


> The US should have sent in the military and fixed the middle east, once and for all.


Exactly... Nuke 'em back to the Stone Age!


----------



## TomB19

That stupid shimmy song has a grip on me like a virus.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> Of course not, but there should be clarity that there will be a price to pay should the red line be crossed. Obama provided clarity that any mass murdering tyrant can do absolutely anything, be it Putin or Assad or Iranian Mullahs. From Europe to Africa the world is less safe thanks to Barak Obama's administration. It won't be too long before mass murder will visit New York yet again.


There is clarity.........and Obama made the clarity absolutely clear.

The US cannot travel the world solving all the problems with military force. It does what it can through support and outside assistance.

And whenever possible it kills the leadership of the terrorist groups to eliminate their power and influence.

The director of the CIA gave an interview the other day, and said they are tracking the leader of ISIS all day every day, and have had many opportunities to kill him but ISIS has been careful to imbed him with innocent civilians. The director says they wait patiently for one golden opportunity and they will take it. It will come in a day, a week, a month, or a year.........he says, but the leader's death is already guaranteed.

I suggested the same a long time ago. Put a target on their backs and make it well known.

The terrorist leaders will spend more time worrying about their own safety than plotting their next attack.

And the next group of potential leaders will be hesitant to step up and meet the same fate.


----------



## sags

It should also be noted that targeting and killing foreign citizens is a significant change in public policy for the US, that has taken place under the Obama administration. George W. Bush hung the target on Bin Laden and Obama finished the job.

The US doesn't bother having the CIA sneak around with poison pens anymore. They use cruise missiles now.

Independent sources cite ISIS leadership in as much disarray as Donald Trump's campaign team.


----------



## mordko

The US is creating vacuum which is being filled in exactly the same manner as Afghanistan was in the 1990s. Only now it's across several countries in Africa, in Syria and parts of Iraq as well as Afghanistan.


----------



## olivaw

Hardly. The vacuum was created by the European colonial powers when they divided up the Middle East and Africa into non-viable nations. The US has made many mistakes under many presidents but they are not the source of every problem in the world.


----------



## new dog

They are not but they are a very good contributor to the chaos in the middle east. Obama has been playing checkers in the middle east and is shows with a world on the brink of war. We have all the super powers now playing with each other in a dangerous way.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Hardly. The vacuum was created by the European colonial powers when they divided up the Middle East and Africa into non-viable nations. The US has made many mistakes under many presidents but they are not the source of every problem in the world.


Surely current US policy has more to do with the mess in Syria and North Africa than what happened many decades ago. Unless you are saying that the "colonial powers" should have stayed put. Can't blame the Turks for everything, you know.

And I am not saying that the US is the primary cause of this mess - of course not. 

Yet it's an important player and when the administration is punishing Qaddafi and Mubarak, who were the allies and then leaves in place Chemical Assad who is allied with Iran and Hezbollah... This policy is schizophrenic and isn't helping, to say the least.


----------



## TomB19

Yeah, everything was running smoothly until the US stepped in. lol! 


The middle east is a monster that cannot be tamed.


----------



## olivaw

Fair enough mordko, the US has contributed something to the mess in the Middle East but so has many other nations. 

Qaddafi wasn't an ally. He was a former terrorist sponsor who had mellowed with age (or who had just become more pragmatic). 

Mubarak was an ally but he was also a dictator. The United States didn't overthrow him. They just refused to prop him up. 

I am not sure what could have been done differently in Syria. Obama asked congress for authorization to respond to Assad's use of chemical weapons of mass destruction. He was granted limited power but was not granted the authority to implement regime change. I would dearly love to see "chemical Assad" removed from power but who or what will replace him? 

Tom is right. The Middle East and North Africa are a monster that cannot be tamed. 

We have to destroy ISIS and other terrorist organizations but the US can't impose democracy through the use of military force.


----------



## mordko

Qaddafi was a nasty, nasty man. He used to be a terrorist. That has never stopped US in the past. They worked with all sorts of war criminals. Under Roosevelt and Truman they hired chemists who operated Auschwitz, doctors who experimented by murdering humans and rocket experts who murdered thousands of slaves as part of production cycle. 

Qaddafi got scared of what happened to Saddam, destroyed his own nuclear program and became an ally. That was when US deposed him and made sure he was dead.

Mubarak has always been a nasty dictator but a hell of a lot less nasty than Assad and his dad. He was an ally like forever. He was deposed.

Assad is the worst of all of them. He crossed the red line. Used chemical weapons. He is not an ally. In fact he is an ally of Hezbollah and Iran who have murdered thousands of Americans in the last few years. Syria has Russian bases, that would be the country that annexed part of Ukraine. He was permitted to carry on.

How is this not schizophrenic? What lesson does it teach?


----------



## sags

All heck breaking lose on Trump now, as investigative journalists dig deeper into his past.

It was reported that the Trump charity is a total sham operation. They didn't register as a charity and all the funds were collected illegally and then illegally used by Trump's companies for their own purposes. These are allegations of serious wrongdoing. The IRA will certainly also be interested if donors received receipts for charitable donations and submitted them to reduce taxes.

A lot of employees and former employees are stepping forward to reveal what it was like within the Trump organization. The employees are throughout the organization from lower levels to middle and top levels. Non disclosure agreements are starting to crumble.

Trump surrogates on the news shows are being shell shocked with new allegations popping up every few hours.


----------



## sags

USA Today, the largest print newspaper reversed their decision to endorse Donald Trump today.

_"This year, the choice isn’t between two capable major party nominees who happen to have significant ideological differences. This year, one of the candidates — Republican nominee Donald Trump — is, by unanimous consensus of the Editorial Board, unfit for the presidency" the editorial board wrote.

The editorial goes on to call Trump "erratic," "ill-equipped," "reckless," with a "checkered" business past, and a "serial liar."
_
_USA Today, which has the largest print circulation of any American newspaper, joins a string of other newspapers breaking with their traditions to go against Trump. The Arizona Republic and the Cincinnati Enquirer both endorsed Hillary Clinton over Trump, breaking with decades, and in the Republic's case, more than a century of tradition._

Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2016/09/donald-trump-usa-today-editorial-228597#ixzz4LhVRFsEL


----------



## mordko

Also it looks like Trump may have profited by broking the Cuban embargo. 

One has to wonder why it took so long for these stories to come out.


----------



## sags

All through the Republican primaries, the pundits and journalists who have been around for a long time, said there would be a huge increase in scrutiny once the general election began. They were proven right.

In another story..........Why were donors putting millions in to the Trump charity when he wasn't contributing anything himself ?

The question may be answered. 

Trump was directing millions of dollars in personal income to be paid to his foundation.

From what has been revealed, Trump then used the charity to pay his personal bills.

Did he pay income taxes on the donations ? Were donation receipts issued and to whom ?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...9e9fac-8352-11e6-ac72-a29979381495_story.html


----------



## andrewf

Committing tax fraud is "good business".


----------



## olivaw

The USA Today endorsement is interesting. The paper's policy was never to endorse a presidential candidate. They have reversed that policy this year because the editorial board unanimously agreed that Trump was uniquely unfit for the Presidency.


----------



## sags

A very interesting read, for those so inclined.

It details how Trump has changed the relationships among well known names in conservative media.

It is like an "inside story" with all the private conversations, exclusive dinners, and political posturing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/02/m...vil-war-within-the-right-wing-media.html?_r=0


----------



## mordko

Tax fraud? That just means I am clever!


----------



## TomB19

I doubt Trump is committing tax fraud.


----------



## olivaw

I am sure we'll clear up the misunderstanding just as soon as Trump releases his tax returns.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> A very interesting read, for those so inclined.
> 
> It details how Trump has changed the relationships among well known names in conservative media.
> 
> It is like an "inside story" with all the private conversations, exclusive dinners, and political posturing.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/02/m...vil-war-within-the-right-wing-media.html?_r=0



Trump is a no good pile of crap, we are all aware of this. Maybe not everyone from who posts here. Hillary is also a pile of steaming crap sags which of course you and others here haven't noticed.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> I doubt Trump is committing tax fraud.



probably true, he'd have to be even more of an idiot than he is.

on the other hand, the foundation books might be a little dodgy.

.

EDIT: a slightly-related item to add. I heard a video fragment today that was a media interview with Michael Trump, who said that the *blind trust* for the trump assets - the blind trust that donald trump has promised if he is elected - will, in reality, be run by michael & his sister ivanka.

the journo was flabbergasted. How could that arrangement possibly be a blind trust, he asked.

It will be a blind trust because we won't tell our father anything, said michael.


seriously that's what he said. The level of ignorance is stunning. It's worse than sarah palin.

.


----------



## olivaw

^Here is a video clip of one of the blind trust interviews.


----------



## james4beach

The most amazing thing to me is how a crooked, tax evading wealthy man is able to convince poor people living in trailer parks that he's "one of them" and "on their side"

He's a professional con artist. When someone is conned, I don't blame the victim (the voters and American population). I blame the con man.

I also seriously doubt that he's as wealthy as he says. I can see through his bullshit.


----------



## sags

new dog said:


> Trump is a no good pile of crap, we are all aware of this. Maybe not everyone from who posts here. Hillary is also a pile of steaming crap sags which of course you and others here haven't noticed.


They could wheel Hillary Clinton into office in a hospital bed, whispering instructions into Tim Kaine's ear, and stuffing money from Wall Street down her hospital gown and she would still be a more able President than Trump. 

Those are the only two choices Americans have, sad as it may be.


----------



## new dog

I am glad sags, you can see like mordko can sags, that she isn't any good it shows your eyes are open.

I was thinking a year ago that Trump would be a good change but after seeing and hearing him I changed my mind on him. Hillary is even worse for me and I am glad I can't vote in this election


----------



## humble_pie

market is seeing another clinton white house

deutsche bank? yawn

.


----------



## Pluto

humble_pie said:


> market is seeing another clinton white house
> 
> deutsche bank? yawn
> 
> .


yes. This election maybe taking our eye off the ball. Apparently many huge hedge funds are withdrawing from Deutsche bank. I wonder what will happen if and when this lone iceberg bank melts.


----------



## mordko

Deutsche Bank an interesting one. They are still making money but getting a run on the bank isn't pretty. Merkel doesn't want to save it because it would give Italy and France carte blanche to mess with their banks and would put the whole euro project on a fastlane to even more financial trouble. Deutshce falling would have a major impact throughout the financial industry. I'd say 70-30 Germany will be forced to rescue.


----------



## olivaw

Forget Deutsche Bank. Trump knows what's really important. He launched numerous tweets about Alicia Machado early this morning. 


Donald Trump said:


> Did Crooked Hillary help disgusting (check out sex tape and past) Alicia M become a U.S. citizen so she could use her in the debate?


The sex tape may not be a sex tape. It may be a risqué non-nude scene in a Spanish reality TV show.


----------



## mordko

Election slogans of candidates past and present:

- It's the economy, stupid

- Make America work again

- Hope

- Check out sex tape


----------



## TomB19

Alicia Machado is hot.


----------



## olivaw

Not according to Trump


----------



## sags

It seems that around 3 a.m. he starts blasting off unrelated tweet rants like he is drunk or high.


----------



## olivaw

There is a good video of Alicia Machado discussing Donald Trump in the (Left wing) Guardian article. Her English is not perfect but she is very well spoken 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/30/alicia-machado-donald-trump-backlash-smear


----------



## MrsPartridge

It appears that a vote for Clinton is a vote for George Soros. She's his puppet. So it's either Soros or Trump.


----------



## mordko

A vote for Trump is a vote for conspiracy nuts. Which is illustrated nicely ^.


----------



## new dog

MrsPartridge said:


> It appears that a vote for Clinton is a vote for George Soros. She's his puppet. So it's either Soros or Trump.


This is one of the biggest reasons I wouldn't vote for Hillary. Soros is probably the worst person in the world and has the money to change things for the worse.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> It seems that around 3 a.m. he starts blasting off unrelated tweet rants like he is drunk or high.


I can see that happening, it is like me when I post in the early hours after drinking.


----------



## mordko

Not a fan of his politics, but how exactly is Soros the worst person in the world? This reeks of bigotry.


----------



## olivaw

Every time I hear someone mention George Soros, I think of that ridiculous Glenn Beck show about him.


----------



## olivaw

And when I see the Glenn Beck show, I think of this


----------



## new dog

mordko said:


> Not a fan of his politics, but how exactly is Soros the worst person in the world? This reeks of bigotry.



He funds protesters like BLM. He funds and tells people how to be refugees and go to western countries which are now ruining them. He tries to destabilize countries funding radicals and then make money on their falling currencies.

Listen to this short part of a 1998 60 minutes interview of George Soros which I just googled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW8ENFOCeBs

Doesn't sound like a very nice guy does it.


----------



## mordko

As a 14 year old Jewish child hiding from the Nazis in the care of a Hungarian man, Soros accompanied that man when the latter was confiscating Jewish property. That does not make him a Nazi, your link is evil and grotesque. 

And he supports progressive causes, many of which I don't like but "the most evil man"? Really? 

And anyone who is involved in making bets on the market is making money while someone else is losing them. This a fucking financial forum, you should know that.

Overseas he provided billions in grants to former Soviet scientists so that they have something to eat and don't make a bombs for nasty regimes. And he funds democratic courses, sometimes he might be misguided.

The most evil, huh? Give your head a shake.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Welcome to the 21st century


----------



## dotnet_nerd

mordko said:


> As a 14 year old Jewish child hiding from the *Nazis* in the care of a Hungarian man, Soros accompanied that man when the latter was confiscating Jewish property. That does not make him a *Naz*i, your link is evil and grotesque.


Godwin!!!!


----------



## mordko

dotnet_nerd said:


> Godwin!!!!


Read preceding post. Only a very wise man would claim that one can't use the word Nazi when responding to a false and malicious claim about a mans past under the Nazis.


----------



## sags

I wonder if a candidate promised to give every citizen $1,000,000 they wouldn't be overwhelmingly elected.

After all.......in the 1928 Presidential election Herbert Hoover promised a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage.

Long before that.........it was just a chicken.

Henry IV of France promised, "I want there to be no peasant in my realm so poor that he will not have a chicken in his pot every Sunday".


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Henry IV of France promised, "I want there to be no peasant in my realm so poor that he will not have a chicken in his pot every Sunday".


Wanting to help the poor? That's communism with a side of Hitler.

lol!


----------



## new dog

If you listen to the short clip, Soros said yes he helped in confiscating jewish land and didn't feel that bad about it, sure he was 14 but that still doesn't sound good to me and I will leave it at that.


----------



## olivaw

The San Diego Union Tribune has endorsed every Republican presidential candidate since 1868. This year it's editorial board is backing Hillary Clinton. 



> Trump could be our Chávez, our Kirchner. We cannot take that risk.
> 
> This paper has not endorsed a Democrat for president in its 148-year history. But we endorse Clinton. She’s the safe choice for the U.S. and for the world, for Democrats and Republicans alike.


http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...endorsement-for-president-20160929-story.html


----------



## mordko

new dog said:


> If you listen to the short clip, Soros said yes he helped in confiscating jewish land and didn't feel that bad about it, sure he was 14 but that still doesn't sound good to me and I will leave it at that.


Will try to type slower. He was a Jewish boy trying to survive the Nazis by concealing his identity. As part of his disguise he accompanied adults who were doing the confiscations. Who the hell are you to condemn?


----------



## new dog

He is a good person and does good work around the world, which sounds better. Luckily he is backing Hillary so she gets more money to help her win the election, which is good if anyone wants her to win.


----------



## sags

Trump gave an interview on the Bill O'Reilly Fox News show.

Trump seemed rational and calm, but included in almost every answer he continually talks about how great his company is.

O'Reilly had to interject a a couple of times to keep Trump on track.

Even in the debates he talked about violence in Chicago, and he has great properties there..........and North Carolina, and he has great properties there and then about his new Washington hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue.

Trump never talks about what he can do for anyone else. He has no vision for anyone else. It is all about Trump and his family.

He just isn't the best choice for the job. I doubt Trump would hire Trump for this job.

I also cannot envision Trump leaving all his business to be run by Ivanka and Don Jr.

In his deposition he said he has given them more responsibilities but he has the final say on everything.

I doubt he could allow his business to be operated as a blind trust, and that would inevitably be a problem.


----------



## sags

Clinton got a big boost from the first debate.

I expect Trump will be better prepared for the next one, but he is already ignoring his campaign team and talking about Bill Clinton's affairs.

That is a subject that would blow up on him given his own past history, and Clinton has far superior debating skills.

When asked a question Trump becomes unfocused and random in his reply. Clinton answers in one short sentence and then seamlessly pivots to what she wants to talk about for the remainder of her allotted time.

Mark Cuban told Bill O'Reilly that we couldn't hear it on the broadcast, but people in the live debate audience were laughing at some of Trump's answers and it was irritating him and putting him off message.

Perhaps Trump would be better off cancelling the remaining debates and campaigning to his base in the swing states.

On the stump, is where Trump is best. The random and unfocused speeches are wildly cheered in that environment.

I think that is about the only chance he has to win.......albeit a long shot at this point.


----------



## heyjude

I watched "The Choice" on PBS. A detailed Frontline biography of both candidates. Very interesting.

I learnt that Trump has been musing about campaigning for the presidency since the 1980s, that when Obama made fun of him at the White House Press Corps dinner in 2012 he got really mad and decided to go for it, initially as a publicity stunt to bolster his brand. He was as surprised as anyone else to find the level of support that he has. 

I learnt that Hillary was becoming a political star herself around 1970, but unexpectedly failed her bar exam in Washington DC. She passed in Arkansas and decided to join boyfriend Bill there. They formed a team, knowing they could achieve more together than individually. She had to make many compromises to support his career in conservative Arkansas but their understanding was that it would be her turn later. His infidelities must have been close to the last straw, but she stuck with the team to further her long term goal. 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-choice-2016/


----------



## SMK

I watched it also and learnt a couple of things myself. 

Very cold and calculating individuals. Feel sorry for them both to tell the truth.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Perhaps Trump would be better off cancelling the remaining debates and campaigning to his base in the swing states.
> 
> On the stump, is where Trump is best. The random and unfocused speeches are wildly cheered in that environment.
> 
> I think that is about the only chance he has to win.......albeit a long shot at this point.


It has been mentioned that one more Benghazi related finding is scheduled to come out, just before the election. Everything said so far about the hearings has been crap so it's tough to know if this will be too.

It would take quite a revelation to stop Hillary now.


----------



## olivaw

We still have 37 days to go with 2 debates and a VP debate. It isn't over yet. 

The momentum is with Hillary and this was a terrible week for Trump. 
- He lost the debate to a healthier looking opponent (she even did the Hillary Shimmy - start humming Tom)
- More news about financial and possibly legal irregularities at the Trump Foundation
- The Cuba story
- A number of Republican and noncommittal newspapers endorsed Clinton or said anybody-but-Trump. 
- Trump spent a large part of the week talking about Alicia Machado 
- Trump is going after Bill Clinton's infidelities. Dumb, dumb, dumb. 

Revelations about Hillary and/or Benghazi will come. We just won't know if they are true because there have been too many false allegations.


----------



## andrewf

You can tell whether Trump is not listening to his advisors when he goes on his midnight twitter tirades. Sad!


----------



## heyjude

olivaw said:


> Revelations about Hillary and/or Benghazi will come. We just won't know if they are true because there have been too many false allegations.


There have been eight (8) inquiries into Benghazi. It would be amazing if something major had been missed. And eight seems a little excessive, TBH.


----------



## humble_pie

the 3 am twitter tirades are more than sad. They are ghastly. What is this, some sex-obsessed DOM (dirty or drunk, take your pick.)

i can hardly believe america has stooped so low. An elected donald trump will be the joke butt of the entire planet. Enemies of the united states - we can now include newly elected president duterte of the philippines among them - must be drooling at the opportunity they will have if such a power vacuum occurs in washington.

.


----------



## new dog

Duterte has an approval rating of 91 percent. The crime and corruption had become so bad that people elected him to stop it. This is what happens when things get out of control no matter what it is and people want it stopped and anything can happen.


----------



## olivaw

Heyjude mentioned above that Trump initially ran to bolster his brand. Joe Biden says something similar at 2:00.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> Clinton got a big boost from the first debate.
> 
> I expect Trump will be better prepared for the next one, but he is already ignoring his campaign team and talking about Bill Clinton's affairs.


Unfortunately, people like Trump think that shock value is a good thing. For true leaders, it's a death knell. Leaders need to be seen as stable, tactful and respectful people.


----------



## james4beach

Since Trump likes shock value, he'll probably love this article that the NY Times put out Saturday night:

Trump Tax Records Obtained by The Times Reveal He Could Have Avoided Paying Taxes for Nearly Two Decades

A leaked tax document, also identified as legitimate by the tax preparer himself, shows that Trump filed $916 million in tax losses in 1995. This loss could have then (legally) cancelled out taxes and freed him from paying taxes for the next 18 years.


----------



## TomB19

I'd like to see a few of Trump's policy ideas implemented. Not the wall. That appeals to morons. His views on trade might have saved the working class of the country. He probably could have done some done some damage to congress and perhaps helped them shape up and fly a little straighter.

... but he's gone. He has the temperament of a cab drive stuck in gridlock traffic. He simply isn't fit and that's a shame. The US would be stronger with two viable candidates.

Hillary was lucky to run against Trump. She would have lost to a better candidate. As it is, she looks almost certain to be the next POTUS.

I'd love it if Hillary would appoint Donald as her Congress czar. He could smear people in congress with his made up garbage and shake things up a bit. It's an amusing thought. lol!


----------



## james4beach

It seems that Trump is a really shitty businessman. Here's a history of his estimated net worth
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ure-out-how-much-trump-worth-20-years/349875/

First observation. He lost about $1 billion in 1995, which was about HALF of his net worth at that time.

Going back further to 1988, he was worth around $2 billion. Since then, a 50/50 mix of US stocks and bonds would have returned 10x the initial amount, meaning he'd be worth $20 billion today if he had _conservatively invested his capital_. This isn't even counting the years of income he's had since then. But even Trump's assertion of wealth is much less than this ... only $7 billion.

Meaning that for all his business "acumen", Trump has done considerably worse with his money than a 50/50 balanced fund.


----------



## olivaw

Trump's campaign may be happy that the NY Times published a piece about his taxes - if they can use it to convince him to tweet about taxes instead of sex scandals. It may not be good for him, but it will be less embarrassing for his surrogates.


----------



## ronkaka01

*tôi nghĩ là bà Hillary Clinton*

tôi nghĩ là bà Hillary Clinton


----------



## humble_pie

whatever have they done with nelley & bass, they've disappeared


----------



## olivaw

.^ binge watching General Hospital?


----------



## bass player

james4beach said:


> Since Trump likes shock value, he'll probably love this article that the NY Times put out Saturday night:
> 
> Trump Tax Records Obtained by The Times Reveal He Could Have Avoided Paying Taxes for Nearly Two Decades
> 
> A leaked tax document, also identified as legitimate by the tax preparer himself, shows that Trump filed $916 million in tax losses in 1995. This loss could have then (legally) cancelled out taxes and freed him from paying taxes for the next 18 years.


It's a federal offence for a third party to release someone's private tax records, but as we all know, the rules don't apply to the Trump haters. Obama probably had his lackeys in the IRS cough up the information, and of course, no one will be held accountable for breaking the law.

In addition, the fact that the New York Times reports net losses on a regular basis and also doesn't pay tax probably escapes all the hypocrites.

Continue with your desperate bashing...


----------



## sags

Trump filed a deduction for losses that carry forward. Nothing more than a lot of businesses and investors do all the time.

Given that Trump is saying the tax system is rigged and he will fix it, he would have been wise to reveal these losses at the start of his campaign as an illustration of how the tax system favors corporations and the wealthy. Early in the campaign, he would have been the "champion" for the cause.

Having it revealed as it has been, makes him look like a fraudster who says he will make changes but really has no intention of doing so.

The question remains if the deductions were legal, which given the timing of the release may be part of the current IRS audit.

Lastly, whoever revealed the tax information should be held accountable for breaching Mr. Trump's privacy.


----------



## sags

This election is a pathetic display of broken democracy.

Imagine our own candidates stooping to such campaign tactics. 

As a strategy it has been mildly tested in Canada, but was immediately rebuked by the voters.


----------



## andrewf

No one leaked Hillary's tax filings because she publicly released them. Trump did not think the American public deserved to know how bad a businessman he is, given that he has been skating for twenty years on a gigantic tax loss. Donald Trump is a pathetic loser.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> It's a federal offence for a third party to release someone's private tax records, but as we all know, the rules don't apply to the Trump haters. Obama probably had his lackeys in the IRS cough up the information, and of course, no one will be held accountable for breaking the law.
> 
> In addition, the fact that the New York Times reports net losses on a regular basis and also doesn't pay tax probably escapes all the hypocrites.
> 
> Continue with your desperate bashing...




it was hillary clinton herself, not the NY Times, who popped the information during the debate that donald trump's tax returns for 2 years in the mid-90s were public information because he had been required to release these in connection with a license matter for one of his casinos.

it appears the NY Times recently went further & engaged a firm of CAs to forensically study those same casino-related public records from 2 decades ago.

if the above is true - & the evidence hangs together lock-step - then it is futile to attack a non-existent party who is thought to have "illegally" released trump's tax returns.

alas, "trumping up" a false accusation is bass player's signature ploy. Like all his other accusations, this one will likely fail fast.


.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> it was hillary clinton herself, not the NY Times, who popped the information during the debate that donald trump's tax returns for 2 years in the mid-90s were public information because he had been required to release these in connection with a license matter for one of his casinos.
> 
> it appears the NY Times recently went further & engaged a firm of CAs to forensically study those same casino-related public records from 2 decades ago.
> 
> if the above is true - & the evidence hangs together lock-step - then it is futile to attack a non-existent party who is thought to have "illegally" released trump's tax returns.
> 
> alas, "trumping up" a false accusation is bass player's signature ploy. Like all his other accusations, this one will likely fail fast.


Actually, the New York Times story specifically states: "The 1995 tax records, never before disclosed...", so it appears that I was right and you either didn't read the story, or you did read it but deliberately chose to lie. Which one is it?

Also, please tell us why it's okay for the New York Times to declare a loss and not pay tax, but it's not okay for Trump to do so?


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> Trump filed a deduction for losses that carry forward. Nothing more than a lot of businesses and investors do all the time.
> 
> Given that Trump is saying the tax system is rigged and he will fix it, he would have been wise to reveal these losses at the start of his campaign as an illustration of how the tax system favors corporations and the wealthy. Early in the campaign, he would have been the "champion" for the cause.
> 
> Having it revealed as it has been, makes him look like a fraudster who says he will make changes but really has no intention of doing so.
> 
> The question remains if the deductions were legal, which given the timing of the release may be part of the current IRS audit.
> 
> Lastly, whoever revealed the tax information should be held accountable for breaching Mr. Trump's privacy.


Trump claims to be a shrewd businessman, it's the linchpin of his campaign. Showing that he hasn't made any profit over a 20-year period and was therefore "economical with the truth" is in the national interest. 

With regards to accountability - we are not lawyers and it's not for us to decide. Mr Trump has a few and is not afraid to use them, dare I say we'll find out whether it was legal or not.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Actually, the New York Times story specifically states: "The 1995 tax records, never before disclosed...", so it appears that I was right and you either didn't read the story, or you did read it but deliberately chose to lie. Which one is it?
> 
> Also, please tell us why it's okay for the New York Times to declare a loss and not pay tax, but it's not okay for Trump to do so?



alas you are the one who is making up preposterous fairy tales, as usual.

read the article again. At no point does the New York Times state that it is the primary source which is exclusively breaking the story for the first time.

perhaps you could find an MD with an epiPen to supervise your fiction? some kind of truth serum ...

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> alas you are the one who is making up preposterous fairy tales, as usual.
> 
> read the article again. At no point does the New York Times state that it is the primary source which is exclusively breaking the story for the first time.
> 
> perhaps you could find an MD with an epiPen to supervise your fiction? some kind of truth serum ...
> 
> .


What part of "never before disclosed" do you have a hard time understanding? Those are the New York Times own words, not mine.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> What part of "never before disclosed" do you have a hard time understanding?



exactly. What part of "never before disclosed" do *you* have a hard time understanding?

disclosed by whom, that is the question. The NY Times is carefully *not* claiming that it was the primary source.

BTW whatever is someone like yourself doing, relying on MSM such as the venerable new york times?

you are supposed to avoid MSM, remember? if cited at all, you are supposed to point out how duplicitous MSM are. How everything published by MSM is false. How MSM are promulgating lies in order to trap americans into voting for the aliens once again.

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> exactly. What part of "never before disclosed" do *you* have a hard time understanding?
> 
> disclosed by whom, that is the question. The NY Times is carefully *not* claiming that it was the primary source.
> 
> BTW whatever is someone like yourself doing, relying on MSM such as the venerable new york times?
> 
> you are supposed to avoid MSM, remember? if cited at all, you are supposed to point out how duplicitous MSM are. How everything published by MSM is false. How MSM are promulgating lies in order to trap americans into voting for the aliens once again.
> 
> .


James4beach linked the article. I simply pointed out that the New York Times broke the law by publishing private tax information, and that they also report losses and don't pay taxes themselves, which makes them hypocrites. I don't "rely" on the New York Times, but I have the right to point out their hypocrisy.

Stop twisting yourself into knots trying to spin it as if I'm the bad guy.. Here are 2 well known facts:
1. Releasing private tax information is a felony.
2. The New York Times also reports a loss and doesn't pay tax.


----------



## andrewf

3. Donald Trump is so great in business, he is as successful as the NYT! Almost as good as myspace and Nortel!


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> I simply pointed out that the New York Times broke the law by publishing private tax information ... Releasing private tax information is a felony.



the NY Times did not break any law. The NY Times did not commit any felony.

those mid-1990s tax returns were already public documents. Journalists researching stories have a professional obligation to recover & review all pertinent information from public sources.

any public non-copyrighted document can be cited by anyone. We benefit from a free press, remember?

.


----------



## olivaw

I don't think the NY Times did anything wrong, but Trump will unleash his lawyers on the Old Gray Lady and test the matter. 

As andrewf has mentioned a couple of times, the massive financial loss will hurt Trump's campaign more than his tax rate. Part of his schtick is that he always wins yet the NY Times has shown him losing.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Part of his schtick is that he always wins yet the NY Times has shown him losing.


They cherry picked 1 year out of 50, so that translates to a 98% success rate.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> They cherry picked 1 year out of 50, so that translates to a 98% success rate.


Not exactly, they used the only data point they have, disclosed only because Trump was forced to.
He's keeping the rest secret as long as he possibly can, but he's under the microscope now.


----------



## indexxx

As secret as his plans for fixing everything?


----------



## sags

I am obviously not a Trump fan, but to be fair.............

Donald Trump didn't create all these tax loopholes for the wealthy and corporations, and the fact that he utilizes what is available for his business isn't earth shattering news.

Warren Buffet's Berkshire fund has deferred billions of dollars in taxes for decades.

General Electric filed a tax return so large it couldn't be sent in paper form and was submitted electronically. They paid no taxes.

Apple Corporation has billions stashed in offshore accounts to avoid taxes.

The problem is that the tax deductions exist...........not that Trump took advantage of them.

This quoted billion dollar loss was largely real estate valuation write downs. Many businesses write down their assets when they drop in value.

Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are talking about raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations.

Donald Trump is saying the system is rigged in favor of the wealthy and corporations.

All this does is prove Trump is right. Raising the tax rate is a useless gesture with loopholes that eliminate paying any tax at all.

If politicians really want to make the system more fair.......institute a graduated flat tax and eliminate all deductions.


----------



## bass player

Just imagine if the media put half as much effort into digging into Hillary's past and treated her the same way. Right now all they have on Trump is a 20 year old tax return and a 20 year old comment, both which are meaningless when compared to Hillary's past.

They are desperate in the Hillary camp and it shows. Even with a fully compliant media in their court and willing to lie for them, they are still losing.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Something odd occurred to me last night. If you even suggest that Muslim immigrants ought to be checked for terrorist tendencies, Hillary supporters lose their minds. But if Hillary blasts them to hell with drones and bombs in their homes that's ok.


----------



## sags

First time I have seen CNN anchors push back so much on the spin that Clinton supporters are putting on these revelations.

The three pages don't reveal a whole lot...........other than that one line about the deduction.

And I notice............and don't know if it matters, but on the line where it is recorded the numbers don't appear to align themselves.

The first two numbers are below the rest of them, almost looking like an odometer than has been tampered with.

It looks an awful lot like the numbers may have been photo shopped.

Just saying............take a look for yourselves.

View attachment 11826


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

You may be onto something. It looks the same on every line as if someone added a -1, -90, -91 and farther down, -91 to the bottom line. The only line of figures without this misalignment is line 22 in which the first 3 digits are low, and the third digit is printed more heavily as if struck twice.


----------



## olivaw

The misalignment of the numbers was explained by Trump's (now retired) tax accountant. His software couldn't print the entire number so he added part with a typewriter. 

People are not complaining about him using the tax code to his advantage. They are bemused by how much money he lost. It's a big loss for a guy who says he always wins.


----------



## andrewf

He's a terrible businessman. No one in the US will lend him any money. He mostly earns an income by pimping out his name to competent businesses.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> He's a terrible businessman. No one in the US will lend him any money. He mostly earns an income by pimping out his name to competent businesses.


People sell their name all the time...take a look next time you go shopping. Famous people have their names on everything.

At least if you're going to attack him, do it from a position of knowledge instead of ignorance.


----------



## andrewf

He pretends he runs these businesses. He does not. He's not a successful capitalist, he just plays one on TV. He's no Elon Musk, Mark Cuban or Warren Buffet.


----------



## new dog

What is going on in Syria and why is the US so interested in upping the campaign there. Sure we will say it is to get rid of ISIS or Assad or whatever and all kinds of crap but Obama should just leave the place alone. The next president while being tough will have to know when to leave things alone because Russia is drawing a line in the sand and if we push to hard it could be very bad for the whole world. Obama's efforts against ISIS over the years has been close to useless and it would be better just to stay out of it.

Sure some will say Russia this and Russia that but really the US is the one creating the chaos all over the middle east. Russia was creating the chaos many years ago when they invaded Afghanistan and helped the Iran and Iraq war keep going so they are not to be trusted either.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> They cherry picked 1 year out of 50, so that translates to a 98% success rate.


 If you lose a billion 1 year and make a million 49 years, do you really have a 98% success rate?


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> He pretends he runs these businesses. He does not. He's not a successful capitalist, he just plays one on TV. He's no Elon Musk, Mark Cuban or Warren Buffet.


For one thing he inherited the money. In that respect, he did ok in as much as the family business is still alive and it looks like will be passed on to the next generation. He should really be measured against a local butcher rather than any of the above. My butcher is way nicer.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> If you lose a billion 1 year and make a million 49 years, do you really have a 98% success rate?


Do you know what he made the other 49 years?

Is Elon Musk successful? He doesn't earn a profit or pay taxes and consumes tens of million in government subsidies.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Do you know what he made the other 49 years?
> 
> Is Elon Musk successful? He doesn't earn a profit or pay taxes and consumes tens of million in government subsidies.


Elon Musk is an entrepreneur getting a job done, there's no comparison; Trump is an inheritance-money parasite on society, making his payday all about stealing from working blue collar folks :stupid:


----------



## new dog

Hey give Bass a break we miss him on this thread. You have to enjoy his attempts at taking the other side of the argument.


----------



## mrPPincer

I do appreciate the effort


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> Do you know what he made the other 49 years?


I don't but there is a reason why he isn't reporting his taxes like every singe presidential candidate has done. Let me give you a clue: it's not because he makes lots of money and pays lots of taxes. We know he paid zero in the two years for which information is now available. 



> Is Elon Musk successful? He doesn't earn a profit or pay taxes and consumes tens of million in government subsidies.


^ Musk didn't do too bad for himself and whatever he achieved, he did it himself. He is an immigrant and his dad was an engineer from South Africa rather than a real estate mogul from New York. He created something from scratch and is a visionary. I wouldn't touch Tesla shares but one has to admire the acumen.


----------



## TomB19

I haven't seen Nelley in a while. He's likely busy extolling the virtues of HIV to the red cross who's broken communist ways demand they screen it out of the blood supply.


----------



## andrewf

I'm not sold on Tesla (at least at its current valuation), but I would be pretty comfortable owning a stake in SpaceX.


----------



## Eder

andrewf said:


> He pretends he runs these businesses. He does not. He's not a successful capitalist, he just plays one on TV. He's no Elon Musk, Mark Cuban or Warren Buffet.


Measly 4 billion...who's he trying to kid?


----------



## olivaw

^unless he isn't telling the truth about that either.


----------



## humble_pie

*the Bush family defects en masse from donald trump's campaign*

.
former US president & clan patriarch George H.W. Bush said last month that he intends to vote for hillary clinton.

Dubya has not endorsed trump while brother Jeb - a rival for the republican nomination - has said he won't vote for donald trump.

now the bush grandchildren are signing out of the GOP. Dubya's daughter barbara bush attended a saturday night fund-raiser for hillary clinton in paris.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...er-hillary-clinton-fundraiser-paris/91435644/
.

_(here's proof she dresses better now that she's a democrat. But OMG she looks like her dad)_
.











.


----------



## andrewf

Eder said:


> Measly 4 billion...who's he trying to kid?


Indeed, even if he's not lying, it's a pathetic return (he'd have done better buying the S&P 500).


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Indeed, even if he's not lying, it's a pathetic return (he'd have done better buying the S&P 500).


To be fair, that's not what family business is about.


----------



## new dog

Bloomberg wonders if trump can recover from his worst week ever. How do they know this, he has had a lot of worst weeks ever.

Humble, Bush and Clinton are almost the same, except for the party they are with, so it comes as no surprise that they would back Hillary. Jeb Bush or Hillary would have been the same thing and the slam dunk pick of wall street and whoever else has influence over the system.


----------



## mordko

^ Jeb is pro-trade and pro-free market. Hillary is pro-big-nanny-state, $15 minimum wage. She also, having helped to negotiate TPP, now presents herself as anti-trade. Hillary has a track record of being economical with the truth. Not at all the same. 

But neither is a conspiracy theory junkie, neither is a misogynist, neither allows him/herself racist statements.


----------



## Eclectic12

mordko said:


> mordko said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you lose a billion 1 year and make a million 49 years, do you really have a 98% success rate?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't but there is a reason why he isn't reporting his taxes like every singe presidential candidate has done ...
Click to expand...

Which when one also factors in his previous criticism of candidates who did not release tax return then praised the candidate when the returns were released - never mind his statement that he *would* release his tax returns ... it makes one wonder why what he wanted from others what he is so far, refusing to do.


Cheers


----------



## olivaw

The *worst week* for a presidential candidate continues on Monday. 

The Associated Press reported that Trump's behaviour on the set of "The Apprentice" was *boorish and sexist*.

The Center for Public Integrity alleged that Trump *rented office space* to an Iranian bank with ties to terrorism.

New York AG ordered the Trump Foundation to immediately *halt fundraising* in the state.

The *Politico/Morning Consult poll* shows Hillary Clinton surging by 5 points after the debate. 

A new poll shows Clinton is now *up 7 points* in swing-state Virginia .

... and the day ain't over yet.


----------



## bass player

olivaw:

Trump rented space to an Iranian bank, but Hillary collected $10 million in donations from Saudi Arabia...a country that treats women like possessions.
Trump was called boorish and sexist, but Bill Clinton has had 14 accusations of sexual assault levied against him and Hillary publicly attacked the women who dared to speak up. She also willingly accepts donations from woman hating Saudi Arabia.

No one cares about left wing media spin and cherry picking. People can see through the lies.


----------



## new dog

I agree with what bass said but I am sure none of this will matter to the media, except what Trump does. I am sure the debates question are being prepared for Trump to do more explaining but Hillary should get a pass.


----------



## olivaw

"_Left wing media spin and cherry picking_" - Trump supporter code for "_ummm, ummm, ummm_". :cat:


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> "_Left wing media spin and cherry picking_" - Trump supporter code for "_ummm, ummm, ummm_".


I think you are referring to the left wing chant of "right wing conspiracy" every time one of yours is caught in a lie or fraudulent activity...


----------



## Eder

It is pretty obvious media is on a spin regarding Trump.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> I think you are referring to the left wing chant of "right wing conspiracy" every time one of yours is caught in a lie or fraudulent activity...


That doesn't happen much on the left side. It does happen but it's infrequent. Worse still is that right wing nut jobs bring up conspiracies so often it's easy to dismiss everything negative that is said. When the fact checkers prove the nut jobs are lying, nut jobs just say the fact checkers are part of a conspiracy.

Republican fact checkers literally confirmed that Obama is the devil. Objectively, the Republican party is whacko.

I really wish the Republican party would get it's act together and stop being the party of crazy. The problem seems to be that the radical people have stronger personalities and are able to drive out the sensibles in the Republican party.


----------



## bass player

Sure Tom...keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> I think you are referring to the left wing chant of "right wing conspiracy" every time one of yours is caught in a lie or fraudulent activity...


Wrong again. The conspiracy theory comment is the response you should expect when you post fringe nonsense about a hole in Hillary Clinton's tongue, Dr. epi-pen and Parkinson's disease.


----------



## humble_pie

on the other hand one can say it's a good thing the clumsy, grimacing goofball with the motor mouth stumbled onto the scene when he did.

alt-Right is a carbuncle that should be lanced now. Many prominent republicans have already bolted. As others in this thread have pointed out, it's berserk that a rich playboy flake believes he can represent the workers of america.

now is a once-a-lifetime opportunity for the GOP to implode & sweep clean. Then build itself back into the respected Grand Old Party, the party that once signed so proudly in philadelphia.

.


----------



## bass player

The main difference between the Democrats and Republicans is that at least the Republicans know that Trump is not the best choice...but they at least know that he is better than corrupt Hillary.

The Democrats, on the other hand, refuse to admit they backed the most corrupt politician in US history and every day they have to make excuses or lie to themselves rather than admit their mistake. When her law breaking and corruption are pointed out, they simply go into denial mode.

So, have at it...keep attacking Trump. It won't do any good, but maybe it keeps you from having to think about Hillary.


----------



## new dog

If we were able to do an experiment and flip the Trump baggage to Hillary and the Hillary bag too Trump what would happen?

E-mails, Clinton foundation and even the health thing would become a real issue whether it was or not and Trump would go to jail or have to drop out.

Trump university and all his junk would become conspiracy theories and dismissed on the Clinton side. 

Also all arguments on this thread would be flipped and we would be talking about how bad the e-mails are and the Clinton foundation is and so on. The majority would also be talking about Trumps health like it was a huge issue. I personally don't buy the Hillary health stuff but it would be an issue here if it was attached to Trump.


----------



## mordko

^ all that information is widely available. While most journalists likely oppose Trump simply because most educated people do, there are also various Hannities and Breitbarts and Russia Today which you are welcome to enjoy. 

People listen to whoever they want to, it's not like in Canada, where taxpayer funded CBC is dominating political coverage on radio and TV. So, I am not sure what exactly your problem is here.


----------



## new dog

I don't understand anything you just said if you are talking to me. I was making a point about how the media would play it and how some would go along with it on here.


----------



## sags

Would people hire a house painter with 40 years of experience, or someone with no experience who claims to paint like Rembrandt ?


----------



## new dog

Can't argue with that.


----------



## new dog

You know I have heard that Hillary has an earpiece to receive info during the debate and have heard that somehow she gets info in her eyes or something during the debate.

Trump should use electric shocks during the debates. Every time he goes off course or does stuff he shouldn't do he gets shocked. I think this would give him a big advantage.


----------



## indexxx

new dog said:


> You know I have heard that Hillary has an earpiece to receive info during the debate and have heard that somehow she gets info in her eyes or something during the debate.
> 
> Trump should use electric shocks during the debates. Every time he goes off course or does stuff he shouldn't do he gets shocked. I think this would give him a big advantage.


Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZag1zlecGI


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> You know I have heard that Hillary has an earpiece to receive info during the debate and have heard that somehow she gets info in her eyes or something during the debate.
> 
> Trump should use electric shocks during the debates. Every time he goes off course or does stuff he shouldn't do he gets shocked. I think this would give him a big advantage.


"I'm hearing things!"

Hillary cheated so much, I hear she actually did research and considered what she might say in advance!


----------



## new dog

Indexxx maybe you could do Trump a favour and send that link to him, that is exactly what he needs. Only I think for Trump the shock power would need to be much higher.

Andrewf she is stupid and told everyone including Trump during the debate that she did that.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> ... she [hillary clinton] is stupid and told everyone including Trump during the debate that she did that.



did what, acording to you? 

.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Would people hire a house painter with 40 years of experience, or someone with no experience who claims to paint like Rembrandt ?


I would rather hire a younger painter with newer techniques than one with 40 years experience, plus how old might he or she be? :biggrin:


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> ^ all that information is widely available. While most journalists likely oppose Trump simply because most educated people do, there are also various Hannities and Breitbarts and Russia Today which you are welcome to enjoy.
> 
> People listen to whoever they want to, it's not like in Canada, where taxpayer funded CBC is dominating political coverage on radio and TV. So, I am not sure what exactly your problem is here.


Right..."educated people oppose Trump". Your comment reaffirms the progressive arrogance that only they know what's best. Take your elitist attitude and stuff it. Education has nothing to do with intelligence.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Would people hire a house painter with 40 years of experience, or someone with no experience who claims to paint like Rembrandt ?


Sometimes 40 years of "experience" is just 1 year repeated 39 times. In Hillary's long career, she has not accomplished a single thing worthy of note. In fact, many people argue that she has done more harm than good.


----------



## SMK

From the time Clinton was campaign manager for her husband back in the 1980s, then First Lady of Arkansas, she has been disliked, that has not changed despite her 40 plus years in politics. 

She should be the favorite by a landslide, but as of now she's barely ahead of Trump despite his horrific week. Both septuageranians are tormented by their ambitions, according to the tormented Assange.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Sometimes 40 years of "experience" is just 1 year repeated 39 times. In Hillary's long career, she has not accomplished a single thing worthy of note. In fact, many people argue that she has done more harm than good.



the above does not disqualify anyone from running for US president. We knew you'd come around to our pov sooner or later.


.


----------



## Eder

sags said:


> Would people hire a house painter with 40 years of experience, or someone with no experience who claims to paint like Rembrandt ?


It depends ...if the experienced house painter was only going to slap a fresh coat of off white on, while the other was going to strip off everything to plaster & start over.

Two different choices that appeal to different parts of America...neither are horrible or brilliant.


----------



## sags

_Congressman Willard Vandiver in 1899, declared that "I come from a state that raises corn and cotton, cockleburrs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I'm from Missouri, and you have got to show me."_

Trump has no experience or accomplishments to show the voters.

He is like a newly minted graduate who doesn't want an entry level job at IBM. He wants the CEO job.

Electing Donald Trump as President would be like..................

View attachment 11914


----------



## olivaw

Joe Biden comments on Trump's lack of knowledge - '_His ignorance is so profound_'


----------



## olivaw

Fivethirtyeight has Clinton odds of winning in November up to 73.6%. The turning point was the debate. 








The VP debate is tonight. Clinton and Trump face off for the second time on Sunday (Oct 9). The final debate is on Wednesday Oct 19.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Joe Biden comments on Trump's lack of knowledge - '_His ignorance is so profound_'


Biden sits there in silence while the worst president in history issues Executive Order after Executive Order running the country like a third world dictator. His opinion is worthless...


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> Indexxx maybe you could do Trump a favour and send that link to him, that is exactly what he needs. Only I think for Trump the shock power would need to be much higher.
> 
> Andrewf she is stupid and told everyone including Trump during the debate that she did that.


Some people think doing your homework is a good thing.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Biden sits there in silence while the worst president in history issues Executive Order after Executive Order running the country like a third world dictator. His opinion is worthless...


Where's that eyeroll emoticon?


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Where's that eyeroll emoticon?


Didn't you just say that doing your homework is a good thing? Why don't you do some actual research on Obama instead of simply dismissing everything that you don't agree with?


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> Where's that eyeroll emoticon?


To get the eyeroll emoticon you can type the word _rolleyes_ between two colons. (like this but without the space _:roll eyes:_)

For example:


bass player said:


> blah blah blah *Hillary* blah blah blah *Obama* blah blah blah *Benghazi* blah blah blah *left wing media conspiracy*


----------



## bass player

olivaw:

Your "facts" come from whatever the leftist media tells you. Everything they print is accepted as undisputed fact and everything that comes from the other side is completely dismissed.

That's why trying to reason with you is a losing battle....your progressive mind is unable to have an opinion of its own.


----------



## olivaw

*Wikileaks Document Release*

*Trump backers realize they’ve been played as WikiLeaks fails to deliver October surprise*



> Over the course of two hours on Tuesday — with the world’s media and bleary-eyed Trump die-hards across the United States tuning in — Assange and other WikiLeaks officials railed against “neo-McCarthyist hysteria,” blasted the mainstream media, appealed for donations and plugged their books (“40 percent off!”).
> 
> But what they didn’t do was provide any new information about Clinton — or about anything else, really.
> 
> The much-vaunted news conference, as it turned out, was little more than an extended infomercial for WikiLeaks on the occasion of the 10th anniversary of its founding.


Perhaps another day then.


----------



## sags

Considerations of Trump as President have become a 24 hour comedy special.

Trump says if he loses he might not concede. 

If a person refuses to accept defeat......is he still defeated ?


----------



## mordko

KGBleaks will deliver something or other. If nothing else, they'll just make it up.


----------



## mordko

We need for Trump to not just lose. He needs to be humiliated at the ballot box. And the Republican party should learn the lesson and change the dumb system so that the next time one moron can't win nomination by splitting the field.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> KGBleaks will deliver something or other. If nothing else, they'll just make it up.


Wikileaks is promising to release relevant material on November 8th.

"The material that WikiLeaks is going to publish before the end of the year is of ... a very significant moment in different directions, affecting three powerful organizations in three different states as well as ... the U.S election process," he said via a video link at an event marking the group's 10th anniversary.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecuador-sweden-assange-idUSKCN1240UG


----------



## bass player

Based on the seemingly non-stop corruption that Hillary engages in, her and her handlers must be worried sick that something that even her most devoted followers would find disgusting may come out.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> did what, acording to you?
> 
> .


Sorry Humble and Andrewf my comment about Hillary being stupid was during the comedy break on the thread. I was joking and not being serious.


----------



## andrewf

Wikileaks is behaving extremely suspiciously. If they were following their stated goal of exposing corruption as journalists acting in the public interest, etc. they would release any damaging info they have now. Saying they have devastating info but will release it later smacks of a desire to manipulate the political process in the US. If that is their goal, everyone should be deeply suspicious of their motives.


----------



## olivaw

The 2016 vice presidential debate between Mike Pence (R) and Tim Kaine (D) will be on CNN at 9:00 PM ET. It is also being streamed by Fox, PBS, NBC, Telemundo, Washington Post, Twitter and Facebook.

and here:





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp7Aodufh-M


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Wikileaks is behaving extremely suspiciously. If they were following their stated goal of exposing corruption as journalists acting in the public interest, etc. they would release any damaging info they have now. Saying they have devastating info but will release it later smacks of a desire to manipulate the political process in the US. If that is their goal, everyone should be deeply suspicious of their motives.


If Hillary did something else wrong that damages her election bid, then it's all on her, not WikiLeaks. Blaming the messenger does not absolve her. CNN has just spent 2 days whining about one of Trump's tax returns from 20 years ago, but has been completely unwilling to look into any of Hillary's misdeeds.

If something devastating comes out, she deserves all the attention it would get...even if it is on the day before or the day of the election. It would be a minor step in levelling the very slanted media coverage she has enjoyed.


----------



## indexxx

humble_pie said:


> did what, acording to you?
> 
> .


She told T-Rump that she prepared for the debate (and to be President).


----------



## sags

From the VP debate........

I learned that Mike Pence should be the GOP nominee.

I also learned that neither side has any clue on how to deal with Russia, North Korea or Assad.


----------



## olivaw

Good VP debate tonight, a lot of solid policy discussion between all the zingers and the attacks. 

IMHO Tim Kayne hammered Trump but he seemed rehearsed at times. Mike Pence made some solid points too but he looked uncomfortable when asked to defend Trump.


----------



## sags

It seems to me that if the US established a safe zone around Aleppo, fortified the defenses and enacted a no fly zone, it would send a message to Russia, North Korea, Assad and Iran that the US was getting serious.

If Russia or Syria violate the safe zone or no fly zone they should be escorted out of the area and if they refuse they should be shot down.

It would send a message around the world that testing the US resolve would mean casualties.

The US is by far the strongest military in the world, but it isn't worth much if they aren't willing to use it.


----------



## sags

For North Korea, maybe send the glorious leader a message and a copy of this video clip.

Continue with your nuclear missile program and....................


----------



## new dog

Both sides don't trust each other and have done a terrible job in their bombing efforts. How can either side send a message when they can't be trusted by the rest of the world.

On the debate, it was a much better debate to watch then the Trump and Hillary debate and yes Pence looks like he should be the nominee. On immigration I believe Pence destroyed Kaine at least in the way Pence presented it. Americans have sold out to being secure after 9/11 so it makes sense what Pence says that they cannot protect America if they just bring people in from the dangerous areas of the world.


----------



## mrPPincer

Pence said Trump would stop China on their island bases in the same sentence where he said he'd use diplomacy to make them (China) take responsibility for controlling North Korea and their nuclear threat.

How does that work lol.

Oh, let me guess, another secret plan.


----------



## olivaw

Tweeted by Donald Trump during the debate ....


Donald J. Trump said:


> "Kaine looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies"


----------



## new dog

China should be taking the most responsibility in dealing with North Korea. Saying you would stop China on the Island bases does seem like a very tough task to accomplish and I don't think Trump has a plan for that.

On CNN after the debate some of the panel was saying how Pence tossed Trump under the bus and wouldn't defend him on Taxes and on a number of things. The way I see it is if you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all, so Pence played that right. If he did try to defend Trump on some of these issues, it would have consumed the debate and Pence wouldn't be able to talk about anything else.


----------



## olivaw

The CNN instant poll said the winner of the debate was:
Pence (R) 48%
Kayne (D) 42%


----------



## sags

There is an old joke........Bill and Ted were out in the forest and saw an angry grizzly bear charging towards them. They both started running when Ted asked.......can we outrun a grizzly bear ? No, said Bill...........but fortunately I only have to outrun you.

And such it is for Hillary Clinton. She only has to beat a weak candidate........which is fortunate for her.


----------



## sags

This US election reminds me of Ontario elections.

The PC party keeps choosing weak leaders and then wonder why the Liberals beat them all the time.


----------



## sags

Kaine interrupted Pence too much, and appeared to have a list of talking points he wanted to check off, even if it meant going off topic.

In any event, people vote for Presidents and everyone is already looking forward to Round 2 of the Presidential debates.


----------



## sags

The longest thread on CMF is about a US election.........go figure.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> If Hillary did something else wrong that damages her election bid, then it's all on her, not WikiLeaks. Blaming the messenger does not absolve her. CNN has just spent 2 days whining about one of Trump's tax returns from 20 years ago, but has been completely unwilling to look into any of Hillary's misdeeds.
> 
> If something devastating comes out, she deserves all the attention it would get...even if it is on the day before or the day of the election. It would be a minor step in levelling the very slanted media coverage she has enjoyed.


Why is wikileaks withholding this information, then?


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> The longest thread on CMF is about a US election.........go figure.


I should have gone long on political rhetoric.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> The longest thread on CMF is about a US election.........go figure.


The possibility that Trump could gain the power to launch a nuclear first strike might explain it. It's as exciting as XIRR on my couch potato portfolio.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> The longest thread on CMF is about a US election.........go figure.


Not there yet- the Apple thread is 327 pages!


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Wikileaks is behaving extremely suspiciously. If they were following their stated goal of exposing corruption as journalists acting in the public interest, etc. they would release any damaging info they have now. Saying they have devastating info but will release it later smacks of a desire to manipulate the political process in the US. If that is their goal, everyone should be deeply suspicious of their motives.


There is nothing "suspicious" about Wikileaks. Like why would anyone suspect the public relations department for KGB? Besides, all their staff are known for their exceptional integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Shamir


----------



## new dog

I know many of us say we don't like politicians and we all don't like how much they lie, which most would agree. But I did find out how much of a difference experience makes in a debate. It is like watching amateurs playing against the Harlem Globe Trotters after seeing Donald Trump and the three experienced politicians debate. Donald will need to prepare and maybe we will see a much better debate the next time up. He actually has a easy opponent in Hillary to beat with all her baggage and Pence would have taken her down if he was the one in the drivers seat.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The latest is that Hillary wanted to take out Julian Assange with a drone strike while Secretary of State.

https://www.rt.com/usa/361459-secretary-clinton-drone-assange/

Now she says she 'can't recall' any such incident.


----------



## olivaw

^Isn't _rt.com_ the Russian government's news service?


----------



## sags

The press and Republicans are praising Pence's performance at the debate and there is some wistful thinking and talk of Trump being more like Pence, or Trump adopting some of Pence's policies.

Then there are reports that Trump's nose is out of joint because Pence did so well.

Personally, other than a few policies I disagree with.......Pence looks like a much better candidate than Trump.


----------



## olivaw

Pence was a better debater than Trump. He is far more conservative than Trump, Romney, McCain or Bush but at least he could be trusted with command of the American military and nuclear arsenal.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> ^Isn't _rt.com_ the Russian government's news service?


Is the Toronto Sun a tool of the Soviet government?

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/10/0...eaks-founder-julian-assange-with-drone-report


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The latest is that Hillary wanted to take out Julian Assange with a drone strike while Secretary of State.
> 
> https://www.rt.com/usa/361459-secretary-clinton-drone-assange/
> 
> Now she says she 'can't recall' any such incident.


Had Trump said that, the media would have ran with it for 3 days calling him a loose cannon who can't be trusted. Hillary, as always, gets a free pass.

And, that is one of the reasons for Trump's popularity. People are sick and tired of the special treatment she gets. A few rabid leftists will never change no matter what she does or says, but her camp has lost a lot of followers and loses more every day.


----------



## bass player

And yet another Department of Justice cover-up for Hillary, that I'm sure olivaw and sags will simple dismiss as just another conspiracy:

"The Obama administration is moving to dismiss charges against an arms dealer it had accused of selling weapons that were destined for Libyan rebels.

Lawyers for the Justice Department on Monday filed a motion in federal court in Phoenix to drop the case against the arms dealer, an American named Marc Turi, whose lawyers also signed the motion.

The deal averts a trial that threatened to cast additional scrutiny on Hillary Clinton’s private emails as Secretary of State, and to expose reported Central Intelligence Agency attempts to arm rebels fighting Libyan leader Moammar Qadhafi"

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/marc-turi-libyan-rebels-hillary-clinton-229115


----------



## bass player

Speaking of taxes, The Clinton Foundation conveniently "forgot" to list millions in foreign donations. How come CNN is ignoring this while in a snit about Trump's 1995 return??:

"Clinton Foundation officials quietly refiled three years of tax-related forms this week after the New York attorney general acknowledged the charity had failed to disclose all of its donors in accordance with state law.

Two entities operating within the Clintons' sprawling philanthropic network — the Clinton Health Access Initiative and the Clinton Global Initiative — submitted supplementary financial disclosures for different years between 2012 and 2014 while denying Tuesday that the attorney general's office had asked them to do so.

In November of last year, the Clinton Health Access Initiative re-submitted several years of tax returns after reporters identified millions of dollars in foreign contributions that had been omitted from its disclosures."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/c...les-three-years-of-tax-forms/article/2603667/


----------



## sags

Decades of accusations and no charges.........is why people ignore new accusations.

The anti-Clinton crowd has cried wolf too many times. Nobody believes them anymore.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Had Trump said that, the media would have ran with it for 3 days calling him a loose cannon who can't be trusted. Hillary, as always, gets a free pass.


Are you joking? Really?

The source they cite is "True Pundit", which cites unidentified state department sources.


What about the fact that Trump wore a nuclear bomb suicide vest into an orphanage in Jerusalem and detonated it, killing several orphans, damaging the building, and hurting both a Halal Breakfast delivery driver and the goat pulling his cart? How come the corrupt right leaning media doesn't report that? If Hillary had done that, it would be all over the news. What gives?

I read about that bombing event on www.HillaryOrDie.com and www.AllRepublicansAreTraitors.com.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Decades of accusations and no charges.........is why people ignore new accusations.


How many times have we heard that new evidence in the Benghazi hearings would blow the lid off the whole deal, put Obama in jail, and convict every member of the Democratic party? I heard it at least four times.

I turned out to be total crap, like almost everything out of the Republican base. These people are clearly mentally deranged. It wouldn't even be a stretch to call the extremes of the group.... deplorable.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> A few rabid leftists will never change no matter what she does or says, but her camp has lost a lot of followers and loses more every day.


Your trend assessment may be inconsistent with poll data.


----------



## bass player

Progressives follow the exact same pattern:

1. If the mainstream media doesn't report it, it never happened.
2. If non-mainstream media reports it, it never happened and was all right wing conspiracy lies
3. If Obama calls off the Department of Justice (like he has done before), then they simply pretend that no crime was ever committed.

As icing on the cake, they then insult those who pointed out misdeeds, even though progressives preach tolerance every day. However, the only tolerance they want is tolerance for their ideas. They have complete and total contempt for anyone who does not think like them.

Progressivism is a mental illness. Those who suffer from it are unable to think for themselves...all of their "opinions" come from mainstream media and their elitist leaders. Confront one of them with an inconvenient fact and they get upset because their minds are unable to process it.

Have a nice day... :smile:


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The Presidential debate boogaloo

http://i.imgur.com/zn0HBfx.mp4


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Progressivism is a mental illness.


This line of thought is straight out of Whacko City. The idea that someone who thinks differently than you do must be sick is the ultimate in subjective thinking.




bass player said:


> Those who suffer from it are unable to think for themselves...all of their "opinions" come from mainstream media and their elitist leaders.


You have been shovelling extremely far fetched and objectively ridiculous "information" into this forum, as though it's fact. This is another case of you blaming others for your wrong doings.

Reality is lost on you but I will take another shot. People can be intelligent, good quality, people and have different points of view. There is a wide range of viewpoints which are completely legitimate.

The idea that someone who thinks differently than you is sick, is sick. In fact, I consider my difference from you to be a sign of good mental health and the voices in my head certainly agree.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The Presidential debate boogaloo
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/zn0HBfx.mp4


This is great - well worth the watch. :smile:


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> The idea that someone who thinks differently than you is sick, is sick.


+1. There are as many different opinions as unique posters on the forum. We're not going to change the outcome of the US election here. This thread is for entertainment purposes only.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump is neither a liberal or a conservative.

He adheres to an ideology only until another one floats by. His ideology can change in minutes, hours or days........but it will change.

With Trump , that is probably the only thing you can count on.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Decades of accusations and no charges.........is why people ignore new accusations.
> 
> The anti-Clinton crowd has cried wolf too many times. Nobody believes them anymore.


You can't accuse someone of something if the person or persons prosecuting it won't no matter the evidence. Some of it of course is untrue or made up but I don't think everything is made up or untrue.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The Presidential debate boogaloo
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/zn0HBfx.mp4




they edited hillary well, although the dancer is thinner. Luckily the real hillary wore a simple red pantsuit, not clothes that were impossible to copy.

but the donald editing is a disaster. Wait, maybe they really meant to give him that oversized bloated head?

.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Progressives follow the exact same pattern:
> 
> 1. If the mainstream media doesn't report it, it never happened.
> 2. If non-mainstream media reports it, it never happened and was all right wing conspiracy lies
> 3. If Obama calls off the Department of Justice (like he has done before), then they simply pretend that no crime was ever committed.
> 
> As icing on the cake, they then insult those who pointed out misdeeds, even though progressives preach tolerance every day. However, the only tolerance they want is tolerance for their ideas. They have complete and total contempt for anyone who does not think like them.
> 
> Progressivism is a mental illness. Those who suffer from it are unable to think for themselves...all of their "opinions" come from mainstream media and their elitist leaders. Confront one of them with an inconvenient fact and they get upset because their minds are unable to process it.
> 
> Have a nice day... :smile:



as olivaw says, this thread is for entertainment purposes only. 

bass you have never been entertaining enough. I hope you will not mind if i mention you are a bit too dour.

nelley though was hilarious
bass what have you done with nelley
ps how are you pronouncing "dour"

.


----------



## TomB19

I heard that Nelley has been busy losing weight and working on being less hispanic so he can fit the correct Trump voter profile.


----------



## olivaw

The proudly non-partisan Atlantic is a 159 year old publication that was founded by slavery abolitionists. It has only endorsed three candidates in it's entire history. Abraham Lincoln, LBJ (i.e. not Barry Goldwater) and now, Hillary Clinton (i.e. not Donald Trump). 



> In its founding statement, The Atlantic promised that it would be “the organ of no party or clique,” and our interest here is not to advance the prospects of the Democratic Party, nor to damage those of the Republican Party. If Hillary Clinton were facing Mitt Romney, or John McCain, or George W. Bush, or, for that matter, any of the leading candidates Trump vanquished in the Republican primaries, we would not have contemplated making this endorsement. We believe in American democracy, in which individuals from various parties of different ideological stripes can advance their ideas and compete for the affection of voters. But Trump is not a man of ideas. He is a demagogue, a xenophobe, a sexist, a know-nothing, and a liar. He is spectacularly unfit for office, and voters—the statesmen and thinkers of the ballot box—should act in defense of American democracy and elect his opponent.


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...lary-clinton-and-against-donald-trump/501161/


----------



## new dog

Doesn't sound like a very democratic group to me, it sounds more like a group that will stay out as long as the establishment candidates are there to be picked. If America wants change and votes for Trump in a fair election, then that is democracy in action.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I've been reading some Atlantic articles lately and have never seen a less 'non partisan' publication in my life.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> Doesn't sound like a very democratic group to me, it sounds more like a group that will stay out as long as the establishment candidates are there to be picked. If America wants change and votes for Trump in a fair election, then that is democracy in action.


Democracy doesn't preclude the expression of an opinion by a respected publication with a 159 year history. The editors didn't expect to move many votes. They felt that respect for their proud history and their country required them to point out that Trump is _"spectacularly unfit for office"_.


----------



## mordko

And here is what a non-establishment Republican blog thinks about Trump and his supporters:

http://www.redstate.com/jaycaruso/2...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

The key word is: "lame".


----------



## TomB19

It looks like Hillary is the likely victor. If she wins, do you think Republicans will cooperate more with her than with President Obama?


----------



## sags

I doubt there will be much bipartisan support for anything.

The US is sharply divided into two distinct ideological camps, with almost an even split of support. Independents are the king makers.

Millennials will have a profound affect on future elections, as power shifts from the views of older generations to those of newer ones.

The hearts and minds of the young, is where political parties will have to focus their efforts, while they struggle along in rancor and disunity.


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> It looks like Hillary is the likely victor. If she wins, do you think Republicans will cooperate more with her than with President Obama?


Very much depends on both sides. Obama deliberately undermined any chance of bi-partisan cooperation.


----------



## sags

Trump can write a book after his defeat..........The Smart Person's Guide to Avoiding Taxes.

All the talk so far is that Trump won't release his tax returns and probably didn't pay any taxes for 20 years.

Why aren't reporters asking if the losses were legitimate ?


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> This line of thought is straight out of Whacko City. The idea that someone who thinks differently than you do must be sick is the ultimate in subjective thinking.





TomB19 said:


> The idea that someone who thinks differently than you is sick, is sick. In fact, I consider my difference from you to be a sign of good mental health and the voices in my head certainly agree.


Relax...I was poking fun just like those who like to assume that anyone who isn't a liberal must be racist and/or homophobe. If one side is going to insult the other side repeatedly, they should expect some pushback on occasion.

Perhaps you need to go to your safe space for awhile?


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## humble_pie

i wonder if this meandering thread could meander into a quick sidebar topic for a moment. Electoral reform in canada. My riding MP is holding a public town hall meeting on this issue next week, so the topic is on my mind.

my understanding is that canada has the traditional riding/district parliamentary system inherited from great britain. The majority among the local seats that are voted in by each of hundreds of local districts get to form the government.

on the other hand a significant number of minority party members feel they are not properly represented in parliament because, in their home ridings, their member wasn't elected. So they call for representation by popular vote.

sorry for the crude summary! in reality, many reform proposals have been put forth, each with delicate variations.

but i'm looking at 2 big recent *popular* votes that have stunned & crippled their respective countries. Afterwards many commentators said that they wanted the vote results undone. Even the parties that had supported the winning popular votes said they wanted the vote to be changed after the fact.

in england, many young london-based voters did not vote in the Brexit referendum. Brexit was carried by older voters who are concerned about immigration/refugees. One could say it was a kind of scared mob vote. After the referendum, the pols who had led the Yes Brexit campaign even shamefully upped & quit.

in the US, the republican party elected donald trump as their presidential candidate. Then a stunning number of prominent republicans disowned trump. Presently these GOP leaders are saying they either intend to vote democrat or else they won't vote at all. Another example of an emotional anti-establishment mob vote within the GOP, but the voters failed to think things through.

me i'm left thinking that a vote by riding district - even though it does leave minority parties somewhat in the lurch - is nevertheless subtle enough, ie vote-by-riding presents enough natural blocks, that it can prevent the kind of uninformed mob rule which saw Brexit go too-hastily Yes, which saw the GOP go too-hastily Yes on donald trump.


.


----------



## olivaw

On cooperation: Republicans met before Obama took office and decided that their objective would be to deny him a second term because he was unknown. One R senate candidate (forget which one) did say that they expect to cooperate better with Hillary Clinton because they have worked with her for so many years. Time will tell if political party allegiance is more important than country.


----------



## new dog

There was nothing wrong with Brexit the people don't want to be controlled by the EU and I don't blame them. Many people vote for Trump because they want the choice to choose someone outside of the establishment.


----------



## bass player

Those against Brexit continue to make excuses why it didn't go their way...they state with no evidence (more leftist lies) that right wing racists voted to leave and the left wing non-racists simply didn't get out and vote and therefore, the vote somehow shouldn't count. It's nothing but all sour grapes from people that didn't get their way...the complaining pattern happens often enough when the left don't get their way that is should be instantly recognizable.

The voting system in Canada works just fine as it is. I don't believe in "proportional representation". If a candidate can't earn enough votes to win their a riding, then why should they be awarded a seat and why should the seat be taken away from someone who received more votes?


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Those against Brexit continue to make excuses why it didn't go their way...they state with no evidence (more leftist lies) that right wing racists voted to leave and the left wing non-racists simply didn't get out and vote and therefore, the vote somehow shouldn't count. It's nothing but all sour grapes from people that didn't get their way...the complaining pattern happens often enough when the left don't get their way that is should be instantly recognizable.


I was with you until you attempted (and failed) to tie that to the left.

This is exactly what Donald Trump has said. He has literally presented the idea that, if he loses, it will be due to a problem of corruption and election fixing.

Al Gore lost in 2000 and he had more votes than Bush. Gore went away quietly.

This isn't a left issue. If you want to be partisan about it, it's a right issue but I think it's more an issue connected to nonobjective people, such as yourself.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> but i'm looking at 2 big recent *popular* votes that have stunned & crippled their respective countries. Afterwards many commentators said that they wanted the vote results undone. Even the parties that had supported the winning popular votes said they wanted the vote to be changed after the fact.


Democracy works but sometimes the outcome seems wrong - at least to those of us who disagree with what the majority voted for.  

If we do get rid of our FPTP system, I hope we go with a ranked ballot that preserves the full riding system. 

IMHO, The percentage system gives too much power to party leaders.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I was with you until you attempted (and failed) to tie that to the left.
> 
> This is exactly what Donald Trump has said. He has literally presented the idea that, if he loses, it will be due to a problem of corruption and election fixing.
> 
> Al Gore lost in 2000 and he had more votes than Bush. Gore went away quietly.
> 
> This isn't a left issue. If you want to be partisan about it, it's a right issue but I think it's more an issue connected to nonobjective people, such as yourself.


Of course it's a left issue...anyone paying attention saw that. The left whined and complained when the vote didn't go their way and blamed it on racist right wingers.

Open your eyes.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> There was nothing wrong with Brexit the people don't want to be controlled by the EU and I don't blame them.



dogcom you know perfectly well that the true Brexit exit has barely even begun. Will take years to accomplish (minimum of 2 years according to the charter) (but will likely take longer since the british parliament could vote against final Brexit) 

in the meantime GB is hobbled in international trade. The pound is falling, falling ...





> Many people vote for Trump because they want the choice to choose someone outside of the establishment.


yes that's what i was saying. Electing trump as the presidential candidate was a rash, hasty, ill-thought-out national convulsion in the GOP. Now prominent elder GOP statesmen are repudiating it.

it looks like trump will lose & if he loses the GOP will be utterly destroyed. Will have to be re-engineered from the ashes. Anti-establishment republicans should recruit & merge with the bernie sanders supporters, then an appealing small-is-better conservative party platform could grace America once again.

assuming hillary clinton serves 4 years until 2020, that's just about enough time for the GOP to rebuild itself from the ground up. 

.





.


----------



## wraphter

but i'm looking at 2 big recent *popular* votes that have stunned & crippled their respective countries. Afterwards many commentators said that they wanted the vote results undone



The process for selecting Trump was not a popular vote and his selection has hardly "crippled" the US.
The primary process was quite similar to the riding system,with each state similar to a riding. So local geography
was an important factor. 

Some of the states were winner take all and some were proportional with the number of delegates based on the percent of the vote. In some states the delegates were chosen in a kind of riding or county meeting. Something like a townhall.

At the convention the party officials could have changed the rules to free the pledged delegates and take the nomination away from Trump. They chose not to because they knew there would be a rebellion.They could have substituted Ted Cruz if they dared.

Donald Trump was not selected by a popular vote,and of course he was not selected by the entire nation,only the Repiblicans.


----------



## mordko

He wasn't really selected by "Republicans" either; it's a mixed system. Many states allow independents to vote. What happened with Trump was closer to Proportional Representation than to First Past the Post. There was a large field with a lot of candidates, so an extreme candidate split the field and got through. With PR you also have a lot of parties because everyone has a chance of getting through even with a small share of the overall vote. Invariably extreme candidates do make it through. That's why countries with PR always have the far right and the far left in the parliament. This scenario is very rare with FPP in countries like UK, Canada, etc...


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> He wasn't really selected by "Republicans" either; it's a mixed system. Many states allow independents to vote. What happened with Trump was closer to Proportional Representation than to First Past the Post. There was a large field with a lot of candidates, so an extreme candidate split the field and got through. With PR you also have a lot of parties because everyone has a chance of getting through even with a small share of the overall vote. Invariably extreme candidates do make it through. That's why countries with PR always have the far right and the far left in the parliament. This scenario is very rare with FPP in countries like UK, Canada, etc...



what an interesting post, thankx


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> but i'm looking at 2 big recent *popular* votes that have stunned & crippled their respective countries. Afterwards many commentators said that they wanted the vote results undone
> 
> 
> The process for selecting Trump was not a popular vote and his selection has hardly "crippled" the US.
> The primary process was quite similar to the riding system,with each state similar to a riding. So local geography
> was an important factor.
> 
> Some of the states were winner take all and some were proportional with the number of delegates based on the percent of the vote. In some states the delegates were chosen in a kind of riding or county meeting. Something like a townhall.
> 
> At the convention the party officials could have changed the rules to free the pledged delegates and take the nomination away from Trump. They chose not to because they knew there would be a rebellion.They could have substituted Ted Cruz if they dared.
> 
> Donald Trump was not selected by a popular vote,and of course he was not selected by the entire nation,only the Repiblicans.




wraphter i would appreciate it if you would please follow media rules on quoted texts, as these are strict when it comes to plagiarizing.

your post (above) commences with a text from myself, but the sentences are not attributed.

here's my text from just upthread. I'd appreciate if you would repair your post with citation, thanking you in advance.


EDIT: you could also comply with the rules against plagiarizing by deleting my sentences ... each:




humble_pie said:


> but i'm looking at 2 big recent *popular* votes that have stunned & crippled their respective countries. Afterwards many commentators said that they wanted the vote results undone.


----------



## wraphter

Sorry I did not know how to do the quotes.




humble_pie said:


> but i'm looking at 2 big recent *popular* votes that have stunned & crippled their respective countries. Afterwards many commentators said that they wanted the vote results undone


It was hardly my intention to plagiarize you, because I don't agree with what you said. 




mordko said:


> He wasn't really selected by "Republicans" either; it's a mixed system.


Right,silly me for thinking Trump was selected at the Republican convention.And that everyone in the media repeatedly refers to him as the Republican candidate. I guess I must be just imagining what I see over and over again.

I think I will email CNN and tell them Trump is not the Republican candidate.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Sorry I did not know how to do the quotes.
> 
> It was hardly my intention to plagiarize you, because I don't agree with what you said.



reading backward, it's clear that you don't agree & your post was very welcome to me, as you had many excellent points to debate/discuss & these are helpful to all readers! thankx! you'll see that mordko has yet another interesting point of view.

turning now to how-to-quote:

- select "Reply With Quote" on the poster's comment you wish to quote.

the entire text of the post will appear, like so:

[.QUOTE=wraphter;1288122]Sorry I did not know how to do the quotes. It was hardly my intention to plagiarize you, because I don't agree with what you said.[/QUOTE]

notice that i inserted a period immediately after the first square bracket. This was to prevent the sentences from dissolving into the blue balloon format, i wanted to show them to you as they would appear while you are working. But the added period does not belong, of course.

notice also that one can edit a long post, ie remove text. To get really pickypickypicky, standard journalism requires that omitted text be indicated by three dots ... like so ...

.


----------



## mordko

wraphter said:


> Sorry I did not know how to do the quotes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was hardly my intention to plagiarize you, because I don't agree with what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right,silly me for thinking Trump was selected at the Republican convention.And that everyone in the media repeatedly refers to him as the Republican candidate. I guess I must be just imagining what I see over and over again.
> 
> I think I will email CNN and tell them Trump is not the Republican candidate.


Yes, you are rather silly, because that's not what I said. What I said was rather simple: it's not just the Republicans that select who becomes the Republican nominee. Here: https://www.bustle.com/articles/145...in-primaries-offer-voters-an-important-choice


----------



## wraphter

Thanks for the advise about "reply with quote" function,humble_pie.

Unfortunately at the present time I do not have the privilege of editing my posts
in order to attribute your words to you.


----------



## olivaw

For all intents and purposes, Republican voters chose Donald Trump as their nominee. To argue otherwise, one would have to mathematically demonstrate that independent voters in turned out in sufficient numbers and voted differently from Republican voters. That does not appear to have been the case. Donald Trump was more popular with registered Republican primary voters. 

No point splitting hairs. Trump was selected by the Republicans as their candidate. 

ETA: Polls suggest that 90% of registered Republicans intend to vote for Trump on November 8th.


----------



## mordko

It is known for a fact that primaries which allowed Democrats and independents to vote in Republican races boosted Trump. Trump did a lot better in states with Open Primaries. 21 states have open primaries, many of them early states which play instrumental role in deciding the ultimate nominee. Would he have won without open primaries? Nobody knows this for certain. 

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/22/trumps-big-advantage-open-primaries.html



> In those open primaries, Trump has come out ahead in 13 out of 16 states. In states with closed primaries, Trump won only six out of 14 states.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> No point splitting hairs. Trump was selected by the Republicans as their candidate.




OK. But how does one account for the fact that in both england & the US, numbers of prominent "supporters" defected, bolted or quit, soon after the respective votes?

this began the very night of the Brexit vote IIRC. Brits began demanding that the referendum be held all over again.

in the US, it took a while longer but now you have bush, mcCain, romney, paulson, another bush, bloomberg, powell, another bush ... all telling the media they won't vote for donald trump.

every day now there's a new story describing the flight of the mighty from republican ranks. Thirty minutes ago the Los Angeles Times served up today's article about 30 not-previously-announced republican congressmen who now say they won't vote for trump.

if registered republicans calmly & knowingly nominated donald trump via a carefully districted, tried & true voting system, what is it that's happening these days?


.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I Listened to a Trump Supporter by David A. Hill

I talked at length with a Trump supporter I grew up around. I wanted to understand. I respected her growing up. I wanted to know why a person as kind and compassionate as I remember her is voting for someone like Donald Trump.

She was a family friend, a good person. In rural Ohio, everything was tight. Money, jobs. If you really needed quick cash, she’d put you to work doing landscaping. She’d pay fairly and reliably for the area.

She’s voting for Donald Trump. I disagree with her choice, but I understand why she rejects Clinton so fiercely, and why she’s been swept up in Donald Trump’s particular brand of right-wing populism. I feel that on the left, it’s increasingly easy to ignore these people, to disregard them, to write them off as racists, bigots, or uneducated. I think that’s a loss for everyone involved, and that sometimes listening can help you to at least understand why a person is making the choices they make, so you can work on the root causes. For her, the root cause isn’t racism. In fact, I remember her as one of the only people in the area who proudly hired black workers, in a place where that was a huge issue. She fought over that choice.

She’s a person who built her business from the ground up. She wasn’t rich, but was very comfortable for the area. She had a nice house, a nice car, and was stable. She achieved the American dream of not having to struggle. Things changed during the housing crisis. A landscaping business requires customers who need landscaping, and people who don’t own homes just don’t need landscaping. In some of these neighborhoods, one in five people lost their homes. That almost immediately turns a successful landscaping business into a struggling one.

Then there was a domino effect. She couldn’t pay for her lawn-care equipment leases and loans. That hurt her work efficiency. Then, she lost her car. But that didn’t stop the payments. Then, she lost her house. She slowly had to let go all of her employees, until it was just her, hand-mowing lawns for cash the way you might expect a high school student in the summertime.

She told me that every week, it seemed there was another default letter, another foreclosure, another bank demanding more blood from her dry veins. To her, that pile of default notices and demands for payment looked suspiciously similar to Hillary Clinton’s top donor list.

She lost everything she worked so hard for. Obama swore he was going to help. The Wall Street bailout did seem to help Wall Street. But it did absolutely nothing for her. She turns on the news and sees how the Dow Jones is doing better than ever. But that didn’t bring her house and livelihood back. Liberals insist that Obama’s made her life better. But, now she’s driving a car that falls apart randomly while having to pay those same banks for a car she doesn’t own and never will. It’s difficult to convince someone whose life is objectively worse that their life is better. And it’s disingenuous to try. When someone’s hungry, and you’re silencing their complaints by telling them how well world hunger is improving, you’re just going to upset them.

This is not a person who is stupid or racist. She knows Bush caused the economy collapse with his irresponsible tax policies and wars. But she saw liberals as fighting for the banks’ recovery, to hell with her needs. She sees in Hillary someone who celebrates that approach. Who measures US success by the success of multinational mega corporations — corporations who undercut and destroy local businesses. This is a person who grew up in a town with a friendly neighborhood general store, a locally-owned hardware store, farmers’ markets, florists, and auto shops. All of these businesses closed when Walmart moved into town. All their owners now work at that Walmart for a fraction of their previous wages, no benefits, and no hope for something better, something of their own. And now, she sees a free trade supporting former Walmart executive about to come in to office, and it feels like salt in her community’s wounds.

This is a wounded person. Insulting her or continuing to hurt her isn’t going to help. She’s swept up in Trump’s message because she feels someone’s finally listening.

Over the past few years, she tried getting back in her business. But a corporation moved in and is operating far cheaper, using undocumented immigrant labor. I should note: She specifically said she doesn’t hold it against the migrant workers. As she said, “They’ve got to take whatever jobs they can get. Just like we do. It’s not their fault. They didn’t choose to make prices so low that legal businesses couldn’t compete.” She was literally a “job creator”. And she wasbeing priced out by the very people Donald Trump insists are pricing her out. That hurts everyone, and it adds an air of authenticity to what he says.

I asked her if she supports Trump’s Mexico wall. She told me, “It doesn’t matter if I do. Hillary wants a wall, too. That wall’s gonna happen.” She wasn’t simply making this up. She’s heard this from many sources, Clinton being one of them. So to her, the idea of a border wall is a non-issue. I pressed her on the issue, and she said she thinks, “It’s a waste of money. If someone wants to cross the border, they’re gonna cross the border.”

I asked about Trump not paying taxes. She said she wouldn’t pay taxes either, if the government custom-tailored tax laws to let her. I asked about Trump wanting to deport Muslims. She said she doesn’t believe he will. That he’s just talking tough.

I asked what, if she hates Clinton so, she thinks about Trump’s campaign contributions to her. What’d she say? “That’s smart business.” She said if she could afford to bribe politicians to save her more money, she would too. But only because you must to stay competitive. She said it’s an awful system, but you can’t blame people for playing the game the way the rules were written. The people to blame, she said, are the people who wrote the rules. And those people are Clintons (and Bushes, and Obamas).

I asked about Trump’s support of the Iraq War. She said she doesn’t care, that at least he’s willing to call it out now.

I asked her about Trump’s racism. Her answer? “Do you know what the Clintons have done to the blacks?” I asked her to elaborate. She brought up the now famous “superpredators” comment, and mass incarceration. She couldn’t provide many details, but to her, the Clintons meant imprisoning black teens for minor drug offenses. She told me of one black teen she briefly employed, who ended up in prison for a couple of joints. She shook her head in disgust; this clearly hurt her.

This is a person who earned a beautiful house and moderately strong income. A very hard worker. Now, she has no prospects or hope. This is a person tired of being called stupid because she opposes policies like NAFTA. TPP rightly frightens her. I think she’s misguided in her perceptions of what Trump means. But to her, a vote for HRC is a vote for Bill Clinton, Bush, and Obama. And the way things have gone have been disastrous for her, and her community. So anything different looks like it’s worth a try.

I asked her who she thought Hillary Clinton was talking about with her “basket of deplorables” remark. She said, “Me.” I asked why. She shrugged. “I don’t know. Because I don’t live in California or New York and I didn’t go to a fancy college.”

To her, Trump isn’t some perfect savior. She called him, “Kind of an ***.” But, she said, things cannot continue the way they’re going.

To her, support for HRC is support for JP Morgan Chase, who had her forcibly evicted from her home. Or Citigroup, who impounded her car.

A few times, she seemed ashamed of things Trump’s said or done. I’d ask her to unpack her feelings. She said he sometimes upsets her, but “If you wait and wait for a flawless candidate, you’ll never find one.” She said she’d be much prouder to vote for Trump if he’d tone down his rhetoric.

I talked to her a bit about Bernie Sanders, to see what she thought of him. She told me, “He seemed like a nice enough guy. But I didn’t pay him much mind because there was no way he was gonna beat Clinton.” I talked with her about his platform, his policy proposals. She lit up. She told me, “It’s a real shame he didn’t make it.” She told me that if she knew him, his record, and his proposals, she’d have voted for him. I said that since the primary concluded, Hillary’s shifted some to adopt policies similar to his, and I asked if that changed her mind. She told me, “It doesn’t matter what she says. It matters what she’s done.”

No amount of insulting her from an ivory tower is going to change her mind. No amount of guffawing about her lack of education, her self-deception, her racism, or her internalized misogyny is going to change her mind. The only thing she’ll listen to is a promise of real change to the system that’s hurt her. If the Democratic Party can’t offer her a viable alternative, we’re going to see another neck-and-neck election in 2020, and in 2024, and in 2028.

These people need a populist answer. They need someone willing to listen to their very real concerns, and offer solutions that don’t look like Band-Aids on bullet wounds. If they had that on the left, we wouldn’t even be discussing Ohio as a “swing state”.

Right now, this is the discourse we’re seeing about Trump supporters. This only emboldens those attitudes. To people like her, this feels like the left is laughing at her for her unwillingness to get in line and support the things that have left her broke and broken.


Edited for length. To see the original - https://extranewsfeed.com/i-listened-to-a-trump-supporter-49a41a9a99de#.13guald0i


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> dogcom you know perfectly well that the true Brexit exit has barely even begun. Will take years to accomplish (minimum of 2 years according to the charter) (but will likely take longer since the british parliament could vote against final Brexit)
> 
> in the meantime GB is hobbled in international trade. The pound is falling, falling ...
> 
> 
> yes that's what i was saying. Electing trump as the presidential candidate was a rash, hasty, ill-thought-out national convulsion in the GOP. Now prominent elder GOP statesmen are repudiating it.
> 
> it looks like trump will lose & if he loses the GOP will be utterly destroyed. Will have to be re-engineered from the ashes. Anti-establishment republicans should recruit & merge with the bernie sanders supporters, then an appealing small-is-better conservative party platform could grace America once again.
> 
> assuming hillary clinton serves 4 years until 2020, that's just about enough time for the GOP to rebuild itself from the ground up.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry the quote thing got messed up but I think we get the point below.
> 
> You have to think for a moment that nothing comes easy and change is not easy. Back 40 or so years ago gay rights and the racism against blacks would probably never have ended if the people we wanted to elect couldn't get in because they had hasty or rash ideas. Let democracy do its job and let the people decide who they want and if they don't like who they elect they can throw them out the next time around.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> OK. But how does one account for the fact that in both england & the US, numbers of prominent "supporters" defected, bolted or quit, soon after the respective votes?
> 
> this began the very night of the Brexit vote IIRC. Brits began demanding that the referendum be held all over again.
> 
> in the US, it took a while longer but now you have bush, mcCain, romney, paulson, another bush, bloomberg, powell, another bush ... all telling the media they won't vote for donald trump.
> 
> every day now there's a new story describing the flight of the mighty from republican ranks. Thirty minutes ago the Los Angeles Times served up today's article about 30 not-previously-announced republican congressmen who now say they won't vote for trump.
> 
> if registered republicans calmly & knowingly nominated donald trump via a carefully districted, tried & true voting system, what is it that's happening these days?
> 
> 
> .


I was, as you know, very much opposed to Brexit and was optimistic that a second referendum would yield a Remain vote. However, polls suggest that a second referendum would probably lead to the Leave side winning a second time. Things may change when May tells us exactly what Brexit means but for now, I have accepted that my birth country is going to dive headlong into an experiment that may lead to disaster. 

Those Republicans who have turned their backs on Trump seem to be the better educated Republicans. Those with support him and his populist message are (ummmm) less educated. 

It was my understanding that Trump won more Republican votes than any other candidate in the primaries. Mordko raised an interesting mathematical argument that I will research when I return from my chores. Trump won more of the states that allowed independents to vote. I'd need to look at specific polling numbers again. 

(Needless to say, most of us agree that Trump is unfit to be the leader of the free world. Usually our preference for president is based on ideology and policy. This year the differences go far deeper.).


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I Listened to a Trump Supporter by David A. Hill
> 
> I talked at length with a Trump supporter I grew up around. I wanted to understand. I respected her growing up. I wanted to know why a person as kind and compassionate as I remember her is voting for someone like Donald Trump.
> 
> She was a family friend, a good person. In rural Ohio, everything was tight. Money, jobs. If you really needed quick cash, she’d put you to work doing landscaping. She’d pay fairly and reliably for the area.
> 
> She’s voting for Donald Trump. I disagree with her choice, but I understand why she rejects Clinton so fiercely.....
> 
> Edited for length. To see the original - https://extranewsfeed.com/i-listened-to-a-trump-supporter-49a41a9a99de#.13guald0i


That person summed it up nicely, Rusty. I wonder if any Hillary supporters can even grasp the content of that statement. In fact, would any of them even bother to read it all the way through before completely dismissing it?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> That person summed it up nicely, Rusty. I wonder if any Hillary supporters can even grasp the content of that statement. In fact, would any of them even bother to read it all the way through before completely dismissing it?


I seriously doubt it. Anyone who gets all their news second hand from the main stream media and NEVER listens to anything Trump actually says, is so far gone now nothing would make any difference.


----------



## wraphter

A humourous article in Vanity Fair via RealClearPolitics about their "short-fingered vulgarian" ,Deplorable Donald.



Vanity Fair said:


> I sat Trump beside Vendela, thinking that she would get a kick out of him. This was not the case. After 45 minutes she came over to my table, almost in tears, and pleaded with me to move her. It seems that Trump had spent his entire time with her assaying the “tits” and legs of the other female guests and asking how they measured up to those of other women, including his wife. “He is,” she told me, in words that seemed familiar, “the most vulgar man I have ever met.”
> 
> .........
> 
> At one point we sent checks for $1.11 out to 58 of the “well-known” and “well-heeled” to see who would take the time to endorse and deposit the checks from a firm we called the National Refund Clearinghouse. The ones who deposited the $1.11 checks were sent 64-cent checks, and the ones who deposited those were sent checks for 13 cents. This being in the days before electronic deposits and such, the exercise took the better part of a year. At the end, only two 13-cent checks were signed—and we couldn’t believe our good fortune. One was signed by arms trader Adnan Khashoggi. The other was deposited by Donald Trump.
> 
> 
> .................
> 
> In the early 90s, we photographed Trump and his soon-to-be wife, Marla, in Palm Beach. At one point, Marina Schiano, our style director, decided that the Loro Piana cashmere sweater she had given Trump to wear wasn’t right and asked him to take it off. Trump refused to pull it up over his head, not wanting to muss his confection of hair. So one of the assistants on the shoot had to get scissors and cut the sweater up the back.



He even cashed a 13 cent cheque. Wow.


----------



## bass player

wraphter said:


> He even cashed a 13 cent cheque. Wow.


So what? 

I used to work in a large office that dealt with some very large accounts. Some of them has multi-million dollar payrolls, and if an invoice for $200,000 was out even by $1 for some of them, their accounting people would contact me and try to balance it to the penny. It had nothing to do with being cheap....it was all about accuracy and trying to balance at year's end.

Our office had a rule...all legitimate cheques were cashed, regardless of the amount. Perhaps it was someone trying to balance THEIR books to the penny. The fact that Trump's people cashed that small of a cheque actually proves that they were following good financial practices, not that they were cheap.

Now, why don't you tell us how Hillary's state department managed to lose $6 billion dollars?


----------



## sags

People voting for Trump blame Obama/Clinton for Republican policies and initiatives.

Trump offers disgruntled voters more of the Republican trickle down economics and deregulation that caused the housing collapse and Great Recession. Obama/Clinton have been busy cleaning up the Republican mess for the last 8 years.


----------



## sags

*Now, why don't you tell us how Hillary's state department managed to lose $6 billion dollars?
*
Is that a mix up in conspiracies ? 

I thought it was Donald Rumsfeld who was scheduled to tell the American people how they lost billions of dollars on the tarmac of an airport in Iraq, on the very day the 911 attack took place destroying all the data that was stored in one of the buildings.

Rumsfeld was too busy shepherding Saudis out of the US to talk to the media that day, and it was never explained at all.


----------



## sags

Paul Ryan, Speaker of the House and most powerful Republican in government today, will be touring with Donald Trump.

Make no mistake about where Trump's allegiances would lie if he wins.

Fortunately Trump isn't going to win, and he and his Republican followers will be dust in the wind after his defeat.


----------



## wraphter

bass player,

If you will read carefully instead of jumping to conclusions you will see that Vanity Fair was just playing a game to 
see who was the cheapest big shot. The cheques were from a bogus company. First they sent $1.11 to 58.
Those who deposited it were sent 64 cent cheques. Those who deposited them got the 13 cent cheques.
Only 2 of 58 deposited the 13 cent cheques. One of them was the notorious arm dealer Adnan 
Khashoggi. The other was Deplorable Donald. 




> Trump's people cashed that small of a cheque actually proves that they were following good financial practices, not that they were cheap.


Trump's people? You are protecting him. The cheques were addressed to him personally.
Good financial practices? Surely you jest sir.
He lost $914 million in 1994. His companies went bankrupt 6 times. He stiffed contractors who worked for him.
If those are good financial practices, I would hate to see bad. 



> Now, why don't you tell us how Hillary's state department managed to lose $6 billion dollars


You have some documentation? From the alt-right perhaps?


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I seriously doubt it. Anyone who gets all their news second hand from the main stream media and NEVER listens to anything Trump actually says, is so far gone now nothing would make any difference.


Rusty, the article that you posted challenged people to avoid broad generalizations about Trump supporters. It didn't support your broad generalization about Hillary supporters. 

I watched every Republican primary debate. Initially I thought Trump was OK, despite my concern about his birtherism fantasy. Then the topic moved to the nuclear triad and he didn't understand the term. In one debate he said he would order interrogators to reinstate waterboarding and "more". He also suggested that the US should kill the families of known terrorists, in violation of international law and common decency. Add in his silly tweets about Megyn Kelly and Rosie OD and an unfortunate picture arises.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Very much depends on both sides. Obama deliberately undermined any chance of bi-partisan cooperation.


... by being black.


----------



## olivaw

^ I disagree with both Mordko and Tom. Republicans made the decision not to cooperate with Obama before his term began but it may not have been his skin colour so much as his unfamiliarity. Nobody knew him and nobody knew how to work with him. Likewise he didn't know how to work with congress. 

The finger pointing and partisanship in the US has done them no good. The Republicans couldn't deny Obama his second term. The Democrats lost control of the House after two years and the Senate after four. They've had a government shutdown, come perilously close to defaulting and left numerous crisis until the 11th hour. It's no way to run a country.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> Rusty, the article that you posted challenged people to avoid broad generalizations about Trump supporters. It didn't support your broad generalization about Hillary supporters.
> 
> I watched every Republican primary debate. Initially I thought Trump was OK, despite my concern about his birtherism fantasy. Then the topic moved to the nuclear triad and he didn't understand the term. In one debate he said he would order interrogators to reinstate waterboarding and "more". He also suggested that the US should kill the families of known terrorists, in violation of international law and common decency. Add in his silly tweets about Megyn Kelly and Rosie OD and an unfortunate picture arises.


Trump held a press conference to put the birtherism thing to rest. He stated that Obama was born in the US. The US is already killing the families of 'terrorists' with drones. One of their favorite tricks is to drone a house then send in a second drone 15 or 20 minutes later to kill the rescuers. I would hate to tell you who was Secretary of State when this was done.

He has a history of responding tit for tat when someone insults him. Always people in politics or the media who are considered fair game for critics. I don't know of an instance when he insulted 20% of the American electorate.


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> Democracy works but sometimes the outcome seems wrong - at least to those of us who disagree with what the majority voted for.
> 
> If we do get rid of our FPTP system, I hope we go with a ranked ballot that preserves the full riding system.
> 
> IMHO, The percentage system gives too much power to party leaders.


I think a good compromise is STV, where you rank your preferences, and you elect MPs representing a multi-member district (equivalent to 3-5 ridings today). The result is more (but not totally) proportional, all MPs are tied back to a specific constituency and are still accountable to voters more so than a party, and the system allows to voters to elect independents. It also tends to discourage micro-parties from forming since they would need a critical mass in at least 1 riding to get a seat.


----------



## Eder

wraphter said:


> bass player,
> 
> I Those who deposited them got the 13 cent cheques.
> Only 2 of 58 deposited the 13 cent cheques. One of them was the notorious arm dealer Adnan
> Khashoggi. The other was Deplorable Donald.


I'm worth plenty but pick up nickels on the sidewalk.


----------



## indexxx

I remember hearing a story years ago about a lady who got on an elevator with Jack Nicholson. There was a quarter on the floor of the elevator, and the lady was too embarrassed to pick it up in front of him. Nicholson bent down, scooped up the quarter, and said "100 million and 25 cents!" (of course he's worth much more now).


----------



## sags

The Koch brothers are notoriously cheap. They would knock someone out of the way to pick up the nickel.

For some who reach that level of wealth it isn't about the money anymore. They have more than they could ever spend.

It is about rankings among the other super rich people.

His wealth and how it is perceived by others is very important to Donald Trump. 

During the debate Hillary Clinton exploited the opportunity to get under Trump's skin by referencing the loans from his father.

Trump went off script and never regained composure.

It is one of the reasons I doubt Trump could let his kids run his business if he was President, without his daily input.


----------



## indexxx

Yep- I work for a guy like that- a micromanaging control freak. He's a terrible 'leader' and everyone GREATLY dislikes him.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> He has a history of responding tit for tat when someone insults him. Always people in politics or the media who are considered fair game for critics. I don't know of an instance when he insulted 20% of the American electorate.


Tit for tat is fine when you go toe to toe with a peer or a powerful foe. Trump punches down. Instead of going after Hillary Clinton he wastes a week at a time bullying little guys like Alicia Machado and the grieving parents of a fallen soldier.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump held a press conference to put the birtherism thing to rest. He stated that Obama was born in the US.



Rusty how can you say things like this? donald trump did not majestically "state" anything new at the recent press conference. He lied. He said the birther mythology was started by hillary clinton. This is not true. Trump himself began yapping on the "birtherism thing" way back in 2011, a time when he was actively considering running for the presidency in the 2012 election.

here's trump complaining to barbara walters on 23 march 2011:

- i want the birth certificate, trump tells barbara. Why won't he [obama] show his birth certificate.
- trump is talking a big pile of dog mess, says whoopi goldberg.
.






.




Rusty O'Toole said:


> The US is already killing the families of 'terrorists' with drones. One of their favorite tricks is to drone a house then send in a second drone 15 or 20 minutes later to kill the rescuers. I would hate to tell you who was Secretary of State when this was done.




staggered bombing in order to kill rescuers & survivors is standard warfare in our times. Nothing special to do with hillary clinton.

in the gaza war of 2014, large apartment buildings full of civilians in gaza city were slowly bombed across time spans of four to six hours. No single blast would be enough to level the building. The intention was to kill rescuers & survivors.

in aleppo right now, russia is deliberately bombing hospitals. It's thought that a russian objective is to frighten surviving civilians in cities like Aleppo & Deir el Zour into sympathizing with the rebels. Then russia will be able to claim - later on, in the eventual war crimes trials that will undoubtedly proceed in the World Court in The Hague - that russia is only bombing "terrorists," it is not bombing civilians.


.


----------



## mordko

> in the gaza war of 2014, large apartment buildings full of civilians in gaza city were slowly bombed across time spans of four to six hours. No single blast would be enough to level the building. The intention was to kill rescuers & survivors


100% fabrication + blood libel. 

The actual technique used by Israel is called "roof knocking" and the objective is to SAVE civilians present within buildings used by terrorists. First a small non-explosive device is dropped on the building to warn civilians that they should leave. A few minutes later the building is bombed and destroyed. There are plenty of videos showing how this works. It does save lives but sometimes civilians don't leave either because of confusion or for other reasons. 

The US has tried to adopt the same tactic against structures used by ISIS in Iraq. In general the rate of civilian casualties in wars waged by Israel is much smaller than in wars launched by NATO countries in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. Russia is in a different league; they killed hundreds of thousands of their own civilians in Chechnya and are now using a similar method in Syria.

Also, the claim that you can't level a building with a single blast = stupidity. It all depends on the size of the charge and type of technology used.


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> 100% fabrication + blood libel. The actual technique used by Israel is called "roof knocking" and the objective is to SAVE civilians present within buildings used by terrorists ...
> 
> Also, the claim that you can't level a building with a single blast = stupidity.




no, this is not a fabrication nor is it any kind of blood libel.

i am not posting about the infamous "knock on the top" that was practiced during the gaza war of 2014. Everyone knows about the IDF "knock," although some reports have said that many pre-bombing "knocks" allowed only a few insufficient seconds of warning.

what i posted about was the carefully engineered, intermittent bombing of at least some civilian apartment buildings across several hours, that appeared to have as objective the additional killing of rescuers & survivors.

live during the gaza war, a female scottish journalist reported that she was standing with Red Crescent rescue workers, several blocks from an already bombed apartment building in gaza city. They had all been waiting 5 hours, however the building was not yet demolished & the intermittent bomb strikes had not yet ceased. The red crescent workers could not search the rubble until the bombs had stopped, so there they all stood, waiting.

in addition, mordko has misunderstood my post. Nowhere i post any "claim that you can't level a building with a single blast."

no one has ever claimed any such thing. What i did post about were reports from gaza city that some civilian apartment buildings were being destroyed over a period of hours, using a series of smaller blasts. There were even reports that some anguished gazans were begging for one definitive strike only, in order to allow rescue workers into bombed buildings as quickly as possible.

this is what Rusty is describing when he refers to US drones bombing ISIL strongholds. It appears to be a universally practiced technique of contemporary warfare.


.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The Machado case was a frame up by the Clinton camp. They dragged out this many years old 'scandal' and tried to make a big deal out of it. Unfortunately their 'innocent victim' turned out to be a criminal with drug gang connections and they ended up with egg on their face. 

The so called grieving parent (father) is in fact a well connected Democrat lawyer specializing in immigration cases.

In both cases we have professionals (one an actress, the other a lawyer) recruited to smear Trump and Trump answered their smears. Nothing more to it than that.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"staggered bombing in order to kill rescuers & survivors is standard warfare in our times. Nothing special to do with hillary clinton."

So in your mind that makes it all right?


----------



## new dog

It is thought that Hillary without direct accusation started the birth issue thing in 2008. It is all stupid politics but it was used in some form by Hillary and more directly from Donald later on.

On Syria there are no good guys whether it is Russia or the US neither side is any good and Syria should be left alone. Russia is probably worse in killings but the US started the entire thing and ISIS through middle east destabilization so they are equally as bad in the very least.


----------



## new dog

Humble that is not fair that you used the View program because no guy is going to watch the View. I should add this piece was for comedy, just in case.


----------



## mordko

1. HP


> " No single blast would be enough to level the building."


2. HP


> in addition, mordko has misunderstood my post. Nowhere i post any "claim that you can't level a building with a single blast."



100% fabricated, deliberate lie/blood libel, also unsourced:



> what i posted about was the carefully engineered, intermittent bombing of at least some civilian apartment buildings across several hours, that appeared to have as objective the additional killing of rescuers & survivors


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The birther rumors originated with Obama himself who claimed in 1991 on his book jacket and press releases to have been born in Kenya.http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...t-1991-born-in-kenya-raised-indonesia-hawaii/

Some Clinton staffers took it up in 2008 but quickly dropped it. http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...n-campaign-manager-admits-birtherism-started/ 

In any case it is too bad Obama never put the rumors to rest by showing his genuine birth certificate although the ones he did show are amusing, especially the one signed "U. K. Lele"


----------



## humble_pie

^^

i don't hang in the tabloids so i never heard of Alicia Machado before. But please tell us more. Is she really "a criminal with drug connections?" 

a criminal has to be charged & convicted first, no? has alicia been convicted? i wouldn't know, could you please fill in.

speaking of professional smears, there are thousands of posts, in this thread alone, calling for "crooked hillary" to be thrown in jail. Yet she has never been even charged with anything.

if we ask What for, Why jail, we are told - in this thread - that MSM, the judicial system & the gummint have all conspired to get her off without any evidence.

just because there is no evidence doesn't mean that hillary clinton is not profoundly guilty, we are told. Just because her security guard turns out to be a regular security guard & not an MD specializing in neurological disorders standing by to shoot her up with an epiPen doesn't mean that hillary clinton is not dying from advanced parkinson's disease, we are told.

hundreds of posts ago - about the time TomB posted that paid trump-thumping nimble.america workers had invaded the internet, including this quaint forgotten corner - everybody decided that this thread has to be a comedy. 

please Rusty it's a sendup. A spoof. Lettuce not be serious.

.


----------



## bass player

Humble...Trump has not been convicted of anything either, therefore, based on your logic, he is completely innocent of all accusations that have been made against him.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The birther rumors originated with Obama himself who claimed in 1991 on his book jacket and press releases to have been born in Kenya.http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...t-1991-born-in-kenya-raised-indonesia-hawaii/
> 
> Some Clinton staffers took it up in 2008 but quickly dropped it. http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...n-campaign-manager-admits-birtherism-started/
> 
> In any case it is too bad Obama never put the rumors to rest by showing his genuine birth certificate although the ones he did show are amusing, especially the one signed "U. K. Lele"


Obama lied about his birth and no one on the left knows this. One has to wonder how many time the Democrats can blatantly lie to their followers until some of them catch on?? How gullible are they?

And, of course, not one single reporter has the balls to question him about this.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "staggered bombing in order to kill rescuers & survivors is standard warfare in our times. Nothing special to do with hillary clinton."
> 
> So in your mind that makes it all right?



i did not say that. Please do not put words in my mouth. 

possibly you should study up on modern warfare though


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The birther rumors originated with Obama himself who claimed in 1991 on his book jacket and press releases to have been born in Kenya.http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...t-1991-born-in-kenya-raised-indonesia-hawaii/
> 
> Some Clinton staffers took it up in 2008 but quickly dropped it. http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...n-campaign-manager-admits-birtherism-started/
> 
> In any case it is too bad Obama never put the rumors to rest by showing his genuine birth certificate although the ones he did show are amusing, especially the one signed "U. K. Lele"




that breitbart piece is far too flimsy to be acceptable as evidence that obama was definitively born anywhere.

the obama entry is a few sentences in a 25-year-old brochure that was published by a now-defunct literary agency named Acton & Dystel. The entry is one among 89 other authors written up in the brochure, which was intended as an anniversary promotion piece for the agency.

the obama entry was never written by obama himself & there would be no evidence that he ever even saw it in draft form. The publishing industry is populated by hack writers who draft flap copy, jacket copy, press releases, promotional brochures such as the one referenced by breitbart. Whether the unknown promotional hacks make mistakes, whether they exaggerate, whether they fail to check facts, is moot.

in addition, the obama book for which an author's thumbnail bio had been scribbled - tentatively entitled Journeys in Black and White - was never published. It existed in manuscript form only.

too flimsy.

.


----------



## 1980z28

I bet on trump to win at work in a fun bet

I am in for 500 on a trump win,,maybe this works with my investing gambling


----------



## olivaw

Poor Trump. He spent five years being the de-facto leader of the birthers. When his handlers told him that it was hurting his chances he held a press conference in which he blamed birtherism on his opponent. Trump supporters believe it was a masterful strategy. Everybody else thinks it is the tactic of a six-year-old who always blames other people for his misdeeds. 

Father (to Trump): _Did you chop down that cherry tree?_
Trump: _I cannot tell a lie father. Hillary Clinton did it._


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Rusty declined to answer so I will. Alicia Machado was Miss Universe who Trump referred to as Miss Piggy and Miss Housekeeping when he was in charge of that organization. When reminded of it, he spent a week personally telling the world that she had a weight problem and tweeting about her (non existent) sex tape. Some people call it tit-for-tat but some people call it evidence of Trump being a bully.
> 
> Now there is a smear campaign against her by the Trump campaign.


She signed a contract where she promised to maintain a certain weight. She broke the contract by gaining 60 pounds and was called out on it. So, Trump called her a name...big deal. 

Bill Clinton raped a woman and no one who supports Hillary seems to care. Put your outrage into perspective.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Poor Trump. He spent five years being the de-facto leader of the birthers. When his handlers told him that it was hurting his chances he held a press conference in which he blamed birtherism on his opponent. Trump supporters believe it was a masterful strategy. Everybody else thinks it is the tactic of a six-year-old who always blames other people for his misdeeds.
> 
> Father (to Trump): _Did you chop down that cherry tree?_
> Trump: _I cannot tell a lie father. Hillary Clinton did it._


Obama either lied or he didn't bother to correct the lie that he was portrayed as Kenyan born. It's not Trump's fault that Obama chose to deceive people.


----------



## humble_pie

1980z28 said:


> I bet on trump to win at work in a fun bet
> 
> I am in for 500 on a trump win,,maybe this works with my investing gambling



to tell the truth, i am not too happy with the way you keep on flipping bank stocks

i feel more secure when i find you digging root cellars or harvesting vegetables or re-wiring kitchens or re-building truck transmissons

.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> She signed a contract where she promised to maintain a certain weight. She broke the contract by gaining 60 pounds and was called out on it. So, Trump called her a name...big deal.
> 
> Bill Clinton raped a woman and no one who supports Hillary seems to care. Put your outrage into perspective.


20 years later, Trump is still outraged that a 19 year old gained weight. It keeps him up at night and drives him to personally tweet lies about her. He's a typical bully, always hitting down. 

You have as much proof of Bill Clinton raping a woman as I have of Donald Trump raping that little girl.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Obama either lied or he didn't bother to correct the lie that he was portrayed as Kenyan born. It's not Trump's fault that Obama chose to deceive people.



how was obama *portrayed* as kenya-born though. By whom portrayed, in the first instance.

all we've got is an anonymous hack writer way back in 1991, writing a couple sentences of marketing copy for a publicity brochure from a literary agent in the publishing industry, who by mistake said barack obama was born in kenya.

in addition the "book" for which the copy was written was never published. 

imho that's too flimsy to be called a *portrayal.*


.


----------



## new dog

What do forum buddies make of the possible drone remark by Clinton on Assange.

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/clinton-assange-drone/

I keep seeing it pop up and is this true. I know she would most likely feel this way but I wonder if it got out there as stated in the link.


----------



## olivaw

I don't read _Drone Strike Times_ or _Civilian Bombing Weekly_ so I have not seen all these reports of the United States and Israel trying extra hard to kill rescue workers, civilians and family members. 

Does anybody have a link?


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Bill Clinton raped a woman and no one who supports Hillary seems to care.



now i'm really agog. Please tell us who he raped & where & when.

this is so much more interesting than alicia machado.


----------



## olivaw

1980z28 said:


> I bet on trump to win at work in a fun bet
> 
> I am in for 500 on a trump win,,maybe this works with my investing gambling


Please tell us you got 5:1 odds. (i.e. your 500 bet pays 2500)?


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> I don't read _Drone Strike Times_ or _Civilian Bombing Weekly_ so I have not seen all these reports of the United States and Israel trying extra hard to kill rescue workers, civilians and family members.
> 
> Does anybody have a link?


It will probably not be found on the mainstream media even if were true and it might be true. The link does seem to show proof of it. Also it could be true that she was joking, so in this case she should be grilled hard in the mainstream media like Trump gets grilled to be fair.


----------



## olivaw

^She is grilled hard on legitimate issues. No serious interviewer is going to grill her about unsubstantiated allegations. 

There is a lawsuit against Trump for raping a 13 year old girl. Should the media grill him hard about it? IMO, no. Unproven allegations against presidential candidates are a dime-a-dozen.


----------



## wraphter

bass player said:


> ...
> 
> Bill Clinton raped a woman and no one who supports Hillary seems to care. Put your outrage into perspective.


Is Bill Clinton running for President? :numbness:


----------



## humble_pie

it's october, clowns are everywhere, so why not?

the media behind the clinton drone accusations turns out to be a fun zine called True Pundit.

do u need a true laugh? read True Pundit. They're crazy about Duterte of the philippines, who has managed to extra-judicially murder thousands of philippinos just since he was elected a few months ago, by sending vigilante killers on motorcycles into poor neighbourhoods to slaughter anyone suspected of drug dealing. No trial, no evidence, just a drive-by lynching.

funnest article in True Pundit: re the Terror Tuesdays when hillary clinton, barack obama plus "the highest ranking members of the US government" would "convey [sic]" on the White House Situation Room to name names for the Drone Killing List du jour.

by an undocumented stretch, True Pundit manages to suggest that jullian assange may have been on one of those Drone Lists du jour.

http://truepundit.com/fueled-by-hil...founder-for-obama-controlled-drone-kill-list/


.


----------



## bass player

wraphter said:


> Is Bill Clinton running for President? :numbness:
> 
> Put your outrage into perspective.


Hillary is running, and she publicly attacked the women who have accused Bill of sexual assault. This is the same Hillary who stated that all women of sexual assaults deserve to have their voices heard.

I guess all women deserve to be heard....except, of course, those that have been in contact with Bill.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw if donald trump is elected, the only way forward is clear.

all good parties will want to move to the Rock. Cultivate vegetables, catch fish, make wine from wild berries plucked by the seashore. Hide out in root cellars when the drones are sighted.

.


----------



## olivaw

^We must cultivate carrots. Good for the eyes so we can spot drones.


----------



## mrPPincer

^Or better yet, cultivate hackers to hack drones, & doritos to feed them* 

*(the hackers, not the drones)


----------



## mrPPincer

^ps. I'm sure google would have the info on how to cultivate doritos, unless it's already been hacked by the men in black.


----------



## olivaw

^ Yes Doritos, goes without saying that you need Doritos in the post-Trump apocalyptic world.


----------



## sags

The head of the CIA recently said they have been targeting the leader of ISIS for a long time, and have had opportunities to enact a drone attack on him.

They haven't yet because the situation would have created a lot of casualties. ISIS ensures their leader is always in a crowd of civilians.

Perhaps there were drone attacks that involved second and third wave strikes, but it doesn't sound like it is current policy.

Maybe under the George W. Bush administration ? 

They approved waterboarding and other forms of torture, so waves of drone attacks wouldn't be implausible.

Yes that is probably it. It was the Republicans.


----------



## mrPPincer

I read somewhere that it was the Republicans.


----------



## sags

I seem to recall that Dick Cheney was involved............


----------



## sags

Donald Trump practiced for the town hall by being grilled by a supporter on some tough questions like.....

Who do you think will win the World Series and what was your favorite food as a child.

He will be fully prepared this time.


----------



## bass player

I wonder how many plants with pre-arranged questions the Democrats will manage to round up??


----------



## mrPPincer

^Infinite would work, because I've heard Hillary has already prepared for them all :smile-new:


----------



## olivaw

Predicted debate question: 

Audience member: _Secretary Clinton, please tell us how Donald Trump pulls the wings off butterflies_
Clinton: _Slowly while laughing_
Trump (rebuttal): _The butterflies deserved it_


----------



## sags

Heck, building a wall isn't even Donald Trump's idea. 

Part of one was built.........sort of, and it has taken the Congress 10 years to decide what color to paint it. (A Lewis Black punch line)

Donald Trump's wall will require eminent domain laws to seize land from Americans, cost billions of dollars to traverse a wildly diverse landscape and will ultimately require that Mexico ban all ladders and shovels so people can't just hop over the wall or dig under it.

What if they build giant catapults and fling people over the wall ? I could see that as a health and safety issue.


----------



## olivaw

CNN is all over the lewd comments by Trump and Billy Bush on the bus in 2005. 

Billy Bush issued a full apology.

In a brief non-apology, Trump tried to shift to Bill Clinton.

ETA: The normal Trump surrogate wants a full apology from Trump. The Republican strategist wants Trump to withdraw.


----------



## sags

If I were Hillary Clinton..........I would be hoping that Trump continues as the nominee.

I am thinking that if Trump maintains the support of the Republican Party and wins the election, anyone involved in any kind of social activism, social justice, or any cause that seeks to improve human behavior...........might as well just give up because after decades of trying they haven't had enough impact to make a difference.

They may as well accept that America is a very dark place to live and raise a family.

It would be a much darker place than most would have imagined and could no longer be considered a beacon to the world.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> CNN is all over the lewd comments by Trump and Billy Bush on the bus in 2005.


First 1995, now 2005. CNN's desperation to find something to hold over Trump is failing miserably. No wonder their ratings are in the tank.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> If I were Hillary Clinton..........I would be hoping that Trump continues as the nominee.


Hillary probably wishes it was anyone other than Trump because The Donald is the one person where the typical Democrat attacks don't work like they worked on most other people. Rather than cave in to their racist and sexist attacks and outright lies he simply goes on the attack and leaves them floundering foolishly. He is playing them like a pro and they are too stupid to catch on.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> If I were Hillary Clinton..........I would be hoping that Trump continues as the nominee.
> 
> I am thinking that if Trump maintains the support of the Republican Party and wins the election, anyone involved in any kind of social activism, social justice, or any cause that seeks to improve human behavior...........might as well just give up because after decades of trying they haven't had enough impact to make a difference.
> 
> They may as well accept that America is a very dark place to live and raise a family.
> 
> It would be a much darker place than most would have imagined and could no longer be considered a beacon to the world.



With Hillary, America is going to stay a dark place and get worse, probably never to recover again as the corruption intensifies. 

Under Trump, it most likely won't get anywhere but democracy would have spoken and the people will have power. If he wins, it will be despite the best efforts of the media and who ever else that tried to stop him. Brexit was the first big win for the people and Trump will be the second if he wins.

Of course like I said he may not be the one but at least the people had spoken.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Rather than cave in to their racist and sexist attacks and outright lies he simply goes on the attack and leaves them floundering foolishly.



what racist & sexist attacks though? 

i mean, the video was the video. Donald trump said what he said. Are you implying it was only a body double?

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> what racist & sexist attacks though?
> 
> i mean, the video was the video. Donald trump said what he said. Are you implying it was only a body double?
> 
> .


Trump hasn't said anything worse than what Hillary has said over the years.

And, as new dog said...people are sick and tired and want the corruption to end. For that to happen, Hillary can't be elected. Trump isn't the perfect choice, but he's by far the better choice for those who want change.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Trump hasn't said anything worse than what Hillary has said over the years.



what kind of racist & sexist language has hillary uttered over the years? please be specific. 


might i add a reminder. Hours ago i asked you who bill clinton had raped & where & when, since you'd said clinton had raped a woman. This is a serious allegation. Are you having any luck with your search for this news? or is it another case of Didn't Happen so Made Up the Story.



bass player said:


> Bill Clinton raped a woman and no one who supports Hillary seems to care.



.


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> Trump hasn't said anything worse than what Hillary has said over the years.
> 
> And, as new dog said...people are sick and tired and want the corruption to end. For that to happen, Hillary can't be elected. Trump isn't the perfect choice, but he's by far the better choice for those who want change.



Sorry bass but in the very short to very short term Hillary is the best choice and in the long term everyone is screwed. WW 3 is probable and we go farther down the rabbit hole. Of course true long term financial types that should be on the forum see this but most here are in it for the short term. So much for investing in the long term.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> I wonder how many plants with pre-arranged questions the Democrats will manage to round up??


And it's the Dems who posit conspiracies??


----------



## new dog

Dems are lucky as they are already have the high ground given to them. So they can sit back and it is up to everyone else to to come up with proof on anything. Thus they do not have to go long and can run the ball and do not have to take chances.


----------



## new dog

If you come right down to it the humbles, sags and olivaws would all be for slavery, racism and bashing gays back in the day because that was the in thing to do. Those who have their own mind will think and weigh the evidence and then make up their own minds.


----------



## indexxx

new dog said:


> Those who have their own mind will think and weigh the evidence and then make up their own minds.


I asked this upthread but received no response. I am very curious; if the right wing feel they are supposedly the free thinkers, why is it that a vast majority of conservatives also identify as believing in a supreme being, whose word dictates how to live? 

I've always felt, (and I mean no offence here, but it is what I've thought) that by the very definition, conservatives lean towards a more traditional mindset and a more or less uniform way of thinking/looking at the world, where liberals, as the word connotes, would tend towards a more open and forward-looking view and acceptance of diversity and progressive thought. It's always baffled me how much vitriol is directed toward the left- even on this thread, when I read over some of the posts, it seems that there is a much higher level of personal attacks and insults towards other members coming from the Trump supporters on here. I'm really just trying to understand- I mean, if one looks at other areas of the world, it's the 'conservative' fundamentalists that are the hardline problem makers, and the 'moderate' groups that affect change and social progress. Am I completely off base here?


----------



## mrPPincer

indexxx said:


> Am I completely off base here?


Yes!
You are 1000 feet above the playfield


----------



## new dog

Bluejays all the way. Sorry play field the base thing how can one resist.

Actually indexxx I have no problem voting either way, if I feel it is right but it does seem like the Hillary leaners go with the popular mainstream media view on things no matter what it is. As far as this thread goes that is how it is shaping up.


----------



## Eder

humble_pie said:


> what racist & sexist attacks though?
> 
> i mean, the video was the video. Donald trump said what he said. Are you implying it was only a body double?
> 
> .


Bill said Hillary are more pu**y than he did...I guess that wasn't sexist?


----------



## Eder

If religion card is played then I get to play the Nazi card right?


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> If you come right down to it the humbles, sags and olivaws would all be for slavery, racism and bashing gays back in the day because that was the in thing to do. Those who have their own mind will think and weigh the evidence and then make up their own minds.


If you come right down to it the dogcoms and new dogs would be all for slavery, racism, child labour, gay persecution, antisemitism, wifebeating and xenophobia back in the day because that was what the guys down at the bar told them to be for.


----------



## olivaw

Now that Trump has apologized publicly, lets talk about Friday's endorsements:

Hillary picked up
- Rudy Giuliani's daughter 
- A group of major American business leaders

Trump picked up
- The guy who wrote that book about how to manipulate women into sleeping with you


----------



## indexxx

new dog said:


> Bluejays all the way. Sorry play field the base thing how can one resist.
> 
> Actually indexxx I have no problem voting either way, if I feel it is right but it does seem like the Hillary leaners go with the popular mainstream media view on things no matter what it is. As far as this thread goes that is how it is shaping up.


Thank you for the response. Personally, as I have not owned a TV for 26 years or so, and do not read newspapers nor listen to the news (aside from a few articles of personal interest like science reports), main stream media has no hold on me. I followed Obama's campaigns a bit online out of interest as I found him very engaging as a speaker and admit to wanting the colour 'barrier' broken at the time (and to see Bush go bye-bye) but this is the first time I've watched any presidential debates etc. What little exposure I have had to the American right wing has been on shock-oriented programs like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, etc- played around a relative's house several years ago. It did rub me the wrong way and Trump has done nothing to improve that. I think he's an interesting character, probably a decent man at heart and probably thinks he himself means very well; however he seems a bit of a blowhard, kind of mean and spiteful, and quite ignorant and not really aware of what his government's place in the world could or should be. Again, shock value does not a leader make. In my opinion.


----------



## heyjude

The 2005 tape has unmasked Trump as a sexual predator. No woman with any self respect can now vote for him unless she is in complete denial.

This is Nate Silver's prediction if no woman votes for Trump.


----------



## sags

When I first heard about the comments and listened to them, I thought............okay, how long ago was this, because as New Dog said I have heard similar talk from lots of men over the years. I worked in big factories dominated by males. It was a rough and tumble culture. I played all the sports and there is a lot of "locker room talk"........but then I found out that this was only 11 years ago and Trump was 59 years old when he said these things.

I can't imagine a scenario where I would be with my 60 year old friends and have one of them talk like that and then giggle about it.

A best case scenario and excuse for Trump is that he is severely immature, and that alone would make him unsuitable to be President.


----------



## sags

That electoral map illustrates the level of discomfort shown by female Trump supporters on panel shows on CNN while listening to the tape.

They had a......."Thank goodness this will be over in a month and I can go work for a normal candidate somewhere" look on their faces.

More news reports of Trump behavior are popping up all over the place now and it will only make advocating for Trump more difficult.


----------



## olivaw

At first I thought this was just guy talk too. Later, we were chatting with friends. One of the women reminded us that Trump had bragged about sexual assault.


----------



## sags

Let's be honest.

People in places of power and influence have used their position to gain sexual advantage since time began.

There would be a long list of CEOs, celebrities and politicians.........mostly but not exclusively males, whose names would be on it.

Although their behavior is equally offensive, they are not seeking the office of President of the United States.

So....shocked, outraged, whatever....aren't the emotions I feel. I have heard it all too many times in the past for that.

I just think Trump is as unfit for the position as a lewd and leering drunk in a bar would be.


----------



## sags

Also on the tape is Billy Bush, giggling at Trump's comments.

Bush is the nephew of George H. Bush and is a cousin to Jeb and George W.

Interesting that this tape surfaced at this most crucial time.

Hmmm.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> If you come right down to it the dogcoms and new dogs would be all for slavery, racism, child labour, gay persecution, antisemitism, wifebeating and xenophobia back in the day because that was what the guys down at the bar told them to be for.



This made me laugh and it is probably true back in the day many will follow whatever the popular movement and thinking of the day is. To truly think for yourself you will be in a minority no matter what party you belong to. Sags is also right on sports teams most will talk crap and would never say that today outside the locker room.

Indexxx looking back I would say Rush Limbaugh would be the worst the way he used to go after Bill Clinton and then we got Bush and he was probably the worst president ever. Reflecting back I would say there is truth to everything we are saying in this part of the thread.

What I hope going forward for people in the US and Canada is that we truthfully look at our choices and make the best decisions we can. On this election, Trump looks like all the bad people are saying here but is the choice for democracy if elected. Clinton if she wins without widespread voting irregularities and does so convincingly then that is how America wants it as long as they made the choice. No matter their pick if done democratically and the president is horrible which it looks like, then the next election could really be the wild one that shakes the nation to real change.


----------



## sags

It is painfully obvious on the video that Trump wants to project an image that he doesn't have.

He is standing in the bus, looking out the window and commenting on the legs of the woman waiting for him.

When he gets out of the bus, he greets her warmly and ends up with a hug.

Then..........walking down the corridor, Billy Bush makes a comment about Trump's attraction to pretty women and Trump cuts him off and looks angry about it. He doesn't want any mention of his true person.

He is a chameleon, which I said on the first page of posts on this forum.

I have known guys like him all my life. They think one way but try to project another.

Isn't that Sexual Predatory 101 though ? They never want to reveal their true nature.


----------



## SMK

The latest on Trump might hurt rather than help Clinton in my opinion, because Bill Clinton is the person running for co-president-first husband, and the man with his own sleazy sexual history. Trump now has the big opening he's wanted to talk about Bill and his constant defender wife. 

Wasn't Bill the one that had forced parents to explain "oral sex" to their children back in the 90s? 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...998289ffcea_story.html?utm_term=.d61ed9fbbdec


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> what kind of racist & sexist language has hillary uttered over the years? please be specific.


Super predators was one comment. She also publicly calling the women who her husband sexually assaulted bimbos and trailer trash.



humble_pie said:


> might i add a reminder. Hours ago i asked you who bill clinton had raped & where & when, since you'd said clinton had raped a woman. This is a serious allegation. Are you having any luck with your search for this news? or is it another case of Didn't Happen so Made Up the Story.


Juanita Broaddrick.


----------



## SMK

Fox, but hard to disagree with it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a_ZjUgij9o


----------



## heyjude

olivaw said:


> At first I thought this was just guy talk too. Later, we were chatting with friends. One of the women reminded us that Trump had bragged about sexual assault.


Exactly. Look at this from a woman's point of view, if you can. Imagine going to work in a Trump White House. A chastity belt would be the best underwear.


----------



## bass player

heyjude said:


> Exactly. Look at this from a woman's point of view, if you can. Imagine going to work in a Trump White House. A chastity belt would be the best underwear.


Let me fix that for you:

Look at this from a woman's point of view, if you can. Imagine going to work in a Bill Clinton White House. A chastity belt would be the best underwear.


----------



## heyjude

Neither Bill Clinton nor Donald Trump are saints. But Donald Trump is on the ticket in 2016. There is an opportunity for the American public to make sure he does not become President.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I actually listened to the tape. The big revelation.... Trump attempted to seduce a married woman...... by taking her furniture shopping..... and struck out. That and a bunch of meaningless trash talk. Possibly the lamest show biz sex scandal ever.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> It is painfully obvious on the video that Trump wants to project an image that he doesn't have.
> 
> He is standing in the bus, looking out the window and commenting on the legs of the woman waiting for him.
> 
> When he gets out of the bus, he greets her warmly and ends up with a hug.
> 
> Then..........walking down the corridor, Billy Bush makes a comment about Trump's attraction to pretty women and Trump cuts him off and looks angry about it. He doesn't want any mention of his true person.
> 
> He is a chameleon, which I said on the first page of posts on this forum.
> 
> I have known guys like him all my life. They think one way but try to project another.
> 
> Isn't that Sexual Predatory 101 though ? They never want to reveal their true nature.


Talks trash in private, acts polite when women are around. Typical behavior for a well brought up man of his generation.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Talks trash in private, acts polite when women are around. Typical behavior for a well brought up man of his generation.


Both women and men have been making comments about the opposite sex to friends ever since men and women existed. Nothing to see....move along.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Both women and men have been making comments about the opposite sex to friends ever since men and women existed. Nothing to see....move along.


The difference is that Donald Trump hasn't grown up. 

He still has the maturity level of a 20 year old male and is missing the filter between his brain and his mouth.

Nobody knows his past and his thoughts better than Donald Trump himself. What made him believe he should be the President ?


----------



## bass player

No one really believes that a couple comments by Trump are worse than decades of corruption by the Clintons. 

Just as you see Trump as unfit, far many more people see Hillary as more unfit. No one else in the world has the power to have the head of the FBI publicly state that even though she broke the law on several occasions and breached national security, no charges will be laid. That charade has convinced many of the people that may have given her the benefit of the doubt before that she really is corrupt. A couple sexist comments by Trump are meaningless when compared to that.


----------



## olivaw

Trump says that he is definitely not going to quit the race. 

Hillary Clinton's reaction.


----------



## sags

In days gone by, someone like Trump would be have been called a dirty old man.

Thank goodness for Donald Trump that political correctness saves him from wearing the moniker and people just say he is unfit for the job.


----------



## sags

LOL............Happy days in the Clinton household.


----------



## sags

Monday's town hall and a female audience member asks Donald Trump........"you see anyone in the audience you would like to grope ?"

Maybe they will have to ban all "groping questions"........a unique rule in the annals of time.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

There are plenty of reasons Trump would make a lousy President starting with a complete lack of political experience and an apparent ignorance of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.


----------



## olivaw

I hope they make Trump wear thick mittens to the town hall debate tomorrow - for the protection of the female audience members.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

So how do you feel about Bill Clinton being back in the White House?


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> LOL............Happy days in the Clinton household.


I don't think they are celebrating just yet, probably more worried about the latest WikiLeaks.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> The difference is that Donald Trump hasn't grown up.
> 
> He still has the maturity level of a 20 year old male and is missing the filter between his brain and his mouth.
> 
> Nobody knows his past and his thoughts better than Donald Trump himself. What made him believe he should be the President ?


To be fair, he was 11 years younger when that tape was made and his 'filter' kicked in as soon as a lady arrived on the scene.


----------



## olivaw

Trump was 59 at the time. 

59 is the new 19?


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> So how do you feel about Bill Clinton being back in the White House?


Bill Clinton was a womanizer. Might have to make him wear a chastity belt. 

Donald Trump is a groper. All the women will need to wear the chastity belts. 

(suggested by Heyjude upstream)


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> LOL............Happy days in the Clinton household.


I doubt there has ever been real happiness in the Clinton household. People that morally corrupt don't know what real happiness is, they only understand their own greed.

Hillary is far from happy...she is facing the only person the Democrat and media machine can't beat with their standard tactics.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Bill Clinton was a womanizer. Might have to make him wear a chastity belt.
> 
> Donald Trump is a groper. All the women will need to wear the chastity belts.
> 
> (suggested by Heyjude upstream)


Womanizers don't make $800,000 payouts to women. That was hush money.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Hillary is far from happy...she is facing the only person the Democrat and media machine can't beat with their standard tactics.


How come she is beating that person?


----------



## olivaw

We may be seeing the beginning of a GOP stampede away from Trump. As of 2:30 ET
- 17 Republican officials have rescinded their support, 
- the number of GOP officials who definitely won't vote for Trump now sits at 41
- 62 GOP officials are undecided, up from 45 before the tape was released. 
- Female Republicans are demonstrating particular antipathy towards DJT. 

Source: Nate Silver http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republican-officials-are-fleeing-trump-in-droves/


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> We may be seeing the beginning of a GOP stampede away from Trump. As of 2:30 ET
> - 17 Republican officials have rescinded their support,
> - the number of GOP officials who definitely won't vote for Trump now sits at 41
> - 62 GOP officials are undecided, up from 45 before the tape was released.
> - Female Republicans are demonstrating particular antipathy towards DJT.
> 
> Source: Nate Silver http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republican-officials-are-fleeing-trump-in-droves/


... or as bass player and Nelley would phrase it, "An overwhelming Trump victory is set in stone."


----------



## mrPPincer

One month to go and already it seems the only question that remains is can the GOP retain the senate.


----------



## TomB19

For sure. You never know, though.


----------



## indexxx

heyjude said:


> Neither Bill Clinton nor Donald Trump are saints. But Donald Trump is on the ticket in 2016. There is an opportunity for the American public to make sure he does not become President.


I agree- and I feel that if Bill's behaviour had been made public BEFORE he was elected, he rightfully never would have gotten in.


----------



## indexxx

Rusty O'Toole said:


> So how do you feel about Bill Clinton being back in the White House?


Last I looked, Bill Clinton is not running for President.


----------



## indexxx

Interesting:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/donald-tr...o-major-newspaper-endorsements-000943174.html


----------



## indexxx

Donny, it's over.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/stampede-republicans-abandon-trump-historic-233837450.html


BTW- just watched 'the video'. Incredibly shameful- I'm not one who shocks easily, but holy crap what a douchelord.


----------



## gibor365

indexxx said:


> Donny, it's over.
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/stampede-republicans-abandon-trump-historic-233837450.html
> 
> 
> BTW- just watched 'the video'. Incredibly shameful- I'm not one who shocks easily, but holy crap what a douchelord.


Can you post link to this video?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

indexxx said:


> Last I looked, Bill Clinton is not running for President.


He's married to Hillary.


----------



## mordko

indexxx said:


> Donny, it's over.
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/stampede-republicans-abandon-trump-historic-233837450.html
> 
> 
> BTW- just watched 'the video'. Incredibly shameful- I'm not one who shocks easily, but holy crap what a douchelord.


Honestly, not sure what all the fuss is about. Sure, he is talking like an unpleasant and trashy teenager, but how is it different from everything else Trump says? Besides, Trumps misogyny, while very obvious, is only a distraction from the real issues. Like his complete incompetence, racism, ignorance and general stupidity.


----------



## heyjude

After this train wreck, Melania will probably divorce DT. His brand is in ruins. He will probably be bankrupt (again) within a couple of years.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> Honestly, not sure what all the fuss is about. Sure, he is talking like an unpleasant and trashy teenager, but how is it different from everything else Trump says? Besides, Trumps misogyny, while very obvious, is only a distraction from the real issues. Like his complete incompetence, racism, ignorance and general stupidity.


I didn't get it at first until my wife and I were chatting with friends. One of the women said that Trump had crossed a unique line when he bragged about sexual assault in the form of uninvited kissing and grabbing women by the p...y. 

That doesn't excuse the racism, the ignorance, the incompetence and the nastinest. Those attributes make it more difficult to forgive him and may explain the exodus of support.

This morning he tweeted an unsubstantiated allegation of rape against Bill Clinton. He needs to be careful. There is an as-yet unsubstantiated allegation that Trump raped a 13 year old girl.


----------



## indexxx

gibor365 said:


> Can you post link to this video?


https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...9ce776-8cb4-11e6-bf8a-3d26847eeed4_story.html


----------



## olivaw

heyjude said:


> After this train wreck, Melania will probably divorce DT. His brand is in ruins. He will probably be bankrupt (again) within a couple of years.


He doesn't even build any more. He rents his name out to other companies and values "Trump" brand goodwill at 4 or 5B. That brand may be worthless after this.


----------



## indexxx

"The Art of Self-Destruct" by Donald T Rump

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...hes-gop-unity-as-party-fears-easy-clinton-win


----------



## andrewf

It's amazing that there is a straw that could break the back of Trump's campaign. Or amazing that it didn't come sooner. Sunday ought to be interesting.


----------



## new dog

I hear that kind of joking crap talk all the time when men are just talking at work or where ever. I don't approve of it but men are always talking that way when no one else is around to hear them.

However he is trying to be president of the US so he shouldn't be talking like this. On Sunday he should come right out and address it off the top and apologize without attacking Bill or whatever. Otherwise I can't see how he can move on in the debate and be taken seriously.


----------



## mordko

new dog said:


> I hear that kind of joking crap talk all the time when men are just talking at work or where ever. I don't approve of it but men are always talking that way when no one else is around to hear them.


I haven't heard anyone over 20 talk like this. Wonder what kind of business you are in.


----------



## sags

Trump is a relic from the past who failed to move on.

As a rich and powerful man he has no doubt been pursued by ambitious young women and his past success at it gave him no reason to change his attitude. His failure to change as he approached his senior years serves to illustrate his level of immaturity.

Does anyone believe he would be married to Melania if he was a plumber from Idaho ? Trump's attitude has been reinforced his whole life.

His attitudes, demeanor, personality are ingrained and make him as unsuitable for the position of President as I am to fly F-16 fighter jets.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Trump is a relic from the past who failed to move on.
> 
> As a rich and powerful man he has no doubt been pursued by ambitious young women and his past success at it gave him no reason to change his attitude. His failure to change as he approached his senior years serves to illustrate his level of immaturity.
> 
> Does anyone believe he would be married to Melania if he was a plumber from Idaho ? Trump's attitude has been reinforced his whole life.
> 
> His attitudes, demeanor, personality are ingrained and make him as unsuitable for the position of President as I am to fly F-16 fighter jets.


His goose is cooked and it's not even American Thanksgiving yet.

It's good that someone out there in the media empire, released damaging information to his campaign on how he really behaves
behind the scenes or in front of the camera.
His TV reality show (The Apprentice) revealed his personality early on, and it was probably toned down a bit to make it more
palatable for the viewers. Besides being a misogynist, he's a blowhard given the chance. 
The worst kind of president the US would ever see, if he even had a chance of winning, and now he's pretty much given the race to Clinton. 

She has been smart not to get into the smear campaign, letting Trump shoot himself in the foot.

I wouldn't be surprised if he is forced to resign in the next few weeks, as the media takes him down another notch or two. 

Now that the media has been fueled to dig up as much dirt as they can on him (not paying income taxes, misogynist attitude to women, etc,) the previous presidential campaign ...Romney's "shown binders full of women'"remark seems pale by comparison. 



> By day's end, Trump was reduced to insisting repeatedly he wasn't going to quit the race, and the fate of Indiana Governor Mike Pence as his running mate did not seem fully assured, as *some Republicans were seeking a way to make Pence the presidential contender, not Trump.
> *
> For her part, Clinton made clear through her campaign officials that she would abide by the oldest rule in politics: when your opponent is self-destructing, stay out of the way. Campaign officials said she would not speak of the videotape until the debate Sunday -- all the better to marshal its political and emotional punch in prime time.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> He's married to Hillary.


Selective outrage. No one does it like the left...


----------



## bass player

indexxx said:


> I agree- and I feel that if Bill's behaviour had been made public BEFORE he was elected, he rightfully never would have gotten in.


The media has been lying to people for decades....Bill's behavior was well known and the media made a deliberate choice to lie for the Clintons.

Nothing has changed...the media continues to lie for the left and those on the left continue to wallow in ignorance.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump is a confirmed dirty old man...and as his VP says...that is on him.

If Americans elect a dirty old man as their president...it is on them.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Donald Trump is a confirmed dirty old man..............and as his VP says............that is on him.
> 
> If Americans elect a dirty old man as their president..............it is on them.


They already elected a dirty old man...Bill Clinton. Except he was worse than dirty, he was a sexual predator. And, his wife was okay with his actions. In fact, she even defended him and publicly attacked the women he assaulted.

The selective amnesia displayed by the Hillary supporters is mind boggling.


----------



## bass player

According to the left, this is a list of what disqualifies a person from running as president:

- crude locker room talk

According to the left, this is a list of acceptable behavior for presidents and presidential candidates:

*Getting blowjobs under the Resolute desk in the Oval Office.
*Beating, attempting to rape, and actually raping women.
*Having multiple affairs while serving as president.
*Paying an $800,000 dollar settlement to one of the aforementioned women.
*Committing perjury while serving as president, causing the loss of one’s law license.
*Being impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors.
*Hiring private detectives against, and destroying the character, reputations and lives of, women abused by the President.
*Calling those women–“bimbo eruptions”–all manner of cruel and vicious names in the process of destroying their reputations and lives.
*Brutally mistreating White House staff assigned to care for you.
*Badly mistreating military liaisons to the White House.
*Badly mistreating Secret Service Agents assigned to preserve your life.
*Ignoring more than 600 calls for help by an ambassador, resulting in his death and the deaths of three more brave Americans.
*Keeping an American military rescue force on the ground for hours trying to decide whether they would be allowed to fly to the rescue in their uniforms, or whether they should go in civvies and unarmed (they never were allowed to go, but had to change their clothing many times).
*Lying to the American people, and the survivors of the Americans killed, at Benghazi.
*Lying about lying to the American people about Benghazi.
*Operating a pay for play scam out of the Secretary of State’s office.
*Destroying entire nations and enabling the establishment of terrorist armies.
*Illegally obtaining FBI files of political enemies and hiding them in the White House for years.
*Operating an illegal private server to hide one’s criminal acts.
*Destroying evidence under subpoena.
*Lying, repeatedly to the American people, the Congress, and the FBI, about just about everything.
*Lying when the truth would have made far more sense.
*Exposing America’s most sensitive national security secrets to our worst enemies.
*Absolutely corrupting the Department of Justice and the FBI.

Vote Democrat...they really care about justice, fairness, and the people


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> They already elected a dirty old man...Bill Clinton. Except he was worse than dirty, he was a sexual predator. And, his wife was okay with his actions. In fact, she even defended him and publicly attacked the women he assaulted.
> 
> The selective amnesia displayed by the Hillary supporters is mind boggling.


Trump brags about sexual assault--does that not make him a predator?


----------



## SMK

indexxx said:


> I agree- and I feel that if Bill's behaviour had been made public BEFORE he was elected, he rightfully never would have gotten in.


Wrong! His sexual scandals were public but got elected anyway. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvR62T1gO0w

Donald and Bill are sexual predators.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Donald Trump: I'd never withdraw. I've never withdrawn in my life. (phone conversations with Robert [email protected])

Kim Campbell: Too bad his father didn't withdraw! (Sorry couldn't resist) (Kim [email protected])

Is this crack sexist and degrading? Should it forever debar Kim Campbell from holding public office? Discuss.


----------



## carverman

andrewf said:


> Trump brags about sexual assault--does that not make him a predator?


No, unless he has committed these acts in the past and the women he did it to come forward, like with Bill Cosby and the alleged 57 women that claimed that he drugged then assaulted them.
Of course in America, big money payoff settlements take precedence over justice sometimes. 

I'm sure that if there is anyone that comes forward from Trump's exploitation background,
we won't hear about it until after the election, as there will be quick payout to shut them up. 

In November, the American public will have to decide on the lesser of two evils...an America under Trump's corrupted Republican administration 

OR under Clinton's "somewhat corrupted" Democratic administration, each will have their crisis and fiasco to deal with as time unfolds.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Donald Trump: I'd never withdraw. I've never withdrawn in my life. (phone conversations with Robert [email protected])
> 
> Kim Campbell: Too bad his father didn't withdraw! (Sorry couldn't resist) (Kim [email protected])
> 
> Is this crack sexist and degrading? Should it forever debar Kim Campbell from holding public office? Discuss.


Are we in imminent danger on a Kim Campbell resurgence? I think there is a difference in the vulgarity of the comments.


----------



## wraphter

carverman said:


> No, unless he has committed these acts in the past and the women he did it to come forward,



Indeed a woman has come forward with complaints about his aggressive groping and sexual assault.What happened to this woman was very similar the pattern of behaviour Trump describes to Billy Bush on the bus.

"The Groper in Chief" by Nicholas Kristof in the NYT.



> Harth and her longtime boyfriend were in meetings with Trump to forge a business partnership. “He was relentless,” Harth recalled in an interview, describing how on Dec. 12, 1992, he took the couple to dinner and a club — and then situated himself beside Harth and ran his hands up her skirt, to her crotch. “I didn’t know how to handle it. I would go away from him and say I have to go to the restroom. It was the escape route.”
> 
> 
> .............
> 
> 
> Harth and Houraney were simply an ordinary Florida couple thrilled that Trump wanted to partner with them. And that’s when the nightmare began. (Trump strongly denies these improprieties.) Anyone thinking about voting for Trump would do well to listen to Houraney and Harth.
> 
> ..............
> 
> 
> “You know, there’s going to be a problem,” Trump told Houraney, according to a 1997 sexual harassment lawsuit Harth filed against him. “I’m very attracted to your girlfriend.”
> 
> ...........
> 
> He offered Harth a tour of the estate and then pulled her into the empty bedroom of his daughter Ivanka.
> 
> “I was admiring the decoration, and next thing I know he’s pushing me against a wall and has his hands all over me,” Harth told me. “He was trying to kiss me. I was freaking out.” Harth says she was desperately protesting, and finally managed to run out of the room and find the group again. She and Houraney left rather than stay the night, as they had intended.



It was important to Trump that Harth was involved with another man.This is very similar to the conversation on the bus
where he talks about pursuing a married woman. He wants the woman to be married so he can show his dominance
by taking her away from the other man. This turns him on.

He also assaults Harth in his daughter Ivanka's empty bedroom. He is acting out his sexual fantasies toward his daughter.
There is a pretty good fit between what happened to Harth and the description of his actions Trump relates on the bus.


----------



## bass player

An unproven complaint about Trump in the highly biased New York Times is worthy of bird cage lining.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> Trump is a relic from the past who failed to move on.
> 
> As a rich and powerful man he has no doubt been pursued by ambitious young women and his past success at it gave him no reason to change his attitude. His failure to change as he approached his senior years serves to illustrate his level of immaturity.
> 
> Does anyone believe he would be married to Melania if he was a plumber from Idaho ? Trump's attitude has been reinforced his whole life.
> 
> His attitudes, demeanor, personality are ingrained and make him as unsuitable for the position of President as I am to fly F-16 fighter jets.


His statement that 'when you are a star you can gets away with anything' shows his ego and his abuse of power and position.


----------



## olivaw

The town hall debate will be in front of several dozen undecided voters. Are they still undecided after watching the video? 

An ABC News/SSRS flash poll found:

- 43% of Americans believe that Trump should withdraw as the nominee
- 53% are less likely to vote for Trump after hearing the tape
- When only women are counted, 62% are less like to vote for Trump


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Mike Pence Donald Trump's pick for VP is a Creationist who does not believe in Evolution. This bothers me more than Trump's potty mouth. Listen to this speech if you don't believe me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urjPLxAQ3qc


----------



## sags

Regardless of which team you root for...........it should be an epic match up.

Probably 80-100 million Americans will be viewing the debate. Many millions more around the world.

If nothing else, Trump has revived interest in US politics. He is actually right on one thing.......he is good for ratings.


----------



## sags

Mike Pence is an old time religion conservative, but I would sleep easier at night thinking he had control of the nukes.......instead of Trump.

Unless he is one of those religious freaks who want to bring on Armageddon, so we can all go to heaven in a little row boat.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Mike Pence Donald Trump's pick for VP is a Creationist who does not believe in Evolution. This bothers me more than Trump's potty mouth. Listen to this speech if you don't believe me.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urjPLxAQ3qc


Small thing, but I wish those anti-evolution folks understood the word "theory". In the scientific community, a theory is an accepted model borne out by the evidence. 

Trump can't actually step aside. There isn't enough time to put a new name on the ballot in all 50 states.


----------



## mrPPincer

I predict 

1.he will get crushed again (Hillary doesn't even have to say much, just give him rope enough to inevitably hang himself with).
2. the SNL people will be ecstatic with the material and once again provide us with a hearty laugh.


----------



## sags

Creationists simply ignore all scientific evidence.

A creationist asks Richard Dawson about the evolution of the human eye, and while Dawkins is giving a detailed reply, the guy interjects to ask how humans went pee if it took millions of years to evolve. 

How is it possible to debate with such a person ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4ngL3wUptY


----------



## mrPPincer

olivaw said:


> Small thing, but I wish those anti-evolution folks understood the word "theory". In the scientific community, a theory is an accepted model borne out by the evidence.


Yeah, he wants intelligent design to be accepted as a theory by the school system.
Imagine how the peer reviews would go for that one in the scientific community 

Um, sir, you've written your paper out in crayon?


----------



## bass player

How do the women who claim to be offended by Trump's locker room talk and say they'll vote for Hillary explain away her decades long marriage to a sexual predator?


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> How do the women who claim to be offended by Trump's locker room talk and say they'll vote for Hillary explain away her decades long marriage to a sexual predator?


It beats me how you guys keep calling mr Clinton a sexual predator.

He screwed around and got caught but it was consensual.

That is a very different thing from sexually assaulting people against their will and bragging about getting away with it because of one's position of power over them.

If you can't tell the difference .. wow


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> It beats me how you guys keep calling mr Clinton a sexual predator.
> 
> He screwed around and got caught but it was consensual.
> 
> That is a very different thing from sexually assaulting people against their will and bragging about getting away with it because of one's position of power over them.
> 
> If you can't tell the difference .. wow


Juanita Broaddrick wasn't a "fling"....unless, of course the progressive definition of fling is "rape":


----------



## mrPPincer

For clarity.

What Trump was bragging about doing is a criminal offence.

What Clinton did was (extramarital sex), may be unethical, but it was not in any way illegal.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Juanita Broaddrick wasn't a "fling"....unless, of course the progressive definition of fling is "rape":


googled it.. seems legit (ie. she seems to be in the youtube vid).


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Juanita Broaddrick wasn't a "fling"....unless, of course the progressive definition of fling is "rape":


She made allegations of an incident occurring 12 years prior in a hotel room in a city while attending a convention.

When it was revealed that Bill Clinton was in a different city on those days, she admitted to the court the allegations weren't true.

She has since recanted her recantation. Her story keeps changing and her credibility is shaky at best.


----------



## mrPPincer

^oooh.. shoot, I should have known :stupid:


----------



## sags

Captain Clinton is telling her crew....

Still the guns and stow 'em, signal the men, set the flags and make good to clear port and head for the debate.


----------



## wraphter

mrPPincer said:


> It beats me how you guys keep calling mr Clinton a sexual predator.
> 
> He screwed around and got caught but it was consensual.


Paula Jones won a sexual harassment settlement against Bill Clinton for $850,000.


----------



## mrPPincer

I don't think won is the correct term unless you consider a settlement payday equivalent to winning the lottery.

I don't know anything about the Paula Jones thing either & I don't want to google it after googling the last one.

People come out of the woodwork looking for a payday obviously.


----------



## bass player

wraphter said:


> Paula Jones won a sexual harassment settlement against Bill Clinton for $850,000.


Hillary supporters call that "consensual", lol.


----------



## new dog

At this point really we should be getting down to the issues. On the personal front both candidates are very bad in there own ways so really it is equal it is just that the media only focuses on Trump issues.

What really scares me and gets little coverage towards the candidates is the Syria issue. All I hear is get rid of Assad and Russia is bad and we should go into Syria to pretend to attack ISIS and help the rebels like they are any good. War with Russia over Syria which we will most likely make things even worse is suicide and yet no one talks about it. Middle east policy is horrendous and could lead to nuclear war especially under Clinton if she continues the policies since 2001.


----------



## mordko

mrPPincer said:


> For clarity.
> 
> What Trump was bragging about doing is a criminal offence.
> 
> What Clinton did was (extramarital sex), may be unethical, but it was not in any way illegal.


Since when is lying under oath "legal"?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I'm beginning to wonder just how low you have to sink to be President these days.


----------



## mrPPincer

I agree mordko, but letting Monica do what she did under the desk wasn't, which was my point.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Since when is lying under oath "legal"?


Bill lied under oath and was impeached. 

Hillary lied to the FBI, but close friend James Comey chose to bypass all standard procedure and protocol and questioned her without having her appear under oath...mighty convenient, one has to think


----------



## mrPPincer

He lied about not having sex with that woman, while under oath.. that was the more serious offence to the american people, not the sex itself (although nobody cared either way, it was just a big news splash, much ado about diddly squat imho).


----------



## new dog

See what we discuss here, there is no substance to it. America is facing huge problems in the future like race relations, police state, overwhelming debt, entitlements and war and yet here we are. I am beginning to think the problems down south are so bad that they are using Trump to completely distract voters from what really matters as they always do.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> He lied about not having sex with that woman, while under oath.. that was the more serious offence to the american people, not the sex itself (although nobody cared either way, it was just a big news splash, much ado about diddly squat imho).


Yes, Bill Clinton lied under oath. That's what I said. He was then impeached, and also disbarred as a lawyer.

To prevent the same thing from happening, that's exactly why close friend James Comey did not put Hillary under oath...so she could get away with lying. Had she been put under oath, like EVERYONE ELSE who testifies, then she could have been deemed ineligible for office.

The fix was in right from the start.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> See what we discuss here, there is no substance to it. America is facing huge problems in the future like race relations, police state, overwhelming debt, entitlements and war and yet here we are. I am beginning to think the problems down south are so bad that they are using Trump to completely distract voters from what really matters as they always do.


Hillary was a big part of that failure...she will just be an Obama 3rd term, except more corrupt. Trump is the distraction they are using to prevent some people from realizing the total failure of the last 8 years came under Democrat rule.


----------



## wraphter

Bill Clinton and the Energizer




> An old flame of Bill Clinton‘s has popped up again, causing yet another distraction for Hillary Clinton‘s campaign for the presidency.
> 
> Years ago, Clinton doled out a hefty donation to a company owned by the beautiful divorcée identified as his alleged mistress, Julie Tauber McMahon — and we’ve got the full scoop.
> 
> The onetime U.S. president gave his rumored sidepiece’s firm, Energy Pioneer Solutions, a $2 million grant through his non-profit foundation, the Clinton Global Initiative.
> 
> ..............
> 
> McMahon is Clinton’s on-again, off-again girlfriend and is known as “Energizer” to Secret Service agents who protect the former President, according to former Wall Street Journal reporter Ronald Kessler‘s tell-all book, The First Family Detail: Secret Service Agents Reveal Hidden Lives of the Presidents.
> 
> 
> ...............
> 
> As Radar extensively reported, Clinton, now 69, has been sneaking trysts with the wealthy divorcée for years.
> 
> 
> ...............
> 
> It became a running joke in the family.” The same source passed a polygraph test and said, “If Clinton traveled to London, we’d learn Julie was also visiting London. When Clinton went to France, we’d discover Julie was also in France.”
> 
> The two allegedly even “slept in Hillary’s bed.” The romance eventually calmed down, but apparently picked back up after daughter Chelsea was married in 2010.
> 
> ..................


Some marriage the Clinton's have.

Bill Clinton and the Lolita Express




> Former President Bill Clinton was a much more frequent flyer on a registered sex offender’s infamous jet than previously reported, with flight logs showing the former president taking at least 26 trips aboard the “Lolita Express” -- even apparently ditching his Secret Service detail for at least five of the flights, according to records obtained by FoxNews.com.
> 
> ..........
> 
> Clinton’s presence aboard Jeffrey Epstein’s Boeing 727 on 11 occasions has been reported, but flight logs show the number is more than double that, and trips between 2001 and 2003 included extended junkets around the world with Epstein and fellow passengers identified on manifests by their initials or first names, including “Tatiana.” The tricked-out jet earned its Nabakov-inspired nickname because it was reportedly outfitted with a bed where passengers had group sex with young girls.
> 
> “Bill Clinton … associated with a man like Jeffrey Epstein, who everyone in New York, certainly within his inner circles, knew was a pedophile,” said Conchita Sarnoff, of the Washington, D.C. based non-profit Alliance to Rescue Victims of Trafficking, and author of a book on the Epstein case called "TrafficKing." “Why would a former president associate with a man like that?”



Then there was Ron Burkle and Air F--k One




> Clinton also spent years traveling and partying with Ron Burkle, a billionaire bachelor with a penchant for very young girls. Clinton spent so much time on Burkle’s private plane that it came to be known in Burkle’s circle as “Air F—k One.”



Very nice.

And Hillary of course was busy with her career.
What a couple.
It was and is a completely phony marriage.
Hillary was only in it for her advancement and the Clinton name.


----------



## mrPPincer

An experienced statesman like Hillary is the only option now..
It's like when they gave us in ontario the choice of Wynne or Hudak, but much worse imho.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> An experienced statesman like Hillary is the only option now..
> It's like when they gave us in ontario the choice of Wynne or Hudak, but much worse imho.


Wynne is inept, but nowhere near as corrupt....Hillary is both.


----------



## olivaw

Nobody is going to hold Bill Clinton's extramarital affair(s) against his wife. In fact, her conduct over them was entirely natural. She separated herself from her husband for a while but forgave him. Their closest friends, including some Republicans, say that she loves Bill. 

BIll Clinton's approval rating is very high. Apparently Americans have forgiven him for his past infidelities.

The allegation of rape is not going to help Trump. The woman making the allegations is not credible. It's not a relevant campaign issue.

The claim that Hillary Clinton was mean to the other woman is based upon her unkind words about Monica Lewinski. Few women say nice things about the "other woman".

There is a lawsuit that alleges that Trump raped a 13 year old girl. It has not been proven.

Trump's infidelities are well known. 

The argument that Bill Clinton is as bad as Trump doesn't Impress my wife. She says that Bill is sleazy for not remaining faithful but it was just sex. She says that Trump is more about anger. His desire to conquer married women is based on a need to dehumanize them and turn them into possessions and conquests. 

Trump is not going to succeed in his attempt to deflect attention to Bill's past because they are not equivalent. Bill Clinton likes women too much. Trump doesn't seem to like them at all.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Mike Pence Donald Trump's pick for VP is a Creationist who does not believe in Evolution. This bothers me more than Trump's potty mouth. Listen to this speech if you don't believe me.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urjPLxAQ3qc





thankx for showing us this video. Far from bothering or surprising me, this video locks another piece of the puzzle into place.

pence's southern preacher style revivalist oratory shows how trump-n-pence belong squarely to the american grass-roots demagogue tradition.

the best example of this was Huey Long, an iron-fisted 20th century governor of louisiana. Then there was James Curley, four times elected mayor of boston. Adoring bostonians kept mayor Curley in office even while he served time in prison.

_" Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 - September 10, 1935), nicknamed "Kingfish," was a powerful American politician in the 1920s and 1930s, who built a ruthless Democratic machine in Louisiana as governor (1928–32) and U.S. Senator (1932-35). His base was among angry poor whites, both Protestant and Catholic (called "********" by the middle class enemies of Long.)

" A leftist populist who fought the rich, and promised "Every Man a King," he was preparing to run for president—either in 1940 when Franklin Delano Roosevelt was expected to retire, or perhaps to challenge FDR's reelection in 1936 in alliance with radio's influential Catholic priest Charles Coughlin. But Long was assassinated in 1935 by the son of a political enemy. Although called a "Fascist", Long shunned ideology of all sorts, and his dictatorship by patronage, far from being alien, was the apogee of what many American machine politicians have attempted. Pernicious and impracticable as was his leftist Share-Our-Wealth plan, its objective of plenty for all was as intrinsically American as was the title "Kingfish." Was he dictator, demagogue, messiah or populist—a friend of American values or an enemy?"_ 


http://www.conservapedia.com/Huey_Long



.


----------



## bass player

It is very entertaining watching people tie themselves into knots explaining away Bill's awful behavior while at the same time condemning Trump for nothing more than locker room talk.

Hillary's #1 aide also exercised poor judgement by marrying a guy who likes to expose himself to underage girls.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> The claim that Hillary Clinton was mean to the other woman is based upon her unkind words about Monica Lewinski. Few women say nice things about the "other woman".


Wrong again.

She publicly attacked several women, not just Monica. Remember...this is the woman who claimed that all victims of sexual assault deserve to be believed. She later changed that to "deserve to be heard". So, she lied on that issue, too.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> It is very entertaining watching people tie themselves into knots explaining away Bill's awful behavior while at the same time condemning Trump for nothing more than locker room talk.
> 
> Hillary's #1 aide also exercised poor judgement by marrying a guy who likes to expose himself to underage girls.


It is very entertaining watching people tie themselves into knots explaining away Trump's awful behaviour while at the same time condemning Hillary for nothing more than being married to an unfaithful man.


----------



## indexxx

olivaw said:


> She says that Trump is more about anger. His desire to conquer married women is based on a need to dehumanize them and turn them into possessions and conquests.
> 
> Trump is not going to succeed in his attempt to deflect attention to Bill's past because they are not equivalent. Bill Clinton likes women too much. Trump doesn't seem to like them at all.


Exactly why I feel it is telling that he took over the Miss Universe thing- it's sexist, degrading, and reeks of 'old-boy' mindset.


----------



## Eder

bass player said:


> It is very entertaining watching people tie themselves into knots explaining away Bill's awful behavior while at the same time condemning Trump for nothing more than locker room talk.
> 
> Hillary's #1 aide also exercised poor judgement by marrying a guy who likes to expose himself to underage girls.


Hillary was cheating on Bill with Wiener's wife . She may be guilty of sexual abuse of the hired help as well.


----------



## bass player

Should someone who lied outright to the FBI be allowed to run for office?
Should someone who illegally destroyed government property (emails) AFTER being told to turn them over be allowed to run for office?
Should someone who refused to follow basic security measures required by ALL employees (private server) be allowed to run for office?


----------



## humble_pie

Eder said:


> Hillary was cheating on Bill with Wiener's wife . She may be guilty of sexual abuse of the hired help as well.



neither of them seem to go for animals though


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Juanita Broaddrick wasn't a "fling"....unless, of course the progressive definition of fling is "rape":




juanita broaddrick filed an affidavit saying she wasn't raped by bill clinton. Then she recanted. Then she recanted the recant. Each time with tears, hand-wrings, half-sentences whispered to reporters that she cannot, cannot, cannot talk about the issue.

there's an avatar tweeting on Twitter these days as juanita broaddrick. Totally different language signature. I rather suspect this twitter personnage is a fake. She's a loud coarse neo-crypto who rabbits on about zerohedge & crooked hillary. She sounds like a former madam.

whereas the original broaddrick decades ago was a weeping dithery dolt who couldn't finish a sentence or get her a$$idavits straight.


.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Anybody plan on watching the second debate tonight?


----------



## olivaw

CNN is reporting that Trump is currently live with women who have made unsubstantiated allegations against Bill Clinton. 

Republicans investigated all allegations when they tried to impeach Bill Clinton in the 1990s. He was acquitted.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Anybody plan on watching the second debate tonight?


Yes!!! My wife doesn't usually enjoy debates but she plans to watch this one after the tapes.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Anybody plan on watching the second debate tonight?



viewership should be bigger than kennedy/nixon


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw will you be staying in e-touch with your US friend, the one with good insights into the democratic party ...


----------



## humble_pie

i worry about bass player in the traffic tonight

is he going to be able to keep up with everybody on here

.


----------



## mrPPincer

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Anybody plan on watching the second debate tonight?


I will, but I won't be online to discuss it during.
My dad invited me over to watch it at his place.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> According to the left, this is a list of acceptable behavior for presidents and presidential candidates:
> 
> *Getting blowjobs under the Resolute desk in the Oval Office.
> *Beating, attempting to rape, and actually raping women



are we into beating now? who was beating up whom?

the only high society washington beating i've ever heard of was when canadian ambassador Alan Gottlieb's wife Sondra - a high powered washington uber-hostess - smacked her secretary for not getting a party detail quite right ...

.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> olivaw will you be staying in e-touch with your US friend, the one with good insights into the democratic party ...


Definitely. We are texting about Trump's disgusting publicity stunt.


----------



## new dog

Bass has made a pretty good case why Hillary is garbage and everyone under the sun has made the case about Trumps garbage. If America allows it, garbage will be what this election is all about and Hillary will get in and America will fall under the weight of the real issues.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Picture of Donald with no pants.

http://i.imgur.com/TaYqTuv.jpg


----------



## olivaw

Bass player put up a fight but he failed to make a good case.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Bass has made a pretty good case why Hillary is garbage and everyone under the sun has made the case about Trumps garbage. If America allows it, garbage will be what this election is all about and Hillary will get in and America will fall under the weight of the real issues.



there are plenty of signs that hillary clinton is flexible, hears what the people are saying. 

dogcom did you vote for stephen harper? now, that would have been more of the samesame.

ps bass has made a terrible case. Shrill, shriller & more shrill again. He's got a list of clinton sins upthread that looks like she deserves guantanamo bay. The only thing missing - according to bass - is animal abuse.

.


----------



## olivaw

On CNN the Trump surrogates are defending Trump's publicity stunt as him being the anti-rape candidate. The Clinton guy is saying to look at this as a Trump scorched earth tactic and referencing his finger on the nuclear button.


----------



## indexxx

"Jane, you ignorant sl**..."


----------



## indexxx

Trump's body language is scary.


----------



## olivaw

Trump whined about the moderators and started snorting.


----------



## olivaw

indexxx said:


> Trump's body language is scary.


Yeah, he's angry and he is acting creepy.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> there are plenty of signs that hillary clinton is flexible, hears what the people are saying.
> 
> dogcom did you vote for stephen harper? now, that would have been more of the samesame.
> 
> ps bass has made a terrible case. Shrill, shriller & more shrill again. He's got a list of clinton sins upthread that looks like she deserves guantanamo bay. The only thing missing - according to bass - is animal abuse.
> 
> .




That was a good long list I have to admit.

On Harper, I actually voted for Justin because I thought we have seen enough of the conservatives and Harper. I have no problems changing my vote if I think it is the right thing to do. I don't like Liberal refuge policy as I have stated but I thought the conservatives didn't deserve another term.


----------



## TomB19

new dog said:


> I don't like Liberal refuge policy as I have stated but I thought the conservatives didn't deserve another term.


Agreed.


----------



## sags

In answering every question, Trump lets loose a scatter gun barrage of one liners on a myriad of unrelated topics.

It is the "bury them with BS" debating approach.

Therefore, my favorite quote of the debate comes from the moderators...........

_Secretary Clinton.......you have two minutes to respond._


----------



## sags

One of the interesting comments Trump made all night concerned his VP Mike Pence.

He said he doesn't agree with Pence on US involvement in Syria. Trump believes Russia, Iran, and Syria are solving the problem.

Donald Trump questioning Mike Pence's expertise on foreign and military affairs.......interesting.


----------



## olivaw

Trump fans will be happy with his performance because he said he would jail his opponent. Hillary fans will be happy with her performance unless they wanted her to drop kick Trump into the audience.


----------



## indexxx

Trump held himself pretty well verbally in some ways but his presence and body language (which are the real truth) just kills it. He did better than the last debate IMO but it's not going to change many people's minds. I got the sense that he was being extremely conscious of not flying off the handle- but again his body language betrays it. This is an unhinged man and unfit to lead a government.


----------



## sags

Trump spent 90 minutes without revealing much in the form of policy, while Clinton spent 90 minutes trying to sort through the barrage of obfuscation. 

In all.......the debate format was poor and the moderators, most notably Anderson Cooper were weak. 

Questions came from all different topics and it had an unconnected feel to it. 

I much preferred the VP sit down style of debate, and perhaps others did as well as that debate was rated higher by people.


----------



## olivaw

On substance, Trump was awful. He offered a lot of criticism but not a single constructive solution. Expectations were low so he may not have needed to bring solutions to satisfy his angry base. 

Clinton was warmer but a little wonkish.

The debate was tense. My wife left the room because she found it to be quite unpleasant to watch. I wonder if people turned it off.


----------



## sags

A lot tweeters thought Trump was trying the "power stalk" by edging close to Clinton early in the debate.

It wasn't going over well on Twitter, and I wonder if he received a signal from the audience to back off.

Some photos were taken of audience members, who didn't look happy with some of Trump's responses.

Have to see what the pundits have to say.


----------



## olivaw

CNN finally noticed that Trump said he would jail his opponent. I wonder if that will be the headline - it would be a massive departure from democratic norms.


----------



## mordko

At one point early on Hillary said that Trump is not fit to be a president. When Trump took the mike he followed with "I agree with everything she has just said".

It was exactly like the debate on South Park.


----------



## olivaw

CNN poll, debate winner:
Clinton 57% 
Trump 34%

The audience skews slightly democratic.


----------



## new dog

From what I saw trump destroyed Hillary as all she did was talk with nothing backing it. Trump of course is unproven so he does have an advantage there as every competitor has that is challenging.

On Syria and the middle east it was all crap and any forum buddy with a brain can see that. Sure Russia is blowing stuff up but that wouldn't be the case if Obama left Syria alone instead of the conquest to take over the entire middle east. On ISIS Trump is right Assad and Russia have taken up the cause because of the stupid US middle east policy of arming rebels who could be ISIS sympathizers for all we know.

On the inner cities and minorities again Hillary is all talk and it goes nowhere.


----------



## andrewf

^ Wow, a debate that featured talking? Did you expect Clinton to perform surgery or build social housing during the debate?

I'm shocked that the polling showed that big of a skew in perception on who won the debate.


----------



## sags

I don't know where CNN finds these "undecided" voters. 

They must be the kind of people who have a tough time choosing between chocolate or vanilla ice cream.

I don't think it would be possible to have more polar opposite nominees to vote for.


----------



## sags

The alt right movement has taken over the Republican Party, and their man is Trump. That wouldn't change if he stripped naked and did a hula dance on the stage.

Clinton supporters have been waiting for years for her to ascend to the Presidency. Reluctant voters, including staunch Republicans have added to her base.

In the time remaining, it is all about consolidating their votes and getting the votes out to the polling booths.

In the final hours, Clinton has a major advantage. She has an army of volunteers to man phone lines and drive people to the polls and home.

Clinton leads by 4% nationally which is a significant lead. Trump has a very difficult path to the required electoral votes.

In essence, it is all but over at this point and Hillary Clinton is going to win. The "bombshells" against her have been launched and she still leads. Bombshells against Trump are likely to continue, but I don't think it matters much at this point.

Trump's campaign manager was surprised the debate poll numbers heavily favored Clinton.

The best she could muster was......."they must have been watching a different debate than I was".

Clinton should be able to coast to victory from here.


----------



## new dog

Just remember Clinton is carrying on for Obama so she has a record that goes back where as Trump has no record. She has to deal with this baggage and Trump doesn't which does give him an advantage as I said. Overall under Obama nothing has been done to the inner cities and the middle east has been a disaster and there is no way you can refute that.


----------



## sags

I wouldn't refute it, but how does Obama wear the mantle of blame for it all ?

It wasn't Obama who sent the US troops into the Middle East. Americans overwhelmingly wanted their troops brought home. They don't want to be stuck in a quagmire as an occupying force, especially when the host countries don't want them there.

Obama and the Democrats have been trying for decades to raise funding for inner city schools, raise the minimum wage, and provide more opportunities for inner city youth. They were blocked at every turn by Republicans who favor charter schools, abolishing the minimum wage, and trickle down economics.

Remember the Republicans pledging to block any Obama initiatives ? Remember how they refused to pass budget bills ?

Trump questioned why Clinton didn't get something done on a topic, and she replied because there was a Republican President with a veto.

Obama has done well considering he receiving nothing but adversity from the Republicans. Americans will miss Obama.


----------



## olivaw

Trump has a record of being an obnoxious bully but no record of actually accomplishing anything for the public good. He can't even point to his business since he loses money, stiffs his suppliers and treats people like garbage. 

Obama's positives are higher than Clinton or Trump. He'd handily win re-election if he could run for a third term. Clinton is wise to run on a platform of continuing his work.

Trump supporters declared victory ten minutes before the debate started, but Trump may have made some mistakes. He appealed to the alt-right but the election is won by appealing to moderates. I can't imagine any moderate watching that performance and saying -" Whadd'ya think Hun, let's vote for the snorting dude who wanders around the stage like a crazy homeless man".


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Trump questioned why Clinton didn't get something done on a topic, and she replied because there was a Republican President with a veto."

Was she talking about Obama because he has been President for the past 8 years.

Obama kept all Bush's policies and most of his key people. Didn't do any of the things he promised like free the prisoners from Guantonamo Bay. But somehow the policies everyone hated Bush's guts for are ok when Obama does them. Does this mean Clinton will continue the same course?


----------



## sags

In the debate aftermath,

Trump's campaign manager Kellyanne Conway and GOP leader Reinse Priebus cancelled their Sunday news show appearances. 

Other high profile Trump surrogates have suddenly become "unavailable", but loyal Rudy Guiliani plods on and will take all their places.

Conway gave several interviews where she hinted she may be leaving the campaign, as news gathers of more bombshells to come out.

Geraldo Rivera claims he has embarrassing tapes of Donald Trump to release.

It is starting to appear that the Republican Party is going to abandon Trump to make it impossible for him to win.

The strategy is thought to be to sever all ties with Trump to try to save Senate and Congressional seats.

If the "Trump factor" causes a rout in the Senate and Congress, the Republicans would have no influence in government at all.


----------



## sags

Yikes...........Trump's manager Kellyanne Conway has gone full bore after some Republicans who disavowed Trump.

I don't know how this revelation "helps" the Republican Party.

They are on the verge of self destruction.

_Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway said some of the members of Congress who’ve rejected Donald Trump are guilty of inappropriate sexual conduct._

_“I would talk to some of the members of Congress out there. I remember when I was younger and prettier, them rubbing up against girls sticking their tongues down women's throats. It was true,” Conway told Chris Matthews during a post-debate interview on MSNBC._

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...way-congressmen-lewd-behavior-229503?lo=ap_a3


----------



## sags

I have followed politics, especially US politics since I was a kid in the 1960s.

I have never seen anything remotely like this election. It it totally bizarre and perhaps a sign of the times.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> If the "Trump factor" causes a rout in the Senate and Congress, the Republicans would have no influence in government at all.


Sags, stop it! I'm drooling on my keyboard!


----------



## olivaw

The CNN/ORC survey gave Clinton a 57-34 advantage 

YouGov's survey was closer:
Clinton won 47%
Trump won 42%


----------



## olivaw

Some humorous headlines about the meanest debate ever:

Donald Trump's Implosion (Atlantic)
A Red-Bull Display of Madness (Guardian)
Donald Trump Jail Threat Raises Concerns (Reuters)
Trump resurrects rape allegations against Bill Clinton in bid to tarnish Hillary (CBC)
Trump at Second Debate Was a Hot, Creepy Mess (Rolling Stone)
Trump the bully menaces Clinton with imposing presence and brash insults (Guardian)
US election: Trump launches ferocious attack on Clintons (BBC)
Donald Trump's Meltdown Is Nearly Complete (New Republic)
Presidential debate: Donald Trump keeps sniffling during second debate with Clinton (Global News)
Presidential town hall debate: Clinton, Trump confront lewd 'elephant in the room' (CBC)
Trump assails Bill Clinton, vows to jail Hillary Clinton if he wins Whitehouse (Reuters) 
Mexican peso climbs, stocks edge up as Trump's chances seen fading (Reuters)

ETA: The funniest headline: The Internet Wants to Know Why the Muslim Woman at the Debate Is Undecided (Fortune)


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

So, the owners of all 5 media companies are against Trump? What else is new?


----------



## olivaw

Trump made a mockery of the democratic process with his conduct. I thought the first debate would go down in history as one of the worst debate performances of all time but this one may be remembered as the worst debate performance of all time. Trump lied, bullied, stomped, snorted and threatened for 90 minutes. He engaged in an undignified publicity stunt beforehand. He tried to physically intimidate his opponent. He praised Putin and threw his own running mate under the bus. 

Then he threatened to throw his opponent in jail. 

It was a scorched earth tactic. In the end, he presented himself as an angry man who was beneath the dignity of the proceedings. He's done. Time to talk about 2020.


----------



## indexxx

I think he believes that any media event is supposed to be conducted like a reality show- it's what he knows.


----------



## carverman

indexxx said:


> I think he believes that any media event is supposed to be conducted like a reality show- it's what he knows.


Too many reality shows for Trump. He's lost touch with the American people and what it takes to be president of probably the most powerful country in the free world. He's become a laughing stock for most media commentators with their comments on these debates
which are basically personal attacks, rather than more important issues at hand.

If he can't control his thoughts in a more diplomatic manner, it would become a scary scenario for the world if he ever became president and commander-in-chief of the US forces around the world.
Doesn't take much to set him off, especially if his reputation (such as it is) is being attacked. 

The only two words missing in this "election year reality show' is.... "Donald...*You're* Fired!"

Ok, Hilllary is not the lily white pure American political either, with these deleted emails, which may have been a coverup for something a lot larger at the time than Bengazi, but at least she is not directly shooting off her mouth threatening,to request a attorney general special prosecutor investigation ..should she win.



> Donald Trump on Sunday night issued a remarkable threat against Hillary Clinton, telling the Democratic presidential nominee he would seek to imprison her if he was elected next month.





> "If I win, I am going to instruct my attorney general to get a special prosecutor to look into your (missing email) situation," Trump said, "because there has never been so many lies, so much deception."


A sad day for America coming up in the next 30 days, I'm afraid. 

Both the winner and loser will have a tarnished reputation as a blowhard lecher and dishonest politician.

Neither one can probably be trusted to act in the best interests of America should a crisis prevail. 

If Hillary wins, all this will overshadow the fact that she would become the first woman president in US history, just like Obama is the first black president. 

If Trump wins by some remote chance now, 'he will go down as the most bigoted lecher misogynistic president in US history.

Even the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair ( mostly conducted under the table:disgust: ) will pale by comparison, once Trump gets the power to match his ego.


----------



## bass player

carverman said:


> Ok, Hilllary is not the lily white pure American political either, with these deleted emails, which may have been a coverup for something a lot larger at the time than Bengazi, but at least she is not directly shooting off her mouth threatening,to request a attorney general special prosecutor investigation ..should she win.


Of course she deleted emails because she had something to hide. Only a fool would suggest otherwise. And, of course she isn't promising a special investigation...Trump did nothing wrong that requires an investigation. But, Hillary did, and that's why an investigation is needed.



carverman said:


> If Hillary wins, all this will overshadow the fact that she would become the first woman president in US history, just like Obama is the first black president.


It's not about keeping score with gender and race. Obama has been a dismal failure, and that would have been a fact regardless of his skin colour. Gender and skin colour are not "qualifications", they are simply how progressives keep score. It's time for a good president, not time for a president with female body parts.


----------



## new dog

I don't see anything that suggests she won all she did was talk a pile of BS. I didn't hear any policy direction from her that she would help or fix anything. The only thing she did mention is she will continue the disastrous policy in the Middle East and be the best candidate for war against Russia, which eliminates all of us over a backward country in Syria. He apologized for his locker talk in 2005 and she couldn't explain why she deleted the e-mails.

The last debate Hillary won for sure, this debate showed her full of hot air and Donald won.


----------



## new dog

I also keep hearing about people wanting to release embarrassing Trump tapes. I will bet if you secretly recorded Hillary or anyone else privately she would say some of the worst crap you would ever hear. Everyone has bad days and says garbage that they don't mean in private and would be embarrassed if it came out. Publicly he is stupid and does have the trash talk award there for sure.


----------



## new dog

Also here looks like some coaching by CNN to the focus group of undecided voters. It sounds like coaching was being done as they cut to the group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqCIub3SmCI


----------



## bass player

Trump won the debate. The moderator bias was clearly evident early on but Trump handled them well and scored points by pointing out that they kept letting Hillary run over her time but would stop him immediately.

Hillary was soundly trounced when she claimed that having a public and a private position on issues was something she got from the movie "Lincoln", and when Trump accurately pointed out that "Abe was honest, not like you" it earned a round of applause. Trump also pointed out many of Hillary's failures and she was unable to give an adequate response.


----------



## olivaw

Trump lost. Expect it to become clear in the polls after pollsters have had the opportunity to conduct their post debate voter intention polls. Debates are not scored by voters on bullying and bluster. They are scored on character and content. If this were a Canadian debate, we would be universally outraged if a politician so disrespected our political process that he behaved like Trump. Americans are no different. They want a leader that they can be proud of. Very few people would be proud of a Donald Trump.


----------



## bass player

Trump correctly pointed out that his locker room talk was just that, while Bill Clinton had engaged in some disgusting behavior, and that actions are more important than words. Not only did their attack fail, he turned it back against them and made Hillary look bad.


----------



## carverman

olivaw said:


> Trump lost. They are scored on character and content. If this were a Canadian debate, we would be universally outraged if a politician so disrespected our political process that he behaved like Trump. Americans are no different. They want a leader that they can be proud of. Very few people would be proud of a Donald Trump.


Trump may have lost in the eyes of the American public voter, but he may not be a dead horse in the current presidential race yet. In the US, there is two levels of voting , the popular vote by the general public, and the elite (electoral college) "political mechanism" which was established (at least I presume) to prevent another "Hitler" from getting into power by popular vote. 
The elite in power do not trust their ordinary citizens when making decisions that could consequently affect them and their livelihood. 




> The Electoral College consists of 538 electors. *A majority of 270 electoral votes is required to elect the President*. Your state's entitled allotment of electors equals the number of members in its Congressional delegation: one for each member in the House of Representatives plus two for your Senators.





> Why do we have the Electoral College?
> 
> T*he founding fathers established the Electoral College in the Constitution as a compromise between election of the President by a vote in Congress and election of the President by a popular vote of qualified citizens.* However, the term “electoral college” does not appear in the Constitution. Article II of the Constitution and the 12th Amendment refer to “electors,” but not to the “electoral college.”





> Who actually votes for the president?
> Although ballots list the names of the presidential and vice presidential candidates (who run on a ticket), voters actually choose electors when they vote for President and Vice President. T*hese presidential electors in turn cast electoral votes for those two offices.*


----------



## olivaw

The electoral college votes according to the popular vote in their states. It is possible for a candidate to win the popular vote and lose the election - it happened to Al Gore in 2000. 

This year, Clinton has the electoral college math working to her advantage because more states lean Clinton than Trump. There are a few swing states but Clinton is leading in most of those. Trump would need to turn Pennsylvania, Florida and a few other swing states to win but his debate performance is unlikely to move any moderate voters into his column. Indeed, I suspect that Clinton may have won over a few moderates. 

It's not over till the last vote,is counted but Clinton is favoured to win handily. If the world is good and right, Trump will go down to a humiliating defeat on Nov 8th.


----------



## SMK

Frontline's Clinton, Trump biographies-documentary "The Choice 2016" was featured again last night before the debate, and after it, all commentators said Trump had won the debate. The man looked and sounded like the bully and "killer" that he's always been.

The documentary is worth watching.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Smoking gun of media bias. This clip shows a CNN announcer prompting a 'voter' after the debate, and the 'voter' delivering her lines the best she can. It has been obvious for a long time that all mainstream media outlets are shilling for Hillary, here is proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chA4TzmycWo


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The debate in a nut shell by Tim Urban


The Second Presidential Debate
October 10, 2016 By Tim Urban

In case you missed it, I took the time to transcribe the entire second presidential debate. Here’s what happened:

Martha Raddatz: Hi I’m Martha.

Anderson Cooper: And I’m Anderson. And we’ll be your moderators tonight.

Martha: We’d like to remind all audience members that they’re props more than anything and should stay silent through the debate. The format of the debate will be a series of questions from members of the audience. We’ll start with a woman named Patrice Brock.

Audience Question: Thank you and good evening. The last presidential debate could have been rated as MA—mature audiences—per TV parental guidelines. Knowing that educators assign viewing the presidential debates as students’ homework, do you feel that you are modeling appropriate and positive behavior for today’s youth?

Clinton: I want to do all kinds of things. I want to do good things. There’s nothing we can’t do together, you and me Patrice. I want to work with people of all ethnicities. I want to heal the country. Make it a better place. For you and for me and the entire human race. And our children. And grandchildren.

Trump: This country’s going to ****. Healthcare costs are going up. We made Iran great again. We get killed on trade—an $800 billion deficit last year. We’re gonna make great trade deals. We’re gonna bring back law and order. Did you hear about those policemen that were shot today? We need justice. I want to fix the blacks in the cities. I want to fix the Latinos, Hispanics, etc. I want to make them great again. Make America great again.

Anderson Cooper: Neither of you remotely answered the question, whatsoever. You literally both ignored Patrice. Anyway, I also don’t care about Patrice. Let’s talk about the tapes. Donald, you talked about kissing women without consent. Grabbing them by the *****. That’s really very much definitely sexual assault. You bragged about sexually assaulting women. This is a real thing that happened. It is a thing that’s real.

Trump: Wrong. I don’t think you understand what sexual assault is. Grabbing women by the ***** is locker room talk. Assaulting women is grabbing them by the *****. I’m sorry I grabbed women by the *****. I never did that. And how can you say that’s worse than ISIS? ISIS is beheading thousands of people. How can you compare me to ISIS? They drown people in steel cages. I’ve never done that once. How dare you Anderson. We’ll see tomorrow what the American people have to say about you saying that ISIS isn’t a big deal. What do you think our enemies are saying when they see what’s going on here. Yes, it was locker room talk. Yes, I hate it. I have advanced strategies for ISIS. I will defeat ISIS.

Anderson: Okay, but do you assault women?

Trump: Nobody has more respect for women than I do. Nobody. Not Mister Rogers. Not Susan B. Anthony. No one. Moving on a married woman is a sign of respect, something Mister Rogers and Susan B. Anthony never did. I’m what every parent hopes their daughter marries. All women respect me.

Anderson: But like literally—do you assault women?

Trump: Only with my respect. We’re gonna build a wall. We’re gonna have borders. People are pouring into our country from the Middle East to grab American women by the *****. We’re gonna make America safe again. We’re gonna make America great again. We’re gonna make America safe again. We’re gonna make America wealthy again. China.

Anderson: Secretary Clinton, would you like to respond?

Clinton: Reagan. Bush. Eisenhower. Did they grab women by the arm? Yes. By the hand? Probably. Around the shoulder? Sure. But by the *****? I don’t think so. Donald Trump is a bad man. He’s an everything-ist. He’s Matt Damon in School Ties. He’s the uncle in The Long Walk Home. He’s the mean slave owner in 12 Years a Slave. He’s the main German guy in Die Hard. He’s the woman in The Grudge. He’s Bluto. He’s Jafar. He’s the Joker. He’s a white walker. He’s a death eater. He’s a zombie. He’s a ghost. I, on the other hand, want to form one of those huge circles of different colored people that stretches all the way around the Earth where everyone’s holding hands. Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

Trump: 30 years. 30 years this lady’s running the country and never once have I, nor has anyone else, been part of a circle of different colored people that stretches all the way around the Earth where everyone’s holding hands. 30 years of this fucking lady and never once did she paint anything with paint, let alone the colors of the wind.

Martha: Okay but back to your locker room assault. You’ve said that this campaign has changed you—that though being a clear predator in that video at the age of 59, you’ve now become good. Is that really true?

Trump: Martha—I don’t know how much clearer I can make this. I told detailed assault stories that included specific dates, names, and body parts. That’s just classic locker room talk. Every guy talks to other guys about detailed stories of his previous assaults that include specific dates, names, and body parts. You don’t know this because you’re not there—but whenever guys are alone, they talk about their previous assaults. That doesn’t mean they assaulted anyone, obviously. Unless they’re Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton is a bad fucking dude. Bill Clinton told me about when he held a Taco Bell employee down by the neck in the restaurant’s utilities closet and had intercourse with her. Bill Clinton told me about having a foursome with Chelsea’s three best friends while Chelsea was sleeping upstairs. Hillary missed it because she was busy laughing at a 12-year-old rape victim who by coincidence is sitting right over there.

Martha: Nicely done. Hillary?

Clinton: I’ll let Michelle Obama do the talking here. She said, “When someone talks about that time when your husband held a Taco Bell employee down by the neck in the restaurant’s utilities closet and had intercourse with her, you go high.” It works for Michelle, and it works for me. Also, you insulted a Muslim war hero’s parents and said a Latino judge was inherently biased and mocked a disabled reporter and said Obama was foreign.

Trump: The first three, sure. But you’re the one who said Obama was foreign. Also, Michelle Obama has openly said you’re the worst ever. Also, you cheated to beat Bernie Sanders. Also, you deleted 33,000 emails you sneaky ****. And when I’m Führer, I’m hiring a special prosecutor to come after you.

Clinton: He’s lying about everything, it’s all on my website, and let’s just be happy that this loose cannon isn’t in charge of the law in this country.

Trump: Because you’d be in jail.

Audience: Oh dayome!

Anderson: We’d like to remind the audience to stop being a piece of ****.

Martha: But really, Hillary—what’s up with the emails you sneaky ****.

Clinton: It was a mistake. I wrote 33,000 emails about Chelsea’s wedding and a yoga class, and I shouldn’t have deleted them. Now let’s get to the questions from the audience.

Trump: Of course—anything to divert from this question, you crooked shrew.

Clinton: Anything to divert from your campaign, you incompressible jizztrumpet.

Anderson: That’s enough. Now let’s resume this town hall farce with our second audience question.

Trump: Typical.

Anderson: Huh?

Trump: You never ask Hillary about her emails. You never spend time with me. You don’t care about me. This is one on three.

Anderson: No it’s not. Just a little. Next question.

Audience Question: Obamacare made things more expensive, not less. How will you bring healthcare costs down?

Trump: Well—

Anderson: No Hillary’s supposed to go first here.

Clinton: No it’s fine I’d rather go second.

Trump: No it’s fine you go first.

Clinton: No you.

Trump: No you.

Clinton: No you.

Trump: No you.

Clinton: No you.

Trump: No you.

Clinton: Obamacare is good.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump: Obamacare is a disaster.

Anderson: Hillary, your husband Bill also said Obamacare is a disaster.

Clinton: No he didn’t.

Trump: Bernie Sanders says Hillary has bad judgment.

Anderson: Let’s move on. Audience question.

Audience Question: I’m a Muslim. How can you help me not be hatecrimed?

Trump: Being hatecrimed is a shame. But we have a problem. Which is that you’re not telling us when the other Muslims are gonna kill us. In San Bernardino, there were Muslims that killed us and you didn’t tell us about them. If you had told us about them, we could have stopped it. I don’t think you ever told us about Orlando either, or 9/11 for that matter. I know that because if you had told us about 9/11, I’m pretty sure you’d be famous, and famous people don’t go to town hall meetings.

Clinton: You are Muslim. I am Muslim. Captain Khan, who died serving this country and who Donald hates, was Muslim.

Martha: Hey Donald, remember your Muslim ban? Let’s discuss.

Trump: I love Captain Khan. I have his name tattooed on my lower back. An American hero. Who Hillary killed by starting the Iraq War, another thing I hate.

Martha: Fuckin—dude—no. Answer the question.

Trump: Who made you so mean? Was it your parents? And who made you so simultaneously nice to Hillary? Also your parents?

Martha: Does the Muslim ban still hold?

Trump: Hillary wants to merge the US with Syria into one nation. She wants to increase the number of refugees from 10,000 to 65,000.

Martha: What the **** Hillary?

Clinton: That picture of the dead four-year-old boy on the beach with the little sneakers.

Martha: Totes.

Clinton: Also, Donald literally wants to ban an entire major religion from entering the US. Can we just all reflect on that for a second? And also, he started the Iraq War, not me.

Trump: I was against the war in Iraq.

Clinton: No you weren’t.

Trump: Yes I was.

Clinton: No you weren’t.

Trump: Yes I was.

Clinton: No you weren’t.

Trump: Yes I was. Bernie Sanders says Hillary Clinton has bad judgment.

Martha: Okay new question. Hillary, you said in a secret speech that politicians need both a public and private position on certain issues. Is it okay for politicians to be two-faced?

Clinton: That was Abraham Lincoln, not me. More importantly, Trump is obsessed with Putin.

Trump: I’m not obsessed with Putin. I paid taxes. I took deductions. Hillary’s friends took deductions. Hillary is friends with rich people.

Anderson: The ****? Okay well now that we’re here:

Audience Question: How will you ensure that wealthy Americans pay their fair share of taxes?

Trump: Well the first thing I’d do is (by the way one of the first provisions is (by the way you know I give up a lot when I run cause I change the tax code (by the way you know she could have done this years ago but she didn’t because her rich friends don’t want her to (30 fucking years, folks—30 years with this lady and nothing changes—nothing ever will change)))) get rid of carried interest. I’m also lowering taxes on the wealthy, and by the way Hillary is raising your taxes, which is a disaster. There’s no growth in this country. This country’s going to ****. China’s killing us.

Clinton: Literally all lies from this douche again. He will cut taxes for the super rich and raise them for the middle class.

Trump: Yeah she’ll close corporate loopholes—as long as they’re ones her rich friends don’t use. Also, Bernie Sanders says she has bad judgment. 30 fucking years, folks, with this lady. 30—

Clinton: 30 years my dick, Donald. I’ve done 400 legislation things in 30 years.

Trump: Nah.

Martha: New question. Aleppo’s in the ****. Thoughts?

Clinton: We need to stand up to Russia and Assad and save Aleppo.

Trump: And save who in Aleppo, the rebels? They’re worse than Assad. We need to fight ISIS.

Martha: But Mr. Trump, your running mate agrees with Hillary. He even wants to use military force to stand up to Russia and Assad.

Trump: Well he’s dumb. We need to be fighting ISIS. I know more about ISIS than the generals.

Clinton: Fucking no you don’t.

Anderson: Audience question.

Audience Question: Do you believe you can be a devoted president to all the people in the US? 

Trump: I want to help all Americans. The black Americans. The Latino Americanos personas. The Indian chiefs. Our cities are a disaster. Our education is a disaster. Poverty is a disaster. Natural disasters are a disaster. She said basket of deplorables.

Clinton: I want to help all Americans—the deplorables and the non-deplorables. I talked to an Ethopian kid who was scared of Trump.

Anderson: But what’s up with the deplorables thing?

Clinton: I only meant that truthfully, not publicly.

Trump: She has tremendous hate in her heart. The hate in her heart is a disaster.

Anderson: So Donald, remember when you kind of woke up in the middle of the night the other night and went on a 3am tirade attacking that random woman and telling people to watch her sex tape? What was…what was the deal with that?

Trump: That slut.

Anderson: Let’s move on to the next question, from a man named Kenneth Bone.

Audience Question: I’m Kenneth Bone. I’m Kenneth Bone and I’m wearing this sweater. And this is my mustache.

Anderson: Is that…is that it?

Ken Bone: What’s your plan with energy policy?

Trump: Coal. Coal is the way of the future. China is KILLING us. China is dumping steel on us.

Clinton: China is dumping steel on your shitty face. You buy a ton of Chinese steel. Climate change is a thing. Coal is a thing. Things are things.

Martha: Okay last question, thank fucking god.

Audience Question: It sounds kind of fun and hilarious to make you two say something nice about each other. Go.

Clinton: His kids aren’t terrible people. Somehow.

Trump: The ***** can fight.

Anderson: I’d like to extend my thanks and apologies to the 790 million people who watched this. Goodnight.


----------



## tygrus

olivaw said:


> It's not over till the last vote,is counted but Clinton is favoured to win handily. If the world is good and right, Trump will go down to a humiliating defeat on Nov 8th.


Trump has already won. He has reduced hillary to a place holder lame duck president for 4 years while at the same time he will help purge the tea party out of the GOP. Both parties will have serious soul searching in the next election which will lead to much needed change in their system. He has also shown that you dont need to be slave to outdated policy. 

Your view of the world as good and right by clinton is seriously flawed.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "Trump questioned why Clinton didn't get something done on a topic, and she replied because there was a Republican President with a veto."
> 
> Was she talking about Obama because he has been President for the past 8 years.
> 
> Obama kept all Bush's policies and most of his key people. Didn't do any of the things he promised like free the prisoners from Guantonamo Bay. But somehow the policies everyone hated Bush's guts for are ok when Obama does them. Does this mean Clinton will continue the same course?


No, she was referring to her time as Senator.


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## bass player

Rusty...that was hilarious!!


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## andrewf

bass player said:


> Trump won the debate. The moderator bias was clearly evident early on but Trump handled them well and scored points by pointing out that they kept letting Hillary run over her time but would stop him immediately.
> 
> Hillary was soundly trounced when she claimed that having a public and a private position on issues was something she got from the movie "Lincoln", and when Trump accurately pointed out that "Abe was honest, not like you" it earned a round of applause. Trump also pointed out many of Hillary's failures and she was unable to give an adequate response.


You mean, whining like a pathetic loser that the moderators were being mean to him? I thought that made him look weak.


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## bass player

andrewf said:


> You mean, whining like a pathetic loser that the moderators were being mean to him? I thought that made him look weak.


You thought wrong. He highlighted their obvious bias and that hurt your feelings, so you are reduced to cheap insults. Perhaps you are the pathetic loser?


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## mordko

The moderators were lefties, nothing new there. Martha is a personal friend of Obama. Trump complaints would have played well to his core support but he lost the debate, unless not folding on stage could be counted as a win.

On a side note... how many tons of make up was Clinton wearing and how come Trump has an orange face?


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## andrewf

Among the mouth breathers voting for Trump, do you think it plays well that he whined about two women and a gay dude were supposedly ganging up on him?


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## TomB19

Forget Trump. He's done.

Four years from now, these events will be filtered through Republican media as Hillary's lying and cheating. You know, ... just as they are now. If Trump was to shoot someone, Republican bass players would blame it on Hillary.


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## heyjude

Paul Ryan has basically acknowledged that Trump will lose. He has said that he will no longer work to get Trump elected but will focus on maintaining Republican control of Congress. He advises others to do "whatever they need to do" to further that objective.

Pragmatism is when you stop trying to defend the indefensible.


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## heyjude

In a bizarre ironic twist, Melania Trump wore a pink "*****-bow" blouse to the debate. 

Melania Trump Wore A '***** Bow' Blouse To The Debate. Really.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/10/10/melania-trump-*****-bow-debate_n_12428738.html


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## sags

It was odd at the end of the debate, answering an odd question from the audience about finding one thing to like about each other.........Clinton commented on Trump's wonderful family.........and they smiled and glowed and Trump smiled and glowed. 

Then Trump said Clinton was relentless and never quit, exactly what she says about herself.........and she smiled.

And just like that...........everyone has happy, happy again.

If people want a conspiracy theory...........how about this one ?

This whole Trump campaign looks staged to me from start to finish. 

It is like he entered the race to upset the Republicans and ended up with a nomination he didn't really want.

So he went with it and did everything possible to destroy the Republicans, and what a great job he did.

After attacking each other for months, the Clintons and Trumps will be good buddies again. Watch and see.

Trump was a Democrat and Clinton supporter for years. They have been friends for years, and their families are friends.

Trump and Bill Clinton have a private conversation and Trump becomes a Republican and runs for President.

All coincidences............or have the Republicans suffered the ultimate prank ?


----------



## sags

Donald Trump galvanized the extremist and worst elements of the Republican base of supporters and then rubbed the Republican leadership faces in it.

The Republicans will not only lose the election, and possibly the Senate and Congress.........but will be in tatters as a party for years.

It was an epic take down for the ages, either by design or by accident.


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> .........but will be in tatters as a party for years.


But it was needed. If it didnt happen, the GOP would be on their wayto being a protest rump party with lots of crazy evangelicals and obstructionists thrown in the mix. Now they know they have to reinvent themslves to be a viable alternative.

Same goes with Hilary. If a racist demagogue reality tv start came that close to defeating their star candidate, then there is rot in that party too. 

Like I said before, real change is messy. Maybe at the end of the next 4 years there will be 2 parties closer together on the issues and something gets done.


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## Rusty O'Toole

Sags you may be right about the Trump campaign being a frame up. Recent Wikileaks of Clinton campaign call it the Pied Piper strategy. Use an extreme right wing candidate to draw the Republicans away to their destruction. They proposed using Ted Cruz, Donald Trump or Ben Carson for this. Google Clinton Pied Piper Strategy . Or start with this.

http://therightscoop.com/amazing-leaked-clinton-email-wikileaks-reveals-truth-election/


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## bass player

The conspiracy theories are coming fast and furious from the panicking Hillary supporters... they will make up anything they can to avoid admitting the fact that they are wrong.

Keep 'em coming...it's very entertaining!!


----------



## humble_pie

what's with all the sniffing & snorting?

used to be there was only one explanation but nowadays there are so many substances out there it's impossible to know which one might be the one that is possibly being abused.

never mind the stalking & the wandering. Even when he was standing still, trump's upper body kept twitching & jerking.

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> what's with all the sniffing & snorting?


Hillary's adult diaper was full and the smell was causing Trump discomfort...


----------



## humble_pie

heyjude said:


> Paul Ryan has basically acknowledged that Trump will lose. He has said that he will no longer work to get Trump elected but will focus on maintaining Republican control of Congress. He advises others to do "whatever they need to do" to further that objective.




yes, republican house speaker Paul Ryan is another GOP leader who is urging fellow republicans to abandon donald trump & focus strictly upon their own congressional races.

in a GOP conference call last night, Ryan said he "won't defend" trump. He set republican candidates free to each make his or her own individual decision about how to handle the donald trump smoking gun.

meanwhile republicans continue to flee the trump Titanic, already on her side & more than half-sunk. Many loyal party members have already managed to escape & are sitting in lifeboats at a safe distance. On board the wreck, the band is getting ready to play its final hymn.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...distances-himself-from-trump/article32313812/

.


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## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Hillary's adult diaper was full and the smell was causing Trump discomfort...



you are beyond disgusting


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> you are beyond disgusting


You are confirming the well-known fact that there is no such thing as a progressive with a sense of humour.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> It was odd at the end of the debate, answering an odd question from the audience about finding one thing to like about each other.........Clinton commented on Trump's wonderful family.........and they smiled and glowed and Trump smiled and glowed.


Something that struck me as rather rude from Trump was when Hillary complimented his kids, he said "thank you for the compliment, if it was meant as a compliment". You can see her face start to react in anger and shock at him for doubting her intent but then she decides not to go there, and he changes to say "I take it as a compliment" and she relaxes. How else would she have meant it? They were asked to say something good about the other candidate. Also a bit interesting that she apparently found nothing good about him as a person or a candidate so had to search for a degree of separation.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> You are confirming the well-known fact that there is no such thing as a progressive with a sense of humour.


Just how is that a 'well-known fact'? I've got a fantastic sense of humour, as do many on here (not to mention thousands of entertainers who are left-leaning. Yeah right, Louis CK or Larry David ain't got the funny...). You seem to be confirming the perception that many conservatives are biased against specific groups of people based on their beliefs.


----------



## olivaw

*Clinton's lead over Trump widens in poll taken after lewd tape*



> The poll, which was taken before Sunday's debate but after a 2005 video tape of Trump making lewd comments about women became public, shows the Democratic candidate leading her opponent 46% to 35% -- an 11-point lead -- among likely voters.


Trump didn't do a thing to help his cause with his dark behaviour since the tape aired. He knows he's going down and he wants to bring as many people with him as he can. 

_We're going to lose and lose and lose. 
There will be so much losing you will be sick of losing. _
- Donald J. Trump


----------



## TomB19

It will be interesting to see how much Trump loses by. I suspect he won't lose that by much.


----------



## olivaw

indexxx said:


> Just how is that a 'well-known fact'? I've got a fantastic sense of humour, as do many on here (not to mention thousands of entertainers who are left-leaning. Yeah right, Louis CK or Larry David ain't got the funny...). You seem to be confirming the perception that many conservatives are biased against specific groups of people based on their beliefs.


LOL indexxx. Bass is weird. He posts the equivalent of fart jokes and thinks they are hilarious but misses the point in any humour that is more sophisticated. 

Take for example Tom's comment that the election is going to be close. That's some funny sh-t right there but Bass will think Tom was being serious. (sorry Tom, couldn't resist )


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> You are confirming the well-known fact that there is no such thing as a progressive with a sense of humour.




bass player are you suffering from Stockholm Syndrome too?

why not join me at the 12-step SS program

we'll work on our addictions to donald together





> www.hi_mynameismelania



.


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## olivaw

*The tweetometre*
This was the most tweeted debate of all time. This chart illustrates the tweet sentiment by candidate. 










Source: https://www.cnet.com/news/donald-tr...ebate-twitter-repubilcans-democrats-facebook/

How many tweets were about Melania's adorable _***** Bow_ shirt?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

indexxx said:


> Something that struck me as rather rude from Trump was when Hillary complimented his kids, he said "thank you for the compliment, if it was meant as a compliment". You can see her face start to react in anger and shock at him for doubting her intent but then she decides not to go there, and he changes to say "I take it as a compliment" and she relaxes. How else would she have meant it? They were asked to say something good about the other candidate. Also a bit interesting that she apparently found nothing good about him as a person or a candidate so had to search for a degree of separation.


It's called damning with faint praise. Like the guy who was called on to say something nice about the deceased at a funeral even though they had not spoken in years. The guy looks at the casket for a long moment and says "his brother was worse".

"Say something nice about Donald Trump" "His kids aren't terrible".

"Say something nice about your cousin" "For a fat girl you don't sweat much"

In this case Trump chose the high road, complimenting Hillary on her strength and ability. You could see he was expecting a zinger but quickly decided not to resent the insult to himself, as it might seem churlish in the light of the compliment to his family.

Well played on both sides although it must have hurt Hillary to suggest Trump has good family values and you could see the strain on Trump's face as he decided to be nice.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Say something nice about Trump"

" I can't think of a single good thing about him, but astonishingly, his children turned out ok for hell spawn considering the ghastly family environment they grew up in"

"Take it from me, I'm the female candidate. With children and grandchildren"


----------



## humble_pie

the globe's Sarah Kendzior is an emerging journalist. Not even 30 years old & she writes like a cross between gloria steinem & ernest hemingway.

after the debate last night, sarah said she cried. She wept for american youth, which had just lost all its hope, all its trust, all its respect for the world that surrounds it.

sarah will, i think, recover. She's much too good of a journalist not to.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ate-america-has-already-lost/article32314064/


----------



## humble_pie

Say Something Nice must have been a plant

in fact all those questions sounded planted & the stone-faced audience looked like well-rehearsed aliens


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> Say Something Nice must have been a plant
> 
> in fact all those questions sounded planted & the stone-faced audience looked like well-rehearsed aliens


You are starting to get the picture.


----------



## indexxx

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It's called damning with faint praise. Like the guy who was called on to say something nice about the deceased at a funeral even though they had not spoken in years. The guy looks at the casket for a long moment and says "his brother was worse".
> 
> "Say something nice about Donald Trump" "His kids aren't terrible".
> 
> "Say something nice about your cousin" "For a fat girl you don't sweat much"
> 
> In this case Trump chose the high road, complimenting Hillary on her strength and ability. You could see he was expecting a zinger but quickly decided not to resent the insult to himself, as it might seem churlish in the light of the compliment to his family.
> 
> Well played on both sides although it must have hurt Hillary to suggest Trump has good family values and you could see the strain on Trump's face as he decided to be nice.


I definitely thought she was damning him with faint praise. I could see she felt pressured to find something redeeming to say about him- it was his retort I found very odd.
I thought his compliment to Hillary was tasteful.


----------



## olivaw

Audiences in town halls always look uncomfortable. These are regular people and they are nervous. The questions are pre-submitted and vetted by Gallup as a necessity. I have no doubt that "say something nice about each other" was pre-selected but there was no conspiracy to mislead


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

indexxx said:


> I definitely thought she was damning him with faint praise. I could see she felt pressured to find something redeeming to say about him- it was his retort I found very odd.
> I thought his compliment to Hillary was tasteful.


Notice that when you attack Trump he defends himself but if you treat him halfway decent he will respond generously.


----------



## heyjude

indexxx said:


> I definitely thought she was damning him with faint praise. I could see she felt pressured to find something redeeming to say about him- it was his retort I found very odd.
> I thought his compliment to Hillary was tasteful.


I thought it was ironic that he complimented her on her stick-to-it-iveness, aka stamina. He must realize that he has lost that argument.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Notice that when you attack Trump he defends himself but if you treat him halfway decent he will respond generously.


Hardly. Trump is known for treating little guys like garbage. He is not generous.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

indexxx said:


> I definitely thought she was damning him with faint praise. I could see she felt pressured to find something redeeming to say about him- it was his retort I found very odd.
> I thought his compliment to Hillary was tasteful.


I got the impression Hillary knew the question was coming while Donald was taken by surprise.


----------



## indexxx

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Notice that when you attack Trump he defends himself but if you treat him halfway decent he will respond generously.


I've said several times on here that I think he is probably a fairly decent person generally however I feel he is just not well-balanced and is definitely unfit for the role of POTUS. He's got too many old-guard mindsets around so many things and lacks the knowledge, experience, and true leadership qualities for the position.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

indexxx said:


> I've said several times on here that I think he is probably a fairly decent person generally however I feel he is just not well-balanced and is definitely unfit for the role of POTUS. He's got too many old-guard mindsets around so many things and lacks the knowledge, experience, and true leadership qualities for the position.


I agree except for the part about him being a decent person. Also the part about him being not well balanced. His behavior is logical (from his standpoint) and predictable. He has not changed in the 40 years he has been in the public eye. He never smokes, drinks or takes drugs.


----------



## indexxx

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I agree except for the part about him being a decent person.


I should qualify that- maybe 'decent' wasn't the 'mot juste'. He has indecent behaviour and beliefs (witness his attitude towards women and his 'stars can get away with anything' statement etc.) My reading of Trump is that he's likely got a desire deep down to be a good person, but he's caught up in his ego and greed. I think he wants to take this opportunity to do good for the country and make some changes, but he is woefully unqualified and is at the mercy of his temperament and psychological makeup. He's wily, brusque, gruff, and an a-hole, but like many with those qualities, there is probably a soft centre in there someplace. He's just afraid to show it because as a bully, he would think it's a weakness.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> The conspiracy theories are coming fast and furious from the panicking Hillary supporters... they will make up anything they can to avoid admitting the fact that they are wrong.
> 
> Keep 'em coming...it's very entertaining!!


Hillary is panicking so hard because she is only up 6 points in the polls.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Hillary is panicking so hard because she is only up 6 points in the polls.


If she really is 6 points up. People do lie to polls, and many people that prefer Trump over Hillary will keep it to themselves due to the horrible behavior the left displays to anyone who supports him. His supporters likely include much of the "undecided" as well as even some people who claim they support Hillary.


----------



## sags

New national polls show Hillary Clinton leading by 11 points. That is a huge and insurmountable lead at this point in the campaign.

Clinton is leading by a couple of points in important swing states Florida (3 point lead) and Pennsylvania (6 point lead).

Donald Trump needs to win both those states to get enough electoral votes.

I think a "blow out" election is around 4-5% lead, because the US is pretty evenly split among the two parties, regardless of who the candidate is.

What the numbers mean is that Clinton is getting almost all of the independent votes.

Paul Ryan and some other Republicans best be careful when they hop off the fence. 

They wouldn't want to get any body parts snagged on the barbed wire.

All of Trump's politico advocates have disappeared. Rudy Guiliani is appearing everywhere, like he has been cloned.


----------



## sags

Trump invoked Warren Buffet during the debate and Buffet is fighting mad and striking back.

Buffet revealed his financials and said there is no legal reason Trump can't do the same.

As Trump revealed he hasn't been paying any federal taxes, contrary to what Donald Jr. said after the first debate, there can be only a couple of reasons Trump still refuses to release his tax returns. That would be ties to Russia and other foreign countries, or fraudulent deductions and criminal tax evasion.

Buffet paid more than a million dollars in federal taxes, despite donating billions to charity and he could have used the deduction to reduce his taxes to zero.

The business community is now solidly lined up against Trump, including Mark Cuban, Jack Welch, Carl Icahn and others.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/warren-buffett-trump-taxes-229555


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Trump invoked Warren Buffet during the debate and Buffet is fighting mad and striking back.
> 
> Buffet revealed his financials and said there is no legal reason Trump can't do the same.
> 
> As Trump revealed he hasn't been paying any federal taxes, contrary to what Donald Jr. said after the first debate, there can be only a couple of reasons Trump still refuses to release his tax returns. That would be ties to Russia and other foreign countries, or fraudulent deductions and criminal tax evasion.
> 
> Buffet paid more than a million dollars in federal taxes, despite donating billions to charity and he could have used the deduction to reduce his taxes to zero.
> 
> The business community is now solidly lined up against Trump, including Mark Cuban, Jack Welch, Carl Icahn and others.
> 
> http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/warren-buffett-trump-taxes-229555


Buffet is mad...so what? That isn't news. He's a 1% of the 1% elite who is a big supporter of Hillary. What else is he going to say?

As to Russian ties...do you have any proof, or are you just making things up again? Remember...we don't know if Trump has any Russian ties, but we DO know that Hillary was involved in a deal to help Russia get US uranium.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> New national polls show Hillary Clinton leading by 11 points. That is a huge and insurmountable lead at this point in the campaign.


The WSJ poll was taken after the groping tape but before the second debate. The poll showed Trump at 35% but it is difficult to accept that he has lost such a large portion of the Republican base. The base are Trump supporters and Republicans who would hold their noses and vote Trump to deny Clinton the Whitehouse. That number is usually reported to sit around 40%. 

Clinton sits at 46% which seems more realistic.

Hard to know. My close American friend admitted to me that this is the strangest election of his entire life - and it has been a very long life. He'd raise the average age on this forum if he posted here. 

ETA: One issue working to Trump's advantage is the Supreme Court vacancy. There are a number of voters who want a pro-life candidate who will nominate a justice who would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. Everything else is secondary.


----------



## tygrus

The thing I cant understand about trump is that as misogynist as he, you would think he would do whatever it takes to not lose to a woman. Instead, he doesnt even try. I could debate hillary better than he did.

I think he is hoping for a narrow loss and then go on the speaking and book circuit. That was always the plan but he didnt plan for things being this close, so he has to partly sabotage it himself bit by bit.


----------



## sags

It is hard to believe that Republicans believe people would accept overturning Roe versus Wade and other long held law.

The second law they would have to institute would be martial law.


----------



## wraphter

bass player said:


> As to Russian ties...do you have any proof, or are you just making things up again? Remember...we don't know if Trump has any Russian ties, but we DO know that Hillary was involved in a deal to help Russia get US uranium.




There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that points in the direction that Trump is being influenced by Russian
interests. 

Here is an article in the NYT by Mike Morrell.



> I Ran the C.I.A. Now I’m Endorsing Hillary Clinton.
> 
> During a 33-year career at the Central Intelligence Agency, I served presidents of both parties — three Republicans and three Democrats. I was at President George W. Bush’s side when we were attacked on Sept. 11; as deputy director of the agency, I was with President Obama when we killed Osama bin Laden in 2011.
> 
> I am neither a registered Democrat nor a registered Republican. In my 40 years of voting, I have pulled the lever for candidates of both parties. As a government official, I have always been silent about my preference for president.
> 
> No longer. On Nov. 8, I will vote for Hillary Clinton.
> 
> ............
> 
> Two strongly held beliefs have brought me to this decision. First, Mrs. Clinton is highly qualified to be commander in chief. I trust she will deliver on the most important duty of a president — keeping our nation safe. Second, Donald J. Trump is not only unqualified for the job, but he may well pose a threat to our national security.
> 
> .............
> 
> In sharp contrast to Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Trump has no experience on national security. Even more important, the character traits he has exhibited during the primary season suggest he would be a poor, even dangerous, commander in chief.
> 
> These traits include his obvious need for self-aggrandizement, his overreaction to perceived slights, his tendency to make decisions based on intuition, his refusal to change his views based on new information, his routine carelessness with the facts, his unwillingness to listen to others and his lack of respect for the rule of law.
> 
> The dangers that flow from Mr. Trump’s character are not just risks that would emerge if he became president. It is already damaging our national security.
> 
> President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia was a career intelligence officer, trained to identify vulnerabilities in an individual and to exploit them. That is exactly what he did early in the primaries. Mr. Putin played upon Mr. Trump’s vulnerabilities by complimenting him. He responded just as Mr. Putin had calculated.
> 
> Mr. Putin is a great leader, Mr. Trump says, ignoring that he has killed and jailed journalists and political opponents, has invaded two of his neighbors and is driving his economy to ruin. Mr. Trump has also taken policy positions consistent with Russian, not American, interests — endorsing Russian espionage against the United States, supporting Russia’s annexation of Crimea and giving a green light to a possible Russian invasion of the Baltic States.
> 
> In the intelligence business, we would say that *Mr. Putin had recruited Mr. Trump as an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation.*



Paul Manafort,Trump's previous campaign manager worked for Putin's stooge and henchman in Ukraine Viktor Yanukovitch,
until he was ousted by the Maidan Revolution.

Another advisor Carter Paige has financial interests in Russia.

General Michael Flynn ,Trumps military advisor sat close to Putin at a RT birthday party.

Donald Jr. commented that the organization has received plenty of Russian money.

Trump has resisted the claim that the Russians are hacking the election to the detriment of Clinton, even though
the US government has now stated that it is so.

Then there is Trump's relationship with Russian-American ex-con Felix Sater.




> Former Mafia-linked figure describes association with Trump
> 
> On the 24th floor of Trump Tower, in an office two floors below Donald Trump, Felix Sater was trying to revive his career. The Russian-born businessman had already done a stint in prison for stabbing a man in the face with the stem of a margarita glass, and he was now awaiting sentencing for his role in a Mafia-orchestrated stock fraud scheme — all the while serving as a government informant on the mob and mysterious matters of national security.
> 
> But Sater and his business partners had an idea: They would build Trump towers in U.S. cities and across the former Soviet bloc. Sater pitched it to Trump, who gave Sater’s company rights to explore projects in Moscow as well as in Florida and New York.
> 
> “Anybody can come in and build a tower,” Sater told potential investors, according to testimony in a 2008 court case. “I can build a Trump Tower, because of my relationship with Trump.”
> 
> ...........
> 
> Sater said he popped into Trump’s office frequently over a six-year period to talk business. He recalled flying to Colorado with Trump and said that Trump once asked him to escort his children Donald Jr. and Ivanka around Moscow.
> 
> ................
> 
> Broke and with a young wife and child to support, Sater has said he hooked up with a boyhood friend who was operating a Mafia-linked brokerage firm. He pleaded guilty in 1998 to one count of racketeering as part of a $40 million stock fraud in which Wall Street brokers artificially inflated the price of stocks.
> 
> ............
> 
> Documents show that Trump in 2005 extended Bayrock a one-year deal to develop a project in the Russian capital. Sater said he had located a group of interested Russian investors, as well as a possible site for a luxury high-rise
> 
> ...........


Putin buys political support in the West. He has given money to the FN,the right wing party headed by Marine LePen


----------



## new dog

I am sure Putin would want to influence anyone he can in the world. However Hillary position on putting a no fly zone over Syria could easily result in unfortunate circumstances which could lead to war with Russia and most of us dead so I would rather a friendlier atmosphere in dealing with Russia. Especially since we won't do anything to make Syria any better anyway, so we have nothing to lose keeping Assad in power.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> the globe's Sarah Kendzior is an emerging journalist. Not even 30 years old & she writes like a cross between gloria steinem & ernest hemingway.
> 
> after the debate last night, sarah said she cried. She wept for american youth, which had just lost all its hope, all its trust, all its respect for the world that surrounds it.
> 
> sarah will, i think, recover. She's much too good of a journalist not to.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ate-america-has-already-lost/article32314064/



She seems bent out of shape over Trump and his comments which is understandable but it seems she would be upset over any republican candidate. She doesn't seem to mind Hillary as she says nothing negative about her but Hillary and husband Bill are not any better then Trump.

She also seems bent out of shape about not letting in muslim refugees until the US can find out what they are dealing with. She on one hand doesn't like Trump talking about groping and doesn't mention Bill and then she would like to see many muslim refugees come in, some of who could be masters in the art of groping. 

She does appear to have a very slanted point of view, but writes well.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Remember...we don't know if Trump has any Russian ties, but we DO know that Hillary was involved in a deal to help Russia get US uranium.



bass did you know that you keep repeating the same fake accusations over & over & over again? this one has been addressed.

once again, hillary clinton never sold any uranium to russia. Certainly not US uranium, what a fairytale.


short version:



humble_pie said:


> what was sold to [russia's] rosAtom - by the shareholders, not by hillary clinton - was a publicly-traded canadian uranium mining company called Uranium One, which owned a couple of raw uranium mines in kazakhstan ...
> 
> none of this later part of the story had anything to do with hillary clinton as US secretary of state, other than the fact that the US cabinet had to authorize the sale of US energy critical industries to foreign interests.



long version:

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1281298


.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> She seems bent out of shape over Trump and his comments which is understandable but it seems she would be upset over any republican candidate.



no it doesn't seem she'd be upset by any republican candidate.

there's never in US history been a candidate like donald trump. A shuffling, shambling, stalking, impulse-ridden foul-mouthed dirty old man who cannot, even in the midst of a televised national debate, keep his sentences or his thoughts going in a rational sequence.

for a thoughtful 20-something, trump is so much worse than someone who cannot be respected. He's someone who has to be feared.

.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump presumes he knows more than the collective experience of a long list of both Republican and Democrat Secretaries of State.

He presumes he knows more than a long list of Republican and Democratic Presidents.

He presumes he knows more 5 star generals, who have spent a lifetime in the military and field of battle.

He learned all this while securing 4 deferrals for military duty in Vietnam. The last one because of a "heel spur". which apparently wasn't bad enough to stop him from playing college sports. If he really wanted to serve his country, I am sure the military could have found him a spot in a tank or Humvee. 

Somebody else went to Vietnam in Donald Trump's place and may not have come back, but he says he has sacrificed a lot.

"How so", he was asked by a reporter. "I built a great company and great buildings", he said. 

Well there you go.........that equals things out.

Trump is a tough talking braggard who didn't possess the kahunas to even perform his own military duty.

And then he has the nerve to say John McCain and others weren't heroes because they were captured.

Trump was a draft dodger and a coward...............and draft dodgers and cowards should never be the commander in chief.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> no it doesn't seem she'd be upset by any republican candidate.
> 
> there's never in US history been a candidate like donald trump. A shuffling, shambling, stalking, impulse-ridden foul-mouthed dirty old man who cannot, even in the midst of a televised national debate, keep his sentences or his thoughts going in a rational sequence.
> 
> for a thoughtful 20-something, trump is so much worse than someone who cannot be respected. He's someone who has to be feared.
> 
> .




Much like Hillary, I agree, only Hillary has said she will risk war with Russia over Syria. Being financial forum buddies I am sure you are familiar with risk and reward. In Syria if the US intervenes it is all risk and there is no reward, no matter how it goes. So far the US has tried to destabilize Syria, back the rebels and ISIS indirectly and bring Russia into the picture, so Obama's policy has been an absolute failure of the worst kind. I would rather be alive and deal with a locker room foul talker then be dead and have Bill the same as Trump in the Whitehouse.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

What branch of the military did Hillary serve in?

Last President to see active duty was George Bush senior, a decorated Navy pilot in WW2. George Bush junior served in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam war. Neither Clinton nor Obama served.

Reagan and every other president back to Truman were veterans.


----------



## mrPPincer

With the presidency locked in (more or less), and the republicans divided between two camps, the old guard & the grass root uprising, there's a very good chance the dems will take not only the senate but possibly also the house.

The upside could be that they wouldn't be in deadlock any longer and could actually get some sh!t done.

Down side - could be that they wouldn't be in deadlock any longer and could actually get some sh!t done.


----------



## olivaw

Dems may very well take the senate. 

It is structurally difficult for the Democrats to take the house. Congressional districts are mapped in such a way as to make Republican votes more efficient than Democratic. There is a claim that Republican governors have gerrymandered to make this happen but there has been no legal test. You have to work with the system you have and that system may not work for the Democrats. 

Still Paul Ryan is concerned that he will lose his house majority and his speakership if Trump continues to wreak havoc.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> What branch of the military did Hillary serve in?


Neither Trump nor Hillary have served in the military. 

Trump thinks he knows more than the generals based on his zero experience. 

Hillary Clinton has experience working with senior military and intelligence personnel. Reports suggest she listens respectfully and intently to the experts. 

I think Hillary wins the commander in chief debate hands down.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> Much like Hillary, I agree, only Hillary has said she will risk war with Russia over Syria. Being financial forum buddies I am sure you are familiar with risk and reward. In Syria if the US intervenes it is all risk and there is no reward, no matter how it goes. So far the US has tried to destabilize Syria, back the rebels and ISIS indirectly and bring Russia into the picture, so Obama's policy has been an absolute failure of the worst kind. I would rather be alive and deal with a locker room foul talker then be dead and have Bill the same as Trump in the Whitehouse.


On the flip side, Trump was courting war with Russia and China by suggesting, respectively, that the US would not honour NATO treaty commitments and that South Korea and Japan should obtain nuclear weapons.


----------



## sags

Trump is all over the map on national security and foreign affairs issues. Nobody knows what he would do because he doesn't know what he would do. His policies change with all too frequent regularity.

The most he has said on the topic, beyond criticism of previous administrations, is that he will order the generals to come up with a plan.

What does he think the military has been doing for 200 years, if not strategic planning ? What does he think they teach at West Point ?

As Obama has said...if anyone has a better plan they should bring it forward. 

He is willing to listen, but he takes the advice of his knowledgeable and experienced military and intelligence experts very seriously.

Trump has convinced himself he is gifted with such superior intelligence that whatever plan he dreams up will be the solution to everything.

He believes this despite possessing no fundamental understanding of the depth of the problems.

Of all the issues in this election campaign, foreign affairs is the most critical and is the one in which Donald Trump lacks any knowledge.

Syria, Iran, Russia, North Korea, China...........these are not problems with simple solutions.

Trump supporters must have no concerns over these problems, and their only desire is to prevent Hillary Clinton from winning.

I don't think Trump supporters have thought beyond the day that Trump is elected. Then what ?

Other than a few minutes of personal satisfaction at defeating Hillary Clinton, reality will start to sink in.


----------



## sags

Even if voters accepted all accusations on both sides to be true, there are only 2 choices and Hillary Clinton is the best one by far.

The CIA and NSA have reported they have information that the incoming President will be immediately tested by foreign nations.

Who would Americans and the world prefer to handle that first international crisis ? Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton ?


----------



## sags

olivaw said:


> Neither Trump nor Hillary have served in the military.
> 
> Trump thinks he knows more than the generals based on his zero experience.
> 
> Hillary Clinton has experience working with senior military and intelligence personnel. Reports suggest she listens respectfully and intently to the experts.
> 
> I think Hillary wins the commander in chief debate hands down.


Hillary Clinton has also participated actively in military and security decisions that President Obama has made, including targeting Bin Laden.

She was also in the White House as the First Lady, as President Bill Clinton dealt with military and security matters.

She has also served on Senate Committees and been privy to military and security debates and issues.

Hillary Clinton has a wealth of experience and knowledge that spans decades and that few Presidential candidates have ever had.

While she was gaining that knowledge and experience, Donald Trump was developing real estate.


----------



## sags

All these accusations against Hillary Clinton, including the latest that Clinton "mocked" a 12 year old girl who said she had been raped.

Donald Trump brought the woman to the last debate, trying to humiliate Hillary Clinton.

Clinton had no experience in criminal court when she was asked by the Attorney General to defend the accused because he wanted a female lawyer to represent him.

As his defense lawyer, Hillary Clinton had a duty to her client, reprehensible as he may be, to represent him to the best of her ability.

The prosecution offered the accused a plea bargain because........they had destroyed their own evidence.

The prosecution sent the man's underwear to a forensic lab, where they cut out the part that was stained and analysed it.

They sent to the prosecutor the pants, with a hole cut in them, and threw out the cut out part with the evidence nullifying any analysis.

Upon learning this, the prosecutor reduced the charge and offered a plea and was asking for a sentence of 5 years in prison. 

The guy received a sentence of 5 years in prison with 4 years of the sentence suspended. He served 1 year in prison. 10 months plus 2 months detention for time served as he had been denied bail.

Clinton's laughing on the tape...........clearly has nothing to do with the victim or the accused.

She is laughing at the unbelievable incompetence of the forensic lab and that the guy had passed a lie detector test.....which she said forever destroyed her faith in lie detector tests.

Clinton is accused of saying terrible things to the young girl. It is an absolute lie. The case never went to trial. There was an agreed upon plea bargain offered by the prosecutor and it was accepted by the defendant.

The so called "remarks" from Clinton were contained in a petition to the court seeking a psychiatric evaluation of the complainant be ordered. It was through an investigation of the crime that Clinton attained the information that warranted the testing.

As Paul Harvey used to say.........and now you have the rest of the story.........the true story.

Given their propensity to lie, obfuscate the truth, and generate falsehood, I question the truth in any of the allegations against Clinton raised by Trump, Republicans and other anti-Clinton people.

Fox News.........most certainly not a liberal biased news source.

If you listen to the tape recording, it refutes the points that Fox News is trying to make against Clinton, but misunderstood in their haste.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ccused-rapist-audio-her-laughing-at-case.html

Court documents.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/229667084/State-of-Arkansas-V-Thomas-Alfred-Taylor


----------



## olivaw

^ Thanks for posting this Sags. This happened in 1975. At no time was Hillary Clinton cruel to the victim. As you say, she was appointed by the court and accepted a plea bargain on behalf of her client. . 

Republican prosecutor Kenneth Starr investigated allegations of sexual misconduct by Bill Clinton. After a lengthy investigation and trial before the United States Senate, all 45 Democrats and 10 Republicans voted to acquit. i.e. Not Guilty. . 

Trump is playing with fire. The New York Court has agreed to hear allegations that Trump raped a 13 year old girl. Most mainstream media outlets have chosen not to report these unproven allegations. So much for media bias.

*Judge sets date for hearing of lawsuit accusing Donald Trump of underage rape*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...p-accused-underage-rape-lawsuit-a7352976.html


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Trump is all over the map on national security and foreign affairs issues. Nobody knows what he would do because he doesn't know what he would do. His policies change with all too frequent regularity.
> 
> The most he has said on the topic, beyond criticism of previous administrations, is that he will order the generals to come up with a plan.
> 
> What does he think the military has been doing for 200 years, if not strategic planning ? What does he think they teach at West Point ?
> 
> As Obama has said...if anyone has a better plan they should bring it forward.
> 
> He is willing to listen, but he takes the advice of his knowledgeable and experienced military and intelligence experts very seriously.
> 
> Trump has convinced himself he is gifted with such superior intelligence that whatever plan he dreams up will be the solution to everything.
> 
> He believes this despite possessing no fundamental understanding of the depth of the problems.
> 
> Of all the issues in this election campaign, foreign affairs is the most critical and is the one in which Donald Trump lacks any knowledge.
> 
> Syria, Iran, Russia, North Korea, China...........these are not problems with simple solutions.
> 
> Trump supporters must have no concerns over these problems, and their only desire is to prevent Hillary Clinton from winning.
> 
> I don't think Trump supporters have thought beyond the day that Trump is elected. Then what ?
> 
> Other than a few minutes of personal satisfaction at defeating Hillary Clinton, reality will start to sink in.



They haven't done anything to any of these countries accept to make things far worse then they were before. All the countries they took over made tons of money for someone first of all and then they left a vacuum for ISIS to form and thrive. I saw a figure once that since the war on terror in 2001 or whatever terrorism incidents had risen over 2000 percent since then. We are also now on the brink of war with super powers and many countries hate the US and don't respect it because of what they have done. Syria everyone knows is in the way of a Qatar gas pipeline to Europe and it goes from there. If Assad played nice and became a puppet I am sure no one would care less if he wiped out the rebels.

Then you have North Korea which just gets nukes and the US couldn't stop them. Saudi Arabia is killing people in Yemen through bombing but the US doesn't care because they are on our side and they have laws similar to ISIS and again that is fine. Afghanistan was a success with opium production going through the roof so that is not good and you can go on. 

So to me it looks like a huge mess and failure except for those who have made money off the wars and policy. No one really cares about killing innocent people it is all about power and money.


----------



## wraphter

Hillary the Hawk



> But she was understandably wary of talking about areas in which she and Obama split — namely, on bedrock issues of war and peace, where Clinton’s more activist philosophy had already collided in unpredictable ways with her boss’s instincts toward restraint. She had backed Gen. Stanley McChrystal’s recommendation to send 40,000 more troops to Afghanistan, before endorsing a fallback proposal of 30,000 (Obama went along with that, though he stipulated that the soldiers would begin to pull out again in July 2011, which she viewed as problematic). She supported the Pentagon’s plan to leave behind a residual force of 10,000 to 20,000 American troops in Iraq (Obama balked at this, largely because of his inability to win legal protections from the Iraqis, a failure that was to haunt him when the Islamic State overran much of the country). And she pressed for the United States to funnel arms to the rebels in Syria’s civil war (an idea Obama initially rebuffed before later, halfheartedly, coming around to it).
> 
> 
> That fundamental tension between Clinton and the president would continue to be a defining feature of her four-year tenure as secretary of state. In the administration’s first high-level meeting on Russia in February 2009, aides to Obama proposed that the United States make some symbolic concessions to Russia as a gesture of its good will in resetting the relationship. Clinton, the last to speak, brusquely rejected the idea, saying, “I’m not giving up anything for nothing.”
> 
> ............
> 
> But Clinton’s foreign-policy instincts are bred in the bone — grounded in cold realism about human nature and what one aide calls “a textbook view of American exceptionalism.” It set her apart from her rival-turned-boss, Barack Obama, who avoided military entanglements and tried to reconcile Americans to a world in which the United States was no longer the undisputed hegemon. And it will likely set her apart from the Republican candidate she meets in the general election. For all their bluster about bombing the Islamic State into oblivion, neither Donald J. Trump nor Senator Ted Cruz of Texas has demonstrated anywhere near the appetite for military engagement abroad that Clinton has.
> 
> ..........
> 
> There are many ways to examine that record, but one of the most revealing is to explore her decades-long cultivation of the military — not just civilian leaders like Gates, but also its high-ranking commanders, the men with the medals. Her affinity for the armed forces is rooted in a lifelong belief that the calculated use of military power is vital to defending national interests, that American intervention does more good than harm and that the writ of the United States properly reaches, as Bush once put it, into “any dark corner of the world.”
> Unexpectedly, in the bombastic, testosterone-fueled presidential election of 2016, Hillary Clinton is the last true hawk left in the race.
> 
> ....................
> 
> “She believes, like presidents going back to the Reagan or Kennedy years, in the importance of the military — in solving terrorism, in asserting American influence. The shift with Obama is that he went from reliance on the military to the intelligence agencies.
> 
> ..............
> 
> She grew up in the buoyant aftermath of World War II, the daughter of a Navy petty officer who trained young sailors before they shipped out to the Pacific. Her father, Hugh Rodham, was a staunch Republican and an anticommunist, and she channeled his views. She talks often about her girlhood dream of becoming an astronaut, citing the rejection letter she got from NASA as the first time she encountered gender discrimination. Her real motive for volunteering, she has written, may have been because her father fretted that “America was lagging behind Russia.”
> 
> ...........
> 
> In April 2015, the week before she announced her candidacy, Clinton asked him for a briefing on military options for dealing with the fighters of the Islamic State. Bringing along three young female analysts from the Institute for the Study of War, Keane gave her a 2-hour-20-minute presentation. Among other steps, he advocated imposing a no-fly zone over parts of Syria that would neutralize the air power of the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, with a goal of forcing him into a political settlement with opposition groups. Six months later, Clinton publicly adopted this position, further distancing herself from Obama.


The passive policies of President Milquetoast have led us to the edge of the nuclear abyss . Hopefully Hillary the Hawk
can save the day.


----------



## tygrus

Sags, the solution to some of those problems you mention is simple, its just lacking the will to go against entrenched policy.

For instance, all the little geopolitical hotspots would cool down immediately if the US simply went home. Their military is breathing down the necks of numerous countries and its causing tension. We continue to provoke Putin and china. Why did we send all our manufacturing to china to build them up to a super power and now have to face them militarily? 

Same goes with the economy. You dont make policies that send good jobs overseas, return unskilled workers to take whats left and then manage the corpse of that remaining economy with massive debt increases and central bank stimulus.

You can slag trump all you want, its fair, but dont you dare praise obama and clinton like the 2nd coming because their policies are just as dangerous.


----------



## wraphter

> For instance, all the little geopolitical hotspots would cool down immediately if the US simply went home.


You're sure of that ,are you?

These little hotspots would become big hotspots if the US withdrew.

Indeed it has already happened.

Obama unwisely withdrew all American troops from Iraq. ISIS flourished. The Iraqi army abandoned all its American
military equipment to ISIS and fled Mosul. Now with American assistance they are taking it back.

Without NATO, the Russians would be in the Baltics tomorrow.

When Obama refused to bomb Assad after he crossed the so-called red line ,it emboldened the Russians to come to the aid
of Assad and enormously complicate the situation in Syria. Obama's passivity led to hundreds of thousands of Syrian
dead and millions of refugees flowing into Europe.

Obama's passivity and withdrawal have created a real crisis.
Doing nothing is not an option.


----------



## tygrus

ISIS would have never happened if US never went into Iraq at all. Then toppling a bunch of smaller dictators didnt help. Should have just stayed home. And putin got riled up when we tried to make Ukraine a nato member and set missiles there. What did we think he was going to do when provoked like that? 

I'm with trump, fall back to the mainland, arm the f*** out of it and let the world go to hell.


----------



## andrewf

^ That's really dumb. The US can't build a wall tall enough to keep the world out.


----------



## mordko

tygrus said:


> ISIS would have never happened if US never went into Iraq at all. Then toppling a bunch of smaller dictators didnt help. Should have just stayed home. And putin got riled up when we tried to make Ukraine a nato member and set missiles there. What did we think he was going to do when provoked like that?
> 
> I'm with trump, fall back to the mainland, arm the f*** out of it and let the world go to hell.


Ridiculous. Al Qaeda and a whole bunch of other islamist terrorist organizations happened before US went into Iraq. 

The threat of ISIS was underestimated in 2014, which is why it escalated dramatically. Same thing happened with Al Qaeda in late 1990s.


----------



## tygrus

Who said wall? Missiles and ships will do.

I'm sick of the BS in the world. It cant be fixed no matter how much engagement is done. Even taking over a country doesnt work anymore. 

Fastest way to WW3 is to stick your nose in more places it doesnt belong. I choose disengagement.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> They haven't done anything to any of these countries accept to make things far worse then they were before. All the countries they took over made tons of money for someone first of all and then they left a vacuum for ISIS to form and thrive. I saw a figure once that since the war on terror in 2001 or whatever terrorism incidents had risen over 2000 percent since then. We are also now on the brink of war with super powers and many countries hate the US and don't respect it because of what they have done. Syria everyone knows is in the way of a Qatar gas pipeline to Europe and it goes from there. If Assad played nice and became a puppet I am sure no one would care less if he wiped out the rebels.
> 
> Then you have North Korea which just gets nukes and the US couldn't stop them. Saudi Arabia is killing people in Yemen through bombing but the US doesn't care because they are on our side and they have laws similar to ISIS and again that is fine. Afghanistan was a success with opium production going through the roof so that is not good and you can go on.
> 
> So to me it looks like a huge mess and failure except for those who have made money off the wars and policy. No one really cares about killing innocent people it is all about power and money.




dogcom the problem i always have with your views of current history & foreign policy is that you keep comparing present-day circumstances to a mythical paradise. A paradise that would have existed - you seem to be saying - if only all the recent past leaders of the US, canada, western europe & NATO had never existed.

then you call for retreating into the house & closing the front door, while riots rage outside in the streets & the city is in flames ...

but i don't agree with this retreat. As others upthread keep pointing out, the situation is increasingly dangerous & complex. No one has any answers. Certainly not moscow - although you do seem to be dazzled by vladimir putin - nor washington nor london.

dogcom did you ever try getting your complaints across to the DOD via your MP? here in canada every citizen has an excellent opportunity to do this, especially right now while ottawa is in the midst of a giant re-structuring of canadian defence & foreign policy.

last summer the DOD held community meetings in all big canadian cities, precisely in order to hear from ordinary citizens about the new defence policy it's building. Did you happen to attend one of these ...

.


----------



## olivaw

ISIS would never have become a major force if the United States had not invaded Iraq and disbanded the military. 

Sadly isolationism is no longer a viable option for the United States, or for Canada. We have to minimize interference in the internal affairs of other countries but the world is too integrated to take an entirely hands off approach. 

Trump hasn't actually called for isolationism. He complained that he wants Japan and some other countries to pay more into NATO. He said the US "might not" honour the treaties. He said that Assad and Putin should have a free hand to deal with ISIS. Given that ISIS is in numerous countries, is Putin free to intervene in every country? Should Russia station troops in Iraq?


----------



## mordko

And Boko Haram would never have happened had US never gone into Nigeria. Oh, wait... US never did take over Nigeria.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Hillary the Hawk
> 
> The passive policies of President Milquetoast have led us to the edge of the nuclear abyss . Hopefully Hillary the Hawk
> can save the day.



this is a valuable contribution. I was struck by this sentence:

_" Her [Hillary Clinton's] affinity for the armed forces is rooted in a lifelong belief that the calculated use of military power is vital to defending national interests."_


we have it much easier here in canada. We're such a small country that we can afford to say We'll go for peacekeeping, We'll eschew aggressor operations such as F-18 bombing, We'll send elite commando troops to train democratic armies, We'll supply armed rescue helicopters & moveable combat hospitals to battle zones, We'll keep our halos on, We'll keep our canadian noses squeaky clean."

but this means that the US has to carry the heavy load.

.


----------



## olivaw

Trump is taking out his rage on Paul Ryan and the GOP now. He tweeted: 


Donald Trump said:


> Despite winning the second debate in a landslide (every poll), it is hard to do well when Paul Ryan and others give zero support!





Donald Trump said:


> Our very weak and ineffective leader, Paul Ryan, had a bad conference call where his members went wild at his disloyalty.





Donald Trump said:


> It is so nice that the shackles have been taken off me and I can now fight for America the way I want to.





Donald Trump said:


> With the exception of cheating Bernie out of the nom the Dems have always proven to be far more loyal to each other than the Republicans!





Donald Trump said:


> Disloyal R's are far more difficult than Crooked Hillary. They come at you from all sides. They don’t know how to win - I will teach them!


----------



## TomB19

This is really getting good. lol!


----------



## tygrus

Does military intervention quell unrest, or stoke it? Thats the fundamental question. I offer that it stokes it and creates multiple events down the line. We are still dealing with some stupid decisions that happened all the way back in WW2 even as far back as the crusades.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> He [trump] complained that he wants Japan and some other countries to pay more into NATO. He said the US "might not" honour the treaties.



japan is a member of NATO? i thought that officially non-aligned is bedrock policy for the land of the rising sun?

so far, donald trump's pronouncements on NATO seem higgledy-piggledy to me. On the one hand he says that NATO member countries who don't pay their fair share based on national GDP should forfeit all NATO protection. But on the other hand he suggests that the US should turn its back on the 28-member military alliance.

.


----------



## mrPPincer

> TomB19
> 
> This is really getting good. lol!


Can't wait to see the SNL skit.
I've never had more entertainment watching a US federal election than this time around


----------



## humble_pie

tygrus said:


> Does military intervention quell unrest, or stoke it? Thats the fundamental question. I offer that it stokes it and creates multiple events down the line. We are still dealing with some stupid decisions that happened all the way back in WW2 even as far back as the crusades.



if you're referencing the ME it was WW I ...

the problem with non-intervention is that non-violent resistance doesn't have enough precedence as a combat technique. It succeeded with Gandhi. It succeeded with the Danes during WW II. It succeeded with Martin Luther King.

anyone else? any other times?

.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> And Boko Haram would never have happened had US never gone into Nigeria. Oh, wait... US never did take over Nigeria.


If you were replying to my post (directly preceding yours). I said that ISIS would not have become a _major force_ The organization attracted trained former Iraqi military, law enforcement and propaganda personnel who knew how to take advantage of the existing upheaval in Syria and Iraq. 

The preceding debate about the degree of military intervention does not take into account that these nations are sovereign nations. If the legitimate government of a nation asks for help, we should discuss it. If the government tells us to stay away then we probably should stay away unless that country threatens our security or openly harbours a group that threatens our security.


----------



## olivaw

Another Trump tweet:


The Donald said:


> The very foul mouthed Sen. John McCain begged for my support during his primary (I gave, he won), then dropped me over locker room remarks!


----------



## tygrus

We need to realize that bad things happen in the world due to politics, religion, idealogy, etc. The question we need to ask ourselves do we make them badder? 

Its mainly because the objectives are not clear. Something like the holocaust, is so clear, but now we have something like syria, Kurds fighting for independence and being hired to fight ISIS, rebel forces looking for an islamic state, Russia looking for an economic alliance to counter Turkey, US looking to buffer an ally, proxy cold war, pipelines, natural gas, military bases etc etc and all the while everyone is trying to fight ISIS in there. How on earth does this end well?


----------



## TomB19

tygrus said:


> The question we need to ask ourselves do we make them badder?


What is that? Communism?

lol!


----------



## olivaw

Glenn Beck (yes the Crazy guy who used to work at Fox) has *endorsed* Hillary Clinton. (links to Facebook). 


> If the consequence of standing against Trump and for principles is indeed the election of Hillary Clinton, so be it. At least it is a moral, ethical choice.
> If she is elected, the world does not end.... Once elected, Hillary can be fought. Her tactics are blatant and juvenile, and battling her by means of political and procedural maneuvering or through the media , through public marches and online articles, all of that will be moral, worthy of man of principal.


----------



## Eclectic12

tygrus said:


> ... all the little geopolitical hotspots would cool down immediately if the US simply went home ...
> Who said wall?
> Missiles and ships will do ...


You mean the same missiles and ships that stopped the Sept 11th, 2001 attack?


BTW ... do you really think that stepping back after how many years of interference, bad policy, military adventures, the various groups are going to say "call of the attacks on America - they left us alone finally'?

Somehow, I doubt it.


Cheers


*PS*



tygrus said:


> Does military intervention quell unrest, or stoke it?
> Thats the fundamental question. I offer that it stokes it and creates multiple events down the line..


Just as key is "What is the enemy likely to do when a retreat to bunker USA happens?".

I suspect they will step up their efforts to get rid of the USA, while bragging about how they chased out the imperial invader.


----------



## humble_pie

tygrus said:


> We need to realize that bad things happen in the world due to politics, religion, idealogy, etc. The question we need to ask ourselves do we make them badder?
> 
> Its mainly because the objectives are not clear. Something like the holocaust, is so clear, but now we have something like syria, Kurds fighting for independence and being hired to fight ISIS, rebel forces looking for an islamic state, Russia looking for an economic alliance to counter Turkey, US looking to buffer an ally, proxy cold war, pipelines, natural gas, military bases etc etc and all the while everyone is trying to fight ISIS in there. How on earth does this end well?




tyg i couldn't agree with you more. This is the age-old question. What do we do instead of going to war.

the very atomic scientists who achieved the first sustained critical atomic reaction at Stagg field in chicago - in an intense high-pressure race directed by the White House to create the atomic bombs that would end WW II in the pacific - those atomic scientists were aghast at what they had created.

the majority joined a call that atomic bombs should never be used by mankind again. They moved to the argonne national laboratory. They moved to los Alamos. They founded the anti-war Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.

but it was too late. The genie was out of the bottle.

here we are, 71 years later & things are as bad as they've ever been. Perhaps worse.

i do see some hopeful aspects in the present situation but won't take the space to post here. IMHO when it comes to struggling to prevent the world from incinerating itself, hillary clinton is far & away the wiser choice of the 2 candidates. In fact there is no choice.

there are clear signs that russia is actively undermining clinton's campaign. Last friday's leaks of her strategy papers immediately prior to sunday's debate, for example. But we should not imagine for a minute that the kremlin feels friendly towards donald trump. Rather, russia knows it can manipulate trump far more easily than it can sway clinton.


.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> i do see some hopeful aspects in the present situation but won't take the space to post here. IMHO when it comes to struggling to prevent the world from incinerating itself, hillary clinton is far & away the wiser choice of the 2 candidates. In fact there is no choice.


Hillary only cares about one thing...power and enriching herself. She called half of Trump's supporters "deplorables", but the reality is that anyone who isn't part of her elite group is a deplorable in her mind. If you were an American citizen, she would look down on you with disdain. If the world has to be destroyed for her to further her ambitions, then she would willingly push the button.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> Rather, russia knows it can manipulate trump far more easily than it can sway clinton.


Russia, just like everyone else, already knows Hillary can be bought. All it takes is a donation to the Clinton Foundation to buy favours.

Trump, whether you like him or not, cares a lot more about the US than Hillary does, and he won't back down from Putin or take a bribe.


----------



## olivaw

*Wikileaks*

Speaking of Russia .......

Another Donald Trump oopsie: he read a leaked Clinton email doctored by Russian Sputnik media

Het told a crowd of supporters that "sleazy Sidney" (Sidney Blumenthal) was "now admitting they could have done something about Benghazi." 

Blumenthal did not say that. It was said in a Newsweek opinion article that Blumenthal referenced and pasted at the end of an email. .

Russian ************ agency on Monday also attributed the Newsweek quote to Blumenthal.

Not to advance conspiracy theories or anything but is Trump working with Sputnik? :encouragement:


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Hillary only cares about one thing...power and enriching herself. She called half of Trump's supporters "deplorables", but the reality is that anyone who isn't part of her elite group is a deplorable in her mind. If you were an American citizen, she would look down on you with disdain. If the world has to be destroyed for her to further her ambitions, then she would willingly push the button.



sillier & sillier. Bass are there any women anywhere in the world whom you can even tolerate? 

hillary's ok. Tough & ambitious. She's also smart, experienced & a good team player. Plus even her worst enemy said it: Hillary doesn't give up.

what else were you wanting in a US president? bambi?

.


----------



## bass player

humble...if you haven't noticed yet, there are plenty of great women around. However, Hillary isn't one of them.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> humble...if you haven't noticed yet, there are plenty of great women around.



ouais juste comme la jolie nelley

bass en ce que concerne nelley, que se passe-t-il actuellement avec cette fille?

.


----------



## olivaw

Le maître chaussette marionnette se cache


----------



## sags

Hillary Clinton provided input during her time as Secretary of State, but she didn't make the final decisions and she often disagreed. 

She was serving at the discretion of the President and she defended his decisions without revealing any differences of opinions.

It is Clinton's time now. She will make and be responsible for the decisions. 

I believe Hillary Clinton has the best experience, judgement, and determination to make those decisions.

She possesses enough of a "mean" streak to scare Putin. She has already said she will specifically target the leader of ISIS for assassination.

She has consulted with military experts and has concluded the US should institute a safe zone and no fly zone in Syria.

I also believe that having her husband Bill by her side is a huge asset, given his past economic success record. She also has good relationships with past Republican Presidents Bush and many Democratic and Republican experts on foreign affairs. She is on a first name basis with world leaders. In short, she knows what she is doing. She knows how to navigate the jungle of US politics and she is willing to work with Republicans to get things done.

It doesn't appear the Trump has any interest in developing close relationships with anyone who doesn't agree with him.

He would be the "Lonely President" with radical alt right views, and that is a scary thought.


----------



## mrPPincer

olivaw said:


> Le maître chaussette marionnette se cache


Ils sont partis pour une bonne lorsque leur nom est devenu Conspiracy Nelly.


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> She has consulted with military experts and has concluded the US should institute a safe zone and no fly zone in Syria.


Well that would actually involve shooting down russian jets. That something you want to try?

Clinton is a placeholder, nothing more. Stop talking about her like she is the next Kennedy or something.


----------



## bass player

tygrus said:


> Clinton is a placeholder, nothing more. Stop talking about her like she is the next Kennedy or something.


She probably admires how Teddy left someone to die while he built his alibi...


----------



## humble_pie

comme on a mentioné nelley c'était une fille de joie version S-M


----------



## humble_pie

speaking of the kennedys, have any of them said anything during this election campaign? caroline perhaps cannot, if she's still ambassador to japan, but there are hundreds of kennedy cousins


----------



## sags

tygrus said:


> Well that would actually involve shooting down russian jets. That something you want to try?
> 
> Clinton is a placeholder, nothing more. Stop talking about her like she is the next Kennedy or something.


If the US implements a safe zone and no fly zone, and populates it with US troops, any incursion would be defended by US military.

There would be standing orders to intercept and redirect aircraft and shoot them down if they launched an attack.

The US has maintained and will always maintain, the absolute right to defend their troops.


----------



## sags

Speaking of mistakes in Iraq.....which some try to apply to Barrack Obama, and of Ted Kennedy.........a little history lesson.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> comme on a mentioné nelley c'était une fille de joie version S-M


50 nuances de Nelley?


----------



## sags

And Hillary Clinton and Donald Rumsfeld on the war in Iraq.......for those who question Clinton's knowledge of events.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> If the US implements a safe zone and no fly zone, and populates it with US troops, any incursion would be defended by US military.
> 
> There would be standing orders to intercept and redirect aircraft and shoot them down if they launched an attack.



good grief, how unthinkable. Surely hillary would go after the no-fly zone with as broad a base of foreign support as she could muster.

speaking of mustering, no one has mentioned the 65,000 syrian refugees hillary said she'd like to bring to the US.

this must be the result of pressure from some authority or authorities in europe. Some country or countries must be saying We-can't-beef-up-your-military-initiative-in-syria-iraq-because-we-don't-have-the-money. Plus they are saying We-won't-have-the-money-unless-you-take-some-of-our-excess-refugees-off-our-hands ...


----------



## sags

I agree that Clinton would seek a broad approach to protecting a safe zone/no fly zone. She has the connections to put together a coalition of forces, that Trump lacks.

But in any event, the US would be expected to lead and if the decision is to be there with US troops, the US will defend them. (as per the line I added to my initial quote) The US will not put their troops in harms way and then abandon them.

And you are probably right about the "sausage making" of policy going on in the background, which nobody understands better than Clinton.

Donald Trump's policy of retraction and a hand's off approach would embolden Putin further and Russian incursions would spread further.

Would a Trump retraction policy also apply to North Korea ? Perhaps, as Trump has stated he is comfortable with the spread of nuclear weapons to Japan and South Korea.

As I posted earlier, US intelligence has reported they believe the new administration will be tested early for it's strength and resolve.

The incoming President must possess the knowledge, experience and resolve to respond.


----------



## olivaw

The United States or NATO would certainly have the military capacity to impose a no-fly zone in Syria but the legal and ethical arguments are complex. 


Humble, 65,000 refugees is a drop in the bucket to a country the size of the United States.


----------



## tygrus

Sags, have you ever heard the saying, if you break it you buy it? Or what does a dog that chases a bus do with it once he catches it?

Thats a roundabout way of saying, if putin wants to be in syria, or the ME, let him go. He can have it. He is no threat from there. He will just get bogged down in the quagmire like dozens of other nations have. Romans, Britain, France, Soviets and now US have all had to learn this the hard way. Let him too.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> The United States or NATO would certainly have the military capacity to impose a no-fly zone in Syria but the legal and ethical arguments are complex.
> 
> Humble, 65,000 refugees is a drop in the bucket to a country the size of the United States.



yes, complex no-fly zone. For a moment kerry & lavrov seemed to have agreement, but then the magic moment passed.

re: drop in bucket. It's true that 65,000 refugees for the US is tiny compared to canada's ratio, which itself was modest. But i was assuming that any refugees at all - even as few as five or ten - are not wanted by any party in the US of A at the present moment.

candidates during election campaigns normally won't go where voters don't want to go. At least, not during the actual campaigns.

that's why i wondered whether 65,000 refugees might be the result of pressure being placed on washington from overseas. No idea who or where. Jordan maybe?

.


----------



## olivaw

On the refugees, no doubt Hillary Clinton is aware of international pressure on the United States to do more and the 65,000 comment may be related to that. 

I googled refugee poll united states and found mixed results. One poll suggested that Americans were on board with Obama's plan to bring in 10,000 refugees but I could not see see a poll that went to 65,000. 

My American friends who are Democrats admire the way that Canada welcomed the refugees. 

My Republican friends (who are fewer and not as close) have never commented on it. I suspect they don't approve and they are too polite to criticize our country to our faces.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> dogcom the problem i always have with your views of current history & foreign policy is that you keep comparing present-day circumstances to a mythical paradise. A paradise that would have existed - you seem to be saying - if only all the recent past leaders of the US, canada, western europe & NATO had never existed.
> 
> then you call for retreating into the house & closing the front door, while riots rage outside in the streets & the city is in flames ...
> 
> but i don't agree with this retreat. As others upthread keep pointing out, the situation is increasingly dangerous & complex. No one has any answers. Certainly not moscow - although you do seem to be dazzled by vladimir putin - nor washington nor london.
> 
> dogcom did you ever try getting your complaints across to the DOD via your MP? here in canada every citizen has an excellent opportunity to do this, especially right now while ottawa is in the midst of a giant re-structuring of canadian defence & foreign policy.
> 
> last summer the DOD held community meetings in all big canadian cities, precisely in order to hear from ordinary citizens about the new defence policy it's building. Did you happen to attend one of these ...
> 
> .



Not getting into a hot war with Russia over a pile of rubble which the US caused is going to cause the above. 

Russia is the same as the US and would gladly trade spots and be running all over the middle east and have puppet governments and military bases everywhere I know. So we do have to show strength and make sure they stay in their sandbox for the most part. 

There is no upside to overrunning Syria and putting an even worse piece of crap in power as well as giving ISIS even more room to run around. 

There is a reason dictators run most of the middle east, it is because someone has to keep all the religious nuts and factions in check. Take away the dictators and all you have left is chaos and terrorism as you have witnessed. So just because Hillary says it is a good idea doesn't make it a good idea.

Let me give you an example of the logic some use here.

Scenario 1
Trump: Work with Russia on Syria

Clinton: Get into Syria create a no fly zone and risk world war 3.

Your response is yes do as Hillary says show strength take the risk. Trump is a Russia lover watch out because Russia will now take over the world.

Scenario 2

Clinton says I will work with Russia and let them handle Syria.

Trump says to risk world war 3 and put in the no fly zone and get in to Syria.

Your response would be that Trump is a war monger and is risking the world over the rubble known as Syria. Hillary is right and we must work with Russia and bring down the tension in the world


----------



## andrewf

tygrus said:


> Who said wall? Missiles and ships will do.
> 
> I'm sick of the BS in the world. It cant be fixed no matter how much engagement is done. Even taking over a country doesnt work anymore.
> 
> Fastest way to WW3 is to stick your nose in more places it doesnt belong. I choose disengagement.


Are you American, or do you think America should shut out Canada with missiles and ships, too?


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> japan is a member of NATO? i thought that officially non-aligned is bedrock policy for the land of the rising sun?
> 
> so far, donald trump's pronouncements on NATO seem higgledy-piggledy to me. On the one hand he says that NATO member countries who don't pay their fair share based on national GDP should forfeit all NATO protection. But on the other hand he suggests that the US should turn its back on the 28-member military alliance.
> 
> .


Japan is definitely allied to the US (not a member, but a 'partner' of NATO). Maybe you're thinking of India?


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> If the US implements a safe zone and no fly zone, and populates it with US troops, any incursion would be defended by US military.
> 
> There would be standing orders to intercept and redirect aircraft and shoot them down if they launched an attack.
> 
> The US has maintained and will always maintain, the absolute right to defend their troops.


What gives the right for the US to occupy Syria especially after they have shown the world what a terrible job they have done in the middle east. Russia even though they are bad to, at least has the invitation of Assad the dictator of Syria but still the leader. Western media propaganda dictates whatever it is you want to believe, just like Russian media propaganda does in Russia. So give your head a shake and look at the picture and see how dumb and useless this idea is. Don't forget the US will kill people just like anyone else so there is no high ground here.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> ... So give your head a shake and look at the picture and see how dumb and useless this idea is. Don't forget the US will kill people just like anyone else so there is no high ground here.



dogcom i disagree with quite a few of your remarks but this one (above) is the one that seems the most wildly off course.

the US would not be managing a safe zone in order to kill people. The purpose of a safe zone is to allow aid & rescue operations to commence. Hospitals in Aleppo have been bombed mercilessly. Hospitals have to stand & function in a safe zone. Rescue of injured & dying, provision of water, food, medications, emergency housing, restoration of at least rudimentary hydro - these are the tasks facing the organizers of a safe no-fly zone.

i don't see the US fighting its way in on the ground to create a safe zone all by itself. Ideally the cooperation of russia would ease the operation enormously. Only weeks ago we thought the west had that cooperation. Then suddenly - not sure why - russia began the most intense bombing campaign that had yet been seen in the syrian civil war. It began with a hospital ...

a US president attempting a safe zone campaign would need not just friends & coalition but active support from other countries. Real soldiers, medics, transport workers, translators. That's why i was thinking that possibly one country has signalled it would be *in* if only the US would accept 65,000 refugees from inside its borders.

(cheering thought for hillary clinton, if she will become that president. Vladimir Putin is far more stable & a whole bunch better to deal with than nutbar donald trump, imho) (even though clinton & putin transparently dislike each other)

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The recent Republican stampede for the exits doesn't look good. For a guy who is such a great deal maker Trump does not seem to have made much headway with the Republican party. He is ready to hand them the Presidency on a plate and they turn up their noses. In fact he doesn't seem to have any close friends. Not a good sign for a politician who will have to work with all sorts, in Congress and elsewhere. I can see him ending up like Nixon muttering "I am surrounded by enemies".


----------



## new dog

Humble you already forget that as soon as the US agreed to co operate with Russia they proceeded to immediately bomb Syrian soldiers.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/0...learning-syrian-forces-may-have-been-hit.html

Of course they say it is a mistake but it does make it hard to trust the bumbling US in Syria. So of course it isn't hard to believe the US wouldn't supply rebels while a safe zone is set up. The US is foaming at the mouth to get rid of Assad and it is painfully obvious.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> Hillary only cares about one thing...power and enriching herself.


Allow me to correct that for you-

Donald Trump only cares about one thing... power and enriching himself. (Although technically that is two things- but who's counting?)


----------



## tienmocvietdecor

I think Clinton will win. I advocate her


----------



## new dog

Indexxx he also needs fame, people to idolize him and to be in the spotlight. Just having money or power is not enough for him, otherwise he wouldn't always be on TV.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> If she really is 6 points up. People do lie to polls, and many people that prefer Trump over Hillary will keep it to themselves due to the horrible behavior the left displays to anyone who supports him. His supporters likely include much of the "undecided" as well as even some people who claim they support Hillary.


Not sure if this would qualify as any sort of trend...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...ral_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html#polls


----------



## heyjude

Or Nate Silver's site....

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=2016-forecast-analysis#now


----------



## andrewf

Don't worry guys, it's just the lame stream media lying to you. Trump is really ahead by 15 points.

Of course, the actual vote is going to be rigged to match up with the phony polling.


----------



## olivaw

At this point, it is safe to assume that Trump is done. He doesn't appear to be able to attract moderates and independent voters to his so-called "movement".


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> Don't worry guys, it's just the lame stream media lying to you. Trump is really ahead by 15 points.
> 
> Of course, the actual vote is going to be rigged to match up with the phony polling.


lol!

Crooked Hillary's lying and cheating is unprecedented.


----------



## mordko

Trump's campaign is likely to succeed in its objectives. He will hand both the White House and the Congress to the Democrats.


----------



## sags

Watching the US gong show, makes me think maybe we should leave our political system just the way it is.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Watching the US gong show, makes me think maybe we should leave our political system just the way it is.


Exacty! Every time I catch glimpses of our Canadian media showing snippets of Trump and Hillary going at it, it just wants one to shake their head and exclaim..

"What has happened to America?' Is this current gong show necessary? Is there nobody else in a wealthy nation of almost 325 million that
could take over without accusations/mudslinging and lead the nation for another 4 years? 

Why should the future of the US depend entirely on one of these two?

If the shoe was on the other foot and these two candidates were running for PM of Canada..which one would you be more comfortable with electing?


----------



## mordko

The "future" does not depend on Clinton and Trump. US presidents have more constraints than Canadian Prime Ministers. Unfortunately these will be somewhat undermined if Trump manages to hand the Congress to the Dems as well.


----------



## SMK

This has been a most entertaining thread from those posting the latest poll results, including that of twitter, lol, to the conspiracy theorists.

The winner will probably be the most unpopular president ever, or maybe not if the woman is given a chance.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

When you are born in this world you get a ticket to the freak show. When you are born in America you get a front row seat - George Carlin


----------



## carverman

SMK said:


> This has been a most entertaining thread from those posting the latest poll results, including that of twitter, lol, to the conspiracy theorists.
> 
> The winner will probably be the most unpopular president ever, or maybe not if the woman is given a chance.


If he wins he could join the ranks of the top worst unpopular presidents 
Obama, George W.Bush, Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton , Lyndon Johnson, so it won't be a complete surprise,

So far, no US female citizen has held the post of president but in high ranking political positions, most recently, secretary of state positions have all been held by women..Madeline Albright, Condolezza Rice and Hillary Clinton.

If she wins, it could be very interesting , as all those top generals would have to respect her as their commander-in-chief even if they
don't agree with her decisions. After all, aren't men and women wired differently?


----------



## olivaw

Eric Trump's fundraising email was titled _Momentum_. He said that Trump is on the verge of a blowout victory and used Nate Silver's fivethirtyeight electoral map to prove it. 









The email was only slightly misleading. Eric Trump used the _what-if-only-men-voted_ model.

It used to be that we had to come up with our own humorous commentary for this thread. Now the Trump campaign does that for us too.


----------



## andrewf

The fact that Trump would win men makes me wonder how latent sexism is driving voter behaviour.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> The fact that Trump would win men makes me wonder how latent sexism is driving voter behaviour.


It's hilarious and also sad how 10-year old locker room talk is suddenly more of an issue than Hillary's corruption, failing health, and marriage to a sexual predator.

The very same people that now express outrage over Trump have been totally silent about Bill Clinton for decades...even some women are defending Bill's sexual assaults.

No one does hypocrisy like the Democrats. They have elevated it to an art.


----------



## SMK

carverman said:


> If he wins he could join the ranks of the top worst unpopular presidents
> Obama, George W.Bush, Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton , Lyndon Johnson, so it won't be a complete surprise,
> 
> So far, no US female citizen has held the post of president but in high ranking political positions, most recently, secretary of state positions have all been held by women..Madeline Albright, Condolezza Rice and Hillary Clinton.
> 
> If she wins, it could be very interesting , as all those top generals would have to respect her as their commander-in-chief even if they
> don't agree with her decisions. After all, aren't men and women wired differently?


I meant Clinton when I said she'll be the most *unpopular* president. Trump would be the worst.


----------



## sags

CNN's coverage has become clearly unbalanced and favoring Hillary Clinton.

Rather than news reporting it has a distinctly......"Trump offended our tender feelings" atmosphere to it lately.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> It's hilarious and also sad how 10-year old locker room talk


Confession to. no wait. *bragging* about criminal sexual assualt is not locker room talk in locker rooms or otherwise that I've been in, and I've played a lot of sports, worked construction for decades, and am ex-military.

This misogonyst was a 60 year old man when he bragged about using his position to sexually assault women, and it wasn't a locker room, they were telling another female to get out of the way so they could ogle some more if you listened to the recording.
___



bass player said:


> Hillary's corruption, failing health, and marriage to a sexual predator.


All three claims already debunked upthread.


----------



## gibor365

> During Sunday's U.S. presidential debate, Republican candidate Donald Trump said Canada's "catastrophic" health-care system is prompting Canadians to head south for treatment....
> The report estimates that percentage translates into 45,619 Canadians, slightly lower when compared with the 52,513 who went abroad for medical treatments in 2014, but higher than the 41,838 in 2013....
> "If you've ever noticed the Canadians when they need a big operation when something happens they come into the United States in many cases," Trump said on Sunday. "Because their system is so slow, it's catastrophic in certain ways."


and Trump is very right!

btw, as per RBC analysis , Trump will be good for Canada


----------



## sags

Canada can't afford an on demand health care system, which would have excess resources waiting for patients.

Americans can't afford to pay for their health care system either, so many have no health care at all.

Slow health care is better than no health care at all.

I think Trump is wrong on major operations. Critical care is prioritized first, which creates the wait times for non critical care.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> All three claims already debunked upthread.


Some people chose not to believe what many already know, but that doesn't make it debunked.


----------



## mrPPincer

Knowing without evidence or contrary to evidence is somewhat similar to belief isn't it?
Go with the dogma if you have to, it's your choice.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Knowing without evidence or contrary to evidence is somewhat similar to belief isn't it?
> Go with the dogma if you have to, it's your choice.


Yes, and it works both ways. Trump is guilty of nothing but locker room talk, yet most people here act like he's a convicted sex offender. 

On the other hand, Hillary has lied on camera several times, mysteriously passed out several times (one of them was caught on camera), and is married to a person who paid $850,000 to one of the women he sexually assaulted.

As you said...go with the dogma if you have to, it's your choice. But, don't expect me to buy into the BS.


----------



## andrewf

If you think it is such a problem that Hillary has lied, how do you reconcile yourself to the fact that Trump lies constantly?


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> If you think it is such a problem that Hillary has lied, how do you reconcile yourself to the fact that Trump lies constantly?


Trump lies on occasion to boost his image. Hillary lies to cover her criminal actions.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mrPPincer said:


> Confession to. no wait. *bragging* about criminal sexual assualt is not locker room talk in locker rooms or otherwise that I've been in, and I've played a lot of sports, worked construction for decades, and am ex-military.
> 
> This misogonyst was a 60 year old man when he bragged about using his position to sexually assault women, and it wasn't a locker room, they were telling another female to get out of the way so they could ogle some more if you listened to the recording.
> ___
> 
> 
> All three claims already debunked upthread.


You should listen to the tape. I did and I heard Donald Trump brag about trying to seduce a married woman by taking her furniture shopping. He struck out. Then he went on to say in Hollywood women throw themselves at stars. This is hardly news. The rest was banter and trash talk.

It struck me as the lamest Hollywood sex scandal ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY8FwWwIVyQ


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Trump lies on occasion to boost his image. Hillary lies to cover her criminal actions.


'On occassion'? He lies every few sentences.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> 'On occassion'? He lies every few sentences.


Hillary lies all the time, and she does so to hide her criminal actions. For some reason, that doesn't seem to bother you. Are you a hypocrite?


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> CNN's coverage has become clearly unbalanced and favoring Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Rather than news reporting it has a distinctly......"Trump offended our tender feelings" atmosphere to it lately.


Two months ago I thought that CNN was neutral but they are becoming increasingly hostile towards Trump. 

There is a liberal media bias feel to it but there may be more to it than that. Perhaps they believe that the Trump campaign is trying to play them for fools. They ask about the tape and the Trump side accuses Hillary Clinton of being America's Karla Homolka. They ask about the tax returns and the Trump surrogates bring up the missing emails as if they were a stolen national treasure. Talk about the business losses and they claim the Clinton Foundation is a money laundering operation. 

Or it may just be a calculation to distance themselves from Trump due to his toxicity. 

Interestingly, RedState and Glenn Beck are also firmly against Trump. 

LOL, perhaps we have to watch Fox News for "fair and balanced" discussion by Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly. Or listen to Rush.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Hillary lies all the time, and she does so to hide her criminal actions. For some reason, that doesn't seem to bother you. Are you a hypocrite?


All politicians lie but Hillary is caught in fewer lies than average. In fact, she is almost as honest as Obama. 

It has been objectively determined that Trump is the most dishonest presidential candidate since Richard Nixon. The thing about Trump is that he doesn't actually care about truth. To him, words are just something you use to achieve an objective.

ETA: The PolitiFact chart below compares Clinton to Trump.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Canada can't afford an on demand health care system, which would have excess resources waiting for patients.
> 
> Americans can't afford to pay for their health care system either, so many have no health care at all.
> 
> Slow health care is better than no health care at all.
> 
> I think Trump is wrong on major operations. Critical care is prioritized first, which creates the wait times for non critical care.


Comparison was done not only vs US, but vs 10 other developed countries, majority of them have universal health care


> According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 70 per cent of Canadian doctors said they thought their patients often experienced long wait times to see a specialist, the highest out of the 10 countries compared in the study.
> 
> The number is well below the average in comparative countries, but has improved from 75 per cent in 2009.
> 
> The average of Canada, New Zealand, Germany, Australia, Sweden, Norway, the U.K., the U.S., the Netherlands and Switzerland was 45 per cent, with Switzerland being the lowest at nine per cent.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-tourists-drop-1.3800729


----------



## olivaw

I have mixed feelings about our health care. It is excellent if you are in critical condition. know from personal experience.

Non critical services take too long. The medical system substitutes drug therapies as an interim solution to keep patients alive or comfortable while they wait for needed services such as MRIs, CT Scans, surgery etc. The wait can be months. I've experienced this too and it is frustrating. 

In Alberta, it is legal to pay for MRI's and CT scans.

People are sometimes compelled to game the system. A friend was so frustrated by the wait to see his cardiologist that he showed up at the ER complaining of angina. It was a smart move. They sent him for immediate tests and found a problem.

Trump is exaggerating about Canadians using the US system en-masse but he is not telling a pants-on-fire lie. A few wealthy Canadians will pay for immediate treatment in the United States to avoid wait times.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Hillary lies all the time, and she does so to hide her criminal actions. For some reason, that doesn't seem to bother you. Are you a hypocrite?


I'm not the one complaining about politician dishonesty. The public don't want honest politicians, witness the lying liars they nominated.


----------



## sags

The Donald Trump rally road song............


----------



## sags

Some wealthy Canadians also donate considerable amounts of money to improve our health services.

I wouldn't expect Donald Trump donates a lot to health services in the US, since he doesn't even pay taxes, and spends money donated by others to his charitable foundation buying pictures of himself.

I wonder if his picture is like Ben Carson's portrait..........with Jesus hand on his shoulder.


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> It's hilarious and also sad how 10-year old locker room talk is suddenly more of an issue than Hillary's corruption, failing health, and marriage to a sexual predator.
> 
> The very same people that now express outrage over Trump have been totally silent about Bill Clinton for decades...even some women are defending Bill's sexual assaults.
> 
> No one does hypocrisy like the Democrats. They have elevated it to an art.



I have noticed this also, it seems Hillary or Bill or whoever as long as they are democrat get a free ride with some people. I look at situations and then go with what I think is right rather then if a democrat says it is so then it is so. 

Do you realize that Putin has told all students abroad that they should come home immediately. Then you have the French president saying he should be up on war crimes and so on. Well many leaders in the world from the US to Saudi Arabia should be up for war crimes. It sure sounds like the west is looking for a war with Russia and some forum buddies think this isn't a concern because Hillary says so.

I wonder how our portfolios will look if we get into a devastating world war which can easily be avoided. So many Dems were against the Vietnam war because they were drafted but don't care now because they don't think they will need to fight or are over here where it is safe so they think. It does boggle the mind the way some of them think.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> I wonder if [Trump's] picture is like Ben Carson's portrait..........with Jesus hand on his shoulder.


I doubt it. Trump doesn't like to share the spotlight.


----------



## sags

LOL...........


----------



## indexxx

gibor365 said:


> and Trump is very right!
> 
> btw, as per RBC analysis , Trump will be good for Canada


So having said that, would you rather not have the provincial health care we enjoy in Canada or similar styles in may European countries?


----------



## gibor365

indexxx said:


> So having said that, would you rather not have the provincial health care we enjoy in Canada or similar styles in may European countries?


I'd rather have "similar styles in may European countries" or even in Israel, that is much more efficient than in Canada


----------



## sags

President Obama addresses Alex Jones statement that he and Hillary are demons who smell like sulphur.


----------



## sags

President Obama on how the Republicans ended up with Trump.

Barrack Obama weaves a story that few others, and he and Joe Biden look like they are really enjoying themselves.

Of course, Trump is giving them lots of material to work with.


----------



## sags

Name the States......

http://www.ironicsans.com/state22.html

Locate them on a map.....

http://www.addictinggames.com/puzzle-games/50states.jsp


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> President Obama addresses Alex Jones statement that he and Hillary are demons who smell like sulphur.



On the debate I saw a fly land on Hillary's eye brow and remember pointing and laughing at it.

Not thinking anything of it I later on saw an article like this. This isn't the exact article but you will definitely get a laugh out of it.

http://liberaldarkness.com/2016/10/...s-on-hillary-clinton-to-signal-americas-doom/


----------



## heyjude

As a woman, I find this account quite credible.

http://people.com/politics/donald-trump-attacked-people-writer/


----------



## olivaw

^This rings true to me too and I am not even a woman. It's consistent with the tape and his other behaviour. There are numerous other allegations against Trump coming out.


----------



## carverman

olivaw said:


> ^This rings true to me too and I am not even a woman. It's consistent with the tape and his other behaviour. There are numerous other allegations against Trump coming out.


On the CTV morning news, I heard that THREE more women have now come forward, stating that the Donald had groped or kissed them improperly without consent.
One was on a first class flight 30 years ago, another 13 years ago. 
She claimed "he was like an octopus..hands everywhere" and she had to leave the first class area of the plane. 



> At least four more women came forward Wednesday alleging Donald Trump groped them, as the Trump campaign vowed a scorched-earth plan to unveil new sexual misconduct accusations against Bill Clinton over the final weeks of the presidential campaign.
> 
> “We’re going to turn him into Bill Cosby,” Trump campaign manager Steve Bannon



This is starting to sound similar to the Bill Cosby exploits a few years back, where the victims of his molestation didn't come forward immediately, but recently when enough of them felt confident enough to hire a lawyer to represent them. 

Trump is not a person who should be in the presidents seat with all these allegations of sexual impropriety. Even if this is the result
of digging up more dirt on your opponent in their see-saw battle to discredit each other, 

it just doesn't look good for the US in the eyes of the world.


----------



## SMK

Of course NOW women would come forward, it was to be expected and probably most are telling the truth like in the Cosby case.

The Stoynoff accusation is completely believable, what is not, is that the woman and seasoned journalist of 20 years (not a young girl) chose to keep quiet for professional or whatever other reasons. Why indeed didn't she slap him for the unwanted kiss, why did she question herself if she had been at fault when she had done nothing to provoke him, and why did her self-esteem "crash to zero" over an unwanted kiss?


----------



## heyjude

SMK said:


> Of course NOW women would come forward, it was to be expected and probably most are telling the truth like in the Cosby case.
> 
> The Stoynoff accusation is completely believable, what is not, is that the woman and seasoned journalist of 20 years (not a young girl) chose to keep quiet for professional or whatever other reasons. Why indeed didn't she slap him for the unwanted kiss, why did she question herself if she had been at fault when she had done nothing to provoke him, and why did her self-esteem "crash to zero" over an unwanted kiss?


Many women hesitate to come forward with allegations of sexual harassment in the workplace because of fear of losing their jobs or being discredited as weak and unable to roll with the punches. We've seen it at the CBC when Ghomeshi was prowling. 

During my career I was never personally harassed, but I witnessed others being harassed and went to HR on their behalf. Thankfully, HR intervened. I worked in healthcare, where the workplace culture is relatively civilized, but in many fields, it's brutal out there.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> ^This rings true to me too and I am not even a woman. It's consistent with the tape and his other behaviour. There are numerous other allegations against Trump coming out.


Yup...only the women who complain about Trump are to be believed, while every single woman who complained about Bill Clinton is a liar, lol.

Hey olivaw...did you know they took the word "gullible" out of the dictionary??


----------



## SMK

Heyjude I get the not coming forward part, what I don't understand is why didn't she do something so instinctively as slapping the man, or at the very least tell him off? It was awful and scary what Trump allegedly did to her, but doing nothing is not acceptable, not in her particular case anyway.


----------



## mordko

Melania and the kids must be feeling SO good. They are in a great position to tell us if the money really can buy happiness.


----------



## mordko

SMK said:


> Heyjude I get the not coming forward part, what I don't understand is why didn't she do something so instinctively as slapping the man, or at the very least tell him off? It was awful and scary what Trump allegedly did to her, but doing nothing is not acceptable, not in her particular case anyway.


He is a big guy, they had been friendly, she was in shock and Trump's pregnant wife was about to come in.


----------



## SMK

carverman said:


> This is starting to sound similar to the Bill Cosby exploits a few years back, where the victims of his molestation didn't come forward immediately, but recently when enough of them felt confident enough to hire a lawyer to represent them.


From what we conclusively know so far, Trump and Bill Clinton are sexual predators, hardly just philanderers when they used their power to exploit women. 

Cosby is an alleged serial rapist who drugged women first. All 3 men have a common denominator, but I believe the Trump and Clinton's rape allegations to be false.


----------



## SMK

mordko said:


> He is a big guy, they had been friendly, she was in shock and Trump's pregnant wife was about to come in.


I get that too, but as per the story, she never told him off, not even by phone. She could have said something if not publicly then privately. I view Cosby's victims, who were allegedly drugged, very differently.


----------



## andrewf

SMK said:


> Heyjude I get the not coming forward part, what I don't understand is why didn't she do something so instinctively as slapping the man, or at the very least tell him off? It was awful and scary what Trump allegedly did to her, but doing nothing is not acceptable, not in her particular case anyway.


Victim blaming?


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Victim blaming?


That's exactly what Hillary did to Bill's victims.


----------



## mordko

@ SMK - what she is describing as an aftermath sounds like a depression to my non-expert mind. And taking on a celebrity with hundreds of lawyers behind him is psychologically tough at best of times.


----------



## SMK

If you were attacked andrewf you would let the person get away with it, and do nothing when you could have? Granted it's not always possible.


----------



## SMK

mordko said:


> @ SMK - what she is describing as an aftermath sounds like a depression to my non-expert mind. And taking on a celebrity with hundreds of lawyers behind him is psychologically tough at best of times.


I get that too. But not all cases require lawyers and lawsuits either. Trump would have settled this case out of court if the woman would have threatened him.

Women have a role and responsibility in not allowing others to victimize them.


----------



## mordko

In the 1980s Britain grabbing a girl by the *** in a work place (or worse) was routine. Didn't see that myself but talked to a bunch of women who went through it. Sometimes they would slap a guy, sometimes not. It was all part of the culture, something they had to accept if they wanted to work. Thankfully things have changed for the better.


----------



## mordko

SMK said:


> I get that too. But not all cases require lawyers and lawsuits either. Trump would have settled this case out of court if the woman would have threatened him.
> 
> Women have a role and responsibility in not allowing others to victimize them.


Everyone decides for themselves. it's tough though.

Here is another example... HP spreads obvious blood libel in this forum. Lots of people read it. How many people make as much as a peep?


----------



## wraphter

mordko said:


> Melania and the kids must be feeling SO good. They are in a great position to tell us if the money really can buy happiness.


I find it hard to believe that Bill Clinton has been faithful to Hillary since he was president. I wonder what he is thinking:
*'When are they going to start digging up new dirt on me?'* Both Bill and Hillary are hypocrites who present a facade to the 
public that is far from the truth. She allowed Bill to cheat on her. It was the price she was willing to pay so that
she could have a chance to be famous. 

The political process becomes self-involved and inward looking once a juicy sexual scandal commands the spotlight.
The real issues--the economy, foreign relations etc. recede into the background and loose their salience.

This is not a good thing. It is dysfunctional. It is what happened during the Clinton impeachment fiasco. I wonder whether Hillary will be a dysfunctional president mired in internal scandal. She already is involved in a self-made scandal,namely using her own server for her emails. Maybe this scandal is just a prelude to scandals that will occur when she is president.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

30 years, not a peep. A month before the election all the dirt comes out. How convenient. The same day more Podesta emails come out. Wonder how many accusers are Democrats connected to the Hillary campaign? We already know the journalists have their marching orders. And 2 of the accusers are on record as Hillary supporters.

Trump's lawyers have already sent a letter to the New York Times demanding a retraction and apology and threatening a libel suit. I predict they will print a retraction. Buried in the back of the paper the day after the election. The way they did with McCain in 2009.


----------



## new dog

Wikileaks has sent out another pile of e-mails so I am sure it is all hush, hush by the mainstream media. Or they will give it a light comment but not dig into it. If the Wikileaks dump was on Trump the media would go over it with a fine tooth comb and blast him with every ounce of energy they have. Of course the Hillary backers here and elsewhere would never see it this way because the truth is unimportant to them.


----------



## new dog

To tell you the truth Hillary doesn't have to answer to anything including here policies. If she said the way to deal with homelessness is to dump them in the river, I am sure Hillary backers would say if that is what she thinks is right, then it must be a good idea. I remember a reporter telling stupid people that Obama just nuked Russia and killed everyone in the country. Their reply was that if Obama thought it needed to be done then it was probably a good idea.


----------



## andrewf

So far, wikileaks' october surprise email dump hasn't yielding anything surprising or particularly damaging. A political campaign was being run like a modern political campaign. Nothing in it would be too surprising coming from the CPC or LPC here in Canada. The campaigns try to manipulate the media? Heavens no!


----------



## SMK

All the dirt is coming out now because unbelievably the candidates were tied for too long. It's pure desperation at this point as election day is less than a month away.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> So far, wikileaks' october surprise email dump hasn't yielding anything surprising or particularly damaging. A political campaign was being run like a modern political campaign. Nothing in it would be too surprising coming from the CPC or LPC here in Canada. The campaigns try to manipulate the media? Heavens no!


In reality, the media is trying to manipulate the public.

If Hillary had dropped dead during the last debate, the headline the next day likely would have been "Hillary resting comfortably after debate"


----------



## andrewf

Speaking of which, how are people accounting for the fact that Hillary hasn't dropped dead yet, given how feeble and near-to-death she is? 

All media have biases. And let's not try to pretend there isn't a conservative media that manipulates the truth to support their agenda. FOX News is more egregious than any other outlet. Never mind the Alex Jones/Rush Limbaugh crowd. Apparently, democrats are now literally the spawn of satan, and reek of brimstone.


----------



## new dog

This is where we use our own minds. If I just believe everything Alex Jones says for example I would be no better then the mainstream media worshipers. Syria for me is a great example of how the media and politicians are trying to direct the public into something very stupid to distract us from something. It could be to stop the election or it could be used to blame for a banking meltdown starting in Europe or whatever. I just find it odd that the rhetoric has become so heated over Syria and Putin and escalating more and more each day. 

If the public came out and said no we will not support any action in Syria and stay out of it what would happen. Nothing would happen and life would go on. Of course Syria has already been destroyed by western backed rebels fighting Assad so that part won't change.


----------



## Eder

Ya, I tried it but never inhaled!


----------



## olivaw

How convenient for the Trump campaign that his supporters disbelieve the independent media. Trump can say anything. His adoring fans will accept it as Trump truth.


----------



## sags

Trump is a pig. Bill Clinton is a pig.

Bill Clinton's escapades were revealed 30 years ago and voters made their choice at that time.

Donad Trump's escapades are being made known now............and voters have to make their choice today.


----------



## sags

_If the public came out and said no we will not support any action in Syria and stay out of it what would happen. Nothing would happen and life would go on. Of course Syria has already been destroyed by western backed rebels fighting Assad so that part won't change._

What would happen if the US removed itself completely is that Putin would keep pushing into new territory.

Crimea, Syria.............what would be next ?

President Obama said that Russia is going to bury itself in a quagmire in the Middle East. He doesn't want American troops as an occupying force in the region, especially in countries that don't want them there. Iraq didn't want Americans there and was the main reason the US troops were withdrawn. The American people do not support a massive involvement of US troops in the ME. For all the personal attacks on Obama..........including a supposed "weakness" in foreign policy, he remains the highest rated President leaving office and his personal ratings are still climbing. Americans agree with the manner that Obama has conducted foreign affairs.

A safe/no fly zone would be established in a small geographical area of Syria, perhaps around the city of Aleppo.

It would provide a safe haven for Syrians who managed to get there.

It would be defended by the US military, and if Putin can't resist the temptation to attack US troops, Russia will pay the price.

The US has served notice to Putin they will no longer tolerate Russian aircraft buzzing US war ships. The US navy was attacked by missiles coming from Yemen the other day. The missiles missed the target and landed in the sea, and the US launched an attack to destroy the radar facilities used to direct the attacks. The US didn't miss their targets.

It is up to Putin how far this hostility goes. The US has made it perfectly clear to him they will defend themselves.

One of the reasons Putin has suddenly become more antagonistic is to distract the Russian population away from a very weak Russian economy. It is puny compared to the US economy and has been in steep decline. Economic conditions in Russia are becoming grave and affect the day to day lives of Russians.

Putin believes he can manipulate Donald Trump. He knows that he can't manipulate Hillary Clinton.

Putin wants Trump to win the Presidency for his own purposes.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> Trump is a pig. Bill Clinton is a pig.
> 
> Bill Clinton's escapades were revealed 30 years ago and voters made their choice at that time.
> 
> Donad Trump's escapades are being made known now............and voters have to make their choice today.


If you are wondering how likely the stories are remember Donald is married to a supermodel and Bill has Hillary waiting at home.


----------



## olivaw

There's no need to guess about Bill Clinton. We spent years examining the sex scandals. Special prosecutor Kenneth Starr investigated. There was a senate hearing, Clinton was acquitted. 

We don't know the truth about Trump so we have to make an educated guess. He says creepy things. He had a very public affair with Marla Maples. Many who have worked with him (and aren't subject to gag contracts) describe him as an arrogant jerk. He bragged about unwanted kissing and groping. Women have accused him of unwanted kissing and groping. Theres a matter in the NY Court.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Some VERY powerful people have spent millions on the Clintons over the years and if Trump wins, that investment becomes a dead loss. It is only logical that they do everything they can to push their candidate over the finish line. Trump does not have that kind of support because he doesn't have that kind of campaign contributors.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> There's no need to guess about Bill Clinton. We spent years examining the sex scandals. Special prosecutor Kenneth Starr investigated. There was a senate hearing, Clinton was acquitted.
> 
> We don't know the truth about Trump so we have to make an educated guess. He says creepy things. He had a very public affair with Marla Maples. Many who have worked with him (and aren't subject to gag contracts) describe him as an arrogant jerk. He bragged about unwanted kissing and groping. Women have accused him of unwanted kissing and groping. Theres a matter in the NY Court.


Clinton was also disbarred for lying under oath.


----------



## olivaw

We know all about Bill Clinton. Millions of government and donated dollars were spent to discredit him. He was found guilty of lying about his two affair in the Senate hearing. He was acquitted on the charge of sexual misconduct. It was decades ago. 

The preponderance of evidence suggest that there is something creepy about Donald Trump. He's not just an adulterer. He's a sexual predator. Some of the allegations includes underage girls. 

In the end, the important thing is - Bill Clinton is not running for president. Trump is.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Trump is a pig. Bill Clinton is a pig.
> 
> Bill Clinton's escapades were revealed 30 years ago and voters made their choice at that time.
> 
> Donad Trump's escapades are being made known now............and voters have to make their choice today.


That's right...Democrat voters made a choice 30 years ago to turn a blind eye to Clinton's behavior and happily voted him into office. Those very same people today who gave Slick Willy a free pass now expect us to believe that they are disgusted with Trump for the lesser transgression of locker room talk. 

No one with working brain cells buys that BS. People see through the selective outrage and hypocrisy.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Clinton was also disbarred for lying under oath.


James Comey learned from that and that's why he chose to question Hillary without putting her under oath. The fix was in right from the start.


----------



## sags

I question some of these latest accusations against Trump, specifically the ones that occurred in first class in an airplane.

If Trump and the woman were sitting beside each other, one can presume the first class section was full. Otherwise they would have sat in open seats.........I would think. The woman said she was sitting in economy and the stewardess said she could move up to the first class section as they had an open seat there. That would be very unusual as I don't think it is common for people to be moved into the first class section from economy simply because there is a vacant seat. Did Trump target and invite the woman ?

Where were all the other passengers while this groping took place ?

I have never been in first class, so it is possible to grope people without anyone else observing ?

The woman's description that Trump could grope around "upstairs" and she would have not been too disturbed about that, but drew the line when he put his hand up her skirt....is a little weird.

I know women were often unable or unwilling to come forward on such complaints years ago, but in that circumstance any kind of reaction from her would have been noticed by fellow passengers.

If her story is true, it also calls attention to Trump's groper desires. Are they so strong he would do it in public ?

That would certainly question his ability to control his emotions.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> We know all about Bill Clinton. Millions of government and donated dollars were spent to discredit him. He was found guilty of lying about his two affair in the Senate hearing. He was acquitted on the charge of sexual misconduct. It was decades ago.
> 
> The preponderance of evidence suggest that there is something creepy about Donald Trump. He's not just an adulterer. He's a sexual predator. Some of the allegations includes underage girls.
> 
> In the end, the important thing is - Bill Clinton is not running for president. Trump is.


Bill Clinton also had allegations of underage girls levied against him, and his many trips to pedophile Jeffrey Epstein's private island that was stocked with young girls are well known.

Bill isn't running...but Hillary is still married to him, and that is a reflection of her character, and of how much she is willing to sell out her morals to cash in on his name.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> That's right...Democrat voters made a choice 30 years ago to turn a blind eye to Clinton's behavior and happily voted him into office. Those very same people today who gave Slick Willy a free pass now expect us to believe that they are disgusted with Trump for the lesser transgression of locker room talk.
> 
> No one with working brain cells buys that BS. People see through the selective outrage and hypocrisy.


Bill Clinton also went on to turn a disastrous economy into a growing economy, creating millions of jobs and a budget surplus.

Maybe voters thought the trade off............Slick Willy for good governance was worth it ?

Bill Clinton also retained very high popularity ratings after he left office.

Does that mean voters don't care a whole lot about the sexual escapades of their politicians ?


----------



## sags

Personally I wouldn't vote for Trump if he had spent his life as a secluded monk.

His policies would be a disaster, both economically and in foreign affairs.


----------



## mordko

Internet/technology caused a boom in the 90s. Did Bill Clinton invent the internet? Wasn't it Al Gore?


----------



## sags

Maybe millions of Americans don't care about sexual things..........considering their own propensities.

Porn is the most searched, viewed and valuable space on the internet.........hmmm.

Maybe people remember a few nights in their own home....Ethel get out your whip. I have been bad and it is flogging time again.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> Internet/technology caused a boom in the 90s. Did Bill Clinton invent the internet? Wasn't it Al Gore?


Al Gore isn't running for president either.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> Maybe millions of Americans don't care about sexual things..........considering their own propensities.


They don't care about sexual indiscretions. Trump had a public affair with Marla Maples but nobody held that against him. The tape, followed by Trump's non-apology and the publicity stunt with the women put sexual assault at the centre of the campaign.


----------



## mrPPincer

sags said:


> Name the States......
> 
> http://www.ironicsans.com/state22.html
> 
> Locate them on a map.....
> 
> http://www.addictinggames.com/puzzle-games/50states.jsp


Thanks for the links


----------



## sags

Sometimes it feels like there are two ships passing each other in the dead of night.

One ship is the Politically Correct, and the passengers are trying their best to educate people and lift culture out of the dark waters.

The other ship is Human Nature, and the passengers are steeped in the most basic drivers of human psyche.

The passengers yell and hoot at each other on the way past....turn the ships around and have another go at it.


----------



## sags

mrPPincer said:


> Thanks for the links


They are a fun way to learn about the US.

I found that memorizing the names alphabetically was the best way for me. You soon learn the pattern.

(d)delaware.....(e)... (f)florida....(g)georgia.....(h)hawaii....(i)idaho, illinois, indiana, iowa.......and so on.


----------



## olivaw

Tweeted 12 minutes ago by Josh Marshall (just some random dude). 



> It does seem like Trump wants to help political science by running a controlled experiment where a candidate gets zero votes from women.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> There's no need to guess about Bill Clinton. We spent years examining the sex scandals. Special prosecutor Kenneth Starr investigated. There was a senate hearing, Clinton was acquitted.


He was acquitted after a trial on impeachment charges passed by the House of Representatives. It was not merely a hearing.
He lied about his conduct under oath and that is what got him in trouble.So years and years of investigations and millions
of dollars were spent and the time and effort of the nation and government were devoted to solving this 
problem created by Bill Clinton.The work of governing the nation was neglected in this fixation on the sex life of Bill. 

He is a liar ,plain and simple and what kind of woman would remain married to such a person?
Obviously one who is expert at pulling the wool over her own eyes. She is as dishonest as her husband. What Bill did and what she tolerated says volumes about her honesty or lack thereof.

Bill Clinton is still getting into trouble. He visited the Attorney General Loretta Lynch on her plane on the tarmac. 
He said that Obamacare was crazy. He seems determined to embarrass her. He is real liability to her campaign.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Internet/technology caused a boom in the 90s. Did Bill Clinton invent the internet? Wasn't it Al Gore?


The only people who mockingly say Al Gore invented the Internet are the Republican base. It's part of a misrepresentation and smear campaign that is pretty classless.

Al Gore never said that.

He said he was part of the group that created the Internet. Specifically, he was talking about the legislation which moved the technology out of the ARPA context and into the public and commercial space.

When mis-quoted and taken out of context, it sounds pretty horrendous. This is the case with so many right wing lies. We all know they are lies. I suspect even those saying them know they are lies. ... and yet we have learned the same people will just keep repeating the same old crap.

The Republican base would still be saying Obama is a Kenyan terrorist Muslim, if they didn't know it hurts their poll numbers.

There are so many issues to discuss. It's a shame a relatively low percentage of low-brow people are dominating the conversation with ridiculous drivel.


----------



## sags

Maybe Hillary just loves him, for better or worse.

Or, maybe Hillary is a member of a vanguard of women who honor their wedding vows and stick it out through good times and bad, sickness and health..........


----------



## carverman

SMK said:


> From what we conclusively know so far, Trump and Bill Clinton are sexual predators, hardly just philanderers when they used their power to exploit women.
> 
> Cosby is an alleged serial rapist who drugged women first. All 3 men have a common denominator, but I believe the Trump and Clinton's rape allegations to be false.


So was Ghomesi. Given the opportunity and the right circumstances, all three would certainly be inclined drop down to the next level of groping, which could lead to rape, holding a very important position. 
Bill Clinton did it right in the White House with intern Monica Lewinsky. The "Blue Dress" was part of the controversy surroundin the scandal

From Wiki: Bill said: 


> Now, I have to go back to work on my State of the Union speech. And I worked on it until pretty late last night. But I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again: *I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.* I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false. And I need to go back to work for the American people. Thank you.[25]





> For the next several months and through the summer, the media debated whether an affair had occurred and whether Clinton had lied or obstructed justice, *but nothing could be definitively established beyond the taped recordings because Lewinsky was unwilling to discuss the affair or testify about it. *
> On July 28, 1998, a substantial delay after the public break of the scandal, Lewinsky received transactional immunity in exchange for grand jury testimony concerning her relationship with Clinton.[26] *She also turned over a semen-stained blue dress (that Linda Tripp had encouraged her to save without dry cleaning) to the Starr investigators, thereby providing unambiguous DNA evidence that could prove the relationship despite Clinton's official denials.*[27]


Bill Clinton (Democrat) came very close to being impeached by the House of Representatives (mostly Republican )but the Senate (mostly Democrats)voted to drop the perjury and obstruction of justice charges against Bill so he got away with it. 

I wonder if this is the dirt that Trump is trying to dig up on Hilliary Clinton's husband for these debates?


----------



## wraphter

new dog said:


> Of course Syria has already been destroyed by western backed rebels fighting Assad so that part won't change.


What about Assad's barrel bombs filled with nails and chlorine gas ?


----------



## sags

Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinski had consensual sex. It wasn't right, but it was consensual between two adults.


----------



## sags

The old saying used to be..........even if you are caught going out the window without your pants on..........deny, deny, deny.

I am not here..............is better than nothing I suppose.

Bill Clinton denied until he couldn't anymore and then said........okay, I did it.

And America shrugged.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Media to voters: Drop dead, we're getting Hillary elected

Kerry Jackson, Investor's Business Daily

Everybody knew it, and now it's being confirmed by the emails that are being dumped: The media are a wing of the Democratic Party and are doing all they can to rig the election for Hillary Clinton.

A profession that at one time prided itself on the pursuit of evenhanded truth took a turn some time ago. Eventually, the media's mask of objectivity and balance began to slip. Now it's completely off, revealing one ugly mug of bias.

Let's start with the New York Times, that Gray Lady with a heart black with dishonesty. Emails released by WikiLeaks show that Times reporter Mark Leibovich allowed the Clinton campaign to decide which quotations from Clinton that he could and couldn't use in his Times-published work.

Clinton's communications director Jennifer Palmieri closed one email with Leibovich by telling him it was a "pleasure doing business."

Then there's John Harwood, the Times contributor and CNBC correspondent who moderated the Republican presidential debate one year ago. He provided the Clinton camp with tips and bragged about how good it felt to provoke Donald Trump during the debate.
Get instant access to exclusive stock lists and powerful tools on Investors.com. Try us free for 4 weeks.

He told John Podesta, Clinton's campaign chairman, to "watch out" for Dr. Ben Carson because he "could give you real trouble in a general" election.

Donna Brazile, a known Democratic operative, has also been implicated. While a contributor at CNN, she forwarded the Clinton campaign a question she knew was coming in a town hall setting. How did she get that question? From inside CNN. Where else?

"From time to time I get the questions in advance," she told Palmieri earlier this year.

When pressed, Brazile naturally denied that she had shared the question.

On the job for the Democrats as well is Univision Chairman Haim Saban. He urged the Clinton campaign to hit Trump harder for the comments he made about Mexicans when he announced his candidacy. Palmieri took the advice as any cooperative colleague would.

"Haim is right," she wrote, "we should be jamming this all the time."

Clinton got top-notch service from the Boston Globe, too, when Op-Ed page editor Marjorie Pritchard emailed Podesta, suggesting the best timing for placement of a piece from the Clinton campaign.

"It would be good to get it in on Tuesday, when she is in New Hampshire. That would give her big presence on Tuesday with the piece and on Wednesday with the news story," Pritchard told Podesta.

Of course in a presidential campaign, it helps to have sycophantic accessories in the media, and Hillary certainly has those.

Consider the role played by MSNBC producer Sheara Braun. She gushed to the Clinton campaign that the candidate was an "amazing, intelligent woman" while pitching a feature about "Hillary Clinton for Millennials."

The media would never do any of this for a Republican. Well, there is an exception. They would pump a particular GOP candidate during the primaries if they knew that candidate would be more vulnerable than others in the general election campaign.

Once achieved, they could then tear down the Republican while maintaining their supportive work for the opposition.

As good Democrats, they would see it as their duty. As good Democrats, this is actually what they've done.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> He was acquitted after a trial on impeachment charges passed by the House of Representatives. It was not merely a hearing.
> He lied about his conduct under oath and that is what got him in trouble.So years and years of investigations and millions
> of dollars were spent and the time and effort of the nation and government were devoted to solving this
> problem created by Bill Clinton.The work of governing the nation was neglected in this fixation on the sex life of Bill.
> 
> He is a liar ,plain and simple and what kind of woman would remain married to such a person?
> Obviously one who is expert at pulling the wool over her own eyes. She is as dishonest as her husband. What Bill did and what she tolerated says volumes about her honesty or lack thereof.
> 
> Bill Clinton is still getting into trouble. He visited the Attorney General Loretta Lynch on her plane on the tarmac.
> He said that Obamacare was crazy. He seems determined to embarrass her. He is real liability to her campaign.


Sorry, you are wrong. Impeachment hearings are initiated by the House of Representatives but it is the Senate that conducts the hearing. Bill Clinton was acquitted by the Senate. 

Should Hillary Clinton should be judged on her husband's affair(s)? Should she have divorced Bill? Polling suggests that most Americans found her conduct during and after the revelations about her husband to be admirable. You disagree, it seems.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinski had consensual sex. It wasn't right, but it was consensual between two adults.


Yes, maybe it was consensual, but he denied it and lied and perjured himself on the stand.
That was what the fuss was all about more than his indiscretions in the OVAL OFFICE (the president's office).
He narrowly escaped impeachment but for a narrow vote from the Senate (democrats).

Hillary kept quiet during the times of his trial.

There have been numerous sex scandals in the US government over the years..too many to mention.

I would prefer to hear why Hillary decided to let some of her emails while she was secretary of state why she switched email accounts
and allowed all those emails on her secure blackberry email account to "disappear". Was it because she hated technology and
wanted to simply her emails or something else more sinister?

On March 18, 2009, Hillary Clinton stopped using her longstanding email, <*******blackberry.net>, and switched to a new account: <h***@cl*ntonemail.com>. When she switched accounts, all of her old email disappeared—i*including all of the email from her first seven weeks as secretary of state. To date, neither Clinton nor the FBI have located any of her email from that period.*

Trump wants to put her on trial.. that is...if he can stop groping long enough to become president he may be on to something behind
his veiled threat.


----------



## tygrus

The clintons dont have a marriage. That was blown apart 35 yrs ago. What they have is an economic and political partnership. Dont think Bill isnt salivating at staying in the white house again? He will be a defactor advisor. It really is an election about him too.


----------



## new dog

wraphter said:


> What about Assad's barrel bombs filled with nails and chlorine gas ?


Anything is possible on all sides including the US. Just stay out of that garbage heap and to sags we should be putting are hardline outside of Syria telling Russia we won't tolerate aggression outside of Syria. That is simple to do and the world tension will drop and if not at least the US will have the high ground and support from around the world.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> The old saying used to be..........even if you are caught going out the window without your pants on..........deny, deny, deny.
> 
> I am not here..............is better than nothing I suppose.
> 
> Bill Clinton denied until he couldn't anymore and then said........okay, I did it.
> 
> And America shrugged.


Shrugged? Really?

The reaction was a huge scandal that went on for years and absorbed the energy and concentration of the government and the populace.
It was completely dysfunctional.

Bill Clinton with his narcissism and self-absorption did enormous damage to his country. He created a huge crisis with his lies. He will always be remembered for this scandal.


----------



## SMK

wraphter said:


> He was acquitted after a trial on impeachment charges passed by the House of Representatives. It was not merely a hearing.
> He lied about his conduct under oath and that is what got him in trouble.So years and years of investigations and millions
> of dollars were spent and the time and effort of the nation and government were devoted to solving this
> problem created by Bill Clinton.The work of governing the nation was neglected in this fixation on the sex life of Bill.
> 
> He is a liar ,plain and simple and what kind of woman would remain married to such a person?
> Obviously one who is expert at pulling the wool over her own eyes. She is as dishonest as her husband. What Bill did and what she tolerated says volumes about her honesty or lack thereof.
> 
> Bill Clinton is still getting into trouble. He visited the Attorney General Loretta Lynch on her plane on the tarmac.
> He said that Obamacare was crazy. He seems determined to embarrass her. He is real liability to her campaign.


Best post in a long time.


----------



## olivaw

Hillary Clinton will be the best vetted president in history. 
- All her taxes have been made public
- Her husband's sexual indiscretions have been examined by a special prosecutor and the Senate. He was acquitted. 
- Everybody and their dog seems to have an opinion about the internal workings of her marriage
- Her private emails have been made public (the biggest complaint is that some of them were deleted before they became public)
- The Clinton Foundations books are public
- She has been subjected to numerous congressional investigations at a cost of millions of taxpayer dollars
- Her accomplishments as first lady, senator and secretary of state are a matter of public record

And she's still standing. 

Trump
- Won't release his tax returns
- Trump foundation books are closed 
- Business links kept secret


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Sorry, you are wrong. Impeachment hearings are initiated by the House of Representatives but it is the Senate that conducts the hearing. Bill Clinton was acquitted by the Senate.
> 
> Should Hillary Clinton should be judged on her husband's affair(s)? Should she have divorced Bill? Polling suggests that most Americans found her conduct during and after the revelations about her husband to be admirable. You disagree, it seems.


Your use of the word 'hearing' is incorrect. A hearing is conducted by a committee which is less than the full House or Senate.
A committee can't pass laws. It can only make recommendations.For example Hillary went before the House committee holding
hearings on Benghazi.

The first step was the passing of a resolution in the House of Representatives.



> Upon the passage of H. Res. 611, Clinton was impeached on December 19, 1998, by the House of Representatives on grounds of perjury to a grand jury (by a 228–206 vote)[17] and obstruction of justice (by a 221–212 vote).[18] Two other articles of impeachment failed – a second count of perjury in the Jones case (by a 205–229 vote)[19] and one accusing Clinton of abuse of power (by a 148–285 vote).[20] Clinton thus became the second U.S. president to be impeached, following Andrew Johnson in 1868.


So this resolution of impeachment was very serious. Clinton was the second president to be impeached.



> The Senate *trial* began on January 8, 1999, with Chief Justice of the United States William Rehnquist presiding. The first day consisted of formal presentation of the charges against President Clinton, and of Chief Justice Rehnquist swearing in all arguants in the trial.


So it was not a Senate hearing. It was a Senate trial.

He brought this impeachment upon himself by his repeatedly lying.It was a self-inflicted wound. If he had told the truth he could have easily escaped
impeachment. 

She is just as dishonest as he is.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Your use of the word 'hearing' is incorrect. A hearing is conducted by a committee which is less than the full House or Senate.
> A committee can't pass laws. It can only make recommendations.For example Hillary went before the House committee holding
> hearings on Benghazi.


Your use of the word trial is incorrect in the context discussed. The Senate can only make a determination of fitness to hold office. A senate impeachment proceeding is not a criminal proceeding. 

The rest of your argument is meaningless and pointless. He was acquitted.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> And she's still standing.


Standing?

She can barely make it across the stage.

As for going up and down stairs----forget about it.:anonymous:


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Standing?
> 
> She can barely make it across the stage.
> 
> As for going up and down stairs----forget about it.:anonymous:


I dunno. She managed to hand Trump's *** to him on the debate stage. :smile:


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> I dunno. She managed to hand Trump's *** to him on the debate stage. :smile:


How embarrassing that Trump was knocked down by an invalid knocking on death's door.


----------



## Eder

sags said:


> Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinski had consensual sex. It wasn't right, but it was consensual between two adults.


That's why she saved her sperm stain?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Interview with Jack Abramoff, former 'super lobbyist' and why he thinks Hillary Clinton is the most corrupt person to get this close to the Presidency.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/13/j...d-states-to-get-this-close-to-the-presidency/


----------



## sags

Americans may say........she is a crook, but she is our crook.


----------



## tygrus

US gets drawn in again. Yeah because this engagement thing is working so well everywhere else. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-yemen-strike-houthi-iran-saudi-arabia-2016-10


----------



## Nelley

Lots of sympathy for Bill Cosby's rape victims here-but none at all for Bill Clinton's rape victims-looks a lot like racism to me-you Crooked Hillary supporters hate Cosby because he is BLACK.


----------



## mrPPincer

Conspiracy Nelley.
Just what alternate universe did you just pop in from where Bill Clinton was a rapist?


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Conspiracy Nelley.
> Just what alternate universe did you just pop in from where Bill Clinton was a rapist?


Philosophical Question: If Bill Clinton rapes women and CNN ignores it, did Slick Willy actually rape any women?


----------



## mrPPincer

The *actual* rapist we should be concerned about could be the next leader of the most powerful nation on the planet, doesn't that worry you?


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> The *actual* rapist we should be concerned about could be the next leader of the most powerful nation on the planet, doesn't that worry you?


Don't get discouraged-the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet hasn't lost yet.


----------



## TomB19

Hi Nelley!

Welcome back. You have been missed.

When you left, we figured there was no hope in life so we might as well vote Democrat.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Philosophical Question: If Bill Clinton rapes women and CNN ignores it, did Slick Willy actually rape any women?


lol!

This is the kind of quality posting we have been missing! Mention Hitler to clean up the spare. :applause:


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> lol!
> 
> This is the kind of quality posting we have been missing! Mention Hitler to clean up the spare. :applause:


Hmm-now that you mention it ..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMvxCS-rbig


----------



## sags

It is a waste of time watching the news anymore.

I found it astounding that CNN found it astounding that all the claims from the accusers exactly matched Trump's words on the video.

Duh............the accusations all came "after" the video was released to the public.

The uniformity of the complaints makes me highly suspect that at least some of them aren't false. Life just doesn't work that way.

Now can everyone agree that Trump is a chump, Clinton is crooked and get on with what separates them on the real issues ?

Because either way, one of them is going to be the President.


----------



## sags

They should all take a bath in sprinkles, because sprinkles smell so good.

Kind of hard to wash off though...........but then, why would you want to.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> lol!
> 
> This is the kind of quality posting we have been missing! Mention Hitler to clean up the spare. :applause:


That second debate wasn't what the Fuhrer wanted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dVHuVfkvQ


----------



## olivaw

Nate Silver has concluded that*Trump is not made of teflon*. 



> *Proposition No. 1: Trump isn’t “Teflon.” Stories like these have hurt him.* (Teflon isn't orange)
> 
> *Proposition No. 2: These events may affect Trump’s “floor” more than his “ceiling.” * (How low can he go?)
> 
> *Proposition No. 3: It’s plausible that the effect on the polls could be temporary rather than permanent.* (Can Trump get back to the heady days when he was polling at 40.5% instead of 39%?)
> 
> *Proposition No. 4: We probably haven’t seen the end of this. *(And if we have, Trump will bring it up in a 3:00 AM tweet)
> 
> *Proposition No. 5: This probably won’t cost him the election — because Trump was already losing.* (but how badly was he losing Nate?)


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Nate Silver has concluded that*Trump is not made of teflon*.


Crooked Hillary is a lot more vulnerable when the mud really starts slinging-everybody knows Trump has been a playboy billionaire-young women don't know Crooked Hillary's sordid past of attacking and threatening women (Bill's victims) and the little snowflakes are going to be really disillusioned when they hear it.


----------



## new dog

Nelly is now back after a few warm up posts. I welcome you back as well as we have all battled to keep the thread entertaining.

On another note we should put down our title ideas here for the thread that follows this one after the election.

Option 1 Trump Wins Stock market in Freewill. This title however may go under the investing portion of the forum.

Option 2 Hillary Wins and Corruption Now Unstoppable.


----------



## mrPPincer

Conspiracy Nelly your efforts in keeping this thread entertaining have not gone unappreciated, I'm sure even your so-called little snowflakes are getting a laugh


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Conspiracy Nelly your efforts in keeping this thread entertaining has not gone unappreciated, I'm sure even your so-called little snowflakes are getting a laugh


Snowflakes are not allowed to laugh...to do so means that someone or something had to be made fun of and feelings were hurt.


----------



## olivaw

Hillary's enthusiasm on the campaign trail suggests that she's confident in her ability to withstand Trump's mud. 

Trump doesn't appear to be handling the mud well.


----------



## olivaw

The Trump allegations are summarized at: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/13/list-of-donald-trump-sexual-misconduct-allegations

There are many allegations. Some were levelled before the tape, others after the tape. As far as I know, most are unproven.


----------



## indexxx

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you are wondering how likely the stories are remember Donald is married to a supermodel and Bill has Hillary waiting at home.


That means absolutely nothing. There is far more to attraction and compatibility dynamics than looks- I know incredibly hot, beautiful women that I don't feel a flutter for, and other plain-looking women that just totally 'have it' in my eyes. Trump's wife could be there just for a trophy and he might not really care much about her. Hillary and Bill could have an amazing connection in their private lives (and might very well have, given that she didn't leave him for his affairs.)


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> Maybe Hillary just loves him, for better or worse.
> 
> Or, maybe Hillary is a member of a vanguard of women who honor their wedding vows and stick it out through good times and bad, sickness and health..........


As Trump himself said, she is a fighter...


----------



## indexxx

andrewf said:


> How embarrassing that Trump was knocked down by an invalid knocking on death's door.


As I said after the first debate, she looks pretty healthy, clear, and spry to me. You've never been sick or had a medical condition that you got over?


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> Lots of sympathy for Bill Cosby's rape victims here-but none at all for Bill Clinton's rape victims-looks a lot like racism to me-you Crooked Hillary supporters hate Cosby because he is BLACK.


Sorry- this is just an incredibly offensive post. Where do you get off saying something like that to the people on this forum? I grew up listening to Bill Cosby's comedy albums, watching his shows, and had an enormous amount of respect and fondness for him and what he claimed to stand for regarding equality. I was astounded at the allegations brought forth and hope he gets what is coming to him if guilty. i dislike him because I feel a bit 'betrayed' by his wrongdoings, so far removed from the man I grew up liking. The amount of melanin in the man's skin does not enter the picture. As I mentioned a few posts ago, the amount of abject hatred and vitriol directed on the forum towards left-leaning people is just mind-boggling. It just drives the point deeper that the far right are hate-mongers. To paint everyone here that disagrees with your personal political beliefs as racists is just inexcusable.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> Sorry- this is just an incredibly offensive post. Where do you get off saying something like that to the people on this forum? I grew up listening to Bill Cosby's comedy albums, watching his shows, and had an enormous amount of respect and fondness for him and what he claimed to stand for regarding equality. I was astounded at the allegations brought forth and hope he gets what is coming to him if guilty. i dislike him because I feel a bit 'betrayed' by his wrongdoings, so far removed from the man I grew up liking. The amount of melanin in the man's skin does not enter the picture. As I mentioned a few posts ago, the amount of abject hatred and vitriol directed on the forum towards left-leaning people is just mind-boggling. It just drives the point deeper that the far right are hate-mongers. To paint everyone here that disagrees with your personal political beliefs as racists is just inexcusable.


Tesla: You are obviously such a hero and a model for all citizens (as you never tire of telling us)-maybe you could consider working on your sense of humour and then you would be perfect.


----------



## olivaw

Devastating news for Trump supporters and their conspiratorial sock puppets. The upper house in the Australian state of New South Wales has passed a motion declaring that Donald Trump is a *revolting slug who is unfit for public office*.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Now can everyone agree that Trump is a chump, Clinton is crooked and get on with what separates them on the real issues ?


I don't agree that Hillary is crooked. None of the mud slinging coming from the Republican base has been proven to exist outside of the imaginations of the basket of deplorables.

I'm not a big Hillary fan. I feel there are plenty of legitimate reasons to not like her.

I used to think that Trump wouldn't be that bad as a president. Some of his ideas resonated deeply with me. ... but then he kept talking. lol!


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Tesla: You are obviously such a hero and a model for all citizens (as you never tire of telling us)-maybe you could consider working on your sense of humour and then you would be perfect.


Hey Nelley,

What about the fact that Donald Trump is a biggest fascist than Adolph Hitler was and Trump has said he will cleans the world of Muslims, Jews, and those of African descent?

How do you sleep nights, stumping for someone who is worse than Hitler? I'm embarrassed for you.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Hey Nelley,
> 
> What about the fact that Donald Trump is a biggest fascist than Adolph Hitler was and Trump has said he will cleans the world of Muslims, Jews, and those of African descent?
> 
> How do you sleep nights, stumping for someone who is worse than Hitler? I'm embarrassed for you.


I can tell you that I definitely would not sleep well on the bus or plane if someone with your intellect was driving.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> Devastating news for Trump supporters and their conspiratorial sock puppets. The upper house in the Australian state of New South Wales has passed a motion declaring that Donald Trump is a *revolting slug who is unfit for public office*.




They are both revolting slugs, neither of them can really move around very fast.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> They are both revolting slugs, neither of them can really move around very fast.


The war is over-the slugs have kissed and made up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Wde1fFvPg


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> I don't agree that Hillary is crooked.



Well she is a terrific investor in the very difficult field of cattle futures.Without any experience she made $100,000 on her own.
Then she left that area and never went back again to make some money. What are the odds of that,do you think? 

The use of a private server for her email shows that she thinks she is above the law . Rules are for lesser mortals. 

it was a self-defeating move that made the race much closer than it had to be. If she does things like that when she is president there will be hell to pay.

bill and hillary are worth about $111 million. Some marriage they have.

They are just using each other.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> bill and hillary are worth about $111 million. Some marriage they have.
> 
> They are just using each other.


Wow you are as good a marriage counsellor as Conspiracy Nelley is a doctor.


----------



## olivaw

Guys, I'm worried for Donald Trump. When he sees this, he is going to blow a gasket .......


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> Hey Nelley,
> 
> What about the fact that Donald Trump is a biggest fascist than Adolph Hitler was and Trump has said he will cleans the world of Muslims, Jews, and those of African descent?
> 
> How do you sleep nights, stumping for someone who is worse than Hitler? I'm embarrassed for you.


Is that you working on your sense of humour? Soooo funny.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Guys, I'm worried for Donald Trump. When he sees this, he is going to blow a gasket .......


This is the same woman that was all over the MSM in 2008 claiming that Crooked Hillary was the devil-I guess she changed her mind.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> This is the same woman that was all over the MSM in 2008 claiming that Crooked Hillary was the devil-I guess she changed her mind.


I don't believe that she said that Hillary Clinton is the devil. That's a right wing conspiracy theory - more your style.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> I don't believe that she said that Hillary Clinton is the devil. That's a right wing conspiracy theory - more your style.


I think we can all agree that 2016 has been a very bad year for the Church of the Sheep-unless you stick very close to your MSM pablum dispenser the world looks rather confusing for you guys.


----------



## mordko

It's as if TomB and Nelley share a brain cell and keep passing it to the other guy just before they start typing.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> I think we can all agree that 2016 has been a very bad year for the Church of the Sheep-unless you stick very close to your MSM pablum dispenser the world looks rather confusing for you guys.


I don't know anything about the Church of the Sheep so here's a pretty picture.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> It's as if TomB and Nelley share a brain cell and keep passing it to the other guy just before they start typing.


You know who else thinks that? Hitler. That's who.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Latest conspiracy theory: Trump will win because the global elites want him to win. They know the American economy is hanging by a thread, the problems caused by the real estate and mortgage collapse in 2008 have never been dealt with, just papered over with government bail outs, zero percent interest rates and round after round of quantitative easing. Now they are running out of time, soon they will have to pull the rug out and when they do they want a conservative Republican to take the fall. The next crash will be far worse than 2008 and when the dust settles conservatism and Republicanism will be discredited for 50 years, and they can impose whatever liberal Democrat socialist dictatorship they please. The public will beg them to or at least, their media will which is the same thing.

http://www.alt-market.com/articles/...y-to-blame-you-for-the-coming-financial-crash


----------



## mordko

Perhaps TomB never got to hold that brain cell in the first place. Textbook antisemitism, attempted as a type of particularly sick "humour".


----------



## carverman

Last night on local CBC news, the host asked a US citizen living in Ottawa which candidate she would vote for.

Although she detested Trump's outlandish remarks and allegations of sexual impropriety/ harrassment unearthed by the media to discredit Trump, she felt that Trump was still better candidate for the job than Hillary.

Why do you think so? asked the host. 

She replied because of Benghazi, and the missing emails which may have been related to national security as well as (yet unproven) corruption allegations involving Hillary and Bill. 

Right now, some state polls show them neck and neck, or Trump just slightly below her in the ratings as Trump is in damage control mode.

This could all change in the next few days, as more damaging information is unearthed about Trumps previous misconduct. 
But Clinton's reputation is also shrouded in mystery. If Trump's campaign team or the media learn of her involvement with the Russians (oligarches from Kazahkstan), and the big payoff to the Clinton foundation using her influence (while still US secretary of state), to secure the uranium mine deal in Canada..it could be a landslide win for Trump.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/u...ssed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0



> *Among the Donors to the Clinton Foundation*
> Frank Giustra
> *$31.3 million* and a pledge for $100 million more
> He built a company that later merged with Uranium One.





> Ian Telfer
> *$2.35 million*
> Mining investor who was chairman of Uranium One when an arm of the Russian government, Rosatom, acquired it.





> Before Mrs. Clinton could assume her post as secretary of state, the White House demanded that she *sign a memorandum of understanding placing limits on the activities of her husband’s foundation. To avoid the perception of conflicts of interest, beyond the ban on foreign government donations, the foundation was required to publicly disclose all contributors.*
> 
> To judge from those disclosures — which list the contributions in ranges rather than precise amounts — the only Uranium One official to give to the Clinton Foundation was Mr. Telfer, the chairman, and the amount was relatively small: no more than $250,000, and that was in 2007, before talk of a Rosatom deal began percolating.





> Correction: April 30, 2015
> An article on Friday about contributions to the Clinton Foundation from people associated with a Canadian uranium-mining company described incorrectly the foundation’s agreement w*ith the Obama administration regarding foreign-government donations while Hillary Clinton was secretary of state. *Under the agreement, the foundation would not accept new donations from foreign governments, though it could seek State Department waivers in specific cases. The foundation was not barred from accepting all foreign-government donations.


Certainly there seems to be some evidence of corruption within the Clinton foundation..you be the judge. 

Trump was at least zeroing on all this when he publicly mentioned that if he were to become president,
he would have a special prosecutor to go after Hilliary for her involvement in deleting the emails while she was officially still secretary of state.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> It's as if TomB and Nelley share a brain cell and keep passing it to the other guy just before they start typing.


That explains your stupid posts-did your little buddy leave you on your own?


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Latest conspiracy theory: Trump will win because the global elites want him to win. They know the American economy is hanging by a thread, the problems caused by the real estate and mortgage collapse in 2008 have never been dealt with, just papered over with government bail outs, zero percent interest rates and round after round of quantitative easing. Now they are running out of time, soon they will have to pull the rug out and when they do they want a conservative Republican to take the fall. The next crash will be far worse than 2008 and when the dust settles conservatism and Republicanism will be discredited for 50 years, and they can impose whatever liberal Democrat socialist dictatorship they please. The public will beg them to or at least, their media will which is the same thing.
> 
> http://www.alt-market.com/articles/...y-to-blame-you-for-the-coming-financial-crash


It is definitely a big mess-and yes if Trump wins he will be blamed for every problem starting maybe 5 minutes after he gets in-fiscal and financial problems that have been building for decades-his advantage will be IF he gets in it is because the public has told the corrupt MSM to f--k off and die so the public won't be swallowing their crap like previous generations.


----------



## Nelley

carverman said:


> Last night on local CBC news, the host asked a US citizen living in Ottawa which candidate she would vote for.
> 
> Although she detested Trump's outlandish remarks and allegations of sexual impropriety/ harrassment unearthed by the media to discredit Trump,
> she felt that Trump was still better candidate for the job than Hillary.
> 
> Why do you think so? asked the host.
> 
> She replied because of Benghazi, and the missing emails which may have been related to national security as well as (yet unproven) corruption allegations involving Hillary and Bill.
> 
> Right now, some state polls show them neck and neck, or Trump just slightly below her in the ratings as Trump is in damage control mode.
> 
> This could all change in the next few days, as more damaging information is unearthed about Trumps previous misconduct.
> But Clinton's reputation is also shrouded in mystery. If Trump's campaign team or the media learn of her involvement with the Russians (oligarches from Kazahkstan), and the big payoff to the Clinton foundation using her influence to secure the uranuim mine deal in Canada..it could be a landslide win for Trump.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/u...ssed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correction: April 30, 2015
> An article on Friday about contributions to the Clinton Foundation from people associated with a Canadian uranium-mining company described incorrectly the foundation’s agreement w*ith the Obama administration regarding foreign-government donations while Hillary Clinton was secretary of state. *Under the agreement, the foundation would not accept new donations from foreign governments, though it could seek State Department waivers in specific cases. The foundation was not barred from accepting all foreign-government donations.
> 
> Certainly there seems to be some evidence of corruption within the Clinton foundation..you be the judge.
> 
> Trump was at least zeroing on all this when he publicly mentioned that if he were to become president,
> he would have a special prosecutor to go after Hilliary for her involvement in deleting the emails while she was officially still secretary of state.


IF Trump wins IMO Crooked Hillary is going to prison and everybody knows it-I should mention that Bill Clinton is just as guilty-Hillary wasn't doing all that crime and deleting 33000 emails that could convict her just for herself-he gained just as much.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> That explains your stupid posts-did your little buddy leave you on your own?


Hey Nelley.

Did I ever tell you about the time I was having a dream that I had a hernia that was strangulating? It was a nightmare. I bolted to the sitting position, in a cold sweat, frightened and alert. It took me a few seconds to realize my underwear was bisecting my nuts.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> It is definitely a big mess-and yes if Trump wins he will be blamed for every problem starting maybe 5 minutes after he gets in-fiscal and financial problems that have been building for decades-his advantage will be IF he gets in it is because the public has told the corrupt MSM to f--k off and die so the public won't be swallowing their crap like previous generations.


That's because Democrats are more objective than Republicans. In the second half of 2008, when the US economy was spinning out of control, Republicans blamed the economic problems on the fact that Barack Obama was running for president. lmao!


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> That's because Democrats are more objective than Republicans. In the second half of 2008, when the US economy was spinning out of control, Republicans blamed the economic problems on the fact that Barack Obama was running for president. lmao!


Republican politicians/Democrat politicians-the vast majority of both parties are corrupt weasels-which is why they all hate Trump.


----------



## Nelley

This is big-the Wall Street Journal-naturally in the Clinton camp-has slammed her in an editorial-are the rats fleeing the sinking ship? http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-press-buries-hillary-clintons-sins-1476401308


----------



## andrewf

indexxx said:


> As I said after the first debate, she looks pretty healthy, clear, and spry to me. You've never been sick or had a medical condition that you got over?


I was being a tad sardonic. I think if anything Hillary looked healthier than Trump, with his constant sniffing (coke?) and shiftiness.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> This is big-the Wall Street Journal-naturally in the Clinton camp-has slammed her in an editorial-are the rats fleeing the sinking ship? http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-press-buries-hillary-clintons-sins-1476401308


Why naturally in the Clinton camp? WSJ is a conservative newspaper.

And if you think Hillary's ship is sinking (ie, cruising to victory), I can't imagine what you think of Trump's boat.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Republican politicians/Democrat politicians-the vast majority of both parties are corrupt weasels-which is why they all hate Trump.


I don't believe politicians are as corrupt as many people seem to think.

Sure, there is a low level corruption in almost all of them. The majority of them serve corporations directly and those who don't will not be holding office long. That will not change until Citizen's United is overturned.

Trump had the cachet of not being controlled by big interests. That was very appealing. Also appealing was his desire to bring trade into closer balance with tariffs.

Hillary will not win this election as much as Trump will lose, IMO. Trump could have been president, had his temperament been more appropriate.

The question now is, is Hillary likely to get a second term?

I suspect Hillary's second term will depend entirely on the state of the Republican party in four years. If it hasn't improved, of course she will get a second term.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Things that make you go hmmm


In 2004 the Republican National Committee spent $18.2 million promoting George Bush's candidacy

In 2008 they spent $53.5 million on the John McCain vs Obama campaign

In 2012 they spent $42.4 million boosting Mitt Romney

In 2016 they spent $0 promoting Donald Trump

And he still has the Dems running scared.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Billionaire surrounded by hot women for 40 years, not one accusation of sexual harassment until 3 weeks before the election.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Billionaire surrounded by hot women for 40 years, not one accusation of sexual harassment until 3 weeks before the election.


It is meant as a distraction from the heavy dirt to come on Bill Clinton-IMO this won't help much.


----------



## Nelley

This should come as no surprise, but FBI agents see director James Comey as a bagman, a dirty cop http://spectator.org/former-u-s-attorney-agents-see-fbi-chief-comey-as-a-dirty-cop/


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> It is meant as a distraction from the heavy dirt to come on Bill Clinton-IMO this won't help much.


Keep that chin up Conspiracy Nelley. I'm sure there must be something that was missed in the 1990s.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Keep that chin up Conspiracy Nelley. I'm sure there must be something that was missed in the 1990s.


Obviously nothing could sway a zombie like yourself-not everybody is as fanatical.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Obviously nothing could sway a zombie like yourself-not everybody is as fanatical.


C'mon man ....


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> This should come as no surprise, but FBI agents see director James Comey as a bagman, a dirty cop http://spectator.org/former-u-s-attorney-agents-see-fbi-chief-comey-as-a-dirty-cop/


He's dirtier than you think. It is the role of the FBI or any police force to investigate crime and come up with the facts, then hand over the results to a Grand Jury who decides whether to prosecute or not. It is not up to the FBI to decide whether to prosecute. Nobody who has looked into the matter doubts that the investigation was rigged in Clinton's favor. Maybe Comey doesn't want to join the long list of people suicided by the Clintons.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Billionaire surrounded by hot women for 40 years, not one accusation of sexual harassment until 3 weeks before the election.


No kidding.

The rapes are extremely suspect.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Things that make you go hmmm
> 
> 
> In 2004 the Republican National Committee spent $18.2 million promoting George Bush's candidacy
> 
> In 2008 they spent $53.5 million on the John McCain vs Obama campaign
> 
> In 2012 they spent $42.4 million boosting Mitt Romney
> 
> In 2016 they spent $0 promoting Donald Trump
> 
> And he still has the Dems running scared.


Do you know these figures are fabricated or are you just a sheep parroting a chain mail into this forum?

Mitt spent close to half a billion. With superpac spending, the Republican spend in 2012 was about $1.25B.

The Obama campaign and superpacs combined to spend about $800B in 2012, by comparison.

How stupid do you think we are? Seriously? $42M will not buy many prime time spots and we all had televisions in 2012.

Shall I rip apart the other years?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Back in August, U.S. District Court Judge Emmet G. Sullivan granted Judicial Watch the right to ask 25 questions of Hillary Clinton about the creation of her private email server which she was required to answer under oath (we wrote about it here). This morning Hillary filed her response to those 25 questions which can be best summarized by the following stats:

Occurrences of the phrase "Does Not Recall": 20

Occurrences of the word "Object" or "Objection": 84

To summarize the 23-page response, Hillary "does not recall" the majority of her tenure as Secretary of State and "objects" to everything that she does recall.

So on a take home, open book test she answers 'does not recall' to 20 out of 25 questions. Nope, no sign of Alzheimer's there.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> The rapes are extremely suspect.


There were allegations before, but there are no new rape allegations, AFAIK. The new allegations are about unwanted and aggressive sexual advances.


----------



## bass player

Hillary's "I don't recall" so many times is either a sign that she is mentally unfit for office, or it's a sign that she is covering her *** by not answering truthfully...which also makes her unfit for office.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Back in August, U.S. District Court Judge Emmet G. Sullivan granted Judicial Watch the right to ask 25 questions of Hillary Clinton about the creation of her private email server which she was required to answer under oath (we wrote about it here). This morning Hillary filed her response to those 25 questions which can be best summarized by the following stats:
> 
> Occurrences of the phrase "Does Not Recall": 20
> 
> Occurrences of the word "Object" or "Objection": 84
> 
> To summarize the 23-page response, Hillary "does not recall" the majority of her tenure as Secretary of State and "objects" to everything that she does recall.
> 
> So on a take home, open book test she answers 'does not recall' to 20 out of 25 questions. Nope, no sign of Alzheimer's there.


My favorite fabrication from the Republican base is a news clip that claims the FBI found 5 million uncounted Bernie Sanders electronic votes on Hillary's email server. lmao!


Here's how I portion this:

...................................................................................... Republican / Democrat

Claims of fact that are so preposterous as to be absolutely hilarious: 100% / 0%

Items that have a component of truth but are deliberately misinterpreted and misrepresented: 50% / 50%


----------



## andrewf

TomB19 said:


> The question now is, is Hillary likely to get a second term?
> 
> I suspect Hillary's second term will depend entirely on the state of the Republican party in four years. If it hasn't improved, of course she will get a second term.


I actually expect that Hillary will be more popular after her first mandate. She tends to do a good job, when she's in the job, and is more popular when she isn't running for office.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> The new allegations are about unwanted and aggressive sexual advances.


The odds of these allegations NOT being politically motivated are almost nil.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Hillary's "I don't recall" so many times is either a sign that she is mentally unfit for office, or it's a sign that she is covering her *** by not answering truthfully...which also makes her unfit for office.


So when Trump denies saying something he said 5 minutes ago, he must be exhibiting extreme dementia.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> So when Trump denies saying something he said 5 minutes ago, he must be exhibiting extreme dementia.


How many times has Trump been questioned by the FBI and "not recalled" what he said?


----------



## mrPPincer

TomB19 said:


> The odds of these allegations NOT being politically motivated are almost nil.


Of course the people sexually assualted by him clearly don't want to see him in office, there's no question, makes perfect sense if they have even the tiniest bit of concern for their country.

That's why they feel the responsibility to bravely step forward now with their stories of the creep's true character.
Kudos to them!


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Of course the people sexually assualted by him clearly don't want to see him in office, there's no question, makes perfect sense if they have even the tiniest bit of concern for their country.
> 
> That's why they feel the responsibility to bravely step forward now with their stories of the creep's true character.
> Kudos to them!


Both accusers are registered Democrats, and everyone knows that there is no such thing as a Democrat that cares about their country.


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> So when Trump denies saying something he said 5 minutes ago, he must be exhibiting extreme dementia.


Before you go along with the idea that court ordered responses have been provided and Rusty has them, perhaps you should ask him why Internet news sources suggest otherwise? I've been able to find several articles of court ordered server questions, sourced from Judicial Watch (a Republican organization), but there are no indications of a response or a commentary on any questions. Even Snopes and PolitiFact don't know about this story.

When such a huge percentage of the crap coming from the Republican base is a direct lie, I'd be more than a little suspicious of these sort of claims.

The Hillary representing a rapist story is also BS. There is a tiny kernel of truth to it with a corn field of lies piled on top.

It's stupefying some of these people can manage a day to day life but it is clear they can. Many of them are pretty smart and get along just fine. I don't understand it but there it is. One does not require objectivity in all aspects of life to succeed. Many Republicans have no interest in being objective about Hillary.

The ridiculous part of this is there are many legitimate things that could be discussed, regarding Hillary. Many of them somewhat negative. She is pro-establishment, does not seem interested in regulating Wall Street, has no interest in reigning in federal government power, and she has been somewhat hawkish on war issues. These things could easily be discussed in a political discussion but, instead of substantive chatter, we are discussing fabrications and lies. It's ridiculous.


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> Of course the people sexually assualted by him clearly don't want to see him in office, there's no question, makes perfect sense if they have even the tiniest bit of concern for their country.
> 
> That's why they feel the responsibility to bravely step forward now with their stories of the creep's true character.
> Kudos to them!


You know... I share your point of view but I can also see that an assault/rape accusation is a dangerously effective way to scuttle the presidential hopes of a candidate. It could be an effective form of political terrorism.

Police friends tell me that roughly 50% of rape accusations turn out to be false. I personally know of two cases in which women accused men of rape, obliterated the lives of these men, and later reneged but the men's lives were never restored. Even with expunged records, these men will never be employable or do well in business.

Remember when Republicans were circulating stories of Obama banging one of his campaign staff in 2008? Like all Republican BS, it turned out to be false. Obama also turned out to not be a terrorist, Muslim, or the devil. ... and he turned out to be an American. Who would have guessed?

I hope these claims are objectively investigated and either Trump prosecuted or these women should be thrown in jail for a long time.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Of course the people sexually assualted by him clearly don't want to see him in office, there's no question, makes perfect sense if they have even the tiniest bit of concern for their country.
> 
> That's why they feel the responsibility to bravely step forward now with their stories of the creep's true character.
> Kudos to them!


It is just good luck for the world's most renowned and famous rapist-Bill Clinton-that the guy opposing Bill and Hillary can be sold to the braindead sheep as also a rapist.


----------



## mrPPincer

I get what you're saying Tom re rape allegations, but as I understand it, the accusations of the women coming forward were of aggressive fondling w/o permission, which is a form of sexual assault, criminal, but not rape.

I've heard there is already a case on the books however, which is due for court soon where he's accused of raping a minor, but this was already in the works prior to the bus tape though.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Before you go along with the idea that court ordered responses have been provided and Rusty has them, perhaps you should ask him why Internet news sources suggest otherwise? I've been able to find several articles of court ordered server questions, sourced from Judicial Watch (a Republican organization), but there are no indications of a response or a commentary on any questions. Even Snopes and PolitiFact don't know about this story.
> 
> When such a huge percentage of the crap coming from the Republican base is a direct lie, I'd be more than a little suspicious of these sort of claims.
> 
> The Hillary representing a rapist story is also BS. There is a tiny kernel of truth to it with a corn field of lies piled on top.
> 
> It's stupefying some of these people can manage a day to day life but it is clear they can. Many of them are pretty smart and get along just fine. I don't understand it but there it is. One does not require objectivity in all aspects of life to succeed. Many Republicans have no interest in being objective about Hillary.
> 
> The ridiculous part of this is there are many legitimate things that could be discussed, regarding Hillary. Many of them somewhat negative. She is pro-establishment, does not seem interested in regulating Wall Street, has no interest in reigning in federal government power, and she has been somewhat hawkish on war issues. These things could easily be discussed in a political discussion but, instead of substantive chatter, we are discussing fabrications and lies. It's ridiculous.


Sorry Tom but on this one you are full of B/S-Crooked Hillary has never denied her involvement in the brutal rape case. She was an exact copy of the lawyer in the movie CAPE FEAR-the only difference is the lawyer in the movies (played in version 1 by Gregory Peck and version 2 by Nick Nolte) actually were far better people than this sick demented criminal puppet and could not condone what their client had done.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> It is just good luck for the world's most renowned and famous rapist-Bill Clinton-that the guy opposing Bill and Hillary can be sold to the braindead sheep as also a rapist.


More nonsense from Conspiracy Nelly.

I heard mr. Clinton was proved to be in another city the day of the alleged allegations, and she recanted her accusations, then recanted her recant, that her story kept on and keeps changing.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> More nonsense from Conspiracy Nelly.
> 
> I heard mr. Clinton was proved to be in another city the day of the alleged allegations, and she recanted her accusations, then recanted her recant, that her story kept on and keeps changing.


SURE-everything is a big conspiracy-probably run by Putin-Crooked Hillary has never even learned how to use email-and Bill is a virgin.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Sorry Tom but on this one you are full of B/S-Crooked Hillary has never denied her involvement in the brutal rape case.


We know quite a bit about the case. That's how we know Republican are lying about it.


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> I get what you're saying Tom re rape allegations, but as I understand it, the accusations of the women coming forward were of aggressive fondling w/o permission, which is a form of sexual assault, criminal, but not rape.
> 
> I've heard there is already a case on the books however, which is due for court soon where he's accused of raping a minor, but this was already in the works prior to the bus tape though.


The problem is "I heard". Instead of our accusations versus their accusations, I prefer to seek objectivity.

Trump deserves to be innocent until proven guilty as much as any American citizen.

The presumption of innocence is a dying principle but I will cling to it until the end. lol!

Just like Hillary, there are plenty of Trump issues that can be discussed without resorting to unproven concerns.


----------



## sags

Imagine Hillary Clinton making similar comments about men, and then running for President ?

I can do anything I want because I am famous......grab them by the balls, kiss them.....look at the bulge on that guy......better pop a Tic Tac.


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> I actually expect that Hillary will be more popular after her first mandate. She tends to do a good job, when she's in the job, and is more popular when she isn't running for office.


Do you mean it may go similar to how it went with Obama? Obama was the worst president ever in November 2008 but he later became quite popular.


It's a shame Republicans are driving people away with the smear machine. They are smearing each other now, too. Trump took out Jeb with the phrase "Low energy Jeb".

Some of the smear ads in this election are staggering. Holy cow. lol!

I hope we've gotten to the bottom and perhaps we could go up from here. During the debate, Trump spent most of his time talking about Hillary and Hillary spent most of her time about Trump.

Perhaps the problem is my lack of ability to grasp the idea that Americans really don't care about platforms or digging in to determine the truth of any given issue. Economy. Jobs. ... that's it.


----------



## bass player

Imagine that Juanita Broaddrick made accusations about Trump 30 years ago and did an interview on NBC that was aired nationally.

Would they be running the interview over and over again, or would they keep it buried like they are right now?


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Imagine Hillary Clinton making similar comments about men, and then running for President ?


Agreed but is that really the worst thing about Trump?

How many men have engaged in locker room talk? I would think every one. Trump just made the mistake of doing it on a hot mike. I think most people would be smart enough to tone it down when wearing a microphone but Trump may be sufficiently comfortable wearing a mic that he relaxed and boasted on as normal.

That was low class but it's important to distinguish between what he said and that he did not physically grab anyone by the genetalia.

IMO, it was more telling of how much confidence he has and how boastful he is. That is the kind of confidence that is required to succeed in business.

In this case, I think the Democrat base is making too much of it.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Imagine Hillary Clinton making similar comments about men, and then running for President ?


Imagine Hillary publicly slandering women who have accused Bill of sexual assault?


----------



## olivaw

This is what you call Karma. 

1) Trump held a press conference to trot out a woman who made unsubstantiated accusations of sexual assault against Hillary Clinton's husband. 
2) The Trump campaign argued that millennial women need to hear the woman's story. Trump seated her woman in the front audience row of the presidential debate. 
3) Trump is now the target of unsubstantiated allegations of sexual assault. He now claims to be the victim of an engineered stunt.

Trump made it an election issue, not Hillary.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> I actually expect that Hillary will be more popular after her first mandate. She tends to do a good job, when she's in the job, and is more popular when she isn't running for office.


I agree. She was very popular when she was secretary of state. 

My Democrat friend says that he doesn't expect her to run for a second term due to her age. He's older than Hillary so I don't think he is an ageist.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> I agree. She was very popular when she was secretary of state.
> 
> My Democrat friend says that he doesn't expect her to run for a second term due to her age. He's older than Hillary so I don't think he is an ageist.



then part of her job will be grooming the successor? now _that_ will be interesting ... spring, summer & fall of 2020

will the GOP have had a chance to get itself back on track by 2020?


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Imagine Hillary Clinton making similar comments about men, and then running for President ?
> 
> I can do anything I want because I am famous......grab them by the balls, kiss them.....look at the bulge on that guy......better pop a Tic Tac.



I would probably have a good laugh if I heard this and wouldn't care less about it. This would be much better then the crooked stuff.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Nelly is now back after a few warm up posts. I welcome you back as well as we have all battled to keep the thread entertaining.



i get the feeling that New Nelley is a different writer posting in the same account

new nelley doesn't seem to be anchored in toronto ... new nelley seems to be more of an american ... new nelley seems to be more of a male personnage ...

.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Imagine that Juanita Broaddrick made accusations about Trump 30 years ago and did an interview on NBC that was aired nationally.
> 
> Would they be running the interview over and over again, or would they keep it buried like they are right now?



juanita broaddrick does not have a credible story under today's legal system. She has claimed at one time or another that Bill Clinton raped her in 1978, although she did not file a police report or press charges at the time.

ever since, for 38 long years, broaddrick's story has been on-again-off-again. At one time she filed an affidavit testifying that the act had indeed taken place. Then she recanted the affidavit. Then she recanted the recantation.

there is room in this world for a valid discussion about why so many women do not come forward immediately to press charges against their abusers. This question was aired repeatedly after the gian ghomeshi trial. 

but this thread has nothing to do with the issue of delayed rape accusations. In 2016, a personnage behaving like juanita broaddrick forfeits any right to be taken seriously. An examination of her twitter account shows her to be an extreme alt-right, all the way down to paranoid belief in control of the planet by Illuminati.

as it happens, i did view the "press conference" that donald trump held immediately prior to the 2nd debate, where he presented the 4 women who would allege sexual abuse by bill or hillary clinton. 

after the debate, this "press conference" was the first item to be universally condemned by republicans who began fleeing the GOP.

it was one of the most pathetic "press conferences" i've ever witnessed. Trump displayed 4 frightened, non-communicative, dysfunctional women like so many head of cattle. It was interesting to watch the small number of reporters who bothered to cover this "press conference." They filed hesitantly into the room, with body language that suggested embarassment at even being there. In effect, the photographers were being shown a quartet of visibly maimed & pitiful creatures, who for some reason were insisting on showing ancient injuries to the nation.

after 38 years, no one can take juanita broaddrick seriously. Reportedly in 1978, at the time of the alleged clinton incident, broaddrick was having an affair with a man who was not her then-husband. Subsequently she divorced the original husband & married the lover. However the 2nd marriage also broke down, apparently over broaddrick's obsession across all the years with a few wispy recollections of what she believed had been a clinton encounter in 1978.


.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Imagine Hillary Clinton making similar comments about men, and then running for President ?
> 
> I can do anything I want because I am famous......grab them by the balls, kiss them.....look at the bulge on that guy......better pop a Tic Tac.


You have a more vivid imagination than me-must be all those acid trips you did back in the day.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> I agree. She was very popular when she was secretary of state.
> 
> My Democrat friend says that he doesn't expect her to run for a second term due to her age. He's older than Hillary so I don't think he is an ageist.


Yeah yeah yeah-Crooked Hillary is a regular Jack Lalanne-she is in fantastic shape for her age-LOL.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i get the feeling that New Nelley is a different writer posting in the same account
> 
> new nelley doesn't seem to be anchored in toronto ... new nelley seems to be more of an american ... new nelley seems to be more of a male personnage ...
> 
> .


And I thought you were politically correct-this is Kathleen Wynne's Ontario-there are not 2 genders-there are 65 or is it 71 different genders now-although born as a human male I self identify as a Silverback Gorilla, sometimes a wild stallion.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> juanita broaddrick does not have a credible story under today's legal system. She has claimed at one time or another that Bill Clinton raped her in 1978, although she did not file a police report or press charges at the time.
> 
> ever since, for 38 long years, broaddrick's story has been on-again-off-again. At one time she filed an affidavit testifying that the act had indeed taken place. Then she recanted the affidavit. Then she recanted the recantation.
> 
> there is room in this world for a valid discussion about why so many women do not come forward immediately to press charges against their abusers. This question was aired repeatedly after the gian ghomeshi trial.
> 
> but this thread has nothing to do with the issue of delayed rape accusations. In 2016, a personnage behaving like juanita broaddrick forfeits any right to be taken seriously. An examination of her twitter account shows her to be an extreme alt-right, all the way down to paranoid belief in control of the planet by Illuminati.
> 
> as it happens, i did view the "press conference" that donald trump held immediately prior to the 2nd debate, where he presented the 4 women who would allege sexual abuse by bill or hillary clinton.
> 
> after the debate, this "press conference" was the first item to be universally condemned by republicans who began fleeing the GOP.
> 
> it was one of the most pathetic "press conferences" i've ever witnessed. Trump displayed 4 frightened, non-communicative, dysfunctional women like so many head of cattle. It was interesting to watch the small number of reporters who bothered to cover this "press conference." They filed hesitantly into the room, with body language that suggested embarassment at even being there. In effect, the photographers were being shown a quartet of visibly maimed & pitiful creatures, who for some reason were insisting on showing ancient injuries to the nation.
> 
> after 38 years, no one can take juanita broaddrick seriously. Reportedly in 1978, at the time of the alleged clinton incident, broaddrick was having an affair with a man who was not her then-husband. Subsequently she divorced the original husband & married the lover. However the 2nd marriage also broke down, apparently over broaddrick's obsession across all the years with a few wispy recollections of what she believed had been a clinton encounter in 1978.
> 
> 
> .


Blah blah blah-the funniest part of your long winded summation to the jury was the part about Broaddrick thinking the global economy is controlled by powerful people and these powerful people work together for their mutual benefit-wow what a crazy crazy theory-who exactly is running this place anyway-Humble Pie or Olivaw?


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> then part of her job will be grooming the successor? now _that_ will be interesting ... spring, summer & fall of 2020
> 
> will the GOP have had a chance to get itself back on track by 2020?


I hope so. American needs a viable conservative alternative. Paul Ryan and Reince Priebus seem like decent guys and they can rebuild if the alt-righters will get out of the way. I can well imagine a centrist candidate like Marco Rubio winning the presidency in 2020.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> It is just good luck for the world's most renowned and famous rapist-Bill Clinton-that the guy opposing Bill and Hillary can be sold to the braindead sheep as also a rapist.


Donald Trump doesn't help matters by behaving like a entitled, lecherous perv.


----------



## andrewf

TomB19 said:


> Agreed but is that really the worst thing about Trump?
> 
> How many men have engaged in locker room talk? I would think every one. Trump just made the mistake of doing it on a hot mike. I think most people would be smart enough to tone it down when wearing a microphone but Trump may be sufficiently comfortable wearing a mic that he relaxed and boasted on as normal.
> 
> That was low class but it's important to distinguish between what he said and that he did not physically grab anyone by the genetalia.
> 
> IMO, it was more telling of how much confidence he has and how boastful he is. That is the kind of confidence that is required to succeed in business.
> 
> In this case, I think the Democrat base is making too much of it.


Guy here. Never joked about raping anyone. Not something I consider amusing.

I'll add that I have almost never heard anyone talk like that in my life. But then, I'm a millenial and not a 70 year old entitled creep born with a silver spoon. Maybe if I were forty years older and grew up around rich douches, I would have heard more talk like this.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> And I thought you were politically correct-this is Kathleen Wynne's Ontario-there are not 2 genders-there are 65 or is it 71 different genders now-although born as a human male I self identify as a Silverback Gorilla, sometimes a wild stallion.


I thought you were an Apache helicopter.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Guy here. Never joked about raping anyone. Not something I consider amusing.
> 
> I'll add that I have almost never heard anyone talk like that in my life. But then, I'm a millenial and not a 70 year old entitled creep born with a silver spoon. Maybe if I were forty years older and grew up around rich douches, I would have heard more talk like this.


You're a millennial, so your life experience is sorely lacking. Most millennials suffer from extreme political correctness and their heads would probably explode if they had to spend a day on a construction site with crude men, or ladies night with tipsy women watching male strippers. I've done both and in many cases, the women are far worse than the men.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> I thought you were an Apache helicopter.


Now you are getting weird-you are not even talking about living things-even Wynne would consider this far out-but since you mentioned it some days I am a 1972 Eldorado convertible in mint condition.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Blah blah blah-the funniest part of your long winded summation to the jury was the part about Broaddrick thinking the global economy is controlled by powerful people and these powerful people work together for their mutual benefit-wow what a crazy crazy theory-who exactly is running this place anyway-Humble Pie or Olivaw?


Those of us who aren't still in high school have sat through years of Juanita Broderick. Fairly, or unfairly, many of us view her as less than credible. Donald Trump himself said that very thing on numerous occasions.

Trump chose to trot her out this year. He undermined the dignity of the American presidential race and he undermined his own campaign.


----------



## olivaw

I'm not a millennial, I'm around 60. I've heard plenty of guy talk but I never heard a guy brag about sexual assault like that. 

The tape might have blown over if Trump had not tried to use it to go after Bill Clinton. Silly man.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Blah blah blah-the funniest part of your long winded summation to the jury was the part about Broaddrick thinking the global economy is controlled by powerful people and these powerful people work together for their mutual benefit-wow what a crazy crazy theory-who exactly is running this place anyway-Humble Pie or Olivaw?



nelley you've told us repeatedly how you yourself are an abject, devoted, slavish believer in the Illuminati

don't forget your roots nelley. You believe that a small number of elites & globalists control the universe. Eternally effing up, sucking off & robbing billions of regular people who have all finally gotten damn stinking angry. Now at long last the mobs have found their saviour & he is ready to do whatever is necessary to end the injustice. 

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> nelley you've told us repeatedly how you yourself are an abject, devoted, slavish believer in the Illuminati
> 
> don't forget your roots nelley. You believe that a small number of elites & globalists control the universe. Eternally effing up, sucking off & robbing billions of regular people who have all finally gotten damn stinking angry. Now at long last the mobs have found their saviour & he is ready to do whatever is necessary to end the injustice.
> 
> .


JEEZ-even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while-you are learning little grasshopper-but your education has just started-you are like a weed in the desert hoping for a drop of wisdom-you make me feel that all is not lost.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> You're a millennial, so your life experience is sorely lacking. Most millennials suffer from extreme political correctness and their heads would probably explode if they had to spend a day on a construction site with crude men, or ladies night with tipsy women watching male strippers. I've done both and in many cases, the women are far worse than the men.


Those aren't locker rooms. I cut people more slack when they are drunk/partying. Trump famously doesn't drink, so there goes that excuse.

So bass, do the people you hang out with regularly talk about how they force themselves on women because they can get away with it?


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Now you are getting weird-you are not even talking about living things-even Wynne would consider this far out-but since you mentioned it some days I am a 1972 Eldorado convertible in mint condition.


Welcome to the internet old man:

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-sexually-identify-as-an-attack-helicopter


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> JEEZ-even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while-you are learning little grasshopper-but your education has just started-you are like a weed in the desert hoping for a drop of wisdom-you make me feel that all is not lost.



i imagine Pol Pot used to think like that while he was proselytizing to the killer Khmer Rouge masses in cambodia, always desperate for a convert

hitler as well, in the early years as he was coming to power in germany


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Welcome to the internet old man:
> 
> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-sexually-identify-as-an-attack-helicopter


That is kinda weird-I didn't realize this is a whole subculture-Kathleen better give us a grant.


----------



## andrewf

It's the anti-SJW movement, which I am mostly sympathetic to. Which is why I am amused when I'm accused of being an SJW (just because a disapprove about creepy old men bragging about assaulting women and sneaking into women's changerooms, *because he can*).


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i imagine Pol Pot used to think like that while he was proselytizing to the killer Khmer Rouge masses in cambodia, always desperate for a convert
> 
> hitler as well, in the early years as he was coming to power in germany


Now that you mention him Adolf wasn't happy about Crooked Hillary being thrown into the van https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwjZI2V0qh4


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> That was low class but it's important to distinguish between what he said and that he did not physically grab anyone by the genetalia.
> 
> IMO, it was more telling of how much confidence he has and how boastful he is. That is the kind of confidence that is required to succeed in business.
> 
> In this case, I think the Democrat base is making too much of it.


Two women have come forward alleging that Trump made unwanted attempts to touch their genitals.

Jessica Leeds was sitting beside Trump on an airplane in first class. After the meal the arm rest disappeared and Trump
started touching and kissing her upper body. He then put his hand under her skirt. She got up and went to another seat in the back of the plane.

Kirstin Anderson reported a similar incident.



> Kristin Anderson was deep in conversation with acquaintances at a crowded Manhattan nightspot and did not notice the figure to her right on a red velvet couch — until, she recalls, his fingers slid under her miniskirt, moved up her inner thigh and touched her vagina through her underwear.
> 
> Anderson shoved the hand away, fled the couch and turned to take her first good look at the man who had touched her, she said.
> 
> She recognized him as Donald Trump: “He was so distinctive looking — with the hair and the eyebrows. I mean, nobody else has those eyebrows.”
> 
> At the time of the incident, which Anderson said took place in the early 1990s, she was in her early 20s, trying to make it as a model. She was paying the bills by working as a makeup artist and restaurant hostess. Trump was a big celebrity whose face was all over the tabloids and a regular presence on the New York club scene.
> 
> The episode, as Anderson described it, lasted no more than 30 seconds. Anderson said she and her companions were “very grossed out and weirded out” and thought, “Okay, Donald is gross. We all know he’s gross. Let’s just move on.”



There are also reports of unwanted kissing by Trump of a contestant on 'The Apprentice' and of beauty contest contestants.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Before you go along with the idea that court ordered responses have been provided and Rusty has them, perhaps you should ask him why Internet news sources suggest otherwise? "

Here you are TomB19, right from Judicial Watch. If your Internet news sources suggest otherwise you need better news sources.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-...new-hillary-clinton-email-answers-given-oath/


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> Do you know these figures are fabricated or are you just a sheep parroting a chain mail into this forum?
> 
> Mitt spent close to half a billion. With superpac spending, the Republican spend in 2012 was about $1.25B.
> 
> The Obama campaign and superpacs combined to spend about $800B in 2012, by comparison.
> 
> How stupid do you think we are? Seriously? $42M will not buy many prime time spots and we all had televisions in 2012.
> 
> Shall I rip apart the other years?


You haven't ripped apart anything yet. I was quoting figures from the Republican Party ONLY, to show the LACK of support the Republicans are giving their own candidate. The point is that Trump is playing a lone hand. We already know he has almost no support from SuperPacs and big donors. I don't expect him to win but you must admit there is a lot of support out there from the public in spite of his shoestring campaign.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> It's the anti-SJW movement, which I am mostly sympathetic to. Which is why I am amused when I'm accused of being an SJW (just because a disapprove about creepy old men bragging about assaulting women and sneaking into women's changerooms, *because he can*).


I can attest to the fact that Andrewf fancies himself as anti-SJW. He's prone to making sweeping bizarre generalizations about those who disagree with him. I think he learned it from bass player but it's possible that he learned it from graphic magazines (comic books).


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> You haven't ripped apart anything yet. I was quoting figures from the Republican Party ONLY, to show the LACK of support the Republicans are giving their own candidate. The point is that Trump is playing a lone hand. We already know he has almost no support from SuperPacs and big donors. I don't expect him to win but you must admit there is a lot of support out there from the public in spite of his shoestring campaign.


Pure, uncut, bullshit.

You cited $42M in 2012.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance

Romney spent $460M
RNC spent $380M


----------



## andrewf

^Uh oh, looks like I pissed off both sides. Sweeping generalizations are sometimes made (though I think you exaggerate) for convenience, given that this is a comment forum and I'm not writing essays. Occasionally when I have time I try to be a bit more nuanced, but often I only have time to shitpost. And let's be honest, nuance is often lost on many people and only serves to get one in more trouble.

And yes, I learned it from graphic magazines that I read on the electronic typewriter. Hardly at all from the talkies.

Bass is, if anything, alt-right or perhaps just a garden variety Limbaugh conservative. SJWs are regressive/authoritarian left. SJW is a pejorative that the movement itself seemed to adopt. I am more of a classical liberal, or perhaps just to the left of that.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Pure, uncut, bullshit.

You cited $42M in 2012."


I'm talking about TV ad spending ONLY by the Republican National Committee ONLY. The point being that the RNC is NOT supporting Trump the way they did other candidates in the past. I thought this was interesting but not exactly news since we all know that Trump is a maverick and has not had much support from the Republican party.

Source - http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/rnc-donald-trump-ad-spending-229711

Can you tell us how much total financial support Trump has had, compared to other candidates like Romney?


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> ^Uh oh, looks like I pissed off both sides. Sweeping generalizations are sometimes made (though I think you exaggerate) for convenience, given that this is a comment forum and I'm not writing essays. Occasionally when I have time I try to be a bit more nuanced, but often I only have time to shitpost. And let's be honest, nuance is often lost on many people and only serves to get one in more trouble.
> 
> And yes, I learned it from graphic magazines that I read on the electronic typewriter. Hardly at all from the talkies.
> 
> Bass is, if anything, alt-right or perhaps just a garden variety Limbaugh conservative. SJWs are regressive/authoritarian left. SJW is a pejorative that the movement itself seemed to adopt. I am more of a classical liberal, or perhaps just to the left of that.


Who knows what you are but you sure as hell aren't liberal-that sick demented criminal puppet you support is hell bent on WW3 just like Jill Stein says http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/1...than-hillary-who-would-start-war-with-russia/


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> ... I self identify as a Silverback Gorilla




nelley only hours ago a large silverback gorilla named Kumbuka escaped from the London zoo.

evidently earlier today Kumbuka suddenly attacked a glass viewing window. Visitors were told not to look the big ape in the eye since the action would "make him angry."
.











.

shortly afterwards Kumbuka escaped through what is reported as a cage door mysteriously left wide open.

it's reported that Kumbuka escaped into a secondary zoo enclosure. Sirens went off. Twenty stalwart british bobbies armed with guns promptly materialized to get the primate under control. Police helicopters whirled overhead. Terrified zoo visitors were herded into a cafeteria.

eventually Kumbuka was sedated with a tranquilizer gun & hauled back into his cage, but not before a London zoo employee had told a reporter that the big ape is a "f***ing psycho."


nelley was that you? did you go ape bananas after a bunch of pro-brexit alt-right conspirators pried your cage door open & looked you in the eye?


.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "Pure, uncut, bullshit.
> 
> You cited $42M in 2012."
> 
> 
> I'm talking about TV ad spending ONLY by the Republican National Committee ONLY. The point being that the RNC is NOT supporting Trump the way they did other candidates in the past. I thought this was interesting but not exactly news since we all know that Trump is a maverick and has not had much support from the Republican party.
> 
> Source - http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/rnc-donald-trump-ad-spending-229711
> 
> Can you tell us how much total financial support Trump has had, compared to other candidates like Romney?



^ And so? Seems like evidence of a failure of leadership on Trump's part.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Who knows what you are but you sure as hell aren't liberal-that sick demented criminal puppet you support is hell bent on WW3 just like Jill Stein says http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/1...than-hillary-who-would-start-war-with-russia/


Hillary is not my favourite. She's just less awful than the alternative, an admitted low bar. The Republicans could have nominated someone (just about anyone) else and won this election. The GOP base instead decided to choose a dangerous buffoon and will lose the election instead.

My support or opposition is irrelevant. I can't vote, and not many eligible voters would be reading what I write here. I don't know why anyone is trying to persuade anyone else here--you're not having impact on the outcome.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> ^Uh oh, looks like I pissed off both sides. Sweeping generalizations are sometimes made (though I think you exaggerate) for convenience, given that this is a comment forum and I'm not writing essays. Occasionally when I have time I try to be a bit more nuanced, but often I only have time to shitpost. And let's be honest, nuance is often lost on many people and only serves to get one in more trouble.
> 
> And yes, I learned it from graphic magazines that I read on the electronic typewriter. Hardly at all from the talkies.
> 
> Bass is, if anything, alt-right or perhaps just a garden variety Limbaugh conservative. SJWs are regressive/authoritarian left. SJW is a pejorative that the movement itself seemed to adopt. I am more of a classical liberal, or perhaps just to the left of that.


Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Was just having a little fun with you.  The target of my derision was terms like SJW or PC.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Hillary is not my favourite. She's just less awful than the alternative, an admitted low bar. The Republicans could have nominated someone (just about anyone) else and won this election. The GOP base instead decided to choose a dangerous buffoon and will lose the election instead.
> 
> My support or opposition is irrelevant. I can't vote, and not many eligible voters would be reading what I write here. I don't know why anyone is trying to persuade anyone else here--you're not having impact on the outcome.


Trump has a shot because a lot of Crooked Hillary's "supporters" are just like you-not really interested enough to even bother to vote-the sick demented criminal puppet can't even fill a high school gym when she can manage to crawl out of her facility.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> How many men have engaged in locker room talk? I would think every one. Trump just made the mistake of doing it on a hot mike. I think most people would be smart enough to tone it down when wearing a microphone but Trump may be sufficiently comfortable wearing a mic that he relaxed and boasted on as normal.



this is the damning detail that proves how unfit donald trump is. He wore the mike & he deliberately boasted into the mike the whole time. On the bus. On the sidewalk. In the studio. He wanted his words to be recorded for eternity.

this is not locker room talk. There's something wrong with this kind of exhibitionist.

.


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Was just having a little fun with you.  The target of my derision was terms like SJW or PC.


Labels are useful. Of course not everyone (or even most) neatly fit into tidy boxes. But ideologies can be catalogued in this way.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Trump has a shot because a lot of Crooked Hillary's "supporters" are just like you-not really interested enough to even bother to vote-the sick demented criminal puppet can't even fill a high school gym when she can manage to crawl out of her facility.


If I could vote, I would vote for Hillary. I cannot (as is the case for >95% of people who might read this), so it is a moot point.

I would also have more faith in Hillary/DNC's GOTV than Trump, given his organizational incompetence and his war with the RNC.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> If I could vote, I would vote for Hillary. I cannot (as is the case for >95% of people who might read this), so it is a moot point.


I don't buy it-you would post here or play video games or hang out on Facebook or Tinder or Grinder-voting is too much work.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> Labels are useful. Of course not everyone (or even most) neatly fit into tidy boxes. But ideologies can be catalogued in this way.


Ideologies perhaps, but terms like SJW and PC are not ideologies.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

What kind of person would post an ad like this on Craigslist?

Multiple Positions (NYC area)

Seeking staff members for multiple positions in a large, New York-based corporation known for its real estate investments, fake universities, steaks, and wine. The boss has very strict standards for female employees, ranging from the women who take lunch orders (must be hot) to the women who oversee multi-million dollar construction projects (must maintain hotness demonstrated at time of hiring).

Title: Honey Bunch (that’s what the boss will call you)

Job requirements:

* No gaining weight on the job (we’ll take some “before” pictures when you start to use later as evidence)
* Must be open to public humiliation and open-press workouts if you do gain weight on the job
* A willingness to evaluate other women’s hotness for the boss’ satisfaction is a plus
* Should be proficient in lying about age if the boss thinks you’re too old
Working mothers not preferred (the boss finds pumping breast milk disgusting, and worries they’re too focused on their children).

About us:

We’re proud to maintain a “fun” and “friendly work environment, where the boss is always available to meet with his employees. Like it or not, he may greet you with a kiss on the lips or grope you under the meeting table.

Interested applicants should send resume, cover letter, and headshot to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>


Oh wait! That was Hillary Clinton's, posted by her staff last May. 

"As long as all the offensive **** is verbatim I’m fine with it. "

They've been scamming the news for a long time folks.

https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/12803


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> What kind of person would post an ad like this on Craigslist?
> 
> Multiple Positions (NYC area)
> 
> Seeking staff members for multiple positions in a large, New York-based corporation known for its real estate investments, fake universities, steaks, and wine. The boss has very strict standards for female employees, ranging from the women who take lunch orders (must be hot) to the women who oversee multi-million dollar construction projects (must maintain hotness demonstrated at time of hiring).
> 
> Title: Honey Bunch (that’s what the boss will call you)
> 
> Job requirements:
> 
> * No gaining weight on the job (we’ll take some “before” pictures when you start to use later as evidence)
> * Must be open to public humiliation and open-press workouts if you do gain weight on the job
> * A willingness to evaluate other women’s hotness for the boss’ satisfaction is a plus
> * Should be proficient in lying about age if the boss thinks you’re too old
> Working mothers not preferred (the boss finds pumping breast milk disgusting, and worries they’re too focused on their children).
> 
> About us:
> 
> We’re proud to maintain a “fun” and “friendly work environment, where the boss is always available to meet with his employees. Like it or not, he may greet you with a kiss on the lips or grope you under the meeting table.
> 
> Interested applicants should send resume, cover letter, and headshot to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> 
> 
> Oh wait! That was Hillary Clinton's, posted by her staff last May.
> 
> https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/12803


The reality is that you could hit these zombies over the head with this blatant stuff and nothing would sink in-these morons think that these women "accusers" just miraculously appeared just as Bill Clinton's rape history is being made public.


----------



## andrewf

SJWs are typically proponents of intersectional feminism ("social justice" in an Orwellian sense). It is the most closely associated ideology, but is also related to progressivism more broadly.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> What kind of person would post an ad like this on Craigslist?
> 
> Multiple Positions (NYC area)
> 
> Seeking staff members for multiple positions in a large, New York-based corporation known for its real estate investments, fake universities, steaks, and wine. The boss has very strict standards for female employees, ranging from the women who take lunch orders (must be hot) to the women who oversee multi-million dollar construction projects (must maintain hotness demonstrated at time of hiring).
> 
> Title: Honey Bunch (that’s what the boss will call you)
> 
> Job requirements:
> 
> * No gaining weight on the job (we’ll take some “before” pictures when you start to use later as evidence)
> * Must be open to public humiliation and open-press workouts if you do gain weight on the job
> * A willingness to evaluate other women’s hotness for the boss’ satisfaction is a plus
> * Should be proficient in lying about age if the boss thinks you’re too old
> Working mothers not preferred (the boss finds pumping breast milk disgusting, and worries they’re too focused on their children).
> 
> About us:
> 
> We’re proud to maintain a “fun” and “friendly work environment, where the boss is always available to meet with his employees. Like it or not, he may greet you with a kiss on the lips or grope you under the meeting table.
> 
> Interested applicants should send resume, cover letter, and headshot to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> 
> 
> Oh wait! That was Hillary Clinton's, posted by her staff last May.
> 
> "As long as all the offensive **** is verbatim I’m fine with it. "
> 
> They've been scamming the news for a long time folks.
> 
> https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/12803


Sounds like a fine troll. And it reads like satire to me.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> SJWs are typically proponents of intersectional feminism ("social justice" in an Orwellian sense). It is the most closely associated ideology, but is also related to progressivism more broadly.


You forgot to mention that these rocket scientists think Radical Islam is the greatest thing since sliced bread.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> You forgot to mention that these rocket scientists think Radical Islam is the greatest thing since sliced bread.


They are friendly to islamism, but are not islamists per se.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Sounds like a fine troll. And it reads like satire to me.


If this hadn't been exposed by Wikileaks (lets say CNN had spoonfed it to you) you would be the first one whining endlessly about Trump and "sexism".


----------



## mrPPincer

If the bus talk was the nail in the camel's back, Michelle Obama's talk to New Hampshire was the final coffin straw for mr can't stfu.

Anybody else think the USA may have a superb candidate locked in if she wants it 8 years from now?


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> SJWs are typically proponents of intersectional feminism ("social justice" in an Orwellian sense). It is the most closely associated ideology, but is also related to progressivism more broadly.


intersectional feminism is an academic term. There is nothing Orwellian about it. Social Justice Warrior is an unrelated derogatory term.


----------



## andrewf

Quibbling about terminology doesn't disprove the existence of an ideology. Agreed that SJW is a pejorative, playing off the term "social justice", which is an innocuous sounding idea (who could be opposed to justice?), but pernicious once you scratch the surface. I guess the problem comes down to disagreements over what is just (the term itself is meaningless, for this reason, which is why I call it Orwellian).


----------



## Nelley

Here is a good video showing the future of Toronto under the wise leadership of Trudeau and Wynne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek1ENuEyWHE


----------



## andrewf

^And here is where I have to roll my eyes some more. I don't think Europe has handled the mass migration very well, but I don't think Canada is in any real danger of hundreds of thousands of migrants showing up uninvited like this.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> Quibbling about terminology doesn't disprove the existence of an ideology. Agreed that SJW is a pejorative, playing off the term "social justice", which is an innocuous sounding idea (who could be opposed to justice?), but pernicious once you scratch the surface. I guess the problem comes down to disagreements over what is just (the term itself is meaningless, for this reason, which is why I call it Orwellian).


I don't want to quibble over terminology either but terms like SJW and PC are too often used to attack individuals and not ideas. When they are used to denounce ideas, they are used to dismiss them without due consideration. I've yet to see the terms used constructively on a forum.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> Sounds like a fine troll. And it reads like satire to me.


It came from a Wikileak of Emails from Clinton's office. So ya, kind of a troll.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> They are friendly to islamism, but are not islamists per se.


They will knuckle under to anyone who doesn't buy their bullshit and threatens violence if they say the wrong thing. Compared to a typical Muslim radical Donald Trump is like Captain Kangaroo but never a peep out of them.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> Here is a good video showing the future of Toronto under the wise leadership of Trudeau and Wynne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek1ENuEyWHE


Trudeau and Wynne will never see it. They will live out their lives in mansions behind walls and gates, with armed guards and they will never see or admit what they have done.

Angela Merkel admitted she handled the refugee problem badly which surprised me. I don't expect such honesty from a politician.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> ^And here is where I have to roll my eyes some more. I don't think Europe has handled the mass migration very well, but I don't think Canada is in any real danger of hundreds of thousands of migrants showing up uninvited like this.


Not uninvited, no. Trudeau has already invited 25,000 as a starter with more to come. That's about 100 jumbo jets full for openers. On top of the millions of immigrants already here.

Don't forget once they are here they can sponsor their relatives, and those relatives can sponsor their relatives. It's not hard for one to sponsor 10 and those 10 to sponsor 100 over the course of 10 or 20 years.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Latest from Scott (Dilbert) Adams: the election campaign is over. Hillary won. The accusations plus the "octopus" kill shot are fatal to Trump's chances. Doesn't matter if they are true or not, or whether Hillary has done worse. Nobody cares about that stuff on the level of persuasion.

About a month ago Adams noticed that Trump was no longer the only Master Persuader in the ring. The Hillary camp was employing their own persuasion expert. He recognized the touch of a Master Persuader he calls "Godzilla" in case you wonder what he meant by that.

So, the US is going to get a woman President and for the next four years everything that goes wrong will be her fault.


The Era of Women

Posted October 13th, 2016 @ 12:04am in #Trump #Clinton #gary johnson

If the latest groping/kissing allegations against Trump hold up – and I assume they will, based on quantity if not credibility – it won’t matter what Wikileaks says about Clinton. She will win easily.

If Clinton wins, you’ll wonder if this invalidates the Master Persuader Hypothesis. The short answer is no, because the concept doesn’t account for unknowns of this magnitude. If a meteor had struck Trump a day before election day, it wouldn’t say much about his skill as a persuader. The Master Persuasion Hypothesis worked splendidly until the double-whammy of the Access Hollywood tape and the “octopus” meteor. 

Trump could still win, but only if some new and unexpected meteor strikes Clinton. Here’s how I see it through the persuasion filter:

1. Facts and policies stopped mattering months ago. No one cares.

2. Wikileaks has no meteors to offer. The Wikileaks misdeeds involve people who are not Clinton, and they involve issues that are boring and a bit complicated. The public will not be much influenced by them.

3. The “octopus” line about Trump is engineered persuasion of the highest order. It makes the story deeply visual and extra-creepy. Godzilla, or someone similarly skilled, is probably behind that word. It’s too engineered for a civilian to concoct during an interview. That’s professional work. And it’s probably a golden stake through Trump’s political heart. (Well played.)

This is a good time to remind you that I endorse Gary Johnson because he only touches himself. 

Anyway, getting to the point of this post, if Clinton wins, it will be because women voted for her in landslide proportions while men (on average) preferred Trump. And that means two things of historic importance.

1. We will elect the first woman to be President of the United States. That’s good for everyone.

and…

2. Everything that goes wrong with the country from this point forward is women’s fault.

I feel some relief about that. The next four years are likely to be some of the worst in our country’s history. The Republican establishment will make sure of that because a failed America is in their best interest in the short run. Four years from now they want to offer their chosen savior (Paul Ryan). Trump would have a good chance of bullying the Republican establishment as he has done so far. Clinton, not so much. She’ll be buried in scandals, both real and imagined.

Men had a good run. We invented almost everything, and that’s cool. But we also started all of the wars and committed most of the crimes. It’s a mixed record to be sure. Now it’s time for something different, apparently.

Hillary Clinton is all yours, ladies. She and her alleged rapist husband are your brand now. Wear them well.


----------



## sags

Meh...........all this talk of biased liberal media, is rich considering all the years that conservative media like Fox News, and a gaggle of conservative radio hosts have been blasting out their daily drivel........Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Anne Coulter, Sean Hannity...........have been busy telling Americans everything would be heavenly if only corporations could pay no taxes and operate under no rules, the rich could keep more to sprinkle among the unwashed masses, people didn't have healthcare, everyone could own any guns they felt like, and more people were put into prison.

It is about time main stream media stopped trying to walk a middle line and picked a side. It was badly needed to balance the media playing field that favored the conservative narrative for so long. The vacuum of progressive thought went on for far too long.

Just in the nick of time along comes Donald Trump. A creation of the conservative media stirring up the good folks with promises of making America great again, while possessing no plan to do so and blasting his way through any common sense or reason.

Trump is a target so large for the newly minted "biased" liberal media, ......they couldn't miss if they tossed wet noodles at him.

A live.....walking, talking, sputtering, womanizing reprobate from the good old days, unashamed of what he has said and done and determined to stumble to the finish line, regardless of the cost. Trump is a compilation of everything wrong with right wing conservative ideology all wrapped up into one cartoonish example.

Yup, the media balance is just about right these days, I would say.

Go ahead you biased liberal media you............Trump is all yours.


----------



## sags

President Obama to Republicans.......what took you so long to dump Trump ?

President Obama to Christians.......forgiveness and redemption should be offered to people, but that doesn't mean you should vote for them as President of the most powerful country in the world.

President Obama to Americans.......come on folks.


----------



## indexxx

mrPPincer said:


> If the bus talk was the nail in the camel's back, Michelle Obama's talk to New Hampshire was the final coffin straw for mr can't stfu.
> 
> Anybody else think the USA may have a superb candidate locked in if she wants it 8 years from now?


I do like her, and she is very sharp and well spoken but not seeing credentials and experience for top-echelon government leadership.


----------



## new dog

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Not uninvited, no. Trudeau has already invited 25,000 as a starter with more to come. That's about 100 jumbo jets full for openers. On top of the millions of immigrants already here.
> 
> Don't forget once they are here they can sponsor their relatives, and those relatives can sponsor their relatives. It's not hard for one to sponsor 10 and those 10 to sponsor 100 over the course of 10 or 20 years.


So this can happen Rusty, if so that is scary. Do you think this is what happened to Sweden?


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Meh...........all this talk of biased liberal media, is rich considering all the years that conservative media like Fox News, and a gaggle of conservative radio hosts have been blasting out their daily drivel........Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Anne Coulter, Sean Hannity...........have been busy telling Americans everything would be heavenly if only corporations could pay no taxes and operate under no rules, the rich could keep more to sprinkle among the unwashed masses, people didn't have healthcare, everyone could own any guns they felt like, and more people were put into prison.
> 
> It is about time main stream media stopped trying to walk a middle line and picked a side. It was badly needed to balance the media playing field that favored the conservative narrative for so long. The vacuum of progressive thought went on for far too long.
> 
> Just in the nick of time along comes Donald Trump. A creation of the conservative media stirring up the good folks with promises of making America great again, while possessing no plan to do so and blasting his way through any common sense or reason.
> 
> Trump is a target so large for the newly minted "biased" liberal media, ......they couldn't miss if they tossed wet noodles at him.
> 
> A live.....walking, talking, sputtering, womanizing reprobate from the good old days, unashamed of what he has said and done and determined to stumble to the finish line, regardless of the cost. Trump is a compilation of everything wrong with right wing conservative ideology all wrapped up into one cartoonish example.
> 
> Yup, the media balance is just about right these days, I would say.
> 
> Go ahead you biased liberal media you............Trump is all yours.


Blah Blah Blah-lood Sags-the main argument in favor of Crooked Hillary is that she is the darling of the global superrich (say in excess of 200 mill net worth) and thus anyone aspiring to success should ignore her faults and misdeeds. The identical argument was used against Brexit. So-your dated premise-which is Republican =rich, Dem=average person party is simply ignorant. Clinton is the choice for the rich, guv workers and the welfare crowd. Trump is for workers, mostly private sector.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Not uninvited, no. Trudeau has already invited 25,000 as a starter with more to come. That's about 100 jumbo jets full for openers. On top of the millions of immigrants already here.
> 
> Don't forget once they are here they can sponsor their relatives, and those relatives can sponsor their relatives. It's not hard for one to sponsor 10 and those 10 to sponsor 100 over the course of 10 or 20 years.


So what are you trying to say? That Canada will become "Canukastan" within a couple of generations?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

new dog said:


> So this can happen Rusty, if so that is scary. Do you think this is what happened to Sweden?


It is what is happening in Sweden now. Europe will be Muslim operating under Sharia law in 50 years with all that implies. White Christians will be an oppressed minority. Look to other Muslim countries if you want to know what that means. 

Canada won't be far behind if Trudeau and his friends have their way. It may already be too late. Oh well we had a good run. It doesn't confront me because I will be dead in 20 years but I feel sorry for the younger people and those with children.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Blah Blah Blah-lood Sags-the main argument in favor of Crooked Hillary is that she is the darling of the global superrich (say in excess of 200 mill net worth) and thus anyone aspiring to success should ignore her faults and misdeeds. The identical argument was used against Brexit. So-your dated premise-which is Republican =rich, Dem=average person party is simply ignorant. Clinton is the choice for the rich, guv workers and the welfare crowd. Trump is for workers, mostly private sector.


Trump is for workers? This narcissistic buffoon spent years trying to convince the world that he was the elite. At 70 years old - he announces that he cares about average people. 

And you believe him? 

Who is the sheep?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Trump is for workers? This narcissistic buffoon spent years trying to convince the world that he was the elite. At 70 years old - he announces that he cares about average people.
> 
> And you believe him?
> 
> Who is the sheep?


Einstein: Your forgot to mention: 1. he will start a nuclear war 2. he is evil Putin's best buddy 3. he is sexist 4. he is racist 5. lousy hairstyle 6. fat 7. white 8. male 9. the evil alt right likes him 10. went on Howard Stern 11. called a woman fat 12. sniffs 13. only Hitler would secure a border 14. blah blah blah blah


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It is what is happening in Sweden now. Europe will be Muslim operating under Sharia law in 50 years with all that implies.


It won't take 50 years.

The problem with having an open society and welcoming everyone is that a country with 50~100M people in a functioning economy can be overwhelmed almost instantly by a country of over 1B people who live in third world conditions.

It seems to me, if we embrace what it means to be an open society, the racial constituents are irrelevant so it shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> It won't take 50 years.


You're right, it won't take long...with declining birth rates of less than 2 children per couple vs. 4 to 6 children per couple for immigrants, plus family sponsors, it will only take 2-3 generations to reach the point of no return.

But, at least for a while, those in power who push for additional immigration can rely on those much needed immigrant votes to keep them in power. Of course, once the tipping point is reached, then those who held power with help from those votes will be pushed aside for a more suitable candidate.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Those who came to Canada to escape whatever lousy shithole they were born in, will turn my country into a shithole, and when they look around for somewhere else to emigrate to, there will be no place left.


----------



## Nelley

Here is a picture of a Toronto weathergirl circa 2030 https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Ladies-Black-Burqa-Dress-Robes-Fancy_60442215079.html


----------



## TomB19

That look is the bomb.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> The niqab and stripper heels look is kind of hot.


You ruined the surprise for everybody else-but yeah kinda hot.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> That look is the bomb.


When you look it is almost like it holds you hostage.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Those who came to Canada to escape whatever lousy shithole they were born in, will turn my country into a shithole, and when they look around for somewhere else to emigrate to, there will be no place left.


You need a lot of assholes to make a shithole. You can find all the assholes at a Trump rally. :cat:


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> You need a lot of assholes to make a shithole. You can find all the assholes at a Trump rally. :cat:


Yup...the assholes are the progressives outside his rallies that start fights and then blame Trump for their actions.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> You need a lot of assholes to make a shithole. You can find all the assholes at a Trump rally. :cat:


It's worse than you think, there are plenty of assholes like that in Canada. So why do we need imported ones?


----------



## bass player

CNN is reporting that Trump has suggested a drug test just before the next debate:

"I think we should take a drug test prior to the debate," Trump said during a rally here. "Because I don't know what's going on with her, but at the beginning of her last debate, she was all pumped up at the beginning, and at the end it was like, huff, take me down. She could barely reach her car."

Of course, Hillary won't submit to one because the last thing she wants people to know is what they're pumping into her to keep her upright


----------



## andrewf

^Uhh, wasn't it Trump who looked like he was coked up, then crashed during the debates? Maybe he's projecting.


----------



## Eder

I think Rusty is making a lot of good points...I worry for our way of life. I have 5 1/2 grandkids and I want to do my best for them. Giving away Canada like we are tending to do is the greatest danger for their future... sorry nothing to say about Trump/Hillary machination... its beyond words how sad I feel for all my American buds.


----------



## new dog

I realize this is zero hedge but just watch the short video of the peaceful migrants in action on a street in France.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-14/scenes-apocalypse-mass-immigration-ruins-streets-france


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> ^Uhh, wasn't it Trump who looked like he was coked up, then crashed during the debates? Maybe he's projecting.


Actually, no. That was just left wing conspiracy nuts making up lies to deflect attention away from Hillary.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> I realize this is zero hedge but just watch the short video of the peaceful migrants in action on a street in France.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-14/scenes-apocalypse-mass-immigration-ruins-streets-france


I'm sure some people would call you a bigot and refer to that as "cultural enrichment"...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

If you are rich enough multiculturalism means do you want Thai food or sushi tonight, or should we try that new Macedonian place? It means if your Filipina maid objects to working 14 hours a day for less than minimum wage you can replace her with a Venezuelan or Columbian. It means you can replace union workers with illegals for 1/4 the wages and no workmen's comp, no insurance, no nothing. If you are rich enough multiculturalism is great, if you are one of the working class or middle class, not so much.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Actually, no. That was just left wing conspiracy nuts making up lies to deflect attention away from Hillary.


Always a conspiracy. He seemed distinctly low-energy to me.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

When I turned on the news and saw the phrase "grab her by the *****" I thought 2LiveCrew had a new album out.

(I stole that from some comic)


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> When I turned on the news and saw the phrase "grab her by the *****" I thought 2LiveCrew had a new album out.
> 
> (I stole that from some comic)


That bubblehead Mrs. Obama is a huge fan of rap music yet has never heard anything as vile as Donald Trump bragging.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> That bubblehead Mrs. Obama is a huge fan of rap music yet has never heard anything as vile as Donald Trump bragging.


And of course Michelle Obama was trembling with outrage over that comment by Trump, but yet she admires cop hating, foul-mouth Beyoncé...once again showing that selective outrage is part of the DNA of all Democrats.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Maybe The Donald should put on blackface and learn to rap - that would go over big I am sure (sarkylert)


----------



## olivaw

Is Beyonce running for president?


----------



## mrPPincer

olivaw said:


> Is Beyonce running for president?


edit - nvm, missed the context somehow (bass player's post upthread).


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> That bubblehead Mrs. Obama is a huge fan of rap music yet has never heard anything as vile as Donald Trump bragging.


I'm curious why you would feel it necessary to insult her?


----------



## olivaw

mrPPincer said:


> I don't get it wtf is that supposed to mean??


Read bass player's post 2972. The alt-right talking point is that Beyonce's language excuses Trump's comments on the bus.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Read bass player's post 2972. The alt-right talking point is that Beyonce's language excuses Trump's comments on the bus.


ALT RIGHT yeah sure. LOOK-I have used the term MSM but a more accurate name is Dinosaur Media-nobody wants it anymore-TV news ratings are dropping yearly like clockwork-newspapers such as the NYT or Wash Post are so worthless as businesses they are used as money losing propaganda machines for oligarchs like Bezos and Carlos Slim-it is dying out-the "alternative" that Crooked Hillary whines about is becoming the only real media now.


----------



## olivaw

Alt-right refers to individuals and organizations that traffic in conspiracy theories and excruciatingly pained logic. Bass player and conspiracy Nelley are unpaid forum representatives for it.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> And of course Michelle Obama was trembling with outrage over that comment by Trump, but yet she admires cop hating, foul-mouth Beyoncé...once again showing that selective outrage is part of the DNA of all Democrats.


What's the point you are attempting to make? I'm outraged by Trump the Rump's bullying persona and his general douchelord idiocy, and I admire Ted Nugent for his incredible guitar playing, humour, still having amazing ***-kicking energy at his age, and his songwriting. But I wouldn't vote for Nugent, either, because he's a right-wing nut bag and a misogynist as well. He's the fun uncle you go 4x4 fishing with- but I wouldn't give him the presidency.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It's all bullshit. The people getting the vapors at Trump's trash talk are the same people who fawn over the most foul mouthed rappers singers and media stars. I think that is the point they were trying to make.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"I think we should take a drug test prior to the debate," Trump said 

Never mind the drug test, how about an intelligence test? Or possibly a psychiatric examination?

Seriously, I would like to see every candidate take an intelligence test and a personality evaluation and publish them before an election. I consider this more important than their tax returns.


----------



## sags

_It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. _

_Theodore Roosevelt._

There is only one candidate who has been in the arena...........Hillary Clinton.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Read bass player's post 2972. The alt-right talking point is that Beyonce's language excuses Trump's comments on the bus.


Nope...that isn't what I said. You often fail to grasp the obvious, even when it is clearly explained. 

Go back and read it again...if you still don't get it, ask someone to explain it.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It's all bullshit. The people getting the vapors at Trump's trash talk are the same people who fawn over the most foul mouthed rappers singers and media stars. I think that is the point they were trying to make.


They might have a point if it were true but the Beyonce talking point relies on falsehoods and exaggerations. There's even a Snopes entry. http://www.snopes.com/2016/10/15/role-model-wars/

Michelle Obama didn't fawn over Beyonce. Barack Obama said that Beyonce was a role model for "_her $7 million donation to help the homeless in Houston, fundraising efforts to assist with the Flint water crisis in Michigan, the formation of the BEYGood Initiative, and her other global charity efforts (such as promoting Education, Health and Justice for girls and women around the world)_".

Notwithstanding that a candidate for leader of the free world is judged by a higher standard than a popular star. Donald Trump's boorish behaviour, short attention span and ignorance may be acceptable for a reality TV personality. It's not acceptable for a president.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It's all bullshit. The people getting the vapors at Trump's trash talk are the same people who fawn over the most foul mouthed rappers singers and media stars. I think that is the point they were trying to make.


That was exactly my point, however, olivaw is unable to grasp even the simplest concept.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Obama Praises Foul-Mouthed Rapper
by Don Irvine on July 10, 2008
Print:
Share:

Fans of Lil’ Wayne probably thought it was great when Barack Obama praised the rapper at a campaign event, but just check out some of his lyrics.

From the Swampland.

Take the lyrics of Lollipop, the aforementioned song which, if you have not yet heard on the radio, then your children certainly have. As is the habit of most modern Hip Hop, it is a song of sexual conquest, with Lil’ Wayne boasting of his ability to attract women and enjoy their company. Not so interesting, you think? Check out this set of lyrical couplets:

I get her on top / She drop it like it’s hot

And when I’m at the bottom / She Hillary Rodham

In the song, these lines are meant as a compliment both to the girl in his bed and the former presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton, whose take-charge, ready-from-day-one attitude the artist apparently admires. Of course, the precise context of the compliment is insulting to millions of Americans, but then the Lil’ Wayne oeuvre is not exactly sensitive to such considerations.

It makes you wonder if Obama has actually ever listened to the rapper or was just trying to portray himself as hip.


[This took about 30 seconds to find.]


----------



## olivaw

^ Wow, great find Rusty. That's from 2008. Do you think it will stop Barack Obama from becoming president in November 2008?


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> There is only one candidate who has been in the arena...........Hillary Clinton.


You have a point sags. The comparison between the candidates' preparedness is being forgotten in the brouhaha over the bus tape and the allegations. 

Hillary Clinton is the better candidate. She was winning before the tape was released.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> ^ Wow, great find Rusty. That's from 2008. Do you think it will stop Barack Obama from becoming president in November 2008?


No but it makes him a hypocrite in 2016.


----------



## sags

Yemen based surface to surface missile attacks were once again launched at a US warship.

Russia is sending warships traveling along the coast of Britain on their way to Syria. The British say Putin is playing mind games.

There is only one person running for President with the knowledge and experience to deal with critical issues such as these.

Donald Trump isn't the one.


----------



## sags

Trump's family and campaign team have been telling him for months to "act" Presidential.

They know he can never actually be Presidential. They just want him to "act" like he is or could be.

Trump can't focus long enough to even manage that. Trump has a one track mind and everyone knows what that is.

Republican leaders should step up and dump Trump. Replace him with Mike Pence and another VP.

They won't win but they can reduce the damage Trump is going to inflict in the last few weeks of the campaign, while sending a strong message to the wingnuts they are no longer welcome in the Republican Party.


----------



## olivaw

^Is there a mechanism for the Republicans to dump Trump? He appears disinclined to step aside on his own.


----------



## indexxx

Trump seems to be coming increasingly unhinged:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trump-won-t-quietly-151047925.html

Carlos Slim? Seriously? What would he care about T-Rump? Talk about conspiracy paranoia- Donny takes the cake. (mmm... cake...)

I think he's realizing that he's way out of his league by getting into politics, and he doesn't like things he can't control. He's used to buying his way into or out of anything he wants, using his money and position as a bullying tool. Now he's finding out that the public sector just won't accept it. i'd be surprised if he doesn't blow a gasket before November 08. Or wait- is it the 28th?!? Must be his Alzheimer's setting in. Oh, I forgot- it's Hillary who is suffering from all the mystery diseases and everything is a Liberal conspiracy..


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Yemen based surface to surface missile attacks were once again launched at a US warship.
> 
> Russia is sending warships traveling along the coast of Britain on their way to Syria. The British say Putin is playing mind games.
> 
> There is only one person running for President with the knowledge and experience to deal with critical issues such as these.
> 
> Donald Trump isn't the one.



Who is the one with the expertise and experience who started this entire mess in the first place?

Who has the expertise and experience to start world war 3 over this mess and Trump isn't the one?


----------



## new dog

Democrats I heard are bussing people to advance polling stations to vote multiple times. This may be true but here is a video link exposing how much voter fraud can be done by the stupid American voting system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUDTcxIqqM0


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> Democrats I heard are bussing people to advance polling stations to vote multiple times. This may be true but here is a video link exposing how much voter fraud can be done by the stupid American voting system.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUDTcxIqqM0


Obama and the Democrats block every single measure to improve voter security...because, as they think, black people are not smart enough to get ID. And, of course, that makes Republicans racist.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> Trump seems to be coming increasingly unhinged:
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/trump-won-t-quietly-151047925.html
> 
> Carlos Slim? Seriously? What would he care about T-Rump? Talk about conspiracy paranoia- Donny takes the cake. (mmm... cake...)
> 
> I think he's realizing that he's way out of his league by getting into politics, and he doesn't like things he can't control. He's used to buying his way into or out of anything he wants, using his money and position as a bullying tool. Now he's finding out that the public sector just won't accept it. i'd be surprised if he doesn't blow a gasket before November 08. Or wait- is it the 28th?!? Must be his Alzheimer's setting in. Oh, I forgot- it's Hillary who is suffering from all the mystery diseases and everything is a Liberal conspiracy..


YAHOO is just about your speed Einstein.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Democrats I heard are bussing people to advance polling stations to vote multiple times. This may be true but here is a video link exposing how much voter fraud can be done by the stupid American voting system.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUDTcxIqqM0




new york ciy mayor Bill de Blasio has slammed election official Alan Schulkin as "crazy" with pseudo allegations of voting fraud in NYC & demanded that Schulkin step down from his position.

the mayor said that schulkin's accusations are an urban legend "with no proof whatsoever."

other NYC politicians also spoke out to contradict schulkin. According to this article, Schulkin promptly retracted his voter fraud accusations & stated that he should have used the expression *potential* voter fraud instead.

http://observer.com/2016/10/nyc-may...cial-resign-over-crazy-claims-of-voter-fraud/


.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> new york ciy mayor Bill de Blasio has slammed election official Alan Schulkin as "crazy" with pseudo allegations of voting fraud in NYC & demanded that Schulkin step down from his position.
> 
> the mayor said that schulkin's accusations are an urban legend "with no proof whatsoever."
> 
> other NYC politicians also spoke out to contradict schulkin. According to this article, Schulkin promptly retracted his voter fraud accusations & stated that he should have used the expression *potential* voter fraud instead.
> 
> http://observer.com/2016/10/nyc-may...cial-resign-over-crazy-claims-of-voter-fraud/
> 
> 
> .


Humble: You are not an idiot-what is motivating you to try and sell this ridiculous B/S? You are intelligent enough to understand that without proper ID voter fraud would be expected to be rampant anywhere on this planet.


----------



## humble_pie

^^

what BS? schulkin retracted his accusations.

schulkin promptly admitted there is only a *potential* for voter fraud. He has not come up with a single instance of proof of voter fraud in NYC. Instead he has accused latino & chinese communities of voter fraud. Evidently schulkin also said that muslim women are voting fraudulently in the boroughs because they are concealing themselves inside their burquas ...

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> ^^
> 
> what BS? schulkin retracted his accusations.
> 
> schulkin promptly admitted there is only a *potential* for voter fraud. He has not come up with a single instance of proof of voter fraud in NYC. Instead he has accused latino & chinese communities of voter fraud. Evidently schulkin also said that muslim women are voting fraudulently in the boroughs because they are concealing themselves inside their burquas ...
> 
> .


I guess this truth teller decided he wanted to keep up his mortgage payments-hard to tell the truth when you are cashing a pay cheque (obviously).


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> what BS? schulkin retracted his accusations.


Yeah, claims of voter fraud evaporate quickly when investigated.


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> YAHOO is just about your speed Einstein.


The article is on Fortune Magazine. 

So if we're all Einsteins, as you seem to keep mentioning, that would make you what- the equivalent of the village idiot? Or are trolls allowed to leave their bridges to live in villages?


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> Obama and the Democrats block every single measure to improve voter security...because, as they think, black people are not smart enough to get ID. And, of course, that makes Republicans racist.


Right- Barack Obama thinks black people are not intelligent.


----------



## sags

Trump no longer cares about attracting new voters to the Republican Party or his campaign.

He is now focused entirely on telling his core of supporters what they want to hear.

He knows he is going to lose, and wants to mitigate the damage so the results are not an embarrassing historic defeat.

At this point he just hopes to do as well as McCain and Romney, and he will claim it is somebody else's fault he lost.

He is already doing that in advance of his defeat, blaming a rigged system, the lack of support from Republicans, and a biased media.


----------



## olivaw

It's not often that a candidate makes excuses for his loss before election day. 

He promised to concede like a big boy when he lost. Will he break that promise?


----------



## bass player

indexxx said:


> Right- Barack Obama thinks black people are not intelligent.


Now you're finally catching on...  

So tell us...why would he be against attempts to make voter security stronger if he believes that black people are just as capable as white people in getting ID? What reason would he have to be so strongly against protecting the election process?


----------



## heyjude

Trump is behaving like a spoilt two-year old bully. Can't handle losing, so the election must be rigged. Can't bear to be out-debated by a woman, so claims she is on drugs. Can't handle a joke, so wants SNL off the air (despite having hosted it several times).

He is getting so worked up he may have a heart attack.


----------



## mordko

It stands to reason that there will be fraud if no ID is required to vote. Moreover, without IDs it's impossible to prove that there had been fraud unless someone stands up and says "hey, I voted multiple times" or "I voted even though I am not a citizen". How likely is that?


----------



## TomB19

heyjude said:


> He is getting so worked up he may have a heart attack.


Hey, don't make it bad.


----------



## humble_pie

AFAIK american cities have always known voting fraud

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> AFAIK american cities have always known voting fraud.


That's right, and the Democrats have always been against any attempts to reduce voter fraud.

Why is that?


----------



## olivaw

Voter fraud? 
http://istheelectionrigged.com

Trump is going to lose. It won't have a thing to do with voter fraud.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Voter fraud?
> http://istheelectionrigged.com
> 
> Trump is going to lose. It won't have a thing to do with voter fraud.


Again the deflection.

Answer the question...if you are capable. Why are the Democrats against measure to prevent voter fraud?


----------



## olivaw

Tweeted by Donald Trump at 5:14 AM this morning. 


Donald J. Trump said:


> Watched Saturday Night Live hit job on me.Time to retire the boring and unfunny show. Alec Baldwin portrayal stinks. Media rigging election!
> 5:14 AM - 16 Oct 2016


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Now you're finally catching on...
> 
> So tell us...why would he be against attempts to make voter security stronger if he believes that black people are just as capable as white people in getting ID? What reason would he have to be so strongly against protecting the election process?


Requiring ID that costs money to obtain is called a poll tax, which is unconstitutional. And many states are pairing laws about ID and voter registration with measures that make it difficult to get ID, such as limited locations and hours (having to take 3 buses for 3 hours to a basement county office that is open one day a month), and absurdly onerous document requirements to prove identity (like original birth certificates, etc.).


----------



## mordko

Interestingly, Clinton's own staff believe that in 2008 Obama flooded the caucus with ineligible voters: http://dennismichaellynch.com/obama-used-illegal-voters-2008/


----------



## indexxx

heyjude said:


> Trump is behaving like a spoilt two-year old bully. Can't handle losing, so the election must be rigged. Can't bear to be out-debated by a woman, so claims she is on drugs. Can't handle a joke, so wants SNL off the air (despite having hosted it several times).
> 
> He is getting so worked up he may have a heart attack.


He is behaving like a spoilt 70-year old bully! It's just his schema and he'll never change now. Besides, it's all Carlos Slim's fault!!


----------



## mordko

> Requiring ID that costs money to obtain is called a poll tax


Really? Is that what it's called? I shall explain it to the policeman if I ever get stopped or in a hospital when they ask. Hell, next time I go to work, I shall throw away my pass and just break in. Wouldn't want to break the law on poll tax and all.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Again the deflection.
> 
> Answer the question...if you are capable. Why are the Democrats against measure to prevent voter fraud?


It's a matter of trade-offs. How many legitimate voters are disenfranchised by onerous regulations vs what is the actual risk of voter fraud. There is vanishingly little evidence of voter fraud actually occurring. Is it a worthwhile trade-off to disenfranchise a ten million people to prevent one case of voter fraud? 

And don't pretend Republicans are driven by respect for democracy when they impose voter ID laws. They are expressly designed to make it hard for poor and minority voters to exercise their franchise, because these voters tend to vote for Democrats. And if republicans respected democracy, they would not gerrymander and instead have independent, rules-based redistricting like we have in Canada.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Requiring ID that costs money to obtain is called a poll tax, which is unconstitutional. And many states are pairing laws about ID and voter registration with measures that make it difficult to get ID, such as limited locations and hours (having to take 3 buses for 3 hours to a basement county office that is open one day a month), and absurdly onerous document requirements to prove identity (like original birth certificates, etc.).


Hilarious...


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> It's a matter of trade-offs. How many legitimate voters are disenfranchised by onerous regulations vs what is the actual risk of voter fraud. There is vanishingly little evidence of voter fraud actually occurring. Is it a worthwhile trade-off to disenfranchise a ten million people to prevent one case of voter fraud?
> 
> And don't pretend Republicans are driven by respect for democracy when they impose voter ID laws. They are expressly designed to make it hard for poor and minority voters to exercise their franchise, because these voters tend to vote for Democrats. And if republicans respected democracy, they would not gerrymander and instead have independent, rules-based redistricting like we have in Canada.


So, you believe that minorities have a harder time obtaining ID than white people?

That makes you a racist.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Interestingly, Clinton's own staff believe that in 2008 Obama flooded the caucus with ineligible voters: http://dennismichaellynch.com/obama-used-illegal-voters-2008/


Selective amnesia and selective outrage are cornerstones of the Democrat mentality. You can't be a Democrat unless you are a raging hypocrite.


----------



## sags

Clinton is leading Trump by 4-10% depending on the poll.

It is Trump who needs the trickery............not Clinton.


----------



## olivaw

Again: http://istheelectionrigged.com - voter fraud is barely a blip. 

Trump is losing for many reasons. Voter fraud is not one of them.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Again: http://istheelectionrigged.com - voter fraud is barely a blip.
> 
> Trump is losing for many reasons. Voter fraud is not one of them.


That's a left wing opinion site, so just as the left does whenever they hear an opinion from the right that they disagree with, I'll simply dismiss it as meaningless and irrelevant.


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> Interestingly, Clinton's own staff believe that in 2008 Obama flooded the caucus with ineligible voters: http://dennismichaellynch.com/obama-used-illegal-voters-2008/



the above is only a 3rd party rumour. Two lawyers named Jim & Mike are mentioned - by way of a blurred screenshot of an unattributed e-mail fragment - as believing that "obama forces" had flooded the august 2008 democratic convention in colorado with "illegal voters."

a supposed link to the actual e-mail in wikileaks is provided, but this link does not work. 

i remember the 2008 denver nominating convention very well. I don't recall any talk of vote rigging. What i do recall - in 2008 - was an article describing barack obama's introduction to vote rigging at the very beginning of his political career.

in 1996 obama first ran for political office as Illinois state senator from south chicago. He ran against incumbent Alice Palmer, a four-time elected senator who evidently viewed her seat in champaign-urbana as her own permanent god-given turf. Bref, she bitterly resented the inexperienced young civil rights lawyer with the harvard law degree & the jug ears.

in typical chicago style, senator palmer loaded the voter registration lists with a number of questionable names. Some "voters" had moved out of the precincts years earlier. Other "voters" were no longer alive.

every night, obama's workers woulc comb the day's haul of newly registered voters. Evidently they worked the streets, ringing doorbells to confirm that a new voter actually did live at the address where, only hours or days ago, he'd said he was living.

and every night, of course, some new *voters* would turn out to be living at civic addresses that didn't exist, or they'd turn out to have died 11 years previously ... the obama workers would toil on through the evening, knocking all the fake names off the voter registration lists.

late at night they'd contact obama to tell him how many new Palmer votes they'd managed to nix that evening. The detail that i found so appealing is that, reportedly, the freshman politician was never joyful over these reports. Reportedly, obama would always be regretful, sad, dismayed that people could be so dishonest.

.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> That's a left wing opinion site, so just as the left does whenever they hear an opinion from the right that they disagree with, I'll simply dismiss it as meaningless and irrelevant.


^We haven't been dismissing all bogus claims from the far right out of hand here for the most part.

We've delved into the facts and debunked them one after the other, and often there's then immediately another one even more ridiculous than the last, or the righties will go back to one that has already been debunked.
___

You're making the false assumption above that the guy is just some left wing blogger with an opinion.

What he is is a data scientist and quantitative political scientist.

http://chrisalbon.com/
http://chrisalbon.com/pages/about.html


----------



## sags

Trump reminds me of the young guy growing up with us whose father owned the local funeral home.

We hung out with him, but it was kind of creepy.


----------



## humble_pie

someone has written that both candidates are regressive, both keep looking back to the early 1980s. 

both talk about re-shoring lost jobs that are never going to come back to america.

both say they'll put mister-&-missus-middle-pennsylvania back to work in industrial jobs whose descriptions were drafted 30 years ago.

neither talks about the cloud, the workless economy, global warming, the gradual disappearance of potable water on planet earth.

.


----------



## sags

Climate deniers and Trump supporters have one thing in common.

They say "I don't believe any of the evidence..........I just know."


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Trump reminds me of the young guy growing up with us whose father owned the local funeral home.
> 
> We hung out with him, but it was kind of creepy.


Crooked Hillary reminds me of Nurse Ratched.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Climate deniers and Trump supporters have one thing in common.
> 
> They say "I don't believe any of the evidence..........I just know."


I have yet to see a Hillary supporter believe anything that doesn't come from a left wing source. Ever.

As for climate "evidence"...there is no evidence. There are unproven claims and there are computer models. It's all speculation.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> I have yet to see a Hillary supporter believe anything that doesn't come from a left wing source. Ever.
> 
> As for climate "evidence"...there is no evidence. There are unproven claims and there are computer models. It's all speculation.


You are not going to meet a more closed minded group of people than the Hillary zombies-that is why they love Radical Islam so much-they can relate to the lack of logic or intellectual aspiration.


----------



## sags

Another woman comes forward about Trump the Groper.

This woman was with her mother who was a member of Trump's exclusive Florida golf course.

Trump's brand is getting reduced to rubble. Who will want his name on their buildings now.

Better to license and put Obama.........on the front in gold letters.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> You're right, it won't take long...with declining birth rates of less than 2 children per couple vs. 4 to 6 children per couple for immigrants, plus family sponsors, it will only take 2-3 generations to reach the point of no return.


It is the will of Allah.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> new york ciy mayor Bill de Blasio has slammed election official Alan Schulkin as "crazy" with pseudo allegations of voting fraud in NYC & demanded that Schulkin step down from his position.
> 
> the mayor said that schulkin's accusations are an urban legend "with no proof whatsoever."
> 
> other NYC politicians also spoke out to contradict schulkin. According to this article, Schulkin promptly retracted his voter fraud accusations & stated that he should have used the expression *potential* voter fraud instead.
> 
> http://observer.com/2016/10/nyc-may...cial-resign-over-crazy-claims-of-voter-fraud/
> 
> 
> .



Most likely there was some voter fraud here by the sounds of it.

Needless to say the stupid American voting system can be rigged and Trump is right to be worried about it. Both republicans and democrats want him out so there is a lot of motivation to do voter fraud. Most likely there will be voter fraud and it could be very extensive because the mainstream media will not report it even if the same guy trips over a CNN reporter twice on his way to vote for a second time.


----------



## olivaw

*Nate Silver on where the race stands*. 

*Who’s ahead in the polls right now?* - Hillary Clinton

*What’s the degree of uncertainty?* - 15% undecided. At this point in 2012, only 5% were undecided.

*What’s the medium-term trend in the polls?* - Over the past few weeks, the trend favours Hillary Clinton. 

*What’s the short-term trend in the polls?* - Slight shift back towards Trump.

*Which states shape up as most important?* - Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Colorado and New Hampshire.

*Does one candidate appear to have an overall edge in the Electoral College, relative to his or her position in the popular vote?* - No

*How do the “fundamentals” look?* - Economy: meh favours Trump. Obama: popular, favours Hillary.

*How do FiveThirtyEight’s forecasts compare against prediction markets?* - Same. 85% chance of a Clinton victory.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-where-the-race-stands-with-three-weeks-to-go/


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> I have yet to see a Hillary supporter believe anything that doesn't come from a left wing source. Ever.
> 
> As for climate "evidence"...there is no evidence. There are unproven claims and there are computer models. It's all speculation.



Left wing sources are believable, anything from the right cannot be believed and must be confirmed by a left wing source to be valid, thats liberal 101.


----------



## bass player

Since olivaw keeps posting links, I'll post one too. Hillary's #1 aide has close ties with the Muslim Brotherhood:

http://drrichswier.com/2016/10/14/57465/


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> Since olivaw keeps posting links, I'll post one too. Hillary's #1 aide has close ties with the Muslim Brotherhood:
> 
> http://drrichswier.com/2016/10/14/57465/


Did you not read my prior post on Liberal 101. Your link says Dr. Rich is a conservative so anything he says can't be believed or right unless you back it up with a source from the left.

According to wikileaks Hillary could have been involved in Judge Scaly's death. If however this leak came out on Donald Trump it would be all over the mainstream media and everyone on the left would believe it until it was found not to be true.


----------



## bass player

Even when things about Trump are proven not to be true, the media rarely prints a retraction, and if they do it's a one-liner in the back pages. But, even with a retraction, some people continue to rehash the lies as if they are truth.


----------



## olivaw

Nate Silver said that the polls show that Trump is losing. I doubt he'll issue a retraction. :applause:


----------



## new dog

Oh oh how are the liberal forum buddies going to explain this, changing classified e-mail codes so they can be hidden from congress and the public.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...egations-quid-pro-quo-in-clintons-emails.html


----------



## olivaw

^shrug, another unproven allegation by a Republican politician. I doubt this one will be any more damning than the last 50.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> So, you believe that minorities have a harder time obtaining ID than white people?
> 
> That makes you a racist.


Bravo! Statistics are racist--wonderful argument.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> I have yet to see a Hillary supporter believe anything that doesn't come from a left wing source. Ever.
> 
> As for climate "evidence"...there is no evidence. There are unproven claims and there are computer models. It's all speculation.


'Left wing sources' meaning any outlet that says anything bass player disagrees with.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Even when things about Trump are proven not to be true, the media rarely prints a retraction, and if they do it's a one-liner in the back pages. But, even with a retraction, some people continue to rehash the lies as if they are truth.


How self-aware you are... it's remarkable.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Bravo! Statistics are racist--wonderful argument.


Mind referencing stats that demonstrate how minorities are refused IDs?


----------



## olivaw

http://pages.ucsd.edu/~zhajnal/page5/documents/voterIDhajnaletal.pdf



> To test these possibilities, we added interactions between strict photo ID laws and race. We single out Blacks, Latinos, Asian Americans, and Mixed Race Americans to see if their turnout is differentially and negatively impacted by the presence of these laws. The results, which are presented in Table 2 suggest they are. For Latinos, Blacks, and multi-racial Americans there are strong signs that strict photo identification laws decrease turnout. In general elections, Latinos and multi-racial Americans are both significantly more burdened by the laws than are whites and others. In primary elections, Latinos and Blacks are significantly more impacted and multi-racial Americans are almost significantly more impacted.


----------



## bass player

What does "significantly burdened by the laws" mean? Do you mean "convicted criminals"??


----------



## olivaw

Read the study. The authors compared participation rates in states with voter ID laws to those without. Minority participation was suppressed by ID laws.

Studies that demonstrate voter ID laws to be discriminatory can be used to mount a successful legal challenge.


----------



## new dog

All I know is in Canada we seem to have no problem doing it right and verifying people so they can only vote once. You never though if some smart Liberal sells the fact that poor drug users or something are having trouble voting because of ID or whatever and we need a new stupid system to replace the proper system we have.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> "***** blouse = stockholm syndrome"
> - old fortune cookie saying



"*****=obama"
--- old Russian proverb


----------



## sags

Rudy Guiliani told CNN's Jake Tapper that there is some voter fraud in some inner city areas, but it isn't significant...........700 dead people voted in 2012.

He said that unless the voting was within 1% or less, it wouldn't change any outcomes.

Clinton leads by 4 -11% depending on the poll, and her lead in electoral votes is almost insurmountable for Trump.

If Clinton wins Ohio she would have enough votes, and that is if Trump sweeps all the other swing states.

Clinton is leading in most swing states and it is close in Republican bastions Texas and Arizona.

Trump is done like an American Thanksgiving turkey


----------



## sags

Guiliani actually made a lot of sense in the interview, and it was evident that all Jake Tapper wanted to talk about were the women accusing Trump. Guiliani is correct that these are unproven allegations at this point, and investigations should be done. I also agree with him that at least some of the accounts sound sketchy. Molesting in first class section on an airplane while surrounded by other people ? That woman's account sounded a little over the top as well. She actually said it wasn't a big deal when Trump was feeling around her breasts but when he put his hand up her skirt..........she drew the line. I was like..........Huh, did she just say that.

Jake Trapper was the same with Democrat leader Nancy Pelosi, when she basically said to forget all that stuff and talk about what Americans care about............jobs, immigration, foreign policy, education, medicare, but Trapper seems obsessed over the accusations and kept returning to it no matter what Pelosi said.

Pelosi and the Democrats are concerned that voters are getting fed up with all this stuff and won't bother to vote. The Democrats need to get their voters to the polls in close races to win some states.

Some of the CNN folks are better.........Dana Bash and John King come to mind.

CNN should focus on the differences in policies and let the tabloids handle the other stuff.


----------



## sags

An example of an all too often interview on CNN.

So......what do you think of all the allegations against Trump ?

_I don't know. They haven't been verified. Time will tell.
_
So......you think the women are all lying ?

_No, I didn't say that. These are unproven allegations at this point and we should talk about the issues.
_
So......do you think the women made it all up ?

_I have no idea. I don't even know the whole story of each incident. Can we talk about the real issues that affect Americans ?_

So.....do you think more women will come forward ?

_Once again............I wasn't there so I don't know. Can we talk about the real issues ?_

So.....thanks for coming in...........over to you Wolf.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Jake Trapper was the same with Democrat leader Nancy Pelosi, when she basically said to forget all that stuff and talk about what Americans care about............jobs, immigration, foreign policy, education, medicare, but Trapper seems obsessed over the accusations and kept returning to it no matter what Pelosi said.
> 
> 
> 
> CNN should focus on the differences in policies and let the tabloids handle the other stuff.


It's just human nature. Once a sexual scandal is broached everything else recedes into the background.
That is what happened with the Clinton impeachment. The everyday concerns of government are neglected in favour of an 
irresistible fixation with sex. 

Plus Trump is a narcissist. Every conversation will have to be about him. The spotlight will always have to be on him.
Anything else will be neglected. This is not very healthy.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> Rudy Guiliani told CNN's Jake Tapper that there is some voter fraud in some inner city areas, but it isn't significant...........700 dead people voted in 2012.
> 
> He said that unless the voting was within 1% or less, it wouldn't change any outcomes.


Fewer than 600 votes decided the Bush-Gore election. Obviously not relevant to Clinton-Trump, but shows why voter IDs are a must if the outcomes of close elections were to have any legitimacy.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Read the study. The authors compared participation rates in states with voter ID laws to those without. Minority participation was suppressed by ID laws.


A lot of things are "suppressed" without proper ID....you can't even get a library card.

The reality is that getting ID is not difficult, and, in fact, it is almost impossible to function in today's society without it. There is no valid reason to allow people without proper ID to vote, but there are plenty of reasons to prevent people without ID from voting.


----------



## sags

The US has a uniquely awful system of voting, where the individual states are given great power.

It doesn't matter much what Trump or Clinton think about the electoral system. They couldn't change it even if they wanted to.

I have always believed the US system of governance is a convoluted mess from top to bottom, but they seem to like it.

That is why I think we should just stay with the system we have. It is pretty simple and works just fine.

No matter what system there is..........it will never be that outcomes satisfy every voter's desire.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Read the study. The authors compared participation rates in states with voter ID laws to those without. Minority participation was suppressed by ID laws.
> 
> Studies that demonstrate voter ID laws to be discriminatory can be used to mount a successful legal challenge.


Or was it because the dead people and non-citizens voted a little less often?


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Or was it because the dead people and non-citizens voted a little less often?


As the old joke goes: "My dear mama, bless her soul, voted Republican for her entire life. But, now that she's gone, she has voted Democrat ever since..."


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> Fewer than 600 votes decided the Bush-Gore election. Obviously not relevant to Clinton-Trump, but shows why voter IDs are a must if the outcomes of close elections were to have any legitimacy.


It actually was less than 300 votes that decided the election in that case, 300 more for Gore would be 300 less for Bush and would have given Gore the presidency.

Election fraud could affect a virtual tie, and that is just one flaw of many in their electoral system.

The biggest problem of them all is that it takes hundreds of millions of dollars to get nominated and elected.

The money comes from somewhere.........and nobody gives money without expecting something in return.


----------



## mordko

An interesting take on the election fraud implications: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...9d0cb1ed06c_story.html?utm_term=.3495f53546ba


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> An interesting take on the election fraud implications:
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...9d0cb1ed06c_story.html?utm_term=.3495f53546ba


What is next-you posting stories from the National Examiner-BABY BORN WITH SIX HEADS.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> What is next-you posting stories from the National Examiner-BABY BORN WITH SIX HEADS.


So, what counts as reputable sources in your neck of the woods? Alex Jones? RT? PressTV?


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> So, what counts as reputable sources in your neck of the woods? Alex Jones? RT? PressTV?


Certainly more so than the Washington Post-Look-the Washington Post OPENLY pushes propaganda daily-they don't even bother to be subtle about it-ridiculous stuff is being created daily and you swallow it without question-example-Assange already implied who his source was for the DNC leak-a young staffer who is now dead under very suspicious circumstances-you would think that would be a huge story for this rag as the kid was murdered in DC-nope-nothing to see here-evil Russians, Russians evil BLAH BLAH BLAH.


----------



## mordko

Yep, makes sense. Not anything you say, but that you would say it.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Yep, makes sense. Not anything you say, but that you would say it.


Back in the day people used to make fun of the Russian state news service-PRAVDA-that is what the Washington Post, NYT have become-PRAVDA-you would have been mindlessly repeating PRAVDA nonsense back then.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Back in the day people used to make fun of the Russian state news service-PRAVDA-that is what the Washington Post, NYT have become-PRAVDA-you would have been mindlessly repeating PRAVDA nonsense back then.


You have NO idea what you are talking about. Now less than ever, which is quite impressive. My family spent quite a bit of time in the Gulag, not one of my ancestors was ever a member of the communist party and I have always been as fond of Pravda as of yours and HP idiotic rants. Good for entertainment but also deeply sad and harmful, if part of a bigger picture.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> You have NO idea what you are talking about. Now less than ever, which is quite impressive. My family spent quite a bit of time in the Gulag, not one of my ancestors was ever a member of the communist party and I have always been as fond of Pravda as of yours and HP idiotic rants. Good for entertainment but also deeply sad and harmful, if part of a bigger picture.


Your ancestors spent time in the Gulag so that somehow makes you informed? Huh? My ancestors had it just as rough-yours weren't the only ones.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Your ancestors spent time in the Gulag so that somehow makes you informed? Huh? My ancestors had it just as rough-yours weren't the only ones.


Reading comprehension isn't a strength of yours. The point was that you couldn't possibly be more wrong on me ever being a fan of Pravda. The key aspect there was that it was a propaganda outlet of a totalitarian state, 100 percent owned by the state with correspondents att risk of prison or death if they were to say something wrong. Very much like RT and PressTV and nothing like WaPo or NYT.


----------



## mordko

Now that Republicans are in such a mess, good thing Democrats have their house in order. 

What is the most important issue on ones mind after a mass murder? That the murderers first name is Christopher rather than Sayeed. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...te-man-named-as-killer-in-2015-massacre.html#


----------



## Pluto

mordko said:


> You have NO idea what you are talking about. Now less than ever, which is quite impressive. My family spent quite a bit of time in the Gulag, not one of my ancestors was ever a member of the communist party and I have always been as fond of Pravda as of yours and HP idiotic rants. Good for entertainment but also deeply sad and harmful, if part of a bigger picture.


A Russian journalist drinking a cup of radio-active tea, apparently arrainged by the object of his criticism, is a bit intimidating.


----------



## mordko

Pluto said:


> A Russian journalist drinking a cup of radio-active tea, apparently arrainged by the object of his criticism, is a bit intimidating.


It's "radioactive". What are you talking about?


----------



## wraphter

Pluto said:


> A Russian journalist drinking a cup of radio-active tea, apparently arrainged by the object of his criticism, is a bit intimidating.


Litvinenko 'probably murdered on personal orders of Putin'



> The former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko was probably murdered on the personal orders of Vladimir Putin, the UK public inquiry into his death has found.
> 
> Litvinenko, who died from radioactive poisoning in a London hospital in November 2006, was killed by two Russian agents, Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun, the inquiry report said. There was a “strong probability” they were acting on behalf of the Russian FSB secret service, the report added.
> 
> Sir Robert Owen, the inquiry chair, said that taken as a whole the open evidence that had been heard in court amounted to a “strong circumstantial case” that the Russian state was behind the assassination.
> 
> But when he took into account all the evidence available to him, including a “considerable quantity” of secret intelligence that was not aired in open court, he found “that the FSB operation to kill Mr Litvinenko was probably approved by [Nikolai] Patrushev [head of the security service in 2006] and also by President Putin”.


Putin, Trump's BFF.


----------



## Argonaut

When Trump called Hillary the devil in the last debate, he wasn't far off. Check out excerpts from the FBI Investigation. She's just a downright awful person. And a kleptomaniac to boot.


----------



## olivaw

Note to self: Next time mordko asks for statistics, don't bother. He doesn't understand them.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Note to self: Next time mordko asks for statistics, don't bother. He doesn't understand them.


"Doesn't understand IT". When you talk about statistics as a science, it's singular, not plural.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> "Doesn't understand IT". When you talk about statistics as a science, it's singular, not plural.


Based on the context of the olivaw quite, he wasn't referring to statistics as a science.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> "Doesn't understand IT". When you talk about statistics as a science, it's singular, not plural.


A statistic, two statistics. Got it? 

The larger point is that you requested statistics from andrewf. I provided them/it/data. You misunderstood the data and started yammering about dead people.


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> Based on the context of the olivaw quite, he wasn't referring to statistics as a science.


If someone talks about understanding statistics then it's science and singular. 

Either way, statistics can do zilch if your data are crap to start with. Anyone who actually uses statistics at work would know it.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> If someone talks about understanding statistics then it's science and singular.


That is not the context you quoted.

Am I correct in assuming this type of crap-posting is intended to diminish the contribution of olivaw and squelch his participation? Demeaning and belittling someone isn't a sign of someone with a strong argument or a good character.

I've enjoyed this thread and, despite the high emotion and conflicting philosophical positions, I feel this discussion has had a positive outcome. I appreciate everyone's participation.


----------



## olivaw

The statistics in question can be found at http://pages.ucsd.edu/~zhajnal/page5...hajnaletal.pdf. The data doesn't appear to be 'crap'. mordko just doesn't understand. 



> The key test is not whether turnout is lower in strict voter ID states but instead whether the turnout gap between whites and non-whites is greater in strict voter ID states, ceteris paribus. Thus, the key variables in these regression models are the interactions between race and the presence of strict voter ID laws.


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> That is not the context you quoted.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming this type of crap-posting is intended to diminish the contribution of olivaw and squelch his participation? Demeaning and belittling someone isn't a sign of someone with a strong argument or a good character.
> 
> I've enjoyed this thread and, despite the high emotion and conflicting philosophical positions, I feel this discussion has had a positive outcome. I appreciate everyone's participation.


This type of posting is a mere comment on someone who made a claim that I don't understand stastistics when I deal with it every day. If you make a claim like that it's good to know how to use the word that others supposedly don't understand.


----------



## bass player

Thank goodness for the internet, WikiLeaks, alternative news sources, and other. 

Most people don't trust the media (for good reason), and now their obviously biased coverage, lies by omission, and non-stop 24/7 attack on Trump while completely ignoring Hillary's crimes and misdeeds have completely exposed them as nothing but pawns for the Democrats. Their "trust" rating has dropped to an all-time low of just 6%. 

6% may as well be 0%, as any percentage that low likely only includes outliers like olivaw who still believe everything the media tells them. But, the reality is that well over 90% of Democrats do not trust the media to tell the truth. Too many Democrats are now finally realizing how corrupt Hillary is, and even the most ardent Hillary supporters are realizing they have been played for fools by both her and the media.

Even if The Donald loses, he has done the US a great service by helping to expose Hillary as corrupt, and has forced the media to show their true colours.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> The statistics in question can be found at http://pages.ucsd.edu/~zhajnal/page5...hajnaletal.pdf. The data doesn't appear to be 'crap'. mordko just doesn't understand.


When the number of false votes is unknown because IDs are not required, it is impossible to determine what is the actual cause of your findings. It could be because minorities vote less if IDs are required. Or it could be because there are more fake votes in minority areas when IDs are not required. 

Regardless, without IDs some falsification always occurs. That's human nature - no checks, some will misuse the system. Therefore it is always possible that the outcome is distorted.


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> When Trump called Hillary the devil in the last debate, he wasn't far off. Check out excerpts from the FBI Investigation. She's just a downright awful person. And a kleptomaniac to boot.


The link doesn't really say she is the devil. It says that she presented a challenge to security staff because she was more lax about her personal safety than former Secretary Rice. I guess she preferred her secret service detail over the Bureau of Diplomatic Security. 

The lamps and furniture being moved between office and house was interesting (and humorous).


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> This type of posting is a mere comment on someone who made a claim that I don't understand stastistics when I deal with it every day. If you make a claim like that it's good to know how to use the word that others supposedly don't understand.


I don't believe that counting pens in the supply cupboard counts as dealing with statistics. (working with statistics? Dealing implies trading them)


----------



## mordko

Sure.


----------



## ian

The big loosers will be our good neighbours and our best friends next door....the American public.


----------



## Argonaut

Evidence that the DNC coordinated violence at Trump rallies.


----------



## TomB19

ian said:


> The big loosers will be our good neighbours and our best friends next door....the American public.


Liberal minded people are not represented in the US. The polls I've seen show TPP as being broadly disliked and yet Hillary once called it "the gold standard". There are many other issues which Hillary is moving forward with that are not popular among Democratic voters.

Moderate conservatives have not been represented well in my lifetime. The idea of less services and smaller government has been pitched but never implemented. The size of government has become astounding, with the largest increase in size happening during the Dubya era. As best I can tell, this group is the least represented of any in the US electorate.

The God and guns group currently has control of the Republican party but the crazier they get, the less it appears they will gain the presidency. They have a stranglehold on the house of representatives, though.

The only group that is fully represented by all governments is big corporate. They are the owners of America.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> When the number of false votes is unknown because IDs are not required, it is impossible to determine what is the actual cause of your findings. It could be because minorities vote less if IDs are required. Or it could be because there are more fake votes in minority areas when IDs are not required.
> 
> Regardless, without IDs some falsification always occurs. That's human nature - no checks, some will misuse the system. Therefore it is always possible that the outcome is distorted.


"That's human nature" is not a scientific objection to an academic paper. Where is the evidence for "There are more fake votes in minority areas ... "? Care to provide statistics? 

The importance of the point is that reasonable people try to find a middle ground. The Trump campaign is using a one-two punch to sell the rigged election talking point. They started with an outlandish claim of massive election rigging. Then they toned it down on the Sunday morning talk circuit with there is some inner-city vote fraud. The second statement may be as untrue as the first but it doesn't sound unreasonable. Reasonable individuals may just accept it without data. Eventually they'll move the talking point towards a more extreme position. Some previously reasonable people may follow them there.


----------



## bass player

Gee olivaw...that's just what the Dems do.

Claiming that there is no evidence of voter fraud doesn't mean that steps shouldn't be taken to ensure that no fraud does happen. That's not a valid argument.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Gee olivaw...that's just what the Dems do.
> 
> Claiming that there is no evidence of voter fraud doesn't mean that steps shouldn't be taken to ensure that no fraud does happen. That's not a valid argument.


Gee bass player, I haven't actually stated my position on voter ID laws. That discussion would need to be grounded in fact, not conjecture.

Regardless
1) Evidence has been offered in support of the argument that voter ID laws harm minorities. 
2) Evidence has also been offered in support of the argument that voter fraud is almost nonexistent. 

None of which supports Trump's allegation of a rigged election. Trump may be using hyperbole but his supporters hear him literally. I wonder what will happen when Hillary Clinton beats Donald Trump on November 8th. Will those angry second amendment crowds return home quietly and accept the vote? - Or will they think that "inner city" (i.e minority) vote fraud stole the election from them.



ETA: A Trump tweet attacking his own party for not supporting the rigged election rhetoric:



Donald J. Trump said:


> Of course there is large scale voter fraud happening on and before election day. Why do Republican leaders deny what is going on? So naive! 6:33 AM - 17 Oct 2016


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> That discussion would need to be grounded in fact, not conjecture.


Why is that a requirement? What's wrong with conjecture?

Your points are valid but the idea of insuring the integrity of election results is a well founded one. Using that as an excuse to disenfranchise a segment of the electorate is despicable and works directly against the integrity of the democracy.

There does need to be some form of ID but it needs to be as sensitive as possible to all individuals.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Why is that a requirement? What's wrong with conjecture?
> 
> Your points are valid but the idea of insuring the integrity of election results is a well founded one. Using that as an excuse to disenfranchise a segment of the electorate is despicable and works directly against the integrity of the democracy.
> 
> There does need to be some form of ID but it needs to be as sensitive as possible to all individuals.


I agree Tom. Canadian voter ID laws seem reasonably fair and sensitive to the needs of individuals. It's different in the US where some states and counties impose roadblocks on poorer voters.

The concern with Trump is not that the integrity of the US election is suspect due to insufficient voter ID laws. It is that he is willing to say that the election is rigged despite evidence to the contrary.


----------



## TomB19

Is it just me or is Kate McKinnon totally hot as Hillary Clinton on SNL?


----------



## indexxx

TomB19 said:


> Is it just me or is Kate McKinnon totally hot as Hillary Clinton on SNL?


Ask The Donald! Maybe he can rate her from 1-10 for us and let us know where he'd like to grab her.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Regardless
> 1) Evidence has been offered in support of the argument that voter ID laws harm minorities.


Incorrect. Voter ID laws only cause difficulty for people that choose NOT to get ID. Everyone with ID will have no problem. In case you have forgotten...it's 2016, not 1916.



olivaw said:


> 2) Evidence has also been offered in support of the argument that voter fraud is almost nonexistent.


That irrelevant, and is not a valid reason to not take steps to protect the democratic process.


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> When Trump called Hillary the devil in the last debate, he wasn't far off. Check out excerpts from the FBI Investigation. She's just a downright awful person. And a kleptomaniac to boot.



good grief. What a wild exaggerated statement. Argo all your pasted pages show is that some nameless rectangle complained that hillary clinton wasn't careful enough about personal security when riding in limousines as secretary of state.

didn't it occur to you that nameless rectangle might have been a conspiracy-nelley-******* who had a ***** going on about his or her job?

as for the kleptomania, give us a break. You don't know the story, nobody knows the story, nameless rectangle is reporting hearsay. Maybe the secretary of state needed a specific furniture piece for the home office. Maybe she later returned the item. 

mila mulroney, in her day, ripped off far more from 24 sussex drive. Not to speak of the clothing freebies she used to routinely rip off from merchants of fine apparel ...

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> good grief. What a wild exaggerated statement. Argo all your pasted pages show is that some nameless rectangle complained that hillary clinton wasn't careful enough about personal security when riding in limousines as secretary of state.
> 
> didn't it occur to you that nameless rectangle might have been a conspiracy-nelley-******* who had a ***** going on about his or her job?
> 
> as for the kleptomania, give us a break. You don't know the story, nobody knows the story, nameless rectangle is reporting hearsay. Maybe the secretary of state needed a specific furniture piece for the home office. Maybe she later returned the item.
> 
> mila mulroney, in her day, ripped off far more from 24 sussex drive. Not to speak of the clothing freebies she used to routinely rip off from merchants of fine apparel ...
> 
> .


HAHAHA-I love it-now Podesta et al are all Conspiracy Nuts-so their emails don't count anymore-maybe this Sick Demented Criminal Puppet can claim to be a Conspiracy Nut and therefore her 33000 emails won't matter at all.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> HAHAHA-I love it-now Podesta et al are all Conspiracy Nuts-so their emails don't count anymore-maybe this Sick Demented Criminal Puppet can claim to be a Conspiracy Nut and therefore her 33000 emails won't matter at all.



this is a slight improvement because there's no BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

nelley a little suggestion if i may. You should get over those BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAHs because they make you sound illiterate.

.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Incorrect. Voter ID laws only cause difficulty for people that choose NOT to get ID. Everyone with ID will have no problem. In case you have forgotten...it's 2016, not 1916.
> 
> That irrelevant, and is not a valid reason to not take steps to protect the democratic process.


The evidence doesn't support your argument. Instead of denying the evidence, perhaps you should offer evidence to the contrary. It might be a nice change for you.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> this is a slight improvement because there's no BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.
> 
> nelley a little suggestion if i may. You should get over those BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAHs because they make you sound illiterate.
> 
> .


I was hoping for something more contrite-along the lines of-you know Nelley this time you are correct-what I was saying was really stupid-my blood sugar is low or high or something-I hope you accept my apology-that is what I hoped for but I will accept this crude acknowledgement of defeat graciously.


----------



## TomB19




----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> HAHAHA-I love it-now Podesta et al are all Conspiracy Nuts-so their emails don't count anymore-maybe this Sick Demented Criminal Puppet can claim to be a Conspiracy Nut and therefore her 33000 emails won't matter at all.


Try to keep up conspiracy nelley. The linked document had nothing to do with Pedesta. It was an FBI investigative report.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> The evidence doesn't support your argument. Instead of denying the evidence, perhaps you should offer evidence to the contrary. It might be a nice change for you.


There is no evidence that people are denied ID, only that a certain segment of the population doesn't make as much EFFORT to get it as other people do.

The truth is that if a person doesn't care enough to make the effort to get ID, then they don't care enough to vote, regardless of skin colour.


----------



## olivaw

indexxx said:


> Ask The Donald! Maybe he can rate her from 1-10 for us and let us know where he'd like to grab her.


Best line of the day (at least so far).


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> There is no evidence that people are denied ID, only that a certain segment of the population doesn't make as much EFFORT to get it as other people do.


I'm with you, so far...




bass player said:


> The truth is that if a person doesn't care enough to make the effort to get ID, then they don't care enough to vote, regardless of skin colour.


This is where you lose me. Tell us why you get to decide who gets to vote in what I've been taught is a representative democracy?

Even lazy people should be represented. Everyone having a vote is the whole point of democracy.

What are you? Some sort of communist? Go back to Stalingrad, komrade.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I'm with you, so far...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where you lose me. Tell us why you get to decide who matters in what I've been taught is a representative democracy?
> 
> Even lazy people should be represented. Everyone having a vote is the whole point of democracy.
> 
> What are you? Some sort of communist? Go back to Stalingrad, komrade.


As usual, with no valid argument you are reduced to stupid insults.

Yes, everyone has the right to vote....no one has said otherwise. However, along with your rights come the responsibility to ensure that proper steps are taken to exercise those rights. Freedom and democracy isn't free...it comes with responsibilities, and rules are in place. Those who don't like the rules in the US or Canada are free to move to Stalingrad or North Korea.


----------



## olivaw

CNN *reports* that the allegations of aggressive and unwanted sexual touching haven't hurt Trump in the polls. 

It makes sense. Unproven sexual allegations didn't hurt Bill Clinton. Unproven allegations about emails and Benghazi haven't hurt Hillary. Unproven sexual assault allegations won't hurt Trump. 

I spent some time as a child in the United States. Innocent until proven guilty is taught at an early age. In fact, it is a source of national pride. Many (not all) voters use it in their decision making process. 

The "grab them in the p-----" tape happened. It will form part of the decision making process. Unsubstantiated accusations and opposition attacks will not.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> However, along with your rights come the responsibility to ensure that proper steps are taken to exercise those rights. Freedom and democracy isn't free...it comes with responsibilities, and rules are in place. Those who don't like the rules in the US or Canada are free to move to Stalingrad or North Korea.


Jingoism is a great fall back for Republican nut jobs.


----------



## mordko

> "That's human nature" is not a scientific objection to an academic paper. Where is the evidence for "There are more fake votes in minority areas ... "? Care to provide statistics?


It's called common sense. One often sees people applying statistics without common sense. Once you apply common sense to a problem then you can use statistics to quantify the scale. Common sense tells us that unless you put checks and balances, there will always be a proportion of people who will not follow the rules. Otherwise we don't need to regulate banks or lock houses. I don't need evidence for fake votes in minority areas. I am just providing a plausible explanation - one among many - for the phenomenon observed by the authors. The explanation they provided isn't the only one that is all. 

Being a minority, I never found anyone who would refuse to issue an ID when I need it, so the problem of hardship in getting one is entirely made up. The issue of cheating impacting results during close elections is very real.



> The importance of the point is that reasonable people try to find a middle ground. The Trump campaign is using a one-two punch to sell the rigged election talking point. They started with an outlandish claim of massive election rigging.


The issue of IDs can't impact this election because it's not close-fought. Trump is behind by a mile. However it's possible that instances of cheating will give conspiracy junkies fodder and create mistrust and "Trump cheated out of presidency movement" along the lines of 9/11 deniers.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Jingoism is a great fall back for Republican nut jobs.


Democrats don't understand freedom...they only understand "free".


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> It's called common sense. One often sees people applying statistics without common sense. Once you apply common sense to a problem then you can use statistics to quantify the scale. Common sense tells us that unless you put checks and balances, there will always be a proportion of people who will not follow the rules. Otherwise we don't need to regulate banks or lock houses. I don't need evidence for fake votes in minority areas. I am just providing a plausible explanation - one among many - for the phenomenon observed by the authors. The explanation they provided isn't the only one that is all.
> 
> Being a minority, I never found anyone who would refuse to issue an ID when I need it, so the problem of hardship in getting one is entirely made up. The issue of cheating impacting results during close elections is very real.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue of IDs can't impact this election because it's not close-fought. Trump is behind by a mile. However it's possible that instances of cheating will give conspiracy junkies fodder and create mistrust and "Trump cheated out of presidency movement" along the lines of 9/11 deniers.


You try to hard to be politically correct but somehow you can't make it work-there are no 9/11 "deniers"-get your lingo straight-and the other thing is-you have no frigging idea if Trump is ahead, tied or behind so quit pretending you do.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> ...there are no 9/11 "deniers"...


I'm a Nelley denier.

Whatever your position, I am against it.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> It's called common sense.


_Common sense_ is a euphemism for _my opinion_.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> _Common sense_ is a euphemism for _my opinion_.


Certainly not yours.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> you have no frigging idea if Trump is ahead, tied or behind so quit pretending you do.


Sure *he does*.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> You try to hard to be politically correct but somehow you can't make it work-there are no 9/11 "deniers"-get your lingo straight-and the other thing is-you have no frigging idea if Trump is ahead, tied or behind so quit pretending you do.


Sure there are 9/11 deniers. If I were a betting man I'd say you are one of them. Here: http://www.salon.com/2006/06/27/911_conspiracies/



> you have no frigging idea if Trump is ahead


Him losing is not a question, the question is by how much. Pretty much anyone else would have beaten Hillary but Trump couldn't keep his mouth shut which is just as well. 
He is a sick man and it's not his physique I am talking about.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> Pretty much anyone else would have beaten Hillary ...


Common sense or pure conjecture on your part?


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Him losing is not a question, the question is by how much. Pretty much anyone else would have beaten Hillary but Trump couldn't keep his mouth shut which is just as well.
> He is a sick man and it's not his physique I am talking about.


If Hillary just barely wins, it will be a sobering moment. For someone like Trump to have such a significant percentage of the vote is deflating.


By the way, I like Gary Johnson but he is a nut. Many of the things he says are the Republican party lines and he is an incompetent politician. I won't know much about Jill Stein until SNL does a skit about her.

Hillary is a superstar in this crowd. She is the least fat kid at fat camp.


----------



## humble_pie

.
how about a touch of levity to lighten up the thread, at least for a few minutes

let's take the ***** blouse in fashion history. Yves st-laurent rocked Paris in 1966 with his *****-tied smoking jacket for women.
.











.

speaking of fashion, the donald's shapeless flopping sack suits are deplorable. But wait, maybe it's the ape inside them.

.


----------



## bass player

I'll take Trump's suits over Hillary's Chairman Mao's pantsuits...


----------



## TomB19

Early on, Trump was attacked on his looks. WTF? lol!

Trump looks fine. Hillary looks fine.

My God, can we be any more shallow? Why do we care about Trump's hair?


BTW, I don't think Trump is a bad man. I believe his motivations are honourable. The problem with Trump is that he's gone. He thinks the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. He says too many things that are nuts.

Hillary is far more reasonable. The issue with Hillary is that she is too pro-establishment. Being anti-establishment is where Trump shines.


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> If Hillary just barely wins, it will be a sobering moment. For someone like Trump to have such a significant percentage of the vote is deflating.
> 
> 
> By the way, I like Gary Johnson but he is a nut. Many of the things he says are the Republican party lines and he is an incompetent politician. I won't know much about Jill Stein until SNL does a skit about her.
> 
> Hillary is a superstar in this crowd. She is the least fat kid at fat camp.


They are all terrible, Hillary is the least awful of the bunch. Johnson has no idea about anything. Jill Stein is possibly the worst of them all; she incidentally prefers Trump over Hillary. The system is broken and it seems to be what's going on around the world, not just in the US. From France to Britain to Poland to Germany rogue, incompetent and dangerous populists have taken over major parties and are threatening to win power. 

Internet is partly to blame, it allowed conspiracy theory junkies to organize themselves and created phenomena like Wikileaks (aka FSB operation to influence public opinion in the west). 

The other issues, I guess, are globalization and the forever growing public sector and welfare in the developed world. Resentment of the former creates nativists/protectionists like Trump or Le Pen. Dependence on the latter empowers the likes of Corbyn and Saunders.


----------



## Argonaut

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...rganizations_to_beat_up_trump_supporters.html

There's some really damning stuff in this video and in the Wikileaks, but it just isn't getting traction with the mainstream media. The DNC coordinating with its SuperPacs is not only illegal, but it's being used to incite violence in Chicago, etc. Clinton's campaign accepting money from foreign donors; "Take the money!". And the deletion of 33,000 emails with BleachBit, while smashing Blackberry's with hammers.

The level of corruption is so blatant and outrageous that an honest press would have a field day with it. It makes Watergate look minor. I'm generally right-leaning although not a fan of Trump's policies. But I would love to throw him in there like a grenade just to shake things up. The current level of corruption in politics and the media is reminiscent of any declining empire, which unfortunately the United States is. That's why the "Make America Great Again" slogan is so appealing.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> I'll take Trump's suits over Hillary's Chairman Mao's pantsuits...


Mao? I thought she was trying to emulate the fat kid from North Korea.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Early on, Trump was attacked on his looks. WTF? lol!
> 
> Trump looks fine. Hillary looks fine.
> 
> My God, can we be any more shallow? Why do we care about Trump's hair?
> 
> 
> BTW, I don't think Trump is a bad man. I believe his motivations are honourable. The problem with Trump is that he's gone. He thinks the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. He says too many things that are nuts.
> 
> Hillary is far more reasonable. The issue with Hillary is that she is too pro-establishment. Being anti-establishment is where Trump shines.


Crooked Hillary as the emotional intelligence of a 5 year old kid-everyone that has worked for her tells the same story.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> They are all terrible, Hillary is the least awful of the bunch. Johnson has no idea about anything. Jill Stein is possibly the worst of them all; she incidentally prefers Trump over Hillary. The system is broken and it seems to be what's going on around the world, not just in the US. From France to Britain to Poland to Germany rogue, incompetent and dangerous populists have taken over major parties and are threatening to win power.
> 
> Internet is partly to blame, it allowed conspiracy theory junkies to organize themselves and created phenomena like Wikileaks (aka FSB operation to influence public opinion in the west).
> 
> The other issues, I guess, are globalization and the forever growing public sector and welfare in the developed world. Resentment of the former creates nativists/protectionists like Trump or Le Pen. Dependence on the latter empowers the likes of Corbyn and Saunders.


SURE-lets follow Mordko's advice and restart the Gulag for troublesome journalists and whistleblowers-crush this lousy populism once and for all.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> SURE-lets follow Mordko's advice and restart the Gulag for troublesome journalists and whistleblowers-crush this lousy populism once and for all.


Obviously not "Mordko's advice". Incidentally, when Trump talks about putting Hillary into prison once he comes to power, it does remind me of Russia or Arab dictatorships. Can't think of another case when in a democracy one major party candidate threatened another one with prison.


----------



## humble_pie

it's interesting how, whenever the bass/nelleys of the thread do manage to post something with a bit of sinew to it, their links always reference mainstream media. Like this one. Herr doktor swier is crazy for the New York Times.




bass player said:


> Hillary's #1 aide has close ties with the Muslim Brotherhood:
> 
> http://drrichswier.com/2016/10/14/57465/



.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Can't think of another case when in a democracy one major party candidate threatened another one with prison.


No one else is as corrupt as Hillary so it never needed to be said.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> No one else is as corrupt as Hillary so it never needed to be said.


Really? Were you around when the Liberal government of Canada moved money around in brown envelopes? 

Regardless, putting people into prisons is up to judges and juries, not to your political opponents. Trump is a psycho with totalitarian tendencies.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Obviously not "Mordko's advice". Incidentally, when Trump talks about putting Hillary into prison once he comes to power, it does remind me of Russia or Arab dictatorships. Can't think of another case when in a democracy one major party candidate threatened another one with prison.


Jeez-lets just focus on all the elections where one of the candidates was facing prison time because of an active FBI investigation-lots of those for sure Einstein.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Really? Were you around when the Liberal government of Canada moved money around in brown envelopes?
> 
> Regardless, putting people into prisons is up to judges and juries, not to your political opponents. Trump is a psycho with totalitarian tendencies.


Trump said he would appoint a special investigator...and his comment about "you would be in prison" makes the assumption that the person appointed would conduct a proper investigation rather than deliberately tank it.


----------



## mrPPincer

mordko said:


> Really? Were you around when the Liberal government of Canada moved money around in brown envelopes?
> 
> Regardless, putting people into prisons is up to judges and juries, not to your political opponents. Trump is a psycho with totalitarian tendencies.


Close, but it was Mulroney who accepted the brown envolopes of cash from Karlheinz Schreiber over the Airbus deal.

He was at least a progressive (making him a 1,000 times better than his eventual social con. successor Harper, imho), but not a Liberal.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Really? Were you around when the Liberal government of Canada moved money around in brown envelopes?
> 
> Regardless, putting people into prisons is up to judges and juries, not to your political opponents. Trump is a psycho with totalitarian tendencies.


Talk about projection-you are a psycho with totalitarian tendencies-Trump simply said he would appoint an independent prosecutor-which is very reasonable considering the case and how it was "handled".


----------



## Eclectic12

olivaw said:


> mordko said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Pretty much anyone else would have beaten Hillary but Trump couldn't keep his mouth shut ...
> 
> 
> 
> Common sense or pure conjecture on your part?
Click to expand...

Either way, there was a guest on the CTV news channel who claimed his model that has worked for forty years showed this election as a year for the Republicans to win. He claimed that their selecting of Trump as candidate was the only action that switched the model over to picking a Clinton win.


Time will tell.


Cheers


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Close, but it was Mulroney who accepted the brown envolopes of cash from Karlheinz Schreiber over the Airbus deal.
> 
> He was at least a progressive (making him a 1,000 times better than his social con. successor imho), but not a Liberal.


I still remember laughing when Mulroney claimed that everybody does that (not just politicians).


----------



## new dog

Argonaut said:


> http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...rganizations_to_beat_up_trump_supporters.html
> 
> There's some really damning stuff in this video and in the Wikileaks, but it just isn't getting traction with the mainstream media. The DNC coordinating with its SuperPacs is not only illegal, but it's being used to incite violence in Chicago, etc. Clinton's campaign accepting money from foreign donors; "Take the money!". And the deletion of 33,000 emails with BleachBit, while smashing Blackberry's with hammers.
> 
> The level of corruption is so blatant and outrageous that an honest press would have a field day with it. It makes Watergate look minor. I'm generally right-leaning although not a fan of Trump's policies. But I would love to throw him in there like a grenade just to shake things up. The current level of corruption in politics and the media is reminiscent of any declining empire, which unfortunately the United States is. That's why the "Make America Great Again" slogan is so appealing.



You guys seem to be ignoring this but I agree totally with what Argonaut has posted.


----------



## Nelley

Argonaut said:


> http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...rganizations_to_beat_up_trump_supporters.html
> 
> There's some really damning stuff in this video and in the Wikileaks, but it just isn't getting traction with the mainstream media. The DNC coordinating with its SuperPacs is not only illegal, but it's being used to incite violence in Chicago, etc. Clinton's campaign accepting money from foreign donors; "Take the money!". And the deletion of 33,000 emails with BleachBit, while smashing Blackberry's with hammers.
> 
> The level of corruption is so blatant and outrageous that an honest press would have a field day with it. It makes Watergate look minor. I'm generally right-leaning although not a fan of Trump's policies. But I would love to throw him in there like a grenade just to shake things up. The current level of corruption in politics and the media is reminiscent of any declining empire, which unfortunately the United States is. That's why the "Make America Great Again" slogan is so appealing.


The honest press is called the alternative media and Crooked Hillary devoted an entire speech to how evil it is. Once proud institutions like the NYT and Wash Post are simply sad jokes at this point.


----------



## Eclectic12

mordko said:


> ... Trump is behind by a mile. However it's possible that instances of cheating will give conspiracy junkies fodder and create mistrust and "Trump cheated out of presidency movement" along the lines of 9/11 deniers.


I'm not sure some Trump supporters needs any proof.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/polit...trump-supporter-for-1476223249-htmlstory.html
http://www.redstate.com/absentee/20...pence-rally-im-ready-revolution-hillary-wins/


Cheers


----------



## mordko

mrPPincer said:


> Close, but it was Mulroney who accepted the brown envolopes of cash from Karlheinz Schreiber over the Airbus deal.
> 
> He was at least a progressive (making him a 1,000 times better than his social con. successor imho), but not a Liberal.


Mulroney did that once he had left the government, very similar to what Clintons have been doing. Liberals were doing it while in power with the tax $s filling the envelopes which is kinda different: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rial-details-extent-of-fraud/article32308837/


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> You guys seem to be ignoring this but I agree totally with what Argonaut has posted.


olivaw and sags have completely ignored it....what a surprise.


----------



## mordko

Eclectic12 said:


> I'm not sure some Trump supporters needs any proof.
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/nation/polit...trump-supporter-for-1476223249-htmlstory.html
> http://www.redstate.com/absentee/20...pence-rally-im-ready-revolution-hillary-wins/
> 
> 
> Cheers


That is a good point but the fact that the system is vulnerable to abuse does not help.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> That is a good point but the fact that the system is vulnerable to abuse does not help.


Wikileaks does not help this MSM narrative either.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...rganizations_to_beat_up_trump_supporters.html
> 
> There's some really damning stuff in this video and in the Wikileaks, but it just isn't getting traction with the mainstream media. The DNC coordinating with its SuperPacs is not only illegal, but it's being used to incite violence in Chicago, etc. Clinton's campaign accepting money from foreign donors; "Take the money!". And the deletion of 33,000 emails with BleachBit, while smashing Blackberry's with hammers.
> 
> The level of corruption is so blatant and outrageous that an honest press would have a field day with it. It makes Watergate look minor. I'm generally right-leaning although not a fan of Trump's policies. But I would love to throw him in there like a grenade just to shake things up. The current level of corruption in politics and the media is reminiscent of any declining empire, which unfortunately the United States is. That's why the "Make America Great Again" slogan is so appealing.


Media is likely a bit cautious because the guy who put it together has a couple of convictions for manipulating evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O'Keefe 

Regardless, very few people think that Hillary is all pink and fluffy and even if a few lower level operatives are breaking the law it does not tie her directly to anything. 

Trump's problem is that he ties himself to all sorts of things and everyone's mind is already made up.


----------



## humble_pie

spirit said:


> http://time.com/money/4253949/h1b-visas-florida-primary/
> 
> The media has portayed Trump as leading a mass of poor uneducated neo Nazi type thugs who beat up protesters at the drop of a hat. I could never understand just how his support could be so strong if that was the type of support he was getting.
> 
> Then I read this article. This is a real eye opener for me and it just makes sense. There are a lot of intelligent well educated people who are backing Trump and this is the reason why. They see huge corporations breaking a public trust with American workers....they are profiting on the backs of their own citizens....and the people do not like it.
> 
> I also think that this discontent is something that Bernie has tapped into.
> 
> Ok, you heard it here first....Trump will choose Bernie as his running mate and they will sweep the election!!!!!




spirit with all due respect the above seems too superficial. The malaise goes much deeper. Argo is closer to the truth when he says the US is in its declining years, although many would say that russia is also declining while china is not doing too well either. As the french book title said, God is dead, Marx is dead, And I don't feel too good myself.

american workers might be angry but that's not going to bring their jobs back. They're probably not getting their jobs back. Someone posted that both clinton & trump are looking backwards to the 1980s, there's nothing in their words about the future of worklessness, unhealthy particle energy reactors everywhere, lawless gang violence in every nation, steady worldwide reduction of potable water.

people have turned scared & scared people usually turn angry, but that doesn't mean that a visibly disturbed demagogue like donald trump should be elected to lead a nation.

.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> The honest press is called the alternative media and Crooked Hillary devoted an entire speech to how evil it is. Once proud institutions like the NYT and Wash Post are simply sad jokes at this point.



nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the alternative media we see is little more than trash & lies. Those people don't even know how to check a fact.

here's one of the proofs. When bass player's "dr rich swier" wants to make a strong case, he repeatedly has to reference none other than the mighty New York Times.




bass player said:


> Since olivaw keeps posting links, I'll post one too. Hillary's #1 aide has close ties with the Muslim Brotherhood:
> 
> http://drrichswier.com/2016/10/14/57465/


.


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...rganizations_to_beat_up_trump_supporters.html
> 
> There's some really damning stuff in this video and in the Wikileaks, but it just isn't getting traction with the mainstream media. The DNC coordinating with its SuperPacs is not only illegal, but it's being used to incite violence in Chicago, etc. Clinton's campaign accepting money from foreign donors; "Take the money!". And the deletion of 33,000 emails with BleachBit, while smashing Blackberry's with hammers.
> 
> The level of corruption is so blatant and outrageous that an honest press would have a field day with it. It makes Watergate look minor. I'm generally right-leaning although not a fan of Trump's policies. But I would love to throw him in there like a grenade just to shake things up. The current level of corruption in politics and the media is reminiscent of any declining empire, which unfortunately the United States is. That's why the "Make America Great Again" slogan is so appealing.


This is the second link you posted today. 

The first didn't support your hyperbole. It was about nothing more than Secretary Clinton's tendency to be less concerned about her personal security than Secretary Rice. There was some vague hearsay about lamps and furniture but no details. 

The second doesn't support your hyperbole. It doesn't even involve Hillary Clinton herself. 

Keep searching. Perhaps you'll find a newsworthy story like the Trump tape. I wonder if there's a tape of Hillary Clinton bragging about how she cops a feel when she meets world leaders.

ETA: The source of the story is the Veritas Action Fund. It's a right wing site that attempts to dig up dirt on low and mid level Democratic campaign operatives (RCP is just the link aggregator).


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Gee olivaw...that's just what the Dems do.
> 
> Claiming that there is no evidence of voter fraud doesn't mean that steps shouldn't be taken to ensure that no fraud does happen. That's not a valid argument.


So, you accept a similar argument for gun control?


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> So, you accept a similar argument for gun control?


I see nothing wrong with requiring people to show ID when purchasing a gun.


----------



## mordko

HP:


> "unhealthy particle energy reactors everywhere"


Be afraaaid... Be very afraaaaid... particle energy reactors are everywhere... they are after you!

I am starting to get addicted to HP's writing. Not often one comes across this level of intellectual sophistication and depth of knowledge. Some people have to pay a lot of money to research the habits and beliefs of the Cargo Cult followers.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> I see nothing wrong with requiring people to show ID when purchasing a gun.


It is against the US constitution and also, I must add: Hitler


----------



## Argonaut

olivaw said:


> ETA: The source of the story is the Veritas Action Fund. It's a right wing site that attempts to dig up dirt on low and mid level Democratic campaign operatives (RCP is just the link aggregator).


Wasn't that what Watergate was, low-level operatives acting shady? These people in the video are tied to the DNC, who also rigged the primaries for Hillary over Bernie. Same story, but this time the press refuses to report it because it doesn't grab the attention like grabbing a *****, and the press is totally one-sided in favour of the Democrats. CNN literally contributes to her campaign. How is that not an outrage? The ironic thing is that now Fox News seems to be the most neutral of the mainstream media, because Trump doesn't fit into some of their peoples' ideas about conservatism.


----------



## olivaw

bass player hates it when I link to Nate Silver. soooooo ....... 

*Election Update: Clinton’s Big Lead Means A Steadier Forecast*


> Clinton’s chances are up a bit — she’s hit 88 percent in our polls-only forecast, up slightly from 86 percent on Friday and 83 percent a week ago. In the polls-plus forecast, Clinton’s chances are 85 percent, up from 80 percent a week earlier.





> Overall, the results are most consistent with a race in which Clinton leads by about 7 percentage points nationally. States in the Midwest and the Northeast for the most part look as they did in 2012, when President Obama beat Mitt Romney by just under 4 points nationally. But, in the West and in the South, where demographic shifts are unfavorable for Trump, Clinton is poised to have the best Democratic performance since at least 1996, if the polls are correct.


*Synopsis:*
Clinton is kicking Trump in the Rump.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> this time the press refuses to report it because it doesn't grab the attention like grabbing a *****.


...but don't you think they should be a bit cautious with this particular source given that they had been previously burned by him manipulating evidence?


----------



## Argonaut

mordko said:


> ...but don't you think they should be a bit cautious with this particular source given that they had been previously burned by him manipulating evidence?


Yet they are happy to have wall-to-wall coverage of women claiming that Trump groped them, with no evidence. I'm not saying he's an innocent saint, just that there is a huge double standard.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> I see nothing wrong with requiring people to show ID when purchasing a gun.


Goes beyond that. You are arguing that we should do things that might help with a problem that may or may not exist, regardless of proportionality. So, the US should only allow muzzle-loaded guns since they will help cut down on mass shootings. Who cares about the millions of gun-owners affected, they are still allowed to own guns as long as they are not too lazy to load them laboriously.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nate Silver was wrong about Brexit and he was wrong about Trump winning the Republican nomination. If I was going to bet I wouldn't mind fading his predictions. But, Trump is doomed for other reasons.


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> Wasn't that what Watergate was, low-level operatives acting shady? These people in the video are tied to the DNC, who also rigged the primaries for Hillary over Bernie. Same story, but this time the press refuses to report it because it doesn't grab the attention like grabbing a *****, and the press is totally one-sided in favour of the Democrats. CNN literally contributes to her campaign. How is that not an outrage? The ironic thing is that now Fox News seems to be the most neutral of the mainstream media, because Trump doesn't fit into some of their peoples' ideas about conservatism.


Watergate was personally directed by Richard Nixon and involved illegal wiretapping. 

This is about some mid level operatives sending protesters to the opposing candidates rally. It's not newsworthy because it's not news. It's a dog bites boy story. .


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> HP:
> 
> Be afraaaid... Be very afraaaaid... particle energy reactors are everywhere... they are after you!
> 
> I am starting to get addicted to HP's writing. Not often one comes across this level of intellectual sophistication and depth of knowledge. Some people have to pay a lot of money to research the habits and beliefs of the Cargo Cult followers.



lol not even 10 months in the forum & already an unpleasant joke

ps it's not rad journos on obscure chat boards who are going to rat out neighbourhood finance sales shops with their yesterday mutual funds & their tawdry couch potatoes full of synthetics.

it'll be the big banks with their robo advisors. A version appeared yesterday in the forum. Cheaper. Better. Even knows how to spell.

.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> Yet they are happy to have wall-to-wall coverage of women claiming that Trump groped them, with no evidence. I'm not saying he's an innocent saint, just that there is a huge double standard.


That only started after the tape of Trump saying how he likes to grab unsuspecting women by the ***** came up. He then proceeded to claim that he only said it but does not actually do it, which surely got a few of the impacted women riled up the wrong way. 

Suspect that if there was a tape out there with Hillary ordering to start violence at rallies, media would jump on it. Chances are she never said anything of the kind. 

As for media bias... Early on, during Republican primaries, CNN used to run Trump's rallies from start to end while ignoring rallies by Trump's opponents. Trump got massively more coverage than the rest of the republican field combined. That was one of the key factors in Trump becoming the eventual nominee.


----------



## sags

Sheesh...........all this about Hillary. Ignore her faults because it doesn't matter when the only alternative is nutty as a fruitcake.

The Republicans blew it. They would have had a better chance with a picture of Ronald Reagan as a candidate.

Clinton wins in a landslide simply because she isn't nuts.

Trump is your crazy relative............and you wouldn't vote for them as President either.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mordko said:


> That only started after the tape of Trump saying how he likes to grab unsuspecting women by the ***** came up. He then proceeded to claim that he only said it but does not actually do it, which surely got a few of the impacted women riled up the wrong way.
> 
> Suspect that if there was a tape out there with Hillary ordering to start violence at rallies, media would jump on it. Chances are she never said anything of the kind.
> 
> As for media bias... Early on, during Republican primaries, CNN used to run Trump's rallies from start to end while ignoring rallies by Trump's opponents. Trump got massively more coverage than the rest of the republican field combined. That was one of the key factors in Trump becoming the eventual nominee.


Watch the video again. Trump said if you are rich and famous, women let you grab them by the *****. If you never heard that before you haven't been watching enough Hollywood gossip shows lol. Quite a different thing that what the media is spinning.

This is what fascinates me. How the big interests can play the media like a Wurlitzer and how everybody dances to their tune.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Nate Silver was wrong about Brexit and he was wrong about Trump winning the Republican nomination. If I was going to bet I wouldn't mind fading his predictions. But, Trump is doomed for other reasons.


Nate talks in probabilities , not predictions. His polls-only forecast gives Trump an 11.3% chance of victory which is not zero. 

Did he provide probabilities for the Brexit referendum? I could only find one podcast where he talked about British polls being all over the place.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Nate talks in probabilities , not predictions. His polls-only forecast gives Trump an 11.3% chance of victory which is not zero.
> 
> Did he provide probabilities for the Brexit referendum? I could only find one podcast where he talked about British polls being all over the place.


LOOK-Nate Silver was DRAMATICALLY wrong about Trump winning the nomination-which means Nate Silver is either not a pollster at all, really just a pundit/predictor, or there is something seriously flawed with his polling methodology.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> LOOK-Nate Silver was DRAMATICALLY wrong about Trump winning the nomination-which means Nate Silver is either not a pollster at all, really just a pundit/predictor, or there is something seriously flawed with his polling methodology.


I actually followed Nate Silver during the primaries and through most of the process Trump had the highest probability of winning according to Nate's estimates.


----------



## Argonaut

I remember Nate Bronze giving Trump virtually no shot at winning the primary about this time last year, despite him leading in the polls. The gambling markets didn't give him a shot either, which is why I was able to 3 and 4 times my money on a couple bets.


----------



## mordko

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Watch the video again. Trump said if you are rich and famous, women let you grab them by the *****. If you never heard that before you haven't been watching enough Hollywood gossip shows lol. Quite a different thing that what the media is spinning.
> 
> This is what fascinates me. How the big interests can play the media like a Wurlitzer and how everybody dances to their tune.


No, I don't watch any Hollywood gossip shows. Here is what Trump said:



> Yeah, that’s her, with the gold. I’ve got to use some Tic Tacs, just in case I start kissing her. You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. I just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
> 
> Unidentified voice: Whatever you want.
> 
> Trump: Grab them by the *****. You can do anything.


This is not a teenager talking. This is a man in his sixties, recently married. This aligns 100% with what others are saying about him. He basically attacks women. And Natasha Stoynoff told people about that at the time and respectable people came forward to confirm. And Trump's butler entered the room according to her description. 

Given the above it would be interesting to see Trump start a libel case, see him testify that he didn't do it. Somehow I have serious doubts he will actually start a libel case as he promised - at least if he listens to his lawyers.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> I remember Nate Bronze giving Trump virtually no shot at winning the primary about this time last year, despite him leading in the polls. The gambling markets didn't give him a shot either, which is why I was able to 3 and 4 times my money on a couple bets.


Statistics is as good as your data + your model. We have:

1. General election, USA, October => excellent dataset, everyone made up their minds, lots and lots of polls, tried and tested model, just 2 candidates. 

2. October with primaries not starting until March, people not made up their minds, a small dataset of people with unpolled unaffiliated voters playing an important role in selection... A huge number of candidates who split the field... I don't even know if Silver had any validated models from previous Republican primaries. 

1 -> It's going to work. 2 -> Crap data, untested model = crap result.


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> I remember Nate Bronze giving Trump virtually no shot at winning the primary about this time last year, despite him leading in the polls. The gambling markets didn't give him a shot either, which is why I was able to 3 and 4 times my money on a couple bets.


Did you put money on Trump winning the presidency? Good odds?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> LOOK-Nate Silver was DRAMATICALLY wrong about Trump winning the nomination-which means Nate Silver is either not a pollster at all, really just a pundit/predictor, or there is something seriously flawed with his polling methodology.



Best read up on what Nate does before further embarrassing yourself. He is neither pollster nor pundit. He developed a model to determine probabilities from aggregate polls. 

I suspect that Trump's probability of winning was modest when he was running against a dozen other Republicans in the primaries.


----------



## Nelley

Here is a great video exposing how Crooked Hillary is also Crazy Hillary-may God help us all if this whackjob becomes POTUS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NfFAaPZqs8


----------



## Argonaut

Nate Bronze was deliberately ignoring statistics to make false Trump predictions last year, which he admits himself here: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-i-acted-like-a-pundit-and-screwed-up-on-donald-trump/

It's a shame because statistics should be free from bias, but he showed himself to be as biased as anyone else.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> Nate Bronze was deliberately ignoring statistics to make false Trump predictions last year, which he admits himself here: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-i-acted-like-a-pundit-and-screwed-up-on-donald-trump/
> 
> It's a shame because statistics should be free from bias, but he showed himself to be as biased as anyone else.


Of course everyone is biased (aka has a point of view). It is not possible to stay neutral on someone like Trump. I think what Nate Silver is saying = he acted as a pundit in that particular case. So?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Best read up on what Nate does before further embarrassing yourself. He is neither pollster nor pundit. He developed a model to determine probabilities from aggregate polls.
> 
> I suspect that Trump's probability of winning was modest when he was running against a dozen other Republicans in the primaries.


Again you dig yourself in deeper-if this grifter simply uses other pollsters, obviously if those polls are flawed his result is flawed-that is simple math. So why keep bringing him up as some kind of independent expert?


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Of course everyone is biased (aka has a point of view). It is not possible to stay neutral on someone like Trump. I think what Nate Silver is saying = he acted as a pundit in that particular case. So?


SO?????? Because you and your little buddy keep mentioning this oracle's predictions as concrete evidence that Trump will lose-we aren't talking about this failed predictor.


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> Nate Bronze was deliberately ignoring statistics to make false Trump predictions last year, which he admits himself here: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-i-acted-like-a-pundit-and-screwed-up-on-donald-trump/
> 
> It's a shame because statistics should be free from bias, but he showed himself to be as biased as anyone else.


Good read. Nate disclosed the use of subjective evaluation in the primaries.

There is far more polling data available for the general election and his track record is pretty good. 

I don't know who Nate supports. He seems like a smart guy so probably Hillary but who knows.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> SO?????? Because you and your little buddy keep mentioning this oracle's predictions as concrete evidence that Trump will lose-we aren't talking about this failed predictor.


I don't think anything that's going to happen in the future can be referred to as "concrete". Have you noticed a sign of "%" next to Nate's estimates? 

Trump has a chance, e.g. Hillary could drop dead tomorrow or a tape could turn up with her prostituting her own daughter. Either of these two events would improve Trump's chances a bit. Overall there is a low but non-zero chance of Trump winning.

Hey, you are not alone. This talk show host also thinks that Trump is totally awesome AND destroyed Hillary during the debates: http://davidduke.com/dr-duke-mr-sho...-debate-unlike-any-other-in-american-history/


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> I don't think anything that's going to happen in the future can be referred to as "concrete". Have you noticed a sign of "%" next to Nate's estimates?
> 
> Trump has a chance, e.g. Hillary could drop dead tomorrow or a tape could turn up with her prostituting her own daughter. Either of these two events would improve Trump's chances a bit. Overall there is a low but non-zero chance of Trump winning.
> 
> Hey, you are not alone. This talk show host also thinks that Trump is totally awesome AND destroyed Hillary during the debates: http://davidduke.com/dr-duke-mr-sho...-debate-unlike-any-other-in-american-history/


Funny thing is-the guy reminds me of you.


----------



## olivaw

Funny ...

*Please Stay The F Out Of This, Canada*



> As much of a nightmare as this election season has been, we were at least able to take solace in the fact that we, as a nation, could sink no lower. But even that’s no longer true. Because now, Canada thinks they’re better than us. These are truly our darkest days.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> You know what Canada is? Canada is your annoying friend who insists on coming over with a bottle of wine (girls night!) to tell you how everything is going to be just fine even though you got laid off, put your dog down, and found out your husband has another family—two houses down. You tell Canada that you really just want to be alone right now, but Canada insists. Then, after two hours of Canada telling you that, no, it’s actually a good thing that you are 35 years old and have no job, pets, or relationship prospects, Canada goes home to its loving family and leaves you drunk and more miserable than when you started.
> 
> What I’m trying to say is, let us suffer in peace, Canada, and kindly f--k off.


----------



## Mukhang pera

Also funny...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kf9emkdbww


----------



## olivaw

^ She's like a mini-me version of Kayleigh McEnany. range:


----------



## sags

Trump's campaign is continuing on nicely.

They alienated the GOP committees in Ohio and Wisconsin. 

Melania Trump is out doing what they accuse Hillary Clinton of having done for her husband.

Trump is whining about a rigged system before the votes are counted. Republicans are wondering......if they win close elections was it rigged ?

And Clinton pulls ahead by 12 points in a most recent poll and dominates in electoral votes.

Trump is looking more orange just in time for Halloween. (maybe he should cut back on the carrot juice?)

All in all things are looking pretty good.:friendly_wink:


----------



## Nelley

Here is a good summary of the medical condition of the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr1IDQ2V1eM


----------



## TomB19

Maybe the reason nobody can find the missing email is because they were communications from Satan. Satan is clearly the only one with the power to make those message vanish. The messages were undoubtedly a brilliant and diabolical process that would have Hillary nuking the United States herself, after she has ruined it in every other way. I'm not saying this is true but it's the only possibility that makes any sense.


----------



## humble_pie

Mukhang pera said:


> Also funny...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kf9emkdbww




idk, how is it funny?

she's from dallas, there are always so many serious head cases in dallas


in other alt-right media news, the United Nations has barred Ezra Levant's the Rebel from sending reporters to a november conference on climate change in marrakech, morocco.

the head of the organization vetting journalists for accreditation to the UN conference says his group works hard to make sure reporters who get accreditation are objective media rather than advocacy groups pretending they're media.

levant is reportedly outraged & has appealed to justin trudeau for rescue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/10/18/the-rebel-un_n_12537124.html?utm_hp_ref=canada

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> idk, how is it funny?
> 
> she's from dallas, there are always so many serious head cases in dallas
> 
> 
> in other alt-right media news, the United Nations has barred Ezra Levant's the Rebel from sending reporters to a november conference on climate change in marrakech, morocco.
> 
> the head of the organization vetting journalists for accreditation to the UN conference says his group works hard to make sure reporters who get accreditation are objective media rather than advocacy groups pretending they're media.
> 
> levant is reportedly outraged & has appealed to justin trudeau for rescue.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/10/18/the-rebel-un_n_12537124.html?utm_hp_ref=canada
> 
> .


WOW-what a shock-you mean the UNITED NATIONS is corrupt? Say it isn't so-next you will be telling us FIFA is crooked.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> in other alt-right media news, the United Nations has barred Ezra Levant's the Rebel from sending reporters to a november conference on climate change in marrakech, morocco.
> 
> the head of the organization vetting journalists for accreditation to the UN conference says his group works hard to make sure reporters who get accreditation are objective media rather than advocacy groups pretending they're media.
> 
> levant is reportedly outraged & has appealed to justin trudeau for rescue.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/10/18/the-rebel-un_n_12537124.html?utm_hp_ref=canada
> 
> .


I guess "objective" means only those who share their point of view? Every one else must be silenced?


----------



## bass player

What a surprise...it was all fun and games and hilarity for the left when a statue of a naked Trump was put on display, but a naked statue of Hillary has caused the hypocritical and not so tolerant left to quiver with outrage:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...nton-sparks-fight-manhattan-article-1.2834970


----------



## Eder

It's pretty funny a bunch of women claimed being molested years ago and we believe them but yesterday another woman said it never happened and we don't believe her.Guess it woulda messed with the script or something.


----------



## bass player

It turns out that some of Hillary's secret emails were to and from Obama himself...of course, Obama can't face charges so the FBI investigation had to be tanked to protect him.

The rot goes right to the top and now the integrity of the DOJ and FBI have been tarnished by Obama and Hillary's cover-up.


----------



## olivaw

Eder said:


> It's pretty funny a bunch of women claimed being molested years ago and we believe them but yesterday another woman said it never happened and we don't believe her.Guess it woulda messed with the script or something.


Melania is sticking by her husband and people admire her for it. They admired Hillary when she stuck by Bill too. It's why Trump's attempt to bring up Bill's history didn't work.

As for allegations - who knows? The only thing we know for sure is that Trump bragged about molesting women to Billy Bush.

ETA: I'm glad there is a debate tomorrow so we can stop talking about the allegations and talk about something else.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> As for allegations - who knows? The only thing we know for sure is that Trump bragged about molesting women to Billy Bush.


Actually, no. He said "you can grab their p...", suggesting that they would let him, but he never once said that he grabbed anyone. What the media did was take one sentence out of several minutes and only showed that. I watched the entire video...not just what the media chose to show, and the comments he made were 5 seconds out of several minutes. The entire rest of the time he was a perfect gentleman...which is why the media won't show the full clip...people might put it into perspective and realize that it was no big deal.

CNN is now talking about him like he's a convicted serial rapist, instead of someone who simply engaged in locker room talk who has had unproven and highly suspect allegations conveniently made against him 3 weeks before the election.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Actually, no. He said "you can grab their p...", suggesting that they would let him, but he never once said that he grabbed anyone. *What the media did was take one sentence out of several minutes and only showed that**. I watched the entire video...not just what the media chose to show, and the comments he made were 5 seconds out of several minutes. The entire rest of the time he was a perfect gentleman...which is why the media won't show the full clip...people might put it into perspective and realize that it was no big deal.
> 
> CNN is now talking about him like he's a convicted serial rapist, instead of someone who simply engaged in locker room talk who has had unproven and highly suspect allegations conveniently made against him 3 weeks before the election.


**no*
*Again...*



mordko said:


> No, I don't watch any Hollywood gossip shows. Here is what Trump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that’s her, with the gold. I’ve got to use some Tic Tacs, just in case I start kissing her. You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. I just kiss. *I don’t even wait*. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. *You can do anything.*
> 
> Unidentified voice: Whatever you want.
> 
> Trump: *Grab them by the *****. You can do anything.*
> 
> 
> 
> This is not a teenager talking. This is a man in his sixties, recently married. This aligns 100% with what others are saying about him. He basically attacks women. And Natasha Stoynoff told people about that at the time and respectable people came forward to confirm. And Trump's butler entered the room according to her description.
> 
> Given the above it would be interesting to see Trump start a libel case, see him testify that he didn't do it. Somehow I have serious doubts he will actually start a libel case as he promised - at least if he listens to his lawyers.
Click to expand...

(bolding mine)
(in case you've actually not noticed that Mordko has already addressed this blind spot of yours).


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Actually, no. He said "you can grab their p...", suggesting that they would let him, but he never once said that he grabbed anyone.


We all heard the tape and it was absolutely clear what he meant. MrPPincher addressed that.

We heard his non-apology too. I wonder if that did more damage than the tape. 

The latest excuse out of the Trump campaign is that Trump said it because of Billy Bush. Check out hashtag #Billybushmademedoit


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Actually, no. He said "you can grab their p...", suggesting that they would let him, but he never once said that he grabbed anyone. What the media did was take one sentence out of several minutes and only showed that. I watched the entire video...not just what the media chose to show, and the comments he made were 5 seconds out of several minutes. The entire rest of the time he was a perfect gentleman...which is why the media won't show the full clip...people might put it into perspective and realize that it was no big deal.
> 
> CNN is now talking about him like he's a convicted serial rapist, instead of someone who simply engaged in locker room talk who has had unproven and highly suspect allegations conveniently made against him 3 weeks before the election.


The full clip has been shown in context many times on TV. The 'grab them' comment was definitely the soundbyte for being the most vulgar, but he also talked about kissing women without consent. Generally creepy behaviour. Not to mention trying to buy sexual favours from married women.

In the video, he and Bush then proceed to act like creeps to Zucker. Every woman has experienced someone being overly friendly and not knowing whether the guy is being a creep or not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-transcript.html?_r=0


> Donald J. Trump: You know and ...
> 
> Unknown: She used to be great. She’s still very beautiful.
> 
> Trump: I moved on her, actually. You know, she was down on Palm Beach. I moved on her, and I failed. I’ll admit it.
> 
> Unknown: Whoa.
> 
> Trump: I did try and **** her. She was married.
> 
> Unknown: That’s huge news.
> 
> Trump: No, no, Nancy. No, this was [unintelligible] — and I moved on her very heavily. In fact, I took her out furniture shopping.
> 
> She wanted to get some furniture. I said, “I’ll show you where they have some nice furniture.” I took her out furniture —
> 
> I moved on her like a *****. But I couldn’t get there. And she was married. Then all of a sudden I see her, she’s now got the big phony tits and everything. She’s totally changed her look.
> 
> Billy Bush: Sheesh, your girl’s hot as ****. In the purple.
> 
> Trump: Whoa! Whoa!
> 
> Bush: Yes! The Donald has scored. Whoa, my man!
> 
> [Crosstalk]
> 
> Trump: Look at you, you are a *****.
> 
> [Crosstalk]
> 
> Trump: All right, you and I will walk out.
> 
> [Silence]
> 
> Trump: Maybe it’s a different one.
> 
> Bush: It better not be the publicist. No, it’s, it’s her, it’s —
> 
> Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. *Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.*
> 
> Bush: Whatever you want.
> 
> Trump: Grab ’em by the *****. You can do anything.
> 
> Bush: Uh, yeah, those legs, all I can see is the legs.
> 
> Trump: Oh, it looks good.
> 
> Bush: Come on shorty.
> 
> Trump: Ooh, nice legs, huh?
> 
> Bush: Oof, get out of the way, honey. Oh, that’s good legs. Go ahead.
> 
> Trump: It’s always good if you don’t fall out of the bus. Like Ford, Gerald Ford, remember?
> 
> Bush: Down below, pull the handle.
> 
> Trump: Hello, how are you? Hi!
> 
> Arianne Zucker: Hi, Mr. Trump. How are you? Pleasure to meet you.
> 
> Trump: Nice seeing you. Terrific, terrific. You know Billy Bush?
> 
> Bush: Hello, nice to see you. How you doing, Arianne?
> 
> Zucker: Doing very well, thank you. Are you ready to be a soap star?
> 
> Trump: We’re ready, let’s go. Make me a soap star.
> 
> Bush: How about a little hug for the Donald? He just got off the bus.
> 
> Zucker: Would you like a little hug, darling?
> 
> Trump: O.K., absolutely. Melania said this was O.K.
> 
> Bush: How about a little hug for the Bushy? I just got off the bus.
> 
> Zucker: Bushy, Bushy.
> 
> Bush: Here we go. Excellent. Well, you’ve got a nice co-star here.
> 
> Zucker: Yes, absolutely.
> 
> Trump: Good. After you.
> 
> [Break in video]
> 
> Trump: Come on, Billy, don’t be shy.
> 
> Bush: Soon as a beautiful woman shows up, he just, he takes off. This always happens.
> 
> Trump: Get over here, Billy.
> 
> Zucker: I’m sorry, come here.
> 
> Bush: Let the little guy in here, come on.
> 
> Zucker: Yeah, let the little guy in. How you feel now? Better? I should actually be in the middle.
> 
> Bush: It’s hard to walk next to a guy like this.
> 
> Zucker: Here, wait, hold on.
> 
> Bush: Yeah, you get in the middle, there we go.
> 
> Trump: Good, that’s better.
> 
> Zucker: This is much better. This is —
> 
> Trump: That’s better.
> 
> Zucker: [Sighs]
> 
> Bush: Now, if you had to choose honestly between one of us. Me or the Donald?
> 
> Trump: I don’t know, that’s tough competition.
> 
> Zucker: That’s some pressure right there.
> 
> Bush: Seriously, if you had — if you had to take one of us as a date.
> 
> Zucker: I have to take the Fifth on that one.
> 
> Bush: Really?
> 
> Zucker: Yup — I’ll take both.
> 
> Trump: Which way?
> 
> Zucker: Make a right. Here we go. [inaudible]
> 
> Bush: Here he goes. I’m gonna leave you here.
> 
> Trump: O.K.
> 
> Bush: Give me my microphone.
> 
> Trump: O.K. Oh, you’re finished?
> 
> Bush: You’re my man, yeah.
> 
> Trump: Oh, good.
> 
> Bush: I’m gonna go do our show.
> 
> Zucker: Oh, you wanna reset? O.K.


----------



## mrPPincer

olivaw said:


> Funny ...
> 
> *Please Stay The F Out Of This, Canada*


Thanks for the laugh olivaw, woke up 4am-ish & couldn't sleep this morning, opened "all replies" and "all replies pending approval" on your link.
Good for a lot of good laughs 

Seems participants of whatever site that is have a great sense of sardonic humour 
Lots of witty repartee going on in the grey & non-greyed there.


----------



## Nelley

The corrupt MSM has a total ban on this video but it is going viral anyway https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY


----------



## andrewf

^You mean, Citizens United is cancer? I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with this. And the Republicans are all doing the same with with coordinating with Super PACs. 

The only thing that, to me, sounded potentially illegal was the coordination through intermediaries. I suspect it might be within the letter of the law. In spirit--who knows... Super PACs are inherently corrupt. 

The placing of agents provocateurs at opposition events has been done for decades, by both sides.


----------



## andrewf

Does anyone really believe that FOX wouldn't jump at the opportunity to go after Hillary on this if there was a hint of a story? The persecution complex is a little bit much.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Does anyone really believe that FOX wouldn't jump at the opportunity to go after Hillary on this if there was a hint of a story? The persecution complex is a little bit much.


I don't know-you have the supposed favorite to become POTUS in seclusion-nobody in the MSM seems to find that just a little strange.


----------



## olivaw

The video was covered on CNN. I believe that it was made and edited by the guy who did the falsified Planned Parenthood sting video. He's a convicted criminal.

The guy in the video doesn't even work for Hillary.

To change minds, Conspiracy Nelley needs to find a video of Hillary bragging about something illegal.


----------



## Argonaut

One of the guys who was fired because of these videos (Robert Creamer) was a regular visitor to Obama:

http://imgur.com/gallery/l8imh

You guys can spin it anyway you want, but these new videos and other evidence points to the Democratic Party being corrupt and rotten to the core.


----------



## olivaw

*Trump has invited the Kenyan born half brother of Barack Obama to sit in the audience at tomorrow's debate*. 

This will remind everyone about Trump's birther background. 

Maybe sags is right, Trump is trying his best to lose this thing.


----------



## new dog

They are all corrupt on both sides but Hillary is probably the most dangerous because she has gotten away with a lot. If she gets in she will bring corruption to a new level because there are no consequences and she has the media and the law makers in her pocket.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> *Trump has invited the Kenyan born half brother of Barack Obama to sit in the audience at tomorrow's debate*.
> 
> This will remind everyone about Trump's birther background.
> 
> Maybe sags is right, Trump is trying his best to lose this thing.


I'll be watching mainly to see Crooked Hillary grinning like the Joker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZQ5VROfBE


----------



## new dog

The video also mentions Trump whining about a rigged election. What I wonder is why the media doesn't rally against this ID thing and ask why the election isn't properly managed. The reason is their employer a Hillary backer wishes to keep it this way.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> I don't know-you have the supposed favorite to become POTUS in seclusion-nobody in the MSM seems to find that just a little strange.


Preparing for the debate tomorrow?

Seems to have worked well for her so far. I guess Trump is working on his zingers over KFC.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> The video also mentions Trump whining about a rigged election. What I wonder is why the media doesn't rally against this ID thing and ask why the election isn't properly managed. The reason is their employer a Hillary backer wishes to keep it this way.


Trump is smart to get ahead of this thing-he spends a lot of money on polling and his polls aren't even close to these MSM polls so he rightfully figures the fix is in-by publicly announcing it now he pressures the grifters a little bit.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Preparing for the debate tomorrow?
> 
> Seems to have worked well for her so far. I guess Trump is working on his zingers over KFC.


She has pretty well spent the last year resting in seclusion (by POTUS candidate standards)-no press conferences can be allowed because she can't handle the stimulation.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Trump is smart to get ahead of this thing-he spends a lot of money on polling and his polls aren't even close to these MSM polls so he rightfully figures the fix is in-by publicly announcing it now he pressures the grifters a little bit.


^Trump doesn't spend money on polls. He spends campaign money on renting equipment and facilities from his own companies but not on internal polling. He gets his data from Nate Silver at www.fivethirtyeight.com and www.RealClearPolitics.com.

Apparently he stays up half the night watching CNN too.


----------



## Nelley

What a whackjob-jeez https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAzIahY2Rps


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Given that both candidates are liars, and possibly bat **** crazy I think Trump would be the safer bet. You know the media and other politicians would be watching him like a hawk and never let him get away with anything, while the Democrats and media are already in bed with Clinton.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Trump is smart to get ahead of this thing-he spends a lot of money on polling and his polls aren't even close to these MSM polls so he rightfully figures the fix is in-by publicly announcing it now he pressures the grifters a little bit.


Where are the private polls funded by conservative organizations that back up the claim that all the public polls are rigged?

This is serious tin-foil hat stuff. A conspiracy involving thousands of people? Next you'll tell me big foot is real and 9/11 was an inside job.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Given that both candidates are liars, and possibly bat **** crazy I think Trump would be the safer bet. You know the media and other politicians would be watching him like a hawk and never let him get away with anything, while the Democrats and media are already in bed with Clinton.


Hillary is safer because Congress is controlled by Republicans? Would a GOP House and Senate stand up to a GOP president?


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Where are the private polls funded by conservative organizations that back up the claim that all the public polls are rigged?
> 
> This is serious tin-foil hat stuff. A conspiracy involving thousands of people? Next you'll tell me big foot is real and 9/11 was an inside job.


Elvis is alive-he says you are really stupid.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Given that both candidates are liars, and possibly bat **** crazy I think Trump would be the safer bet. You know the media and other politicians would be watching him like a hawk and never let him get away with anything, while the Democrats and media are already in bed with Clinton.



We've reached the point that Trump supporters don't even try to defend their man. They acknowledge that he is not up to the job. The best they can do now is try to convince us that Hillary is just as bad. It won't work.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Elvis is alive-he says you are really stupid.


Where are the polls?


----------



## new dog

Your right Hillary is not just as bad, she is just bad period.


----------



## new dog

andrewf said:


> Where are the polls?



You know there was once a TV show that tried to show evidence that Elvis was alive. I believe they did do some sort of poll afterwards.


----------



## olivaw

Hillary Clinton is probably the most qualified presidential candidate of my lifetime. She has been a First Lady, a Senator, a Secretary of State and a presidential nominee. 

She is the best vetted candidate in history. Millions of taxpayer, opposition and media dollars have been spent trying to dig up dirt on her. Even the Russian government is trying to take her down. 

She has been through attacks, hacks and slander. It would leave most of us curled up under the desk. Not Hillary. She's still standing and she's still smiling.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> She's still standing and she's still smiling.


She has serious mobility problems. She can barely walk across the stage,and that is not an exaggeration.
Smiling but often strange, grotesque facial expressions.

‘Rigged’ Was Hillary Clinton’s FBI Case



> Democrats are lucky in Trump but the scandal will follow her to the White House.
> 
> That’s the argument that Hillary Clinton is her party’s nominee and on her way to the White House only because the Obama administration decided to waive the law on handling classified material—and the FBI went along—in order to assure that its designated heiress would succeed to the presidency.
> 
> .............
> 
> If today’s Democratic campaign were being fought against a generic Republican without Mr. Trump’s distinct qualities and history, here’s what would dominate the news:
> 
> Mrs. Clinton was verbally convicted by the FBI chief for mishandling classified information yet somehow not formally charged.
> 
> Her aides were allowed to cut curious deals with FBI investigators that effectively swept under the rug any possible charges against them for obstruction or evidence tampering.
> 
> Those same aides have been revealed, through email leaks, to have freely mixed public and private interests, including their own and Clinton private interests, in the performance of jobs that, in some cases, saw them receiving salaries from the Clinton Foundation or the Clinton family even as they also worked for the taxpayer at the State Department.
> 
> The State Department itself, during Mrs. Clinton’s time as secretary, operated as an extension of the Clinton Foundation when it came to handling the requests and advancing the interests of important Clinton Foundation donors, some of which were foreign governments.
> 
> ........
> 
> There will be no bipartisan action on things that ail the American economy and hold back its growth. All of Washington will be enmeshed in a replay of the Watergate era, inward-looking, destructive, consumed with investigations and score-settling.




Bill Clinton's presidency became inward-looking because of the impeachment scandal.Hillary's administration may be just as sleazy and dysfunctional.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> She has serious mobility problems. She can barely walk across the stage,and that is not an exaggeration.
> Smiling but often strange, grotesque facial expressions.


Nah, she's fine. We've seen the debates, the rallies and the interviews. Hillary appears to be twice as healthy as Trump. The old health truth hypothesis has become something of a joke. 



> Rigged’ Was Hillary Clinton’s FBI Case


The Wall Street Journal is a right wing publication. The article you quoted is an opinion piece by Holman W. Jenkins Jr. He's not a lawyer. Some of the statements are all but nonsensical. 

For example, Jenkins said _"Mrs. Clinton was verbally convicted by the FBI chief for mishandling classified information yet somehow not formally charged."_. This sentence betrays a profound ignorance of the law. The FBI does not convict and certainly wouldn't make any statement that could be interpreted as "verbally convicted". What the FBI did say was that Hillary Clinton was careless with emails but the degree of carelessness did not rise to a level that would warrant charges. Numerous legal scholars and lawyers have weighed and agreed that the FBI made the right call. It is doubtful that a reasonable prosecutor would have attempt to prosecute. 

For an opinion written by a real lawyer see: http://lawnewz.com/opinion/james-co...cedented-improper-and-maybe-even-politicized/

Or: http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/we-...e-legal-expert-say-clinton-committed-a-crime/



> So as a legal website, we had to fact check this one. Does ‘virtually every single’ legal expert really believe Clinton committed a crime? The answer is no. In fact, legal experts are pretty divided. While there are several very credible legal minds who say she should be indicted based on the evidence, there are also plenty who believe she didn’t do anything legally wrong.


The email server damage is already baked into the poll numbers. One writers non-legal opinion in the Wall Street Journal won't make a difference. It doesn't support your inaccurate and speculative conclusion.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Hillary Clinton is probably the most qualified presidential candidate of my lifetime. She has been a First Lady, a Senator, a Secretary of State and a presidential nominee.
> 
> She is the best vetted candidate in history. Millions of taxpayer, opposition and media dollars have been spent trying to dig up dirt on her. Even the Russian government is trying to take her down.
> 
> She has been through attacks, hacks and slander. It would leave most of us curled up under the desk. Not Hillary. She's still standing and she's still smiling.


I saw a Russian sneaking around the neighbourhood last night-really sinister looking-who do we call to report these occurrences-everyone in our neighbourhood is just as scared as Olivaw and Humble.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Nah, she's fine. We've seen the debates, the rallies and the interviews. Hillary appears to be twice as healthy as Trump. The old health truth hypothesis has become something of a joke.
> 
> 
> The Wall Street Journal is a right wing publication. The article you quoted is an opinion piece by Holman W. Jenkins Jr. He's not a lawyer. Some of the statements are all but nonsensical.
> 
> For example, Jenkins said _"Mrs. Clinton was verbally convicted by the FBI chief for mishandling classified information yet somehow not formally charged."_. This sentence betrays a profound ignorance of the law. The FBI does not convict and certainly wouldn't make any statement that could be interpreted as "verbally convicted". What the FBI did say was that Hillary Clinton was careless with emails but the degree of carelessness did not rise to a level that would warrant charges. Numerous legal scholars and lawyers have weighed and agreed that the FBI made the right call. It is doubtful that a reasonable prosecutor would have attempt to prosecute.
> 
> For an opinion written by a real lawyer see: http://lawnewz.com/opinion/james-co...cedented-improper-and-maybe-even-politicized/
> 
> Or: http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/we-...e-legal-expert-say-clinton-committed-a-crime/
> 
> 
> 
> The email server damage is already baked into the poll numbers. One writers non-legal opinion in the Wall Street Journal won't make a difference. It doesn't support your inaccurate and speculative conclusion.


Crooked Hillary is fit as a fiddle-it is perfectly normal to fall down, freeze up, etc etc all the time. Happens to everybody on a weekly basis-right now she is just hiding out pumping iron-that video of her being thrown into her ambulance van like a sack of potatoes was just all CGI.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Nah, she's fine. We've seen the debates, the rallies and the interviews. Hillary appears to be twice as healthy as Trump. The old health truth hypothesis has become something of a joke.
> 
> 
> The Wall Street Journal is a right wing publication. The article you quoted is an opinion piece by Holman W. Jenkins Jr. He's not a lawyer. Some of the statements are all but nonsensical.
> 
> For example, Jenkins said _"Mrs. Clinton was verbally convicted by the FBI chief for mishandling classified information yet somehow not formally charged."_. This sentence betrays a profound ignorance of the law. The FBI does not convict and certainly wouldn't make any statement that could be interpreted as "verbally convicted". What the FBI did say was that Hillary Clinton was careless with emails but the degree of carelessness did not rise to a level that would warrant charges. Numerous legal scholars and lawyers have weighed and agreed that the FBI made the right call. It is doubtful that a reasonable prosecutor would have attempt to prosecute.
> 
> For an opinion written by a real lawyer see: http://lawnewz.com/opinion/james-co...cedented-improper-and-maybe-even-politicized/
> 
> Or: http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/we-...e-legal-expert-say-clinton-committed-a-crime/
> 
> 
> 
> The email server damage is already baked into the poll numbers. One writers non-legal opinion in the Wall Street Journal won't make a difference. It doesn't support your inaccurate and speculative conclusion.


Thank God the professional pollsters have managed to stay clean, clear of all the corruption that envelopes DC like a fog-LOL.


----------



## sags

Hillary Clinton knows how to get things done.

The Clinton Foundation needs millions of dollars to achieve their goals, so they need people who can afford to donate millions of dollars.

They want something in return for the donation, so Clinton agrees to a private meeting with them, or cuts them a deal on something...........so what.

That is how the sausage is made in real life. It isn't neat, tidy or attractive........but it works.

It is how it works in government as well. When candidates say they "can work with the other side" it is political speak for "let's make a deal".

In Canada we don't experience as much of it because a majority government can do whatever they want. 

They don't need or care if the opposition agrees with them. 

To be equivalent in the US, one political party would not only have to win the White House, Senate and Congress but would also have to convince enough Democrat and Republican members with their own local interests, to support them.

The US system is not structured for the best and most efficient governance.

There are so many "checks and balances" that gridlock is the most likely outcome for any legislation.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> They want something in return for the donation, so Clinton agrees to a private meeting with them, or cuts them a deal on something...........so what.


The so what is that if Hillary has directly exchanged political favour for donations to the Clinton Foundation, that would be influence peddling. There is no evidence of this but this is what Republicans are concerned about.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Hillary campaign takes a dump on main street America, literally.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3012323/c...umps-human-waste-down-storm-drain-in-georgia/

So far I have not bothered posting the hundreds of scandals swirling around the Clinton campaign but this one is too perfect in its symbolism. Note that this one was even picked up by the main stream media for those of you who don't believe anything that does not come from them.


----------



## bass player

^^

This is a perfect example of what Hillary thinks of America...it's hers to crap on whenever she wants, and someone else can clean up the mess.


----------



## Pluto

Hillary camp allegedly mortified by video of Bill Clinton Rape of girl. 

Is this for real or just baloney drama? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEM7L42x2xc


----------



## Nelley

Pluto said:


> Hillary camp allegedly mortified by video of Bill Clinton Rape of girl.
> 
> Is this for real or just baloney drama?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEM7L42x2xc


None of this is a secret-I am sure James Comey and the FBI will get right on it-LOL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-plane-junkets-26-TIMES-just-three-years.html


----------



## olivaw

Pluto said:


> Hillary camp allegedly mortified by video of Bill Clinton Rape of girl.
> 
> Is this for real or just baloney drama?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEM7L42x2xc


Baloney drama but *Trump is being sued* for allegedly raping a 13 year old girl.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Baloney drama but *Trump is being sued* for allegedly raping a 13 year old girl.


"the lawsuit appeared to have been coordinated by a former producer on the Jerry Springer TV show who has been associated in the past with a range of disputed claims involving celebrities including OJ Simpson and Kurt Cobain. A publicist acting for “Jane Doe” also attempted to sell a video in which the woman describes her allegations against Trump to media outlets at a $1m price tag.."

Yup, it sure sounds legit, lol...


----------



## SMK

Trump is many things but I don't believe either he or Bill are pedophiles.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> Trump is many things but I don't believe either he or Bill are pedophiles.


I doubt that Trump is, but why did Bill took 26 confirmed trips aboard convicted pedophile Epstein's private jet??


----------



## olivaw

Big debate tonight. 

Scientific polls say that Hillary Clinton won the first two debates. 

Donald Trump's fans and campaign staff say that Donald Trump won the first two debates. 

Conventional wisdom is that Trump needs to do something different in the next debate - perhaps act like a normal human being instead of a crazed homeless dude. But Trump probably believes that he did so well in the first two debates that he's going to act the same in the third. 

Parental guidance recommended.


----------



## olivaw

*As final debate looms, Hillary Clinton opens widest lead yet over Donald Trump* (CBC)

The detail in the story is more interesting than the headline. It appears that the ***** tape moved more male than female voters. 


> Clinton's advantage among female voters has only widened by an average of three points since these details emerged, according to the four pollsters. However, among men, Clinton has erased the eight-point lead Trump held.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Big debate tonight.
> 
> Scientific polls say that Hillary Clinton won the first two debates.
> 
> Donald Trump's fans and campaign staff say that Donald Trump won the first two debates.
> 
> Conventional wisdom is that Trump needs to do something different in the next debate - perhaps act like a normal human being instead of a crazed homeless dude. But Trump probably believes that he did so well in the first two debates that he's going to act the same in the third.
> 
> Parental guidance recommended.


Trump should come out swinging-totally ignore sheep like yourself and lay all the dirt out for anyone still undecided. The MSM has a total blackout on Wikileaks-he should just hammer away on it-just override the biased referees. Bernie voters (many of whom are good people) will eventually decide to stay home if they get the real story on this disgusting pig Hillary.


----------



## wraphter

bass player said:


> I doubt that Trump is, but why did Bill took 26 confirmed trips aboard convicted pedophile Epstein's private jet??


The rape charge against Trump stems from his association with Epstein as well. 



> And just last week, yet another “Jane Doe” filed a suit in New York accusing Epstein and Donald Trump of raping her at a series of sex parties when she was only 13.
> 
> Trump has denied Jane Doe’s claims and his reps have said he barely knew Epstein—even though New York media in the ’90s regularly chronicled his comings-and-goings at Epstein’s Upper East Side palace, and even though Epstein had 14 private numbers for Trump and his family in his little black book. Meanwhile, Bill and Hillary Clinton have remained mum about their ties to the Palm Beach pedophile—despite evidence that shows Bill was one of the most famous and frequent passengers on Epstein’s “Lolita Express” and that Epstein donated money to the Clinton Foundation even after his conviction.
> For months, talking heads have wondered whether Trump would use Epstein and his girls as a weapon against Bill and Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Now, with the latest federal lawsuit against Trump himself, it seems the notorious financier has become a serious liability for both campaigns.


When is the movie coming out?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Trump should come out swinging-totally ignore sheep like yourself and lay all the dirt out for anyone still undecided. The MSM has a total blackout on Wikileaks-he should just hammer away on it-just override the biased referees. Bernie voters (many of whom are good people) will eventually decide to stay home if they get the real story on this disgusting pig Hillary.


Yeah, Trump shouldn't hold back like he did in the first two debates. He needs to let loose and show us the real Donald Trump. :eagerness:


----------



## Argonaut

It will be fun. I watch it for pure entertainment sake. As we speak, the Democratic Party is bringing Hillary out of her induced coma since the last debate and programming her lines and facial gestures for the night. On the other hand, Trump is dragging the Republican party kicking and screaming behind him for a night of unpredictability.


----------



## mrPPincer

Argonaut said:


> It will be fun. I watch it for pure entertainment sake. As we speak, the Democratic Party is bringing Hillary out of her induced coma since the last debate and programming her lines and facial gestures for the night. On the other hand, Trump is dragging the Republican party kicking and screaming behind him for a night of unpredictability.


^LOL yep should be entertaining at least


----------



## mrPPincer

Just a thought but,
O'leary plays a billionaire on tv too, just like Trump.

Will anyone still think a circus clown is a match for the job after this?

If mr O'leary steps up (please no) , I'd hope he would go with substance and policy rather than empty rhetoric and sideshow antics.

There's a lesson to be learned here small c cons, if you can see it.

Substance, science based; if you can't get right with the science, and keep with the game plan of throwing **** into the fan and hope some of it sticks, well, this should be a lesson moment for you.

Enjoy the debate.

I will


----------



## andrewf

Pluto said:


> Hillary camp allegedly mortified by video of Bill Clinton Rape of girl.
> 
> Is this for real or just baloney drama?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEM7L42x2xc


Someone pretending to be Anonymous pretending to have a video. As they say on reddit/4chan, sauce please.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Last debate tonight 9:00 PM eastern time. You can watch it here

http://www.vox.com/2016/10/18/13313...bate-trump-clinton-time-live-stream-online-tv


----------



## olivaw

MrPPincer, 
O'Leary is wrong on many issues and he is unqualified for a leadership role... but ... he gives generously to charity, doesn't brag about molesting women and doesn't promote racism. O'Leary is head and shoulders above Trump.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Has someone on her staff been watching O Brother Where Art Thou? Hillary to bring her own dwarf to the debate.

http://www.omaha.com/news/politics/...cle_9d878f10-962b-11e6-83dd-07e36e49a2f8.html


----------



## andrewf

Hillary embarrasses Trump for the third time.

The ultimate humiliation coming in a few weeks.


----------



## olivaw

It was a good debate with policy discussions. 

Trump said he wouldn't promise to accept the election result. CNN says it was a huge mistake that ruined an otherwise decent performance.

I'd give the nod to Clinton but I think reasonable people could disagree.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Not true that no one has ever disputed an election. Has everyone forgotten 2000?


----------



## olivaw

^2000 was an automatic recount in Florida. Al Gore waited until the recount was over, then accepted the democratic process.


----------



## andrewf

The big dispute in 2000 was not about fraud, it was questionable ballots (dimpled chads) following an automatic recount.


----------



## sags

Trump simply can't stay focused on an issue, and it is evident at his rallies.......where it works, and in debates......where it doesn't work.

The cheering after each new one line attack works at rallies because the cheering provides a pause between the divergent statements. 

In a debate that is absent the cheering pauses, the same style becomes a string of unrelated random thoughts.

Clinton begins an answer with a short sentence, and then expands the point into paragraphs in a coherent manner.

Trump is all over the place, jumping from Syria to the Clinton Foundation to emails to biased media.

All of Trump's answers are a different combination of the same thoughts.

I don't think the debate helped Trump at all. It probably didn't hurt him as everyone has already left his campaign who is going to leave.

I think the election will end where the polls are now. Clinton wins by 8-10% of the popular vote and wins over 350 electoral votes.


----------



## olivaw

CNN instant debate poll:

Clinton: 52%
Trump: 39%


----------



## sags

CNN is making a lot of Trump's refusal to say he will accept the results of the vote. I don't think it is a big deal because it is nothing new.

It seems VP Mike Pence doesn't agree with Trump again. He must be thinking.......I gave up a promising career for this ?

Trump's statement that he will reveal all later is the same as revealing his plans to defeat ISIS, and how he is going to "fix" everything else.

When he has no actual plan, he always says he will reveal his plan later..........after he is elected.

It would be pretty hard to get elected to any political office with that strategy, let alone the office of President of the US.


----------



## TomB19

I was astonished at how well Hillary did. Good for her. She held her own in the scrums and was on message all night.

The most interesting thing about US election cycles is finding out what Trumped up BS the Republican party is going to use to smear the Democrat. As best I can tell, they know they have zero chance running on issues. lol!

The US would be far more successful if they had a strong Republican candidate to provide a real choice to the Democrats.

Now it's looking like Republicans will lose the senate and slip a bit in the house.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> It would be pretty hard to get elected to any political office with that strategy, let alone the office of President of the US.


40% of the American electorate would vote for a Republican who admitted to walking into a woman's changing room so he could get a look at some young women in the nude. I think you're underselling how polarized the electorate is along party lines.


----------



## olivaw

"keep you in suspense" is a terrible answer but it is Trump's answer to many questions. 

It shouldn't be an answer to a question about whether he will accept the will of the voters. Once again, Trump shoots himself in the foot.


----------



## sags

Can someone explain why they have a live audience and then tell them not to make a sound repeatedly ?

I would prefer a debate like the VP debate with no audience. The two candidates sitting opposite in armchairs with a moderator between.

And they advertise the debate as 90 minutes with no washroom breaks, as if it is crucially important the candidates can hold their pee.

What is up with that ? Is it a combination debate and bladder holding competition ?

Americans are starting to weird me out. Next will be "feats of strength" I think they already included the "airing of grievances".

Life imitates art..........and it seems appropriate in so many ways.


----------



## olivaw

CNN isreplaying the moment Trump said he would keep voters in suspense on CNN and Hillary's response. Rewatching it, Hillary managed to turn it into a significant talking point.

Trump may have figuratively punched himself in the "whatever" with those little hands of his.


----------



## sags

When asked the question, it looked like Trump was searching for an answer and he blurted out his response. 

When asked again.........basically given a second chance by Fox News moderator, he doubled down on a dumb answer.

It will be shown over and over ad nauseum and used to portray Trump as everything from a sore loser to a traitor to democracy.

And all because he wasn't prepared for the question. 

Donald........even the best athletes in the world and the best musicians in the world practice to get better.

As one famous athlete once remarked when asked if a lot of his success was luck, he said the more he practiced the better his "luck."


----------



## mordko

For the first time, Trump made sense. From guns, to immigration, to abortions, to refusing the acceptance of results, he played to his narrow base and didn't try to target the undecided voters. 

He knows he has lost it and is trying to minimize the margin.


----------



## indexxx

Trump accusing Hillary and Obama of paying people to cause problems at his rallies was a very bad move.


----------



## Eder

I think at this point the election should be delayed 6 months and 2 new candidates should be on the ballot. I'm embarrassed for the human race after tonite.


----------



## sags

I found Trump's reply to Clinton's statements that he outsources work to 12 different countries, bought Chinese steel for his buildings, and underpaid illegal workers by threatening them with deportation rather astounding. He basically said...I do it because I can and it is Hillary's fault for not stopping me.

His comments won't sit very well in US states where manufacturing has been hollowed out, including some battleground swing states.


----------



## olivaw

^Hillary continues to hammer Trump about blaming other people for his misdeeds. Then Trump admits to buying Chinese steel and underpaying illegal workers - and goes on to blame Hillary Clinton for it.

As you said, it doesn't play as well in the rust belt.


----------



## new dog

If Clinton wins I hope you guys are right. She said she would go into Syria and back down Russia and Assad and put in the no fly zones or whatever. We are running out of room in the middle east and I do hope that it works out because so far it hasn't. Most here are stuck in the sand and think everyone will bow down before the might of the US and again I hope you are right.


----------



## olivaw

^ Valid concern. 

My understanding of Hillary's answer was that the no fly zone would be preceded by serious negotiation. She was hinting that US military intervention was not going to be taken off the table when dealing with Assad. 

It's an awful situation. Assad made the decision to bomb his own people. He created the worst refugee crisis of our time. If Assad and Putin bomb Syria into oblivion, will all those refugees return home to live under a monster? What if his bombing goes on for years?


----------



## sags

From her comments, it sounded like she said she would implement safe zones.......as in plural, and a no fly zone.....singular.

I am wondering if she is contemplating several safe zones throughout Syria and a complete no fly zone over the whole of Syria.

She did say she would be consulting with Russia, and I would guess would offer some assurances that rebel activity would cease if Assad cooperated. Perhaps an agreement could be reached for the Russians to keep a tight rein on him.

It would be one of those "quid pro quo" deals the Republicans love about Clinton.


----------



## humble_pie

the details that hillary clinton offered in last night's debate re the no-fly zone proposal in syria sounded eminently practical & workable. She made 100% clear that multilateral negotiation & agreement will have to precede such a zone. Once again, as she has done before, clinton made clear that the objective is only to provide a safe zone on the ground where the residents of Aleppo can be housed & cared for while fighting continues in Aleppo itself.

just taking into consideration the period since crimea, it's been noticeable that vladimir putin does respond to the pressures of world opinion, at least on some issues, at least some of the time. I for one do not demonize the russian leader as some cmffers choose to do.

a temporary cease-fire with russian cooperation was achieved only a month ago. It was quickly broken, but that does not mean it cannot be achieved again. Even yesterday during the debate & for a couple of preceding days, another brief cease-fire in syria was - still is afaik - in force & effect.

something similar will likely happen in Mosul. Part of the long-drawn-out preparation there is to allow the residents of Mosul time to safely escape before battle begins. A grave problem is that apparently not enough civilians are opting to escape, at least not yet.

donald trump demonstrated during the debate that he does not understand any of this. In fact the donald never appears to understand one iota about military operations. 

.


----------



## olivaw

Good points, the term "safe zones" sounded less confrontational than no-fly-zones. Hillary explained that her plan was to negotiate safe places for non combatants. Dare I dream of an international coalition of peacekeepers? 

Trump is clueless when it comes to Mosul. He claims that generals are spinning in their graves because it was not a surprise attack. He seems oblivious to the point about providing civilian residents with time to vacate the area before the bombings begin.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> Good points, the term "safe zones" sounded less confrontational than no-fly-zones. Hillary explained that her plan was to negotiate safe places for non combatants. Dare I dream of an international coalition of peacekeepers?



maybe daring to dream is too much for the present times, but i do believe that mr. Putin is not an outlaw. He may be ruthless & cunning but he does not appear to be beyond or outside world opinion. I also have a certain respect for mr. Lavrov the foreign minister.

.


----------



## humble_pie

i only heard a few fragments of commentary after the debate, but already commentators were saying that it was trump's best debate performance to date.

what was that all about? i still saw an impulse-ridden creature interrupting hillary clinton over & over & over again. What was comical was that, some of the time, trump was making an obvious effort to prevent himself from interrupting. But his mouth & facial muscles kept on working & jerking wildly.

i won't even start on roe v. wade. Or what a silver-spoon baby who's led a foolish glitzy life thinks he's even doing, promising factory workers in the rust belt states that he's going to gets them all their jobs back, only better. Promising he's going to reduce national debt to zero because there'll be "so much employment." Promising he's going to "make America great" again.


.


----------



## olivaw

Sure, it was his best debate performance but the bar was lowered by his prior performances. He managed to avoid the histrionics that we witnessed in the other debates, at least for the first half. After that, he slipped up.

He said "bad hombre" referring to Latinos.
He called Hillary a nasty woman while she was speaking - very undignified.
He hedged on accepting the outcome of the vote wth a flippant comment about keeping people in suspense.
He pushed a few conspiracy theories"

These were unforced errors that betrayed a lack of discipline and preparedness. I think he blew his chance to turn this thing around.


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> 40% of the American electorate would vote for a Republican who admitted to walking into a woman's changing room so he could get a look at some young women in the nude. I think you're underselling how polarized the electorate is along party lines.


Trump is hardly a conventional Republican. His nomination has divided the Republican Party.Trump has openly split with
Paul Ryan,Speaker of the House. Ryan has said that Republican candidates can look after themselves and do not have to support Trump. Trump is the leader of the Trump Party . His support of abortion is phony. He is on record making pro-choice statements. Traditionally Republicans are hawks regarding foreign policy. Trump refused to admit that the hacking of the DNC
and the emails of Podesta was done by the Russians. Trump has insulted Rubio, Jeb Bush and McCain. He is not a real
Republican.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Assad made the decision to bomb his own people. He created the worst refugee crisis of our time. If Assad and Putin bomb Syria into oblivion, will all those refugees return home to live under a monster? What if his bombing goes on for years?


Obama by his passivity permitted the slaughter in Syria to occur.If he had intervened early on he could have prevented it.He could not allow himself to be a Western colonialist like George W. He did not support the uprising 
by the Syrian Sunnis when it started after the Arab Spring . He did not want to antagonize the Iranians who backed Assad
because he wanted to do the nuclear deal with them. 

Obama deserves part of the blame for the death of hundreds of thousands of Syrians.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> maybe daring to dream is too much for the present times, but i do believe that mr. Putin is not an outlaw. He may be ruthless & cunning but he does not appear to be beyond or outside world opinion. I also have a certain respect for mr. Lavrov the foreign minister.
> 
> .


There is ample evidence that Putin is not amenable to reason and compromise. He is a ruthless bureaucratic killer who is akin
to a mafia don.
The time for talk has passed.That ship has sailed. 

In Europe they are called Putin Verstehers, Putin understanders.



> WHEN Germans add the word Versteher (one who understands) to a term, they generally mix flattery with irony. So a Frauenversteher (one who understands women) is usually a man who boasts excessively about his knowledge of the opposite sex. The label is now being attached to so-called Russlandversteher or Putinversteher: members of the elite or intelligentsia who gush with empathy for Russia and its president, Vladimir Putin, on talk shows, in journals and at dinner parties.
> 
> They include two former Social Democratic chancellors. In the newspaper Die Zeit, Helmut Schmidt said Mr Putin’s annexation of Crimea was not quite “legitimate” but certainly “understandable”. Gerhard Schröder went further and threw himself into Mr Putin’s hug at a party in St Petersburg in late April (ostensibly to mark Mr Schröder’s 70th birthday).



When the Russian nuclear submarine 'Kursk' sank to the bottom of the Baltic Sea the sailors were still alive for some time
and could have possibly been rescued. Putin reluctantly returned from his vacation in Sochi.
He refused to ask a foreign country for help because Russia did not have the necessary equipment. He did not want to be seen as weak. Instead he let the sailors die.

There are repeated nuclear threats coming out of Russia.

He knew Angela Merkel was afraid of dogs. So he brought a very large dog into her presence to make her afraid.

There was the Litvinenko assassination in London with polonium designed to send a message to the Brits.
The inquiry said he probably approved it.



Putin gets pleasure intimidating and hurting people and nations. He is a sadist.He is incorrigible.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> There is ample evidence that Putin is not amenable to reason and compromise. He is a ruthless bureaucratic killer ...



i did not suggest otherwise. He still demonstrably hears, listens to & understands world opinion. Those are the points of contact the west has to work with.

hillary clinton understands this. So does tiny canada's - tiny on the world stage - justin trudeau.

.


----------



## SMK

Clinton was the angriest last night when asked about her leaked open trade and border comments, and wasted no time to talk about Russia's interference in the election. I wonder if she would have shown same concern had any damaging comments been about Trump.

By the way, I thought she looked terrific, and very healthy.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> Trump is hardly a conventional Republican.


... and still the base will vote for him like a command from God.


----------



## humble_pie

SMK said:


> Clinton was the angriest last night when asked about her leaked open trade and border comments



absolutely not. That shambling, grimacing, glaring oaf with the squinty eyes, the ill-fitting dentures & the ever-jerking twitching mouth was as angry as he has ever been.

on the russian manipulation of wikileaks, this is beyond shocking. The implications are appalling. Clinton is correct when she says that moscow regards donald trump as a puppet. Trump is the ignoramus russia wants to use to break up NATO. One can hear them drooling in the kremlin.

to make things truly complicated, any objective onlooker can see that moscow has a legitimate grievance against NATO. I for one have never understood why NATO is building that missile shield so close to the russian border, which presumably is one of the kremlin-seen aggravations which caused russia to invade crimea in order to secure sevastopol ...

(& the ankle-bone is connected to the shin-bone) (& the shin-bone is connected to the knee-bone) (etc)

it will take unheard-of skill to deal with this dangerous pile-up of global military. Hillary clinton is a decent bet to possess some of those skills.

.


----------



## SMK

I wasnt comparing Clinton to Trump, what I said is that she was the angriest I've seen her in either debate, in my opinion at least. I also didn't criticize her valid comments concerning Russia.


----------



## Eclectic12

sags said:


> CNN is making a lot of Trump's refusal to say he will accept the results of the vote. I don't think it is a big deal because it is nothing new ...


To his supporters or Hillary's supporters ... sure.

For the undecided - I am not so sure.



Time will tell.


Cheers


----------



## TomB19

I think Hillary will be fine. It will be interesting to see how close she follows the course set by Obama.

Hillary is imperfect but, in order to believe that Hillary is crooked, a person has to believe the Republican smear campaign that will be prosecuted against every Democratic candidate until the end of time or until the south secedes from the union in order to return to slavery and implement the feudal system.


----------



## SMK

^Clinton has waited a long time to become president, so if and when she does, she'll step out of anyone's shadow. She's much tougher and more intelligent than Obama, in my opinion.


----------



## Nelley

To summarize the posts of Olivaw, Sags, Humble, etc.-the crimes committed by Crooked Hillary are OK because Putin Putin Putin Putin.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I think Hillary will be fine. It will be interesting to see how close she follows the course set by Obama.
> 
> Hillary is imperfect but, in order to believe that Hillary is crooked, a person has to believe the Republican smear campaign that will be prosecuted against every Democratic candidate until the end of time or until the south secedes from the union in order to return to slavery and implement the feudal system.


That one is too subtle for this crowd.


----------



## new dog

I am not sure what is going to happen in Syria but I do know that Assad is not going anywhere. Russia will do anything to keep him in power because they cannot lose Syria it is to important to them. If the US forces its way into Syria or does the safe zones and no fly zones but at the same time arms the rebels I don't think that is going to help anyone and could cause a major war for the world not just Syria.

I would think for these ideas to work it will have to come from many nations and not just the US. They will have to show that they mean to help the people of Syria and not some scam that tries to arm rebels or continued attempts to get rid of Assad.


----------



## SMK

Nelley said:


> To summarize the posts of Olivaw, Sags, Humble, etc.-the crimes committed by Crooked Hillary are OK because Putin Putin Putin Putin.


You don't need to convince many over and over that she's "crooked" and much more. She isn't the most hated female politician in America for more than a quarter century for no reason. But she's better than Trump.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> To summarize the posts of Olivaw, Sags, Humble, etc.-the crimes committed by Crooked Hillary are OK because Putin Putin Putin Putin.


Those crimes were made up by partisan hacks, such as yourself.

There have been 33 Benghazi hearings. How many times have we heard that new evidence would break it wide open and put Hillary in jail? Republicans have never had any evidence. Those calling for the hearings should be put in jail for misuse of power and resource.

The FBI investigated her and she was exonerated.

... and yet Republicans declare corruption when they don't get a conviction. That is the Rosetta stone of partisan hackery.

Now, I'm not saying I think she's perfect or even that I like her policies... I don't but I expect she will be OK.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Those crimes were made up by partisan hacks, such as yourself.
> 
> There have been 33 Benghazi hearings. How many times have we heard that new evidence would break it wide open and put Hillary in jail? Republicans have never had any evidence. Those calling for the hearings should be put in jail for misuse of power and resource.
> 
> The FBI investigated her and she was exonerated.
> 
> ... and yet Republicans declare corruption when they don't get a conviction. That is the Rosetta stone of partisan hackery.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying I think she's perfect or even that I like her policies... I don't but I expect she will be OK.


Your queen forgot to mention that the 33000 emails were destroyed/bleached because they needed to be protected from PUTIN PUTIN PUTIN.


----------



## TomB19

It's been investigated directly. She was not prosecuted.

... and yet Republicans continue to conclude that if their knee-jerk smear jobs, based on ignorance and founded on fantasy, don't fly, it must be due to corruption. The idea they could be wrong is not something they would entertain.

Republicans should get used to the idea of being wrong, since the lunatic nature of the base makes being wrong something they accel at.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> It's been investigated directly. She was not prosecuted.
> 
> ... and yet Republicans continue to conclude that if their knee-jerk smear jobs, based on ignorance and founded on fantasy, don't fly, it must be due to corruption. The idea they could be wrong is not something they would entertain.
> 
> Republicans should get used to the idea of being wrong, since the lunatic nature of the base makes being wrong something they accel at.


It is the old the dog ate my homework-PUTIN destroyed the 33000 emails. I am surprised she didn't say this-the braindead sheep would eat it up.


----------



## TomB19

It's not that at all. It's the old... Nelley changing the dialog to get in a sound bite he thinks makes him sound right... when it just makes him look like a moron.


----------



## TomB19

Oh, yes. One more thing, Nelley.

Good morning!


----------



## olivaw

Nelley doesn't seem to be having a good morning. Very cranky today. Perhaps Nelley has come to realize what the rest of us already knew: 

Trump is toast.


----------



## agent99

Suppose Hillary does win, which she should unless something else happens between now and the election.

Then, with Republicans still controlling the House and perhaps the Senate, they find stronger evidence that Hillary did do something illegal while Sec of State. They then start impeachment proceedings. Presumably She has to carry on as President while defending herself? 

Could be a huge mess. (But probably no worse than having Octopussy as President  )

Just glad we don't live there, but much or turmoil rubs off on us anyway.


----------



## TomB19

I like posting with Nelley. I like it when he attacks me. I enjoy watching him launch an argument when he's backed into a corner. Actually, he has made a decent job of it.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Nelley doesn't seem to be having a good morning. Very cranky today. Perhaps Nelley has come to realize what the rest of us already knew:
> 
> Trump is toast.


The reality is that I have never once made a prediction on this election-I sure wouldn't bet on it-if Crooked Hillary wins things will get real for sure as this Doctor explains https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKIM1SR_Po


----------



## TomB19

agent99 said:


> Then, with Republicans still controlling the House and perhaps the Senate, they find stronger evidence that Hillary did do something illegal while Sec of State. They then start impeachment proceedings. Presumably She has to carry on as President while defending herself?
> 
> Could be a huge mess. But probably no worse than having Octopussy as President.


The odds of Republicans retaining control of the Senate are pretty low. The circus they have put on for the world has cost them dearly. I'm pretty sure they will also lose some seats in the house, although they will undoubtedly retain control.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> The reality is that I have never once made a prediction on this election-I sure wouldn't bet on it-if Crooked Hillary wins things will get real for sure as this Doctor explains https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKIM1SR_Po


Oh, yes. Hillary's parkinsons. lmao!


----------



## sags

I was surprised at Hillary Clinton's response when questioned on her "open borders" comments during a speech she gave.

She didn't answer and immediately pivoted to another subject. 

I always thought her open border comment referred specifically to trade, as that was the context of that part of her speech to the group of bankers. I thought she was referring to an open border for trade, that met her qualification of equal and fair trade. I can't imagine she meant open borders in a context of the free movement of people without restriction, which seemed to be the context of Chris Wallace's question.

She didn't answer and pivoted away from the question..............so now I am not sure what exactly she meant.

These debates become so disjointed that it is hard to follow the bouncing ball.


----------



## sags

Hillary Clinton remains very much in control of her emotions, but on the occasions where her feathers get ruffled a little too much for her taste, she has revealed that she can turn very quickly into the stone lady and give as good as she takes. 

Clinton doesn't give the impression she would be a weak leader. On the contrary she shows she has command of her emotions.

She reminds me of a more liberal version of Margaret Thatcher.

As a Senator, Clinton was a single vote and couldn't change very much on her own. As the Secretary of State, she served at President Obama's discretion and implemented his foreign policy directives. 

As the President, she will direct and be responsible for US foreign policy.


----------



## Argonaut

I enjoyed the debate. I was surprised that for the first half, it actually focused on policy and the difference in opinion in the two candidates, which is what the debate is supposed to do for undecided voters. Chris Wallace was the best moderator. He was tough on both. Like I said, Fox News is now the most politically neutral mainstream media network which would have been very funny 10 years ago.

I think Donald did a good job highlighting past failures of Clinton and the current administration, and it's true that the USA is truly getting outplayed in the Middle East. Big league. It may have been an error not to explain his position better on "rigging" the election, though. Clinton did a good job staying on script and keeping composed, but I have a hard time believing anything she says. Just another politician who will over-promise and under-deliver.

For a campaign focused mainly on negatives, it comes down to whether voters are more comfortable with massive corruption or outrageous behaviour.


----------



## TomB19

Barack Obama has tried, and mostly succeeded, to shut down border enforcement on the Mexican side. It is a policy that is common among both Republicans and Democrats that would prevent them from becoming elected, if they were to openly admit to it.

I don't see any reason to believe Hillary would be any different in this regard.

Trump is unique, when it comes to border enforcement. It was one of the refreshing things about him.

When I can't go to Disney World without being interrogated by border guards who scrutinize details of my trip like the hotel I'm staying at, length of stay, purpose of the trip, etc., while other border guards enjoy scrutinizing my wife's **** with their Disrobulator 2000 - Crotchtastic Edition, but people can walk in from Mexico and law enforcement is told to let them enter, something very wrong is taking place.

The wall was a stupid idea but border enforcement is not.


----------



## sags

Most illegal immigrants in the US simply enter the US on a "vacation" and never return to Mexico. 

Without banning all visitors from Mexico, I don't know how the US could stop that flow. 

The attraction to the US is the opportunity for work, which US employers are offering to illegal aliens to have access to cheap labor.

If there was no work for underpaid illegal aliens, it would help staunch the flow of illegal immigrants, more than a wall.

The US and many countries around the world, including Canada, face demographic problems in an aging population in the future.

We need increased immigration to sustain our economy and allow it to grow. We will need to improve the worker versus retiree ratio and contribute to the government revenue that will be required. It was interesting to note that Clinton said illegal aliens are paying taxes while Donald Trump does not, and Trump agreed with her and blamed poor tax laws for letting him do it.

Incidentally, Trump's statement that Warren Buffet follows the same policy is patently false.

Buffet released his statements and he pays millions in taxes, despite having many more millions in charitable contributions that would reduce his taxes but that he doesn't claim. Warren Buffet chooses to pay taxes, when he doesn't have to.

Unfortunately the timing is terrible for a policy of higher immigration. Current low GDP growth and weak job creation, combined with retirees with insufficient retirement income forced to continue in the workforce are creating a temporary false scenario that mask future problems.

It is a sticky wicket situation.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Oh, yes. Hillary's parkinsons. lmao!


We might as well laugh if this nutjob is in control of the nukes-at least we won't need to worry about global warming-LOOK-Bawwoons!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZQ5VROfBE


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> I was surprised at Hillary Clinton's response when questioned on her "open borders" comments during a speech she gave.
> 
> *She didn't answer and immediately pivoted to another subject.*


Listen again she did answer. But was livid at Wallace's WikiLeaks question for quoting in full, including the amount she got paid, and almost lecturing him for not asking "the most important question."

16:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEvXXS2zcb8


----------



## sags

I didn't hear Clinton say how "open borders" meshed with "energy".

We already have an open border policy between the US/Canada on energy.

The Great Lakes circuit for hydro covers the US and Canada. Years ago a failure at a small sub-station in the US caused a complete blackout in Ontario.

Gas and oil flow across the border every day, so what open border policy is Clinton talking about in energy ?

New pipelines.....which the Obama administration vetoed ? Will Clinton approve the Keystone Pipeline ?

I think...Clinton made those comments to bankers before economic conditions caused the public outrage on free trade deals, and she doesn't want to admit her strong past support for free trade deals that China and others have exploited.

Clinton was pressured on free trade by Sanders supporters in the Democratic Party........and now she is more cautious.

She says she wants free trade deals.........which meet her criteria. She has one foot in.........and one foot out.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Most illegal immigrants in the US simply enter the US on a "vacation" and never return to Mexico.
> 
> Without banning all visitors from Mexico, I don't know how the US could stop that flow.
> 
> The attraction to the US is the opportunity for work, which US employers are offering to illegal aliens to have access to cheap labor.
> 
> If there was no work for underpaid illegal aliens, it would help staunch the flow of illegal immigrants, more than a wall.
> 
> The US and many countries around the world, including Canada, face demographic problems in an aging population in the future.
> 
> We need increased immigration to sustain our economy and allow it to grow. We will need to improve the worker versus retiree ratio and contribute to the government revenue that will be required. It was interesting to note that Clinton said illegal aliens are paying taxes while Donald Trump does not, and Trump agreed with her and blamed poor tax laws for letting him do it.
> 
> Incidentally, Trump's statement that Warren Buffet follows the same policy is patently false.
> 
> Buffet released his statements and he pays millions in taxes, despite having many more millions in charitable contributions that would reduce his taxes but that he doesn't claim. Warren Buffet chooses to pay taxes, when he doesn't have to.
> 
> Unfortunately the timing is terrible for a policy of higher immigration. Current low GDP growth and weak job creation, combined with retirees with insufficient retirement income forced to continue in the workforce are creating a temporary false scenario that mask future problems.
> 
> It is a sticky wicket situation.


Oh brother-Saint Warren Buffett was the largest single winner of the US taxpayer bailout-estimated as high as 20 BILLION dollars for Warren right from the taxpayer-so give us a break.


----------



## sags

It was Warren Buffet's money that helped save a total financial meltdown, when companies couldn't access capital anywhere else.

Are you one of those who would have preferred the government and people like Buffet stood by and let it all come crashing down ?

Do you adopt the Trump "burn it all down" philosophy on everything ?


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Oh brother-Saint Warren Buffett was the largest single winner of the US taxpayer bailout-estimated as high as 20 BILLION dollars for Warren right from the taxpayer-so give us a break.


I haven't heard this before, but I've been hanging out with thinking people.

How did buffett make $20B of government bailout money? This ought to be good. 


I've watched a ton of Buffett YouTube video and, best I can tell, many reached out to him during the crisis but he didn't engage with most of them. He only engaged when it made business sense. I wouldn't consider him a savior but I do consider him a patriot.


----------



## tygrus

Buffet's money helped bail out a few of the failing banks., He got shares back for his investment. Then the govt went on to pour 10 trillion dollars into the economy and rescue those institutions., then QE1,2,3 from the fed - another 5 trillion, low interest rates etc. So the companies he saved and all those he held through berkshire got a huge indirect value increase because of that stimulus. I think 20 billion is probably on the low side.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> We might as well laugh if this nutjob is in control of the nukes-at least we won't need to worry about global warming-LOOK-Bawwoons!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeZQ5VROfBE


Have you accused Hillary of sexual assault, yet? The Republican base SOP is to blame Hillary for your candidate's problems so you need to work that in soon.


----------



## wraphter

Leading Republican Senator John McCain distances himself from Trump who refuses to concede the election if he loses.



> Sen. John McCain never mentioned Donald Trump by name in a statement Thursday “regarding the integrity of the U.S. election system.”
> 
> But McCain, the 2008 Republican presidential nominee, seemed to be speaking to Trump and urging a graceful concession of defeat should Trump lose the presidential race as McCain did.
> 
> "I didn’t like the outcome of the 2008 election. But I had a duty to concede, and I did so without reluctance,” McCain said. “A concession isn’t just an exercise in graciousness. It is an act of respect for the will of the American people, a respect that is every American leader’s first responsibility.”
> 
> McCain, who is seeking reelection next month, said Arizona voters should be confident in the integrity of the election.
> 
> “Free and fair elections and the peaceful transfer of power are the pride of our country, and the envy of much of the world because they are the means to protecting our most cherished values, the right to liberty and equal justice,” he said.
> 
> "America has a reputation and an example to uphold in the eyes of the world that is at the core of our ability to influence world events."


Trump appears not to understand American democracy.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> Trump appears not to understand American democracy.


Trump doesn't understand hairspray. He thinks it isn't possible for CFCs from hairspray to get out of his apartment and into the atmosphere.


----------



## sags

TomB19 said:


> Trump doesn't understand hairspray. He thinks it isn't possible for CFCs from hairspray to get out of his apartment and into the atmosphere.


Some exotic animal gave up their life for that hairpiece Donald wears :eek-new:


----------



## sags

Today, Donald is making jokes about it......maybe he will recognize the results if he wins and maybe not if Clinton wins.

He is playing games with the Republicans and enjoying every minute of it. 

He is hanging his VP and campaign out to swing in the wind every day.

He knows he is going to lose and it is pay back time. In Donald's world, that means get even with Republicans too.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I haven't heard this before, but I've been hanging out with thinking people.
> 
> How did buffett make $20B of government bailout money? This ought to be good.
> 
> 
> I've watched a ton of Buffett YouTube video and, best I can tell, many reached out to him during the crisis but he didn't engage with most of them. He only engaged when it made business sense. I wouldn't consider him a savior but I do consider him a patriot.


Einstein: Buffett is the largest single shareholder of a small firm called Berkshire Hathaway-obviously you and your "thinking people" have never heard the name-BRK was the largest shareholder of Wells Fargo-recipient of taxpayer bailout-lots more details but it is easier for the stupid sheep to just repeat PUTIN DID IT.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Some exotic animal gave up their life for that hairpiece Donald wears :eek-new:



do you think they were hairs from unmentionable human body parts that had been straightened though

what he'd been able to grab with a feel

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> do you think they were hairs from unmentionable human body parts that had been straightened though
> 
> what he'd been able to grab with a feel
> 
> .


I think the MSM started a trend-they are coming out of the woodwork https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mue25eQLyI


----------



## humble_pie

here in quebec we're going on about fashion of course

we all thought hillary's attire last night was breathtaking. The symbolic purity of that shining white suit. Radiant.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> here in quebec we're going on about fashion of course
> 
> we all thought hillary's attire last night was breathtaking. The symbolic purity of that shining white suit. Radiant.


It looked like the fat kid from North Korea decided to wear white.


----------



## new dog

Assuming Hillary does have it in the bag then people should be demanding changes so the mainstream media can freely report in the world. Somebody put somewhere that trust or whatever in the media is under 10 percent, this is totally unacceptable in my opinion.

I am sure there are still some here that are under the illusion that we are being told the truth and that there is little bias in the media. We depend a lot on the media to tell us what is really going on and the people are not being told.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Einstein: Buffett is the largest single shareholder of a small firm called Berkshire Hathaway-obviously you and your "thinking people" have never heard the name-BRK was the largest shareholder of Wells Fargo-recipient of taxpayer bailout-lots more details but it is easier for the stupid sheep to just repeat PUTIN DID IT.


It is widely published that Wells Fargo repaid the $25B it received in 2008 bailout money. It was announced at the end of 2009.

Also, I think you're missing a key point here: Putin did it.




humble_pie said:


> here in quebec we're going on about fashion of course
> 
> we all thought hillary's attire last night was breathtaking. The symbolic purity of that shining white suit. Radiant.


I'd hit it.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> It looked like the fat kid from North Korea decided to wear white.



not fat at all. Hillary looked lovely.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> I'd hit it.



what does that mean, re hillary's white suit, in the ROC?


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Einstein: Buffett is the largest single shareholder of a small firm called Berkshire Hathaway-obviously you and your "thinking people" have never heard the name-BRK was the largest shareholder of Wells Fargo-recipient of taxpayer bailout-lots more details but it is easier for the stupid sheep to just repeat PUTIN DID IT.


Hillary looks good.

For someone who is 68, she looks amazing.

Good for her.


----------



## Argonaut

TomB19 said:


> I'd hit it.


Bill wouldn't.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> what does that mean, re hillary's white suit, in the ROC?


It was a lewd suggestion that I would not refuse sex with her, conveyed in the vernacular of a 15 year old skateboarder looking at a magazine rack after smoking a bowl of weed.

I was married to a woman who looked a whole lot like Hillary. She was gorgeous.


----------



## bass player

new dog said:


> Assuming Hillary does have it in the bag then people should be demanding changes so the mainstream media can freely report in the world. Somebody put somewhere that trust or whatever in the media is under 10 percent, this is totally unacceptable in my opinion.
> 
> I am sure there are still some here that are under the illusion that we are being told the truth and that there is little bias in the media. We depend a lot on the media to tell us what is really going on and the people are not being told.


Trust in the media is down to 6%...basically just a few outliers are left. 

The media has gone full attack mode on Trump and has almost totally ignored WikiLeaks and Hillary's scandals, and most recently, Project Veritas. People are not stupid...the media have been outed as Democrat shills and this election has made almost everyone aware of that fact.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Assuming Hillary does have it in the bag then people should be demanding changes so the mainstream media can freely report in the world. Somebody put somewhere that trust or whatever in the media is under 10 percent, this is totally unacceptable in my opinion.
> 
> I am sure there are still some here that are under the illusion that we are being told the truth and that there is little bias in the media. We depend a lot on the media to tell us what is really going on and the people are not being told.



of course we are being told the truth by the grand old media standbys. Newspapers even subsidize their own space to make room for critics, opponents, complainers & hostile commentators. Can you show me a newspaper in your precious russia that does that.

dogcom you cannot keep on slamming the media with a straight face when you yourself are getting 100% of your own ideas from the media. OK marginal media like zerohedge & the Rebel, but still they are alternative media.

.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I was married to a woman who looked a whole lot like Hillary. She was gorgeous.


Hillary can't hide her ugly soul...


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Trust in the media is down to 6%



wondering where this figure is coming from

.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> wondering where this figure is coming from.


Is your internet broken? Even highly biased Huffpost says so:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trust-in-media_us_57148543e4b06f35cb6fec58


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> It was a lewd suggestion that I would not refuse sex with her, conveyed in the vernacular of a 15 year old skateboarder looking at a magazine rack after smoking a bowl of weed.
> 
> I was married to a woman who looked a whole lot like Hillary. She was gorgeous.



lucky ladies, both of them


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Is your internet broken? Even highly biased Huffpost says so:
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trust-in-media_us_57148543e4b06f35cb6fec58


7% say they have a _great deal_ of trust in the media. 
33% have a _fair amount_ of trust in the media
35% have _not very much_ trust
24% have _no trust_ in the media 

Your 6% statement was based on the first sentence of an article but you need to follow the links to the original Gallup research to get the real data: http://www.gallup.com/poll/185927/americans-trust-media-remains-historical-low.aspx . From there download a PDF. 

Trust in the media is at an all time low with 40% saying they have a great deal or a fair amount of trust in the media. The figure was 54% in 2003 and 68% in 1972. 

I wonder if the decline has to do with the explosuion of alternative media, declining research budgets and the loss of independent newspapers.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Hillary can't hide her ugly soul...


Or, to put it in a more constructive way. Her inner beauty shines through.  

Bass, the good news is that Trump's brand name is becoming so toxic that a room at the Trump tower will soon cost less than the Super 8. :applouse:


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> here in quebec we're going on about fashion of course
> 
> we all thought hillary's attire last night was breathtaking. The symbolic purity of that shining white suit. Radiant.


I didn't notice, but you made me google it. Hillary wore a different colour to every debate - each of red, white and blue. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...idden-meaning-clinton-debate-outfit/92443470/ White was also a nod to the suffragettes, which is kinda cool. 

Melania and Ivanka wore black. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hite-pant-suit-worn-tribute-suffragettes.html.


----------



## Argonaut

Re: the media. I am always reminded of the ebb and flow of history as it relates to centralization vs decentralization. It happens over and over, whether it's with governments, businesses, military strategy, or the something like the media. Decentralization is seen as chaotic, so centralization takes place to regain control. Then centralization is found to be bureaucratic, so decentralization happens to give some breathing room and autonomy.

The media's days of centralization are coming to an end. No longer can you only get your sources of information from a conglomerate with an agenda. Your new sources of news may have an agenda, but damnit, it'll be tailored to you! I see only what I want to see online: finance, sports, and news with a right-wing slant. This customization can be done on Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, or whatever. The people decide what the news is, not Ted Turner. I like it, because I think a sort of wisdom of crowds can win out in the end.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> of course we are being told the truth by the grand old media standbys. Newspapers even subsidize their own space to make room for critics, opponents, complainers & hostile commentators. Can you show me a newspaper in your precious russia that does that.
> 
> dogcom you cannot keep on slamming the media with a straight face when you yourself are getting 100% of your own ideas from the media. OK marginal media like zerohedge & the Rebel, but still they are alternative media.
> 
> .



Yes the alternative media is on its own agenda and people really shouldn't feel compelled to look through alternative media because they feel they are not getting the truth or proper reporting. There have been many links we have shown you on here of the media cutting reports off because Hillary is being criticized or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbA5RE9eK08

RT is Russian mainstream media so why don't you think everything they say is true. Mainstream media is 90 percent owned by a few corporations. On Syria on page one you would see, the US wants to set up no fly zone in Syria or something like that. If you look on page 17 in the middle of some large story they will add that it will probably cause WW3 or something. This is how the truth would be reported when they do report it.


----------



## sags

New advertising campaign for Trump Towers.......

_Trump Towers.......where fondling guests is in our culture._

Hillary Clinton's looked terrific at the debate. Her attire was compared to Christian Bale's outfit in a movie.

View attachment 12138


----------



## olivaw

^hey, isn't that the movie where Christian Bale goes off his meds.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> Re: the media. I am always reminded of the ebb and flow of history as it relates to centralization vs decentralization. It happens over and over, whether it's with governments, businesses, military strategy, or the something like the media. Decentralization is seen as chaotic, so centralization takes place to regain control. Then centralization is found to be bureaucratic, so decentralization happens to give some breathing room and autonomy.
> 
> The media's days of centralization are coming to an end. No longer can you only get your sources of information from a conglomerate with an agenda. Your new sources of news may have an agenda, but damnit, it'll be tailored to you! I see only what I want to see online: finance, sports, and news with a right-wing slant. This customization can be done on Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, or whatever. The people decide what the news is, not Ted Turner. I like it, because I think a sort of wisdom of crowds can win out in the end.


I am not so sure. Conspiracy theories have been proliferating at an alarming rate. The internet means that a few complete crazies scattered around the world can create critical mass and multiply their ideas and recruits, as we have seen with ISIS, 9/11 truthers, etc...


----------



## sags

At this point it is like Hillary Clinton is holding the winning 649 Lotto ticket waiting to have it a verified winner.

Trump needs to win all these battleground and swing states and steal one or two Democratic strongholds from Clinton.

For the Democrats this is beyond simply winning now. They see an opportunity to win traditional Republican territory.

Michelle Obama was in Arizona. Barrack Obama was in Florida. Sanders, Warren, and Biden are out on the stump.

Where are all the high profile Republicans hiding these days ?

_Arizona is suddenly the country’s closest state. According to the RealClearPolitics polling average, *Clinton leads by just 0.2 points*, and she led Trump by a margin of 39 percent to 34 percent in an Arizona Republic poll published Wednesday. The race is slightly clearer in the critical battlegrounds: *she leads by 3.8 in Florida, 2.5 in North Carolina, 6.2 in Pennsylvania*, and* trails by 0.6 in Ohio.
*
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/michelle-obama-campaign-arizona-230121#ixzz4Ng1XJtUm 
_


----------



## olivaw

Trump's dinner speech is on CNN. A few good jokes but some awkward parts too. Some of the people behind Trump look strangely uncomfortable and there are quite a few boos.

Hillary can't stop smiling because she knows she is going to become president.

ETA: the CNN guy said there has never before been boos at the Catholic dinner


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> I am not so sure. Conspiracy theories have been proliferating at an alarming rate. The internet means that a few complete crazies scattered around the world can create critical mass and multiply their ideas and recruits, as we have seen with ISIS, 9/11 truthers, etc...


Last night at the debate Crooked Hillary was selling a pretty wild conspiracy theory-Putin is trying to rig the US election for his buddy/puppet Donald Trump-it is all Putin's master plan-and sheep like yourself swallow it whole.


----------



## sags

During the debate, the control over a nuclear weapons launch was discussed briefly by Hillary Clinton.

The President is the only person who can initiate a nuclear weapon launch, and the order must be obeyed.

There is about 4 minutes to identify a nuclear attack on the US and make the decision to launch the warheads in response.

There have been many "false" incidents in the past. Some were very, very serious including during the administration of President Carter when the US had a false alarm when they intercepted a Russian training tape. Carter was awoken at 3 a.m........hence the reference to a "3 am phone call" and told Russian missiles were incoming. He was considering a full launch immediately. The Russians informed the US it was a false alarm and Carter had to make a decision to believe the Russians or continue with the launch. Thankfully, he ordered the missile launch to stand down. Zbigniew Brzezinski was the man who received the initial information and told Carter and then received the information from the Russians and relayed that to Carter. He was the vitally important contact man in the middle.

Brzezinski didn't wake his wife as he thought if the Russian missiles were inbound it would be better for her to die in her sleep.

Brzezinski's daughter cannot believe that Americans would trust Donald Trump with that kind of power. She knows how that kind of responsibility weighed on her father and he was the designated messenger, not the one making the final decision.

Food for thought.......don't expect to be warned of incoming Russian missiles. There would be no point in doing so.

Second food for thought.............why would anyone want Donald Trump in charge of the US nuclear weapons arsenal.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> During the debate, the control over a nuclear weapons launch was discussed briefly by Hillary Clinton.
> 
> The President is the only person who can initiate a nuclear weapon launch, and the order must be obeyed.
> 
> There is about 4 minutes to identify a nuclear attack on the US and make the decision to launch the warheads in response.
> 
> There have been many "false" incidents in the past. Some were very, very serious including during the administration of President Carter when the US had a false alarm when they intercepted a Russian training tape. Carter was awoken at 3 a.m........hence the reference to a "3 am phone call" and told Russian missiles were incoming. He ordered a full launch immediately. The Russians informed the US it was a false alarm and Carter had to make a decision to believe the Russians or continue with the launch. Thankfully, he ordered the missile launch to stand down.
> 
> Imagine..........Donald Trump in a position to make such decisions. That is truly frightening.


Nothing personal-but the idea of having a person apparently in the later stages of Parkinsons Disease in that position is absurb-4 minutes? She might need 4 days to respond.


----------



## sags

Trump has problems responding to simple questions and then changes his mind six times.

Once the missiles are launched there is no way to call them back.

There is no room in that scenario for an impulsive Donald Trump.


----------



## sags

If the situation ever gets that dire and it looks like there might be a nuclear missile exchange, it might be a good time to take a leave of absence and head for the cottage or better yet...........a small town in rural Saskatchewan.

Or.......if you want to get it over with quickly book a room at Trump Towers.


----------



## new dog

Sags I put this link on the Syria poll thread, Jill Stein says Hillary is more dangerous then Trump and fears for nuclear war if she is elected. 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...d_syria_policy_could_start_a_nuclear_war.html


----------



## sags

Jill Stein is entitled to her opinion, but her contention that an unknown Trump would be "safer" that Hillary Clinton is highly questionable.

Her further contention that Trump would be safer because he would acquiesce to Russia's Putin is also highly questionable.

Hillary Clinton didn't force Putin to invade the Ukraine. She didn't force Russia to enter the civil war in Syria.

Those were Putin's decisions and there is no indication his expansionist policy is completed and he would stop there.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Jill Stein is entitled to her opinion, but her contention that an unknown Trump would be "safer" that Hillary Clinton is highly questionable.
> 
> Her further contention that Trump would be safer because he would acquiesce to Russia's Putin is also highly questionable.
> 
> Hillary Clinton didn't force Putin to invade the Ukraine. She didn't force Russia to enter the civil war in Syria.
> 
> Those were Putin's decisions and there is no indication his expansionist policy is completed and he would stop there.


Obviously basic logic is a big problem for you-Stein simply said Crooked Hillary's warmongering mentality makes her way more dangerous to everybody-you would be just as dangerous.


----------



## sags

Nuclear weapons and the concept of MAD.....mutually assured destruction, has been around for a long time.

I remember doing nuclear war drills in public school in the 1950s.....hiding under the desk.

The threat of nuclear war subsided for some time as the Cold War shrank away........but Putin has revived it.

It is up to Putin how far this goes, not Clinton.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Last night at the debate Crooked Hillary was selling a pretty wild conspiracy theory-Putin is trying to rig the US election for his buddy/puppet Donald Trump-it is all Putin's master plan-and sheep like yourself swallow it whole.


That's based on facts, e.g. Russian special services breaking into Dem computers and releasing stolen information in an attempt to compromise Clinton. Trump openly encouraged that too.


----------



## olivaw

Everybody, but the most rabid Hillary haters knows that she has the better temperament and demeanour. When it comes to the nuclear codes Hillary can be trusted. 

Trump can't refrain from inappropriate tweets during a presidential campaign. It speaks to his immaturity and lack of self control. A random 70 year old plucked from a crowd would be a better guardian of the nuclear launch codes than Donald Trump.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> Nuclear weapons and the concept of MAD.....mutually assured destruction, has been around for a long time.
> 
> I remember doing nuclear war drills in public school in the 1950s.....hiding under the desk.
> 
> The threat of nuclear war subsided for some time as the Cold War shrank away........but Putin has revived it.
> 
> It is up to Putin how far this goes, not Clinton.



So it is all Putin's fault and it doesn't matter that the US has been rolling all over the middle east. As long as Saudi Arabia in Yemen or the US is doing the damage it is all good. Next we were meant to roll through Syria and then maybe Iran and then where ever else we would like to go. Evil terrible Russia was supposed to do nothing and smile and realize it is all for the good of the people. 

Now it is up to Russia or Putin to bend his knee to Hillary the queen of peace and reason so that she can knock out Assad and put whatever crazy *** government she wants in power.


----------



## bass player

CNN caught in the act yet again. First they said that possessing WikiLeaks is illegal, but not for the media...so you better only get information from them  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JuWPS8qGPw

They also have a habit of "losing" a satellite feed whenever uncomfortable allegations are made about Hillary. Check out the announcers poor attempt at dismay at 28 seconds   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbA5RE9eK08


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> Everybody, but the most rabid Hillary haters knows that she has the better temperament and demeanour. When it comes to the nuclear codes Hillary can be trusted.
> 
> Trump can't refrain from inappropriate tweets during a presidential campaign. It speaks to his immaturity and lack self control. A random 70 year old plucked from a crowd would be a better guardian of the nuclear launch codes than Donald Trump.



Of course she can be trusted, she will only respond when Russia launches theirs over the Syria thing and not before.


----------



## olivaw

^Hillary is more hawkish than Obama but less hawkish than most Republicans in the primaries. She's hardly a warmonger. 

I'm no fan of Putin but I don't believe he is a madman. He won't launch nukes if America creates "safe zones" in Syria.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Everybody, but the most rabid Hillary haters knows that she has the better temperament and demeanour. When it comes to the nuclear codes Hillary can be trusted.
> 
> Trump can't refrain from inappropriate tweets during a presidential campaign. It speaks to his immaturity and lack of self control. A random 70 year old plucked from a crowd would be a better guardian of the nuclear launch codes than Donald Trump.


Every single agent assigned to her says the same thing-this woman is batshit crazy. I guess they are all working secretly for Putin.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> That's based on facts, e.g. Russian special services breaking into Dem computers and releasing stolen information in an attempt to compromise Clinton. Trump openly encouraged that too.


Boris and Natasha deleted/bleached 33000 of Crooked Hillary's emails-Moose and Squirrel couldn't stop them.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> That's based on facts, e.g. Russian special services breaking into Dem computers and releasing stolen information in an attempt to compromise Clinton. Trump openly encouraged that too.


At this moment the KGB is watching you through your webcam-get a shave.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> That's based on facts, e.g. Russian special services breaking into Dem computers and releasing stolen information in an attempt to compromise Clinton. Trump openly encouraged that too.


Using your logic, Billy Bush should be attacked for releasing that video of Trump's locker room talk but only Trump was attacked by the media. Yet, when unflattering information about Hillary is made public, the media won't go after her, instead they go after the hacker.

It's the usual double standard from the left....


----------



## olivaw

^they're watching you too Nelley. Please put some pants on.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> ^Hillary is more hawkish than Obama but less hawkish than most Republicans in the primaries. She's hardly a warmonger.
> 
> I'm no fan of Putin but I don't believe he is a madman. He won't launch nukes if America creates "safe zones" in Syria.


Maybe not right away, most likely it will be when the fighting gets out of control. Also you are right, most of the Republicans in the primaries would just go for it. Mike Pence would like to go for it if he was the president so Hillary is not the only one. In fact I will go one step more and say that Hillary is probably safer on the Syria thing then most of the republicans.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> During the debate, the control over a nuclear weapons launch was discussed briefly by Hillary Clinton.
> 
> The President is the only person who can initiate a nuclear weapon launch, and the order must be obeyed.
> 
> There is about 4 minutes to identify a nuclear attack on the US and make the decision to launch the warheads in response.
> 
> There have been many "false" incidents in the past. Some were very, very serious including during the administration of President Carter when the US had a false alarm when they intercepted a Russian training tape. Carter was awoken at 3 a.m........hence the reference to a "3 am phone call" and told Russian missiles were incoming. He was considering a full launch immediately. The Russians informed the US it was a false alarm and Carter had to make a decision to believe the Russians or continue with the launch. Thankfully, he ordered the missile launch to stand down. Zbigniew Brzezinski was the man who received the initial information and told Carter and then received the information from the Russians and relayed that to Carter. He was the vitally important contact man in the middle.
> 
> Brzezinski didn't wake his wife as he thought if the Russian missiles were inbound it would be better for her to die in her sleep.
> 
> Brzezinski's daughter cannot believe that Americans would trust Donald Trump with that kind of power. She knows how that kind of responsibility weighed on her father and he was the designated messenger, not the one making the final decision.
> 
> Food for thought.......don't expect to be warned of incoming Russian missiles. There would be no point in doing so.
> 
> Second food for thought.............why would anyone want Donald Trump in charge of the US nuclear weapons arsenal.


This brings up an important point. The response time to a nuclear attack is an extremely important thing to know - if you are planning to launch one. Hillary Clinton as former Secretary of State, was in a position to know this sensitive, top secret fact. It appears she let it slip out last night during the debate. This is a very serious blunder. The only way it is not is if either the response time is already known or if she is lying and that is not the real response time. But if it is the real time and was not previously known she should be in serious trouble for revealing it. 

Wonder why no MSM outlet has made an issue of this?


----------



## sags

The conspiracy theorists are already jumping on those comments by Clinton.

And yet again...........they are wrong.

Clinton's comments were in keeping with publicly known information on the time interval required to launch nuclear missiles.

That is not to say it is accurate, just consistent with what has been previously released.

I think Clinton may have mentioned it as a warning to Putin as well.

Anyone who thinks Putin will change his foreign policy because Trump says nice things about him is delusional.

The US entered Syria to prevent a humanitarian disaster that Assad was heaping on his own people. Russia entered it to keep Assad in power.

That pretty much says everything anyone needs to know about Putin.


----------



## sags

Air Force officers who were in command of launching the missiles wrote a letter stating that Donald Trump should not be given responsibility over the launching of nuclear weapons because he lacked the temperament.

As they wrote....only the President can give the order to launch. The order cannot be vetoed by anyone else. Once launched, the missiles cannot be recalled. Any misjudgement or mistake would have catastrophic consequences.

Trump is not only impulsive, petty and holds a grudge..........but he has shown bad judgement on foreign issues including nuclear weapons.

He said he didn't see a problem with Japan and South Korea obtaining nuclear weapons. 

He then said if a war broke out in Asia they could "enjoy themselves".

This............is not a guy anyone should want in control.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/former-missileers-say-keep-trump-away-from-nukes


----------



## sags

From the dinner tonight, Hillary Clinton remarked.....

"This dinner brings together a collection of sensible, committed, mainstream Republicans, or, as we now call them: Hillary supporters."..........LOL.

Donald Trump's remarks attracted boos from the audience. The first time ever the Catholic audience booed a speaker.

Trump will be tweeting.............the dinner was rigged :topsy_turvy:


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> The conspiracy theorists are already jumping on those comments by Clinton.
> 
> And yet again...........they are wrong.
> 
> Clinton's comments were in keeping with publicly known information on the time interval required to launch nuclear missiles.
> 
> That is not to say it is accurate, just consistent with what has been previously released.
> 
> I think Clinton may have mentioned it as a warning to Putin as well.
> 
> Anyone who thinks Putin will change his foreign policy because Trump says nice things about him is delusional.
> 
> The US entered Syria to prevent a humanitarian disaster that Assad was heaping on his own people. Russia entered it to keep Assad in power.
> 
> That pretty much says everything anyone needs to know about Putin.



First of all let us get it straight no one cares about the people, they only say this to sell their snake oil.

Russia entered to keep Assad in power and will go to any length to keep it this way. This means you are right and nuclear war is on the table over this rubble heap. Putin is in survival mode but is ruthless and will not back down. I think it is in his best interests to work this out if possible and Trump is the only chance for this. 

Jill Stein realizes this and made her comments. The stupid sheep will literally be led to the slaughter if they think Putin will back down on this one. Of course the mainstream media will back Clinton and only realize to late that money they got is no good in a nuclear war.


----------



## new dog

By the way Sags remember Kaepernick and his stand. I was against it and I may have been wrong because he did shine light on things. The same goes for Trump and his stand against the voting process. The process needs to be right and secure and not so open to fraud.


----------



## TomB19

I believe that both candidates are patriots and care somewhat about "common" people.

Sure, they will both burn commoners in favour of big interests but somehow, they've justified it and feel they are walking a careful line, despite the average joe taking a beating the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetimes.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> Most illegal immigrants in the US simply enter the US on a "vacation" and never return to Mexico.
> 
> Without banning all visitors from Mexico, I don't know how the US could stop that flow.
> 
> The attraction to the US is the opportunity for work, which US employers are offering to illegal aliens to have access to cheap labor.
> 
> If there was no work for underpaid illegal aliens, it would help staunch the flow of illegal immigrants, more than a wall.


It's a problem in Canada as well, at least here around Vancouver. The construction industry in particular is full of illegal Mexican workers.


----------



## new dog

I hope for our sake Tom that someone does care.

Sags just remember Clinton and her gang have somewhere to go if everything goes south, we do not.

Putin can't go to far because then we would hold the higher ground and we would have nothing to lose but to launch.

At this point however he has nothing to lose in his eyes and we will pay the price.


----------



## indexxx

sags said:


> During the debate, the control over a nuclear weapons launch was discussed briefly by Hillary Clinton.
> 
> The President is the only person who can initiate a nuclear weapon launch, and the order must be obeyed.
> 
> There is about 4 minutes to identify a nuclear attack on the US and make the decision to launch the warheads in response.
> 
> There have been many "false" incidents in the past. Some were very, very serious including during the administration of President Carter when the US had a false alarm when they intercepted a Russian training tape. Carter was awoken at 3 a.m........hence the reference to a "3 am phone call" and told Russian missiles were incoming. He was considering a full launch immediately. The Russians informed the US it was a false alarm and Carter had to make a decision to believe the Russians or continue with the launch. Thankfully, he ordered the missile launch to stand down. Zbigniew Brzezinski was the man who received the initial information and told Carter and then received the information from the Russians and relayed that to Carter. He was the vitally important contact man in the middle.
> 
> Brzezinski didn't wake his wife as he thought if the Russian missiles were inbound it would be better for her to die in her sleep.
> 
> Brzezinski's daughter cannot believe that Americans would trust Donald Trump with that kind of power. She knows how that kind of responsibility weighed on her father and he was the designated messenger, not the one making the final decision.
> 
> Food for thought.......don't expect to be warned of incoming Russian missiles. There would be no point in doing so.
> 
> Second food for thought.............why would anyone want Donald Trump in charge of the US nuclear weapons arsenal.


I've read that story about Brzezinski- it's utterly fascinating. What an incredibly courageous man; he essentially disobeyed direct his government's protocol, butting his own life at risk- and almost nobody is even aware of what he did.


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> Nothing personal-but the idea of having a person apparently in the later stages of Parkinsons Disease in that position is absurb-4 minutes? She might need 4 days to respond.


Can you give that idiotic conspiracy a rest please? It seriously makes you sound foolish, which you likely are not. She clearly does not have Parkinson's, advanced or otherwise.


----------



## new dog

I should add sags for a forum full of people reading the risk and reward it is unbelievable that some people here can't see the risk and reward in this. 

Maybe I should spell it out. 

1. Putin has nothing to lose so we lose.

2. If Putin goes beyond Syria then we have nothing to lose.


----------



## olivaw

Putin has Russia to lose in a nuclear war. He's not insane. Say what you will about him, he has been in power for a long time and has never even hinted at launching a nuclear weapon.


----------



## andrewf

Putin relies on the oligarchy supporting his rule. Hot war with the West would be very bad for the oligarchy, and thus for Putin's continued rule of Russia.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Nuclear weapons and the concept of MAD.....mutually assured destruction, has been around for a long time.
> 
> I remember doing nuclear war drills in public school in the 1950s.....hiding under the desk.
> 
> The threat of nuclear war subsided for some time as the Cold War shrank away........but Putin has revived it.
> 
> It is up to Putin how far this goes, not Clinton.



Obama must not be absolved of his responsibility for his part in creating the current perilous situation.
Putin became more aggressive because he realized he could get away with it. He realized that Obama would not oppose his actions and threats. He was not afraid of Obama because Obama clearly signaled that he would not use the military power of the US.

He saw that Obama would not honour his red line commitment to bomb Syria for using chemical weapons. Instead he asked Russia to take 
the them from Assad. He knew Obama would not attack Syria because he did not want to antagonize Iran, with whom he wanted to conclude a nuclear treaty. The inaction of Obama has encouraged the aggressiveness of Putin.

You are now saying that Clinton has no control or ability to influence Putin. This is incorrect. What she does will be crucial in determining
the course of future events in light of the real possibility of nuclear war. She should take actions to deter Russian aggression.There are many things she can do. She should not be passive as Obama was.


Fecklessness in the White House and recklessness in the Kremlin and the world teeters on the brink.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> The US entered Syria to prevent a humanitarian disaster that Assad was heaping on his own people. Russia entered it to keep Assad in power.


This is factually incorrect. The US is not attacking Assad's forces in Syria,except for one mistake. Their mission is to bomb
ISIS targets in support of the Kurds. They are also aiding rebel groups.

Obama's inaction due to his reluctance to assume the role of colonial oppressor was largely responsible for creating the humanitarian disaster in the first place.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> Can you give that idiotic conspiracy a rest please? It seriously makes you sound foolish, which you likely are not. She clearly does not have Parkinson's, advanced or otherwise.


Your comment identifies your sheep nature-if you are going to dispute the claim, provide evidence-typing the scary word "conspiracy" isn't logical analysis Tesla.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Putin has Russia to lose in a nuclear war. He's not insane. Say what you will about him, he has been in power for a long time and has never even hinted at launching a nuclear weapon.


Putin has repeatedly issued nuclear threats.Intimidation is part of his repertoire of manipulation. He has talked about first use in a conventional war.



> “Thank God, I think no one is thinking of unleashing a large-scale conflict with Russia. I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers,” Putin told the group of school-aged children on Friday.


regarding Crimea



> Putin's nuclear threat: Russian leader nearly started World War Three over the Crimea war
> 
> VLADIMIR Putin was prepared to use nuclear weapons at the moment he seized Crimea a year ago, he admitted last night.
> 
> .......
> 
> The President said: "We were ready to do it." Major cities in Britain - along with the US - are seen as a key targets of the Kremlin's nuclear arsenal.
> 
> .......
> 
> But he claimed the West could have intervened militarily when he seized Crimea, hence his readiness to put his massive nuclear arsenal on alert. It was reported last night that the real reason behind Putin's unusual absence was that he had suffered a bout of flu.


----------



## mordko

Here is why Hillary's advanced stages of Parkinson's = another moronic conspiracy:

1. Advanced stages of Parkinson's are impossible to hide. Anyone who has ever seen afflicted people can vouch for that. 

2. Not a single specialist (and I don't mean a random pharmacist or a politician) expressed an opinion that Hillary has Parkinson's. 

The anti-science morons should give their heads a shake.


----------



## mordko

In general "the west" used to be a lot better than the Middle East/Africa/Russia in discounting conspiracy theories. In certain parts of the world close to 100% are "believers" in the craziest theories. It really seems that "the west" is degrading in this respect and Trump's campaign is a symptom of that.


----------



## TomB19

It's all a cover up, man.

Hey. Did you hear that?


----------



## bass player

Here are the rules the left follow. Total submission to the mantra is a requirement:

1. Every bad thing said about Hillary is either a lie or a conspiracy.
2. See rule #1.


----------



## TomB19

I watched an interview yesterday in which Ari Fleischer said he thinks Republicans will have no problem holding the Senate.

I suspect it will be close but it's a weird election so it could be anybody's game. Republicans should have no problem holding the house, though.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Here is why Hillary's advanced stages of Parkinson's = another moronic conspiracy:
> 
> 1. Advanced stages of Parkinson's are impossible to hide. Anyone who has ever seen afflicted people can vouch for that.
> 
> 2. Not a single specialist (and I don't mean a random pharmacist or a politician) expressed an opinion that Hillary has Parkinson's.
> 
> The anti-science morons should give their heads a shake.


You are as ignorant about this subject as everything else-you seem very proud of your desire never to learn anything at all.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> In general "the west" used to be a lot better than the Middle East/Africa/Russia in discounting conspiracy theories. In certain parts of the world close to 100% are "believers" in the craziest theories. It really seems that "the west" is degrading in this respect and Trump's campaign is a symptom of that.


You are the sheep believer obviously-there isn't much I believe.


----------



## TomB19

BTW, I think way too much is made of what Trump said regarding accepting the results of the election. I doubt there will be a problem.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> You are the sheep believer obviously-there isn't much I believe.


Whenever you say something ignorant, you accuse others of ignorance. When you BS, you accuse others of BS.

It makes it easy to see exactly what game you're playing by simply noting what you accuse others of. Nice tell.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> You are the sheep believer obviously-there isn't much I believe.


I believe that you believe you are justified in writing anything to support your party.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I believe that you believe you are justified in writing anything to support your party.


Here is the thing-you are very closed minded-when I say that you think I am just insulting you-I am just making an observation-you assume I support the Republican party-based on what? Trump? Hillary? Bush Junior? Obozo?


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> In general "the west" used to be a lot better than the Middle East/Africa/Russia in discounting conspiracy theories. In certain parts of the world close to 100% are "believers" in the craziest theories. It really seems that "the west" is degrading in this respect and Trump's campaign is a symptom of that.


The biggest conspiracy theory out there is the one where the left thinks 100% of everything bad said about Hillary is a conspiracy theory. Those who support her are willing to lie to themselves rather than face the truth...


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> The biggest conspiracy theory out there is the one where the left thinks 100% of everything bad said about Hillary is a conspiracy theory. Those who support her are willing to lie to themselves rather than face the truth...


Here is the deal-these are children who desperately need to believe in the integrity and professionalism of the MSM-the authority figure on these matters. Logic has nothing to do with it-we are dealing with subconscious needs and impulses-"conspiracy theory" to these children means ANYTHING not rubber stamped by the MSM.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Here is the thing-you are very closed minded-when I say that you think I am just insulting you-I am just making an observation-you assume I support the Republican party-based on what? Trump? Hillary? Bush Junior? Obozo?


No need to be defensive. Feel free to assess me, as you wish. 

You have uploaded every piece of crazy the Republican party has fed it's base. Using the assumption the only people who could possibly believe some of that ridiculous mantra are people who _want_ to believe it, I have concluded you to be a strong member of the Republican base. I shall start calling you Ph1.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> Here are the rules the left follow. Total submission to the mantra is a requirement:
> 
> 1. Every bad thing said about Hillary is either a lie or a conspiracy.
> 2. See rule #1.


No. In fact there aren't that many good things that could be said about Hillary:

- As a former Secretary of State she is responsible for the disastrous foreign policy of this administration. Hubby allowed Al Qaeda to grow and strengthen, Hillary did the same favour for ISIS. Her Russian policy was to "reset" relationship after the Georgian war. That didn't go all that well, so we know her foresight is sorely lacking. 

- She lied about the emails. That's a fact. Interaction with the Attorney General was -as a minimum - unethical.

- Her contest vs Bernie was rigged. There are plenty of examples, e.g. questions were provided to her prior to Town Hall meetings. 

If you want to attack Hillary, there is absolutely no need to make up conspiracies. 

With all of the above, she is still miles better than Trump who is the guy making up crazy conspiracies.


----------



## sags

Some people don't seem to comprehend there are only two choices, and Hillary Clinton is a better choice than Trump.

Since Trump has revealed himself to be totally unfit for the job, Americans are making the only choice they have.

Both Clinton and Trump have terrible favorable ratings, but it is what it is. One of them is going to be President.

Clinton is supported by many high level people involved in US government. Trump is supported by almost nobody.

Blame the two parties for presenting these nominees....but don't blame the voters for making the only logical choice.

People will rest easier once Trump is removed from the landscape. Clinton will work with Republicans on foreign policy.


----------



## new dog

That was a nice list mordko and a true one.

The only thing is if you bring up these points here they say she wasn't charged and she is golden so it never happened. She never lied she didn't do anything criminal and just acted like anybody else. The Bernie thing though is a conspiracy theory even if it is true. 

So rule number two should be, "Nothing to see here".

3. It is Putin or Russia's fault 

4. Right wing source doesn't count.


----------



## mordko

new dog said:


> That was a nice list mordko and a true one.
> 
> The only thing is if you bring up these points here they say she wasn't charged and she is golden so it never happened. She never lied she didn't do anything criminal and just acted like anybody else. The Bernie thing though is a conspiracy theory even if it is true.
> 
> So rule number two should be, "Nothing to see here".
> 
> 3. It is Putin or Russia's fault
> 
> 4. Right wing source doesn't count.


The Bernie thing? The source is Wikileaks, emails from DNC staffers providing questions to Hillary in advance of the Town Hall meetings. 

Strictly factual, not a conspiracy. It's possible the emails were fabricated but based on Wikileaks previous form, they aren't. Are they selectively providing dirt on one candidate? Sure. Are they working for FSB? Almost certainly. Is the information wrong? Doubt it.


----------



## new dog

It falls under rule number 3 then.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> No. In fact there aren't that many good things that could be said about Hillary:
> 
> - As a former Secretary of State she is responsible for the disastrous foreign policy of this administration. Hubby allowed Al Qaeda to grow and strengthen, Hillary did the same favour for ISIS. Her Russian policy was to "reset" relationship after the Georgian war. That didn't go all that well, so we know her foresight is sorely lacking.
> 
> - She lied about the emails. That's a fact. Interaction with the Attorney General was -as a minimum - unethical.
> 
> - Her contest vs Bernie was rigged. There are plenty of examples, e.g. questions were provided to her prior to Town Hall meetings.
> 
> If you want to attack Hillary, there is absolutely no need to make up conspiracies.
> 
> With all of the above, she is still miles better than Trump who is the guy making up crazy conspiracies.


FACT-she destroyed 33000 emails and went to the trouble of "bleaching" so no dirt could be uncovered on her. Another MSM conspiracy theory.


----------



## TomB19

Whoa, Nelley.

When a server is decommissioned, it is generally a standard procedure to wipe the data. Most industries do this.


----------



## mordko

^ that's illegal though when relates to the destruction of correspondence issued by senior government officials.

It's called "Federal Records Act".


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Whoa, Nelley.
> 
> When a server is decommissioned, it is generally a standard procedure to wipe the data. Most industries do this.


BLAH BLAH BLAH-about as logical as what you just typed.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Whoa, Nelley.
> 
> When a server is decommissioned, it is generally a standard procedure to wipe the data. Most industries do this.


Your attempt at spinning Hillary's illegal actions is fooling no one. 

When an electronic device is no longer required, there are certain procedures that must be followed, and none of those procedures provide a provision for Hillary to wipe a server or device under her own initiative. She was required by law to return the device to the proper IT people.

Destroying government property, and this includes emails, is a criminal offense. The fact that you refuse to accept this simple and well known fact is either an indication of your lack of comprehension skills, or you are simply lying to further your agenda.


----------



## olivaw

^Luckily they were Hillary property and not government property.


----------



## mrPPincer

^ It wasn't gov't property; it was a private server, and wiping HDs is a standard security procedure, not illegal at all, when obstensibly the data is private information, & not critical high-level gov't data.

She admitted to making a mistake using a private server, but that was not a big enough deal to be charged for, nor was wiping the HDs.


----------



## olivaw

Re Wikileaks. 

Not every email has been doctored but some of the them have been doctored. 

The Clinton campaign could go through them all and publicly verify or deny every one of those thousands of emails released. But they are kinda busy getting her elected right now. 

The Trump campaign is not busy getting anybody elected. At this point they're just making excuses for whatever dumb thing he said lately. Pedesta's emails are a welcome break for these people, they get to see how a real campaign is run.


----------



## sags

Emails, emails, emails...........has been flogged so long by the Republicans that nobody cares anymore.

Americans have decided they would rather have a crooked Hillary than a crazy Donald as President.

Many may lament the choices, but they are the candidates they nominated.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> ^Luckily they were Hillary property and not government property.


The FBI stated that some of the emails were secret government emails, therefore, they were government property and it was illegal to delete them. Hillary does not "own" government property.


----------



## Nelley

You Crooked Hillary zombies are like sick cult members-you seem to have no boundaries at all when it comes to this criminal-legal, moral, ethical-none of it matters.


----------



## sags

"None of the above" won't be on the ballot, so you are right.........none of it matters.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> ^ It wasn't gov't property; it was a private server, and wiping HDs is a standard security procedure, not illegal at all, when obstensibly the data is private information, & not critical high-level gov't data.
> 
> She admitted to making a mistake using a private server, but that was not a big enough deal to be charged for, nor was wiping the HDs.


It wasn't a mistake...it was a deliberate attempt to hide her illegal actions. The fact that you continue to suggest otherwise shows that you are either a gullible fool or a liar.


----------



## sags

You can't blame the Democrats for the Republican's choice for their candidate.

After all, the Republicans had lots to choose from.........16 I believe was the number of candidates.

Tell me............wouldn't any of them been a better candidate than Trump ?


----------



## sags

Game 7 of the World Series, and the Republicans decide the starting pitcher will be their equipment manager.

This historic loss, one for the history books, is on them.

They created the atmosphere to get Trump nominated.......and they did a right fine job of it too.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Game 7 of the World Series, and the Republicans decide the starting pitcher will be their equipment manager.


And the Democrats are the 1919 Black Sox...


----------



## sags

Every time Trump's fitness for the office of President is questioned........his answer is "I built a great company."

That is like applying for the job of CEO of TD Bank and saying you had a successful lawn mowing company.


----------



## sags

Mr. Trump..........what is your position on Syria ?

Well, Syria is near Europe and I have some nice golf courses in Europe. Great golf courses and wonderful people live there, so it is all great and I will make America great again.

Mr. Trump...........what is your plan to address inner city violence ?

Well, take Chicago. There is a lot of violence in Chicago and it is terrible. I have some property in Chicago......very nice properties, great properties actually and I am very proud of what we have done there in Chicago. And there is trouble in many cities in America, and I have great properties in many of those cities and I will make America great again also.

Seriously............how far did Republicans think Trump was going to get with that kind of nonsense ?

Even before he became America's most famous pervert...........he was destined to lose.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> It wasn't a mistake...it was a deliberate attempt to hide her illegal actions. The fact that you continue to suggest otherwise shows that you are either a gullible fool or a liar.


The fact that she already had a good secure server at her disposal and decided to use it seems perfectly reasonable and does not seem like a big deal to me.

In hindsight, she realized it wasn't in full compliance to every single minutia of the rule book (which I imagine would probably fill a double garage if written out in text).
She admitted her mistake, and we're moving on.

To make it into another giant conspiracy is just absurd; it seems that since the 'Hillary is on her deathbed' one, along with all the other equally absurd ones that have already been fully debunked, are a complete fail, this sad e-mail 'scandal' is all you have left.

Oh, wait, you now have "the election is fixed" to fall back on.

Are you gonna go there next? :highly_amused:


----------



## sags

Trump's prep coach on foreign affairs ?


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> The fact that she already had a good secure server at her disposal and decided to use it seems perfectly reasonable and does not seem like a big deal to me.


If it doesn't seem like a big deal to you, that's because you don't understand national security and secure IT procedures. Perhaps you should educate yourself instead of blindly defending criminal actions??


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> If it doesn't seem like a big deal to you, that's because you don't understand national security and secure IT procedures. Perhaps you should educate yourself instead of blindly defending criminal actions??


If there was a criminal action in this or anything, (as you and your four or so Trump supporting climate change denying flat earth society CMF compatriots repeatedly say at every opportunity), why have all the accusations and multiple investigations and hearings etc etc etc come up with absolutely zero evidence that could be credibly be put in front of an actual court of law?

If your answer is that the entire US legal justice system is compromised, guess what?
That's just one more of the multitude of conspiracy theories that you Trumpites have built your position upon.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> If there was a criminal action, (as you and your four or so Trump supporting climate change denying flat earth society CMF compatriots repeatedly say at every opportunity), why have all the accusations and multiple investigations and hearings etc etc etc come up with absolutely zero evidence that could be credibly be put in front of an actual court of law?
> 
> If your answer is that the entire US legal justice system is compromised, guess what?
> That's just one more of the multitude of conspiracy theories that you Trumpites have built your position upon.


The head of the FBI stood in front of cameras and very clearly stated that Hillary had secret government emails on a private server. That is illegal, and several people have been jailed for doing exactly that. The fact that he chose not to lay charges doesn't make her actions less illegal...in fact, what it does is point to deliberate collusion to circumvent the law.

Only a fool would choose to reach a different conclusion.


----------



## mrPPincer

This has been made clear to you already repeatedly..

The head in the FBI, in fact nobody in the FBI, can convict anyone.

If in fact he had the evidence to proceed with a charge that wouldn't have been a frivolous waste of taxpayer's dollars he would have done so.
___

To speak out of turn like that to the media seems like an amateur error imho.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> This has been made clear to you already repeatedly..
> 
> The head in the FBI, in fact nobody in the FBI, can convict anyone.
> 
> If in fact he had the evidence to proceed with a charge that wouldn't have been a frivolous waste of taxpayer's dollars he would have done so.


He had the authority to recommend charges be laid, that's what I meant. He chose not to recommend that even though there was overwhelming evidence.



mrPPincer said:


> To speak out of turn like that to the media was an amateur error imho.


His press conference wasn't an amateur error...it was a deliberate action from the head of the FBI to ensure that Hillary wouldn't be charged.

Seriously, are you that mentally deficient that you can't recognize something so obvious? Pull your head out of your *** and think for yourself instead of parroting the Democrat party line....you can't dismiss her actions by blaming it on a right wing conspiracy every time you are confronted with inconvenient facts.


----------



## mrPPincer

lol! If I'm repeating the dem. party line, it's a total coincidence, as I don't have tv, and am not following it much.

I'm just looking at actual facts that are out there and are undeniable


----------



## mrPPincer

I haven't watched the press conference with the head of the FBI yet, but my guess is that the theorists have read it wrong, just the same as how and what all their other theories that have fallen flat on their faces have been based on.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> I haven't watched the press conference with the head of the FBI yet, but my guess is that the theorists have read it wrong, just the same as how and what all their other theories that have fallen flat on their faces have been based on.


Yeah...why deal with facts when you can just guess... :stupid:


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> ... but my guess is that the theorists have read it wrong...


... or, as they would put it, you have been brainwashed by the main stream media.

I'm nonplused by the ability of a significant group of people to add 2 + 2 and get an ostrich and a hot dog with extra relish.


----------



## wraphter

After the Great Recession hardly any individuals at the big banks went to jail.Eric Holder even admitted that the lack of prosecution was for political reasons .They did not want to undermine confidence in the financial system and impede the recovery. The Justice Department
official who was so reluctant to bring fraud charges against individuals was Lanny Breuer.



> The chief criticisms against Breuer had focused on Wall Street prosecutions -- or lack thereof -- and the ATF's Operation Fast and Furious.
> In regards to white collar crime, Breuer faced extensive criticism for the Justice Department's failure to bring major prosecutions against the nation's largest financial institutions responsible for financial crisis in 2008 and 2009. But Breuer insisted that the banks and their employees needed to be protected against an implosion that could cause greater problems.
> In several cases, he relied on deferred prosecutions that allowed the financial leaders to avoid going to jail in exchange for exhibiting good corporate behavior.


There was a revolving door policy between the financial regulators and the bankers. Individuals would easily go from one side of the fence to the other. The regulators were reluctant to be too tough on the banks because in a few years they might seek a job with them. Financial regulation was corrupted.

These bankers were said to be 'too big to jail'. For political reasons individuals were not prosecuted. It seems Hillary was also 'too big to jail'
as well. During the FBI investigation Obama made some comments that she did not do these acts deliberately and ex-president
Bill Clinton interfered with the process by talking to AG Loretta Lynch in her airplane.

Meanwhile true to form ,she has started out on her merry way oblivious of national security by revealing that it takes four minutes from giving the order to launch the missiles until the launch. Thank you Hillary!


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> ... or, as they would put it, you have been brainwashed by the main stream media.
> 
> I'm nonplused by the ability of a significant group of people to add 2 + 2 and get an ostrich and a hot dog with extra relish.


FBI director James Comey's actual words:

"From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification.

It is also likely that there are other work-related e-mails that they did not produce to State and that we did not find elsewhere, and that are now gone *because they deleted all e-mails they did not return to State, and the lawyers cleaned their devices in such a way as to preclude complete forensic recovery*.

For example, seven e-mail chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program level when they were sent and received. These chains involved Secretary Clinton both sending e-mails about those matters and receiving e-mails from others about the same matters. There is evidence to support a conclusion that any reasonable person in Secretary Clinton’s position, or in the position of those government employees with whom she was corresponding about these matters, should have known that an unclassified system was no place for that conversation.In addition to this highly sensitive information, we also found information that was properly classified as Secret by the U.S. Intelligence Community at the time it was discussed on e-mail (that is, excluding the later “up-classified” e-mails).

None of these e-mails should have been on any kind of unclassified system, but their presence is especially concerning because all of these e-mails were housed on unclassified personal servers not even supported by full-time security staff, like those found at Departments and Agencies of the U.S. Government—or even with a commercial service like Gmail.

With respect to potential computer intrusion by hostile actors, we did not find direct evidence that Secretary Clinton’s personal e-mail domain, in its various configurations since 2009, was successfully hacked. But, given the nature of the system and of the actors potentially involved, we assess that we would be unlikely to see such direct evidence. We do assess that hostile actors gained access to the private commercial e-mail accounts of people with whom Secretary Clinton was in regular contact from her personal account. We also assess that Secretary Clinton’s use of a personal e-mail domain was both known by a large number of people and readily apparent. She also used her personal e-mail extensively while outside the United States, including sending and receiving work-related e-mails in the territory of sophisticated adversaries. Given that combination of factors, we assess it is possible that hostile actors gained access to Secretary Clinton’s personal e-mail account."

Full text:

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system


----------



## olivaw

*Yawn*. Nobody is paying attention to this old email story. It has been discussed to death by real lawyers. The irregularity is that Republican FBI director Comey turned it into a political sideshow by going public. 

There's new news to talk about:

- Trump drove the audience to boo him at a Catholic charity event. Do you know how hard it is to get booed at a Catholic charity event? 
- Many Trump campaign staffers are going into hiding
- Facebook employees are pushing to have many of Trump's posts flagged and removed as hate speech
- Richard Branson has gone public about Trump's vindictiveness
- Trump's orange skin has been revealed to be caused by a bad spray tan
- Trump's lawyers want his campaign statements barred from the Trump university trial. 
- It has been revealed that the Trump campaign spends more on legal fees than any other campaign. 
- Early voting numbers are good for Hillary, bad for Trump


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> *Yawn*. Nobody is paying attention to this old email story. It has been discussed to death by real lawyers. The irregularity is that Republican FBI director Comey turned it into a political sideshow by going public.


You really don't get it, do you? The law is very specific and so is the penalty:

"The necessary measure of protection for government documents and records is provided by 18 U.S.C. §*2071. Section 2071(a) contains a broad prohibition against destruction of government records or attempts to destroy such records. This section provides that whoever: willfully and unlawfully; conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates or destroys; or attempts to conceal, remove, mutilate, obliterate or destroy; or carries away with intent to conceal, remove, mutilate, obliterate or destroy; any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document or other thing deposited in any public office may be punished by imprisonment for three years, a $2,000 fine, or both.

Subsection (b) of 18 U.S.C. §*2071 contains a similar prohibition specifically directed at custodians of public records. *Any custodian of a public record who "willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys (any record) shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States." *

Now olivaw...if you missed it, here is the relevant portion again. Please read slowly...maybe it will sink it:

*Any custodian of a public record who "willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys (any record) shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States." *

Hillary willfully deleted/destroyed government emails and is not eligible to run for office.


----------



## TomB19

Perhaps the US government is not aware of this law? You should mention it to them.


----------



## mrPPincer

Good thing they were private e-mails and not government documents (that were deleted) then.

The ones of significance were no doubt sent to the gov't archives and are now gov't documents.. I'm not a lawyer, but.. seems a lot of ado about diddley Bass.


----------



## mrPPincer

TomB19 said:


> ... or, as they would put it, you have been brainwashed by the main stream media.
> 
> *I'm nonplused by the ability of a significant group of people to add 2 + 2 and get an ostrich and a hot dog with extra relish*.


This has to be the most awesome quote of the day, if not the year 

TomB19, seriously, you are the Mark Twain of CMF


----------



## wraphter

mrPPincer said:


> Good thing they were private e-mails and not government documents (that were deleted) then.


Doesn't it seem a bit strange that it was Clinton's lawyers who determined what was private and what was government ? 
They apparently just read the headers of the threads. And then they used bleachbit to make them irretrievable.
How does anyone know that what was called private didn't contain classified govt info?
As Comey said:
"It is also likely that there are other work-related e-mails that they did not produce to State and that we did not find elsewhere, and that are now gone because they deleted all e-mails they did not return to State, and the lawyers cleaned their devices in such a way as to preclude complete forensic recovery."

Why the need to destroy the private emails? 
Why not preserve them for the historians?




Comey said:


> For example, seven e-mail chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program level when they were sent and received. These chains involved Secretary Clinton both sending e-mails about those matters and receiving e-mails from others about the same matters. There is evidence to support a conclusion that any reasonable person in Secretary Clinton’s position, or in the position of those government employees with whom she was corresponding about these matters, should have known that an unclassified system was no place for that conversation.


Why couldn't charges have been filed for the seven chains?


----------



## sags

_Hillary willfully deleted/destroyed government emails and is not eligible to run for office_

That is your opinion. The FBI and Justice Department concluded there was no likelihood of a conviction without proof of criminal intent.

Thinking someone might have done something, could have done something, probably did something, doesn't reach the threshold needed to successfully prosecute a criminal case. Therefore filing charges would be a waste of taxpayer dollars and the courts time.

Even if the FBI recommended charges and the Justice Department filed criminal charges, the pretrial hearings, trial, appeals would have gone on for a decade or more......probably well after Clinton had served 4 or 8 years as the President.

If a prosecutor knowingly files criminal charges without sufficient grounds, they open themselves up to a malicious prosecution lawsuit.

This would be as high profile a case as possible and no prosecutor is going to put their career on the line for such a weak case.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Doesn't it seem a bit strange that it was Clinton's lawyers who determined what was private and what was government ?


It is not the least bit strange. In Canada, lawyers work with clients to determine if emails are relevant and not privileged. I suspect that it is the same in the US. Otherwise individuals and companies would be forced to produce their entire data system to opposing counsel or investigators in the most trivial suits or investigation. 

The law is the law, even when it fails to suit your candidate's political rhetoric.


----------



## wraphter

Comey points out that not all work -related emails were produced because her lawyers destroyed some emails.



bass player quoting comey said:


> "It is also likely that there are other work-related e-mails that they did not produce to State and that we did not find elsewhere, and that are now gone *because they deleted all e-mails they did not return to State, and the lawyers cleaned their devices in such a way as to preclude complete forensic recovery.*"


Some of those deleted emails could have contained work-related information which was classified.

Her lawyers deleted the emails not her. They were insulating her from questioning.
Why was it necessary to destroy them?
Doesn't she want to write a biography or archive them for history?

.
By destroying them she is acting in a guilty manner.

Hillary said she combined the private and work-related because she wanted to have one cell phone.
This was not true. She had multiple cell phones


----------



## wraphter

Hillary told everyone that she combined her private and work emails so she could use just one cell phone.
It turns out she had 13 cell phones



> FBI identifies 13 mobile devices Clinton potentially used to send emails
> 
> Hillary Clinton may have sent emails from her personal email address using 13 different devices, according to an FBI report released Friday.
> 
> The report indicates the FBI investigation found 13 total mobile devices associated with her two known phone numbers that were potentially used to send emails via clintonemail.com.
> 
> The report does not say that she used more than one device at a time during her years at State.
> 
> Clinton, now the Democratic presidential nominee, said in March of 2015 that she never carried more than one device, using her mobile for both work and personal emails.
> 
> "I thought it would be easier to carry just one device for my work and for my personal emails, instead of two."
> 
> "Looking back, it would have been better if I'd simply used a second account and carried a second phone."
> 
> While Comey called the former secretary of State “extremely careless” for using the server, he said “no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case.”


Why is she saying she needs two devices for two accounts?
She could have put a gmail account and .gov account on on Blackberry.

I also read that only Obama had a secure Blackberry.




bass player quoting Comey said:


> She also used her personal e-mail extensively while outside the United States, including sending and receiving work-related e-mails in the territory of sophisticated adversaries. Given that combination of factors, we assess it is possible that hostile actors gained access to Secretary Clinton’s personal e-mail account."


She is a big security risk.


----------



## olivaw

If Comey believed that her lawyer broke the law then he should have asked the prosecution to prosecute the lawyer.. He didn't and he didn't.

No doubt, Republicans wanted a forensic investigation, a home search, a drug test and a cavity search but they didn't get them. Instead they got themselves a carnival barker and he is barking himself to defeat.


----------



## olivaw

While Trumpists stammer about email servers and rigged elections, they are in danger of losing reliably red Utah. Trump's hateful rhetoric hasn't just alienated African Americans, Hispanics and Muslims. He has pissed off Mormons too.


----------



## sags

The accusations against Clinton are full of words like "potentially, could have, might have, possibly".....great fodder for conspiracy theories but not so good for prosecutors to take to court. 

Judge.........she possibly might probably have potentially done something illegal, but we don't know for sure. We would like to prosecute her "just in case" she is guilty.


----------



## Nelley

Whatever-if Crooked Hillary wins she is fine-however, if Trump wins this Sick Demented Criminal Puppet is going to prison.


----------



## new dog

Remember Kaepernick taking a stand, I was against that but then realized that there sometimes is a time to open up a conversation. I believe Trump standing up against rigged voting is such a stand and is opening up conversation on it.

On the e-mails there is such a thing as to big to prosecute. Much like the 2008 crisis and no one going to jail and then coming up with to big to fail.

Don't mistaken to big to prosecute with innocence. Some people just have rights or power that the rest of us don't have. 

So what you should be saying is Hillary is important and others are not so she gets certain perks. It is not intelligent to say she has not been charged so she must be innocent.


----------



## olivaw

I don't know the truth but I do know that Hillary's opponents have slung so much mud at her that it becomes difficult to believe any thing they say. Sometimes you just have to go with innocent until proven guilty. 

Trump has a history of blaming his losses on a rigged system. His comments about the American election system are not credible.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> I don't know the truth but I do know that Hillary's opponents have slung so much mud at her that it becomes difficult to believe any thing they say.


----------



## wraphter

Poll: Majority disagree with not charging Hillary Clinton



> A majority of Americans say they disagree with the FBI's decision not to recommend criminal charges against Hillary Clinton for her use of a private email server while she was secretary of state, according to a new poll.
> 
> 
> [A poll] released Monday, found that 56% of American adults disapprove of the FBI's decision, while 35% said they approved. But a majority -- 58% -- also said the issue would not affect their vote in the 2016 presidential election.



One law for elite and another for the commoners.

She lied to the American people.
She said she only used one mobile device. We find out she used 13.

She said she never sent or received classified material. Then she said she never sent or received material marked classified.We find out whether it was marked classified or not is not important.
Comey said she sent and received classified material.

Criminal intent is not the only standard. There is also the standard of 'gross negligence'. Comey said she was very careless.

The justice system appears rigged.


----------



## sags

What I haven't heard from any news reports is how the Secretary of State receives or sends information when not in the offices of the State Department using their secure servers.

Clinton traveled to a lot of countries. She didn't live at the office. Surely, she was sending and receiving information all the time. 

The Secretary of State or President for that matter, can't be "out of the loop" when they are traveling.

It seems to be presented by some that the only place Clinton should have received or sent classified information would be while she is hunkered down in a security hardened room in the sub-basement of the State Department.

A highly improbable scenario I would think.


----------



## sags

Didn't Germany's Angela Merkel and others have their Blackberry devices hacked at some world conference ?

If classified emails were sent to secured State Department servers, and then accessed from outside of the State Department on devices, they would be vulnerable to interception and hacking.

Not sure how all that would work, but these days there doesn't seem to be a way to fully secure anything.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump is receiving classified security briefings as a Presidential nominee. 

Are all of his computers and communications devices fully secured ?


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Poll: Majority disagree with not charging Hillary Clinton
> 
> Criminal intent is not the only standard. There is also the standard of 'gross negligence'. Comey said she was very careless.



that was way back beginning of last july. Post debate american opinion has moved on 180 degrees. Post debate american voters are going to vote for hillary clinton. For the overriding reason that the other candidate has demonstrated by now that he is unhinged & unfit.

re the issues of possible felony or possible misdemeanour, the FBI said no. The DOJ said no. What is the point of pretending that yourself & nutbar nelley & beau bass are superior to US law? 

time to move on. Time to get over it. 

.


----------



## mordko

If she wasn't charged, it does not mean that she did not break the law. It just means the probability of proving guilt isn't sufficiently high. The law in this case requires to prove that she intentionally concealed records and Clinton claimed that she did it by being stupid. Very similar defence to Bills claim that he wasn't aware that oral sex was sex. He also got away with it, but any reasonable person knows they are both liars.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> that was way back beginning of last july. Post debate american opinion has moved on 180 degrees. Post debate american voters are going to vote for hillary clinton. For the overriding reason that the other candidate has demonstrated by now that he is unhinged & unfit.
> 
> re the issues of possible felony or possible misdemeanour, the FBI said no. The DOJ said no. What is the point of pretending that yourself & nutbar nelley & beau bass are superior to US law?
> 
> time to move on. Time to get over it.
> 
> .


Saying that American voters will do this or that just makes you look like more of a moron-you don't have the faintest clue what voters will or won't do-nobody even knows how reliable the entire process is at this point.


----------



## mordko

Funny how dead always vote Democrat. https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...0bffee-8670-11e6-ac72-a29979381495_story.html


----------



## olivaw

This is new. Trump laid out some policy proposals at a rally. 


Constitutional amendment to impose term limits on members of Congress.
Hiring freeze on all federal employees (except military, public safety and health).
For every new regulation, two regulations must be eliminated.
Five-year ban on White House and congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service.
Lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government.
Complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.
Quash deals that allow media ownership concentration.

His talk of "rigged" elections is evolving. He said less about vote fraud and more about lobbyists. 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-gettysburg-rally-1.3817274


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> This is new. Trump laid out some policy proposals at a rally.
> 
> 
> Constitutional amendment to impose term limits on members of Congress.
> Hiring freeze on all federal employees (except military, public safety and health).
> For every new regulation, two regulations must be eliminated.
> Five-year ban on White House and congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service.
> Lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government.
> Complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.
> Quash deals that allow media ownership concentration.
> 
> His talk of "rigged" elections evolving. He said less about vote fraud and more about lobbyists.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-gettysburg-rally-1.3817274


A good summary of why Donald Trump is so hated and feared.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> A good summary of why Donald Trump is so hated and feared.


He has been feared for quite some time and he only just came up with the above. He is feared because he is nuts, a liar, a racist, a mysoginist and generally dumb.


----------



## olivaw

In the same speech, *Trump vowed to sue all of his accusers*. Such a nasty man.


----------



## agent99

olivaw said:


> This is new. Trump laid out some policy proposals at a rally.
> 
> 
> Constitutional amendment to impose term limits on members of Congress.
> Hiring freeze on all federal employees (except military, public safety and health).
> For every new regulation, two regulations must be eliminated.
> Five-year ban on White House and congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service.
> Lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government.
> Complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.
> Quash deals that allow media ownership concentration.


I suspect the GOP has fed him with those proposals. They don't seem unreasonable to me. And I think that Trump would be about the worst thing that could happen to America (and us)


----------



## olivaw

The Economist has a pretty good article about: *Hating Hillary*. 





> “Like horse-racing, Hillary-hating has become one of those national pastimes which unite the elite and lumpen,” read a profile of the by-then beleaguered First Lady in the New Yorker in 1996. The second bit of background is that no one quite knew why.





> ... she is a dreadful public speaker. Her speeches are mostly wonkish and dull, workaday constructions of a politician who appears to view human progress as a series of nudging policy improvements. Mr Obama’s vision is not dissimilar; but where the president elevates it with magical rhetoric, Mrs Clinton’s performance is so hammy as to annoy. “She sucks the life out of a room,” groans a member of her husband’s separate (and in fact rival) adoring coterie.


On the email server non-story ...


> In the annals of political misdeeds, future historians will not pause on Mrs Clinton’s e-mails long. But they will marvel at how an exaggerated belief in her malfeasance almost created the conditions for Mr Trump to seize the White House.


http://www.economist.com/news/unite...t-president-deeply-reviled-why-hating-hillary


----------



## humble_pie

mordko said:


> ... mysoginist


misogynist .each:

.


----------



## Nelley

agent99 said:


> I suspect the GOP has fed him with those proposals. They don't seem unreasonable to me. And I think that Trump would be about the worst thing that could happen to America (and us)


Why would you suspect something so stupid? The establishments of both major parties HATE these proposals.


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> misogynist .each:
> 
> .


I think you mean pedant.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Why would you suspect something so stupid? The establishments of both major parties HATE these proposals.


I think agent99 is correct. They are standard focus group tested election promises. Nothing new here and we'd all support most of them. 

Trump stomped all over his delivery by promising to go after the women who accused him of sexual assault/impropriety. His vindictiveness became the story instead of his policy points.


----------



## agent99

Nelley said:


> Why would you suspect something so stupid? The establishments of both major parties HATE these proposals.


Where did you get that information?


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> I think you mean pedant.



well, no, i didn't mean pedant. He mis-spelled the word misogynist. A frequent occurrence. He mis-spells often.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Saying that American voters will do this or that just makes you look like more of a moron-*you don't have the faintest clue what voters will or won't do*-nobody even knows how reliable the entire process is at this point.



OK but if you want to claim the above then you need to admit that a four-month-old survey from way back last july is totally meaningless nowadays

i mean you can't point yourself both ways although goodness knows you do try


----------



## mordko

humble_pie said:


> well, no, i didn't mean pedant. He mis-spelled the word misogynist. A frequent occurrence. He mis-spells often.


No hyphen in "mis-spell", should be one word. I won't even bother with HP's grammar, disdain for capital letters and love for drivel. An average teenager has a better writing style. Then again, the bits that are clear aren't worth the time spent reading them.


----------



## sags

Another day.........another female accuser.

View attachment 12169


----------



## humble_pie

^^


there he goes again! my goodness, such a spouting hydrant

of course there can be a hyphen in mis-spell, it depends on when & where in the transition from two words to one word one chooses to position it.

mordko's spelling is atrocious. Watch, we'll see more. 

as for my grammar, it's flawless. Neither do i write drivel. The stats on here don't lie. Who goes to see mordko's home page. Personne.




mordko said:


> ... the bits that are clear aren't worth the time spent reading them.



then why don't you ignore? i beg of you, ignore

why continue to torture yourself, when
a poor dumb crumb could not possibly say
anything worth your
exalted altitude's
reading
time

:frog:

.


----------



## mordko

> of course there can be a hyphen in mis-spell


^BS. As usual.


----------



## mordko

> as for my grammar, it's flawless. Neither do i write drivel.


^Glad you are so confident. Just as you are in the hyphen in "misspell". The irony would be lost on you, but you misspelled "misspell" while picking on my misspelling... Not to mention multiple rapes of grammar which you tend to make in every sentence. 

Nah, I won't put you on "ignore". Whatever you are spewing is SO screwed up that it's kind of fun.


----------



## sags

I dug one of these out.........thought it might be useful.

View attachment 12177


----------



## olivaw

^In my day, we'd take em behind the Gym.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> ^In my day, we'd take em behind the Gym.


Based on nothing but unproven allegations?? For many on the left, facts never seem to matter. You don't like Trump, so you assume he is guilty. You like Hillary, so all allegations against her are lies. You're just another hypocrite leftist.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Another day.........another female accuser.


The porn star who allegedly turned down $10K for a night with Trump? LOL, this one I don't believe.

There will be many more coming forward.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> ^In my day, we'd take em behind the Gym.


Just imagine if a Republican suggested violence against someone who had nothing but unproven allegations made against them...the entire Democrat party and the media would be calling for their head.

But, of course, the Democrats can do or say anything they want with impunity. What a bunch of pathetic hypocrites...


----------



## sags

SMK said:


> The porn star who allegedly turned down $10K for a night with Trump? LOL, this one I don't believe.
> 
> There will be many more coming forward.


It is a little bit out there. A woman who has sex for money..........was offended she was offered money for sex ?

And another woman steps forward. Actress Salma Halek says Trump was offended when she turned him down for a date and reacted by saying she was "too short" for him, and then planted a story about her in the National Enquirer. 

After attorney Gloria Alred shows up...........things always start to get a little bizarre.

The piling on of false accusations or accusations where nothing much happened is that it diminishes the women who were actually assaulted.

Sexual assault is a serious crime and some of this other stuff is just fluff............IMO.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> It is a little bit out there. A woman who has sex for money..........was offended she was offered money for sex ?
> 
> And another woman steps forward. Actress Salma Halek says Trump was offended when she turned him down for a date and reacted by saying she was "too short" for him, and then planted a story about her in the National Enquirer.
> 
> After attorney Gloria Alred shows up...........things always start to get a little bizarre.
> 
> The piling on of false accusations or accusations where nothing much happened is that it diminishes the women who were actually assaulted.
> 
> Sexual assault is a serious crime and some of this other stuff is just fluff............IMO.


This is unexpected-you have slightly separated yourself from Olivaw and the total Hillary zombie mentality-looks like the MSM has jumped the shark on this one-funny line about the porn "star" being offended by money.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> After attorney Gloria Alred shows up...........things always start to get a little bizarre.
> 
> The piling on of false accusations or accusations where nothing much happened is that it diminishes the women who were actually assaulted.


The porno star all lawyered up with a celebrity attorney, a "self-described avenger of women's rights." Who's paying her?

The selfless star has come forward to "support other women." :greedy_dollars:


----------



## mordko

According to ABC, Trump is +4 among "whites". This was the vote Trump was supposed to "deliver". Just 4 years ago Romney won this group by 20 points.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Just imagine if a Republican suggested violence against someone who had nothing but unproven allegations made against them...the entire Democrat party and the media would be calling for their head.
> 
> But, of course, the Democrats can do or say anything they want with impunity. What a bunch of pathetic hypocrites...


Slight difference between Joe Biden saying he'd like to take somebody out back of the gym and Trump talking about the second-amendment folks dealing with Hillary Clinton. 

It speaks to the desperation among the rabid anti-Hillary set. They equate a punch in the nose to assassination. :loyal:


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> This is unexpected-you have slightly separated yourself from Olivaw


I've made no comment on the porn star allegation ..... but nice try little theorist. We'll get you up to speed soon.


----------



## mordko

ok, the woman is a porn star and a sex educator. How does it make her allegation automatically false? Can she not be assaulted? Given that Trump brags about assaulting women, there is certainly a chance she is telling the truth.

A few years back Jeffrey Archer, a British lord and a famous writer took a prostitute to court for libel. Turned out she was telling the truth no he lied. He ended up in prison for that.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Slight difference between Joe Biden saying he'd like to take somebody out back of the gym and Trump talking about the second-amendment folks dealing with Hillary Clinton.
> 
> It speaks to the desperation among the rabid anti-Hillary set. They equate a punch in the nose to assassination. :loyal:


Trump never suggested assassination...that's just another lie from the deplorable Hillary supporters who have lost all credibility. The Democrats are so desperate that they have been reduced to trotting out porn stars to make false accusations that no one believes.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> According to ABC, Trump is +4 among "whites". This was the vote Trump was supposed to "deliver". Just 4 years ago Romney won this group by 20 points.


According to ABC, Crooked Hillary just last week won the Santa Cruz Triathlon-the bike race was her strongest part.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> According to ABC, Crooked Hillary just last week won the Santa Cruz Triathlon-the bike race was her strongest part.


Sure. And I have just seen an equally astute far left commentator who believes that Jill Stein is in the lead and the media is covering it up.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Sure. And I have just seen an equally astute far left commentator who believes that Jill Stein is in the lead and the media is covering it up.


The latest promise from Crooked Hillary is that if elected, all paper currency will be relabelled IN GEORGE SOROS WE TRUST.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> ok, the woman is a porn star and a sex educator. How does it make her allegation automatically false? Can she not be assaulted? Given that Trump brags about assaulting women, there is certainly a chance she is telling the truth.
> 
> A few years back Jeffrey Archer, a British lord and a famous writer took a prostitute to court for libel. Turned out she was telling the truth no he lied. He ended up in prison for that.


So far, your "opinion" is that every single allegation about Hillary is false, and all the ones about Trump are true. It must really suck not to be able to think for yourself and be forced to speak the party line at all times...it's no different than how people in North Korea and China act... 

Switch sides and you will be allowed to speak your mind. Stay with Hillary and you will be forced to comply with the party mantra...


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Trump never suggested assassination...that's just another lie from the deplorable Hillary supporters who have lost all credibility. The Democrats are so desperate that they have been reduced to trotting out porn stars to make false accusations that no one believes.


Sure bassy, they all got together on a conference call on Friday (they don't use email any more) and decided to hire a porn star to accuse Trump of offering her money for sex. Even if true, nobody cares. No votes will be moved.

Is it possible that Trump hired this women to discredit the others?

At this point, we need a farmer to come forward with livestock to make a truly exciting allegation.


----------



## mordko

> The latest promise from Crooked Hillary is that if elected, all paper currency will be relabelled IN GEORGE SOROS WE TRUST.


^ Right. Don't hold back your antisemite. Go for it.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> ^ Right. Don't hold back your antisemite. Go for it.


The entire Democrat party is anti-Semite, but, you are too brainwashed to recognize that.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> So far, your "opinion" is that every single allegation about Hillary is false, and all the ones about Trump are true. It must really suck not to be able to think for yourself and be forced to speak the party line at all times...it's no different than how people in North Korea and China act...
> 
> Switch sides and you will be allowed to speak your mind. Stay with Hillary and you will be forced to comply with the party mantra...


Your reading skills aren't all that good are they?

Here are a few examples of allegations against Hillary that are true:

- She lied about emails
- Her campaign was involved in major shenanigans during the Primaries, including provision of questions in advance of Town Hall meetings.
- She follows popular opinion and does not have views of her own, e.g. on gay marriage. 
- She has some very, very dodgy friends
- Her foreign policy as Secretary of State was partly responsible for the mess we are in with regards to Syria, Libya, Ukraine, etc...


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> The entire Democrat party is anti-Semite, but, you are too brainwashed to recognize that.


The "entire" Democratic party? Have you met the "entire Democratic party"? And what if you did - what has that got to do with Nelley's antisemitic conspiracy theories?


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> The "entire" Democratic party? Have you met the "entire Democratic party"? And what if you did - what has that got to do with Nelley's antisemitic conspiracy theories?


I was just making a blanket unproven statement...you now, like what the Trump haters do every day.

That being said, why is questioning Soro's ethics anti-Semite?


----------



## tygrus

Bass/Nelly, give it up already - you got nothing.

I too wanted trump to be different and he couldnt be. He had a chance, he blew it. I moved on. 

Doesnt matter what Clinton did in the past either. She only needs one quality for this election, she is not a narcissistic hot head with childlike ego and tantrum issues. And with that, all we can hope for is a single term spin your wheels in place president until a better crop of candidates comes up. I imagine a recession will have occurred by then which will be a motivator.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> That being said, why is questioning Soro's ethics anti-Semite?


You can question Soros's ethics all you like. Claiming that Clinton will put "In Soros we Trust" on the bills is an antisemitic conspiracy theory. It just is. Same as when Nelley supports Wikileaks claims that Rothschilds rule the media.


----------



## bass player

tygrus said:


> Doesnt matter what Clinton did in the past either.


Maybe it doesn't matter to you or to some of her supporters, but it matters a great deal to a lot of people.



tygrus said:


> She only needs one quality for this election, she is not a narcissistic hot head with childlike ego and tantrum issues.


Actually, she is but hides it better. And, she is also corrupt, a proven liar, and possibly hiding a serious health issue.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> Actually, she is but hides it better. And, she is also corrupt, a proven liar, and possibly hiding a serious health issue.


Anyone could be hiding a serious health issue. As for the rest - no it does not matter in this particular election. If I were American, I would vote for her in a heartbeat. And this would be the first time ever I'd support a Democrat.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> You can question Soros's ethics all you like. Claiming that Clinton will put "In Soros we Trust" on the bills is an antisemitic conspiracy theory. It just is. Same as when Nelley supports Wikileaks claims that Rothschilds rule the media.


So, anyone who questions Soros is anti-Semite?? That's the typical Democrat BS that is used every time someone questions a stupid action or comment made by Obama...they must only be doing this because they at racist.

People saw through those lies years ago. You should really try to keep up...


----------



## SMK

mordko said:


> ok, the woman is a porn star and a sex educator. How does it make her allegation automatically false? Can she not be assaulted?


Her allegations are not automatically false but highly suspect. She alleged Trump flirted with her, asked for her number, invited her for a walk and then to his hotel room. She accepted all, except she "didn't feel right about going to the hotel room alone"?, so she figured a foursome would be more profitable and safer than a twosome by taking 2 other women with her? What did the experienced adult film star think would happen in the hotel following previous welcomed flirtations?


----------



## tygrus

bass player said:


> Maybe it doesn't matter to you or to some of her supporters, but it matters a great deal to a lot of people.


You are living in the past. It matter 6 months ago when Trump could have exploited it instead of shooting himself square in the face. 

Now with 2 weeks left, people have to pick the less ugly of two evils. They have looked at the Dennys menu, too late to go somewhere else, time to order. Clinton at least takes the time and effort to put a mask on. Trump lets his shine for the world to see and it doesnt play. Buried somewhere in there are about 3 or 4 interesting policies that resonate, but he cant get them out, so give the stick to clinton for 4 years and see if someone else can run with it next time.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> So, anyone who questions Soros is anti-Semite?? ...
> People saw through those lies years ago. You should really try to keep up...


Let me try to spell it out. 

1. I am seeing no "questioning" of Soros in any way shape or form. I am seeing the claim that Hillary will put "In Soros we Trust" on banknotes. How is this "questioning" Soros? What is it questioning?

2. The claim that Hillary would do that is obviously false. What it tries to convey is that Hillary is in his pocket. Is it based on anything? Well, Soros donated to Hillary. But so did lots of other people who are not Jews. The number 1 donor is our own Canadian TD bank. 

3. So, let's for a second assume that Nelley is not spinning an antisemitic conspiracy theory about Soros (and Rothschilds as he did in the other thread). Let's assume he is only attacking Hillary for being in the pocket of vested interests. Surely, in that case he would reference the number 1 donor. He would have suggested that Hillary would put "in TD Bank we trust" on US dollar bills. Except that he didn't. And he also claims that (((Rothschilds))) rule the press. 

Of course the claims that Jews rule the press and are powerful puppeteers behind those in power = Protocols, a very old antisemitic fabrication. 

Is this not obvious?


----------



## olivaw

Donald Trump's son Eric has explained his father's position about the election. He'll accept it if he deems it fair. 

Is it just me, or do these things always follow the same script. 

1) Trump says something stupid

2) His poor surrogates try to back him with the most pained expressions on their faces? 

3) Mike Pence tries to say the same thing in a kindler gentler way. He almost winks at his crowds, as if to say - yeah, this is me being loyal. See you in 2020. 

4) Three or four days later, one of Trump's offspring explains it all away. The explanation isn't logical but it sounds less ominous than what Trump said.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Let me try to spell it out.
> 
> 1. I am seeing no "questioning" of Soros in any way shape or form. I am seeing the claim that Hillary will put "In Soros we Trust" on banknotes. How is this "questioning" Soros? What is it questioning?
> 
> 2. The claim that Hillary would do that is obviously false. What it tries to convey is that Hillary is in his pocket. Is it based on anything? Well, Soros donated to Hillary. But so did lots of other people who are not Jews. The number 1 donor is our own Canadian TD bank.
> 
> 3. So, let's for a second assume that Nelley is not spinning an antisemitic conspiracy theory about Soros (and Rothschilds as he did in the other thread). Let's assume he is only attacking Hillary for being in the pocket of vested interests. Surely, in that case he would reference the number 1 donor. He would have suggested that Hillary would put "in TD Bank we trust" on US dollar bills. Except that he didn't. And he also claims that (((Rothschilds))) rule the press.
> 
> Of course the claims that Jews rule the press and are powerful puppeteers behind those in power = Protocols, a very old antisemitic fabrication.
> 
> Is this not obvious?


BLAH BLAH BLAH-racist sexist anti this anti that transgender phobic-YOU STUPID BRAINDEAD SHEEP.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> BLAH BLAH BLAH-racist sexist anti this anti that transgender phobic-YOU STUPID BRAINDEAD SHEEP.


 "BLAH BLAH BLAH" followed by a brief mindless rant with a pinch of all-caps insults thrown for good measure.

Conspiracy Nelly's go-to fall-back reaction in lieu of an intelligent rebuttal every time; sad excuse for representation on the Donald's side, but that goes without saying.. who in their right mind would support that scary orange clown at this point, really.


----------



## tygrus

mrPPincer said:


> "BLAH BLAH BLAH"



hmmm, yes disturbingly similar to trump. When you cant handle debating (or even learning about) the issues rationally, you fall into hate fueled crazy accusation attack mode.

If Nelly and Bass are looking for a trump talking point, there is only one left. They are angry, dont care who gets elected even if its trump cause they want it all to be tore down hoping something better will rise from the ashes. Thats something we can definitely talk about, but defending trumps character is over.


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> BLAH BLAH BLAH-racist sexist anti this anti that transgender phobic-YOU STUPID BRAINDEAD SHEEP.


Did you just look in a mirror?


----------



## olivaw

Lighten up folks. Bass and Nelley spent eight years promoting birtherism. Eight years with nothing to show for it would leave anyone angry and bitter. 

Maybe say something kind about them. Help them reintegrate into the real world.

I hear that bass player is good at guitar hero. Nelley earned a solid C in social studies.


----------



## new dog

bass player said:


> I was just making a blanket unproven statement...you now, like what the Trump haters do every day.
> 
> That being said, why is questioning Soro's ethics anti-Semite?



We don't like Soros the person, there is nothing more to read into it then that.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> You can question Soros's ethics all you like. Claiming that Clinton will put "In Soros we Trust" on the bills is an antisemitic conspiracy theory. It just is. Same as when Nelley supports Wikileaks claims that Rothschilds rule the media.


Einstein: The Soros mention is a play on In God We Trust-which is on the US currency-you didn't find it funny but it technically isn't a "conspiracy theory"-it isn't meant to be taken literally, more like symbolically. You claim to be intelligent but you simply can't comprehend anything.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> We don't like Soros the person, there is nothing more to read into it then that.


Here is Mordko's logic: If you criticize Soros you hate Jews-if you criticize Hillary you hate women-if you criticize Obama you hate blacks-if you criticize Mordko you hate homosexuals-these attacks are meant to silence dissent and stop critical thinking.


----------



## Nelley

tygrus said:


> hmmm, yes disturbingly similar to trump. When you cant handle debating (or even learning about) the issues rationally, you fall into hate fueled crazy accusation attack mode.
> 
> If Nelly and Bass are looking for a trump talking point, there is only one left. They are angry, dont care who gets elected even if its trump cause they want it all to be tore down hoping something better will rise from the ashes. Thats something we can definitely talk about, but defending trumps character is over.


Hate fueled? When I make the observation that you are stupid it definitely is not an indication of hatred towards you-I try to be objective.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> Here is Mordko's logic: If you criticize Soros you hate Jews-if you criticize Hillary you hate women-if you criticize Obama you hate blacks-if you criticize Mordko you hate homosexuals-these attacks are meant are meant to silence dissent and stop critical thinking.


That's why the Dems didn't want a white man instead of Hillary...they can't blame any criticism on policies based on gender or skin colour. A white man would be fair game and create a level playing field which goes against all of their base instincts...


----------



## olivaw

^ too often people are accused of antisemitism or racism in these threads but if Nelley pushed the Rothschild family theory then he (or she) has come periloiusly close to an antisemitic rant. A sensible person would lay low. 

Conspiracy Nelley and Bass will continue to dig.

Here we have an example of Bass arguing that Hillary was only nominated because she was a woman. In bass player's mind, a generic white man would have been a better choice.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> ^ too often people are accused of antisemitism or racism in these threads but if Nelley pushed the Rothschild family theory then he (or she) has come periloiusly close to an antisemitic rant. A sensible person would lay low.
> 
> Comspiracy Nelley and Bass will continue to dig.


Einstein: I have never mentioned Rothschild-don't you even read these posts before you start typing?


----------



## tygrus

Nelly, your critical thinking hit the skids long ago when you decided to defend trump at all costs. 

Any logical person had tepid support for trump as he emerged from the primaries and convention. Then as the man torpedoed his own ship, that evaporated. 

Now its the least worst choice and I am afraid clinton takes that cake every time, just even by her ability to appear normal on tv for 30 minutes.


----------



## andrewf

The really funny thing is that almost any Republican candidate could have beaten Hillary. Trump was the only one that couldn't.


----------



## bgc_fan

andrewf said:


> The really funny thing is that almost any Republican candidate could have beaten Hillary. Trump was the only one that couldn't.


A few weeks/months ago, a pundit commented, "The only candidate that Trump could beat was Clinton (i.e. pick anyone else and it wouldn't be close), likewise, the only candidate that Clinton could beat was Trump".

If either party had settled on a different candidate, I suspect it wouldn't have been close.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Einstein: I have never mentioned Rothschild-don't you even read these posts before you start typing?


Mordko said you mentioned Rothschild in a different thread. Was he mistaken? Or did you couch your reference in some vague reference to five families or something. You're not as clever as you like to think.


----------



## tygrus

Well I think Ben Carson, Christie and Cruz still all lose to Clinton. But Bush or Rubio probably could beat her. 

And in an open contest, Clinton would lose to Bloomberg or Sanders or even Obama.

She is going to win the presidency more from a sense of default than anything inspirational. Maybe thats ok for now.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> The really funny thing is that almost any Republican candidate could have beaten Hillary. Trump was the only one that couldn't.


I doubt it. Marco Rubio might have had a shot but I can't imagine Cruz, Bush or Kasich being a sure thing. There is no way to argue with hypotheticals.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> The really funny thing is that almost any Republican candidate could have beaten Hillary. Trump was the only one that couldn't.


In a fair world, yes. But, Trump doesn't just have to take on Hillary...he also has to take on almost the entire media who have pulled out all the stops and shown just how biased and dishonest they are.

People are not stupid...the media has been outed as the Democrat shills that they really are. Some people still believe the lies, but those numbers are dwindling.


----------



## tygrus

bass player said:


> People are not stupid...the media has been outed as the Democrat shills that they really are. Some people still believe the lies, but those numbers are dwindling.


That argument is bogus. Trump gets 10 times the media coverage as Clinton. He does personal interviews by radio, phone, tv, internet every day. He has dozens of opportunities every day to clarify policy and reach out to voters. Yet he uses those opportunities to say and do something stupid every time. 

Some how the MSM shoved their hands up his a** and used him as a puppet to say all those things did they? Did they shun him? Nope. He is the architect of his own demise, nobody else.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Mordko said you mentioned Rothschild in a different thread. Was he mistaken? Or did you couch your reference in some vague reference to five families or something. You're not as clever as you like to think.


I have never mentioned Rothschild or your 5 families in any post-even you must admit it is pretty pathetic when you have to resort to making up stuff like this.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> I have never mentioned Rothschild


Not directly. Here is what happened:

1. Wikileaks blamed a negative article about Putin in the Economist on Rothschild. I posted a link to their tweet, which stated "The new sober cover of the Economist, which is controlled by Lynn de Rothschild, Clinton's "loyal adoring pal". This is the old antisemitic canard about nefarious Jews controlling the press. 

2. Nelley responded to antisemitism in 1 as follows: 


> "Like Mordko says- Wikileaks and all dissent needs to be shut down-the sheep can't be informed about anything-not good for the herd."


I did not actually say anything about shutting down Wikileaks or "dissent", but Nelley also reiterated the canard about press-control while expressing support for the antisemitic tweet by Wikileaks.

What does Nelley do next? Brings Soros into discussion as follows: 



> "The latest promise from Crooked Hillary is that if elected, all paper currency will be relabelled IN GEORGE SOROS WE TRUST."


Reference: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...-supremacists-menacing-Edmonton-streets/page8


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Not directly. Here is what happened:
> 
> 1. Wikileaks blamed a negative article about Putin in the Economist on Rothschild. I posted a link to their tweet, which stated "The new sober cover of the Economist, which is controlled by Lynn de Rothschild, Clinton's "loyal adoring pal". This is the old antisemitic canard about nefarious Jews controlling the press.
> 
> 2. Nelley responded to antisemitism in 1 as follows:
> 
> 
> I did not actually say anything about shutting down Wikileaks or "dissent", but Nelley also reiterated the canard about press-control while expressing support for the antisemitic tweet by Wikileaks.
> 
> What does Nelley do next? Brings Soros into discussion as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> Reference: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...-supremacists-menacing-Edmonton-streets/page8


Facts:1. I never even read your Wikileaks link-you have been very critical of Wikileaks-claiming it is a Russian operation-I was commenting on that. 2. I have mentioned George Soros a lot-I don't mention him or not mention him depending on what useless tripe you might have posted previously.


----------



## mordko

> I have mentioned George Soros a lot


Indeed.


----------



## bass player

tygrus said:


> That argument is bogus. Trump gets 10 times the media coverage as Clinton. He does personal interviews by radio, phone, tv, internet every day. He has dozens of opportunities every day to clarify policy and reach out to voters. Yet he uses those opportunities to say and do something stupid every time.
> 
> Some how the MSM shoved their hands up his a** and used him as a puppet to say all those things did they? Did they shun him? Nope. He is the architect of his own demise, nobody else.


Trump got a lot of coverage because he played the media game perfectly and used it to his advantage. Once the media caught on and realized that he was using them and doing well in the polls and might actually have a chance, they went into full attack mode. However, it might be too late.

And yes, he says stupid things. But, the fact is that they are just stupid comments that pale in comparison to Hillary's actual corrupt actions. People know the difference between bluster and bragging as compared to corruption.


----------



## tygrus

bass player said:


> And yes, he says stupid things. But, the fact is that they are just stupid comments that pale in comparison to Hillary's actual corrupt actions. People know the difference between bluster and bragging as compared to corruption.


Lets dispel that while we are at it. Secretary of state is a position of no real power. Its about number 5 in the chain of command behind president, VP, Defense, Treasury, Homeland Security and Justice. Its really a global glad handing job. There is no way she was in the forefront of decision making for any policy or action in Obama's first term. 

And whatever dealings she had in her home state before being elected would be on par with Trumps business dealings over the last 30 years.

As SoS, Clinton traveled like 75% of the time. She was barely in the country most of the time, mostly away from the real power brokering going on. That would be a bigger argument against her qualifications than anything else.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Facts:1. I never even read your Wikileaks link-you have been very critical of Wikileaks-claiming it is a Russian operation-I was commenting on that. 2. I have mentioned George Soros a lot-I don't mention him or not mention him depending on what useless tripe you might have posted previously.


Fair enough. Nelley responded to a posts without reading it or the link and ended up looking like a bigot. :saturn: Is this a teachable moment for conspiracy Nelley?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Fair enough. Nelley responded to a posts without reading it or the link and ended up looking like a bigot. :saturn: Is this a teachable moment for conspiracy Nelley?


Both yourself and Mordko appear to be in favour of government corruption on a massive scale-therefore according to you Wikileaks or any whistleblower has to simply be accused of bigotry and the info leaked either is meaningless or should be suppressed. If I am a bigot then both you and Mordko are NAZIS.


----------



## olivaw

LOL - wikileaks is no longer in the business of exposing government data. It's all about releasing private emails stolen by Russian hackers now. it's so lame that Assange is embarrassing himself and Ecuador.

NAZI - say what?

ETA: I'm not aware of antisemitic tweets but Assange best be careful or he'll find himself kicked out of the Ecuadorian embassy. They already took away his Internet access.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Both yourself and Mordko appear to be in favour of government corruption on a massive scale-therefore according to you Wikileaks or any whistleblower has to simply be accused of bigotry and the info leaked either is meaningless or should be suppressed. If I am a bigot then both you and Mordko are NAZIS.


This is an impressive tirade with the premise not making any sense. Even if it did and I were a huge fan of government corruption (isn't every top rate taxpayer?), how exactly is Wilileaks support for Putin helps to fight corruption? Is Nelley saying that Putin is anti-corruption? Really? Would that be why every childhood friend of his is a billionaire with accounts in Panama? Or is it the obvious antisemitism in the Wilileaks tweet that helps to fight corruption? 

As for your final statement... You need to see a doctor.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> This is an impressive tirade with the premise not making any sense. Even if it did and I were a huge fan of government corruption (isn't every top rate taxpayer?), how exactly is Wilileaks support for Putin helps to fight corruption? Is Nelley saying that Putin is anti-corruption? Really? Would that be why every childhood friend of his is a billionaire with accounts in Panama? Or is it the obvious antisemitism in the Wilileaks tweet that helps to fight corruption?
> 
> As for your final statement... You need to see a doctor.


You are a broken record-according to you Putin is responsible for Wikileaks, Trump and Brexit-you forgot Global Warming, the Kardashians and Justin Bieber.


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> I doubt it. Marco Rubio might have had a shot but I can't imagine Cruz, Bush or Kasich being a sure thing. There is no way to argue with hypotheticals.


I was thinking the GOP would pick Rubio and won Florida/Hispanics. Bush, I think, could have won. Cruz is pretty well reviled, but I think even he would have been able to rally the GOP base.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> In a fair world, yes. But, Trump doesn't just have to take on Hillary...he also has to take on almost the entire media who have pulled out all the stops and shown just how biased and dishonest they are.
> 
> People are not stupid...the media has been outed as the Democrat shills that they really are. Some people still believe the lies, but those numbers are dwindling.


Trump was the most disastrous candidate the GOP could have picked.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> I was thinking the GOP would pick Rubio and won Florida/Hispanics. Bush, I think, could have won. Cruz is pretty well reviled, but I think even he would have been able to rally the GOP base.


I thought they would have picked Marco Rubio too. He could have won the general but I don't think it would have been a slam dunk.

The Bush name is still toxic. 

Cruz is an unknown. He didn't help himself with his stunts in the senate. He's very intelligent. Nobody could accuse him of being a RINO. I just don't know if he can overcome his incredible lack of charisma. Nobody likes him except his own family and Mike Lee. I'm not so sure about Mike Lee.


----------



## sags

The Republicans got caught up in their own anti-immigrant ideology and Trump was the candidate who triumphed the extreme.

By doing so, he ventured where other Primary candidates wouldn't go and won the nomination by losing the general election.

It will be interesting to see if the Republicans continue down the same rhetorical path as they have been on for the past 8 years.

If they do it will guarantee successive future victories for the Democrats.

The American electorate has changed. It isn't predominantly old, white and male anymore.

If elections of a black President and a woman President doesn't convince the Republicans they need to change........nothing will.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> You are a broken record-according to you Putin is responsible for Wikileaks, Trump and Brexit-you forgot Global Warming, the Kardashians and Justin Bieber.


Except that I never said any of these things but sure.

In fact:

- Putin has been using Wilileaks lately. This bit is the closest to the truth.
- 13 million dumb Americans (4 percent of the total) who voted for him in the Primaries are responsible for Trump. More voted against. Putin isn't responsible but has tried to interfere in the elections on Trumps behalf. Just like he interfered in France and Hungary by funding the far right.
- I actually supported Brexit, although not enough to vote. Putin had nothing to do with it.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> If elections of a black President and a woman President doesn't convince the Republicans they need to change........nothing will.


Obama was a total failure, but to the Democrats the only thing that mattered is that he is black. Now, they want to elect someone because they have a vagina.

The Democrats need to stop thinking that gender and race are more important than qualifications.


----------



## SMK

I think Bush and Rubio could have won the presidency had they been Clinton's opponent, but not Cruz. Hillary is very, very lucky that Trump is on the ticket, it's the only reason she'll win.


----------



## bass player

And yet more Clinton corruption is revealed:

"Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe, a longtime Clinton confidant, helped steer $675,000 to the election campaign of the wife of an FBI official who went on to lead the probe into Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email system, according to a report.

The political action committee of McAuliffe, the Clinton loyalist, gave $467,500 to the state Senate campaign of the wife of Andrew McCabe, who is now deputy director of the FBI, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Jill McCabe received an additional $207,788 from the Virginia Democratic Party, the report states, which is heavily influenced by McAuliffe.

The money directed by McAuliffe began flowing two months after the FBI investigation into Clinton began in July 2015. Around that time, the candidate’s husband was promoted from running the Washington field office for the FBI to the No. 3 position at the FBI.

Within a year, McCabe was promoted to deputy director, the second-highest position in the bureau.

In a statement to the Journal, the FBI said McCabe “played no role, attended no events, and did not participate in fundraising or support of any kind. Months after the completion of her campaign, then-Associate Deputy Director McCabe was promoted to Deputy, where, in that position, he assumed for the first time, an oversight role in the investigation into Secretary Clinton’s emails."

http://nypost.com/2016/10/24/clinton-ally-gave-500k-to-wife-of-fbi-agent-on-email-probe/


----------



## sags

Funding their candidates is what political parties do in elections. Nothing unusual about that.

The timing of the investigation was pushed by Republicans who hoped to uncover some dirt on Clinton in time for the election.

Ironic that they not only didn't get anything on Clinton, but did inadvertently create the timing of the campaign funding.

Poor decisions and incompetence in the Republican Party in a lot of different ways.

They should dismantle the party, toss the fringe right wingers out, and move forward without the baggage.

Spending the last 8 years focused on birtherism, anti-immigrant messaging, and obstruction has rendered them obsolete.


----------



## agent99

bass player said:


> Obama was a total failure, but to the Democrats the only thing that mattered is that he is black. Now, they want to elect someone because they have a vagina.
> 
> The Democrats need to stop thinking that gender and race are more important than qualifications.


That post shows more about the poster than the facts. C'mon Man!


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> anti-immigrant messaging,


San Bernadino Shooting

Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik



> Rizwan Farook (June 14, 1987[4] – December 2, 2015) and Tashfeen Malik[a] (July 13, 1986[5] – December 2, 2015) were the two perpetrators of a terrorist attack at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, California, on December 2, 2015. In the attack, they killed 14 civilians and injured 22 others.[6][7][8] Both later died in a shootout with police later that same day.[9][10][11]
> 
> Farook was born in Chicago, Illinois,[12][13][14] and was a U.S. citizen at the time of the attack. *His parents had immigrated from Pakistan.*



Orlando Shooting

Omar Mateen




> Omar Mir Seddique Mateen (November 16, 1986 – June 12, 2016) was an American mass murderer who killed 49 people and wounded 53 others in a mass shooting at the Pulse gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida on June 12, 2016 before he was killed in a shootout with the local police. It was both the deadliest shooting by a single shooter and the deadliest act of violence against LGBT people in U.S. history.
> 
> Mateen was born Omar Mir Seddique[6] on November 16, 1986,[7] in New Hyde Park, New York, to Afghan parents. *His father, Mir Seddique Mateen, is a Pashtun[8] who emigrated in the 1980s*




Chelsea Bombing


> A “deafening’’ explosion rocked Chelsea Saturday night, injuring 29 people, blowing out scores of windows and forcing the evacuation of at least two buildings.
> The blast went off in a construction Dumpster outside the Townhouse Inn of Chelsea at 131 W. 23d St.
> 
> 
> 
> Mayor de Blasio called the explosion an “intentional act,” but not believed to be connected to terrorism.
> 
> But tensions only rose when, three hours after the blast, a second device was found four blocks away — a pressure cooker that an early investigation found was likely also a bomb.
> 
> Police sources described the secondary device as a cooker with wiring and a cell phone attached inside a plastic grocery bag, which had been placed inside a garbage can



Ahmad Khan Rahami





> In just a few days, Ahmad Khan Rahami went from virtually unknown to a suspected serial bomber.
> 
> Police captured Rahami after a shootout Monday in New Jersey, ending the hunt for the man wanted for a New Jersey explosion and a bombing in New York that left 29 people injured.
> 
> -- *Rahami was born in Afghanistan in 1988 and first came to the United States in 1995*, several years after his father arrived seeking asylum, a law enforcement official said.
> -- He became a naturalized citizen in 2011.



Boston Marathon Bombing



> Boston Marathon bombing was a terrorist attack, followed by subsequent related shootings, that occurred when two pressure cooker bombs exploded during the Boston Marathon on April 15, 2013. The bombs exploded about 12 seconds and 210 yards (190 m) apart at 2:49 pm EDT, near the marathon's finish line on Boylston Street. The explosion killed 3 civilians and injured an estimated 264 others


Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and Tamerlan Tsarnaev



> In April 2002, the *Tsarnaev parents and Dzhokhar went to the United States on a 90-day tourist visa.[37][38][39] Anzor Tsarnaev applied for asylum, citing fears of deadly persecution due to his ties to Chechnya.*[40]



Paris Attacks

November 2015 Paris attacks



> The November 2015 Paris attacks were a series of coordinated terrorist attacks that occurred on Friday 13 November 2015 in Paris, France and the city's northern suburb, Saint-Denis.[9] Beginning at 21:16 CET, three suicide bombers struck outside the Stade de France in Saint-Denis, during a football match. This was followed by several mass shootings, and a suicide bombing, at cafés and restaurants. Gunmen carried out another mass shooting and took hostages at a concert in the Bataclan theatre, leading to a stand-off with police. The attackers were shot or blew themselves up when police raided the theatre.[10]
> The attackers killed 130 people,[2] including 89 at the Bataclan theatre.[11] Another 368 people were injured,[4] 80–99 seriously
> 
> All of the known Paris attackers were EU citizens, who crossed borders without difficulty, albeit registered as terrorism suspects.[23] According to the French prime minister, Manuel Valls, several of the perpetrators had exploited Europe's immigration crisis to enter the continent undetected.[25] At least some, including the alleged leader Abdelhamid Abaaoud, had visited Syria and returned radicalised. Jean-Charles Brisard, a French expert on terrorism, called this a change of paradigm, in that returning European citizens were themselves the attackers.[26] The Los Angeles Times reported that more than 3,000 Europeans have travelled to Syria and joined ISIL and other radical groups.[26]



Nice Truck attack

Attack in Nice: Truck driver identified as 31-year-old Tunisia native



> A day after a terrorist mowed down dozens of people celebrating Bastille Day in the coastal French city of Nice, investigators dug into the life of the man they say was the killer: A 31-year-old delivery driver and Nice resident who was born
> in Tunisia.
> 
> Authorities said Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel drove a rented, refrigerated truck weighing about 20 tons into crowds along a roughly 2-kilometer stretch of Promenade des Anglais on Thursday night, killing 84 people -- including 10 children and adolescents -- and injuring 202 others.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> They should dismantle the party, toss the fringe right wingers out, and move forward without the baggage.


I've put some thought into this and, best I can tell, strong factions will always dominate more passive factions. In other words, the crazies will always win.

Every once in a while, the more reasonable members will become sufficiently fed up as to step up and re-gain control of the burning ship.

In the case of the Republican party, I'm not sure how many reasonable members they have left. The party has been taken over by some pretty far out thinking.




sags said:


> Spending the last 8 years focused on birtherism, anti-immigrant messaging, and obstruction has rendered them obsolete.


The sheer quantity of crazy emitting from that party makes it difficult to take them seriously.

The hate is easier to take seriously. Hate is driving this election. Hillary should be happy for Republican hate because it will drive her to the white house. People will stand up to hate. They won't necessarily stand up to crazy.


----------



## bass player

If Project Veritas had revealed the same things about Trump, the DOJ and FBI would have started an investigation within 3 seconds. Since it's about Hillary, they pretend it never happened...they don't even want to look at the unedited footage.

And the Hillary supporters think that's okay...they are morally and ethically corrupt.


----------



## mrPPincer

^Boo Hoo Hoo. Life. just. ain't. fair!


----------



## olivaw

and ....


----------



## sags

More leaks coming out from Wikileaks.

They are a day late and a dollar short of the prophesy the leaks that would hurt Clinton's election campaign.

Voters are already casting ballots, and 40% of votes will be cast before November 8. 

There are long lineups at the polls and most are voting for Hillary, according to exit polling.

This turkey of a campaign has already been roasted. It is ready for the dinner table.........all golden brown and savory.

Clinton is already picking the members of her new administration. 

It sounded by her speech today, that Elizabeth Warren will play a big role in banking and finance.

An Elizabeth Warren appointment would put a big crimp in the "Hillary loves Wall Street" theory.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> ^Boo Hoo Hoo. Life. just. ain't. fair!


Fair to progressives really means "give me what you have".


----------



## sags

No it means "give some back......you can't have it all".

Share the carrots, pass the potatoes, divide up the pie............instead of, "please sir. could I have some more".


----------



## bass player

Elizabeth Warren?? She lied and said she was Native American in an attempt to advance her career. 

But, it's no surprise that Hillary wants to reward another leftist liar, and it's no surprise that the morally corrupt Hillary supporters are okay with Hillary rewarding a known liar. You people are pathetic.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> No it means "give some back......you can't have it all".
> 
> Share the carrots, pass the potatoes, divide up the pie............instead of, "please sir. could I have some more".


What exactly did they "take" from others by working hard and earning a living for themselves?


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Fair to progressives really means "give me what you have".


:tennis:
You could make a fortune selling your pearls of wisdom inside cookies to the food courts in the trump towers :greedy_dollars:


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> :tennis:
> You could make a fortune selling your pearls of wisdom inside cookies to the food courts in the trump towers :greedy_dollars:


Well, at least the Trump supporters would actually buy the cookies with money they earned by working...the Hillary supporters would either steal them or demand that they be "shared" for free...


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Well, at least the Trump supporters would actually buy the cookies with money they earned by working...the Hillary supporters would either steal them or demand that they be "shared" for free...


Of course, you would be opposed to random spot-checks by our quality assurance teams, you trumpites want to deregulate everything and create complete chaos :stupid:


----------



## olivaw

Side note: Julian Assange of wikileaks *is a lot like Trump*. 



> There are few limits to how far Assange will go to try to control those around him. Those working at WikiLeaks – a radical transparency organisation based on the idea that all power must be accountable – were asked to sign a sweeping nondisclosure agreement covering all conversations, conduct, and material, with Assange having sole power over disclosure. The penalty for noncompliance was £12 million.
> 
> I refused to sign the document, which was sprung on me on what was supposed to be a short trip to a country house used by WikiLeaks. The others present – all of whom had signed without reading – then alternately pressured, cajoled, persuaded, charmed, and pestered me to sign it, alone and in groups, until well past 4am.
> 
> Given how remote the house was, there was no prospect of leaving. I stayed the night, only to be woken very early by Assange, sitting on my bed, prodding me in the face with a stuffed giraffe, immediately once again pressuring me to sign. It was two hours later before I could get Assange off the bed so I could (finally) get some pants on, and many hours more until I managed to leave the house without signing the ridiculous contract. An apologetic staffer present for the farce later admitted they’d been under orders to “psychologically pressure” me until I signed.
> 
> https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/...julian-assange?utm_term=.db9mykKbk#.tyXQzNZBN


----------



## mrPPincer

Trumpites are against free cookies


----------



## bass player

^^
So what? Every single person who doesn't want to sign a non-disclosure agreement has the right to not accept a job that requires one.

I worked at a career for 3 decades where I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement that prevented from disclosing certain details of my work. To top it off, now that I am retired, I am still obligated to keep certain aspects of my job secret. Failure to do so (and unlike Hillary), I could face criminal charges if I broke that agreement.

Had I not liked the terms, I was free to seek work elsewhere.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Trumpites are against free cookies


No, they are against people taking their cookies under their definition of "fairness". But, they won't prevent those very same people from baking their own cookies if they so choose...


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> ^^
> So what? Every single person who doesn't want to sign a non-disclosure agreement has the right to not accept a job that requires one.
> 
> I worked at a career for 3 decades where I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement that prevented from disclosing certain details of my work. To top it off, now that I am retired, I am still obligated to keep certain aspects of my job secret. Failure to do so (and unlike Hillary), I could face criminal charges if I broke that agreement.
> 
> Had I not liked the terms, I was free to seek work elsewhere.


Nah, you're confusing a boilerplate business NDA with one sided agreement that enforces unquestioning fealty. Did your boss come to your bedroom and poke you in the face with a stuffed giraffe to sign it? 

There's more .....



> To an outsider, the WikiLeaks of 2016 looks totally unrelated to the WikiLeaks of 2010. Then it was a darling of many of the liberal left, working with some of the world’s most respected newspapers and exposing the truth behind drone killing, civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq, and surveillance of top UN officials.
> 
> Now it is the darling of the alt-right, revealing hacked emails seemingly to influence a presidential contest, claiming the US election is “rigged”, and descending into conspiracy. Just this week on Twitter, it described the deaths by natural causes of two of its supporters as a “bloody year for WikiLeaks”, and warned of media outlets “controlled by” members of the Rothschild family – a common anti-Semitic trope.


https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/...julian-assange?utm_term=.sbJOVeNDe#.jtM3jY1MY


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Nah, you're confusing a boilerplate business NDA with one sided agreement that enforces unquestioning fealty. Did your boss come to your bedroom and poke you in the face with a stuffed giraffe to sign it?


Was that accusation proven?

Regardless, the person had the option to seek other employment if the terms of that job were not to their satisfaction.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> No, they are against people taking their cookies under their definition of "fairness". But, they won't prevent those very same people from baking their own cookies if they so choose...


OK, so free cookies for the 1 percenters, and if you aren't in the elite free-cookie-club, it's bake your own dam cookies, sounds fair.
Next logical step you'd be telling me that only the elite are entitled to the chicken for every pot scenario.

To extrapolate.. trumpites are against pot, chicken and free cookies.
What's next, banning a puppy-dog and free kitten for every kid?

And they think the election is fixed :stupid:


----------



## bass player

Once again, another clueless progressive proves beyond a doubt that you can't fix stupid...


----------



## mrPPincer

Great, I reaffirmed your ignorant bias, apologies 

But I did notice that you didn't deny that you trumpites are against puppy-dogs and kittens.

So now we know the facts, trumpites are against puppy-dogs, kittens, and free cookies.


----------



## mrPPincer

^Apologies all, seems I'm going full Nelly tonight.
___

Fighting stoopid with stoopid :stupid:


----------



## TomB19

What about all of those people that Hillary knocked off? Last I read, she was responsible for over 100 murders.

This is addressed to Nelley and bass player. Why does law enforcement not put her in jail?


----------



## new dog

This is all true but it would be like pinning murder or whatever on a mob boss. Unless there is someone on the inside or someone speaks out connecting them then they can't be connected to anything.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> This is all true but it would be like pinning murder or whatever on a mob boss. Unless there is someone on the inside or someone speaks out connecting them then they can't be connected to anything.


You would think any adult would be aware of this-the likelihood of a murder being solved when a professional is used is very slim-OJ could have saved himself a lot of grief if he had simply contracted the work out like Crooked Hillary does.


----------



## new dog

I thought the forum buddies would love this article from our favourite web site Zerohedge. It is an article about our best friend George Soros and vote rigging. I don't know much about it but I know we all love articles about our friend.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-24/concern-grows-over-soros-linked-voting-machines


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> What about all of those people that Hillary knocked off? Last I read, she was responsible for over 100 murders.
> 
> This is addressed to Nelley and bass player. Why does law enforcement not put her in jail?


She will probably be impeached for selling herself (Oops I meant selling her office) :redface:


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> I thought the forum buddies would love this article from our favourite web site Zerohedge. It is an article about our best friend George Soros and vote rigging. I don't know much about it but I know we all love articles about our friend.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-24/concern-grows-over-soros-linked-voting-machines


You can't mention the great George Soros on this forum-Mordko will get the vapors like Scarlett Ohara.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> She will probably be impeached for selling herself (Oops I meant selling her office) :redface:


This pretty much sums up the state of the race. Hillary haters no longer talk of beating her in November. It's about impeachment now. 

Same thing happened after Barack won in 2008 and 2012.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> This pretty much sums up the state of the race. Hillary haters no longer talk of beating her in November. It's about impeachment now.
> 
> Same thing happened after Barack won in 2008 and 2012.


I don't know who is going to win this thing-but you are convinced Hillary win will-you keep typing the same thing over and over as if everyone forgot-we get it-one reasonable request IF the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet actually loses this thing how about apologizing to all readers for wasting so much space stating the same thing over and over.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> I don't know who is going to win this thing-but you are convinced Hillary win will-you keep typing the same thing over and over as if everyone forgot-we get it-one reasonable request IF the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet actually loses this thing how about apologizing to all readers for wasting so much space stating the same thing over and over.


Here's a picture. Hope it doesn't annoy you, little theorist...


----------



## Nelley

Obviously Wynnebag's carbon taxes are working well-today marks the end of the hurricane season in the USA-the completion of an all time record-ELEVEN straight years without a major hit-ManBearPig should be ashamed to show his face http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...pletes-record-breaking-11-years-without-major


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Here's a picture. Hope it doesn't annoy you, little theorist...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12209


Of course a poll will show Hillary in the lead when a disproportionate amount of Democrats are polled.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> This pretty much sums up the state of the race. Hillary haters no longer talk of beating her in November. It's about impeachment now.
> 
> Same thing happened after Barack won in 2008 and 2012.


Barack? You mean Miquetoast don't you? The great philosopher-king whose inactions have emboldened a psychopath and created the standoff between Russia and the 
West. The great intellectual whose passivity has lead to the death of hundreds of thousands in Syria. 

Whose Obamacare has premiums that are increasing dramatically.

What a legacy.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Of course a poll will show Hillary in the lead when a disproportionate amount of Democrats are polled.


In 2012, Obama was favoured in the polls. Republicans claimed democratic bias and a site called unskewedpolls.com sprang up to adjust them to favour Romney. Obama won. unskewedpolls.com now sells makeup. 

Here's an interesting discussion by Nate Silver: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-arent-skewed-trump-really-is-losing-badly/



> The basic premise of the unskewers is wrong. Most pollsters don’t weight their results by party self-identification, which polls get by asking a question like “generally speaking, do you usually think of yourself as a….” Party identification is an attitude, not a demographic. There isn’t some national number from the government that tells us how many Democrats and Republicans there are in the country. Some states collect party registration data, but many states do not. Moreover, party registration is not the same thing as party identification. In a state like Kentucky, for example, there are a lot more registered Democrats than registered Republicans, but more voters identified as Republican in the 2014 election exit polls.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Barack? You mean Miquetoast don't you? The great philosopher-king whose inactions have emboldened a psychopath and created the standoff between Russia and the
> West. The great intellectual whose passivity has lead to the death of hundreds of thousands in Syria.
> 
> Whose Obamacare has premiums that are increasing dramatically.
> 
> What a legacy.


President Barack Hussein Obama enjoys a 57% approval rating. Not bad for an outgoing president. 

I predict that history will be kind to Obama. I can't say the same for obstructionist Republicans like Mitch McConnell who promise to block him at every turn.


----------



## wraphter

Meanwhile the tsunami of illegals continue to flood across the border.No doubt encouraged by His Benevolence in the White House
in order to increase the number of voters who will vote Democrat.



> Nearly 1 in 4 students at this L.A. high school migrated from Central America — many without their parents
> 
> Gaspar Marcos stepped off the 720 bus into early-morning darkness in MacArthur Park after the end of an eight-hour shift of scrubbing dishes in a Westwood restaurant.
> 
> ..............
> 
> Minutes ticked by, and others straggled into the class, nine in all. Like Marcos, most had worked a full shift the night before — sewing clothes, cooking in restaurants, painting homes.
> 
> Most were immigrants from Central America, part of several waves of more than 100,000 who arrived as children in the U.S. in the past five years without parents, often after perilous journeys.
> 
> ...............
> 
> Many ended up in classrooms throughout the country. In Los Angeles’ Belmont High, nearly 1 in 4 of the school’s estimated 1,000 students came from Central America — many of them as unaccompanied minors.
> 
> They crossed the border to reunite with mothers and fathers or to find refuge from unprecedented gang violence at home. Some dare to dream they will find success in America, not just the means to survive.


Quite an immigration policy you got there Barry. 
How about your own Kenyan relatives in the US illegally?


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> How about your own Kenyan relatives in the US illegally?


2014 called. It wants its birther theory back.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> 2014 called. It wants its birther theory back.


Actually, it was 2008 with Hillary. You were told that several times before, but you have a bad case of selective memory.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> 2014 called. It wants its birther theory back.


What an absurd comment.

President Wuss has 2 illegal relatives in the US.

Zeituni Onyango, Obama aunt who lived in US illegally, dies at 61

Judge says Obama’s uncle can stay in US



> A federal immigration judge ruled Tuesday that President Obama’s uncle can remain in the United States, sparing him deportation to his native Kenya in a case that riveted attention on the elderly man who had lived under the radar in this country for 50 years. For most of that time, he was here illegally.


 

The fact that half his family is Muslim perhaps explains his passivity in the face of Muslim aggression.

It is perfectly reasonable to question his judgement and loyalty in the sphere of his interactions with the Islamic world.

His policies have lead to catastrophe.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> His policies have lead to catastrophe.



led to catastrophe


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter;1311105You mean Miquetoast don't you?[/QUOTE said:


> milquetoast


----------



## wraphter

^
Thank you.
My room is dark and I was getting carried away.


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> I don't know who is going to win this thing-but you are convinced Hillary win will-you keep typing the same thing over and over as if everyone forgot-we get it-one reasonable request IF the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet actually loses this thing how about apologizing to all readers for wasting so much space stating the same thing over and over.


One might reasonably ask the same thing of yourself.


----------



## humble_pie

.
is *milquetoast* the right word for barack though

then there's *judgment*

in the US it's *judgment* without the "e"
in the UK it's still mostly *judgement*



wraphter said:


> ... question his judgement



we have to be real careful in cmf forum - for the sake of a couple high-strung personnages on here - about who goes for the celtic/saxon/oldhighnorse roots of a word vs who goes for the latin

.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> My room is dark and I was getting carried away.


There's no need to get wraphted up with spelling flames.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> She will probably be impeached for selling herself (Oops I meant selling her office) :redface:


I thought she was a lesbian?

AS a non-Republican, it's tough to keep track of the ridiculous statement of the moment.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> The fact that half his family is Muslim perhaps explains his passivity in the face of Muslim aggression.
> 
> It is perfectly reasonable to question his judgement and loyalty in the sphere of his interactions with the Islamic world.
> 
> His policies have lead to catastrophe.


Ahhhh ..... birtherism 2.0. Don't say Obama is a Kenyan Muslim. Say he is related to Kenyan Muslims so that you continue to question his loyalty to his country and his Christian faith.


----------



## olivaw

Great news for wraphter, Nelley and bass player ....

*Trump’s Campaign Is Launching a Nightly News Show on Facebook*



> Members of the media quickly seized on the event, calling it a test drive for Trump TV, the post-election television network that Trump is rumored to be considering in the event he loses in November. Despite reports that his son-in-law has been talking to media dealmakers about Trump TV, Trump himself has denied he has any interest in such a thing.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Meanwhile the tsunami of illegals continue to flood across the border.No doubt encouraged by His Benevolence in the White House
> in order to increase the number of voters who will vote Democrat.



wraph so sorry but i'm not getting your picture. If they're illegal, then they're not registered to vote, no?

are you saying that tsunamis of illegals climb out of coyote trucks or struggle underneath pieces of carpeting beneath barbed wire fences

soon as they're inside the US of A they know to walk straight to polling stations & pull the democratic lever? then somebody pays em?

if it were all as easy as that, surely donald trump would have figured it out years ago

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> wraph so sorry but i'm not getting your picture. If they're illegal, then they're not registered to vote, no?
> 
> are you saying that tsunamis of illegals climb out of coyote trucks or struggle underneath pieces of carpeting beneath barbed wire fences
> 
> soon as they're inside the US of A they know to walk straight to polling stations & pull the democratic lever? then somebody pays em?
> 
> if it were all as easy as that, surely donald trump would have figured it out years ago
> 
> .


SURE-Project Veritas is nothing but a crazy Conspiracy Theory-if it was legit it would be all over CNN and ABC and NBC.


----------



## olivaw

^project veritas is a conspiracy site run by James O'Keefe. He's a convicted criminal who has been caught doctoring videos. 

The question isn't O'Keefe's honesty. He's a known falsifier. The question is whether or not he is on the Trump campaign payroll.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> ^project veritas is a conspiracy site run by James O'Keefe. He's a convicted criminal who has been caught doctoring videos.
> 
> The question isn't O'Keefe's honesty. He's a known falsifier. The question is whether or not he is on the Trump campaign payroll.


My comment was meant to be sarcastic-I didn't think anyone here would be stupid enough to crawl under a bar set so low-my misjudgement obviously.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> My comment was meant to be sarcastic-I didn't think anyone here would be stupid enough to crawl under a bar set so low-my misjudgement obviously.


You've certainly lowered the bar but your back peddling on O'Keefe could have been more graceful.


----------



## sags

With Trump........out goes all his nutty ideas and as Martha Stewart says............that is a good thing.


----------



## sags

The test is going to be in the Congress and Senate. If control is retained by the Republicans, it is going to be 4 more years of gridlock.


----------



## sags

A lot of down ballot races are very close. The Democrats appear to be making headway. 

Any association with Trump is toxic to Republican candidates. Those who supported him are running away as fast as they can.

Some high level Republican political careers may go down in flames with Trump........they didn't see that coming.

It will be an interesting election night.


----------



## olivaw

Dems have a shot at the Senate but they probably can't take the House. You never know though - Trump still has time to do plenty of damage.


----------



## Pluto

Two more weeks and this penny dreadful unfolding will be over.


----------



## mordko

A highly respected former US ambassador to Russia does not mince words on Wikileaks - A foreign agent handling stolen data on behalf of the Russian regime. And their hands are dripping with blood. 

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ambassador-to-russia-going-after-wikileaks-in


----------



## wraphter

Strictly X-rated---Inside Donald Trump’s One-Stop Parties: Attendees Recall Cocaine and Very Young Models


----------



## sags

One pollster developed a projection model based on the number of primary votes cast in each State, and he predicts Trump will win.

His model correctly predicted the outcome of every past Presidential race, except for the Gore/Bush election, which Gore may actually have won as well.

Mitt Romney thought he was going to win, according to their own polls at the time, and was shocked on election night.

One factor that may break the projection is that Trump has become a worse candidate as time went on.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> A highly respected former US ambassador to Russia does not mince words on Wikileaks - A foreign agent handling stolen data on behalf of the Russian regime. And their hands are dripping with blood.
> 
> http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ambassador-to-russia-going-after-wikileaks-in


As usual with the leftist hypocrites, he only has outrage for those who have exposed Hillary's corruption while she gets a free pass.

There is not a single Democrat in the entire party who has the guts or integrity to speak against the Clinton Corruption party.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> As usual with the leftist hypocrites, he only has outrage for those who have exposed Hillary's corruption while she gets a free pass.
> 
> There is not a single Democrat in the entire party who has the guts or integrity to speak against the Clinton Corruption party.


Perhaps not an unfair statement, but give voters some credit.

They realize they only have two choices, neither of which is a popular one.

They are holding their nose and pulling the lever for the least offensive choice.

At least that is what the pollsters tell us they are doing.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Perhaps not an unfair statement, but give voters some credit.
> 
> They realize they only have two choices, neither of which is a popular one.
> 
> They are holding their nose and pulling the lever for the least offensive choice.


I agree to a point.

Many people are holding their noses and choosing to vote for Trump as a "protest" vote hoping to help rid Washington of at least some of the corruption. Every time those in power ignore another one of her crimes, it only reaffirms to them that real change is needed. To many people, he is the least offensive choice for that very reason.

What has been overlooked so far is a lot of people, even those that don't like Trump, believe that Trump cares more about America than Hillary does. Love him or hate him, he loves America and wants it to succeed. No one can say the same about Hillary. Hillary only wants Hillary to succeed.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> As usual with the leftist hypocrites, he only has outrage for those who have exposed Hillary's corruption while she gets a free pass.


It's interesting to watch the power structure defend itself, with little regard for right and wrong, all the way up to and including Barack Obama. This is not just a leftist problem but it certainly includes the left.

The people in power are always right. When people who aren't in power challenge the people who are in power, they tend to go to jail. It's the way of the world.




bass player said:


> There is not a single Democrat in the entire party who has the guts or integrity to speak against the Clinton Corruption party.


You mean the made up bullshit that you've been spewing? Gee, I wonder why the party wouldn't shun her for that?

We know that whomever runs for the Democratic nomination after Hillary, in future elections, is going to have a ton of made up smear BS foisted on them. It's the MO of the Republican party.

The issues with Hillary have nothing to do with the psychotic garbage being smeared from the left. These issues are relentlessly foisted against Democratic candidates, disprove, and yet they remain in the minds of the Republican cult. You know... like yourself. No number of investigations or hearings that come up negative will clear her in your mind, bass player. That's clear. You've decided she is guilty and now you are spending your energy looking for evidence. It's a shame to see yourself and others throwing away valuable life energy but it's your choice.

I'm in favor of investigating Hillary or anyone. Where we differ is that, if the investigation is reasonably objective, I will accept the result and move on with my life.

In the case of Republicans investigating Hillary, I think the issues have been seen through.


----------



## olivaw

People mistakenly believe _where there's smoke, there's fire_. Republicans generate a lot of smoke around Hillary. Some start to believe there is something there. When you dig, there is usually very little there except opposition spin. Occam's razor. - Hillary has been exonerated every single time because she is innocent.

Re: Wikileaks - The ambassador tweeted about a lot more than the Democrats. Two samples. 



Michael McFaul said:


> Your claim to being independent would be more credible if you published stolen data about Putin & Trump. You have never done so.





Michael McFaul said:


> You published a cable reporting on a friend of mine recommending that US support Medvedev, not Putin. My friend, Nemtsov, is now dead.


http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ambassador-to-russia-going-after-wikileaks-in

He's right. Wikileaks has been manipulated by Putin to his own ends.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> He's right. Wikileaks has been manipulated by Putin to his own ends.


No doubt.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> As usual with the leftist hypocrites, he only has outrage for those who have exposed Hillary's corruption while she gets a free pass.


I am not sure Wikileaks exposed ANY Hillary corruption. And as a typical leftist, Ambassador McFaul used to advise President Bush on Russian policy.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> The issues with Hillary have nothing to do with the psychotic garbage being smeared from the left. These issues are relentlessly foisted against Democratic candidates, disprove, and yet they remain in the minds of the Republican cult. You know... like yourself. No number of investigations or hearings that come up negative will clear her in your mind, bass player. That's clear. You've decided she is guilty and now you are spending your energy looking for evidence. It's a shame to see yourself and others throwing away valuable life energy but it's your choice.




(note to bass player, nelley & wraphter) the above is lucid, clear & true. What you three have become in cmf forum are cartoon Oscar the Grudges who pop up from your trash cans to smear the above-mentioned psychotic garbage as best you can. 

the campaign hasn't worked, so now you've turned to insults. My worry is what this is doing to genuine small *c* conservatives. Once upon a time they had values of individual liberty that were dear to us, were cherished by us. Now the ugly alt-right extremists & their shocking accusations have become mob rule laughingstocks.

.


----------



## wraphter

Hillary lied to the American public.

Hillary said she wanted to put all her email accounts on one mobile phone. 
It came out she had 13 devices.

She said none of the emails were classified.
Comey said some were.
Then she said none were marked classified even though that is not the relevant condition.


She echoed the standard talking points that the Benghazi attack was because of the anti-Muslim video.
She told Chelsea that they were terrorists.

She said she never said the TPP was the gold standard for treaties.
She did.

She said to the FBI something like 39 times she never remembered.
Never remembered being briefed how to handle classified material.

Didn't know that (c) on an email meant classified.
O yeah.


She said she has one public position and one private position.

Hillary Clinton-- too big to jail.

One law for the elite and one law for the commoners.

As Jack Nicholson said in the movie 'A few Men'---"You can't stand the truth".

That movie also starred Demi Moore--a very poor actress.


P.S.

And when Barack Obama was in grade 3 and 4 in Indonesia he was called Barry Soetoro, his religion was listed as Islam on one school application and he went to the mosque with his step father and learned Muslim prayers.

The above perhaps explains why he he is reluctant to use military force in the Middle East.


----------



## olivaw

On a lighter note - it's Hillary's birthday tomorrow. 

Perhaps bass player and the sock puppets can set aside their rage and partisan spin long enough to sign the e-card. https://www.hillaryclinton.com/form...ocial&utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=201610251025


----------



## Spudd

wraphter said:


> As Jack Nicholson said in the movie 'A few Men'---"You can't stand the truth".


You can't HANDLE the truth!


----------



## wraphter

Spudd said:


> You can't HANDLE the truth!


I stand corrected.:tears_of_joy:


----------



## olivaw

Republican allegations of vote fraud are not new but *a new CNN/ORC poll shows improved confidence in the US election system.*


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> The above perhaps explains why he he is reluctant to use military force in the Middle East.


Maybe he's just a *****?

Anyone can see it's always a great idea to roll the military into the middle east. War is the universal problem solver.


----------



## sags

Trump may have committed insurance fraud.

He claimed $17 million in insurance for damages to his Florida property, that showed little evidence of any damage and his butler says the damage was a couple of trees and a few roof tiles. City officials say there were no permits issued and they would have known about that much construction and damage. Trump admits pocketing the money saying there is no legal requirement to reinvest in the property.

I am thinking the insurance company will want to have a conversation with their local adjuster and Mr. Trump.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/trump-took-17-million-in-insurance-for-damage-few-remember


----------



## Nelley

Scott Adams of Dilbert fame thinks you Crooked Hillary supporters are bullies and cowards-he is very convincing http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152293480726/the-bully-party


----------



## bass player

Hillary has to be actually convicted in a court of law for some to accept her guilt, yet Trump only needs unverified accusations levied against him for the very same people to declare him guilty on all counts.

You're all hypocrites.


----------



## bass player

Nelley said:


> Scott Adams of Dilbert fame thinks you Crooked Hillary supporters are bullies and cowards-he is very convincing http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152293480726/the-bully-party


Yup...the left will bully and attack anyone with an opposing viewpoint, but will call anyone who dares to fight back against their lies bullies.

Once again, they are full blown hypocrites.


----------



## Nelley

Here is a theoretical: Imagine if for whatever reason the MSM decided to do a full 180-start trashing Crooked Hillary and backing Trump-how long before Olivaw and the other monkeys start jumping off the Hillary train and on the Trump train-I would say no more than a couple weeks, maybe Humble could hold out for a month but I doubt it.


----------



## agent99

bass player said:


> Once again, they are full blown hypocrites.


Isn't it great that the US believes in democracy. Those "hypocrites" seem to outnumber "others" by what is it? 5-12% depending on who you believe. And their candidate is predicted to win. So why not give up this nasty thread? Isn't this a Canadian forum?


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Yup...the left will bully and attack anyone with an opposing viewpoint, but will call anyone who dares to fight back against their lies bullies.
> 
> Once again, they are full blown hypocrites.


Yeah, not like bass player. That guy never posts rage filled rants like the lefties do.


----------



## bass player

agent99 said:


> Isn't it great that the US believes in democracy. Those "hypocrites" seem to outnumber "others" by what is it? 5-12% depending on who you believe. And their candidate is predicted to win. So why not give up this nasty thread? Isn't this a Canadian forum?


Those who truly believe in democracy don't hire people like Bob Creamer for behind the scenes dirty work...


----------



## Nelley

agent99 said:


> Isn't it great that the US believes in democracy. Those "hypocrites" seem to outnumber "others" by what is it? 5-12% depending on who you believe. And their candidate is predicted to win. So why not give up this nasty thread? Isn't this a Canadian forum?


You picked the right name-reading your stuff it is easy to believe your IQ is double digit.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Here is a theoretical: Imagine if for whatever reason the MSM decided to do a full 180-start trashing Crooked Hillary and backing Trump-how long before Olivaw and the other monkeys start jumping off the Hillary train and on the Trump train-I would say no more than a couple weeks, maybe Humble could hold out for a month but I doubt it.


This is an interesting hypothesis.

What form would the trashing take? Would it be the kind of trashing you do, with landing aliens and such, or would it be more reasonable?

If more reasonable (ie: they could spend more time on how the DNC had it's thumb on the scale when Sanders ran against Hillary, etc.), I think they could make some pretty good inroads.

If they start reporting on murders, email, and whatever else that has been fully debunked but they keep pretending it's true, I think they would still make some inroads but significantly less.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Yeah, not like bass player. That guy never posts rage filled rants like the lefties do.


Hey Bubblehead: CNN just announced they are backing Trump and dumping Hillary-hurry-go turn on your boob tube!


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> This is an interesting hypothesis.
> 
> What form would the trashing take? Would it be the kind of trashing you do, with landing aliens and such, or would it be more reasonable?
> 
> If more reasonable (ie: they could spend more time on how the DNC had it's thumb on the scale when Sanders ran against Hillary, etc.), I think they could make some pretty good inroads.
> 
> If they start reporting on murders, email, and whatever else that has been fully debunked but they keep pretending it's true, I think they would still make some inroads but significantly less.


You are the closest thing to a landing alien I have met.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> This is an interesting hypothesis.
> 
> What form would the trashing take? Would it be the kind of trashing you do, with landing aliens and such, or would it be more reasonable?
> 
> If more reasonable (ie: they could spend more time on how the DNC had it's thumb on the scale when Sanders ran against Hillary, etc.), I think they could make some pretty good inroads.
> 
> If they start reporting on murders, email, and whatever else that has been fully debunked but they keep pretending it's true, I think they would still make some inroads but significantly less.


YUP-that email Conspiracy Theory has been fully debunked Einstein.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> YUP-that email Conspiracy Theory has been fully debunked Einstein.


Perhaps Congress should hold a hearing regarding the issue?


----------



## agent99

Nelley said:


> You picked the right name-reading your stuff it is easy to believe your IQ is double digit.


I noticed that you have NEVER posted anything on this site related to finance, investing or money. Never mind anything of value. Why not? Why are you here?

Insulting long time valuable members is not a character trait to be proud of. Doesn't take much of an IQ to do that.


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> Maybe he's just a *****?
> 
> Anyone can see it's always a great idea to roll the military into the middle east. War is the universal problem solver.


Always? I don't know about that but It seems that the world was rather more safe when Bush was president and invading Iraq than during Obama's tenure. I don't remember the threats and intimidation from the Russian tyrant. 
The Iranians halted their nuclear program in 2003 apparently.


The Doomsday Clock of The Atomic Scientists has moved from 5 minutes

to midnight during Bush's time to 3 minutes to midnight for Obambi.

The Chinese made him get out of the anus of the airplane.

Duterte cursed him in Tagalog.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> Always? I don't know about that but It seems that the world was rather more safe when Bush was president and invading Iraq than during Obama's tenure.


The world? Perhaps but not the people in the World Trade Center towers.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Scott Adams of Dilbert fame thinks you Crooked Hillary supporters are bullies and cowards-he is very convincing http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152293480726/the-bully-party


He also thinks Hillary is going to win.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> He also thinks Hillary is going to win.


So, is that why he said "Today I put Trump’s odds of winning in a landslide back to 98%"???


----------



## andrewf

He's got to be talking tongue in cheek if he's assigning 98% probability to a Trump landslide given the current polling.


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> He's got to be talking tongue in cheek if he's assigning 98% probability to a Trump landslide given the current polling.


I'm sure there is a way to use the Republican base to prove that level 4 parallel universes exist. It should be basic string theory.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> I'm sure there is a way to use the Republican base to prove that level 4 parallel universes exist. It should be basic string theory.


Science? What fresh hatred is this you are spewing?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Scott Adams of Dilbert fame thinks you Crooked Hillary supporters are bullies and cowards-he is very convincing http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152293480726/the-bully-party


Scott Adams blog is Rusty O'Tooles favourite site. Adams sometimes has a point to make ... but this entry is more of an angry rant. 



> Team Clinton has succeeded in perpetuating one of the greatest evils I have seen in my lifetime. Her side has branded Trump supporters (40%+ of voters) as Nazis, sexists, homophobes, racists, and a few other fighting words. Their argument is built on confirmation bias and persuasion. But facts don’t matter because facts never matter in politics. What matters is that Clinton’s framing of Trump provides moral cover for any bullying behavior online or in person. No one can be a bad person for opposing Hitler, right?


ETA: One of the news articles that set Adams off: http://www.salon.com/2016/10/24/dil...nald-trump-if-he-becomes-acts-too-hitler-ish/

Only 2 weeks to go. The election will be over and Republicans can get back to blaming each other for the world's problems.


----------



## new dog

wraphter said:


> Always? I don't know about that but It seems that the world was rather more safe when Bush was president and invading Iraq than during Obama's tenure. I don't remember the threats and intimidation from the Russian tyrant.
> The Iranians halted their nuclear program in 2003 apparently.
> 
> 
> The Doomsday Clock of The Atomic Scientists has moved from 5 minutes
> 
> to midnight during Bush's time to 3 minutes to midnight for Obambi.
> 
> The Chinese made him get out of the anus of the airplane.
> 
> Duterte cursed him in Tagalog.


I don't believe Russia or China were ready to face up to the US back in the early 2000's. Also we just came off 9/11 and the whole world was willing to go along with what Bush was selling at the time. Of course a nuclear war then would have destroyed the earth but I don't think Russia or China was thinking Bush was going to invade the entire middle east at the time.


----------



## olivaw

Another day, another high profile Republican endorses Hillary Clinton. 

Colin Powell says he's voting for Clinton



> Former Republican Secretary of State Colin Powell said Tuesday he'll vote for Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, a high-profile snub of his party's standard-bearer, Donald Trump.


----------



## agent99

olivaw said:


> Another day, another high profile Republican endorses Hillary Clinton.
> 
> Colin Powell says he's voting for Clinton


Good for Hillary. He also endorsed Obama twice, so not so much a high profile Republican any more?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Remember when I said Trump would win the popular vote but Hillary would be the next President? George Soros agrees with me and he owns the voting machines. See this interview with a Bloomberg reporter.

https://youtu.be/mr0fXwMr2ZQ


----------



## new dog

All is good Rusty it matters not how crooked everything is as long as the right person wins even if they are crooked and corrupt. Hillary is a women, democrat, criminal and gets funding from Soros the vote rigger, what is there not to like. For Hillary backers this is a dream come true.

In her winning speech she can say, "I would like to thank George Soros for the money and the vote rigging. I would also like to thank the FBI and everyone else that buried my criminality. And I would especially like to thank the media, CNN in particular for running the positive stories about me and attacking my opponent with everything they had. Finally, now I am clear to start wars, continue my corruption and kill people every where in the world."


----------



## mordko

^ minor problems with the claim:

- Soros does not own any voting machines. He never has. He knows someone who manufactures voting machines.
- Machines manufactured by someone who Soros knows won't be used in the general elections.
- There is exactly zero evidence of Clinton-favouring machines in a vote that hasnt taken place.

In summary, the theory is vile, wrong, libellous, stinks of the Protocols and entirely baseless. That is unless newdogs cockroaches in the head could be considered as sufficient justification for spewing utter BS.


----------



## new dog

Soros is an angel who out of the kindness of his heart spreads some of his hard earned money to Hillary so she can continue the good work as president. Lucky for me that I have cockroaches in my head because I heard cockroaches can survive nuclear fallout. 

Out of curiosity why does the mention of the name Soros wake you up at night? His fingers seem to be into everything so he gets the fame that goes with that.


----------



## mordko

^ I have a bit of a problem with fabrications and libel in general. More so when it's borrowing from the propaganda promoted by these nice people https://www.darkmoon.me/uploads/geldjudengott.jpg


----------



## Nelley

George Soros-Jewish
John Gotti-Italian
****** Bulger-Irish

Obviously George Soros is way more successful than the other two but basically these guys are the same person.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Remember when I said Trump would win the popular vote but Hillary would be the next President? George Soros agrees with me and he owns the voting machines. See this interview with a Bloomberg reporter.
> 
> https://youtu.be/mr0fXwMr2ZQ




Rusty when was this emaciated anorexic ever a Bloomberg reporter?

me i don't believe Bill Still was ever associated with bloomberg media in any way, let alone worked for them.

he's an alt-right christian evangelist commentator with what appears to be a serious eating disorder & evident reading and/or mental problems. He's reading abnormally from a teleprompter in a staccato monotone, like a small child who's being taught to read by lip-synching syllables.

the monotone is accompanied by a crudely lettered text. This isn't media, it's just another cheapio home basement video.


.


----------



## TomB19

new dog said:


> Out of curiosity why does the mention of the name Soros wake you up at night?


In my case, it doesn't.

In your case, it's due to the brainwashing you've received from the Republican cult.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> Rusty when was this emaciated anorexic ever a Bloomberg reporter?
> 
> me i don't believe Bill Still was ever associated with bloomberg media in any way, let alone worked for them.
> 
> he's an alt-right christian evangelist commentator with what appears to be a serious eating disorder & evident reading and/or mental problems. He's reading abnormally from a teleprompter in a staccato monotone, like a small child who's being taught to read by lip-synching syllables.
> 
> the monotone is accompanied by a crudely lettered text. This isn't media, it's just another cheapio home basement video.
> 
> 
> .


If you watched the whole video you would see that Still is commenting on an interview done by a Bloomberg reporter and, quite correctly, acknowledging them as his source. I will overlook the derogatory comments on his religion, talent, face, figure, and eating habits. What do you think of Soros saying Trump will win the popular vote but Clinton will win the election?

You take my little joke too literally. It is true that Soros does not own voting machines. They are owned by the Smartmatic company. Smartmatic chairman Mark Malloch-Brown sits on the board of Soros' Open Society Foundation. So obviously there is no connection.


----------



## mordko

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you watched the whole video you would see that Still is commenting on an interview done by a Bloomberg reporter and, quite correctly, acknowledging them as his source. I will overlook the derogatory comments on his religion, talent, face, figure, and eating habits. What do you think of Soros saying Trump will win the popular vote but Clinton will win the election?
> 
> You take my little joke too literally. It is true that Soros does not own voting machines. They are owned by the Smartmatic company. Smartmatic chairman Mark Malloch-Brown sits on the board of Soros' Open Society Foundation. So obviously there is no connection.


So you established the link between Soros and Smartmatic chairman.

All that's left is to demonstrate that:

- Smartmatic machines will be used in the general election (they will not)
- they have been rigged (they have not)
- Soros plotted the rigging.

Otherwise just admit that you are spreading vile conspiracies.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Otherwise just admit that you are spreading vile conspiracies.


lol!

This is the same logic that proves anyone who has ridden in a BMW is an anti-semite.


----------



## mordko

I googled for the claim that Soros predicted a landslide victory for Trump. Anyone with a brain cell knows it's a lie, but here is the proof http://www.snopes.com/george-soros-...-a-landslide-but-clinton-victory-a-done-deal/

He said the exact opposite and someone doctored the video. The Soros conspiracy is popular on the National Vanguard and other neonazi websites. You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> lol!
> 
> This is the same logic that proves anyone who has ridden in a BMW is an anti-semite.


This Nice strawman demonstrates that you have no logic at all.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> In my case, it doesn't.
> 
> In your case, it's due to the brainwashing you've received from the Republican cult.


No one is more brainwashed than the Crooked Hillary supporters. They believed that a "chance" meeting between Bill and the DOJ on an airport runway during an FBI "investigation" was so they could talk about grandkids. They believe her when she said an obscure YouTube video led to the organized attack at Benghazi. They believed her when she deleted and then scrubbed 33,000 emails that is was an innocent action.

Hillary supporters are the last people that should be lecturing on brainwashing...


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> lol!
> 
> This is the same logic that proves anyone who has ridden in a BMW is an anti-semite.


Let us follow the sheep logic here-a guy worth maybe 23 billion who openly brags about changing societies and countries through any means available to him is linked to voting machines in 16 states-NOTHING TO SEE HERE.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> I googled for the claim that Soros predicted a landslide victory for Trump. Anyone with a brain cell knows it's a lie, but here is the proof http://www.snopes.com/george-soros-...-a-landslide-but-clinton-victory-a-done-deal/
> 
> He said the exact opposite and someone doctored the video. The Soros conspiracy is popular on the National Vanguard and other neonazi websites. You should be ashamed of yourself.


Moronko: Snopes is only Moses coming down with the tablets to a sheep like yourself.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> Rusty when was this emaciated anorexic ever a Bloomberg reporter?
> 
> me i don't believe Bill Still was ever associated with bloomberg media in any way, let alone worked for them.
> 
> he's an alt-right christian evangelist commentator with what appears to be a serious eating disorder & evident reading and/or mental problems. He's reading abnormally from a teleprompter in a staccato monotone, like a small child who's being taught to read by lip-synching syllables.
> 
> the monotone is accompanied by a crudely lettered text. This isn't media, it's just another cheapio home basement video.
> 
> 
> .


To a braindead sheep like yourself it is important that someone like Ron Burgundy reads you the news-nice haircut, nice suit-a well spoken gentleman.


----------



## mordko

mordko said:


> So you established the link between Soros and Smartmatic chairman.
> 
> All that's left is to demonstrate that:
> 
> - Smartmatic machines will be used in the general election (they will not)
> - they have been rigged (they have not)
> - Soros plotted the rigging.
> 
> Otherwise just admit that you are spreading vile conspiracies.





Nelley said:


> Let us follow the sheep logic here-a guy worth maybe 23 billion who openly brags about changing societies and countries through any means available to him is linked to voting machines in 16 states-NOTHING TO SEE HERE.


Except that he isn't "linked" to voting machines and nor does he talk about promoting vote rigging. Quite the contrary, he is a misguided do-gooder who wants to promote democracy. 

That does not stop vile conspiracists, but then when did they need any evidence to support their Protocols inspired libel?


----------



## bass player

Soros is a "misguided do-gooder"?? Is it possible to be any more gullible? :hopelessness:


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Except that he isn't "linked" to voting machines and nor does he talk about promoting vote rigging. Quite the contrary, he is a misguided do-gooder who wants to promote democracy.
> 
> That does not stop vile conspiracists, but then when did they need any evidence to support their Protocols inspired libel?


This criminal has promoted democracy so well throughout Europe that the continent is almost going down for good.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> This criminal has promoted democracy so well throughout Europe that the continent is almost going down for good.


If anyone is a criminal it would be those who engage in libel.


----------



## Pluto

More allegations that Clinton foundation is corrupt. 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...is_corrupt_she_didnt_answer_the_question.html

Pointing this out doesn't mane I defend the the other flake.


----------



## sags

The Clinton Foundation is a classic example of..............do the ends justify the means.

As it turns out it doesn't matter. The Republicans allowed their right wing to take over the party and nominate a candidate who couldn't win.

Some said Obama couldn't govern. They obstructed him on anything he wanted to do. 

And yet, he has a 51% popularity rating which is extremely high for an outgoing President.

The "obstructors" are now fighting for their political lives, and some are going to get the boot.

The voters aren't as stupid as some politicians think they are.


----------



## sags

Every US Presidency in recent history has been deeply flawed.

With Kennedy and Johnson it was the Vietnam War. 

With Nixon it was the Vietnam War and Watergate.

With Reagan it was the deregulation that led to the financial collapse and rising debt.

With Carter it was the Iran hostages.

With the Bushes it was war in the ME.

With Clinton it was sex scandals and terrible free trade deals.

With Obama it was Obamacare and weakness when ISIS was beginning to form.

Trump and Clinton are both flawed, and their Presidencies will be flawed.

The question before Americans is............which of them will make the least damaging mistakes.

If experience is the best teacher..........the answer is Hillary Clinton.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It should be obvious but my posts to this thread were done with tongue firmly in cheek. For example the "debate boogaloo" and the rest were strictly for laughs. I point this out because some parties seem to be taking the whole thing too seriously. Remember, this is an American election. We can't even vote in it, and who the Americans elect does not concern us. So while it may be a matter of interest it is nothing to get worked up about. I find it astonishing that this thread has gone on for 369 pages, that must be a record.


----------



## sags

This election has given Canadians a wonderful opportunity to chuckle at our neighbor.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.......opine the special snowflakes in the great white north. We talk, we laugh......and we feel better about our own lives.

It is like when you back your rusted out piece of junk out of the driveway and your neighbors rusted out piece of junk is up on blocks.

We appreciate what we have just a little bit more.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I find it astonishing that this thread has gone on for 369 pages, that must be a record.


I think we've almost got the US election problem solved. Once we have it cleaned up and everyone agrees, we can move on to solving world peace.


----------



## Nelley

Wikileaks just exposed Obama's big lie about Crooked Hillary and her emails-in other news, the guy has a wife who was "shaken to the core" by Trump bragging-check out the lyrics to the big hits of the rappers this bubblehead idolizes:http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/10/michelle_obamas_promotion_of_misogyny_and_date_rape.html


----------



## Eclectic12

Rusty O'Toole said:


> ... Remember, this is an American election. We can't even vote in it ...


I can't, my co-worker can't ... as I understand it, both his wife and his kids can.
Just because it's a Canadian forum does not mean that some here can't vote.




Rusty O'Toole said:


> ... and who the Americans elect does not concern us. So while it may be a matter of interest it is nothing to get worked up about.


Interest us enough to interfere? ... no.

Concern us since the US is our next door neighbour as well as a large trading partner? ... yes.


Cheers


----------



## olivaw

There may be people on the forum who can vote but I doubt they are reading this thread to help them decide. It's strictly for entertainment purposes. 

To be fair, however, the sock puppets and bass have offered an informative insight into the mind of conspiracy cultists. Perhaps the thread should be considered infotainment.


----------



## bass player

Call it a conspiracy often enough and some people start to believe it, even when the person they are defending lies on camera for all to see. And some people think that if Hillary lied on TV, that it's Trump's fault


----------



## TomB19

I love the blame misdirection game. I look forward to one of the republitards blaming Hillary for going bankrupt five times.


----------



## Nelley

Here is a high profile left wing guy-Michael Moore-who parts company with you Crooked Hillary monkeys on the subject of Julian Assange and Wikileaks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8mtuBGjV2k


----------



## olivaw

Newt tried to bully Megyn Kelly of Fox News. How cute.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Biden threatens Trump and Trump responds:

""No," Biden responded. "I wish we were in high school. I could take him behind the gym. That's what I wish."


"I'd love that," Trump said of the idea of the two grown men tussling as if they were high schoolers.

"Oh, some things in life you could really love doing," Trump added.

Trump attacked Biden as a "Mr. Tough Guy when he's standing behind a microphone by himself."


Trump should challenge him to a mud wrestling match at the Las Vegas Trump International Hotel, with all proceeds going to charity. I'm sure it would be a sold out show.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump should challenge him [Joe Biden] to a mud wrestling match at the Las Vegas Trump International Hotel, with all proceeds going to charity. I'm sure it would be a sold out show.



finally. we are getting some solid, progressive, let's-move-on suggestions in this thread

.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Here is a high profile left wing guy-Michael Moore-who parts company with you Crooked Hillary monkeys on the subject of Julian Assange and Wikileaks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8mtuBGjV2k


That figures. Michael Moore is a nutter who thinks totalitarian Cuba is the example everyone should emulate.


----------



## agent99

Rusty O'Toole said:


> . I find it astonishing that this thread has gone on for 369 pages, that must be a record.


Can't help but agree. Seems some (or at least one) of those posting are here just for this thread! Check their other posts. Can't see the point.


----------



## olivaw

^You mean conspiracy Nelley. That's a sockpuppet ID.

This s a fun thread about the most bizarre election in US history. It's a change from discussing the status of our couch potato portfolios and our quest for a better HISA.


----------



## humble_pie

who are we putting nelley up against in the november mud wrestling match?


----------



## olivaw

^Bass player. Republicans always turn on each other after an electoral loss so it'll be a grudge match.


----------



## TomB19

Indeed. It will be full cannibal.

One of the problems with the Democratic party, imo, is they don't look inward enough. They are also owned by big corporate.

They were more successful at fending off Sanders than the Republican party was at fending off Trump.


----------



## new dog

TomB19 said:


> In my case, it doesn't.
> 
> In your case, it's due to the brainwashing you've received from the Republican cult.



Soros goes beyond party lines he is no good for anybody.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Indeed. It will be full cannibal.
> 
> One of the problems with the Democratic party, imo, is they don't look inward enough. They are also owned by big corporate.
> 
> They were more successful at fending off Sanders than the Republican party was at fending off Trump.


Everyone knows that the Democrats rigged the primaries for Hillary...you can call that success, I call it cheating.

Trump is running against the Democrats, the media, and most of the Republicans. And, in spite of all that opposition, and the non-stop attacks from all three, he's doing just fine. He is the only person who was able to take on the entire crooked establishment and not get crushed. And, that is why they are all in panic mode now...Trump has beat the odds and their tactics don't work any longer. Too many people have caught on.


----------



## agent99

olivaw said:


> ^You mean conspiracy Nelley. That's a sockpuppet ID.


Hadn't heard that term before. I guess in this case the sock fits


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Everyone knows that the Democrats rigged the primaries for Hillary...you can call that success, I call it cheating.


Nonsense. 
- The super delegate system has existed for a long time. All candidates have a level playing field. Hillary just happened to lock up a high number of them early. 
- Hillary won the popular vote in the primaries
- Hillary won the regular delegates

The provable irregularity is that Debbie Wasserman-Schultz received an email from a DNC employee which talked about Bernie's atheism hurting him in Ohio (If I recall correctly). The optics of it were terrible so Wasserman-Schultz resigned.


----------



## indexxx

agent99 said:


> Hadn't heard that term before. I guess in this case the sock fits


The classic fits also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll


----------



## mordko

Actually, here is the best fit: www.stormfront.org/forum/t1183386/

A neo-nazi chatboard and a Canadian money forum. A bunch of characters are indistinguishable. Sad. Not funny.


----------



## olivaw

Kind of a touching story ... *The Last Thing My Mother Did Before She Died Was Vote for Hillary Clinton*. 

Born in 1922 the woman fought for equality over 94 long years. Confused on her death bed about the date of the election, her last question to her daughter was ""Did Hillary make it?". It really brings home the importance of this election to many women. 



> "Did Hillary make it?" she asked once more, her words trailing, her voice almost inaudible. Looking at the fading light in her eyes, as her boney hand stretched out from her hospice bed, I considered how to respond. Do I tell her the truth? Hillary's poll numbers are looking positive, but the election is not in the bag.
> 
> "Yes, Mama," I told her. "Hillary made it."
> 
> It was what Marie Urbanski Whittaker had been waiting for her entire life. Within minutes, she was gone.


----------



## new dog

She got the worst women one can find to win it. I guess any women no matter who would do. Trump should have got a sex change and then he could win as a women.

Not a knock on the mother though this is what she wanted to see aside from this candidate.


----------



## new dog

Mordko what is sad is you are lumping Soros in with all Jews. Soros is bad, Jews in general are not, the link you showed is from a hate group who hate everyone. So you are the sad one and should give your head a shake.


----------



## carol palmer

Hillary Clinton is surely going to win, especially with the recent incidents having a big impact on the presidential race.


----------



## new dog

You are probably right carol but how did we get here?

Hillary has a free ride no matter what anyone says here and Trump has to face up to everything. Trump isn't any good either but he does have to answer for everything, where as Hillary gets a pass. When she doesn't get a pass she just blames Russia and moves on.


----------



## olivaw

^This is wrong. Hillary Clinton has been through years of attacks and opposition research


She tried to implement universal health care in the 90s. Republicans not only defeated her effort, they took pleasure in attacking and ridiculing her over it. 
She was publicly shamed over her husband's affairs. 
When she became Secretary of State the Republican congress launched numerous investigations, none of which found any evidence of criminal wrongdoing. 
She was subjected to 10 or 12 hours of grilling by republicans over her servers. Republicans asked the FBI to investigate and they declined to press charges
She has had to spend 4.5 hours stage debating an obnoxious and immature bu
Putin and Assange have been releasing a daily batch of emails stolen from her campaign manager in an attempt to embarrass her. 
Her family's foundation provides AIDs treatment, malaria vaccines and educational opportunities for children in developing countries. Her opponents use it to attack her by analyzing the source of donations. 
She and her husband released their taxes and they were examined in excruciating details by her opponents. 
Thousands of people have made up health conspiracy theories about her. 
There are myriad other bizarre theories. 

She's not the perfect candidate but nobody can reasonably argue that she has had a free ride. 

Comparatively, Trump has barely been vetted. We haven't seen his tax returns and reporters have barely scratched the surface on his many scandals. He just whines about it more.


----------



## wraphter

Bob Woodward says Clinton is corrupt.



> On Sunday, when Wallace asked Woodward if voters are right to be troubled by the Wikileaks revelations, Woodward said, "Yes. It's corrupt, it's a scandal and she didn't answer your question at all and she turned to embrace the good work that the Clinton foundation has done, and she has a case there. But the mixing of the speech fees, the Clinton foundation and actions by The State Department, which she ran, are all intertwined. It's corrupt. You can't just say it's unsavoury."


FBI Director Comey said she lacked the understanding of the email classifcation system so he could not charge her.



> He explained, any time the DOJ has prosecuted “a criminal case involving the mishandling of classified information” over the past 100-years they look at whether the person knew they were doing something unlawful.
> 
> As a result, Comey said there is no reason to differentiate between the two standards “gross negligence” and “extremely careless” conduct because that is not relevant to any determination in this case. The key question in this case, according to Director Comey, was, “Did [Clinton] know [she was] doing something that was unlawful?”
> 
> This is where things get interesting. One might think that someone who touts their government “experience” as much as Hillary Clinton does on the campaign trail would at least have a basic understanding of the classification system. That is not the case with Hillary Clinton, at least according to Director Comey’s testimony.
> 
> FBI Director Comey’s testimony confirmed his previous statement that “any reasonable person in Secretary Clinton’s position … should have known that an unclassified system was no place” to discuss classified material. * Despite this finding, however, the FBI Director said he could not establish that Hillary Clinton actually knew what she was doing was against the law. Thus, he did not believe she could be prosecuted for her conduct.*
> 
> A reasonable interpretation of that testimony leads to the conclusion* it was Clinton’s “lack of technical sophistication” about the classification system that saved her from prosecution. In other words, Clinton’s claim of ignorance about classified material, possibly combined with some forgetfulness, is what prevented Director Comey from recommending charges in this case.*
> 
> There is no getting around that determination, and what an utterly devastating assessment of a Hillary Clinton’s fitness to serve as President of the United States it is. The FBI Director may not have been able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Clinton knew she was breaking the law, but he made it clear that any one watching that she is not qualified to ever serve in government again.


So he didn't prosecute her because he didn't believe she understood what she was doing with the emails was illegal and wrong.Sort of farfetched ,don't you think? It's as if Comey was making up excuses for her. Now she has corrupted the FBI.

She is so ethically compromised . She will carry this taint into her presidency if she is elected. We have more scandals associated with her to look forward to. 

She has to some extent been deligitimized by these scandals.

The Wikileaks are hurting her. There is a constant stream of negative comments about her .
The polls are tightening.


----------



## wraphter

> Comparatively, Trump has barely been vetted. We haven't seen his tax returns and reporters have barely scratched the surface on his many scandals. He just whines about it more.


Not true. There have been numerous books and newspaper articles written about him, his personal life and his business bankruptcies and such. He craves publicity and always wants to be the centre of attention.. He was always the subject of gossip in New York,even phoning the columnists pretending to be his own pr agent. He is a well-documented public figure---the articles about his wild parties,his marriages etc.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

For those voters who are still on the fence, Amy Schumer Lena Dunham and Miley Cyrus have all promised to leave the US if Trump is elected.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> There have been numerous books and newspaper articles written about him [Donald trump], his personal life and his business bankruptcies and such. He craves publicity and always wants to be the centre of attention.. He was always the subject of gossip in New York,even phoning the columnists pretending to be his own pr agent. He is a well-documented public figure---the articles about his wild parties,his marriages etc.



wraph i thought you were pro-trump? what happened? you know the US has to choose one or the other.

after that the only route is impeachment. So then it would be pence or kaine. What a scary thought. Pence would rule from the bible (life is simple for christian fundamentalists) while kaine is inexperienced.

.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> For those voters who are still on the fence, Amy Schumer Lena Dunham and Miley Cyrus have all promised to leave the US if Trump is elected.


Is that a surprise? Crybaby leftists and their celebrity heroes always stamp their feet and cry when they don't get their way. But, not a single one of them will put their money where their mouth is and really leave.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Not true. There have been numerous books and newspaper articles written about him, his personal life and his business bankruptcies and such. He craves publicity and always wants to be the centre of attention.. He was always the subject of gossip in New York,even phoning the columnists pretending to be his own pr agent. He is a well-documented public figure---the articles about his wild parties,his marriages etc.


I don't think that he has been really vetted. A few books, parties, marriages and a history self promotion aren't the same thing. Why did Trump refuse to allow his staff to do oppo-research? Where are his tax returns? He doesn't have a single close friend - why? How much investor money did he lose in his bankruptcies? There are too many unanswered questions. He refuses to disclose much and when the media finds something he whines about media bias. 

We know a lot about Clinton, including how she reacts to personal attacks and threats by her opponent to jail her. She remains calm, patient and logical. The biggest complaint about her is that she is too cold and scripted - on the flip side, we know she has an abundance of self-discipline.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> wraph i thought you were pro-trump? what happened? you know the US has to choose one or the other.
> 
> after that the only route is impeachment. So then it would be pence or kaine. What a scary thought. Pence would rule from the bible (life is simple for christian fundamentalists) while kaine is inexperienced.
> 
> .



Hello hp,

When Trump first announced his candidacy,I supported him because I agreed with his position to close the Mexican border. I quickly turned against him because of his abuse of Megyn Kelly (and also Rosie O'donnell). I also did not agree with his favourable comments about the Russian tyrant and also not supporting NATO. 

When Trump was in Grade 8 he punched a teacher in eye. When he was 16 he went into Manhattan to buy some knives.
His father sent him to a military academy because he was a discipline problem. He said he could get away with shooting someone on Fifth Avenue. A couple days ago there was a tape on which he said he loved physical violence growing up.


Trump is TEOTWAWKI imho.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> We know a lot about Clinton, including how she reacts to personal attacks and threats by her opponent to jail her. She remains calm, patient and logical. The biggest complaint about her is that she is too cold and scripted - on the flip side, we know she has an abundance of self-discipline.


You keep forgetting the fact that she is corrupt and a proven liar. Perhaps you should try living in the real world for a change instead of creating your own version of reality...


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> We know a lot about Clinton...


I don't.

She has been a good politician because she was a senator for 8 years and yet not in the spotlight, during that time.

As best I can tell, she has politiced her way to the present day: Very carefully thought out decisions. Low profile. Talks but doesn't reveal details.

She has probably been grooming herself for the presidency.

On the other hand, Trump has been a loud mouthed *******. While that is a negative thing, we do know where he stands on any number of issues including fat chicks. lol.

... but seriously, it has been refreshing to hear Trump speak directly to issues. I'm not aware of another candidate who has so openly shared their thought process.

In this regard, Clinton has been extremely veiled and calculated. We know far less about her thought process than we do of Trump.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I don't.
> 
> She has been a good politician because she was a senator for 8 years and yet not in the spotlight, during that time.
> 
> As best I can tell, she has politiced her way to the present day: Very carefully thought out decisions. Low profile. Talks but doesn't reveal details.
> 
> She has probably been grooming herself for the presidency.
> 
> On the other hand, Trump has been a loud mouthed *******. While that is a negative thing, we do know where he stands on any number of issues including fat chicks. lol.


The Democrat supporters believe that Trump's locker room talk is worse than Hillary's long history of corruption and lies....this only proves that leftist ideology is both toxic and dangerous.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> The Democrat supporters believe that Trump's locker room talk is worse than Hillary's long history of corruption and lies....this only proves that leftist ideology is both toxic and dangerous.


No they don't.

They far more likely believe the long history of corruption and lies is made up by Republicans and will be smeared against every Democratic candidate that runs in the future, as it has been done in the past. Fiction. The misguided ravings of a group of lunatics.

The Benghazi hearing odometer is at 33 and yet there is no conviction. We keep hearing about new evidence that will break it wide open and yet it continues to be nothing but political grandstanding. The email scandal has been beaten to death both before and after the FBI investigation and declaration of lack of evidence of wrongdoing to prosecute.

... and yet guys like you continue to say, "... but look at how crooked she is! The system is rigged!"

How stupid do you have to be to believe that Republicans in the house or senate are too intimidated by Hillary to convict her of anything? They would dearly love to convict her of something... anything. If they could, they would.

Benghazi is 100% political grandstanding. The murders never happened except in the minds of the Republican base. The email scandal is not a scandal. It is the non-criminal mishandling of email during her term as secretary of state.

Let me tell you why Barack Obama has not been impeached. The reason is because he has not done anything impeachable. He was born in Hawaii and has been a decent enough president. He may have a different philosophy from you, he certainly has a different philosophy than I have, but he is an honorable man doing a good job.

The Republican establishment is feeding crazy to their base.... bass. You have uploaded all of it. It's bunk. It's ridiculous. Guilt by association is for people of low moral and ethical value. She had a meeting once in which George Soros attended? That makes her Soros' puppet? That line of thought is broken.

Rise above it, bass player. The republican party is a rotten apple. You've been fed a line of crazy and you've been made to look entirely ridiculous. You don't have to like the Democrats. You don't have to share the same philosophy as anyone. I just ask that you look deeper into what is being said. You are listening to a sooth sayer who is saying the equivalent to, "You will go on a long trip. You will be near water." Nothing is tangible. Nothing is proven. It's all mystery and hearsay. When evidence is presented to disprove the crazy, you dismiss it outright.

Corporations own America and they also own Canada. They own both parties in each country. Everything else is about who collects a salary while corporations run us into submission.


----------



## bass player

Yup, it's all a right wing conspiracy. 

The evil right forced Bill Clinton to meet secretly with the head of the FBI on a runway during Hillary's investigation. 
The evil right forced Hillary to delete 33,000 emails AFTER a request to turn them in.
The evil right forced Hillary to say on camera that "the Benghazi attack was caused by a YouTube video"
The evil right forced Hillary to lie on camera several times.

Yup...the evil right will stop at nothing to smear Hillary, lol :stupid:


----------



## andrewf

Thing is, Trump also has a long history of corruption and lies. So at best, it seems like a draw.


----------



## TomB19

andrewf said:


> Thing is, Trump also has a long history of corruption and lies. So at best, it seems like a draw.


No doubt. We know that any evidence to suggest Trump is not a corrupt liar is made up.

lol!


----------



## TomB19

Studying the Republican bass is a good start in understanding the mentality behind tying up women and throwing them into the river to see if they are a witch.

It made perfect sense to them. That is what makes thinking about it so depressing.


----------



## sags

Clinton is guilty of some bad judgement. She is guilty of some sketchy fundraising.........albeit for a good cause.

No major criminal activity and even if convicted the fines wouldn't be enough to justify the expense of a long trial.

Trump is simply unfit for the job and there is nothing that can solve that.

Hillary's heart is in the right place and always has been. Add her experience to her heart..........and she is the best choice.


----------



## TomB19

In order to believe the Republican mantra, as bass player and Nelley are attempting to prosecute on this forum, you would have to believe that Republicans are too scared of Hillary to convict her of wrongdoings in Benghazi. The FBI is too corrupt to prosecute Hillary for her mishandling of email. The federal election commission didn't bother to ask Barack Obama where he was from or look at his birth certificate. Police haven't made any effort to investigate over 100 murders by the Clintons. George Soros is running the USA, by virtue of being on the same committee as Barack Obama once was and evidence the two men were in the same meetings on multiple occasions.

... and they roll in here and call us stupid.

Thank you for the entertainment, gentlemen. lol!


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Hillary's heart is in the right place and always has been. Add her experience to her heart..........and she is the best choice.


I believe this to be true. I also believe Trump's heart is in the right place. Both are patriots.

... but I share your view on Trump being unfit, making Hillary the best choice.


----------



## SMK

wraphter said:


> I quickly turned against him because of his abuse of.....(and also Rosie O'donnell).


That was the first time I realized Trump was a very vicious and dangerous bully. It seems that what he needed growing up was psychiatric help, not discipline and military school.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Studying the Republican bass is a good start in understanding the mentality behind tying up women and throwing them into the river to see if they are a witch.
> 
> It made perfect sense to them. That is what makes thinking about it so depressing.


Drowning witches? Lol. If you're going to go that far back in history, let's not forget about these more recent issues:

13th amendment (abolish slavery): 100% Republican support, 23% Democrat support.

14th amendment (give citizenship to freed slaves): Republican 94%, Democrat 0%

15th amendment (right to vote for all): 100% Republican, 0% Democrat


----------



## sags

The best things Americans could do is rally around Hillary Clinton and demand the Republicans work with her to solve some of their problems.

Ted Cruz is already saying that Republicans should block any Supreme Court nominations from Clinton regardless of who they are.

Americans won't be happy with obstruction from the Republicans. 

If they don't cooperate to solve problems, a lot more of them will be gone in 2 years.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Americans won't be happy with obstruction from the Republicans.
> 
> If they don't cooperate to solve problems, a lot more of them will be gone in 2 years.


How do you figure that? Republicans have been blocking everything, shutting down government, and talking crazy for years and yet they are overwhelmingly re-elected.

What do you feel has changed?


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Drowning witches? Lol. If you're going to go that far back in history, let's not forget about these more recent issues:
> 
> 13th amendment (abolish slavery): 100% Republican support, 23% Democrat support.
> 
> 14th amendment (give citizenship to freed slaves): Republican 94%, Democrat 0%
> 
> 15th amendment (right to vote for all): 100% Republican, 0% Democrat


Are you for real? You're too entertaining to be a random accident.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> The best things Americans could do is rally around Hillary Clinton and demand the Republicans work with her to solve some of their problems.
> 
> Ted Cruz is already saying that Republicans should block any Supreme Court nominations from Clinton regardless of who they are.
> 
> Americans won't be happy with obstruction from the Republicans.
> 
> If they don't cooperate to solve problems, a lot more of them will be gone in 2 years.



Americans should not rally anywhere near Clinton and instead demand that congress and Hillary listen to the people and demand change. There was the bankers getting off in 2009, Clinton getting off from numerous allegations and problems, abuse of the constitution, complete control of the media and trade deals like the TPP that won't help the people in any way but will help corporations. 

Giving Clinton the green light or Trump for that matter will be the end of America.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Are you for real? You're too entertaining to be a random accident.


Why did you bring up drowning witches?


----------



## TomB19

I'm a big Frank Zappa fan.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Hillary's heart is in the right place and always has been. Add her experience to her heart..........and she is the best choice.


LOL. She's a septuagenarian blinded by greed. If her heart had "always" been in the right place, why has she been disliked for her entire political career?

And all those hundreds of millions of dollars donated to their foundation by countries like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, was done with nothing given in return? The "good cause" is nothing but a cover-up. A lot of good was done, but what else would you expect with more than 2 billion in donations? 

Out of the 2 most unpopular choices ever, she is the best choice.


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> Benghazi is 100% political grandstanding. The murders never happened except in the minds of the Republican base.


The murders absolutely happened.

Clinton repeated the Obama talking points that it was because of the anti-Muslim tape on Youtube.
She told her daughter Chelsea that the attack was done by terrorists.

She told the American public she only had one mobile phone.She had 13 devices.

She told the Benghazi committee that every single personal email that was deleted was read by her lawyers.
The lawyers only read the headers.

She told the committee that she had one server.
There were several servers.

The email scandal was discovered by the Benghazi committee.

Comey let her off the hook because he claimed she did not understand the email classification system.
He made excuses for her.

Bob Woodward said she was corrupt because of the intertwining of the foundation, pay for speeches and her job as Secretary of State.
Bob Woodward broke the Watergate scandal that brought down Nixon.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Drowning witches? Lol. If you're going to go that far back in history, let's not forget about these more recent issues:
> 
> 13th amendment (abolish slavery): 100% Republican support, 23% Democrat support.
> 
> 14th amendment (give citizenship to freed slaves): Republican 94%, Democrat 0%
> 
> 15th amendment (right to vote for all): 100% Republican, 0% Democrat


As a student of history, you might also observed that since then, the republicans and democrats largely switched bases.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> As a student of history, you might also observed that since then, the republicans and democrats largely switched bases.


Wrong. The Democrats now practice soft racism instead of outright racism...rather than treat everyone equally, they promote the false ideology that minorities can't compete in today's society without special help....and, of course, only the Democrats can provide that help.


----------



## wraphter

From Fox News: Behind the scene at the FBI Clinton email investigation



> After an initial collection of evidence and a round of interviews, agents and senior managers gathered in the summer of 2015 to discuss how to proceed. It was obvious to all that a prima-facie case could be made for espionage, theft of government property and obstruction of justice charges. The consensus was to proceed with a formal criminal investigation.
> 
> Six months later, the senior FBI agent in charge of that investigation resigned from the case and retired from the FBI because he felt the case was going “sideways”; that’s law enforcement jargon for “nowhere by design.”
> 
> ...........
> 
> Giacalone knew that without a grand jury, the FBI would be toothless, as it would have no subpoena power. He also knew that without a grand jury, the FBI would have a hard time persuading any federal judge to issue search warrants.
> 
> ...........
> 
> 
> As the investigation dragged on in secret and Donald Trump simultaneously began to rise in the Republican presidential primaries,* it became more apparent to Giacalone’s successors that the goal of the FBI was to exonerate Clinton, not determine whether there was enough evidence to indict her.* In late spring of this year, agents began interviewing the Clinton inner circle.
> 
> ..............
> 
> 
> A few determined agents were frustrated by Clinton’s professed lack of memory during her interview and her oblique reference to a recent head injury she had suffered as the probable cause of that. They sought to obtain her medical records to verify the gravity of her injury and to determine whether she had been truthful with them.* They prepared the paperwork to obtain the records, only to have their request denied by Director Comey himself on July 4.*
> 
> ..............
> 
> Then some agents did the unthinkable; they reached out to colleagues in the intelligence community and asked them to obtain Clinton’s medical records so they could show them to Comey. We know that the National Security Agency can access anything that is stored digitally, including medical records. These communications took place late on July 4.
> 
> When Comey learned of these efforts, he headed them off the next morning with his now infamous news conference, in which he announced that Clinton would not be indicted because the FBI had determined that her behavior, though extremely careless, was not reckless, which is the legal standard in espionage cases.
> 
> ...............
> 
> *Three months later -- and just weeks before Clinton will probably be elected president -- we have learned that President Barack Obama regularly communicated with Clinton via her personal email servers about matters that the White House considered classified. That means that he lied when he told CBS News that he learned of the Clinton servers when the rest of us did.*



There was a prima facie case for espionage ,theft of govt property etc.

The investigation went sideways for 6 months because they didn't convene a grand jury to get subpeonas. 

Clinton said she couldn't remember because of head injuries.
Comey wouldn't let the agents get her medical records.

Comey made his announcement on July 5th,to stop the investigation.

Obama emailed her on her private server about classified matters.He lied when he said he found out about it from the news like everyone else.

Clinton was exonerated by Comey for political reasons, perhaps even to protect Obama.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Bob Woodward broke the Watergate scandal that brought down Nixon.



did woodward really succeed in the end though? as far as any of us know, Nixon died surrounded by deep respect from americans of all parties. Tricky Dick's name will live on in american history long after woodward, bernstein & watergate have faded.

bostonians re-elected mayor Curley to office several times, even while curley was doing time in jail. The more curley was charged, the more boston loved him.

tammany hall thrives in american culture. Chicago & louisiana are acronyms for boss mayors & despotic pols. What else is new.

.


----------



## new dog

Here is a hidden video that sunk Mitt Romney's campaign back in 2012. Zero hedge also mentions how the corrupt mainstream media handled it at the time.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...s-who-was-really-behind-mitt-romneys-47-video

I know other forum buddies are more up on this then I am, so it would be interesting on what they think of this.


----------



## humble_pie

.

re the wikihacked e-mails: tame stuff. Nothing unexpected, other than the fact that chelsea clinton is more of a fluffhead than one would have imagined when it comes to running the clinton foundation.

the new york times delivers a balanced view of e-mails - with extracts - sent by aides to former president bill clinton, by aides to hillary clinton & by former first daughter chelsea.

not only is there nothing earth-shaking, there's not even anything interesting. All we see is a bunch of high-strung ivy league hothouse mandarins gossiping together on how to get along with their friends. Even campus frat houses talk more mature than these e-mails.

of the lot, hillary's current campaign chief bill podesta comes across as by far the most efficient.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/27/u...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> The murders absolutely happened.


I believe you're referencing the attack on the consulate. For sure, there was a coordinate attack and it was nasty.

I was referring to the email chains going around that explain Bill and Hillary have literally murdered over 100 people and have gotten away with it because of a conspiracy. lol!


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Wrong. The Democrats now practice soft racism instead of outright racism...rather than treat everyone equally, they promote the false ideology that minorities can't compete in today's society without special help....and, of course, only the Democrats can provide that help.


What? lol!


----------



## TomB19

By the way, I do not believe all Republicans are racist. I also don't believe that Democrats are free of racism.

... but if you're a racist person, you are vastly more likely to take refuge in the Republican party where your ideas and views will be far more easily accepted.

It's a trend, not an absolute.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> Is that a surprise? Crybaby leftists and their celebrity heroes always stamp their feet and cry when they don't get their way. But, not a single one of them will put their money where their mouth is and really leave.


Even more surprising (not) is that none of them ever want to move to a third world country, a communist country or Mexico. They all want to come to Canada.


----------



## TomB19

... and yet we are two of those three things.


----------



## sags

_So do we honor our nation's Presidents, that even after they retire from office and from then on they are protected by.....the Secret Service.

It is more than just an honor....there is always the lurking threat of bodily harm to a former President. 

Why one former President was considered so vulnerable to kidnapping that his bodyguards kept him moving all the time....kept him moving.

I mean in the years after this President had left the White House he was actually physically relocated on the orders of those assigned to protect him, relocated more than a dozen times.

Let me tell you the rest of the story.

Now he was no longer the President of the United States and yet his extraordinary vulnerability was a source of ongoing concern. In the first place he was a highly visible former President. When he left Washington he did not travel directly home. He made personal appearances in ten major cities....Baltimore and Harrisburg, Philadelphia and New York City, Albany, Buffalo, Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis, and Chicago. Some folks said he was just too accessible to the general public. They said that one of these days, if his bodyguards were not careful, this ex-President was going to be kidnapped.

Well it was a valid warning. 

Already there were rumblings in the criminal community that such a Presidential kidnapping might be attempted. In response, the former President's bodyguards adopted what they called the moving target theory, that kidnappers would be less likely to choose an unpredictable prey if they were not sure where he was going to be on any specific date...indeed, in the entire decade...ten years following his departure from Washington, this former President actually relocated four times.

And then when he was eleven years out of office, it happened.

Six men conspired to kidnap the former President. Prospective ransom....$200,000. They almost succeeded.

They were actually physically, bodily, carrying away our ex commander in chief. They might have disappeared into the night... had one of the men assigned to guard the former President not interfered and the conspirators were captured, and tried and imprisoned, although as you can imagine the Presidential bodyguards never quite got over that brush with calamity.

So as I say, our former Chief Executive was relocated no fewer than eight times thereafter, maybe more but no fewer than eight. Remember they were trying to keep all those relocations secret and may even have deceived history once or twice, so he could have been moved more than I am telling you, but after all how much of what you just heard can be found in any history book, for the ex-President we have been discussing...... left Washington feet first.

He made all those subsequent personal appearances from a box. He was shot out of office. His bodyguards were literally guarding his body. Guarding it from grave robbers for thirty six years after his death. They moved him more than a dozen times, which makes the body of Abraham Lincoln the liveliest corpse there ever was.

And now you know the rest of the story.

RIP..........Paul Harvey.


_


----------



## s123

SMK said:


> LOL. She's a septuagenarian blinded by greed. If her heart had "always" been in the right place, why has she been disliked for her entire political career?
> 
> And all those hundreds of millions of dollars donated to their foundation by countries like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, was done with nothing given in return? The "good cause" is nothing but a cover-up. A lot of good was done, but what else would you expect with more than 2 billion in donations?
> 
> Out of the 2 most unpopular choices ever, she is the best choice.



It's obvious they are influenced by those enormous donations.

- “Billionaires Have Basically Bought The Government”: DOZENS Of US Politicians Admit That Money Owns Politics
https://csglobe.com/billionaires-ba...ens-us-politicians-admit-money-owns-politics/

“People tell me all the time that our politics in Washington are broken and that multi-millionaires, billionaires and big corporations are calling all the shots. …It’s hard not to agree.” —*Russ Feingold, three-term Democratic Senator from Wisconsin, in 2015, announcing he’s running for the Senate again.

“American democracy has been hacked. … The United States Congress … is now incapable of passing laws without permission from the corporate lobbies and other special interests that control their campaign finances.” —*Al Gore, former Vice-President, in his 2013 book, “The Future.”

“You have to go where the money is. Now where the money is, there’s almost always implicitly some string attached. …*It’s awful hard to take a whole lot of money from a group you know has a particular position then you conclude they’re*wrong [and] vote no.” — Vice-President Joe Biden,*2015.



- Which Presidential Candidates Are Winning the Money Race
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/election-2016-campaign-money-race.html?_r=1


----------



## Nelley

An interesting thing about this election is no matter who wins-the winner is going to be the most hated US President ever-right from the get-go-no honeymoon period at all-it will be really interesting if there is a lot of credible evidence that Crooked Hillary stole the election-lets say a similar situation to the James Comey FBI-Lynch DOJ scam-and if it looks clearly like a steal I don't think Trump will go quietly away-he is going to remind EVERYBODY they stole it-and about half the country will be with him-one thing about Trump-this guy has got BRASS BALLS-that is for sure.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> By the way, I do not believe all Republicans are racist. I also don't believe that Democrats are free of racism.
> 
> ... but if you're a racist person, you are vastly more likely to take refuge in the Republican party where your ideas and views will be far more easily accepted.
> 
> It's a trend, not an absolute.


LOL-you just typed a blatantly racist statement yet you don't consider yourself a racist-do you have a special exemption?


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I believe you're referencing the attack on the consulate. For sure, there was a coordinate attack and it was nasty.
> 
> I was referring to the email chains going around that explain Bill and Hillary have literally murdered over 100 people and have gotten away with it because of a conspiracy. lol!


So your point is that if Crooked Hillary has only had say 10 murdered instead of 100 that is OK? Newsflash Einstein-murdering even ONE person is against the law.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> By the way, I do not believe all Republicans are racist. I also don't believe that Democrats are free of racism.
> 
> ... but if you're a racist person, you are vastly more likely to take refuge in the Republican party where your ideas and views will be far more easily accepted.
> 
> It's a trend, not an absolute.


Not so fast. You might want to look at this before you decide the Republicans have a monopoly on racism. With the colors reversed, this could have been George Wallace in Alabama in the sixties.

http://reason.com/blog/2016/10/26/video-uc-berkeley-protesters-built-a-hum

In case you don't get it... Alabama and Berkeley have been Democrat strongholds since forever. They are the only places I know of where protesters turned out to block students from entering a school because they were the wrong color. No Republican can make that statement.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> An interesting thing about this election is no matter who wins-the winner is going to be the most hated US President ever-right from the get-go-no honeymoon period at all


Republicans claim that every democratic president is the most hated. They complained that Obama was more awful than Bill Clinton. They will complain that Hillary is more awful than Obama. They will complain the next Dem president after Hillary will be more awful than Hillary.

No point worrying about what people think of Trump. He's toast.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Wrong. The Democrats now practice soft racism instead of outright racism...rather than treat everyone equally, they promote the false ideology that minorities can't compete in today's society without special help....and, of course, only the Democrats can provide that help.


So, where did all the southern democrats go?


----------



## indexxx

TomB19 said:


> I'm a big Frank Zappa fan.


Yeah, but the ship's too late!
>>____^__


----------



## indexxx

humble_pie said:


> d
> 
> bostonians re-elected mayor Curley to office several times, even while curley was doing time in jail. The more curley was charged, the more boston loved him.
> 
> 
> .


Yep- and look at Rob Ford- no disrespect to his memory but the guy was a total mess yet loved by the right. Would he make a good president too?


----------



## indexxx

TomB19 said:


> ... and yet we are two of those three things.


How are we any of those things?


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Republicans claim that every democratic president is the most hated. They complained that Obama was more awful than Bill Clinton. They will complain that Hillary is more awful than Obama. They will complain the next Dem president after Hillary will be more awful than Hillary.


Democratic presidents from now on.How? Stack the deck by allowing unlimited Hispanic immigrants to come in from Mexico, who will increase the ranks of the Democratic voters.

Explaining Why Minority Births Now Outnumber White Births




> The nation’s racial and ethnic minority groups—especially Hispanics—are growing more rapidly than the non-Hispanic white population, fueled by both immigration and births. This trend has been taking place for decades, and one result is the Census Bureau’s announcement today that non-Hispanic whites now account for a minority of births in the U.S. for the first time.
> 
> ,,,,,,,
> 
> The bureau reported that minorities—defined as anyone who is not a single-race non-Hispanic white—made up 50.4% of the nation’s population younger than age 1 on July 1, 2011.
> 
> ..........
> 
> *The long-term result of these changes among younger age groups is that non-Hispanic whites are projected to become a minority of the population (47%) by 2050, according to Pew Research Center population projections. (Census Bureau projections say the change will occur in 2042). *


Barack takes his revenge on ****** who doesn't even know what is happening.
The white fertility rate is below replacement.
The non-white fertility rate is above replacement.


----------



## mrPPincer

wraphter said:


> Democratic presidents from now on.How? Stack the deck by allowing unlimited Hispanic immigrants to come in from Mexico, who will increase the ranks of the Democratic voters.
> 
> Explaining Why Minority Births Now Outnumber White Births
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barack takes his revenge on ****** who doesn't even know what is happening.
> The white fertility rate is below replacement.
> The non-white fertility rate is above replacement.


Wrong forum. You're looking for KKK-R-US


----------



## olivaw

deleting my response to wraphter - MrPPincer's response was too perfect.


----------



## wraphter

My source is the Pew Research Center,a reputable source. Typical name calling and emotional response because you can't cope with any argument that violates your political correctness.

I heard Jose Ramos of Univision say something similar on CNN.
I heard Bill Clinton say that whites are becoming a minority in California.

If you can't deal with the facts,that's your problem.

Call out the politically correct thought police!!

Right from the beginning of the campaign Trump talked about Mexican immigration and he won the Republican nomination. It's the whites that are voting for him, not the minorities. He exploited the problem of immigration and it is a realistic fear.

Is the US census racist? Because they say the same thing.


----------



## wraphter

538 divides the electorate into 5 groups

non-college educated whites, college educated whites,black, hispanic/latino and asian/other.

Call out the reactionary thought police.


----------



## mrPPincer

So what does that tell us then?
In regards to the republican recent model and the republican current model?

Maybe time to do a total rebuild?


----------



## olivaw

On the right, some Republican supporters are calling for revolution if Hillary wins. 

On the left, a vandal destroyed Trump's Hollywood Walk of fame star. 

Proof that neither party has a monopoly on violent morons.


----------



## wraphter

mrPPincer said:


> So what does that tell us then?
> In regards to the republican recent model and the republican current model?
> 
> Maybe time to do a total rebuild?


It tells us that the trend is against the Republicans.



> The long-term result of these changes among younger age groups is that non-Hispanic whites are projected to become a minority of the population (47%) by 2050, according to Pew Research Center population projections. (Census Bureau projections say the change will occur in 2042).


On the way to 2050 the part of the electorate that is non-Hispanic whites will get smaller. This is the sector that votes majority Republican. So they will have a difficult time getting elected. 

Obviously I don't know if the Obama administration kept the Mexican border open to bring in more Democratic voters.
I was just being facetious.

Trump is a demagogue who skillfully exploited the immigration problem. But it is a real problem and its not going to disappear.

The French in Quebec wanted to be 'maitre chez nous' . They wanted to control their own destiny. 
The white population of the US is going to wake up one morning and find themselves in the minority with very little control of their destiny.


----------



## mrPPincer

^Waking up can be a good thing.


----------



## olivaw

people of different skin tones will share control of their destiny. It's all good.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> So your point is that if Crooked Hillary has only had say 10 murdered instead of 100 that is OK? Newsflash Einstein-murdering even ONE person is against the law.


She murdered 10 people? Wow.

This is your opportunity. All you have to do is produce some evidence of any kind, pass it along to law enforcement, and the investigation should curtail her chances in the election. You could be a hero!


----------



## mrPPincer

TomB19 said:


> She murdered 10 people? Wow.
> 
> This is your opportunity. All you have to do is produce some evidence of any kind, pass it along to law enforcement, and the investigation should curtail her chances in the election. You could be a hero!


Conspiracy Nelley :stupid::fatigue::hopelessness:


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> Conspiracy Nelley :stupid::fatigue::hopelessness:


He is going to pull this election out of the fire for The Donald. If he provides any evidence at all, the investigation will skew opinion away from Hillary. The only reason he could possibly have to not bring forward evidence is if he is also part of the conspiracy.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> people of different skin tones will share control of their destiny. It's all good.


Be careful the muslim side is extremely dangerous and Europe and Sweden are being destroyed by them. I am not against good people coming to this country but the democrats are dangerous as they open the doors to get the future votes. The future votes are to their advantage obviously but it comes with a price.


----------



## mrPPincer

new dog said:


> *Be careful* the muslim side is *extremely dangerous* and Europe and Sweden are being destroyed by them. I am not against good people coming to this country but the democrats are dangerous as they open the doors to get the future votes. The future votes are to their advantage obviously but it comes with a price.


vvv Jesus Camp vvv


----------



## olivaw

Big news for Trump fans and sock puppets.

*The Yale Record Does Not Endorse Hillary Clinton*



> In its 144-year history, The Yale Record has never endorsed a Democratic candidate for president. In fact, we have never endorsed any candidate for president. This is, in part, due to our strong commitment to being a tax-exempt 501(c)3 organization, which mandates that we are “absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office.”
> 
> This year’s presidential election is highly unusual, but ultimately no different: The Yale Record believes both candidates to be equally un-endorsable, due to our faithful compliance with the tax code.
> 
> *In particular, we do not endorse Hillary Clinton’s exemplary leadership during her 30 years in the public eye. We do not support her impressive commitment to serving and improving this country—a commitment to which she has dedicated her entire professional career. Because of unambiguous tax law, we do not encourage you to support the most qualified presidential candidate in modern American history, nor do we encourage all citizens to shatter the glass ceiling once and for all by electing Secretary Clinton on November 8.*
> 
> The Yale Record has no opinion whatsoever on Dr. Jill Stein.
> 
> —The Editorial Board of The Yale Record


*The Yale Record is the humour magazine of Yale - the ivy league school. 

:eagerness:


----------



## new dog

mrPPincer said:


> vvv Jesus Camp vvv


I think you need a nice vacation to Sweden to enjoy the wonderful migrants for yourself. I am sure there is nobody here that wants that sort of enjoyment in Canada except for those who just have their head in the sand and think that everyone is good.


----------



## olivaw

^Perhaps it is you who needs to visit Sweden. You might come to understand that you've been told the equivalent of campfire scary stories.


----------



## SMK

new dog said:


> I am not against good people coming to this country but the democrats are dangerous as they open the doors to get the future votes. The future votes are to their advantage obviously but it comes with a price.


Can you anywhere really separate multiculturalism from politics? On the issue of Swedish immigration, that country is full of problems indeed.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/swedens-ugly-immigration-problem/article26338254/comments/


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> I think you need a nice vacation to Sweden to enjoy the wonderful migrants for yourself. I am sure there is nobody here that wants that sort of enjoyment in Canada except for those who just have their head in the sand and think that everyone is good.



dogcom the above is not your first anti-refugee comment so i would like to speak up at long last. 

first of all, i'm wondering if you have ever visited sweden? lately? what did you observe there first-hand? are you perhaps downloading too much lurid folklore from zerohedge, breitbart, ezra levant, the rebel & other neo krypto rightwing doomcriers?

a while ago, dog, you put up a post saying that canada will only tolerate the new syrian refugees if they adapt quickly to become exactly like us. 

i'm late with this reply, but i imagine you will nevertheless permit me to say that i & countless other canadians do *not* want new canadians to become exactly like us. What we want is the opposite, we want the diversity & the richness of foreign cultures.

we have to rely on our police, military & justice systems to control & neutralize criminal elements. Please keep in mind that these are found equally among old-root canadian communities as well as among new canadians. 

when i read anti-migrant racist comments such as the above, i can't help but worry how frightened our recent syrian refugees must feel when they read or hear such remarks. They came to canada to be safe. Our first duty as hosts is to be hospitable. So far, in canada, i have barely heard of any trouble at all, save & except for the above-mentioned neo-nazi "media."

as for migrants in europe, might i ask you how it is that your oh-so-beloved russia never offers to accept any middle eastern refugees ...

.


----------



## new dog

Because they are smart.

Realistically bringing in a few is not the end of the world but we certainly don't want to much of that diverse culture from what I can see. Rusty I believe pointed out that when they come in they can open the flood gates to their relatives and such which would not be good if too many come in. Europe from what I can see is toast and the criminals are going nowhere and the left covers it up where they can. In the US Hillary would love to really diversify the culture for future votes and destroy America to the point of civil war I would think.

I am a Canadian first and would like to keep my country good and strong for myself and for the generations of my family that follows. I am not interested in experimenting and taking a big chance with my grandchildren's future. Maybe I am the only one who feels this way but this is how I see it.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

If you like diversity you are going to get it, and how. Some of Trudeau's top advisers dream of the day Canada's population of 36 million will be swamped by 54 million newcomers. They want a population of 100 million by 2100. As reported by that well known right wing conspiracy rag, the Toronto Star.
https://www.thestar.com/business/20...key-advisers-want-100m-canadians-by-2100.html

Of course openness and diversity demands that we do not vet these newcomers in any way, and accept all comers without judging their fitness to be productive Canadian citizens. We can expect them to bring with them the ideas and ways of life that made their home lands what they are, and preserve them here. And of course on compassionate grounds to sponsor their relatives especially those that are old, sick and in need.

If you want an idea of what this will look like visit some of Toronto's ethnic areas. Toronto is now 38% first generation immigrants so take Toronto and double it.

If you are too far from Toronto get a copy of the Toronto Sun and look at the crime news. See how seldom you see a white face, and when you do it is one with a Russian or Italian name.


----------



## SMK

Obviously balanced immigration consisting of more than just numbers is important. The problem, though not so much in Canada, is that some immigrants don't want to be Canadians, as in they don't accept nor respect our democracy, traditions and laws. Those are the ones that should be kept out and majority of Canadians seem to be in agreement.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...ur-screening-immigrant-values-poll-shows.html


----------



## tygrus

While I am not supportive of 100 million new immigrants, I am generally supportive of a marginal increase in our current levels with highly targeted selection and placement. That means immigrants apply and are vetted in that process and encouraged to live in places other than just toronto through sponsors. On top of that, they would have to complete an integration course including english language and culture instruction. It cant just be a dump and hope strategy.

We need to check our fears a little bit. I mean Australia was a penal colony and it didnt breed generations of criminals. If done right, our modern culture will wash over any stone age beliefs. Thats the theory anyway.


----------



## tygrus

We also need to be cautious. These economist egg heads are the ones that brought us many globalization schemes that didnt pan out. Just adding bodies to a country doesnt ensure economic prosperity. There has to be jobs and business for them to work in and we dont have enough of that for a lot more people right now. Plus if automation takes hold and we continue offshoring, there could be a lot of people with nothing to do.

We have a million indigenous people outside the culture and workforce. Maybe we should start integrating them first before we add more people.


----------



## Spudd

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you want an idea of what this will look like visit some of Toronto's ethnic areas. Toronto is now 38% first generation immigrants so take Toronto and double it.


According to Google, Toronto is 46% first-generation immigrants, which is more like what I thought (I had the number 50% in my mind, so when you said 38 I thought it was low). I used to live in Toronto, and the diversity is not an issue. Occasionally you might run into a shopkeeper who doesn't speak very good English, but aside from that, I never felt like it was a problem for me or anyone I knew. Based on crime statistics maybe there is more crime but it would be hard to separate that from the normal big city crime vs small town crime rates, I would imagine. Yes, you see lots of people who aren't white, but so what?


----------



## tygrus

Go watch the movie gangs of new york to see what the first crops of immigrants got up to when they arrived. What about the slave traders in the south and the outlaws of the west. Lots of 'bad hombres' around back then.


----------



## Argonaut

I don't think immigration is a problem in general. I actually think the process is far too onerous for even educated professionals coming from "desirable" countries like those in Europe. But I do agree that immigration should be cautious with respect to people that would conflict with Canadian values. i.e. those who practice Sharia Law. If the floodgates open these people will have significant voting power. That is what I think the real motive is for leftist politicians. More votes.


----------



## wraphter

It's not over. FBI will re-open investigation into Clinton's emails and server.



> The FBI will investigate whether additional classified material is contained in emails sent using Hillary Clinton’s private email server while she was secretary of state, FBI Director James Comey informed congressional leaders Friday.
> 
> The announcement appears to restart the FBI’s probe of Clinton’s server, less than two weeks before the presidential election, an explosive development that could shape the campaign’s final days
> 
> Comey said that the FBI had, in connection with an “unrelated case,” recently “learned of the existence of emails that appear to be pertinent to the Clinton investigation.”
> 
> Comey indicated that he had been briefed on the new material yesterday. “I agreed that the FBI should take appropriate investigative steps designed to allow investigators to review these emails to determine whether they contain classified information, as well as to assess their importance to our investigation,” he wrote.


----------



## Argonaut

All the vast right-wing conspiracies I've been hearing lately have been coming true. Hillary is going down. There's big stuff in these emails, folks. Big league.


----------



## SMK

I always thought the best was being saved for last, but she'll be cleared just in time, let's hope.


----------



## new dog

Hopefully the FBI will do its job, which is look the other way and clear her. She is to important and needs to wreck the country and give whatever is left to the 1 percent. Also the inner cities need someone who will talk the good talk while doing nothing, outsourcing and shipping whatever is left of their jobs. Finally we need someone to bring the nut cases into the country so they can blow things up and shoot up places. The FBI knows this and must clear her so she can get the good work done.


----------



## olivaw

The investigation into Anthony Weiner's computers uncovered some new Huma emails. No information yet on what, if anything, has been found but Comey wants the Clinton Server team to investigate.


----------



## TomB19

Argonaut said:


> All the vast right-wing conspiracies I've been hearing lately have been coming true. Hillary is going down. There's big stuff in these emails, folks. Big league.


I'm going to go ahead and quote this for posterity. lol!


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> i'm late with this reply, but i imagine you will nevertheless permit me to say that i & countless other canadians do *not* want new canadians to become exactly like us. What we want is the opposite, we want the diversity & the richness of foreign cultures.
> .



Cultures? (music, food, language, literature, etc.) Sure. Values? Hell no. Western values are what has made this country successful and stable.

Multiculturalism is fine when it comes to culture. Values are non-negotiable. None of this 'who am I to judge' moral bankruptcy on treatment of women, sexual minorities, respect for science & reason, freedom of speech, etc.


----------



## Argonaut

Hillary on tape talking about rigging Palestinian elections.

http://observer.com/2016/10/2006-au...clinton-proposing-rigging-palestine-election/

A bit more provocative than talking about grabbing puss, or should be anyway. I think it's her time for a torrent of bad news.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Cultures? (music, food, language, literature, etc.) Sure. Values? Hell no. Western values are what has made this country successful and stable.
> 
> Multiculturalism is fine when it comes to culture. Values are non-negotiable. None of this 'who am I to judge' moral bankruptcy on treatment of women, sexual minorities, respect for science & reason, freedom of speech, etc.


Wow Andrewf-we agree for once.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The investigation into Anthony Weiner's computers uncovered some new Huma emails. No information yet on what, if anything, has been found but Comey wants the Clinton Server team to investigate.


HAHAHA-gotta be pretty bad if bagman Comey can't sweep it under the rug.


----------



## Nelley

Uh oh-looks like some of the oligarchs are starting to turn on Crooked Hillary-the Wall Street Journal calls the Clintons "Grifters-in-Chief" http://www.wsj.com/articles/grifters-in-chief-1477610771


----------



## wraphter

John Podesta,Clinton's campaign manager issues a statement:



> Upon completing this investigation more than three months ago, FBI Director Comey declared no reasonable prosecutor would move forward with a case like this and added that it was not even a close call. In the months since, Donald Trump and his Republican allies have been baselessly second-guessing the FBI and, in both public and private, browbeating the career officials there to revisit their conclusion in a desperate attempt to harm Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign.
> 
> FBI Director Comey should immediately provide the American public more information than is contained in the letter he sent to eight Republican committee chairmen. Already, we have seen characterizations that the FBI is “reopening” an investigation but Comey’s words do not match that characterization. Director Comey’s letter refers to emails that came to light in an unrelated case, but we have no idea what those emails are and the Director himself notes they may not even be significant.
> 
> It is extraordinary that we would see something like this just 11 days out from a presidential election.
> 
> The Director owes it to the American people to immediately provide the full details of what he is now examining. We are confident this will not produce any conclusions different from the one the FBI reached in July.


Huma Abedin knows what she was emailing to Weiner. So she could tell the other Clinton officials.She was on the plane with Hillary today.

Maybe Huma was discussing classified information with Weiner using the private server.


----------



## Nelley

wraphter said:


> John Podesta,Clinton's campaign manager issues a statement:
> 
> 
> 
> Huma Abedin knows what she was emailing to Weiner. So she could tell the other Clinton officials.She was on the plane with Hillary today.
> 
> Maybe Huma was discussing classified information with Weiner using the private server.


One problem for Crooked Hillary is that Wikileaks has exposed John Podesta as a grifter and a crook-so when he issues a high and mighty statement like this one it is laughable to the public.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> Cultures? (music, food, language, literature, etc.) Sure. Values? Hell no. Western values are what has made this country successful and stable.
> 
> Multiculturalism is fine when it comes to culture. Values are non-negotiable. None of this 'who am I to judge' moral bankruptcy on treatment of women, sexual minorities, respect for science & reason, freedom of speech, etc.



i have no idea what you think you are talking about. I said "cultures" - as in language, music, literature, food - & i mean cultures. When someone forcefully demands that new canadians must instantly surrender their cultural characteristics & become carbon copies of la vieille souche, of course folks are going to point out how ridiculous this sounds.

as for your "moral bankruptcy" gibberish, i am by no means any kind of moral bankrupt. Are you a morally bankrupt citizen? do you have morally bankrupt friends, family members, acquaintances? how did this gibberish get into the conversation?

surely you don't want to ally yourself with the ignorant nelleys & other primates who believe that every syrian refugee came to canada with a diabolical mission to sabotage fair treatment of women. That they all arrived here with a secret agenda to torpedo science & reason, terrorize sexual minorities & destroy freedom of speech.

here i was thinking that you were one who could do better ...

.


----------



## TomB19

I can't imagine a legitimate argument toward rejecting people bringing most of what foreign cultures offer to Canada, nor do I read anyone arguing such.

... but you have to admit, there are some pretty unsavory things coming from some parts of the world. How about mercy killings of disgraced daughters? There is more but I don't need any more.

I'm with wraphter, on this one issue. Bring the people but reject the primitive values. When they bring improvements to our value system, embrace those... of course.


----------



## sags

Too little.......too late.

Voters are already casting ballots across the US and are favoring Clinton. 

Clinton is leading in most of the battleground states and she only needs to win a couple to clinch the electoral votes. 

Donald Trump needs to win ALL of them, plus steal some solidly Democratic states away from her.

Clinton is a 100% bet to win the Presidency.

Republicans should get used to the salutation.........Mrs. President.


----------



## sags

Hillary Clinton is traveling around the US battle states, accompanied by Michelle Obama and the local candidate.

Donald Trump is traveling around the US battle states, accompanied by nobody and the local candidate left town to avoid him.

Pretty much says it all.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i have no idea what you think you are talking about. I said "cultures" - as in language, music, literature, food - & i mean cultures. When someone forcefully demands that new canadians must instantly surrender their cultural characteristics & become carbon copies of la vieille souche, of course folks are going to point out how ridiculous this sounds.
> 
> as for your "moral bankruptcy" gibberish, i am by no means any kind of moral bankrupt. Are you a morally bankrupt citizen? do you have morally bankrupt friends, family members, acquaintances? how did this gibberish get into the conversation?
> 
> surely you don't want to ally yourself with the ignorant nelleys & other primates who believe that every syrian refugee came to canada with a diabolical mission to sabotage fair treatment of women. That they all arrived here with a secret agenda to torpedo science & reason, terrorize sexual minorities & destroy freedom of speech.
> 
> here i was thinking that you were one who could do better ...
> 
> .


More politically correct garbage from Humble-NEWSFLASH bubblehead-all foreign cultures aren't equivalent or in the same stage of civilized development-e.g. maybe Japan is more advanced than Canada but Syria is primitive and has a primitive culture and slowly the sheep are realizing that your PC message is just a sad joke.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Too little.......too late.
> 
> Voters are already casting ballots across the US and are favoring Clinton.
> 
> Clinton is leading in most of the battleground states and she only needs to win a couple to clinch the electoral votes.
> 
> Donald Trump needs to win ALL of them, plus steal some solidly Democratic states away from her.
> 
> Clinton is a 100% bet to win the Presidency.
> 
> Republicans should get used to the salutation.........Mrs. President.


Who are you trying to convince-us or yourself? You are trying too hard-you are coming off as somewhat desperate.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> Cultures? (music, food, language, literature, etc.) Sure. Values? Hell no. Western values are what has made this country successful and stable.
> 
> Multiculturalism is fine when it comes to culture. Values are non-negotiable. None of this 'who am I to judge' moral bankruptcy on treatment of women, sexual minorities, respect for science & reason, freedom of speech, etc.




Sure lets not bring in individuals who support killing gays, the subjugation of women, rape, murder, drugs and terrorism. Seems obvious. 

It is when we identify such individuals by race, religion or nationality that the conversation turns from security to old-fashioned bigotry.

At various times throughout history charges of moral bankruptcy have been levelled at Italian immigrants, Irish immigrants, Jews, Muslims, Norsemen, Blacks, Englishman etc.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Sure Tom, we shouldn't welcome individuals who support killing gays, the subjugation of women, rape, murder, drugs and terrorism. Seems obvious.
> 
> It is when we identify such individuals by race, religion or nationality that the conversation turns from security to old-fashioned bigotry.
> 
> At various times throughout history charges of moral bankruptcy have been levelled at Italian immigrants, Irish immigrants, Jews, Muslims, Norsemen, Blacks, Englishman etc.


Listen Einstein-if you bring enough people into this country who support killing gays eventually that will be the majority opinion and then sheep like yourself will support killing gays. If Canada is going to survive as a civilized nation it will require having citizens who are civilized, not animals.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Who are you trying to convince-us or yourself? You are trying too hard-you are coming off as somewhat desperate.


I'm not sure that a sock puppet can call anyone else desperate. Sock puppetry is pretty much as desperate as one can get. :disgust:


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> ... but you have to admit, there are some pretty unsavory things coming from some parts of the world. How about mercy killings of disgraced daughters? There is more but I don't need any more.



the heartbreaker is that the daughters were never disgraced. It was always the parents, sometimes also the brothers, all indoctrinated with the hideous old religion in the old school in the old country.

it's not an easy issue to solve, since the only 100% effective way to prevent would be to shut the door totally on all immigration into canada. We have to rely on increasingly sharper & sharper investigation by canadian immigration & refugee screening agents at overseas processing centers, that's all we can do.

there is also the issue of the born-in-canada terrorists. Both the males who assassinated soldiers Patrice Vincent & Nathan Cirillo in 2014 were born in this country but converted to radical islam as youths or young adults.

many - perhaps most - of the young converts to ISIL who have recently been stopped by police before they left this country were also born in canada.

with the exception of the most famous case, the few honour killings we have heard about seem to have mostly taken place in the GTA. The most famous case was the Shafia family, with three daughters & one ex-wife all killed in kingston.

these stories are still so distressing to me, as a female & as a mother of young persons like the daughters & the soldiers, that i shall have to stop writing any moment. But may i say one last thing, which is that we are seeing more & more welcome signs that police, teachers, schools, health workers & community organizations are learning to recognize the signs that something is wrong much earlier.

in the case of the shafia daughters, they had asked for help, but still the teachers & social workers had not responded. That was then, this is now. So much has happened in only a few short years. Today we want to make sure that any young person with any signs or symptoms of distress will be responded to immediately.

.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Listen Einstein-if you bring enough people into this country who support killing gays eventually that will be the majority opinion and then sheep like yourself will support killing gays. If Canada is going to survive as a civilized nation it will require having citizens who are civilized, not animals.


Listen sock puppet-we are not bringing people into this country who support killing gays. What we have is a few half wits like yourself spreading lies about minorities.


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> All the vast right-wing conspiracies I've been hearing lately have been coming true. Hillary is going down. There's big stuff in these emails, folks. Big league.



sure, someone might claim that it's big stuff & big league, but all that i heard was routine foreign policy press briefing. Nothing shocking in the least.

clinton said - very sensibly - that she advocated continuous interfacing with an enemy because one wants to keep learning as much as possible about the enemy. The best way to do this is to keep talking to them, she said.

how is that supposed to be big league? 

was donald trump's son-in-law Jared - the guy who has surfaced this 2006 tape recording with the obvious hope of harming hillary in the final campaign stage - even the editor of the Observer way back in 2006, when the recording was made?

.


----------



## bass player

Julian Assange said today that the next leak will lead to Hillary being arrested. One can only hope...


----------



## tygrus

Sags, a candidate being actively investigated or charged would garner a re-vote I am sure.

Trump stood in there for all the last minute accusations. Why should Hilary be spared?


----------



## TomB19

tygrus said:


> Sags, a candidate being actively investigated or charged would garner a re-vote I am sure.


I highly doubt that.




tygrus said:


> Trump stood in there for all the last minute accusations. Why should Hilary be spared?


Indeed.


----------



## tygrus

So Clinton has been in this situation twice now with the FBI. Does she escape a 2nd time without an investigation or charges? Seems unlikley. 

How many investigations is this now for the clinton clan? 4 or 5 at least.


----------



## bass player

Tomorrow's headline??

"Clinton campaign Fu#&ed by A Weiner"


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Wow Andrewf-we agree for once.


It's your fault you backed yourself into such an ideological corner.


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> i have no idea what you think you are talking about. I said "cultures" - as in language, music, literature, food - & i mean cultures. When someone forcefully demands that new canadians must instantly surrender their cultural characteristics & become carbon copies of la vieille souche, of course folks are going to point out how ridiculous this sounds.
> 
> as for your "moral bankruptcy" gibberish, i am by no means any kind of moral bankrupt. Are you a morally bankrupt citizen? do you have morally bankrupt friends, family members, acquaintances? how did this gibberish get into the conversation?
> 
> surely you don't want to ally yourself with the ignorant nelleys & other primates who believe that every syrian refugee came to canada with a diabolical mission to sabotage fair treatment of women. That they all arrived here with a secret agenda to torpedo science & reason, terrorize sexual minorities & destroy freedom of speech.
> 
> here i was thinking that you were one who could do better ...
> 
> .


Humble, my comment wasn't an accusation. For many people, multiculturalism means moral relativism. While the Conservatives' approach in the last election of the barbaric cultural practices snitch line was a bit on the nose, I support a clear distinction for new Canadians about the difference between culture and values. We have to be careful when we use terms like multiculturalism as it means different things to different people.

On Syrian refugees, I think there are definitely many who should be allowed in, but as far as I can tell there is no attempt made to filter based on values. I would lean toward allowing in religious minorities (Christians and yazidis) and vulnerable groups (women and children). I think this is where Europe went wrong, allowing in migrants indiscriminately, effectively allowing those who could push their way to the front of the queue in first.


----------



## Nelley

Here is that skinny little guy that Humble doesn't find sexy- Bill Still-with a great report on Crooked Hillary's latest crapstorm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i74ispHoQL8


----------



## TomB19

tygrus said:


> So Clinton has been in this situation twice now with the FBI. Does she escape a 2nd time without an investigation or charges? Seems unlikley.
> 
> How many investigations is this now for the clinton clan? 4 or 5 at least.


Don't forget the 33 Benghazi hearings she has survived. Think of the odds!


----------



## andrewf

TomB19 said:


> I can't imagine a legitimate argument toward rejecting people bringing most of what foreign cultures offer to Canada, nor do I read anyone arguing such.
> 
> ... but you have to admit, there are some pretty unsavory things coming from some parts of the world. How about mercy killings of disgraced daughters? There is more but I don't need any more.
> 
> I'm with wraphter, on this one issue. Bring the people but reject the primitive values. When they bring improvements to our value system, embrace those... of course.


I think you mean "honour" killing, not mercy killing.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> More politically correct garbage from Humble-NEWSFLASH bubblehead-all foreign cultures aren't equivalent or in the same stage of civilized development-e.g. maybe Japan is more advanced than Canada but Syria is primitive and has a primitive culture and slowly the sheep are realizing that your PC message is just a sad joke.


I would not agree with Japan being more advanced. They still hold quite retrograde values when it comes to gender equality.


----------



## andrewf

olivaw said:


> Sure lets not bring in individuals who support killing gays, the subjugation of women, rape, murder, drugs and terrorism. Seems obvious.
> 
> It is when we identify such individuals by race, religion or nationality that the conversation turns from security to old-fashioned bigotry.
> 
> At various times throughout history charges of moral bankruptcy have been levelled at Italian immigrants, Irish immigrants, Jews, Muslims, Norsemen, Blacks, Englishman etc.


The moral bankruptcy is not on the part of the fundamentalist muslim, but the western apologist who welcomes and tolerates those with values incompatible with those of the West.

Race and nationality are something that is immutable about a person and an unjust basis for excluding newcomers. Religion is a set of beliefs (or lack there of), and is something that can and indeed may have to change for someone to embrace secular pluralistic Western values. This is where people go wrong when calling hostility to Islam "racist". Islam is not a race. It is a nexus of ideas, and particularly bad ones as religions go. Of course, since the penalty for apostacy in Islam is death, I am sympathetic to people who are Muslims in name only, and do not sincerely hold any of the beliefs required of the religion.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> I would not agree with Japan being more advanced. They still hold quite retrograde values when it comes to gender equality.


I didn't say Japan was more advanced-I said it was a possibility-both Japan and Canada have advanced nations-they are just different.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Julian Assange said today that the next leak will lead to Hillary being arrested. One can only hope...


Julian Assange has thus far proven himself to be full of ****. Time for him to put up or shut up. He's demolished any pretence of journalistic integrity he may still have retained by his behaviour in this election. Why is he withholding information that could lead to an arrest? Does he want to add obstruction of justice the list of charges the US government will prosecute for him for if he ever leaves his hidey-hole?


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Julian Assange has thus far proven himself to be full of ****. Time for him to put up or shut up. He's demolished any pretence of journalistic integrity he may still have retained by his behaviour in this election. Why is he withholding information that could lead to an arrest? Does he want to add obstruction of justice the list of charges the US government will prosecute for him for if he ever leaves his hidey-hole?


NO-I have to conclude on this one Andrewf is totally full of ****. If what Assange is doing is so easy lots of people would be doing it-are you telling us a little wimp like you could do it?-yeah sure.


----------



## Argonaut

humble_pie said:


> these stories are still so distressing to me, as a female & as a mother of young persons like the daughters & the soldiers, that i shall have to stop writing any moment.


humble, it's hard to tell gender on message boards in the absence of descriptors in handle's like "gal" but I had always assumed you were male. Is it true you're a mother? It's definitely not a stereotype to have a mother being an advanced options trader.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> NO-I have to conclude on this one Andrewf is totally full of ****. If what Assange is doing is so easy lots of people would be doing it-are you telling us a little wimp like you could do it?-yeah sure.


You mean being a pawn of the Russian government to influence the course of the US election? Putin only needs one useful idiot.

If he's had this information for months as he's hinted, and not released it, he's guilty of journalistic malpractice and obstruction of justice.


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> humble, it's hard to tell gender on message boards in the absence of descriptors in handle's like "gal" but I had always assumed you were male. Is it true you're a mother? It's definitely not a stereotype to have a mother being an advanced options trader.



argo u are the only person who didn't know. That's what happens when a guy departs to work hard on oil rigs up north, then comes back south & promptly buries himself in the books for an MBA, etc.

me i always assumed that everybody would easily guess i'm a female. Because guys never write in the romantic purple language that i sometimes lapse into. 

as for options, the director of options trading on the montreal exchange is a woman. She has an MA in economics. I'm not sure about now, but there have been entire desks on the MX that were uniquely staffed by women.

this forum is a bit behind the times, but the last 15 years have seen a marked inrush of women investors into DIY land. More will come. It's the younger males who seem to be entirely comfortable with changes like this, i find.

.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> Julian Assange has thus far proven himself to be full of ****. Time for him to put up or shut up. He's demolished any pretence of journalistic integrity he may still have retained by his behaviour in this election. Why is he withholding information that could lead to an arrest? Does he want to add obstruction of justice the list of charges the US government will prosecute for him for if he ever leaves his hidey-hole?



i haven't followed the Assange story at all, but the rough outline has gone completely over the top. This business of timing his plants is straight out of the twilight zone.

it's a relief to find the FBI saying that they'll look into new material on the double. 

.


----------



## Nelley

The scary thing is that now it appears that James Comey-head of the FBI-is actually working for Putin along with everybody else but Hillary. Scary stuff.


----------



## sags

The election is over and the Republicans are hoping for some kind of miracle ending in the last 11 days. 

Some stories don't have happy endings and for the Republicans, this is one of them.

Clinton to Republicans............let's do it all again in 2020.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> The scary thing is that now it appears that James Comey-head of the FBI-is actually working for Putin along with everybody else but Hillary. Scary stuff.



i don't believe the above interpretation goes anywhere near the truth.

the level of frenzied hate that has built up against hillary clinton means that new accusations have to be lanced immediately. They can't be left to fester. The faster the new e-mails go under the FBI microscope, the better.

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i don't believe the above interpretation goes anywhere near the truth.
> 
> the level of frenzied hate that has built up against hillary clinton means that new accusations have to be lanced immediately. They can't be left to fester. The faster the new e-mails go under the FBI microscope, the better.
> 
> .


The fact is Comey would never think of reopening this investigation unless he had no choice-whatever is coming is probably a big problem for the witch.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> The fact is Comey would never think of reopening this investigation unless he had no choice-whatever is coming is probably a big problem for the witch.



lol james comey tweeted you with his personal thoughts on this? he told you he has no choice?

.


----------



## tygrus

isn't the FBI director appointed by the current administration? So Obama chose this guy who was waiting to derail the next election? Doesnt sound likely.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> lol james comey tweeted you with his personal thoughts on this? he told you he has no choice?
> 
> .


Bubblehead: The FBI isn't in the practice of just casually reopening high profile cases like this one (especially at this time). Use your head before you type once in a while.


----------



## indexxx

wraphter said:


> It's not over. FBI will re-open investigation into Clinton's emails and server.


Oh but wait- I thought it was a confirmed fact that the FBI was in the left pocket? Isn't that what's been stated over and over (and over) by the right on this forum? Why would anyone believe the FBI at this point? Why are they rebelling against their masters- or was the whole thing a leftist conspiracy?


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Bubblehead: The FBI isn't in the practice of just casually reopening high profile cases like this one (especially at this time). Use your head before you type once in a while.



Buyhbyt you yourself have personally commanded this new chapter in FBI investigations, i take it?

so much inside knowledge
i'm impressed


----------



## new dog

Indexxx the FBI is controlled by whoever is interested in keeping Hillary on course. It is obvious without a doubt and any one can see it. Remember the Clinton meeting on the tarmac, I am sure the FBI would not have been keen on that if someone else they were looking into was doing that. If they are looking into it again it is because they have no choice I would think.


----------



## gibor365

Jill Stein


----------



## andrewf

wraphter said:


> It's not over. FBI will re-open investigation into Clinton's emails and server.


Yes it is. It is too late to close the gap. Even if the GOP's wildest dreams come true and Hillary is hauled off to gitmo in shackles, we're going to have a President Kaine, not Trump.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Here is that skinny little guy that Humble doesn't find sexy- Bill Still-with a great report on Crooked Hillary's latest crapstorm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i74ispHoQL8



that piece showing donald trump in new hampshire? the "audience" kept roaring applause? that sounded like canned applause. listen carefully. each splice starts on the exact same notes.

meanwhile, according to our friends nelley & still, james comey is now guilty of racketeering & hillary has become the wicked witch of the north.

it's 2016, how did we regress so fast to salem mass, to the witch trials of 1692.

.


----------



## wraphter

indexxx said:


> Oh but wait- I thought it was a confirmed fact that the FBI was in the left pocket? Isn't that what's been stated over and over (and over) by the right on this forum? Why would anyone believe the FBI at this point? Why are they rebelling against their masters- or was the whole thing a leftist conspiracy?


It's quite possible that Comey should have indicted her after the first investigation but succumbed to political pressure from the White House. This led to criticism of him by his own people in the FBI and many in the public. It was highly unusual when he made that speech on July 5 saying that he would recommend she not be indicted. The FBI never does that. It is the prerogative of the DOJ to indict or not to indict. Loretta Lynch said she would take the FBI's recommendation and would not deviate from it.
She in effect recused herself because Bill Clinton talked to her in her plane on the tarmac. 

Now with 11 days to go he has made a cryptic public announcement to reverse his mistake and right the wrong he committed by not indicting her in the first place.Maybe he is trying to placate his own investigators.Maybe he feels the Clinton people like Huma Abedin didn't co-operate by turning over all their devices. Donald Trump is now saying the FBI isn't so rigged after all. The FBI tries not to intervene in elections by not doing anything within 60 days of an election but in this case they did not follow their own rules.

Maybe he is trying to resurrect the tarnished reputation of the FBI. I am not sure why he had to make an announcement before November 8th. He said they have to investigate to see what is in the thousands of emails on Weiner's laptop. If he didn't make the announcement before the election he could be accused by the Republicans of favouring Clinton.

He wants to preserve the reputation of the FBI. He has really hurt the Clinton campaign.


----------



## tygrus

andrewf said:


> Yes it is. It is too late to close the gap. Even if the GOP's wildest dreams come true and Hillary is hauled off to gitmo in shackles, we're going to have a President Kaine, not Trump.


Clinton may still win the election, but she likely doomed her own presidency. She may go into active investigation after being sworn in or at least be under unbelievable scrutiny. The GOP are already putting together new investigations and hearings for her to face in her first few years. She will be president in name only and get nothing done. Stalemate for 4 more years.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> that piece showing donald trump in new hampshire? the "audience" kept roaring applause? that sounded like canned applause. listen carefully. each splice starts on the exact same notes.
> 
> meanwhile, according to our friends nelley & still, james comey is now guilty of racketeering & hillary has become the wicked witch of the north.
> 
> it's 2016, how did we regress so fast to salem mass, to the witch trials of 1692.
> 
> .


Sometimes when there is a witch hunt they actually catch a real witch-this might be one of those times.


----------



## wraphter

deleted


----------



## TomB19

[redacted]

(It was something nice written about Nelley)


----------



## new dog

Here is her press conference, she is dealing with a different animal here and can't just kill Comey so she is in a pickle. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuDnyH_eo7s


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Sometimes when there is a witch hunt they actually catch a real witch-this might be one of those times.


Conspiracy Nelly so you've got something against witches as well as moslems and immigrants then?

This is 2016 in case you hadn't noticed.


----------



## Nelley

You know-I wouldn't be surprised if that 15 year old Weiner was sexting is a Russian agent-a regular Mata Hari of Junior High. That Putin is everywhere-does the guy ever sleep?


----------



## new dog

It is almost Halloween so it is a good time to direct this thread into the Halloween spirit. They do it on TV and in the stores so why not here.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Conspiracy Nelly so you've got something against witches as well as moslems and immigrants then?
> 
> This is 2016 in case you hadn't noticed.


You shouldn't even be up at this hour-your Mom is probably worried you are surfing porn again-shut it down genius.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> It is almost Halloween so it is a good time to direct this thread into the Halloween spirit. They do it on TV and in the stores so why not here.


Hopefully they can put the wicked witch in handcuffs on Halloween 2016.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Hopefully they can put the wicked witch in handcuffs on Halloween 2016.


That would be nice imho.. you could be the queen of your cell block. hah.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> Here is her press conference, she is dealing with a different animal here and can't just kill Comey so she is in a pickle.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuDnyH_eo7s


What an ignorant *****-she is yelling that the FBI must give her all the info they have-she must have forgot the FBI is supposed to be an independent agency.


----------



## TomB19

Good idea.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> That would be nice imho.. you could be the queen of your cell block. hah.


That is it-now I am gonna call your Mom-she is gonna be pissed for sure.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Good idea.
> 
> View attachment 12338


https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/73483241/Hillary-Joker


----------



## mrPPincer

Conspiracy Nelly, I'm not judging, but you're the dude that went with a female user-name to do your shitposting and woman-bashing.

Would be some nice irony if your wish comes true and you get thrown in general population


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Conspiracy Nelly, I'm not judging, but you're the dude that went with a female user-name to do your shitposting and woman-bashing.
> 
> Would be some nice irony if your wish comes true and you get thrown in general population


No offense-and this is meant sincerely-you are a total and complete idiot.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> No offense-and this is meant sincerely-you are a total and complete idiot.


Conspiracy Nelley, that would sting a bit if you hadn't said the same thing repeatedly to every other member of this forum for the last eight weeks or so since you joined (sans bass player ofc).


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> No offense-and this is meant sincerely-you are a total and complete idiot.



y'll know how i'm intrigued by language patterns & language signatures. They're like thumbprints.

it's becoming clear who the nelleykins really is. Yup a cmffer.

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

SMK said:


> Obviously balanced immigration consisting of more than just numbers is important. The problem, though not so much in Canada, is that some immigrants don't want to be Canadians, as in they don't accept nor respect our democracy, traditions and laws. Those are the ones that should be kept out and majority of Canadians seem to be in agreement.


But that's what diversity means, SMK


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It is not the job of the FBI or any police force to prosecute or indict. They are supposed to investigate, and if they find evidence of wrongdoing hand the information over to a Grand Jury or District Attorney, who then decides whether to prosecute and if so, what charges to lay. It was never Comey's job to determine whether someone should be prosecuted or not. In other words he had no right to sit on evidence or to say it was up to the voters to decide if Clinton was in the wrong.

I think he got a lot more blowback than he expected. I have heard a lot of FBI agents were very upset at the way he handled the investigation. He may be responding to criticism we know nothing about.


----------



## mrPPincer

humble_pie said:


> it's becoming clear who the nelleykins really is. Yup a cmffer.


I'm dubious, it's possible, but why?

I do suspect he's being paid to shitpost here however, though again, why? This is *C*MF.


----------



## olivaw

It's pretty obvious to most here that nelley is an alias used by a regular poster (a *sockpuppet*)



> Multiple accounts are the natural result of a non-anonymous website. People switch accounts just to stay anonymous. But a sock puppet is when a person uses these accounts to prove they've not gotten laid for a very long time, if ever.


----------



## indexxx

mrPPincer said:


> I'm dubious, it's possible, but why?
> 
> I do suspect he's being paid to shitpost here however, though again, why? This is *C*MF.


Simply a garden-variety troll (metro-gnome??) who gets their kicks by insulting others anonymously and trying to raise inflammatory reactions. Pretty sad to have to belittle a community of people for his own entertainment.


----------



## indexxx

BTW- Just as we all knew was going to happen, it's come down to pussies vs Weiners...


----------



## new dog

I don't know why there is so much space here throwing useless crap at Nelley. If he or she is an idiot then why all this talk about this person. We should stick to the issues, entertainment or comedy here, instead of this crap.


----------



## olivaw

Your crush on conspiracy Nelley is noted.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> I don't know why there is so much space here throwing useless crap at Nelley. If he or she is an idiot then why all this talk about this person. We should stick to the issues, entertainment or comedy here, instead of this crap.



dog these are hard times
we have to take fun where we can find it
won't you please lighten up


----------



## humble_pie

.

for quite a while i've thought that nelley & bass might be deep moles
in reality they're democrats
acting up on here in order to turn peoples' stomachs against trump

ok i've figured out nelley's cmf ID
she's a deep democrat with even deeper kinks
items like baseball bats & neckties

now the question is Which cmffer is playing bass


.


----------



## mordko

A Trump supporter tried to vote twice and got caught. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...blican-voter-arrested-for-alleged-voter-fraud


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> dog these are hard times
> we have to take fun where we can find it
> won't you please lighten up


Sorry Humble I agree, it just seemed like Nelley was taking on to many hits non stop. Nelley does also give as good as he gets and does come up with some good points as well.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> A Trump supporter tried voted twice and got caught. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...blican-voter-arrested-for-alleged-voter-fraud


Thanks. lmao!


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> A Trump supporter tried voted twice and got caught. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...blican-voter-arrested-for-alleged-voter-fraud


And a Hillary supporter voted several times and bragged about it on FaceBook, and then stated he will continue to commit voter fraud:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...pporter-brags-facebook-voting-multiple-times/


----------



## sags

Is it too complicated for them to use voter cards like we have ?


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> Is it too complicated for them to use voter cards like we have ?


You can vote without being sent a voter card. I did several times (during different elections) because the election commission kept screwing up and didn't have our house in their database. Voter cards do nothing to prevent fraud if someone wants to vote several times.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> And a Hillary supporter voted several times and bragged about it on FaceBook, and then stated he will continue to commit voter fraud:
> 
> http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...pporter-brags-facebook-voting-multiple-times/


The FB guy is a Trump supporter making a bad joke. :tan:

ETA: The FB guy admitted that it was a joke and deleted the post with an apology. Snopes recorded a routine debunking entry.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> And a Hillary supporter voted several times and bragged about it on FaceBook, and then stated he will continue to commit voter fraud:
> 
> http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...pporter-brags-facebook-voting-multiple-times/




as olivaw says, that facebook vote thingy screams fakefakefakefakefake


----------



## TomB19

"The Gateway Pundit" lol!

The article is a "joke" but then thinking people already knew that.

Here is a link to the local Jacksonville paper.

http://www.jdnews.com/news/20161028...ed-once-despite-viral-post-claiming-otherwise


----------



## humble_pie

tomB do you think bass & nelley are moles?

set up in order to revolt readers away from the trumpster?


----------



## olivaw

Lawfare has an interesting write up on the Comey letter. *Memo to the Press: What Comey's Letter Does and Doesn't Mean* by Benjamin Wittes*



> The key point here, in other words, is not that Comey is "reopening" a closed matter because of some bombshell. It is that he is amending his public testimony to Congress that the FBI is done while the bureau examines new material that may or may not have implications for investigative conclusions previously reached.


https://www.lawfareblog.com/memo-press-what-comeys-letter-does-and-doesnt-mean

(*Benjamin Wittes is editor in chief of Lawfare and a Senior Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books and is co-chair of the Hoover Institution's Working Group on National Security, Technology, and Law.)


----------



## sags

Every era comes and goes, and it looks to me like the era of right wing conservatism has written it's final chapter.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Lawfare has an interesting write up on the Comey letter. *Memo to the Press: What Comey's Letter Does and Doesn't Mean* by Benjamin Wittes*
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lawfareblog.com/memo-press-what-comeys-letter-does-and-doesnt-mean
> 
> (*Benjamin Wittes is editor in chief of Lawfare and a Senior Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books and is co-chair of the Hoover Institution's Working Group on National Security, Technology, and Law.)


Sheep: The criminal investigation of Crooked Hillary by the FBI, previously CLOSED is now OPEN-all the spin in the world doesn't change that. She is currently under criminal investigation by the FBI-period.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> tomB do you think bass & nelley are moles?
> 
> set up in order to revolt readers away from the trumpster?


Look-any reader can see that you are the one with the weird fantasies about me-sexual and otherwise-I comment on the US election-you usually fixate on me.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Every era comes and goes, and it looks to me like the era of right wing conservatism has written it's final chapter.


No.There are certain aspects of human nature that are perennial and do not come and go. 
Liberalism and conservatism are *innate* aspects of human nature and can be understood by evolutionary psychology according 
to the work of moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt. His Moral Foundation Theory explains the political difference between liberals and conservatives.



> The theory posits that there are (at least) six *innate* moral foundations, upon which cultures develop their various moralities, just as there are five innate taste receptors on the tongue, which cultures have used to create many different cuisines. The six are care/harm, fairness (equality)/cheating, liberty/oppression, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, and sanctity/degradation. The theory was developed to explain cross-cultural differences in morality, but Haidt and his collaborators at YourMorals.org[21] have found that the theory works well to explain political differences as well.* Liberals (leftists) tend to endorse primarily the care and equality foundations, whereas conservatives (rightists) tend to endorse all six foundations more equally.*[22]


To say right wing conservatism (which is a very vague term and not explained,just a buzz word really) is finished
when Donald Trump challenges for the presidency is to ignore all the evidence.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Sheep: The criminal investigation of Crooked Hillary by the FBI, previously CLOSED is now OPEN-all the spin in the world doesn't change that. She is currently under criminal investigation by the FBI-period.


Wrong again Conspiracy Nelley. It's a published legal opinion penned by a respected lawyer. 

Not to mention that Trump is under investigation for numerous illegal activities. He'll have to testify as defendant in both a sexual assault case and a fraud case.

Better luck in 2020


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> No.There are certain aspects of human nature that are perennial and do not come and go.
> Liberalism and conservatism are *innate* aspects of human nature and can be understood by evolutionary psychology according
> to the work of moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt. His Moral Foundation Theory explains the political difference between liberals and conservatives.
> 
> 
> 
> The theory posits that there are (at least) six innate moral foundations, upon which cultures develop their various moralities, just as there are five innate taste receptors on the tongue, which cultures have used to create many different cuisines. The six are care/harm, fairness (equality)/cheating, liberty/oppression, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, and sanctity/degradation. The theory was developed to explain cross-cultural differences in morality, but Haidt and his collaborators at YourMorals.org[21] have found that the theory works well to explain political differences as well. *Liberals (leftists) tend to endorse primarily the care and equality foundations, whereas conservatives (rightists) tend to endorse all six foundations more equally.*[22]
Click to expand...

Interesting thesis but the highlighted conclusion is nonsense. The suggestion that liberals are unconcerned with liberty, loyalty, authority and sanctity is ridiculous. People need to invest more time trying to understand opposing arguments and less time searching for ways to discredit individuals as morally incomplete.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> tomB do you think bass & nelley are moles?
> 
> set up in order to revolt readers away from the trumpster?


It's possible but I don't think so. Amazingly, there are people out there who think exactly like Nelley. I think bass' point of view is easier to understand. I believe both of these individuals are sincere in their beliefs.

There's nothing wrong with having a different philosophy. I think it's great they are in here pitching for Trump. It gives us something to banter on about.




Nelley said:


> Look-any reader can see that you are the one with the weird fantasies about me-sexual and otherwise-I comment on the US election-you usually fixate on me.


I'm the one with weird sexual fantasies about you, Nelley. Don't turn away. I know you feel it too.

Let's do something about it.


----------



## Nelley

Jeez-even the MSM is starting to worry about Crooked Hillary http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...clinton-emails-kass-1030-20161028-column.html


----------



## Nelley

Former assistant FBI director says the Clintons are ORGANIZED CRIME http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...rmer-fbi-official-clintons-are-a-crime-family


----------



## bass player

It has now been revealed that the agents told to destroy laptops of Clinton aide Cheryl Mills and ex-campaign staffer Heather Samuelson did not destroy them. Therefore, damaging information may still exist. Therefore, it's not a coincidence that once Comey found out he re-opened the investigation...he was trying to cover his ***. However, it's too late as he has done severe damage to both his and the FBI's credibility.

This also brings up another issue...Huma Abedin stated under oath that she turned over all devices with emails to the FBI. It now seems that she may have lied under oath and could/should face perjury charges.

The media is starting to realize that they can't cover for the Clinton Corruption Machine any more. This has become too big to hide. Stay tuned to see who the Clinton's throw under the bus next in an effort to cover their tracks!! :highly_amused:


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> It has now been revealed that the agents told to destroy laptops of Clinton aide Cheryl Mills and ex-campaign staffer Heather Samuelson did not destroy them. Therefore, damaging information may still exist. Therefore, it's not a coincidence that once Comey found out he re-opened the investigation...he was trying to cover his ***. However, it's too late as he has done severe damage to both his and the FBI's credibility.
> 
> This also brings up another issue...Huma Abedin stated under oath that she turned over all devices with emails to the FBI. It now seems that she may have lied under oath and could/should face perjury charges.
> 
> The media is starting to realize that they can't cover for the Clinton Corruption Machine any more. This has become too big to hide. Stay tuned to see who the Clinton's throw under the bus next in an effort to cover their tracks!! :highly_amused:


Is there any information in this post? Seriously? I don't see any. It is 100% spin.

I appreciate that you share your opinion. I am sincere in this, however, you've just done the equivalent of connecting your morning bowl movement with the number of cats in Portugal.

It is clear that for you, someone clearing their throat would prove your view that Clinton is corrupt.

The media posted about finding the new email before Clinton knew herself (according to her at a press conference she learned about it from the news). The original email scandal was covered extensively, too.

The original Benghazi hearing was covered extensively too, but coverage tapered off as the hearing odometer got out toward the double digits.

At some point, it's not a conspiracy but a realization that there is an attempt to manipulate the dialog with misinformation. Look at the sheer amount of fabrications that you present. You see a Hillary Clinton scandal behind every bush. We are not part of the conspiracy if we dismiss the posts of yourself and Nelley as the rantings of psychotic individuals.


----------



## bass player

James Woods tweeted a good one...maybe Hillary can use it for their new campaign slogan:

"Schlonger Together"


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Is there any information in this post? Seriously? I don't see any. It is 100% spin.
> 
> I appreciate that you share your opinion. I am sincere in this, however, you've just done the equivalent of connecting your morning bowl movement with the number of cats in Portugal.
> 
> It is clear that for you, someone clearing their throat would prove your view that Clinton is corrupt.
> 
> The media posted about finding the new email before Clinton knew herself (according to her at a press conference she learned about it from the news). The original email scandal was covered extensively, too.
> 
> The original Benghazi hearing was covered extensively too, but coverage tapered off as the hearing odometer got out toward the double digits.
> 
> At some point, it's not a conspiracy but a realization that there is an attempt to manipulate the dialog with misinformation. Look at the sheer amount of fabrications that you present. You see a Hillary Clinton scandal behind every bush. We are not part of the conspiracy if we dismiss the posts of yourself and Nelley as the rantings of psychotic individuals.


Yup...it's all a big right wing conspiracy and Hillary is as pure as the driven snow


----------



## sags

James Comey's letter to Congress said...we found some emails on Anthony Weiner's laptop that might have something to do with something, but we don't know if they do or not.

All he was doing was updating Congress....and the media and Republicans have tried to explode it into some huge new treasure trove of information.

Hillary Clinton says to release the information to the public. Why not just do that ?

This will go one of two ways for the Republicans.

Either there is new damning emails and information about Hillary Clinton's treatment of classified information and she will be in serious trouble, or there is nothing and the Republicans will have totally destroyed their credibility and voters will turn away from them permanently.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> James Comey's letter to Congress said...we found some emails on Anthony Weiner's laptop that might have something to do with something, but we don't know if they do or not.
> 
> All he was doing was updating Congress....and the media and Republicans have tried to explode it into some huge new treasure trove of information.
> 
> Hillary Clinton says to release the information to the public. Why not just do that ?


Why doesn't Hillary release the information if it's innocent instead of demanding someone else do so?


----------



## sags

Hillary doesn't have the information. It is on Anthony Wiener's laptop.

If the information contains Hillary Clinton emails, they most likely are duplicate emails that were already examined by the FBI.

The FBI examined something like 80,000 emails and found 3 that were questionable.

Of the 3.........2 were marked "c" with means confidential, not classified.

The remaining email was deemed to be classified, although it wasn't marked as classified until later.

Should Clinton have used a private server.........no. Was classified information contained on her server..........no.

She was careless, or whomever was handling her email security was careless, but nothing remotely approaching criminal.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Why doesn't Hillary release the information if it's innocent instead of demanding someone else do so?


Why do you ignore the conspiracy to smear Hillary Clinton with fabrications and lies?


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Hillary doesn't have the information. It is on Anthony Wiener's laptop.


I'll bet they have to wear welding goggles when they inspect that laptop under ultraviolet light.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Is there any information in this post? Seriously? I don't see any. It is 100% spin.
> 
> I appreciate that you share your opinion. I am sincere in this, however, you've just done the equivalent of connecting your morning bowl movement with the number of cats in Portugal.
> 
> It is clear that for you, someone clearing their throat would prove your view that Clinton is corrupt.
> 
> The media posted about finding the new email before Clinton knew herself (according to her at a press conference she learned about it from the news). The original email scandal was covered extensively, too.
> 
> The original Benghazi hearing was covered extensively too, but coverage tapered off as the hearing odometer got out toward the double digits.
> 
> At some point, it's not a conspiracy but a realization that there is an attempt to manipulate the dialog with misinformation. Look at the sheer amount of fabrications that you present. You see a Hillary Clinton scandal behind every bush. We are not part of the conspiracy if we dismiss the posts of yourself and Nelley as the rantings of psychotic individuals.


You forgot to mention that the former assistant FBI director is also a "psychotic individual"-I am sure you agree that anyone who can actually see that this Sick Demented Criminal Puppet is the emperor without clothes is a "psychotic individual".


----------



## sags

The former assistant FBI director is a Republican, an ardent Trump supporter, and is desperate to stop Clinton from winning.

He would say she was the devil and smelled of a hint of sulpher............if it helped Trump get elected.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> James Comey's letter to Congress said...we found some emails on Anthony Weiner's laptop that might have something to do with something, but we don't know if they do or not.
> 
> All he was doing was updating Congress....and the media and Republicans have tried to explode it into some huge new treasure trove of information.
> 
> Hillary Clinton says to release the information to the public. Why not just do that ?
> 
> This will go one of two ways for the Republicans.
> 
> Either there is new damning emails and information about Hillary Clinton's treatment of classified information and she will be in serious trouble, or there is nothing and the Republicans will have totally destroyed their credibility and voters will turn away from them permanently.


HAHAHAHA-this sick grifter hid all her dirty laundry from authorities and now she is demanding they release it! She has got the chutzpah for sure.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Why do you ignore the conspiracy to smear Hillary Clinton with fabrications and lies?


I bet this broad has never even learned how to use email-those bible thumpers cooked the whole thing up-you are not as insane as you appear.


----------



## sags

The Democrats are better poker players. They are calling the Republicans bluff.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> The former assistant FBI director is a Republican, an ardent Trump supporter, and is desperate to stop Clinton from winning.
> 
> He would say she was the devil and smelled of a hint of sulpher............if it helped Trump get elected.


I have cellphone pictures of Comey and Putin-I saw them together at a Russian restaurant in TO with Weiner and some broads.


----------



## sags

The bluff is called............turn over the cards...........let's see what they got.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> The bluff is called............turn over the cards...........let's see what they got.


Meanwhile the head of the DOJ-Loretta Lynch is taking the fifth like John Gotti or ****** Bulger-truly epic.


----------



## Argonaut

The polls are starting to swing bigly towards Trump. Hillary trolls had previously called the election, but a wise man once said it's not over 'till it's over. Many people are asking how they can change their early-voting choice. Some states allow you to do this. I think it'll be tight, but Trump will win, I'll get my payday, and we can throw that grenade into the White House and shakeup the crooked political system.

It may come down to enthusiasm. Trump supporters have always been more enthused about their candidate. He fills stadiums, Hillary can't even fill a high-school hallway. And that was before the email scandal was resurrected. Need to flip something like Pennsylvania though.


----------



## sags

CNN's GPS show had interviews interviews with 4 former world government officials that dealt with Clinton as Secretary of State.

Poland, France, UK, and Singapore were represented and asked what the world view of the election was.

Their united response.......Clinton is extremely intelligent, is the best listener they ever met, and is very knowledgeable and thoughtful.

Their united response on Trump...........a disaster in foreign policy, a danger to the world, and too friendly with Putin.


----------



## Nelley

Argonaut said:


> The polls are starting to swing bigly towards Trump. Hillary trolls had previously called the election, but a wise man once said it's not over 'till it's over. Many people are asking how they can change their early-voting choice. Some states allow you to do this. I think it'll be tight, but Trump will win, I'll get my payday, and we can throw that grenade into the White House and shakeup the crooked political system.
> 
> It may come down to enthusiasm. Trump supporters have always been more enthused about their candidate. He fills stadiums, Hillary can't even fill a high-school hallway. And that was before the email scandal was resurrected. Need to flip something like Pennsylvania though.


If Bernie Sanders had any brains he would withdraw his endorsement immediately-this sick grifter is making the guy look really bad.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> CNN's GPS show had interviews interviews with 4 former world government officials that dealt with Clinton as Secretary of State.
> 
> Poland, France, UK, and Singapore were represented and asked what the world view of the election was.
> 
> Their united response.......Clinton is extremely intelligent, is the best listener they ever met, and is very knowledgeable and thoughtful.
> 
> Their united response on Trump...........a disaster in foreign policy, a danger to the world, and too friendly with Putin.



They are part of the same gang, what do you expect them to say?


----------



## bass player

One has to wonder just how much corruption has to be uncovered before a prominent Democrat has the moral decency to publicly break ties with her. So far, they are all continuing to support this morally corrupt individual who may face criminal charges.


----------



## tygrus

I suggest a new ticket, Bernie with Trump as VP.

Right now the best outcome is trump loses and clinton is impeached within her first 6 months. She is just as unqualified as Trump. 30+ yrs in public service and she still cannot follow protocol.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> The FBI examined something like 80,000 emails and found 3 that were questionable.



The above post is factually incorrect.
According to Comey's July 5th there were a lot more than than 3 that were classified.



> From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, *110 e-mails* in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about *2,000* additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent.
> ......
> 
> With respect to the thousands of e-mails we found that were not among those produced to State, agencies have concluded that *three* of those were classified at the time they were sent or received, one at the Secret level and two at the Confidential level. There were no additional Top Secret e-mails found. Finally, none of those we found have since been “up-classified.”


So 110+2000+3=2,113 classified email were sent or received By Clinton on her private server,a far cry from 3 as alleged above.


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> Their united response on Trump...........a disaster in foreign policy, a danger to the world, and too friendly with Putin.


You know its been my experience when countries sabre rattle, they want something very simple - just to be talked to and respected. Thats all Putin probably wants. Instead he has had the US and EU puffing their chests all around him. Trump is right just go talk to the guy. We talked to Iran and got some deal. The deals are harder to get the more tough we try to act. I have heard that NK has wanted a peace settlement for yrs and the US wont talk. They are hoping the regime collapses and then they can move their base right up to the chinese border.


----------



## sags

"Have been determined" means those are after the fact determinations by the owning agencies.

At the time the emails were sent they weren't marked as classified. 

The 2000 emails were "upclassified" after they were sent/received.

People want to convict Clinton of sending/receiving classified information that wasn't classified at the time she sent or received them.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Hillary Clinton says to release the information to the public. Why not just do that ?


That ploy is obviously not sincere. She knows he won't release the emails on Huma's shared laptop. He doesn't have to and he won't. He doesn't have to help her campaign which he has seriously damaged already with his letter to Congress on Oct. 28th.

Hillary knows more than Comey what is on Huma's laptop. She just has to ask her. How come Huma hasn't made a public statement to exonerate herself and Hillary?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> "Have been determined" means those are after the fact determinations by the owning agencies.
> 
> At the time the emails were sent they weren't marked as classified.
> 
> The 2000 emails were "upclassified" after they were sent/received.
> 
> People want to convict Clinton of sending/receiving classified information that wasn't classified at the time she sent or received them.


It was her responsibility to know by the content whether or not the information was classified, whether or not it was identified as such. I worked in a job that dealt with confidential information for 3 decades. Everyone in my position knew that confidential information was confidential, regardless of whether it was marked as such. If she is unable to determine the difference between classified and non-classified, it simply proves that she was woefully unqualified for the position she held.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump would be the Neville Chamberlain of modern times.

_Peace in our time_.........._Peace with Hitler_.........._Appeasement_

Here is what Sir Winston Churchill thought about Neville Chamberlain and would likely think the same of Donald Trump.


----------



## agent99

Think it's possible Huma or her husband set up their mail accounts to use IMAP, as many of us do?

I know my emails are duplicated on four different devices. On top of that, both my own and my wife's emails are accessible on our ISP's IMAP servers, gmail and outlook.com. Could be that is all they have found. The NY FBI investigators wouldn't have known the emails were duplicates, so rightly passed them on to the Hillary email team. 

But until someone looks at these and compares them with previously disclosed emails, everyone is blowing smoke and at a most inopportune time for America as a whole.


----------



## mordko

This is punditry, so take it for what it's worth...

- Clinton will win unless she drop dead. Absolutely nothing has changed, there is no new information to impact the entrenched views. We had heard about the emails before.
- Trump will bring out the Clinton vote. Only a self-hating woman would vote for Trump. Or a Latino. Or a veteran. Anyone who cares about democracy would oppose Trump who threatened to put opponent into prison, stated he wont' accept elections, admires foreign dictators and promises to close down Saturday Night Live. 
- Uneducated blue colour white males have suffered with their incomes going down dramatically, life expectancy going down, etc... They are angry. That's Trump's base. Simply not enough of them to win a general election. 
- Clinton is detested among Republicans, but a large proportion of them will stay at home or even vote for her. Trump has achieved that. 

The only question is whether Clinton will win by a large margin, taking long-term red states like Arizona, or if Trump gets a "respectable" ~-2% result vs Hillary. In the latter case the Republican party is going to be screwed for a while. In the former case one hopes they will regroup for 2020.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> "Have been determined" means those are after the fact determinations by the owning agencies.
> 
> At the time the emails were sent they weren't marked as classified.
> 
> The 2000 emails were "upclassified" after they were sent/received.
> 
> People want to convict Clinton of sending/receiving classified information that wasn't classified at the time she sent or received them.


The fact that they weren't marked is irrelevant. They do not have to marked classified to be classified.'upclassified' is still classified. Clinton was just blowing smoke to confuse people when she said they were not marked.Clinton had the authority to classify emails herself. 

A lesser mortal would have been charged.



Comey said:


> Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information.
> 
> For example, seven e-mail chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program level when they were sent and received. These chains involved Secretary Clinton both sending e-mails about those matters and receiving e-mails from others about the same matters. There is evidence to support a conclusion that any reasonable person in Secretary Clinton’s position, or in the position of those government employees with whom she was corresponding about these matters, should have known that an unclassified system was no place for that conversation. In addition to this highly sensitive information, we also found information that was properly classified as Secret by the U.S. Intelligence Community at the time it was discussed on e-mail (that is, excluding the later “up-classified” e-mails).


7 email chains sent and received by Clinton contained Top Secret/Special Access material. He couldn't prove intent but she was extremely careless. It sure is strange she was not prosecuted.


----------



## sags

If the Democrats steer to the left to placate Bernie Sanders supporters, which appears inevitable, there is an opportunity for the Republicans to occupy the center of the political spectrum.

If they are wise enough to make the shift, or will continue to coddle the right wing elements of their party remains to be seen.

I suppose it is what the big battle within the GOP will be all about.


----------



## bass player

agent99 said:


> Think it's possible Huma or her husband set up their mail accounts to use IMAP, as many of us do?
> 
> I know my emails are duplicated on four different devices. On top of that, both my own and my wife's emails are accessible on our ISP's IMAP servers, gmail and outlook.com. Could be that is all they have found. The NY FBI investigators wouldn't have known the emails were duplicates, so rightly passed them on to the Hillary email team.


So what? You and your wife's emails are not dealing with classified and secret government information and are not subject to the same security rules. No one care how many devices they were on. If you had ever held a position where you dealt with classified and secret information, you would not be allowed to use a system that duplicated those emails on several different devices.

What a pathetic comparison...


----------



## sags

_He couldn't prove intent but she was extremely careless. It sure is strange she was not prosecuted._

That answered your question. Intent to commit a criminal offense is an element of the charge that must be proven for a conviction.

Careless.......yes. Criminal.......no.

Clinton was deficient in her understanding and knowledge of email security matters. She had plenty of other things to focus her attention on.

She should have employed a top level internet security team to handle it for her, and no doubt she will as President.

Hacking, most notably Russian, Chinese, and Iranian hacking has become much more prominent in recent years.

Clinton will have to deal with that issue as well. 

She has already warned Putin and others....if they want to play that game, the US has the best hackers in the world.

The NSA owns the book on hacking.


----------



## sags

Classified.........not classified, there is no such thing as a totally secure system.

Unless all government emails were sent and received physically within top level secure environments, they could be hacked.

Anything transmitted from device to device is in danger of hacking.

That is the point of least security and highest weakness.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> _He couldn't prove intent but she was extremely careless. It sure is strange she was not prosecuted._
> 
> That answered your question. Intent to commit a criminal offense is an element of the charge that must be proven for a conviction.
> 
> Careless.......yes. Criminal.......no.


She didn't "accidently" delete 33,000 emails after being asked to provide them. She deliberately deleted them, and that was a criminal action.



sags said:


> Clinton was deficient in her understanding and knowledge of email security matters. She had plenty of other things to focus her attention on.
> 
> She should have employed a top level internet security team to handle it for her, and no doubt she will as President.


Top level security people are provided to ALL government people who require secure devices. She deliberately chose not to use them. That proves there was an intent to circumvent the rules.

Please stop making pathetic excuses for her deliberate actions to break the law. No one buys it any more.


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> _Careless.......yes. Criminal.......no.
> _


_

Goes to her judgement. You are give a top cabinet post and you decide to use your own server for work. Would any employer not fire you if you did that? If she was any intern or rookie in washington and did that she would be blackballed for life.

The first day on any job, one of the first people you meet is IT security where they set you up your work email account, logins passwords protocols etc. Clinton decided that wasn't for her and did her own thing. Doesn't sound like a misstep from someone wanting to be president. Sounds like someone wanting to control all the details herself and keep her secret ring going without records. How else was she able to delete 33,000 emails?_


----------



## sags

It wouldn't matter where Clinton was or how secure her system would be.......if she is receiving and sending email messages all over the world to people in less secure environments.

People forget there are two ends or more to the emails...........the sender and the receiver.

Hackers look for the weakness and vulnerability anywhere in between.


----------



## sags

tygrus said:


> Goes to her judgement. You are give a top cabinet post and you decide to use your own server for work. Would any employer not fire you if you did that? If she was any intern or rookie in washington and did that she would be blackballed for life.
> 
> The first day on any job, one of the first people you meet is IT security where they set you up your work email account, logins passwords protocols etc. Clinton decided that wasn't for her and did her own thing. Doesn't sound like a misstep from someone wanting to be president. Sounds like someone wanting to control all the details herself and keep her secret ring going without records. How else was she able to delete 33,000 emails?


As an employee, you would be doing your work from one location.

How would Hillary Clinton, who is traveling all over the world and talking to thousands of people all the time, be on a totally secure system ?

Do people think Clinton lived at the State Department, sat in an office all day at the State Department and never left the building ?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> It wouldn't matter where Clinton was or how secure her system would be.......if she is receiving and sending email messages all over the world to people in less secure environments.
> 
> People forget there are two ends or more to the emails...........the sender and the receiver.


Who is forgetting? In Hillary's case, she was the sender of classified and secret information from an illegal private email server. If someone else received emails from her and treated them incorrectly, then they were also in violation of the law.

If you had a point, I'm not sure what it was...


----------



## olivaw

The Hillary haters are out in force trying to litigate a fictitious case against Hillary. Do we have lawyers on this forum or just wishful thinkers hoping that this will amount to something. 

Trump is unfit. He'd be the first president who has been condemned by most world leaders before assuming office. He'd be required to appear in court as a defendant in a rape case and a fraud case. He has ties to Russia, including to fascist elements in that country. He has been objectively found to lie more than any presidential candidate in history. He has a history of shading business practices. He lacks a rudimentary knowledge of current affairs. He lost three of three debates. 

No contest. We won't know the impact of Comey's ill-considered letter on the polls until mid-week but it shouldn't matter. Hillary Clinton is a serious candidate. Trump is a clown.


----------



## sags

Why do people think the US and Russia have a direct link security hardened telephone line between them ? 

Why do people think there is a direct link security hardened telephone line between the President and the missile launch facilities ?

Why do they think they don't just send emails on a "secure" server ?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> As an employee, you would be doing your work from one location.
> 
> How would Hillary Clinton, who is traveling all over the world and talking to thousands of people all the time, be on a totally secure system ?
> 
> Do people think Clinton lived at the State Department, sat in an office all day at the State Department and never left the building ?


So what? The US govt. IT department provides somewhat secure devices for staff that deal with secret and classified information...and many of those people travel all over the world. It's not like Hillary was the first person to do so.

Again...what point are you trying to make?


----------



## wraphter

tygrus said:


> You know its been my experience when countries sabre rattle, they want something very simple - just to be talked to and respected. Thats all Putin probably wants. Instead he has had the US and EU puffing their chests all around him. Trump is right just go talk to the guy. We talked to Iran and got some deal. The deals are harder to get the more tough we try to act. I have heard that NK has wanted a peace settlement for yrs and the US wont talk. They are hoping the regime collapses and then they can move their base right up to the chinese border.


The time for talking to Putin has long passed. There is only one language he understands: military force and economic sanctions.

He must be deterred from future aggression not through palaver but through concrete actions.


Do you think that his admiration and caring for a Siberian tiger doesn't reveal his personality and need for violence?
Do you think his need to assert his machismo is not significant and a predictor of future behaviour?

His position in Russia is not secure. He has created a military force of 400,000 responsible to only him. He fears a coup.He knows who shot down the Malaysian passenger plane. It was done with a Russian BUK missile which then went back to Russia. He sees Qaddafi 
dying in a culvert and he doesn't want it to happen to him. He is responsible for the indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Syria and also helped
the Syrians bomb the aid convoy sent to Aleppo.

On Russian TV,the chief media channel, there is talk of nuclear war.
There has been nuclear war drills involving 40 million people in which they go into bomb shelters.
The government is trying to make the population afraid . Blame an external enemy to distract them from their plight at home.

There is no political freedom and freedom of speech in Russia. Journalists end up dead.

Nemtsov ,an opposition politician was shot and killed right in front of the Kremlin walls as he walked home with his girlfriend.

There is no moral equivalence between Russia and the US.
There is more freedom in the US and the economy is better. 

Sorry, the time for milk and cookies has long passed.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Who is forgetting? In Hillary's case, she was the sender of classified and secret information from an illegal private email server. If someone else received emails from her and treated them incorrectly, then they were also in violation of the law.
> 
> If you had a point, I'm not sure what it was...


The private server wasn't illegal. Colin Powell used a private server. 

Sending or receiving classified material on a private server is illegal.....if the intent to do so is deemed to be criminal.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> So what? The US govt. IT department provides somewhat secure devices for staff that deal with secret and classified information...and many of those people travel all over the world. It's not like Hillary was the first person to do so.
> 
> Again...what point are you trying to make?


There is no such thing as a secure mobile device. Germany's Angela Merkel's blackberry got hacked.


----------



## sags

Interesting show on the Passionate Eye, examining the rise of ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

After Obama ordered the US troops to leave, largely because the Iraqi government didn't want them to stay, it created a vacuum that ISIS moved into and exploited in accordance with their long held plans to seize upon any opportunity to expand.

As ISIS started to expand into Syria, some members of the US administration urged President Obama to arm and assist the rebels against ISIS immediately, and to consider them a growing threat.

Hillary Clinton (Secretary of State) and Leon Panetta (Director of CIA and Secretary of Defense) were among those who urged the President to intervene quickly while ISIS was still gathering strength and was an easy target in the open desert.

President Obama deferred to intervene and ISIS grew from a few hundred members to tens of thousands over the next year.

After a year, President Obama agreed with Hillary Clinton and the others and provided support for the rebels. 

It was too late as ISIS had already established themselves in major cities in Iraq and Syria.

The key takeaway is that Hillary Clinton was on top of the situation from the outset.

Had her advice been taken in the beginning, ISIS would not have grown to the threat they ultimately became.

It was a comprehension failure by Obama, not of Clinton........that ISIS was allowed to grow.

Clinton will definitely be more hawkish than Obama. Putin understands this and would rather face a weak Donald Trump.

In the animal world, some predators always wear a smile. It usually means the opposite of what it suggests.

Putin's smile is the smile of a predator.........like a Great White shark.


----------



## sags

As a starter against ISIS............Hillary Clinton says the US will hunt down and kill ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

The Director of the CIA confirmed it is of the highest priority for them, and they have already had several opportunities to strike, but ISIS is careful to ensure that the collateral damage would have been too high for the US to accept.

The Director said the outcome is guaranteed. It is just a matter of when.

Cruise missile or drone attack........Bakr al-Baghadi's days on this earth are winding down.


----------



## sags

Trump's plan is to cuddle up to Putin and talk nicely to him.

Maybe Trump could get the leaders of Russia, China, Iran and North Korea together for a group hug and solve all problems.


----------



## bass player

Maybe Weiner is trying to cut a deal to avoid prosecution...after all, people who go after underage girls don't do very well in prison. Dishing up some dirt on Hillary and/or Huma might be a way to avoid jail time.


----------



## indexxx

wraphter said:


> Do you think his need to assert his machismo is not significant and a predictor of future behaviour?


Same for Trump.


----------



## olivaw

Nate Sliver *analyses of the impact* of "October Surprises". These events may move the polls a point or two but they have never previously had a significant impact on the trajectory or the outcome of a presidential election. 


> People are already calling it an “October surprise” — an unexpected moment late in the campaign that could change the trajectory of the election. The news that the FBI is looking into a new batch of Hillary Clinton’s emails (found on the computer of Anthony Weiner) is certainly surprising. And it came in October. But it will take several days to measure its effect on the race, and the real surprise would be a wild swing in the polls. That’s because even the most memorable October surprises of recent history weren’t the game-changers they’re sometimes portrayed to be.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Cruise missile or drone attack........Bakr al-Baghadi's days on this earth are winding down.


Not so easy to find.

Since 9/11 it took 10 years to find and kill bin Laden. 12 years since put on the FBI's most wanted list in 1999.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> It was a comprehension failure by Obama, not of Clinton........that ISIS was allowed to grow.
> 
> Putin's smile is the smile of a predator.........like a Great White shark.


But Obama had been against the war in Iraq, and also the one who failed to recognize the danger of Putin. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRxbFcAGfvM


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> "Have been determined" means those are after the fact determinations by the owning agencies.
> 
> At the time the emails were sent they weren't marked as classified.
> 
> The 2000 emails were "upclassified" after they were sent/received.
> 
> People want to convict Clinton of sending/receiving classified information that wasn't classified at the time she sent or received them.


You are either really dense or a troll-this sick grifter destroyed 33000 emails-so she missed destroying some-they obviously destroyed any they thought were incriminating. Jeez.


----------



## Nelley

agent99 said:


> Think it's possible Huma or her husband set up their mail accounts to use IMAP, as many of us do?
> 
> I know my emails are duplicated on four different devices. On top of that, both my own and my wife's emails are accessible on our ISP's IMAP servers, gmail and outlook.com. Could be that is all they have found. The NY FBI investigators wouldn't have known the emails were duplicates, so rightly passed them on to the Hillary email team.
> 
> But until someone looks at these and compares them with previously disclosed emails, everyone is blowing smoke and at a most inopportune time for America as a whole.


This sick grifter is under criminal investigation by the FBI-really not that common for a candidate 10 days from the election-as usual you are the idiot blowing smoke.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> This is punditry, so take it for what it's worth...
> 
> - Clinton will win unless she drop dead. Absolutely nothing has changed, there is no new information to impact the entrenched views. We had heard about the emails before.
> - Trump will bring out the Clinton vote. Only a self-hating woman would vote for Trump. Or a Latino. Or a veteran. Anyone who cares about democracy would oppose Trump who threatened to put opponent into prison, stated he wont' accept elections, admires foreign dictators and promises to close down Saturday Night Live.
> - Uneducated blue colour white males have suffered with their incomes going down dramatically, life expectancy going down, etc... They are angry. That's Trump's base. Simply not enough of them to win a general election.
> - Clinton is detested among Republicans, but a large proportion of them will stay at home or even vote for her. Trump has achieved that.
> 
> The only question is whether Clinton will win by a large margin, taking long-term red states like Arizona, or if Trump gets a "respectable" ~-2% result vs Hillary. In the latter case the Republican party is going to be screwed for a while. In the former case one hopes they will regroup for 2020.


The only thing you accomplish with your endlessly stupid posts is to make guys like Olivaw look halfway intelligent.


----------



## sags

This cat hearing that Trump gained a couple of points in the polls.

[video]http://i.imgur.com/S9HjajB.gifv[/video]


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> You are either really dense or a troll-this sick grifter destroyed 33000 emails-so she missed destroying some-they obviously destroyed any they thought were incriminating. Jeez.


Clinton didn't destroy anything. Some computer security firm pushed the wrong button.


----------



## agent99

bass player said:


> What a pathetic comparison...


Aren't you the polite one ? It's you that is is pathetic. Why can't you respond in a civil way?

ADDED: Excuse the question - I didn't realize you were a Trump supporter.


----------



## TomB19

He has a propensity for going low.


----------



## bass player

agent99 said:


> Aren't you the polite one ? It's you that is is pathetic. Why can't you respond in a civil way?


You made a direct comparison between you and your wife's emails and top secret and classified emails. I correctly called that a pathetic comparison and you got offended that I would dare to question such a silly comparison?

Perhaps you should grow up and act like a responsible adult instead of whining when your flawed reasoning is questioned.

Once again...that's pathetic and I don't care if you're offended. If you don't want to be offended, then don't make comments that require people to correct you. Or, go hide in your safe space and quiver with indignation until you feel better...


----------



## olivaw

*yawn* Hillary's email server. 

The fast and furious investigation and congressional hearings went nowhere.

The Eric Holder contempt of congress hearing went nowhere.

The 33 Benghazi hearings went nowhere. 

The email server hearings will probably go nowhere too.


----------



## sags

You forgot Trump's 4th quarter come back. It is going nowhere too.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> You made a direct comparison between you and your wife's emails and top secret and classified emails. I correctly called that a pathetic comparison and you got offended that I would dare to question such a silly comparison?
> 
> Perhaps you should grow up and act like a responsible adult instead of whining when your flawed reasoning is questioned.
> 
> Once again...that's pathetic and I don't care if you're offended. If you don't want to be offended, then don't make comments that require people to correct you. Or, go hide in your safe space and quiver with indignation until you feel better...


Quit trying to bully other posters. You're free to post your uneducated drivel but you are not free to insult and demean more reasonable posters.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> You forgot Trump's 4th quarter come back. It is going nowhere too.


LOL.


----------



## indexxx

agent99 said:


> Aren't you the polite one ? It's you that is is pathetic. Why can't you respond in a civil way?
> 
> ADDED: Excuse the question - I didn't realize you were a Trump supporter.


I've watched this thread since its inception, and it is completely and unequivocally clear that a couple of the hard-line right posters are here to insult and troll, nothing more. There is no point in trying to be polite or reasonable with them, or ask why they behave like snarky assholes- that is exactly what they are on here for; to anger and inflame other people. I've notice that when a reasonable question is politely asked, it is almost always ignored, or else the asker is personally insulted and called childish names (bubblehead, Einstein, idiot, sheep, etc.). Seriously- who does moronic **** like that? It's all part of pushing buttons for a reactionary response. It's like trying to argue with a drunk- it's no-win, so the answer is simply not to feed the trolls. Civility is the last thing on their mind- it's all about poking people in the eye for laughs. Kind of sadistic but that's life online sometimes; all one needs to do is look at all the asinine jackass garbage all over the place and realize that there are simply a lot of douchelords out there who get their kicks putting other people down. It's just another form of bullying. If you were in the same room with one of them and asked them why they behave like that, their answer would be "F$#k you, that's why!". Nice- god help us if they breed.

You can't expect reasonable behaviour from unreasonable people.


----------



## new dog

mordko said:


> This is punditry, so take it for what it's worth...
> 
> - Clinton will win unless she drop dead. Absolutely nothing has changed, there is no new information to impact the entrenched views. We had heard about the emails before.
> - Trump will bring out the Clinton vote. Only a self-hating woman would vote for Trump. Or a Latino. Or a veteran. Anyone who cares about democracy would oppose Trump who threatened to put opponent into prison, stated he wont' accept elections, admires foreign dictators and promises to close down Saturday Night Live.
> - Uneducated blue colour white males have suffered with their incomes going down dramatically, life expectancy going down, etc... They are angry. That's Trump's base. Simply not enough of them to win a general election.
> - Clinton is detested among Republicans, but a large proportion of them will stay at home or even vote for her. Trump has achieved that.
> 
> The only question is whether Clinton will win by a large margin, taking long-term red states like Arizona, or if Trump gets a "respectable" ~-2% result vs Hillary. In the latter case the Republican party is going to be screwed for a while. In the former case one hopes they will regroup for 2020.


How would voting in a criminal like Hillary help democracy in any way. There are a lot of problems in the US that people voting for Trump are hoping to bring forward in some way. Voting for Hillary is a vote for more of the same and taking us away from democracy one can argue because of all the numerous problems we have written about here on this thread.


----------



## TomB19

For those who enjoy debate, Nelley and bass player have been excellent foils.

They are here for our amusement.

I believe bass player is sincere. He has views that deserve to be respected.

In Nelley's case, he has been a good sport. That's why I love him. lol!


----------



## bass player

Progressives always get upset or offended when someone dares to question their thinking or when someone points out they were factually wrong. We see exactly the same thinking when more information comes out about Hillary...her supporters get upset that the new information might hurt her chances, but they never, ever seem to get upset at what she did wrong in the first place.

The wrong people are being called unreasonable.


----------



## agent99

bass player said:


> Once again...that's pathetic and I don't care if you're offended.


You have confirmed my opinion of you as a person. Must be tough being like that. I feel for you.

For those who may be interested, the idea that the emails got onto Wiener's laptop via IMAP or Exchange was also brought up in this link where Adam Yoshida, with a background in information technology consulting for affluent and powerful people emails is quoted:



> I’d think one of two things:
> 
> 1) Either that Huma signed in her e-mail account at one point and, presumably, it being Exchange or IMAP, dumped the whole account onto the computer and that account has plenty of e-mails between her and Clinton that were deleted.
> 
> Or -
> 
> 2) There’s mention of Huma having a Yahoo account to which she would forward things for printing purposes. This struck me right away because, of course, printers are often difficult to configure as are e-mail accounts. It struck me as strange, yet very believable, that she mentioned that she’d forward stuff to that Yahoo account to print them. I mean, printing in theory should be platform agnostic, but - if you’re technically unsophisticated - you might have serious problems trying to setup an e-mail account or a printer on a device. Thus I imagine a scenario where she has a portable machine that either she can’t (or can’t be, for some reason) configured to use her home printer and a desktop machine (I imagine an slightly-older iMac here) that’s physically connected to the printer that serves as a shared “family computer” or whatever. She either can’t setup the e-mail account on that computer (perhaps it requires a VPN or something like that) or doesn’t want to, so she forwards everything that she wants to print to the Yahoo account that she does have setup on that computer. The FBI takes this computer as part of the Weiner investigation and, bam, they find thousands of e-mail messages - again, evidence of what was destroyed earlier.


----------



## new dog

I do find that everything Hillary does wrong is blamed on someone else, like Putin for example. Or people agree with the wrong thing she says like deplorable to explain Trump supporters so it somehow makes it right. Trump says anything at all and there is no defence, it is all on him.


----------



## bass player

agent99 said:


> You have confirmed my opinion of you as a person. Must be tough being like that. I feel for you.


And you confirmed my opinion of progressives...they get offended every time someone dares to point out that they were wrong and immediately resort to insults. Remember...it was YOU who compared you and your wife's emails to secret and confidential government emails that require an entirely different level of security. And it was YOU who got offended when the error in your thinking was pointed out.

You were wrong, but instead of admitting it or revising your opinion, you immediately resorted to insulting me.

It must be tough to live like that...


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> In Nelley's case, he has been a good sport. That's why I love him. lol!



nelley is a she

c'mon tom when did you ever see a guy wite like wittle nellie


.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> I've watched this thread since its inception, and it is completely and unequivocally clear that a couple of the hard-line right posters are here to insult and troll, nothing more. There is no point in trying to be polite or reasonable with them, or ask why they behave like snarky assholes- that is exactly what they are on here for; to anger and inflame other people. I've notice that when a reasonable question is politely asked, it is almost always ignored, or else the asker is personally insulted and called childish names (bubblehead, Einstein, idiot, sheep, etc.). Seriously- who does moronic **** like that? It's all part of pushing buttons for a reactionary response. It's like trying to argue with a drunk- it's no-win, so the answer is simply not to feed the trolls. Civility is the last thing on their mind- it's all about poking people in the eye for laughs. Kind of sadistic but that's life online sometimes; all one needs to do is look at all the asinine jackass garbage all over the place and realize that there are simply a lot of douchelords out there who get their kicks putting other people down. It's just another form of bullying. If you were in the same room with one of them and asked them why they behave like that, their answer would be "F$#k you, that's why!". Nice- god help us if they breed.
> 
> You can't expect reasonable behaviour from unreasonable people.


I have used those terms but as far as I know I have only used those terms in response to clearly absurd/stupid posts. Usually the posts are so stupid I think maybe you guys are just trolling. Try to take some responsibility for the truly idiotic stuff you guys post all the time-look up this thread-one of your gang is claiming 33000 of Hillary's emails got deleted and bleached by a single button push by a computer security firm in error-this is the level of intellect of what people like you are posting here.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> nelley is a she
> 
> c'mon tom when did you ever see a guy wite like wittle nellie
> 
> 
> .


LOOK-this is Kathleen Wynne's Ontario-we can self identify as anything we want-at least you didn't call me a crazy gorilla like last time.


----------



## humble_pie

^^


see what i mean tom? guys don't pout like this

i don't believe i mentioned crazy gorilla though
i believe the word was primate

.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump is gaining ground on Hillary Clinton.

At this rate, he has a reasonable chance of catching up to her..............by June 2017.


----------



## new dog

Humble you should have taken credit for that, crazy gorilla does sound pretty funny. Nelly was being a good sport there on that one I have to admit.

Someone mentioned bullying earlier and I don't think there is many of us here who can be pushed around. The vast majority of the people here on this thread from what I can see can carry themselves pretty well.


----------



## olivaw

*Harry Reid claims that the FBI is sitting on proof of Trump's ties to Russia*. 



> “In my communications with you and other top officials in the national security community, it has become clear that you possess explosive information about close ties and coordination between Donald Trump, his top advisors, and the Russian government - a foreign interest openly hostile to the United States, which Trump praises at every opportunity,” he said. “I wrote to you months ago calling for this information to be released to the public...and yet, you continue to resist calls to inform the public of this critical information.”


Reid also claims that Comey is in violation of the Hatch Act. He offered no real evidence but allegation without evidence is the way things are done lately.


----------



## olivaw

Wondering why Trump supporters are so cranky? Problem solved. *Trump supporters can't get a date*. 



> But in the dating world, Trump has emerged – in a twisted way – as a something of a helpful force, serving as a litmus test for singles hoping to filter out potential mates who find the billionaire’s message appealing.
> 
> And some women say that filter has become even more imperative since the early October release of a 2005 “Access Hollywood” tape in which Trump was caught on a hot mic boasting about being able to grab women’s genitals without consequence because he’s “a star.”


----------



## agent99

indexxx said:


> You can't expect reasonable behaviour from unreasonable people.


I guess not. Luckily we don't HAVE to read their posts.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> *Harry Reid claims that the FBI is sitting on proof of Trump's ties to Russia*.
> 
> 
> 
> Reid also claims that Comey is in violation of the Hatch Act. He offered no real evidence but allegation without evidence is the way things are done lately.


Of course, in the interest of fairness, one also has to ask what Hillary received in return for the multi-millions in donations from countries that are openly hostile to the US. But, Harry Reid doesn't care about what Hillary may have done, does he?

If he cared, he would be asking why did Saudi Arabia give millions to The Clinton Foundation, and what did the king of Morocco get in exchange for his $12 million donation to the Clinton Foundation?


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Wondering why Trump supporters are so cranky? Problem solved. *Trump supporters can't get a date*.


How do these women explain their support for a woman married to sexual predator Bill Clinton?


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> How do these women explain their support for a woman married to sexual predator Bill Clinton?


It could be fair to say Bill was a philanderer, but there is no evidence that he was a sexual predator like Trump.


----------



## TomB19

OK, let's temporarily interrupt the mud sling with this: A woman in Massachusetts staged a robbery and tagged her home with "BLM".

How do you think she will vote on November 8?


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> It could be fair to say Bill was a philanderer, but there is no evidence that he was a sexual predator like Trump.


So, why did the Clintons pay Paula Jones $850,000 if there was no evidence of sexual impropriety?

What evidence is there against Trump? All we have heard are unproven allegations and locker room talk.


----------



## mrPPincer

What locker room was that?

Miked up in a hollywood bus must be a different species of locker room than any I've been in.

BTW, go-away money for sexual impropriety or just go-away money, is not in any way proof that mr Clinton was anything other than a philanderer, if even that.


----------



## mrPPincer

TomB19 said:


> OK, let's temporarily interrupt the mud sling with this: A woman in Massachusetts staged a robbery and tagged her home with "BLM".
> 
> How do you think she will vote on November 8?


^Rhetorical ofc but wouldn't it be some effed up dark humour if there were enough crazies down there to actually vote that compulsive child/man in :uncomfortableness:


----------



## TomB19

Nelley would vote for this woman as Chief of Police.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Wondering why Trump supporters are so cranky? Problem solved. *Trump supporters can't get a date*.


We are not supposed to label you as a bubblehead, idiot, moron or sheep-so no comment on this one.


----------



## wraphter

mrPPincer said:


> It could be fair to say Bill was a philanderer, but there is no evidence that he was a sexual predator like Trump.


$850,000 to settle Paula Jones case.

Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein,convicted pedophile?


----------



## olivaw

^speaking of Jeffrey Epstein, I understand that he will be called to testify in Donald Trump's trial. The victim alleges that Trump attended one of Epstein's pedophile parties. 

Normally I wouldn't consider it relevant but it has become clear that certain participants in this thread believe that unproven allegations equal guilt.

Trump has settled numerous lawsuits. Normally a settlement doesn't equal guilt either but we've dispensed with such legal tedium in this thread - or so it seems.


----------



## olivaw

Nine days until Election Day. How are we supposed to know who to vote for if Trump hasn't released his tax returns yet.


----------



## indexxx

bass player said:


> Progressives always get upset or offended when someone dares to question their thinking or when someone points out they were factually wrong. We see exactly the same thinking when more information comes out about Hillary...her supporters get upset that the new information might hurt her chances, but they never, ever seem to get upset at what she did wrong in the first place.
> 
> The wrong people are being called unreasonable.


I have no problem with anyone's political leanings and open discussion is what it's all about. What I find unreasonable (and extremely rude and uncalled for) is the the continual, unrelenting personal attacks, denigration, and name-calling simply because one does not share the conservative viewpoint. We are not idiots, sheep, clueless, or anything else that is spewed forth in hatred- simply people sharing thoughts on a forum.

I've said this before here- it appears to me that the right has serious issues; there is so much vitriol and conviction about "if it comes from the left, one should automatically react with hate and anger." It's this very ingrained divisionism that is the real problem; it has the same roots as racism, religious hatred, or any other immediate gainsaying of another simply because they are different or don't agree. I just don't see it as much from the left. Personally, I thought McCain could have been a pretty good president, and I don't discount great leaders from the right in the future as I know there are decent, sharp, caring people on both sides of the spectrum. Would a god/flag/country Republican admit the same about the left? There's an attitude that "we have to dig in our f*cking heels NO MATTER WHAT" just to be contrary to Democrats- you can see it in the posts on this forum. I can only imagine how it's magnified exponentially as the chain goes up and up into government levels where prestige, jobs, reputation, and big money is involved. No wonder nothing gets done- everyone's all about their own ego.


----------



## indexxx

Nelley said:


> I have used those terms but as far as I know I have only used those terms in response to clearly absurd/stupid posts. Usually the posts are so stupid I think maybe you guys are just trolling. Try to take some responsibility for the truly idiotic stuff you guys post all the time-look up this thread-one of your gang is claiming 33000 of Hillary's emails got deleted and bleached by a single button push by a computer security firm in error-this is the level of intellect of what people like you are posting here.


Nelley, this is a reasonable post, however your final sentence is exactly my point. You do not know anything about me, yet you say 'the level of intellect of people like you." My IQ is in the 99th percentile of the population. That type of comment is just plain rude and disrespectful.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> ^speaking of Jeffrey Epstein, I understand that he will be called to testify in Donald Trump's trial. The victim alleges that Trump attended one of Epstein's pedophile parties.
> 
> Normally I wouldn't consider it relevant but it has become clear that certain participants in this thread believe that unproven allegations equal guilt.
> 
> Trump has settled numerous lawsuits. Normally a settlement doesn't equal guilt either but we've dispensed with such legal tedium in this thread - or so it seems.



What a lot of fatuous drivel and insinuations . 
A complete waste of bandwidth.

A drive -by post if there ever was one.

You are completely intellectually dishonest.

What did you prove? Nothing.

Where are the details on the Trump case?

Do some work man!

Where are the details on the Paula Jones case?

Don't you know how to google ,to get facts ,to elaborate an argument?

You supplied no new information to buttress your argument.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> What a lot of fatuous drivel and insinuations .
> A complete waste of bandwidth.
> 
> A drive -by post if there ever was one.
> 
> You are completely intellectually dishonest.
> 
> What did you prove? Nothing.
> 
> Where are the details on the Trump case?
> 
> Do some work man!
> 
> Where are the details on the Paula Jones case?
> 
> Don't you know how to google ,to get facts ,to elaborate an argument?
> 
> You supplied no new information to buttress your argument.


My intent was to illustrate exactly how most of your posts read. I'll consider the point made.


----------



## Nelley

indexxx said:


> Nelley, this is a reasonable post, however your final sentence is exactly my point. You do not know anything about me, yet you say 'the level of intellect of people like you." My IQ is in the 99th percentile of the population. That type of comment is just plain rude and disrespectful.


Sure-you are real smart-why don't you try posting something halfway intelligent once in a while? Listen-your last 3 long winded posts are just ridiculous-in fact I don't recall you ever even trying to post anything informative.


----------



## wraphter

Details of the Paula Jones settlement: 



> In the end, Independent Counsel Ray said:
> "The Independent Counsel’s judgment that sufficient evidence existed to prosecute President Clinton was confirmed by President Clinton’s admissions and by evidence showing that he engaged in conduct prejudicial to the administration of justice."
> More specifically, the Independent Counsel concluded that President Clinton testified falsely on three counts under oath in Clinton v. Jones. However, Ray chose to decline criminal prosecution in favor of what the Principles of Federal Prosecution call "alternative sanctions". This included being impeached:
> 
> "As a consequence of his conduct in the Jones v. Clinton civil suit and before the federal grand jury, President Clinton incurred significant administrative sanctions. The Independent Counsel considered seven non-criminal alternative sanctions that were imposed in making his decision to decline prosecution: (1) President Clinton’s admission of providing false testimony that was knowingly misleading, evasive, and prejudicial to the administration of justice before the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas; (2) his acknowledgement that his conduct violated the Rules of Professional Conduct of the Arkansas Supreme Court; (3) the five-year suspension of his license to practice law and $25,000 fine imposed on him by the Circuit Court of Pulaski County, Arkansas;* (4) the civil contempt penalty of more than $900,000 imposed on President Clinton by the federal court for violating its orders; (5) the payment of more than $850,000 in settlement to Paula Jones;* (6) the express finding by the federal court that President Clinton had engaged in contemptuous conduct; and (7) the substantial public condemnation of President Clinton arising from his impeachment."


In addition to the $850,000 to Paula Jones, there was a $900,000 civil contempt penalty .

Is it any surprise the Clinton Foundation was so sleazy?


Is it any surprise he went on board AG Loretta Lynch's airplane?

Bill got $500,000 for a speech in Moscow while in the Uranium One deal was being approved by the US govt.

And no, changing the subject to Trump's sleaziness isn't a sufficient answer.

The judge could have prosecuted him criminally.

Hillary stayed married to Bill.

Birds of a feather flock together.

Defend your sacred cow if you must.


----------



## sags

The timing of FBI Director Comey's letter to Congress is indeed strange.

The FBI has known about the emails for weeks, yet are only now asking a judge for a search warrant to examine the shared laptop.

How did FBI investigators know the laptop contained emails if they haven't examined it yet ?

Comey is under heavy pressure to release the emails publicly, but he can't because the FBI don't have them.

Strange things are afoot indeed.


----------



## TomB19

That's a wrap.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> Birds of a feather flock together.


Guilt by association is for people with extreme low morals.

I'm sure someone you've known or been with, at some point in your life, engaged in criminal activity. Let's lock you up for their wrongdoing. That appears to be the only method that might demonstrate how ignorant you are acting. Even at that, I'm not sure it would take.


----------



## olivaw

*Trump lawyers given court date over lawsuit alleging rape of 13-year-old. *. 



> A federal judge in New York has ordered counsel for Donald Trump and the disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein to appear in court along with the attorney for a woman referred to only as “Jane Doe” who alleges the Republican presidential nominee raped her when she was 13.
> 
> Judge Ronnie Abrams has slated an initial status conference in the civil lawsuit for 16 December in a New York district court.
> 
> The order raises the extraordinary prospect, were Trump to win the 8 November battle for the White House, of counsel for a US president-elect being called into federal court in proceedings relating to allegations of rape of an underage girl.


OFC, an unproven allegation should not be held against a candidate but it is a poor strategy for the Trump side to bring up Jeffrey Epstein. Glass houses and all that.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> Is it any surprise the Clinton Foundation was so sleazy?


This is a low, even for you. You are a sleaze bag.

The Clinton foundation has brought water to many millions of people in the third world, along with health care and education. With their work to fight AIDS, they might just keep you from getting it.

Between Bill Gates and Bill Clinton, the third world is a massively better place. To attempt to smear that work is really, really low.

Why don't you go back to making things up about Hillary? You could explain to us that all 30K emails are gross violations of national security. Also, I'd like you to explain to us how you have come to the conclusion she is guilty for sending email that is unclassified and later becomes classified by topic.

Step up. Give us a good laugh.


----------



## sags

The WSJ reports the FBI has 650,000 emails to go through.

This could take awhile...........probably more than 8 days.

Speaking of classified material, the US is releasing classified CIA documents about the JFK assassination in 2017.

Researchers are hoping there will be some new information that could shed light on what happened that day.


----------



## bass player

To one one's surprise...once again a weiner gets the Clinton's in trouble...


----------



## olivaw

*Fake news on this thread.*

Relevant to this thread ... *CNN Money: The plague of fake news is getting worse -- here's how to protect yourself* http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/30/media/facebook-fake-news-plague/



> A recent BuzzFeed study of "hyperpartisan Facebook pages" found that these pages "are consistently feeding their millions of followers false or misleading information."
> 
> The less truthful the content, the more frequently it was shared -- which does not bode well for the nation's news literacy during a long, bitter election season.
> 
> "Right-wing pages were more prone to sharing false or misleading information than left-wing pages," the BuzzFeed reporting team said.
> 
> On a few occasions, made-up or highly misleading stories have even snuck into Facebook's "trending" box -- a problem that the company says it is trying to address.
> 
> In a few cases, Trump aides and family members have themselves been duped by fake news stories, including a hoax version of ABC News with a story headlined "Donald Trump Protester Speaks Out: 'I Was Paid $3,500 To Protest Trump's Rally.'"


Most posters try to post honest, verified information. Unfortunately two or three frequent posters here tend towards promoting fake news stories.


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> Guilt by association is for people with extreme low morals.
> 
> I'm sure someone you've known or been with, at some point in your life, engaged in criminal activity. Let's lock you up for their wrongdoing. That appears to be the only method that might demonstrate how ignorant you are acting. Even at that, I'm not sure it would take.


Very poor post. You are getting personal . Too much ad hominem posting. Lack of respect for your fellow poster. Stick to the issues.

There is evidence that likes attract for a relationship to work.
So Bill and Hill Have the same moral deficiencies.

Birds of a feather really do flock together.



> Opposites DON'T attract: We're more drawn to like-minded people and couples with similar interests stay together longer
> How similar two people are plays an important role in future interactions
> Selecting partners with similar values could be a 'psychological default'
> Couples are especially similar on the things that matter most to them


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> *Trump lawyers given court date over lawsuit alleging rape of 13-year-old. *.
> 
> 
> 
> OFC, an unproven allegation should not be held against a candidate but it is a poor strategy for the Trump side to bring up Jeffrey Epstein. Glass houses and all that.


Trump side? Not me. Just your pejorative imagination. Typical smear from olivaw.

You strangely forgot to mention that this case was dismissed in California. 



> The woman — identified as Katie Johnson — filed documents in a California court on April 26, accusing Trump and billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein of “sexual abuse under threat of harm” and “conspiracy to deprive civil rights,” RadarOnline.com has exclusively learned.
> 
> She filed the lawsuit herself — without legal representation — and is suing for $100 million.
> 
> .............
> 
> According to RadarOnline's initial reporting, the lawsuit filed in California on 26 April 2016 was dismissed over technical filing errors (the address listed in court documents was a foreclosed home that has been vacant since its owner died), with the plaintiff failing in her attempt to avoid incurring the cost of the litigation:
> 
> ..............
> 
> A judge recommended on April 29 that “Katie Johnson” should have to pay her own attorneys’ fees and court costs related to the $100 million lawsuit she brought against Trump and billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein over alleged sexual assault charges. Then on May 2, a U.S. District judge ordered the entire lawsuit thrown out.
> 
> .............
> For his part, Trump asserted that the charges were “not only categorically false, but disgusting at the highest level and clearly framed to solicit media attention or, perhaps, are simply politically motivated,” adding that “There is absolutely no merit to these allegations. Period."
> 
> On 20 June 2016, New York City-based blog Gothamist reported that the plaintiff had refiled a similar complaint in a New York State federal court:
> 
> A federal lawsuit filed in New York accuses Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump of repeatedly raping a 13-year-old girl more than 20 years ago, at several Upper East Side parties hosted by convicted sex offender and notorious billionaire investor Jeffrey Epstein.
> 
> The suit, first reported by the Real Deal, accuses Trump and Epstein of luring the anonymous plaintiff and other young women to four parties at Epstein's so-called Wexner Mansion at 9 East 71st Street. Epstein allegedly lured the plaintiff, identified in the suit only as Jane Doe, with promises of a modeling career and cash.


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> This is a low, even for you. You are a sleaze bag.
> 
> The Clinton foundation has brought water to many millions of people in the third world, along with health care and education. With their work to fight AIDS, they might just keep you from getting it.
> 
> Between Bill Gates and Bill Clinton, the third world is a massively better place. To attempt to smear that work is really, really low.
> 
> Why don't you go back to making things up about Hillary? You could explain to us that all 30K emails are gross violations of national security. Also, I'd like you to explain to us how you have come to the conclusion she is guilty for sending email that is unclassified and later becomes classified by topic.
> 
> Step up. Give us a good laugh.


Bob Woodward thinks the Clinton Foundation is corrupt.



> You could say Bob Woodward knows a thing or two about corruption in politics.
> 
> The veteran journalist, who serves as associate editor at The Washington Post, broke the Watergate story that brought down President Richard Nixon. During a recent Fox News panel discussion, he made no bones about his disdain for the Clinton Foundation.
> 
> 
> 
> WikiLeaks has published hacked emails from Clinton campaign Chairman John Podesta's account that showed donors would give to the foundation expecting to receive access to the Clintons in exchange. During the third presidential debate, Fox news's Chris Wallace, who served as moderator, had asked Clinton about the conflict of interest. The Democratic nominee deflected by saying, "We at the Clinton Foundation spend 90%, 90%, of all the money that is donated on behalf of programs for people around the world and in our own country. I’m very proud of that. We have the highest rating from the watchdogs that follow foundations. And I would be happy to compare what we do with the Trump Foundation which took money from other people and bought a six-foot portrait of Donald. I mean, who does that?" (See also, Tale of Two Charities: Trump's Helps Trump, the Clintons' Is the Real Deal.)
> 
> ..........
> 
> On Sunday, when Wallace asked Woodward if voters are right to be troubled by the Wikileaks revelations, Woodward said, *"Yes. It's corrupt, it's a scandal and she didn't answer your question at all and she turned to embrace the good work that the Clinton foundation has done, and she has a case there. But the mixing of the speech fees, the Clinton foundation and actions by The State Department, which she ran, are all intertwined. It's corrupt. You can't just say it's unsavoury."*


There is an ongoing FBI investigation of the Clinton Foundation.Bob Woodward is held in high regard by many people and is an authority on institutional corruption.

Comey on July 5th said:



> From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent.


2000 were "up-classified" after the fact . She still was responsible for sending or receiving them. A reasonable person would have known that an unclassified server was the wrong place to send these 2000.



> For example, seven e-mail chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program level when they were sent and received. These chains involved Secretary Clinton both sending e-mails about those matters and receiving e-mails from others about the same matters. There is evidence to support a conclusion that any reasonable person in Secretary Clinton’s position, or in the position of those government employees with whom she was corresponding about these matters, should have known that an unclassified system was no place for that conversation. In addition to this highly sensitive information, we also found information that was properly classified as Secret by the U.S. Intelligence Community at the time it was discussed on e-mail (that is, excluding the later “up-classified” e-mails).


She could have been charged. That she wasn't is a mystery.

Unlike some posters here I am an empiricist. I deal in facts not feverish fantasies.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Relevant to this thread ... *CNN Money: The plague of fake news is getting worse -- here's how to protect yourself* http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/30/media/facebook-fake-news-plague/
> 
> 
> 
> Most posters try to post honest, verified information. Unfortunately two or three frequent posters here tend towards promoting fake news stories.


Smear campaign worthy of Joe McCarthy.


----------



## mordko

wraphter said:


> Smear campaign worthy of Joe McCarthy.


This is a good example of how warped some of the arguments really are. The article is referring, in a strictly factual manner, to fabrications. We have seen plenty in this very thread, including from the exact same sources. These were DELIBERATE fabrications and smears. Someone had to modify the clip with Soros. It was obvious that in the real world he wouldn't have been claiming that Tramp was going to win the popular vote and then the election would be given to Clinton and yet several of you posted the clearly faked video. Equally fake was zerohedge claim that Soros owns the voting machines, which was posted here. That was a smear.

And yet a strictly factual article, referencing similar fabrications and some of the same sources is called "smear campaign worthy of McCarthy". It's 180 degrees opposite from reality.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> This is a good example of how warped some of the arguments really are. The article is referring, in a strictly factual manner, to fabrications. We have seen plenty in this very thread, including from the exact same sources. These were DELIBERATE fabrications and smears. Someone had to modify the clip with Soros. It was obvious that in the real world he wouldn't have been claiming that Tramp was going to win the popular vote and then the election would be given to Clinton and yet several of you posted the clearly faked video. Equally fake was zerohedge claim that Soros owns the voting machines, which was posted here. That was a smear.
> 
> And yet a strictly factual article, referencing similar fabrications and some of the same sources is called "smear campaign worthy of McCarthy". It's 180 degrees opposite from reality.


The laughable part is the article is from CNN-which prides itself on fabrications, smears and the like. CNN no longer even pretends to cover the news.


----------



## TomB19

Hey Nelley, I heard Clinton is going to place a special tax on Internet BS artists. I expect you to be in the 100% bracket.


----------



## sags

Left or right wing biases accounted for............people who blame the media ignore the fact that Trump buried himself with his own words.

The firestorm rhetoric that reduced his most ardent supporters to tears of joy, didn't play as well as national news headlines across the US.

His own campaign team implored Trump to turn down the rhetoric and concentrate on the issues, but his late night Twitter rants negated any positive efforts. His hard core supporters cheered.......but they aren't enough to win a general election.

Perhaps at this late date, Trump has arrived at the general election party but it is far too late to change the outcome.

This general election is lost to the Republicans, but it was really lost when Republicans chose a candidate that supporters of both parties could not support. Trump not only doesn't appeal to Democrats, he also doesn't appeal to a lot of Republicans.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Hey Nelley, I heard Clinton is going to place a special tax on Internet BS artists. I expect you to be in the 100% bracket.


I heard the Clinton Crime Family is hiring foot soldiers-get your application is right now-you can wipe Crooked Hillary's butt.


----------



## bass player

Huma Abedin's ties to the Muslim Brotherhood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKt2zaOrxD8


----------



## sags

Interesting video, but I would think Abedin would have high security clearances and would have been thoroughly vetted by the CIA, FBI and Homeland Security.

A conspiracy would have to involve the complicity of those agencies, and would have required them to remain silent for decades.

If that be the case, then the state of the free world is in worse shape than many imagine.

That is not to say that the US hasn't had a questionable relationship with Saudi Arabia for decades. We are only now learning of roles that Saudi Arabia played in the 9/11 attack and their ties to terrorism around the world.

I remember when George H. Bush sent the US military to free Kuwait from Saddam Hussein's invasion.

At the time, in order to placate concerned citizens, Bush stated that Kuwait had agreed to sweeping changes.

After Hussein was forced back into Iraq, all that was forgotten and Kuwait continued to govern as per usual.

I recently watched a documentary on the history of oil.....from it's first discoveries to Iran to SA to offshore drilling and shale.

The history of oil discovery raises and answers many questions about the state of world affairs today.

One could correctly say........much of the world's problems are directly tied to oil.

The transition to alternative fuels is being fought by oil related interests, foreign governments, and those who understand that dependence on oil has given them a great undue influence on world affairs.

It is those same special interests who attack climate change science to delay the transition of power and influence.

It seems a conflict to me, that the same people who stridently oppose radical Islam also support continued reliance on oil.

Where do they think the money that supports terrorism is coming from.......bake sales ?


----------



## sags

Donald Trump isn't the solution to many of the problems his supporters bring up.

He is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

He talks about corporate welfare, but participates in it wholeheartedly. 

He talks about foreign trade deals, but has his products produced in cheap labor countries.

He talks about illegal immigrants taking American jobs, but hires them at his businesses.

He talks about strengthening the US military, but hasn't paid taxes to support the spending and got a draft deferral himself.

He talks about addressing US debt, but went bankrupt 4 times.

Is there anything that Donald Trump advocates............that he has actually practiced in his own business life ?

I posted early in this thread that Donald Trump is a chameleon. A phony, a fake.......a trojan horse.

He has no more interest in helping average Americans than the Koch brothers do.

People like Donald Trump live in a different world than the rest of us.


----------



## SMK

It's peculiar and perhaps not a coincidence that Abedin, raised in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere until 18, quickly became a teenage WH intern at 19, and has remained by Hillary's side ever since. 

Also interesting how she's become a top adviser to Clinton with just a Bachelor of Arts degree.

The Clintons haven't had much luck with their "assigned" or hand-picked interns.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/0,28757,2023831,00.html?iid=redirect-40under40


----------



## sags

In the US, the choice of President is between a billionaire and a multi-millionaire.

Both claim concern for the "working people", but both live well above the fray.

In Canada, we chose the wealthiest candidate as leader, and although Justin Trudeau has a few dollars in a trust fund, they needed to sell their home to get the money to buy their next one...........just like most other Canadians would have to do.

Quite a difference in leaders to choose from.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> He talks about corporate welfare, but participates in it wholeheartedly.


To be fair, if Trump did not take best advantage of the tax code and ran less profitable companies, his opponents would be attacking him about that too.

I believe Trump is sincere in his wish to tighten loopholes and he probably has a reasonable handle on it. I don't think for one second that he could do it. Congress would never pass it. Their owners wouldn't allow it.

Hillary isn't going to be able to do much fixing, either.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Speaking of classified material, the US is releasing classified CIA documents about the JFK assassination in 2017.
> 
> Researchers are hoping there will be some new information that could shed light on what happened that day.


Republicans should hold a few thousand congressional hearings on the subject. I'm sure they could break that case wide open. lol!


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> In Canada, we chose the wealthiest candidate as leader, and although Justin Trudeau has a few dollars in a trust fund, they needed to sell their home to get the money to buy their next one...........just like most other Canadians would have to do.
> 
> Quite a difference in leaders to choose from.


... and yet Canadians continue to be laid off and replaced with non-Canadian workers from overseas. It is exactly like the Harper years.

It's tough to conjure a scenario in which both parties are not owned by big interests.


----------



## lonewolf :)

TomB19 said:


> To be fair, if Trump did not take best advantage of the tax code and ran less profitable companies, his opponents would be attacking him about that too.
> 
> I believe Trump is sincere in his wish to tighten loopholes and he probably has a reasonable handle on it. I don't think for one second that he could do it. Congress would never pass it. Their owners wouldn't allow it.
> 
> Hillary isn't going to be able to do much fixing, either.


 Hillary gets money for supplying countries with arms through her foundation, Merkel has helped to destroy Europe with bringing in radicals. Isis flags flying in Sweden, rape has gone through the roof etc. Hillary wants to do the same who is donating to her foundation ? Islam radicals say they are going to take over Europe & North America by having lots of babies & out number us. Check out some of the you tube videos of the immigration problems & the way of live the radicals want to bring to the world. Political correctness is destrying Europe it seams Isis has bought off the political leaders & a lot of the press. Anyone that is against the immigration of the radicals is called racist.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> In the US, the choice of President is between a billionaire and a multi-millionaire.
> 
> Both claim concern for the "working people", but both live well above the fray.
> 
> In Canada, we chose the wealthiest candidate as leader, and although Justin Trudeau has a few dollars in a trust fund, they needed to sell their home to get the money to buy their next one...........just like most other Canadians would have to do.
> 
> Quite a difference in leaders to choose from.


Oh, please. Arguing that the son of Pierre Trudeau is like "most other Canadians" (or ever has been) is laughable. It's a f-ing dynasty.


----------



## tygrus

Again, judgement is the taste test here.

Think of clinton and her staff as mid level people in a corporation who want to move up to CEO. So first of all she flouts official security policy, gets caught, deletes information and then lies about it under oath. Then her most trusted advisor doesnt have enough sense to see she is married to a pedo. There is no corporation in the world that would put these people in on top. Yet somehow they are qualified enough to run a country.


----------



## new dog

lonewolf :) said:


> Hillary gets money for supplying countries with arms through her foundation, Merkel has helped to destroy Europe with bringing in radicals. Isis flags flying in Sweden, rape has gone through the roof etc. Hillary wants to do the same who is donating to her foundation ? Islam radicals say they are going to take over Europe & North America by having lots of babies & out number us. Check out some of the you tube videos of the immigration problems & the way of live the radicals want to bring to the world. Political correctness is destrying Europe it seams Isis has bought off the political leaders & a lot of the press. Anyone that is against the immigration of the radicals is called racist.


Good post lonewolf.


----------



## mordko

tygrus said:


> Again, judgement is the taste test here.
> 
> Think of clinton and her staff as mid level people in a corporation who want to move up to CEO. So first of all she flouts official security policy, gets caught, deletes information and then lies about it under oath. Then her most trusted advisor doesnt have enough sense to see she is married to a pedo. There is no corporation in the world that would put these people in on top. Yet somehow they are qualified enough to run a country.


Then again, Trump would fail an interview for any position beyond janitorial. The only reason he is not unemployed is that he started his career working for his dad who passed on the fortune.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Then again, Trump would fail an interview for any position beyond janitorial. The only reason he is not unemployed is that he started his career working for his dad who passed on the fortune.


Yeah...people did business with Trump for decades only because of his father, lol. When Hillary supporters don't have facts, they just make stuff up.

If a security check was done today, Hillary would fail and be ineligible for office.


----------



## tygrus

mordko said:


> Then again, Trump would fail an interview for any position beyond janitorial. The only reason he is not unemployed is that he started his career working for his dad who passed on the fortune.


Trump built and ran something at least. He survived this long in the business. He might have had business problems, bankruptcy, etc, but his actions didnt translate across the globe like clintons did.


----------



## bass player

tygrus said:


> Again, judgement is the taste test here.
> 
> Think of clinton and her staff as mid level people in a corporation who want to move up to CEO. So first of all she flouts official security policy, gets caught, deletes information and then lies about it under oath. Then her most trusted advisor doesnt have enough sense to see she is married to a pedo. There is no corporation in the world that would put these people in on top. Yet somehow they are qualified enough to run a country.


Weiner's pedophile tendencies were exposed in 2013...so Huma knew then, yet she stayed married to him. This woman has appalling judgement and has ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, and if Hillary is elected, she may end up as Secretary of State.

But, Trump said something nasty and that makes him unfit, lol.


----------



## mordko

tygrus said:


> Trump built and ran something at least. He survived this long in the business. He might have had business problems, bankruptcy, etc, but his actions didnt translate across the globe like clintons did.


That's true, but did he do it well? Up to 90s his father was running it. Then Trump managed to achieve a humongous loss at the very time when the real estate was booming. And for quite some time now he has been focused on his career of a reality star while his children have been running the business. How does that qualify him exactly? Does he have any public office experience?


----------



## tygrus

I dont think people realize what will happen here.

The very least, Abedin will be guilty of perjury and fired from the campaign. 

Some of 33,000 missing emails are probably on that computer. Could be a smoking gun in there. 

Through actions of clinton original server fiasco, her emails got outside the US govt security apparatus onto the laptop of some 3rd rate disgraced congressman. A clear violation of security and clearly out in the open vulnerable to hacking. The cause was clinton herself. I am sure the 650,000 emails are more than idle girl talk. 

But lets say none of that happens and its all forgot about and she wins the election. She goes into her 'presidency' as a wounded incumbent much like nixon. She will be faced with an invigorated GOP who will block everything and she will be under active investigation for at least the first 6 months of her term. She could face articles of impeachment. Basically a country in turmoil for better part of 4 years if she survives. 

Tell me how on earth this scenario is better than trump at this point?


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> That's true, but did he do it well? Up to 90s his father was running it. Then Trump managed to achieve a humongous loss at the very time when the real estate was booming. And for quite some time now he has been focused on his career of a reality star while his children have been running the business. How does that qualify him exactly? Does he have any public office experience?


Typical Moronko post-devoid of logic, facts or intelligence.


----------



## Nelley

tygrus said:


> I dont think people realize what will happen here.
> 
> The very least, Abedin will be guilty of perjury and fired from the campaign.
> 
> Some of 33,000 missing emails are probably on that computer. Could be a smoking gun in there.
> 
> Through actions of clinton original server fiasco, her emails got outside the US govt security apparatus onto the laptop of some 3rd rate disgraced congressman. A clear violation of security and clearly out in the open vulnerable to hacking. The cause was clinton herself. I am sure the 650,000 emails are more than idle girl talk.
> 
> But lets say none of that happens and its all forgot about and she wins the election. She goes into her 'presidency' as a wounded incumbent much like nixon. She will be faced with an invigorated GOP who will block everything and she will be under active investigation for at least the first 6 months of her term. She could face articles of impeachment. Basically a country in turmoil for better part of 4 years if she survives.
> 
> Tell me how on earth this scenario is better than trump at this point?


One thing people are missing-if this is a 5 year old laptop-650000/5 equals 130000 emails a year equals 356 emails a day day in day out-there is no way that is just one persons emails-it looks like everything was downloaded to Weiners laptop as a backup.


----------



## bass player

Scott Adams on why James Comey did what he did:

"So allow me to offer an interpretation of events that casts Comey as more of a patriot and hero than an ***-covering weasel. Compare my interpretation with whatever movie you have in your head and see which one works best for explaining and predicting.

My movie says Comey had good evidence against Clinton during the initial investigation but made a judgement call to leave the decision to the American public. For reasons of conscience, and acting as a patriot, Comey explained in clear language to the public exactly what evidence the FBI found against Clinton. The evidence looked damning because it was. Under this interpretation, Comey took a bullet to his reputation for the sake of the Republic. He didn’t want the FBI to steal this important decision away from the people, but at the same time he couldn’t let the people decide blind. So he divulged the evidence and stepped away, like the action hero who doesn’t look back at the explosion.

In the second act of this movie, Comey learns that the Weiner laptop had emails that were so damning it would be a crime against the public to allow them to vote without first seeing a big red flag. And a flag was the best he could do because it was too early in the investigation to leak out bits and pieces of the evidence. That would violate Clinton’s rights.

But Comey couldn’t easily raise a red flag to warn the public because it was against FBI policy to announce a criminal investigation about a candidate so close to election day. So Comey had a choice of either taking another bullet for the Republic or screwing the very country that he has spent his career protecting.

In this movie, Comey did the hero thing. He alerted the public to the fact that the FBI found DISQUALIFYING information on the Weiner laptop. And he took a second bullet to his reputation."

Full blog post:

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152531307171/james-comey-as-seen-through-the-persuasion


----------



## tygrus

Its funny to think we have Snowden in exile, Assange in hiding and Bradley Manning in jail all for letting govt secrets get out. Then we have someone who did the same and they are running for president. Go figure.


----------



## TomB19

How is it that Republicans are "just sure" there is a smoking gun in the lost email? No evidence exists, except in your fantasies, to suggest such.

The only thing I can think of is that you "know" she is guilty and are now looking for evidence.

Hillary is not as bad as she is made out to be. I don't believe Trump is, either.

Trump doesn't have the temperament for the office but I but I believe both are patriots and believe they can help the country be a better place.

Also, either will be a lame duck so don't expect much out of them.

Lastly, they are running for the office of president. They aren't running for God. They don't have all encompassing power. They can't even introduce their own legislation. The job is primarily veto power and diplomacy. Sure, they are the head of their respective parties so they can theoretically inject legislation into congress through their congressional party members but Democrats have limited power in congress and Republicans don't respect Trump (primarily: Paul Ryan).


----------



## Argonaut

The trend is all Trump in the polling and the liberal media cannot even defend against it because the Hillary scandal is just so juicy. Her presidential campaign is now directly associated with the perversions of a man named Weiner. You can't make this stuff up. Whoever wrote the script for this presidential election should get an Oscar next February.


----------



## wraphter

tygrus said:


> Its funny to think we have Snowden in exile, Assange in hiding and Bradley Manning in jail all for letting govt secrets get out. Then we have someone who did the same and they are running for president. Go figure.


These three *intended* to make public classified government information. Hillary never intended to make public secret information,but she acted in a negligent way by using a private server that compromised government classified information. For sure she* intended* not to use the government system.


----------



## tygrus

Unintended (negligence) still has legal repercussions. Look at manslaughter laws.


----------



## Nelley

wraphter said:


> These three *intended* to make public classified government information. Hillary never intended to make public secret information,but she acted in a negligent way by using a private server that compromised government classified information. For sure she* intended* not to use the government system.


Also, Crooked Hillary is a principal in the Clinton Foundation-which is also under an open FBI investigation. There are many facts that point to a conclusion that Crooked Hillary used the state department posting to enrich herself massively through pay to play, basically bribery of her as a US official. This is why she set up the totally "illogical" and unnecessary server in the first place-to provide secrecy for her crime. This criminal puppet isn't at all afraid of the law.


----------



## bass player

The Clinton's have a net worth exceeding $100 million...they never ran a business, invested in real estate, and never invented anything. They made all that money by selling their influence and selling access to the US government.

Some people choose to believe that someone would pay Bill $500,000 just to hear him talk for 30 minutes while his wife was Secretary of State, and not want something in return... :very_drunk:


----------



## new dog

tygrus said:


> I dont think people realize what will happen here.
> 
> The very least, Abedin will be guilty of perjury and fired from the campaign.
> 
> Some of 33,000 missing emails are probably on that computer. Could be a smoking gun in there.
> 
> Through actions of clinton original server fiasco, her emails got outside the US govt security apparatus onto the laptop of some 3rd rate disgraced congressman. A clear violation of security and clearly out in the open vulnerable to hacking. The cause was clinton herself. I am sure the 650,000 emails are more than idle girl talk.
> 
> But lets say none of that happens and its all forgot about and she wins the election. She goes into her 'presidency' as a wounded incumbent much like nixon. She will be faced with an invigorated GOP who will block everything and she will be under active investigation for at least the first 6 months of her term. She could face articles of impeachment. Basically a country in turmoil for better part of 4 years if she survives.
> 
> Tell me how on earth this scenario is better than trump at this point?



This scenario could be very bad on two fronts when it comes to Russia.

Number one it could cause Hillary to fight for her presidency while Russia can take advantage of this and make gains where they never thought they could.

Number two it causes Hillary to be extra war hungry causing extreme danger to the earth as she tries to distract and gather power against a common enemy.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Trump side? Not me. Just your pejorative imagination. Typical smear from olivaw.
> 
> You strangely forgot to mention that this case was dismissed in California. [/url]


Be honest about your motivation. You've been filling this thread with anti Hillary drivel from the moment you first used this ID. Skip the insults, makes you look as daft as bass player. 

The case was dismissed in California for technical filing reasons, not for lack of merit. The case was refiled in New York. All of that information was including in the link that I provided. 

Regardless, you've missed the point. These unproven allegations do not a relevant argument make. They're political smears, rendered even less relevant in light of the fact that we can't even vote.


----------



## mordko

tygrus said:


> Its funny to think we have Snowden in exile, Assange in hiding and Bradley Manning in jail all for letting govt secrets get out. Then we have someone who did the same and they are running for president. Go figure.


Correction: Assange is hiding from a court case on rape allegation. 
Snowden and Manning deliberately breached the secrecy act - or whatever it is called. 

Hillary's actions are to do with mishandling of information rather than releasing it to the enemy. They fall under the law which requires to demonstrate intent and in her case it's next to impossible to prove.


----------



## olivaw

Nate Silver has Trump's odds of winning up to 23.9%. Betting odds are now 5/2 for Trump (1/3 for Hillary)

The Comey letter switched the media narrative to favour Trump. It may affect individuals who vote based on intuition or make up their mind when they enter the polling booth. If the last thing they read or heard was something that favours Trump, then they are more likely to support him. 

Election night could be a nail biter.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Also, Crooked Hillary is a principal in the Clinton Foundation-which is also under an open FBI investigation.




false. As of today, the above is another Breitbart piece of libel.

nelley haven't you & bass & to a certain extent wraphter been asked to stop posting alt-right lies in the forum. The Bill Still type junk. The stuff any emaciated dyslexic anorexic can pop out of his home video cam.

so why. not. stop. nelley.


.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> false. As of today, the above is another Breitbart piece of libel.
> 
> nelley haven't you & bass & to a certain extent wraphter been asked to stop posting alt-right lies in the forum. The Bill Still type junk. The stuff any emaciated dyslexic anorexic can pop out of his home video cam.
> 
> so why. not. stop. nelley.
> 
> 
> .


You seem like such a gentle, likeable soul-except for your hatred of skinny little guys like Bill Still. In other news, today Crooked Hillary called Huma Abedin "just one of my staffers" next it will be "an ex-employee" then it will be "the deceased".


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> The Clinton's have a net worth exceeding $100 million...they never ran a business, invested in real estate, and never invented anything. They made all that money by selling their influence and selling access to the US government.
> 
> Some people choose to believe that someone would pay Bill $500,000 just to hear him talk for 30 minutes while his wife was Secretary of State, and not want something in return... :very_drunk:


I was part of organizing a major event for a large corporation in which celebrity speakers were paid to talk about their subject matter. It wasn't on the Bill/Hillary Clinton level, but they had some pretty big names (all of these people had regularly appeared on television) and the speaking fees were surprising. Not $500K surprising, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch to consider the fees we paid and that Bill and/or Hillary could command that kind of money.


----------



## Nelley

Breaking news-the FBI just found 10000 emails on Huma and Weiner's computer-they were in a file marked LIFE INSURANCE.


----------



## Argonaut

TomB19 said:


> I was part of organizing a major event for a large corporation in which celebrity speakers were paid to talk about their subject matter. It wasn't on the Bill/Hillary Clinton level, but they had some pretty big names (all of these people had regularly appeared on television) and the speaking fees were surprising. Not $500K surprising, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch to consider the fees we paid and that Bill and/or Hillary could command that kind of money.


Hillary was paid how many millions in speaking fees to the big banks? 
And now she can't even get 100 people to show up to hear her speak for *free* on the campaign trail.


----------



## bass player

Earlier today Hillary tweeted her condolences regarding the upcoming suicide of James Comey...


----------



## olivaw

Argonaut said:


> Hillary was paid how many millions in speaking fees to the big banks?
> And now she can't even get 100 people to show up to hear her speak for *free* on the campaign trail.


Really? Her attendance figures are reasonable for the venues she chooses. Attendance is in the thousands at rallies. It is more limited in intimate venues with a smaller capacity. Say what you will, Hillary has never had a problem getting people to listen to her. Different campaigns just choose a different strategy.

Don't spending your winnings just yet. Hillary still leads and polls always tighten in the last week of an American presidential campaign. Obama led Romney by only 1% at this point in the 2012 race.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> You seem like such a gentle, likeable soul-except for your hatred of skinny little guys like Bill Still. In other news, today Crooked Hillary called Huma Abedin "just one of my staffers" next it will be "an ex-employee" then it will be "the deceased".



i feel very bad for Huma, a well-educated & well-thought-of young american woman who has served hillary clinton loyally for nearly two decades.

huma could have been any of our colleagues, any of our bosses, any of our classmates, any of our city neighbours, any mother in the toddlers' play group. We would always have known her for her thoughtfulness & her sense of fair play.

yes huma is going to lose her job now, in the midst of the tragic maelstrom that is convulsing america. The action will come too soon on the heels of losing her husband, so i'm left hoping that this slender, delicate woman will be able to bend with the stress & still emerge stronger on the other side of it.

huma has her 4-year-old to protect. In a way, this small boy will be the one person who will play the biggest role in keeping his mother pointed forward.

.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Earlier today Hillary tweeted her condolences regarding the upcoming suicide of James Comey...



this is as disgusting as your diaper obscenity

what are you, one of those old old old old seniles in a nursing home, getting his jollies from trafficking in filth ...


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i feel very bad for Huma, a well-educated & well-thought-of young american woman who has served hillary clinton loyally for nearly two decades.
> 
> huma could have been any of our colleagues, any of our bosses, any of our classmates, any of our city neighbours, any mother in the toddlers' play group. We would always have known her for her thoughtfulness & her sense of fair play.
> 
> yes huma is going to lose her job now, in the midst of the tragic maelstrom that is convulsing america. The action will come too soon on the heels of losing her husband, so i'm left hoping that this slender, delicate woman will be able to bend with the stress & still emerge stronger on the other side of it.
> 
> huma has her 4-year-old to protect. In a way, this small boy will be the one person who will play the biggest role in keeping his mother pointed forward.
> 
> .


Don't be surprised if that little kid ends up an orphan-knowing Crooked Hillary's track record.


----------



## sags

Just a legal technicality....having classified emails hacked and made public is not considered the illegal transfer of classified information.

The guilty party would be the hackers and publishers of said information, whom the US says is the Russians and Wikileaks.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Don't be surprised if that little kid ends up an orphan-knowing Crooked Hillary's track record.



there you go again with the libel

PS i regard the above as encouraging a distinct death threat against a still-blameless young american woman & i am wondering if the rcmp should be asked to take a look

former cmf member *donald* was recently banned for somewhat similar conduct

.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Just a legal technicality........having classified emails hacked is not considered the illegal transfer of classified information.
> 
> The guilty party would be the hackers, whom the US says is the Russians.


And Putin owns Trump, so really Donald Trump destroyed all those emails.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Just a legal technicality........having classified emails hacked is not considered the illegal transfer of classified information.


No, but using an unsecured private server instead of government issued secure devices made the hack possible.



sags said:


> The guilty party would be the hackers, whom the US says is the Russians.


If Russia hacked Hillary's emails (no one has proven this), then Hillary made it possible with her use of a private unsecure server.


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> And Putin owns Trump, so really Donald Trump destroyed all those emails.


If Trump and Putin conspired to release the hacked emails, Trump could be charged with espionage.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> No, but using an unsecured private server instead of government issued secure devices made the hack possible.
> 
> If Russia hacked Hillary's emails (no one has proven this), then Hillary made it possible with her use of a private unsecure server.


True.........careless but not criminal, as James Comey said.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> huma has her 4-year-old to protect. In a way, this small boy will be the one person who will play the biggest role in keeping his mother pointed forward.


Huma could end up in prison for perjury and her husband could end up in prison as a pedophile. It looks like this poor child chose the wrong parents...


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> True.........careless but not criminal, as James Comey said.


He never said that-Crooked Hillary is current under CRIMINAL investigation by the FBI-are you living under a rock?


----------



## sags

The latest I have heard on the news is that nobody knows nothing, because the FBI isn't saying anything.

Lots of speculation on what the emails contain. They could be copies of previously investigated emails, or they could be conversations among a lot of different people. Nobody will know until the investigation is complete.

The general consensus among former CIA and FBI directors is that Comey should never have revealed they were investigating.

He broke several long standing FBI protocols,...do not talk about an ongoing investigation and do not interfere in an election of any kind.

Comey is an Obama appointee and has 4 more years to serve. 

He made a serious error in judgement and may lose his job, despite his stellar past performance.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Huma could end up in prison for perjury and her husband could end up in prison as a pedophile. It looks like this poor child chose the wrong parents...



i'm missing the huma/perjury part, but then i am aware that in your cranky irritable senile world, everybody is a jail bird .:frog:

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> there you go again with the libel
> 
> PS i regard the above as encouraging a distinct death threat against a still-blameless young american woman & i am wondering if the rcmp should be asked to take a look
> 
> former cmf member *donald* was recently banned for somewhat similar conduct
> 
> .


For anyone reading-no threat is intended to anyone-I am a gentle soul-Humble is a disgusting pig.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> i'm missing the huma/perjury part, but then i am aware that in your cranky irritable senile world, everybody is a jail bird .:frog:
> 
> .


Huma stated under oath that she turned in ALL the devices that had her emails on them. This has since been proven false, therefore, she lied under oath. Lying under oath is called perjury.

Do you get it yet?


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> He never said that-Crooked Hillary is current under CRIMINAL investigation by the FBI-are you living under a rock?


Yes, James Comey did say that.......numerous times in front of Congressional hearings and in the media.

This latest revelation has not reopened the past investigation and it won't unless the FBI find pertinent information on the Weiner laptop.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> For anyone reading-no threat is intended to anyone-I am a gentle soul-Humble is a disgusting pig.



u are the worst effed up ***** cmf forum has ever seen .each:


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Huma stated under oath that she turned in ALL the devices that had her emails on them. This has since been proven false, therefore, she lied under oath. Lying under oath is called perjury.
> 
> Do you get it yet?



what, there are still more e-mails to come? another 650,000 maybe?


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Huma stated under oath that she turned in ALL the devices that had her emails on them. This has since been proven false, therefore, she lied under oath. Lying under oath is called perjury.
> 
> Do you get it yet?


Maybe she didn't know Wiener's laptop had all those emails on them. 

After all, he was sexting young girls and didn't want her to know about that.

Jumping to conclusions without any evidence is non productive.


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> Yes, James Comey did say that.......numerous times in front of Congressional hearings and in the media.
> 
> This latest revelation has not reopened the past investigation and it won't unless the FBI find pertinent information on the Weiner laptop.


She let 650,000 emails get out into the unsecure internet by her refusal to follow standard protocol. So all there has to be is one email in the bunch that discusses sensitive policy or classified topics and she is culpable. 

Now lets adress the arrogance of this. She didnt just decide to try a few months of email that way and see how it goes. She was advised multiple times against it and she kept going. For 4 years and hundreds of thousands of emails.

Who is more dangerous with the nuclear codes?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Maybe she didn't know Wiener's laptop had all those emails on them.


That's exactly why the government issues secure devices to certain employees...to prevent them from ending up on non-secure devices.



sags said:


> After all, he was sexting young girls and didn't want her to know about that.


He got caught doing that several years ago, so she knew of his tendencies.

Why do so many of you not know the basic facts? Do you only watch CNN and their "select" reporting? Where do you get your news from?


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> Huma could end up in prison for perjury and her husband could end up in prison as a pedophile. It looks like this poor child chose the wrong parents...


More like Huma chose the wrong husband, or rather let the man humiliate her over and over, just like the woman she came to admire and work for did also.


----------



## Nelley

tygrus said:


> She let 650,000 emails get out into the unsecure internet by her refusal to follow standard protocol. So all there has to be is one email in the bunch that discusses sensitive policy or classified topics and she is culpable.
> 
> Now lets adress the arrogance of this. She didnt just decide to try a few months of email that way and see how it goes. She was advised multiple times against it and she kept going. For 4 years and hundreds of thousands of emails.
> 
> Who is more dangerous with the nuclear codes?


According to the top agent assigned to her, Crooked Hillary has always been dangerously unstable-he says she almost killed Bill Clinton in a fit of rage one time-she seems to have gotten even worse over the years.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> More like Huma chose the wrong husband, or rather let the man humiliate her over and over, just like the woman she came to admire and work for did also.


And that lack of judgement shows that she is unfit for such a high position in government.


----------



## sags

Making the same arguments over and over with more emphasis, doesn't change the law.

Clinton's emails were hacked and posted by Wikileaks. According to the law, she is not held criminally responsible for someone hacking her emails. Clinton didn't hand over classified material to the Washington Post. 

The hacking didn't just involve Hillary Clinton's server. The DNC and her campaign chairman John Podesta was also hacked.

If the law held people/organizations criminally responsible when emails or passwords were hacked from their servers, there would be a lot of retail company executives in prison.......see Home Depot for example.

Whomever did the hacking appears to have had an agenda of disrupting and influencing the US elections.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Making the same arguments over and over with more emphasis, doesn't change the law.
> 
> Clinton's emails were hacked and posted by Wikileaks. According to the law, she is not held criminally responsible for someone hacking her emails.
> 
> If criminal law was that people/organizations were responsible for hacked emails, there would be a lot of company executives in prison.....like Home Depot and others.


You are the one making the same argument over and over and over again and completely missing the point. The reason the government requires certain employees to use government issued secure devices is TO PREVENT HACKS.

My goodness, some people just can't grasp the obvious.


----------



## agent99

olivaw said:


> Relevant to this thread ... *CNN Money: The plague of fake news is getting worse -- here's how to protect yourself* http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/30/media/facebook-fake-news-plague/
> 
> Most posters try to post honest, verified information. Unfortunately two or three frequent posters here tend towards promoting fake news stories.


Just came across that article on CNN today and thought - _"I know where that should be posted"_! 

But see you were a step ahead of me


----------



## tygrus

sags said:


> Clinton's emails were hacked and posted by Wikileaks. According to the law, she is not held criminally responsible for someone hacking her emails.


Yes true, however because she flouted govt procedure and security systems (which have multiple built in protection and surveillance for such an event) and housed it on her own server, she is responsible.

When I worked at a big company and we used email remotely, we had to log onto the companies secure server first before accessing our accounts. Those servers had the most up to date software and security and were monitored around the clock by a bunch of IT geeks. Imagine what the US govt has in place. And Hillary in all her wisdom chooses as senator and SoS decides to use a AOL online account.


----------



## bass player

agent99 said:


> Just came across that article on CNN and thought - I know where that should be posted! But see you were a step ahead of me


Lol...CNN lecturing on fake news. You can't make this stuff up


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> According to the top agent assigned to her, Crooked Hillary has always been dangerously unstable-he says she almost killed Bill Clinton in a fit of rage one time-she seems to have gotten even worse over the years.



another piece of libel, where are you getting this ess aitch eye tee?

you're trying to pretend that the top secret service agent assigned to protect hillary clinton goes around talking like the above?

tomB is right. You folks are lunatics .:biggrin:

.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> And that lack of judgement shows that she is unfit for such a high position in government.


You can't blame Huma for having wanted to forgive her husband more than once. I believe she was pregnant when he was first caught, but apparently she's done with the humiliations.

For Hillary it was impossible to leave Bill, as it was all about politics for her.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> Nelley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Crooked Hillary is a principal in the Clinton Foundation-which is also under an open FBI investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> false. As of today, the above is another Breitbart piece of libel.
> 
> nelley haven't you & bass & to a certain extent wraphter been asked to stop posting alt-right lies in the forum. The Bill Still type junk. The stuff any emaciated dyslexic anorexic can pop out of his home video cam.
> 
> so why. not. stop. nelley.
Click to expand...

humble_pie,

There was an FBI investigation into the Clinton Foundation and it may still be going on.
It met a lot of resistance from DOJ.



> Early this year, four FBI field offices—New York, Los Angeles, Washington and Little Rock, Ark.—were collecting information about the Clinton Foundation to see if there was evidence of financial crimes or influence-peddling, according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> Los Angeles agents had picked up information about the Clinton Foundation from an unrelated public-corruption case and had issued some subpoenas for bank records related to the foundation, these people said.
> 
> The Washington field office was probing financial relationships involving Mr. McAuliffe before he became a Clinton Foundation board member, these people said. Mr. McAuliffe has denied any wrongdoing, and his lawyer has said the probe is focused on whether he failed to register as an agent of a foreign entity.
> 
> Clinton Foundation officials have long denied any wrongdoing, saying it is a well-run charity that has done immense good.
> 
> The FBI field office in New York had done the most work on the Clinton Foundation case and received help from the FBI field office in Little Rock, the people familiar with the matter said.
> 
> In February, FBI officials made a presentation to the Justice Department, according to these people. By all accounts, the meeting didn’t go well.
> 
> Some said that is because the FBI didn’t present compelling evidence to justify more aggressive pursuit of the Clinton Foundation, and that the career anticorruption prosecutors in the room simply believed it wasn’t a very strong case. Others said that from the start, the Justice Department officials were stern, icy and dismissive of the case.
> 
> “That was one of the weirdest meetings I’ve ever been to,” one participant told others afterward, according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> Anticorruption prosecutors at the Justice Department told the FBI at the meeting they wouldn’t authorize more aggressive investigative techniques, such as subpoenas, formal witness interviews, or grand-jury activity. But the FBI officials believed they were well within their authority to pursue the leads and methods already under way, these people said.
> 
> About a week after Mr. Comey’s July announcement that he was recommending against any prosecution in the Clinton email case, the FBI sought to refocus the Clinton Foundation probe, with Mr. McCabe deciding the FBI’s New York office would take the lead, with assistance from Little Rock.
> 
> ...........
> 
> According to a person familiar with the probes,* on Aug. 12*, a senior Justice Department official called Mr. McCabe to voice his displeasure at finding that New York FBI agents were still openly pursuing the Clinton Foundation probe during the election season. Mr. McCabe said agents still had the authority to pursue the issue as long as they didn’t use overt methods requiring Justice Department approvals.
> 
> “Are you telling me that I need to shut down a validly predicated investigation?” Mr. McCabe asked, according to people familiar with the conversation. After a pause, the official replied, “Of course not,” these people said.
> 
> For Mr. McCabe’s defenders, the exchange showed how he was stuck between an FBI office eager to pour more resources into a case and Justice Department prosecutors who didn’t think much of the case, one person said. Those people said that following the call, Mr. McCabe reiterated past instructions to FBI agents that they were to keep pursuing the work within the authority they had.
> 
> ...........
> For agents who already felt uneasy about FBI leadership’s handling of the Clinton Foundation case, the moment only deepened their concerns, these people said. For those who felt the probe hadn’t yet found significant evidence of criminal conduct, the leadership’s approach was the right response.
> 
> *In September*, agents on the foundation case asked to see the emails contained on nongovernment laptops that had been searched as part of the Clinton email case, but that request was rejected by prosecutors at the Eastern District of New York,
> 
> ............


So as of September the FBI investigation of the Foundation was still going on despite resistance from the DOJ.

Now the FBI is deeply involved with the Huma laptop and its connection with the Hillary server scandal.
Its quite possible that Huma's laptop contains emails related to the Foundation.

I believe the Foundation investigation s still ongoing.

The thought is that there was pressure from the Obama administration and Loretta Lynch to delay this investigation to 
protect the presidential candidate from embarrassment.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> The plague of fake news is getting worse


Fake news is pretty easy to spot. If it has "Republic" or "Truth" in the URL, it is BS.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> i feel very bad for Huma, a well-educated & well-thought-of young american woman who has served hillary clinton loyally for nearly two decades.
> 
> 
> .


How very affective, hp.

There is nothing wrong with calling her an Arab American. After all there are African Americans, Irish Americans,
Italian Americans and so forth. You are hiding her identity and culture .She spent the years from 2 till 18 in Saudi.


She probably has accumulated a nice stash ,a few million or so, from her part time job at the Foundation.


----------



## SMK

wraphter said:


> She spent the years from 2 till 18 in Saudi.


For that reason I found it very interesting that at 19 she was already a White House intern assigned to the then First Lady.

How many college students who lived in the US their entire lives would have loved to have received such an assignment?


----------



## agent99

wraphter said:


> She probably has accumulated a nice stash ,a few million or so, from her part time job at the Foundation.


Someone posted this a little while back : _"Unlike some posters here I am an empiricist. I deal in facts not feverish fantasies."_
Wonder who that was?


----------



## olivaw

I agree with those who express empathy for Huma. 

Many people choose the wrong spouse. They spend years living with physical abuse, infidelity or an addicted partner. Those who try to make their marriage work should be lauded for helping their partner to battle demons. Those who employ dismissive phrases such as "poor judgement" betray a severe lack of decency. 

Sometimes, despite their best efforts, these people are unable to make their marriage work. Huma made the painful decision to abandon Weiner after he proved that he was unwilling to resist his destructive urges. Good for her. 

Clinton made the decision to stick with a husband who cheated on her. Good for her. 

Melania Trump has chosen to stick with a husband who has been accused of sexual assault. Good for her too. 

Time to move beyond this nasty habit of blaming people for their spouse's failings.


----------



## TomB19

Huma is hot.


----------



## wraphter

agent99 said:


> Someone posted this a little while back : "Unlike some posters here I am an empiricist. I deal in facts not feverish fantasies."
> Wonder who that was?





You are taking that quote out of context. It was part of a conversation. I was engaged in an argument with another party whom I felt has a tendency to just glibly offer his opinion. You are distorting the meaning of my words. I noticed I was providing links and he wasn't as I recall.I felt I was more factual than him. 

I qualified what I was saying by using the word 'probably'. I am allowed to speculate. 
It you have contradictory evidence or opinion you can bring it. Be my guest.

After all, her BFF Hillary was taking in millions. She would be jealous if she didn't get some too.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Huma is hot.


Fox reported that Huma is in hot water. Might explain her hotness.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

You may be interested in this analysis of the latest Email scandal by an expert in internet security.

Courtesy Karl Denninger at The Market Ticker

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth - Sherlock Holmes.

Let's talk about Comey and the newest "revelation" in the Hillary saga.

There was this gagging sound that had to have been from Huma Abedin when the announcement was made. She protested she "didn't know" how the emails got on her estranged pervert husband's laptop, but it wasn't a few emails, as the Clinton camp originally protested -- it appears it was 650,000 emails.

This is the consequence, incidentally, of the combination of technical incompetence and arrogance in the world of today. It is why there are protocols for secure communications, there are rules and laws governing classified data, and the government is, except when a Clinton is involved, assiduous about enforcing them.

It is why classified information is never allowed on the Internet.

It is why classified information is never allowed on a computer that is not under both active monitoring and control by people who's job it is to verify that said machine has been secure, remains secure, and the data on it is secure, and said machine never leaves that secure network and connects to insecure one.

It is why the SD card slots and USB slots are locked out or physically disabled on such machines, so you can't stuff a thumb drive in there without it immediately setting off alarms at said monitoring locations and having The Hammer of God come down on your head.

And it is why incompetent people when it comes to cyber security, combined with arrogance, usually turns into disaster.

I've had several friends who had their machines "cryptolockered." To an individual they claim they never ran anything off the Internet. Yes they did. That's how it happens. They got a prompt, they clicked "ok", and.... oops. Once done you can't undo it, and yes, Mildred, encryption is real and if done properly it's damn near impossible to actually break. For "ordinary people" the answer is that you reformat the device and start over. Like it or not.

I'm going to take an educated guess here that the email program in question on that laptop is Outlook. At some point Huma signed into the Clintonemail server using the Exchange protocol, which syncs emails, contacts and calendars. It's very convenient. It also makes a copy of everything on said server pertinent to your account on the local disk, synchronizes it whenever it is connected and never removes any of it absent explicit instruction to do so because it is far faster (never mind working when you're not connected to the Internet) to be able to do things like a keyword search if you do it on the local computer. It might have even been set to run all the time whenever the machine is on.

It also makes the security of said email and calendars utterly reliant on whatever security exists (or the lack thereof) on every single computer that connects to said resource, individually! If any such machine is insecure then everything on it is also insecure, including all of those emails. In short software like this takes what is a reasonable degree of security at a central site and destroys it because it makes the least secure end-node machine the "best" security you now have, and if those computers are personal and not under some form of active management the security of said system as a whole is now effectively zero. In an environment where even a modest amount of security is required you must have all such computers under domain control with group policy settings, you must have full-disk encryption on (e.g. Bitlocker) with some rationally strong control of the keys for same and you must have set and push Exchange policies to prevent this sort of thing from happening. We know for a fact that none of those things were done because the public record shows that even rudimentary (SSL) security on the clinton email server was intentionally shut off at one point and there is zero evidence that any sort of domain control or group policy, say much less exchange policy settings or encryption of data-at-rest, was implemented.

Why did all this happen? It happened because people who understand how to design, implement and operate a reasonably secure communication system are also intelligent enough to realize that if they aid and abet a potentially criminal enterprise they will go to prison! You therefore simply don't get the "best and brightest" or even the minimally competent people to do such a job, and those you do get will sit back and let one of the principals scream at them about security restrictions being "too much" and drop shields in response instead of replying with "That's insecure, I won't do it, and if you don't quit your hollering at me and shut your damned yap right now I quit!"

How dumb is this? If there needs to be security, very dumb indeed. It is dumb not because Huma is stupid but because she was ignorant, and as it turns out she has a pervert for a husband. There's a very good reason why, when you're looked at for a security clearance, those who you associate with most-closely are looked at too. In this case it's utterly outrageous that Huma had any sort of clearance beyond Weiner's 2011 resignation from Congress because his inability to keep his dick in his pants and lying about it were, at that point, a matter of public record. Sexual indiscretions that you lie about and try to keep secret are one of the big red flags when it comes to security clearances because they are very potent blackmail material.

Had Huma and Weiner divorced then and never lived or been together beyond that point there might be reason, post-2011, to let her have and retain a clearance. But that's not what happened. In point of fact Huma has been Clinton's "right hand woman" with access to both her and acting on her behalf during the entire time from 2009 to 2013 when she left as Secretary of State.

Huma apparently was granted a Top Secret clearance in 2009; how she managed to not have it immediately revoked in 2011 given that her husband was at that point known to be a security risk and she did not leave him is pretty damn odd. But then again, these are the Clintons, right? Never mind Huma's past factual history through the 1990s and early 2000s in association with muslim organizations that have a colorable connection to extremism. Of course we'll never know what the investigation into that in 2009 disclosed, how in-depth it was and whether "someone" (e.g. Obama) essentially poisoned what is supposed to be an impartial review.

Now let's talk about today.

The Democrats are raising hell about Comey's "timing" and some are even arguing that he violated The Hatch Act. Let's get real -- Comey promised, under oath, to provide any updates he got on the email situation before Congress. He was advised of this a day before he told Congress about it, which is hardly "sandbagging" or anything like that. Quite arguably he had to notify Congress or potentially be held susceptible to a perjury charge, never mind his already-tarnished reputation. What's even worse is that it appears the FBI person who did know about them earlier is potentially poisoned himself by Clinton-linked campaign donations to a family member!

Now here's the problem -- by making the notification Comey basically shot himself politically. This, after multiple press reports that he already had a literal mutiny on his hands both within the FBI and at his home, with his own wife being furious that he had not referred the investigation for indictment previously.

Let's remember that Comey stood up on national television, described in public the presence of all of the elements of a violation of Federal law, and then said "no reasonable prosecutor would bring the case." He essentially told the nation that because it was a Clinton under investigation the presence of a smoking gun, hair, blood and fingerprints belonging to Hillary on the weapon and a dead body at her feet the "facts" would not lead any "reasonable prosecutor" to charge her!

Absolutely nobody who is literate and can read the actual Statute (which is public, I remind you) could possibly get through that news conference and have it pass the giggle test. Yet he did it, and had a mutiny on his hands -- with good reason -- for doing so.

I have said publicly, and I stand in front of those words, that utterly nobody should ever assist or respect the FBI or any other law enforcement agency so long as this sort of blatant, raw, political corruption remains in America. I'm not alone in that sentiment. The FBI is supposed to be the elite federal law enforcement agency of the United States and is supposed to investigate and refer any clear violation of federal laws for prosecution. When the director stands on national television, describes such a violation in detail, putting forward every element of said crime as printed in the Statute, and then dismisses same on national television he has destroyed said agency and its integrity.

Period.

So why did Comey do it? I don't know. Maybe what was really there is so thermonuclear that he believed that if he did refer it the ultimate result would be the destruction of the nation. Maybe he's a political hack. Maybe he was threatened by Clinton; it's not like that hasn't happened before.

What I do know is that by sending his letter last week Comey did an extraordinary thing and the only reason to do it is that failure to do it was more harmful, in his opinion, than doing it.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Let's remember here that what led to this was an investigation of Weiner allegedly sexting an underage girl. The investigation began with NY authorities and then the FBI gained jurisdiction when it became clear that the other party was across state lines. This is an extremely serious charge, standing alone folks -- interstate sexual offenses involving minors are serious business and people go to prison for a very, very long time if they are proved to have committed those acts. Those are good laws, not bad ones. By the point the FBI got jurisdiction and exclusive control of the evidence, however, it has to be assumed that NY State authorities, either in the NYPD or the NY State Police, had access to at least some of the material in question via forensic investigation, and perhaps to all of it.

That leads me to believe that what was uncovered in those emails and on that laptop was nuclear waste-grade incriminating evidence and not toward Weiner or Huma, either of whom could be charged individually without much of an impact on anything else.

No, whatever was found had to relate to Hillary personally, it had to be of sufficient magnitude that James Comey came to the conclusion by manifest weight of the evidence that Hillary Clinton had committed acts so serious that she could not serve in the Office of President.

There are plenty of rumors flying around about exactly what was discovered. Those 650,000 emails may well include every one that Hillary and her staff tried to "bleach." If even one of them evidences felony criminal conduct then the game is up because we have now gone from the conduct itself to intentional destruction of evidence for the purpose of covering up a crime.

My best guess is that not only is that conduct documented in these emails but that one or more of the acts involve something so outrageous that James Comey decided that irrespective of his personal reputation, his job and maybe even his life he could not allow Hillary Clinton to be elected come next Tuesday, and he was willing to flush everything he is and has down the toilet to stop it from happening.

Before you call my belief on this regard crazy consider this -- there was a judge who signed off on a warrant for that laptop on the weekend, which means they called him or her up, presented the evidence and he or she agreed it was serious enough to provide the FBI with the warrant they were requesting to search that device on an immediate basis -- said judge believed that approval could not wait until normal business hours, nor was it a "close call" and thus required some time to think it over, despite the FBI having the device in their possession and thus there being no risk of it being tampered with or destroyed.

We'll see if I'm right, but in the meantime consider this:

If he's right, and you ignore both his decision and that of a federal judge, in that you choose to vote for Hillary anyway, then you, not he, are personally responsible for whatever occurs as a consequence -- including, quite possibly, the literal death of not only America but also your children, grandchildren and yourself.


----------



## sags

tygrus said:


> Yes true, however because she flouted govt procedure and security systems (which have multiple built in protection and surveillance for such an event) and housed it on her own server, *she is responsible*.
> 
> When I worked at a big company and we used email remotely, we had to log onto the companies secure server first before accessing our accounts. Those servers had the most up to date software and security and were monitored around the clock by a bunch of IT geeks. Imagine what the US govt has in place. And Hillary in all her wisdom chooses as senator and SoS decides to use a AOL online account.


In the inimitable paraphrased words of President Richard Nixon on the Watergate Scandal.

_As your President I accept full responsibility....but not the blame.

Let me explain the difference.

Those who are to blame lose their jobs. Responsible people do not.
_

Clinton was careless and irresponsible. She has accepted full responsibility for that.

She was not in violation of any criminal laws, and was not charged for breaking any laws.


----------



## olivaw

Something that speaks to fitness for office ......

*Donald Trump, Pentagon differ on Mosul fight's success*

Donald Trump tweeted _"the attack on Mosul is turning out to be a total disaster. We gave them months of notice. U.S. is looking so dumb"_. 

Soldiers on the ground and the Pentagon say that the advance on Mosul is going according to plan. 

I think the Pentagon and the soldiers are right. ISIL is outta there.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Breaking news-the FBI just found 10000 emails on Huma and Weiner's computer-they were in a file marked LIFE INSURANCE.


You really should source these claims. It's hard to tell what is just twisted version of the truth vs complete fabrication you heard on facebook.


----------



## TomB19

So a vote for Hillary is a vote to kill your country, children, grandchildren, and yourself. Noted.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> You really should source these claims. It's hard to tell what is just twisted version of the truth vs complete fabrication you heard on facebook.


I still say my joke is funnier than yours.


----------



## sags

It looks like the results of any investigation of the emails on Weiner's laptop will come after the election.

So, it doesn't change much. People will still vote for the candidate they view as the best for President.

Good grief though. With all this ammunition to use....what epic failure of timing for the Republicans to choose the least electable candidate.

Even if Clinton is impeached, VP Tim Kaine would take over as President.


----------



## sags

The popular vote is tightening, but Clinton maintains comfortable leads in States that Trump must win to get to 270 electoral votes.

He still needs to win all of the battleground states and a few solidly Democrat states from Clinton.

That would require a divine intervention and I doubt Trump can count on that.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Good grief though. With all this ammunition to use....what epic failure of timing for the Republicans to choose the least electable candidate.


Isn't it?


----------



## bass player

Rusty...great posts 4099 and 4100. Unfortunately, the very valid points they make have been and will continue to be completely ignored by the Hillary supporters.


----------



## olivaw

Ex-GOP primary candidate, Governor John Kasich voted on Monday and wrote in John McCain. Kasich cited the "grab em by the p....." tape for not voting for Donald Trump.


----------



## tygrus

sags, you need to get a spin job. All of this is highly negative for clinton even if she wins. She end up to be a tragic disgraced figure just like weiner. And the VP has no mandate. He will be a place holder is all.


----------



## sags

Karl Denninger, is an original founder of the Tea Party, a far right conservative and has forecast financial events in the past that didn't happen.

But he did own an internet service company, so I have to acknowledge that. He also has some ties to Russian media, Zerohedge and other conspiracy websites.

In my admitted limited understand of computer security, I believe Mr. Denninger's comments beg some follow up questions.

I would question how classified information is circulated if it only remains on a completely isolated computer disconnected from the internet.

Government agencies share information, including classified information. How do they send it to each other simultaneously if not by internet ?

Sending classified information to and from embassies around the world by courier would take many hours, if not days.

A government may not have the luxury of waiting hours or days for the information.


----------



## sags

olivaw said:


> Ex-GOP primary candidate, Governor John Kasich voted on Monday and wrote in John McCain. Kasich cited the "grab em by the p....." tape for not voting for Donald Trump.


Arizona GOP party chief voted for John McCain, but said he won't vote or financially support Donald Trump.

The Republicans could lose Arizona, a traditional Republican stronghold because of Trump's comments about Senator McCain, and Mexicans and Latinos. Trump's comments about women haven't helped his campaign either.

Trump alienated all the voter groups that he needed to win. He will lose from self inflicted wounds.


----------



## sags

CNN's John King went over the electoral map again tonight.

Although the downside of the recent announcements aren't factored in yet.........this is how it stands.

Clinton already has 270 electoral seats if she holds on to those states that are solidly Democrat.

Trump needs to hold on to all Republican leaning States, win all 6 battleground states despite Clinton having a big lead in some of them, and steal at least one or more States from Clinton's base.

In Florida, which Trump badly needs to win and which would put Hillary way over the top with an additional 29 electoral votes, reports are that the African American vote is down a little, but the Latino vote is skyrocketing. This is not good news for Donald Trump.

King said Trump's chances are the same as winning the Powerball Lottery.


----------



## sags

The FBI announced the results of their investigation won't be known until after the election.

On CNN, legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and former FBI Tom Fuentis said the Clinton email investigation has been "re-opened" because a search warrant can only be sought for an open investigation.

The laptop will be examined at Quantico, and specialized software will glean the computer according to headers and addresses, and the results will be gleaned by software for the inclusion of classified information.

They say it will take some time to perform all the procedures.

Meanwhile, FBI director James Comey is under severe criticism by former AGs in both Democratic and Republican administrations, including the administration of George W. Bush. It looks like Comey may have severely damaged his future career options.

Donald Trump's "burn all the bridges" campaign has left him with few friends in Washington.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> The FBI announced the results of their investigation won't be known until after the election.
> 
> On CNN, legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and former FBI Tom Fuentis said the Clinton email investigation has been "re-opened" because a search warrant can only be sought for an open investigation.
> 
> The laptop will be examined at Quantico, and specialized software will glean the computer according to headers and addresses, and the results will be gleaned by software for the inclusion of classified information.
> 
> They say it will take some time to perform all the procedures.
> 
> Meanwhile, FBI director James Comey is under severe criticism by former AGs in both Democratic and Republican administrations, including the administration of George W. Bush.
> 
> Donald Trump's "burn all the bridges" campaign has left him with few friends in Washington.


Trump has very few friends in Washington because he has pledged to drain the swamp of the garbage you worship daily.


----------



## olivaw

Breaking news: Don't be a moron. Vote for Hillary.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> Karl Denninger, is an original founder of the Tea Party, a far right conservative and has forecast financial events in the past that didn't happen.
> 
> But he did own an internet service company, so I have to acknowledge that. He also has some ties to Russian media, Zerohedge and other conspiracy websites.
> 
> In my admitted limited understand of computer security, I believe Mr. Denninger's comments beg some follow up questions.
> 
> I would question how classified information is circulated if it only remains on a completely isolated computer disconnected from the internet.
> 
> Government agencies share information, including classified information. How do they send it to each other simultaneously if not by internet ?
> 
> Sending classified information to and from embassies around the world by courier would take many hours, if not days.
> 
> A government may not have the luxury of waiting hours or days for the information.


There are secure ways to send information over the net. Denninger goes into this in previous posts. With his technical background, he is very aware of security problems even on ordinary computers and hand held devices. No doubt the US government experts are way ahead of anything available to the general public. They could have set up a system for Clinton but apparently she refused, preferring to use a home made system with no security at all, not even a password. It would have been a pushover for anyone who wanted in on US government secrets, which is every other government in the world.

Among other things I found out from him, is that both Apple and Android devices have back doors built into the programming that make it a cinch for anyone to break into any device, if they know how. This was meant to be a secret only the FBI, NSA and CIA knew about but now the secret is out. These back doors are not hard to use, for a computer expert, if you know how to look for them. 

The only phone system that does NOT have back doors built in, and is therefore secure, is the Blackberry. Now you know why the President and other top officials still use the "obsolete" Blackberry, and why someone is working so hard to kill it and keep it out of the hands of the public.


----------



## olivaw

^This is not entirely accurate. There are no NSA, FBI and CIA back doors built into commercial systems. The NSA employs some of the most brilliant mathematicians in the world. Many believe (and evidence suggests) that they do know how to hack into phones, computers and email systems but they have not disclosed the limits to what they can do. All we have is conjecture.

Backdoors were employed in the old mainframe days to enable SYSops to hack into their own systems. They are not intentionally inserted into commercially available operating systems.

Many hacks are accomplished using simple techniques:
- SYSops leave administrative passwords at the default
- users fall for phishing emails (links directing them to fake sites where they enter credentials)
- social engineering (people give passwords or access to smooth talkers)
- Trojan horses (people download programs that contain spyware)
- physical surveillance 

(There is one US government virus that was used to interfere with Iran and it got into the wild but that is not what that author said.)

Hacking has changed since Hillary Clinton was SOC. 4 years is a lifetime in the technology world.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> Karl Denninger, is an original founder of the Tea Party, a far right conservative and has forecast financial events in the past that didn't happen.
> 
> But he did own an internet service company, so I have to acknowledge that. He also has some ties to Russian media, Zerohedge and other conspiracy websites.
> 
> In my admitted limited understand of computer security, I believe Mr. Denninger's comments beg some follow up questions.
> 
> I would question how classified information is circulated if it only remains on a completely isolated computer disconnected from the internet.
> 
> Government agencies share information, including classified information. How do they send it to each other simultaneously if not by internet ?
> 
> Sending classified information to and from embassies around the world by courier would take many hours, if not days.
> 
> A government may not have the luxury of waiting hours or days for the information.


A more detailed discussion of cyber security by Denninger

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231575


----------



## olivaw

CNN offers a more recent assessment, corroborated by cyberfirms and the US government. 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/28/politics/phishing-email-hack-john-podesta-hillary-clinton-wikileaks/



> The US government has pinned other cyberattacks targeting Democratic groups -- including the summer's hack of the Democratic National Committee -- on the Russian government, though it has not yet accused Moscow of the Podesta hack. Moscow has denied involvement.
> 
> SecureWorks, however, says Friday's email thread provides proof of Russia's involvement in the Podesta hack. *The group points to evidence that "Fancy Bear" -- the name of the cyberespionage group also believed to have carried out the allegedly Russia-led DNC hacks -- was involved in the Podesta thefts.*
> 
> *"Fancy Bear" is a nickname for one of the Russian military-intelligence hacking groups that were discovered in the DNC's servers. Other cyberfirms have corroborated these findings, as has the US government*.


----------



## olivaw

Obama appeared on Samantha Bee on Monday. 






Bee:_ If and when Hillary is president, what do you think will be the female equivalent of 'you weren't born in this country?_

Obama: _That's an interesting question, I think the equivalent will be, 'She's tired, she's moody, she's being emotional_

Bee: _There's just something about her?_

Obama: _There's something about her. When men are ambitious, it's just taken for granted. Well of course they should be ambitious, When women are ambitious, why? That theme, I think, will continue throughout her presidency and it's contributed to this notion that somehow, she is hiding something."_

Bee: _What a nasty woman_


----------



## wraphter

Obambi said:


> That theme, I think, will continue throughout her presidency and it's contributed to this notion that somehow, she is hiding something."


Hiding something? 
What could she be hiding by using a private server?

To start off,she lied to the public that she only used one mobile device.Turns out she used 13.

She lied that she didn't send/receive classified material. Turns out there were 112 classified emails in 52 chains including some at the
top secret and secret level. 2000 were up-classified to confidential,the lowest level.

She first said that she never handled marked emails. It doesn't matter whether they were marked or not.

She had her lawyer destroy emails they said were private. Very suspicious considering they were the subject of an investigation.

She lied when she said the Benghazi attack was caused by the anti-Muslim video. 
She told Chelsea it was done by terrorists.

She had a bout of amnesia when questioned by the FBI in July.
She couldn't remember over thirty times.

Her husband interfered with a federal investigation when he got on Loretta Lynch's airplane.








The Clinton Foundation is now under investigation for pay- to- play involving her at the State Dept.



> FBI agents pressed Justice unsuccessfully for probe of Clinton Foundation
> 
> FBI agents argued — based at least in part on news accounts — earlier this year that the Clinton Foundation should be investigated for potentially giving donors special political access and favors. The Justice Department’s public integrity unit said they did not have enough evidence to move forward.
> 
> The Clinton Foundation said it was never contacted by the FBI, suggesting the bureau’s efforts were in a preliminary stage as prosecutors weighed in. But agents in New York have sought to keep their inquiries alive, feuding with the Justice Department about the lengths to which they can go, according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> That infighting became public Sunday, when the Wall Street Journal published a detailed account of interactions between prosecutors and FBI officials over the politically sensitive subject.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Obama appeared on Samantha Bee on Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bee:_ If and when Hillary is president, what do you think will be the female equivalent of 'you weren't born in this country?_
> 
> Obama: _That's an interesting question, I think the equivalent will be, 'She's tired, she's moody, she's being emotional_
> 
> Bee: _There's just something about her?_
> 
> Obama: _There's something about her. When men are ambitious, it's just taken for granted. Well of course they should be ambitious, When women are ambitious, why? That theme, I think, will continue throughout her presidency and it's contributed to this notion that somehow, she is hiding something."_
> 
> Bee: _What a nasty woman_


To be fair to the guy-WTF is he supposed to say on this show? He could be honest and say-look-Crooked Hillary is a total mess and every thinking person in this country knows it including you and me Samantha-putting this broad in as POTUS is a frigging joke. He couldn't say that because he isn't Trump.


----------



## Nelley

The same poll (ABC) that had Crooked Hillary up by a huge 12 points Oct 25 now has Trump by 1-quite the swing.


----------



## wraphter

The 5 most outrageous things Hillary Clinton said in her FBI interview



> . She cited her 2012 concussion as the reason that she cannot remember details of briefings during her "transition out of office."
> 
> 2. She said she never even thought whether emails she exchanged on a future U.S. drone attack should be classified.
> 
> 3. She said she thought the "C" before a paragraph indicated alphabetical order. The C actually stands for "classified."
> 
> 4. She said no one ever raised concerns to her about her use of a private email server.
> 
> 5. She said she could not recall any training on how to handle classified information.
> 
> ........
> 
> No. 2 stretches the limits of credulity. We're supposed to believe Clinton never even considered a discussion about a future drone attack should be kept secret? Saying "I never thought," basically sounds like a dodge on a charge of possible pre-meditation.
> 
> As for the claim that no one ever talked to her about any concerns about the private server, that's dangerous territory. Because it's probably not going to be hard to find someone at the State Department, or formerly at the State Department, to contradict this claim. In fact, there are many statements just now released from this FBI interview that are likely going to be refuted and in short order.
> 
> The "I could not recall" response to the question about prior training is a classic defendant's dodge. It works great because even if Clinton did get training, it can be argued that it doesn't matter because she doesn't remember it. But while it's a good legal dodge, it's potentially lethal in the midst of an election where you're trying to look like a competent and alert leader.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It is absurd to think the US government has no secure communications systems in place. If Clinton as Secretary of State didn't use them, it was because they were offered to her and she refused.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It is absurd to think the US government has no secure communications systems in place. If Clinton as Secretary of State didn't use them, it was because they were offered to her and she refused.


It would have been impossible for Crooked Hillary to do what she did-destroy evidence of criminal activity-using the secure government system-she knew this from the beginning and felt it was worth the risk-so we know the payday was gigantic.


----------



## olivaw

SNL from March 2015. Hillary Clinton on emails. (She hadn't announced yet ....)


----------



## olivaw

The New York Times broke the email server story.

and now ... 

*Donald Trump Used Legally Dubious Method to Avoid Paying Taxes*

Lets have an investigation to go along with 
- Trump's rape lawsuit
- Trump's trial for Trump U fraud
- The investigation into the Trump foundation


----------



## bass player

Yeah...let's investigate Trump for using a legal method to lower taxes while ignoring all of Hillary's misdeeds, lol.

The left is truly pathetic.


----------



## olivaw

NY Times: *Confidence Even as Hillary Clinton’s Momentum Slows*



> And while Mr. Trump has crowed about the 11th-hour twist to the race, the F.B.I. director’s letter about the emails has not yet produced a major shift in private polling, according to Republican and Democratic strategists with access to confidential data, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Mrs. Clinton’s lead over Mr. Trump appears to have contracted modestly, but not enough to threaten her advantage over all or to make the electoral math less forbidding for Mr. Trump, Republicans and Democrats said.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Yeah...let's investigate Trump for using a legal method to lower taxes while ignoring all of Hillary's misdeeds, lol.
> .


How are we supposed to know if they are legal if we don't have an investigation ? 

Do we automatically assume guilt with Trump too? Or is that just for Hillary?


----------



## bass player

Speaking of investigations...it now turns out that the Democrats were made aware that Weiner had been texting an underage girl in 2011, but chose to do nothing about it. Therefore, the Democrats (and one must assume Huma also knew) protected a potential pedophile 5 years ago and only cut ties with him once the news became public and he became a liability.

An investigation is needed to see if the Democrats protected a pedophile.


----------



## sags

An investigation is needed to see if the investigations of the investigations are honest.

_Quite a mess we have here Stanley........_


----------



## sags

Regardless of all the surrounding hoopla, it looks like Hillary Clinton will be the next President.

It also looks like 4 more years of accusations, wrangling, obfuscation, and nothing getting done.

And America says to the world............don't you want a democracy just like ours ?

Ummm...........no.


----------



## sags

Thankfully, Justin Trudeau is saying that Canadians are not as receptive to changes to our political system as he thought they would be.

Hopefully he will drop the idea of changing our political system. It works as it is and we don't need electoral reform that creates a mess.


----------



## Nelley

FIVE criminal investigations ongoing at the FBI on the Gambino-sorry my mistake-Clinton Crime Family http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ally-one-Clinton-s-inner-circle-families.html


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Regardless of all the surrounding hoopla, it looks like Hillary Clinton will be the next President.
> 
> It also looks like 4 more years of accusations, wrangling, obfuscation, and nothing getting done.
> 
> A*nd America says to the world............don't you want a democracy just like ours* ?



They can shove their politics and lack of gun control..just give us their money as legal tender.

I'm tired of paying 33% discount on Canadian funds when I have to send money (gifts) to my daughter in AZ.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Courtesy Charles Hugh Smith and of two minds.com. He is talking about Clinton but this could just as well apply to Trump. I'm afraid America is up **** creek without a paddle no matter who wins.

If there is any lesson to be learned from the ghosts of Watergate, it is that the big-money support of a leader who has lost the ability to deliver the goods crumbles very quickly as the endgame unfolds.
The parallels between Hillary Clinton and Richard Nixon are not legal--they are political: specifically, how can a leader crippled by scandal and cover-ups govern?
In even blunter terms: how can a crippled politico deliver the goods to the special interests who bet their cash and political capital on the politico's ability to deliver favors?
Among the many ghosts of Watergate, one specter especially haunts Hillarynce the special interests and party stalwarts who defended you through every scandal and every cover-up--month after month and year after year, on the promise that you would deliver the goods upon ascending to the presidency--realize you are too damaged to deliver anything of value to anyone, why would they continue supporting you?
Once a politico has to declare "I am not a crook" based on legalese rather than a moral foundation, that politico's ability to lead has vanished. Hillary and her supporters rely entirely on legalese parsing of wrong-doing rather than on a self-explanatory, basic moral foundation of right and wrong.
Declaring "I am not a crook" because the wrongdoing escapes prosecution is the same as declaring "I am above the law." If the foundation of one's ability to lead is a reliance on legal parsing and allies in the Department of Justice squashing investigations while handing out immunity like candy on Halloween, the political capital required to lead no longer exists.
Ultimately, the President leads by moral suasion. Even the political act of delivering the goods to the special interests that funded your campaign and your wealth must be backed by the moral authority of personal integrity and a morally grounded appeal to the common good.
A politician who has effectively zero personal integrity is only as viable as his/her ability to deliver favors to the few (i.e. special interests) over the objections of the many. A reliance on cold-blooded horse-trading only works if the leader has enough political capital to arm-twist everyone into granting favors to allies and special interests.
But this political capital rests on moral suasion and support earned not by issuing promises but by leading the nation through thorny thickets to solutions that work for the many, not just the few.
Once the ability to lead has been lost, special interests can forget about getting favors. And once they realize their politico is a liability rather than an asset, self-preservation requires abandoning the liability as quickly as possible.
It's nothing personal, it's just business. Anyone who thinks Hillary has the personal integrity to build sufficient political capital to lead is delusional. Anyone who believes Hillary has the moral foundation to deliver the goods to the myriad special interests that have funded her campaign and her personal wealth is equally delusional.
Are Goldman Sachs et al. delusional? If there is any lesson to be learned from the ghosts of Watergate, it is that the big-money support of a leader who has lost the ability to deliver the goods crumbles very quickly as the endgame unfolds.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Thankfully, Justin Trudeau is saying that Canadians are not as receptive to changes to our political system as he thought they would be.
> 
> Hopefully he will drop the idea of changing our political system. It works as it is and we don't need electoral reform that creates a mess.


He just appointed 6 non-partisan senators recently. 

Too bad the current rules make it verfy hard to get rid of the duffer and Brazeau, who have done nothing
except to lick the boots of former PM Harper and still on the payroll with a fat pension plan while thousands of civil servants are doing without
pay because of the gov'ts pay system screwups. Doesn't seem right somehow.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Whew! A bit lengthy...
> 
> 
> 
> Once the ability to lead has been lost, special interests can forget about getting favors. And once they realize their politico is a liability rather than an asset, s*elf-preservation requires abandoning the liability as quickly as possible.*
> It's nothing personal, it's just business. Anyone who thinks Hillary has the personal integrity to build sufficient political capital to lead is delusional. Anyone who believes Hillary has the moral foundation to deliver the goods to the myriad special interests that have funded her campaign and her personal wealth is equally delusional.
> 
> 
> 
> I think we are starting to understand that with all this crazy political rhetoric from both, .but what I want to know ..is she the lesser of two evils at this point , or just the same as Trump but in a different perspective, who will take the country down the wrong path.
> 
> 
> 
> If there is any lesson to be learned from the ghosts of Watergate, it is that the big-money support of a leader who has lost the ability to deliver the goods crumbles very quickly as the endgame unfolds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apparently in US politics, posturing and pandering, crime does seem to pay. I don't know what other things she had done, other than the emails being investigated now by the FBI, but with only 8? days to go, it's too late to turn back the clock on the election their election machine.
> 
> Is there any "whitehouse plumbers" actively working on Trump's or Clinton's election committees?
> 
> What's this stuff about a boyfriend of one her advisor's (Anthony Weiner), involved in sexting emails to 15 year old underage girls....what has that got to do with her election campaign? Nasty stuff these US elections!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clinton's private email server is under the microscope again and Anthony Weiner, the former New York congressman and estranged husband of Clinton adviser Huma Abedin, might be involved. FBI Director James Comey wrote to Congress on Friday that the bureau is looking at the emails on the server “in connection with an unrelated case.”
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## sags

_He just appointed 6 non-partisan senators recently. _ 

Which is the right thing to do, but a big political mistake.

His enemies will just find something else to complain about.

He might as well have picked biased liberals and at least had some support from the Senate.

Obama tried the "nice guy" approach for awhile and where did that get him ?

Clinton isn't elected yet, and already the Republicans are lining up their cannons at her.

In politics, it doesn't pay to play nice. Neither Clinton nor Trump can be accused of that.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

carverman said:


> Rusty O'Toole said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whew! A bit lengthy...
> 
> 
> I think we are starting to understand that with all this crazy political rhetoric from both, .but what I want to know ..is she the lesser of two evils at this point , or just the same as Trump but in a different perspective, who will take the country down the wrong path.
> 
> 
> Apparently in US politics, posturing and pandering, crime does seem to pay. I don't know what other things she had done, other than the emails being investigated now by the FBI, but with only 8? days to go, it's too late to turn back the clock on the election their election machine.
> 
> Is there any "whitehouse plumbers" actively working on Trump's or Clinton's election committees?
> 
> What's this stuff about a boyfriend of one her advisor's (Anthony Weiner), involved in sexting emails to 15 year old underage girls....what has that got to do with her election campaign? Nasty stuff these US elections!
> 
> 
> 
> What I meant was neither Clinton nor Trump will come out of this campaign with the confidence of the Washington heavy hitters or the big business interests although for different reasons. Smith claims that without these things it is impossible to get things done and I believe he has a point. That is what I meant by up the creek without a paddle.
> 
> Anthony Weiner is (not was) the husband (not boyfriend) of Huma Abedin, Hillary Clinton's chief of staff and constant companion. They just found 650,000 emails from Clinton's office on his computer. It probably includes the complete file of all her official emails for a period of 10 years or more including ones that were supposed to be erased, 'bleached' or otherwise gone missing. The computer was not secure and Weiner has no security clearance. Due to his peculiar sexual tastes he is wide open to blackmail. This is enough to give any counter espionage or security officer the screaming fidgets. For her to allow this to happen is, to say the least, careless. It is, to say the most, treason. People have been sent to prison for less.
> 
> It came to light when the New York police arrested Wiener and seized his computer which he was using to set up a liaison with a 15 year old girl. Because he is from New York and the girl lives in North Carolina it became a matter of crossing state lines for immoral purposes which brought the FBI into it. They discovered a file of 650,000 emails shared by his wife, Huma Abedin, Hillary Clinton's chief of staff. They immediately applied to a judge for a search warrant. What all will come of this, it is too soon to tell but the FBI seems to be taking it seriously.
> 
> This is just a minor sub plot in the soap opera of corruption that is the Clintons.
Click to expand...


----------



## sags

Economically a lame duck President can't do much, but in foreign affairs they could make a real mess of things.

I don't pay much attention to any of Trump's proposals on economics. Some sound like I would agree with, but his temperament and lack of knowledge would make him very dangerous as the Commander in Chief, and for me that overrides all other considerations.


----------



## bass player

What would you do if this was your daughter? If Trump acted this creepy, it would be played in a 24/7 loop on CNN complete with outraged Democrats calling for his head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4OYPiV1GsY


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> I don't pay much attention to any of Trump's proposals on economics. Some sound like I would agree with, but his temperament and lack of knowledge would make him very dangerous as the Commander in Chief, and for me that overrides all other considerations.


Trump has also said he would implement term limits for all elected officials. Two terms, as I recall.

Trump has some good ideas. I'm with much of his platform but he is such a space cadet, I can't get behind him.

On the other hand, Mike Pense is the traditional Republican stooge who is exactly the sort of person I would think a Trump voter would want Trump to get rid of.

Trump / Pense is a losing ticket. It makes no sense.

Clinton / Kaine: Adequate together!

lol!


----------



## olivaw

I'm not prepared to accept the conclusion that Hillary is a barely adequate alternative to Trump yet. Birtherism convinced me that Republicans will not accept the legitimacy of a Democratic president - or at least one who is not a white male. 33 Benghazi hearings convinced me that the Republicans were too eager to create scandals where none exist. Mitch McConnells "deny Obama a second term" convinced me that politics outweighed governance. 

If it wasn't the email server it would be something else. 

When I see Hillary, I see a hard working person who has dedicated her life to doing what she believes is best for her country. I may not agree with everything she wants to accomplish - but at least she knows how to compromise and she conducts herself with a certain dignity. 

Trump has one or two nice sounding ideas and a dozen horrible ideas. Regardless, he's too autocratic to accomplish anything in the US system and too willing to promote divisive policies. He's also, kind of a liar and a jerk.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> I'm not prepared to accept the conclusion that Hillary is a barely adequate alternative to Trump yet. Birtherism convinced me that Republicans will not accept the legitimacy of a Democratic president - or at least on who is not a white male.


As usual, you ignore facts that don't fit Democrat talking points. Sid Blumenthal start birtherism when he worked for Hillary.

And you repeat the same Democrat lie...that anyone who questions Obama's failed presidency only does so because he is black. That's another deplorable Democrat tactic...accuse people of being racist when competence is being questioned.

Democrats have proven themselves to be immature crybabies that lie and stamp their feet whenever they are faced with inconvenient facts or when their flawed world view is proven wrong. They can be read like a book...


----------



## Nelley

I think we can all agree at this point-no matter what side you are on-that the best outcome for the USA going forward is to put this Sick Demented Criminal Puppet in a cage with the other criminal degenerates. If the FBI can manage that, the optimism and happiness that will result for the society is evident.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> I think we can all agree at this point-no matter what side you are on-that the best outcome for the USA going forward is to put this Sick Demented Criminal Puppet in a cage with the other criminal degenerates. If the FBI can manage that, the optimism and happiness that will result for the society is evident.


^Conspiracy Nelley, you will miss your internet locked up in that cage.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> I'm not prepared to accept the conclusion that Hillary is a barely adequate alternative to Trump yet. Birtherism convinced me that Republicans will not accept the legitimacy of a Democratic president - or at least one who is not a white male. 33 Benghazi hearings convinced me that the Republicans were too eager to create scandals where none exist. Mitch McConnells "deny Obama a second term" convinced me that politics outweighed governance.
> 
> If it wasn't the email server it would be something else.
> 
> When I see Hillary, I see a hard working person who has dedicated her life to doing what she believes is best for her country. I may not agree with everything she wants to accomplish - but at least she knows how to compromise and she conducts herself with a certain dignity.
> 
> Trump has one or two nice sounding ideas and a dozen horrible ideas. Regardless, he's too autocratic to accomplish anything in the US system and too willing to promote divisive policies. He's also, kind of a liar and a jerk.


Olivaw the Founding Fathers put into the Constitution, that a candidate for President had to be a natural born American citizen or naturalized before 1789. Every single candidate for more than 200 years complied with the law and nobody thought anything about it. Then all of a sudden in 2008 it became 'rayciss'? Give me a break.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

If you are wondering how the Wiener laptop discovery can be such a huge deal, and potential Plutonium bomb for the Clinton camp, let an internet expert explain -

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231606


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you are wondering how the Wiener laptop discovery can be such a huge deal, and potential Plutonium bomb for the Clinton camp, let an internet expert explain -
> 
> https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231606


IMO it looks like Comey knows the evidence is there to criminally prosecute Hillary Clinton and feels it would be better if she wasn't POTUS-if she wins this election it will be a real mess obviously.


----------



## sags

An ode to Republicans............

_Black water Hillary lived back in the swamp
Where the Washington politicos crawl
Back stabbers hang around government stalls
Like sausage on a smokehouse wall
The swamp is alive with a thousand eyes
And all of them watching you
Stay off the track to old Hillary's shack in the back of the Black Bayou

Way up the road from Hillary's shack
Lies a sleepy little DC town
Talk of swamp witch Hillary will lock you in when the sun go down
Rumors of what she'd done, rumors of what she'd do
Kept folks off the track of old Hillary's shack
In the back of the Black Bayou

One day brought the rain and the rain stayed on
And the swamp water overflowed
Skeeters and the fever grabbed the town like a fist
Doc Jackson was the first to go
Some say the plague was brought by Hillary
There was talk of a hanging too
But the talk got shackled by the howls and the cackles
That came from the Black bayou

Early one morn 'tween dark and dawn when shadows filled the sky
There came an unseen caller on a town where hope run dry
In the square there was found a big black round
Vat full of gurgling brew....
Whispering sounds as the folk gathered round
"It came from the Black Bayou"

There ain't much pride when you're trapped inside
A slowly sinking ship
Scooped up the liquid deep and green
And the whole town took a sip
Fever went away and the very next day the skies again were blue
Let's thank old Hillary for saving our town
We'll fetch her from the Black Bayou

Party of ten of the government's best men headed for Hillary's shack
Said Swamp Witch magic was useful and good
And they're gonna bring Hillary back

They never found Hillary and they never found the shack
And they never made the trip back in.
Cause a parchment note they found tacked to a stump said..........

Don't come looking again._

Read more: Jim Stafford - Swamp Witch Lyrics | MetroLyrics


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you are wondering how the Wiener laptop discovery can be such a huge deal, and potential Plutonium bomb for the Clinton camp, let an internet expert explain -
> 
> https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231606


This is awesome news...all the emails that Hillary thinks she deleted and bleached may still be available. If there is any evidence of corruption, graft, and collusion, it will be found. The entire Corrupt Clinton Cartel could be in very serious trouble.

DRAIN THE SWAMP!!!


----------



## wraphter

bass player said:


> What would you do if this was your daughter? If Trump acted this creepy, it would be played in a 24/7 loop on CNN complete with outraged Democrats calling for his head:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4OYPiV1GsY


Biden did the same thing with the wife of Ash Carter ,Secretary of Defense,when he was being sworn in. He has had 2 brain aneurysms and
seems a bit off to me.

He is known for his gaffes.

The Dems wanted him to run for President.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> This is awesome news...all the emails that Hillary thinks she deleted and bleached may still be available. If there is any evidence of corruption, graft, and collusion, it will be found. The entire Corrupt Clinton Cartel could be in very serious trouble.
> 
> DRAIN THE SWAMP!!!


If only it is true........Republicans would be like..........

View attachment 12458


----------



## sags

How ironic would it be if Clinton wins by a slim margin that was attributable to Republicans voting for her.


----------



## bass player

The Democrats are sputtering mad that documents have been released regarding Marc Rich's pardon by Bill Clinton in 2001...yet, they have been milking a Trump video from 1996 for weeks.

So, the moral of the story is...20 year old news about Trump is good, 15 year old news about Bill is not playing fair


----------



## twa2w

TomB19 said:


> Trump has also said he would implement term limits for all elected officials. Two terms, as I recall.
> 
> lol!


I agree but with with a slightly different approach.

2 terms, one in office, one in jail ;-)

There is an old saying that there are generally two types of people who run for office. Those who want to do something, and those that want to be somebody. In this election both are in the second camp IMHO.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> If it wasn't the email server it would be something else.


Right,her need to fail,to be punished in front of millions of people,to be publicly embarrassed like before with the sexual scandals of her husband to receive a self-inflicted wound. Yes she would have found another was to screw it up.Her need to be humiliated repeats itself. 
Bill had his scandal now she has hers.
' You see Bill, I am just as good as you'

Good observation.



olivaw said:


> When I see Hillary, I see a hard working person who has dedicated her life to doing what she believes is best for her country.


The woman's a saint,a saint I tell you . Mother Theresa move over. 

The millions she stuffed in her pockets?
Well, a girl has to eat you know.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Anthony Weiner is (not was) the husband (not boyfriend) of Huma Abedin, Hillary Clinton's chief of staff and constant companion. They just found 650,000 emails from Clinton's office on his computer. For her to allow this to happen is, to say the least, careless. It is, to say the most, treason. People have been sent to prison for less.
> 
> It came to light when the New York police arrested Wiener and seized his computer which he was using to set up a liaison with a 15 year old girl. *Because he is from New York and the girl lives in North Carolina it became a matter of crossing state lines for immoral purposes which brought the FBI into it*. They discovered a file of 650,000 emails shared by his wife, Huma Abedin, Hillary Clinton's chief of staff. They immediately applied to a judge for a search warrant. What all will come of this, it is too soon to tell but the FBI seems to be taking it seriously.
> 
> This is just a minor sub plot in the soap opera of corruption that is the Clintons.



"Transporting young gulls across staid lions for immortal porpoises.":biggrin:
Wasn't there a joke about this?^^^^^^


> So the guy takes a shortcut through the forest to the seashore. He fills the bag with baby seagulls. And he's walking back to the forest, When he sees lion, And it is lying, across the path, Directly in front of him.
> It's too late to run away, And the feline does seem so placid. So summoning up all his courage, He steps across the lion.
> Nothing happens. And so with much relief, the guy begins to resume his journey When all of the sudden, the policeman steps aside out of the forest. He grabs the guy by the arm, and says to him,
> 
> "You're under arrest!" The guy can't believe it. He says, "Tell me officer, what's the charge?" And the policeman says,
> "Transporting young gulls across the staid lion for immoral porpoises!"



Another case of life imitating "art"...


----------



## new dog

Or how about the desire of dems and Hillary to pile in illegal immigrants and refugees. Is this the best for the country or the best for more votes for the dems. Trudeau is now trying to pile in immigrants into Canada I read every year to the tune of 300,000 plus a year. 

I hear on this forum about climate change and our resources and such and the same people want to overpopulate Canada in the future. Sure we need immigration but we don't need to grow this fast.


----------



## bass player

You can't make this stuff up!!

Who'da thunk that a second Clinton could be taken down by a wiener?? :smile-new:


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you are wondering how the Wiener laptop discovery can be such a huge deal, and potential Plutonium bomb for the Clinton camp, let an internet expert explain -
> 
> https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231606




i'm left wondering why are you showing us this Rusty? another alt-right crpto who's worked himself up into hysterics over e-mails & now he sounds like he's on the threshhold of cardiac arrest.

as far as i can see, little-known Karl Denninger may have been an internet security expert 20 or 30 years ago, but he sold his company in 1998 & hasn't been heard from since. Instead, he retired to florida & occupied his old age with founding the Tea Party, ultra hardline criticism of banks, guest appearances on russian media & other rightwing activities.

now denninger is swanking back with what he claims is proof that hillary clinton's entire e-mail library as secretary of state must be sitting there - has to be sitting there - on anthony weiner's personal computer.

to underscore a bloated sense of self-importance, mister denninger then shouts out his credentials in bold face type:

*" I'm a subject matter expert in this regard folks."*


idk Rusty. AFAIK nobody has a clue what's on the weiner devices. All that exists is lurid speculation. The FBI isn't offering any details. Won't offer any details until after the election.

superficially, it looks like FBI head james comey was trying to sabotage the election. There's plenty of criticism of comey right now, coming from both republicans & democrats.


.


----------



## bass player

Typical leftist tactic humble...when confronted with inconvenient information, you attack the source instead of responding to the crime.

The fact remains that there is a strong possibility that 10's of thousands of emails that Hillary thought she deleted and bleached may still exist in their entirety and come back to haunt her. This is big news, and rightfully so...

DRAIN THE SWAMP!!!


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> The fact remains that there is a strong possibility that 10's of thousands of emails that Hillary thought she deleted and bleached may still exist in their entirety and come back to haunt her. This is big news



it's not any kind of hard news. It's certainly not big news. It's fantasy buckshot being blown all over the internet by wannabe witch burners.

wondering why you don't calm yourself down & wait to see what, exactly, the FBI will have to say on the matter?

PS cmffer sags also questioned karl denninger's history as founder of the Tea Party. Denninger's alt-right history is germane to this story. Parading denninger around as america's gift to internet security at this late stage in his life - nearly 2 decades after he exited the industry in 1998 - is a ploy that does not work.


.


----------



## agent99

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you are wondering how the Wiener laptop discovery can be such a huge deal, and potential Plutonium bomb for the Clinton camp, let an internet expert explain -
> 
> https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231606


Interesting that Mark Cuban mentioned that emails on Wiener's laptop could be due to IMAP & Exchange links with other computers owned by Huma/Wiener. An idea suggested earlier that a certain individual here rudely tried to shoot down.

It is interesting that if these emails got onto Wiener's laptop via this method, the laptop could still potentially contain emails previously thought to have been deleted. That is if the emails were deleted while original computer was not connected or re-connected to servers.

Remains to be seen if this was the source.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Typical leftist tactic humble...when confronted with inconvenient information, you attack the source instead of responding to the crime.


It is essential that reasonable people consider the source of all information provided on the Internet. If the source lacks credibility then the information should be ignored. 

It's particularly important in this political thread. We have posters who believe (or at least pretend to believe) that the alt-right media is more trustworthy than professional news sources.


----------



## mordko

humble_pie said:


> PS cmffer sags also questioned karl denninger's history as founder of the Tea Party. Denninger's alt-right history is germane to this story. Parading denninger around as america's gift to internet security at this late stage in his life - nearly 2 decades after he exited the industry in 1998 - is a ploy that does not work.
> 
> 
> .


Denninger has no links to Alt Right whatsoever and never had any.


----------



## olivaw

agent99 said:


> Interesting that Mark Cuban mentioned that emails on Wiener's laptop could be due to IMAP & Exchange links with other computers owned by Huma/Wiener. An idea suggested earlier that a certain individual here rudely tried to shoot down.
> 
> It is interesting that if these emails got onto Wiener's laptop via this method, the laptop could still potentially contain emails previously thought to have been deleted. That is if the emails were deleted while original computer was not connected or re-connected to servers.
> 
> Remains to be seen if this was the source.


Makes sense. The emails are, for all intents and purposes, cached on the laptop. It seems reasonable that there are emails. We don't yet know if they are relevant or damaging in any way. The FBI isn't saying.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> It is essential that reasonable people consider the source of all information provided on the Internet. If the source lacks credibility then the information should be ignored.
> 
> It's particularly important in this political thread. We have posters who believe (or at least pretend to believe) that the alt-right media is more trustworthy than professional news sources.


Indeed. In this particular case the source that lacks credibility is HP.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> i'm left wondering why are you showing us this Rusty? another alt-right crpto who's worked himself up into hysterics over e-mails & now he sounds like he's on the threshhold of cardiac arrest.
> 
> as far as i can see, little-known Karl Denninger may have been an internet security expert 20 or 30 years ago, but he sold his company in 1998 & hasn't been heard from since. Instead, he retired to florida & occupied his old age with founding the Tea Party, ultra hardline criticism of banks, guest appearances on russian media & other rightwing activities.
> 
> now denninger is swanking back with what he claims is proof that hillary clinton's entire e-mail library as secretary of state must be sitting there - has to be sitting there - on anthony weiner's personal computer.
> 
> to underscore a bloated sense of self-importance, mister denninger then shouts out his credentials in bold face type:
> 
> *" I'm a subject matter expert in this regard folks."*
> 
> 
> idk Rusty. AFAIK nobody has a clue what's on the weiner devices. All that exists is lurid speculation. The FBI isn't offering any details. Won't offer any details until after the election.
> 
> superficially, it looks like FBI head james comey was trying to sabotage the election. There's plenty of criticism of comey right now, coming from both republicans & democrats.
> 
> 
> .


I'll admit it isn't as thrilling as a 20 year old wisecrack about ***** but I thought it was interesting. If you know of a better or more expert analysis I would like to see it.

I may be indulging in a little tinfoil hat speculation here, but when the FBI seizes a computer and gets a warrant to examine its contents, it makes me think they suspect something.

A few weeks ago Comey was accused of whitewashing Clinton, now he is accused of sabotaging her. To me the most logical explanation is that he did his best NOT to influence the election unduly but now is confronted with evidence he can't ignore.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mordko said:


> Denninger has no links to Alt Right whatsoever and never had any.


Don't confuse them with facts. They aren't interested in facts or original sources, just the politically correct opinions of their politically correct leaders.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> It is essential that reasonable people consider the source of all information provided on the Internet. If the source lacks credibility then the information should be ignored.
> 
> It's particularly important in this political thread. We have posters who believe (or at least pretend to believe) that the alt-right media is more trustworthy than professional news sources.


So it sounds like you Hillary zombies are selling a whopper of a conspiracy theory here-Comey is lying about having found emails on Weiners laptop from the Clinton Crime family-the guy has made the whole thing up just to help Trump (and I guess Putin in your absurd fantasy)-why exactly did they put out the story of 650000 emails? I wouldn't have picked such a large number if the whole thing is a total fabrication like you allege.


----------



## sags

Hey.........Denninger could be right. 

He has made a lot of predictions over the years, but they were all pretty well wrong.

As I recall he prophesied massive deflation that was going to destroy world finances.

I used to follow his website when it was in the old format. I think it was called something else back then.

Dollar Collapse maybe ? I can't remember.

As I recall he was against bailing out banks and GM etc and wanted to let it all burn down.

He could be right this time though. It is a 50/50 guess...either there is damning stuff on the computer or there isn't.

With so much flotsam floating in the air, I will wait to see the proof. 

Either way it is an epic tragedy for democracy.

If Clinton is elected and there is a lot of damning evidence of criminal conduct.........that is really bad.

If Trump wins because the allegations cost Clinton the victory............that is just as bad.

Nobody comes out a winner in this election.


----------



## Nelley

Since everyone loves conspiracy theories-the latest one is that Anthony Weiner got Huma's password and downloaded all the dirty laundry to his laptop as insurance/a bargaining chip re his legal problems. I don't know what is up on this one-IMO 650000 emails don't get onto your laptop unless somebody (Weiner or Huma) went to the trouble of putting them there. OTOH I don't understand computers like Denninger or even understand the premise of how 650000 emails can accidentally end up on your laptop-if that is plausible why not 650 million emails? 650000 emails sounds like Clinton's entire server, not just emails to Huma Abedin.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> Hey.........Denninger could be right.
> 
> He has made a lot of predictions over the years, including massive deflation that was going to destroy world finances.
> 
> He could be right this time, but really it is a 50/50 guess.........either there is stuff on the computer or there isn't.


Denninger did predict a 1930s style deflationary depression after the 2007 real estate crash. He did not count on the bank bailouts, massive money pumping, zero interest rate spree that prevented a deflation and turned the depression into a decade or more of little or no growth. As for destroying world finances in spite of their best efforts there were some spectacular collapses on Wall Street and millions of smaller ones on Main Street not to mention Cyprus and Greece. And now the financial world is stretched thinner than ever with quadrillions in debt hanging over our heads, locked into zero or near zero interest rates with no place to turn if the economy backfires. Yeah everything is peachy.


----------



## sags

Comey should clear the air on at least some of the pertinent facts.

Actually he shouldn't do that, but since he already made public they were investigating.......might as well throw protocol right out the window.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> Since everyone loves conspiracy theories-the latest one is that Anthony Weiner got Huma's password and downloaded all the dirty laundry to his laptop as insurance/a bargaining chip re his legal problems. I don't know what is up on this one-IMO 650000 emails don't get onto your laptop unless somebody (Weiner or Huma) went to the trouble of putting them there. OTOH I don't understand computers like Denninger or even understand the premise of how 650000 emails can accidentally end up on your laptop-if that is plausible why not 650 million emails? 650000 emails sounds like Clinton's entire server, not just emails to Huma Abedin.


If I read Denninger's explanation right, it is possible to download your entire email file without even trying, and have it update itself automatically every time you log in. So maybe Huma borrowed her husband's laptop from time to time, or he had her email password, or it was saved on the computer. In other words they may not even have been aware all those emails were on there. And when she cleaned out her files back at the office, the laptop was offline and shut down which is why none of the emails on it were sent to the recycling bin.

On the other hand if they were stored in a file marked 'Life Insurance' that suggests someone saved them deliberately.

Either way, a major breach of security.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

As for Putin backing Trump, why would he bother when you can buy the Clintons for a few million in speaking fees and charitable contributions?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Denninger's tea party connection may be of interest. Everybody forgets the "tea party" started when President Bush and Congress approved a $700 billion dollar bailout for the banks in 2007. It was reported that letters phone calls and emails ran from 100:1 to 300:1 against. One congressman reported his constituents were evenly divided, half said "NO" and the other half said "HELL NO". They voted for it anyway, and it took less than 24 hours.

This is when people began mailing in tea bags in reference to the Boston Tea Party with the motto "taxation without representation is tyranny".

Denninger got involved about that time organizing meetings in Florida. The idea was to organize protests, and warn politicians that they could work against their re election if they refused to listen to the desires of the public.

It wasn't long before the Tea Party movement was highjacked by a bunch of professional politicians who turned it away from financial matters and turned their attention to a lot of tired old tropes like gay marriage, abortion, Medicare, all kinds of issues that didn't matter a damn and hadn't for 20 years. Then the mocking and laughing started.

About this time Denninger and the other original members figured out they had been had and dropped the whole thing.

After that he did his blog on financial and political matters, and concentrated most of his time on fitness, weight loss, running marathons and other outdoor pursuits.

He is still an opinionated old crank but he backs his opinions up with facts and figures. I don't always agree with him but I find his analyses original and thought provoking.


----------



## sags

I believe the Rick Santelli rant on CNBC also had something to do with the advent of the Tea Party movement.


----------



## sags

Well.....well.....well........The FBI didn't ask Clinton or any of her aides for any of their devices.

All the conspiracy stories about electronic devices "hidden" from the FBI are bogus.

There are questions about why all the devices weren't requested and the FBI says it would involve lawyer's devices with client information on them. It would have been a long drawn out legal battle to access the devices due to lawyer/client privacy issues.

What they did do was have Clinton and others lawyers glean through the information and hand over information pertinent to Clinton's email server ONLY. The scope of the FBI investigation didn't involve looking for anything else.

And now we are getting some of the rest of the story.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/fbi-hillary-clinton-devices-230592


----------



## sags

Hillary Clinton says she doesn't know what is contained in the emails on Anthony Weiner's laptop.

Huma Abedin says she doesn't know either and never used Weiner's laptop.

The one who hasn't said anything about the emails yet is Anthony Weiner,.... and it was his laptop.


----------



## agent99

Rusty O'Toole said:


> On the other hand if they were stored in *a file marked 'Life Insurance'* that suggests someone saved them deliberately.


This keeps getting repeated as though it was true. If anyone believes it is, please provide a reliable source.


----------



## mrPPincer

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Denninger's tea party connection may be of interest. Everybody forgets the "tea party" started when President Bush and Congress approved a $700 billion dollar bailout for the banks in 2007. It was reported that letters phone calls and emails ran from 100:1 to 300:1 against. One congressman reported his constituents were evenly divided, half said "NO" and the other half said "HELL NO". They voted for it anyway, and it took less than 24 hours.
> 
> This is when people began mailing in tea bags in reference to the Boston Tea Party with the motto "taxation without representation is tyranny".
> 
> Denninger got involved about that time organizing meetings in Florida. The idea was to organize protests, and warn politicians that they could work against their re election if they refused to listen to the desires of the public.
> 
> It wasn't long before the Tea Party movement was highjacked by a bunch of professional politicians who turned it away from financial matters and turned their attention to a lot of tired old tropes like gay marriage, abortion, all kinds of issues that didn't matter a damn and hadn't for 20 years. Then the mocking and laughing started.
> 
> About this time Denninger and the other original members figured out they had been had and dropped the whole thing.
> 
> After that he did his blog on financial and political matters, and concentrated most of his time on fitness, weight loss, running marathons and other outdoor pursuits.
> 
> He is still an opinionated old crank but he backs his opinions up with facts and figures. I don't always agree with him but I find his analyses original and thought provoking.


^Something from the right that isn't "no I'm not you are" insult-filled ****-posts.
I didn't know anything about the origins of the tea party, but if the above is accurate, I find it very interesting.
___



> As for Putin backing Trump, why would he bother when you can buy the Clintons for a few million in speaking fees and charitable contributions?


^This one looks like more of the same blind partisan BS that the other clowns are posting.

Donations to a registered non-profit charity with open books, (unlike Trump's 'Foundation', which, being not a charity, but a slush fund, has closed books), do not buy the Clintons; what they do buy is innoculations for children worldwide, they buy a fight against AIDS, they buy a world where more women and girls can actually go to school, etc etc.

How in the flying hell is that a bad thing?? <rhetorical; it's not a bad thing, the right* is obviously doing it's usual preemptive attack strategy; they know the Trump Foundation is dirty, so they go after the pristine Clinton Foundation preemptively, in lieu of any actual substantive policy; it's a smokescreen.

*(by the right, I mean the right in the USA in it's current iteration; with luck they will learn from this and drop the hate-****-post divisive strategy, and actually come up with fiscal policy that isn't the old worn out trickle-down that has already brought so many good nations to their knees, leaving the left/centre to fix everything).


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"^Something from the right that isn't "no I'm not you are" insult-filled ****-posts.
I didn't know anything about the origins of the tea party, but if the above is accurate, I find it very interesting."

It's accurate. You could go to The Market Ticker, go back to the first posts he wrote in 2007 and early 2008 and read it for yourself. That is where I got it.

They highjacked and trivialized the Occupy Wall Street groups the same way. Have seen similar tactics used to destroy the effectiveness of anti establishment web sites too.

The business of Putin buying the Clintons with speaking fees and charity contributions was more of a wisecrack. Kind of an absurd idea, as absurd as Putin trying to throw the election in Trump's favor. I know the left likes to pretend Trump and Putin are buddies but just try to picture it. Trump and Putin palling around, drinking vodka, playing golf at Mar A Lago. No I can't see it either. It's actually kind of funny. Trump makes a few complimentary remarks about the leader of one of the most important countries in the world, and that makes him some kind of monster. He makes derogatory remarks about people who attack him and that makes him a monster too. The guy can't win.

From the front page of today's New York Times: Donald Trump took a legal tax deduction 25 years ago.

Actual headline: " In '90s crisis, Trump used a tax tactic now banned"

I'm waiting for them to take a picture of him eating ham and eggs, and tagging it "Trump devours the unborn" 

-_-


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

How do you delete a post?


----------



## mordko

Trump didn't make complimentary remarks about a country. He made complimentary remarks about the dictator who routinely murders opposition, journalists and invades neighbouring countries. Same one who has been threatening us with nuclear weapons almost daily for the last few months. Trump also encouraged Russian interference in the elections and espionage against the US. 

Trumps campaign is headed by a guy who is linked to Putins regime. And anyone watching Russian TV knows exactly which side Putin is cheering for.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

So if we are lucky Hillary will win and teach him a lesson, with atomic bombs if necessary?


----------



## mrPPincer

Rusty O'Toole said:


> So if we are lucky Hillary will win and teach him a lesson, with atomic bombs if necessary?


Better than Trump dropping a nuke over a squabble started by some dudes in a boat that gave the US navy the finger and yelled some insults, and that's how it will go with a 70yr/old with the temperament and intellect of a surly spoiled 3yr/old.


----------



## mrPPincer

Rusty O'Toole said:


> How do you delete a post?


Seems like they may have removed that option very recently, like today.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Seriously? Do you guys really believe that?


----------



## mordko

That Trump is illogical, unstable, petty and vengeful? Sure, that's the exact impression he is projecting.


----------



## mrPPincer

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Seriously? Do you guys really believe that?


I believe the petulance and ego and ignorance of that man/child would move the dial way over into the 'end of humanity' zone if he had access to the codes, yeah.

Looking at the guy, he'd w/o a doubt get into some sh!t he couldn't finish without losing face, and then go over the edge when it all inevitably goes south.


----------



## Argonaut

I think it's interesting what the FBI is doing now. They're releasing a bunch of documentation, through Twitter no less (https://twitter.com/FBIRecordsVault). With a bunch of redacted stuff on the Clintons, including Bill Clinton selling a presidential pardon to Marc Rich. Reading between the lines, they're basically saying, the Clintons are above the law and will avoid prosecution.. but it's up to the American people to decide their fate on election day.


----------



## mordko

^ it's not a referendum on Bill or even Hillary. It's a choice between the two people, one of whom is beyond contempt and outright dangerous and the other is dodgy and risky.


----------



## wraphter

mrPPincer said:


> Donations to a registered non-profit charity with open books, (unlike Trump's 'Foundation', which, being not a charity, but a slush fund, has closed books), do not buy the Clintons; what they do buy is innoculations for children worldwide, they buy a fight against AIDS, they buy a world where more women and girls can actually go to school, etc etc.


Bob Woodward said the Clinton Foundation is corrupt.



> WikiLeaks has published hacked emails from Clinton campaign Chairman John Podesta's account that showed donors would give to the foundation expecting to receive access to the Clintons in exchange. During the third presidential debate, Fox news's Chris Wallace, who served as moderator, had asked Clinton about the conflict of interest. The Democratic nominee deflected by saying, "We at the Clinton Foundation spend 90%, 90%, of all the money that is donated on behalf of programs for people around the world and in our own country. I’m very proud of that. We have the highest rating from the watchdogs that follow foundations. And I would be happy to compare what we do with the Trump Foundation which took money from other people and bought a six-foot portrait of Donald. I mean, who does that?" (See also, Tale of Two Charities: Trump's Helps Trump, the Clintons' Is the Real Deal.)
> 
> On Sunday, when Wallace asked Woodward if voters are right to be troubled by the Wikileaks revelations, Woodward said, *"Yes. It's corrupt, it's a scandal and she didn't answer your question at all and she turned to embrace the good work that the Clinton foundation has done, and she has a case there. But the mixing of the speech fees, the Clinton foundation and actions by The State Department, which she ran, are all intertwined. It's corrupt. You can't just say it's unsavoury."*



There was/is an FBI investigation of the Clinton Foundation.It has met a lot of resistance from DOJ.



> *Early this year, four FBI field offices—New York, Los Angeles, Washington and Little Rock, Ark.—were collecting information about the Clinton Foundation to see if there was evidence of financial crimes or influence-peddling, according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> Los Angeles agents had picked up information about the Clinton Foundation from an unrelated public-corruption case and had issued some subpoenas for bank records related to the foundation, these people said.
> 
> The Washington field office was probing financial relationships involving Mr. McAuliffe before he became a Clinton Foundation board member, these people said. Mr. McAuliffe has denied any wrongdoing, and his lawyer has said the probe is focused on whether he failed to register as an agent of a foreign entity.*
> 
> Clinton Foundation officials have long denied any wrongdoing, saying it is a well-run charity that has done immense good.
> 
> The FBI field office in New York had done the most work on the Clinton Foundation case and received help from the FBI field office in Little Rock, the people familiar with the matter said.
> 
> *In February, FBI officials made a presentation to the Justice Department, according to these people. By all accounts, the meeting didn’t go well.
> 
> Some said that is because the FBI didn’t present compelling evidence to justify more aggressive pursuit of the Clinton Foundation, and that the career anticorruption prosecutors in the room simply believed it wasn’t a very strong case. Others said that from the start, the Justice Department officials were stern, icy and dismissive of the case.*
> 
> “That was one of the weirdest meetings I’ve ever been to,” one participant told others afterward, according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> Anticorruption prosecutors at the Justice Department told the FBI at the meeting they wouldn’t authorize more aggressive investigative techniques, such as subpoenas, formal witness interviews, or grand-jury activity. But the FBI officials believed they were well within their authority to pursue the leads and methods already under way, these people said.
> 
> About a week after Mr. Comey’s July announcement that he was recommending against any prosecution in the Clinton email case, the FBI sought to refocus the Clinton Foundation probe, with Mr. McCabe deciding the FBI’s New York office would take the lead, with assistance from Little Rock.
> 
> ...........
> 
> According to a person familiar with the probes, on Aug. 12, a senior Justice Department official called Mr. McCabe to voice his displeasure at finding that New York FBI agents were still openly pursuing the Clinton Foundation probe during the election season. Mr. McCabe said agents still had the authority to pursue the issue as long as they didn’t use overt methods requiring Justice Department approvals.
> 
> “Are you telling me that I need to shut down a validly predicated investigation?” Mr. McCabe asked, according to people familiar with the conversation. After a pause, the official replied, “Of course not,” these people said.
> 
> For Mr. McCabe’s defenders, the exchange showed how he was stuck between an FBI office eager to pour more resources into a case and Justice Department prosecutors who didn’t think much of the case, one person said. Those people said that following the call, Mr. McCabe reiterated past instructions to FBI agents that they were to keep pursuing the work within the authority they had.
> 
> ...........
> For agents who already felt uneasy about FBI leadership’s handling of the Clinton Foundation case, the moment only deepened their concerns, these people said. For those who felt the probe hadn’t yet found significant evidence of criminal conduct, the leadership’s approach was the right response.
> 
> In September, agents on the foundation case asked to see the emails contained on nongovernment laptops that had been searched as part of the Clinton email case, but that request was rejected by prosecutors at the Eastern District of New York,
> 
> ............



Donations to Foundation Vexed Hillary Clinton’s Aides, Emails Show



> In the years before Hillary Clinton announced she would run again for president, her top aides expressed profound concerns in internal emails about how foreign donations to the Clinton Foundation and Bill Clinton’s own moneymaking ventures would affect Mrs. Clinton’s political future.
> 
> The emails, obtained by hackers and being gradually released by WikiLeaks this month, also are revealing how efforts to minimize potential conflicts at the foundation led to power struggles and infighting among aides and Mrs. Clinton’s family.
> 
> One top aide to Mr. Clinton, Douglas J. Band, noted in an email that the former president had received personal income from some foundation donors and “gets many expensive gifts from them.”
> 
> .........
> *Hillary Clinton, another email showed, had promised to attend a Clinton Foundation gathering in Morocco at the behest of its king, who had pledged $12 million to the charity. Her advisers worried that would look unseemly just as she was beginning her presidential campaign in earnest.
> 
> “She created this mess and she knows it,” a close aide, Huma Abedin, wrote of Mrs. Clinton in a January 2015 email.*
> 
> ..........
> 
> Mr. Band also noted how some of those donors he had cultivated were paying Mr. Clinton privately to make speeches or to do other work. *One such donor, Laureate International Universities, a for-profit education company based in Baltimore, was paying Mr. Clinton $3.5 million annually “to provide advice” and serve as its honorary chairman, Mr. Band wrote.*
> 
> *Some interviewees told the audit team that the donors “may have an expectation of quid pro quo benefits in return for gift.” The audit suggested the foundation “ensure that all donors are properly vetted and that no inappropriate quid pro quos are offered to donors in return for contributions.”*
> 
> ............
> 
> The next year, when Mrs. Clinton was on the verge of declaring her candidacy, Cheryl D. Mills, a lawyer and top aide, said she discussed with Mrs. Clinton various “steps” to take to adjust her relationship with the foundation, including her resignation from the foundation’s board.
> 
> *By fall 2015, Mrs. Clinton’s aides had fine-tuned her response to questions about foreign donors. “As President, I won’t permit any conflicts between my work for the American people and the Foundation’s good work,” aides advised Mrs. Clinton to say in a coming debate.*


Ka-ching----another million rolls in.

Clinton Inc., a real money maker selling access perhaps.

Clintons worth over $100 million.

Bill received $500,000 for a speech in Moscow while the takeover of Uranium One was being discussed and approved by
US govt.

Nothing to see here folks,move on now.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Olivaw the Founding Fathers put into the Constitution, that a candidate for President had to be a natural born American citizen or naturalized before 1789. Every single candidate for more than 200 years complied with the law and nobody thought anything about it. Then all of a sudden in 2008 it became 'rayciss'? Give me a break.


Fair enough Rusty, but nobody ever questioned amy previous presidents birth so vehemently. The State of Hawai certified that Obama was a natural born citizen. He was legally certified to be on the ballot in every state. that should have been the end of it.

That was just part of my larger message that the Republicans were never going to give Hillary a chance. If it wasn't the email server it would be something else. 33 Benghazi hearings without a single finding of wrongdoing was enough to convince me that it was more about politics than legality. It's a win at all costs mentality that is harmful to America.

I've supported R and D candidates in the past. This year I see it as no contest.


----------



## Nelley

Argonaut said:


> I think it's interesting what the FBI is doing now. They're releasing a bunch of documentation, through Twitter no less (https://twitter.com/FBIRecordsVault). With a bunch of redacted stuff on the Clintons, including Bill Clinton selling a presidential pardon to Marc Rich. Reading between the lines, they're basically saying, the Clintons are above the law and will avoid prosecution.. but it's up to the American people to decide their fate on election day.


It certainly appears that the FBI rank and file are leading somewhat of a mutiny against Crooked Hillary, Comey, Obama and Loretta Lynch. IMO Comey didn't want to do any of this but he has lost control of the people who haven't sold out yet.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Fair enough Rusty, but nobody ever questioned amy previous presidents birth so vehemently. The State of Hawai certified that Obama was a natural born citizen. He was legally certified to be on the ballot in every state. that should have been the end of it.
> 
> That was just part of my larger message that the Republicans were never going to give Hillary a chance. If it wasn't the email server it would be something else. 33 Benghazi hearings without a single finding of wrongdoing was enough to convince me that it was more about politics than legality. It's a win at all costs mentality that is harmful to America.
> 
> I've supported R and D candidates in the past. This year I see it as no contest.


That is what they said about Charlie Manson-if it wasn't the Hollywood Hills killings they would pin something else on the guy.


----------



## mrPPincer

Wraphter, donations to an open-book registered charity doing great work across the planet, awesome, so some questionable characters chipped in, still awesome.
Would march of dimes or red cross not accept money from a meth-head drug dealer? OFC not.

As to the money for speeches, that's a completely different issue.
So when the Clintons do it it's bad? How about when all of the republican ex-presidents do it, is that bad too then?

That Uranium One thing was debunked miles upthread, I'm not scrolling up for you, I gotta work in the morning, gn


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> Fair enough Rusty, but nobody ever questioned amy previous presidents birth so vehemently. The State of Hawai certified that Obama was a natural born citizen. He was legally certified to be on the ballot in every state. that should have been the end of it.
> 
> That was just part of my larger message that the Republicans were never going to give Hillary a chance. If it wasn't the email server it would be something else. 33 Benghazi hearings without a single finding of wrongdoing was enough to convince me that it was more about politics than legality. It's a win at all costs mentality that is harmful to America.
> 
> I've supported R and D candidates in the past. This year I see it as no contest.


When and how did the State of Hawaii certify that? There were questions raised, and those who raised them dismissed as nuts and racists. I recall statements made by people who had hearsay evidence at best, and 2 photo shopped birth certificates. But no proof one way or the other.

If nobody ever questioned any previous candidate it was either because they were obviously American born and no one ever doubted it, or they provided proof. Obama could have ended the whole thing at any time by showing his birth certificate or passport. He never did. I think he was trolling the Republicans.


----------



## new dog

So in summary everything is Comey's fault for telling Congress he has reopened the investigation. Normally it would be Putin's fault but today it makes more sense for the press to geo after Comey. I think vote rigging will be needed here to make sure the right hand picked candidate wins.

I have heard the Gem voting system can be rigged to give the outcome you want and election officials wouldn't even notice it. It is done using fraction voting. Has anybody else heard of this and it would be guaranteed to be used to get Hillary elected if possible.

http://blackboxvoting.org/fraction-magic-1/

I should add is Soros hand in this as suggested.

http://truthfeed.com/breaking-petit...oros-owned-voting-machines-be-replaced/31561/


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The New York police arrested Weiner, they notified the FBI, the FBI investigated, got a warrant to search the computer and found evidence connecting the contents of the computer to Clinton through Abedin. They notified Congress as they are supposed to. I don't think Comey had much choice unless he wanted to get in trouble himself for concealing evidence.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> When and how did the State of Hawaii certify that? There were questions raised, and those who raised them dismissed as nuts and racists. I recall statements made by people who had hearsay evidence at best, and 2 photo shopped birth certificates. But no proof one way or the other.
> 
> If nobody ever questioned any previous candidate it was either because they were obviously American born and no one ever doubted it, or they provided proof. Obama could have ended the whole thing at any time by showing his birth certificate or passport. He never did. I think he was trolling the Republicans.


Here you go. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories



> On June 12, 2008, Obama's campaign responded to the [birther] rumors by posting an image of Obama's birth certificate on the "Fight The Smears" website.[39][40]
> 
> The image is a scan of a laser-printed document obtained from and certified by the Hawaii Department of Health on June 6, 2007. It is a "Certification of Live Birth", sometimes referred to as a short form birth certificate, and contains less information than the longer "Certificate of Live Birth", which Hawaii no longer issues.[41][42] Asked about this, Hawaiian Department of Health spokeswoman Janice Okubo explained that Hawaii stopped issuing the longer "Certificate" in 2001 when their birth records were "put into electronic files for consistent reporting", and therefore Hawaii "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate".[43] A "record of live birth", partially handwritten and partially typed, was created and submitted in 1961 when Obama was born, and is "located in a bound volume in a file cabinet on the first floor of the state Department of Health". The document was used to create the state's electronic records, and has been examined by state officials multiple times since the controversy began.[42]


and then there's this ....


----------



## olivaw

*Sean Hannity falls for alt-right conspiracy theory.*

More on conspiracy theories ...... 

*Fake story about Obamas, Hillary Clinton ensnares Sean Hannity*



> Radio host Sean Hannity on Tuesday embraced a piece of fake news about President Obama deleting endorsements of Hillary Clinton from his Twitter account.
> 
> Hannity used the made-up news to claim that President Obama's legacy might be "jail."
> 
> The deleted-tweets claim could have been disproven by a quick Twitter search.
> 
> Later in the day, Hannity tweeted a correction and apologized.


http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/01/med...le-obama-hillary-clinton-fake-news/index.html


----------



## andrewf

Deleting tweets is a criminal offense now?


----------



## wraphter

mrPPincer said:


> As to the money for speeches, that's a completely different issue.
> So when the Clintons do it it's bad? How about when all of the republican ex-presidents do it, is that bad too then?
> 
> That Uranium One thing was debunked miles upthread, I'm not scrolling up for you, I gotta work in the morning, gn



mrPPincer,

Well I wouldn't want to keep you from your work,sir, so I will do the digging to show you that Bill Clinton received $500,000
for a speech in Moscow from a Russian bank promoting Uranium One stock while Hillary was Secretary of State. 

From Politifact



> Did foreign interests curry favor with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton by paying huge speaking fees to her husband?
> 
> That’s the question raised in the forthcoming book Clinton Cash by author and political consultant Peter Schweizer. On the Sunday shows, Schweizer said that while his research uncovered no proof of a quid pro quo between foreign interests and the 2016 Democratic frontrunner, the evidence does suggest a troubling trend.
> 
> "You have an interesting point that I want to put up on the screen that seems to demonstrate exactly the point you're making," Wallace said. "Between 2001 and 2012, Bill Clinton made 13 speeches, 13, for which he was paid $500,000 or more. Eleven of those 13 speeches were at least eight years after he left the presidency while his wife was secretary of state."
> 
> Schweizer responded, noting that Bill Clinton’s speaking fees "dramatically" went up when Hillary Clinton, now a presidential candidate, took office in 2009.
> 
> ...........
> 
> Here’s a list of all the speeches for which Clinton received a fee of $500,000 or higher, including the year, location, host and actual fee:
> 
> 2003 -- Japan, $500,000 Sakura Asset Management (Japanese finance corporation) (A note: This speech was canceled, but the fee went to Clinton’s presidential library foundation);
> 
> 2008 -- California, $500,000, Power Within (life coach Anthony Robbins’ brand);
> 
> *2010 -- Russia, $500,000, Renaissance Capital (Russian finance corporation);*
> 
> 2010-- United Arab Emirates, $500,000, Novo Nordisk (Danish pharmaceutical company);
> 
> 2011 -- Nigeria, $700,000, THISDAY (newspaper);
> 
> 2011 -- Austria, $500,000, Center for Global Dialogue and Cooperation (Austrian nongovernmental organization);
> 
> 2011 -- Netherlands, $600,000, Achmea (Dutch finance corporation);
> 
> 2011 -- China, $550,000, Huatuo CEO Forum (business conference);
> 
> 2011 -- United Arab Emirates, $500,000, Abu Dhabi Global Environmental Data Initiative (international environmental information organization);
> 
> 2011 -- Hong Kong, $750,000, Ericsson (Swedish multinational communications technology company);
> 
> 2012 -- Nigeria, $700,000, THISDAY (newspaper);
> 
> 2012 -- Austria, $500,000, Center for Global Dialogue and Cooperation (Austrian nongovernmental organization);
> 
> 2012 -- Italy, $500,000, Technogym (fitness equipment manufacturer).[/b]
> 
> ..............
> 
> *Additionally, "shortly after the Russians announced their intention to acquire a majority stake in Uranium One, Mr. Clinton received $500,000 for a Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock."*
> 
> ABC also examined Clinton’s speaking records and found many instances in which he took in money from groups with pending interests at the State Department. State Department ethics officials had to sign off on these speaking engagements, but rarely did they say Clinton could not accept payment for a particular speech.
> 
> Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign has staunchly denied the implication that there was some sort of quid pro quo for entities that contributed to the Clintons’ wealth, arguing that Schweizer’s book does not have firm evidence of any such deal making.
> 
> ...........
> 
> Schweizer said, "Of the 13 (Bill) Clinton speeches that fetched $500,000 or more, only two occurred during the years his wife was not secretary of state."
> 
> We're not checking Schweizer's suggestion that the increased speaking fees were part of a plan to curry favor in his wife's State Department. But on the specific numbers, Schweitzer is correct.
> 
> Hillary Clinton’s financial disclosure forms from 2001 through the end of 2012 confirm Schweizer’s claim. We rate it True.


So Bill Clinton received $500,000 from a Russian bank with ties to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock,while she was Secretary of State.
It's true.

Your claim has been debunked mrPPincer.

You're welcome.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> That was just part of my larger message that the Republicans were never going to give Hillary a chance. If it wasn't the email server it would be something else.


Nonsense.Talk about a conspiracy theory.' I am innocent;the world is to blame'.Externalize the blame. The server was an unforced error which says a lot about her personality. She did it to herself because she has an unconscious need to fail. She is to blame and she is responsible for this self-inflicted wound. She is her own worst enemy.


----------



## carverman

Hilliary Clinton and her foundation are corrupt. No other president or candidate seeking presidential election in recent memory is as corrupted as her, except maybe Richard Nixon.

Something is definitely wrong with the US , to even consider her for president until all these scandals are straightened out by the FBI. Maybe she could even go to jail if a special prosecution team is set up after the FBI finishes their investigation
which will (no doubt) be after the election on Nov 8.



> When Hillary Clinton agreed to be Secretary of State during President Obama's first term, s*he promised her distance from the Clinton Foundation.* The foundation also agreed to limit foreign donations.





> Both agreements were for good reasons. Foreign officials and governments were big donors to the Clintons' family foundation, and there were *concerns in the Obama administration about conflicts of interest between the foundation and Hillary Clinton's work at Secretary of State.*


Hmmm?? something is rotten in the Secretary of state ("of Denmark")
For a "few million more" sez Hilliary, and "I can get you".... to the Russian oligarches..



> But over the past year, evidence has emerged that both Clinton and the foundation failed to live up to those promises. Clinton and her top officials continued to have a cozy relationship with the foundation throughout her tenure at State, and *evidence strongly suggest that Clinton was granting access and favors to major Clinton Foundation donors*.



Say it isn't true Hillary....cozy relationship with your "foundation", countng your "hard earned cash",not paying any taxes on the "foundation donations",
deleting emails about all the email contacts with the contributors to your "foundation"...where is it ? in a Swiss bank account or somewhere in the Cayman Islands?



> In addition, the Clinton Foundation accepted millions of donations from foreign governments while Hillary was at State, i*ncluding one that violated an ethics agreement it had with the Obama administration*.


"Clinton Cash"..the dollar is more important to Hilliary than her integrity as Secretary of State or a future president.



> The story came to light after the release of a groundbreaking book by Peter Schweizer — called "Clinton Cash" — which uncovered a serious of *State Department decisions that appeared to favor big Clinton Foundation donors.*


*
*

Hillary continues:
"You scratch my back by depositing a few US dollars in my account(s) that I don't pay any tax on, and IRS doesn't know what is going on...
and I'll "scratch" yours..ok?"




> *Emails that emerged more recently made it clear that donors received special access and attention from Clinton and her top aides*. An AP story found that more than half the private visitors Clinton received at State were donors to her family foundation.


----------



## bass player

^^

But...but...Trump said something nasty!! :hororr:


----------



## Eclectic12

olivaw said:


> Rusty O'Toole said:
> 
> 
> 
> Olivaw the Founding Fathers put into the Constitution, that a candidate for President had to be a natural born American citizen or naturalized before 1789. Every single candidate for more than 200 years complied with the law and nobody thought anything about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough Rusty ...
Click to expand...

Is it?

I can recall the academic being interviewed when Trump was demanding the birth certificate saying at least three were not born in the US who had held the presidency.

Supposedly there's at least seven including tidbits like:
Martin Van Buren, whose real name was Maarten van Buren, was actually born in the Netherlands and could speak only Dutch until he was six.
James Garfield was born Joanes Gliszinski near Lodz, Poland and immigrated to America with his family at age 2. 
Washington recounts with much fondness his idyllic boyhood in ‘Merry old England.’, in a rare 1760 letter. 


https://forsythstories.com/2011/11/...t-alone-7-other-u-s-presidents-born-overseas/


That's igoring VP controversies (Charles Evans Hughs was alledged to have been born in Canada where a non-US citizen father would make him a non-US citizen), Barry Goldwater, George Romney, Ted Cruz and John McCain to name a few.


"Evey single candidate complied in 200 years" seems a stretch with all the controversies.



Cheers


*PS*

The type of cherry tree that Washington is supposed to have been so honest about chopping is alleged to be native to England where it wasn't transported to the New World until two decades after Washington's death.


----------



## Nelley

If Crooked Hillary wins this thing it will be interesting-there has never been a newly elected POTUS with even close to this level of disgust by the general public. Even her strongest supporters accept that she is a whore to any big money interest, foreign, domestic, criminal or not.


----------



## new dog

I think this may be the time to put your fingers in your ears and sing la, la, la, if you are a Hillary supporter. 

Of course some here won't be able to do this and continue to defend the undependable and continue to make it Trump, Putin, Comey, right wing publication, Mickey Mouse or who ever they can think of as being at fault. As I said before vote rigging using fractional voting may be the answer to a Clinton victory. What it means is some votes get counted as fractions and other votes would be counted as one in these Gem machines and you can guess Trump leaning voters would be getting the fraction votes.


----------



## carverman

Nelley said:


> If Crooked Hillary wins this thing it will be interesting-there has never been a newly elected POTUS with even close to this level of disgust by the general public.
> 
> 
> 
> Even her strongest supporters accept that she is a whore to any big money interest, foreign, domestic, criminal or not.
Click to expand...

So IF she gets elected by all sorts of election tricks, do you think she will... all of a sudden become only interested in the good ole USA and not a be a "junkie"to collecting even more donated cash to her "Clinton Foundation?"...."one for you..and two for me"
Lots of votes can be gotten in the swing states on selecting the right campaign slogan.
If she has already broken the rules as Sec of State, what's to prevent her from continuing the way she has up to now?
Impeachment?


Trump's campaign slogan is: "Make America Great Again!" 

What is her current election slogan? 
"Hillary For America" ***
"Stronger Together" 

***


> What does it mean: Hilary is pro-America, and wants to do things on its behalf.


----------



## sags

What is the difference between raising money by giving speeches and Super Pacs contributing the money ?

Are people naive enough to believe that one expects "quid pro quo" and the other doesn't.

"Pay to play" is the American way. How many private meetings with powerful politicians in either party do you think Joe the Plumber has ?

The Koch brothers, big oil companies and banks, wealthy people didn't get rich by giving their money away.

Everyone with a lot of money has a personal agenda to support that will benefit them.

Isn't it odd that the same people who complain about "pay to play" among millionaires and billionaires, rush to defend the 1% against the demonstrations of the 99% like the Occupy movement or the Bernie Sanders campaign.

Trump too.........just look at his tax reforms. Lower taxes for corporations and wealthy. He hasn't even been paying taxes but is concerned that he may have to in the future with his 900 million dollar tax credit running out.

Higher military spending from taxes he doesn't pay. What a joke.

The righteous indignation of some is laughable.


----------



## sags

Donald Trump lacks any experience or knowledge of foreign affairs, and has the wrong temperament to be in command of the US military.

Trump has said he would blow Iranian ships out of the water, wouldn't mind if other countries got nuclear weapons, and would disband NATO.

Trump would be extremely dangerous as the most powerful person on the earth.

All other matters pale by comparison.


----------



## sags

Since people are talking about spouses........ie Bill Clinton, how about we talk about the spouse of Trump campaign chief Kellyanne Conway.

Her husband is a top level corporate lawyer who was retained by the tobacco industry to defend them against lawsuits.

He was also heavily involved in the impeachment of Bill Clinton and the failed Paula Jones lawsuit.

It was also suspected he was secretly leaking information to Matt Drudge of the Drudge Report.

To Republicans, getting paid to give speeches is bad. Defending the tobacco industry and attacking someone's character is good.

The level of Republican hypocrisy is off the charts.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Her husband is a top level corporate lawyer who was retained by the tobacco industry to defend them against lawsuits.
> 
> To Republicans, getting paid to give speeches is bad. Defending the tobacco industry is good.


Once again your outrage is selective. Hillary defended a child rapist using the defense that the 12-year old child had fantasies about older men. Just imagine if the souse of Kellyanne Conway did that?


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Once again your outrage is selective. Hillary defended a child rapist using the defense that the 12-year old child had fantasies about older men. Just imagine if the souse of Kellyanne Conway did that?


And they have Disgusting Hillary on tape laughing about the fact that she knew the animal was guilty all along.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Once again your outrage is selective. Hillary defended a child rapist using the defense that the 12-year old child had fantasies about older men. Just imagine if the souse of Kellyanne Conway did that?


Wrong......it has already been debunked.

The prosecution offered a plea deal because the forensic laboratory carelessly destroyed all the evidence. 

All Hillary Clinton had to do was show up in court, while her client accepted the plea bargain offer.

The case was never litigated and there was never a jury trial, so Hillary Clinton didn't use any defense strategy.

She didn't need one.


----------



## bass player

The Democrats and the media keep commenting on how the latest email revelations may "hurt" Hillary's campaign, but none of them care enough to question her total lack of ethics or the fact that she did something wrong. To them, the only thing that matters is that it hurts the campaign, not that she did something wrong.

The Democrats are morally corrupt. Power is all that matters.


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> And they have Disgusting Hillary on tape laughing about the fact that she knew the animal was guilty all along.


Clinton was laughing at the lab destroying the piece of material they had cut out that contained the evidence and sending the prosecutor the part that had no evidence on it.

Sometimes incompetence rises to a level of humor........like you know, the Keystone Cops.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> The Democrats and the media keep commenting on how the latest email revelations may "hurt" Hillary's campaign, but none of them care enough to question her total lack of ethics or the fact that she did something wrong. To them, the only thing that matters is that it hurts the campaign, not that she did something wrong.
> 
> The Democrats are morally corrupt. Power is all that matters.


I would agree that Hillary supporters are concerned the email question may "hurt" Hillary Clinton's campaign, because a Trump victory would be so devastating to the US and world. There are probably a lot of Republicans and Independents who join with Democrats in that concern as well.

The alternative offered instead of Clinton is an unthinkable outcome.


----------



## sags

A lot of people would rather vote for a cardboard cutout of George Washington than Donald Trump.

At least the cardboard cutout couldn't launch nuclear weapons.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> I would agree that Hillary supporters are concerned the email question may "hurt" Hillary Clinton's campaign, because a Trump victory would be so devastating to the US and world. There are probably a lot of Republicans and Independents who join with Democrats in that concern as well.
> 
> The alternative offered instead of Clinton is an unthinkable outcome.


It's only unthinkable for the Democrooks and their brainwashed supporters...which are dwindling by the hour. Everyone else wants to end the corruption.

DRAIN THE SWAMP!!


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> A lot of people would rather vote for a cardboard cutout of George Washington than Donald Trump.
> 
> At least the cardboard cutout couldn't launch nuclear weapons.


And yet Hillary is the only candidate who flies into uncontrollable rages.


----------



## Spudd

bass player said:


> And yet Hillary is the only candidate who flies into uncontrollable rages.


LOL!


----------



## sags

Drain the Swamp and replace it with what ?....people ask Donald Trump.

All shall be revealed in time......after I am elected,..... is his reply.

Donald Trump is the new Carnac the Magnificent, who shall forever more be known as....Donald the Magnificent.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> And they have Disgusting Hillary on tape laughing about the fact that she knew the animal was guilty all along.


Nelley thinks defense attorneys shouldn't do their jobs.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> What is the difference between raising money by giving speeches and Super Pacs contributing the money ?
> 
> .


Bill and Hillary and any other pol who gives a speech gets to keep the money they receive for the speech.It is not a campaign
donation.

Superpac donations go towards advocating a message in favour of the candidate by advertising I believe. They can't co-ordinate with the campaign or give money to the campaign.The money from the Superpac is not given to the candidate.

There is a separation between the superpac and the campaign.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Nelley thinks defense attorneys shouldn't do their jobs.


Nope...she simply questioned Hillary's decision to defend a child rapist. Your progressive ideology prevents you from understanding why some people might find that slightly more offensive than Trump's locker room talk.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> He was also heavily involved in the impeachment of Bill Clinton and the failed Paula Jones lawsuit.


Huh? The Paula Jones lawsuit was far from a failure.



> *The Supreme Court's ruling in Clinton v. Jones led to the District Court's hearing of Jones v. Clinton, which led to the Lewinsky scandal, when Clinton was asked under oath about other workplace relationships, which led to charges of perjury and obstruction of justice and the impeachment of Bill Clinton.*
> 
> ............
> 
> On April 12, 1999, Wright found Clinton in contempt of court for "intentionally false" testimony in Jones v. Clinton, fined him $90,000, and referred the case to the Arkansas Supreme Court's Committee on Professional Conduct, as Clinton still possessed a law license in Arkansas.[1]
> The Arkansas Supreme Court suspended Clinton's Arkansas law license in April 2000. On January 19, 2001, Clinton agreed to a five-year suspension and a $25,000 fine in order to avoid disbarment and to end the investigation of Independent Counsel Robert Ray (Starr's successor). On October 1, 2001, Clinton's U.S. Supreme Court law license was suspended, with 40 days to contest his disbarment. On November 9, 2001, the last day for Clinton to contest the disbarment, he opted to resign from the Supreme Court Bar, surrendering his license, rather than facing penalties related to disbarment.
> 
> ...........
> 
> "As a consequence of his conduct in the Jones v. Clinton civil suit and before the federal grand jury, President Clinton incurred significant administrative sanctions. The Independent Counsel considered seven non-criminal alternative sanctions that were imposed in making his decision to decline prosecution: (1) President Clinton’s admission of providing false testimony that was knowingly misleading, evasive, and prejudicial to the administration of justice before the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas; (2) his acknowledgement that his conduct violated the Rules of Professional Conduct of the Arkansas Supreme Court; *(3) the five-year suspension of his license to practice law and $25,000 fine imposed on him by the Circuit Court of Pulaski County, Arkansas; (4) the civil contempt penalty of more than $900,000 imposed on President Clinton by the federal court for violating its orders; (5) the payment of more than $850,000 in settlement to Paula Jones; (6) the express finding by the federal court that President Clinton had engaged in contemptuous conduct; and (7) the substantial public condemnation of President Clinton arising from his impeachment."*
> These seven sanctions, Ray reasoned, were "sufficient", and therefore he did not pursue further sanctions in a criminal proceeding.[2]


He had to pay $900,000 to the court and $850,000 to Paula Jones. He lost his law license and had to pay $25,000.
As a result of his testimony in the case, he was impeached. The Independent Counsel could have charged him criminally
but decided he had suffered enough.

By all indications, he did not learn his lesson and engaged in apparently sleazy conduct with the Clinton Foundation.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Clinton was laughing at the lab *destroying the piece of material they had cut out that contained the evidence and sending the prosecutor the part that had no evidence on it.*
> 
> Sometimes incompetence rises to a level of humor........like you know, the Keystone Cops.


Reminds me of the OJ trial and Johnny Cochrane's famous closing argument to the jury..
OJ tried to pull on a bloodied leather glove that didn't quite fit his hand after it had shrunk....that was the lack of evidence his defence team headed by Johnny Cochrane needed.

"if it doesn't fit, then you must acquit"


----------



## carverman

wraphter said:


> By all indications, he did not learn his lesson and engaged in apparently sleazy conduct with the Clinton Foundation.


They are both sleazy and deserve each other. Lots of deals done 'under the table" with those two and not just the Monica Lewinsky affair..
if you know what I mean. Both are morally corrupt.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> What is the difference between raising money by giving speeches


Raising money? What 729 paid speeches can get you, if you're a Clinton Sr. 
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/hillary-clinton-bill-clinton-paid-speeches/

Bill made $48 million in over 200 paid speeches just since Hillary was Secretary of State between 2009 and 2013. Of course all approved by the State Department.

He's "gotta pay the bills".

ps, in 15 years the Clintons made 237 million, including from books, and donated about 23 million. Not overly generous, but far more than Trump apparently.


----------



## agent99

Not sure what the problem is with the speeches. If someone wants to pay them that, so be it. And just because they are retired, it doesn't mean they don't have influence. And it doesn't have to be with a spouse or relative.

Even in Canada, an ex PM can get $50k. A hockey player like Gretzky double that. And if $500k for Clinton sounds a lot, apparently Reagan was paid $2million to make a few speeches in Japan.

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0610/canadian-celebs-outrageous-speaking-fees.aspx

http://people.com/archive/eight-day...2-million-now-thats-reaganomics-vol-32-no-19/

http://fortune.com/2015/06/11/politician-speaking-fees-speeches/



> Politico reported that former President George W. Bush makes between $100,000 and $175,000 for every speech he gives and that he has given at least 200 speeches since leaving office in 2009. A bit of simple math translates that activity into more than $30 million for the former president in speech fees alone. Compare that to the relatively paltry $400,000 a president makes a year while in office, and you can see why presidents look forward to their retirement.


----------



## olivaw

Survey sez ............


----------



## SMK

agent99 said:


> Not sure what the problem is with the speeches.


Not with all, but it's clear why some of them have been controversial. By "Sr.", I didn't mean retired, was just excluding Chelsea.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Eclectic12 said:


> Is it?
> 
> I can recall the academic being interviewed when Trump was demanding the birth certificate saying at least three were not born in the US who had held the presidency.
> 
> Supposedly there's at least seven including tidbits like:
> Martin Van Buren, whose real name was Maarten van Buren, was actually born in the Netherlands and could speak only Dutch until he was six.
> James Garfield was born Joanes Gliszinski near Lodz, Poland and immigrated to America with his family at age 2.
> Washington recounts with much fondness his idyllic boyhood in ‘Merry old England.’, in a rare 1760 letter.
> 
> 
> https://forsythstories.com/2011/11/...t-alone-7-other-u-s-presidents-born-overseas/
> 
> 
> That's igoring VP controversies (Charles Evans Hughs was alledged to have been born in Canada where a non-US citizen father would make him a non-US citizen), Barry Goldwater, George Romney, Ted Cruz and John McCain to name a few.
> 
> 
> "Evey single candidate complied in 200 years" seems a stretch with all the controversies.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> *PS*
> 
> The type of cherry tree that Washington is supposed to have been so honest about chopping is alleged to be native to England where it wasn't transported to the New World until two decades after Washington's death.


Washington was a naturalized citizen before 1789 and the cherry tree story was fabricated by Parson Weems. You've got me on the others. Except there are some web sites even I won't give credence to. Do you believe in this one or are you trolling?


----------



## humble_pie

.


wraphter may i ask whether your moral tut-tutting slops over onto 4-star general David Petraeus? 

in 2012 petraeus resigned as director of the CIA because he had been caught passing classified information to his mistress, an overly-adoring West Point graduate who was married to someone else, as was the general himself.

a fine scandal then bloomed. It occupied the nation, especially the part about the gf flying to middle eastern combat zones under the general's command, so that she could interview him in the field for a book on counter-terrorism which she was supposed to be writing.

when all the dust finally settled, general Petraeus ended up with a fat-paying job as director of Kohlman Kravis Roberts global institute. He's also been a paid lecturer at CUNY, the university of southern California & Harvard U.

petraeus kept his army pension & possibly also a CIA pension. He was given a two-year probationary sentence - lightest of the light - & fined a relatively small amount that ranges from $40,000 to $100,000, depending on which source one consults. Petraeus never faced as much as a hint of prison.

by last account, missus petraeus stayed by her man through thick & thin. I'm not sure what happened to the gf's hubby, he may be the only one to have fled the sinking ship of his marriage.

if general Petraeus' story is any kind of model, we should all aim to betray state secrets with beautiful enamorata. Not only could we hope to have fun with the basic action, we would also gain celebrity status. With that, we'd be able to command better consulting gigs, higher promotions & an aura of glamour that would be as radiant as a halo.

after all, the same thing happened to Bill.


.


----------



## olivaw

Today's Republican talking point (said in outraged, onerous voice) 

*If you vote for Clinton, we will have hearings and gridlock. And it's all her fault. *

By some odd coincidence, the last six years have been hearings and gridlock. The GOP blamed Obama.


----------



## TomB19

It's difficult to take away a positive message from this campaign.

Clinton has discussed policy and her view of the future but I've had to find it on YouTube.

Trump has discussed policy on a few occasions too but you wouldn't know it, by watching the news.

The news cycle is programmed by people who are petty, hateful, disinterested in facts, and unpatriotic. In other words: Nelley like. American news is an embarrassment. When big interests took over the new cycle, it was a huge step back for democracy in the United States.

Canada is on a nearly identical trajectory.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

If it bleeds it leads. Mainstream news stopped being about informing the public a long time ago. Now it is a kind of reality show using sensation to get ratings. That's why less than 20% of Americans trust the media, and most people get their news off the net.


----------



## olivaw

The net is the problem. 

Traditional media continues to lose market share to Internet media - much of which specialize in fake or exaggerated stories. Budgets in newsrooms have been slashed so severely that Woodward and Bernstein style investigative journalism is all but forgotten. For every serious news story, there are ten click baits. 

It's us too. People no longer have the patience to wade through a detailed policy discussion. It's far less work to watch a video about Bill Clinton's illegitimate love child or Donald Trump's affair with Anthony Weiner.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> It's difficult to take away a positive message from this campaign.
> 
> Clinton has discussed policy and her view of the future but I've had to find it on YouTube.
> 
> Trump has discussed policy on a few occasions too but you wouldn't know it, by watching the news.
> 
> The news cycle is programmed by people who are petty, hateful, disinterested in facts, and unpatriotic. In other words: Nelley like. American news is an embarrassment. When big interests took over the new cycle, it was a huge step back for democracy in the United States.
> 
> Canada is on a nearly identical trajectory.


Unpatriotic? No way-make me ruler of this fair land and you and your cronies would be sent to the gallows for treason.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The net is the problem.
> 
> Traditional media continues to lose market share to Internet media - much of which specialize in fake or exaggerated stories. Budgets in newsrooms been slashed so severely that Woodward and Bernstein style investigative journalism is all but forgotten. For every serious news story, there are ten click baits.
> 
> It's us too. People no longer have the patience to wade through a detailed policy discussion. It's far less work to watch a video about Bill Clinton's illegitimate love child or Donald Trump's affair with Anthony Weiner.


The net is a major problem for Crooked Hillary and her zombies-for sure.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Unpatriotic? No way-make me ruler of this fair land and you and your cronies would be sent to the gallows for treason.


You are confusing tyranny for patriotism.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> The net is the problem.
> 
> Traditional media continues to lose market share to Internet media - much of which specialize in fake or exaggerated stories. Budgets in newsrooms been slashed so severely that Woodward and Bernstein style investigative journalism is all but forgotten. For every serious news story, there are ten click baits.
> 
> It's us too. People no longer have the patience to wade through a detailed policy discussion. It's far less work to watch a video about Bill Clinton's illegitimate love child or Donald Trump's affair with Anthony Weiner.


Crooked Hillary has a very detailed policy-you wanna play? Then you gotta pay big Momma first.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> You are confusing tyranny for patriotism.


You are just confused-your shrink told you to take the yellow pills on Wed not the green pills-you take those on Fri.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Crooked Hillary has a very detailed policy-you wanna play? Then you gotta pay big Momma first.


You are confusing engaging discussion with moronic drivel.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> You are confusing engaging discussion with moronic drivel.


Yup-what is the latest total? 200 million dollars of moronic drivel for the Clinton Crime Family.


----------



## Nelley

This has got to be the worst 6 months any leading POTUS candidate has ever had-just brutal. Being thrown into that van like a sack of potatoes, then the return of Comey and Weiner-what a horror movie.


----------



## olivaw

*Amid Email Focus, Obama Says He Has 'Absolute Confidence' In Clinton's Integrity*



> Speaking to Now This News, Obama made his first public statements about the FBI's renewed focus on evidence possibly tied to Clinton's private State Department email server.
> 
> "I know her; I trust her," Obama said. "And you know, I wouldn't be supporting her if I didn't have absolute confidence in her integrity and her interest in making sure that young people have a better future."


----------



## Eclectic12

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Washington was a naturalized citizen before 1789 and the cherry tree story was fabricated by Parson Weems. You've got me on the others. Except there are some web sites even I won't give credence to. Do you believe in this one or are you trolling?



How about a law school blog?
http://law.marquette.edu/facultyblo...and-the-birthers-1880’s-style/comment-page-1/

Or an 1884 published book?


> How a Subject of the British Empire Became President of the United States


https://www.scribd.com/doc/18450082...Subject-Became-President-of-the-United-States

Chicago Legal News ...
https://www.scribd.com/document/29744612/Breckinridge-Long-A-Natural-Born-Citizen-Within

How about the Nashua Telegraph newspaper in 1976 saying under a strict interpretation of the constitution, Senator Lowel Weicker under consideration to be Ford's running mate would not be eligible to president despite two past presidential candidates who ran also being born out of the US?
https://news.google.com/newspapers?...2448134&dq=weicker+natural-born-citizen&hl=en

Or maybe the University of California, Davis School of Law that says McCain can't be allowed as president.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=1157621


It seems trying to figure out what "natural born citizen" means and who it applies to has been a long standing controversy instead of a recent issue in the last twelve years or so.



Cheers


----------



## olivaw

^The legal definition of "natural born citizen" was not challenged by birthers. Their claim was that Barack Obama was not born in the United States - period. It was a debunked conspiracy theory and its popularity speaks to the gullibility of a large portion of the population. It would be interesting to do a poll of Trump voters to see how many of them still believe that Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim.


----------



## olivaw

*Hillary Clinton wins mock student election in a landslide. *



> More than 380,000 students in grades 2 through 12 have voted to elect Hillary Clinton as the next president of the United States.
> 
> Held by the 3-year-old education start-up Newsela, a platform for boosting literacy rates across the US, the voting took place from October 17 to November 1. The electorate consisted of 384,972 students from all 50 states.
> 
> When the votes were counted, Clinton took 57% to Donald Trump's 32%. Green Party candidate Jill Stein and Libertarian Party candidate Gary Johnson split the remainder.


http://www.businessinsider.com/student-election-hillary-landslide-2016-11


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Eclectic12 said:


> How about a law school blog?
> http://law.marquette.edu/facultyblo...and-the-birthers-1880’s-style/comment-page-1/
> 
> Or an 1884 published book? https://www.scribd.com/doc/18450082...Subject-Became-President-of-the-United-States
> 
> Chicago Legal News ...
> https://www.scribd.com/document/29744612/Breckinridge-Long-A-Natural-Born-Citizen-Within
> 
> How about the Nashua Telegraph newspaper in 1976 saying under a strict interpretation of the constitution, Senator Lowel Weicker under consideration to be Ford's running mate would not be eligible to president despite two past presidential candidates who ran also being born out of the US?
> https://news.google.com/newspapers?...2448134&dq=weicker+natural-born-citizen&hl=en
> 
> Or maybe the University of California, Davis School of Law that says McCain can't be allowed as president.
> https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=1157621
> 
> 
> It seems trying to figure out what "natural born citizen" means and who it applies to has been a long standing controversy instead of a recent issue in the last twelve years or so.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers


Some interesting links. According to the first one, it is possible that Chester A Arthur, who was born when his parents lived in Vermont, was actually born when his mother was visiting relatives in Canada. But it is impossible to prove either way. The others concern people who were never President. So, I would say you have proven that this subject has always been taken seriously, but that there is no proof any President has not been legitimate.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It seems the Clintons don't believe ANY laws apply to them, not even local building codes. This is from Western Journalism 

http://www.westernjournalism.com/clintons-didnt-play-rules-renovating-property/

Report: Clintons Didn’t Play By The Rules In Renovating Their Posh NY Property

"... you still have to get the permits."

by Jack Davis October 29, 2016 at 11:18am

Just about every homeowner knows the way it works: When it is time to renovate or expand the house, one of the first stops is to the local city hall or town office to get the required building permit before any work is done.

Not Bill and Hillary Clinton.

For the past few months, the Clintons have been renovating a house they bought in Chappaqua, N.Y., without getting several required permits.

The Clintons bought the $1.16 million property in August, reportedly for Chelsea Clinton and her family. The house is near the $1.7 million home the Clintons own in the posh Westchester County community.

Town of New Castle Building Inspector William Maskiell wrote a report after visiting the home Oct. 5, after the department received a complaint about excavation work there.

When he arrived, he found there had been renovations to the kitchen, floors and walls. Maskiell said he told the contractor that permits were required.

“He said they have to have it done by Thanksgiving. I said that’s nice, but you still have to get the permits,” Maskiell told the New York Post.

“During conversation I was told that the owners wanted to have all work done and finished by Thanksgiving and were quite adamant about it and what had started as a paint job turned into this,” Maskiell’s Oct. 17 inspection report said.

Additionally, an in-ground swimming pool had been filled in and covered with gravel, according to the report.

The Clintons need to obtain a demolition permit for the pool, a permit for the house renovations, and certification that the material used to fill the pool is not from a contaminated source, Maskiell said.

“I have to make sure the fill wasn’t contaminated or contained any hazardous materials,” he said.

The Clintons also have permit issues at their residence. Although they obtained variances in 2000 for items such as a guardhouse and higher fence, the variances needed to be renewed every five years.

They weren’t.

“Consequently, they are null and void. They should have come back in 2005, 2010 and 2015. So the variances have expired and they have to start from scratch” and reapply, said Maskiell, who added “during a standard records search and follow-up conversations” there were some other outstanding permits needed for an electrical inspection and to have the town engineer sign off on the sprinkler system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How much contempt for the law and the people of the United States do you have, when you pull something like this while running for President?

Or alternatively, how incompetent are they when you trust your staff to take care of things like this and they don't?


----------



## gibor365

Last several days market pricing in Trump victory.

*Trump victory would be ‘net positive’ for Canadian economy, stocks, analyst says*
http://www.bnn.ca/trump-victory-wou...canadian-economy-stocks-analyst-says-1.573789


*Did the Stock Market Just Predict a Trump Victory?*
http://etfdailynews.com/2016/11/02/did-the-stock-market-just-predict-a-trump-victory/

P.S. imho, if Trump wins and markets dive , it will be good day to buy


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I expected some market action because of the election, immediately after if not before. So I put on a bunch of butterflies in the SPY more than a month ago. As of today am up about $1700 and the market has hardly done anything yet. I don't usually do butterflies but I will from now on.


----------



## Nelley

Latest poll has Trump up by 3 in VIRGINIA-Crooked Hillary ain't winning squat if she loses Virginia.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> .
> 
> 
> wraphter may i ask whether your moral tut-tutting slops over onto 4-star general David Petraeus?
> 
> in 2012 petraeus resigned as director of the CIA because he had been caught passing classified information to his mistress, an overly-adoring West Point graduate who was married to someone else, as was the general himself.
> 
> a fine scandal then bloomed. It occupied the nation, especially the part about the gf flying to middle eastern combat zones under the general's command, so that she could interview him in the field for a book on counter-terrorism which she was supposed to be writing.
> 
> when all the dust finally settled, general Petraeus ended up with a fat-paying job as director of Kohlman Kravis Roberts global institute. He's also been a paid lecturer at CUNY, the university of southern California & Harvard U.
> 
> petraeus kept his army pension & possibly also a CIA pension. He was given a two-year probationary sentence - lightest of the light - & fined a relatively small amount that ranges from $40,000 to $100,000, depending on which source one consults. Petraeus never faced as much as a hint of prison.
> 
> by last account, missus petraeus stayed by her man through thick & thin. I'm not sure what happened to the gf's hubby, he may be the only one to have fled the sinking ship of his marriage.
> 
> if general Petraeus' story is any kind of model, we should all aim to betray state secrets with beautiful enamorata. Not only could we hope to have fun with the basic action, we would also gain celebrity status. With that, we'd be able to command better consulting gigs, higher promotions & an aura of glamour that would be as radiant as a halo.
> 
> after all, the same thing happened to Bill.
> 
> 
> .


Hello hp,

In terms of reputation and career Petreus lost a lot.He resigned his job as Director of the CIA, which is a very prestigious position.He had been mentioned as a possible presidential candidate but no longer. 

There was mention of a jail term, but his lawyer,David Kendall, who is also Hillary's lawyer was successful in avoiding that. 



> David H. Petraeus, a retired general considered one of the greatest military minds of his generation, pleaded guilty Thursday to a misdemeanor charge of mishandling classified materials, ending a long-running legal saga *that had threatened to send him to prison.*
> 
> ............
> 
> Petraeus, who admitted he provided the materials to his former mistress and biographer, will instead face a two-year probationary period. U.S. Magistrate Judge David Keesler also imposed a $100,000 fine — more than double the amount recommended by prosecutors — to reflect the “seriousness of the offense.”
> 
> *The deal angered FBI agents who worked on the lengthy investigation and who thought Petraeus should have been treated more harshly because of the information in the notebooks and what they considered his lack of candor.*
> 
> When FBI agents confronted him in his CIA office in October 2012, Petraeus said he had never provided classified information to Broadwell, prosecutors said.
> 
> The FBI searched Petraeus’s house in April 2013 and found the books in an unlocked drawer in his study. The books contained top-secret information that the Justice Department said could cause “exceptionally grave damage” to national security if disclosed.
> 
> That information included code words for secret intelligence programs, identities of covert officers, war strategy and deliberative discussions with the National Security Council.
> 
> ..........
> 
> During the Thursday hearing, one of Petraeus’s attorneys, David E. Kendall, told the judge, “This is not a case about dissemination of classified information into the public.” *He urged the judge not to incarcerate his client on the misdemeanor charge, which carried a possible sentence of up to one year in prison.*
> 
> .......
> 
> *“A sentence of incarceration on these facts would be unprecedented and a deviation from the norm,” said Kendall, who stressed the former general’s service as a commander of two wars.*


He escaped jail. This probably helped Hillary. Her case apparently was weaker than his so she got off. If they had jailed Petraeus, they could 
have dealt more harshly with Hillary. She was lucky Petraeus was not jailed.

Petreus has recovered better than than Paula Broadwell.



> It was 6:30 a.m. at the United States Military Academy, the sun was rising over the Hudson River, and Paula Broadwell was in athletic gear. With a half-dozen women, she rotated between sprints and burpees. Sweating onto the pavement, the group was perched atop an overlook called Trophy Point, in the shadow of a 46-foot battle monument memorializing those killed in the Civil War. There is a female statue in bronze at the top, arms outstretched regally, who is said to represent “fame.”
> 
> Ms. Broadwell was here in April for a 40th anniversary celebration for the academy’s first class of women, who enrolled two decades before she would graduate near the top of her class, with multiple varsity letters. It was also the first time she had been back to campus since 2012, when she achieved her own kind of unwanted fame.
> 
> Yes, this is that Paula Broadwell, the mentee-turned-biographer of David H. Petraeus; the West Point graduate and military intelligence officer who was revealed, through a high-profile F.B.I. investigation, to have had a romantic relationship with Mr. Petraeus, a former C.I.A. director and the highest-profile general from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is also the Paula Broadwell who would be publicly portrayed as a “homewrecker,” a “stalker,” a “temptress,” the woman who “brought down the director of the C.I.A.” And, perhaps with the most frequency, as the “mistress,” a word for which there is no male equivalent.
> 
> ...........
> 
> For two months, he remained home in isolation — reading, communicating with friends and pedaling on his exercise bike. “One foot in front of the other, one day at a time,” Peter Mansoor, a military historian who was Mr. Petraeus’s right-hand man in Iraq, recalled Mr. Petraeus as saying. He was sentenced last April to two years’ probation and a $100,000 fine. Ms. Broadwell was never charged.
> 
> ...........
> 
> Nearly four years later, Mr. Petraeus is now a partner in a New York private equity firm, and has advised the White House on the war against the Islamic State. He publishes op-ed articles, speaks publicly and has affiliations with three universities, including Harvard. He was recently listed among five former military leaders suggested by a Washington Post columnist whom Republicans might have considered drafting for president.
> 
> “I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see him in some senior role in the next administration, Democratic or Republican,” said Vernon Loeb, the managing editor at The Houston Chronicle, with whom Ms. Broadwell wrote her biography of Mr. Petraeus.
> 
> Ms. Broadwell has struggled to find her footing. For weeks, reporters camped outside her home in Charlotte, N.C., where she was trying to restore her marriage. Friends sent over groceries and hot meals for her family — her husband, Scott, and sons, 8 and 10 — and staged interference so Ms. Broadwell could cut across her neighbors’ lawns, climbing over fences, to escape for a morning run.
> 
> She lost her military security clearance; her promotion from major to lieutenant colonel was revoked when the news broke. The F.B.I. still has her computers — including her dissertation research — and she withdrew from her Ph.D. program. She said she was told in more than one job interview that, while she was qualified, hiring her would be a public-relations nightmare.
> 
> Four years on, her name still pops up in the news with regularity. She tracks these references with precision. Every time there is a new development — a legal update, Mr. Petraeus’s sentencing, the recently self-published memoir by the woman on the receiving end of her emails — she said she is reminded: that for him, the affair is a footnote to an otherwise celebrated career. But for her — not as decorated, not as public, but still accomplished in her own right — it has become a lasting stain.
> 
> “I’m the first to admit I screwed up,” Ms. Broadwell said. “Really badly, I know that. But how long does a person pay for their mistake?


Looking forward to November 8th?
Judgement Day.


----------



## sags

It sounds like it might be a tight election after all.

Clinton has been badly hurt by the Comey statement. His unprecedented announcement has already affected the election.

He is now under pressure to find something, which isn't an optimal way to conduct an unbiased investigation.

If it all ends up nothing, or something trivial or minor..........Comey will be lucky to get a job as a Walmart security guard.


----------



## Eclectic12

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Some interesting links ... I would say you have proven that this subject has always been taken seriously, but that there is no proof any President has not been legitimate.


I wasn't trying to prove numbers ... only that it hasn't been the smooth sailing until recently that has been implied.


Now if someone wants to pay me to keep digging - that's a different story. :glee:


Cheers


*PS*

It seems clear that while the summary web site may be suspect - there's lots of other sources.
So no, I don't see myself as trolling ... more commenting on the contrast.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> It sounds like it might be a tight election after all.
> 
> Clinton has been badly hurt by the Comey statement. His unprecedented announcement has already affected the election.
> 
> He is now under pressure to find something, which isn't an optimal way to conduct an unbiased investigation.
> 
> If it all ends up nothing, or something trivial or minor..........Comey will be lucky to get a job as a Walmart security guard.


I thought Comey was working for Putin-maybe Comey can run the Kremlin-hard to keep track of all these MSM Conspiracy Theories lately.


----------



## sags

Guess who is back ? Now that Trump appears to have a chance of victory, Ted Cruz is going to stump for him.

"Moral character" Ted Cruz..............hahahaha.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/ted-cruz-mike-pence-230657


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> If it all ends up nothing, or something trivial or minor..........Comey will be lucky to get a job as a Walmart security guard.


I would not be surprised if Comey is done either way. He's damaged goods. Much of what has transpired may not be entirely his fault but he's the guy in charge and it happened on his watch. 

He has lost the confidence of politicians on both sides. Regardless of what they say in public, no politician wants a rogue FBI director. Too reminiscent of J. Edgar Hoover. 

The turmoil in the FBI suggests that he has lost the confidence of his staff.

On the one hand, I feel a little sorry for him because he faced a difficult situation. On the other, I don't because his letter was too vague.


----------



## TomB19

Republicans should have another Benghazi hearing and call Clinton to testify. That would help out their boy Trump.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Nope...she simply questioned Hillary's decision to defend a child rapist. Your progressive ideology prevents you from understanding why some people might find that slightly more offensive than Trump's locker room talk.


Hillary was doing her job. Trump was talking about sexually assaulting women.


----------



## mordko

Black church burnt in Mississippi. "Vote Trump" painted on it. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/303965-vote-trump-painted-on-burned-black-church


----------



## Argonaut

Mississippi Church thing was a false flag operation, nothing to see there. Trump supporters already raised money to pay for it.

Hillary Clinton is finished, the torrent of bad news continues.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1139305239458692

Non-duplicate emails on Weiner laptop. Clinton Foundation being aggressively investigated by the FBI as well. It's over.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Comey exceeded his authority the first time. The second time he went by the book. When another investigation turned up new evidence he notified Congress as he is supposed to.


----------



## mordko

"Mississippi Church thing was a false flag operation, nothing to see there. " Or not.

All American neo-nazis/KKK types are rather excited about Trump.


----------



## mrPPincer

woop dee doo, more emails, didn't we do this already?

Doesn't look like it's over at this point, although the email BS has maybe pulled a few more over, true.

I doubt this BS email story two point oh can pull enough gullibles over.


----------



## new dog

Hillary is a criminal and will rig the election I believe. Here is the results one week early and Hillary wins.

http://alexanderhiggins.com/2016-election-results-reportedly-posted-nbc-ftp-server-1-week-early/


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Black church burnt in Mississippi. "Vote Trump" painted on it. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/303965-vote-trump-painted-on-burned-black-church


Typical Clinton Crime Family stuff-at this point most people expect it.


----------



## olivaw

You can't blame Trump for his supporters' actions but you can blame Trump for expressing admiration for totalitarian leaders. That, and the racist sentiments of his campaign message, has emboldened the neo-nazi/KKK types. They think they're part of the mainstream now.

The moron who screamed Jew-S-A at the press, the vote Trump message scrawled on the burned black church, the demonization of elites and the media, the reawakening of the "secret-cabal" conspiracy theories. What could possibly go wrong? :mad2:


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Typical Clinton Crime Family stuff-at this point most people expect it.


^Conspiracy Nelley, this is slander, do you really want to go to prison as you have implied upthread?

Produce some evidence if you have it.. Oh right. You don't. What you have is empty rhetoric and **** posts, congrats.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> You can't blame Trump for his supporters' actions but you can blame Trump for expressing admiration for totalitarian leaders. That, and the racist sentiments of his campaign message, has emboldened the neo-nazi/KKK types. They think they're part of the mainstream now.
> 
> The moron who screamed Jew-S-A at the press, the vote Trump message scrawled on the burned black church, the demonization of elites and the media, the reawakening of the "secret-cabal" conspiracy theories. What could possibly go wrong? :mad2:


You sound angry-this will cheer you up https://www.google.ca/search?q=hill...ei=fKUaWPL2NYTUmwHTrpJo#imgrc=zwwLQHUd9xlHSM:


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> ^Conspiracy Nelley, this is slander, do you really want to go to prison as you have implied upthread?
> 
> Produce some evidence if you have it.. Oh right. You don't. What you have is empty rhetoric and **** posts, congrats.


Who are you-J Edgar Hoover in a miniskirt?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> You sound angry-this will cheer you up https://www.google.ca/search?q=hill...ei=fKUaWPL2NYTUmwHTrpJo#imgrc=zwwLQHUd9xlHSM:


Angry at the burned church and the Jew-S-A guy - OFC.

Angry at the election - nah. Hillary is still ahead. It is going to be a nail biter (as I said days ago) but the race is Hillary's to lose.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Angry at the burned church and the Jew-S-A guy - OFC.
> 
> Angry at the election - nah. Hillary is still ahead. It is going to be a nail biter (as I said days ago) but the race is Hillary's to lose.


Then be angry at the Clintons-they paid for it-in other news, the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet is one step closer to prison http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...ctment_likely_in_clinton_foundation_case.html


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Who are you-J Edgar Hoover in a miniskirt?


^that would be a halloween costume scarier than a scary clown


----------



## sags

The closer the race, the sweeter the victory for Hillary Clinton.


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> Then be angry at the Clintons-they paid for it-in other news, the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet is one step closer to prison http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...ctment_likely_in_clinton_foundation_case.html


"sources, could, possibly, likely,potentially ".........it sounds legit.


----------



## olivaw

Why did Donald Trump's son-in-law's newspaper *decline to endorse him*?


----------



## olivaw

*Even If Trump Loses, White Nationalists Say They’ve Won*



> Last month, several American white nationalists traveled to an anti-immigration conference in Wismar, Germany, and told attendants that Donald Trump’s presidential campaign represents a win for the movement ― even if he loses the election.


The source is Huffington Post, a liberal news organization.


----------



## mordko

One can and should blame Trump for the actions of his supporters. Trump has been sending very clear messages, "dog whistling" throughout his campaign. Like when he claimed that a judge can't be fair because he is "Mexican". That's an ethnicity, blood-based criterion. Begs a question how anyone can expect President Trump to be fair to all Americans regardless of race.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Nope...she [Nelley] simply questioned Hillary's decision to defend a child rapist.



that is not true. What Nelley fabricated upthread was a total lie that hillary clinton had defended a rapist by pleading the 12-year-old victim's dream fantasies.

in reality there was no hearing. The crime lab had accidentally destroyed the key piece of evidence, therefore the prosecutor could not present any case. Hillary did not plead anything in a court of law.

as it happens, i listened to the original audio recording of hillary's interview. It was not supposed to be a public broadcast. Clinton made clear that she had not wanted to take the pro bono rape case but she had been forced to take it as part of her pro bono faculty responsibilities as a lecturer in criminal law at the university.

.





jue.


----------



## olivaw

*LA Times: The polls might seem wild but this election is closing a lot like the last*. 

Both Republican and Democratic pollsters believe: 

Trump to perform better than Romney with blue-collar white voters, worse with suburban, college-educated voters, especially women.
States may shift slightly from 2012 — Clinton may win North Carolina, which President Obama lost, but lose Ohio, which Obama carried 
Last Friday’s news from FBI Director James B. Comey has had a small, but mostly transient, influence on the race.
Clinton lead is roughly similar to Obama’s 4-point margin of victory from four years ago.



> Neil Newhouse, who served as Romney’s chief pollster four years ago, said Comey’s news “put the brakes” on what was starting to look like a runaway victory for Clinton, but that she was still ahead by 2 to 4 percentage points.
> 
> “Hillary is still likely to win,” Newhouse said, even if that means “limping across the finish line.”
> 
> On the Democratic side, Anna Greenberg, whose firm polls for many of the party’s Senate and congressional candidates, called the race “pretty stable.”
> 
> “There has been narrowing, which was to be expected. Trump was always going to consolidate more Republicans, and I don't think Clinton was ever going to win by 10 to 12 points” — as some surveys had shown in the days after the final presidential debate Oct. 19 — she said.


----------



## olivaw

A closer look (Seth Meyers). Polls tightening and how to choose. 





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v97xH6Bof0


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> Mississippi Church thing was a false flag operation, nothing to see there. Trump supporters already raised money to pay for it.
> 
> Hillary Clinton is finished, the torrent of bad news continues.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1139305239458692
> 
> Non-duplicate emails on Weiner laptop. Clinton Foundation being aggressively investigated by the FBI as well. It's over.




argo that facebook link is a biased piece of rumour from a clinton-hating fox news anchor.

there's no hard news in what anchor bret baier has to say. It's all gossip. The FBI investigation of the clinton foundation had been surfacing in mainstream media for at least a year. The Justice department had refused to authorize in-depth investigation on the grounds there was not enough evidence.

all that's happened now is that the weiner e-mails will give the FBI more material to scour on the ongoing clinton foundation ticket. This is not news & should not be read out as news.

baier is visibly fudging in this video when he says, vaguely, that FBI agents are receiving "a lot" of new information. In reality, given the importance of the case so close to the election date, FBI agents would be under draconian gag rules. Sorry, but it's impossible to imagine a single FBI agent defying orders for silence in order to convey silly rumours such as these to the likes of bret baier.

look how baier is clearly trying to puff up his hillary attack by spitting out pretentious titles. The alleged foundation investigation isn't being led by a plain FBI. No ma'am, the investigators now go by the glorified moniker of "Public Corruption Branch of the Criminal Investigative Division of the FBI."

of course it's a criminal investigation, it's the Federal Bureau of Investigation, duh. What does baier think, that the rest of the Bureau spends its days investigating the nutritional properties of pablum as a baby cereal?

.


----------



## carverman

Saw this on the morning news..besides the Chicago Cubs finally winning the World Series after a 108 yr "drought"...
Harry's Bar in NYC (or Paris) conducted a STRAW poll and Hilliary is leading by 204 straw poll votes right now.

What's with Trump and his cap with the slogan "Make America Great Again" pulled over his eyes?


----------



## SMK

Unless there is another last minute Clinton surprise, I don't see how someone like Trump could win. 

Clinton is a "deplorable" candidate {not just those she called deplorables}, but Trump is by far the most dangerous and unpredictable one.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> Clinton is a "deplorable" candidate {not just those she called deplorables}, but Trump is by far the most dangerous and unpredictable one.


The Democrats come out with a talking point (Trump is dangerous), and like trained seals, the Hillary supporters repeat it over and over. They've been trained very well.


----------



## SMK

^I can't stand Hillary, I think she's a woman blinded by greed not ambition, no matter what Obama says about her.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> The Democrats come out with a talking point (Trump is dangerous), and like trained seals, the Hillary supporters repeat it over and over. They've been trained very well.


Not sure I can agree with that-I have seen some impressive trained seals-the really smart ones have the ability to learn from their mistakes and think logically.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> ^I can't stand Hillary, I think she's a woman blinded by greed not ambition, no matter what Obama says about her.


After 8 years of failure and lies, why would anyone listen to the BS coming out of Obama's mouth?


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> The Democrats come out with a talking point (Trump is dangerous), and like trained seals, the Hillary supporters repeat it over and over. They've been trained very well.


Don't blame it on democrats but on Trump himself for all the self-inflicted wounds.


----------



## Nelley

Fun is watching these idiots whine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fsU1oogBo0


----------



## TomB19

Trump has a good chance. All they have to do is have the FBI announce that Tim Kaine is being investigated for something really bad and they should be able to win.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Trump has a good chance. All they have to do is have the FBI announce that Tim Kaine is being investigated for something really bad and they should be able to win.


The creepy guy has his own baggage-they will keep running this fact based TV commercial on Kaine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w630RqQ2Ges


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump unpredictable? What a laugh. He is the most predictable guy there is. You can depend on him reacting the same way to the same stimulus every time, even when it would be in his best interest not to.


----------



## sags

Congratulations to long suffering Cubbies fans.

My mom was a lifelong Cleveland fan, and my parents celebrated their honeymoon flying across Lake Erie to Cleveland for a baseball game.

It was September 3, 1949 and thanks to the meticulous record keeping of major league baseball, I know the details of the game they watched. One of my sisters has the black and white video of my parents getting on a propeller driven aircraft.

Her favorite player was pitcher Bob Feller who pitched that day, but Cleveland lost the game 4-3 to the St. Louis Browns.

_Saturday, September 3, 1949, , Cleveland Stadium
Attendance: 18,236, Time of Game: 2:23_

Attendance was 18,234 plus my mom and dad..........:friendly_wink:

I think mom liked Cleveland for the now politically incorrect mascot though.

Now if only the Leafs could win a Stanley Cup.


----------



## sags

Listening to Fox News on Sirius today......_IF Trump wins these states (list them all off), then wins NC and Florida........he wins easily.
_
Yea okay....and if a frog had wings he wouldn't have to hop around.

The race has tightened, but people don't realize that 1% of the polls is millions of people.

With Clinton leading by 3-4 points in many States that Trump needs to win, that is millions of voters who would have to change their vote from Clinton to Trump for him to have a chance.

I doubt it is going to happen in the next couple of days.


----------



## SMK

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump unpredictable? What a laugh. He is the most predictable guy there is. You can depend on him reacting the same way to the same stimulus every time, even when it would be in his best interest not to.


Psychopaths are predictable? I didn't know.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump unpredictable? What a laugh. He is the most predictable guy there is. You can depend on him reacting the same way to the same stimulus every time, even when it would be in his best interest not to.



he can't stop himself from kissing em. they'll let him every time.

if it's his own daughter he'd like to date her, 

most females - overweight, uppity, assertive, successful - should be thrown in jail though. women over 40 are prison meat.

stop the pig immigs! no more mexicans or moslems!! that'll get your jobs back pronto pennsylvania!!!

putin acts like a pal but we'll keep a nuclear missile shield on him anyways

can ah dah. ah lepp poh. where are those places.

.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Congratulations to long suffering Cubbies fans.
> 
> My mom was a lifelong Cleveland fan, and my parents celebrated their honeymoon flying across Lake Erie to Cleveland for a baseball game.
> 
> It was September 3, 1949 and thanks to the meticulous record keeping of major league baseball, I know the details of the game they watched. One of my sisters has the black and white video of my parents getting on a propeller driven aircraft.
> 
> Her favorite player was pitcher Bob Feller who pitched that day, but Cleveland lost the game 4-3 to the St. Louis Browns.
> 
> _Saturday, September 3, 1949, , Cleveland Stadium
> Attendance: 18,236, Time of Game: 2:23_
> 
> Attendance was 18,234 plus my mom and dad..........:friendly_wink:
> 
> I think mom liked Cleveland for the now politically incorrect mascot though.
> 
> Now if only the Leafs could win a Stanley Cup.



hey. I have a friend says her American dad - still alive in upstate massena new york - her parents' best wedding present was tickets to the Cassius Clay/Sonny Liston fight.

.


----------



## bass player

Hillary is also predictable....30 years of lies and corruption.

Hillary supporters are also predictable...in spite of 30 years of lies and corruption, they simply pretend that none of it has happened and eagerly lie to themselves.

The corrupt are leading the blind and the clueless down a path of ruin.


----------



## bass player

Watching Obama desperately shriek and shill for Hillary on CNN...every second word is "I". It's all about him and his massive ego...he can't say anything without referring to himself as the savior of America, lol. What a joke.


----------



## olivaw

An old video, but a good video ....


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Hillary is also predictable....30 years of lies and corruption.
> 
> Hillary supporters are also predictable...in spite of 30 years of lies and corruption, they simply pretend that none of it has happened and eagerly lie to themselves.
> 
> The corrupt are leading the blind and the clueless down a path of ruin.



gawd you are such a cranky old phart.

bass this is a financial forum. do you & the gf nelliekins ever have anything to contribute?


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> Hillary is also predictable....30 years of lies and corruption....


Also predictable has been the 30 years of anything but enthusiasm or overwhelming support for Hillary. She lost the presidential race to an unknown Obama first, and now is neck and neck with a psychopath.

BUT she's better than Trump.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

SMK said:


> Psychopaths are predictable? I didn't know.


Yeah right, Trump is nuts. He started his campaign with nothing, no political experience, no party backing, no money except his own. Somehow by a series of insane flukes he ended up with the nomination. That is either the most fantastic series of lucky breaks in history, a literal billion to one shot, or he is crazy like a fox. Scott "Dilbert" Adams analyzed his campaign from the standpoint of persuasion and concluded a year ago that he was going to do much better than anyone anticipated. The "crazy" things he says and does, are carefully thought out and planned to have a certain effect. After a while you will notice, he says and does the same "crazy" things over and over in a very predictable way.

Trump is about as hard to see through as a pane of glass. For 40 years he has sought the public eye, building himself up into a big shot, bullshitting about his accomplishments and chiselling every advantage for himself. My guess is he wants the money, and wants fame and stardom, and long ago figured out how to get what he wants by bullshitting and manipulating people. This makes him sound like a real *******, and he is. I don't like the guy myself and think he would make a terrible President but that doesn't blind me to reality.


----------



## SMK

^ As President though, not debater, do we really know what to expect from him? He's said a lot of crazy things, like he'll blow Iranian boats out of the water, but the dictator wannabe is more talk than anything else.


----------



## bass player

Obama is about to give himself an aneurism. He's literally screaming on live TV. The desperation from the left as they realize that they may lose has reached insane levels.


----------



## SMK

Rusty O'Toole said:


> For 40 years he has sought the public eye.


And for about as long as Hillary's been in politics, Trump has wanted to be president or at least considered it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZpMJeynBeg


----------



## bass player

Trump wants to be president. Hillary wants more power so she can enrich herself further.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Obama is about to give himself an aneurism. He's literally screaming on live TV.


Curious. Do you have a link or can you indicate which show he lost his cool on?

Thanks.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> Curious. Do you have a link or can you indicate which show he lost his cool on?
> 
> Thanks.


It was on CNN (done now). I don't know who else covered his speech.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I'm astonished Obama is capable of feeling that strongly about anything but himself. I noticed long ago that no matter what he was talking about, it could be something as serious as war or the deaths of hundreds of people, in the end it would be about "me".


----------



## SMK

Just read that a 269-269 tie is possible. It would be a first but with an election like this one, nothing seems impossible.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

SMK said:


> ^ As President though, not debater, do we really know what to expect from him? He's said a lot of crazy things, like he'll blow Iranian boats out of the water, but the dictator wannabe is more talk than anything else.


He has a long, long history of taking an extreme position as a negotiating ploy. He has done the same thing in this campaign. How many times has he made some colorful remark about a person that got headlines in the news, and later made up with that person? Especially someone who said something about him first.


----------



## carverman

SMK said:


> ^I can't stand Hillary, I think she's a woman *blinded by greed not ambition, *no matter what Obama says about her.


Well even if there is some small chance she doesn't win, she and Bill won't have to go to the foodbanks.



> The most recent estimates of Clinton's net worth put her wealth between $30 and $50 million. Her disclosure to the Federal Election Commission indicates she is worth $31 million. Forbes estimates the combined worth of Hillary and former president Bill Clinton at $45 million.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> Trump wants to be president. Hillary wants more power so she can enrich herself further.


Her history says she's greedy, but it's always been about getting to the top than about amassing a bigger fortune. Power not money is what motivates the Clintons.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I'm astonished Obama is capable of feeling that strongly about anything but himself. I noticed long ago that no matter what he was talking about, it could be something as serious as war or the deaths of hundreds of people, in the end it would be about "me".


Someone once counted during one of his speeches...in just 6 minutes Obama referred to himself 47 times. Even now, in his campaigning for Hillary he demands that people vote for her to "preserve his legacy".


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Cnn news November 3, 2016 Obama: Vote Clinton, Trump would undo my legacy"

Told you it had to be about him. Is this the CNN piece you referred to?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/02/politics/obama-clinton-north-carolina-bidness/


---------Later-------------

Linked to the wrong CNN piece, since corrected.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> He has a long, long history of taking an extreme position as a negotiating ploy. He has done the same thing in this campaign. How many times has he made some colorful remark about a person that got headlines in the news, and later made up with that person? Especially someone who said something about him first.


That's a standard political tactic. For example, a politician says that gas taxes may have to go up 15%. Then, they later reduce that to 4% (the plan all along) and people believe that they scored a victory and "saved" 11%.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> He has a long, long history of taking an extreme position as a negotiating ploy. He has done the same thing in this campaign. How many times has he made some colorful remark about a person that got headlines in the news, and later made up with that person? Especially someone who said something about him first.


Trump suffers from bombastic overblown speech mindset. 
He ignores the old axiom.."before putting mouth in gear, make sure brain is engaged"


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Obama is about to give himself an aneurism. He's literally screaming on live TV. The desperation from the left as they realize that they may lose has reached insane levels.



so far this am, it does appear that you are making this up.

if there were any merit to your screaming aneurism accusation, it would be all over the news. Not mainstream media. It would be all over the right wing fringe.

please keep us posted. can you find your video loop? did the episode ever happen? 

thankx

.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "Cnn news November 3, 2016 Obama: Vote Clinton, Trump would undo my legacy"
> 
> Told you it had to be about him. Is this the CNN piece you referred to?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7jVLOyl2G8


No, he is campaigning for Hillary in Florida and spoke for about a half hour. CNN carried the live speech about an hour ago...I can't find footage of it.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> That's a standard political tactic. For example, a politician says that gas taxes may have to go up 15%. Then, they later reduce that to 4% (the plan all along) and people believe that they scored a victory and "saved" 11%.


They do it because it works. You seem to be the only person other than me who noticed.


----------



## bass player

Found it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6KkFh20Dk


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> hey. I have a friend says her American dad - still alive in upstate massena new york - her parents' best wedding present was tickets to the Cassius Clay/Sonny Liston fight.
> 
> .


LOL..you know when your new wife agrees to go to a boxing match....... you better not mess up


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Watched bits of Obama's Florida speech and it seemed a typical ward heeler or community organizer effort. Can you tell us exactly when he was ranting? I'm not going to watch the whole hour.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> No, he is campaigning for Hillary in Florida and spoke for about a half hour. CNN carried the live speech about an hour ago..._*I can't find footage of it*_.



believe me, if obama had screamed on live TV, it would be all over the right wing fringe media in a flash

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> hey. I have a friend says her American dad - still alive in upstate massena new york - her parents' best wedding present was tickets to the Cassius Clay/Sonny Liston fight.
> 
> .


Hillary Clinton was born in October 1947. The first Clay/Liston fight was in February 1964. What are you suggesting?


----------



## sags

Florida is the key state. If Clinton wins Florida the 29 electoral votes puts her over the magic 270 number.

Clinton is leading by 2-4% depending on the poll, and the Democrats ground game adds another 1%.

The Clinton campaign and Obama know that Latinos are voting for Clinton in record numbers. 

If they can get African Americans to take the time to vote.....Clinton wins Florida and the Presidency.

If African Americans wake up to Donald Trump as President elect, it is because they didn't bother to vote.


----------



## humble_pie

rusty i've been meaning to post this message for a while. Better late than never & the message is as true today as ever. Goes like this:

thankx very much for upholding the right wing side of the debate on here with dignity, reason & intelligent discourse.

of course, the fact that you can grow green onions out of nothing, cook up nutritious soups, run a cheerful healthy meals community restaurant & trade options like a wizard puts you high in my esteem as well.

.


----------



## sags

If Trump loses the election, who in the Republican fold will bring them back to their true conservative base of fiscal responsibility, wholesome values and social concerns ?

It isn't Ted Cruz..........Mitt Romney and John McCain don't attract a lot of fervor anymore.

I looked at the primary choices and thought..........."really, is that the best they have".

I hope they find someone to lead them, because an alt right party on one side and an unrestricted liberal party on the other isn't good for those in the middle.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Watched bits of Obama's Florida speech and it seemed a typical ward heeler or community organizer effort. Can you tell us exactly when he was ranting? I'm not going to watch the whole hour.


It was here and there in bits and spurts...it was on in the background while I was doing other things. Every now and they he'd go over the top and get overly animated and I would pay closer attention. However, I can't subject myself to it again to pick out certain parts.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> Found it:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6KkFh20Dk


No, that's not it. There is no screaming in this one.

Perhaps watching a high energy campaign speech confused you. Obama is a highly engaging speaker. He's great on the stump.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> No, that's not it. There is no screaming in this one.
> 
> Perhaps watching a high energy campaign speech confused you.


That wasn't high energy, it reeked of desperation.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> rusty i've been meaning to post this message for a while. Better late than never & the message is as true today as ever. Goes like this:
> 
> thankx very much for upholding the right wing side of the debate on here with dignity, reason & intelligent discourse.
> 
> of course, the fact that you can grow green onions out of nothing, cook up nutritious soups, run a cheerful healthy meals community restaurant & trade options like a wizard puts you high in my esteem as well.
> 
> .


Ha ha ha way to dodge the question. But if this is a compliment I will take it, with thanks. I don't get that many and it means something coming from you.

It's not so much that I am a Trump fan. I'm not. But there are some things going on in this campaign. I mean fakery and manipulation on both sides. To me it sticks out a mile, I don't know how others don't see it. If everyone understood how the public is being played, in this and a million other ways, I don't know what would happen. But it seems every few years there is another major disaster (like the real estate collapse) that nobody saw coming, that should have been obvious if it wasn't for distraction and misdirection. There are disasters brewing right now that nobody will see till it is too late. The election is only one of them. And far from the most serious. The Americans elect crazy people President all the time. Somehow it never seems to make much difference. Do you remember how the left predicted the collapse of the country if crazy Ronald Reagan got elected? He actually was suffering from Alzheimer's which nobody knew until later. Now everyone remembers him rather fondly. The government didn't collapse, he didn't start a nuclear war with Russia, somehow the world went on. I predict no matter who wins the election, they will have one of the worst Presidents ever elected and in 10 years nobody will care.


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> That wasn't high energy, it reeked of desperation.


That's retarded.

I will say this: Obama strayed from the truth on a few occasions. He framed some of Trump's actions and failings in a way that was not truthful.

It's a shame because the thrust of what he was saying was true and on point but there's always that temptation to push it just a little further.


----------



## SMK

I found it humorous how Obama gave the address of where to go and vote after the rally. 

The poll numbers do give reason to feel anxious.


----------



## Eclectic12

Rusty O'Toole said:


> humble_pie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sags said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations to long suffering Cubbies fans.
> My mom was a lifelong Cleveland fan, and my parents celebrated their honeymoon flying across Lake Erie to Cleveland for a baseball game ...
> 
> 
> 
> hey. I have a friend says her American dad - still alive in upstate massena new york - her parents' best wedding present was tickets to the Cassius Clay/Sonny Liston fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hillary Clinton was born in October 1947. The first Clay/Liston fight was in February 1964. What are you suggesting?
Click to expand...

ROTL ... Thanks for the chuckle!

Is it that you were reading too fast? Or maybe like me, the caffeine hadn't kick in yet?
Or are you seeing false Clinton claims to debunk behind every post?


The way I read it, the Trump/Clinton/US election path was left in the dust, sparked by the Cubs ending their 108 year drought. This off topic post sparked yet another off topic walk down memory lane.


I am not sure why you are adding Clinton to the mix.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Ha ha ha way to dodge the question ...
> It's not so much that I am a Trump fan. I'm not. But there are some things going on in this campaign. I mean fakery and manipulation on both sides ...


All interesting ... but as I say in post # 4351 (is this thread really this long? *whew*), what does the reminiscing of cubs fans and fight fans have to with Clinton's birthdate?

Or to put it a different way, what are you suggesting by adding Clinton when AFAICT, she wasn't there?


Cheers


----------



## bass player

Eclectic12 said:


> All interesting ... but as I say in post # 4351 (is this thread really this long? *whew*), what does the reminiscing of cubs fans and fight fans have to with Clinton's birthdate?
> 
> Or to put it a different way, what are you suggesting by adding Clinton when AFAICT, she wasn't there?


Maybe she will claim one day she was there when they last won? You know...to go along with her other claims that she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary, and that she landed under sniper fire in Bosnia.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

OK let me spell it out.

Hillary Clinton was born in 1947

Humble Pie says her parents got tickets to the Clay/Liston fight as a wedding present.

But the first Clay/Liston fight wasn't until 1964.

So if Hillary was born in 1947, and her parents weren't married until 1964, that would make her a ....... maybe Trump is right.

(I better point out I am not being serious here. I thought it was a funny mistake, likely she meant to say wedding anniversary present not wedding present)


----------



## TomB19

bass player said:


> That wasn't high energy, it reeked of desperation.


It was a passionate outreach but not desperate.

Trump's attempt to bring Bill Clinton's sexual past into the discussion seemed desperate to me but maybe it's a really important values issue for Trump.

I don't get the idea of directly misrepresenting a video you posted to the thread. You've just posted the source material. Didn't you think people were going to watch it? It's like you want to lose credibility. I don't get it.


----------



## mordko

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I predict no matter who wins the election, they will have one of the worst Presidents ever elected and in 10 years nobody will care.


Hillary will likely be better than Obama. It's hard to be worse. Trump... That would be a new territory. If Trump were to get in the White House, we would likely be remembering the Obama years rather fondly.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Obama is a ward heeler. He does what he is told, reads off the teleprompter then goes out and plays golf. Hillary would be far worse. She would try to get involved in things and make a botch of them like she does everything she touches. Trump is a wild card. He is not crazy as some say but he has no experience of politics and he wants to start off at the top. I am sure if some amateur who spent his life in politics, suggested he could take Trump's place at the head of a multi billion dollar real estate/show biz empire Trump would laugh in his face. Yet that is what he wants to do, in reverse. I don't think he would make any major mistakes, Congress and the cabinet would make sure of that. But it could still be a wild ride.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> OK let me spell it out.
> 
> Hillary Clinton was born in 1947
> 
> Humble Pie says her parents got tickets to the Clay/Liston fight as a wedding present.
> 
> But the first Clay/Liston fight wasn't until 1964.
> 
> So if Hillary was born in 1947, and her parents weren't married until 1964, that would make her a ....... maybe Trump is right.
> 
> (I better point out I am not being serious here. I thought it was a funny mistake, like she meant to say wedding anniversary present not wedding present)




rusty you have got it completely mixed up.

i said my friend's American dad - presently a gentlemen nearing his 80s who is still living in upstate new york - my friend's mother recently passed away - my friend's parents received tickets to one of the cassius clay/sonny liston fights as a wedding present. I don't know which fight.

nothing to do with hillary clinton. Nothing to do with myself. I was just responding to sags' tale of how his parents flew to cleveland to watch a game on their 1949 honeymoon. Sags said his mother was a big cleveland fan. Sags' story didn't have anything to do with hillary clinton either. So sorry about that, Rusty.

ok got it now?

won't you please pay attention, one party suffering from serious delusions like bass player is about all this poor thread can tolerate .each:


.


----------



## Nelley

Here is what the sheep are missing with Trump-the economy is a BIG DEAL to Trump-that is how he will sell his results as POTUS-that one thing-contrast that to bubbleheads like Wynne or Trudeau or Obozo or Crooked Hillary-they don't think it important at all as long as they get their money. Trump unlike most is not doing this to make money-he is doing this at the end of his career for his monstrous ego-he actually thinks he can turn the USA into a monster economy like it was 45 years ago-that is really far-fetched but at least he is a guy who focuses on economic results, not artsy fartsy B/S like Wynnebag. I am very surprised people on an investing forum can't see this.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Ha ha ha way to dodge the question.



i didn't dodge any question. I just posted a message i'd been meaning to post for a couple days. I'm glad you liked it. I'm sure other people on here appreciate your participation in this thread as well.

it's true that ronald reagan had alzheimers in the oval office. But that would have prevented him from blowing up Cheyenne Mountain. Donald trump, on the other hand, has said it's OK to nuke enemies. He doesn't seem to understand it's a split-second mutual destruction.

.


----------



## Eclectic12

Rusty O'Toole said:


> ... Humble Pie says her parents got tickets to the Clay/Liston fight as a wedding present.


If it was HP's parents that received the tickets and Hillary's age matters ... then HP = Chelsea Clinton, in your opinion?

I had no idea CMF had such politically connected posters or that they be willing to post for years! :glee:


It seems clear IMO that there's no family connection to HP (or the Clintons) as the post says:


> ... I have *a friend says her American dad* ...





Rusty O'Toole said:


> ... (I better point out I am not being serious here. I thought it was a funny mistake, like she meant to say wedding anniversary present not wedding present)


You'll have to explain the mistake, I obviously haven't had enough coffee (or something to get it).



So far - the two mistakes I can find are:

a) thinking the tickets were given to HP's parents instead of the friend's parents.

b) thinking adding a bogus reference to Clinton will point out what is thought to be a mistake.



Cheers


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

When you said "her American dad" I thought you meant Clinton. If he was 20 when Hillary was born he could be alive, at nearly 90. So in point of time, it is not out of the question. Let me go back and look at your original post.

Later...... I must be getting punchy. Hillary's name did not appear in your post anywhere.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Obama is about to give himself an aneurism. He's literally screaming on live TV. The desperation from the left as they realize that they may lose has reached insane levels.





bass player said:


> Found it:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6KkFh20Dk




bass the above video proves you are totally wrong. Obama never screams. Obama never shouts. Obama is not having an aneurism. Obama is in superb & total control throughout this excellent campaign speech. He's spontaneous, energetic, at home with the people he's addressing.

i don't recall obama ever campaigning as well for himself in 2008 as he is here campaigning for hillary clinton. Listen to the oratory. There are echoes & traces of JFK.


PS bass you did the same thing - promulgating libel - with your never-ending neurologist/epiPen/parkinson's lies. In the end the beefy guy shielding hillary clinton turned out to be her security guard. In the end you admitted you were wrong. 

but then you promptly put yourself back in the doghouse by moving on to the obscene diaper posts.

.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> When you said "her American dad" I thought you meant Clinton. If he was 20 when Hillary was born he could be alive, at nearly 90. So in point of time, it is not out of the question. Let me go back and look at your original post.
> 
> Later...... I must be getting punchy. Hillary's name did not appear in your post anywhere.



i was just having a sort of small semi-private joke with sags about dear old 'rents who loved sports. Sorry it was off-topic.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Here is what the sheep are missing with Trump-the economy is a BIG DEAL to Trump-that is how he will sell his results as POTUS-that one thing-contrast that to bubbleheads like Wynne or Trudeau or Obozo or Crooked Hillary-they don't think it important at all as long as they get their money. Trump unlike most is not doing this to make money-he is doing this at the end of his career for his monstrous ego-he actually thinks he can turn the USA into a monster economy like it was 45 years ago-that is really far-fetched but at least he is a guy who focuses on economic results, not artsy fartsy B/S like Wynnebag. I am very surprised people on an investing forum can't see this.




ummm ... were you trying to say something .:frog:



.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I don't think he [donald trump] would make any major mistakes [if elected president], Congress and the cabinet would make sure of that. But it could still be a wild ride.



i beg to disagree. Many have made transparently clear that the commander-in-chief has instant & sole access to the nuclear codes. There is said to be an activation interval of less than four minutes. No congress, no cabinet, no senator will intervene, let alone have time to intervene. The military are sworn to obey & they will obey absolutely.

just five interruptions into the first debate & everyone could see that donald trump is an impulse-ridden two-year-old. He has no knowledge of global politics & not a single inhibition that could restrain him.

even something as simple as spotting a beautiful young woman, donald trump himself boasts that he is unable to stop himself from compulsively kissing her or groping her ...

.


----------



## new dog

Now would be a good time for a summary before the election.

Economy:

Trump would be bad in the very short term but longer term issues may finally be addressed although it would be a very hard road to follow.

Hillary better short term because of less uncertainty, longer term it will go on until everything breaks completely.

On minorities:

Trump would be better as he actually tries to help inner-cities and actually takes action.

Hillary like Obama is the best by far on talk but the action will be zero and minorities will continue to suffer, worse then ever before.

TPP:

Trump hopefully will stand fast and not let this deal hurt America.

Hillary after some lame concession will gleefully sign it and pay back her corporate backers.

Immigration:

Hillary will continue to open the doors and destroy America.

Trump will hold it back and make it better for everyone who is living in the US today.

Criminal stuff:

Trump is well known for whatever he has done and has paid for it in some way. He likes to talk crap and stupid people see this as worse then if a nation falls all around them. 

Hillary is a crook and even the people here that defend her know this. Much has been said on this thread but the bottom line is she had gotten a free ride that no one else could get up to this point. Also numerous people have died around Hillary but on this we don't know her involvement.

The Mainstream Media:

Everyone knows and we can conclude 100 percent that Hillary is supported by them. 

Trump has to fool the media to get the coverage he wants. 

On War:

Trump either decides for himself or actually will listen to advisors about this.

Hillary's corporate backers will decide what Hillary will do when it comes to war. Money and power will be front and centre in all of her decisions.


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> No, that's not it. There is no screaming in this one.
> 
> Perhaps watching a high energy campaign speech confused you. Obama is a highly engaging speaker. He's great on the stump.


As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Often he is very hesitant and slow,trying to pick his words so as to offend no one. He also 
stutters when he is unsure of what to say.Then there is that phony,folksy accent he puts on.Also that joking non-serious attitude is off-putting.

Yesterday in his stump speech in North Carolina he was ranting and seemed almost desperate --'please.please, vote for Hillary,dammit'
Then he quoted the Declaration of Independence---'All men are created equal ' etc etc. What a tired cliche.


----------



## Argonaut

Fox News, the only neutral mainstream media outlet nowadays, has cited that there is an "avalanche" of evidence against Hillary Clinton from the FBI Investigations. This is a combination of both the email and Clinton Foundation cases. The Department of Justice is seeking to block everything, because obviously it is in bed with the Clintons, Obama, and the Democratic Party. There are reports that the FBI offices erupted in cheers when Comey announced the reopening of the email investigation. Regular FBI folks involved in these investigations have leaked info to alt-right sites, and we know this because much of what was leaked has come true or been later verified as accurate. They are leaving crumbs for the alt-right movement to pick up the mantel on further investigation. We see this also with Wikileaks.

Now, let me clarify something when I say the alt-right. The left has tried to take a broad paintbrush to this movement and label it as fringe, deplorable, or racist. But this is a big movement, and it has no leader (except maybe Pepe). You'll find it online in places like The_Donald, 4chan, Breitbart, and ZeroHedge. If one were to generalize, it would be seen as anti-politically correct, anti-establishment, anti-globalist, skeptical of Islam, pro-gay, pro-meme, pro-gun, and pro-having a laugh. It's almost what Libertarianism should be, and not whatever Gary Johnson represents. The demographic definitely slants towards white males age 15-35, which doesn't mean it is a racist thing. These are just a group of people who are tired of hearing that every problem in the world is because of them.

Donald Trump is a great representation for the alt-right because he threatens to take down the festering, corrupt establishment. And he's okay with saying funny stuff while he's doing it. Aside from being a bit of a blusterer, he's not that bad of a guy. No drink, no drugs, hard worker, great family. I hope he wins. Hillary Clinton declared war on a cartoon frog, and is losing that battle.


----------



## Eclectic12

Rusty O'Toole said:


> ... Later...... I must be getting punchy. Hillary's name did not appear in your [HP's] post anywhere.


Usually for me it's either being rushed or a combo of too little sleep with not enough caffeine to counteract it. :eek2:



Cheers


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Now would be a good time for a summary before the election.
> 
> Economy:
> 
> Trump would be bad in the very short term but longer term issues may finally be addressed although it would be a very hard road to follow.
> 
> Hillary better short term because of less uncertainty, longer term it will go on until everything breaks completely.
> 
> On minorities:
> 
> Trump would be better as he actually tries to help inner-cities and actually takes action ...
> 
> Immigration ...
> 
> Criminal stuff ...
> 
> Mainstream Media ...
> 
> On War ...




sorry dog, while i appreciated your effort, the above is not any kind of "summary before the election."

your text comes across to me as an ultra right wing marginalized & blinkered piece of propaganda.

re the economy, how exactly do you understand that trump proposes to handle key issues? all we have heard are generalized promises of success.

re minorities, most believe that these issues are tied to the economy. A prosperous america would see numbers moving upward through the ranks of middle classes, as has happened under prior democratic presidencies.

where are the reputable right wing economists who should be advising donald trump right now? afaik even the university of chicago - long the bastion of libertarian economic theory - has forsaken trump & will either vote democratic or not vote at all.

one could say that all your other issues are also tied to economic success or failure. But an aspiring politician who makes empty promises to unemployed in rust belt cities & to minorities everywhere, meanwhile cleverly fueling their xenophobic anger, comes across as a demagogue.

.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i beg to disagree. Many have made transparently clear that the commander-in-chief has instant & sole access to the nuclear codes. There is said to be an activation interval of less than four minutes. No congress, no cabinet, no senator will intervene, let alone have time to intervene. The military are sworn to obey & they will obey absolutely.
> 
> just five interruptions into the first debate & everyone could see that donald trump is an impulse-ridden two-year-old. He has no knowledge of global politics & not a single inhibition that could restrain him.
> 
> even something as simple as spotting a beautiful young woman, donald trump himself boasts that he is unable to stop himself from compulsively kissing her or groping her ...
> 
> .


You know who is the ideal POTUS for this empty bubblehead? Kathleen Wynne-she won't say the wrong thing and she won't trigger any snowflakes.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> Now would be a good time for a summary before the election.
> 
> Economy:
> 
> Trump would be bad in the very short term but longer term issues may finally be addressed although it would be a very hard road to follow.
> 
> Hillary better short term because of less uncertainty, longer term it will go on until everything breaks completely.
> 
> On minorities:
> 
> Trump would be better as he actually tries to help inner-cities and actually takes action.
> 
> Hillary like Obama is the best by far on talk but the action will be zero and minorities will continue to suffer, worse then ever before.
> 
> TPP:
> 
> Trump hopefully will stand fast and not let this deal hurt America.
> 
> Hillary after some lame concession will gleefully sign it and pay back her corporate backers.
> 
> Immigration:
> 
> Hillary will continue to open the doors and destroy America.
> 
> Trump will hold it back and make it better for everyone who is living in the US today.
> 
> Criminal stuff:
> 
> Trump is well known for whatever he has done and has paid for it in some way. He likes to talk crap and stupid people see this as worse then if a nation falls all around them.
> 
> Hillary is a crook and even the people here that defend her know this. Much has been said on this thread but the bottom line is she had gotten a free ride that no one else could get up to this point. Also numerous people have died around Hillary but on this we don't know her involvement.
> 
> The Mainstream Media:
> 
> Everyone knows and we can conclude 100 percent that Hillary is supported by them.
> 
> Trump has to fool the media to get the coverage he wants.
> 
> On War:
> 
> Trump either decides for himself or actually will listen to advisors about this.
> 
> Hillary's corporate backers will decide what Hillary will do when it comes to war. Money and power will be front and centre in all of her decisions.


Good summation.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> sorry dog, while i appreciated your effort, the above is not any kind of "summary before the election."
> 
> your text comes across to me as an ultra right wing marginalized & blinkered piece of propaganda.
> 
> re the economy, how exactly do you understand that trump proposes to handle key issues? all we have heard are generalized promises of success.
> 
> re minorities, most believe that these issues are tied to the economy. A prosperous america would see numbers moving upward through the ranks of middle classes, as has happened under prior democratic presidencies.
> 
> where are the reputable right wing economists who should be advising donald trump right now? afaik even the university of chicago - long the bastion of libertarian economic theory - has forsaken trump & will either vote democratic or not vote at all.
> 
> one could say that all your other issues are also tied to economic success or failure. But an aspiring politician who makes empty promises to unemployed in rust belt cities & to minorities everywhere, meanwhile cleverly fueling their xenophobic anger, comes across as a demagogue.
> 
> .


Bubblehead Humble wants Kathleen Wynne clones running the planet.


----------



## humble_pie

nelliekins is distwessed because she was left off the short list of rad cool rightwing critics .:biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

.

370 distinguished economists today published a letter that says Donald Trump is too dangerous, too destructive & too dishonest to be able to fix the economy.

_" Three hundred and seventy economists, including eight Nobel Prize winners, co-signed a letter that asserts, ' Donald Trump is a dangerous, destructive choice for the country. He misinforms the electorate, degrades trust in public institutions with conspiracy theories, and promotes willful delusion over engagement with reality.'

" The statement, which was first published by the Wall Street Journal, does not endorse a candidate. Instead it lists 15 points of concern about the Republican presidential nominee. Several criticize Trump for his assertions about supporting manufacturing workers, particularly those in Ohio and Michigan.

" The new letter, signed by economists who won this and last year’s Nobel prizes as well as the chief economist at the World Bank, also questions Trump’s math on how he would eliminate the fiscal deficit while decreasing revenue; says he exaggerates immigration’s negative impact; and laments how 'he repeats fake and misleading economic statistics, and pushes fallacies.' "_


http://time.com/4555032/economists-against-donald-trump/


.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I* predict no matter who wins the election, they will have one of the worst Presidents ever elected and in 10 years nobody will care.*


Probably. One of them will be added to the current "10 worst president's list",bumping someone already on that list.

No matter which one gets elected "by hook or by crook'..I'm predicting that neither one will up for a second term in 5 years. 

Hilliary will be too busy counting her millions tucked away. Trump will go on being Trump.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> .
> 
> 370 distinguished economists today published a letter that says Donald Trump is too dangerous, too destructive & too dishonest to be able to fix the economy.
> 
> _" Three hundred and seventy economists, including eight Nobel Prize winners, co-signed a letter that asserts, ' Donald Trump is a dangerous, destructive choice for the country. He misinforms the electorate, degrades trust in public institutions with conspiracy theories, and promotes willful delusion over engagement with reality.'
> 
> " The statement, which was first published by the Wall Street Journal, does not endorse a candidate. Instead it lists 15 points of concern about the Republican presidential nominee. Several criticize Trump for his assertions about supporting manufacturing workers, particularly those in Ohio and Michigan.
> 
> " The new letter, signed by economists who won this and last year’s Nobel prizes as well as the chief economist at the World Bank, also questions Trump’s math on how he would eliminate the fiscal deficit while decreasing revenue; says he exaggerates immigration’s negative impact; and laments how 'he repeats fake and misleading economic statistics, and pushes fallacies.' "_
> 
> 
> http://time.com/4555032/economists-against-donald-trump/
> 
> 
> .


Summary: Krugman and the other stupid sheep hate Donald Trump-actually they hate anyone their owners tell them to hate.


----------



## Nelley

Great TV commercial about Crooked Hillary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-n102EAYPA&feature=youtu.be


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> Fox News, the only neutral mainstream media outlet nowadays, has cited that there is an "avalanche" of evidence against Hillary Clinton from the FBI Investigations. This is a combination of both the email and Clinton Foundation cases. The Department of Justice is seeking to block everything, because obviously it is in bed with the Clintons, Obama, and the Democratic Party. There are reports that the FBI offices erupted in cheers when Comey announced the reopening of the email investigation. Regular FBI folks involved in these investigations have leaked info to alt-right sites, and we know this because much of what was leaked has come true or been later verified as accurate. They are leaving crumbs for the alt-right movement to pick up the mantel on further investigation.



i thought we went through this already? fox news is not neutral mainstream media, it's hardline rightwing.

in your same facebook video, fox anchor bret baier talked about "a lot" of leaked details & he also talked about "an avalanche" of leaked details. Both are still nothing but hearsay & rumour. Argo you can make up any story you want about how the Eff Bee Eye erupted into cheers over the weiner e-mail trove & how they contacted you personally to tell you all about the crumbs they are planning to leave on mantels. But i for one am not prepared to believe rumours with the childlike faith you are displaying.

good journos & editors are hard-nosed enough to search for the facts. Nothing will be known about the weiner e-mails until the FBI makes a formal announcement. In the meantime, mob-fed yobs can work themselves into frenzies with leak conspiracies, if they have the time & the inclination.





> let me clarify something when I say the alt-right ... The demographic definitely slants towards white males age 15-35, which doesn't mean it is a racist thing. These are just a group of people who are tired of hearing that every problem in the world is because of them.


sorry but i'd disagree with this. Most of the alt-right in north america, england & europe appear to be much older persons. Not necessarily males either. They're the persons who support trump, who voted brexit, who support pegida, le Pen & other neo krypto parties in europe.


.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> i thought we went through this already? fox news is not neutral mainstream media, it's hardline rightwing.
> 
> in your same facebook video, fox anchor bret baier talked about "a lot" of leaked details & he also talked about "an avalanche" of leaked details. Both are still nothing but hearsay & rumour. Argo you can make up any story you want about how the Eff Bee Eye erupted into cheers over the weiner e-mail trove & how they contacted you personally to tell you all about the crumbs they are planning to leave on mantels. But i for one am not prepared to believe rumours with the childlike faith you are displaying.
> 
> good journos & editors are hard-nosed enough to search for the facts. Nothing will be known about the weiner e-mails until the FBI makes a formal announcement. In the meantime, mob-fed yobs can work themselves into frenzies with leak conspiracies, if they have the time & the inclination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorry but i'd disagree with this. Most of the alt-right in north america, england & europe appear to be much older persons. Not necessarily males either. They're the persons who support trump, who voted brexit, who support pegida, le Pen & other neo krypto parties in europe.
> 
> 
> .


Conspiracies-says the sheep who blames everything on Putin because the MSM tells her it is so.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump is a bad one all right. If you attack him, he defends himself. In typical New York fashion he can be loud and abrasive especially if he feels someone is trying to push him around. Watching the debate, every time he shot his mouth off it was in response to a nasty crack from Hillary. I agree it is not in Roberts Rules of Order but that is the way he is.

On the other hand he has a long history of planning and carrying out successful business deals, sometimes waiting for years for the right opportunity to fall into his hands. One example is a hotel in California he was bidding on, which was bought by Merv Griffin. The news hawks were all "Nyah nyah, you got beat by Merv Griffin". They wanted to egg him into a bidding war. His response was "no I didn't. I bid what the property was worth, he bid too much. I didn't lose anything. I wish him the best of luck, but I don't see how he can spend that much on the place and make it profitable". In the end he was right. A few years later Merv begged him to take it off his hands for less than half what he paid for it. This was not an isolated incident. Trump did the same thing with at least 2 of the casinos he bought, and his father bought many apartment houses the same way. When others are losing their heads and caught up in a boom the Trumps are saving their money. When the boom inevitably goes bust the Trumps have piles of cash to snap up the bargains and the nerve to buy when everyone else is in a panic.

These are not the actions of an impulsive person. Someone does not suddenly change the habits of a lifetime at 70. I am afraid you have been taken in by the spin from the media.


----------



## sags

Electing Donald Trump President would be as prudent as giving the owner of a female beauty pageant open access to their dressing room while they are disrobed.

Oh wait.............


----------



## sags

Trump has toned down his moronic episodes lately, but they are only hidden from view temporarily....not permanently purged. 

They will return. You can count on it. People like Donald Trump don't change at 70 years of age.

With Donald Trump............what you see is what you get.


----------



## Argonaut

humble_pie said:


> sorry but i'd disagree with this. Most of the alt-right in north america, england & europe appear to be much older persons. Not necessarily males either. They're the persons who support trump, who voted brexit, who support pegida, le Pen & other neo krypto parties in europe.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right

The alt-right is as I say it is, an online movement that loves joking around and is anti-establishment. That the other forces of conservatism are converging with it and moving away from neo-conservatism is just a general trend. You are right that the alt-right is pro-Brexit, but that doesn't mean other groups that are pro-Brexit are alt-right. I don't think a "older persons" demographic as you say are the ones combing through Wikileaks emails on 4chan.

Fox News is more balanced than any of the other mainstream outlets. Megyn Kelly criticizes Trump often, and establishment conservatism still has a hold on some of their programming. CNN and MSNBC are pretending Clinton's scandals don't exist as we approach November 8th. Investigative journalism is dead in the mainstream, and left to the brave souls who praise kek.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Electing Donald Trump President would be as prudent as giving the owner of a female beauty pageant open access to their dressing room while they are disrobed.
> 
> Oh wait.............


Electing Hillary would be the same as letting a crooked politician accept bribes to sell access to the US government.

Oh wait.....


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Watching the debate, every time he shot his mouth off it was in response to a nasty crack from Hillary.



sorry, have to disagree totally because that's not what i saw. In the first debate trump was foaming at the mouth to attack, threaten & insult hillary. She couldn't get a word in before he'd leap to interrupt. He even interrupted & fought repeatedly with the moderators.

it was hillary who kept trying, during that first debate, to introduce issues that actually matter to the nation. The response? another personal threat. If i'm elected president i'll put you in jail, the orange-skinned candidate taunted. Jabbing that trademark right index finger in the air like a dagger.





> On the other hand he has a long history of planning and carrying out successful business deals, sometimes waiting for years for the right opportunity to fall into his hands. One example is a hotel in California he was bidding on ... When others are losing their heads and caught up in a boom the Trumps are saving their money. When the boom inevitably goes bust the Trumps have piles of cash to snap up the bargains and the nerve to buy when everyone else is in a panic.




i'm not a student of trump trivia but how come we keep hearing how he's gone bankrupt twice? how his wealth is ephemeral because it's engulfed by debt? how he's only considered a rich boy now because he inherited everything from Daddy? how he can't show his tax returns because they'd reveal too much funny stuff to the american people?


i'm sticking to my knitting. Trump is an impulse-ridden psychopath. He's not fit to be president of any country, certainly not the United States.


.


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right
> 
> The alt-right is as I say it is, an online movement that loves joking around and is anti-establishment.



ja mein fuhrer

so alt-right is just a collection of jolly boys playing robin hood? which character is playing donald trump then? the fat inn-keeper running the bordello on the outskirts of the village?

.


----------



## sags

Ted Cruz is stumping for Trump but refuses to say his name.

Cruz says..........vote for "whats his name."


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Does the list of distinguished economists include the two Nobel Prize winners who blew up Long Term Capital Management and almost destroyed the bond market in 1998? Or the ones who planned Greece's economy, or Cyprus? Are the geniuses who modernized the mortgage market in the early 2000s represented? How about the ones who think doubling the national debt every 8 years isn't going into debt fast enough? OK never mind that, let's go to headquarters and get the absolute facts.

There is 1 page of letters and 9 pages of signatures. If you want to see for yourself here is the link.http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/EconomistLetter11012016.pdf

And here is the letter. 

We, the undersigned economists, represent a broad variety of areas of expertise and
are united in 
our opposition to Donald Trump. We recommend that voters choose a different candidate on the 
following grounds:

He degrades trust in vital public institutions that collect and disseminate information 
about the economy, such as the Bureau of Labor Statistics, by spreading disinformation 
about the integrity of their work.

He has mi
sled voters in states like Ohio and Michigan by asserting that the renegotiation 
of NAFTA or the imposition of tariffs on China would substantially increase employment 
in manufacturing. In fact, manufacturing’s share of employment has been declining since 
the 1970s and is mostly related to automation, not trade.

He claims to champion former manufacturing workers, but has no plan to assist their 
transition to well
-
compensated service sector positions.
Instead, he has diverted the 
policy discussion to optio
ns that ignore both the reality of technological progress and the 
benefits of international trade.

He has misled the public by asserting that U.S. manufacturing has declined. The location 
and product composition of manufacturing has changed, but the leve
l of output has more 
than doubled in the U.S. since the 1980s.

He has falsely suggested that trade is zero
-
sum and
that the “toughness” of negotiators 
primarily drives trade deficits.

He has misled the public with false statements about trade agreement
s eroding national 
income and wealth. Although the gains have not been equally distributed
—
and this is an 
important discussion in itself
—
both mean income and mean wealth 
have
risen
substantially in the U.S. since the 1980s.

He has lowered the seriousnes
s of the national dialogue by suggesting that the 
elimination of the Environmental Protection Agency or the Department of Education 
would significantly reduce the fiscal deficit. A credible solution will require an increase 
in tax revenue and/or a reductio
n in spending on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, or 
Defense.

He claims he will eliminate the fiscal deficit, but has proposed a plan that would decrease 
tax revenue by $2.6 to $5.9 trillion over the next decade according to the non
-
partisan 
Tax Foun
dation.

He claims that he will reduce the trade deficit, but has proposed a reduction in public 
saving that is likely to increase it.

He uses immigration as a red herring to mislead voters about issues of economic 
importance, such as the stagnation of 
wages for households with low levels of education. 
Several forces are responsible for this, but immigration appears to play only a modest 
role. Focusing the dialogue on this channel, rather than more substantive channels, such 
as automation, diverts the pu
blic debate to unproductive policy options.

He has misled the electorate by asserting that the U.S. is one of the most heavily taxed 
countries. While the U.S. has a high top statutory corporate tax rate, the average effective 
rate is much lower, and taxe
s on income and consumption are relatively low. Overall, the 
U.S. has one of the lowest ratios of tax revenue to GDP in the OECD.

His statements reveal a deep ignorance of economics and an inability to listen to credible 
experts. He repeats fake and misl
eading economic statistics, and pushes fallacies about 
the VAT and trade competitiveness. 

He promotes magical thinking and conspiracy theories over sober assessments of feasible 
economic policy options.
Donald Trump is a dangerous, destructive choice f
or the country. He misinforms the electorate, 
degrades trust in public institutions with conspiracy theories, and promotes willful delusion over 
engagement with reality. If elected, he poses a unique danger to the functioning of democratic 
and economic ins
titutions, and to the prosperity of the country. For these reasons, we strongly 
recommend that you do not vote for Donald Trump.
Signed,


----------



## bass player

Of course, nothing has been proven yet, but here is another perspective on Weiner's computer and why there may be so many emails on it:

"Fox News is now reporting that Anthony Weiner is not only cooperating with the FBI, but gave the laptop in question–there may be more electronic devices than that–to the FBI, giving them permission to search it. *The Clinton camp is trying to distance themselves from that laptop, claiming it belongs to Wiener and Huma Abedin–who is in hiding–“rarely” used it and has no idea what might be on it. *Clinton Campaign Manager Robby Mook, on Fox News Sunday, claimed Clinton–and by implication, no one else in the campaign–has asked Abedin what might be on the laptop.

*This raises another very interesting possibility. *If we take the Clinton claim that Abedin rarely used that laptop and has no idea what’s on it, wouldn’t it be interesting if Wiener has been saving all the classified information Abedin brought home, as well as all the incriminating information she brought home on other devices, and saving it for a rainy day? *Seeing his marriage, and hence all possible political protection, evaporating, might not a man of Wiener’s lack of integrity seek something hot to trade for avoiding prison?*

https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpr...linton-e-mail-investigation-it-is-aliiiiiive/


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Does the list of distinguished economists include the two Nobel Prize winners who blew up Long Term Capital Management and almost destroyed the bond market in 1998?
> 
> There is 1 page of letters and 9 pages of signatures. If you want to see for yourself here is the link.
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/EconomistLetter11012016.pdf
> 
> And here is the letter ...




re your question whether the list includes 2 hedge fund managers who blew up Long Term Capital?

me i'd thought there was only one, namely Myron Scholes. Scholes the creator of Black/Merton/Scholes option theory.

no the list does not include myron scholes.


as for the economists' letter, it's a great letter. Could you not have taken the trouble to close the broken fragments that resulted from copy/paste though.


it's a waste of time sneering at the boycott of donald trump by american economists. The issue is extremely grave. It means that trump lacks economic advisors. It means he cannot create an economic policy. All he can do is try to pacify economically disenfranchised communities - older workers, minorities, immigrants - with hollow promises that somehow he hopes to be able to give them jobs, money & prosperity.


.


----------



## Argonaut

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Economists: His statements reveal a deep ignorance of economics and an inability to listen to credible
> experts.


I think economists reveal a deep ignorance of economics. Are these the same economists who are running policy these days? Promoting negative interest rates that are designed to encourage spending but instead encourage distrust of the financial system? Promote stimulus that does nothing but pump up isolated bubbles in real estate, bonds, and stocks? 

Economists have totally failed in the last decade, I don't trust anything they say. Throw Trump in there as a gamble and see what happens.


----------



## Nelley

Check this out-the Sick Puppet goes to Winterville NC and keeps calling it Greenville http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/11/oopsis-hillary-goes-winterville-nc-keeps-calling-greenville/


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"He degrades trust in vital public institutions that collect and disseminate information
about the economy, such as the Bureau of Labor Statistics, by spreading disinformation
about the integrity of their work."

That is hardly Trump's fault. Everyone knows government statistics are manipulated for political purposes. The BLS is famous for publishing monthly statistics showing the economy is growing and doing fine. Then quietly revising the statistics downward 2 or 3 weeks later. So the next month they can show that the economy is growing and doing fine, as the new figures are higher than the revised figures. Then the new figures get revised downward in turn.

They keep changing the way things like inflation are calculated. If statistics were calculated the same way they were in the 80s we would have 10% or 12% inflation instead of 2%. But then inflation indexed pensions etc would go up, and they don't want that. Too bad for granny, she will have to subsist on a cheaper brand of cat food.

"He has mi
sled voters in states like Ohio and Michigan by asserting that the renegotiation
of NAFTA or the imposition of tariffs on China would substantially increase employment
in manufacturing. In fact, manufacturing’s share of employment has been declining since
the 1970s and is mostly related to automation, not trade."

This is disingenuous.While it is true automation is a factor other countries like Germany have not lost their manufacturing base. They merely replaced old, smoky, obsolete factories with new, clean, shiny automated factories. They may not need as many workers but the workers they have are trained technicians working with the best tools in the best conditions. They earn more money and have better working conditions, and the money paid for the goods they make stays in the country. They didn't send the jobs and factories overseas, and they don't send billions overseas every year buying goods they could make at home.

"He claims to champion former manufacturing workers, but has no plan to assist their
transition to well
-
compensated service sector positions.
Instead, he has diverted the
policy discussion to optio
ns that ignore both the reality of technological progress and the
benefits of international trade."

This is what our politicians, economists and business leaders promised us in the 80s. We are still waiting.

"He has misled the public by asserting that U.S. manufacturing has declined. The location
and product composition of manufacturing has changed, but the leve
l of output has more
than doubled in the U.S. since the 1980s."

Manufacturing jobs have declined. Whether total output has declined, and how it is calculated, I don't know.

"He has falsely suggested that trade is zero
-
sum and
that the “toughness” of negotiators
primarily drives trade deficits."

This is twisting what he actually said. 

"He has misled the public with false statements about trade agreement
s eroding national
income and wealth. Although the gains have not been equally distributed
—
and this is an
important discussion in itself
—
both mean income and mean wealth
have
risen
substantially in the U.S. since the 1980s."

Income and wealth have risen but it all went to the richest 10%. The working class and middle class are worse off now than they were in 1980. Not been equally distributed, and how. This is what happens when you outsource production and turn $25 an hour union laborers into part time minimum wage serfs, and dismiss the managers and engineers. The big business executives and bankers multiply their income and everyone else suffers. I wonder who they think will buy their goods when everyone runs out of money and credit.

"He has lowered the seriousnes
s of the national dialogue by suggesting that the
elimination of the Environmental Protection Agency or the Department of Education
would significantly reduce the fiscal deficit. A credible solution will require an increase
in tax revenue and/or a reductio
n in spending on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, or
Defense."

I have to give them this one. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Defense are much bigger problems.

"He claims he will eliminate the fiscal deficit, but has proposed a plan that would decrease
tax revenue by $2.6 to $5.9 trillion over the next decade according to the non
-
partisan
Tax Foun
dation."

I'm leery of Trump's plan on this one too. He seems to be using the typical politician's trick of assuming his new policies will result in such a boom that tax revenues will jump on their own.

"He claims that he will reduce the trade deficit, but has proposed a reduction in public
saving that is likely to increase it."

Not sure what they mean by this. Sounds like what they (government and economists) have been doing for the last 8 years. By lowering interest rates to 0 they hoped to kill saving, encourage debt, and stimulate the economy. Apparently it never worked because they say we still need more stimulus.

"He uses immigration as a red herring to mislead voters about issues of economic
importance, such as the stagnation of
wages for households with low levels of education.
Several forces are responsible for this, but immigration appears to play only a modest
role. Focusing the dialogue on this channel, rather than more substantive channels, such
as automation, diverts the pu
blic debate to unproductive policy options."

If you run a business that uses cheap labor immigration is great. If you are one of the people who loses his job not so great. The economists seem to be aligned with the first group.

"He has misled the electorate by asserting that the U.S. is one of the most heavily taxed
countries. While the U.S. has a high top statutory corporate tax rate, the average effective
rate is much lower, and taxe
s on income and consumption are relatively low. Overall, the
U.S. has one of the lowest ratios of tax revenue to GDP in the OECD."

This does not square with any statistics I have seen. 

"His statements reveal a deep ignorance of economics and an inability to listen to credible
experts. He repeats fake and misl
eading economic statistics, and pushes fallacies about
the VAT and trade competitiveness. "

Like a politician

"He promotes magical thinking and conspiracy theories over sober assessments of feasible
economic policy options."

Like an economist

"Donald Trump is a dangerous, destructive choice f
or the country. He misinforms the electorate,
degrades trust in public institutions with conspiracy theories, and promotes willful delusion over
engagement with reality. If elected, he poses a unique danger to the functioning of democratic
and economic ins
titutions, and to the prosperity of the country. For these reasons, we strongly
recommend that you do not vote for Donald Trump."

Blah blah blah. Boilerplate that could have been taken off any "unbiased" news site that shills for the Democrats. It is obvious this letter is politically motivated, it is not motivated by economics at all. Maybe they fear they will get raises from Hillary, pink slips from Trump. He has been a businessman too long. He sees through their bullshit. Meanwhile politicians love them and nurture them, as long as they come up with the answers they want.

By the way that last bit sounds like a description of any typical politician or government economist.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Of course, nothing has been proven yet, but here is another perspective on Weiner's computer and why there may be so many emails on it ...



oh for crying out loud. Does your whole life consist of nothing but festering vicariously in other people's soap operas?

why not wait patiently, with an open mind, for whatever the FBI is going to report? keep in mind that they will never be able to get away with lies, at least not for long, so the truth is going to emerge fairly soon.

keep in mind also that mister weiner might be one of those oddballs who has kept all of his e-mails all of his life. I have a couple friends like that ... they seem to take pride in the fact that they've organized their lifetime collection of e-mails into file folders ...

650,000 e-mails across 20 or 30 years is normal traffic for a busy politician. Perhaps 60-90 e-mails per day. Weiner used to be a busy politician, once upon a time.

.


----------



## Nelley

Things aren't looking good for Sick Crooked Hillary-life in prison is the worst case scenario https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLAe3UeddUI


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> Throw Trump in there as a gamble and see what happens.



ok you did tell us that alt-right means young males age 15-35 who like to joke around

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I Googled "number of economists in the US" and got the number 21,500 but that is just the ones who have jobs. Nevertheless, it seems Trump won't have any trouble finding one even if the 370 refuse his job offers.

370 economists represents 1.72% of the economists in the US.

Members of LTCM's board of directors included Myron S. Scholes and Robert C. Merton, who shared the 1997 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for a "new method to determine the value of derivatives".[3] Initially successful with annualized return of over 21% (after fees) in its first year, 43% in the second year and 41% in the third year, in 1998 it lost $4.6 billion in less than four months following the 1997 Asian financial crisis and 1998 Russian financial crisis requiring financial intervention by the Federal Reserve, with the fund liquidating and dissolving in early 2000.

Courtesy of Wikipedia.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I Googled "number of economists in the US" and got the number 21,500 but that is just the ones who have jobs. Nevertheless, it seems Trump won't have any trouble finding one even if the 370 refuse his job offers.



the question is, How come donald trump hasn't found any serious economists yet, though. I mean, it's late in the game. Election in 5 days. Voting already underway.

what exactly is trump's economic policy? where are his economic advisors?

running the federal reserve system is not an affair that one stubs in hastily with a washable felt marker upon a dinner napkin. Or upon a piece of lingerie in the bedroom.


.


----------



## olivaw

Of course Trump would be able to hire an economist. The problem is, he won't listen to a first rate economist, He'd end up with second and third-rate yes men. (and yes-women)

ETA: Humble is right. No self respecting economist wanted to be associated with Trump's campaign. His own son-in-law won't allow his newspaper to be associated with the Trump campaign. None of the senior military people want to be associated with him. Most members of his own party can't even bring themselves to say his name.


----------



## humble_pie

^^

olivaw i disagree. What economist would work for him. Rats don't board a sinking ship.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> the question is, How come donald trump hasn't found any serious economists yet, though. I mean, it's late in the game. Election in 5 days. Voting already underway.
> 
> what exactly is trump's economic policy? where are his economic advisors?
> 
> running the federal reserve system is not an affair that one stubs in hastily with a washable felt marker upon a dinner napkin. Or upon a piece of lingerie in the bedroom.
> 
> 
> .


I agree completely. I keep going back to a comment made by Gary Hart, after Hunter Thompson asked him what candidate he favored for President. His reply was something like this."The first thing I want to know is what is his domestic policy? What is his foreign policy? It took me ten years of work and study to figure those things out, and they are absolutely key to any politician's fitness to be President".

If he wins he only has until January to find one.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> Of course Trump would be able to hire an economist. The problem is, he won't listen to a first rate economist, He'd end up with second and third-rate yes men. (and yes-women)
> 
> ETA: Humble is right. No self respecting economist wanted to be associated with Trump's campaign. His own son-in-law won't allow his newspaper to be associated with the Trump campaign. None of the senior military people want to be associated with him. Most members of his own party can't even bring themselves to say his name.


Olivaw I must disagree. Trump has a history of hiring the best regardless of cost and listening to them. He owes more of his success to other people than he lets on.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Members of LTCM's board of directors included Myron S. Scholes and Robert C. Merton, who shared the 1997 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for a "new method to determine the value of derivatives".
> 
> Courtesy of Wikipedia.




yes these are the scholes & the merton of black/merton/scholes option theory fame.

Rusty did i ever tell you that when i interned briefly in a CBOE firm as a young intern business scribe in the 1980s, it was O'Connor & Associates? if i'd known how famous they really were, i would have paid more attention.

myron scholes was a prof at the U of chicago at that time. He was a minority partner in o'connor associates. The principal owners were the 2 o'connor brothers, who'd made a fortune in commodities trading & who'd founded the CBOE in 1973. The movie Trading Places was based on the o'connor brothers story. The younger brother - he always wore green herringbone tweed suits, like a leprechaun - used to drop in every few days. He'd look up soybean prices, stuff like that.

we were physically extremely crowded, not because the firm was too cheap to rent more space but because the board of trade building - which housed the CBOE - had no more space to rent to us or to anybody else. I was the low gopher in research, which was housed in a tiny cupboard just off the main trading room.

we were only inches away from Michael Greenbaum, a mathematician who'd cleared for o'connor grains & who was the brains in the business. It was michael greenbaum who disproved black/scholes & paved the way for the more comprehensive binomial option theory.

it was all advanced algebra. Apart from grasping a sliver or two about TV, i never understood much. Michael himself was loud, noisy, rude, hyper-aggressive, but for some reason incredibly kind & polite to me, the sole canadian in the room. Occasionally he'd sit down beside & try to make me understand how to play wi's - when-issued stock, before it would be issued. Including the risk that it might not be issued.

.


----------



## TomB19

I hope this thread makes 500 pages.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I hope this thread makes 500 pages.


It could make 5000 pages-just have Crooked Hillary win this thing and the remaining honest FBI agents and NYPD cops refuse to let this thing get swept under the rug-maybe they could build a special Hannibal Lechter type of plexiglass cage around the oval office for the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet to govern from.


----------



## olivaw

^So if Hilary wins, Nelley is gong to post 4500 pages of anti-Hillary rants? Hope he (or she) gets some new material. We've all heard the old song and dance.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> ^^
> 
> olivaw i disagree. What economist would work for him. Rats don't board a sinking ship.


The ship sinking no matter who becomes president. The election is more about change and hoping America can come out on the other side. Hillary represents corruption and more of the same with the economy going down. Trump represents change and a chance to take back the government for the people while the economy goes down. Trump may be a disaster but he could clean up the corruption that Hillary represents and send the country back to the people.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> ^So if Hilary wins, Nelley is gong to post 4500 pages of anti-Hillary rants? Hope he (or she) gets some new material. We've all heard the old song and dance.


Here is the deal- if she wins she will be the grifter Formerly Known as the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet-I will come up with a brand new fitting moniker for this demon. If she loses she remains the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Olivaw I must disagree. Trump has a history of hiring the best regardless of cost and listening to them. He owes more of his success to other people than he lets on.



I haven't heard that before Rusty. I hear that he can hire decent enough people but word before this election was that he ruled with an iron fist. It may not translate well to government.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Olivaw did you ever watch The Apprentice? Did you ever notice the little old gray haired guy who stood behind Trump's chair? That was George Ross. He was the best, and highest paid real estate attorney in New York City when Trump met him in the early 70s. Trump hired him even though he didn't have much money at the time and there were plenty of cheaper lawyers. It was a smart move, I am sure Ross helped him make deals he never would have got a sniff at, as a young unknown investor.

There is an old saying that first rate people hire first rate people. Second rate people hire third rate people. Trump is smart enough to hire first rate people and let them do their job. There are many other examples, like the Wollman rink.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._Ross

See also Trump Strategies For Real Estate by George Ross and Trump Style Negotiation.


----------



## olivaw

^My wife and I watched the Apprentice in the early seasons. George was great.


----------



## mordko

> I am sure Ross helped him make deals he never would have got a sniff at, as a young unknown investor.


You seem to think he started poor. That's just not true. It helps to make deals when you are waving wads of money to start with. Trump was born into a fortune. Up until 90s his dad was running the business. Then Donald managed to screw up big time and incur huge losses during a time of boom in real estate. Then his children took over and kept the business going while he switched to reality TV shows.


----------



## sags

Trump also lost a lot of money in the casino business, where people basically throw money at you.

I would guess the only way to lose money in a casino is to spend more than you are raking in, which is basically what the government already does.

I wouldn't look to Trump to be a deficit buster.


----------



## TomB19

Hillary is still the Nate Silver favourite, at 66% odds. Maybe the FBI should announce they are investigating Hillary Clinton as the covert leader of ISIS? ... or fabricate a couple of murder plots.

Does anyone here think James Comey will keep his job, if Hillary wins? Anyone?


----------



## new dog

There is a lot of dead people all around Hillary so you could possible uncover a dozen murder plots.

On ISIS it is possible Hillary was involved in helping them in order to provide opposition to Assad.

Her hands are dirty almost everywhere but like a good mob boss she keeps her distance from what needs to be done.


----------



## olivaw

The FBI should threaten to investigate Nate Silver unless he agrees to give Trump 110%


----------



## new dog

I like this article on zero hedge on what does it take to bring Hillary to justice. It has everything, including George Soros, who has a huge fan following here on the forum.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-03/what-does-it-take-bring-hillary-clinton-justice


----------



## mrPPincer

new dog said:


> There is a lot of dead people all around Hillary so you could possible uncover a dozen murder plots.
> 
> On ISIS it is possible Hillary was involved in helping them in order to provide opposition to Assad.
> 
> Her hands are dirty almost everywhere but *like a good mob boss* she keeps her distance from what needs to be done.


*Hell yeah!*


----------



## TomB19

new dog said:


> There is a lot of dead people all around Hillary so you could possible uncover a dozen murder plots.


I'm sure Nelley will tell us about dozens before we get to the next page. I look forward to it.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> The FBI should threaten to investigate Nate Silver unless he agrees to give Trump 110%


Nate Silver is rigged.


----------



## mordko

new dog said:


> I like this article on zero hedge on what does it take to bring Hillary to justice. It has everything, including George Soros, who has a huge fan following here on the forum.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-03/what-does-it-take-bring-hillary-clinton-justice


Well, it would. Most Antisemitic conspiracy sites do have everything, including George Soros. I also note that you are promoting state propaganda from RT, aka Putins authoritarian regime's lies for utter morons.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mordko said:


> You seem to think he started poor. That's just not true. It helps to make deals when you are waving wads of money to start with. Trump was born into a fortune. Up until 90s his dad was running the business. Then Donald managed to screw up big time and incur huge losses during a time of boom in real estate. Then his children took over and kept the business going while he switched to reality TV shows.


You seem to think you can just stroll into the offices of a major corporation and make a multi million dollar deal. Donald Trump's business was separate from his father's. He describes how he worked for his father, and partnered on a deal or 2 when he started, but he wanted to operate in Manhattan where his father never went. He also describes as a young unknown, he had to struggle to build up a reputation before he could go into a major bank and get financing for a multi million dollar deal, or go into the offices of a major corporation to buy or sell property. His father's name helped but his father's name didn't mean much outside of Queens. George Ross had been a real estate lawyer by that time for more than 10 years and had participated in deals for some of the biggest operators in the city. He was well known in legal, banking and real estate circles and his endorsement meant a lot.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> I like this article on zero hedge on what does it take to bring Hillary to justice. It has everything, including George Soros, who has a huge fan following here on the forum.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-03/what-does-it-take-bring-hillary-clinton-justice


Zero hedge is a garbage site.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> Trump also lost a lot of money in the casino business, where people basically throw money at you.
> 
> I would guess the only way to lose money in a casino is to spend more than you are raking in, which is basically what the government already does.
> 
> I wouldn't look to Trump to be a deficit buster.


Five of the 12 casinos in Atlantic City have closed since 2014 and the rest are in trouble. Some say half the ones left will close in the next 2 years. Carl Icahn says he lost $100 million in just 18 months since he took over the Trump Taj Mahal which closed after Labor Day. Lots of big, smart operators have lost huge sums investing in Atlantic City casinos.

Trump made a lot of money in Atlantic City between the late 80s and 2009. Then he got out. He has not owned a casino or part of one, in 7 years.

Trump has 500 companies of which 4 have gone bankrupt. Not a bad batting average.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Nate Silver is rigged.


University of Virginia too. Somebody should call the FBI.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> Zero hedge is a garbage site.


We had an old house with a box hedge. The thing got completely out of control. We could barely see the street.

We could have taken care of it but Hillary swiped our trimmer.


----------



## olivaw

^haha. Best one liner of the day.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump has 500 companies of which 4 have gone bankrupt. Not a bad batting average.


That sounds like a bullshit stat. Is this info courtesy of Trump, the pathological liar?


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> Zero hedge is a garbage site.


The way I see it is Zero hedge is as good as the main stream media. So every time you look to the mainstream then you can look the same at zerohedge. So if every MSM and CNN story seems true then the equal amount of Zerohedge will be true. So if Zero is garbage then so is everything you look at.


----------



## mrPPincer

new dog said:


> The way I see it is Zero hedge is as good as the main stream media. So every time you look to the mainstream then you can look the same at zerohedge. So if every MSM and CNN story seems true then the equal amount of Zerohedge will be true. So if Zero is garbage then so is everything you look at.


Except that everything we look at is not MSM and Zerohedge; some of us don't seek out any of that crap, aside from clicking on the odd random links from avid-foaming-at-the-mouth __x__ supporters.


----------



## mrPPincer

Also, it's an absolute laugh that you clowns use the term MSM.. 

Don't you realise that only people that watch MSM even know what that term means? dumasses. I had to google it.


----------



## new dog

Mrpprincer glad to see you are a believer in everything you hear on the mainstream media. You are a certified sheep as some say here so you have that going for you. So just to recap Clinton is an angel and Trump is bad. It is that simple isn't it.


----------



## mrPPincer

new dog said:


> Mrpprincer glad to see you are a believer in everything you hear on the mainstream media. You are a certified sheep as some say here so you have that going for you. So just to recap Clinton is an angel and Trump is bad. It is that simple isn't it.


 that the best you got ?


----------



## mrPPincer

I've checked and found the debunk to numerous false claims on this thread already, so credibility on the right is running *real* low in my books atm


----------



## olivaw

The term MSM is used by conspiracy theorists to derisively refer to professional news organizations (the mainstream media). I had never seen the initials used until I followed a link on this forum that took me to what appeared to be Russia media. (RT.com). It has a section about MSM.

Zerohedge is a nasty conspiracy site. It peddles Russian propaganda and supports Syria's Bashar al-Assad.


----------



## atrp2biz

ZH is the Onion of financial news. I admit I do read it for its entertainment value. It does make me feel better when my short deltas get crushed in a day of panic buying. 

Everything is awesome!


----------



## humble_pie

they are right upthread about the box trimmer

the Eff Bee Eye razed zero's hedge down to the roots so they could sit in the house they'd rented diagonally across the street & stare into his basement & his living room & his backyard night & day

did you hear about the audio they're picking up
goes all the way to cheyenne mountain


.


----------



## wraphter

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump has 500 companies of which 4 have gone bankrupt. Not a bad batting average.


Trump has not 4 but 6 bankruptcies

The market has already had a string of down days attributable to Trump.
We already have lost money because of him.
Thanks you Trump fanboys.

How many of those 500 have failed without going bankrupt?


----------



## sags

In the latest US jobs report......unemployment ticked down a notch to 4.9%. Wages climbed 2.8% and GDP is positive.

The US economy is chugging ahead slowly, while the Canadian economy looks like it is heading for trouble.

When President Obama took office, the unemployment rate was 10%, wages were stagnant or falling and GDP was negative.

Millions of Americans were losing their homes, and the economy was in a recession.

Republicans say the Obama presidency was a disaster but the before/after comparison of facts reveals why he so popular among Americans.

Obama did bring about hope and change after all............and a lot of it.

Hillary Clinton will carry on the Obama legacy. Trump would tear it all down.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/04/news/economy/us-october-jobs-report/index.html


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump has 500 companies of which 4 have gone bankrupt. Not a bad batting average.



evidently there are more than 4 bankruptcies, look in google.

they say that of the 500 companies, many are dormant shells that trump knows nothing about. IDK how many companies are actively carrying on business. 

.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> The way I see it is Zero hedge is as good as the main stream media. So every time you look to the mainstream then you can look the same at zerohedge. So if every MSM and CNN story seems true then the equal amount of Zerohedge will be true. So if Zero is garbage then so is everything you look at.



sure
& 1 + 1 = 13

dog big mainstream media like the ny times & the globe & mail have editors, copy editors, fact checkers, editorial writers, photo editors, proofreaders, all combing over every word & picture before they are published. Experienced journos have all been well trained to report verbatim, to check & double-check their stories for accuracy before filing.

tiny alternative sites like zerohedge, breitbart, ezra levant's the rebel, are nothing but collections of opinion. They don't have anybody checking anything. Each crackbar statement appears to be as valid as the next. They are yellow journalism, the opposite of the objective professional reportage we always relied upon in the past.

alternatives are sprouting with the internet though, since anybody can self-publish. We've already reached a state of ignorant mob rule.

dogcom in your case you seem to be agog with enthusiasm for russia. I'm left wondering why you don't read the actual russian state english-language propaganda machines instead of weak derivatives like zerohedge.

moscow spends a lot of rubles creating propaganda websites like www.rt.com. IMHO the quality is very high - for a state propaganda machine, that is.

at RT dot com you will find the original version of the views that eventually slop into weak copycat pablum at derivative sites like zerohedge. At RT you will likely find better writing, better photographs, more extensive coverage, altogether a better deal for a bloke who wants to know what russia is thinking.

me i am always happy to find sergei lavrov quoted or writing on RT dot com. The russian foreign minister is interesting & thoughtful in his own right, although his light often gets sat upon by his boss.

dog if you try rt.com you should bring along a big dose of salt ...


.


----------



## carverman

When will this charade finally end. I can hardly wait for Nov 9.
The big question is... depending on who gets elected, how will the aftermath of the election affect Canada.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> That sounds like a bullshit stat. Is this info courtesy of Trump, the pathological liar?


Courtesy Investopedia:

The Bottom Line

Donald Trump has dabbled in an array of businesses from bottled water to luxury hotels. The Republican candidate's 2016 personal financial-disclosure report is extensive and lists Trump as a trustee, president, chairman, or member for* more than 530 entities*. Almost half of these companies listed have Trump's name as part of the company name. The Donald’s colorful, and brash brand has earned him lucrative licensing deals; however, not all of his businesses have been successful, and several of his enterprises have been hit by his controversial comments. (For more insights on how Trump built his empire, read: This is How Donald Trump Became Rich).


----------



## TomB19

carverman said:


> The big question is... depending on who gets elected, how will the aftermath of the election affect Canada.


If Democrats can manage to take the Senate, I think that will have a mild positive effect. Republicans will retain the house of representatives so congress will be split.

On the presidential side, I don't think Trump will be that bad and I don't think Hillary will be that good. I expect they will be similar. Trump will call out some of the BS coming from congress, where Hillary is less likely to do so. Trump will be a laughing stock where Hillary is less likely to be so. Both will be lame ducks. I just don't see a lot of difference. It's not like either will have much influence on legislation.

As for Canada, I think we're screwed. There are too many Canadians losing their jobs to non-Canadians and immigrants. The immigrant problem isn't as bad as the "guest" worker problem but the number of Canadians with training, certifications, and excellent work records, who are unemployed, is rising quickly.

The Trudeau government is annihilating Canadian workers like no government I've seen. I voted against Harper in the last election and I'll vote against Trudeau in the next. Trudeau will get in again, of course. ... just not with my vote. lol!


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

wraphter said:


> Trump has not 4 but 6 bankruptcies
> 
> The market has already had a string of down days attributable to Trump.
> We already have lost money because of him.
> Thanks you Trump fanboys.
> 
> How many of those 500 have failed without going bankrupt?


Very good and interesting link with a perceptive explanation of what bankruptcy means ( it may not mean what a lot of people think it means).

It says 6 Trump entities have filed for bankruptcy since he started in business 40 years ago. In every case the business continued to operate while Trump gave up part or all of his interest to creditors, and the business was reorganized. All were connected to Atlantic City casinos. As a result Trump has had no ownership or interest in any Atlantic City casino since 2009.

If you look up Atlantic City casinos you will find that 4 out of 12 have gone bust and closed in the last 2 years, and experts fear half the remainder will soon follow.

Looks like Trump was smart to get into the casino game in the late 80s, made a lot of money, then got out when the writing was on the wall and before the business collapsed completely.

Another thought occurs to me. Trump has never disparaged Atlantic City or its casinos even though he could quite truthfully point out what a shitty place it is to invest. Nor has he pointed out that some of the biggest operators in the world have crapped out in Atlantic City.

It also reminds me of a description I read years ago, of how Americans do business:

1) Come into the office on Monday morning, raring to go, with 10 brand new ideas

2) Start 10 new businesses

3) A year later you have 1 or 2 shining successes, 2 or 3 terrible flops, and the rest are so-so.

4) Keep the shining successes and shoot the others between the eyes

5) On Monday morning come into the office raring to go with 10 brand new ideas.


----------



## new dog

Humble Zerohedge, CNN, RT are all the same. The editors and such on RT and CNN are there to make sure that the party line is followed. So for example on CNN if a reporter starts saying negative things about Hillary then the broadcast must be stopped right away. If the reporter says too many negative things about Hillary then they will either be fired or disciplined.


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> Humble Zerohedge, CNN, RT are all the same. The editors and such on RT and CNN are there to make sure that the party line is followed. So for example on CNN if a reporter starts saying negative things about Hillary then the broadcast must be stopped right away. If the reporter says too many negative things about Hillary then they will either be fired or disciplined.


Just remember that these posters you are arguing with all feel that Julian Assange is the devil and the exposing of government corruption is the work of the devil. You are arguing with people who have a third world mentality.


----------



## sags

While it is customary for world leaders to avoid comments on elections in other countries, many have made an exception in this election.

Their view of Donald Trump is...........how shall I put it politely, not very complimentary.


----------



## new dog

World leaders can make all the comments against Trump they like and no one says a word about it. If Russia was to make comments against Hillary everyone would be yelling from the roof tops saying Russia is interfering with the election. So how does it make it right in your world sags that comments are only allowed to go one way.


----------



## sags

The Democrat ad campaign has been torching Trump with his own words.

Trump's statements have made in impossible for the Republicans to defend against the ads and they don't even bother trying to.

Rather than preach Trump's policies, whatever they might be.........they focus on entirely attacking Hillary Clinton.

If the Republicans have an alternate plan for Obamacare........tell the people.

If the Republicans have an alternate plan of how to fight ISIS............tell the people.

If the Republicans have a better way to manage the economy or reduce the debt...........tell the people.

If the Republicans have a better plan for immigration..........tell the people.

They aren't going to win elections sitting back and belly aching about everything, without offering any alternative solutions.

They will get votes from their rock solid base, but there simply aren't enough of those voters to win elections.

Republicans will continue to do what they have done for the past 8 years.......sit in the back rows and wail and cry.


----------



## new dog

On ISIS or immigration almost any plan would be 10 times better then what the Dems have planned.

On the economy and debt the plan really will be how to manage the disaster.

Obamacare is everyones fault, both republicans and Dems.

Again it will be about change and taking the government back to the people is what is hoped with Trump winning. With Hillary you have everything to lose and nothing to gain.


----------



## Nelley

This is the Young Turks-who hate Donald Trump with a passion-and even these strong Dem supporters are backing away from the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApcqXijVzYU


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Humble Zerohedge, CNN, RT are all the same. The editors and such on RT and CNN are there to make sure that the party line is followed.



please be consistent. You have always upheld that zerohedge is unique, authentic, truthful & correct at all times. How can you come saying now that zerohedge is the same as CNN? this does not make any sense.

i agree that zerohedge is a weak copycat of RT dot com. But RT has nothing to do with CNN or any big western media. RT is moscow's mouthpiece. It's a sophisticated mouthpiece. Does an excellent job, for a state propaganda machine.

we should always remember that some state propaganda is actually 100% sincere, heartfelt belief. For all sides. That's why we need to read RT dot com. We need to respect russia.

i'm not saying get down on our knees & worship russia the way you do. Just saying check out what russia has to say, respect what russia has to say. That's also what hillary clinton recommended. Keep on talking to the parties on the other side, clinton said.

.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> As for Canada, I think we're screwed. There are too many Canadians losing their jobs to non-Canadians and immigrants. The immigrant problem isn't as bad as the "guest" worker problem but the number of Canadians with training, certifications, and excellent work records, who are unemployed, is rising quickly.
> 
> The Trudeau government is annihilating Canadian workers like no government I've seen.



how does this work? can you tell us more?

.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> please be consistent. You have always upheld that zerohedge is unique, authentic, truthful & correct at all times. How can you come saying now that zerohedge is the same as CNN? this does not make any sense.
> 
> i agree that zerohedge is a weak copycat of RT dot com. But RT has nothing to do with CNN or any big western media. RT is moscow's mouthpiece. It's a sophisticated mouthpiece. Does an excellent job, for a state propaganda machine.
> 
> we should always remember that some state propaganda is actually 100% sincere, heartfelt belief. For all sides. That's why we need to read RT dot com. We need to respect russia.
> 
> i'm not saying get down on our knees & worship russia the way you do. Just saying check out what russia has to say, respect what russia has to say. That's also what hillary clinton recommended. Keep on talking to the parties on the other side, clinton said.
> 
> .



I don't remember saying zero hedge is truthful and great or anything like that. I did say they are the same as MSM but that is to wide a brush and we will instead put it at par with CNN. CNN is the Hillary and Dem mouthpiece and RT is the Moscow mouthpiece.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Trump's statements have made in impossible for the Republicans to defend against the ads and they don't even bother trying to.
> 
> Rather than preach Trump's policies, whatever they might be.........they focus on entirely attacking Hillary Clinton.


They don't need to defend Trump. 43% of the electorate would vote for Trump if he grabbed a Nun by the ***** and then sexually assaulted every member of an orphanage. I call it, "The Nelley factor."


----------



## wraphter

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Courtesy Investopedia:
> 
> The Bottom Line
> 
> Donald Trump has dabbled in an array of businesses from bottled water to luxury hotels. The Republican candidate's 2016 personal financial-disclosure report is extensive and lists Trump as a trustee, president, chairman, or member for* more than 530 entities*. Almost half of these companies listed have Trump's name as part of the company name. The Donald’s colorful, and brash brand has earned him lucrative licensing deals; however, not all of his businesses have been successful, and several of his enterprises have been hit by his controversial comments. (For more insights on how Trump built his empire, read: This is How Donald Trump Became Rich).


TRUMP UNIVERSITY: IT’S WORSE THAN YOU THINK



> Will one of the world’s leading democracies elect as its President a businessman who founded and operated a for-profit learning annex that some of its own employees regarded as a giant ripoff, and that the highest legal officer in New York State has described as a classic bait-and-switch scheme?
> 
> .........
> 
> Schnackenberg, who worked in Trump’s office at 40 Wall Street, testified that “while Trump University claimed it wanted to help consumers make money in real estate, in fact Trump University was only interested in selling every person the most expensive seminars they possibly could.” The affidavit concludes, “Based upon my personal experience and employment, I believe that Trump University was a fraudulent scheme, and that it preyed upon the elderly and uneducated to separate them from their money.”
> 
> ...........
> 
> That was the bait—or, rather, the initial bait. According to the Attorney General’s complaint, the free classes were merely a marketing device. There, Trump University’s instructors “engaged in a methodical, Systematic Series of misrepresentations” designed to convince students to sign up for a three-day seminar, where they would learn Trump’s personal techniques and strategies for investing, at a cost of about fifteen hundred dollars.
> 
> .......
> 
> So what were the attendees taught? According to the complaint, “the contents and material presented by Trump University were developed in large part by a third-party company that creates and develops materials for an array of motivational speakers and Seminar and timeshare rental companies.” [b\The closest that the attendees at the seminars got to Trump was when they were encouraged to have their picture taken with a life-size photo of him.[/b]
> 
> .............
> 
> The newly released documents, which included actual Trump University playbooks (one was also uncovered by Politico earlier this year), provide more detail about the sales tactics that its employees used. Some of these methods, such as encouraging customers to max out their credit cards and playing psychological tricks on them, are familiar from the world of time-shares and other dodgy industries. “If they can afford the gold elite don’t allow them to think about doing anything besides the gold elite,” one of the playbooks advised the sales staff. At another point, the manual said, “Don’t ask people what they think about something you’ve said. Instead, always ask them how they feel about it. People buy emotionally and justify it logically.”


What he did to the students at Trump University he is trying to do to the country.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump University alone would be enough to stop me voting for Trump. This is one reason why I earlier compared a choice between Trump and Clinton to a choice between syphilis and cancer. I'm not saying which one is cancer.

Yes that is right, I consider deliberately swindling people to be worse than talking trash in a private conversation.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Zerohedge aka Fight Club is a free for all. You might find anything from thoughtful analysis by a leading investment expert to a zany conspiracy theory. One thing for sure, you will be exposed to new ideas and old ideas seen from a different viewpoint.

It has deteriorated a lot from when it started 5 or 6 years ago. But still offers an antidote to conventional thinking.


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> While it is customary for world leaders to avoid comments on elections in other countries, many have made an exception in this election.
> 
> Their view of Donald Trump is...........how shall I put it politely, not very complimentary.


Does he really care at this point? He's hoping that there are enough convinced voters out there that think he is still a better choice than 'corrupt' Hilliary.

If being wealthy is the key in this election, he's got it beat..he's worth BILLIONS.. Hillary is worth...well $34 million, not counting Bill's net worth, and perhaps where ever else they are hiding their money to avoid paying full taxes. 
Did Hillary ever make public her tax assessment/taxes paid for 2015? I think not.

Trump avoided paying taxes through a tax law loophole..which Hillary has mentioned on occasion, she will strive to close IF she is elected.

However, in America these days, tax reform is not an easy thing to get through all the different layers of gov't. Obama has tried and didn't get very far.


----------



## olivaw

*Newsweek: WHY VLADIMIR PUTIN’S RUSSIA IS BACKING DONALD TRUMP*



> All of the NATO allies are sure Russia is behind the hacking. All of America’s intelligence agencies are, too. The foreign intelligence services had been sharing what they knew about this with the Americans, and Trump had been told about it. But he blithely dismissed the conclusion of not only the United States but its allies as well, based on absolutely nothing. Trump had no apparent means of developing his own information to contradict the findings of intelligence agencies around the world. And that he would so aggressively fight to clear Putin and cast aspersions on all Western intelligence agencies, left the British officials slack-jawed.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> we should always remember that some state propaganda is actually 100% sincere, heartfelt belief. For all sides. That's why we need to read RT dot com. We need to respect russia.
> 
> i'm not saying get down on our knees & worship russia the way you do. Just saying check out what russia has to say, respect what russia has to say. That's also what hillary clinton recommended. Keep on talking to the parties on the other side, clinton said.
> 
> .


Respect? Not really.

What Russia has to say is often a lie and the Russians *know* they are lying. They lie deliberately and consciously.They are not sincere.They have committed war crimes in Aleppo.Putin knows who shot down the Malaysian jet over Ukraine. The murder of Litvinenko
in London has been traced back to Putin by the British inquiry.

The Russian leadership are hostile adversaries. They don't deserve respect .They do not approach the norms we set for ourselves,for example in the conduct of war. They routinely and deliberately bomb civilians. The US doesn't do that on purpose. They need to be deterred and confronted. 
They subjugate and abuse their own people and they will do the same to other countries unless stopped.
There is very little freedom of speech in Russia. They kill journalists who offend the elite. We do not do that.

There is no moral equivalence between the West and Russia. We are not perfect but we are better morally than them.


----------



## mordko

new dog said:


> Humble Zerohedge, CNN, RT are all the same. The editors and such on RT and CNN are there to make sure that the party line is followed. So for example on CNN if a reporter starts saying negative things about Hillary then the broadcast must be stopped right away. If the reporter says too many negative things about Hillary then they will either be fired or disciplined.


Russian government tells RT what to publish. Most of the time it's deliberate lies. Never ever has RT criticized Russian regime, which actually murders non compliant journalists. Zerohedge has no standards whatsoever and publishes lies and conspiracies without any basis whatsoever. CNN is privately owned, follows journalistic standards and routinely criticizes the US government. Journalists certainly have their biases but if CNN provides false information they would be forced to apologize. As they have. 

How is that the same???


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> CNN...follows journalistic standards...


Did you know that they took the word "gullible" out of the dictionary?


----------



## olivaw

CNN is a private, professional news organization. It employs journalists who (mostly) conduct themselves with journalistic objectivity. Hard news is verified and sourced. 

RT.com is a propaganda site run by the Putin's Russia. Some journalists, some propagandist. Some of the reported hard news is true but some is opinion masked as news. It's pro-Trump because a Trump presidency will better serve Russia's interests.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Respect? Not really.
> 
> What Russia has to say is often a lie and the Russians *know* they are lying



yea we know. So? hillary clinton is right when she says, pragmatically, Talk to your enemies.




> They [russians] lie deliberately and consciously. They are not sincere. They have committed war crimes in Aleppo. Putin knows who shot down the Malaysian jet over Ukraine. The murder of Litvinenko in London has been traced back to Putin by the British inquiry.


yea we know. So? what do you think you're going to accomplish for the future with all this backward-looking blaming? hillary clinton is right when she says, pragmatically, Talk to your enemies.





> The Russian leadership are hostile adversaries. They don't deserve respect .They do not approach the norms we set for ourselves,for example in the conduct of war. They routinely and deliberately bomb civilians. The US doesn't do that on purpose. They need to be deterred and confronted.


yea we know. So? the west has max deterred & max confronted russia for a number of years now. It does work. Me i can often see russia pulling back precisely because the world has cried out objections. I think sanctions work too, although they tend to generate intense hatred in the countries - russia, iran - that are sanctioned against.

for example right now russia has been offering offering safe passage for some out of aleppo, although not enough civilians are using the routes for reasons which include the rebels' demanding close to $300 for "permission" to leave east Aleppo. Considering that 3 weeks ago it was russia that was bombing aleppo hospitals & aid convoys, killing medics, aid workers & civilians alike, this is progress that only happened because the US & western europe applied outrage & pressure.

hillary clinton is right when she says, pragmaticalliy, Talk to your enemies. 





> There is very little freedom of speech in Russia. They kill journalists who offend the elite. We do not do that.
> 
> There is no moral equivalence between the West and Russia. We are not perfect but we are better morally than them.


so sorry, but this is the kind of preacherish language that makes me roll the eyes. What difference does it make in working towards peace or at least cessation of combat, whether we stop to denounce russia as morally inferior while claiming that we are so much better than they are, lah-dee-dah?

hillary clinton is right when she says, pragmatically, Talk to your enemies.

notice that hillary never says Preach at your enemies.

.


----------



## new dog

I know Humble and I like to throw snakes at each other but I don't think we are really that far apart when it comes to Russia. Sure I think Hillary is a horrible choice and Humble thinks Trump is a horrible choice but in the end I believe we want the same thing when it comes to Russia. We realize we have to live together in this world and each side can destroy the other and the entire earth many times over. So it is a very difficult task when it comes to properly dealing with Russia and we both realize that. The diplomacy and action cannot be to hot or to cold but just right.


----------



## mordko

new dog said:


> I know Humble and I like to throw snakes at each other but I don't think we are really that far apart....


Agreed.


----------



## mordko

Here is a good example of RT's "journalism". Drawing parallels between Clinton and ISIS (!). John Pilger, Assange, Trump, Putin... All the scumbags stick together. 

https://www.rt.com/news/365299-assange-pilger-saudi-clinton/


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Courtesy Investopedia:
> 
> The Bottom Line
> 
> Donald Trump has dabbled in an array of businesses from bottled water to luxury hotels. The Republican candidate's 2016 personal financial-disclosure report is extensive and lists Trump as a trustee, president, chairman, or member for* more than 530 entities*. Almost half of these companies listed have Trump's name as part of the company name. The Donald’s colorful, and brash brand has earned him lucrative licensing deals; however, not all of his businesses have been successful, and several of his enterprises have been hit by his controversial comments. (For more insights on how Trump built his empire, read: This is How Donald Trump Became Rich).


Licensing his name to competent businesspeople does not make Trump a good businessman. I wouldn't give him any credit for being on the board of a company.


----------



## Nelley

Breaking news- Crooked Hillary has changed her campaign slogan to VOTE FOR THE PEDOPHILE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42NIVBxr_GU


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> Licensing his name to competent businesspeople does not make Trump a good businessman. I wouldn't give him any credit for being on the board of a company.


I was answering a question re how many businesses is Trump involve in. I can't agree on your first point, collecting royalties or license fees with no risk and no cost is the epitome of good business. Wish I could make money so easily and safely and with so little work. It has taken him a lifetime to build up the Trump name to where it is worth licensing.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

"Breaking news- Crooked Hillary has changed her campaign slogan to VOTE FOR THE PEDOPHILE "

I was hoping she would go with "Never Been Indicted"


----------



## bass player

Perhaps Weiner accidentally found emails of Huma and Hillary and thought that keeping them was a good way to give himself some insurance in case it hit the fan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa7nSzCiGXk


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> Perhaps Weiner accidentally found emails of Huma and Hillary and thought that keeping them was a good way to give himself some insurance in case it hit the fan:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa7nSzCiGXk


Well he did store their emails in a file named "Life Insurance".


----------



## TomB19

Why doesn't the media report the fact that Trump is owned by the Russians who are using him to directly manipulate democracy in the United States? Obviously, the Russians have gotten to the media as well as the government.

It's discouraging to see that none of the major media outlets will report this sort of vital information.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Why doesn't the media report the fact that Trump is owned by the Russians who are using him to directly manipulate democracy in the United States? Obviously, the Russians have gotten to the media as well as the government.
> 
> It's discouraging to see that none of the major media outlets will report this sort of vital information.


I heard Elvis is living in Moscow-he and Putin go bigfoot hunting all the time.


----------



## TomB19

It's just like a Republican sheep to mock a foreign power overthrowing a Western nation. You are obviously part of the conspiracy, comrade.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> It's just like a Republican sheep to mock a foreign power overthrowing a Western nation. You are obviously part of the conspiracy, comrade.


Elvis was living in my basement for a while-great guy but he had really let himself go-liked junk food a lot-he was paying the rent in rubles which was a hassle as I had to go the money exchange but he was a good tenant overall.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> It's just like a Republican sheep to mock a foreign power overthrowing a Western nation. You are obviously part of the conspiracy, comrade.


Okay, I admit it...it's all one big massive conspiracy. We got Anthony Weiner and the FBI to buy into it and they're doing their part by taking down Hillary and the Democrat party exactly as planned. Once they're out of the way, Trump will broker a deal to sell the US to Russia for $1.

Switch over to our side, Comrade...


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Okay, I admit it...it's all one big massive conspiracy. We got Anthony Weiner and the FBI to buy into it and they're doing their part by taking down Hillary and the Democrat party exactly as planned. Once they're out of the way, Trump will broker a deal to sell the US to Russia for $1.
> 
> Switch over to our side, Comrade...


You're right-ever since we sold Alaska we have been waiting for this moment for our revenge-it will be glorious comrade-no more beer commercials-just vodka.


----------



## agent99

What a pathetic thread this has become. Nothing better to do?


----------



## TomB19

agent99 said:


> What a pathetic thread this has become. Nothing better to do?


We tried to have a substantive conversation.

Missed it by this much...


----------



## Nelley

agent99 said:


> What a pathetic thread this has become. Nothing better to do?


I needed a break from working so hard-I was digging in the backyard today and guess what I found-Jimmy Frigging Hoffa!-who woulda thought he was buried there-I thought he was under Meadowlands Stadium.


----------



## sags

I wonder who is writing Melania Trump's speeches.

Her speech writers might secretly be Clinton agents purposely trying to sabotage the Trump campaign from the inside.

Better put Zerohedge on the case.


----------



## andrewf

new dog said:


> World leaders can make all the comments against Trump they like and no one says a word about it. If Russia was to make comments against Hillary everyone would be yelling from the roof tops saying Russia is interfering with the election. So how does it make it right in your world sags that comments are only allowed to go one way.


Russia and the US are borderline enemies. This really should be obvious to you. Also, Russia hacking & strategically releasing info is a bit different than Trudeau mildly saying that he disagrees on immigration with Trump/


----------



## bass player

More and more it looks like Hillary is in deep trouble...and the Democrats still as a whole still refuse to denounce her, or even question some of her choices. The sinking ship may go down with all the rats still on board...


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I was answering a question re how many businesses is Trump involve in. I can't agree on your first point, collecting royalties or license fees with no risk and no cost is the epitome of good business. Wish I could make money so easily and safely and with so little work. It has taken him a lifetime to build up the Trump name to where it is worth licensing.


And the past 18 months to destroy it.

By this standard, Tiger Woods and Tom Cruise are far better businessmen than Trump.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> I wonder who is writing Melania Trump's speeches.
> 
> Her speech writers might secretly be Clinton agents purposely trying to sabotage the Trump campaign from the inside.
> 
> Better put Zerohedge on the case.


We all know who writes Melania's speeches. Let me give you a hint: the first name is "Michelle".


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Russia and the US are borderline enemies. This really should be obvious to you. Also, Russia hacking & strategically releasing info is a bit different than Trudeau mildly saying that he disagrees on immigration with Trump/


The FBI already said that at least 5 separate countries hacked into Crooked Hillary's toilet server.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> We all know who writes Melania's speeches. Let me give you a hint: the first name is "Michelle".


That is it-Melania isn't the orator JFK was-vote for the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> That is it-Melania isn't the orator JFK was-vote for the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet.


I'd love to but don't believe there is a "Nelley" on the ballot.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> We all know who writes Melania's speeches. Let me give you a hint: the first name is "Michelle".


"Only limit to achievement is the limit you place on your own dreams." -Crossing Antarctica 1991 page 318

"The only limit to the height of your achievement is the reach of your dreams." -Michelle Obama 2008

"The only limit to your achievement is the strength of your dreams and you willingness to work for them." -Melania Trump 2016

And let's not forget Joe Biden:

"Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., a Democratic Presidential candidate, was accused of plagiarism while in his first year at Syracuse University Law School, academic officials familiar with Mr. Biden's record said today. 
Mr. Biden, who as chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee is presiding over the hearings on the Supreme Court nomination of Judge Robert H. Bork, has called a news conference for 9 A.M. Thursday to discuss this charge and reports that he has lifted material from speeches by other politicians to use in his public addresses. 

CBS News tonight quoted an aide to Mr. Biden as saying he had been exonerated. However, an academic official said Mr. Biden had been found guilty, ''threw himself on the mercy of the board'' and promised not to repeat the offense. This, according to the official, persuaded the board to drop the matter and allow Mr. Biden to remain in law school. Mr. Biden's office declined to clarify the circumstances surrounding the case, saying the Senator had insisted on handling the matter himself at the news conference."

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/17/us/biden-was-accused-of-plagiarism-in-law-school.html


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> We all know who writes Melania's speeches. Let me give you a hint: the first name is "Michelle".


And, let's not forget where Obama stole from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M6x1H08aFc


----------



## bass player

Limerick of the day (not mine):

There once was a congressman named Weiner
Who had a perverted demeanor
He was forced from the Hill
For acting like Bill
And now congress is one weiner leaner


----------



## TomB19

Weiner is a dick. Besides the sex thing, his temperament is bad.

It appears, if the wikileaked email is real, that Hillary gets mad when she speaks at a fundraising event where she is not the primary beneficiary. That is not a good mind set for a president. It seems like the domain of selfish pricks, actually.

Trump is completely whacko. Gone. The guy is a flake.

That is all.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> yea we know. So? hillary clinton is right when she says, pragmatically, Talk to your enemies.
> 
> 
> .


Hillary early on had a very tough attitude toward Putin, even before she was in charge of the rapprochement called the 'reset' advocated by 
the Obama administration .

When she left the Obama administration she did not advocate talking to Russia,she advocated snubbing them and being unfriendly toward them.


> *In one of her last acts as secretary of state in early 2013, Hillary Clinton wrote a confidential memo to the White House on how to handle Vladimir Putin, Russia’s newly installed and increasingly aggressive fourth president. Her bluntly worded advice: Snub him.
> 
> “Don’t appear too eager to work together,” Clinton urged President Obama, according to her recollection of the note in her 2014 memoir. “Don’t flatter Putin with high-level attention. Decline his invitation for a presidential summit.”*





> President George W. Bush had famously vouched for Putin’s character in 2001 by saying that he’d looked into the Russian’s eyes and gotten “a sense of his soul.” But Clinton, during her own first presidential campaign in early 2008, insisted that Bush had seen no such thing.
> 
> *“He was a KGB agent — by definition he doesn’t have a soul,”* Clinton said.
> 
> Just over a year later, Obama’s surprise choice as secretary of state was tasked with managing the administration’s “Russian reset” policy, which sought to take advantage of the leadership change in both Washington and Moscow to inaugurate a new era of cooperation. The new White House believed Russia’s new president, Dmitry Medvedev — a St. Petersburg politician 13 years younger than Putin and lacking his predecessor’s experience in the Soviet bureaucracy — might be more open to a real partnership.
> ..........
> 
> The policy’s official launch was a flub: At a Geneva news conference in March 2009, Clinton presented Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov with a mounted red button emblazoned with the word “reset” in English, and the Russian word “peregruzka” — a translation error by the U.S. team that left the bewildered Lavrov puzzling over a term meaning “overload.”
> 
> .......


What really turned Putin against her was her comments in favour of the demonstrators who were protesting the fraudulent

Russian elections . 



> Clinton, who began her tenure by famously offering a “reset” of Russian relations, would end it by publicly blasting Putin’s government on issues including alleged vote-rigging in Russia and Putin’s support for authoritarian Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
> 
> Putin would fire back with repeated attacks against her, often injecting an unusually personal tone into the growing diplomatic rift.
> 
> ............
> 
> “She has policies and a history that the Russians don’t like,” said Michael McFaul, who became the U.S. ambassador to Moscow during Clinton’s final year as secretary of state. “It’s frequently forgotten because there’s so much noise about Trump and Putin. But this history is real, and Putin doesn’t forget these things.”
> 
> ...........
> 
> In December 2011, despite a deepening economic crisis, Putin’s United Russia party retained control of the Duma in parliamentary elections that independent monitoring groups described as fraudulent.
> 
> Thousands of Russians took to the streets in protest, and *Clinton — with the White House’s explicit blessing — spoke publicly in their defense, condemning Russian officials for manipulating the vote and systematically harassing election observers.*
> 
> ............
> *“The Russian people, like people everywhere, deserve the right to have their voices heard and their votes counted,” Clinton said during a speech that month in Lithuania. “And that means they deserve fair, free, transparent elections and leaders who are accountable to them.”
> 
> After her speech, when demonstrations in Moscow grew still larger, Putin suggested that his political opponents were following marching orders from Clinton and her team.*
> 
> ...........









> Me i can often see russia pulling back precisely because the world has cried out objections.


Really? Care to cite sources?



> I think sanctions work too, although they tend to generate intense hatred in the countries - russia, iran - that are sanctioned against.


Rather ambivalent,aren't we?

Russia used to part of the USSR during the Cold War ,which was a confrontation between the USSR and the West. The fall of the Berlin Wall was the greatest political event of the post war era. There was a relaxation of tensions ,an increase in political and economic freedoms and grounds for optimism.

Unfortunately Russia did not make the transition to a modern state and has regressed to its historical role of projecting aggression outward. Limits must be put on its behaviour.


----------



## sags

Time for Elizabeth Warren to go on the attack again. Trump hates her and wouldn't be able to not respond.

With Trump.......you get him off message and let him have a meltdown.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Time for Elizabeth Warren to go on the attack again. Trump hates her and wouldn't be able to not respond.
> 
> With Trump.......you get him off message and let him have a meltdown.


Elizabeth Warren lied and said she was a native American so she could further her career by playing the minority card. To no one's surprise, the crooked Democrats refused to discipline her or ask her to resign for her fraudulent actions.


----------



## sags

Not true.

Even Donald Trump recognized Warren's heritage and bestowed the tribute of native American heroine Pocahontas upon her.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Yeah that's what we need, a President who fears the Russians and snubs Putin. She might even bring back the good old Cold War days. Nobody brought the world closer to total nuclear annihilation than Kennedy (Democrat) in 1961 and we all know what a great time the sixties were. (sarkylert)


----------



## olivaw

Trump is a bully, Putin is a bigger bully. If Trump wins, we will have two bullies with the authority to launch nuclear weapons. 

What could possibly go wrong? 

:concern:

Has anyone here heard of the great filter hypothesis to explain the Femi Paradox?


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Trump is a bully, Putin is a bigger bully. If Trump wins, both will have the ability to launch a nuclear war (and the destruction of the planet).
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> :concern:


No one has ever called Trump a bully except the Democrats, so that claim is basically worthless. However, Hillary is a known bully, and you can add to that a deep bitterness along with a strong dose of elitist entitlement.

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## olivaw

^Ahhh Trump's old "I know you are but what am I" defence.

Interesting that the two living GOP presidents are probably going to vote for Hillary - and all three living Dem presidents are certainly going to vote for Hillary.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> ^Ahhh Trump's old "I know you are but what am I" defence.
> 
> Interesting that the two living GOP presidents are probably going to vote for Hillary - and all three living Dem presidents are certainly going to vote for Hillary.


Not quite...Obama's ego won't let him do anything other than write his own name on the ballot. And like most of America, Bill also hates Hillary and won't be voting for her either.


----------



## olivaw

^don't worry about Hillary. Your problem is a shortage of votes for your boy. When a Republican presidential candidate can't even garner the support of past Republican presidents you know he's in trouble.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Rape charge against Donald Trump dismissed.

http://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000158-318d-d416-abfe-bbdf51aa0001


----------



## sags

Rudy Guiliani has gotten himself into some trouble and is trying to backpedal away from statements he made in several interviews, claiming that current active FBI agents have been talking to him about the Anthony Wiener laptop investigation.

It now appears there are rogue agents in the FBI and that Director Comey has lost control of the agency.

An investigation into the FBI leaks is now underway.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Rape charge against Donald Trump dismissed.


Not surprising.


----------



## sags

On the electoral votes board, which is the only thing that really matters.........it has tilted a little in Trump's favor.

But the reality remains, that Clinton is sitting at 268 votes in solid Democratic States and just has to win any one of the undecided 8 states.

If Trump sweeps all the undecided States, he would be at 269 and will need one more electoral vote to win the Presidency.

He has to either win a solidly Democrat State or take one precinct in Nebraska which is one of the few States that divide up their votes.

It is possible, but still a tough road ahead for Trump, especially with Clinton leading in several undecided States and tied or close in others.


----------



## sags

The rape charge against Trump was sketchy from the start.

If you judge people by the company they keep, neither candidate looks particularly good.

I am thinking in American politics an honest politician would have a difficult time winning these days.

Winning is all about connections, money, and influence.........just to get to the starting line.


----------



## new dog

sags said:


> The rape charge against Trump was sketchy from the start.
> 
> If you judge people by the company they keep, neither candidate looks particularly good.
> 
> I am thinking in American politics an honest politician would have a difficult time winning these days.
> 
> Winning is all about connections, money, and influence.........just to get to the starting line.


+10 I agree with you Sags


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Rape charge against Donald Trump dismissed.
> 
> http://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000158-318d-d416-abfe-bbdf51aa0001




trump must have paid her off.

i'm not saying that trump is guilty. Without a fair hearing nothing will ever be known. I'm just saying that the probability is large that money was able to make this particular trump problem go away.


----------



## olivaw

^Hard to know. The allegations were unsubstantiated.

and unsubstantiated allegations are half of this thread.


----------



## sags

The FBI looks a lot like most Trump supporters. Maybe that is why they have gotten involved in the election.

_According to numbers from August, *67 percent of FBI agents are white men*. Fewer than 20 percent are women. The number of African-American agents hovers around 4.5 percent, with Asian-Americans about the same and Latinos at about 6.5 percent.

If Trump were running for president with an electorate that looked like that, he’d win in a landslide.

“*The bureau does tend to be more conservative than people you see in the general populace*. It’s a natural outgrowth of the demographics. … That’s just math, ” said retired agent Emmanuel Johnson, one of several African-American agents who sued the FBI for racial discrimination in the 1990s. “What’s troubling is you look at the same population groups they were having trouble [recruiting] 20, 30, 40 years ago and they’re having the same trouble today.”
_
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/fbi-donald-trump-base-230755#ixzz4P6c4CozR 
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> trump must have paid her off.
> 
> i'm not saying that trump is guilty. Without a fair hearing nothing will ever be known. I'm just saying that the probability is large that money was able to make this particular trump problem go away.


Reminds me of the "Jane Doe" in California who filed similar charges, using a fake address, then disappeared. It may be the same person.

Oh well 2 down 12 to go.


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> trump must have paid her off.
> 
> i'm not saying that trump is guilty. Without a fair hearing nothing will ever be known. I'm just saying that the probability is large that money was able to make this particular trump problem go away.


Could be Humble. 

Apparently, the National Enquirer paid $150,000 to a story about a Trump affair and then buried it.

Although they have printed several stories about Trump's primary opponents..........nary a bad word to say about Trump.

Strange that a tabloid has no interest in Donald Trump's titillating escapades.

_"In a written statement, the company said it wasn’t buying Ms. McDougal’s story for $150,000, but rather two years’ worth of her fitness columns and magazine covers as well as exclusive life rights to any relationship she has had with a then-married man," the Journal reported. "'AMI has not paid people to kill damaging stories about Mr. Trump,' the statement said."
_

Two years worth of fitness columns.........LOL.

http://www.politico.com/media/story...trump-affair-story-but-never-published-004848


----------



## sags

Oh what tangled webs they all weave............

The nice thing about always telling the truth, is that you don't have to remember what you said.

All these politicians can't remember what they said.....and they don't care that they don't.

They know they are lying. We know they are lying. Everyone knows they are lying.

It just doesn't matter anymore.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Hillary early on had a very tough attitude toward Putin, even before she was in charge of the rapprochement called the 'reset' advocated by the Obama administration .
> 
> When she left the Obama administration she did not advocate talking to Russia,she advocated snubbing them and being unfriendly toward them ...



thanks for your notes, but nothing you've posted shows that hillary clinton ever said Stop Talking to Russia. No recall of ambassadors, no shutting of embassies.





> Care to cite sources?



in fact i'd followed immediately with an example that is still unfolding at this moment. In october russia carried out one of the most inhumane civilian bombings in history in Aleppo, despite entering into a ceasefire agreement with the US.

world opinion erupted against russia. Abruptly on october 20th russia stopped the bombardment, opened escape routes from Aleppo including permission for known rebel fighters to leave.

putin is not a psychopath. He got the message. Russia has no friends in the syria bombardment. Putin withdrew slightly. This leaves the door open for Kerry & Staffan de Mistura to press again. And again. And again.





> The fall of the Berlin Wall was the greatest political event of the post war era. There was a relaxation of tensions ,an increase in political and economic freedoms and grounds for optimism.
> 
> Unfortunately Russia did not make the transition to a modern state and has regressed to its historical role of projecting aggression outward. Limits must be put on its behaviour.



no doubt everyone has their own idea of what was "the greatest political event of the post war era." The berlin wall may be paramount in your perception of modern history but it's not paramount in mine ...

nor do i think we can talk about russian "regression" or how "limits must be put on its behaviour" as if the russian bear were a naughty 2-year-old.

this is where i think a hard-nosed pragmatic approach like hillary clinton's is easier for the world to deal with. What you see is what you get. There is still a dominating _pax americana_ on this planet & ms clinton intends to keep it going. With a certain flexibility to be sure (where canada fits in), but basically _pax americana_ is still in effect.



.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Reminds me of the "Jane Doe" in California who filed similar charges, using a fake address, then disappeared. It may be the same person.



memo to future high-level US political candidates: keep a roster of Jane Doe's who will be willing to testify


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Could be Humble.
> 
> Apparently, the National Enquirer paid $150,000 to a story about a Trump affair and then buried it.
> 
> Although they have printed several stories about Trump's primary opponents..........nary a bad word to say about Trump.
> 
> Strange that a tabloid has no interest in Donald Trump's titillating escapades.
> 
> _"In a written statement, the company said it wasn’t buying Ms. McDougal’s story for $150,000, but rather two years’ worth of her fitness columns and magazine covers as well as exclusive life rights to any relationship she has had with a then-married man," the Journal reported. "'AMI has not paid people to kill damaging stories about Mr. Trump,' the statement said."
> _
> 
> Two years worth of fitness columns.........LOL.
> 
> http://www.politico.com/media/story...trump-affair-story-but-never-published-004848




lol i can't believe i'm writing this ... but the Jane Doe episode is the sole time in trump's campaign when i've felt even the slightest twinge of understanding for him

if i were the trumpster in the middle of all the problems he has going for him right now ... & if i could make Jane go away with a simple little gift of money ... believe me i would ...


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Reminds me of the "Jane Doe" in California who filed similar charges, using a fake address, then disappeared. It may be the same person.
> 
> Oh well 2 down 12 to go.


I believe that it is the same individual. She filed in California filed under her own name stated that she was in fear for her life. When it was discovered that she had not disclosed her correct address the case was thrown out on a technicality.

She filed again under Jane Doe in New York, citing that she was in fear for her life and chose a jurisdiction that Allen her to file under Jane Doe. She was scheduled to give a press conference a couple of days ago but her lawyer cancelled it, saying that there had been numerous threats. The suit was then dropped.

It's unsubstantiated and you have to believe that Trump is innocent until proven guilty. Same goes for the Clintons. The stakes in a presidential election are high and this one has been as nasty as they come. 

Too many allegations. Too many people willing to believe allegations that fit their political narrative and disbelieve those that do not.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

What the hell, why should she fear for her life? It's not as if she was ratting out a Clinton.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Donald Trump has been a well known, and rich, public figure since the 1970s. With a well known fondness for beautiful women. It is rather surprising no one has tried to shake him down, and there have been no tabloid stories. Suddenly, at the age of 70, accusers come crawling out of the woodwork by the dozen. Including a woman with no name and no address that no one has ever seen, and a porn actress who just opened her own sex shop. Could it have anything to do with killing his chance of winning the election? Hmmm.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> What the hell, why should she fear for her life? It's not as if she was ratting out a Clinton.


You appear to believe that the Clintons threaten people's lives to make sexual assault charges go away but Trump is innocent.

As I said - too many people willing to believe allegations that fit theit political narrative and disbelieve those that do not. 

ETA: Trump has a long history of public infidelity. There's the p*ssy tape, the Howard Stern interviews, the Megyn Kelly comments, Rosie O'Donnell, Alicia Muchado and more. He has alienated a lot of women and it may cost him the presidency.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> You appear to believe that the Clintons threaten people's lives to make sexual assault charges go away but Trump is innocent.
> 
> As I said - too many people willing to believe allegations that fit theit political narrative and disbelieve those that do not. You illustrated my point.
> 
> ETA: Trump has a long history of public infidelity. There's the p*ssy tape, the Howard Stern interviews, the Megyn Kelly comments, Rosie O'Donnell, Alicia Muchado and more. He has alienated a lot of women and it may cost him the presidency.


Do you even know what the word infidelity means? Insulting Megyn Kelly and Rosie O'Donnell is not infidelity. You might point to his divorces and say they suggest infidelity. Talking trash is not infidelity.


----------



## olivaw

Of course I know what infidelity means. You misunderstood my post. The infidelity was just one of the ways that drove women away from Trump.

Trump's most public affair was with Marla Maples. It was in the New York news for years. He didn't hide it. He went to high profile functions with the pretty younger woman on his arm while his wife, Ivana, stayed home with the young children. 

His philandering is as well documented as his derogatory references toward women, angry tweets, bragging about sexual assault, racist comments, lies about rigged elections, hinted assassinations, comments about Mexicans and dog whistle politics.

Now tell me more about the Clintons threatening to kill people. Proof?


----------



## Argonaut

Love the cheeky grin on the Donald.


----------



## mordko

Trump accuses Obama of screaming at a pro Trump protester. http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...ses-obama-of-screaming-at-pro-trump-protester

In fact Obama was rather gentle, and he didnt say a word to the protester. it was the opposite of screening.

It's like every single time Trump opens his mouth he HAS to lie. It's compulsive.


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> trump must have paid her off.
> 
> i'm not saying that trump is guilty. Without a fair hearing nothing will ever be known. I'm just saying that the probability is large that money was able to make this particular trump problem go away.


How come you never look at Hillary with the same skepticism as Trump?

The rape charge was dismissed...not "settled". Big difference.

One thing you can be sure of...the mainstream media will give it passing mention, if at all. Many of the Hillary supporters will continue to think the claim was valid. A year from now some of them will think he was found guilty.


----------



## bass player

Trump's latest commercial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vST61W4bGm8

Highly educated university students on top of the issues who support Hillary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLGG8VlDAOc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBHK6CLiunU


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> How come you never look at Hillary with the same skepticism as Trump?
> 
> The rape charge was dismissed...not "settled". Big difference.
> 
> One thing you can be sure of...the mainstream media will give it passing mention, if at all. Many of the Hillary supporters will continue to think the claim was valid. A year from now some of them will think he was found guilty.


These braindead sheep remind me of the OJ Simpson jury-a large number of jurors quit the original jury because they just couldn't argue with locked down minds anymore.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Now tell me more about the Clintons threatening to kill people. Proof? 

Where have you been for the last 30 years?


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Now tell me more about the Clintons threatening to kill people. Proof?


Not just threatening. Killing. Apparently, they've killed over 40 people, although the numbers vary by trusted source.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Courtesy Scott "Dilbert" Adams:

Today I teach you how to unhypnotize a Clinton supporter.

Keep in mind that the strongest form of persuasion is fear. Clinton’s team of persuaders has convinced her followers that Trump is dangerous. If you remove that part of her spell, Trump wins. Here’s how.

1. Trump’s Tough Talk Inspires violence: Ask Clinton supporters if they have seen the Project Veritas video of Clinton operatives talking about paying people to incite violence at Trump rallies. The people on the video have been fired, and we haven’t seen violence at Trump rallies since.

2. Temperament: Ask Clinton supporters if they have seen the video of Clinton ranting “Why aren’t I already fifty points ahead?” She looks either inebriated or deranged. Mention that the people who know Trump personally have reported that he is both smart and sane in person. Even his enemies who know him personally don’t claim he has a temperament problem. If he did, is there any chance we wouldn’t have heard about it by now?

3. Trump might insult foreign leaders into a war: Trump and Putin seem to get along fine. Netanyahu said he could work with Trump. Mexico isn’t likely to start a war over trade, or the wall. Trump says North Korea is China’s problem, which is literally the safest thing you could say. And China’s leaders are adults who know Trump says offensive things now and then. China will pursue its own interests, and none of those interests involve going to war over some words. Likewise, other leaders are adults too. They won’t change their foreign policy over some insults.

5. Trump might start a war: Trump owns buildings and property around the world. As a general rule, people who own a lot of real estate don’t start wars because their own assets are at risk. But Clinton is “sponsored” – via the Clinton Foundation and speaking fees – by defense companies that profit from war. Likewise, Clinton is sponsored by foreign countries whose interests don’t align with American interests. Clinton supported war in Iraq and Libya, and she threatens Russia, just as the money trail suggests she would. Trump talks mostly about having a strong military to avoid war. He gains nothing by war.

6. Alcohol: Normally alcohol would not be a risk factor in picking a president because usually both candidates are social drinkers. But Trump has never had an alcoholic beverage while Clinton tells us she enjoys social drinking. Having a few social drinks is not a problem unless you plan to drive a car…or make a nuclear launch decision. If we don’t trust a social drinker to operate a motor vehicle, can we trust a social drinker to manage a nuclear arsenal?

If you have ever drunk-texted, or received a text from someone who has, you already know how much “social drinking” can influence decisions.

7. Group Violence versus Crazy Individuals: Have you noticed that when you see election-related violence from a group, it is always Clinton supporters? That happened at Trump’s San Jose rally, and it happened with the homeless woman protecting Trump’s star on the Walk of Fame. When Trump supporters do something violent they are usually acting alone, and crazy. When Clinton supporters get violent it comes in the form of mobs who are NOT crazy. That’s the dangerous kind of violence because they are literally Stronger Together. 

8. Pacing and Leading: When normal politicians change their minds we label it flip-flopping or – more kindly – “evolving” in their thinking. When a Master Persuader does it, you are seeing pacing and leading, which is a major tool of persuasion. Pacing involves matching people – in this case emotionally – and later using that bond to lead them. We see Trump doing this often.

a. Trump paced his base by saying he would deport 11 million undocumented immigrants. Once he had his base on his side emotionally, he led to them to his current policy of deporting only the people who committed crimes while here. Have you heard any Trump supporters complain about it lately?

b. Trump paced his base by saying he would ban all Muslim immigration to stop terrorist infiltration. Once he had them on his side emotionally, he led them first to a ban on specific problem countries, and then again to “extreme vetting,” which is a lot like Clinton’s plan. Trump supporters followed, and you don’t hear them complaining.

c. Early in the primaries Trump paced the racists in the Republican party by not disavowing them as clearly and as loudly as even the racists thought he would. Since then he has led Republicans to think that some form of a “New Deal” for African-Americans might be worth a look. 

d. At the Republican National Convention, Trump used his emotional connection to his supporters to declare he was the strongest voice to protect the LGBTQ community. Republicans stood and cheered. 

Readers of this blog might recall that months ago I predicted that Trump would soften his immigration proposals. That’s because I saw him from the start as a Master Persuader, not a crazy person, and not a common flip-flopper.

In my opinion, Trump might be the safest president we have ever had. He can lead the dark parts of his base toward the light (as Nixon went to China) and he has no incentive for war. Claims about his “temperament” are mostly about his penchant for insults, and that isn’t a mortal danger to anyone.

And there you have your formula for unhypnotizing a Clinton supporter who is mostly worried about Trump being dangerous. 

—


----------



## bass player

Scott Adams nailed it.


----------



## TomB19

One thing we can be sure of is the mainstream media will keep focusing on the email investigation. Most of the Trump supporters will continue to think it is a guaranteed conviction. A year from now, some of them will think she was convicted of careless use of email.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> The FBI already said that at least 5 separate countries hacked into Crooked Hillary's toilet server.



nelley's obsession with bodily excretions is another telltale sign that points to her former ID on here. The neckties etc.


.


----------



## sags

I don't recall either candidate plying for the pet owners vote.

Where are the kittens ? The cute puppies ?

Epic fail by both sides.

I will fix that for them.

Hillary's puppy.....

View attachment 12514


Donald's puppy......

View attachment 12522


People do say that pets start to resemble their owners, so.............


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> I don't recall either candidate plying for the pet owners vote.
> 
> Where are the kittens ? Epic fail by both sides.


I'm pretty sure Hillary has the "cat lady" vote...bitter, single, aging women who have given up on finding a man and now collect cats for companionship as they enter life's final stage...


----------



## andrewf

Dilbert doesn't get the concern about Trump's temperament. The problem is not his boorish insults, but his incredibly thin skinned vanity. He was like putty in Hillary's hands, he was so easy to provoke and manipulate.


----------



## Nelley

Here is a good analogy for how this presidential race is going for Crooked Hillary-it is like that video of her being thrown into her ambulance van like a sack of potatoes-the van is the presidency-they are grabbing her and pushing her corrupt corpse and finally will toss her into the oval office (or they will miss and she will hit the van/presidency headfirst)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11-EAzsGxgQ


----------



## sags

Maybe Trump should start out a little lower on the political ladder and then try again in 30 years.

Like maybe, Congress, Senate, mayor, city council, or even a school trustee.

From real estate manager to President of the US is too big a leap.

Obama was a senator, George W was a governor, Bill Clinton was a governor, McCain is a Senator, Romney was a governor, Reagan was a governor ......even Sarah Palin was a governor.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> I'm pretty sure Hillary has the "cat lady" vote...bitter, single, aging women who have given up on finding a man and now collect cats for companionship as they enter life's final stage...


Not only does Crooked Hillary have the cat lady vote-I seem to attract these cat ladies myself-you can see it on this forum.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> I'm pretty sure Hillary has the "cat lady" vote...bitter, single, aging women who have given up on finding a man and now collect cats for companionship as they enter life's final stage...



ah, yes, your gf the nelliekins

formerly a crank caller to banks, utilities & other large bureaucracies.

when they wised up she moved on to phoning live radio talk shows. Until the producers also wised up & put callers on a screening hold.

after that she had to move into internet chat forums . .:biggrin:


.


----------



## SMK

andrewf said:


> Dilbert doesn't get the concern about Trump's temperament. The problem is not his boorish insults, but his incredibly thin skinned vanity. He was like putty in Hillary's hands, he was so easy to provoke and manipulate.


Trump has been a very angry person most of his life, and sent to military school for that reason instead of to a psychologist. He's got to be a very unhappy man.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Saw this and thought you might like a laugh


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Aren't you glad Hillary and her friends are so nice compared to that rough talking Trump crowd.


Jay-Z did not bother to censor himself at a concert Friday night, even though he was performing for Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton.

“F— with me, you know I got it, sexy b—- I hope she ‘bout it,” he rapped to a crowd of Clinton supporters. “I just landed in Europe, n—-. Shopping bags, I’m a tourist, n—-.”

He continued to drop N- and F-bombs throughout the night while performing his biggest hits, including “Dirt Off Your Shoulder” and “Jigga My N—-.”

The rapper was joined by Beyonce, Big Sean, and Chance the Rapper as part of a get-out-the-vote effort for Hillary Clinton at a Cleveland rally.

Clinton appeared on stage with Jay-Z and Beyonce and spoke about her admiration for his music, which addresses issues concerning poverty, criminal justice reform, and racism.

“Jay memorably said something we should all recall: Rosa Parks sat so Martin Luther could walk, and Martin Luther walked so Barack Obama could run, and Barack Obama ran so all the children could fly,” she said.

Jay-Z also briefly spoke about why he was not supporting Donald Trump, while Beyonce touched upon how far women have come throughout the past century.

Hundreds of miles away in Hershey, Pennsylvania, Trump also took the stage — but without an entourage of celebrities.

“I didn’t have to bring J-Lo or Jay Z…I’m here all by myself,” he said, taking a jab at Hillary. “Just me. No guitar, no piano, no nothing.”


----------



## Argonaut

Investigative journalism has reached a low point in American history. The mainstream media is no longer the source of any breaking news, they just receive information and choose how to spin it to their viewers/readers. Part of this is because of the digital era in which a story can be disseminated within seconds, and part of it is because the media is just a puppet of whatever special interest they serve.

As we approach the election, these are things that have been proven as 100% true by Wikileaks or through other means:

1. The Clintons have run a pay-to-play scheme for their own personal enrichment, selling political influence for millions of dollars to corporations, special interests, and countries like Qatar, Saudia Arabia, and Morocco.
2. The Democratic Primary campaign was totally rigged for Bernie Sanders, with Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Donna Brazille as key conspirators.
3. The Democratic Party paid protesters to disrupt Donald Trump rallies with violence, and then tried to blame him on creating a "toxic atmosphere".
4. Hillary Clinton mishandled classified information through gross negligence and use of a private email server. This information likely ended up in the hands of foreign governments, Chelsea Clinton, and renowned pervert Anthony Weiner.
5. Hillary Clinton deleted 33,000 emails after receiving a subpoena from the United States Congress, covering up her tracks with BleachBit and destroying Blackberries with hammers.

Some other stories that have not been proven true but show some evidence include:

1. The Clintons are involved in the human trafficking of minors in Haiti and aboard the Lolita Express.
2. The political establishment, including John Podesta and possibly Hillary Clinton are involved in satanic occult magic through #SpiritCooking.
3. Hillary Clinton is a walking shell of a human being and may drop dead at any moment.

Normally the combination of these stories would sink any presidential campaign. I have no idea how she's still in this. But the mainstream media refuses to investigate, and it's left up to Julian Assange and keyboard warriors on 4chan to get this stuff out. And of course, the left-wing response to this will be to either take one of my bullet points and say "that's not true because of blah blah blah" or to redirect towards Trump. But doesn't one think that this avalanche of evidence on Crooked Hillary should be investigated?


----------



## Nelley

Argonaut said:


> Investigative journalism has reached a low point in American history. The mainstream media is no longer the source of any breaking news, they just receive information and choose how to spin it to their viewers/readers. Part of this is because of the digital era in which a story can be disseminated within seconds, and part of it is because the media is just a puppet of whatever special interest they serve.
> 
> As we approach the election, these are things that have been proven as 100% true by Wikileaks or through other means:
> 
> 1. The Clintons have run a pay-to-play scheme for their own personal enrichment, selling political influence for millions of dollars to corporations, special interests, and countries like Qatar, Saudia Arabia, and Morocco.
> 2. The Democratic Primary campaign was totally rigged for Bernie Sanders, with Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Donna Brazille as key conspirators.
> 3. The Democratic Party paid protesters to disrupt Donald Trump rallies with violence, and then tried to blame him on creating a "toxic atmosphere".
> 4. Hillary Clinton mishandled classified information through gross negligence and use of a private email server. This information likely ended up in the hands of foreign governments, Chelsea Clinton, and renowned pervert Anthony Weiner.
> 5. Hillary Clinton deleted 33,000 emails after receiving a subpoena from the United States Congress, covering up her tracks with BleachBit and destroying Blackberries with hammers.
> 
> Some other stories that have not been proven true but show some evidence include:
> 
> 1. The Clintons are involved in the human trafficking of minors in Haiti and aboard the Lolita Express.
> 2. The political establishment, including John Podesta and possibly Hillary Clinton are involved in satanic occult magic through #SpiritCooking.
> 3. Hillary Clinton is a walking shell of a human being and may drop dead at any moment.
> 
> Normally the combination of these stories would sink any presidential campaign. I have no idea how she's still in this. But the mainstream media refuses to investigate, and it's left up to Julian Assange and keyboard warriors on 4chan to get this stuff out. And of course, the left-wing response to this will be to either take one of my bullet points and say "that's not true because of blah blah blah" or to redirect towards Trump. But doesn't one think that this avalanche of evidence on Crooked Hillary should be investigated?


Very eloquent summary of the whole thing. Bravo.


----------



## Nelley

Interesting conversation re the latest Wikileaks info on satanic ritual among the Crooked Hillary gang https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXtzU7lJRLo


----------



## bass player

Live on CNN, Hillary just proudly mentioned disgraced primary fixer Debbie Wasserman Schultz as one of her supporters and the brain dead people that showed up cheered for her.

At this point, anyone still supporting Hillary should have their mental health questioned...


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> Some other stories that have not been proven true but show some evidence include:
> 
> 1. The Clintons are involved in the human trafficking of minors in Haiti and aboard the Lolita Express.
> 2. The political establishment, including John Podesta and possibly Hillary Clinton are involved in satanic occult magic through #SpiritCooking.
> 3. Hillary Clinton is a walking shell of a human being and may drop dead at any moment.
> 
> But doesn't one think that this avalanche of evidence on Crooked Hillary should be investigated?


 

even though hallowe'en is over, it's up to the kiddie trolls to take this research further. Do carry on. Please tell us about satanic occult cooking, is that going to fly next at state dinners in the White House. 

tell us how hillary is about to drop dead every waking moment from cancer, parkinsons, alzheimers & miscellaneous seizures.

remember, also, to deal with all the corpses she has killed. Truckloads of corpses.

Argo it's time to forget about your five wretched little stocks. Stop wasting your time in graduate school. Your mission in life is transparently higher. Nobler. Grander. It is nothing less than saving the nation. Burn the witch. Build the bonfires higher.


.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Very eloquent summary of the whole thing. Bravo.



lol Argo a quote like this from crazybat nelliekins will put the shotgun to any career you might hope to have in serious finance ...


.


----------



## Argonaut

I've already graduated with an MBA and am writing CFA Level 1 next month. I'll be fine career-wise. But I'm also interested in this election and making a case against corruption and Hillary Clinton. Not as much interested in trading personal insults.


----------



## olivaw

To summarize Argo's summary of the state of the race: 

- Hillary is cool. Watching her verbally destroy Trump in the 3 debates was wonderful. 
- Trump has the temperament of a 4 year old. Putin would play him like a yoyo.


----------



## humble_pie

^^

no one is insulting you, mr cheeky. But best not to reveal your crackbar fantastical fairytales to working investment bankers, if as & when you ever gain level 3 some years hence. 

because if you do, your application for a job will likely be toast.


.


----------



## Argonaut

olivaw said:


> To summarize Argo's summary of the state of the race:
> - Hillary is cool. Watching her verbally destroy Trump in the 3 debates was wonderful.


----------



## olivaw

^^Cute. Remember when Trump was just a normal pervert grabbing women by the genitals. Now he wants them in chains and cages.


----------



## Nelley

Argonaut said:


>


Greatest one liner in a political debate ever-Crooked Hillary set him up perfectly and Trump closed the deal.


----------



## olivaw

Everybody who is anybody loves Nate Silver. He gives Hillary a 65% chance of winning. 

The Princeton Election Prediction also analyses the polls. It gives Hillary a more generous 99% chance. .


----------



## mrPPincer

^phwew, I was starting to get worried there for a second


----------



## humble_pie

.

seems the extreme stuff like spirit cooking is being pushed by a few in the NYPD. Even more lurid than the FBI, if such a thing could be possible.

the well-known alex jones. His website infowars. Joe Biggs, a beefy bellowing gone-to-seed US veteran you'd never want to meet.

what i'm still not understanding is Why the mob frenzy? how come these guys appear to be suffering from some new Zika virus variant that gets into the brain as quick as a few weeks after exposure?


.


----------



## sags

Some people don't realize that Alex Jones and the others are circus performers.........modern age freak show barkers.

_Come one...call all. For only a dime, 10 cents, one tenth of a dollar,...you can see the Snake Lady. 

She walks, she talks.......she crawls on her belly like a reptile._

They have found it lucrative to spin conspiracy theories because in a population of 300 million there are a few million who believe anything.

Nice office...........good hours..........great pay and they sell their t-shirts, coffee mugs, and tinfoil protection head wear.


----------



## olivaw

^ My hypothesis: People always had fantasy conspiracy theories but they didn't admit to them. The Trump movement taught people that it is OK to talk about them, even when they are not drunk. 

We're now observing a release of the crazy that these people have stuffed for years. Its coming out like projectile vomit after bad sushi.


----------



## bass player

The left still can't accept that the media lies to them, even when they see it with their own eyes. I can't imagine the mental gymnastics they have to go through to keep hold of their ideology in the face of all the evidence.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> ^ My hypothesis: People always had fantasy conspiracy theories but they didn't admit to them. The Trump movement taught people that it is OK to talk about them, even when they are not drunk.
> 
> We're now observing a release of the crazy that these people have stuffed for years. Its coming out like projectile vomit after bad sushi.


As the sheep on this forum say-maybe it is the Russians making you think that.


----------



## sags

Remember when.........

All of the Republican candidates had to make a trek to seek the blessings of Jerry Falwell, Jim and Tammy Baker, Jimmy Swaggart of the Moral Majority and other right wing religious groups ?

Alas,...they succumbed to the seductive twin evils of sex and money and were unceremoniously banned from the political scene.

Today Trump brings the twin evils on stage with him, boasts about them and is cheered wildly by his supporters.


----------



## sags

No one should have to explain to Trump supporters why he would be a big mistake.

People should inherently know that, like jumping off a 100 storey building is dangerous.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> .
> 
> seems the extreme stuff like spirit cooking is being pushed by a few in the NYPD. Even more lurid than the FBI, if such a thing could be possible.
> 
> the well-known alex jones. His website infowars. Joe Biggs, a beefy bellowing gone-to-seed US veteran you'd never want to meet.
> 
> what i'm still not understanding is Why the mob frenzy? how come these guys appear to be suffering from some new Zika virus variant that gets into the brain as quick as a few weeks after exposure?
> 
> 
> .


It must be the Russians funding Alex-the Russians are coming to get us-the only things that can protect us are Moose and Squirrel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqy-chPMnM


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> No one should have to explain to Trump supporters why he would be a big mistake.
> 
> People should inherently know that, like jumping off a 100 storey building is dangerous.


Only the lying Democrats have called Trump dangerous. They have not been able to find a single former business partner or spouse that will say the same thing. It's just another Democrat talking point (lie) that the gullible eagerly lap up just like everything else they are told.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Only the lying Democrats have called Trump dangerous. They have not been able to find a single former business partner or spouse that will say the same thing. It's just another Democrat talking point (lie) that the gullible eagerly lap up just like everything else they are told.


 Thousands of republicans, independent senior security personnel, and former presidents all say that Trump is dangerous. 

But sure, the people who signed his non-disparagement agreement are staying quiet.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Republicans, independent senior security personnel, and former presidents all say that Trump is dangerous.
> 
> But sure, the people who signed his non-disparagement agreement are keeping mum.


Yeah, sure. 

Several former secret service personal said Hillary was prone to violent rages and on more than one occasion they thought they would have to intervene on some occasions when she attacked Bill.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Because if what they say about Weiner and Podesta is true the Clinton campaign is one dead hooker away from Eyes Wide Shut.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Because if what they say about Weiner and Podesta is true the Clinton campaign is one dead hooker away from Eyes Wide Shut.


The entire media is trying very hard to pretend that there is nothing to see. However, this is far too big to hide and even diehard Democrat supporters are becoming aware of the many massive cover-ups over the years and that the media they trusted dearly have been lying to them. 

If these most recent stories are true, the media will have lost the last piddling scrap of credibility they have left and the Democrat party will collapse.


----------



## olivaw

Thanks Bass Player. Secret service personnel said that Hillary lost her temper when she found out that Bill had an affair. This changes everything. It definitely outweighs the thousands of qualified experts who say that Trump would be a disaster.


----------



## olivaw

Another predictor of the election can be found at *Election Betting Odds* which currently gives Hillary Clinton a 77.2% chance of victory on Tuesday.


----------



## TomB19

Did anyone watch the interview of Obama by Bill Maher? There are some interesting bits.


----------



## sags

There is lots of conservative media in the US. Like a lot of things in the US, it is largely regionally based.

Sirius XM carries several conservative stations. Fox News is a conservative news outlet and is one of the most watched media sources.

The failure of Trump's claims on a "rigged" media is that many of the conservative media sources refuse to support his candidacy.

Some of them have never before supported a Democrat or declined to support the Republican nominee.

It is ridiculous for Trump to blame others for not supporting him, when his offensive language and behavior was the cause.

Of the 16 candidates in the Republican Primaries..........how many support Trump ?


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Did anyone watch the interview of Obama by Bill Maher? There are some interesting bits.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXH5agV7skw


Good video - it was a far more sensible and substantive interview than I expected from Bill Maher. They covered everything from the media to the war on drugs. 

The science based food discussion was excellent. 

Was it just me, or did Obama seemed guarded in his response to Maher's defence spending question? 

Closing discussion could be summarized as: _Trump would be a disaster_.


----------



## mordko

I like it how Trump kept going on and on and on how all the polls were "rigged". Lately he has been doing nothing except quoting polls (selectively) and suddenly they are the most accurate thing under the sun.


----------



## new dog

Argonaut said:


> Investigative journalism has reached a low point in American history. The mainstream media is no longer the source of any breaking news, they just receive information and choose how to spin it to their viewers/readers. Part of this is because of the digital era in which a story can be disseminated within seconds, and part of it is because the media is just a puppet of whatever special interest they serve.
> 
> As we approach the election, these are things that have been proven as 100% true by Wikileaks or through other means:
> 
> 1. The Clintons have run a pay-to-play scheme for their own personal enrichment, selling political influence for millions of dollars to corporations, special interests, and countries like Qatar, Saudia Arabia, and Morocco.
> 2. The Democratic Primary campaign was totally rigged for Bernie Sanders, with Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Donna Brazille as key conspirators.
> 3. The Democratic Party paid protesters to disrupt Donald Trump rallies with violence, and then tried to blame him on creating a "toxic atmosphere".
> 4. Hillary Clinton mishandled classified information through gross negligence and use of a private email server. This information likely ended up in the hands of foreign governments, Chelsea Clinton, and renowned pervert Anthony Weiner.
> 5. Hillary Clinton deleted 33,000 emails after receiving a subpoena from the United States Congress, covering up her tracks with BleachBit and destroying Blackberries with hammers.
> 
> Some other stories that have not been proven true but show some evidence include:
> 
> 1. The Clintons are involved in the human trafficking of minors in Haiti and aboard the Lolita Express.
> 2. The political establishment, including John Podesta and possibly Hillary Clinton are involved in satanic occult magic through #SpiritCooking.
> 3. Hillary Clinton is a walking shell of a human being and may drop dead at any moment.
> 
> Normally the combination of these stories would sink any presidential campaign. I have no idea how she's still in this. But the mainstream media refuses to investigate, and it's left up to Julian Assange and keyboard warriors on 4chan to get this stuff out. And of course, the left-wing response to this will be to either take one of my bullet points and say "that's not true because of blah blah blah" or to redirect towards Trump. But doesn't one think that this avalanche of evidence on Crooked Hillary should be investigated?



This was a good post +1.


----------



## mordko

Firstly, one does not have to be left to vote for Clinton in this election. Most of my American friends are life long Republicans, or at least they used to be until this election. They are either not voting at all or voting for Hillary.

Secondly, yes, there are major problems with Hillary. However there are two candidates and when the other one is Trump, Hillary seems like an angel.


----------



## new dog

Yes a fallen angel.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> Investigative journalism has reached a low point in American history. The mainstream media is no longer the source of any breaking news, they just receive information and choose how to spin it to their viewers/readers. Part of this is because of the digital era in which a story can be disseminated within seconds, and part of it is because the media is just a puppet of whatever special interest they serve.
> 
> As we approach the election, these are things that have been proven as 100% true by Wikileaks or through other means:
> 
> 1. The Clintons have run a pay-to-play scheme for their own personal enrichment, selling political influence for millions of dollars to corporations, special interests, and countries like Qatar, Saudia Arabia, and Morocco.
> 2. The Democratic Primary campaign was totally rigged for Bernie Sanders, with Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Donna Brazille as key conspirators.
> 3. The Democratic Party paid protesters to disrupt Donald Trump rallies with violence, and then tried to blame him on creating a "toxic atmosphere".
> 4. Hillary Clinton mishandled classified information through gross negligence and use of a private email server. This information likely ended up in the hands of foreign governments, Chelsea Clinton, and renowned pervert Anthony Weiner.
> 5. Hillary Clinton deleted 33,000 emails after receiving a subpoena from the United States Congress, covering up her tracks with BleachBit and destroying Blackberries with hammers.
> 
> Some other stories that have not been proven true but show some evidence include:
> 
> 1. The Clintons are involved in the human trafficking of minors in Haiti and aboard the Lolita Express.
> 2. The political establishment, including John Podesta and possibly Hillary Clinton are involved in satanic occult magic through #SpiritCooking.
> 3. Hillary Clinton is a walking shell of a human being and may drop dead at any moment.
> 
> Normally the combination of these stories would sink any presidential campaign. I have no idea how she's still in this. But the mainstream media refuses to investigate, and it's left up to Julian Assange and keyboard warriors on 4chan to get this stuff out. And of course, the left-wing response to this will be to either take one of my bullet points and say "that's not true because of blah blah blah" or to redirect towards Trump. But doesn't one think that this avalanche of evidence on Crooked Hillary should be investigated?


The DNC seems to have sent people to Trump rallies not to inflict violence, but to provoke easily provoked people into committing acts of violence. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with this, it is a form of protest. I can't imagine why anyone would be more upset about someone showing up at a Trump rally with an anti-Trump t-shirt vs the people who threw punches at the t-shirt wearer.


----------



## bass player

The media and Democrats went on and on about violence at Trump rallies blaming Trump and the "deplorables", calling it disgusting and demanding that something be done. However, the exact moment it was discovered that the Democrats had hired people to deliberately incite the violence, they immediately dropped the issue. 

In the space of 10 seconds, they magically erased the criminal actions of the Democrats from their minds like they had never happened. Ask them what happened a year from now, and they will relate how Trump incited violence during the election.


----------



## andrewf

It is not criminal to say something offensive with the hope of eliciting a response from others. It is illegal for people to respond to speech with assault.

Trump also did encourage the use of violence against protesters, including offering to pay legal fees for anyone who assaulted a protester at a rally.


----------



## sags

The wife of a President is called the First Lady.

What will they call Bill Clinton ? First Gentleman ?...............I saw First Laddie written somewhere.

Whatever it is........it is going to feel a little awkward for awhile.


----------



## sags

Trump would be the oldest President ever elected. Hillary Clinton would be the second oldest, behind Ronald Reagan by about 1 year.

The Clintons would be the first husband and wife to be elected as Presidents.

Clinton would be the first female President and Bill Clinton the first male spouse of a President.

The Clinton family could have lived in the White House for the longest period of time..........12 years and possibly 16 years.

As a past First Lady, Secretary of State and President, Hillary Clinton would likely have spent more time in the White House than anyone else.


----------



## sags

Presidents earn $400,000 per year and receive $50,000 to defray expenses related to official duties.

The President and family pay for all their personal expenses, including food and items like toothpaste, cologne and personal dinners.

The White House is rent free. The government pays for State dinners. The on duty chefs are paid by the government. Transportation is paid by the government. The President pays the cost of waiters and set up for personal dinners.

http://www.tweentribune.com/article/tween56/white-house-obama-pays-his-toothpaste/


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Presidents earn $400,000 per year and receive $50,000 to defray expenses related to official duties.
> 
> The President and family pay for all their personal expenses, including food and items like toothpaste, cologne and personal dinners.
> 
> The White House is rent free. The government pays for State dinners. The on duty chefs are paid by the government. Transportation is paid by the government. The President pays the cost of waiters and set up for personal dinners.


Paying for your own toothpaste? how can the President afford that on his meagre salary...unless it's all tax free. 
That's gotta be a "tough life" for the President and First Lady.

If Hilliary gets in, what will Bill's official US gov't designation be? ...
.... First Man? First Husband?..that doesn't sound right somehow, even if he is...Hilliary's SO (significant other), 
or maybe "Former US President"?

"Annoucing President Clinton and Former US President Clinton:............

That's gotta be a first in their history...if it actually happens.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Presidents earn $400,000 per year and receive $50,000 to defray expenses related to official duties.
> 
> The President and family pay for all their personal expenses, including food and items like toothpaste, cologne and personal dinners.
> 
> The White House is rent free. The government pays for State dinners. The on duty chefs are paid by the government. Transportation is paid by the government. The President pays the cost of waiters and set up for personal dinners.
> 
> http://www.tweentribune.com/article/tween56/white-house-obama-pays-his-toothpaste/


So, why did the Clinton leave the Whitehouse "broke" as Hillary claimed? So broke, in fact, that they felt it necessary to steal furniture...


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Presidents earn $400,000 per year and receive $50,000 to defray expenses related to official duties.
> 
> The President and family pay for all their personal expenses, including food and items like toothpaste, cologne and personal dinners.
> 
> The White House is rent free. The government pays for State dinners. The on duty chefs are paid by the government. Transportation is paid by the government. The President pays the cost of waiters and set up for personal dinners.
> 
> http://www.tweentribune.com/article/tween56/white-house-obama-pays-his-toothpaste/


So, why did the Clintons leave the Whitehouse "broke"? So broke, in fact, that they had to steal furniture...


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> Several former secret service personal said Hillary was prone to violent rages and on more than one occasion they thought they would have to intervene on some occasions when she attacked Bill.




the last time you and/or nellie told this story, it was hillary's current chief of security who is a) sworn to protect the life of ms clinton but b) at the same time you 2 were insisting that the agent keeps on blabbing lies about how hillary physically attacks bill.

this must be another fiction from the NYPD? although you never seem to have any sources.

bass i am left wondering why you & nellie don't up your lurid fairytales several more notches? why not escalate all the way up to Chelsea? why not make up lies about how the former First Daughter now claims that her parents do this disgusting thing, or the FFD says her mother carries out that repulsive act. Child rape, torture, murder - nothing should be off-limits for your new working Chelsea puppet.


.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Trump would be the oldest President ever elected. Hillary Clinton would be the second oldest, behind Ronald Reagan by about 1 year.
> 
> The Clintons would be the first husband and wife to be elected as Presidents.
> 
> Clinton would be the first female President and Bill Clinton the first male spouse of a President.
> 
> The Clinton family could have lived in the White House for the longest period of time..........12 years and possibly 16 years.
> 
> As a past First Lady, Secretary of State and President, Hillary Clinton would likely have spent more time in the White House than anyone else.


When she was Secretary of State most of the time she would have been in the State Department building,called "Foggy Bottom" not the WH. 

However she was photographed in the Situation Room in the WH during the Bin Laden raid.


----------



## humble_pie

.

thankx so much for this. A breath of fresh air. It tells me that the country where i used to live - the country i used to know - the country where one of my children was born - is still in place & its values are still intact with some of its citizens.

what is striking in the interview is obama's modesty. He doesn't push his accomplishments as personal successes, although he's not loath to claim credit either. Rather he reviews them in the context of whether or not they are helping ordinary americans get ahead.

.



TomB19 said:


> Did anyone watch the interview of Obama by Bill Maher? There are some interesting bits.


----------



## wraphter

bass player said:


> So, why did the Clintons leave the Whitehouse "broke"? So broke, in fact, that they had to steal furniture...


Lawyers bills to save him from jail which was a real possibility, civil fine for contempt of court $900,000, Paula Jones settlement $850,000, some payment to
Arkansas bar regarding lose of license iirc.

On the way out the door Bill pardoned Marc Rich which proved financially beneficial to the former later on.


----------



## andrewf

Yes, you may disagree with some of Obama's policies and his effectiveness, but it's clear that he was a good president. Compared to the trainwreck of GW Bush's tenure... I feel like he could have done more to work with congress, including playing more hardball.


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Yes, you may disagree with some of Obama's policies and his effectiveness, but it's clear that he was a good president.


Really? How is that clear? The administration showed zero interest in working with Congress to resolve problems; the only interest has been in scoring political brownie points. Around the world former US allies are looking for new allies - from the Middle East to Philippines. Resurgent dictators are flexing muscles and invading European countries. Medical insurance bills in the US are going up by ~50%. The economy has been in the longest recession ever. Number of people in work is the lowest ever. Americans live shorter lives and are poorer than in the past. 

There are several reasons for the Trump phenomenon, and one of them is 8 years of Obama.


----------



## wraphter

andrewf said:


> Yes, you may disagree with some of Obama's policies and his effectiveness, but it's clear that he was a good president. Compared to the trainwreck of GW Bush's tenure... I feel like he could have done more to work with congress, including playing more hardball.


[sarc]Aside from greatly increasing the probability of nuclear annihilation with his passivity and being complicit in the deaths of 500,000 Syrians,
and allowing the emergence of ISIS by his premature withdrawal of US troops from Iraq and a few other things, he was a terrific president. [/sarc]


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

wraphter said:


> Lawyers bills to save him from jail which was a real possibility, civil fine for contempt of court $900,000, Paula Jones settlement $850,000, some payment to
> Arkansas bar regarding lose of license iirc.
> 
> On the way out the door Bill pardoned Marc Rich which proved financially beneficial to the former later on.


Both before and after. While Marc Rich was on the lam in Switzerland his wife was lobbying the Clintons. We know she gave them more than $1 million beforehand and that Rich and his business associates have contributed a lot more since.

http://nypost.com/2016/01/17/after-pardoning-criminal-marc-rich-clintons-made-millions-off-friends/


----------



## dubmac

I'm going to be soooooooo happy to see this thread disappear after this coming week. 
No offence to anyone - just very tired of seeing election headlines & all the poop flying around.


----------



## humble_pie

dubmac said:


> I'm going to be soooooooo happy to see this thread disappear after this coming week.
> No offence to anyone - just very tired of seeing election headlines & all the poop flying around.



black mac this is the only thing you've ever said that i don't agree with.

there are gems on here & there that rival the NY Times. Gosh there's even one poster who faithfully presents links to the NY Times.

thoughtful, backed-up commentaries from olivaw, sags & tomB for the dems, with Rusty leading the troops all by himself for the GOP. Also mostly thoughtful & backed-up from the wraphter although from time to time she does lapse into hand-wringing.

as for pooping, there are only 2 individuals with severe diarrhea on here. Every day, all day, night & day. 

then there are a few agitated posters, two of whom openly declare they drink too much (alas, this shows) (they become incoherent)

all in all, a pretty good ringside seat for the most important US election since JFK/Nixon in 1960.

could you let us know your take, black mac? because out there in vancouver, you are directly in the radar lines. NORAD is re-arming the old cold war radar lines, did you know that? this is why the next US president is so important ...

.



.


----------



## Mukhang pera

dubmac said:


> I'm going to be soooooooo happy to see this thread disappear after this coming week.
> No offence to anyone - just very tired of seeing election headlines & all the poop flying around.


Do you really think it will disappear? Too much to hope for, I would say.


----------



## dubmac

humble_pie said:


> black mac this is the only thing you've ever said that i don't agree with.
> 
> 
> .


It just fatigue HP. As I mentioned, no offence to anyone. True - there are many enlightened and engaging members who are well opined - I do read these, from time to time. I think my naivete is showing. 
I am a fan of the US. Always have been. It annoys me to hear the suggestions that one side will not recognize the win, suggestions of civil unrest. I pine for the old days - I want the US to feel good, and feel good about their leadership. I do not get that feeling - & it worries me a bit.


----------



## humble_pie

Mukhang pera said:


> Do you really think it will disappear? Too much to hope for, I would say.



i'm crushed. Two of my favourite guys! whatever are you 2 thinking of, to be so indifferent to such a critical event in current history.

in this US race, every single theme is being fought out like Juno Beach.

maybe you're both so west coast laid-back that we don't get the driftwood though.


.


----------



## humble_pie

dubmac said:


> I want the US to feel good, and feel good about their leadership. I do not get that feeling - & it worries me a bit.



it worries me a lot. That's why i was happy to see the Obama/Maher interview that tomB posted just upthread. Among other positive qualities, it exuded a quiet sense of stability.

.


----------



## sags

Interesting the way President Obama considers all the repercussions on every issue. He understands there are no simple answers.

His response on health care for example. 

He considered a one-payer system as the best one based on studying Canada and other countries, but the US system is solidly entrenched and millions of livelihoods are involved in the current system. Change to the system must be cautious and gradual.

It isn't as simple as Donald Trump says........he will just replace Obamacare overnight.

Republicans support Trump's simplified view of healthcare, and believe Canada's system is a socialist nightmare.

They believe they can just hand it all to the private sector and everything will work out fine.

That is why Trump is dangerous. He doesn't understand the complexity of issues and believes he alone possesses the solution.

People who think like Trump make mistake after mistake after mistake and never learn from any of them.

They always blame someone else for their shortcomings.

Those kind of people aren't problem solvers. They are problem creators.

How many times must Republican "trickle down" economics cause economic problems and huge deficits before they understand ?

The US has enough problems without a President or Republicans creating more of them.

They need a problem solving President, in the same mold of President Obama, and that would be Hillary Clinton.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Interesting analysis courtesy Tim Knight at Slope of Hope. I removed some illustrations but kept the text. If you want to see the original here is is:http://slopeofhope.com/2016/11/elevennine.html

So here we are. In just a few days, we will be in the thick of election day, and by Tuesday evening, we should have a good idea as to what the next four years are going to be like.

I started off this year with a post about the election, and I’ve written about it from time to time since then. The entire post can be summarized with its closing line: “It’s as simple as that. Status Quo means Hillary. Financial Mayhem means Bernie. Fear means Trump.”

Unfortunately, we didn’t get financial mayhem, so Bernie’s out of the picture. As some of you know, this saddened me greatly, because the country at last had a chance at a truly moral leader. His endorsement of Clinton now baffles me, considering the disgusting behavior that the DNC took toward destroying him, but I suppose his reasoning is the same as 90% of Clinton’s supporters (“He’s not Trump”), so………shrug.

Ever since the October 28th announcement from the FBI, Team Trump has been excitedly pointing to its renewed chances of success, but the numbers sure aren’t looking encouraging. Yes, Trump got “less behind” for a little while, but the spread is still as wide as Hillary’s backside.

It seems every day that passes brings in increasingly brazen tales of thievery, corruption, and lies. It’s gotten to the point now that even satanic rituals are part of Camp Clinton (hey, at least they’re not atheists, right?)

In the midst of all this insanity, there are actually some very well-written pieces such as this one (and here’s the second part) that articulate the source of all this angst and what its aftermath will be. As a student of history, I find times like these more fascinating than distressing, as we are watching massive changes unfold before our eyes.

I suspect, however, that “change” isn’t what we’re going to get. My hunch is that President Pantsuit will win (perhaps by a small margin popular-vote-wise, but win nonetheless) and she’ll be stuck with a Republican Senate and House that detests her with every molecule of their being. Nothing will get done. Kind of like the past eight years. And for all the talk of “pitchforks and torches”, America is far too passive. You’re not going to see any pitchforks. Or torches. Or anything beyond some bloggers continue to howl. Clinton’s life will be hell, I’m sure, but it won’t be because anyone is dangling from a lamp post.

I’ll repeat what I wrote back on May 28th:

……consider this final thought: picture in your head – – Hillary and Bill Clinton marching up Pennsylvania Avenue in January as she prepares to take the reigns of the most powerful position on Earth. Honestly, take a moment, and picture that in your mind’s eye. Picture Bill with his giant smirk, waving to the crowds. Picture Hillary and her gargantuan *** swaying back and forth (come to think of it, only Carter did the walk; they’ll be toted around in a bulletproof limo).

At that point, you’ll know the bad guys have wholly and fully won. Goldman Sachs. Lloyd. Bill. All of them. We’ve spent the past seven years thinking that the financial crisis was just Act One to a much bigger drama. Well, it wasn’t. Instead, the financial crisis was the last chance for America to save itself from itself. Instead, the 1% have utterly triumphed, a completely venal, corrupt woman is going to be escorted into the White House (mainly because women like the fact she is, clinically speaking, a female), and not a single bad boy on Wall Street will have paid any price for their sins.

It wasn’t that long ago that the person defeated in the Presidential race made a concession speech which, while obviously expressing disappointment, at least did its best to re-unite the nation, since every campaign has some divisive themes. That’s the nature of an adversarial political system. It seems like science fiction now, but here’s the concession speech from Al Gore, whom many would very rightfully argue had the presidency stolen from him (although, given what was to take place just nine months after this video, he might have too much regret, particularly since he went on to make hundreds of millions of dollars from Google stock):

Can you imagine, for instance, Trump losing and making a speech like the one above? And that’s the huge question: if he loses, will “Eleven Nine” (that is, the day after the election) be our own internal bookend to the external bookend of Nine/Eleven? How much civil unrest are we going to see? I suspect almost none. Lots of investigations, yes, but it’ll be back to WalMart and the Kardashians for most of America before the week is even over.

Almost as important is who takes control of the Senate. Just as the Presidential race has taken the form of a sine wave…

So, too, has the race for control of the Senate, which is much closer:

If Clinton becomes President Pantsuit, she will naturally have endless investigations and probably an impeachment to anticipate, particularly if both houses of Congress are hostile to her. She automatically starts off with half the country hating her, plus a portion of the other half will have a feeling that – – for lack of a better term – – “she got away with it” – – and they’ll hate her too. She is the perfect formula for an unpopular president.

As far as the stock market is concerned, which ostensibly is what we should be talking about anyway, the following pathway still makes the most sense to me:

This would suggest to me that, as risky as a “Clinton Relief Rally” might sound to equity bears, it might be worth holding on to at least some of those short positions and temporarily keeping wide stops. There is absolutely no way in the world that Clinton wins and the other side simply declares “we’ll get ’em next time.” I expect the biggest surprise from this election isn’t happening on November 8th, but in the days and weeks that follow.

( I think he is too pessimistic in saying the government will be deadlocked. If the big banks, medical cartel, foreign governments and war machine own both Hillary and Congress they will get passed what they want. The rest of the country, tough luck)


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Obamacare is a shambles and has been from the beginning and Obama is taking bows. The central problem is that the medical trust is exempt from all monopoly and fair trade laws, and can charge what they like with the customer having no right to even know what the charges are until too late. This is why you can get 2 stitches in a cut finger and it costs as much as a new car. Until this is addressed affordable health care is a dream. No one in politics is talking about this.


----------



## bgc_fan

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Obamacare is a shambles and has been from the beginning and Obama is taking bows. The central problem is that the medical trust is exempt from all monopoly and fair trade laws, and can charge what they like with the customer having no right to even know what the charges are until too late. This is why you can get 2 stitches in a cut finger and it costs as much as a new car. Until this is addressed affordable health care is a dream. No one in politics is talking about this.


Not sure if this is hijacking the thread, but how is Obamacare really responsible for this? US hospitals are a for-profit business and they charge the $4 bandages etc, and have been doing that for decades. How is it that it is something new like Obamacare which (from what I can gather) really just set up standards for medical insurance coverage, provide a platform to shop for insurance, and to make certain that insurance companies cannot turn away applicants be the reason that health care is expensive? This is not a new situation and has been an issue before Obama was even in office, or a senator for that matter?


----------



## mordko

I have not met an American who had anything good to say about Obamacare. Smaller companies are suffering and so do individuals. In the mean time insuarance companies are actually going out of business so there is less choice. And the service is deteriorating. It's quite an achievement to screw up in every respect. Even Hillary could not say anything complimentary about Obamacare and talked how she would change it.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bgc_fan said:


> Not sure if this is hijacking the thread, but how is Obamacare really responsible for this? US hospitals are a for-profit business and they charge the $4 bandages etc, and have been doing that for decades. How is it that it is something new like Obamacare which (from what I can gather) really just set up standards for medical insurance coverage, provide a platform to shop for insurance, and to make certain that insurance companies cannot turn away applicants be the reason that health care is expensive? This is not a new situation and has been an issue before Obama was even in office, or a senator for that matter?


That is correct. The problem goes back many years to Morris Fishbein's efforts to create a medical monopoly with himself at the head of it. The problem has grown and grown and no one is even talking about it except for a few "conspiracy theorists". Since 1980 medical care has gone from 3% of GDP to 20% and still rising.

Obamacare did not fix it and cannot fix it since it does not address the root of the problem. In future you can expect Clinton to announce that Obamacare is not working, it is not her fault, and she has a plan to fix it by giving the medical trust more money and more power while reducing the rights of the public.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It seems every day that passes brings in increasingly brazen tales of thievery, corruption, and lies.
> 
> I suspect, however, that “change” isn’t what we’re going to get. My hunch is that President Pantsuit will win (perhaps by a small margin popular-vote-wise, but win nonetheless) and she’ll be stuck with a Republican Senate and House that detests her with every molecule of their being. Nothing will get done. Kind of like the past eight years.


Funny thing you should say this, but this is what my "spidey sense" is saying when it's kicking in two days before the election.




> I’ll repeat what I wrote back on May 28th:
> 
> ……consider this final thought: picture in your head – – Hillary and Bill Clinton marching up Pennsylvania Avenue in January as she prepares to take the reigns of the most powerful position on Earth. Honestly, take a moment, and picture that in your mind’s eye. Picture Bill with his giant smirk, waving to the crowds. Picture Hillary and her gargantuan *** swaying back and forth (come to think of it, only Carter did the walk; they’ll be toted around in a bulletproof limo).


They are not going to march up Pennsylvania Avenue into the White House, even surrounded by SS agents. Too many Trump supporters out there
and too many guns in America. 



> At that point, you’ll know the bad guys have wholly and fully won. Goldman Sachs. Lloyd. Bill. All of them. We’ve spent the past seven years thinking that the financial crisis was just Act One to a much bigger drama. Well, it wasn’t. I*nstead, the financial crisis was the last chance for America to save itself from itself. Instead, the 1% have utterly triumphed, a completely venal, corrupt woman is going to be escorted into the White House* (mainly because women like the fact she is, clinically speaking, a female), and* not a single bad boy on Wall Street will have paid any price for their sins*.


"Ah but this is America..you and me...this is America land of the free"....



> It wasn’t that long ago that the person defeated in the Presidential race made a concession speech which, while obviously expressing disappointment, at least did its best to re-unite the nation, since every campaign has some divisive themes. That’s the nature of an adversarial political system. It seems like science fiction now, but here’s the concession speech from Al Gore, whom many would very rightfully argue had the presidency stolen from him (although, given what was to take place just nine months after this video, he might have too much regret, particularly since he went on to make hundreds of millions of dollars from Google stock):


So evidently, there are no real losers in the presidential race.



> Can you imagine, for instance, Trump losing and making a speech like the one above? And that’s the huge question: if he loses, will “Eleven Nine” (that is, the day after the election) be our own internal bookend to the external bookend of Nine/Eleven? How much civil unrest are we going to see? I suspect almost none. Lots of investigations, yes, but it’ll be *back to WalMart and the Kardashians for most of America before the week is even over*.


ugh!..the KarTRASHians..every day exposure..excess wealth-stupidity-*** implants and big boobs...is that the way American has to be represented?



> If Clinton becomes President Pantsuit, she will naturally have endless investigations and probably an impeachment to anticipate, particularly if both houses of Congress are hostile to her. She automatically starts off with half the country hating her, plus a portion of the other half will have a feeling that – – for lack of a better term – – “she got away with it” – – and they’ll hate her too. *She is the perfect formula for an unpopular president*.


To the half of Americans that hate her for what she is and won't do for them..
the other half hate Trump, for what he is..and probably what future decisions and damage he can do by opening his mouth before thinking about what he is saying.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> the last time you and/or nellie told this story, it was hillary's current chief of security who is a) sworn to protect the life of ms clinton but b) at the same time you 2 were insisting that the agent keeps on blabbing lies about how hillary physically attacks bill.
> 
> this must be another fiction from the NYPD? although you never seem to have any sources.
> 
> bass i am left wondering why you & nellie don't up your lurid fairytales several more notches? why not escalate all the way up to Chelsea? why not make up lies about how the former First Daughter now claims that her parents do this disgusting thing, or the FFD says her mother carries out that repulsive act. Child rape, torture, murder - nothing should be off-limits for your new working Chelsea puppet.
> 
> 
> .


Annie Wilkes: You actually have access to the internet-I have confidence in your ability to discover the name of the agent who wrote a book about Crooked Hillary's rages-go for it poor man's Columbo.


----------



## mordko

Incidentally, FBI announced that there was nothing new in the Weiner tranche of emails. Time for Cormey to do the right thing and resign.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> Really? How is that clear? The administration showed zero interest in working with Congress to resolve problems; the only interest has been in scoring political brownie points. Around the world former US allies are looking for new allies - from the Middle East to Philippines. Resurgent dictators are flexing muscles and invading European countries. Medical insurance bills in the US are going up by ~50%. The economy has been in the longest recession ever. Number of people in work is the lowest ever. Americans live shorter lives and are poorer than in the past.
> 
> There are several reasons for the Trump phenomenon, and one of them is 8 years of Obama.


Good post Mordko.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Why should Comey resign when he has done nothing wrong? The New York police investigated Anthony Weiner for sex crimes involving a 15 year old girl which you must admit is an offense that deserves to be taken seriously. As the girl was from North Carolina the offense involved crossing state lines which brought the FBI into it. In the course of their investigation they found Emails on Weiner's computer from his wife, Hillary Clinton's assistant, which involved the Clinton organization. Quite properly, they advised Congress by letter of what they had found. The investigation continues. What has Comey done wrong or what law has he broken?


----------



## bass player

It has now been revealed that Hillary had her MAID print top secret emails for her.

So, even though there may not have been any new emails on Weiner's computer, this is yet another massive breach of national security that proves how unfit for office she is.


----------



## mordko

Comey should resign because he inserted himself into this election without any basis to do so.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Comey should resign because he inserted himself into this election without any basis to do so.


Hillary should drop out of the race because she paid thugs to start riots at Trump rallies, and because her actions put national security at risk.


----------



## mordko

^ that's just false. What is your interest in making things up?


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> That is correct. The problem goes back many years to Morris Fishbein's efforts to create a medical monopoly with himself at the head of it. The problem has grown and grown and no one is even talking about it except for a few "conspiracy theorists". Since 1980 medical care has gone from 3% of GDP to 20% and still rising.
> 
> Obamacare did not fix it and cannot fix it since it does not address the root of the problem. In future you can expect Clinton to announce that Obamacare is not working, it is not her fault, and she has a plan to fix it by giving the medical trust more money and more power while reducing the rights of the public.


The sickcare business has an inherent conflict of interest-the sicker the population the healthier the business. Almost impossible to reform at this point.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> ^ that's just false. What is your interest in making things up?


What's false? Undercover footage proves thugs were paid to riot by people hired by Hillary, and everyone knows about the private server that was hacked. You're sadly misinformed. Do some research


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Does anyone else find it funny that the Clinton campaign now claims the Russians hacked their emails, after first claiming their home made unsecure server was not a security risk?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mordko said:


> Comey should resign because he inserted himself into this election without any basis to do so.


So in your view Anthony Weiner diddling underage girls should not be investigated by the police?


----------



## sags

I take some heart in the fact that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren will keep pressure on Hillary Clinton to adopt policies she might not otherwise favor. Free trade is a big issue in the US. The experiment failed and people aren't happy with the results.

I don't think Hillary Clinton could maintain "status quo" if she wants their support.

Obama inherited a health care system in crisis. People were being denied coverage, dropped by insurers when they got sick, and the cost was rising beyond control.

Millions more Americans are now covered with Obamacare. People cannot be denied coverage or dropped by the insurers.

That is progress....but it is far from perfect. They still have a lot of work to do to address the problems that have arisen.

Running a marathon always starts with the first step.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> The sickcare business has an inherent conflict of interest-the sicker the population the healthier the business. Almost impossible to reform at this point.


It would be a simple matter if existing antitrust laws were enforced, and if special laws granting them monopoly power were repealed.


----------



## SMK

SMK said:


> I always thought the best was being saved for last, but she'll be cleared just in time, let's hope.


All clear, just in time, LOL, when had there been any doubt?


----------



## mordko

Rusty O'Toole said:


> So in your view Anthony Weiner diddling underage girls should not be investigated by the police?


Firstly, that's not what Anthony Weiner is accused of. 
Secondly, he should be and is investigated. 

Are you being deliberately obtuse?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> I take some heart in the fact that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren will keep pressure on Hillary Clinton to adopt policies she might not otherwise do.
> 
> I don't think Hillary Clinton could maintain "status quo" if she wants their support.
> 
> Obama inherited a health care system in crisis. People were being denied coverage, dropped by insurers when they got sick, and the cost was rising.
> 
> Millions more Americans are now covered with Obamacare. People cannot be denied coverage or dropped by the insurers.
> 
> That is progress...........but it isn't perfect. They still have a lot of work to do to address the problems that have arisen.
> 
> Running a marathon always starts with the first step.


You must be kidding. People are being dropped by insurers by the millions. Insurers are refusing to do business in many areas including whole states. Others are getting out of medical insurance entirely. Millions of people are seeing huge increases. One commented that last year his monthly health insurance was like a car payment, this year it is as big as a house payment. This is with $5000 deductible or more. Others are dropped like a hot potato as soon as they get sick. It's a mess.

You can't get something for nothing. Forcing insurers to pay out huge sums for their sickest customers was supposed to be counterbalanced by huge numbers of young healthy customers who paid in but got nothing for their money. Well the healthy young customers never showed up but the sick ones sure did. On top of that the health care industry continues jacking up prices. If you held a gun to the insurance companies' heads and forced them to insure everybody cheap it still wouldn't work because in a year or 2 they would all be bankrupt.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> All clear, just in time, LOL, when had there been any doubt?


She is only clear of having new emails on Weiner's laptop. She is still guilty of breaching national security with her private server, and The Clinton Foundation is still being investigated.


----------



## sags

So there was nothing in the emails, and probably Rudy Guliani's furious FBI agent revolt was a complete fabrication by him.

All the other wild projections from the conspiracy websites, Fox News, Zerohedge and others fell flat on their face.

Some people ask....why isn't the main street media covering all these stories. Now they know....because there was nothing there.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Clinton's popularity spike, as Americans get disgusted with Trump and Republican BS and turn away.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mordko said:


> Firstly, that's not what Anthony Weiner is accused of.
> Secondly, he should be and is investigated.
> 
> Are you being deliberately obtuse?


I understood Weiner was under investigation for sending obscene emails to a 15 year old girl in North Carolina. The police seized his laptop to search for evidence. They asked the FBI for assistance. Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## sags

Rusty O'Toole said:


> You must be kidding. People are being dropped by insurers by the millions. Insurers are refusing to do business in many areas including whole states. Others are getting out of medical insurance entirely. Millions of people are seeing huge increases. One commented that last year his monthly health insurance was like a car payment, this year it is as big as a house payment. This is with $5000 deductible or more. Others are dropped like a hot potato as soon as they get sick. It's a mess.
> 
> You can't get something for nothing. Forcing insurers to pay out huge sums for their sickest customers was supposed to be counterbalanced by huge numbers of young healthy customers who paid in but got nothing for their money. Well the healthy young customers never showed up but the sick ones sure did. On top of that the health care industry continues jacking up prices. If you held a gun to the insurance companies' heads and forced them to insure everybody cheap it still wouldn't work because in a year or 2 they would all be bankrupt.


A mandatory single payer system is where Obama would like to have gone, but as he said.........you can't get there from here.

They could if they had all party support.....but that isn't happening anytime soon.

In my opinion the US is badly broken in a lot of areas, but they can't agree on the simplest things.....so their future looks dim.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Message from FBI chief Comey:



“Since my letter, the FBI investigative team has been working around the clock to process and review a large volume of emails from a device obtained in connection with an unrelated criminal investigation,” Comey wrote on Sunday. “During that process we reviewed all of the communications that were to or from Hillary Clinton while she was Secretary of State … I am very grateful to the professionals at the FBI for doing an extraordinary amount of high-quality work in a short period of time.”

“Based on our review, we have not changed our conclusions that we expressed in July with respect to Secretary Clinton,”

In case you have forgotten their conclusion in July was that Clinton had been careless and violated the law but they were not going to take further action, preferring to leave it up to the voters.

And congratulations to the FBI team for doing the massive job of reviewing 650,000 emails in 8 days. It took them a year to investigate the first 33,000.


----------



## bass player

What if there are more computers with copies of secret US government emails out there other than Weiner's?

What if Hillary's maid made 2 copies every time she printed a secret email (for which she had no clearance)? How can anyone verify that this didn't happen?


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> You must be kidding. People are being dropped by insurers by the millions. Insurers are refusing to do business in many areas including whole states. Others are getting out of medical insurance entirely. Millions of people are seeing huge increases. One commented that last year his monthly health insurance was like a car payment, this year it is as big as a house payment. This is with $5000 deductible or more. Others are dropped like a hot potato as soon as they get sick. It's a mess.
> 
> You can't get something for nothing. Forcing insurers to pay out huge sums for their sickest customers was supposed to be counterbalanced by huge numbers of young healthy customers who paid in but got nothing for their money. Well the healthy young customers never showed up but the sick ones sure did. On top of that the health care industry continues jacking up prices. If you held a gun to the insurance companies' heads and forced them to insure everybody cheap it still wouldn't work because in a year or 2 they would all be bankrupt.


Yeah but a logic based "healthcare" system would have as a primary goal a healthier population-that isn't even part of the system-not really. The American population has never been sicker overall and this is with record spending and a record level of medical system involvement. A population getting healthier-the logical goal-would have LESS interaction with the medical system each year, not more.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> What if there are more computers with copies of secret US government emails out there other than Weiner's?
> 
> What if Hillary's maid made 2 copies every time she printed a secret email (for which she had no clearance)? How can anyone verify that this didn't happen?


It did happen. FBI experts say the Clinton email system was hacked 5 times that they know of. Wikileaks got them someplace, Clinton says it was the Russians, Assange says it wasn't. Two different parties offered hacked Emails for sale but were shut down. The Clinton system was wide open like a singing alligator, it could have been hacked by anybody. Since every government in the world engages in "intelligence finding" it would be astonishing if they never took a shot.

This is why the US government maintains their own secure systems for important public officials. For reasons of her own Clinton refused to use them, preferring her own home made system. A typical Hillary decision by the way. Look at her record, she has a long history of messing up often in ways nobody ever messed up before.


----------



## bgc_fan

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It did happen. FBI experts say the Clinton email system was hacked 5 times that they know of. Wikileaks got them someplace, Clinton says it was the Russians, Assange says it wasn't. Two different parties offered hacked Emails for sale but were shut down. The Clinton system was wide open like a singing alligator, it could have been hacked by anybody. Since every government in the world engages in "intelligence finding" it would be astonishing if they never took a shot.
> 
> This is why the US government maintains their own secure systems for important public officials. For reasons of her own Clinton refused to use them, preferring her own home made system. A typical Hillary decision by the way. Look at her record, she has a long history of messing up often in ways nobody ever messed up before.


Do you have a link to the e-mail server being hacked? The Wikileaks e-mails are derived from a phishing expedition on John Podesta's Gmail account.

And no, the FBI didn't say that it was hacked by 5 other agencies. Even Fox News said that the quote was that there is a high probability, but no evidence. The FBI statement only said that there were attempts, but no breaches that they can determine.


----------



## bgc_fan

Rusty O'Toole said:


> That is correct. The problem goes back many years to Morris Fishbein's efforts to create a medical monopoly with himself at the head of it. The problem has grown and grown and no one is even talking about it except for a few "conspiracy theorists". Since 1980 medical care has gone from 3% of GDP to 20% and still rising.
> 
> Obamacare did not fix it and cannot fix it since it does not address the root of the problem. In future you can expect Clinton to announce that Obamacare is not working, it is not her fault, and she has a plan to fix it by giving the medical trust more money and more power while reducing the rights of the public.


I guess it depends on how you define the goal of Obamacare. Was it to reduce total medical expenses? Not that I can tell. Was it to ensure that people can obtain affordable medical insurance? I would say yes to some degree. The obvious problem as has been pointed out is that you do need the healthy people to buy into this program, but they all opted out. But that is basically the whole point of insurance. I mean we all have to carry car insurance, but somehow we've managed not to bankrupt the insurance companies.


----------



## Mukhang pera

humble_pie said:


> i'm crushed. Two of my favourite guys! whatever are you 2 thinking of, to be so indifferent to such a critical event in current history.
> 
> in this US race, every single theme is being fought out like Juno Beach.
> 
> maybe you're both so west coast laid-back that we don't get the driftwood though.


HP, it's not a matter of being indifferent to the critical event in question. My fortunes and those of members of my family are closely tied to the U.S., in more ways than I have posted on CMF. I care a lot.

And yes, while there have been some thoughtful, reasoned posts, the bulk of the astonishing 4,600+ posts to this thread display little merit. Stripped to their essentials, they come down to saying: "This is why the candidate I favour should win and, if you cannot see that, you are dead wrong." There has been little in the way of give-and-take. No concessions. Mostly just tireless repetition of initial position of a fairly small number of CMFers, an exchange of insults and thinly-veiled hostility. With a few exceptions you have noted, the debate here mirrors the dismal quality of debate of the two candidates. 

I have plodded through most of what has been written here and I cannot say that I have seen much to make me pause and think, to reflect, to modify my own views, or any such thing.

HP, you mention “thoughtful, backed-up commentaries from olivaw, sags & tomB for the dems, with Rusty leading the troops all by himself for the GOP. Also mostly thoughtful & backed-up from the wraphter although from time to time she does lapse into hand-wringing.”

Olivaw calls those who have a different opinion “clowns”. TomB calls them “partisan hacks” (albeit the defence of provocation might apply in that instance - see post #3297); so even some of those to whom whom you attribute objectivity have manifested some feet of clay. 

At post #3969 indexxx said:



indexxx said:


> I've watched this thread since its inception, and it is completely and unequivocally clear that a couple of the hard-line right posters are here to insult and troll, nothing more. There is no point in trying to be polite or reasonable with them, or ask why they behave like snarky assholes- that is exactly what they are on here for; to anger and inflame other people. I've notice that when a reasonable question is politely asked, it is almost always ignored, or else the asker is personally insulted and called childish names (bubblehead, Einstein, idiot, sheep, etc.). Seriously- who does moronic **** like that? It's all part of pushing buttons for a reactionary response. It's like trying to argue with a drunk- it's no-win, so the answer is simply not to feed the trolls. Civility is the last thing on their mind- it's all about poking people in the eye for laughs. Kind of sadistic but that's life online sometimes; all one needs to do is look at all the asinine jackass garbage all over the place and realize that there are simply a lot of douchelords out there who get their kicks putting other people down. It's just another form of bullying. If you were in the same room with one of them and asked them why they behave like that, their answer would be "F$#k you, that's why!". Nice- god help us if they breed.
> 
> You can't expect reasonable behaviour from unreasonable people.


Those words are consonant with my view of about 90% of thread. If I may borrow from T.S. Eliot: like a tedious argument 
Of insidious intent.

As for the debate itself, I fear that between Scylla that is Clinton and the Charybdis that is Trump, a country about which I care a great deal will come out at the end of the term of either looking like she was rode hard and put away wet.


----------



## new dog

Mukhang the country you love is controlled by corporate interests and the war machine. I would say 90 percent of the candidates on both sides have to feed the war machine in the US. You should have noticed there is always a war on something going on in the US and there is much money to be made besides holding up the US dollar and positioning itself around the world. 

The great danger right now is the US war machine is running out of countries to invade and blow up. It looks like only Syria and Iran are left to go and after that you are fighting super powers. Then you have a huge debt that can't be paid back, health care crisis as Rusty mentioned and interest rates that can't really go lower when the next recession hits.

Trump is not the answer but hopefully he will steer the country away from war, corruption and what we are all used to in the US. After he has done one term and gets thrown out, the hope is momentum will be made and better leadership can pop up and really steer the country in the right direction.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> Comey should resign because he inserted himself into this election without any basis to do so.


Agreed. He's an honourable guy,and resignation is the honourable thing to do.


----------



## olivaw

Mukhang pera said:


> Olivaw calls those who have a different opinion “clowns”. TomB calls them “partisan hacks” (albeit the defence of provocation might apply in that instance - see post #3297); so even some of those to whom whom you attribute objectivity have manifested some feet of clay.


This is categorically false. I called Trump a clown. 

But hey, way to sit on the sidelines and then swoop in to tell us that you're above it all.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Actually he FAILED to insert himself into the election. When asked to investigate the email question his answer was that Hillary was careless, and had done things that would get anyone else prosecuted and sent to prison, but he was not going to do anything about it. He was going to leave it up to the voters. Confronted with 650,000 new emails from another investigation, he announced after 8 days that nothing new turned up and his old answer stands.

He could not have done less, that is what some people are upset about.


----------



## Nelley

This election is Clinton vs Trump but this long thread is nothing but pro MSM posts vs anti MSM posts. You either accept the premise that the MSM is lying constantly or you don't-that is it. Clinton supporters overwhelmingly actually believe what is in the MSM or pretend to believe it. At this point IMO supporters of the premise of a fair and balanced MSM operating independently and objectively are like supporters of the premise of a 4000 year old Earth-it becomes more of an argument/debate because the non-supporters of the MSM have little or no respect-intellectually speaking- for the entire premise.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Actually he FAILED to insert himself into the election. When asked to investigate the email question his answer was that Hillary was careless, and had done things that would get anyone else prosecuted and sent to prison, but he was not going to do anything about it. He was going to leave it up to the voters. Confronted with 650,000 new emails from another investigation, he announced after 8 days that nothing new turned up and his old answer stands.
> 
> He could not have done less, that is what some people are upset about.


He published a vague letter that promoted innuendo and rumour. Then he announced that it was much ado about nothing. 

In the interim, journalists looked into the FBI and found an organization was rife with infighting and partisan politics. Perhaps they exaggerated, perhaps they didn't. Either way, it harmed the FBI's reputation. It may take new leadership to repair it.


----------



## mordko

I am not sure "intellectual" is an appropriate term in Nelley's context, but sure... It is hard to find any common ground with someone who either makes things up out of thin air or, worse, uses fabrications from seriously dodgy conspiracy websites.

Very much like Trump himself. I think my favourite nonsense was when Trump claimed that Cruz's father killed JFK, but he pretty much comes up with an idiotic lie every time he opens his mouth. 

It's very sad that there are people buying it in the supposedly enlightened N America.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> This election is Clinton vs Trump but this long thread is nothing but pro MSM posts vs anti MSM posts. You either accept the premise that the MSM is lying constantly or you don't-that is it. Clinton supporters overwhelmingly actually believe what is in the MSM or pretend to believe it. At this point IMO supporters of the premise of a fair and balanced MSM operating independently and objectively are like supporters of the premise of a 4000 year old Earth-it becomes more of an argument/debate because the non-supporters of the MSM have little or no respect-intellectually speaking- for the entire premise.



No silly. In some cases, it is a debate between those who prefer evidence based journalism to fake news stories. Mainstream sources like CNN, Fox, CBC, BBC, NY Times, NBC etc. adhere, however imperfectly, to journalistic standards. They may allow a little bias into their presentation but what they publish is usually verified. If they make a mistake, they will issue a retraction. 

Sites like RT.COM mix hard news with Russian propaganda. Sites like zero-hedge publish complete nonsense. 

Trump doesn't believe the alternative media. He is willing to capitalize on the gullibility of people to promote his campaign but he gets his own news from CNN.


----------



## bass player

^^

Actually, what this election has shown is how completely dishonest the media has become. Those who lean left don't see it because what they hear fits their preconceived ideas. A presidential candidate has collapsed in public, collected 10's of millions in donations from America's enemies, breached national security, and is under FBI investigation...but the biggest story to the media is a 20-year old tax return or 15-year old locker room talk from the other candidate.

How far up one's arse does your head have to be to not see this?


----------



## sags

Trump doesn't even stick with a lie. As soon as he is caught he tells another lie by denying he said the first one. Then he tells another lie.

He just tosses things out, sways in the wind, and then changes direction whichever way it is blowing.

His presidency bid is certainly unique and unprecedented in that a nominee could keep changing their policies and statements.....sometimes a couple of times in a single day, and stay in the race........let alone winning the nomination.

Donald Trump isn't expected to tell the truth by his supporters.

When his own campaign team begs him to "act" Presidential and stay off Twitter........what does that say ?

Pretend for a little while and then once elected just go ahead and do whatever you want to do ?

The Republicans were so blindsided and hungry for power they ignored a lot of warning signs.


----------



## TomB19

I heard that video exists showing that Hillary threatened to kill James comey if he didn't absolve her of her crimes. Of course, the FBI is terrified of Hillary so they fell in line.

I read it in one of bass player or nelley's posts. I mean, I haven't read that but I'm sure they will claim that, if they haven't already.

I try to remain optimistic about people. It's good for investing success and it's good for life success. ... But when Hillary is only leading Trump by 3 points, it's clear that 43% of the us electorate are complete morons who will believe any garbage shovelled their way. Canada isn't much different.

Hillary will win but what hope do we have?

I've seen too much.


----------



## mordko

For the record, I do not lean left. Nor do I think that Clinton is a good candidate. I do think she is by far the better of the two, given that her opponent is an anti-trade, racist, misogynist conspiracy theorist with bad temperament, dodgy morals and zero experience of any relevance.


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Trump is not the answer but hopefully he will steer the country away from war, corruption and what we are all used to in the US. After he has done one term and gets thrown out, the hope is momentum will be made and better leadership can pop up and really steer the country in the right direction.




dog the wisdom of a caretaker government while the US slowly rebuilds both left & right in the glorious spirit of philadelphia is my contribution to the forum today, not yours. Please don't plagiarize.

however, the caretaker will likely be hillary clinton. Evidently the trumpsters are having trouble grasping that it's over.


.


----------



## olivaw

There won't be time for the polls to reflect the FBI's decision to clear Clinton (again) so Nate Silver doesn't have a lot to say. 
*Betting markets* say ....


----------



## humble_pie

^^

US dollar sharply up in asia


----------



## TomB19

Nate silver is corrupt. As proof, I cite his predictions which do not match my opinion.


----------



## bass player

TomB19 said:


> I But when Hillary is only leading Trump by 3 points, it's clear that 43% of the us electorate are complete morons who will believe any garbage shovelled their way. Canada isn't much different.


The same old leftist arrogance and hatred rears its ugly head again...insult anyone who doesn't buy into their ideological BS. Only your opinion matter and anyone who disagrees is a moron or a deplorable.


----------



## TomB19

Keep writing, bass player. The glow of your posts is relaxing.


----------



## Mukhang pera

olivaw said:


> This is categorically false. I called Trump a clown.
> 
> But hey, way to sit on the sidelines and then swoop in to tell us that you're above it all.


Hey, way to deny the undeniable. You should be running for POTUS.

Do you deny being the author of this bit of tripe at post #1079?:




olivaw said:


> The childish conjecture about Hillary Clinton's health by the four clowns in this thread is boring.


How can you keep a straight face and say “the four clowns in this thread” is a reference to Trump? 

It's people like you that have kept me on the sidelines. You engage in name-calling and belittling others, then denying it. Like indexxx said: You can't expect reasonable behaviour from unreasonable people.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Do you want to know how Trump reacts under pressure?

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231613


----------



## Nelley

Mukhang pera said:


> Hey, way to deny the undeniable. You should be running for POTUS.
> 
> Do you deny being the author of this bit of tripe at post #1079?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you keep a straight face and say “the four clowns in this thread” is a reference to Trump?
> 
> It's people like you that have kept me on the sidelines. You engage in name-calling and belittling others, then denying it. Like indexxx said: You can't expect reasonable behaviour from unreasonable people.


Time for me to leap to the defence of Olivaw-Indexxx is just about as stupid as Olivaw-which is quite a feat.


----------



## olivaw

Unlike many here - I have come to admire Hillary Clinton over the past few years. Her reputation has been battered and bruised by years of political fighting but she came through it with her dignity intact. She is not charismatic, she is not glamorous and she sounds like she is lying when she tells the truth. I still believe that she will be a good leader. 

Neither Trump nor Hillary are evil. Neither should be jailed. Neither deserves to be destroyed. 

The major difference is that Hillary is competent.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Do you want to know how Trump reacts under pressure?
> 
> https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231613


Gee...how did the mainstream media miss that story? Lol...


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> I heard that video exists showing that Hillary threatened to kill James comey if he didn't absolve her of her crimes. Of course, the FBI is terrified of Hillary so they fell in line.
> 
> I read it in one of bass player or nelley's posts. I mean, I haven't read that but I'm sure they will claim that, if they haven't already.



lol what punishment does she have in store for rudy giuliani & the way he marshalled that alt-right cellule in the NYPD. You know, the sources blubbering to ex-military hulks about secret cannibalistic blood rituals.

.


----------



## sags

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Do you want to know how Trump reacts under pressure?
> 
> https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231613


LOL............It looks like Karl Denninger got into the whiskey a little early tonight.

What does he think this is........a Clint Eastwood spaghetti western ?

A Fist Full of Ballots, The Good, The Bad and The Donald, For a Few Voters More, The Outlaw Donald Trump, Orange Rider, High Plains Grifter, Two Mules for Donald Trump, Bronco Donnie, or Trump's Bluff.


----------



## sags

humble_pie said:


> lol what punishment does she have in store for rudy giuliani & the way he marshalled that alt-right cellule in the NYPD. You know, the sources blubbering to ex-military hulks about secret cannibalistic blood rituals.
> 
> .


Food for thought.......at one time Rudy Guliani had the power to decide if people went to prison or not.


----------



## olivaw

Mukhang pera said:


> Hey, way to deny the undeniable. You should be running for POTUS.
> 
> Do you deny being the author of this bit of tripe at post #1079?:
> 
> 
> 
> http://canadianmoneyforum.com/editpost.php?p=1330218&do=editpost
> How can you keep a straight face and say “the four clowns in this thread” is a reference to Trump?
> 
> It's people like you that have kept me on the sidelines. You engage in name-calling and belittling others, then denying it. Like indexxx said: You can't expect reasonable behaviour from unreasonable people.


I forgot about that, but it does not substantiate what you claimed. You said that I called everybody that I disagree with a clown. That is absolutely false, 

Post #1079 was in response to 20 pages of annoying Hillary Clinton health conspiracy theories - everything from talk Parkinsons disease to the need for pillows to prop her up to claims that she demanded to convert debates to sit down debates because she could barely walk. It was nonsense and I was frustrated.

But hey, you're a sensitive flower so stay on the sidelines. It would be a shame if somebody said something harsh or engaged in good natured teasing in a spirited political debate. 

I'll keep posting. You keep snarking. OK cupcake?


----------



## TomB19

We have quite a bit of typing to do, to take this thread to 500 pages by late Tuesday evening but I think we're up to it.


----------



## TomB19

I predict the next Democratic nominee will be the most corrupt, criminal, evil person to ever run for the office. Oh, and also... hitler. I'm not sure why but the dingbats like to throw that in. It's the cherry they use to top the smear sundae.

There will be plenty of evidence from sites like "absolutelytruth.com" and there will be a media wide conspiracy to not report it.

They are probably working on the "evidence" right now and will insert the name later.


----------



## olivaw

Do long posts get us to 500 pages quicker, or are pages added when a specific number of posts have been added?


----------



## TomB19

Number of posts. Keep it short.

If nelley's and/or bass stop posting, I will pick up that side of the discussion. Actually, they are probably a Perl script running on rush Limbaugh's laptop so they will be around unless rush goes on another crack binge and blows up his computer.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

sags said:


> LOL............It looks like Karl Denninger got into the whiskey a little early tonight.
> 
> What does he think this is........a Clint Eastwood spaghetti western ?
> 
> A Fist Full of Ballots, The Good, The Bad and The Donald, For a Few Voters More, The Outlaw Donald Trump, Orange Rider, High Plains Grifter, Two Mules for Donald Trump, Bronco Donnie, or Trump's Bluff.


So who was saying Trump was too unstable under pressure to be trusted with the Presidency? He saw some kind of disturbance even with the lights in his eyes and stood his ground until rushed off stage by Secret Service agents. 8 minutes later he continued his speech calmly as if nothing happened. Nothing wrong with his nerve.

See him leave the stage at 35:49 and return at 43:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DstxWc3Pbhs


----------



## olivaw

Two days until voting day and I still don't know who to vote for. I was hoping that Donald Trump would release his tax returns to help me decide.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> Two days until voting day and I still don't know who to vote for. I was hoping that Donald Trump would release his tax returns to help me decide.


I hear there is new evidence in the Benghazi case that will prove Hillary is the one who attacked the diplomatic facilities.


----------



## humble_pie

Mukhang pera said:


> Hey, way to deny the undeniable. You should be running for POTUS.
> 
> Do you deny being the author of this bit of tripe at post #1079?:
> 
> How can you keep a straight face and say “the four clowns in this thread” is a reference to Trump?
> 
> It's people like you that have kept me on the sidelines. You engage in name-calling and belittling others, then denying it. Like indexxx said: You can't expect reasonable behaviour from unreasonable people.




oh dear. Mukhang you haven't been on this forum very long, else you would have noticed by now that longtime member olivaw is an ever-civilized voice.

if perchance he addressed the trolls on here as "clown," the term would have been mild under the circumstances.

i noticed that you yourself skirted the conduct of the 2 scatologically obsessed trolls in this thread & instead you passed the accusation to yet another member, who had accurately posted that talking to the trolls on here is like trying to discuss with a drunk person.

the worrisome thing is how many americans are behind the trolls. How many are going to erupt out of the woodwork every hour over the next 48 hours to insist that donald trump has won victory as the next US president.

if trump doesn't win by vote count, they'll say this was because voting was rigged by the democrats. If trump doesn't win, they'll say that the media cooked up his loss.

watch .each:


.


----------



## sags

I don't think Hitler is involved in any way.

According to my calculations he will be 128 years old next April 20th.........and is living in an old folks home in Argentina.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> Mukhang you haven't been on this forum very long, else you would have noticed by now that longtime member olivaw is an ever-civilized voice.


The forum is rigged against olivaw.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> I forgot about that, but it does not substantiate what you claimed. You said that I called everybody that I disagree with a clown. That is absolutely false,
> 
> Post #1079 was in response to 20 pages of annoying Hillary Clinton health conspiracy theories - everything from talk Parkinsons disease to the need for pillows to prop her up to claims that she demanded to convert debates to sit down debates because she could barely walk. It was nonsense and I was frustrated.
> 
> But hey, you're a sensitive flower so stay on the sidelines. It would be a shame if somebody said something harsh or engaged in good natured teasing in a spirited political debate.
> 
> I'll keep posting. You keep snarking. OK cupcake?


Jeez Olivaw that last couple sentences made you sound like my evil twin.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> oh dear. Mukhang you haven't been on this forum very long, else you would have noticed by now that longtime member olivaw is an ever-civilized voice..


Thanks Humble. I try to attack the idea, not the person. I think that most of us do. Obviously, I get frustrated sometimes. Don't we all?


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Jeez Olivaw that last couple sentences made you sound like my evil twin.


Yeah, I'm trying to demonstrate some personal growth.


----------



## Nelley

humble_pie said:


> oh dear. Mukhang you haven't been on this forum very long, else you would have noticed by now that longtime member olivaw is an ever-civilized voice.
> 
> if perchance he addressed the trolls on here as "clown," the term would have been mild under the circumstances.
> 
> i noticed that you yourself skirted the conduct of the 2 scatologically obsessed trolls in this thread & instead you passed the accusation to yet another member, who had accurately posted that talking to the trolls on here is like trying to discuss with a drunk person.
> 
> the worrisome thing is how many americans are behind the trolls. How many are going to erupt out of the woodwork every hour over the next 48 hours to insist that donald trump has won victory as the next US president.
> 
> if trump doesn't win by vote count, they'll say this was because voting was rigged by the democrats. If trump doesn't win, they'll say that the media cooked up his loss.
> 
> watch .each:
> 
> 
> .


I have purchased the publishing rights to all your posts from the owner of this site-I will call the opus RAVINGS OF THE CAT LADY.


----------



## Mukhang pera

olivaw said:


> I forgot about that, but it does not substantiate what you claimed. You said that I called everybody that I disagree with a clown. That is absolutely false,


Kinda' mincing words are we not, olivaw? My exacts words were: Olivaw calls those who have a different opinion “clowns”. I did not use the word "everybody". Should I have said "Olivaw calls 4 of those who have a different opinion clowns"? 




olivaw said:


> But hey, you're a sensitive flower so stay on the sidelines. It would be a shame if somebody said something harsh or engaged in good natured teasing in a spirited political debate.
> 
> I'll keep posting. You keep snarking. OK cupcake?


You mistake my choice to stay on the sidelines for being a "sensitive flower". I posted to the thread only because HP took my expressed desire to see this thread relegated to the dustbin as an uncaring attitude towards the U.S. election. My reticence to post to the thread is unrelated to nonchalance or to undue sensitivity. It has everything to do with the reasons already expressed in response to HP.

So you keep posting, but I'll snark only as appropriate. OK pussycat?


----------



## TomB19

In some cases, I prefer to attack the person.

Nelley's, for example, is fun to attack. Nelley's gives as good as he takes and it is my belief that he enjoys the jousting.

In the case of bass player, I don't get the sense he is enjoying it as much so I try to offer him more respect. I believe bass is sincere in his beliefs and I respect that.

... But nelley's is here for our entertainment, as we are for his.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Number of posts. Keep it short.
> 
> If nelley's and/or bass stop posting, I will pick up that side of the discussion. Actually, they are probably a Perl script running on rush Limbaugh's laptop so they will be around unless rush goes on another crack binge and blows up his computer.



tomB i believe you have been quite wrong about nellie. You have said you believe that the nelliekins is posting out of sincere alt-right political belief.

but i beg to differ. I believe i recognize nellie on here as a former cmf member with a penchant for the kind of filth one finds in barnyards. She used to enjoy beating up her friends with baseball bats. Then she liked to give them something i'd blush to mention.

bref, nellie is a disturbed person. She escaped to this thread because it gave her the best chance of erupting many times every day with the scatological insults, with no fear of being banned. After all, this is canada. This thread is about a US election. Kind of a lawless no-man's-zone. Ready, aim, fire.

tomB i really cannot see you getting your jollies the same way.


.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley's sounds like someone who would be fun to meet on chat roulette.

I'm in!

Not sure why my phone always adds an apostrophe "s" after nelley's name. Maybe it's telling me she is possessive.


----------



## olivaw

Mukhang pera said:


> Kinda' mincing words are we not, olivaw? My exacts words were: Olivaw calls those who have a different opinion “clowns”. I did not use the word "everybody". Should I have said "Olivaw calls 4 of those who have a different opinion clowns"?
> So you keep posting, but I'll snark only as appropriate. OK pussycat?


Would have been more accurate. Regardless, I am sorry the thread does not meet your personal standards. Perhaps in 2020 you'll lay out some guidelines and we'll strive to meet them. Feel better, sweet cheeks?


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> I have purchased the publishing rights to all your posts from the owner of this site-I will call the opus RAVINGS OF THE CAT LADY.


How can you not love cats.........Sir Winston Smushface.

The young lady is delightfully funny too.......especially when the guy fixes her microphone.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> I have purchased the publishing rights to all your posts from the owner of this site-I will call the opus RAVINGS OF THE CAT LADY.



don't be silly, i've never owned a cat in my life

nor do you know how to purchase a thing (did you ever even understand that this is a financial forum)

.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Nelley's sounds like someone who would be fun to meet on chat roulette.


I saw a short film about video chat roulette. It seems like the type of thing that Anthony Weiner would enjoy.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Nelley's sounds like someone who would be fun to meet on chat roulette.
> 
> I'm in!
> 
> Not sure why my phone always adds an apostrophe "s" after nelley's name. Maybe it's telling me she is possessive.



perhaps chat with nelley's about the nice fresh neckties she likes to give .:frog: 


.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> don't be silly, i've never owned a cat in my life


I owned a cat once. I was a young man and I called it Pusskums. 

True story: When I told somebody the name, they asked if I had named my cat after the Russian poet? (Alexander Pushkin)
Also true: I changed the cats name to Pushkin and spent the next 15 years telling everybody that I had named my cat after the Russian poet.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> perhaps chat with nelley's about the nice fresh neckties she likes to give .:frog:
> 
> 
> .


I hope she "bleeches" down there.

Lol!


----------



## Mukhang pera

humble_pie said:


> don't be silly, i've never owned a cat in my life
> 
> nor do you know how to purchase a thing (did you ever even understand that this is a financial forum)
> 
> .


HP, time for you to own a cat. What is shown in the image below is now on its way to you, parcel pest. My treat.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> The forum is rigged against olivaw.



certainly not.

the only reason trolls nellie & bass have been allowed to survive on here is because they're working offshore. The forum is in canada but they are slandering & slagging on here in a 100% US thread.

take former cmf member *donald* for example. Do you remember donald? not a bad guy but he did obviously have a hard drug problem. Would occasionally go berserk. 

one fine week he went berserk & attacked justin trudeau. I mean threatened the prime minister of canada with physical violence. Just once.

boom! the donald was history. Banned just like that. I was impressed, how fast the PMO security detail was able to find donald's post here in cmf forum. Took em only a couple of days. Plus PMO securitiy has done the same with other social media advocates of violence against the prime minister. I can think of 2 offenders who were arrested in recent months, one in quebec, one in alberta. For nothing more than donald-type threats on social media.

however it appears that US politicians are a whole different ball game. We seem to be in a kind of no-man's-land.

the Toronto Star is majority owner of this forum at the moment. The Star itself, as a newspaper, would probably moderate out some of the riper anti-hillary comments that have appeared in this thread. But on here ... no action. Here it's possible to post the most twisted lies & the worst kind of threats against clinton, but as long as it's a canada-based social media, there is apparently nothing to intervene.

.


----------



## humble_pie

Mukhang pera said:


> HP, time for you to own a cat. What is shown in the image below is now on its way to you, parcel pest. My treat.



lol it'll be returned straight back to yourself. Don't forget that i have your address . each:


----------



## TomB19

As much as I have no respect for the lies and slander, I'm happy to have a place where people can express themselves, even if it involves lies and slander.

I didn't know the star owned this place. I'm surprised at the number of globe and mail citations, considering this.

Good on them. Objectivity isn't that common, these days.


----------



## olivaw

Now Trump is claims that the FBI falsely cleared Hillary Clinton. His argument is that it is impossible to review 650,000 emails in nine days. 

650,000 emails sounds like a lot but I can say from experience that 650K emails would not be difficult to review. Investigators and legal professionals have access to software that can quickly eliminate irrelevant and duplicate emails. Some human intervention is needed but the unlimited financial resources available to the FBI would have made short work of this. I am surprised that it took this long. The FBI must have been very careful indeed.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> I hope she "bleeches" down there.
> 
> Lol!



i think u got it


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> This election is Clinton vs Trump but this long thread is nothing but pro MSM posts vs anti MSM posts. You either accept the premise that the MSM is lying constantly or you don't-that is it. Clinton supporters overwhelmingly actually believe what is in the MSM or pretend to believe it. At this point IMO supporters of the premise of a fair and balanced MSM operating independently and objectively are like supporters of the premise of a 4000 year old Earth-it becomes more of an argument/debate because the non-supporters of the MSM have little or no respect-intellectually speaking- for the entire premise.


What I can't get over is the number of people who take whatever the MSM says as gospel and refuse to even look at anything else. There are lots of videos on Youtube recording events, you can compare what the news says someone said or did, to what they actually said or did, and judge for yourself if that source is telling the truth or not. If you do that you will see they have been making Trump look bad from the start.

There are lots of opinions and interpretations too. I started reading Scott Adams blog because I wanted to laugh at Dilbert one day and found out he had a unique way of looking at the campaign that turned out to be more insightful and accurate than the MSM. When they were baffled, enraged or confused by something Trump said, Adams saw it as part of a carefully thought out plan - and he turned out to be right. It turned out he was not just an amateur and a blowhard with no chance at the Republican nomination, he stitched up 16 professional politicians and secured the nomination.

So, I like to look at various opinions and news sources. Unfortunately I can't help stirring things up with new ideas sometimes and people hate that. Oh well who needs popularity lol.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> Now Trump is claims that the FBI falsely cleared Hillary Clinton. His argument is that it is impossible to review 650,000 emails in nine days.
> 
> 650,000 emails sounds like a lot but I can say from experience that 650K emails would not be difficult to review. Investigators and legal professionals have access to software that can quickly eliminate irrelevant and duplicate emails. Some human intervention is needed but the unlimited financial resources available to the FBI would have made short work of this. I am surprised that it took this long. The FBI must have been very careful indeed.


So why did it take a year to review the first 33,000? LOL never mind, now I'm just messing with you.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> As much as I have no respect for the lies and slander, I'm happy to have a place where people can express themselves, even if it involves lies and slander.
> 
> I didn't know the star owned this place. I'm surprised at the number of globe and mail citations, considering this.
> 
> Good on them. Objectivity isn't that common, these days.



up mainstream media, sole investigators & objective preservers of triple-checked accuracy & reason

tomB in your recent Obama video, did you notice obama saying that after he leaves the oval office, one of the issues he intends to mull over & work on is the balkanization of the media? he spoke of how, these days, every phreak with borderline disorder can post a talking head video in youtube & pretend it's a media source. This leads to a lot of uninformed folks believing total tommyrot.

.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> I hear there is new evidence in the Benghazi case that will prove Hillary is the one who attacked the diplomatic facilities.



i'm ready to hear how hillary planned the russian invasion of crimea.

i mean, all the world's best athletes were whooping it up in Sochi in february & march 2014. Vladimir Putin was swanning around the resort, posing in photo ops with the swankiest of athletic visitors. The head of canada's own olympic delegation even got to pose with vlad. Our poor fellow was gazing up in adoration like he was seeing the 2nd messiah.

the whole time, putin was masterminding the massing of russian troops & war materiel on the ukraine border. You remember those aerial photos that burst out in the media in mid-march/14? there were thousands of troops camped on the border, convoys of hundreds of truck, temporary sheds, shelters, airplane hangars, the works.

i've always asked myself how come the world was never told that russia was building its war machine not far from Sochi? i mean, there were satellites buzzing & spy radarships flying the whole time. Of course they had the aerial photographs. Were they thinking that the Olympics were too precious to disturb, so they'd let the athletes play while rome got ready to burn?

one could certainly make up a story that hillary colluded the whole thing with vladimir

.


----------



## olivaw

Watching Anderson Cooper on CNN this evening, it's as if the election is over. They're doing a post mortem on Donald Trump. 

If you play the CNN theme backwards do you hear the words "Don is dead"? 

I am a fan of Hillary but c'mon guys.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> There are lots of opinions and interpretations too. I started reading Scott Adams blog because I wanted to laugh at Dilbert one day and found out he had a unique way of looking at the campaign that turned out to be more insightful and accurate than the MSM. When they were baffled, enraged or confused by something Trump said, Adams saw it as part of a carefully thought out plan - and he turned out to be right. It turned out he was not just an amateur and a blowhard with no chance at the Republican nomination, he stitched up 16 professional politicians and secured the nomination.


Scott Adams knew what was going on months ago, and as you said, has some great insights. I look forward to his blogs.


----------



## Nelley

This thread is titled Who will win but we haven't made any electoral count predictions-how about Mon or Tue we make our predictions and we can see who nails it.


----------



## olivaw

My prediction:

Clinton: 293
Trump: 217
Stein, Johnson, Evan: 0

(lifted from Sabato)

and

- Anderson Cooper will get the giggles on election night
- Some Trump supporters will talk about revolution. Then they'lll go home and binge watch Dancing with the Stars. 
- Florida will take 48 hours to announce
- Kellyanne Conway will give Trump's twitter password back
- Millions of women will wear pantsuits. 
- TomB will finally work up the courage to ask nelley out on a date


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> So, I like to look at various opinions and news sources. Unfortunately I can't help stirring things up with new ideas sometimes and people hate that. Oh well who needs popularity lol.


You're likeable enough Rusty. LOL

Actually, I agree with what humble said upthread. You present reasonable arguments and a positive contribution. Some funny stuff too.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> - TomB will finally work up the courage to ask nelley out on a date


I'm going to ask her over to my place for a blumpkin.


----------



## humble_pie

.

an interesting peek behind the scenes at Mainstream Media shows how accurate & how reliable they are.

two hours ago the washington post had several breaking news stories - all taken from Associated Press - about syrian kurdish forces who announced yesterday afternoon that they have begun massing outside Raqqa in order to capture the key ISIL stronghold in northern syria.

the articles said that the US, britain & france have pledged to aid the syrian kurds, who are members of the YPG, or kurdish peoples' protection units.

“I welcome today’s announcement by the SDF that the operation to free Raqqa from ISIL’s barbaric grip has begun,” U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter reportedly told the associated press.

however, minutes later, all the links to these articles had failed. It appeared that the washington post had pulled all the stories.

why pulled? probably not because they were wrong. Probably because more details needed to be re-confirmed, re-checked, re-edited. Possibly because the timing of the stories was premature. Possibly because the quote from US secretary Carter had to be double-re-confirmed.

such is the care of mainstream media in presenting its stories accurately, reliably, correctly.

a fringe media would have posted such a story casually, without double-checking. The story would have been maybe true, maybe partially true, maybe not true at all.

flash forward 2 hours, to 1:45 am on monday 7 november/16 & the links are working again.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...46-53db57f0e351_story.html?tid=pm_world_pop_b

.

the kurdish fighters announce the long-awaited campaign to liberate Raqqa:

.


----------



## indexxx

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/do...port-says-2016-11-06?mod=MW_story_top_stories

I like what Obama had to say- "if somebody can’t handle a Twitter account, they can’t handle the nuclear codes,"


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> So why did it take a year to review the first 33,000? LOL never mind, now I'm just messing with you.


Do you seriously think that 650k emails would not be either dozens of duplicates each or mostly spam? Do some math. Ten years of emails is 3.6k days. Do you think there were 200 substantive emails on a daily basis? I would not be surprised if 600k of the emails were for boner pills and penny stocks.


----------



## wraphter

indexxx said:


> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/do...port-says-2016-11-06?mod=MW_story_top_stories
> 
> I like what Obama had to say- "if somebody can’t handle a Twitter account, they can’t handle the nuclear codes,"


If someone can't handle an email account, they can't handle the nuclear codes.

Maybe she will give the briefcase to her cleaning lady to look after?


----------



## new dog

Of course the mainstream media is going to be very careful and check sources when they are allowed to run a story Humble. When the story doesn't reflect well on Hillary, US or whatever then they will do the minimum, spin, deflect or try not to report the event at all. This is what we all really see when watching much of the mainstream media.

Here is something from wikileaks on CNN DNC setting up Trump questions.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/w...-on-questions-for-trump-cruz/article/2606651#!


----------



## humble_pie

new dog said:


> Of course the mainstream media is going to be very careful and check sources when they are allowed to run a story Humble. When the story doesn't reflect well on Hillary, US or whatever then they will do the minimum, spin, deflect or try not to report the event at all. This is what we all really see when watching much of the mainstream media.



the above might be all that you are able to see yourself dogcom. Me i see entire stories in accurate 3-D technicolour & i get a lot from reliable media such as the above-mentioned washington post, which was busy around midnight EST last night, double-checking what was happening out of Raqqa.

dog have you ever considered that it's the large blinkers you're wearing that might be preventing you from being properly observant? it's a pity to have to limit one's scope to the likes of zerohedge ...


.


----------



## humble_pie

.

world markets rise sharply on clinton news while russia's micex is down a mere 6 points.

meanwhile the moscow exchange says it will host a russian investment forum in new york city on november 15th. We'll know who's occupying the oval office. Russsian securities might be looking good.


_" Moscow, 7 October 2016 -- Moscow Exchange (ticker MOEX), Russia's main securities exchange group, will host the Moscow Exchange Forum - New York Session on 15 November 2016 at the Waldorf Astoria.

The conference brings together senior policymakers, corporate CEOs, institutional investors, brokers and other financial professionals to discuss current opportunities and challenges on Russia's capital markets."_


http://moex.com/n13982/?nt=201


.


----------



## bass player

Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe has granted voting rights to as many as 60,000 convicted felons just in time for them to register to vote, nearly five times more than previously reported and enough to win the state for his long-time friend, Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton.

*McAuliffe sought to allow all of Virginia’s estimated 200,000 felons to vote, but state courts said each individual felon’s circumstances must be weighed. To get around that, McAuliffe used a mechanical autopen to rapidly sign thousands of letters, as if he had personally reviewed them*, even as his office was saying the total was 13,000.

Now, The Daily Caller News Foundation Investigative Group has learned that McAuliffe – who managed Clinton’s unsuccessful 2008 presidential campaign – churned out five times as many letters before the registration deadline than publicly claimed:

http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/06/e...ardons-60000-felons-enough-to-swing-election/


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> Do you seriously think that 650k emails would not be either dozens of duplicates each or mostly spam? Do some math. Ten years of emails is 3.6k days. Do you think there were 200 substantive emails on a daily basis? I would not be surprised if 600k of the emails were for boner pills and penny stocks.


I may not get or send 200 emails a day, and you may not get or send 200 emails a day, but we do not hold cabinet positions in the US government. We also do not have a staff constantly keeping up to date on our behalf.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Let's face it, it's in the bag for Hillary no matter what happens. So we can look forward to a 4 year extension of the Obama administration, which was an 8 year extension of the Bush administration. Looks like those poor bastards in Guantanamo Bay, who still have not been convicted of any crime or even charged, are never going to see daylight. Meanwhile the wars in the Middle East go on.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> So why did it take a year to review the first 33,000? LOL never mind, now I'm just messing with you.


Maybe it took that long before because they didn't have the best friend of Hillary campaign chair John Podesta reviewing them like they did this time??


----------



## mordko

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Looks like those poor bastards in Guantanamo Bay, who still have not been convicted of any crime or even charged, are never going to see daylight.


Right, but it's not all good news.

In reality most of the Guantanamo detainees have been released. Hundreds of those released returned to terrorism while most of the rest have been making themselves busy promoting islamism/killing gays/beating women (e.g. "Cage").


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

What are you, an Islamophobe? What have you got against diversity?


----------



## TomB19

Canada has 35m people. The government, under Justin Trudeau, has set a policy to pump up immigration to a level that will achieve 100m by 2100.

Given that immigration will come from countries that universally have different and objectively worse social policy than we do, Canada is going to see big changes and not for the better.

Ralph Goodale is my MP. I will not vote for him. He will get in. Justin will get in. It is going to happen.

Embrace it. It is the will of Allah.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I know. With any luck I will be dead long before then. The rest of you, I suggest you grow a beard and set your clocks back 500 years.


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> Canada has 35m people. The government, under Justin Trudeau, has set a policy to pump up immigration to a level that will achieve 100m by 2100.
> 
> Given that immigration will come from countries that universally have different and objectively worse social policy than we do, Canada is going to see big changes and not for the better.
> 
> Ralph Goodale is my MP. I will not vote for him. He will get in. Justin will get in. It is going to happen.
> 
> Embrace it. It is the will of Allah.


And with increased Middle East immigration comes increased risk of terrorism even if only a small proportion engage in this activity
and the majority are very fine people indeed.


And with increased immigration comes a shift in demographics which leads to a shift in political power.


Embrace it. It is the will of political correctness.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Canada has 35m people. The government, under Justin Trudeau, has set a policy to pump up immigration to a level that will achieve 100m by 2100.
> 
> Given that immigration will come from countries that universally have different and objectively worse social policy than we do, Canada is going to see big changes and not for the better.
> 
> Ralph Goodale is my MP. I will not vote for him. He will get in. Justin will get in. It is going to happen.
> 
> Embrace it. It is the will of Allah.


OTOH the immigrants had to move-they didn't just stay in their shithole countries and say it is going down the tubes-they got the hell out of there to a better deal-so if Canada follows the same path then Canadians will have to move-that is it-we don't own this country-we live here. Also, it is very likely there will always be nice enclaves in this country no matter how bad it gets-cheer up.


----------



## Nelley

The thread is getting too negative-here is a positive outlook-if Crooked Hillary wins they say the big players won't slam the stock market-at least not this week-which is good for all of us-if Trump wins we can all feel that for once good triumphed over evil-which is quite uncommon-so either way we win.


----------



## TomB19

Hey nelley. Let's celebrate with a blumpkin.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Canada has 35m people. The government, under Justin Trudeau, has set a policy to pump up immigration to a level that will achieve 100m by 2100.
> 
> Given that immigration will come from countries that universally have different and objectively worse social policy than we do, Canada is going to see big changes and not for the better.
> 
> Ralph Goodale is my MP. I will not vote for him. He will get in. Justin will get in. It is going to happen.
> 
> Embrace it. It is the will of Allah.




tomB the above is a crock & you know it. Why you posting baloney like this?

here's your source. It's not any kind of gummint immigration policy. It's just a report from the conference board of canada which the gummint has been studying in order to help refine its projections.

it's *not* 100 million immigrants by 2010. It's 100 million canadians by 2100, including some immigrants.

please. You don't really want to go on record as insisting that all other countries "universally" have "objectively worse social policy than we do," do you?

i mean, this is a finance chat board so it attracts more than its fair share of rightwing bigots, but still ...


https://www.thestar.com/news/immigr...rt-economic-growth-amid-aging-population.html


.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> OTOH the immigrants had to move-they didn't just stay in their shithole countries



do go on .:frog:

i'm timidly admiring you in your nice enclave, from my far-off quarters in the shithole


.


----------



## olivaw

If Trump manages to pull off a victory, he will *appoint Rudy Giuliani and Newt Gingrich to cabinet*. I'm all in favour of giving senior citizens productive work but these two septuagenarians are too cringeworthy to be involved in cabinet. They're Mr. Crazy and Mr. Cranky.

I hope I haven't offended nelley with my ageism again.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Humble I think the phrase "achieve 100 million" refers to "Canada has 35m"

The 100m policy is being seriously considered at the highest levels of Canadian government. Given that it is foolish, counterproductive, and against the interests of all Canadians I predict they will implement it.

Can you tell me which countries have objectively better social policies than Canada?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

At the present time Canada's population is about 20% immigrant, or 6 million immigrant and 30 million Canadian born. Add 65 million to that, in order to get the 100 million figure, and you have 70% immigrant or Canadians become a minority in their own country.

Please explain to me why European colonialism is bad but this is ok?


----------



## olivaw

*PredictIT* is a trading market for the US election. Winning shares are settled at $1, losing shares expire worthless.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> If Trump manages to pull off a victory, he will *appoint Rudy Giuliani and Newt Gingrich to cabinet*. I'm all in favour of giving senior citizens productive work but these two septuagenarians are too cringeworthy to be involved in cabinet. They're Mr. Crazy and Mr. Cranky.
> 
> I hope I haven't offended nelley with my ageism again.


Why should I be offended by your posts? You are simply repeating what you are told over and over-I have read lots of your posts and I have yet to be surprised by even one-I have no idea if these are your ideas or just the herd ideas because the two line up perfectly.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Humble I think the phrase "achieve 100 million" refers to "Canada has 35m"
> 
> The 100m policy is being seriously considered at the highest levels of Canadian government. Given that it is foolish, counterproductive, and against the interests of all Canadians I predict they will implement it.
> 
> Can you tell me which countries have objectively better social policies than Canada?


Not true at all-example-if you were Galen Weston you would obviously make a ton more money with 100 million than 35 million Canadians-so you wouldn't consider it foolish or counterproductive.


----------



## james4beach

Based on Iowa Electronic Markets (betting market) and the Mexicon peso, odds of a Clinton win just skyrocketed today. From approximately 60% odds on weekend to over 75% now ... almost a sure thing.

Stocks up strongly also a result of likely Clinton win

Question now is whether it's all baked in, or if stocks will keep rallying once Clinton wins


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> Not true at all-example-if you were Galen Weston you would obviously make a ton more money with 100 million than 35 million Canadians-so you wouldn't consider it foolish or counterproductive.


And Galen Weston doesn't have to live in Canada. I wish I knew where he thinks he is going to move to.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> At the present time Canada's population is about 20% immigrant, or 6 million immigrant and 30 million Canadian born. Add 65 million to that, in order to get the 100 million figure, and you have 70% immigrant or Canadians become a minority in their own country.




rusty for an option trader i am surprised at you. You are projecting that the number of canadians will remain fixed at 36 million for the next 84 years. Never any more, never any less. No gamma theta vega. Just 100 delta day after day, for 30,660 days non-stop.

the above mistake next causes you to imagine that an increasing population shortfall on the way to a total goal of 100 million will mean recruiting 65,000,000 immigrants. Across 84 years. Sixty-five million exactly. No more, no less.

however this number is too tight as well, since immigrants - like old stock itself - might multiply or die off. Might grow in number or shrink in number. Might be annihilated by nuclear war or by an ebola plague.


.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> And Galen Weston doesn't have to live in Canada. I wish I knew where he thinks he is going to move to.


IMO it is not that simple-over the last 40 years obviously Canada has gone downhill but look at places like Oakville, Burlington, NOTL, Victoria, etc.etc.-there will always be nice enclaves even when most of Canada is basically Brampton.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> Might be annihilated by nuclear war or by an ebola plague.


... or a Trump presidency.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> ... most of Canada is basically Brampton.



lol the basic edition prejuditch witchbitch


(signed)
brampton brown sugar


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Why should I be offended by your posts? You are simply repeating what you are told over and over-I have read lots of your posts and I have yet to be surprised by even one-I have no idea if these are your ideas or just the herd ideas because the two line up perfectly.


You seem angry. Here's a pretty picture to cheer you up.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> You seem angry. Here's a pretty picture to cheer you up.
> 
> View attachment 12634


Hey Olivaw- if I was angry at you I would be angry at 90% of the people I know. I am not angry at 90% of the people I know-I don't understand your pride at being a herd animal but you are far from alone obviously.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> IMO it is not that simple-over the last 40 years obviously Canada has gone downhill but look at places like Oakville, Burlington, NOTL, Victoria, etc.etc.-there will always be nice enclaves even when most of Canada is basically Brampton.


Oh yes... Bramladesh. I lived there for a couple of years.

I was young, at the time. When I first got there, I played football with the neighborhood teenagers. We had a good time until their parents forbid them to play with me. I was one of the only white people on the block.

Two of the guys I liked the most hung out with me a few times after that. They told me their parents weren't OK with them hanging out with a white guy but we hung out when the parents were out of town. Really nice guys. True young gentlemen. Hopefully, the generations open up as quickly as those families.

Then there was the goat sacrifice. No kidding. A sacrifice.

We noticed a smell. It was the type of smell that would alter your consciousness.

The police were called and they discovered a family had sacrificed a goat in their garage for some sort of celebration. Subsequently, a court order was issued for them to not butcher animals in the garage.

A few weeks later, someone on the block noticed another goat when they opened the garage. Police came out and, apparently, they said it was a pet. lol!

I still recall that smell. It was the type of smell that would knock $50K off of real estate values.

Oddly, I liked life in Brampton. I met some nice people I still maintain a distant friendship with.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Oh yes... Bramladesh. I lived there for a couple of years.
> 
> I was young, at the time. When I first got there, I played football with the neighborhood teenagers. We had a good time until their parents forbid them to play with me. I was one of the only white people on the block.
> 
> Two of the guys I liked the most hung out with me a few times after that. They told me their parents weren't OK with them hanging out with a white guy but we hung out when the parents were out of town. Really nice guys. True young gentlemen. Hopefully, the generations open up as quickly as those families.
> 
> Then there was the goat sacrifice. No kidding. A sacrifice.
> 
> We noticed a smell. It was the type of smell that would alter your consciousness.
> 
> The police were called and they discovered a family had sacrificed a goat in their garage for some sort of celebration. Subsequently, a court order was issued for them to not butcher animals in the garage.
> 
> A few weeks later, someone on the block noticed another goat when they opened the garage. Police came out and, apparently, they said it was a pet. lol!
> 
> I still recall that smell. It was the type of smell that would knock $50K off of real estate values.
> 
> Oddly, I liked life in Brampton. I met some nice people I still maintain a distant friendship with.


OK-you and Humble have convinced me-Brampton is PARADISE-if I win the 50 million dollar lottery I am moving to Brampton for sure-this country Canada should aspire to be just like Brampton-I am not gonna sacrifice goats but I will hire somebody to sacrifice goats for me.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Hey Olivaw- if I was angry at you I would be angry at 90% of the people I know. I am not angry at 90% of the people I know-I don't understand your pride at being a herd animal but you are far from alone obviously.


No doubt nelley, you fancy yourself an independent thinker but parroting conspiracy theories on an Internet forum doesn't really demonstrate independence. It comes across more as gullibility. 'Nuff said?


----------



## Nelley

Nelley said:


> OK-you and Humble have convinced me-Brampton is PARADISE-if I win the 50 million dollar lottery I am moving to Brampton for sure-this country Canada should aspire to be just like Brampton-I am not gonna sacrifice goats but I will hire somebody to sacrifice goats for me.


Few know this but Brampton is home to Galen Weston, John Tory and Boy Trudeau has a summer home there.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> No doubt nelley, you fancy yourself an independent thinker but parroting conspiracy theories on an Internet forum doesn't really demonstrate independence. It comes across more as gullibility. 'Nuff said?


Like you say-PUTIN DID IT.


----------



## humble_pie

.

brampton would be the kind of growing-up puts hair on a boy's chest

except i imagine tomB was a kid who was born with haironhischest

.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I may not get or send 200 emails a day, and you may not get or send 200 emails a day, but we do not hold cabinet positions in the US government. We also do not have a staff constantly keeping up to date on our behalf.


She was only Secretary of State for 4 years. None of the emails were addressed to, or sent by her.


----------



## Mukhang pera

I received this email from a Brampton elementary school teacher in January 2013:

Roll Call In A Brampton, Ontario Public School

The teacher began calling out the names of the pupils:

  "Mustafa Al Eih Zeri?"........ "Here"
"Achmed El Kabul?"............ "Here"
"Fatima Al Hayek?"............. "Here" 
"Ali Abdul Olmi?"................ "Here" 
"Mohammed Bin Kadir?"....... "Here" 
"Ali Son al Len” - silence in the classroom.  "Ali Son al Len" - continued silence as everyone looked around the room.   The teacher repeated the call.   A girl stood up and said: "Sorry teacher. I think that's me. It's pronounced Alison Allen.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> Like you say-PUTIN DID IT.


Speaking of Putin - will he cry himself to sleep if Hillary wins? Will you?


----------



## andrewf

TomB19 said:


> Canada has 35m people. The government, under Justin Trudeau, has set a policy to pump up immigration to a level that will achieve 100m by 2100.
> 
> Given that immigration will come from countries that universally have different and objectively worse social policy than we do, Canada is going to see big changes and not for the better.
> 
> Ralph Goodale is my MP. I will not vote for him. He will get in. Justin will get in. It is going to happen.
> 
> Embrace it. It is the will of Allah.


Canada's pop was 8 million or so in 1915. So, the government's policy is slower immigration over the next 100 years (3x) vs the previous 100 years (4.5x). Of course, it is not government policy to target 100 million over the next century. It was proposed by academics/think tanks.


----------



## Nelley

Mukhang pera said:


> I received this email from a Brampton elementary school teacher in January 2013:
> 
> Roll Call In A Brampton, Ontario Public School
> 
> The teacher began calling out the names of the pupils:
> 
> "Mustafa Al Eih Zeri?"........ "Here"
> "Achmed El Kabul?"............ "Here"
> "Fatima Al Hayek?"............. "Here"
> "Ali Abdul Olmi?"................ "Here"
> "Mohammed Bin Kadir?"....... "Here"
> "Ali Son al Len” - silence in the classroom.  "Ali Son al Len" - continued silence as everyone looked around the room.   The teacher repeated the call.   A girl stood up and said: "Sorry teacher. I think that's me. It's pronounced Alison Allen.


Not bad-I am glad you told that joke not me-the snowflakes here are frantically calling the RCMP on you at this moment.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Speaking of Putin - will he cry himself to sleep if Hillary wins? Will you?


I never said I wanted the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet to lose-not as far as I remember-here is your assignment-go over all my posts and see if I ever said I wanted the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet to lose this election.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> At the present time Canada's population is about 20% immigrant, or 6 million immigrant and 30 million Canadian born. Add 65 million to that, in order to get the 100 million figure, and you have 70% immigrant or Canadians become a minority in their own country.
> 
> Please explain to me why European colonialism is bad but this is ok?


Do the same math on 1915 Canada's population. If they had 20% immigrant population (not sure exact statistic) and pop grew from 8 mil to 35, we must have >80% immigrant population today.


----------



## olivaw

^ It's amusing watching the descendants of immigrants trying to top each other with their anti-immigration rhetoric


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> I never said I wanted the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet to lose-not as far as I remember-here is your assignment-go over all my posts and see if I ever said I wanted the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet to lose this election.


So what colour pantsuit will you be wearing tomorrow? #pantsuitnation


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Canada's pop was 8 million or so in 1915. So, the government's policy is slower immigration over the next 100 years (3x) vs the previous 100 years (4.5x). Of course, it is not government policy to target 100 million over the next century. It was proposed by academics/think tanks.


Jeez you are so logical-so Canada population following your Tesla level of logic:

2016-35
2116-105
2216-315
2316-945
2416-2.835 billion
2516-8.505 billion
2616-25.515 billion

looks OK to me so far.


----------



## andrewf

You can place your bets about global population in 600 years as you please. My comment was merely on Canada's population growth needing to slow over the next 100 years to only reach 100 million.


----------



## olivaw

I'm seeing the Dow up around 2% and the TSX up about 1% today. 

My tech stocks appear to be up sharply. 

If Hillary wins tomorrow, I believe that the gains will hold and we may even see another two or three points on the week. 

If she loses to the clown, I believe that we'll probably lose about five percent over the next week,


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> rusty for an option trader i am surprised at you. You are projecting that the number of canadians will remain fixed at 36 million for the next 84 years. Never any more, never any less. No gamma theta vega. Just 100 delta day after day, for 30,660 days non-stop.
> 
> the above mistake next causes you to imagine that an increasing population shortfall on the way to a total goal of 100 million will mean recruiting 65,000,000 immigrants. Across 84 years. Sixty-five million exactly. No more, no less.
> 
> however this number is too tight as well, since immigrants - like old stock itself - might multiply or die off. Might grow in number or shrink in number. Might be annihilated by nuclear war or by an ebola plague.
> 
> 
> .


It's not my projection, it's the government's. Give them **** if you don't like it. I would like to know what the hell they are thinking.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> You are projecting that the number of canadians will remain fixed at 36 million for the next 84 years. Never any more, never any less. No gamma theta vega. Just 100 delta day after day, for 30,660 days non-stop.
> 
> the above mistake next causes you to imagine that an increasing population shortfall on the way to a total goal of 100 million will mean recruiting 65,000,000 immigrants. Across 84 years. Sixty-five million exactly. No more, no less.
> 
> however this number is too tight as well, since immigrants - like old stock itself - might multiply or die off. Might grow in number or shrink in number. Might be annihilated by nuclear war or by an ebola plague.
> 
> 
> .


You seems unaware of the fact that the fertility rate of Canadians is below 2.1 which is replacement.




> Over the past 150 years, Canada has changed from a high-fertility society where women had many children during their lives to a low-fertility society where women are having fewer children overall and at increasingly older ages.
> 
> *Despite some fluctuations, the total fertility rate in Canada has been below the replacement level for over 40 years*. In fact, 1971 was the last year the replacement-level fertility of 2.1 children per woman was reached—meaning that couples, on average, had produced enough children to replace themselves.
> 
> In 2011, the total fertility rate was 1.61 children per woman, up slightly from the record low of 1.51 about a decade earlier.


Immigrant women have a higher fertility rate than non-immigrant Canadian women.  



> New immigrants to Canada are much more likely to have babies than their native-born counterparts.
> 
> Immigrant women who have spent five years in Canada “have almost twice as many children of pre-school age (as) the average Canadian-born woman,” according to an extensive study by two noted economists.
> 
> The University of Waterloo’s Ana Ferrer and Princeton University’s Alicia Adsera pored over two decades of Statistics Canada census data to reach their conclusion.
> 
> There are major birthrate differences depending on newcomers’ country of origin: The women who have the highest birthrates tend to be from Africa, Pakistan and India. The women who have the lowest birthrates tend to be from Europe, the U.S. and East Asia.
> 
> “African and South Asian women show a substantially higher fraction of children under five than similar native-born women,” write Ferrer and Adsera. They note that women from the Middle East quickly start out having babies after arriving in Canada, but eventually slow down to closer to the national norm.
> 
> In contrast, there is a relatively low fertility rate among women who arrive from Europe, the U.S. and the countries of East Asia, such as China, South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan.
> 
> The authors speculate that women between ages 18 and 45 from European and East Asian countries may worry more about what economists call the “opportunity costs of children,” since having children often reduces chances to increase income.


There is strength in numbers because in a democracy everyone can vote.So the size of the 'original' population ,with a fertility rate below replacement will decrease and the size of the immigrant group will dramatically increase due to more immigration and a fertility rate above replacement .

This will have political implications.

My sources were Stats Can and the Vancouver Sun.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Am I the only one who remembers when we were supposed to be worried about the population explosion and the bad effects of overpopulation? Now the more advanced countries like Canada, the US, Europe and Japan have solved the problem and are stable or shrinking in population and all of a sudden that's bad. I don't know what the hell these people want.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> She was only Secretary of State for 4 years. None of the emails were addressed to, or sent by her.


The most recent investigation revealed one thing only...that there were none of Hillary's classified emails on pervert Weiner's computer. Yet, some people are acting like this cleared her of ALL wrongdoing, lol.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> ^ It's amusing watching the descendants of immigrants trying to top each other with their anti-immigration rhetoric


Being against unchecked immigration doesn't make someone a racist.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Being against unchecked immigration doesn't make someone a racist.


Racist? Who said anything about racist?


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> Canada's pop was 8 million or so in 1915. So, the government's policy is slower immigration over the next 100 years (3x) vs the previous 100 years (4.5x). Of course, it is not government policy to target 100 million over the next century. It was proposed by academics/think tanks.


This tells us nothing about the assumed rate of immigration unless you have more information. It's not the only factor responsible for population growth. Birth rates and life expectancy also contribute. Our birth rate is a lot lower than during the last 100 years and the change in life expectancy is also less than in the 20th century. Will likely reduce further if the new immigrants start blowing everyone up at the same rate as Iraqis and Syrians. 

I would guess they are assuming much higher rate of immigration over the next 100 years to get to 100 mil.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Racist? Who said anything about racist?


Are you suggesting that the Democrat belief is that those who support a US/Mexico wall and those who want stronger vetting of immigrants from some middle east countries are not racist? :congratulatory:


----------



## Spudd

wraphter said:


> So the size of the 'original' population ,with a fertility rate below replacement will decrease and the size of the immigrant group will dramatically increase due to more immigration and a fertility rate above replacement .


However, the children of those immigrants will not be immigrants, they will be native born Canadians.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> The most recent investigation revealed one thing only...that there were none of Hillary's classified emails on pervert Weiner's computer. Yet, some people are acting like this cleared her of ALL wrongdoing, lol.


Yep. She's good. After all the multitudes of totally false accusations, this final one in the last few minutes (subjectively) takes the cake.

The only question left is has it done enough damage to hand the Senate back to the GoP.


----------



## bass player

Spudd said:


> However, the children of those immigrants will not be immigrants, they will be native born Canadians.


Of course they will be. The problem arises when some of those "new" native born Canadians demand that their barbaric cultural practices from their homeland be accepted by the rest of Canada.

Let me ask you this...do you travel? If so, what other countries do you like to visit, and why?


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> Yep. She's good. After all the multitudes of totally false accusations, this final one in the last few minutes (subjectively) takes the cake.


The accusations were not proven to be false. In fact, it's exactly the opposite....James Comey stood in front of cameras and pointed out several laws that she deliberately broke. The fact that no charges were laid doesn't change the fact that she deliberately broke the law and then tried to cover it up.


----------



## Spudd

bass player said:


> Of course they will be. The problem arises when some of those "new" native born Canadians demand that their barbaric cultural practices from their homeland be accepted by the rest of Canada.
> 
> Let me ask you this...do you travel? If so, what other countries do you like to visit, and why?


I knew that would be the answer, but in my experience, I find that most children of immigrants are more like Canadians than like their immigrant parents as far as barbaric cultural practices go. How many children of immigrants do you know? I know a lot. Most put up with their parents' wishes and ways while they live at home but as soon as they're out on their own, they live more like Canadians.


----------



## wraphter

Spudd said:


> However, the children of those immigrants will not be immigrants, they will be native born Canadians.


That was just where the trouble started in Europe,in the second generation ,the young men who had an identity crisis and didn't know whether to identify with their parents' group or the larger European society. These were the young men who were responsible for the recent terrorism in France and Belgium, And as the population of immigrants becomes larger , the more difficult it becomes for the authorities to surveil them. 

Look at the European experience with Muslim immigration. Do we really want to repeat it here?
Donald Trump is knocking at the White House door because of his strong message on immigration. Do you think all those millions
of his followers are terrible people?


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> The accusations were not proven to be false. In fact, it's exactly the opposite....James Comey stood in front of cameras and pointed out several laws that she deliberately broke. The fact that no charges were laid doesn't change the fact that she deliberately broke the law and then tried to cover it up.


The accusations were not limited to the email thing.

You guys were saying basically that she was a Weekend at Bernie's carcass, that she had a doctor on hand with an epipen with mysterious substances in it, that she was a full-blown murderer, that she had the FBI in her pocket, that she had the entire media in her pocket, false claims about their nonprofit charity, etc etc, all debunked.

The last thing you had was doing emails on a secure server which was already in place, an error to which she admitted, but there was no evidence of intentional wrongdoing, and now, after further intensive investigation upon opening Wiener's laptop, there still is none.

What I see is a woman who has dedicated her life to public service, and through her foundation, is working towards 'improving global health, increasing opportunity for girls and women, reducing childhood obesity and preventable diseases, creating economic opportunity and growth, and helping communities address the effects of climate change'*

* https://www.clintonfoundation.org/about


----------



## indexxx

By the way- just found this out today. It appears you can bet on the US election on BC Lotto:

https://www.playnow.com/sports/other-sports/politics/us-politics?loc=happeningNow


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Trump will have zero impact in terms of policies simply because he does not have any that he can stick to. In recent times he is the first candidate who got this far by openly promoting conspiracy theories.


John McCain did little to dispel the idea that Barack Obama was a Kenyan. In fact, he didn't push back until someone at a McCain rally called Obama a Kenyan terrorist. That was further than he could go so he stepped in and said Obama was a patriot. I don't know if that event cost him the election. I suspect Sarah Palin hurt him more but I'm sure it hurt him.

He should have gone along with it. Stupid ethics.


----------



## bass player

Obama blatantly encourages illegals to vote by telling them not to worry...immigration won't be checking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfgEvgVC6Qs


----------



## wraphter

mrPPincer said:


> Yep. She's good. After all the multitudes of totally false accusations, this final one in the last few minutes (subjectively) takes the cake.
> 
> The only question left is has it done enough damage to hand the Senate back to the GoP.


The accusations regarding classified emails were true.
She lied to the American people when she said she never sent/received classified emails.

On July 5th Comey said she had classified emails on her server ,over 110 in 52
chains,3 others, and 2000 upclassified.

She said in the FBI interview over 30 times that she couldn't remember various aspects of the emails, couldn't remember being briefed etc.
She said it was because of her concussion. 
She lied to the Congressional Committee.

She lied repeatedly to the American public about emails just like her husband lied to the American people about sex.


----------



## mrPPincer

^Pretty thin gravy over a pile of mashed nothing in terms of accusations imho


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> ^Pretty thin gravy over a pile of mashed nothing imho


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfgEvgVC6Qs


----------



## mrPPincer

^I can't speak to the various levels of citizenship one might attain as a worker in the US and what is required to vote, but it seems to me that any citizen that is a part of the working fabric of the country *should* be entitled to that right.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> ^I can't speak to the various levels of citizenship one might attain as a worker in the US and what is required to vote, but it seems to me that any citizen that is a part of the working fabric of the country *should* be entitled to that right.


Legal citizens can vote. Non-citizens can't vote. What part of that don't you understand?


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> ^Pretty thin gravy over a pile of mashed nothing in terms of accusations imho


Yeah. The Republican machine is awesome at fabricating an issue and then associating it with a single word or term. "Benghazi" "e-mail"

How many people know what these issues are? They just hear "e-mail" and think, "that's some bad stuff" but if you ask them about it, they won't have the first idea what the issue is. The more informed folks will talk about 33K confidential email or the Republican folks will talk about 650K confidential email. ... and that's the ones who are closer to knowing something.

How many people, even in this thread, understand why the FBI didn't have to read 650K email when they found a few thousand among Weiner's dick pics? Either they are deliberately being ignorant or they really are clueless.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Legal citizens can vote. Non-citizens can't vote. What part of that don't you understand?


I'm not so sure it's that black and white. 
As I understand it there are people born, raised and legally educated in the USA that have some paperwork issues.

Don't you think it's archaic to keep a whole sector of the labour force locked into a situation of second-class citizen, possibly mitigated to doing only cash jobs at slave labour wages w/o a voice? I do.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> I'm not so sure it's that black and white.
> As I understand it there are people born, raised and legally educated in the USA that have some paperwork issues.
> 
> Don't you think it's archaic to keep a whole sector of the labout force locked into a situation of second-class citizen, possibly mitigated to doing only cash jobs at slave labour wages w/o a voice? I do.


Actually, it is black and white. If you are a legal citizen, you can vote. If you are not, then you apply through the proper channels, and if accepted, then you can vote just like any other citizen.

People in the country illegally are not "second class citizens", they are not citizens at all. That's exactly why they are forced to take low paying jobs....because they have no legal right to be in the US. Their illegality is what creates the circumstance of low wages.


----------



## TomB19

mrPPincer said:


> Don't you think it's archaic to keep a whole sector of the labour force locked into a situation of second-class citizen, possibly mitigated to doing only cash jobs at slave labour wages w/o a voice? I do.


At least these people weren't captured and brought over from africa. These people, in some ways, volunteered to be a subordinate class. ... Not that a lot is being done to help them become peers.

In America, some men are created equal.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Hillary and her "vast right wing conspiracy"  remind me of guys I used to know who were always saying "the cops are picking on me".


----------



## mordko

mrPPincer said:


> I'm not so sure it's that black and white.
> As I understand it there are people born, raised and legally educated in the USA that have some paperwork issues.
> 
> Don't you think it's archaic to keep a whole sector of the labour force locked into a situation of second-class citizen, possibly mitigated to doing only cash jobs at slave labour wages w/o a voice? I do.


It really is very archaic. Modern approaches involve sending any caught illegals to prisons for six months and closing down any company that employs them. That's what they do in Europe these days.


----------



## bass player

mrPPincer said:


> I'm not so sure it's that black and white.
> As I understand it there are people born, raised and legally educated in the USA that have some paperwork issues.
> 
> Don't you think it's archaic to keep a whole sector of the labour force locked into a situation of second-class citizen, possibly mitigated to doing only cash jobs at slave labour wages w/o a voice? I do.


The first group is a very, very small minority who should take steps to have their legal citizenship recognized.

The second group are not citizens and cannot vote legally.


----------



## wraphter

bass player said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfgEvgVC6Qs


Yes bass it appears Obama is encouraging non-citizens to vote.
The interviewer asks Obama about' ---millenials,Dreamers ,undocumented citizens--I call them citizens because they are contributing'

Dreamers refers to the DREAM act which has not been passed despite repeated attempts. It pertains to children born out side the US
who are brought to the US before they are 16. They are illegals according to the law .

An undocumented citizen is not a citizen.

Obama says ----When you vote you are a citizen yourself.
Voting doesn't make you a citizen as he seems to imply.

He assures her that the voting roles are confidential and will not be turned over to immigration.

He is encouraging undocumented persons to vote.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Yep. She's good. After all the multitudes of totally false accusations, this final one in the last few minutes (subjectively) takes the cake.
> 
> The only question left is has it done enough damage to hand the Senate back to the GoP.


I don't even think Crooked Hillary had a toilet server-I think Putin made the whole thing up.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> At least these people weren't captured and brought over from africa. These people, in some ways, volunteered to be a subordinate class. ... Not that a lot is being done to help them become peers.
> 
> In America, some men are created equal.


The illegal immigration problem in the United States is so large that it is impossible to rectify through traditional means.

Trump has no plan. He claims that a wall and a more aggressive deportation program will work. That's a departure from prior presidential candidates from both sides of the aisle. I'm unsure if he actually believes it but the message definitely appeal to those who want easy answers to complex problems.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Of course they will be. The problem arises when some of those "new" native born Canadians demand that their barbaric cultural practices from their homeland be accepted by the rest of Canada.
> 
> Let me ask you this...do you travel? If so, what other countries do you like to visit, and why?


I just hope to live long enough to see someone in a Burka on our paper money.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Yes bass it appears Obama is encouraging non-citizens to vote.
> The interviewer asks Obama about' ---millenials,Dreamers ,undocumented citizens--I call them citizens because they are contributing'
> 
> Dreamers refers to the DREAM act which has not been passed despite repeated attempts. It pertains to children born out side the US
> who are brought to the US before they are 16. They are illegals according to the law .
> 
> An undocumented citizen is not a citizen.
> 
> Obama says ----When you vote you are a citizen yourself.
> Voting doesn't make you a citizen as he seems to imply.
> 
> He assures her that the voting roles are confidential and will not be turned over to immigration.
> 
> He is encouraging undocumented persons to vote.


Hardly. He wants a path to legalization - same as pretty much every president of the last 50 years (including Reagan and both Bush's). 

States run the vote in America, not the federal government. Nothing to see here.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> I just hope to live long enough to see someone in a Burka on our paper money.



I wanna see someone in a pantsuit on an American bill.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> The accusations were not limited to the email thing.
> 
> You guys were saying basically that she was a Weekend at Bernie's carcass, that she had a doctor on hand with an epipen with mysterious substances in it, that she was a full-blown murderer, that she had the FBI in her pocket, that she had the entire media in her pocket, false claims about their nonprofit charity, etc etc, all debunked.
> 
> The last thing you had was doing emails on a secure server which was already in place, an error to which she admitted, but there was no evidence of intentional wrongdoing, and now, after further intensive investigation upon opening Wiener's laptop, there still is none.
> 
> What I see is a woman who has dedicated her life to public service, and through her foundation, is working towards 'improving global health, increasing opportunity for girls and women, reducing childhood obesity and preventable diseases, creating economic opportunity and growth, and helping communities address the effects of climate change'*
> 
> * https://www.clintonfoundation.org/about


YUP-all DEBUNKED-she got the fire sale James Comey DEBUNKER-works for everything on the braindead sheep.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> Legal citizens can vote. Non-citizens can't vote. What part of that don't you understand?


Pincer is just trolling you.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> YUP-all DEBUNKED-she got the fire sale James Comey DEBUNKER-works for everything on the braindead sheep.


You change positions more than a hooker with a bad back.

It's kind of neat to have a discussion with someone who can write anything that will reinforce their position, regardless of it contradicting their own position perhaps a couple of pages back. Your win/loss ratio is approximately 0.

Comey threw a big hammer on the Clinton campaign. He is not Hillary's friend. At least, he has the appearance of having some integrity, by releasing the results of the investigation prior to the election.

I don't even like Hillary and I'm forced to take her position. lol!


----------



## olivaw

*The State of the States (FiveThirtyEight)*



> The polls are coming in fast and furious — and *there are signs of late momentum for Hillary Clinton, whose lead has increased to roughly 3.5 percentage points over Donald Trump *. Her chances of winning the Electoral College have ticked up to 69 percent in both the polls-only and polls-plus models, recovering some of the ground she lost after FBI director James Comey’s letter to Congress on Oct. 28. We’ll continue to update our forecast through early Tuesday morning.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Hillary and her "vast right wing conspiracy" remind me of guys I used to know who were always saying "the cops are picking on me".


OTOH obtaining at least 200 million dollars solely through criminal activity is pretty unusual/impressive-basically Master Criminal level.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> I wanna see someone in a pantsuit on an American bill.


I say the Burka wins that race-but it will be close-OTOH a guy in a Turban is maybe 5 years away.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> OTOH obtaining at least 200 million dollars solely through criminal activity is pretty unusual/impressive-basically Master Criminal level.


Conspiracy Nelley. Again you failed to cite sources for your latest conspiracy theory.


----------



## Nelley

mrPPincer said:


> Conspiracy Nelly. Again you failed to cite sources for your latest conspircay theory.


Putin did it.


----------



## mrPPincer

Nelley said:


> Putin did it.


^ofc :stupid:


----------



## olivaw

Trump is live on CNN. His theme is _"It's gonna be great, details to follow"_.


----------



## sags

It is ironic that after decades of efforts to make Clinton appear untrustworthy, when the anti-Hillary crowd had finally positioned her at her weakest point they handed her the election victory by nominating Donald Trump as her opponent.

Tomorrow they will sit in stunned silence thinking..........well, that was a waste of 30 years.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> It is ironic that after decades of efforts to make Clinton appear untrustworthy, when the anti-Hillary crowd had finally positioned her at her weakest point they handed her the election victory by nominating Donald Trump as her opponent.
> 
> Tomorrow they will sit in stunned silence thinking..........well, that was a waste of 30 years.


Crooked Hillary appears untrustworthy? News to me.


----------



## olivaw

Interesting article in the New York Times about participation among Hispanic voters. 

*This Time, There Really Is a Hispanic Voter Surge*



> Early voting data unequivocally indicates that Hillary Clinton will benefit from a long awaited surge in Hispanic turnout, vastly exceeding the Hispanic turnout from four years ago.
> 
> It’s too soon to say whether it will be decisive for her. The geographic distribution of Hispanic voters means that many of her gains will help her in noncompetitive states like Texas and California, not Michigan and Pennsylvania.
> 
> But the surge is real, and it’s big. It could be enough to overcome Mr. Trump’s strength among white-working class voters in the swing states of Florida and Nevada. If it does, it will almost certainly win her the election.


My wife and I occasionally chat with our Hispanic friends from Houston. People in the Hispanic community are vehemently opposed to Trump. These folks don't support illegal immigration. They're just afraid that Donald Trump's rhetoric stokes the fires of anti-Hispanic sentiment.


----------



## olivaw

Boy, that Ted Nugent is all class eh?


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Boy, that Ted Nugent is all class eh?


Nah-this is class http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/20/madon...votes-for-hillary-clinton-a-blow-job-6203560/


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Boy, that Ted Nugent is all class eh?


Yeah...Hillary supporter Jay Z would never do that


----------



## indexxx

olivaw said:


> Boy, that Ted Nugent is all class eh?


Yeah, Nugent is a bit nuts- but what a great guitar player! As much as I don't agree with Uncle Ted's politics, I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the way he lives- super healthy (never took a drink or a drug in his life), hunts his own food, never slows down. He's just a bit offensive and rather misogynist (just read some of his lyrics- dumb and cringeworthy- or are those the nicknames on the Republican ballot tomorrow?). But he's also really funny, always over-the-top entertaining and still completely kicks *** at 67. I can't help but like the guy.


----------



## new dog

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Humble I think the phrase "achieve 100 million" refers to "Canada has 35m"
> 
> The 100m policy is being seriously considered at the highest levels of Canadian government. Given that it is foolish, counterproductive, and against the interests of all Canadians I predict they will implement it.
> 
> Can you tell me which countries have objectively better social policies than Canada?



There is no good way to spin this Humble. Just raising the birthrate with problem people to our society is just insane. I couldn't find it but I think Rusty also said it doesn't do our climate change and carbon footprint any favours. Keeping a low population and dealing with those challenges is far better then having huge cities and infrastructure problems along with an entire new society we no longer fit in.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> OTOH obtaining at least 200 million dollars solely through criminal activity is pretty unusual/impressive-basically Master Criminal level.


You said it. And that was after they made her give back most of the stuff she stole from the White House.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> This tells us nothing about the assumed rate of immigration unless you have more information. It's not the only factor responsible for population growth. Birth rates and life expectancy also contribute. Our birth rate is a lot lower than during the last 100 years and the change in life expectancy is also less than in the 20th century. Will likely reduce further if the new immigrants start blowing everyone up at the same rate as Iraqis and Syrians.
> 
> I would guess they are assuming much higher rate of immigration over the next 100 years to get to 100 mil.


To 3x population in 100 years requires an annual growth rate of 1.1% (I can work a calculator). That's right about where Canada has been growing for decades.


----------



## olivaw

Springsteen on CNN right now. He's at the Clinton rally in Philadelphia. 

His voice is not what it was - but I still love to watch the boss.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Of course they will be. The problem arises when some of those "new" native born Canadians demand that their barbaric cultural practices from their homeland be accepted by the rest of Canada.
> 
> Let me ask you this...do you travel? If so, what other countries do you like to visit, and why?


This is an Islam problem, not an immigrant problem (for the most part). I work with Colombians, Peruvians, Mexicans, Poles, Chinese, Koreans, Spaniards, Kopts from Egypt and Eritrea. No barbaric cultural practices there.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> This is an Islam problem, not an immigrant problem (for the most part). I work with Colombians, Peruvians, Mexicans, Poles, Chinese, Koreans, Spaniards, Kopts from Egypt and Eritrea. No barbaric cultural practices there.


The group I used to work with included Muslims. No barbaric cultural practices there either. Maybe it's not an Islam problem.


----------



## TomB19

I'm sure we can overlook the odd honour killing. After all, women are the property of men.

Hey, let's embrace all cultures!


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

An interesting slant on the election-


I envy you, American citizens. I do not care about your military might, nor for your supreme currency, the US dollar. I envy your chance to deal on 11/8 a decisive blow to the rule of the Masters of Discourse. Though the Masters control the entirety of world media, and they decide what people may think and say from Canada to Hong Kong, only you, American citizens, can defeat them. This is a great chance, a unique opportunity not to be missed.

The Masters of Discourse can be defeated. They are not stronger than any ruler of past. Trump has a great quality making him fit for the task: he is impervious to labels and libels. He had been called everything in the book: anti-Semite, racist, women hater, you name it. And he still survived that flak. Such people are very rare.

We know he is against the Masters because every newspaper is against him. I never saw a similar onslaught but once, in Russia in 1996. Then President Yeltsin, an old drunkard who had brought Russia to collapse, had to run for his second term. His popularity was next to zero. Two per cent of Russians intended to vote for him. And then the oligarchs turned on their propaganda machine. Yeltsin’s competitor Gennady Zyuganov, a mild church-going post-communist, had been presented like a Hitler of his days. All the Russian media of the day belonged to oligarchs, and all of it participated in the onslaught. Zyuganov surrendered.

Perhaps he won the election, but he congratulated Yeltsin with his victory. It was said that he was threatened with assassination unless… Others say he was bribed. I do not exclude both explanations, but for sure the might of united media can crush a timid man.

In the days of the Jewish Temple, there was a Magrepha, a wind instrument able to produce diverse and frightening sounds. There is no agreement among the scholars about what sort of thing it was. Whenever it sounded, people were scared.

The media of our days is a new Magrepha. If all of its outputs are united, they produce a terrible roar.

Yes, the onslaught of the media upon Trump had been exceedingly unfair, but he survived it. What is even more important, you survived it. It does not matter what the polls say: they say what the newspapers tell them to say. Even people answer the polls according to the media prognoses: they are shy of saying they would vote for a man who … But at the moment of actual vote, they do what they know is right for them. Not for transgenders, not for Muslim brokers, not even for single mothers, but for themselves.

You have a very good chance to win, and to defeat the witch and her supporters. We learned that the British people voted for Brexit, though all the media said that proposal had no chance. But we also learned from Brexit, that nothing is over until it is over. The Masters of Discourse will try every trick to steal the elections, and only their fear of armed rising may finally force them to acknowledge their inevitable defeat.

We know that in 2015, when Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister, was afraid of losing the elections, he revealed that the American intelligence has some superior software which allows them to falsify the elections. Perhaps, but he won despite this magical software, despite Obama’s wrath.

Even in Israel, that favorite son of the Masters, the Masters are hated. The New York Times is always speaking good about Israel, but still Israelis do not like the newspaper. Nobody likes them, nobody likes an old aunt who tries to tell us what we can say and what we can’t. If Netanyahu could win, Trump can win twice.

After the first debate of Trump and Clinton, people said: She won! But we shall vote for him. This was a very encouraging sign. Indeed every woman worth its salt would win an argument with her husband or son-in-law, let alone a pretender. That is the way we are made. The story of sirens enforces the belief that if you listen to a woman, she will bewitch you. Sirens actually ate the bewitched sailors; our womenfolk do not go to such extremes, but they can cause us a lot of trouble.

Trump seems to be almost pure of heart and deed, as even extremely prejudiced media could not find anything really incriminating about him but bragging about having his way with women. I shall not recount so many proven accusations against Hillary. All of that can be found in the emails revealed by Julian Assange and his great Wikileaks team. The media kept mum about it, but the secrets can’t be kept forever.

There are many practical things Donald Trump will be able to fix. He can return industries home, he can return American GIs home from four ends of the world, he can improve lot of working men. But he surely will set all of us free from the annoying bondage of the Masters. Just for that reason, go and vote, for yourself and for millions of us who aren’t entitled to.

Israel Shamir can be reached at [email protected]

This article was first published at The Unz Review.


----------



## olivaw

The Clinton rally in front of Freedom Hall was an optimistic event. From the music - to the Clintons - to the Obamas It is positive and uplifting. 

It stands in stark contrast to the dark and depressing message coming from the Trump side.

ETA: Guess the NY Times thinks so too. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/08/u...region=span-abc-region&WT.nav=span-abc-region


----------



## TomB19

I would agree with everything in Rusty's post if Trump wasn't such a space cadet. The guy is gone. He lives in an alternate universe and that is not a change from the current situation.

Get us a better candidate or maybe just a younger trump.


----------



## Argonaut

A final thought. Remember that Donald Trump has put millions of dollars of his own money into his own campaign so he can help Make America Great Again. On the other hand, Hillary has used her political influence to collect millions of dollars from foreign governments and special interests.

Will be fun to follow the story tomorrow. Democracy is an illusion though, case in point Brexit whereby the will of the people is totally ignored. Pete Townshend wrote it best back in the 70's: _"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."_


----------



## olivaw

^Best recheck that Argo. Last I checked, his donations to his campaign were modest - the big bucks were his loans to his campaign but he'll get that money back. How much of his campaign money was spent on Trump merchandise and services?


----------



## TomB19

It seems to me, Trump did plenty for his campaign. His celebrity and persona brought huge quantities of free publicity. That publicity was all built on Trump's street cred. Trump put some of his own money in, too. He was completely unfunded until after the primary.

As for Hillary using her influence to collect money from foreign governments, that is just more made up smear BS from the Republican base, unless it can be substantiated.

... although I have no doubt, foreign governments are weighing in on both sides. Citizens United has to be dumbest piece of legislation since slavery.


----------



## wraphter

TomB19 said:


> As for Hillary using her influence to collect money from foreign governments, that is just more made up smear BS from the Republican base, unless it can be substantiated.


Bob Woodward Calls Clinton Foundation 'Corrupt' and a 'Scandal'



> On Sunday, when Wallace asked Woodward if voters are right to be troubled by the Wikileaks revelations, Woodward said, "Yes. It's corrupt, it's a scandal and she didn't answer your question at all and she turned to embrace the good work that the Clinton foundation has done, and she has a case there. But the mixing of the speech fees, the Clinton foundation and actions by The State Department, which she ran, are all intertwined. It's corrupt. You can't just say it's unsavoury."


The Clinton Foundation is currently being investigated by the FBI. The Justice Department has not been supportive according to a WSJ
article.

The Marc Rich pardon was very remunerative to Bill Clinton.

Bill Clinton received $500,000 for a speech in Moscow from a Russian bank promoting the Uranium One deal
while Hillary was Secretary . This deal required government approval.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> It seems to me, Trump did plenty for his campaign. His celebrity and persona brought huge quantities of free publicity. That publicity was all built on Trump's street cred. Trump put some of his own money in, too. He was completely unfunded until after the primary.
> 
> As for Hillary using her influence to collect money from foreign governments, that is just more made up smear BS from the Republican base, unless it can be substantiated.
> 
> ... although I have no doubt, foreign governments are weighing in on both sides. Citizens United has to be dumbest piece of legislation since slavery.


Hard to keep track of all these MSM approved Conspiracy Theories for the Braindead Sheep-first it was Assange/Wikileaks smearing Crooked Hillary, now it is Repubs-I guess PUTIN controls both parties.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> Springsteen on CNN right now. He's at the Clinton rally in Philadelphia.
> 
> His voice is not what it was - but I still love to watch the boss.




i thought her voice was terrific. She wore the glow of success.

no one has ever said anything about the music the democrats are able to float at their rallies but wow is it beautiful. Haunting, calling, hints of gospel, new york city club jazz, ragtime, southern church congregations, country barn dance, hollywood, old time radio, here & there a magnificent soprano voice throbbing like a heart. 

the democrats synthesizers got the same kind of music together for the nominating convention. No other nation could compose a presidential serenade like this.


Edit: i don't mean the live entertainment, i mean the canned music. Whoever puts it together for the dems has got big talent.

.


----------



## TomB19

wraphter said:


> Bob Woodward Calls Clinton Foundation 'Corrupt' and a 'Scandal'[/url]


I call Bob Woodward a blow hard.




Nelley said:


> Hard to keep track of all these MSM approved Conspiracy Theories for the Braindead Sheep-first it was Assange/Wikileaks smearing Crooked Hillary, now it is Repubs-I guess PUTIN controls both parties.


I could reproduce your output with an array of words, {"e-mail", "Benghazi", "Putin", "Wikileaks", "Assange", "sheep", "MSM"} and a function to randomly sprinkle those words into a sentence of gibberish. I'll bet that program would be hot.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> no one has ever said anything about the music the democrats are able to float at their rallies but wow is it beautiful. Haunting, calling, hints of gospel, new york city club jazz, ragtime, southern church congregations, country barn dance, hollywood, old time radio, here & there a magnificent soprano voice throbbing like a heart.


That stuff is just filler. What people really want is to Wango Tango.

lol!


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Bob Woodward Calls Clinton Foundation 'Corrupt' and a 'Scandal'


Carl Bernstein (the other half of the watergate team) endorsed Clinton. It's a wash.


----------



## sags

If you totally ignore Trump's past and everything he represents today, he is a downright decent guy.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Bob Woodward Calls Clinton Foundation 'Corrupt' and a 'Scandal'
> 
> 
> 
> The Clinton Foundation is currently being investigated by the FBI. The Justice Department has not been supportive according to a WSJ
> article.
> 
> The Marc Rich pardon was very remunerative to Bill Clinton.
> 
> Bill Clinton received $500,000 for a speech in Moscow from a Russian bank promoting the Uranium One deal
> while Hillary was Secretary . This deal required government approval.



haven't we been through all of these points ad nauseum though.

the Uranium One deal was like 4000 posts ago. It was approved by the president, not by the secretary of state.

rafter the moscow stock exchange is hosting a two-day conference at the waldorf astoria in NY City starting next week. Guests will be americans with possible or actual financial or investment interests in russia. Perhaps you could rag the business & social connections of all of these guests? 

after all, every one of them will have networks, just like hillary clinton has networks. There'll be endless brand-new fodder for fresh new complaints. Good luck with the digging.

.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> i thought her voice was terrific. She wore the glow of success.


Springsteen's voice is not what it was but he is still great. 

Hillary is youthful and vibrant. The Trump campaign and a few of our posters said she was deaths doorstep but she looks and sounds amazing. She's not the greatest orator but she has a charm that I have come to admire. I'm amazed that she can maintain that smile after all the attacks and conspiracy theories. 

I know its fashionable to say she is nothing more than the lesser of two evils but I think that Hillary is fantastic.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> That stuff is just filler. What people really want is to Wango Tango.



it's the best canned filler you'll ever hear. They don't make stuff like that in saskatchewan.

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> I would agree with everything in Rusty's post if Trump wasn't such a space cadet. The guy is gone. He lives in an alternate universe and that is not a change from the current situation.
> 
> Get us a better candidate or maybe just a younger trump.


I agree. I have never said Trump would make a good President. What intrigues me is the way the campaign has been carried out against him. Why lie about him when the truth is enough to disqualify him? This is one reason I put a lot of credence in Scott Adams' persuasion theories. According to persuasion theory facts and reality don't matter, people act on their feelings. Direct their feelings and you can make them do anything. That seems to be the reasoning behind both sides campaigns and probably every election campaign for who knows how long.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Carl Bernstein (the other half of the watergate team) endorsed Clinton. It's a wash.


Carl Bernstein: Clinton would ‘probably lose’ to any other Republican



> Legendary investigative journalist Carl Bernstein says Hillary Clinton would be losing to any GOP presidential nominee except Donald Trump.
> 
> “Hillary Clinton has been a terrible candidate,” Bernstein told CNN's "New Day" on Friday.
> 
> "Under other circumstances, she would probably lose, and you could have a real contest of ideas.”
> 
> Bernstein, best known for breaking the Watergate scandal as a Washington Post reporter, said Trump is not a viable option to lead the nation.
> 
> “This is danger, demagoguery from someone who is antithetical to what we believe as a democracy," he said.
> 
> ..........
> 
> 
> Turning back to Clinton, Bernstein called her out of touch with people who back Trump, as well as supporters of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), whom she defeated for the presidential nomination.
> 
> *“This is why I say Hillary Clinton has been such a bad candidate,” Bernstein said. “She allowed Bernie Sanders and Trump to correctly identify the anger at the elites in this country, as well as she was so late to understand the pain of working-class people in this country. It’s as if she were tone deaf.”*


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> Hillary is youthful and vibrant. The Trump campaign and a few of our posters said she was deaths doorstep but she looks and sounds amazing. She's not the greatest orator but she has a charm that I have come to admire. I'm amazed that she can maintain that smile after all the attacks and conspiracy theories.
> 
> I know its fashionable to say she is nothing more than the lesser of two evils but I think that Hillary is fantastic.




i'll just slip this in here, although to me it's the elephant that has been sitting on the campaign trail the whole time.

hillary has been mega-attacked primarily because she is a female. It's astonishing to realize that barack obama overcame the racial barrier without too much difficulty in 2008, but hillary clinton has had to face a sexism barrier that would have killed just about every other woman on the planet.

other nations have had grandmothers as legitimate & honoured leaders. Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi. But evidently the US couldn't cross that bridge without millions of phreaks - whole armies composed of basses & nellies - going berserk out of their skulls. There's stuff in this thread that's so sick it couldn't even have come from a mental hospital.

just upthread tomB is saying he likes honour killings. We all know tom is playing the curmudgeon ... but is that really funny though?

hillary is talking a good line & clearly she has heard the populist language. If nothing else she heard from the bernie sanders camp that america must change. What will be interesting to see is whether she will manage to carry out any of this.

.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Carl Bernstein: Clinton would ‘probably lose’ to any other Republican


Sure, he said in October that she was not as good a campaigner as he would have liked. 

And then he endorsed her. He also went on cable news to defend her against false allegations from alternative media.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> A final thought. Remember that Donald Trump has put millions of dollars of his own money into his own campaign so he can help Make America Great Again. On the other hand, Hillary has used her political influence to collect millions of dollars from foreign governments and special interests.
> 
> Will be fun to follow the story tomorrow. Democracy is an illusion though, case in point Brexit whereby the will of the people is totally ignored. Pete Townshend wrote it best back in the 70's: _"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."_


As Trump as said, he will be the first candidate to make money running for President. He has already embezzled enough from his campaign to recoup his small donations.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Carl Bernstein: Clinton would ‘probably lose’ to any other Republican



perhaps bernstein & woodward have both lost their touch.

hillary did not campaign "tone deaf" as bernstein would have it. On the contrary, she easily picked up what bernie sanders meant to the democratic party & she spoke to the issues of ordinary americans - jobs, children, women, health care - throughout her campaign.

it's impossible to dismiss hillary's campaign as pure rhetoric. It's also impossible to totally believe it. It will be fascinating to watch what this plucky woman actually does do, keeping in mind she could be hamstrung by a house & senate against her.

perhaps it's too much to hope that the bitterness & filth among US voters will fade. Parties planning to rebuild either the GOP or the democratic party could learn hugely from watching what hillary does in pragmatic reality. What will fly, what won't fly.

.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> i'll just slip this in here, although to me it's the elephant that has been sitting on the campaign trail the whole time.
> 
> hillary has been mega-attacked primarily because she is a female. It's astonishing to realize that barack obama overcame the racial barrier without too much difficulty in 2008, but hillary clinton has had to face a sexism barrier that would have killed just about every other woman on the planet.


Careful Humble, somebody will accuse you of playing the woman card.  I always wondered if the frail woman thing was based on some sort of stereotype. It was like they tried to pretend that she is a little old lady who needed help to cross the street. It's why the debate were so important this year. She assured us that she was healthy, intelligent and ready to go. If anybody looked weak, it was Donald Trump. 

The nonsense about Bill Clinton's trysts was certainly sexist. Trump even said "if she can't satisfy her husband, how can she satisfy America". That pretty much sums up the sentiment behind it. 

The allegation of dishonesty were unrelated to gender. They were just throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick. 

IMO Bernie had no hope of implementing his agenda but he did make two huge contributions to the discussion. 
- Tuition relief for students
- Single payer medical insurance. Obama wanted single payer and admits that Obamacare/ACA was a compromise.


----------



## olivaw

*Carl Bernstein, "A Woman in Charge: The Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton,"* 



> _She's the most interesting woman, I think, of our era. At the time -- she was already the most famous woman in the world. More famous than Princess Diana. More famous than Elizabeth Taylor. And, you know, we forget -- with Donald Trump, we remember what a celebrity he is and how the key to him is celebrity and celebrity culture. But it also is, in many ways, to Hillary Clinton as well. She is, very much, the most celebrated woman in the world. And it has a lot to do with her story -- and how she is judged, often not in context, but the way superstars in popular culture are usually judged: black and white, great or awful._


Good audio in the link. Bernstein talks frankly about what he sees as her strengths and her weaknesses. In the end, he admits to a great deal of admiration for Hillary Clinton.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> it's the best canned filler you'll ever hear. They don't make stuff like that in saskatchewan..


Hey, Joni Mitchell lived in Saskatoon for years and she is a forgotten legend. Unfortunately, she has somewhat lost her grip on reality. There is a rumor that she has a condition such that she can't wear clothes, most of the time.

Joni Mitchell was epic. She was a premier artist of the time and not just on the Canadian scene.

[Edit: 1974 performance replaced with more recent performance, because it is a more faithful rendition of the song but I love the 1974 version for authenticity of the period.]






... and then there is the Northern Pikes. I like Pike.

Anyway, I was joking. I like the artists and music promoting the Democrats. A lot. I like Ted Nugent, too. I just think he has rabies, or some sort of brain rotting condition. lol!

BTW, I'll take Springsteen regardless of the condition of his voice.


----------



## olivaw

Caught a little of Lady Gaga's new mood song on CNN from Hillary's next rally in Raleigh, NC. She was on the piano and sounding good. 

Trump followed Mike Pence. He's pointing at the media and calling them the world's most dishonest people while the crowd boos - such an angry and ugly campaign.

ETA: I didn't know that Joni Mitchell lived in Sask - such a beautiful voice. We still keep some of her songs in the active playlist on our iPhones.


----------



## james4beach

humble_pie said:


> hillary has been mega-attacked primarily because she is a female. It's astonishing to realize that barack obama overcame the racial barrier without too much difficulty in 2008, but hillary clinton has had to face a sexism barrier that would have killed just about every other woman on the planet.


I agree, humble_pie. I think that's at the core of much of this whining about Hillary. Old white American men hate the idea of a woman leading the country, just like they hate the idea of a black man leading the country. The same old white men hated having a female boss at work, for example. Look at these criticisms of Hillary, like that she's too weak or unhealthy. Trump is an obese man who brags about how much he loves fast food!! He could have a heart attack any moment. Hillary is one year younger, and women have longer life expectancies. But that criticism that Hillary is _too weak_ really resonated with people.

Comedian Louis CK made a very insightful comment:

"Hillary Clinton can take abuse," C.K. said. "She's been takin' it and takin' it. *We've been hazing her and spittin' in her mouth and yellin' at her*, and she just gets up and goes, 'Well, I just think if children have proper health care and education...' She just keeps working!"


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

How do you make out that Clinton was 'attacked' because she was female? All the 'attacks' I recall were criticisms of things she did, that would have landed a man in prison? If anything she has been given a free pass because of her sex, and has never failed to play the 'woman card' if she thought it would help.


----------



## bgc_fan

Rusty O'Toole said:


> How do you make out that Clinton was 'attacked' because she was female? All the 'attacks' I recall were criticisms of things she did, that would have landed a man in prison? If anything she has been given a free pass because of her sex, and has never failed to play the 'woman card' if she thought it would help.


I would say there was a double standard with Trump supporters. When you see interviews with his religious supporters, they are fine with writing off his infidelity and fact that he has married multiple times with the fact that people aren't perfect and you can forgive them. But when it comes to Hillary, they blame her for Bill's infidelity.

I would say that is a bit of a double standard.


----------



## wraphter

Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal ---New York Times April, 2015



> The headline on the website Pravda trumpeted President Vladimir V. Putin’s latest coup, its nationalistic fervor recalling an era when its precursor served as the official mouthpiece of the Kremlin: “Russian Nuclear Energy Conquers the World.”
> 
> .........
> But the untold story behind that story is one that involves not just the Russian president, but also a former American president and a woman who would like to be the next one.
> 
> At the heart of the tale are several men, leaders of the Canadian mining industry, who have been major donors to the charitable endeavors of former President Bill Clinton and his family. Members of that group built, financed and eventually sold off to the Russians a company that would become known as Uranium One.
> 
> 
> Beyond mines in Kazakhstan that are among the most lucrative in the world, the sale gave the Russians control of one-fifth of all uranium production capacity in the United States. Since uranium is considered a strategic asset, with implications for national security, the deal had to be approved by a committee composed of representatives from a number of United States government agencies. Among the agencies that eventually signed off was the State Department, then headed by Mr. Clinton’s wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton.
> 
> As the Russians gradually assumed control of Uranium One in three separate transactions from 2009 to 2013, Canadian records show, a flow of cash made its way to the Clinton Foundation. Uranium One’s chairman used his family foundation to make four donations totaling $2.35 million. Those contributions were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons, despite an agreement Mrs. Clinton had struck with the Obama White House to publicly identify all donors. Other people with ties to the company made donations as well.
> 
> And shortly after the Russians announced their intention to acquire a majority stake in Uranium One, Mr. Clinton received $500,000 for a Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock.
> 
> *Whether the donations played any role in the approval of the uranium deal is unknown. But the episode underscores the special ethical challenges presented by the Clinton Foundation, headed by a former president who relied heavily on foreign cash to accumulate $250 million in assets even as his wife helped steer American foreign policy as secretary of state, presiding over decisions with the potential to benefit the foundation’s donors.*
> 
> .........
> 
> Either way, the Uranium One deal highlights the limits of such prohibitions. The foundation will continue to accept contributions from foreign sources whose interests, like Uranium One’s, may overlap with those of foreign governments, some of which may be at odds with the United States.


----------



## wraphter

Bill Browder: the Kremlin threatened to kill me: the dangers of doing business in Russia



> American-born Browder is one of Vladimir Putin’s most prominent critics. For over a decade he lived in Moscow and ran the most successful investment fund in Russia. Initially, he was a fan of Putin’s. But in 2005 he was deported from the country. A corrupt group of officials expropriated his fund, Hermitage Capital, and used it to make a fraudulent tax claim. They stole $230m (£153m).
> 
> Stuck in London, Browder hired a team to fight his case. The same Russian officials arrested his lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, after Magnitsky uncovered the money trail and made a complaint. They put Magnitsky in jail and refused him medical treatment. (Magnitsky suffered from pancreatitis and gall stones.) After he had spent almost a year behind bars, guards beat him to death. He was 37 and married with two small boys.
> 
> The incident had a transforming effect on Browder. “If Magnitsky had not been my lawyer he would still be alive,” he says. He describes Magnitsky’s death as “absolutely heartbreaking”. “If he hadn’t taken on my case he’d still be enjoying his life, being a father, looking after his wife. A young man whom I was responsible for died in the most horrific way because he worked for me.”
> 
> Browder’s memoir, published next week, recounts how Magnitsky’s death changed him from entrepreneur to global human rights crusader. Its title is Red Notice: How I Became Putin’s No.1 Enemy; and it reads like a non-fiction version of a Mario Puzo thriller. There’s a ruthless crime syndicate, a mafia boss – for Michael Corleone read Putin – and a growing tally of bodies.
> 
> Ever since Magnitsky’s murder in 2009 Browder has waged an extraordinary campaign to bring the officials to justice. Not in a court of law – there’s no prospect of a trial inside Russia – but in the wider court of international public opinion.
> 
> After footslogging round Washington, Browder succeeded in persuading US Congress to pass a groundbreaking Sergei Magnitsky law. The 2012 legislation imposed visa bans on the bureaucrats implicated in Magnistky’s murder. It denied them access to US banks. Putin was furious. In 2013 a Russian judge sentenced Browder in absentia to nine years in jail, and, bizarrely, “convicted” the already-dead Magnitsky. The Kremlin sent a Red Notice warrant to Interpol demanding Browder’s extradition. Interpol refused, but Moscow is currently putting together a third extradition bid.
> 
> Aged 50, and dressed in an inconspicuous suit and tie, Browder still resembles the investment banker he once was. He concedes that there are several Russians who have annoyed Putin more but says “among foreigners” he’s probably the President’s biggest foe. There have been death threats, including one sent by text days before Magnitsky died. *(A quote from The Godfather Part II, sent to a colleague’s mobile, read chillingly: “History has taught us that anybody can be killed.”) Browder casually mentions that the US Department of Justice warned last summer of a plot to kidnap him and render him back to Moscow.*


If Hillary becomes president,will the flow of foreign money to the Clinton Foundation increase ?


----------



## mordko

And this is what actually sparked the so called "security scare" at Trump's rally. One man had a sign "Republicans against Trump". He was beaten up by Trumps supporters, nice crowd that they are. Trump praised his own bravery for not being scared of a man with a sign. A bit pathetic. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...publicans-against-trump-sign?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## mordko

So, who will win? 

It will be a landslide for Clinton. It has to be. Trumps supporters are very vocal, but there simply aren't enough dumb old uneducated men around. And yes, many will vote for Trump not because they really support him, but because they are opposed to Clinton, justifiably so. Still more will abstain or vote someone else. Yet it is my guess that by far the most will vote for Hillary, or rather against Trump. 

Hopefully Republicans will keep the Senate, so that Hillary's White House will be paralyzed. That should minimize the harm she can do.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> I agree, humble_pie. I think that's at the core of much of this whining about Hillary. Old white American men hate the idea of a woman leading the country, just like they hate the idea of a black man leading the country. The same old white men hated having a female boss at work, for example. Look at these criticisms of Hillary, like that she's too weak or unhealthy. Trump is an obese man who brags about how much he loves fast food!! He could have a heart attack any moment. Hillary is one year younger, and women have longer life expectancies. But that criticism that Hillary is _too weak_ really resonated with people.
> 
> Comedian Louis CK made a very insightful comment:
> 
> "Hillary Clinton can take abuse," C.K. said. "She's been takin' it and takin' it. *We've been hazing her and spittin' in her mouth and yellin' at her*, and she just gets up and goes, 'Well, I just think if children have proper health care and education...' She just keeps working!"


Yeah these old white men are pure evil-anyway-are you aware that Louis CK has more sexual assault allegations against him than any comedian with the exception of Bill Cosby? Just a real weird choice for your white men are bad, women good diatribe.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> I agree, humble_pie. I think that's at the core of much of this whining about Hillary. Old white American men hate the idea of a woman leading the country, just like they hate the idea of a black man leading the country. The same old white men hated having a female boss at work, for example. Look at these criticisms of Hillary, like that she's too weak or unhealthy. Trump is an obese man who brags about how much he loves fast food!! He could have a heart attack any moment. Hillary is one year younger, and women have longer life expectancies. But that criticism that Hillary is _too weak_ really resonated with people.
> 
> Comedian Louis CK made a very insightful comment:
> 
> "Hillary Clinton can take abuse," C.K. said. "She's been takin' it and takin' it. *We've been hazing her and spittin' in her mouth and yellin' at her*, and she just gets up and goes, 'Well, I just think if children have proper health care and education...' She just keeps working!"


Trump also has a clear polling lead with white WOMEN-so technically it is not just old evil white men that hate women, it is also white women that hate women.


----------



## TomB19

Good morning, Nelley.

I would like to ask you to consider the idea that you have been operating on some flawed ideas. Hillary Clinton is a good person. She is a law abiding patriot. She has never gone bankrupt. She has never deliberately walked in on a stranger while they are nude. She hasn't grabbed a stranger by the genitals.

I respectfully ask that you consider the error of your ways and vote for Hillary. Hillary will make America great again.


Respectfully,

Your friend... Tom


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> Trump followed Mike Pence. He's pointing at the media and calling them the world's most dishonest people while the crowd boos - such an angry and ugly campaign.


Good morning, olivaw.

I think you should reconsider Donald Trump. Being a political outsider, there is little wonder why the media and other politicians are working toward his failure. It's a closed club and they don't want to let him in.

Donald J. Trump is uniquely positioned to shake up Washington and solve some of the corruption problems. Only Donald has no owners.

I respectfully request you reconsider your point of view.


Kind regards,

TomB


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> Trump also has a clear polling lead with white WOMEN-so technically it is not just old evil white men that hate women, it is also white women that hate women.


That's a made up statistics, a 100% lie. In reality Hillary leads by a humongous margin among college educated white women and is tied among uneducated white women (normally these vote Republican by a huge margin). 

Here are some actual data points:

- She [ Hillary] seems virtually certain to at least double, if not triple, the widest Democratic advantage ever among college-educated white women, which was Gore’s 8 percentage points in 2000. 

- Almost all pre-election polls have shown her leading among college-educated whites. [that's a first time in modern history for a Democrat].

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/clinton-trump-demographics/506714/

- The most striking swing has been amongst white non-college-educated women, usually one of the most reliably Republican of voting groups. In the last three elections, Republicans have won these women by margins of 19 points in 2004, 17 points in 2008 and 20 points in 2012. And yet, the PRRI/The Atlantic poll found them split evenly for Clinton and Trump, 40 percent to 40 percent.

- If only women voted in this election, Clinton would win 458 electoral votes to Trump’s 80, according to modeling done by FiveThirtyEight.

- And Quinnipiac survey taken October 5-6 found Trump’s support steadier amongst women—36 percent, the same as in a similar poll from September. But saw a surge for Clinton, whose support amongst women in the same period rose from 54 percent to 58 percent.

http://time.com/4533794/donald-trump-women-support/


----------



## TomB19

Trump has a commanding lead in voters who make up random garbage.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Good morning, Nelley.
> 
> I would like to ask you to consider the idea that you have been operating on some flawed ideas. Hillary Clinton is a good person. She is a law abiding patriot. She has never gone bankrupt. She has never deliberately walked in on a stranger while they are nude. She hasn't grabbed a stranger by the genitals.
> 
> I respectfully ask that you consider the error of your ways and vote for Hillary. Hillary will make America great again.
> 
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Your friend... Tom


Thank you-your heartfelt letter has given me the courage to come forward-back in the 80s in Arkansas I was working at a gas station-Hillary Clinton drove up-as I tried to pump the gas she grabbed me by my naughty parts-it wasn't just gas she wanted pumped-it feels better to get that off my chest.


----------



## TomB19

If you wish I can put on my Hillary Clinton disguise and come on over. Unlike Hillary, I will let you finish pumping.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Bill Browder: the Kremlin threatened to kill me: the dangers of doing business in Russia
> 
> If Hillary becomes president,will the flow of foreign money to the Clinton Foundation increase ?




what a slag-off. What does the bill browder story have to do with hillary clinton or the clinton foundation?

like i mentioned wraph your best source of *new* news should be the moscow exchange conference on russian investment to be held at the waldorf astoria in NYC next week. I mean, one can only browbeat the clinton foundation so long before the rehash becomes repetitious & boring.

.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> That's a made up statistics, a 100% lie. In reality Hillary leads by a humongous margin among college educated white women and is tied among uneducated white women (normally these vote Republican by a huge margin).
> 
> Here are some actual data points:
> 
> - She [ Hillary] seems virtually certain to at least double, if not triple, the widest Democratic advantage ever among college-educated white women, which was Gore’s 8 percentage points in 2000.
> 
> - Almost all pre-election polls have shown her leading among college-educated whites. [that's a first time in modern history for a Democrat].
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/clinton-trump-demographics/506714/
> 
> - The most striking swing has been amongst white non-college-educated women, usually one of the most reliably Republican of voting groups. In the last three elections, Republicans have won these women by margins of 19 points in 2004, 17 points in 2008 and 20 points in 2012. And yet, the PRRI/The Atlantic poll found them split evenly for Clinton and Trump, 40 percent to 40 percent.
> 
> - If only women voted in this election, Clinton would win 458 electoral votes to Trump’s 80, according to modeling done by FiveThirtyEight.
> 
> - And Quinnipiac survey taken October 5-6 found Trump’s support steadier amongst women—36 percent, the same as in a similar poll from September. But saw a surge for Clinton, whose support amongst women in the same period rose from 54 percent to 58 percent.
> 
> http://time.com/4533794/donald-trump-women-support/


Mornko: You say it is a lie and you don't even list a number for white women-my number is from the LA times poll.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Good morning, olivaw



aww. no invite for me?

.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Trump also has a clear polling lead with white WOMEN-so technically it is not just old evil white men that hate women, it is also white women that hate women.



totally agree. Trump's followers are evil old people who hate women

now we are getting somewhere
stronger together at last

.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> aww. no invite for me?


Feel free to vote for Jill Stein. I hear she planted a tree, once.


----------



## sags

Well.......I am an old white male and I wouldn't vote for Trump to look after the team beer kitty.

We would go to buy some beer and all we would have is a stack of IOUs.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> totally agree. Trump's followers are evil old people who hate women.


The vast majority of my friends are Americans. It's a long story but I have tons of friends and acquaintances from the American south west (CA, AZ, NV, UT).

They are almost all under 50. Most of them are Republicans. A surprising number are Trump supporters.

These people are neither evil nor do they hate women. They are good people. They are so disgusted by Washington, they are looking for a champion to come in and kick some ***. They are willing to overlook almost anything, if someone would just come in and clean house.

I don't see this as good versus evil. It's a shame the Republican camp is spewing lies like Nelley spewing fuel on the ground when Hillary Clinton pulls into her station but I feel it's important to consider the idea that both groups contain good quality people.


----------



## sags

Expect a Twitter storm late tonight when the results are all in.

Trump will have his password back and his campaign team will be on the first Greyhound out of town.


----------



## TomB19

Hey sags. Your posts don't droop as much as a person might expect.


I've enjoyed reading your posts. You seem to have a good handle.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> The vast majority of my friends are Americans. It's a long story but I have tons of friends and acquaintances from the American south west (CA, AZ, NV, UT).
> 
> They are almost all under 50. Most of them are Republicans. A surprising number are Trump supporters.
> 
> These people are neither evil nor do they hate women. They are good people. They are so disgusted by Washington, they are looking for a champion to come in and kick some ***. They are willing to overlook almost anything, if someone would just come in and clean house.



the above is hard to believe. Tom u are too smart to have stupid friends like those.

if they'd had any brains they would have nominated a better representative. They could even have gone bernie sanders.

but to believe that a punk like trump is any kind of "champion" who could "kick some ***" in washington suggests that their grey matter is already deteriorating.

change doesn't come fast, smart people understand that. Barack obama tried but fell along the way. Hillary clinton says she'll accomplish a lot, but even if she doesn't, at least america will have a caretaker government that won't start a nuclear war. Meanwhile there's an outside chance that hillary might surprise to the upside.

these times are a perfect opportunity for all the good people in both parties in the US, to rebuild their parties from the ground up. Look how the liberals managed to do just that in canada.

.


----------



## lonewolf :)

humble_pie said:


> Hillary clinton says she'll accomplish a lot, but even if she doesn't, at least america will have a caretaker government that won't start a nuclear war. Meanwhile there's an outside chance that hillary might surprise to the upside.
> 
> 
> 
> .


 A Google search indicates Hillary in the past has been a supporter of war. Seams like every war the US has been in she has supported. Now she wants to start a war with Russia bad mouthing them always as well as the no fly zone. Over the years there has been a lot of suspicious deaths of people who have crossed Hillary. Both women Merkel & Hillary want to flood their country with those that want to bring Sharia law to the world this will result in civil war.

Anyone that trades the markets & wants the game to be with less corruption would not want to vote for Hillary & her government Sachs gang. Hillary the great trader made a fortune in cattle futures with a little corrupt help. Clintons helped to destroy the money world by repealing Glass - Steagall


----------



## sags

_They could even have gone bernie sanders._ (from HP post.)

That is one part I don't understand.

If people were that upset with the status quo, Bernie Sanders offered a significantly more viable alternative than Donald Trump.

Had the anti-establishment vote coalesced around Bernie Sanders........he might well have been the Democratic nominee.

If I was an American, I would have supported Bernie Sanders.

Polling shows that 80% of Canadians would be supporting Hillary Clinton.

If this was a Canadian election, Clinton would win a blowout election and perhaps have an MP in every seat in Parliament.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Good morning, olivaw.
> 
> I think you should reconsider Donald Trump. Being a political outsider, there is little wonder why the media and other politicians are working toward his failure. It's a closed club and they don't want to let him in.
> 
> Donald J. Trump is uniquely positioned to shake up Washington and solve some of the corruption problems. Only Donald has no owners.
> 
> I respectfully request you reconsider your point of view.
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> TomB


Good morning Tom. .... No. 

I'm already wearing my pantsuit and I'm too lazy to choose another outfit.


----------



## mordko

> If people were that upset with the status quo, Bernie Sanders offered a significantly more viable alternative than Donald Trump.


...Because socialism works so well, as has been shown time and again.


----------



## SMK

bgc_fan said:


> But when it comes to Hillary, they blame her for Bill's infidelity.


Come on, that's not true. What they do is blame her hypocrisy for having verbally and publicly attacked the multiple women involved in the affairs.

The loathing of Hillary has remained uninterrupted ever since she became a political figure some 30 years ago, so way before Trump. She's the least popular Democratic nominee ever and hardly because of her gender. She was beaten by Obama in 2008 not because of her gender. She'll win in 2016 and not because of her gender.

Having recently watched documentaries about her and the multiple interviews she's given over the years like to 60 Minutes, it's no secret why this brilliant and ambitious woman who decided "not to stay home and bake cookies and have teas" all those years ago, remains disliked by many, including women. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGranwN_uk


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> ...Because socialism works so well, as has been shown time and again.


You would think that a 100% failure rate would be enough proof for some people...but some people are idiots.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

African billionaire offers a million dollars, a house and car to every black family that will move to South Africa if Trump wins.Wonder how many would take him up on his offer?

http://web.archive.org/web/20161108...ve-america-if-donald-trump-becomes-president/

In case you can't tell - this is a SATIRICAL site. I posted this because I thought it was funny and thought provoking.


----------



## humble_pie

SMK said:


> The loathing of Hillary has remained uninterrupted ever since she became a political figure some 30 years ago, so way before Trump. She's the least popular Democratic nominee ever and hardly because of her gender. She was beaten by Obama in 2008 not because of her gender. She'll win in 2016 and not because of her gender.
> 
> Having recently watched documentaries about her and the multiple interviews she's given over the years like to 60 Minutes, it's no secret why this brilliant and ambitious woman who decided "not to stay home and bake cookies and have teas" all those years ago, remains disliked by many, including women.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGranwN_uk




the above is patently untrue.

hillary clinton's popularity ratings as first lady rivalled those of michelle obama, who is presently regarded as one of the most liked & most admired first ladies in american history.

more recently, clinton's ratings as secretary of state were even higher.


http://www.people-press.org/2015/05/19/hillary-clinton-approval-timeline/


----------



## humble_pie

lonewolf :) said:


> Seams like every war the US has been in


should be *seems like*





> Over the years there has been a lot of suspicious deaths of people who have crossed Hillary.


oh stop lying





> Both women Merkel & Hillary want to flood their country with those that want to bring Sharia law to the world this will result in civil war


please stop lying





> Clintons helped to destroy the money world by repealing Glass - Steagall


you've got this backwards :biggrin:
clinton critics are supposed to say that hillary clinton *fattened* the money world


.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> mordko said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Because socialism works so well, as has been shown time and again.
> 
> 
> 
> You would think that a 100% failure rate would be enough proof for some people...but some people are idiots.
Click to expand...

Some statisics on that please.. oh wait you have none, big surprise :yawn:

What about Canadian socialized health care, what about the Northern European countries, where they may pay about 50% income tax but have the highest happiness ratios, along with a much lower wealth gap, much better education (also without throwing their youth into eternal debt), high longevity, and great health care systems?

But yeah, I guess you're right, some people are idiots.


----------



## Argonaut

mrPPincer said:


> What about Canadian socialized health care, what about the Northern European countries, where they may pay about 50% income tax but have the highest happiness ratios,


Not trying to be argumentative, because the Nordic countries seem to like their system and are free to do so. But that happiness index is an arbitrary measure based on GDP per capita, health, and education. It's not a true measure of happiness. I lived in Denmark for 6 months, and I can tell you that the Danes are a very glum people. Nordic countries also have high suicide rates.


----------



## humble_pie

.

here is a Pew Research study of hillary clinton's historic popularity ratings for her entire political life, beginning just before her arrival in the white house as first lady in 1993.

it's evident that ms clinton generally enjoyed high popularity. As first lady her ratings were comparable to michelle obama, who is presently said to be one of the most popular american first ladies in history.

clinton's highest ratings - consistently above 65% - occurred recently, during the four years when she served as secretary of state. Not even the start of wikileaks or benghazi would topple those north-of-65 favourability ratings during clinton's years at foggy bottom.

there were three exceptions to the high ratings. Two of those exceptions occurred in 2007/08 and 2015/16, both being years when clinton ran for US president. Both times, her ratings plunged to record lows below 50%.

this suggests to me that the primary issue some american voters had & still have with hillary rodham clinton is not with her person or her politics or her successful career or her foundation or even her husband's long-ago & now-forgiven strayings.

*no, the sole issue is that this capable woman has had the intolerable, shocking, unbearable, appalling audacity to try to become the first female president of the most powerful nation on earth.*

it has turned out that a surprisingly large number of persons cannot & will not deal with this simple fact.
.

http://www.people-press.org/2015/05/19/hillary-clinton-approval-timeline/

.


----------



## sags

If the US is the example of a success story for free market capitalism...........it is indeed a tale of woe.


----------



## Argonaut

The middle class, non-aristocratic wealth, virtually all innovation and technology - all "capitalist" creations.


----------



## sags

The people with the strongest beliefs in an unfettered free market capitalist system are the free market capitalists who have benefited from it.

That would be the 1%.....or the top 10%. Everyone else, the 90-99% aren't doing so well.

US leaders can continue to ignore the growing animosity over wealth and income disparity, but they do so at their own peril.

Sanders and Trump this year. Who knows who it will be in 4 years.......8 years........or 20 years.

Just like the Langoliers.........change is coming and it is relentless.


----------



## sags

Argonaut said:


> The middle class, non-aristocratic wealth, virtually all innovation and technology - all "capitalist" creations.


I don't know if that is true.

Who researched and developed the internet, that created all the opportunities for people to piggyback their ideas onto ?

Who developed GPS, which transportation, agriculture, and a lot of apps use ?

Who put communication satellites in static orbit around the earth ?

The US space program developed the first microwave oven cooking systems and a long list of other things.

Government sponsored research is more than often the root of many business "inventions"


----------



## SMK

In my opinion, in 2008, little known Obama, not the experienced and entitled Clinton was the one who inspired voters desperate for change, and that's why Obama won and Clinton lost, not because Americans were ready for a black president, or not ready for a woman president.

In 2016, Clinton will win because her opponent is a psychopath, not because 8 years later Americans are suddenly ready for a woman president. 

I hope Clinton wins big.


----------



## mrPPincer

sags said:


> The people with the strongest beliefs in an unfettered free market capitalist system are the free market capitalists who have benefited from it.
> 
> That would be the 1%.....or the top 10%. Everyone else, the 90-99% aren't doing so well.
> 
> US leaders can continue to ignore the growing animosity over wealth and income disparity, but they do so at their own peril.
> 
> Sanders and Trump this year. Who knows who it will be in 4 years.......8 years........or 20 years.
> 
> Just like the Langoliers.........change is coming and it is relentless.



Except the Langoliers ate the world, so maybe not just pick the first version, model 1.0 (Trump).


----------



## mordko

mrPPincer said:


> Some statisics on that please.. oh wait you have none, big surprise :yawn:
> 
> What about Canadian socialized health care, what about the Northern European countries, where they may pay about 50% income tax but have the highest happiness ratios, along with a much lower wealth gap, much better education (also without throwing their youth into eternal debt), high longevity, and great health care systems?
> 
> But yeah, I guess you're right, some people are idiots.


First of all, they don't have socialism in Sweden/Finland, etc... Socialism = means of production are owned by the government. The wealth in Sweden is produced by Astra Zeneca, IKEA and Volvo.

For real socialism you have to go to the USSR, China under Mao, Cuba, North Korea. 

Secondly... Yes, the government in Sweden is way too large, although they have been trying to cut down for decades now.

Same in Canada. Everything we actually have is thanks to capitalism. You kill private production and your "socialized healthcare" will die within a couple of days.


----------



## mordko

Argonaut said:


> Not trying to be argumentative, because the Nordic countries seem to like their system and are free to do so. But that happiness index is an arbitrary measure based on GDP per capita, health, and education. It's not a true measure of happiness. I lived in Denmark for 6 months, and I can tell you that the Danes are a very glum people. Nordic countries also have high suicide rates.


That's true; I noticed it too. Having spent a few weeks with my sister-in-law in Sweden, I noticed how gloomy people seem to be. She left Sweden - as does everyone who can afford it - but still has a cottage for holidays.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> For real socialism you have to go to the USSR, China under Mao, Cuba, North Korea.


They would be more accurately described as communism, which is an extreme form of socialism. - at least as used in most discussions. 

Unfettered socialism (communism) and unfettered capitalism are equally bad. They create a mass of poor people controlled by a privileged few.

(We did learn from Sweden that some social programs may actually reduce happiness - people need a sense of accomplishment and meaning and some social programs rob them of it)


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> .
> 
> here is a Pew Research study of hillary clinton's historic popularity ratings for her entire political life, beginning just before her arrival in the white house as first lady in 1993.
> 
> it's evident that ms clinton generally enjoyed high popularity. As first lady her ratings were comparable to michelle obama, who is presently said to be one of the most popular american first ladies in history.
> 
> clinton's highest ratings - consistently above 65% - occurred recently, during the four years when she served as secretary of state. Not even the start of wikileaks or benghazi would topple those north-of-65 favourability ratings during clinton's years at foggy bottom.
> 
> there were three exceptions to the high ratings. Two of those exceptions occurred in 2007/08 and 2015/16, both being years when clinton ran for US president. Both times, her ratings plunged to record lows below 50%.
> 
> this suggests to me that the primary issue some american voters had & still have with hillary rodham clinton is not with her person or her politics or her successful career or her foundation or even her husband's long-ago & now-forgiven strayings.
> 
> *no, the sole issue is that this capable woman has had the intolerable, shocking, unbearable, appalling audacity to try to become the first female president of the most powerful nation on earth.*
> 
> it has turned out that a surprisingly large number of persons cannot & will not deal with this simple fact.
> .
> 
> http://www.people-press.org/2015/05/19/hillary-clinton-approval-timeline/
> 
> .


Hmmmm, I am not sure if this proves gender bias but it certainly illustrate the negative impact of political attack. Someone in this thread (heyjude I think) said that there had been 33 Benghazi hearings, most of which blamed Hillary for the attack. 

I do believe that Hillary is not the best campaigner. She lacks the natural oratory skills of Barack Obama, the casual friendliness of Joe Biden or the warmth of Michelle Obama. She's more of a competent nerd. Nobody really like the nerd, but sometimes people root for her. 

I do agree that _some_ of people base their decision on her gender. 

Either way, I am glad to be living in a time when we can witness the election of the first black president and (perhaps) the election of the first female leader of the free world. Both Barack and Hillary are exceptional individuals.


----------



## TomB19

It is my believe that a country of much size literally cannot be run successfully without both social programs and capitalist industry.

The argument against all social programs is ignorant and stupid. The argument for levelling all wealth is just as ignorant and stupid.

As best I can tell, countries can be viable in a wide operating range between these two extremes.

When someone comes in and throws down with an absolute position of a certain balance being required, that shows weapons grade ignorance. Canada already has more social programs than I would like and I know more are coming but I am doing extremely well and I expect that to continue. That's probably the case for everyone in here. If you can't adapt, you don't deserve success.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> They would be more accurately described as communism, which is an extreme form of socialism. - at least as used in most discussions.


False. Communism has never been built anywhere. Communism = "everyone gets what they want; everyone works as little as he likes". It's a classic utopia. 



> Unfettered socialism (communism) and unfettered capitalism are equally bad.


I know exactly what socialism is. It's millions of murdered people, GULAG, not being able to say what you think, ultra corrupt party dictatorship. 

What is "unfettered capitalism"? Is it UK under Maggie, when the country was saved from the brink of bankruptcy, overtook France in the level of life and GDP and earned a lot of respect around the world?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Being a female has done Hillary a lot more good than harm. Millions of women are voting for her because she is a woman, and are proud to say so. I have never heard anyone, male or female, say they are not voting for her because she is a woman. It is not 1916 after all.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I have never heard anyone, male or female, say they are not voting for her because she is a woman. It is not 1916 after all.


I didn't hear anyone say they wouldn't vote for Barack Obama in 08 or 12 because he was black, and yet it seems clear this was the thinking behind many votes.

Racism or sexism do not have to walk up and hit you over the head with a hammer to prove they exist.


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> False. Communism has never been built anywhere. Communism = "everyone gets what they want; everyone works as little as he likes". It's a classic utopia.


Bernie Sanders called himself a socialist but he was not calling for an American version of the USSR with gulags, millions of murdered people and corrupt dictatorship. 

Unfettered capitalism allowed for slavery, child labour, debtors prison etc.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Bernie Sanders called himself a socialist but he was not calling for an American version of the USSR with gulags, millions of murdered people and corrupt dictatorship.
> 
> Unfettered capitalism allowed for slavery, child labour, debtors prison etc.


Marx wasn't calling for Gulags. Lenin wasn't calling for Gulags and millions of murdered and corrupt dictatorships. Neither was Mao. Yet everywhere they tried socialism that's what they ended up with. USSR stands for "Socialist", that what the second "S" means. 

Slavery of course is the exact opposite of capitalism. Capitalism = you are paid for your labour. In reality socialism is slavery. When the state owns means of production and there is no incentive, the only way to make people work is through slave labour. That's what collective farms were, that's what GULAGs were, etc...


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Racism or sexism do not have to walk up and hit you over the head with a hammer to prove they exist.


In some American discussion forums they do indeed walk up and hit you over the head. If nothing else, those Americans know how to have a decent knock-down-drag-it-out argument. They make bass player seem like the poster child for civility.


----------



## SMK

TomB19 said:


> I didn't hear anyone say they wouldn't vote for Barack Obama in 08 or 12 because he was black, and yet it seems clear this was the thinking behind many votes.
> 
> Racism or sexism do not have to walk up and hit you over the head with a hammer to prove they exist.


Nobody is denying those issues exist and always will. Of course many Americans voted for Obama because he's black, and Clinton because she's a woman, but he didn't win because of race and she didn't lose because of gender. In 2008, generational policies and Obama-mania got in Clinton's way, not gender. 8 years later, Trump-mania almost got in her way, if we are to believe the polls, but win or lose, it won't be because of gender either.


----------



## TomB19

...


----------



## olivaw

mordko said:


> Marx wasn't calling for Gulags. Lenin wasn't calling for Gulags and millions of murdered and corrupt dictatorships. Neither was Mao. Yet everywhere they tried socialism that's what they ended up with. USSR stands for "Socialist", that what the second "S" means.
> 
> Slavery of course is the exact opposite of capitalism. Capitalism = you are paid for your labour. In reality socialism is slavery. When the state owns means of production and there is no incentive, the only way to make people work is through slave labour. That's what collective farms were, that's what GULAGs were, etc...


Perhaps your argument is with Bernie. I am reasonably certain that he knew what USSR stood for and he still called himself a socialist. He's no soviet lover. 

Slavery is the ownership of humans - a capitalist concept. Plantation owners who used slave labour are hardly socialists or commies. 

There is no evidence that the mild progressive ideas that are discussed in Canada or the United States will lead to forced relocation, mass murder and loss of personal freedom.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> ...



You finally said something that makes sense.  (I keed, I keed)


----------



## TomB19

A lot of my American friends are going to be drinking heavily by later this evening. They all seem to think Trump will win by a landslide. Yeah... we'll see.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> Hmmmm, I am not sure if this proves gender bias but it certainly illustrate the negative impact of political attack. Someone in this thread (heyjude I think) said that there had been 33 Benghazi hearings, most of which blamed Hillary for the attack.




olivaw the way i see it, the Pew research definitively shows a gender bias & then only in highly-defined special circumstances - namely, the seeking of the presidency of the most powerful nation on earth.

across the last 14 years, the only times clinton's popularity ratings ever dropped were the 2 years when she sought the US presidency.

despite what you are saying, the Pew research also demonstrates that clinton weathered benghazi with her high 65% popularity rating intact.

when dirty old men snigger out insults here in cmf forum about how ms clinton was wearing an adult diaper overflowing with excrement during her 2nd debate ... & then the same DOM boast about what they claim are their senses of humour ... how can anyone fail to see that the same is a despicable sexist attack? 

there are thousands of similarly repulsive attacks on hillary clinton in this thread, each one of which is enough to make mothers want to shield their children, as michelle obama said so indignantly in new hampshire when she blasted donald trump's filthy groping language.

won't you please take a good look, olivaw. You yourself are a good man & a fine citizen, with sound wholesome human values. When women tell you pointblank: Enough! we have heard Enough Filth! surely you can be human enough to realize how very sincere the women are.

when the Pew research graph shows that hillary clinton's popularity ratings sagged notably each time she attempted the presidential summit but otherwise remained mostly high, it is my hope that you are one person who will be able to see & understand that research.


.


----------



## TomB19

What happened to Nelley? Is she retooling her personal philosophy to align with Hillary?


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> What happened to Nelley? Is she retooling her personal philosophy to align with Hillary?



did you 2 have a nice date? i love it when the young and/or sporty find each other ...


----------



## TomB19

It hasn't worked out the way I had hoped. She is making me "pump my own gas", so to speak.


----------



## humble_pie

humble_pie said:


> i love it when the young and/or sporty find each other ...



actually i've been thinking she might be that aging S&M dungeon mistress way out west - specializing in shitposts & fresh new neckties every day - but if you've had your first date already you'd probably have a good idea ...


.


----------



## SMK

On his way out, let's remember how this "political rock star" became President, twice. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...58/How-Barack-Obama-beat-Hillary-Clinton.html


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> I didn't hear anyone say they wouldn't vote for Barack Obama in 08 or 12 because he was black, and yet it seems clear this was the thinking behind many votes.
> 
> Racism or sexism do not have to walk up and hit you over the head with a hammer to prove they exist.


Obama was elected President of the United States not once but twice. The black vote only accounts for 13% of the US population so it is obvious he won because white voters voted for him in large numbers.

A lot of pundits in Europe were left with egg on their face because they predicted that "racist" white America would never vote for a black man. They were 200% wrong (100% wrong twice). 

To think otherwise may be clear to you but not to anyone else. To pretend at this late date that white America is too racist to vote for a black man, is just silly.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> To think otherwise may be clear to you but not to anyone else.


Do you represent for everyone but me?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

To be fair, Trump has weathered 10 times as many sexist attacks as Clinton, not to mention charges of racism, insanity, Islamophobia etc etc etc all based on twisting his words to mean the opposite of what he said.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> Do you represent for everyone but me?


I represent people who believe Barrack Obama was elected President, twice. Both times he was running against the whitest most white bread white men you can imagine, and both times got a majority of white votes.

It may be possible to find evidence of racism in white America but you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel, hard. Pointing to a black President is not evidence of racism, although it may be evidence of reverse racism. By that I mean it is possible a lot of people  voted for him because he was black.


----------



## SMK

Rusty O'Toole said:


> To pretend at this late date that white America is *too racist to vote for a black man*, is just silly.


or a white woman,


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> when dirty old men snigger out insults here in cmf forum about how ms clinton was wearing an adult diaper overflowing with excrement during her 2nd debate ... & then the same DOM boast about what they claim are their senses of humour ... how can anyone fail to see that the same is a despicable sexist attack?


You make a compelling argument Humble (and even called me wholesome, I'm a sucker for that  ). 

Many personal attacks on Hillary have crossed the line. It reached a crescendo in this thread when bass and nelly led a disgusting discussion about Hillary's physical wellbeing. I can certainly understand why it appears sexist to dismiss a strong, successful woman like Hillary Clinton as a frail old lady - and then proceed to describe her bodily functions in the basest possible terms. 

Bass and Nelley - I don't really know if they are sexist. They are desperate to convince people to oppose Hillary so I assume that they'll say anything. 

It bothered me more when reasonable posters started going along it. 

Trump is certainly sexist and he is willing to use sexist comments to belittle women. That 's as plain as day. 

It seems unfair to dismiss all of his supporters as sexists, but I can certainly believe that some of them are. Heck, I worked with a guy for 20 years who proudly declared his lack of respect for all women who were not immediate family members. He hates Hillary, precisely because she is a woman. 

Do you believe that Hillary has a harder time convincing voters because she is a woman? Is it that we expect different behaviour from a woman than we would expect from a man? (I'm asking your opinion).


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Obama was elected President of the United States not once but twice ...



that's what i was saying. Prior to 2008 no one thought it could happen in their lifetime. Jesse Jackson wept out loud in chicago's grant park on that night in november 2008 when barack obama became the first african american to ever pass through the eye of the needle, to break through the glass ceiling, to leap over whatever cliche barrier you want to name.

at the time, it did not even appear to be especially difficult for an african american to gain the oval office.

but flash forward 8 years & the minority shoe is on the other foot. It is agonizingly, excruciatingly difficult, transparently almost impossible, for a female to pass through that same needle.

.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> To think otherwise may be clear to you but not to anyone else. To pretend at this late date that white America is too racist to vote for a black man, is just silly.


Racism and sexism still exist. I'm a retired white guy who hangs out with a lot of retired white guys. Most are neither racist nor sexist but some ....

People let their guard down when they've had a few or when they have known you long enough.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Do you believe that Hillary has a harder time convincing voters because she is a woman? Is it that we expect different behaviour from a woman than we would expect from a man? (I'm asking your opinion).


No, she has a harder time convincing voters because she is CORRUPT. And, in spite of all the well known corruption, she still may win. Therefore, sexism exists...people who would normally not vote for a man as corrupt as Hillary are voting for her only because she is a woman.


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> You make a compelling argument Humble (and even called me wholesome, I'm a sucker for that



me i'm a sucker for good-looking guys on motorcycles ...





> Heck, I worked with a guy for 20 years who proudly declared his lack of respect for all women who were not immediate family members. He hates Hillary, precisely because she is a woman.
> 
> Do you believe that Hillary has a harder time convincing voters because she is a woman? Is it that we expect different behaviour from a woman than we would expect from a man? (I'm asking your opinion).



my thoughts are that hillary has had a much harder time convincing both male & female voters. We'll know more about the vote demographics after tonight. But there are many women voters who hate hillary with as much murderous passion as, well, as the nelliekins.

i think yours is a good guess, that many expect different behaviour from any woman who has her hands on the nuclear codes of the most powerful nation on earth.

the irony is that hillary clinton is one woman with so many decades of experience & such a hard-nosed realpolitik that she's probably among the steadiest of world leaders. The past year & especially the past few weeks have been a tempering-steel-with-fire ordeal that no other woman alive today has ever experienced. I for one would rate hillary as more stable & more predictible than vladimir putin, wouldn't you?


.


----------



## SMK

8 years ago Obama made history not Clinton, because he was the better candidate who happened to be black. Today Clinton will make history because she's the better candidate who happens to be a woman.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> To be fair, Trump has weathered 10 times as many sexist attacks as Clinton, not to mention charges of racism, insanity, Islamophobia etc etc etc all based on twisting his words to mean the opposite of what he said.



oh stop that Rusty. Trump said what he said. He meant what he said. The wall. Stop moslem immigration. Women will let you do whatever nasty thing you want to do. Maybe he won't respect the constitutional vote today, november 8th 2016.

it's all recorded history now.

.


----------



## TomB19

I have no doubt that Trump will lose, Trump will accept defeat, and tomorrow will be a new day with Hillary.

The only real problem this election is likely to have is that I didn't buy enough VFV on Friday. I was hanging onto some cash for a wild ride this week.


----------



## TomB19

humble_pie said:


> my thoughts are that hillary has had a much harder time convincing both male & female voters.


Hillary is a weak candidate. Fortunately for her, she was running against a clown car full of idiots.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> Perhaps your argument is with Bernie. I am reasonably certain that he knew what USSR stood for and he still called himself a socialist. He's no soviet lover.
> 
> Slavery is the ownership of humans - a capitalist concept. Plantation owners who used slave labour are hardly socialists or commies.
> 
> There is no evidence that the mild progressive ideas that are discussed in Canada or the United States will lead to forced relocation, mass murder and loss of personal freedom.


Oh, really? Slavery is a capitalist concept? Guess Ancient Egypt and Ancient Rome were all "capitalist" societies then.

That's like talking to someone who doesn't know 2x2 about maths.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Oh, really? Slavery is a capitalist concept? Guess Ancient Egypt and Ancient Rome were all "capitalist" societies then.


The connection of slavery to capitalism is just as valid as connecting murder to socialist leaning societies, which is to say it's not valid at all.


----------



## humble_pie

TomB19 said:


> Hillary is a weak candidate.



ooh, you yourself would be such a strong candidate

i see SK has a bunch of towns way up north, all clustered around uranium city. On lake Athabaska. There's even a sand dunes provincial park, it must be a lovely spot.

are they needing a mayor up there or something
a school board commissioner


.


----------



## TomB19

Hillary is polling at 3 points up on a guy with five bankruptcies, who claims he can fix the economy, and who is on tape as saying he likes to walk into dressing rooms where beautiful women are in a state of undress. ... and that's only the tip of the iceberg de Trump.

If Obama had Trump to run against in 08, can you imagine how one sided it would have been?

Settle down. Hillary is a weak candidate.

Hopefully, she will be a good president. We'll see.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> oh stop that Rusty. Trump said what he said. He meant what he said. The wall. Stop moslem immigration. Women will let you do whatever nasty thing you want to do. Maybe he won't respect the constitutional vote today, november 8th 2016.
> 
> it's all recorded history now.
> 
> 
> .


He said what he said. He didn't say what the media said he said. America has a right to chose who to let in and who not to let in, in other words, to secure borders like any other country. He also said Muslims should be vetted before being allowed to enter the US, and any with connections to terrorist organizations not allowed in. He said if you are rich and famous women will let you take liberties which was hardly news. The one place I agree with you, is that some of his remarks show lack of knowledge of, or respect for the Constitution. This is bothersome, but it is why they have checks and balances. He certainly has not shown less respect for the law or the Constitution than say Obama or Clinton.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

As the voting is now nearly over, I could quote Hillary Clinton and say, "at this point what difference does it make?"

Pat Buchanan thinks Trump's candidacy will make a difference long after the election and may mean the end of the Republican party as we know it. See what you think.

What Hath Trump Wrought?
Monday - November 7, 2016 at 11:01 pm


By Patrick J. Buchanan

“If I don’t win, this will be the greatest waste of time, money and energy in my lifetime,” says Donald Trump.

Herewith, a dissent. Whatever happens Tuesday, Trump has made history and has forever changed American politics.

Though a novice in politics, he captured the Party of Lincoln with the largest turnout of primary voters ever, and he has inflicted wounds on the nation’s ruling class from which it may not soon recover.

Bush I and II, Mitt Romney, the neocons and the GOP commentariat all denounced Trump as morally and temperamentally unfit. Yet, seven of eight Republicans are voting for Trump, and he drew the largest and most enthusiastic crowds of any GOP nominee.

Not only did he rout the Republican elites, he ash-canned their agenda and repudiated the wars into which they plunged the country.

Trump did not create the forces that propelled his candidacy. But he recognized them, tapped into them, and unleashed a gusher of nationalism and populism that will not soon dissipate.

Whatever happens Tuesday, there is no going back now.

How could the Republican establishment advance anew the trade and immigration policies that their base has so thunderously rejected?

How can the GOP establishment credibly claim to speak for a party that spent the last year cheering a candidate who repudiated the last two Republican presidents and the last two Republican nominees?

Do mainstream Republicans think that should Trump lose a Bush Restoration lies ahead? The dynasty is as dead as the Romanovs.

The media, whose reputation has sunk to Congressional depths, has also suffered a blow to its credibility.

Its hatred of Trump has been almost manic, and WikiLeaks revelations of the collusion between major media and Clintonites have convinced skeptics that the system is rigged and the referees of democracy are in the tank.

But it is the national establishment that has suffered most.

The Trump candidacy exposed what seems an unbridgeable gulf between this political class and the nation in whose name it purports to speak.

Consider the litany of horrors it has charged Trump with.

He said John McCain was no hero, that some Mexican illegals are “rapists.” He mocked a handicapped reporter. He called some women “pigs.” He wants a temporary ban to Muslim immigration. He fought with a Gold Star mother and father. He once engaged in “fat-shaming” a Miss Universe, calling her “Miss Piggy,” and telling her to stay out of Burger King. He allegedly made crude advances on a dozen women and starred in the “Access Hollywood” tape with Billy Bush.

While such “gaffes” are normally fatal for candidates, Trump’s followers stood by him through them all.

Why? asks an alarmed establishment. Why, in spite of all this, did Trump’s support endure? Why did the American people not react as they once would have? Why do these accusations not have the bite they once did?

Answer. We are another country now, an us-or-them country.

Middle America believes the establishment is not looking out for the nation but for retention of its power. And in attacking Trump it is not upholding some objective moral standard but seeking to destroy a leader who represents a grave threat to that power.

Trump’s followers see an American Spring as crucial, and they are not going to let past boorish behavior cause them to abandon the last best chance to preserve the country they grew up in.

These are the Middle American Radicals, the MARs of whom my late friend Sam Francis wrote.

They recoil from the future the elites have mapped out for them and, realizing the stakes, will overlook the faults and failings of a candidate who holds out the real promise of avoiding that future.

They believe Trump alone will secure the borders and rid us of a trade regime that has led to the loss of 70,000 factories and 5 million manufacturing jobs since NAFTA. They believe Trump is the best hope for keeping us out of the wars the Beltway think tanks are already planning for the sons of the “deplorables” to fight.

Moreover, they see the establishment as the quintessence of hypocrisy. Trump is instructed to stop using such toxic phrases as “America First” and “Make America Great Again” by elites who think 55 million abortions since Roe is a milestone of moral progress.

And what do they have in common with a woman who thinks partial-birth abortion, which her predecessor in the Senate, Pat Moynihan, called “infanticide,” is among the cherished “reproductive rights” of women?

While a Trump victory would create the possibility of a coalition of conservatives, populists, patriots and nationalists governing America, should he lose, America’s future appears disunited and grim.

But, would the followers of Donald Trump, whom Hillary Clinton has called “racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic … bigots,” to the cheers of her media retainers, unite behind her should she win?

No. Win or lose, as Sen. Edward Kennedy said at the Democratic Convention of 1980, “The work goes on, the cause endures.”


----------



## mordko

TomB19 said:


> The connection of slavery to capitalism is just as valid as connecting murder to socialist leaning societies, which is to say it's not valid at all.


Sure. If we don't count millions exterminated in:

- Red terror
- The Great Purge
- Soviet Gulags
- Soviet extermination campaigns against Poles, Ukrainians, Jews and others
- Cambodian genocide
- Great Leap Forward
- Cultural Revolution
- Hungary 1956
- Poland 1967
- Prague 1968
- East Germany in late 1940s
- North Korean GULAGn and extermination campaigns
- Murderous campaigns against Vietnamese farmers
...

I am sure I missed an odd 10 million murders here and there.


----------



## TomB19

... the Clinton campaign 2016


----------



## sags

Good or bad, Trump will be a power broker within the Republican Party if he chooses to stay in politics.

I am doubtful it will hold his interest for long. 

He probably has better things to do and will simply enjoy the pilgrimages of the wannabees trudging to his doorstep, seeking his blessing.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> Sure. If we don't count millions exterminated in:
> 
> - Red terror
> - The Great Purge
> - Soviet Gulags
> - Soviet extermination campaigns against Poles, Ukrainians, Jews and others
> - Cambodian genocide
> - Great Leap Forward
> - Cultural Revolution
> - Hungary 1956
> - Poland 1967
> - Prague 1968
> - East Germany in late 1940s
> - North Korean GULAGn and extermination campaigns
> - Murderous campaigns against Vietnamese farmers
> ...
> 
> I am sure I missed an odd 10 million murders here and there.


Mass confusion over the difference between communism and socialism.

As President Obama said in the interview, Americans already embrace socialism in Social Security, Medicare and education. 

Taxpayer socialism bailed out the big US banks and auto companies. It was within the collective interest to bail them out.

Taxpayer socialism is 47 million Americans collecting food stamps. It is within the collective interest to feed them.

They just don't like to acknowledge it as "socialism", because they consider that a bad word.


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> Mass confusion over the difference between communism and socialism.


... and even more over totalitarianism and dictatorism, apparently.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> He said what he said. He didn't say what the media said he said. America has a right to chose who to let in and who not to let in, in other words, to secure borders like any other country. He also said Muslims should be vetted before being allowed to enter the US, and any with connections to terrorist organizations not allowed in. He said if you are rich and famous women will let you take liberties which was hardly news.
> 
> The one place I agree with you, is that some of his remarks show lack of knowledge of, or respect for the Constitution. This is bothersome, but it is why they have checks and balances. He certainly has not shown less respect for the law or the Constitution than say Obama or Clinton.




sorry Rusty but it does appear to me that you've got it wrong.

it was the responsible & serious media that got it right. The big media that reported verbatim what, exactly, donald trump did say. Including providing audio recordings & videotapes.

in the case of the famous groping tape, trump's original voice recording was broadcast to hundreds of millions of listeners. 

trump did not say women-will-let-you-take-liberties. Alas those words are Rusty's own made-up fiction.

what trump said is that women will let you do whatever you want. Grab women by the ***** [sic], said donald trump.

re immigration, trump did not say america-has-a-right-to-choose-who-to-let-in-and-who-not-to-let-in-in-other-words-to-secure-borders-like-any-other-country.

what trump said - in full video replay - was that mexicans coming into the US are bringing drugs. He said mexicans are bringing crime. He said mexicans are rapists. 

to make himself even more crystal clear, trump said the US should build a wall against mexican migration & mexico should pay for this wall.

as for the constitution, donald trump said frivolously that he would decide if he would respect the upcoming presidential vote, only after the vote.

but here you are accusing barack obama & hillary clinton of disrespecting the american constitution. Would you have examples of their breaches of proper respect, please.


.


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> Mass confusion over the difference between communism and socialism.
> 
> As President Obama said in the interview, Americans already embrace socialism in Social Security, Medicare and education.
> 
> Taxpayer socialism bailed out the big US banks and auto companies. It was within the collective interest to bail them out.
> 
> Taxpayer socialism is 47 million Americans collecting food stamps. It is within the collective interest to feed them.
> 
> They just don't like to acknowledge it as "socialism", because they consider that a bad word.


Obama didn't invent socialism, so he does not get to define it. Here is the actual definition: Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by government control of the means of production. 

In the US nothing is being produced by government-owned organizations. Actual production is driven by private ownership and market forces. Government taxes those that produce and then "gives away" the goodies for "free". It won't be real socialism until the government destroys the market and takes full control of the means of production. Then you will have exactly what every socialist society had, i.e. slavery and murder.

And why people want to name themselves after an ideology which murdered hundreds of millions? Beats me.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

trump did not say women-will-let-you-take-liberties. Alas those words are Rusty's own made-up fiction.

what trump said is that women will let you do whatever you want. Grab women by the ***** [sic], said donald trump.

I was trying to be polite by paraphrasing since the word ***** seems to offend your sensitive ears (as it does mine). You are quite correct, he did say that women will let you do whatever you want (if you are rich and famous). This is a far cry from sexual assault as it was reported in the media.

It seems you are more offended by the way Trump says things than what he says. The fact is, there is a problem with illegal drugs in the US and Mexican drug gangs are a big part of the problem. If you look at crime statistics in the southwest you will find there are a lot of illegal Mexican criminals. How not wanting criminals sneaking into the country is 'racist' is beyond me, especially since Mexican is not a race, it is a nationality.

But, we have been over all this before ad nauseum and once again, at this point what difference does it make? I am not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me. We each have our own reality which to me is the interesting part.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Mordko I believe close cooperation between business and government is characteristic of fascism which is the prevailing system in the US at the present time. Or oligarchy, or maybe kleptocracy.


----------



## lonewolf :)

humble_pie said:


> should be *seems like*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh stop lying
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> please stop lying
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you've got this backwards :biggrin:
> clinton critics are supposed to say that hillary clinton *fattened* the money world
> 
> 
> .


 Humble Google Clinton body count There is no doubt about the long list & circumstances surrounding the deaths of people who the Clintons would & might want dead has to make one wonder if she is a social path killer.

As for Sharia law there is a large number of Moslem immigrants moving into Europe that want it & their goal is to dominate the world. Sweden is becoming the rape capital of the world. I might of been sarcastic saying Hillary wants Sharia law but I was not lying that her actions could result in it. Check out some of the you tube videos Europe has gone crazy letting those into there country mostly men then supply them with free benefits as they have no respect for the laws of Europe & its people. They tell the Europeans straight to their face they are going to make countries of Europe Moslem by out numbering them rape their women & make Moslem babies. If not Moslem death or leave Europe is there thinking.They want to do the same in North America


----------



## james4beach

Live report from the USA, at my office 16:50 pacific in a big American city

People are very nervous here. I wouldn't say the mood is very good. Some results have started coming in, looks like Indiana is Trump.

My coworkers talk about fear of the well being of their country and how things will deteriorate if the country votes in a man who "plays by no rules".


----------



## olivaw

Hillary is ahead in Florida with 65% of the vote in and in North Carolina with about 35% of the vote in. 

The universe is unfolding as it should. 

ETA: Trump caught up in FL as rural votes came in.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> The connection of slavery to capitalism is just as valid as connecting murder to socialist leaning societies, which is to say it's not valid at all.


No silly. Productivity in private hands is capitalism. 

Hardly important beyond being a counter to mordy's misuse of the word socialism. I stand by what I said but I am not going to argue it further in this thread.


----------



## bass player

james4beach said:


> My coworkers talk about fear of the well being of their country and how things will deteriorate if the country votes in a man who "plays by no rules".


Do those same people actually believe that Hillary "plays by the rules"?


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> the irony is that hillary clinton is one woman with so many decades of experience & such a hard-nosed realpolitik that she's probably among the steadiest of world leaders. The past year & especially the past few weeks have been a tempering-steel-with-fire ordeal that no other woman alive today has ever experienced. I for one would rate hillary as more stable & more predictible than vladimir putin, wouldn't you?
> .


Absolutely. I view Hillary Clinton as the more trustworthy leader.


----------



## james4beach

bass player said:


> Do those same people actually believe that Hillary "plays by the rules"?


Among the people I work with, there is far more trust for Hillary. She plays by the rules and customs of politics. The stories of her breaking the rules are far exaggerated (but definitely she has violated some things).

In contrast, Trump is a crooked business man, ran a total fraud of a university, and has screwed countless business partners and investors. He lies constantly. On top of that, he's an unpredictable wildcard. He doesn't even understand the basic rules and customs of politics. He knows nothing of procedure.


----------



## agent99

It's getting close guys 


- Just 3 posts to go.


----------



## mordko

olivaw said:


> No silly. Productivity in private hands is capitalism.
> 
> Hardly important beyond being a counters to mordy's misuse of the word socialism. I stand by what I said but I am not going to argue it further in this thread.


My misuse? Aghm. It's more your stunning ignorance. Here are other examples of "misuse" from the founders and other famous socialists:

Henri de Saint-Simon: "the state is to carry out production and distribution".
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon: "property is theft"
Karl Marx: socialism or, as Marx termed it, the first phase of communist society, can be viewed as a "transitional stage characterized by common or state ownership of the means of production"

And here is a list of socialist countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

Between them, socialist states exterminated far more people than the Nazis. Then again, there are some people that are quite happy calling themselves "Nazi" as well. 

And yes, we remember how western "progressives" collaborated with and praised the murderous Soviet Socialism at the very time it was sending to prison or murdering our grandparents.


----------



## james4beach

This is a redundant comment but who cares 496 pages into this thread. I still think Trump is an expert con artist, and he's trying to con himself into the president's office. Just as he has conned numerous business partners and customers out of their money.

The flash, the cartoony persona, the ridiculous "Apprentice" TV persona he's created for himself... all part of his con game. He's really good at tricking uneducated people who are down on their luck.

He's a crook and an absolutely untrustworthy man and I'm somewhat disgusted to think that Americans may elect him as their leader. America watches too much TV.

What kind of moron thinks that electing a *fat, white billionnaire* with a history of shady dealings is going to cure the ills that landed themselves into poverty?? Are you kidding me??

Talk about con job


----------



## olivaw

^Trump is doing far better than expected. If he pulls it off, we will get a lot of posters coming out of the woodwork to tell us that they supported him all along - and why. It would be frustrating but instructive.


----------



## mordko

The markets are falling. Presumably Trump is doing better than expected.


----------



## bass player

james4beach said:


> What kind of moron thinks that electing a *fat, white billionnaire* with a history of shady dealings is going to cure the ills that landed themselves into poverty?? Are you kidding me??


She's only a millionaire. They are called Democrats...


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> The markets are falling. Presumably Trump is doing better than expected.


Some polls have had Trump ahead for weeks...many of you simply dismissed them as another "right wing conspiracy". Right wing conspiracy seems to be the Democrat phrase for "inconvenient facts".  

The CNN crew is on suicide watch...


----------



## sags

Trump winning..........say it ain't so Joe.


----------



## mordko

bass player said:


> Some polls have had Trump ahead for weeks...many of you simply dismissed them as another "right wing conspiracy". Right wing conspiracy seems to be the Democrat phrase for "inconvenient facts".


None of it is a "fact". All of it = "prediction". Clinton is still the more likely to win by far.


----------



## sags

Lots of votes still to come from the large urban centers, which predominantly vote Democratic.

A close battle in so many areas will cause a lot of problems in the aftermath.

Recounts, lawsuits and court cases..........it will be good days ahead for lawyers.


----------



## mordko

Clinton is about to overtake in Virginia.


----------



## dotnet_nerd

John King on CNN is hilarious. 

He's been harping on Miami-Dade/Broward/Palm Beach for an hour non-stop now. Incredibly desperate.


----------



## bass player

The questions to be answered:

Will Hillary accept the outcome?
Will Obama try to declare the results invalid?
Will a bunch of clueless celebrities keep their word and move?

Stay tuned...


----------



## peterk

ES futures are tanking.

PredictIt betting markets went from Trump valued at 13c to 48c in the last couple hours.
Edit: now 65c.


----------



## mordko

Starting to look like Clinton is going to win but the margin will be small. 

That's really sad that a nutty populist got quite so many people to vote for him. To be fair, a lot of his votes will have been against Clinton rather than for Trump.

If it's a narrow victory for Clinton then Republicans are probably in trouble going forward.


----------



## dotnet_nerd

mordko said:


> Starting to look like Clinton is going to win but the margin will be small.
> 
> That's really sad that a nutty populist got quite so many people to vote for him. To be fair, a lot of his votes will have been against Clinton rather than for Trump.
> 
> If it's a narrow victory for Clinton then Republicans are probably in trouble going forward.


It's not looking like that AT ALL. It looks like Trump has it...


----------



## olivaw

My wife is on the phone with her best friend in NJ. Her friend is seriously scared.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> My wife is on the phone with her best friend in NJ. Her friend is seriously scared.


We're all scared. At this point I don't know which candidate is scarier. They both scare the hell out of me.

At this point the popular vote seems to be as close as it could be.

Electoral vote Trump 150 Clinton 110 according to Bloomberg

SPY just shot up to 215.54 in after hours trading


----------



## james4beach

MEXICAN PESO DOWN 9% .. I repeat NINE PERCENT

Trump odds way up

S&P 500 futures down nearly 3%

F*ing hell


----------



## mordko

The markets are going absolutely nuts. If Trump wins (which I am betting he won't) then he might throw US and us into recessions even before he actually takes power.


----------



## new dog

It is just as sad that people would vote for a corrupt person like Hillary. I would love it if she was destroyed completely and Dems learn the errors of their ways. Many Trump voters are just voting for him in the small hope of real change not because they think he is any good.


----------



## james4beach

For someone who thinks Clinton is going to win, you'll want to buy ES futures or MXNUSD right now

I'm staying out of it. Just phoned one of the best traders I know, a Bay Street friend of mine. The guy was long and then sold everything at the close today


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

My TOS account shows SPY up to 215.54 is this incorrect?


----------



## olivaw

John King on CNN is hinting that it is pretty much time to call Florida for Trump.


----------



## james4beach

USDCAD is faring quite well, all considered. Up 1.3%

Pretty huge for a normal day, but given the turmoil elsewhere in markets, this is lucky... the market doesn't think Canada will get wiped out by a Trump victory.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I'm standing by my prediction that Trump will win the popular vote but Clinton will win the election. Ready for a bombardment of tomatoes, but please take them out of the can lol.


----------



## james4beach

Futures so far

Crude oil down 3%
S&P 500 down 4%
Nikkei down over 4%
Gold up 3%

As Rusty says, if the result swings back to Clinton, there is massive money to be made in the futures market right now. I wouldn't touch them personally, but if Clinton wins you will see the S&P 500 go up at LEAST 4% from this point. Fortunes will be made and lost tonight in futures


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> The markets are going absolutely nuts. If Trump wins (which I am betting he won't) then he might throw US and us into recessions even before he actually takes power.


Jeez MORONKO you are living up to your name again-Trump hasn't won anything yet and idiots are already blaming the guy for a rotten economy.


----------



## bass player

If Trump hangs on to win, how many truckloads of "missing" ballots will suddenly be found tomorrow that change the outcome?


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I'm standing by my prediction that Trump will win the popular vote but Clinton will win the election. Ready for a bombardment of tomatoes, but please take them out of the can lol.


Tomatoes? I want to hug you right now. LOL


----------



## james4beach

Nikkei is only down 2% apparently. If that's true, US markets may normalize somewhat by the open. Perhaps it won't be a bloodbath.


----------



## mordko

Looney is starting a nosedive. Not just against USD but also against other currencies.


----------



## TomB19

mordko said:


> Looney is starting a nosedive. Not just against USD but also against other currencies.


Damn that Trump!


----------



## mordko

USD/Yen = -3.4%. Everyone is buying Yen and gold.


----------



## james4beach

WTF, why is CAD down against GBP?

I'm seeing CADGBP down over 2%


----------



## james4beach

If Trump wins, gold is absolutely going to soar tomorrow in CAD.

MNT and CEF.A will be up over 5% in that scenario

Permanent portfolio to the rescue. As always.


----------



## bass player

The markets will recover like they always do.


----------



## bass player

I'm just about to crack a bottle of 25-year old rum... :victorious:


----------



## james4beach

Mexican peso now down almost 11% tonight.

Outright currency crash. This could stress the banks that provide FX derivatives and hedging. And watch what it does to import/export businesses and factories everywhere. Man oh man


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Damn that Trump!


This one's for you Tommy Boy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDm1xD_Kwyc


----------



## james4beach

bass player said:


> The markets will recover like they always do.


In what time frame?


----------



## mordko

james4beach said:


> WTF, why is CAD down against GBP?
> 
> I'm seeing CADGBP down over 2%


Yep. I guess everyone is moving back to England.


----------



## andrewf

NYT projecting Trump presidency at 88% chance. The markets are going to be a shitshow if Trump wins.

For all the people who were saying that Senate/House/SCOTUS would keep Trump restrained, you better hope so, given the GOP will control it all. I don't count on GOP having any spine to stand up to Trump.


----------



## james4beach

Sounds like people wanting to bring GBP assets over to Canada are about to catch a lucky break


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> In what time frame?


About one week after you expire.


----------



## james4beach

I told you guys that the Iowa Electronic Market (best track record out there) showed only 53% chance of Clinton win


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> NYT projecting Trump presidency at 88% chance. The markets are going to be a shitshow if Trump wins.
> 
> For all the people who were saying that Senate/House/SCOTUS would keep Trump restrained, you better hope so, given the GOP will control it all. I don't count on GOP having any spine to stand up to Trump.


Yeah lower taxes is crazy Fidel Castro stuff.


----------



## bass player

james4beach said:


> In what time frame?


No idea.


----------



## james4beach

I'm seeing conflicting Nikkei quotes

Some sources say down 2%, others (US traded futures) say 5%. Any idea what's going on? Does anyone here have interactive brokers with futures data?


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Mexican peso now down almost 11% tonight.
> 
> Outright currency crash. This could stress the banks that provide FX derivatives and hedging. And watch what it does to import/export businesses and factories everywhere. Man oh man


That 11% is how much the beautiful wall is gonna cost HEYZOOZ and the gang.


----------



## lonewolf :)

Wall street backing Hillary of course there going to play games with the financial markets trying to scare voters into voting for Hillary.


----------



## bass player

If Trump hangs on, many of those who criticized Trump for not promising to automatically accept the results of an election before it even happened will be in full outrage mode tomorrow not accepting the outcome.

You can guarantee that.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Yeah lower taxes is crazy Fidel Castro stuff.


Well, Trump doesn't actually have an articulated platform.

He's said he wants to eliminate environmental regulations (he wants to eliminate the 'Department of Environmental'). He wants to play chicken with Russia over eastern Europe. He wants to rip up NAFTA. It's going to be a clusterfuck.


----------



## james4beach

CAD is down 3% against EUR ... unbelievable.


----------



## dotnet_nerd

Trump won Florida, that's a mathematical certainty now with 95% votes in and blue counties 100% in.

John King refuses to admit it.


----------



## olivaw

dotnet_nerd said:


> Trump won Florida, that's a mathematical certainty now with 95% votes in and blue counties 100% in.
> 
> John King refuses to admit it.


John King sounds like he wants to call it for Trump but he doesn't make the call. He's waiting on the folks in the back room.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Latest word from Bloomberg is the S&P is down more than 100 points in the last 2 hours, WOW!

They are also saying Trump has won Florida.


----------



## james4beach

Notice that the US Dollar Index is crashing tonight.

S&P 500 futures are almost at the 5% circuit breaker. At that point the futures exchange will halt trading; this was a safeguard to help slow down market crashes.


----------



## TomB19

Clinton is currently at 50%. Wow.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Electoral votes Trump 197 Clinton 131


----------



## james4beach

Trump will start off his presidency by wiping out 401(k) retirement plans


----------



## bass player

I put CBC on for 5 minutes....someone better put them on suicide watch


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> If Trump hangs on, many of those who criticized Trump for not promising to automatically accept the results of an election before it even happened will be in full outrage mode tomorrow not accepting the outcome.
> 
> You can guarantee that.


LOL-they are already blaming Trump for a bad economy-I thought they would start doing that after maybe a couple weeks-he doesn't even have 270 yet and he is to blame for unemployment.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

james4beach said:


> Trump will start off his presidency by wiping out 401(k) retirement plans


What's left of them after 8 years of ZIRP job loss and falling incomes.


----------



## olivaw

If Trump wins, he is going to need to say something incredibly reassuring in his acceptance speech to stabilize these markets.


----------



## james4beach

Thing is, S&P 500 was already dramatically overvalued. And corp earnings are slowing. If markets fall in the coming year, it won't be Trump that caused it.

CAPE was at 27 for much of this year. The market was persistently overvalued. Sometimes it just takes a little push to get price discovery going


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Well, Trump doesn't actually have an articulated platform.
> 
> He's said he wants to eliminate environmental regulations (he wants to eliminate the 'Department of Environmental'). He wants to play chicken with Russia over eastern Europe. He wants to rip up NAFTA. It's going to be a clusterfuck.


You are totally, proudly ignorant.


----------



## Nelley

Rusty O'Toole said:


> What's left of them after 8 years of ZIRP job loss and falling incomes.


CNN says that was Trumps' fault.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> If Trump wins, he is going to need to say something incredibly reassuring in his acceptance speech to stabilize these markets.


What would you like Einstein-Crooked Hillary was all over the media claiming Trump was just out to help the wealthy.


----------



## james4beach

Ah, there goes the Nikkei quote. LOL appears that -2% was wishful thinking, it's now down nearly -5%.

At least the S&P 500 has bounced up a bit to only -4.0% decline


----------



## Nelley

Now Nate Silver says Trump will win-what a prognosticator-he must have a crystal ball.


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> What would you like Einstein-Crooked Hillary was all over the media claiming Trump was just out to help the wealthy.


What I would like sock puppet, is for him to say that he wasn't serious about half his election promises.


----------



## TomB19

Trump now 61% chance of success, according to fivethirtyeight.com.


----------



## indexxx

CTV website now has Trump at 201 and Clinton at 197- what a nail-biter!


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

S&P 2039 if it settles anywhere near 2050 in 10 days time means a nice payday for Rusty.


----------



## Earl

Are you guys expecting to snatch up a lot of bargains in the stock market tomorrow?


----------



## andrewf

What will also be interesting is the shitstorm when Trump gives his 'base' the finger and reneges on the stuff in his platform that was impossible. The wall, deporting >10 million people, the muslim ban, the tax cuts/debt default.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Bloomberg says Trump 216 Clinton 197


----------



## olivaw

indexxx said:


> CTV website now has Trump at 201 and Clinton at 197- what a nail-biter!


My nails are gone. I'm chewing my fingers now.


----------



## peterk

NY Times has 95%+ certainty for Republican President, House, AND Senate.


----------



## TomB19

Earl said:


> Are you guys expecting to snatch up a lot of bargains in the stock market tomorrow?


I wish I had held back more cash on Friday. lol!


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> What I would like sock puppet, is for him to say that he wasn't serious about half his election promises.


Which ones genius?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Now Trump 222 Clinton 197 per Bloomberg


----------



## gibor365

Earl said:


> Are you guys expecting to snatch up a lot of bargains in the stock market tomorrow?


I'm planning to do some buying from the morning


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

peterk said:


> NY Times has 95%+ certainty for Republican President, House, AND Senate.


Jesus. Prepare for a horde of Volvos and Range Rovers with Clinton bumper stickers flooding over the border claiming refugee status.


----------



## mordko

As it happens, I a 81% cash but I am not buying anything tomorrow or in the next two months. Just wish all this cash wasn't in CAD.


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> What will also be interesting is the shitstorm when Trump gives his 'base' the finger and reneges on the stuff in his platform that was impossible. The wall, deporting >10 million people, the muslim ban, the tax cuts/debt default.


OTOH just a couple days ago you said Trump could not win so you aren't exactly Nostrodomus here. You don't have even a clue what this guy will or won't do.


----------



## gibor365

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Now Trump 222 Clinton 197 per Bloomberg


As ner NY Times Clinton 188 , Trump 187


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

gibor365 said:


> As ner NY Times Clinton 188 , Trump 187


 LOL NY Times


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> OTOH just a couple days ago you said Trump could not win so you aren't exactly Nostrodomus here. You don't have even a clue what this guy will or won't do.


None of us have a clue what this guy will do. That's the problem.


----------



## mordko

Nelley said:


> OTOH just a couple days ago you said Trump could not win so you aren't exactly Nostrodomus here. You don't have even a clue what this guy will or won't do.


And you think that is a GOOD thing???


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Is anybody wondering how the polls predicting an easy Clinton win could get it so wrong? Incompetence, bias, or fixed? Discuss.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> None of us have a clue what this guy will do. That's the problem.


He can't do what he said he would do. Nobody can.

... but he has spoken of a few things that would be brilliant, if he can get them done. Term limits, etc.

This may not be all bad. It's a big F-U to politics as usual.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

AP predicts Washinton for Clinton

Bloomberg: Trump 244 Clinton 209

So Trump needs 26 and Clinton needs 61


----------



## capricorn

Even if by chance Trump does not win, the republican party has changed for good.
Trump has proven he is competitive. 
Hoping to open a bottle of Champagne when Ms. Clinton concedes.


----------



## capricorn

mordko said:


> As it happens, I a 81% cash but I am not buying anything tomorrow or in the next two months. Just wish all this cash wasn't in CAD.


what will make you buy? or what level?
I am almost 30% cash in USD right now.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Bloomberg says currencies around the world are in the shitter. In other words the US dollar is soaring at the prospect of a Trump win. Who woulda thunk it.


----------



## TomB19

capricorn said:


> Hoping to open a bottle of Champagne when Ms. Clinton concedes.


She will probably contest it and say it was rigged.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Bloomberg says currencies around the world are in the shitter. In other words the US dollar is soaring at the prospect of a Trump win. Who woulda thunk it.


Strong USD is an indicator of market weakness.


----------



## andrewf

TomB19 said:


> She will probably contest it and say it was rigged.


Trump did say the election is rigged, so he will support Hillary contesting the results, right?


----------



## new dog

The markets are dependent on central bank intervention and if they are not willing to play if Trump wins then the markets continue to go down. Otherwise markets drop and stabilize unless something crazy happens that is truly unexpected. There are a lot of things that could happen no matter who wins that tanks markets.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> He can't do what he said he would do. Nobody can.
> 
> ... but he has spoken of a few things that would be brilliant, if he can get them done. Term limits, etc.
> 
> This may not be all bad. It's a big F-U to politics as usual.


Sure, not everything he said was bad but he some of the bad things he said were awful.

Is the Republican house and senate going to stand up to him?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Strong USD is an indicator of market weakness.


Where is this info?!

I read on bloomberg opposite - only CAD$ and Mex peso are very down


> A Trump win would be the second major shock to foreign-exchange markets in less than five months after Britons voted in June to exit the European Union. The greenback fell as much as 3.5 percent against the yen, the biggest intraday decline since Brexit, 1.8 percent against the euro and 2 percent against the Swiss franc. Mexico’s peso plunged to a record.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw, it's time to put some ketchup on this **** sandwich and start chewing. lol!

If he can get lobbyists and special interests under control, he could literally go down, correctly, as the president who saved America. He has said he would bar people from lobbying for five years after leaving government.


----------



## capricorn

andrewf said:


> Trump did say the election is rigged, so he will support Hillary contesting the results, right?


in context of FBI letter, Hillary would have quite a bit of support for her contesting the results. and who would blame her. 
without a supposed ground game, all the pundits are scratching their heads as to how did he get the rural vote out to vote. that was suppose to be his weak link.

But, it is incredible how all national polls got is so wrong. 
fivethirtyeight essentially said that in the end probably the pollsters did not want to be outliers. So, maybe one but the last poll was better indicator.
Anyway, this election will damage the halo of 538 for sure.


----------



## gibor365

new dog said:


> The markets are dependent on central bank intervention and if they are not willing to play if Trump wins then the markets continue to go down. Otherwise markets drop and stabilize unless something crazy happens that is truly unexpected. There are a lot of things that could happen no matter who wins that tanks markets.


This is why I will be buying in small tranches , but frequently ... I still have 46 free trades ...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

gibor365 said:


> Where is this info?!
> 
> I read on bloomberg opposite - only CAD$ and Mex peso are very down


I'm watching Bloomberg video, their Hong Kong reporter showed all Pacific currencies down 3 - 4% except Mongolia which is holding steady.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> OTOH just a couple days ago you said Trump could not win so you aren't exactly Nostrodomus here. You don't have even a clue what this guy will or won't do.




nostradamus


----------



## gibor365

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I'm watching Bloomberg video, their Hong Kong reporter showed all Asian currencies down 3 - 4% except Mongolia which is holding steady.


so wierd :torn: why on their website info is completely opposite?!


----------



## humble_pie

could someone please explain what is a "split" state, for example florida/

would appreciate
thankx


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> so wierd :torn: why on their website info is completely opposite?!


Maybe that was before the close when people thought Hillary was going to win .


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Live report from Clinton headquarters - supporters sitting on the floor, hugging each other, tear stained faces, a general melt down.


----------



## bass player

...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> could someone please explain what is a "split" state, for example florida/
> 
> would appreciate
> thankx


Some states can split their electoral college votes, others are 'winner take all'. Only Maine and Nebraska split their votes.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Live report from Clinton headquarters - supporters sitting on the floor, hugging each other, tear stained faces, a general melt down.


How do you know it's live??


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Some states can split their electoral college votes, others are 'winner take all'.


AFAIK, only Nebraska and Maine split their EC votes.


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Live report from Clinton headquarters - supporters sitting on the floor, hugging each other, tear stained faces, a general melt down.


Just saw that on CNN. It's a somber mood among people who thought they were there to celebrate their candidate's victory. Pretty standard reaction.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> How do you know it's live??


I'm taking Bloomberg's word for it. What are you suggesting?


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> AFAIK, only Nebraska and Maine split their EC votes.


Good...you're alive. I thought you couldn't handle the results...


----------



## atrp2biz

ES futures just halted -107 to 2028.5


----------



## olivaw

On the bright side, we passed 500 pages. 

Hey, sometimes it's the little things.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I'm taking Bloomberg's word for it. What are you suggesting?


I was just making a joke...forgot the smiley


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Overnight markets are thin and prone to wild swings. Expect things to normalize tomorrow.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Good...you're alive. I thought you couldn't handle the results...


Dude, I knew you loved me. 

It's hard to type. I've chewed my nails completely and I'm now chewing my fingers to bloody stumps.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> I was just making a joke...forgot the smiley


Bloomberg reporter was on the screen with Clinton headquarters in the background, I was repeating what she said.

Dow futures limit down, locked for the rest of the night. 800 points. Peso down 11%. Emerging markets currencies and yen getting hammered. Gold up 1335.87


----------



## mordko

Apparently Clinton is only 65% among Latinos, quite a bit worse than Obama did 4 years ago. Maybe "rapists" translates into Spanish as something positive.


----------



## gibor365

atrp2biz said:


> ES futures just halted -107 to 2028.5


I just was searching at what point futures to be halted 

Can NYSE be halted too?!


----------



## gibor365

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Overnight markets are thin and prone to wild swings. Expect things to normalize tomorrow.


It can start very sharp low at 9.30am and more or less to normalize in the evening.... this is why I plan start buying in the morning....


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

mordko said:


> Apparently Clinton is only 65% among Latinos, quite a bit worse than Obama did 4 years ago. Maybe "rapists" translates into Spanish as something positive.


A lot of Latinos who are in the country legally, don't like the illegals and criminals who are giving them a black eye. They see nothing wrong with Trump's plan for a more secure border.


----------



## atrp2biz

I shouldn't say halted. It can trade, it just can't trade lower. It's back to 2035.


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> olivaw, it's time to put some ketchup on this **** sandwich and start chewing. lol!


Need .... More ...... Ketchup


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Some states can split their electoral college votes, others are 'winner take all'. Only Maine and Nebraska split their votes.



thankx
the NY Times map shows only ohio & florida as split. 

maine is still counting votes, seems like they are very slow there
nebraska went solid blue though (i think)


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> A lot of Latinos who are in the country legally, don't like the illegals and criminals who are giving them a black eye. They see nothing wrong with Trump's plan for a more secure border.


Actually. I'm surprised too. My Latino friends in Houston said that their circle of Latino friends was OK with the crackdown on illegal immigrants but they were offended by Trump's talk about criminals, racists and drug dealers. 

Maybe there really are a bunch of Latinos who wouldn't publicly admit to supporting Trump.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Clinton wins Nevada, Trump 244 Clinton 215


----------



## indexxx

god, it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. What a horror show.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

When you are born in this world you get a ticket to the freak show. When you are born in America you get a front row seat. - George Carlin

It's the world's only surrealist society. They got Las Vegas. They got a used car on the moon. Dreams Salvador Dali would envy.


----------



## gibor365

article on bloomberg *Investors, Don't Despair* :semi-twins:



> With the increased uncertainty about the election, some of the biggest funds have been boosting their cash holdings. Bank of America Merrill Lynch's latest survey of 171 funds holding assets of $443 billion, conducted between Oct. 7 and Oct. 13, showed the highest level of cash since the days after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.That's fear embodied. The issue, though, is that fund managers can't afford to be seen holding an average of 5.8 percent of their money in cash when the year-end reporting period starts -- they're paid to invest, not to hold deposits. So invest they must, and must do so before the second week of December, when liquidity goes on vacation and adding holdings becomes near-impossible. This means that if there's a sudden drop in stocks, it will be followed by fund managers cheerfully putting their cash back into the market.


----------



## humble_pie

.

extremely dumb view from the breadbin

only a few states are left to count now
several of these have strong democratic histories
i mean it's hard to imagine wisconsin voting for trump
also when they paused reporting ce soir, the 2 candidates were close

states like maine, wisconsin, iowa
i'm wondering if they have enough democratic juice left to push hillary over the top

.


----------



## peterk

humble_pie said:


> thankx
> the NY Times map shows only ohio & florida as split.


Hey Humble. The NYT map with the hatched lines means "flipped" not "split". States that flipped from the last election.


----------



## humble_pie

peterk said:


> Hey Humble. The NYT map with the hatched lines means "flipped" not "split". States that flipped from the last election.



hey
thankx


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Bloomberg shows Trump with an almost unbeatable 100,000 vote lead in Wisconsin

Slim 25,000 vote lead in Michigan

Neck and neck in Pennsylvania very tiny 2000 vote Trump lead


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> thankx
> the NY Times map shows only ohio & florida as split.
> 
> maine is still counting votes, seems like they are very slow there
> nebraska went solid blue though (i think)


I found this link at 270towin. http://www.270towin.com/content/split-electoral-votes-maine-and-nebraska


----------



## humble_pie

^^

so strange
i think of wisconsin as all those radicals & ex ny city leftwings in madison
living in their frank lloyd wright houses

dairy cows all over the countryside
& a lot of mild-mannered farmers descended from scandinavians

not your typical trump supporters
.


----------



## olivaw

NYT is giving Trump >95%. 

It looks like Van Jones was correct when he said a few weeks ago - _Trump is like Jason, you think he's dead and he keeps coming back_.

ETA: Van Jones just came on CNN. Powerful speech.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

DJIA S&P and NASDAQ all down about 5%


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

humble_pie said:


> ^^
> 
> so strange
> i think of wisconsin as all those radicals & ex ny city leftwings in madison
> living in their frank lloyd wright houses
> 
> dairy cows all over the countryside
> & a lot of mild-mannered farmers descended from scandinavians
> 
> not your typical trump supporters
> .


In your mind who are the typical Trump supporters?


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> NYT is giving Trump >95%



do you suppose democrats could cripple the nation with a general strike?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

They've tried everything else.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> do you suppose democrats could cripple the nation with a general strike?


I don't think there will be a general strike. Republicans (probably) won the presidency, the house and the senate. Democrats have no choice but to accept the outcome.


----------



## TomB19

Those folks in Wisconsin have been out sourced, had their earning power eroded, and watched the 1% become obscenely wealthy... just like everyone else.

Bernie was the one who first showed how much anger there is out there. He said the Democrats and Republicans (this was before Trump was the nominee) don't understand how angry people are.


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> do you suppose democrats could cripple the nation with a general strike?


They still have the filibuster in the Senate. That's the only check on Trump, for now.


----------



## peterk

humble_pie said:


> .
> i'm wondering if they have enough democratic juice left to push hillary over the top
> 
> .


Clinton could still take it if Trump misses on all three PA, NH, Mich. Those are neck in neck. It actually looks really close to me, I'm not sure why the networks are calling it a Trump victory with 95% certainty already.


----------



## andrewf

peterk said:


> Clinton could still take it if Trump misses on all three PA, Wisc, Mich. Those are neck in neck. It actually looks really close to me, I'm not sure why the networks are calling it a Trump victory with 95% certainty already.


Trump is leading by 4% in Wisconsin with 90% reporting. It's done.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> They still have the filibuster in the Senate. That's the only check on Trump, for now.



i'm with peterk although i suspect there is probably something we don't know ...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

One thing about Trump, he goes to the White House without baggage. He doesn't owe anybody a damn thing for their support, not even his own party.


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> One thing about Trump, he goes to the White House without baggage. He doesn't owe anybody a damn thing for their support, not even his own party.


True dat!

Between Trump and Bernie, Trump is far more capable of affecting change. Sometimes it takes an ******* to get the job done. In this case, I don't think Trump is up to it but Trump has a better chance than Bernie would have.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump ahead by 50,000 votes in Pennsylvania. Hillary was supposed to have that one in the bag.


----------



## peterk

andrewf said:


> Trump is leading by 4% in Wisconsin with 90% reporting. It's done.


With Wisconsin, Arizona and Alaska he's still only at 268. He needs one of NH, PA, Mich to clinch it. PA looks like it's about to be called R.


----------



## olivaw

Some Trump promises:

- nominate pro-life justices to the Supreme Court
- repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act
- have a special prosecutor to prosecute (and jail) his opponent
- renegotiate America's debt
- invoice Japan and other nations for America's NATO contribution
- scrap NAFTA
- build a wall


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Clinton leading in New Hampshire by 100 votes


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> Some Trump promises:
> 
> - nominate pro-life justices to the Supreme Court
> - repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act
> - have a special prosecutor to prosecute (and jail) his opponent
> - renegotiate America's debt
> - invoice Japan and other nations for America's NATO contribution
> - scrap NAFTA
> - build a wall


Trump for the White House, Hillary for the Big House


----------



## olivaw

Paul Begala (CNN dem) is saying that Hillary will win popular vote, even if Trump wins the electoral college.


----------



## bass player

The media is holding a wake....do you think they would have done that if Hillary had won?


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Clinton leading in New Hampshire by 100 votes


Maybe they will cut her a deal on new granite for her kitchen. That's where she'll be spending more of her time.

Her speaking fees will probably be discounted for a while. lol!


----------



## gibor365

When gonna be Trump's first President's speech?


----------



## humble_pie

the last time as scary in america was the 1962 kennedy/khrushchev missile crisis in cuba.

even 9/11 was not as scary, since the whole country was united close together

but donald trump as russia's puppet in washington is scary stuff


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> When gonna be Trump's first President's speech?


Technically, inauguration day.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Technically, inauguration day.


Not technically, but actually? Very soon Trump gonna guarantee presidency, I understand he should give a speech, shouldn't he?


----------



## bass player

Mainstream media is having a meltdown...it's great viewing


----------



## andrewf

gibor365 said:


> Not technically, but actually? Very soon Trump gonna guarantee presidency, I understand he should give a speech, shouldn't he?


Usually the winner waits until the loser concedes.


----------



## new dog

humble_pie said:


> the last time as scary in america was the 1962 kennedy/khrushchev missile crisis in cuba.
> 
> even 9/11 was not as scary, since the whole country was united close together
> 
> but donald trump as russia's puppet in washington is scary stuff


The only thing scarier is if Hillary wins. I agree with you though she would show Russia who is boss as she blames Russia for everything bad in this world. I am sure Trump will go straight to Moscow and tell Putin he has the keys to the world outside of North America.


----------



## sags

I fell asleep and just woke up to this ?

I am stunned.

I have said many times the level of anger among the population is very high, but I fear that Trump is not a stable solution.

I hope the Trump faithful are smarter than I am.......I truly do.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> the last time as scary in america was the 1962 kennedy/khrushchev missile crisis in cuba.
> 
> even 9/11 was not as scary, since the whole country was united close together
> 
> but donald trump as russia's puppet in washington is scary stuff


I'm waiting to hear his acceptance speech. Normally a winner is supposed to be gracious and inclusive and lay the groundwork for reconciliation. I am not sure he will, but we can hope.

I can't shake the feeling that we are all in trouble and I imagine that many others feel the same way. The populist anti-elite side won. It's uncharted territory.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Hillary not getting the votes from women she expected. Feminists calling for their sisters to vote with their vaginas disappointed. I guess it's too hard to hold the pencil.


----------



## peterk

Well, seems like they aren't going to call it for a while yet, but PA is President Trump's for sure now... Time for bed!


----------



## gibor365

As per bloomberg, Japan's market -> ALL 100% of stocks are down!


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump 264 Clinton 215 AP projects Trump wins Pennsylvania.

Well there you have it.


----------



## sags

Geez.........even the Trump surrogates on CNN are muted and look stunned and scared.

It is like everyone is walking on eggshells and doesn't know exactly what to do now.


----------



## gibor365

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump 264 Clinton 215 AP projects Trump wins Pennsylvania.


Yeap, 1 more state and Trump is officially POTUS


----------



## james4beach

indexxx said:


> god, it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. What a horror show.


Absolutely, a horror show.

The Canadian govt immigration web site has crashed. Check it out for youself
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/

At least MXN peso stabilized at -9% drop. Canadian dollar still hasn't suffered that much vs USD, but the bigger story is that *all North American currencies have plummeted against world currencies* ... because Trump is going to destroy the entire region's economy.

You're going to want to be holding some gold. I doubled my gold exposure within the last month.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> Geez.........even the Trump surrogates on CNN are muted and look stunned and scared.
> 
> It is like everyone is walking on eggshells and doesn't know exactly what to do now.


The white haired guy seemed muted. Corey is his typical obnoxious self.


----------



## sags

I agree........the white haired guy looks like he pooped himself.

Even Corey is muted though. He is usually quite animated and he is calm and sounds like he is trying to convince himself.

He did say......and I think he is dead on.......that people are more angry than the politicians or media thought.

I have rattled on about wealth and income disparity............well this is what it causes in political terms.

It isn't any wonder European leaders called wealth and income disparity one of the most dangerous problems they face.


----------



## sags

Many of the Trump advocates look like they have done something really bad and are waiting in the school principals office to learn their punishment.

It is an eerie scene on these news sets.


----------



## james4beach

sags said:


> I have rattled on about wealth and income disparity............well this is what it causes in political terms.


I talk about it a lot too. Unfortunately, Trump is not the man to fix that. His unskilled (and frankly RANDOM) direction will just make America poorer, and more unstable.

*Best case scenario*: Trump really does nothing, and the wisdom of Congress and other branches keeps things operating as normal until there's a better president.

*Worst case scenario*: Use your imagination. I doubt it will happen.


----------



## bass player

Donald Trump, mostly by himself, just became the President of the United States.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

CNN = Clinton News Network. A lot of people are thinking over their life choices right now. Even more people are waking up that they were misled by the media who told them Trump had no chance. Maybe they were wrong about him being an insane monster as well. In any case, America has had crazy Presidents before and survived.


----------



## james4beach

Let's not forget that the obese, fast food-loving Trump might well have a heart attack and drop dead within a few years


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Donald Trump, mostly by himself, just became the President of the United States.


True.........and he is known to be very vindictive and holds a grudge. We shall see how that plays out......even with fellow Republicans.

Please tell me that Ben Carson and Rudy Guliani aren't going to get high level positions in a Trump cabinet........please.


----------



## olivaw

Trump did it on his own alright. He's a populist who ran on an anti-trade, protectionist platform. He lost 3/3 debates, he insulted women, he insulted latinos, he tweeted crazy stuff in the middle of the night ... and he won the electoral college vote (probably not the popular vote). 

Populists are gaining power in many countries. 

The only bright spot that I can see is that it will slow the mad dash towards globalization.


----------



## olivaw

CNN is reporting that Hillary Clinton will not be heading over to her rally. 

I hope they are wrong.


----------



## sags

This has been a historic thread, that shows how wrong the pundits, main stream media and I were.

Take all those polls.........and shove them where the sun don't shine.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It would be just like her.


----------



## olivaw

Van Jones .... powerful


----------



## sags

olivaw said:


> CNN is reporting that Hillary Clinton will not be heading over to her rally.
> 
> I hope they are wrong.


Maybe she started celebrating too early.........as in the last few nights with celebrities smiling, laughing and lecturing.

Beyonce, Jay Z, Lady Gaga.......in her black Fascist looking jacket...........didn't help in main street America, in my opinion.

Maybe I am just too old to relate to their music.

Give me Willie Nelson...........and friends.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

If you want to, you can make a poll come out however you like. If you want the Democrat to win, just phone lots of registered Democrats or take the poll in a strong Democrat area.


----------



## olivaw

.. and the crowd at the Trump centre is yelling

"Lock her up". 

F....K


----------



## sags

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you want to, you can make a poll come out however you like. If you want the Democrat to win, just phone lots of registered Democrats or take the poll in a strong Democrat area.


True, but what credibility would they have left ?


----------



## indexxx

olivaw said:


> .. and the crowd at the Trump centre is yelling
> 
> "Lock her up".
> 
> F....K


I weep for humanity...


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> CNN is reporting that Hillary Clinton will not be heading over to her rally.
> 
> I hope they are wrong.


They were right. John Podesta just told everyone to go home. Saying "you are always with her, and she is always with you " except tonight. Has anyone else noticed how Hillary likes to say one thing and do the opposite?


----------



## olivaw

indexxx said:


> I weep for humanity...


Me too. I know Americans get worked up about politics but the idea of locking up a political opponent seems inconsistent with American democratic ideals.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Trump 266 Clinton 218


----------



## sags

The world weeps for the US.......only Trump himself can rise to the occasion and as Van Jones said........he must reassure the people.

Although Trump won, the race was razor close. The US is split almost 50/50 between conservatives and liberals.

If either side goes too far in their ideology, there will be another civil war.


----------



## bass player

Hillary didn't even the class (or guts) to give a concession speech...


----------



## andrewf

It's coming. Better to do like Kerry did and wait until the next day to concede than pull a Gore and retract the concession.


----------



## olivaw

Will somebody please grab Corey Lewandowski by the p...... and squeeze real hard.

I would have preferred to see Hillary address her crowd and thank them for their hard work, but sheesh, the race hasn't been called yet.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Is it customary to deliver a concession speech at this time or wait until tomorrow when the official result is in?


----------



## sags

At the later stages of the campaign, the Democrats decided to spend resources "expanding the tent" and trying to win traditional Republican strongholds. They took victory as a given.

What that tells me is that not only the public pollsters had it all wrong, but so did the Democratic inside pollsters.

Somehow they all completely missed the mood of the people.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Alaska for Trump 269 Clinton 218


----------



## olivaw

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Is it customary to deliver a concession speech at this time or wait until tomorrow when the official result is in?


Typically the loser delivers a concession speech but only after the election is called for the other candidate. Podesta said that they are waiting for the vote count. I would still have preferred to see Hillary make that speech herself but she is not obliged to give a concession speech just yet.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Republican politicians must be feeling very mixed emotions right now. Wonder if the stampede has started, they will be sucking up at the speed of light tomorrow.

I wouldn't want to be around Hillary for the next few days.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Is it customary to deliver a concession speech at this time or wait until tomorrow when the official result is in?


Kerry did not concede until the next day. Usually they concede on the night of, but if the vote is somewhat close, it can come later. As it stands, Hillary will likely win the popular vote with California's votes counted.


----------



## bass player

Hillary the coward backs out...no surprise.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> At the later stages of the campaign, the Democrats decided to spend resources "expanding the tent" and trying to win traditional Republican strongholds. They took victory as a given.
> 
> What that tells me is that not only the public pollsters had it all wrong, but so did the Democratic inside pollsters.
> 
> Somehow they all completely missed the mood of the people.


CNN has been talking about the failure of polling. Not just the public polls - they reported that both Democrat and Republican internal party polls forecast a Clinton victory.


----------



## gibor365

Futures movement are interesting, since Trump victory was guaranteed, S&P raised from 2028 to 2063, oil from 43.07 to 44.25 .... interesting to see what will be markets open and close


----------



## olivaw

Trump wins Wisconsin. He's at 257


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

European markets are open now. They must be buying.

Wonder who Hillary and Barack will pin the blame on.


----------



## james4beach

I think it will be a lot of noise until the end of the week. There might be a lot of hedges that people will be unravelling in the coming days.

I won't take it seriously until I see what the week's close is. Maybe nothing significant will happen in markets.

Europe isn't trading yet. USDCAD is back to normal, barely changed at all (awesome). Oil rallied back. We could drive ourselves crazy looking at all the volatile moves


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Bloomberg says Wisconsin puts Trump over 270.

Trump 279 Clinton 218


----------



## olivaw

Bloomberg called it for Trump.

CNN has not yet called it but reported that Hillary Clinton called Donald Trump to concede.


----------



## james4beach

CBS live: Clinton has called Trump to concede


----------



## indexxx

Oh well- life goes on. I just hope he doesn't totally **** up. I'm a pretty optimistic guy so maybe he will actually turn out OK. I have serious (SERIOUS) doubts and think the Americans just voted a cult of personality reality show into their highest office, but I don't live in the US. Smug old-boy-network nazis are not usually good leaders. I always wish the best for people- I hope he does well.

Good night all- what a wild ride and a very entertaining thread this has been!


----------



## james4beach

I _do_ live in the US and this is unsettling. I'm going to the gym now at midnight to work up a sweat and go sleep


----------



## gibor365

> Europe isn't trading yet. USDCAD is back to normal, barely changed at all (awesome). Oil rallied back. We could drive ourselves crazy looking at all the volatile moves


Russian RTSI is down -0.8%


----------



## olivaw

Congratulations President-Elect Trump.

Do your country proud.


----------



## james4beach

I knew it. I always knew the Americans were crazy & stupid enough to vote this fool into office. Canadians told me it can't happen and I said, no, you don't understand how f'ed up American psychology is.

The crowd is chanting "USA! USA! USA!" behind the VP. The rest of the world laughs, America is proud of themselves.


----------



## olivaw

CNN called it for Trump. He's about to speak.


----------



## james4beach

Yup all major media outlets have called it. Trump has won.

That's it, I'm out of here. Heading to the gym. This is surreal.

They're chanting "USA! USA! USA!" again. I can't take this... what bizarre sh*t is this


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

This is bizarre. At this time how can you not listen to what the new President has to say? He is making a very nice speech, Trump like you have never seen him before. Already talking about uniting and rebuilding the country and welcoming leading Republicans into the fold.

Not like Hillary who phoned her concession in and had her assistant dismiss her most loyal followers without so much as a thank you. I guess if you want her to speak better be prepared to pay at least $250,000

The S&P already up 70 handles


----------



## olivaw

I am extremely disappointed by the outcome but Trump's speech was gracious.

Trump talked about a cooperative relationship with the world and with democrats. That was good.

Not a word about some of his more divisive proposals. Also good.

I'm still scared sh-tless. I hope and pray that my fears are unwarranted.


----------



## andrewf

Trump read the words his team put in the teleprompter. We'll see if he means it.


----------



## olivaw

Is it too early to talk about Van Jones 2020?


----------



## sags

The big donors didn't support Trump, but they did support Senate and Congress races.

Trump may have a problem implementing anything that isn't pure Republican ideology.


----------



## new dog

We live in a new world today after Brexit and Trump, where the people decide not the mainstream media or the elite. The alternative media has been saying for awhile that Trump has got it and the news polls are wrong. Hopefully Trump will be a good rational president but I do hope he sticks to his careful immigration policy and never sign the TPP. Canada could then follow and scrap its immigration policy and stay away from the TPP.

Still however he is very new and we just don't know anything about what to really expect at this point. On the markets if they tank without any special input from Trump then you can't really blame him for this if he hasn't done anything yet.


----------



## gibor365

> He is making a very nice speech, Trump like you have never seen him before. Already talking about uniting and rebuilding the country and welcoming leading Republicans into the fold.


 I agree



> The S&P already up 70 handles


 RTSI moved to positive territory


----------



## james4beach

It truly is a great day for Trump

The man who was once accused of being a Secret Jew by the very same neo Nazis who now support him! Yay Trump! Trump has truly united Neo-Nazis and KKK to his cause... he really is the uniter.

Anti-semites will rejoice that their man is President. KKK will rejoice that their man in President.

Read the direct endorsements of Trump from Neo-Nazis, the KKK, ultra-right militias, and white supremacists. Trump has brought so many groups together!!
http://www.motherjones.com/politics...s-white-nationalists-kkk-militias-racism-hate
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ad6e22-a50a-11e6-8042-f4d111c862d1_story.html

Don't underestimate how much Trump has employed anti-semitism to rise to power. All this talk about global elite and secret bankers is code for JEWS. He used campaign propaganda with a star of david and then called it a sheriff's badge!!


----------



## olivaw

Disturbing articles. I just read an article in Atlantic by Peter Beinart




> I won't pretend the people posses infinite wisdom. I'm a Jew. We know better.


----------



## Argonaut

I am absolutely astounded by the genius of Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton must have been rubbing her hands together in glee as she saw Republican states in the south up for grabs, and sought to win Arizona, Georgia, and the like. Then the Trump campaign did a double-envelopment maneuver, completely outflanking the Democrats and taking the Rust Belt from their grasp. Continuously hammering the message of lost manufacturing jobs led to Big 10 country deciding the election.

And on the message front, he did exactly what he needed to get elected. And now when he wins, he's gracious in victory and brought a message of unity. I can bet you won't hear any more rhetoric. Or at the least it will be very toned down. This is the pacing and leading technique that Scott Adams talks about. America was won over by the Master Persuader.

And I won a lot of money so that's good.


----------



## james4beach

In the middle of his victory speech, a Trump supporter yelled: "*Kill Obama!*"

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-elec...rump-and-hillary-clinton-20161108-gskvfd.html

Those are the kinds of people who support Trump.

There is nothing to admire about this man. I don't care how polite he looks now or how gentle his speech was. F*** his speech. He ran on a platform of _hatred and white supremacy in America_. Someone who courts so many dangerous people can not be applauded or admired. Trump is literally surrounded... as shown by the Kill Obama outburst ... by people who despise black people, Jews, Muslims, Hispanics, and any non-white.

And you know what? Black people are not going to be easily suppressed or beaten up by the white supremacists who Trump has validated. Neither will Hispanic people.


----------



## sags

Yea, that speech was all nice and such..........

Throughout this whole campaign Trump has never answered any serious questions on how he would handle major foreign affair problems.

I guess we are going to find out.


----------



## Argonaut

James, you're not paying attention to the pacing and leading of Donald Trump. He latches onto rhetoric that works well for firing up the base. He had to win over Republicans first. Now that he's President, the rhetoric doesn't matter anymore. As a leader, he has already pivoted and is bringing a message of unity. Notice how there was no negative thing to say about Hillary, all positive? I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled the masterful political move of pardoning her.

And you can't be that naive to think that Blacks and Jews are going to be rounded up and suppressed. He is not Hitler despite what the media tells you. Why would anybody believe anything the media says, ever again? The Democrats got totally outplayed and outmaneuvered. And so did the Republicans! Trump just navigated the entire political minefield and came out unscathed. Master class strategy and persuasion.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> I am absolutely astounded by the genius of Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton must have been rubbing her hands together in glee as she saw Republican states in the south up for grabs, and sought to win Arizona, Georgia, and the like. Then the Trump campaign did a double-envelopment maneuver, completely outflanking the Democrats and taking the Rust Belt from their grasp. Continuously hammering the message of lost manufacturing jobs led to Big 10 country deciding the election.
> 
> And on the message front, he did exactly what he needed to get elected. And now when he wins, he's gracious in victory and brought a message of unity. I can bet you won't hear any more rhetoric. Or at the least it will be very toned down. This is the pacing and leading technique that Scott Adams talks about. America was won over by the Master Persuader.
> 
> And I won a lot of money so that's good.


Genius? Let's not oversell the results here. Trump got very lucky in the last week. The FBI director has done something the FBI director should not do. And he got very lucky with how popular vote broke in a few states.


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> James, you're not paying attention to the pacing and leading of Donald Trump. He latches onto rhetoric that works well for firing up the base. He had to win over Republicans first. Now that he's President, the rhetoric doesn't matter anymore. As a leader, he has already pivoted and is bringing a message of unity. Notice how there was no negative thing to say about Hillary, all positive? I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled the masterful political move of pardoning her.
> 
> And you can't be that naive to think that Blacks and Jews are going to be rounded up and suppressed. He is not Hitler despite what the media tells you. Why would anybody believe anything the media says, ever again? The Democrats got totally outplayed and outmaneuvered. And so did the Republicans! Trump just navigated the entire political minefield and came out unscathed. Master class strategy and persuasion.


You're hoping that he just managed to trick the rubes and he will turn into a NY RINO moderate? Well, we'll see. Maybe he'll indulge the fascist, white supremacist wing who landed him the presidency.

More to the point, you're celebrating that Trump got elected on a given mandate which he will promptly discard and do as he pleases? Who is he governing for then? His own vanity?


----------



## new dog

Andrewf don't forget the mainstream media latched onto any negative thing they could on Trump and ran with it as far as they could. Also the grope tape came out years after it happened to be presented before the election. This was not luck at all but just as Argo saw it.

James on the stuff you said I don't believe any of it and would be very shocked if it happened. Keeping the country safe from nut jobs coming into the country is what he says he is about and Hillary wanted to fill the country with radical crazy people.


----------



## mordko

There is a silver lining in this for many Americans. It proves that any moron can become a president of the most powerful country in the world.


----------



## andrewf

^This is wishful thinking. The media latched onto the crazy **** Trump said. Can you blame them?


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> Yea, that speech was all nice and such..........
> 
> Throughout this whole campaign Trump has never answered any serious questions on how he would handle major foreign affair problems.
> 
> I guess we are going to find out.


Finally after months of mudslinging, accusations etc...it's all over (I think) . Trump needed 270 to win on the electoral college state votes.
At last count this morning he ended up with 290 vs Clinton's 218. The USA election map was a sea of red (Republican wins) except for a few blue states and a handful of swing states. Of a total of 578 electoral college votes, Trump got slightly over 50% of the vote,
Clinton got about 37,5% of the total votes leaving 12% of the votes still uncounted in the swing states.

Even if all the votes in the undecided states (earlier this morning at 3am), were cast for Clinton, she would still trail Trump by a percentage point or two, so Clinton conceded to Trump.

So now that the election hoopla is over...except for the pats on the back in Trump's camp and the "falling on their swords"/crying in Clinton's camp..... What does Trumps surprising victory mean for the USA and the rest of the world including the US relationship with Canada, and scrapping NAFTA, as Trump has already mentioned?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...es-donald-trump-hilalry-clinton-a7404086.html


----------



## kcowan

mrPPincer said:


> What about Canadian socialized health care, what about the Northern European countries, where they may pay about 50% income tax but have the highest happiness ratios, along with a much lower wealth gap, much better education (also without throwing their youth into eternal debt), high longevity, and great health care systems?


The fact remains that the US has ignored substantial data that shows other countries have good systems. They have been conditioned to be incapable of believing such facts.


----------



## dotnet_nerd

The reason the polls were so wrong is because they ignored the "leaners".

These are the ones, when asked who they are voting for, will lean into you and whisper "I'm really voting for Trump".


----------



## SMK

And the American people rejected Hillary once again. Some will blame it on Comey, but given the shocking results, I'm not so sure it would have made much difference. Hillary just never connected with Americans, not even with Trump as her opponent. Sad.


----------



## Nelley

capricorn said:


> in context of FBI letter, Hillary would have quite a bit of support for her contesting the results. and who would blame her.
> without a supposed ground game, all the pundits are scratching their heads as to how did he get the rural vote out to vote. that was suppose to be his weak link.
> 
> But, it is incredible how all national polls got is so wrong.
> fivethirtyeight essentially said that in the end probably the pollsters did not want to be outliers. So, maybe one but the last poll was better indicator.
> Anyway, this election will damage the halo of 538 for sure.


The LA times poll, IDBB were pretty close.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> NYT is giving Trump >95%.
> 
> It looks like Van Jones was correct when he said a few weeks ago - _Trump is like Jason, you think he's dead and he keeps coming back_.
> 
> ETA: Van Jones just came on CNN. Powerful speech.


Not a lot of comments tonight about how incredibly stupid Donald Trump is-after months of saying that identical thing.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> Maybe they will cut her a deal on new granite for her kitchen. That's where she'll be spending more of her time.
> 
> Her speaking fees will probably be discounted for a while. lol!


You think? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHQLQ1Rc_Js


----------



## bass player

Sore loser Hillary is the first presidential loser not to give a concession speech and the media still doesn't have the guts to call her on it. Trump could have called her on it but took the high road.

Trump did something no on thought was possible...entirely on his own with no political background, he took on the Democrats, the media, and most of the Republicans and singlehandedly became president of America.


----------



## lonewolf :)

mrPPincer said:


> Some statisics on that please.. oh wait you have none, big surprise :yawn:
> 
> What about Canadian socialized health care, what about the Northern European countries, where they may pay about 50% income tax but have the highest happiness ratios, along with a much lower wealth gap, much better education (also without throwing their youth into eternal debt), high longevity, and great health care systems?
> 
> But yeah, I guess you're right, some people are idiots.


 Inclusion (seen near market tops) on a scale never seen before in modern history will destroy these programs. Countries of Europe has invited backward radicals in wanting to supply them with benefits. These radicals could not build their own countries with their backward ways they will be a drain on these social programs. Canada should stop trying to make the rest of the world dependents with any free handouts.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> I talk about it a lot too. Unfortunately, Trump is not the man to fix that. His unskilled (and frankly RANDOM) direction will just make America poorer, and more unstable.
> 
> *Best case scenario*: Trump really does nothing, and the wisdom of Congress and other branches keeps things operating as normal until there's a better president.
> 
> *Worst case scenario*: Use your imagination. I doubt it will happen.


As if you know anything about this subject at all-JEEZ.


----------



## mordko

This shows that one can only win US presidency through identity politics. 

Obama won twice by pandering to Blacks and securing >>90% of their vote.

Trump won by pandering to the ******* vote, having won a huge majority among uneducated rural whites.

Hillary failed to secure dominant majorities of either the female or minority vote.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> ^ The media latched onto the crazy **** Trump said. Can you blame them?




absolutely not. Almost all of the responsible big media opposed trump. 

it was fringe *media* like zerohedge, breitbart etc plus the hundreds of thousands of self-published youtube basement amateurs. Any mental patient can be a youtube talking head who says the clintons are murderers & his face, his speech, will carry as much weight as CNN or the washington post. 

it's mob rule. They might as well shut down the universities, there's no need for independent critical thinking any more.

if the US had deliberately wanted to destroy itself - to morph into homegrown lynch mob sharia law complete with tribal rule - it could not have moved better or faster than 8 november/16.

but please don't blame mainstream media for the new Dark Ages. They did everything possible to keep the lights turned on.


.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> Trump did it on his own alright. He's a populist who ran on an anti-trade, protectionist platform. He lost 3/3 debates, he insulted women, he insulted latinos, he tweeted crazy stuff in the middle of the night ... and he won the electoral college vote (probably not the popular vote).
> 
> Populists are gaining power in many countries.
> 
> The only bright spot that I can see is that it will slow the mad dash towards globalization.


The big money globalists did this-no one to blame but themselves-you think Americans are unaware of the screwing over of Sweden, France, Belgium? If these greedy grifters had just taken it slower-not turned up the heat so fast-this probably wouldn't have happened.


----------



## bass player

The sore losers and media are in full denial mode and their expected meltdown is exposing them as the sore losers they always have been.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> This has been a historic thread, that shows how wrong the pundits, main stream media and I were.
> 
> Take all those polls.........and shove them where the sun don't shine.


Some people on this thread have mentioned that the MSM lies constantly, incessantly, obviously.


----------



## TomB19

I give CNN and Fox zero respect. This has always been my position.

I'm more confounded by FiveThirtyEight.com. Nate has a good track record and seems like an objective guy.

It's a new day. I look forward to less free trade and more honest business, if Don keeps his word.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> .. and the crowd at the Trump centre is yelling
> 
> "Lock her up".
> 
> F....K


Look-she should be in prison-you know that.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> Look-she should be in prison-you know that.


So, the first thing Trump will repeal is due process?


----------



## new dog

He won across America and not just with radical white people or whatever nonsense. Hopefully he will put America back on the path to being strong again but it will be very difficult with the debt facing America.

Humble you should live out on the west coast if you want to live in the land of the left. Hillary won the entire west coast as expected and they didn't disappoint you.


----------



## dotnet_nerd

It was hilarious watching John King on CNN, almost in tears, with the Florida count.

Amidst a vast sea of red, clinging on to one small oasis of blue (Broward/Palm Beach counties). "There are still more votes coming in..."


----------



## Nelley

new dog said:


> We live in a new world today after Brexit and Trump, where the people decide not the mainstream media or the elite. The alternative media has been saying for awhile that Trump has got it and the news polls are wrong. Hopefully Trump will be a good rational president but I do hope he sticks to his careful immigration policy and never sign the TPP. Canada could then follow and scrap its immigration policy and stay away from the TPP.
> 
> Still however he is very new and we just don't know anything about what to really expect at this point. On the markets if they tank without any special input from Trump then you can't really blame him for this if he hasn't done anything yet.


Trump has a real shot at big success because he is the first POTUS since maybe Reagan that has openly said the economy is 90% of my focus.


----------



## bass player

First Brexit, now Trump. The people have spoken and the message was clear.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

There was never a time when the main stream media, or main stream pollsters gave Trump a chance. They never had a single good thing to say about him and at no time did they give Hillary less than a 5 point lead in the polls.

Now, were they wrong or were they wrong? The question is, were they honestly stupid or were they biased and slanting the news for political ends? I think the answer is obvious. Most of them were totally for Hillary and made no secret of it. The Atlantic in particular is so "tinfoil hat" that it is actually funny. Commentators were calling CNN the Clinton News Network for months. After this I don't see how anyone can take them seriously.

It was the alternative media and blogosphere that got it right. The media hate that. They also know they are dying because we don't need them anymore. This drives them crazy. That is why they spend so much time trying to convince you that everybody except them is a no good doodyhead. This is so obvious if you take the trouble to look around that I don't know how anybody can't see it.


----------



## Nelley

Argonaut said:


> James, you're not paying attention to the pacing and leading of Donald Trump. He latches onto rhetoric that works well for firing up the base. He had to win over Republicans first. Now that he's President, the rhetoric doesn't matter anymore. As a leader, he has already pivoted and is bringing a message of unity. Notice how there was no negative thing to say about Hillary, all positive? I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled the masterful political move of pardoning her.
> 
> And you can't be that naive to think that Blacks and Jews are going to be rounded up and suppressed. He is not Hitler despite what the media tells you. Why would anybody believe anything the media says, ever again? The Democrats got totally outplayed and outmaneuvered. And so did the Republicans! Trump just navigated the entire political minefield and came out unscathed. Master class strategy and persuasion.


I can understand not liking the guy but how people could look at this guy and say this is a stupid human has always been incomprehensible to me.


----------



## TomB19

Not stupid but certainly ignorant.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

The S&P is right around where it was yesterday, comfortably higher than it was last week. The VIX (a measure of volatility and market nervousness) opened high, but not as high as it was 3 days ago, and is falling rapidly. So predictions of a stock market breakdown turned out to be hooey.


----------



## lonewolf :)

Long faces on CBC last night & cutting down Trump as it looked like he was going to win. Like Rusty says the media was against Trump


----------



## Nelley

andrewf said:


> Genius? Let's not oversell the results here. Trump got very lucky in the last week. The FBI director has done something the FBI director should not do. And he got very lucky with how popular vote broke in a few states.


Trump did something almost impossible-won the POTUS while fighting Democrats, Republicans and the MSM-not such a big deal-Andrewf could have done it.


----------



## Nelley

mordko said:


> There is a silver lining in this for many Americans. It proves that any moron can become a president of the most powerful country in the world.


SURE-you have convinced me you are a lot smarter than Trump-LMFAO!!!


----------



## bass player

The arrogance of progressives blinded them to the fact that they were facing a massive protest vote. The media spun it desperately but too many people have seen through their lies.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

If you think it was bad during the campaign just wait. Get set for a never ending barrage of smears from the left and the media.


----------



## Koogie

The deplorables have spoken.


----------



## Koogie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> If you think it was bad during the campaign just wait. Get set for a never ending barrage of smears from the left and the media.


Apparently on CNN they are already intimating that Russia was behind it.

Probably blame the FBI next.


----------



## Nelley

The stock market crash to end all crashes that the investing giants here were predicting was not that impressive.


----------



## TomB19

Nelley said:


> The stock market crash to end all crashes that the investing giants here were predicting was not that impressive.


I think it's a little early to declare the repercussions over but so far, it's looking stable.


----------



## Argonaut

Maybe the mainstream media will finally figure out and understand that the reason they got it oh-so-wrong was that they were a huge part of the problem themselves. People are fed up with the nanny-state media and all the I-know-better-than-you condescending people on TV, whether they be politicians, celebrities, or ivory tower academics. Listen up "moral-elite". The problem is you. Look in the mirror.


----------



## TomB19

Hey Nelley, does a Trump victory affect you giving me a blumpkin in a YMCA washroom?


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Look-she should be in prison-you know that.



certainly not

4-star general david petraeus delivered classified information. He was charged & pled guilty. Petraeus got off with an ultra-light 2-year probationary term plus a piddling fine of $40-100k.

the lucky general moved straight on to distinguished visiting lectureships at CUNY, SoCal & Harvard. Today he's a partner at investment banker KKR earning maybe $1M a year.

hillary has never been charged with anything. Talking about prison for hillary is the mob mentality ku klux klan braying again.


.


----------



## Nelley

TomB19 said:


> I think it's a little early to declare the repercussions over but so far, it's looking stable.


Trump isn't Bernie Sanders-the whole premise that the USA needs massive Muslim immigration to keep the stock market healthy seems a stretch to me.


----------



## SMK

So far markets are doing better than when Obama won in 2012.


----------



## wraphter

humble_pie said:


> absolutely not. Almost all of the responsible big media opposed trump.
> 
> it was fringe *media* like zerohedge, breitbart etc plus the hundreds of thousands of self-published youtube basement amateurs. Any mental patient can be a youtube talking head who says the clintons are murderers & his face, his speech, will carry as much weight as CNN or the washington post.
> 
> it's mob rule. They might as well shut down the universities, there's no need for independent critical thinking any more.
> 
> if the US had deliberately wanted to destroy itself - to morph into homegrown lynch mob sharia law complete with tribal rule - it could not have moved better or faster than 8 november/16.
> 
> but please don't blame mainstream media for the new Dark Ages. They did everything possible to keep the lights turned on.
> 
> 
> .


Sounds like someone is a sore loser!
As ye sow, so shall ye reap!

I hear Hillary had ordered 500 new designer pantsuits in various colours.
Maybe she can donate them to the Clinton Foundation.


----------



## Nelley

wraphter said:


> Sounds like someone is a sore loser!
> As ye sow, so shall ye reap!
> 
> I hear Hillary had ordered 500 new designer pantsuits in various colours.
> Maybe she can donate them to the Clinton Foundation.


Orange is the new black for the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet.


----------



## Koogie

Thank goodness we here in Canada have a strong, capable, experienced leader to keep us safe from Trump.


Ohh. 

****.


----------



## TomB19

Trump will make Caitlyn Jenner transition back.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> The arrogance of progressives blinded them to the fact that they were facing a massive protest vote. The media spun it desperately but too many people have seen through their lies.



it's not a protest vote. It's homegrown lynch mob sharia law USA-style. It growed like Topsy all by itself, right there in the heartland.

guns. increase capital punishment. arm police military-style & stop pretending they aren't fascist killers. repeal roe v wade. throw elderly, sick & ailing out of hospitals. better yet, don't discarge em, just euthanize em right there in the hospital wards.

duterte of the philippines got it right. turn vigilante squads loose in inner city slums. 

did they take our jobs away to places like el salvador, pakistan, bangladesh? nuke their factories, that'll bring the jobs back to america.

back home in the good old US of A, women who don't pass the ***** test be sentenced to work as slaves in chain gangs. We need bodies to rebuild those highways, repair those crumbling urban sewer systems. new elite rambo americans sure not gonna do it.


.


----------



## TomB19

It looks like a protest vote, to me.

He also has said he will implement term limits for congress, a 5 year wait period for government workers to become lobbyists, reconciliation of trade imbalances, and other things that folks on the bottom will welcome dearly.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> Sore loser Hillary is the first presidential loser not to give a concession speech.


She's also the most ambitious female politician who tried to be president twice, so can't you understand what losing meant to Clinton this time around? There will be no more chances. Must have felt very humiliated and devastated to have lost to someone like Trump, and to an unknown senator 8 years ago.


----------



## bass player

It won't take long for the shock to turn into bitter white hot outrage.....humble is already there.


----------



## humble_pie

wraphter said:


> Sounds like someone is a sore loser!



i'm the last thing from a sore loser. I'm flying out to YVR to meet up with newdogcom. Together we're going to plot how to get to moscow & interview the big shots for our next media whopper.


LOL we can't delete a duplicate post any more?

:frog: sorry guys for the duplicate post but i can't delete it. The trumpster had already delivered merde média to le grand nord.


----------



## humble_pie

...


(tomB showed me how)

(if you can't invite em for breakfast, just dot em out)


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> She's also the most ambitious female politician who tried to be president twice, so can't you understand what losing meant to Clinton this time around? There will be no more chances. Must have felt very humiliated and devastated to have lost to someone like Trump, and to an unknown senator 8 years ago.


Her ambition was for personal gain only. She didn't even have the class to give a concession speech last night. The media who bitterly attacked Trump for not accepting the results of an election BEFORE it even happened are now letting Hillary do exactly that.


----------



## Nelley

Watching this US election was just like watching one guy fight 6 or 7 guys in a street fight and kick the living crap out of the entire MSM/DEM/REPUB gang.


----------



## Pluto

carverman said:


> What's Hillary cackling about? IF she ever got to be President, she would be the first woman in their history to make it that far.
> 
> I just don't see it. Nothing against her personally , but I think America is looking for a strong leader that isn't afraid to mince his words when he criticizes somebody or something.
> 
> Maybe he will bring action to where there is inaction..maybe he will bring justice where justice is needed..maybe ..just maybe...he could be "Captain America"?
> 
> Too much "rot" already imbedded in their gov't..truth, justice and the NEW American way....do your job or "Your're Fired!" :biggrin:


Good call carverman. I think you were the first in this thread to make a clear call. tygrus alluded to it in post 9, but didn't quite say it.


----------



## bass player

What's up next for the Clintons? Will they flee to a country without an extradition treaty?


----------



## Pluto

Pluto said:


> I think Trump will win, partly because no one thinks he will. He'll pick a running mate that blunts a lot of concerns about him. He's going to take the Dems by surprise and steal this from Hilary.


good call Pluto. LOL.


----------



## Pluto

jargey3000 said:


> "Don't be a chump - vote for Trump" The writing's on the wall....._"President Trump!"_ - has a nice ring to it - don't you think?


I think this is a call. Good call jargey3000.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> It won't take long for the shock to turn into bitter white hot outrage.....humble is already there.



lol white hot? diaper bass & the nelliekins are going to be *incandescent*

ps i am the opposite of bitter. Home-grown sharia mobs will get what they deserve.


.


.


----------



## gibor365

Koogie said:


> Thank goodness we here in Canada have a strong, capable, experienced leader to keep us safe from Trump.
> 
> 
> Ohh.
> 
> ****.


We need Canadian version of Trump to stop Liberals destroying country


----------



## Pluto

spirit said:


> http://time.com/money/4253949/h1b-visas-florida-primary/
> 
> The media has portayed Trump as leading a mass of poor uneducated neo Nazi type thugs who beat up protesters at the drop of a hat. I could never understand just how his support could be so strong if that was the type of support he was getting.
> 
> Then I read this article. This is a real eye opener for me and it just makes sense. There are a lot of intelligent well educated people who are backing Trump and this is the reason why. They see huge corporations breaking a public trust with American workers....they are profiting on the backs of their own citizens....and the people do not like it.
> 
> I also think that this discontent is something that Bernie has tapped into.
> 
> Ok, you heard it here first....Trump will choose Bernie as his running mate and they will sweep the election!!!!!


pretty good spirit. Wrong running mate, but still good call.


----------



## TomB19

gibor365 said:


> We need Canadian version of Trump to stop Liberals destroying country


The first Conservative party leadership debate is this evening.

Recommended viewing. If someone in the group suggests reduced immigration and a ban of non-Canadian workers, they might save us.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Argonaut said:


> Maybe the mainstream media will finally figure out and understand that the reason they got it oh-so-wrong was that they were a huge part of the problem themselves. People are fed up with the nanny-state media and all the I-know-better-than-you condescending people on TV, whether they be politicians, celebrities, or ivory tower academics. Listen up "moral-elite". The problem is you. Look in the mirror.


They weren't wrong. They were deliberately trying to brainwash the people into carrying out their agenda which was to elect Hillary Clinton. 95% of the media is owned by 5 giant corporations. Giant corporations of various kinds, have invested millions of dollars in bribing the Clintons, and if Hillary loses that becomes practically a dead loss.


----------



## peterk

Was quite happy with Trudeau's brief speech this morning at some youth event. Talked about the similarities and strengths of Canada and the US. I didn't detect even a hint of liberal snark, and as far as I could see he wasn't "literally shaking" like so many of his supporters describe to be at this very moment. And I don't think he said any "uhhhhh"s.


----------



## Pluto

dogcom said:


> The only thing worse then Donald is Hillary. Donald won't be good but at least it will be the people prevailing instead of Wall Street and the elites. Of course once elected I am sure Donald will be read the riot act by the real people in charge and will probably fall in line.


OK dogcom, good call.


----------



## humble_pie

Nelley said:


> Watching this US election was just like watching one guy fight 6 or 7 guys in a street fight and kick the living crap out of the entire MSM/DEM/REPUB gang.



you were always such a violent little girl

baseball bats
neckties

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> The first Conservative party leadership debate is this evening.
> 
> Recommended viewing. If someone in the group suggests reduced immigration and a ban of non-Canadian workers, they might save us.


Fat chance of them doing something for the benefit of Canada. Unless they saw what happened in the American election and learned a lesson.


----------



## gibor365

Don't know if Trump is good for Canada, but he's good for US


----------



## TomB19

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Fat chance of them doing something for the benefit of Canada. Unless they saw what happened in the American election and learned a lesson.


They won't if we just sit back and *****. If we take an active interest, join the party, and vote the best person in, we could improve our future. Even if that person never becomes PM, a better opposition makes for a better government.

... but we've seen that immigration and trade imbalance are more important than either of the established American parties gave credit. Reps and Dems are owned by corporate interests. One guy cracked that nut with some straight talking and a lot of flaws. Perhaps, this evening, someone will take a queue from that.

For 15 bucks, you can go long on Canada.


----------



## Koogie

NYT: Why Trump Won: Working-Class Whites

~ umm.. shouldn't that be "Disadvantaged Caucasian-Americans" ?
~ i guess the working class and poor only matter when they vote Democrat.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

TomB19 said:


> They won't if we just sit back and *****. If we take an active interest, join the party, and vote the best person in, we could improve our future. Even if that person never becomes PM, a better opposition makes for a better government.
> 
> ... but we've seen that immigration and trade imbalance are more important than either of the established American parties gave credit. Reps and Dems are owned by corporate interests. One guy cracked that nut with some straight talking and a lot of flaws. Perhaps, this evening, someone will take a queue from that.
> 
> For 15 bucks, you can go long on Canada.


Touche


----------



## humble_pie

.

lol did they appoint you chief forum administrator & dictator? 

gosh, i missed this news

guess i'll never get a gold star




Pluto said:


> OK dogcom, good call.





Pluto said:


> pretty good spirit. Wrong running mate, but still good call.





Pluto said:


> I think this is a call. Good call jargey3000.





Pluto said:


> good call Pluto. LOL.





Pluto said:


> Good call carverman.



.


----------



## Pluto

^

That's funny. yes, I am ungraciously blowing my own trump-et. 
You get a gold star for artistic style, literary hyperbole, top options strategies, and lie detector. 

The CNN hammering away at the "odds", the polls showing her lead, and the shoo in mentality made Hillary's support complacent. Plus she said some empty things, like fighting for "women's rights". Every woman in America know women already have rights. Now they have to get busy using their rights instead of pretending they don't have them. 

I look forward to the first woman President, and I know the gals can do better than her.


----------



## sags

.......And a "polls don't matter" movement was born.

Interesting that Garth Turner held a poll on his Greater Fool website.

I believe the polling was 3,000 people.

The response was 65% for Clinton and 35% for Trump.

Not just the polls got it wrong..........but so did most Canadians.

http://www.greaterfool.ca/2016/11/07/hallelujah/


----------



## SMK

Pluto said:


> I look forward to the first woman President, and I know the gals can do better than her.


Clinton chose to run both times when Americans were desperate for change. How this unpopular candidate figure she represented change?


----------



## capricorn

sags said:


> .......
> 
> Not just the polls got it wrong..........but so did most Canadians.
> 
> http://www.greaterfool.ca/2016/11/07/hallelujah/


this is not a surprise considering Canada right now is left leaning sea to sea.


----------



## TomB19

I certainly got it wrong.

I put my trust in Nate silver. He seems to have an objective approach.

It was a wild election, for sure.


----------



## TomB19

I wish I had gone long on adult diapers. I could profit from 47.7% of Americans shitting themselves, right now.


----------



## sags

Forget all the "noise" about walls and taxes......what would Trump do if Putin pushes further into Ukraine ?

What will he do if China sabre rattles in the South China Sea ? What if Iran gets closer to a nuclear weapon ?

That is what concerns me the most.

Some people say that Trump will back off from what he has said.......that he was just blowing smoke.

They better hope so, because if the US "blows an Iranian boat out of the water"..........it is game on.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> Forget all the "noise" about walls and taxes......what would Trump do if Putin pushes further into Ukraine ?
> 
> What will he do if China sabre rattles in the South China Sea ? What if Iran gets closer to a nuclear weapon ?
> 
> That is what concerns me the most.



this is the thing. All of the above will undoubtedly happen. Trump & Co think that wikileaks will protect them.

.


----------



## bass player

Hillary showed her true character last night when she refused to talk all of her supporters that were waiting to hear from her. Hillary decided that they had outlived their usefulness and she couldn't be bothered with them any more.


----------



## sags

Clinton doesn't matter anymore. The question now is what Trump "will do"......not what Clinton "has done."


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Clinton doesn't matter anymore. The question now is what Trump "will do"......not what Clinton "has done."


The Clinton Foundation is still under FBI investigation, so, it just might matter what Clinton has done.


----------



## bass player

The Clintons have been stripped of their power, it may get interesting if some people decide to speak up...


----------



## gibor365

> Forget all the "noise" about walls and taxes......what would Trump do if Putin pushes further into Ukraine ?


Nothing! because Putin won't  ... Crimea was always Russian territory


----------



## capricorn

This might be a trend where large population centers and/or economic engines are moving to the right.
China, India, UK, USA, Russia.. and maybe soon Germany.
welcome to the new world.


----------



## mrPPincer

bass player said:


> Hillary showed her true character last night when she refused to talk all of her supporters that were waiting to hear from her. Hillary decided that they had outlived their usefulness and she couldn't be bothered with them any more.


^ It wasn't over yet then at 3 AM-ish when they asked everyone to go home and get some sleep.
There were a lot of close calls and votes were still being counted in those tipping states.
She did phone Trump last night, and made her concession speech in the morning.

Congrats to all the Trump supporters, I hope it all goes as well as you hope!

The market didn't crash as I was expecting (was getting ready to start doing some buying) so, so far so good, we'll see how it goes.


----------



## sags

Hillary Clinton's concession speech was both eloquent and passionate.

She pledged her support to President Trump and urged all Americans to do the same.

I think she can be forgiven if she wanted to take some time to prepare her speech and gather herself.

The results were in and there was no urgent need for her to speak at 3 a.m. when few would be watching.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> The Clintons have been stripped of their power, it may get interesting if some people decide to speak up...


And Trump is being investigated...........and so it goes.


----------



## sags

gibor365 said:


> Nothing! because Putin won't  ... Crimea was always Russian territory


So were a lot of other countries for a long time.


----------



## TomB19

I'm trying to find an exchange that will sell me a 90 day put on Obamacare.


----------



## olivaw

The best part about supporting the losing candidate is that you get to blame everything on the winning candidate. 

_Martini too dry. Thank's Trump. _


----------



## Nelley

Pluto said:


> ^
> 
> That's funny. yes, I am ungraciously blowing my own trump-et.
> You get a gold star for artistic style, literary hyperbole, top options strategies, and lie detector.
> 
> The CNN hammering away at the "odds", the polls showing her lead, and the shoo in mentality made Hillary's support complacent. Plus she said some empty things, like fighting for "women's rights". Every woman in America know women already have rights. Now they have to get busy using their rights instead of pretending they don't have them.
> 
> I look forward to the first woman President, and I know the gals can do better than her.


Maybe 30 million women in the USA right now more qualified to be POTUS than Crooked Hillary-probably a low number.


----------



## Nelley

capricorn said:


> this is not a surprise considering Canada right now is left leaning sea to sea.


CBC claims some people in Toronto were in tears-LMFAO


----------



## olivaw

NY Times says that Rudy Giuliani and Newt Gingrich could get top cabinet positions.


----------



## Nelley

bass player said:


> The Clinton Foundation is still under FBI investigation, so, it just might matter what Clinton has done.


Supposedly Rudy Giuliani is going to be in charge of Justice-not good news for the Clinton Crime Family.


----------



## Nelley

Wynnebag was "shocked" at the result-was a frigging joke she is.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Nelley said:


> Supposedly Rudy Giuliani is going to be in charge of Justice-not good news for the Clinton Crime Family.


Trump for the White House - Hillary for the Big House?


----------



## olivaw

While *petty individuals* dream of revenge on the Clintons, world leaders are making plans for the coming era of uncertainty 

*NY Times: Uncertainty Over Donald Trump’s Foreign Policy Risks Global Instability*



> Whether or not Donald J. Trump follows through on his campaign pledges to diminish or possibly abandon American commitments to security alliances such as NATO, his election victory forces nations around the world to begin preparing for the day they can no longer count on the American-backed order.
> 
> This creates a danger that derives less from Mr. Trump’s words, which are often inconsistent or difficult to parse, than from the inability to predict his actions or how other states might respond to them.
> 
> That uncertainty puts pressure on allies and adversaries alike to position themselves, before Mr. Trump even takes office, for a world that could be on the verge of losing one of its longest-standing pillars of stability.
> 
> “You’re going to see a lot of fear among America’s allies, and in some cases they may try to do something about it,” said James Goldgeier, a political scientist and the dean of American University’s School of International Service.


----------



## mordko

gibor365 said:


> Nothing! because Putin won't  ... Crimea was always Russian territory


You need to define "always". Apparently it's 200 years out of a few thousand (and not the most recent 200 years at that).


----------



## TomB19

It seems to me, allies or former allies _should_ do something about the Trump victory. Specifically, they should work toward taking care of their own security.

The US will probably have plenty of arms sales in response to the Trump victory.


----------



## mordko

Talking of arms, I do hope that nobody will mention that Trump has small hands ever again. Especially, given the button that his hands will be able to access within a few months.


----------



## olivaw

It takes years or decades to build a military force - esp. one that can stand up to Putin's Russia. Appeasement will be the order of the day.


----------



## Nelley

What a great day to watch CNN and The Young Turks-this clip is epic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XKitm8RNjM


----------



## olivaw

^The Young Turks. LOL, is the sock puppet desperate for subject matter?


----------



## sags

Israel is happy. They say they expect Trump to move the US embassy to the new capital city of Jerusalem.

They also say it is the end of a separate Palestinian state.

Yea...........that sounds all nice and peaceful.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Forget all the "noise" about walls and taxes......what would Trump do if Putin pushes further into Ukraine ?
> 
> What will he do if China sabre rattles in the South China Sea ? What if Iran gets closer to a nuclear weapon ?
> 
> That is what concerns me the most.
> 
> Some people say that Trump will back off from what he has said.......that he was just blowing smoke.
> 
> They better hope so, because if the US "blows an Iranian boat out of the water"..........it is game on.


From ample incidents during the campaign, we can see that when insulted he tends to strike back impulsively and twice as hard.

Think of all the derogatory nicknames he gave to other candidates--crooked Hillary,little Marco,low-energy Jeb etc. He is an incredibly 

aggressive and hostile individual.

It is not a confrontation with Iran that is the problem,rather one with Russia.

The mutual admiration society between Trump and the Russian despot will be short-lived. Trump will be under great pressure from

Republican hawks to prove himself and stand up to the Russians . Not many in his own camp support a love-in with the Russians and they 

will pressure him to retaliate.


----------



## Argonaut

You guys are still not "getting it". It's starting to get frustrating. This is a man who wrote The Art of the Deal. He's a dealmaker. He takes complex situations and gets things done. What is so hard to understand?


----------



## olivaw

An international treaty is slightly more complex than a real estate deal.


----------



## Argonaut

Is there anything more complex than single-handedly outmaneuvering the entire two-party system and getting elected as President?


----------



## olivaw

Ask the people who called Obama an amateur or Bush an idiot. Winning a presidential election does not entitle an individual to unquestioning agreement.


----------



## TomB19

olivaw said:


> An international treaty is slightly more complex than a real estate deal.


Really? How about a multi-title deal?


----------



## wraphter

Argonaut said:


> You guys are still not "getting it". It's starting to get frustrating. This is a man who wrote The Art of the Deal. He's a dealmaker. He takes complex situations and gets things done. What is so hard to understand?


Tony Schwartz wrote "Art of the Deal"


----------



## olivaw

TomB19 said:


> Really? How about a multi-title deal?


OK - negotiating an international agreement is slightly more complex than a multi-title real estate deal.


----------



## sags

Putin and Trump both have similar sounding plans.

Trump wants to make America great again and Putin wants to make Russia great again.

Trump's plan involves new trade deals. Putin's plan involves new territory.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Conquering territory is so 15th century. Conquest and colonization ceased to pay as far back as the early 19th century. The smarter diplomats and politicians recognized this by the late 19th century.That is why the biggest colonial powers divested themselves of colonies in the early 20th century.

In the age of international trade and intercontinental ballistic missiles colonies and conquests drag a country down.


----------



## ian

We are hoping for a very early approval of the Keystone pipeline. It will be good for Canada.


----------



## sags

Trump may approve Keystone if the price is right. He wants 25% of the profits.

_“I want 25 per cent of the deal for the United States. They’re going to make a fortune,” he declared in Muscatine, Iowa on Sunday. On Saturday, he said he would ask for “25 per cent of the profits forever.”_

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...-chunk-of-keystone-xl-profits-for-the-us.html


----------



## sags

Trump started receiving full classified briefings today.

He will earn $400,000 a year as President and have to pay for his own staff, food and expenses............to deal with all those problems.

He could earn that flipping a house in Vancouver.

I hope he likes the job, because he won't be doing it for the pay.


----------



## Argonaut

This is the most beautiful article I've ever read.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-09/american-uprising

Queue the scorn for Zero Hedge, proving the point of the article.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Here is another take on the same phenomenon, written before the election.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/


----------



## sags

Trump advocates say that he will abandon his campaign promises and become more moderate.

Trump supporters say they expect him to keep his promises exactly as he laid them out.

There seems to be a disconnect in expectations between Trump advocates and the people who voted for him.


----------



## sags

Argonaut said:


> This is the most beautiful article I've ever read.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-09/american-uprising
> 
> Queue the scorn for Zero Hedge, proving the point of the article.


Great article that lists the reasons Americans are feeling disenfranchised and unhappy with the status quo.

The article is missing the part that explains how Trump is going to accomplish the changes he promised though.

The last line in the article........_Midnight has passed. A new day has come. And everything is about to change._

How is Trump going to change everything ?


----------



## TomB19

sags said:


> How is Trump going to change everything ?


I expect Trump will change as much as Obama. Not a lot. ... but I hope he will change more and for the better.

We will see. It's all to come. I'm cautiously optimistic for my pals in the US.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> How is Trump going to change everything ?


For a start, Sarah Palin is baaaaaack


----------



## sags

Judging from the short listed nominees for a Trump cabinet........it looks like a Republican old folks alumni meeting.


----------



## olivaw

Best Tweet:



Brian Pedaci (@bpedaci) said:


> BRITAIN: Brexit is the stupidest, most self destructive act a country could undertake.
> 
> USA: Hold my beer.


----------



## andrewf

SMK said:


> And the American people rejected Hillary once again. Some will blame it on Comey, but given the shocking results, I'm not so sure it would have made much difference. Hillary just never connected with Americans, not even with Trump as her opponent. Sad.


Hillary won the popular vote. So, there goes this argument.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Not a lot of comments tonight about how incredibly stupid Donald Trump is-after months of saying that identical thing.


He still is incredibly stupid. He can't speak in full sentences unless reading from a teleprompter. Worse that Bush the Lesser.


----------



## andrewf

TomB19 said:


> I give CNN and Fox zero respect. This has always been my position.
> 
> I'm more confounded by FiveThirtyEight.com. Nate has a good track record and seems like an objective guy.
> 
> It's a new day. I look forward to less free trade and more honest business, if Don keeps his word.


I don't think they got it that wrong. It's just that the electoral college can give unstable results. Hillary wins the popular vote by a smaller than expected margin, but gets creamed in the electoral college. If Hillary got 1% more of the popular vote we'd probably have president Clinton rather than Trump.


----------



## andrewf

dotnet_nerd said:


> It was hilarious watching John King on CNN, almost in tears, with the Florida count.
> 
> Amidst a vast sea of red, clinging on to one small oasis of blue (Broward/Palm Beach counties). "There are still more votes coming in..."


The whole country looks like that. Cities are overwhelming democrat, rural areas vote republican.

For instance, look at this map of the 2015 Canadian election result. Is it obvious that team red creamed team blue? And that team orange was left as a rump party?


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> First Brexit, now Trump. The people have spoken and the message was clear.


Hillary won the popular vote... what did the people say again?


----------



## andrewf

TomB19 said:


> It looks like a protest vote, to me.
> 
> He also has said he will implement term limits for congress, a 5 year wait period for government workers to become lobbyists, reconciliation of trade imbalances, and other things that folks on the bottom will welcome dearly.


Is congress going to vote themselves out of a job? This sounds like Obama's plan to close Gitmo.,


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> Supposedly Rudy Giuliani is going to be in charge of Justice-not good news for the Clinton Crime Family.


It's a dangerous game to play. Obama let Bush and Cheney skate on war crimes charges. Trump goes after Clinton in a vindictive way, what's to stop the next Democratic president making it their mission to legally destroy Trump & his kids. This is not a smart game for Trump to play.

Of course, it was a useful device to rile up the rubes.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

This will be the first time an American billionaire moves into public housing vacated by a black family.


----------



## andrewf

TomB19 said:


> It seems to me, allies or former allies _should_ do something about the Trump victory. Specifically, they should work toward taking care of their own security.
> 
> The US will probably have plenty of arms sales in response to the Trump victory.


And push strategically valuable allies (and their resources) into the arms of China and Russia. The US has just about lost the Philippines to China...


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> You need to define "always". Apparently it's 200 years out of a few thousand (and not the most recent 200 years at that).


Is the sense Orwell used when he wrote eurasia always having been at war with oceania.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

It's not up to Trump to investigate. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is already on it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-server/?postshare=9311478727330848&tid=ss_tw


----------



## andrewf

Argonaut said:


> You guys are still not "getting it". It's starting to get frustrating. This is a man who wrote The Art of the Deal. He's a dealmaker. He takes complex situations and gets things done. What is so hard to understand?


He "wrote" it.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> It's not up to Trump to investigate. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is already on it.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-server/?postshare=9311478727330848&tid=ss_tw


Seems useless to me, given that Hillary is a spent force. It's like Benghazi... the whole point was to damage her as a candidate. She aint running for president again, so I can't see the Congress spending that much energy on her going forward.


----------



## bass player

Rusty O'Toole said:


> This will be the first time an American billionaire moves into public housing vacated by a black family.


That's hilarious. I'm stealing it and changing "American" to "white"


----------



## sags

Huge protests in major cities across the US tonight.

Too little.....too late for Democratic supporters, but Trump, Pence, Clinton, Sanders, Biden, Warren are all going to have to come out together and implore voters to remain calm and support the President and new administration.

Given Trump's promised "first day" agenda of changes, it isn't going to be easy to gain support from the people.

He has said that on the first day in office.........

He will repeal all of Obama's executive orders, including the "no gun" zones around schools.

He will inform Canada and Mexico the Free Trade Deal is no longer in effect.

He will ask the Senate to draft a bill repealing Obamacare.

He will direct the US military to present a plan within 30 days to eliminate ISIS.

He will issue an order to start building a wall along the southern border with Mexico.

He will issue an order to deport 10 million illegal aliens.

With that agenda, it is hard to see how there can be any coming together of both sides.

As David Gergen noted on CNN....discussing the future of the Democratic Party and other matters, pales in comparison to discussing and addressing the civil unrest that is evident in a steeply divided US. 

As noted by David Axelrod.....Trump should tone down his list of early priorities and think through the repercussions very carefully.

Both political parties are tone deaf to the concerns of the other party, and elections have become a time of gloating and implementing that parties "agenda"........even if it is only for a little while before the other side gets a chance to overturn everything.

Supreme Court nominations were often discussed by both parties as a reason they must win the election.

They just happen to also be something that can't be overturned, which made them considered so crucial.

The US teeters on the brink of a civil war.


----------



## olivaw

I'm watching the protests on TV now. TBH I hope they are an expression of frustration that fizzle out. I also hope that they give Trump pause about his promises. There is no way that he is going to implement some of his more radical promises without significant civil unrest.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> I'm watching the protests on TV now. TBH I hope they are an expression of frustration that fizzle out. I also hope that they give Trump pause about his promises. There is no way that he is going to implement some of his more radical promises without significant civil unrest.


It seems like you aren't going to ever tire of making arrogant and ignorant predictions-"there is no way" BLAH BLAH BLAH


----------



## olivaw

Nelley said:


> It seems like you aren't going to ever tire of making arrogant and ignorant predictions-"there is no way" BLAH BLAH BLAH


You annoyance with my comments increases the pleasure I derive from making them. Back to the sock drawer with you little puppet.


----------



## sags

A while ago there was an issue about something in the Canadian Parliament. 

Trudeau announced something and PC leader Rona Ambrose made a suggestion to make it a better idea.

Trudeau adopted Ambrose's suggestion and thanked her for bringing it to his attention.

That is a world different than what happens in the US where both sides are so firmly entrenched against each other, they won't even consider any ideas that emanate from the other side.

A Democrat could propose a bill that ensured Republicans would control the Presidency forever, and Republicans would still vote against it because it came from a Democrat.........and vice versa.

I think the polarization and politicalization of news media has contributed greatly to the phenomena.

Fox News viewers don't watch CNN and CNN viewers don't watch Fox News.

And too many people derive their news from alternative and often fake internet news sources.


----------



## andrewf

Yeah, I don't know why Nelley thinks he's going to dissuade us from commenting by throwing cheap insults. He's going to be gone in a few days anyway... (single issue poster, 100% guaranteed to disappear once issue said issue has come to a resolution).


----------



## bass player

I wonder how low Bill's "speaking fees" will fall??


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> Seems useless to me, given that Hillary is a spent force. It's like Benghazi... the whole point was to damage her as a candidate. She aint running for president again, so I can't see the Congress spending that much energy on her going forward.


There are people serving jail time right now for for doing less than she did. Military and government security is no laughing matter, it is quite possible people died because of information she leaked. It's the old 'the republicans are picking on me' argument but there is a lot more at stake than that.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> That's hilarious. I'm stealing it and changing "American" to "white"


Wait till he puts up the giant gold TRUMP sign.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> There are people serving jail time right now for for doing less than she did. Military and government security is no laughing matter, it is quite possible people died because of information she leaked. It's the old 'the republicans are picking on me' argument but there is a lot more at stake than that.


So, is Trump going to be going after Bush/Cheney for war crimes?

And what happens in the event Trump faces fraud charges over Trump U? He's accused of defrauding tens of thousands of middle-class people.


----------



## new dog

I would be happy if they all go down.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> So, is Trump going to be going after Bush/Cheney for war crimes?
> 
> And what happens in the event Trump faces fraud charges over Trump U? He's accused of defrauding tens of thousands of middle-class people.


Good question. It would be funny seeing him testify in court, even funnier to see him governing from a jail cell.


----------



## james4beach

The media reports that there were major protests across the USA. Bloomberg is carrying an article saying


> In Oregon, dozens of people blocked traffic in downtown Portland, burned American flags and forced a delay for trains on two light-rail lines. Earlier, the protest in downtown drew several Trump supporters, who taunted the demonstrators with signs. A lone Trump supporter was chased across Pioneer Courthouse Square and hit in the back with a skateboard before others intervened.


The protests were very minor. I live downtown. I saw helicopters in the sky, but did not see or hear * any * protesters either on my way to or from work, nor at lunch when I walked around downtown.

No big protests. The media reports are overblown


----------



## olivaw

^you never know what to believe. CNN and MSNBC reported 5,000 peaceful protestors in New York.


----------



## humble_pie

^^

what's not to believe? 5000 peaceful protesters in NYC are believable.

all of the mild protest details in jas4's post are believable as well.

i imagine bloomberg was referring to the aggregate of protests across the nation as *major.*

in actual fact, street protests in so many US cities on the morrow of an ugly election may be a US first. Of course the media are going to report. Of course doing their job is not *overblown.*

.


----------



## mordko

OK, but 5000 protesters in New York is not exactly "uge".


----------



## SMK

The angry voices would have been louder and more violent with a Clinton victory, in my opinion.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> The angry voices would have been louder and more violent with a Clinton victory, in my opinion.


There wasn't a single violent protest after Obama was elected...it's only the left that is reduced to such tactics when they don't get their way.


----------



## SMK

Race and gender aside, which I don't believe were key factors in either's victory or defeat, there were more substantial negatives with Clinton than Obama, so not a fair comparison.


----------



## sags

Listening to conservative radio stations (Patriot channel), they were talking about the Republican Party taking over the agenda from Trump.

It will be interesting to watch what Trump does. Will he make peace with Putin ? Will he "drain the swamp" including Wall Street and the Koch Brothers ? Will Trump cancel free trade deals ?........all those are anti-Republican choices and more along the lines of Bernie Sanders.

Republicans now have a President, who really isn't a Republican by his nature or past political history.

This election may not have been about a Democrat and Republican choice. 

It may have really been between two Democrats with different views.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> Race and gender aside, which I don't believe were key factors in either's victory or defeat, there were more substantial negatives with Clinton than Obama, so not a fair comparison.


It only took you 2 days to forget what really happened and adapt the progressive talking points.

Gender was one of Hillary's main talking points..."vote for me because I'm a woman", "break the glass ceiling", etc. And, immediately after the election (and still going on) people said that it was racist white people who elected Trump, and sexist people who wouldn't vote for a woman.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> Gender was one of Hillary's main talking points..."vote for me because I'm a woman", "break the glass ceiling", etc. And, immediately after the election (and still going on) people said that it was racist white people who elected Trump, and sexist people who wouldn't vote for a woman.


Not arguing Clinton's talking points, but her political liabilities. Now that we have the election numbers, we know why Clinton lost the election, except those that prefer to exclusively talk about race and gender.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Violent protests by Clinton supporters continue. So now we know who the real deplorables are.

As Bloomberg put it, the "raw divisions exposed by the presidential race were on full display across America on Wednesday, as protesters flooded city streets to condemn Donald Trump's election in demonstrations that police said were mostly peaceful", although video evidence showed otherwise.

From New England to heartland cities like Kansas City and along the West Coast, many thousands of demonstrators carried flags and anti-Trump signs, disrupting traffic and declaring that they refused to accept Trump's triumph.
In Chicago, where thousands had recently poured into the streets to celebrate the Chicago Cubs' first World Series victory in over a century, several thousand people marched through the Loop. They gathered outside Trump Tower, chanting "Not my president!"
In Manhattan, a protest drew about 1,000 people. Outside Trump Tower on Fifth Avenue in midtown, police installed barricades to keep the demonstrators at bay.
In Washington DC., marchers protesting Trump's election chanted and carried signs in front of the Trump International Hotel. Media outlets broadcast video Wednesday night showing a peaceful crowd in front of the new downtown hotel. Many chanted "No racist USA, no Trump, no KKK."
In Philadelphia, protesters gathered near City Hall despite chilly, wet weather. Participants — who included both supporters of Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton and independent Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, who lost to Clinton in the primary — expressed anger at both Republicans and Democrats over the election's outcome.
In Boston, thousands of anti-Trump protesters streamed through downtown, chanting "Trump's a racist" and carrying signs that said "Impeach Trump" and "Abolish Electoral College." Clinton appears to be on pace to win the popular vote, despite losing the electoral count that decides the presidential race.
In Minnesota, a protest that began at the State Capitol Tuesday night with about 100 people swelled at is moved into downtown St. Paul, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported. Protesters blocked downtown streets and traveled west on University Avenue where they shouted expletives about Trump in English and Spanish.
In Des Moines, Iowa, hundreds of students walked out of area high schools at 10:30 a.m. to protest Trump's victory, the Des Moines Register reported. The protests, which were coordinated on social media, lasted 15 to 45 minutes.
In Dallas activists gathered by the dozens outside the city's sports arena, the American Airlines Center.
In Oregon, dozens of people blocked traffic in downtown Portland, burned American flags and forced a delay for trains on two light-rail lines. Earlier, the protest in downtown drew several Trump supporters, who taunted the demonstrators with signs. A lone Trump supporter was chased across Pioneer Courthouse Square and hit in the back with a skateboard before others intervened.
In Oakland, CA, several thousand chanting, sign-waving people gathered in Frank Ogawa Plaza, once again smashing windows and harming public and private property like a night before.
In San Francisco, hundreds are marching along Market Avenue, one of the city's main avenues, to join a vigil in the Castro District, a predominantly gay neighborhood.
In Los Angeles, protesters on the steps of City Hall burned a giant papier mache Trump head in protest, later, in the streets they whacked a Trump piñata.
In Seattle, many held anti-Trump and Black Lives Matter signs and chanted slogans, including "Misogyny has to go," and "The people united, will never be defeated." Five people were shot and injured in an area near the protest, but police said the shootings and the demonstration were unrelated.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ictory-sets-off-protests-in-california-oregon

https://youtu.be/sNvS2zehFMg

https://youtu.be/4oxV0OY87j0

https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/796534396304183297/pu/img/Og0xy0sCgGIL6YfC.jpg


----------



## bass player

The left almost always riot when they don't get their way....is anyone really surprised?


----------



## SMK

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Violent protests by Clinton supporters continue. So now we know who the real deplorables are.


What about the threats of a "revolution" had Clinton won, were they just empty threats you think?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

SMK said:


> What about the threats of a "revolution" had Clinton won, were they just empty threats you think?


They have been burying Trump supporters in **** for 40 years and not one protest. A black Democrat got elected President and not one protest by 'racists'. What threats are you referring to? Ones made up by Clinton supporters?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Clintonite refugees streaming across Canadian border (humorous) courtesy The Burning Platform



Hat tip Robmu1

The flood of Trump-fearing American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has intensified in the past week. The Republican presidential campaign is prompting an exodus among left-leaning Americans who fear they’ll soon be required to hunt, pray, pay taxes, and live according to the Constitution.

Canadian border residents say it’s not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, liberal arts majors, global-warming activists, and “green” energy proponents crossing their fields at night.

“I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn,” said southern Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. “He was cold, exhausted and hungry, and begged me for a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn’t have any, he left before I even got a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?”

In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences, but the liberals scaled them. He then installed loudspeakers that blared Rush Limbaugh across the fields, but they just stuck their fingers in their ears and kept coming. Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals just south of the border, pack them into electric cars, and drive them across the border, where they are simply left to fend for themselves after the battery dies.

“A lot of these people are not prepared for our rugged conditions,” an Alberta border patrolman said. “I found one carload without a single bottle of Perrier water, or any gemelli with shrimp and arugula. All they had was a nice little Napa Valley cabernet and some kale chips. When liberals are caught, they’re sent back across the border, often wailing that they fear persecution from Trump high-hairers.

Rumors are circulating about plans being made to build re-education camps where liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer, study the Constitution, and find jobs that actually contribute to the economy.

In recent days, liberals have turned to ingenious ways of crossing the border. Some have been disguised as senior citizens taking a bus trip to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans in blue-hair wig disguises, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior citizens about Perry Como and Rosemary Clooney to prove that they were alive in the ’50s.

“If they can’t identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, we become very suspicious about their age,” an official said.

Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating an organic-broccoli shortage, are buying up all the Barbara Streisand CD’s, and are overloading the internet while downloading jazzercise apps to their cell phones.

“I really feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can’t support them,” an Ottawa resident said. “After all, how many art-history majors does one country need?


----------



## sags

Trump is elected and is the President. People need to get used to it and keep themselves busy for the next election, if they care that much.

I suspect there are people in the protest crowd who didn't even bother to vote, and voter complacency is why Clinton lost.

In other news there is big trouble brewing......and it is serious.

Some Russian cabinet minister said the Trump organization has been in constant contact with Russia throughout the election campaign.

In view of the hacking and Wikileaks information dump and Trump denials of any discussions or contact with the Russian, it may spark an FBI investigation into ties between the Trump camp and Russia.

The disclosure adds fuel to the accusations of election interference by the Democrats.

That Russian cabinet minister is probably heading for a trip to the Gulags...........


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

bass player said:


> It only took you 2 days to forget what really happened and adapt the progressive talking points.
> 
> Gender was one of Hillary's main talking points..."vote for me because I'm a woman", "break the glass ceiling", etc. And, immediately after the election (and still going on) people said that it was racist white people who elected Trump, and sexist people who wouldn't vote for a woman.


And my favorite "vote with your vagina". I am trying to picture her holding the pencil and marking her ballot.


----------



## SMK

Rusty O'Toole said:


> They have been burying Trump supporters in **** for 40 years and not one protest. A black Democrat got elected President and not one protest by 'racists'. What threats are you referring to? Ones made up by Clinton supporters?


Has there ever been an election and candidate like Trump before? Is it so hard to believe then, that there would have been anti-Clinton protests had she won?


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> I suspect there are people in the protest crowd who didn't even bother to vote, and voter complacency is why Clinton lost.


Sure...the fact that millions of people were sick of the Clinton's corruption had nothing to do with the result.



sags said:


> In other news there is big trouble brewing though.......and it is serious.
> 
> Some Russian cabinet minister said the Trump organization has been in constant contact with Russia throughout the election campaign.
> 
> In view of the hacking and Wikileaks the information may spark an FBI investigation into ties between the Trump camp and Russia.


Fact, or just more Democrat lies?

Anyway, now that the Clintons have lost most of their power, they will find it very difficult to interfere with the ongoing investigation into the Clinton Foundation.


----------



## sags

The contact with Russia is being reported all over the world.

It was Russia's deputy foreign minister who made the statements.

The revelation is causing a great deal of concern in NATO countries.

Trump was receiving classified information briefings. It is a serious development.

No doubt the FBI will be forced to investigate what information was passed to the Russians.

_"Obviously, we know most of the people from his entourage,” *Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told the state-run Interfax news agency *in an interview reported on by The Washington Post. “Those people have always been in the limelight in the United States and *have occupied high-ranking positions*. I cannot say that all of them but quite a few have been staying in touch with Russian representatives.”_


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

SMK said:


> Has there ever been an election and candidate like Trump before? Is it so hard to believe then, that there would have been anti-Clinton protests had she won?


How about Obama? Nobody thought white America would vote for a black candidate for President. When he won he said "elections have consequences. I won. You lost. Get over it". There were no riots, no protests. Trump has been gracious to Clinton and his Democrat opponents, and called for unity and progress, and look what happened.

The Democrats are the "deplorable" ones. 

Maybe Trump should lock them up in FEMA camps where they can be forced to drink domestic beer, study the Constitution and learn how to do jobs that contribute to the economy (Sarkylert)


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

SMK said:


> What about the threats of a "revolution" had Clinton won, were they just empty threats you think?


Threats by who? You may have been taken in by a media talking head.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> How about Obama? Nobody thought white America would vote for a black candidate for President. When he won he said "elections have consequences. I won. You lost. Get over it". There were no riots, no protests. Trump has been gracious to Clinton and his Democrat opponents, and called for unity and progress, and look what happened.
> 
> The Democrats are the "deplorable" ones.
> 
> Maybe Trump should lock them up in FEMA camps where they can be forced to drink domestic beer, study the Constitution and learn how to do jobs that contribute to the economy (Sarkylert)


No protests? Really? Have you forgotten the tea party?


----------



## wraphter

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump has been gracious to Clinton and his Democrat opponents, and called for unity and progress, and look what happened.


Gracious?

During one debate he threatened to prosecute her for the email case if he wins. Rumour has it that if Giuliani is AG, he will reopen the email case against her.

Then there were remarks about the second amendment folks doing something if Hillary tries to take away their guns,or her secret service
agents should give up their weapons.

Very gracious.

Wait 24 hours and he will have a new opinion.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> The contact with Russia is being reported all over the world.
> 
> It was Russia's deputy foreign minister who made the statements.
> 
> The revelation is causing a great deal of concern in NATO countries.
> 
> Trump was receiving classified information briefings. It is a serious development.
> 
> No doubt the FBI will be forced to investigate what information was passed to the Russians.
> 
> _"Obviously, we know most of the people from his entourage,” *Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told the state-run Interfax news agency *in an interview reported on by The Washington Post. “Those people have always been in the limelight in the United States and *have occupied high-ranking positions*. I cannot say that all of them but quite a few have been staying in touch with Russian representatives.”_




sags this is a huge story. A russian deputy foreign minister is a giant catch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/world/europe/trump-campaign-russia.html?_r=0


when you put yourself in putin's shoes, it's a brilliant strategy. Already it's produced a home run.

cultivate & feed donald trump with wikileaks for years. Intensify the anti-clinton wikileaks feed during the campaign.

upon gaining the presidency, trump will trim US funding to NATO. Send bills to NATO members. Bully members into exiting NATO.

in the final chapter it will be easy for russia to insinuate soldiers crimea-invasion style, into northern europe & ukraine.

what is so shocking is that the US circus entertainer doesn't even realize that he's being used.

.


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> How about Obama? Nobody thought white America would vote for a black candidate for President. When he won he said "elections have consequences. I won. You lost. Get over it". There were no riots, no protests. Trump has been gracious to Clinton and his Democrat opponents, and called for unity and progress, and look what happened.
> 
> The Democrats are the "deplorable" ones.
> 
> Maybe Trump should lock them up in FEMA camps where they can be forced to drink domestic beer, study the Constitution and learn how to do jobs that contribute to the economy (Sarkylert)


He's going to have to prove his graciousness. Talk is cheap, especially for perennial liars like Trump. Everyone fawning over Scott Adams characterization of Trump as a master persuader seem to be missing the point that persuasion in this case is code for manipulation and lying. Trump is being lauded for insincerely duping people into voting for him with the hope of pulling a bait and switch.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> No protests? Really? Have you forgotten the tea party?


And what did Obama do?? He acted like a petty dictator and sic'd the IRS on them.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> He's going to have to prove his graciousness. Talk is cheap, especially for perennial liars like Trump. Everyone fawning over Scott Adams characterization of Trump as a master persuader seem to be missing the point that persuasion in this case is code for manipulation and lying. Trump is being lauded for insincerely duping people into voting for him with the hope of pulling a bait and switch.


Yeah, too bad an upstanding non-liar like Hillary wasn't elected, lol.

Now that she has lost, she will ignore all the people that supported her as they have outlived their usefulness.


----------



## sags

It sounds like the FBI had obtained search warrants and have been investigating Trump - Russia communications.

Perhaps Russia made the surprise announcement to try to minimize the damage.

There is little doubt that Russia tried to influence the US election.


----------



## Argonaut

Notice how the left is starting to look like the tinfoil hat conspirators now. Lamestream media is reporting on vague statements by some Russian guy. Haven't we learned that the shitty mainstream media has lost all credibility? What about all the ABC and CNN polls that had Hillary up by 10 points? Oh wait, those were completely fabricated and skewed. It's time to bow to your new Zero Hedge overlords. It's our turn now.


----------



## humble_pie

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Trump has been gracious to Clinton and his Democrat opponents



how is reading a few canned words off 2 teleprompters any kind of graciousness though. Apart from those canned goods which his elders & betters forced him to mouthe, trump throughout the campaign was the epitome of cruelty & verbal abuse.

check out 10-year-old barron trump, standing alongside in order to witness his father's victory speech. When he wasn't yawning & blinking to prevent falling asleep, the little boy was rolling his eyes. 

.


----------



## sags

The deputy foreign minister of Russia announcing it on Russian controlled state media is "vague statements by some Russian guy" ?

If someone was passing classified information during the meetings with the Russians, it would be treason.


----------



## bass player

The future of the Clinton Foundation


----------



## carverman

So CMF peeple...do you think Trump's landslide victory by the Republicans is a good thing for America in the next 4 years ?
or the beginning of the dismantling of: NAFTA, Obamacare,as well as kill the Iran Nuclear agreement that Obama had set up, 
restricted immigration and other things that he has vowed to cancel or modify in his campaign rhetorical speeches.

He may have the Republican dominated congress in his pocket as well as his foot in the Republican part of the senate to push his policies through
what do you think is going to happen to the US economy over the next few years.


----------



## mordko

The polls could have been fabricated. Or people may have been a little shy admitting they were voting for Trump. Or pollsters may have been incorrect in their assumptions on who will vote and where.

I mean... Hillary did win the popular vote and her underperformance was within the margin of error. You are promoting a fabrication that the polls were fabricated.


----------



## sags

I predict a Trump Presidency will be nothing but infighting by Republicans and outright battles with Democrats.

I don't think he will achieve much of anything, because all he has is a wishlist and no idea how to get it done.

It sounds like he is going to surround himself with people who know nothing.......Sarah Palin, Ben Carson.....

Pick any one of the topics........NAFTA, Obamacare, Iran deal..........they would each take more than 4 years to change.

Keystone has been in the running for what............11 years and still isn't approved.

Four years of nothing and then Trump gets the boot.


----------



## olivaw

Less than 48 hours after becoming president-elect, Trump has his first major scandal - and it involves the Russian government. Boy, he's off to a great start. 

To be fair, the Russian government may be involved in a game of manipulation.


----------



## sags

Yup and Trump has a court appearance scheduled for November 28th over the Trump University scandal.

If Tom Clancy wrote a book about all this stuff, nobody would believe it was possible.

This election brings back memories of a movie...........One Flew Over The Cuckoo Nest.

No wonder people are protesting.


----------



## SMK

bass player said:


> I wonder how low Bill's "speaking fees" will fall??


How about future donations to their foundation? 

2 Clintons, 42 years, $3 billion. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/clinton-money/


----------



## humble_pie

Argonaut said:


> Notice how the left is starting to look like the tinfoil hat conspirators now. Lamestream media is reporting on vague statements by some Russian guy. Haven't we learned that the shitty mainstream media has lost all credibility?



alas it's Argonaut who has lost all credibility. A deputy russian foreign minister is not "some guy." He's huge. Sooner than expected, americans will likely start using the "I" word on this case.

it's a pity Argo grew up into such a mean, taunting personnage, lately evidencing so much trouble with authority figures. Argo was an exceptionally talented & interesting young man in his early 20s. Even had a sense of humour back then.


look at this. It's bittersick.



Argonaut said:


> It's time to bow to your new Zero Hedge overlords. It's our turn now.


.


----------



## bass player

I heard that Trump met with the DOJ on his private plane earlier today and it will shortly be announced that there will be no investigation.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> I heard that Trump met with the DOJ on his private plane earlier today and it will shortly be announced that there will be no investigation.



that could only be an interim measure, if indeed it's true at all


----------



## humble_pie

olivaw said:


> To be fair, the Russian government may be involved in a game of manipulation.



lol understatement of the year


----------



## bass player

humble_pie said:


> that could only be an interim measure, if indeed it's true at all


It was a joke...it's funny how quickly some people completely forget Bill Clinton's "chance" meeting with the DOJ at the airport when Hillary was being investigated... 

Do all liberals have selective amnesia?


----------



## olivaw

I heard that Rudy Giuliani has called peaceful protestors "_a bunch of spoiled crybabies_." It has to be like Bass Players plane story - made up. Not even Giuliani could be _that_ stupid.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> It was a joke....



ah, yes, like the diaper joke. Bass you are a laff-a-minute.

.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

wraphter said:


> Gracious?
> 
> During one debate he threatened to prosecute her for the email case if he wins. Rumour has it that if Giuliani is AG, he will reopen the email case against her.
> 
> Then there were remarks about the second amendment folks doing something if Hillary tries to take away their guns,or her secret service
> agents should give up their weapons.
> 
> Very gracious.
> 
> Wait 24 hours and he will have a new opinion.


I was talking about AFTER the election when he complimented Clinton and her people on a hard fought campaign and offered to let bygones be bygones. Did you even look at Trump's election night speech ?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

andrewf said:


> No protests? Really? Have you forgotten the tea party?


That had nothing to do with him. They were protesting Bush's giveaway of $700 billion to the big banks. That was before Obama became President.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

olivaw said:


> Less than 48 hours after becoming president-elect, Trump has his first major scandal - and it involves the Russian government. Boy, he's off to a great start.
> 
> To be fair, the Russian government may be involved in a game of manipulation.


What scandal? Is it bigger than Hillary leaving her email server wide open to their intelligence operatives?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

OK I am done. The election is over, it is obvious the lefties and Democrats have no interest in democracy and will fight the new government tooth and nail. If Trump gets anything done, anything at all, it will be a miracle. They are already casting the most routine things, like meeting with foreign diplomats and leaders, as something sinister. What a laugh. During the election they pretended he was a raving lunatic who would never get along with those people, now that he is doing it, they are sore because he is.

This has been a lot of fun, but the question 'Who will win the US election' has been answered, and how. So Adios amigos and via con Dios.


----------



## Argonaut

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/01/politics/donald-trump-russia-fbi-investigations/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-in-contact-with-trump-s-team-during-campaign

Routine, everyday contacts with Trump and Clinton campaigns.

Face it, the leftist talking points don't matter anymore. We won. Trump is reaching out to everyone. It will be okay. Relations with Russia will be better. Relations with stone-age countries like Saudi Arabia will be worse.

Most important of all, the bullying from leftists into agreeing with their worldview has been shown to be annoying and ineffective. Celebrities are crying, but they won't move to Canada. Boo-hoo. Buckle up and get ready to Make America Great Again.


----------



## olivaw

Ha ha, people should stop expressing opinons because Trump won the EC? 

Cute.


----------



## SMK

Argonaut said:


> Celebrities are crying, but they won't move to Canada. Boo-hoo. Buckle up and get ready to Make America Great Again.


But I heard role model Miley Cyrus will be leaving The Voice for Canada.


----------



## bass player

SMK said:


> But I heard role model Miley Cyrus will be leaving The Voice for Canada.


Crybaby celebrities threaten to leave the US every time a non-Democrat is elected, but not a single one of them ever does.

On the other hand, Republican supporters never threaten to leave if they don't get their way...every single one of them wants to stay in the country they love even if it is run by people they disagree with.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> I heard that Rudy Giuliani has called peaceful protestors "_a bunch of spoiled crybabies_." It has to be like Bass Players plane story - made up. Not even Giuliani could be _that_ stupid.


What made up plane story? It really happened. You have selective memory...a trait of all leftists. How quickly they replace facts with Democrat lies.

Giuliani was right...they are spoiled crybabies.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> What made up plane story? It really happened. You have selective memory...a trait of all leftists. How quickly they replace facts with Democrat lies.
> 
> Giuliani was right...they are spoiled crybabies.


Your made up story/joke about the Trump meeting on his plane - AKA _snake on a plane_ .


----------



## Nelley

The only thing this election taught us is that voodoo spirit cooking doesn't always work-Crooked Hillary can drink all the pigs blood she can handle-sometimes the dark forces the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet is trying to summon aren't listening.


----------



## new dog

mordko said:


> The polls could have been fabricated. Or people may have been a little shy admitting they were voting for Trump. Or pollsters may have been incorrect in their assumptions on who will vote and where.
> 
> I mean... Hillary did win the popular vote and her underperformance was within the margin of error. You are promoting a fabrication that the polls were fabricated.


If you add the fraud vote she is probably way behind in popular vote. For example the voting machines only seemed to malfunction by putting Trump votes to Hillary votes. Not to mention the ID thing and bringing people to polling stations and all sorts of things.


----------



## capricorn

or maybe polls were showing one thing but pollsters and media wanted to show what they wanted.

google "liberal-journalists-are-biggest-losers-in-trump-victory.html" and see a large list of talking heads who decided to be opinion makers rather than news reporters or analysts that they were supposed to be.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> And what did Obama do?? He acted like a petty dictator and sic'd the IRS on them.


That story was bogus... IRS went after left-leaning non-profits even more vigourously.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> That story was bogus... IRS went after left-leaning non-profits even more vigourously.


Yup, sure...that explains why the IRS publicly apologized for targeting conservative groups, lol. Once again, inconvenient facts are conveniently overlooked. The election proved that Democrats have lost almost all of their credibility...no one buys the BS anymore. It's time to flee the sinking ship, Andrew


----------



## james4beach

The crazy thing about this election is how much everyone took the tabloid and wacko right-wing news web sites seriously. The stories were all fiction but convinced many people. Many of which are associated with batshit-crazy ultra right conspiracy theorists

It started with the "Birther" movement. Trump fueled this nonsense starting back in 2011 when he said he didn't believe Obama was an American.

That's when the insanity began. It's been the theme of the last few years -- fantasy stories became the basis for the right-wing


----------



## mordko

andrewf said:


> That story was bogus... IRS went after left-leaning non-profits even more vigourously.


That story was so NOT bogus... IRS admitted that it did target tea-party linked groups.


----------



## mordko

Here: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/5/irs-reveals-list-of-tea-party-groups-targeted-for-/


----------



## andrewf

Rusty O'Toole said:


> OK I am done. The election is over, it is obvious the lefties and Democrats have no interest in democracy and will fight the new government tooth and nail. If Trump gets anything done, anything at all, it will be a miracle. They are already casting the most routine things, like meeting with foreign diplomats and leaders, as something sinister. What a laugh. During the election they pretended he was a raving lunatic who would never get along with those people, now that he is doing it, they are sore because he is.
> 
> This has been a lot of fun, but the question 'Who will win the US election' has been answered, and how. So Adios amigos and via con Dios.


Where does it say that in a democracy, the opposition has to meekly accept what the governing party does?


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Here: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/5/irs-reveals-list-of-tea-party-groups-targeted-for-/


They were going after political non-profits. They also went after left-leaning orgs.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Where does it say that in a democracy, the opposition has to meekly accept what the governing party does?


It doesn't. But, that's exactly what the Democrats and media demanded of Trump. 

Once again, the left demands others do what they are not willing to do. It's the same old same old, and that's why people voted the hypocrites out of office.


----------



## olivaw

james4beach said:


> The crazy thing about this election is how much everyone took the tabloid and wacko right-wing news web sites seriously. The stories were all fiction but convinced many people. Many of which are associated with batshit-crazy ultra right conspiracy theorists


It's alarming but I suspect that it is a product of the Internet. In the past, an individual had to go out of his or her way to engage with fellow conspiracy theorists - join a club, send away for a book, subscribe to a magazine. Now an aspiring conspiracy theorist can reach millions of gullible readers and gullible readers can find any number of conspiracy sites to support their favourite conspiracy. 

I suspect that Trump used conspiracy theories as a campaign tool. It's nothing new - basically old fashioned propaganda.


----------



## carverman

Ok folks, I'm "a bit" rusty when it comes to understanding US government day to day operations..so I'm asking RUSTY O'TOOLE to clarify a few things here.

1. In the House of Representatives (Congress), there is a Majority leader (Republican) and a Minority leader (Democrat)
who has the greatest influence on the president?

2. Currently according to Wiki; there are *186 Democrat reps* and *246 Republican reps* and 3 vacant for 435 reps in total in the House of Representatives.
Why can't a majority Republican congress be able push Trump's bills through like we do in Canada, when our Parliament is more Liberal than Conservative
(or vice versa as in the Harper govt) and get things done? 

3. Why do they need to filibuster?


----------



## humble_pie

james4beach said:


> The crazy thing about this election is how much everyone took the tabloid and wacko right-wing news web sites seriously. The stories were all fiction but convinced many people. Many of which are associated with batshit-crazy ultra right conspiracy theorists




this is the dark poison side of the internet.

i'll gladly volunteer to be the curmudgeon & say it was dark internet poison that won the US election. Donald Trump just happened to be the catalyst that crystallized it.

for years, what we see when we look around the world is a growing tsunami of rage & resentment & blaming & demonizing others.

it's a monster movement convulsing the planet. It's mob rule. It's already reached the stage of public lynching. We can clearly observe lynchers calling for the noose right here in cmf forum.

me i believe that the fury has been fuelled by millions of youtube lies, social media poison & extreme fringe websites pretending to be "media." IE the dark ignorant side of the internet.

i see even the murderers of ISIL - with their internet-fed belief in their "righteous" religion that calls for slaughter of ******* - as part of this global rage.

i think that donald trump only accidentally happened to be the US candidate around whom all the latent fury in america crystallized. It could have been Bernie Sanders, except that sanders wasn't angry enough or crazy enough or megalomaniac enough. 

bref, sanders wasn't *unfit* enough. But unhinged donald was. He attracted the hordes of angry unhappy like a lightning rod.


here's a typical angry unhappy brandishing her noose:



Nelley said:


> The only thing this election taught us is that voodoo spirit cooking doesn't always work-Crooked Hillary can drink all the pigs blood she can handle-sometimes the dark forces the Sick Demented Criminal Puppet is trying to summon aren't listening.



.


----------



## bass player

It was time for someone to trot out the "right wing conspiracy" excuse again, lol.

No one believes the leftist lies any more...they voted the criminals out of office, and progressives had a meltdown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grD_IINiH9c


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> It doesn't. But, that's exactly what the Democrats and media demanded of Trump.
> 
> Once again, the left demands others do what they are not willing to do. It's the same old same old, and that's why people voted the hypocrites out of office.


You're mistaken. The Democrats that I know are fully supportive of free speech. 

Dems have to accept the outcome of the election. They don't have to stop fighting for what they believe.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> It was time for someone to trot out the "right wing conspiracy" excuse again, lol.
> 
> No one believes the leftist lies any more...they voted the criminals out of office, and progressives had a meltdown



it's not a conspiracy. The minority of alt-right ignorant poison has gone full flower in america for now, but fortunately many in the democratic party - plus some patriotic republicans - will keep tabs on the shambling orange oaf & try to prevent the worst from happening.

bass you yourself & your ilk - with your neverending lies & your disgusting diaper obsessions - are a fine example of the horror.

.


----------



## Nelley

Topical and entertaining video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grD_IINiH9c


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> It doesn't. But, that's exactly what the Democrats and media demanded of Trump.
> 
> Once again, the left demands others do what they are not willing to do. It's the same old same old, and that's why people voted the hypocrites out of office.


Are you referring to Trump suggesting he wouldn't accept the results of the election if he lost? Hillary conceded. 

No one was suggesting that Trump wouldn't be allowed to tweet his displeasure at what Hillary was doing if she won.


----------



## andrewf

Is everyone now willing to admit that the election wasn't rigged? If Hillary was going to rig the election, one would have expected her to win....


----------



## sags

In answer to your question Carverman, 

The US is a big country and very diverse. The local representatives are not tied to the leader's fate as they are in Canada.

The local members of the Senate and Congress, value the attitudes of their own voters much more than following the party or leader.

They have to if they want to keep their jobs. Any representative who strays too far away from what the local population want.......gets a primary challenge from someone else who will follow the desires of the population.

That is not to say the majority won't follow the party doctrine, but not all will all the time.

In order to secure votes, they can sometimes be convinced by "goodies" added to the legislation, which is called pork barrelling.

A vote on raising the federal minimum wage may contain hundreds of amendments on everything from building a school somewhere to providing money for something elsewhere. The amendments have nothing to do with raising the minimum wage, but they do secure the necessary votes to pass the legislation to raise the minimum wage.

It often takes a combination of both Republicans and Democrats to get anything passed, because they can't count on the full vote of either party in every piece of legislation.

The majority and minority leaders are basically the equivalent of the "house whip" in Canada. They organize the members in their party, find out how they are voting on an issue, lobby them for support and ensure they are in Washington at the time of the vote.

It is a far more complicated system than in Canada and this only scratches the surface.

There are many complex rules that are followed, procedures and committees etc...........to get anything passed.


----------



## olivaw

andrewf said:


> Is everyone now willing to admit that the election wasn't rigged? If Hillary was going to rig the election, one would have expected her to win....


A poster wrote that voting machines were converting Trump votes to Hillary. Apparently Trump won the popular but the masters don't want us to know it. :chargrined:


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Are you referring to Trump suggesting he wouldn't accept the results of the election if he lost? Hillary conceded.
> 
> No one was suggesting that Trump wouldn't be allowed to tweet his displeasure at what Hillary was doing if she won.


Once again you fail to grasp a very simple point. Trump was asked if he would accept the election results BEFORE the election. He said that he would wait until it was over...presumably to see if there were any discrepancies. However, he was immediately attacked by the left for questioning democracy.

Then the election happened and the left supporters are now crying foul...the same people that criticized Trump for not accepting the election are now not accepting the election. They have been exposed as hypocrites.

The left also accused Trump supporters of inciting violence during the campaign, but video evidence proved that it was paid Democrat supporters who incited the violence. Today, the left are once again involved in violent protests.

Progressives have been proven to be crybabies that lie, cheat, and incite violence. Enough people finally realized that and voted for a different party. They can whine and stomp their feet and cry "racist" but no one is listening anymore.


----------



## olivaw

*Hate Crimes in Trump's America*. 



> Fears of heightened bigotry and hate crimes have turned into reality for some Americans after Donald Trump's presidential win.
> 
> Racist, pro-Trump graffiti painted inside a high school. A hijab-wearing college student robbed by men talking about Trump and Muslims.
> 
> While Trump has been accused of fostering xenophobia and Islamophobia, some of his supporters have used his words as justification to carry out hateful acts.


Trump's response - crickets.


----------



## bass player

Cherry picking again? Why don't you post some of the videos of the Hillary supporters rioting?

Just like the Democrats, you have become an irrelevant nuisance. The progressive reign of terror is over....you better find a safe space to hide in for the next 8 years


----------



## carverman

sags said:


> The US is a big country and very diverse. The local representatives are not tied to the leader's fate as they are in Canada.


Thanks Sags, I knew that US politics are much more complicated than Canadian, Trump will certainly learn that his influence as President will be a lot harder to deal with, than the reality shows he's used to, where the players in these reality shows always give in to him because he's Mr. Trump. If they don't perform to his expectations..he tells them "You're Fired!" It will certainly be a lot different in the White House and dealing with Congress. 



> The local members of the Senate and Congress, value the attitudes of their own voters much more than following the party or leader.


That makes sense..too bad we don't have the same rules and objectives in our Parliament..but I suppose if we did, then nothing would get done too.



> They have to if they want to keep their jobs. Any representative who strays too far away from what the local population want.......gets a primary challenge from someone else who will follow the desires of the population.


So the congressman or woman representing their population (like our ridings) can be replaced. The president can be impeached, like Bill Clinton *almost* was. Interesting form of democracy where it's the people that have the final
say. 



> It often takes a combination of both Republicans and Democrats to get anything passed, because they can't count on the full vote of either party in every piece of legislation.


That seems to be a kind of slip-shod government they have these days, but this seems to be their version of a democratic gov't ...every person for themselves. 



> There are many complex rules that are followed, procedures and committees etc...........to get anything passed.


 Trump hasn't had any experience in running a gov't yet..I think he's going to learn very quickly that his ideas are not going to get as far as he thinks they will.
Good thing, otherwise we would have another modern day dictator.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Cherry picking again? Why don't you post some of the videos of the Hillary supporters rioting?


Quit yer whining. 

Here's a picture of Americans exercising their right to peaceful assembly and protest. It's glorious.


----------



## Nelley

olivaw said:


> *Hate Crimes in Trump's America*.
> 
> 
> 
> Trump's response - crickets.


CNN doesn't even pretend to be a legitimate news source anymore-they have gone so far in lying and distortion that they have even separated themselves from lousy MSM like CBS and ABC. I mean really-getting caught giving the questions ahead of time to a presidential candidate in a debate-how low will they stoop? I know-they say Brazile went rogue but their rep was so bad anyway nobody but braindead sheep bought their B/S excuses.


----------



## humble_pie

bass player said:


> you better find a safe space to hide in for the next 8 years



actually i doubt that donald trump will even last out his first term of office


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Quit yer whining.
> 
> Here's a picture of Americans exercising their right to peaceful assembly and protest. It's glorious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12762


Funny those people holding a sign after losing the election don't look glorious. They look angry and unhappy.


----------



## olivaw

Protestors are always angry and unhappy. It's why they protest.


----------



## olivaw

humble_pie said:


> actually i doubt that donald trump will even last out his first term of office


Impeachment?


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Protestors are always angry and unhappy. It's why they protest.


Hey...it's tough living in a free country in your parent's basement with all the necessary things in life provided for you, not having to go to war, not having to wonder where your next meal comes from. Those poor misunderstood snowflakes have no idea what a real protest is...


----------



## andrewf

"2nd amendment remedies".


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Hey...it's tough living in a free country in your parent's basement with all the necessary things in life provided for you, not having to go to war, not having to wonder where your next meal comes from. Those poor misunderstood snowflakes...


This is about as fair as calling all Trump supporters white supremacists.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Protestors are always angry and unhappy. It's why they protest.


You haven't explained why the protesters are glorious.


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> This is about as fair as calling all Trump supporters white supremacists.


Calling someone a snowflake is as bad as making false racist accusations? I don't know how to respond to such stupidity...but thinking like yours is exactly why people chose Trump over Hillary.


----------



## andrewf

Fair as in accurate. Some among the voters were white supremacists/SJW snowflakes, but it is not fair/accurate to pretend they represented a major portion of each candidate's base.


----------



## mordko

Trudeau decided to stick to his guns on taxing the industry for greenhouse gas emissions.

Praiseworthy. There is nothing like a good principle and screw Canadian industry which isn't going to get any investment when there is a more profitable alternative next door. That's a very loud "f-k you" to the workers across Canada.


----------



## sags

Trump wants to appeal and replace Obamacare.

On the day after he was elected, 100,000 more people signed up for it.

There are 20 million Americans on Obamacare. That is almost twice the number of people who voted.

If Trump really wants to see protests..........repeal the healthcare of those 20 million and see what happens.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> You haven't explained why the protesters are glorious.


Protestors are people. Peaceful protests are glorious. Do you understand why?


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> Fair as in accurate. Some among the voters were white supremacists/SJW snowflakes, but it is not fair/accurate to pretend they represented a major portion of each candidate's base.


Get serous. It's not accurate to compare "snowflake" to "white supremacist" by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> Trudeau decided to stick to his guns on taxing the industry for greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> Praiseworthy. There is nothing like a good principle and screw Canadian industry which isn't going to get any investment when there is a more profitable alternative next door. That's a very loud "f-k you" to the workers across Canada.


I don't understand any of the philosophy or economics of taxing polluters. How does paying to pollute help lower pollution ? 

The cost just gets passed on to consumers.

Wouldn't it be better to support companies to transition to clean energy, by providing expertise and tax breaks ?

As I said though. I don't know much about it.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> Trump wants to appeal and replace Obamacare.
> 
> On the day after he was elected, 100,000 more people signed up for it.
> 
> There are 20 million Americans on Obamacare. That is almost twice the number of people who voted.
> 
> If Trump really wants to see protests..........repeal the healthcare of those 20 million and see what happens.


A few more than 20 million people voted...but, as you have proven, why let facts get in the way yet again?


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> Trudeau decided to stick to his guns on taxing the industry for greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> Praiseworthy. There is nothing like a good principle and screw Canadian industry which isn't going to get any investment when there is a more profitable alternative next door. That's a very loud "f-k you" to the workers across Canada.


Trump says he'll pull out of all UN climate initiatives immediately and stop all UN climate funding. Trudeau best follow suit or he'll wreck our economy even more.


----------



## bass player

olivaw said:


> Protestors are people. Peaceful protests are glorious. Do you understand why?


It's not glorious to protest if you can't explain your position, or if your position has little or no validity.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> A few more than 20 million people voted...but, as you have proven, why let facts get in the way yet again?


I stand corrected and fixed the post.

I still remain skeptical that Trump can repeal Obamacare without creating one monster of a clusterf**k though.

In a totally private system. insurance companies will weed anyone who doesn't look profitable to them. That is just "good" business.

I also suspect that a lot of Trump supporters are the ones using Obamacare.......rural areas, farmers, agriculture workers.........

But let's give him a chance to produce the plan. Something he hasn't done for any of the promises he says he is going to fulfill.


----------



## olivaw

...


----------



## sags

I remember a television reporter grabbing someone walking by at a Tea Party rally years ago.

_Why are you here protesting_, asked the reporter.

_Because I am against all these government bailouts and entitlement programs_, said the protestor.

_What do you do for a living_, asked the reporter.

_I am on welfare assistance and food stamps_, says the protestor.

Geez Louise...........I don't know how the reporter kept a straight face.


----------



## mordko

OK, I am looking at some of the potential appointments. John Bolton, Rudi Giuliani, Jamie Dimon from JP Morgan... Not so bad.

Perhaps everything he was saying during the campaign was BS. Quite likely given his track record. That would actually be a good thing.


----------



## sags

bass player said:


> Trump says he'll pull out of all UN climate initiatives immediately and stop all UN climate funding. Trudeau best follow suit or he'll wreck our economy even more.


In 4 years, the next President from whichever party wins, will be doing exactly what Trudeau has been doing for the past couple of years........fixing his predecessors mistakes.


----------



## bass player

sags said:


> I stand corrected and fixed the post.
> 
> I still remain skeptical that Trump can repeal Obamacare without creating one monster of a clusterf**k though.
> 
> In a totally private system. insurance companies will weed anyone who doesn't look profitable to them. That is just "good" business.
> 
> I also suspect that a lot of Trump supporters are the ones using Obamacare.......rural areas, farmers, agriculture workers.........
> 
> But let's give him a chance to produce the plan. Something he hasn't done for any of the promises he says he is going to fulfill.


Trump will surround himself with competent advisors and likely will not take any major steps without serious thought. He was campaigning before and soundbites were his bread and butter, but it's not longer about headlines. If one of his advisors says "If you do that, a lot of people will be affected in a bad way", I expect that he will listen and try to minimize causing problems for innocent people.


----------



## sags

I hope you are right.


----------



## andrewf

sags said:


> I don't understand any of the philosophy or economics of taxing polluters. How does paying to pollute help lower pollution ?
> 
> The cost just gets passed on to consumers.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to support companies to transition to clean energy, by providing expertise and tax breaks ?
> 
> As I said though. I don't know much about it.


Company A pollutes, pays tax, and passes on cost to consumers. Company B makes a small investment to reduce pollution, pays less tax, undercuts Company A, and drives Company A out of business. Lather rinse repeat.

Subsidizing investments is wasteful, because a lot of those investments would have been made anyway.


----------



## bass player

mordko said:


> OK, I am looking at some of the potential appointments. John Bolton, Rudi Giuliani, Jamie Dimon from JP Morgan... Not so bad.


How about Trey Gowdy to replace Loretta Lynch??


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Trump will surround himself with competent advisors and likely will not take any major steps without serious thought. He was campaigning before and soundbites were his bread and butter, but it's not longer about headlines. If one of his advisors says "If you do that, a lot of people will be affected in a bad way", I expect that he will listen and try to minimize causing problems for innocent people.


What evidence do you have to support this? Your fervent hope he is a better person than he's been advertising himself to be for the past few decades?

Trump has not historically surrounded himself with competent advisors.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> OK, I am looking at some of the potential appointments. John Bolton, Rudi Giuliani, Jamie Dimon from JP Morgan... Not so bad.
> 
> Perhaps everything he was saying during the campaign was BS. Quite likely given his track record. That would actually be a good thing.


John Bolton wants to go to war with Iran.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> A few more than 20 million people voted...but, as you have proven, why let facts get in the way yet again?


More of whom voted for Hillary than Trump...


----------



## sags

Jamie Dimon is a smug Wall Street banker.


----------



## andrewf

Yup. Jamie Dimon will be Secretary of Swamp Draining, I'm sure.


----------



## olivaw

...


----------



## bass player

andrewf said:


> More of whom voted for Hillary than Trump...


Trump knew where the swing states were and concentrated his efforts there. Campaigning in a state that was predominantly Democrat or Republican would have been a waste of resources.

And, his strategy paid off...he got more electoral votes and is President elect. Well played, Donald.


----------



## Pluto

Nelley said:


> Topical and entertaining video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grD_IINiH9c


Ann Coulter is laughing her *** of now.


----------



## sags

I have to agree with that.

Hillary Clinton should have used some resources in places like Wisconsin where she took the voters for granted and didn't bother to visit at all.....and they didn't bother to show up to vote for her.

Clinton's campaign team were cocky, arrogant and had their arse handed to them.


----------



## andrewf

bass player said:


> Trump knew where the swing states were and concentrated his efforts there. Campaigning in a state that was predominantly Democrat or Republican would have been a waste of resources.
> 
> And, his strategy paid off...he got more electoral votes and is President elect. Well played, Donald.


Sure, but any argument of democratic legitimacy predicated on Trump getting more support from voters is... false. Hillary earned more votes. The US has a backwards electoral system that makes most of the votes cast for president irrelevant, including all of those in the 3 biggest states. NY--doesn't matter. Texas--doesn't matter. California--doesn't matter.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> Protestors are people. Peaceful protests are glorious. Do you understand why?


Yes,because you are completely defensive and can't admit you lost and feel bad about it. Instead of admitting how bad you feel about losing the election you go to the other extreme. It is wonderful to lose because somehow you are noble. You are in complete denial.

Even peaceful protest can become violent. You know that too.


----------



## bass player

Love him or hate him, Trump ran one of the most brilliant political campaigns in history. 

A man known to most as a reality TV star that had no political background, no support from either party (he got a little near the end from the Republicans), no support from the media, and not enough money singlehandedly just got himself elected as President of the United States.


----------



## andrewf

olivaw was running for president and lost? Did you at least beat Jill Stein?


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> I have to agree with that.
> 
> Hillary Clinton should have used some resources in places like Wisconsin where she took the voters for granted and didn't bother to visit at all.....and they didn't bother to show up to vote for her.
> 
> Clinton's campaign team were cocky, arrogant and had their arse handed to them.


These are the areas that got screwed by Obama. I doubt a visit or two here and there would have changed anything.


----------



## sags

Explain to me........

I watched the prattling about how Wisconsin was such a "safe" Democratic stronghold, and I watched the series _Making A Murderer_ on Netflix, which is a about a murder trial held in Wisconsin.

I cannot for the life of me reconcile what I saw in that Netlix series about daily life in Wisconsin, with any concept of why it would be a surprise to anyone THAT state could vote Republican.

It has REPUBLICAN written all over it. Rural, agricultural, people living simple uncomplicated lives.....the polar opposite of a progressive urban metropolis upon which the Democratic base is built.

Total failure by Clinton campaign strategists.

On the losses in Ohio, Michigan and other states....as Bernie Sanders said today the Democrats have lost their way.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> Yes,because you are completely defensive and can't admit you lost and feel bad about it. Instead of admitting how bad you feel about losing the election you go to the other extreme. It is wonderful to lose because somehow you are noble. You are in complete denial.
> 
> Even peaceful protest can become violent. You know that too.


You're rambling. Do you ever have a point to make?


----------



## sags

mordko said:


> These are the areas that got screwed by Obama. I doubt a visit or two here and there would have changed anything.


Clinton found time to go after Republican strongholds. She should have been securing her base instead and she knows she screwed up badly.

Maybe it wasn't her decision. Maybe it was made by a 25 year old nerd with a laptop full of graphs and figures.....and poll numbers.


----------



## sags

The Democrats need another Obama................hey, there is one.


----------



## olivaw

sags said:


> On the losses in Ohio, Michigan and other states....as Bernie Sanders said today the Democrats have lost their way.


I don't believe it is that simple. Three days ago, people were saying that the GOP was out of touch with voters because they rejected minority outreach. Today, thanks to a few a hundred thousand well placed votes, they won both houses and the executive.

Bernie is a socialist. he appeals to younger voters but I wonder If his message would appeal to older democrats.


----------



## wraphter

olivaw said:


> You're rambling. Do you ever have a point to make?


You're a sore loser.


----------



## olivaw

wraphter said:


> You're a sore loser.


You're a troll.


----------



## wraphter

sags said:


> Clinton found time to go after Republican strongholds. She should have been securing her base instead and she knows she screwed up badly.
> 
> Maybe it wasn't her decision. Maybe it was made by a 25 year old nerd with a laptop full of graphs and figures.....and poll numbers.


She lost the states of Pennsylvania ,Michigan,and Wisconsin that were part of her blue firewall. States she was heavily favoured to win. The white,non-college vote was heavier than expected in favour of Trump and her African-American vote did not turn out enough.


----------



## new dog

olivaw said:


> It's alarming but I suspect that it is a product of the Internet. In the past, an individual had to go out of his or her way to engage with fellow conspiracy theorists - join a club, send away for a book, subscribe to a magazine. Now an aspiring conspiracy theorist can reach millions of gullible readers and gullible readers can find any number of conspiracy sites to support their favourite conspiracy.
> 
> I suspect that Trump used conspiracy theories as a campaign tool. It's nothing new - basically old fashioned propaganda.



So better to have our propaganda fed to us by CNN. If CNN was the only source out there Hillary would have won by a landslide. Also all of Hillary's corruption and crookedness would not see the light of day. Then the US would have been destroyed by immigration and maybe even nuclear war as Hillary stepped up wars everywhere. 

Actually Jeb Bush would also be the republican candidate and Trump wouldn't even be there if it was up to CNN. Under Jeb nuclear war would be certain.


----------



## andrewf

Well, the GOP better get busy over the next two years. They have the keys to the kingdom for now, and it is likely to evaporate at the next opportunity. Trump got less votes than Romney, has lower favourability ratings and less votes than the candidate he beat. He managed to win by a thin margin in a couple of states against the 2nd most unpopular candidate in modern history (beaten only by Trump). A big part of Trump's win is the collapse in turn-out among millennials. 

I wonder if the Democratic Senate minority should stonewall Trump's SCOTUS nominations until the midterms. After all, as the GOP has been saying for the past year, there is a historical precedent for leaving SCOTUS seats vacant.


----------



## olivaw

^Dems can try to filibuster Trump's SCOTUS nominee but do you think they can stonewall? I was under the impression that stonewalling referred to the refusal by the senate majority leader to call for an up-down vote.


----------



## andrewf

Filibuster.

There might be some merit to doing it, because it will cause the GOP to kill the filibuster. It would have been useful for the Dems over the past 8 years because there was an unbreakable logjam in the Senate for Obama because he needed 60 Senate votes to get anything done. When the Dems are back in power, having Senate votes by simple majority and no filibuster will help reduce gridlock.


----------



## andrewf

Here's a piece explaining the situation with the Senate filibuster. I wonder if the Republican Senate leadership will have enough restraint not to kill the filibuster. They cried bloody murder when the Dems suggested they might do so after Obama's election. I think the filibuster, in general, should go, especially when it is used so extensively. Democrats can play the long game by giving GOP plenty of reasons to kill the filibuster, so next time they control the Senate (probably in 2 years) will have a freer hand.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-future-the-filibuster-doubt


----------



## mordko

sags said:


> The Democrats need another Obama................hey, there is one.


Because the third term idea worked out so splendidly for Clintons.


----------



## mordko

Filibuster is a good thing. More often than not, blocking the Senate means that it can't do as much harm.


----------



## olivaw

The Dems killed the filibuster for some nominees (AFAIK) but I am still trying to figure out how it works for Supreme Court nominees. 

If Roe v. Wade is overturned, there will be fireworks.

ETA: From Wiki



> On November 21, 2013, the Senate used the so-called "nuclear option," voting 52-48, with all Republicans and 3 Democrats voting against, to eliminate the use of the filibuster on executive branch nominees and judicial nominees other than to the Supreme Court. At the time of the vote there were 59 executive branch nominees and 17 judicial nominees awaiting confirmation.[50]


So it appears that the Dems can indeed filibuster a Supreme Court nominees, bills and resolutions.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Filibuster is a good thing. More often than not, blocking the Senate means that it can't do as much harm.


Maybe I just prefer parliamentary systems. Give a government some leash then toss the bastards if they screw up. The US government is in perpetual limbo, and a cat-and-mouse game of procedural jiggery pokery to overcome unprincipled opposition.


----------



## sags

Judges aren't stupid. 

Regardless of how much the Republicans might want to repeal Roe versus Wade, it is highly unlikely the SCC would want to become their political tools and set off what would surely be a citizen firestorm across the US.

It would be difficult to imagine the SCC would conclude Republicans have the support of a vast majority of Americans.

Individual States would refuse to honor the new law. It would spark a chaos of legal battles at every level of the judiciary.

In their wisdom as jurists, the SCC may choose to refuse to hear the case, or fashion a tie with deciding votes abstaining.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

One last word. This guy gets it. What you have to do to defeat Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs&feature=youtu.be&t=22


----------



## new dog

I am wondering what is everyone protesting about in the US.

Are they upset that the TPP won't pass and corporations can't screw the country over. 

Are they upset that they don't have someone in the White House that just says nice stuff but does nothing.

Maybe they are upset that Trump won't import religious nut jobs to give the country a new look.

Or is it that they listen to much the same media propaganda crap as James and believe Trump is KKK or whatever.

I don't think importing religious nuts overseas and adding it to the white religious nuts here is going to do the country any good. This was the Hillary plan to multiply the stupidity through importation.

Sorry to pick you out james but you did say the big rant here. I agree with you though james, I don't care much for radical white people either but I certainly don't want to add to it and I don't think Trump does either.


----------



## olivaw

new dog said:


> I am wondering what is everyone protesting about in the US.


Fear, on both sides? It's nothing new. 

On November 6, 2012, when it was announced that Obama beat Mitt Romney, Donald Trump tweeted:


‏@realDonaldTrump said:


> We can't let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty. Our nation is totally divided!
> 9:29 PM - 6 Nov 2012


David A. Clarke, Jr. is a potential Trump homeland secretary. In mid October 2015 he tweeted:


@SheriffClarke said:


> It's incredible that our institutions of gov, WH, Congress, DOJ, and big media are corrupt & all we do is *****. Pitchforks and torches time
> 9:30 AM - 15 Oct 2016


----------



## james4beach

new dog said:


> Sorry to pick you out james but you did say the big rant here. I agree with you though james, I don't care much for radical white people either but I certainly don't want to add to it and I don't think Trump does either.


I disagree on that last point. I think Trump got elected based on that kind of support.

Trump's core support lies in *********** and white supremacy. There were other issues attracting voters to Trump, but this was the dominant one. Trump is the candidate who *promised white Christians* that they will attain *greatness* again. "Make America Great Again" means "Make White America Great Again"

http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/u-s-election-2016/1.752049
https://www.thenation.com/article/this-is-what-white-supremacy-looks-like/

If you doubt what I say, phone up one of your Jewish or black friends who lives in the USA. Ask them what they think.

Many Canadians on this forum think that ***********/supremacy is some kind of fringe radical movement in the USA. You're wrong: it's _main stream_. It is central to the American psyche.


----------



## mordko

james4beach said:


> I disagree on that last point. I think Trump got elected based on that kind of support.
> 
> Trump's core support lies in *********** and white supremacy. There were other issues attracting voters to Trump, but this was the dominant one. Trump is the candidate who *promised white Christians* that they will attain *greatness* again. "Make America Great Again" means "Make White America Great Again"
> 
> http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/u-s-election-2016/1.752049
> https://www.thenation.com/article/this-is-what-white-supremacy-looks-like/
> 
> If you doubt what I say, phone up one of your Jewish or black friends who lives in the USA. Ask them what they think.
> 
> Many Canadians on this forum think that ***********/supremacy is some kind of fringe radical movement in the USA. You're wrong: it's _main stream_. It is central to the American psyche.


Except that it's not "make America white again". You can add any word to any dumb slogan to make it sound ominous.

Yes, Trump said some racist things. So? LBJ and Nixon were both virulent racists and antisemites. Trumps personal racism is highly questionable. He went to a black church and wore a Jewish shawl while there. Is that what a white supremacist does? His daughter Ivanka and her husband who run Trumps business are both Jewish, as are several people holding key roles in his camp. 

White supremacism absolutely IS a fringe movement in the US. You are confusing America of 1916 and 2016. Canada has triple the level of antisemitism compared to the US, and that's still small compared to most places in Europe. Antisemitism is indeed a serious problem at American universities, but people behind it would have voted for Clinton.

There are very different views among both Jewish and black people in the US. I know for a fact, because I do have acquaintances among both communities. Assuming they all uphold identical views is a little racist.

http://49yzp92imhtx8radn224z7y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Trump.png


----------



## james4beach

Trump himself may not be a white supremacist, but he's gained power based on their support. And yes I expect a man who wants to win the presidency to pull some stunts like that -- because he needs some black supporters. It's a nice touch to wear a Jewish shawl and praise Israel from one side of his mouth while befriending neonazis and sprouting anti-semitic innuendo from the other side of his mouth.

What else do you expect from a con man? He plays the crowd to get what he wants.


----------



## mordko

Which neonazis did Trump befriend exactly? Anyway, if you get upset by racist friends then you must hate Obama big time. Remember pastor Wright?


----------



## james4beach

Trump's campaign fed material that neo nazis ate up. While not directly endorsing neo nazis of course, they both provided fuel for those causes and refused to speak out against them. When neo Nazi web site Stormfront endorsed him, Trump said nothing to counteract it. Additionally, the Trump campaign tweeted White Genocide messages more than once, which led neo-Nazi leaders to state that Trump must be in their camp and it can't be accidental. Details at

http://www.motherjones.com/politics...hate-groups-neo-nazi-white-supremacist-racism
http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/3/12090338/trump-tweet-incompetent


----------



## mordko

Yes, there was support among the fringe far right movements. Yes, Trump messaged to the fringe. Some of it was out of stupidity, some may have been deliberate. He was very big on conspiracy theories, which are popular on both the far left and the far right. 

But that's not what you were saying.


----------



## mordko

And Mother Jones is a crazy website. Not familiar with the Verge.


----------



## andrewf

mordko said:


> Yes, there was support among the fringe far right movements. Yes, Trump messaged to the fringe. Some of it was out of stupidity, some may have been deliberate. He was very big on conspiracy theories, which are popular on both the far left and the far right.
> 
> But that's not what you were saying.


Trump played footsie with David Duke, pretending he didn't know about his association with the KKK.


----------



## sags

Listening to conservative radio, which I do all the time because it is the most interesting to listen to, it is very clear that the majority of conservatives believe that Trump will not follow through on many of his promises. He will instead make some small changes in an effort to appease the more right wing conservatives.

Republican Congressmen were talking today about Obamacare and they said nothing is going to change immediately. They envision keeping some of the Obamacare plan and making some changes such as shifting those with pre-conditions to a high risk pool.....where insurance companies will be subsidized by taxpayers against losses.

It doesn't sound much different that what the Democrats would probably have ended up doing to fix the flaws in the system, except they would have been called "socialists" for doing it.

During his life Trump has been far more liberal than conservative. 

I am tending to agree with Bass, Rusty and some others that Trump said a lot of things during the campaign to attract votes and now will moderate or ignore much of it.

Who knows what will happen, but it is possible that Republicans will be more unhappy with Trump than Democrats in a couple of years.


----------



## Nelley

james4beach said:


> Trump himself may not be a white supremacist, but he's gained power based on their support. And yes I expect a man who wants to win the presidency to pull some stunts like that -- because he needs some black supporters. It's a nice touch to wear a Jewish shawl and praise Israel from one side of his mouth while befriending neonazis and sprouting anti-semitic innuendo from the other side of his mouth.
> 
> What else do you expect from a con man? He plays the crowd to get what he wants.


You do realize that you are EXACTLY the type of person Martin Luther King fought against-he spoke of a colour blind society-where everyone is judged by who they are, not pigeon holed into a separate demographic or gang like you continually do with your race obsessed posts.


----------



## bass player

The media spent months lying and portraying Trump as a racist monster with help from the morally corrupt Democrats. Now progressives are rioting in the streets while the Dems/media blame him instead of their campaign of lies.

Shame on them.


----------



## sags

This election revealed that America has not changed as much as they thought.

Nebraska voted to re-instate the death penalty. Oklahoma defended the death penalty.

I am personally torn on this issue, as well as many others. 

On one hand I think the punishment should fit the crime. On the other I think one wrongful execution is too many.

I am not sure there is a "right" answer for a lot of problems these days. Life is too complicated for easy answers.

Interesting though, that a map of only millennial voters showed that Clinton would have won 504 electoral votes.

The future is theirs to worry about.


----------



## andrewf

Nelley said:


> You do realize that you are EXACTLY the type of person Martin Luther King fought against-he spoke of a colour blind society-where everyone is judged by who they are, not pigeon holed into a separate demographic or gang like you continually do with your race obsessed posts.


Trump is at least as guilty. He talks about how "the blacks" love him, "the latinos" love him.


----------



## bass player

Where did all the pre-printed same message protest signs come from if this was an unorganized protest??


----------



## wraphter

Donald Trump seeks to delay trial until after inauguration



> President-elect Donald Trump wants to delay the federal fraud trial he faces here Nov. 28 until after his inauguration in January, his attorney told a judge on Thursday, two days after Trump was elected president.
> 
> When the judge asked why, Trump's attorney, Daniel Petrocelli, summed it up like this:
> 
> "In view of Mr. Trump’s election as President of the United States, your honor."
> 
> Petrocelli also questioned whether Trump actually would be available to testify in court as a sitting president. He said never has there been a case in the history of the United States in which a president had to come into court to testify in a trial as a defendant. Trump might testify by video instead.
> 
> "His obligations right now are just monumental," Petrocelli told U.S. District Court Judge Gonzalo Curiel.
> 
> Curiel said he understood and said it would be wise for the two sides to settle the case, a class-action fraud lawsuit involving Trump and his now-defunct Trump University.
> 
> ........
> 
> Curiel didn't say how he would rule but said he expects the case to last into mid-December if it starts as scheduled. An attorney for the plaintiffs, Jason Forge, told USA TODAY after the hearing that he didn't think the request for a delay got any traction with Curiel.
> 
> "It’s hard to say a sitting president is less busy or more expendable than a president-elect," Forge said.
> 
> ..........
> 
> *While the open cases are civil, some legal scholars raise the prospect that a court could ultimately find Trump University or even Trump personally liable for fraud. In the worst case, a finding that fraud took place — even by a civil court — could provide Congress with the grounds to consider impeachment proceedings.*


So Trump could settle or go to trial and possibly get convicted of fraud which could lead to his impeachment.
Very interesting.


----------



## olivaw

bass player said:


> Where did all the pre-printed same message protest signs come from if this was an unorganized protest??


Almost all of the signs are hand made.

Trump initially tweeted the protests were unfair to him but he changed his tweet, (or somebody did). He doesn't share your outrage. 



@realDonaldTrump said:


> Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country. We will all come together and be proud!
> 4:14 AM - 11 Nov 2016


----------



## SMK

Nelley said:


> continually do with your race obsessed posts.


Judging James4beach's concern shown mostly about the "white right-wing terrorists, white supremacists and anti-refugee nationalists" you may be right. 

And why are you so obsessed with Hillary Clinton?


----------



## Nelley

Funny video about the stupid MSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcypqVp6WFI


----------



## sags

Election bits....

So Trump got his Twitter password back.....and so it begins again.


----------



## Nelley

SMK said:


> Judging James4beach's concern shown mostly about the "white right-wing terrorists, white supremacists and anti-refugee nationalists" you may be right.
> 
> And why are you so obsessed with Hillary Clinton?


I must confess my Crooked Hillary obsession has waned over the last few days-but here is good one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-KOIhE87AU


----------



## sags

Election bits..........

The infamous Sheriff Arpaio got the boot by voters in Arizona after 24 years in office.


----------



## sags

Election bits...

Trump received fewer votes than McCain in 2008 and Romney in 2012.


----------



## sags

Election bits....

Clinton's would have won Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania if she matched Obama's urban votes.


----------



## Nelley

sags said:


> Election bits...
> 
> Trump received fewer votes than McCain in 2008 and Romney in 2012.


JEEZ-thats not fair-have a do over.


----------



## sags

Election bits...

Bridegate convictions of his staff and future legal problems for himself, continue to follow Chris Christie.


----------



## sags

Nelley said:


> JEEZ-thats not fair-have a do over.


Sorry......we already have a comb-over.........and only one "over" is allowed per election.


----------



## SMK

sags said:


> Election bits....
> 
> Clinton's would have won Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania if she matched Obama's urban votes.


You're being annoying with all your election bits every 3 minutes, LOL.


----------



## bass player

In reality, the clueless progressives that are rioting should be thankful that Trump saved them from a Hillary government.


----------



## olivaw

If you're mad at protestors, this might hurt to watch ...


----------



## bass player

Moore is just another lying, egotistical liberal who thinks he knows everything when in fact he knows absolutely nothing. The left has been reduced to trotting out these clueless morons to try to validate their point.


----------



## Nelley

Here is the consensus opinion on Michael Moore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rtqJ3W3g1c


----------



## olivaw

^Michael Moore predicted that Trump would win. I don't know how much he knows, but I know that he knows a lot more than me about the mood in working class USA.


----------



## wraphter

How delusional! Instead of winning the presidency the liberals are reduced to demonstrations and some windbag panting and threatening on television.
Where were all these rioters,excuse me protesters,during the election? How come they didn't bestir themselves to get out
and vote. probably getting high.
Power to the people!
Some people just can't handle the truth.
The winner takes it all,the loser standing small.
Pathetic really.


----------



## SMK

wraphter said:


> Where were all these rioters,excuse me protesters,during the election? How come they didn't bestir themselves to get out and vote. probably getting high.


You mean they were celebrating too early?  They would have made the same mistake most of us did, not predicting Trump could win.


----------



## james4beach

Where were the protestors before the election?

They were being loud and voting! Trump has less than 50% of the popular vote.

And now you're hearing from people who are very concerned about their civil liberties. They were concerned before the election, and they're still concerned now.


----------



## SMK

Not loud enough. Voter turnout was low and one of the reasons Clinton lost.


----------



## bass player

I wonder how long the excuses and blame will last? The Democrats had 95% of the media in their pocket and still couldn't beat a reality TV star because they put forth the most unelectable person in history.

Look in the mirror Democrats...your party is a complete and total failure, and it's 100% your fault. No one had the balls to step up when they did an end run around Sanders. No one had the balls to put forth a different candidate that wasn't being investigated by the FBI. No one had the balls to suggest that no one really likes Hillary.

100% total failure by the Democrats, so they take to the streets and start riots like the morons that they are.


----------



## olivaw

^Are there a significant number of American Democrats on the Canadian Money Forum? If not, who are you talking to?


----------



## wraphter

james4beach said:


> Where were the protestors before the election?
> 
> They were being loud and voting! Trump has less than 50% of the popular vote.
> 
> And now you're hearing from people who are very concerned about their civil liberties. They were concerned before the election, and they're still concerned now.


Unfortunately,james, Clinton did not get out her base in states she was favoured to win.




wraphter said:


> If the youth vote and Blacks had turned out in greater numbers in Pennsylvania,Michigan and Wisconsin for Clinton maybe they wouldn't now
> be marching in the streets.
> 
> How Clinton lost 'blue wall' states of Mich., Pa., Wis.





> It was Hillary Clinton’s “blue wall” — three Great Lakes battlegrounds that Republicans had banged their heads against for years.
> 
> But Donald Trump stormed the blue wall Tuesday, parlaying victories in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania into the presidency.
> 
> Trump did it on a tide of votes from rural and blue-collar whites.
> 
> *But he was helped by Clinton’s neglect of the region and her failure to fully mobilize her party’s own base, including young voters and African-Americans.*
> 
> “Donald Trump brought a new calculation, a new way of winning (these states), but part of that was her colossal failure,” said GOP pollster Gene Ulm. “She did not turn out and galvanize the Obama coalition.”
> 
> In Wisconsin, where Clinton didn’t make a single stop during the general election campaign, she won voters under 30 by just 4 points. Obama won them by 23 points four years ago. The state voted Republican for the first time since 1984.
> 
> “The vote among younger voters dropped off appreciably” for Clinton, said Tom Holbrook, political scientist for the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.
> 
> Clinton’s margin in the ultra-blue city of Milwaukee was 27,000 votes smaller than Obama’s. That was roughly the size of her statewide defeat.
> 
> While Clinton may not have put a ton of resources into Wisconsin, her campaign peppered Michigan with visits by her and her surrogates during the final weeks.
> 
> 
> n Michigan, Trump outperformed Romney, a native Michigander, in blue-collar Macomb County, known as the home of the Reagan Democrat. He outpaced Clinton in other regions of the state, vowing to secure America’s borders and return Michigan to its manufacturing heyday.* Her share of the vote in Wayne County, home to Detroit, was 6 percentage points lower than Obama’s. Michigan went Republican for the first time since 1988.*
> 
> ........
> 
> In Pennsylvania, exit polls measured the African-American vote at 13% of the electorate in 2012, but 10% in 2016. Again, Clinton did not turn out her base of support in the volume needed to hold back Trump.
> 
> ..........
> 
> “From what I saw, a lot of African Americans did not go out to vote,” said Wilfred Blackmon, 70, president of a residents group of 3,000 homes on Detroit’s blue-collar northwest side. Blackmon, a Clinton supporter, said he’d voted in every election since he was 18. Yet, a few weeks ago, Blackmon heard Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan on the radio.
> 
> *Farrakhan “was disenchanted with Hillary. He went back to the days of Bill Clinton and the increased incarceration of black people,” Blackmon said, adding: “A lot of people listen to him.”*


----------



## olivaw

*NATURE: Donald Trump's US election win stuns scientists*



> “Trump will be the first anti-science president we have ever had,” says Michael Lubell, director of public affairs for the American Physical Society in Washington DC. “The consequences are going to be very, very severe.”
> 
> Trump has questioned the science underlying climate change — at one point suggesting that it was a Chinese hoax — and pledged to pull the United States out of the Paris climate agreement.


----------



## bass player

Nature...now they spout left wing global warming propaganda.

Yup...the consequence will be severe. People who have fudged data, lied, and have predicted doom and gloom based on unproven computer models will have heir funding cut off. And it couldn't happen at a better time. Follow the money...there are a lot of people whose entire pay cheque relies on their being dangerous man-made warming. Of course they are scared that the tap will be turned off.


----------



## SMK

They will all move to Canada. Since Trudeau's win, there have been tons of new well paid jobs at the Ministry of Environment *and Climate Change.* Program Advisors, Climate Change Policy Advisors, Senior Advisors and lots of other openings.


----------



## sags

Give Trump a chance.

He is already backing away from repealing Obamacare.

Trump took over the Republican Party. Maybe now he is going to trash their agenda.

More to come..........


----------



## olivaw

^might happen but Ryan and McConnell have bills ready to go on day one. Trump would need to walk back his campaign promises and veto the slew of GOP bills.


----------



## sags

The fractious and split Republican members and lobby groups are already arguing over whose "agenda" Trump should follow.

It is like Trump won the Powerball Lottery and now everyone wants to tell him how he should spend the money.

Wall or no wall. Repeal Obamacare or keep Obamacare and make changes to it. 

It is easy to say you are going to do something, but when it gets down the nuts and bolts......it is a lot more difficult to keep a very diverse group happy. A Republican Senator in a rural area may be in favor of relaxed gun laws while a Republican Senator in an urban area wants to ban some guns. 

The Republicans lost a couple of seats in both the Senate and Congress. They have a small majority in both. All it takes is 4 or 5 Republicans to vote against something to have it defeated. Alternatively a few Democrats may support a bill presented by the Republicans. 

As the old adage goes......it's complicated.

Trump will have to get used to putting a piece of legislation into the political machine at one end and having it come out the other end barely resembling the piece he put in.....amendments, amendments to amendments.........

Ryan and McConnell will have their hands full just keeping their own leadership roles intact. They made some enemies.

They can present bills they hope will pass, but there is no guarantee they will.

As Rudy Guiliani says he recommended to Trump......go easy at first and see what can be done without a big fight.


----------



## new dog

Sags hopefully Trump can fix Obamacare now that he is in. It was not Obamas fault it went the way it did so maybe Trump can fix it. I know people will say Obama had a choice or whatever but here we are and maybe something can now be done about it. I should add that the TPP won't go forward in the US as it looks which is great for everybody including Canada.


----------



## olivaw

Trump won't govern the way he campaigned and the GOP can't get their sh-t together?


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## sags

To be fair, it appears the Democrats are also suffering a vacuum in leadership and a tug of war has already begun.

The difference is they aren't in power and nobody cares about them right now.


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## sags

olivaw said:


> Trump won't govern the way he campaigned and the GOP can't get their sh-t together?


I don't think it is possible for Trump to fulfill all his promises. It would bankrupt the US.

The US has a budget deficit already. They have a looming Social Security crisis and Trump wants to increase spending for the military.

While he increases all this spending, including building a wall and subsidizing Obamacare for high risk people, he wants to reduce taxes.

I think most CMFers would agree that combination just doesn't work out well.


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## olivaw

^fair eenough.

Trump is so much of an unknown. I think it has a lot of young people scared.


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## sags

And there is the $1 Trillion dollar 10 year infrastructure spending proposed by Trump, that Republican lobby groups aren't particularly thrilled about, but Democrats and unions think is a great idea.

_"Conservatives do not view infrastructure spending as an economic stimulus, and congressional Republicans rightly rejected that approach in 2009,” said Holler, whose group is the political arm of The Heritage Foundation._

Trump told the Wall Street Journal and in an interview that will be aired on 60 minutes that he favors keeping popular portions of Obamacare. He also said he would "reach out" to President Obama and Bill Clinton for advice and said he appreciated Hillary Clinton's concession phone call. He understands how hard emotionally it was for her.

It looks like the Trumps and Clintons may be able to mend fences and become good friends again.

And the wall........sources say the plan is to scale back the wall to a bit of additional fencing and increasing the number of border guards who belong to a union who supported Trump. That might be something Democrats could support.

Trump's revised agenda is starting to look more liberal than Hillary Clintons.


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## Eclectic12

olivaw said:


> sags said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... He is already backing away from repealing Obamacare.
> 
> 
> 
> ^might happen but Ryan and McConnell have bills ready to go on day one ...
Click to expand...

I doubt it ... what's in a back away from something that is relatively easy to do for Trump?
Nothing I can see.




sags said:


> The fractious and split Republican members and lobby groups are already arguing over whose "agenda" Trump should follow ...
> It is easy to say you are going to do something, but when it gets down the nuts and bolts......it is a lot more difficult to keep a very diverse group happy ...


Aren't you selling the guy who has mastered the deal short?

Isn't this sort of wrangling then an agreement supposed to be his forte?




sags said:


> ... More to come ...


True .... 


Cheers


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## sags

Trump can't repeal Obamacare without replacing it with something else. It would leave 20 million Americans with no health care at all.

I can see it now, a patient being wheeled into surgery and an accountant running down the hallway waving his arms........

"Stop, stop........cancel the operation. Trump repealed his health care an hour ago".

View attachment 12954


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## andrewf

He definitely could. And Congress will want him to.


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## jargey3000

Glad someone resurrected this thread - about the 2016 election!
Ahem, ...see post #26 above (on page 2) dated April 29, 2016🕵🏼‍♀️


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## MrMatt

Don't worry, Trump will win again.
Creepy "You're not black" Joe Biden is pretty brutal.


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## Beaver101

^ If Trump wins, then Freeland will become next PM.


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