# Ukraine crisis - buying opportunities this week



## Siwash

I think markets will drop over the ned couple of days… things getting testy over there

Should be interesting


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## gibor365

I think it can be a good buying opportunity... I don't beleive that something really nasty will develop there... Putin is a smart guy and Obama mostly "talking head"


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## MoreMiles

Putin is a billionaire himself. He is not going to lose some billions from stock crashes. 

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-09-17/vladimir-putin-the-richest-man-on-earth

He is not a crazy guy with nothing to lose. He's got a lot at stake that can be lost. So I think nothing will happen.


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## swoop_ds

It would be amazing if the s&p500 dropped below 1800 but I highly doubt that it'll happen. But a man can dream!


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## thompsg4416

MoreMiles said:


> Putin is a billionaire himself. He is not going to lose some billions from stock crashes.
> 
> http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-09-17/vladimir-putin-the-richest-man-on-earth
> 
> He is not a crazy guy with nothing to lose. He's got a lot at stake that can be lost. So I think nothing will happen.


That article you posted doesn't really support your point in fact it's the opposite. Did you read it? 

Either way in a round about way I do agree with you. I just don't think he'll stop because he's worried about his personal fortune. I believe he'll stop because he's a calculating man and to go further then Crimea would be much more difficult - in many different ways including militarily. The repercussions globally would also be more significant. 

Anyway on the topic of the OP - as we discussed in another thread maybe keep your eye on RSX maybe OZGPY if you have the stomach for it. Interesting to see if there will be a broader sell off. I'm not sure personally, at least at this point.


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## Soils4Peace

I will be adding to PXH soon when I rebalance. Gazprom is the top holding.


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## thompsg4416

I don't see Gazprom here. Am I looking at the wrong one?

PowerShares FTSE RAFI Emerging Markets Portfolio (PXH)

TTM	Tata Motors Ltd	0.98%
MHID	Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd Gdr	0.51%
NPN	Nuveen Pennsylvania Muni Value Fund	0.46%
TLEVICPO	Grupo Televisa Sab	0.39%
SHF	Steinhoff International Holdings Ltd	0.38%
ASII	Astra International Tbk Pt	0.26%
493	Gome Electrical Appliances Holding Ltd	0.21%
GENT	Gentium Spa	0.2%
489	Dongfeng Motor Group Co Ltd	0.19%
IPL	Imperial Holdings Ltd	0.15%


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## MRT

PXH - top 10:

OGZPY	Gazprom OAO ADR	5.48
LUKOY	Lukoil OAO ADR	3.21
939	China Construction Bank Corp	2.43
PETR4	Petroleo Brasileiro SA	2.29
2330	Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co Ltd	2.22
PETR3	Petroleo Brasileiro SA	2.18
941	China Mobile Ltd	2.13
INFY	Infosys Ltd ADR	2.06
1398	Industrial & Commercial Bank of China Ltd	2.05
2317	Hon Hai Precision Industry Co Ltd	1.92


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## thompsg4416

Strange. I did another search and came up with the same one...... Not sure what I was looking at.


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## newfoundlander61

Just moved some extra cash into my TFSA after reading the paper and checking the Futures chart on CNN.


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## gibor365

I'm gonna add to DEM
The best Russian companies in top 10
1. Gazprom OAO 5.56%
2. China Construction Bank Corp 4.47%
3. Rosneft Oil Co 4.47%
4. Vale SA 3.51%
5. Industrial & Commercial Bank o3.17%
6. MMC Norilsk Nickel 2.79%
7. Lukoil OAO 2.31%
8. Bank of China Ltd 2.00%
9. Banco do Brasil SA 1.94%
10. MTN Group Ltd 1.78%


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## Siwash

Big drops today, especially Europe..

Amazing how people over react.. doesn't help when the British foreign secretary states, "this is the worst in the 21st century…"

We are not going to go to war over the Crimea…


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## Addy

Siwash said:


> We are not going to go to war over the Crimea…


I sure as hell hope not!


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## gibor365

_Russia put pressure on Ukraine from another direction when a spokesman for state gas company Gazprom said that Ukraine owed $1.59 billion in overdue bills for imported gas. Sergei Kuprianov was quoted by the RIA-Novosti agency as saying the gas arrears would endanger a recent discount granted by Russia. The discount lowered the price to $268.50 per thousand from other $400. The Russian payment demand and loss of the discount would accelerate Ukraine's financial crisis. The country is almost broke and seeking emergency credit from the International Monetary Fund. _
Gazprom can benefit in future if IMF starts help Ukraine with money. $1.59 billion it's pretty serious number  and Russia can cancel discounted price for Ukraine. 

_Crimea only became part of Ukraine in 1954 when Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev transferred jurisdiction from Russia, a move that was a mere formality when both Ukraine and Russia were part of the Soviet Union. The Soviet breakup in 1991 meant Crimea landed in an independent Ukraine. _

Most likely Crimnea will stay under Ukraine, but with even more special status ... in worst case (for Ukraine) it will became Russian satellite like Abhazia and S. Osetia ....
Don't beleive that any Western country will send troops to Crimea, as they will just get their asses kicked by Russians and Crimea's people who in majority supports Russia


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## andrewf

If this escalates into a shooting war, I would short Russia. Russia needs the West more than the West needs Russia. The gas may continue to flow, but expect severe sanctions for Russian oil exports. We might be on track for a repeat of Iran. China I don't think is too keen on Russia flexing its muscles in the neighbourhood.


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## andrewf

Also, annexing part of a neighbour is a really good way to push the rest of Russia's former empire into the arms of NATO + encouraging the implementation of measures to contain Russia's ability to wage war. Ie, missile defense systems, NATO troop deploymnts, etc. I really don't think this is a good long term strategy from a geopolitical standpoint. Russia would have had better long term success integrating their neighbours economically and exerting influence that way.


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> If this escalates into a shooting war, I would short Russia. Russia needs the West more than the West needs Russia. The gas may continue to flow, but expect severe sanctions for Russian oil exports. We might be on track for a repeat of Iran. China I don't think is too keen on Russia flexing its muscles in the neighbourhood.


Don't think you can compare Iran and Russia.... btw, China can understand Russia, as they have similar problem with Taiwan... and don't forget that about half of Ukrainian citizens support Russia (actually whole East and East-South) and in Crimea much more than half of people support Russia.

Sanction?! I doubt.....
_Countries ranging from Italy to the Czech Republic count on Russian supplies for their energy security. Germany, the bloc's economic powerhouse, is the biggest importer of Russian gas, which covers just under a third of Germany's overall gas needs, and is Russia's third-largest trade partner. German companies had $22 billion in direct investments in Russia in 2013.

"Economic sanctions against Russia would damage Germany itself," said Philipp Missfelder, a senior lawmaker and key ally of Chancellor Merkel. "Sanctions are always bad for Germany as an export-driven nation," he added.
_

_But NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen said after a meeting of the North Atlantic Council, the alliance's decision-making body that comprises ambassadors of all 28 allies, that nobody had invoked the clause "at this stage." European heavyweights like Germany and France appeared to rule out any moves that might lead to a widening confrontation with Russia, such as military action or even economic sanctions. _


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I really don't think this is a good long term strategy from a geopolitical standpoint. Russia would have had better long term success integrating their neighbours economically and exerting influence that way.


You are looking from Western point of view.... you need to know very good history of relationship and mentality of locals...

btw,








More dake area , more Russian speaking region


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## andrewf

Still, I don't think any of Russia's neighbours will respond well to a military annexation of territory. This act of aggression will just push them toward the west. If Ukraine was on the fence before, it isn't any more.

A large Russian population does not justify unilateral annexation of territory. Imagine China claiming/invading Vancouver because of the large ethnic Chinese population (or less fantastically, parts of Malaysia, Singapore, etc.). There was a way to do this to minimize international fallout. This was not it.


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## gibor365

How can you compare?! 
Crimea belong to Russia from 1783. "Crimea became part of Ukraine only in 1954, Crimea was historically part of Russia, and (Nikita) Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine in a gesture that mystified some people." Out of its 2 million residents, about 60 percent identify as Russian. That’s the highest concentration of Russian speakers in Ukraine.
and leader of Ukraine's autonomous Crimea region has asked Russian President Vladimir Putin for help to ensure peace.

and btw, China is still claiming that Taiwan - belongs to China, even though no Taiwan people want to join China 

another btw  China is largely "in agreement" over Ukraine, after other world powers condemned Moscow for sending troops into the country..... "Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Qin Gang said: "China has always upheld the principles of diplomacy and the fundamental norms of international relations.

"At the same time we also take into consideration the history and the current complexities of the Ukrainian issue." - from sky news


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## derp

gibor said:


> I think it can be a good buying opportunity...


I'm debating making a speculative purchase of OGZPY if it continues to fall. As an alternative, I'm also considering ERUS.


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## andrewf

Tatars and Ukranians living in Crimea won't take this lightly. Perhaps Putin plans to finish the ethnic cleansing started a few hundred years ago.


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## richard

Siwash said:


> Big drops today, especially Europe..
> 
> Amazing how people over react.. doesn't help when the British foreign secretary states, "this is the worst in the 21st century…"
> 
> We are not going to go to war over the Crimea…


It's certainly the worst thing to start in February 2014


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## uptoolate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teSXcJlpMl8

Couldn't resist this clip.


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Tatars and Ukranians living in Crimea won't take this lightly. Perhaps Putin plans to finish the ethnic cleansing started a few hundred years ago.


Give me a break... ethnic cleaning was in North America few hundred yers ago....
77% of Crimean inhabitants named Russian as their native language; 11.4% – Crimean Tatar; and 10.1% – Ukrainian.[6] In Crimea government business is carried out mainly in Russian. Attempts to expand the usage of Ukrainian in education and government affairs have been less successful in Crimea than in other areas of the nation...
Also, don't forget that average salary in Russia was twice higher than Ukranian even before crisis started....


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## thompsg4416

andrewf said:


> Still, I don't think any of Russia's neighbours will respond well to a military annexation of territory. This act of aggression will just push them toward the west. If Ukraine was on the fence before, it isn't any more.


Andrew - What neighbors are you referring to? Kazakhstan? The other stans - kyrgzstan, tajikstan? Belarus - Aremenia? Highly unlikely. I follow Russia and the CIS very closely. The worst part about all this for the west is that they have very few levers. They maybe kicked out of the G8... but economic sanctions when europe/ukraine are dependent on Russian gas will be tough.


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## thompsg4416

derp said:


> I'm debating making a speculative purchase of OGZPY if it continues to fall. As an alternative, I'm also considering ERUS.


I generally don't buy Russian or Chinese because I don't like the level of government involvement and interference in the economy. But I have purchased alot of OGZPY over the last couple trading days. I'm up to 1600 shares now. Worst case scenario short term is we haven't reached the bottom, although you have to wonder how low it can really go. It already traded at a PE of only 4 .. I just had a quick look at GAZPROM(MCX) and this recent drop has it trading at 2.24PE with a 5% Div.

I'm comfortable holding that short/medium term anyway. Long term I'll likely sell it all - perhaps hold onto a small position.


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## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> Andrew - What neighbors are you referring to? Kazakhstan? The other stans - kyrgzstan, tajikstan? Belarus - Aremenia? Highly unlikely. I follow Russia and the CIS very closely. The worst part about all this for the west is that they have very few levers. They maybe kicked out of the G8... but economic sanctions when europe/ukraine are dependent on Russian gas will be tough.


_Russia remains the largest and most important partner for Belarus both in the political and economic fields. The Treaty on Equal Rights of Citizens between Belarus and Russia was signed in December 1998, covering employment, an access to medical care and education. The two countries constitute the supranational Union State._
Also recently when having vacation in cancun I was talking to very rich Armenian families who confirmed that relationship between Russia and Armenia is very good and Armenia sees Russia as only country that can protect then from muslim surrounding countries


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## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> I'm comfortable holding that short/medium term anyway. Long term I'll likely sell it all - perhaps hold onto a small position.


I'm not really comfortable holding Russian stock directly.... I prefer DEM with 4.5% yield whom 4 top holdings out of 7 , the best Russian companies + VALE + 2 chinese banks... today bought more DEM
thompsg4416, it's funny when you are talking about government involvement in Russia, when whole world markets are staying afloat because of US Feds QEs


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## Longwinston

Russia is a slowly dying country. Population is shrinking, alcoholism is skyrocketing, freedom is collapsing, corruption abounds. 

This is Putin lashing out from an empire in a decades long death spiral. This is going to backfire against them bad as the EU will redouble efforts to get rid of the Gasprom leverage. Medium term, this is disastrous for RUS.


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## uptoolate

Sadly, this is probably true of Russia. The hope was that some of it's former holdings could escape the same fate.


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## andrewf

Long gas fracking in Europe?


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## gibor365

Longwinston said:


> . This is going to backfire against them bad as the EU will redouble efforts to get rid of the Gasprom leverage. Medium term, this is disastrous for RUS.


Just searched who is Gerhard Schröder and what he is doing! Also check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom_Germania
So where Germany gonna find gas?! In Ukraine?!

Looks like many of you guys were strongly brainwashed by US (and Canadian) propaganda... "US is always good, Russia is always bad"


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## thompsg4416

gibor said:


> thompsg4416, it's funny when you are talking about government involvement in Russia, when whole world markets are staying afloat because of US Feds QEs


You're right Gibor but I feel the difference is that QE is affecting the whole market not a single company. Where as you and I both know in Russia the fortunes of a company - even a big one like Gazprom - can very quickly change on the whim of the government.


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## thompsg4416

gibor said:


> Looks like many of you guys were strongly brainwashed by US (and Canadian) propaganda... "US is always good, Russia is always bad"


Gibor in the case of Russia I have to agree with you. The inability of a lot of people and the media to call a spade a spade lately is a bit humbling. Half of my family is Russian and I'm always the first to point to Canadian news sources as being better then those in Russia due to bias and state control but in this case... starting with the Olympics I've been put in my place. I suppose in both cases old attitudes take along time to change.


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## andrewf

A lot of it has to do with the fact that Russia is a horrible mess. For a while it looked like they might pull out of it, but they are going to remain backward and declining for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if, at this point, countries will start to withdraw from the Paralympics. US has decided to boycott. I wonder why Canada would fail to withdraw.


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## blin10

andrewf said:


> *A lot of it has to do with the fact that Russia is a horrible mess. For a while it looked like they might pull out of it, but they are going to remain backward and declining for the foreseeable future.*
> 
> I wonder if, at this point, countries will start to withdraw from the Paralympics. US has decided to boycott. I wonder why Canada would fail to withdraw.


you guys are so brainwashed with western media it's not even funny... so when USA invades countries it's ok nobody says a thing, when Russia has issue on it's border everyone sends threads to Russia, such a double standard... and they're not declining, future is bright for Russia with zero debt and all of the resources they have, just need to keep corruption in check


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## liquidfinance

gibor said:


> Looks like many of you guys were strongly brainwashed by US (and Canadian) propaganda... "US is always good, Russia is always bad"


So sad but true Gibor. Big bad Russia! I just watched a report on Global there was nothing but negative spin about Russia. Nothing at all from any people in Crimea. Only politicians. Talk about one side of the story.


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## blin10

Longwinston said:


> Russia is a slowly dying country. Population is shrinking, alcoholism is skyrocketing, freedom is collapsing, corruption abounds.
> 
> This is Putin lashing out from an empire in a decades long death spiral. This is going to backfire against them bad as the EU will redouble efforts to get rid of the Gasprom leverage. Medium term, this is disastrous for RUS.


lol, like I mentioned in the previous post, media is going a good job brainwashing you guys...

population shrinking? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_of_Russia.PNG seems like in the uptrend
alcoholism is skyrocketing? another myth, people in Europe drink more overall see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption
freedom is collapsing? if anything people have more freedom these days
corruption abounds? sure, corruption is a problem everywhere, maybe more in Russia but they'll figure it out

what's funny, west hate Putin for bringing Russia back, they rather see a sell out Gorbachev or alcoholic Yeltsin destroying country


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## Siwash

gibor said:


> _Russia put pressure on Ukraine from another direction when a spokesman for state gas company Gazprom said that Ukraine owed $1.59 billion in overdue bills for imported gas. Sergei Kuprianov was quoted by the RIA-Novosti agency as saying the gas arrears would endanger a recent discount granted by Russia. The discount lowered the price to $268.50 per thousand from other $400. The Russian payment demand and loss of the discount would accelerate Ukraine's financial crisis. The country is almost broke and seeking emergency credit from the International Monetary Fund. _
> Gazprom can benefit in future if IMF starts help Ukraine with money. $1.59 billion it's pretty serious number  and Russia can cancel discounted price for Ukraine.
> 
> _Crimea only became part of Ukraine in 1954 when Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev transferred jurisdiction from Russia, a move that was a mere formality when both Ukraine and Russia were part of the Soviet Union. The Soviet breakup in 1991 meant Crimea landed in an independent Ukraine. _
> 
> Most likely Crimnea will stay under Ukraine, but with even more special status ... in worst case (for Ukraine) it will became Russian satellite like Abhazia and S. Osetia ....
> Don't beleive that any Western country will send troops to Crimea, as they will just get their asses kicked by Russians and Crimea's people who in majority supports Russia


Well, that depends on what kind of military force is sent… Lets not forget that IF the US really wants to, it can obliterate any nation and nations combined very easily. 10 China's and 10 Russia won't stand up to the US technological advantages… 

Anyhow, the US (read Obama) has egg on its face cause it can't do anything… And putin new it all along.. he's played them (and West).

Germany won't side with US to sanction b/c of the natural gas it depends on USSR, err, Russia for


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## andrewf

blin10 said:


> you guys are so brainwashed with western media it's not even funny... so when USA invades countries it's ok nobody says a thing, when Russia has issue on it's border everyone sends threads to Russia, such a double standard... and they're not declining, future is bright for Russia with zero debt and all of the resources they have, just need to keep corruption in check


Sure, Russia has natural resources but they aren't enough to finance their deficits/waste/corruption. Only crazy people put capital at risk in Russia, because it is a kleptocracy that doesn't respect the rule of law. Russians have developing country level life expectancy, more than ten (!) years lower than the west. They have a rapidly aging and declining population. Russia is governed by an antidemocratic regime that suppresses freedom of speech and controls the media.

I thought ten years ago that the future was looking promising for Russia, these days I'm decidedly more pessimistic.


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## Siwash

blin10 said:


> lol, like I mentioned in the previous post, media is going a good job brainwashing you guys...
> 
> population shrinking? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_of_Russia.PNG seems like in the uptrend
> alcoholism is skyrocketing? another myth, people in Europe drink more overall see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption
> freedom is collapsing? if anything people have more freedom these days
> corruption abounds? sure, corruption is a problem everywhere, maybe more in Russia but they'll figure it out
> 
> what's funny, west hate Putin for bringing Russia back, they rather see a sell out Gorbachev or alcoholic Yeltsin destroying country



You are way off base. Sorry if you are Russian, but it's run by an ex-KJB despot who imprisons anyone he deems to be an obstacle to Russia's "greatness"

You realize he's killed or imprisoned journalists, gays, politicians and anyone doesn't like? 

Wikipedia as a source? No thanks…


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## andrewf

What's really funny is all the Russian sympathizers unironically concluding that people in the West are brainwashed by the media. He-larious.


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## Siwash

blin10 said:


> you guys are so brainwashed with western media it's not even funny... so when USA invades countries it's ok nobody says a thing, when Russia has issue on it's border everyone sends threads to Russia, such a double standard... and they're not declining, future is bright for Russia with zero debt and all of the resources they have, just need to keep corruption in check


You can say what you want about the United States, a nation that all of us here directly benefit from (economically, socially, culturally), but they don't hold a candle to Russia when it comes to injustice and crimes against humanity. 

Anyone remember this guy? http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin


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## thompsg4416

Siwash said:


> You can say what you want about the United States, a nation that all of us here directly benefit from (economically, socially, culturally), but they don't hold a candle to Russia when it comes to injustice and crimes against humanity.


You're right we do benefit from being partners and friends with the USA - and I'm happy to be friends with them. In fact of all the people in this world we as Canadians have the most in come with them. I really see that now having lived over seas for the 6 of the last 8 years. However a spade is a spade.. and people should call it(and report it) as it is. Not through rose colored glasses as the western media is doing.

Generally the people on this board seem generally quite informed however like with the media coverage on Russia of late I've been humbled. This is a geo-political battle to say it's anything else is to be fooling yourself. We(the west) have no problems working with tyrants in other countries as long as they suit our purpose and you know what? I'm cool with that - that's the reality of the world. However when anyone else does it - it's all of a sudden bad? Give your head a shake. We've cornered Russia and really haven't given them any choice.

Russia is doing ok and will continue to do ok. Things have been better(Business climate in Moscow isn't great since Luzhkov left) but they've certainly been worse. Corruption is a huge problem and will continue to be without serious structural reform. The average person is free.. they travel, go on the internet.. do all the things you and I do. To say otherwise is to be ignorant of the facts. However if you get involved with politics there could and most likely will be issues. ll I feel alot of the media go for the easy story - they stick to the old proven story lines and some people including some on this board eat it up. It's unfortunate.


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## gibor365

blin10 said:


> what's funny, west hate Putin for bringing Russia back, they rather see a sell out Gorbachev or alcoholic Yeltsin destroying country


it's very true! US just scared from strong leader like Putin and scared of strong Russia. They want to be the world gendarme and it's much easier when Russia is week.
US just would invade or bomb any weak country because they don't like their government. Remember Grenada, Panama, Serbia, Lybia, Iraq , Afganistan etc... ohhh embargo against Cuba (the biggest US enemy after Russia )... Any western country did any sanctions against US?! or yes, invasion of Grenada "it was criticized by the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United Nations General Assembly, which condemned it as "a flagrant violation of international law".[
And when Russia concerned about millions of their people in Ukraine, Russia became "disctatorship" ... It's not even double, it's triple-standards.
And yes, Germany will sit quiet, they already tried to invade Russia 

_10 China's and 10 Russia won't stand up to the US technological advantages… 
_
TYypical western brainwashing  Do you know who send 1st human to space?! 
Yes, there is corruption in Russia, but don't you remember our "sponsorship scandal"?!

_You are way off base. Sorry if you are Russian, but it's run by an ex-KJB despot who imprisons anyone he deems to be an obstacle to Russia's "greatness"

You realize he's killed or imprisoned journalists, gays, politicians and anyone doesn't like? 
_ Another great piece of western brainwash!!! Can you give name whom Putin killed?! 

btw, all this US propaganda about anti-gay law is complete BS... did you read this law? About 10 counties have such law: "Between 2006 and 2013, ten regions enacted a ban on "propaganda of homosexualism" among minors. The laws of nine of them prescribe punishments of administrative sanctions and/or fines. " 
Maybe you agree that it's OK to propagand gay life style among minors..... sorry, I don't


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## gibor365

Siwash said:


> You can say what you want about the United States, a nation that all of us here directly benefit from (economically, socially, culturally), but they don't hold a candle to Russia when it comes to injustice and crimes against humanity.
> 
> Anyone remember this guy? http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin


Nice one! You are bringing Stalin now?! ..and comparing to Putin?! They bring Hitler 
and compare with Merkel
or bring Mussolini or Mao 

have you heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism ?


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## gibor365

Heh heh
UK
The document was captured on camera as an official walked along Downing Street
The government will not curb trade with Russia or close London's financial centre to Russians as part of any possible package of sanctions against Moscow, according to an official document.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26426969

Ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych asked Russia to send troops across the border to protect civilians,.... he ousted leader had described Ukraine as on the brink of civil war, with civilians being persecuted simply for speaking Russian.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26427848


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## thompsg4416

gibor said:


> Heh heh
> UK
> The document was captured on camera as an official walked along Downing Street
> The government will not curb trade with Russia or close London's financial centre to Russians as part of any possible package of sanctions against Moscow, according to an official document.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26426969


Isn't that wild? Sometimes the media go to far. Nothing like undermining your countries negotiating position in the hopes of grabbing an extra headline.


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## martin15

gibor said:


> Heh heh
> UK
> The document was captured on camera as an official walked along Downing Street
> The government will not curb trade with Russia or close London's financial centre to Russians as part of any possible package of sanctions against Moscow, according to an official document.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26426969
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thompsg4416 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that wild? Sometimes the media go to far. Nothing like undermining your countries negotiating position in the hopes of grabbing an extra headline.
> 
> 
> 
> It's the same guy who took the famous picture of Diana in the see through dress 25 years ago.
> He's done the same to other ministers, you would think they would have learned something by now.
> The people who lead the West. :stupid:
> 
> So, the UK will do.. nothing.
> Germany will do .. nothing.
> The US will do .. nothing.
> 
> Ukraine has already lost, they just don't know it yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych asked Russia to send troops across the border to protect civilians,.... he ousted leader had described Ukraine as on the brink of civil war, with civilians being persecuted simply for speaking Russian.
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26427848
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, and Dubcek 'asked' the Russians to come into Czechoslovakia in 1968.
Click to expand...


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## dogcom

Blin10 is right about the western media brainwashing us even though Russia is still bad. I don't think the media will be so happy with their constant pumping for war or intervention like Syria before if the consequences turn out to be some kind of nuclear war. The US should stay out of the Ukraine and let Europe handle the situation and diplomacy with Russia. You have to remember that this is Russia's backyard and Russia will defend it.


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## Longwinston

gibor said:


> Just searched who is Gerhard Schröder and what he is doing! Also check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom_Germania
> So where Germany gonna find gas?! In Ukraine?!
> 
> Looks like many of you guys were strongly brainwashed by US (and Canadian) propaganda... "US is always good, Russia is always bad"


I didn't say anything that wasn't factual. Also, RUS leverage over EU in regards to gas is already waning - has been for the past 5 years.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christo...-situation-means-for-europes-energy-security/

If Canada and US start to build any amount of natural gas exporting facilities on the east coast, RUS is going to be in a world of hurt.


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## liquidfinance

Longwinston said:


> I didn't say anything that wasn't factual. Also, RUS leverage over EU in regards to gas is already waning - has been for the past 5 years.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/christo...-situation-means-for-europes-energy-security/
> 
> If Canada and US start to build any amount of natural gas exporting facilities on the east coast, RUS is going to be in a world of hurt.




Hmmm Quite a bit of leverage there and that is a bif "IF" with regards to Canada and the US



> One of the Europe's biggest potential levers over Russia, oil and gas, is also a weakness. Russia is the EU's biggest outside supplier, providing about 25% of its gas, worth almost $100m (£60m) a day, but precisely because Europe is so dependent it makes it an unlikely battleground. Europe does not have alternatives to make up the supply shortage - though, after a mild winter, it may have enough gas in storage to last several months.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26418179


----------



## Longwinston

andrewf said:


> Sure, Russia has natural resources but they aren't enough to finance their deficits/waste/corruption. Only crazy people put capital at risk in Russia, because it is a kleptocracy that doesn't respect the rule of law. Russians have developing country level life expectancy, more than ten (!) years lower than the west. They have a rapidly aging and declining population. Russia is governed by an antidemocratic regime that suppresses freedom of speech and controls the media.
> 
> I thought ten years ago that the future was looking promising for Russia, these days I'm decidedly more pessimistic.


Yes, nice summary Andrew. It really is depressing. Even moreso when people defend this craziness. There is no reason that Russia should not be a thriving, westernized society.
It's a shame really.


----------



## Longwinston

liquidfinance said:


> Hmmm Quite a bit of leverage there and that is a bif "IF" with regards to Canada and the US
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26418179


Yes, there is leverage, but less so than 2009. I suspect the trend to hold and Putin lose one of his big geopolitical levers which I suspect, is one of the reasons he is doing what he is doing now. It's an act of a person from a position of weakness, not strength. A gigantic LNG export facility is underway in Texas now. Rumours abound for a similar one near Saint John NB.

Yes, this is all geopolitics - Russia liked having a puppet in charge of Ukraine - when that changed it changed the geopolitical calculations and Russia was weaker as a result. However, Geopolitics is morally agnostic. Just because all powers engages in geopolitics doesn't mean that each power is as legitimate as the other. That is the hazard of moral equivalency, people who practice in it are no longer able to tell good from bad.


----------



## thompsg4416

Back to the op..... Nice bounce for ogzpy. I picked up 1000 shares yesterday - glad I did.


----------



## Just a Guy

What exactly is a "Russian"? Russia is larger and more culturally diverse than any other country in the world.

Let's make this in easier terms to understand... What is a Canadian? Does it mean the same thing in Quebec? How about Newfoundland, Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC? That new territory up north that most people can't even spell?

What is our uniting language? I know places in BC where they don't speak either...(I'm not even going to touch the French debate).

Who represents Canada, would that be Harper?

Since Canada can barely keep itself together with only two official cultures, imagine how Russia works...


I love the comment about decreasing population, alcoholism, etc....change the country to the USA or Canada and you could probably get away with the same biased attitude...heck, given the right "data" I could even prove it.

Remember to, countries like Russia, China, Japan, etc. evolved from a different cultural background than the western countries. It's not better or worse just different. Trying to judge them by a western viewpoint is just ignorant, we don't share the same upbringing. Our views are based in different experiences. 

People need to study a lot more history, it would give you a better insight into how other cultures think. We all tend to share the same values, and want to live and raise our families...but not everyone gets there the same way.

The Inuit have many different words for snow...can any English speaker explain why and what the nuances are? Probably not, because we don't share the same cultural background.


----------



## Nemo2

^ Well...speaking as someone with _extensive_ experience in Russia......I spent 4 hours in Moscow Airport last November..........:biggrin:


----------



## blin10

Siwash said:


> You are way off base. Sorry if you are Russian, but it's run by an ex-KJB despot who imprisons anyone he deems to be an obstacle to Russia's "greatness"
> You realize he's killed or imprisoned journalists, gays, politicians and anyone doesn't like?
> Wikipedia as a source? No thanks…


imprisoning oligarchs who stole a ton of money is not right? so the right thing to do, let them steel and get away with it?
name someone who he killed?
name a journalist that he imprisoned?
you and most people in north American think he's against gays and DID NOT read what the actual law IS, because of media... law is NOT against being gay, it's against promoting gay life style to children! in my books this law is legit, I wouldn't want someone promoting gay life style to undeveloped children... 

I also want to know one thing, USA has a friend/partner in middle east Saudi Arabia, and they are against gays (they sometimes kill them), women have no rights (can't even drive), they support terrorist groups, why is USA not saying anything there? so if you can buy cheap oil then human rights and democracy goes out of the windows? how does that work


----------



## andrewf

I guess the moral of this episode is that Eastern European countries need their own nuclear deterrent, because they can't rely on the West to defend their territorial integrity. I think Poland already knew that.


----------



## Longwinston

Just a Guy said:


> What exactly is a "Russian"? Russia is larger and more culturally diverse than any other country in the world.
> 
> Let's make this in easier terms to understand... What is a Canadian? Does it mean the same thing in Quebec? How about Newfoundland, Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC? That new territory up north that most people can't even spell?
> 
> What is our uniting language? I know places in BC where they don't speak either...(I'm not even going to touch the French debate).
> 
> Who represents Canada, would that be Harper?
> 
> Since Canada can barely keep itself together with only two official cultures, imagine how Russia works...
> 
> 
> I love the comment about decreasing population, alcoholism, etc....change the country to the USA or Canada and you could probably get away with the same biased attitude...heck, given the right "data" I could even prove it.
> 
> Remember to, countries like Russia, China, Japan, etc. evolved from a different cultural background than the western countries. It's not better or worse just different. Trying to judge them by a western viewpoint is just ignorant, we don't share the same upbringing. Our views are based in different experiences.
> 
> People need to study a lot more history, it would give you a better insight into how other cultures think. We all tend to share the same values, and want to live and raise our families...but not everyone gets there the same way.
> 
> The Inuit have many different words for snow...can any English speaker explain why and what the nuances are? Probably not, because we don't share the same cultural background.


A bunch of morally relativistic rubbish.

I like warm weather. Therefore I prefer the weather in Florida as opposed to the weather in the Maritimes, especially in the winter.
What your post amounts to is saying that both Florida and the Maritimes experience weather, so there should be no preference where I want to be to experience warm weather and if there is, it's because I am ignorant and should study meteorology...

There is a reason that there has been a mass migration spanning generations and tens of millions of people from the others parts of the world to the western world and not vice versa.
Moral Relativism encourages obtuseness and intellectual dishonesty all served up on a platter of smugness. Its an ugly business really.


----------



## Just a Guy

I think the migration is more people moving from densely populated areas to non-densely populated areas. The only time that seems to differ is when people move from the country to urban settings, but the reasons for that is different.

As for my post, had you actually read it, you'd realize that my comment had nothing to do with the climate, what I said, to use your examples, were people who live in the Maritimes are not the same as people in Florida and it's ignorant to assume they are, as they come from different cultural backgrounds.


----------



## liquidfinance

Longwinston said:


> Yes, there is leverage, but less so than 2009. I suspect the trend to hold and Putin lose one of his big geopolitical levers which I suspect, is one of the reasons he is doing what he is doing now. It's an act of a person from a position of weakness, not strength. A gigantic LNG export facility is underway in Texas now. Rumours abound for a similar one near Saint John NB.




Still quite a lot of leverage by the looks of this. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-Ukraines-gas-discount-and-demands-1.5bn.html


----------



## gibor365

blin10 said:


> imprisoning oligarchs who stole a ton of money is not right? so the right thing to do, let them steel and get away with it?
> name someone who he killed?
> name a journalist that he imprisoned?
> you and most people in north American think he's against gays and DID NOT read what the actual law IS, because of media... law is NOT against being gay, it's against promoting gay life style to children! in my books this law is legit, I wouldn't want someone promoting gay life style to undeveloped children...
> 
> I also want to know one thing, USA has a friend/partner in middle east Saudi Arabia, and they are against gays (they sometimes kill them), women have no rights (can't even drive), they support terrorist groups, why is USA not saying anything there? so if you can buy cheap oil then human rights and democracy goes out of the windows? how does that work


You just repeating what i said above 
To tell you the truth, current western (especially US ) propoganda toward Russia, reminds me very well anti-western propoganda during USSR period....  with "famous" - "...but USA Lynching ******"


----------



## gibor365

liquidfinance said:


> Still quite a lot of leverage by the looks of this.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-Ukraines-gas-discount-and-demands-1.5bn.html


Exactly what I said on this thread yesterday  "you want to be part of EU, pay like EU pays"


----------



## MoreMiles

I am surprised by all these Russian haters. I wonder how many of those have even been to Russia before. It is simply not fair to judge one's country and background without even being there.


----------



## andrewf

It's plenty fair to judge the government. I don't need to go to North Korea to know that their government is pure evil.

Average people are much like people everywhere.


----------



## blin10

andrewf said:


> *It's plenty fair to judge the government. I don't need to go to North Korea to know that their government is pure evil.*
> 
> Average people are much like people everywhere.


right, did they attack anyone? based on your logic America is worse then North Korea by invading countries left and right in the name of "democracy"


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> It's plenty fair to judge the government. I don't need to go to North Korea to know that their government is pure evil.
> 
> Average people are much like people everywhere.


Really?! I've read and heard how Americans view Cuba


----------



## gibor365

MoreMiles said:


> I am surprised by all these Russian haters. I wonder how many of those have even been to Russia before. It is simply not fair to judge one's country and background without even being there.


That's true  
I lived 23 years in Russia (even though half of my family from Ukraine), 10 years in Israel, 14 in Canada, travelled to about 30 countries include pretty long multiple travel to US...
Thus, I can compare


----------



## uptoolate

andrewf said:


> It's plenty fair to judge the government. I don't need to go to North Korea to know that their government is pure evil.
> 
> Average people are much like people everywhere.


Pretty much agree with this. Especially the first and last statements. Certainly looking at a night time picture from space of the region suggests that there is something seriously wrong in North Korea. I don't think anyone 'hates' Russians but certainly the government's use of force where none was likely warranted is offensive. No pun intended. All of the Russians (and Ukrainians) that I know are just regular people with regular aspirations.


----------



## andrewf

blin10 said:


> right, did they attack anyone? based on your logic America is worse then North Korea by invading countries left and right in the name of "democracy"


No, no it does not follow.

Anyway, the answer is yes. They attacked South Korea. The continue to periodically attack South Korea, including shelling islands near the border and sinking a South Korean naval vessel.


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Really?! I've read and heard how Americans view Cuba


Maybe some Americans (former Cubans and their descendants). Most Americans forget why the even started the embargo.


----------



## Nemo2

Castro's Cuba:

http://www.therealcuba.com/page5.htm


----------



## Longwinston

Just a Guy said:


> I think the migration is more people moving from densely populated areas to non-densely populated areas. The only time that seems to differ is when people move from the country to urban settings, but the reasons for that is different.
> 
> As for my post, had you actually read it, you'd realize that my comment had nothing to do with the climate, what I said, to use your examples, were people who live in the Maritimes are not the same as people in Florida and it's ignorant to assume they are, as they come from different cultural backgrounds.


Uh, I have family that live in Florida, so wrong even on the example. Lol
Different cultural backgrounds are nice, but there is no substitute for western culture. A culture that values half their population as chattel is always inferior to one who does not.


----------



## Longwinston

MoreMiles said:


> I am surprised by all these Russian haters. I wonder how many of those have even been to Russia before. It is simply not fair to judge one's country and background without even being there.


You are not being serious. None of us were ever in Nazi Germany, but I think we can all safely say it was an evil regime.
I don't hate Russia at all. I think Putin is a criminal and I feel sorry for the Russian people. Pointing out Russia's many deficiencies doesn't mean I hate Russians. I am capable of nuance you see.


----------



## Longwinston

blin10 said:


> right, did they attack anyone? based on your logic America is worse then North Korea by invading countries left and right in the name of "democracy"


For the love of Pete. Such is the illness of moral equivalency.
Ironically, you think you are being enlightened don't you? So silly
You should go over with Dennis Rodman next time.


----------



## Longwinston

uptoolate said:


> Pretty much agree with this. Especially the first and last statements. Certainly looking at a night time picture from space of the region suggests that there is something seriously wrong in North Korea. I don't think anyone 'hates' Russians but certainly the government's use of force where none was likely warranted is offensive. No pun intended. All of the Russians (and Ukrainians) that I know are just regular people with regular aspirations.


Well said. It's odd that some people are so defensive about Russia.


----------



## GoldStone

MoreMiles said:


> I am surprised by all these Russian haters. I wonder how many of those have even been to Russia before. It is simply not fair to judge one's country and background without even being there.


I read this thread end to end. I don't see any Russian haters here.

Putin haters, yes. Russian haters, no. That's not the same, is it?

Putin hate is well justified, IMO. I think he is pure evil. Too bad Russians are stuck with him for another 10 years.


----------



## GoldStone




----------



## Just a Guy

Longwinston said:


> Uh, I have family that live in Florida, so wrong even on the example. Lol
> Different cultural backgrounds are nice, but there is no substitute for western culture. A culture that values half their population as chattel is always inferior to one who does not.


So your family is representative of all Floridians now? Which ones the Cuban exiles or the swamp men? Heck, is there even a typical person from Florida?

I have to say, there's a big difference between newfies and people in Florida. As that old commercial used to go...I can tell a difference, can you tell a difference?


----------



## Just a Guy

Is that like the northern vietnam sank attacking the US ship to start the "police action" which later proved to be false and just propaganda?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident


----------



## thompsg4416

I'm not sure "stuck with Putin" would be the term I'd use. He does enjoy 60-70 percent real approval ratings -any western pollsters will agree. That said they would be stuck with him even if they didn't approve. Facts is, things are better under Putin then they have been for a long time. Personally I still think he needs to step aside and let in fresh ideas but when you've been through what Russians have been through the last 30 years - stability is important.


----------



## Longwinston

Just a Guy said:


> So your family is representative of all Floridians now? Which ones the Cuban exiles or the swamp men? Heck, is there even a typical person from Florida?
> 
> I have to say, there's a big difference between newfies and people in Florida. As that old commercial used to go...I can tell a difference, can you tell a difference?


Dude, I am not even sure what we are talking about now. Lol

Cheers


----------



## GoldStone

thompsg4416 said:


> I'm not sure "stuck with Putin" would be the term I'd use. He does enjoy 60-70 percent real approval ratings -any western pollsters will agree.


Only 70%, huh. I guess he is not as popular as Brezhnev or Stalin. Those two enjoyed 99.9%.

Putin's Russia is a benign dictatorship. People are free... except they are not allowed to form a real political opposition. With no real opposition and no real public debate, approval polls are meaningless.

By the way:

If he is so popular, why does he feel the compulsion to control every major TV channel? Or maybe it's the opposite? He controls every major TV channel... therefore he is so popular?


----------



## thompsg4416

No doubt about it - controlling the opposition and the television channels certainly doesn't hurt his position. The internet for the most part is free and usage is high especially in the cities. However in the regions, especially amongst older people usage is quite low. This will gradually change with time. 

My point was regardless of how he has achieved it he is genuinely popular in Russia, to say otherwise is to misstate the facts. Alot of things we the west consider bad or evil in the west are things supported by the citizens of russia. Laws such as the Gay propaganda act, putting ***** Riot in Jail. 

I for one believe its time for him to move on but just to sum it all up as he's an evil man and has to go, is to over simplify the facts. Unfortunately not everything is simply black and white as some like to paint it.


----------



## GoldStone

thompsg4416 said:


> My point was regardless of how he has achieved it he is genuinely popular in Russia, to say otherwise is to misstate the facts.


He may be popular in Russia but so what? Stalin was extremely popular, far more so than Putin. What does that tell you? Other than that people were badly brainwashed and didn't know any better?

You cannot claim that he is qenuinely popular as long as he runs a benign dictatorship, where no real opposition is allowed to exist (never mind have an equal access to TV channels or newspapers).

Let's just agree to disagree.


----------



## andrewf

Just a Guy said:


> Is that like the northern vietnam sank attacking the US ship to start the "police action" which later proved to be false and just propaganda?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident


If you are familiar with the incident in question, you know that this is implausible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking


----------



## donald

I just started a position in De(deere) Russia is a important growth story for this company and i hope this does not impact(doubt it will!)looked weak on the ticker today,still think i got in cheap with a nice yield.
Flordia swap people,choot em jacob,choot em....das a tree shaka,i'm prob the only here that watches this how,prob explains a lot lol


----------



## Eder

I think Russia learned a lot by watching the US over the last few years....now they are threatening to confiscate EU and US assets is Russia...sounds pretty familiar to me. 

Watching CNN the last couple days reporting on this incident has me convinced they are reading scripts prepared by the Obama government and calling it news...I think listening to the BBC has been the most informative on the Crimea without the ridiculous rhetoric of the CBC and American media.


----------



## Nemo2

Eder said:


> Watching CNN the last couple days reporting on this incident has me convinced they are reading scripts prepared by the Obama government and calling it news...


In a rapidly changing world it _could_ be considered reassuring that there are _some_ constants. :biggrin:


----------



## andrewf

Russia freezing foreign assets would serve to:

--collapse the ruble, and make Russia unable to access foreign capital markets
--give EU/US ample reason to hit Russia's regime where it really hurts: freeze the foreign assets of the oligarchs and withhold visas for them and their children.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> I think Russia learned a lot by watching the US over the last few years....now they are threatening to confiscate EU and US assets is Russia...sounds pretty familiar to me.
> 
> Watching CNN the last couple days reporting on this incident has me convinced they are reading scripts prepared by the Obama government and calling it news...I think listening to the BBC has been the most informative on the Crimea without the ridiculous rhetoric of the CBC and American media.


Agree about BBC


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> --give EU/US ample reason to hit Russia's regime where it really hurts: freeze the foreign assets of the oligarchs and withhold visas for them and their children.


Real "democracy" in action?!  Even Stalin said that "children are not responsible for parents' actions" 
Also I'm wondering who gonna decide who is oligarch?!

_“Economic sanctions are a double-edged sword, and if the US will freeze our assets, that means our companies’ dollar assets will be frozen too. That means Russian banks and organizations won’t be able to pay off loans to our American partners,” Glazyev said.

According to US Treasury data from the end of 2013, Russian investments in US government bonds total around $139 billion out of a total of $5.8 trillion of US debt held in foreign hands.
_


----------



## andrewf

Democracy doesn't require giving everyone a visa. And since Russia is such a wonderful place to live and get an education, excluding the children of oligarchs from Western schools is not punishment at all, right?

Are you trying to suggest that the US would have any problems as a result of Russia not buying US bonds? You'll recall their CB is buying the equivalent of the total stock of Russian-held US debt every two months.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf, I just can suggest that you are (together with couple of other guys) is just russophobe and discuss something with you its a waste of time.... you just weer brainwashed too strong....


----------



## andrewf

I'm not afraid of Russia nor do I hate it. I dislike the corrupt and immoral regime that's in power at the moment. It's comical that you are unwilling to acknowledge the obvious faillings of the same and accuse others of brainwashing.

Nor am I an American apologist. They've done plenty of awful things in the world and have plenty of their own problems with corruption in politics. You're the only one who seems to think corruption is okay as long as the other guy is doing it too.


----------



## GoldStone

Eder said:


> Watching CNN the last couple days reporting on this incident has me convinced they are reading scripts prepared by the Obama government and calling it news...I think listening to the BBC has been the most informative on the Crimea without the ridiculous rhetoric of the CBC and American media.


CNN or CBC coverage is irrelevant. They don't have any influence on the conflict in Ukraine.

OTOH, Russian media coverage is very much relevant. I've read Internet comments by Russians (living in Russia) who were amazed at the current propaganda levels in the Russian media. They said it feels like North Korea.


----------



## Longwinston

andrewf said:


> I'm not afraid of Russia nor do I hate it. I dislike the corrupt and immoral regime that's in power at the moment. It's comical that you are unwilling to acknowledge the obvious faillings of the same and accuse others of brainwashing.
> 
> Nor am I an American apologist. They've done plenty of awful things in the world and have plenty of their own problems with corruption in politics. You're the only one who seems to think corruption is okay as long as the other guy is doing it too.


Hear hear, well said.


----------



## gibor365

US is trying to put all countries on their knees, only Russia and to some degreee China are trying to prevent it... How many independent countries US invaded?! You cannot compare even close to any other country... In Europe practically everyone hates Americans.... when they travel they even pretend to be Canadians.... 
Just take new anti-democratic US law called FATCA. Except US "The only other country with similar tax rules for expats is Eritrea." FATCA goes against "Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.", bur who cares ...US tells, Canada will comply....
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/can...lled-to-share-clients-info-with-u-s-1.2437975

_Overseas Americans have a tough time opening new bank accounts or have seen existing accounts abruptly closed, ahead of U.S. Treasury reform tackling tax evasion, according to advocates and lawmakers._
http://www.ibtimes.com/americans-ab...y-fatca-tax-evasion-reform-comes-play-1517032

_Americans Renouncing Citizenship Up 221%, All Aboard The FATCA Express_
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertw...izenship-up-221-all-aboard-the-fatca-express/


----------



## thompsg4416

One of the better articles I've seen written on this situation. 

*http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/the-ukraine-crisis-through-the-whimsy-of-international-law-1.2559980* 

Disclaimer here: Vladimir Putin's proclaimed justification for invading Ukraine — protecting Russian-speaking "compatriots" in that country from some imagined violence — stinks of tribalism.

His rationale is essentially ethnic nationalism, something responsible for so much of the evil done throughout human history.

Stated motivation aside, though, what Putin is doing is really no different from what other world powers do: protecting what they regard as national self-interest.


----------



## Nemo2

As seen by The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/



> According to a poll released Monday by the Pew Research Center, the escalating conflict between Russia and Ukraine has left Americans sharply and bitterly divided along ignorant and apathetic lines, with the nation’s citizenry evenly split between grossly misinformed and wholly indifferent factions.
> 
> “The very real threat of a Russia-Ukraine war has completely polarized the general public, pitting two deeply entrenched blocs against one another: those who have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about and those who couldn’t care less,”


----------



## humble_pie

i don't think the folks on here who are open-minded are Moscow lovers. There are a couple of posters here who have significant lifelong experience in russia. I for one think it's a privilege & a benefit to be able to read what gibor has to say, for example.

not saying i agree w gibor 100% but hearing the point of view from one born & raised in the realpolitik is a treat.

i'm also picking up something intriguing from putin's rare interviews on the crimea. There seem to be tiny early indications that he's wandering, mentally. No journo from major media has said as much, they're just reporting putin's remarks verbatim, but it sounds like the leader of all the russias is possibly beginning to drift slightly. Ageing can do that to one.

those insistences that the obviously well-equipped well-trained russian-speaking soldiers driving those multi-million-dollar armoured vehicles are nothing more than a rag-tag gaggle of crimean locals dressed up as vigilantes, for example. Outré. Why would putin or any other russian even imagine that the west would believe. Not realistic. Something slipping here ...


----------



## thompsg4416

For the most part I understand even if I don't agree with what the Kremlin is doing. However that's the one thing I just don't get. What's the point of it? He's been very cold and calculating with everything ..... But that just seems senseless, inconsequential even at this point. He can't really think people are that stupid so he must have a reason....


----------



## humble_pie

thompsg4416 said:


> ... He can't really think people are that stupid so he must have a reason....



i take it you mean the continuing insistence that the unmarked soldiers & armoured vehicles are local vigilantes?

i submit again the possibility that the leader of all the russias is mentally starting to slip, ever so slightly. IE vladimir putin doesn't have a reason for thinking that the west will believe him; instead it's a sign he may be drifting.

a piece of yellow/black humour is that the West was so hyper-concerned about terrorist attacks at Sochi during the olympics. Yet the whole time russia was preparing this massive, incredibly well-organized attack on the crimea. Look at the invasion details, they are breathtaking. Right down to manufacture & procurement of the unmarked uniforms. The russia/crimea campaign had to have been secret months in the making.

i never saw a single leak. The operation was successfully masked until the olympics were over. Putin himself worked to strengthen the mask by maintaining the Sochi terrorist protection campaign so visibly & so noisily, thus drawing world attention in the wrong direction.

on that strategy - organizing an armed invasion in secret - putin's mind is clearly firing perfectly. It's only when he rambles to the media that a small degree of slippage begins to show, imho.

one thing about such slippage, if it's age-related: it's not going to stop or reverse.


----------



## thompsg4416

Yes the troops he says aren't Russian but obviously are.... You say slippage - I dunno. You think he said it without thinking and has decided to stick with it because??? Your explanation is better then mine but I still don't get it.


----------



## humble_pie

please may i spell it out?

the troop/materiel nonsense may be an early sign that age-related dementia is setting in ... 

it's not a spur-of-the-moment-oops-i-forgot mistake. It was planned in secret months ago. It's not possible to deploy an unmarked military occupation/buildup on that scale without heavy preparation beforehand. That putin would even imagine he could pretend something else is suggesting - to me - that there's some slight mental slippage.


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> that there's some slight mental slippage.


To quote a member of another administration that uses similar "Who me?" approaches, "What difference does it make?"..................both know that their acolytes will support them regardless of all evidence to the contrary..................in fact, what better way of asserting your predominance than indicating that you are in a position to do/say whatever you feel like, regardless of how transparent your actions?


----------



## humble_pie

nemo it does make a difference

it's not putin's acolytes he's performing for, it's the far more important stage of world opinion

this is the critical theatre that doesn't believe him. Putin's posturing weakens his position, which is the exact opposite of what he should be wanting. This is why i say that a tiny emerging degree of mental deterioration may be present.


----------



## Nemo2

http://news.yahoo.com/big-power-talks-ukraine-crisis-little-progress-003521587--business.html

Crimea's parliament voted to join Russia.


----------



## GoldStone

humble_pie said:


> i'm also picking up something intriguing from putin's rare interviews on the crimea. There seem to be tiny early indications that he's wandering, mentally. No journo from major media has said as much, they're just reporting putin's remarks verbatim, but it sounds like the leader of all the russias is possibly beginning to drift slightly. Ageing can do that to one.
> 
> those insistences that the obviously well-equipped well-trained russian-speaking soldiers driving those multi-million-dollar armoured vehicles are nothing more than a rag-tag gaggle of crimean locals dressed up as vigilantes, for example. Outré. Why would putin or any other russian even imagine that the west would believe. Not realistic. Something slipping here ...


Major media has not said anything on the matter, as far as I know.

Bloggers, of course, are free to call it like they see it.

Is Putin a Psychopath, or Does He Just Play One on TV?

I read the transcript of Putin's interview. I agree with the blogger. Putin's state of mind is disturbing.


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> it's not putin's acolytes he's performing for, it's the far more important stage of world opinion


 China, (likely with Taiwan, etc, in mind), has already come onside; Barry Soetoro, and mashed potato face Kerry are impotent & incompetent.......and, for most of the world, appearances equal 'facts', (what did bin Laden say about "A strong horse"?)...........I'm afraid 'world opinion' might be somewhat overrated.



humble_pie said:


> This is why i say that a tiny emerging degree of mental deterioration may be present.


My medical understanding hasn't progressed beyond trying to get Band-Aids to stay on, so you may be right....I wouldn't know.


----------



## Nemo2

GoldStone said:


> Is Putin a Psychopath, or Does He Just Play One on TV?


Before reading the article, I was contemplating posting a similar reference to this quote:


> And that raises another possibility: that Putin was playing the psycho for effect. The Slavic version of Nixon’s Madman Theory, and which Machiavelli wrote about centuries earlier: he wrote that leaders can find it “a very wise thing to simulate madness.”


"The mining of Haiphong Harbor" anyone?


----------



## humble_pie

provisionally i'm thinking that a referendum will indeed be held in the crimea later this month & that a certain majority will vote to join russia. But how much of a majority?

would be interested to hear what probability odds knowledgeable parties like gibor & thomps might give the referendum vote? for starters one might hazard a guess 60-75% vote yes join russia, remaining 25-40% vote no.

as with quebec referendii, everything depends on the wording of the question. I'm wondering whether, if the referendum question asked Do you want greater autonomy/independence for Crimea, in that case would the yes majority be higher than for a join-russia question.

me i think a referendum vote might be higher for independence than for join-russia. Such a vote would also be more palatable to the west.

PS a vote by parliament is not the same thing as a vote by popular referendum.


----------



## Just a Guy

I think the results of the referendum will probably depend more on who counts the votes...

Think Bush in Florida...before people start blaming Russia for fixing elections...

Had Putin been smart, he could have claimed that the Ukraine had WMD's and then later said he was wrong... Oh wait, that's been done before too...


----------



## thompsg4416

Certainly interesting. I think It depends on the question. From what I read it's between more autonomy within Ukraine or to join Russia. If that's the case the vote is already in for Russia and this is likely genuine.. Although will certainly be fixed.

If they were smart they should of had an option for separation... Putin could have looked like the good guy for having a "free and fair" election and still would of had defacto control. 

I'm starting go think the end game is a bit more chauvinistic then that tho. Russia wants to flex their muscles and show what they are capable of. They will have The Crimea... Simple as that.


----------



## thompsg4416

Respondents will be asked: 'Are you in favour of Crimea becoming a constituent territory of the Russian Federation?' The second question will be: 'Are you in favour of restoring Crimea’s 1992 constitution?'


----------



## andrewf

Nemo2 said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/big-power-talks-ukraine-crisis-little-progress-003521587--business.html
> 
> Crimea's parliament voted to join Russia.


With all the legitimacy that comes along with having tens of thousands of the annexing country's troops occupying the territory.


This is akin to France annexing Quebec via a PQ vote in the National Assembly while French troops stood outside. They have to protect their linguistic compatriots from the anglo menace.

Putin is not senile. The "who, me?" routine is just a fig leaf for legal reasons, I expect. Russia will forever record in its history that mysterious forces seized control of Crimea, and Russia was nary involved. Even though everyone knows it is Russia, if you repeat a lie often enough it will eventually become true.


----------



## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> They have to protect their linguistic compatriots from the anglo menace.


As I alluded to on the other Ukraine thread, there is an underlying _Sudetendeutsche_ factor that will be taken advantage of whenever possible.


----------



## sags

The news coverage I have seen, has shown the Russian soldiers being greeted as welcome guests, by the general public in Crimea.

The news also reports that most of the people feel more affinity towards Russia...........than to the rest of the Ukraine.

The Crimea going back to an alignment with Russia, seems like a natural event to occur.


----------



## MoreMiles

Ukraine got their say to leave Russia when USSR collapsed. So why shouldn't Crimea be given the same opportunity? Double standard, eh?

Also, Ukraine's debt problem is worse than Greece... and EU still wants to accept them?! Hasn't Germany learned anything from the Greece fiasco? Why let in another loser to your union? It will just weaken the bond.


----------



## andrewf

MoreMiles said:


> Ukraine got their say to leave Russia when USSR collapsed. So why shouldn't Crimea be given the same opportunity? Double standard, eh?


What about Chechnya, then?


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> One of the better articles I've seen written on this situation.
> 
> *http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/the-ukraine-crisis-through-the-whimsy-of-international-law-1.2559980*
> 
> Disclaimer here: Vladimir Putin's proclaimed justification for invading Ukraine — protecting Russian-speaking "compatriots" in that country from some imagined violence — stinks of tribalism.
> 
> His rationale is essentially ethnic nationalism, something responsible for so much of the evil done throughout human history.
> 
> Stated motivation aside, though, what Putin is doing is really no different from what other world powers do: protecting what they regard as national self-interest.


Finally normal and balanced article in Western media 
I liked what almost President McCain said "A frustrated Senator John McCain demanded that rich Russians be barred from Las Vegas"  What an idiot! Just imagine that cops and FBI will be searching for "rich Russians" in casinos and strip clubs  Lokks like casino and strip club stocks need to be shorted 
Also McCain should probose to ban "rich Russians" from Disneyland


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> provisionally i'm thinking that a referendum will indeed be held in the crimea later this month & that a certain majority will vote to join russia. But how much of a majority?
> 
> would be interested to hear what probability odds knowledgeable parties like gibor & thomps might give the referendum vote? for starters one might hazard a guess 60-75% vote yes join russia, remaining 25-40% vote no.
> 
> as with quebec referendii, everything depends on the wording of the question. I'm wondering whether, if the referendum question asked Do you want greater autonomy/independence for Crimea, in that case would the yes majority be higher than for a join-russia question.
> 
> me i think a referendum vote might be higher for independence than for join-russia. Such a vote would also be more palatable to the west.
> 
> PS a vote by parliament is not the same thing as a vote by popular referendum.


Agree that a lot depends on wording the question. There are 3 posibilities:
1. Crimea becomes kinda independent country like Abhazia or Kosovo
2. Crimea will join Russia
3. Crimea , that acually The Autonomous Republic of Crimea , will stay under Ukraine, but will get much more independence with one laws , regulations and official language (a la Quebec).

Regarding %, imho about 70-75% would like to join Russia or be independent.
Now in Ukraine 3 biggest nations:
58.32% Russians
24.32% Ukrainians
12.10% Crimean Tatars

about 100% Russians will like to join Russia, but I;m pretty sure that NOT 100% Ukrainians would like to stay in Ukraine! I lived in Siberia and we had a lot of Ukrainians, and about 80% even didn't know Ukraine language, they felt Russians. Even now from total 37,541,693 Ukrainians living in whole Ukraine, 5,544,729 are Russian speaking (15%)!
The most unpredictable are Crimean Tatars, during USSR they hated USSR because what Stalin did to them (actually i also hated USSR when I lived thre ), but on other hand Russia is completely different , free country now and also, even before Ukraine economical crisis), Russia average salary doublle Ukrainian one in $ equivalent..., so I estimate 50/50 for Crimean Tatars. Majority of other , smaller nations will most likely support Ukraine, jewish 100% , everyone remember what Bendera and Shuhevich did to us)


----------



## gibor365

I'd advise you to read very interesting book "The Island of Crimea ("Остров Крым" – "Ostrov Krym", 1979)" written by V. Aksyonov 
_"When The Burn was published in Italy in 1980, Aksyonov accepted an invitation for him and his wife Maya to leave Russia for the US."[2] "Soon afterwards, he was stripped of his Soviet citizenship, regaining it only 10 years later during Gorbachev's perestroika."[2]

"Aksyonov spent the next 24 years in Washington, D.C. and Virginia, where he taught Russian Literature at George Mason University."[2][3] "He [also] taught literature at a number of [other] American universities, including USC and Goucher College in Maryland... [and] worked as a journalist for Radio Liberty."[4]
_

just to mention.... my uncle lived in Crimea, I visited him for couple of months, also we rented cottege there...yes, it was during USSR, but don't think that people changed


----------



## andrewf

The planned referendum is apparently not terribly legal. And given how rushed it is, it is likely just window dressing for the Russian takeover:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_autonomy_referendum,_2014

Canada, the US and Germany have already said they consider the referendum to be illegal and illegitimate.


----------



## MoreMiles

Canada should mind their own business first. They cannot even control their own separatist from running an election. What will happen to a Quebec referendum with unilateral decision then? If it is not, why can't there be a federal constitution law to ban it?

So I think it's a joke that Canada is commenting on the legality of referendum in other countries, when there is the same problem at home.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> The planned referendum is apparently not terribly legal. And given how rushed it is, it is likely just window dressing for the Russian takeover:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_autonomy_referendum,_2014
> 
> Canada, the US and Germany have already said they consider the referendum to be illegal and illegitimate.


What a joke! And what about referendums in Quebec?!
Don't even Reference to talk about Germany  Crimea was under German control about 3 years...... looks like they want it again 
Oh...and last one "democracy planter" US and A  ... I think they want to say that occupation of Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua (the list can be very long) was " legal and legitimate" ?!
!

Obviously they are scacred of referendum as about 75% of Crimea will vore for Russia !

and Tyrchunov telling "it is a farce"! Yes, people's opinion it is a farce for those nazionalists

Minister Baird said we aren't recognizing the new referendum in Crimea. 

I wonder do we change our position on KOSOVO - part from Serbia. or independent country ?!


----------



## gibor365

Can anyone explain me why all western countries recognized Kosovo referendum and telling that Crimea case is "illegal and illegitimate" ?! Again double-standards!


----------



## MoreMiles

I guess it's the same reason how USA can set up a military base in a Cuban bay but not Russia in Ukraine. I agree it's double standard and hypocrite.


----------



## andrewf

MoreMiles said:


> Canada should mind their own business first. They cannot even control their own separatist from running an election. What will happen to a Quebec referendum with unilateral decision then? If it is not, why can't there be a federal constitution law to ban it?
> 
> So I think it's a joke that Canada is commenting on the legality of referendum in other countries, when there is the same problem at home.


Now this is profoundly ignorant. Do you seriously not know anything about the Clarity Act and the SC reference about secession referenda? And you live in Canada?

The fact that Canada has a mechanism for arriving at a political solution is a strength not a weakness. If Canada tried to exclude sovereignists from the political process, the FLQ could have blossomed into the kind of terrorist insurgency Russia faces in their subjugated regions, such as Chechnya.


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Can anyone explain me why all western countries recognized Kosovo referendum and telling that Crimea case is "illegal and illegitimate" ?! Again double-standards!


In Kosovo's case, there was a Serbian ethnic cleansing campaign. Is that happening in Ukraine?


----------



## andrewf

MoreMiles said:


> I guess it's the same reason how USA can set up a military base in a Cuban bay but not Russia in Ukraine. I agree it's double standard and hypocrite.


This is a red herring. No one is saying Russia's lease of the Sevastopol naval base is a problem. The problem is Russia invading the rest of the Crimea.


----------



## gibor365

Like those comments on http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-pm-rejects-crimea-referendum-vows-to-defend-country-1.2561973
A lot of people much smarter than our politics are thinking


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> This is a red herring. No one is saying Russia's lease of the Sevastopol naval base is a problem. The problem is Russia invading the rest of the Crimea.


No Russia invading, Crimea majority wants to join Russia! If you talk about invasion , talk about US


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> In Kosovo's case, there was a Serbian ethnic cleansing campaign. Is that happening in Ukraine?


Again US propoganda


----------



## blin10

andrewf said:


> In Kosovo's case, there was a Serbian ethnic cleansing campaign. Is that happening in Ukraine?


once new illegal government took control, first thing they did they REMOVED law that made Russian as an official SECOND language, it tells you a lot about their future motives...
second thing they did, in few cities they put oligarchs billionaires in charge, that's a spit in the face to people who want democracy...


----------



## Just a Guy

Yeah, good thing we don't have things like that in Canada...bill 101.


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Again US propoganda


So, no mass graves full of dead Kosovars? Do you deny the Holocaust, too, as more US propaganda?


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> No Russia invading, Crimea majority wants to join Russia! If you talk about invasion , talk about US


Are there Russian soldiers on Ukrainian soil without authorization of the Ukrainian government? I know Putin says no, but the rest of the world (including the Russian public) know that to be a lie.


----------



## Longwinston

andrewf said:


> So, no mass graves full of dead Kosovars? Do you deny the Holocaust, too, as more US propaganda?


Never ask questions you don't want to hear the answer to. 
By the sound of some on here everything in Russia is awesome. Kind of begs the question of them coming here and learning English instead of more of us being there speaking Russian. Clearly, the west is doing something better than Russia or that wouldn't be what is happening. But maybe I am just brainwashed. Lol

With that I am done with this topic. Tensions appear to have tapered off somewhat is a good thing for all of us.


----------



## andrewf

blin10 said:


> once new illegal government took control, first thing they did they REMOVED law that made Russian as an official SECOND language, it tells you a lot about their future motives...
> second thing they did, in few cities they put oligarchs billionaires in charge, that's a spit in the face to people who want democracy...


None of that justifies invasion.


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Can anyone explain me why all western countries recognized Kosovo referendum and telling that Crimea case is "illegal and illegitimate" ?! Again double-standards!


The only United Nations member who recognised the result of the referendum was Albania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovan_independence_referendum,_1991#Aftermath

Learn to fact check.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> So, no mass graves full of dead Kosovars? Do you deny the Holocaust, too, as more US propaganda?


Democratically elected President Yanukovych sent letter to Putin: Quoting from Mr Yanukovych's letter, Mr Churkin said: "Ukraine is on the brink of a civil war. In the country there is chaos and anarchy.

"Under the influence of Western countries there are open acts of terror and violence. People are being persecuted for language and political reasons.

"So in this regard I would call on the president of Russia, Mr Putin, asking him to use the armed forces of the Russian Federation to establish legitimacy, peace, law and order, stability and defending the people of Ukraine," he read.

Regarding Kosovo , violence was from both sides....
And if even you are right (and you are not) regarding "graves".... than how many graves of Russians will be enough for to justify referendum?
Unfortunately people who lives in Ukraine know very well what can do Ukrainian nationalist and what they did during German occupation... And the most active killers Bandera, Shuhevich got from current neo Nazis title "Hero of Ukraine"


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> The only United Nations member who recognised the result of the referendum was Albania.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovan_independence_referendum,_1991#Aftermath
> 
> Learn to fact check.


Maybe you need to learn ... Practically all Western countries recognized Kosovo as independent country. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Maybe you need to learn ... Practically all Western countries recognized Kosovo as independent country.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo


Your original post referred to Kosovo referendum. This is what you said:

_Can anyone explain me why all western countries recognized Kosovo referendum and telling that Crimea case is "illegal and illegitimate" ?! _

Kosovo referendum happened in 1991. No one recognized it except Albania.

Your most recent post refers to Kosovo declaration of independence in 2008.

1991 vs 2008. Get it?


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## andrewf

So we should take Yanukovych at face value, yet everything the US says is a lie....


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## gibor365

Longwinston said:


> Never ask questions you don't want to hear the answer to.
> By the sound of some on here everything in Russia is awesome. Kind of begs the question of them coming here and learning English instead of more of us being there speaking Russian. Clearly, the west is doing something better than Russia or that wouldn't be what is happening. But maybe I am just brainwashed. Lol
> 
> With that I am done with this topic. Tensions appear to have tapered off somewhat is a good thing for all of us.


Yes, you are!
Just learn the history! We immigrated from USSR, not from Russia! (those 2 completely different entities, just think about Nazi Germany and current Germany). Majority of immigrants were Soviet Jewish, German, Greeks....Now immigration is not significant at all... Majority of my family still leave in Russia, Sibir and don't have intention to immigrate anywhere, even though they could've done it easily (for example Israel will give them citizenship at arrival to Tel Aviv) .
Now Russia by itself have a huge number of immigrants:
"No one knows the exact number of immigrants working in Russia, with estimates ranging from 3.6 to 11 million" http://valdaiclub.com/economy/64860.html
or "There are an estimated 4 million illegal immigrants from the ex-Soviet states in Russia.[1]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_in_Russia
Also there are a lot of immigrants from China, Vietnam etc


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> Your original post referred to Kosovo referendum. This is what you said:
> 
> _Can anyone explain me why all western countries recognized Kosovo referendum and telling that Crimea case is "illegal and illegitimate" ?! _
> 
> Kosovo referendum happened in 1991. No one recognized it except Albania.
> 
> Your most recent post refers to Kosovo declaration of independence in 2008.
> 
> 1991 vs 2008. Get it?


So , it's even worse .... no one recognized referendum, but when Kosovo just announced independence (exactly what Crimea did today!) , our Western democracies" recognized it right away! What a joke!

_Kosovo's declaration of independence from Serbia was enacted on 17 February 2008.[1][2] International reaction was mixed, and the world community continues to be divided on the international recognition of Kosovo.
As of 11 February 2014, the Republic of Kosovo has received 110 diplomatic recognitions as an independent state. Notably, 108 out of 193 (56%) United Nations (UN) member states, 23 out of 28 (82%) European Union (EU) member states, 24 out of 28 (86%) NATO member states, and 35 out of 57 (61%) Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) member states have recognised Kosovo._


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> So we should take Yanukovych at face value, yet everything the US says is a lie....


US should care about their own business, Obamacare , QE etc...
If US will start to build military bases in Crimea, Russia can start doing the same in Cuba and only God knows what will happen


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## andrewf

^ That is totally irrelevant. The US is not talking about building bases in Crimea. Of course, now that Ukraine has been betrayed by Russia, I think they will be very interested in NATO membership. So maybe you'll get your wish for NATO bases on Russia's border...


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> In Kosovo's case, there was a Serbian ethnic cleansing campaign. Is that happening in Ukraine?


Kosovo declared independence in 2008, and what happened in 2004?! Not Serbian ethnic cleansing campaign, but completelly opposite!
_Violent unrest in Kosovo[a] broke out on 17 March 2004. Kosovo Albanians, numbering over 50,000,[6] took part in widescale attacks on the Serbian people, compared by the then Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Koštunica to ethnic cleansing[1] It was the largest violent incident in the province since the Kosovo War of 1998-99. During the unrest, 19 civilians were killed (8 ethnic Serbs and 11 ethnic Albanians), over 4,000 Serbs were forced to leave their homes, 935 Serb houses, 10 public facilities (schools, health care centers and post offices) and 35 Serbian Orthodox church-buildings were desecrated, damaged or destroyed, and six towns and nine villages were ethnically cleansed according to Serbian media_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_unrest_in_Kosovo


----------



## GoldStone

andrewf said:


> ^ That is totally irrelevant. The US is not talking about building bases in Crimea. Of course, now that Ukraine has been betrayed by Russia, I think they will be very interested in NATO membership. So maybe you'll get your wish for NATO bases on Russia's border...


NATO has a rule against admitting new members that have an active territorial dispute with another country.

By creating a territorial dispute, Russia effectively blocks Ukraine's bid for NATO membership.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> ^ That is totally irrelevant. The US is not talking about building bases in Crimea. Of course, now that Ukraine has been betrayed by Russia, I think they will be very interested in NATO membership. So maybe you'll get your wish for NATO bases on Russia's border...


Yeah, they never talk, they just build! "Ukraine has been betrayed by Russia" - give me a break , Russia offered $$$ help with much better conditions than EU....
.... than US will get Russian bases on Cuba ... Do you really want it?


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> NATO has a rule against admitting new members that have an active territorial dispute with another country.
> 
> By creating a territorial dispute, Russia effectively blocks Ukraine's bid for NATO membership.


Country shouldn't be member of NATO for US to send army there. For example, Georgia is not member of NATO, but US troops were deployed there


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> For example, Georgia is not member of NATO, but "Georgia is home to a significant number of United States military bases and installations. The Army has Fort Benning and Fort Gordon, the Navy has Kings Bay Submarine Base, and the Air Force has Robins Air Force Base and Moody Air Force Base. "


That's Georgia state, one of 48 continental United States. Not the other Georgia, an independent country in The Caucasus (partially occupied by Russia).

Sigh.


----------



## thompsg4416

Can someone please explain to me why we're discussing the merits of international law? I think its become very clear that when dealing with a select group of countries (USA, Russia, GB and to a lesser extent France and China) international law does not apply. Listening to each of them tell the other what is and what isn't right is a farce. They'll say something isn't right(as per international law) one day and then the next find a pretext for breaking that same law. So lets drop it. 

This is an ages old chess game - with no moral high ground. For me what is interesting is trying to analyze and figure out the next move. This most recent move was years in the making - since the fall of the CCCP the west has been making huge gains. Now Russia is waking up again and has clearly drawn the line when it comes to thier "near abroad". "Either you're with us or you're against" (LOL sound familar?) but if you're against us your country as you know it won't continue to exist. They've sent a clear signal to the rest of the former CIS as well. In the grand game of chess this is quite interesting. The US no the other hand really has to figure out how far they can extend themselves and how much they are willing to put on the line to defend their interests in Ukraine. Strategically the Ukraine means nothing to them other then to hem in Russia. So I don't expect they'll do much.


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Yeah, they never talk, they just build! "Ukraine has been betrayed by Russia" - give me a break , Russia offered $$$ help with much better conditions than EU....
> .... than US will get Russian bases on Cuba ... Do you really want it?


What makes you think Cuba is interested in hosting a Russian naval base? This isn't 1962.


----------



## andrewf

GoldStone said:


> That's Georgia state, one of 48 continental United States. Not the other Georgia, an independent country in The Caucasus (partially occupied by Russia).
> 
> Sigh.


Sigh indeed. gibor is just acting as a Russian apologist.


----------



## andrewf

The other amusing dynamic here is the portrayal of Russia as a competing global power. Russia is a developing country of 140 million, posturing against a billion people living in the richest counties in the world.


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## gibor365

The question is who started all mess:
_We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. ” Nuland said the United States will continue to “promote Ukraine to the future it deserves.”_
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm


----------



## gibor365

I'm pleasantly surprised that so many Canadians understand what is really going on in Crimea...Just couple of comments fro cbc.ca readers 
I'm thinking
Why are we following the U.S.A. supporting the New illegitimate Regime of Nationalist Thugs who took power by rioting in the capital (Kyiv) because they did not agree with the decision of their government to go with the Russian trade agreement . 

It seems these days if one riots in their respective capital they will receive the blessing of Mr. Obama. 

After all it's the business of the so called free world or should I say Mr. Obama who decides who stays in power and who does not... » more

4 hours ago 6 Likes
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Reply

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davidmccaig-Zapdam
davidmccaig-Zapdam
Last time America was faced with the same situation of an elected government in power opposed to Americas capitalistic way of life, only a few miles from its shore, Ronnie Reagan sent in the military and crushed in Small island state of Grenada.


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## thompsg4416

andrewf said:


> The other amusing dynamic here is the portrayal of Russia as a competing global power. Russia is a developing country of 140 million, posturing against a billion people living in the richest counties in the world.


??? I'm glad you find it amusing. Developing country yes no doubt - although of the BRICS the most developed(on a PPP basis). They also have the 8th largest economy in the world. They are the largest gas exporter and the 2nd largest oil exporter in the world. Militarily although not as powerful as they once were are still formidable enough especially with their nuclear deterrent to prevent the west from doing anything.

This kinda sounds like a competing world power to me. In fact begrudgingly given their position, the EU would probably beg to differ with your assessment. Are they on equal footing to the US? No. I'm not sure anyone is saying that and if they are then they should get off whatever it is they are on.


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> I'm pleasantly surprised that so many Canadians understand what is really going on in Crimea...


Are you sure that *you* understand what is going on there?

Is there a possibility, however remote, that *your* understanding is wrong?

Just wondering.


----------



## andrewf

Given his confusion of the Georgias, my guess is he's just googling stuff and posting talking points from Russian propagandists. Not seeing much independent thought here.


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## favelle75

gibor said:


> I'm pleasantly surprised that so many Canadians understand what is really going on in Crimea...



Outside of actual Ukraine, doesn't Canada have the most Ukranians??


----------



## gibor365

As geopolitical analysts from across the board explain, the Ukrainian coup has been deliberately provoked by outside agents to promote a combination of US, EU, NATO and IMF interests. Perhaps more worrying than the interference itself are its potential implications. As Russia's every move is now being scrutinized for a possible military response to the ongoing crisis, the specter of a larger military operation now hangs over Eastern Europe.

Must watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCAQUs0yPeY&feature=youtu.be


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## gibor365

_The Russian speaking majority in Crimea have just as much right to decide their own future in a referendum as anyone else. 
When Kosovo wanted to break free from Serbia the West was all for that-why the hypocrisy and double standard with Crimea? 

A referendum in Crimea is not "legitimate" while a bunch of bandits taking over the government in Kiev is considered "legitimate" ? 
Are you serious? 

The people who paid for hooliganism in Kiev and hired snipers to shoot protesters and police -driving out the democratically elected government in Kiev started this whole mess. Putin is merely reacting in a way that best secures peace in this volatile region. 
The world should be investigating who paid for the lawlessness in Kiev that started all this-it certainly was not Putin_


----------



## thompsg4416

favelle75 said:


> Outside of actual Ukraine, doesn't Canada have the most Ukranians??


4th most outside Ukraine according to Wiki:

(In Millions).
Russia 2.942-4.379
Kazakhstan	896.2-2,400	
USA 500-2,000	
Canada 1,000	
Brazil 1,000	
Moldova 600.4-650
Poland 360-500 

That said the many of them are not recent immigrants(I.E mostly 2nd, 3rd gen) so although they maybe Ukrainian and sympathize with Ukraine how Ukrainian are they? IMHO after 1st gen it gets pretty sketchy, although individual cases vary.


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Must watch:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCAQUs0yPeY&feature=youtu.be


So you literally are just copying and pasting talking points. 

I notice that the outfit behind this cartoonishly anti-American propaganda is based in Montreal. Are you affiliated, gibor?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/about


----------



## humble_pie

could the character assassination of gibor please stop.

the value he brings to this thread, for myself as a reader, is that he was born & raised in russia, only emigrating at the age of 23 to israel where he became a military officer, if my memory serves me correctly.

gibor would have grown up under the soviet regime, i believe? clearly he has a feeling for the russian point of view. Or shall we say points of view, since there is undoubtedly a vast spectrum of views on the ukraine even within the kremlin.

it's mean to harass gibor about minor points, imho. English is not his first language. He is not a scholar/academic by profession.

me i usually look for a variety of views & beliefs. Here in canada we're getting the official story from ottawa & washington loud & clear.

oh man are we ever getting it loud & clear. The revolutionary government that seized power in kiev last month is the legitimate government, goes the official story. Any move to the contrary by russia or its leader putin proves that they are all bad, crazy, mental, outrageous violators of international law who must be opposed by every means short of nuclear war, goes the official story.

we'll see. My tentative hypothesis at the moment (i have an open mind though) is that a large part of the story has to do with NATO & the west wanting to establish an air force base in the ukraine ... close to the russian border ... but first the west needs to establish & support a pro-western government in kiev ... in this scenario, the US appears to be more gung-ho on a ukraine military base than is germany ...

as gibor has tried to post in this thread, the US has a long history of destabilization efforts, on every continent, in almost every country on earth.


----------



## Longwinston

GoldStone said:


> That's Georgia state, one of 48 continental United States. Not the other Georgia, an independent country in The Caucasus (partially occupied by Russia).
> 
> Sigh.


LOL
This is what we are dealing with. LOL


----------



## thompsg4416

Yes it's unfortunate he made the mistake regarding Georgia. However he has attempted to make one thing very clear, and I agree with him 100 percent in that in the last 25 years the west has set a very dangerous precedence. We've been very active in supporting regimes and destabilizing regimes (democratic or not) when it suits our interests. Then when someone else does the same thing we become more catholic then the pope. To me it's hypocritical. Everyone loves a hypocrite!! If it's wrong when Russia does it, it's certainly wrong when we do it. I hope all the same people here who are against Russia's actions, were against all the other wars the west has engaged in over the last 20 years. I for one have no idea but I think it's worth mentioning. 


HP you raise an interesting point regarding the airbase. Do you think an airbase there would be anymore beneficial then one in Poland or even better, one in the Baltics? I do think their interest in Ukraine is definitely about Russia but maybe more about limiting its allies.


----------



## GoldStone

humble_pie said:


> My tentative hypothesis at the moment (i have an open mind though) is that a large part of the story has to do with NATO & the west wanting to establish an air force base in the ukraine ... close to the russian border ... but first the west needs to establish & support a pro-western government in kiev ... in this scenario, the US appears to be more gung-ho on a ukraine military base than is germany ...


They don't need Ukraine for an air force base. They have Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. All NATO members. All on the Russian border, or very close to it.

But let's suppose that you are right. Annexation of Crimea does not prevent American base in the rest of Ukraine in any way. Ukraine is a large country.

No one knows the real motivation behind Crimea annexation. It's all in Putin's mind. We can't read it.


----------



## thompsg4416

I think Putins motivation is actually pretty clear - demonstrate to the near abroad and the West that Russia will defend its interests. More importantly any country with active border disputes with another country can not join NATO. Georgia nor Ukraine are eligible to join. Prevent NATO/ the west expanding on thier borders.


----------



## Nemo2

Russia requires the warm water port of Sevastopol and will do what they need to do to retain/maintain it.


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> we'll see. My tentative hypothesis at the moment (i have an open mind though) is that a large part of the story has to do with NATO & the west wanting to establish an air force base in the ukraine ... close to the russian border ... but first the west needs to establish & support a pro-western government in kiev ... in this scenario, the US appears to be more gung-ho on a ukraine military base than is germany ...


The US already has Turkey and Latvia as a NATO members, which is already quite close to Russia. I don't think Ukraine is of much strategic value in that sense.

I do think that on balance, the West prefers pro-West governments. This is hardly earth shattering. That doesn't prove that they orchestrated a coup against a wildly popular Yanukovych regime. And call me crazy for thinking that Ukraine would be better off in the long run embracing western values than turning back to Russia again. Being part of Russia's empire didn't work so well the last time.


----------



## andrewf

Nemo2 said:


> Russia requires the warm water port of Sevastopol and will do what they need to do to retain/maintain it.


This is exactly what this is about. Not concern for ethnic Russians and the hypothetical threat against them.


----------



## Homerhomer

Given the migration in and out of the region, be it forced, voluntary or related to the army bases I find it difficult to figure out what would be the best solution to the region. The Russian population of Crimea is high percentage wise but that is partly because many Crimean Tatars have been forcefully removed in the last century. 

Either way I found the below chronology quite informative.

http://www.refworld.org/docid/469f38ec2.html


----------



## dogcom

The US would like nothing better then to surround Russia with a missile shield. In fact they want to do everything possible to weaken Russia and put it in its place. They wanted Syria so they could pipe gas from Qatar to Europe and hurting Gazprom. They did their test bail-in in Cyprus where rich Russians have deposited money. They do all this while making it look like democracy or whatever and use all the bought and paid for media to send us their message. 

None of this suggests Russia wouldn't do the same or worse if they had the chance but it is good to know what really is motivating the US to see if we in the west want to be part of this or not.


----------



## humble_pie

GoldStone said:


> 1) They don't need Ukraine for an air force base. They have Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. All NATO members. All on the Russian border, or very close to it.
> 
> 2) But let's suppose that you are right. Annexation of Crimea does not prevent American base in the rest of Ukraine in any way.




i don't agree with either of these 2 statements. On the contrary, i think they are misleading.

1) afaik NATO has satellite air bases in italy, turkey & norway, not in the list of countries mentioned in the quote.

the principal NATO AFB is located in western europe. NATO also has extensive military links & privileges in each of its member countries & is allowed to use their military bases. However it does not have NATO bases capable of permanently supporting fighter & surveillance aircraft in those countries.

for example, yesterday NATO flew additional russia-watching missions into the baltic states via an air base in lithuania. These were six US aircraft recruited from a base in england. Baltic missions are deployed out of lithuania, i believe, not out of latvia as another member has mistakenly posted.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/tech...tvia+Estonia+amid+regional/9586356/story.html

2) goldstone may i also inquire why you are dictating so peremptorily that NATO does not "need Ukraine for an air force base" ?

i am wondering how you would know this, or why you would say this? are you a military defence analyst? i do not think so.

furthermore, there is a difference between a United States AFB & a NATO AFB. The US needs NATO to carry the flag. The US has not built a new standalone dedicated air force base in any other country for many years. Would face extreme difficulties trying to build one today, given the geopolitics.

a NATO base is somewhat more palatable to its allies.


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> not out of latvia as another member has mistakenly posted.


No one said that. I think you mistakenly mistook.



> are you a military defence analyst? i do not think so.


Are you? Aren't we all just armchair observers, here?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> And call me crazy for thinking that Ukraine would be better off in the long run embracing western values than turning back to Russia again. Being part of Russia's empire didn't work so well the last time.


OK, than I will call you what you are asking for  Ukraine is one country only on the map , in reality it's 2 very different countries with different mentalities and values. Maybe we will let them decide what is better for them?! Why do you so strongly oppose referendum in Crimea?! Because you know and US and EU knows that will be the outcome. 
My brother's wife is from Eastern (industrial) Ukraine and all her family live there, my cousin's family from Ukraine and live in canada, all of them support Russia..... but maybe andrewf knows better....


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> The US would like nothing better then to surround Russia with a missile shield. In fact they want to do everything possible to weaken Russia and put it in its place.


Cannot say better


----------



## Homerhomer

andrewf said:


> And call me crazy for thinking that Ukraine would be better off in the long run embracing western values than turning back to Russia again. Being part of Russia's empire didn't work so well the last time.


Ofcourse they would have been better, don't need to look far, many of the former eastern block countries are thriving in comparison (Poland, Hungary and so on), mind you they were better off even during the communism regime and had somewhat of an easier start but still the proof is in he pudding. In countries like Poland changes in the last 20-30 years are stunning, in other places things are so bad they wish Stalin was back, and those places keep close ties to Russia.


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> OK, than I will call you what you are asking for  Ukraine is one country only on the map , in reality it's 2 very different countries with different mentalities and values. Maybe we will let them decide what is better for them?! Why do you so strongly oppose referendum in Crimea?! Because you know and US and EU knows that will be the outcome.
> My brother's wife is from Eastern (industrial) Ukraine and all her family live there, my cousin's family from Ukraine and live in canada, all of them support Russia..... but maybe andrewf knows better....


I think a free and fair referendum is fine. But unless all sides agree to the terms of the referendum, it has no legitimacy. A quicky referendum held while Russian troops hold the territory is questionable.

By the way, would you extend the same opportunity to Chechnya? You didn't answer the question last time. 

You seem to be incoherent on the right for self-determination. You were criticizing Canada for giving Quebec clear rules and fair and reasonable terms for determining whether they will secede from Canada.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I think a free and fair referendum is fine. But unless all sides agree to the terms of the referendum, it has no legitimacy. A quicky referendum held while Russian troops hold the territory is questionable.
> 
> By the way, would you extend the same opportunity to Chechnya? You didn't answer the question last time.


But Western countries don't even want to hear about it! I agree that it should be "a free and fair ". I also would agree with "viewers" (or how you call them) from EU during the referendum.
and yes I'd agree with same opportunity to Chechnja , even though I'm less familiar with the situation, I've never been in this region.


----------



## gibor365

Homerhomer said:


> Ofcourse they would have been better, don't need to look far, many of the former eastern block countries are thriving in comparison (Poland, Hungary and so on), mind you they were better off even during the communism regime and had somewhat of an easier start but still the proof is in he pudding. In countries like Poland changes in the last 20-30 years are stunning, in other places things are so bad they wish Stalin was back, and those places keep close ties to Russia.


You cannot compare Poland, Hungary and so on to Ukraine, "Poland, Hungary and so on" never been part of CCCP.

Without Communist revolution, Russian Empire also would be much better , just check ecomomical numbers in 1913 
"in other places things are so bad they wish Stalin was back, and those places keep close ties to Russia" - do you know what are you talking about?!
Just let you know, during CCCP all those republic were living much better than Russia, they were heavily subsidized by government (like QC here in Canada)... Now Ukraine lives 2-3 times worse than Russia , they need to find who is guilty....obviously it's easy to blame Russia 
Up to now, Russia was selling gaz to Ukraine with huge discount and still Ukraine had debt of 2billion!


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> is that he was born & raised in russia, only emigrating at the age of 23 to israel where he became a military officer, if my memory serves me correctly.
> 
> gibor would have grown up under the soviet regime, i believe?
> 
> .


It's correct more or less  I served in Israeli army and worked for about 7 years in Israeli police as invistigator and later FIS... as Israel is 20-25% of former Soviet citizens from different rebuplics, I had o lot of interactions.
And yes, obvioulsy I was raised during Soviet regime, I immigrated from CCCP in 1990. At that time my CCCP citizenship was revoked and I should've pay 3 monthly salaries for forced returning my citizenship. Also I was allowed to leave CCCP only with $160! So, you can undestand that I don't really like CCCP, but it's not fair to compare CCCP to current Russia, the same way as it's not fair to compare Deutsches Reich to current Germany.


----------



## Homerhomer

gibor said:


> You cannot compare Poland, Hungary and so on to Ukraine, "Poland, Hungary and so on" never been part of CCCP.
> 
> Without Communist revolution, Russian Empire also would be much better , just check ecomomical numbers in 1913
> "in other places things are so bad they wish Stalin was back, and those places keep close ties to Russia" - do you know what are you talking about?!
> Just let you know, during CCCP all those republic were living much better than Russia, !


I think you are unwillingly proving exactly what I said ;-)
If you claim that I can't compare Poland and Hungary since they were not part of Soviet Union than you are saying that the closer the tie the worse they are, and that's exactly what I said.
Economical numbers in 1913 Russia are pathetic, and the number for the most part aren't worth the paper they were written on, if everything was so good in Russia who would want communism? ;-), Obviously my comment regarding Stalin was a big stretch, but it does illustrate the point, and yes, I know what I am talking about ;-)

I just with the conflict will be resolved without further victims, but knowing human nature and politicians nature this am afraid is an unlikely scenario. Even armchair politicians like here on the board can't have civil disagreements so what do you expect '-)


----------



## humble_pie

wondering what battling on about life in russia from the time of the tsars to the fall of the soviet union has to do with this thread topic each:

topic is buying opportunities during ukraine crisis

thread could also have been named buying/selling opportunities during ukraine crisis

it's entirely possible that a black swan might unfold its wings. The other shoe hasn't dropped yet. Horses should be held. Let's all stick to the knitting. Any other metaphor u can think of will be fine.

but let's stick to the crimea market ripple, which includes all the recent violence/invasion stories. Who in this thread right now is caring about life under stalin.


----------



## gibor365

Homerhomer said:


> If you claim that I can't compare Poland and Hungary since they were not part of Soviet Union than you are saying that the closer the tie the worse they are, and that's exactly what I said.


It's not true, some countries like Hungary or East Germany were better than CCCP, some like Romania or Poland were worse...


----------



## Homerhomer

gibor said:


> It's not true, some countries like Hungary or East Germany were better than CCCP, some like Romania or Poland were worse...


Romania, possibly with Nick in power and even that would be debatable, Poland as bad as it was it was way better than SU both from the point of economical and freedoms.


----------



## Nemo2

Further to the previously mentioned Machiavellian use of (feigned) 'madness' as a tactic:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...dying-putins-body-movement-for-clues/6116281/



> A Pentagon research team is studying the body movements of Russian President Vladimir Putin and other world leaders in order to better predict their actions and guide U.S. policy, Pentagon documents and interviews show.
> 
> The "Body Leads" project backed by the Office of Net Assessment (ONA), the think tank reporting to Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, uses the principles of movement pattern analysis to predict how leaders will act.


Which is all very well if you discount the fact that the opposition knows what you're doing and adjusts their body language accordingly.


----------



## humble_pie

as long as we're going to natter on about stalin, poland & body language, i suppose it's OK to lob in that putin is growing to resemble the ageing Pierre Trudeau.

trudeau's ancestral fraction of aboriginal bloodline was well-known. It was thought he offered the information in a creative way to canadians by wearing a fringed buckskin jacket to paddle a birchbark canoe in the opening frames of brian mcKenna's epic trudeau biopic.

putin & trudeau senior have the same slavic/tartar eyes, the same reptilian look, the same cheekbones. Putin's by direct descent, trudeau by way of the first nation ancestors who crossed to north america from siberia some 400,000 years ago.

recently i was looking at a photo of Justin Trudeau & noticed how he is finally beginning to resemble his father. Going going gone are the boyish movie star good looks that justin inherited from his beautiful mother. Emerging now are the cunning eyes & the crafty face of his father, the northern magus. Justin will need those to survive in politics at the top.

in other crimea-related market news, i still believe the other shoe could drop. Market-wise.


----------



## gibor365

Homerhomer said:


> Romania, possibly with Nick in power and even that would be debatable, Poland as bad as it was it was way better than SU both from the point of economical and freedoms.


It won't be dabatable not regarding Romania (those guys had electricity and TV couple of hours per day and solgiers with AK47 were guarging huge lines to buy basic food), not regarding Poland escpeshially during Jaruzelski


----------



## gibor365

btw, any Ukranian ETF , long or short?


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> Going going gone are the boyish movie star good looks that justin inherited from his beautiful mother.


Ah, but he retains her, (lack of), brains. :rolleyes2:


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> as long as we're going to natter on about stalin, poland & *body language*


Wasn't it you who introduced the theory of Alzheimer's.....(based such observations)?


----------



## andrewf

Russia is actually one of the cheapest countries on a CAPE basis. That means high cost of capital for Russian firms, but fairly attractive expected returns for investors.


----------



## humble_pie

did russia not just close the gas pipe to kiev? maybe story got it wrong ...


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> did russia not just close the gas pipe to kiev? maybe story got it wrong ...


Not yet, but it's close
_Russian energy giant Gazprom on Friday warned Ukraine it could cut off gas exports if the new authorities in Kiev did not pay a bill for debt that now stands at $1.89 billion.
"Ukraine has de-facto stopped paying for gas... We cannot deliver gas for free. Either Ukraine pays the debt and pays for current supplies or the risk appears of a return to the situation at the start of 2009," said Gazprom chief executive Alexei Miller, quoted by Russian news agencies. 
Gazprom in 2009 cut off gas to Ukraine in a move that also left much of the EU without supplies. Europe imports around a third of its total gas needs from Russia.
Miller said that Friday was the final cut-off date for payments for February's gas deliveries to Ukraine. 
"Gazprom has not received the payment on its account. The debt due has increased and is now $1.89 billion (1.36 billion euros)," he added.
_
http://news.yahoo.com/gazprom-warns-ukraine-could-cut-gas-exports-164448630.html

Or every one thinks that Russia should gave gaz for free?! Sorry, Russia is not Salvation Army... 

So, who is gonna pay Ukrainian bills?! Obama, Merkel or maybe .... Harper?!


----------



## humble_pie

thanks for info

don't u think though that russia is just tooting itself up first & foremost in the list of payees who are to be paid as soon as the IMF & the west start dumping those promised millions on kiev?

i thought i read that the US has already started to dish some dollars?


----------



## GoldStone

A friend told me that discounted gas was part of the navy base deal between Russia and Ukraine. Russia got the navy base lease until 2041. Ukraine got the annual cash payments and the discounted gas prices.

Now that Russia annexed Crimea, it no longer has to discount the gas.

Of course, this is hearsay. The details of the deal are not public. But it sounds plausible.


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Or every one thinks that Russia should gave gaz for free?! Sorry, Russia is not Salvation Army...
> 
> So, who is gonna pay Ukrainian bills?! Obama, Merkel or maybe .... Harper?!


Why are you so giddy about this?

The elimination of the gas discounts will hurt every ordinary Ukrainian, including ethnic Russians. It might hurt badly, because Ukraine population is generally quite poor. Do you not care about them?

Today at work, I had a chat with a Russian co-worker. He immigrated to Canada from Ukraine. He still has family back there. He said that according to his family, Putin's heavy-handed tactics are creating a backlash among ethnic Russians who are normally very sympathetic towards Russia.


----------



## GoldStone

humble_pie said:


> in other crimea-related market news, i still believe the other shoe could drop. Market-wise.


I agree. I don't think it's possible that markets fully processed Ukraine/Crimea/Putin.

I added to my CNQ and SU positions on Wednesday (part of my unbundled Canadian ETF). Once markets internalize the current events, I expect that oil prices are going higher.

Geopolitical tensions --> Higher oil prices
Higher oil prices --> More $$$ in Putin's pocket
More $$$ in Putin's pocket --> More aggressive Putin
More aggressive Putin --> More geopolitical tensions
More geopolitical tensions --> Higher oil prices
...


----------



## dogcom

Wasn't the ousted president of Ukraine democratically elected in the first place? I also have heard that protesters were paid to protest by the west.
http://voiceofdetroit.net/2014/03/02/is-the-u-s-backing-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/

Or how about the sniper shooting controversy in Ukraine.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...-new-coaltion-stunning-new-leak-reveals-truth

The US is trying to defend the dollar as the world reserve currency after failing in Syria and Iran. The US dollar is held up by military muscle not allowing countries to settle by other means. Russia and China are starting to deal and do trade deals in currency other then the US dollar. The bankers and central banks are losing their grip on the world and do not want to go down without a fight. Of course we can't get anything in by the mainstream media so there is a lot to think about and everything is not as simple as we have been told I believe.


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> The elimination of the gas discounts will hurt every ordinary Ukrainian, including ethnic Russians. It might hurt badly, because Ukraine population is generally quite poor. Do you not care about them?


On the other hand it will benefit people who lives in Russia! Even with huge discount Uktaine already own 2 billion $ for gaz! Just tell me why Russia should waive those charges? Probably they will waive for friendly country like Belorus, but not for enemy state which Ukrainian leaders want to make this country. 
Also Russia can use those 2 billion $ + profit for full gaz price for voluntary return Russians from Ukraine to Russian Federation. They can give for every family $$$ and housing... they did it in past for refugees from extremists muslim republics.


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> Wasn't the ousted president of Ukraine democratically elected in the first place? .


Sure he was! Russia offered to Ukraine much better help with much better conditions. So, obviously President agreed to accept Russian help, but EU and especially US couldn't tolerate it.... They staged all protests and putsch.... Officially US spend 5 billions on Ukraine, they called it "to make Ukraine more democratic"....what a joke!
Just watch youtube I published yesterday on this thread, US and EU had very hot discussion whom they will plant in new Ukranian parlament! It was even recorded (US assistant sec state Victoria Nuland and the US envoy to the Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt) US like to "plant" clorored "democracies" around the world


----------



## gibor365

dogcom, thanks for the link:
Exactly what I suspected, now it's comfirmed
_So first US orchestrates the Kiev overthrow, and now the new "leaders" of Ukraine are allegedly found to have fired against their own people - the same provocation they subsequently used to run Yanukovich out of the country and install a pro-Western puppet government. Of course, said pro-Western coalition has not been discreditated (sic) because Ms. Ashton has sternly refused to investigate, knowing quite well how horribly this would reflect on the new Ukraine "leadership" - a government which shot its own people to fabricate the pretext under which it rose to power.

Is it any wonder then that Russia has responded the way it has?
_


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Just tell me why Russia should waive those charges?


Can you tell me why Russia agreed to discount the prices in the first place? They must have gotten something in return. A lease for a navy base, maybe?


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> Can you tell me why Russia agreed to discount the prices in the first place? They must have gotten something in return. A lease for a navy base, maybe?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Ukraine_gas_disputes


----------



## dogcom

gibor said:


> dogcom, thanks for the link:
> Exactly what I suspected, now it's comfirmed
> _So first US orchestrates the Kiev overthrow, and now the new "leaders" of Ukraine are allegedly found to have fired against their own people - the same provocation they subsequently used to run Yanukovich out of the country and install a pro-Western puppet government. Of course, said pro-Western coalition has not been discreditated (sic) because Ms. Ashton has sternly refused to investigate, knowing quite well how horribly this would reflect on the new Ukraine "leadership" - a government which shot its own people to fabricate the pretext under which it rose to power.
> 
> Is it any wonder then that Russia has responded the way it has?
> _


Your welcome it is really hard to be informed in the west.


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Exactly what I suspected, now it's comfirmed


Nothing is confirmed. The recorded phone conversations were leaked by Russian special services. It would be very easy for them to fabricate the "evidence".

KGB and CIA fabricated false stories all the time during the Cold War. I bet they are back to it now. Both sides.


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Ukraine_gas_disputes


Thank you.

So it's true, Russia discounted the price to get the navy lease extended.



> On 21 April 2010, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych signed an agreement in which Russia agreed to a 30 percent drop in the price of natural gas sold to Ukraine. *Russia agreed to this in exchange for permission to extend Russia's lease of a major naval base in the Ukrainian Black Sea port of Sevastopol for an additional 25 years with an additional five-year renewal option (to 2042-47)*. As of June 2010 Ukraine pays Gazprom around $234/mcm (thousand cubic meter).


I think this explains perfectly why Russia annexed Crimea. Now they have their navy base for free. The no longer need to discount the gas.


----------



## dogcom

GoldStone said:


> Nothing is confirmed. The recorded phone conversations were leaked by Russian special services. It would be very easy for them to fabricate the "evidence".
> 
> KGB and CIA fabricated false stories all the time during the Cold War. I bet they are back to it now. Both sides.


To me this means you can't trust the west or Russia so why defend the west only then.


----------



## thompsg4416

+1 dogcom. A spade is a space. Everyone is in it for thier own self interest. To think otherwise is to be a fool.


----------



## humble_pie

russia owes $24 billion to 4 top US banks, says it might default as retaliation for sanctions.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101474305

_" Obama ordered visa bans and asset freezes on Thursday against so far unidentified people deemed responsible for threatening Ukraine's sovereignty.

" Earlier in the week, a Kremlin aide said Moscow might refuse to pay off any loans to U.S. banks, the top four of which have around $24 billion in exposure to Russia."
_


----------



## uptoolate

24 billion? This is meant as a threat? Cost of doing business. You pays your money, you take your chances. I think andrewf had a post above about Russia's ability to intimidate the US in an economic pissing match. NG and oil in Europe is another matter but Russia's perennial need for hard currency may limit the ability that Russia has to turn these screws. In the Russian government's favour, is the seemingly inexhaustible ability of the common Russian people to endure severe hardship due to decades (centuries?) of bad governance. And of course, we can all be thankful of their endurance or we might be speaking German or worse - French! Gasp! :chuncky:


----------



## andrewf

^I know, eh? That's like a month of the Afghan war... US is quaking in its boots. Russia/US trade war = Russia loses.


----------



## GoldStone

NY Times:

Why Russia Can’t Afford Another Cold War

Good read.


----------



## gibor365

And because "Russia Can’t Afford Another Cold War" , US staged coup in Ukraine


----------



## GoldStone

Euromaidan rally in Kiev. Every single person was paid by US. (if you believe gibor)


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> Nothing is confirmed. The recorded phone conversations were leaked by Russian special services. It would be very easy for them to fabricate the "evidence".
> 
> KGB and CIA fabricated false stories all the time during the Cold War. I bet they are back to it now. Both sides.


Did you read anywhere that US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland, ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, 
EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet said that all stories are fabricated?


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> Euromaidan rally in Kiev. Every single person was paid by US. (if you believe gibor)


No need to pay everyone! They pay only to organizers!


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Did you read anywhere that US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland, ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt,
> EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet said that all stories are fabricated?


Were those stories published by BBC? New York Times? Washington Post? The Times? The Daily Telegraph? Any other mainstream, responsible media outlet that checks the facts before they publish a story?

Government officials are not supposed to comment on every insane, conspiracy theory story published on the second-tier web sites.


----------



## gibor365

Antimaidan.
Protesters in Kharkov and Donetsk stormed local government offices and removed Ukrainian flags, replacing them with the Russian tricolor on Saturday. And those are the biggest industrial cities in Ukraine (not in Crimea)


----------



## gibor365

Protesters raised Russian flags in major cities

http://rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/ukr10.jpg

http://rt.com/news/donetsk-kharkov-ukraine-protest-365/


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> Were those stories published by BBC? New York Times? Washington Post? The Times? The Daily Telegraph? .


 censorship


----------



## GoldStone

rt.com = Putin's propaganda. 100%


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> censorship


Are you saying that every respected newspaper in the US, UK, Germany, France is censored? But rt.com - created and funded by Putin - is not?

I'm out of this thread. You can have it to yourself.

:hopelessness:


----------



## andrewf

I kinda concluded that a while ago.


----------



## londoncalling

3 sides to every story. Yours mine and somewhere out there is reality. In the modern era it is all blurred by a mixture of sensationalism, mass media, alternative media, lobbying, manipulation and censorship. Some alternative news sites were covering the Ukrainian crises long before CNN et al. We have to remember 
media is a business including alternative media.


This is my truth. Tell me yours. :hopelessness:


----------



## humble_pie

londoncalling said:


> 3 sides to every story. Yours mine and somewhere out there is reality. In the modern era it is all blurred by a mixture of sensationalism, mass media, alternative media, lobbying, manipulation and censorship. Some alternative news sites were covering the Ukrainian crises long before CNN et al. We have to remember
> media is a business including alternative media.
> 
> This is my truth. Tell me yours. :hopelessness:



+ 1
so true

ukraine/crimea/russia is a huge & daunting story. Helpful to keep an open mind. Prejudiced parties who selfie prematurely that they & they only already have the single correct interpretation are far too early in the game imho.

what's cool about this thread is that it's contentious & lively & has everything from crypto-fascists to proto-commies ... but at the same time it's small & manageable. Big plus. Who doesn't turn glassy-eyed over 2,637 comments to a crimea article in the major media?

chances of finding somebody with something useful to say hidden among 2,637 mostly ignorant comments are ultra-low. 

par contre, here in cmf the crimea useful threads have already turned up - thanks to goldstone's digging - that russia has been paying for the lease of its naval base at the port of sevastopol by discounting export gas. I haven't seen that mentioned in major media.

that's one thread in the elaborate tapestry. It appears to me that the full embroidery is a thousand times more complicated, though. I continue to believe the west is working towards gaining a military foothold in ukraine. For that to happen, the country - or what will be left of the country if part breaks away to join russia - needs to join both the EU & NATO.

hypothetically speaking, i think a likely NATO objective is to ring russia on its western border. Not with the iron curtain of yesteryear, but with its contemporary version. A virtual, invisible, all-seeing, all-knowing computer-&-radar curtain. Complete with fighter aircraft if the west should believe that the worst has become necessary. No doubt coming soon: drone fighters.


----------



## thompsg4416

GoldStone said:


> Were those stories published by BBC? New York Times? Washington Post? The Times? The Daily Telegraph? Any other mainstream, responsible media outlet that checks the facts before they publish a story?
> 
> Government officials are not supposed to comment on every insane, conspiracy theory story published on the second-tier web sites.


I don't have the time or inclination to find the links to these stories for you. However they were in fact reported on by the BBC and globeandmail and I'm sure other large media outlets. The conversation between the Nyland( I forget her name) and the US ambassador to Ukraine was in fact big international news. I'm surprised you didn't see it on TV, let alone read about it. Its not everyday you hear such high level officials say "F the EU". Although US officials won't comment on it, they do not deny the people on the tape. My guess is because it happened before the Crimea incident you weren't paying attention. The last I read about the conversation between the EU minister and the Estonian Foreign minister has actually been refuted by the doctor whose comments they were discussing. That was a couple days ago - I haven't read the latest. There was an article in the globeandmail recently about this doctor. Interesting gal.. She was offered 2 posts in the current governement and won't join. She says they are just like the last one. Makes you wonder doesn't it? 

Regarding the protests - there is no doubt that they were encouraged by the west that said I don't think it took too much encouragement. The Ukraine is a crap hole(and will continue to be regardless of who's in power) and Yanakovich did nothing but make it worse. He was a thieving corrupt thug that played the EU and Russia off against one another - in the end he followed the money, he didn't really have a choice. This actually all started when his police beat up protesting students(most people forget this) and turned into something much bigger. Things like that don 't just happen - they need backing and they need support and they need lots of planning. Many of the opposition groups actually received some of thier funding from the west. That's not really a secret... People have a right to be upset - they deserve more from their government. 

This pissing match between you guys has gotten pretty childish.


----------



## humble_pie

thomps! u think londoncallingl & i are pissing? gosh we were hoping we were being open-minded.

as for US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland, americans can be so noticeably language-challenged.

nuland calls the UN secretary general Bankiemoon, pronouncing the name like a character in a children's fairy tale.

then, with flawless delicacy & diplomacy, she goes straight on to say Let's Glue This & Eff You See Kay the European Union. "This" being a secret deal to control who gets into the revolutionary government in kiev.


----------



## thompsg4416

lol no .. if anyone is pissing its me. Grumpy mood today.. hehe


----------



## humble_pie

_5 hours ago, sunday morning daylight savings time -_

tears flow. To weep for. A brave ukrainian spokesman leading a detachment of singing ukrainian soldiers strides unhesitatingly up to russian military guarding Belbek air base in the crimea, while they point their rifles & shout that they are going to shoot him in the legs.

the ukrainian soldier says he's unarmed. He asks for the russian commanding officer.

"we are two brother nations about to confront each other, it's wrong," he tells the russian soldiers.

the russians reply that they will have to shoot him. But they don't fire. They stare, gulp, swallow, frown, lower their guns, look baffled, anguished & conscience-stricken.

two brother nations. Tears flow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=had3lSJJFvI


----------



## gibor365

_It is not clear if Dr. Olga Bogomolets, who comes from a distinguished family of medical professionals that dates back to the 15th century, refused to accept a position in the “new government” because of what she had seen, however it is Ashton herself who recognized that it’s not possible to push aside her professional competence and actually stressed that she told Dr. Bogomolets that she should be part of the government possibly as Minister of Health. _
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bi...s-of-the-coup-detat-hired-the-snipers/5372048


----------



## andrewf

^Dat "journalism".


----------



## gibor365

_
Videos show members of the notorious US security firm, Blackwater, running through the streets in the Ukrainian city of Donetsk.

The videos uploaded on YouTube last week, show men dressed in US-style military outfit running through the streets of the Russian-speaking city with guns and bullet-proof body gears.

The videos also show the men being chased by the residents, with locals shouting at them and calling them “Blackwater.”

On March 5, an unnamed Russian diplomat in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, told Russia’s Interfax news agency that 300 employees of private security companies had arrived in Ukraine.


“These are soldiers of fortune proficient in combat operations. Most of them had operated under private contracts in Iraq, Afghanistan and other states,” he said.

The source, however, did not reveal nationalities of the “soldiers,” but said they are mostly from the United States.

Donetsk was the scene of unrest this week as pro-Russian residents seized control of the regional administration headquarters.

Blackwater was founded in 1997 in Moyock, North Carolina, by former Navy SEAL Erik Prince with the aim of conducting acts of espionage and military operations in crisis-hit regions across the world.

The company became notorious following a September 16, 2007, incident in which five of its guards protecting a US diplomatic convoy opened fire in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, killing 17 civilians.

The company had also faced allegations under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act regarding its conduct in Iraq and Sudan in relation to unlicensed training of foreign nationals and firearms violations.
_

[video]http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/03/09/353918/blackwater-members-in-ukraine/[/video]


----------



## andrewf

There's no such thing as Blackwater anymore...


----------



## gibor365

If they changed name to Academi, it doesn't mean they don't exist


----------



## humble_pie

gibor the thing is, the firm hasn't been called blackwater in 4 years.

http://www.economist.com/news/busin...its-most-controversial-firm-beyond-blackwater

there are several well-known firms providing mercenary soldiers ready to serve anywhere on the planet, says the Economist.

most serious journos are reporting that the occupying military in crimea are speaking russian.

some sources reported that busloads of russians were brought over the border into crimea for the pro-russian demonstrations in donetsk.

long & short is folks should keep that grain of salt top & centre.


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> some sources reported that busloads of russians were brought over the border into crimea for the pro-russian demonstrations in donetsk.
> 
> .


HP, with all respect, please check google map to see where is Crimea and where is Donetsk . It's like to say "busloads of canadians were brought over the border into Oregon for the pro-canadian demonstrations in Florida" .
"

_gibor the thing is, the firm hasn't been called blackwater in 4 years._
I wrote above that they just change name to Academi.... 
P.S. Madras is called Chennai for a much longer time, but I still call it Madras


----------



## gibor365

Just was reading ino.com ... and they had survey

Who do you think is the strongest leader?

Other - Leave a comment (6%, 18 Votes)

Xi Jinping, China, President (17%, 47 Votes)

Vladimir Putin, Russia, President (66%, 186 Votes)

Barack Obama, US, President (11%, 29 Votes)

what do you think?


----------



## andrewf

Nah, I'd vote for Stalin.


----------



## humble_pie

gibor it doesn't look as far as oregon-florida to me.

one could say that they ran. They are well-trained US mercenaries so they were able to run very fast, in formation, all the way from simferapol to donetsk.

the lucky ones got driven in trucks & tanks. Gibor u saw those pix of 60 giant armoured trucks with no license plates, driving in a convoy towards crimea? it's astonishing to think that a US mercenary operation with no name managed to fly in 60 gigantic armoured trucks, loaded with materiel, without anybody even knowing.

in any event the US mercenaries joined the pro-russian demonstrations in eastern ukraine cities, no wait, maybe they were the pro-russian demonstrations?

gibor besides running & demonstrating, what else do u think those US mercenaries are up to in crimea? would you say the place is crawling with em? are they waiting for a dogfight?

it's so handy how they can all speak fluent russian.


----------



## gibor365

HP, I still don't have enough information to comment....
The distance between major Crimea port Sevastopol to Donetzh is about 700 km (and this is not autobans )
Majority of former 14 CCCP republic people are fluent in Russian... I''m from Sibirea, my wife from Georgia (no - US state ) , we live in Canada 13+ years (citizens 10 year) and both of us speak fluent Russian and ... Hebrew


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Nah, I'd vote for Stalin.


So, you are in 6% "others" camp


----------



## gibor365

I liked Serbian comment "On March 4, the Foreign Ministry issued a statement that it was "following the events in Ukraine with special attention and concern, and we are giving full support to political efforts that aim to help overcome the current situation and set up the necessary stability." Prime Minister Ivica Dačić said on March 8 that the Crimean crisis is the proof of mistake that certain countries made by recognizing Kosovo independence, that both Ukraine and Russia are friends of Serbia and that it wants for the situation to stabilize and for a political solution to be found. He noted that Serbia will not comment more openly as it is not a world power, that no one even asked for Serbian position and that the situation does not depend on it"


----------



## gibor365

Kiev goverment closed Russian language versions of Ukrainian government websites..... I'd like to see Canada closing French version of government websites before QC referendum 

btw, "A referendum on whether Scotland should be an independent country will take place on Thursday 18 September 2014". Who is against it?


----------



## uptoolate

Many of the people that I know in Donetsk are very afraid. Mainly of Putin. When I first started visiting the city in 2004 the vast majority of the people I met were very optimistic that changes would bring increasing ties with Europe and increasing affluence. Now they are mainly living in fear that the corruption that has held them back will go on indefinitely. Others seem resigned to feelings that nothing will ever change. Most would leave for Western Europe if they could. Especially the young people that I know. Many have already gone.


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> I don't have the time or inclination to find the links to these stories for you. .


Estonian Foreign Ministry confirms authenticity of leaked phone call discussing how Kiev snipers who shot protesters were possibly hired by Ukraine's new leaders

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hired-Ukraines-new-leaders.html#ixzz2vVdv9JTz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## Nemo2

gibor said:


> Who do you think is the strongest leader?
> 
> 
> Barack Obama, US, President (11%, 29 Votes)
> 
> what do you think?


I think there are 29 voters who are out of their cotton pickin' minds.


----------



## gibor365

*Now we hear new calls for Ukraine and Georgia to be brought into NATO. Are these people sane? Five U.S. presidents who faced far more violent actions by a far more dangerous Soviet Union—Truman, Ike, JFK, Johnson, Reagan—refused even to threaten force against Russia for anything east of the Elbe river. These presidents ruled out force during the Berlin Blockade of 1948, the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, the building of the Berlin Wall in 1961, the Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, and the smashing of Solidarity in Poland in 1981. Yet, today, we are committed to go to war for Lithuania and Estonia, Obama is sending F-16s to Latvia where half a million Russians live, and the War Party wants Sixth Fleet warships moved into the Black Sea.*

http://www.theamericanconservative....a-cold-war-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-4579167


----------



## thompsg4416

So I read Obama has invited the new Ukrainian prime minister to Washington.

It's given according to many, Russia is the evil empire. I don't have a lot info to the contrary.... However - For those trumpeting the west and our love of democracy how democratic is this? The new prime minister who will be travelling to Washington got less then 7 percent of the popular vote during the last election - not to mention how he came to power.

Can you say hypocritical? Say it loud and repeat it... Then next time any of you think about pretending the west is in this for anything other then self interest it make you think twice. 

The first round ballot was held on January 17 and was internationally widely recognized as meeting democratic standards.
As no single candidate had received 50% or more votes in the first round ballot the two highest polling candidates, Viktor Yanukovych (35.32%) and Yulia Tymoshenko (25.05%) progressed to the second final run-off ballot which was held on February 7, 2010.
Ukraine's incumbent president, Viktor Yushchenko, with 5.45% support, came in fifth place behind Serhiy Tihipko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk who had each respectively received 13.05% and 6.69% of the vote.
Peter Simonenko, Volodymyr Lytvyn, Oleh Tyahnybok and Anatoliy Hrytsenko all scored between 4 and 1% of the votes. The remaining nine candidates for the presidency gained less than 1% of the votes.[144]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010


----------



## Nemo2

Seemed like as good a place as any to post this:


----------



## andrewf

...?


----------



## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> ...?


If push comes to shove.....on whom would you bet the farm?


----------



## andrewf

The image wasn't loading before.

Hey, if you are into homerotica, I'm sure the Putin barechested on a horse really turns your crank.

For the record though, Putin is kinda fat (or at least rocking some man-boobs), compared to Obama:










Honestly though, this kind of thing (carefully selected propaganda photos) only works on weak-minded. Take as much offense as you like.


----------



## uptoolate

Nemo2 said:


> If push comes to shove.....on whom would you bet the farm?


You're kidding.... right?!


----------



## Homerhomer

this is funny



Nemo2 said:


> Seemed like as good a place as any to post this:


----------



## mrPPincer

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=511_1394269213


----------



## Nemo2

uptoolate said:


> You're kidding.... right?!


Not at all.


----------



## MRT

Nemo2 said:


> If push comes to shove.....on whom would you bet the farm?


haha, may as well inject some humour into this increasingly pointless thread 

I would bet the farm on Putin, being that he was KGB, holds a Russian 'master of sport' in both judo and *****. He is a big ***** fan and there are countless pics of him with Fedor Emilianenko (non-MMA fans can google this legend). Obama would be done in a matter of seconds


----------



## Nemo2

MRT said:


> Obama would be done in a matter of seconds


And Putin wouldn't be the first smaller ruthless guy to back down a larger and better armed windbag.


----------



## andrewf

I really don't get why you're cheering on Russia. I also had no idea we had so many pro-authoritarians on the board. It boggles the mind that they admire Russia, yet suffer in the relative freedom and affluence of the west.


----------



## dogcom

Andrewf there is no side here to cheer for as I see it. Russia can't be admired but neither can the west who go around the world the Ukraine included and disrupt things for power and greed. Russia is faced with crazy nazi's and such that the west stuck in their face and in their backyard. Putin will respond very badly from this as we know and in the end this is very dangerous for the entire world, so no win here.

I also just saw this article.

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldn...ft_Its_Entire_Gold_Hoard_To_The_U.S._Fed.html


----------



## sags

I agree with Dogcom.

Don't start something you can't finish.

Russia will react to having the west on it's doorstep, wooing away their neighbours.........the same way the US would react if a Canadian government suddenly started courting communism.

I don't imagine for a second, the US would tolerate Chinese or Russian fighter aircraft located in Canada.

The US has had a longstanding history of broken promises of support to "freedom fighters" that never materialized. 

It has encouraged people to fight regimes and welcome western style democracy..........and people have paid the human cost of believing their rhetoric, when the regimes violently crushed the opposition.

Go back to several past wars..........Vietnam and Afghanistan..........and all those faithful local people who worked with the US and were "left behind" to fend for themselves, when the US decided to leave.

Putin isn't intimidated and won't be shoved around. The US should stay out of the conflict.


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> . Russia is faced with crazy nazi's


----------



## gibor365

Who started it?!
_The Assembly of Kosovo, under temporary administration of the United Nations (UNMIK) since 1999, unilaterally declared independence as the "Republic of Kosovo" on 17 February 2008.[46] The Republic of Kosovo was instantly recognised by the United States and the EU-3 and now has been recognised by 108 United Nations member states.[47]

In an emergency session of the UN Security Council, Serbian President Boris Tadić asked the Council, "Are we all aware of the precedent that is being set and are we aware of the catastrophic consequences that it may lead to?" The permanent representatives of the United States, United Kingdom and France presented their opinion that the Kosovo case is sui generis in nature and could not be perceived as a precedent.[48]

The setting of a precedent was mentioned by many countries, including Argentina,[49] the People's Republic of China, Cuba,[50] Greece and Spain. India stated that Kosovo "can set a very dangerous precedent for similar cases around the world."[51] The then Russian President Vladimir Putin described the recognition by Western powers of Kosovan independence as a "terrible precedent, which will de facto blow apart the whole system of international relations, developed not over decades, but over centuries."[52] He then went on to say, "they have not thought through the results of what they are doing. At the end of the day it is a two-ended stick and the second end will come back and hit them in the face."[52]

_


----------



## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> I really don't get why you're cheering on Russia.


Observing the characteristics of those 'leading' at least two of the world's major players, and recognizing/envisioning their divergent reactions, does not (necessarily) constitute 'support'.


----------



## humble_pie

far from this being a "pointless thread" as some have posted, the ukraine crisis is probably the single most important pressure affecting everyone's lifetime savings & investments right now.

underlying ukraine/crimea is the question of whether the US & russia are pushing themselves into another cold war.

cyber warfare has already begun. It's thought that russia has already infected critical ukrainian communication networks with malware in a campaign to disable ukrainian politicians' phones & email.

"cyber is the next gunpowder in warfare," sums up a current headline.

http://www.bullfax.com/?q=node-expert-ukraine-russia-cyberwar-more-serious-and-damagin

is anyone still missing the point? western stock exchanges could be likely targets in protracted digital warfare. Not that ukraine/crimea is anywhere near a world war; but the next wars probably won't be so much ground combat operations, they're more likely to be financial plunderings, drone attacks & cyber denials-of-service.

i'm still sticking to my knitting, which is that a principal driver in the crimea story is US & western resolve to pull ukraine into NATO.


----------



## andrewf

Nemo2 said:


> Observing the characteristics of those 'leading' at least two of the world's major players, and recognizing/envisioning their divergent reactions, does not (necessarily) constitute 'support'.


That's a roundabout way of not-denying that you support Russia and Putin.


----------



## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> That's a roundabout way of not-denying that you support Russia and Putin.


Not at all........it's noting that the current US president, Secretary of State and associated lackeys possess a highly inflated surplus of bloviation but are deficient in the area of vertebral columns.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> That's a roundabout way of not-denying that you support Russia and Putin.


This is not a hockey game, where I support Leafs in all their games.... but it this specific Crimea "game" , imho, Putin behaves correctly.... he just cannot surrender by pressure US and NATO, stand on his knees and betray his people..

P.S. and beleive me andrew, I have much more reasons than you, to hate GPU/NKVD/KGB/ФСБ ... Communist party


----------



## gibor365

Don't understand why Globe and Mail publishing BS from "Kyiv Post" ?!
_The language of the new Crimea Referendum makes Quebec’s referendums appear to be models of clarity. According to the Kyiv Post, voters in Crimea next Sunday will be asked whether they support the union of Crimea with Russia (an act of irredentism) or whether Crimea should be independent (secession). There is no alternative – one cannot vote for the status quo ante of remaining within Ukraine._
Questions will be in Russian, Ukranian and Tatars, I just read again question in Russian and all clear, 1st join Russia, 2nd stay with Ukraine.
Wondering if Globe and Mail published articles according to Serbian newspapers when US and EU decided to make "Kosovo" independent country?!


----------



## andrewf

gibor, there second question sounds like "status quo" unless you know what the 1992 constitution is. Why can Crimea roll back Ukraine's constitution unilaterally?


----------



## gibor365

If you know, Crimea wanted to have only 1 question with answers Yes or No... Than Kiev stated to yell about human rights and so on . and Crimea changed to 2 question:
2nd question: "«Вы за восстановление действия Конституции Республики Крым 1992 года и за статус Крыма как части Украины?» (согласно Конституции Крыма 1992 года, республика входит в состав Украины и определяет с ней отношения на основе договора и соглашений)" = from google translator ""Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and for the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?" (According to the Constitution of Crimea in 1992, is part of the Republic of Ukraine and defines a relationship with her based on the contract and agreements) " .
I just don't understand what is not clear


----------



## gibor365

Interestin number in surveys 

"Согласно опросам, проведённым в мае 2013 года от имени International Republican Institute (IRI), за присоединение полуострова в состав России выступало 23-33 % жителей Крыма, тогда как 49-53 % выступали за сохранение статуса автономии в составе Украины.
По данным исследования Киевского международного института социологии проводившегося с 8 по 18 февраля 2014 года 41 % жителей Крыма высказался за присоединение к России, при этом 1,5 года назад эту перспективу поддержали 38 %.
Согласно опросу, проведённому 8-10 марта 2014 года Крымским республиканским институтом политических и социологических исследований по заказу портала «Общекрымский референдум», 77 % жителей Крыма планируют проголосовать на референдуме за вхождение Крыма в состав России, 8 % — за восстановление конституции Крыма 1992 года. В Севастополе за вхождение в состав России выступают 85 % опрошенных." 


*:According to surveys conducted in May 2013 on behalf of the International Republican Institute (IRI), for joining the peninsula to Russia acted 23-33 % of the Crimean population , whereas 49-53 % were in favor of maintaining the status of autonomy within Ukraine.
According to a study of the Kiev International Institute of Sociology held from 8 to 18 February 2014 41% of Crimean residents spoke in favor of annexation to Russia , with 1.5 years ago this perspective supported 38% .
According to a survey conducted 8-10 March 2014 Crimean Institute of Political and Social Studies commissioned by the portal " Obschekrymsky referendum" , 77% of the Crimean population plan to vote in the referendum for joining the Crimea to Russia , 8 % - for the restoration of the Constitution of Crimea in 1992 . In Sevastopol for joining Russia perform 85 % of the respondents"*


----------



## mrPPincer

another Caspian report, this one on Tymoshenko,
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=160_1394526064

& a link to CaspianReport's LiveLeak page for anyone interested, I find his reports interesting & informative, there's more here;
http://www.liveleak.com/c/CaspianReport


----------



## Nemo2

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437630685108064?mg=reno64-wsj

Peggy Noonan, WSJ



> Mr. Putin moved on Ukraine when Barack Obama was no longer a charismatic character but a known quantity with low polls, failing support, a weak economy. He'd taken Mr. Obama's measure during the Syria crisis and surely judged him not a shrewd international chess player but a secretly anxious professor who makes himself feel safe with the sound of his voice.
> 
> Mr. Putin didn't go into Ukraine because of Mr. Obama. He just factored him in.





> First, we tend to think the Big Lie in foreign policy as antique, pre-Internet, as dead as Goebbels. It is not. For days Mr. Putin insisted he went into Ukraine to protect innocent people from marauding fascists. To some degree it worked, including among a few foreign-policy professionals. Big lies can confuse the situation, fool the gullible, and buy time. Expect more of them.
> 
> Second, after the invasion Mr. Putin murked up the situation and again bought some time—and some tentativeness among his foes—by contributing to the idea that he was perhaps crazy—"in another world," as Angela Merkel is reported to have told Mr. Obama. (Imagine the White House relief: It's not our fault, you can't anticipate a madman! I guess that's why it leaked.) Mr. Putin helped spread the idea in his March 4 postinvasion news conference in Moscow. From the grimly hilarious account of The New Republic's Julia Ioffe: "He was a rainbow of emotion: Serious! angry! bemused! flustered! confused! So confused. Victor Yanukovich is still acting president of Ukraine, but he can't talk to Ukraine because Ukraine has no president." It was apparently quite a performance.
> 
> But Mr. Putin isn't crazy. Nor was Krushchev when some of his communications were wild enough during the Cuban Missile Crisis that the Kennedy White House wondered if he was drunk or undergoing a coup. "We will bury you!" No, we will unsettle you. Mr. Putin may be psychologically interesting, but he's not mad. Allowing the idea to circulate added to the confusion, bought time and kept people wondering. Expect more of this from Mr. Putin.





> Not being George W. Bush is not a foreign policy. Not invading countries is not a foreign policy. Wishing to demonstrate your sophistication by announcing you are unencumbered by the false historical narratives of the past is not a foreign policy. Assuming the world will be nice if we're not militarist is not a foreign policy.
> 
> What is our foreign policy? Disliking global warming?


----------



## gibor365

I liked post below 
_Merkel speaks Russian fluently and knows what’s going on in Ukraine so I think it is safe to say that she recognizes a train wreck when she sees one. Also, Germany sanctioning Russia is like me sanctioning my bank by freezing all my withdrawals. 
Moreover, Germany’s former chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, who is on the board of the Russian energy giant Gazprom and Putin’s personal friend, is out there backing the Kremlin on Ukraine so that’s not helping Merkel’s headaches at the moment either. 
I sure don’t envy here job right now. This also might be the time when she has to make some decisions and take sides. I don’t know how longer she can stay in the “middle” of Victoria Nuland's ****storm_


----------



## gibor365

German opposition leader Gregor Gysi is right:

_The recognition of Kosovo independence set a precedent that gives Crimeans, as well as Basques and Catalans, a right for self-determination, German opposition leader said, lashing out against Angela Merkel’s support of sanctions against Russia.
Gregor Gysi, a parliamentary head of the largest lower-house opposition party in Germany – the Left Party – has spoken out on Thursday against German Chancellor’s unquestioning support of the coup-appointed Ukrainian government.
“They formed a new government..... Immediately recognized by president Obama by the EU and German government as well. Miss Merkel! The vice- prime minister, the defense minister, minister of agriculture, environment minister, the attorney general.. They are fascists!” he stated.
Gysi was furious that Germany is doing nothing to address the extreme right threat in Ukraine.
*"With fascists in Ukraine we are doing nothing. Svoboda party has tight contacts with NPD and other Nazi parties in Europe.. The leader of this party, Oleg Tyagnibok, has recalled that literally.”
The Left’s leader went on to read a quote from Tyagnibok, where he publically urged people in Ukraine to “Grab the guns, fight the Russian pigs, the Germans, the Jews pigs and others.”
“And with these Svoboda people we are still in conversation! I find it as a scandal!” Gysi told his fellow politicians. *
Gysi said that NATO opened Pandora’s Box by recognising the unilaterally proclaimed independence of Kosovo and that Crimea’s secession from Ukraine applies the same pattern of international law.
“With Kosovo, they opened Pandora's box. What's allowed for Kosovo, you should also allow for others. I told you this but you haven't listened to me. Winning the Cold War has eclipsed everything for you, you forgot about everything else,” Gysi said.
“The Basques are asking why can't they make their choice, whether they want to stay within Spain or not? Catalonians are asking, why can't they decide whether they want to belong to Spain or not. Of course people living in Crimea are asking the same thing.”
“I think that Crimea breaking away from Ukraine is just the same as Kosovo. I knew Putin would use this argument, and he did,” the politician said. “It must be found, such status for the Crimea, which will be acceptable for Ukraine, Russia, and us.”Gregor Gysi (Reuters/Thomas Peter)
Gysi also commented on NATO’s expansion to the east and called on the German government and the West to acknowledge the “legitimate security interests of Russia.”
“When we restored Germany's unity, the US, German and other foreign ministers proclaimed there will be no NATO expansion to the east. But this promise has been broken. There was an expansion of NATO in Russia's direction,” said Gregor Gysi in an outburst directed at Merkel.
“Security in Europe, there are neither without nor against Russia, but with Russia. When the crisis is over one day, an advantage could be that international law is finally respected again from all sides,” Gysi concluded.
Right before Gysi’s emphatic statement Chancellor Angela Merkel addressed German MPs, expressing her support of imposing sanctions and warning Russia that it risks “massive political and economic consequences” if it sticks to its position on Ukraine.
Later in the day, US Secretary of State John Kerry echoed Merkel’s statement, saying that Monday will be the day when Europe will take “a very serious series of steps” if Russia refuses to enter "negotiations that achieve results."
Russia has repeatedly said it considers the actions of Crimean authorities reasonable and legal, and will respect the results of the referendum.

_


----------



## Nemo2

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/03/14/Vladimir-Putin-Hero-of-the-European-Union



> Until Russia began rattling its sabre, the EU's economy was locked in a downward death spiral. There are lots of reasons for this (excessive regulation; the difficulties of having northern and southern European economies operating at very different speeds; incompetence, waste and an ageing demographic...), but if you had to pick the one factor that was dooming it above all, I'd say it was environmental regulation. Specifically, the EU's ongoing war on fossil fuels and its championing of expensive, inefficient, "renewable" energy have virtually destroyed the economies of Spain and Portugal, given Denmark the world's most expensive electricity, and hamstrung even the industrial might of Germany.
> But it's amazing what the threat of war – or, best case scenario, of being held hostage by Russian oil and gas producers – can do to concentrate the mind.
> Consider the tough new environmental laws passed by the EU parliament in Strasbourg this week. The significant part is – much to the irritation of the green activists who infest the EU – the new regulations specifically excluded shale gas.
> For the EU this will be, if not necessarily a life-saver, at least a pretty significant dose of economic Viagra. We've seen, already, how the shale revolution has benefited the US, where the gas price is roughly a third of what it is in Europe. What has been sorely lacking, until now, is the political will within EU's member states to exploit their shale gas reserves. In France (because it can: it's got nuclear) fracking is banned, as it is in Bulgaria. And even those countries which are more or less pro shale gas - eg Britain and Poland - have been pitifully slow to get fracking.
> But just look at what a difference Putin has made.
> On Tuesday, the Polish government announced that its home grown fracking industry would be tax-free through to 2020.
> 
> Günther Oettinger, EU energy commissioner, has called for the building of more terminals for liquified natural gas and for EU members to begin drilling for shale gas.
> 
> Markus Beyrer, the secretary general of Business Europe, the EU employers' association, has called on EU leaders to be "less emotional" (i.e. less vulnerable to eco-hysteria) in their approach to fracking.


Time to buy Precision Drilling?


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Also, Germany sanctioning Russia is like me sanctioning my bank by freezing all my withdrawals.


This is kind of nonsense. Russia needs foreign exchange to support the crumbling ruble. Russia needs Germany to buy its gas.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> This is kind of nonsense. Russia needs foreign exchange to support the crumbling ruble. Russia needs Germany to buy its gas.


 OK. But bank also need me to deposit my $$$ there 
btw, "crumbling ruble" ?! Now FX rate 1 USD = 36 RUB , I'm not following those rate, but couple of years ago the rate was 1USD = 32RUB ...so ruble fall about 12% , the same time CAN$ fell much much more....


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> This is kind of nonsense. Russia needs foreign exchange to support the crumbling ruble. Russia needs Germany to buy its gas.


 OK. But bank also need me to deposit my $$$ there 
btw, "crumbling ruble" ?! Now FX rate 1 USD = 36 RUB , I'm not following those rate, but couple of years ago the rate was 1USD = 32RUB ...so ruble fall about 12% , the same time CAN$ fell much much more....


----------



## andrewf

Germany stops buying gas, Russia stops getting forex, pensioners stop getting their cheques from Uncle Vlad. To say it aint no thang if Russia stops selling gas to Germany is pure BS.


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Germany stops buying gas, Russia stops getting forex, pensioners stop getting their cheques from Uncle Vlad. To say it aint no thang if Russia stops selling gas to Germany is pure BS.


OK, so both sides are interested in trade


----------



## humble_pie

they say that the vast east-west swath stretching from south-west asia through the middle east & the black sea to the balkan states & onwards into europe & north america is one gigantic transport network ferrying drugs, illegal arms, stolen uranium, prostitution, stolen cars & organized crime.

hmmmn if one looks at the map the Black Sea is smack dab in the middle. Perhaps this is part & parcel of why they all want it so bad.


----------



## gibor365

Survey on US/Canadian forum tellwut.com shows that majority 40% vs 7% think that Crimea should decide on their own.
US and EU opposed to referendum and telling it's illegal?! . DO you think Crimea people have a right to decide by themselves?
Yes, Crimea people should decide by themselves their destiny | 39.74% | 498 votes 
No, Crimea people should listen to US and EU and cannot decide their destiny | 6.78% | 85 votes 
Undecided | 20.19% | 253 votes 
N/A | 33.28% | 417 votes


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## mrPPincer

But gibor, the vote was rigged was it not?

It was either yes or yes, there was no choice of staying with the status quo..
staying with Ukraine as they were,

Not saying that if it was on the ballot it would win, but it was not there..

If Crimea should decide by themselves, the questions should be fair and balanced, right?


----------



## gibor365

Question 2, is to stay in Ukraine


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Survey on US/Canadian forum tellwut.com shows that majority 40% vs 7% think that Crimea should decide on their own.
> US and EU opposed to referendum and telling it's illegal?! . DO you think Crimea people have a right to decide by themselves?
> Yes, Crimea people should decide by themselves their destiny | 39.74% | 498 votes
> No, Crimea people should listen to US and EU and cannot decide their destiny | 6.78% | 85 votes
> Undecided | 20.19% | 253 votes
> N/A | 33.28% | 417 votes


Is this the same pro Russia propaganda organization you are a member of?


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Question 2, is to stay in Ukraine


Crimea should decide for themselves, the false flag Russian troops stationed there are just to make sure they make the right choice in the quickly referendum.


----------



## humble_pie

there's plenty of propaganda on both sides.

i don't think gibor is propaganda, rather i think here's a rough-&-tumble kind of ex-soldier each: who grew up in the soviet union, speaks russian, served in the army, remembers it well, maybe a bit stubborn, now he's here in canada, has taken it upon himself to make sure that both sides of the argument get an airing.

so i for one am glad to hear from gibor. It's not every chat thread on the crimea crisis that has a native russian speaker on board!

as for propaganda coming from the west, how come so many persons - from prime ministers & presidents to politicians to posters here in cmf forum - are preaching & proselytizing & pointing their forefingers & shouting that the crimea referendum is illegal?

what business is it of theirs? how would they know anyhow? how come these folks are suddenly experts in the 1992 constitution? did they read the document in its entirety, in cyrillic alphabet?

for everybody in the west to be so excited, there has to be some kind of powerful but deep underlying agenda. An agenda so compelling that all 28 NATO ambassadors keep on holding emergency crimea sessions in brussels. So compelling that NATO is flying extra radar intelligence missions all over eastern europe, has scrambled up extra combat aircraft on the belarus border. So compelling that russia has already brought down a US spy drone flying over crimea.

only angela merkel sounds calm enough while she talks about sanctions if germany doesn't get her gas. But some in western europe plus all of north america often sound like their screws are coming loose over sevastopol.

what's going on? why does the west want the ukraine so bad??


----------



## gibor365

HP. you are asking good questions! ... but I think that you know answers 

P.S. I've read many articles about topic on western websites, bbc, cbc, globe and mail and others ...I also like reading comments below....I was very surprised that so many people doesn't beleive pro-western propoganda any more The Internet changed the world!

Regrding Merkel...it's understandable: Russian gas, head of opposition and former counselor Shreder support Russian...


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Crimea should decide for themselves, the false flag Russian troops stationed there are just to make sure they make the right choice in the quickly referendum.


tellwut.com is canadian-US survey forum and Russian cannot even register there

latest numbers:
3. US and EU opposed to referendum and telling it's illegal?! . DO you think Crimea people have a right to decide by themselves?
Yes, Crimea people should decide by themselves their destiny | 39.82% | 864 votes
No, Crimea people should listen to US and EU and cannot decide their destiny | 7.10% | 154 votes
Undecided | 20.88% | 453 votes
N/A | 32.21% | 699 votes


----------



## Longwinston

gibor said:


> HP. you are asking good questions! ... but I think that you know answers
> 
> P.S. I've read many articles about topic on western websites, bbc, cbc, globe and mail and others ...I also like reading comments below....I was very surprised that so many people doesn't beleive pro-western propoganda any more The Internet changed the world!
> 
> Regrding Merkel...it's understandable: Russian gas, head of opposition and former counselor Shreder support Russian...


Pretty sad Gibor. Putin is shutting down all opposition voices in Russia. You are here spouting off about the west and there is a severe crackdown in Russia. You should count your blessings that you are here, not there.
You spout about propaganda yet you are the victim of it as is apparent from your postings here.


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## mrPPincer

I agree with h_p, it's good to have gibor's voice here, it's obvious to me our western media is heavily slanted and it is good to look at things from more than one angle when possible, I was also happy to discover that CaspianReport for the same reason.


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## andrewf

A) There are pro-Russian people in the west. You're one of them, gibor.

B) Web polls mean exactly nothing. They don't even necessarily reflect the opinions of the people who frequent a particular website and are frequently manipulated for mischief, propaganda, etc.


----------



## gibor365

Longwinston said:


> Pretty sad Gibor. Putin is shutting down all opposition voices in Russia. You are here spouting off about the west and there is a severe crackdown in Russia. You should count your blessings that you are here, not there.
> You spout about propaganda yet you are the victim of it as is apparent from your postings here.


Where did you find out about "Putin is shutting down all opposition voices in Russia"?! In New Youk Times or translations from Kiev Post?! Whom he shut down? ***** Riots?! And for what kind of propoganda I'm victim,?! More than half of my family live in Russia, as well as many guys with whom I studied in school and university.... With many I'm linked by analog of facebook (it's called odnoklassniki.ru)... They don't feel any dictatorship or their freedom reduced...
And if even Putin was shutting down opposition, there is nothing to do with Crimea people who wants referendum... and it's not US and NATO business....


----------



## uptoolate

Pro-Russian? Pro-Ukrainian? Pro-Crimean? How 'bout Pro-Freedom? Pro-Due Process? Pro-Rule of Law? We take them for granted, I'm pretty sure that the average person in countries of the former Soviet Union still dream of the day when they will have them.


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## gibor365

Oh yeah  and Patriot Act, FATCA, SOPA and similar law - are apogee of freedom


----------



## uptoolate

Gibor you may be confused as to where I stand. I have no great love of America in her current incarnation but the institutions and principles on which civil society are based should be highly held by each of us lest we lose them. Secure property rights - physical, intellectual and of person; skepticism and the scientific method; and capital markets among them. There are no easy answers to many, many questions. I am only guided by what I think we all hope for the future. At some point hopefully those in power will act in a way to bring about what the average person wants - a better life and a hope that their children will have a better life.


----------



## humble_pie

gibor i don't have any answers at all, that's for sure! 

i do *not* understand yet what the stakes are over crimea & all the mysterious NATO/russia/balkans clashes that it represents. All i can see is that it's a flashpoint, a code name for something else that's going on.

the stakes for this mysterious scenario appear to be extremely high. The one solid clue in this thread appears farther back, when goldstone turned up the fact that russia has been paying for her lease of the naval base at sevastopol with discounted gas export prices.

still, that doesn't explain why *now* is the time that russia would make a move to grab her naval base for free. After all these years. So something bigger has to be going on ...

as for the other side, the west, all i can do is observe the ever-growing ring of NATO bases encircling russia. Apparently NATO is negotiating right now to include japan. They already have mongolia. One might stop to ask what is Mongolia doing as a member of a military org named the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which started out in life as washington & london plus a small handful of western europe?

idk, maybe NATO wants to replace the ever-more-dysfunctional United Nations?

remember, we as citizens don't vote for NATO, it's our defence departments that decide everything. Maybe global rule by armed forces is better than talky-talky at the UN security council in new york city?

NATO may want to include ukraine. It would give them another AFB right on russia's borders. Donetsk, maybe ...

still, this doesn't explain why *now* is the time for such a NATO move. If the US had really known about the massive russian military deployment that's now occupying crimea, surely the US would have boycotted the olympics in russia last month? surely other western nations, perhaps even canada, would also have refused to compete at Sochi?

the stealth invasion of crimea appears to have come out of the blue for washington, possibly even for NATO commanders in belgium.

so i'm back to the beginning. I'm stumped. What is really going on over there ...


----------



## Longwinston

gibor said:


> Where did you find out about "Putin is shutting down all opposition voices in Russia"?! In New Youk Times or translations from Kiev Post?! Whom he shut down? ***** Riots?! And for what kind of propoganda I'm victim,?! More than half of my family live in Russia, as well as many guys with whom I studied in school and university.... With many I'm linked by analog of facebook (it's called odnoklassniki.ru)... They don't feel any dictatorship or their freedom reduced...
> And if even Putin was shutting down opposition, there is nothing to do with Crimea people who wants referendum... and it's not US and NATO business....


So you don't agree that Russia is shutting down opposition media Gibor?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/13/us-russia-internet-idUSBREA2C21L20140313

This is simply 'western propaganda'?
I always enjoy an opposing point of view but it needs to be grounded in reality, yours is not. Are you aware of the 50,000 people demonstrating in Moscow against Russian aggression?

What's particularly troubling is that you say you lived in CCCP but are still unable to recognize propaganda when you see it.


----------



## Longwinston

Mongolia is not a member of NATO. lol


----------



## humble_pie

oh stop with the silly lols. 

there are mongolian air force officers right now at the principal NATO AFB in western europe. They have been there for several years. The mongolians are being trained by advanced military intelligence operators, aka combat engineers, including trainers from canada's armed forces.


----------



## thompsg4416

uptoolate said:


> Pro-Russian? Pro-Ukrainian? Pro-Crimean? How 'bout Pro-Freedom? Pro-Due Process? Pro-Rule of Law? We take them for granted, I'm pretty sure that the average person in countries of the former Soviet Union still dream of the day when they will have them.


Pro-rule of law, pro-due process yada yada. Yes we(in the west) have it but our governments could care less if people in other countries do. Isn't it slightly hypocritical that the west is throwing their full support behind a Ukrainian leader who got 7% of the popular vote in the last election? An election even west called a fair and free. Forget that the previous corrupt leader was actually duly elected and unlawfully removed from government - you mentioned rule of law and due process? Let's apply it fairly across the board then. But what's the point when it doesn't serve our purpose?

Get off your holier than tho soap box and stop preaching about freedom and due process - we support his government not because of freedom but because we have interests there. 

Russia is wrong to be where they are but nothing annoys me more then listening to people go off about freedom rule of law and whatever other talking points they are fed. Is it because they are really that naive or because they really believe that's why we r there? Either way it's wrong - dead wrong.


----------



## Nemo2

thompsg4416 said:


> ....because we have interests there.


The world's history in a nutshell.


----------



## Longwinston

humble_pie said:


> oh stop with the silly lols.
> 
> there are mongolian air force officers right now at the principal NATO AFB in western europe. They have been there for several years. The mongolians are being trained by advanced military intelligence operators, aka combat engineers, including trainers from canada's armed forces.


And I will repeat, Mongolia is not a member of NATO.


----------



## humble_pie

Longwinston said:


> And I will repeat ...


nobody cares whether the mongols are members or member-affiliates. My point about the global make-up of NATO armed forces is valid.


----------



## humble_pie

thompsg4416 said:


> we support his [ukraine protest] government not because of freedom but because we have interests there.





Nemo2 said:


> The world's history in a nutshell.



thomps & nemo might you be able to be more precise. What kind of interests do we see in the ukraine? what kind of nutshell?

all i can see so far is that the west may be favouring NATO - has in fact been favouring NATO for some time - because of an understanding among western democratic leaders that the UN with its one-nation-one-vote policy is not doing a good enough job of stopping the growth of radical terrorism.

it seems to me our elected leaders might be whispering to each other something that goes like this: OK we'll leave the UN to babble on ... all those tiny republics nobody's ever heard of ... some are leaning so frighteningly towards radical religious terrorism ... we in the west are going to revert to the rule of armed force ... where for sure we have the upper hand ...

who stamped out Somali pirates off the shores of east africa? not captain Philips, it was NATO helped to end Somali pirates in the indian ocean.

who's going to find flight MH370? few have the military intelligence. The US has this intelligence. NATO has this intelligence.

if something along these lines is going on, then NATO wants ukraine. They want japan, too.


----------



## Nemo2

'Umble: Throughout history nations/tribes have acted in their own self interest - sure, they might, for the ease of public/foreign consumption, dress up certain actions as altruism, but their interests are paramount.

You mention Somali piracy......it is/was in the interest of mercantile countries to ensure the free movement of shipping; likewise it's in the interest of most countries to (attempt to) maintain stability throughout the world.......others might determine, (correctly or incorrectly given the circumstances of the moment), that it might be in their present or future interests to foment instability......but the meme is unremitting.


----------



## humble_pie

that's all you've got?

a bunch of ramblin high-falutin abstractions?
nothing specific?

like. what. exactly. are. the. interests. that. you. say. you. are. seeing. at. play. in. the. ukraine. nutshell.


----------



## gibor365

HP, and why US military trained Georgia troops?! Why Geogian army was on US payroll?! US/NATO just wanted to surround Russia...the same happens in Ukraine. US doesn't want strong Russia , they want to be the only bully of the world ...
Do you remember reason of US invasion of Grenada? They only suspect that Cuba (not even CCCP) can have influence there.


----------



## gibor365

Looks like Markel is the only Western leader who is trying to do something positive: _German government announced Chancellor Angela Merkel proposed to Putin that an international observer mission in Ukraine be expanded quickly as tensions rise in the country's east.​

Merkel spokesman Steffen Seibert said Merkel proposed quickly expanding the 57-nation Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe's (OSCE) presence in Ukraine, and urged a decision at an OSCE meeting Monday on sending more observers to tense areas particularly in eastern Ukraine. He says Putin "evaluated this initiative positively."
_


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> that's all you've got?
> 
> a bunch of ramblin high-falutin abstractions?
> nothing specific?
> 
> like. what. exactly. are. the. interests. that. you. say. you. are. seeing. at. play. in. the. ukraine. nutshell.


Did I say that I saw them at play? No. I was merely responding to thompsg4416's comment about 'interests', and observing that said 'interests', in whatever shape or form, (known or unknown to the casual observer), have always been the motivator. Period. (Or, to follow your example, period. period. period. period. period. ad nauseum.)


----------



## humble_pie

one could say that every great nation becomes a bully


----------



## humble_pie

Nemo2 said:


> Did I say that I saw them at play? No. I was merely responding to thompsg4416's comment about 'interests', and observing that said 'interests', in whatever shape or form, (known or unknown to the casual observer), have always been the motivator. Period. (Or, to follow your example, period. period. period. period. period. ad nauseum.)



we should conclude, then, that you see nothing specific at play after all?


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> we should conclude, then, that you see nothing specific at play after all?


I believe I, quite some time back, mentioned the importance of Sevastopol to Russia, (and also the apparent similarity between the ethnic makeups of Crimea and Sudetenland as justification for intrusion).........and I'd wager that Putin is not undertaking this action because there's nothing interesting on TV.


----------



## andrewf

We don't want the US to be the only bully. We want Russia (and China) to be bullies, too!

I can't believe you people.


----------



## uptoolate

And don't forget Liechtenstein! I'd really like to see them start to throw their weight around!


----------



## Nemo2

uptoolate said:


> And don't forget Liechtenstein! I'd really like to see them start to throw their weight around!


And don't mess with the Andorrans!


----------



## humble_pie

Nemo2 said:


> I believe I, quite some time back, mentioned the importance of Sevastopol to Russia, (and also the apparent similarity between the ethnic makeups of Crimea and Sudetenland as justification for intrusion).........and I'd wager that Putin is not undertaking this action because there's nothing interesting on TV.



you did indeed so mention.

sorry i'd dismissed because, to this poor pie at least, none of those reasons appear to be near any ballpark of sufficient importance to trigger the full-blown russian invasion of crimea that we're seeing:

1) sevastopol naval base was not at risk;

2) when putin talks about protecting russian persons/interests in ukraine it's obviously a diverting ploy on his part, so trying to update sudetenland history doesn't work imho;

3) watching tv or any other spectator activity doesn't seem to interest putin, he even looked bored at the olympics.

the real russia drivers in this story have to be deeper & more compelling, i am thinking


----------



## uptoolate

Couldn't it just be politics? I don't think FDR would have been elected President 4 times if there hadn't been a war. Nothing like a good dust up or the threat of one to solidify the positions of the ruling class. Just ask Czar Nicholas...


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> you did indeed so mention.
> 
> sorry i'd dismissed because, to this poor pie at least, none of those reasons appear to be near any ballpark of sufficient importance to trigger the full-blown russian invasion of crimea that we're seeing:
> 
> 1) sevastopol naval base was not at risk; *Do we know that with all certainty?*
> 
> 2) when putin talks about protecting russian persons/interests in ukraine it's obviously a diverting ploy on his part, so trying to update sudetenland history doesn't work imho;*As were the actions of Herr Schicklgruber a ploy....look what happened.*
> 
> 3) watching tv or any other spectator activity doesn't seem to interest putin, he even looked bored at the olympics.
> 
> the real russia drivers in this story have to be deeper & more compelling, i am thinking


What we can be sure of is that what we're told is not all, or perhaps not _any_ of the 'truth'.............as dear Mr Holmes used to say "The game's afoot".


----------



## humble_pie

uptoolate said:


> And don't forget Liechtenstein! I'd really like to see them start to throw their weight around!


i like el salvador myself


----------



## GoldStone

Russian state TV host issued this warning on the air tonight:

*“Russia is the only country capable of turning the U.S. into radioactive dust.”*

Reported by Associated Press correspondent, Maria Danilova.
http://twitter.com/mashadanilova


----------



## gibor365

Crimea exit poll: Around 93% back Russia union. Estimated participation rate 80%. 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26598832

_Olga Koziko, told the BBC that she was voting for secession because she did not want to be governed by "those Nazis who came to power in Kiev"._ I also wouldn't like it


----------



## humble_pie

GoldStone said:


> Russian state TV host issued this warning on the air tonight:
> 
> *“Russia is the only country capable of turning the U.S. into radioactive dust.”*



now who's sensation-mongering?

perhaps you'd want to look at the sensationalized history of the man who made that foolish remark. He's the man who said the hearts of gay people should be torn out and buried. We have to assume he meant after their natural deaths, though.

Dmitry Kiselyov was a relatively-unknown conservative journalist, infamous for his lurid gaffes about gays, when putin put him in charge of state propaganda channel Russia Today in december 2013.

what a disservice to the motherland! do you think kiselyov will last as the fat, balding face of new russia?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...esenter-kiselyov-head-news-agency-homosexuals

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...how-host-defends-anti-gay-remarks/484517.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/12/17/meet-dmitry-kiselyov-putin-s-new-shock-jock.html


----------



## GoldStone

HP, the comment I posted doesn't mean that Russia is about to launch a nuclear war against the West.

OTOH, Russia has gone "nuclear" on its own population. Kiselyov's extreme rhetoric is part of the massive propaganda campaign that whipped the population into nationalistic frenzy.

Your 3rd link says that Dmitry Kiselyov is the most powerful man in Russian media. I wouldn't discount him as easily as you did.


----------



## gibor365

Who is going?!
_Maidan at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC.
Starts tomorrow! Bring your own chocolate cookies, root beer, and molotov cocktails!_


----------



## gibor365

_International observers are planning to present their final declaration on the Crimean referendum on March 17, the head of the monitors’ commission, Polish MP Mateush Piskorski told journalists. He added that the voting was held in line with international norms and standards._
http://www.theminorityreportblog.co...-referendum-voted-to-join-russia-u-s-rejects/


----------



## humble_pie

GoldStone said:


> Your 3rd link says that Dmitry Kiselyov is the most powerful man in Russian media. I wouldn't discount him as easily as you did.



one has to look at the source who wrote up that evaluation. It's true that journo James Kirchick said the beefy kiselyov is the most powerful man in the country's "newly consolidated media scene."

but how would kirchick decide this? how could he, personally, all by himself, crown the "most powerful"? let alone who's consolidating, who isn't consolidating, who's in the scene, who's out of the scene.

what kirchick is, though, is a person predisposed to always find himself on the opposite side of the *забор* from the homophobic russian state media mogul.

"Gay reporter James Kirchick kicked off Russia’s RT news network for protesting anti-gay laws" says the NY daily news last august.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...-news-network-article-1.1432889#ixzz2wA8Fb1re


----------



## GoldStone

HP, forget about Kirchick.

Kiselyov is the head of the state news agency, directly appointed by Putin. You can't dismiss his rhetoric as unimportant.


----------



## GoldStone

HP, note the background. Kiselyov didn't misspeak in the heat of the moment. He had time to think and prepare the props.


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> International observers are planning to present... blah blah blah


Press-conference of international observers before the referendum:










The guy in the yellow shirt and glasses is Srđa Trifković. He was denied entry to Canada on the following grounds:

"inadmissible on grounds of violating human or international rights for being a proscribed senior official in the service of a government that, in the opinion of the minister, engages or has engaged in terrorism, systematic or gross human rights violations, or genocide, a war crime or a crime against humanity within the meaning of subsections 6 (3) to (5) of the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act."

Other observers in the above photo: a far-right no-name Hungarian MP, a far-left no-name Greek MP. 

Apparently this is the best Russian authorities could recruit on a short notice, after OSCE refused to send the observers.

Source: live twitting by Max Seddon
http://twitter.com/maxseddon


----------



## thompsg4416

They refused to send observers because in reality the option to join Russia is genuinely supported amongst the public. A far and free election unlike the one that elected the current Ukrainian leader would had offered lent some credence to the result. 

Why are we supporting the current leadership? We (Canada)have nothing at stake - our trade with Russia is insignificant and if anything they are a competition albeit in different markets for the most part. Unfortunately it's hard to say why Harper does things, there has never been a more partisan leader in Canada. With nothing to lose he can come out swinging - support our old allies in Europe and likely more importantly pick up some of the Canadian Ukrainian vote as well as some sympathy votes.

For the US and NATO this is about isolating a non allied country. You can use almost any example in the last 20 years that you want - the Us and Russia have competing global and financial interests. They are one of the few countries that still apposes US military intervention(insert country here) and as a permanent security council member with a veto has some sway. Isolating them makes life for the USA easier. 

I think the EU (F the EU eh) has some genuine security concerns in the eastern countries in addition to wanting to isolate Russia.


----------



## MoreMiles

Canada had balls with Cuba and did not join the US. We were still allow to visit Cuba despite those American Cold War tactics. This time, we seem to have lost them... whatever Obama says, we obey. He says jump, we say how high. 

Woof woof, just wag the tail and act obedient. They will let us keep our doghouse without invasion.


----------



## GoldStone

thompsg4416 said:


> They refused to send observers because in reality the option to join Russia is genuinely supported amongst the public.


No, they refused to send the observers because they consider referendum illegal.

No one denies that Russian majority in Crimea wants to join Russia. This does not justify Putin's invasion.

And no, the US and the EU are not trying to isolate Putin. He does a perfectly fine job of isolating himself. He had the option to negotiate with the new Ukranian government, or wait until the May elections. He has a very strong negotiating position with tons of leverage: gas supplies, military bases, support of ethnic Russians, etc. He chose to invade instead. The US and the EU have to do _something_ to send a strong message. If they don't, more invasions will follow. Putin dreams of restoring the old Soviet Union in some shape or form.


----------



## andrewf

So when are the secession referenda in Russian-occupied Georgia and Chechnya scheduled?


----------



## Longwinston

humble_pie said:


> nobody cares whether the mongols are members or member-affiliates. My point about the global make-up of NATO armed forces is valid.


You said Mongolia was a member of NATO. It is categorically not. 
Just admit you were wrong and move on.


----------



## Longwinston

It's scary how the small dog Canadian disease of anti Americanism can so quickly cloud ones otherwise sane judgment.


----------



## GoldStone

thompsg4416 said:


> in reality the option to join Russia is genuinely supported amongst the public


I guess that must be the reason why they didn't put a "NO" option on the ballot. "YES" is so popular, why bother with "NO".

Am I right?


----------



## thompsg4416

GoldStone said:


> No, they refused to send the observers because they consider referendum illegal.
> 
> No one denies that Russian majority in Crimea wants to join Russia. This does not justify Putin's invasion.


Who is justifying the invasion? I hope you're not implying i am. I haven't once said the invasion is justified. I do however disagree with your zero sum commentary - although some of Putin's actions have led to his isolation to say this is not what the West wants seems pretty cut and dry. Unfortunately I don't think its so simple as CNN makes it out to be.

Speaking of the law, it's been nothing but a pawn on both sides, applied when it suits ones purpose. Its hard to take any argument serious when they start talking about rule of law. It shows an ignorance of the facts and how both sides play ball. Law.. right.


----------



## thompsg4416

Longwinston said:


> It's scary how the small dog Canadian disease of anti Americanism can so quickly cloud ones otherwise sane judgment.


Longwinston - who's anti-american here?


----------



## thompsg4416

GoldStone said:


> I guess that must be the reason why they didn't put a "NO" option on the ballot. "YES" is so popular, why bother with "NO".


I actually wonder the same thing to be honest. It was definitely poor political judgement - although I still don't think that would have made a difference in the outcome. Even the most ardent EU/USA supports would say pro-Russian sentiment is quite strong. As someone who's followed the region for years now I'm often left asking why they do certain things. Even when it clearly doesn't matter and actually plays to their disadvantage they'll do things a certain way that just doesn't make sense. You're left shaking your head and asking why? 

The gay propaganda law is a perfect example of this. It has alot of popular support amongst russians but to enact it just before the Olympics when the world is watching is simply poor political judgement. Wait a month and enact it after...


----------



## thompsg4416

andrewf said:


> So when are the secession referenda in Russian-occupied Georgia and Chechnya scheduled?


Do you truly not understand or are you asking rhetorical questions for the sake of an argument? By reading most of your comments I'm starting to think you really don't understand.


----------



## GoldStone

thompsg4416 said:


> I do however disagree with your zero sum commentary - although some of Putin's actions have led to his isolation to say this is not what the West wants seems pretty cut and dry.


The West wants a predictable, trusted partner they can negotiate with. If Putin continues his thuggish behavior, yes he will end up isolated.

Remember, Obama tried the "reset" policy with Putin. It ended up being a disaster. Putin saw the "reset" as America's weakness. It just emboldened him to kick Obama in the teeth every chance he got. Crimea invasion is the latest example.

May I suggest that you read the article in the Foreign Policy magazine. Obama's foreign policy doctrine is quite different from what you think it is.

How the Russian 'Reset' Explains Obama's Foreign Policy. The president's naivete about Vladimir Putin is the root cause of his failure.

Disable JavaScript if you get a popup to register.


----------



## GoldStone

thompsg4416 said:


> As someone who's followed the region for years now I'm often left asking why they do certain things. Even when it clearly doesn't matter and actually plays to their disadvantage they'll do things a certain way that just doesn't make sense. You're left shaking your head and asking why?


As someone who grew up in the region in the times of the Iron Curtain, I'm not surprised in the least by how Putin's regime operates.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> So when are the secession referenda in Russian-occupied Georgia and Chechnya scheduled?


Russian-occupied Georgia ?! Are you kidding me?!


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> As someone who grew up in the region in the times of the Iron Curtain, I'm not surprised in the least by how Putin's regime operates.


What region are talking about?


Looks like some people still live " in the times of the Iron Curtain".


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Looks like some people still live " in the times of the Iron Curtain".


Yes. Putin.


----------



## gibor365

_Founded in 1983, the International Republican Institute (IRI) is an organisation, funded by the United States government, that conducts international political programs, sometimes called 'democratization programs'_
It's just funny that "_A poll by the International Republican Institute in May 2013 found that 67% wanted to remain in Ukraine, and 23% wanted unity with Russia_
and less than 1 year later *Preliminary results indicated that over 90% of voters supported the choice to join Russia with a turnout of over 80%*
What a joke International Republican Institute !!!!


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> *Preliminary results indicated that over 90% of voters supported the choice to join Russia with a turnout of over 80%*


In other news....

Kim Jong-un won 100% of the vote in his riding, which had 100% turnout


----------



## Longwinston

GoldStone said:


> In other news....
> 
> Kim Jong-un won 100% of the vote in his riding, which had 100% turnout


Truly impressive. Looks like Putin has a thing or two to learn about democracy from dear leader.


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> In other news....
> 
> Kim Jong-un won 100% of the vote in his riding, which had 100% turnout


I'm happy for Kim.... Only here is nothing to do with Kim or even ... Putin. More than 90% of Crimea people want to join Russia whatever US/EU/NATO yell.


----------



## thompsg4416

Saunders wrote a good article in the globe and mail recently. His point was we shouldn't be throwing around terms/comparisons such as the cold war and WW2 when it clearly isn't anything close to that.

I lived there from 2006-2008 again in 2010 and visit 2-3 times a year - it is not the Soviet Union. There is control over television but print and the internet is all free. You can't say that about the Soviet union. In fact for the average person they live the same life as you and I in the west. They travel, the go to facebook, vkontakte, odinklassniki whatever social forum you want to mention. They just had a protest where 50k people marched against the "War" in Crimea... This would not happen during soviet times. My point is they live a normal live and comparisons to the Soviet Union distort the truth of the situation on the ground. Don't get me wrong if you get involved in politics its a different story but for 99% of people it just isn't the case. 

This isn't to say things are roses and sunshine - there are serious problems and they should be talked about... But they should be based on their own merits not outdated comparisons to times long gone because its an easy to sell narrative..


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 , you are right and as I wrote before you cannot compare current Russia to CCCP, as you cannot ccompare current Germany to 3rd Reich


----------



## braintootired

Premium's gone up. Good time to be an options seller.


----------



## thompsg4416

Premium on what?


----------



## Longwinston

"There is control over television but print and the internet is all free."

Patently untrue. Radio, web and print has been dramatically curtailed.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...-the-squeeze-on-independent-media/496245.html


----------



## humble_pie

nice range of opinion here, arguments very well presented by thomps4416, goldstone & gibor.

everything from A to Z. At one extreme, demonized putin is evilly plotting a new imperial russia, with one territory to be invaded & annexed after another, so the righteous democratic west is duty-bound to stop him.

at the other extreme, uncle vlad was just thoughtfully sending a few friendly trucks & tanks to help bring exiled russians in crimea home again to the motherland, where they have longed to be ever since they were orphaned 21 years ago.

somewhere in the middle, thomps sees that US & western policy is intended to isolate & thus weaken russia, appears to believe that canada could carve out an independent policy of her own.

nice show! thanks guys


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> at the other extreme, uncle vlad was just thoughtfully sending a few friendly trucks & tanks to help bring exiled russians in crimea home again to the motherland, where they have longed to be ever since they were orphaned 21 years ago.


btw, yesterday I read in western media (not RT.com ) that as per agreement Russia is allowed to have 25,000 military troops in Sevastopol, now Russia deployed about 21,000 . So , everything as per agreement.


----------



## gibor365

Heard in the morning on 680 news that Harper was first western leader who denounced results of referendum.... looks like he gonna get another box of beer from Obama


----------



## humble_pie

gibor marquis of queensbury rules dictate that your next move should have been to bow to your 2 confrères & congratulate them on the high quality of their research ...

btw 21,000-25,000 russian military personnel permitted in crimea would be about the complement of the permanent naval base at sevastopol. Recent guests in full battle dress were over & above the limit, je pense.


----------



## gibor365

Interesting numbers today.
Russian RTSI INDEX +4.79%
Ukraine PFTS Index -5.28%

lokks like market likes Crimea referendum


----------



## braintootired

Odd, considering your options on the referendum were "secede" or "secede and join Russia", and you can only answer "yes" to one of them.


----------



## GoldStone

The Man Who Saved Russia's Economy Counts the Cost of Crimea


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> The Man Who Saved Russia's Economy Counts the Cost of Crimea


Money is important..... but if Putin and Russian government will betray Crimean people, it will hurt very his image very badly....
as well as bending knees in front of US/NATO

On the other hand:
Russians spent billions of dollars on European companies over the weekend, underlining the deep ties between Moscow and the EU
.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/17/news/companies/russia-europe-deals/index.html?iid=EL


----------



## gibor365

Don't bite hand that feeding you 
_A senior EU official warned on Monday that the EU's 28 member states and Ukraine could run out of gas by the end of October if Russia plays "energy politics" and cuts off supplies in the diplomatic war over the future of Crimea.

A survey of gas supplies in the EU, conducted in the wake of the Russian occupation, found that the EU has 40bn cubic metres in its energy supplies – enough to last until the onset of winter.

The EU official said of a cut in Russian energy supplies: "We are under no illusions: come next winter, yes, we would have a significant problem_

Waiting for Crimea's similar list 
_Sanctions legislation published on Monday on the website of the Official Journal of the European Union named 8 Ukrainian officials and 13 Russian officials. Like the US list, the EU list included the Crimean prime minister, Sergei Aksyonov, parliament speaker Vladimir Konstantinov; and Russian state Duma deputies Andrei Klishas and Leonid Slutsky. In addition, however, it targeted more prominent Russian politicians than the US sanctions, including Duma deputy speaker Sergei Zheleznyak, who has made numerous public appearances to comment on the Kremlin line in support of Crimea, and Sergei Mironov, leader of the party A Just Russia who has also called for Russian intervention in Ukraine and initiated legislation to speed up the process of obtaining Russian citizenship for Ukrainians. Most of the Russian politicians were sanctioned for supporting the deployment of Russian forces in Ukraine on 1 March, the list said.

The EU sanctions also targeted Deniz Berezovsky, the Ukrainian naval commander who joined Crimean forces, and Russian military commanders Alexander Vitko, Anatoly Sidorov and Alexander Galkin, who the legislation claimed led the Crimea deployment._


----------



## andrewf

How long until Russia runs out of cash to buy bananas and London real estate?


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> *1.* US just scared from strong leader like Putin and scared of strong Russia....And *when Russia concerned about millions of their people in Ukraine, Russia became "disctatorship"*....*It's not even double, it's triple-standards*
> *2.* Putin is a *smart guy and Obama mostly "talking head"*
> *3.* Yes, there is *corruption in Russia, but don't you remember our "sponsorship scandal"?*!
> *4.* all this US propaganda about *anti-gay law is complete BS*
> *5.* Can you give name *whom Putin killed?*!
> *6.* 10 China's and 10 Russia won't stand up to the US technological advantages…Typical western brainwashing *Do you know who send 1st human to space?!*
> *7.* US should *care about their own business.*
> *8.* I'd advise you to read very interesting book *"The Island of Crimea"*


Some very interesting and also surprising comments. 

*1.* I'm certainly no admirer of Pootin' nor Russophobic, but it's true that to be critical, one also has to understand the valid reasons for Russia's resentment of the West [not just via newspapers & current events]. However, it does not change the fact that the motives of this thug's current invasion, had nothing whatsoever to do with his 'concern about millions of their people in Ukraine'. Get real! Also, with that rationale, it will likely not end with Crimea, because this is mostly about the expansionist dreams of this former CP KGB POS. Absolutely plenty of 'triple standards' & hypocrisy by all countries, but to praise this evil POS is puzzling to me. 

*2.* Yes, Putin is 'smart, strong', a KGB apparatchik, and why not add peaceful to that list of adjectives also, since after all, this brute, a staunch supporter of the butcher of Syria, and who's allegedly offered missiles and reactors to his friends in Iran last year, has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Who do you reckon was the nominator? Not you gibor,  but the 'International Academy of Spiritual Unity and Cooperation of Peoples of the World, a Russian advocacy group that broadly pursues peace.' Also, as history has shown, brilliance, charisma, etc., does not = good necessarily. :rolleyes2:

However, I do agree with you about the 'talking head', which reminded me of the 2012 debates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn1zt1TXNtY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd-LSbBEIbA

*3.* You are comparing Canada with Russia? :eek2: The Corruption Perceptions Index, and just one of the measures of corruption, has Canada in 9th place/your beloved Rossiyskaya Federatsiya in 127th [Ukraine not far at 144th].

*4.* Some of it is propaganda, absolutely, but not all is merely 'BS'.

*5.* Hmmmm, who do you think may have approved/ordered [directly or not], the assassination of many of Putin's critics, ie: Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya [of all days, on Putin's B'day?]. Or how about Yuri Shchekochikhin, Alexander Litvinenko, et al?.

*6.* Russia, so what's your point? That the Russians are smart? Human history is full of remarkable scientific & technological 'firsts'. If you were to make a list of what country has had the most 'firsts', since just Yuri Gagarin's journey into space some 50+ years ago, who would come on top? Not China, and not Russia either. Moreover, just compare their respective geography & neighbours vs. that of the US, what do you see? You don't even need a crystal ball to see the [near] future.

*7.* Pure 'shibboleth', and not exactly the role of a sole superpower. If I may ask, if you were given a choice of just being able to immigrate only to the US or go back to Russia [or Israel], I'm pretty sure you would pick: quoting you - "the democracy planter US and A".

*'Our President, according to a Forbes power rating, even comes in second behind Vladimir Putin.
Yet, the United States is the world leader and likely to remain there for decades. It has the greatest soft power in the world by far. The United States still receives far more immigrants each year (1 million) than any other country in the world. The United States leads the world in high technology (Silicon Valley), finance and business (Wall Street), the movies (Hollywood) and higher education (17 of the top 20 universities in the world in Shanghai’s Jaotong University survey). The United States has a First World trade profile (massive exports of consumer and technology goods and imports of natural resources).'*
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi...s-remains-the-worlds-unchallenged-superpower/

*8.* Will do, thanks for recommending it. I would also suggest another compelling read from a non-Russian POV: 'The Crimean War' by Orlando Figes.
http://www.economist.com/node/17145178


----------



## gibor365

T.gal, don't wanr to argue with because we are looking at Russia/US from different perspective.... regardless our different view.... it's nothing to do with Crimea where 95% want to join Russia (just read history of Crimea and you will understand better)... and Ukranian pro-Nazi Putsch!


----------



## gibor365

_If I may ask, if you were given a choice of just being able to immigrate only to the US or go back to Russia [or Israel], I'm pretty sure you would pick: quoting you - "the democracy planter US and A".
_
Just wanted to elaborate on this personal question  More chances that personally I'd go back to Israel than to "the democracy planter US and A". (cannot say something certain about Russia, haven't been there from 1990 , but Crimea can be nice as retirement option). BTW, i don't remember if I mentioned here, 3.5 years ago my wife was giving tough choice : 1. relocate to US (L1A/L1B visas, very big raise in salary + full recolation premiums) with options: Folson CA, Hillsboro OR, Chandler AZ 2. get laid off 
We visited all those cities considering relocation, but decided that it doesn't worth it and stayed in Mississauga.
Another example, my wife's brother won Green card, came to US with family and after 1 year went back to Israel. 
I just don't understand why some people are so fond of this country.... 
regarding immigration, looking at % of population, number of legal immigrant to Canada more than twice higher than to US.... actually, "Russia experiences a constant flow of immigration. On average, 200,000 legal immigrants enter the country every year; about half are ethnic Russians from other republics of the former Soviet Union. In addition, there are an estimated 10–12 million unauthorized immigrants in the country"


----------



## gibor365

regardless opposite political views, what is your opinion on world market rallies after Crimea referendum? Just Russian index gained almost 10% in last 2 days... I wasn't expecting it....


----------



## humble_pie

no one can fail to react to putin's speech this am to parliament's general assembly, immediately prior to signing the convention annexing crimea to russia.

seen from russia's point of view, this speech is not aggressive. It is majestic. There is no mistaking the optimism & the calm sense of resolve among listening members of the assembly. As Associated Press journalist Maria Danilova reports from sevastopol:

"Historic speech by Putin, the world will not be the same again."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...is-putin-plan-crimea-annex-speech-russia-live


----------



## GoldStone

humble_pie said:


> As Associated Press journalist Maria Danilova reports from sevastopol:
> 
> "Historic speech by Putin, the world will not be the same again."


I saw that twit earlier today. I'm _almost_ certain she meant it as sarcasm.


----------



## Nemo2

^^ Love the seating arrangements....the Mullah next to the Rabbi......Blatant P.R. ......he outdid the US Democrats. :biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

me i think she's dead serious.

you see? it's a prism, an enigma. Room for all points of view.

one thing we're agreed, danilova is no admirer of putin, right?


----------



## GoldStone

Absolutely. You would be hard pressed to find a well-educated, intelligent, mild-mannered Russian who is an admirer of Putin.


----------



## GoldStone

T.Gal - great post #377. Thank you.


----------



## thompsg4416

GoldStone said:


> Absolutely. You would be hard pressed to find a well-educated, intelligent, mild-mannered Russian who is an admirer of Putin.


Really GoldStone? A very broad and interesting assumption. I would expect some far more educated people then yourself might say the same about your comment. 

HP: "seen from russia's point of view, this speech is not aggressive. It is majestic. There is no mistaking the optimism & the calm sense of resolve among listening members of the assembly. As Associated Press journalist Maria Danilova reports from sevastopol:"

To try and put this into perspective for anyone who's interested (not justification but perspective). Imagine Quebec separates - Imagine Quebec was able to separate while maintaining territorial integrity. Then imagine how those on West Island, Aylmer, Pontiac or any other english part of Quebec would feel. Imagine how many in the ROC would feel. 

Many in RoC already have alot of animosity towards Quebec. Think about how they would feel after separation! Now try and imagine we invaded Quebec and took over one of these areas. How many in Canada would support it? How many in Canada would feel a historical wrong would have been righted? How many Canadians would be proud?

Would it be right to invade Quebec - certainly not, especially from a law point of view. However I guarantee alot of people would be in the streets cheering. Alot of Canadians would say we were right. This is the situation you're looking at in the Crimea. 

To most Russians this isn't like invading another country - this isn't like Canada invading the US. This is like getting back a piece of what was wrongfully taken from them in the first place. Its like an argument or a fight within family which I think most people can agree is not like getting into a fight with a stranger. 

I feel this is the part of the debate most westerners who have no understanding of the region or its history fail to understand. I want to make clear this still isn't justification but it certainly adds context one many choose to ignore.


----------



## andrewf

Would this be two decades after RoC has already recognized Quebec sovereignty and territorial integrity?

Also, Russians in Crimea are hardly worse treated than Anglos in Quebec. The pretext of protecting ethnic Russians is particularly flimsy. Not that Russia invaded Crimea. Just that the troops it didn't invade with are protecting ethnic Russians from the phantom menace of the rest of Ukraine.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> . Not that Russia invaded Crimea. Just that the troops it didn't invade with are protecting ethnic.


Sure that Russia didn't invade Crimea! Crimea had referendun and 95% asking Russia to accept them ....
and when you are talking about "invaded", the best example will be US invading Grenada, who didn't do referendum and didn't ask Americans to come.


----------



## gibor365

_You would be hard pressed to find a well-educated, intelligent, mild-mannered Russian who is an admirer of ...._ *any politician*


----------



## gibor365

I'm feeling bad for non-Ukrainian majority in major ukranian cities of Donetzk, Kharkov, Lugansk, Dnepropetrovsk and so on... when neo-nazis coming to power in ukraine. I hope that Russia finally will get from Ukraine 2 billion $ they own for gas and using this money will create special relocation program for people who want move to Russia.... I bet a lot of Ukranians also would like to move to Russia, as economical situation Russia vs Ukraine, like US vs Mexico. 

and for sure, Russia doesn't have any intention to go to "zapadentzy" West Ukraine....and let Poland to demand back Polish city Lviv, FYI in 1931 in Lviv lived 1931
more than 50% Poles, 32% Jews and only 16% Ukranians


----------



## thompsg4416

andrewf said:


> Would this be two decades after RoC has already recognized Quebec sovereignty and territorial integrity?
> 
> Also, Russians in Crimea are hardly worse treated than Anglos in Quebec. The pretext of protecting ethnic Russians is particularly flimsy. Not that Russia invaded Crimea. Just that the troops it didn't invade with are protecting ethnic Russians from the phantom menace of the rest of Ukraine.


Will the RoC have a choice to recognize Quebec Sovereignty? It's not like we'll get to have a referendum on it. Besides I hardly want to get into a debate about the details of Quebec sovereignty, its not particularly important in this case. The point was to provide a Russian perspective on things.

Also just so we're clear - the whole idea of protecting ethnic Russians is nonsense. Something made up so Russia could pursue its greater objectives(for reference think WMD). Lets try push past the nonsense and partisanship so we can have some real conversation. I realise its difficult for some. Its like a republicans and democrats in here.


----------



## thompsg4416

Eh druzhok Gibor - you're one one of the republicans.. lol I swear some of the stuff you repeat comes straight from Kremlin press.


----------



## juniperpansy

gibor said:


> ... Leonid Slutsky.


hahahaaha


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Sure that Russia didn't invade Crimea! Crimea had referendun and 95% asking Russia to accept them ....
> and when you are talking about "invaded", the best example will be US invading Grenada, who didn't do referendum and didn't ask Americans to come.


I ask you kindly not to misquote me.


----------



## andrewf

thompsg4416 said:


> Will the RoC have a choice to recognize Quebec Sovereignty? It's not like we'll get to have a referendum on it. Besides I hardly want to get into a debate about the details of Quebec sovereignty, its not particularly important in this case. The point was to provide a Russian perspective on things.
> 
> Also just so we're clear - the whole idea of protecting ethnic Russians is nonsense. Something made up so Russia could pursue its greater objectives(for reference think WMD). Lets try push past the nonsense and partisanship so we can have some real conversation. I realise its difficult for some. Its like a republicans and democrats in here.


Yes, there will be a referendum. Quebec leaving Canada requires a constitutional change, which the other provinces need to ratify.

You may not want to bring in Quebec. My point was to show that your analogy was not apt. Russia has already recognized Crimea as a part of Ukraine, going so far as to negotiate leases for military bases in Crimea with Ukraine.

What this boils down to is Russia gains a bit of strategically important territory, and in exchange alienates the West more than at any point since the end of the Cold War and gives the rest of its neighbours a firm push towards NATO/the West. Maybe that was a smart trade-off. I doubt it, though.


----------



## humble_pie

thompsg4416 said:


> Imagine Quebec separates - Imagine Quebec was able to separate while maintaining territorial integrity. Then imagine how those on West Island, Aylmer, Pontiac or any other english part of Quebec would feel. Imagine how many in the ROC would feel ...
> 
> Would it be right to invade Quebec - certainly not, especially from a law point of view. However I guarantee alot of people would be in the streets cheering.




thomps i don't think the quebec analogy holds.

quebec would only "separate" after a majority vote by her citizens - in a referendum whose terms haven't even been decided yet, let alone whether it will be held.

but crimea did not vote in years past to separate from russia & join ukraine. The region was simply handed over to ukraine - apparently in 1992 - like so much baggage.

to carry on with your analogy about canada invading quebec after a fair vote by quebecers, the correct analogy would be ukraine right now "invading" crimea so as to get it back, would it not?

as for canada, i don't believe the ROC would invade a separate quebec. The minority anglophone/anglo rights citizens living in Aylmer or Hudson would not even want that. I imagine their choices would roughly boil down to: 1) oppose diligently in all media & political channels short of open warfare; 2) move out of quebec; or 3) assimilate. Few would choose option 1).

the way i see it, civil rights of ukrainians in crimea are now worrisome. In his speech yesterday, putin touched on these. He said that crimea, which had been a bilingual region, would now become officially trilingual. Russian. Ukrainian. Tatar. Yes i get it that this could be nothing more than hot air.

however, even as a plan it's better than quebec at the present moment, where strawberries & melon balls for breakfast were recently declared illegal because they were presented in english.


----------



## MoreMiles

I hope Russia does not want to have Alaska back. It's interesting how Alaskan converted to speak English with very little trace of Russian influence left nowadays. Should Alaska hold a referendum too? Wasn't it also given / sold from Russia?


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> Eh druzhok Gibor - you're one one of the republicans.. lol I swear some of the stuff you repeat comes straight from Kremlin press.


TYovarisch Thompsg, can you give examples of this "stuff"?! Actually I don't read Kremlin press, except couple of atricles on RT.com (if you count it as Kremlin)...


----------



## gibor365

MoreMiles said:


> Should Alaska hold a referendum too? Wasn't it also given / sold from Russia?


 Yeah, but just after California referendum to join with Mexico


----------



## andrewf

Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954, though that distinction only became very meaningful in the 1990s.


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. we are looking at Russia/US from different perspective....
> 2. Just Russian index gained almost 10% in last 2 days... I wasn't expecting it....
> 3. Sure that Russia didn't invade Crimea! Crimea had referendun and 95% asking Russia to accept them


*1.* Absolutely, and I can fully respect/understand that since you lived there 1/2 your life. However, you were too quick to dismiss some facts by calling them pure fantasy or merely US/western propaganda, and there is where I disagreed. Also, IMHO, you showed too much love for ruthless Putin that surprised me [even when I understood your CCCP vs. RF comparisons]. In fact, you sounded a lot like him at times, too, ie: Putin would ask, what about when the US invaded here and there, and u did same?  

About the personal question, thanks for the answers, which also semi-surprised me.

*2.* It was mostly a reversal of past few days also, so nothing to get too excited about.

*3.* It was no humanitarian intervention, that's for sure! What it was, was a super snappy referendum arranged with Russian troops present/vote requested & completed in just over a week/without the ability to vote 'no'/and a 97% result. Was Kim Jong Un one of the International Observers? :rolleyes2: 

Would there have been a referendum without Russia's intervention?

*GS:* thanks.

*Nemo:* regarding the seating arrangements, I had thought exactly the same. :biggrin:


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954, though that distinction only became very meaningful in the 1990s.


Until 1992 distinction was less than between Ontatio and Manitoba regarding Crimea, and like Ontatio and Manitoba regarding Eastern Ukraine. Regarding Wester Ukraine, the distinction was like betwen Ontrario and Quebec.... more west into Ukraine = more East into Quebec .


----------



## gibor365

_Would there have been a referendum without Russia's intervention?_ definetely yes! Putsch in Kiev triggered it.

_In fact, you sounded a lot like him at times, too, ie: Putin would ask, what about when the US invaded here and there, and u did same?_
About US invaded here and there, I was writing here and on other forums for a very long time, before Putin was talking about it and wasn't really reading/listening about what putin was talking...
Regarding "liking him" - you are mistaken, many of his actions I didn't like, but I support his politics regarding Crimea and Georgia


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. Putsch in Kiev triggered it.
> 2. About US invaded here and there, I was writing here and on other forums for a very long time, before Putin was talking about it.


*1.* Forgetting what other countries have done for a moment, wasn't Ukraine correct when it said that Crimea violated the vote per article #73? 'Issues of altering the territory of Ukraine are resolved exclusively by an *All*-Ukrainian referendum.'
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2004 

*2. *You're right, and I didn't mean you were copying him, just that you sounded the same at times. :wink:


----------



## gibor365

T.gal, and I was kinda surprised by your comments regarding "mighty US"  I like US nature, new England, West coast, G. Canyon....but live there?! -> "has ve halila" 

As per Ukranian constitution, Yanukovych is current President of Ukraine, and putsch that happened is unconstitutional.


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. T.gal, and I was kinda surprised by your comments regarding "mighty US"
> 2. but live there?! -> "has ve halila"


1. Touché, but it's mighty alright, whether we like it or not. However, it does not mean that I'm in agreement with all their meddling. 
2. Ken, ani mevina.


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> 2. Ken, ani mevina.


Ani sameah  Also you should "lehavin" that I don't want that Ukraine will be ruled by "politicians" giving title of "Hero of Ukraine" to Bendera and Shuhevich (I think you know who are those guys)..
Just read:
Kiev Mob Stabs Rabbi Hillel Cohen in Anti-Semitic Attack (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/kiev-mob-stabs-rabbi-hillel-cohen-anti-semitic-attack-1440385)


*Ukraine: Svoboda Party Building Close Relations with Germany's Neo-Nazi NPD Party* .... A demonstration of Svoboda's right-wing positions was a rally organised by the party to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the 14th Waffen SS Grenadier Division, made up of ethnic Ukrainians.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-sv...relations-germanys-neo-nazi-npd-party-1440899


----------



## gibor365

*Argentina's President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner accused Britain of double standards over Crimea and the FalklandsReuters*

Prime minister David Cameron said the vote was "illegitimate and illegal," while foreign secretary William Hague denounced it as a "mockery of proper democratic practice".

Before signing a treaty accepting the Black Sea peninsula as part of Russia, President Vladimir Putin said Crimean authorities had called the referendum in accordance to the UN principle of self-determination.

The same principle was cited by Cameron as he welcomed the outcome of a vote by Falkland Islanders who decided to remain part of the UK last year.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/crimea-ref...double-standards-after-falklands-poll-1440967


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. Ani sameah
> 2. I don't want that Ukraine will be ruled by "politicians" giving title of "Hero of Ukraine" to Bendera and Shuhevich (I think you know who are those guys)..
> 3. Svoboda Party Building Close Relations with Germany's Neo-Nazi NPD Party.


*1.* Ditto, lol, especially now that you have clarified your thoughts about Putin.

*2.* No, of course not, though no matter what, their legacy will continue to live in the hearts of millions of Ukranians, unfortunately.

*3. * Extremist & fanatical political parties are nothing new, and neither is their need to blame and hate specific groups [what defines them]. But what never ceases to amaze, is how quickly they rise in popularity/power, or maybe not so surprising when taking into account that it wasn't until 09 & during the country's economic collapse when Svoda began to truly register with the public [{think Greece/Golden Dawn also}]. From 0 to 38 seats in 2 elections just like that.

As for the anti-semitic attacks, must be their hate for Pinchuk, et al, so the hate is normal.

I wanted to order from the library the book you recommended, but it's not holdable, just for reference, so I shall buy it. I'm interested in the book after reading about the Author's background; should be an interesting comparison to Figes' book.


----------



## gibor365

Also "Generations of Winter " should be pretty interesting for (there is English version in Mississauga library), But "Island of Crimea" was my favorite...


P.S. You know....legacy is fine....but I'd try to prevent by all means that carriers of such "legacy" will be in the parlament (regardless of country)


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> I don't want that Ukraine will be ruled by "politicians" giving title of "Hero of Ukraine" to Bendera and Shuhevich (I think you know who are those guys)..


I strongly agree. Of countless points you made in this thread, that's one of the few we can agree upon. 



gibor said:


> Just read:
> Kiev Mob Stabs Rabbi Hillel Cohen in Anti-Semitic Attack (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/kiev-mob-stabs-rabbi-hillel-cohen-anti-semitic-attack-1440385)


The other side (Yanukovich, Berkut etc) is no better.

Jewish community outraged at Berkuts’ antisemitic propaganda

We have no way of knowing who stabbed the Rabbi. It can be anyone, including an FSB agent who had been tasked to manufacture evidence to support Putin's talking point.


----------



## GoldStone

In somewhat related news, you will be delighted to learn that Putin threatened to change his Iran nuclear policy.

Russia: Iran nuke talks may suffer over Ukraine



> VIENNA (AP) — U.S.-Russian tensions over Ukraine spilled over into nuclear talks with Iran Wednesday, with Moscow's chief envoy at the negotiations warning that his country may take "retaliatory measures" that could hurt attempts to persuade Tehran to cut back on programs that could make atomic arms.


gibor, you are blind not to see that Putin is an evil madman.


----------



## Nemo2

GoldStone said:


> ....you are blind not to see that Putin is an evil madman.


Or a helluva poker player?


----------



## GoldStone

The two options are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## Nemo2

GoldStone said:


> The two options are not mutually exclusive.


Consider my post amended to and/or. :wink:


----------



## Eder

It’s a sad day for America when you have to get your honest news from the pigs at Goldman Sachs, B of A, and Morgan Stanley. 

This is a quote from a relevant read I just finished found here 

http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/


Man I really hate the spin we get bombarded with 24/7...


----------



## andrewf

I think he's thinking awfully short term here. Longer term, EU has greater incentive to reduce dependence on Russian energy imports. And Russia can't just sell their output to China instead. China is already buying everything they need. If they tried to sell to more to China, they'd make less money, and probably a lot less. Adding a bunch of pop culture references doesn't change that fact. EU has incentive to build import facilities, and to reconsider their hostility to O&G fracking, given the alternative is relying on an increasingly belligerent and hostile neighbour.



> If Russia had held on to Alaska for just a dozen years longer, they’d have had pretty much all the oil and gas left in the Northern Hemisphere,


This guy is an idiot.


----------



## GoldStone

Eder said:


> It’s a sad day for America when you have to get your honest news from the pigs at Goldman Sachs, B of A, and Morgan Stanley.
> 
> This is a quote from a relevant read I just finished found here
> 
> http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/


Eder, thank you. That was a good read.

Two quotes stuck out to me.



> Russia under Putin is a corrupt kleptocracy, and Putin’s an authoritarian sleaze. In fact, one of the most bitter aspects of acknowledging Putin’s victory in Crimea is finding yourself on the same side as that cunning little rat and his merry band of murdering, extortionist chinovniki.


and



> The history of Ukraine in the 20th century is so horrific, such a non-stop nightmare, that it’s impossible to blame anyone who wants out.
> 
> When I meet Canadians whose last names end in ‘-enko,” I always think they should get down on their knees every night and say a prayer: “Thank you, God, for giving me great-grandparents smart enough to get out of Ukraine.” It’s useless assigning blame; the point is that it makes sense to vote for a country that can, at least in theory, protect you and give you a pittance, instead of one that has seen nothing but mass murder, artificial famine, pogrom and counter-pogrom, and endless ethnic hatred for as long as anyone can remember.


Ukraine is in a bad shape right now. Ordinary, non-political people are suffering.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> It’s a sad day for America when you have to get your honest news from the pigs at Goldman Sachs, B of A, and Morgan Stanley.
> 
> This is a quote from a relevant read I just finished found here
> 
> http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/
> 
> Man I really hate the spin we get bombarded with 24/7...


Good article...thanks

_McCain says Russia makes its money off oil and gas; true, but so what? Is there a better product to be selling on the world market? What should Russia be making money from, mortgage foreclosures? Oil and gas seem like a relatively honest way to make money. At any rate, I never heard an American politician shout this kind of insult at our beloved ally, Saudi Arabia, even though everything McCain said about Russia goes double—triple, quintuple—for that place._

same thing I was talking after referendum
_On Sunday, the Crimeans voted to join Russia in huge numbers—80% turnout, 95% for joining Russia according to reports. That result tracked with the BBC exit polls, which took into account the fact that most of the peninsula’s ethnic Tartars—about 14% of the population—boycotted the vote. That means a lot of ethnic Ukrainians (and maybe even a few ethnic Tartars) voted with the Russian bloc, and it’s not likely they did so because they’re rabid Russian nationalists. More likely, it reflects the fact that Ukraine is a very poor country, while Russia seems to be doing pretty well, for a “gas station masquerading as a country.” Ukraine is sort of the opposite: A country without the money to buy a tank of gas._


----------



## gibor365

_EU has greater incentive to reduce dependence on Russian energy imports._ really?! how?!
.... and why?! Do you really think that EU gives a sh%$ about Ukraine?!


----------



## uptoolate

The EU definitely cares about people in Ukraine, just as Canada and the US care what happens there. The level of discussion and concern reflect this. The same people also care very much about what happens in Russia and other places in the world.


----------



## andrewf

EU cares a lot about Russia being aggressive towards its former empire.


----------



## Toronto.gal

GoldStone said:


> - In somewhat related news, you will be delighted to learn that *Putin threatened to change his Iran nuclear policy.*
> - We have no way of knowing who stabbed the Rabbi. *It can be anyone*, including an FSB agent who had been tasked to manufacture evidence to support Putin's talking point.
> - gibor, you are blind not to see that *Putin is an evil madman*.


+1.

"Some may think that given past experience, we can never be careful enough and we should be thankful for Putin’s vigilance. But highlighting Ukrainian anti-Semitism has been one of his central propaganda tools whenever there is a pro-western government in Kiev. Strangely enough, when a more Kremlin-friendly president was in charge, the criticism disappeared.

Putin has ruthlessly suppressed freedom of speech in Russia, his police violently breaking up pro-democracy protests and jailing hundreds of demonstrators on trumped-up charges of “hooliganism.” His regime is unabashedly homophobic, introducing laws against LGBT rights and encouraging vigilante groups that use dating websites to lure gay Russians into violent and humiliating encounters which are filmed and posted online. Whether these and other authoritarian and hate-based policies are a reflection of his personal phobias or a simply an attempt to appeal to the paleo-conservative instincts of a large part of his Russian constituency, *his defense of Jews is not the product of any form of liberal or enlightened mindset.
*
But in our dealing with the master of the Kremlin, *we should never forget what a repressive dictator he is".*
Source: haaretz

There is no mental madness involved, simply that the botox/fillers, and who knows what else, have gone to the snake's head. His late friend Hugo Chávez, sought cancer treatment in Cuba because he was afraid he would be put to sleep forever in Venezuela, so most likely Putin has not had a facelift for fear of same.


----------



## gibor365

In quote below Saudi Arabia can be changed to Canada and it will be true 
_McCain says Russia makes its money off oil and gas; true, but so what? Is there a better product to be selling on the world market? What should Russia be making money from, mortgage foreclosures? Oil and gas seem like a relatively honest way to make money. At any rate, I never heard an American politician shout this kind of insult at our beloved ally, Saudi Arabia, even though everything McCain said about Russia goes double—triple, quintuple—for that place.
_


----------



## gibor365

Now heard on 680 news about Canada's 1st sunction against Russia! Manitobian Ukrainians boycotting Russian vodka (they sell 2 vodkas) and Russian beer (1 beer)  . Probably they are thinking that Crimea will go back to Ukraine because of it?!
The funny part that majority of "Ukrainian" alhocol are made in Crimea! probably they are not very good with geograpy....
Actually I gonna go today to LCBO and buy Russian Standard and some Crimea wine.....and gonna boycott Gorilka  (even though anyway I never buy it).... Was thinking what Ukranian products we used to buy....only 1 ... Ukranian cheese called "Rossijskij" in Yummy market North York..... Gonna boycott it too


----------



## humble_pie

the NY Times says all ukrainian troops - about 25,000 - are to vacate crimea in a move back to ukraine. No details on the logistics of such a move.

the times says it amounts to a de facto ukrainian surrender.

i feel personally pleased because it means lives will not be senselessly lost. But one is to worry about ukrainian civilians left behind in crimea, uneasy & possibly unhappy over annexation to russia but nowhere else to go as of yet. They will feel even more abandoned & fearful when the ukrainian forces pull out.


----------



## gibor365

_On March 1, 2014 President Turchynov appointed Berezovsky as Commander of the Naval Forces of Ukraine. In the morning of March 2, 2014 Berezovsky was dismissed from the post of commander of the Ukrainian Navy after he issued orders to lay down arms. After being dismissed, he appeared in media as pledging allegiance to the Crimean people.
On March 2, 2014 Berezovsky took an oath of allegiance to the people of Crimea. Earlier in the morning of the same day, he was removed from his position in the Ukrainian Navy "for failing to manage the Navy in extreme conditions" at the decision of the Defense Minister, Ihor Tenyukh
_
Thank you Deniz!

P.S. Tenyukh is a member of the far right Svoboda (Freedom) Party. -> meaning neo-nazi


----------



## gibor365

Why Britain will bleed Russian sanctions following Crimea referendum
Russian Trade
Britain may be clawing its way back to becoming an exporting behemoth with a £1tn target, set out by Chancellor George Osborne, but Russia is already a major partner to the UK.
In 2012, the UK exported £7.6bn of goods and services to Russia.
However, since Britain voiced its support the sanction, "we are therefore keeping under review our overall engagement with Russia," said the UK Trade and Investment.
"Some bilateral cooperation and trade support activity may be affected."
Overall, EU sanctions will massively affect the bloc as a whole as Russia is its number one trading partner.
Eurostat figures show that Russia accounts for almost 41% and trading reached record levels in 2012 [Figure 1].
Property
Britain's property market is booming, particularly in London, as wealthy Russians snap up the most expensive homes.
According to Savills, Russians spend on average £4.5m on London properties.
Furthermore, Russians bought 264 seven-figure homes in the capital, according to analysis by aviation company Beechcraft Corporation.
Land Registry figures also show that Russians spent more than £536m on acquiring their plush pads.
Russian Companies
Russian companies make up a large slice of Britain's financial markets.
In 1990, only 19% of the FTSE 250 were foreign companies but as of the end of 2012, the figure more than doubled to 44%.
There are also now 113 companies from Russia and the broader CIS region with shares quoted on the London Stock Exchange, thanks to the commodity boom as of the turn of the century as more than two-thirds of these companies are oil and gas or mining companies.
Lifestyle
Russian oligarchs have become a rooted part of London life over the last few years as the capital has become a playground for the uber wealthy.
As deliciously detailed in the Fox programme Meet the Russians, spending £64,000 on shopping sprees in the capital's shops and thousands on one meal or hundreds of thousands of pounds on a bar tab, do a lot to help bolster London's finances.
According to the UK Border Agency, there are around 300,000 Russians currently living in London and around 100 'Tier 1' visas were granted to Russians over the last year in 2013.
'Tier 1' visas are issued to foreigners who have at least £1m to invest in the UK.
Considering 110 Russian billionaires control 35% of the Russia's wealth, this is pretty hefty.

•


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> In quote below Saudi Arabia can be changed to Canada and it will be true


Really? What proportion of GDP is O&G in Canada, Russia and Saudi?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Really? What proportion of GDP is O&G in Canada, Russia and Saudi?


You tell us  Just don't look on only O&G, but generally on Commodities....

First hit in google

As per Global Finance 
GDP - composition by sector 
Canada
•	agriculture: 1.9% 
•	industry: 27.1% 
•	services: 71% (2011 estimate) 

Russia
• agriculture: 4.2% 
• industry: 37% 
• services: 58.9% (2011 estimate) 

Read more: http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-country-reports/193-russia-gdp-country-report.html#ixzz2wXjBvMeD


----------



## andrewf

So what makes you say that you Saudi and Canada are comparable? Canada has a very diversified economy. While resources play a bigger role in Canadian economy than say US/UK, it is a lot smaller than many people seem to think.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> So what makes you say that you Saudi and Canada are comparable? Canada has a very diversified economy. While resources play a bigger role in Canadian economy than say US/UK, it is a lot smaller than many people seem to think.


You didn't understand what i was trying to say....  My point is that author should've compare Russia to Canada and not to Saudia.

P.S.Just came from LCBO and as a support to Russia and its part Crimea, bought Russian Standard and Massandra (_The Crimean oldest winery Massandra has been producing fine wines for more than 110 years and has won international acclaim for their exceptional quality. The winery was built in 1894 – 1897 near Yalta, Crimea. The subtropical air climate of the region and the protective shields of mountain chains create unique conditions for the production of high quality fortified and dessert wines, which combined with the extraordinary architectural merit of the cellars, have earned Massandra a position as one of Ukraine's nationally important sites. In the late 19-th century Prince Lev Golitzin was appointed to manage the production process at the winery. An extremely accomplished winemaker, Golitzin devoted himself to developing the wines that suited the region best, and these wines define Massandra's output today.)_ Everything is true, but https://www.massandra.co.uk/ should change Ukraine to Russia. It's just funny to read that Prince Lev Golitzin had some relation to country called Ukraine


----------



## gibor365

as I expected
_Russia has published a list of 10 US officials and politicians it has banned in response to US sanctions imposed upon the country following the Crimea referendum which Washington considered to be illegal.

The list, issued by the Russian Foreign Ministry, includes House of Representatives speaker John Boehner, senator John McCain and senior adviser to President Barack Obama, Daniel Pfeiffer.

"In response to sanctions imposed by the US Administration on 17 March against a number of Russian officials and deputies of the Federal Assembly as a 'punishment' for support of the referendum in Crimea, the Russian Foreign Ministry announces the introduction of reciprocal sanctions against a similar number of US officials and lawmakers," read the Foreign Ministry statement.

"Treating our country in such a way, as Washington could have already ascertained, is inappropriate and counterproductive.

"There should be no doubt: for every hostile attack, we will respond appropriately."_

Russian official after Washington sanctions said `they proud to be sanctioned`... US guys now repeat the same


----------



## gibor365

_“I simply cannot imagine that we would travel to Sevastopol to visit NATO sailors. Of course, most of them are wonderful guys, but it would be better to have them come and visit us, be our guests, rather than the other way round.”
- Vladimir Putin_
Full Putin`s speech in English
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/crimea-ref...ack-yard-vladimir-putins-address-full-1440996


----------



## gibor365

Interesting article of Jack F. Matlock Jr., ambassador to the U.S.S.R. from 1987 to 1991
The U.S. has treated Russia like a loser since the end of the Cold War.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...868882-aa06-11e3-8599-ce7295b6851c_story.html

_President Bill Clinton supported NATO’s bombing of Serbia without U.N. Security Council approval and the expansion of NATO to include former Warsaw Pact countries. Those moves seemed to violate the understanding that the United States would not take advantage of the Soviet retreat from Eastern Europe. The effect on Russians’ trust in the United States was devastating. In 1991, polls indicated that about 80 percent of Russian citizens had a favorable view of the United States; in 1999, nearly the same percentage had an unfavorable view.

Vladi*mir Putin was elected in 2000 and initially followed a pro-Western orientation. When terrorists attacked the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, he was the first foreign leader to call and offer support. He cooperated with the United States when it invaded Afghanistan, and he voluntarily removed Russian bases from Cuba and Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam. 

What did he get in return? Some meaningless praise from President George W. Bush, who then delivered the diplomatic equivalent of swift kicks to the groin: further expansion of NATO in the Baltics and the Balkans, and plans for American bases there; withdrawal from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty; invasion of Iraq without U.N. Security Council approval; overt participation in the “color revolutions” in Ukraine, Georgia and Kyrgyzstan; and then, probing some of the firmest red lines any Russian leader would draw, talk of taking Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. Americans, heritors of the Monroe Doctrine, should have understood that Russia would be hypersensitive to foreign-dominated military alliances approaching or touching its borders
_


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> as I expected
> _Russia has published a list of 10 US officials and politicians it has banned in response to US sanctions imposed upon the country following the Crimea referendum which Washington considered to be illegal.
> 
> The list, issued by the Russian Foreign Ministry, includes House of Representatives speaker John Boehner, senator John McCain and senior adviser to President Barack Obama, Daniel Pfeiffer.
> 
> "In response to sanctions imposed by the US Administration on 17 March against a number of Russian officials and deputies of the Federal Assembly as a 'punishment' for support of the referendum in Crimea, the Russian Foreign Ministry announces the introduction of reciprocal sanctions against a similar number of US officials and lawmakers," read the Foreign Ministry statement.
> 
> "Treating our country in such a way, as Washington could have already ascertained, is inappropriate and counterproductive.
> 
> "There should be no doubt: for every hostile attack, we will respond appropriately."_
> 
> Russian official after Washington sanctions said `they proud to be sanctioned`... US guys now repeat the same


I'm sure Boehner is very upset that he'll have to cancel his tanning sessions in Siberia. This is just laughable.


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> You didn't understand what i was trying to say....  My point is that author should've compare Russia to Canada and not to Saudia.
> 
> P.S.Just came from LCBO and as a support to Russia and its part Crimea, bought Russian Standard and Massandra (_The Crimean oldest winery Massandra has been producing fine wines for more than 110 years and has won international acclaim for their exceptional quality. The winery was built in 1894 – 1897 near Yalta, Crimea. The subtropical air climate of the region and the protective shields of mountain chains create unique conditions for the production of high quality fortified and dessert wines, which combined with the extraordinary architectural merit of the cellars, have earned Massandra a position as one of Ukraine's nationally important sites. In the late 19-th century Prince Lev Golitzin was appointed to manage the production process at the winery. An extremely accomplished winemaker, Golitzin devoted himself to developing the wines that suited the region best, and these wines define Massandra's output today.)_ Everything is true, but https://www.massandra.co.uk/ should change Ukraine to Russia. It's just funny to read that Prince Lev Golitzin had some relation to country called Ukraine


Why not buy Ontario wines? Cheaper and at least as good?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Why not buy Ontario wines? Cheaper and at least as good?


Cheaper, yes...better - not sure  And I explained that this is my small contribution to Russia and it's part Crimea


----------



## thompsg4416

I've always bought my vodka from Russia but the wines are brutal - Ontario or pretty much anywhere else would be on my list first.

I'm not sure if the sanctions on US officials was a smart political move by Putin - they accomplish nothing. At this point he'd be wise to just sit back and see what happens. He already got the best player in the trade(Crimea) and proved his point. He'd be wise to try and let this blow over now. It's already starting to slip from the headlines - its still in the news but its not the leading story anymore. The more he keeps this alive the more western politicians need to act. I think they want this to blow over as much as he should.


----------



## Longwinston

uh oh

_•Russia's Micex stock has tumbled 2% after the U.S. yesterday threatened sanctions against vital parts of the country's economy - including financial services, oil and gas, metals and mining, and defense - if the military encroached into eastern and southern Ukraine.
•With Russia on the verge of annexing Crimea, the U.S. also imposed asset freezes and visa bans against senior Russian officials and businessmen close to President Vladimir Putin.
•The White House sanctioned Bank Rossiya as well, a move that seems to have prompted Visa (V) and MasterCard (MA) to suspend services for payment transactions for the bank.
•Russia's Deputy Finance Minister Alexei Moiseev has tried to brush it all off, saying that he doesn't see any immediate effect of the sanctions on the nation's financial sector or its creditworthiness. That's despite S&P and Fitch cutting Russia's outlook to negative from stable._


----------



## Toronto.gal

andrewf said:


> I'm sure Boehner is very upset that he'll have to cancel his tanning sessions in Siberia. This is just laughable.


You think? 

I wonder how many bank accounts those 10 US officials and politicians have in Russia.

I can't imagine anyone having been surprised by Putin's response, as since when has Russia shied away from reciprocal as well as unreciprocal responses? 

Remember Sergei Magnitsky?

'The Magnitsky case, moreover, is egregious, well documented and encapsulates the darker side of Putinism.'
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e18677dc-54d8-11e2-a628-00144feab49a.html#axzz2wbD5YUdJ

Using orphans [many who are disabled] to retaliate in any way, is exactly Putin's style, and saying it was done in response to deaths of some of these children in custody of American parents was pure BS. Conveniently left out, were the many successful adoptions. I suppose children never die in Russian orphanages or in custody of Russian parents, adoptive or not. I'm sure the list of deaths is pretty high in the former.


----------



## MoreMiles

http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/n...ussia-stalled-by-sanctions&pubdate=2014-03-21

It is always stupid to hurt your own just to make a point. Businesses are being sacrificed so the politicians can win more votes later?

It's like boycotting Olympics? Have you thought about it from an athlete's perspective? You wake up at 5 am and drive many hours just to train for many years, after all that effort and pain, you are told your Olympic participation is cancelled because your government wants to make a point at your expense. You have to wait another 4 years to have a chance... the problem is, you will be too old to compete with people at their prime age. The whole life of athlete medal dream is over just like that. All that practices you went to since the age of 5 are wasted, too bad so sad for you, your government said. 

So these politicians need to think about their own citizens first!


----------



## GoldStone

MoreMiles said:


> http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/n...ussia-stalled-by-sanctions&pubdate=2014-03-21
> 
> It is always stupid to hurt your own just to make a point. Businesses are being sacrificed so the politicians can win more votes later?
> 
> ...
> 
> So these politicians need to think about their own citizens first!


Bombardier planned to build planes in Russia. How is it good for Canadian citizens? Jobs lost, nothing gained.


----------



## MoreMiles

GoldStone said:


> Bombardier planned to build planes in Russia. How is it good for Canadian citizens? Jobs lost, nothing gained.


Nothing? How about tax revenues to CRA? Every company wants to manufacture things overseas nowadays... including our national pride, Black Berry, they will be made by Foxconn in China soon and not Kitchener Waterloo.


----------



## thompsg4416

"Bombardier planned to build planes in Russia. How is it good for Canadian citizens? Jobs lost, nothing "

I wonder that myself sometimes in general. In this case tho Russia is not a low cost manufacturing country so that wasn't the reason. I don't know anything about it but it would seem logical that the idea was to break into the Russian market.


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> "Bombardier planned to build planes in Russia. How is it good for Canadian citizens? Jobs lost, nothing "
> 
> I wonder that myself sometimes in general. In this case tho Russia is not a low cost manufacturing country so that wasn't the reason. I don't know anything about it but it would seem logical that the idea was to break into the Russian market.


Probably they are looking not only on low cost, but also considering workers skills? Russia for ages produces one of the best in the world planes (like Sukhoi, Tupolev, Mikoyan and so on).
About benefits... if BBD.B benefits, Canada benefits....especially shareholders...


----------



## gibor365

Longwinston said:


> uh oh
> 
> _•
> •The White House sanctioned Bank Rossiya as well, a move that seems to have prompted Visa (V) and MasterCard (MA) to suspend services for payment transactions for the bank.
> ._


Interesting choice... as per Bloomberg "Bank Rossiya, Russia’s 17th biggest lender, according to the U.S.Treasury" ..."Putin said today he didn’t previously have an account at the bank, and plans to open one, according to Interfax." 
It's like Russia will sanction Peoples Trust


----------



## gibor365

looks like right wing Ukraine parlament wants to destroy their own country.... Now they want to cancel visa-free agreement with Russia... It will hit very hard thousands of Ukranian citizens in East Ukraine who works in Russia...


----------



## humble_pie

i was fascinated to read gibor's extract from retired US diplomat & russia expert Jack Matlock's article on the crimea crisis.

so fascinated that i looked up Jack in wikipedia.

oh my! to me, he's the embodiment of a US hero. Swift-thinking, open-minded, superbly well-educated, a scholar, a political analyst, a skilled problem-solver, a fluent speaker of russian & other languages, a career diplomat, neither a centrist democrat nor a left-wing republican, Jack at 84 is still stumping America in retirement, lecturing on international relations after a lifetime heading the State Department soviet & russia desks & serving as US ambassador to russia.

i fell in love with americans like Jack when i worked in the US of A. They're some of the best people in the world. Generous to a fault. So fast & so smart they leave even a cousin canadian breathless. It's true that some - like Jack - enjoy elite jobs. But they're homely, democratic, down to earth & plain-spoken to a fault. Unlike some europeans, they have no trace of Attitude. No Snobbisme.

how well Jack understands the sensitivity of Moscow to military buildup by the US & by NATO, right on russia's borders, over the past 12 years.

in this article, Jack Matlock summarizes US-russian relations since the end of the Cold War. Across his lifetime, as a senior State Department diplomat & eventually as US ambassador to russia, Jack was present, working for understanding, at every single summit conference save one.

i for one think we desperately need more Jack Matlocks, fewer hardliners. Thomps4416 in this thread is speaking some of the same attitudes. We in the west don't need putin or russia as friends. We only need to get onto the same page, so that issues far bigger than crimea can be treated with some progress. Issues like syria & iran.

i'm posting the link to Jack's article in the washington post again, because this article is seminal, pivotal. I'd be interested in hearing from the hardliners how they find my hero.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...868882-aa06-11e3-8599-ce7295b6851c_story.html


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> looks like right wing Ukraine parlament wants to destroy their own country.... Now they want to cancel visa-free agreement with Russia... It will hit very hard thousands of Ukranian citizens in East Ukraine who works in Russia...


I don't think you can blame them. Russia just illegally (in their eyes, at least) annexed part of their territory. I don't think you can expect them to maintain normal relations with Russia after that.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> I don't think you can blame them. Russia just illegally (in their eyes, at least) annexed part of their territory. I don't think you can expect them to maintain normal relations with Russia after that.


But they will punish not Russia (for Russians no sense to work in uktaine, like for Californian in Mexico), but their own citizens...even Yats was against it (at least that what he wote in twitter).... the only result they will achieve, full uprising of eastern ukranian cities...

Than really, the mass migration of Russian speaking Ukranians to Russia is possible....and who will replace tham in Ukraine? Farmers and banderovzy?!


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> so fascinated that i looked up Jack in wikipedia.


I liked to read his article because he understands Russian mentality and he's sober, no-cliche person ... too bad Obama doesn't have advisors like Jack Matlock... and have many of them like idiot McCain


----------



## GoldStone

*Where the Fascists Are*



> The claim that last month’s democratic revolution in Ukraine was actually driven by ultra-right extremists, fascists, or even “neo-Nazis” has been a staple of Kremlin propaganda. It is also echoed by Western pundits who think that Vladimir Putin is getting a bum rap and the United States is backing the bad guys in this conflict. *It is true that far-right nationalists are a troubling, though by no means dominant, presence on Ukraine’s political scene* and a potential problem for the new leadership’s quest for European integration. But *the cries of “fascism” from Moscow and its apologists are breathtakingly hypocritical, considering the Putin regime’s entanglement with far-right, ultranationalist and, yes, fascist elements at home and abroad.*


----------



## andrewf

Are you suggesting Ukraine should behave like nothing happened? I really don't think that is realistic. If France annexed Quebec against Canada's wishes, even if Quebec went willingly, I don't think Canada and France would have normal relations for quite some time afterwards.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Are you suggesting Ukraine should behave like nothing happened? I really don't think that is realistic. If France annexed Quebec against Canada's wishes, even if Quebec went willingly, I don't think Canada and France would have normal relations for quite some time afterwards.


Don't think you can compare here


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> *Where the Fascists Are*


In the same atricle "_Another alarming factor is the nationalist party Svoboda (“Freedom”), whose head, 45-year-old Oleg Tyahnibok, has a history of anti-Semitic and racist comments—though he has tried to reinvent himself as a moderate. Svoboda has about 8 percent of the seats in Ukraine’s parliament; thanks to the deal brokered by Germany and France before Yanukovych’s resignation, it also holds four of the twenty posts in the interim government, including that of Minister of Defense
_ Nice! Minister of Defence is neo-nazi 
Also author nicely interpret Aksyonov comment , like he said that in Uranian government sitting Jews and Neo-Nazis


----------



## Longwinston

MoreMiles said:


> Nothing? How about tax revenues to CRA? Every company wants to manufacture things overseas nowadays... including our national pride, Black Berry, they will be made by Foxconn in China soon and not Kitchener Waterloo.


Blackberry is our national pride? Sorry, but that's just... Odd.


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. Svoboda has about 8 percent of the seats in Ukraine’s parliament
> 2. Nice! Minister of Defence is neo-nazi


1. To put it in actual numbers, the popular vote was over 2 million, or 10.44% per 2012 election. What do you reckon the number will be next May?
2. Absurd.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424052702304756104579449491092134038.html


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Interesting choice... as per Bloomberg "Bank Rossiya, Russia’s 17th biggest lender, according to the U.S.Treasury" ..."Putin said today he didn’t previously have an account at the bank, and plans to open one, according to Interfax."


As per usual, you swallowed his propaganda hook, line and sinker. 



gibor said:


> It's like Russia will sanction Peoples Trust


No, it's not like that at all. Bank Rossiya is a small, secretive bank. It has very close ties to Putin's mafia.

Links with Putin made Bank Rossiya prime US sanctions target

Bank Rossiya, Kremlin's favoured bank, to be 'frozen out of the dollar'


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. To put it in actual numbers, the popular vote was over 2 million, or 10.44% per 2012 election. What do you reckon the number will be next May?
> 2. Absurd.
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424052702304756104579449491092134038.html


imho Svoboda will get more %.
What absurd?

- nor going to pay to read Washington propoganda 
Yesterday on TV I watched documentary how those thugs from ultra right hit the head of Ukranian TV... it`s nasty....


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> As per usual, you swallowed his propaganda hook, line and sinker.
> 
> 
> No, it's not like that at all. Bank Rossiya is a small, secretive bank. It has very close ties to Putin's mafia.
> 
> Links with Putin made Bank Rossiya prime US sanctions target
> 
> Bank Rossiya, Kremlin's favoured bank, to be 'frozen out of the dollar'


What hook?! I posted quote from Bloomberg....did I say if I believe it or not ?! Maybe true , maybe not....

And sure, if the Guardian said so , it`s definetely should be true  Do you think banks posting on the Web lists of account holders  Do you know in what bank Harper has his account?!

Oh, I see, The Guardian said _US says _, yeah, US knows everything


----------



## GoldStone

I posted the links to Financial Times and Guardian. Google "Bank Rossiya Putin" if you want other sources. You will get tons of hits.

As to what US knows, I can assure you they have records of Bank Rossiya transactions that leave Russia.


----------



## MoreMiles

Longwinston said:


> Blackberry is our national pride? Sorry, but that's just... Odd.


It's a Canadian phone chosen to be used by the American president. So it is like Canadarm in NASA, our national pride! Lol

Coming back to the topic, is it time to buy RSX yet? Or it's even too late now?


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> What absurd?


The appointment of the neo-Nazi for Defense Minister, wasn't that absurd rather than comical? And what about the appt. of Deputy PM? 

No propaganda tovaritch. :tongue-new:


----------



## gibor365

MoreMiles said:


> It's a Canadian phone chosen to be used by the American president. So it is like Canadarm in NASA, our national pride! Lol
> 
> Coming back to the topic, is it time to buy RSX yet? Or it's even too late now?


not too late


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> The appointment of the neo-Nazi for Defense Minister, wasn't that absurd rather than comical? And what about the appt. of Deputy PM?
> 
> No propaganda tovaritch. :tongue-new:


Ukraine Transition Government: Neo-Nazis in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education,
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...ecurity-economy-justice-and-education/5371539

No surprise that Crimea initiated referendum


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> I posted the links to Financial Times and Guardian. Google "Bank Rossiya Putin" if you want other sources. You will get tons of hits.
> 
> As to what US knows, I can assure you they have records of Bank Rossiya transactions that leave Russia.


I doubt it ... looks like US just didn`t like name Банк Россия


Nevertheless, anyone seriouly thinking that because of this Russia will give up Crimea?!


----------



## Longwinston

Things not looking good for poor ol Vlad.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...wittersf&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

This much damage without really even trying. Russia is a house of cards.


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Ukraine Transition Government: Neo-Nazis in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education,
> http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...ecurity-economy-justice-and-education/5371539


The author, Greg Rose, is a retired University of Oregon professor, and a member of the Communist Party USA.

Is it the best source you have, gibor? Really? Communist Party USA? ha ha ha. I bet he used to be on KGB payroll.


ADDED: globalreasearch.ca looks like a clone of rt.com. A small sample of recent articles:

Israel Backs Fascist Putsch, Supports neo-Nazi anti-Semitic Forces in Ukraine

Anti-Russian Media Wars

Anti-Russia Propaganda and the Fabrication of a New Pro-War Consensus

Wall Street Dirty Tricks: Visa, Mastercard Block US-sanctioned Russian Banks

yada, yada, yada


----------



## gibor365

Gold, it doesn`t matter who wrote article , because it`s a fact! 7 ministers in this ùnselected goverment are neo Nazis...
Very good article in Globe and Mail

_For his own political reasons, the Canadian PM will continue his apparently unconditional embrace of Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk’s unelected government. But in private, we must hope, he will tell Yatsenyuk that it is intolerable and unacceptable that his government contains seven ministers connected to the radical right, including members of the extremist Svoboda Party as deputy prime minister and ministers of defence, agriculture and ecology._

_But Svoboda is not the only concern that Mr. Harper must raise. Barely six months ago, the World Jewish Congress (WJC) urged Ukrainian clergy to refrain from attending neo-Nazi events. The letter by WJC President Ronald Lauder to the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Filaret, was reported by the JTA. Lauder pointed to “a recent ceremony near Lviv marking the 70th anniversary of the creation of the Galician division of the Waffen SS….I was horrified to see photographs … of young Ukrainians wearing the dreaded SS uniform with swastikas clearly visible on their helmets as they carried the caskets of members of this Nazi unit, lowered them into their new graves, and fired gun salutes in their honour. I was especially troubled by the participation in this ceremony of a priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church that appeared to give a religious legitimacy to the rehabilitation of the SS.” Perhaps Mr. Harper’s mysterious Office of Religious Freedom could investigate.

To complete the picture, WJC President Lauder noted that “Oleg Pankevich, a lawmaker for the extreme-right Svoboda party, also took part in the reburial ceremony.”_

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...omfortable-truths-in-ukraine/article17617024/

Maybe Gerald Kaplan also communist or anarchist, I don`t care... I completely share his view.... I don`t know whare are you from....but I know who are those guys


----------



## GoldStone

Longwinston said:


> Things not looking good for poor ol Vlad.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...wittersf&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
> 
> This much damage without really even trying. Russia is a house of cards.


:encouragement:


----------



## gibor365

Completely agree with comment to Globe and Mail article I gave a link
_They cannot separate themselves from Svoboda. Svoboda is what brought the current Ukrainian government to power. 

Yatsenyuk would still be an unknown economist now if Svoboda boys in Maidan hadn't started throwing Molotov cocktails at riot police. 

Not to defend Svoboda or anything.. just stating a fact._


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> :encouragement:


Oh, yeah.... _The author serves on the International Academic Advisory Board of the Kiev School of Economics. The views are those of the author and not the school._

another Svoboda member?!

_Further in Brussels, the European Union leaders renewed their call for hundreds of OSCE observers to spread out throughout Ukraine to monitor cases of outside (Russian) intervention and to investigate Putin’s claims of widespread human rights abuses against Russian speakers. If Russia fails to agree, the European Union announced it will send its own observers._ and how Russia can prevent it? . Go to Ukraine , no problem.....but Crimea is not Ukraine any more 
_In London, The Telegraph reports Prime Minister David Cameron is facing calls, under growing parliamentary support, to take action against Putin-friendly oligarchs Roman Abramovich, owner of Chelsea FC, and Alisher Usmanov, a major shareholder in Arsenal FC. Both have major property holdings in the UK and the United States._ Really! Facing calls?! From whom! Gold, did you call?! Give Cameron do it.... Chelsea and Arsenal fans will destroy half of the London 

_In Germany, the mass circulation newspaper, Bild , published its list of six sanctions that would hurt Russia the most. Included in the list were moving the 2018 Football WM from Russia, excluding Russia from the 2014 Eurovision song contest, removing the Gazprom logo from Schalke 04 uniforms, and halting Aeroflot’s 52 daily flights into Germany for wealthy Russian shoppers. As a final sanction, Bild called for Germany to forego purchases of Russian natural gas entirely because of full storage facilities and a plan to import gas from Norway._ Is it humor or what

and What is it Bild * According to Der Spiegel, Bild is a newspaper that flies just under the nonsense threshold of American and British tabloids. For the German desperate, it is a daily dose of high-resolution soft porn *
Gold, I was thinking better about you ¸


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> Gold, it doesn`t matter who wrote article , because it`s a fact! 7 ministers in this ùnselected goverment are neo Nazis...


I don't deny the fact and I'm just as concerned as you are. Let's wait and see if they remain in government after the May elections. According to Where the Fascists Are: _"The good news, as historian Timothy Snyder points out in The New Republic, is that current polls show Svoboda getting 2 or 3 percent of the vote in May’s presidential election."_




gibor said:


> I know who are those guys


Good. Now take a look at Putin's government. Do you know those guys? Putin's circle is full of far right nationalists. Rogozin and Glaziev are two prime examples. Read carefully the second half of Where the Fascists Are.


----------



## GoldStone

gibor said:


> _Further in Brussels, the European Union leaders renewed their call for hundreds of OSCE observers to spread out throughout Ukraine to monitor cases of outside (Russian) intervention and to investigate Putin’s claims of widespread human rights abuses against Russian speakers. If Russia fails to agree, the European Union announced it will send its own observers._
> 
> and how Russia can prevent it? . Go to Ukraine , no problem.....but Crimea is not Ukraine any more


Russia is a permanent member of OSCE and has a veto power. It blocked OSCE observers' mission to Ukraine.


----------



## andrewf

Longwinston said:


> Things not looking good for poor ol Vlad.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...wittersf&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
> 
> This much damage without really even trying. Russia is a house of cards.


I think it's the right approach. Pricking the Russian propaganda bubble that the West is cowering in fear. In a sanctions battle between Russia and the West, Russia loses. Oil will not save you. Look at Iran.


----------



## thompsg4416

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. To put it in actual numbers, the popular vote was over 2 million, or 10.44% per 2012 election. What do you reckon the number will be next May?
> 2. Absurd.
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424052702304756104579449491092134038.html


Tgal you raise a valid point - 10% is a rather small portion of the population. Hardly representative of a country IMHO. Yet we in the west are happy to support Ukrainian leader who represents "our side" who managed a measly 7% of the vote in the last election. Its pretty neat how both sides can slice and dice to fit their needs and everyone stands in line to lap it up.


Also to deny the forces in the far right had nothing to do with the current gov is simply not true. Its a big problem for the current government and the west - although neither the west or the western media are choosing to discuss it very loud in public at the moment. A few western media have reported on it. 

HP - I was reading an article by Mark McKinnon this morning in the G&M. I don't always agree with his assessments but he has a depth of knowledge and experience in the region and it shows in his reporting. As someone who has also studieded the region I respect his opinion - it also raises the point of just how poor i feel the media coverage has been. I've read so many articles written by journalists who obviously don't have that background and it shows in thier reporting. I'm able to see this only because of my prior knowledge of the region. Makes me wonder what I've been reading on other leading stories of which I know nothing about.
I haven't had a chance to read this Jack fellow but I'll certainly give him a look later today.


----------



## thompsg4416

andrewf said:


> I think it's the right approach. Pricking the Russian propaganda bubble that the West is cowering in fear. In a sanctions battle between Russia and the West, Russia loses. Oil will not save you. Look at Iran.


They may ultimately loose but in reality we all loose especially Europe who is barely squeaking through a recovery as it is. This is something they can hardly afford and I think Putin took this into account. I personally would not draw too many comparisons between Russia and Iran economy wise. Sure they both sell oil but their size and integration with other western countries is not even close to being on the same level. Russia has an economy bigger then Canada and is very ntegrated with Europe - especially Germany one of the only countries in the EU that isn't struggling right now. The EU without a strong Germany is a weak EU.

Its easy for us especially in Canada(look and listen to harper) to say we should be doing this and that but the reality is we have almost nothing to lose. On a very small scale look at manitoba (or was it sask?). They are talking about banning Russian spirits in the province but are hesitant as they have some companies who sell agriculture equipment to Russia and are afraid to lose the business. I believe its only worth a measly 21 million. Add a few zeros on the end of that and you see he predicament the EU is in. ***** some of the details in that example maybe off, I'm on mobile and can't look up the article. It was in the G&M - I think it was the one about world grain prices.


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> . The EU without a strong Germany is a weak EU.
> 
> .


It`s not week EU....it`s F U  
thompson, take a look at Gerald Kaplan`s from G&M, link above....

If you compare Russia to Iran, compare US to Iraq


----------



## andrewf

Thomps, I don't think the EU will or should cut off energy imports from Russia, but all the other sanctions make sense. Russia may threaten to retaliate but cutting exports, but that is what you call shooting yourself in the foot. Russia needs the export revenue, especially once Putin and friends ill gotten gains are frozen in the West.


----------



## gibor365

_The current government of Ukraine: 

Deputy prime minister: Svoboda 
Minister of Defence: Svoboda 
Prosecutor-General: Svoboda 
Minister of National Security: Svoboda 
Ministers of Education, Ecology, Agriculture: Svoboda, Svoboda, Svoboda. 

Not bad for a party that polled less than 10% of the vote in the 2012 elections. _


----------



## gibor365

The Guardian

_Markov says Putin laid down several conditions to western leaders which he saw as a compromise solution but they viewed as unwarranted meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. The conditions included ensuring that Ukraine's interim government involved a coalition of all political forces, including Yanukovych's Party of Regions, disbanding all armed revolutionary factions and making Russian an official state language.

"If this had happened, Crimea would still be part of Ukraine," says 

Markov._

_Since the announcement, Russians have rushed billions of dollars back to Mother Russia and other perceived safe havens (this includes what appears to have been the transfer last week of some or all of Russia’s over $100 billion holdings in U.S. Treasuries at the Federal Reserve). _


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> *1.* liked to read his article because *he understands Russian mentality....*
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...868882-aa06-11e3-8599-ce7295b6851c_story.html
> 
> *2. *The conditions included ensuring that Ukraine's interim government involved a coalition of all political forces, including Yanukovych's Party of Regions, disbanding all armed revolutionary factions and making Russian an official state language. *"If this had happened, Crimea would still be part of Ukraine," says *
> 
> *3. *The current government of Ukraine: Deputy prime minister/Minister of Defence/Prosecutor-General/Minister of National Security/Education, Ecology, Agriculture: *Svoboda. Not bad for a party that polled less than 10% of the vote in the 2012* elections.


*1.* For sure Mr. Matlock has the right background/knowledge/mentality/understanding better than most; as he says himself, he's been fascinated with Russia for decades [if not obsessed].

A good article, however, I was puzzled by some unnecessary comments, ie:

*'When terrorists attacked the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, he [Putin] was the first foreign leader to call and offer support' *- so did many others, including Cuba. A country did not need to have been fighting a war of their own as Russia was, to have supported the position of the US. Even at times of natural disasters, countries have most times been able to put hostilities aside. 

*'Even before Putin became Russia's President in early 2000, and long before the Twin Towers fell, he had invoked the idea of a war against global terrorism to justify Russia's war in Chechnya.'*
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2093529,00.html 

'*The Magnitsky Act, which singled out Russia for human rights violations as if there were none of comparable gravity elsewhere'* - but that's not how it started; the US did not single out Russia for just human right violations that were already known to the world. In fact, it was more complicated, as it involved corruption, theft, organized crime, etc.
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/man-mission-bill-browder-vs-kremlin

*2.* I doubt that Putin had been that flexible. He wanted Crimea all along, and was just waiting for the precise moment to take it. Problem was, that those who should have been alert, were asleep at the wheel.

*3.* Indeed their presence in key government positions at the national level is worrisome. 

The share of the vote has been consistently increasing going from .36% to .76%, and latest in 2012 to 10.44% [more than 2 million votes in 2012 comparing to < 200,000 in 07], so not exactly an insignificant increase by any means. Important to note also, that this so called free & patriotic party, came 2nd in Kyev, so you're right that at the very least, there should be concern that they might gain even more strength in May; likely no swan song for Svoboda. 

It remains to be seen what voters will do, but how do they typically vote when they feel disillusioned?


----------



## humble_pie

a main point of jack matlock's article was the gradual NATO buildup in eastern europe over the years since 9/11. The seasoned US diplomat is easily able to see how this military spy frontier right on the russian border has been perceived as a threat by Moscow.

thomps4416 has also cited a recent article by the Globe's veteran foreign affairs correspondent Mark McKinnon. Here also we see the persistent increments in western military surveillance & containment as provocations to Moscow.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...have-to-be-this-way/article17384414/?page=all

finally here is Jane's, formerly Jane's Fighting Ships, just a week ago, on the new NATO aerial spy missions now flying over Poland & Romania.

according to Jane's, the NATO AWACs flying over Romania can officially see & detect everything going on in western ukraine plus crimea. However it's believed that the true range of these radarships is far greater than what is formally revealed & likely includes all of ukraine, possibly eastern russia itself.

in addition, the russians have said they recently downed a US spy drone in crimea, so one has to wonder whether NATO is also deploying spy drones at this point in time.

http://www.janes.com/article/35240/nato-e-3-awacs-to-monitor-ukraine-airspace

there isn't any parallel that could contain & spy on the US of A, but imagine how Washington would be reacting if there were. Imagine a giant & hostile military superpower hanging night & day, right on the US border, year after year after year. Americans would be out of their skulls at the provocation.

i'm in favour of canada joining the sanctions now but i think the heated rhetoric coming out of ottawa is just stoking the fires. 

whatever happened to canada's supposed role as a peacekeeper nation? it was not so long ago that Jean Chretien, speaking as prime minister while on an official visit to Chicago, announced to everyone's surprise that canada would *not* join the US of A in invading Iraq.

it's that separate, reasonable, how-we-going-to-solve-this-problem canadian voice that i'm looking for. The Mark McKinnon voice. The Jack Matlock voice.


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> whatever happened to canada's supposed role as a peacekeeper nation?


A decade old article, but still......

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/sunil-ram/article1139999/


----------



## gibor365

_but imagine how Washington would be reacting if there were. Imagine a giant & hostile military superpower hanging night & day, right on the US border, year after year after year. Americans would be out of their skulls at the provocation.
_ Yes, I can imagine what will be Washington reaction if Russia does the same from Cuba or Venezuela


----------



## thompsg4416

humble_pie said:


> a main point of jack matlock's article was the gradual NATO buildup in eastern europe over the years since 9/11. The seasoned US diplomat is easily able to see how this military spy frontier right on the russian border has been perceived as a threat by Moscow.
> 
> thomps4416 has also cited a recent article by the Globe's veteran foreign affairs correspondent Mark McKinnon. Here also we see the persistent increments in western military surveillance & containment as provocations to Moscow.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...have-to-be-this-way/article17384414/?page=all
> 
> finally here is Jane's, formerly Jane's Fighting Ships, just a week ago, on the new NATO aerial spy missions now flying over Poland & Romania.
> 
> according to Jane's, the NATO AWACs flying over Romania can officially see & detect everything going on in western ukraine plus crimea. However it's believed that the true range of these radarships is far greater than what is formally revealed & likely includes all of ukraine, possibly eastern russia itself.
> 
> in addition, the russians have said they recently downed a US spy drone in crimea, so one has to wonder whether NATO is also deploying spy drones at this point in time.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/35240/nato-e-3-awacs-to-monitor-ukraine-airspace
> 
> there isn't any parallel that could contain & spy on the US of A, but imagine how Washington would be reacting if there were. Imagine a giant & hostile military superpower hanging night & day, right on the US border, year after year after year. Americans would be out of their skulls at the provocation.
> 
> i'm in favour of canada joining the sanctions now but i think the heated rhetoric coming out of ottawa is just stoking the fires.
> 
> whatever happened to canada's supposed role as a peacekeeper nation? it was not so long ago that Jean Chretien, speaking as prime minister while on an official visit to Chicago, announced to everyone's surprise that canada would *not* join the US of A in invading Iraq.
> 
> it's that separate, reasonable, how-we-going-to-solve-this-problem canadian voice that i'm looking for. The Mark McKinnon voice. The Jack Matlock voice.


+1


----------



## humble_pie

2 tiny signs of reason & accommodation on both sides, let's hope they will not be buried in the noise.

the NY Times says:



> The acting government in Kiev has also been slow to reach out to Russian speakers and specifically to the East. The interim prime minister, Arseniy P. Yatsenyuk, did give a speech in Russian last week offering broad autonomy to Ukraine’s eastern regions, which are vital to the country’s weak economy, even with rundown coal mines and outmoded factories.



the Times also says:



> Even as Russian forces were storming two bases in Crimea on Saturday, though, the Kremlin agreed to allow monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to start a six-month mission in Ukraine — though not in Crimea. The move seemed intended to ease fears that Russian forces would push into eastern or southern Ukraine.
> 
> In Berlin on Monday, the government spokesman Steffen Seibert said Mr. Putin had confirmed in a conversation with Chancellor Angela Merkel on Sunday that the mission to Ukraine was “a welcome step.”



mme Merkel has been working steadily & quietly for the admission of OSCE monitors to ukraine & crimea ever since the russian takeover of crimea commenced. It's a theme of hers, often buried deep inside news articles.

most of the time - although not always - putin has agreed with her. This seems to confirm that the rest of ukraine is at least momentarily safe from russian invasion. The presence of working OSCE monitors inside the ukraine would help to calm a tinderbox sitiuation.

meanwhile, that speech in russian promising greater autonomy to eastern ukraine from kiev prime minister Yatsenyuk is the first gesture of conciliation i've ever heard him make.

these are the tiny indicators showing where calming efforts could focus. It's so unfortunate that the public jawboning seems to be getting louder.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/world/europe/obama-russia-crimea.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0


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## Homerhomer

meanwhile in duma

_The Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Warsaw has received an official letter from the deputy chairman of the Russian Parliament Vladimir Zhirinovsky with a proposal to divide the Ukraine._

and many wonder if this could have been issued without Putin's permission.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-ukraine-crisis-partition-letter-idUSBREA2N0O220140324


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## andrewf

gibor said:


> _but imagine how Washington would be reacting if there were. Imagine a giant & hostile military superpower hanging night & day, right on the US border, year after year after year. Americans would be out of their skulls at the provocation.
> _ Yes, I can imagine what will be Washington reaction if Russia does the same from Cuba or Venezuela


Doesn't Russia do this on the Alaskan border?


----------



## m3s

humble_pie said:


> finally here is Jane's, formerly Jane's Fighting Ships, just a week ago, on the new NATO aerial spy missions now flying over Poland & Romania.
> 
> according to Jane's, the NATO AWACs flying over Romania can officially see & detect everything going on in western ukraine plus crimea. However it's believed that the true range of these radarships is far greater than what is formally revealed & likely includes all of ukraine, possibly eastern russia itself.
> 
> in addition, the russians have said they recently downed a US spy drone in crimea, so one has to wonder whether NATO is also deploying spy drones at this point in time.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/35240/nato-e-3-awacs-to-monitor-ukraine-airspace


A key point of that article is that NATO is not flying over international waters, which could be interpreted as an "escalatory move" Russia however flies strategic bombers towards Canada until they are escorted away by armed CF-18s.. and likewise around Scandinavia all the time, randomly around the pacific ocean as well. Nobody seems alarmed by this though.. it seems to be accepted as realistic training.. Actually, since 9/11 we train officially with Russia for air policing etc.

NATO training flights were basically concentrated to Romania/Poland. Romania joined NATO AWACS in 2011, Poland 2007. Romania is separated by distance and diplomatic hurtles of neutral countries such as Swiss/Austria/Slovakia so we don't go there often. Canada has withdrawn from NATO AWACS because of our distance, so it's a political opportunity to show up for a new member like Romania. AWACS is the equivalent of an unarmed observer, but like you point out it can see further than Crimea.

The exact range of any military equipment is always guarded, but you can get pretty good idea. Being in the sky gives you a better vantage point than being on the ground. AWACS has a unique capability of beyond-the-horizon but even wikipedia will tell you this is mainly for tracking ships on the ocean beyond the physical curvature of the Earth. It won't miraculously see through the Caucasus mountains beyond Sochi. The real concern is to monitor what is being mobilized towards NATO, and AWACS was designed for that.



gibor said:


> Yes, I can imagine what will be Washington reaction if Russia does the same from Cuba or Venezuela


Russia is known to fly military aircraft to/from both. I've monitored supersonic bombers transiting down the Atlantic and the untrained eye could think they were headed straight for NYC. Considering that NATO is now controlling the MiGs in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc probably does not sit well with Putin, but I don't think it has anything to do with this. Drones are another thing and what US does with drones is entirely separate from what Canada or NATO does with drones. Canadians are certainly regulated on what can be monitored and when.

A lot of the the flak Putin is taking from the western media though reeks of uneducated bias and sensationalism. If Québec were to separate and 20 years later the English speakers were rioting in western Montreal, we'd probably do something for them as well. A lot of Ukrainian and Russian soldiers worked side by side in the old days. French Canadian and English soldiers also work side by side but there could also be national tensions. There's better coverage on YouTube than CNN or CBC.


----------



## humble_pie

Homerhomer said:


> meanwhile in duma
> 
> _The Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Warsaw has received an official letter from the deputy chairman of the Russian Parliament Vladimir Zhirinovsky with a proposal to divide the Ukraine._
> 
> and many wonder if this could have been issued without Putin's permission.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-ukraine-crisis-partition-letter-idUSBREA2N0O220140324




i don't see from this article that "many" are wondering if zhirinovsky is the voice of putin at all.

i see only one remark suggesting that this is the case. The remark was made by sergei sovolev, head of ultra-rightwing fatherland party in ukraine & himself frequently branded as one of the Kiev takeover neo-nazis.

the misleading word "many" appears to be homer's elaboration.

reuters' story got it straight. Let's not distort the legitimate journos.

as for zhirinovsky, he's a clown. He also vehemently opposes one of the russian vowels, kissing on the lips, not disinfecting the skin before an embrace, as well as the continued existence of five central russian republics.

would smart vladimir putin ever choose to speak through lame jokester vladimir zhirinovsky? i don't think so ...


http://www.rferl.org/content/zhironovsky-russian-banning-letter/25294499.html
.


----------



## humble_pie

thankx m3s. The Jane's article was indeed very clear that all AWACs missions are being flown 100% legitimately over countries that are NATO members & are welcoming NATO protection.

Jane's also specified that there are no flights over the Black Sea due to the sensitivity of the situation ... but hey i put in the link, i couldn't repeat every paragraph in the entire article in my post, right?

personally - speaking for myself - i've seen at least one russian crackpot being quoted in the media as saying an AWAC or 2 should be shot down. I for one get severely distressed by loss of life & such a thought totally percolates me, especially when i know who might be on board. Thank goodness those planes are said to fly high.

what i keep hoping to see in the situation is people - canadian leaders especially - going in the direction of the few & tiny positive initiatives that exist. I mentioned 2 upthread. All the inflammatory rhetoric that's flying around instead is scary.

i keep hoping that chancellor merkel will have an effect on the US president.

canada should also beef up friendly relations with important nations that are still neutral over the ukraine/east european situation, imho. India, for instance. Canada has historically had good relations with india, i don't know the current state of canada/india bilateral relations but Putin said he's counting upon india to at least listen to him, he mentioned india with approval in his recent Kremlin speech.

i for one believe that neutral countries like india could exert influence & suasion upon the russian leader, causing him to step back from expansionist plans. Canada could & should explore that angle, imho.

i suppose it might help, theoretically speaking, if the AWACs were to stop flying over roumania. But as a matter of fact, if i were NATO supremo commando philip breedlove, i'd continue the AWACs flights. How else is the west going to find out what's happening. As m3 says, the planes are unarmed observers.




m3s said:


> A lot of the the flak Putin is taking from the western media though reeks of uneducated bias and sensationalism.


so sorry, cannot agree with this. The bias, sensationalism, scolding, preaching, jerking of knees & bleating of sheep are coming from western leaders, with a few exceptions, not from the media.

all the media are doing is their usual. They are accurately reporting who's saying what & who's doing which & with whom. If a person takes the trouble to read carefully, one can detect the major media - the leading newspapers in every country - bending over backwards, especially during this crisis, to report all sides to every angle.


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## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> Thank goodness those planes are said to fly high.


Apparently the ceiling for an AWACS is 35,000 ft................which is high, but in 1960 Gary Powers' U-2, which had a ceiling of 70,000 ft, was still shot down*........and technology has come a long way in 54 years.


(* Whether at the max height or not, I don't know.)


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## andrewf

I don't think Russia would have a hard time shooting down anything near their airspace.

hp, I don't think you'll see Canada play a conciliatory role here. Harper has lined up with Obama in calling for punitive sanctions. 

Unfortunately, it seems like Putin is laying the groundwork to destabilize/invade other parts of eastern Ukraine. I'm not sure the West has the will to prevent this, especially after essentially capitulating over Crimea.


----------



## Nemo2

http://20committee.com/2014/03/07/understanding-the-crimea-crisis/



> Barack Obama is the first American president Moscow has felt they could pull this off against. This is painful to say, not least because this author – like many foreign policy watchers – was optimistic at the start that President Obama could undo the massive harm done to America’s international reputation by George W. Bush. Yet Moscow has taken a different view of all this from the outset, seeing weakness where others saw lawyerly consideration and American-style optimism.
> 
> This has been plain to see for some time. While Western Europe was celebrating Obama as something vaguely divine – his pre-victory speech at Berlin’s Brandenburg Gate and the award of the Nobel Peace Prize for having done nothing save not being President Bush, are fated to go down as two of the strangest happenings in modern foreign affairs – Russia was much less impressed. When Obama was first elected, Moscow pundits, including respected, level-headed ones, spoke as if America had lost its collective mind. Putin’s contempt for Obama has never been well disguised, and has only become more obvious with time, and many average Russians feel the same. Russian, like many Slavic languages, revels in countless put-downs implying weakness and effeminacy, and if you spend any time among Russians, even highly educated ones, you will hear the full range of them of them used to describe President Obama – lately, often with a laugh.







> .......since all important foreign policy decisions are being made by a few, often young, staffers in the White House, outside the normal State Department chain.
> 
> A related factor here surely is that the United States has groomed a whole generation of foreign policy wonks-in-training who lack any real understanding of how the world actually works. These impressive-on-paper people – let it be noted they are legion in both parties – the under-45′s who are always graduates of the right schools and first-rate players of The Game in Washington, DC (which really comes down to cultivating the right mentors who will guide you to the proper think-tank until your party returns to power), are no match for the stone-cold killers of the Kremlin, led by the Chekist-in-Chief Putin. They have grown up in a world where unipolar American power has never been challenged, and while they can utter pleasant, Davos-ready platitudes about the whole range of bien pensant issues – global warming, emerging trends in micro-finance, gender matters on the Subcontinent, et al – they have quite literally nothing to say when old-school conventional threats emerge and enemies – yes, enemies: not rivals or merely misunderstood would-be partners – emerge from the darkness with conquest and killing on their minds.
> 
> In the present-day West, it’s commonplace to have a laugh at Vladimir Putin’s weirdly macho (and more than a little homoerotic) posturings, and I’ve done it too – how not, among the panoply of martial arts, bears, and countless shirtless adventures before the cameras? Yet in Russia they love this stuff, without a laugh-track. They are not yet as post-modern as we are, and they find reassurance in an old-school leader who talks about – and more importantly demonstrates – strength in a dangerous world. The first decade of the post-Soviet era was an economic, political, and social catastrophe for Russia, and Putin, whatever his faults, has been a pleasant change in the eyes of most Russians, which is why they back him through thick and thin. The Putin era will end someday, probably with Russia more isolated from the world than ever, but that coda may be some difficult decades off.


----------



## gibor365

Homerhomer said:


> meanwhile in duma
> 
> _The Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Warsaw has received an official letter from the deputy chairman of the Russian Parliament Vladimir Zhirinovsky with a proposal to divide the Ukraine._
> 
> and many wonder if this could have been issued without Putin's permission.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-ukraine-crisis-partition-letter-idUSBREA2N0O220140324


You need to read more who is Zhirinovskky  He's known to every one as "clown" and nobody takes him seriously...


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## andrewf

I think it's overly optimistic to think Putin will stick around for decades. The next time oil prices decline, Russia is going to become very difficult to govern. Given the surge in production from unconventional sources, it might not be far off, either.


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> unconventional sources, it might not be far off, either.


Nukes 

and what than Canada going to do? Russia at least can sell weapon ....


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## Homerhomer

gibor said:


> You need to read more who is Zhirinovskky  He's known to every one as "clown" and nobody takes him seriously...


He is a joke and needs psychiatric treatment, and should not be anything in Russian parliament, but is.... anyway this issue was widely discussed in some of the eastern European media over the weekend.

Anyway just spoke to one of my neighbours who is Ukrainian with older mother living in Crimea, and apparently at the moment not permitted to go and see her.. as you can imagine he would strongly disagree with anything you are trying to convey here, but since you are so set in your ways there is no point to discuss it ;-)


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## gibor365

There are some people that like `clowns`` and they vote for him.... this is democracy....
Actually, jusy on Friday I was joking with one Polish guy about the same... (split Ukraine)... 

Tell your neighbor to pay to get Russian visa and he can go.... I also should pay to get visa as I don`t hape Russian citizenship or ... pay for new Israeli passport (no visa needed for Israeli citizens)


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> Nukes
> 
> and what than Canada going to do? Russia at least can sell weapon ....


Alberta will feel some pain, but Canada as a whole is not that dependent on oil and gas. CAD would fall and manufacturing/services exports would rise. Russia is a lot more dependent on O&G than Canada. Russia can sell weapons to North Korea, Iran, Syria, and other murderous regimes, but Canada makes millions of cars that other countries are willing to buy, etc.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf, are you serious that several US factories on Canadian territory will keep Canda in good share?! imho, US will slowly move their factories out of Canada to countries where labour is cheaper (like Mexico), and what will stay in Canada? BBD.B and CHE.UN?!
just couple of examples, Russia can sell weapon to any country, I was in Israel during war with Iraq in 1991...American Patriots caused much more damage to Israel than SKADs.... Israel wanted to buy Russian S300 that much better than Patriots and much cheaper, but Israel needed to use US military aid and they can buy only US weapon on it and Russia didn't agree to sell latest rockets, but if they need money -> they will sell... .
Another example, awful M16....in Israel every military guy just hates it.... every one prefer Galil that is exact copy of Kalshnikov
....

Also, looks like high teck is Russia much stronger than in Canada, for example INTC has in Russia 4 big development sites, in Canda the last (and only development site) was closed about 6-7 years ago (I know as my wife and my cousin) worked there....


----------



## GoldStone

humble_pie said:


> as for zhirinovsky, he's a clown.


Zhirinovsky is a clown all right, but it would be naive to dismiss him out of hand.

Zhirinovsky is the leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR). Here's what Wikipedia says about LDPR creation: 


--------------

An effectively multi-party system emerged in Soviet Union in the late 1980s in wake of the Gorbachev reforms. A formal law for this purpose was introduced in October 1990.

In April 1991, the Liberal Democratic Party of the Soviet Union (LDPSS) became the second officially registered party in the country.

According to former CPSU Politburo member Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, the new party was a joint project of CPSU leadership and the KGB. He described how KGB director Vladimir Kryuchkov presented the project of the puppet party at a meeting with Mikhail Gorbachev and informed him about his selection of leaders and the mechanism of funding.

Former KGB General Philipp Bobkov described the organization as "... pseudo-party under KGB control that directs interests and sentiments of certain social groups".

--------------


23 turbulent years later, LDPR and its clown leader are still alive and well. Remarkable! I think it's very safe to assume that KGB (now FSB) has been running the party all these years.

In my opinion, LDPR/Zhirinovsky play a very particular role in the Russian political system.

1. LDPR is neither liberal nor democratic. KGB created it to discredit liberal/democratic ideals. Zhirinovsky is a clown and it's not an accident. The clown act sends a subliminal message to Russians. Liberal/Democratic = crap.

2. LDPR creates an illusion of choice in what is de facto a single-party system.

3. Russian party system is an inverted bell curve. The ruling autocratic party is on one end of the spectrum. LDPR (clowns) and Communists (dinosaurs) are on the other end. No credible opposition is allowed to exist in the middle. This is a perfect setup for Putin. In contrast to clowns and dinosaurs, his ruling party looks "moderate" and "responsible".

The clown act is not as innocent as it looks.


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> The clown act is not as innocent as it looks.


Yes, it is 

Just for fun, watch "euromaidan training" in ukranian parlament 1 year ago... pay attention on Klichko.... clowns


----------



## gibor365

Also, recommend you to watch Zhirinovsky in parlament about Crimea (you can turn on captions)....I was laughing like crazy 





Also watched another video (Russian only) with Zhirinovsky....he said that Obama is scared to include him in "black list"


----------



## humble_pie

gold i don't know if i agree w you but i am LIW (lost in wonder) at your dostoevsky-like ideas. Better than machiavelli.

didn't lenin call him (dostoevsky) repulsive-but-great?

(after viewing gibor's video) i think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Zhirinovsky is definitely a natural-born clown. But putin cuts him slack because the clowning draws the fire in the wrong direction.


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> ... It won't miraculously see through the Caucasus mountains beyond Sochi. The real concern is to monitor what is being mobilized towards NATO, and AWACS was designed for that.



they were looking, from high up in the sky, during the Sochi olympic games?

i thought they might have been looking, during the olympics. I mean, the US had naval vessels in the black sea, just offshore Sochi, in case a terrorist attack might occur during the games.

Sochi was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to spy legitimately on the southwestern borders of russia from up close. It was reasonable to imagine that air space above the black sea was hosting all kinds of planes, all looking for terrorists at Sochi plus anything else they might have been able to see ... beyond the caucasus mountains ... along the russian border regions ...


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. Also, recommend you to watch Zhirinovsky in parlament about Crimea (you can turn on captions)....I was laughing like crazy
> 2. he said that Obama is scared to include him in "black list"


1. me as well, xà xà xà.
2. Mr. Z. must consider himself very important; хихи.


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. me as well, xà xà xà.
> 2. Mr. Z. must consider himself very important; хихи.


The most famous citate of Mr. Z ...when he was asked his nationality (and he's half-russian, half-jewish), he "My mom is Russian and my dad is .... "jurist" (lawyer) " 

Regarding 2. he said if he would be on the list , he would block and destroy all Western embassies  and ..... he can 

On Ukranian parlament "fight" video, I was waiting when Klichko finally would interfere ... too bad he didn't


----------



## humble_pie

gibor said:


> On Ukranian parlament "fight" video, I was waiting when Klichko finally would interfere ... too bad he didn't



i think that parliament rumble was staged. Look at their faces. Nobody is stressed in the least. A few are even smirking.

even the politician being strangled looks poised, peaceful & highly photogenic.


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. "My mom is Russian and my dad is .... "jurist" (lawyer) "
> 2. I was waiting when Klichko finally would interfere ... too bad he didn't


1. Meshugah.
2. Well, he's an ex-boxer now. 

Mind you, there are many MPs that are also amateur boxers in parliament. From chair to egg throwing to fist fights [that have resulted in injuries even], it's all part of life in the Ukranian parliament it seems. As BBC put it "It is time they realised that they are in a European country's parliament, not in a jungle."


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> . From chair to egg throwing to fist fights [that have resulted in injuries even], it's all part of life in the Ukranian parliament it seems


here we go  



I liked "umbrella" part


----------



## uptoolate

Reading this week's Economist, not optimisitic regarding Russia's long term prospects.


----------



## andrewf

They are no fans of Putin.


----------



## gibor365

uptoolate said:


> Reading this week's Economist, not optimisitic regarding Russia's long term prospects.


Ohhhh...if Economist telling, I give up..... :biggrin:


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> They are no fans of Putin.


 neither fans of Russia


----------



## Toronto.gal

As per ria.ru [no state propaganda ofc], his approval rating after Crimea is at 70%+ & 3 year high. Forbes in 2013, named him the post powerful person, when in fact, it should have been Chancellor Merkel, then & now.


----------



## Longwinston

gibor said:


> andrewf, are you serious that several US factories on Canadian territory will keep Canda in good share?! imho, US will slowly move their factories out of Canada to countries where labour is cheaper (like Mexico), and what will stay in Canada? BBD.B and CHE.UN?!
> just couple of examples, Russia can sell weapon to any country, I was in Israel during war with Iraq in 1991...American Patriots caused much more damage to Israel than SKADs.... Israel wanted to buy Russian S300 that much better than Patriots and much cheaper, but Israel needed to use US military aid and they can buy only US weapon on it and Russia didn't agree to sell latest rockets, but if they need money -> they will sell... .
> Another example, awful M16....in Israel every military guy just hates it.... every one prefer Galil that is exact copy of Kalshnikov
> ....
> 
> Also, looks like high teck is Russia much stronger than in Canada, for example INTC has in Russia 4 big development sites, in Canda the last (and only development site) was closed about 6-7 years ago (I know as my wife and my cousin) worked there....


Russia's GDP is @ 2 Trillion. Canada's GDP is 1.8 trillion and Russia has about 4 times the population of Canada.
All that needs to be said, really.


----------



## Homerhomer

I have made my decision, I am migrating to Russia, the land of opportunity, democracy, highly developed high tech and weapons, a country full of wealth, honey and gas, where people are nothing but happy, just peace, love and prosperity, and a leader that loves children and animals.
;-)
Thank you for steering me in the right direction ;-)


----------



## Longwinston

Homerhomer said:


> I have made my decision, I am migrating to Russia, the land of opportunity, democracy, highly developed high tech and weapons, a country full of wealth, honey and gas, where people are nothing but happy, just peace, love and prosperity, and a leader that loves children and animals.
> ;-)
> Thank you for steering me in the right direction ;-)


Lol exactly


----------



## Toronto.gal

I think facts/opinions can be pointed out without mockery & sarcasm.

Some interesting points in this article by Welch-Larson & Shevchenko, regarding Russian [Chinese] responses to US primacy.
http://www.ou.edu/uschina/texts/Larson.2010.IS.Status.pdf


----------



## Homerhomer

Toronto.gal said:


> I think facts/opinions can be pointed out without mockery & sarcasm.


sure can, are you sure my bit of a humour was the first sign of it in this thread ;-)


----------



## Toronto.gal

^ Definitely not HH.


----------



## Eclectic12

gibor said:


> andrewf, are you serious that several US factories on Canadian territory will keep Canda in good share?!
> 
> imho, US will slowly move their factories out of Canada to countries where labour is cheaper (like Mexico), and what will stay in Canada? ...


Question is ... what is going to change the current climate? 

From personal experience, the US has been doing this since the mid-70's and early 80's. It's not a new thing. 

In fact, my relative was paid to oversee setting up the Indian factory to replace the Canadian one around the early 90's. This is not a new challenge to Canada.




gibor said:


> ... Also, looks like high teck is Russia much stronger than in Canada, for example INTC has in Russia 4 big development sites, in Canda the last (and only development site) was closed about 6-7 years ago (I know as my wife and my cousin) worked there...


Unless you are looking at a specific type of development, I suspect you are selling Canada short to make your comparison.

In Markham, ON alone there's 900 companies with 400 corporate head offices. There's $43 Billion in GDP, with $9 Billion in exports.

Add in areas like Vancouver or Waterloo or Montreal with companies like Google's Canadian head office, HootSuite & IBM.
Now add in a company in Ottawa that announced $100 million in venture capital funding.

Despite this quick lookaround, there is allegedly no development happening in Canada? 
This does not seem likely.


Cheers


----------



## andrewf

I didn't bother responding to that because gibor clearly isn't interested in an objective analysis. He lives in Canada. He knows full well the nature of its economy, yet he chooses to believe that Russia's economy is more dynamic and robust. One wonders why he ended up here if Canada is such a relatively dead-end place.


----------



## uptoolate

Homerhomer said:


> I have made my decision, I am migrating to Russia, the land of opportunity, democracy, highly developed high tech and weapons, a country full of wealth, honey and gas, where people are nothing but happy, just peace, love and prosperity, and a leader that loves children and animals.
> ;-)
> Thank you for steering me in the right direction ;-)



I'm going with you but not for any of that stuff - they have the most beautiful women in the world there! Oh wait, no check that, that's Ukraine! :chuncky:


----------



## gibor365

Eclectic12 said:


> Unless you are looking at a specific type of development, I suspect you are selling Canada short to make your comparison.


I was giving INTC example becuase I was familiar with situation...

Now checked on Bloomberg... let Bloomberg speak for myself 

http://www.bloomberg.com/slideshow/2013-02-01/50-most-innovative-countries.html14

14. Russia 
Russia ranked 14th in Bloomberg's Global Innovation Index. Here is how the country ranked in the determining factors:
R&D intensity: 29th
Productivity: 41st
High-tech density: 2nd
Researcher concentration: 24th
Manufacturing capability: 38th
Tertiary efficiency: 2nd
Patent activity: 8th

17. Canada 
Canada ranked 17th in Bloomberg's Global Innovation Index. Here is how the country ranked in the determining factors:
R&D intensity: 16th
Productivity: 15th
High-tech density: 25th
Researcher concentration: 11th
Manufacturing capability: 67th
Tertiary efficiency: 1st
Patent activity: 46th


----------



## gibor365

uptoolate said:


> I'm going with you but not for any of that stuff - they have the most beautiful women in the world there! Oh wait, no check that, that's Ukraine! :chuncky:


I'll let you check 
http://www.ucityguides.com/cities/top-10-countries-with-the-most-beautiful-women.html


----------



## uptoolate

Thanks but I've been to both countries and will keep my opinions to myself. Was meant to be lighthearted. Not that it matters but most lists I've seen rank Ukraine and Sweden at the top. I've never been able to disagree on either count. As usual, illustrates that you can find supporting 'evidence' for whatever you want on the 'disinformation superhighway'.


----------



## gibor365

uptoolate said:


> Thanks but I've been to both countries and will keep my opinions to myself. Was meant to be lighthearted. Not that it matters but most lists I've seen rank Ukraine and Sweden at the top. I've never been in able to disagree on either count. As usual, illustrates that you can find supporting 'evidence' for whatever you want on the 'disinformation superhighway'.


Ukraine`s girls are not bad too  
I read some time ago article about most beautiful woman in Traveler’s Digest, ... I liked last quote.... and believe it or not, it`s true 

_Traveler’s Digest, a magazine for travelers, has made a list of countries and cities where world’s most beautiful women live. Russia and its capital of Moscow do not take the last place on the list, although the country and the city can not be found on such lists as “the safest, most fashionable and pleasant country in the world to go.

Sweden with its capital, Stockholm, is the most attractive place to go for male tourists, the authors of the research believe. The abundance of beautiful women in the city gives you an impression as if you have found yourself in a reality show about top models.

In addition, Swedish women are very friendly and well-educated. They speak English with the British accent, so many might take them for British ladies. It is worthy of note that Sweden, as well as other Scandinavian countries, are one of the safest countries in the world for tourists.

Argentina and Buenos Aires takes the second place on the list. Many young Argentinean women look like models because Buenos Aires is inhabited by descendants of Italian emigrants. South American women were distinctive for their exquisite beauty in the past too. The winner of the first-ever beauty pageant held in 1888 in Belgium was a girl from Guadeloupe.

The countries of Eastern Europe and the Baltic region take positions from 3 to 8: Russia, Bulgaria, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine and Estonia respectively.

Russia is the home of world’s most beautiful women. “The number of beautiful girls in the Moscow metro may exceed the number of beautiful women in the entire USA,” the magazine wrote._


----------



## uptoolate

There you go, now we are having a serious discussion on a topic I can get behind. 

Also from Traveler's Digest last year:_

Kiev is, without a doubt, home to the world’s most beautiful women! A visit to Kiev is truly awe-inducing. You might have to pinch yourself to believe that women this beautiful could even exist. The ladies are also less intimidating than their Russian counterparts, which makes it easier to strike up a conversation. Check out Kiev in the summertime, when Hydropark Island on the Dnieper River becomes a hot spot for sunbathing Ukrainian beauties. And for anyone who thinks that beautiful women must be vapid as well, Ukrainian women are ready to disprove that theory._

This was certainly my experience there and hoping to get back once things settle down!


----------



## gibor365

uptoolate said:


> This was certainly my experience there and hoping to get back once things settle down!


After things settle down and I retire , I want to visit all Kiev, Moscow, St. Peterburg and .... Novosibirsk 

Still working...so have pretty busy schedule, middle Apr going to Cuba, June to Grenada (the same island that US invaded in 1983)


----------



## humble_pie

re messages 531-533 - guys here you are writing about women with so much class!

such appreciation, affection & respect! the very best of gender relations! bravo!

idk, maybe everybody looking for true romance has to go visit eastern europe.

paris on the seine is out. Pest on the danube is in.


----------



## Dave

humble_pie said:


> re messages 531-533...


Sorry Pie, but I must agree with my comrades above. In North America, women are plagued by the obesity epidemic which is a huge turn off and many dress sloppy comparatively to Eastern European women. And I am not even going into the feminist stuff going on here. I do not mean to be discriminatory but I do not know how to describe it otherwise. I remember that when we arrived to Canada, my mum used to say that it is a paradise for sloths because you no longer have to worry about your appearance. We went to value village and bought a bunch of ugly sweaters to survive our first winter. It was so much fun. Would never be caught dead wearing an ugly sweater in Europe. You would not eat but you had to look good.


----------



## andrewf

I wonder if that is related to income inequality. Places with high income inequality putting greater emphasis on conspicuous displays of wealth.


----------



## uptoolate

Yes on inequality but I would have guessed that it has more to do with gender inequality - economic and otherwise.


----------



## gibor365

Dave said:


> ....... You would not eat but you had to look good.


Very true


----------



## gibor365

back to the topic...

interesting article 
You Call Yourself A Contrarian? Then Buy Russia
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2065233-you-call-yourself-a-contrarian-then-buy-russia


----------



## thompsg4416

uptoolate said:


> Yes on inequality but I would have guessed that it has more to do with gender inequality - economic and otherwise.


Inequality or just different?

Speaking from some experience here boys - Russian wife and having lived in Moscow for a few years. I'm not sure its about gender inequality at least for people of my generation(born in the 80's) it's more about gender differences - perhaps a small twist on soviet egalitarianism. From my experience they embrace the fact that they are women and they are different - not less but different. My wife is often shocked(less now then when she first came over) at how many Canadian women dress and behave. She considers them to be very manly. Even now after 2 kids and being married she would never leave the house without makeup and dressing up - in contrast to the wet hair and jogging pants of N.A. She would also never consider doing any manual labour - that's for men. Nothing like coming home from work and being told to go get the groceries from the car because she would never consider lugging heavy bags of groceries around. There are many other examples and in some cases I"m sure there is gender inequality but if we're talking about beauty its more about just looking after themselves because they expect it of one another.


----------



## humble_pie

Dave said:


> Sorry Pie, but I must agree with my comrades above. In North America, women are plagued by the obesity epidemic which is a huge turn off and many dress sloppy comparatively to Eastern European women. And I am not even going into the feminist stuff going on here. I do not mean to be discriminatory but I do not know how to describe it otherwise. I remember that when we arrived to Canada, my mum used to say that it is a paradise for sloths because you no longer have to worry about your appearance. We went to value village and bought a bunch of ugly sweaters to survive our first winter. It was so much fun. Would never be caught dead wearing an ugly sweater in Europe. You would not eat but you had to look good.



???

i am agreeing with your comrades in the tiny cluster of messages above! i am 200% sincere when i say they are writing about the lovely girls of eastern europe in a friendly way! it's a refreshing break from 2 good-hearted guys! something like an early springtime carol in anticipation of bikini days, so welcome after this long cold winter.

but i've no clue why you'd rant on about "feminist stuff." There is zero feminist discussion in this thread, which is a highly serious & valuable thread populated by some persons with close-up, expert knowledge of military buildup in eastern europe (gibor, goldstone, thomps4416, toronto.gal, m3s.)

their points of view differ wildly, but they all have valuable things to say, which means that we all benefit from the wealth of information.


----------



## Homerhomer

thompsg4416 said:


> My wife is often shocked(less now then when she first came over) at how many Canadian women dress and behave. She considers them to be very manly. Even now after 2 kids and being married she would never leave the house without makeup and dressing up - in contrast to the wet hair and jogging pants of N.A. *She would also never consider doing any manual labour* - that's for men. Nothing like coming home from work and being told to go get the groceries from the car because she would never consider lugging heavy bags of groceries around. There are many other examples and in some cases I"m sure there is gender inequality but if we're talking about beauty its more about just looking after themselves because they expect it of one another.


All true, going to a corner store to get milk without make up should be a punishable offence ;-). Thankfully my wife has to some degree realized that this is silliness. However not doing any manual work you call it being different, I call it princess syndrome, which apart from beauty eastern European women have also reputation for ;-)


----------



## GoldStone

Way too many generalizations in the last ~10 posts.


----------



## Eclectic12

gibor said:


> I was giving INTC example becuase I was familiar with situation...
> 
> Now checked on Bloomberg... let Bloomberg speak for myself  ...


14th versus 17th is hardly the doom & gloom, one step away from having nothing picture that was being painted.

Interesting that R&D, Research concentration and productivity are all ranked higher. 



Cheers


----------



## humble_pie

here's another generalization to refresh this sparkling, warm, sunny spring morning w thoughts of bikinis: despite the name, friend Dave here looks to be a female. Males don't talk like this about shopping/wearing sweaters haha




Dave said:


> ... We went to value village and bought a bunch of ugly sweaters to survive our first winter. It was so much fun. Would never be caught dead wearing an ugly sweater in Europe. You would not eat but you had to look good.


----------



## Nemo2

^ Along those lines..........shopping is _never_ 'fun' for a guy.......you go into the store, buy what you need, and get out. :wink:


----------



## Homerhomer

Well here we go again ;-)
Dave has been exposed, by now it should be obvious to everyone that she is an Ukrainian secret agent married to Gibor for the sole purpose of spying on him ;-).
Gibor, don't sharpen any knives, you just never know......;-)


----------



## humble_pie

mata hari
in a sweater


----------



## Toronto.gal

Dave said:


> 1. In *North America, women are plagued by the obesity epidemic* which is a huge turn off and many dress sloppy comparatively to Eastern European women.
> 2. I do not mean to be discriminatory but* I do not know how to describe it otherwise*.
> 3. I remember that when we arrived to Canada, my mum used to say that it is a paradise for sloths because you no longer have to worry about your appearance.


*1.* Sorry that BMI measures of 30+ turn you off, but it's very much a global epidemic problem by now, and a very serious public health concern at that! Hence the issue goes beyond looks, so if you're so concerned, why not start your own thread, and maybe then, you'll become more aware that it's a problem that affects adolescents/children/men/women. 

*Key facts* [which you can verify yourself]

- Worldwide obesity has nearly doubled since 1980.
- In 2008, more than 1.4 billion adults, 20 and older, were overweight. Of these over 200 million men and nearly 300 million women were obese.
- 35% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight in 2008, and 11% were obese.
- 65% of the world's population live in countries where overweight and obesity kills more people than underweight.
- More than 40 million children under the age of five were overweight in 2011.
- Obesity is preventable.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs311/en/
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-625-x/2011001/article/11411-eng.htm 










*2.* You can't describe what you don't know, at least not with full accuracy.

*3.* And what did she & you think about the luck of the industrious ones [like you I presume?].


----------



## dogcom

This interview might interest you Gibor.

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2014/3/27_Dr._Paul_Craig_Roberts.html


----------



## humble_pie

i don't mind if "Dave" wants to rant about obesity but what has the kvetch about feminism got to do with the price of chicken?

especially in this thread. This is a serious thread.

ps i don't think we can marry off fat-little-miss-mata-hari to gibor. Gibor already has a very nice wife, we've even done some christmas shopping for her, when gibor went to no end of trouble to find beautiful gifts for his missus.

still, we ought to try to marry off Dave-the-spy to somebody


----------



## Toronto.gal

thompsg4416 said:


> she would *never leave the house without makeup* and dressing up


Lol. It reminded me of a former colleage [single], who would never leave work without refreshing her lipstick, because she said, 'you never know when you'll meet your Prince Charming'. :biggrin: 

It takes so lil time to look polished that idk why some women just don't care [same goes for men {minus make-up}]. I also don't go out without a bit of make-up; must be the European/Russian blood in me. :biggrin:

*hh:* I have little patience for such syndromes, which also affects princes. 

*gibor:* you may not be surprised that I don't own Russian stocks [nor Chinese and few more], but mostly because like you, I would not feel comfortable owning single stocks from said region for obvious reasons. I would via ETFs, but to date, I have not warmed up to them.

I might break my rule and consider one or two stocks. 

*Obama’s Anemic Speech in Europe*
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/opinion/cohen-obamas-anemic-speech-in-europe.html?_r=0

There were also mostly anemic speeches in the 1st big debate for Toronto Mayor yesterday. :stupid:


----------



## Dave

homerhomer said:


> dave has been exposed, by now it should be obvious to everyone that she is an ukrainian secret agent...


lol 

Pie, my misunderstanding of your original post. No offense meant. For the feminist thing, we value very much traditional role models as others have illustrated. That's all. Will be travelling back again to Eastern Europe in a few weeks with my family so I am well aware of how serious the discussion is.


----------



## gibor365

US votes regarding Crimes : One hundred countries voted in favor of the resolution, with 11 against and 58 abstaining.

The 11 that opposed the resolution were Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Nicaragua, Russia, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, and Zimbabwe

Surprised by Irael recation "_The United States often stands virtually alone, save for the company of its colonies like Micronesia and the Marshall Islands, as well as other settler-colonial states like Canada, in opposing UN resolutions critical of Israel.
Israel did not return the favor today by backing a resolution the US feels very strongly about.

_


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> *gibor:* you may not be surprised that I don't own Russian stocks [nor Chinese and few more], but mostly because like you, I would not feel comfortable owning single stocks from said region for obvious reasons. I would via ETFs, but to date, I have not warmed up to them.
> 
> I might break my rule and consider one or two stocks.


Yes, i was talking about some ETF, as example ERUS or RSX , they have extremely low P/E 5 and 7 respectivly... but again, I kinda scared.... instead so far I was buying DEM with 20% allocation to Russia.

BTW, a lot of talks about increasing gas supply to Europe from non-Russian companies, some NA companies can benefit from it... what is your opinion the best stock in this field?


----------



## andrewf

Mebane Faber just launched a global value ETF (GVAL) that invests in equities (corresponding to equity indexes) from countries that are trading at low CAPE ratios. Russia is among the cheapest countries at the moment, and forms one of the biggest allocations in the ETF.

He wrote an interesting post about the difficulty in investing in dirt cheap countries because the news is usually so bad.

Why Value Investing is So Hard (Russian Edition)

Global Value ETF


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Mebane Faber just launched a global value ETF (GVAL) that invests in equities (corresponding to equity indexes) from countries that are trading at low CAPE ratios. Russia is among the cheapest countries at the moment, and form.


That's right.... cheaper than Russian is only Greece, even Argentina is more expensive...


----------



## GoldStone

gibor, fyi

Prominent Ukranian Jews wrote an open letter to Putin. 222 signatures and counting.

Quotes:

"You [Putin] consciously pick and choose lies and slander from the massive amount of information about Ukraine."

...

"Right now, after Ukraine has survived a difficult political crisis, many of us have wound up on different sides of the barricades. The Jews of Ukraine, as all ethnic groups, are not absolutely unified in their opinion towards what is happening in the country. But we live in a democratic country and can afford a difference of opinion."

...

"They have tried to scare us (and are continuing their attempts) with “Bandera followers” and “Fascists” attempting to wrest away the helm of Ukrainian society, with imminent Jewish pogroms. Yes, we are well aware that the political opposition and the forces of social protests who have secured changes for the better are made up of different groups. They include nationalistic groups, but even the most marginal do not dare show anti-Semitism or other xenophobic behavior. And we certainly know that our very few nationalists are well-controlled by civil society and the new Ukrainian government – which is more than can be said for the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security services."


----------



## gibor365

Gold, everyone has their own opinion, I gave link earlier on Caplan's articls from Globe and mail where another group of other prominent Ukranian Jews telling opposite things about new Ukranian governmet.... also I have relatives in both Russia and Ukraine and they fully support Russia.
btw, all Iranian Jews also support current Iranian government....so what?!

Also, watched documentary....looks like Euromaidan part 2 is coming...this time against current government....
Right now watched on Russian TV weather forecast for major Russian cities, finally Sevastopol and Simferopol were among them  Nice to see.... maybe really I should consider retirement in Crimea....nice weather +17 and sunny 

*Ukrainian Jews split on support for Russian invasion

Read more: Ukrainian Jews split on support for Russian invasion | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrainian-jews-split-on-support-for-russian-invasion/#ixzz2xIx4Z77S 
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook*


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. everyone has their *own opinion.*....
> 2. btw, all *Iranian Jews also support current Iranian government*....so what?!
> 3. I should consider *retirement in Crimea*....nice weather +17 and sunny


*1.* Right, because from here or there, we don't know everything.

*2.* More so than non-Jews these days: 'According to The Times of London, Iranians angered by what they perceive as their government’s indifference to the fate of a border guard kidnapped and killed by Pakistani militants this week took to social media over the weekend to urge the administration of President Hassan Rouhani to take a page out of Israel’s playbook. Iranian nationals posted messages on Facebook and Twitter seemingly envious of the country which their government derisively calls “the Zionist entity” and “a cancer,” particularly over the manner in which the Israeli government secured the release of one of its captured soldiers, Gilad Schalit, after he fell into Hamas captivity in 2006. “Keep saying ‘Death to Israel’ but they freed 1,027 Palestinians in return for the release of one of their own,” an Iranian is quoted by the Times as writing on his Facebook account.'

*3.* Sochi could be your private island right about now; pity you're not near retirement. :tongue-new:


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> BTW, a lot of talks about increasing gas supply to Europe from non-Russian companies, some NA companies can benefit from it... what is your opinion the best stock in this field?


I'm guessing that current news are not making the environmental groups in the US, and even Obama, very happy these days. :rolleyes2:

Even b4 the current adventure of Tsar Putin, the ongoing economic & other crises, have for some time now, increased NA talks of trade agreements/easing some export restrictions [even for non-FTA sales]/TTIP negotiations/CETA agreements, etc., and all of which will end up benefiting NA companies in the long-term. 

Speaking of agreements, do you know how long it took the EU to negotiate one with Singapore and SK? 4 years! How long did it take us to announce/negotiate our 1st trade agreement with Asia? A decade!

Anyhow, I'm a bargain hunter, so I'm always looking around for shorter-term opportunities [internationally], but was already well positioned in this space for long-term, especially considering how cheap our very own & US O&G stocks have been for some time.

In 2013, I had been watching a couple more stocks, but they got away from me, because I was using funds to increase the ones I already owned. What I'm looking for now closer to home, are drilling companies, speaking of which, did you buy PD Nemo? Can't remember when u mentioned it, but YTD = 30%. I did look at it when it was a single digit stock, but got forgotten. 

The bigger question might be what companies to avoid, who are likely to have projects in the EU [and vice-versa], and then work from a shorter list.

*'According to the Canadian government, the EU is the “world’s largest single common market, foreign investor and trader” with a market worth $17.4 trillion.
Canada has 174 billion barrels of oils reserves – the third largest in the world behind Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. It’s enough to meet North American demand for 20 years at today’s consumption rates, and Canada now exports 40 per cent more oil to the U.S. than the Middle East. It could, however, be exporting more, said Bob Dudley, Chief Executive, of BP plc, in a keynote address at the Energy Roundtable, adding the company now invests $1 billion in Canada annually'.
*

I'm guessing you read this article.
*Canada could replace Russia as Europe’s gas supplier – eventually*
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...opes-gas-supplier-eventually/article17706740/


----------



## Nemo2

^


> did you buy PD Nemo?


 No, it went up before we had the available funds......(bought some (totally unrelated) QCOR)


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> *
> 
> 2. More so than non-Jews these days
> 3. Sochi could be your private island right about now; pity you're not near retirement. :tongue-new:*


*
2. And you know why they are talking like this , right?! I bet that if those Jews happen to immigrate from Iran, their view will be 100% opposite?! Jews, especially prominent, are not stupid  They know very well that Kiev will remain Ukranian, so if they will support current co-called government, they will have much better benefits than if they will support Russia. This is why we survived as a nation thousands of years . This is why I believe more to regular people whom I know or who relatives of my relatives etc.
3. I've been to both, Sochi and Crimea and I liked Crimea much more *


----------



## GoldStone

"One of the most powerful tools the Kremlin has in its secret arsenal of Special War is provocation, what they call _provokatsiya_."

"Provocation combined with propaganda can be powerfully effective in transmitting Big Lies about people, places, and even whole countries, especially in times of crisis. The Kremlin has been honing this unpleasant skill for more than a century. The next time you hear about violence in Ukraine – and, sadly, you certainly will – it’s good to remember that _provokatsiya_ is real."

*Understanding Provocation*
http://20committee.com/2014/03/29/understanding-provocation/


----------



## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> ^ No, it went up before we had the available funds......


There are some very tempting opportunities in the drilling sector, so not too late.

*gibor:* I know what you mean.

Alexander Malevany, deputy head of the Federal Security Service allegedly said: "There has been a sharp increase in external threats to the state. The lawful desire of the peoples of Crimea and eastern Ukrainian regions is causing hysteria in the United States and its allies." 

Putin: calls Obama.
Obama: put it in writing.


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> Putin: calls Obama.
> Obama: put it in writing.


So that Obama can focus on dissecting and analyzing the wording of the 'proposal', the placement of the commas, the size of the font, etc, and still claim to be 'actively engaged'?


----------



## thompsg4416

back to the OP - My 12k investment in Gazprom(OZGPY) is up 7% so far. I believe it has a bit further to climb(Somewhere north of 8) before I sell. Might keep a small position just for the big Div.


----------



## Toronto.gal

^ Very nice OP!  

And yes, there should be more upside, especially now that Gazprom has increased Ukranian's NG prices by 40%. 

I know, I know, I know, they had to break the price agreement reached just last Dec. between Viktor Yanukovych & Putin, because of the unpaid bills of close to $2B, and for no other reason. I'm not saying they don't have to pay their debt, and to be fair, Putin only agreed to the reduction on a temporary basis, but did the temporary basis mean a single quarter, back on Dec.17/2013, when they also signed various bilateral agreements?

Meanwhile, Russia grabbed Crimea in the blink of an eye [they put the Georgian war experience to practice], and still have battalions on the Ukranian border, but suddenly, nothing personal just business is business?! Oh wait, they are not Russian troops at all on the border, just 'local militia.' 

Speaking of blinks, this photo was taken on the very day Putin had made all those nice promises to Ukraine:










How much can change in just a quarter, ha?


----------



## gibor365

_the price agreement reached just last Dec. between Viktor Yanukovych & Putin_ but where is Yanukovych now?! so, agreement is not valid anymore  i was scaried to buy individual Russian stock, but bought DEM (with Gazprom as a biggest holding) and it was doing OK too


----------



## Toronto.gal

^ Where the coward Yanukovych is now? Keeping Putin & Snowden company, surely not with the ***** Riot. 

But sure, just 'legally' rob & punish Ukranians, then move on & continue business as usual. And btw, before & after he went to hide in Russia, wasn't he saying that he was still Ukraine's president?! *“I would like to remind you that I am not only the legitimate President of Ukraine, but I’m also the commander of the army,” Mr. Yanukovych said in a prepared statement read out to reporters in Rostov-on-Don in southern Russia. “I am alive and I have not been impeached according to the Ukrainian constitution.”*

*The Ukrainian government denounced the visit as a "crude violation" of the rules of diplomacy, a few hours after the latest round of crisis talks between Russia and the United States ended inconclusively.*
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/31/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-medvedev-idUSBREA2U0O520140331

And hot off the press, and just in time for your upcoming retirement in Crimea [per your March 28th post]: :biggrin:

*For starters, what all investors love: tax incentives to put their money to work along the Black Sea peninsula of Crimea..*
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo...an-rule-crimea-gets-tax-breaks-for-investors/


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> ^ Where the coward Yanukovych is now? Keeping Putin & Snowden company, surely not with the ***** Riot.


Sure  "coward Yanukovych' just cannot like ***** Riot insert frozen chicken  just doesn't have it


----------



## thompsg4416

Toronto.gal said:


> ^ Very nice OP!
> 
> I know, I know, I know, they had to break the price agreement reached just last Dec. between Viktor Yanukovych & Putin, because of the unpaid bills of close to $2B, and for no other reason. I'm not saying they don't have to pay their debt, and to be fair, Putin only agreed to the reduction on a temporary basis, but did the temporary basis mean a single quarter, back on Dec.17/2013.
> 
> How much can change in just a quarter, ha?


What country (laws aside because I don't feel they have a place in this convo - my thoughts on those I posted a while back) gives discounts to a hostile country/government? This is a very important point for the current gov in Ukraine (as well as the west)to understand. geography is geography and the Ukraine has an energy dependent economy with very few natural resources of their own. 

Inevitably, I feel just as Canada will always be under the influence of our much larger neighbour so will the Ukraine. I seriously question their economic prospects with a hostile Russia next door. Russia's influence needs to be recognized and that's the cold hard reality the Ukraine and thier western backers are going to have to somehow deal with. I hear a lot of pie in the sky rhetoric especially from Harper and the like but our 220 million in aid won't even keep the lights on for a month. Who's gonna pay long term? The billions in aid given by the EU will barely cover the next year. Can they with an already fragile economy afford to support Ukraine? Good luck to them.


----------



## Toronto.gal

thompsg4416 said:


> 1. What country (laws aside because I don't feel they have a place in this convo - my thoughts on those I posted a while back) *gives discounts to a hostile country/government?*
> 2. This is a very important point for the current gov in Ukraine (as well as the west)to understand.


*1.* Russia is not hostile? These days, Putin is getting praise from just Assad.
*2.* You made/make valid points, however, I think that it's not just hard for the West to understand certain things, but also hard for those born in Russia and those married to one also.

I'm out.


----------



## thompsg4416

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* Russia is not hostile? These days, Putin is getting praise from just Assad.
> *2.* You made/make valid points, however, I think that it's not just hard for the West to understand certain things, but also hard for those born in Russia and those married to one also.
> 
> I'm out.


TGal- Russia is very hostile in this case. They invaded Ukraine and took over the Crimea. My simple point was, given the situation it can't be surprising they took away the gas discount. As long as the the Ukrainian gov is not a pro Russian gov it will remain that way. That's a grim reality for Ukraine. Fair or not.

Although my family situation certainly gives me some perspective, I feel it's my years following the region and my years spent living there before I met my wife that has given me the most perspective. I try to paint a real picture - not a black and white one as many make it out to be. I find many of the views and the coverage of the region to be lopsided and simple. The coverage has got better, I've read some well written balanced coverage and I've tried to point it out, as have others on occasion. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Russia didn't just decide to invade Ukraine - there are reasons for it besides them simply being evil.

Just to add in case I haven't been clear in the past - I'm no fan of the current government. At a certain point he did a lot of good things for Russia but he's past his due date. Its time to step down and give someone else with fresh ideas and new energy a turn. Unfortunately I'm not sure this will happen anytime soon.


----------



## humble_pie

thompsg4416 said:


> Although my family situation certainly gives me some perspective, I feel it's my years following the region and my years spent living there [Russia] before I met my wife that has given me the most perspective. I try to paint a real picture - not a black and white one as many make it out to be. I find many of the views and the coverage of the region to be lopsided and simple. The coverage has got better, I've read some well written balanced coverage and I've tried to point it out, as have others on occasion. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Russia didn't just decide to invade Ukraine - there are reasons for it besides them simply being evil.



thomps you have certainly tried to speak to the fair & reasonable middle path. It's a great pity that canada has knee-jerked herself into grovelling after washington's line.

i agree that many media are doing a good job reporting all sides of the situation (interesting tidbit: am i hearing that the Tatars now want an independent state?) (where?) (perhaps a situation a bit like kurdistan)

back to canada, there are many subtle things canada could do to try to ease the situation rather than aggravate it. 

1) understand that NATO's increased membership plus its asia-pacific partner agreements are policies that do contribute to anxiety & hostile defence measures in ever-more-surrounded moscow;

2) work with uncommitted nations such as India, with whom we have good relations while they also have some direct access to putin & his government; thus reinforcing our messages that russia should not continue to overstep.

3) should keep its best & most experienced foreign service officers on the desk, not its war-mongers, so that every tiny sign that putin is considering less aggressive measures can be immediately taken up, discussed & reinforced.


----------



## andrewf

Ukraine is sandwiched between Russia and the EU. The EU is bigger and richer than Russia, so it should not be so surprising that they end up in the EU's sphere of influence. Poland is thriving in the EU, Ukraine could too if they were willing to adopt some difficult reforms and break their clientelist relationship with Russia.


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## andrewf

HP:

1) Nato and especially the US/Obama has made significant efforts to appease Russia, including abandoning its missile defense plans in eastern Europe. Putin in turn spurned these overtures by opposing the West in the Arab Spring and now by invading Crimea. I don't think you can blame the West for turning relations sour. It was a deliberate choice by Putin. Shame, really, because Russia could have benefited greatly through friendly relations with the West.

3) I don't think appeasement is a viable strategy at this point. This has echoes of Chamberlain. Western permissiveness will be exploited by Putin. Of course we shouldn't have any Rumsfeld-esque cowboys on the desk, but naive doves don't seem appropriate either.


----------



## Toronto.gal

andrewf said:


> 1. deliberate choice by Putin.
> 2. Western permissiveness will be exploited by Putin.


*1.* This can hardly be debated. His pretext for invading, was just that, a pretext; worse even was his deliberate use & abuse of the anti-Semitic issue [which is everywhere and nothing new], for just his dreams of expansion & power. 

Given past history, and listening to his so called historic speech, the man had wanted Crimea all along, but like the snake that he is, he waited and waited until the time was right, and Obama & others gave it to him.

*2.* +1. Putin = opportunistic evil.


----------



## gibor365

One of the biggest achievment of Putin for RF -> bringing back Crimea! It was Russian territory even before US Constitution was written and it will be for good 

P.S. Putin is not bigger evil than Obama, G. W. Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Trumen etc...etc......


----------



## gibor365

MOSCOW, March 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval rating has reached 80 percent, with a majority of Russians saying the country is heading in the right direction, an independent pollster said Wednesday.
A poll by the Levada Center said public support for the Russian leader rose by 8 percent since Putin delivered an address to parliament on Crimea before the predominantly Russian-speaking region rejoined Russia last week.
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140326/188776004/Putins-Approval-Rating-Rises-to-80--Poll.html

WASHINGTON, April 3 (KUNA) -- The United States has deployed fighter jets in the Baltics and Poland as NATO "stands ready" to assist allies namely Ukraine against territorial breaches by Russia.
http://www.kuna.net.kw/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=2370292&Language=en

and what will be reaction is Russia will "deploy fighter jets " in Cuba and Venezuela?!


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> he waited and waited until the time was right, and Obama & others gave it to him.


As has been noted many times by others....throughout history weakness invites aggression.


----------



## humble_pie

oh stop with the stale, tired old chamberlain cliché.

people, unions, governments, couples, politicians, nations negotiate all the time. Life itself is give & take. There's nothing chamberlain about negotiation, flexibility, open minds. They are how problems get solved.

what is there to be gained by screeching hyper-emotional hatred at vladimir putin? no one thinks that he's going to cower each:

the east european desks at 125 sussex drive have to do better than that. From time to time, especially in the late 20th century, our foreign service has indeed done much better than that.

meanwhile, only a rigid retro would keep falling back on the chamberlain cliché. Not realizing that it's been worked to death.


----------



## Nemo2

Nothing, or very little, to do with appeasement........it's a matter of weakness, and Obama is weak, (he is spiteful, but that is indicative of weakness)........strong leaders can negotiate, without the empty hyperbole of 'Red Lines', (which are later attributed to others in a futile attempt at face saving), and they can negotiate calmly without "screeching hyper-emotional hatred" _and_ without threatening, (beyond the implied threat of their presence).

People do things because they can, and especially when they recognize the way is clear.


----------



## gibor365

Nemo2, and who is alternative to Obama?! Idiot McCain?! who wanted to ban Russians from Las Vegas!
or our "leader" Harper?! who in 8 years of his "leadeship" never even visited Russia?!


----------



## humble_pie

i for one believe that western military intelligence had information confirming or at least suggesting the russian buildup as early as fall 2013.

there is even some slight evidence that western intelligence was deploying surface reconnaissance missions across parts of eastern europe at that early date, as well as routine sky spying missions.

it was the silly west that let itself be beguiled by all the olympic whoopee. It was the west that bought into the myth that the only dangers were either the black widows or else the ***** riot or else the mal-installed twin toilets of Sochi, or quite possibly all three of these sinister evils.

those convoys of giant armoured trucks rolling into crimea, those batteries of expertly armed soldiers who looked like elite strategic strike forces, they didn't just materialize overnight as dream warriors ... i imagine that NATO knew something was up, but it looks like washington/london were asleep at the switch.

(aside to nemo) we have screechers right here in cmf forum, no need to talk about the politicians ...


----------



## andrewf

So, what's to negotiate at this point? Russia will not be ceding Crimea. The US has been trying to improve relations with Russia under Obama, and Putin spat in its face. What would Russia offer to the US in exchange for reduced sanctions? The West has no interest in repeated capitulation to Russian expansionism.

HP, you may find it cliche, but it is a comparable situation. Putin will not be interested in any negotiation that restrains him from doing anything he would do anyway. So playing at negotiation while letting each transgression go like water under the bridge is playing exactly into his strategy for exploiting Western weakness.


----------



## dogcom

The west led the uprising and Neo-Nazi protesters and so on before the Olympics in Ukraine, leading to the situation we have today. The west I believe knew Russia would act in such a way and the question is why?


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> The west led the uprising and Neo-Nazi protesters and so on before the Olympics in Ukraine, leading to the situation we have today. The west I believe knew Russia would act in such a way and the question is why?


US spent 5 billions In The Development of Ukrainian "Democratic Institutions" (as per Victoria Nuland ), they finished "development" and got what they got


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> So, what's to negotiate at this point? Russia will not be ceding Crimea.


100% agree


----------



## GoldStone

dogcom said:


> The west led the uprising and Neo-Nazi protesters and so on before the Olympics in Ukraine


Ah, you are just repeating Putin's talking points. Maybe you should apply for a job at the state controlled Russian TV? :encouragement:


----------



## Nemo2

gibor said:


> Nemo2, and who is alternative to Obama?!


An empty suit/chair? Just about anybody.


gibor said:


> or our "leader" Harper?! who in 8 years of his "leadeship" never even visited Russia?!


St Petersburg _is_ still in Russia is it not? (Or did the Finns & Estonians split it up between them ? :wink: )
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/photo-gallery/prime-minister-harper-attends-g8-summit-st-petersburg-russia


----------



## humble_pie

GoldStone said:


> Ah, you are just repeating Putin's talking points. Maybe you should apply for a job at the state controlled Russian TV? :encouragement:


now we're back to square one.

i'm back to saying that we need gibor, because he's the only party articulating moscow's side of things in a fairly jolly manner. I like that he's indefatiguable.

you see, without gibor, we'll all be run over by the crypto-fascists on here :biggrin:


----------



## GoldStone

*Re: Putin's 80% approval rating or whatever % it is.*

Garry Kasparov used this analogy and I think it's very apt:

Imagine a town with only one restaurant. It serves only one dish. You can say the dish is very popular in the town. It would be the right thing to say, but also incredibly ignorant.

-------------------------------------------

Speaking of opinion polls:

45% of Russian students and 38% of Russian businessman would like to emigrate

That's hardly a vote of confidence for Putin's regime.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> As has been noted many times by others....throughout history *weakness invites aggression.*


Others believe, that in this case, it invited a historic & legal opportunity to correct historical injustices, and to return Crimea to the former Tsarist Empire. Never mind the Belavezha & other Accords that followed in the 20th century.

Btw, do you remember which 3 countries were the first to recognize Ukraine's independence back in 1991? 

*Gibor*, remind me when Putin visited Canada last? I think he attended a G8 meeting once, does that count? :tongue-new:

Poka poka. This time for real. :biggrin:

Spokoynoy nochi.


----------



## gibor365

Nemo2 said:


> An empty suit/chair? Just about anybody.
> 
> St Petersburg _is_ still in Russia is it not? (Or did the Finns & Estonians split it up between them ? :wink: )
> http://pm.gc.ca/eng/photo-gallery/prime-minister-harper-attends-g8-summit-st-petersburg-russia


Ohh, 8 years ago! on G8 summit... but we was the first one who visited putsch Kiev goverment and even placed flowers where demonstrnts were killed by snipers hired by the same government 

and what about 
_When Mr. Baird was in Kiev last week to show his support for Ukraine’s post-revolutionary leadership, I asked him when was the last time he had met with Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. There was a pause of nearly 10 seconds before Mr. Baird recalled that both he and Mr. Lavrov had attended a Syria peace conference in Montreux, Switzerland in late January. They’ve had no interaction at all, then, since the change of power in Kiev, or the Russian moves in Crimea._
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...have-to-be-this-way/article17384414/?page=all


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> now we're back to square one.
> 
> i'm back to saying that we need gibor, because he's the only party articulating moscow's side of things in a fairly jolly manner. I like that he's indefatiguable.
> 
> you see, without gibor, we'll all be run over by the crypto-fascists on here :biggrin:


Dude, take it easy  English is my 3rd language, I don't understand half of the words you are writing


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> Others believe, that in this case, it invited a historic & legal opportunity to correct historical injustices, and to return Crimea to the former Tsarist Empire. Never mind the Belavezha & other Accords that followed in the 20th century.


Either way, weakness is the commonality and the catalyst.


Toronto.gal said:


> Btw, do you remember which 3 countries were the first to recognize Ukraine's independence back in 1991?


Wasn't some guy named Mulroney involved?


----------



## gibor365

GoldStone said:


> *Re: Putin's 80% approval rating or whatever % it is.*
> 
> Garry Kasparov used this analogy and I think it's very apt:
> 
> Imagine a town with only one restaurant. It serves only one dish. You can say the dish is very popular in the town. It would be the right thing to say, but also incredibly ignorant.
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Speaking of opinion polls:
> 
> 45% of Russian students and 38% of Russian businessman would like to emigrate
> 
> That's hardly a vote of confidence for Putin's regime.


1. Everyone can serve another dishes , no problem ... and it's not like 2 candidates in US  Garry K. actually tried many time, but .... practically no one votes for him, because he's like American Bobby Fischer (if you know who it it) 

Oh yeah
_Some 73 percent of those polled said they have never thought of taking any real steps to emigrate. Nearly 17 percent said they occasionally think of leaving the country, the survey said._
We also sometimes thinking about immigrating to New Zealand or AUS  My son, university student, wants to immigrate to Europe.... really nice survey.... Imiigration is completely free now, you want to immigrate -> go ahead.... the problem that who needs them


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> Others believe, that in this case, it invited a historic & legal opportunity to correct historical injustices, and to return Crimea to the former Tsarist Empire. Never mind the Belavezha & other Accords that followed in the 20th century.
> 
> Btw, do you remember which 3 countries were the first to recognize Ukraine's independence back in 1991?
> 
> *Gibor*, remind me when Putin visited Canada last? I think he attended a G8 meeting once, does that count? :tongue-new:
> 
> Poka poka. This time for real. :biggrin:
> 
> Spokoynoy nochi.


You are wrong  Vladimir Putin visits Canada House at Sochi Olympics 

And Putin doesn't interfere with Canadian internal business.... do you think he gives sh%^ regarding QC intention to separate?! And if they separate, you think, Putin will be the first G8 leader visiting Quebec City?!


----------



## humble_pie

RIA novosti has marvellous headlines, apart from those saying that nearly half of russians want to emigrate.

did y'll know that 22% of russians have signed a petition asking that Alaska be reunited with Russia, to which Alaska belonged until 1867 when the late Tzar Alexander II sold her to the US of A for $7.2 million in a misguided moment?

i'm just mentioning so y'll will be able to understand when those soldiers with the black balaclavas under their helmets start showing up in beautiful downtown juneau.

even better: did y'll know that it was Alaska that saved Russia during her recent caviar crisis? for nine long years, shortages of black sturgeon caviar kept russia from exporting any. Meanwhile russians have learned to feast on red caviar from salmon roe, much of it imported this year from Alaska.

the article didn't say what has been happening to the mama sturgeons, that they don't produce enough roe, though.

as for the ukraine, there were plenty articles. It was plain that the rain in ukraine is mainly a tiny tempest in a teapot.

the real issue is russia moving eastward & her buildout of an asia-pacific presence, says RIA novosti, which is the state-owned communications agency. RIA says that the real issue is the growing might of the russia-china alliance.

i'd previously read that russia plans to build a new gas pipeline from russia to china, to be operational by 2018. This will permit russia to permanently thumb her nose at european gas consumption.

hey it all sounds real, even about the caviar. Thankx goldstone!


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> did y'll know that 22% of russians have signed a petition asking that Alaska be reunited with Russia, to which Alaska belonged until 1867 when the late Tzar Alexander II sold her to the US of A for $7.2 million in a misguided moment?


Sure! Why not?! _Alaska's relatively large Eastern Orthodox Christian population is notable. The large Eastern Orthodox (with 49 parishes and up to 50,000 followers) population is a result of early Russian colonization and missionary work among Alaska Natives. In 1795, the First Russian Orthodox Church was established in Kodiak. Intermarriage with Alaskan Natives helped the Russian immigrants integrate into society. As a result, an increasing number of Russian Orthodox churches gradually became established within Alaska. _


----------



## andrewf

Nemo2 said:


> An empty suit/chair? Just about anybody.


The only other choice in 2012 was Romney. Empty chair did not appear on the ballot.


----------



## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> The only other choice in 2012 was Romney. Empty chair did not appear on the ballot.


Romney? Oh yeah, the guy who (correctly) identified that Russia was a 'problem' and who was told, by 'The One', that the 1980s wanted their policy back...._that_ Romney?

(Me? I'm a Ted Cruz guy.)


----------



## andrewf

I can't tell if you're just trolling wrt Ted Cruz. He is utterly unelectable, though, so I think you're destined for disappointment.


----------



## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> I can't tell if you're just trolling wrt Ted Cruz. He is utterly unelectable, though, so I think you're destined for disappointment.


The fact that Ted's probably unelectable likely speaks more to the state of the electorate than that of the candidate.......as to disappointments, the last two (not counting the mid-term) elections took care of that.


----------



## andrewf

He is literally unelectable because he is ineligible to be President, as a foreigner.


----------



## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> He is literally unelectable because he is ineligible to be President, as a foreigner.


http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/09/natural-born-citizens-marco-rubio-bobby-jindal-ted-cruz/


----------



## andrewf

Are these the same people who argue Obama was born in Kenya/Indonesia and is therefore illegitimate? Seems they can't make up their mind.


----------



## gibor365

Ukraine's government struggled to stay in control of the country's eastern regions as tensions flared Tuesday in three cities (those are 3 biggest industrial Ukranian cities, Donetsk alone accounts for 12% of Ukraine’s economy, more than any other region except the capital.). While the government managed to recapture its regional headquarters and detain dozens of pro-Russian protesters in one city, it said "radicals" were keeping 60 people hostage and threatening them in another city.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-tensions-flare-as-60-hostages-taken-in-east-1.2600621

Looks like US got what they wanted with all those Colour revolutions and billions spent for "building of democratic institutions"


----------



## andrewf

Are we pretending that these are not Russian agents trying to destabilize eastern Ukraine to give Putin a pretext to annex more Ukrainian territory?


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Are we pretending that these are not Russian agents trying to destabilize eastern Ukraine to give Putin a pretext to annex more Ukrainian territory?


You watched too much Hollywood movies  what Russian agents?! If I'd live in Donetzk now, I'd go with protesters...


----------



## humble_pie

no doubt about it, every muni, region, province & state that harbours even one solitary russian personnage ought to be quaking with fear that putin's hordes clad in full battle gear are going to rampage across the planet, snatching up parcels of real estate in the name of protecting the civil rights of russian citizens

gibor do u think toronto is at risk because u are there? could the russians come at night by stealth bomber to rescue you from canadian oppression? or - the unthinkable - do you think they might even march up the 401 _from quebec_?


----------



## andrewf

HP, your point would be much stronger had Russia not annexed another part of Ukraine hardly a fortnight ago, with tens of thousands of troops staged within a few hundred kms of the cities in question. Of course the idea that Russia may try to annex more territory is preposterous.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> HP, your point would be much stronger had Russia not annexed another part of Ukraine hardly a fortnight ago, with tens of thousands of troops staged within a few hundred kms of the cities in question. Of course the idea that Russia may try to annex more territory is preposterous.


Really?! Another "part of Ukraine" just hold democratic referendum and with majority voted to join Russia. 
If you look at Ukranian history , you will see that this is artificial country that never really existed... it consistes from parts of Russia, Poland, Hungary, Romania.... no wonder that it's breaking apart.


----------



## Homerhomer

gibor said:


> If you look at Ukranian history , you will see that this is artificial country that never really existed... it consistes from parts of Russia, Poland, Hungary, Romania.... no wonder that it's breaking apart.


By these standards Israel is so artificial it smells like plastic ;-)
Invasions and neighbours dividing the countries were very common in Europe, so it's not that Ukraine never existed, it's more like it was always invaded.


----------



## gibor365

important news 

FC "Sevastopol" will play in the Russian league from next season.
....UEFA president Michel Platini and FIFA President Joseph Blatter also expressed its position that does not contradict the entry "Sevastopol" and "Tavria" in Russian championship at the end of the season
http://mysevastopol.info/anews/7_668.html


----------



## gibor365

Homerhomer said:


> By these standards Israel is so artificial it smells like plastic ;-)
> Invasions and neighbours dividing the countries were very common in Europe, so it's not that Ukraine never existed, it's more like it was always invaded.


To be invaded you need to exist first 

_Orthodox population Rzeczpospolita subjected to religious oppression by the Polish Catholics . Protest against oppression poured into recurring uprising. In these circumstances, the State Russian Orthodox looked natural ally of the rebels.

First for help addressed to the Russian tsar registered Cossacks hetman Krzysztof Kosinski , who led an uprising against the Polish gentry in 1591-1593 , respectively. [3] Later, after the failure of Sigismund III, to meet the demands of increasing registry embassy Hetman Sagaydachnogo led by Peter Odinets requested to take Zaporozhian Host Russian citizenship_

Israel?! Really?! Kingdom of Israel existed when majority of current nations didn't exist or lived on the trees  Kingdom of Israel _The United Monarchy is the name given to the Israelite kingdom of Saul, David and Solomon, known primarily from the Hebrew Bible. This is traditionally dated between 1020 and 930 BCE_


----------



## Homerhomer

it is really interesting how you pick and choose different periods in history and make them fit into your own interpretations ;-)


----------



## andrewf

Israeli existed 3000 years ago therefore it's rebirth is not artificial? I think splitting hairs on this to arrive at whatever conclusion suits you is dangerous. What matters is that Ukraine is today a sovereign state, which Russia has recognized. And cheering on Putin's aggressive stance toward Ukraine is very strange. It's not going to help anyone, not even Russians. It's putting nationalism above human welfare.


----------



## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Ukraine is today a sovereign state, which Russia has recognized.


 CCCP was also a sovereign state that was recognized by every country...


----------



## thompsg4416

Strategically its doubtful Putin will invade eastern Ukraine - it doesn't make a lot of sense. Militarily it would be much more difficult(I.E a real invasion over a wide area of land unlike the Crimea), financially it would be crippling - unlike the token sanctions in place now, western countries would be forced to do something real. Finally support at home for a bloody war would be far less then the (mainly) bloodless invasion of Crimea. What does Putin have to gain?

IMHO the most likely scenario is that Russia continues to make life very difficult for the current regime in Ukraine until a regime friendly to Moscow is back in power. This will happen as soon as the west stops footing the bill. My guess is about 1 year from now. 

WRT Israel/Russia - one could draw a lot of parallels between the two and their behavior.


----------



## humble_pie

on a related issue, thomps4416, how do you see the repatriation of foreign-traded russian shares back to moscow exchange? has this affected your Gazprom purchase?

one reads that london will be most affected as greater number of russian shares trade in london than in the US.

theoretically it seems to me that price of russian stocks should drop. However no drop seems to be occurring as of yet.


----------



## thompsg4416

humble_pie said:


> on a related issue, thomps4416, how do you see the repatriation of foreign-traded russian shares back to moscow exchange? has this affected your Gazprom purchase?
> 
> one reads that london will be most affected as greater number of russian shares trade in london than in the US.
> 
> theoretically it seems to me that price of russian stocks should drop. However no drop seems to be occurring as of yet.


Well it hasn't affected my shares in Gazprom up until this point and personally I don't think it will because I don't think GAZPROM will de-list. It seemed to be nothing but rhetoric since it wasn't backed up by any law. The decision will be voluntarily up to the company in question.

For my sake i hope I'm right.


----------



## humble_pie

thomps4416 do you know who are supporting the mismatched thuggish looking armed individuals who have seized police buildings etc in slaviansk?

they are a far cry from the expertly-outfitted russian-speaking soldiers who invaded crimea. These look more like local activists. Who would be behind them?

no use for the anti-vlad contingent on here to reply putin=evil. There looks to be another faction agitating in eastern ukraine that's not moscow, not kiev ... but i don't know what it could be ... wondering if these are criminals' goons? somehow involved with the trafficking in drugs, arms, weapons, stolen cars, prostitution & organized crime between asia & europe?

persons on here who have visited ukraine or who have friends & relatives there must feel so incredibly badly for the ordinary peace-loving citizens of that region. For all their hopes & aspirations. Even canadians with no connections feel badly. In the videos, we keep seeing their trusting, hopeful faces, in the city squares. As in egypt, as in syria, as in turkey, as in kurdistan. We are so fortunate to live here in canada.


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> do you know who are supporting the mismatched thuggish looking armed individuals who have seized police buildings etc in slaviansk?
> 
> they are a far cry from the expertly-outfitted russian-speaking soldiers who invaded crimea. These look more like local activists. Who would be behind them?
> .


Why do you think any organization should stand behind them? Russian (former Soviet) people are very politically pro-active, they can find leaders and form organiozations by themself... I was witness and a little bit participated by myself in such anti-communist organizations in mid-late 80's.... also think that majority of guys have army experience, as military service was mandatory... many fighted on Serbian side, against Chechya etc...


----------



## GoldStone

humble_pie said:


> thomps4416 do you know who are supporting the mismatched thuggish looking armed individuals who have seized police buildings etc in slaviansk?
> 
> they are a far cry from the expertly-outfitted russian-speaking soldiers who invaded crimea. These look more like local activists. Who would be behind them?


HP, the article below offers a plausible analysis as to what is going in Slaviansk.

Are Russian troops in eastern Ukraine? (Some, probably, but I don’t think that’s really the point)
http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.c...ably-but-i-dont-think-thats-really-the-point/


----------



## humble_pie

thankx goldstone, those are the kind of sharp-eyed details i was looking for. Even before i posted i was thinking that criminals in eastern ukraine would be fairly close to their counterparts in russia ... who in turn are well-known to the kremlin ...

upthread u can see thomps thinking out loud that ukraine will slide east, in pieces, when western money gives out. This might take a year, more or less, thomps writes.

although the US kept south vietnam going for so many years. Something like 30 years give or take. From dienbienphu to the fall of saigon. There are so many open questions for the ukraine.

even without answers, i do believe that this story is the heartbeat that is most likely to be the one that could, any day, break western bull/bubble markets.


----------



## andrewf

andrewf said:


> Are we pretending that these are not Russian agents trying to destabilize eastern Ukraine to give Putin a pretext to annex more Ukrainian territory?


Like I said last week.


----------



## gibor365

Joke from russian facebook translated by google
_Meet Russian President Vladimir Putin and President Shimon Peres.
- Volodya, and you just do not have Jewish roots?
- Why do you think, Simon? 
- Because even for a Jew to force Americans to pay $ 5 billion for joining the Crimea to Russia - this is brilliant! 
_


----------



## gibor365




----------



## andrewf

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine continues


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## Toronto.gal

With the election now just 40 days away [if it will take place at all], the climate of fear and intimidation had to get worse.


----------



## andrewf

Here's the Forbes article referred to in the Macleans piece. Seems Russia's propagandists are economizing on actors. The same guy plays an innocent bystander, a German spy and a pediatric surgeon. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...ifferent-people-spy-bystander-heroic-surgeon/


----------



## Toronto.gal

I said last month on my very 1st post here back on March 18th, that with Putin's rationale that he was merely protecting the ethnic Russian population, Crimea was just the beginning, not the top prize.

Some good points in this article re: Russia & Turkey: [that thief Erdoğan is quite a delusional megalomaniac & POS also].

*'Most observers agree the president is trying to restore Russia's power and influence in neighboring countries that was lost after the demise of the Soviet Union and that these efforts to build a "new order" are based on a combination of revanchism, distorting history and bending international law. There is, however, a growing number of Russia-watchers that claim the past and present territorial disputes are only one part of Putin's much larger, deliberately anti-Western agenda.'*
http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist/joost-lagendijk_344793_erdogans-and-putins-anti-westernism.html

This is Applebaum's mentioned article:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...anti_western_power_with_a_dark_vision_of.html


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> I said last month on my very 1st post here back on March 18th, that with Putin's rationale that he was merely protecting the ethnic Russian population, Crimea was just the beginning, not the top prize.


Not sure about it, but for sure US doesn't give a sh%$ about people who lives in Ukraine.

btw, reading comments on odnoklssniki.ru (russian version of facebook), I didn't see so high waive of russian partiotism in my lifetime


----------



## HaroldCrump

gibor said:


> Not sure about it, but for sure US doesn't give a sh%$ about people who lives in Ukraine.


_*The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want U.S. to intervene*_

See where some Americans placed Ukraine at, incl. Canada and parts of the US itself :rolleyes2:


----------



## andrewf

I saw that earlier. I take a lot of those guesses as 'I don't know's. Maybe they didn't give people the option to say so, and people made deliberately poor guesses. At least, I can hope that's the case. An alarming percentage of Americans also believe in literal creationism.


----------



## Nemo2

^^ One has to wonder how many respondents were 'leg pullers'........if I were asked, on one of these annoying 'surveys', I'd likely say Ukraine was right next to Atlantis.


----------



## gibor365

HaroldCrump said:


> _*The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want U.S. to intervene*_
> 
> See where some Americans placed Ukraine at, incl. Canada and parts of the US itself :rolleyes2:


It's perfectly normal....considering Gallop's survey when 25% of Americans thought that Sunn revolves around Earth  
In Canada is not better, from our personal experience, CAA guys and Pearson check-in guys didn't know that country named Georgia exist (my wife was born there) 

Do you remember Borat`s showsÉ! IMHO, for north americans Ukraine or Kazahstan doesn`t make much difference  
P.S. I`m not talking about this forum where guys are much smarted than average N. American


----------



## humble_pie

it's true that gibor did talk seriously upthread about russian intervention in the state of Georgia USA.

the russkies landed right next to Atlantis ... err, Atlanta ...


----------



## humble_pie

that's 2 posters on here, on just one page, only a few messages apart, who are quoting themselves.

let's remember, as the uprisings in ukraine continue, that there are many diverse points of view represented in this thread. 

momentary success/failure in the uprisings is going to devolve back & forth. Now thugs will fight; now kiev will fight back; now russia will push; now the west will warn or even intervene; now airports will become battlegrounds; now propaganda will spew out of washington & moscow ...

there will be countless opportunities for posters on here to quote themselves. Every thug that burns a vehicle tire somewhere in the ukraine, there's somebody on here who will be able to say Ya Ya I Told You So.

let's not. It sounds smug.

i wonder whether putin's proposal of a ukrainian federation might work. Would eastern ukraine then degenerate into a kind of Somalia? a broken state ruled by warlords, thugs & goons? how would ordinary good citizens of the region be helped to move out of harm's way? how could they be evacuated or relocated? does the world want another lawless state trafficking in contraband, including illegal radioactive uranium?


----------



## underemployedactor

andrewf said:


> Seems Russia's propagandists are economizing on actors. The same guy plays an innocent bystander, a German spy and a pediatric surgeon.


Figures. Every producer is double casting these days...


----------



## Toronto.gal

humble_pie said:


> that's 2 posters on here, on just one page, only a few messages apart, who are quoting themselves. *let's not. It sounds smug.
> *


How's my post #635 smug? You're being unfair in making such a conclusion. 

I was simply emphasizing what I have believed all along, and I'm certainly not alone [outside the forum anyway]. I was very clear about my thoughts regarding this crisis & Putin's involvement. Not only I have repeated myself, but others have done exactly the same with respect to their POVs; how exactly is that different from quoting oneself? 

The 'indefatiguable' opinion of others does not bother you as they are closer to your own POV, right? 

I'm indefatigable, just like gibor, but not offensive in the least. 

Anyhow, I'll write what I want; I'm outspoken, but never offensive.


----------



## Nemo2

As a child, (although I didn't then understand the significance of it), I recall the Berlin Airlift.......nowadays US warship(s) in international waters are buzzed with impunity.............different times, different president.


----------



## andrewf

What's awful is the people rejoicing about Ukraine's descent into conflict, and Putin's role in it, for nationalistic reasons.


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> btw, reading comments on odnoklssniki.ru (russian version of facebook), I didn't see so high waive of russian partiotism in my lifetime


Of course, if majority of Russians in Russia think like you, his popularity should be closer to that of Kim Jong Un, and not a mere 80%. Question is, how long will it last?

Just over a year ago, it was at an all time low, no? When was it as high as today, if you exclude the energy boom days, or would you like to give Putin credit for that as well? It was in 08 during the Georgia–Russia crisis, so why surprised at present approval rating which seems to be the same as in 08? 

Russians like Putin's aggressive style; it worked well for Erdogan's party in last month's election as well, even despite historic allegations of corruption/his abusive language [calling his people bloodsucking vampires, viruses and parasites, etc.]. 

Approval rating was above 80% in Aug./Sept./08 - below chart obviously needs a little updating. :rolleyes2:










*Edit:* A belated Chag Sameach.


----------



## underemployedactor

I think the Council of Europe made a grave error in suspending the Russian delegation. Discussion and compromise are the only solution to this political Gordian knot and for the Council to take sides closes one of the most important avenues for a peaceful solution. Just my 2 cents. Oh, and don't buy Gazprom just yet...


----------



## Toronto.gal

underemployedactor said:


> Oh, and don't buy Gazprom just yet...


Did not!

PACE's 'Resolution 1990' did not exactly end political dialogue.

*13.* The Assembly strongly condemns the violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity by the
Russian Federation, and considers that such a flagrant violation by a Council of Europe member State of its
obligations and commitments requires a strong signal of disapproval.

*14.* However, the Assembly believes that political dialogue should remain the most privileged way to find
compromise, and there should be no return to the pattern of the Cold War. Suspension of the credentials of the
Russian Delegation would make such a dialogue impossible, while the Assembly constitutes a good platform
for keeping the Russian delegation accountable on the basis of Council of Europe’s values and principles. The
Parliamentary Assembly has the power and the possibility in this veritable crisis to confront face-to-face one of
its member States – the Russian Federation – with questions and facts and to demand answers and
accountability 

*15. *In consequence, in order to mark its condemnation and disapproval of the Russian Federation's actions
with regard to Ukraine, the Assembly resolves to suspend the following rights of the delegation of the Russian
Federation until the end of the 2014 session:

*- 15.1.* voting rights;
*- 15.2.* right to be represented in the Bureau of the Assembly, the Presidential Committee and the Standing Committee;
*- 15.3.* right to participate in election observation missions.

http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Doc/XrefViewPDF.asp?FileID=20882&Language=EN

*Russia's response:* Russia would consider terminating its membership of the assembly. A decision would be made in "the next two or three weeks", Pushkov said.

'Several of his colleagues launched a venomous attack on European countries that had moved to punish Russia. Some Europeans had adopted a "pathologically biased approach" and had treated Russia – a "great country" – in a scornful and condescending manner. "Since arriving here a year and a half ago I haven't heard a nice word said about the Russian Federation," one complained.
Pushkov declined a request to speak in English, although he did answer one question in French. "We speak Russian," he said defiantly. He accused the United States, not a member of the assembly, of adopting double standards, after bombing Belgrade in the 1990s and invading Iraq. "It [the US] doesn't have a moral right to comment on our behaviour," Pushkov said.


----------



## humble_pie

amazingly positive news at the end of Day One of the top-level ukraine peace talks in Geneva.

a consensus blueprint for immediate positive peaceful action has emerged, now everybody saying if only they will all act upon it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27072351

i still believe that east ukraine thugs & goons are on their own, as much beyond the control of moscow as beyond the control of kiev. Thugs are thugs, anywhere, everywhere.

who's going to go into the government buildings, disarm the thugs & drive em out of the buildings? according to the new agreement, they're to be given amnesty, but first they have to lay down arms, scram, beat it ...

some of the ukraine military actions would be comical in another situation. Gilbert & Sullivan operetta comical.

couple of days ago a convoy of six armoured vehicles filled with ukrainian soldiers was advancing upon an east ukraine city. Local militia goons overwhelmed the convoy. 

not a shot was fired. All the ukrainian soldiers promptly surrendered. The convoy continued to rumble on towards the city, with the militia goons sitting triumphantly on top of the trucks.


btw speaking as a resident of quebec, i do understand the place where alexei pushkov is speaking from:



Toronto.gal said:


> ... Russia would consider terminating its membership of the assembly. A decision would be made in "the next two or three weeks", Pushkov said.
> 
> 'Several of his colleagues launched a venomous attack on European countries that had moved to punish Russia. Some Europeans had adopted a "pathologically biased approach" and had treated Russia – a "great country" – in a scornful and condescending manner. "Since arriving here a year and a half ago I haven't heard a nice word said about the Russian Federation," one complained.
> 
> Pushkov declined a request to speak in English, although he did answer one question in French. "We speak Russian," he said defiantly.
> 
> He accused the United States, not a member of the assembly, of adopting double standards, after bombing Belgrade in the 1990s and invading Iraq. "It [the US] doesn't have a moral right to comment on our behaviour," Pushkov said.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Well, it seems that everybody is repeating [quoting] themselves with what they believe.

'Moscow scolded Washington for treating Russia like a "guilty schoolboy" following their agreement in Geneva on Thursday.'

No surprise that Geneva's accord has been dismissed by the so called pro-Russian separatists, saying they are not bound by any of it, but then again, who expected a rapid implementation of the agreement at this point so close to the elections? 

*The 5 key points:
*
- All sides must refrain from any violence, intimidation or provocative actions. The participants strongly condemned and rejected all expressions of extremism, racism and religious intolerance, including anti-semitism.

- All illegal armed groups must be disarmed; all illegally seized buildings must be returned to legitimate owners; all illegally occupied streets, squares and other public places in Ukrainian cities and towns must be vacated.

- Amnesty will be granted to protestors and to those who have left buildings and other public places and surrendered weapons, with the exception of those found guilty of capital crimes.

- It was agreed that the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission should play a leading role in assisting Ukrainian authorities and local communities in the immediate implementation of these de-escalation measures wherever they are needed most, beginning in the coming days. The U.S., E.U. and Russia commit to support this mission, including by providing monitors.

- The announced constitutional process will be inclusive, transparent and accountable. It will include the immediate establishment of a broad national dialogue, with outreach to all of Ukraine’s regions and political constituencies, and allow for the consideration of public comments and proposed amendments.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Btw, did anyone listen to parts of Putin's marathon Q&A session? 

'We have received over two million questions so far, and we're going to hit a new record; *lots of messages really simple, like thank you for Crimea*.......On the 17th of Feb., up to the Olympics, nobody would actually think that Crimea would be part of Russia [right, very believable], and that people would have to face tanks in the east of Ukraine, and these tanks would be sent from the Kyiv government.' 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PyEspLz8UQ
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...77b4a2-c635-11e3-8b9a-8e0977a24aeb_story.html

IMHO, another interesting article by Ms. Applebaum:

'But in the meantime the Kremlin may settle for disrupting Ukraine's presidential elections, scheduled for May 25th, or for destabilizing Ukraine's shaky provisional government, perhaps forcing an economic collapse. The Russians may hope to provoke a civil war, or something that appears to be a civil war, which would then require a Russian "peacekeeping mission"...*old-fashioned Sovietization plus slick modern media - is genuinely new*, so much so that is fair to say we are witnessing a new kind of war, and a new kind of invasion.' 

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...s-a-new-kind-of-warfare-with-an-old-pedigree/

*Maskirovka*









To think that I once supported the current POTUS. :disillusionment:


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> To think that I once supported the current POTUS. :disillusionment:


Me, I'm amazed that _anybody_ was unable to see through him after his first appearance onstage. :eek2:


----------



## Toronto.gal

^ I'm no millennial, but you're older/wiser.


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> ^ I'm no millennial, but you're older/wiser.


Older anyway. :biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

what is it exactly that you 2 would like the potus to do about ukraine right now?

would you like him to invade? issue a warning that either they surrender the seized buildings right now or else generalissimo supremo sweetie love is going to send in the F18s?

please notice that this is not a repeat quote selfie each:


----------



## humble_pie

Nemo2 said:


> Me, I'm amazed that _anybody_ was unable to see through him after his first appearance onstage. :eek2:


what, u didn't like him when he was a back-of-the-yards civil rights lawyer in chicago?


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> what is it exactly that you 2 would like the potus to do about ukraine right now?


It isn't so much what he should/could _do_ now........but rather that Putin recognized his inherent weakness(es) and acted accordingly while he chose to lay dormant during his previous tenure(s) as president, (or when Medvedev pulled a Lurleen Wallace and acted as proxy).


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> what, u didn't like him when he was a back-of-the-yards civil rights lawyer in chicago?


I cannot envision liking him under any circumstances.


----------



## humble_pie

Nemo2 said:


> I cannot envision liking him under any circumstances.



never mind *like.* This is not a situation where it matters in the least whether you personally have or have not a liking, a fondness or even a little tickle for the potus.

what is it, exactly, that you would want obama to do otherwise in the ukraine situation? please be specific.

or is it that you prefer telling us over & over & over again how vewy much you dislike the guy.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> It isn't so much what he should/could _do_........but rather that *Putin recognized his inherent weakness(es) and acted accordingly* while he chose to lay dormant during his previous tenure(s) as president, (or when Medvedev pulled a Lurleen Wallace and acted as proxy).


You understood exactly what I meant; was not talking about starting a war at all.

As mentioned previously [as did others], those who should have been alert, were asleep at the wheel. Hard to believe that even Sarah Palin had been more awake and aware than thought. 

What global events has Mr. Obama been able to influence, say since he won the presidential election 2nd time around, after having had some experience? On foreign policy matters, in which the US should have led [and for obvious reasons], it has done so from behind. How exactly has Obama engaged the world? He can't even decide on the Keystone XL Pipeline, after how many years, 4, 5, 6?! But of course, being election year, who had realistically expected anything different in 2014?

Speaking of elections, it will be interesting to see the results of the midterm congressional elections, and in just a little over 6 months, and what they will say [or not], about Obama's failed foreign policy. 

Lots that Obama and the EU could do. For example, 'The Magnitsky Act' comes to mind, the one that former US ambassador to Moscow, Mr. Matlock was criticizing last month, saying: 'The Magnitsky Act, which singled out Russia for human rights violations as if there were none of comparable gravity elsewhere.' In fact, it should be more effective than it is.

I think everyone who wishes to participate here, should be able to agree/disagree & have their say. There are plenty of repetitious statements all over the forum, and of far less importance. At least there aren't many participating in this repetitious thread. :fatigue:


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> what is it, exactly, that you would want obama to do otherwise in the ukraine situation? please be specific.


To iterate.....it is not what Obama might/could do _now_, but rather the fact that his weakness has likely been the major fomentation catalyst behind this entire scenario.


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> Hard to believe that even Sarah Palin had been more awake and aware than thought.


 I don't think that Palin has been wrong on too many issues......however, she _has_ been subjected to Alinsky rules #5 & #12 to the extent that, for many/most, her supposed obliviousness has become a parroted 'truism'.



Toronto.gal said:


> What global events has Mr. Obama been able to influence, say since he won the presidential election 2nd time around, after having had some experience? On foreign policy matters, in which the US should have led [and for obvious reasons], *it has done so from behind*.


Alinsky Rule #10: _“If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive."_ (At least in the eyes of one's acolytes.)



Toronto.gal said:


> How exactly has Obama engaged the world? He can't even decide on the Keystone XL Pipeline


 Oh the decision has long since been made......(unless extreme internal pressure forces an approval).....right now, and for some time, its announcement is subject to procrastination disguised as contemplation, in the hope that it'll disappear from 'public consciousness', (if there is such a thing).



Toronto.gal said:


> Speaking of elections, it will be interesting to see the results of the midterm congressional elections, and in just a little over 6 months, and what they will say [or not], about Obama's failed foreign policy.


More likely, I think, that the outcome will be influenced by domestic 'issues', (or, with the ongoing help of the MSM, chimeras masquerading as issues....e.g. the _supposed_ Republican 'War on Women').



Toronto.gal said:


> I think everyone who wishes to participate here, should be able to agree/disagree & have their say. There are plenty of repetitious statements all over the forum, and of far less importance.


 I have never thought/indicated otherwise. :encouragement:


----------



## Nemo2

Pondering the much repeated "What should POTUS do now?" question.......it's kinda like the guy who's painted himself into a corner asking the same thing.......the current situation is the aftermath of previous miscalculations and is now unsolvable.......perhaps Deus Ex Machina is the answer. :biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

Nemo2 said:


> To iterate.....it is not what Obama might/could do _now_, but rather the fact that his weakness has likely been the major fomentation catalyst behind this entire scenario.



that's it? you have no better argument than to mumble on about how barack obama "likely" caused the invasion of crimea although you have no supporting details to add?

that's like saying canadian prime minister william lyon mackenzie king "likely" caused world war II ... because he said & did nothing to prevent it.

did german chancellor angela merkel, british prime minister david cameron, french president françois hollande, canadian prime minister stephen harper, NATO secretary general anders fogh rasmussen, NATO uber generalissimo philip sweetlove plus the heads of government of 23 other NATO member nations - did even one of these illustrious leaders ever warn that russia was about to invade crimea in order to secure its naval base & prevent NATO from gaining a foothold?

there was not even a single peep from the NATO brass, which is especially disgraceful, given that they are spying up & down the entire eastern europe/russia border night & day.

where were all these world leaders when they should have been shutting down the 2014 russian olympics as a warning to stifle russian ambition? why, there they were at Sochi on russia's black sea coast, or there were their top right-hand representatives, only 2 short months ago, fawning & slobbering over vladimir putin like he was a movie star.

it's not realistic to pretend that obama was the only one who missed the facts. It's not reasonable to try to resurrect crypto-fascists like sarah palin as authentic or even serious prophets.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> *1.* his weakness has likely been the major fomentation catalyst behind this entire scenario.
> *2.* I don't think that Palin has been wrong on too many issues
> *3.* Oh the decision has long since been made......(unless extreme internal pressure forces an approval)
> *4.* More likely, I think, that the outcome will be influenced by domestic 'issues'...


*1.* Could not agree more, and IMHO, exactly for that reason, he's given us the legitimate right to repeat his name & role in this. 

*2.* I'll disagree! It was simply impossible for me, not to [mostly] tune her out, but that's not to say that she did not have her bright moments.

*3.* As Harper said, 'It’s clearly another punt.' More in the next point.

*4.* Ofc, a larger % will care about domestic issues [unlike previous years], however, foreign policy will also play a role, especially if we see more weakness.

Also, some issues, such as climate, are domestic as well as foreign, but in general, I'm already wondering about the Nov. elections, and how the results might affect Obama's 2nd term policies [domestic/foreign]. Given the current numbers, the race should be close, at least for the Senate. 

"..a factor that political strategists call* “the environment:”* Obama suffering lagging public approval, the nation's economy undergoing a slow recovery, and polls showing voters closely divided over which party’s candidates they’re likely to back in November." 

"Republicans need to gain *six additional seats to take control of the Senate*." - This is because currently the Democrats control it with 55 vs 45 seats [an increase of just 2 seats from 2012], but if for example, they were to lose 6 seats in Nov., that would drop them to 49 seats vs Republican's 51 in such a scenario; another words, at 49 seats, the VP's ability to cast his tie-breaking vote would be lost, so if the Republicans need 6 to control the Senate, the Democrats need a loss of no greater than 5 to remain in control [55 - 5 + 1VP vote = 51]. How close is that? The House is likely not in danger of going to the Democrats considering they are behind by 33 seats. Anyhow, we can prognosticate all we like, as 1 week is a lifetime in politics, let alone 1/2 year, but what seems easier to predict, is that Obama's last years in office won't be easy nor transformational. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...of-taking-u-s-senate-rise-as-map-expands.html

Back to Russia, punishing the revanchist power, is a job of not just the POTUS at this point. 

A book for this summer: *'The Limits of Partnership'* - by Angela Stent 

*At 8:31:* Russia is a key country for 3 main reasons: location/nukes/UNSC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0MSCqG28KQ


----------



## andrewf

Putin also invaded Georgia in 2008 because Putin was emboldened by Obama's weakness. True story. If only a Republican had been president at the time, it would never have become an issue.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> Putin also invaded Georgia in 2008 because Putin was emboldened by Obama's weakness. True story. If only a Republican had been president at the time, it would never have become an issue.


no, not a true story in the least

rather, a foolish fiction

in march 2008 when hostilities over georgia broke out, Republican george dubya bush was president of the US of A.

barack obama did not commence his presidency until inauguration day, january 20 2009.


----------



## humble_pie

Nemo2 said:


> Pondering the much repeated "What should POTUS do now?" question.......it's kinda like the guy who's painted himself into a corner asking the same thing.......the current situation is the aftermath of previous miscalculations and is now unsolvable



there are plenty of choices & i don't see the problem as unsolveable, although it is gritty. Fortunately there are some signs that US representative Kerry is a skilful diplomat.

i'm struck by how calm & resolute putin appears to be in all his interviews. He says he doesn't want NATO building a military base in ukraine, so close to russia's all-important seaport at sevastopol. It appears that the russian population endorses this idea. It also appears that many crimeans support this idea.

putin says that the steady increase in NATO members all around the borders of russia in recent years - from the original 5 members to 28 members - including the far east, where mongolia, japan & new zealand are either being actively recruited right now or else they have already signed up as NATO partners - putin says this is a betrayal of western promises made to russia that such a NATO buildout would not occur.

upthread on here you have an extraordinarily knowledgeable poster documenting how & when poland & roumania recently joined NATO, along with most of the eastern bloc nations, over the past decade.

as gibor says, how long do you think the US would tolerate a russian-directed armed military alliance with bases, airborne spyships & fighter aircraft on instant call strung out all across the canada-US border?

i for one think that putin's suggestion of a ukraine federation is legitimate. It's one way of bringing relative peace to a region that's full of cross cuts. I believe that putin is sincere about this idea even though he's speaking these days with extra-long forked tongue.

i don't see why the US can't accept that they're not going to get that forward NATO base in eastern ukraine. They're not going to be able to roll back crimea. They're not even going to get a 100% solid pro-western government in ukraine.

in the meantime, one has to admit that putin is an unrivalled master of guerrilla tactics. It's the first time i've ever heard of stealth guerrilla fighting being carried out, from the top down, by a major nation.


----------



## sags

It isn't surprising that Ukrainians don't want a US base on their soil......as it would make them a target in any hostilities, and once a foothold is gained the US never leaves. See Guantanamo Bay and the island of Diego Garcia.

As I see it, Barack Obama had his hands tied from the beginning of his term in office. The US populace is war weary, having spent so many years involved in expensive and fruitless wars, courtesy of G.W. Bush and the Republicans.

As to Nato, as noted by a guest on CTV's question period today..........countries are supposed to contribute 2% of their GDP to Nato for military upkeep......but many countries haven't..........including Canada.

It is doubtful Nato could manage any effective response, due to lack of funding and the misfit of military equipment between participating nations.

The Europeans live right there........let them handle it..........or learn to live with it.


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> no, not a true story in the least
> 
> rather, a foolish fiction


I do believe Andrew was being facetious. :biggrin: (Although, at the time Dubya _was_ approaching lame duck status.)


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> Fortunately there are some signs that US representative Kerry is a skilful diplomat.


There are those who aren't so sure:

http://www.thenation.com/article/176979/john-kerry-terrible-secretary-state



> Four decades after his Vietnam experience, he has achieved what will undoubtedly be the highest post of his lifetime: secretary of state. And he’s looked like a bumbler first class. Has he also been—once again—a true man of his time, of a moment in which American foreign policy, as well as its claim to global moral and diplomatic leadership, is in remarkable disarray?
> 
> In his nine months in office, Kerry's State Department has one striking accomplishment to its name. It has achieved a new level of media savvy in promoting itself and plugging its highest official as a rock star, a world leader in his own right (complete with photo-ops and sophisticated image-making). In the meantime, the secretary of state has been stumbling and bloviating from one crisis to the next, one debacle to another, surrounded by the well-crafted imagery of diplomatic effectiveness.


----------



## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> no, not a true story in the least
> 
> rather, a foolish fiction
> 
> in march 2008 when hostilities over georgia broke out, Republican george dubya bush was president of the US of A.
> 
> barack obama did not commence his presidency until inauguration day, january 20 2009.


Thanks HP. I guess I should have used a smiley or something.


----------



## humble_pie

nah, better without a smiley

so funny, just like your wonderful explanation of TERs


----------



## andrewf

</snark>

Closed it for you.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> There are those who aren't so sure:
> 
> http://www.thenation.com/article/176979/john-kerry-terrible-secretary-state


Good article, thank you!

I guess Obama is pushing Kerry a bit, to perhaps win the farcical 8 million SEK Nobel Peace Prize [2013 figures], and in doing so hopefully not having to share it with either peacenik Putin [irony]/Snowden [irony x2], or even with José Mujica for pot legalization - endorsed by the Drugs Peace Institute. :02.47-tranquillity:

Here are 2 articles about the 2 presidents in discussion:

- A president who has never looked comfortable dealing with the world outside the U.S. now finds he can't even maintain a reasonable relationship with Canada, probably [probably???] the friendliest and most undemanding of U.S.allies...........And Vladimir Putin considers this a power he can't take seriously? 
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ay-is-another-sign-of-a-paralyzed-presidency/

- A Tsar is [or rather was] Born:
http://content.time.com/time/specia...ticle/0,28804,1690753_1690757_1690766,00.html

And oh, when will your NATO/Obama theses & defense be ready for CMF publishing? :biggrin:


----------



## Toronto.gal

Part II about the presidents.........

Like Mr. Obama or not, he is a lame-duck president, or as gibor stated, 'mostly a talking head.' 

Anyone who believes otherwise, seems to have forgotten his mostly credulous & indecisive style since Jan. 20/09. And anyone who thinks that this weakness [or however u wish to describe it] over the years, has not in fact helped in giving the expert KGB & master of lies & propaganda, and the most devious type of provokatsiya [staged crisis], the so called 'green light' to invade, is giving Obama more credit than deserved. This is the kind of provokatsiya that Applebaum most recently described in the article I posted upthread, as 'masked warfare', and the now combination of 'old-fashioned Sovietization plus slick modern media.' And forget about comparing Obama with what the other Western leaders have or have not done, as who's the leader of the only superpower, after all? 

Forgetting domestic issues, what did Obama accomplish on the global stage, the capture of bin Laden? The end of the Iraq War? He neither started nor won that war; ending it did not translate into victory for anyone. And despite his 2009 Nobel Peace Prize, he's not exactly a peacenik either; he started/ended military intervention in Libya after receiving this Prize; has had a huge drone campaign numbering in the hundreds last I read, and just in Yemen, as examples. But he can certainly take credit for having been much busier lecturing the only true democracy in the region [Israel], yet failed to even take sides on Egypt, Turkey, Syria, et al. 

I heard this quoted on The Agenda last week: *'Russia is an arsonist, pretending to be a fire safety inspector'.* Putin's tranlation: pretending to show brotherly/sisterly love.

Czesław Miłosz: *'Learn to predict a fire with unerring precision. Then burn the house down to fulfill the prediction.'* 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czesław_Miłosz

I'm no McCain fan, but he made some valid points in the NYT op-ed article - 'Obama Has Made America Look Weak.'


----------



## m3s

I'm not sure any of us have the slightest clue. For all we know Obama's puppeteers could have informally agreed to the annexation of Crimea beforehand. It's not like we were going to setup camp in Sevastopol anytime soon. I can't remember any General in recent history argue that we need more Cold War tactics. Quite the opposite. We've been working hand in hand with Russian forces since 9/11. Remember Chris Hadfield falling to Earth in a Soyuz space capsule last year? What do I know, maybe it is just a coincidence that military spending was about to hit an all time low. I'd never seen my US comrades think twice about spending money before. Now they have justification to spend again and a lot of potential sales to new NATO members.


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ay-is-another-sign-of-a-paralyzed-presidency/


Against Keystone...but _for_:

http://www.newscientist.com/article...-unique-american-grasslands.html#.U1V11_ldU2O



> Christopher Wright and Michael Wimberly of South Dakota State University in Brookings analysed satellite images of five states in the western corn belt. They found that 530,000 hectares of grassland disappeared under blankets of maize and soya beans between 2006 and 2011. The rate was fastest in South Dakota and Iowa, with as much as 5 per cent of pasture becoming cropland each year.
> 
> The trend is being driven by rising demand for the crops, partly through incentives to use them as fuels instead of food.
> 
> The switch from meadows to crops is causing a crash in populations of ground-nesting birds. One of the US's most important breeding grounds for wildfowl, an area called the Prairie Pothole Region, is also at risk, with South Dakota's crop fields now within 100 metres of the wetlands. "Half of North American ducks breed here," says Wright.


However.....I tend to disagree with National Post article, since I believe everything he touches (or avoids) ties in to the much failed ideology into which he has been inculcated since childhood.


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> - A Tsar is [or rather was] Born:
> http://content.time.com/time/specia...ticle/0,28804,1690753_1690757_1690766,00.html


Diminutive or not, it appears he isn't someone to cross lightly.....(perhaps even more so because he _is_ diminutive.)


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## Feruk

Honestly, I don't understand why the US has any input on Ukraine. It's completely none of their business. The problem with the USA is they continue to jam their nose into other people's affairs. They don't understand that they are not a world police force and nobody wants them around. I can't believe people here complain that Obama is a "lame duck" president on foreign affairs... this is a good thing. Just too bad Kerry went from being a reasonable sounding man to a fool in a matter of two years.

For Ukrainians it's a tough position. You've either got the crooks in Kiev or supporting the Russians. Two bad choices.


----------



## HaroldCrump

Feruk said:


> Just too bad Kerry went from being a reasonable sounding man to a fool in a matter of two years.


In which alternative universe was Kerry ever a "reasonable sounding man"?
Just be thankful he is not President...yet.


----------



## Nemo2

HaroldCrump said:


> In which alternative universe was Kerry ever a "reasonable sounding man"?
> Just be thankful he is not President...yet.


+1.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Feruk said:


> Honestly, I don't understand why the US has any input on Ukraine. It's completely none of their business. The problem with the USA is they continue to jam their nose into other people's affairs. They don't understand that they are not a world police force and nobody wants them around. I can't believe people here complain that Obama is a "lame duck" president on foreign affairs... this is a good thing. Just too bad Kerry went from being a reasonable sounding man to a fool in a matter of two years.
> 
> For Ukrainians it's a tough position. You've either got the crooks in Kiev or supporting the Russians. Two bad choices.


*“Great power involves great responsibility.”*

Surely you understand some of those responsibilities? There are valid reasons [and not] for US' global engagement, as the only superpower in a world of never-ending challenges and threats. As well, you must also have seen proof that cooperation & diplomacy alone do not always work in our complex & increasingly dangerous planet. You don't even need to have a solid understanding of geography/history/politics/international law, nor be 100 years old to know some of the important events of just the past century for proof of these complexities. What may appear a small & far away conflict to you, can in fact be anything but. It isn't as simplistic & selfish as you make it sound. 

You do believe in global leadership at all? If you do, who would you like to be the leader, the Russian Federation? Red China? Countries with double digit unemployment? A Third World Country? Who would you like as neighbour? 

Whether you approve of the US' ideology/power/vision or not [and yes, meddling also], the US will remain the only & unchallenged superpower for decades to come, and for good reason! As a read in a recent article that I posted here weeks ago, American leadership will continue because *'you can’t beat someone with no one.' *


----------



## Toronto.gal

HaroldCrump said:


> 1. In which alternative universe was Kerry ever a *"reasonable sounding man"?*
> 2. Just be thankful *he is not President...yet*.


1. Was wondering same. :02.47-tranquillity:

2. *Kerry:* "One of the joys of this job is I'm out of politics." 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ing-for-president-i-have-no-plans-whatsoever/

*Biden:* “My knowledge of foreign policy, my engagement with world leaders, my experience uniquely positions me to follow through on the agenda president Obama and I have of bringing up world peace in a way that is real and substantive. Whether she [Hillary] runs or not, will not affect my decision.”

*Hillary:* no need to quote, but we can guess about not only her candidacy, but also about how she'll differentiate herself from potential rivals.


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> *Hillary:* no need to quote, but we can guess about not only her candidacy, but also about how she'll differentiate herself from potential rivals.


Hillary? Who among her challengers has calmly braved sniper fire in Bosnia? Oh, wait........ah, what difference does it make?


----------



## Toronto.gal

^ Ms. Clinton simply 'misspoke' - In politics, memory should always match the videotape. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BfNqhV5hg4

This is even more true today: “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.” - Abraham Lincoln


----------



## Feruk

Toronto.gal:

Having been born and lived in the country directly west, I've got a strong understanding of the area. Modern day Ukraine is really nothing but an artificial "transitional zone" with half west leaning and half east. You've got an unelected government made up crooks and their cronies in Kiev which your superpower backs, and somehow the issues in east Ukraine are entirely Russia orchestrated (according to the media)?? Just like some of the African borders that the superpowers of the 19th century put together result in nothing but civil war, Ukraine should've fallen apart 10 years ago. Zoom in on Crimea. The area holds a referendum, asks for international monitors, a few EU countries send them, overwhelming support to leave Ukraine, and what? Your great superpower basically says those people have no right to self-determination. Usually when you have a rigged election, there are protests afterwards. Strange how we didn't see ANY of that, and you know the media would've been all over it. Now they're dabbling in east Ukraine where they also don't belong. Most likely all those regions will either become semi-autonomous or join Russia. All that the USA is doing is slowing down the process.

The USA isn't there to act as "world police", it's there to advance its' own foreign policy. Since the end of the Cold War, the policy's always been to isolate Russia. It started with adding Warsaw Pact countries to NATO, then Baltic countries, and continues today in Ukraine. Of course, Russia is no better and it's objectives in Ukraine are driven by it's own foreign policy. However, the Spider Man quote in your post doesn't work because the USA has no interest in helping Ukraine (east or west), or the greater good, but merely in further containing Russia.

I do believe in global leadership. In most conflicts, and ESPECIALLY this one, I'd like to see the Europeans providing leadership. Not the Americans. I always found it a little silly how the Americans want to prevent bullying in their schools, but don't see a link to their foreign policy.

Lastly, Russia is less than 4% of world GDP, so I think your propaganda driven implied reference to this being a Russian campaign of "lebensraum" does not compute.


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.” - Abraham Lincoln


Increasingly it appears that the group that can be fooled all the time forms a majority in many places.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Feruk said:


> Toronto.gal:
> 
> I think your propaganda driven implied reference to this being a Russian campaign of "lebensraum" does not compute.


My POVs aren't 'propaganda' of any sort, just opinions from readings, studies, plus I also have family history in that part of the world. But when one concludes such, and in what, your only 2nd post here [?], it's a waste of time to defend oneself, so let's agree to disagree, but also did agree on a few points you made. 

I will say though, that there are different kinds of political evil if you will, and yes, definitely I do believe that Putin = evil, but not once did I compare Putinism with Nazism. Putin's current show of fake fraternal love can't compare to that of Anschluss. The man hates weakness in himself only, and exactly why he's been invited to take advantage of the most important narcissist living in cloud cuckoo land [easier to write in English than in Schopenhauer' German]. 

IMHO, with respect to the collapse of the SU and what drives him, Putin spoke loud & clear in his very long 2005 speech, though he said it all in just a few words:

'Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century. As for the Russian nation, it became a genuine drama. Tens of millions of our co-citizens and compatriots found themselves outside Russian territory. Moreover, the epidemic of disintegration infected Russia itself.' 

And the US is not 'my' superpower, but that of the world whether they/we like it or not, though the US does indeed get damned when they don't, as you put it, 'jam their nose into other people's affairs.' There is no more influential power than the US, and the world often seems helpless without it. Again, many examples are found in history.


----------



## Feruk

I'm certainly not saying that your opinions are propaganda, mearly that they are likely derived from the propaganda presented to us in Western media. And while you never mentioned Nazism, you certainly did _hint_ at it. I'm just trying to say that America doesn't interfere in world conflicts out of the goodness of their heart, but rather their foreign policy is always for personal gain. When a country (or part of one) does something contradictory (like Crimean referendmum), it is painted in the media with a negative brush.

As for Putin's statement that you quoted... do you disagree with it? He's got a point.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Feruk said:


> *1.* And while you never mentioned Nazism, *you certainly did hint at it.*
> *2.* I'm just trying to say that *America doesn't interfere in world conflicts out of the goodness of their heart*, but rather their foreign policy is always for personal gain.
> *3.* When a country (or part of one) does something contradictory (like *Crimean referendmum), it is painted in the media with a negative brush.*
> *4.* As for Putin's statement that you quoted... do you disagree with it? He's got a point.


*1.* I'm not the hinter type; much prefer to speak my mind loud & clear, so no, I made no such hints since I don't believe in most of the Hitlerian comparisons that have been made between March, 2014/March, 1938 [and other cases as well]. Hence you misinterpreted. 

It's not enough to just compare the tactics & similarities of those events [yes, there are a few], but also the differences, which are more significant. 

*2.* And other countries do? Were Putin's interference in Iran/Syria for nothing but the public good?

*3.* Well, in cases of farcical & swift referendums, some of the comments by the media would seem apposite. Was Crimea, as former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Steven Pifer put it, ' the most blatant land grab in Europe since WWII'? - DA! 

*4.* There is some truth to it, but the point of posting it, was that it was quite telling then & now, especially when comparing it to his subsequent speeches, like the one given last month. For example, what particular word did the revanchist not use in the 2005 speech comparing to the 2014?

'It was only when Crimea ended up as part of a different country that Russia realised that it was not simply robbed, it was plundered.....However, the people could not reconcile themselves to this outrageous historical injustice.' 
http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889
*****************

*Gazprom says will meet rising gas demand in Europe*
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/22/gazprom-europe-idUSL6N0NE1UE20140422


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> *“Great power involves great responsibility.”*
> 
> Who would you like as neighbour?


Oh... a lot  Switzerland , Belgium, France, Holland, New Zealand, Australia....et cetera...et cetera


----------



## gibor365

As I expected earlier....those idiots will cause to a big war

US troops arrive in Poland for exercises across Eastern Europe amid Ukraine crisis.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...exercises-across-eastern-europe-amid-ukraine/

here they are : "golubi mira" = doves of peace


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> Oh... a lot  Switzerland , Belgium, France, Holland, New Zealand, Australia....et cetera...et cetera


Hey, look who's back. 

Who's stopping you droog?  

Btw, where is the largest tsunami of anti-Semitism? I'm asking as your list includes some of those.


----------



## Dave

Feruk said:


> The USA isn't there to act as "world police", it's there to advance its' own foreign policy. Since the end of the Cold War, the policy's always been to isolate Russia. It started with adding Warsaw Pact countries to NATO, then Baltic countries, and continues today in Ukraine.


Agreed.


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> Hey, look who's back.
> 
> Who's stopping you droog?
> 
> Btw, where is the largest tsunami of anti-Semitism? I'm asking as your list includes some of those.


Shalom havera  Just came back yeaterday from "Freedom Island" 

"largest tsunami of anti-Semitism"?! - where?! don't notice any of those in countries I listed ....
also, forgot to list, about Czechs - the best beer in the world! imho
...

also after retirement we're hoping to go long-term vacations 4-6 months annually in those and other countries....


----------



## gibor365

Dave said:


> Agreed.


difficult not to agree if even last US ambassador in CCCP was saying same thing....


----------



## gibor365

MoreMiles said:


> Well said. Too bad too many USA lovers do not share your view.
> 
> Can you imagine Germany doing that to their Nazi history?


Ukraine did it already! Shuhevich , Bandera got titles "Hero of Ukraine"! Disgusting!
Some former Baltic republics did the same....

btw, looking to some independend surveys, majority of Americans thinking that US should mind "their own business"


----------



## Toronto.gal

Dave said:


> Agreed.


Are you the same person whose previous contribution in this serious thread was that *'In North America, women are plagued by the obesity epidemic which is a huge turn off and many dress sloppy comparatively to Eastern European'?* :biggrin:


----------



## Feruk

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* I'm not the hinter type; much prefer to speak my mind loud & clear, so no, I made no such hints since I don't believe in most of the Hitlerian comparisons that have been made between March, 2014/March, 1938 [and other cases as well]. Hence you misinterpreted.
> 
> It's not enough to just compare the tactics & similarities of those events [yes, there are a few], but also the differences, which are more significant.
> 
> *2.* And other countries do? Were Putin's interference in Iran/Syria for nothing but the public good?
> 
> *3.* Well, in cases of farcical & swift referendums, some of the comments by the media would seem apposite. Was Crimea, as former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Steven Pifer put it, ' the most blatant land grab in Europe since WWII'? - DA!
> 
> *4.* There is some truth to it, but the point of posting it, was that it was quite telling then & now, especially when comparing it to his subsequent speeches, like the one given last month. For example, what particular word did the revanchist not use in the 2005 speech comparing to the 2014?


1. So um, which lessons from the last hundred years were you referring to that you believe are more similar? Since it's not 1938, it must be something else...
2. Agreed 100%. Everyone acts in their self interest. Hence why when I see what the media reports, all I see is American self interest. I betcha in Russia they see Russian self interest in the media.
3. Russia may be an opportunist, but they didn't create the opportunity. They merely took advantage. If this move was so unpopular, where are the mass protests that you know the media would be ALL over? It's not like journalists have been removed and the last 10 years have taught us that armed guards are not enough to prevent people from protesting.
4. Not really sure what you're arguing here. He took over a country that was a wreck (from a drunk like Yeltsin) and has since been trying to put it back together. Undeniable.


----------



## Feruk

Toronto.gal said:


> *'In North America, women are plagued by the obesity epidemic which is a huge turn off and many dress sloppy comparatively to Eastern European'?* :biggrin:


Now there's a quote I definitely agree with.


----------



## Toronto.gal

*gibor*: Shalom back at you. How was "Freedom Island"?  I reckon just perfect at this time of year. Anyway, welcome back to real demokratiya. :biggrin: 

*'where?! don't notice'* - that's the problem gibor, u don't notice them anywhere except in Kyiv. Btw, with respect to Putin's fabricated claims that those that launched 'pogroms & terror' there were the anti-Semites/nationalists/neo-Nazis & Ukranian fascists, here is the best response yet that I have read: 

'There is no specific action against Jews which is an outcome of the political crisis, said Liberman, a Russian-speaker who grew up in Moldova when it was a Soviet republic.
What there is, as happens to my regret in every country, is a phenomenon of anti-Semitism which is not necessarily linked to the political events but which, given the political events, of course receives unusual attention.'


----------



## gibor365

_that's the problem gibor, u don't notice them anywhere except in Kyiv_ not only in Kiev, but sorry, not in countries i listed... if you mean France, than in US much much more antisemitism ... just take a look at Borats videos or some police protected demosntration on neo-nazis in Michigan.... sometime "it's difficult to find a black cat in dark room...especially is cat is not there" 

...and please....please do not remind me "Liberman, a Russian-speaker " - he's one of the most corrupted israeli politicians and you know where I worked in Israel... also he's one of those fascists... I spent too much time "fighting" his party in Israel and don't want to discuss him here...

P.S.... and Cuba is perfect!!!! I think this was my 12th times there.... don't remember if I mentioned , but couple of years ago I met in resort amigo - bartender who studied with the same time in 1983 in university in Siberia


----------



## gibor365

Feruk said:


> Now there's a quote I definitely agree with.


It's true, but not only for girls  Just came from Cuban resort where was able to see guys from Italy, Belgium, Norway, Brazil, Argentina..... and you can distinguish those guys from Canadians almost imediately


----------



## HaroldCrump

gibor said:


> was able to see guys from Italy, Belgium, Norway, Brazil, Argentina


That came out wrong, didn't it?


----------



## gibor365

HaroldCrump said:


> That came out wrong, didn't it?


Let me tell in simple English  All fat guys in Cuba are Canadians


----------



## Beaver101

gibor said:


> Let me tell in simple English  All fat guys in Cuba are Canadians


 ... and rich too :highly_amused:


----------



## Toronto.gal

Feruk said:


> 1. So um, which lessons from the last hundred years were you referring to...
> 2. Russia may be an opportunist, but they didn't create the opportunity. They merely took advantage.
> 3. He took over a country that was a wreck (from a drunk like Yeltsin) and has since been trying to put it back together. Undeniable.


*1.* So um, my comment had nothing to do with any one single event. It had been in response to your comment that 'a lame-duck president was a good thing'; to which I responded that history [even just the last 100 years], has shown that the world needs global leadership, as it's a complex & dangerous world & getting more so. How did you interpret that to mean Putinism vs. Nazism?! The problem is that sometimes people read answers without paying attention to the questions. Anyhow, never mind, not important. You're forgiven. 

*2.* 'Merely took advantage'; you make it sound so justifiable.

*3.* I wasn't comparing Putin to Yeltsin. You would understand if you read both speeches [I won't do it for you].

*gibor:* I did not quote Liberman by accident, hihi, I just knew 1000% what your response would be. Oy vey, we'll forever disagree on this. :tongue-new:

I recall when last in Cuba [this was long time ago], seeing people from all the mentioned countries, which surprised me very much, particularly Argentina & Italy. I noticed los hombres, pero tu? :chuncky:


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> Let me tell in simple English  All fat guys in Cuba are Canadians


That's what Dave left out when he [not I] said that: ''In North America, women are plagued by the obesity epidemic....'


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> if you mean France...


As a matter of fact, Belgium & France have similar rates as Hungary.


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> As a matter of fact, Belgium & France have similar rates as Hungary.


I kinda confused what rates are you talking about.... We twice toured France for 3 weeks and everything was fine....

btw, Hungary was first foreigh country I visited (Ukraine doesn't count  ) in 1988... Very interesting country, but I felt anti-sovietical from locals


----------



## humble_pie

ah now we can see where this is going

all the slim people are supporting putin
all the fat people are supporting obamaCain

as for gender, Dave herself was a female
gibor u are still a male, right?
girls were not studying bartending together in siberia, once upon a time, long ago?

personally i think that Cuba should go in for medical tourism
should specialize in either transgender surgery
or else obesity treatment/fat farms


----------



## gibor365

btw, on way there and way back into Santa Clara airport i noticed for the first time passanger flights from/to Miami and Tampa.... Is embargo unofficially getting removed? No megusta lo!!!


----------



## Dave

gibor said:


> P.S.... and Cuba is perfect!!!! I think this was my 12th times there.... don't remember if I mentioned , but couple of years ago I met in resort amigo - bartender who studied with the same time in 1983 in university in Siberia


Welcome back gibor. Where in Cuba may I ask ? My favorite spot are the Cayos with their spotless beaches. We once met a bartender who studied nuclear engineering in the USSR and we all practiced our Russian  He had quite interesting stories to tell.


----------



## Feruk

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* So um, my comment had nothing to do with any one single event. It had been in response to your comment that 'a lame-duck president was a good thing'; to which I responded that history [even just the last 100 years], has shown that the world needs global leadership, as it's a complex & dangerous world & getting more so. How did you interpret that to mean Putinism vs. Nazism?! The problem is that sometimes people read answers without paying attention to the questions. Anyhow, never mind, not important. You're forgiven.
> 
> *2.* 'Merely took advantage'; you make it sound so justifiable.
> 
> *3.* I wasn't comparing Putin to Yeltsin. You would understand if you read both speeches [I won't do it for you].


1. I think the connection's obvious, but whatever, not gonna sit here and argue a moot point.
2. Justifiable? No, but let's get real here. The government in Kiev was toppled. What exactly would you have liked to see happen in Crimea? It's easy to criticize, but I don't honestly see how it could've ended differently.
3. I know you weren't. I was saying Putin has been primarily a good leader for his country. Yes he definitely has ambitions as per his previous speech, and the opportunity to act on some of them has arisen. So far the results have been better under him than Yeltsin for Russia.


----------



## Nemo2

Dave said:


> Where in Cuba may I ask ?


Since we've drifted off topic......what's the attraction with Cuba? I was there, once, ~42 years ago; saw no reason to go back......OTOH, the people next door to us have gone there about 9 years in a row, same place.......I don't get it.

Edit: Double checked....it was 40 years ago...Brezhnev arrived when we were there.


----------



## humble_pie

hi Dave my name is Bill. 

just plain Bill is fine
although i once had a girlfriend who used to call me wee willie

a nuclear engineer bartender would be ooh so thrilling. I can just imagine sipping my pink lady, watching it glow faintly, listening to the stories.

i'd practice my russian too. Of course i don't know a single word. But i'd be wearing my very best sweater.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Feruk said:


> I think the connection's obvious, but whatever....


The problem is always with people that think they are mind-readers. And if even after I repeated my response to you, you still say that you're right, and in doing so call me a liar [not in that exact word], then I was right, that it was indeed a waste of time to defend my comments to you, but I gave it a try at least. You came to this thread out of nowhere to immediately pick on my posts, saying things that I neither said nor hinted at.

However, let me tell you that if I had thought that Putin = Hitler, I would have had no problem whatsoever saying so, but I'm not that ignorant to believe so.

I invite people to re-read post #684, and tell me how I was comparing Crimea with Anschluss. As a matter of fact, Feruk brought '"lebensraum" in his later post #688. There had been plenty such comparisons made in the media, and how it probably got to his head in the 1st place.

#2 person on my ignore list. Poka.


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> i noticed for the first time passanger flights from/to Miami and Tampa.... Is embargo unofficially getting removed? No megusta lo!!!


This article might interest you:

Cuba’s keenness on outside investment stems from the second reason to reconsider the embargo. The regime’s fortunes are tied to those of Venezuela, which supplies Cuba with cheap oil in return for doctors, intelligence support and a splash of ideological credibility. But Venezuela’s economy is crumbling and its leftist government is in trouble, so Cuba needs a plan B in case it demands market prices for its oil. The choice is probably between another helpful oil producer (Russia, whisper some) and greater trade with the outside world. Small cracks in the embargo allowed $360m of exports from the United States to Cuba in 2013; that figure would zoom if restrictions were lifted.'

http://www.economist.com/news/leade...ime-change-americas-relations-cuba-if-not-now

Qué es lo que no te gusta? [lo = it en Español].


----------



## gibor365

Dave said:


> Welcome back gibor. Where in Cuba may I ask ? My favorite spot are the Cayos with their spotless beaches. We once met a bartender who studied nuclear engineering in the USSR and we all practiced our Russian  He had quite interesting stories to tell.


Thanks  We've been in Cayo Coco/Cayo Guilermo 5-6 times and also met some "Russian" Cubans, were bringing a lot of presents for them and they prepared for us special lobster dinner (only for our family), but last 4-5 times we went to Cayo santa Maria - beaches even better  and .... I was practicing Spanish


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> hi Dave my name is Bill.
> 
> just plain Bill is fine
> although i once had a girlfriend who used to call me wee willie
> 
> a nuclear engineer bartender would be ooh so thrilling. I can just imagine sipping my pink lady, watching it glow faintly, listening to the stories.
> 
> i'd practice my russian too. Of course i don't know a single word. But i'd be wearing my very best sweater.


I just can tell that definitely Cuba has the most educated bartenders in the world  where can you find bartenders who PhD to history or mathematics?! btw, it's very interesting to talk to them while sipping some Black label or Chivas


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> #2 person on my ignore list. Poka.


Number One I assume is Dr. Evil?!
T.gal, but it's US who has embargo against Cuba, Cuba doesn't has embargo against US, Cuba allows their citizen to use US good (every bartender has iPhone), watch US TV and so on.... but there is still criminal law in US that prohibits to consume Cuban goods for every American even in other country


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> I recall when last in Cuba [this was long time ago], seeing people from all the mentioned countries, which surprised me very much, particularly Argentina & Italy. I noticed los hombres, pero tu? :chuncky:


My wife noticed it and pointed to me  and I....should've agree with her  .... need go more to gym as mine 90kg for 182 sm looks too much compared to Europeans 

Nemo, Cuba is completely different now, after 1989 (when CCCP stop giving 5 bil $ every year, tourism in Cuba really got developed) and I doubt where you can find so beautiful beaches


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. Number One I assume is Dr. Evil?!
> 2. T.gal, but it's US who has embargo against Cuba....


*1.* No fictional characters go on that list. :untroubled:
*2.* I think u got 2 much sun & CR; or maybe it was those Cohiba Behikes. 

I didn't say anything about the embargo; it was the Economist. 

Buenas noches.


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* No fictional characters go on that list. :untroubled:
> *2.* I think u got 2 much sun & CR; or maybe it was those Cohiba Behikes.
> 
> I didn't say anything about the embargo; it was the Economist.
> 
> Buenas noches.


Than it's probably Economist had too much Rum


----------



## Nemo2

gibor said:


> I doubt where you can find so beautiful beaches


Naah...to paraphrase Mick Dundee, "That's a beach":










:wink:


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> 1) I'm not sure any of us have the slightest clue. For all we know Obama's puppeteers could have informally agreed to the annexation of Crimea beforehand ...
> 
> 2) We've been working hand in hand with Russian forces since 9/11. Remember Chris Hadfield falling to Earth in a Soyuz space capsule last year?
> 
> 3) What do I know, maybe it is just a coincidence that military spending was about to hit an all time low. I'd never seen my US comrades think twice about spending money before. Now they have justification to spend again and a lot of potential sales to new NATO members.



1) m3 this does not make any sense.

on the other hand, the probability could be much higher that the violent uprisings we're seeing in ukraine have been encouraged if not provoked by collusion between NATO & russian military forces?

2) i'm glad somebody will talk about years of western-russian cooperation in police & space operations.

3) could the foot soldiers on both sides be carrying out dust-ups in order to convince their respective national governments to hurry up & buy those fancy new military toys that they both want? expensive toys like F-35 fighter aircraft? each:


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> Than it's probably Economist had too much Rum


What's stronger, rum or Chivas Regal? Therein lies the answer.  

It would appear that you misunderstood the Economist? Part of the quote that may have confused you:

*'Cuba’s keenness on outside investment stems from the second reason to reconsider the embargo' *- this is saying that the US should reconsider the embargo, not Cuba [how could it be the other way around?]. It goes on to say that embargo or not, US exports have still made it to Cuba [in fact, US is a medicine, food & agricultural supplier already, and a key one in times of natural disasters]. 

It will be interesting to see Cuba's path under the current & much younger president in training [54 year old VP], after the Castros' rule ends in 2018 [assuming Raúl Castro makes it to 87].

*Nemo:* Cuba does have spectacular beaches, like Playa Pilar, though Old Havana is probably more your style, right? There is really no shortage of famous/hidden gems near & far that many of us don't even know about. Myself, I would settle for Anakena beach. :love-struck:

Tensions rise in Ukraine. Another stage of sanctions may follow. S&P cuts Russia's ratings. No surprises.


----------



## m3s

Covert operations conducted by the US to manipulate unstable regions is about as "secret" as the NSA reading your emails. NATO, on the other hand, can hardly agree on something mundane with so many heads, let alone some black operation that benefited each one's foreign policy. There are many violent uprisings on the planet.. This alone is nothing new and hardly newsworthy without these political implications. F-35's are the very tip of the iceberg.. as I said up thread no recent General I can think of has called for more Cold War era "toys".. quite the opposite actually! Foot soldiers don't conduct military "dust ups" or decide what military equipment to buy, it's all politically driven and more by economic benefits etc etc. It's also no secret that "multi-national" enterprises are in bed with the US government and drive the decisions these days more than military leaders. Do you really think this is about some foot soldiers or Generals wanting to play with their toys? I don't see any of them taking this as a game or enjoying it one bit. It's about money and politics. Which countries sell the most military hardware?


----------



## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> *Nemo:* Cuba does have spectacular beaches, like Playa Pilar, though Old Havana is probably more your style, right? There is really no shortage of famous/hidden gems near & far that many of us don't even know about. Myself, I would settle for Anakena beach. :love-struck:


We were scheduled to go into Havana, (which I was looking forward to)......but Leonid showed up and put the kibosh on that, so we were stuck on Varadero.

Haven't been to Easter Island......but the pic I posted was just one of many, almost identical, and better yet deserted, beaches one after the other.


----------



## humble_pie

i was only half-joking, as we said about crash helmets on figure skaters during the olympics. It was a joking extension of this quote from yourself, which is about as far-fetched as it gets:



m3s said:


> For all we know Obama's puppeteers could have informally agreed to the annexation of Crimea beforehand


as for what the generals & the forces want, when have they not required more toys? right now NATO is building the Missile Defence Shield, i gather part of it is already installed on ships operating in the mediterranean? then more will be built over the next few years on land, in poland & roumania? how many billions of $$ are involved here?

who is this Shield supposed to Defend from? surely you of all people should be able to understand that it profoundly aggravates the kremlin?

btw i wrote soldiers as a mask word, you should have seen that. The critical divisions are undoubtedly sea & air each:


----------



## gibor365

BBC _Moscow has tens of thousands of troops stationed along its side of the border with Ukraine and pro-Russian separatists have been occupying key buildings in a dozen eastern towns, defying the central government in Kiev. _ 
Sorry, Russia has right to have troops on their side of the border!

But, what the fu%$ US troops are doing in Poland and Latvia?! And all those "democratic" western governments blaming only Russia!

Russian's spies in Donetzk 
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74450000/jpg/_74450253_022034290-1.jpg


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## humble_pie

there's a BBC video with a ukraine journo interviewing a ukrainian military camp at Lugansk on the russian border.

"volunteers" are joining the forces at lugansk, although the journo uncovered the fact that they're being paid. What they are is, guys with no training who are being given guns. 

the really interesting fact was that the ukraine soldiers had been there, in that camp, since mid february! since the olympics! who got to the border zone first, the ukrainians or the russians?


----------



## gibor365

My personal opinion that all this conflict more about money than anything else.... When Ukraine separated, that had much more preferable conditions that Russia, also Russia took on herself all huge CCCP debt.... but look at numbers 20 years after! Aberage salary in Russia almost 3 times higher than in Ukraine, 30% of all working Ukranian people working abroad (mostly in Russia), pension , social package etc in Russia much much higher.... 
So people in Eastern Ukraine just want to get more $$$ for their labour....if salaries and livel of life in Ukraine were even close to Russian, I don't believe Eastern Ukraine will want to join Russia (Crimea is exception).
I watched documentary about Crimea....they had all infrastracture from CCCP time! Everything was old and stinky.... like some African respublic....Russia completely rebuilding Crimea now...


----------



## jserrg

Russia is rebuilding Crimea now? 
Who told you that? Are you watching Russian channels?  I am half-Russian. I know for a fact - Russians can't rebuild.
Russians have hundreds of facilities from CCCP time and they never did anything to change them. Crimea wouldn't be different. Russia does not need Crimea at all. Russia needs the whole Ukraine. And Putin will get it soon I am afraid.

Just seeing how well-prepared Russia is tells that everything happening in Ukraine was planned in Russia.

Salaries in Ukraine are not 3 times smaller than in Russia. Never trust statistic numbers when they come from Russia. Everything is controlled over there.
There is saying in Ukraine: "Life is hard in Ukraine. But it is even harder when showed on Russian channels." 

I thought that cold war is over many years ago. Apparently not. US and Russia still play that old 1960 game. NATO is growing stronger. Putin just could not accept NATO's missiles near his border. Besides Ukraine still builds most or at least a lot of critical weapon including long range missiles for Russia. Russians could never figure out how to do it themselves. Ukrainians are smart. I am half-Ukrainian too. 

Unfortunately Ukrainian or Russian market is not going to regain in the nearest future.


----------



## gibor365

You don't trust non-Russian number also?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage 
Do calculation using XE.COM and you will see that Russian average salaries more 3 times bigger than in Ukraine. Now, when Russia started to sell gas by market price and demands billions of $ that Ukraine owns and IMF will demnad cuts for $$$ -> salaries in Ukraine will be much less that even 1:3 ratio.
_Russia does not need Crimea at all. Russia needs the whole Ukraine_ BS! Every russian (of former Russian) I was talking to felt very very bad when Ukraine got Crimea, Russians cared about rest of Ukraine much less... Crimea belonged to Russia before even US Constitution was written and will be Russian for good. 
It's true that majority of big cities currently located on Eastern Ukranian territory were build by Russian knijaz, tzars , grafs etc... but those regions will join Russian only if referendum will decide so... Central and Western Ukraine (that always belonged to Poland - just check stats who lived in Lviv before WWII - 15% ukranians, 50% Poles, 30% - Jews) Russian doesn't need.

_NATO is growing stronger. Putin just could not accept NATO's missiles near his border_ This is true. And Putin should accept it?!
P.S> Ukrain is an artifical country that never existed and imo if will break apart by itlesf.

P.P.S. Ukranian market?! Ha ha ....this is not market , but joke  Couldn't find even 1 ETF exposed to Ukranian market.


----------



## jserrg

Don't know for sure but probably wiki gets Russian numbers from Stat Russia or something similar. Anyway in both Russia and Ukraine majority of companies pay salaries in envelopes. So it is really hard to say what is average. Higher salaries are offset by higher cost of living in Russia. I lived/worked in both countries - what people can afford is pretty much the same.
As you said: it is all about money. Putin doesn't care a bit about what Russians want and whether some of your Russian friends were upset about Crimea being part of Ukraine. There is no money in Crimea. And this is all that matters to putin. Crimea is a beautiful place. But there is no oil, no major industrial infrastructure there. 
Russians may care about rest of Ukraine much less. But putin does care about the rest of Ukraine. This is where all the natural resources and industries are. And that's all that matters now.

... only if referendum will decide so...
Once again in Russia or Ukraine referendum decides always what the person at power wants. If putin controls eastern Ukraine I can tell you right now what the results of the referendum will be: 95% for Russia and 82% attendance - the same as in Crimea.

It is hard to become an independent state when Russia is your nearest neighbor.  Russia always had the desire to conquer and control.
I think Ukraine lives through it's last months if not weeks of being an independent country.

Nothing happens "by itself". Countries may be created or disappear only when somebody with enough power wants it.

You'd be surprised how much one used to make on Ukrainian Stock Exchange. Sometimes you can swim in the pond - you don't need an ocean.


----------



## gibor365

So, you are telling that we cannot beleive statistics and should believe your own experience?! I have many relative and friends in both Russia and Ukraine and they only support those stats.
Crimea can bring bring a lot of tourists... and majot point that there will be no NATO military bases there...

The big Ukranian problem that it's not a consolidated country.... Eastern Ukraine always was pro-Russian , speak Russian and mostly identify themself with Russian culture....Western Ukraine - always anti-Russian, anti-Polish and anti-everything  now they temporarily pro-EU ...need some cash...

_You'd be surprised how much one used to make on Ukrainian Stock Exchange. Sometimes you can swim in the pond - you don't need an ocean. _ and one made fortune playing biliard and poker


----------



## jserrg

gibor said:


> ....Western Ukraine - anti-everything


Next thing you will tell people - that Western Ukrainians are all nazi.
You got to be watching Russian TV. Stop it! putin hypnotizes you.   

The fact that Ukraine speak two languages: Russian and Ukrainian - is the smallest problem that Ukraine has. Canada speaks English and French, US speaks English and Spanish, Belgium speaks Flemish and French. So what? 

Not that it matters to the conversation, but if you really want to know: Western Ukraine culturally has always been in Eastern Europe. Many people have ties/relatives in either Hungary or Poland. Eastern Ukraine has always had ties to Russia.

But I don't really think people's culture matters now. putin can/will do whatever he wants.


----------



## humble_pie

gibor & jserrg i'm wondering if you guys can tell us a little about the older history of the ukraine region.

newspapers are going back only to the time of Catherine the Great & pointing out how often & how much russia has controlled ukraine, for a few hundred years.

but what about before that? what was the history since the first century AD?

looking at the photos & videos, it seems clear to me that there is an ethnic ukrainian people, with a language of their own, who are distinct from russians.

if so, they must have often felt oppressed or threatened or both, in recent centuries. Not to speak of now.

the other thing that is surprising is how blonde & blue-eyed many are. This suggests to me that possibly early populating of the region was affected by Goths who overran northern europe & may have ranged southeast as far as ukraine?

ie makeup & growth of the native ukraine people were not the result of invasion by roman armies, as one might have originally expected.

my reason for asking is to learn something about the history & origins of ukrainians as a sovereign people who are to be protected. Would it be fair to say that in recent decades this group has mixed itself up with ultra-right politics?


----------



## andrewf

gibor said:


> So, you are telling that we cannot beleive statistics and should believe your own experience?! I have many relative and friends in both Russia and Ukraine and they only support those stats.
> Crimea can bring bring a lot of tourists... and majot point that there will be no NATO military bases there...
> 
> The big Ukranian problem that it's not a consolidated country.... Eastern Ukraine always was pro-Russian , speak Russian and mostly identify themself with Russian culture....Western Ukraine - always anti-Russian, anti-Polish and anti-everything  now they temporarily pro-EU ...need some cash...
> 
> _You'd be surprised how much one used to make on Ukrainian Stock Exchange. Sometimes you can swim in the pond - you don't need an ocean. _ and one made fortune playing biliard and poker


I really don't think the concern was that NATO would have a base in Crimea, but that Russia wouldn't.


----------



## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> I really don't think the concern was that NATO would have a base in Crimea, but that Russia wouldn't.



what would be the basis for this *really* entertaining opinion?

anyone who bothers to look can see that NATO has expanded shockingly over the past decade, by recruiting many of the Warsaw pact countries plus partners in asia. It's gone from half a dozen countries to 28 member nations plus 44 affiliates & partners.

anyone who bothers to look will find out that the failed NATO bombing initiative over libya aggravated the kremlin.

anyone who bothers to look will find out that the US policy on syria aggravates the kremlin.

anyone who bothers to look will find out that the current buildout of the new NATO missile defence shield, to operate up & down russia's western border, severely aggravates the kremlin.

last month putin told the russian people that NATO in ukraine would mean that US warships would soon be able to sail right up to & dock beside the russian naval base at sebastopol. U know what? i for one absolutely thought he was right!

my tentative guess is that it's not really NATO acting by itself, though. The NATO commanders are never the people uttering the strident anti-putin messages these days. It's always the US & its sycophant allies.

i have high hopes for incoming NATO secretary general Jens Stoltenberg. Meanwhile i believe that german chancellor Angela Merkel hews to a rational & diplomatic line in these most trying of times for her country.


----------



## Toronto.gal

> *1.* beleive statistics....
> *2.* My personal opinion that all this conflict more about money than anything else
> *3.* but joke  Couldn't find even 1 ETF exposed to Ukranian market/one made fortune playing biliard and poker


*1.* Gibor, Finally something we can agree on. Ukraine has definitely been performing way below the others mentioned. 









*2.* Indeed it's not about 'cold' Alaska [nor Krym], that's for sure! After all, how many political grievances are separated from economic ones, especially where there is wide spread corruption, et al? 

*3.* As usual, the indéfatigable humour/personality/[my latest fav. word].


----------



## Toronto.gal

jserrg said:


> 1. Putin doesn't care a bit about what Russians want/But putin does care about the rest of Ukraine.
> 2. referendum decides always what the person at power wants - 95% for Russia and 82% attendance - the same as in Crimea.
> 3. Russia always had the desire to conquer and control/Just seeing how well-prepared Russia is tells that everything happening in Ukraine was planned in Russia.


*1.* Completely agree! As Merkel put it, 'Putin is living in another world'. His own, and the only one he cares about. 
*2.* Farcical referendums without a doubt. On the issue of language, how many in Ukraine are bilingual [Russian/Ukraine]. And of these, how many need/want protection from Putin?:rolleyes2:
*3.* Of course: control, influence & power. The plan most likely was in the making for years, too; it's not like they didn't have prior experience. They even had their propaganda ready to go, ie: presenting Putin's version of reality.

If we go back to the beginning of the 'revolution', who were the first protesters after Yanukovych dropped the EU deal, students, no? After the death & violence, that's when the propaganda ad nauseam started; first it was hooligans funded by the evil & decadent West, then it was the Gayeuromaidan, the nationalist, a Nazi coup, etc. Yes, Svoboda had a much higher presence than in just the last election, but still a small % of the population, and not exactly all that shocking given the economy. Anyhow, we all know that political propaganda has a purpose, ie: creating lies, lies, and more lies, which seems that 80% of Russians believe?

"I understand that additional sanctions may not change Mr. Putin's calculus," Obama said. "How well they change his calculus in part depends on not only us applying sanctions, but also the co-operation of other countries."


----------



## andrewf

NATO in Ukraine might've many Russia lost their naval base there. The annexation of Crimea was to ensure Russia doesn't lose its only warm water naval base and only naval base on the Black Sea. NATO has no shortage of naval bases in the area. Crimea is of no special strategic interest to NATO, except perhaps in denying Russia a naval base. In contrast, Crimea is of vital strategic importance to Russia, and they annexed it before Ukraine fell fully into the West's arms through EU and NATO. I really don't understand why Russia is taking this antagonistic approach with the West. Going head to head with the West, Russia will lose. I think it is Putin acting in his own interest in maintaining power and control by isolating Russia against his country's interest.


----------



## gibor365

_Crimea is of vital strategic importance to Russia_ on this I agree with you (even though jserrg told that Russian didn't need Crimea). It's alos huge cultural/historical importance to Russia. 
_tell us a little about the older history of the ukraine region_ this is too big topic to describe on the forum.... 
about biggest Eastern Ukranian cities (translated by google): _Kharkov - Russian city . It was founded in 1630 -ies. There settled Poles fleeing from the right bank of the Dnieper Little Russians . Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich built a fort and founded in 1656, Kharkiv province . And here is some Ukraine ?
Sumy - was founded by Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich no later than 1655 . King allowed refugees to settle there - Ruthenia , which killed the Poles . And here the Ukraine ?
Poltava - was in the XVII century, the center of the pro-Russian Ruthenia . During this traitor Hetman Vygovskyy (something like the current Klitschko yatseniuk ) attacked the city and its inhabitants sold into slavery by the Crimean Tatars . And here the Ukraine ?
Dnepropetrovsk - was founded by Catherine II in 1776 and was called Ekaterinoslav . And here the Ukraine ?
Lugansk - was founded in 1795 , when Catherine II founded on the river Lugan ironworks . To work on it come to live in Lugansk natives of central and north - western provinces of Russia . And here the Ukraine ?
Kherson - was founded by Catherine II in 1778 for the construction of the Russian fleet. Construction carried Potemkin . And here the Ukraine ?
Donetsk - was founded by Alexander II in 1869 during the construction of a metallurgical plant in Yuzovka . And here the Ukraine ?
Nicholaev - was founded by Catherine II in 1789. At this time there Potemkin built ship "St. Nicholas ." And here at Ukraine ?
ODESSA - was founded by Catherine II in 1794 on the site of a fortress built just before Suvorov. And here the Ukraine ?
Chernihiv - one of the oldest Russian cities, it existed in the early 10th century. In 1503, he became part of Russia . In 1611 it was destroyed by the Poles , and seized the territory from the Russian . But in 1654 returned to Chernigov Russia and since then it has always been a part of . The question is: where is Ukraine ?
Simferopol - was founded by Catherine II in 1784. It was built on the site of Potemkin Suvorov military camp and near the Tatar settlement. And here the Ukraine will not be able to say no scientist .
Sevastopol - founded by Catherine II in 1783 on the site of a fortress built before Suvorov. Built the city of Potemkin . And here the Ukraine ?
Mariupol - was founded in 1778 by Catherine II. She settled there Greeks - immigrants from the Crimea. And here the Ukraine ?
Krivoj Rog was founded by Catherine II in 1775. And here the Ukraine ?
Zaporizhzhya - was founded by Catherine II in 1770 and was called Alexander . And here the Ukraine ?
KIROVOGRAD - was founded in 1754 by Russian Empress Elizabeth . He called Elizabethgrad 
_

On Western part similar list can be created for former Polish cities.... Actual Ukraine is in it's Central part around Kiev...

About languages.....many of people living in Eastern Ukraine practically don't speak Ukranian, in Western Ukraine a lot don't speak/understand Russian, and even in CCCP time "zapadency" could've speak Russian, but pretended they don;t understand.
In Zakarpat'e (South - West Ukraine) people speak different Ukranian at all....When I visited Uzhgorod/Mukachevo area, locals explained me that there are 4 different dialects there that very very different from each other and basic Ukrainian ... Also I visitied some Hungarian villages where people speak only Hungarian. In the area along the border to Hungary, Hungarians form the majority. Because today's Zakarpattia was part of the Kingdom of Hungary since its foundation in the year 1000. From 1867, Hungary was a constituent part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire/// similar storyAnother region Chernovtzy - similar story, but with Romanian...


----------



## humble_pie

thankx very much gibor, i know it's a huge topic, would easily be an entire year of university study just to start up ...

but thank you for the thumbnail, it inspires me to dig around a bit myself


----------



## m3s

andrewf said:


> I really don't understand why Russia is taking this antagonistic approach with the West.


To sell military hardware. All that dusty cold war stuff suddenly needs to be replaced. It's a win-win and Putin comes out a hero to Russians. Nobody paid any attention to the staging and antagonizing over international waters anymore.



andrewf said:


> Going head to head with the West, Russia will lose.


Nobody is going head to head here. With Russia it's all about being in position first, cat-and-mouse.... which is why Crimea is important to them. NATO doesn't need a base in Crimea as you said. NATO was scaling way back. Cold war is over, they said.


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## jserrg

If you go like a thousand years back - there were no Ukrainians and Russians. There was single Slavic nation called "Rusichi". The capital of ancient Russia was in Kiev (currently the capital of Ukraine).
Then some of them decided to go north to settle in new land. They established cities/forts up north and east.
So basically Ukrainians are Russians who decided to stay home. And Russians are Ukrainians who decided to move away.
It is similar to how Europeans moved to America in XV-XVII centuries. 
Conservative/wealthier families stayed. Go-getters and more advantageous people moved to America.
That drives resulting nation's mentality a little bit. Ukrainians are more conservative in general. And unlike Russians Ukrainians never had that believe that their nation should rule the world.

Right Ukrainians and Russians have common history. But mentality and even culture is quite different. Russians never recognized that Ukrainians have their own culture. What Gibor is saying reflects exactly how Russians see Ukraine: "It is our land, what culture Ukrainians might have?! Ukraine is an artificial country. Our Russian queen sent troops 300 hundred years ago down south and established fort Sevastopol there. Why should we care who lived around that fort at that time?!!"

Gibor, 95% of Ukrainians are bilingual. Except for a few 70-year-olds in those Hungarian villages that you have mentioned everybody understands both languages. All young people understand both. My own Ukrainian may not be that fluent but I understand everything, can read, write. I grew up in Crimea. Crimea is only Russian speaking. Right now I work with guys in Yjgorod (the most western part of Ukraine). They all speak perfect Russian.
Kiev is mainly Russian speaking. 
But people identify themselves as Ukrainians - Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Russians could never understand that.
They just can't understand why some Ukrainian nation does not want to be part of the great Russian nation and go conquer Chechnia and Georgia together.

It is nice to sit and talk about history, languages, people beliefs, etc. But that all has no influence over what is happening today in Ukraine. putin set up riots in Ukraine just like US set up riots in Libya not too long ago. Once local tv stations are captured you control what people beliefs are. 
Ukrainian government/army might have tried to stop putin. But remember it was putin's riots in Kiev. Now it is putin's people at power in Ukraine. They will not do anything to stop Russians. At least so far they didn't. They allowed Russians to capture Crimea and several cities and towns in Eastern Ukraine.
And there were no actions what so ever from the new Ukrainian government. It is a clear sign to me that the new government just follows orders from Moscow.


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## gibor365

_They allowed Russians to capture Crimea and several cities and towns in Eastern Ukraine.
And there were no actions what so ever from the new Ukrainian government. It is a clear sign to me that the new government just follows orders from Moscow. _
This is something new!!!! New putsch government is pro-Russian?! Give me a break! And what could've Ukrane do in Crimea when about 85-90% want to join Russia?! 

_putin set up riots in Ukraine _ another piece of western "propoganda"... why do you think pro-Russian people in East Ukraine is so stupid? I would completely support referendum in East Ukraine regions to join Russia even though I left Russia about 25 years ago... I talked to my friends and co-workers who originally from Ukraine (yes, all of them are related to Jewish and came here via Israel) and all of them thinking the same.... 
Regarding language..... I don;t know what happened now , but when I travelled in Zakarpatie 25 years ago about 50% of population couldn't speak Russian.... My good friends at my aged , whom I met in Israel, husband - Jew and his wife - Ukranian and they are from Zakarpatie - they couldn't understand Russian at all!!!! I was so surprised than.... 
Ukranians in Easr and West are completely different, it's like 2 different nation , you just cannot compare "zapadenez" from West from pro-Russian ukranians from Donetzk or Lugansk


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## gibor365

_Our Russian queen sent troops 300 hundred years ago down south and established fort Sevastopol there. Why should we care who lived around that fort at that time?!!"
_
What time?! It was sinse Russian city and only in 1954 Khruchev gave changed it's administrative status (as all Krym) and they started reporting to Kiev, even though culturaly it was still Russian city (as all Krym).... 
Krym was always different from rest of Ukraine, my uncle lived there and visited him for months in late 70s.... I remember that I felt there like in any Russian territory..... but when I was in Zakatpatie, feelings were much different .....


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## jserrg

gibor said:


> ... what could've Ukrane do in Crimea when about 85-90% want to join Russia?!


You still don't get what I am trying to say: It does not matter what 85-90% want. 90% does not control military forces or police. 90% don't have money to hire enough people to organize a protest. 90% just want to keep their employment so that they can raise their families. Does it really matter who you pay your taxes to: putin or yanykovich? Do you think it matters that much that people will go and risk their life to join Russia. I am not talking about you and me sitting in front of a laptop drinking imported Crimean wine in Canada. I am talking about people in Donetsk. Nobody will risk being killed just to become Russian. People in Donetsk are not stupid. Nobody wants tanks on the streets.
There was an interview with the Russian officer who is organizing protesters in Slavyansk. He openly admits that they have brought people from Crimea to Slavyansk.


----------



## jserrg

gibor said:


> , feelings were much different .....


When you go to Quebec City... do you have different feelings comparing to Toronto?  Does it surprise you? 
There are 45 million people in Ukraine. Of course there are different regions with different history/culture/etc.


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## gibor365

just FYI, survey on public forum:
Results for - US troops arrive in Poland and Latvia for exercises across Eastern Europe amid Ukraine crisis.
Do you agree that US should send their troops to Eastern Europe?


Yes | 15.72% | 345 votes 


No | 38.92% | 854 votes 


Undecided | 34.64% | 760 votes 


Not Applicable | 10.71% | 235 votes


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## gibor365

jserrg said:


> You still don't get what I am trying to say: It does not matter what 85-90% want. 90% does not control military forces or police. 90% don't have money to hire enough people to organize a protest. 90% just want to keep their employment so that they can raise their families. Does it really matter who you pay your taxes to: putin or yanykovich? Do you think it matters that much that people will go and risk their life to join Russia. I am not talking about you and me sitting in front of a laptop drinking imported Crimean wine in Canada. I am talking about people in Donetsk. Nobody will risk being killed just to become Russian. People in Donetsk are not stupid. Nobody wants tanks on the streets.
> There was an interview with the Russian officer who is organizing protesters in Slavyansk. He openly admits that they have brought people from Crimea to Slavyansk.


That what i said, that money (salaries, pensions etc) is a big factor in uprising in Donetzk and other eastern cities. There are other reasons like people want to watch TV in Russian, have documents in banks, mortgages etc in Russian, give to their kids Russian name and make sure kids learn in schools their Russian literature/culture.... And Russians afraid of new government....
Regarding, "risking your life,,," - yes and no, all depends what can be ouptut.... When in mid 80's we were learning illegaly Hebrew in ulpans, when we participated in anti-communist demonstrations and meetings with Demokraticheskij Soujz, we also could've been arrested and some of my friends really were.... , so yes, I believe that this is mostly uprising of people living in Ukranian territory....
_There was an interview with the Russian officer _ maybe you watching too much Ukranian or US TV?! On Russian TV, there is also interviews with many Ukranians who escaped to Russian Crimea and want to serve in Russian army.... a lot of info refering to Ukranian Genshtab (Military HQ) that US military specialists planning for Ukranians how to attack Slaviansk and other rebel cities, that they used the newest NATO maps for their operations and so on....
My point that among Russian people everywhere thatere are always leaders who can organize uprising ... especially taking in consideration gthat many of them participated in wars in Chechnja, Servia and so on


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> To sell military hardware. All that dusty cold war stuff suddenly needs to be replaced


u don't think the US also wants to sell its military wish list to US voters?

u don't think some folks in ottawa want to sell F-35s to canadian voters?





> NATO doesn't need a base in Crimea as you said.


nobody said anything about a NATO base in crimea. What was mentioned was ukraine as a member of NATO. Possibly a base somewhere in eastern ukraine. Certainly NATO would obtain the use of whatever ukrainian airport(s) suit their needs. Perhaps should consult gibor for suggestions re candidate airports?





> NATO was scaling way back. Cold war is over, they said.


on all sides what "they" are saying is that the cold war has been re-started.

there's been nothing like these recent offensives & skirmishes in ukraine to shine the spotlight on NATO, the world's biggest, most shadowy, least-known supranational military power. With not one single iota of direct voter connection or voter responsibility anywhere on the planet.

NATO scaling back? seriously, how much is the missile defence shield going to cost? i saw a $4 billion estimate for the polish ground station segment alone.

alas m3, looks to me like u are feinting & parrying & counter-riposting & scattering PR pixie dust in order to cover up the military ops ...

do u think this phrase d'armes is convincing readers on here, though?


----------



## underemployedactor

humble_pie said:


> the other thing that is surprising is how blonde & blue-eyed many are. This suggests to me that possibly early populating of the region was affected by Goths who overran northern europe & may have ranged southeast as far as ukraine?


I believe this has to do with heavy migration of Germans which Catherine the Great encouraged, as well as a lot of Polish immigration in the late medieval period. Most of the Winnipeggers of Ukrainian descent that I have known are similarly blue on blonde.
However, I'm no expert.


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## humble_pie

thankx actor!

a brief google search for the old name of russia led me to the scandinavian Vikings known as Varangians, who arrived in what is now Ukraine & conquered Kiev in 882. They established a state known as Kievan Rus.

so it was northern vikings, after all, who long ago injected the blonde blue-eyed DNA into the populace!

who the original settlers were, the wikipedia article doesn't say. The newcomers called themselves Varangian Rus.

not surprisingly, the Rus excelled at trade & commerce. The black sea - then as now - was a trading crosspoint between eastern caliphates & early medieval europe. We should remember that Arab culture was then at its zenith, while in western europe a handful of literate monks, nuns, charlemagne the emperor plus a few enlightened dukes were beginning to haul the dark ages forward into the high middle ages.

_" Engaging in trade, piracy, and mercenary activities, Varangians roamed the river systems and portages of Gardariki, as the areas north of the Black Sea were known in the Norse sagas. They controlled the Volga trade route (Route from the Varangians to the Arabs), connecting the Baltic to the Caspian Sea, and the Dnieper trade route (Route from the Varangians to the Greeks) leading to the Black Sea and Constantinople. 

" Those were the critically important trade links at that time, connecting Dark Age Europe with wealthy and developed Arab Caliphates and the Byzantine Empire. Most of the silver coinage in the West came from the East via those routes.

" Attracted by the riches of Constantinople, the Varangian Rus' initiated a number of Rus'- Byzantine Wars, some of which resulted in advantageous trade treaties. At least from the early 10th century many Varangians served as mercenaries in the Byzantine Army, comprising the elite Varangian Guard (the personal bodyguards of Byzantine Emperors)."_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian


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## m3s

humble_pie said:


> u don't think the US also wants to sell its military wish list to US voters?
> 
> u don't think some folks in ottawa want to sell F-35s to canadian voters?


Exactly



humble_pie said:


> on all sides what "they" are saying is that the cold war has been re-started.


Exactly again



humble_pie said:


> there's been nothing like these recent offensives & skirmishes in ukraine to shine the spotlight on NATO, the world's biggest, most shadowy, least-known supranational military power. With not one single iota of direct voter connection or voter responsibility anywhere on the planet.


Voters from each NATO country are directly connected to its operations. All the National caveats and rules apply.



humble_pie said:


> seriously, how much is the missile defence shield going to cost? i saw a $4 billion estimate for the polish ground station segment alone.


I guess a Russian IADS to match the Polish MiG29's and Roumanian MiG21's was out of the question? Even carpet salesmen know that in capitalism you should charge what someone will pay. Any options plays for RTN? Mine is nearly doubled.



humble_pie said:


> alas m3, looks to me like u are feinting & parrying & counter-riposting & scattering PR pixie dust in order to cover up the military ops ...


PR pixie dust is for tomorrow with the CBC. You know the drill.


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> Any options plays for RTN? Mine is nearly doubled


awesome. Which did u buy?

don't forget that, as options approach expiration date, gamma/theta will tend to flatten their performance.

if there are only weeks remaining to expiration date, it's even possible that stock can continue to rise but a call option with a big premium can actually start to drop in price as TV rapidly decays ...


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## humble_pie

story getting very close to home now.

6 CF-18s head out from quebec to join NATO in roumania as violence escalates in ukraine.

what i see - not for the first time - is restrained discipline & quiet, non-provocative talk on the part of the military. It's never the military - certainly not the NATO commanders in bruxelles - who are fanning the flames of rhetoric in this worsening situation.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cf-18s-head-to-romania-amid-uncertainty-about-nato-mission-1.2625727


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## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> story getting very close to home now.
> 
> 6 CF-18s head out from quebec to join NATO in roumania as violence escalates in ukraine.


why not?! and now they rising taxes .... 
I like comment below and agree with it (on article HP published): _Amazing! US backed junta seized the power in Ukraine. People from East and South Ukraine rioted. Junta asked for help from US. They got it. People rioted even more. Now US ordered all its lapdogs including us to help installing the peaceful democratic process by sending warplanes. I am losing my count of the recent peace and stability initiatives - Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Egypt, Syria… Now Harper wants to join Americans to provide a genuine example of a diplomatic foreign policy in Ukraine. I am confused, are we a part of US already? I am afraid that during winter hibernation I missed one more coup. And while typing your comments remember NSA records everything on you_


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## andrewf

Hey, if I had to pick, I'd rather have to deal with the US than Putin's borderline fascist Russia.


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## humble_pie

what concerns me is how the women & children in east ukraine have all vanished.

they are the ones to worry about. Are the children in east ukrainian cities still able to go to school? are they safe en route to school, or in the school building itself? does everybody have enough food? are children, pregnant women & nursing mothers still able to find the nourishing fresh milk, eggs & vegetables that they need? are medical clinics still open? is everybody still going normally to work? are pay cheques still being issued?

there's a huge contrast now between pictures of east ukraine cities & pictures of crimean cities a few weeks ago. 

do ya'll remember that video in the early days of the crimea invasion? a squadron of russian soldiers was marching forward in formation while a cutely-attired Little Miss Ukraine Twenty-Something went prancing by on her spike heels, almost brushing their left shoulders, heading in the opposite direction.

every single eye in the soldier squadron was swivelled 90 degrees to the left. Somehow they managed to keep on marching forward without falling down, though.

ok maybe she was a hooker. Still, there was a lighter tone to crimea & the mothers with their children never vanished.

east ukraine now is another story. Nothing but thugs, assassinations, murder, talk about criminal gangs on both sides.

if one stops to think about ordinary citizens, they must be cowering in terror in their homes or in whatever offices or factories they are still able to get to. This in turn means a kind of mass war-induced trauma is taking place right now, among innocent people ... one whose wounds will be felt for decades to come ... especially the children ...

the NATO forces are all trained military police. In the worsening situation, the west has no choice except to mobilize them imho.


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## Homerhomer

gibor said:


> why not?! and now they rising taxes ....


What taxes are being raised?


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## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> if one stops to think about ordinary citizens, they must be cowering in terror in their homes or in whatever offices or factories they are still able to get to. This in turn means a kind of mass war-induced trauma is taking place right now, among innocent people ... one whose wounds will be felt for decades to come ... especially the children ...


This is why I found the cheerleading for Russia's destabilization program in Ukraine disappointing. Nationalism with no regard to human suffering. This isn't a football game.


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## gibor365

Homerhomer said:


> What taxes are being raised?


As for taxes, that's where Mr. Harper brags the most. But check reality!

While claiming they never raise taxes, the Harper Conservatives have in fact increased the net tax burden on Canadians in each of their last four budgets. It happens in dozens of nefarious ways which they hope you won't notice -- like taxing parking fees at hospitals and dinging Credit Unions for an extra $75-million in income tax.

One of their biggest cash-grabs has been constantly escalating Employment Insurance payroll taxes. Starting in 2011, EI premiums have been going up every year by more than $600 million. So to date, Mr. Harper has raked in an additional $3.6 billion. He says he won't force EI rates up any further, but neither will he roll them back to where they were before he imposed these job-killing Conservative payroll tax hikes.

Two other Conservative tax increases are also netting Mr. Harper big revenues. 

He has hoisted a broad range of tariff-taxes on imported consumer goods -- everything from tricycles to cosmetic wigs for cancer patients -- which will extract some $333 million more per year from the buyers of such products. And small business owners are going to be paying Mr. Harper some $550 million more, thanks to new Conservative taxes imposed on them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/ralph-goodale/harper-government-taxes_b_3975855.html


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## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> the NATO forces are all trained military police. In the worsening situation, the west has no choice except to mobilize them imho.


all very nice, but "It reported that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the NATO airstrikes. NATO spokesman responded to claims Jamie Shea said, "There is always a cost to defeat an evil," he said. "It never comes free, unfortunately. But the cost of failure to defeat a great evil is far higher." He insisted NATO planes had bombed only "legitimate designated military targets" and if more civilians had died it was because NATO had been forced into military action".


----------



## HaroldCrump

gibor said:


> As for taxes, that's where Mr. Harper brags the most. But check reality!
> 
> While claiming they never raise taxes, the Harper Conservatives have in fact increased the net tax burden on Canadians in each of their last four budgets.


gibor, you live in Taxtario, right?
Do you not see the punitive taxes imposed by the provincial govt. in the last 8 years?
The net increase in taxation for Taxtario residents has far more to do with provincial level taxes than federal.



> like taxing parking fees at hospitals


The federal govt. does not control hospital parking rates.
Those are set directly by the hospitals.
Someone has to pay for the fatcat hospital administrators and bureaucrats.
Hospital administrators are amongst the highest paid jobs in the country right now.

Wanna know why hospital parking rates are high?
It has nothing to do with Harper.
It is because if this:

_*Ontario hospitals publish salaries of top executives, unveil ‘exorbitant’ packages*_



> One of their biggest cash-grabs has been constantly escalating Employment Insurance payroll taxes. Starting in 2011, EI premiums have been going up every year by more than $600 million.


There is rampant fraud in EI.
Also, EI is a social program - it is not simply an unemployment insurance program.
EI supports the parental leave program, which has nothing to do with involuntary unemployment.
It also provides other benefits like short term disability.

EI has been abused like a welfare program.
That is why premiums have been increasing, and the federal govt. had to clamp down on claims and eligibility criteria.


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## humble_pie

gibor said:


> all very nice, but "It reported that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the NATO airstrikes. NATO spokesman responded to claims Jamie Shea said, "There is always a cost to defeat an evil," he said. "It never comes free, unfortunately. But the cost of failure to defeat a great evil is far higher." He insisted NATO planes had bombed only "legitimate designated military targets" and if more civilians had died it was because NATO had been forced into military action".



gibor this is an old story from 15 years ago, what does it have to do with the price of chicken today.

nobody is saying anything about air strikes. What they are doing is mobilizing & sabre-rattling. This is very many levels below air strikes.

if russian soldiers can mob on the east side of the border, don't u think it's logical that NATO can mobilize on the west side?

i must confess - cowardly custard that i am - that i wish the kiev troops would stay home so they don't get hurt. They seem so poorly trained & outfitted. Why would anyone want to see these young lads marching towards likely suicide?

pressure kept up from the west on putin to influence the thugs in east ukraine. Russian operatives to be withdrawn. Nobody knows the critical balance between home-grown east ukraine thugs & covert russian operatives. Sabre-rattling provides suitable background noise imho.


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## gibor365

_Nobody knows the critical balance between home-grown east ukraine thugs & covert russian operatives. _ HP, it's all speculation.... nobody knows if there are and how many "covert russian operatives" as well as "covert NATO/US operatives" 
You just extrapolate Canadian mentality (where I think 90% of the population didn't hold gun in their hands) while talking about Ukraine/Russia ... maybe there are some "covert russian operatives" , may be not.... may be some Russian guys just cross the border ot their own.... but again, without any "operatives" people of East ukraine could've form rebel groups... Even assuming that there are some Russian operatives who to be withdrawn, do you really think evrything will become nice and quiet?!
The only solution I see, too have referendum under UN/EU inspection...
Also you cannot compare Russia who has troops on it's own territory with US/Canadian etc troops on other side....
Just think for a moment, Russia created military union with Cuba, Vanezuela and bringing there fighters...


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## gibor365

I just curious what would be now Canadian reaction if last election was won by Leberals (M. Ignatieff) who _Ignatieff's paternal grandfather was Count Pavel Ignatieff, the Russian Minister of Education during the First World War and son of Count Nikolay Pavlovich Ignatyev, an important Russian statesman and diplomat._


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## andrewf

I don't think it would make any difference. I think he would have had a similar position to the one Harper has taken.


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## gibor365

Yeah, sure, why not to repeat what Obama i doing 
Ukraine crisis: Canada imposes more sanctions on Russia
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-crisis-canada-imposes-more-sanctions-on-russia-1.2624334
_Canada is imposing economic sanctions on ExpoBank and RosEnergoBank and the following nine Russian individuals... ■Vladimir Volfovich Zhirinovsky, founder and leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia._ Poor Z.  maybe he has account in TD 

Hope that I will be stail able to buy "Russkij Standard"


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## andrewf

Is there any reason Canada should not?


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Is there any reason Canada should not?


I don't see any reasons Canada should!


----------



## gibor365

Ukraine Crisis: Masked Far-Right Activists Carrying Flaming Torches Fight in Kiev
Scary pics
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-cr...s-carrying-flaming-torches-fight-kiev-1446701

Or you think Russian operatives are involved?!


----------



## gibor365

American Public Wants Diminished Role on World Stage.
_Almost half of Americans want their government to pull back from the world stage despite the continuing crises in Ukraine and the Middle East, a Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll has found.

Fewer than 20% of those surveyed wanted more US engagement in world affairs.

The poll comes at an awkward time for Washington as unrest continues in eastern Ukraine and pro-Russian separatiststake control of central government buildings.

Obama is on a tour of Asia where he has criticised those in his government who urged more military action in hotspots despite the costly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Why is it that everybody is so eager to use military force after we've just gone through a decade of war at enormous costs to our troops and to our budget?" he asked.

"What is it exactly that these critics think would have been accomplished?"

In 2013, the Pew Reseach Center found that 53% of those polled believed that the US "should mind its own business internationally" compared with 41% in 1995 and 20% in 1964.

One respondent in the most recent survey, Dora Lovett, told the Wall Street Journal that Obama should focus more on domestic issues.

"I just feel like he does more for them [foreign countries] than he does for us," she said. She highlighted foreign aid as an example of Obama's primary international concern.

The survey also showed that, while Obama's foreign policy reputation had slipped, his overall job approval rating rose from 41% in March to 44%.
_

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/american-public-wants-diminished-role-world-stage-1446783


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## MRT

gibor said:


> Ukraine Crisis: Masked Far-Right Activists Carrying Flaming Torches Fight in Kiev
> Scary pics
> http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-cr...s-carrying-flaming-torches-fight-kiev-1446701
> 
> Or you think Russian operatives are involved?!


Given that Russia overtly lied about its involvement in Crimea, with Putin acknowledging that the 'little green men' were indeed Russian soldiers, why should anyone believe Putin's claims that no Russian forces are operating in Ukraine? Because he claims it was 'necessary' then...but not now?


----------



## thompsg4416

I'm not sure the liberals(regardless of the leader) would have been as hard line as the conservatives although thier direction would have been the same. Harper is full of bluster for the domestic audience - we have so little trade with Russia our words and actions are nothing but symbolic. The majority of people will only see the bluster and not realize there is nothing of substance behind it. Most of the sanctions to date actually fall into this category. Leaders are pandering to domestic audiences - trying to make it look like they are doing something but trying as hard as they can not to since in reality anyone(Europe) with anything invested will lose. Russia is not Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Syria whom no one but their own people depended on. Not easy to explain to the avg joe.


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## Nemo2

I cut & pasted the following comment that someone posted on Yahoo......sums up the current US Administration's response to events: :biggrin:



> President Obama called an emergency meeting today with his cabinet along with leading Democrats in the House and the Senate to deal with Russia. Obama blamed Rush Limbaugh, Joe Biden blamed a lack of gun control, John Kerry blamed global warming, Harry Reid blamed the Koch Brothers and the cattle rancher in Nevada, Nancy Pelosi blamed Fox News, Chuck Schumer blamed the TEA Party for not accepting amnesty, Barbara Boxer blamed rich Republicans for not wanting to pay higher taxes, Richard Durbin blamed the NRA, Eric Holder blamed racism, Michelle Obama laid blame to childhood obesity, and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was heard saying, “It is an important step."


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## andrewf

And Dubya responded by invading Nigeria.


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## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> And Dubya responded by invading Nigeria.


By Golly...you're right:

http://nigeriapoliticsonline.com/obanikoro-praises-usnigeria-partnership-on-hivaids/



> The Minister of State for Defence, Musiliu Obanikoro has commended the United States Government for partnering with Nigeria in the fight against HIV/AIDS.
> 
> He made the statement while addressing the Site/Team Commanders of the Nigerian Ministry of Defence / United States Department of Defense (NMOD-USDOD) HIV delegates conference at the Emergency Plan Implementation Committee (EPIC) Liaison Office, Abuja.
> 
> The minister, who* traced the commencement of the NMOD-USDOD programme to the era of President George W. Bush*, also said that Nigeria can overcome the problem of HIV/AIDS within the context of President Jonathan’s Transformation Agenda which also focuses on health.


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## humble_pie

Nemo2 said:


> I cut & pasted the following comment that someone posted on Yahoo......sums up the current US Administration's response to events: :biggrin:



no no neeemo u haven't got it yet ... surprising for someone as sharp as u ...

they are never going to say so in public but today's offensive in ukraine is likely armed/aided by direct US initiatives

like they did in vietnam for so many years before the outright US troops started to land, the US always kept plenty foreign aid officers & spies deployed in south vietnam :biggrin:

what was christine lagarde saying yesterday about gigantic financial aid to kiev? looks like it's starting to come through

in short, please don't be taken in by public talk about ittybitty sanctions. Any day they please washington & london can start up WW III. Looks like ottawa would tag along.


----------



## gibor365

It's easy to blame Putin for everything..... and what is Obama reaction about using military aircraft against civilians

_Russian president Vladimir Putin's spokesperson has said that Ukraine's overnight operation to regain control of the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk has ended any hope of keeping the Geneva peace accord alive.

According to the Voice of Russia, the Kremlin spokesman said that Putin is to send a government representative to southeast Ukraine for talks over the escalating conflict between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russian separatists

"It looks as though at the same time Russia is employing efforts on the deescalating and settling of the conflict, the Kiev regime has moved on to firing from military aircraft at civilians in populated areas, the beginning of this retaliatory operation has practically destroyed the last hope on the Geneva Accords," Russian press secretary Dmitry Peskov said.

"During a recent visit to Minsk, Putin called such a possible operation criminal," he continued.

"Regrettably, the ongoing events have fully confirmed this assessment," the press secretary said.

The Geneva agreement - signed earlier this month between Russia, Ukraine, the European Union and the United States - aimed at ending illegal groups' occupations of government buildings in eastern Ukraine.

However, pro-Russian militants have refused to leave the buildings in 10 different towns and cities across the region.

The Ukrainian operation in Slovyansk saw pro-Russian fighters battling for the eastern city shoot down a helicopter and killing the pilot as government forces launched an onslaught to retake control of the rebel-held city.
_
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-sl...-are-firing-civilians-putin-spokesman-1447002


----------



## andrewf

Are they still civilians if they are armed and occupying government facilities even after they've been asked to leave?


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Are they still civilians if they are armed and occupying government facilities even after they've been asked to leave?


sure they are?! What is it government and what it represents?!

Just waiting when US and A will start useing airforce to bomb  
Nevada Rancher Threatens 'Range War' Against Feds
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/nevada-rancher-threatens-range-war-feds/story?id=23225314


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## andrewf

It's the whole 'enemy combatant' grey area. They are not representatives of a state, but they aren't really civilians either. If they were, they would be criminals who are resisting arrest, and police could use appropriate force to detain them.


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## m3s

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-nato-watching-russians-closely-with-awacs-1.2629411

If this was a course it would hardly suffice as an intro to kindergarten.. But.. I think he did a pretty good job in 2 mins (even if nobody else pronounces ehhwax that way). Every media jockey in the north atlantic is waiting to sign off as "above Roumania" now. Somebody pulled a few strings to make sure he was one of the first.

This NY Times article was far more in depth though (maybe middle school) and a bit less premeditated. My good buddy and roommate got the closing line.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/w...frets-about-natos-ability-to-curb-russia.html


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## humble_pie

it's not possible to claim any longer that the thugs & goons in east ukraine are working alone imho. The difference between the thugs & the green men is striking, obvious. The latter are professional soldiers carrying what many identify as russian weapons.

re the AWACs, cbc reporter jeff semple seems to be calling it an Eh WOX.

but a radarship by any name is still a plane. On board, a canadian spokesperson tells semple that there are more russian fighter aircraft hovering just outside ukraine air space right now, more russian naval ships on the black sea right now, than at any time since the early 1980s.

m3 was this your ehwox in afghan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uQQFwHAV3Q&list=FLl8D9gIfmcytPp2WTTTkHpA&feature=player_detailpage


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## Nemo2

AWACS is pronounced A-WAX.....eh? :wink:


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## thompsg4416

andrewf said:


> Are they still civilians if they are armed and occupying government facilities even after they've been asked to leave?


As the saying goes there is a fine line between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. The same questions could be asked of any protestors especially those of miden who were armed and asked to leave. Not saying who's right or wrong just making a point. It depends on ones perspective I suppose.


----------



## thompsg4416

More spending on military - just what a broke Europe and USA needs. Frankly we don't need it right now in Canada either. This whole thing happened because the west simply pushed their interests too hard and caused Russia to act. Right or wrong did anyone really think Russia would tolerate a pro euro government in Ukraine of all places??? The world simply doesn't work like that unfortunately. The west knows it and so does anyone without rose colored glasses. Democracy and freedom is important only when it suits our interests. 

I for one will be glad when this whole thing is over. I don't see why the west including canada need to get involved in the Ukraine. Seriously, if there is upheaval in Mexico could you imagine Russian politicians on the streets of Mexico handing out food and god knows what else supporting the over throw if the elected government and for the USA not to react? It's ludicrous. Their military invades countries like Santa Claus gives out presents - they'd be into Mexico quicker then you could blink and they'd have all kinds of made up reasons to do so.

This is not an area of the world we need to be involved in IMHO.


----------



## humble_pie

the 7 OSCE representatives who were being held by pro-russian militia in east ukraine have been freed, the organization tweeted moments ago. 

sorry no link but it's coming to CNN


----------



## humble_pie

a story i'm looking for: in what ways are shadowy western military commanders assisting the feeble kiev government to suddenly whomp the eastern ukraine uprising so hard? on thursday night we're hearing from Turchinov & Yatsenyuk in kiev that their forces are "helpless," the dreaded hooligans are in control & violence is spreading even to towns in central ukraine.

only 12 hours later a revitalized ukraine military is fighting back effectively. What they're doing makes sense. Bust up the blockades first. Why don't they shut down power & water to all the occupied buildings? how are the thugs occupying the buildings getting food? disable food & water & they'll walk out sooner or later.

i guess setting a building on fire will bring em out sooner.

kiev didn't change its bumbling army overnight from helpless tin soldiers to effective terrorist fighters all by itself. Experienced western military have got to be in there "advising" them.

what's fascinating is how hidden, how subtle, how non-provocative the western command operation has managed to be. Is it a NATO operation? is it a US/british operation? all three? so far, there's nary a sign.


----------



## gibor365

_kiev didn't change its bumbling army overnight from helpless tin soldiers to effective terrorist fighters all by itself. Experienced western military have got to be in there "advising" them.

_

The other day I was watching Russian streaming news TV channel (btw, you can watch it for free - even without knowing language there are interesting documentaries , and they told that as per Russian source in military HQ in Kiev, there are western miliraties who came with US officials last months and stayed in Ukraine , and those guys are planning all operation of new ukranian government


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## gibor365

Nazi are back in Odessa.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire
_"The aim is to completely clear Odessa [of pro-Russians]," said Dmitry Rogovsky, another activist from Right Sector whose hand had been injured during the fighting. "They are all paid Russian separatists."_
_More than 30 people were killed in violent and chaotic clashes in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on Friday as pro-Ukraine activists stormed a building defended by protesters opposed to the current government in Kiev and in favour of closer ties with Russia._


----------



## humble_pie

there are no laws against travelling miliraties who share their expertise.

i believe it's when the foreign miliraties bring in land-to-air missile launchers & slick russian weapons like the russian soldiers are hauling in Slavyansk that folks get alarmed.

btw what, after all, is the "Russian source in military HQ in Kiev?"

is he a travelling miliratie also or is he just a plain old traitor
bet he didn't dare show his face on russian tv each:


----------



## gibor365

Have no idea if he paid by Russia or ideology "spy", but isn't it obvious why he doesn't want to show his face?!


----------



## humble_pie

so he could have been an actor or a stooge, right?

theoretically
speaking


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> so he could have been an actor or a stooge, right?
> 
> theoretically
> speaking


HP, you know very well that theoretically speaking, all pro-russian rebels can russian officers include grandmas  and all ukrainian offensive forces can be NATO officers 
but, if CCCP/RUSSIA had their sources/agents in US and even Nazi Germany , it's highly possible that Russia has their agents in Ukranian military HQ 

if Commander of the Naval Forces of Ukraine openly switches sides , than everything is possible 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Berezovsky


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## gibor365

US always yelling that behind uprising in Ukraine (now it's not only Eastern Ukraine , but Odessa - mama ) stays Russia, but where are facts/proves ?! So far that only "fact" I've heard, that without Russian military, rebels couldn't take down Ukranian chopper  
It reminds me Bush who was telling that he knows for sure about specific kind of weapon in Iraq, but no one ever found it....


----------



## humble_pie

but if he is actually a kremlin mole who's been deliberately infiltrated into the ukraine military at a high rank, it seems unwise for him to start acting out on popular russian TV, don't u think.

in any event what's it got to do with *proof* that US militaries are running all kiev military ops?

igor strelkov got busted. Strelkov is said to be a moscow-based russian secret services agent who was on active duty in east ukraine until very recently.

it was strelkov who displayed the 3 beaten ukrainian military prisoners in their underwear, with blood oozing from their eyes underneath blindfolds made out of sticky tape, to international TV cameras. It was strelkov who demanded their exchange for russian prisoners. Even dead livestock are not treated in such a disgusting manner.

there are plenty more well-documented cases of russians now fighting in east ukraine.


----------



## gibor365

_but if he is actually a kremlin mole who's been deliberately infiltrated into the ukraine military at a high rank, it seems unwise for him to start acting out on popular russian TV, don't u think.

_
He didn't act on Russian TV  In news bloc was said that as per source in Ukranian military HQ in Kiev ......
Interesting inreview with Strelkov: http://www.newsru.com/world/27apr2014/strelkov.html (you can use google translator to read)


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## thompsg4416

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/w...on=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article

An interesting article.


----------



## dogcom

Western media not to interested in the pro western murderers. The US really wants a cold war or war to mess up Russia and to make some money for defense contractors, deflect attention of the economic chaos in the world and to keep the dollar where it is in the world.

http://www.silverdoctors.com/us-media-covers-up-mass-murder-in-odessa/


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> Western media not to interested in the pro western murderers. The US really wants a cold war or war to mess up Russia and to make some money for defense contractors, deflect attention of the economic chaos in the world and to keep the dollar where it is in the world.
> 
> http://www.silverdoctors.com/us-media-covers-up-mass-murder-in-odessa/


Good thing that many Canadians and even Americans understand it!
US will probably tell again that those 30 in Odessa were Russian troops


----------



## thompsg4416

Back to the OP - I sold half of my Gazprom shares yesterday at a small profit(2%). I expect the upcoming referendum in the peoples republic of Donestk(or whatever they are calling themselves) to cause some waves. I expect they will vote in favor of sovereignty(Legitimately I'm not sure) and then Russia will recognize them and in a worst case scenario possibly move in peace keepers. That's set for May 11th. 

Lets get ready for a bumpy ride.


----------



## humble_pie

dogcom said:


> Western media not to interested in the pro western murderers. The US really wants a cold war or war to mess up Russia and to make some money for defense contractors, deflect attention of the economic chaos in the world and to keep the dollar where it is in the world.
> 
> http://www.silverdoctors.com/us-media-covers-up-mass-murder-in-odessa/



gosh there must be something i'm missing here. This link leads to yet another one of those burned-out, marginalized hucksters selling armageddon-end-of-known-world-is-upon-us-doom-&-gloom to extremely foolish & gullible novice investors.

what he's peddling are the usual caveats to hoard precious metals, buy food, guns & ammunition for the bunker. Especially ammo, he seems to be peddling an extensive line of lead there. All materiel to be bought from himself, of course.

i have to hand it to him, he might be a resourceful person. He's even trying to hustle herbal medicines on the side. Lookk under silver biotics. Although who would be foolish enough to ingest one single drop shipped out by an updated snake oil salesman.

who's going to read a website like this? those videos of the trade building fire in odessa? they were everywhere. Four (4) entire days ago.

a war of extreme tragedy is breaking out. I for one would be grateful for serious links, not crackpots.

PS (aside to gibor) "acting out" does not mean acting in english. In fact, the 2 verbs have nothing to do with each other. Strelkov does indeed "act out" when he emotes to the tv cameras.


----------



## humble_pie

speaking of serious links, this video will likely warm the hearts of the neo-cons in this thread:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/06/ukraine-says-30-pro-russian-insurgents-killed/

i don't agree with her, although she does articulate a conservative pov fairly well.

that final flapdoodle about the baltic states goes too far, though. I mean, she sez the kremlin is planning to pick a dogfight & sidle into latvia, lithuania & estonia just so they can engage NATO & hopefully destroy it? that does sound over the top imho.


----------



## thompsg4416

She sounds whacky. A full out wAr with NATO is really the last thing Putin wants. No one wins.


----------



## dogcom

Harper seems to be all for whatever may come of the situation and this scares me as a Canadian. Do canadians really feel as he does and try to be first in line for whatever the US comes up with without any thought of our own. 

I know I give out the crazy sites for what could be happening over there but the mainstream media seems to be the opposite of this.


----------



## thompsg4416

dogcom said:


> Harper seems to be all for whatever may come of the situation and this scares me as a Canadian. Do canadians really feel as he does and try to be first in line for whatever the US comes up with without any thought of our own.
> 
> I know I give out the crazy sites for what could be happening over there but the mainstream media seems to be the opposite of this.


Dogcom : Harper is playing (mainly domestic) politics. We as a country have very little trade with Russia and therefore nothing to lose by speaking out and everything to gain. Speaking out against Russia is popular with the indigenous Canadian/Ukrainian crowd as well as with our allies. So why not do it? For people who following things a bit closer then others, he sounds a bit of a fool(IMHO), but for people who have a Ukrainian background or those who don't over think it to much he's right on the money. 

regarding news coverage: I've found Mark McKinnon's coverage of the globe and mail pretty much on the level. Unlike alot of the so called experts the man has lived in Russia and has followed russia for some time. He's even written a book(the book was so so) on Russia which I read a few years ago. He seems to have a solid grasp of whats going on. He's far from pro-russian in fact likely the opposite but thats ok as long as the reporting is level and has substance. 

His latest article - 17 things I'd tell John Baird is pretty solid. Give it a read if you can.


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> Harper seems to be all for whatever may come of the situation and this scares me as a Canadian. Do canadians really feel as he does and try to be first in line for whatever the US comes up with without any thought of our own.
> 
> I know I give out the crazy sites for what could be happening over there but the mainstream media seems to be the opposite of this.


At the beginning of this thread, I think thompsg wrote that when Obama tells Harper to jump, Harper asks "how high?".... but lately Harper became more pro-active, he doesn't wait to US to ask him, he's asking "Can we jump first?"


----------



## humble_pie

i think mainstream western media is doing an ace A-1 fabulous job reporting all the ukraine facts, all the ambiguities, all the complexities, all the twisted propaganda on both sides.

as always, it's up to the reader to read between the lines, to take note of opposing points of view.

like everybody else, i'm reading the globe & mail, the ny times, the cbc, the guardian, the bbc, occasionally some partisan blogspots. And i'm getting both sides. And i'm finding that the journos are reporting everything accurately, fairly, impartially.

i'm not overly much into the pro-russian blogspots though, because i know that our gibor here is going to cover the moscow propaganda really well, so i rely upon him for that each:


----------



## Addy

gibor said:


> At the beginning of this thread, I think thompsg wrote that when Obama tells Harper to jump, Harper asks "how high?".... but lately Harper became more pro-active, he doesn't wait to US to ask him, he's asking "Can we jump first?"


Harper is starting his election pre-campaign. Tomorrow is "It's all about Me" day for Harper. My husband is a soldier and I am so saddened by the PR stunt planned for tomorrow.


----------



## gibor365

HP. when I lived in CCCP , Ithought (as many others) that Soviet propoganda 100% lie and Western (esp. US and A) 100% true..... now I'm 23 years living in Western world and I realize that all propogandas on both sides are 50/50  Do not believe anything, read many sources from both sides and make your own conclusion


----------



## humble_pie

gibor said:


> ... and I realize that all propogandas on both sides are 50/50  Do not believe anything, read many sources from both sides and make your own conclusion


oh i do, i do ... but how is it that you are such a dedicated russophile bullhorn, then?


----------



## humble_pie

i don't mean to be disrespectful. I don't think this video is disrespectful.

i think this fashion journalist has perfectly picked up on the war in ukraine. The wave of sombre talent, the blast of creative young textile artists coming to grips with the violence that surround them.

she shows some designers making not only clothes but also masks & body armour for demonstrators, rebels & bystanders.

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/fashion-week-internationale/ukrainian-fashion-week


----------



## m3s

humble_pie said:


> i don't mean to be disrespectful. I don't think this video is disrespectful.
> 
> http://www.vice.com/en_ca/fashion-week-internationale/ukrainian-fashion-week


I was going to link to Simon Ostrovsky's VICE videos at the start of this thread. That was before he was captured along with my neighbours. This video in Kiev reminds me of many cities I've been to during media attention in Europe, Asia, SA and even Canada. They all appeared to be complete chaos on TV. Nobody could understand that I was fine, and that it was business as usual a few blocks away. There are always so many perspectives missing from conventional news bites.

VICE is unconventional. They try to educate while maintaining that necessary entertainment value. Their journos look behind the scenes. They investigate stories before they're mainstream, and most importantly they speak in that unconventional human tone rather than the all-knowing-God-voice. It's far more realistic and down to Earth, albeit entertainment none the less. Mainstream fashion journos are normally expected in Kiev, but only VICE showed this time.



humble_pie said:


> i think mainstream western media is doing an ace A-1 fabulous job reporting all the ukraine facts, all the ambiguities, all the complexities, all the twisted propaganda on both sides.


The mainstream media uses dated conventions that reduce its educational value to nearly nothing. They mostly repeat the same sound bites all day long. They have lots of time and far more resources to seek out and shed light on the Boko Harams of the world, but they don't bother to cover them until after they do something really sensational. Add a few sounds bites to some stock footage and popular opinion in a professional voice and call it the news.

Jeff Semple from CBC sure sounded like he knew what he was talking about on the awoc.. but a few superfluous words create oxymorons and another dropped word makes his most important statement 100% untrue. Basically he has no clue what he's talking about, but he's good at making it sound like he does with that trained voice. He spent a day or 2 making a 2 minute clip, VICE spends weeks and months to make as many 25 minute clips as people will watch.



humble_pie said:


> What's fascinating is how hidden, how subtle, how non-provocative the western command operation has managed to be. Is it a NATO operation? is it a US/british operation? all three? so far, there's nary a sign.


There is no operation. They are training along the Ukrainian border. Should that change, they are nearby.

The military also has dated conventions in dealing with the media, just like how most hockey players repeat the exact same predictable cliché to sports journos with a straight face. See Stanley McChrystal's TED speech about classified material.. I think both media and the military/government have a lot to do to modernize their communication. Today we have amateur information overload, while the pros mostly keep to their premeditated information bites. I think people can handle real information today.


----------



## andrewf

I think the problem is that perhaps 10% of the general public is ready to accept a sophisticated or nuanced explanation of events or situations. The rest get slogans and soundbites. Politics is the same way. The discourse has to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator because the average voter can only (or only cares to) grasp 5 word phrases: "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan."


----------



## humble_pie

m3 i don't believe the military does as poor a media communications job as you seem to be suggesting. Nor do i believe the CBC went far wrong with their video on the ehWox.

on the contrary, this video presented many basic facts to viewers most of whom, prior to the ukraine uprisings, probably never even heard of NATO. I thought it was an excellent move on the part of NATO to authorize this filming.

m3 do u think it's possible you are suffering from a touch of clientitis? especially when you could have made a video yourself & it might very well have had a better quality?

moving on, this brings me to the issue of marginal media. I don't really want to get into a media discussion here. However i'm in favour of keeping & supporting traditional mainstream media because of their teams of experienced editors, researchers, checkers.

in the emerging media, a journo can say any old darn thing with impunity. In fact, anybody with a smartphone who happens to film & tweet at the scene of an accident is now a "journo."

the result is a cacophony of internet voices, some totally false, with almost no way to determine who is verifiable or or who is trustworthy. Bref, the internet has become Babel.

so i think we need the venerable news media of record now more than ever. We need the NY times, the globe & mail, the london times, the washington post, the CBC, reuters, bloomberg more than we ever did before. We need them to counteract uncontrolled freelance internet "journalism."

we can see this kind of lopsided internet posting upthread in this very same thread. Lopsided as in either vladimir putin is being demonized as the world's most insane & evil ogre; or else at the other end of the spectrum every move by russia is being sanctified as sainthood incarnate.

lastly, could i please take issue with this:



m3s said:


> ... There is no operation. They are training along the Ukrainian border. Should that change, they are nearby.


m3 what you did was, you quoted my remark way out of context. I wasn't referring to mobilizations in roumania.

what i was saying was that kiev was describing itself as "helpless" last week, then only 12 hours later started fighting back hard. This caused me to look for signs of sudden western military assistance. What's interesting is that these signs - if they do exist - are so extremely well hidden!

but you on the other hand seem to be referring to NATO mobilizations in poland, the baltic states & roumania as "training" but not an "operation."

perhaps it's a question of semantics? perhaps the word "operation" has a precise military meaning that i don't know about? to me the word "operation" has only a broad & general meaning.

when NATO flies extra fighter aircraft in roumania & the baltic states, when NATO deploys extra ships in the mediterranean or baltic seas, when NATO flies brand-new air surveillance missions across poland & roumania, when the US sends 150 extra paratroopers to NATO in poland while canada sends 50 extra troops to NATO - to me these activities spell out a military "operation."

i mean, those canadian planes didn't leave the saguenay to fly over to roumania for "training" just because the flying officers thought the east european girls might be cuter ...


----------



## thompsg4416

The results will be in for the regions where referendums were held a bit later today(my time). Interesting to see how it will play out. Of course the results will not be recognized internationally - but more importantly will Russia recognize the results? If so whats next? There will not be an annexation - this I can say with near certainty. However will Russia recognize the new regions as independent states like they did in South Ossetia and Abkhazia ? Will they possibly send in peace keepers? I sold my last chunk of gazprom on Friday (10% profit) due to the uncertainty of whats next. Simple recognizing them as independent may or may not incur sanctions but sending in peace keepers certainly will. 

Also a little farther out - I'm having trouble seeing how the May 25th elections will play out. The West (rightly IMHO) criticized Russia for having the Crimea referendum at "gun point". Can you have an election when there is an active rebellion and active military operations against your own people? The only other option is to continue with the current un-elected government which is in many eyes(even Ukrainian) illegitimate. Neither is a good option at this point. This has certainly turned into an epic chess match.


----------



## andrewf

^I think in this context, the term "peace keeping" requires some air quotes. More like more Russian pot-stirring.


----------



## humble_pie

thompsg4416 said:


> ... I sold my last chunk of gazprom on Friday (10% profit) due to the uncertainty of whats next. Simple recognizing them as independent may or may not incur sanctions but sending in peace keepers certainly will.


,

the US defence industry might be a better bet. Easier to follow, less vulnerable to political risk than russian stocks right now.

i would expect russia to send peacekeepers. I thought sanctions are being stepped up anyhow? sanctions are good imho. It's too bad they take so long to work. Long as in years. Sometimes never.


----------



## thompsg4416

humble_pie said:


> ,
> 
> the US defence industry might be a better bet. Easier to follow, less vulnerable to political risk than russian stocks right now.
> 
> i would expect russia to send peacekeepers. I thought sanctions are being stepped up anyhow? sanctions are good imho. It's too bad they take so long to work. Long as in years. Sometimes never.


Ozgpy was always meant to be a short term play for me. I sold and put my money on the sidelines for a while - generally I don't invest in Russian stocks. They sell at too much of a discount and as you say subject to political risk. The gov is also much to heavy handed in the economy for my taste.

Sanctions maybe stepped up. However as I said before, Russia isn't Iran, Syria, Iraq, Libya or any other small country. Sanctions can and will hurt them but they would be much harder to isolate then these others. The EU would be hit quite hard as well. To what end I'm not sure.


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> Ozgpy was always meant to be a short term play for me. I sold and put my money on the sidelines for a while - generally I don't invest in Russian stocks.


Don't like "short term play ", so just prefer DEM , good sector deversification, top holdings - best stocks from Russia, Brazil and China

_the US defence industry might be a better bet_ yes, but now looks kinda expensive.... I bought LMT last year below $88 when there were talks about military spendings cuts.... but I didn't believe that country that practically 24/7 at war with someone will really cut military spendings


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. Don't like *"short term play"*
> 2. the US defence industry might be a better bet...bought *LMT* last year below $88 when there were talks about military spendings cuts....
> 3. but I didn't believe *that country that practically 24/7 at war with someone* will really cut military spendings


*1.* But generally speaking, such plays can be quite profitable, *if* you i) select the right stock, and ii) have good entry/exit strategies. 

*2.* Couldn't agree more! A no brainer stock indeed, and not just from the world police [doubling from just 2012]. 

A lot of those cuts would have come automatically from having ended the long wars, so not exactly new cuts per se.

Projected spending cuts from 7% in the decade of two wars, to around 2% in the next decade? Unlikely.

*3.* You make it sound like the US of A is the current evil empire. There is little doubt in my mind that there will be a World War III, and there is also little doubt in my mind, that it will not be the US of A that will trigger it.


----------



## gibor365

_You make it sound like the US of A is the current evil empire. _ This is prejustice  I don't tell if all those wars were needed or not... but check the facts, after WWII.... Korea, Vietnam, Puerto Rica; Indochina War, Laos, Lebanon, Congo, Colombia, Dominican, Cambodia,
Afganistan, Iraq, Grenada, Libia, Iran, Panama, Serbia, Pakistan, Somalia....... Can you find any year when US weren't at war with someone?!


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. This is prejustice
> 2. I don't tell if all those wars were needed or not......


*1.* You mean prejudice.  Mostly just difference in POVs.
*2.* The list above is rather incomplete, LOL. But fair enough Gibor, you actually just believe that they should MTOB [but not always].


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* You mean prejudice.  Mostly just difference in POVs.
> *2.* The list above is rather incomplete, LOL. But fair enough Gibor, you actually just believe that they should MTOB [but not always].


Yeap, that's waht I meant and happy that you understood me 
Sorry, don't know what MTOB means 
btw, I've never could've understand why 2 biggest receivers of US military aid, for ages, two old "friends" Israel and Egypt


----------



## humble_pie

gibor said:


> I don't tell if all those wars were needed or not... but check the facts, after WWII.... Korea, Vietnam, Puerto Rica; Indochina War, Laos, Lebanon, Congo, Colombia, Dominican, Cambodia,
> Afganistan, Iraq, Grenada, Libia, Iran, Panama, Serbia, Pakistan, Somalia....... Can you find any year when US weren't at war with someone?!



the US was not at war with most of those countries.

gibor if you want to list all the countries where the US strives - in its own way, as washington decides - to defend its diplomatic, military & economic interests, your list would have to include every single country on the planet.

all great powers strive the same way. Russia strives. China strives. It's a fact of life.


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> all great powers strive the same way. Russia strives. China strives. It's a fact of life.


Agree  So it may be a good think to have exposure not only to US "military" stocks, but to Russia's like Sukhoi or Mikoyan (not sure if they are treaded on markets).... Is any "military" international ETF?


----------



## humble_pie

... you have a good soldier saying upthread that the great powers need to get rid of all that stale old cold war stuff & they need to update to new weapons


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> 1. what MTOB means
> 2. I've never could've understand why 2 biggest receivers of US military aid, for ages, two old "friends" Israel and Egypt


*1.* Mind their own business, that's what you believe the US should do [at all times?].

*2.* The aid is not nearly as simplistic and as generous as some believe it to be. In most cases, every cent comes back to the US. There are also very complex/important reciprocities involved, which I'm sure you're fully aware of.


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* Mind their own business, that's what you believe the US should do [at all times?].
> 
> *2.* The aid is not nearly as simplistic and as generous as some believe it to be. In most cases, every cent comes back to the US. There are also very complex/important reciprocities involved, which I'm sure you're fully aware of.


1. Yes, until UN won't decide to act.
2. Don't know what "reciprocities " means  ... and don't know about Egypt, but yes, Israel should use about 80% to buy US stuff and in many cases much more expensive than Israel could've buy on free market..... however , still, it wierd when old "friends" are the biggest receivers...


----------



## humble_pie

what we have been able to witness for several years now is that the UN has over-bureaucratized itself & superannuated itself. In particular, the ideal of one-country-one-vote has come back to haunt with a vengeance, because now small islamic countries can band together & outvote the great powers on every issue. And they do.

everything then devolves to the 5-member Security Council, which is hamstrung.

this reduces the UN to a supremely expensive manhattan skyscraper full of gibbering jawboners but no action.

on a practical level, the world's biggest supra-national military power - the only one that is able to act in less than 81 years plus several asteroids' weight of minutes & deliberations - is NATO. Like it or not, NATO is now the world's de facto military policeman.

not surprisingly russia feels left out & threatened by this fact. However a number of westerners seem to understand the russian attitudes extraordinarily well, so i am hopeful that NATO will be able to navigate accordingly.

one of the westerners who seems to have a good grasp of russian attitudes is, mirabile dictu, general philip breedlove himself, who is the NATO supreme commander in europe.


----------



## gibor365

_one of the westerners who seems to have a good grasp of russian attitudes is, mirabile dictu, general philip breedlove himself, who is the NATO supreme commander in europe. _ but who is selecting NATO commanders? It can be that some smart and understanding guy in command and can be some idiot like McCain.... 
Or think about NATO bombing of Yugoslavia !!! This is war crime by itself

Also "_according to Gorbachev, Baker looked at him directly and said, "Look, if you remove your troops and allow unification of Germany in NATO, NATO will not expand one inch to the east."_ and where is NATO now?!
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/08/13/a_diplomatic_mystery


----------



## mrPPincer

another post by Caspian Report for anyone interested..
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=476_1399997431


----------



## humble_pie

respected economist Mohamed El Erian sees link from ukraine to global recession.

he says that sector sanctions in finance & energy - which are the next step up from the west - will trigger counter-sanctions from russia in the form of gas export restrictions to europe.

with no cooperation in sight & with none of the several parties being willing to sit down & negotiate, the next sanction level could result in global recession, with markets first selling off "very violently," el erian says.

the US will not be immune, he adds.

http://money.cnn.com/video/investin...cession-risk.cnnmoney/index.html?iid=V_Series

(totally off topic - the re-creation of broken, bankrupt greater detroit is a story i like to keep an eye on, because there are so very many positive & creative ideas fomenting there. We've never seen a great north American city near-levelled before. Now there is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to sketch a better future upon a blank canvas.)

(at the beginning of the El Erian video is a little ad showing a small community-based detroit food company as it prepares & serves nutritious breakfasts to very young inner city detroit children. Evidently the company received a grant from chase manhattan bank ... the hope is mesmerizing.)

(the above was not a paid advertisement each


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> "_according to Gorbachev, Baker looked at him directly and said, "Look, if you remove your troops and allow unification of Germany in NATO, NATO will not expand one inch to the east."_


They all make/break [real or invented] promises, it's realpolitik.

On that topic, I'm currently reading *'Out of the Cold - The Cold War and Its Legacy' *- by: Fitzgerald & Packwood.

So 'Chocolate King' is apparently leading in the polls, but will there be an election? Not much time from now until May 25th.


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> They all make/break [real or invented] promises, it's realpolitik.


The funny point that Baker admitted that he promised it, but said that he meant East Germany?! What a joke  How he could've mean East Germany if Germany were supposed to be reunited?!


----------



## Toronto.gal

*Your linked article:* 'In diplomacy, always make sure your eyes are saying exactly what your lips do'.

*Link below:* 'The Soviets insisted that everything be documented in writing, even when all that was at issue was the fate of Soviet military cemeteries in East Germany. However, the numerous agreements and treaties of the day contained not a single word about NATO expansion in Eastern Europe. For this reason, the West argues, Moscow has no cause for complaint today. After all, the West did not sign anything regarding NATO expansion to the east. But is that tough stance fair?'

http://www.spiegel.de/international...est-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> *Your linked article:* 'In diplomacy, always make sure your eyes are saying exactly what your lips do'.
> 
> 
> http://www.spiegel.de/international...est-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html


Reading this article proves once more "'One Cannot Depend on American Politicians'"


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> "'One Cannot Depend on American Politicians'"


Only on Russian politicians, right?


----------



## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> Only on Russian politicians, right?


All politicians are the same  So, no need to yell that only Putin is liar .....


----------



## Toronto.gal

gibor said:


> All politicians are the same.....


Pretty much what I said, that all make/break promises. 

As well, and to use one of Nemo's quotes [while he's having fun in Budapest], 'weakness invites aggression.'


----------



## gibor365

_For starters, Andriy Parubiy, the new secretary of Ukraine's security council, was a co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), otherwise known as Svoboda. And his deputy, Dmytro Yarosh, is the leader of a party called the Right Sector which, according to historian Timothy Stanley, "flies the old flag of the Ukrainian Nazi collaborators at its rallies." 

The highest-ranking right-wing extremist is Deputy Prime Minister Oleksandr Sych, also a member of Svoboda, who believes that women should "lead the kind of lifestyle to avoid the risk of rape, including refraining from drinking alcohol and being in controversial company." This is the philosophy underlying one of his "legal initiatives," according to the Kyiv Post, "to ban all abortions, even for pregnancies that occurred during rape."

The Svoboda party has tapped into Nazi symbolism including the "wolf's angel" rune, which resembles a swastika and was worn by members of the Waffen-SS, a panzer division that was declared a criminal organization at Nuremberg. A report from Tel-Aviv University describes the Svoboda party as "an extremist, right-wing, nationalist organization which emphasizes its identification with the ideology of German National Socialism."
_

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html


----------



## Toronto.gal

So from the 21 candidates, Ukrainians rallied behind pro-European Petro Poroshenko's 'New way of living' campaign, to give him a 54% victory in the 1st round of voting, with Tymoshenko coming at a distant 13%.

'Whether Mr. Poroshenko succeeds in restoring Kiev’s order in the south east of the country largely depend on Russia. The Kremlin stoked the conflict and keeps it going, not least through a massive misinformation campaign that portrays the Kiev government as fascist junta. The fact that leaders of ultra-nationalist parties barely got 1% of the vote in yesterday’s elections does seem to bother Russian propagandists.'
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2014/05/ukraines-election-0


----------



## thompsg4416

Toronto.gal said:


> 'Whether Mr. Poroshenko succeeds in restoring Kiev’s order in the south east of the country largely depend on Russia.
> http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2014/05/ukraines-election-0


I think this is a very important statement - in fact my take away is that it's likely one of the most important. Right or wrong Russia's interests and the Russian/Ukrainian relationship must be taken into account at all times. Otherwise there will never be stability. If anything Russia has at least demonstrated this. Moving forward for the sake of everyone involved hopefully Mr. Poroshenko leaves any sort of dreamy ideology behind and sticks to realpolitik. It's simply a fact of life when you share a border with Russia. In fact for comparison sake, I'm not sure the Americans would be much different if push came to shove in their back yard. Its simply how things work. It's a friendly reminder that we aren't so far from our caveman days as we like to think


----------



## humble_pie

reportedly there were 100 of those russian trucks, each identically covered in a white canvas tarpaulin.

but the videos all show that when the trucks were finally opened inside east ukraine war zones on their mission of mercy assistance, they contained practically nothing. A few sacks, nothing more. Where were the generators & medical supplies?

it occurs to me that the trucks' real purpose might have been to pick up russian weapons inside ukraine - including anti-aircraft missiles like the BUK system that downed the malaysian passenger airliner last month, killing all 200 passengers & crew - & hurry the deadly materiel back to russia before the kiev ukraine army arrives ...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ct-invasion-as-aid-convoy-crosses-border.html


----------



## mrPPincer

Garry Kasparov talks to Aljazeera:
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes...-kasparov-putin-russia-20148211625650679.html

The exiled Russian chess player, (considered by many to be the greatest chess player of all time), shares his thoughts on the Ukraine crisis and explains why Putin is everybody's problem.

(The interview was posted on Aljazeera yesterday august 23).


----------



## humble_pie

but then there's this, from russia, with love:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...cenes-with-the-Mariinsky-Ballet-in-class.html


the mariinsky ballet - also known as the kirov ballet - attends early morning class in london, england, two weeks ago.

i'm not so crazy about Andrei, the principal male dancer, alone by himself at the barre in the foreground. He's a bit too recently off the farm, for my taste.

but check out the vision in the black quilted sleeveless vest just behind him. They say she's named Victoria, but her earthly name doesn't matter. Also a principal dancer, she's a star fallen from heaven.

watch Victoria, starting at minute 10:15. This is 300 years of russian pavlova perfection distilled into one exquisite, boneless, floating girl. They say ballet was developed in russia as a court entertainment strictly for the tsars. You can see why.

plus i love the ageless strutting teacher, he's his own perfect caricature. _Pappa dee pappa dah plieh plieh._ 

isn't he wonderful, dyed hair & all? is he 55, 60, 70? he'll dance forever ...
.


----------



## rford

humble_pie said:


> reportedly there were 100 of those russian trucks, each identically covered in a white canvas tarpaulin.
> 
> but the videos all show that when the trucks were finally opened inside east ukraine war zones on their mission of mercy assistance, they contained practically nothing. A few sacks, nothing more. Where were the generators & medical supplies?
> 
> it occurs to me that the trucks' real purpose might have been to pick up russian weapons inside ukraine - including anti-aircraft missiles like the BUK system that downed the malaysian passenger airliner last month, killing all 200 passengers & crew - & hurry the deadly materiel back to russia before the kiev ukraine army arrives ...
> 
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ct-invasion-as-aid-convoy-crosses-border.html



you should actually look up the BUK launcher online and then ask yourself how they are going to fit that system into one of those tiny trucks. they would need a full-on tractor carrier that caterpillar uses for moving heavy machinery.


----------



## lonewolf

Ukraine is it creating a wall of worry ?

Latest investors intelligence survey second lowest number of bears since 1987


----------



## humble_pie

here's dutch NATO brigadier-general Nico Tak to tell us about all the big bad russian weapons & armed soldiers that have apparently lost their way & strayed over the border into ukraine recently.
.







.

but wait! aren't those satellite pictures the ones that russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov says are only "computer games?"

who'd imagine that NATO would ever do something so naughty? fabricate computer games in a campaign to convince us how evil russia really is?

would NATO do a thing like that just when it's asking western nations to up their NATO contributions? asking canada to double from 1% of national budget to 2%? rattling the sabre while holding out the donation cup just before all the top brass meet at the NATO summit in wales next week, under intense media scrutiny?

apparently canada has said No to the 2% but it will increase its contributions to selected aspects of the russian containment program.


----------



## andrewf

You really think it is more likely that NATO is lying than Russia? 

Wow.

And the ask is not to hand over 2%of GDP in cash, but to spend that amount on each country's own armed forces. Canada does not write a cheque for 20 billion dollars to Brussels every year.


----------



## humble_pie

oh stop making up accusations, i took no sides, never used the *L* word, never implied one side or the other was definitely fluffing, instead merely poked fun at the clash between their statements, i showed general Tak's video, don't you think he sounds convincing?

i think general Tak sounds convincing.

i've gone on record in cmf as saying i strongly favour NATO support. They are the only trained organism in the world that comes close to a global police force, which the planet desperately needs. The UN is never going to be able to float anything similar, the voting structure is too disparate.

i also think it's transparently clear that the NATO nobs are out beating the PR drum for support immediately prior to the summit coming up next week in Wales. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, i think they'd be remiss if they didn't. 

NATO is getting good press these days. Not only is ukraine seeking decisively to join NATO as of yesterday, but globe & mail chief euro correspondent Eric Reguly is telling us that tiny Montenegro - where canadian tycoon Peter Munk has built a yachting resort in the pretty port city of Tivat - now wants to sign up under NATO's protective flag, too.


----------



## m3s

The Montenegrins have been training to NATO standards for quite awhile, under the Bundeswehr, like the Mongolians. On a NATO base in SW Asia I had to google what that flag was on the soldiers defending the base, but I've since travelled across their beautiful country. I don't think Montenegro will have much implication regards to Ukraine, but certainly Bulgaria (public info now 12xUSAF F-15s have moved there) and also Lithuania (where the CF-18s have relocated from Roumania) Note that Russia still holds a small piece of land in the Baltics.. next to Lithuania.

Canada cut back a lot of funding and manning from NATO just before the whole Ukraine thing began, which I don't necessarily disagree with. I've always agreed with the 2% GDP as a reasonable target for Canada though. It's much less efficient to always be stretching resources whenever demands come up in more than one place. Canada is already taking action with the MENA situation at the same time as Ukraine, neither of which will go away anytime soon, at a time when we were supposed to be refocusing on home sovereignty and response to increasing natural disasters etc.


----------



## humble_pie

m3 wondering if you would have an opinion of incoming secretary general Jens Stoltenberg you could share?

they say he has a good relationship with vladimir putin, might be able to shift things into a new skew ...

re the border wanderings of the russian soldiers, the media say they were headed for Mariupol. The intent was - & probably still is - to build a land bridge from russia to crimea.


----------



## heritagehomes

*Bangalore real estate*

Villas in Sarjapur Road Bangalore


----------



## humble_pie

speaking of NATO, here's a good birds-eye wrapup of the little-known multinational military organism:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/how-vladimir-putin-reinvigorated-nato/article20285508/

many eyes next week should turn towards cardiff, wales, as the NATO brass hobnob about how to solve the world's problems.

something that baffles me is that the new NATO anti-nuclear air defence ring in the process of being built up & down eastern europe - the one that so aggravates the kremlin, who see it as aimed their way - is in fact a defence against rogue nuclear weapons being launched from southwest asian rogue nations such as pakistan & iran.

given that this is the case, would it not be in russia's long-term interest to support the air defence ring? does russia judge that it will be immune to nuclear attack itself? if not, would russia not see that its long-term interests lie in getting along with europe? why would russia continue to be so provocative over ukraine right now?

another poster far upthread - himself an experienced military officer - has pointed to recent highly successful russia/western cooperative initiaves such as the Hadfield space mission. He lamented how these recent days of excellent cooperation with russia now suddenly seem to be lost.


----------



## gibor365

Who is new Ukranian president?!
_In 2006, John Herbst, US Ambassador to Ukraine, described Poroshenko as a "disgraced oligarch." Later that same year Sheila Gwaltney, Deputy Chief of Mission at the US Embassy in Ukraine, said that "Poroshenko was tainted by credible corruption allegations."
._
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ4BrR7L8OE


----------



## gibor365

Netherlands is now saying it will Not release findings of MH17 Investigation, and that definitely implies
that Ukraine Shot it down. Russia provided Radar showing Ukraine Jets dogging MH17, directed to Fly 14Ks 
off-Route by Ukraine. 
All Poroshenko achieved to date is establish himself 
as an inveterate liar, and that is an indictment against all who pretend to believe him.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-ca...ium-signed-a-non-disclosure-agreement/5397194


----------



## dogcom

Gibor this is all about destabilizing the world and causing wars as the US empire, economy and dollar goes into decline. War always follows economic chaos or collapse.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...tion-middle-east-warns-whole-region-will-blow

Many people on this forum think it is no big deal to poke Russia and not worry about their massive nuclear weapon stockpile. Russia doesn't need to hit the west with its bombs to destroy the world it just needs to set them off. Still however you can't let a country do whatever it wants nuclear stockpile or not and I am talking about both the US and Russia.


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> Gibor this is all about destabilizing the world and causing wars as the US empire, economy and dollar goes into decline. War always follows economic chaos or collapse.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...tion-middle-east-warns-whole-region-will-blow
> 
> .


well said "_
The US supported the opposition in Ukraine thinking that Russia will do nothing. But Crimea is strategically important to Russia since it gives their fleet access to the Mediterranean and the Middle East. And so, by supporting the opposition in Ukraine, the Americans essentially removed a democratically elected president. He may have been incompetent, but he was democratically elected nevertheless.

That’s democracy! In democracy you have incompetent people at the top.

The Americans also thought they can push the Russians a bit further by trying to lure Ukraine into NATO. That was a step too far and so the Russians reacted by signing a gas deal with China! The significance of this deal lies in that the payment will no longer be made in Dollars but in local currency, the Ruble or Yuan._


----------



## gibor365

Slovakia’s Prime Minister Robert Fico slammed European Union sanctions on Russia as “meaningless and counterproductive” and threatened to veto additional measures, highlighting the internal divide within the EU over its tough stance on Russia. 

Who else wants future discount on Russian gas?!


----------



## sags

I hear what you are saying Humble.........but in a question - answer session with some students, Putin took the opportunity to leave no doubt that Russia is a nuclear nation and would not hesitate to use their arsenal to defend itself.

Should Iran......Pakistan.....Iraq.......or anywhere else be so unfortunate as to have a nuclear missile launched at Russia from their country......I have little doubt they would suffer the most severe consequences. Russia would not be convening a meeting.........or open for discussions. They would retaliate and they would do so as soon as they figured out where the missile originated from.

Perhaps Putin believes Russia's nuclear arsenal and willingness to use it.............is enough of a deterrent.


----------



## gibor365

_Putin took the opportunity to leave no doubt that Russia is a nuclear nation and would not hesitate to use their arsenal to defend itself.
_ and somebody were anticipating that Putin will tell that Russia better die that use nuke ?!


----------



## sags

Russia is interested in development of the Arctic. Russian fighters have been poking around near Canadian air space. 

Harper takes a trip to the Arctic.........a yearly visit.........but nevertheless very timely.

Putin warns of Russia's nuclear arsenal. Putin sends troops into Ukraine and calls for a division into a separate country.

Putin isn't backing down from anyone...........nor is he showing any signs of being intimidated by NATO or the US.

The end result appears a foregone conclusion. The Ukraine will be divided up and Russia will keep some control over part of it.


----------



## humble_pie

sags said:


> ... The end result appears a foregone conclusion. The Ukraine will be divided up and Russia will keep some control over part of it.



yes, i think so. It's the stealth takeover. Putin never does anything hyper-outrageous, he just sort of insinuates russia onto the territories, don't you think.

if russia has sevastopol plus crimea, then from russia's pov it might as well ask for the provinces that lie between it & crimea, namely donetsk & luhansk ... then i wonder where will the west hold the line ...


----------



## m3s

humble_pie said:


> speaking of NATO, here's a good birds-eye wrapup of the little-known multinational military organism:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/how-vladimir-putin-reinvigorated-nato/article20285508/
> 
> given that this is the case, would it not be in russia's long-term interest to support the air defence ring? does russia judge that it will be immune to nuclear attack itself? if not, would russia not see that its long-term interests lie in getting along with europe? why would russia continue to be so provocative over ukraine right now?


Unfortunately for Ukraine, it seems to me this crisis benefits both Russia and NATO. Russia expands.. NATO expands.. Putin is relevant on the world stage again.. NATO is relevant on the world stage again.. If needless fighting was avoided it might even benefit the Ukrainians themselves, but that is harder to say for sure.

The Crimeans are said to benefit from Russian investments, increased salaries and pensions to Russian levels, while Russia saves the cost of renting a naval base. Western Ukraine and the EU could similarly benefit from closer ties. Remember the riots in Kiev over trade agreements with the EU? EU would likely invest heavily in Ukraine after the crisis as well.

The Western media repeated over and over how the annexation of Crimea was the first since WWII. However, Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in 2008 thanks to NATO military intervention, which Russia does not recognize either. What is the benefit of Ukraine staying together in isolation from the EU and Russia?


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> Unfortunately for Ukraine, it seems to me this crisis benefits both Russia and NATO. Russia expands.. NATO expands.. Putin is relevant on the world stage again.. NATO is relevant on the world stage again.. If needless fighting was avoided it might even benefit the Ukrainians themselves, but that is harder to say for sure.
> 
> The Crimeans are said to benefit from Russian investments, increased salaries and pensions to Russian levels, while Russia saves the cost of renting a naval base. Western Ukraine and the EU could similarly benefit from closer ties ...
> 
> What is the benefit of Ukraine staying together in isolation from the EU and Russia?




merit probably resides 100% in this view i suspect.

would this not mean that, for the sake of civilians now suffering intensely in the east ukraine war, they should get it over with as fast as possible? they being kiev & moscow? they should negotiate a partition of ukraine & cease fire?

the trade-off is that moscow would have to back off northern europe.

there are worse things that could happen to western ukraine than to join the EU & prosper.


----------



## humble_pie

globe & mail's mark mackinnon sees the writing on the wall too.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ne-nato-told-ahead-of-summit/article20296698/

NATO is not going to act to hold ukraine together & Petroshenko is going to get this memo at the NATO summit in a couple days, he says.

but former US state department official stephen krasner says that NATO must hold the line in northern europe on the baltic states & must make its readiness to fight clear to russia.

re the russo-chinese gas pipeline, i don't see how this is related to developments in ukraine. It's been in the works for a decade already. AFAIK there are smaller pipelines that are already exporting gas from russia into china, this new one will be a giant capacity pipe. It didn't spring out of thin air in the 6 short months since russia invaded crimea.

russia has made no secret of its swing towards china. Talk of paying for commodities in yuan has been around for years, the *new* china/russia/brazil/india/south africa investment banking authority is actually a fairly old concept.


----------



## athwds

So what are the buying opportunities here? 88 pages is tough to slog through.


----------



## humble_pie

it occurs to me that it's in chameleon vladimir putin's best interest to keep ukraine together & to ensure that east ukraine remains part of ukraine after all, although with greatly increased autonomous regional powers.

this might be because a ukraine divided into 2 entirely separate states would likely see west ukraine join the EU & possibly eventually NATO as well.

whereas one federated ukraine, with fractious, rebellious east ukraine not really under kiev's control, would perhaps not be welcome in the EU & would most likely not be welcome at all in NATO.

a federated but undivided ukraine could mean russia ending up with crimea & possibly a land corridor from russia to crimea along the black sea coast, along with a friendly east ukraine with an open ukraine/russian border. Plus the EU & NATO would get fenced off at a far distance, no closer than the eastern border of roumania, which is exactly where they were to start out with.


----------



## uptoolate

sags said:


> Russian fighters have been poking around near Canadian air space.


lol. I seriously doubt it, unless you're referring to an appearance at an air show or two.


----------



## mrPPincer

Actually sags is right, Russia is busily mapping every square inch of the arctic sea bed with nuclear subs, while in the meantime Harper has cut all scientific funding, shutting down our only scientific research stations up there, yet he keeps shooting his mouth off.. inexplicable, only option is to turf him come the next federal election as I see it.


----------



## humble_pie

uptoolate said:


> lol. I seriously doubt it, unless you're referring to an appearance at an air show or two.



? uptoolate quite a bit farther back in this thread you have an rcaf officer documenting how russian fighter jets fly into canadian air space relatively frequently & how they are always met & escorted back out by the F18s ...


----------



## uptoolate

Humble the forum has this convenient 'quote' feature... Perhaps you could use it to show me where I made such a statement. I don't recall saying such a thing and would never have believed it true if I heard it. Bears and maybe back in the day the odd Backfire might probe air defense capabilities but fighters? Sags may be right about some things but fighters near Canadian air space given the current state of the Russian military is quite a reach. Of course, perhaps we don't share the same definition of the word 'near'.


----------



## humble_pie

late i'll be happy to show you again where you disputed sags' post. It's your message No. 875 just upthread. Here, i'll quote it again. You are disputing sags' claim that russian fighter aircraft intrude into canadian air space.




uptoolate said:


> lol. I seriously doubt it, unless you're referring to an appearance at an air show or two.



i referred to the rcaf officer who had already documented what sags said. That russian fighter jets regularly intrude into canadian air space & they are routinely met by F18s & escorted back out.

he - the officer - has been a member on here much longer than you have yourself. Originally from the very squadron that flies the F18s, he is highly accurate, practical & reliable. I cannot help it if you are not able to understand what he posts.


----------



## uptoolate

Ah humble I see. I misunderstood your meaning. Your statement was, "you have an rcaf officer documenting how russian fighter jets fly into canadian air space". My understanding of this was that I had said that an RCAF officer had said that Russian fighter jets flew into Canadian air space. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Perhaps the use of the pronoun 'one' instead of 'you'. At any rate, I would stand by my statement that it is unlikely that Russian fighters were flying into Canadian air space. I haven't gone back to check the statement made by the RCAF pilot but I apologize for my disbelief. Again, I would believe that long range aircraft do probe air defense capabilities but I am skeptical of Russian fighters on are borders. Sorry for the skepticism and misunderstanding.


----------



## humble_pie

uptoolate said:


> ... At any rate, I would stand by my statement that it is unlikely that Russian fighters were flying into Canadian air space. I haven't gone back to check the statement made by the RCAF pilot but I apologize for my disbelief. Again, I would believe that long range aircraft do probe air defense capabilities but I am skeptical of Russian fighters on are borders



i was myself quite surprised when he posted about the russian fighter jets in canadian air space & about how it's routine to promptly fly to escort them back out ... but he's an excellent air force officer with considerable experience, so i listen with respect when he speaks.


----------



## uptoolate

Thanks humble. I will too then (listen to him that is). I know that there is alot we never hear about but I'd love to hear more about what Russian fighter might be found flying into our airspace. The Russian's best fighter, the Su-27 and its variants, wouldn't seem to have the endurance, even with repeated in-flight refueling, to make such a flight without incredible risk. As I said, love to hear more about things we never get to hear about. Have a good night. Off to bed for me.


----------



## humble_pie

late you are right about the pronouns ... i should have said "we have" as in "cmf forum has" an air force officer ... but the 2nd person pronoun "you" is used to convey both the singular & the plural, it's often used in colloquial speech to mean the group (which is how i meant it) rather than the individual (who would have been yourself)(which i was not meaning) ...


----------



## uptoolate

Yes i know, could go either way. Our wonderful language. I've got it now though. I was trying to PM you but your inbox is full! I was asking directions to the comment from the pilot. You have piqued my curiosity.


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## m3s

Actually the Russian provocations reported in NA this summer were far greater than I can ever remember pre-Ukraine-crisis. But if you check back 50 pages nobody actually said anything about fighters.



> Russian strategic nuclear bombers conducted *at least 16* incursions into northwestern U.S. air defense identification zones over the past *10 days*, an unusually sharp increase in aerial penetrations, according to U.S. defense officials... Russia has been sharply increasing the activities, especially in the Pacific Northwest near Alaska, *Canada*, and the West Coast.


source

The regular monthly probing by Russian cruise missile platforms, strategic bombers, surveillance/intelligence gathering etc do not even make the news in Canada, as it has gone on for decades.

Meanwhile, NORAD and NATO had both been conducting joint exercises with Russian military aircraft, including fighters, off the coast of Alaska and Spain respectively.


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## uptoolate

Thanks m3s. This is not news to me. My issue was with sorties by 'fighter' aircraft into Canadian air space and I don't count those that are on joint maneuvers with our forces.


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## humble_pie

look again, late. They're not all joint manoeuvres. The rate of "provocations" increased substantially. 

i was remembering from a post far upthread, more than a month ago. Intruding bombers, fighter aircraft, does it matter? you're not saying now that you're serenely happy with intruding bombers but incredulous over intruding fighter jets, i hope?


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## uptoolate

To be honest I'm not that concerned with either but I like to keep things accurate and there is a big difference (in my mind) between a lumbering, propeller driven Bear bomber and an Su-27 or a Mig-31. People think that just because Clint Eastwood flies a supersonic fighter over the pole that every Russian jet jockey is doing it. At this point Canadian CF-18s are getting much closer to Russian air space than vice versa.


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> ... Meanwhile, NORAD and NATO had both been conducting joint exercises with Russian military aircraft, including fighters, off the coast of Alaska and Spain respectively.



wondering what dates attach to this plus-que-parfait tense of the verb "had been."

sounds like the joint exercises have definitely ended, ie they were a thing of the past. They "are" not ongoing at present, as uptoolate seems to believe.

would it not be bizarre, in the current war of words & sanctions between the US, canada, most of europe & russia, to have NATO & russia sweetly flying their war machines around together, in brotherly harmony, off the coast of spain?


----------



## humble_pie

i'm a stickler for accuracy myself. 

we have been talking about hostile provocations in the Arctic. We have *never* been talking about this frivolous situation:




uptoolate said:


> lol. I seriously doubt it, unless you're referring to an appearance at an air show or two.


----------



## m3s

uptoolate said:


> To be honest I'm not that concerned with either but I like to keep things accurate and there is a big difference (in my mind) between a lumbering, propeller driven Bear bomber and an Su-27 or a Mig-31.


Well one of them can potentially wipe a city full of people off the map anywhere in the world (strategic long range nuclear bomber) while the other can potentially only shoot a few aircraft from the sky within a relatively short range (interceptor/air superiority fighter). I think humble just used the term fighter loosely as many people do.

Another thing to note is that Russia is violating treaty by developing and testing a new cruise missile. I do appreciate you taking the unpopular side here. I follow the Russian headlines and they are night and day from the Western perspective. For example, NATO promised not to expand east toward Russia's border..



> A Russian Defense Ministry statement on the cruise missile test launches said a Tu-95 bomber “is capable of destroying the critical stationary assets of an enemy with cruise missiles, in daytime and nighttime, in any weather and in any part of the globe.”


----------



## uptoolate

No I never said these exercises were currently under way. It was commented others. Russian fighter jets are seen at air shows around the world. In another thread we were talking about Russia buying warships from France. Strange times. I was only remarking on the veracity of Russian fighter jets making incursions into Canadian air space. I at no point suggested that Russian planes were not flying near our air space. This has been going on for over 60 years - in both directions - by long range bomber and reconnaissance aircraft. That is all.


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## sags

It appears "my" mistake for posting "fighters", rather than "bombers" has created some CMF kerfluffle. 

It was my mistake and not Humbles........I apologize to everyone.

Russian long range bombers have for a long time poked around Canadian airspace. A relative of my wife was stationed at Alsask, Alberta for a number of years back in the 1980s,....which was a listening post for NORAD. Eavesdropping on Russian pilots near Canadian/US airspace was what they did there. But the number of flights have dramatically increased of late, and the purpose appears to have changed into the more serious forays of "testing the response" than simple Russian training missions.

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/...rs-keep-roaming-closer-to-us-airspace/375791/

Interesting to note............that Putin chooses now as a good time to dispatch a convoy of ships to the Arctic...........to continue building and establishing a permanent military base there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-sends-naval-convoy-reopen-military-base.html

Putin seems intent on poking around, sending a message, whatever he is doing.......without much concern for political niceties.

It probably has no connection.....but PM Harper recently completed an annual trip to the Arctic, as a show of sovereignty.


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## uptoolate

Thanks Sags. Whew!. Actually I just should have gone with 'we know what you meant...' and held my tongue. Almost the proverbial mountain out of a molehill and I'm afraid I was the instigator. Cheers.


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## sags

uptoolate said:


> Thanks Sags. Whew!. Actually I just should have gone with 'we know what you meant...' and held my tongue. Almost the proverbial mountain out of a molehill and I'm afraid I was the instigator. Cheers.


I don't mind being corrected for factual errors.........I learn something from it as well.

I did write that Russian "fighters" had been poking around Canadian airspace.........because that is how I misread the article.

It is a completely different story when involving long range "bombers", which as you pointed out is nothing new.

The only thing new apparently........is the number or sorties and "perhaps" the political intentions.


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## gibor365

On the other hand....
Ukraine crisis: Canada's jets edge closer to Russian airspace
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukr...ets-edge-closer-to-russian-airspace-1.2749672


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## mrPPincer

lol 
still, Russia is spending far more resources on exploring the Arctic sea than we are.

The Harper gov't is notoriously anti-science, and has cut funding up there, which is why all his anti-Putin tough talk annoys me as much as it does.

We should be cooperating and sharing data on our northern borders and all Harper's rhetoric will not help IMHO.

If relations with our Russian neighbours become increasingly hostile because of his toothless yipping then I can see Canada having more difficulty defending our sovereignty on our part the arctic seabed; a potentially vast source of untapped future resources.
Just my opinion.


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## gibor365

Sure, Russia exploring the Arctic for centures, even before first European arrived to Canada
_We should be cooperating and sharing data on our northern borders and all Harper's rhetoric will not help IMHO._ 

Agree that cooperation/sharing data will greatly benefit both countries... Harper should understand what is better for Canada and stop being Obama's puppy "who barking at elephant"


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## sags

mrPPincer said:


> lol
> still, Russia is spending far more resources on exploring the Arctic sea than we are.
> 
> The Harper gov't is notoriously anti-science, and has cut funding up there, which is why all his anti-Putin tough talk annoys me as much as it does.
> 
> We should be cooperating and sharing data on our northern borders and all Harper's rhetoric will not help IMHO.
> 
> If relations with our Russian neighbours become increasingly hostile because of his toothless yipping then I can see Canada having more difficulty defending our sovereignty on our part the arctic seabed; a potentially vast source of untapped future resources.
> Just my opinion.


With several nations involved.........and the possibility of horizontal drilling........the boundaries could become pretty muddied up there.

The Arctic is not only extremely environmentally sensitive........but the often hostile weather conditions increase the difficulty of containing an oil spill such as happened in the Gulf of Mexico, and seems to happen on occasion.

If drilling is to be undertaken in the Arctic........perhaps the best solution is for all the different countries to form an Arctic group, drill the wells together and share the profits. That would enable better control over the type of drilling, and the regulations that would be used. A combined emergency response team with the best equipment could be on standby...........heaven forbid they should ever be needed.

I don't see that currently happening though.......as each country elbows in for their share.

Expect the US to make a show of force........some time in the future.


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## sags

Personally though, I think it is a big mistake that will some day be regretted..........to exploit the Arctic to support an old energy regime.

Canada has an environmental record to be ashamed of.

We have just earned the honor of top country for degrading pristine, intact forests.

A dubious record.........if ever there was one.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/c...pristine-intact-forests-leads-world-1.2757138


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## gibor365

I still don't understand why Kosovo can be separated from Serbia, Scotland from UK, QC from Canada, Venice from Italy....but in no way East Ukraine fron Ukraine


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## Nemo2

gibor said:


> I still don't understand why Kosovo can be separated from Serbia, Scotland from UK, QC from Canada, Venice from Italy....but in no way East Ukraine fron Ukraine


And don't forget Vladimir and Lyudmila Putina. :wink:


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## humble_pie

but do you think the ex-missus vlad will write a Valérie Trierweiler tell-all, though


----------



## andrewf

It's be different if Quebec 'voted' to separate while France was threatening to invade and was actively destabilizing the country, including giving yahoos the weapons needed to shoot down passenger aircraft flying overhead.


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## humble_pie

gibor said:


> Sure, Russia exploring the Arctic for centures, even before first European arrived to Canada
> _We should be cooperating and sharing data on our northern borders and all Harper's rhetoric will not help IMHO._
> 
> Agree that cooperation/sharing data will greatly benefit both countries... Harper should understand what is better for Canada and stop being Obama's puppy "who barking at elephant"



are you saying that ancient russians passed the north pole & explored onto the high Arctic islands that are part of continental north America? the islands that canada claims are hers? places we've never seen, like ellesmere, cornwallis, bathhurst, melville?

help! if it's true about the ancient russians then poor canada could undergo a crimea moment any day now. Think of that! thousands of silent russian soldiers hidden behind balaklavas but armed to the teeth, sneaking past the north pole to carry out manoeuvres on canadian ice & snow! would they be dressed in all-white instead of black? white balaklavas would be so fash, i bet NORAD has not got anything so chic ...


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## gibor365

"actively destabilizing the country" - but that what US did, with 5 billions spend ad Orange revolution


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> help! .


God will help ya, sweetie


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## humble_pie

gibor i am surprised at the way you keep on bashing the US of A.

if it weren't for the US of A, israel would not exist today.

the US of A has paid $460 million towards the Iron Dome, which saved israel during the recent gaza war while allowing her to slaughter more than 2,200 gazans. More gigantic contributions from US taxpayers to Iron Dome technology are slated to follow, once the terms of data transfer between israel & the US have been acceptably worked out.

alone & acting across many decades, the jewish community of new york state is probably more responsible for the miraculous blooming of the Negev than is any other community anywhere else on the planet.

gibor why would you bite the hand that feeds so well.


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> gibor i am surprised at the way you keep on bashing the US of A.
> 
> if it weren't for the US of A, israel would not exist today.
> 
> the US of A has paid $460 million towards the Iron Dome, which saved israel during the recent gaza war while allowing her to slaughter more than 2,200 gazans. More gigantic contributions from US taxpayers to Iron Dome technology are slated to follow, once the terms of data transfer between israel & the US have been acceptably worked out.
> 
> alone & acting across many decades, the jewish community of new york state is probably more responsible for the miraculous blooming of the Negev than is any other community anywhere else on the planet.
> 
> gibor why would you bite the hand that feeds so well.


Some history?! Why US didn't accept Jewish before Holocaust? (interesing that counties like Dominican Republic or Haiti did the opposite) "_The United States was another destination for German Jews seeking to leave the country, though the number allowed to immigrate was restricted due to the Immigration Act of 1924. Between 1933 and 1939, more than 300,000 Germans, some 90% of them Jews, applied for immigration visas to the United States. By 1940, only 90,000 German Jews had been granted visas and allowed to settle in the United States…_
or _The United States also refused to grant temporary refuge to Jews fleeing Europe. In the wake of the Great Depression, the United States had a highly restrictive immigration quota system, but even the limited quota spots were not filled.[16] The Department of State refused to fill 90% of the quota spots that might have been available for European Jews.[_ _The Dominican Republic was the only country willing to accept Jewish refugees—up to 100,000.[24]_

We exist because of Soviet Army (US wasn't in hurry to fight againg Nazis and started war on;y in 1944, when outcome of the war was clear), Israel exist because of Stalin - but it doesn't mean I should support Stalin or USSR government 

US sometimes helping Israel, not because they like us, but they have their own interests and Jewish US lobby is very powerful...

btw, some time ago I watched om youtube US neo-nazi meeting on Michigan .... US police was protecting them , it's exactky was was in mazi Germany.... it's impossible to imagine if something similar can happen in current Germany or any other country (this video got removed....so cannot give link)


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## humble_pie

lol there were never any pogroms in russia.

lol israel exists only because of stalin, a well-known antisemite who ordered the executions of many russian jewish intellectuals.

_too much_ each:

gibor it must kill you that russia is so friendly today with iran & her nuclear scientists who are building the arsenal of weapons.


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## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> lol there were never any pogroms in russia.
> 
> lol israel exists only because of stalin, a well-known antisemite who ordered the executions of many russian jewish intellectuals.
> 
> _too much_ each:
> 
> gibor it must kill you that russia is so friendly today with iran & her nuclear scientists who are building the arsenal of weapons.


HP, if you don't know (and this is shame for French journalist), that only because of Stalin and his allies, UN excepted resolution to create Israel in 1947


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## gibor365

Everyone knows The Jackson–Vanik amendment from 1974, if Brezhnev was amart, he would be open "iron gates" and let Jewish to immigrate... considering that 80% of Jewish immigrant went to US, I can imagine that 1 milllon would like to settle in US and that in couple of months US will make another amendment to stop accepting Russian Jews


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## humble_pie

gibor said:


> HP, if you don't know (and this is shame for French journalist), that only because of Stalin and his allies, UN excepted resolution to create Israel in 1947



i will take your memo under advisement but, for the time being, permit me to vigorously disagree with you.

by 1947, britain had been actively searching for a zionist home for at least 45 years. Throughout the 1930s & 1940s london sought to work out how to create a state of israel upon their protectorate of Palestine.

PS in 1947, what allies did stalin have left, exactly? according to churchill in 1945, the iron curtain was already ringing down even as he met with roosevelt & stalin at yalta to reconfigure post WW II europe.


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## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> i will take your memo under advisement but, for the time being, permit me to vigorously disagree with you.
> 
> by 1947, britain had been actively searching for a zionist home for at least 45 years. Throughout the 1930s & 1940s london sought to work out how to create a state of israel upon their protectorate of Palestine.
> 
> PS in 1947, what allies did stalin have left, exactly? according to churchill in 1945, the iron curtain was already ringing down even as he met with roosevelt & stalin at yalta to reconfigure post WW II europe.



Allies or not, but Stalin brought 5 votes supporting Israel : Byelorussian SSR, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Ukrainian SSR, Soviet Union.

About Great Britain .... give me a break... every journalist should know:
_No Refuge From the Holocaust
The gates of Palestine remained closed for the duration of the war, stranding hundreds of thousands of Jews in Europe, many of whom became victims of Hitler’s Final Solution. After the war, the British refused to allow the survivors of the Nazi nightmare to find sanctuary in Palestine. On June 6, 1946, President Truman urged the British government to relieve the suffering of the Jews confined to displaced persons camps in Europe by immediately accepting 100,000 Jewish immigrants. Britain's Foreign Minister, Ernest Bevin, replied sarcastically that the United States wanted displaced Jews to immigrate to Palestine “because they did not want too many of them in New York.”

Some Jews were able to reach Palestine, many by way of dilapidated ships that members of the Jewish resistance organizations smuggled in. Between August 1945 and the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948, 65 “illegal ” immigrant ships, carrying 69,878 people, arrived from European shores. In August 1946, however, the British began to intern those they caught in camps in Cyprus. Approximately 50,000 people were detained in the camps, 28,000 of whom were still imprisoned when Israel declared independence_
Maybe you are good with options trading, but not so much in history
P.S. and please.... do not pretend you have some sympathy to Israel .... everyone here read your posts...


----------



## humble_pie

gibor everyone has also read your posts & they know that you are a little bit of a clown. Not one to take seriously. Not even on dividends each:

that statement you made yesterday that ordinary europeans are hating the US more than russia right now? those loco links you gave? that you thought would back you up?




gibor said:


> ... talk to Europeans (not politicians)...they hate/afraid US much more than Russia
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=334_1365380932 (Germans thing that US more dangerous than Iran )
> http://garnetreport.com/5-things-europeans-hate-about-americans/#sthash.AbsMT60b.dpbs



- the liveleak recording? it was made in 2007. The nameless, disturbed-sounding broadcaster refers to recently-elected french president Sarkozy, who took office in may 2007. Nothing to do with attitudes of europeans towards the US today.

- that garnetreport on 5 things? frivolous, foolish & also 18 months out of date. Says europeans don't like how americans use imperial measure or call football "soccer." Says it'll be back soon with 5 things that europeans *love* about americans.

very far upthread here in this ukraine story, you once even provided the national propaganda network of Iran as a serious link to back up one of your preposterous stories! you were not even joking, you actually did soberly offer iranian state propaganda as pure truth.


----------



## sags

Gosh Gibor..........the Americans entered the war after the outcome was already decided?

Wasn't D-Day an American led assault, led by General Dwight D. Eisenhower, to push the Germans back from the occupied French coastline......all the way back to Berlin? The tide of the war turned in the Allies favor.......after the US entered the war.

There are many historical pictures available on the Reddit history sub-menus....showing Americans arriving first at German internment camps, utterly shocked at what they found there. There are pictures of the Allies forcing local townspeople, who had to know what was going on in the camps, to bury the dead.......out of disgust for their feigned ignorance of the situation, and anger at how the prisoners were so badly mistreated. The Americans forced captured German soldiers to watch films showing the brutality of the concentration camps.

http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/search?q=german+concentration+camps&sort=relevance&t=all

The refusal of many western countries to accept Jewish refugees escaping ahead of the German occupation, is a shameful history......but it is not unique to the US. It was the widely accepted policy of many governments at the time, and possibly due to people not believing the "stories" about concentration camps that circulated, until they were discovered by the US military. If you look at the faces of the captured German soldiers who were viewing the film...........it is obvious they couldn't believe it either.

http://i.imgur.com/BqJWpHh.jpg

The treatment of Americans of Japanese descent was also shameful...but illustrative of the level of paranoia in the world at the time.


----------



## gibor365

sags said:


> Gosh Gibor..........the Americans entered the war after the outcome was already decided?
> 
> .


Yeap, that what I think, D-Day was in summer 1944 , when Soviet Army was creaming Nazis in all direction.....Do you really think, if US won't start the war in June 1944, Germans would beat USSR?! In case US will continue to keep quiet, agree, war would continue another 1-1.5 years, but end on Nazis was obvious.... imho the only reason US started participation in War, in order not to let USSR to make "socialism" in whole Europe ... if not, there will be not only DDP (GDR) , but also France/Dutch/Denmark etc democratic republics


----------



## gibor365

sags, and tell me ...do you think nuclear bombing of Japan was really necessary? Or US has another reasons


----------



## gibor365

_The refusal of many western countries to accept Jewish refugees escaping ahead of the German occupation, is a shameful history......but it is not unique to the US. It was the widely accepted policy of many governments at the time, and possibly due to people not believing the "stories" about concentration camps that circulated, until they were discovered by the US military. If you look at the faces of the captured German soldiers who were viewing the film...........it is obvious they couldn't believe it either.
_ excuse !!! There were a lot of propaganda anti-Jewish movies before concentration camps as well as books written by Hitler and his buddies , radio programs by ministry of propoganda and so on ... they didn't know because they didn't want to know.....

as per pic you posted..... maybe they were scared that US got the pics and punishment will come? Criminals behave same way well they discover that police recorded their crime


----------



## humble_pie

sags this outburst reminds me of the time my little boy came home from school in france & told me - with obvious doubt in his voice, aged 8 years - that his best friend Olivier had bragged that france had won World War II :biggrin:

mercifully, vladimir putin was able to attend graciously at the juno beach ceremonies on 6 june 2014 without bragging his head off to the assembled heads of france, germany, holland, great britain, the US & canada.


----------



## sags

gibor said:


> sags, and tell me ...do you think nuclear bombing of Japan was really necessary? Or US has another reasons


Absolutely.

Japan started the war with a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

They were the enemy. They had to be defeated.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.........ended the war and saved many Allied lives.

The many Japanese who died in the bombings...........have their own leaders to blame for that.

*"I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." *

Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, upon learning of the success of the attack on Pearl Harbor


----------



## andrewf

Sags, I think that is a little black and white.


----------



## sags

andrewf said:


> Sags, I think that is a little black and white.


It is............but if we get into the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories......."the US intercepted the Japanese messages and "knew" they were attacking".......or the "should the Japanese have been warned they were going to be bombed with an atomic bomb.......or were they warned and ignored it theories?...... we will get further off topic..........than I already am.

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/04/26/a-day-too-late/


----------



## gibor365

The point is that too many powerful americans supported Nazis....why would they need Jews?!
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm


----------



## m3s

humble_pie said:


> mercifully, vladimir putin was able to attend graciously at the juno beach ceremonies on 6 june 2014 without bragging his head off to the assembled heads of france, germany, holland, great britain, the US & canada.


I was there and was quite humbled. The RCAF pilot who spotted Rommel is still telling the story himself. The locals pass on heroic stories of the Canadians. Studying the beaches though I have to think the French resistance deserve more credit than they get. It was not possible without their efforts too. It's also well depicted in the new Canadian D Day museum that our politicians didn't exactly speak out for Jews or against Nazis as soon as we'd like to remember.

It really isn't all black and white as andrew pointed out. Not to discount the role of the American military, but the French don't exactly remember them all as heroes after how they and their women were treated during their liberation, which was covered up rather than addressed. We also never really hear the importance of American companies to the Nazi effort up until the late entry and what continued quietly after that. It seems that only 1 side is taught in all countries.


----------



## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> sags this outburst reminds me of the time my little boy came home from school in france & told me - with obvious doubt in his voice, aged 8 years - that his best friend Olivier had bragged that france had won World War II :biggrin:
> 
> .


yeah, sweetie, it would be very funny to say it about France, who surrendered 40 days after war started.... and half France became under German occupation and other half under pro-Nazi Vishy regime


----------



## gibor365

m3s said:


> I was there and was quite humbled. The RCAF pilot who spotted Rommel is still telling the story himself. The locals pass on heroic stories of the Canadians. Studying the beaches though I have to think the French resistance deserve more credit than they get. It was not possible without their efforts too. It's also well depicted in the new Canadian D Day museum that our politicians didn't exactly speak out for Jews or against Nazis as soon as we'd like to remember.
> 
> It really isn't all black and white as andrew pointed out. Not to discount the role of the American military, but the French don't exactly remember them all as heroes after how they and their women were treated during their liberation, which was covered up rather than addressed. We also never really hear the importance of American companies to the Nazi effort up until the late entry and what continued quietly after that. It seems that only 1 side is taught in all countries.


Obviously role of all those contries were important, but without doubt, role of USSR in defeating Nazi Germany was dominant. Do you really think that without D-day USSR wouldn't destroy Germany?!


----------



## uptoolate

The Soviet Union made far greater sacrifices than any of the other Allies but without the Lend-Lease programme (which supplied the Soviets with hundreds of thousands of US made trucks, 20% of all aircraft produced by the Soviets during the war, over 2,000 locomotives during a period when the Soviets managed to produce less than 100, over 11,000 rail cars, and millions of tons of supplies), British and then American strategic bombing which devastated German industry, and other fronts in North Africa, Italy, the Balkans, the North Atlantic and finally in northern Europe it is certainly possible that the Soviet Union would not have prevailed against Germany. Without American involvement and effort it is likely that Germany would have been the first country to develop the atomic bomb. With their expertise in rocketry they would have been very hard to defeat. Ironically, the persecution of the Jews was probably the largest obstacle to a German atomic bomb. If Hitler had been a little bit more patient and tolerant, things quite possibly would have been very different. That said, we must be thankful for the sacrifices of all, and the Soviets certainly bore the largest brunt of losses in the war. I have been in awe when I have visited war museums in the former Soviet Union. The circumstances of the Cold War led to the role of the Soviet Union in winning the war and its incredible sacrifices being greatly downplayed.


----------



## humble_pie

uptoolate said:


> The Soviet Union made far greater sacrifices than any of the other Allies but without the Lend-Lease programme (which supplied the Soviets with hundreds of thousands of US made trucks, 20% of all aircraft produced by the Soviets during the war, over 2,000 locomotives during a period when the Soviets managed to produce less than 100, over 11,000 rail cars, and millions of tons of supplies), British and then American strategic bombing which devastated German industry, and other fronts in North Africa, Italy, the Balkans, the North Atlantic and finally in northern Europe it is certainly possible that the Soviet Union would not have prevailed against Germany.
> 
> Without American involvement and effort it is likely that Germany would have been the first country to develop the atomic bomb. With their expertise in rocketry they would have been very hard to defeat. Ironically, the persecution of the Jews was probably the largest obstacle to a German atomic bomb. If Hitler had been a little bit more patient and tolerant, things quite possibly would have been very different. That said, we must be thankful for the sacrifices of all, and the Soviets certainly bore the largest brunt of losses in the war. I have been in awe when I have visited war museums in the former Soviet Union. The circumstances of the Cold War led to the role of the Soviet Union in winning the war and its incredible sacrifices being greatly downplayed.






m3s said:


> I was there and was quite humbled. The RCAF pilot who spotted Rommel is still telling the story himself. The locals pass on heroic stories of the Canadians. Studying the beaches though I have to think the French resistance deserve more credit than they get. It was not possible without their efforts too. It's also well depicted in the new Canadian D Day museum that our politicians didn't exactly speak out for Jews or against Nazis as soon as we'd like to remember.
> 
> It really isn't all black and white as andrew pointed out. Not to discount the role of the American military, but the French don't exactly remember them all as heroes after how they and their women were treated during their liberation, which was covered up rather than addressed. We also never really hear the importance of American companies to the Nazi effort up until the late entry and what continued quietly after that. It seems that only 1 side is taught in all countries.




thanks to both for these thumbnail summaries touching on many sides of a century-breaking tragedy. No simplistic interpretation will ever be possible. I especially appreciate the graveness of tone, the deep respect & the propriety with which uptoolate & m3s treat these most sombre of stories.


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## gibor365

_Without American involvement and effort it is likely that Germany would have been the first country to develop the atomic bomb. With their expertise in rocketry they would have been very hard to defeat. Ironically, the persecution of the Jews was probably the largest obstacle to a German atomic bomb._ 
No doubt that len-lease helped USSR to beat Germany, but I was talking specifically about D-Day in June 1944 .... when, again, in my opinion, outcome of war was clear.

I'd say that Hitler racial theory in general was a very big obstacle ... When war started , it was just 20 years after October revolution (or putsch - whatever you call it), many USSR people hated communists in general and Stalin is particular


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## SixesAndSevens

Soviet union had a very important role to play in the defeat of Germany.
it is in fact arguable whether Nazi Germany could have been defeated had they not lost the battle in the USSR.
we cannot say without a doubt that had Hitler not invaded USSR and opened up a new front, the allied invaions may not have been successful.
even with USA help the allied forces may not have won. or the war would have gone on for much longer.

the defeat of nazis in USSR was the turning point of the war not the entry of the USA into the war.
the americans did not want to get involved in Europe. they always kept saying Adolf Hitler is Europe's problem.
Europe created Hitler and Mussolini and it is their problem.
even FDR was saying this.
Had Japan not bombed pearl harbor, the US would not have entered the war.
story goes that King George VI had literally begged FDR to side with england & france and even though FDR agreed in principle, the USA did not actually do anything.
war broke out in Europe soon after the king's visit and the americans did not join the war.
war raged on as the Nazis captured country after country and yet the USA did nothing.
it took the attack on pearl harbor almost 2 and half years later for the US to join the war.

the Nazi invasion of USSR, the battle of Stalingrad, was the turning point of the war.
the Nazis underestimated USSR.
the soviet army was not as advanced at that time.
they had numbers but they did not have the technology or the infrastructure or the war planning strategy.

victors always rewrite history in their favor.
no one knows what would have happened had Hitler not invaded USSR or worse actually won the battle of Moscow and ran through.
i think it is ironical that the western countries should thank a communist country for their victory and survival.


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## Nemo2

SixesAndSevens said:


> i think it is ironical that the western countries should thank a communist country for their victory and survival.


The Soviets weren't fighting Hitler on _our_ behalf....they weren't on 'our' side...they just happened to be fighting the same enemy at the same time.


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## SixesAndSevens

Nemo2 said:


> The Soviets weren't fighting Hitler on _our_ behalf....they weren't on 'our' side...they just happened to be fighting the same enemy at the same time.


true I don't deny that at all.
but it is also true that the USSR had an important role maybe the pivotal role in defeating nazism for better or worse.
the soviet soldiers that fought on the borders of Leningrad and Stalingrad were heroes, no less heroic than the English French Canadian and American soldiers that fought on d-day.
they deserve the equal amount of honour and recognition which i would argue they haven't been given.
we should accept that the US of A does not own a copyright on morality.
in the first world war they could not even make up their mind whether to join on the side of Germany or English.
the country was divided so they ended up staying neutral.
until Germany sank their boat they could not make up their mind.
_the US waited more than 2 years to join the first world war_
they waited similarly 2 years to join the 2nd world war.


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## Nemo2

SixesAndSevens said:


> but it is also true that the USSR had an important role maybe the pivotal role in defeating nazism for better or worse.
> the soviet soldiers that fought on the borders of Leningrad and Stalingrad were heroes, no less heroic than the English French Canadian and American soldiers that fought on d-day.


Most definitely - the Soviets sustained devastating casualties......and also inflicted devastating casualties on the Nazis.


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## gibor365

SixesAndSevens, I cannot say better 

_they waited similarly 2 years to join the 2nd world war. _ WWII started in 1939, before Hitler attacked USSR in 1941, practically all Europe surrendered, In winter 1941 Hitler was dozen km from Moscow, Leningrad was under "blokada" - US did nothing (except Lend-lease) ...So why war stated in 1939 and D-day in 1944?!


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## Homerhomer

gibor said:


> SixesAndSevens, I cannot say better
> 
> _they waited similarly 2 years to join the 2nd world war.?!_


_

no, they waited 17 days to join the war when they invaded Poland on September 17, but it took Nazis 2 two years to bleep soviets over and attack them, hence giving them no choice but to defend against the former allies (german-soviet non aggression pact from August 23, 1939).._


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## gibor365

Homerhomer said:


> no, they waited 17 days to join the war when they invaded Poland on September 17, ..


17 days, how did you calculate?! US declared war against Germany December 11, 1941 and actually participate in war in June 1944


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## Homerhomer

gibor said:


> 17 days, how did you calculate?! US declared war against Germany December 11, 1941 and actually participate in war in June 1944


September 1, 1939 >>>>> September 17, 1939, that's 17 days, Soviets attacked Poland 17 days after Nazis did, then Soviets stayed quiet until their allied hitler attacked them.


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## uptoolate

He means that it took the Soviets 17 days to join the war, on the side of the Germans in September of 1939, when they invaded Poland from the east. The Soviet Union then did not engage the Germans (except indirectly when the Soviet Union invaded Finland) until the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa on 22 June 1941. Again, for a matter of planning, Moscow might have been lost in the fall of 1941 but the invasion started later than originally planned. The Soviets were hampered by lack of equipment (a void filled largely by the US via Lend-Lease) and the fact that the 'Great Purge' had taken place in the mid-30s. The NKVD on Stalin's orders expelled or executed 90% of the officer corps from the Division commander level up. This was just a small component of the wider purge that took place through the 30's. History is complicated. There are many ways to look at things and much depends on one's vantage point.


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## bgc_fan

uptoolate said:


> He means that it took the Soviets 17 days to join the war, on the side of the Germans in September of 1939, when they invaded Poland from the east. The Soviet Union then did not engage the Germans (except indirectly when the Soviet Union invaded Finland) until the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa on 22 June 1941.
> There are many ways to look at things and much depends on one's vantage point.


In some ways, you could say that the failed invasion of Finland by the Russians was a key turning point. Germany saw how incompetent the Russian army was and thought they were easy pickings.


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## humble_pie

uptoolate said:


> He means that it took the Soviets 17 days to join the war, on the side of the Germans in September of 1939, when they invaded Poland from the east. The Soviet Union then did not engage the Germans (except indirectly when the Soviet Union invaded Finland) until the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa on 22 June 1941. Again, for a matter of planning, Moscow might have been lost in the fall of 1941 but the invasion started later than originally planned. The Soviets were hampered by lack of equipment (a void filled largely by the US via Lend-Lease) and the fact that the 'Great Purge' had taken place in the mid-30s. The NKVD on Stalin's orders expelled or executed 90% of the officer corps from the Division commander level up. This was just a small component of the wider purge that took place through the 30's. History is complicated. There are many ways to look at things and much depends on one's vantage point.



is that true? i had no idea. The soviets attacked poland as allies of germany in 1939, then switched sides 2 years later & joined the West?

add the rest of uptoolate's message re officer executions & purges & vladimir putin starts looking like a boy scout.


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## uptoolate

Yes that's true enough, so far Putin is a dream compared to Stalin but fortunately Stalin did not possess nuclear weapons, ICBMs and nuclear submarines. It was a dark time for the world. Germans persecuting minorities, the Russian Great Purge, the Japanese massacring Chinese and so on. The Germans actually rallied the Ukrainians against the Russians by uncovering the mass graves of those killed by the NKVD during the late 30's. I visited one such area in Vinnytsia in the western Ukraine where 10,000 bodies were buried. Perhaps not by coincidence, Vinnytsia is where one of Hitler's bunkers on the eastern front was located. Codenamed 'Werwolf'.


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## uptoolate

The possible alternate histories of WW2 are myriad and fascinating. What if WW1 had been won unconditionally or if it had been followed by a Marshall plan instead of crippling Germany, if Chamberlain hadn't delivered 'Peace in our time', if Jewish scientists hadn't fled fascist countries in Europe, if Stalin hadn't agreed to a non-agression pact and the partitioning of Poland with Hitler, if Szilard hadn't written to FDR with Einstein's support, if Hitler had delayed his attacks for a year or two, if Great Britain and France had come to Poland's aide, if the United States had stood up or alternately if it had actually remained neutral (no Lend-Lease, no 'awakening of the slumbering giant', no strategic daylight bombing, no southern or western invasion), if, if, if,... Thank the powers that be for all the sacrifices made by every day people after the mistakes had been made by the politicians/leaders. Lest we forget...


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## gibor365

uptoolate said:


> He means that it took the Soviets 17 days to join the war, on the side of the Germans in September of 1939, when they invaded Poland from the east. The NKVD on Stalin's orders expelled or executed 90% of the officer corps from the Division commander level up.


Not on the side of Germany, but Germany and Russia agreed to split Poland as well as Baltic countries for "spheres of influence" zones (actually of those countries were part of Russian Imperia) and they weren't friend - it was non-aggression pact (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact) singed in August 1939... If USSR wasn't do it (17 days after Germany) , Germany would just occupy those countries... and USSR needed some buffer zone between them and Germany.

_The NKVD on Stalin's orders expelled or executed 90% of the officer corps from the Division commander level up._
That's right.... Stalin's and some his comrades paranoya together with good German spy net caused it.


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## uptoolate

gibor said:


> Not on the side of Germany, but Germany and Russia agreed to split Poland as well as Baltic countries for "spheres of influence" zones (actually of those countries were part of Russian Imperia) and they weren't friend - it was non-aggression pact (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact) singed in August 1939... If USSR wasn't do it (17 days after Germany) , Germany would just occupy those countries... and USSR needed some buffer zone between them and Germany.


This is one way of looking at it. Another way would be that if the Non-aggression pact had not been signed, Germany's eastern flank would not have been secured thereby allowing her to devote her full resources to take over western continental Europe which subsequently allowed her to turn her full resources back towards the Soviet Union. If the non-aggression pact had not been signed the invasion of Poland may not have happened or at least not have happened before the conquest of western Europe. Who can say when and what the faithful decision was that allowed Hitler to believe that he could actually 'win' a war against such overwhelming odds.


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## gibor365

uptoolate, yeap, it's difficult to say for sure, but look from other side.... USSR was scary of Germany in 1939 and completely not ready for the war , Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact delayed war by 2 years, at least USSR had some time to prepare and as I mentioned earlier "buffer" zone... If Germany would start war against USSR in 1939, it will be devastation for Russia... Western countries gave to Hitler "swallow" Chezh and Poland in anticipation that Hitler will start war against USSR.... and in this case, no one of Western world 100% would do anything to help USSR... 
Hitler on his hand, probably was also scared to start the war against USSR (he also remembered WWI), so Hitler imo just decided first to "practice" on western european countries.... after he saw such huge success on the West and struggle of USSR vs Finland, he decided to break the Pact and started Barbarossa... 
Luckily for USSR he should've held some forces against England (who at least show some resistant), was fighting Serbs partisans etc. ... btw, contribution of Serbia in fighting against Germany is underestimated by West, 1,700,000 Yugoslavians (mostly Serbians, as Crovatia's Ustashi supported Hitler and the committed genocide against local Serbs, Jews and Gypsies) were killed....


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## uptoolate

Again, many permutation and combinations but when two countries sign a secret accord that plans a co-ordinated invasion and division of a third sovereign state and agrees on the transfer 3 other sovereign countries to one of the invading countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to the Soviet Union) then it would be hard for any objective observer to not say that they were on the same side. These were the terms of the treaty signed by Molotov and Ribbentrop for Stalin and Hitler. As well, future Luftwaffe pilots had been training in the Soviet Union for years even before Hitler came to power. I can't say what the motivations of the Soviet Union were but certainly I would be sticking with the 'buffer zone' and 'these were historically our lands' excuse and not the 'we wanted more land' explanation. The latter seems so selfish and wouldn't fly when trying to explain things to the UK and the USA when you desperately needed their help. At Yalta, Stalin said that without Lend-Lease the war against Hitler could not have been won. Just as it could not have been won without the millions and millions of Soviet casualties. American supplies were especially critical in the period in which the German advance was so rapid as to force the Soviets to abandon much of their equipment (much of it obsolete) and allowed them the time to relocate industry to the foothills of the Urals far behind the lines and retool and eventually produce some of the most effective weapons of the war. The Soviets returned to the 'buffer zone' rationale after the war when they lowered the Iron Curtain behind which 9 previously independent countries became either puppet states or SSR's.


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## sags

In the first 2 days of the German invasion into the Soviet Union, they had decimated the entire Soviet air force.

The aircraft were sitting unprotected on airport runways, close to the Soviet border. The first day, the Germans destroyed more than 1,000 Soviet aircraft. The second day the destroyed most of the rest of them.

The Soviet general in charge was executed for treason.

With no fighters to defend the Soviet cities, the Germans bombed them mercilessly. 

The Soviets fought valiantly and were heroes........but were in difficult straits with their supply lines and weapons.

Without air support, I doubt the Soviets could have defeated the Germans on their own.

The Germans knew the Allies were planning an assault on the Atlantic coast........but didn't know when or where.

The Germans had to divert resources to fortifying and defending the coast, which weakened their effort on the Soviet front.

Hitler made the same mistake as the Romans had centuries before. Expanding an empire too big to defend......spreading resources too thin and supply lines too difficult to maintain.

Invading the Soviet Union when he did, although precipitated by the Soviet invasion of Poland, was a crucial tactical error for Germany.


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## gibor365

uptoolate said:


> Again, many permutation and combinations but when two countries sign a secret accord that plans a co-ordinated invasion and division of a third sovereign state and agrees on the transfer 3 other sovereign countries to one of the invading countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to the Soviet Union) then it would be hard for any objective observer to not say that they were on the same side.


It depends on observer 
And waht about Munich Agreement of 1939 regarding Czechoslovakia?! Can you tell that France and England were on the same side?!


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## uptoolate

Definitely France and the UK were on the same side there. The side of appeasement, the side of the losers. The parallel of the current situation in Ukraine is actually pretty striking. We'll see what lessons we take from history.


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## gibor365

The parallel only that Ukranian neo-nazis again raising their heads


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## uptoolate

lol


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## humble_pie

late don't u think that that old saw about learning-the-lessons-of-history-because-he-who-does-not-is-doomed-to-repeat-them is over-used though.

after all, what problem in life does not have a historical precedent? way i see it, lessons-of-history is a cheap n easy threat. A mild threat with a prim, disapproving sniff, but a threat nonetheless.

how is this old saw relevant to ukraine today? i don't see any reasonable comparison of putin to hitler or crimea to czechoslovakia.

hitler didn't have an armed multinational war alliance growing ever bigger while sitting smack on germany's borders. He didn't have his only strategic year-round naval seaport in czechoslovakia. He wasn't selling german gas to a gas pipeline neighbouring country that kept refusing to pay.

in a complex & difficult situation - which ukraine is - i usually try to look for the players in the power centre who are the most flexible. These are the players who are the most likely to initiate change for the better, i think to myself.

obviously the russian leader is not going to be the flexible initiator. His sole response to sanctions has been to rattle his nuclear weapons.

not much hope for the US of A or any of the western european states either, with the exception of Angela Merkel.

but there are 2 new players who are both flexible. One is Jens Stoltenberg, incoming secretary general of NATO. In fact, he's in office right now, or will be within a couple of weeks. Stoltenberg is a former prime minister of norway, where he was very popular, & he is said to be on close terms with vladimir putin, something outgoing secretary-general Anders foch Rasmussen was not.

the other player who evidences flexibilitiy is, surprisingly, Peter Poroschenko of the ukraine. It's still early days but the indications are that he keeps looking for a plan of arrangement with russia.


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## gibor365

Western madness continue
_The United States is joining the European Union in issuing increased sanctions against Russia today._
http://www.thewire.com/business/2014/09/us-officially-increases-sanctions-against-russia/380115/

as Russian proverb saying "Don't cut the bough you are standing on"


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## dogcom

I wonder if it is more like the US is joining in after bullying the EU into producing more sanctions. Do you think the European people like what is going on when you have to put up with the real consequences of Russia sanctioning their goods and having their energy potentially cut off in the winter. The US is not suffering at all but Europe is taking it on the chin.


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## lonewolf

You never know if government sachs is playing games to move markets one way or the other ?


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## gibor365

dogcom said:


> I wonder if it is more like the US is joining in after bullying the EU into producing more sanctions. Do you think the European people like what is going on when you have to put up with the real consequences of Russia sanctioning their goods and having their energy potentially cut off in the winter. The US is not suffering at all but Europe is taking it on the chin.


I'm pretty sure! This is play of US propaganda, kinda "we are not forcing our little friends to do it, they are doing on their own and US only supporting sanctions several days after".... In US regular people will be suffering a bit too, US wasting tens millions $$$ on those "patriot games", so they will cut social services, increase taxes, deficit ....


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## gibor365

lonewolf said:


> You never know if government sachs is playing games to move markets one way or the other ?


when list of sanctions lists specific companies, obviously that many gov. officials who knows up front what in the list , can make millions on shorting those stocks and will make millions again when sanctions will be lifted.... this is why "markets are casino"


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## m3s

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=445589&playlistId=1.2015665&binId=1.810401&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1

Sounds like she knows what she's talking about :hopelessness:


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## gibor365

Oh...yeah... first of all it was 100 km to Canadaian air space, and also listen last 15 sec of this video (about Canadian and US warship)...
The comment that this happened couple of hours after Poroshenko appearance in Canada, just stupidity.... Russia could've done it in the same minute....

And finally, this is practically Russian Air space, what the Hell Canadian forces are doing thousands of miles away from Canada on Russian border ?!


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## humble_pie

why hopeless, m3s?

i would have thought the russian flights were to be expected. Mr. Poroschenko came to canada with a pretty big shopping list. Now he even wants to be given satellite & radar systems so ukraine can watch russia on its own. NATO & US maybe don't have good enough intelligence for kiev?

it was the first i ever heard that F18s are based at Inuvik, though. That might be new. Seems like a good idea.


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## m3s

gibor said:


> And finally, this is practically Russian Air space, what the Hell Canadian forces are doing thousands of miles away from Canada on Russian border ?!


She did say to 60 km, and international water ends at 12 nautical miles. By this I would figure they were 2 or 3 minutes from breaching Canadian airspace. It's a cruise missile platform, so they don't really need to get closer than that.



humble_pie said:


> it was the first i ever heard that F18s are based at Inuvik, though. That might be new. Seems like a good idea.


The reporter said it was an "undisclosed location" Hopefully the Russians don't read CMF. Ukraine has lots of old Russian hardware, why not ask for western stuff as well? Great way to stimulate the economy.


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## humble_pie

it wasn't the only report, the globe said they were scrambled from inuvik. Does seem like a good idea. I'm sure the russian embassy reads the globe, though.

wondering if i ever posted about inuvik. The permafrost was still mostly frozen when i was there, now that it's melting i hope the F18s are light enough they won't sink into the mud.

there were a lot of guns in that town. Hotel had a sign at the desk. No Guns, it said. US Dollars Exchanged at Par, it said. The gummint employees had to send their teens & pre-teens far away to boarding school in the south, the town was that rough.

that poroschenko is so flexible, some might even call him two-faced. When he comes to canada he assures the canadian ukrainian community that not one millimetre of ukraine will ever be lost to aggressor russia.

but when he interfaces with vladimir putin he's a pussycat. Next thing you know there are ceasefires all over the map. I bet they've never even talked about crimea.


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## m3s

> Two Russian *fighters* entered a US "air defense identification zone" two days ago and were intercepted by American F-22 jets near Alaska, military officers said Friday.


According to Yahoo

I guess there are Russian fighters poking around after all. I've been too busy with the ME


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## gibor365

humble_pie said:


> that poroschenko is so flexible, some might even call him two-faced. When he comes to canada he assures the canadian ukrainian community that not one millimetre of ukraine will ever be lost to aggressor russia.
> 
> but when he interfaces with vladimir putin he's a pussycat. Next thing you know there are ceasefires all over the map. I bet they've never even talked about crimea.


Recently, US Called Kiev Ruler, Poroschenko, ‘Corrupt Oligarch’—Wikileaks 

http://emsnews.wordpress.com/2014/0...ruler-poroschenko-corrupt-oligarch-wikileaks/


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## gibor365

m3s said:


> According to Yahoo
> 
> I guess there are Russian fighters poking around after all. I've been too busy with the ME


according to Yahoo "They did not enter sovereign airspace of the United States or Canada."


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## humble_pie

gibor said:


> Recently, US Called Kiev Ruler, Poroschenko, ‘Corrupt Oligarch’—Wikileaks
> 
> http://emsnews.wordpress.com/2014/0...ruler-poroschenko-corrupt-oligarch-wikileaks/



gibor this isn't wikileak, this is another one of your kooky over-the-top fringe-of-fringe nutbar links.

it's called Culture of Life. It's an extreme blogspot created & run by a woman named elaine meinel supkis, one of the seven children of the late aden meinel, a distinguished US astronomer.

look carefully at your nutbar source, gibor. It does not say the US *recently* or at any time called Poroschenko a corrupt oligarch. The most nutbar can come up with is a former US ambassador to ukraine who in a dispatch of february 2006 - that's more than 7 years ago - was said to have referred to Poroschenko as an oligarch who had disgraced himself. 

only a few months later, in june 2006, the next US ambassador to ukraine - a State Department diplomat who is still serving as current ambassador to the ukraine - wrote mildly that Poroschenko was "an unpopular politician."

where are your "recent" references?

in addition, your source, elaine the nutbar, appears to have a few problems, including a belief that mice with DNA re-engineered into their brains are going to take over the world.

gibor here is my criticism of you: you have so many kooky references & so many nutbar internet trash links - upthread you have actually given the state TV network of Iran as a legitimate news source! - that i for one can no longer take seriously any thing you might ever say.

you know that children's fairy tale about the little boy who kept on crying out Wolf! Wolf! in the end the villagers learned to doubt him, so when a real bad wolf actually did come visiting one day, nobody paid any attention each:


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## humble_pie

actually Yahoo is a news aggregator that is just re-publishing this story.

the actual news story about the 2 russian MIG fighters - plus their 2 refuelling planes plus 2 bomber aircraft, for a total of 6 russian war planes flying just outside US air space - is identified as filed by the washington bureau of agence france-presse.

story says that russia is conducting an air force exercise on kamchatka peninsula that will involve 120 military planes & will continue until 25 september/14. Sounds like we could see more.


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## gibor365

_In 2006, John Herbst, US Ambassador to Ukraine, described Poroshenko as a "disgraced oligarch." Later that same year Sheila Gwaltney, Deputy Chief of Mission at the US Embassy in Ukraine, said that "Poroshenko was tainted by credible corruption allegations."_

Yes, it was in 2006, but after this US was preparing "Orange revolution" in Ukraine,... and seriously , do you really think gthat after 7 years Poroshenko chenged his life and became hosnest guy?!


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## humble_pie

yes i posted what the ambassador said in 2006.

how can an obscure remark by a faceless former ambassador 7 years ago be called "recent" by yourself?

when did the US ever call Poroschenko a "corrupt" oligarch?

why say the direct quote is from wikileaks when it isn't?

your immediate source was not wikileaks but rather an incoherent american woman with bizarre ideation, who is embroiled in a family spat along with many other spats. No doubt if her illustrious scientist parents were alive today they'd be mortified beyond belief at her goings-on.

once again, gibor, i believe that too many of your links are to crackpot extremist websites like this one. Too many of your statements are inaccurate, like this one. These are the posturings that, in the end, turn your arguments into a circus & rob them of legitimacy.

it's a pity because there is a powerful need for understanding better how russia thinks & feels, in the personae of vladimir putin, sergey lavrov & Co.

there is a distinct role in this thread for someone who could discuss, without insults & without demonizing either the russians or the west, where russia is going with the present expansionist campaign. How much expansionism is actually present? how much is russian response to what russia sees as NATO & US aggression?

thomps4416 was good at this, but alas he seems to have signed off.


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## gibor365

_how can an obscure remark by a faceless former ambassador 7 years ago be called "recent" by yourself?_ There is no nubmer definition for "recent"... You can call this remark "obscure" and ambassador "faceless", but this is only your personal opinion.
_For example, in a cable dated February 16, 2006, US Ambassador to Ukraine John Herbst describes Poroshenko as a “disgraced oligarch.”

''[Former Ukrainian Foreign Minister] Konstyantyn Hryshchenko claimed that Poroshenko appeared to be working hard to scuttle a possible deal between Yushchenko and Yanukovich, because such a coalition would likely freeze out the disgraced oligarch. End summary,'' he said.

In another cable dated May 26, 2006, deputy chief of the US mission in Kiev Sheila Gwaltney addressed the Department of State describing 'Poroshenko as “tainted by credible corruption allegations.”_
http://rt.com/news/162396-wikileaks-cables-us-poroshenko/


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## thompsg4416

I'm still here . I am still reading as well but I find it hard to find the energy to post..lol

Read this one today..

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/canadian-equipment-could-fall-into-wrong-hands-in-

Why are we even involved? Regardless of what side your on, you can't deny the Ukraine is a corrupt and backward place. It will be years before we see noticeable change. I believe you need to pick your battles this is not one I'd pick. Domestic politics is the driver IMHO.

Europe is being driven to the brink on this one. I hope they know what hey are doing...I still own a couple euro banks!


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## gibor365

good article tomps  this is exactly what I think... and I don't goverment in Canada who wastes hundreds of millions $$$
Interesting what is Trudeau position on this topic


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## thompsg4416

I would expect Trudeau to be some where along the same lines. Every western country is more or less in line.... However unlike Harper who has supersized his rhetoric while providing little actual substance, I would expect most other leaders to be a bit more low key.


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## m3s

Canada made a bold move by discontinuing our contribution to the NATO AWACS program in 2011. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of saving money and the Cold War was long forgotten. However, Canada had to quickly jump into this mess if we wanted to keep any voice and credibility within NATO at all. In hindsight, we probably would have been better off maintaining our high status in the NATO AWACS instead. More headlines this way though


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## gibor365

what the hell we need "NATO AWACS program"?! We need less taxes and more benefits! Let stupid US to deal with this BS


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## humble_pie

thompsg4416 said:


> I'm still here . I am still reading as well but I find it hard to find the energy to post..lol
> 
> Read this one today..
> 
> http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/canadian-equipment-could-fall-into-wrong-hands-in-
> 
> Why are we even involved? Regardless of what side your on, you can't deny the Ukraine is a corrupt and backward place. It will be years before we see noticeable change. I believe you need to pick your battles this is not one I'd pick. Domestic politics is the driver IMHO.
> 
> Europe is being driven to the brink on this one. I hope they know what hey are doing...I still own a couple euro banks!




thomps i don't think one can be lackadaisical because russia could advance anywhere at any time & does seem to be straining at her borders.

it's not just the ukraine. It's arctic canada as well.

there are valuable resources for russia to eye in both eastern europe & the arctic. In canada's north, probably not unlockable until the next century, although global warming is hastening the day.


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## m3s

gibor said:


> what the hell we need "NATO AWACS program"


Because foreign policy.

The American empire is melting faster than the polar ice caps, and Putin seems to know exactly what he's doing.


----------



## humble_pie

gibor said:


> _how can an obscure remark by a faceless former ambassador 7 years ago be called "recent" by yourself?_ There is no nubmer definition for "recent"... You can call this remark "obscure" and ambassador "faceless", but this is only your personal opinion.
> _For example, in a cable dated February 16, 2006, US Ambassador to Ukraine John Herbst describes Poroshenko as a “disgraced oligarch.”
> 
> ''[Former Ukrainian Foreign Minister] Konstyantyn Hryshchenko claimed that Poroshenko appeared to be working hard to scuttle a possible deal between Yushchenko and Yanukovich, because such a coalition would likely freeze out the disgraced oligarch. End summary,'' he said.
> 
> In another cable dated May 26, 2006, deputy chief of the US mission in Kiev Sheila Gwaltney addressed the Department of State describing 'Poroshenko as “tainted by credible corruption allegations.”_
> http://rt.com/news/162396-wikileaks-cables-us-poroshenko/




gibor this is a good example of the kind of gibberish you seem to want to post, for some reason.

plus here you are again with the fringe references. RT dot com is a propaganda machine of the kremlin. Actually, it's a lot better than your nutbar friend elaine with the Culture & Life psycho trash, though. I like to read RT dot com because the official russians work hard to present a coherent point of view.

but maybe you can't tell the difference between a website from a mental case & a slick piece of propaganda?

i am left wondering how come, when you wrote your citizenship papers a decade ago, you never learned that the bedrock of canadian foreign policy is the canada/US bilateral relationship? that there's also a traditional loyalty to Whitehall in matters of defence? 

there's not much you can do about NATO & NORAD except try to get the NDP elected.


----------



## gibor365

_when you wrote your citizenship papers a decade ago, you never learned that the bedrock of canadian foreign policy is the canada/US bilateral relationship?_ Stop writing same BS all the time.... Looks like you don't have even Canadian citizenship  ..or maybe you keep failing citizenship test?!. the only thing I remember from citizenship test is swearing to UK queen 
If NDP foreign policy is stop wating money on NATO and on ukranian mafia and neo nazis and start supporting poor Canadian - I'd agree with them...

In rt.com not more propoganda machine than in every western website

and btw I've never talked about NORAD ....
Good think that not all canadians leaders were US puppies, otherwise we'd have Cuba embargo ... I just cannot imagine that Canada criticised US invasion of Grenada!


----------



## thompsg4416

gibor said:


> _when you wrote your citizenship papers a decade ago, you never learned that the bedrock of canadian foreign policy is the canada/US bilateral relationship?_ Stop writing same BS all the time.... Looks like you don't have even Canadian citizenship  ..or maybe you keep failing citizenship test?!. the only thing I remember from citizenship test is swearing to UK queen
> If NDP foreign policy is stop wating money on NATO and on ukranian mafia and neo nazis and start supporting poor Canadian - I'd agree with them...
> 
> In rt.com not more propoganda machine than in every western website
> 
> and btw I've never talked about NORAD ....
> Good think that not all canadians leaders were US puppies, otherwise we'd have Cuba embargo ... I just cannot imagine that Canada criticised US invasion of Grenada!


I'm not sure NATO is a waste of money, it serves both us and our close allies a purpose. I disagreed with the latest round of NATO expansion as well as how it is used as a tool of US foreign policy at times but that is another topic for debate. In principal it serves a good purpose. 

Additionally we do not blindly follow us policy "all the time". Iraq is a good and important example. I also feel the situation in Ukraine Is less about following the US and more about domestic politics. That said a friend/ally is a friend and ally and even if you don't do everything they do or agree with everything they do you need to at least support them or eventually you'll find yourself on the outside looking in.


----------



## humble_pie

m3s said:


> ... Putin seems to know exactly what he's doing.



it's astonishing how putin has campaigned a new kind of post-modern anti-warfare. If we were on the other side we'd be cheering.

i suppose it would be characteristic of emerging guerrilla movements, like the viet cong in the early days against the french, fidel castro in the hills of havana?

but for a major world power to succeed at stealth warfare is stunning.

for me the issue now goes: what can we learn from this that will be to our total advantage.


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> I'm not sure NATO is a waste of money, it serves both us and our close allies a purpose. I disagreed with the latest round of NATO expansion as well as how it is used as a tool of US foreign policy at times but that is another topic for debate. In principal it serves a good purpose.


It's all about priorities, if goverment must cut, I'd prefer that they will cut NATO money, than increase OAS age or penalties on CPP early retirement. NATO recently requested from Canada to double spendings, so far Canada followed Germany and rejected it... probably mostly because elections is not too far away and Harper just afraid... We have NORAD and imo it's enough... and spending hundreds million on ukraine - is ridiculous


----------



## humble_pie

gibor is so right! definitely cut NATO & NORAD, hand over canadian foreign policy to the *stupid US.*

but why stop there? why not switch to pay-as-you-go health care? scrap public schools? shut down pre-natal health programs? stop all early childhood education funding? disband the armed forces & the police? lay off the coast guard?

don't hesitate to eliminate federally-funded scientific research, National Research Centres & related institutes, all grants to engineering, science, medical & pharmaceutical faculties across canada.

the $$ saved are to be promptly spent upon increasing OAS for seniors & other retirement/early retirement benefits, exactly as gibor says.

it's a question of priorities, says our gibor. The priority has to be coddling our mollied seniors harder than ever. Forget about maintaining hospitals, highways, bridges, seaports & water treatment plants.

in particular, search out & shower funds upon those lovely, opportunistic, self-centred, grasping pre-retirees who arrived upon our shores only a few years ago. 

so what if they've contributed little or nothing to the nation! they believe they are entitled, so that's all that matters, right.


----------



## gibor365

Sweetie, stop lying... the only thing from your list that I was really saying is to cut NATO spending (plus Ukraine-like spending, like last year it was for Syria)... and use tjis money on all social programs you listed .. and several times on this forum I specified that NORAD is enough and shouldn't be cut
_grasping pre-retirees who arrived upon our shores_ you meant yourself (unemployed French journalist). right?!

P.S. On;y idiot cam compare NATO and foreign "aid" spendings with local social programs


----------



## humble_pie

gibor said:


> *It's all about priorities, if goverment must cut, I'd prefer that they will cut NATO money, than increase OAS age or penalties on CPP early retirement.*


lol he wants his OAS improved!

in reality there is no correlation between NATO contributions & OAS spending, why would you think that?





gibor said:


> ... grasping pre-retirees who arrived upon our shores ... you meant yourself (unemployed French journalist). right?!


no, not at all. I've often mentioned who my ancestors were, how they came to this land centuries ago. 

but then, you seem to be one of those persons who observes nothing, hears nothing, sees nothing. Gives nothing while incessantly demanding a lot.

i think there's a great deal to be admired in a clear presentation of what russia is seeking, not only in ukraine but around all of her borders. We are impacted in canada's north, so it's something that canadians wish to think about. The high Arctic is clearly a priority for ottawa, as can be seen by the recent basing of some F18s in Inuvik rather than their home base near edmonton.

unfortunately, you have not turned out to be this spokesperson. I had hoped you might be, but alas there are too many blows from yourself, too much rude insolence, too much verbal abuse. The avalanche of false links to bald kremlin propaganda & lunatic fringe blogspots is appalling, along with the constant claims that these are bona fide facts.

also, i don't appreciate frequent swearing in this forum. No one swears except yourself, so it looks a bit raw & uncouth.


----------



## dogcom

I happen to agree with Humble and Gibor on the media coverage we get from RT different blogs and the mainstream media. The mainstream media is used by the west to direct propaganda to the masses to get agreement on whatever they plan to do. Of course you will get a little other coverage to give it a look of balance but it is certainly not enough to give people enough to think any other way then what the bought and paid for media hands out. If anyone in the mainstream media does any real reporting and really hold people to the fire they would be fired or worse and I would guess it would be the same in the Russian media. 

Thomps I believe we were under the Liberals when we were asked to join the war in Iraq, I am sure if Harper was asked by Bush he would have been more then happy to join the fight in Iraq and in fact would have done so faster then anyone else.


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> Thomps I believe we were under the Liberals when we were asked to join the war in Iraq, I am sure if Harper was asked by Bush he would have been more then happy to join the fight in Iraq and in fact would have done so faster then anyone else.


I'm sure Harper would jump even before Bush asking


----------



## gibor365

_also, i don't appreciate frequent swearing in this forum. No one swears except yourself, so it looks a bit raw & uncouth._ sweetie, if you don't like it - than shut up and put me on your ignore list... :stupid:
"people" like you understand only certain language , it took me some time to understand who u r, but now I know exactly :stupid:

_who my ancestors were, how they came to this land centuries ago. _ Holy .... Jacques Cartier ?! :biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

gibor it is disgraceful that you cannot reply to the twin issues of your numerous freakish links plus the large quantities of disinformation that you keep on filing to this thread.

it is disgraceful that the sole response you can muster is to post insults & ad hominem attacks.

there is the issue of the falsified freak link just above. 

there are too many of these distorted posts coming from yourself & in my opinion they disfigure this thread & render rational discussion impossible.

another recent example upthread was the delay of a few days by the dutch investigation team of their report on the shooting down of malaysian flight M17. With no proof, with no backup, with nothing whatsoever except screaming accusations, you posted that the brief delay "proved' that the shooters of flight M17 had been ukrainians, not east ukrainian rebels firing russian anti-aircraft missiles.

i didn't comment on that post, but privately i thought to myself that it was another piece of hysterics from gibor-the-clown.

as a matter of fact, i've let most of your claims float on the breeze, even when i knew they were wrong.

it's too bad you keep on posting the way you do, because the aggregate effect of your messages is to turn the russian cause into a laughingstock. Surely this is the opposite of what you presumably want. It's regrettable because there is a crying need for a reasonable & articulate defender of russia in this thread.

certainly mr. Putin's policy makes sense to him, although it's not going to fly in the west. The best workable outcome is going to come, not from parties shrieking accusations like yourself, but from those who will be able to calmly figure out how to work with him.


----------



## gibor365

_but privately i thought to myself _ you can continue to do it :stupid: and if you accept only links of western propoganda, it's your problem


----------



## dogcom

Gibor I wish Harper had a mind of his own when it came to foreign policy and I would maybe vote for him, but it looks like I will be forced to go Liberal next election.

Defending Russia with its aggressive past of empire building and a bought and paid for western media makes is very hard to make a case for Russia. This entire mess was created because the US couldn't get rid of Assad because of Russia and get the Nat Gas pipeline to Europe from Qatar. Then there was the issue of Russia and China moving away from the US dollar creating a direct threat to the US empire. The US needs interest rates very low or the entire system will go down drowning in debt so they must manipulate all markets and foreign affairs to keep the system from completely falling apart. Europe of course needs the same so it is going along with all this for now.


----------



## gibor365

dogcom said:


> Gibor I wish Harper had a mind of his own when it came to foreign policy and I would maybe vote for him, but it looks like I will be forced to go Liberal next election.


I also don't like majority of Harper foreign policy... Sometimes I have impression that he calls Obama to ask permition before he's doing something 
But internaly, I'm also not too impressed ... all those stupid "reforms" and actions regarding Canadian telcos as I expected , resulted only in higher prices for everyone, 
He was promissing to lower taxes - I don't see it, to get rid of GST -> he reduce % twice per 1% and that's it... It's all "cool" that it's called now HST, but it's not going down...


----------



## humble_pie

gibor said:


> I also don't like majority of Harper foreign policy... Sometimes I have impression that he calls Obama to ask permition before he's doing something
> But internaly, I'm also not too impressed ... all those stupid "reforms" and actions regarding Canadian telcos as I expected , resulted only in higher prices for everyone,
> He was promissing to lower taxes - I don't see it, to get rid of GST -> he reduce % twice per 1% and that's it... It's all "cool" that it's called now HST, but it's not going down...




more shrieks from gibor the clown :biggrin:

why don't you do something about it for a change, gibor? go campaign for the NDP or the communist party of canada - they have a fairly illustrious record, btw - but whatever you do, stop whining & bawling & whimpering on here like a baby.

it must _torture_ you to have to hang around in this dreadful country


----------



## gibor365

Dear Jacques Cartier ancestor... I told ya that you can ignore my posts... be careful as u r pretty old and can have health issues :biggrin: 
I'll choose by myself for whom I gonna do campaign ... you constantly following my posts and if you think that my position is close to NDP/Communists , I'm sorry forr...u r :stupid:

P.S. you to refresh your memory, you just may follow your own suggestion to nemo "*perhaps i haven't been clear enough? this is a finance forum. Your racist sneers don't belong here, imho*"


Cheers sweetie :biggrin:


----------



## humble_pie

oh don't flatter yourself, for the longest time now i don't bother to glance at your incessant posts.

because they are 98% infantile, whining, neverending drivel.

however, in this thread, which has devolved from events in ukraine to a general consideration of russian expansionist plans, there is now a heightened concern with canada's north.

so i'll continue to voice my moderate views & i'll oppose your crackpot freaklinks when you make them each:


----------



## thompsg4416

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140929/193440379/Another-Burial-Site-Found-Near-Donetsk.html

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/moscow-blames-kiev-for-mass-grave-in-ukraine/507758.html

This is showing up quite frequently in Russian news sources I.E RT and RIA as well as the KYIVPost. I can't find anything from reputable western sources other then the Moscow Times. 

I guess the OSCE wants to wait to have more info before commenting further.. That said I can't help but wonder what sort of speculation would be happening in the western newspapers if the situation was reversed...


----------



## thompsg4416

actually I just found this on the OSCE website... http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/124216 

*e ‘military police’ of ‘Donetsk People’s Republic’ (‘DPR’) told the SMM that three unmarked graves allegedly containing multiple bodies had been found; two of them were located in a coal mine Komunar near the village Nyzhnia Krynka (35km north-east of Donetsk) and one inside the village. The SMM proceeded to the scene and saw in the coal mine two areas located fifty metres apart, each containing two human bodies. All four corpses were in the process of decomposition. The SMM also saw eight 9mm Makarov pistol cartridges approximately five meters away from the bodies. Near the road on the edge of the village, the SMM observed a pile of earth resembling a grave which had a stick with a plaque, written in Russian and containing the names (or in one case – initials) of five individuals. The plaque indicated that the individuals died on 27.08.2014. On top of the plaque there was another inscription saying: ‘Died for Putin’s lies’. Neither in the coal mine nor in the village did the SMM see any forensic experts. COMMENT: The SMM cannot provide a forensic assessment of the sites.*


----------



## gibor365

thompsg4416 said:


> http://en.ria.ru/world/20140929/193440379/Another-Burial-Site-Found-Near-Donetsk.html
> 
> http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/moscow-blames-kiev-for-mass-grave-in-ukraine/507758.html
> 
> That said I can't help but wonder what sort of speculation would be happening in the western newspapers if the situation was reversed...


I don't wonder ! Western media would compare Russia in general (and Putin in particular) to Gestapo, Nazis, Hitler etc... and can you imagine what kind of repression gonna happen if ukraine getting back control over Donetzk, Lugansk and other territories?


----------



## humble_pie

thompsg4416 said:


> This is showing up quite frequently in Russian news sources I.E RT and RIA as well as the KYIVPost. I can't find anything from reputable western sources other then the Moscow Times.



actually thomps i saw several reports of civilian executions in east ukraine, intermittently, all summer long, in english & in various media.

what's not clear is which side murdered who. Many reports say that the pro-russian east ukrainian rebels carried out the slaughters.

for example, here's a media report that describes kangaroo courts set up in slovyansk this past summer by russian nom de guerre Igor Strelkov, who ordered summary executions.

reports describe murders of citizens suspected of sympathizing with west ukraine or for petty crimes such as burglary.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/d...stice-in-east-ukraine-was-bureaucrati#3tkbsma


but for a truly masterful wrap-up of today's leading stories about who's killing who in the middle east & russia, here's the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29368707

here, one can read how leading politicians on russian state TV are claiming that ISIS leader Abu al-Baghdadi is secretly a CIA operative. Evidently al-Baghdadi - said to have been recruited by the washington spy agency when he served time in a US military prison in iraq - is now believed to be plotting with the US & NATO to attack russia.

if that's not titillating enough, the BBC explains how russia fears that ISIS will invade the caucasus plus accuses ukrainians & their western military allies of shooting down malaysian flight M17 after packing the airliner full of dead corpses, mostly Dutch nationals, in amsterdam.

all in all, the BBC has produced an ace roundup here, one that covers many of the current franken follies.


----------



## thompsg4416

Zhirinovsky is a quack.. As soon as I saw his name I stopped reading. 

HP I've heard all the same things you have... I don't necessarily doubt their truthfulness either. My initial point was more about how little coverage the uncovering of mass graves has received in the western media. Although after further investigation it seems the "mass" moniker might be a misnomer.


----------



## humble_pie

thompsg4416 said:


> ... My initial point was more about how little coverage the uncovering of mass graves has received in the western media. Although after further investigation it seems the "mass" moniker might be a misnomer.


some question whether the terns "mass graves" & "massacre" are appropriate here. Some are saying that 4 or 5 bodies do not constitute a massacre. Especially when it's unknown who did the killing.

the western media has had its hands more than full with mass deaths elsewhere since spring 2014 - more than 400 children killed in gaza - the same number missing or worse in africa - ebola - JMHO but i for one saw a few stories of isolated east ukraine graves across the summer weeks & i believe that the media editors gave those stories the right amount of prominence & attention.




> Zhirinovsky is a quack.. As soon as I saw his name I stopped reading


yes, the article is a roundup of current franken theories. Some are widespread among russians.

it's too bad the zhirinovsky interview was the lead - if that's why you stopped reading - because the rest of the article is a workmanlike compilation of moscow conspiracy theory. He's by no means the only one who thinks the US & NATO intend to invade russia.

it's by listening to some of these ideas that westerners can begin to understand how vast is the communication & ideology chasm that has to be bridged, don't u think.


----------



## thompsg4416

humble_pie said:


> it's too bad the zhirinovsky interview was the lead - if that's why you stopped reading - because the rest of the article is a workmanlike compilation of moscow conspiracy theory. He's by no means the only one who thinks the US & NATO intend to invade russia.
> 
> it's by listening to some of these ideas that westerners can begin to understand how vast is the communication & ideology chasm that has to be bridged, don't u think.


Most Russians do not take him seriously either. With regards to NATO and the US actually invading Russia I'm not sure that would be possible. However I don't think Moscow is out in left field when it comes to the fact NATO has been steadily encircling them - which makes them uncomfortable. Ukraine is a red line. This much has been demonstrated for now.

Perhaps its in our(the wests) best interest to contain Russia in this manner... I'm not sure, maybe it is, maybe its not.

One thing for sure... the narratives coming from each side are drastically different. I'm not sure how this can be bridged.


----------



## Toronto.gal

The current world order according to Russia's 'harsh & sincere' braggadocio. 

From 4:52 [about 45 minutes]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ziP6JHDuRw


----------



## dogcom

Murder of Boris Nemtsof a few days before opposition rally in Moscow.

Unless Putin can blame this somehow on the CIA then he gains nothing by contracting this murder out. If he wanted it done he would have arranged a car or plane crash or something. Still however Nemstof wasn't very popular and was no threat politically to Putin.

The CIA has much to gain by this murder and pinning it on Putin if possible. If the plan doesn't work I am sure they would make some ISIS member turn up to be responsible in some way by finding his drivers licence dropped by the crime scene or something.


----------



## dogcom

Not exactly Ukraine but is the Syria issue about to be recycled by the west.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...id-syria-us-refloats-assad-chemcial-weapons-t


----------



## gibor365

US started this mess, Canada and some other Western countries supported.... so why no party here or in US want to accept those refugees? Or at least to increase number of idependend immigrants (Canada), Green Card lottery (US)? Why all PR and propoganda got concentrated on Syria?
imho, I know the answer, but would like to know what is your opinion....



> Ukraine crisis has created more than 2 million refugees, UN reports
> 
> More than 800,000 people have fled Ukraine as the conflict made towns and villages uninhabitable and destroyed vital infrastructure, according to UN statistics.
> 
> The total number of refugees created by the crisis is almost certainly over 2 million with the authorities in Kyiv recording 1.2 million residents who have left their homes to stay with friends and relatives or in government facilities in other parts of the country.
> 
> Russia has seen 659,143 Ukrainians claiming asylum or another form of permission to stay in the country. This number excludes anyone who has chosen to cross the border without contacting the authorities or those with Russian citizenship who have left eastern Ukraine.
> 
> An additional 81,100 Ukrainians have applied to stay in Belarus, with thousands more seeking refuge in other neighbouring countries, the UN refugee agency reports.
> 
> Destruction of hospitals and damage to water supplies is contributing to the exodus from areas where Ukrainian soldiers are battling fighters from the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic, the UN report said.
> 
> Displaced people are at risk from discrimination and children particularly suffer psycological trauma as a result of things they have seen and the conditions they have lived in, the report adds.


http://www.euronews.com/2015/04/22/...ated-more-than-2-million-refugees-un-reports/


----------



## gibor365

> About 730,000 Ukrainians have left the country for Russia this year due to the fighting in eastern Ukraine


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukrain...e-entered-russia-to-escape-fighting-1.2727574

Western propogande telling that Russia occupied Ukraine, than why the majority of Ukrainian refugees fled to Russia and not to the more western regions of Ukraine?!


----------



## Parkuser

gibor said:


> Western propogande telling that Russia occupied Ukraine, than why the majority of Ukrainian refugees fled to Russia and not to the more western regions of Ukraine?!


Here is a story I know from the press. 

In 1941 a director of a school in Kaluga (Russia) goes to war and ends up as a German prisoner of war. After the war, as a suspected traitor he is not allowed to go back home. (Russian soldiers were supposed to die, not get captured.) He has a choice, Vorkuta (Siberia) or Donbas. Donbas, because nobody wants to live in Donbas – pollution. So this is how this Russian ended up in Ukraine. Seventy years later one of his kids considers herself Ukrainian, the other Russian.

Voluntarily (the government) or not (the oppressed Russian individuals), Russians have occupied Ukraine. And Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus. Formerly occupied people are now free to revolt, former occupiers are escaping to Russia. Is it very surprising? You do not know history of your former country and consider everything a western propaganda.


----------



## gibor365

> former occupiers are escaping to Russia


 What are you talking about?! Ukraine joint Russian Empire in 1654 !.


----------



## Moneytoo

Gibor, give it up - many North-Americans believe that U.S. won WWII, so arguing with them about history is like [insert a non-offensive comparison - don't want to be blamed for hate speech lol]


----------



## supperfly17

Moneytoo said:


> Gibor, give it up - many North-Americans believe that U.S. won WWII, so arguing with them about history is like [insert a non-offensive comparison - don't want to be blamed for hate speech lol]


Was there really a winner?


----------



## Moneytoo

supperfly17 said:


> Was there really a winner?


Yes - Captain America: http://www.cracked.com/article_18389_the-5-most-widely-believed-wwii-facts-that-are-bullshit.html


----------



## gibor365

Moneytoo said:


> Yes - Captain America: http://www.cracked.com/article_18389_the-5-most-widely-believed-wwii-facts-that-are-bullshit.html


Ha ha , it's funny, but it's a truth 


> There are two radically different histories of WW II, the one that was actually fought, and the one where the US kicked everyone's assess


Also this guy who said about "occupation" is funny  Can you imagine that some guy was allowed to settle in Donbass, and wasn't allowed somewhere in Magadan or Vorkuta


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> Can you imagine that some guy was allowed to settle in Donbass, and wasn't allowed somewhere in Magadan or Vorkuta


Well my grandma was Russian from a tiny village in Smolensk region, my grandpa was Ukrainian from Poltava, they came to Donbas after the war (in which he fought and she was with him) because a) had a relative there who helped them settle and build the house and b) it was the best of both worlds (grandma never learned Ukrainian as everybody there spoke Russian ) I'm pretty sure they could've stayed in Vladivostok where they met before the war lol


----------



## Parkuser

Moneytoo said:


> Gibor, give it up - many North-Americans believe that U.S. won WWII, so arguing with them about history is like [insert a non-offensive comparison - don't want to be blamed for hate speech lol]


Fortunately, there is internet where the true version of Russian history has been seen over 7 M times, and counting. So this tragic ignorance of North-Americans will correct itself. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65SwzHAbes




Moneytoo said:


> ...(grandma never learned Ukrainian as everybody there spoke Russian ) ... lol


Maybe, just maybe, Ukrainian language was not promoted very strongly? The western propaganda says:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language

"...However, in the Russian Empire expressions of Ukrainian culture and especially language were repeatedly persecuted for fear that a self-aware Ukrainian nation would threaten the unity of the empire. In 1804 Ukrainian as a subject and language of instruction was banned from schools..."

"...Soviet policy towards the Ukrainian language changed abruptly in late 1932 and early 1933, with the termination of the policy of Ukrainianization. In December 1932, ... demanded to "immediately halt Ukrainianization in raions (districts), switch all Ukrainianized newspapers, books and publications into Russian and prepare by autumn of 1933 for the switching of schools and instruction into Russian..."

Obviously, this suppression of local languages was not unique to Russia. (Canada was no slouch in this department.) But it is not something to laugh about.


----------



## gibor365

Interesting  .... and my grandpa from Novograd-Volynsk, and grandma from Uman' , they met in Kiev where both were building communism , my dad was born in Kiev too, 1 week after he born , Germans occupied Kiev, and practically last minute they were evacuated together with aviation factory (when my grandpa worked) to Siberia. After war finished they weren't allowed to ,ove back to Kiev, as my grandpa was told that "the party needs you here!"


----------



## gibor365

> Fortunately, there is internet where the true version of Russian history has been seen over 7 M times, and counting. So this tragic ignorance of North-Americans will correct itself.


 Good beginning ... majority of North Americans don't watch such videos, they are just not interested..Hollywood movies give them enough info  .. Couple of years ago at my work (IT company) I did mini research asking co-workers simple questions, I was really surprised as for example no one could've tell year when WWII started , forget "extremely difficult" questions like What is capital of Australia or Belarus ... maybe there are exceptions, but I didn't see them..... 



> Maybe, just maybe, Ukrainian language was not promoted very strongly?


 first of all , how this related to fact that vast majority of refugees from East Ukraine escaping to Russia and not to West Ukraine?!
Secondly, I don't know what is written in Wikipedia, but Ukranian language was a mandatory subjects in Ukranian schools during CCCP...

P.S. you want to learn some real history? watch Oliver Stone documentary "Untold History of the United States" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Stone's_Untold_History_of_the_United_States
Even we found out some new facts...


----------



## andrewf

Let me guess, Russia won the cold war, too?


----------



## Moneytoo

Parkuser said:


> Fortunately, there is internet where the true version of Russian history has been seen over 7 M times, and counting. So this tragic ignorance of North-Americans will correct itself.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65SwzHAbes


not sure what you see in this video - but I liked it, made me smile 




> Maybe, just maybe, Ukrainian language was not promoted very strongly? The western propaganda says:


Most of the households in Donbas were Russian-speaking, so my grandma didn't have the need to learn Ukrainian. Yet it was mandatory in schools, so my mom, uncle and I learned it. It was easier to buy a good Russian book translated to Ukrainian, so it was a useful skill. Uncle moved to Western Ukraine after he got married, and in a few years was speaking in a Russian-Ukrainian mix, as most people there spoke Ukrainian. We were making fun of him when he was visiting, as it sounded funny (pure Ukrainian is a beautiful language, perfect for songs - but a mix is just funny )

We had many relatives in both Russia and Ukraine, and a lot of people, like me, couldn't tell for sure whether they felt Russian or Ukrainian. Other than [mostly harmless*] jokes about each nationality's prominent traits (Russian drinking and Ukrainian greed for example), it really didn't matter. Yet one of the main reasons for me when we decided to leave was that I didnt like the changes after Ukraine became independent - and I still can't fathom how they can be killing each other now...

* yes, I love Douglas Adams


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## gibor365

andrewf said:


> Let me guess, Russia won the cold war, too?


 Probably! Millions of former Soviet people "occupied" West and how many Western people live in Russia?!


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## andrewf

By that measure, I guess Africa subjugated colonial America through slavery. In soviet Russia...


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## gibor365

> By that measure, I guess Africa subjugated colonial America through slavery


 yes, to some degree


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## Moneytoo

My favourites are "Only in Russia" compilations: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dZTZJ0ybdXE


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