# US Marines..gone too far this time?



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

The news media is having a field day showing the video which shows a bunch of US marines standing over the bodies of dead Taliban and urinating on them, in full view of the camera. That video has gone viral all over the world, no doubt will cause more retribution to the US forces in Afghanistan.

More US deaths, more IEDs (roadside bombs) and more ambushes.

Regardless how you feel against your enemy, you don't public do things which dishonor the corps, the US military and the bodies of Islamic fundamentalist fighters...that was a stupid thing to do....now the US is going to pay big time!
In some ways, they are no better than the German SS "death head" squads that executed men, women and children
in the Ukraine, Russia and other occupied countries doing unspeakable atrocities to the bodies!

So much for the "new world order" US president George H Bush (senior) was touting during the '91 Iraqi crisis.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> So much for the "new world order" US president George H Bush (senior) was touting during the '91 Iraqi crisis.


Yes, this is indeed the "new world order".
What Pappy could not do, Junior has achieved - wonderful isn't it.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Doing stuff like this is nothing new...WW2 had Ally forces doing similar stuff, just no Utube. 

Turning kids into killing machines then expecting them to behave politely is typical.

Lets see the politicians in favour of waterboarding cast the first stone at these guys.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Eder said:


> Doing stuff like this is nothing new...WW2 had Ally forces doing similar stuff, just no Utube.


That's just it, absolutely nothing new & no need to go as far back as WW2 to find other examples; much, much worse has been done by all, but people have short term memories. 

I really don't understand the motivation to have captured this on video, considering the potential harm to others in the field and abroad.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> That's just it, absolutely nothing new & no need to go as far back as WW2 to find other examples; much, much worse has been done by all, but people have short term memories.
> 
> I really don't understand the motivation to have captured this on video, considering the potential harm to others in the field and abroad.


I don't know about motivation..but in the the combat field, soldiers become used to death and body parts all over the place, so they just revert to a lower level of intelligence...killing machines..where they have no regard for the other side and basically regard them as sub-humans.

The SS in WWII treatment of Jews, Gypsys and other cultures is an example of atrocities carried out in the field..because there is nothing to stop them.

In this case, just like hunters standing over the carcass of a deer, moose, or bear and positioning the head in various poses for the camera...the same can be said for these "hunters'"..the Taliban being their prey and kill...at this point there is no respect for the dead or themselves..they just do it without any remorse or thought of future consequences.

Going back to Iraq..the abuse of prisoners in the military prison (Abu Grab), where the insurgents were paraded around naked with dog collars and even a female soldier got into the act doing something to them that cannot be mentioned here..She was convicted and sent to military prison.

Going back to the late 60s and Vietnam and the My Lai massacre by US troops that invaded an innocent village and Lt. Calley gave the order to shoot anything that moves..men/women and children..because they couldn't be bothered to interpret which ones were possible guerillas and take them with them as prisoners....
so they just shot them all..or dumped burning napalm on them..

yes..the new world order at work!


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

I see this as just a form of insulting the enemy, something the enemy is good at.
Will it make things worse for the USA over there NO!!

Rather than judge the actions of USA soldiers in combat dealing with terrorist and that is all they are and they don't have any respect for their own people consider what rules the terrorist follow.
Kill everyone, children, old, life has no value to them.

Asking soldiers to fight an enemy that does not have rules can be a challenge.

Remember Black-hawk down, burning the USA flag, suicide bombers, terrorist do not rule as elected governments.

Go stand in the boots of a soldier then tell me what wonderful values you have.


I would never judge the difficult situation these soldiers are in,asking them to try and bring order to area's of the world that have not seen any for many years.
We need to be thankful for the relative peace we have.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

carverman said:


> I don't know about motivation..but in the the combat field, soldiers become used to death and body parts all over the place, so they just revert to a lower level of intelligence...killing machines..where they have no regard for the other side and basically regard them as sub-humans.


Like the case of My Lai and any other war - the motivation is that their friends are being killed and dishonoured in far worse ways than you see on the evening news.... Like in Afghanistan you have Taliban trying every trick in the book (take for example, massacring their own civilians to "place" after a coalition air strike, as caught on video surveillance from above, or beheading prisoners on tape, suicide bombs amongst civilians etc) 

Disrespecting them back is just the natural progression of war without good leadership and training... this isn't exactly a gentleman's game. Of course it looks bad on tv, that's why it takes good leadership to overcome. It looks worse if you shoot a civilian, yet any civilian walking towards you could be carrying a suicide bomb



Daniel A. said:


> Asking soldiers to fight an enemy that does not have rules can be a challenge.
> 
> Go stand in the boots of a soldier then tell me what wonderful values you have.


That's an understatement. We've actually had to loosen our rules in several ways to gain any ground in Afghanistan at all, because it is impossible to fight an enemy who will kill anyone including their own. I don't see the media talking about how we are constantly providing medical care to Afghans to the NA standard or any other type of news that would give people a clue.

That siad I haven't been impressed with some Marines I've met, but there are always bad apples. I find trophy hunting animals pretty disgusting myself, but it's quite acceptable. The difference is animals aren't killing hunters, so soldiers have to be trained not to celebrate not dying themselves all in the name of a good image. If any of you witnessed children being raped and someone was trying to kill you and your friends, you'd probably piss on them yourselves...


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> Remember Black-hawk down, burning the USA flag, suicide bombers, terrorist do not rule as elected governments.


Yes, I do remember. 

I don't have the stomach to post pictures nor do I think it's necessary, but people forget the soldiers [not terrorists], who were injured & killed, were not urinated on, rather, their naked bodies were tied & dragged through the streets like animals; stepped on, burned, maimed, etc.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

This is of course not right and they should be dealt with but is certainly not something new as pointed out. Also pointed out is we don't know how we would feel if we were in their shoes dealing with what they are dealing with. The only way to stop or curtail this sort of thing is through training so soldiers will know how to deal with the situations they find themselves in.


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

The only way to stop it would be pulling out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Killing people and watching people be killed messes you up.

You can't blame these marines. I don't blame them at all.

Humans are animals. Once you take away the rules and expose them to a situation where its an "us or them" scenario, you will see the animal come out.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

It's just strange that we still think in terms of war like in 1876. 

The red guys line up on one side, the blue on the other and they each shoot their weapons in orderly lines. A bunch of peasants get killed and everyone is happy except the dead peasants. Both sides have the same weapons and it's like a chess game for the generals 

Then the weapons got better...and better... and better. If the US wanted to end the war they could throw a few nukes on the place and be done with it. 

No we have to be gentlemanly about it. No civilians get killed. 

Except for the US weapons are so much better than the Taliban's or the Vietnamese. The only recourse is for the enemy to strike when not expected and camouflage themselves in the meantime. 

Now we of the developed world are still really pissed off about this. Why don't these miscreants line up and dress like proper soldiers and stop these tactics. Line up over there so we can easily kill or disarm you...

Except for the enemy combatants it's not a chess game or a joke it's their life and their country. It's not an option to lose they live there.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

It was a stupid thing to do, but young men do dumb things (not just in war time) It was stupid because desecrating the bodies of the enemy will only incite the enemy further, and create public shame/embarrassment for your own forces. 

But the real idiot was the one who videoed it and put it on the internet. What were they thinking?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

OhGreatGuru said:


> But the real idiot was the one who videoed it and put it on the internet.


Sorry, I don't agree.
Whoever took and posted that video did exactly the right thing.
Covering it up does not unwind time and make the problem go away.

What happened is shameful, unpardonable and disgusting, regardless of what happened in 1800, 1939, 2001, and whatever part of history you want to quote.

I think the world needed to see the true face of the so-called "armies of liberation" and the harbingers of democracy and freedom.
Not that we had too many doubts left after the atrocities at Abu Gharib, etc.

Ms. Clinton looked tired, haggard and pathetic during the news conference trying to explain this to the world.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Sorry, I don't agree.
> Whoever took and posted that video did exactly the right thing.
> Covering it up does not unwind time and make the problem go away.


Sorry Harold, but I also don't agree.

The action of the few soldiers [now & in the past] was appalling, no question about that, just like there is no question about the brutal things the Taliban did/does to their own people & others. The Americans will be punished as they have been in previous incidents, there is no doubt about that, how about the Taliban?

No one is suggesting a cover-up, but not everything needs to land online either. Do you really believe there won't be retaliation for this?


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm not blaming the Marines, nor am I condoning or agreeing with their behaviour. I can understand how this happens. 

And if I can understand how human beings can urinate on the dead body of another human being, I certainly am not going to blame someone for video taping it and uploading it. We don't know who or what their intentions may have been. It could have been to incite. It could have been to report. 

If someone does something stupid, you don't place the blame on the person who witnessed it and reported it. Ultimately, we are all accountable for our actions. While I do understand how a young man in a war could be driven to this, it is still a poor decision, and a very small minority of the hundreds of thousands of men and women who serve their countries without embarrassing them.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

financialnoob said:


> *men and women who serve their countries without embarrassing them.*


Sorry... is this even possible?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> It's just strange that we still think in terms of war like in 1876.
> The red guys line up on one side, the blue on the other and they each shoot their weapons in orderly lines. A bunch of peasants get killed and everyone is happy except the dead peasants. Both sides have the same weapons and it's like a chess game for the generals .


I don't think we do B. The former wars were wars of attrition. Although there were established " rules" about humanely treating prisoners, (Geneva Convention), during the fog of war, lots of atrocities were still done..the bombing of Dresden..a German city of no military value in exchange for the Germans bombing Coventry.
The US civil war, WWI and WWII were, for the most part, still wars of attrition, even though both sides didn't line up, march towards each other.... and wait to fire when they saw the "whites of their eyes".



> No we have to be gentlemanly about it. No civilians get killed.


Well the rules have certainly changed since operation Desert Storm ('91) and 9/11. We are fighting an enemy combantant without a uniform, that infiltrates and strikes when least suspected, killing their own in the process..all in the name of Allah..
or so we are beleived to think. Whether it can be thought as a JIHAD (a holy war sanctioned by Allah against the infidel dogs) or just a Islamic fundamentalist subversive group that prays on one hand, then kills without any discrimination or moral
standards on the other..rules of war only apply to the side that still has a structured military presence in Afghanistan..
and the US appears to be starting to lose that because of the way the war is conducted there. 



> Except for the US weapons are so much better than the Taliban's or the Vietnamese. The only recourse is for the enemy to strike when not expected and camouflage themselves in the meantime.


It's guerrilla warfare and the Taliban are not the first to practice it, (war with no rules), the Russians in WWII, the North Vietnamese..some had uniforms, some didn't..they didn't care what happened to themselves in order to achieve their
objective.



> Now we of the developed world are still really pissed off about this. Why don't these miscreants line up and dress like proper soldiers and stop these tactics. Line up over there so we can easily kill or disarm you...
> Except for the enemy combatants it's not a chess game or a joke it's their life and their country. It's not an option to lose they live there.


I presume this is a cynical opinion on what is happening over there..B? 
In a country that has experienced war for most of their existance, and certainly since the 80s, when the Russians invaded and shot and killed villagers without discrimination of who was who, these people (Taliban fighters/Pakistani fighters in the name of Islam) , are not certainly not going to expose themselves to US warplanes and modern weapons. 

They will lie low and strike at the US invaders of their country when the opportunity arises to maximize the damage on *their* enemy..the US soldier.

Now what somebody else mentioned is probably true..there have been atrocities commited by the enemy combatants
that resulted in the US Marines doing this act of moral idignation on the bodies of the enemy. 

In olden days, the Romans, the Saracens, the Turks, after the battle was over and their side won, would go around and "tend" to those wounded or still living an immobilized on the battle field by dealing the final "coupe de grace"..that
is where that term comes from. 

The main difference here is the media exposure of having it documented on video , then released somehow so
the media got a ahold of it...and of course now...the other side..the Taliban, that will certainly see a foreign invader doing
that to their Jihad fighters...a crime that will not go unpunished in the most brutal manner..future beheading US soldiers on TV!

The US will pay for it, over and over again, as the struggle in Afghan goes on and will..until the US have finally had
enough and pull out, like the Russians before them...then finally things will go back to where they were in 2001..

..the Afghans will continue grow poppies to feed opium to the world, and the Taliban religious police will punish and execute
women as they did before the US invaded their country.....nothing will have been changed for the better..
and several thousand US and Canadian lives would have been lost in the process...for NOTHING!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Sorry, I don't agree.
> Whoever took and posted that video did exactly the right thing.
> Covering it up does not unwind time and make the problem go away.
> 
> Ms. Clinton looked tired, haggard and pathetic during the news conference trying to explain this to the world.


This can be considered a "US black eye"..not only is the conduct of the US Marine, a time honored military faction of the US gov't at stake here, but the embarrassment of this action in the eyes of the world..and particulary
in the eyes of the Islamic world, whether combatants or not..they will remember this..it's like Black Hawk down in reverse...and I'm sure that we will hear incidents of retribution from the other side for this... and for the capture and disposal at sea of Bin Laden...

All this will only perpetuate the struggle of a people that want their own way of life and be left alone...when the US have had enough and pull out someday..Karzai ,the puppet governor of the US powers will be beheaded along with his government lackies and the Taliban will declare a moral victory on TV to show the world that Islam cannot be defeated
by the West.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

carverman said:


> and several thousand US and Canadian lives would have been lost in the process...for NOTHING!


For nothing? But defense contractors are making a fortune? Are you sure it's for nothing? This is an economic forum after all

Interesting observation - on NATO bases local afghans dig and lay pipes by hand, build, make cement and clean etc while on US bases all is imported by contractors, including shiny new digging machines and cement (yes, cement) Heaven forbid the Afghans get some economic benefit. That's exactly why the US failed to reconstruct a better Iraq as highlighted on the evening news. But, they did accomplish their true objectives and more


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

financialnoob said:


> I'm not blaming the Marines, nor am I condoning or agreeing with their behaviour. I can understand how this happens.
> 
> If someone does something stupid, you don't place the blame on the person who witnessed it and reported it. Ultimately, we are all accountable for our actions. *While I do understand how a young man in a war could be driven to this, it is still a poor decision, and a very small minority of the hundreds of thousands of men and women who serve their countries without embarrassing them.*


The problem with this "act of idignation on the enemy" is that it is considered extremely "rude" in the eyes of Islam,
to do that to a body of a dead Islamic person or fighter. Whether the young soldiers had a reason to do that, we don't know and probably at this point, the world which has now seen the video doesn't care either...
the behaviour of that specific group of US marines r*eflects on the US Military moral conduct *(if such a thing still exists), the rules of engagement, and one's own moral upbringing before joining the military..... which tends to
remove all traces of moral upbringing in the process of training to kill the enemy. 
Stanley Kubrick's.."Full Metal Jacket"...(a term referring to military ammunition used in a M16 rifle,) is about a young
marine in training in boot camp, that cannot adjust to the strict rigors of marine training to become a "killing machine".
He ends up blowing his brains out in a washroom with his own rifle to escape...

I remember from my military training (reserves)when I was a young lad of 16-17..I was stripping my automatic rifle, cleaning it after target practice on the ranges..the group NCO comes up to me and asks me the fundamental question..

"What is the purpose of your rifle, gunner?" (I was searching to come up with a reply). He answers for me..
To KILL THE ENEMY! TO KILL THE ENEMY, gunner..TO KILL THE ENEMY! Remember that!"

After that being imprinted into my brain..I was ready to kill the enemy..if the opportunity arose.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Carver, military culture has been completely redesigned since the mid 90's following the Somalia Affair (which is actually far worse than this situation). It's not the same military you were in at all. I'm pretty sure I already explained a rifle is used for far more than killing. It actually went to the other extreme in say Rwanda, were a peacekeeper's rifle was just a show of force, and could not even be used to fire warning shots. These tight restrictions contributed to the 10 dead peacekeeper's under Senator Roméo Dallaire's command. Rwanda was a completely different situation, and now so is Afghanistan. Let's not use Hollywood movies as example of current US military please.



> The debacle in Somalia would be so paralyzing that it would lead to an unwillingness from the international community to respond to future problems, like the Rwandan Genocide. The Somalia Affair thus had a direct impact on how the international community would make foreign policy with a crippling ‘Somalia syndrome’ that would lead to the sense of caution in intervening in the Rwanda Genocide and in the Balkans.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> The Americans will be punished as they have been in previous incidents


Really? How were the perpetrators of Abu Gharib punished?



> there is no doubt about that, how about the Taliban?


OK, so it is arm for an arm, an eye for an eye, is that it?
If that is indeed the plan, then why all this sham about freedom and democracy?
Why spend trillions on this sham?
Over 10 years back right in 2001, they could have gone in and razed the entire country into the ground - Taliban and all. End of story.



> No one is suggesting a cover-up, but not everything needs to land online either. Do you really believe there won't be retaliation for this?


Yes, most likely there will be some sort of retaliation and that is exactly what these so called armies of freedom and democracy need to realize.
They need to understand that if they choose to commit such actions, and if it gets out, not only will there be armed retaliation by the terrorists, but the whole world will watch.
They are putting their country and its esteemed leaders to shame - they need to understand that.

Is this what the American tax payer wants, who is funding this entire operation on the back of an unprecedented debt to their country?
Oh wait, this is a NATO mission - so we are also funding this.
So is this what you want in return for your tax dollars?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> 1. Really? How were the perpetrators of Abu Gharib punished?
> 2. OK, so it is arm for an arm, an eye for an eye, is that it?


1. Are you really suggesting that the US is another lawless Afghanistan?  Anyway, that was in Iraq & for another thread. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

2. The current Afghanistan war is a long & complex one as you know, and one which I supported [not speaking about Iraq], and one which you do not and your prerogative. 

I supported that war because it was in direct response to the multiple, 4 to be exact [unprovoked] terrorists attacks of 9/11, in which close to 3000 people [not 3, 30, or 300] lost their lives in a matter of hours [don't forget the other attacks before and after 9/11]. I don't know if this list is totally accurate, but it is easy enough to verify:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html

- Where is/was the key fight against Islamic extremism? 
- Where did/do the al-Qaeida/Taliban & other type terrorists train? 
- Where did the leader of al-Qaeida live? 

Terrorism has escalated since 9/11, so I gather you'll blame it on the actions of the US for the 'eye for an eye' defense.  

Anyway, I have neither the time nor desire to get into further discussions/arguments, so we'll just have to agree to disagree; I made my point and so did you.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I didn't say I don't support the war in Afghanistan.
But do our soldiers necessarily needs to degrade themselves in this manner, and put our countries and leaders to shame thus?
Not to mention, provoking retaliation as you have rightly suggested.
This is clearly not an isolated incident, but merely the latest in a long series of abuses.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> I didn't say I don't support the war in Afghanistan.
> But do our soldiers necessarily needs to degrade themselves in this manner, and put our countries and leaders to shame thus?
> Not to mention, provoking retaliation as you have rightly suggested.
> *This is clearly not an isolated incident, but merely the latest in a long series of abuses*.


Just heard on the news that the 4 marines have been identified. Now will they be brought up on charges?..or just secretly "slapped on the hand and told not to do it again!"

BTW..I know that worse atrocities have been committed on the living, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan/Kosovo..I'm sure..and none of this makes it right...but or some reason in a war zone, something lowers the standards of decency in human nature,
like tossing a grenade at the enemy combantants..hiding in a house with a family of Afghans huddled together....and in circumstances such as those, it is thought better to sustain "collateral damage" as the military refers to it..than sustain
personal injury...after all a child's leg or face blown off by a grenade is just too bad, because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time!

But degrading the bodies of freedom fighters..is another matter...the marines had a choice there as the dead Taliban were no longer a threat to them after they got gunned down..I'm surprised that they didn't put their foot on each body and slap "high fives", congratulating each other on the trophy kills first..then urinating on them as a final act of humiliation to Islam. 

While the Taliban may be brutal in their policies towards women/girls who can be executed in a soccer stadium for minor imfractions of their strict one sided "islamic" edicts...that does not give the US military "carte blanche" to treat the
slain as mongrels either.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Though I disagree with what the soldiers did, and think it was incrediably poor judgement. I can't imagine what kind of scenarios they have been though, and their states of mind. Do I think what they did is right - absolutely not, but I also don't think they should be charged for anything. It seems wrong for the government that sent them there and put them in that situation in the first place to then punish them.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Sorry, I don't agree.
> Whoever took and posted that video did exactly the right thing.
> Covering it up does not unwind time and make the problem go away.


I had the distinct impression the 4 knew perfectly well they were being filmed. They were all nicely lined up facing the observer, and peeing in unison. They were likely posing for a "trophy" video being taken by one of their buddies for their personal use. I don't think it was a do-gooder who "caught them act" and wanted to expose them for the ugly thing they were doing.

The videographer (or whoever put it on the internet) should probably start running now. When they get cashiered for their stupidity the four marines are going to want to take it out on somebody - and they have all been trained to kill.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

carverman said:


> I don't think we do B. The former wars were wars of attrition. Although there were established " rules" about humanely treating prisoners, (Geneva Convention), during the fog of war, lots of atrocities were still done..the bombing of Dresden..a German city of no military value in exchange for the Germans bombing Coventry.
> The US civil war, WWI and WWII were, for the most part, still wars of attrition, even though both sides didn't line up, march towards each other.... and wait to fire when they saw the "whites of their eyes".
> 
> 
> ...



FYI the American Revolution and American Civil War also used guerrilla tactics.. I find it amusing that the nation that created this style of warfare now is outraged by these tactics and condemns it. I also find it ironic that they have had to combat it since then (Vietnam, Taliban etc.)

I`ve never understood war. Mostly because I have never had to. Thankfully, I live in a country with freedoms because others that chose to bear arms to provide me with these freedoms, which I thoroughly enjoy and often forget, were willing to do so. Hopefully,someday, we will all get to experience these freedoms. However, I find it more likely that we will exterminate our species before we set aside our differences and tolerate each other. I am puzzled that one person`s freedom or beliefs must come at the expense of another`s lack or loss of freedom or beliefs.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

londoncalling said:


> FYI the American Revolution and American Civil War also used guerrilla tactics.. I find it amusing that the nation that created this style of warfare now is outraged by these tactics and condemns it. I also find it ironic that they have had to combat it since then (Vietnam, Taliban etc.)


Yes, you are right, the American Civil war has many incidents of guerilla tactics. The Union ammunition/supply boats/trains being blown and the soldiers guarding them killed before the supply convoys reached their destination. But on the battle field, that may have been the last war for US forces where both sides lined up with cannons and faced each other waiting for the order to advance.

In WWI, trench warfare was similar but restricted because of the heavy barrage and wilting German machine gun fire, that left most of the Allied solders killed or wounded to die in mudholes, as the ambulances could not get to them.

In WWII, the fighter and bomber aircraft changed the rules of war again (Blitzkrieg), and their were lots of guerilla tactics..raids to sabotage the German nuclear program and V2 rocket program.... comes to mind.

But wars never solve anything long term...except maybe in Hilter's case, who sacrificed his elite soldiers on the fields of Russia (Stalingrad/ The "mother of all tank battlles at Kursk in the Ukraine), and his navy early in the war..and in the end took the cowards way out.... rather than face the Neurembourg trials and be hanged as a war criminal. 

His demise in the Berlin bunker signalled the end of the Third Reich and the complete occupation of Germany for many years, HOWEVER, the Stalinist era, where the former ally becomes an enemy against the west and the beginning of the cold war..and thankfully not the trigger for nuclear innihlation ...which almost happened in October 1962 (Cuban missle crisis) 
...and the world almost came to the brink of WWIII!



> I`ve never understood war. Mostly because I have never had to. Thankfully, I live in a country with freedoms because others that chose to bear arms to provide me with these freedoms, which I thoroughly enjoy and often forget, were willing to do so.


Canada paid the price for our freedom we enjoy in WWI and WWII. The Canadian Memorial at Vimy Ridge stands
for eternity to remind us of the cost of freedom.. It is the image of Canada, a mother crying over her lost sons....

*Crosby, Stills & Nash..."the cost of freedom"*
(How do we) find the cost of freedom, buried in the ground,
Mother earth will swallow you, lay your body down
Find the cost of freedom, buried in the ground
Mother earth will swallow you, lay your body down
(Find the cost of freedom buried in the ground)


In WWI, there was no resolution..only an armistice signed by the Germans to stop hostilities after several MILLION of the combined armies left dead or wounded, and Germany was practically broke by then..and I'm sure that Britain, France and Canada were close to being broke as it costs a lot to keep a full scale war going for several years.

WWII happened because Britain did not stop Hitler until it was too late (the invasion of Poland) and as a result, over 50 million inhabitants of all countries lost their lives (combants, 6 million Jews in the Nazi extermination camps, ordinary citizens caught up in the war.

*Gord Lightfoot wrote a haunting song about this...(PROTOCOL)*
"Who are these ones who would lead us now
To the sound of a thousand guns
Who’d storm the gates of hell itself
To the tune of a single drum

Where are the girls of the neighborhood bars
Whose loves were lost at sea
In the hills of France and on German soil
From Saigon to Wounded Knee

Who come from long lines of soldiers
Whose duty was fulfilled
In the words of a warriors will
And protocol

Where are the boys in their coats of blue
Who flew when their eyes were blind
Was God in town for the Roman games
Was he there when the deals were signed

Who are the kings in their coats of mail
Who road by the cross to die
Did they all go down into worthiness
Is it wrong for a king to cry

And who are these ones who would have us now
Whose presence is concealed
Whose nature is revealed
in a time bomb!"


To understand the scale of how much 50 million represents...imagine almost twice the population of Canada perishing!

The Korean war did not result in any final resolution inspite of thousands upon thousands dead..the Korean peninsula is still divided to this day with an iron curtain, since both sides are stilll technically at war.. there was no armistice..only a ceasefire..and time will tell what is going to happen there!

Vietnam war was another place that the US got involved (like Iraq) and it shouldn't have. The US for all their efforts, loss of lives did not bring a solution to to the Vietnamese problem..but hightailed out of there at the last minute leaving the population of south Vietnam at the mercy of the the NVA.

The US involvement in Afghanistan was because the Taliban were sheltering Bin Laden after the 9/11 attack on NYC,
and "Dubye" went gunning for him after the Taliban wouldn't hand him over..and told the US.."he is our guest".!

Like Canada, the US should have pulled out out 10 years of basically trying to keep the Taliban out and trying to
instill western forms of gov't. IT IS NOT GOING TO WORK. Even though the some of the Canadian forces are
left behind to train the Afghan army ,,which BTW does not have the resources to stop the Taliban that will
be infiltrating the villages and homes of the Afghans threatening to murder the families of Afghan soldiers,
if the Afghan soldier does not "turn himself in" and either join them or face execution of his family and himself...

Just like in Vietnam, the US is NOT going to win the war in Afghanistan..which will continue to drive the US
into bankruptcy and default on their debt!



> Hopefully,someday, we will all get to experience these freedoms. However, I find it more likely that we will exterminate our species before we set aside our differences and tolerate each other. I am puzzled that one person`s freedom or beliefs must come at the expense of another`s lack or loss of freedom or beliefs.


Peace on earth..a nice motherhood statement that we sing at Christmas in our generous moods of gift giving and celebration,
while a goal that all mankind should strive for..in reality probably will never happen, while mankind is still ruining the earth
and it's natural resources....

*I think that this song (ONE TIN SOLDIER) summarizes it quite well..*.
Listen children to a story that was written long ago
'bout a kindom on a mountain and the valley folk below
on the mountain was a treasure buried deep beneath a stone
and the valley people swore they'd have it for their very own

CHORUS: go ahead and hate your neighbor
go ahead and cheat a friend
do it in the name of heaven
you could justify it in the end
There won't be any trumpets blowing 
come the judgment day 
on the bloody morning after
One tin soldier rides away

So the people of the valley sent a message up the hill,
asking for the buried treasure, tons of gold for which they'd kill.
Came an answer from the kingdom "with our brothers we will share. 
All the secrets of our mountain, all the riches buried there."

Now the valley cried with anger,"mount your horses, draw your swords"
And they killed the mountain people, so they won their just reward.
Now they stood beside the treasure, on the mountain dark and red.
Turned the stone and looks beneath it; PEACE ON EARTH was all it said.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> Sorry... is this even possible?


Of course it is. 

Marines Help Afghan Kids go to School

Marines help repair school in Thailand 

Army helps bring virtual health care to Albanian hospitals

Basrah Residents to enjoy more clean water

There are tons more. Of course there's only one link from the mainstream media, as they prefer to report on the more flashy, gory stuff. While the military is trained to kill, it is also understood that there is extensive work to do after the killing which are just as important to affect real change, from schools to hospitals to other important infrastructure projects. 

But like most things, the majority of people are fine except for a few loose screws. The overwhelming majority of Catholics aren't child molesters, but the few that are tarnish the rest.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

financialnoob said:


> There are tons more. Of course there's only one link from the mainstream media, as they prefer to report on the more flashy, gory stuff. While the military is trained to kill, it is also understood that there is extensive work to do after the killing which are just as important to affect real change, from schools to hospitals to other important infrastructure projects.


We are not talking about Thailand, Bashrah,Albania or other areas of US involvement..we are discussing what happened in Afghanistan and the 4 marines that did the unspeakable act in front of a camera. 

The Canadian military was over there for nearly 10 years and helped to build schools. roads, hospitals and power dams with a big donation from Canada. Our men and women are TOP NOTCH professional soldiers and are to be commended for doing a difficult job under very difficult circumstances. Our boys faced the Taliban and got blown up from roadside bombs...but our boys never disgraced our corps that way!



> like most things, the majority of people are fine except for a few loose screws. The overwhelming majority of Catholics aren't child molesters, but the few that are tarnish the rest.


There will always be a few child molesters and loose screws in society, and they do a lot of damage..but generally not openly in front of cameras doing indignities to human bodies. This is low level animalistic behaviour. 

There used to be an expression..where one "aw sh#t! wipes out 10 "atta boys!" ...
and frankly the US marines, no matter what good deeds they have done in the past..have a serious black eye imposed on the honor of the corps.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

carverman: Those examples weren't meant to defend the 4 Marines from the original post, just to point out to KaeJS that soldiers can do good as well.

It is a black eye, absolutely. Though again, I find the reference to doing it in front of a camera a bit weird. It almost implies it would have been not as bad if it happened without the camera. The camera itself is not really part of this story. It only captured what had happened.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I don't mean to start a pissing contest.......excuse the pun... but remember what brought our own airbourne regiment to the ground??? ....Difference being Canada was so disgraced they axed the whole regiment ... Reality is it's war, people die, right or wrong sh$t happens and this incident is probably small potatoes of other stuff that happens in the background.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

DanFo said:


> I don't mean to start a pissing contest.......excuse the pun... but remember what brought our own airbourne regiment to the ground??? ....Difference being Canada was so disgraced they axed the whole regiment ... Reality is it's war, people die, right or wrong sh$t happens and this incident is probably small potatoes of other stuff that happens in the background.


Yes, that's a good point. How quickly we forget about the embarassment
that caused our military. The torture/murder of the little Somali boy was beyond belief!

<from online sources>
The Somalia Affair was a Canadian military scandal in the mid-1990s. It began with the brutal 1993 beating death of a Somali teenager, Shidane Arone, at the hands of two Canadian soldiers participating in the United Nations humanitarian efforts in Somalia. The crime, documented by photos, shocked the Canadian public and brought to light internal problems in the Canadian Airborne Regiment that went beyond the two soldiers directly involved. 

Questions were asked about *why 2 Commando was chosen for that mission despite disciplinary problems at the time*. Perhaps most damaging to the leadership of the Canadian military was how it reacted after the events became public, as accusations of covering up the event surfaced.

Eventually a public inquiry was called. Despite being controversially cut short by the government at the time led by Prime Minister Jean Chrétien and Minister of National Defence David Collenette, the Somalia Inquiry found deep problems in the leadership of the Canadian Forces. T*he affair led to the disbanding of Canada's elite Canadian Airborne Regiment, greatly damaged the morale of the Canadian Forces, and damaged both the domestic and international reputation of Canadian soldiers.* <end of extraction>

And Canada did the right thing to axe the entire airborne regiment..as they were not fit to be part of the military.
Yes...sh*t happens..yes we know that from previous military history...including incidents of friendly fire....
but still this does not excuse the military when engaged in a mission. 

Unlike the Somali affair, the degradation seen on video of dead Taliban fighters will have a more serious impact
on the US military..both from the point of world reputation and reprisals by the Taliban fighters.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

DanFo said:


> I* don't mean to start a pissing contest.......excuse the pun.*.. but remember what brought our own airbourne regiment to the ground??? ....Difference being Canada was so disgraced they axed the whole regiment ... Reality is it's war, people die, right or wrong sh$t happens and this incident is probably small potatoes of other stuff that happens in the background.


Yes, you did mean to start it didn't you?..otherwise why would you have mentioned it in the first place?


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

nahh just twisted sense of humour....Our Airbourne even with some shadey people inside was the wrong regiment for that peace keeping job...and The marines well its hard to be in a war for 10 years without building up some resentment and hate for the enemy. Their mistake is going to set them back for a lot of the good they may have done there and for sure the ones in the video and a few behind the scenes are going to be punished.


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