# Considering Canadian vs US jobs



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm a Canadian citizen and I've always worked here (mostly Ontario) in the engineering field. Recently I've been job hunting and suddenly got a very attractive looking offer from a US company. An Ontario company also tells me they will be giving me an offer soon, so I will likely be comparing the Canadian offer versus the American.

I'm single, able and happy to move to the US, and I have a BSc in Engineering so as far as I can tell I'll be eligible for the TN visa. Moving and visa don't appear to be an issue.

When I say the US offer looks attractive, I mean that the salary is notably higher than what I found in Ontario. For instance, normalizing to protect my privacy,

US company offering compensation: $50k USD
Ontario company will likely offer: $39k to $44k in CAD

My question: *how would you go about comparing salaries across the border?* Here are some things I considered so far

(1) USD/CAD forex. 1:1 seems like a pretty good average of the last 5 years

(2) Cost of living. I've researched this and the two regions are comparable, so that simplifies comparison

(3) Net pay after taxes. Because state taxes are high in this particular state, turns out Ontario taxes me less according to several online estimators. (I'll pay less tax in Canada.) Comparing after tax pay, I could take home the same amount even with a lower salary in Ontario.

(4) *Medical* -- I have no clue how to evaluate this. I already have OHIP, so I know what I have here. The US company says it's company-subsidized medical insurance, but I don't know what that means. They said they'll provide more info upon joining, but obviously I should ask more now. What kinds of things should I be asking? Is it a big deal?

(5) other factors? Goal here is to understand, or estimate, the parameters so that I can make a valid "all in" comparison, focusing on take home pay net of everything (including medical costs)


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

The last time I made a paypal payment for USD owed they charged me almost 10% exchange rate.

You also need to factor in your moving costs (cross-border move could be $$$) as well as all your paperwork hassles and what not.

EDIT: I also forgot to suggest that you look into if the place you are going to is taking part in the photo radar/red light camera scams. Lots of cash-strapped US local and higher govts are using these cameras in a very predatory manner to entrap unsuspecting drivers, esp people who just moved there. Before the "just don't speed" comments begin, I'm just saying you should check into this and factor this in as well. A lot of people are getting caught by this scam and no matter how safe you think you might be on the road, you could get trapped as well. So be sure to consider those potential costs as well.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

When comparing payroll taxes, have you included the possibility of FICA taxes http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/240 in your US estimate of Fed and State income taxes? That said, depending on your anticipated stay in the USA, you (US employer) can ask for a waiver of FICA taxes, especially with a year-to-year TN Visa. Ask them up front if they will be making an application for an exemption or not. The details escape me, but I believe part of the criteria will be how long you intend to stay in the USA. The longer you stay, the more likely an FICA exemption will NOT be granted. After all, the intent of FICA is to fund your Social Security and Medicare coverage when you retire stateside. Example: I don't believe a FICA exemption is possible under the L series of multi-year work Visas, e.g. 3 year L-1.

Medical is a biggie in the USA, but depending on the employer, sometimes there are several options you can select from, i.e. completeness of coverage and/or size of deductibles and sharing percentages. It is often a very complicated menu of options and that is probably why they don't want to provide info pre-employment. BUT you should at least ask them to bracket the range of employee share of premiums, e.g. $200-400/month as an example for you to make a judgment of the overall offer.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks AltaRed, that medical thing was tripping me up. I know the costs could be huge (several thousand $ a year... could completely make the USA non-competitive) but I didn't know how to ask.

That sounds good about bracketing the range, example. I really need some kind of info like this to make a good decision


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Thanks AltaRed, that medical thing was tripping me up. I know the costs could be huge (several thousand $ a year... could completely make the USA non-competitive) but I didn't know how to ask.
> 
> That sounds good about bracketing the range, example. I really need some kind of info like this to make a good decision


The new healthcare law screws the younger workers while decreasing premium for older workers. Am employer is looking at about $500 per person per month that they have to pay for the most basic of coverage. That is with 50/50 payments. Obamacare, is supposed to be higher than that.

Better coverage that's normal is about $700 and if you have double the normalized salary, I'd recommend $1300+ options.

On the otherside of the coin. Everything is about 10~20% cheaper and the VAT tax is very little if non existent. On an equal salary basis, cost of living in the states should be less when comparing to comparable cities. 

The last thing to consider is the city and the people in those cities. The people there are... different and beliefs vary greatly. You want to match ethnicity, wealth, political views on places you decide to settle to reduce potential frictions in an otherwise armed to the teeth nation. I wouldn't mind staying in the rogh part of town in Canada, but I would be carrying two guns with me at all time if I live in Detroit.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> ... (2) Cost of living. I've researched this and the two regions are comparable, so that simplifies comparison ...


How sure are you that you have enough details to be confident they are that close?

I ask because my relative who was a VP was sure his move to Chicago was going to be much better than Toronto. He ended up moving back in a year as when he added in everything he'd missed, he decided it wasn't worth it.


Simple things can be quite expensive ... my parents mobile home in Florida had a Clearwater mailing address so they went to get library cards. At the library they were asked "what lot number?" followed by "you are across the creek so you are really in Dunedin, we have to charge you $50 a year so we'd recommend you go to the Dunedin library instead."




james4beach said:


> ... (4) *Medical* -- I have no clue how to evaluate this. I already have OHIP, so I know what I have here. The US company says it's company-subsidized medical insurance, but I don't know what that means. They said they'll provide more info upon joining, but obviously I should ask more now. What kinds of things should I be asking? Is it a big deal?


My co-worker who used to work in California said that part of what he didn't like was that the company would change HMO's frequently whenever the company thought they could save money & each new provider had different forms/limits etc. to get used to.


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Obviously I'll find out more. But yikes $700 a month medical plans? Are we talking a minimal cost to me out of pocket, just to be _enrolled_? That's $8k a year


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## Taraz (Nov 24, 2013)

Definitely go and visit your prospective city/area first (if you haven't already). Some places look better on paper.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Causalien said:


> Better coverage that's normal is about $700 and if you have double the normalized salary, I'd recommend $1300+ options.


I think that's a pretty extreme picture. I work for a US-based company and the employee share for the plans in 2014 look like this:

$106 per month for a high-deductible health plan coupled with a health savings account.
$154 per month for a plan with a HMO (health maintenance organization)
$186 per month for a plan with a preferred provider organization

These are for single employees; people with families pay more of course.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

brad, ok, say at your company where the employee share (enrollment cost) is $150/month for medical

Does that amount come out of your base salary? i.e. you're paying out of pocket

I presume in some situation it's an out of pocket expense (taken out of base salary) whereas in other cases, it's fully a benefit and the company adds a pay check line +150 benefit -150 medical premium, meaning that it's not coming out of your base salary.

Am I grasping this correctly?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I presume in some situation it's an out of pocket expense (taken out of base salary) whereas in other cases, it's fully a benefit and the company adds a pay check line +150 benefit -150 medical premium, meaning that it's not coming out of your base salary.


This is what you pay, it comes out of your salary. To the extent possible they take it out of pre-tax salary, so your reported salary to the IRS is lower. Some employers do this, others don't. Note that this is just the employee's share of the premium; the company typically pays a larger share or sometimes 50/50.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I asked this company and they said the enrollment costs for the plan, premiums, are fully paid for them... nothing deducted from my gross income at all. If I use health services then it's fully covered up to a point, after that point I have to pay some % of the bills

So it's not like I have to subtract thousands from their gross income figure to make equivalent to Canadian offers. Glad I checked though, the HR did point out that many companies would deduct thousands from my paycheck yearly for the same plan


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## eulogy (Oct 29, 2011)

Very interested in the discussion as the thought of such a thing, but don't have much to add on the moving aspect.

As for being a practicing engineer in the US, you would have to take the a pretty major exam. It's not like the ethics exam you have to take in your province, it's like your entire university on a test. Obviously it doesn't matter for the job as you have an offer, but the need to take this test as some point my come up. A good six months of prep for it.

Also, is Ontario that bad for engineers for pay? Maybe think of a move to Alberta.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yeah, I should have moved to Alberta years ago honestly.

Ontario isn't so bad, and if the offer on its way from Ontario looks good I would likely prefer it over the American one. I'll be considering both, I just wanted to make sure I understood tax/health and other adjustments before I started comparing them. Don't get me wrong... engineering pay in Ontario does look good, from what I've seen. It's likely a bit higher in Alberta but Ontario's is still high.

This has been really helpful everyone, thanks!


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## Westerncanada (Nov 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Yeah, I should have moved to Alberta years ago honestly.
> 
> Ontario isn't so bad, and if the offer on its way from Ontario looks good I would likely prefer it over the American one. I'll be considering both, I just wanted to make sure I understood tax/health and other adjustments before I started comparing them. Don't get me wrong... engineering pay in Ontario does look good, from what I've seen. It's likely a bit higher in Alberta but Ontario's is still high.
> 
> This has been really helpful everyone, thanks!



I would highly consider Alberta.. they are starved for Engineer's as it is.. and you can make 2-3x what you're considering going to the US for..


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That much more than the US?

Are you talking remote locations though? I can make a killing working in northern Manitoba too. How about living in urban centers and working in cushy office jobs. Still so high?


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

brad said:


> I think that's a pretty extreme picture. I work for a US-based company and the employee share for the plans in 2014 look like this:
> 
> $106 per month for a high-deductible health plan coupled with a health savings account.
> $154 per month for a plan with a HMO (health maintenance organization)
> ...


Interesting about the coverage. Do you know how much the employer is paying for you and how many people in the company. Last thing. Are you signed on for health coverage in Canada or in USA?

My price was for a small business with less than 10 and looking at the total 100% cost. It'd be rare for a small business to pay 50% let along 100% of the cost. We small buz gets screwed as we don't have any negotiation room.

There is a service, i forgot which name who can cut down the total cost to $300. with a good plan, but I couldn't use them due to visa law. They basically have the employee under their organization but he shows up to work at your place. This gives them negotiation power with the backbone insurers.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Causalien said:


> Interesting about the coverage. Do you know how much the employer is paying for you and how many people in the company. Last thing. Are you signed on for health coverage in Canada or in USA?


I don't know what percentage the company pays...I haven't looked into those details since while it's a US company we do have offices in Canada so I'm officially a Canadian employee (paid in Canadian dollars and paying Canadian taxes, etc.). But they posted the health care options on the intranet a couple of weeks ago. It's a "medium sized" company, about 5,000 employees I think at this point. We were 700 when I started working there. But I've worked for smaller companies and organizations (35-40 people) in the US and the premiums were similar, although that was a long time ago. They're probably higher now.

It's true that small businesses have a harder time, but there might be opportunities for small businesses to pool together in a larger group. For example, when I was working a freelance writer in the US I was able to get group health insurance through a professional science writers' association at quite reasonable rates.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Yeah, that's what I thought. A 5000 employee company I am expecting a coverage of at least 70% paid by employer. The important lesson here is to make sure it is a company with large pool of employee as that decreases health care cost for the employee. Otherwise the only option for the employer is to choose the cheaper carriers. Or have a group insurance plan similar to brad and I talked about. In those arrangements, you are "rented" to the company.


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## Canadian (Sep 19, 2013)

james4beach said:


> How about living in urban centers and working in cushy office jobs. Still so high?


I know a couple people who got engineering jobs with some public companies (utilities) in Calgary. Starting salaries (recent graduates) ranged between $65k-$85k.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Canadian said:


> I know a couple people who got engineering jobs with some public companies (utilities) in Calgary. Starting salaries (recent graduates) ranged between $65k-$85k.


That's only slightly higher than Toronto/GTA


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