# CIBC Personal Portfolio Services



## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

CIBC is trying to convince me to let them manage my investments with them in their PPS Monthly Income Balanced Portfolio. Their fees are 2%. It doesn't sound like much of a deal to me and how much actual 'management' they do is a good question. I'm wondering if anyone has had experience with this group. How it would be better than any index fund is a good question I suppose. Thanks .


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

2% is way too much.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

dogleg

I would never sit down @ a poker game & give my money & hand to the guy sitting across the table from me to play.

Who is taking the other side of the trade with the banks ? Your playing with some of the smartest & most powerful men in the world when playing the markets do you really want to give your money to them. In this game trust no one . The banks makes billions with their fees, Is the banks primary focus on making you money or how to make money on the other side of the trade like goldman does.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

No, definitely don't. The fees are high, they won't add value, and you'll lose control of your own money


----------



## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

I have had a pretty good experience. YMMV. A forum like this generally exists for people who are DIY investors. You can probably beat the net returns with an advanced level of knowledge. My comprehension is moderate.
The sales pitch was so cheesy that I was watching it like a hawk and ready to pull the plug. 
I bookmarked this thread: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...anaged-Portfolio?p=41674&viewfull=1#post41674 and almost pulled everything out at one point because of the "you can do better yourself" chants in threads like that, and I'll just say I'm glad I didn't. 
For the performance I have seen, 2% is fine by me.


----------



## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

hystat said:


> I have had a pretty good experience. YMMV. A forum like this generally exists for people who are DIY investors. You can probably beat the net returns with an advanced level of knowledge. My comprehension is moderate.
> The sales pitch was so cheesy that I was watching it like a hawk and ready to pull the plug.
> I bookmarked this thread: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...anaged-Portfolio?p=41674&viewfull=1#post41674 and almost pulled everything out at one point because of the "you can do better yourself" chants in threads like that, and I'll just say I'm glad I didn't.
> For the performance I have seen, 2% is fine by me.


Hystat: Thanks. I hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions. How long have you been in their fund? What fund did you get into? Do they actually do much like changing fund balances after you begin? If you want to reduce the bond percentage will they do it? Are you left out of the loop as far as changes go? Thanks.


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Without going into the pros/cons of managed funds, it's still overpriced for what it is (CDN neutral balanced). Try comparing it to these other CDN Neutral Balanced Funds: RBC Monthly Income A (MER 1.20 - unfortunately no longer available for registered accounts); PH&N Monthly Income D (MER 1.09); Scotia Diversified Monthly Income (MER 1.48); or even CIBC's own Monthly Income Fund - (MER 1.48). TD's Monthly Income Fund is Canadian Equity Balanced, not neutral Balanced.


----------



## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We had CIBC Imperial Service Management for several years. We paid, I think, 1 percent and wrote that off each year.

We were singularly unhappy with the service. It felt like bait and switch. We kept getting a new person, more junior each time. We complained three times. Then left and went with PHN. We have been so pleased with PHN management/servicet that we moved everything over. The only time CIBC responded was after we had made the decision to leave. They called and said perhaps we were in the wrong program. Our understanding is that we were not alone and many people walked. Perhaps the service has improved. But 2 percent is at least 1 percent more than you should be paying for professional management, IMHO.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

fraser said:


> We had CIBC Imperial Service Management for several years. We paid, I think, 1 percent and wrote that off each year.
> 
> .


We've been with CIBC Imperial Service for several months  We didn't pay anything for this service (don't understand what did you pay), the major thing that bothered me - $29 per trade... After several months and severals meetings with advisor, I relaized that they are (advisors) useless and I just moved all accounts to Investor Edge where 1 trade cost $6.95 and started to invest by yourself...

now sure which MF you are talking about, but if this one: http://web.tmxmoney.com/funds-ca-quote.php?qm_symbol=CIB937
MER is 2.25% and pretty modest YTD return 4.73%....looking at this portfolio sector allocation....it very similar if you buy 60% bond ETF and 40% XIC or XIU


----------



## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

run away as far as you can.

why pay for something that you can do yourself ? do you think they have some kind of magical formula to beat the market ?

I recommend: Figure your asset allocation, pick a basket of 3-5 broad market ETF's, deploy your cash, sit back and relax.

If you really want to delegate, go with PHN or a robo-advisor like shareowner


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

There are lots of good "balanced funds" out there, but that's not the point me & others are trying to make. Point is, you can use either ETFs or even low fee index funds to achieve the same exposure as any of those funds, at a fraction of the cost.

Let's make a couple assumptions. You're talking PPS services which are offered to accounts with 100k or more. Let me guess you have a 300k account. The fund gibor linked to is a fund-of-funds with 2.25% MER.

With that example fund, you will pay CIBC $6,750 a year in fees!!! I hope they at least throw in a free honey glazed donut each time you visit!

That mutual fund can be approximated using XBB and XIC (and maybe a little US exposure)... basically for around 0.2% MER. Even with trading costs, that brings your annual fee down to around $600.

So take the mutual fund / wealth management services version and pay $6,500+ A YEAR or do it yourself and pay more like $600 a year

If you decide to go back to CIBC, do these calculations and ask them what they're giving you in exchange for taking several thousand $ in fees from you. They'd better start by giving you a honey glazed donut and some free pens


----------



## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Good call on the XBB and XIC recommendation.

Throw in a ZDV or VDY for some dividend payers, if you like, and you've essentially "unbundled" the pricy fund. 

Costs matter. Nobody would overpay for a pizza by $10 delivered to their front door yet many investors still seem to, unknowingly, overpay for their financial products in the form of thousands of dollars per year.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Don't do it.

james' math says your fees are $6750 per year. That is a LOT of money. You can buy a very nice car for that amount of money every year. Why should you give it to them? 

These balanced funds are generally not a good value for the end customer. The bank wants your money to generate fee income for them. That's why they called you. Do not go and meet them in their office unless you want to be liberated from your money. They do not actively manage your account for you. Yes, you can make changes but YOU need to make the decisions and ask them to make the changes for you. If you're going to do that, might as well do it yourself and save the $6750 per year.

IMO your time would be far better spent learning how to DIY invest.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

What I don't know..... if there is 1 ETF who more or less replicate such MF or Canadian Fixed Income Balanced in general?
btw, as per TDW, the lowest Actual MER (0.39) and Actual Management Fess (0.75%) in this category has CIBC Balanced Index Premium CIB587, also it has 6% yield and 7% YTD return....


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Not sure why the MF needs to be replicated but if you must, I agree with MOA's suggestions. I bought XIC for $9.95 on May 8 and I am up 3.51% to date. I believe in keeping as much of my money in my pocket as possible. MFs are not the benchmark.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

royal, I gave suggestion by myself in the beginning of the thread to replicate it by buying bond ETF and XIU/XIC.... but my question if there is 1 ETF that covering Canadian Fixed Income Balanced benchmark


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

TD says the following are Canadian balanced ETFs: HAA and FIE. They both have lower bond allocations than that CIBC fund, and the fees are higher on both than on the CIBC fund. Doesn't look like any advantage to take them.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

gibor said:


> but my question if there is 1 ETF that covering Canadian Fixed Income Balanced benchmark


What's wrong with XBB?

To the OP - paying 2% for a "monthly income portfolio" is outrageous.
2% _*is*_ the monthly income :biggrin:

After fees, your nominal return will be less than 1% and in real term, it will be -ve.

Unless, of course, they are planning to put you into high yield investments like junk bonds, low grade prefs., REITs, and ex income trusts.
In which case, do you know the risk you are signing up for?

If you want "monthly" income, invest the way you need to - given your risk tolerance, time horizon, and asset allocation, then set up a monthly debit from your investment account to your chequing account via your friendly neighborhood bank.
voilà - you have "monthly" income.


----------



## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks to all for your helpful input. You reassure me that my opinion of these PPS portfolios is correct. They are risk/reward funds: my risk their reward. The reason the issue came up, my wife isn't that tuned into the investment game and I am looking to consolidate my investments so things will be easier for her to manage if I get picked for the Mars trip(one way). Any suggestions. Thanks again for all the valuable tips.


----------



## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

gibor said:


> We've been with CIBC Imperial Service for several months  We didn't pay anything for this service (don't understand what did you pay), the major thing that bothered me - $29 per trade... After several months and severals meetings with advisor, I relaized that they are (advisors) useless and I just moved all accounts to Investor Edge where 1 trade cost $6.95 and started to invest by yourself...


I just got an "invitation" to be with CIBC Imperial Services. Couldn't for the life of me see what benefit they could offer and told them as much. If I had to go from paying $6.95 per trade now with IE, to $29 with CIBC Imperial Services, I'd be one unhappy camper.

After listening to the pitch for 15-20 minutes:
- They couldn't help me with my current gripes with CIBC
- Explain exactly how I would benefit in switching
- New "low cost" Mutual funds, with a min 50k buy in. So I need what $200k just to have a diversified portfolio??? (CAN/US/INT/Bond). Ok sure let me grab 200k from under my mattress for you guys

Told them no thanks, I'm doing fine. The real kicker is that they *rescinded* the invitation rather than show that I refused it. Semantics, but it was the final thing that pissed me off about the whole deal.

The bank isn't my friend. You can't fool me CIBC. Good try


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Xoron said:


> I just got an "invitation" to be with CIBC Imperial Services. Couldn't for the life of me see what benefit they could offer and told them as much. If I had to go from paying $6.95 per trade now with IE, to $29 with CIBC Imperial Services, I'd be one unhappy camper.
> 
> After listening to the pitch for 15-20 minutes:
> - They couldn't help me with my current gripes with CIBC
> ...


 ... wow, the nerve and how tacky. Guess, they can go and kiss good-bye in getting future new business from ya. A pock on the bank! :biggrin:


----------



## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... wow, the nerve and how tacky. Guess, they can go and kiss good-bye in getting future new business from ya. A pock on the bank! :biggrin:


To be honest, CIBC banking has been ok. I have no major gripes with them, just some minor annoyances with fees (don't we all).

In fact, I'm quite happy with CIBC IE:
- Their trades are super cheap (compared to the other big banks). 
- Great FX rates when I buy/sell USD stocks in my RRSP and TFSA (But alas, no USD denominated registered accounts).
- Really nicely refined interface with stock sorting by gains, name, value etc...
- Excellent 13 month transaction history online that I can search through.

I've only ever used CIBC IE and TDWH. IE blows away TDWH on so many fronts it's almost not a fair fight. 

So, aside from the Imperial "pitch" I'm staying put until they do something to push me away.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Okay, thanks for sharing your experience about the "pitch" - I think the Imperial sales rep/department should have done some real homework before trying to pitch a DIY investor, lol.


----------



## chantl01 (Mar 17, 2011)

CIBC actually has some pretty decent index mutual funds that you can use to replicate their managed portfolio funds at a lower cost. It's not as simple as buying a single fund, but it probably is simple enough to explain to a significant other how to maintain. And since rebalancing mutual funds doesn't require a brokerage account or transaction fees, it's less intimidating than going the ETF route. Here's a link to a blog article about how to replicate one of CIBC's managed portfolio funds by using CIBC index funds and getting the weighted management fee down to just over 1%:
http://www.patronized.ca/personal-finance/managed-portfolio/

I hope that's helpful.


----------



## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

I received this ads by email yesterday:

One of Canada's largest index fund line-ups	MER
CIBC Short-Term Bond Index Fund 0.25
CIBC Canadian Bond Index Fund 0.23
CIBC Canadian Index Fund 0.27
CIBC Balanced Index Fund 0.25*
CIBC U.S. Broad Market Index Fund 0.25*
CIBC U.S. Index Fund 0.24
CIBC NASDAQ Index Fund 0.25*
CIBC Global Bond Index Fund 0.35*
CIBC European Index Fund 0.35
CIBC Asia Pacific Index Fund 0.50*
CIBC International Index Fund 0.50*
CIBC Emerging Markets Index Fund 0.50*

ps: I used to bank with CIBC and i hate them.


----------



## retiredat45 (Aug 6, 2013)

Seems to me that if you're on this site reading people's opinions, you have enough interest in the management of your own investments already. I echo what larry81 says - build a solid etf portfolio and you are going to start every year 1.5% ahead of where you'd be having the bank involved. Over time, that savings of cost is going to play a growing role in your total returns. If you want to feel better about taking such a step, work it backward 5 years using actual returns of the ETF portfolio vs a blend of CIBC proprietary funds. Make sure you include the costs involved and let the numbers speak for themselves.....


----------



## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Or even better, just look at theses graphs and feel the pain in your wallet:


----------



## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Own the companies vs. owning the products made and marketed by the companies. You'll do much better over time...


----------



## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

MER, transaction fees, inactivity fees, nsf fees, wire fees, etc. All reasons why canadian banks are so robust and make more than 35% of the TSX 60 !


----------



## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

larry81 said:


> I received this ads by email yesterday:
> 
> One of Canada's largest index fund line-ups MER
> CIBC Short-Term Bond Index Fund 0.25
> ...


Sure, but for what class of the fund? What the rep told me was to get the lower MER, I'd need to invest 50k in a single fund. In the realm of RESPs, (which is what we talked about), that's pretty much impossible. 

The A Class fund of the CIBC U.S. Index Fund has a MER of 1.18%. So their e-mail is very misleading.


----------



## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Xoron said:


> Sure, but for what class of the fund? What the rep told me was to get the lower MER, I'd need to invest 50k in a single fund. In the realm of RESPs, (which is what we talked about), that's pretty much impossible.


Institutional Class...Minimum investment of $50,000 required.


----------



## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

Xoron for a RESP you really cant go wrong with TD e-Series. AFAIK, there is currently no better choice.

ps: It would be great if ShareOwner added RESP support


----------



## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

larry81 said:


> Xoron for a RESP you really cant go wrong with TD e-Series. AFAIK, there is currently no better choice.
> 
> ps: It would be great if ShareOwner added RESP support


That's what I've got for my kids' RESP. Hate TDWH site, love the funds


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Xoron said:


> To be honest, CIBC banking has been ok. I have no major gripes with them, just some minor annoyances with fees (don't we all).
> 
> In fact, I'm quite happy with CIBC IE:
> - Their trades are super cheap (compared to the other big banks).
> ...


Completely agree and was telling the same several times... I finally transfered my last account from TDW to CIBC iE and quite happy with it...got $200 binus and 50 free trades for 60 bus days (used about 25-30 )...
Originally I signed with Imperial services, but when I said that transfering to IE, advisor even said that this is a good decision and didn't try to convince me to stay....
P.S> Transaction history in TDW is riduculous!!!
P.P.S. Yes, I;ve seen that minimum for low balanced MF is 50K, but I think you can buy for 50K , after month or two sell 40K , and leave 10K or whatever you want


----------



## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

I have examined the CIBC PPS portfolios in more detail. Over twenty years the twelve portfolios they offer have geometric mean gains from a low of 8.4% to a high of 9.7%. Then take away 2% fees ( tax ded.) and it doesn't exactly fit in the spectacular category. Moving on.


----------



## dave2012 (Feb 17, 2012)

When I moved all our investments over after years of crap performance with a few 'sales advisors' over to our bank at CIBC, they automatically assumed they would take over and setup some CIBC PPS accounts, showed me reams of paper analysis on each of our holdings and what they suggested.

I had to take the reigns and opened up Edge accounts which I control. Was a bit of a learning curve but I can't be happier managing our own without all the fees, except for $6.95 a trade.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm with CIBC and have no idea what is "CIBC PPS accounts" ... The only real difference between Imperial and Investor Edge - trading fees... Imperial services can be good for people who has no idea what is investing is....


----------



## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

gibor said:


> I'm with CIBC and have no idea what is "CIBC PPS accounts" ... The only real difference between Imperial and Investor Edge - trading fees... Imperial services can be good for people who has no idea what is investing is....


yep, like every thread that has ever been around regarding this, generally, no one knows what it is. There is really no info on the web (some similarly _named _open market products are usually found via google). Most people go on at length about how awful the 2% is (and it probably is, but not everyone pays 2- there is a scale), but they typically have little idea what the product is they are panning. You have to go to SEDAR filings to get info and what comes up is apparently quite limited.
The thread was supposed to be asking those who had experience with it, but it's not a product for DIY investors, so actual experience on this board will almost be zero.

Bottom line: An active, DIY investor should probably stay away - I'm sure someone actively balancing and monitoring their investments is not best served paying someone else to do the same thing. Why would they? 

Some legit (sorta) info may be found over here:
http://www.financialwisdomforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=112440


----------



## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

(hystat: I got your direct forum message. Thank you. I hope you received my reply.) The PPS portfolio CIBC wanted me to take was their Monthly Income Balanced portfolio. It contains(approx.) the following: cash 5%, short term bonds 15%, Canadian bonds 25%, Canadian equities 45%, US equities 5%, Internat. equities 5%. It reports a 20 year mean return of 8.3% with a 2% fee. The last ten years show an 8% mean return less the 2% fee. It might appeal to some but I think I can do better on my own in Investors Edge using mainly a mix of exchange traded funds and commodities.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Read "flash boys" CIBC has no interest in doing that which is best for its customers when they let HFT front run orders which results in the CIBC customer not getting the best fill on their orders. If CIBC is screwing its DIY investors by not giving them the best fills "according to "flash boy" book & letting HFT firms profit from it. Can you trust these guys with mutual funds which give them even more control to steal your money ? No wonder why mutual funds have a lousy track record & to hide the fact they get rid of the old dogs & bring out new ones to hide the track records. It is a game of poker bluff to get a good record so people will invest then steal the money when the pot is full. Who takes the other side of all these trades ?


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

lonewolf said:


> Read "flash boys" CIBC has no interest in doing that which is best for its customers when they let HFT front run orders which results in the CIBC customer not getting the best fill on their orders. If CIBC is screwing its DIY investors by not giving them the best fills "according to "flash boy" book & letting HFT firms profit from it. Can you trust these guys with mutual funds which give them even more control to steal your money ? No wonder why mutual funds have a lousy track record & to hide the fact they get rid of the old dogs & bring out new ones to hide the track records. It is a game of poker bluff to get a good record so people will invest then steal the money when the pot is full. Who takes the other side of all these trades ?


Can you give a link to ""flash boys" CIBC "? I personally always was getting best fills with CIBC EI, but had couple of times problems with TDW


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Hi, gibor

It is a book that I m currently reading. The name of the book "flash boys"

CIBC is not in the title of the book , CIBC is mentioned in the book, along with other brokerage firms the have not put their customers first. I don't think the average investor can tell if they are getting the best fills, I cant, it
would not surprise me if the book was right & everyone is losing a penny here & a penny there


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

lonewolf said:


> Hi, gibor
> 
> It is a book that I m currently reading. The name of the book "flash boys"
> 
> ...


The only problems I had , was with TDW , when I bought PRF at market and they gave me much higher price than was this day at all... after I called and yelled at manager they credited me with difference... never had such issue with CIBC...

and to tell the truth, imho, CIBC deserves respect as a being the major sponsor of CBC 2014 Football World Cup games


----------



## malarcus (Jan 2, 2014)

Good evening,

I have been with Imperial for the last 3 years and I have been enjoying the experience. Due to my type of work (being at sea most part of the year), I can't always use IE and the MF I picked (mawer, steadyhand..) are giving me decents returns.

My advisor will always warn me when he think I may get too reckless with my investments (he did save my money once or twice...). You also have to see the banking side of the business. I dont have millions with them but he always give me a rebate on the rates for credit (CC and mortgage). no fee banking and so on. There is always a meeting I get invited to every 4 month that are somewhat informative (when I can go). 

Could I do better on my own, I will never know. I am sure a sucker for the attention they give me but overall, it as served me fine. You just have to find the right advisor for you.

Marc


----------



## MMal (Jan 4, 2015)

*cibc personal portfolio services*

My personal experience, first of all fees changes based on the dollar value of your investments. Its one fee which is tax deductible for non-registered accounts. fees can be reduced for as low as .80%. there is no other fees, no commission for the advisor, no transaction fee. For some of you who invest with brokerage company's you should know that they charge front end load or back end load. every time they sell or buy any thing inside your portfolio they charge you a percentage. the fee is hidden and they never disclose. I am an IIROC licence advisor with over 25+ experience in market. 2% fee is when you invest only 100k. CIBC has a house holding fee that the fee is calculated based on the dollar value of your total house hold asset between rasp, non-reg, TFSA, RIF……….and one more thing CIBC has a an account that only cost you 6.95 per trade. its a self directed account. ask me question if you need more details. cheers, MM


----------

