# Builder Screwed my Home -(Please help)



## jonah (Oct 12, 2015)

Hello Guys:

I recently visited the site where my home is being built. My family and I immediately noticed defect bricks installed and very poor workman-ship from the builder. I am very saddened, depressed, and cannot believe that my builder who had sold me this house for over 650K would and had alredy taken huge deposit, would consider this to be professional work. The bricks are bad alover the house wherever it has been installed. Looks like the brick layer instead of stopping continued to use the damaged bricks and on top of that the builder rushed and also did poor workmanship.

Back of the house - you can see bricks are dented









Side of the bricks, I have several more examples of where there are lot of inconsistencies and bad bricks









What can I do, I went to builder sales location but they were closed today. They have already delayed my house more than three or four times, and I was told that I qualify for something $7000 in penalty paypable by tarion for delays caused by the builder but now it seems there would be more delays and I would never accept such exterior of the house in such shape. I am already renting a place which is costing me over 2000, and thinking that it would not be ready in few months is more burden on me and my family.


What is your opinion and suggestion


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It appears the bricks are just the way homes are built these days, and have been for quite some time.

They are purposefully dented, banged up and off colour to add some character to the large wall of bricks. It they were all identical the house would take on an "institutional" look.

Every generation of home builders seem to alter the bricks a little.

There was yellow bricks with black in them, bricks with matching colored mortar slapped on them, banged up bricks..........people want variety.

That is a fine looking home..........brick up to the second storey, instead of vinyl siding........rock ledges, insert above the windows........which look like a higher quality grade of window.

It looks okay to me that the brick layer did a good job of staggering the brick.

I would also advise patience with the builder. It takes time to build quality, and a couple delays are a minor inconvenience compared to "rushing" the builder to finish.

The contractor depends on trades......who might be behind schedule themselves. Demand they hurry it up..........and they will, but you might not be happy with the results.

Just my opinion of course.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My son is a professional fence installer, and he takes great pride in his work.

Every once in awhile a home owner will come out and give him advice all day long, which only slows him down and irritates his crew.

One home owner had a 20 foot drop from the front of their yard to the steep ravine in the back.

When they put the fence in rolling with the terrain, the home owner was upset.

They wanted the "top" of the fence to remain level. My son said they could do it that way, but it would look stupid and would be very costly.

They would have a 6 foot high fence at the front of their property and a 26 foot high fence at the back.................

Unless the builder is doing some shoddy workmanship.............I would encourage them to take the time to do their best work.

I assume you looked at model homes from the builder and know what kind of work they do ?


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## jonah (Oct 12, 2015)

This is absolutely not acceptable, this is not what I signed up for. I have never seen a home with bricks like this where there are dented and deshaped so much that it alters the look of the house. In the same neighborhood, the houses that have been completed, their bricks don't look weird and the spacng between them as well look fine. I can understand the the color being of different shades within a pattern but so much variation in bricks shape tell me that this is just a bad lot that ended up being on my house.

I am not the only person who is saying there is something weirdly wrong with this, all my family members, and friends who actually own houses say that this is definitely bad work and bad material.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

I've seen the textured brick that sags is talking about; I don't think it's quite like the photos you posted; they're less dented looking.

If it were me, I would try to find the source of the brick - maybe there's a label on a palette that the bricks were delivered on. If you can find a manufacturer and a product name, you might be able to find a web page from the manufacturer to see what the brick should look like, or take a drive if they're not too far away. "Soldiering" the bricks above the window with the keystone, and the stone sills are not generally the signs of poor, hurried workmanship - just the opposite, it takes extra time to do that.

Also, didn't you sit down with the builder and select brick style and colour, windows, shingles, etc. There should be some paperwork that lists what you agreed upon.

Edit... just did a quick search... check out Sarasota here... http://www.bramptonbrick.com/node/158


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## jonah (Oct 12, 2015)

Thank you Userkare

Yes this seems to be it, you see how it is not dented while the one on my houses are extremely. The side of the house has very few dented ones, it is the back side that got most of the junk. Following is what it should look like











When we sat down in design room, the sales agent told us to go around neighborhood and check how brick looks on already built houses and pick one that we like. When we came back, we gave her the house number of the home that had the brick installed that we selected for our house. The house number we picked turned out to be the house of the sales agent, and she knew exactly what brick we were looking for, when we looked at the sample, it didn't show any dents otherwise we would not have picked. There were 4 of us at the sales center at that time. I should have a document that would list the part number of the brick, but from memory it is Sarasota and i still remeber where the sales agent house is located and i will try to see if it matches the bricks on my house and if they have dents like mine.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

I just randomly searched Canadian brick manufacturers and scanned for something that looked similar to your photos. If you truly have Brampton Brick "Sarasota", then the dents don't look right. You might have a variant of that, though. I'm just finding it hard to believe that any builder would purposely use damaged materials on the exterior of a house, and not expect the purchaser to be upset and want it re-done. If they want to cut corners, it's usually where you won't ever see it - until it needs to get ripped out many years later. Also, I can't imagine a brick manufacturer allowing damaged brick to leave their facility. I would think if something went wrong with a production run, they would just pulverize them and re-use the raw materials. How could they get dented like that after manufacture is a mystery to me; I thought that brick is not soft enough to be deformed by pressure, it would chip or crack instead. They're not Styrofoam brick!

When we had our house custom built in 1996, we were given a list of approved suppliers. We drove from place to place to view samples of bricks, shingles, windows & doors, plumbing & elect fixtures, carpets, ceramic tiles, paint - basically everything beyond the concrete, lumber, drywall, and nails. We were quite worn out by the end of it, and maybe some of our choices were rushed. We gave the builder our hand-scribbled list of selected styles & colours; he had it typed-up as part of the contract, and we signed it. In this case, there could be no complaint that we didn't get what we wanted. Now, almost 20 years later, we sometimes look at a feature of our house that we aren't 100% happy with and say "I wish we thought of that when we built it"; we can't blame the builder, though.

I hope you can resolve this issue without a major hassle. It looks like a very nice home, and it would be a shame to live in it believing that you did not get what you paid for. I still would want to be 100% certain that the brick is actually damaged ( a letter from the manufacturer ? ), and not just a bizarre dented style that you didn't realize you had chosen, before confronting the builder with accusations.

In any case, let us know what happens, and good luck!


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

If it ends up that you do have a basis for this issue (i.e. they used damaged bricks or a brick style not selected by the purchasers), AND you are still willing to purchase the house (like location, style, etc.), it seems to me you should expect to negotiate an adjustment to the purchase price. We have done this for other building issues in the past. I don't know what a reasonable adjustment would be though - does anyone have a suggestion? Would it be in the range of $2000? Again, only if there is clearly some negligence here.
I'd suggest that after living there for a few months you'd stop noticing the bricks (but would occasionally look up and wince


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## jonah (Oct 12, 2015)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> If it ends up that you do have a basis for this issue (i.e. they used damaged bricks or a brick style not selected by the purchasers), AND you are still willing to purchase the house (like location, style, etc.), it seems to me you should expect to negotiate an adjustment to the purchase price. We have done this for other building issues in the past. I don't know what a reasonable adjustment would be though - does anyone have a suggestion? Would it be in the range of $2000? Again, only if there is clearly some negligence here.
> I'd suggest that after living there for a few months you'd stop noticing the bricks (but would occasionally look up and wince


This will severely devalue my house, i don't how much masonary works costs but who would want to buy a house like this? I called the sales center and they are permanently closed. I will try to get in touch with their head quarter and notify them of this. I will not accept any money from builder as compensation, I am considering It would be either, I would get my lawyer to cancel the contract and sue for damages/time lost or the builder has to redo the whole work.

I fear that down the road if i ever need to sell this, it would be greatly/severely devalued.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

It appears to me this is not "damaged" brick. The patterns are too consistent. So it is likely some kind of "textured" brick made deliberately for some incomprehensible esthetic reason. (My grandfather the bricklayer would spin in his grave seeing bricks deliberately made to look like this.) I agree it's ugly, but probably not 'defective". you should at least be able to get the builder to supply the make and model of the brick, and a catalog showing whether or not it is actually supposed to look that way.

The real question is whether it is the exterior finish you agreed to pay for. Search all your documents, and go back and check the model home you picked. Sounds to me like they made a mistake in specifying the brick pattern.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Reminds me of a subdivision I worked on, all of the houses were slightly unique, but more or less similar.
The bricklayers did one house with a "weeping" joint mortar method.
http://masterbrick.com/products/mortar/weeping-joint

The supervisor working for the contractor freaked out..
He thought they were drunk or something and insisted they fix it.

The bricklayers were insisting that it really was a style of bricklaying.
Truth be told they did consume at least a box of beer every day but the quality of their work was not horrible or anything, and these were not $500k (today dollar) houses.

Big fight over it, I'll have to go back sometime and tour the neighbourhood to see who won because I don't remember more about it than that.

As an aside, I did my chimney in that style, going for a rustic look, and when a buddy came over to visit he asked if I was drunk when i built it..
"no, it's a thing", ah well.. used portland in the mortar too, def. not gonna point it now


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

PIncer, a house went up in our neighbourhood with the "weeping" mortar when I was young. My then 4-year old brother went around just after they put the brick up, and cleaned up the joints with his plastic spade...

Very expensive to fix...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

That's what our rented townhouse has circa 1967, but the mortar is coloured to match the brick.

It looks pretty good actually, and since there are a lot of townhomes in the area, giving them different styles and bricks breaks up the monotony.

I have seen whole subdivisions where homes are all the exact same bricks and colour...........kind of weird.

Here is a brick manufacturer featuring dented and bruised bricks on their website. Not as extreme perhaps, but pretty banged up looking.

The brick colour may show the dents more than a dark colour would as well.

http://www.riversidebrick.com/products/clay-brick/machine-molded-brick/

"Distressed" is a very popular style these days. From furniture that looks all beat up to homes that look 100 years old.

Very popular are loft conversions in old factories, mills, and warehouses. Banged up wood floors, cracking brick interior.........."wonderful ambience, we want to buy it"

I would say if the OP doesn't like the look, perhaps talk to the builder about swapping the house for another. 

The builder can always sell this house instead of the other.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

sags said:


> ... I would say if the OP doesn't like the look, perhaps talk to the builder about swapping the house for another. The builder can always sell this house instead of the other.


^+1 Worth checking into.

Your mention of 'distressed' reminds me of a purchase of live flowers I had delivered to my mother last year. The florist arranged the planting in a 'distressed' wooden folk art box. My Dad immediately sent them back and insisted they be put into a new basket. He told me _"that other wooden box was all beat to crap. It looked used and I knew you wouldn't have paid good money for something like that."_


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## Bowzer (Feb 25, 2015)

I agree that the brick in those photos seems to be a style, not defective brick. 

So the question will come down to what does the paperwork state for brick style.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I like the look...nice house,quality windows,stone sills,cap stone in the lintels with mock pilasters...whats not to like?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Not that it is 'right' but the bricklayer obviously planned it(majority on the back)
I am sure a few bundles are almost always 'damaged' not from factory but from shipping(multiple handling---those flatted dents look like strap marks from pallets?
Though far from fun i am sure the bricklayer can swap out some
I doubt this is really the 'builder' at fault
Most likely the bricklayer who prob does supply and install(who knows he might have had some in his yard)
I am sure you can rectify the defects!
Think your over reacting----its a component of home but your home isn't 'defected'
Search for the alternatives before you go guns o blazing!
Last thing you want is to start a 'war' with the builder considering your home is still under construction
I know you are the client but try the 'nice/calm' approach
don't start the lawyer stuff----use that as last resort!
I have seen builders and clients square off before(it usually doesn't end well---you want go un-scaved either)
You are at a disadvantage going lawyer route(they have dealt with this before and likely have deeper pockets than you)


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think you are also overreacting when it comes to the effect on the value of your home. There may be some impact, but it is not going to be on the order of tens of thousands of dollars.


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

Another opinion here saying that the 'dented' look is probably intentional. I want to add that the pictures were taken at a time of day where the sunlight casts shadows in the indents, making them pop out more - which might explain why that particular wall looks "worse" than the others.

If it was taken in direct sunlight or in complete shade, the texture would be less obvious.

The link that Userkare provided, http://www.bramptonbrick.com/node/158... I don't think OP has been able to confirm if that's the brick or not, but if you look closely, you can see the same texture - just harder to see because of the lighting, and lack of zoom.


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## Gimme the Green (Feb 4, 2014)

I don't see a single damaged brick in the pics. Unfortunately that is how they are made. Adds visual interest. Some houses on my street have mortar joints that were not tooled on purpose, looks stupid to me. As another poster mentioned, time to look into your paperwork and find out exactly what you have signed up for. Too bad, big expense of course. Good luck.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

@ Barwelle, you're right, looks like the occasional distressed surface and the side-kinks were intentionally made that way when you look closely at the ad pictures.

In the link above, if you scroll down to _colors_, the picture of the Sarasota (which looks to be the same as OP's colour) has 3 bricks out of 20 or so that have the side-kink.

Only at a time of day when the sunlight is coming from close to 180 degrees will the texture be that accentuated I think.



Eder said:


> I like the look...nice house,quality windows,stone sills,cap stone in the lintels with mock pilasters...whats not to like?


+1 I agree, it's a nice look.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

there are lots of good insights in this thread, i haven't much to add except that one feels so sympathetic with jonah! moving is already stressful, he's had to overstay & overpay in a monthly rental because of the builder's delays ... plus he's right, that rear wall does leave something to be desired, aesthetically.

it's interesting that jonah says the side walls have the same brick but fewer dented ones. He says that most of the dented bricks ended up on the rear wall. This shows that the builder placed the dented bricks intentionally. The rear wall location suggests that the builder knew the appearance of these bricks was not going to be popular.

barwelle's picture & comments re lighting angles show that some diagonal denting of the lateral surfaces of some bricks during manufacture was intentional. It's too bad that jonah didn't notice this in advance, since his posts show that he did a lot of pre-inspection of existing house models.

where's the middle point in all this, for a happy negotiated solution? is it possible the builder might replace a few courses of bricks, those with the most dents? is it possible the builder might allow more cash off the price, as a settlement? the amount of $2000 has been suggested as a rebate, but i don't believe this is enough to ask for initially. Me i'd start out looking for $10k, would be prepared to scale down from there. But i'd understand that a rebate settlement near $10k would mean no brick replacement ...

i don't see how the builder can swap jonah's house to offer him another. Jonah's house probably includes lots of custom features, no other house will have exactly the same.

one thing puzzles me. I'm used to century-old brickworks, the inner-city kind that are at least 2 solid conjoined courses of bricks thick. These are load-bearing brick walls, not brick cladding over wood structure as is built today. The window lintels are very different from the modern lintels shown in this thread's photographs.

old-fashioned lintels are often arched, the bricks are trimmed or specially fabricated to form the arch that supports the lintel. I'm left wondering what is keeping those modern lintels up? there's the tiniest of arches around the capstone but not imho enough to support the heavy weight of those wide contemporary lintels?

surely what's supporting the masonry at the top of each window would not be something as flimsy as a board or a piece of plywood or strandboard, would it? yikes.

as for mr pincer's description of the chimney, what a hoot. The impression i got was inebriated bricklayer messily constructing a weeping chimney. With a little beer here, a slob of oozing mortar there, a little portland cement to hold the shebang together. Surely it was fortunate this scenario played out on a rooftop, nobody could see what was going on. each:


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

This is part of the risk of buying pre-construction. To some extent you are buying a pig in a poke; since the builder has many weasel clauses in the contract to allow them to make changes to the final delivered home. This has often been a bigger problem with condos and builders changing floorplans, sqft, turning balconies into windows, promised connections to transit stations not materializing, etc.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

a friend of mine whose father is a contractor deliberately bought an older house, built something like the 1950s, on her father's suggestion. She said he told her a buyer of an existing house can see & deal with everything that he or she is paying for, plus older houses were built more solidly.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

lol too bad I don't have a digital camera or i'd post a picture of the chimney 

I'm not a bricklayer btw but if you look closely at the underside of the lintels you'll see a dark red colour, that's a red oxide primed steel lintel, which is how they can support the weight without the old-style arch.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^

thankx, i'll look again. The steel plates must be quite thin, i looked already, they aren't really visible.

do u think they might sag though, unlike the beautiful old arched masonry windows & doors that will likely last 500 years? plenty of things sag during a lifetime, including pressed wood bookshelves & certain parts of a human anatomy ...


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

No, the steel is something like 1/4-3/8 inch thick and is in a T-shape (mostly hidden behind the brick), there's not enough weight to bend them; all houses I believe, or 99.9% of them are built that way these days.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

ok that might do it, at least for roughly 80 years (picturing a vertical flange at the back of the steel lintel plate, goes behind the bricks as you say.)

still, i think i'll take those immortal soaring gothic cathedral arches any day. Can you imagine how they built those things all over europe without electricity or modern tools?


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

I've read a great book (fiction) on the subject by Ken Follet, takes place over a couple generations in the 12th century, highly recommend it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillars_of_the_Earth


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Looks like some of the bricks are misshaped by design, but they were intended to be spread all over the house rather than concentrated on the back. I would confirm this with the brick manufacturer first and then take that to the contractor for compensation. Once lawyers get involved.. you both lose



mrPPincer said:


> I've read a great book (fiction) on the subject by Ken Follet, takes place over a couple generations in the 12th century, highly recommend it
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillars_of_the_Earth


I watched the TV adaptation (I rarely watch TV) "A German-Canadian co-production was developed by the Munich-based Tandem Communications and Montreal-based Muse Entertainment, in association with Ridley Scott's Scott Free Films, to adapt the novel for a television movie


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The steel support under the mock lintel is To comply with building code.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

mrPPincer said:


> I've read a great book (fiction) on the subject by Ken Follet, takes place over a couple generations in the 12th century, highly recommend it
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillars_of_the_Earth


If you are interested in skyscraper construction, this book is about building Simcoe Place in Toronto. Lots of information about building techniques, augmented by stories about the construction industry and its workers.
A Building Goes Up: The Making Of A Skyscraper

From coffee trucks to climbing cranes: the creation of a building. We've all been drawn to the tiny peephole cut in the plywood fencing: a huge crater, or a sea of scaffolding inspires our wonder and curiosity. How did a hardscrabble lot become a gaping hole? What does it feel like to sit in the cab of a giant tower crane, buffeted by freezing winter winds? Who decides how many floors a building will be, and whether to choose marble or tile floors in the lobby? And what do the construction workers have tucked inside those monster lunch boxes? Veteran GLOBE AND MAIL journalist Mary Gooderham was just as intrigued, and embarked on a two-year odyssey to chronicle the creation of a 30-storey skyscraper in downtown Toronto. Her weekly columns on the building's progress became incredibly popular, inspiring many fan letters. Now these columns, with the addition of new material, have laid the foundation for a fascinating unfolding: the birth and life of a towering office building.​


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Pretty sure the structures you are referring to humble where exteriors walls comprised of all brick/stone/(outside/middle/inside)zero wood
Not economical in today society
the weight above doors and windows at the turn of the century were 4 fold the weight of modern construction in today's world
I agree those old buildings you speak of are beautiful!
You live in Quebec if i recall
that is prob one of the nicest cities in the world
I always wanted to be a brick layer!I am a roofer though(close second)
one of the oldest trades in the world
pay aside---pride factor/satification would be huge in the yesteryear of bricklaying and stone masons---a noble calling imo


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## chriswright (Sep 29, 2015)

I agree with that statement


Userkare said:


> I've seen the textured brick that sags is talking about; I don't think it's quite like the photos you posted; they're less dented looking.
> 
> If it were me, I would try to find the source of the brick - maybe there's a label on a palette that the bricks were delivered on. If you can find a manufacturer and a product name, you might be able to find a web page from the manufacturer to see what the brick should look like, or take a drive if they're not too far away. "Soldiering" the bricks above the window with the keystone, and the stone sills are not generally the signs of poor, hurried workmanship - just the opposite, it takes extra time to do that.
> 
> ...


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## the_apprentice (Jan 31, 2013)

I asked a specialist in the masonry field and their response was in agreement with CMF members. It is indeed a type of brick and there is no defect with your house. Now if you don't like it I'm not sure what your alternatives are, but the house does look great.

Good luck.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

At this point, I don't think the OP will ever be happy with the look of the house.

It may be a solution to talk to the builder and ask them to sell this home and buy or build another one from them.

It would be a pain.........but better than spending $650,000 for a house you don't like.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

I don't see damaged bricks - that is the style of the bricks. I can understand if you do not like the look but that is what was chosen. Textures bricks are always a hit or miss (depends your taste) and batches can vary greatly. Its like granite...no 2 slabs are ever the same. 

The installation seems fine - I can see the horizontal lines are near perfect although the vertical joints do not seem to all line up (although could be the angle of your picture that throws it off). Overall, there is no issue with the build nor the quality so your allegation would be rejected (should you take this to court).

Bottom line, you either like it or you don't. But you cannot claim poor workmanship nor defective materials. As others here have mentioned and to re-assure yourself, contact the brick manufacturer in case they had a bad batch go out. Besides that, you have no other recourse. And value is not affected at all. Everyone has different tastes. Just like some people will like the 'dents' and others won't, well some will like the colour you chose and others won't.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

donald said:


> Pretty sure the structures you are referring to humble where exteriors walls comprised of all brick/stone/(outside/middle/inside)zero wood
> Not economical in today society
> the weight above doors and windows at the turn of the century were 4 fold the weight of modern construction in today's world
> I agree those old buildings you speak of are beautiful!


In Europe they still build houses entirely of brick/stone/cinder blocks/steel yet they cost 1/3 the price to build. Hard to say where the money goes? I was surprised coming back to Canada, as they have found a way to use even less particle board "material" in the floor joists of new constructions! We are skimping on wood shavings in the floor joists to make our houses "economical in today's society" yet we have some of the most expensive RE in the world.. (and no shortage of trees)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mortgage u/w said:


> I don't see damaged bricks - that is the style of the bricks. I can understand if you do not like the look but that is what was chosen. Textures bricks are always a hit or miss (depends your taste) and batches can vary greatly. Its like granite...no 2 slabs are ever the same.
> 
> The installation seems fine - I can see the horizontal lines are near perfect although the vertical joints do not seem to all line up (although could be the angle of your picture that throws it off). Overall, there is no issue with the build nor the quality so your allegation would be rejected (should you take this to court).
> 
> Bottom line, you either like it or you don't. But you cannot claim poor workmanship nor defective materials. As others here have mentioned and to re-assure yourself, contact the brick manufacturer in case they had a bad batch go out. Besides that, you have no other recourse. And value is not affected at all. Everyone has different tastes. Just like some people will like the 'dents' and others won't, well some will like the colour you chose and others won't.



guess which side of the industry you work on!

i think there is some responsibility/culpability on the part of the builder because most of the dented bricks ended up on the rear wall, which is the least valuable wall of the entire house, aesthetically speaking. This indicates that the builder chose that location, ie the builder knew that the dented bricks were less desirable.

aesthetics don't matter? of course they do, & they do affect value. A house is far more than four loadbearing walls covered by a roof.


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## Joe Black (Aug 3, 2015)

*Aesthetics*



humble_pie said:


> guess which side of the industry you work on!
> 
> i think there is some responsibility/culpability on the part of the builder because most of the dented bricks ended up on the rear wall, which is the least valuable wall of the entire house, aesthetically speaking. This indicates that the builder chose that location, ie the builder knew that the dented bricks were less desirable.
> 
> aesthetics don't matter? of course they do, & they do affect value. A house is far more than four loadbearing walls covered by a roof.


I think what Mortgage u/w was saying was that aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder, not that it doesn't matter. I.e. some might find it pleasing, some might not, and some won't care. I would fall into the latter category. After all, if somebody makes a remark about how beautiful your back wall is, you got to start wondering what's so wrong with the rest of the house that this was the only compliment they could come up with.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

We can beat this dead horse with an indented brick; but at this point we don't know for 100% positive certainty that...

- The indents are part of the pattern. The manufacturer can verify that.
- The OP actually selected that pattern without fully realizing what they looked like. Shading, as per Barwelle's excellent observation?
- The bricklayer failed to evenly distribute the indented brick, with the heaviest concentration at the back wall.

Depending on the answers, the OP has completely different options going forward. Bickering among ourselves is not helping the OP.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Mod.not sure where the price difference is?
I am sure labour costs have something to do with it
In 2004 I went on contract to Cayman Islands on a sponsored work visa with a contracting company fr Cayman
Though from being Europe it was something to see.
Everything Cider block and hurricane ties and pressure treated lumber for everything(very costly but code is fr Cayman)
One of the funniest things was The difference between western workers and work hands from Jamaica
Because the island was closed and all road were damaged everything was being shipped harbour front
No concrete trucks
We finished a demo and started in on construction and we had hand mixers and powder concrete bags(for a 5000 sq home lol)
I nearly fell over when my foreman assigned me to the mixer(you have to rotate with a spade constantly,which is bloody tough esp in tropic sun)
The guys from Jamaica were un phased (this is unheard of here obviously)
I left after 6 mth
It honestly was like a Russian gulag
Point being though Way more human labour/low wages and not a union in sight
My boss was from Kingston Jamaica originally 
I will say this:working for a man like that was beyond insane
Eveytime he step onto the site it was as if Stalin himself was there
There was zero P.C labour movement during my time there....conditions and expectations were utterly insane lol


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

barwelle's picture does show bricks with lateral indents that appear to be the same size & proportion as bricks in jonah's rear wall, but not the same depth. Dents in the bricks in barwelle's linked photos are not nearly as deep.

i know that barwelle theorizes that it's only a question of light falling on the wall in a photograph, however i don't quite believe this. I think the bricks in jonah's rear wall are indented a bit more than they were supposed to be.

this suggests that a production run of bricks with slightly deeper-than-normal lateral dents somehow got loose on the planet.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> barwelle's picture does show bricks with lateral indents that appear to be the same size & proportion as bricks in jonah's rear wall, but not the same depth. Dents in the bricks in barwelle's linked photos are not nearly as deep.
> 
> i know that barwelle theorizes that it's only a question of light falling on the wall in a photograph, however i don't quite believe this. I think the bricks in jonah's rear wall are indented a bit more than they were supposed to be.
> 
> this suggests that a production run of bricks with slightly deeper-than-normal lateral dents somehow got loose on the planet.


How do you measure an indent that is 'a bit more than they were supposed to be'? A random pattern is just that - random. That's like saying a random rock is not supposed to be shaped the way it is. 

In any case, I think the OP gave up on this discussion......


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

alas, i believe you are incorrect with the random business. The distressing of the bricks was done during their manufacture, while they were still malleable. The procedure was under the manufacturer's control. The random aspect comes from their random positioning during bricklaying, not their manufacture.

my view is that a certain production run of the sarasota type was distressed deeper than it should have been. Even a centimetre could make all the difference.

this rogue run was borderline, so the manufacturer & subsequent middlemen may have sold it at a discount, with the understanding that these bricks should be used sparingly, in inconspicuous masonry, mixed with regular sarasotas, etc.

that the builder knew something was wrong is shown by the fact the rogue bricks are mostly clustered on the rear wall. I do believe that the OP is entitled to seek compensation.

it's true the OP seems to have decamped - perhaps because he felt his indignation was being dismissed by some posters - but i believe the thread is still valuable to all readers as a teaching module. It shows how careful we consumers have to be about every aspect of house purchase or house renovation. Let's not even mention cars & car repairs!
.
i myself have learned a great deal from this thread, particularly about how to choose bricks. It happens my house will need some, i'll know better now than to accept any old thing.

in this case, what i would have done is return to the model house that's also clad in sarasotas. The OP described in detail how he had visited that model before choosing his bricks. I'd photograph the model, carefully comparing the frequency & positioning of the indented bricks, how deeply they are indented, with those on my rear wall. If there's a noticeable difference, this evidence will help if i would decide to seek compensation.

finally - especially if the compensation were adequate - i'd learn to love my bricks. It's a bit like having a child born with a small defect. Not enough to handicap him in life, but always something that will trigger a special outpouring of love & support from the parents. It must have been helpful for the OP to read here that some viewers actually liked his rear wall, they thought it had style & character. This POV might not be going down well with the OP at the moment, he's still too indignant. But eventually it should cheer him up.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The newest home we ever bought was a builder showcase home, so it was already finished.

I can't imagine picking out everything for a home. I probably would find many things didn't turn out as I envisioned.

I posted a home in another thread, and it is what I would consider "perfection"............to me.

http://www.soprovich.com/listings/6008-eagleridge-drive/


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

you may have a point humble_pie....but that's also assuming the brick pattern being compared to is indeed the sarasota type. It may be a knock off or a batch that was sold at a discount. Whether someone knew about it or not will be hard to prove - unless the model home (which the OP chose) is indeed completely different. 

So for those reading this thread that are building a home, this is sure something to keep in mind. What you choose may not always turn out as you hoped for. I had a similar experience when I built my home....the wood floor color I chose did not come out exactly as expected. I ended up getting a credit because the contractor was nice enough to offer that or a replacement floor - but I learned to like what was installed since the compensation was advantageous.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I kinda talk to myself most times on cmf (lol)
Anyways one last ramble
Plus 1 for character(it is a shame really the bricklayer clustered them in the back of the home,he should of balanced them through out )
Trust me though 5 yrs from now the op will have forgotten(trust me)
I can see it being a problem in all the excitement of building a home not to mentioned the money involved but if nothing else and it doesn't get resolved Op will have bigger fish to fry!(I mean this in the kindest way,if a few bricks on the back wall of your home is a major pressing problem and discomfort in one life that may signal and even bigger problem ie:generally people would be overjoyed if this was the biggest 'problem' in one's life,rest assured it won't be!)
3 weeks ago I did a reroofing job for a young women in her 30's(she had had the home for years)
We did the job and all was well!drove over thinking another successful installation 
The next mourning I woke up to a livid voice message(with a laundry list of 'problems')
The long and the short of it was the home is 75 yrs old and some overhangs and the many ridge(and main roof)had some natural aging bows and the roof like any home that age has age sags(99% of people except this,it would be unwise to spend thousands and thousand re building the frame to bring it back square and true
After having her dad get involved(and him understanding completely)everything got smoothed over
I showed the client attic pictures to show how this was a structural problem that is natural and was not part of the scope of work we quoted on
after all this she admitted in all the years she lived there she never once looked up at her roof lol
she was only hyper aware of everything the day after I completed it(and she shelled out $)
Moral of the story:Nobody in a couple years will ever notice
when home goes to market yrs from now I would bet my life the realtor or prospective buyers wouldn't even notice and it will a complete non issue
Just my 2 cents.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

donald said:


> Mod.not sure where the price difference is?
> I am sure labour costs have something to do with it
> In 2004 I went on contract to Cayman Islands on a sponsored work visa with a contracting company fr Cayman
> Though from being Europe it was something to see.
> ...


This is a good story Donald thanks for telling it. Everyone here should go visit a mine and hear the history and working conditions here in Canada and that still goes on in third world countries to appreciate how hard work can be.

I asked someone from worksafe in BC one day how they mined Uranium in the third world. He said they used people over 50 because by the time it would kill them they would die of something else. Or if the Uranium killed them then at least they made some money for their family.


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## was416now905 (Nov 6, 2015)

*Curious*



jonah said:


> Thank you Userkare
> 
> Yes this seems to be it, you see how it is not dented while the one on my houses are extremely. The side of the house has very few dented ones, it is the back side that got most of the junk. Following is what it should look like
> 
> ...




Jonah, who was your builder? was this in fact Sarasota brick? If so, I ordered the exact same kind. 

In your opinion, is the brick more grey or pink?

I think your house looks great by the way


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