# Are vinyl windows really energy efficient and saves money?



## jamesmunger (Dec 22, 2014)

Are vinyl windows really better than wooden windows in case of energy efficiency? Wooden windows of our old house is damaged and we are planning to replace the windows. I have heard that vinyl windows help with better energy efficiency. How much is true about that information? Are vinyl windows cheaper than wooden windows? I have read reviews of vinyl windows by several window companies, like Clera windows, Landmark windows, Centennial windows and several others in review sites like homestars, Ontario window reviews and houzz. I am impressed with vinyl windows after reading the reviews. Do anyone here using vinyl windows? How good they are?


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

My vinyls (Pella fixed, casement) are vinyl clad, pine on the inside ... no maintenance req'd since installation in '93. Wood for example, would require painting, staining, to maintain weather proofing and therefore efficiency, no thanks ... what can happen with thermopanes, the sealed glass inserts, is leakage, fogging between the panes with time ... buy quality I guess is the answer for that.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

We replaced all of our ancient rotten single pane wooden windows. Some were so bad, the curtains would move in a strong wind.

We installed a door, a sliding door and 15 windows. All pretty standard vinyl double pane.

I've been tracking energy usages for a decade and there hasn't been a decline that couldn't be explained by seasonal variations. So you're looking at a maximum of 5-10%.

The new windows are clearer, easier to clean and less draft. So that's a plus, but $10,000 worth of windows and doors is saving me about $100-$150 a year.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Wood windows are 3-4 times the cost of vinyl..... or more. There are generally only purchased now for a purely aesthetic reason- when people have a wood or heritage home for example. When people buy these windows they're often metal clad at factory in a variety of colours to suit their homes facade, and to eliminate major maintenance, but this adds to the cost a lot. 

Normally vinyl will be available in white or sandalwood vinyl extrusions but this can be painted, however painting will need normal maintenance (repainting)

Energy ratings are available through NRC or your retailer on all windows. A higher number is better and you will be looking for a 30+

Different styles of windows will rate differently. Generally casement =best, vertical hung =2nd, horizontal=3rd although differences aren't significant and you have to consider: aesthetics, practical use, climate etc

Also confirm what you are looking for and at full frame replacements vs. inserts. An insert leaves the existing window frame in place putting in a new "insert" (window without a brickmold) and then the old frame is metal clad on the exterior. Normally this is done in a heritage home where it desired to preserve the existing casing trim etc, or by unscrupulous contractors making people think they are getting all new "windows". Inserts can work fine but won't fix existing issues like poor or no insulation, or seal between the window frame and rough stud, as with virtually all older homes, so this is a negative.

Other Considerations:

Spacer (this isolates the panes from thermal expansion/contraction preventing seal loss and isolates sound), double or triple glaze glass, hardware and mechanism type & quality, seals, low e coating(s), type of gas between thermo panes (argon, krypton etc), WARRANTY fine print (labour & parts)

Generally most windows manufactured today are of good quality and your research can confirm this. Narrow it down and get 3 quotes. If comparable they should not vary more than 5% or so. If it does someone is not comparing the same thing or has made an error.

The most important decision is probably how they are installed. That is what will really cause or prevent you from having problems. Spent more time on this homework and ensure it is done right. If not you will have leakage and likely your window warranty will not help. 


Good luck


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

crazyjackcsa said:


> We replaced all of our ancient rotten single pane wooden windows. Some were so bad, the curtains would move in a strong wind.
> 
> We installed a door, a sliding door and 15 windows. All pretty standard vinyl double pane.
> 
> ...


If this is the case your home is likely poorly insulated and leaky, and/or your heating system inefficient, so the windows themselves can't change a lot. Or perhaps they are not LEA. Typically changing from what you described would yield a little better result. 

The best idea is to have an energy audit performed, if you didn't do this. The ~ $200 cost would be well worth it. The audit and software modeling could determine where you are losing heat, wasting energy and pinpoint closely what gains would be made with a ranking of different types of improvements. You would know where all the problem areas are and what is the best bang for your dollar. In my province there is a $40 rebate for each window replaced and $30 for a door, giving a return of $430 against the $200 audit, in the 15 window, 1 door scenario you mentioned.

YMMV


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

We replaced all of our wooden windows (which we had covered with 3M shrink wrap) with good quality double paned vinyl clad. The issue was maintenance (my husband was tired of painting them every other year). 

There was no significant difference in our heating bills, but oddly there was a very noticable improvement in the street noise.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Energy efficiency in Windows is a pretty loose term...it's like asking if it's more energy efficient to have an open window, a screen mesh, or a finer screen mesh. Windows and doors loose the majority of heat in your house period. Is it worth spending $1000's of dollars to be 10% more efficient than your existing windows when their initial efficiency is lousy? Also remember, you're not improving the efficiency of the whole house, just that one window space. The "savings" are more a good marketing ploy in my opinion. 

I've found the "savings" issue, unless your house is 50+ year old, is probably overstated. Buy the windows for their other benefits and enjoy them, I doubt you'll find "they'll repay themselves in only 5 years..."


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

wendi1 said:


> We replaced all of our wooden windows (which we had covered with 3M shrink wrap) with good quality double paned vinyl clad. The issue was maintenance (my husband was tired of painting them every other year).
> 
> There was no significant difference in our heating bills, but oddly there was a very noticable improvement in the street noise.


Not odd. You're probably changing from single glaze to double. Also the spacer at the edge helps to isolate sound transition as well as the air/gas space between the thermopanes. If you went to triple glaze there is another noticeable noise improvement from double. I have triple glaze in my home now and quadruple glaze on 2 patio doors - (2 sets of double glaze) = very quiet.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> Energy efficiency in Windows is a pretty loose term...it's like asking if it's more energy efficient to have an open window, a screen mesh, or a finer screen mesh. Windows and doors loose the majority of heat in your house period. Is it worth spending $1000's of dollars to be 10% more efficient than your existing windows when their initial efficiency is lousy? Also remember, you're not improving the efficiency of the whole house, just that one window space. The "savings" are more a good marketing ploy in my opinion.
> 
> I've found the "savings" issue, unless your house is 50+ year old, is probably overstated. Buy the windows for their other benefits and enjoy them, I doubt you'll find "they'll repay themselves in only 5 years..."


You're pretty much right, as per my post above. Although for a 50+ year old home the air envelope and insulation will likely have to also be addressed for the windows to have much impact.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

RBull said:


> Normally vinyl will be available in white or sandalwood vinyl extrusions but this can be painted, however painting will need normal maintenance (repainting)


You are not supposed to paint vinyl windows. PVC has a fairly high coefficient of thermal expansion compared to wood and glass, so any dark colours cause it to expand and contract too much, leading to damaged/leaky seals. What is common is an aluminum wrap on the exterior of the vinyl window. The aluminum is available in any colour and some manufacturers even offer a laminate that looks like wood that you would have to be a foot away from to realize its not wood. On the inside of the window, plain vinyl is the most common, though you can also get wood-looking laminates, and full stain grade wood capping/jacket. I would go with an aluminum cap on the outside in a nice complementary colour, and plain PVC on the inside. It's amazing what the coloured aluminum capping can do to the exterior of the house.

Gas is so cheap and the bill made up of mostly fixed costs that you may not see a large change in your bills. Most of your gas goes to heating your hot water tank, and then losses in rim joists, basements and top plates. You will definitely notice a quieter, more comfortable house with new windows. Particularly on windy days.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

We are replacing all the wooden frame windows on our house in newfoundland with Vinyl this year.The living room window is a crack out and when we first got the house my husband opened it and took two hours to get it closed ,some warping had occurred ,windows are 22 years old though.We have experienced cheap vinyl windows from builders that fill up with condensation in winter months to point we had to place towels along the window to current windows which we bought for our custom house,we bought one level down from most expensive and after our 5th year we have yet to get any condensation build up on the windows.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

nobleea said:


> *You are not supposed to paint vinyl windows.* PVC has a fairly high coefficient of thermal expansion compared to wood and glass, so any dark colours cause it to expand and contract too much, leading to damaged/leaky seals. What is common is an aluminum wrap on the exterior of the vinyl window. The aluminum is available in any colour and some manufacturers even offer a laminate that looks like wood that you would have to be a foot away from to realize its not wood. On the inside of the window, plain vinyl is the most common, though you can also get wood-looking laminates, and full stain grade wood capping/jacket. I would go with an aluminum cap on the outside in a nice complementary colour, and plain PVC on the inside. It's amazing what the coloured aluminum capping can do to the exterior of the house.
> 
> Gas is so cheap and the bill made up of mostly fixed costs that you may not see a large change in your bills. Most of your gas goes to heating your hot water tank, and then losses in rim joists, basements and top plates. You will definitely notice a quieter, more comfortable house with new windows. Particularly on windy days.


Source for your claim?

Vinyl windows can be and are painted at window factories, and normally are offered with the same warranty (often 20 years to lifetime) on the window overall, other than the paint which is often 10 years. I agree capping them is a better option however, although in my years of selling windows I have yet to hear of any issue with seal problems on painted vinyl windows. The windows are hollow and most often main seals are on the inside of the frame and the sash so leaking isn't likely. The bigger issue is just painting scratches where white shows through and the future overall painting maintenance, as well as dark colours (if chosen) being more prone to blistering and fading. In any case the OP hasn't identified window colour as being an issue. 

I don't know where you are located, or where the OP lives but gas can't be assumed to be available everywhere. We don't have it. Agree on the quiet and comfort with new windows.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

It can be difficult to see the savings from new windows but its obvious there are some. Of course this depends on how bad your previous windows were and what you are planning to putting in. I went from very bad windows to vinyl triple pane a number of years back, you can easily notice the difference in a room as you walk towards the window.



nobleea said:


> Most of your gas goes to heating your hot water tank, and then losses in rim joists, basements and top plates.


Costs will depend on where you live in Canada. In colder areas most of your gas costs go to the furnace for home heating, likely 4-6x higher than the cost to run your hot water tank if both are using gas.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

RBull said:


> Source for your claim?


It differs by manufacturer, but as a general rule, it's not recommended. There are paints nowadays that are designed for painting plastics which deal with the heat buildup (more reflective to reduce heat gain). Yes, the frames are hollow, but as the frame expands at a bigger rate than the glass, it starts to leak. I've never heard or seen painted vinyl windows offered by a major manufacturer, not to say it doesn't exist.
Sherwin Williams offers VinylSafe (http://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...collection/vinylsafe-colors-for-vinyl-siding/) but that is for siding where dimensional changes are a little more tolerant. Capping is the best and removes the need for repainting. All manufacturers can provide this direct from the factory.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

cainvest said:


> Costs will depend on where you live in Canada. In colder areas most of your gas costs go to the furnace for home heating, likely 4-6x higher than the cost to run your hot water tank if both are using gas.


In January or Feb, for sure. But on a yearly basis, most of the money you pay to the gas company is related to fixed admin fees and gas for water heating.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> In January or Feb, for sure. But on a yearly basis, most of the money you pay to the gas company is related to fixed admin fees and gas for water heating.


Numbers fom Manitoba hydro show yearly costs (excluding basic service charges) of $618 for mid-efficiency gas furnace vs $151 for a conventional gas hot water heater (based on usage of 2.4 people). They show base service charges as $168 a year.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

cainvest said:


> Numbers fom Manitoba hydro show yearly costs (excluding basic service charges) of $618 for mid-efficiency gas furnace vs $151 for a conventional gas hot water heater (based on usage of 2.4 people). They show base service charges as $168 a year.


Again depends where you are. In AB, the base service charges are closer to $500/yr.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> Again depends where you are. In AB, the base service charges are closer to $500/yr.


Ouch, that's much higher than here, I would have guessed AB would be lower ... guess not.
In any case the $618 vs $151 still shows the amount of yearly gas consumption is far greater for the furnace in colder areas. This would loosely tie in with how much you're likely going to save with new windows, if you are in a wamer area those windows will not likely save you much at all.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Unless you have a heritage home
Go vinyl
They are way cheaper(wood windows now a days are a special order for manufacturing company)
If you google vinyl vs wood you prob come to the conclusion vinyl is the way to go
*just because you get vinyl doesn't mean you can't add trim ect if your worried about vinyl not have the appeal that wood had/s with detail.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

RBull said:


> If this is the case your home is likely poorly insulated and leaky, and/or your heating system inefficient, so the windows themselves can't change a lot. Or perhaps they are not LEA. Typically changing from what you described would yield a little better result.
> 
> The best idea is to have an energy audit performed, if you didn't do this. The ~ $200 cost would be well worth it. The audit and software modeling could determine where you are losing heat, wasting energy and pinpoint closely what gains would be made with a ranking of different types of improvements. You would know where all the problem areas are and what is the best bang for your dollar. In my province there is a $40 rebate for each window replaced and $30 for a door, giving a return of $430 against the $200 audit, in the 15 window, 1 door scenario you mentioned.
> 
> YMMV


It's terribly insulated. In fact, there isn't any. From the outside in: Brick/tarpaper/1X6"boards/tarpaper/2X4"wall/lathe/plaster. No insulation.

The heating unit is a 1912 coal fired boiler converted to natural gas.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

crazyjackcsa said:


> It's terribly insulated. In fact, there isn't any. From the outside in: Brick/tarpaper/1X6"boards/tarpaper/2X4"wall/lathe/plaster. No insulation.
> The heating unit is a 1912 coal fired boiler converted to natural gas.


Well,... at least you got some nice windows there


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

nobleea said:


> It differs by manufacturer, but as a general rule, it's not recommended. There are paints nowadays that are designed for painting plastics which deal with the heat buildup (more reflective to reduce heat gain). Yes, the frames are hollow, but as the frame expands at a bigger rate than the glass, it starts to leak. I've never heard or seen painted vinyl windows offered by a major manufacturer, not to say it doesn't exist.
> Sherwin Williams offers VinylSafe (http://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...collection/vinylsafe-colors-for-vinyl-siding/) but that is for siding where dimensional changes are a little more tolerant. Capping is the best and removes the need for repainting. All manufacturers can provide this direct from the factory.


It would be useful to have some credible sources supporting your statement that painting of PVC is not recommended, and proof of all painted PVC causing leakage between the sash and the thermopane, if I understand you correctly. If you were only saying that a homeowner should not DIY paint their PVC windows we would agree, but that is not what I suggested in my initial post. I referred only to the availability of vinyl painted windows and also didn't actually advocate doing this. 

To expand your ideas about painted windows I have attached links to the 2 largest and possibly highest quality manufacturers in my region. I have also attached a link to one of the largest window manufacturers in Canada. They all paint PVC windows in a variety of colours. I used to represent one of them. These manufacturers have been doing this for years and offer full warranties on their windows parts and labour - painted extrusions or not.

Wouldn't you expect that if painting caused any noteworthy problems such the leakage with their windows you state will happen, or other problematic issues, that they would not offer painting? Or that this would void their warranties offered? 

I have also included a 4th link to a BC company that explains, provides and advocates the heat process painting. 

http://peterkohler.com/windows/options/color-options

http://atlanticwindows.com/windows.asp?sub=13

http://en.jeld-wen.ca/windows/vinyl/casement_windows/donat_flamand/

http://www.westeckwindows.com/how-to-paint-pvc-or-vinyl/

On the capping are you suggesting all window manufacturers provide this option from the factory, or do you mean wood window manufacturers? All wood manufacturers I know of offer it but only select vinyl manufacturers offer this hybrid type of product.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

RBull, we are talking about different things. You are referring to plant applied coatings, which are a step above 'paint'. I'm sure the manufacturers you mention have tested and warranty their products. Again, I have never seen this offered, but I am only exposed to the manufacturers out here. I am talking about painting a PVC window, which implies the window is already installed and the owner (or a contractor) paints it later.

Every window manufacturer out here offers the aluminum capping over vinyl frame. Many offer aluminum cap outside/wood cap inside over vinyl frame. The two big ones in our area are All Weather Windows and Durabuilt, both based and manufacturer here in Edmonton.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

nobleea, fair enough. 

Although even the manufacturers all call it paint. Applied coating is a fancy name which includes paints. It may also involve a process to prepare and apply. Painting it can imply either by a manufacturer (since they do this) or homeowner. It's all in the interpretation. 

Jeldwen, one of the links I provided sells their vinyl painted windows in your market of Edmonton.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Energy efficiency in Windows is a pretty loose term...
> I've found the "savings" issue, unless your house is 50+ year old, is probably overstated ...
> I doubt you'll find "they'll repay themselves in only 5 years..."


Possibly ... but aren't you doing the same thing? 

You seem to be assuming that replacing windows in a 50+ year old house is going to mean the most significant leak is going to be the windows ... this may not be the case, particularly if there's only been cosmetic updates to the original building code.

After all ... it was only something like a 70 year old house that my father was doing a reno where he discovered the "insulation" in a section was newspapers stuffed into the walls.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

nobleea said:


> In January or Feb, for sure. But on a yearly basis, most of the money you pay to the gas company is related to fixed admin fees and gas for water heating.


I'll have to add up my bills but I doubt it ... where I had only a gas furnace with electric water heating, the summer months were something like $25 while I seem to recall the Sept thought May/June would ramp up to something like $150 around Feb.

Now that I have a gas furnace, gas water heater and gas BBQ - I see a similar pattern where the bill is higher Oct through May/June, where I recall the low end is around $50 and the Feb/Mar is usually around $200.


So while I also don't think I'm experiencing 4-6x the water heater alone, I'm also confident that yearly, the admin/water heater fees aren't the lion's share.


Cheers


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

jamesmunger said:


> Are vinyl windows really better than wooden windows in case of energy efficiency? ....


Yes, they can be. Vinyl windows have vastly improved over the last 40 years. Go to this NRCan web site http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/products/categories/fenestration/13939
to download general consumer information documents on residential windows.


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## melvinderby (Jun 15, 2016)

Vinyl windows are scratch free and don’t require any maintenance apart from the occasional clean with a vinyl window cleaner. No painting or scraping is required and they don’t age the same way as the windows made up of other materials. Vinyl windows comes with a large collection of colors,styles and sizes. The price that you pay for vinyl windows is considerably cheaper than the other window types. They lasts longer and save more on heating bills.I have a triple glazed vinyl window that I purchased from clera windows in my house. They provide good savings in energy costs.It keeps the heat in during the winter and increases the effectiveness of the air conditioning during the summer. .Triple glazing provides two layers that offers a high degree of insulation.


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