# Repair or Buy?



## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Hello,

My 2005 Mazda is finally breaking down after 200,000 km. I estimate that if the car is in tip-top shape, it could obtain $4000 in a private sale. But it's not in tip top shape. Suspensions are busted, probably require $2,000 to fix. A/C is busted, probably require $1,000 to fix. Body is showing quite visible rust.

At this point is there justification in buying another vehicle?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks,
Slacker


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

The lack of a/c alone is justification.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Slacker, Four Pillars or whoever do eastern cars still rust out as mentioned in the first post? I live in Richmond BC and my 2003 Sienna van is parked outside and there is no rust to be seen.

On the repair thing I would trade it in and buy something else. Also isn't this a good time of the year to buy a car. I would go a few hours before the dealer closes and drive a hard bargain if you find something to bargain on. If you don't like the deal be ready to walk away and don't forget if you do make a deal to get rid of the paper work charges.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

If you were to sink all the money in and had an accident you would never get the money you put in back.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I just spent $2,000 in repairs and replacement parts on my 2005 Toyota Matrix. I think if you buy a car with a good record for reliability and longevity, it's worth paying for repairs even if they end up costing more than the vehicle is worth, as long as you plan to keep driving the car until it dies. 200,000 kms on a Mazda should represent about half of its usable life; I drove a 1990 Honda Civic wagon for 400,000 kms before selling it for $300 to a family of four, who drove it another 200,000 kms before selling it on to someone else.

Even if you spent $2,000 per year in repairs for your old car it would take more than a decade for those costs to equal what you'd have to shell out today for a new or lightly used car, and with that new(er) car would come higher insurance costs and taxes that you have to factor into the equation. Consumer Reports did an analysis some years back on various strategies in car ownership and found that "buy and hold" was by far the most cost-effective over the long term. You have to balance that against your need for a car you can depend on, though, and rust is indeed a problem on older cars, and can shorten their effective life even if the engine is still in great shape.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

dogcom said:


> Slacker, Four Pillars or whoever do eastern cars still rust out as mentioned in the first post? I live in Richmond BC and my 2003 Sienna van is parked outside and there is no rust to be seen.
> 
> On the repair thing I would trade it in and buy something else. Also isn't this a good time of the year to buy a car. I would go a few hours before the dealer closes and drive a hard bargain if you find something to bargain on. If you don't like the deal be ready to walk away and don't forget if you do make a deal to get rid of the paper work charges.


Ontario loves salt on the roads, chews through cars like you wouldn't believe. That said, seeing a 7 year old car with 200k "Finally breaking down" is a little strange.

Without knowing slacker personally, perhaps they're the kind of person that like cars in tip-top shape.

My newest car is 8 years old. My oldest daily driver is 18. The old truck has a laundry list of little problems, including rust. Cars develop creaks and groans, rattles and wheezes. A front suspension can make popping noises for years without actually being "broken", it's just the rubber "bumpers" that keep that noise from happening wear out.

There isn't any point to investing in the repairs and flipping it though. Spend the money and keep it, or sell it as it is.


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

Before you decide either way, get better numbers than, "probably costs $2000". You might be pleasantly surprised. Have a reputable shop go through it nose-to-tail so you have accurate information to help you decide to fix it or not and what it might be worth if you were to sell. 

My cars are always well maintained. One of the side benefits is piece of mind while you drive it, but also when you go to sell - even if it is just being up front about problems to prevent someone angry showing up at your door a week later.


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## mind_business (Sep 24, 2011)

brad said:


> I just spent $2,000 in repairs and replacement parts on my 2005 Toyota Matrix. I think if you buy a car with a good record for reliability and longevity, it's worth paying for repairs even if they end up costing more than the vehicle is worth, as long as you plan to keep driving the car until it dies. 200,000 kms on a Mazda should represent about half of its usable life; I drove a 1990 Honda Civic wagon for 400,000 kms before selling it for $300 to a family of four, who drove it another 200,000 kms before selling it on to someone else.
> 
> Even if you spent $2,000 per year in repairs for your old car it would take more than a decade for those costs to equal what you'd have to shell out today for a new or lightly used car, and with that new(er) car would come higher insurance costs and taxes that you have to factor into the equation. Consumer Reports did an analysis some years back on various strategies in car ownership and found that "buy and hold" was by far the most cost-effective over the long term. You have to balance that against your need for a car you can depend on, though, and rust is indeed a problem on older cars, and can shorten their effective life even if the engine is still in great shape.


We also have a 2005 Toyota Matrix. This year I've spent about $1000 on repairs. A couple of years ago we spent about $3000 (worn clutch, brakes, etc). All-in-all the repairs to date have been worth the cost VS buying new. However we're starting to consider a new or newer vehicle as ours gets older, and I anticipate more frequent repair bills. We're going to try to squeeze out another couple of years, hopefully we'll be able to. Not looking forward to spending a large chunk of cash for a new vehicle.

To the OP, have you done a projection in maintenance costs VS cost of buying new? For the new vehicle you should consider extra insurance costs, fuel efficiency cost differences, etc.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> Ontario loves salt on the roads, chews through cars like you wouldn't believe. That said, seeing a 7 year old car with 200k "Finally breaking down" is a little strange...


The salt does take a toll.

My first car was a Ford Escort that as a student, I didn't put the money into oil spraying. By year nine, there were rust holes from end to end, on both sides of the car, with something like 238K on it. Except for the rust, everything else was good on it.

The second one was also a Ford Escort that was oil sprayed from the start. At year fourteen, there were three small rust spots, with about 372K.


Cheers


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I assume this is a Mazda3? There are known issues with the suspension failing and body rusting.

The suspension can be fixed for less than $1000 that's for sure, maybe more like $500. The rust, well that's a different issue and the A/C, could be an easy fix or a costly one.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

You should unload the car through an auto auction, then buy a newer model used car that you can afford.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Depends on what condition the rest of the car is in. I mean do you forsee a new muffler, or grackes, transmission to be done in the near future?

I wouldn't put $3000 into it to sell it for $4000. I would rather try to get what I can out of it.

On the other hand, I guess it depends on how much driving you do. I don't do alot. So I might even try to get through the winter with it as is.

I am sure that you realize that replacement value is far higher than what it is worth.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Wow. I know that salt can be harsh on a car, but in all honestly it sounds like a bit of a lemon. I'd expect that list of problems from a car 5 years older.

Even if you fix it, there likely will be more problems down the road. I wouldn't bother.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I'm surprised with the amount of rust. I have a 2004 Jeep albeit with less mileage, but it only has minor amounts of rust around the door wells.

Between the rust and other stuff - sell it for whatever you can get which I'm guessing won't be much (maybe zero) and move on.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> Ontario loves salt on the roads, chews through cars like you wouldn't believe. That said, seeing a 7 year old car with 200k "Finally breaking down" is a little strange.
> 
> Without knowing slacker personally, perhaps they're the kind of person that like cars in tip-top shape.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply, we do salt out here in Vancouver but it gets washed away pretty quickly from the rain.

Don't you guys think being close to year end that you could probably get a good deal on a used car that is a few years old.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Mazdas are known for rust problems, especially the Mazda 3. My car is a 2004 and has no rust at all, despite being driven daily in winter and never receiving any rust proofing treatment. Some manufacturers just put more effort into making cars rust resistant. I think the newest Mazdas don't have the rust problems anymore.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

My calculations, including all conceivable factors (fuel efficiency, insurance, depreciation rate, expected maintenance, etc) shows that I can save about $1000/year in total cost of ownership if I get a new Honda Fit. But to get that $1000 saving, I will have to plop down $17,500 cash.

In other words, buying another vehicle will yield 6.22% return on investment.

Does that sound reasonable?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Nothing to add except I bought a 2009 Honda Fit a few weeks ago. :encouragement:


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

Sherlock said:


> Mazdas are known for rust problems, especially the Mazda 3. My car is a 2004 and has no rust at all, despite being driven daily in winter and never receiving any rust proofing treatment. Some manufacturers just put more effort into making cars rust resistant. I think the newest Mazdas don't have the rust problems anymore.


That was my thinking when I purchased the Mazda. 

"Modern Mazda's probably fixed their rust problem by now" - Slacker in 2004.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

That's a... unique way of looking it at. I'd look at it this way, it will take 17.5 years for the savings to pay for the item.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

The $1000/year will stop being a savings after some years (less than 17.5). I would wager a 20-year-old Mazda and a 13-year-old Honda cost the same to maintain. 

Secondly, if you want a Honda Fit, definitely test drive it for at least half an hour before buying. I find the gas pedal in that car to be oddly placed and on long road trips it gives me extreme leg pain. I rented one once for a trip to Ottawa, horrible experience.


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## dcaron (Jul 23, 2009)

Funny how this thread applies to my situation as well. I own a Mazda 3 2004 with about 168,000Kms. Both rear wheel wells has started to develop some serious rust issues, as well as interior door frames, brake calipers, and brake dust shields have started to crumble. Other than this the car runs great, engine pulls strong, and runs smooth. All controls work. In almost 5 years of ownership and 80,000Kms (bought it used), Ive only had to change front headlight bulbs, tensioner pulley, and a speed sensor. Did this on my own and even bought used parts. I would not call this a high maintenance car. However, Ive not been impressed with paint and body quality, and this is will likely be my last Mazda product. 

Last summer, I have been considering getting it repaired (metal bond+ putty+paint job), for about $500. Some body shop I send pictures to did not want to repair it unless I gave them $2000+ for a professional job (sheet metal replacement, etc). 

Options I am considering are: 
#1 - getting Mazda-3 repaired and selling it.
#2 - getting Mazda-3 repaired and keeping it.
#3 - selling Mazda-3 as is.
#4 - letting Mazda-3 rust away, and driving it into the ground.
#5 - selling Mazda-3 and 330xi , and buying a single used family-friendly AWD car.

I checked on KIJIJI personal ad sites, and lots of them of same year as mine are on sale, some with rust issues , some without. Prices varies from $1300 to $3500. with most around $2000. This is our "second" car. Our other car is even older (2002 BMW 330xi automatic), but a much nicer ride, and some minor paint bubbling on bottom of two doors. It has about same mileage, but has required much more repairs, which Ive done on my own. We are expecting our first and probably only child (due to our age) in May 2013. My wife will be 43 and I will be 51 when we become parents in May 2013, if everything works out. Wife has had several mis-carriages over the last 4 years. 

Ive been thinking about getting rid of one or both of my cars, and buying a more reliable, practical, fun to drive, leather seats (easier to clean), and fuel efficient car with a budget of about 15,000$. We are somewhat emotionally attached to our BIMMER, due to its excellent driving dynamics, All Wheel Drive, and great looks for a 10-year old car. 

Been thinking about owning a SUV or station wagon as our next vehicle. What I like about SUV's is their seat height, and slight offroad capabilities. I am 6'-4", and have a bad back. A rugged vehicle would be nice as we live in rural area of Quebec, and our roads are in a terrible state. We also drive up to family cottage 3-4 times a year, which is about 550Kms away. The cars we considered and test-driven are: 2005 Infiniti FX-35 , 2007 Ford Edge, 2008 Hyundai Santa Fe, 2005 Subaru Outback H6 R VDC, 2005 Audi Allroad, 2006 Audi A4 Avant, 2006 Audi A6 avant, 2005 Audi Allroad, 2007 Cadillac SRX-4. 

Done a lot of research on maintenance aspect and reliability for all of these cars, and they all have their unique issues and quirks. The ones that have grabbed my attention most are the latest Model Year (2005) Audi Allroad , 2005+ Subaru Outback R VDC with H6 engine, and 2007+ Cadillac SRX. They all offer huge cargo space, and wonderful driving dynamics. The Audi is the most unique, but has the most reliability issues, repairs are most labor intensive, and it has bad gas mileage around the city. The Subaru Outback H6 is the most reliable but not the best looking. The Cadillac SRX is huge, and amazing seats and interior, but the one Ive test-driven had serious quality issues, which worried me for a 5-year old, 135,000Kms car.

I should probably opt for a 2007+ AWD Honda CRV, but find them somewhat boring to look at, and drive.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

dcaron said:


> ... Both rear wheel wells has started to develop some serious rust issues, as well as interior door frames, brake calipers, and brake dust shields have started to crumble. Other than this the car runs great, engine pulls strong, and runs smooth. All controls work. In almost 5 years of ownership and 80,000Kms, Ive changed front headlight bulbs, tensioner pulley, and speed sensor.


Yes, rust issues with door frame, rear wheel wells. I'm also having some serious suspension issues as well, but I consider that normal wear and tear after 200,000 km. I work in the area of GTA with terrible roads.


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## dcaron (Jul 23, 2009)

@slacker: On my end, my 2004 Mazda-3 rear suspension creaks, but is still is firm and car hugs the road.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

My shock mount broke repeatedly. Looks like this:


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## dcaron (Jul 23, 2009)

Wow. Are those located in the rear well, or in the trunk? Were they expensive to replace? What were the symptoms?


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

If you're breaking that same mount repeatedly I'd find a different garage, since that's probably indicating a longer term suspension problem not being addressed.

Unless it's because you've got a confederate flag painted on the roof, get in through the windows and are running from the sheriff several times a week.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

You'll know. That's the thing that mounts the shock absorber to the car chasis. If it's broken, the shock absorber will just poke every which way in the car wheel well and makes all sorts of noise. You can see it broken from the outside. The garage said they had to replace both sides of the rear shock absorber. $200 each side.

Turns out the mount is only $10, and that's probably the only thing needed replacement.

Son of a ...

Another garage (dealer) did mention something about a worn bushing on that wheel, so maybe that's what's causing the premature failure of the mount.


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## cutchemist42 (Oct 15, 2012)

As someone who is in the process of getting rid of his 2003 Protege5, I can attest to this. Everything about the car is fine, and it's easy to work on the car. I have personally replaced control arms, bearings, suspension end links, wheel hubs, and springs and struts myself. I however cannot stand the rust problem.

1 warm winter in Winnipeg killed my car. Uusually our winters are dry so rust was not a problem before this.


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