# Vehicle purchase during Covid



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I started a thread on the Frugality section of this forum a little while back, regarding the possibility of getting a good deal on buying a used rental vehicle given their situation right now under Covid. That led to my wife and I once again considering changing vehicles.

We bought a 2006 SUV brand new when we moved back to Canada 14 years ago. It's still a 'good car' with no rust, runs well, looks like new inside and out still really but it is 14 years old with 255k on the odometer. At the last service they told me it was getting near time for a new set of tires which would cost about as much as the actual trade in value of the car as now dropped to. It's hard to look at your vehicle and think, 'it looks good, it runs well, there's nothing wrong with it and we still LIKE it, but it's only worth $1k'. Yet that's the reality.

So after looking at the situation again, we decided that maybe this is the time to change vehicles. Sellers are anxious to sell and buyers are scarcer; where before we would be having to choose between spending money on a vacation vs. spending on a vehicle, this year that choice doesn't exist. It's either sit the money in a GIC for 2% or whatever, or spend it on a vehicle and if instead of making $200 per $10,000 with the GIC we could perhaps pay $400 less per $10,000 on a vehicle.

We started looking at what we could find using Autotrader, etc. and eventually found a vehicle that looked like a very good buy. A 2016 Mazda CX-5 GT, the top of the range model with every option Mazda offered in that year. Autotrader listed it as a 'Great Price'; we could see the Carfax report online on the dealer's website(without paying) and we decided to go and see it.

A couple of interesting things could be deduced from the Carfax report. It had one owner, that owner had had more services done than required (by mileage or time recommendations). I could only deduce that the owner took it in for regular servicing but may have also taken it to the dealer just to have it washed and detailed. Quite a few of the 'serviced' listing mentioned 'washed and detailed' but nothing else and so I think the dealer may have reported the car as being 'serviced' when in fact no oil change or anything was being done or needed to be done. I'm talking being listed as 'serviced' as often as monthly! There is no question the vehicle is immaculate inside.

Then there was the question of age. It was purchased in May 2016 and the last service was listed in August of 2019. A the August 2019 service it had 84k on the odometer. As of now it has 87k on the odometer. From that we decuced that it had to have been traded in sometime in early fall probably since only another 3K had gone on it. Then it sat unsold with the dealer dropping the price (you can see the price changes on a graph on Carfax). Then came the end of year slump in buying and then came Covid. We also deduced that while the vehicle was '4 years old' based on model year, it had in fact only been driven for just over 3 years. So is it 4 or is it 3? From a wear and tear standpoint, to me it is 3.

So we went to see it and everything we could see was 'as advertised' and the dealer freely said that they had it 'aggressively priced to sell; it had been sitting far too long due to Covid and although they didn't have much margin left, they wanted to move it.'

Instead of just taking a test drive we drove it with the dealer's agreement to our local mechanic for an inspection. No red flags were raised at all by our mechanic. We then drove it back to the dealer and concluded the deal.

In negotiating the final price, we disagreed on the trade-in value, no surprise there but when I asked the dealer to give me their final 'best price' including trade-in, tax and registration, he 'caved' on the trade-in and gave us a final all in price that was in fact a few hundred lower than I had figured in my head as our 'deal breaker' price. It not only included a higher trade-in value than he had been trying to suggest but an additional small drop on the actual asking price. So we got what I believe was a VERY good deal. I don't attribute that to my superior negotiating skills (even though they are) but to their need to move the vehicle right now. They just didn't want to lose a deal that was ready to be done, no tire kicking.

It has to be registered now which the dealer will do in the next couple of days and then they will deliver it to our driveway; change the plates there and drive our trade-in away.

Bottom line, based on our experience in buying right now even though it is only one anecdotal example, it certainly does seem to me that anyone thinking of buying isn't likely to find a better time to do so.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> At the last service they told me it was getting near time for a new set of tires which would cost about as much as the actual trade in value of the car as now dropped to. It's hard to look at your vehicle and think, 'it looks good, it runs well, there's nothing wrong with it and we still LIKE it, but it's only worth $1k'. Yet that's the reality.


That one gets most people to move to a new(er) vehicle, current value vs maintenance/repair costs. It can be difficult to decide when is a good time to move on up. I'm still running my 2002 with 340k kms which got new tires last year and now requires new front brakes. It runs great so I'll continue to maintain it unless a major repair is needed.



Longtimeago said:


> Bottom line, based on our experience in buying right now even though it is only one anecdotal example, it certainly does seem to me that anyone thinking of buying isn't likely to find a better time to do so.


There might be some good deals around but also many just priced normal. My friend has been looking to update to a newer vehicle since before covid hit and he said most prices are still in the normal range for used. Some new vehicles do seem to have slightly better post-covid pricing though.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Congratulations on the new car! Good job negotiating too.

For a 3 year-old car, 87k on the odometer seems a bit high. It depends on the place the car was driven, but for most places the average is less than 20k per year (often in the 12k - 15k range). That is not necessarily a bad thing. It likely means it has a lot of highway km on it, which generally taxes the powertrain less than city driving. One way to tell is to look at the brakes. If the brakes are original and lightly used (eg 4-5 mm) then it has been mostly driven on the highway. If you drive low km per year, over the course of a few years, the km per year should approach average levels.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sounds good LTA. Is there any power train warranty left on it ?

It is funny. Years ago we used to think in terms of miles on the odometer, and 100,000 miles was kind of a barometer of "newness".

Today people get freaked out if a car has 100,000 kms on it, and motors are much better made now.

Pick yourself out a nice hat..........😎



Amazon.com : Mazda Hat


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We will be in a recession for quite some time. Good time to buy a car. No doubt the concessions on new cars will start to drive down the prices of late model used cars. It may take a few more months but prices will definitely start to react to the supply/demand curve. Not to mention high dealer inventories.

One thing,,,,don't forget to ensure that any bottom line prices do not exclude the phoney $200-$250 document charge that some dealerships like to fleece their customers with at the very last moment when finalizing the paperwork!

Sometimes hard to make a decision. Last year we did the timing belt on our 2006 Accord. New tires the year before. Ultimately decided to keep the car because it only had 200K and we like it and we no longer put many kms on it. Besides...the tax on the new car would have been more than the cost of the timing belt. We had 425K plus on our 97 Camry prior to giving it to our son. Exact same reasoning with our 2007 Solara. New tires, timing belt last year since it only has 100K on the clock. Both cars are worth far more to us in replacement value terms than they are to sell or to trade. And we like them both very much. Always a crap shoot though. Anyone can get a gem or a lemon. IF we had an SUV or 4WD we would definitely be trading it earlier rather than later.

Congrats on the new vehicle. Always a good feeling. We bought our 2006 Honda in 2009. It had 40K on it. It has been as reliable as the new Camry that we had for 18 years. I think the secret is to follow the maintenance recommendations as it applies to all fluids etc.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Mind saying what you paid? I actually have been looking at 2017 CX-5 GTs and considering a somewhat premature upgrade.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Mind saying what you paid? I actually have been looking at 2017 CX-5 GTs and considering a somewhat premature upgrade.


I have sent you a private message andrewf.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> That one gets most people to move to a new(er) vehicle, current value vs maintenance/repair costs. It can be difficult to decide when is a good time to move on up. I'm still running my 2002 with 340k kms which got new tires last year and now requires new front brakes. It runs great so I'll continue to maintain it unless a major repair is needed.
> 
> There might be some good deals around but also many just priced normal. My friend has been looking to update to a newer vehicle since before covid hit and he said most prices are still in the normal range for used. Some new vehicles do seem to have slightly better post-covid pricing though.


Our one of experience was not so much that the initial asking price was lower cainvest as the MOTIVATION of the dealer to do a deal was so much higher. After I had put my points to the dealer as to why he should give me a better offer and after he had put his points to me as to why his asking price was already very fair, I asked him to go and figure out his 'final all in price' as I said in the OP, he came back with a better price than I even expected/hoped for.

His comment when he gave me that final price was something like, 'here is my best price, I don't want to lose the deal for a few hundred dollars, so I've moved as far towards your thinking of where I should be, as I can.'

If you put yourself in a dealer's shoes right now, they have to be hurting and that is a prime motivator. Ian's suggestion that it may take a few months for prices to start reacting is I think wrong. The LIST price may not change much but the MOTIVATION to do a deal is not going to get any higher than it is right now and that puts the buyer in the driver's seat (pun intended) as far as negotiating is concerned and I just love negotiating.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I spent my career in sales. I absolutely hate the car buying process. Much prefer either the on line approach or the just give me your final, all in, dollar price before GST. 

I know of at least two colleagues of mine who were about to buy new vehicles several years ago. A Honda truck and a high end Infiniti. Both knew exactly what they wanted. Both got fed up With the antics of the local dealers. Both sent out queries to dealers in a neighbouring province. No trade ins. Straight here is the cheque, I will drive it away. Both saved thousands, one was 3K. The other 5K.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I have sent you a private message andrewf.


Thanks!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> If you put yourself in a dealer's shoes right now, they have to be hurting and that is a prime motivator. Ian's suggestion that it may take a few months for prices to start reacting is I think wrong. The LIST price may not change much but the MOTIVATION to do a deal is not going to get any higher than it is right now and that puts the buyer in the driver's seat (pun intended) as far as negotiating is concerned and I just love negotiating.


For sure some dealers will be more willing to cut their margins right now, maybe even losing money just to reduce inventory and/or to get cash flow. Whether or not deals will get better will depend on the financial situation of each dealer and their sale volumes. Good to hear you are happy with the price and vehicle you got, enjoy the zoom-zoom!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I spent my career in sales. I absolutely hate the car buying process. Much prefer either the on line approach or the just give me your final, all in, dollar price before GST.
> 
> I know of at least two colleagues of mine who were about to buy new vehicles several years ago. A Honda truck and a high end Infiniti. Both knew exactly what they wanted. Both got fed up With the antics of the local dealers. Both sent out queries to dealers in a neighbouring province. No trade ins. Straight here is the cheque, I will drive it away. Both saved thousands, one was 3K. The other 5K.


Yes, we all probably know of similar stories ian and we all have different views of negotiating as well. 

I just got off the phone with the dealer who called to tell me when they will be delivering the car to us (tomorrow afternoon).

I didn't mention in the OP that our mechanic flagged it would need one set of brakes done soon but the other set were still quite good wear wise. As part of the deal we did, the dealer agreed to do the one set of brakes as part of the deal. In his phone call just now he told me he had decided after talking to their mechanic that they might as well do both sets. Ever heard of a dealer doing that for you AFTER the deal is signed!!!! 

Not all dealers and deals are equal ian. People are all individuals and the RELATIONSHIP any two people develop depends entirely on those 2 individuals. 

I believe that most individuals approach a transaction from an adversarial position. I do not. I work hard at developing a relationship in which I make it clear that I want a win/win outcome. Sometimes I may not be able to have the other party believe that is where I am coming from but more often than not, I do succeed at getting them to believe that is the case. I only think a deal is a 'good deal' if both parties come away smiling and I think in this case it is clearly obvious that 'Paul' doesn't see me as an adversary, he is treating me like a friend.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> ...
> The LIST price may not change much but the MOTIVATION to do a deal is not going to get any higher than it is right now and that puts the buyer in the driver's seat (pun intended) as far as negotiating is concerned and I just love negotiating.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Thanks!


Where are you located andrewf? I have it in my mind that you may be located in London, Ontario. The dealer I bought from is nearby in St. Thomas if that is the case and I would be happy to recommend him to you.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I live in the GTA, but am not opposed to doing business with dealers farther afield.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My experience is that the sales and the service areas of a dealership are two very different animals. My understanding is that service is where the money is. On more than one occasion we have purchased a new vehicle from one dealer with the intention of having all service done by another dealer.

When we lived in Ottawa we bought an import from a dealer in Pointe Claire, a sub. of Montreal. Every dealer we went to in Ottawa was priced within $150 of each other. We were told that there was an 'agreement' between dealers in the area at that time. We went down the road 60 miles to my home town and saved a fast $500. A long time ago, when $500 was real money! Had the car serviced in Ottawa, then Calgary with no issues whatsoever. In fact the service was so good purchased 4 more of the manufacturer's products over the years.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> I live in the GTA, but am not opposed to doing business with dealers farther afield.


Well, check the inventory here and if anything interests you ask for Paul.








519 Cars - St Thomas Used Car Dealership


Used cars in St Thomas and surrounding areas. 519 Cars has you covered with a wide range of used Trucks, SUVs, Cars, and Vans.




www.519cars.com


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Prior to buying our Honda we looked at three other cars. Two private, one dealer. All 3 or 4 years old, low mileage, full load imports.

All three claimed ’no accidents’. We ran all three VINs. All three had been in accidents, one quite bad with lots of front end damage. By the time we got to the fourth, at a dealer lot, we ran our own carfax even though the dealer provided one.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Prior to buying our Honda we looked at three other cars. Two private, one dealer. All 3 or 4 years old, low mileage, full load imports.
> 
> All three claimed ’no accidents’. We ran all three VINs. All three had been in accidents, one quite bad with lots of front end damage. By the time we got to the fourth, at a dealer lot, we ran our own carfax even though the dealer provided one.


As always 'caveat emptor' applies ian. Even with a Carfax report, there is no guarantee that a car has not been in an accident. Carfax can only report what has been reported to them. If the Police were involved the accident will probably be reported to Carfax but even then, some small rural police force may not bother. A body shop or garage may or may not report an accident to Carfax.








How Carfax works, and why you should take it with a grain of salt


You see that fox all over the place nowadays. On TV commercials, on billboards, on buses, peeking out the windows of car dealerships, in inflatable form standing next to Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man. He's the Car Fox, his reassuring smile telling you that your used car purchase...




oppositelock.kinja.com





The only thing you can be sure of with Carfax is the vehicle owner history. The service history again may or may not be reported to them. You have to try and read between the lines. So it might say, 'no accidents reported' but then you notice under service history that a bumper was replaced, etc. 

One check you can do yourself on a first inspection on the lot is to look at all the body panel gaps. They should be even from top to bottom and not a mile wide or near non-existant. Of course on N. American makers cars this is not as reliable an indicator. But if a car has poor panel fit, why are you buying it anyway. 

Personally, I will no longer buy any vehicle from any of the 'Big 3' American manufacturers. There are just too many better built vehicles available from European or Asian makers.

I consider it mandatory to have my own trusted mechanic inspect a car just as I would not buy a house without an inspection by a professional before making an offer. Too often, people pinch pennies and then end up spending a whole lot more down the road.

When I had my mechanic look at the car we have bought he just said, 'I'll add it on to your next service'. That's his way of saying, 'I know I'll get your ongoing business, so the inspection is no charge.' I'll have it in for a service next week just because I know the car has been sitting unsold for several months.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I agree. We would not bother going into a Ford, GM, Chrysler dealership if we were looking for a new vehicle...and we have not in the past. Not just the vehicle. We have found a significant difference in the dealer service depts. I had a new company car every year from an American manufacturer. Even though I only had them for a year I was unfortunate enough to have to get to know their service depts. The very last experience was having my SUV delivered to me at the door after having its transmission replaced at 23K. Got in the car and noticed the engine light was on. Another one week delay as an engine module was sourced and installed. Day and night difference between the experience we had on our personal import vehicle. Not just one dealer, several dealers, several cities in Canada.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I agree. We would not bother going into a Ford, GM, Chrysler dealership if we were looking for a new vehicle...and we have not in the past. Not just the vehicle. We have found a significant difference in the dealer service depts. I had a new company car every year from an American manufacturer. Even though I only had them for a year I was unfortunate enough to have to get to know their service depts. The very last experience was having my SUV delivered to me at the door after having its transmission replaced at 23K. Got in the car and noticed the engine light was on. Another one week delay as an engine module was sourced and installed. Day and night difference between the experience we had on our personal import vehicle. Not just one dealer, several dealers, several cities in Canada.


What amazes me the most about people who buy from the 'Big Three' ian is how they accept RUST as normal. If you look at almost any of their vehicles that is 3 or more years old, they are likely to have started rusting out around the wheel wells, etc. You don't see that on 'imports' normally at all. How is it that buyers don't seem to realize that?

The 14 year old Kia Sportage that we just traded in was still totally rust free! Find a Ford, Chevy, etc. that someone can say that about. Not gonna happen.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> What amazes me the most about people who buy from the 'Big Three' ian is how they accept RUST as normal. If you look at almost any of their vehicles that is 3 or more years old, they are likely to have started rusting out around the wheel wells, etc. You don't see that on 'imports' normally at all. How is it that buyers don't seem to realize that?
> 
> The 14 year old Kia Sportage that we just traded in was still totally rust free! Find a Ford, Chevy, etc. that someone can say that about. Not gonna happen.


I think 3 years is stretch for rust from domestic but I do agree some imports are made better. Two of my friend's GM vehicles are 11 and 12 years old with no rust. Some of the cheaper import cars do rust out fast it seems.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Sure, some imports have a good reliability history but there are a lot of others that are horrendous. Older BMW, Audi, or Fiats can be terribly expensive to repair.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Google any vehicle "complaints" and they all have problems.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think you should read import as Japanese. European automakers don't have particularly good reliability, particularly the luxury brands. Don't even speak of Fiat.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Accepting upper case rust as normal from the Big 3 is simply coming from someone who despises the Big 3. Okay to despise them, but no need to make yourself look foolish by saying that all who own Big 3 products are mental defectives. To say someone accepts rust within a few years as normal is tantamount to saying there's something seriously wrong with that person. So much so that those with a scintilla of intelligence are 'amazed' by their stupidity.

We have 2 Ford Ranger pickups we keep at our off-grid location. One is a 2005, the other a 2008. Both are regularly parked within 50 feet of the ocean. Sometimes, launching from a trailer, they get a little bit _into_ the ocean. Not a spot of rust on either. I cannot say the same for some of the non-Big 3 vehicles that have been barged out here. Moreover, I'll vouch for their reliability. That's one reason they were chosen. No service stations here. Fix it yourself if able, otherwise it's not moving again. The Rangers always start, everything always works. Neither has ever done so much as burn out a taillight. The older one got new tires a few years ago. It also got a new battery this year. But getting 14 years out of the original battery is unobjectionable. The 2008 has its original tires, battery and almost all else.

We also have a Kubota side-by-side ATV, bought new for about $18k including taxes, etc. A lot more expensive than either Ranger. No shortage of rust there. But the diesel engine still runs well and all its basic functions are still intact, like the dump box, etc. But in terms of rust, it makes the Big 3 products look stellar.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

How many Japanese classic cars do you see driving around? Not many because most of them rusted into oblivion, even if the engines kept going. Japanese vehicles were notoriously bad for rusting in the 1970's and early 80's. They were bad even compared to the "Big 3", so they were forced to improve their quality drastically. I think they eventually pulled ahead in their sheet metal technology and it took American manufacturers a while to catch up.

The idea that American cars are bad for rusting is mainly a holdover from the 1970's and 1980's, when basically all manufacturers had issues with rust. And even then, I've owned plenty of cars from that era that had only minimal rust after 10 years. 

All manufacturers have made extensive improvements in rustproofing over the last 30 years.

I'd wager that most 10-15 year old American cars on the road today have minimal or no rust, unless they were infrequently washed. My mom has a 1988 with very minimal rust (it is garage kept, but still driven in winter).


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

97 Camry had no rust when it was finally retired by our son in 2018. The 2006 Accord and 2007 Solara have not rust. To be fare though, the Solara has been garaged every winter.

Our 77 Corolla did get small rust spots on the roof six month after delivery. The Toyota region service person made an appt at the dealership to look at it. I was expecting a fight. Instead, he looked at it said that it would be fixed. Asked for a weeks notice ahead of time so that the dealer could provide us with a loner car for five days.. And they did. Bought two Celicas and a Camry after that positive experience.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nathan79 said:


> I'd wager that most 10-15 year old American cars on the road today have minimal or no rust, unless they were infrequently washed.


Most vehicles will not have rust problems if they are cleaned properly. However, road sand/salt, paint chips and dings, gravel road driving will all increase the chances of rust to form. Getting exposed parts and surface rust fixed quickly will greatly extend the life of painted panels along with a good coat of wax.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Most vehicles will not have rust problems if they are cleaned properly. However, road sand/salt, paint chips and dings, gravel road driving will all increase the chances of rust to form. Getting exposed parts and surface rust fixed quickly will greatly extend the life of painted panels along with a good coat of wax.


I kind of wonder if you take all the time and money associated with meticulous cleaning, waxing, rust-treating if it is really worth the investment. My car is about 10 years old. A healthy amount of stone chips that I haven't bothered to repair. A couple are starting to rust minorly. I am not planning to keep this car much longer. I don't think I would get paid much more for it as a trade-in or sale if it was immaculate body vs its current state. Maybe a few hundred bucks. I think people get a little too fixated on their car as a status symbol. It is mostly an appliance, a bit of a consumer toy, and lastly for me a piece of fashion.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> I kind of wonder if you take all the time and money associated with meticulous cleaning, waxing, rust-treating if it is really worth the investment.


You don't need to be meticulous about it and I've never rust-treated any car. Twice a year I hand wash and wax, quick rinse at the car wash for $2 every now and then. BTW, the stone chips won't rust with the wax on it, had good chip on the hood of my 2002 for over 10 years ... still no rust.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Well in the interest of answering the question of rust other than just my own opinion, I Googled it and these two articles seem the most applicable.









The 21 Most Rust Prone Cars On The Road (5 That Are Impenetrable)


Domestic vehicles, particularly those that were produced during the nineties seem to be the worst offenders when it comes to rust.




www.hotcars.com













14 Cars That Are Notorious Rust Buckets (And 15 That Never Rust)


Here is a list of 15 cars that have a history of poor rust protection, and 15 that have been known to go a long time without rusting.




www.hotcars.com





And although I admit to a personal bias, I do seem to be correct in my assessment that domestic is generally more prone than imports.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Well in the interest of answering the question of rust other than just my own opinion, I Googled it and these two articles seem the most applicable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure you think hotcars.com provides weight to your domestics will rust in 3 years theory, but no, it doesn't.

Also note that nowadays many vehicles use plastic, aluminum and/or composite materials for a significant portion of the body panels which of course, don't rust.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

1 winter in Canada will make the underbody of any vehicle look decades older than any old vehicle that isn't driven in such harsh environment. Regardless of origin

I will never buy a new vehicle i intend to drive in a single Canadian winter. At least clear bra the entire front quarter or ceramic coat if you do


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

m3s said:


> 1 winter in Canada will make the underbody of any vehicle look decades older than any old vehicle that isn't driven in such harsh environment. Regardless of origin
> 
> I will never buy a new vehicle i intend to drive in a single Canadian winter. At least clear bra the entire front quarter or ceramic coat if you do


There are millions of vehicles on the road in Canada that are 5 - 15 years old and even older with little or no rust. My GF's daughter has a winter driven 1999 Pontiac Sunfire that has no rust.

Almost all new vehicles come with clear coat over the paint to protect it. A front bra is only necessary if you do a lot of travel on gravel roads.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

From working on vehicles myself, nuts/bolts on winter driven vehicles look decades older than fair weather vehicles

As a hobby detailer, the front end of a new vehicle driven in Canada is indeed far more beat up than a fair weather vehicle. The winter environment sand blasts and chips the front end. At best the clear coat is rough and needs to be polished (diminished) far sooner

I'd rather buy an old non winter driven car than a new one to drive in Canadian winter


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Where rust matters, most people never look.

The frame is the foundation of a vehicle, and a beautiful looking vehicle can be written off because the frame is rusted through.

Small vehicles have small frames and rust through much faster than large vehicle with truck types of frames.

When we used to pick parts.....we could pick an engine up with our hands on some small cars. Pick up the entire exhaust system without problem.

But for big SUVs and trucks.........you need a forklift truck to move the big parts around.

I wonder how many people know that the front bumper on their little car is made of styrofome. It just has a plastic cover over it.

I have seen leaf springs that were made of hard rubber but looked like steel leaf springs.

People have no idea, but I can say that you get what you pay for. We stocked all kinds of parts and used to compare them.

We had spark plugs that were labelled for "off brands" and compared them to AC Delco plugs. There is no comparison.

Same with brake pads, rotors, wiring, hoses.........just about anything regarding parts.......you get what you pay for.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> From working on vehicles myself, nuts/bolts on winter driven vehicles look decades older than fair weather vehicles
> 
> As a hobby detailer, the front end of a new vehicle driven in Canada is indeed far more beat up than a fair weather vehicle. The winter environment sand blasts and chips the front end. At best the clear coat is rough and needs to be polished (diminished) far sooner
> 
> I'd rather buy an old non winter driven car than a new one to drive in Canadian winter


For sure a "garage queen" will likely age better than a winter driven one, the same for low mileage ones. For a daily driver I wouldn't be concerned about it being winter driven or even working on them myself, which I do.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Doesn't even have to be a garage queen. My 10 year old daily driver in Europe (brand apparently known to rust) looked brand new underneath compared to a relatively brand new vehicle (that is apparently a brand known not to rust) after only a few winters in Canada

Canada is a very harsh environment compared to what most vehicles experience. Even just taking the wheel off you will see rust on a winter driven hub compared to a fair weather vehicle. Motorbikes can also stay pristine much easier by not driving in salt baths


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

cainvest said:


> I'm sure you think hotcars.com provides weight to your domestics will rust in 3 years theory, but no, it doesn't.
> 
> Also note that nowadays many vehicles use plastic, aluminum and/or composite materials for a significant portion of the body panels which of course, don't rust.


Surely there cannot be a more impeccable source of full, accurate and fair reporting than hotcars.com.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> Doesn't even have to be a garage queen. My 10 year old daily driver in Europe (brand apparently known to rust) looked brand new underneath compared to a relatively brand new vehicle (that is apparently a brand known not to rust) after only a few winters in Canada
> 
> Canada is a very harsh environment compared to what most vehicles experience. Even just taking the wheel off you will see rust on a winter driven hub compared to a fair weather vehicle. Motorbikes can also stay pristine much easier by not driving in salt baths


For sure, even coastal area cars tend to rust faster but I don't see it as a big deal for a daily driver. Simple, proper care will make most vehicles last longer than people want to (and typically do) own them.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I suppose I'm talking more aesthetics (clear coat) and ease of changing parts (rusted bolts/metal on metal parts) vs frames rusting apart. Even scraping ice off vehicle scratches the glass and clear coat (Tesla's new auto heat pump sounds appealing)

Clear bra on the front quarter for Canadian winter is no-brainer for me. I removed one and the paint was well preserved. I also clay/seal paint spring/fall and wax for the shine but for those who don't enjoy that process ceramic coating sounds pretty good


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

cainvest said:


> For sure, even coastal area cars tend to rust faster but I don't see it as a big deal for a daily driver. Simple, proper care will make most vehicles last longer than people want to (and typically do) own them.


Proper care? I'm in southern Ontario, I've got a 10 year old minivan, sure it has some rusty paint chips, but it isnt' like it's falling apart, and the Dodge Caravan isn't well known as a quality long lasting vehicle.
I've found that somewhere between 7-10 years vehicles get "too expensive" to repair anyway.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> Proper care? I'm in southern Ontario, I've got a 10 year old minivan, sure it has some rusty paint chips, but it isnt' like it's falling apart, and the Dodge Caravan isn't well known as a quality long lasting vehicle.
> I've found that somewhere between 7-10 years vehicles get "too expensive" to repair anyway.


Really depends on the vehicle, some can get expensive, much more so if you're not doing the work yourself. Overall, unless major failures occur, maintenance costs are normally much lower than buying a new(er) one. Most people don't like dumping any money into an old vehicle because the value is low.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Proper care? I'm in southern Ontario, I've got a 10 year old minivan, sure it has some rusty paint chips, but it isnt' like it's falling apart, and the Dodge Caravan isn't well known as a quality long lasting vehicle.
> I've found that somewhere between 7-10 years vehicles get "too expensive" to repair anyway.


I never understand how people can say it gets 'too expensive' to maintain a car at a given age. Our 14 year old Kia was still only costing us under $1000 per year to maintain. We decided to take advantage of current circumstances to change vehicles but there was no real financial justification for doing so. You can't buy a vehicle for under $1000 a year vs. maintain one. 

To me a car only becomes 'too expensive to repair' when something really major occurs like blowing an engine. One aspect that did impact our decision was the ability to buy parts. The manufacturers seem to stop making parts a lot sooner than they used to. When replacing the radiator on our Kia, our mechanic needed a rubber O ring for the heating manifold. When he tried to order one, he was told the part is no longer available, period. He had to find a workaround that I won't bother going into. 

This unavailability of replacement parts is to me more significant than a repair being 'too expensive', it can make a repair impossible to do at all.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Most people don't fix their old cars. They just drive them until the wheels fall off.

When the MTO sets up vehicle inspections at service centers they keep the tow trucks very busy.

Unsafe vehicles is a big problem in Ontario, especially in the GTA area where many drivers don't have insurance either.

In one checkpoint inspection only 7 vehicles passed.


 7 passed


 7 failed


 4 plates were voluntarily terminated because the registered owner felt their vehicle would fail


 4 failed to show


 10 plates were removed after inspections revealed the vehicles were unsafe









Cracking down on unsafe vehicles


READ: 19 charges have been laid as a result of a joint collaboration between North Bay police and MTO focusing on vehicle fitness. Eric Taschner reports.



northernontario.ctvnews.ca





It is even worse for commercial vehicles.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/unsafe-trucks-ontario-1.5383994


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> I never understand how people can say it gets 'too expensive' to maintain a car at a given age. Our 14 year old Kia was still only costing us under $1000 per year to maintain. We decided to take advantage of current circumstances to change vehicles but there was no real financial justification for doing so. You can't buy a vehicle for under $1000 a year vs. maintain one.
> 
> To me a car only becomes 'too expensive to repair' when something really major occurs like blowing an engine. One aspect that did impact our decision was the ability to buy parts. The manufacturers seem to stop making parts a lot sooner than they used to. When replacing the radiator on our Kia, our mechanic needed a rubber O ring for the heating manifold. When he tried to order one, he was told the part is no longer available, period. He had to find a workaround that I won't bother going into.
> 
> This unavailability of replacement parts is to me more significant than a repair being 'too expensive', it can make a repair impossible to do at all.


The hydraulic pump for ABS on my car died. The part alone is ~1500. I could get a used one for a couple hundred. The car itself is only worth a bit more.

I think the only way old cars remain cheap to run is to find used parts and do the work yourself. Not everyone has the aptitude or the inclination.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> The hydraulic pump for ABS on my car died. The part alone is ~1500. I could get a used one for a couple hundred. The car itself is only worth a bit more.


Type and year of car?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I never understand how people can say it gets 'too expensive' to maintain a car at a given age. Our 14 year old Kia was still only costing us under $1000 per year to maintain. We decided to take advantage of current circumstances to change vehicles but there was no real financial justification for doing so. You can't buy a vehicle for under $1000 a year vs. maintain one.
> 
> To me a car only becomes 'too expensive to repair' when something really major occurs like blowing an engine. One aspect that did impact our decision was the ability to buy parts. The manufacturers seem to stop making parts a lot sooner than they used to. When replacing the radiator on our Kia, our mechanic needed a rubber O ring for the heating manifold. When he tried to order one, he was told the part is no longer available, period. He had to find a workaround that I won't bother going into.
> 
> This unavailability of replacement parts is to me more significant than a repair being 'too expensive', it can make a repair impossible to do at all.


When the parts and the repair get to the same value as the vehicle then the vehicle becomes not worth it. Perhaps 'too expensive' is wrong words, not of value would be more appropriate. 

I have a very close family member that maintains all of my vehicles. He doesn't charge me for labor (though I find very creative ways to pay him). We usually drive our cars for 10-12 years before I have to start deciding if it's worth it any more. The last major issue I had was with the transmission. I don't have all the details as he takes care of it and I trust him. Essentially, it was something really major and one of two thing it could be. One of them would require rebuild of the transmission, the other was replace some round things that were also expensive. Parts along, the major rehaul would have been $5K plus, the other one the parts were $1800. My vehicle was only worth about $7K. Other things are really starting to age, so now it's at the point where it's more expensive to maintain than rid of it. We were supposed to sell it in March and are currently stuck due to COVID. To keep things going, in addition to the major job, it needed a new battery, new tires, and a few other things. So right now, it sits in my garage most of the time.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The replacement value of our vehicle is more important to us as the market value. We like our full load, 6cly Accord. Low mileage, it has all the options we want. The replacement value, ie the cost to get a similar replacement, would be far greater than it's probable $5K or $6K value. When it came time to dropping $1800 on a timing belt , some front end work, and a Costco battery the decision was a no brainer for us. We expect to get at least another 3 or 4 years of service before having to make another decision like that. So for us, that money is well spent. We had the same experience with the 97 Camry. Packed it in a 425K with never a problem.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> When the parts and the repair get to the same value as the vehicle then the vehicle becomes not worth it. Perhaps 'too expensive' is wrong words, not of value would be more appropriate.


Not sure about the "not worth it" part. I replaced the entire front and rear suspension on my 2002 a few years back, probably equal to the value of the car itself. Car is still driving fine and waaaayyyyyy cheaper than replacing it.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

andrewf said:


> The hydraulic pump for ABS on my car died. The part alone is ~1500. I could get a used one for a couple hundred. The car itself is only worth a bit more.
> 
> I think the only way old cars remain cheap to run is to find used parts and do the work yourself. Not everyone has the aptitude or the inclination.


True, but if you have a modest income then it pays to learn how to do a few things. Or you can drop a few months of disposable income on a basic repair.

My brother can fix anything with a motor and he's been keeping my garden tractor running long past when it should have been replaced. Money saved. I just shingled my house (80% myself with a little help from my GF and brother) and saved $3000 in labour. Not bad for 2 days of work.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

If you have the aptitude and inclination, it is great. But it is hard to be good and knowledgeable at everything. Some skills are more valuable than others. Being completely helpless when it comes to basic repairs can get quite expensive, but there are diminishing returns to doing things that require more knowledge, skill, tools, etc. Does it make sense to tile a bathroom yourself if you're spending a lot on material and you don't really know what you're doing? Just an example.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

As with anything, you have to choose your battles and match it with your skill set. Auto related I mostly just swap my own winter/summer tires spring and fall. I have a floor jack and an electric impact wrench so it only takes 20 minutes. But I can't be bothered to change the oil so I just pay the garage to do it and my brother keeps my aging garden tractor running.

My skills are in home renos and DIY and that's where I do almost all of the work myself.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> The replacement value of our vehicle is more important to us as the market value. We like our full load, 6cly Accord. Low mileage, it has all the options we want. The replacement value, ie the cost to get a similar replacement, would be far greater than it's probable $5K or $6K value. When it came time to dropping $1800 on a timing belt , some front end work, and a Costco battery the decision was a no brainer for us. We expect to get at least another 3 or 4 years of service before having to make another decision like that. So for us, that money is well spent. We had the same experience with the 97 Camry. Packed it in a 425K with never a problem.


There seems to be a definite difference of opinion around when a vehicle is 'not worth repairing'. It seems to centre on this idea that if the repair/s required exceed the trade-in 'value' of the vehicle then some people will say that it is not worth doing the repairs.

I agree with you ian that if people are going to look at it in terms of 'value of the vehicle' then they should be looking at the replacement value, not the trade-in value.

Even then, financially, the comparison will always come down on the repair it side. For example, let's say you need a $2000 repair on a vehicle with a replacement value of $6k but doing the repair will as you say mean you can drive it for another 4 years. Then that is a cost of $500 per year.

Now you compare that to buying a new(used) vehicle that needs to current repairs but will cost you $20k as a used 3-4 year old vehicle and you can expect to drive for 3-4 years without needing any major repairs. If you try to compare that financially over the next 4 years as you did the repair on the existing vehicle, clearly that won't work. Amortizing the $20k over 4 years will cost you 10 times as much. So you have to come up with some hypothetical time period or simply accept that you can't compare the two financially at all. 

It will always be financially less to repair than to replace a vehicle. It is only when you simply cannot repair it that it becomes 'not worth repairing' in the sense that it CANNOT be repaired.

Deciding to buy a 'new' vehicle is NOT about justifying it financially, that cannot be done if your existing vehicle is repairable. You buy a new vehicle because you WANT a new vehicle, not because you NEED one.

I tend towards seeing a car as transportation but I also admit there is enjoyment in driving a nice looking car. I also admit that sometimes I just want a change. Not because a change is needed, it is just wanted. We could have continued on with our old vehicle but we wanted a change and we can afford it.

You can't justify buying a new shirt when you already have a dozen perfectly good shirts in your wardrobe. You buy one because you like the look of it and because you can afford to buy another one if you want to. Sometimes the only justification needed for a decision is just that, because you can.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ian said:


> The replacement value of our vehicle is more important to us as the market value. We like our full load, 6cly Accord. Low mileage, it has all the options we want. The replacement value, ie the cost to get a similar replacement, would be far greater than it's probable $5K or $6K value. When it came time to dropping $1800 on a timing belt , some front end work, and a Costco battery the decision was a no brainer for us. We expect to get at least another 3 or 4 years of service before having to make another decision like that. So for us, that money is well spent. We had the same experience with the 97 Camry. Packed it in a 425K with never a problem.


Sorry, I wasn't very clear. You are right replacement value important. I didn't explain that I consider how much we estimate we will may need to put in over the next few years, and compare to what it would cost to buy a newer vehicle. We also consider the reliability. The last time we replaced our vehicle, it was 15 years old. We should have replaced it at 12 years, as we kept having breakdowns. Even though we did major work between year 12-14, we decided enough was enough. 

We don't really have the aptitude or time to do our own work, but are very fortunate that a family does. We hate going their because its fight to pay a fair value, but do because he is so trustworthy. We would pay to bring it to him to a shop, but he wouldn't charge us at his shop. We provide support in other areas. The cost isn't that high for us. Generally, when he tells us it's not worth it, then it's not worth it. Everything is repairable, but there comes a time where the effort is better placed in getting a new vehicle. When I don't feel my kids or I are safe driving the vehicle, the time has come. Definitely not always a financial decision.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Your need to be so careful. We gave our 97 Camry to our son. We only needed one car at the time and only had one parking spot in our rental. A year later son says it needs work. He takes it to the mechanic that his GF's so called trusted mechanic. Gets a long long list, $3500 to fix. Some items I knew did not require work. He was going to scrap it. I advised him to pay the $80 fee and get out of there. Upshot...our long time mechanic did new tires, something else, back on the road for $1200. The first estimate was BS.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Some mechanics are crooks, others are incompetent. Often it is hard to tell which.


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