# What I've learned about Mexico, so far



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

I've never been to mexico, beyond the border towns. After a week, this is what we've learned.

- city bus suspensions are made of pots, pans, tin cups, and kitchen utensils

- every Mexican child is given a concrete mixer for their 12th birthday

- Mexican people are among the kindest, most generous, people anywhere

- any business that has high markup and gouging prices is owned by a ******

- prices here are cheaper than where we live in Canada. Not a lot, but enough to make a difference. If where we live in Canada was a coastal paradise, the price difference would be a multiple.

- they seem to have a better grip on humanity and what matters than we do in Canada, although Canada isn't all bad.

- the worse the bus looks, the more crazy the driver


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

It sounds like the Mexican people are very good people in general.

I think the problem down there is the corruption coming from the police, government and cartels. If these guys can somehow be dealt with and Mexicans can have the same sort of democracy and justice as we have then it would truly be a great place.

Mexico city however seems huge and I am not sure what it is like. It doesn't sound very good because of its size and pollution.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

OK I've spent many months in Cabo of the years.

Mexico is the land of opportunity the police, fireman, ambulance people will all take your money and anything else they can get their hands on.

The street vendors, beach vendors charge what they can get away with. I have many friends in Mexico so learned fast where to shop and the best deals were when I was with my friends. If one stayed in a hotel I can see where one would have the impression of price gouging knowing that a 20 minute walk away from them things are much cheaper. 
In the Cabo area I can say that as far as the Mexican people are concerned all ******'s are rich period.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

lol...imo Cabo is a place where tourists are a commodity ready for processing in the the money extraction machine. Sort of like Vegas. I'd recommend forgetting the Cabo area and going up the old highway to La Paz instead, stopping for a few days at La Ribiera, and Los Barriles. At least it will feel like a foreign country.

Mexico's people are the reason to come.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

What I chuckle about is that anyone would try to summarize Mexico, 26 independent states with a great deal of variety, from their experience in one place. The blue-eyed blonde people of Spanish descent would take umbrage with any attempt to generalize about the Mexican people.

Having said that, there is a certain sameness in the coastal vacation destinations, occupied by gringos and populated by lower class Mexican natives. 70% of the visitors come from GDL and DF. The rest are international.

These people are precious. And they are all entrepreneurs because there are no government safety nets.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

TomB19 said:


> - prices here are cheaper than where we live in Canada. Not a lot, but enough to make a difference. If where we live in Canada was a coastal paradise, the price difference would be a multiple.


Where I come from in West Vancouver, PV is 60% cheaper. And that includes travel health insurance for 6 months for 2 seniors. Plus 2 insured cars.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

where exactly are you in Mexico, new dog?


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

My wife and I have visited Mexico many times, but our experience is usually in a fairly sterile environment - resorts, tourist towns, ****** communities etc. The Mexican people seem quite lovely, but we have noticed the same about Costa Ricans, Cubans and many other peoples. For that matter, Americans seem great too. 

The only generalization I will make is that the people in the Dominican Republic are as flirtatious as all get out. :reface-new:


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

olivaw said:


> The only generalization I will make is that the people in the Dominican Republic are as flirtatious as all get out. :reface-new:


olivaw - if you find DR people flirty i'm guessing you haven't been to Jamaica...?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

As Keith suggests, there is great variation among the 26 states of Mexico. Some are downright dangerous, some are benign. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/mexican-states-us-travel-warning-52263785 Traveler beware. 

The Baja peninsula, save for the border area next to California is lovely. As mentioned up thread, La Paz remains reasonably Mexican. Been a long time since I was in La Paz...was back in the late '90s when a group of us 'ran the Baja' in dune buggies (emulating the Baja 500) from Ensenada to Cabo over a period of 6-7 days, visiting a number of villages and towns on both Pacific and Sea of Cortez along the way. Note: I think only Americans call the Sea of Cortex the Gulf of California.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Note: I think only Americans call the Sea of Cortez the Gulf of California.


The Sea of Cortez seems like a lake (much like English Bay), and Guaymas is a great place to experience it. By way of contrast, the Bay of Banderas gets the surf from the Pacific without filter. Many tourists complain about the noise from the surf! The surf constantly rearranges the sand on the beaches.

They both offer warm water suitable for swimming and giving birth to whales.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The media likes to make a lot of to do about nothing when it comes to Mexico. If they printed about every murder in California the paper would be too big to carry. 

Just met some friends this morning at the La Cruz market. They just returned from a year living on their boat in El Salvador. They traveled everywhere by bus/taxi, had a blast that most people will never do because of media scare tactics.

In a way its kinda nice as most areas that get inundated with Americans/Canadians rapidly lose their charm & flavor.

At any rate so far today we've seen 12 whales and a few dolphins...they are thick this year.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Lots of construction in Puerto Vallarta.

I had arranged to speak with a ****** about r-e development, and he was a nice guy and helpful, but I learned more by accident when I walked by a construction site during a lunch break and started a chat with the foreman. He barely spoke English but it was enough.

He went over land claims in more detail than I've read and spoke to costs, timelines, responsibilities. I asked about bribe money. He said, "maybe a little."

This guy took 45m out of his day to chat with me to no advantage for himself.

I've never met such entrepreneurial people. I have a hunch the orient will be similar or more so but we haven't been there, yet.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

TomB19 said:


> He went over land claims in more detail than I've read and spoke to costs, timelines, responsibilities. I asked about bribe money. He said, "maybe a little."
> 
> This guy took 45m out of his day to chat with me to no advantage for himself.
> 
> I've never met such entrepreneurial people. I have a hunch the orient will be similar or more so but we haven't been there, yet.


I had a waiter who we loved try to sell us a property when he knew we were looking. It was a good deal, just not what we wanted.

Now he has his own restaurant. Jorge's Hideaway on Pilitas.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

TomB19 said:


> Lots of construction in Puerto Vallarta.
> 
> I had arranged to speak with a ****** about r-e development, and he was a nice guy and helpful, but I learned more by accident when I walked by a construction site during a lunch break and started a chat with the foreman. He barely spoke English but it was enough.
> 
> ...



tomB i enjoy reading your posts here so much - also others in this thread who live or sojourn in the latin americas - because your views are so fresh & authentic.

please write on - you have fans!


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Tom, are you considering purchasing real estate in Mexico? Condo or detached home?


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## new dog (Jun 21, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> where exactly are you in Mexico, new dog?


I have never been to Mexico but I am interested in Tom's adventures here and what he finds out.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

We made a conscious choice to move heavily into real estate back in 2005. It took some time but we've always been more comfortable with doors on our nest egg.

One of the things about r-e investing is you can do it almost anywhere. We've always planned to leave Saskatchewan. Actually, the plan was to leave a few years ago.

If you can renovate a house in your home town, you can probably renovate a house anywhere.

We have looked at southern California, Aruba, etc. and places with nice weather. Some countries, like Barbados and Spain, impose a foreign buyer tax. That's a deal killer.

The original idea was to go somewhere for the winter, buy a place, renovate somewhat lightly, and sell with enough profit to live for free in a warm place all winter.

Now we are in New territory. We don't need additional income (we live very affordably) but I can't sit on a beach chair for the rest of my life.

I'm not sure where this will go. Maybe nowhere but we look at real estate everywhere we travel.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

TomB19 said:


> If you can renovate a house in your home town, you can probably renovate a house anywhere.
> 
> We have looked at southern California, Aruba, etc. and places with nice weather. Some countries, like Barbados and Spain, impose a foreign buyer tax. That's a deal killer.
> 
> ...



what an ingenious, entrepreneurial idea. 

did you look at less expensive countries like nicaragua & el salvador though. An acquaintance of mine bought a new condo in nicaragua a few years back; evidently building for the snowbird tourist industry was already underway in nica.

don't know the tax regime for foreign-owned business operations in either nica or el salvador. Costa Rica (low or no personal income tax for foreigners) might be another location. My neighbour is currently hibernating in CR, they rent this residence out part-time while in canada or london.

their CR house was constructed a number of years ago by the most important builder in their small pacific coast fishing village. He obviously had great pride of craftsmanship, the house is mostly local teak & it's beautiful.

.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Some countries, like Barbados and Spain, impose a foreign buyer tax. That's a deal killer.


 Why to buy in Spain, if in South Spain you can rent nice condo for 300EUR per month (if you rent for 3 months or more)?! And weather is very nice there 16-20C whole winter.
On Xmas we've been in Roatan (Honduras) and 2 Canadian guys were buying properties there. They said that there is no foreigh buyer tax and houses not very expensive


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

We're at the Irish pub on the malecon. Second floor balcony. Beautiful.

I asked the server if they have to be Irish to work here. He said, "Si, senior."


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Glad you're having a good time ...hope you have time to grab a bus to La Cruz or Sayalita ...bit more Mexican than Irish lol. Take a panga to Yelapa...cool place to spend the day, we sailed there Saturday...only Mexican pubs though.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

The last few days, we've looked at some property.

One fellow from Ottawa has been here for 10 years. He said he is 65 but he looks 45-50. This man appears to be a master flipper. I've been trying to figure out his profit model from things he has shared. As best I can figure out, it's pretty impressive.

He also shared some of the prices for labour and construction work. Unreal.

As I understand it, he wants to open an art gallery so he doesn't plan to do real estate projects full time but, if he wanted to, he certainly could.

Property here varies from ****** prices to crazy cheap. If you go to a realtor, they only show the ****** priced units.

We had dinner with a couple last evening who told us they were considering a place in PV and had toured some new construction on a massive gated site with a golf course. The place was listed in the $325k range and they ended up buying it for $195 on December 28. Apparently, the builder wanted the sale before year end. They we're thinking about it, builder called, $195k, they signed the contract and it was done in 4 hours.

Realtors are obviously trying to hide the flagging properties which are part of an extensive market segment but they can be found for 1/2 of reasonable price, with a little digging. If a person was prepared to invest some time, money, and energy into a Reno, a pretty nice place can be had for $110 in old Town. That nice place would go for over $200k in good shape.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The split between new construction and resales in PV

John Youden had lived in PV for decades.

During the last meltdown, our friends sold their condo for $485k after it had been valued as high as $700k. But they bought another condo for $575k that had been asking $875k. So the cost to upgrade declined from $175k to $90k.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

^Kcowan, you have achieved an ideal retirement. Quick question about living in Mexico: Do you have health insurance that would cover major life threatening setbacks? Is the standard of care that you would receive as good as what we can expect in Canada or would you be required to travel?


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Speaking of chatting with people. I've never spoken with so many strangers in all of my life. Everyone chats and most people are wildly helpful.

I asked someone about local contractors anD he said he knew a guy. The next day, we saw him at the market and he gave me his contractors card. I gave him a call, met him at a job site, and he promised to keep an eye open for a project candidate. He showed me a restaurant he renovated with his group. Looked good to me.

A corpse could network in PV. You just have to open your mouth and you receive the info you want.

I watched a YouTube video in which the presenter said you could show up in PV with one night of hotel and find lodging by asking any 4 strangers on the street. Of course, I ignored it at the time. I've been thinking about that comment. He nailed it. I'm confident he was right.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm not kcowan but I'll offer a response.

There are medical tours here all the time. These tours are designed to impress people into coming, however, they are pretty slick. The equipment and facilities look modern and clean.

My wife is a nurse and she said their equipment is ahead of ours in Regina.

We've not used the healthcare here but insurance is affordable and we hear reports of prices that are ridiculously low, even by Canadian standards.

A woman we had dinner with at a mexpats event crushed her wrist and had a few broken bones, etc. She needed x-rays, a surgeon, etc. Total bill came to $1700 USD. She was a Canadian with no insurance so they just paid it. No big deal.

Another gent from San Diego at the event had a heart episode and needed a bypass. He had us insurance and was going to fly back to the us but ended up staying, having the bypass performed, 3 days in hospital, and paid $3500 USD all in, uninsured. He said that was less than his co-pays would have been in the United States.

There are negative aspects to living here. This is the second world but the benefits are tremendous and it is absolutely no problem to retire here for anyone who can retire in Canada.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

It's early days for a summation but I just came from a nice 4 bed, 4 bath apartment at the marina, it was a little tired but still nice enough for most people, that I'm told rents for $6000 USD per year.

We saw another 2 bed, 2 bath apartment that was renting for $8000 USD per year. 2 years old. The guy who is renting it is the only one who has ever lived there. New. Beautiful. Mountain view. A couple of kilometers from the ocean. Extremely quiet. The price includes water, power, gas (everyone has a gas stove and water heater here).

Unless you need a swank penthouse with panoramic view of the bay and live in help, you could retire here comfortably for $2500 CDN/mo.

You could have a small basket of REITs totalling $400k, move here, and never work again. You could still take the odd vacation from here, too.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

You can also attain residency and join their free health care system. For us we self insure as Alberta Health Care will reimburse us for most costs (at Alberta pre set rates). I can easily afford to have heart attacks here. We cancelled our dental insurance in Alberta...cheap down here , fillings $30, cleaning $25 etc.
I love this country but we've been here too long...moving on in April.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

TomB19 said:


> It's early days for a summation but I just came from a nice 4 bed, 4 bath apartment at the marina, it was a little tired but still nice enough for most people, that I'm told rents for $6000 USD per year.
> 
> We saw another 2 bed, 2 bath apartment that was renting for $8000 USD per year. 2 years old. The guy who is renting it is the only one who has ever lived there. New. Beautiful. Mountain view. A couple of kilometers from the ocean. Extremely quiet. The price includes water, power, gas (everyone has a gas stove and water heater here).
> 
> ...


There are plenty of places to rent cheap one of the reasons is that to leave a place empty means its going to be robbed of any and everything including the pipes and wiring. I kid you not, I know several people that rent wonderful places near towns for two to three hundred a month.All developments have security in condo projects but away from them its different.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

olivaw said:


> ^Kcowan, you have achieved an ideal retirement. Quick question about living in Mexico: Do you have health insurance that would cover major life threatening setbacks? Is the standard of care that you would receive as good as what we can expect in Canada or would you be required to travel?


I purchase travel insurance. It has a clause that reserves the right to fly me to the nearest center if it is cheaper. That had never happened.

Quality of care is equal to or better than Canada. The doctors give me their cell phone numbers. In one instance, the doctor met me at the nearby hospital on Sunday in 20 minutes after I called him.

There are local coverage programs for full-time residents, but they do not apply to snowbirds.

(There are people who live here full time but return to Canada/US when they need to.)


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> You can also attain residency and join their free health care system...


It is not free but it IS under 400 pesos per year. Includes drugs.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Eder said:


> I love this country but we've been here too long...moving on in April.


Where to next, Eder?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> ...All developments have security in condo projects but away from them its different.


Yes when we bought 10 years ago, we considered a SFH but decided on a condo because it would be empty for 6+ months (we did not want to rent it out).


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

TomB19 said:


> Where to next, Eder?


We're hoping to move on to French Polynesia,heard there's a lot of coconuts there as well.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Quality of care is equal to or better than Canada.


 imho , healthcare quality in Canada is overvalued . One time I needed medical attention in Mexico, the doctor spent a lot of time with me ( not like 10 min here in Ontario) and seemed very knowlegable. Next morning he called me and asked how do I feel and if I want to visit him again..... I got really impressed,


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eder said:


> We're hoping to move on to French Polynesia,heard there's a lot of coconuts there as well.


Bora Bora?! Very nice! I'm jelaous!

btw, if I want to rent condo in PV for 1 to 3 months, which websites would you advise?


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

This morning, we went to view a property in conchias chinas. Ocean front. Pool. Spectacular view. About 30 stairs down to the ocean. Pretty amazing.

We aren't in the market but we love touring homes and try to find open houses when we go places.

This house was cut into the hill, just off the highway. The top of the house was level with the highway. Actually, you could drive a car onto the roof from the highway.

The roof was all concrete with about a dozen domes of various sizes. It had been freshly painted white.

When we got there, the realtor was standing on the roof. We introduced ourselves on the roof and I said, "I like the Most Eisley vibe."


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

TomB19 said:


> This morning, we went to view a property in conchias chinas. Ocean front. Pool. Spectacular view. About 30 stairs down to the ocean. Pretty amazing.
> 
> We aren't in the market but we love touring homes and try to find open houses when we go places.
> 
> ...




good thing you're just looking, that house sounds worrisome to me

pollution & falling debris from the highway will be disgusting. Just the sight of that rooftop on the ocean side will be an unconscious trigger to all the folks driving by to open the car window & throw out the plastic pop bottles, etc (bet they don't go in for car litter bags in mexico)

plus if the cliff is that steep, rising sea levels + wave erosion risk to collapse the cliff, taking the house with it. You've seen the pix where this has happened in california.

assuming, that is, that the road itself doesn't collapse down on top of the house first (there's a chance they didn't reinforce the vertical cut just below the highway sufficiently) (roads vibrate from traffic)


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Building down the hillside is an old custom here. It was created by a rule that a building could only be 30 meters above the road. But there was no limit to how low it could go. In our condo, we are one level up but there are 6 stories down. 

What is this notion of throwing garbage from cars? Are you living in the 50s? There are 3 containers that you sort your trash into.

The bottom of the condo that Tom described is probably into bedrock. It is much different than the sandstone cliffs of California. We have some of those but they are further north in the next state.

Google street view will give you a fish's eye view of the shore all the way to Yelapa. Although it is rain forest, there a much lava rock to the south. Also fresh oysters and mussels right there for the taking.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

One of the things we've learned about ourselves in the past couple of years is that we don't want to be isolated. We want culture and night life.

That house is going to be a dream come true for someone. It is a very special dwelling. It just isn't for us.

One of the things I learned from this thread is to not throw bottles and garbage out a high speed car window.

Well, tomorrow is the sailboat races...


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

There are laundry services here that defy physics. My wife tripped on a nasty sidewalk (all sidewalks Are obstacle courses here) and skinned her knee. She ended up getting some blood on a pair of white shorts.

Instead of paying $18 USD to do a load of laundry at the hotel (they give 10 quarters for two loads and some soap for that price), I talked her into using a laundry service three blocks from the hotel.

Her shorts came back looking like brand new. All of our clothes are noticably brighter and cleaner. Everything folded neat as a pin and tied in a nice bundle.

65 pesos. That's just just under 5 bucks for two loads. That's less than we would have paid for two loads at the hotel without soap, if we had brought quarters.

If we lived near this laundry service, we would throw out our laundry team. Lol

On the other hand, we went to Frankie's Spaghetti Factory this evening, a highly regarded restaurant, and it was just ok. We won't bother with it again.

The food here is good but not as good as we thought it would be. We could eat this food every day for the rest of our lives and be happy but we have had better everything elsewhere, including tacos. Still really good, though, and we have a lot more highly rated restaurants to try.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

TomB19 said:


> we have had better everything elsewhere, including tacos.


You haven't been here then 

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Locatio...eet-La_Cruz_de_Huanacaxtle_Pacific_Coast.html

You can thank me later lol.

btw if you watched the races yesterday you probably saw my boat.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

TomB19 said:


> One of the things we've learned about ourselves in the past couple of years is that we don't want to be isolated. We want culture and night life.
> 
> That house is going to be a dream come true for someone. It is a very special dwelling. It just isn't for us.


There are many such dwellings. They appeal to the high pressure worker from NOTB. Not a place to retire to. We have friend who bought such a place, and every day they come to town. Sometimes twice because it is so boring to stay home.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

TomB19 said:


> There are laundry services here that defy physics. My wife tripped on a nasty sidewalk (all sidewalks Are obstacle courses here) and skinned her knee. She ended up getting some blood on a pair of white shorts.
> 
> Instead of paying $18 USD to do a load of laundry at the hotel (they give 10 quarters for two loads and some soap for that price), I talked her into using a laundry service three blocks from the hotel.
> 
> Her shorts came back looking like brand new. All of our clothes are noticeably brighter and cleaner. Everything folded neat as a pin and tied in a nice bundle...


They use the blue magic whitener which contains chemicals that have been banned NOTB for many years. There are some benefits to living in a country with less regulations.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

TomB19 said:


> On the other hand, we went to Frankie's Spaghetti Factory this evening, a highly regarded restaurant, and it was just ok. We won't bother with it again.
> 
> The food here is good but not as good as we thought it would be. We could eat this food every day for the rest of our lives and be happy but we have had better everything elsewhere, including tacos. Still really good, though, and we have a lot more highly rated restaurants to try.


Frankie's is a placing for eating not dining. Italian is the most popular ethnic restaurant here. Tre Piatti is one of our favorites. So is La Dolce Vita.
And Piazetta.

There are 950 restaurants in the greater Vallarta area. Must try places include Barrio Bistro and Bonito Kitchen. La Cigale is also a genuine French place by the cathedral. El Patio de mi Casa is a funky jazz bar. None of these show up as promotions because they don't need to.

Of course there are also a bunch of expensive destination places too. All are excellent but pricey.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

For breakfast, try El Patio on San Salvador. They are still using their menus from when they started and omelettes are still 60 pesos and delicious. Add a fresh fruit smoothie for 25 p and you will leave satisfied.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Thank you for the terrific information, Keith. We will try a few of your suggestions.

We've had a few really good dining experiences, the last couple of days.

El Tuito taco stand was the best tacos we've had here until Tuesday. On tuseday, we tried Las Gueroas. I wouldn't want to judge which taco stand is better. Both are tremendous.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

There are social factors here that I find interesting.

My family aren't huggers. We've never been. I have a couple of friends who hug me and it always feels uncomfortable. I try to pretend it's fine. Lol!

Where I come from, you apologize if you bump into someone.

Here, if you apologize for bumping someone, they won't understand why.

Yesterday, we were on a city bus that was so packed, a young woman breast was pressed into my shoulder for about 10 minutes. No big deal here.

If the bus is full and there is no room to board, they take a run at it.

I enjoy the communal nature of this society. Everyone speaks with everyone and the exchanges are warm and empathetic.


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

I've considered whether I should comment on the women here and, after considerable deliberation, decided in favor of it. This post is not intended to be disrespectful.

Mexican women are mucho caliante. Ive considered this and feel I have some progress to share.

I've thought about how beautiful the women are here and if they are more beautiful than in other countries I've been to. I think they are not inherently more beautiful, despite being so. There are beautiful women everywhere.

There are two factors that seem to apply. First, there is a shortage of material, particularly ladies denim. They consume fabric with the utmost respect for the environment.

Second, everyone is so relaxed here. People carry themselves with Grace and dignity. More than that, everyone seems happy.

We took the bus through the tunnels to some poor neighborhoods and my wife was horrified by the conditions. The thing is, the people living in such humble conditions are happier than we are.

Children seem happier. Everyone seems comfortable. I have come to the conclusion there is more love here and that makes everyone more attractive and compelling to be with.

Viva Mexico.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

^^^^
no disrespect to anyone of course, but I think, generally speaking, Mexicans & newfoundlanders might get along just fine..... 
"No problema, b'y"


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Not sure who is the original source but I've always liked this story.

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life.”

The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then Los Angeles and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

“Millions – then what?”

The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

There are 2 guys with canoes that operate off the beach at Lindo Mar south of town. One has a mask and dives for oysters and mussels. After 4 hours, he returns and sells his catch to other Mexicans on the beach. The other guy catches fish with his rudimentary lines and stays out for a couple of extra hours. Then he cleans them on the beach and also sells them to locals. He attracts some regular pelicans who rely on the entrails for their meal that day.

Entrepreneurs with very little investment. That kind of story is repeated often in PV.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

One of the things I'm most surprised at is how much our perspective has changed during the time we've been in Mexico.

- Week 1: A bit shocked by poverty in the PV area
- Week 2: Starting to notice some positive things about PV and the people who live there
- Week 3: Just starting to see past the concrete furniture and ghetto level civic services to see the beauty of both the country and the Mexican people
- Week 4: Barely notice the primitive services and really falling in love with Mexico, it's people, and it's way of life


Here are some things that dominate our thoughts, at the moment.

- Family units often stay together. At some of the businesses, you can see three generations working together and they seem extremely comfortable and happy. They seem to be generally more respectful of family members than we are here.
- PV people seem significantly happier, generally, than Canadians in Canada.
- Children are everywhere and they are universally and astonishingly well behaved. Mexican children make Canadian children seem like cocaine crazed monkeys.
- The general civility and positive energy of public interactions is refreshingly civilized.
- Meeting new people in PV is effortless and happens constantly in a positive way.
- Money comes to Puerto Vallarta in the form of tourism. There is no other visible source of revenue for the area.
- Costal cities in the area from Boca to Sayulita are slight varations on the same elements.
- Costs vary wildly with "****** rates" being prominent but avoidable, in most cases. Mostly, ****** rates are set by gringos trying to milk the tourism industry but most of the local Mexicans also apply a premium to tourists.


We have been extremely happy in PV. Three years ago, we spent several weeks in Vancouver and Victoria during the coldest months and loved it. We were just as happy wintering on the BC coast as we were in PV.

During our stay in PV, we met dozens of people from BC. It was interesting how much they complained about BC. A few of them complained bitterly about the winter rain and gloom. One 80 year old man we met at an ice cream stand spooled up a pretty stellar rant on his view of injustice in Victoria. His crabbing covered high taxation and high cost of getting anything done. When queried, he indicated unequivocally that, despite having sufficient financial means to live any number of places, he has no plans to ever leave Victoria.


Perhaps the primary take away for me is that any given geographical area provides the building blocks of life and leaves life construction up to the individual. The more flexible and creative a person is, the better life a person will make for themselves.

Mexico is a poor substitute for Canada. It is missing some components Canada has while also bringing benefits Canada lacks.

We left with a clear understanding that we can build an excellent retired life in Mexico. We also left with a more clear understanding that we can also build an excellent retired life in Canada and other places.

One of the things Mexico brings is novelty. This is a significant benefit. After watching a particular set of lights flash in a particular sequence for half a century, it would be refreshing to watch a new set of lights flash in a different order. There is something stimulating about change that is a powerful tool on the road to self awareness.


I created this thread mostly because I thought it would be good for a few laughs. Thanks to kcowan, Eder, AltaRed, and Daniel A. for adding some terrific content to my dyslexic musings.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Real Estate.

I decided to break out real estate into a separate post. It seems to be a point of interest for some.

In the past month, I've spoken with quite a few people about real estate and have come away with a view that is significantly more clear than my view prior to going in person to Puerto Vallarta. What people tell you and reality seem to be entirely distinct.

There are countless Canadian/American realtors who will go out of their way to explain the "myth of great r-e and rental prices that propagate on the Internet." They make out as though this mis-information is the bane of their existence.

One lady, in particular, had units priced from $1800~11000 USD per month, when rented for a minimum of four months. This 50+ lady told us a lot about her life trajectory. They left Arizona 9 years ago, feeling they were working too hard to barely scrape by. They had a lot of debt and a nice house but weren't getting ahead, had no investments other than a small amount of equity in their home. Later in the evening, when discussing rentals, she revealed they own 15 rental units and manage a total of 60 units. Her husband organizes repairs and maintenance. Their children go to the best private school which includes frequent field trips to Europe and other places. She was driving a new looking ML350. Somehow, despite the poor R-E market and depressed local economy, they amassed tremendous wealth and lifestyle in the last 9 years.

The owners of our 30 unit hotel are Canadian. They seem humble and had a barbeque for guests in which they presented a nice story about their humble little life in Mexico. A little digging on the Internet revealed the hotel is owned by a Mexican corporation which is owned by our lovely host couple. Further digging reveals their corporation owns a ton of real estate in the area with several properties in Punta de Mita (expensive, somewhat exclusive, part of Banderas Bay), and many dozens in other parts of Banderas Bay. A quick and conservative guestimate of value for their hotels and properties leads me to believe their company manages between $30~45M USD worth of real estate. They moved to PV in 1970, so they have had significant time to amass their wealth.

One of the private home sales we viewed was a condo owned by a 60 year old man from Ottawa who looks 40. Everything in the house was bespoke and beautifully done. He has lived in PV full time for four years, after leaving Canada due to cost of living and lack of path to retirement. He was a renter in Canada. His first property was purchased three years ago in PV. His goal is to sell one of his units and create an art studio. He has two units listed for sale and two more rented. Given his remodelling, design, and decorating skills, he could have an amazing life anywhere. He said these two properties were his first renovations. Together with his natural sales ability, he is going to have a stellar life in PV for as long as he wants.

This pattern emerges over and over. People will tell you how expensive real estate is in PV and how difficult and expensive it is to obtain permits and have work done, and yet things are happening at a pretty good pace and Mexpats are making considerable money on property. This, when Mexican property transactions have been cash only, until very recently.

A retired engineer we met at an expats dinner told us the average Mexican earns between 80~100 pesos per day. That's $6~7 CDN. Local Mexicans have told us that's a bit on the high side. An Uber driver told us he doesn't make a lot more than that and he makes more than the rest of his family combined and works 14 hour days.

I see way more R-E opportunity in PV than I do in Canada. There's nothing wrong with our R-E market but PV has a significant inventory of bombed out concrete shells with a massive labour force that will work pretty hard for $10 CDN/day. Many of those concrete shells can be spruced up to par condition by a couple of guys in a few weeks. A couple of the local guys I spoke with didn't even have concrete mixers. Most of them mix concrete on the ground with a shovel. The level of concrete skill in PV is amazing. If I were a younger and more hungry man, I would look at building an empire in the PV area.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Perhaps I should temper the previous posts with some comparative thoughts.

Lots of folks on this site go out of their way to condemn real estate investing and declare it a loser. OK, but there are endless case studies disproving this point of view. Real estate can be a loser, just as it can be a winner. Not everyone makes money. Not everyone has the skills to do well in real estate.

I consider the negative R-E criticisms to be as obnoxious as someone who has purchased a stock or two, lost money, and gone on a mission to explain to the world that stocks are a money losing venture.

Still, most people don't belong in R-E investing so discouraging it is a positive endeavour, IMO. It's not as easy as most seem to believe.

So, a great deal of money can and has been made in real estate in both Canada and the PV area. Here are my initial thoughts on how they compare.

- It takes competence to do well in either place. There are no guarantees of making money in R-E.
- In PV, it seems possible to make money without using mortgage leverage like we enjoy in Canada.
- In PV, the risk seems to be lower because the price of purchase and renovation is lower.
- In PV, units are made of concrete with tile floors. The finishes are a lot more practical to stand up to rental use, also reducing risk.
- R-E investing is not a get-rich-quick scheme. It takes time and is considerable work. It comes down to where do you want to live your life while R-E generates wealth. If your heart is in PV and you have the skills, R-E seems to be a possible revenue stream.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

When I hear of a tremendous opportunity in another country........bar on the beach, moped rental service, motel or inn.........I ask myself why the locals aren't doing it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It should also be noted there is an high risk travel advisory issued for Mexico

https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/mexico


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> One of the things I'm most surprised at is how much our perspective has changed during the time we've been in Mexico.
> 
> - Week 1: A bit shocked by poverty in the PV area
> - Week 2: Starting to notice some positive things about PV and the people who live there
> ...


We go through a similar transition twice a year. When we arrive, we have to get used to bad roads and incomplete buildings and air pollution. But we look forward to meeting our friends from across the US and Canada again. Plus every year, we make new friends. By April, friends are heading north or inland or to travel and we look forward to the orderly world of Canada.

We do not have Mexicans among our good friends with a couple of exceptions. But we get along with them just fine. We love to see the families out enjoying life and not staring at their smartphones.


TomB16 said:


> During our stay in PV, we met dozens of people from BC. It was interesting how much they complained about BC. A few of them complained bitterly about the winter rain and gloom. One 80 year old man we met at an ice cream stand spooled up a pretty stellar rant on his view of injustice in Victoria. His crabbing covered high taxation and high cost of getting anything done. When queried, he indicated unequivocally that, despite having sufficient financial means to live any number of places, he has no plans to ever leave Victoria.


We escaped from Ontario to BC in 1995. When working it is a fabulous place. But when retired, the long dreary and wet weather affects us, limiting outdoor activities and outlook. Once MIL passed on, there was no strong hold on us.


TomB16 said:


> Real Estate.
> 
> I decided to break out real estate into a separate post. It seems to be a point of interest for some.
> 
> ...


There are as many stories as there are neighbourhoods. All RE is local. And much of it changes hands without being listed. Taxes can be onerous if one is honest: Hotel tax on rentals (3%) as well as IVA (16%) and income tax on capital gains (25% to 30%). In addition, there are property management fees (20%) for absentee owners, and crazy HOA rules for occupants.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A woman from Ottawa was horribly beaten while on vacation in the Yucatan, required significant surgery
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/mexico-attack-ottawa-woman-resort-1.5363640

Can someone help me understand the type of crime? There have been other cases of tourists being violently beaten in both Mexico and the Dominican Republic but I never understood the motives of the attackers.

I suppose it could be a robbery or rape attempt. Is that what's going on?


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

She checked in by herself and went to get snacks at 2am ,these people who work or have access to the resort just look for opportunities.Rule number 1 never go alone...The link you posted does not mention about her going for snacks at 2am but that was on the new earlier in the week.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Big resorts are a meeting place of transients who come to stay awhile (the guests) and the workers who come from surrounding areas every day. Technically there is more safety risk at a resort than a small village where most people know each other.

I agree with Marina that it is insane for someone (especially a female) to walk alone at night on the sometimes dark paths with lots of vegetation around if there is no significant physical security presence monitoring the grounds. Could be just as likely to be another guest looking for opportunity than actually a staff member.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

I have a few Mexican friends and colleagues who are very nice people. But when it comes to vacationing or retiring in Mexico, I personally cannot get past the crime issue. The beaches are sunny and picturesque but the lack of security and high crime rate (whether happening to expats or Mexicans) makes it a less desirable place for me to travel to. The whole idea of vacationing is relaxation and peace of mind (AKA not seeing my boss' face).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

marina628 said:


> She checked in by herself and went to get snacks at 2am ,these people who work or have access to the resort just look for opportunities.Rule number 1 never go alone...The link you posted does not mention about her going for snacks at 2am but that was on the new earlier in the week.


I'm still trying to understand the nature of the attack itself. Are there people who go around wanting to savagely beat others for sport? Is that the motivation... just to beat up a woman for the hell of it?

After thinking about this for a moment I remembered that this happens in the US & Canada too. For example, unprovoked savage beatings and killings of homeless people
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/home...ht-the-perils-of-life-on-the-street-1.3055409
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/06/suspect-killing-four-homeless-men-new-york

There's something in common with the Mexico attack. These are vicious attacks on "easy" targets... people who won't present much of a challenge.

Off topic, but those attacks on the homeless are why I saw many homeless people in the US carrying weapons with them. Machetes and knives. They need to defend themselves (or show a deterrent) to the lunatics who might try to prey on them.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...the story i neard was that she me 2 other couples there on her first night....and then later in the night one of these guys came to her door because he said he thought he heard a scream....then hr barged in...
sorry, cant remember where i saw that....
_que pasa?_


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have been to Mexico numerous times. PV and Puerto Morales/Playa areas. AI and independent. Last year was two weeks independent. We enjoyed it much more than staying in AI's. We have bussed and walked all over PV. We never felt threatened but of course, as always when traveling, we keep an awareness of our surroundings. While in Puerto Morales last fall we bused with the locals into Cancun in order to get the ferry to Isla. No problem. Would we stay in Cancun proper? Never. Just another big, dirty city that coannot compare with the charms of PV. The one challenge in Yucatan was, and may be still, the sargassum seaweed issue.

This January we plan is to fly down to Huatulco on a one way ticket and stay for a month of our two month trip south. We will work our way back up the coast, detour past Acapulco to PV and perhaps meet some friends in Ixtapa for a few days. At some point in the future we will rent for a few months and then perhaps buy. So far, the target is PV but that could change. Good air connections for us-competition on the route and a fair number of flights. This winter, for personal reasons, we need to stay within a shorter air distance to home. Five hours is fine, the usual 20 hours or so that we have done over the past few years is not in the cards this year. We have absolutely no interest in Florida, AZ, etc.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I love Mexico and really hope to get back there long term again once we get rid of our travel bug. Puerto Vallarta area is about the only place in the world I will be content to settle down in my 80's...(at least that's the plan)


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

^+1.

We are of the same mind. In our late 60's with more places to see but PV remains a top contender. It is not our top spot or our absolute favourite as a location but when we consider other factors it does rise up over a few others. The main one for us being ease of access by air. Lots of flights from Calgary and/or Vancouver, competitive fares, relatively short flights compared to some other favourites of ours. We have never been to the southern Pacific coast and hence want to look here. Already we know that air to Huatulco is much less competitive because of few carriers/fewer flights. But we still want to see it and environs.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian, I agree that access to Mexico is a huge advantage. No question about that. Very affordable too.

What is your overall thoughts on the broad crime stats? It's not just a matter of tourism. Mexico has a high violent crime rate, period. Almost any way you cut the stats.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

So does the USA in general, never mind select places. Sort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate high to low on the first "total" column for violent crime. Over 2000 crimes per 100,000 in some cities?

Like anything else, one just needs to be savvy in their surroundings and avoid being targets of opportunity, i.e. alone, dark streets/alleys, etc. That said, I'd avoid the border cities. Why tempt fate?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james....stats are stats but they often distort reality. No question Mexico has a high crime rate. The US has an exceptionally high murder rate as well. We would go to LA, Newport but would we go to East LA? No. I am much more concerned about random shootings in shopping malls and in Walmarts in the US than I am in parts of Mexico. We have toured Thailand, Greece, Turkey during times when the US state dept was strongly advising against. We were able to make contact via tripadvisor forums with expats who were actually there in order to assess. Huge difference between what we saw on CNN, what the State Dept. was saying, and what a US expat in Bangkok was telling us. Same for Greece and Turkey on one of our trips.

Last fall we felt much safer walking the streets of Puerto Morales at 10PM after finishing dinner that we would in the afternoon in Cancun. We would not even bother with Cancun other than going through the airport or getting off the boss to get on the ferry to Isla. We preferred P. Morales to Playa as well...we felt safer, people were friendlier...whole nine yards if you catch my drift. 

It was not that long ago that the UK Gov't had a travel advisory up on Miami because of, at that time, the sharp increase in murders and violent robbery.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> james....stats are stats but they often distort reality. No question Mexico has a high crime rate. The US has an exceptionally high murder rate as well. We would go to LA, Newport but would we go to East LA? No. I am much more concerned about random shootings in shopping malls and in Walmarts in the US than I am in parts of Mexico. We have toured Thailand, Greece, Turkey during times when the US state dept was strongly advising against. We were able to make contact via tripadvisor forums with expats who were actually there in order to assess. Huge difference between what we saw on CNN, what the State Dept. was saying, and what a US expat in Bangkok was telling us. Same for Greece and Turkey on one of our trips.
> 
> Last fall we felt much safer walking the streets of Puerto Morales at 10PM after finishing dinner that we would in the afternoon in Cancun. We would not even bother with Cancun other than going through the airport or getting off the boss to get on the ferry to Isla. We preferred P. Morales to Playa as well...we felt safer, people were friendlier...whole nine yards if you catch my drift.
> 
> It was not that long ago that the UK Gov't had a travel advisory up on Miami because of, at that time, the sharp increase in murders and violent robbery.


The issue with travel advisories is that they impact travel insurance. So whether someone agrees with an advisory or considers it overblown, is not the issue. If it will void your travel insurance, then that is what you need to base a decision on whether to visit or not. Unless of course you are happy to travel with no insurance.

As for retiring in Mexico, well that depends on your criteria. Obviously, it would make sense to retire somewhere with lower crime rather than higher crime if possible. Mexico appeals to people for a couple of simple reasons, the weather and it's CHEAPER than many other countries. You can say you like other things like the culture and the food etc. but really, the two main reasons people consider Mexico in retirement are the weather and the cost. 

My advice to anyone looking to retire in another country is to pick one of the more expensive countries IF you CAN. There are reasons why any country is cheaper than another and many of those reasons are to do with things like crime and infrastructure. The more of a 'first world' a country is, the better. Mexico is never going to rank highly on 'best quality of life'. If you Google for 'best countries to retire in', you will inevitably get a list that focuses primarily on 'cost of living', not 'quality of life'.

If on the other hand you look for which countries is it best to be a retiree in, you get an entirely different list, like this one. https://www.businessinsider.com/bes...y-healthy-happy-retirement-2019-9#8-canada-11 Canada ranks 8th on that list as a good country to be a retiree in. So if you can AFFORD a comfortable retirement in Canada, it is far preferable to a retirement in somewhere like Mexico. It all depends on what criteria you are using and how you are looking at it. A financially comfortable Canadian retiree can afford to vacation in Mexico far easier than a Mexican retiree can afford to vacation in Canada.

After having lived in half a dozen countries I returned to Canada to live as I get older because it is the BEST country to live in as a retiree that I have access to do so in. If I had my first choice it would be to live in Switzerland. But I can't get residency there and I can't afford to live there even if I could. It usually ranks first on the best countries to be a retiree in list such as the one I linked above.

It annoys me that 'best country to retire' lists always focus on cost of living rather than desirability of being a retiree in that country. I have visited at least a dozen places in Mexico over the years and I enjoy the culture and the food. While crime is high, it doesn't deter me from vacationing there, I just use common sense based on the conditions that exist. ie. I don't go walking alone in the dark, or wearing a Rolex, etc. But I would never consider living there in my old age, I want to live in the best country I can afford to live in. That happens to be Canada which fortunately is one of the best countries to be a retiree in.

Retiring to a cheaper country always has downsides and the only reason it would make sense to do so is if you can't afford anywhere better. And no, don't try to tell me the weather is reason enough to chose such a country. I get all the sunshine and warm weather I want in a year, regardless of what country I live in, it's just called take a vacation.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I don't think you have to walk around wearing a Rolex to get into trouble in Mexico. The same goes for dangerous cities in the US, which I would also never live in.

The US city that I lived in was actually safer than the Canadian city I moved from. It had a lower violent crime rate. The US does have some safe areas... and I will continue going to those places.

My argument would be that there are many nice places to vacation in, which aren't dangerous. This is why I don't see the appeal of going to Mexico. Surely Cuba is a better option?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I don't think you have to walk around wearing a Rolex to get into trouble in Mexico. The same goes for dangerous cities in the US, which I would also never live in.
> 
> The US city that I lived in was actually safer than the Canadian city I moved from. It had a lower violent crime rate. The US does have some safe areas... and I will continue going to those places.
> 
> My argument would be that there are many nice places to vacation in, which aren't dangerous. This is why I don't see the appeal of going to Mexico. Surely Cuba is a better option?


Again it depends on how you view things. I object to spending money in Cuba as it has a repressive communist government. That's enough reason to not vacation there. Many years ago, I met a man who had escaped from Cuba on a boat. Before that, he had cut his own arm with a machete in order to get out of having to go into the fields and cut sugar cane for 12 hours a day. How do you think he feels about people who spend their money in Cuba and by doing so actively contribute to the continuance of the Castro regime? 

And again, why do people vacation in Cuba? Answer, because it is cheap. Many people put their own pocket ahead of any kind of moral question, all the time. I will no longer vacation in the USA, not because of crime but because of Trump. I will not contribute to the American economy as long as he is in office. Nor am I alone, the USA has suffered in terms of tourism since Trump took office. That is a simple fact, it is about avoiding it as a statement of a view of who the people of the USA have elected to lead them and his policies.

This statement,_ "there is a larger issue of public sentiment that should worry the nation. He believes some potential visitors might be staying away because they disagree with policies on immigration or the U.S. withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement. Sacks said he has heard anecdotally from clients about conventions and other travel groups that have canceled plans to visit on moral grounds." _is taken from this article in the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/trav...-than-ever-number-coming-america-is-dropping/ They recognize that Trump is responsible for a drop in US tourism. Not all people chose where they travel to based on cost alone.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I agree. Having traveled extensively Canada will always be our home. Just not in the winter months! We don't bother to much with places in the US like Florida. Not because of politics, crime, or anything else. It is simply because we prefer other winter destinations. We have spent five winters in Thailand, two of them also included Australia and Vietnam. Not because of the costs but because we prefer to spend our winters there. Nothing like staying beside a beach where you may only see a few people on either side as you look at the kms of beautiful, empty beaches. Not to mention the great food and extremely friendly locals.

We did meet a fair number of Americans in Costa Rica. I felt somewhat sorry for those who moved there permanently not because they particularly wanted to but because it was the only way that they could afford to retire early and live comfortably. To a certain extent the same was true in Panama, especially around Boquette.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I should give Thailand a try. I also love Australia.

If you're going to avoid places due to crime, and moral issues, then you're going to have a lot of trouble finding anywhere to go.

By this logic many people wouldn't set foot in the US no matter who the president is, considering they are an aggressive world power that has invaded and destroyed countless countries, overthrown (and continues to overthrow) governments.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james...my spouse was very reluctant to try Thailand. I wanted to go. Our first trip was the result of another vacation destination falling through. Our first winter of retirement. I was on the computer in early Jan. A great fare came up on YYC.com to Thailand leaving in 9 or 10 days. We had a brief conversation and booked it on spec. For a three week vacation. 

After that my spouse's first choice for a winter trip became Thailand and SE Asia... but with one exception. She wanted to go for 8-10 weeks, not three. So it was for another four years. We would be going this winter, and had made plans for it, if it were not for some expected personal issues that require us to be within much closer air distance to Canada. The southern Pacific coast of Mexico was on our bucket list so it also works for us. The best for us was a month or so in Thailand, then a month or so in Australia, and a flight home via Hawaii.

The one downside is the flight. Going for 8-9 weeks makes it worthwhile. At some point we will not want to do it, hence the interest in Mexico's Pacific coastal areas. A five hour flight is a doddle for us compared to Thailand or OZ.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks ian, I love hearing these stories because they're nothing short of inspirational.

Where in Thailand would you recommend for a first timer looking for beaches and greenery? I'm traveling alone so I have to be cautious.

Since I like going to Australia anyway, perhaps I'll combine them. In your experience, what are the cost effective ways to do this kind of routing? I presume, Canada > Australia > Thailand > Canada


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Hawaii is a pretty good destination as well if you can find cheap accommodation. Not hard to find deserted endless beaches here, people speak English,weather is 30 C everyday, great fishing,scuba,surfing etc. 

I do prefer Mexico though...La Paz, Sea of Cortez,Mazatlan down to Barra de Navidad provides endless fishing, sailing, deserted beaches,perfect weather,Costco etc etc. I do have friends that rent and own in the PV area...they like it but I like the mobility and opportunities a boat provides.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Hawaii is nice. I would go there again.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We avoid Phuket and Ko Samui. We like Ko Lanta, Ko Ngai, Ko Libong, areas to the south of Hua Hin....Baan Krut area has great beaches, few tourists. We have NEVER felt uncomfortable in either Thailand or Vietnam. Chiang Mai was also nice but not a beach area. Our plan this year was to go down the coast from Chumphon to Hat Yai, and then to Penang, Malasia by train. Changed our plans. Within SE Asia we have done many AirAsia flights.

We have flown to Australia twice from SE Asia. Both times to Gold Coast. First time from Kuala Lumpur. Fare was about $300 Cad. Last year we flew from Krabi, Thailand. Base fare was $190, about $225 by the time we selected seats, etc. KUL flight on AirAsia was direct. Scoot flight (singapore airlines) had a short connection in Singapore. Long enough for us to have dinner at the airport instead of an in flight meal. Coming home...discount airline Jetstar (sub of Qantas) Sydney to HNL. About $300-400 (advance fare) each time. Stayed in HNL for two days (long enough for us), then a flight home to Canada for $250-$350.

If you plan on going to Australia again sign up for the Jetstar specials. They often have very attractive flights within OZ and to Tasmania and NZ. We picked up some good fares to Tasmania last winter after our Oz friends gave us a heads up on the sale.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Unbelievable prices! I almost don't believe you.

Regarding the route back via HNL, are you booking those totally separately? Is this of the "hacker fare" variety where you are searching for great deals and then piecing them together via your own stop overs?

Right now it's -15 outside with windchill. I can't even walk anywhere any more, and I love walking outside. One thing I learned last winter was that adding a couple warm vacations makes a huge difference in handling winter.

Sorry maybe we should take the southeast Asia discussion to another thread to not disrupt the Mexico topic


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Yes. When we come back from Sydney we are on two tickets. A Jetstar to HNL and whatever else we buy to get us home..A/C, UA, Delta...whatever. Because we have a stopover for at least a day we are not concerned about missing the next flight. We only travel with carry on so missing bags is not a concern of ours. We always have one stop so it does not matter to us. They are all essentially Greyhound buses in the air. We could not believe last year's fare from Krabi to Gold Coast either. Fare has since gone up. We checked on the fare two or three weeks after booking. It was still the same so it was not a fluke. Scoot was the only flight out of Krabi and it happened to be very convenient for us.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I agree. Having traveled extensively Canada will always be our home. Just not in the winter months! We don't bother to much with places in the US like Florida. Not because of politics, crime, or anything else. It is simply because we prefer other winter destinations. We have spent five winters in Thailand, two of them also included Australia and Vietnam. Not because of the costs but because we prefer to spend our winters there. Nothing like staying beside a beach where you may only see a few people on either side as you look at the kms of beautiful, empty beaches. Not to mention the great food and extremely friendly locals.
> 
> We did meet a fair number of Americans in Costa Rica. I felt somewhat sorry for those who moved there permanently not because they particularly wanted to but because it was the only way that they could afford to retire early and live comfortably. To a certain extent the same was true in Panama, especially around Boquette.


Where to vacation and where to retire should always be treated as separate questions. Vacations should be decided based on interests obviously although I have seen plenty of threads on travel forums that start with something like, 'I got a fantastic price to X, what should I see and do there?' I never understand why someone would go somewhere without knowing FIRST whether there was anything there that would interest them. 

What interests one individual may not interest another at all. Thailand for me is a country that does not interest me ENOUGH to choose it over another country that interests me more. I am far more interested in pretty much any country in Europe than I am in any country in SEA. So unless I finally got tired of Europe, I'm never going to choose to go to SEA. But I also recognize that for many people it does come down to cost. Better to go somewhere than go nowhere. If you can't afford your first choice, then better to go to your second choice rather than nowhere. I'm not suggesting that applies in your case ian, but it does for many people. 

Regarding retirees who move to a cheaper country because it is all they can afford as you suggest re people you met in Costa Rica and Panama, they are obviously making that same decision of a second choice being better than nothing. Like I said before, my advice is to retire to the country with the best quality of life that you can AFFORD. But at the same time, I would advise them not to expect MORE than they can afford. ie. there wil be downsides to their having to settle for less. And there is no question that someone choosing to retire in Mexico is going to have to settle for less than someone retiring in Canada. 

'Snowbirding' in whatever form and whatever countries is again an entirely different subject. That is an attempt to get 'the best of both worlds' and may work for some better than for others. The end will always be the same though. At some point for whatever reason, the ability to come and go each year will end. At that point, which country the person is then going to have to stay in will be what matters.


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