# Renting and have to pay utilities - Landlord hasn't asked...



## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

I am renting a split bungalow on a yearly lease and it was agreed that I would pay half utilities. At first the LL was pretty laissez faire about it, I purchased a lawnmower for the place, fixed garage door opener, he said it would come out in the wash. I sent him the bills for tax purposes etc. I assumed since he was a real estate agent, representing the LL he would have his ducks in a row. 

My post dated rent cheques get cashed monthly. He has asked me to calculate half utilities, but I don't have/get the bills! Not to mention that isn't my job. I have asked numerous times for a good accounting breakdown of owning, and he hasn't come through with a good list worthy of my attention. I got a partial break-down at one point consisting of me paying for his late payments and things that aren't on the lease like garbage. I sent it back. I haven't heard from him in ages. I have lived in this house for a year and a half now. I like the place and the location. 

What's up with this? The last thing I need is to eventually try to sift through years of bills to see if my owing is correct and be saddled with a bill in the thousands.


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## dougboswell (Oct 25, 2010)

maxandrelax said:


> I am renting a split bungalow on a yearly lease and it was agreed that I would pay half utilities. At first the LL was pretty laissez faire about it, I purchased a lawnmower for the place, fixed garage door opener, he said it would come out in the wash. I sent him the bills for tax purposes etc. I assumed since he was a real estate agent, representing the LL he would have his ducks in a row.
> 
> My post dated rent cheques get cashed monthly. He has asked me to calculate half utilities, but I don't have/get the bills! Not to mention that isn't my job. I have asked numerous times for a good accounting breakdown of owning, and he hasn't come through with a good list worthy of my attention. I got a partial break-down at one point consisting of me paying for his late payments and things that aren't on the lease like garbage. I sent it back. I haven't heard from him in ages. I have lived in this house for a year and a half now. I like the place and the location.
> 
> What's up with this? The last thing I need is to eventually try to sift through years of bills to see if my owing is correct and be saddled with a bill in the thousands.


When you signed the lease it should have been listed what your utilities you are responsible for and the %. The landlord gets the utility bills so he or she should be itemizing your costs. I am not sure why you are expected to pay late charges. If it is not on the lease ie: garbage you don't pay. If your province has a landlord and tenant board call them and get their advise on how to proceed.


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## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

dougboswell said:


> When you signed the lease it should have been listed what your utilities you are responsible for and the %. The landlord gets the utility bills so he or she should be itemizing your costs. I am not sure why you are expected to pay late charges. If it is not on the lease ie: garbage you don't pay. If your province has a landlord and tenant board call them and get their advise on how to proceed.


It is just a indication of their disorganization. The lease is clear what I am responsible for (just no indicated timeline). 

It is a situation where the LL lives overseas (I've have had no contact with - just write the cheques to). The LL hired the real estate agent who helped him purchase the house, to manage it - this guy deals with the big issues like hot water tank breaking down. This agent, was constantly asking me to pay for the repairs and "it would get taken out of my utilities". I started saying NO when I realized they were disorganized. He didn't want to show up to pay the contractors. Like I'm going to pay for three plumber visits. 

It gets more complicated because the LL is giving responsibility to his fresh out of university kid to collect - ironically an accounting major. This kid actually asked me if he could return three months of cheques to me, so that I could write ONE larger one that he could cash early because he was leaving the country for three months. I Loled!


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## crr243 (Nov 2, 2015)

maxandrelax said:


> It is just a indication of their disorganization. The lease is clear what I am responsible for (just no indicated timeline).
> 
> It is a situation where the LL lives overseas (I've have had no contact with - just write the cheques to). The LL hired the real estate agent who helped him purchase the house, to manage it - this guy deals with the big issues like hot water tank breaking down. This agent, was constantly asking me to pay for the repairs and "it would get taken out of my utilities". I started saying NO when I realized they were disorganized. He didn't want to show up to pay the contractors. Like I'm going to pay for three plumber visits.
> 
> It gets more complicated because the LL is giving responsibility to his fresh out of university kid to collect - ironically an accounting major. This kid actually asked me if he could return three months of cheques to me, so that I could write ONE larger one that he could cash early because he was leaving the country for three months. I Loled!


This sounds like a bad situation. 

When does your lease end? 6 months?

I'd get out as soon as I could.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

yeah get out of this lease. These 'half-half' deals or 'I'll take care of later' business is very shady and always turns sour. And who asks for a lease payment advance!?!

Just pay your rent and have him figure out the utilities - the bills don't come in your name so why do you need to worry?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

maxandrelax said:


> The last thing I need is to eventually try to sift through years of bills to see if my owing is correct and be saddled with a bill in the thousands.


I think that's probably what will happen eventually. But I don't see why it's that big of an issue? I mean you say you like the house and location and it sounds like the LL is in no other way abusive or unfair, just unorganized, and it sounds like dealing with the landlord's agent (university kid) is something you can handle.

I'd just make sure you have funds earmarked for paying the larger bill down the road, and then ignore it.

Worst case scenario is you have to do an hour of calculator pushing and pay your half that you were supposed to pay anyways. Best case scenario is the LL never gets their act together and you have free utilities! Maybe next year you decide to move somewhere else and just go and he never bothers to figure out what period of time you lived there or what you owe. Seems like a no-lose situation to me. I would just never bring it up again and see what happens.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

peterk said:


> I think that's probably what will happen eventually.* But I don't see why it's that big of an issue?* I mean you say you like the house and location and it sounds like the LL is in no other way abusive or unfair, just unorganized, and it sounds like dealing with the landlord's agent (university kid) is something you can handle.


?? It IS that "big of an issue" the way I see it. if the renter doesn't get this settled now, it will become a big dispute further down the road, where the LL will "guesstimate" how much the renter owes him, and in the LL favour at that if the renter chooses to move. The renter shouldn't fall for that. 



> I'd just make sure you have funds earmarked for paying the larger bill down the road, and ]then ignore it].


Not a good idea IMO. If the utilities pile up and the renter has to pay late charges..there is DEFINITELY SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS LITTLE ARRANGEMENT!



> Worst case scenario is you have to do an hour of calculator pushing and pay your half that you were supposed to pay anyways.


How is the renter going to calculate 1/2 of the electricity and heating used, (plus taxes), if this stretches out to several months without any utility bill to refer to?
Not really possible. 

WHY SHOULD HE HAVE TO DO THAT? The renter should "pay each monthly bill as you go."
The LL should *send the renter PHOTOCOPIES OF THE UTILITY BILLS. as they occur.

The renter should pay the LL for 1/2 of the utilities each month, and get a RECEIPT from the LL that the renter has paid the bill..or a cashed check which shows that the renter has at least carried out his part of the arrangement. 
That way at least there can be some recourse, if the utilities are cut off because the LL is not paying the full utility bills, or paying them them on time.

The LL should be responsible for the water and sewer as as part of the rent payment.




Best case scenario is the LL never gets their act together and you have free utilities! Maybe next year you decide to move somewhere else and just go and he never bothers to figure out what period of time you lived there or what you owe. Seems like a no-lose situation to me. I would just never bring it up again and see what happens.

Click to expand...

But it may not be a 'no lose situation" in the end. The LL can take the tenant to small claims court, claiming the tenant just lived there and not paid his half of the bills.
This by by far is a dumb idea, and not very business like]. In the lease, if you are responsible for 1/2 of the utilities (heat/ hydro) and the bills are still in the LL's name, he should send you a photo copy of the utility bills and a receipt for 1/2 of each utility paid by the tenant.

This "little arrangement probably implies (at least to me) that the LL is NOT claiming the rent paid as extra income , preferring to keep the utility bills in his name to avoid having to declare rental income to CRA.*


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

This gigantic *bolded* post is over the top Carverman.

Small claims court? How could our reasonable OP possibly let it come to that? He'd just pay his half when the landlord months/years later got around to sending him the bills...

Recourse for the utilities being cut off due to LL non-payment of bill in his name? Recourse for the renter? What would that look like? He wants his power on and wants to live there. What are you talking about recourse?

The impossible task of compiling multiple months worth of bills into one payment? Oh the horror. How on earth would one ever overcome such a monumental challenge...

OP says:



> I have asked numerous times for a good accounting breakdown of owning, and he hasn't come through with a good list worthy of my attention.


That sums it up. You asked many times, got some half-assed invoice with mistakes, politely rejected it, and never heard about it again. If it were me the extent of my involvement at this point would be a reminder email every few months for him to itemize the utility bill and send it for prompt payment of my half. If he didn't within 2 emails I'd just stop caring and ignore it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

peterk said:


> This gigantic *bolded* post is over the top Carverman.
> Thanks..I must have gotten carried away. :biggrin: removed "shouting content" now. ...now where was i?
> 
> 
> ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

maxandrelax said:


> It is just a indication of their disorganization. The lease is clear what I am responsible for (just no indicated timeline).
> 
> It is a situation where the LL lives overseas (I've have had no contact with - just write the cheques to). The LL hired the real estate agent who helped him purchase the house, to manage it - this guy deals with the big issues like hot water tank breaking down. *This agent, was constantly asking me to pay for the repairs and "it would get taken out of my utilities". I started saying NO* when I realized they were disorganized. He didn't want to show up to pay the contractors. Like I'm going to pay for three plumber visits.
> 
> It gets more complicated because the *LL is giving responsibility to his fresh out of university kid to collect *- ironically an accounting major. This kid actually asked me if he could return three months of cheques to me, so that I could write ONE larger one that he could cash early because he was leaving the country for three months. I Loled!


Oh, there is a "middle man" (RE agent) and the LL son involved..didn't read this part of the post. 

This is indeed a strange situation. If the LL lives overseas and bought a house with the real estate agent without actually living there.
This explains the strange arrangement and accounting having the LL's son collecting and the RE agent responsible for breakdowns or maintenance. 
This is a bad lease IMO.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Yet another "investor" who doesn't have a clue, nor wants to do anything to earn money. Investing requires work.

If I were the tenant, I'd move. There are probably other landlords in the same neighbourhood. If you didn't move, set aside money for your utilities, document EVERYTHING (all your extra payments, all your expenses, all your correspondence where they ASK you to do extras). When it comes to court, or even a dispute, the one that can PROVE their claims wins.

If the lease says you need to pay half, you need to pay half if they present you with the bills. If they can prove they sent you notices, but you claim you didn't get them, you're on the hook. If you say they ASKED you to fix/buy something in exchange for something else, but have no WRITTEN proof, they can claim you did that on your own, and they'll win. 

You may not be on the hook for late fees if they don't provide you with notices, but hey can also, depending on the province, hold onto your damage deposit to pay the bills, then you'd have to take them to court to get that back (if you could PROVE it). Remember, your word means NOTHING in court, only what you can prove. If you leave, I doubt the landlord would bother to take you to court, it's probably not worth the effort. 

Want to save a few bucks, leave bofore they get organized but, in reality, you agreed to pay the utilities, so DON'T SPEND THE MONEY you should have allocated to the expense, it was never yours to begin with.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

As I mentioned..this sounds fishy to me, if there is actually a lease. 

Without paperwork with the contents of the lease, and what the tenant is responsible for, VS what the LL (or whomever OFFICIALLY REPRESENTS
the Ll (Ie; a letter to the tenant that the "middleman" is authorized by the LL to carry out any repairs and rent collecting on his behalf),
the tenant is caught between a rock and a hard place.

The lease clearly has to indicate:

Who the owner is, who is authorized to carry out repairs and collect the rent..one party, not the rental agent and the LL son' who may or may not be the official
representative of the LL interests..it becomes unnecessarily complicated.. especially in case the utilities giving final notice to the person living at that specific address,
that the hydro or heat will be cut off for non-payment.

Is the tenant in control in that situation?... don't think so..... because the utilities wouldn't know who the actual occupant is.

The lease should spell out any details, exclusions or special arrangements/ agreements between both parties and signed by the OWNER of the property, his official address,
as well as signed and witnessed by a third party living in the area, such as the rental agent that rented out the premises in the first place.

A lot of grow-ops occur this way. But in the grow-up case, the utilities catch up pretty soon when the electric bill is excessive for the LL " supposedly living there". 
This arrangement that "you pay half and I'll pay half" indicates to me that the LL is not willing to disclose that he is renting out the place to whichever gov't revenue agency he is filing with and "this is on the sly."


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## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

What an absolutely ridiculous situation, especially given the technology available today.

As a landlord that rents to students, I have rented houses by the room, plus a monthly electricty charge equally split between rooms, for two houses. My electricity provider makes the monthly bills available ONLINE, as well as usage data. As the actually bills had a month lag time, I would screenshot capture usage data on the 1st of each month, and enter the data for each time of use period into a spreadsheet replicating the bill's calculations. (Took me all of five minutes for both houses.)

Each month on the 1st, each tenant would receive an email from me with their amount due for the previous month, including a screenshot of usage data to midnight of the previous day, and a screenshot of the spreadsheet with the calculations. I never once had anyone complain or fail to pay.

There should be an available online bill for the utilities that whoever is managing the property should be able to email the tenant. They are usually downloadable in PDF format. Ask for copies of all bills by email. If the property manager has to sign up online with the utility once, so be it.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

This kind of reminds me of my situation when I was renting a few years ago. In the lease it stated that I would be responsible for the water heater rental. Not a big deal, although a problem is that the landlord (via property manager) didn't really have a mechanism to bill me. They wanted me to switch the rental into my name, but the rental company wouldn't do so because it wasn't a "rental" property. So I let the property manager know and asked what he wanted to do about it. He emailed the owner (I was cc'ed), but there was no response. Then a few months later I get a call from the property manager who said that the owner was getting upset because the company was probably calling him for late payment. I pointed out that I mentioned this months ago, but he didn't resolve it. Finally, I said that I would pay what was outstanding on his behalf (he was late on payments before I moved in) and then I would pay any of the subsequent bills that were mailed to the house. As it was, I never received another bill, so I ended up paying for about 6 months and late charge for the year of rental. 

I never found out if he ever resolved the issue.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I second Just a Guy's advice. Whether or not OP likes the location, this situation is trouble in the making. OP should give notice, and make it clear why.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> This kind of reminds me of my situation when I was renting a few years ago. In the lease it stated that I would be responsible for the water heater rental. Not a big deal, although a problem is that the landlord (via property manager) didn't really have a mechanism to bill me. They wanted me to switch the rental into my name, but the rental company wouldn't do so because it wasn't a "rental" property.



Heat, Hydro and HWT rentals and who is responsible to pay these bills, are always an issue. Most utilities charge a fee for transferring the gas and hydro bill over to the tenant and when the tenant vacates the property, the LL is responsible for transferring the billing back to his/her name because while the utility will send out the bill to the address in question, it may deduct the monthly charges to the vacated tenant, if the billing is not set up correctly.

Utilities now have online accounts that you can access with a password once the numbered account is registered to somebody. In the case of students,
it is not a good idea to register them as owners of the utility account, (because they can leave at any time), but the LL can set up a email schedule as you mentioned to provide each student a pdf bill so they can see the total consumption, the total amount of the bill, and the splitting of the bill.

The LL should keep computer records of how much was paid and who paid them.

The students should always keep a computer record of how much they were supposed to pay (based on the lease agreement) and how they paid by check (never cash), and a receipt from the LL as proof that their allotted portion was paid in full. 



> So I let the property manager know and asked what he wanted to do about it. He emailed the owner (I was cc'ed), but there was no response. Then a few months later I get a call from the property manager who said that the owner was getting upset because the company was probably calling him for late payment. I pointed out that I mentioned this months ago, but he didn't resolve it. Finally, I said that I would pay what was outstanding on his behalf (he was late on payments before I moved in) and then I would pay any of the subsequent bills that were mailed to the house. As it was, I never received another bill, so I ended up paying for about 6 months and late charge for the year of rental.
> 
> I never found out if he ever resolved the issue.


Yet another example of sloppy business rental arrangements


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

carverman said:


> Heat, Hydro and HWT rentals and who is responsible to pay these bills, are always an issue. Most utilities charge a fee for transferring the gas and hydro bill over to the tenant and when the tenant vacates the property, the LL is responsible for transferring the billing back to his/her name because while the utility will send out the bill to the address in question, it may deduct the monthly charges to the vacated tenant, if the billing is not set up correctly.


Yeah, setting up accounts with the utilities are always annoying, especially with all the account fees for opening an account. I just have to make sure they are aware of everything months ahead of schedule.



> Yet another example of sloppy business rental arrangements


That experience pretty much cured me of any desire to ever rent again. It wasn't a really horrible experience, but just annoying.


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## maxandrelax (Jul 11, 2012)

bgc_fan said:


> Yeah, setting up accounts with the utilities are always annoying, especially with all the account fees for opening an account. I just have to make sure they are aware of everything months ahead of schedule.
> That experience pretty much cured me of any desire to ever rent again. It wasn't a really horrible experience, but just annoying.


OP here, 
Some great advise. Thanks CMF! It gets more comical the more I think of it. The 2 basement tenants (4 rooms, one kitchen) go month to month, paying a fixed cash rent - they have nothing to do with utilities. They have asked for rent receipts and the LL (agent) has refused. 

I have cable TV written into my lease. I learned later on that the cable was an illegal connection through Rogers... since Rogers has been phasing out the old non-HD channels, we have been losing channels all year and are down to about 8. Asked the LL for better cable and he said it is too expensive. Lol. 

Moral of the story: Just because the rental is through an RE agent, don't assume it will be legit. 

Have to think about getting out, but it will be tough in this Toronto rental market and with big life changing events coming up soon.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

You should be able to get copies of the utility bills from the electric company, gas company etc. Go to their office and ask, take your lease as proof that you live in the house.

Estimate your share of the cost, as specified in the lease. Open a bank account and put the money in there. If the landlord suddenly wants the money, there it is. If he wants you to pay late fees and penalties, refuse. You were ready at any time to pay your bill, it is his fault he did not send it to you. By the way you should have some documentation that you asked the rental agent, such as a copy of a letter.

Best case, you never have to pay a utility bill and get to keep the money.

Worst case you have to pay what you promised to pay. Keep proper records and even if you get taken to small claims court you will be able to prove you are not at fault, and owe only the utility bills no penalties etc.


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