# Buying Florida real estate - any experience?



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

As another NL winter grinds on ... currently -2, another 10cm snow expected tonite, my thoughts are once again turning to spending more time in "the Sunshine State"! We're toying with the idea of buying a place - not a house, maybe a condo or a place in a mobile home park. I'm guessing the mobile home would be the cheaper option? Would appreciate any input from anyone who has maybe gone this route, and any comments - pro or con. We're quite familiar with the Gulf Coast area ( St. Pete / Clearwater) and if we did take the plunge, it would likely be in this area. Any suggestions re market pricing, where to look, where to get some good advice etc. ? Thanks all......Now where'd I put my snow shovel ? ....


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Just make sure you locate at a higher elevation than circa sea level. Most of southern FL will be flooded by 2050....and will have hurricane related flooding well before then.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Just make sure you locate at a higher elevation than circa sea level. Most of southern FL will be flooded by 2050....and will have hurricane related flooding well before then.


haha... thanks for the encouragement! :biggrin:


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jargey3000 said:


> haha... thanks for the encouragement! :biggrin:


Thought I'd be helpful. :cower:

Seriously though, if one is going to own RE along any coastline, it will only take a 'mood swing' of the herd mentality to cause coastal RE prices to plummet. When that will happen, no one knows. But sea levels are rising and coastal devastation is going to happen, perhaps sooner than most think. At some point, the US taxpayer overall is NOT going to stand by and fund the hundreds of billions (trillions?) required to build seawalls, repair beaches, etc, etc.

P.S. My spouse watches that idiotic HGTV channel with those programs talking about island living or waterfront properties. When she says...isn't that nice.... I ask her if it is what she sees now that she likes or that vision of the getaway boat tied up at the front door to get to the supermarket some years in the future.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Remember as a non-resident, your realty taxes will be much higher than shown on the listing for Florida residents. 
Look into costs like insurance carefully. There may be additional costs to have your property inspected weekly or so when you are not there although some parks will do this for you. 

Ensure you are familiar with the 183 day sojourner rules so you don't run afoul of US tax authorities. As well as Florida and USA estate rules. As well...
There are all kinds of issues if you want to do any diy repairs, or if you want to rent the property to someone when you are not there.
I won't expand on this as I assume this is not your intent.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^

Where one is planning on going every years, the number that gets thrown around at 183 becomes a much smaller number of around 120 or so. Then too, with Canada and the US sharing entry/exit info, the day trips that people living near the border did not have to worry about are likely to be included.
https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Substantial-Presence-Test

Now there is a form that can claim tax treaty rights but one also needs to pay attention to the provincial health care limits as well.


Some links ...
http://www.moneysense.ca/vacation/estate-planning-tips-for-u-s-vacation-homes/
http://helpingcanadiansbuyfloridarealestate.com/
http://www.olgafowell.com/4a_custpage_98422.html
https://www.desjardins.com/ca/co-op...ngs-investment/condo-florida-watch-out-taxes/


Depending on where you are ... there can also be interesting details. 

My parents had a Clearwater Florida mailing address so they happily showed up at the Clearwater library to get a free library card. They were taken aback then had to scramble when the staff asked "what lot number?" It turns out their lot number was on the wrong side of a creek that is the dividing line between Clearwater and Dunedin. The library staff said they'd appreciate the $50 US per year to get a card but that the free on from the Dunedin library was the cheaper choice.


Cheers


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I have family who bought modular homes in parks , the overhead is about $10,000 a year and they paid cash.Personally I would just rent and explore different areas ,it may get boring going same place year after year.I think even a month or 2 away from Winter would be enough for me .


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

marina628 said:


> I think even a month or 2 away from Winter would be enough for me .


Our friends rented a villa in the Panhandle for a month and then a condo in Delray for another month. This year they rented a condo for 2 months in PV. Next year they are doing 2 months downtown and a month at the marina. They own their home in The Beach and have a Hunter 46 in a marina in Midland. They can afford such flexibility.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Understand the tax laws. Get a clear understanding of what the property tax will be AFTER ownership changes to you. Also understand the insurance costs.

When we were looking at buying (we did not) the first thing our accountant said was talk to me BEFORE you buy in order to structure the sale properly and to be aware of the potential tax consequences of not doing it right. It seems to me that I bought a book on this very subject but it is long gone now.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

We rented a condo in Florida for 2 weeks in March ,it was a ncie break from Winter ,still have a 13 year old in school so limited on our travel .My niece just died this year and she and her husband own a home in Florida , he has decided to do nothing with the title or notify them she has passed for now.Not sure what if any tax implications are in that case.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

marina628 said:


> I have family who bought modular homes in parks , the overhead is about $10,000 a year and they paid cash.Personally I would just rent and explore different areas ,it may get boring going same place year after year.I think even a month or 2 away from Winter would be enough for me .


+1

Renting just seems so much easier.

$10k would easily cover 2 months South after flights are paid for, no?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

marina628 said:


> ... My niece just died this year and she and her husband own a home in Florida , he has decided to do nothing with the title or notify them she has passed for now.Not sure what if any tax implications are in that case.


I'm not sure what two names on the title does ... but from one of the link in post # 6:


> Prorate your estate (the taxman will)
> 
> A lot is written about the US$5.43 million exemption. This is the threshold for deciding whether or not your entire estate—Canadian property, stocks and everything else you own—is fully taxable by the IRS or not. The simple statement is that any Canadian who’s entire estate is worth less than the threshold is exempt from having to pay U.S. taxes on their entire estate (although you’d still have to pay capital gains tax if you sold your U.S. property).
> 
> But this isn’t actually true. The exemption does exist, but the threshold applies to U.S. citizens or U.S. residents. For a Canadian living in Canada and owning a vacation home in the United States, you do not get the full $5.43 million exemption. You get a prorated amount. In fact, *any Canadian that dies with U.S. assets that are worth US$60,000 or more must file a tax return with the IRS.*


The article walks through how the IRS prorates the exemption.

There is also this ...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...to-the-perils-of-real-estate/article14534720/


Cheers

Cheers


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Agreed that a US tax return must be filed for the year of death for US assets exceeding US$60000 (within 9 months of death). Doesn't mean that US estate taxes are due though. The following articles are good reading

https://www.pwc.com/ca/en/tax-insig...date-us-tax-exposure-canadians-2015-12-en.pdf

http://www.bdo.ca/en/Library/Servic...letins/US-Estate-Tax-Issues-for-Canadians.pdf

Added: The only way i would purchase US real estate would be through a trust set up specifically for that purchase.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

marina628 said:


> My niece just died this year and she and her husband own a home in Florida , he has decided to do nothing with the title or notify them she has passed for now.Not sure what if any tax implications are in that case.


If it is anything like Texas, estate taxes for resident aliens will kick in. Best to contact a US lawyer to verify. (We rejected the US when we retired because resident aliens are not represented in the government so the laws are capricious!)


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> Thought I'd be helpful. :cower:
> 
> Seriously though, if one is going to own RE along any coastline, it will only take a 'mood swing' of the herd mentality to cause coastal RE prices to plummet. When that will happen, no one knows. But sea levels are rising and coastal devastation is going to happen, perhaps sooner than most think. At some point, the US taxpayer overall is NOT going to stand by and fund the hundreds of billions (trillions?) required to build seawalls, repair beaches, etc, etc.
> 
> P.S. My spouse watches that idiotic HGTV channel with those programs talking about island living or waterfront properties. When she says...isn't that nice.... I ask her if it is what she sees now that she likes or that vision of the getaway boat tied up at the front door to get to the supermarket some years in the future.


No reason for coastal RE prices to plummet where the land is high above the water and the shoreline is solid rock, hence not subject to being eroded away.

Where prices will plummet will be in any low-lying area, regardless of how many miles from the sea. Some scientists believe all the world's ice cover will melt and seas with rise 216 feet. I expect the next few decades will see a more modest rise of 50-75 feet. As AltaRed suggests, probably coming sooner than most expect. Even that more limited rise will wipe out more than a few expensive homes in Vancouver, not including such close-to-the-water addresses as Point Grey Road. 

We live on oceanfront acreage. Quite a bit of it is over 200 feet in elevation, 285 feet being the highest. We might have to take apart and rebuild on higher ground (this house was built offsite and put together here, so the process can be done again).

As for Florida, most of the state is likely going to disappear, no matter what. So those holding mortgaged Florida real estate will know what it means to be "underwater". It might not be all bad. New york, New Orleans, Boston, Portland and quite a few other places will be no better off and the people will have to live somewhere. Owning a Florida water lot as a place to keep a houseboat might not be a bad fallback position.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> Where prices will plummet will be in any low-lying area, regardless of how many miles from the sea. Some scientists believe all the world's ice cover will melt and seas with rise 216 feet. I expect the next few decades will see a more modest rise of 50-75 feet. As AltaRed suggests, probably coming sooner than most expect.


I think all of those numbers are alarmist, i.e. some scientists believe it will be only about 30 feet by year 2100. But it will not take much to reek havoc with low lying coastal communities and it is the actual havoc, or the perception of same such as inability to get property insurance, that will cause property values to plummet. Once the stampede starts, it boils over and it is too late to salavage much value and get out. As MP above says, it will be the havoc in the big coastal cities that will change the psyche.


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

My spouse and I thought of buying in Florida a number of years ago. We enjoyed the Clearwater Beach area when on vacation, and looked casually around neighbourhoods in Dunedin.

Several years have gone by, we've since travelled elsewhere, and Florida is definitely off the list. The biggest factor is entanglement in US tax law. We've recently discovered southern Mexico is far less expensive, and far friendlier. The food and surroundings blow Florida out of the water. Southern Mexico also has large Canadian and American expat communities, whether year round, or just wintering.

My personal experience is in the Playacar area (absolutely fantastic). Florida, IMO after Mexican experience, is a fourth rate location. A best friend from high school has lived in PV year round for 20 years, and will never leave.

We have also decided renting is a better financial option than overhead and buying in a hurricane zone.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

RCB said:


> ...My personal experience is in the Playacar area (absolutely fantastic). Florida, IMO after Mexican experience, is a fourth rate location. A best friend from high school has lived in PV year round for 20 years, and will never leave.We have also decided renting is a better financial option than overhead and buying in a hurricane zone.


Playacar as in the Playa Del Carmen area?


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

Yes, just outside the city limits. Part is the Hotel Zone, part is condo/apartments.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

RCB said:


> My spouse and I thought of buying in Florida a number of years ago. We enjoyed the Clearwater Beach area when on vacation, and looked casually around neighbourhoods in Dunedin.
> 
> Several years have gone by, we've since travelled elsewhere, and Florida is definitely off the list. The biggest factor is entanglement in US tax law. We've recently discovered southern Mexico is far less expensive, and far friendlier. The food and surroundings blow Florida out of the water. Southern Mexico also has large Canadian and American expat communities, whether year round, or just wintering.
> 
> ...


Interesting comparison between Florida & mexico.
My only experience with Mexico has been at the "all-inclusive" resorts, where naturally , you don't get a feel for the areas outside.
Mexico's of course more difficult for us east-coasters to travel to & from. And, rightly or wrongly, i have this perception of "mexico" being somewhat more dangerous than "florida", what with the drug gangs, and the odd story you hear about tourists being mugged - or killed (not that it doesn't happen in florida!) ...


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We are from Vancouver and our good friends are from Toronto. There is no difference in direct air travel between home and PV. Same with driving. We have owned here since 2007. Break even is 4 months. We spend 6 months. They have rented in Florida but are now renting in PV for 3 months.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I have run some numbers in the past as well and determined that 3-4 months is breakeven between owning and renting. On that basis alone I would never own, and on the premise I want to experience different places every year or two, ownership is a non-starter (unless heavily into RCI type programs, etc.). By the time I am 75, there is also the increasing likelihood that snowbird health insurance would become prohibitive too.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Florida is not even on our list of places we would consider buying a snowbird retreat. No interest whatsoever. We have travelled throughout the state a number of times. Fine for a few weeks but that is all. We feel the same way about TX, AX, SC, CA. Non starters for us. 

We plan to take a look at PV at some point in the future. Could be a one month 'look see' stop if we decide to spend next winter in Central America.


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