# Asking for a Raise



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

What is the best way to ask for a raise?

I have tried before, twice, and have been denied both times.

Just wondering if I am doing something wrong...

I am a hard worker. Always on time. Never call in sick. Always do the available overtime.
I am kind and easy to get a long with.

I have done presentations for my peers, am very helpful to others, have a "give and take" relationship with everyone, including my boss, so I am not selfish. I am also very understanding.

Is it in my words?

I know for a fact there are people being paid more to do the same job that sit 2 feet away from me. Some of them even have the same or less seniority than I do.

What's the deal?

How can I politely ask for a raise and _get one_?


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

I just tried it as well, a month ago. As far as I could tell, I did "everything" right. Tracked every instance of me going above and beyond, and how I was heads and tails above the rest of my co-workers. I tracked personal growth on the job, added responsibilities and the like.

I tried to bargain for increased pay, then I switched tactics to increased benefits. More time off, increased pension, offsetting some costs like cellphone and the like.

Boss shrugged his shoulders and said: "No". Worst part? All that going above and beyond "Is now part of the expected job performance,"

Over the years I've tried the nice guy approach at work, the "Alpha male" approach as well. Neither worked. I've come to the conclusion that as good as I am at my job, I'm no good at the "game" and I'm hitting a glass ceiling. I've seen people promoted past me, all the while I'm getting stellar yearly reviews.

So I've changed focus. Investments don't care if you're good at the game or not.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The best way to get a raise is to work for someone else.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

I am very curious about this as well so thanks for asking Kae. Could you outline how you've gone about it in the past just so I have a reference of what didn't work for you? Not that it was wrong or anything, I'm just have no clue how any such conversation would go. 

I did once get a raise, but I definately don't think I did anything the correct way. I was about 19 and working at McDonald's. Pretty much a similar situation, I was passes over repeatedly for both raises and promotions. My issue was that I worked extremely hard and was very fast and efficient. I did my job and I did it well. Anyway, I didn't really say anything because I'm not much for confrontation (or wasn't). I guess my unhappiness started to show because my boss asked me what had changed during a regularly scheduled review. She said that my performance was satisfactory, but it wasn't the glowing reports I normally got. I pretty much told her straight up that everyone around me had blown right by me and I didn't see how they earned it over me. I told her I didn't see the point in going above and beyond if I wasn't going to be acknowledged for it and I didn't know if I wanted to stay there anymore. She asked me what would make it right and I told her straight up "a raise and I wanted to be a crew trainer. She said "I'll do you one better. As of right now you are a crew trainer and you will be getting team leader (like a manager) with the next round of training. 

I walked out with twice what I wanted and all was well again. In retrospect however, the way I handled things was passive aggressive and I should have spoken out early and not reflected my disappointment with my work ethic.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Any way you can figure out what your industry peers are being paid, and present that to your boss?

Some lines of work have associations that, among other things, do research into what is typical pay for various jobs and experience levels.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Have you checked Glassdoor.com? Are you Below, At, or Above the prevailing market rates?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I would find out either from your boss or HR what is the criteria for raises first if there is one.

Some companies only give raises during certain times of the year, or based on time in job, some will only allow it if you are moving jobs, or dependant on where you are on the salary grade.

Generally the larger the corporation, or if there are unions involved the more stringent the rules. 

If your boss says no, then I would find out what the criteria for increases are. I have only worked for rather large companies with stricter rules. There have been defined pay grades. I have usually found out what is required for the next pay grade in terms of qualifications, and seen how my skills and contributions matched up. Also, comparing yourself to other co workers seldomly if ever works. 

If all else fails, as someone else said, the best way to increase your pay is to find another job whether in the company or outside.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

*Crazyjack,* I know _exactly_ what you mean.

*jcgd,* I basically did exactly what crazyjack did.

I worked very hard. Was always positive. I kept a list of things I had done "Above and beyond". I had written down things I was proud of or achieved, or how I demonstrated a certain "way" the company wanted me to be.

Then, I would usually ask my boss if we could speak for a moment or two. The boss and I would go into an office, and I would outline all of my accomplishments, and simply ask what my boss is doing to ensure salaries are kept up with inflation and that people are being rewarded and recognized for their hard work. Usually after that conversation, I would say that I feel like I have accomplished many things and have brought revenue to the company, and that I wish to ask for a salary increase.

And then, like crazyjack, you just get the "No."

That's it.

In fact, one time, I was even told by my boss that I am _not_ an accurate representation of what the company was looking for. That pissed me off. What company wouldn't want a hard working person that never calls in sick and does all the available overtime?!


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

You may had been branded as "that guy who doesn't have anything better lined up, and will never look for another job". So even if you're doing very well, there is no pressure to reward you, because they do not fear losing you.

Are you tied down to this job? Do you have a professional network of colleagues? When was the last time you went for an interview? When was the last time you got an offer?

If they know you are comfortable at your position, and they think you lack the drive to go get what's yours, they will not give you a significant raise.

Simply put: you may not be bargaining on equal grounds, because they perceive that you have more to lose then they do.

If that's the case, change it. Go take some courses, start networking, apply to some jobs, interview some jobs.

You may find out one of two things:

1. you are indeed awesome, and can command a higher salary.
2. you are not that awesome, and do not deserve a higher salary.

Problem solved either way.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> Have you checked Glassdoor.com? Are you Below, At, or Above the prevailing market rates?


Definitely below. 

100%.

I know other people in the sector and I am below.

I am even below some people in "lower grade" departments within my company.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Do you get annual performance reviews ?

If not that would be the place to start and the time to discuss pay level.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If a person doesn't belong to a union, a professional association, or an entity that binds all the employees together as a single negotiating force, the employee has no leverage with the employer.

There are exceptions as always.........certain occupations requiring skill sets or labor shortages, but other than that...........companies can replace employees so there is no need to pay them more.

Often.........the boss is likely cognizant of the cost of his/her department.......and is loathe to increase the cost and have to explain it to their superiors.

You could try to find out what employees doing similar work are being paid.......or if the employer has a non binding pay chart, but I doubt there is a "technique" that is more effective at getting a raise than another method.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

slacker said:


> You may had been branded as "that guy who doesn't have anything better lined up, and will never look for another job". So even if you're doing very well, there is no pressure to reward you, because they do not fear losing you.
> 
> Are you tied down to this job? Do you have a professional network of colleagues? When was the last time you went for an interview? When was the last time you got an offer?
> 
> If they know you are comfortable at your position, and they think you lack the drive to go get what's yours, they will not give you a significant raise.


I thought of this.

This may be true.

But what am I to the company?

Maybe they think I can be replaced.... in which case they will say "There's the door."


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> Do you get annual performance reviews ?
> 
> If not that would be the place to start and the time to discuss pay level.


Yes, I do. But the only problem is that they are annual, and the year just began.

I don't want to wait another 11 months...


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Definitely below.
> 
> 100%.
> 
> I know other people in the sector and I am below.


If true, you should be able to get a raise by going somewhere else. Have you tried that?


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

What about taking more training or courses that relate to your job? Make your skill set more valuable (on paper, not just practise) than everyone else and see if that helps. Wouldn't hurt to learn more about finance and investing either. Just throwing out ideas...


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Yes, I do. But the only problem is that they are annual, and the year just began.
> 
> I don't want to wait another 11 months...


Changing that sort of bureaucracy is even harder than getting a big raise. Imagine what your boss would have to do. He'll have to tell his boss there is a big emergency and that KaeJS is unhappy, and they have to give you a big raise right away. They will have to alert payroll, and HR, and update the budgets. He will have to provide very good justification for overriding so much bureaucracy, he will have to cite specific money that the company will lose as a result of you being unhappy.

Your boss would have to really really need you to go through that much trouble. I've seen it. This stuff can happen, but it's pretty rare.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> I thought of this.
> 
> This may be true.
> 
> ...


Well, not give you a raise is a polite way of saying "that's the door". They wouldn't lay you off, because that cost money.

If you know you're worth more, why don't you go get what's yours? It's not like you have a giant mortgage to pay off - oh wait ....


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## dsaljurator (Jan 12, 2012)

The fastest way to get a raise is to find another job that pays more. If your employer doesn't have a culture of giving people regular raises, then it can be incredibly difficult to get them. I worker for a small publisher for nearly a decade, was a pivotal part of the team, and ultimately had to leave to get close to market value for my skills (i left for 40% more money, with less responsibility).


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Good on you. We should all strive to be more like you.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> If true, you should be able to get a raise by going somewhere else. Have you tried that?


I have not tried that yet, as stock options are holding me back for now.

I would lose a few thousand in company holdings. I can't leave quite yet.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> The best way to get a raise is to work for someone else.


Yup. Applying for your job in a different company is the best way to get the biggest raise.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> Yup. Applying for your job in a different company is the best way to get the biggest raise.


The only way to change your organization, is to change your organization.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> I have not tried that yet, as stock options are holding me back for now.
> 
> I would lose a few thousand in company holdings. I can't leave quite yet.


They probably know that, so don't need to give you a raise.


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## dsaljurator (Jan 12, 2012)

KaeJS said:


> I have not tried that yet, as stock options are holding me back for now.
> 
> I would lose a few thousand in company holdings. I can't leave quite yet.


Applying for other jobs and getting offers are not the same thing as leaving. If you got an offer that was 10k/yr more than what you make now, would you be better off to take the new job, or wait for your options (or whatever it is) to vest? If they actually want to retain you, going to your boss and saying 'i have this offer' can be one way to actually force the hand of a company, and get a raise. This only works if the actually care to keep you though. And in some cases, even if they do want to keep you, they'll just let you walk anyway out of fear that you're just going to leave in the next 6 months anyway.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Excellent summary Slacker..............

I did an 11 year stint as a front line supervisor when I first started out working.

I had my own " department budget" and soon learned the only way to get my employees more money was to tie increases in pay with higher unit production.

Working with the people, we managed to increase productivity by 30%, through simple measures such as fixing unproductive machinery, moving machines closer together when a person had multiple tasks, and grouping tasks that were unproductive together off line.

The wages went up 20%........and my bosses were happy.........except for my immediate boss the plant manager. 

He viewed any increase in wages to employees as a waste of money.

I could see where that relationship was heading so I jumped ship as soon as I could.

In this situation, probably best to keep the job.......but keep the eyes peeled for a better offer somewhere.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

slacker said:


> 2. you are not that awesome, and do not deserve a higher salary.


Harsh, but is this a possibility. In our own eyes we are all kings. Do coworkers feel you are in the top tier of employees? Have you asked your boss how your performance is? Perhaps all your accomplishments really are standard expectations.

One of the tough lessons in life is understanding where you stand. We can't all be President of the United States of America.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Changing companies certainly is a way to go.

I know of an employee that went from one major pipeline company to another (the office buildings are literally across the street from one another). New job was exactly the same as the old. Salary went from 50 to 70 instantly. Go figure.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

KaeJS, not trying to piss you off, but I received a 10% raise in 2012 without actually asking for one. Here's what I think happened: as my dissatifaction with my job has increased of late, I've been pretty open about not wanting (or needing) this job anymore and during coffee breaks I don't hold back much from my workmates. I am pretty damn sure word of this has reached the ears of the "brain trust". I know for a fact that if I walked away things would be very difficult for them - trying to replace me would be a *****... easier for them to try to placate me with a raise than risk losing me. Too be honest, the raise will only help me quit sooner. :biggrin:

KaeJS, I would work towards somehow becoming indispendsable - don't know what you would have to do in your current occupation to reach such status - or, like others have said, I would shop yourself around a bit. It seems that members of this forum appreciate you more than your current employers. :upset:


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> I have not tried that yet, as stock options are holding me back for now.
> 
> I would lose a few thousand in company holdings. I can't leave quite yet.


If you can make a few thousand more in an increase salary, then it would be worth the leave. I agree with others, apply at other places, that's the best way to see what you are worth.

If you get lots of interviews, and offeres, then you will know and have a choice. If not, then you know. Quite often the threat of leaving is enough to get them to give you an increase, but you better be willing to leave. 

My very first job out of school, I was making less than the new people that were coming on, and my performance reviews were stellar with management potential (their words). When a good friend of mine got the same job that I trained him for, and was making 10% more, I asked to be brought up to the minimum. They said they would have to work the system, and think about it. At the same time, I got turned over for a big promotion because though they thought I would be great they thought I wasn't seasoned enough (aka too young). I applied at another company, gave them my resignation, with 3 days before I had to accept the offer, with an attempt to negotiate. They came back a week after my deadline with the promotion and a 25% raise. I actually told them too bad because I had to already accept because they didn't get back to me in time. They came back again with another raise on top of that. It made it really hard, but I still left on the principle that I gave the new company my word. I learned that a person is most desirable when someone else wants them. 

I still apply for jobs after 2 years (if I haven't been moved around) even if I am happy to see what I am worth. It keeps me check, and lets me be confident that I am at my current place by choice. I strongly suggest this to everyone. 

I would also be going deeper instead of just accepting 'no', I would be finding out what is the criteria. Some times hard work is not the only thing, but rather what they see as potential to move up and being worth keeping. I still have these conversations with my managers in terms of finding out what I need to do to move ahead for the next few moves.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Yes !! (We could use a career section on this forum)

Yes !! A good manager owes you specific actionable feedback on how to get better, how to get better reviews, and how to get bigger raise. He owes you that.

If your manager only gives you generic feedback, he's not interested in developing your career, and that is a red flag. He is only interested in keeping you quiet.

Leave as soon as you are able, if you value your career development.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

KaeJS

Do the complete opposite almost everyone else is doing. Most do as little as posssible for the pay they recieve. A lot of bosses hate good workers because they are hard to get ride of to replace with the very few of the best workers that do the most they can for the money they recieve. Bad workers can be fired easily.

So many workers waist time & energy trying to do the least amount of work possible. If you do your job to your best & honest ability & go beyond your job responsibilities in the most productive & creative way possible to make the company stronger you will be more valuable to the company. Most do not have the the guts to go beyond that of thier peers & take comfort in being part of the herd.

The stronger the workers can make a company the stronger the company becomes & the more it can pay its workers.

When I spend a dollar I want value for it. Most bosses are the same way when they pay a worker they want that dollar to stretch & get the most value for it. With the work ethic nowdays if you do the best you can you will stand head & shoulders above the rest & the boss can pay you more then the others & still feel hes getting a good deal. The compitition will even notice if you do your job well beyond the job duties & will want you if the boss does not want to pay up. Both the boss & the competition though will want to get a good deal & the only to do that is by giving them a good deal but do the best job possible so you get paid more but you become so valuable the boss also gets a better deal & gets more value beyond that which they pay out.


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

I will be asking for a 15% raise when the review is coming up (soon). I will be mostly pushing on:
1) market rate - this will get me to the middle in my range
2) I think that I am pretty good (based on feedback in the past 2 years
3) It is very hard to find people at my experience level
4) Margins are good.

Have never done this before - wish me luck...

Forgot to add - I will probably be promoted (as per manager's words)


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## mind_business (Sep 24, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Then, I would usually ask my boss if we could speak for a moment or two. The boss and I would go into an office, and I would outline all of my accomplishments, and simply ask what my boss is doing to ensure salaries are kept up with inflation and that people are being rewarded and recognized for their hard work. Usually after that conversation, I would say that I feel like I have accomplished many things and have brought revenue to the company, and that I wish to ask for a salary increase.


So you put your boss off-balance by questioning how they ensure salaries are fair when handed out, before you ask for a salary increase??? No wonder you're not getting a raise. If the above paragraph is accurate, you took a relatively aggressive approach at the beginning of a negotiation. This won't work with most managers.

I would suggest doing some true self-awareness analysis, starting with "I'm not perfect", to see if there maybe is a reason you're getting looked over for raises and promotions. This is not easy ... especially for certain types of personalities.

When I first became a Manager I had to take a Leadership course, which required a 360 degree Feedback survey be completed. This is where you self-rate yourself in various leadership competencies. You are also required to provide a list of names of people that will also rate you on these same competencies. The list needs to include peers, supervisors, external customers, etc. I remember the day very well when our class of Managers (some of which were Senior Managers) opened up the comparison results. The reactions ranged from the extremes, with some people laughing in disbelief, quiet acceptance of the results, anger (this was common), to one Manager breaking down in tears. Keep in mind that these were confidential results, and that no one shared the results with the class. It was for your own awareness. The biggest lesson from this type of exercise is that, what you may see as a strength, others may see it as a hindrence to your career development. The people who took it the hardest were usually the extreme A-type personalities.

Btw, what type of raise are you asking for? Keeping up with inflation is not a raise, but just a cost of living increase. Raises are usually given as follows:

a) Non-promotional raise - the employee is performing at a rate where a raise can be justified to move up their salary range. This sounds simple enough, but companies use specific feedback and formulas to allow for these types of raises. Once an employee penetrates past 50% of their salary range, it gets more difficult to justify anything other than a simple cost of living increase. High potential employees usually don't stay in this range for long, and are usually promoted, or if are truly being looked over, leave the company for better opportunities. Depending on the industry, you can expect a 2 -5% increase above cost of living for this type of raise.

b) Promotional raise - as described above, this is when an employee has been recognized as a high-potential employee and is ready for a new challenge. You should expect above a 5% increase for this type of raise.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> If a person doesn't belong to a union, a professional association, or an entity that binds all the employees together as a single negotiating force, the employee has no leverage with the employer.
> 
> There are exceptions as always.........certain occupations requiring skill sets or labor shortages, but other than that...........companies can replace employees so there is no need to pay them more.
> 
> ...


Turnover is expensive. Recruiting and training is not an expense to be ignored in your decision to pay relative above, below or at market rates. Often it makes sense to pay a bit more than the going rate to reduce turnover.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> I have not tried that yet, as stock options are holding me back for now.
> 
> I would lose a few thousand in company holdings. I can't leave quite yet.


Isn't that a couple months pay differential at a higher paying job?

If I were you, I would be concerned that my manager doesn't value me.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Cherry picking a few points ...



slacker said:


> ...Yes !! A good manager owes you specific actionable feedback on how to get better, how to get better reviews, and how to get bigger raise. He owes you that...he's not interested in developing your career, and that is a red flag. He is only interested in keeping you quiet. Leave as soon as you are able, if you value your career development.


Nope ... a manager doesn't owe you anything. If the manager is doing a good job, they will incorporate actionable feedback and they may choose to fight to get you a raise or career coach you but that's likely not part of their job description. 

Remember - what will win points with his/her bosses to get _them_ a raise is something like "improved productivity while maintaining morale and keeping costs the same". So part of your job as an employee is to make sure the manager knows that you are both a productive employee worth the effort and that you are monitoring market forces. It has to be handled correctly as a too aggressive suggests you'll leave anyway and too soft suggests you aren't serious.

The better you can demonstrate your value and assist your manager in showing their value to their bosses - the more the manager will see you are an extremely valuable employee and back giving the raise. If win - win doesn't work - another company might be the only way forward.


Also avoid assumptions - the manager gets work dumped on them as well, over and above taking care of you. So just because they are not taking on the extra work of coaching you for a raise does not automatically mean they only want to keep you quiet. They may be swamped with work from above, dealing with employee problems etc. so that a "don't add anything extra until asked" method keeps the workload manageable.

That's where building into a review chat something along the lines of "I seem to have been receiving good reviews but noticed there haven't been any raises. Are there areas I can improve and what is needed to get a raise" can work well. It give the manager the signal that he's going to need to deal with it without being in their face and give them some time to think about what they need to do. Sometimes there many layers above that need to rubberstamp the raise and the manager has to provide proof/convince others.




andrewf said:


> Turnover is expensive. Recruiting and training is not an expense to be ignored in your decision to pay relative above, below or at market rates. Often it makes sense to pay a bit more than the going rate to reduce turnover.


That's where talking to others and observing management's attitudes helps guide what to do. Just because turnover is expensive, does not mean management cares. 

At one company I worked for, the attitude was that if outside recruitment was required to replace an employee - that was just the cost of doing business. Raiser on the other hand, were a controllable, usually unnecessary expense. 

They had many examples of refusing to pay a small raise, the employee leaving and two replacements being hired to cover the same work. It was pretty clear that the small raise, even if it only worked for a year or two was much cheaper. This observation was dismissed out of hand as "the job market has changed".


Cheers


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I've participated in a recruitment exercise. It was scary to see the candidates we got. The person we replaced was trained, and reasonably competent. The hire was the best of the bunch but not as quick a learner and obviously needed a few months of training/hand-holding. From what I gather, they are also being paid more than the person who was replaced.

This is just such senseless waste...


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> In fact, *one time, I was even told by my boss that I am not an accurate representation of what the company was looking for*. That pissed me off. What company wouldn't want a hard working person that never calls in sick and does all the available overtime?!


A great employee is related to as a great employee. "Hard-working" and "never calls in sick" and "does overtime" are the things you've outlined as what make you a great employee (those are what we'd call "table stakes" most of the places I've worked, as in you must have these characteristics at a minimum to *keep* your job, not get a raise). But at least one boss (the same boss you are asking for a raise from now?) has told you that you aren't what the company is looking for. 

The way you are going to get a raise is to figure out what your boss - whether here or at any place of employment - is looking for, and then provide that. Your idea of what deserves a raise isn't sufficient, because you need the agreement of others that you deserve more money.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

My guess-your a maverick,Your boss is hoping for a group(that is under him/her)To quietly work,stay in-line and not rock the boat.(Your prob overwhelming him/her,and likely they would prob like it if you werent there-truth!,asking for raises multiply times,taking about inflation ect)

Most people that work in the front-line of Bmo(guessing)prob are easily managed and easily backdown and just want to tow-the-line(team players ect,there not looking for the fast track,not sure what department your in thou)

Your prob in the wrong job/setting/structure to begin with no?
(also you said in your depression post:you have been turning your phone off,not dealing with clients,your not happy ect-is that spilling over on your performance?How about the landloarding?is that ''getting" into your ''way'' with dealing with your day to day job?)

Like it or not when negotiating-he who has nothing to lose always wins(you sure that is you?from your bosses angle?must be thousands of applicants he/she could hire.

tread carefully because your next boss will be talking to your current boss(so dont push it/burn bridges ect)

Maybe you should head to the other side of the bank and sell m-funds lol


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Just wondering if I am doing something wrong...
> 
> ]?


Quite possibly.
What you say about you is biased and meaningless, it may or may not be what others think of you.

This is what we know about you based on your posts.

1) You are very opinionated (just look up your posts - most tenants are scumbags for example).
2) You are young (fact) and think you know it all (my opinion).
3) You don't do anything for free, and wouldn't give or do anything unless you expect something back (look up your own posts).
4) You don't take advise well (as evident in you water issues thread and others).
5) As a young individual you probably think you deserve more than you really do, quite common.

Yes, if you are the same way at work, then indeed you may be very difficult to work with and may not be the right fit as one of your supervisors expressed.

Secondly in many businesses these type of conversations are done during annual review, and nobody wants or will do anything about it unless it's review time, and many times the real increase comes if you move up in corporate ladder.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Does your boss know you just bought a house and have somewhat trapped yourself into working in the west GTA or K/W area? That's a powerful bit of information if he does, and he knows he's got you. 

It is so easy for a big company to say "Nope. Company policy - try again next year" when you ask for a raise. You gotta be able to drop all the niceness and directly tell them to make it happen if they want to keep you. The entire corporate culture is designed to keep you separated from the people in charge, so that you would never dare to offend them and waste *their* valuable time dealing with your petty requests!

"A raise?! Well you know you're great KaeJS, but to do that now _at this time of year_ would need the approval of my manager, and the VP above him (and he's away until March) as well as the HR director, and then she's going to ask me why you need a raise and can't wait until next year"

**cue you slinking back to your office

I think the only solution is to try your best to find a new job for higher pay. Drop the letter on your boss's desk and say you want that beat by 5% or you're gone.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

There is not one 'right' way to ask for a raise, as its based on the culture of the organization, policies, the manager, etct. There are many wrong ways.

Though there have been some great points here, and some speculation of what 'might' get you a raise. If you want to stay with the company, and get a raise, you need to find out what your boss feels needs to be done. You saying you are great, is your perception. Really, the ONLY perception that matters is that of your boss or the person who has the authority to give you the raise... not anyone here. 

Some bosses are good, and will want to keep you, some will want to shut you up, some don't know. Your course of action is to figure out your boss. Since you have been denied twice now, it tells me you haven't figure out your boss. Have a conversation with him in open, future action orientatied manner. If you don't find out what you either need to do, or what you are not doing, then that means the boss either doesn't know or want to tell you. Which means you will probably not get your raise, and should look else where.


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

In my experience never calling in sick is only good for ruining your health. I guess a lot of people have this notion of what a hard worker should be.. staying late, taking on extra work for free, not calling in sick. I don't think anyone has ever been told "good work Bob, you haven't missed a day of work in 5 years, you're getting promoted", or better yet "we can't offer you this promotion/raise because you got the flu last winter."

My advice, be polite but be aggressive. Stop doing work for your peers, limit help to those who are in a position to put in the good word about you or influence your job directly. Do not feel any obligation to work when you are sick, or take overtime. Use your extra time to ensure the core responsibilities of your job are very well done. 

Depending on your manager, he/she might have been given orders from above NOT to give raises based on merit. This is often the case if your company is trying to cut costs. I have always found very few bosses will make an effort to give you a raise based on merit, but plenty will push to keep you if you are about to walk. This really depends on if you are providing value to the company and truly are underpaid/undervalued. Forget the notion that your company is going to do you any favors. If you are a valueable asset you need to demonstrate this to the company, as well as tell them in polite terms that you are there to be compensated. You will accept offers from the competition. 

Timing is also important. Keep an eye out for job postings from your HR. Are they having a hard time finding people for your posting? Did someone in your department just quit? That's the best time to make your demands. Last year when 2 of my coworkers quit within a 6 month period, and I was the only one left, I was able to negotiate a 40% raise.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

The boss already gave the answer!I cant believe the advice is go-round 3,Some say drop the niceness ect(that is bullsh^t)

Quick way to get ''fired'' or replaced?Start talking about inflation ect.
Not trying to sound like a di^k but what cards is kaejs holding exactly in this case.
He is 21 and works for a billion $ company and he is going to start pounding the table with mangement asking for a raise.....sometimes you got to face reality.
Dont start playing hardball,your boss and his/her boss are likely laughing over drinks about this(and the millions of other kaejs they encounter time after time after time)Seems like some of the advice here is lacking sense or cant see the advice is disconected.M.o
Maybe kae should go another route and get a different job.


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

If it's a large company, with several departments and a set review and salary process, then changing things outside of that window will be hard. Your boss has to go through all sorts of hoops and probably had to fight through departmental meetings and the such to set budgets and pay rates. The time to campaign is a month or two before the review process. There may be a little wiggle room just after you're informed of your new salary -- but often not much. The battles with other departments and other managers have already been had.

If you're a good and liked employee then they may chase another offer. If you're easily replaceable and seem to overvalue yourself (we used to call it an enhanced sense of entitlement) then they're just as happy to see you go. Another option, if you think your manager doesn't appreciate your contribution, is to ask for a transfer to another department. 

Your pay is usually not just your boss's call, though he's the one who has to fight for you. One of the most frustrating roles I had was justifying a poor raise to an employee when I'd just spent the last month arguing for more.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I really think Kae should be looking for another job. I doubt he's going to get anywhere in his current position.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I really think Kae should be looking for another job. I doubt he's going to get anywhere in his current position.


This.

In Kae's specific situation, he's asked twice now and gotten absolutely nowhere, not even a hint of a possibility of a raise. Furthermore, it sounds like your boss doesn't seem to like you. I can't believe they actually said that bit about you not being what the company was looking for. First, that's a really stupid thing for any manager to say to any employee. The only place I can even think of someone saying that would be when someone is getting fired, and even then, it is a really stupid thing to say.

Is there an opportunity to transfer to another department or manager? Sometimes it's all about the right connection. It's clear the current one isn't going to improve much, if at all.

As for generally asking for a raise, I think discussing inflation isn't a great approach. I'm sure most managers understand that as they're being hit by it as well on a personal level, as well as a company level with rising costs, and in many industries, shrinking revenues. If you're experiencing it, mostly everyone else will be as well, so to use that as a lead into the discussion may signal that you're more about "me" than anything else. Also, if that's your #1 concern, then you might get a cost-of-living type raise, which really is kind of setting the bar low for all the effort this is taking. 

I'd suggest talking more about opportunities to grow or learn more or take on more responsibility. That comes across as someone who is eager to learn and contribute more, while also reaching agreement with your manager that you are obviously someone who is capable of doing more. With this as a foundation, it's easy to then go into salary increases which are associated with the new role.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Go apply for a job at the competition ,your relevant work experience will help you and really when he said you are not what they are looking for should have been your first clue to get out.I worked for BMO for six years but it always was my least favorite of the big banks lol


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Cherry picking a few points ...
> 
> Nope ... a manager doesn't owe you anything. If the manager is doing a good job, they will incorporate actionable feedback and they may choose to fight to get you a raise or career coach you but that's likely not part of their job description.


Yes. I said a "good" manager would do that. I think we are in agreement.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> Quite possibly.
> What you say about you is biased and meaningless, it may or may not be what others think of you.
> 
> This is what we know about you based on your posts.
> ...


I am all of those things. Well, I'm not so sure I agree with number 5.

I definitely agree, to some extent, with the other numbers. You hit numbers 1,3 and 4 on the head. Little skeptical about number 2.

In any case - I don't act this way at work.
This is a forum. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, and nobody is going to fire me over what my opinion is about certain portfolio's or strategies, for example.

Everyone is different at work.

And because you brought it up (again), I will tell you (again) that most renters _are_ scum. That is also a fact. Should I conduct a survey for you?

Stereotypes save time, my friend. That's why they are stereotypes to begin with.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

peterk said:


> ...It is so easy for a big company to say "Nope. Company policy - try again next year" when you ask for a raise. You gotta be able to drop all the niceness and directly tell them to make it happen if they want to keep you...
> 
> I think the only solution is to try your best to find a new job for higher pay. Drop the letter on your boss's desk and say you want that beat by 5% or you're gone....


That sort of a way of operating is more likely to put one of the "cut them loose - at best, they'll be happy for up to a year before being disgruntled again".

Better to work on persuading the manager you are invaluable so that the manager is worried about losing you and backs you. 




peterk said:


> ...The entire corporate culture is designed to keep you separated from the people in charge, so that you would never dare to offend them and waste *their* valuable time dealing with your petty requests!


Odd ... most of the managers I've worked for have encouraged dropping by their office for far pettier requests ... maybe I've just been lucky.




peterk said:


> ..."A raise?! Well you know you're great KaeJS, but to do that now _at this time of year_ would need the approval of my manager, and the VP above him (and he's away until March) as well as the HR director, and then she's going to ask me why you need a raise and can't wait until next year"...


Gee ... one knows the review/raise schedule, the current economic environment but supposedly haven't been lobbying the manager to convince them that one is invaluable, assumes the manager knows everything good one is doing and has sent no signals that one is willing to leave the company for better pastures.

And you expect the manager to drop whatever else the manager has been assigned to do (and will be rewarded for) in order to over-ride the process based on this?

Either you have worked for some generous managers, are naive or have worked for a flat organisation where manager has the authority to grant the raise on the spot (or any combination thereof).




peterk said:


> ...I think the only solution is to try your best to find a new job for higher pay. Drop the letter on your boss's desk and say you want that beat by 5% or you're gone.


That may end up being the case but without some indication the manager has been appropriately been lobbied, there's lots more to do first.

Then too, I'd recommend checking other companies either way - doing so resulted discovering a different company offering a 80% raise before factoring in the yearly potential bonus. Why settle for 5% if there is more out there?


I would leave the letter and aggressive demands for after getting a job offer. One can in a matter of fact way - put across the same message without running the risk being classed as not worth the effort of keeping.


Cheers


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the advice/suggestions/criticism.

I think the most important thing that was said is to "Look elsewhere".

So, I'll take that into consideration.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

slacker said:


> Yes. I said a "good" manager would do that. I think we are in agreement.


I'm not so sure ... even the best managers I've had, who did fight for raise, didn't spend any time on how to get a raise beyond whatever the HR defined process and criteria were. 

A mentor is far more likely to give effective career advice. 

What manager is going to say "I'm going to hate losing you plus the extra work for me to replace you but with my read of current management - getting a job with our competitor is the way to go"? And what manager is going to feel they "owe" information that makes their job more difficult?

Or maybe I'm reading too much into what you was included in the "owe" comment.

Cheers


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

I hardly work any more because I can live off investments.

The last job I had I took over the job of the person that hired me with in 3 months. I never asked for a raise but was given one several times I then never asked the CEO of the minning company that became my new boss what he wanted me to do after he told me & I made sure I understood. If I seen something that needed done even if it was outside that which he told me to do I just did it along with my job.

The thing I did differnt then the other workers was that I did not do x amount of work that I thought was appropriate for X amount of pay. I tried to be the most productive worker I could be in the safest manner possible & to the best of my ability tried to get everyone else work togeather as a team to add value to the company & make it stronger.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I know I am not worth $50k/year. 

What I am concerned about is the fact there are others doing the exact same job as I am and they are being paid more. That is the problem I am having a hard time dealing with. Even worse are those who get paid more for a lesser position. 

How can that even be?

There is also one instance where an employee asked for a certain shift and was awarded that shift. When I asked about a certain shift, I was not awarded for whatever reason. 

These are the things that grind my gears. This is what drives my motivation, morale, and work ethic downward. These things make it hard to wake up in the morning. 

I'm not asking for anything ridiculous. I am asking for fairness. 

I know life is not fair. But it's a pisser.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

KaeJ.............you are discovering in real life, that the stories you heard about getting ahead through hard work and responsibility, and how employers will recognize your work and diligence and reward you with higher salaries and more responsibility, and how you are.............. "special"............are more wishful thinking than substance.

Do what you have to do...........................for you.

Find a job in a unionized setting.

Be a bus driver...........or a corrections guard.............or a customs officer.............or work for the government on oil leases.

Something with a union, good pay, and a pension.

You can't make employers appreciate you...............but you can make them pay you.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> ...you are discovering in real life, that the stories you heard about getting ahead through hard work and responsibility, and how employers will recognize your work and diligence and reward you with higher salaries and more responsibility, and how you are.............. "special"............are more wishful thinking than substance.
> 
> Do what you have to do...........................for you.


Maybe ... and maybe one is making it easy for the manager to look good by keeping costs down. If the manager thinks the requests for a raise are hot air (i.e. one will never leave) and is not aware of all of one's contributions - there's not much incentive to grant a raise.

Bottom line is that part of "doing what one needs to" is being career management proactive (ex. keep tabs on what other companies are hiring, build a network to have independent salary info, make part of one's job understanding what pressures/goals are being placed on the manager, study the corporate compensation etc.). 




sags said:


> ...You can't make employers appreciate you...............but you can make them pay you.


Reward you with a pay raise - true, appreciate you - yes and definitely you make sure the manager is aware of what is going to be lost if there is a disconnect.


Cheers


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

In your next meeting with your manager, ask for feedback as to what you can do to improve your performance. If you want to stay with your current employer, the only way you'll get ahead is if you understand what the company wants, and provide that.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

sags said:


> Find a job in a unionized setting.
> Be a bus driver...........or a corrections guard.............or a customs officer.............or work for the government on oil leases.
> Something with a union, good pay, and a pension.
> You can't make employers appreciate you...............but you can make them pay you.


Oh right, we need _more_ union workers like we need holes in our heads :rolleyes2:
He should just move to Spain where the vast majority of workers are unionized.
I'm sure that'll turn out well for him.

Anyhow, he was criticized not by some corrupt capitalist millionaire, but by his boss at the bank.
Let's say his boss is a mid-level manager at a Canadian bank - they are not the kind of lecherous capitalists you love to hate.
A mid level manager at a bank is a worker just like Kae - he has his targets, responsibilities, and is just as much at the mercy of the real bosses as Kae is.

If we assume that the manager's criticism is valid, then escaping into a union job is exactly the kind of approach that breeds mediocrity, stagnation, and unproductivity.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

This is a great dialog. All the bases have been covered. One thing that has not been addressed is political-connectedness. If you observe people making more than you for a similar effort, it is likely that they are better connected than you. This is a whole field of study in itself.

Who do they associate with?
What topics are hot when managers get together?

"Whatever interests my boss fascinates me!"

Good luck KaeJS. You deserve it (even though I am a renter)!


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## YYC (Nov 12, 2012)

Hey man, you seem like a smart, focused guy. I'll tell you, the only way I've ever gotten significant raises in my life is to change companies, with one exception. Everyone else is saying the same thing on this thread, but here are my specifics, just so you can understand how much of a raise you can get when you change companies. I got a diploma in technology around the time the dot com crash was happening. No jobs. So I took a job as an installer with Shaw, good money in the $70-90k range, but no career progression and no income growth. After a couple years, I wanted a change (I'm not really a "company man", and at Shaw they really want you to drink the coolaid), so went back to the bottom and started using my technology diploma properly. Starting salary, $33k (this was before I had kids, so we knew this was our only window for me to do something like this). Worked there for a couple years to make myself the best guy on the help desk, and I was. Yearly raises came around, and I got a whopping $1k, to $34k. Not impressed, I started looking for a job, got one for $42k, 27% increase. Worked there for a few years in a more intermediate technology role, gradually taking on more and more responsibility. Got a raise to $54k after 1 year, a 28.5% increase (this was the one exception). Worked there for 3 more years, getting minimal raises to approx $57k. Company was not moving in a direction I was happy with, so started looking again. Got a job for $40/hr contracting, total net around $80k, that's a 40% increase. Worked there for 2 years before starting to look again, found a gig for $80/hr, a 100% increase. Recently got a bump to $90/hr, another 12.5% increase. I'm pretty close to topped out now, in my industry.

The best raises come when you change companies, it's just a fact. Forget about the stock options, you can probably make enough more in a year to more than cover what you might lose.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

OK.

So what are my options?

22 year old white male. Went to college for Business Admin Finance but dropped out.

I have a buttload of knowledge, but no piece of paper to back it up. I don't necessarily want to go back to school. IMO, it costs a lot of money and time, and I hate it. I feel there are other ways to "make it" without a degree. I've already made it this far.

I don't mind switching careers, but I am very temperature sensitive. I have no problem working with my hands, or doing a desk job, but my body does not like extreme heat or cold. I get headaches and become so uncomfortable it's not worth it. (I worked in a kitchen for many years, and my internal body temperature meter is ruined - I sleep with the window open, naked, with no blankets in the winter - that's how mucked my temps are)

Once again, keep in mind, I am not looking to make $100k. I really am not. I would be happy with $55k. That would be amazing. I would be extremely happy with $55k. $3200 net a month? Perfect.

At this point, should I just stick it out, become a financial planner, and leave it at that?

As an FP, I could surely make my $55k/year.
Don't most FP's make upwards of $60-$80k after commissions and bonus? That's what I have heard.

But then again, I hear a lot of things.

I am asking not because I think I know everything (like HomerHomer thinks I do), but I am asking because I am sure some of you have been in my situation.

Has anyone actually been an FP for a CAD Bank?

I know the real money is being an FP outside of a CAD Bank...

"Get a degree" <---- that's not the answer I am looking for.

I am looking for alternatives. If I wanted a degree, I would have gone to school and been $40k in debt like all of my stupid beer drinking "friends".


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

donald said:


> My guess-your a maverick,Your boss is hoping for a group(that is under him/her)To quietly work,stay in-line and not rock the boat.(Your prob overwhelming him/her,and likely they would prob like it if you werent there-truth!,asking for raises multiply times,taking about inflation ect)
> 
> Most people that work in the front-line of Bmo(guessing)prob are easily managed and easily backdown and just want to tow-the-line(team players ect,there not looking for the fast track,not sure what department your in thou)
> 
> ...


You guessed right on the maverick part. Everyone else here is a sheep.

Landlording is not interfering with my performance - Only lack of motivation due to pay.

Selling MF's is what I do currently, so I'm not sure what you meant by that last line?


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

KaeJS said:


> Everyone else here is a sheep.


This is worrisome.

Apparently you are very good, but haven't gotten raises. Self-reflection seems important here.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Kaejs can you upgrade your training at work for other job postings with the bank?People have started as a teller and went on to be the Bank Manager with stock options and great salaries.Most banks want college degree and mutual fund accreditation to work as a Financial Service Rep.You experience at your current job will help you build a good resume at your next job ,you are only 22 years old and already done very well for yourself.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Okay, you don't want a degree. Are you completely writing off education? A diploma is another option. Shorter duration, cheaper, said to be more practical than a degree. Part time options are available, sometimes co-op too.

Or is that what you dropped out of? Maybe the better question is, how much time and money ARE you willing to invest in education / courses / whatever?

I did a 2-year diploma in... basically the white-collar side of construction. Now I have a job, with decent pay, low stress, good work environment. While I've learned more in the past 12 months than I did for the 2 years at college, I would not have gotten this job without that diploma.

I wouldn't _completely _disregard _some_ education. IMHO. It does open doors.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My friend was in work force for 11 years and now at age of 33 he is going back to get his college education because he found he could only get so far without a Diploma or Degree.This will cost him about $50,000 but he figures it will pay off long term.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It doesn't have to be that way. I graduated with about $15k debt and paid it off within a year. The ROI of getting a degree is very high.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I don't know what credentials are required, but I would imagine it would be more than a high school diploma. I have to ask how many people are willing to give someone with nothing more than high their hard earned money. It would make me question why the person has any more knowledge than what I could get from the internet.

KAE: I do think some self reflection may be required. You have said that you have been turned down twice, once you have said that you were told that you weren't what the company is looking for, it doesn't sound like you have established any strong relationships or 'lifelines' as I call them at work. You are a smart guy, I would think its not the intelligence that is holding you back, but perhaps your relationships or lack of. It is also very evident when an employee is only motivated by money, there is a concern with managers that that employee will leave at a moments notice if offered a little bit more, so why invest in growing that employee. It's has actually been proven in many studies that money is only a short term motivator, once the person gets more money, they will get over that high, and once again be unmotivated. You say you worked overtime, never called in sick etc, but I believe that all that overtime was not to show you are a teamplayer, but rather so you can make more money. They paid you overtime, they owe you nothing in thinking you did anything extra for them. 

You think of other as sheep, yet, you were hired as a sheep. If you are not a sheep, then you need to be the shepherd. In your case, your boss is already the shepherd. Where does that leave you? 

I know you don't want to get a degree, but for some managers that shows a lack of ambition, and long term thinking. Yes, you have accomplished alot FOR YOUR AGE, but you are only 22, so you have not accomplished that much for life in general. You have some knowledge, but that is very different than experience.

So in terms of options, you need to find what is something that motivates you OTHER than money. Then grow and gain that skill. You may think $55K is a lot, I remember that time that I couldn't believe I had 'made it', then it was $75K, $100K+... that high will only be short term.

The best advice I had in terms of my career when I was starting out what don't EVER pick a job just because of the money, make sure that when looking at the job, it had at least two paths or two levels where I could grow into. If could always find ways to grow, I would always make more money. The only exception was if I was to become the CEO. So far that has worked in my career and life.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Andrew my friend has the money saved no loans at all which is why he can do that but he did wish he made the choice a few years ago.Much more difficult to go back to school when you are older.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

My understanding is that OSAP is more accommodating for 'mature' students.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Why dont you go into sales(tons of industries,and you dont need a higher education)
The barrier in real estate is quite low(agent)pure commish-can be highly lucrative
Car salesman(if your good,@ the top,top dealership)Or off road-atv,snowmobiles ect
Construction salesman(selling commercial roofing for example)
merchandise salesman(selling womens perfume ect-department stores)
I know/friends with these jobs listed above,all make a good living(not 100k but 75ish)and they work independently and are paid by results.

You come arcoss(on-line)as a friendly/likeable guy(and seem to have a ''range" broad intrests in many things.

Think beyond finance(economy is huge)Go to a industry that is ''un-sexy" and lacks competition(easier to succeed/dominate)not unlike stocks that get shun(wd-40/snap-on ect that are profitable)same advice can be used when picking a job/career/sector.

Work on your portf/landloarding along side these kind of jobs.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

You could also look at indoor trades-air plane mechanic(got a friend who went to a ''community" colleage(works on smaller airplanes/air carriers)

Another friend,works on hospital equipment(incubators,life support machines ect)

Both are doing well.


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

MoneyGal said:


> A great employee is related to as a great employee. "Hard-working" and "never calls in sick" and "does overtime" are the things you've outlined as what make you a great employee (those are what we'd call "table stakes" most of the places I've worked, as in you must have these characteristics at a minimum to *keep* your job, not get a raise). But at least one boss (the same boss you are asking for a raise from now?) has told you that you aren't what the company is looking for.
> 
> The way you are going to get a raise is to figure out what your boss - whether here or at any place of employment - is looking for, and then provide that. Your idea of what deserves a raise isn't sufficient, because you need the agreement of others that you deserve more money.


+1 on this comment. Instead of getting pissed off, find out what kind of employee does get a raise or performance bonus. It also strikes me as odd that you're looking for a raise a month after your annual review. Presumably you brought up your performance at that review? If you didn't get one then, what makes you think that your manager will have changed their mind a month later? If I were a manager and an employee who didn't meet the criteria (in my estimation) for a raise in their annual review came to me a month later, challenged me about inflation and asked for a raise I'd be shaking my head thinking, "He doesn't get it."


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Everyone else here is a sheep.


One way to get respect is to show some to others. I think once you grasp this concept your life will be much easier.

If you want to stay in finances and be successfull you need a degree, period end of story.

I have a college diploma and every day I regret not going to University, mind you my excuse is a bit better since I was much older when it was time to make this decision, language was an issue, family had to be supported so I took the easy (and wrong) way and went to college instead of university.

College gave me paper, without this I wouldn't get the job, not having university diploma put a limit on how high I can move up in the company structure, and how much money I can make, with university degree doubling my pay wouldn't be a problem and making it 3 to 10 times how much I make wouldn't be out of the question. Thankfully the line of work I am in gave me skills to work on my own as well, so I make about $100k per year in total, not bad at all but also nothing to write home about if you have a family to support and what not.

Just like you I wouldn't fit well in construction and such, my body just breaks down very easily, so less tasking work is in line, and that means education.

If you don't want to go back to school now you will simply regret it later on, you will see.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I actually cannot think of a field, outside of academia, in which degrees and certifications are *more* important than finance. Degrees and certifications are economic moats in the field of finance: they are designed to keep people out.


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## underemployedactor (Oct 22, 2011)

Hi Kaejs,
From what I understand, you sell mutual funds, yet from the postings I've seen from you on this board, you seem to be a stock picker with nothing but contempt for mutual funds. You are a home owner and a landlord with nothing but contempt for your tenants and tenants in general. Do you not see a rather large ethical quagmire here? How can you hope to be successful, let alone get a raise, selling something you don't believe in? How can you hope to be happy living with people you view as scum? You are on the wrong path, I fear. Quit that job, sell that house, get a copy of Plato's Republic, go on the grand tour of Europe or Asia, and let loftier thoughts occupy your mind for a few months, then you might be prepared to make some better choices about which roads to take in your life. Don't squander your youth with all this pettiness.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> I actually cannot think of a field, outside of academia, in which degrees and certifications are *more* important than finance. Degrees and certifications are economic moats in the field of finance: they are designed to keep people out.


How about medicine? I would rather my Doctor have a degree or two than my Financial Planner.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Your doctor's registration with the licensing body is the most important thing you want to watch out for. That requires the successful completion of a medical degree plus a residency. Finance has no licensing body and a MUCH lower barrier to entry, hence degrees and certifications are piled on in attempts to form moats. 

My point wasn't "which fields require degrees" but "in which fields is the lack of a degree more of an impediment?" Slightly different concept.

Editing to say that registration with the provincial/territorial registration body (i.e., OSC) is required for finance. But do you know how many pople are licensed? There are 100,000 people working in finance in Canada, while we have doctor shortages. Moats are required.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Kae... I don't know how to say this politely. So don't take this the wrong way. But sometimes you act like a jerk. While your presence here on CMF has been positive in general, several of your comments have been arrogant, ignorant, petty, selfish, disrespectful, closed-minded, or extremely negative. You seem to despise many things. You seem miserable sometimes, and you seem to think the whole world is against you.

I want to say don't take it personally, but it is a personal subject. I'm saying this not to be offensive, but rather in an attempt to give constructive criticism, and sometimes being blunt is better than *****-footing around the issue.

Anyways, as others have suggested, maybe it's time for some self-reflection. You're probably not naturally a jerk, but right now there are things going on now (or things from your past) that are pushing you over the edge, and you are collecting all that negativity and throwing it right back at the world.

Find out what makes you happy, and do it. The world does not hate you, and you shouldn't hate it either. I like underemployed actor's idea about travelling. Get out of dodge, go "discover yourself". (Cheesy, I know... but it just might maybe actually be beneficial.) Have fun with others and get to know them, instead of dismissing them as scum at first glance. Go be young and untroubled for a while.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

He's 23 for christ's sake! I say he has his s**t together for a "kid". I think he is miles ahead of 99% of his peers in at least having some focus on his future. (just needs to quit the sh***y job, pay the water bill and get back to buying stocks and selling them 8 minutes later for a $3 gain)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Great advice about the travelling Barwelle.................we would all like to be 22 again.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Dear Kaej, 

First of all let me assure you that I like you very much. But after getting to know you online...I cannot imagine a worst job for you that mutual fund hawker at BMO. You're not a good fit for that kind of job or maybe your boss hates you. If they didn't want you to quit, they'd pay you like the others. In any case I'm not sure why anyone would want to take this kind of low paying job. 

But let me give you some advice based on quite a few attempts on my part to fit into workplaces that I did not fit into. It is destructive to me and not good for the workplace either. Mostly it is destructive to me. The person you are online is probably close to your "authentic self" You should seek a workplace that will appreciate you being your authentic self. Car sales come to mind. 

Personally I could not find such a place of work and didn't care to keep trying. I am self employed and I'm pretty sure if you get a survey of the self employeds around here, you will find that for many of us we did not have much choice but to go out on our own. I personally at this point of my life am completely unemployable in the conventional marketplace for my skills as an employee. I will also say that when I was employed by organisations they did not regret it because I made them boatloads of money. They didn't invite me to the office and I did not go. I did not attend the Holiday party. In the very beginning, I was given an office and I went for a few days, then never again. I do not possess the skills required for office politics. 

When I was young it was the most difficult time for me because I really wanted to fit in and be ok at work but I just didn't and I was constantly in trouble. I too worked hard, weekends and overtime and never called in sick, but I'm afraid that research shows that being liked and getting along with your superiors and coworkers is more important than how you do your job. 

A while back I happened to find http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/ which has helped me to come to terms with and evaluate myself and what I am good at and resolve to do that. Because if I can't be myself at work, I shouldn't be there, because not being yourself is the hardest work of all.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> Car sales come to mind.


Seriously? Working nights and weekends dealing with fickle retail customers who think they know more than you? God no. Probably one of the worst sales jobs there is.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Ihatetaxes said:


> He's 23 for christ's sake! I say he has his s**t together for a "kid". I think he is miles ahead of 99% of his peers in at least having some focus on his future. (just needs to quit the sh***y job, pay the water bill and get back to buying stocks and selling them 8 minutes later for a $3 gain)


He's got his crap together, yes... he's got a good handle on finances etc. This is good.

But maybe all the time he's spent working on "responsible" things has caused his enjoyment of life in general to suffer.

You know the saying, Life can't be all just fun and games? Well, life can't be all just work, investing, and mortgages, either.


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

Didn't realize you sold mutual funds for a big bank. My original comments on the timing of the raise are more true than ever. Your review time is your review time and you're unlikely to get a raise outside of that. Your boss doesn't have that discretion.

I'll also repeat what others have said about degrees. Maybe college isn't your thing, but you should be working towards one of the various designations that financial planners and security guys get. Your employer (if you stay with them) may even pay for it, and you can do them without leaving your job. And when you're pursuing one of these it sometimes leads to better reviews and more pay too. CFP's, securities courses, and multiple other finance type designations. You don't have to quit and go to college. Much of 'financial planning' is (sadly) sales, and those letters behind your name look great on the brochure. 

And maybe reconsider where you work? Banks are pretty regimented. If you're good at sales and are good a finance, working as a brokers assistant (with lousy pay btw) could open some doors that might interest you. Good luck either way. Don't be afraid to leave....but until you do, take advantage of whatever improvement and educational opportunities they offer. Those are probably worth more long term than an extra couple of bucks an hour.


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> OK.
> 
> So what are my options?
> 
> ...


Look I am not going to sugarcoat this, but here's my perspective. If you went to school and have lots of experience to back it up, either you have to prove that to your boss (which you haven't since he won't give you a raise), or everyone looks at your resume and says "look at this drop out who couldn't even finish school, why should we give him a chance". The point of getting that piece of paper in a lot of places is not to show that you have experience. It's to show you can buckle down, make a commitment, learn the system, and serve your term. Your attitude shows that you clearly can't do it. 

How much do you make right now? Will 55k really make you happy? I said the same about $100k. When I got my first paycheck, after taxes, I thought "is that it?" Right now I would be "happy" with $12k a month since that leaves me a nice clean $10k after rent and expenses...after that I'd like a ferrari in the driveway and a trophy wife. 

You want to know how much a FP makes, make an appointment with one and ask them politely, "hey I am thinking about a career in this, and I need some pointers, do you mind answering some questions?" Some people are tight lipped about their pay and others aren't. I tell it straight to any of our interns/students that asks. 

And really, drop the snide attitude. A lot of people go to university and get some BS degree in womans studies or liberal arts, come out with no job prospects and a crap load of debt. I went in for an engineering degree, in my first co-op term I made enough to pay off my entire degree. The next 3 coop terms bought motorcycles and a new car, had a job offer before I graduated. Funny thing is nobody has ever asked for proof of my degree. 

It sounds to me like you are really after validation, that you didn't screw up by dropping out. You wanna prove your friends were idiots and you can get somewhere in life by taking a few shortcuts. Certainly that's possible, but not from bitching and whining. I know the angle you're coming from. I know my base salary at work is about $10k/year lower than some other people in my position. I went to my boss and said "this isn't fair, you need to make this fair or I won't be here much longer". Gave him 3 months to talk to HR and got all the excuses. So last week I said "I made this issue known to you, nothing was done, so here's my 2 week notice".


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Charlie said:


> Didn't realize you sold mutual funds for a big bank...
> 
> And maybe reconsider where you work? Banks are pretty regimented...


True ... I forget whether my cousin made it to assistant or bank manager before he recognised this, weighted the alternatives and went to work on line at Honda. He's been much happier ever since.


Cheers


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## thebomb (Feb 3, 2012)

Kae, you are not going to get a raise. If my boss says to me you are not really what we are looking for than what that means is invite yourself to leave our company. I work as the Director of HR for a large company. Let me give you some truths (which other have really already highlighted)
* we can give people raises outside of the annual review process and most companies will if the employee is a key employee
* people demanding raises are generally seen to be 1 of 2 things- desperate or unhappy. Ususally we dont reward these folks as we figure the desperate will stay and the unhappy will just leave eventually even after we give them a raise (the only excepion here is typically someone that has an 'in' is tight with the boss and is seen as hard to replace and in my industry has customer contacts we dont want to lose)
* we generally dont give people as young as you a raise as we figure this is your first full time job and you are short term anyways. why give you a raise if you are just going to quit in a year anyways
* the pool of applicants to fill your job are plenty. the laws of supply and demand tell us we can fill your job easily. so no reason to pay more than we need to
* we expect everyone to work hard, work o/t when needed, dont call in sick etc- this is a standard expection and doesnt warrant a raise

From my own expereince things worked like this. I got a degree, then a post graduate diploma to specialize, then a designation. I started with a company that paid me 43 for my first HR job. Eventually made it to 57 before I quit 5 yrs down the road to accept another job at 75 as an HR Manager. 1 yr later they gave me a 12k raise (without asking), then another 10k raise (without asking) . Then a promotion to HR Director. Now I am at 100k at age 34. Raises are in the next couple of months- we will see what happens next. I keep my head down, work hard, say whats on my mind, fight battles as needed, dont care about politics and speak candidly at work on issues at hand. I dont need this job- i have built my repution to the point where i know i can go somewhere else and be easily employed. I have the confidence of knowing I have the degree and education i know i need to be taken seriously, with the expereince to back it up. 

Reading through your posts regularily I think you should give some thought to what Barwelle said in his earlier post. I am a fairly good read on people and he makes some valid points. Find something you are happy doing. It may take some trial and error before you find it. Reflect on the vibe you send out, get a different job and more than likely you will see an increase in your earnings. Good luck.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The responses in this thread are worth their weight in gold for the newcomer to any workplace. Perhaps it should be relabeled "How to get ahead" and made into a sticky?


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Ihatetaxes said:


> Seriously? Working nights and weekends dealing with fickle retail customers who think they know more than you? God no. Probably one of the worst sales jobs there is.


He loves cars and hates mutual funds. He would be good at selling cars and awful at selling mutual funds.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Ihatetaxes said:


> get back to buying stocks and selling them 8 minutes later for a $3 gain


I hope this is a joke. If not, it's a terrible piece of advice. Absolutely terrible.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Berubeland said:


> He loves cars and hates mutual funds. He would be good at selling cars and awful at selling mutual funds.


Except a key thing in sales is emotional iq and being about to relate to people. I thnk kae has indicated that he generally thinks that most people are idiots, and would prefer to work by himself. Sales in general may not be his personality. My spouse loves computers, he actually got a job early on selling computers.... He realized he still loves computers but did not like the people aspect as most people were not as knowledgable as him. He too is opinionated. 



GoldStone said:


> I hope this is a joke. If not, it's a terrible piece of advice. Absolutely terrible.


I don't think it was advice, but rather a summary of trades kae has made in the past


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Ramit Sethi's email from yesterday on the importance of networking in landing what he calls "Your Dream Job": 

_Building real relationships is about investing in [someone who can help you] first, figuring out what they want and love, and then helping them get it — NOT instantly expecting a magical job offer. In fact, most of the “networking” you do will simply be helping people and getting nothing back in return. If this makes you uncomfortable and you want a 1-for-1 ROI on your work, leave.

When you change your mentality about networking, understanding that it’s about adding value instead of extracting it, you will see massive changes in your life. I won’t just tell you this — I’ll show you._

http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.co...th-scripts/?awt_l=OdWf.&awt_m=3XZxyf73OjMY4bn


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ Good advice. I go out of my way to help people when they ask me. I acknowledge there is the risk that people may take advantage of this, but so far it isn't a problem. Helping people when they are in a jam/facing a deadline makes an impression. I don't often ask for help, but I try to do it when needed and in ways that the person I am asking feels valued (that they add value). I think it's helped me be seen as a valuable person to have around, and it's been reflected in the raises/promotions I've received. Coming from a place where favours are transactional isn't helpful in small orgs like your immediate coworkers. It's about building up some social capital. Putting in more than you take out pays off in other ways.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MG. great article thanks. When. Was younger, always thought that networking was butt kissing and being really fake, and would refuse to do that. I always felt that was holding me back as I wouldn't feel right about befriending someone because I might get some benefit. I personally felt getting along with people, and building relationships where. Could be helpful and truly interested in others were the way to go. I didn't have the hugest connections, but always treated the relationship as something important to me regardless of what they could offer. 

I was actually a little horrified at an early performance review that my bosses thought I networked really well. Thought it was a negative, until they said, everyone likes to work with me, and finds me helpful and would like to do the same. 

My point is, I am not smartest, nor the most talented, I know have a pretty good skill set that helps, but I have built a genuine network of people that will help me fill the many other areas that I am lacking. It is those relationships that helped me along the way.


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

thebomb said:


> * we expect everyone to work hard, work o/t when needed, dont call in sick etc- this is a standard expection and doesnt warrant a raise


Can I ask your input on something, as this I clearly do not understand. Why would any company *expect * an employee to come in and work when they are sick, when they will clearly be less productive, and probably spread it around the office? In my company, policy states we are "entitled" to 5 sick days a year. I use them whenever I am unwell. If any company puts that in writing but 'frowns' upon actually taking the days, it would not be a company I want to work for. Everyone gets sick, and the idea that I should put aside my health for my employer just to show up and fill a chair is ridiculous.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

Nothing is worse than some jerk coming into work sick and then 2/3 the staff misses time over the next two weeks. I love losing pay because someone else is selfish and won't stay home for a day or two.


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## thebomb (Feb 3, 2012)

twowheeled said:


> Can I ask your input on something, as this I clearly do not understand. Why would any company *expect * an employee to come in and work when they are sick, when they will clearly be less productive, and probably spread it around the office? In my company, policy states we are "entitled" to 5 sick days a year. I use them whenever I am unwell. If any company puts that in writing but 'frowns' upon actually taking the days, it would not be a company I want to work for. Everyone gets sick, and the idea that I should put aside my health for my employer just to show up and fill a chair is ridiculous.


I get what you are saying. No-if you are a bacteria spreading mess than ya- stay home. But I cant stand the I am "entitled to 5 sick days so I am going to use them" mentality....maybe its just me.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I think what the bomb means is(and this is rampant in large corps)Taking obvious ''personal" days.(ie:The employee on monday showed no signs of being sick on monday but somehow come tuesday mourning the phone call comes,on hr's voice mail never the less*cough*cough*)And there back on wendsday----You know that mysterious 24hr flu bug.

People now feel it's a right to have atleast one ''personal'' day(employers are on the wrong side of all these freedoms/rights/labour laws)----Not a hell of alot different than a kid ''faking'' sick in elementry school (parents leave)Kid plays xbox all day.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

Thebomb, I agree with you there. Call in sick when you're really sick. Try not to be sick too often. Personally, I try not to be noticed for missing days. I don't think anyone at my work thinks I am sick more than anyone else and that the goal. Same goes for coming in late. I suppose some jobs are a little flexible as I've never seen my parents show up on time over 20 years, but in the trades you better have your boots on at 7am. If I am late, nobody says anything because nobody can remember the last time I was late. It's pretty infrequent because I generally have enough time to work out most typical issues such as snow, flat tires, traffic, etc. The only thing that tend to make me late is when for some reason I just sleep clear through my alarm. It happens once per year or so and I can't explain why.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Just wondering if I am doing something wrong...
> 
> I am a hard worker. Always on time. Never call in sick. Always do the available overtime.
> I am kind and easy to get a long with.
> ...


Read this article (warning offensive language directed at 20-something guys, but it makes a strong point) *6 Harsh Truths*

I used to think the same way, it's natural for many. So you always show up on time and do your job and you're always polite? Good for you. Everyone gets sick and has bad days for whatever reason at some point. You don't necessarily know why people are paid more than you. It's the same mentality as when guys reason that they can't find a girl because they all only like jerks. You are thinking people are paid unfairly more, maybe they are or maybe your perspective doesn't see everything. Just try again, try another method, try another job, try another girl etc etc just don't blame others. Girls don't just like jerks, and people don't usually just get paid more for no reason. You can focus on it being unfair, or you can find a solution for yourself

"Saying that you're a nice guy is like a restaurant whose only selling point is that the food doesn't make you sick. You're like a new movie whose title is This Movie Is in English, and its tagline is "The actors are clearly visible."

Don't focus on other people's faults that you don't have, we all have faults. Just focus on how to reach your own potential. I don't think you necessarily have to go back to school, but you need to provide concrete results and effects or do something above and beyond what's simply expected to move up. I write performance reviews and if I have to fill it with all the generic team player, reliable, easy going cliché-fluff sentences it doesn't say anything really to those who read it. You kind of have to write it yourself by being creative/sly. If you're really not a sheep (and I don't think you are) you need to do something besides fill a mold

One of my friends was very successful in the military but unhappy, then he was an extremely successful hedge fund manager in Toronto... but unhappy. Now one day he just decided to up and move to Korea. There's endless different opportunities out there.. you can do whatever you want really. Sometimes a change of scenery and people can make a big difference. I can totally respect that you're not just looking for the big salaries and don't care about a degree. There are banks everywhere and most areas have a much lower cost of living with relatively similar salaries for example. Personally I would be looking for a booming warmer country but not everyone can up and do that


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## Mall Guy (Sep 14, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> . . . I have tried before, twice, and have been denied both times. Just wondering if I am doing something wrong...
> How can I politely ask for a raise and _get one_?


My $.02 on the original post . . . unfortunately at this point you can no longer ask for a raise as after second try, you have likely been labeled by your boss. You see, bosses don't like to be bothered by these kind of things, cause then they have to go talk to their boss. And they don't like to do that, because they think that their boss will think they don't know how to manage their department. This could reflect negatively on your boss's career path. Much easier to say "no". 

Another factor that might be working against you is how difficult it is to replace someone in your position (i.e. how much training is involved, is there a large pool of candidates from which to choose and are they normally staffed "one ahead" rather than "one behind" ?)

The best way to get a raise to be more productive than anyone else (higher sales, faster turnaround time, lower number of complaints, suggest ways to improve productivity . . . whatever performance metric are used in your company). Work at a higher level, add value to the organization and never be viewed as a complainer . . . you need to be viewed as a swimmer, not a floater (and I am not saying you are any of these things).


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

thebomb said:


> I get what you are saying. No-if you are a bacteria spreading mess than ya- stay home. But I cant stand the I am "entitled to 5 sick days so I am going to use them" mentality....maybe its just me.


can you talk more about that mentality, why do you feel that way? I make sure to use all my sick days, even if I don't feel sick. Why should I give them up? I don't get paid out for them at the end of the year if I don't use them. I don't ever get told "you've been working a lot of long hours, you should take an extra vacation day". Most of the companies we work for are set up like large bureaucracies. They would never voluntarily give you extra time off. Why is the employee so eager to work for free when it's the other way around? Why are we so culturally engrained to make personal sacrifices for our company as if its the expectation? I don't work OT unless I am paid out or bank the hours. I take all my sick days. I request vacations without feeling guilty about them. I am paid for a certain amount of hours per day, and that is exactly what the company can expect out of me. 



mode3sour said:


> Read this article (warning offensive language directed at 20-something guys, but it makes a strong point) *6 Harsh Truths*
> 
> I used to think the same way, it's natural for many. So you always show up on time and do your job and you're always polite? Good for you. Everyone gets sick and has bad days for whatever reason at some point. You don't necessarily know why people are paid more than you. It's the same mentality as when guys reason that they can't find a girl because they all only like jerks. You are thinking people are paid unfairly more, maybe they are or maybe your perspective doesn't see everything. Just try again, try another method, try another job, try another girl etc etc just don't blame others. Girls don't just like jerks, and people don't usually just get paid more for no reason. You can focus on it being unfair, or you can find a solution for yourself
> 
> ...


There is a few good points there, but mostly the writer is just being abrasive. Of course not everyone has the talent or skill to rise above the average. I completely disagree with that my job is who I am, and that I'm to be judged by what I offer to society. I really don't care what I offer, the reason for my being is not to help others. I work and contribute only enough to ensure I have capital to do what I want. 

One thing I learned about the real world is that you don't need to be exceptional, you just need to be better than all the other candidates around you. Supply and demand works wonders. So what if I'm not the best, or even outstanding? If I put myself into a field where there is high demand and no supply, I will do well because of necessity. This is why I was comfortable going to my boss 6 months after starting with the company and demanding a raise. My attitude going in- yes I know I don't have experience, I am still learning the ropes, I make mistakes. But take a look around, you can't keep the employees you have, so give me this raise or you will lose a ton of money when I walk. I know a lot of people will disagree with this mentality, since a lot of our culture centers around hard (and often pointless) work. But it has to be said, there is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Why is that article directed at men, exactly?


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

kcowan said:


> The responses in this thread are worth their weight in gold for the newcomer to any workplace. Perhaps it should be relabeled "How to get ahead" and made into a sticky?


+1

I hadn't read this thread until today but on reading, I totally agree that this is a gem. I'm going to print off and have my children read several of the posts. Thanks to all of the contributors.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

twowheeled said:


> There is a few good points there, but mostly the writer is just being abrasive. Of course not everyone has the talent or skill to rise above the average. I completely disagree with that my job is who I am, and that I'm to be judged by what I offer to society. I really don't care what I offer, the reason for my being is not to help others. I work and contribute only enough to ensure I have capital to do what I want.


I agree it's abrasive.. it could have been toned down a lot and made the same point: always showing up on time, being polite, doing your job, being honest and understanding, not being sexist or racist etc etc are not exactly real job performance. You would probably be fired for not meeting those qualities. What you do is what you are but it doesn't have to be your job either. If you don't care what you offer to society that's perfectly fine, but you don't expect society to put you on a pedestal for no real reason either. It doesn't mean you're judged for providing less, but you can't be more entitled than others for being a law abiding upstanding friendly person etc. You're expected to be a nice law abiding person who shows up for work on time etc etc



andrewf said:


> Why is that article directed at men, exactly?


I was just referring to the site really, no need to call the sexist police :tongue-new:

"The demographic that Cracked writes for is heavy on 20-something males. So on our message boards and in my many inboxes I read several dozen stories a year from miserable, lonely guys who insist that women won't come near them despite the fact that they are just the nicest guys in the world."

The article was directed towards guys anyways. It's usually called "nice guy syndrome" but it could work for girls as well I suppose. In reality people are often doing the extra nice deeds to either get money, or to get a girl and they don't realize this is the real motivation themselves. For example working overtime is not necessarily for the benefit of the boss, but really for extra money etc Similarly doing extra nice things for a girl doesn't always impress them, while the guy thinks of himself as nicer than others he doesn't realize he's mostly just doing it to be with her. This kind of mentality is fooling yourself because we're all human and you're probably just as greedy as the next person. Just being a nice person and doing your job is kind of expected, not really a justification for reward


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I've got many things to say, and many things to clear up.

I don't have access to a computer right now, so I'll post everything in a couple days (Probably Tuesday Night)

I have a lot of people I want to respond to, and some things to clear up.

Oh, and I did ask for a raise yesterday....


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

thebomb said:


> * people demanding raises are generally seen to be 1 of 2 things- desperate or unhappy.


Really? Those are the only two options? 

There are plenty of valid reasons why someone might ask and deserve for a raise and dismissing those people is a mistake.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Oh, and I did ask for a raise yesterday....


And?... AND?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Why is that article directed at men, exactly?


I think only because the main demographic of Cracked readers is young men. (Although I totally read their site, because it is super-entertaining, and I like some of the writers' styles.)


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I bet he got it, otherwise he wouldn't create the suspense.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

This is why kae should be in sales.....Nice lead-in....Tuesday.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

I'm purposely not going to check until Wednesday. So suck on that lemon.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

Ah KaeJS, you are lovin' this. :biggrin:


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Sampson said:


> I bet he got it, otherwise he wouldn't create the suspense.


So, you think he's talked to his real estate lawyer yet?


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Definitely not. The tone of all his messages on that thread have and continue to be negative.


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## thebomb (Feb 3, 2012)

Sampson said:


> I bet he got it, otherwise he wouldn't create the suspense.


He will be loving it if he got a raise- he will tell us to go to hell. My original opinion doesnt change.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

I have not seen any suggestions regarding self-promotion with "soft-skills" so to speak. 
I would say that if all things being equal (generally most people do hard work, don't goof off, etc), you may have to distinguish yourself in other ways. For example, volunteering to organize the business fund raiser, or Christmas party. Or even participating in marathon fund-raisers and solicitating donations at work (with management approval of course). Even volunteering at the hospital, or Big Brothers would look nice on a resume. Something that you would enjoy and is extra-curricular. While you do not have to push it in front of everyone's face, you can simply let it drop out in casual conversation, i.e. "I can't make the get-together on Saturday since I'm spending the day with my little brother, what about on Sunday." Of course this only works if you actually talk to your co-workers and boss during lunch/coffee breaks or outside of work hours in a casual setting.
Sure it may not appear in the evaluation report, but it keeps your name in the mix when discussing raises/promotions. Not so much in that he is a good-guy sort of way, but helping out in corporate events, or volunteering helps build up networking. As well, your actions can be seen as an example of promoting the corporate image of that company.
I would be curious as to what others think: either that it does not really do anything, or that you've seen instances where this occurs.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> I would be curious as to what others think: either that it does not really do anything, or that you've seen instances where this occurs.


This has been referred to as your personal D&B Rating and is definitely considered in the scheme of things for more senior people. It is one of those intangibles that will never appear on your job rating. It reinforces my earlier point about the political aspects of the job. They will become more important as the job level rises. 

(Good large company CEOs spend half their time on external aspects of the position. That differentiates them from COOs.)


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

This article is circulating around my email inboxes: 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/kid-s...-people-are-trying-to-hire-him-151518002.html

*Kid Sends Perfectly Blunt Cover Letter for Wall Street Internship, and Now Tons of People Are Trying to Hire Him*

By Julia La Roche and Joe Weisenthal | Business Insider – Wed, Jan 16, 2013 10:15 AM EST

Sometimes we get forwarded applications for summer internships on Wall Street that are extremely embarrassing because the applicant is totally full of themselves or completely clueless. 

What happens is the letters go viral and the Street passes them around in long email chains blasting the applicant. They're always funny, but a little bit sad.

That's exactly what we thought was going to happen today when we received this one in our inbox. It turns that the cover letter originally sent to a boutique investment bank is exactly the opposite.

The cover letter below is unapologetically honest and people on Wall Street are calling it one of the best letters they have seen. Everyone on the thread agrees the letter shows energy and pluck and honesty.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Nice find MG. 

Wouldn't honesty disqualify him from working on Wall St (or Bay St for that matter)?....


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> Nice find MG.
> 
> Wouldn't honesty disqualify him from working on Wall St (or Bay St for that matter)?....


... and on top of it he is planning to be a lawyer ;-)


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I think the point isn't so much that this person (not sure how anyone above decided it's a "he," couldn't it equally be a "she"?) was "honest" but rather that the letter stands out from the pack because it doesn't contain the usual ya-da ya-da ya-da B.S. that people who read these letters have to endure every day.

Back when I used to serve on hiring committees, we paid a lot of attention to people's cover letters; it was the first level of the screen because we wanted people who could express themselves clearly. People who didn't prepare the typical formulaic cover letter always got pulled out for a closer look. We weren't impressed, on the other hand, by alternative resumes and cover letters that tried too hard to distinguish themselves through gimmickry, excessive humour, cartoons, etc. And because our job ads were all clearly marked "no phone calls," we always threw out the resumes of anyone who called anyway -- we needed people who could follow instructions and take them seriously.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

brad said:


> I think the point isn't so much that this person (not sure how anyone above decided it's a "he," couldn't it equally be a "she"?) .


Have you read the title of the article provided in the link? :encouragement:


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Homerhomer said:


> Have you read the title of the article provided in the link? :encouragement:


Hah, you're right -- I was just looking at the letter, and since the name was blocked out there was no way to tell. ;-)


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

Guy was pretty qualified (without the ivy league). I really liked the cover -- mentioned his qualifications while feigning humility, with an emphasis on wanting the job and being prepared to work hard. Bit careless to misspell 'crapp' though!


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## SkyFall (Jun 19, 2012)

so no degree = get a good sale rep job if you want a decent income?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Or a trade.

Most people with high school or less are assumed to be useless, unless they have great experience.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Maybe not useless, but very replaceable. Society isn't really making any more jobs for people with only a high school education. Doesn't mean you can't find work; does mean it is likely much more difficult, speaking in general terms. "Sales" depends so much on soft skills (which arguably are not ever effectively taught through formal processes) that you can advance despite a lack of formal credentials.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

SkyFall said:


> so no degree = get a good sale rep job if you want a decent income?





andrewf said:


> Or a trade.


Or unionized public service job. City of Ottawa advertized a vacancy for a cook assistant. Permanent job, $24/h, full benefits.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Oh, for sure. TTC routinely advertises positions which do not require any PSE, and these are fantastic jobs from the POV of maximizing total lifetime compensation.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> I have not seen any suggestions regarding self-promotion with "soft-skills" so to speak.
> I would say that if all things being equal (generally most people do hard work, don't goof off, etc), you may have to distinguish yourself in other ways. For example, *volunteering to organize the business fund raiser, or Christmas party. Or even participating in marathon fund-raisers and solicitating donations at work* (with management approval of course). Even volunteering at the hospital, or Big Brothers would look nice on a resume. Something that you would enjoy and is extra-curricular. While you do not have to push it in front of everyone's face, you can simply let it drop out in casual conversation, i.e. "I can't make the get-together on Saturday since I'm spending the day with my little brother, what about on Sunday." Of course this only works if you actually* talk to your co-workers and boss during lunch/coffee breaks or outside of work hours in a casual setting.*Sure it may not appear in the evaluation report, but it keeps your name in the mix when discussing raises/promotions. Not so much in that he is a good-guy sort of way, but helping out in corporate events, or volunteering helps build up networking. As well, your actions can be seen as an example of promoting the corporate image of that company.
> I would be curious as to what others think: either that it does not really do anything, or that you've seen instances where this occurs.


I think these are huge factors in distinguishing yourself. When people are just starting at entry level jobs, there are not a lot super projects given to jr people that will launch their careers. It's too risky. So organizing social events, charity fund raisers, etc can really show what you are like at managing projects. Are you organized, can you show proper planning, are you able to get people to do things, do think about the details and the big picture, etc. Some of the highest profile things I did early in my career were do social events, volunteer of course. I remember one of my first managers saying that it woudl be great to get people to go out and do something fun, but they could never get people to comitt. Well, I organized the first company ski trip, had our CEO co sponsor the social event, got a whole bus going, and people talked about it every year. I was told that it showed so many skills in terms of executing, getting people to committ, logistics, and that I was willing to do it for free, that there was a comittement to task. 

If your company has a large charity that they support, then that's a good one to get involved. We had a million dollar goal for the United Way, and it was a BIG event that our CEO personally believed in. I got involved with that the second year... etc.

Finally, socializing (in a productive way) with your co workers and bosses really helps. It's not a matter of sucking up, but if you are good at putting people at ease, they are more than likely willing to help you if you need it (and of course, you would do the same), and will have your back. We have a collegue that is really competent at their job, however, kepts to themself, and it's clear they never lend a hand, or do anything that doesn't help them directly. The person is nice, and not a bad person, but hasn't developed the relationships, despite the fact that they have been there for a while. As my other collegue said, if he had to choose, he knows who he would vote off the island. Being able to socialize, and show a human level, really helps, as you will have more life lines, and if you do screw up, they will more likely be more understanding.

I think career success comes from talent but also relationship for where you are lacking in talent.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't think I got the raise. I was told that they would "look into it". That sounds like a "no" to me.

In any case, that article is an interesting read. However, I don't think that would fly for most people in most jobs.

Good for him, though.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Sorry to hear that you may not have got it.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> In any case, that article is an interesting read. However, I don't think that would fly for most people in most jobs.


Forget the cover letter. Pay attention to the long-term game that kid plays.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

If higher education is not in the cards besides sales/trades there is also-firefighter/police officer/cost guard/para-medic ect-Very respected people in society(far from useless and declining demand) and are very well taken care of after employment ends.

Also transportation-railroad conductor/transit operators ect......times may have changed since 98 when i left high school.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Practically speaking you cannot progress beyond constable without a degree (in Ontario).


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm just taking ''stock" patrol(i have a friend that is a detective,plian clothes and he has high school,he might/prob went through the ''academy'' to advance to that.Not 100% sure.I do know they have awesome packages/benf ect(and above average salaries)


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Hey a kid that will go for coffee, pick up laundry and shine shoes! Plus he has no expectations for a job afterwards. And he will work for next to nothing! What's not to like!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It's actually pretty competitive to get into police, firefighting, etc. Not surprisingly, given the compensation. Given what Kae has said, I don't think either field is for him, as both involve having to endure heat and cold.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

andrewf said:


> It's actually pretty competitive to get into police, firefighting, etc. Not surprisingly, given the compensation. Given what Kae has said, I don't think either field is for him, as both involve having to endure heat and cold.


Yeah, the aversion to temperature extremes pretty much rules out any outdoor jobs in Canada. In my field, I've had heat stroke more times than I can count, and I've also been so cold I have had to, ahem, relieve myself in my clothes because my hands were too numb to manipulate buttons. On the plus side, never had university debt, made good money starting at 17, nice DB pension etc....


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

SkyFall said:


> so no degree = get a good sale rep job if you want a decent income?


He is already selling mutual funds. ;-)

The person that handles group rrsp plan for our company is really nothing more than gloryfied mutual fund sales person as this is what he/she pushes down our throats, has university degree, CFA, works for big 5 just like Kaej, and makes about $400K per year.

Being a good sales person requires specific talents not everyone has ;-)


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I do not think Kaes is looking to be a Director of Finance or anything like this but probably he could feel better about himself and his career goal if he found another job.He is beating his head against the wall if they deny this job.My friend started as a bank teller at CIBC 30 years ago and now has about 15 years experience as a Branch Manager.She has high school education but has done many courses and Training through her Employer and last year she got $56,000 worth of CIBC stocks as a bonus and a Brand New Branch because of her performance.So it can be done without a fancy education but in banking you have to back it up with numbers , what are your sales numbers like?


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

marina628 said:


> My friend started as a bank teller at CIBC 30 years ago and now has about 15 years experience as a Branch Manager.She has high school education


Maybe 30 years ago, but I think the bar is much higher in finance today. I don't think a HS diploma will get you very far (in finance) unless you REALLY stand out.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

That's what I say to all the 40-50-somethings that say "so and so only went to high school and look where the are now". Those days are gone. Even having an BA in English or Psychology usually gets the door slammed in your face.

I mentioned elsewhere my 50-something coworker who was recently 'retired'/packaged off. He's having a hard time with recruitment processes at other companies because of his lack of degree, even though he has great experience and contacts.


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