# In todays economic climate, go to University or apprentice in a trade?



## Tradesman (Dec 4, 2011)

I am interested in what people's thoughts are on this? 

University vs. Skilled Trade.

Obviously by my username I'm in the "trade" camp. You are paid from day 1 to learn the trade you chose. Most red seal trades are 4 years long to complete much like university. Yearly tuition for most trades (plumber, electrician, carpenter and welder) are roughly $400 a year for the two months you actually spend in a classroom.

At the end of it you write your IP (interprovincial exam) and you start making upwards of $35/hr, full benefits, pension and the big thing is zero debt.

I don't understand why more young people don't gravitate towards this option. When the university road doesn't guarantee employment and you have that huge student debt to deal with. What is the allure of University as oppose to the trades?

Any thoughts?


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Not all degrees or diplomas are equal, at least not when it comes to employment.

http://www.workopolis.com/content/a...y-degrees-with-the-highest-unemployment-rates

In the end, if your chosen field is in demand, you're going to be paid well.

For debt, it may sound cynical, but if your chosen field is not going to pay well, I don't recommend going into debt in order to get that education. At least not if you wish to keep in good financial shape. On the other hand, if there's an high expected return, I don't see any issues with going into debt.

There's nothing wrong with leveraging a bit in order to unlock your human capital.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Tradesman said:


> What is the allure of University as oppose to the trades?
> 
> Any thoughts?


The same reason people buy Mercedes and big houses. Status.

Also, I would never be a tradesman. Why? Cause I hate physical work.

I don't like being hot. I don't like being cold. I don't like being wet. I don't like getting dirty. I don't like moving when I don't have to. I don't like getting cuts and bruises. I don't like being physically tired.

I have worked hard physical labour before and can say that I genuinely hate it.

I love cars, but I could never be a mechanic. I have a friend who is a mechanic, and I don't know how he does it.

Dirty, Sweaty, Burns, Cuts and Scrapes, Chemicals, Heavy Lifting, Tinkering.

No, thank you.

And that's now.... wait till he is 40 years old. Ugh.


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## MoMoney (Apr 1, 2011)

Relevant article,

http://www.theprovince.com/business...ime+finding+enough+workers/5809064/story.html


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Tradesman said:


> University vs. Skilled Trade.
> 
> (plumber, electrician, carpenter and welder)


The big thing that you are probably missing is that even if you count all the university grads and college grads that come out of school, every year, it doesn't even come close to how many people that could step up to the occupations you listed above. Most of those things, I have taught myself while simply watching others. If I ever needed a job, I would imagine I could take your course and be competing with you on price, in 2 months.

I don't think I could say the same thing about being a chemist or a lawyer or an MBA business grad. That is where the difference lies and in the right endeavours adds up to a lot more then $35 per hour.

Now, the real question is. Why are all those people that are currently out of work, that just found the time to gut and renovate their bathroom, not doing what you suggest? That I don't know.


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

This isnt debatable. If there is one thing that ALL economists agree on its the economic value of education. 

The more you have the more you make. Period. And the benefits have only increased over time. 

Here is nice summary

Key points;

•Individual earnings are strongly related to educational attainment. People who have 
completed high school earn more than those who have not; people with a bachelor’s degree 
earn more than those with only a high school diploma; and those with a graduate education 
earn more than those with only an undergraduate education. 

• Average annual earnings of individuals with a bachelor’s degree are more than 75 percent 
higher than the earnings of high school graduates. These additional earnings sum to over $1 
million over a lifetime. 

• The differential in earnings based on educational attainment has increased over time. For 
example, for full-time male workers between the ages of 35 and 44, the earnings premium
associated with having a bachelor’s degree versus a high school diploma has risen from 38 
percent in the 1980-84 period to 94 percent in 2000-03. 

• The benefits to an individual from a university education vary with the quality of the 
institution attended. Those who graduate from an elite university earn substantially more than 
those who graduate from a lower-quality institution. 

• To properly assess the economic value of a college education, the benefits realized in terms 
of higher future earnings must be discounted to adjust for the time value of money. The 
discounted earnings must then be weighed against the full costs of acquiring a college 
education including not only the tuition paid by the student, but the earnings foregone while 
the student is in college and the appropriations of state and local governments. When these 
calculations are made, the benefits of a college education are seen to be more than three 
times as large as the costs. 

• If the value of a college education is expressed on the same basis as the return on a financial 
investment, the net return is on the order of 12 percent per year, over and above inflation. 
This compares favorably with annual returns on stocks that historically have averaged 7 
percent. 
• Despite the very high return on investment for the time and money spent on attaining a 
college degree, only one-quarter of the U.S. adult population has at least a bachelor’s degree. 
Academic ability and information barriers limit the number of individuals who attain a 
university degree. 

• Financial barriers to the completion of a bachelor’s degree exist but government programs 
that promote access have been effective. 

• The academic ability of the individual — which is shaped throughout his/her life by a variety 
of family and environmental factors — and the values and goals of the individual — which 
are strongly influenced by the education of his/her parents — are important determinants of 
educational attainment.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I imagine that economist's study was probably paid for by some university or other party with an interest to lure people into universities since they're big business these days....while I don't doubt some university courses will lead to well paying jobs, I know many trades ppl that out do university educated folk in yearly earnings. A licensed trades person is an educated individual only most of their education comes from hands on work which is probably a quicker way to learn.


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

DanFo said:


> I imagine that economist's study was probably paid for by some university or other party with an interest to lure people into universities since they're big business these days....while I don't doubt some university courses will lead to well paying jobs, I know many trades ppl that out do university educated folk in yearly earnings. A licensed trades person is an educated individual only most of their education comes from hands on work which is probably a quicker way to learn.


It's not just one study. It's all studies which show the conclusion. It's simple fact the more education you have the more you earn on average. It's been tested in hundreds of studies and the conclusion is always the same.

You are confusing science with anecdote.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't think this question could be answered in a vacuum. You need to consider the particular person. If the person is like Kae, who is academically inclined and disinclined toward physical labour and uncomfortable work environments, then University is the way to go. If someone does not enjoy academic learning and enjoys working with their hands then the trades are a good bet. For someone who enjoys both, then it is a matter of choice (and I think such a person could go far in the trades). It also comes down to the area you are interested in studying. Whatever you do, don't get a BA in psychology, Fine Arts or Literature if you care about being employed in your field and earning a decent income.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I chose the trades path when I was 17. I owned my own home while many of my friends had not yet gained a degree.
I owned my own business before any of them finished their Masters.
I retired at 52...most of my friends are so far in debt they will need to work till they are 80 even though they earn 6 figure incomes.

If you want to show up each day at the construction site or cubicle 8 hours a day for a pay check the end result will be the same ...no where.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm with Clovis pn this one. i worked a number of "trade" type jobs before I decided to get serious about university. Education was the best thing I ever did, despite active discouragement from my "tradesman" father. Obviously, higher education isn't for everyone and a trade that's in demand is a reasonable alternative for many. Keep in mind though that there may be other less desireable aspects to a trade- like unions, restrictive work rules, poor working environment, boom and bust cycles,etc


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

I went to university with the full intention of joining the well educated, debt ridden masses... spent 2 years there trying to stay awake during lectures. Didn't return for my third year, became full time at a construction company I used to work for during the summer to pay for university. Didn't make great money as a lowly labourer for a few years - and the work was backbreaking - but I developed a strong work ethic and strong body and slowly worked up the company ladder, with a steady increase in pay. I am now a foreman, and although the work is still often physically taxing, I find myself on the end of a shovel much less often - my income is good, nice perks (company vehicle with gas card, healthy DB pension, yearly bonus).

Not sure what would have happened if I had remained at university.... but I am glad I chose the path I did. My wife and I are staring financial independance square in the face... and we are still on the good side of 40.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

andrewf said:


> I don't think this question could be answered in a vacuum. You need to consider the particular person. If the person is like Kae, who is academically inclined and disinclined toward physical labour and uncomfortable work environments, then University is the way to go. If someone does not enjoy academic learning and enjoys working with their hands then the trades are a good bet. For someone who enjoys both, then it is a matter of choice (and I think such a person could go far in the trades). It also comes down to the area you are interested in studying. Whatever you do, don't get a BA in psychology, Fine Arts or Literature if you care about being employed in your field and earning a decent income.


+1

Andrew you save me from composing replies on many of these threads as your comments often mirror my thoughts.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Eder said:


> I chose the trades path when I was 17. I owned my own home while many of my friends had not yet gained a degree.
> I owned my own business before any of them finished their Masters.
> I retired at 52...most of my friends are so far in debt they will need to work till they are 80 even though they earn 6 figure incomes.


Surely not all your employees were able to do the same. These debates are silly because they are riddled with anecdote, like the "Kids expect to earn 90k/yr" thread.

No one suggests that going the route of the trades is not a good way to make money, but is everyone able to do it. If all the people who went to University suddenly decided to enter the trades, would they all become rich? On average, would they become wealthier than those that did not.

For every business owner, surely there are those in the same trade who are doing much much worse.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Hard work is hard work if your educated or non educated and if your willing to work hard and do what you got to in any line from a plumber to a surgeon 9/10 you will usually turn out ok.

Alot of life has luck or "fate" you fall into things,get good breaks,meet the right people,i know a few people who didnt push hard or fret over a future things just fell into place and success came almost by fluke.

There is the "lucky sperm club also" ie:sons of fathers that built up large private businesses with a sturcture in place and take over a well oiled machine.

Luck-chance-circumstances-fate-god-whatever you call it some people have a wind @ there back more than others....there is that element.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

clovis8 said:


> It's not just one study. It's all studies which show the conclusion. It's simple fact the more education you have the more you earn on average. It's been tested in hundreds of studies and the conclusion is always the same.


I think this argument is a little simplistic. I am wary of population-level arguments which are then particularized to the individual. 

We know that *on average* people with university educations earn more than people with (only) high-school diplomas. But that doesn't mean that every person with a university degree with out-earn every other person with only a high-school diploma (and I'm not sure the tradesperson even got included in this argument anywhere...)

Nor does it mean that taking out a student loan for $60K to study modern dance or a loan of $100K+ for a PhD in art history is rational and will lead to higher total lifetime earnings. 

Here's an interesting (to me!) Wall Street Journal article on this topic: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704904604575262712612181000.html

Another wrinkle - as AndrewF alluded - is that it makes sense to look at a larger context. Increasing investments in human capital have implications elsewhere in the human lifecycle. 

If you compare (for example) 35-year-olds of today with 35-year-olds of my parents' generation (my parents were married in 1959), today's 35-year-olds have a greater investment in their human capital (they left school later and spent more time in formal schooling) but they have lower cumulative wealth at 35. 

Coupled with the rising costs of housing in many Canadian urban centres, together with a rising maternal age, and you have 35-year-olds who are fully a decade behind where their parents were at the same age: they are "behind" in purchasing a home, paying it down, raising children and in building wealth. Increasing investments in human capital are just a part of the picture here but the overall picture is of a generation of more highly-educated, but less wealthy 35-year-olds, who also will be impeded in their capacity to build wealth compared to previous generations (mostly the inter-war period and the decades that followed). 

I'm rambling at this point, but my main point is that it is difficult to compare one factor to another in isolation. Even if university graduates on average earn more than high school graduates, they are not necessarily any better off - because other goalposts have moved.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Either path in the road is fine, so much about the world of work has changed in the last 40 years, rules, regulations.
The true cost of happiness depends on many parts, earning power alone is likely not high on the list.
Those that seek higher education may be looking to make some difference in the world that requires a degree, maybe they seek to shape the future.

The trade guy may be really happy with the way the world is and just try to make the most of it.

Nothing worse than doing something for your life that someone else decided.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

The university vs high school diploma argument is a bit of a red herring. Those high school people include presumably lots of people working retail, telemarketing, etc, which are very low paying jobs. That's not to say there's nobody with a university degree doing those jobs, but the percentage is lower. The question for this thread is university vs trades, not university vs high school.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ Agrred. There are at least 3 buckets relevant to this discussion:

-Post-secondary educated
-high-school skilled labour
-unskilled labour (with or without high school)

Lumping the last two together skews the comparison.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Sampson said:


> Surely not all your employees were able to do the same. These debates are silly because they are riddled with anecdote, like the "Kids expect to earn 90k/yr" thread.


When you quoted me you left out the only important part

"If you want to show up each day at the construction site or cubicle 8 hours a day for a pay check the end result will be the same ...no where. "

Of course most of my employees were not able to do the same...they are happy with pay checks and bonuses. My business was bought out by employees though (1 civil engineer and 2 journeymen)...those 3 were not content to coast...and in 20 years they'll be able to join me for afternoon beers.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

For my trade, the post-secondary vs. apprenticeship debate doesn't apply. You need one before the other. 
Even though the employers are desperate for people, they won't take an apprentice unless they have post-secondary. 
A college certificate or diploma is required before you will be offered an apprenticeship. These businesses want to see you invest in yourself and bring some education to the table before they will invest in training you further.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Eder said:


> When you quoted me you left out the only important part


I realized, so I was a little reluctant to post (I apologize for the partial misrepresentation ), but I would have tried to make the same point regardless.

In fact, while I see the merits of University education, Trades and any other field that is booming should heavily be considered by people at a junction point, I see that everyday here in Alberta, if people enjoy it AND they can make a good living doing it, then not only should they consider it, but schools (high schools) should really help students explore these possibilities.


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## Tradesman (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I always like to hear what other people think about this.

A few things I wanted to comment on.

"Also, I would never be a tradesman. Why? Cause I hate physical work."

That's quite a common complaint about trades. There's no way I can say it isn't physical. I'm an electrician and it is a middle of the row "physical" trade in my opinion. But is really it not as hard on your body as what I think is commonly believed. Personally the first 18months were hard. After that you are out of the dungeon so to speak and move up the ladder quickly. The longer you are in the trade it becomes a lot less physical and more mental. When I was working in the construction side of things I was a "lead hand" and planned out the work for other people to do. I'd go days without even lifting a tool.

"If I ever needed a job, I would imagine I could take your course and be competing with you on price, in 2 months."

Well you can't take the course unless you have the hours on the job. You need 7200 hrs total before you are licensed in any red seal trade. Much like any university course, you need that piece of paper before you can command the Journeyman wage.

But yeah I agree with what a few people are saying here, it depends on the person. I just found the idea of learning a skill set that would command a large income all the while accumulating no 'student' debt was very appealing to me. I figured if I didn't like it and wanted to change I wouldn't be out any cash, just my time.

I did the cubicle thing for 6 years. Worked my way up to be a department head at a college. I just couldn't stand sitting there looking at that computer screen anymore. I didn't feel any satisfaction at the end of the day. When you are in a trade I can look at a building every time I drive by it and feel that satisfaction that I had a hand in its construction. It works for me.

Got my ticket in 4 years. Got out of construction and crazy as it may sound I now work at a University, in the maintenance department.


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> I think this argument is a little simplistic. I am wary of population-level arguments which are then particularized to the individual.
> 
> We know that *on average* people with university educations earn more than people with (only) high-school diplomas. But that doesn't mean that every person with a university degree with out-earn every other person with only a high-school diploma (and I'm not sure the tradesperson even got included in this argument anywhere...)
> 
> ...


Of course no sane person would argue that everyone should automatically go to university. There are lots of people who can, and will, have a great life and make good money never going. 

My point is purely economic and in the context of the question about this financial climate, as if somehow the current downswing negates the laws of economics. 

If you had a random teenager who was choosing in a vacuum if they should are should not got to university the answer is as easy as they come. 

Not only is education a good investment, study after study shows that it is literally the best ROI one can expect from any kind of investment. Sure some PhDs will end up driving a cab but that is like arguing nobody should invest in the stock market because some people lose money. 

If you invest in the market over the long run you win. If you get more education, in the long run, you win.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

There are many factors to consider. I think it really depends on your personality and what you enjoy. In terms of earning potential, I think if you look at the 'trades' version (college) vs the University version, there is a much higher potential in the University version in the long term.

Examples are:
P. Eng vs. Engineering Technologist
Computer degree vs. computer diploma
RN vs. LPN
CA/CMA vs Accounting diploma

There are many other examples, but generally the ones I listed above the person with the degree will make a lot more over time than the one without.

For me, if looking for earning potential of education I would rank it the following:

Professional Designation or PRACTICAL graduate degree - law, medicine, business, etc
Practical undergrad - engineering, nursing, teaching, business, etc
Trades 
Other Degrees - social sciences, arts, etc.

This is just me. I think trades are great for some, I wish I was handier, but I do think there is more of a risk of physical injury and unable to work in a trade than in an office job.


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> There are many factors to consider. I think it really depends on your personality and what you enjoy. In terms of earning potential, I think if you look at the 'trades' version (college) vs the University version, there is a much higher potential in the University version in the long term.
> 
> Examples are:
> P. Eng vs. Engineering Technologist
> ...


In fact Trades fall below both college and university and are just above High School in terms of lifetime earning potential.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I read that China is eliminating many of the fields of study from University that don't lead to employment.

Perhaps our Universitites need to do the same.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

Tradesman said:


> I was a "lead hand" and planned out the work for other people to do. I'd go days without even lifting a tool.


same here- I have been teaching in my trade for 16 years. I still twist wrenches occasionally, but only because I enjoy it. 


Tradesman said:


> You need 7200 hrs total before you are licensed in any red seal trade. Much like any university course, you need that piece of paper before you can command the Journeyman wage.


Not all trades require time like that. My red seal trade has a competency book - once it is filled out by the employer, you can challenge the C of Q test. No minimum hours. 
And journeyman wage can be paid to anyone. I was making top rate as an apprentice. I also completed my apprenticeship in 2 years. 
Every trade is a little different.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

clovis8 said:


> In fact Trades fall below both college and university and are just above High School in terms of lifetime earning potential.


This is just my example, but my sister graduated law school in 1986, the same year I began my apprenticeship. 
Not that we've compared line by line, but we have had very similar incomes since starting our careers.
I have a pension and less job related stress. 
I think I have more fun at work too.


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

hystat said:


> This is just my example, but my sister graduated law school in 1986, the same year I began my apprenticeship.
> Not that we've compared line by line, but we have had very similar incomes since starting our careers.
> I have a pension and less job related stress.
> I think I have more fun at work too.


Again, of course there are lots of examples where trades people make more than people with degrees but you dont make an argument by using the exception to the rule. All the available data makes it totally clear that a trades person will make less than a person with a degree as a rule. 

This is not a slight on trades people. The world needs trades people and there is nothing inherently "better" about going to college over going to trade school. The question is simply which once is likely to make more money in their life. 

The thread topic was suggesting that in today economic climate it might be better to be a trade person when in fact the exact opposite is true. The North American economy is moving away from trades and into a job market based on knowledge professions.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Hi:

Number one consideration, you must do something that has meaning for you. Life is too short to be wealthy if also miserable in your vocation.

I eventually went the university route because I had the smarts. I got an engineering degree at age 29. What I don't have is great patience to suffer fools. Contrary to popular myth, engineering is a very social profession. You have bosses and co-workers and clients. A fair number are fools.

I tell people I am the son of a Ph.D in Physics and the grandson of a bricklayer. My disposition is more toward the bricklayer. I think an advantage of some trades would be the absence of others to muck things up. As a bricklayer, you might have to deal with the building inspector and the client occasionally, but there might be blissful days, perhaps to dream, weeks when you could do your thing unencumbered by someone else.

So I got the h*ll out of software and retired at 39. I am occasionally spotted setting rocks and laying concrete for small building foundations. Now when it comes to software I am like Shultz of Hogan's Heros: " I know nothing, NOTHING".

hboy43


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> I read that China is eliminating many of the fields of study from University that don't lead to employment.
> 
> Perhaps our Universitites need to do the same.


I think that would be a shame. University is not just a factory for knowledge workers. They are also research centres.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Number one consideration, you must do something that has meaning for you.


yes, but what has meaning to 17 year old students trying to design a life path?
It is tough.
I think as a society, we do a very poor job of exposing kids to the world of work.
They know what their parents do... they know what high school teachers do...then....nothing. 

"Take your kids to work day" is probably the best-worst example. I remember one place I worked, they gathered all these grade 9's in a big room with pizza, went on tours of the facility etc...
Well, that ain't what mommy and daddy do all day. 
If dad spends the entire day reconciling accounts in excel, then the kid should see that. If mom is in HR, and spends the day laying people off, the kids should see that too. 

I remember picking my career..... I took that catalog of college courses and picked one. I didn't know what the job prospects were really. 

3 years into my career, I thought about abandoning it. I'm glad I didn't. I was just too immature to know what I wanted.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

clovis8 said:


> The North American economy is moving away from trades and into a job market based on knowledge professions.


Except you can't outsource trades to another country, but you can sure outsource knowledge professions. Work that I used to do here in Canada (IT development) is now being done by people in India for much less $ to my company. I am thinking more and more that the best jobs for the long term are the ones where they really need the person on the ground.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Spudd said:


> Except you can't outsource trades to another country, but you can sure outsource knowledge professions.


Exactly - I think clovis is thinking of manufacturing rather than trades.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Managing off-shored work is often more expensive than companies realise. The advantage of having the employees closer to customer often outweighs a wage differential (particularly one that is disappearing fast). Companies also seem to forget that it is much harder to rebuild a capability than it is the disband it. If in 10 years the economics of outsourcing shift the balance back to doing the work in-house, it might be much costlier to rebuild that team.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> *Managing off-shored work is often more expensive than companies realise. *The advantage of having the employees closer to customer often outweighs a wage differential (particularly one that is disappearing fast). Companies also seem to forget that it is much harder to rebuild a capability than it is the disband it. If in 10 years the economics of outsourcing shift the balance back to doing the work in-house, it might be much costlier to rebuild that team.


You got that right!

Other problems are:

1) The "cheap" labour can become not-so-cheap labour if too many companies outsource in that area.

2) Currency changes - A company outsourcing to say Canada 10-15 years ago would have seen a large increase in labour costs due solely to currency changes.


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

These days things are changing so fast who really knows. I'm a proponent of the "End of Work" theory postulated by Rifkin where he "contended that worldwide unemployment would increase as information technology eliminates tens of millions of jobs in the manufacturing, agricultural and service sectors. " ... so sooner or later, we're all screwed as eventually AI and automation in every facet of our lives will take over.

I am an engineer, the son of computer systems analyst, the grandson of an illiterate goat herder .... think he was the happiest one of us all.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Not only that, but there are higher costs in managing someone who is remote. You might still have managers here who have to fly out regularly (and will demand higher wages for the travel inconvenience) or you will have your own people on location at the outsourcer with a decent wage premium. And then there are the legal and service level enforcement costs... I think many CBAs forget some less obvious costs involved.


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## Tradesman (Dec 4, 2011)

"In fact Trades fall below both college and university and are just above High School in terms of lifetime earning potential."

Clovis, i have no idea where that chart came from. I can't see a link to know if it is Canada, states, a specific province, etc.

All I can say is that is WAY off. When that chart says 'trades' I will assume it is encompassing all designated trades. In Sask there are approx 50 designated trades, professions like hairstylists, locksmith and meat cutter are among them. My original post was referring to the construction trades. Electrician, welder, HVAC, plumber and pipefitter. Those are what I meant, my fault for not being specific.

So the chart and your statement I believe are not accurate to what my initial question/statement were meant to convey. Since the the trades I'm thinking of take 4 years to complete (like an undergraduate degree) all pay over 70000 a year (in my province). So my original post was looking for thoughts on the best financial plan for an 18 year old higschool graduate who was looking to either pursue a 4 year undergraduate or a 4 year construction trade path. 

"The North American economy is moving away from trades and into a job market based on knowledge professions. "

I can't disagree with this more. I hear on a weekly basis of a "skilled labor shortage" and companies who can't find enough people to fill these positions. If anything we need a lot more. North Americans are not moving away from electricity, running water and heated homes.  Perhaps you are thinking of manufacturing jobs.

"I am thinking more and more that the best jobs for the long term are the ones where they really need the person on the ground. "

I agree with that Spudd. My past profession had a lot of outsourcing and undercutting being done. Personally I feel more secure knowing that my line of work can't be done by someone from another country or province. You have to be here to get the work done.

Lots of great opinions. This is a great site, thanks for all the responses. Either way no matter what you chose it has to make you happy.


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## praire_guy (Sep 8, 2011)

Nothing wrong with education or trades. What ever floats your boat. 

You can make good money in the trades. Just try to hire a plumber, electrician, etc now a days. 

There will be an even greater shortage as today's "kids" don't want to "work". 

They want the sit down academic type jobs. 

My dad always use to tell me " a man will never starve working with his hands" 

Heck even my doctor quipped at my last appointment " should have been a plumber" after telling me about how much his bill was.


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

I think it's a bit difficult to project into the future based on present economic demands. The combined inputs of increasing numbers of people going into a career/trade because they hear that there's demand in that area plus technological innovations which may render a skill set obsolete before you know it or so crowded that there's now a surplus, and contracts go to the lowest cost provider. It doesn't matter if it is knowledge work or physical work - everything is subject to change.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think it's a good idea for someone in the trades to take some college business courses like management and financial accounting. A lot of small businesspeople who end up doing a lot of management themselves could benefit from a better understanding of these concepts.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

hystat said:


> yes, but what has meaning to 17 year old students trying to design a life path?
> It is tough.
> I think as a society, we do a very poor job of exposing kids to the world of work.
> They know what their parents do... they know what high school teachers do...then....nothing.


This is a very good point. Many would benefit from a few years in between high school and advanced education to try out a few things and learn about themselves.

hboy43


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Andrew you got that right!Im confronted with skills i have to learn in order to be successful.Im in transistion right now moving off the tools and trying to learn all the basic skills required to give me the best shot at trying to grow a small shop into a bigger outfit.(i actually have no choice because my main prime contractor is growing so fast im "pinched" and its uncomfortable because up intill now im flying by the seat of my pants and learning business 101)

I would give my left arm to a have a better grasp on things like-basic accounting,mangement,problem solving,critical thinking,organizing systems,communication skills,writing skills and all.

You get to a stage where in "trades" you get opportunities but you under-estitmate all the stuff thats required,knowing how to turn a wrench is the least of things....Your dealing with safety regulations and audits which is a hell of a challenge(record keeping is a nightmare)I could write a book on the vast things it takes and is reqired...Alot of people think so and so is in the "trades" look how much money he makes...but they fail to realize the trades part is the smallest part....If you want and try to advance past a topped out hourly wage for your trades.Most of us are not schooled with a mba mindset that it takes to build a business from a 1 man show to say a 20 person operation,or running a team of people in a growing private construction company.There is alot of moving parts and its tough.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

And not only that the most important part-salesmanship and selling skills,estimating,client realtions,supplier realations,warranties in work performed,learning how best to put excess money into play,trying to forecast future work and dealing with ill be honest-lower end employees who have vast problems but there the only people that can amd will fill "labour jobs".

Alot of trades guys start off as "mom & pop" operations.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't really view it as an either/or equation. I work a white collar gig with low salary potential. 

Working within the "a penny saved is a penny earned" line of thinking, I've learned plumbing, electrical, construction and car repair. Short of an addition or construction, most jobs around the house are small, and can be handled with a little knowledge. Did exhaust on a car for a coworker two weekends ago, u-joints for another this weekend. Midway through a complete reno of the kids playroom, drywall, flooring and pot lights. Installed all my own windows in the house, installed a gas fireplace last winter, renovated the basement starting with a complete demo down to the concrete walls two years ago.

Granted, I'm pretty awesome  but I've saved money hand over fist doing it myself. 

There are two ways to get ahead, make lots of money to pay people to do things, or learn how to do it yourself.

Back on topic though, it comes right down to the person. I wish I had know how much I would enjoy a trade, I would have picked one up coming out of school. But coming out of high school, I didn't think I liked working with my hands.


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## celishave (May 8, 2010)

Haven't read any responses yet - personally i decided to go the white collar route even though my dad was a welder. I saw how it was either feast or famine for him in the 80's and 90's. The market tends to always balance out even though it now seems as though there will be an endless amount of jobs for tradesmen out there. Things change and if labor gets too expensive or tight projects can be shelved. Once things grind to a halt what does a welder, pipefitter, etc have as options. Any office job would basically be out of the question without re-training and another blue collar job would have 100 guys going after the same job. One thing I do envy about the trades is that you can work as much or as little as you want. If you want a few months off, no problem - try doing that in a desk job and you will be blackballed as not being committed.


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