# Solar system for home



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Anybody running a home solar system?

I'm sitting on the fence with the quick estimates I've gotten from local companies for a small grid-tie home system of 3-4kw. I'll have some actual quotes coming in the next week or two but they can't install until next year in which the prices will likely go up.

A very rough ROI (with fed/prov grants) puts me roughly around 8-9 years. Plus there will be additional costs for a backup power system if I go that route. 

One company is using the newer bifacial panels so you can get more power per sq. ft. Reviews are saying the can be worthwhile but depends on the install.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

cainvest said:


> Anybody running a home solar system?
> 
> ...


We live off-grid and have powered our home with solar and wind for about 15 years. But grid-tie is very different, albeit probably worth it in many cases.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I am in a suburban location with almost perfect south facing roof that would allow about 11kW of panels. But I have very stable and reliable utility power. I have studied solar feasibility for the house since when MicroFIT was first announced by the McGinty govt. in Ontario. My past ROI estimates were in line with what you quote for a grid tie. Don't forget utility up front and annual connect charge in your estimates on effective returns.

I also have a large Norway Maple immediately south of the house that is about 45' tall. It provides a lot of summer sun shading. I have spoken a few years ago to a neighbor 8 houses down that has almost same south exposure and same house model with no tree, and he has over $350 more a year in air conditioning electricity costs. That tree if it dies will be what tips my hand to solar.

Before I go to rooftop solar I will be replacing my shingles. Yes they were new in 2008, and are in good shape, but I am not going to peel a solar system apart in its mid life to have to swap out end of life shingle down the line. That if added to system analysis costs shifts the ROl in the wrong direction


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

I've only got shade for very early morning and a bit late in the evening so non-issue there. 

Yes, monthly charges continue, only factoring in % of usage costs/savings per year. I would consider augmenting my gas heating with electric (via solar output only) in the winter to help recover costs. On the plus side I had new shingles put on this year.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> We live off-grid and have powered our home with solar and wind for about 15 years.


How has your solar system held up over that time for rated output and/or damage?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

cainvest said:


> How has your solar system held up over that time for rated output and/or damage?


Held up very well. Better than expected. For storage, we have a set of 8 Rolls Surrette Solar Batteries, 6V, 1156 AHr, Dual Wall Container, that cost about $1,300 apiece and each weighs about 325 lb. With a modicum of care, they are projected to remain in service for about 20 years. So we are about 75% of the way through their lifespan. No sign of weakening yet. Given current technology, I have been told that when replacement time comes, I should be looking at lithium ferro phosphate batteries. The rolls batteries are old school lead acid, but high quality.

The chargers, charge controllers, inverters, all made by Outback, perform as well as the solar panels. No change at all in output. I'd have to look, but I think the panels were made by Sharpe. They are not on the roof, but are in aluminum mounts and frames, bolted to a granite outcrop about 100 feet from the house. Not sure if panels covering a lot of roof in a wet west coast winter would promote roof longevity (or even be that great for the panels). And I don't want to have to get out an extension ladder to sweep the snow that sometimes sticks to the panels (not that snow is much of an issue here...but once in awhile).

For backup we have a 7.5 kw Kubota diesel generator that will fully charge the batteries if we have a long period of no sun or wind, or it can run all that's here (and more) directly if we flip a switch to bypass the batteries. We have put 326 hours on the 3-cyl. diesel engine in 15 years, so we don't burn a lot of diesel. Those engines are known to run for about 30,000 hours, so I think it will outlast me by a bit.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Ponderling said:


> Before I go to rooftop solar I will be replacing my shingles. Yes they were new in 2008, and are in good shape, but I am not going to peel a solar system apart in its mid life to have to swap out end of life shingle down the line. That if added to system analysis costs shifts the ROl in the wrong direction





cainvest said:


> On the plus side I had new shingles put on this year.


Not sure if solar shingles collect as much energy as traditional panels.

Best Solar Roof Shingles of 2022 | SaveOnEnergy®


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

londoncalling said:


> Not sure if solar shingles collect as much energy as traditional panels.
> 
> Best Solar Roof Shingles of 2022 | SaveOnEnergy®


Not solar shingles, regular ones. You never want to roof mount solar panels over old shingles.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Not solar shingles, regular ones. You never want to roof mount solar panels over old shingles.


Having been a residential contractor I understand asphalt has a lifespan and if they are nearing replacement it would not make sense to put up solar panels as they would need to be dismantled for the reroof. Has anyone compared the efficiency/cost on solar shingles vs reroof and solar panels? I am about 10 years out from replacing mine and I know things will have advanced by then, but it doesn't hurt to take an interest.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

I briefly looked at them but high cost, limited availability and lower efficiency knocked them off my list quickly. I also haven't ruled out a ground setup which solar shingles really wouldn't work on.

BTW, the new bifacial panels seem to be a nice upgrade from regular panels but I'm still gathering more real world data on them.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Thanks for sharing. Anything that favours aesthetic over function typically isn't as economical. Bifacial seem to be the way to go as they have a better efficiency rate than standard (mono facial) panels. I am a bit skeptical as I remember doing a ton of leaky skylight repair when I was doing residential renovations and repair. Mind you that was a lifetime ago and we do have better knowledge of building envelope. I know of several people that have ground units on their multiacre properties. I have a large lot but not enough room to install a rack of panels on the ground. I have also heard of solar film windows but my guess is that cost efficiency will take some time to evolve. 

An old link but does a good job in explaining a solar window system.

ZolarPanels™ built of Nxgen-Bifacial Panels™ (zolar-panels.com)


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

There are a number of factors that'll sway each of us one way or another. Many people don't want to roof mount for leaks, shingle warranty issues/repairs, extra weight load, cleaning hassles, etc. Others many not have space for a ground setup or want to pay the extra cost.

Here's a good video on bifacial panels with some test results.


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## prisoner24601 (May 27, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Anybody running a home solar system?
> 
> I'm sitting on the fence with the quick estimates I've gotten from local companies for a small grid-tie home system of 3-4kw. I'll have some actual quotes coming in the next week or two but they can't install until next year in which the prices will likely go up.
> 
> ...


I run a 12.2kW grid-tied system in NS. It was installed back in 2018 at a cost of $2.72/watt including HST. Simple payback is about 11 years. Not much change in annual output over the 4 years. Zero problems with the Enphase microinverters Hanwha Qcells panels


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

prisoner24601 said:


> I run a 12.2kW grid-tied system in NS.


Wow, that a fairly large setup. I gather it is ground based?


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

Could just be a big bungalow. I have a 30x30' 2 story house with a shed roof.
So only the south facing an squeeze in 11kW by my calcs

.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Ponderling said:


> Could just be a big bungalow.


I'm sure some have the roof top for a system like that.



Ponderling said:


> I have a 30x30' 2 story house with a shed roof.


And that leads to one of the biggest complaints for new solar system owners in snowy areas.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I have heard of coating face of panels with wetting agent like Rain Away, so snow can slide off easier.

In southern Ontario where I live a dump of snow is usually from a front of moist air coming from south and is often heavy and wet and so often would slide off panels on its own in a day or so in most cases.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Ponderling said:


> I have heard of coating face of panels with wetting agent like Rain Away, so snow can slide off easier.


Ohhhh, there are some good videos on the potential danger of snow/ice sliding off panels. Just make sure it is clear below.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

Don't forget to factor in the yearly insurance costs - liability, physical damage, time for lots of questions, etc. Tying into the grid can be an issue for some insurers. Freezing rain tends to cause the snow to stick like glue to the panels, depending on the year it can be a real mess. 

I ran the numbers quite a few years back and it didn't make sense at the time, at least from an investment point of view.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

We got a 6.2kW system installed on our garage in March. Meets or exceeds the installers estimated production. We've been net positive (and likely will be) from April to end of Sept, which is about what we expected. There is a 5K grant from the feds, and Edmonton has a grant as well, which kicked in another 2100. So our net cost was quite reasonable, 7500 I think. Which results in a payback around 6 or 7 yrs. We also have the solar club which pays you about 26c/kwh when you are exporting to the grid (and then you switch to one of the cheap providers when you are net importing) so that helps the payback as well. Edmonton and Calgary are the sunniest in Canada and the best for solar installations.

We let our insurance know about them and they just updated the policy. There wasn't a change in cost. Coverage is included in most policies, they just have to mention it (or something like that).

If there's a future rebate program after the current one ends, I would add more panels again to take us net positive for the year. I think we can get another 11-12kW on our house roof.

To be clear, there is almost no production in winter months. The idea is you get a massive production in the summer. Ideally your system is sized such that you generate enough credits to coast through the winter until it produces again in April. We don't get a lot of snow in Edmonton and it's light and fluffy, also lots of sun even if it is cold. Additionally, our roof is a steep 9:12 pitch, so things should slide off nicely and we'll get a little bit of production.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Synergy said:


> Don't forget to factor in the yearly insurance costs - liability, physical damage, time for lots of questions, etc. Tying into the grid can be an issue for some insurers. Freezing rain tends to cause the snow to stick like glue to the panels, depending on the year it can be a real mess.


Definitely a number of things to consider. Insurance isn't an issue for me, just bumps my total home value a tiny bit higher so like ~$5/yr higher IIRC. The other issues I'm ok to deal with and I am comfortable handling/troubleshooting any electrical issues that might come up.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> We got a 6.2kW system installed on our garage in March. Meets or exceeds the installers estimated production.


Very cool ... mind sharing some details (either here or a PM) on your system and how the install went?



nobleea said:


> We also have the solar club which pays you about 26c/kwh when you are exporting to the grid (and then you switch to one of the cheap providers when you are net importing) so that helps the payback as well. Edmonton and Calgary are the sunniest in Canada and the best for solar installations.


WOW ... $0.26 / kwh is awesome! We only get $0.05 for net billing here in Manitoba. 



nobleea said:


> Additionally, our roof is a steep 9:12 pitch, so things should slide off nicely and we'll get a little bit of production.


That high of pitch likely puts you closer to an optimal fixed angle, mines only a 4:12 roof so not the best.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

cainvest said:


> One company is using the newer bifacial panels so you can get more power per sq. ft. Reviews are saying the can be worthwhile but depends on the install.


Roof real estate has value. The more you can leave open for future generation, the less you will need to spend down the road when you switch to EV.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

For those who are interested in the amount of sunshine one can expect here is a table. It is based off of tables in the National Building Code of Canada. 

catalogue#12 (solar-store.com)

An additional link to the NRC calculator for those that really want to do the math and nail down their import export wattage.

Sunrise/sunset calculator - National Research Council Canada


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

cainvest said:


> Very cool ... mind sharing some details (either here or a PM) on your system and how the install went?
> WOW ... $0.26 / kwh is awesome! We only get $0.05 for net billing here in Manitoba.
> That high of pitch likely puts you closer to an optimal fixed angle, mines only a 4:12 roof so not the best.


We have 17 panels, 365W each. They're the frameless black design, so look very slick on the roof. I think we have a single SolarEdge inverter, rather than the microinverters. Don't recall the details. Our garage roof is south facing. The install was fine, the main problem was them trying to get it done in the middle of winter. -30C, had a couple days of freezing rain. Just not safe, so they pushed it back a lot. We had no issues with permitting or city inspections. The installer took care of the city grant application, collected it on our behalf. The fed grant we had to do ourselves. I understand the energy auditors you have to hire for the pre/post inspections are a little busy right now, but we didn't have a problem back in January. Our installer was called Zeno Renewables - they seem to have a good reputation. They are/were growing fast and my only knock on them was that there were too many people involved on their end - at least 4, if not 5 contacts. And I wasn't sure exactly who to talk to about some things.

There are a bunch of companies paying premium for exported solar power in Alberta. They claim the green credits and then sell those to industrial or commercial users. Something like that. Green Alberta Energy | Micro-generation

There's a nice app for the phone that shows the instantaneous power generation from each panel, daily trends, weekly, monthly, by billing cycle, etc.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Thanks for the details nobleea.

I can imagine the winter install issues, the two companies I talked here won't do them until mid-spring 2023 now. Good point on the sub-contractors, I'll ask about that. If I can't get a good grid-tie system install price here I might just build my own for backup only, off course I'd lose the grant money then.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

I referred a couple friends once mine was done and when they go pricing it was higher than I paid, so pricing has gone up either from supply chain issues or demand, or both. The Edmonton grant is fully allocated, so there's no more until they renew it. I would think the federal one will continue for the next few years. Pricing may drop in the next few months if recessions turn real.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

nobleea said:


> We have 17 panels, 365W each. They're the frameless black design, so look very slick on the roof. I think we have a single SolarEdge inverter, rather than the microinverters. Don't recall the details. Our garage roof is south facing. The install was fine, the main problem was them trying to get it done in the middle of winter. -30C, had a couple days of freezing rain. Just not safe, so they pushed it back a lot. We had no issues with permitting or city inspections. The installer took care of the city grant application, collected it on our behalf. The fed grant we had to do ourselves. I understand the energy auditors you have to hire for the pre/post inspections are a little busy right now, but we didn't have a problem back in January. Our installer was called Zeno Renewables - they seem to have a good reputation. They are/were growing fast and my only knock on them was that there were too many people involved on their end - at least 4, if not 5 contacts. And I wasn't sure exactly who to talk to about some things.
> 
> There are a bunch of companies paying premium for exported solar power in Alberta. They claim the green credits and then sell those to industrial or commercial users. Something like that. Green Alberta Energy | Micro-generation
> 
> There's a nice app for the phone that shows the instantaneous power generation from each panel, daily trends, weekly, monthly, by billing cycle, etc.


How much monthly generation do you get, and what was the all done cost?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> I would think the federal one will continue for the next few years. Pricing may drop in the next few months if recessions turn real.


Yes the federal one is open for a while (or until they run out of funds). I currently have an open federal greener homes grant going right now (getting money back for other things) so I have to decide to wait for solar or close it off to cash in. It's also one reason I'm sticking to a smaller 3-4kw system, to maximime grant payback.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> How much monthly generation do you get, and what was the all done cost?


All in net cost (after rebates), was 7742$.
Our average production from April (when it was turned on) til now is about 810kWh per month. I would estimate our annual production will be between 6000-6500kWh. With the solar club pricing (8c/kwh when importing, 26c/kwh when exporting), I think the break-even is about 8 years.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

nobleea said:


> All in net cost (after rebates), was 7742$.
> Our average production from April (when it was turned on) til now is about 810kWh per month. I would estimate our annual production will be between 6000-6500kWh. With the solar club pricing (8c/kwh when importing, 26c/kwh when exporting), I think the break-even is about 8 years.


If they did net billing, here in Ontario, I think that's $800/yr in savings, so a 10 year payback at current rates.
So borderline return IMO. Unless rates spike.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Thinking of it like an investment, that's 10% dividend. It might be more like an REIT as you might consider some of it as a ROC since the panels do not have an infinite life span. Assuming the panels last 30 or 35years before needing replacement, it's closer to 7-7.5% dividend after backing out the initial panel purchase. I don't think anyone would call that a borderline return. Some people seem to have a much higher return requirement if it's a house or car purchase versus a financial investment.


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## prisoner24601 (May 27, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Wow, that a fairly large setup. I gather it is ground based?


No, it's 36 panels on the roof of my house. I'm all electric so this setup takes care of all heating, lights etc with a small credit or charge at the end of the year.


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## prisoner24601 (May 27, 2018)

Ponderling said:


> Could just be a big bungalow. I have a 30x30' 2 story house with a shed roof.
> So only the south facing an squeeze in 11kW by my calcs
> 
> .


yep, about 40'x50' mono sloping roof so about half taken by solar panels. I also harvest rainwater so a bigger roof is better for that


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

prisoner24601 said:


> yep, about 40'x50' mono sloping roof so about half taken by solar panels.


Ah, didn't think about a single slope roof ... that has alot of area.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> All in net cost (after rebates), was 7742$.


That's not a bad price for the size of install. I just got my first quote back and my install prices are close to yours for about half the size.


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