# USA snowbirding



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I am starting this thread to elicit opinions on the desirability of 'snowbirding' in the USA. 

While I can understand someone wanting to spend their winters in a warmer climate, I cannot understand why so many Canadians continue to see the southern USA states as being a good answer to that desire. It's as if the climate is the only criteria being considered. 

I have vacationed in the USA many times including spending several winter months at a time there during my life and find much to like there obviously in terms of vacation interests. I am by no means a 'USA basher'. However, I no longer feel the same way about the USA as I did in the past and it is not just down to Trump who I see more as a 'sign of the times' than as the cause of the issues the USA is currently facing. I will no longer consider vacationing in the USA at all.

All my life, I have perceived the USA and it's citizens as much like myself in pretty much all regards. Nice people in general, friendly, outgoing, welcoming, etc. Those people of course still exist but at the same time, the kind of people I do not want to know seem to have been on the rise and the differences in our two cultures have widened. Yet I think most Canadians perhaps continue to hold the beliefs that we are much the same even though the differences are in fact getting greater.

In the last couple of years (post-Trump), tourism to the USA has declined with the exception of Canadian visitors which has risen by 4.8% in 2017. Overall, international tourism rose by 7% in 2017 but fell by 3.8% in the USA. Is there something other nationalities are seeing in regards to visiting the USA that Canadians are not? Do Canadians just not care about anything other than the ease of just being able to drive their car over the border and head south to warmer weather?
https://nationalpost.com/news/world...e-us-under-trump-canadians-didnt-get-the-memo

I could understand if say the dollar exchange was in our favour. That has long been a factor that Canadians consider when looking at heading south of the border. But our dollar is not strong against the US dollar right now. https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CAD&view=10Y

Insurance is another factor people consider when visiting another country. Yet travel medical insurance which all snowbirds need to have, cost more if you go to the USA than to any other country in the world that I am aware of and is not at war at the time.

Another factor that should be of concern and especially for a snowbirder who plans to spend up to 5 months in a country, is crime. Murder is 3 times the rate per capita in the USA vs. Canada and rape 16 times more per capita.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime

Those are just a few examples of factors that have me wondering what is it that overcomes all the negatives in Canadian's minds?

I would encourage all Canadians who want to 'snowbird' somewhere to avoid winters in Canada, to at least look at other alternatives to the USA.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

for me, as I look out the window at another sh**ty NL day, its:
sunshine!
cheap booze!
large potions in restaurants!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have spent lots of time in Florida but we did not consider it
for post retirement snowbird travel. Or for a second home. Same for AZ, TX, etc. AZ is closer but no ocean.

Lots if reasons for our decision. Could be because we do not live within driving distance of Florida. For us it is a full day of air travel. 

So for us it has been six winters of going elsewhere in the world. This winter it will be Thailand again, then Australia.If we do decide to buy it will, at this jucture, probably be in Puerto Vallarta at some point.

We are just ending a week in Playa Del Carmen and move week to Puerto Morales for a week.Needed a break and want to see if Yucatan is an area we might consider.

But Florida, as a longer snowbird stay for us is simply not in the cards. It is well down on our list. Not because of the crime stats either. They can be misleading.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We know many snowbirds who go to the US. It is mostly weather combined with cheap booze, gas, meals and goods. We have traveled extensively in Florida, Texas, NM, AZ and SoCal.

At the time we retired, there were two big issues:
1) Looming estate taxes upon death. That was resolved in 2010. We retired in 2002. and
2) The cost of living if one decided stay there more than 6 months, healthcare, and IRS.

There was also a factor in the southern states of the people being different. Mostly ******** but even a strong republican bent in SoCal. Florida is not so bad but you still have to be aware if what you decide to buy. We did home swaps in San Diego for many years and stayed for a couple of months in Florida, on both coasts.

Of all the areas, I would try Florida except for the humidity and bugs. We are in San Miguel de Allende right now and it has neither. Sunny dry weather, reminiscent of prairies in the spring. We head to Puerto Vallarta next week to start 6 months. We have Permanent Resident Visas (good for 5 years) that enable us to spend all year here and we would move inland to avoid the worst summer weather. What keeps us in Vancouver is the 3300 sq.ft. penthouse with 180 degree views of the mountains and ocean. Plus pretty good weather.

The expat community is largely Democrat but even the Republicans are somewhat reasonable Trump haters. 
But many have moved permanently because they were uneasy with things back to W days.

We go to Europe every summer for a month and enjoy it. But we would not live there for long periods (too far from kids and grandkids, although one bunch is there right now). SEA is a bit too humid for us. And a long flight.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not retired, but I'll offer some thoughts as someone who's lived in the US for a few years.

Of the various places I've lived (including Canada, Australia, and a couple places in Europe) the USA is undoubtedly higher stress, feels "nuttier", and has scared me more than any other place I've lived in. I think they are having some major problems in their society that are not going away any time soon.

In my experience, the USA is a place of extremes. You get extreme swings between rich and poor areas. Extreme swings between safe and high crime. Extreme swings between liberal and ultra conservative. For example if you're in a wealthy community, everything will look beautiful, the community will be protected by gates and guards, and life seems grand. But hop in the car and drive a bit, and before you know it, you can end up in the most frightening neighbourhood on earth.

This happened to me once in a Florida, on a business trip. East of Orlando, everything seemed fine until I ended up in a random coastal town and stopped at a pizza place. As I walked in, I watched a dozen meth heads turn towards me and start looking me over. In response I immediately walked back out, got in the car, locked the doors and drove away.

Another example on extremes in ideology: I once went to a coworker's party outside of the city. He lives in a rural area, right-wing country. I took a wrong turn into a stranger's driveway, and a man came out pointing a rifle at me. I put my hands up and tried to diffuse the situation. This was the first time in my life someone pulled a weapon on me.

Those extremes in ideology as present everywhere in the US and it's far more intense than in Canada. Even in California for example, a place that's often thought of as quite liberal, you get a huge difference between the big cities on the coast versus interior California.

Yes, the weather in the US is great, and there is lots of entertainment, lots of beautiful coast line, and even tons of wonderful people. But I'm finding that these "extremes" are just too much for me, especially now with the increase in political violence.

The US is a perfectly nice place to visit, but you'll want it in small doses. After a few years here, I am 100% certain that I need to get out of here and can only handle it for shorter visits.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> cheap booze!
> large _potions_ in restaurants!


Booze and_ potions_?


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

For us, we just hold our noses, cross border and head down to the Carolinas. Off season, very affordable and we can drive there. We won't get a suntan, but we can bike, golf, walk in pleasant climate.

I couldn't see going to Florida - Not only more expensive, but when there, with all the traffic and people, we wonder why we didn't just go to Toronto. Another place I can do without 

Mexico and many other places, less safe than where we go in USA.

We have been to the Bahamas - Harder to get to and more expensive. Need a boat when there! But a great place.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Mexico and many other places, less safe than where we go in USA.


Is this what you are talking about:
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nc/crime
or do you know what you are talking about?


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Given the climate of the U.S. and the growing divide (only going to get worse....) I wouldn't bother snowbirding in the U.S. when there are far more beautiful and pleasant places to vacation. Not to be too political, but I can't actively support that country through tourism given the current leadership. It makes me sick.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Booze and_ potions_?


we go to voodoo restauranrs....lol


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

agent99 said:


> For us, we just hold our noses, cross border and head down to the Carolinas. Off season, very affordable and we can drive there. We won't get a suntan, but we can bike, golf, walk in pleasant climate.
> 
> I couldn't see going to Florida - Not only more expensive, but when there, with all the traffic and people, we wonder why we didn't just go to Toronto. Another place I can do without
> 
> ...


whereabouts in the Carolinas would you recommend, 99?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

jargey3000 said:


> whereabouts in the Carolinas would you recommend, 99?


Lots of places along the coasts. Check out https://www.snowbirdadvisor.ca/best-us-destinations-for-canadian-snowbirds However, places like Hilton Head can be congested like those in Florida. Google more specifically for locations in both North Carolina and South Carolina.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

kcowan said:


> Is this what you are talking about:
> https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nc/crime
> or do you know what you are talking about?


That is an interesting site. It's hard to find a city that is safer than 10% of US cities! 

I did find one, and it is one of our favorite golf locations: https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/nc/pinehurst/crime. So maybe some places are safer than others? 

The coastal area of NC/SC is not heavily populated, but does get a very large influx of tourists, especially in summer. That no doubt increases the number of crimes. But it also skews the number of crimes per resident. We notice that in the local papers. Very few crimes reported in Jan/Feb, but increasing in Mar/April. So maybe it is somewhat seasonal and we just don't see it. I am sure Mexico would be similar in tourist areas.

Do I know what I am talking about? Only from our own experience. We have visited the Carolinas for several months every winter for 15+ years. Neither us nor our friends have been victim of any kind of crime. No concerns walking or riding bikes anywhere. Unlike many locations, the homes may have ADT etc, but no big walls or fences surrounding them. I have visited other US and foreign cities where homes are like fortresses with high walls, electric gates etc. 

Also have Canadian relatives who have lived in inland NC for about 40 years. No crimes for them there either  They are staying there. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z8lS--AyBU

PS: Those US figures were quite interestin but also alarming. Hard to find many cities with crime index below 20. I don't know if there is a comparison anywhere with Canadian cities? I did a couple of checks and the crimes per capita here were not much less that some of those low ranking US cities. For example London, Ontario 56/1000 vs 49/1000 in Charlotte, NC (rated as only safer than 6% of US cities.). OK, so what is wrong with the stats? Is London Ont really less safe than 95% of US cities?????

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl...017701&pickMembers[0]=1.23&pickMembers[1]=2.3


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> whereabouts in the Carolinas would you recommend, 99?


It depends on what interests you and at what time of year. We are golfers and enjoy biking and beach walking , so both Pinehurst and Grand Strand area are great for us. 

We love the Outer Banks, but late March April would be best there (Same for Pinehurst) We have also spent time in the Beaufort/Moorehead city area - Maritime feeling. Charleston in SC is interesting and much like a British town (which it of course was!) Hilton Head is very nice but a bit upscale and other than Harbor Town, no real focal point. 

Many snowbirds come to the Grand Strand. It extends from Calabash/Little River (just North of the NC/SC border) down as far as Pawleys Island. Down there Litchfield and Pawleys are a bit quieter and a bit more refined. Myrtle Beach itself is nothing to get excited about! But there and North Myrtle Beach have low cost winter rentals at or near the beach (too cold for swimming) and the many restaurants needed for the summer influx always have great deals. We eat out a lot! 

Weather can be a bit iffy for those on short stays. But for extended stays, there are more than enough good days for our golf and biking. Quite a number of theaters too with high quality shows (mainly aimed at the older crowd!)

We just had our first snow in Ontario - Like James Taylor, I now have Carolina on my mind


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## Italicum (Feb 10, 2017)

james4beach said:


> I'm not retired, but I'll offer some thoughts as someone who's lived in the US for a few years.
> 
> Of the various places I've lived (including Canada, Australia, and a couple places in Europe) the USA is undoubtedly higher stress, feels "nuttier", and has scared me more than any other place I've lived in. I think they are having some major problems in their society that are not going away any time soon.
> 
> ...


+1

In fact, i always thought of te USA as an unhealthy society on the whole and thank my lucky star in having landed in Canada from Europe many years ago, rather than south of the border. Even during the .com boom years, when per diems there were pretty crazy and opportunities abundant i never considered living there.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I travel pretty much all year by motor home & boat for almost 10 years now. It would be plain silly to exclude experiencing areas of the USA due to politics. 

I usually spend a few months in the US every year....places like Indio, San Diego, Florida Keys, Vegas, Myrtle Beach, South Padre Island are my favorites. I love the places,people and food.

The trick to snow birding is to find yourself in a new place every 2 or 3 weeks....never gets old.

Longer term I prefer Mexico...either the Gold Coast or Baja Sur....lol about crime & safety concerns...unfortunately even remote spots like the Catavina Baja area is getting pretty tame & civilized.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We were in the Toonto area. Afterwards, on the way home via a slight detour, it was either Forida and perhaps a last minute cruise or two weeks or so of independent travel on the Mayan Coast. It was no contest from DW... Mexico won out in spades over Florida, a cruise, or a combo of both. Same with me. 

We do not find Florida a particularly inexpensive place to snowbird. As for the restaurants...we are not interested in huge portions, fried foods, and fries with everything. When we go we often split a meal because they are too big. No wonder so many of the locals look like they have been eating huge portions of everything for many years.

Safety? We feel as, or saferhere in Playa or in PV than we do in some parts of Florida.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Umm, just a gentle reminder people. I asked for opinions on the desirability of snowbirding in the USA.

I did not start a thread about 'where to snowbird in the USA' and ask for your favourite spots or for an exchange of suggestions on that. I also did not start a thread on opinions of snowbirding in Florida only. I also did not start a thread asking, 'where would you snowbird other than the USA and why'.

So what is your opinion on the desirability of snowbirding in the USA? And what is it that you see Canadians see as making it desirable? A few responses have addressed the topic but most have wandered off topic. I'm trying to get a handle on 'why do Canadians chose to snowbird in the USA?' So far all I've got is 'cheap prices and weather'. Is that all there is to it? If so, it speaks to a pretty shallow picture of the typical Canadian snowbird.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

1. US locations are easily accessible, either a short plane ride or driveable in 2-3 few days, with virtually no time zone changes
2. Most places speak English
3. Goods and services are essentially the same familiarity as at home
4. Rule of law is approximately the same for those that wish to own their snowbird property (we don't ever want to own foreign property)
5. Most places offer interesting things to do in relatively near proximity (touring, hiking, boating, fishing, golf, cycling, swimming, tanning)

At our current age, we are mixing up US locations with more exotic trips to places like South Africa/Botswana, Costa Rica/Panama, Vietnam/Cambodia but it won't be long before we are not prepared to take long plane trips or cross multiple time zones for our winter warmth and sunshine. Perhaps as little as 5 years, or as long as 10 years to go before we stay closer to home, meaning southern USA and/or Central America. Most people we know stop going out of Canada entirely by the time they reach 80, just from a health perspective.


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## Rosey (Oct 23, 2018)

A few of our freinds have sold their Fla properties mainly due to congestion, insurance costs and increasing crime. This year they are heading to Spain and Portugal. We're heading down to The Mayo Clinic for consultations, only a few hours flight, rent a car and head up to Tybee/Savannah for a few days. Always had fun on Tybee Island especially going to Hucapoos where we can get into fun discussions at the bar with the locals. 
Next winter we plan on either visiting Vietnam or a cruise through the Panama Canal.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

1. weather
2. cheap prices
(and 3, i suppose : english -speaking)
why isnt that enough?
personally, i dont go to fla winter after winter for ...the culture, y'all!)


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Its pretty trendy to be dumping on the USA these days including criticizing people that like to winter there. I don't get it myself.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Other factors that attract people (continuing on with AltaRed's numbering system) to snowbird in the US ...

6. There's lots of info about US locations, easily available. 
7. One's social network is setup in a particular US location, making it easier to find out about deals as well as plug into local activities.
8. Some have family snowbirding in the US or working there.


Cheers


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

Eder said:


> Its pretty trendy to be dumping on the USA these days including criticizing people that like to winter there. I don't get it myself.


+1 Other than typical Canadian whinging and Yankee bashing. I find it hysterical when Canadians self righteously say they are "BOYCOTTING AMERICA" 
Good for you. I am sure all those Democrat owned stores and businesses deserve your scorn.. lol


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Umm, just a gentle reminder people. I asked for opinions on the desirability of snowbirding in the USA.


ISTR that you made a case against it. That would imply that you are looking for input from people who have found it to their liking.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We certainly are not boycotting the US. That would be a little silly. It is simply a combination of our bucket lists, our preferences, exchange rates, value, and any deals that come our way. If we fly to Toronto on points we invariably include an allowed stop in between. Most often Charlotte, and then spent time on Hilton Head plus Charleston and/or Savannah.

For us, the preferred snowbird destinations are either Mexico, Costa Rica/Panama or SE Asia (mostly Thailand).


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## Celyne2007 (Jul 3, 2018)

We traveled many times the US as tourists from Quebec, but we would not consider it for retirement or snowbirding. It all depends on your preferences, what will you be doing during your retirement years? Do you prefer to be close to your family in Canada? In our case, most of our family live in the Dominican Republic and si the plan was to retire there. But this is certainly not for everyone. You have to know the language, the culture and have to be aware of your surroundings to be able to enjoy yourself and without any worries. My point is that your choice, i.e. full relocation, or snowbirding, and choosing the country should be fully investigated and tested before making any decision. Enjoy new adventures!!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> ISTR that you made a case against it. That would imply that you are looking for input from people who have found it to their liking.


Yes, I wanted input from people who do find it to their liking kcowan. I'm trying to understand their thinking. Perhaps my problem is that I expect them to think. LOL

I always have to keep reminded myself that the average IQ is 100 and that isn't very bright is it. When I look at all the factors that play a part in where you spend your time, I just can't see the logic to choosing the USA out of all the choices available, other than weather and cheap as jargey3000 lists and that jargey3000 can list the reasons should actually tell me all I need to know about who it appeals to and why.

There are so many places in the world that are much more interesting to spend time in than the USA. But then I suppose there are a lot of people who don't want 'interesting' as in 'different', they want a place that is much like home. A lot of people don't like 'different' in anything. There doesn't seem to be much point in telling them that they could go to say Portugal for a winter, just as cheaply and experience an entirely different culture, food, architecture, history, etc. They are more interested in 'Early Bird Specials' for dinner at 5pm and portion sizes fit for a 300 lb. person with an eating disorder.

Anyway, I guess I was looking for some logic and that was a mistake. Logic has nothing to do with it, it seems it is all down to familiar with no surprises.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Logic does have everything to do with it when snowbirds pick the southern USA. It is perfectly logical that many people have no interest being crammed into cattle car class of airplanes across multiple time zones to go to a foreign place with a foreign language. It is perfectly logical that what most seniors want is simply the comfort of climate to get out of the snow and cold. It is perfectly logical for snowbirds to go back year after year to participate in a social community they have developed over time, i.e. perfectly bright people have a social circle back home for 6 months a year and a social circle down south for 6 months a year. We have many friends who quite intelligently make annual decisions to go south, or to Hawaii, on an annual basis. 

We are not among those who want to do that, at least not yet at 70 yrs of age, but we certainly don't denigrate those who are very comfortable doing so. It is completely insulting to suggest that anyone who doesn't want to travel to exotic locations across the oceans for snowbirding are not intelligent. It just crystallizes your own narrow mindedness.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Logic does have everything to do with it when snowbirds pick the southern USA. It is perfectly logical that many people have no interest being crammed into cattle car class of airplanes across multiple time zones to go to a foreign place with a foreign language. It is perfectly logical that what most seniors want is simply the comfort of climate to get out of the snow and cold. It is perfectly logical for snowbirds to go back year after year to participate in a social community they have developed over time, i.e. perfectly bright people have a social circle back home for 6 months a year and a social circle down south for 6 months a year. We have many friends who quite intelligently make annual decisions to go south, or to Hawaii, on an annual basis.
> 
> We are not among those who want to do that, at least not yet at 70 yrs of age, but we certainly don't denigrate those who are very comfortable doing so. It is completely insulting to suggest that anyone who doesn't want to travel to exotic locations across the oceans for snowbirding are not intelligent. It just crystallizes your own narrow mindedness.


Well spoken AltaRed!!!


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

Ahh, sneering elitism. How lovely. 

Irony is a cruel ***** though...

"_*I always have to keep reminded myself*_ that the average IQ is 100 and that isn't very bright is it."


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

We bought a condo in Chandler (part of greater Phoenix) in 2010. The prime reason is to escape the Calgary winter. We used to visit Maui for a month every winter but at my age (77), the long flight (7 hours) has made us decide to curtail our Maui trips. Phoenix is only a 3 hour flight and has many amenities. Since my wife and I are quite social, we have many friends in the immediate area.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Although I have no idea (or care) where my IQ falls, I have traveled extensively and rate areas of the USA right up there with the Gold Coast and the Marquesas. Am I just to dumb to shun Mr Trump & Co.s country?

I think LTA may want to just want to steer the topic toward himself hoping someone will ask what his IQ is lol.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Numbersman61 said:


> We bought a condo in Chandler (part of greater Phoenix) in 2010. The prime reason is to escape the Calgary winter. We used to visit Maui for a month every winter but at my age (77), the long flight (7 hours) has made us decide to curtail our Maui trips. Phoenix is only a 3 hour flight and has many amenities. Since my wife and I are quite social, we have many friends in the immediate area.


+1 I'd suggest that is perfectly logical and shows strong intelligence to me. When one, like me, has perhaps only 10-20 years of life left, making decisions every day that bring me the most pleasure is a whole lot smarter than doing something less rewarding to me.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Eder said:


> Although I have no idea (or care) where my IQ falls, I have traveled extensively and rate areas of the USA right up there with the Gold Coast and the Marquesas. Am I just to dumb to shun Mr Trump & Co.s country?


Exactly. I'm not even old - only travelled to 10 or so "far away" locations over 10 or so years. I'm already realizing that the sights/sites in the USA are top notch, good as anywhere in the world, and are right next door. I'm planning a visit to DC over the Christmas break to check it out. Will tell Trump you said hi.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

post removed


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> (all in fun.....actually 3 of my favorite places in the world that I've visited are Paris, Capri and Malta.S


Do they have direct flights or charters to Reykjavík from St.John's? Iceland seems like an interesting place to stop over or even just visit. 

Haven't checked on snopes, but I read that they have more golf courses per capita than any other country in the world.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Not aware of any direct flights to St. John's, but could be. Reykjavik is not really the place to go except in the summer. Iceland's climate is buffeted between the Gulf Stream to the south and Greenland winds from the north. The lowlands around Reykjavik would be about 0C much of the time during the winter months. Iceland Air allows stopovers in Reykjavik at no extra charge. All their flights are on 737s which is not too bad as we flew Reykjavik to Toronto in July this past year. Spent 3 days there on a stopover from Bergen.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

agent99 said:


> Do they have direct flights or charters to Reykjavík from St.John's? Iceland seems like an interesting place to stop over or even just visit.
> 
> Haven't checked on snopes, but I read that they have more golf courses per capita than any other country in the world.


no. but i think there are directs from halfax
but....who wants to go to Iceland, ferpetessakes! when there's Flar-idaaaaa! lol


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I do not understand why anyone would denigrate another persons travel choice, cruise, AI, independent, whatever, or where someone chooses to snowbird. It is unclear to me why this choice somehow indicates level of intelligence.

Is is not enough simply to hear what everyone does on vacation or snow birding without drawing some illogical conclusion about why they select what they do?


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> no. but i think there are directs from halfax
> but....who wants to go to Iceland, ferpetessakes! when there's Flar-idaaaaa! lol


There are. Was on one 2 months ago to Reykjavik.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Maybe worth a visit? 

I got interest in Iceland after reading Michael Ridpath's books in the Magnus Iceland Mysteries series (formerly know as the fire and ice series). 

Iceland has an interesting history. Likely a stopping over place for the Vikings before they discovered Newfoundland (or was it Labrador?) Iceland is said to be the world's oldest democracy, with a parliament established in 930. 

Also learned why so many Scandinavians have names ending in son (and some dottir) . Probably not so prevalent now in Scandinavia, but still used in Iceland. They don't use family names, so phone books are said to be a bit hard to understand for visitors.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Yes, I wanted input from people who do find it to their liking kcowan. I'm trying to understand their thinking. Perhaps my problem is that I expect them to think. LOL
> 
> I always have to keep reminded myself that the average IQ is 100 and that isn't very bright is it. When I look at all the factors that play a part in where you spend your time, I just can't see the logic to choosing the USA out of all the choices available, *other than weather and cheap as jargey3000 lists and that jargey3000 can list the reasons should actually tell me all I need to know about who it appeals to and why.*
> 
> ...


Am I misinterpreting this post, or is this among the most insulting, ignorant, presumptuous, and egotistical posts to have appeared on CMF?
Here's a suggestion LTA, stop 'slumming' it here, go elsewhere and find members on another forum to insult


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Am I misinterpreting this post, or is this among the most insulting, ignorant, presumptuous, and egotistical posts to have appeared on CMF?
> Here's a suggestion LTA, stop 'slumming' it here, go elsewhere and find members on another forum to insult


I don't think arrogance and close mindedness qualifies a poster to be banned, but it sure qualifies them to be ignored as a useless troll.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

duh....thanks guys (above)
but dont blame longtimeago.....I have to keep REMINDED myself that some of these higher-IQ brainiacs dont have enough common sense to know the difference; (or to know when us poor dumb, low IQ slobs are just having a bit of fun...)
As my poor mother used to say:"They're really to be pitied more than blamed"
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm running late for my monthly Mensa meeting at the library. Then its off to teach my art appreciation class, followed by our weekly gourmand dinner (@ 8pm) Saturdays are always so busy! 
ta-ta!


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I am not convinced the difference between Americans and Canadians has been increasing. However, I do think it's more socially acceptable to have certain contrary views in the US, which makes those differences appear exacerbated. In Canada, there is more of a tendency to keep your opinions to yourself, and more social pressure to adopt a liberal mindset. But let's not forget Ontario just elected Doug Ford.

Anyway, there is a significant number of people who have no interest in leaving home for months at a time. It would be a lot easier to convince someone like that to go somewhere nearby, such as the US.

Personally, I have no intention of ever leaving home for months at a time, unless there was some hobby or interest I was pursuing that required it. I don't have much desire to be in some far-flung location, away from all friends and relatives, no matter how interesting it might be. Then again, I'm single, so perhaps that's influencing my view -- I suspect that snowbirding is more common for couples, as they can keep each other entertained and motivated to stay away for the long haul.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

Longtimeago: your post came off as condescending and insulting. Please watch the tone of your posts. We're here to help each other and exchange ideas.

- Moderator


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Am I misinterpreting this post, or is this among the most insulting, ignorant, presumptuous, and egotistical posts to have appeared on CMF?
> Here's a suggestion LTA, stop 'slumming' it here, go elsewhere and find members on another forum to insult


No, you are not misinterpreting at all. It's just one of a many such offensive posts by the same author. 

I am gratified to see that, finally, many here are starting to see this dolt LTA for what he is. When he and JAG formed their mutual admiration society awhile ago and decided to insult me - and lawyers in general - at every turn, I stopped posting here. Life is too short to have to spend a second dealing with the likes of LTA. Sure, easy to say "just ignore", but I, for one, cannot leave any calumny aimed at me go undefended. And defending myself against some anonymous keyboard warrior is not how I care to spend my time, when there are so many more uplifting activities to enjoy.

It's rather amusing that LTA started this thread, saying:



Longtimeago said:


> I am starting this thread to elicit opinions on the desirability of 'snowbirding' in the USA.
> …
> Those are just a few examples of factors that have me wondering what is it that overcomes all the negatives in Canadian's minds?
> 
> I would encourage all Canadians who want to 'snowbird' somewhere to avoid winters in Canada, to at least look at other alternatives to the USA.


His real purpose was not at all to elicit opinions on the desirability of 'snowbirding' in the USA. It was, rather, to take to task anyone who found merit in spending leisure time in the US. He wanted to tell all those low IQ inferior types that he knows better.

LTA's posts here remind me of an exchange with him (the last one for me on cmf) a couple of months ago. I had the temerity to say that I felt sorry for people trapped in jobs they despised, such that their main goal from any early point in life was to retire. LTA addressed me thus:



Longtimeago said:


> You write that, "They are not happy with their daily lives and focus on "retirement" with an urgency. A bit sad. They are not enjoying the journey.", again, you are suggesting that because you enjoy your journey, someone else cannot look at your journey and say, 'that's not the path for me'. Their path is 'sad' while your path is not. Really?


Is LTA not guilty of the same faulty thinking then? He appears to suggest that he has no use for visiting the USA and can think of far superior places in which to tarry. Moreover, he seems to suggest there's something just a little bit warped about those who cannot or will not see it his way. Those people are "shallow", they are of low intelligence, they weigh 300 lb. and they have an eating disorder. In short, their path is 'sad' while his is not. Really?

Let me acknowledge my gratitude for Pluto in that earlier thread for commenting:



Pluto said:


> Mukhang pera finds it sad that people work at occupations they don't like just for the money, and can't wait to retire. their life would be more meaningful if they worked at something they enjoyed and found meaningful in addition to what money was made. Nothing wrong with that observation.


LTA has a hair trigger temper and needs to control threads, as evidence by this recent gem:



Longtimeago said:


> Why don't you guys, 'get a room' as the saying goes. You are so far off the OP's original question it is an entirely different subject. Thread divergence and side-tracking is one thing, total takeover is another. LOL
> 
> I keep checking this thread as it is on my 'subscribed' list but it hasn't had a relevant comment added for perhaps a dozen pages.


More than one poster invited him to leave after that, but people of his ilk are hard to discourage, because they see themselves as in the right. Always.

On the topic at hand, I am pleased that AltaRed, kcowan, Numbersman, Eder and a few others have expressed nicely why some might be quite content with regular US travel. I am in that group. I am fairly well-travelled, have lived and worked in the US and in SE Asia and I have visited countries in Europe, Central America and had made a number of winter trips to Mexico. All have been good experiences.

But I have spent much more time, overall, the US, leaving aside the few years I lived there. LTA suggests the murder rate in the US should instil fear in us all. Those with his attitude no doubt need to watch their step, but it's hardly a matter for consideration for your average snowbird.

I have family members who live in Ontario. One couple, in 2004, bought a 35-foot fifth wheel RV and a bigass diesel truck to haul it. They take it every winter to a park on Lake Okeechobee. They usually book the same site, backing onto the golf course and not far from the tennis courts. They play both. They also avail of the swimming pools. It's a short drive to a warm ocean. They see some of the same snowbirds every season and have a good social life. We have visited them there for a couple of weeks a few times over the years and enjoyed it thoroughly.

For me, I would not do the same as those two. For one thing, I tend to mentally add up the cost of purchasing the RV, the heavy duty truck to pull it, the cost of the diesel fuel over many miles, the cost of the RV park site (over USD1,000/mo., including internet), the cost of RV insurance, maintenance and storage, and I say to myself that for all of that money, I could fly there and rent a car (or drive an ordinary car from Ontario), rent a nice condo or whatever, and still come out at less cost.

However, I realize it's a lifestyle choice. They like the whole RV thing and they do not look at it from straight cost perspective. From their point of view, I can well see the attraction. I also like a little more variety in destinations. And I do not much care for tennis or golf. But should I tell them they are wrong for dragging their RV to Florida and back every year for what is now 14 years? I said "dragging". I prefer not to drive far pulling a trailer. To them, it's nothing and they enjoy the different sites they visit along the way. As well, they visit our family in North Carolina en route. I would guess a number of snowbirds have family to visit on US trips, but not so much in Portugal. So I can see much to commend snowbirding to the US.

Anyway, thanks for letting me drop in and say a few words. Carry on.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

re lta:
sticks and stones, mukhang. sticks and stones....


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Leaving aside the fact I actually live in the US [dual country resident], I also think it's very small minded for someone to look down on people who enjoy visiting the US (or any place) for various reasons.

There are a lot of great things about America... I wouldn't be here if I thought otherwise. I've always enjoyed a trip to (for example) San Diego or the beautiful area south of San Francisco. Lately I've also thought that inland California like Palm Springs could be really nice. It's amazing how hot it gets there in the middle of winter.

Like I wrote earlier, the country has a lot of problems, and it's not great living here. But America is very nice to visit and I plan to keep visiting it.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Thanks Mukhang pera! I missed you.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Thank you too, kcowan. 

I have often read here, and noticed that you remain part of a core group that persevere, manage with a "sticks and stones" attitude to allow the crap thrown up to slide off, all the while making sensible posts, with a measure of sound advice that makes it worthwhile for many to read here, even if they participate in the hurly burly little, if at all.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> kcowan said:
> 
> 
> > ISTR that you made a case against it. That would imply that you are looking for input from people who have found it to their liking.
> ...


Not sure why it would be hard to understand why those looking to hookup with relatives or that have an established community in the USA would be hard to follow the logic of why they would like the US. 

Maybe the obsession with IQ as well as factoring in the perception of the poster is getting in the way.


Cheers


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> No, you are not misinterpreting at all. It's just one of a many such offensive posts by the same author.
> 
> I am gratified to see that, finally, many here are starting to see this dolt LTA for what he is. When he and JAG formed their mutual admiration society awhile ago and decided to insult me - and lawyers in general - at every turn, I stopped posting here. Life is too short to have to spend a second dealing with the likes of LTA. Sure, easy to say "just ignore", but I, for one, cannot leave any calumny aimed at me go undefended. And defending myself against some anonymous keyboard warrior is not how I care to spend my time, when there are so many more uplifting activities to enjoy.
> 
> ...


Yawn.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> Thank you too, kcowan.
> 
> I have often read here, and noticed that you remain part of a core group that persevere, manage with a "sticks and stones" attitude to allow the crap thrown up to slide off, all the while making sensible posts, with a measure of sound advice that makes it worthwhile for many to read here, even if they participate in the hurly burly little, if at all.


Yeah, me too. Welcome back. I agree with what you're writing here as well.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Thanks RB. You are also one here whose writings I have found worth the read. And you seem to manage not getting drawn into any of the nonsense, which I am not always so deft at avoiding.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

^+1


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I enjoy reading posts by MP but also enjoy posts by LTA (without the baiting I find impossible not to respond to).


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> I enjoy reading posts by MP but also enjoy posts by LTA (without the baiting I find impossible not to respond to).


LTA puts a lot of effort into his trolling activity which can be seductive.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Mukhang pera said:


> Thanks RB. You are also one here whose writings I have found worth the read. And you seem to manage not getting drawn into any of the nonsense, which I am not always so deft at avoiding.


Add me to the welcome back crowd as well. I have always enjoyed your articulate, well thought out and reasoned responses. 

I don't always agree with every poster but try to always be open to new ideas and points of view. It is so easy for me to get caught up in defending my own point of view that I forget to acknowledge other people have different points of view based on a whole different life experience. 

Anyway, back to the question, I find travel to the USA enjoyable for the following reasons.
Quick and easy to drive down accross the border
Language, customs and money etc are familiar and stress free
Very interesting places to visit. Just look at the list of parks - Zion, Joshua Tree, craters of the moon, Yellowstone, Mesa verde etc etc etc. The variety is staggering. Hiking, biking, skiing, beaches and so on.
Personally I don't find the idea of living in an RV Park or condo for several months enjoyable regardless of where it is. 

I also enjoy visiting places where the customs, language etc are very different.

Evetyone makes different choices. I just read a response on a similiar forum from a retired fellow who said he had visited 50 countries by the time he was 25. Travel held no more appeal for him. He wanted to go for walks with his dog and drop by the coffee shop to visit with friends.

As they say YMMV.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

twa2w said:


> Add me to the welcome back crowd as well. I have always enjoyed your articulate, well thought out and reasoned responses.


Thanks twa2w.

I agree with all of your points, both about posting on cmf and with USA travel. We enjoy going there for the same reasons. 

You mentioned the fellow with travel burnout. Seems to happen. We know a couple who lived for years in a Vancouver condo. The chose a condo because they could go on extended travels and not worry about grass to cut, etc. Last year, they sold the condo at an inflated Vancouver price. They bought a lot and built a beautiful, large home near Courtenay. They have been busy planting fruit and other trees and just making the place into something they missed in their condo days. They said they are doing so because they have satiated their travel lust. They now derive their pleasure from their home and they say their forays from now on will be confined to exploring all the nooks and crannies of Vancouver Island. That does not sound all bad. We have got together with them a few times since the move and they certainly seem happy. They have even found time to visit our remote location and now they are thinking of buying a boat.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> Thanks RB. You are also one here whose writings I have found worth the read. And you seem to manage not getting drawn into any of the nonsense, which I am not always so deft at avoiding.


Thank you Mp. 

Well I try not to but haven't always succeeded.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> ^+1


Thanks and ditto.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

LTA sounds a lot like a previous poster to me - Oldpro.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

RBull said:


> LTA sounds a lot like a previous poster to me - Oldpro.


Bingo!


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

New guy here. I'm going to Florida for a month in February with my girlfriend. We chose the Florida because it will be warm and we know people staying close by. We're also planning a few stops along the way down.

A few people mentioned the political climate...we have no concerns at all as I think what you see from the media represents a very small percentage of people. I've been to Minnesota every single year since 2000 and politics has never once been an issue.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I love Minnesota...like Canada south to me.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Eder said:


> I love Minnesota...like Canada south to me.


Minnesota has lots of beautiful golf courses. I don't know what's around for golf where we're staying in Florida but I'm taking my clubs just in case I decide to play.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Every time I hear Minnesota I am reminded of a time share/vacation club presentation that we had in Thailand. The salesman was a Brit with no idea of geography or weather in the US.

We asked about winter vacation spots in the US that were offered in the following month (Feb). He got on his system and proudly told us about a resort that was available in Minnesota. We had to explain to him that it was probably under a few feet of snow and never went above 0. No sale....but we did get a free week at a nice resort!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Welcome back Mukhang! I don't post often, but read all your posts, and was quite disappointed that you had left. I always appreciated your well thought out points, that were clearly above the average IQ of 100, guessing over 130.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Eder said:


> I love Minnesota...like Canada south to me.


I have to agree. We had office there, and I spent a lot of time in Minnesota, my spouse worked there a few years ago, and I would visit. It's not a natural place I would consider visiting for vacation, but I have always enjoyed my time there and my kids did too.

In all fairness though, I would not go there to get away from the snow here.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> Welcome back Mukhang! I don't post often, but read all your posts, and was quite disappointed that you had left. I always appreciated your well thought out points, that were clearly above the average IQ of 100, guessing over 130.


^+1 Avoid the baiting (and the BS) by using Ignore...


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I seem unable to use the "ignore" function on myself...is this a bug?


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

Eder said:


> I seem unable to use the "ignore" function on myself...is this a bug?


No, it's an optional enhanced feature. You will be charged more for it. The invoice is in the mail.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> Welcome back Mukhang! I don't post often, but read all your posts, and was quite disappointed that you had left. I always appreciated your well thought out points, that were clearly above the average IQ of 100, guessing over 130.


Thanks PA, the kind welcome gratefully accepted, given its source.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> I have to agree. We had office there, and I spent a lot of time in Minnesota, my spouse worked there a few years ago, and I would visit. It's not a natural place I would consider visiting for vacation, but I have always enjoyed my time there and my kids did too.
> 
> In all fairness though, I would not go there to get away from the snow here.


I have only passed through that state a few times, always headed somewhere else. Each time I have thought it might be worthwhile to go there on a separate trip and check out a few places. 

Their licence plate slogan is, though, perhaps incomplete. It should not stop at "10,000 lakes", but should add: "10 trillion mosquitos".

Related to the topic of visiting the US in general, I probably won't make a special trip to Minnesota, since there are so many places that we have either touched upon, or heard about, that seem worth a visit. Too many competing for attention. Like Canada, the US is huge and diverse in so many ways. One could spend a very long time there and not run out of interesting people and places. 

Finally, should I decide to get on my high horse and boycott the US in a fit of pique, I am not sure that my economic clout is so great that my absence will be noticed. So I might just as well continue to enjoy visiting a few times a year.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> Finally, should I decide to get on my high horse and boycott the US in a fit of pique, I am not sure that my economic clout is so great that my absence will be noticed. So I might just as well continue to enjoy visiting a few times a year.


All that says to me is that you are capable of self-justifying your behaviour. "So I might just as well" is simply an excuse for doing nothing when in fact, you have the ability to do something. That presumes of course you are opposed to something strongly enough to care, to begin with.

https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-...riumph-of-evil-is-for-good-men-to-do-nothing”

Standing up for something you believe in is right, is not getting on a 'high horse' or doing something in a 'fit of pique', but it certainly sounds like how Trump would describe those who oppose his policies and behaviour. Fellow travellers?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Standing up for something you believe in is right, is not getting on a 'high horse' or doing something in a 'fit of pique'


Except when you mislead by creating this thread!


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> but it certainly sounds like how Trump would describe those who oppose his policies and behaviour. Fellow travellers?


Half Americans support Trump...why insult so many people. Why not insult the shmuck that runs Canada...less than half Canadians support his policies and behavior..(provided you are Canadian though)


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

kcowan said:


> Except when you mislead by creating this thread!


That seems to be a fair statement.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Why on earth would Trump or US politics enter into my decision to travel or to snowbird in the US?????


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Why on earth would Trump or US politics enter into my decision to travel or to snowbird in the US?????


It definitely matters for anyone non-white, non-Christian. There is a significant increase in the number of violent attacks towards these groups: black, Jewish, Muslim, or any kind of brown. These are groups that are in the cross hairs of the right wing extremists.

It's a safety concern, even for a Canadian spending time in the US. For example, my black and Jewish friends living in the US are extremely anxious currently. It affects their sleep and stress levels. And today I've been texting with a Chinese-Canadian friend who lives in Boston. Here is what he wrote to me this afternoon:


> A while back you'd asked about safety here. I think it's getting to be more of a real issue now


He means that as a visible minority. The US is fine to visit, and especially fine for white people. But if you are any kind of visible minority you have to be careful, because it's not the America you might have been used to from 10 or 20 years ago. Things have changed pretty dramatically.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I should add, it's a border concern as well. An Iranian friend of mine was detained and interrogated for 2 to 3 hours when entering the US. They made a 40 year old man cry! To be honest, I would discourage any black, Muslim, or latino friends from visiting the US.

This is, after all, why many (not all) people voted for Trump: to keep those kinds of people out of the country. White visitors may be unaware of all this... I've certainly had no problems myself... but for visible minorities it's extremely clear what's going on.


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## Italicum (Feb 10, 2017)

james4beach said:


> I should add, it's a border concern as well. An Iranian friend of mine was detained and interrogated for 2 to 3 hours when entering the US. They made a 40 year old man cry! To be honest, I would discourage any black, Muslim, or latino friends from visiting the US.
> 
> This is, after all, why many (not all) people voted for Trump: to keep those kinds of people out of the country. White visitors may be unaware of all this... I've certainly had no problems myself... but for visible minorities it's extremely clear what's going on.


I would add that you can feel the negative energy even if you are a white caucasian. I certainly do and i am currently simply unable to remain unaffected by what i see on the whole as a deeply injust, divisive and divided society. Yes, to the point of not having any desire to snowbird there. I realize that i generalize here, in that there are plenty of tolerant, compassionate and equitable US residents. Also, please understand I respect those that choose the US as a snowbirding destination and that I am not talking about Politics, even when it comes to its highest ranks. E.g. The first test that the current president would fail in my home is the 'silent' one: i mute the tv and what i observe is a river of negative energy, preheminently, but not only, anger and aggressiveness. I would never vote for such a person to lead my country on that score alone, regardless of his policies and political views. I remain hopeful and open to change my views but must say that these were first shaped many years ago and therefore precede the worsening climate of late.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

A form of ethnic cleansing is getting traction in the USA. It's a white push back against losing a long history of supreme dominance and it is likely to get worse as long as a racist White House condones and fuels it.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2018/demo/P25_1144.pdf is a projection of the trends 2016 through 2060. Start at page 6 for the race discussion. Non-hispanic whites are expected to decrease 19 million in population while overall country population grows 80 million in that period.

Added: As a grey haired white senior, I certainly do not expect any increasing issues taking winter respites in the USA, nor will it likely change a desire to continue to do so, but that is becoming a privilege of my race.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I should add, it's a border concern as well. An Iranian friend of mine was detained and interrogated for 2 to 3 hours when entering the US. They made a 40 year old man cry! To be honest, I would discourage any black, Muslim, or latino friends from visiting the US.
> 
> This is, after all, why many (not all) people voted for Trump: to keep those kinds of people out of the country. White visitors may be unaware of all this... I've certainly had no problems myself... but for visible minorities it's extremely clear what's going on.


Here is a post from earlier this year:


> 1. There have been several reports in reputable international media of people being treated disrespectfully at US Immigration or being refused entry without any legal basis for that decision. For example, a lady from Montreal who was traveling with friends to a bachelorette party in the US was singled out and refused entry without a visa because she was a visible minority. As a Canadian, she does not require a visa.
> 2. People who require visas to enter the US will now be required to submit details of all their phone numbers, addresses, and online handles and passwords for the last 5 years. While I, as a Canadian citizen, do not require a visa to enter the US, I am very uncomfortable with giving out that kind of information.


Original post
The friend was an Iranian Canadian citizen. She is unable to get a visa because she carries a Canadian passport.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> Except when you mislead by creating this thread!


I created the thread in a genuine attempt to try and understand why so many Canadians see the USA as a desirable place to snowbird kcowan. I had no intent to mislead. I do not see it as a place to snowbird given the current situation there. But my personal view is obviously what led me to ask myself, 'how can so many see it as desirable' and thus, I asked the question.

The thread like many threads has changed and evolved. That is has, does not mean I 'misled' when I created the thread. That's an assumption you are making which is incorrect.

Coincidentally, just this past week, my wife had lunch with an acquaintance here in our town. The acquaintance mentioned in conversation that they planned to spend some time in Florida this winter and my wife responded with something like, 'oh we won't travel to the USA at present'. She didn't say it in any confrontational way, just a casual statement of fact.

Here's the interesting (to me at least) part. Her acquaintance looked at her with a 'puzzled/surprised' expression. Where I and my wife would have thought that such a statement was obvious as to the reasons why my wife or anyone else might make such a statement, it was clearly not 'obvious' to this person. How can that be? The only answer I can think of is that this person had never even given any thought to how what someone does for personal reasons (go to Florida), says anything about whether they approve or disapprove of what is happening in that country.

I think that explains a lot in terms of why so many Canadians consider snowbirding in the USA still. They don't think about it in any terms other than their own little world. As I wrote earlier in this thread, while visitors to the USA from every other country in the world are down in numbers, the number of Canadians visiting continues to rise. Why does that discrepancy exist? The only reason that I can see is that while someone visiting from say Europe can compare costs, climate, etc. between say Florida and the Canary Islands as pretty comparable, for Canadians, the USA will always be the cheapest and the easiest to consider. The traveller from Europe on the other hand may then look at other factors in making a choice whereas the Canadian doesn't get past the first factors. They don't think any differently, they just stop thinking after that first pass.

For me, travel is an important part of our life. But where we choose to travel to is not just about costs or convenience. It also includes other factors in making our decisions. I guess that just means I am part of a minority and have difficulty trying to understand why that is the case. That's why I created the thread, to try and understand the thinking of those who see it as no problem for them.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Why on earth would Trump or US politics enter into my decision to travel or to snowbird in the US?????


And that I guess is as good an answer to my original question as any ian. If you don't see any reason for it to enter into your decision, then that tells me what you do and don't consider in making your decisions as to where to travel.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

I've been to the US every year since 2000 and have never had any political issues, and I'm going to Florida for a month this winter and I expect the same. I also have several friends who snowbird every winter and they have never had any issues.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> It definitely matters for anyone non-white, non-Christian. There is a significant increase in the number of violent attacks towards these groups: black, Jewish, Muslim, or any kind of brown. These are groups that are in the cross hairs of the right wing extremists.
> 
> It's a safety concern, even for a Canadian spending time in the US. For example, my black and Jewish friends living in the US are extremely anxious currently. It affects their sleep and stress levels. And today I've been texting with a Chinese-Canadian friend who lives in Boston. Here is what he wrote to me this afternoon:
> 
> ...


I really think the average Canadian really doesn't understand what is happening in the USA today. They see the news but they don't see it as 'affecting' them. Or that their actions in response to what they see on the news, matters.

I am old enough to remember who Cesar Chavez was and to remember my father explaining to my brother and I,why we, living in Toronto, would not be eating grapes. Did our family of 4 not eating grapes change what happened in America? The answer is YES it did. Not our boycott alone obviously, but a boycott by millions of ordinary people who simply did what they believed to be right.
https://ufw.org/1965-1970-delano-grape-strike-boycott/

No one can tell me that what I do as just one individual, cannot affect big issues. But what I can tell anyone who cares to listen, is that what you do as an individual does affect big issues and that means that you are also responsible for the outcomes of those issues, no matter how small your individual impact may be. 

The person who doesn't vote in an election for example is equally as responsible for the government we get as the person who does vote. You can't 'opt out' of responsibility for your own actions. The person who currently visits the USA by choice, is as responsible for what is being allowed to happen there now as the person who lives there. Meaning, the Canadian visitor has as much responsibility as the American resident.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> I've been to the US every year since 2000 and have never had any political issues, and I'm going to Florida for a month this winter and I expect the same. I also have several friends who snowbird every winter and they have never had any issues.


Does it not occur to you Prairie Guy that whether YOU have any issues or not is not the point? The point is do others have issues and is it right that they should have those issues? And should YOU ignore those issues? Should an Iranian nationality Canadian citizen as kcowan tells us about, have an issue entering? Or is that simply WRONG and should you not be saying and acting in a way that shows you know it is wrong?

No disrespect intended Prairie Guy, but the world is not just the your own private little world and to only look at things as if that were case, while ignoring what is happening to the person next to you in line for entry to the USA is simply wrong. Do you really want to indicate that as long as you have no issues, you don't care if another Canadian next in line after you does, because of her colour? 

Think about it and how you think you should act in response.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Off to Thailand this winter. May have some side trips to Cambodia or Vietnam. Then to Australia. Stopping in Hawaii for a few days on the way back. That is our winter plan. Similar to several past winters. Maybe pick up a last minute AI to Cuba or Mexico between now and mid Jan when we leave.

If we made travel decisions based on politics it would eliminate half the countries or more in the world.

I guess it might depend on your lens and your parameters. Is the decision based on democratic vs non, religious freedom, racism. Lots of democratic countries out there that have many racists in the population and in the Government.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Does it not occur to you Prairie Guy that whether YOU have any issues or not is not the point? The point is do others have issues and is it right that they should have those issues? And should YOU ignore those issues? Should an Iranian nationality Canadian citizen as kcowan tells us about, have an issue entering? Or is that simply WRONG and should you not be saying and acting in a way that shows you know it is wrong?
> 
> No disrespect intended Prairie Guy, but the world is not just the your own private little world and to only look at things as if that were case, while ignoring what is happening to the person next to you in line for entry to the USA is simply wrong. Do you really want to indicate that as long as you have no issues, you don't care if another Canadian next in line after you does, because of her colour?
> 
> Think about it and how you think you should act in response.


I thought this topic was about the pros and cons of snowbirding in the US and not a place to attack those who choose the US as a destination?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Exactly. We believe in MYOB. Why criticize someone else's choice of travel mode or venue. Seems more than a little arrogant to me...not to mention silly.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Prairie Guy said:


> I thought this topic was about the pros and cons of snowbirding in the US and not a place to attack those who choose the US as a destination?


I am not attacking you Prairie Guy. I'm just suggesting that you look at the picture from a bigger perspective than just whether you have any 'issues'. But if you aren't comfortable responding to that or discussing that, that's up to you. Just stick your head back in the sand.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Exactly. We believe in MYOB. Why criticize someone else's choice of travel mode or venue. Seems more than a little arrogant to me...not to mention silly.


Who is WE ian? You mean YOU don't you. You believe that MYOB is an answer to anything you don't want to talk about I guess. I am not criticizing anyone's 'choice of travel mode' but I see no reason why I cannot attempt to have someone think about their choice of 'venue' as you call it. 

Who decides what is your or MY business? I'm sure back in the 1930s as National Socialism and Hitler were coming to power, there were plenty of people who were saying 'mind your own business' when someone decried what was happening in Germany. 

No doubt some were still saying MYOB right up until they were conscripted into the army and shipped overseas to fight. Then it sure as hell became their personal business. I'd rather figure out what it is my business to care about before it gets to that kind of a point.

So for me caring today about what is happening in the USA and other countries around the world with the rise of populism and nationalism, IS my business. If it isn't your business Ian, then MYOB and leave me to mind mine.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> I am not attacking you Prairie Guy. I'm just suggesting that you look at the picture from a bigger perspective than just whether you have any 'issues'. But if you aren't comfortable responding to that or discussing that, that's up to you. Just stick your head back in the sand.


I'm perfectly comfortable responding to almost anything, but I have no interest in a political debate. 

Have a nice day.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Matter of time before someone mentions Nazi's lol.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

No question the US has changed for the worse, but I still don't fault anyone for visiting. As Italicum says, yes there is a negative energy here even when you're white. These are all things to take into account, but it's the same when visiting any country.

How pure and good is the Thai government? Cuban government? Brazil? Countless nice destinations have this kind of problem. Many European countries have taken turns for the worse too, and are becoming much more racist. Does one stop going to Europe?



Longtimeago said:


> The person who currently visits the USA by choice, is as responsible for what is being allowed to happen there now as the person who lives there. Meaning, the Canadian visitor has as much responsibility as the American resident.


I strongly disagree and I find this outlandish and judgemental.

I'm a long term visitor to the US. Is it my fault their electorate & government has gone crazy? No, of course not. I'm not a citizen or voter here, and I have no say in the matter.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Quote Originally Posted by james4beach View Post
> I should add, it's a border concern as well. An Iranian friend of mine was detained and interrogated for 2 to 3 hours when entering the US. They made a 40 year old man cry! To be honest, I would discourage any black, Muslim, or latino friends from visiting the US.
> 
> This is, after all, why many (not all) people voted for Trump: to keep those kinds of people out of the country. White visitors may be unaware of all this... I've certainly had no problems myself... but for visible minorities it's extremely clear what's going on.
> ...


lol...maybe the male was a roof top sniper running amok in Portland?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> lol...maybe the male was a roof top sniper running amok in Portland?


Eder is tastelessly making light of American domestic terrorists. He thinks it's a funny joke that people are concerned about right-wing violence. The post is to mock me: armed right-wing militias were on rooftops in Portland a few months ago, near my office, taking sniper positions to kill Portland residents.

Myself, and people around where I work are afraid of violent attacks by right wing groups, but Eder thinks it's funny. People are getting killed by far-right terrorists, and Eder is sitting there (on Remembrance Day!) mocking it.

What a tasteless comment. You're dishonouring your father who fought against fascism. He fought against them, and now you align with the radical right wing and sympathize (and defend) fascists who are active today.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

Posts that promote violence and extremism will not be tolerated on this forum. Members who show support/sympathy for violent groups, including repeating ideological propaganda, will be banned. Several users have been banned for this reason over the last month.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> I have only passed through that state a few times, always headed somewhere else. Each time I have thought it might be worthwhile to go there on a separate trip and check out a few places.
> 
> Their licence plate slogan is, though, perhaps incomplete. It should not stop at "10,000 lakes", but should add: "10 trillion mosquitos".
> 
> ...


I would have never visited Minnesota if it wasn’t for work. However, now that we have been there it’s no so bad, and my spouse may take another short term contract and I wouldn’t mind. 

I actually had more problems with mosquitoes in Winnipeg than I did there,


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ian said:


> Why on earth would Trump or US politics enter into my decision to travel or to snowbird in the US?????


I know know it makes absolutely no sense, no difference froman economics standpoint, but I did try to buy less US products and show my dissatisfaction with their gone emend by not giving them any of my hard earned dollars. It’s the same when I annoyed by any company I stop buying things from them. It may not have made a difference but I did feel better about it. Plus, I learned a lot more about where my stuff comes from and found some neat local things.

This being said, I fault no one for deciding to go to the US. Everyone has different interests. Plus, I quite like the states normally.


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## Italicum (Feb 10, 2017)

I understand much of the discussion here has centered on the political climate south of the border and on whether that should or should not influence one's decision to snowbird there. I would like to be clear (likely my last post on this thread, as i just intend to learn, respectfully and clearly express my current views, while not trying to convince anyone) that when, upthread, i talk about 'energy' i am not only referring to Politics and whether they are racist or not. With energy i am referring to something much wider and basic, to human tendencies of aversion (leading to contempt, anger, aggressiveness, etc.), greed and delusion (delusion meaning here not realizing that we are one global people regardless of nationality, religion, color, wealth and status, passing by a finite earth). These are poisonous human, pretty much universal tendencies. However, my view is that they are particularly pronounced and uncontrolled in US society, at the street level. These are root tendencies that lead to separation and little care for others and the environment. It is using these parameters that i feel i could still snowbird in all of europe (i come from there and i do agree that bad sentiments are on the rise there...but it is a matter of degree, extent), all of south-east asia and many other countries in other parts of the world. Again, i underscore that i am generalizing, in that there are plenty of US residents not fitting this description. It is a matter of extent and pervasiveness.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

james4beach said:


> Eder is tastelessly making light of American domestic terrorists. He thinks it's a funny joke that people are concerned about right-wing violence. The post is to mock me: armed right-wing militias were on rooftops in Portland a few months ago, near my office, taking sniper positions to kill Portland residents.
> Myself, and people around where I work are afraid of violent attacks by right wing groups, but Eder thinks it's funny. People are getting killed by far-right terrorists, and Eder is sitting there (on Remembrance Day!) mocking it.
> What a tasteless comment. You're dishonouring your father who fought against fascism. He fought against them, and now you align with the radical right wing and sympathize (and defend) fascists who are active today.



Go ahead and ban me too, James (or whatever Moderator title you are hiding behind these days).

Eder, Gibor and Bass Player were good and fine posters and guilty of nothing more than "thought crime" against your humourless leftist agenda. 
They also each had more common sense than I think you will ever accumulate in your lifetime.

To paraphrase the proverb: "It takes a snowflake to ruin a forum"


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> No question the US has changed for the worse, but I still don't fault anyone for visiting. As Italicum says, yes there is a negative energy here even when you're white. These are all things to take into account, but it's the same when visiting any country.
> 
> How pure and good is the Thai government? Cuban government? Brazil? Countless nice destinations have this kind of problem. Many European countries have taken turns for the worse too, and are becoming much more racist. Does one stop going to Europe?
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying james4beach but I still disagree. I am also a long term visitor to the USA, having visited many times over multiple decades. But I still have the choice of whether to visit again or not. I have a say in the matter in that sense, just as I had a say in whether I would eat grapes from California or not in the late 1960s.

If I visit, I am NOT standing up and saying, NO, this is wrong. I am not showing by my actions what my position on the issues is. To that degree, I am responsible just as a resident would be. The difference is the resident can vote to show their opposition, I can only boycott. But we both can play a role. So when you write, "I have no say in the matter.", you are incorrect. You do have a say, perhaps you just don't see it.

I was brought up to have and to stand by my 'principles' james4beach. My Father taught me not to wait for others to show me when to speak up for or against something, but to decide for myself what was right or wrong and to stand up and say so when I knew my answer. He also taught me not to compromise my principles for expediency or profit.

If you have principles and do determine that something is not right james4beach, you have no choice but to be judgemental and why wouldn't you be? Being judgemental is not a bad thing in and of itself. I can and do judge a society by its actions. When a US President TWEETS about foreigners and building walls to keep them out etc. I have no difficulty judging that man and his actions. They are wrong and I will say so to anyone. In line with that I will do what I can do to change it and that means boycotting the USA at present. I consider it to be my responsibility to do so.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Koogie said:


> Go ahead and ban me too, James (or whatever Moderator title you are hiding behind these days).


Eder directly joked about domestic terrorism in the city where I live. He knows there is an active threat here which could endanger my life. It's more than bad taste: it's threatening. There are people in my office now carrying concealed handguns due to the threat around here.

But that's Eder for you... and bass player... and gibor... and you too. You've been constantly joking about violent extremists.

And for everyone reading this thread, take note that this is not just an "American" issue. There are many people in Canada who share similar values to some of these things you might find disgusting about the US. Sure, the American government has actually implemented policies along these lines, but the values and ideology is not specific to the US. There's plenty of it in Canada, too.


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## Italicum (Feb 10, 2017)

james4beach said:


> Eder directly joked about domestic terrorism in the city where I live. He knows there is an active threat here which could endanger my life. It's more than bad taste: it's threatening. There are people in my office now carrying concealed handguns due to the threat around here.
> 
> But that's Eder for you... and bass player... and gibor... and you too. You've been constantly joking about violent extremists.
> 
> And for everyone reading this thread, take note that this is not just an "American" issue. There are many people in Canada who share similar values to some of these things you might find disgusting about the US. Sure, the American government has actually implemented policies along these lines, but the values and ideology is not specific to the US. There's plenty of it in Canada, too.


Noted. I don't know enough about most other posters to hold a view about them (and in any event i would like that view to be compassionate, even in the worst scenario) but you strike me as a smart, knowledgeable (in the matters relating to this forum at least), reasonable and open minded young (i gather) man. I hear your concerns when you describe your current work circumstances and would like you to know that.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

james4beach said:


> Eder directly joked about domestic terrorism ...But that's Eder for you... and bass player... and gibor... and you too. You've been constantly joking.....


james4beach: Humour Sensor and Thought Police


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Koogie said:


> Humour Sensor


Just as an oxygen sensor is important to the proper running of an automotive engine, a humour sensor is important to the running of cmf.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not sure it's appropriate to joke about American misfortunes, after a guy mailed out bombs to political enemies and ex presidents, another guy committed a synagogue massacre, and others are killing black people for sport (all related).

In my opinion it's both inappropriate, and dangerous, to joke about associations with violent groups. And it's especially not funny to defend the perpetrators or make excuses for them.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

Per usual James, as a humourless *Far Leftist* (is that term allowed or will I be censured again?) you have missed the point.
You, your constant hysteria and endless paranoia were the butt of the jokes. Not anyone or anything else.

Still, you have silenced the critics and the comedians.

Groupthink wins again.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Koogie said:


> Per usual James, as a humourless *Far Leftist* (is that term allowed or will I be censured again?) you have missed the point.
> You, your constant hysteria and endless paranoia were the butt of the jokes. Not anyone or anything else.
> 
> Still, you have silenced the critics and the comedians.


Just try taking these fun "jokes" about terrorism to the US border, and let us know how that goes. Who knows, they may already know what kinds of things you write. US CBP sometimes asks to see social media, and you might be forgetting that these are public forums. Your bad taste and inappropriate jokes are recorded here for all to see.

There are many things in life to joke about, but I stand by my statement that when people are getting massacred in synagogues and ex-presidents are getting bombs sent to them, these are not laughing matters, and not appropriate to joke about.

Koogie, I think you have bad taste in this area. You're a fine person with fine insights into investing, but we definitely disagree on the matter of what is appropriate for posting in the forum.


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## Koogie (Dec 15, 2014)

james4beach said:


> Just try taking these fun "jokes" about terrorism to the US border, and let us know how that goes. Who knows, they may already know what kinds of things you write. US CBP sometimes asks to see social media, and you might be forgetting that these are public forums.


As I said. Endless paranoia.



james4beach said:


> There are many things in life to joke about, but I stand by my statement that when people are getting massacred in synagogues and ex-presidents are getting bombs sent to them, these are not laughing matters, and not appropriate to joke about.


Despite you trying to twist things around James, I never did. I restricted myself to focusing on the greatest source of amusement to me here. You.



james4beach said:


> Koogie, I think you have bad taste in this area. You're a fine person with fine insights into investing, but we definitely disagree on the matter of what is appropriate for posting in the forum.


Indeed. I am tasteless, you are clueless. Never the twain shall meet. Perhaps we could agree to give other posters a break by ceasing the endless to and fro for now.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Koogie said:


> Despite you trying to twist things around James, I never did. I restricted myself to focusing on the greatest source of amusement to me here. You.


Ah, now I see. You don't hold extremist views yourself; rather, you've just been doing this to bully me. And you're speaking in right-wing-extremist phraseology because you think it's a fun way to get a rise. Very similar to the trolls on Twitter, Youtube and Facebook.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Koogie said:


> humourless *Far Leftist*


If all it takes to get labelled "far left" is to observe that shooting up a shul is an act of terrorism, then you better mark me down too. I will self-identify as lacking humour in these matters.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

This thread has gone way off its topic and should be shut down. LTA structured it to be contentious.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Shut her down!!!!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> This thread has gone way off its topic and should be shut down. LTA structured it to be contentious.


I'll say again kcown, no I did not intend it to be contentious. I intended to try and find out why people still consider the USA as a desirable snowbird destination these days. Yes, I had a reason for asking based on my own beliefs but the question was originally asked purposely without bringing my beliefs into the picture. As I'v already said, the thread moved on as I suppose it was inevitable it would.

I do agree however with shutting it down now. It is going in circles, the points and opinions have been given. Unfortunately, it is also now eliciting personal insults by some who aren't able to discuss a topic without making it personal when they disagree with something. They aren't capable of debating the issue so the attack the person. Argumentum ad hominem.

I now understand why so many find it desirable still based on the comments this thread has brought me. It's simple, people don't care enough. So I've got my answer, the thread has answered it. Thanks to all those who have contributed, whether I agree with your viewpoints or not. 

End of thread. Moderator please close.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

I'm closing the thread for a few days, but some of the discussion (while unpleasant) isn't entirely off topic regarding the environment in the US.


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