# American militias



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is a foreign concept to Canadians. When I first moved to the US, I had no idea what this was. A couple times during my years there, I saw organized, armed militias come into the city and march around in formation with guns. How can the police allow this?

Over time I realized that police don't stop this kind of thing. There are huge numbers of these militia members across the US and they're generally well trained. Some of their members have real military training and even combat experience from Iraq / Afghanistan. Most militias are overwhelmingly male, white, anti-government -- but they generally do support Trump.

Here's a recent video taken earlier this month. Pasted below as well.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

They probably do an OK job of keeping politicians honest.

Also, I remember many many years ago an interview with an ex KGB agent who had defected and went to America, during the cold war. One question he was asked by the reporter was if the KGB ever did any planning for occupation and control of the US itself. I remember he laughed and said, yes we discussed it all the time but it always ended up with the same inevitable problem. Americans just have too many guns and because of just that alone, the occupation of America just can't be done. 

Anyway, not necessarily a reason to suffer all the human costs of gun rights in the US, in my opinion, but if you wondered why they have and tolerate all those militias, that is probably why.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

OptsyEagle said:


> Anyway, not necessarily a reason to suffer all the human costs of gun rights in the US, in my opinion, but if you wondered why they have and tolerate all those militias, that is probably why.


So you see these insurgents as a net benefit to the country. It sounds like you don't trust the institutions of a democracy.

Do you have the same view of insurgents in the middle east? They also provide a challenge to those governments - so they are good?

Myself, I think that only "s-hole" countries have this kind of thing. Civilized democracies use properly functioning institutions, elections, and law, to keep government honest and accountable.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Call them what they are.........gangs.

They are not "well regulated", trained or have any lawful authority, so what is their purpose ?

They can't detain anyone or arrest anyone. They can't even ask people questions. All they can do is walk around trying to intimidate people by how they look.

If they take the law into their own hands they end up as facing life in prison like Kyle Rittenhouse.

Other members of the same gang as Rittenhouse are now facing civil lawsuits.

The ways things are escalating in the US, I predict a group of these people are going to find themselves trapped in a place they wish they weren't.

The "other side" has guns too.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Call them what they are.........gangs.
> 
> They are not "well regulated", trained or have any lawful authority, so what is their purpose ?


Absolutely, they are gangs. It's not appropriate to have armed people marching around in public, scaring and intimidating the population.

Owners of legal weapons can enjoy their guns on their own property, shoot them at ranges, go hunting, etc. But it's an entirely different matter to go marching around in public with guns as a "show of force". It's intimidating and aggressive by nature; they are a danger to the public.

How comfortable would you feel looking out your window and seeing this? Or your kids are playing outside the house, when these insurgents come marching by? Insanity.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

james4beach said:


> So you see these insurgents as a net benefit to the country. It sounds like you don't trust the institutions of a democracy.


I am pretty sure I said that I did not think the net benefit of them was above zero but just attempted to explain why they are tolerated in the US. If I recall I think you posted a thread about Donald Trump losing the election and NOT leaving. I laughed at that pretty hard. I am not going to put it past him to try to wrangle some legal way to pretend that he won the election and I know people can be manipulated quite easily, but if the American people truly believe he lost, they will MAKE him leave. That I do not doubt. That is what I mean by keeping politicians honest. The need for this is still here, even with our democracy. Is the ability to deal with that worth the cost of having these idiots armed and visible. Not to me it isn't, but I do like to have a check on politicians, at times. It reminds them that all their power comes only from the power of their people.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The ways things are escalating in the US, I predict a group of these people are going to find themselves trapped in a place they wish they weren't.
> 
> The "other side" has guns too.


That's what the MAGA protestors are telling the rioters, hopefully they listen.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

OptsyEagle said:


> I am pretty sure I said that I did not think the net benefit of them was above zero but just attempted to explain why they are tolerated in the US. If I recall I think you posted a thread about Donald Trump losing the election and NOT leaving. I laughed at that pretty hard. I am not going to put it past him to try to wrangle some legal way to pretend that he won the election and I know people can be manipulated quite easily, but if the American people truly believe he lost, they will MAKE him leave. That I do not doubt. That is what I mean by keeping politicians honest. The need for this is still here, even with our democracy. Is the ability to deal with that worth the cost of having these idiots armed and visible. Not to me it isn't, but I do like to have a check on politicians, at times. It reminds them that all their power comes only from the power of their people.


Hillary told Biden not to concede the election if he loses and his team has hired 600 lawyers to muck up the process if he loses. The Democrats have also publicly stated that they will not accept the results of the election. 

You probably shouldn't accuse people of being easily manipulated.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^Bizarro world. Trump is on record saying he won't accept an election outcome where he loses and thinks that ballots shouldn't be counted. Has Biden said anything equivalent?


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Trump is against fraudulent ballots. No one knows what Biden thinks because he only reads what someone else puts on a teleprompter in front of him.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ Yeah, and by fraudulent he means the ones cast for Biden.

Go ahead and dampen expectations for Biden. It will work out well in the debate.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

The debate should be interesting....Biden won't have a teleprompter. Or will he?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> ^ Yeah, and by fraudulent he means the ones cast for Biden.
> 
> Go ahead and dampen expectations for Biden. It will work out well in the debate.


Or ballots which were cast by people who didn't show ID to prove they who they claim.

In some states they're just mailing ballots out, I guess they're hoping the right people get them.

Lots to complain about here, but our current paper vote system is pretty robust. Lets not Americanize it to some untrustworthy disaster.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Or ballots which were cast by people who didn't show ID to prove they who they claim.


There are definitely complaints and instances of odd mistakes and sloppiness here and there.

But the question is whether (in the US) there is some kind of grand voter fraud. The answer to that is no -- there is not. Even the FBI has come forward and said there is no coordinated voter fraud in the USA.

At this point, the much greater threat to the US election is what Trump is stirring up: lack of confidence in the mechanisms and procedures. He is undermining the US election process and undermining democracy. The damage Trump is causing will go far beyond just this election, and can easily hurt Republicans for the next generation.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

I have followed most news events of "Militias" quite closely for the past 20 years.
The Ruling Class talks about militias as if they were a cast of thousands and on demand.

City gangs roaming around inner cities are like militias.

I think the sovereign citizen movement is the most prominent militia.

I think the National Guard is a militia for kids in grade school or like Canadian kids who join Cadets, My school friend used to spend hours and hours polishing his soldier boots with black polish and a hot spoon to melt the wax into the leather.

I think that those people not getting a dime of income since July are soon going to begin acting as a militia. And that is why the media chatter on about militias.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Even the FBI has come forward and said there is no coordinated voter fraud in the USA.


The FBI and the Democrat party tried to overturn the 2016 election using fake documents. Of course they'll never acknowledge Democrat voter fraud.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> There are definitely complaints and instances of odd mistakes and sloppiness here and there.
> 
> But the question is whether (in the US) there is some kind of grand voter fraud. The answer to that is no -- there is not. Even the FBI has come forward and said there is no coordinated voter fraud in the USA.
> 
> At this point, the much greater threat to the US election is what Trump is stirring up: lack of confidence in the mechanisms and procedures. He is undermining the US election process and undermining democracy. The damage Trump is causing will go far beyond just this election, and can easily hurt Republicans for the next generation.


The mechanisms and procedures are broken and open for abuse, which is EXACTLY the point.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> The mechanisms and procedures are broken and open for abuse, which is EXACTLY the point.


This is definitely getting off topic, but there is no reason to think there is any widespread voter fraud or ballot problems.

The mail-in ballots are required to allow people to vote. They are legitimate votes. People arguing to throw them away or disregard them are trying to corrupt and manipulate a democratic election.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> The mechanisms and procedures are broken and open for abuse, which is EXACTLY the point.


It enabled W Bush to steal the 2000 election from Gore, for instance.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> It enabled W Bush to steal the 2000 election from Gore, for instance.


My guess is that Republicans are about to steal this election too, just like 2000. The party is extremely strategic about undermining democratic processes.

First they tried sabotaging the USPS, but the courts stopped that: A Federal Judge Says USPS Delays Were an “Intentional Effort” to Undermine Fair Elections

That's extremely troubling, but notice it's not in the news any more. Now that the USPS sabotage was thwarted, Republicans are focusing on Plan B: creating doubt and skepticism about the legitimacy of mail-in ballots. Simultaneously they are pursuing Plan C (standard voter suppression) and Plan D (overruling votes at the state level)

This is very strategically done. And in fact you can watch what people like @Prairie Guy and @MrMatt post here as an indication of what forms of Republican messaging are working.

What people don't remember was that in 2000, this was partly a battle of messaging. The Bush side was able to influence media and the population, to the point where public sentiment turned against Gore. At that point, Gore conceded -- even though he actually won the election.

Something similar could happen again here if the popular vote is close. At this point I expect the Republicans to succeed in corrupting the vote and stealing the election, similar to 2000.

If you ever wondered how democracy and voting fails in third world countries and places like Russia, you're in luck: you get to watch it live.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

NYT publishes Trump's tax returns. Shocker: he's lost a lot of money.









Trump’s Taxes Show Chronic Losses and Years of Income Tax Avoidance (Published 2020)


The Times obtained Donald Trump’s tax information extending over more than two decades, revealing struggling properties, vast write-offs, an audit battle and hundreds of millions in debt coming due.



www.nytimes.com





Trump's former campaign manager attempts suicide:








Former Trump campaign manager Brad Parscale hospitalized following reported suicide attempt


President Donald Trump's former campaign manager Brad Parscale was hospitalized Sunday following reports of a suicide attempt at his Florida home, CNN has learned.




www.cnn.com


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

The NYT runs a story about Trump's taxes instead of the fact that Hunter Biden received $3.5 million from Russia. No wonder trust in the media is at an all time low.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Trump is the president! It's newsworthy! 

Not to mention, NYT has covered this. Including the Republicans concluding that there was no impropriety!









Republican Inquiry Finds No Evidence of Wrongdoing by Biden (Published 2020)


The report delivered on Wednesday appeared to be little more than a rehashing of unproven allegations that echoed a Russian disinformation campaign.




www.nytimes.com





Back to Trump and his tax avoidance and business failures.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Trump's former campaign manager attempts suicide:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this guy, Parscale, has a long history with the Trump campaign. He's been working on Trump's campaign since 2016. He's been the campaign *manager* for two and a half years!

The SWAT team had to be called to Parscale's house, where he was threatening to kill himself.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> This is definitely getting off topic, but there is no reason to think there is any widespread voter fraud or ballot problems.
> 
> The mail-in ballots are required to allow people to vote. They are legitimate votes. People arguing to throw them away or disregard them are trying to corrupt and manipulate a democratic election.


What steps are being taken to ensure that the person casting the vote is legally allowed to vote in the election?
For example, lets say the mail in ballot goes to a persons former residence.
The person at that address takes the ballot and casts it. What steps in the process prevent this.

Some ballots are going to the wrong address. 
Some of those votes will be cast.
The question is if there is or is not too much fraud.

I'm sure the losing side, whichever side it is, will at the very least "protest" the results.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Massive Democrat voter fraud in Minnesota:





__





'Cash-For-Ballots' Fraud Uncovered In Ilhan Omar's Minnesota District: Veritas | ZeroHedge


ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




www.zerohedge.com


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> What steps are being taken to ensure that the person casting the vote is legally allowed to vote in the election?
> 
> For example, lets say the mail in ballot goes to a persons former residence.
> The person at that address takes the ballot and casts it. What steps in the process prevent this ...


It seems like the most common method is the voter has to sign the outside of the secure envelope, which is then matched before the ballot is opened to what is on file. At least one state uses a bipartisan team to do the signature matching. Other states require additional information to be put on the secure envelope that is also matched.

IIRC correctly, one required a photocopy of id be included but I might be confused with Canada's application for a mail in ballot.

Interestingly, one of the states mailing out ballots is Utah which is reported to be heavily Republican.


Keep in mind that as of the end of August, nine states plus DC were reported to be mailing out ballots (i.e. voters did not have to request or apply for one) for a total of ten. Five states did this before covid-19 so basically, the number has increased by five.




MrMatt said:


> ... Some ballots are going to the wrong address.
> Some of those votes will be cast.
> The question is if there is or is not too much fraud.


With some states having mail in elections as far back as 2000 or earlier, it would seem that fraud could be researched. 









Research on voting by mail says it's safe – from fraud and disease


Voting by mail is rarely subject to fraud, does not give an advantage to one political party over another and can in fact inspire public confidence in the voting process.




theconversation.com












Top US election officials say mail-in voting doesn’t lead to widespread voter fraud


Documented incidents of voter fraud in U.S. elections are rare, experts say.




www.fox10phoenix.com





Interesting that it's a Republican who is saying there's no rampant voter fraud, despite that state going to mail in voting. Also interesting that the verification requirements are reported to be the same, regardless of whether one has to request a ballot or has one mailed to them automatically.


Cheers


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Mods need to change the title of this thread to Voter Fraud or something.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> The question is if there is or is not too much fraud.
> 
> I'm sure the losing side, whichever side it is, will at the very least "protest" the results.


Law enforcement and domestic intelligence says there is NOT too much fraud.

Generally, law enforcement is pretty sharp in the US. I trust their assessment. And I certainly don't trust a bunch of armed, paranoid lunatics marching in the streets to "correct" the situation using force.

Protesting results is perfectly legal and democratic. Stealing an election by trying to suppress ballots (which is what Republicans are doing) is not legal, nor is it democratic.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The results or reaction after this election will not be political in nature.

There are millions and millions of desperate unemployed people.
They will not be acting out for political reasons, they will be demanding to be bailed out like the Rich Folks and Wall Street were bailed out.

The media are attempting to exaggerate the militia threats and blame political strife rather than to face up to the economic strife facing the country.

Which is the greater threat? 
An organized militia amounting to perhaps a million members, or 15 million disorganized angry and desperate persons?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> NYT publishes Trump's tax returns. Shocker: he's lost a lot of money.


Shouldn't be a shocker to anyone. But I'm sure that some people will be surprised, and


Eclectic12 said:


> It seems like the most common method is the voter has to sign the outside of the secure envelope, which is then matched before the ballot is opened to what is on file. At least one state uses a bipartisan team to do the signature matching. Other states require additional information to be put on the secure envelope that is also matched.
> 
> IIRC correctly, one required a photocopy of id be included but I might be confused with Canada's application for a mail in ballot.
> 
> Interestingly, one of the states mailing out ballots is Utah which is reported to be heavily Republican.



None of those methods ensure it's a free vote.
That needs to happen in a secure location.

I think the photocopy of ID outside the envelope (like the conservative election we just had) isn't horrible.
But its' easy to fake, i could borrow my wifes wallet for a few minutes quite easily. But I think that dramatically reduce outright fraud, but does nothing for coersion.





james4beach said:


> Law enforcement and domestic intelligence says there is NOT too much fraud.
> 
> Generally, law enforcement is pretty sharp in the US. I trust their assessment. And I certainly don't trust a bunch of armed, paranoid lunatics marching in the streets to "correct" the situation using force.
> 
> Protesting results is perfectly legal and democratic. Stealing an election by trying to suppress ballots (which is what Republicans are doing) is not legal, nor is it democratic.


Really? You want to say it's not a problem because Trump says it's not a problem?

When the Trump DoJ says election fraud is not a problem (as you claim, but didn't support) it's believable and trustworthy.
But when Trump implements the travel ban based on the findings of the Obama administration, it was because Trump was a hateful racist bigot.



Ensuring legitimate elections is one of the most important jobs in a democracy.
It can be debated what a "good" election looks like, but I think they need to be free and fair.

Mail in ballots are open to fraud, and they take almost no measures to ensure they're free votes. Which of course is a challenge to their legitimacy.
The fact that you aren't concerned about voter intimidation is troubling to me.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

james4beach said:


> Absolutely, they are gangs. It's not appropriate to have armed people marching around in public, scaring and intimidating the population.
> 
> 
> View attachment 20662


I heard an interview with Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, former Chief of Staff to US Secretary of State. He's a lifelong Republican.

He was talking about these insurgents that I posted the video of. He says most of them are cowards and can quickly be put down (by the US Military). However, he says that if they start shooting, things can get out of hand.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> ... None of those methods ensure it's a free vote.
> That needs to happen in a secure location.


I'm not following. I can see where being able to match a face to id reduces the changes of fraud but it does nothing AFAICT to make sure the voter hasn't been intimidated/bought off or whatever else.




MrMatt said:


> ... I think the photocopy of ID outside the envelope (like the conservative election we just had) isn't horrible.
> But its' easy to fake, i could borrow my wifes wallet for a few minutes quite easily. But I think that dramatically reduce outright fraud, but does nothing for coersion.


Assuming one knows the other person isn't going to vote plus has access to be able to fake what's being used for verification - sure mail in vote fraud can happen. The opportunity is far less than some talk about. For example, where the address on file is an apartment - how's the current resident getting a copy of the signature and have knowledge that the voter won't vote in person?

Coersion and voter intimidation seems to be in play no matter how what voting method one uses to vote. 
Another concern are the reports of some voters being purged from the eligible voter list that don't fit the criteria to be purged.


Cheers


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Voting procedures must be the only event that demands perfection.
All the candidates claim that they are not perfect human beings but if you want to express your right to vote, you better be perfect in doing so.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Coersion and voter intimidation seems to be in play no matter how what voting method one uses to vote.
> Another concern are the reports of some voters being purged from the eligible voter list that don't fit the criteria to be purged.


Canadian Federal elections are pretty good with this.
You're not allowed to bring in a recording device.
You must be alone behind the voting screen.

Basically it's really hard to intimidate large numbers of people to vote one way.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Canadian Federal elections are pretty good with this.
> You're not allowed to bring in a recording device.
> You must be alone behind the voting screen.
> 
> Basically it's really hard to intimidate large numbers of people to vote one way.


Last time I was voting a saw a middle-aged person accompanying granny voting behind the screen. I was a bit uncomfortable with that...


On the other hand, in the US people seem to be fans of standing outside polling places (particularly those in area with concentrations of opposing supporters) brandishing rifles and staring down people.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Last time I was voting a saw a middle-aged person accompanying granny voting behind the screen. I was a bit uncomfortable with that...
> 
> 
> On the other hand, in the US people seem to be fans of standing outside polling places (particularly those in area with concentrations of opposing supporters) brandishing rifles and staring down people.


I think that's kind of important. Some Canadians are so concerned with election integrity that even having an assistance person is viewed skeptically. 

That's why I really wonder how online voting has so much support among some people. 
If there are serious doubts to the legitimacy of an election, what obligation is there to abide by the results?


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

If Trump is a bum who never made any money how can they complain if he didn't pay any taxes?

If he is a self made billionaire and doesn't pay taxes, and has broken no laws, that makes him smart. Given that they have been going over his records with a fine tooth comb for years if he dodged any taxes we would know it by now.

He has 50 or 100 separate companies in real estate investments, casinos, golf courses, media, licensing the Trump name and who knows what. I am sure some of them lost money and pay no taxes, I am also sure his claim that he pays millions every year in taxes is true. He probably pays millions in real estate taxes alone.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

andrewf said:


> Last time I was voting a saw a middle-aged person accompanying granny voting behind the screen. I was a bit uncomfortable with that...
> 
> On the other hand, in the US people seem to be fans of standing outside polling places (particularly those in area with concentrations of opposing supporters) brandishing rifles and staring down people.


Voter intimidation in the US is real. And that's just one of their many, many problems.

I used to complain more about Canadian politics a few years ago. Then I went to the US and saw what was going on there.

Harper was still PM when I started to see that Canadian politics are pretty good. We are lucky here. Living in the US and seeing the insanity first hand completely changed my view on all of this. I am extremely thankful for our sensible politicians, and our well-functioning government. I'm also thankful that Canadians -- mostly -- respect and value the institutions of government.

Witnessing the dysfunction of the US first hand has only made me appreciate government more. Many Canadians don't realize how good we have it.

I also worry that the US dysfunction, and the "mood" from down south will influence Canadians and disrupt our own political tastes. Unfortunately anything that happens in the US has a big impact on Canada.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Voter intimidation in the US is real. And that's just one of their many, many problems.
> 
> I used to complain more about Canadian politics a few years ago. Then I went to the US and saw what was going on there.
> 
> ...


I agree with your sentiment, unfortunately we import way too much US culture.

Historically we've had a non-partisan bureaucracy, and generally decent leadership.
Though lately the blantant partisan activities, and ethical lapses are very troubling to me.

I dont' think it's at US levels of divisiveness, but I'm afraid we get a lot of spillover.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

After Trump's comments about white supremacists during the debate, the Proud Boys (one of the MAGA gangs) has been energized by Trump's words, which they interpreted as support. They are now printing his words on their new logos. "Stand back, stand by"

It's debatable whether Trump meant anything positive by his words (they sounded pretty neutral to me) but the point is that these gangs interpret Trump as their military commander, are positioning themselves as Trump's personal army.

Many third world countries have this kind of thing as well. The Nazis also had a similar paramilitary wing (the _Sturmabteilung _or Brownshirts) which aren't the official army, but used for various kinds of intimidation and suppression of political enemies. Which is exactly what the white militias (MAGA gangs) do.

So when you see these heavily armed thugs marching around, like in the video I posted at the top of the thread, realize that these MAGA men are armed and ready to go -- for whatever Trump wants.

If Trump goes into a fit of rage when he loses the election, and tells the MAGA gangs to start shooting his enemies, they will do it. It would not surprise me in the least if Trump orders a massacre of American civilians.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The election is trending toward a blowout for Biden, which would be good as it might forestall the tension of a close election. But it is kind of a crappy standard that Democrats have to win by a huge margin (in the electoral college--they usually win the popular vote) to not risk violence. The worst case is a narrow Biden win and Trump calls out the goons and rejects the outcome.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Trump finally did say he is against white supremacists, including Proud Boys by name, plus Amazon has pulled sales of Proud Boys garbage off their platform. I suspect enough concerned Republicans got to Trump to denounce them. Trouble is he reverses continuously and it doesn't change the motto that the Proud Boys will hold on to as long as it serves their purposes.








Trump Now Says He Condemns 'All White Supremacists,' After Declining To At Debate


Speaking with Fox's Sean Hannity, the president said: "Let me be clear again: I condemn the KKK. I condemn all white supremacists. I condemn the Proud Boys."




www.npr.org


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Trump finally did say he is against white supremacists, including Proud Boys by name, plus Amazon has pulled sales of Proud Boys garbage off their platform. I suspect enough concerned Republicans got to Trump to denounce them. Trouble is he reverses continuously and it doesn't change the motto that the Proud Boys will hold on to as long as it serves their purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Finally?
He's been saying it the whole time, literally for years.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/08/14/trump-denounces-kkk-neo-nazis-as-justice-department-launches-civil-rights-probe-into-charlottesville-death/



The weird thing is as the media complains Trump and "Right wingers" don't denounce racism enough, has the left ever denounced the BLM riots? 
Not really, they sit there "reporting" on "mostly peaceful" protest, while buildings burn in the background.

There is a double standard, the far left never denounces actions from their agitators, but they expect the center/right to be constantly denouncing of extremists that they've never agreed with.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Trump finally did say he is against white supremacists


Are you really that informed or are you trolling? Perhaps you should stop getting your talking points from CNN...


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The BLM movement does not instigate violence nor riots. It is the hoodlums and troublemakers behind the movement that take advantage of the peaceful protests that do that. Of course, right wingers are too biased to understand that. Trump has never singled out far right groups on their own in his early responses. It has always been 'good and bad' on both sides until there is enough heat on him that he has to retract and cover his tracks. Trump is racist to the core and always has been. Take your blinders off. I know you will respond... because your posts define you rather clearly.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

> ... *Trump is racist to the core and always has been.* Take your blinders off. I know you will respond... because your posts define you rather clearly.


Imagine what kind of animal admires and love another who called his fellow Americans war veterans as "losers & suckers"???? And then goes ... "what? me said/did that?"


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Finally?
> He's been saying it the whole time, literally for years.
> 
> 
> ...


For someone who is supposed to be unequivocally against white supremacist groups, he is awfully mealy mouthed about it. Never mind the odd phrasing of "stand by... stand down" (either genius dog whistle or less than full-throated condemnation).


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> For someone who is supposed to be unequivocally against white supremacist groups, he is awfully mealy mouthed about it. Never mind the odd phrasing of "stand by... stand down" (either genius dog whistle or less than full-throated condemnation).


Just to be clear he denounced White Supremacists groups.

Stand by stand down was in reference to the Proud Boys, which obviously has nothing to do with white supremacist groups. 

Now you'll come back and engage in ridiculous circular logic.

They support Trump, therefore they're white supremacists, and Trump is a white supremacist for not denouncing these groups. 
Never mind that the chairman is black, and they have significant numbers of PoC in their membership, you've already decided anything that isn't far left and racist is "white supremacy".


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Years ago I read a story about a safe cracker who used to create his own crisis.

The guy used to call the cops and report gunfire, and so many cops turned up at an address about a half mile away and harrassed everybody in the neighbourhood, The safe cracker was able to break the window and enter his crime location unheard and unnoticed.

The protesters are creating a crisis and the safecracker is committing his crime unchallenged.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There should be a paid well trained and armed force of former military veterans deployed to support peaceful protestors when requested.

They should be "deputized" and "fully funded" by the House of Representatives to protect and to serve the legal peaceful protestors.

They can be called the Freedom Rangers.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

LGBTQ people are reclaiming the name "Proud Boys" from the right wing group. Brilliant idea...........LOL.









How these gay men in B.C. are reclaiming #Proudboys from a far right group


A politician, an author and an environmental activist are among those in the LGBTQ community showcasing their gay pride on Twitter.



bc.ctvnews.ca


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> LGBTQ people are reclaiming the name "Proud Boys" from the right wing group. Brilliant idea...........LOL.


And it may not even be too far off the mark.

There is something vaguely homosexual about all of these militias (men's gangs) like Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, Soldiers of Odin, etc. Why do these guys want to spend all their time hanging out with other men, playing soldier dress-up, and play fighting?

In fact there is more than one motorcycle gang in which members greet their "brothers" by kissing them on the lips.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> My guess is that Republicans are about to steal this election too, just like 2000. The party is extremely strategic about undermining democratic processes.
> 
> First they tried sabotaging the USPS, but the courts stopped that: A Federal Judge Says USPS Delays Were an “Intentional Effort” to Undermine Fair Elections
> 
> ...


Well, there are reasons to be wary of unvalidated mail in votes.
You have to realize that the DNC is playing the exact same game, there are already reports of vote fraud, and they're going to ramp up. I hope the various agencies investigate it.

Plus Gore would have been a horrible president, according to you, he already won, but he still gave up.
I don't want a quitter fighting for my country. Trump might be bad, but even when he's lost he doesn't give up fighting.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> And it may not even be too far off the mark.
> 
> There is something vaguely homosexual about all of these militias (men's gangs) like Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, Soldiers of Odin, etc. Why do these guys want to spend all their time hanging out with other men, playing soldier dress-up, and play fighting?
> 
> In fact there is more than one motorcycle gang in which members greet their "brothers" by kissing them on the lips.


Okay, so what's the problem?
Are you suggesting that there's something wrong with being gay, or men even expressing affection towards each other?

I think you're projecting your own issues here.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Does james homophobia comment violate CMF's terms of service?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

James comment is valid to question the reason the militia group chose to adopt the Proud Boys name that was associated with the LGBTQ community.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Does james homophobia comment violate CMF's terms of service?


 ... why don't you look it up and then quote the "violation", if it exists?


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> James comment is valid to question the reason the militia group chose to adopt the Proud Boys name that was associated with the LGBTQ community.


 ... I think the LGBTQ group/association should sue the fake Proud Boys organization for name infringement.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Nothing homophobic at all, but that's interesting that @MrMatt and @Prairie Guy interpret being gay as = negative or derogatory. Pretty typical of the far right, showing their values.

I'm just observing that there may be something innately queer about all-men gangs. If you think being queer is a bad thing, that's on you... not me.

To our resident far right, "queer" or "homosexual" seems to be interpreted as an insult, as they just wrote above. Again, that's on you, not me.

I have no issue with the queerness of men's gangs and militias. I have a problem with their violence and the threat they pose to society.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Nothing homophobic at all, but that's interesting that @MrMatt and @Prairie Guy interpret being gay as = negative or derogatory. Pretty typical of the far right, showing their values.
> 
> I'm just observing that there may be something innately queer about all-men gangs. If you think being queer is a bad thing, that's on you... not me.
> 
> ...


Actually you said that there's something "vaguely homosexual", and I literally asked "what's the problem"?

I'm glad we agree that there is a problem with violent gangs.
So when will you denounce BLM?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Actually you said that there's something "vaguely homosexual", and I literally asked "what's the problem"?


There is nothing wrong with being vaguely homosexual.



MrMatt said:


> I'm glad we agree that there is a problem with violent gangs.
> So when will you denounce BLM?


Completely agree that violent gangs are a problem.

BLM is not a gang. They are protesters who are standing up for black people's rights. The true gangs are these organized boys clubs and militias, which are overwhelmingly right wing, overwhelmingly white, and mostly MAGA cult members.

They are dangerous, armed people and we must put a stop to them.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> There is nothing wrong with being vaguely homosexual.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see BLM rioters torching buildings, I don't see any MAGA's protesting western values.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

Sorry .... wrong thread.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Well, there are reasons to be wary of unvalidated mail in votes ...


AFAICT, an "unvalidated" vote is one that has not yet been checked against one or more items on file.
Are there any states that are allowing a mail in vote to be counted without the verification(s) occurring?

With more people being new to mail in votes, the number of rejected ones reported is pretty much at double the number of rejections for the 2016 general election. Sad but not unexpected IMO.

If the mail in votes are unvalidated, shouldn't more of the rejected ones be counted so that the rejection rate is more in-line with previous elections?
Or did you mean you think that mail in votes that are passing the validation are fraudulent?

If the validation criteria is so weak, I wonder how there can be reports of people being convicted of duplicate mail in voting where the duplication of votes are in different states?

There's also the republican convicted for twice voting in the 2016 general election, where one vote was cast as an in-person ballot in one state then an absentee ballot in a different state. The voter fraud that twice overturned a state election where no Democrats ran and the family that used a vacant lot to vote in a city they didn't live in who were caught/convicted.


Cheers


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The McCloskys (porch couple waving their guns around during a peaceful protest) have now been indicted by a grand jury. 

They face a felony gun charge and the grand jury added the charge of tampering with evidence.









St. Louis couple indicted for waving guns at protesters


The McCloskeys, who are both attorneys, have become folk heroes among some conservatives.




www.politico.com


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> The McCloskys (porch couple waving their guns around during a peaceful protest) have now been indicted by a grand jury.
> 
> They face a felony gun charge and the grand jury added the charge of tampering with evidence.


Many conservatives hate free speech when it's not a right wing person doing the talking.

For example: this couple. Also, Kyle Rittenhouse and those right wing militias and gangs. All of these people are using violence and weapons to scare, suppress, and even harm people whose opinions they dislike.

Rittenhouse, militias, and this gun-toting couple are NOT just minding their own business. They intend to suppress and harm groups they oppose: visible ethnic minorities, black people, left-leaning protesters, and sometimes homosexuals.

These are far right extremists. They have a powerful media machinery (notably Fox News) to push their propaganda but make no mistake. These people are not interested in defending themselves or leaving others alone. What they engage in are *offensive* actions.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> The McCloskys (porch couple waving their guns around during a peaceful protest) have now been indicted by a grand jury.
> 
> They face a felony gun charge and the grand jury added the charge of tampering with evidence.
> 
> ...


 ...



> .... “Every single human being that was in front of my house was a criminal trespasser,” McCloskey said. “They broke down our gate. They trespassed on our property. Not a single one of those people is now charged with anything. We’re charged with felonies that could cost us four years of our lives and our law licenses.”


 ... now they're famous guns-toting "ex-lawyers." Can't get classier than that ... best in the class of idiots. Plus dumb & dumber.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ... now they're famous guns-toting "ex-lawyers." Can't get classier than that ... best in the class of idiots. Plus dumb & dumber.


That's a classy and intelligent comment.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Waving guns and screaming at people passing by = idiots.

Apparently the couple wasn't all the popular with their neighbors either.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Waving guns and screaming at people passing by = idiots.
> 
> Apparently the couple wasn't all the popular with their neighbors either.


They had the guts to confront them. You'd probably hide in the basement shaking with terror if thugs trespassed on your property and threatened to kill you.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ...
> 
> ... now they're famous guns-toting "ex-lawyers." Can't get classier than that ... best in the class of idiots. Plus dumb & dumber.


They acted in full compliance with the law.

Note the prosecutors dropped all charges for the clear cut case of the trespassers the homeowners confronted.
The evidence of the initial trespassing is pretty much ironclad, they don't even deny they were tresspassing.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> That's a classy and intelligent comment.


 ... you're welcomed but I'm not a lawyer ... unlike these 2. Correct that ... unlike these 2 ex-lawyers that you favour.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> They had the guts to confront them. You'd probably hide in the basement shaking with terror if thugs trespassed on your property and threatened to kill you.


 ... I bet it's the same with you in your Fort Knox, loaded with ammos, assault rifles, submachine guns, handgrenades, bozookas, etc. all ready for WW3, only with nowhere to go except on this forum.

Any "intelligent true millionaire-status" person would have simply have their windows blinders down and doors shut and let the protestors by-pass to avoid violence. 

But then there're those super-super-super-wanna-be-smart-celebrity-status who chooses to be "brave" and confront and provoke the protestors, claiming to they were "threatened" and needed to "protect" themselves from the hot-air coming from the protestors.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> They acted in full compliance with the law.
> 
> Note the prosecutors dropped all charges for the clear cut case of the trespassers the homeowners confronted.
> The evidence of the initial trespassing is pretty much ironclad, they don't even deny they were tresspassing.


 ... too bad, so sad. They got the celebrity status they were seeking ... and off to jail they go next.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I bet it's the same with you in your Fort Knox, loaded with ammos, assault rifles, submachine guns, handgrenades, bozookas, etc. all ready for WW3, only with nowhere to go except on this forum.
> 
> Any "intelligent true millionaire-status" person would have simply have their windows blinders down and doors shut and let the protestors by-pass to avoid violence.
> 
> But then there're those super-super-super-wanna-be-smart-celebrity-status who chooses to be "brave" and confront and provoke the protestors, claiming to they were "threatened" and needed to "protect" themselves from the hot-air coming from the protestors.


That's it...keep up the insults and maybe no one will notice that you have nothing valid to add.

By the way, you forgot to call me a white supremacist wearing a white hood who kicks puppies.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Beaver101 said:


> ... too bad, so sad. They got the celebrity status they were seeking ... and off to jail they go next.


They didn't want celebrity status, they just wanted to be left alone but I guess you're too brainwashed by CNN to think for yourself.

I no longer wonder why Trudeau was elected twice when I read some of the comments here.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> That's it...keep up the insults and maybe no one will notice that you have nothing valid to add.
> 
> By the way, you forgot to call me a white supremacist wearing a white hood who kicks puppies.


 ... I'm only responding in kind. This is called "equality" if you believe in it ... which is most likely not.

And don't put words in my mouth with your own accusations.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> They didn't want celebrity status, they just wanted to be left alone but I guess you're too brainwashed by CNN to think for yourself.
> 
> I no longer wonder why Trudeau was elected twice when I read some of the comments here.


 .. I don't watch CNN so you're the one who has been brainwashed and continues to be ... plus you're so smart that you can't decipher what you read. So they just want to be left alone ... and yet go pointing flashing rifles and guns, confronting the protestors. Duh. 

WTF does this have with Trudeau now? Nice try with the distraction ... going political typical.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> They had the guts to confront them. You'd probably hide in the basement shaking with terror if thugs trespassed on your property and threatened to kill you.


I think if they just continued their dinner the crowd would have passed without incident and this couple would not be indicted.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> They didn't want celebrity status, they just wanted to be left alone but I guess you're too brainwashed by CNN to think for yourself.
> 
> I no longer wonder why Trudeau was elected twice when I read some of the comments here.


You're showing your age. Only the elderly watch cable news.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I think if they just continued their dinner the crowd would have passed without incident and this couple would not be indicted.


Talk about victim blaming.

Criminal breaks into your property, you confront them, you get charged, they get their charges dropped.
It's wrong, and that's why people are losing faith in the government.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> You're showing your age. Only the elderly watch cable news.


Cable news? I thought everyone saw CNN online.
Does anyone even have cable TV anymore?


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> You're showing your age. Only the elderly watch cable news.


I don't watch cable news.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Talk about victim blaming.
> 
> Criminal breaks into your property, you confront them, you get charged, they get their charges dropped.
> It's wrong, and that's why people are losing faith in the government.


They were walking on a common element. Do you think I wave a gun at every person walking around my condo common element?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Talk about victim blaming.
> 
> Criminal breaks into your property, you confront them, you get charged, they get their charges dropped.
> It's wrong, and that's why people are losing faith in the government.


You think people should be free to wave deadly weapons at other in a deranged fashion? If I did that in my condo, I would also rightly be charged.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> You think people should be free to wave deadly weapons at other in a deranged fashion? If I did that in my condo, I would also rightly be charged.


That's because the laws in Canada don't typically allow the use of firearms for self defense.
In addition, they weren't acting in a deranged fashion, they were acting like scared people who were abandoned by the police.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> You think people should be free to wave deadly weapons at other in a deranged fashion? If I did that in my condo, I would also rightly be charged.


They were being threatened by an angry mob. You seem to forget that 15+ people have been killed by protestors and violent thugs pretending to be "peaceful protestors" in the last few months.

Just pretend they were the imaginary white supremacists you see everywhere instead of the actual leftist anarchists.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> That's because the laws in Canada don't typically allow the use of firearms for self defense.
> In addition, they weren't acting in a deranged fashion, they were acting like scared people who were abandoned by the police.


 ... MrMatt claims these 2 were "scared" people and yet PraireGuy claimed (post #71) they "had the guts to confront the protestors instead of hiding in the basement shaking with terror" ... which is it?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... MrMatt claims these 2 were "scared" people and yet PraireGuy claimed (post #71) they "had the guts to confront the protestors instead of hiding in the basement shaking with terror" ... which is it?


Uhh 2 different opinions?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> They were being threatened by an angry mob. You seem to forget that 15+ people have been killed by protestors and violent thugs pretending to be "peaceful protestors" in the last few months.
> 
> Just pretend they were the imaginary white supremacists you see everywhere instead of the actual leftist anarchists.


Were they threatened before or after they started waving guns like lunatics? The 'mob' was not interested in this couple. They were on the way to protest the mayor.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Were they threatened before or after they started waving guns like lunatics?


They were threatened before they went in their house to get the guns.
When did they wave them like lunatics? 
Never saw that video, or is this another made up claim?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I can't find any unedited video of the incident, but you can clearly see the couple pointing loaded firearms at the crowd. Anyone who understands gun safety knows that you never point a gun at someone you don't intend to kill, much less waving it around with your finger on the trigger. The couple apparently claimed that they got their guns because they saw people in the crowd had weapons, not because they were threatened.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I can't find any unedited video of the incident, but you can clearly see the couple pointing loaded firearms at the crowd. Anyone who understands gun safety knows that you never point a gun at someone you don't intend to kill, much less waving it around with your finger on the trigger. The couple apparently claimed that they got their guns because they saw people in the crowd had weapons, not because they were threatened.


In their state it is legal to use a firearm to defend yourself from someone who trespasses on your property.
Just because the use was pointing instead of discharging doesn't suddenly make their conduct criminal.
Arguably if someone was injured or killed, the trespassers should be liable for murder as they committed the precipitating crime.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I guess the grand jury doesn't agree, given the indictment. I guess the courts will decide. They were also indicted with tampering with evidence. Not sure what that was related to, but maybe their account has been deemed untruthful.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I guess the grand jury doesn't agree, given the indictment. I guess the courts will decide. They were also indicted with tampering with evidence. Not sure what that was related to, but maybe their account has been deemed untruthful.


Who knows, they might argue that unloading and storing the firearms.

The fact that not a single trespasser is facing charges is evidence enough that this is a political prosecution.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Yep, just like the Dump says he was going to pardon them if they have to go to jail. The political Messiah is gonna save them.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Yep, just like the Dump says he was going to pardon them if they have to go to jail. The political Messiah is gonna save them.


Well it's pretty obvious that they didn't commit a crime.

Unlike Rittenhouse, where there is limited video of the initial attack, here it is pretty darn clear cut that the homeowners were confronted by tresspasssers, those facts aren't even in dispute.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Well it's pretty obvious that they didn't commit a crime.
> 
> Unlike Rittenhouse, where there is limited video of the initial attack, here it is pretty darn clear cut that the homeowners were confronted by tresspasssers, those facts aren't even in dispute.


 .. maybe you can tell that to the grand jury who will make that determination. Unless you're saying the grand jury is also politically motivated.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> .. maybe you can tell that to the grand jury who will make that determination. Unless you're saying the grand jury is also politically motivated.


Don't know the details of what they were told.
But the prosecutor should have never brought charges, they're ridiculous.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And here's another thing right wing militias are up to:

The FBI stopped a plot to kidnap the Michigan governor 

The 6 people are accused of plotting to overthrow the Michigan government and kidnap the senator. They were trying to acquire explosives and tactical gear.



> Michigan is a hotbed of nationalist, extremist and white supremacist hate groups, with more than two dozen organizations active in the state, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> And here's another thing right wing militias are up to:
> 
> The FBI stopped a plot to kidnap the Michigan governor
> 
> The 6 people are accused of plotting to overthrow the Michigan government and kidnap the senator. They were trying to acquire explosives and tactical gear.


The article tagline needs an addition.

Whitmer has become a target of conservatives *and the Michigan Supreme Court *who believe her response to the coronavirus pandemic trampled on individual freedoms with statewide orders to wear masks and stay at home.

Good thing the feds stopped this, this behaviour is unacceptable. hopefully they can stop the left wing terrorists too.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Good thing the feds stopped this, this behaviour is unacceptable. hopefully they can stop the left wing terrorists too.


I worry that the FBI is likely being overwhelmed with all the extremist activity that is happening lately.

Don't worry MrMatt, like all cops, the FBI is firmly dedicated to stopping left wing terrorists. Typically agencies like the FBI and RCMP (staffed by guys like you) are paranoid about lefties so you can be sure they are doing their best to catch them.

But domestic extremism and terrorism is, overwhelmingly, the far right. That's just how it works in US & Canada. The activity level of far right terrorists has gone through the roof since Trump took office and Trump keeps encouraging them, so they are getting progressively bolder and more active. The FBI is struggling to keep up with them.

Same is true in Canada. The RCMP is letting far right terrorists slip by. For example the extremist who tried to assassinate Trudeau in the summer; he got all the way to Rideau Hall with a truck full of guns. Then there was the Canadian Forces reservist, neo Nazi in Winnipeg. Even while the RCMP were (supposedly) watching him, the man escaped from Manitoba, then went into the US to join his right wing militia buddies. The FBI arrested him, thankfully.

The RCMP also failed to monitor or stop the Quebec mass shooter before he attacked that mosque.

Canada has a right wing terrorist problem and the police and RCMP are failing to stop them.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Don't know the details of what they were told.
> But the prosecutor should have never brought charges, they're ridiculous.


 ... the irony. So much for a guy who needs hard facts from others before he wants to believe their posts.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... the irony. So much for a guy who needs hard facts from others before he wants to believe their posts.


Apparently the evidence tampering is that they are claiming that they disabled the wifes gun before it was seized.

The facts are clear cut, they brandished firearms at trespassers, which is legal under the law in that state.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Regarding the thwarted far-right terrorist attack on Michigan. The accused terrorists were also engaging in firearms and explosives training.

I posted about this kind of terrorist behaviour a long time ago. There is a LOT of this going on in the US. The militias and extremists train themselves; they learn skills from their time serving in the military; and they have training camps.

One day, perhaps the USA will get serious about stopping terrorism and insurgents.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

They are facing 20 years in prison. People that stupid shouldn't have guns.

Don't worry James........Kamala is coming for their guns.

The US Federal government is responsible for homeland security across the entire US.

They could ban the open carry of guns anywhere outdoors. A temporary special permit could be issued for hunting.

That would end a lot of the militia antics of strutting around with loaded weapons threatening and harassing people.

You don't see fully armed militias walking the streets of Canadian cites.

Enough is enough.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

The leader of the group was a Trump hater according to his now deleted Twitter posts. Of course, that won't stop the media and the Democrats from portraying him in a manner that furthers their agenda.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Regarding the thwarted far-right terrorist attack on Michigan. The accused terrorists were also engaging in firearms and explosives training.
> 
> I posted about this kind of terrorist behaviour a long time ago. There is a LOT of this going on in the US. The militias and extremists train themselves; they learn skills from their time serving in the military; and they have training camps.
> 
> One day, perhaps the USA will get serious about stopping terrorism and insurgents.


They weren't right wing, they were anti-Whitmer, anti-facists opposing illegal government action.

You just label everything you don't like as "far right". You don't even have a definition of "far right".

I completely oppose political violence, I also oppose government officials acting illegally.
The problem the US is facing is various groups don't trust the government and law enforcement to act fairly, that's WHY they have out of control riots, and people attacking police and government officials.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is a photo of one of the militia group arrested standing with a guy who gave a speech at the GOP national convention a few months ago.

Alt right ties to Trump and the Republicans ?


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> There is a photo of one of the militia group arrested standing with a guy who gave a speech at the GOP national convention a few months ago.


So what. The Democrat candidate for vice president bailed violent protestors out of jail and many of them went on to commit more crimes.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I think it's important to note that you can oppose both this group, and the governor.


----------



## calm (May 26, 2020)

As the economy continues to collapse and the plans for martial law being imposed, we are going to be fed many of these Domestic Terrorism stories.

I am anxious to hear what actions the FBI informants did to encourage this terrorist plot.

Shocker: Only 1% of So Called Terrorists Nabbed by the FBI Were Real
A larger number of arrestees, poor and powerless, were caught in FBI "Threat Factory" stings.


http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/fbis-terror-scam



The FBI has a massive network of informants and currently maintains a roster of over 15,000 spies and earning as much as $100,000 per assignment.
And for every informant officially listed in the bureau's records, there are as many as three unofficial ones.

Regardless of their intentions, agents are sent in to converse within the community, find suspects that could potentially carry out “lone wolf” attacks and then, more or less, encourage them to do so. By providing weaponry, funds and a plan, FBI-directed agents will encourage otherwise-unwilling participants to plot out terrorist attacks, only to bust them before any events fully materialize.

If one thinks this through, it becomes clear that the FBI policy makers have confused thought and action. This is a very Judeo-Christian thing to do. Is the sin in the thought or the action? According to the Old Testament thought will do. You do not have to seduce your neighbor’s wife to break one of the Ten Commandments. All you have to do is “covet” her. To pursue the metaphor a bit further, who is it in the Bible stories who goes around and encourages sin, first in the mind and then in action? Adam and Eve might have occasionally thought about eating that apple, but who incited them to do so? Now we have the FBI reenacting this ancient storyline. They know that there are all these people with the sin of terrorism in their hearts. And, they have taken it upon themselves to play the role of the tempter and move these people from thought to action.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> They weren't right wing, they were anti-Whitmer, anti-facists opposing illegal government action.
> 
> You just label everything you don't like as "far right". You don't even have a definition of "far right".
> 
> ...


People seem inclined to label anarchists as 'left' when a popular slogan among them is that 'liberals get the bullet too'.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> People seem inclined to label anarchists as 'left' when a popular slogan among them is that 'liberals get the bullet too'.


I don't think anarchists are 'left', I think they're just [email protected]#$#@ disturbers, and it's easy for them to slide in with the lefties.
They're really distinct groups.
Anarchy is pretty much the opposite of the leftist authoritarian state.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

During my lifetime, each time the economy slowed down, civil unrest and attacks against government institutions take place.

.The late 60's was tense. I was 18 years old in 1966. I had quit grade 9, just 2 years earlier. The amount of police stop and frisk type interviews was huge. In 1965 I tried to cross into the U.S. at the Niagara Falls crossing and there was a good amount of police along that highway.

Then Nixon created the fiat currency (thus defaulting it's debt and in a sense declared bankruptcy)

The fiat currency allowed Nixon to finance the social programs that kids born just after WWII were demanding.

In the early 1970's calm arrived onto the streets of North America when Nixon went off the Gold Standard.

Today there are a zillion angry (bankrupt) people who want to strike out at government authority, Same thing as the 1970's.

And with a 25 Trillion Dollar debt.

Canada had the October Crisis in August 1970.

In Canada, Pierre Trudeau did the infrastructure progams and built community centers across the country.
Trudeau not only offered jobs, but encouraged people to "See Canada". If you did not have a job you could be a tourist. Hostels were opened all across the country, and you could stay overnight very cheaply.
You could go to an unemployment office in Toronto and tell them that you had a job offer and the government paid for train fare to get to the interview.
In Ontario, just talking about going to British Columbia was a dream of everybody walking along Yorkville Village in Toronto. (Gordon Lightfoot used to play on the street corner.)
Trudeau entertained us all with dreams of seeing Canada. Just Mushrooming Along.
I drove from Ontario to Edmonton in 1970 and there were hundreds of hitch hikers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Mandating the revocation of "open carry" laws on a national level under terrorist laws is a no-brainer.

After Rittenhouse, the McCloskeys, and these terrorists it has become even more obvious that US gun laws are deeply flawed.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

If I was 18 again and I was bankrupt and poor ..... And if I wanted to change the world ....

I would choose a date:

I would choose the first Monday of each month as an example. (Easy to remember)
If negotiations were not successful after the first 6 months, the protests would take place on both the first and second Monday of every month.

Instructions are:

Every protester commits an act of civil disobedience on the first Monday of each month. The act can occur during daylight or darkness and at any location of your choosing.

There is no need to confront authorities or police lines.
It might be as simple as Jay-Walking during rush hour causing chaos.
Perform the act of disobedience quietly and without bragging.
Use your imagination.
Just know that the 1st Monday will have millions of "Protest" incidents which prompt being noticed as an "Event".

Only fools would parade down a city street and confront police and think that they are protesting effectively.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Satire:

Man With 20 Rifles Can’t Remember If His Goal To Start Or Stop Violent Overthrow Of Government
May 22, 2018

Finding himself increasingly uncertain as to the purpose of his substantial cache of military-grade firearms, Billings resident Greg Carnes admitted Tuesday that he was unable to remember whether the 20 rifles he’d stockpiled were meant to aid in armed rebellion against the government or prevent the same. “I’m certain I got these guns for a patriotic purpose, and I know that I held strong feelings about that purpose at the time. I just wish I could remember exactly what it was,” said Carnes, opening his gun safe to inspect enough assault rifles to either outfit or destroy a small platoon in the hopes that doing so might jog his memory as to exactly why he was willing to go out in a blaze of gunfire and glory. “I mean, when Obama was president, they were for sure so I could overthrow the government. But now, I feel like it might be to defend it? Man, I sure don’t know. I got that ‘Don’t Tread On Me’ flag on my truck and all, but I can’t remember who that’s talking about either.” Carnes added that he was tentatively optimistic he could deduce the reason for his arms stockpile by flipping through his 6,000-page manifesto.








Man With 20 Rifles Can’t Remember If His Goal To Start Or Stop Violent Overthrow Of Government


BILLINGS, MO—Finding himself increasingly uncertain as to the purpose of his substantial cache of military-grade firearms, Billings resident Greg Carnes admitted Tuesday that he was unable to remember whether the 20 rifles he’d stockpiled were meant to aid in armed rebellion against the...




local.theonion.com


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> If I was 18 again and I was bankrupt and poor ..... And if I wanted to change the world ....
> 
> I would choose a date:
> 
> ...


Why don't we simply fix the bad laws?

Jaywalking is great choice, lets ignore it.
1. More injuries
2. less efficient traffic flow == more environmental damage.

So by hurting ourselves, and others we'll prove something?


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

Protests are not perfect. Protests are not like vaccines.

To protest means to create an "Event". A "Cultural Moment".

And the "Event" must financially affect the Upper Class.

As an example, Jay-Walking would totally shut down any city. No deliveries to business. Jay-Walking can be concentrated within Upper Class areas only and not allowing the Upper Class to enjoy their wealth. (Allowed to remain home to count their money but not enjoy it.)

Protests are not to "Prove" something. It is to win something.
Protesters are Lobbyists who wear a cheaper clothing line.
Citizen's United said that money is speech.
Protesters have a value much like a stock certificate. (The stock of a country.)

Protest "Parades" Are Over!

Lining up in a single file and parade toward enemy lines with bayonets drawn is so passe.

Parading around, night after continuous night determined to be martyrs while parading down Main Street and towards police lines which are "Militarized" is bizarre.

Suffer arrest which will retard your growth within society and have protesters being treated like a Suspect for a lifetime.

It is good TV but it cost the upper class zilch.

And maybe the next time you are walking down the street and grab a stick of chewing gum from your pocket, throw the wrapper onto the street because it creates work.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

sags said:


> Mandating the revocation of "open carry" laws on a national level under terrorist laws is a no-brainer.
> 
> After Rittenhouse, the McCloskeys, and these terrorists it has become even more obvious that US gun laws are deeply flawed.


Another speaker at the Republican National Convention is arrested for shooting someone. It seems to be a pattern.

It seems odd she has different aliases. It doesn't appear the convention did a very good job of vetting the speakers.

_A West Virginia nurse who was one of the featured speakers during this year’s Republican National Convention (RNC) was on Thursday reportedly arrested and charged in connection with a shooting which required another woman to be air-lifted to a hospital for surgery, according to reports from several local news outlets, including WSAZ-TV.

*Amy Johnson Ford*, 39, also known as *Amy Jolene Thorn* and *Amy Johnson*, the reports say, was detained by officers with the Williamson Police Department and charged with malicious wounding in the shooting of *Jonda Whitt*.

According to the criminal complaint filed in Mingo County Magistrate Court, a copy of which was obtained by the Williamson Daily News, Johnson and *Whitt got into a heated argument in the 800 block of Vinson St. when Johnson went to her vehicle, grabbed a handgun, and proceeded to shoot the other woman in the stomach. *









Nurse Who Praised Trump’s COVID Response at Republican National Convention is Under Arrest for Shooting Woman During Argument


A West Virginia nurse who was one of the featured speakers during this year's Republican National Convention (RNC) on Thursday was arrested and charged in connection with a shooting that sent another woman to the hospital.




lawandcrime.com




_


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There was a "parade" in the "The Villages" retirement community in Florida.

The normally pro-Republican community had a 500 golf cart parade escorting seniors to the polls to vote for Biden.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> Protests are not perfect. Protests are not like vaccines.
> 
> To protest means to create an "Event". A "Cultural Moment".
> 
> ...


Of course, it's easier to destroy than create.
But really your idea of constant Jay Walking.
The working class won't get to their jobs, they won't make money.
Protestors will get hurt, people will get angry.

Sure it will "hurt" the rich, but it will hurt others as well, if not more, and at the end of the day EVERYONE is worse off.

It sounds like it's all downside, why isn't anyone proposing actions that make things BETTER?


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> It sounds like it's all downside, why isn't anyone proposing actions that make things BETTER?


7 bucks a day is what they are offering Poor People in America.
A protest which shut down a city would bring the Upper Class to the negotiating table in the morning. 
Things will get better when both sides are at a negotiating table.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> There was a "parade" in the "The Villages" retirement community in Florida.
> 
> The normally pro-Republican community had a 500 golf cart parade escorting seniors to the polls to vote for Biden.


 ... I don't think the Dump is worried as he claimed he "loved" his people and them too in his latest on the balcony speech.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

The Barbarians Are Threatening Us!

That generation lived at a period of relative cultural cohesion and social stability – and rarely was called upon to make sacrifice or to endure hardship. It was the era of one ‘easy-decision’ after the other, building up to an ethos that put personal liberty above every other value, including social obligation.

The emerging generations of today, David Brooks argues in The Atlantic, “enjoy none of that sense of security. They grew up in a world in which institutions failed, financial systems collapsed, and families were fragile. Yet human beings need a basic sense of security in order to thrive, as the political scientist Ronald F. Inglehart puts it: their “values and behaviour are shaped by the degree to which survival is secure””.








America Is Having a Moral Convulsion


Levels of trust in this country—in our institutions, in our politics, and in one another—are in precipitous decline. And when social trust collapses, nations fail. Can we get it back before it’s too late?




www.theatlantic.com





“The values of the Millennial and Gen Z generations that will dominate in the years ahead are the opposite of Boomer values: not liberation, but security; not freedom, but equality; not individualism, but the safety of the collective; not sink-or-swim meritocracy, but promotion on the basis of social justice … Distrustful people try to make themselves invulnerable, armour themselves up in a sour attempt to feel safe … start to see threats that aren’t there.”
By Alastair Crooke
October 12, 2020








The Barbarians Are Threatening Us!


Now, as we enter the final month of the U.S. election, the expected climax to long-buried animosities is at hand. It is unlikely to be…




www.strategic-culture.org


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