# Would you consider going Veg 1 Day/Week?



## VJ99 (Apr 24, 2012)

Would you consider going vegetarian one day a week?
How about veg all day except for supper?

Why would you do this?

- lose weight, cut your cholesterol, feel healthier
- save money - veggies and lentils are cheaper than steak and also, being healthier save you time and money
- meat farming produces more greenhouse gases than all motor vehicles combined
- save some animals from a cruel fate - not death (that is unavoidable) but the torture that is factory farming
- get on the right side of history - more folks are going veg and you could be in the vanguard
- find out what you can really do with Romanesco 

Just wondering if you would consider it.


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## SW20 MR2 (Dec 18, 2010)

Heck no. I would barely consider going a meal without meat. I don't care what the benefits of not eating meat are. I like it, and I'll continue to eat it. That being said, people can do whatever they want, so I'm fine if people are vegetarians or want to eat less meat.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

I went 100% vegetarian back in January, after my family doctor wanted to put me on statins to reduce my high cholesterol. She told me I would have to take statins for the rest of my life. I was horrified as I hate pills. I'm only 45.

I have since:
- lost 30 pounds
- dropped my pants size from 36 to 32
*- completely normalized my cholesterol*

I feel much healthier overall.

I haven't touched meat since January. I don't miss it one bit. I occasionally eat a low-fat fish (always wild, never farmed).


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

I still eat meat often just because I live with my parents, and they set the meal plan. But once I'm on my own, I will be going vegetarian for most meals, for all of the reasons specified, except to "get on the right side of history". I don't care about "being in the vanguard". There are some cool fruit in that link. Though I'm sure it's not exactly money-saving if you go to seek out exotic food like that!

I would enjoy a juicy steak from the family farm once in a while though, or roast beef. Or homemade hamburgers. Yum.

I was in Katimavik, and our food budget was tight so we were forced to explore alternative options for protein since meat is expensive. Also because Katimavik is an enviro-conscious program, so we were encouraged to eat food with a smaller footprint. It was a fantastic experience.

Edit, congrats GoldStone! That's great that you've been able to do that.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

I would consider, definetely, two reasons would be health and environment.

We don't eat that much meat, I like good steak and such, but can live without it for days or weeks.

The main obstacle would be cravings and having a vegetarian diet that is actually healthy, possibly one day I will put my mind to it, just not yet.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

We don't do it intentionally, but our family eats vegetarian meals from time to time. I just haven't figured out how to make a dahl using meat, although I bet if the lentils were fired/browned in bacon fat that would be pretty good.

Many of our curries, and other stews just happen to be veg. Not a chance we are leaving meat though.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Within the last ~4 months I've gone to being 99% pescatarian. The 1% is me having a bite of meat here and there when friends and family cook meat or to eat bacon as I have not been able to find a good bacon substitute!! 

Question to the longer term veggers: did you notice any negative changes? I've been very tired recently and I'm wondering if it's the decrease in daylight or the diet change, or both? I've been googling it, but the "big nutritional differences to be aware of" seem to be iron and protein.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Yeah, it doesn't have to be all or nothing, unless you want to be vegan or follow a similarly strict diet. I've been mostly vegetarian for about 30 years; we eat red meat a few times per year, chicken a few times per month, and fish once a week or so; other than that we live on a vegetarian diet. We don't think of ourselves as vegetarians, we just like vegetables and grains, and have never gotten into the habit of eating a lot of meat. Sometimes I do get meat cravings and I pay attention to them because my body's probably telling me something. We sometimes have a hard time getting enough protein because my girlfriend can no longer digest beans, which cuts out one of the main protein sources in a vegetarian diet. She also can't drink milk (but can digest yogurt and cheese, so we have that on hand).


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Sure. We eat vegetarian meals for most meals, but we're not vegetarian. My parents are vegetarian.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I already do this. I find the idea of going meatless for one day a week kind of funny. As much as I like meat - eating meat every single day is not a priority. I like good food, prepared well and it doesn't matter if meat is involved.

I wouldn't be pushing the health aspects of vegetarianism - I know quite a few who are pretty overweight. It also isn't "natural". Were many of the cavemen vegetarians?

Nice work Goldstone!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I have quite a few vegetarian recipes in my repertoire. I see the merits in eating less meat from an environmental perspective, cost, to some extent health and animal welfare. I don't have any ethical quandaries with eating meat in general, but I do agree that animal welfare standards allowed in factory farming are appalling. I try to eat more environmentally efficient meats, too--pretty much anything but beef (though I do enjoy it).


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

I've always been vegetarian. We don't eat any meat and the only animal products we consume are dairy and eggs. I don't think getting enough proteins or iron is ever a challenge provided you consume enough milk, yogurt, eggs, lentils etc. An adult male needs only about 60 gms of proteins per day. 2 cups of lentils alone can provide 1/2 the proteins and iron required. 

I went around the kitchen noting down protein content.
1 cup milk - 9 gm
1/2 cup yogurt - 5 gm
1/2 cup cottage cheese - 15 gm
1 cup red kidney beans - 15 gm
1 slice Cheddar cheese - 6 gm
1 large egg - 6 gm

The only time any of us needed supplements was when our kids were little babies and the doctor wasn't sure they were getting enough iron, so he prescribed some.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Here is another question for you, would you consider not eating any wild animals/fish, especially once that are grossly overfished like tuna?

Why?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Homerhomer said:


> Here is another question for you, would you consider not eating any wild animals/fish, especially once that are grossly overfished like tuna?


I think you're asking two questions here. It's one thing to avoid wild stocks that are not being managed sustainably, such as tuna and Atlantic cod, and another to say that you won't eat wild animals and fish period. Wild Pacific salmon are currently harvested sustainably, and they get the seal of approval from the sustainable fishery watchdog groups (Monterey Aquarium, Marine Stewardship Council, etc.). Furthermore, if you care about animal welfare and suffering, you might conclude that killing and eating wild animals is more ethically justified than eating those raised on industrial farms. There are people who advocate hunting your own game as the most environmentally responsible and ethically justifiable way to eat meat if you want to eat meat. I don't know how I feel about it, I can see arguments on both sides.

I certainly try to avoid industrially raised meat. There's an expression here in Québec: "acheter, c'est voter." To buy is to vote. If you buy supermarket beef and chicken you're casting a vote for factory farms. I prefer to cast my vote elsewhere. But I also recognize that we might not be able to feed the world using small-scale humane farming methods. I just prefer not to participate in it myself, but it won't work if everyone demands locally grown meat from animals that aren't caged.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Would surviving on Timbits, coffee, PJ bagels, coke, potato chips and candies a day considered going vegetarian for the day? Note, I am not a meat-lover but I am a lover of sweet-stuffs! (Yeah, my dentist loves me too). :biggrin:


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## swoop_ds (Mar 2, 2010)

Here is an interesting health related link that links to many studies:
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/diet_stud.htm

But it's on a veggy site so may be biased.

I eat no more than about one meal of meat a week (give or take). If it wasn't such a chore, I'd love to be completely vegan, not to mention my wife does the majority of the cooking and she'd have to be on board.

As for the protein issue, it's not an issue. You would have to be TRYING to not eat enough protein, and even then you'd be hard pressed. You would have to eat nothing but candy and jelly and maybe some disgusting processed foods. Everything, more or less, has protein in it. The main concern is iron and possibly zinc. A good multivitamin and a varied diet will get rid of that issue.

I've been eating like this for a couple years now and see no negative aspects other than having to explain to farmers why I don't eat meat, which somehow makes me anti-canadian to the farmers... If we didn't waste the majority of our crops feeding animals, we would have a nearly endless food supply.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Brad, I have asked an open question if you will, which could be approached from various angles.

I have no big issue with hunting if done in a sustainable way, I understand the way stock animals are raised is inhumane, at the same time realize that there may not be enough free range, natural food for everyone (although that is also up for debate) , I am concerned with overfishing killing the oceans, I am happy with ban of shark fin soup, I am concerned with the health effect mercury may have on animals and humans alike, hope whaling, hunting for horns, killing tigers will stop.......

Just wanted to know what others think ;-)

at the same time appoligize for being off topic, slightly though since original question is related to health and environment.


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## Guigz (Oct 28, 2010)

The jury is still out on wether a vegetarian diet provides any (significant) benefits as opposed to a balanced diet. I would guess that some, if not all, of the purported benefits of vegetarism are more likely related to the restriction of caloric intake that often accompanies vegetarism as opposed to not eating animal proteins and fats.

I would not consider stopping eating meat as a means of saving money since I really like it and it can be had for pretty cheap (i.e., .99$/pound). 

@Homer I understand your concerns about overfishing, you should look up Integrated Multi-Trophic Aquacultures for an interesting foray into sea permaculture and ecological services.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sustainable seafood is becoming pretty mainstream. At least one major Canadian food retailer has committed to only selling sustainably sourced (either farmed or from sustainable wild fisheries) seafood over the next few years. This includes the seafood content of any processed food.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Does eating all this spam online count against me? I won't go vegetarian long term. A meal, a day, a few days without meat is no biggie and I do it all the time.

The "greenhouse gas" thing is a bit of a red herring. Most of the gasses come from clearing the land (which is bad) and the animals themselves (Including their manure). Living things give off greenhouse gas, no way around that.
Further to that point : "The developed world could cut back hugely on its meat consumption, but those gains would be largely swallowed up — sorry — by the developing world, which isn't likely to give up its newly acquired taste for cheeseburgers and pork." - Time.com.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Thanks for starting this thread Vikash, I will definitely consider attempting a step like this one day a week, for starters at least.
There's a lot of good reasons to consume less meat.
Living in a rural area I can tell you that being willing to pay a little more for humanely grown meat does and will make a difference.

I do not often buy eggs but when I do I buy the brown ones because they come from a breed that is more content in it's environment, the caged white leghorns that lay the white eggs are living in an environment totally unsuited to the breed's temperament, I would say it's not inaccurate to call it torture. On a purely humane level the optimal evironment would be free range, maybe even with a hundred acre farm to explore, but ofc the last bit is not at all practical in terms of feeding the populace.

I like a high potein diet and consume way too much meat but I know a retired teacher, now hobby farmer that sells what he calls naturally organic food, because jumping through the hoops to become certified organic is not practical for him, but the prices are good and the animals are treated well.

Not a big fan of soy, but I think I will try to start going one day a week w/o meat, there's lots of other protein sources.

Barwelle, very cool that you went through Katimavik, I did consider doing that in my youth, and wonder how my life might have gone differently had I gone down that road, though I did see a lot of our beautiful country between my stint in the armed forces and all the other jobs I did choose in the following years. 
I seriously hope Katimavik survives the Harper gov't's attempt to scrap it.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> The "greenhouse gas" thing is a bit of a red herring. Most of the gasses come from clearing the land (which is bad) and the animals themselves (Including their manure). Living things give off greenhouse gas, no way around that.


I think the point is that there would be fewer cattle and other livestock giving off methane if there were less demand for meat. But it's worth considering that methane is a fuel source and many farms are using methane from manure for cooking (an estimated two million households in India do this), as well as to provide electricity (and heat in colder countries). There are dairy farms in Vermont that generate most of their own electricity and heat from biogas.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Young&Ambitious said:


> Question to the longer term veggers: did you notice any negative changes? I've been very tired recently and I'm wondering if it's the decrease in daylight or the diet change, or both? I've been googling it, but the "big nutritional differences to be aware of" seem to be iron and protein.


Many (most?) vegetarians have Vitamin B12 deficiency. B12 comes mostly from animal sources. B12 deficiency can be the cause of your tiredness.

Sluggish? Confused? Vitamin B12 May Be Low

Your doctor can easily check your level of B12 with a routine blood test.

I take vitamin B12 a few times a week, when I don't forget.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

brad said:


> I think the point is that there would be fewer cattle and other livestock giving off methane if there were less demand for meat. But it's worth considering that methane is a fuel source and many farms are using methane from manure for cooking (an estimated two million households in India do this), as well as to provide electricity (and heat in colder countries). There are dairy farms in Vermont that generate most of their own electricity and heat from biogas.


I get that, but it's an awkward argument. A similar reduction could be made if we stopped keeping pets, or children for that matter.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> I get that, but it's an awkward argument. The similar reduction could be made if we stopped keeping pets, or children for that matter.


Not really, because ruminant animals (cattle, buffalo, sheep, goats, camels) produce far more methane per unit of body weight than other animals due to the way they digest food. One cow emits 80-110 kgs of methane per year. In the United States alone, cattle emit about 5.5 million metric tons of methane per year. The amount of methane emitted by household pets is a tiny fraction of that amount.


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## bayview (Nov 6, 2011)

Ya I can go meat free for a couple days or a week. I dont take red meat & most poultry, except chicken. Nothing to do with religious or environment reasons - I just dont enjoy them and good tasting food is important to me even simply done. 

My personal challenge is how to eat as close as possible to 100% GMO free. I haven't embark on this yet partly due to costs and more importantly the limited range of organic choices for the type of food/cuisine that I enjoy. 

@Homer: I love fish. I will not stop eating them unless they are banned. However, if I'm convinced some particular species are heading towards extinction soon, I will opt for another fish.


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## swoop_ds (Mar 2, 2010)

This is also a bias link. . . BUT . . . http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/meat-and-environment.aspx


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

brad said:


> Not really, because ruminant animals (cattle, buffalo, sheep, goats, camels) produce far more methane per unit of body weight than other animals due to the way they digest food. One cow emits 80-110 kgs of methane per year. In the United States alone, cattle emit about 5.5 million metric tons of methane per year. The amount of methane emitted by household pets is a tiny fraction of that amount.


Well I know my family produces alot more methane than the average family when there are too many beans, or garlic consumed. That's got to count for something.

However, this being said, I don't see that we would ever go vegetarian, as both my husband and oldest consider themselves meatarians. Also, i have reduce alot of carbs such as grains and pasta, so have a high protein diet. 

We are trying to make our meals much higher in the veggies, and lower in the meat servings, with an occasional vegetarian meal. We aim about once every 2-3 weeks to be completely meat free for the day. Right now, with picky little ones and a picky spouse, I am happy they are eating something healthy, and won't change that.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

brad said:


> Not really, because ruminant animals (cattle, buffalo, sheep, goats, camels) produce far more methane per unit of body weight than other animals due to the way they digest food. One cow emits 80-110 kgs of methane per year. In the United States alone, cattle emit about 5.5 million metric tons of methane per year. The amount of methane emitted by household pets is a tiny fraction of that amount.


Well I know my family produces alot more methane than the average family when there are too many beans, or garlic consumed. That's got to count for something.

However, this being said, I don't see that we would ever go vegetarian, as both my husband and oldest consider themselves meatarians. Also, i have reduce alot of carbs such as grains and pasta, so have a high protein diet. 

We are trying to make our meals much higher in the veggies, and lower in the meat servings, with an occasional vegetarian meal. We aim about once every 2-3 weeks to be completely meat free for the day. Right now, with picky little ones and a picky spouse, I am happy they are eating something healthy, and won't change that.


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## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

I don't eat red meat, and usually have either fish or chicken 4 or 5 days a week with one meal and take a multivitamin. Other than potatoes and rice almost everything else I eat is raw(fruit, veggies, nuts and seeds). I try to buy unsalted products if possible, and avoid anything with sugar if I can. I used to eat all the usual fast foods and processed meals and I had heartburn all the time(consuming dozens of tums/rolaids daily to combat it) and was pale, overweight and out of breath most of the time. That was five years ago, now I feel great and look much better(even my former drivers license picture shocks people, and that was just my face!). I also exercise for about an hour at least 4 days a week and work in a physical job, which is much easier and more enjoyable now. All of these changes also saves me a lot of money and I haven't needed to reach for the tums for a couple of years now. I also don't panic whenever another e-coli meat scare makes the news.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I like meat, I generally have a small portion at every meal.
One con is the food safety aspect, it's more likely to get e-coli from vegetables than meat.

I know people who went vegetarian-ish mostly to avoid meat and they saw increases in energy levels mood etc, but I think they had a sensitivity (low level allergy) to meat.

It was also mentioned it is generally difficult to get a good nutritionally balanced vegetarian diet, throwing a bit of meat in there makes it easier.
As far as cost, a 3-4oz meat portion can be very cheap.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

swoop_ds said:


> This is also a bias link. . . BUT . . . http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/meat-and-environment.aspx


PETA are crazy stupid evil.


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## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

We've been having one or two meatless dishes each week. I was apprehensive at first, but we've made some tasty dishes like greek orzo pasta, baked quinoa casserole, spinach fettucini alfredo and lemon cream pasta. It's not too bad.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> Many (most?) vegetarians have Vitamin B12 deficiency. B12 comes mostly from animal sources. B12 deficiency can be the cause of your tiredness.
> 
> Sluggish? Confused? Vitamin B12 May Be Low
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip GoldStone! That reminded me of a conversation with a nutritionist student who also mentioned that... I'll have to see how my multivitamin shapes up :chuncky:


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## VJ99 (Apr 24, 2012)

What a wonderful discussion. It is clear that even people who are firm carnivores have thought about the issues. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. Some really inspiring stories in there eg. Jim9guitars, Goldstone, mrPPincer and of course, Beaver101's all-Timmies, all-the-time diet.

A few consistent themes: 
- people who did go veg reported being healthier and feeling better.
- many people have cut back on their meat consumption already for various reasons
- some people continue to accept the fallacy that because our Neanderthal ancestors ate mainly meat we should too, 
..........ignoring that Neanderthals lived in Europe during an Ice Age, and; 
..........ignoring that meat was a small part of most people's diets until the last few decades, and;
..........no human society has eaten as much meat or has been as obese as ours (think of our grandparents)
- many people would go veg but they don't know how or are afraid of not getting a balanced diet
..........though as a life-long veg, I can say the benefits of veg far outweigh any minor risks (eg. low iron)

In case you are interested, here's a video of ex-Citibank executive, Philip Wollen arguing the case for going veg. 
And I promise, there are no pictures of factory-farming brutality in it - just one passionate crusader.


Thanks everyone, 
vj


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

archerETF said:


> ..........ignoring that meat was a small part of most people's diets until the last few decades, and;[/FONT][/COLOR]
> ..........no human society has eaten as much meat or has been as obese as ours (think of our grandparents)




Monkeys rarely eat meat, and since we evolved from them one can argue that mostly vegetarian diet should be the staple of what we eat.

IMO our obesity is only partially due to what and how much we consume, and in bigger part because of our lifestyle.

Let's only imagine if everyone in India and China was able to eat the same amounts of food as we consume in North America, the planet would be dead already, there wouldn't be anything left in the oceans, and if we apply it to our overall consumption the resources would have been exhausted as well ;-)

edit: not what I wanted to quote from Archer's post, but there are so many codes and symbols (fonts, colors, styles) I got lost ;-)


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Homerhomer said:


> Monkeys rarely eat meat, and since we evolved from them one can argue that mostly vegetarian diet should be the staple of what we eat.


There is a lot of fallacy to this.

First, we did not evolve from monkeys. We share a common ancestor with modern apes, but through divergent streams have evolved to where we are now.

Second, part of the adaptation required to become what we are has obviously resulted in the introduction of meat in to our common ancestors' diet.

Third, even if your statement were accurate, all of our ancestors (even before ape), probably were consuming phytoplankton, does that mean we should all eat that and only that?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Obesity does have many causes, and people can lose weight on high-protein/low carb diets, high-carb/low fat diets, Paleo diets, and just about any other diet you can imagine. One doctor famously lost a lot of weight on a diet consisting entirely of Hostess Twinkies. And people can lose weight by becoming more active, just as they can gain weight by becoming less active. I think it's clear that there's no single cause of obesity but rather a spectrum of causes, and that different people become obese for different reasons. 

I think one of the reasons we eat more meat today is because meat is more available and affordable. In some cultures (and in our own not-so-distant past) meat is a relative luxury that you indulge in on special occasions. 

Looking back to our evolutionary past to learn what we were "designed" to eat or not eat is not a super-fruitful endeavour, because humans are opportunistic omnivores. If there were a McDonald's on every streetcorner 20,000 years ago you can bet that our ancestors would have been eating Big Macs. We eat whatever's readily available and easily accessible. If you're a hunter-gatherer, it takes more effort to hunt down and kill a big mammal than it does to grab some bannanas from a tree or glean some nuts from the ground. By making meat, high-sugar sodas, and junk food convenient and affordable, and available everywhere, we're just making it a lot easier for everyone to eat too much of everything, and too much of things that may not be good for us.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Sampson said:


> Third, even if your statement were accurate, all of our ancestors (even before ape), probably were consuming phytoplankton, does that mean we should all eat that and only that?


Point being, just because something was customary in the distant and not so distant past doesn't mean it should continue in the future ( be it wild game, packaged bacon or plankton ;-)


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

I eat, every day, 2 eggs and 2 strips of bacon, and have done so for the last 10 years. My blood work, including my cholesterol is 'perfect' according to my Doc. My weight needs to come down, but since I am not too mobile, I get little exercise. Remember, hunter gatherers didn't just chase buffalo.... they hunted small game. Also, they didn't waste time slicing up rib-eye steaks.... they went straight for the organ meats, liver, brains, etc. These were loaded with saturated fat. The knock against sat fat is completely wrong IMHO.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

On the topic of human evolution, we evolved on the savanna, a habitat closest to the one baboons live in (among primates). Unsurprisingly, baboons are also omnivores that eat significantly more meat than tree-dwelling primates.

Humans ate significant amounts of meat before civilization emerged. It can be seen from the archeological record, with many artifacts created from animal bones, teeth, etc. and tools associated with killing and butchering animals (hand axes, etc.).


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## yllainehudges (Feb 9, 2012)

It's okay for me and I don't find it bad at all, instead, that is considered healthy. I'm a meat person and because of that I always feel heavy and cannot run and walk that long. I read in some websites that if you are a person who eats more veggies and fish you are likely to feel lighter.


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## PharmD (Dec 21, 2011)

I am apparently the strange one in this discussion who has actually increased the amount of meat I eat due to the fact that I have a hard time maintaining my weight. I have throughout my life been borderline underweight according to BMI and have found that more meat and higher fat content dairy has helped keep me in the normal range as well as regular exercise. Personally, I dont love meat and left to my own whims would probably eat it once every couple days and used to eat like that. I can't say that I feel noticeably different since changing my diet so I can't really verify what some others have said. The most important thing I think is to eat a balanced diet and for most people, myself included, to eat more vegetables.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Humans ate significant amounts of meat before civilization emerged. It can be seen from the archeological record, with many artifacts created from animal bones, teeth, etc. and tools associated with killing and butchering animals (hand axes, etc.).



I believe it's also been shown that eating (cooked) meat was an ESSENTIAL step towards early humans evolving higher brain functions.

I have a hard to accepting there won't be some essential vitamin, mineral or protein that the body misses out on by completely eliminating meat. Although I haven't done the research specifically on that topic.

Also, I don't know why people keep saying meat is expensive. Sure, MOST meat is expensive. But there is invariably some cut of meat every week that is less than $2/lb at the grocers. And every month or two even premium meats get discounted down to $3-4/lb where you can stock up.


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## spirit (May 9, 2009)

We cut down on meat about 20 years ago but increased our dairy consumption. Think cheese omletes with cottage cheese and fried pototoes etc. Then my son and DIL turned vegetarian, and are now vegan. They made us watch a movie with them called Forks over Knives that made us think about our eating habits. We made a decision to cut not eliminate dairy from our diets since we were not big consumers of meat.
It has truly made a difference in how I feel. I used to have plantar faciaitis and my lower consumption of diary has help with the inflammation. I am not just using this as a guide line. I remember years ago my wonderful family doctor asked me to lower my consumption of dairy and I was horrified. Cheese and dairy products were a large part of our lifestyle....think lasagna, grilled cheese sandwiches, cheese on basically anything. I thought it would be very difficult to give up and it was. But we have really cut down. Oh, how can I forget pizza!!!!!! But the lower dairy consumption has made a difference in how we are feeling. Just my 2 cents.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

You can make pizza with no cheese! Or limited cheese. Signed, a lactose intolerant person.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Yeah, my favourite pizza currently is topped with potato slices (you steam or boil them first to cook, then slice thin and put on top of the pizza dough) and either chopped garlic scapes or pesto. If garlic scapes, sprinkle with some chopped rosemary or oregano and pine nuts. Drizzle with a little olive oil, sprinkle with salt and pepper. To die for, no cheese necessary although you can grate a smidgen of Parmesan on top.


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## Koala (Jan 27, 2012)

I wouldn't. I've never been vegetarian, but my doctor has told me to eat more meat, due to a vitamin deficiency. Even with supplementation, I notice my energy dropping if I've gone without meat for a few days. I do frequently eat vegetarian lunches though, and occasionally it happens at dinner as well, but I wouldn't purposely plan to do it once a week.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

For the record, today inspired by this thread I go meatless Saturdays and seafood Fridays, see how it goes.

btw, a previous discussion we've had on these forums, started by KaeJS, had me reading some new books on low carb dieting and subsequently going more strictly low carb until I'd lost 23 pounds of excess weight, didn't take long at all either.
I found that a side effect of going low carb was a significant increase in vegetable and fresh fruit intake, which couldn't be a bad thing either.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I've changed my diet about a year ago to Vegan + occasional seafood due to health concerns. On special occasions, like Christmas I will have a bit of skinless turkey. I was surprised not to miss red meat near as much as I thought I would, as I used to love roasts and burgers. What I miss most is cheese. I eat vegan cheese in tortillas which adds a bit of cheese flavor. I eat lots of cruciferous vegetables, soy, lots of fruit (especially dark fruit like blueberries) and nuts. I've cut most needless sugar out of my diet but do have a square of dark chocolate (80%) as a nightly treat. Thankfully red wine, coffee and beer are all okay in moderation. Green tea is also good. To make vegetarianism easier it is helpful to incorporate lots of spices and dishes from other cultures - spices, curries, Mexican food, etc. Dishes like Brad's Tunisian Stew are a good example. 

Weight loss was not a main goal but I've lost 20 pounds without feeling like I'm cutting portions.


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## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

peterk said:


> I believe it's also been shown that eating (cooked) meat was an ESSENTIAL step towards early humans evolving higher brain functions.
> 
> I have a hard to accepting there won't be some essential vitamin, mineral or protein that the body misses out on by completely eliminating meat. Although I haven't done the research specifically on that topic.
> 
> Also, I don't know why people keep saying meat is expensive. Sure, MOST meat is expensive. But there is invariably some cut of meat every week that is less than $2/lb at the grocers. And every month or two even premium meats get discounted down to $3-4/lb where you can stock up.



I have read several studies citing human meat consumption as a catalyst to brain development when arguing with animal rights fanatics. I'm also pretty sure there proteins that are essential that are found only in select vegetables/plants that are readily available in most meats, thats why a strict vegan diet can be dangerous to anyone who hasn't done the research or consulted a nutritionist or doctor. 

Also to save money on meats, ever considered wild game? Most are also better for your health. Moose for example can replace beef in a lot of recipes and doesn't contain nearly the fat. Plus, you can skip the whole growth hormone marinade pumped into these things nowadays.


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## Teen Trader (Sep 1, 2009)

I'd like to clear some things up here. 

I've been a vegetarian for just over a year (I'm eighteen, by the way). I grew up on a farm that raises beef cattle -- not that many, but enough to be able to sell meat to our family and friends every year (and supply ourselves). Until I was thirteen, I didn't know that we ate our own cows. I don't blame my parents that much for not telling me, but immediately upon finding out I stopped eating our beef (eating store bought instead). I also stopped eating fast food at this point. Our cows are treated just about as well as they possibly could be. There are just a few of them, they're fed hay, grain and all the grass they can eat, and they're never given antibiotics (unless they're sick). We have them for around a year before they're slaughtered and processed. If people are going to eat meat, I can't think of a better source than cows like those. 

Anyways, on to my main point. I've always been very fond of animals. I tried going vegetarian a few times when I was a child (6-10 years old) but I didn't know anything about it, and I thought that it would mean I would have to eat salad for every meal. As such, I never lasted very long. In high school I was exposed to material regarding animal cruelty, factory farming and the environmental effects of it (see Earthlings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19eBAfUFK3E). When my dog (who I'd had for almost as long as I could remember) died, I started to question why I was so crushed by her death, yet unphased by the hundreds of animals that died or would die so that I could eat them -- out of convenience and pleasure -- during my lifetime. I started to wonder if I could kill an animal myself so that I could eat it. When I realized that I couldn't, I decided that I had no right to pretend that animals didn't suffer so that I could have a steak. So, I became a vegetarian. 

Methane production isn't the only environmental effect of large-scale meat production -- for every pound of meat that's produced, it takes 10 pounds of grain. So that's 9 pounds of grain essentially going to waste, not to mention the huge amounts of: land, water, chemicals and waste associated with the production of both the grain and the animal(s). While you, as an individual, becoming a vegetarian may not have that much of an impact, it still is one less person contributing to environmental decay. Going vegetarian is the equivalent to taking half a car off the roads (http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...ual-to-half-of-all-britains-cars-6423173.html). 

From a health perspective, there really isn't definite proof that vegetarianism prevents cancer or other things like that. There are many health benefits, though, which you can read about here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Health_benefits_and_concerns People often cite nutrient deficiencies, or trouble gaining weight as reasons for not going vegetarian (or eating less meat). While it's true that some vegetarians (particularly vegans) don't get enough protein, vitamin B12 or iron, the vast majority do. As long as you eat a reasonably varied and healthy diet (lentils, tofu or soy products, the occasional salad, etc.) you won't have any problems. I've been slightly underweight my entire life, despite at one point (for a period of around 6 months) eating around 4000 calories per day, including tons of meat. Since going vegetarian, I've actually gained two pounds. Not to say I wouldn't have gained weight eating meat, but I certainly didn't lose weight. Calories are calories, and protein is found in lots of vegetarian sources. 

My Geography Professor, though an omnivore, says that he has "no illusions that eating meat is ethical". That, from my perspective, is the one conclusion that everyone should reach. I ate meat for seventeen years, I'm not going to berate anyone for continuing to do so. It is not, however, an ethical thing to do, as some people like to believe. Some of the greatest minds in history: Einstein, Da Vinci, Pythagoras, Plato, etc. were vegetarians, primarily because they realized that it was, in no way, ethical. I think, and hope, that if people realize that what they're doing isn't ethical -- that meat doesn't grow on trees -- they may start to put a bit more thought into what they eat, where it comes from and how it was 'made'.

Edit: I'd like to point out that after going vegetarian, I didn't start 'feeling healthier', or anything of the sort. I also didn't feel worth. If you're accustomed to eating lots of fast food, maybe you would notice a difference, but vegetarianism isn't some sort of miracle-cure. Also, if any of you are curious, I didn't at all miss meat. The only times it's an inconvenience is when I'm out to dinner with friends or family and the vegetarian options are limited, but that's fairly rare. There are lots of meat substitutes out there (check out the brand 'Yves') if you have a craving for the taste of meat. I use 'veggie ground round', which is essentially vegetarian ground beef, in spaghetti/lasagna/casseroles, and I genuinely can't tell the difference between it and beef.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I've edited your post 


Teen Trader said:


> So that's 9 pounds of grain essentially going to waste, not to mention the huge amounts of: land, water, chemicals and waste associated with the production of both the grain and the animal(s).
> 
> My Geography Professor, though an omnivore, says that he has "no illusions that eating meat is ethical".
> 
> ...


I dispute much of what you claim, that 9lbs isn't going to waste, it's going to make meat.
Take for example corn vs beef. Beef has 10x the protein, you'd have to eat 10x as much corn anyway.
I like meat more than some of the feedstock grains.
http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2926
http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3853

What qualifies a Geography prof on ethics? Did he minor in philosophy? I'm under no illusion that, in general, any particular diet is ethically superior to others.
In my corn/beef example there isn't even a very strong efficiency arguement to be made.

Next time you make your list of dead, white, male, vegetarians, of historical importance add Hitler to the list.

Now for ethics, do you live in a house? Did you disturb the natural environment to build your shelter, provide food and other necessities? Do your recreational activities further displace animals and cause environmental degradation?
Of course they do.

One could argue, by your logic, your larger than necessary environmental footprint isn't ethical either, and I'd bet your lifestyle does more damage than the incremental impact of my meat consumption.


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## Teen Trader (Sep 1, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I dispute much of what you claim, that 9lbs isn't going to waste, it's going to make meat.
> Take for example corn vs beef. Beef has 10x the protein, you'd have to eat 10x as much corn anyway.
> I like meat more than some of the feedstock grains.
> http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2926
> ...


I thought it was obvious that I wasn't suggesting you to eat 10 lbs of grains for every one lb of meat you stop eating, sorry about not making that clear. The land and resources used to grow that corn/grain could instead be used to grow other, protein-rich crops (such as lentils). 

I don't know if my geography prof majored in philosophy. He was speaking from his own perspective, and I agreed with him -- I would have agreed with him even if I wasn't a vegetarian. The idea that something should die so that you can eat something you like the taste of (not so that you can survive) is not ethical. I don't think many people would claim it is. 

Whether Hitler was a vegetarian or not is disputed. Read this: http://www.snopes.com/glurge/twoquestions.asp or if you don't want to, I'll summarize it for you. It points out that Hitler ate mostly vegetarian foods in the latter part of his life, but for health reasons, not ethical. 

I don't claim to be an entirely ethical person -- I'm not perfect. I don't think anyone is perfect. I do what I can to have a small impact on the environment: I walk almost everywhere, the house where I lived before school is 80 years old and small, and I try to buy organic/sustainable clothing/food/everything whenever I can. I'd like to point out again that I'm not trying to be judgemental of you or anyone else, I just want to correct some of the misconceptions people have about vegetarianism.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Teen Trader said:


> I thought it was obvious that I wasn't suggesting you to eat 10 lbs of grains for every one lb of meat you stop eating, sorry about not making that clear. The land and resources used to grow that corn/grain could instead be used to grow other, protein-rich crops (such as lentils).
> 
> I don't know if my geography prof majored in philosophy. He was speaking from his own perspective, and I agreed with him -- I would have agreed with him even if I wasn't a vegetarian. The idea that something should die so that you can eat something you like the taste of (not so that you can survive) is not ethical. I don't think many people would claim it is.
> 
> ...


My point is that the 10:1 grain/meat arguement isn't completely valid. Cows don't eat lentils, but they do eat corn. I would think that lentils and corn have different growing requirements and different environmental impacts, whereas the corn I eat and cows eat, while different, are much more similar.

I misunderstood your reference to a professor, often people refer to professors as an expert witness, I was pointing out that geography prof while an expert in his field, isn't likely to be an expert in ethics. I don't see an ethical problem with eating formerly living food. Just to be pedantic you don't either, unless you want to argue that plants are not a "living thing". BTW as much as PETA complains I swat mosquitos and flys, and use mousetraps. 

There is arguement on why Hitler was a vegetarian. I do know people who became vegetarians for health reasons, then got on the "ethical" bandwagon. Also remember many vegetarians don't consider fish meat, and some consider animal products such as milk, eggs, leather etc okay too.

Interesting I do claim to be a very moral and ethical person, but I also don't claim to be perfect. I think environmental impact is one aspect among many to consider. 

As for judgement you do claim that it is not ethical to eat things, and that most people would agree with you is a pretty harsh judgement. Using such completely made up stats isn't ethical in a debate, or as a student, it's a good way to fail a paper. The truth is a minority of the world is actually vegetarians, generally only a few percent, except in countries where they can't afford food. Clearly, as evidenced by their actions, the vast majority are okay with killing animals to eat them.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

One more thought, a bit out there but why not.
I think eating meat of obtained through hunting is MORE ethical in many cases.

The animal is there and there is no agricultural environment. 
The mortality rate of some animals (deer, rabbit, game birds etc) through the winter is very high due to lack of food etc.

The animal is most likely going to starve to death in the cold, and the meat wasted. 
By hunting you provide a quicker and more humane death and don't waste the meat. This also offsets a certain level of agricultural impact.


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## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> One more thought, a bit out there but why not.
> I think eating meat of obtained through hunting is MORE ethical in many cases.
> 
> The animal is there and there is no agricultural environment.
> ...


It definitely is. The animal had a chance to live a large portion of its life in a free environment. Also, as you said in the case of booming populations and poor environmental conditions they are harvested and utilized for our benefit and also the benefit of their own population.

My family has been hunting and consuming the most abundant wild animal resource the country has ever had for hundreds of years. Harp seals.


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## VJ99 (Apr 24, 2012)

Dear Teen Trader, 

Thank you for your deeply thoughtful post. 
Unlike most of us city-slickers/arm-chair philosophers, you've actually spent your life living amongst farm animals. 
And you've thought about the implications and impact of your choices on others, including animals. 
That kind of empathy is truly rare. 

One interesting thing you mention that I've heard from many others is that it is often children who are most disturbed by the thought of eating animals. 

Could it be that people have an innate loathing of hurting and killing other sentient beings? That our natural instinct is to help others? That's why kids will care for a bird that's fallen from its nest. That's why most of us shudder if we witness an act of cruelty.

Could it be this natural instinct is eroded as we age and experience more violent situations until eventually, we accept and, at extremes, even revel in, cruelty and violence? Just a thought.

I suspect if people had to personally slaughter a cow for their meat, there would be many more vegetarians.


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## Lephturn (Aug 31, 2009)

VJ99 said:


> I suspect if people had to personally slaughter a cow for their meat, there would be many more vegetarians.


Of course, if they have never grown up in that environment it would be shocking. For those that grew up hunting and eating wild game, fishing, and growing food it would not be a shock. Most people I know who grew up in an environment like that are omnivores.

@Woody - yes I wish this food source was socially acceptable since it is so abundant.


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## Feruk (Aug 15, 2012)

I'd never even consider vegetarianism, but we do something different. We intermittently fast every week; usually Tuesdays. Our version means is we eat a full dinner Monday night, then eat nothing at all until dinner on Tuesday. You can Google "intermittent fasting" and see all the health benefits associated with it but the basic idea is it gives your body time to process all the crap you've had that week and takes you out of "overdrive" mode. For us, we've found we're significantly less hungry for the rest of the week, leading to smaller portions, we've got more energy, and have lost a little bit of weight. I'd highly recommend this approach to trying some gross vegetarian diet.


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## Hawkdog (Oct 26, 2012)

We generally have at least one night a week without meat, just to change it up, nothing to do with being vegetarian. We either have bean burritos or just french bread with melted brie and roast garlic.
I grew up on a ranch, large one in fact. I prefer not to buy beef that was raised in a feedlot but occasionally we break down and buy a couple Costco tenderloin steaks - yum.
Mostly we eat moose deer or elk. 
I go over to Haida Gwaii once a year to hunt black tail deer, the deer are introduced and have no predators so they are overpopulated (and tasty).


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Feruk said:


> ... some gross vegetarian diet.


Why that was a very ignorant comment. And my initial impression of you has been set. 

Hint: it's a poor one.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Young&Ambitious said:


> Why that was a very ignorant comment. And my initial impression of you has been set.
> 
> Hint: it's a poor one.


Vegetarians call meat diets nasty all the time and nobody makes a big deal out of it, why did this comment upset you so much to evoke such strong reaction, and why did you only pay attention to only this part of his post and not other aspects that actually may be useful to others?


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> Vegetarians call meat diets nasty all the time and nobody makes a big deal out of it, why did this comment upset you so much to evoke such strong reaction, and why did you only pay attention to only this part of his post and not other aspects that actually may be useful to others?


People call all sorts of things well all sorts of names such as this poster a vegetarian diet a gross one. The poster is obviously not informed on the topic and likely equates a vegetarian diet to rabbit food when the reality is far from it. I picked out the ignorance and thought I would point it out as the opinion is unfounded, as I'm sure many others would agree. I welcome the OP to explain why a vegetarian diet is a gross one, as unless he/she eats 100% meat, he/she is likely eating some ratio of a "vegetarian" diet. Oops sorry, gross vegetarian diet :02.47-tranquillity:


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## Teen Trader (Sep 1, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> My point is that the 10:1 grain/meat arguement isn't completely valid. Cows don't eat lentils, but they do eat corn. I would think that lentils and corn have different growing requirements and different environmental impacts, whereas the corn I eat and cows eat, while different, are much more similar.
> 
> I misunderstood your reference to a professor, often people refer to professors as an expert witness, I was pointing out that geography prof while an expert in his field, isn't likely to be an expert in ethics. I don't see an ethical problem with eating formerly living food. Just to be pedantic you don't either, unless you want to argue that plants are not a "living thing". BTW as much as PETA complains I swat mosquitos and flys, and use mousetraps.
> 
> ...


The 10:1 argument is mostly used in regard to total energy consumption (even if it isn't 10:1 if you change corn production to lentils, feeding people with lentils is still far more energy efficient than feeding them meat). Additionally, for people who don't have much of anything to eat, corn is better than nothing (even if it's not protein rich). If you could feed 10 people who don't have any/much food with the same amount of corn that it would take to feed one person meat, I'd say that's better. You do make a good point, though. 

I should have explained the quoting of my prof better, sorry about that. He's well versed in sustainability, the environment, food production and animal welfare, so I think he's coming from a reasonable position to make a conclusion. But, again, he isn't an expert in the field of ethics, so I'm more bringing in his position than asserting that it's fact. The difference between plants and animals is considerable -- I don't think many would disagree with that. Most vegetarians don't attempt to do 'no' harm, only 'less' harm. Also, most vegetarians don't agree with much of what PETA says. I realize that they're valuable in regard to raising awareness of animal-rights issues in the general public, but they're far too extreme in most peoples' opinions (including vegetarians). 

Anyone who thinks he/she is a vegetarian, yet still eats fish, is, frankly, wrong. Someone who eats fish (but no other meat) is a pescetarian. (Ovo-Lacto) Vegetarians = people who eat animal byproducts such as dairy and eggs, but nothing that, directly, requires an animal's death to produce. Vegans = people who consume NO animal products (no milk/eggs). It's true that some vegetarians, and even some vegans use leather products and the like. That's an individual choice. Something like leather is most often a byproduct of the meat industry, so no additional animals were killed to produce it. That's the defence that some vegetarians use. I, personally, try to buy synthetic products when I can, but I won't buy something simply because there's not a non-leather alternative. I don't go around buying leather jackets or anything like that, though. 

I'd rather not discuss Hitler at length in this venue, but since you brought it up again, I'll conclude. Hitler did many unspeakable things, yet that doesn't mean that he couldn't do anything that was good. Though whether he was a vegetarian for health or ethical reasons is argued, even if it was for ethical reasons -- so what? Have you ever noticed that, when watching a movie, people are often more traumatized by the death of an animal than the death of a person? It might have been a similar thing with him.

I'd like to correct my earlier statement: if people knew what sort of abuse many animals went through, saw how they were killed and knew the environmental impacts of consuming (large amounts of) meat, few would claim that it's ethical. We, as a society, consume far more meat (per capita) than any other group in history. Meat used to be a luxury, something to have a few times a week (or more often if you were rich), yet now it's such as fixture in our society that having a meal without meat is considered strange (e.g. bacon & eggs, ham sandwich and roast beef). Meat has become so affordable partially because of rising (for a time) income equality, and partially because of factory-farming and the gross injustices done to animals and the environment that arose from it. 



MrMatt said:


> One more thought, a bit out there but why not.
> I think eating meat of obtained through hunting is MORE ethical in many cases.
> 
> The animal is there and there is no agricultural environment.
> ...


I don't disagree with this. If you can look an animal in the eye, kill it, clean it and eat it, you hold much more of my respect than someone who buys something from a supermarket and pretends that it popped out of the ground. Letting an animal live its natural life and then killing it (hopefully as painlessly as possible) is much better than eating something that was constrained in a cage its entirely life, only to be (often violently) killed. 



VJ99 said:


> Dear Teen Trader,
> 
> Thank you for your deeply thoughtful post.
> Unlike most of us city-slickers/arm-chair philosophers, you've actually spent your life living amongst farm animals.
> ...


Thanks for the comment. I don't have much to say about your post other than that I agree with it. I don't think many people are born with a desire to hurt anything. I like to believe that if people knew the consequences of their actions, they wouldn't want to eat (at least as much) meat. 



Lephturn said:


> Of course, if they have never grown up in that environment it would be shocking. For those that grew up hunting and eating wild game, fishing, and growing food it would not be a shock. Most people I know who grew up in an environment like that are omnivores.
> 
> @Woody - yes I wish this food source was socially acceptable since it is so abundant.


See my above post. Not everyone is like me -- in fact, for people in my situation (growing up raising meat livestock or hunting). I'm probably an exception. 



Feruk said:


> I'd highly recommend this approach to trying some gross vegetarian diet.


I have nothing against the idea of fasting, but I do take a bit of offence to 'gross vegetarian diet'. If you really think that, you've never had good vegetarian food. Before becoming vegetarian, I was a very picky eater. I eat a far wider range of food now than I did a year ago. Indian cuisine alone is has a huge variety of (delicious) vegetarian options. Like I said before, there are also many meat substitutes that few people think taste any different from real meat. 




Homerhomer said:


> Vegetarians call meat diets nasty all the time and nobody makes a big deal out of it, why did this comment upset you so much to evoke such strong reaction, and why did you only pay attention to only this part of his post and not other aspects that actually may be useful to others?


Generally, when vegetarians call meat diets "nasty" it's not because of the taste, but because the idea of eating animal flesh grosses them out. I'm a fairly recent vegetarian, and honestly, the idea of eating meat is kind of gross to me already. I know that meat can taste good, and I think most vegetarians know that. From my experience, when omnis say that vegetarian food is gross it's because they haven't really tried it, as opposed to most vegetarians who actually came from meat-eating diets and have (more of) a basis for their opinions.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Young&Ambitious said:


> Oops sorry, gross vegetarian diet :02.47-tranquillity:


I've never seen any gross vegetarian diets, but I have seen lots of gross vegetarians  also lots of gross omnivores also.


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## Haligonian (Nov 3, 2012)

Teen Trader said:


> I'd like to clear some things up here.
> 
> I've been a vegetarian for just over a year (I'm eighteen, by the way).


Congratulations on being a vegetarian for over a year. You put a lot of thought into your decision (I applaud you for your decision process at such a young age). You make a lot of valid points.


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## Haligonian (Nov 3, 2012)

Many (but not all) non-vegetarians comment negatively about my vegetarian diet. I don't know how many times I've been told at BBQs "how can you eat those gross tofu hotdogs." I guess they don't really think about what goes into meat hotdogs.


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## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

Haligonian said:


> I guess they don't really think about what goes into meat hotdogs.


 Meat.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Woody said:


> Meat.


Well..yeah...there _might_ be some of that too.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Yesterday I made some 'vegetarian' (except for the ricotta/mozzarella/parmesan), lasagna, using Eggplant & Zucchini, (among other things)... made it before and we were quite pleased with the result.

Also, oftentimes using Zucchini, (which absorbs the flavor of the spices), I've made vegetarian burritos, chili, etc.....not due to any self-perceived moral/ethical reasons, but just because we prefer to limit our meat intake......(saving _that_ for the occasional steak or hamburger).


Edit: Typos.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Haligonian said:


> I've been told at BBQs "how can you eat those gross tofu hotdogs."


What I don't understand is why people want to imitate meat products with tofu and other plant based material. The are whole cultures of 100's of millions of people (probably a billion, think hindu and buddhist) that have been vegetarian for centuries. There is plenty of dishes that can be prepared, not need to mimic meat-like (hotdog) products.


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## Teen Trader (Sep 1, 2009)

Nemo2 said:


> Yesterday I made some 'vegetarian' (except for the ricotta/mozzarella/parmesan), lasagna, using Eggplant & Zucchini, (among other things)... made it before and we were quite pleased with the result.
> 
> Also, oftentimes using Zucchini, (which absorbs the flavor of the spices), I've made vegetarian burritos, chili, etc.....not due to any self-perceived moral/ethical reasons, but just because we prefer to limit our meat intake......(saving _that_ for the occasional steak or hamburger).
> 
> ...


Sounds good! Just so you know, cheese is considered vegetarian (vegetarian = eating dairy eggs, usually) but not vegan (vegan = no animal products whatsoever). 



Sampson said:


> What I don't understand is why people want to imitate meat products with tofu and other plant based material. The are whole cultures of 100's of millions of people (probably a billion, think hindu and buddhist) that have been vegetarian for centuries. There is plenty of dishes that can be prepared, not need to mimic meat-like (hotdog) products.


That's absolutely true, but some vegetarians either like the taste of certain foods (or their veggie substitutes), or just do it to 'fit in' at certain situations better. It would be kind of weird to be eating dal (Indian food) at a BBQ when everyone else is eating hot dogs, no? I use veggie ground round in spaghetti (basically ground beef) and other dishes to add protein and substance (and good taste). I also eat veggie 'chicken' nuggets once in a while, which I find indistinguishable (and much less disgusting) than their meat counterparts.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

The one item I like but haven't been able to substitute is bacon... I tried a soy version and it was quite unsatisfactory. Any recommendations folk?


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## Teen Trader (Sep 1, 2009)

Young&Ambitious said:


> The one item I like but haven't been able to substitute is bacon... I tried a soy version and it was quite unsatisfactory. Any recommendations folk?


Really? I love veggie bacon. I actually like it better than real bacon. I always liked lean, well done bacon, though, so maybe I'm just weird.


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## VJ99 (Apr 24, 2012)

This just in: Los Angeles City Council Unanimously Endorses Meatless Mondays.

Could this start a trend? What to you say, Rob Ford?

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_21968781/los-angeles-city-council-endorses-meatless-mondays


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think Rob Ford needs to consider _Eatless_ Mondays. *rimshot*


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

VJ99 said:


> This just in: Los Angeles City Council Unanimously Endorses Meatless Mondays.
> 
> Could this start a trend? What to you say, Rob Ford?
> 
> http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_21968781/los-angeles-city-council-endorses-meatless-mondays


I just read the comments ... start a trend ... I don't think so


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

He'll probably push for Meat-Only Mondays.


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## Teen Trader (Sep 1, 2009)

rikk said:


> I just read the comments ... start a trend ... I don't think so


Reading those comments makes me (even more) glad to be Canadian.


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

No I wouldn't consider it.

My physical fitness is my number one priority, and it's very difficult to maintain and build muscle on a purely vegan diet. I don't think I would be healthier, and because I don't really care about the ethical/environmental concerns, it wouldn't be worth the trouble for me.


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## VJ99 (Apr 24, 2012)

loggedout said:


> No I wouldn't consider it.
> 
> My physical fitness is my number one priority, and it's very difficult to maintain and build muscle on a purely vegan diet. I don't think I would be healthier, and because I don't really care about the ethical/environmental concerns, it wouldn't be worth the trouble for me.



Hi Loggedout - thanks for the laugh. Its rare to see your kind of raw honesty about being so purely selfish. Truly worthy of Ayn Rand (whom I haven't read and have no intention of reading)


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

VJ99 said:


> Hi Loggedout - thanks for the laugh. Its rare to see your kind of raw honesty about being so purely selfish. Truly worthy of Ayn Rand (whom I haven't read and have no intention of reading)


It's pretty clear that the meat folks can handle abuse with no problem, and the veggie folks are pretty sensitive in that department, maybe something is missing in your diet ;-)


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

It's not that I don't care, it's just that analyzing the potential costs of meat eating vs. a purely veg diet, particularly the externalities as for environmental, economics concerns and such, is very difficult. There are also many environmental concerns associated with purely veg products like corn, wheat, etc. Unless you already come in with preconceived notions of what you want to prove as I suspect many pro-veg side of the argument come into it with - this is not a simple analysis. I can really only understand and assess what impacts me, and even that in a limited way. I like meat, mainly chicken and fish, and it does my body good, that's what I understand. My family is one generation removed from subsistence farming where we slaughtered our own livestock, so talk of animal cruelty or being squeamish at the sight of them being slaughtered is not something that concerns me. Many of these animals we eat would probably be extinct as a species if we weren't keeping them around to eat and make use of in some way.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It's pretty clear that beef is worse than corn, because lotsa corn is used to make beef. Calling it too complicated so let's call it a wash seems like rationalization to me.

The people who are concerned about animal welfare are not necessarily concerned about slaughtering. It's the way they're treated while they are alive that's the problem. It's nothing like subsistence farmers who keep a few animals as livestock. Its chickens stacked in cages, unable to move, with their beaks sliced off, and standing in their own feces.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

andrewf said:


> The people who are concerned about animal welfare are not necessarily concerned about slaughtering. It's the way they're treated while they are alive that's the problem. It's nothing like subsistence farmers who keep a few animals as livestock. Its chickens stacked in cages, unable to move, with their beaks sliced off, and standing in their own feces.


+1 Killing and eating animals is one thing - abusing them is another issue entirely.


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## Dutch1 (Nov 17, 2012)

Cutting meat out of your diet is not healthy nor does it help you lose weight.

Meat contains essential amino acids that you can't get from veggies and non-meat products. Meat also helps regulate hormones, which basically control everything about you.

It doesn't help you lose weight either, at least not directly. Going veg might help in the way that you started controlling your diet compared to before going veg. If you cut out carbs you would lose weight too, so, does that make potatoes unhealthy too? 
Think about it, professional bodybuilders, natural and non, both reduce their diets to tremendous amounts of meat and low carb vegetables(more quantity of meat than veggies) and become as lean as a human being can possibly be. 

Please don't spread nonsense without actually doing some research.


End rant from a personal trainer and competitive bodybuilder.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Dutch1 said:


> Meat contains essential amino acids that you can't get from veggies and non-meat products. Meat also helps regulate hormones, which basically control everything about you.


An essential amino acid is one required for life. So you are suggesting that the millions of life-long vegetarians are not alive?
Meat also does not help to regulate hormones.

Being a personal trainer and competitive bodybuilder doesn't make one a nutritionist nor physician. Please don't spread nonsense without actually doing some research.

Think about it, profession bodybuilders eat lots of meat and low carb veggies but also do something most people don't, weight training.


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

andrewf said:


> It's pretty clear that beef is worse than corn, because lotsa corn is used to make beef. Calling it too complicated so let's call it a wash seems like rationalization to me.
> 
> The people who are concerned about animal welfare are not necessarily concerned about slaughtering. It's the way they're treated while they are alive that's the problem. It's nothing like subsistence farmers who keep a few animals as livestock. Its chickens stacked in cages, unable to move, with their beaks sliced off, and standing in their own feces.



My point was that there are environmental consequences and energy costs associated with all foods, and without an unbiased analysis, i cant take your word or that of other pro veggie types that cutting meat out and replacing is just going to be so much better. And Yeah I don't really care that much about the welfare of animals I am going to eat in the way animal rights welfare ppl do. 

In order to replace the amino acids I require for a healthy life, I would need to eat a lot of quinoa, which has its own environmental sustainability issues. 

I will continue to eat meat, it tastes great.


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

> Think about it, profession bodybuilders eat lots of meat and low carb veggies but also do something most people don't, weight training.


 If most ppl did they would be a lot healthier. Losing weight without having any muscle leaves you weak and gross. But yeah you should know you can also be a vegaterian "bodybuilder", it just requires a lot more effort to come up with a diet plan that works.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

loggedout said:


> In order to replace the amino acids I require for a healthy life, I would need to eat a lot of quinoa, which has its own environmental sustainability issues.


Why are the 'pro-meat' people so vehemently pushing that meat is required for a healthy life. This notion is simply ridiculous. Perhaps your lifestyle requires meat, or that eating meat is an easier way to obtain certain nutrients and protein but its is CLEARLY not necessary.

Are you saying that the 20% of the World's population (probably 1.5 BILLION) are nutrient-deficient. These 20% made up of religious vegetarians including Hindus and Buddists. Last lime I checked the Shaolin monks seem pretty healthy to me. Not bodybuilding healthy, but then again, average body builders have reduced lifespans so your can't convince me that is a totally healthy individual either.


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## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

VJ99 said:


> This just in: Los Angeles City Council Unanimously Endorses Meatless Mondays.
> 
> Could this start a trend? What to you say, Rob Ford?
> 
> http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_219...atless-mondays


LA? That city is so disconnected from reality and the rest of the world I'm waiting for them to outlaw fire for being environmentally unfriendly and releasing greenhouse gases. Was Pamela Anderson at the announcement with a 'Close KFC' while wearing sheepskin boots?



VJ99 said:


> Hi Loggedout - thanks for the laugh. Its rare to see your kind of raw honesty about being so purely selfish. Truly worthy of Ayn Rand (whom I haven't read and have no intention of reading) .


Can we expect a similar post on the next investment thread stating that 'loaning money for interest is immoral' and that 'private corporations are evil'? Wow.






Sampson said:


> Are you saying that the 20% of the World's population (probably 1.5 BILLION) are nutrient-deficient. These 20% made up of religious vegetarians including Hindus and Buddists. Last lime I checked the Shaolin monks seem pretty healthy to me. Not bodybuilding healthy, but then again, average body builders have reduced lifespans so your can't convince me that is a totally healthy individual either.


I can't speak for 'loggedout' however I'd like to answer and say that yes, well over 20% of the worlds population is nutrient-deficient. Including many of the Hindu and Buddist nations since a large number of them have high levels of poverty. This would also mean that a large number of those vegetarians aren't so by choice. Also, you don't have to be a strict vegetarian if you are Hindu or Buddist.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Woody said:


> I can't speak for 'loggedout' however I'd like to answer and say that yes, well over 20% of the worlds population is nutrient-deficient. Including many of the Hindu and Buddist nations since a large number of them have high levels of poverty. This would also mean that a large number of those vegetarians aren't so by choice. Also, you don't have to be a strict vegetarian if you are Hindu or Buddist.



Nice catch, I was going to write in a disclaimer, but in this case the nutrient deficiency has nothing to do with the lack of meat in the diet and more so with other conditions.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

Woody said:


> This would also mean that a large number of those vegetarians aren't so by choice. Also, you don't have to be a strict vegetarian if you are Hindu or Buddist.


It is true that not all Hindus or Buddhists are vegetarians. Famously, the Dalai Lama isn't vegetarian.

However, those who are vegetarians are so mostly by choice. Even the poorest can afford to add an occasional fish or chicken to their diet.


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## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> It is true that not all Hindus or Buddhists are vegetarians. Famously, the Dalai Lama isn't vegetarian.
> 
> However, those who are vegetarians are so mostly by choice. Even the poorest can afford to add an occasional fish or chicken to their diet.


That's another important point to bring up: A large number of 'vegetarians' do in fact consume fish and do not categorize it as a meat. So they are still getting those proteins and not from plant based sources.

I remember reading that access to new community/co-op produced farmed fish in some areas of Africa has increased the life expectancy and overall quality of life of those living with HIV.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Woody said:


> I remember reading that access to new community/co-op produced farmed fish in some areas of Africa has increased the life expectancy and overall quality of life of those living with HIV.


This highlights how complicated this issue is, and it is not a strictly meat vs. no meat issue. People in these regions do not have access to a broad range of vegetable alternatives.

To really determine how healthy a meat vs. no meat (any animal protein) diet really is, we would have to remove these factors. Money, genetics, the actual veggie or meat products being consumed, excercise etc really must be accounted for because any of those factors in themselves have enormous impacts on 'health'.


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

Sampson said:


> Why are the 'pro-meat' people so vehemently pushing that meat is required for a healthy life. This notion is simply ridiculous. Perhaps your lifestyle requires meat, or that eating meat is an easier way to obtain certain nutrients and protein but its is CLEARLY not necessary.


It's not necessary, nor is it "required". Even in the reply that you quote, I acknowledged a food like quinoa could play a role in supplementing a vegetarian diet.



> Are you saying that the 20% of the World's population (probably 1.5 BILLION) are nutrient-deficient. These 20% made up of religious vegetarians including Hindus and Buddists. Last lime I checked the Shaolin monks seem pretty healthy to me. Not bodybuilding healthy, but then again, average body builders have reduced lifespans so your can't convince me that is a totally healthy individual either.


No offense to these people but I never looked to them, particularly Hindus, as role models for optimal physical fitness and good health.

And for the record, I'm not a "bodybuilder", but I'm a fitness fanatic who does lift weights that would rather have a physique like a sprinter, running back, wide receiver, line backer, etc. than look like a "skinny" healthy person, even if I lived for 100 years more. That's my preference and all I know is that on due to my diet and exercise routine, I'm 6'2" / 205 lbs whereas my grandfather and father who did not have as much access to meat protein sources, were effectively vegetarians were/are several inches shorter and much smaller. It would be much harder for me to achieve my goals on a purely vegan diet, although I acknowledge it can be done but I know it takes a lot more effort and planning to come up with a diet plan that would make it work.

Giving folks a "broad range of vegetable alternatives" would have its own environmental/economic impacts. Like I alluded to with Quinoa, which is an excellent alternative to meats, but apparently because of increased foreign consumption, in its native country it's becoming too expensive to eat and there are issues with decreasing soil fertility.


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## Dutch1 (Nov 17, 2012)

Sampson said:


> An essential amino acid is one required for life. So you are suggesting that the millions of life-long vegetarians are not alive?
> Meat also does not help to regulate hormones.
> 
> Being a personal trainer and competitive bodybuilder doesn't make one a nutritionist nor physician. Please don't spread nonsense without actually doing some research.
> ...


Check out this link, I believe you took "essential" a little bit too literally.. http://www.livestrong.com/article/533556-essential-amino-acid-content-in-red-meat/

Meat plays a huge role in regulating hormones, it's a pretty well known truth. If you can find legit information proving otherwise that would be great. Exercise, food selection, stress, all of these things and more DO regulate hormones. 

Also, bodybuilders wouldnt be muscular and some of the leanest people in the world just because they lift weights, it takes weights, cardio, AND a clean diet. Like I was saying, those **client** diets that body builders use to lean out more than anyone contain a ton of meat. In fact, they cut out almost all carbs and get the majority of their calories from meat. Therefore, how can we possibly conclude that meat makes one gain weight, when the leanest in the world eat meat to become lean? 

Perhaps a bachelor in Kinesiology with a specialization stream in nutrition would make one, pretty dang close to a nutritionist



Sampson said:


> Why are the 'pro-meat' people so vehemently pushing that meat is required for a healthy life. This notion is simply ridiculous. Perhaps your lifestyle requires meat, or that eating meat is an easier way to obtain certain nutrients and protein but its is CLEARLY not necessary.
> 
> Are you saying that the 20% of the World's population (probably 1.5 BILLION) are nutrient-deficient. These 20% made up of religious vegetarians including Hindus and Buddists. Last lime I checked the Shaolin monks seem pretty healthy to me. Not bodybuilding healthy, but then again, average body builders have reduced lifespans so your can't convince me that is a totally healthy individual either.


We don't push it just for something to do, as in we're/I`m not out there with a sign. But when I hear people spreading info about something im passionate about, I speak up with passion. Just like a financial advisor would call out bad information on this money forum

Yes, nutrient deficient comes from an unbalanced diet. I would say close to 75% of the world is nutrient deficient. Those who can't afford food, those without access, those who have access but still choose processed food, those who intentionally leave out food groups(vegetarians). Until you're getting a wide, wide variety of foods including vegetables, meats, fish, grains, nuts, seed etc etc, you will likely be deficient in some area, and the extremity will vary. 

Please provide a study showing that bodybuilders have reduced life spans. Doesn't it seems strange that the people with the healthiest diet, strongest muscles, bones, tendons, well conditioned hearts would have reduced life spans? Seems healthier compared to your average joe.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

8 weeks in now and still going meatless saturdays and seafood fridays and I fully expect to continue throughout 2013

Pescetarian fridays often include lots of shrimp sometimes in pizza with a thin whole grain tortilla crust to keep the carbs down or with a home-made dip.
I consider shrimp to be one of the highest quality sustainable protein sources on the planet.
Other seafoods I like a lot are pickled or smoked herring, wild salmon, smoked mackerel, and occassionally lobster or live oysters as a treat; other staples include that crab flavoured alaskan pollock, canned sardines or canned herring, and sometimes some of the frozen mixed seafood combination that includes octipus and squid or storebought marinated seafood salad that includes a similar combination.

Meatless saturdays have been a little more challenging but I've found that with a little planning it is no problem building healthy nuitritionally balanced meals that I do look forward to.
Without planning ahead it was usually stuff like whole grain tortilla chips with light sour cream or almond-butter sandwiches or cheese/mushroom/spinach omelettes but more recently I've soaked dried lentils and black beans a day ahead and then cooked them on low overnight, then adding chopped fresh veggies and spices with a lot of hot chili for heat; now that was a wholesome meatless comfort food.
Yesterday it was steamed mushroom caps stuffed with chopped minced garlic, goat cheese, cherry tomatoes, topped with low-fat cheddar; mmmh, with foods like that I'm sometimes finding that my meatless days or pescetarian days are spilling over into other days of the week.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mrPPincer said:


> I consider shrimp to be one of the highest quality sustainable protein sources on the planet.


I'm curious about that: I've tried hard to find sustainably sourced shrimp but haven't had much luck -- the supermarkets and fishmongers here seem to stock the "to be avoided" types of shrimp and I've never been able to find the "best choice" types here, at least based on the recommendations of the Monterey Bay Aquarium's Seafood Watch program: http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/SeafoodWatch/web/sfw_search.aspx?s=shrimp

Their basic recommendation is to look for shrimp raised in fully recirculating tanks or ponds, or from farms located inland, away from the coast. In some cases I can't verify that the shrimp for sale were raised in those conditions, and most fishmongers and supermarkets don't know or don't care, so I usually avoid shrimp unless I can find info on the source.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

hmm, according to your list the shrimp I've been buying is not the best choice, but it's listed as a good alternative.
I've been buying the pacific white shrimp from Food Basics, imported from Thailand, and from that link you posted the Thailand pacific white is farmed in fully recirculating systems, so that's good to know.

I think I'll print out that list and bring it with me next time and look over the varieties, thanks for the link.

I was looking at this site earlier today and most of the seafood I favour is in the green list
http://eartheasy.com/eat_sustainable_seafoods.htm

Ones that I'll skip in the future are imported tiger prawns, until now I was unaware that in terms of sustainability they were considered best to avoid.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

How much protein does a person need to live and thrive? This question was answered nearly 100 years ago. Dr Hindhede of Denmark determined that the amount was so low, it could be disregarded as it was impossible to get enough food to live on, and not have enough protein. He proved this experimentally in the late 19th century, then proved it in the early 20th century in an experiment involving a whole nation for 2 years.

During WW1 in Europe, food was in short supply and imports of such foods as sugar, grain, citrus fruit, meat, tea, coffee, and spices were cut off. In Germany, which tried to keep to the prewar diet, 400,000 died of malnutrition and starvation.

The submarine menace and shipping embargo also kept the fishing boats out of the North Sea, eliminating fish from the diet, which was a big loss of protein to northern Europe.

In Denmark, where they switched to a meatless vegetarian diet, nobody starved and the death rate fell to the lowest ever recorded. Deaths from infectious diseases fell slightly, but lifestyle diseases like heart disease and diabetes fell 34%. Dr Hindhede computed that this meant 6,300 Danes lived and thrived, who would have died on their ordinary diet.

Another interesting thing is that this diet included little fresh vegetable material. The diet was made up of black bread, barley porridge, potatoes, greens, and a little milk and butter.

The black bread was made to Dr Hindhede's recipe. It included rye flour, milled 100% and not bolted, barley flour with only the coarse husk removed, and wheat bran. He found this made a lighter more palatable loaf than the typical heavy, sour German rye bread. It also doubled the bread supply. Ordinary milling and bolting meant only 70% of the rye was used. He used 100% of the rye, plus barley and wheat bran, or 140%. 

During this period of time the breweries were restricted to half their normal input of grain and the distilleries were shut down entirely. The greens or fresh vegetables were whatever could be grown in Denmark, such as cabbages, kale, beets, carrots, and rutabagas and possibly some fresh fruit in season.

A good article on this -

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/jul/lessons.htm

A report from a 1920 AMA journal, by Dr. Hindhede himself

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/jul/hindhede.pdf


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mrPPincer said:


> I think I'll print out that list and bring it with me next time and look over the varieties, thanks for the link.


They also have a really good (and free) iPhone app that updates automatically whenever they change their recommendations. I don't have an iPhone, but used to have an iPod Touch and carried that with me when I went fish-shopping so I could check. The frustrating thing, though, is that there's rarely enough source information available on the fish you buy at a fishmonger, and the fishmongers themselves often have no idea how the fish was caught. I often end up buying my fish frozen, because you can look for the Marine Stewardship Council label to see if it's been sustainably caught or raised. Apparently the MSC ratings aren't all that trustworthy (see http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/06/fish-marine-stewardship-council), but until something better comes along this is pretty much all I can go by in terms of looking for a label.


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