# Tshirt/Clothing Business



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I know there is a lot of competition, especially with cafepress.com, but I'm thinking about starting up a small clothing company. I'm not looking to get rich, I'm just looking to be able to break even and cover my costs with the possibility of making a profit. I would be 100% satisfied if I only covered my costs. I'm doing this more for the "business venture" than the actual profitability, but everyone likes to cover their costs 

There's always new fads, new clubs, groups, music bands, *new forums * etc that are looking for custom stuff. And there's always those high school kids just looking for something different.

I will have a brand name with my own T-shirts that customers can buy, but I will also make custom ones for people who do not want to purchase my brand.

What does everyone think?

What kind of licenses would I need?

I would assume I need a Business License, Copyright Registration, Trademark Registration. Anything else? Someone mentioned to me an exporting permit, but I dont think I need that to ship T-shirts to the United States.... do I? I could send a t-shirt to someone in the U.S. right now and I don't have a permit. Doesn't quite make sense to me...

I wont be setting up shop, this will mainly be an online thing with ebay, facebook, twitter, as my advertising/selling helpers.

I will have my own website domain, as well as email domain.

Any information/suggestions/criticism would be appreciated.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

This is nothing new, I can go in town and have a custom shirt made locally for $15-20 or print a lower quality one myself. There are illegal immigrants and other countries making custom shirts for next to nothing.

What is your edge on the competition such as http://www.cafepress.ca/


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I know its nothing new, which is my biggest fear.

The only edge I would have on something like CafePress is lower prices and a new brand name.

But like I said, I just want to break even... I don't need to make thousands.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

What would the Dragons say?

Personally I think this will end up being more hassle and effort than it's worth. If it is so easy to get into, everyone will be doing it. Everyone wants to have this stuff made overseas for cheap, consumers are addicted to cheap prices. You can break even by simply doing nothing. For that reason, I'm out.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> What would the Dragons say?
> 
> *You can break even by simply doing nothing. For that reason, I'm out.*


That was good.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Opps I didn't even see you already mentioned cafepress

There is an episode of "Dirty Jobs" about making T Shirts which makes me wonder why you'd do it for free. The experience is always good though

I had a side venture in school making videos of special events. I already had the cameras and DVDs cost pennies. Some I put no effort into and basically charged nothing but they still got high quality raw footage. Some I put a lot of effort into and it was easy to make as much $$ I needed for my time when the bottom line is that low. I never even knew of any competition and there was basically more work than I could keep up with. If you were good at it you could make a lot of $ just by word of mouth, and no out sourcing countries could replace it  Going legit is always a profit killer - hard to make a good video without using copywritten music!


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

The idea of of going into a business with trying to break even as your goal is disturbing to me. 

Why don't you have a nice little fire with your money instead? This way you'll save yourself some time and headaches. 

No one in their right mind would ever start a business without some expectation of profit - being in business is hard, there's tons of upfront cost and lots of hard work. 

Find a business you can make money at


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

go for it. if you think you will enjoy it and learn from it, then it will be time well spent. not everything is about money, be wary of those who don't see the whole picture!

I just call it tv time. why would you invite dragons to your tshirt business? wouldn't they just burn all the inventory??


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

A "Serger" to make T shirts at any sort of respectable pace is about $250,000
A printing machine another $250,000

To try to compete with offshore tshirts would be silly. 

Labour unions and _some _charities might pay a premium for a Canadian made T, but that's a small market, and the one or two T shirt companies left in Canada have it sewn up.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I can see it now - a t-shirt with Kevin O'Leary's shining pate on it. Give him a free one as his royalty.


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## clark_danger (Jul 14, 2010)

are you making tshirts or printing tshirts?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

And of course you will try to work something out to offer CMF T's.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

great idea cal i'd wear one.

what if armies of DIYers wearing CMF t-shirts suddenly started roaming the streets busses subways and banks yes BANKS of every canadian city.

we'd have to think of a slogan.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

One question to ask yourself, what value can you add to the business to give a competitive advantage? To look at it another way, why would a customer choose you over the others who are doing the same thing?


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

clark_danger said:


> are you making tshirts or printing tshirts?


Buying blank shirts/hoodies, etc in bulk and then printing them.




Cal said:


> And of course you will try to work something out to offer CMF T's.


Of course! 

*hystat*: Um. Since when is a printing machine $250,000? Do you think _anyone_ in their right mind would buy a printing machine for that kind of money? I rather just buy a house and call myself mortgage free. 
A printing machine is $1k. I don't need an industrial machine pumping out 2500 shirts/hour. All I need is a machine that can do 10 shirts an hour. And even 10 is a way more than enough for a business just starting up.

As *sprocket* said, this isnt solely about the money. In fact, its solely about trying to establish a self-sustaining business with covering costs as my main concern, and the possibility of profit at a later date once the costs have been covered. I dont expect to cover costs for at least 1 year.

*FrugalTrader*, That's the part where I see darkness. The only thing I have to offer that gives a competitive advantage is that I can sell shirts for cheaper prices ($10-15) CAD, and I would have established a new "brand" that may, or may not, fly. This is going to be the hardest part. I will have to advertise through the cheapest and free channels I can, along with word of mouth. Give out some free t-shirts, and essentially go a little further into debt to get some awareness. But everyone knows this. Can't sell a product if there's no awareness. 

Look at all those teenage girls that spend a fortune on clothes that probably cost less than your mcdonalds drink to make, just because it says "tna, bench, coach" etc. Then there's hollister, abercrombie, hurley, etc etc.

Sure, the people that own these companies have a lot more capital at hand, but their expenses are a lot more than mine due to their advertising on TV and such. I think it can easily be done on a smaller scale, as long as patience is taken. Plus, the printing machine is an asset. If I purchase it for 1k and dont make any money, I can probably sell the machine for $500 somewhere, along with all the shirts for $0.25/shirt and at least cover some of my costs.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

> As sprocket said, this isnt solely about the money.


If It is a business , it really should be about the money.
My son tried the same thing years ago , he lost money.
That doesn't mean it can't be done profitably by others though.
It has been done to death , but then what hasn't these days?

I think that it shows that you have some entrepreneurial spirit in you , and that is a good thing in my opinion , it doesn't seem like a huge outlay if you really want to give it a try , even if you don't make money , it will be a lesson learned , and maybe an introduction into self employment and business ownership.

Check out others with an unusual angle , like http://www.dirtshirts.com/ , or http://www.peiredmud.com/home.php .

Strive to come up with your own new angle and advertise , advertise , and advertise , I have been self-employed for 30 years , and it's all about advertising , people have to know what's out there before they can buy it.

In a business like that , you should have a little salesmanship in you as well , have some product ready and don't be afraid to get out and show it to retailers and specialty shops , display at flea markets , farmers markets , car shows , etc.

Send emails to local car clubs , sports clubs etc. , offering your services and wares , many businesses like hotels , pubs , and resorts like to have their staff wearing nice company shirts with names and/or company logos , make up a sample shirt or two and give it to the managers or owners with an offer to outfit their staff if they choose to. 

Websites are cheap and a must for just about any business these days , my website is my biggest asset when it comes to advertising.

Free shirts for CMF members would be a good start. (size XL)

Good luck if you do go for it.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Be careful if you start spamming - it's basically illegal and is a good way to get banned from forums and have friends blocking your email address.

I think your time and money would be far better spent and invested in education, not factory/production work. JMO.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If I'm going to buy a T shirt with a logo it's for some cause or person/thing that I support. My favorite t shirts are actually plain no logo nice material shirts. Those cheap quality ones aren't as comfortable and don't last

I refuse to be a billboard for those names like Hollister etc, and I know most people just buy it for the logo but don't those logos get popular from selling quality clothing in the first place? (be it overpriced) I don't really think people want to wear a cheap shirt with a random logo, unless it stands for something they support etc. Unless you can get some kind of viral internet spin on it, but I still think it has to be something other than just a logo

One interesting brand, and I watch the stock, is Lululemon. Expensive as hell but it is very nice quality stuff and made in Canada


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Do you think _anyone_ in their right mind would buy a printing machine for that kind of money? ...
> A printing machine is $1k. I don't need an industrial machine pumping out 2500 shirts/hour. All I need is a machine that can do 10 shirts an hour. And even 10 is a way more than enough for a business just starting up.


A close friend of mine is in that industry (promotional products)
One day she gets an order for 50 shirts, the next day 10,000 shirts.

She says it's a "go big or go home" business. A small printer could only survive if they also made other promotional items and had something unusual and interesting to offer.

She has a few solid and reliable vendors that can quote on any job, big or small. They understand 4 colour printing processes and can help with artwork. They have the right software to do digital approvals and samples. 
They know what will work on what shirt and what won't etc...
If they mess up, they have the resources to fix it.

Labour unions and the odd government dept. are the only customers that want to pay the premium to have stuff printed in Canada.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

One angle that she is always looking for, for clients is Eco friendly (Even if it's nonsense.. her customers love it)
If you could print with ink certified to be friendly to Canadian Beluga whales or some eco-sounding angle, you'd be in like Flynn.

She's always quoting stuff made with paper made from elephant dung or some nonsense.... when you realize it's a product purely promotional that no one needed in the first place, you have to laugh...

but it sells.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> ...One interesting brand, and I watch the stock, is Lululemon. Expensive as hell but it is very nice quality stuff and made in Canada


I am a shareholder in LLL bought during their IPO. While I appreciate your sentiment, they do make outfits in the Far East.

But their brand power is awesome!

What the OP needs is some kind of connection because just printing Ts is not a way to riches.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

just got a way over my head lesson from my friend on what it takes to make a single silk screen t shirt.
wow... you'd have to charge $75/shirt...
reclaiming screens, washing screens, burning screens....I couldn't keep up

a 5 colour shirt would require all that 5 times. 

So, she tells me there are digital presses.... but:
the digital print machines suck. 
2 or 3 washes and the colour washes out. People would not be happy. 
They are best for the Conklin midway sort of thing where you get outta town before anyone washes it.

My friend also says a kiosk in the mall with a dozen or so great pre-burned screens might be interesting to some... if you had really neat designs. but drumming up any commercial or web business would be brutal.

She says your brain and liver would be fried from all the solvents in a couple of years. The screen washing process is apparently quite toxic. Safer solvents are available now, but at a huge cost.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

kcowan said:


> I am a shareholder in LLL bought during their IPO. While I appreciate your sentiment, they do make outfits in the Far East.
> 
> But their brand power is awesome!
> 
> What the OP needs is some kind of connection because just printing Ts is not a way to riches.


Ahh yes Cdn brand but not made in Canada - go figure. Not buying or wearing it myself but wish I bought during their IPO!


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I know nothing about the t-shirt biz, but it seems to be one of these "everyone is doing it" kind of businesses.

Which generally means there is a bit of money to be made, but you have to work hard to get it. End result might be minimum wage.

There are so many businesses you can start with little to no startup costs, that I wouldn't even consider something that needs $1k or more to start if I'm just looking to start a business for fun.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

hystat said:


> just got a way over my head lesson from my friend on what it takes to make a single silk screen t shirt.
> wow... you'd have to charge $75/shirt...
> reclaiming screens, washing screens, burning screens....I couldn't keep up
> 
> ...


If you got all this information from your friend, that means you don't even understand what you're preaching. 

$75/shirt? 

Go do some research.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

hystat said:


> wow. you're right. I don't understand. I work for a living at something the 3rd world can't do better than me for $1/hr
> 
> you don't want to hear from someone in the business?
> 
> ...


Really?

Well, since you know so much, why don't you go ahead and break down the costs of materials that makes that shirt a $75 expense?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The only way you could, and I emphasize the word "could", be successful is to design your own style of tee, develop a highly brandable logo that will market successfully to your consumer, and develop a distribution network.

All of that takes knowledge, time, money, luck and a lot of hard work.

If you have a passion for it.........consider this route.

If all you want to do is make a few bucks........there are much easier ways.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags the dov charney approach has been tried & it failed.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

You have no competitive advantage.

You are entering into an already hyper-competitive niche.

You don't even know the market. You don't know the customers, you don't know the product.

You don't care if you make money.

This isn't a business idea. It's not even a hobby.

You start a business when you know your market cold, from product to sales, have sales already in place, have identified a niche that's open and you already know how to exploit the market. You have absolutely none of that.


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## clark_danger (Jul 14, 2010)

hystat said:


> just got a way over my head lesson from my friend on what it takes to make a single silk screen t shirt.
> wow... you'd have to charge $75/shirt...
> reclaiming screens, washing screens, burning screens....I couldn't keep up
> 
> ...


That sounds about right lol
Maybe not $75/ shirt.
>ost places charge between $10-20/ per screen (colour) for setup fees.
Don't forget artwork charges! $40+ per hour. if you go into a screenprinting shop with a logo on a little business card that is poor quality it has to be completely redrawn.
You could get a one-off for about $35 if it was one or two colours.
but that is usually the case where the one shirt is a sample shirt in order to get a higher volume order.
Most screenprinters won't touch an order under a dozen.

The digital printers do suck. we use an Anajet Sprint. garbage.
It will do one-offs with out all the headache but the costs and maintenance are too high. a tiny little ink cartridge is about $80. 

I imagine cafe press uses digital printers on garments and sublimation on other promotional items.

and if you want to jump on the band wagon and do affliction style shirts, well that's even more. waterbased inks, discharge inks, foils, all over prints, enzyme/silicone washes. affliction shirts retail for $50+ and I'm sure the work is done overseas.

There is a print shop in toronto that does all the fancy stuff.
and they are fairly priced http://www.astroscreenprinting.ca/


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Although I appreciate the input, I think some of you guys are thinking a little too industrial.

I will not be charging $40/hour for artwork designs.

This is solely a small online business. Not looking to make big bucks and quit my job.

This is more of a hobby and a venture.
This is what I tried to convey in my earlier posts.

I'm more concerned with the licensing, trademark registration, etc I need to get started, as opposed to how much an industrial machine will cost.

clark, you make a good point on the screens, though.
Washing the emulsion off the screens will become a pain in the ***. I may want to consider charging a few bucks extra for "custom" material.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> This is more of a hobby and a venture.
> This is what I tried to convey in my earlier posts....


Sorry we can't help you make money with a hobby. As long as it remains a hobby on the side, you can ignore patents. You are too small a fish to attract attention. Just avoid obvious things like Starbucks and beer labels.


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

> This is more of a hobby and a venture.
> This is what I tried to convey in my earlier posts.


It's one or the other. If you're looking for your hobby to be a business - and that's certainly understandable, you're still doing the wrong thing. Everything you're doing says fail.

If you want to screw around with a business, write the following down:
- what do you love to do?
- what do you know a lot about?
- what do you have experience with?

That'll give you a bit of an idea. from there,
- where are there gaps in the market that aren't being filled? Lower price, products missing, poor service?
- then attack that market.

Your hobby will be a lot more fun if it's not guaranteed to be a miserable failure right from the start.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

The big unanswered question here is WHY.

WHY do you want to do this? You've said it's not about making money, so what is it? When I think of a hobby, I think of collecting stamps and building models, not doing something that has to satisfy customers.

I'm not trying to be a smart a-s, I really want to know the reason that you seem so determined to do this.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

As well, the thread is meant to give you constructive feedback so that you think critically about your business and perhaps force you to think outside the box.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, I can't say I understand the business model, but I personally buy hand-screenprinted t-shirts from etsy.com. (I can't understand the business model because the shirts are too cheap for much - or any? - profit to be built in. Nevertheless, there are people selling on etsy who make a decent amount of coin.) (Here's a link to 28,000 hand screenprinted t-shirts on etsy.)

My younger brother started a business in his teens (with a partner) to make climbing holds for indoor gyms. They were actually really successful - so successful they needed to move out of the family garage where they'd set up shop. Ultimately, they decided not to expand. But if you asked my brother, he'd say that the process of setting up a business, learning how to succeed and then having the model they'd set up break (because it couldn't handle the expansion in its existing form) was really, really useful to him in thinking about how businesses form, grow and survive. 

So, sometimes a business is really just a hobby - but sometimes a hobby can also be a business; or at least it can teach you things about a business. I'm in the camp that says if you want to do this, go for it.


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