# Ontario Sunshine List 2015 released



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-sunshine-list-2015-released-1.3011758



> A total of 111,438 public sector workers in Ontario were paid more than $100,000 in 2014, according to details included in the so-called Sunshine List released this morning.


Personally, I think 100K *is* too low a threshold. It should probably have been indexed from 1996 dollars and be something like 150K now.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

gardner said:


> Personally, I think 100K *is* too low a threshold.


Why's that, are you on the list? :tongue:


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## CPA Candidate (Dec 15, 2013)

I read this earlier on the G&M, Ontario is such a mess. The natural end point of idealistic social democracy mingled with brain dead environmentalism: bunch of broke, have-nots, with excessive taxes and power costs while entitled government pigs and unions feed at the trough. The average middle class private sector worker is just more flesh for the thresher.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

CPA Candidate said:


> I read this earlier on the G&M, Ontario is such a mess. The natural end point of idealistic social democracy mingled with brain dead environmentalism: bunch of broke, have-nots, with excessive taxes and power costs while entitled government pigs and unions feed at the trough. The average middle class private sector worker is just more flesh for the thresher.


Sure is! The latest "news" was that Wynne is going to subsidize electricity for families with income under $50K (I think it was). These families are projected to save $38/month. The others are expected to lose $0.70/month. So do the math and there are 38/0.7 = ~54 families in Ontario to subsidize every family with income under $50K. I did not realize that the ratio of families over $50K to families under $50 was a whopping 54:1 .. or maybe just some more Liberal nonsense. If I had to pick, I am going to go with nonsense.

Maybe I don't recall the numbers from the newscast correctly, but my instant response was BS.

hboy43


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

You heard that first newscast correctly as that is what I heard as well. They updated it yesterday to $10 a month for those paying.... 70 cents didn't bother me much $10... a lot more.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Scary... but I'm sure BC is not far behind.

100K is still a shitload of money to me...


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

IMO if the average cop in Toronto makes about 91k, it doesn't take much paid duty to be on the list.....what you don't see is the average teacher on the list, who tutors on the side, or has a part time job, as those jobs on the side come from another source, so they don't show up on the list even though they put in extra time and make over 100k.

I agree the threshold of 100k is rather arbitrary, not saying it is not alot of money. 150k would be interesting to see.

It is surprising to see how out of whack IMO some of the higher earners on the list are, considering what they do.


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

CPA Candidate said:


> I read this earlier on the G&M, Ontario is such a mess. The natural end point of idealistic social democracy mingled with brain dead environmentalism: bunch of broke, have-nots, with excessive taxes and power costs while entitled government pigs and unions feed at the trough. The average middle class private sector worker is just more flesh for the thresher.


Pretty much sums it up. The scary thing is that now with 20% working in the public sector and another 10% being "super-managers" in the private sector, these two groups combined have enough power to sway the vote in any election in their own-self interest, which is probably why Kathleen Wynne received a majority vote despite her and the party's record.


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## gt_23 (Jan 18, 2014)

Cal said:


> IMO if the average cop in Toronto makes about 91k, it doesn't take much paid duty to be on the list.....what you don't see is the average teacher on the list, who tutors on the side, or has a part time job, as those jobs on the side come from another source, so they don't show up on the list even though they put in extra time and make over 100k.
> 
> I agree the threshold of 100k is rather arbitrary, not saying it is not alot of money. 150k would be interesting to see.
> 
> It is surprising to see how out of whack IMO some of the higher earners on the list are, considering what they do.


Many cops and firefighters also have jobs on the side, especially in Toronto where they have lots of time off.

What I've always wondered is why Doctor's aren't on the list. Will Ontarians still cherish their health care when it costs 80 cents of every tax dollar and you still have to wait a week for an appointment?


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Jut to note that the list is available in xls format, link at the bottom of the G&M article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/which-public-servants-earn-more-than-100000-search-the-sunshine-list/article17699726/
A handy way to see the 255 LCBO jobs on the list that are providing for us, or the 14,966 university jobs that are educating us, etc.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

The bad part if the ones out of whack. The chief of staff for the premier makes more than the white house chief of staff? 

The Mayor of Ottawa makes 168k?


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

For a little different perspective, and before everyone talks about the adjustment for inflation, the Globe and Mail published such a comparison:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ntarios-sunshine-list/article23666953/#adjust

While there is a steady increase, it is not as big as it may original appear.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

hboy43 said:


> Sure is! The latest "news" was that Wynne is going to subsidize electricity for families with income under $50K (I think it was). These families are projected to save $38/month.


Here's a pdf with some details. You'd have to have 7 people in the $50K household to get $38/month (chart on page 2)

http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/oeb/_Documents/EB-2014-0227/OESP_FAQ_20150326.pdf


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> For a little different perspective, and before everyone talks about the adjustment for inflation, the Globe and Mail published such a comparison:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ntarios-sunshine-list/article23666953/#adjust
> 
> While there is a steady increase, it is not as big as it may original appear.


A little different perspective, huh. It's total BS. 100K is still a boatload of money in anyone's book. You don't hear politicians suggesting... let's adjust the sunshine list for inflation. That would be political suicide right there.

Automatic inflation adjustments are not a God-Given right. Ontario has run massive deficits for years. Ontario debt is soaring. Interest payments consume 10% of tax revenues and growing. Under these circumstances, public payrolls should be completely frozen.

I work for a private company. I received my last inflation adjustment in 2007. Yes you read that right. I earn the same nominal dollars today as I did in 2008. I consider myself lucky that I still have a well-paying job. Many of my friends got laid off in the last few years. My employer's revenue decreased in 2012, 2013 and 2014. It will likely decrease again in 2015. Naturally, they are responding by laying off people and by freezing salaries.

It's only in the la-la-la government land that you get an automatic inflation adjustment each and every year, deficits and debt be damned.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yea, everybody seems to be getting squeezed lately, and it is only the unionized workplaces that have a hope of keeping up.

Companies are cutting hours for low income part timers.............things are that tight.

But people can't be expected to continue to live on 2008 wages, especially if the wages weren't all that high to begin with.

I don't have the answers.........it seems like a Catch 22 situation all over the place.

One thing is certain............as the recent news was about a bank CEO who was given a $500,000 yearly raise to up his salary to $9.9 million a year from $9.4 million, after missing 3 of the 4 business targets he had set for the bank...........the very wealthy are doing better than ever before and the gaps in income and wealth are growing larger.

Corporations like GM are being plagued by militant investors to spend billions buying back stock, instead of settling pension obligations or investing in future product development. The "profits" have been enabled somewhat by the drive to lower wages for entry level workers and significant changes to pensions and benefits. The company is forced into squeezing their employees to give the money away to a militant investor who only wants to sell the shares for a profit.

Something has to change. The status quo isn't working. Easy, cheap credit will come to an end and people will be tapped out.

I am not sure what the changes should/would be or how it should be done though. I think that is the problem.............nobody knows.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

How to bankrupt a province:

285 Ontario librarians make more than 100K.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> How to bankrupt a province:
> 
> 285 Ontario librarians make more than 100K.


I agree that is way over the top.........unless they are working 70 hours a week.


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## Electric (Jul 19, 2013)

I find it curious that Queen's University is reporting that they paid someone $185k in 2014, but the guy left for a job in Australia in January that year. Is it possible that they are reporting what they would have paid him had he stayed?

I find it disturbing that the best jobs in my city are in the public sector. In effect, these people are an über class of worker, with higher salaries, pensions backed by the power of taxation, and little worry of job loss. There is no downside if you can get over the guilt.

I feel quite stupid for taking an engineering job in the private sector. I will leave for work at 06h30 on Monday and mark 40 hours on my timesheet at the end of the week, even though I will work more hours than that. For the following two weeks I will be abroad at a job site. My friend at the public utility will work 35 hours, never has to travel, and makes 30% more than I do with the same qualifications and experience.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Electric said:


> I find it curious that Queen's University is reporting that they paid someone $185k in 2014, but the guy left for a job in Australia in January that year. Is it possible that they are reporting what they would have paid him had he stayed?


Unlikely. I'm guessing it's one or more of the following:

a. unused vacation pay
b. pay for unused sick days
c. severance payments

Note, public sector employees may be entitled to severance payments if when they quit voluntarily.


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## Electric (Jul 19, 2013)

GoldStone said:


> a. unused vacation pay
> b. pay for unused sick days
> c. severance payments


It is conceivable that he left at the start of his sabbatical, I guess, and received two salaries. Nice work if you can get it.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I work for a private company. I received my last inflation adjustment in 2007. Yes you read that right. I earn the same nominal dollars today as I did in 2008. I consider myself lucky that I still have a well-paying job. Many of my friends got laid off in the last few years. My employer's revenue decreased in 2012, 2013 and 2014. It will likely decrease again in 2015. Naturally, they are responding by laying off people and by freezing salaries.


 GoldStone, I think we work for the same private company  . Our revenue also desreases every year...response again by laying off people and outsoursing to India.... the only difference that my last inflation adjustment was 3 years ago ... but they introduced employee premiums for health benefits and decreased coverage... so my net salary even less than 3 years ago.



> Ontario Power Generation CEO Tom Mitchell tops list again with $1.55M salary


 this is ridiculous ...esp when prices going up every year... can you imagine how much he gets severance pay when he leaves?!



> There are about 12,500 employees from OPG, Hydro One and their subsidiaries on the 2014 list, up by nearly 1,000 over 2013, when the auditor general warned those salaries were driving up electricity rates.


 who cares! Mafia rules ON!



> But Wynne said she had "no intention" of raising the threshold, which would rise to $145,000 if it was indexed to inflation, and would reduce the number of names on the list by nearly 83 per cent to just 19,260.
> 
> "One hundred thousand dollars is still a lot of money," she said.


 she is so honest  I don't care if threshold 100K or 150K, just those ridiculous salaries should be cut esp when ON in deep sh%$.
imo, if not Harris, we won;t see this list at all


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My neighbor is a nurse and managed to make that list this year.


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## summer (Jul 7, 2011)

marina628 said:


> My neighbor is a nurse and managed to make that list this year.


I'm a nurse too and many of my co workers made the list. With overtime it's possible.
Interesting though.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is hard to say how many people on the list are working extensive overtime hours.

We worked regularly scheduled overtime for 30 years, because the company said it was cheaper than hiring more bodies.

We had people earning $30 an hour topping the $100,000 mark.........back in 2005.

Shift work premium, regular overtime, stat holiday overtime, extra weeks of vacation paid but not taken, plus some benefits are included as income.

In some areas, the public service is actually saving money with fewer workers earning more............than hiring more workers.

Ten employees costing $100,000 a year in salary and benefits is cheaper than 20 employees costing $60,000 a year.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> We had people earning $30 an hour topping the $100,000 mark.........back in 2005.


 I don't see a problem if nurse with OT gets 100K.... btw, talke to one CRA employee , regular worker, not a manager ....she was getting $150K without any overtime  CRA salary ranges
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/crrs/wrkng/pyrts/menu-eng.html

but when CEO of public company makes 1.5 mil, imho, it's ridiculous


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

sags said:


> It is hard to say how many people on the list are working extension overtime hours.


Many (most?) people on the list are salaried professionals. They are not paid by the hour. In theory, they should not be entitled to overtime pay. Similar private sector positions don't pay overtime.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> Many (most?) people on the list are salaried professionals. They are not paid by the hour. In theory, they should not be entitled to overtime pay. Similar private sector positions don't pay overtime.


Perhaps that is true, but for some reason a lot of the complaints about public service pay are directed at unionized workers, who would predominantly earn an hourly wage. 

To reach an income of $100,000 per year, they would have to receive an hourly rate of pay of $50 an hour for a 2080 hour work year (52 weeks X 40 hours per week). 

I doubt there are many unionized workers earning that kind of hourly wage.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I doubt there are many unionized workers earning that kind of hourly wage.


 I DON'T  also my understanding it's including bonuses


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

jamesbe said:


> You heard that first newscast correctly as that is what I heard as well. They updated it yesterday to $10 a month for those paying.... 70 cents didn't bother me much $10... a lot more.


Thank you. These idiots don't even have the numbers sense to realize when something is obviously incorrect, let alone the numbers sense for more subtle figuring. If only we could elect engineers, mathematicians, accountants et al instead of lawyers.

I was trying to decode my Hydro one bill yesterday to determine the marginal cost of a kWh as I am considering what to do for backup unattended heating as I want to retire my oil furnace (and ever needing replacement tank, and ever needing inspections and "improvements"!). From what I can tell, the information is not quite there, I am missing the meter adjustment multiplier and likely something else as the error between my actual bill and as best I can figure is still about $5 on ~$130.

Anyhow, back to my point, I discovered that they are going to move more of the charges to fixed and reduce variable, so someone like myself that uses way less than average will have another way to subsidize other heavier users. Looks like I can look forward to about another $15/month on top of what was already planned for the next year. Thank you Ontario Liberals.

For anyone whom is interested, the marginal cost for me is $0.14, $0.17 and $0.20 for the three TOD periods respectively. As I am rural, city figures are likely a cent or so under those numbers.

hboy43


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

"What I've always wondered is why Doctor's aren't on the list. Will Ontarians still cherish their health care when it costs 80 cents of every tax dollar and you still have to wait a week for an appointment? "

What doctor only keeps you waiting a week? Around here it's 3 weeks + 45 minutes if you show up on time for your appointment.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "
> 
> What doctor only keeps you waiting a week? Around here it's 3 weeks + 45 minutes if you show up on time for your appointment.


Much less than week  I got bone fracture and went to emergency room in Milton hospital (I was told waiting time less there), I was waiting for "just" 6.5 hours and at the end I was told to come next day, as orthoped didn't work this day at all! And there weren't many people at all, nurses and other staff just walking, chating, laughing ... why not...they are government workers and get salary regardless...
btw, when I came next day, I was told that they lost my X-ray and sent me to a new one.... 
To summarize, OHIP is one big disaster!


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

hboy43 said:


> From what I can tell, the information is not quite there, I am missing the meter adjustment multiplier


They removed that (or moved it I should say) - it's now incorporated in the delivery charge.



> For anyone whom is interested, the marginal cost for me is $0.14, $0.17 and $0.20 for the three TOD periods respectively. As I am rural, city figures are likely a cent or so under those numbers.


My bottom line cost, all tiers combined is $.20 - rural as well.


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "What I've always wondered is why Doctor's aren't on the list. Will Ontarians still cherish their health care when it costs 80 cents of every tax dollar and you still have to wait a week for an appointment? "
> 
> What doctor only keeps you waiting a week? Around here it's 3 weeks + 45 minutes if you show up on time for your appointment.


I've had many a good nap in the waiting room. A 45 minute wait would be short one for me ... even if I'm the *first* appointment of the day! 
Their time is more important than mine obviously. The whole system is designed to make us wait so they don't have to ... even for one minute. What's with the 2nd waiting room? Wait in the main one, and then wait further in the second one?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor said:


> ... To summarize, OHIP is one big disaster!


... then would you care for privatization instead? Just asking, no other inference.


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

I don't know why conversations about saving money in healthcare always become public vs. private discussion. That doesn't fix any of the underlying issues. *Poor communication, poor system from transferring from one professional to another, poorly designed overlapping disciplines, family physicians neutered to the point where they are just a secretary who refers you to the actual doctor that can help you*


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... then would you care for privatization instead? Just asking, no other inference.


It's nothing to do with provatization... As per WHO Canada is on 30th place even though as dper expenditure per capita Canada is on 10th place , US 37th and per expenditure 1st place.... Majority of countries above Canada have public health care (btw, number 1 and 2 , France and Italy ... maybe Canada needs to learn from those countries?! ).
P.S. For long time I lived in Israel who is 2 spots above Canada, and I can withness that Israeli healthcare more efficient and much cheaper...


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

gibor said:


> It's nothing to do with provatization... As per WHO Canada is on 30th place even though as dper expenditure per capita Canada is on 10th place , US 37th and per expenditure 1st place.... Majority of countries above Canada have public health care (btw, number 1 and 2 , France and Italy ... maybe Canada needs to learn from those countries?! ).
> P.S. For long time I lived in Israel who is 2 spots above Canada, and I can withness that Israeli healthcare more efficient and much cheaper...


This is starting to get afar from field, but I have to ask, how is healthcare administrated in Israel compared to Canada?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> This is starting to get afar from field, but I have to ask, how is healthcare administrated in Israel compared to Canada?


The major difference...even though healthcare is public, there are 4 public health insurance entities (it's called KUPAT HOLIM) that provide helth care services.... like OHIP1, OHIP2, OHIP3, OHIP4 ... Any cutizen can sign in any of them, and obviously , more patients one health insurance have , more it charges money from government.... Those 4 health insurances compete with each other... (in Canada nobody cares about quality of service, as except our "famous" OHIP you cannot go anywhere) . So when I was unsatisfied with one of them , I just switched to another one who was provideing faster and better service... If you for example in OHIP1 , you may ask your doctor to go to hospital belong to OHIP2, get referral and those 2 insurances some how manage fees (you don't pay)...
There is no any 3 months waiting period or rule that you should be specific amounts of months in Israel.... If i didn't terminated my health insurance, I can live in Canada 5 years, fly to Israel and get regular treatment...
So, to summurize, even though Israeli health care is public, there is competion among providers....
btw, there are also private clinics, if you want, you can pay money and go there....
P.S. there is no way patient will wait for 6+ hours in emergency ! it's much much faster....


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Doctors are not on the list because most are self employed. They get paid on a piecework basis for their work. They pay their own office and staff costs out of those standard fees.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't know why the media always makes such a big fuss about the fire/cops on the list. Some other things are out of whack IMO, like why does the head of the TTC make roughly double of what our countries biggest city earn?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> why does the head of the TTC make roughly double of what our countries biggest city earn


 maybe because out TTC twice better :biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor said:


> maybe because out TTC twice better :biggrin:


 ... twice better in what? Like continuously jacking up fares and sticking out lizard tongues sucking in taxpayers' fundings? Now don't get me started with coddling the unions bit.... :disgust:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Just remember, when the Harper government talks about the need to reform public pensions, they aren't talking about Stephen Harper's or their public pensions.

As of 2016 he will qualify for a $191,000 per year pension, fully indexed to the cost of living. The average MP pension is a healthy $57,000 per year.

After Mr. Harper refused to expand the CPP, and criticized Ontario's plans to introduce the Ontario Pension Plan, Ontario's Ms. Wynne shot back that Harper's pension was 10X that of the average person. Her acidic response didn't go over well in Ottawa, and Stephen Harper sent Joe Oliver to respond to the critics.

Remember that for years before he became an MP and later the Prime Minister, Harper railed against the "pension pigs"

He wasn't alone. Here is a link to a May 2014 article with his NCC/Reformer colleague who espoused the same anti-pension rhetoric............and who now finds himself struggling to live on $1000 a month retirement income from CPP and OAS. 

He gave an interview for the article. He now believes that Ontario should introduce the OPP.

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/former-reform-colleague-questions-harpers-mp-pension-reforms/

Cutting public wages and pensions ? Problem is that those who have the power to do so.........usually have their little piggy ears deep into the trough themselves.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I expect there to be an increasing large number of MP's resigning at the end of the session.

For many, there is a large financial incentive to retire now. The new pension rules that Harper brought in for MPS are still far too generous. The new program goes into effect in the next session. They will get less and wait longer for it.

What is really interesting about the Reform Party objection to MP's pensions and their PR stunt of dropping a load of loonies from a wheelbarrow is that all of them resigned from the MP pension plan.

Three or four years later, at the behest of the Reform Party leadership, the Cretien Government passed an Order in Council allowing those members to rejoin WITHOUT penalty. Many of those reform member hypocrites are still sitting MP's.

Only ONE Reform MP refused to rejoin the plan....Preston Manning. The rest were clamouring for re-instatement.

Don't recall any of the Reform Party folks highlighting that Order in Council to the public!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Well that is interesting to know.......about the Order in Council and new pension rules.

Maybe that is why so many MPs are announcing they are leaving. One is returning to her job as a police officer. An additional pension opportunity ?

Some of these MPs are going to receive multiple public pensions.

John Baird has done alright since leaving. A director at Barrick Gold, proposed as a director at CN rail, and a financial advisor to a Hong Kong billionaire.

He gets a $100,000 a year pension but can't collect for a few years yet. In the meantime, he will be able to manage nicely.

It isn't just the Tories who are getting the golden pensions. They just happen to be the only party who believe nobody else should have one.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... twice better in what? Like continuously jacking up fares and sticking out lizard tongues sucking in taxpayers' fundings? Now don't get me started with coddling the unions bit.... :disgust:


Beaver, it was sarcasm  I;ve beed in half Europe and know perfectly how "good" TTC is


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ yes gibor and I was responding to the obvious "the better way" NOT!


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