# TD Waterhouse Lowers Portfolio Minimum for $9.95 Trades



## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

just talked to td waterhouse about my account and fees etc

just a heads up, td waterhouse will be billing trades at $9.95 if you have 50K (instead of a 100K) and sign up for electronic statements


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## jamiechese (Jul 13, 2010)

Thats pretty handy, guess I am still outta luck with that as I dont have 50k yet lawl...


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

$10 is still too much for me. Trading commission eat away about 0.50% of my portfolio every year. I must switch to a lower cost alternative.


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Fees are often negotiable. The larger your account, the more negotiable they are!!!

Currently, a $4.95 trading fee for accounts worth in excess of $500 thousand should be negotiable. This doesn't necessarily have to all be in one account but could be family assets over several accounts in the same institution.

Does anyone out there currently pay a lower trading fee than that?


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## jamiechese (Jul 13, 2010)

Honestly the lowest fee ive ever seen at even a discount broker is 4.95$ per trade. TD is most likely the only large canadian bank to offer a decent trading price without having 100k+ in assets.

I guarentee you Canada most likely wont see really cheap commisions for a very long time...if ever. Kinda like how we have outrageous mutual fund fees  lawl. Canada just tends to me more exspensive in some aspects I guess...


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

On lower volume trades, Interactive Brokers would be cheaper than $4.95 per trade.


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## kenwood (Apr 18, 2009)

Belguy said:


> Currently, a $4.95 trading fee for accounts worth in excess of $500 thousand should be negotiable. This doesn't necessarily have to all be in one account but could be family assets over several accounts in the same institution.


Is this confirmed?


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

In my opinion if a difference of $5 per trade is important to you-you trade too much.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Square Root said:


> In my opinion if a difference of $5 per trade is important to you-you trade too much.


Or your order quantity is too small. Or you rebalance too often.


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## patmanz (Jul 26, 2010)

kenwood said:


> Is this confirmed?


yes, i heard it straight from the horse mouth yesterday at a seminar


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## patmanz (Jul 26, 2010)

Just my opinion...

After shopping around for a new broker in the last few months i came to the conclusion that TD is the best offer out there.

Sure, Questrade offer 4.95$ per trade but their support dont even come close to what TD offer

IB fee's are even lowest than Questrade, however, no registered account (RRSP, TFSA, etc) are available. IB is probably the best choice for active traders but dont fit well for buy and hold passive investors.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

historically the big green never let any other firm get ahead of it; and thus it used to follow e-trade down in commish price cuts.

now that e-trade has resurfaced as scotia i-trade, and i-trade is asking for only 50k to secure the under-$10 commish, of course td had to follow. I'd expect that all the remaining bank onliners will go down like kingpins.


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

Speaking of big green, anyone know what's happening with TDW and Thinkorswim? I would make that switch in a heart beat.


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

Belguy said:


> Fees are often negotiable. The larger your account, the more negotiable they are!!!
> 
> Currently, a $4.95 trading fee for accounts worth in excess of $500 thousand should be negotiable. This doesn't necessarily have to all be in one account but could be family assets over several accounts in the same institution.
> 
> Does anyone out there currently pay a lower trading fee than that?


Belguy:

At which brokerage do you think this applies??

Please be specific, especially if you are sure.

thanks,


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## jamiechese (Jul 13, 2010)

patmanz said:


> Just my opinion...
> 
> After shopping around for a new broker in the last few months i came to the conclusion that TD is the best offer out there.
> 
> ...


Ive heard many bad things about Questrade, although ive also heard many good things. I can honestly say though that most of the stories ive heard is that sometimes they screw around with your money and ocasionally there are random charges on your investing account that they try to "sneak" through etc. 

I honestly decided to go with Qtrade because of all the tools/research they offer. Yes their commision is higher at 20$ per trade but its still lower than the banks. Also once you do hit 100k in assets if you trade less than 30 trades a quarter (which is active trader status, works out to min 10 trades a month) then they lower the commision to 10$.

I cant say much about Qtrade YET as I am still waiting for my account to be open but I will let you know if Qtrade is good, as I do know that the Globe and Mail have rated it as #1 broker overall for a few years (I think).

I have to say though I have not been able to find many people that have used them, so I am not sure what to think.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it's still unofficial. But they say - unofficially - that thinkorswim personnel are already physically present at tdw canada. They sit with the tdw reps but they have their own groups, pods, offices, etc. Rumour says the plan may be for them to open for business under their own logo, but they'd use the big green infrastructure.

please what's so great that you'd go for them in a heartbeat ...


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

Options is my thing, especially income generating spreads that are theta positive. TOS has the infrastructure to facilitate trading and analysis of options in one platform.

Also, if one assumes that options are a zero sum game, then covered calls and naked puts would produce improved risk-adjusted returns. Alpha would be zero, but the standard deviation of returns would be lower than the market, thus improving risk-adjusted returns.





humble_pie said:


> it's still unofficial. But they say - unofficially - that thinkorswim personnel are already physically present at tdw canada. They sit with the tdw reps but they have their own groups, pods, offices, etc. Rumour says the plan may be for them to open for business under their own logo, but they'd use the big green infrastructure.
> 
> please what's so great that you'd go for them in a heartbeat ...


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

People keep asking me where I obtain a $4.95 trading fee for my family's portfolios, all of which I have trading priviledges on and which exceed $500,000 in total.

I receive this from CIBC Investors Edge Discount Brokerage.

Now, they will likely take it away from me for blabbing it around. 

And so, please keep it to yourselves!!!

I agree with those who say that a five dollar difference in trading fees should be no big deal for most investors who would do well to keep their trading volume to a minimum anyway. I probably only trade a half dozen times a year on average.

Buy, hold, and prosper.


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## pablito (Apr 3, 2009)

FYI: I just called TDW and the agent confirmed that the change to $50K to qualify for $10/trade is to take effect November 4th, 2010.


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## FrugalTrader (Oct 13, 2008)

Also note guys that a lot of us have small accounts, so keeping fees as low as possible is important.


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

BELGUY,

thanks for sharing..

I do banking with CIBC, but am not at Investors Edge.
My brokerage has always given me exellent service...I am in the same position as you, and handle many accounts.
I pay $9.95 , but really appreciate the personal service, but if that changes, perhaps I will contact Investors Edge.


FRUGAL...you said:

"FrugalTrader-----Also note guys that a lot of us have small accounts, so keeping fees as low as possible is important "

Small account, medium account , large account, or huge account.....doesnt really matter.
It is ALWAYS important to keep costs and fees as loww as possible.

This is especially true over long term holding periods!...eg..beginner investors, where compounding can really work its magic.

Thats why you shouldnt buy high MER funds!

Any money you can keep in your pocket is good.


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Trading fees matter more if you are a frequent trader which many of us are not!!

I make about six trades a year. If I were charged $30 per trade instead of the $5 that I now pay, you're only talking $150 difference which is not small change but neither is it a going to make or break you.

Warren Buffett believes that most small investors trade far too often and higher trading fees might influence many to trade less often to their own benefit.

There is a silver lining to many things including higher trading fees.

Buy low, HOLD, and prosper!!!


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

I find service and trade execution is more important than fees. Sure it is better to pay less but in my case with only 6-10 trades per year on a large portfolio the annual cost differential would only represent about .0005% of the portfolio. Happy with TD Waterhouse. Often my trades are 10,000 shares or more so even 1 cent price differential swamps any commission differential.


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

Square...

You are certainly right, if you trade often and in 10,000 share lots.
Care to share what company you feel comfortable enough in to trade 10,000 share lots?

Are they penny shares?

My trades usually range from 100 to 2000 shares, depending on the company I am buying.

Like you Belguy...I dont "trade" often, although more than 6 times a year like you. As Buffet and you said...trading too often will lower returns,,,he also said that most retail investors would be better served to just buy a wide ETF.

Actually I have been a "buyer" only...as I do like to buy and hold, collect the divs/distributions, and hope for a reasonable capital gain over time.

I am at BMO .......my original research showed that they consistently scored highest in customer satisfaction, and I can say that it has been that way with me too.

Td seems to have the best site....best research and tools etc, and it just "looks" good.

I have a friend who recently moved part of his RRSP to Questrade......and at first he found it difficult to use, and hard to get answers and things done, etc, but tells me its better now.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

just saw this article on the globe
what interested me is the part about scotia i-trade doing transparent pricing on bonds for individual buyers .... anyone here have i-trade and do they have a good bond selection (tdw is crap compared to what they offer their "paying" clients)

call me an cockeyed optimist but these are changes that say the big banks and brokerages are getting hit by investors who are sick and tired of paying their high fees ... we will see more of this



> A more revolutionary – and long overdue – price cut affects clients of Scotia iTrade who invest in bonds. The firm has dispensed with the practice of burying commissions in the prices quoted to clients who buy or sell bonds and will now simply charge a flat fee of $1 per $1,000 in face value of bonds being traded. The minimum fee will be $19.99, the maximum $250.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

fatcat said:


> ...call me an cockeyed optimist but these are changes that say the big banks and brokerages are getting hit by investors who are sick and tired of paying their high fees ... we will see more of this


Is this $1 per $1000 on the buy side, the sell side or both?


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

https://www.scotiaitrade.com/splash/fixed_income.shtml

looks like buy side only
nothing about selling

i know little about bonds because tdw has such a poor selection of bonds compared to what their advisors have that i just decided to go with funds

if there was a way to get at really good individual bonds i would be interested to learn more

i wonder if there would be a way for individuals to buy and sell bonds among themselves, much like people do with share certificates for dripping to avoid brokerage charges ?


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

My primary bond holding is the PH&N Bond Fund D:

https://www.phn.com/Default.aspx?tabid=524


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

fatcat - I'm with Scotia iTrade and have bought bonds directly through them.
I saw this note popup on my trading home page as well as in my email box.
Over the next few days, I'll do some more research on it and try to determine if their bond pricing has improved.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to any other brokerage to compare pricing.
It is hard to get visibility into the primary bond market being a secondary market investor.
CanadianFixedIncome.ca has CBID's pricing for some of the bonds and we can compare against that.
To answer your question about inventory: it is not very good.
I don't know what TDW offers, but it can't be any worse than what Scotia offers.
Theoretically, you are not limited to their online inventory and could purchase any bond by talking directly to their bond desk and they'll get you a quote for it.
But of course you will probably pay a higher spread.


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

FATCAT:

thanks for posting that info, and those links to the Scotia ITRADE new bond commission policy. Nice find.
Too bad its such a bad time to buy bonds,,,but the change is great to know about ,,,so thanks again.


HAROLDCRUMP:

I just looked at the Scotia link in regard to this new bond policy...and one thing I noticed right away is where Scotia talks about its "Extensive Bond Inventory", and says you can search its inventory "of over 2300 fixed income securities"............if only this were true!

You said the choice was lousy and the inventory not very good.
Do you think they will ahve the vast choices they talk about when they ramp up this offer more?
As a client, would you call them and ask about this? and relay info you get?

Actually I have a Scotia Itrade account.....i forgot.....I opened it with $1, a few years ago back when they were ETRADE,,,,I still get quarterly statements for that $1.
I may look into this myself.

I will tell you of another problem when you deal with two or three different brokerages, ( because each has diff and better things availiable for diff types of accounts).
Anyway what happens is that you are swamped at tax time with piles of T-5's, T-5013's, trading summaries , etc etc, because each brokerage sends you their own slips for your holdings!

One year i got 30 slips! and it can become a paper nightmare keeping track!

thanks again guys , for all the info.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

warp said:


> HAROLDCRUMP:
> 
> I just looked at the Scotia link in regard to this new bond policy...and one thing I noticed right away is where Scotia talks about its "Extensive Bond Inventory", and says you can search its inventory "of over 2300 fixed income securities"............if only this were true!


Well, they are counting all the federal govt. provincial and muni issues in there as well.
Almost all brokerages will offer those.
They are highly liquid and have good volume (in that order - munis often have liquidity issues).


> You said the choice was lousy and the inventory not very good.


I was specifically thinking of their corporate offerings.
There are several bond issues that never show up on their inventory list.
I had called and asked once and they told me they can try and buy any bond for me if I gave them the details but can't promise any liquidity, and the spreads would be higher.


> Do you think they will ahve the vast choices they talk about when they ramp up this offer more?
> As a client, would you call them and ask about this? and relay info you get?


Yeah, I plan to compare the offer yields between their website and CBIDs to see what the spread is.
If their claims are indeed true, there shouldn't be any difference in the offer yields moving forward.
I wonder what has changed that enables them to do this.
Maybe under the umbrella of Scotia Capital they now have better access and better terms when acquiring bonds from the primary market.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

> Pimco sets its sights on Canada
> 
> The world’s most famous bond fund manager is planning an aggressive expansion into Canada as early as this fall, challenging existing players for a slice of this country’s mutual fund market.
> 
> In recent interviews, Bill Gross has been talking up Canada as a better place to find good bond returns than in the United States. Now his company, U.S. bond giant Pimco, intends to file with regulators for at least five mutual funds that would go on sale in time for the registered retirement savings plan season, sources say.


looks like pimco is going to enter canada with bond funds very, very soon

i am a bond novice but have come to some tentative conclusions: 

1) unless you are building a ladder of individual bonds which you intend to hold to maturity, you are probably better off with bond funds

2) retail investors are always going to get the leftovers when it comes to buying individual bonds, large institutions will always eat first

3) bond funds are going to start to sprout like mushrooms and become much, much less expensive which will make them even more attractive to retail investors


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Most of my big trades are in the banks. I only have "blue chip" dividend payors in our portfolios. No rebalancing required per say as no fixed income and pretty much a buy and hold stategy. Current yield is around 3.5%.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

fatcat said:


> 1) unless you are building a ladder of individual bonds which you intend to hold to maturity, you are probably better off with bond funds


Actually, IMO, if you are gonna buy a bond fund, buy an automatically laddered bond fund, like the ones offered by Claymore.
Other bond funds are not worth buying IMO.


> 2) retail investors are always going to get the leftovers when it comes to buying individual bonds, large institutions will always eat first


True


> 3) bond funds are going to start to sprout like mushrooms and become much, much less expensive which will make them even more attractive to retail investors


Meh, maybe.
I suppose you are right...look what happened to equity ETFs.
Now there are so many exotic, fancy-smanzy, complicated sounding ETFs - those things are multiplying like rabbits.


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

I just called Scotia Itrade....after 10 minutes of being on hold,,,I just hung up.

I was trying to get more info on their "vast" inventory of bonds.."over 2300"

I too assumed most would be govt, provincial etc,,,,but personally I want to know wahat corporate bonds they have or will have availiable.

I will try agin later...monday morning is usually busier .


Unfortunately, Its just a bad time to buy bonds period.
I am having the unfortunate experience of having several of my bonds being redeemed early.
I would have preferred to hold till maturity, but thats life.

I have considered, that perhaps this is a blessing in disguise, as I will now probably have to buy some good div stocks with this cash......but the recent runup during sept has me hesitating a bit,,,which may be a mistake.

Buffet said last week that bonds are way overpriced in relation to stocks , and that nodody now should buy bonds over good equities,...but I always like to have that "anchor" of fixed income in my accounts.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

> Actually, IMO, if you are gonna buy a bond fund, buy an automatically laddered bond fund, like the ones offered by Claymore.
> Other bond funds are not worth buying IMO.


 harold, i should have stated that i would only buy low fee funds like the phn 110 at .59 or the claymore laddered or corporate etc

i would never buy a high big bank fee bond fund

as long as this "recovery" remains anemic, investors will be more and more concerned about fees eating away at low returns so i think we will see a trend toward lower fees all around

i think the spell has been broken


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> ...I suppose you are right...look what happened to equity ETFs.
> Now there are so many exotic, fancy-smanzy, complicated sounding ETFs - those things are multiplying like rabbits.


I think this is inevitable. Things get more and more complicated until the average buyer needs an expert to advise them. It happens in every field.


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Never underestimate the ingenuity of the financial services industry when it comes to inventing new and different ways to get you to part with your money.

Stick with the lowest fee, broadest based ETF's!!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

warp said:


> I just called Scotia Itrade....after 10 minutes of being on hold,,,I just hung up.
> 
> I was trying to get more info on their "vast" inventory of bonds.."over 2300"
> 
> ...


OK, so this morning I set aside some time to compare yields between iTrade's bond inventory and CBID's primary market yields and....wait for it....tada! iTrade's bond inventory is empty!!
Not one, nada....couldn't find one single bond in all my searches.
Tried searching based on yield, coupon, term, etc...everything turned up blank.
I can only assume that there is a glitch in the system.
Maybe the email annoucements got sent out too soon and they are still fixing things at the backend.
Anyhow, if this doesn't resolve within the next couple of days, I'll give them a call to see what's up.


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## warp (Sep 4, 2010)

HAROLD:

thanks for your work on our behalf..

I have not called Itrade back, re their supposed bond inventory and new pricing.

If you do get more info...please do post it...and thanks again.

Also..Id like to add to what BELGUY siad, as follows:

"Never underestimate the ingenuity of the financial services industry when it comes to inventing new and different ways to get you to part with your money.

Stick with the lowest fee, broadest based ETF's!! "



He is absolutely right!.....good advice well worth remembering!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

So something is going on with the system backend...searches are working intermittently.
This morning everything seemed great but after a while again no bonds showing up.
But while it was working, I did a quick paging through their offer yields and it didn't _seem_ to be any higher than what the same bonds were a couple of weeks ago.

It could mean two things:

a. Nothing's really changed and the $1 fee is simply a marketing gimmick, and a way to make an additional $1 margin on bond sales.

b. They have adjusted the offer yields for the hidden commision they used to charge, but yields have fallen even further in the primary market in the last 2 weeks thereby canceling out their adjustments.

I personally can't claim which of the above is true, until I spend some time comparing yields but a quick scan tells me not much has changed.
For me to truly believe their new offering, I need to see the same yields on their website that primary traders are paying.
Somehow, I find it hard to believe that is the case.


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