# Can anyone help solve a LRSP Jurisdiction puzzle?



## Mazilla (May 4, 2016)

There seems to be some confusion on the governing jurisdiction for our LRSP and I am not sure how to determine it ( and so is our financial institution) I assumed that they could "look it up" but that doesn't seem to be the case.

The funds were withdrew from a pension upon termination of employment to an LRSP. Here is the confusing part ........ my husband worked for a provincial Company in BC that was purchased by a national Company and the pension fund was taken into their federally regulated fund, not sure if this transition was totally completed before we "jumped ship" 10 years ago but the pension fund now shows as federal when searched on OSFI website and does not show up as registered in the province of BC. We wish to convert & exercise the one time 50% unlocking rule that exists on Federally Regulated Plans but not in BC. So who's rules govern ? Can we unlock ? (age 55 this year) The financial Institution Looked at us like we were speaking alien and have been "checking into it" for a week- which in itself doesn't install allot of confidence in them !


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Can you call the pension manager?

From what I have seen in articles, it seems that whatever the authority was when one left the plan (provincial or Federal). Determining the status seems to be the key issue.

I assume you have already confirmed that none of BC's unlocking provisions apply in your case.
http://www.taxtips.ca/pensions/rpp/unlockingrpp.htm


Cheers


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I wouldn't call myself an expert on pensions, but it is my understanding that the only Federal regulated pensions are for Federal government workers or workers from Crown corporations (like the Bank of Canada, etc.).

Even if your pension is run by a company that has a national reach (operations in many provinces), it is my understanding that the pension rules governing it will be dictated by the provincial government from where the pensioner lived when they were contributing to it. From what you have said, I would expect your legislation to be governed by the Province of BC.


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## Mazilla (May 4, 2016)

Thanks for your reply, None of the BC unlocking rules apply and I am not sure why the bank can't seem to find an answer to my question. One would assume that is registered as either a provincial or federally regulated fund and a few key strokes on their computer should answer that ????


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## Mazilla (May 4, 2016)

it was transfered to CN Rail which is Federal Transportation


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

OptsyEagle said:


> I wouldn't call myself an expert on pensions, but it is my understanding that the only Federal regulated pensions are for Federal government workers or workers from Crown corporations (like the Bank of Canada, etc.).
> 
> ....


FYI, it's more than just federal public service and Federal Crown Corps. It's "Federal Works & Undertakings", which encompasses a number of federally-regulated industries such as interprovincial rail; aviation; banking; telecommunications; etc., even though they may be privately owned.

CN Rail would be federal, and OP seems certain he was originally with a provincial employer.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Mazilla said:


> ... The financial Institution Looked at us like we were speaking alien and have been "checking into it" for a week- which in itself doesn't install allot of confidence in them !


Be reasonable. How long do you think it would have taken you to get an answer from your former employers after 10 years? This should have been communicated to the bank at the time LRSP was set up, so perhaps they are at fault for not having it more clearly identified. So now they have to go 10 years back into their own archives to determine what they were told.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

When the funds were trasferred from the pension manager, to the LRSP, the paperwork is to indicate what pension jurisdiction the LRSP is to be governed under. Your bank should have a copy of this paperwork and it should be on the computer profile of your LRSP at the bank. If the branch can't access this, their rsp dept at head office should.
Just ask them what pension jurisdiction your LRSP is under. They have to know this to convert your LRSP to an LRIF when the time comes

The current registration or jurisdiction of the pension plan has no bearing on this.

I would try calling the the banks telephone help line. They should be able to give you this info or at very least a number for a department that can
It appears you have run into any an inexperienced staff member at the branch.

Otherwise as OGG suggested, they will have to access the original paperwork, which by the way if only 10 years ago should be digitally imaged and easy to access. Unless you are dealing with CIBC or BoM.  in which case good luck.

Cheers
J


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## gimme_divies (Feb 12, 2011)

I would recommend calling OSFI. I used to work there years ago and people would call all the time asking about unlocking rules on their federally regulated plans. If things are the same as they were (I was there 10 years ago), you can usually obtain direct access to one of the pension analysts who will likely be able to answer your questions. Worst case, I would think they could confirm whether or not your plan is federally regulated.

By Telephone

OSFI offers a toll-free telephone number for public enquiries in Canada. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday, between 8:30 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. (Eastern Time).

Telephone: 1-800-385-8647
Local information number (Ottawa-Gatineau): (613) 943-3950
TTY services: (613) 943-3980

To access OSFI employees' telephone numbers, please search the Government of Canada Employee Directory via Government Electronic Directory Services (GEDS)


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

OptsyEagle said:


> I wouldn't call myself an expert on pensions, but it is my understanding that the only Federal regulated pensions are for Federal government workers or workers from Crown corporations (like the Bank of Canada, etc.).


My understanding is that those covered by the Feds are a much larger group such as banks, airlines, insurance companies to name a few.




OptsyEagle said:


> Even if your pension is run by a company that has a national reach (operations in many provinces), it is my understanding that the pension rules governing it will be dictated by the provincial government from where the pensioner lived when they were contributing to it ...


YMMV is my understanding ... and matches my experience as I was asked when transferring my pension funds to a LIRA that I was setting up, whether the pension was under provincial or federal pension legislation.

It seems even for provincially registered pensions, YMMV as the Nova Scotia gov't web site says:


> Employers must register their pension plan in the province in which the majority of the plan members report to work. For example, a large company in Nova Scotia might have a pension plan with members employed in New Brunswick. If the majority of the members are employed in Nova Scotia, then the plan is registered here. Nova Scotia must ensure that the plan applies Nova Scotia law to Nova Scotia members, and New Brunswick law to New Brunswick members.
> 
> *If you work in one province and your pension plan is registered in another, you are still subject to the pension legislation of the province in which you work.*


http://www.novascotia.ca/finance/en/home/pensions/regulation.aspx


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Here are some interesting Federally regulated pensions ...

Pension Plan for Employees of Agribrands Purina Canada Inc.
The Allstream Defined Contribution Pension Plan
The American Airlines Canadian Pension Plan
AT&T Global Services Canada Co. Retirement Plan
The Retirement Plan for Employees of Canadian Utilities Limited & Participating Companies - Plan 2
Atlantic Provinces Trucking Association Defined Contribution Pension Plan
Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ (Canada) Pension Plan
Bell Aliant,
Bell Aliant Pension Plan (Newfoundland),
Bell Canada Pension Plan
CHUM Defined Benefit Pension Plan
I.A.M. Multi-Employer Pension Plan (Canada) 
Retirement Plan for Brink's Group Companies in Canada
British Columbia Maritime Employees Association Retirement Plan 
British Columbia Terminal Elevator Industry Pension Plan
Bruce Power Pension Plan
National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union Members' Pension Plan (i.e. CAW)
Cameco Corporation Employee Pension Plan
Canadian Helicopters Limited Employees' Pension Plan
Pension Plan for Bargaining Unit Employees of Wabush Mines, Cliffs Mining Company, Managing Agent
Nutreco Canada Inc. Employees' Retirement Plan 200
Teamsters and Participating Employers of Ontario Pension Plan
Trans-Northern Pipelines Inc./Pipelines Trans-Nord Inc. Employees' Pension Plan
United Parcel Service Canada Ltd. Retirement Plan
Pension Plan for Employees of the Vector Aerospace Group of Companies


While the 1031 pensions that are federally regulated are a drop in the bucket of the total 17,704 registered plans - there seems to be a fair number of private groups who are not gov't or crown corps.

It makes me wonder if like choosing to incorporate provincially or federally, there is some choice.


Cheers


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

gimme_divies said:


> I would recommend calling OSFI. )


I don't think this will solve the OP's problem. What she doesnt know is whether the transfer from her husbands orignal pension plan which is provincial, to the new aquiring pension which is federally regulated, happened before or after the transfer out of his pension, to his LRSP. OFSI has no way of knowing this.

Re pension jurisdiction. There are certain industries, banks railroads airlines etc that must be federally regulated if they have a pension. I would suspect that there may be some that must be provincially regulated.
Other corporations do have some choice.
Pension regulations are complex and often arcane.


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## gimme_divies (Feb 12, 2011)

twa2w said:


> I don't think this will solve the OP's problem. What she doesnt know is whether the transfer from her husbands orignal pension plan which is provincial, to the new aquiring pension which is federally regulated, happened before or after the transfer out of his pension, to his LRSP. OFSI has no way of knowing this.
> 
> Re pension jurisdiction. There are certain industries, banks railroads airlines etc that must be federally regulated if they have a pension. I would suspect that there may be some that must be provincially regulated.
> Other corporations do have some choice.
> Pension regulations are complex and often arcane.


Ah, I did not quite grasp the nuance of the issue - thanks for clearing it up. OSFI could at least know when the transfer to federal jurisdiction would have occurred, providing part of the answer. I don't recall whether the OP knows when the transfer of funds out of the pension plan happened - this would the other piece of the puzzle. 

How are FIs normally supposed to know the eligible retirement date anyway? My mom's LRSP jumped around to a few FIs before she converted it to a LIF through Questrade - she was eligible at 55, but I am not sure how Questrade knew this. Are the FIs supposed to get this information from wherever the funds are originating each time an account is setup? My feeling is that the FIs are supposed to enforce the rules, but in most cases don't have the info and there is no oversight, so they can really do what they want.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gimme_divies said:


> Ah, I did not quite grasp the nuance of the issue - thanks for clearing it up. OSFI could at least know when the transfer to federal jurisdiction would have occurred, providing part of the answer. I don't recall whether the OP knows when the transfer of funds out of the pension plan happened - this would the other piece of the puzzle.
> 
> How are FIs normally supposed to know the eligible retirement date anyway? My mom's LRSP jumped around to a few FIs before she converted it to a LIF through Questrade - she was eligible at 55, but I am not sure how Questrade knew this. Are the FIs supposed to get this information from wherever the funds are originating each time an account is setup? M*y feeling is that the FIs are supposed to enforce the rules, but in most cases don't have the info and there is no oversight, so they can really do what they want*.


 ... ask the "plan administrator (PA)" who has a fudiciary duty to properly administer the plan and its funds. The PA needs to know this info otherwise how else will they allow the proper transfer of funds to a LIRA/LRSP, etc. that a plan member sets up with a FI.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

gimme_divies said:


> ... How are FIs normally supposed to know the eligible retirement date anyway?


This might be another nuance ... from what I read and my experience with leaving a pension plan where a locked in account received some of pension plan proceeds, the FI does not need to know the retirement date as leaving the pension plan makes it irrelevant. The FI does need to know what rules the pension was under at the time of the transfer so that should the registered account holder ask for something like "I am now age 52, please unlock 50% of the locked in registered plan as per Federal regulations", they can either say "it was registered as a Federal plan so sure" or "it was registered as a BC provincial plan so, BC does not allow this ... sorry".




gimme_divies said:


> ... My mom's LRSP jumped around to a few FIs before she converted it to a LIF through Questrade - she was eligible at 55, but I am not sure how Questrade knew this.


I would have to do more detailed digging but I am not sure there is big differences in terms of converting to a LIF as age 55 is a pretty common age to be allowed to start retirement income for many plans. The key part of "locked" is not withdrawals allowed, unlike the RRSP. The conversion to a LIF means withdrawals within set limits (both minimum and maximum).

Where I am aware of big differences and what the OP is concerned about, is that under BC regulations - the OP does not meet the four or so criteria that allow the LRSP to be unlocked. The Federal pension legislation allows everyone under their rules to unlock 50% at age 55.





gimme_divies said:


> ... Are the FIs supposed to get this information from wherever the funds are originating each time an account is setup?


What appears to matter is what rules the pension is under, which would then determine what rules the locked in account is under. The FI should be keeping themselves apprised as to the various provincial and federal rules.




gimme_divies said:


> ... My feeling is that the FIs are supposed to enforce the rules, but in most cases don't have the info and there is no oversight, so they can really do what they want.


It was a specific question I was asked when opening the locked in account to hold the pension proceeds. It was asked again when I asked for the proceeds from another pension to be added to the same locked in account.

http://retirehappy.ca/unlocking-pension-money-getting-money/


It looks to me that oversight is after the fact, like the RRSP contributions or a TFSA over-contribution and probably is contributing to the delay by the FI. The forms had to be filed with the gov't for the locked in account where the pension money went into plus the employer's pension has to register with the appropriate authorities. The matching then spitting out an exception by CRA might not happen for a while but I expect that a disconnect would eventually be noticed.


Cheers


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

gimme_divies said:


> How are FIs normally supposed to know the eligible retirement date anyway? My mom's LRSP jumped around to a few FIs before she converted it to a LIF through Questrade - she was eligible at 55, but I am not sure how Questrade knew this. Are the FIs supposed to get this information from wherever the funds are originating each time an account is setup? My feeling is that the FIs are supposed to enforce the rules, but in most cases don't have the info and there is no oversight, so they can really do what they want.


FI's keep track of which pension rules ( which province or federal) a LIF or lrsp fall under when transferring from a pension plan or if transferring to or from another FI. The details of the actual pension plan don't matter so much because the FI just has to follow the jurisdiction's rules. Ie for xx province, if regulations allow early retirement under a pension at 55, then the FI can allow conversion to a LIF at 55 even if the original plan was somehat different.
Most FI's are very careful with the rules even though there is not a lot of direct oversight. The penalties can be nasty if they get caught offside. 
At ine time when things were more manual, you could often get the locked in designation to be lost by moving the funds several times between institutions. I have had this happen to me many years sg but it won't happen today.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^^

To add to this ... when I open up the Scotia iTrade "Registered Account and TFSA Transfer From Another Financial Institution Request Form", in the section for the FI that is sending the LRSP to Scotia iTrade, in addition to the run of the mill things like "name", "SIN" and "Amount" - there is *Governing Legislation* and *Original Pension Plan Name*.

In the "Account Transfer Client Disclosure" section:


> *Locked In Accounts:*
> These accounts generally take longer to transfer, as additional documents are required under various Provincial and Federal Pension Legislation in order for the Receiving Institution to administer the account. The account opened at the Receiving Institution must be opened as LOCKED IN, and administered in accordance with the same Provincial or Federal Legislation as your current account. Failure to provide the required locked-in plan information will delay the transfer of your account.


CIBC Investor's Edge form has this twice, once in the client section and once in the "Sending FI" section.


I would bet that Questrade's forms also have it.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

twa2w said:


> ... The details of the actual pension plan don't matter so much because the FI just has to follow the jurisdiction's rules. Ie for xx province, if regulations allow early retirement under a pension at 55, then the FI can allow conversion to a LIF at 55 even if the original plan was somehat different ...


Hmmm ... the three or four pensions I have belonged to have allowed the pension to be started at age 55. So this age for the conversion to a LIF does not seem like a difference.

Most pension members are looking for the maximum pension $$ so they tend to be talking age 62 to age 65. At this later date, the earned $$ are paid as-is where the earlier age 55 means the earned $$$ are reduced to account for the extra years of the pension being paid.


Anyone have a pension that can't be paid at age 55?


Cheers


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## Mazilla (May 4, 2016)

I thought it would just be on file as well and when I told them I believed it to be federally regulated they said they would check into it. Now my bank advisor sent me an email saying that they "agreed it appeared to be federal and made application to have the jurisdiction changed to federal" and would inform me when it was completed - I would think that to mean they did it wrong in the first place? Who would they be applying to ?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

If they are applying to have it changed then it is reasonable to think they did have it on file but as being under the provincial legislation. The paperwork for the change likely goes to the gov't, the same as the paperwork to setup the LRSP.

Without knowing when the LRSP was setup, when the pension was switched to federal legislation and what the current rules are for such conversions (rules do change) - it is a guess as to whether there were mistakes made and/or when the mistake happened.


The good news is that it you were asking about it and that it appears that as long as the gov't agrees, you should be able to do what you want.


Cheers


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## Mazilla (May 4, 2016)

It shows the value of being informed, had we not done the research and gotten advice from awesome sites such as this errors would of passed unchecked. Makes me wonder if the application is sent to the government how long of a process this might be.......


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Mazilla said:


> *It shows the value of being informed, had we not done the research and gotten advice from awesome sites such as this errors would of passed unchecked.* Makes me wonder if the application is sent to the government how long of a process this might be.......


 ... and what are so-called pension experts doing, or getting big bucks to do?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Which pension experts are you thinking would be reviewing a personal locked in account for an individual?
Or are you thinking the OP should have hired a pension expert to review the situation?

The locked-in account means one has forged off on their own so I am not clear on where the big bucks or the pension experts are thought to be.


Cheers


*PS*

Now a newspaper or magazine interviewing a pension expert to update their readers ... that I can see.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ How about pension plan administrator (and I'm not talking about a one person shop) ====> HR ====> pension plan administrator?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

I believe that was suggested in post #2 but AFAICT, to date has not been followed up on.


Of course there will be limits as to what can be asked as this is similar to an investor calling to find out info for an investment that has been sold. Or perhaps a better analogy would be someone who has sold their MF units then bought ETFs. 


Cheers


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> I believe that was suggested in post #2 but AFAICT, to date has not been followed up on.


 .... would a blurb as simple as "this pension is regulated by the federal or whatever provincial pension act" not be sufficient instead of sending a member to enquire all around town?




> Of course there will be limits as to what can be asked as this is similar to an investor calling to find out info for an investment that has been sold. Or perhaps a better analogy would be someone who has sold their MF units then bought ETFs.
> 
> Cheers


 ... no analogy here - not comparable. There is a thing called "fudiciary duty" under a pension plan - members do not draft up this rule.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> .... would a blurb as simple as "this pension is regulated by the federal or whatever provincial pension act" not be sufficient instead of sending a member to enquire all around town?


The OP knows that before jumping ship the pension was under provincial legislation so it would seem the pension info included such a blurb. 

The questionable area was whether the departure ten years or more ago was before or after the change to being under the federal legislation for the pension plan. The pension administrator likely has no idea of any of this because it seems that no one has talked them. Similarly, they have not "sent" anyone anywhere to make inquiries. 


I was suggesting contacting them as that would help nail down some of the details that the FI seemed concerned about.




Beaver101 said:


> ... no analogy here - not comparable. There is a thing called "fudiciary duty" under a pension plan - members do not draft up this rule.


You expect the pension administrator to keep current contact info for non-members, who won't be paid a pension, for ten plus years?

Then at the ten year mark for ex-member A and at the twenty-five year mark for member B - guess that they may want to unlock whatever the current account is? Then they call them up to advise them or send them a letter?

That is quite the expectation.


Cheers


*PS*

Wouldn't one find it creepy to get a call "we don't owe you anything, we don't have any of your money, we know the account the money went to but not necessarily where it is now and what we don't know what you are planning ... but here's something to think about"?


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## Mazilla (May 4, 2016)

I have contacted the Plan Administrator who informed me that it is indeed federal. They do have the files and copies can be retrieved from archives. It appears the FI had designated incorrectly when the account was originally opened 11 years ago and now application has been made to change that designation. Furthermore, the same FI designated the second pension wrong as well ( yes two, both arising from resigning from CN after they bought two different companies in two different provinces ! ) Now we just have to see how long the red tape is to fix it.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> The OP knows that before jumping ship the pension was under provincial legislation so it would seem the pension info included such a blurb.
> 
> The questionable area was whether the departure ten years or more ago was before or after the change to being under the federal legislation for the pension plan. *The pension administrator likely has no idea of any of this because it seems that no one has talked them.* Similarly, they have not "sent" anyone anywhere to make inquiries.


 ... well, that's even worst - a confirmation that the PA hasn't been fullfilling its duty in keeping up to date (aka changes) with the plan as it supposedly be.



> I was suggesting contacting* them *as that would help nail down some of the details that the FI seemed concerned about.


 ... whose "them" were you referring to on contacting? Or did I miss your mention of the PA in your up posts? 



> You expect the pension administrator to keep current contact info for non-members, who won't be paid a pension, for ten plus years?
> 
> Then at the ten year mark for ex-member A and at the twenty-five year mark for member B - guess that they may want to unlock whatever the current account is? Then they call them up to advise them or send them a letter?
> 
> That is quite the expectation


. ... I didn't say anything about "contact info" of the ex-member ... all I'm saying is the PA should have current information (including all changes) on the pension plan readily available for ex-members (or non-current members) to make enquiries or the expectation of doing its job or "f-duty".



Cheers


*PS*



> Wouldn't one find it creepy to get a call "we don't owe you anything, we don't have any of your money, we know the account the money went to but not necessarily where it is now and what we don't know what you are planning ... but here's something to think about"?


... boo! it's Halloween! Poor PA/HR. :biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Mazilla said:


> *I have contacted the Plan Administrator who informed me that it is indeed federal.* They do have the files and copies can be retrieved from archives. *It appears the FI had designated incorrectly *when the account was originally opened 11 years ago and now application has been made to change that designation. Furthermore, the same FI designated the second pension wrong as well ( yes two, both arising from resigning from CN after they bought two different companies in two different provinces ! ) Now we just have to see how long the red tape is to fix it.


 ... :encouragement:

Good luck on the fix - it'll just take some time - an amendment of sort. But at least you now know for sure as to what set of unlocking rules to follow (which you were simply trying to find out) - federal as confirmed by the PA. Now wouldn't that saved you alot of time? But on the flipside, it was good to have you post here with your enquiry.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... well, that's even worst - a confirmation that the PA hasn't been fullfilling its duty in keeping up to date (aka changes) with the plan as it supposedly be ... all I'm saying is the PA should have current information (including all changes) on the pension plan readily available for ex-members (or non-current members) to make enquiries or the expectation of doing its job or "f-duty".


Based on post #28 ... it looks like the PA did have current info, did have the archived ex-member's info (i.e. what legislation the LRSP should have been registered under) and when contacted, did respond to an ex-member's question.

... which makes my responses pointing out assumptions moot.


Cheers


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## Mazilla (May 4, 2016)

Now that i solved the first part of the puzzle ........... the designation has been changed to Federal. Now my FI sends an email saying: "the law says you "must be at least 55 years of age in the calendar year the unlocking is completed". That means we can complete the unlocking anytime after his 55th birthday which is December, 2016."

Here is the pasted Quote from the OSFI 

"One-time 50% unlocking: In the calendar year you turn 55 or in any subsequent year, you are allowed to transfer 50% of your funds into a tax-deferred savings vehicle, from which you can then withdraw cash."

To me that means if born in 1961 can transfer any time in 2016 - FI says he thinks it means after his Birthday ? 

Anyone ?? Guess I call OSFI ?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

If it is OSFI that is setting the rules, then I would call OSFI.

They are the authority and likely the only source the FI will pay attention to.


Cheers


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## Mazilla (May 4, 2016)

> If it is OSFI that is setting the rules, then I would call OSFI.
> 
> They are the authority and likely the only source the FI will pay attention to.


Thank You, I called and the OSFI has confirmed that it is anytime in the calendar year of turning 55 : born in 1961 - anytime in 2016. I kinda feel bad that I keep telling the guy at the bank that he is wrong at every turn and having to correct him. In all fairness, this is perhaps a unique situation and it was it was not him that registered it wrong in the first place.


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