# Emergency Generator



## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

I have a generator for emergencies ( 5 kW ) which will pretty well run my whole house including my oil furnace.

It's a pain to constantly drain and change out the gasoline to prevent it from going stale ( yes, I use stabilizer but even that is only good for a max of 4 to 5 months). So far I disassembled and cleaned the carb twice because of gum deposits.

I did some searching around and found a three way kit that can be installed on my generator so it can run on gasoline, propane or natural gas.
I have no access to natural gas where I live so I'll be using propane as my main source of fuel. 

The advantage would be that propane does not go stale like gasoline or gums up the carb, which makes it the ideal fuel for intermittent emergency use. 
It can be stored for long periods of time with no degradation of quality.

Once I get my kit, I will drain all the gasoline and clean out my carb one more time and don't have to worry about any more deposits. 
More importantly I would still retain the ability to run it with gasoline, should the need arise, ie. no propane available etc. 

It's really the best of two worlds 

Has anybody here on CMF done this type of conversion and if so, how did it work for you?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> The advantage would be that propane does not go stale like gasoline or gums up the carb, which makes it the ideal fuel for intermittent emergency use.
> It can be stored for long periods of time with no degradation of quality.
> 
> Once I get my kit, I will drain all the gasoline and clean out my carb one more time and don't have to worry about any more deposits.
> ...



Not sure if you can run a small engine on propane without having *some kind of pressure regulator at the carb.*

Based on experience with bbq's, *there is difference in the manifold jets between propane and nat gas.*.
.so with gasoline being a a liquid that has to be atomized in the venturi of the carb by internal cylinder vacumn (suction feed on the
main jet), it would seem to me that you might require a carburettor mod kit, just like the ones they used on vehicles when running dual fuel (gasoline/natgas/propane).

However, it may be possible if the conversion is done properly and not "jury rigged" as shown by some "seat of the pants" conversions on Youtube.

There are inline high pressure and low pressure propane regulators available, and the fittings need to be approved for propane..otherwise..a fire could result
A conversion kit is the safest way to go.

*The Kit:*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCn...d=0GgsQAS4JDg&annotation_id=annotation_812783
.
The last thing you need in a power outage is a situation with the emergency generator catching fire on you.

Here is a Youtube "how to do it properly" video to give you some ideas.. just be careful..you don't want the propane tank to catch fire around the generator
due to gas leakage.
*The installation of the kit:*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GgsQAS4JDg

With a manufactured conversion kit, you can run dual fuel on the generator, substituting gasoline if the propane runs out, but you will need
to add a shutoff valve on the hose from the GASOLINE tank to the carb. You don't want both fuels going in at the same time.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Seen a kit done on a car a number of years back, worked fine. Its a pretty simple system and I think you'll be fine provided the kit is well made.
You can always clean out the system and leave it dry without the propane kit. Better yet, just leave a tiny amount of fuel in and run it for a while every 6 months to cycle out the old fuel, then you know its ready to go when you need it. Also, see if you can find premium fuel that doesn't contain ethanol in your area.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Seen a kit done on a car a number of years back, worked fine. Its a pretty simple system and I think you'll be fine provided the kit is well made.
> You can always clean out the system and leave it dry without the propane kit. *Better yet, just leave a tiny amount of fuel in and run it for a while every 6 months to cycle out the old fuel, then you know its ready to go when you need it.* Also, see if you can find premium fuel that doesn't contain ethanol in your area.


Yes, premium fuel would be best with some gas preservative available at CTC. You don't need very much for a small 4 litre gas can, if that's all you want as a standby.
I have a leaf grinder (4hp motor) that only runs once a year mid October. When I'm finished I add a bit of preserved gas to the tank and let the engine run until
it quits. Then you have some preserved fuel in the bottom (float area) of the carb that will be good all winter. In the summer months, with hot weather, you
need to run a bit of preserved gas through the carb to replace the older 'striated' gas that's been sitting around.

If you don't follow this procedure in the summer months, the gasoline compounds will evaporate leaving the float bowl with "jellied gasoline" gumming up the works
and it won't start.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

Here's the kit I ordered: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tecumseh-an...it-/261539315521?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:CA:1120
My generator already has a fuel shutoff valve so I'm good there.
I have a propane cylinder PRV c/w hose that I salvaged from a junked gas BBQ. It should do the job for me to hook up the propane cylinder to the supplied regulator.
I think the supplied regulator also has a built in safety feature which cuts off the gas flow if there is no vacuum in the carb intake ie. if the generator stops running for some reason, the propane flow will be cut off.
I'll give an update once I have the kit installed on how it's working


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> Here's the kit I ordered: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tecumseh-an...it-/261539315521?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:CA:1120
> My generator already has a fuel shutoff valve so I'm good there.
> I have a propane cylinder PRV c/w hose that I salvaged from a junked gas BBQ. It should do the job for me to hook up the propane cylinder to the supplied regulator.
> I think the supplied regulator also has a built in safety feature which cuts off the gas flow if there is no vacuum in the carb intake ie. if the generator stops running for some reason, the propane flow will be cut off.
> I'll give an update once I have the kit installed on how it's working


That looks like the same kit as he was using in the Youtube video above

Of course, I don't approve of his hacksaw job on the frame. there was another solution..and him working barefeet in the shop..dropped tool..ouch! 

The important thing here, I would think, is that *you don't have two fuel sources flowing to the carb at the same time*. 

If you run out of propane, that large regulator in the kit should should shut off the flow of fuel and it has a primer on the back of it to purge the air in the line, initially and when you run out of propane, as air may get back into the line when you change out the tank.

Just be careful hooking up any pressurized gas lines (nat gas/propane). Use teflon pipe compound on the brass threads and don't tighten the "hell" out of either as that can also cause leaks. 

Test all your connections with a dish soap solution BEFORE starting the generator. That way if there is any bubbles around the fittings, you can correct the problem before running the generator on propane.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

Some of the you tube videos on this mentioned to not use Teflon tape but a liquid thread compound because Teflon reacts with propane. 
Not sure how much truth there is to that.
I am pretty sure I don't have to mutilate my generator frame because I think I have enough clearance between the airfilter and frame to allow for the addition of the adapter on the carb.
I'll find out for sure when I get my kit.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> Some of the you tube videos on this mentioned to not use Teflon tape but a liquid thread compound because Teflon reacts with propane.
> Not sure how much truth there is to that.
> I am pretty sure I don't have to mutilate my generator frame because I think I have enough clearance between the airfilter and frame to allow for the addition of the adapter on the carb.
> I'll find out for sure when I get my kit.


I use teflon pipe thread compound. It's in that tube he was using in the video. You can get it at H-D where they stock the black threaded gas pipes.
I don't see where the teflon tape wouldn't work as long as it is applied carefully.


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## daddybigbucks (Jan 30, 2011)

what brand of generator is it?

im surprised your jets are getting that plugged up.

You can just run a carb cleaner thru the air intake once and a while and that will get rid of the varnish.
I use premium gas with stabilizer and have never had a problem with motors sitting even more than a year.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

Just an update. 
I installed the kit and got the generator running on propane. 

The mixture adjustment on the engine regulator is quite critical but once it's set properly, everything is good.
Fired it up and put a good load on it ( almost 30 A). 

It worked flawlessly, putting out the proper voltages and a steady 60 Hz from no load to full load.
That means that the governor works as it should, regulating the rpm to a rock steady 3600 rpm.

I'm very pleased with the performance.

I was going to use an old BBQ regulator and hose but did some reading up and found out that most BBQ regs don't have enough capacity. They are normally around 75 000 btu/hr and a generator roughly needs 10 000 btu/hr per hp.

Mine has 11 hp so it needs about 110 000 btu/hr. 
I bought a 175 000 btu/hr regulator with a 10 foot hose attached and it ran the machine at full load without complaining!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sasquatch said:


> Just an update.
> I installed the kit and got the generator running on propane.
> 
> The mixture adjustment on the engine regulator is quite critical but once it's set properly, everything is good.
> ...


Makes sense.
Propane coming out of the tank is basically compressed liquid with some air at the top for expansion in the tank..ie: 20 lb tank is about 18-19lbs of propane.

it's important to understand the requirements of the engine that has a float bowl main jet setup for gas and retrofit of a propaned direct vapourized gas injection method.

Then you have the temperature of vaporization to consider...at 20C its a lot easier to vaporize the gas coming out of the tank than at -20C

and you have to take that into account. A tank heater pad may be necessary at those low extreme temps...



> According to the publication NFPA58, a *tank with 20 pounds of gas at 70°F would have a pressure of 145 psi,*
> at *90°F would have 180 psi*,
> at 105°F would have 235 psi, and at 130°F would have 315 psi.


The converse is also true..the lower the temperature, the lower the pressure, so you need an adjustable regulator, maybe with a pressure gauge
on the tank side. 

some additional info here...
http://gashosesandregulators.com/propaneregulatorfacts.html


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## AirPro (Mar 31, 2014)

Sasquatch said:


> Here's the kit I ordered: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tecumseh-an...it-/261539315521?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:CA:1120


Thanks for the link. One thing to note about these clear out kits is the price goes up and down like a yoyo. $128 one day, $88 for the next few days, then back up to $128. A bit of research indicates that they've been clearing out for a while and they go down into the 50's. I'm planning to wait it out for the "sweet spot" before buying a few.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

You should be aware that converting to propane (or natural gas) without rebuilding the engine will result in a loss of horsepower. It may not critical if your generator is adequately oversized. Your 5kw generator will no longer deliver 5kw. So be careful about its loading.

In our climate very low temperatures will affect the vaporization rate of propane in the tank. It's more of a concern in northern parts of Canada. But the effect is also more pronounced in smaller tanks, due to the chilling effect of the vaporization. As you seem to know (approximately) the withdrawal rate you need at full load, you might ask a propane supplier about delivery rate versus tank size and winter design temperatures.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

carverman said:


> ...
> Propane coming out of the tank is basically compressed liquid with some air at the top for expansion in the tank..ie: 20 lb tank is about 18-19lbs of propane....


There is no "air" in a propane tank. It is propane vapour above the liquid propane level.

Propane "coming out of the tank" better not be compressed liquid, unless you have the tank upside down. (Or have a propane liquid withdrawal system, with an external vaporizer, occasionally used in industrial applications.) Otherwise, propane vapour or gas is what is withdrawn.

It is more correct to say that, when full, most of the propane in the tank is liquid, as propane liquefies at relatively low pressures; but the usable gaseous propane is in the vapour space at the top of the tank.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

OhGreatGuru said:


> You should be aware that converting to propane (or natural gas) without rebuilding the engine will result in a loss of horsepower. It may not critical if your generator is adequately oversized. Your 5kw generator will no longer deliver 5kw. So be careful about its loading.


IIRC, its only about 10% less (if jetted correctly) so that shouldn't really effect operation as you shouldn't be drawing that close to max load anyways.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Good to hear the propane conversion actually works. I've seen them on Youtube and they look reasonable. I have gas genny that I would like to convert to natural gas although I have never had any problem with gas fouling the carb. I always install shut off valves in the gas lines on all my gas toys and let the them run until they stop so they are stored dry - like in the store. 
My Genny is only 3500 watts but and runs all I need during a power outage - most importantly the furnace and the well pump and other things when they're not running like the TV, fridge and freezer.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Good to hear the propane conversion actually works. I've seen them on Youtube and they look reasonable. I have gas genny that I would like to convert to natural gas although I have never had any problem with gas fouling the carb. I always install shut off valves in the gas lines on all my gas toys and let the them run until they stop so they are stored dry - like in the store.
> *My Genny is only 3500 watts but and runs all I need during a power outage - most importantly the furnace and the well pump and other things when they're not running like the TV, fridge and freezer.*


Interesting discussion. 3500watts is a tall order for running all the things you mention. Start up surges, if everything is on at the same time will trip
the breaker..but you may already know this. 3500watts (max power) at 120volts is 29 amps and most breakers on these generators are rated at 25 amps to protect the generator and the load.

From what I know, when you convert your propane bbq to nat gas, you have to rejet. This may be the same with engines that are designed
to work on gasoline. 



> One cubic foot (ft3) of natural gas contains 1,030 BTUs and one cubic foot of propane gas contains 2,516 BTUs, giving propane about twice the energy content of natural gas.


You would need a different kit to run your genny from nat gas. Here is a link that explains what you need..just be careful!

http://www.natural-gas-generators.c...IEmTKbHVm7-XhX3IbYCe7tBYMLGWNYQTGlBoCuNHw_wcB

Also, there is a fair drop in the "R% of the wire" at max amps..so you need heavy duty 14 guage extension cords to minimize heating at the connections.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

daddybigbucks said:


> what brand of generator is it?
> 
> im surprised your jets are getting that plugged up.
> 
> ...


 Not all premium gas is ethanol free Shell V power, Co op western Canada & Canadian tire premium are ethanol free for now.


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