# $500 dollar payment to every Canadian over 75



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

What a crock. Most seniors over 75 an take care of themselves. If the government wanted t help needy seniors just give them a boost on their OAS supplement. This is just another example of reckless and wasteful spending by a person born with a gold spoon in his mouth.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Another round of vote buying. They should increase the OAS instead, which would be more meaningful than a one time vote buy attempt. I sure hope Trudeau doesn't suck any more voters in with his shameless antics.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is an increase in the OAS.

The OAS will go up 10% for those 75 and over starting in July 2022.

The government had to wait for the budget to get passed before making the changes to the system so it was delayed due to the pandemic.

This $500 payment covers this year, when they had pledged it would start. They are fulfilling a pledge from last election.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Not a chance OAS should be increased. Claw back ranges are far too high, i.e. they don't start until about $80k and don't zero out until almost $125k. That is an insult to the taxpayer. 

The money should go to GIS instead....to those that really need it (increase amount and clawback thresholds). The aim should be to provide up to $25k of support.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I think they should augment GIS if anything. Provide seniors with baseline income needs to remain out of poverty. Create a means-tested base for all seniors, like AR mentioned, say $25k per year. Any senior making over $100k per year hardly needs "income security" re: OAS. That program needs an overhaul. 

An overhaul of the entire tax system is totally needed and I would vote for anyone pushing for that reform. It's a total mess.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Not a chance OAS should be increased. Claw back ranges are far too high, i.e. they don't start until about $80k and don't zero out until almost $125k. That is an insult to the taxpayer.
> 
> The money should go to GIS instead....to those that really need it (increase amount and clawback thresholds). The aim should be to provide up to $25k of support.


That's not how vote buying works.

Hopefully people should see this for what it is.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Are your guys hoping to see some insightful voters this time? Don't hold your breath! Crass vote buying with our own money is what politics is all about. Hey we are getting more hydro from NFLD eventually. And subsidized by us already!

Let's get some of that for our BC dam as well. There is still time...


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> That's not how vote buying works.
> 
> Hopefully people should see this for what it is.


OF course we know it is about vote buying vs what is sensible. It is embarrassing how cheaply seniors can be bought.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The GIS will rise in lockstep with the OAS increase, so people on GIS will collect more. It makes no difference to them if it was given in GIS or OAS.

I do agree the OAS needs reform. The thresholds should start at $40K and OAS should be eliminated by $50k per person. (not including the OAS)

Qualifications for GIS should also include assets. Why should someone own homes, cottages, and investments and still collect GIS ?

CPP should perform an audit to see if benefits should be raised, due to the superior return on investment over the benchmark for decades.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

@sags you do realize that some 65 year olds receive oas/gis, right? How are they helped by this?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Liberals increased the GIS maximum benefit by $1,000 in 2019.

Specific to this 10% increase in the OAS (of which $500 is this year's increase paid out in one lump sum), they are raisng the GST by an equal 10%.

So people will have an increase in 10% of their GIS benefit. What isn't clear is if the 10% increase in the GIS is only for people aged 75.

I doubt it.....as it would create a lot more work for the CRA......but I can't say for sure.

My view is that if we gave less to those who don't need it we could give more to those who do.........and likely also save some tax dollars.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> My view is that if we gave less to those who don't need it we could give more to those who do.........and likely also save some tax dollars.


The retirees of today lived through the greatest economic growth in human history, they had ample opportunity to prepare for the future, they simply didn't save for retirement.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> The retirees of today lived through the greatest economic growth in human history, they had ample opportunity to prepare for the future, they simply didn't save for retirement.


Or some of them did not have the opportunity to do so due to personal misfortune along the way such as major family personal physical and mental health issues, pension wipe outs (Nortel et al), etc. Perhaps the better response would be MOST retirees. 

Having GIS as a safety net is community compassion.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

I think they should stop borrowing money they don't have to give more money to people who may not need it and force children who cannot yet vote to bear the burden of it for the rest of their taxpaying lives.

Just a thought.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

I have mine set aside for beer and popcorn.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Mechanic said:


> Another round of vote buying. They should increase the OAS instead, which would be more meaningful than a one time vote buy attempt. I sure hope Trudeau doesn't suck any more voters in with his shameless antics.


Trudeau is buying votes with 8 bottles of vodka LOL


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Trudeau is buying votes with 8 bottles of vodka LOL


$60 vodka?

That's in the Trudeau club of $50/case "boxed" water.








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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> $60 vodka?


Yeap, Russian Standard I'm buying is around $64 per bottle


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

OptsyEagle said:


> I think they should stop borrowing money they don't have to give more money to people who may not need it and force children who cannot yet vote to bear the burden of it for the rest of their taxpaying lives.
> 
> Just a thought.


Would you apply that to all government benefits and subsidies ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Trudeau is buying votes with 8 bottles of vodka LOL


Not quite......$500 this year and $766 (maximum) a year for the rest of their lives.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

sags said:


> Would you apply that to all government benefits and subsidies ?


I would apply the point that we don't have the money to everything we spend money on. Why should Canadians, that have not even been born yet, pay for benefits to Canadians who have? Of course some things are more important then others and of course some things can actually be paid for with actual money received via taxation. Unfortuneately too much is only paid for by borrowing and pushing the payment can down to the road of some other generation. That is just wrong on way too many levels.

Things like this one are easy to cut. Many others would create real backlash but should also be cut.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

OptsyEagle said:


> I would apply the point that we don't have the money to everything we spend money on.


government benefits and subsidies in Canada are pretty modest! Canada wastes a lot of money on different BS "projects" and corruption ... I just cannot understand why Israel (with all tense political situation , spending billions on defense, having less taxes) can pay OAS 4 times more than Canada?! (my mom is getting OAS from both countries, so I can compare)


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

OptsyEagle said:


> Unfortuneately too much is only paid for by borrowing and pushing the payment can down to the road of some other generation.


Sound like everyone should only vote for those with a balanced budget on the next election?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

OptsyEagle said:


> I would apply the point that we don't have the money to everything we spend money on. Why should Canadians, that have not even been born yet, pay for benefits to Canadians who have? Of course some things are more important then others and of course some things can actually be paid for with actual money received via taxation. Unfortuneately too much is only paid for by borrowing and pushing the payment can down to the road of some other generation. That is just wrong on way too many levels.
> 
> Things like this one are easy to cut. Many others would create real backlash but should also be cut.


So, you would keep the benefits that you like.

I think that is what everyone thinks.

The political party that creates the most benefits that the most people like........usually wins.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Why just above 75? Even IF OAS spending should be increased (which it shouldn't, as everyone except Sags has already said) it should go to 65 year olds more than 75... 65 year olds still have lots to do with money... have kids they could help out with little grand kids, travel, community things etc.

What are 75+ year olds up to? not much for the most part. The money will just sit in a savings account at a big 5 bank... great stimulus plan lol.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Kind of curious why some Canadians fret over the deficit so much when the rest of the world doesn't care at all.

Nary hear a mention of it in the US these days. Even Rand Paul has gone silent and Paul Ryan is nowhere to be seen.

What happened to the tea party, balanced budgets, and spending cuts in the US ? They are spending our overall debt in one sitting of Congress.

The Europeans have mass protests for more government spending. The Chinese spend whatever they feel like spending.

Personally, I think it is a non-issue, until it becomes an issue for all those other countries as well.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

peterk said:


> Why just above 75? Even IF OAS spending should be increased (which it shouldn't, as everyone except Sags has already said) it should go to 65 year olds more than 75... 65 year olds still have lots to do with money... have kids they could help out with little grand kids, travel, community things etc.
> 
> What are 75+ year olds up to? not much for the most part. The money will just sit in a savings account at a big 5 bank... great stimulus plan lol.


Good question. I don't know why they picked age 75 as the magic number.

I also posted that the OAS should only pay to people with incomes below $50K per year, and that GIS should include assets as well as income to qualify.

If the government changed the two situations above.........they would save lots of taxpayer money.

But alas, even when hard line Harper briefly mentioned it in passing and wealthy people collecting GIS went crazy........he had to say he was only kidding.

So he tried a different tactic and raised the age to collect OAS and GIS to 70. The people said "I think not", gave him the boot and elected Justin Trudeau.

People won't abide spending cuts. They want increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations, and elimination of all the tax evading loopholes.

Trudeau understands the political reality, but I don't think the Conservatives do yet.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> *Good question. I don't know why they picked age 75 as the magic number.*
> 
> I also posted that the OAS should only pay to people with incomes below $50K per year, and that GIS should include assets as well as income to qualify.
> 
> If the government changed the two situations above.........they would save lots of taxpayer money.


It's obvious! There are much less people 75+ than 65+. Many 75+ died from Covid. Those below 75 are hoping to survive when they reach 75. Cheap way to buy votes!



> I also posted that the OAS should only pay to people with incomes below $50K per year, and that GIS should include assets as well as income to qualify.


 I'd agree 100% if those savings will lead to income tax deductions and not for bringing pseudo-refugees , corruption, handling money to QC separatists, "great rest" etc


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

sags said:


> So, you would keep the benefits that you like.
> 
> I think that is what everyone thinks.
> 
> The political party that creates the most benefits that the most people like........usually wins.


Where did I say that? All I said is we should strive to pay for what we spend money on because it is the right thing to do and most ethical and considerate to future generations.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

cainvest said:


> Sound like everyone should only vote for those with a balanced budget on the next election?


It's funny but when you say that it actually seems like a real question. It really illustrates how far we have come when we actually would accept a governing party that does not ever expect to balance the budget. I mean isn't that what governments should be doing. Figuring out what we can afford, from the taxation that a society can pay, and then determining where best to spend that amount of money. It is called a budget and of course it needs to be balanced.

Why would anyone vote for anyone that was not going to do, one of the most important jobs they are elected to do? 

I know my astonishment to this question is quite foreign to most Canadians, but I leave that as a vivid sign of how far our spoiledness and entitlement has actually come. It is literally mind boggling to me.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> government benefits and subsidies in Canada are pretty modest! Canada wastes a lot of money on different BS "projects" and corruption ... I just cannot understand why Israel (with all tense political situation , spending billions on defense, having less taxes) can pay OAS 4 times more than Canada?! (my mom is getting OAS from both countries, so I can compare)


We don't get the USA to pay for much of our budget like Israel does. IOW, not a fair comparison, and clearly not without a comprehensive comparison of tax revenue and expenditures being conducted. Data mining one off anecdotes is just not relevant.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Personally, I think it is a non-issue, until it becomes an issue for all those other countries as well.


Printing money is a stealth tax on the future. It's a non-issue for boomers because they will be gone in the future

Due to financial illiteracy and instant gratification most are fine with kicking the can down the road by diluting fiat

Anyone who understands this is quietly buying crypto because it's too late to fix the boomer debt spiral


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> *We don't get the USA to pay for much of our budget like Israel does.* IOW, not a fair comparison, and clearly not without a comprehensive comparison of tax revenue and expenditures being conducted. Data mining one off anecdotes is just not relevant.


Just an excuse! US provide only military assistance to Israel (btw, 2nd biggest receiver of US military assistance is Israeli "friend" Egypt . And with this assistance , Israel MUST buy (at vast majority) ONLY US military equipment, even if it's inferior.
American military assistants is nothing to do with OAS, CPP, Health Care and so on, esp taking in consideration that Canada spends practically nothing on military and has puppet military...

P.S. I don;t know what anecdotes you are talking about, I;m filling taxes every year for my mom and MIL and operate with real numbers


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just read that Israel ranked #3 in Pension system in the World, after Netherlands and Denmark !









Best Countries for Pensions and Retirement


These are the countries with the best pension systems. The U.S. isn't even close to the top.




www.investopedia.com





And Netherlands and Denmark have one of the highest income taxes in the World, and their VAT is much higher than in Israel








List of countries by tax rates - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> OF course we know it is about vote buying vs what is sensible. It is embarrassing how cheaply seniors can be bought.


I don't really see how it is vote buying, Those who will benefit from it (like those posting here) don't give two hoots about it, and many are against it anyway. 

Government programs like GIS and OAS should keep pace with inflation and so far as I can see, that is all this is.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Government programs like GIS and OAS should keep pace with inflation and so far as I can see, that is all this is.


Because giving out $500 ONLY for 75+ just before expected election is a pure votes buying....


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

GIS and OAS are already indexed for inflation. It should be for GIS only to shore up the bottom end.. Absolutely blatant unabashed vote buying.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> Just read that Israel ranked #3 in Pension system in the World, after Netherlands and Denmark !


I can't wait for hundreds of thousands of Canadians to now emigrate to Israel. Just don't buy anything there with a 17% VAT.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> GIS and OAS are already indexed for inflation. It should be for GIS only to shore up the bottom end.. Absolutely blatant unabashed vote buying.


IMHO, it would be fair to raise combined OAS+GIS (aka living wage) for ALL 65+ seniors...
P.S. The question is ... my mom is starting to get OAS+GIS next month (after residing in Canada 10 years) and she is 75+ .... would she get those extra $500?!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I can't wait for hundreds of thousands of Canadians to now emigrate to Israel. Just don't buy anything there with a 17% VAT.


You know perfectly that not ever Canadian can immigrate to Israel  and 
_There are *approximately 35,000 Canadian citizens* living in Israel . _On the other hand_ there were 15,010 Canadians who claimed full or partial Israeli ancestry, although it is estimated that *as many as 30,000 Israelis* live in Canada._

17% Israeli VAT is less that majority of other developed countries and it's comparable with 13% Canadian HST..... 4 times higher Israeli OAS vs Canada and much less taxes aren't


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> 17% Israeli VAT is less that majority of other developed countries and it's comparable with 13% Canadian HST..... 4 times higher Israeli OAS vs Canada and much less taxes aren't


You know that is not a legitimate mathematical calculation. Everyone pays VAT and only a fraction receive OAS.You know better.....


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> You know that is not a legitimate mathematical calculation. Everyone pays VAT and only a fraction receive OAS.You know better.....


Everyone 65+ gets OAS and this is most vulnerable population , I believe both, Israel and Canada don't pay VAT/HST on food/essential products (also no VAT in Israel on public transport, not sure about Canada). 
So, not on all products you pay VAT, but everyone pays income taxes that in Israel they are significantly less than in Canada.
You know better......
P.S. Why you so aggressive in defending Canada, hence you are more Albertian that Canadian


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

While I was born in AB, I don't live there and have no desire to do so. It's hopelessly in trouble (with no VAT). 

I comment because the disparaging of Canada is often well over-the-top. For what it is worth, I would guess less than 1% of CMT members care a hoot about comparisons with Israel or most other small countries. I would think comparisons with the top 20 or so OECD countries that matter in the broad scheme of things might be of member interest.

FWIW, Canada's rates are competitive with OECD countries, especially if one lives in the 'right' provinces.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

OptsyEagle said:


> I mean isn't that what governments should be doing. Figuring out what we can afford, from the taxation that a society can pay, and then determining where best to spend that amount of money.
> 
> Why would anyone vote for anyone that was not going to do, one of the most important jobs they are elected to do?


Exactly but I bet it won't be a point on many peoples radar even though we're in much deeper debt now. In fact, a surplus (to pay debt) should be the target, not a balanced budget at all.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> While I was born in AB, I don't live there and have no desire to do so. It's hopelessly in trouble (with no VAT).
> 
> I comment because the disparaging of Canada is often well over-the-top. For what it is worth, I would guess less than 1% of CMT members care a hoot about comparisons with Israel or most other small countries. I would think comparisons with the top 20 or so OECD countries that matter in the broad scheme of things might be of member interest.
> 
> FWIW, Canada's rates are competitive with OECD countries, especially if one lives in the 'right' provinces.


This is just stupid "patriotism"  Look at real numbers! .... Both Israel and Canada are part of OECD. And Canada is just #20 in GDP per capita

_According to the data compiled by the publication, with GDP per capita of $43,689 for 2020, *Israel ranked 19th out of the top 20, above No. 20 Canada, with per capita GDP at $43,278*; No. 21 New Zealand, with $41,127, and the UK with $40,406 at No. 22.
Luxemburg tops the ranking with GDP per capita of $116,92_1

It's funny when you are talking about "small countries" , as #1 is Luxemburg with *637,117* ppl...
Canada is a bunch of countries-provinces when only ON has higher population than Israel.



> I would guess less than 1% of CMT members care a hoot about comparisons with Israel


 another "fake news".... you won't find 1 CMF (why CMT?) member who didn't mention Israel in regards to Covid


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> GIS and OAS are already indexed for inflation. It should be for GIS only to shore up the bottom end.. Absolutely blatant unabashed vote buying.


Personally I think the hand outs are a great thing for us serniors. Service costs at our car dealerships keep increasing. As do many other things, such as our country club memberships and green fees. How are us seniors supposed to cope without help from our government?

Seriously though, I don't believe a small boost in OAS/GIS will change many voters minds. Just gives ammunition here for those who are forever critical of whatever our government does.

By the way, not all over 75s sit in armchairs waiting to die while watching the money in their savings accounts accumulate interest!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

@gibor365: Okay, so GDP is one measure of 'wealth' but so what? There is a lot more to 'interest' in a country than GDP. Interest to me includes a desire to at least visit if not consideration to actually live and/or work there. If one is NOT going to want to live there at least part time, why care if it even exists, never mind make comparisons too? It simply isn't relevant.

Have it your way as you wish. These posts have taken a severe detour to the subject at hand (useless actually) and I doubt anyone else is reading them.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

agent99 said:


> Personally I think the hand outs are a great thing for us serniors. Service costs at our car dealerships keep increasing. As do many other things, such as our country club memberships and green fees. How are us seniors supposed to cope without help from our government?
> 
> Seriously though, I don't believe a small boost in OAS/GIS will change many voters minds. Just gives ammunition here for those who are forever critical of whatever our government does.
> 
> By the way, not all over 75s sit in armchairs waiting to die while watching the money in their savings accounts accumulate interest!


None of that is of any consequence to your substantial income. You, like I, don't need the handouts at all, and the OAS bump for a select group is mere pocket change to us and won't influence our vote. It will matter to someone earning only $2000/month or so and hence the boost should be to GIS recipients only.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> @gibor365: Okay, so GDP is one measure of 'wealth' but so what? There is a lot more to 'interest' in a country than GDP. Interest to me includes a desire to at least visit if not consideration to actually live and/or work there. If one is NOT going to want to live there at least part time, why care if it even exists, never mind make comparisons too? It simply isn't relevant.
> 
> Have it your way as you wish. These posts have taken a severe detour to the subject at hand (useless actually) and I doubt anyone else is reading them.


So, you don’t have desire to visit Israel ever?! Pre Covid 4.55 millions visited Israel ... it’s 50% of the total population! 
Regarding living , it’s controversial... I think , we did mistake coming to Canada... same way feel many Israelis who came here... many, especially young generation, came back to Israel. And as per immigration numbers, the flow both ways are pretty similar. 
GDP per capita is an important indicator, and more important that Israeli GDP is sharply increasing, while Canadian is stagnant


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If I want to be surrounded by desert, I would rather go to Las Vegas and stay at the Luxor hotel for a middle-eastern experience.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I have no desire to visit any place in the Middle East (about the same enthusiasm for me as visiting the armpits and bowels of Africa) but that is neither here nor there for this discussion. Things like GDP, taxes, health care, and social programs really only matter IF one is going to partake of them by living there.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> @gibor365: Okay, so GDP is one measure of 'wealth' but so what? There is a lot more to 'interest' in a country than GDP. Interest to me includes a desire to at least visit if not consideration to actually live and/or work there. If one is NOT going to want to live there at least part time, why care if it even exists, never mind make comparisons too? It simply isn't relevant.
> 
> Have it your way as you wish. These posts have taken a severe detour to the subject at hand (useless actually) and I doubt anyone else is reading them.


How do you learn from others if you never compare their systems?
Isn't it worth-while to examine what is effective, and what isn't, when building any policy or a structure?
Not being so closed-minded might actually help in evaluating ideas, learning, and in general getting broader perspective on multiple aspects of life!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

There is nothing to compare. When Gibor can come up with a comprehensive white paper comparing all the nuts and bolts on both sides of the ledger and make a point by point comparison, comparing apples with apples, including what other social programs are part of the benefits packages in both countries, that would be a more useful and credible analysis. He has said nothing about whether there are means tested clawbacks and how much, qualification criteria, or whether there are other programs like CPP, senior's health benefits, etc.

IOW, he has presented nothing of value, just a sound bite with zero context. It is noise contributing absolutely nothing to this thread beyond a distraction.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> When Gibor can come up with a comprehensive white paper comparing all the nuts and bolts on both sides of the ledger and make a point by point comparison, comparing apples with apples, including what other social programs are part of the benefits packages in both countries, that would be a more useful and credible analysis. He has said nothing about whether there are means tested clawbacks and how much, qualification criteria, or whether there are other programs like CPP, senior's health benefits, etc.
> 
> IOW, he has presented nothing of value, just a sound bite with zero context. It is noise contributing absolutely nothing to this thread beyond a distraction.


Sure, there is also analog of CPP in Israel as well as analog GIS, I was just comparing OAS numbers.
It's not me , but Investopedia ranked Israel pension system as top 3.
Qualification is very straightforward , you reach age -> you qualify, even if you come at 70, yu don't need to wait 10 years like in Canada. If now my mom would moe to Israel, she will get 0 OAS, but whem she moved here, she got more than 7K OAS.
Yeah, there is no any clawback.
Many Canadians live in their imaginary world that Canada is the best country in the World and $500 one time payment to 75+ Canadians is a great Canadian Liberal thing ... in reality - it's BS and buying votes

P.S. Just remembered other Israeli social programs....

if you get laid off, you get IE right away, if you quit - you get it after 3 months....for example, I quit police after 7.5 years of service and got $35K in CDN in cash.
you get kids money depending of how much kids you have, your income doesn't matter as this money is for kids 9not for parents).... Funny, but in 1999 we were new immigrants and we never got any kids money, we always were getting letter from goverment that out income is too high (except for 1.5 years when Harper introduced Universal tax benefit)


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> Many Canadians live in their imaginary world that Canada is the best country in the World and $500 one time payment to 75+ Canadians is a great Canadian Liberal thing ... in reality - it's BS and buying votes


On this we agree. The $500 as packaged is utter bull dung.

P.S. Off-topic even more..... I think there is more to living in a country than GDP per capita and its associated trickle down benefits to residents. There is no amount of wealth in the world that would cause me to want to live in Israel. Beyond the dreary topography and issues of personal safety, the country is under constant threat for its existence. Every country has its pluses and minuses. I will leave it at that.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> On this we agree. The $500 as packaged is utter bull dung.
> 
> P.S. Off-topic even more..... I think there is more to living in a country than GDP per capita and its associated trickle down benefits to residents. There is no amount of wealth in the world that would cause me to want to live in Israel. Beyond the dreary topography and issues of personal safety, the country is under constant threat for its existence. Every country has its pluses and minuses. I will leave it at that.


I agree that Israel currently have security issues, this is why some people immigrate from Israel., but i don't agree at all about topography ! Yes, it used to be desert, now it became oasis.
This is forest from the "desert" (10 km from city we lived)










This is middle of the desert Negev









Dead Sea









Mezada (just above Dead Sea)









And Israeli ski resort 











or Golden Jerusalem?!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> I agree that Israel currently have security issues, this is why some people immigrate from Israel., but i don't agree at all about topography ! Yes, it used to be desert, now it became oasis.
> This is forest from the "desert" (10 km from city we lived)


lol, you working for Israel tourism?
Yes, a few photos that makes it look nice but really we have lakes bigger than the entire country! 
Have a peak at most of the Israel on google maps, see if you can pick out the "nice photo spots".


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Many here think the $500 handout is bull dung, or something equally unsavoury. Others just think it is poor use of taxpayers money. Others say they don't need it and won't even notice it.

How many CMF complainers are going to get it anyway? Maybe that *IS* the beef? How many of those of you complaining are under 75? 

For those who object to the $500 and ARE over 75, what are you going to do with YOUR $500?

What should/could be done with it? Maybe a Gofundme so one or two of our esteemed posters can visit Israel or the bowels of Africa and report back on what they find  
Or perhaps run in next election or financially support a candidate with cancel OAS handouts part of their platform? Will the current Opposition parties do that??
Other suggestions welcomed


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

I’m over 75 and so am eligible for the $500. Although this payment will be taxable, I am unsure whether this payment will be subject to the clawback rules. Do I need this money? The answer is - *NO *since I am classified as a high earner and subject to maximum clawback. What will I do with the $500? Make a tax installment payment of $500.


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## spiritwalker2222 (Nov 7, 2017)

cainvest said:


> Sound like everyone should only vote for those with a balanced budget on the next election?


And what party is that?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

@agent99: Our ITA is a complicated mess due to boutique tax credits and silly stuff like the proposed $500 top up for >75 year old geezers. I agree with you that there will NOT be that many >75 that will get it and even more won't keep it due to OAS claw back rules. Yes Virginia, it will be subject to claw back rules to avoid it being even more obscene than it already is....and to keep the cost to the taxpayer down. Remember this is about political optics, i.e. maximum splash for minimum cost.

The Covid-19 OAS top up of $300 received in 2020 as a bone thrown to seniors who didn't get CERB was NOT considered taxable income and even more obscene. I actually donated the $300 to the Conservative Party as a political donation and actually sent both Crysthia Freeland and Justin emails thanking them for the political donation to the Conservative party as a response to their idiocy.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Numbersman61 said:


> What will I do with the $500? Make a tax installment payment of $500.


Seems like a plan! That's where a good part of our income goes anyway.

If the government was going to reduce CG or Div taxation, that would benefit many here in higher income brackets, would there be the same complaints?

Late for tee-time - gotta run!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

spiritwalker2222 said:


> And what party is that?


Honestly none of them, we've been saddled with generational debt and Trudeau is working to create a structural deficit.
It's going to take decades to clean up this mess.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We took our extra $300 OAS each and stocked up on pandemic food and supplies.

So we supported local businesses and jobs, plus may have saved healthcare dollars by exposing ourselves less to the virus in the stores.

It can be a wonderful thing if people are smart about it.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Honestly none of them, we've been saddled with generational debt and Trudeau is working to create a structural deficit.
> It's going to take decades to clean up this mess.


The problem is that it is almost too far gone already. Not only would it require a very long time frame to cut the deficit to zero, in order to not cause a collapse in our economy, since our economy has got quite use to the GDP that deficit spending has created, but more importantly it would take quite a few election cycles. Probably 3 as a minimum (12 years or so). Since the cuts would be substantial since the deficit is substantial, it is unlikely a population of spoiled entitled voters who have become numb to deficits are going to re-elect anyone that attempts to do this.

I would say we are totally $crewed. The way Canada's finances will get rectified can probably only happen when the world cuts us off totally. They won't lend us money and for every 10% increase we add to the money supply (by way of printing money) our currency drops by 15% in the world market. At that time the fat lady will be done singing and this house of cards will have fallen.

After that I can't predict much so enjoy the good times now...and your $500 if you happen to be over 75. Just remember the price for it when the bill finally comes.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Nah........the world is advancing towards Mondern Monetary Theory economics.









A very detailed walkthrough of Modern Monetary Theory, the big new left economic idea


A very detailed walkthrough of the big new left economic idea.




www.vox.com


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

OptsyEagle said:


> I would say we are totally $crewed. The way Canada's finances will get rectified can probably only happen when the world cuts us off totally. They won't lend us money and for every 10% increase we add to the money supply (by way of printing money) our currency drops by 15% in the world market. At that time the fat lady will be done singing and this house of cards will have fallen.
> 
> After that I can't predict much so enjoy the good times now...and your $500 if you happen to be over 75. Just remember the price for it when the bill finally comes.


Two saving graces:
1) A selfish one - I am likely too old to eventually see (or understand) the implosion of this scenario when it happens - albeit all of my Gen-X offspring could bear the brunt of it
2) Many (most) OECD countries are in the same place muting the effect. If all central bankers keep printing money, perhaps there will be enough adhesive to keep it together.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Numbersman61 said:


> I’m over 75 and so am eligible for the $500.


Would you vote Trudeau now?! LOL


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Two saving graces:
> 1) A selfish one - I am likely too old to eventually see (or understand) the implosion of this scenario when it happens - albeit all of my Gen-X offspring could bear the brunt of it
> 2) Many (most) OECD countries are in the same place muting the effect. If all central bankers keep printing money, perhaps there will be enough adhesive to keep it together.


Well the problem is that if every country is a fiscal disaster, we'll get a global crisis, instead of a few isolated countries.

That being said, I think we've sentenced the next generation to some pretty harsh times. That being said, lots of the next generation (in their 20's) is already making things worse for themselves...


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Two saving graces:
> 1) A selfish one - I am likely too old to eventually see (or understand) the implosion of this scenario when it happens - albeit all of my Gen-X offspring could bear the brunt of it
> 2) Many (most) OECD countries are in the same place muting the effect. If all central bankers keep printing money, perhaps there will be enough adhesive to keep it together.


I get it that your providing facts @AltaRed, and I agree with them. But with respects to 2) why are Canadians leading the jump off the bridge? We should have been the last country to jump, if at all. JT is burning our entire productive economy to the ground over ideology and woke games and as soon as the Bonds loose their appeal....Canada is toast. There is no new money to be taxed. I get it that most boomers don't think its going to affect them, but don't be surprise if it does.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

There is no doubt that many other countries are worse off then we are. I have always said, government deficits and democracy go together like pie and ice cream. That said, the fact that other countries may implode before us creates two possible scenarios.

The first is that the country is less productive then us and gives us the warning we need to get our fiscal act together. Unfortuneately, I was hoping Greece would be that country, but we ignored that warning completely.

The 2nd is that the country is more productive then us. So, here we have the US or a large european country, to be first to be cut off. My suspicion here is that all that will do is take away an opportunity for us to reduce the harshness of our hard landing, by way of taking away the potential for a bailout of sorts. It certainly won't distract the world from our state of fiscal affairs.

On an aside, I also worry about semantics. When countries fall on hard times you tend to find politicians, in an attempt to get elected, start pointing fingers at various groups or countries, who they say are at fault. It does not really matter if they are or were, but when that happens, the people suffering do appreciate a person who is willing to call them out on it and hopefully punish or get restitutions. The best example of that was Germany before world war ll and Hitler pointing the finger at Britain, France, US and of course jews and just about anyone not German. They also were building their power which allowed them to do a little more then just point a finger. We all know how that one ended. Here I worry what the American's will do, when their fat lady is done singing. When their prosperity ends and the debt bill comes due. Will they point their finger at China perhaps. The Middle East. Canada. I know how little Canada will respond but what about the others and do I want to find out the answer to that question.

Let's just say, I would prefer, not to find out and simply pay for our current spending as we do it (balance our budgets) and not just hope that spending more then we make is somehow sustainable and actually something that provides some form of permanent wealth without any local or world implications. Is my only hope to escape this to be lucky enough to die before it all happens? Is that really the only solution we can have?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Conservatives are still mired in the "sky is falling" theories from the Reagan years.

All we have to do is service the debt and that is easily done. Countries like Greece got into trouble because they didn't have a tax base for revenues.

We have a formidable tax collection structure and our tax base is continually expanding.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

sags said:


> All we have to do is service the debt and that is easily done. Countries like Greece got into trouble because they didn't have a tax base for revenues.


But we are not doing that. If we were doing that, in a lowering interest rate environment, the deficit would be declining. Our deficit has been going up every year, in that interest rate environment which means we are spending more, every year, by simply borrowing more money to do it and borrowing even more money to service what we borrowed in years past. If we could get it from the tax base, then why don't we?

This deficit keeps going up because people want the easy benefits and others come up with nonsense like what you post to give them the hope that we can spend more then we make forever and it all somehow works out in the end. 

So far on this thread the only viable strategy surrounds the idea that It can work out if you are lucky enough to be dead. That is the best hope we seem to have.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

OptsyEagle said:


> This deficit keeps going up because people want the easy benefits and others come up with nonsense like what you post to give them the hope that we can spend more then we make forever and it all somehow works out in the end.


Let me help...." This deficit keeps going up because people want the easy benefits *where they expect others to pay for the services. There are not enough "others"." *


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

kcowan said:


> Are your guys hoping to see some insightful voters this time? Don't hold your breath! Crass vote buying with our own money is what politics is all about. Hey we are getting more hydro from NFLD eventually. And subsidized by us already!
> 
> Let's get some of that for our BC dam as well. There is still time...


No, no insightful voters. They don't exist except in small pockets of the country. Our debt burden and crappy tax system is doomed unfortunately.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> 2) Many (most) OECD countries are in the same place muting the effect. If all central bankers keep printing money, perhaps there will be enough adhesive to keep it together.


An economist friend has tried to educate me on central back policies like creating money out of thin air aka MMT or helicopter money.

He is of course against it in principle. But my argument, that he somewhat reluctantly agrees to, is that in this pandemic all countries are affected. If they all do more or less the same with respect to monetary policy, Canada may be no worse off than others. And more than likely, a lot better off.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

agent99 said:


> An economist friend has tried to educate me on central back policies like creating money out of thin air aka MMT or helicopter money.
> 
> He is of course against it in principle. But my argument, that he somewhat reluctantly agrees to, is that in this pandemic all countries are affected. If they all do more or less the same with respect to monetary policy, Canada may be no worse off than others. And more than likely, a lot better off.


Unfortunately, that is untrue. Countries have different productive engines. Some are large, others are small. Countries with large extremely large productive engines can plow out debit trouble much quicker than others. In Canada, we have a regional branch office economy, which is being torn asunder by the current political leaders.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

afulldeck said:


> Unfortunately, that is untrue.


Really? Do you really have current data on every country's monetary policy and subsequent actions during the pandemic? Or even for just those with similar size or larger economies than ours?

If so, How did you gain that knowledge?

If you had said, "that may not be totally true" , perhaps I wouldn't be calling you out on making a flat statement that can't be corroborated.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think the point is a majority of our economy does not stand on its own and that which does is highly dependent on trade anyway, e.g. commodities, rails, pipelines, and supporting infrastructure like telecoms and banks. We simply do not have a large consumer population base that can bail out (sustain) the home economy when countries go isolationist. The USA can go isolationist, shut down their offshore divisions (read Ontario branch plants) and have their economy sustain itself at some level shutting the door at the US-Can border. Never mind that Canada's productivity level has always lagged the USA at circa the 80% level (the approximate rightful value of the loonie). When the elephant sneezes, Canada catches the flu.

We are relevant only to the extent the USA lets us be. 

The EU is somewhere in between with a consumer base comparable to the USA but with turf fights that would no doubt break out. I don't know about some of the other OECD countries like Japan, but you get the picture.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The cost of servicing the debt is lower today than before the pandemic, despite all the pandemic spending.

The Liberal government wisely refinanced all the debt at lower interest rates and for longer terms.

Servicing the debt doesn't lower the debt. It only pays the cost of financing the debt. At the present time servicing the debt isn't a major concern.

Naturally occurring inflation lowers the purchasing power of accrued debt. Owing $1,000 in debt in 1950 was more onerous than owing $1,000 today.

If interest rates rise dramatically and bond holders demand higher interest on debt that could be a problem, and that is why central banks all over the world are considering MMT. They are questioning the wisdom of being held captive by third party bond holders.

In fact, they are already practicing MMT to some extent (lending money to yourself and paying interest to yourself) in some countries like the US.

People on this forum often talk about "self financing", but seem to forget about the concept when discussing sovereign debt.

The global financial system works for as long as the major countries in the world agree to accept the status quo.

MMT was once thought of as an oddball economic theory, but not anymore. The current economic systems are old and no longer reflect the reality.

If you look at who defends the current economic system and don't support a change to MMT.....it is the billionaires and old guard that got rich from it.

It isn't that surprising that those who benefit the most from the current system don't want anything to change.

If governments decide to universally accept the MMT economics model as the status quo......it is a done deal.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

agent99 said:


> Really? Do you really have current data on every country's monetary policy and subsequent actions during the pandemic? Or even for just those with similar size or larger economies than ours?


And this type of data precision says what? Sometimes the simplest answers is the best-we Canadians don't have the population large enough (or the prerequisite economy engine) to repay all but a littlest portion of this spending mess. @AltaRed made that point above. I feel for those who inherit this mess. 

But if MMT really works, why should Canadians be taxed at all? Why should any citizen even bear that cross?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

agent99 said:


> Really? Do you really have current data on every country's monetary policy and subsequent actions during the pandemic? Or even for just those with similar size or larger economies than ours?
> 
> If so, How did you gain that knowledge?
> 
> If you had said, "that may not be totally true" , perhaps I wouldn't be calling you out on making a flat statement that can't be corroborated.











Jack M. Mintz: In government spending and deficits, we're now No. 1 in the world


Unproductive public spending outstripping economic growth will be our real albatross threatening prosperity in years ahead




financialpost.com


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

+1 Canada is technically heading to a train wreck if it continues down this path. IMNSHO, it is frankly immoral how Canadians feed at the trough in silence. Little protest and anger to speak of.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> government benefits and subsidies in Canada are pretty modest! Canada wastes a lot of money on different BS "projects" and corruption ... I just cannot understand why Israel (with all tense political situation , spending billions on defense, having less taxes) can pay OAS 4 times more than Canada?! (my mom is getting OAS from both countries, so I can compare)


I know this conversation stopped already, but I looked it up and found that Israel pays $603/mo in retirement pension while Canada pays $626/mo in maximum OAS. Your mom moved here after she was already an adult so she does not receive full OAS. But if you compare full to full, Canada comes out ahead.

Unless I am missing something?









Pension rates - Old Age | ביטוח לאומי







www.btl.gov.il








__





Old Age Security: How much you could receive - Canada.ca


Old Age Security (OAS) provides monthly payments to seniors who are 65 years or older, are or were Canadian citizens or legal residents, and have resided in Canada for the required number of years.




www.canada.ca


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Spudd said:


> Unless I am missing something?


Interesting that I was missing the knowledge that this $500 increase is a permanent 10% increase next year for those 75 and over. They seem to have created a two tier system. So next year those age 75 and older will get $750 extra a year.

"Increased Old Age Security pension at age 75 July 2022
Seniors aged 75 and over will see an automatic 10% increase of their Old Age Security pension, as of July 2022."

Perhaps they are seeding the idea that eventually they'll drop the 65-74 age group out entirely?

ltr


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Spudd said:


> I know this conversation stopped already, but I looked it up and found that Israel pays $603/mo in retirement pension while Canada pays $626/mo in maximum OAS. Your mom moved here after she was already an adult so she does not receive full OAS. But if you compare full to full, Canada comes out ahead.
> 
> Unless I am missing something?
> 
> ...


My mom in 2020 got $9,621.82 OAS from Israel (I file her taxes and have access to all amounts she gets). Maybe she get additional supplements (but for sure not GIS as she lost GIS after moving to Canada). It's much higher than Canadian Maximum OAS at $619.44.
But the point is you can get this maximum only if you live in Canada 40 years! In Israel you get full amount regardless years of living in the country. And obviously, you don't have 10 years waiting period starting to get $153/per month like in Canada. And considering huge amount of immigrants in both countries, the difference is very significant. You also need to live in Canada 20+ years to get OAS if you move out... In Israel AFAIR it's 10 years.
I When I turn 65, I will be living and paying taxes in Canada 30 years , so my monthly OAS will be $464 .
It wasn't my intent to argue where pensions are better (for me it's clear  , as well as to Investopedia who ranks Israel #3 in the World and Canada #9).
My point was that Canadian OAS is not so generous comparing to other countries (Israel was just example as I familiar with this country).


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> +1 Canada is technically heading to a train wreck if it continues down this path. IMNSHO, it is frankly immoral how Canadians feed at the trough in silence. Little protest and anger to speak of.


Thank you @AltaRed! I though I was alone in that assessment. Immoral is not a strong enough word. These voters are actively killing democracy. 

Canada has reach the point that the population can now vote themselves generous gifts. The winning political leaders (they are not) will be those who promise the most benefits. This is becoming an democracy in fast decline, due to complacency, apathy and dare I say "dependency". Once dependency is complete the government dictators will follow.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Gibor makes it sound like this should be a beauty contest on the world stage. Not so fast!

In my view, OAS technically should not exist at all. It should be strictly be a GIS program designed to raise low income seniors to poverty line of $25k and then start clawing back thereafter to $0 at perhaps $50k? income. Plus it should be both means tested (assets) and residence time tested. Why do we want a bunch of recent plus elderly immigrants feeding at the trough? We want strong, healthy workers who contribute to GDP and productivity.

I know that will never happen given middle/wealthy seniors feed at the trough like everyone else and they disproportionately vote, but I absolutely detest gimme..gimme...gimme by folks who do not need it.

Added: To those who think that is harsh, CPP should be the default basis for people contributing to a pension plan that will provide them with a satisfactory income (in addition to their own retirement savings). To the point where a full CPP pension is at least $2k/month in today's dollars. To support those who have not put in 40 years of contributions (because we do want productive immigrants) and for those who cannot earn maximum CPP due to no fault of their own (disability, parent at home raising kids, etc), GIS would supplement that as I have articulated to $25k per year. Everyone wins and we don't bankrupt the system.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Interesting that I was missing the knowledge that this $500 increase is a permanent 10% increase next year for those 75 and over. They seem to have created a two tier system. So next year those age 75 and older will get $750 extra a year.
> 
> "Increased Old Age Security pension at age 75 July 2022
> Seniors aged 75 and over will see an automatic 10% increase of their Old Age Security pension, as of July 2022."
> ...


IMHO, it would be more fair to have graduate increase by percent or so for everyone from 65


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Gibor makes it sound like this should be a beauty contest on the world stage. Not so fast!
> 
> In my view,* OAS technically should not exist at all*. It should be strictly be a GIS program designed to raise low income seniors to poverty line of $25k and then start clawing back thereafter to $0 at perhaps $50k? income. Plus it should be both means tested (assets) and residence time tested.* Why do we want a bunch of recent plus elderly immigrants feeding at the trough? We want strong, healthy workers who contribute to GDP and productivity.*
> 
> ...


All developed countries have OAS analog.... do you want Canada be like some shithole in Africa?!

Regarding *recent plus elderly immigrants feeding at the trough *is complete BS! Why person who worked and pay taxes for 30 years, should get 75% from lazy bum who was born here and didn't work 1 day?! Hence Canada selects independent immigrants based on their ability to pay taxes and contribute to GDP.
And why legal immigrants and Canadian-born should get less than all those refugees (majority of whom are pseudo-refugees)?!
P.S. I personally would agree to cancel OAS if taxes would be reduced accordingly


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Interesting that I was missing the knowledge that this $500 increase is a permanent 10% increase next year for those 75 and over. They seem to have created a two tier system. So next year those age 75 and older will get $750 extra a year.
> 
> *"Increased Old Age Security pension at age 75 July 2022
> Seniors aged 75 and over will see an automatic 10% increase of their Old Age Security pension, as of July 2022."*
> ...


My understanding that for seniors who get both OAS and GIS, this 10% won't matter, thus 10% increase in GIS will result in 10% decrease in GIS?! So, only 75+ seniors who already has high income (and don't get GIS) will benefit?!
Why they don't increase combine OAS+GIS amount?!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Merge the OAS/GIS, CPP, Disability benefits, child benefits, welfare benefits, EI benefits, child benefits, workers compensation, and all the other financial benefits the government pays out........ into one Guaranteed Basic Income.

Fund it with a single contribution from employers and employees equal to the present individual contributions into one invested wealth fund.

If need be to fund a GBI....eliminate the TFSA, principle residence exemption and charge full tax rates on 100% of capital gains and dividends.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Merge the OAS/GIS, CPP, Disability benefits, child benefits, welfare benefits, EI benefits, child benefits, workers compensation, and all the other financial benefits the government pays out........ into one Guaranteed Basic Income.
> 
> Fund it with one contribution from employers and employees........and that be that.


And cancel all hundreds of tax slips and credits, lay off 90% of CRA (hence they will have one Guaranteed Basic Income ) and introduce Flat Tax LOL


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> My understanding that for seniors who get both OAS and GIS, this 10% won't matter, thus 10% increase in GIS will result in 10% decrease in GIS?! So, only 75+ seniors who already has high income (and don't get GIS) will benefit?!
> Why they don't increase combine OAS+GIS amount?!


The GIS maximum benefit will be raised an equivalent amount as well, so a 10% increase in the OAS won't reduce the GIS benefit.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> And cancel all hundreds of tax slips and credits, lay off 90% of CRA (hence they will have one Guaranteed Basic Income ) and introduce Flat Tax LOL


That is a tough sell Gibor. People want to keep all their own government benefits and tax deductions but take it away from someone else.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> All developed countries have OAS analog.... do you want Canada be like some shithole in Africa?!


I stand behind my comments. OAS as currently designed is nothing more than gravy train. Scrap OAS and GIS and re-design into one program for 'those in need' to get them to $25k per year with conditions. It is stupid having the complex OAS + GIS system today. That would likely be better than ANY support system in the world. Lock, stock and barrel.

We have CPP for an 'earned' pension plan, an entirely different animal to a 'social' program. I'm done with this now... we've had this stupid conversation before.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> The GIS maximum benefit will be raised an equivalent amount as well, so a 10% increase in the OAS won't reduce the GIS benefit.


No one knows.....
Just now I called and talked with OAS agent (my mom needed some answers) and I also asked him about this 10% ... He replied that this is only proposal and it didn't pass yet and nobody knows anything.
On canada.ca appears _Seniors aged 75 and over will see an automatic 10% increase of their Old Age Security pension, as of July 2022._
The agent said that Old Age Security Program consists of Old Age Security pension + GIS. So, he's not sure if 10% increase would apply only to OAS pension OR for combined OAS+GIS. He advised me to check website close to July 2020 . But it will be really stupid to increase 10% OAS and decrease 10% GIS . It'd be good for us (as we never ever gonna get GIS) , but it will be bad for my mom with her current $153 OAS!

P.S. My mom is upset, she hoped to get one-time $500 , but only who was getting OAS in June 2021 is eligible.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I stand behind my comments. OAS as currently designed is nothing more than gravy train. Scrap OAS and GIS and re-design into one program for 'those in need' to get them to $25k per year with conditions. It is stupid having the complex OAS + GIS system today. That would likely be better than ANY support system in the world. Lock, stock and barrel.
> 
> We have CPP for an 'earned' pension plan, an entirely different animal to a 'social' program. I'm done with this now... we've had this stupid conversation before.


So like sags you support Guaranteed Basic Income?!
P.S. This conversation is really stupid as no government ever is going to cancel OAS.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I have no idea what you are talking about. This conversation has been entirely about post-65 seniors programs. I don't believe in blanket GBI. People need to sing for their supper while able bodied to do so, and while doing so, contributing to THEIR eventual CPP benefits which is a primary source of post-retirement income for many Canadians.

You are right though. No gov't will have the gonads to re-design and re-configure OAS to what it should be.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Perhaps some of you with such strong opinions on how Canada is financing the pandemic, instead of just being totally negative, could try to learn a little more about MMT, QE and Monetary & Fiscal policy in general.

If you have to be so strongly negative, back up your strong views with actual data. There are no universally accepted answers. Even economists differ widely in their opinions. Sometimes influenced by political leanings rather than common sense.

As mentioned earlier, my own uneducated opinion, is that if Canada needs to "print money" we should be fine, because our current production capability and work force are under-utilized. So long as we don't overdo this when compared with other equally sized or larger economies, we will be be able to fund the needs of the pandemic and set us back on road to a prosperous economy. As it is, it seems we are only partly financing the pandemic in this way. We are also borrowing (at very low rates)

This Australian article about MMT & QE might be worth reading. It discusses the plusses and minuses as well as the effect on inflation and in turn our investments.








Modern Monetary Theory – can it help with economic problems or is it just another Magic Money Tree? | AMP Capital


For some years now Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) has been gaining prominence as a solution to the perceived failure of traditional economic policies to achieve full employment & meet inflation targets, despite at or near zero interest rates...




www.ampcapital.com


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

We are overdoing it though compared to other equally sized or larger economies.
Highest deficit in the world.
And GDP growth is extremely slow, with over 50% of it coming from housing market fees.
The capacity is not under-utilized. It is simply shrinking.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't know about that. We had a huge trade surplus with the US and with vaccine production moved to Canada it will create a bigger surplus.

Ontario is literally booming right now. New plants all over the place.....ramped up auto production.....the economy is full steam ahead.

True that we need Quebec to continue strong and get Alberta out of the economic doldrums........but things are looking pretty good for Canada.

The biggest economic problem we have right now is a shortage of labor......specifically in skilled trades and healthcare.

My wife's retirement home has been trying to hire people for over a year and my son gets offers of employment all the time.

The shortage of skilled trades means companies are raiding each other for employees. Add in all the new jobs coming.....wowza....we is rocking it.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> We are overdoing it though compared to other equally sized or larger economies.
> Highest deficit in the world.
> And GDP growth is extremely slow, with over 50% of it coming from housing market fees.
> The capacity is not under-utilized. It is simply shrinking.


True! Everyone can check Canadian GDP trend and compare it with other countries 





Basic Data Selection - amaWebClient


United Nations Statistics Divisin - Basic Data Selection




unstats.un.org




Canada is one big disaster


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about. This conversation has been entirely about post-65 seniors programs. I don't believe in blanket GBI. People need to sing for their supper while able bodied to do so, and while doing so, contributing to THEIR eventual CPP benefits which is a primary source of post-retirement income for many Canadians.
> 
> You are right though. No gov't will have the gonads to re-design and re-configure OAS to what it should be.


This is your personal opionion about what “should be” 😁. Imho, should be as following:
Everyone is getting “living wage” amount and who has other saving through CPP, DB, investment income etc should get more on the top of living wage. You promote some pseudo-socialist system!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

That data is from December 2020 when Canada was virtually shut down due to the pandemic. We are full steam ahead now.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> This is your personal opionion about what “should be” 😁. Imho, should be as following:
> Everyone is getting “living wage” amount and who has other saving through CPP, DB, investment income etc should get more on the top of living wage. You promote some pseudo-socialist system!


I agree. Give people enough to survive and if they are happy with that they can watch tv all day. Most people will want more and will work for it. 

But even the hardest working people get sick or have some other reason to lose earnings, so they can count on at least enough money to tide them over.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> I don't know about that. We had a huge trade surplus with the US and with vaccine production moved to Canada it will create a bigger surplus.
> 
> Ontario is literally booming right now. New plants all over the place.....ramped up auto production.....the economy is full steam ahead.
> 
> ...


Even after single worst performance in entire world in 2020, setting the bar below ocean level,
Canada still has lower than average growth prediction for 2021


https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/[email protected]/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD



We are doing much worse than our peers on every single objective metric


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

damian13ster said:


> Even after single worst performance in entire world in 2020, setting the bar below ocean level,
> Canada still has lower than average growth prediction for 2021
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe you could extract the data to show that. The site is not that easy to navigate.

What I see from your link, is that Canada has:

Real 5% GDP growth rate which is in line with other advanced economies where the average is 5.1%
GDP/capita approx same as Germany, Japan and well above many others.
Inflation rate lower than advanced economies and for that most countries world wide
unemployment rate higher tham many, but these vary according to methodology used. It does seem to eave room for the stimulus that is being used.
Are those not objective metrics?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> I agree. Give people enough to survive and if they are happy with that they can watch tv all day. Most people will want more and will work for it.
> 
> But even the hardest working people get sick or have some other reason to lose earnings, so they can count on at least enough money to tide them over.


Wow! It’s a very rare case when me and sags agree 😁. Yeap, we need the bottom line, but if somebody wants more luxury life, couple of time per year vacations abroad etc, they have to work for it. Otherwise instead of going on vacation to Paris, France, they can go to Paris, ON 😁. 
And money can be easily found by cutting foreign aid (that anyway don’t reach poor people), refugees numbers etc


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

agent99 said:


> Maybe you could extract the data to show that. The site is not that easy to navigate.
> 
> All I see, is that Canada has a 5% GDP growth rate which is in line with other advanced economies where the average is 5.1% Is that not an objective metric?


Therefore lower than average.
And that is after single worst performance of entire world in 2020


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Maybe you could extract the data to show that. The site is not that easy to navigate.
> 
> All I see, is that Canada has a 5% GDP growth rate which is in line with other advanced economies where the average is 5.1% Is that not an objective metric?


I gave a link where you can see GDP for many years , it’s easy to navigate and you will be shocked looking at real numbers!
For example , for last 10 years (2010-2019) , Canadian GDP per capita dropped from 47,361 to 46,550 (down 2%)!
And US grew from 48,516 to 65,134 (up 34%)! Israel grew from 31,852 to 46,376 (up 46%)! 
And after Covid it would be even worse because Canada spent more money than any other country!


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> I gave a link where you can see GDP for many years , it’s easy to navigate and you will be shocked looking at real numbers


Yeah. Performance is pitiful. GDP growth since 2015 is significantly lower than inflation.
In real terms, Canadian economy is contracting, despite the housing that contributed to half of the nominal term growth


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> Wow! It’s a very rare case when me and sags agree 😁. Yeap, we need the bottom line, but if somebody wants more luxury life, couple of time per year vacations abroad etc, they have to work for it. Otherwise instead of going on vacation to Paris, France, they can go to Paris, ON 😁.
> And money can be easily found by cutting foreign aid (that anyway don’t reach poor people), refugees numbers etc


You will end up with an abundance of under the table cash jobs unless you give everyone the money regardless of income.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Synergy said:


> You will end up with an abundance of under the table cash jobs unless you give everyone the money regardless of income.


It’s difficult to imagine more under the table cash jobs that we have now in Canada... All house and car expenses as well as dental and some others , I pay cash because it’s at least 13% cheaper


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> It’s difficult to imagine more under the table cash jobs that we have now in Canada... All house and car expenses as well as dental and some others , I pay cash because it’s at least 13% cheaper


It would get much worse than it already is.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Seems to me just Canada bashing without concrete evidence. If Canada is so bad, which country would be a better place to live?

This is a report and forecast by OECD who are probably reliable source:









Canada Economic Snapshot - OECD







www.oecd.org





More from Conference Board of Canada









Canadian Outlook: Renewed Interest


An examination of the medium-term economic outlook for Canada—all major components including consumer expenditures, housing, government, non-energy business investment and trade. The outlook for the financial, labour and energy markets is also given along with costs and prices.




www.conferenceboard.ca





Still uncertain times everywhere, but I think we are doing OK.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

agent99 said:


> Seems to me just Canada bashing without concrete evidence. If Canada is so bad, which country would be a better place to live?
> 
> This is a report and forecast by OECD who are probably reliable source:
> 
> ...


It isn't Canada bashing. Canada has been in very good position respective to peers in early 2010s
It is bashing of government performance.
It has been historically bad. Not just by Canadian standard, but by international standard too.
All metrics show that, even the ones you showed.
We were in really good position, now we no longer are.
Look at GDP per capita trend from the link you supplied. Productivity.
Hell, even emission trend that stopped falling since Liberals got in power while it continued to fall for rest of OECD (who knew, apparently taxes aren't a valid environmental policy).
We are doing worse than comparable on all metrics.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

True! Canada reached maximum GDP per capita in 2012~2013 (above 52K in USD). Since then it goes down and down


----------



## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

gibor365 said:


> It’s difficult to imagine more under the table cash jobs that we have now in Canada... All house and car expenses as well as dental and some others , I pay cash because it’s at least 13% cheaper


Prior to the pandemic, I always paid our gardener and miscellaneous service providers in cash. Since the pandemic, my payments are all in e-transfers. The bank fess for these transfers is minimal - in my case less than $10 per month. I do believe the change in methods of payment is permanent - not only does it curtail the underground economy but it certainly assists in keeping track of my various expenses.


----------



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> Kind of curious why some Canadians fret over the deficit so much when the rest of the world doesn't care at all.
> 
> Nary hear a mention of it in the US these days. Even Rand Paul has gone silent and Paul Ryan is nowhere to be seen.
> 
> ...


Yes it sounds like the 1920s . Live for today and forget about tomorrow. The stock markets seem to be copying the 1920s model. I guess you don't think history can repay itself and the 1/2 time drama teachers can protect us?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Question.....how fast do you have to run to outrun the bear ? Answer.......faster than the slowest person in the group.

Canada has debt just like all developed countries. When we are the worst developed country for debt........then we can worry about the bear.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Question.....how fast do you have to run to outrun the bear ? Answer.......faster than the slowest person in the group.
> 
> Canada has debt just like all developed countries. When we are the worst country for debt........then we can worry about the bear.


Once we have the worst country for debt, it is already too late.
We were in good situation in early 2010s
Now we have added to debt fastest (by far) than any other country in the world.
We have GDP that is contracting in real terms.
The time to react is now and stop outpacing all the others in adding to debt.


In the latest reading (1Q2021) we had general government debt/GDP of 138.16%!!!!!!





Financial indicators of general government sector, national balance sheet accounts


Quarterly gross and net debt to gross domestic product for federal and other levels of general government.




www150.statcan.gc.ca




That puts us firmly in 9th place in the world behind:
Venezuela, Japan, Sudan, Greece, Lebanon, Cape Verde, Italy, and Libya.
You can classify Japan and Italy as developed countries, maybe Greece.

It is really bad and the trend is in bad direction.


----------



## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

sags said:


> Question.....how fast do you have to run to outrun the bear ? Answer.......faster than the slowest person in the group.
> 
> Canada has debt just like all developed countries. When we are the worst developed country for debt........then we can worry about the bear.


Sags, your comparative analogies do nothing to address the fact that we spend the money and generations to come later will have to service it...and that is only if it all works out well the way it is planned.

I remember in 2000 the analogy where analysts would say Nortel was a buy at over $100 per share because its valuation was much lower then Cisco's valuation, or JDS Uniphase's valuation. We all know how well that comparison worked out for Nortel.

These comparative analysis just illustrate how numb our entire world has become with respect to the use of debt.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Numbersman61 said:


> Prior to the pandemic, I always paid our gardener and miscellaneous service providers in cash. Since the pandemic, my payments are all in e-transfers. The bank fess for these transfers is minimal - in my case less than $10 per month. I do believe the change in methods of payment is permanent - not only does it curtail the underground economy but it certainly assists in keeping track of my various expenses.


I wanted to pay to plumber for his last job and also car mechanic vía e-transfer, but they declined and asked for cash


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

gibor365 said:


> I wanted to pay to plumber for his last job and also car mechanic vía e-transfer, but they declined and asked for cash


With few exceptions, I do not do business with folks, especially skilled trades and professionals that request cash. Either they run a fully licensed and legitimate business that I can target if I have too for liability, or they are not hired. The few exceptions I make (have made) are manual labour for things like cleaning up yard debris and occasionally window washing.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> I wanted to pay to plumber for his last job and also car mechanic vía e-transfer, but they declined and asked for cash


I have offered to put a payment on their credits cards. Some accept it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In Ontario, hiring people to work that is covered under the WSIB program requires assuring they are paid up in their WSIB premiums.

The WSIB does have investigators who gather information from home renovation stores selling large amounts of supplies to individuals, to relying on "tattle tales" neighbors.

That said......there is so much under the table work going on that it is impossible to catch everyone.........just the unlucky few.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> Once we have the worst country for debt, it is already too late.
> We were in good situation in early 2010s
> Now we have added to debt fastest (by far) than any other country in the world.
> We have GDP that is contracting in real terms.
> ...


We are already there








Canada Has Run Up The Largest Pandemic Deficit Of Any G20 Country


Canadians are worried about taxpayers’ huge bill for the pandemic response ― but don’t think now is the time to pull back.




www.huffingtonpost.ca


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> With few exceptions, I do not do business with folks, especially skilled trades and professionals that request cash. Either they run a fully licensed and legitimate business that I can target if I have too for liability, or they are not hired. The few exceptions I make (have made) are manual labour for things like cleaning up yard debris and occasionally window washing.


They don't request, they give you option to pay in cash (that's obviously cheaper) and any other method of payment (that's obviously more expensive). They are fully licensed and legitimate businesses.
There are some skilled professionals with whom I do business for many, many years , so I trust them.
Our dentist (we go to him for 20 years), for the same procedure have different payment options for different insurance coverages % and much cheaper if I pay in cash. And he always giving receipt regardless method of payment.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Funny how the markets don't have the same reaction to impending doom.

I was thinking about selling everything off at the current highs and putting the money in money losing GICs. 

Is that what you guys are doing?


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

I carry little cash and I would never pay cash to skilled professionals or tradespeople. I prefer to pay by credit card but some will only take e-transfer.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Numbersman61 said:


> I carry little cash and I would never pay cash to skilled professionals or tradespeople. I prefer to pay by credit card but some will only take e-transfer.


If paying by cash and by CC would equal same amount, I’d pay by CC. If I can save by paying cash, I’ll do it.
Just bought 20 visits to Russian Banjas (Saunas). Paying by cash, give me 15% discount


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Funny how the markets don't have the same reaction to impending doom.
> 
> I was thinking about selling everything off at the current highs and putting the money in money losing GICs.
> 
> Is that what you guys are doing?


No.......everyone is buying because the future never looked brighter....


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

sags said:


> No.......everyone is buying because the future never looked brighter....


No everyone is buying because their money is becoming worthless....better to own global business....


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

afulldeck said:


> No everyone is buying because their money is becoming worthless....better to own global business....


Why is the TSX so high then if it is better to buy Global business...❓ 
Have investors got things wrong ❓ 
Maybe they should come to CMF and learn a thing about monetary policy ❓

😁😁


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Market cap is only indirectly related to GDP and the TSX60 is the bulk of the TSX. Most of the companies (telecoms aside) have much of their business internationally with perhaps the majority, in some cases, of their earnings earned internationally. 

Bottom line is there is not much development opportunity left in Canada for our multi-nationals to exploit. Canada's GDP could falter significantly and the TSX60 would still do reasonably well. Even more so when the loonie dives and all their ex-Canada business is worth so much more in CAD terms.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> Market cap is only indirectly related to GDP and the TSX60 is the bulk of the TSX. Most of the companies (telecoms aside) have much of their business internationally with perhaps the majority, in some cases, of their earnings earned internationally.


So the reason TSX composite is at all time highs is because some TSX companies have international exposure?

Who would have thought that?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> Our dentist (we go to him for 20 years), for the same procedure have different payment options for different insurance coverages % and much cheaper if I pay in cash. And he always giving receipt regardless method of payment.


Much cheaper for payment in cash sounds like fraud to me. They should be charging the same price irrespective of how the patient is paying or whether or not they have insurance.

One may be able to justify a slightly higher fee to offset the work involved with insurance billing, etc. but all this should be spelled out on your bill. And they could include a small fee for those wanting to pay with credit card, etc. vs cash but there should not be a significant difference. Those that charge a fee paying by credit card would likely see a lot less patients.

Insurance companies are a cash cow for dentists. Dentists don't always play fair!


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Canadian economy looks pretty good to me with an expected 5% growth. We are in a much better position than the US.

It might not fit with the anti-Trudeau rhetoric.......but Canada is in fine shape.









2021 Economic Outlook for Canada


Strong consumption and a rebound in exports will give the economy a boost sufficient to return to growth in 2021.




www.bdc.ca


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

agent99 said:


> So the reason TSX composite is at all time highs is because some TSX companies have international exposure?
> 
> Who would have thought that?


I am saying the momentum of multi-nationals makes a difference (as do commodity prices priced in USD of course).. The key point is GDP and market cap are not directly correlated, so it is entirely possible for GDP to languish while market capitalization continues to climb.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Markets are ahead of the game. Strong markets are an indicator that investors expect a strengthening economy. Strong markets are hardly an indicator of future doom and gloom as several post earlier suggest. Nor could they totally be strong as a result of expected strength in international markets ( in which some Canadian companies participate. )
Markets, I believe, are up because both domestic and foreign investors see Canada emerging strongly from the pandemic.
Forget all the BS. Just thank your lucky stars that you live in one of the Worlds best countries.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

agent99 said:


> Markets are ahead of the game. Strong markets are an indicator that investors expect a strengthening economy. Strong markets are hardly an indicator of future doom and gloom as several post earlier suggest. Nor could they totally be strong as a result of expected strength in international markets ( in which some Canadian companies participate. )
> Markets, I believe, are up because both domestic and foreign investors see Canada emerging strongly from the pandemic.


I agree with you to a point, but you also need to compare GDP and market capitalizations on a per country basis to see major differences. They are not well correlated.

It's one reason why only a third of my portfolio is in Cdn equities, and almost exclusively multi-nationals (telecoms excepted).


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Synergy said:


> Much cheaper for payment in cash sounds like fraud to me. They should be charging the same price irrespective of how the patient is paying or whether or not they have insurance.
> 
> One may be able to justify a slightly higher fee to offset the work involved with insurance billing, etc. but all this should be spelled out on your bill. And they could include a small fee for those wanting to pay with credit card, etc. vs cash but there should not be a significant difference. Those that charge a fee paying by credit card would likely see a lot less patients.
> 
> Insurance companies are a cash cow for dentists. Dentists don't always play fair!


Who cares?! I get same service, but cheaper


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

agent99 said:


> Why is the TSX so high then if it is better to buy Global business...❓
> Have investors got things wrong ❓
> Maybe they should come to CMF and learn a thing about monetary policy ❓
> 
> 😁😁


So high? You mean over last year? 
There are two reasons:
1. commodities
2, money printing
That biggest deficit in the world you see went directly to the pockets of the wealthy - asset inflation.
Comparison of tsx with other indices:








TaxTips.ca - Historical returns on stock market and other investments


TaxTips.ca - Historical returns on stocks, bonds and T-bills with comparison to inflation




www.taxtips.ca





You can make up your mind, but facts are undeniable
Worst financial performance in entire world.
Top 3 government debt among developed countries (#9 in the world).
All from very good starting position just a decade ago.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Enough of all that gloom and doom stuff. Let's talk about important things...like how much do you think the Conservatives are going to offer for our votes ?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> Enough of all that gloom and doom stuff. Let's talk about important things...like how much do you think the Conservatives are going to offer for our votes ?


Are you saying you can be bought?

ltr


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Are you saying you can be bought?
> 
> ltr


Trudeau already bought him with $500 of OAS LOL


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

damian13ster said:


> So high? You mean over last year?
> 
> Comparison of tsx with other indices:
> 
> ...


Yes, TSX at an all time high I believe.

Using your esteemed source of data, taxtips, and using the last 20 years as a timeframe (as long as I have been actively DIY investing in the markets), I find the following average annual returns:

*Gold Medal* - USA (S&P500 in C$) 6.6%
*Silver Meda**l* - CANADA (TSX Composite) 6.2%
*Bronze Medal* - JAPAN (Nikkei in C$) 4.6%
4th Place - European markets in C$ 4%

Our soccer girls beat out the USA, but here we still got a close second.

Looks pretty good to me. I have virtually zero directly in US stocks, yet portfolio has performed quite well. As the data you kindly provided shows, this is what would have been expected 

BTW, anyone can mine data to prove a desired outcome 😁 But even over 5 years, TSX Comp had an average return of 9.3% in a period when inflation average 1.7%. Pretty good Real Returns. T

Canada is doing just fine. Just happy to have ended up here.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Trudeau already bought him with $500 of OAS LOL


I don't get it.......just the wife and she won't share.

By the way......she got a letter on it. Payout is next week and anyone who is 75 by July 2022 will get it. It will be taxable income.

I am just waiting to see if the Conservatives are going to offer voters anything or just depend on Erin O"Toole's good looks and charm to win.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

agent99 said:


> Yes, TSX at an all time high I believe.
> 
> Using your esteemed source of data, taxtips, and using the last 20 years as a timeframe (as long as I have been actively DIY investing in the markets), I find the following average annual returns:
> 
> ...


Why do you use 20 years? I said Canada was in a very good shape in early 2010s.
5 year would be much more appropriate comparison if you want to see effect of terrible financial management in recent years in Canada


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Do politicians really "buy" votes ?

Let's not be naive.

Everybody votes according to what affects their daily lives.

Would home owners vote for a party that pledged to tax all capital gains on their homes at the marginal rates ?

I doubt it.......even if it was necessary to keep Canada afloat.


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

damian13ster said:


> Why do you use 20 years? I said Canada was in a very good shape in early 2010s.
> 5 year would be much more appropriate comparison if you want to see effect of terrible financial management in recent years in Canada


I have been in DIY investing in the market for 20 years. So 20 years, seemed like a reasonable choice for me to see how Canada has done with respect to other markets. Don't you agree that Canada has done just fine over past 20 years despite several setbacks? Even over 5 years at 9.3% (7.6% real)

Use whatever timeframe YOU want to try and prove YOUR point about Canada's economy. But I for one won't be listening. Enough is enough.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

agent99 said:


> I have been in DIY investing in the market for 20 years. So 20 years, seemed like a reasonable choice for me to see how Canada has done with respect to other markets. Don't you agree that Canada has done just fine over past 20 years despite several setbacks?
> 
> Use whatever timeframe YOU want to try and prove YOUR point about Canada's economy. But I for one won't be listening. Enough is enough.


Look at the original post. It is in regard to reckless spending by the current government. This is the thread.
Therefore the reference to timeframe during which the reckless spending the thread was created about has occurred.


Of course, I agree with you that Canada has done very well over last 20 years. It did extremely well during first 12-13 years of that period, and worse than it peers in recent years.
If you want to talk about it though, then create a thread that refers to said timeframe


----------



## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Cross-posting part of Ian's post in another thread;



> Many people simply do not realize how fortunate we are to be born in Canada or live in Canada. That alone gives us an advantage over most of the people in the world.
> 
> There is always room for improvements but the whiners, the bitchers,. the complainers do not realize how good we all have it.
> 
> Alas many of the refugees that come to Canada and immigrants do realize it. That is why so many realize the opportunities afforded to them, work hard, and move forward in a way that some of who are born here do not.


Couldn't agree more Ian!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Cross-posting part of Ian's post in another thread;
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more Ian!


When I was in school in Soviet Union, we were fed with exactly same propoganda (just replace Canada with USSR) LOL
And I bet that North Korea propoganda is using exactly same words


----------



## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> government benefits and subsidies in Canada are pretty modest! Canada wastes a lot of money on different BS "projects" and corruption ... I just cannot understand why Israel (with all tense political situation , spending billions on defense, having less taxes) can pay OAS 4 times more than Canada?! (my mom is getting OAS from both countries, so I can compare)


I know I'm late to this discussion but can you explain? When I look up Israel old age pension and Canada OAS they're remarkably similar amounts when NIS is converted to Canadian $
Canada OAS 626.00 mth
Pension rates - Old Age | ביטוח לאומי (btl.gov.il) NIS `1558 = 606 C$.

Your mother of course being here only 10 years means she's only entitled to 25% of OAS. Is this how you figure Israel pays 4 times more than Canada?


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

agent99 said:


> Cross-posting part of Ian's post in another thread;
> 
> Couldn't agree more Ian!


I was in a family restaurant this week where we go every so often and know one of the servers by name. Shes very cheerfull and outgoing. I engaged her in discussion. She's 27 and came with her parents from the Phillipines 13 years ago. Currently she works full time (40 hours week ) at McDonalds plus 30 hours in the restaurant I was in. I said wow thats a lot she said no it's OK I'm used to it and then she added I did have a third job but just left it recently. She then told me that her husband just came back from the Phillipines after going for a visit (and getting stranded there b/c of c19) and she had to pay $1200 for him to quarantine in a hotel for 3 days!.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Retiredguy said:


> I was in a family restaurant this week where we go every so often and know one of the servers by name. Shes very cheerfull and outgoing. I engaged her in discussion. She's 27 and came with her parents from the Phillipines 13 years ago. Currently she works full time (40 hours week ) at McDonalds plus 30 hours in the restaurant I was in. I said wow thats a lot she said no it's OK I'm used to it and then she added I did have a third job but just left it recently. She then told me that her husband just came back from the Phillipines after going for a visit (and getting stranded there b/c of c19) and she had to pay $1200 for him to quarantine in a hotel for 3 days!.


I have met a number of Filipino ladies here. Working at restaurants, gas station attendant (when we still had them), home care workers, and others. Many of them worked several jobs. They shared accommodation and had little social life. They told me that they worked hard to send money back home where some had children being brought up by grandparents. They saved enough to travel home themselves occasionally. 
Found this article about this this: Filipino Health Care Workers Show the Contribution of Newcomers to Canada


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> I know I'm late to this discussion but can you explain? When I look up Israel old age pension and Canada OAS they're remarkably similar amounts when NIS is converted to Canadian $
> Canada OAS 626.00 mth
> Pension rates - Old Age | ביטוח לאומי (btl.gov.il) NIS `1558 = 606 C$.
> 
> Your mother of course being here only 10 years means she's only entitled to 25% of OAS. Is this how you figure Israel pays 4 times more than Canada?


I explained it in post #86

My point was that Canada's OAS is rather modest comparing to Israel and many other developed countries... If even you assume that OAS in Canada and Israel about the same (and from my calcs even full OAS is much less here than in Canada), *person needs to live in Canada for 40 years to get what in Israeli gets instantly*. Considering the fact that on average there are around 250K immigrants to Canada per year (and I talk only about a legal ones), 10 Millions Canadians (more than 25% of population!) don't get full OAS! No wonder Israel ranked #3 in the World for pensions and Canada is #9


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> I explained it in post #86
> 
> My point was that Canada's OAS is rather modest comparing to Israel and many other developed countries... If even you assume that OAS in Canada and Israel about the same (and from my calcs even full OAS is much less here than in Canada), *person needs to live in Canada for 40 years to get what in Israeli gets instantly*. Considering the fact that on average there are around 250K immigrants to Canada per year (and I talk only about a legal ones), 10 Millions Canadians (more than 25% of population!) don't get full OAS! No wonder Israel ranked #3 in the World for pensions and Canada is #9


Your math is wrong, most of those immigrants are younger and won't collect OAS for decades.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The CPP benefits should also be re-evaluated. The fund has to be in a significant surplus after decades of exceeding their own benchmarks.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Gibor, the Canadian system is far more fair (equitable) to the Canadian taxpayer. One should only ultimately receive proportionately what they are willing to invest into Canada's GDP. The system basically assumes someone at age 25 will put in 40 years of contribution to Canada's GDP via productive work (even if OAS is not work tested). Anyone who puts in less than 40 years of assumed productive work should get proportionately less. Someone immigrating to Canada at age 30 will have 35/40ths OAS when they turn 65.

The folks we want coming here are the 20-40 year olds who we assume will earn income, pay taxes and contribute to Canada's GDP. One could debate whether 40 is the right number or not, but it should be at least 30 in my opinion. We generally do not want anyone immigrating simply to suck from the system and hence the 10 year qualifier before qualifying for OAS socialism. I am very glad Canada has the sense to be more fair to all residents.

The CPP system works in a similar way but allows for some 'opt out' years for child rearing, education, etc. and benefits are tied to 'working' contributions, rather than just being 'present' like OAS. That is also a genuinely fair system because it is contribution based. No free riders as a pension system should actually be.

For someone who supposedly doesn't believe in socialism, your position regarding OAS seems very much at odds with your beliefs. It seems to me very much a case of cherry picking for personal reasons rather than logical, rational ones. I am at a loss as to why you appear to be obsessed with this.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> The CPP benefits should also be re-evaluated.


Currently underway with the CPP enhancement plan coming into play.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Your math is wrong, most of those immigrants are younger and won't collect OAS for decades.


No, it’s not! Because those who came here even 20-30 years ago, won’t get full OAS. When I turn 65 , I will be in Canada for 30 years and my OAS will be 75% of maximum OAS, it will be much much lower than my mom current OAS from Israel, even though she lived there maybe 15 years in total. And there are millions in such situation


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> For someone who supposedly doesn't believe in socialism, your position regarding OAS seems very much at odds with your beliefs. It seems to me very much a case of cherry picking for personal reasons rather than logical, rational ones. I am at a loss as to why you appear to be obsessed with this.


You are mistaken! There is nothing to do with socialism! I lived in both Israel and Canada and can witness that in Canada there is much more socialism and (higher taxes). 
Regarding OAS.... in Canada people who doesn't have enough income , who didn't work enough or at all or who was wasting everything he/she earned or did different schemes as depliting RRSP - will compensate there OAS with GIS to living wage. But people who worked hard and saved money and obviously have income, will get only small OAS and if there OAS+Income = Living wage , they get no any GIS and their pension will be exactly like those who didn't work and gets also GIS. Yhis is pure socialism!
As I said before, the fair system will be if every senior gets base amount (optimal it's living wage) and who had another income like CPP, Investments, DB etc should get it on top.
P.S. By the way, I fully supported Harper's progaram by delaying OAS to 67, as instead he was lowering taxes, doubling TFSA room, introducing family tax split, making Universal child benefit (regardless of parents income) etc.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

My $500 arrived overnight.

Thanks Justin.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> No, it’s not! Because those who came here even 20-30 years ago, won’t get full OAS. When I turn 65 , I will be in Canada for 30 years and my OAS will be 75% of maximum OAS, it will be much much lower than my mom current OAS from Israel, even though she lived there maybe 15 years in total. And there are millions in such situation


I see a lot of immigrants under 25, so they can likely get full OAS.
Plus if you didn't spend your working life in Canada, paying taxes, and you didn't save for your retirement, I don't think the Canadian taxpayer should fund your retirement. 
You move to Canada at 60, you better bring your retirement fund with you, cause I'm not paying it.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Immigrants wanting to change OAS. I have heards about many wanting their mom and dad on the full dole after 10 years. Gibor gets 75% and still complains. Maybe it should be like England where he can contribute to top up?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> You move to Canada at 60, you better bring your retirement fund with you, cause I'm not paying it.


Pocket change compared to free health care.

ltr


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

That Justin Trudeau fella is a man of the people.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes 90-day wait for all.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

kcowan said:


> Maybe it should be like England where he can contribute to top up?


A cousin and her husband emigrated to Australia when in their 70s. There kids were there. I don't know the exact details, but I recall them having to pay 50% (quite a large sum) up front to join the social security system. Then if they decided they didn't like Australia, they could leave and I believe would lose their "deposit". If they decided to stay, they had to pay the second 50%. Just what benefits that bought them, I am not sure.

As I said, I only recall sketchy details, but perhaps this is something like the UK top-up system? 

I can see our generous governments allowing some families to re-unite in Canada, But hopefully this is not totally at expense of existing taxpayers.


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## edip (Jun 3, 2017)

It looks like some emigrant famillies divorce as you can get more pension if you are separated than a couple.. I think a couple gets $28k but 2 individuals can get $18k each ( CPP, OAS and GIS in total).. BTW, I'm an emigrant and I don't think this is fair at all... I understand we need to care about people but many take advantage of the system... Plus the health care, ,right.....


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

DW was born in Alberta and worked in Canada her whole life except for 10 years in Mexico and NY. It was tricky to prove that she had been in Canada. I suppose they finally found her old tax submissions. Probably on microfilm.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I see a lot of immigrants under 25, so they can likely get full OAS.
> Plus if you didn't spend your working life in Canada, paying taxes, and you didn't save for your retirement, I don't think the Canadian taxpayer should fund your retirement.
> You move to Canada at 60, you better bring your retirement fund with you, cause I'm not paying it.


You are wrong! There cannot be "a lot of immigrants under 25", unless they are some kind of pseudo-refugees, but I'm not talking about them ! Do you know how immigration works?! In order to immigrate to Canada independetly , you need to graduate from University (obviously with top speciality) and to work several years at resprected company (for example as my wife who worked at Intel). Majority f immigrants also are doing mandatory military service from 1 to 3 years, so it's practically impossible to get permanent residency here before 25.




> Immigrants wanting to change OAS. I have heards about many wanting their mom and dad on the full dole after 10 years. Gibor gets 75% and still complains. Maybe it should be like England where he can contribute to top up?


 Have no idea ehat is in UK.... but maybe it should be like in Israel where everyone eligible for full pension regardless time they live in the country?! On the other hand, I'd really like to have UK taxes and amazing UK TFSA!
Why I shouldn't complain, if after 30 years paying taxes in Canada, I get only 75% of OAS?! Canada didn't pay 1cent for immigrants education or helath care before they came here! And in case with OAS it's pure discrimnation! 
Some hobo who was born here (and this is his only achievment ) and didn't work 1 day, should get 25% higher OAS that person who came as professional and 30 years paid maximum CPP and taxes?! 
In my case, even though I paid max CPP contribution for 13 years and lived here for 30 years, my combined OAS+CPP will be about the same as my mom's Israeli OAS only (even w/o GOS) who work about 5 years there with minimum wage and lived 15 years.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

edip said:


> It looks like some emigrant famillies divorce as you can get more pension if you are separated than a couple.. I think a couple gets $28k but 2 individuals can get $18k each ( CPP, OAS and GIS in total).. BTW, I'm an emigrant and I don't think this is fair at all... I understand we need to care about people but many take advantage of the system... Plus the health care, ,right.....


If immigrants are doing it, believe me that much more not-immigrants doing the same


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It would be political suicide for any political party to propose full OAS to everyone who stepped into Canada for however long.

Live in Canada for a year and collect full OAS ? I don't think that would go over well with voters.

Many Canadians would say immigrants cost too much and want to close the door on immigration.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> It would be political suicide for any political party to propose full OAS to everyone who stepped into Canada for however long.
> 
> Live in Canada for a year and collect full OAS ? I don't think that would go over well with voters.
> 
> Many Canadians would say immigrants cost too much and want to close the door on immigration.


idk, maybe not after 1 year, maybe after 5 or 10 years, but to live here 40 years to get full OAS (thats already very small) is ridiculous! 
Immigrants (I'm talking about indepndent immigrants, not about refugees) don't cost much , theu bring wealth to Canada. Without immigrants this country won't exist or will be bankrupt by now.
From $$$ point of view, consider professional immigrant who works and pay taxes from day 1 and on whose education and healt cost Canada didn't spend $1 vs misery full OAS! The point here is not about money, but about principle!

P.S. Then why it goes so go with voters to bring here so-called refugees and spend billions on them?!


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> idk, maybe not after 1 year, maybe after 5 or 10 years, but to live here 40 years to get full OAS (thats already very small) is ridiculous!
> Immigrants (I'm talking about indepndent immigrants, not about refugees) don't cost much , theu bring wealth to Canada. Without immigrants this country won't exist or will be bankrupt by now.
> From $$$ point of view, consider professional immigrant who works and pay taxes from day 1 and on whose education and healt cost Canada didn't spend $1 vs misery full OAS! The point here is not about money, but about principle!


No different for Canadian's born here. 
No different than for CPP, where employee and employer have to provide 40 years of work and contribution to get the full CPP. (Yes I know under the new system you may need to work even longer to get the max CPP). 

Seems fair.


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Zipper said:


> I have mine set aside for beer and popcorn.


As promised mine went from $631.71 last month to $716.55 today. And it will be taxable.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

OptsyEagle said:


> It's funny but when you say that it actually seems like a real question. It really illustrates how far we have come when we actually would accept a governing party that does not ever expect to balance the budget. I mean isn't that what governments should be doing. Figuring out what we can afford, from the taxation that a society can pay, and then determining where best to spend that amount of money. It is called a budget and of course it needs to be balanced.


I rememember our last balanced budget. It was brought in by Paul Martin. He cut services until spending matched revenue.

As I recall, he ran for reelection on a balanced budget and good economic times. We ran him out of town after one term.

Stephen Harper came close to balancing a budget but did not. He also inherited a healthy economy that got us through the GFC. Imagine the pain we would be in if we had high debt in 2008? And yet, that is exactly what voters want.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't understand how incentivising not working through gis is a good idea. Gis also disincentivises saving. The $500 OAS one time payment is not the worst idea a government ever came up with.

I also don't believe CPP is run ethically. They have bragged about returns for a long time, although they have under performed the market. Meanwhile, the payout is substantially less than a good investor could earn with the money. I write "good investor" because they are supposed to be good investors and I would expect them to be acting on the interests of their investors.

Money not given to those who earned it is a form of wealth redistribution, which makes it a tax.

This is why I am in favor of keeping government programs to a minimum so less of my money is stripped from me.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The $500 OAS payment was issued months ago and was for the OAS increase for last year that wasn't paid out as the legislation wasn't passed in time.

The current increase is 10% for people 75 and older. 

They also got the normal quarterly cost of living benefit, so that was also added on so it amounted to about 13% or an $80 a month increase for full OAS.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> I don't understand how incentivising not working through gis is a good idea.


That's a stretch... who in their right mind would "not work" for 65 years just to collect a paltry amount of GIS?



> Gis also disincentivises saving.


Of course, but then so does OAS.



> The $500 OAS one time payment is not the worst idea a government ever came up with.


Not the worst, but pretty pointless. Just a vote grab really.


(FWIW, I've always maintained that having both OAS and GIS is dumb. It should just be one payment and only to those who actually need it. Too many well-off people acting entitled to these programs.)


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

nathan79 said:


> (FWIW, I've always maintained that having both OAS and GIS is dumb. It should just be one payment and only to those who actually need it. Too many well-off people acting entitled to these programs.)


I've been on record numerous times that OAS should be a lot more means tested than it is. .Start clawing back at $50k and be completely clawed back at about $70k. OAS is an 'unearned' gravy train. No senior 'family' should have social support at incomes of $70k or more.

I don't mind GIS being separate but it needs to be more robust at the lower income levels simply because <$25k income is not viable for an individual in most Canadian locations.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> I also don't believe CPP is run ethically. They have bragged about returns for a long time, although they have under performed the market.


I don't think they underperformed.

When I looked at CPP returns, the multi-year CAGR appeared to be in the same ballpark as a comparable index-based asset allocation mix. It's hard to do an "apples to apples" comparison due to exposures like Private Equity, which actually hide volatility.

After looking at the numbers, I walked away from that thinking the CPP had a good return. There was some discussion in this other thread:









CPP portfolio performance


The CPP posts various info on their web page. They are roughly 53% equities 23% bonds and credit 13% infrastructure and other real assets 11% real estate They're showing 10.8% annual return over 10 years and 11.0% over the last 5 years. Very impressive. Does anyone know how they performed in...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> I don't think they underperformed.


I share your view, in that they did exceptionally well considering it is an actively managed, balanced, diversified portfolio.

They did under perform the international market in which they are invested, though.

I suppose the important thing is they made some money for CPP investors plus they are holding some back, as well.

As a contractor, I could opt out of CPP and I did. Imagine how much less money I would have now if I had let the government handle it. I know that most people can't handle their own money so that's fair but I'm glad I could bow out. I still have a bit of money in CPP that will end up paying out at a fraction of what a decent investment program would have, sometime when I pass 60.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> As a contractor, I could opt out of CPP and I did.


How did you manage that, Tom? I thought the self-employed had to contribute to CPP (both employee and employer amounts).


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My spouse doe not take OAS. No point since every dime would be clawed back. Not an issue since neither of us view OAS as an entitlement. Nor do we gnash our teeth and bang our heads against a wall because others to get the benefit of full OAS. 

Her CPP, at age 60, had an incredibly short payback (based on her CPP contributions statement) partly because of credit for child rearing years. I was very surprised at the CPP amount she was entitled to.

I get OAS but it would not bother me in the least if all or part of it was clawed back based on resetting the threshold amounts. But on one condition....that those who need it actually get more. Not just GIS but an amount greater that the current combined OAS and GIS cap amount.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Retired Peasant said:


> How did you manage that, Tom? I thought the self-employed had to contribute to CPP (both employee and employer amounts).


You do have to pay into CPP unless your income is very, very low.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I am in agreement with taking the current OAS and GIS pot and re-distributing it to those truly in need. Unfortunately it will never happen since financially comfortable seniors feel entitlement and would punish spineless governments at the ballot box.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> I am in agreement with taking the current OAS and GIS pot and re-distributing it to those truly in need. Unfortunately it will never happen since financially comfortable seniors feel entitlement and would punish spineless governments at the ballot box.


I think they could start with the obvious abusers of the system without getting serious hit at election time.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Retired Peasant said:


> How did you manage that, Tom? I thought the self-employed had to contribute to CPP (both employee and employer amounts).


When you operate a business, you can decide how much to extract as salary and how much as dividend.

It's been quite a few years but I recall my accountant explaining I could pay EI or opt out. Either way, I could never collect. lol!

I totally understand the majority of Canadians benefit from government programs like CPP, OAS. As such, I am happy Canada has these programs but I'm also glad I was able to opt out of CPP for the last part of my career because every dollar you filter through the government comes back as a few pennies. They skim every cent they've ever gotten. Much of the skimming is invisible and people are oblivious because we are desperately disengaged and many of us can't follow basic arithmetic. Sometimes they call it a tax but much of the overhead is literally the overhead of administering these programs. In other words, it's the overhead of having overhead.

If you can live within your means, save about 10% of your income, and do a reasonable job of operating a simple portfolio, you will be set for life with the government only getting in your way. This doesn't seem like too much to ask of an average person but it turns out that it is.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

cainvest said:


> I think they could start with the obvious abusers of the system without getting serious hit at election time.


It is unclear to me how they could start with the 'obvious abusers' of the OAS/GIS system unless they initiated some sort of means test that took into account the value of assets. 

I suspect the cost/benefit of this approach may not be worthwhile either at the polls or from a financial aspect. Monies might be better spent beefing up CRA audit and collections groups, and Crown Prosecution staff who target tax cheaters.

Somehow I doubt that there are a large number of GIS folks who have significant assets. I suspect real estate, ie homes, would not be considered in any equation if only because of the disparity of home values between different areas/cities.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

ian said:


> It is unclear to me how they could start with the 'obvious abusers' of the OAS/GIS system unless they initiated some sort of means test that took into account the value of assets.


Yes, some asset testing would likely be needed and maybe some adjustments to weighing different income. I imagine in the future high TFSA account values could become very common ... will that accounted for?

Been a while but I remember seeing articles on how to "game the system". Would need to dig into that for a clearer picture of what could be done in the future.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm going to go ahead and finish my rant....

I desperately wish government and other citizens would not talk down to people and explain it is too complex for them to understand. If you are new to the site, reading this, and are overwhelmed by how hard it is to manage money, please understand it is not difficult. What is happening is people have created a narratives with all sort of arbitrary complexities, philosophies, and strategies. They lay it on you and it's like walking into an all acronym engineering meeting but 99% of this is utter crap. You can do this. You are not the dumbest person here. Have a look at some successful people (ie: not people in here). Look at a few strategies; they aren't that difficult. Open your mind to the dry world of taxation mechanisms and registered account mechanics. It will be well worth the time invested.

If you put a bit of time into this, your retirement will come far earlier and you will have a multiple of the net worth you would otherwise have had at the end of your career. You will also realize the majority of things being sold to you are designed to make someone else rich, not you. Most of all, you will understand what is happening and feel in control of your life.

It just isn't that difficult. If you don't immediately understand, consider yourself normal. Read, read, read. You will get it but you have to make an effort.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Even more rant...

Let's keep in mind that older people who live in poverty are not necessarily victims. Some of them chose to not engage in productive society. Some of them spent every cent because they could not control their compulsive behaviours (drugs, gambling, spending).

I'm against simple means testing. If a person could work but chose not to, or if they did not save when they had the opportunity, I prefer not to help them beyond keeping them from dying so they can continue to ponder their bad decisions.

Government charity is literally an act of giving away the money of someone else, who works, to someone who might not deserve it.

Giving $500 to someone who has a retirement income of $75K is not a waste of money. Let those people have a couple of nice dinners. It's not like they can take a vacation on that amount.


Consider this.

What if I could force AltaRed to give a friend of mine $250K. I would declare myself good and righteous because AltaRed can afford it and my buddy is going to end up living on OAS, a minuscule amount of CPP, and a full load of GIS. Great! Problem solved! I am a wonderful person! 

But, why does AltaRed have money? He was probably a strong earner, saved money, and managed his finances very well.

What about my friend? I'll bet he made more in his career than AltaRed. This, even if AltaRed was an executive (I seem to recall him saying that he was). My pal used to go skiing in Switzerland for the weekend. He always drove a new car. He had the latest and greatest of everything. He saved $0.

The point is, that was a choice. His choice may have been driven by compulsive behaviour and the ego of wanting to display more wealth than other people but it was absolutely a choice. Nothing was stopping him from driving a car older than 24 months other than his utter distaste at the idea.

Now all of us here are going to carry him. I have sympathy for him and feel bad about his life choices but he has lived an amazing life. His ***** is that his big earning years are over and can no longer afford to live high. Debt has caught up to him. And yet, we look at his balance sheet and say, "This is terrible. This man is struggling to make ends meat, has oppressive debt, and is literally down to his last couple of earning years. Let's give him someone else's money."


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> I'm going to go ahead and finish my rant....
> 
> I desperately wish government and other citizens would not talk down to people and explain it is too complex for them to understand.


Not sure what this rant is about or what you consider "talking down to people". 



TomB16 said:


> If you are new to the site, reading this, and are overwhelmed by how hard it is to manage money, please understand it is not difficult.


It isn't that diffcult however many don't seem to want to put time into mangaing their money or the time to learn the basics.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

cainvest said:


> It isn't that diffcult however many don't seem to want to put time into mangaing their money or the time to learn the basics.


Amen, brother. On this, we completely agree. 

People's lack of engagement does not justify our talking down to people making an effort to understand their financial reality, however.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If nobody does the low paid jobs because they can't earn enough to both live daily and also save for retirement, who is going to do those jobs ?

Hospitality, retail, healthcare, service jobs..........there are lots of jobs that pay barely enough to live, let alone save enough for retirement.

Should every job, regardless of what it is, pay enough earnings to both live and to save ?

Maybe a lot of people don't have interest in investing because they don't have any money to invest.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> Giving $500 to someone who has a retirement income of $75K is not a waste of money.


I'd say it is ... what is the need for someone with an easy living income to receive that extra money? 

Put that money into something else worthwhile.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

sags said:


> Should every job, regardless of what it is, pay enough earnings to both live and to save ?


Please join us in base reality, sags. You have drawn an arrow from "people without money" to "let's give them someone else's money".

In 1984, I was attending university full time, working a part time job, and I saved a bit of money. I didn't save much but it was something.

"Gee, Tom. Wasn't that hard?" Now that you mention it, it kind of was.

You work your butt off, save a bit, and use that money as a weapon in the fight to improve your life. With that money, you go back to school, take a chance on changing jobs because you have a 3 month float, or whatever. Life requires hustle to succeed. Looking at people who are gifted a silver spoon and declaring yourself discriminated against is not the path to success.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are also a lot of people who get permanently injured while working, or have a severe illness that stops them from working.

They all end up on CPP Disability or welfare.......which pays $1100 or $800 a month. How do they save for retirement ?

A lot of people are also struggling just to pay their rent and buy food, on the wages they earn from a full time job.

To simply conclude that people with no retirement funds were lazy or stupid.........doesn't reflect the reality.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

There are many people who do not have pensions of any kind and who struggling just to make ends meet and provide for their families.

It is really easy to glibly say the people should be responsible for their own retirement resources. A little more challenging for those working in low paying factory or service jobs in high COL areas.

For some people, successful money management mean managing staying out of debt, feeding their families, making mortgage payments or rent.

Who am I to make moral judgements on how well people have lived their lives or what financial resources the have or have not been able to attain. It is about the here and the now.

Who is going to say no to someone who needs GIS and make the judgement that it should not be paid because of the applicants past financial ineptitude? Who would even know other than the person requiring GIS assistance?


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

cainvest said:


> I'd say it is ... what is the need for someone with an easy living income to receive that extra money?


It's a shame that a vocal group of people want to turn government into a charity. Isn't it nice that some people can feel good about themselves by forcing all of us to give money to those they feel are in need?

I prefer to incentivize fairness over charity. Our philosophies differ, in this regard.

Take a drive through a subsidized housing neighbourhood. Pay attention to how many cars are less than 2 years old. How many people at the casino can afford to lose the money they are pouring into those VLTs?

I'd far rather put that 500 bones into a skills upgrade program for workers or even a tax cut. Both of those things will help build a strong country and let people succeed on their own.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> Isn't it nice that some people can feel good about themselves by forcing all of us to give money to those they feel are in need?
> 
> I prefer to incentivize fairness over charity. Our philosophies differ, in this regard.


How about give to those that are actually in need?

I guess at the very least, give back to everyone equally instead of a specific group that doesn't need the money?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

We all know that in a community (society) that chooses to provide some safety net to those whose income is below the poverty line that there are freeloaders who, through stupid choices of their own, are where they are at. We, or course, should not support those who had the ability to do something far more productive and worthwhile with their lives, but the 'system' required to filter out the freeloaders likely would cost far more than the irritation and cost of filtering them out.

We also have people who operate in the underground cash economy, those who cheat on their taxes and scammers fleecing the naive and innocent. Unless there is a magic bullet where they can be relatively easily flushed out, and taken out to the back 40 (acres) and shot, I don't have a better solution.

I have learned to live with such abuses if for no other reason than I do not need hardened arteries, high blood pressure and the risk of premature death


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

ian said:


> There are many people who do not have pensions of any kind and who struggling just to make ends meet and provide for their families.


I had a small pension which was commuted 15 years ago. It was 2.51% matched, made comically low returns, and was in a liability condition when I commuted it. I got something like 40% of commuted value when I commuted it and another 12% five years after leaving the pension. It was for 8 years of work, early in my career. It was more than nothing but, suffice to say, it was not a ticket to freedom. lol!

My life hasn't been easy, to say the least. Go ahead and send some money my way.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

TomB16 said:


> When you operate a business, you can decide how much to extract as salary and how much as dividend.


Ah, you were incorporated then. That does make a difference. Sole proprietors don't have that option.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Retired Peasant said:


> Ah, you were incorporated then. That does make a difference. Sole proprietors don't have that option.


For sure.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I have no doubt that there are a minority of people 'gaming' the social welfare and GIS system however I do believe that most would prefer not to be in a position where they need this help.

I also believe that there are an equal or greater number of people (and corporate bodies) , at all income levels, who are 'gaming' our self reporting income tax regime and the GST regime. If not in numbers, more than likely in dollars.

The only question is if the Government is going to spend money on audit and control where should they spend it?

My guess is that they should spend it on the income tax and GST systems. Much more bang for the buck.

It is an easy target for politicians to go after low handing fruit such as welfare and social assistance programs. It make for a splash in the papers. What is better, a few thousand from some unfortunate social assistance scammer of hundreds of thousands or millions from the like of under reporters and/or offshore scammers?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I have trouble believing that so many people are gaming or abusing welfare. First of all, life on welfare isn't exactly great. The amount paid out by these systems is minimal so I doubt many people would plan their lifestyles around the great dream of collecting welfare. It's a minimal existence, barely scraping by.



ian said:


> My guess is that they should spend it on the income tax and GST systems. Much more bang for the buck.


Yes I agree. Canada recently published tax gap findings, looking at the missing tax revenue between what was expected and what was actually paid.

The tax gap with personal taxes is minimal, so it appears that personal filings are generally quite honest. The largest gap was observed in corporate tax filings.

So maybe Canada needs to step up auditing and enforcement of corporate taxes.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

If you want to see a sample of the kind of monies that CRA investigations deal take a look at this:

This only represents a very small number of CRA audit actions and re-assessments/fines...most of which never make to the court.

My guess is that the sum of parts or all of these actions would eclipse by a long shot any dollars recovered from social assistance cheats.







Enforcement notifications: compliance actions - Canada.ca


Provides access to media releases of cases of people, corporations, and trusts convicted in the courts for tax evasion or for failing to file income tax returns.




www.canada.ca


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