# How closely can I copy a business from another country?



## indexxx

If I see a great business in another country, how closely can I copy their model if they do not do business in my country? Say I see a unique restaurant and know it will fly where I live, could they touch me if I used the same name and sold similar products in a similarly designed outlet? They would eventually find out due to web presence, (and the fact that I worked for them at one point). I have absolutely no morals about using someone else's idea (business is business), and I would not use trademarked materials.


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## carverman

indexxx said:


> If I see a great business in another country, how closely can I copy their model if they do not do business in my country?.* I have absolutely no morals about using someone else's idea *(business is business), and I would not use trademarked materials.


Well here's my .02c worth.

You can copy any product, idea, or similar sounding name, until you become successful.....and they catch up with you.
Once they decide to sue you based on similar named business operation where similar methods, decor, or anything else unique to that business is being deliberately copied, you better have deep pockets and a good lawyer.

On Dragon's Den there was a new business pitch where some young women (who had gone as far as getting smart body hugging "uniforms" and shorts were pitching their business (Misty Lube?) to the Dragons. Jim Treliving owner of the Mr. Lube franchise across Canada/US? warned them that if they proceeded, they could be hearing from his lawyer and that was it. 

Don't know if they went ahead with the cheesy idea of trying to make a buck using cleavage as an attraction for their business. Now this was another crafty attempt to attract business from an established business in Canada..and the US, I think, but
they were focused on expanding their one location trial business, not thinking about an established business coming after them
for copying similar methods/processes. 

I'm sure Kevin O'Leary (Dragons' Den chief critic) would have a better comment on your idea. :biggrin:


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## Cal

If the shoe were on the other foot, and someone copied your successful business name and model, how long would it take for you to sue them?

Ur not thinking of starting a Canada Money Forum are you? :tongue-new:


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## indexxx

Cal said:


> If the shoe were on the other foot, and someone copied your successful business name and model, how long would it take for you to sue them?
> 
> Ur not thinking of starting a Canada Money Forum are you? :tongue-new:


Ya, in honour of myself, I was gonna call it Canadian Funny Moron! But seriously, folks...

Well, if the shoe were on the other foot, I would love to use it to kick their a55- but that's my question. Legally, what can they do? You're allowed to use the same business name if you're not in geographic competition, you can't trademark colours or types of food, and my recipes would differ slightly from theirs. I'll set up a fictional example. 

Fictional Indexxx, while living abroad, works for a successful, family-owned restaurant company that includes one small, very busy outlet called "How You Slice It". It's a tropically-themed pizza slice place, with a brick-and-tile wood-fired pizza in the window to attract passersby, Caribbean side dishes, Hawaiian shirts on the staff, and bright pastel colours and wood accent decor to resemble a beach house. When he returns home to Canada, our hero realizes there are no pizza-slice places in his city at all, and that "How You Slice It" is the perfect name and concept for his startup. He knows it's bad form to crib his former employer's concept, but they're in Belize. So from a legal standpoint, what, if anything, could they do, besides stick pins in an Indexxx doll? (note to self... market my own line of dolls). He's selling a common food product, and using a name in another country is legal, even for the same type of business- I'm sure there are a thousand 'Joe's Garage' car repair shops with similar layouts in different, non-competative areas. Of course, they can prove where the basic concept came from- but for example, there are dozens of seafood restaurants called "Boathouse" scattered around North America, all with patios, nautical themes, etc, that are for the most part not owned by the same company.


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## Plugging Along

If there is no trademark, copyright, patent ect on their name, then you could do what you want. However, if it is a large corp or someone with deep pockets, they could sue your butt off, even if you were right, until you go bankrupt.


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## Mall Guy

Do they have trademark protection on their name and style in Canada ? Or do they have exclusive product distribution rights ? If they are a large multinational, who will eventually want to enter the Canadian market, they will win by wearing you down (best have your patent lawyer as a business partner). An interesting recent case on point is Target Corp vs. Target Appeal owned by Fairweather Ltd (and one CMF member who has had to defend her trade name). After a few years and a couple of rounds in court, pretty sure Target Corp wrote a nice big fat cheque to be able to use the name in Canada. One just needs to be bulletproof. I would also suggest that you need at least one unique and distinguishing feature, product or style that you can point to and say "see we are different".

Also, what makes you sure that this restaurant (if it is a restaurant) will fly in Canada . . . many, many haven't . . . and some have been backed by some pretty big players . . . Boston Market (McDonald's), Koo Koo Roo Chicken, Fuddruckers, Olive Garden and every indoor kids play-land ever open by someone coming back from Spring break in Florida . . . undertake extensive due diligence, market research and focus groups, and then hire an expert in the field.


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## GreenAvenue

indexxx said:


> I'm sure there are a thousand 'Joe's Garage' car repair shops with similar layouts in different, non-competative areas. Of course, they can prove where the basic concept came from- but for example, there are dozens of seafood restaurants called "Boathouse" scattered around North America, all with patios, nautical themes, etc, that are for the most part not owned by the same company.


I think here is your answer. I have seen many _many_ pizza slice corners in Europe so that is probably how they got their idea. There is one in Fredericton, New Brunswick (although I don't know it's name) and in Saint John is one too. They don't have that brick wood fired ovens you refer too but I can imagine someone would build one to get a slice of that market. 

In my modest opinion is "how you slice it" not a very good name and I would just come up with your own name, "PizzaPoint" has a nice alliteration. I understand you don't want to be rude or steal someone's concept but I think taking on their name would bring you more risk than taking the concept. Whatever you do: GOOD LUCK !! :smilet-digitalpoint


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## Dopplegangerr

GreenAvenue said:


> In my modest opinion is "how you slice it" not a very good name and I would just come up with your own name, "PizzaPoint" has a nice alliteration.


Umm I think he was just using this as an example. Not the actual business name unless I am mistaken....


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## carverman

He can copy any idea, name or method as long as he doesn't get caught at it by the original business. 
IF its a one owner single type of business in Central America, then the chances of them finding out are slim unless he expands the 
business into multiple places of business up here. Certainly you can't patent making a pizza (or whatever it is) or the wood fired oven (baking process), but there's more to running a successful business than just copying an idea from somewhere else.
And, there are no guarantees of what works in certain countries would work out here as a successful business.

Some pizza chains here do sell pizza by the slice, so that is not really a new concept, here, only the decor.

The Target example is the exclusive right to use a name registered in Canada. If Fairweathers registerd that name as their exclusive
marketing brand and even if they never actually used it, a larger multinational (Target USA) trying to use the name here would be
up against stiff opposition. Since both of these chains have deep pockets, a settlement can be reached if one pays the other
for use of the name.


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## Berubeland

Indexxx, There's nothing wrong with copying another successful idea. That is good business to reproduce a similar yet proven business model. 

I know more about trademark law now than I did before my business name was appropriated by another company in the identical business, a little more than I'm comfortable with. 

In any case there a couple very real world problems with out right copying another confusingly similar name/brand 

Lets say that the restaurant in questions is Jack Astors. You copy the idea but call it Jack Pastors. 

Jack Astors is an established business with a website that's been around for quite a few years. Jack Pastors is brand new and has a brand new website you make yours look like theirs. 

All of a sudden Jack Astors will be your secretary as everyone and their dog trying to find Jack Pastors gets redirected to their website and telephone numbers. Now if you were paying that secretary, she'd say nice things about you, but Jack Astors is paying her. So she's not going to say nice things about you or your new restaurant, she'll inform them that you are copying them and you're a bit of a scoundrel. Jack Astors will not be amused. 

You will also get phone calls about them as well. Phone calls and inquiries that waste your time. 

Then there's trademark law. As a small start up you don't belong there. It's really expensive and generally best left to well established corporate brands. In my case I had no choice and a hell of a case. 

There are a lot of gray areas in trademark law. The first is the general concept underlying trademarks which is that before a trademark can be given the trademark must be made famous. This is called a "tradename" and is the interim step before the trademark. Otherwise you could pay to trademark the dictionary and own all the words that could potentially be used in advertising. 
If you are awarded a trademark and don't use it or "make it famous" anyone can apply to have it expunged (removed) from the registry of trademarks. 

About 90% of restaurants fail the first year in business. If you do make it past that hurdle and become a successful franchise the last thing you need is a large complex expensive trademark dispute to hang around you like a giant ball and chain. 

Frankly I'd go with an original name at the very least.


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## carverman

Good info "B". 
Parody off a existing business name is a dangerous game here. 

Even if you inadvertently chose a name for your business that sounds too much alike like a huge corporation, they can come after you and force you to change or sue you. Many large corporations have deep pockets to trademark or legally own the rights to their products. 

Example: Years ago (in the 70s when I lived in Mississauga, there was a great burger joint on Dixe road called "Big Mack"...they were next to a big trucker terminal and did a roaring business...until McD's decided that the name of the burger joint resembled one of their registered products "Big Mac" and their lawyers paid a visit to the owner.

Even though he was miles away from the nearest McD's (at that time), the big corp had set up shop in the GTA and decided that since he was in the SAME line of business as them, he shouldn't use that name, even though the spelling was a bit different. 
(The burger joint owner named it after one of the huge Mack trucks) and had no idea that McD's had a designs on that name.

I used to frequent that joint and noticed one day that the sign was changed to "burger place" or something to that effect.
I asked him why and he said that McD's had forced him to change the name.

Another incident here in Ottawa a few years ago, when the winter Olympics were in Calgary..the first time the Olympics had been in Canada for a quite a few years. The Olympic Committee has trademarked the name and the 5 ring sign and if you wanted to use the name or the symbols, you had to either be a sponser or pay big bucks to them. 

A single restaurant here was called the Olympic restaurant (they did not use the symbols) established for many years.
The Olympic committee lawyers came after them and threaten to take them to court. The owner fought back and won from what I remember because the restaurant was a full time business and the Olympics last only 2 weeks when in Canada.

Multinational chains can trademark ideas/products and not use them until someone else (not a franchisee trys to use them) so it's a delicate situation when opening a business, that might be owned somewhere else by a multinational..especially in tourist areas of the world.


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## Mall Guy

GreenAvenue said:


> There is one in Fredericton, New Brunswick (although I don't know it's name) and in Saint John is one too. They don't have that brick wood fired ovens you refer too but I can imagine someone would build one to get a slice of that market.


In Halifax, there is like five slice joints on one corner . . . "slice corner" . . . is this thread really about ripping-off a pizza slice concept ??? Unless your going to call it pizza pizza pizza, pretty sure you can move on !


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## indexxx

Berubeland said:


> Indexxx, There's nothing wrong with copying another successful idea. That is good business to reproduce a similar yet proven business model.
> 
> I know more about trademark law now than I did before my business name was appropriated by another company in the identical business, a little more than I'm comfortable with.
> 
> In any case there a couple very real world problems with out right copying another confusingly similar name/brand
> 
> Lets say that the restaurant in questions is Jack Astors. You copy the idea but call it Jack Pastors.
> 
> Jack Astors is an established business with a website that's been around for quite a few years. Jack Pastors is brand new and has a brand new website you make yours look like theirs.
> 
> All of a sudden Jack Astors will be your secretary as everyone and their dog trying to find Jack Pastors gets redirected to their website and telephone numbers. Now if you were paying that secretary, she'd say nice things about you, but Jack Astors is paying her. So she's not going to say nice things about you or your new restaurant, she'll inform them that you are copying them and you're a bit of a scoundrel. Jack Astors will not be amused.
> 
> You will also get phone calls about them as well. Phone calls and inquiries that waste your time.
> 
> Then there's trademark law. As a small start up you don't belong there. It's really expensive and generally best left to well established corporate brands. In my case I had no choice and a hell of a case.
> 
> There are a lot of gray areas in trademark law. The first is the general concept underlying trademarks which is that before a trademark can be given the trademark must be made famous. This is called a "tradename" and is the interim step before the trademark. Otherwise you could pay to trademark the dictionary and own all the words that could potentially be used in advertising.
> If you are awarded a trademark and don't use it or "make it famous" anyone can apply to have it expunged (removed) from the registry of trademarks.
> 
> About 90% of restaurants fail the first year in business. If you do make it past that hurdle and become a successful franchise the last thing you need is a large complex expensive trademark dispute to hang around you like a giant ball and chain.
> 
> Frankly I'd go with an original name at the very least.


Thanks for the input. It's a small independently owned place in a tiny foreign country, with no plans to expand and no name recognition because of it- they will never see brand ID like Jack Astors. Also, to my recollection, copyright laws do not exist in the country in question, so I doubt if there is any trademark etc to worry about.

On to the belief that "90% of restaurants fail in their first year"- this statement is patently false, the true number is actually around 26%. Here's one source refuting that 'statistic'; my own research has backed it up as well.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/restfail.htm


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## indexxx

Mall Guy said:


> In Halifax, there is like five slice joints on one corner . . . "slice corner" . . . is this thread really about ripping-off a pizza slice concept ??? Unless your going to call it pizza pizza pizza, pretty sure you can move on !


It's NOT a pizza slice place- as stated, that was a FICTIONAL example, used for illustrative purposes.


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## indexxx

Mall Guy said:


> Also, what makes you sure that this restaurant (if it is a restaurant) will fly in Canada . . . many, many haven't . . . and some have been backed by some pretty big players . . . Boston Market (McDonald's), Koo Koo Roo Chicken, Fuddruckers, Olive Garden and every indoor kids play-land ever open by someone coming back from Spring break in Florida . . . undertake extensive due diligence, market research and focus groups, and then hire an expert in the field.


There are many reasons I know it will fly:
-it is a universally enjoyed food
-there is an undeniable visual hook to the concept- when you walk by the restaurant you are visually drawn to the product in the window
-value-priced and instantly prepared, but extremely healthy, fresh, delicious, and high-quality
-a great blend of familiar and a touch of exotic
-great success in many markets including the US and some Canadian segments- just not in Vancouver as yet
-as a 'Fast Casual' concept, it is in the fastest-growing segment of the industry
-operating costs are far, far lower than any of the chains you mention, due to a much smaller retail footprint, less staff (no high-wage chefs, no servers, only counter staff/kitchen labour), lower licensing fees as no alcohol is served, low food cost
-high profit margin on the products
-can succeed in a wide variety of locations
-excellent franchising/multiple store prospects
-ability to be as creative as needed with the offerings and tweak as necessary
-I worked for the company for four years in another of their restaurants, and know how consistently busy this concept was with both locals and tourists

The issue with the chain restaurants that try to make inroads is one of competing with existing brands, and filling all those seats- there are only so many casual sit-down dollars to go around. Trying to compete with Earls or Milestones or Cactus Club is a huge mountain to climb; as is getting into the race of trying to outdo every trendy place that is trying to outdo each other. (I currently run the bar/cocktail program in such a place- it's dog eat dog). A big mistake many make is opening a large place, thinking they'll make more money with all those chairs... easier said than done and they end up getting killed on initial outlay, overhead of big rents, huge hydro bills, and massive labour cost to cover the room. The repeat money is in a small, quick turnover, good fast casual concept, a step above quick serves like McD's or Subway which require a huge franchise outlay. My concept can provide a delicious, healthier, unique product faster than Subway for about the same price, for sit down or take away, and has the bonus of having more comfortable, funky, inviting decor. If someone opened this concept in my neighbourhood, I'd be there a couple of times a week.

I have over 25 years experience in the industry and there is zero doubt in my mind about success; I simply need a bit more capital, a partner to share the workload, and to solidify the actual business plan. I hope to be ready within one year, realistically 18 months. But yes, as some suggest, I'll probably change the name.


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## leoc2

Is it chipotle?
https://www.chipotle.com/


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## kcowan

indexxx said:


> But yes, as some suggest, I'll probably change the name.


Also check that some major chain has not trademarked the concept and is just not bothering to pursue the example company that you saw. Also what do you plan to do to protect your name/concept?


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## indexxx

leoc2 said:


> Is it chipotle?
> https://www.chipotle.com/


No, not Chipotle. As per the reasons explained, it is not a 'sit down service' concept. Great franchise and it would likely do well in Vancouver, but I don't have the capital to get involved. It's a very small, independent idea for a fast-casual product.


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## canadianbanks

Business ideas that got big are copied every day. As long as you are not infringing on somebody's copyright/trademarks you may be fine, but if the company you are copying from has deep pockets and decides to go after you (even without having strong case) all bets are off...


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## Sampson

indexxx said:


> but I don't have the capital to get involved.


Then there isn't too much point trying. I don't think anyone has clarified whether this would fly (legally) or not. Even if the foreign corp did not have legal rights to the name/model of the business, they could still take you to court and if you don't have capital, how would you defend yourself even if you are in the right?


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## Rusty O'Toole

If you are not using patented, copywrited or trademarked material there is nothing wrong with "copying" someone else's business. That is how Walmart got started and so did a million other successful businesses. Sam Walton patterned the Walmart name after Kmart and similar stores, he got his start running stores for other chains before he went out on his own, using what he learned from them. But he made sure not to pretend to be what he was not, and went on to develop his own business methods very successfully.

The same goes for White Castle and McDonald's, Coke and Pepsi, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Popeye, and hundreds of other examples.

Go ahead and copy any business just be sure you have your own distinctive name, logo, color scheme etc so there is no confusion between your two companies. If you are any good at business, in a few years you will develop in your own way and your business will be totally different anyway.


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