# First house - how big?



## reccoso (Dec 16, 2010)

Hello, I'm looking to buy a new house to the West of the GTA in the next 6 months, just for two people. My question is, what's a good size for a young couple's first house, knowing that eventually you would need to upsize or relocate possibly. 

I don't want a big house, just something simple with low maintenance costs and ease of reselling should the need arise.. I was thinking about a townhouse (eg daniels first homes), but some people seem to think it's a bad investment, and it's better to buy a semi-detached one. Any thoughts?

Thanks


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

This is something very personal. I would say is should be no larger than what you can afford on one salary, especially if you're not planning on staying very long. Moving is expensive.

If this place was to be where you raise a family, then it's whole different ball game.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I think it depends on your budget. How much did the bank pre-approve you for?


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

First of all when you buy you need 2 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms to make a resale easier.
I personally hate condos because I would like somewhere to go outside in some kind of yard to barbeque and drink beer.

Having said that if you buy the townhouse you like, you then gain equity and wait for a bad market or correction to move up into something you would really like to own. Sure your townhouse drops in price but the higher priced stuff drops down farther so you can climb up.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

reccoso said:


> Hello, I'm looking to buy a new house to the West of the GTA in the next 6 months, just for two people. My question is, what's a good size for a young couple's first house, knowing that eventually you would need to upsize or relocate possibly.
> 
> I don't want a big house, just something simple with low maintenance costs and ease of reselling should the need arise.. I was thinking about a townhouse (eg daniels first homes), but some people seem to think it's a bad investment, and it's better to buy a semi-detached one. Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks


Too many variables here but if your budget is a townhouse try to buy freehold.


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## reccoso (Dec 16, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> I think it depends on your budget. How much did the bank pre-approve you for?


To be honest, I'm trying to figure out how much I *should* buy. B/c if I bought, what I *could*, it could be a much bigger house. I'm not worried about financing or finances etc, just more worried about doing the right the thing and not making a dumb move. My goal is to pay off whatever I buy within 5-10 years as well. So that makes the mortgate payments that much higher, which is fine (I don't have a tonne of savings, but good income). Realistically, I was thinking of buying something in the 300-400k range max, w/ about a quarter to a third down.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I don't know whether this answer will be helpful, but I live with my husband and our two kids (and 4 pets) in about 1200 square feet, and we are very happy with that amount of space. My husband also works at home most days. 

I'm not into maintaining or heating any more space than that and honestly, we could get by with one fewer room, I think; my kids are always in the same room together at this point. (We'll see when they get older - right now they're both under 10.)


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## reccoso (Dec 16, 2010)

marina628 said:


> Too many variables here but if your budget is a townhouse try to buy freehold.


That's my ideal move, but in the neighbourhood I want to live in, it's freehold onlyl if you buy an existing house, the new ones all have condo fees. I'd prefer a new house, but still open to an existing house.


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## reccoso (Dec 16, 2010)

dogcom said:


> Sure your townhouse drops in price but the higher priced stuff drops down farther so you can climb up.


Thanks for that, I never thought of it that way.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Space compounds at an alarming rate.
Your property taxes are higher.
Heating/cooling bills are higher.
More vacuuming, more clearing, more furnishing, etc.
I agree with the previous poster(s) that you need 2 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms, esp. if you have/plan to have a family and to make re-sale easier at some point.

I don't know how West of GTA is west enough for you, but you won't find bargains until you get well into the Cambridge/Kitchener area and west of it.
Any area with freeway access, GO train access and half decent schools are pricey, even for moderately sized homes (1,200 - 1,500 sq. ft.).


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## canehdianman (Apr 7, 2009)

My fiancée and I (and our yellow lab) live in 1600 sq ft here in Calgary.

It seemed so big when we moved in (from an 800 sq ft apartment), but now we are well on our way to filling it up with junk.

If I could do it again, I'd go a little smaller (1200 or so), just to avoid accumulating junk. We have 2 bedrooms which are NEVER used. waste of space.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

My advice would be to buy at least a 3 bedroom, even if that third bedroom is small.

I had a very tough time selling my 2 bedroom townhome (it had a 3rd room a loft for computer / office space) but most people want 3 bedrooms at the very least.

Heck I had a hard time selling my 3 bedroom place because everyone wanted a 4 bedroom!

Resale is much easier the more rooms you have of course within reason
Townhome - 3bed (1200-1400 sq/ft)
Single - 4 bed (1600-2200 sq/ft)
Single Bungalow (1200-1400) Bungalows can be smaller because of the larger basement


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

If you have the budget I would go with 3 bedroom 1.5 bath two storey detached/link.Easiest to sell and you have option of finishing basement to get extra bedroom and another bathroom for a growing family.These are the homes we buy as investment and I would stick to 1300-1400 sq ft .We just bought our 4th investment property brand new which will close at year end , we looked at the 1180 detached but it came across really Small ,by going with the 1390sq ft model we got an extra bathroom(Jacuzzi tub) upstairs and much larger eat in kitchen.It cost an extra $22000 but definitely in rental /resale market it will pay off.

Additional Note -Off TOPIC 

Everyone is different in what they feel is enough room ,We are a family of four and moved 9 months ago to a 3200 sq ft bungaloft.We are use to 'basement living ' my husband goes down there to watch his TV and we have many family all over the world who come for weeks at a time to stay with us.We can't wait to finish our 1600 sq ft basement project which will then give us 4800 sq .This is our home ,we have a big family and last year 51 people for Christmas Dinner ,there is no way we could live in anything smaller and have our family together as much as we are.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I have always lived in a place that is to little but that sacrifice has really paid off.

In the start I had a 2 bedroom townhouse and waited for a market decline and sold near the end of the bear market. My place was easier to sell because everyone was looking for what they could afford in the bottom rung of the market. I then went after the best location with the most land I could get from a desperate seller. I found it and they were within a month of possibly having to foreclose. The jump in price was only $40,000 at that time.

I still live in the same house today 20 years later and it is still a little small but I live in the best area with a lot everyone now wants. I don't have to worry if my house falls down because my house is only worth $20,000 but my lot is worth $1,000,000. This is the great thing about real estate in that if you look for opportunities and stay away from poor locations you can do very well and I am pretty sure that will work in Ontario as well.


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## Pigzfly (Dec 2, 2010)

When we were looking, just under 2 years ago (2 ppl), I had a minimum of 1000 sq ft. We ended up with 1002. We also ended up in a condo. With a garage, we could live in less space, however our 2nd bedroom is what we refer to as "the warehouse." It houses our toys, with the ww kayaks and off-season truck tires thankfully stored in a relative's shed. We also have a canoe atop lockers in the parkade. Additionally, we rented a storage locker with a friend, which houses 4 bikes during the winter, golf clubs, hockey gear and a small freezer in our half.

We have a 2 bed/2 bath layout, and I am very, very happy to have that second bathroom. Mostly because it allows me to be lazy with all our crap when there are guests around. Plus, there is more storage afforded for things like toilet paper sales and pool towels. 

We are also on the 5 year mortgage payoff plan. We are very glad that we went for a place which cost substantially less than the houses we were originally looking at, mostly because it is so comfortable financially. 

So - all that was for your general info request, hopefully I didn't bore folks with the details.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

well from somebody who lived in a bachelor apartment for three years and slept on floor for two of these years I have definitely done what I had to do in life to get ahead.We bought a waterfront cottage three years ago , actually we bought the land We paid $87,000 for the land and Bought this http://www.northlanderindustries.com/Models/ManufacturedHomes.html to put on it , In the fall the guy next door to us sold his lot with a shack on it for $300,000.We are on a lake with a fully serviced lot.We figure we will keep it 20 years or so and will be part of our retirement plan.Downfall to owning lake property is the $5000+ in property taxes we now pay ,our taxes has increased by $1400 in three years.


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## K-133 (Apr 30, 2010)

> If I could do it again, I'd go a little smaller (1200 or so), just to avoid accumulating junk. We have 2 bedrooms which are NEVER used. waste of space.


Wise words. 

Get a space which suits your lifestyle. If you have extra space, you'll find a way to fill it up with useless things. And in the spirit of this being a financial forum, I encourage to save money, rather than spending it on things which will not bring value to your life.

For myself, 1000-1200 I consider 1000-1200 great for a young couple.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

My first house was a townhouse and I paid about $158k and sold it two years later for $179k. Now its about 15 years later and townhouses in that complex are selling for under $200k so I am very glad I didn't hold onto it.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My semi i bought in 1991 for $160,000 we sold for $190,000 in 2001 and just sold for $287,000 last month.House was built in 1979 and this is brampton ontario.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

We bought the ~1,500 sq. ft. home we now live in when it was just me and my wife. It felt like a mansion initially but since then we've had three kids. We still have enough space but when the kids become teenagers and want their own rooms, we might look for a bigger place. We have a few years to go until then. Buying a smaller place then we could afford turned out to be very good for the bottom line (despite the price increases in the recent past). The mortgage is smaller, the property taxes are lower, as is maintenance, heating and other utilities.


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## kubatron (Jan 17, 2011)

Interesting point you bring up. I hate how in our society, size matters. 1200 square feet should be PLENTY of space in a well-laid out property. 2 bedrooms as well. I live in the Don Mills area, where mcmansions are popping up everywhere. Ruining the whole street facade, but people insist on 4000 sq ft above ground + 1500 in basement, for what? 3 people TOTAL. Pathetic show of excess.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Many have them for extended family or when parents may live with them in future.I have a wheelchair accessible home with a elevator .Excessive no but necessary and I don`t consider 4000 sq ft a mansion lol.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

I'd rather have a big lot than a big house.

It seems that the trend is bigger houses on smaller lots where the front of the house is very close to the road. I like a big front yard to put plenty of space bewteen me and the road so if kids are playing street hockey or whatever I don't hear them. Some older neighborhoods are like this, but all the new subdivisions are too crowded.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

reccoso said:


> Hello, I'm looking to buy a new house to the West of the GTA in the next 6 months, just for two people. My question is, what's a good size for a young couple's first house, knowing that eventually you would need to upsize or relocate possibly.
> 
> I don't want a big house, just something simple with low maintenance costs and ease of reselling should the need arise.. I was thinking about a townhouse (eg daniels first homes), but some people seem to think it's a bad investment, and it's better to buy a semi-detached one. Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks


I'd rethink that strategy. My wife and I grew up in families that bought 1 house. The only people that are guaranteed to make money with the "starter home" mentality are bankers and real estate agents.

Buy a house that you could spend the rest of your days in. Pay off one mortgage, not two or three or four.

My place is roughly 2800 square feet (including finished basement and walk up attic) I think it's a good size for a family of 4 that has inlaws visiting every month. I could get by on far less, but kids and a wife come with a lot of....baggage.

One thing to consider is room size. We live in an old house, and the bathroom is roughly 110 square feet. Same with our laundry room. Our dining room is 200 square feet and the kitchen is about 150. It all sounds great, but you could easily shrink each room by 10-20 percent without really noticing.

The more detached the better. Completely detached is best. Less noise, less problems reselling. On the other hand, with only two outside walls and a roof, heating a townhouse is cheaper.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Yes that is the thing we were shocked about in Kelowna , they were saying the homes were 2-3 million yet you can jump from one roof to another.I see detached homes in the city on 22 ft lots ,there are townhouses on 30+ ft lots build 30 years ago .Also I notice they are building homes three story as well to save on the land.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

It's too bad about the large homes, but unless you custom build these days thats what you'll get unless you buy an older home.

We wanted some land, bought a house on 2 acres, but didn't need more space, but unless we built ourselves we couldn't find what we wanted. So we bought 3200sq/ft for 2 ppl. Way too big but the location and land is what we wanted.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Same here James ,we had our home custom Built.I had additional requirements to make the house wheelchair accessible ,Builders want to cram as many homes as they can into a new project.The Idea of large lots these days is 40x110 .


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> I'd rethink that strategy. My wife and I grew up in families that bought 1 house. The only people that are guaranteed to make money with the "starter home" mentality are bankers and real estate agents.
> 
> Buy a house that you could spend the rest of your days in. Pay off one mortgage, not two or three or four.


+1

Most of the wealthiest people I know have lived in the same home for a very long time (often most of their adult lives) and I don't think that is a coincidence. 

Our first home was a 1600 sq ft end unit freehold townhome. It was a good size and layout, but we were too close to the neighbours behind us. Two of them had pools and there was no peace and quiet all summer. But we like our neighbourhood so when an opportunity arose to move within our area to a larger (approx ~2500 sq ft) detached house with _no_ backyard neighbours we took it. It was a major fixer-upper (5 years on and we are still fixing) but that combined with a marital breakdown got us a great deal. Hopefully we won't move again.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If it is financially feasible, I would recommend buying a home that will suit your future needs as well.

If you don't happen to live in one of the cities on the short list of areas that gain significant yearly increases, you will find that repeatedly buying and selling homes, only benefits the realtors.

If buying and selling homes was the way to riches, we wouldn't have so many people heading into retirement with another 15 years left on their 35 year mortgages.

For most Canadians, having their home value increase and provide them with a million dollar net worth, is a wistful dream.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Selling costs are the largest costs usually. I agree with trying to buy what you can stay with for a long time. However, that may not always be possible. We had a different strategy. We just don't sell. We buy below our means, and save for a larger house. 

Our first place was a 740 sq foot 2 bedroom apartment. There would be no way for us to have our family of 2 kids and a live in nanny live there. When it was time to upgrade, we kept the place as a rental. We saved up for another down payment, and bought our current place. We're considering upgrading again. This time, we may refinance (in order to make our mortgage more deductable), and add that to our savings, and keep our current place as another rental.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

You guys sound like real estate agents "Buy as much as you can afford". 

I agree that moving every 2 years isn't ideal - but look at all the people in the US who bought the "dream home" and ended up moving/getting kicked out anyway?

More debt = more risk. If things work out, you will probably be further ahead because you took on a bigger mortgage. If things don't work out, you will be that much more screwed.


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## reccoso (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies, lots to think about!

And though I agree it's best to buy once and stay in there forever, I think mobility for career reasons was very different 20-30 years ago, and I think most people in their 20s now, would at least buy two homes for various reasons. One a startup while they're trying to figure their careers out, and second once they know they're stable geographically.

After reading the posts, I'm now leaning towards something like a semi-detached perhaps. Where I live, most townhomes start around 315k and peak out around 450k. Semis start around 415k, and fully detached depending on the size go from 500k to above a million. And this is a middle class suburb. So even a semi-detached is big dough!


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I would buy the least house you need. The government is doing lots of stuff to cool the housing market. Later on when you need more, then buy more. 

Having said that...it seems like the standard house that sells well is a 3 bed two bath. 

Two bed houses and one bed houses don't resell well at all.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

If it is a house you want then go for the most land in the best area for as cheap as you can get. So buy something that is livable but will probably be a knockdown. Then down the road if you do sell then no one will care what condition the house is in but will really want your land. Or if you do make some good money then you could rebuild your own dream home on that lot.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> You guys sound like real estate agents "Buy as much as you can afford".
> 
> I agree that moving every 2 years isn't ideal - but look at all the people in the US who bought the "dream home" and ended up moving/getting kicked out anyway?
> 
> More debt = more risk. If things work out, you will probably be further ahead because you took on a bigger mortgage. If things don't work out, you will be that much more screwed.


There is nothing wrong with "buying as much as you can afford" so long as you can actually afford it. 

My point is you have to consider all the costs involved in buying and selling multiple houses in a lifetime. 

If you buy a small home first, and five years later its too small for your needs, you can sell, and get beat on the real estate agent commision, closing costs and moving headaches. Then you have to figure, a smaller house normally appreciates in value more slowly than a larger home. So you should have just bought a larger home in the first place.


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## boba (Feb 3, 2011)

Two person family here ,1700 sqf semi 3 bedroom 2 and 1/2 baths. Almost OK, but 1 of the 3 bedrooms is used as office , and as both my wife and me needs an office, would be nice to have another room for a second one. Also every summer my mother-in-law spends around 2 months with us and another full bathroom and maybe a bedroom would be nice. I'm thinking that my next house should be 2500-3000 sqf with 4 bedrooms 3 1/2 baths and an office/library on the first floor. Seen some good plans on new house building but for now the price is out of my range. I don't see any reason to upgrade to a somwaht bigger detached one in 2000-2200 sqf range which I could afford now. I like the area wher I live now (Oakville), so at least the appreciation of my current house should stay inline with the bigger houses, in the area for when I'm ready to make the jump.


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## Alfred (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi reccoso,
Depends on your family members. Have you thought of flats?
And yes it depends on your budget + loan you can get from bank.


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## mrbizi (Dec 19, 2009)

reccoso said:


> Thanks for all the replies, lots to think about!
> 
> And though I agree it's best to buy once and stay in there forever, I think mobility for career reasons was very different 20-30 years ago, and I think most people in their 20s now, would at least buy two homes for various reasons. One a startup while they're trying to figure their careers out, and second once they know they're stable geographically.
> 
> After reading the posts, I'm now leaning towards something like a semi-detached perhaps. Where I live, most townhomes start around 315k and peak out around 450k. Semis start around 415k, and fully detached depending on the size go from 500k to above a million. And this is a middle class suburb. So even a semi-detached is big dough!


Buying your last home first makes sense - under certain circumstances. It can pay off as others have mentioned as you minimize transaction costs, also you do not need to buy furniture/decors over and over again. The downside is that as you pointed out people are more mobile now for various reasons compared to a generation ago. The other thing too is life happens - illness, family changes, winning a lottery , which might force you to move sooner than you had planned.

The only other thing I wanted to add is children - I'm not sure if you mentioned if you are planning on starting a family soon. Kids may be little, but they come with a truckload of stuff more than you can imagine. So I would factor that in as well.


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## RichmondMan (Jan 31, 2011)

I think that it depends on your investment to the this first house. My advice say about the factor of serviceableness. This factor can save your money.


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## greeny (Jan 31, 2011)

It depends to many important facts. Your budget can say many significant factors of the purchase. The personal lifestyle can be also a positive attestation about your first house. Don´t forget certainly to good advices of realtors in your locality.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

greeny said:


> It depends to many important facts. Your budget can say many significant factors of the purchase. The personal lifestyle can be also a positive attestation about your first house. Don´t forget certainly to good advices of realtors in your locality.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

My first house was one bedroom, my current house has six, there are two of us.

I like the openness and the size, the panorama of windows that present the view of the Blue Mountains.

I love my man cave, the thought of a condo sends chills.

My next house will have two bedrooms, 1.800 sq.ft, we are now in Canada for only six months so time for a change of lifestyle.

the Florida home is 1,400 sq ft, no man cave, we may be buying up, prices are too good to refuse.


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## cosmica76 (Jan 31, 2011)

Hi Recosso, 

I agree with an opinion of your friends that a townhouse is not ideal investment for you. I assume that you´re very young man. From my point of view townhouse is not functional place for two people. Maybe, small house house is much more better variant. It might be better if your first house will be some comfortable flat in the appartment house. This choice is more effectively for young people.


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