# Benefits or social assistance for my retiring father?



## mrwwong (Feb 13, 2017)

Dear all,

I am new to this forum. I apologize if this is not the right place to post this question.

Here's my situation. My dad immigrated to Canada in 1989 and became a Canadian citizen in 1993. He started a business in Toronto in 1990 and sold it in 1995, as it was losing money. In 1995, he moved back to Hong Kong and worked in China ever since.

He is turning 68 and he plans to come back to Toronto at the end of 2017. I have just found that he is not eligible for Old Age Security because he has not lived in Canada for at least 10 years. Neither is he eligible for Guaranteed Income Supplement or any allowance because these require him to be eligible for OAS.

Here are my questions:
1) My dad does not own any property. He does not have any pension plan. Is there any social assistance or allowances he can receive?
2) Does it mean that he will be able to receive OAS after he lives in Canada for a total of 10 years? (i.e., living in Canada for another 4 to 5 years to reach the 10-year requirement)
3) Which government department(s) shall I contact if I want to clarify all the details about my dad's situation?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Why should the government look after him? He probably has never paid any income tax due to his business failure and was only a citizen while living here for 2 years. I welcome people to this wonderful country of ours and support helping those in need but do not support any thought that this is a place to come and live and be looked after by then government. If he does receive a full full ride from the government then its time for a change. Suggest his family should be prepared to pay his living expenses including health care. 
I apologize if I have offended anyone with my post.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Generally speaking, government assistance is supposed to theoretically be self funding. This means people who claim benefits are supposed to have contributed to the program from which they are claiming (hence the requirement to live in Canada for a certain time before being eligible). 

If Canada simply gave out benefits to everyone over 65, what would prevent people from other countries from simply moving here to retire? It would bankrupt the country. 

From what you've said, your father has not really contributed much, if anything, towards the Canadian tax system, and thus won't be eligible to receive any benefits. He would most likely be expected to be supported by family.


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

Not to be cruel, but I'm with the rest here. Your father's situation is exactly what the rules are set up to guard against. Someone comes here works for a couple of years, and gets decades worth of social assistance. That really isn't fair to the tax payers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

As a Canadian citizen he should be able to receive social assistance from the Province. It is administered by the municipality.

In Ontario it is called the Ontario Works program. It appears that people over the age of 65 are eligible to collect benefits and are exempt from the Participation requirement.

"_*You are not required to participate in employment-related activities if you are 65 years old or older,* are caring for a child who is less than school age, or if you have a serious illness or disability. _" Note......the link and information is NOT to a government website. It is a site that offers information to female victims of abuse about the Ontario Works program.

http://owjn.org/owjn_2009/jasons-test-submenu-page/65

He should also be able to receive OAS/GIS when he reaches the 10 year of residency milestone.

Canada has reciprocal agreements with other countries that can be used to qualify for benefits in Canada.

I don't know if China is a signatory to the agreement though.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions/cpp/cpp-international/eligibility.html

Note........apparently there is a limited agreement with China, but it appears to only involve employees who are sent to China by their employers. 

You would have to check with the CRA on your father's eligibility for these matters.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=958079


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

As a general question to the forum members.

If a person in Canada, who never left Canada but struggled throughout their lives with addictions and other problems and didn't qualify for any CPP pension, reaches old age..........what benefits do they have to live on ?

OAS/GIS/GAINS........? Could people survive on that income ?

What do we do about people who "fall through the cracks" in our system ?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I know nothing about GAINS but there could be a small minority of people who are limited to OAS/GIS and that is pretty close to poverty level ($1442/mo for someone who qualifies for full OAS). I have opined many times in forums that OAS and GIS needs to be overhauled to re-distribute that pool of money to those that need it more. As it is, it borders on largesse to give senior couples potentially up to $150k of income, full quotas of OAS without any clawback, while at the same time having a small GIS program which only applies to seniors. OAS needs to be rolled way back in terms of income levels when clawback starts and is fully clawed back, and clawback needs to be based on family income (not individual income). That would provide a bucket of money (not needed by fat cat seniors) for an overhauled GIS program with higher benefits AND not make it age based, or at least rolled back to age 50 or so when the unskilled may develop physical disabilities that prevents them from physical labour. The objective should be to raise poverty level benefits to a survivable income without discrimination due to age.

Some will argue that would take away the incentive to work. I don't believe so if the benefit level is only at that level that prevents true homelessness and starvation. Even the poor strive to have a cell phone these days.

Edited: To qualify the $1442/mo The OP's father won't (and shouldn't) qualify for that level of assistance due to his lack of having contributed to Canada for the requisite period of time albeit as Sags says, there may be some reciprocal arrangements for some pittance. There should not be any expectation of Canadian benefits at this time.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

sags said:


> As a general question to the forum members.
> If a person in Canada, who never left Canada but struggled throughout their lives with addictions and other problems and didn't qualify for any CPP pension, reaches old age..........what benefits do they have to live on ?
> OAS/GIS/GAINS........? Could people survive on that income ?
> What do we do about people who "fall through the cracks" in our system ?


Speaking only from our experience - an older family member with modest ~$300/mo CPP at age 60 and similar from a modest pension: They applied for Ontario Works (= welfare) to start a disability assessment process. Paid some until CPP began, then it is clawed back. It does allow for some basic prescription coverage I believe. Spoke with and went through a disability app process but that 'got lost' and has never gone anywhere. Hoping for some OAS/GIS when they do turn 65.
This is a person who worked in a trade and then drove taxi for many years, but lost 2 homes and has personal care and health problems, etc. Would like to work but don't seem to realize they are unemployable due to these issues and age. They have some sort of disability re/ holding a job, finances/money but it was never formally diagnosed when they were younger.

What is the solution? In our case, it was to retreive them from a filthy basement in a so-called friend's townhouse who was about to kick them out, and to buy a small bungalow for them to live in. It costs me about $700/mo to maintain them re/ property taxes/utilities/etc. 

So indeed - you need to either be personally successful and look after yourself, or be formally diagnosed with a disability/addiction and let the system look after you - otherwise you will be 'in between', falling through the cracks in retirement.
I suppose the other possibility is to have family who will look after you.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our system needs a line item analysis and changes. It is one messed up system right now.

People on social assistance can't become students........what ?

People who get laid off and qualify for EI, but who want to try to make it with their own business for awhile, lose the opportunity to file for EI if it is beyond 30 days from their layoff date.........what ?

Why do we punish people for trying to avoid or get off benefit systems ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My own opinion is there are a lot of people who earn a good living administrating all these benefits and don't recommend any changes.

And politicians love the opportunity to take taxpayer money and spread it around.......appearing benevolent and caring in the process.

A single guaranteed income would eliminate a lot of agency jobs and politicians would have to find "election goodies" somewhere else.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Economics 101: 

Give more money to the poor ... and you will get more people that are poor. If that is the objective, knock yourself out.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

sags said:


> As a general question to the forum members.
> 
> If a person in Canada, who never left Canada but struggled throughout their lives with addictions and other problems and didn't qualify for any CPP pension, reaches old age..........what benefits do they have to live on ?
> 
> ...



I can see your heart in the right place, and you should be commended for it. However, there is a VAST difference between someone who struggled with a mental or physical ailment vs someone who didn't make money at a business and left the country. Question is, if Canada wasn't good enough for the OP's father back then, why is it any better now? 

The OP is probably in his 40s or 50s now, and should step up and help his dad out, instead of looking for a handout. I'm not trying to be offensive or cold hearted either, but let's get real.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

If he was living and working here for 6 years, he may have some CPP benefits, unless his income was all off-book and unreported. But it won't be very much.

Try starting here for CPP,OAS, GIS. https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/publicpensions.html

I believe it is correct that after he has accumulated 10 years of residency he would qualify for OAS, but it will only be partial (25%) I think GIS is also pro-rated. So there is not likely to be any great bonanza coming.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

STech said:


> I can see your heart in the right place, and you should be commended for it. However, there is a VAST difference between someone who struggled with a mental or physical ailment vs someone who didn't make money at a business and left the country. Question is, if Canada wasn't good enough for the OP's father back then, why is it any better now?
> 
> The OP is probably in his 40s or 50s now, and should step up and help his dad out, instead of looking for a handout. I'm not trying to be offensive or cold hearted either, but let's get real.


I refrained from the moral judgement in my reply to the OP, although I did consider that his father is a Canadian citizen and is therefore entitled to any benefit available to him. I am wondering how the government decided that 10 years of residency in Canada should qualify someone to collect OAS as it seems a rather minimal requirement......but it is what it is.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

OptsyEagle said:


> Economics 101:
> 
> Give more money to the poor ... and you will get more people that are poor. If that is the objective, knock yourself out.


There is a school of economic thought that giving money to poor people is a more effective strategy than continuing with a system where the majority of the wealth flows to 1/10th of 1% of the population.

That is a topic for another day and isn't likely to change, at least in the US where billionaires have taken up residence in all the seats of power in the White House.


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## STech (Jun 7, 2016)

sags said:


> I refrained from the moral judgement on my reply to the OP, although I did consider that his father is a Canadian citizen and is therefore entitled to any benefit available to him.


I agree with you, but you also raised a great question about someone with disabilities that has lived their whole lives in Canada. I don't think you're gonna have too many people arguing against helping out someone legitimately in need of help.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sorry, I edited my comment as you were replying.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

sags said:


> There is a school of economic thought that giving money to poor people is a more effective strategy than continuing with a system where the majority of the wealth flows to 1/10th of 1% of the population.
> 
> That is a topic for another day and isn't likely to change, at least in the US where billionaires have taken up residence in all the seats of power in the White House.


All I know is that in this case it seems that this individual could either stay in Hong Kong or come to Canada. Seems to me he is just looking to see who is the highest bidder before he decides. I suspect, with all our good hearted citizens like yourself, that Canada will win this bidding war, when compared to whatever he might be offered from China.

I will repeat myself. If you give more money to the poor people, you will get more poor people. I wish it were not the case, but it is.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

If the son wishes to have his father here in Canada then he should be willing to support him its the right thing to do. I'm sure there are many Canadians that wish there was more help as they support/subsidize aging parents.


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## Nerd Investor (Nov 3, 2015)

sags said:


> I refrained from the moral judgement in my reply to the OP, although I did consider that his father is a Canadian citizen and is therefore entitled to any benefit available to him. I am wondering how the government decided that 10 years of residency in Canada should qualify someone to collect OAS as it seems a rather minimal requirement......but it is what it is.


As noted above, 10 years doesn't give you full OAS. The OAS is pro-rated based on number of years resident after age 18 / 40 years. 10 years is just to get anything, and it would only be 25% (10/40).


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

sags said:


> As a general question to the forum members.
> 
> If a person in Canada, who never left Canada but struggled throughout their lives with addictions and other problems and didn't qualify for any CPP pension, reaches old age..........what benefits do they have to live on ?
> 
> ...


He would probably have to continue funding his retirement like he funded his drug habit. 

That would most likely be stealing from family, B&E's, shoplifting, panhandling, dealing drugs, and robbing other citizens that have worked hard to be productive members of society.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

sags said:


> My own opinion is there are a lot of people who earn a good living administrating all these benefits and don't recommend any changes.
> 
> And politicians love the opportunity to take taxpayer money and spread it around.......appearing benevolent and caring in the process.
> 
> A single guaranteed income would eliminate a lot of agency jobs and politicians would have to find "election goodies" somewhere else.


 There is already enough people sneaking across the boarder. Europe is a mess from immigrates coming for free handouts as they rape their women throw rocks @ the men as they destroy property. Minimum wage will not allow those to work that are not worth minimum wage then government wants them dependent on the government by tax payers supporting them with social programs. No free anything should be given away if need be community service for food & shelter. Get rid of janitors @ schools instead kids should be cleaning the schools so they learn how to be responsible for themselves when they get older. The way the system is set up there no incentive to be responsible & it is not being taught to kids.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I cannot imagine why you would think that someone who only lived in Canada for six years, and probably paid very little tax, should suddenly be entitled to to similar financial retirement benefits of others who have worked and paid taxes in Canada for an extended period of time or all of their lives. I believe the minimum requirement is 10 years in Canada post age 18.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^

Is there somewhere the OP expressed outrage about the rules that were discovered?


It sounds more to me that the OP is in Canada, assumed the benefits would be the same, discovered the benefits aren't and is trying to make sure that the other extreme (i.e. assuming no benefits are available when there may be some) is not the second mistake made.


Cheers


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