# Back to school, should they teach investing?



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Personally, I think sales, investing, and business would be a valuable course for kids to learn. 

Unfortunately, from what I've seen of most teachers, or people responsible for courses, they don't even have a clue about the subject matter unless it involves asking for a raise in an attempt to get themselves out of their own personal disaster (which works so well generally). 

The few courses I've seen over the years, between myself and my kids, are either a joke or plain out wrong...but they've at least been a conversation starter. 

So maybe schools aren't even capable of teaching the subject. Anyone see the episode of dragon's den where the prof tried to teach the dragons and Robert ripped up the cheque?

I suppose it goes back to that old saying, if you want something done right...


----------



## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

You have to have $ before you can invest. No question that many guidanace counsellors at schools need to improve - but more pressing IMO is that young grads need to go where the jobs are. Many, I think, sit at home and complain - this is a good article (below), but the comments at the bottom are equally good. 
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...graduates-unable-to-find-jobs-in-their-field/


----------



## fraser (May 15, 2010)

If not investing then some basic money management, credit management, and budgeting.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Personally, I think sales, investing, and business would be a valuable course for kids to learn.
> 
> Unfortunately, from what I've seen of most teachers, or people responsible for courses, they don't even have a clue about the subject matter unless it involves asking for a raise in an attempt to get themselves out of their own personal disaster (which works so well generally).
> 
> The few courses I've seen over the years, between myself and my kids, are either a joke or plain out wrong...but they've at least been a conversation starter ....


It sounds like you are more concerned about the quality at this point.






Just a Guy said:


> So maybe schools aren't even capable of teaching the subject ...
> 
> I suppose it goes back to that old saying, if you want something done right...


Not sure why you'd think that ... back in the day, those not going to university had as part of the math program, examples that walked through doing a tax return. For those going to university, the math examples for repeating payments were about loans or interest (compound or otherwise).

In a similar CMF threat, someone posted the home economics text that covered similar topics.


From my perspective, one of the issues is will some of the newer provincially mandated policies screw up the teaching?
Stuff like "it's bad for the student's self esteem to give a failing grade" etc.


As for doing it yourself - if one has the knowledge, I don't know why one wouldn't want to augment what's being taught.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

fraser said:


> If not investing then some basic money management, credit management, and budgeting.



Well Ontario claims they are building some, if not all of these things, into the curriculum ... 
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/surveyliteracy.html

I'd rather see it as a separate course though ...


Cheers


----------



## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

Money management and basic economics should be core concepts that are taught. Really the could be woven into existing courses ie math.

It was my experience some of this was taught by the business department in high school ... except the business department ended up being the dumping ground for teachers who should have retired.

Mind you if more of the population had a good grasp of basic economics it would be harder for the politicians to get away with a lot of their election promises.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

"Buy a well diversified portfolio of mutual funds"

"Here's how you fill out you're income tax return"

"Live within your means"

Yeah, great prep...has worked so well for people. Must be why Canadians are so well off compared to the rest of the world.

If people could do basic math, they wouldn't live off credit cards, there would be no rent-to-own places, no payday loan companies and cars wouldn't be advertised by weekly payments instead of total price.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> ... Yeah, great prep...has worked so well for people.
> Must be why Canadians are so well off compared to the rest of the world ...
> 
> If people could do basic math, they wouldn't live off credit cards, there would be no rent-to-own places, no payday loan companies and cars wouldn't be advertised by weekly payments instead of total price.


If people were robots that always applied the basic math to their decision making, then yes.

The reality is there is usually a lot more than basic math going into the decision, regardless of what the skill or knowledge level. The old saying,


> You can lead a horse to water ...


 applies to more people than I'd like to admit.


Cheers


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I think they should teach basic budgeting as a part of the curriculum. At least that would give the next generation some basic fundamentals.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I agree with some of the responses here about teaching the basics of money management and budgeting. However in practical terms what will more likely happen (if anything) is that the lobbyists will convince politicians to simply use this as another venue for the industry to teach kids to invest...by showing them how to create an account on the bank's website and then call 1800 to order MFS. 

Politicians are not serving the people, they are serving themselves.


----------



## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't know what you guys are talking about! In high school they taught me how to use an ATM (a decade late) and also how to fill out a cheque (a decade late).

I got a hands on education in what not to do, by doing myself. Luckily I learned my lesson rather early and turned things around. They really should teach cash flow and some household budget case studies. I don't think you need much more than that. The most important thing is to hold onto your money. Investing is moot until you actually have some money to invest.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I think a lot of these conversations ultimately boil down to, "how do we make people care about [topic x]?" and I don't know the answer to that.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

jcgd said:


> I don't know what you guys are talking about!
> 
> In high school they taught me how to use an ATM (a decade late) and also how to fill out a cheque (a decade late).


That's where as usual, YMMV. For example, my ATM training was from the bank, the cheque "training" was from watching my parents write their cheques and as mentioned earlier, the math teacher / math text used making payments on the loan (including extra payments against principal) as well as PV formulas.




jcgd said:


> ... They really should teach cash flow and some household budget case studies. I don't think you need much more than that. The most important thing is to hold onto your money. Investing is moot until you actually have some money to invest.


Part of the challenge is when one is high school, is not paying for regular bills like heat/hydro etc. and especially where one does not want to be there - there are lots of people who won't pay attention.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> I think a lot of these conversations ultimately boil down to, "how do we make people care about [topic x]?" and I don't know the answer to that.


IMO, it boils down to "is good information being presented" and then "how to motivate the learner". If the learner is motivated but the information is bad - I'd think it would mainly be the self-starters who would catch on that there was a problem.

For me, it seems to boil down to needing more than just "throw the information out there & the problem is solved". So much good information is already available at the library and/or over the internet that if information was all that was needed, I'd think we'd be seeing better financial decisions.


Cheers


*P.S.*
As another example of how much info is readily available, I ran into this web site. I have to check it out more thoroughly but I'm thinking of sending it (among other suggestions) to my brother.
http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/eng/consumers/index-eng.asp


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

My company does a program with Junior Achievement where they go to schools and teach the kids for a day about personal finance. I believe it's this program: http://jacan.org/program/dollars-sense . I have never done it myself, but people seem to think it's a good program.


----------



## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Isn't one of the main problems that so many forces are aligned against anyone trying to teach/learn responsible money management. Madison Avenue, Wall Street, Main Street, the Joneses, the entire American way of life as it has evolved in the last 50 years or so as the lessons of the Great Depression and the immigrant mentality has disappeared.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Then again it may all just be a lost cause...

How many threads are on here where people are asking to learn something, only to completely ignore any advice given to them from the experienced people they asked in the first place. 

Maybe the school of hard knocks is the best teacher.


----------



## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Yes, basic financial planning should definitely be taught in school. All it would take is a half-year course once a week, taught in say grade 12, and it would make life so much better for everyone. How many here can say they were ever taught the first thing about it from their parents or school? I'd guess that 95% of us on here learned on our own- and we're just the ones who ha an interest; how about the vast majority of the population who remain ignorant of it most or all their lives? 

Basic financial planning knowledge would probably be the most popular, and most important, class of the year.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Personally, I think sales, investing, and business would be a valuable course for kids to learn.



Lots of things are valuable.
Basic money management should be taught, however they're failing at teaching the basics.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

uptoolate said:


> Isn't one of the main problems that so many forces are aligned against anyone trying to teach/learn responsible money management ...


In terms of what's available from the for profit companies - sure.

There is a large segment that isn't under their control, where there is a lot of good information. The problem is that if one does not see it as a priority and/or has decided it's too difficult, what is there won't be used by many.

As an example of the many variables that affect people's decisions - when I was a student working in a union shop, the guy who had just made it into the union commented that "now that I'm making reasonable money, I'm spending less on beer & parties and am looking into managing it". The bottom line seemed to be that he was interested & motivated where he thought it would make a difference.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> Then again it may all just be a lost cause...
> 
> How many threads are on here where people are asking to learn something, only to completely ignore any advice given to them from the experienced people they asked in the first place.
> 
> Maybe the school of hard knocks is the best teacher.


This why I'd prefer it be taught ... but at the time, am fully aware that it's not a cure-all as those who are not interested or motivated will do the minimum and ignore it later. There will be some who will be helped but it won't be everyone.


Cheers


----------



## tiffbou2 (Jul 4, 2013)

Financial literacy is being pushed by Ontario. As a high school teacher, I've had a PD Day brainstorming strategies to incorporate this into our regular curriculum. I teach English, so it may not seem like a natural place to teach finances, but the classroom is also a great place for discussion. When I teach the novel The Great Gatsby to grade 11 students, I do a lesson on the rise of the stock market, the crash, how these affect the average citizen, and how this was similar to the recent recession. We talked a little about the housing market bubble bursting in parts of the U.S. I was surprised that a lot of these students (university bound level) did not know what a mortgage meant or how interest worked, so I let the lesson evolve from their questions. 

At the end of the day, I really think kids will learn more about personal finances from what their parents model and teach them, rather than what they will learn from a few lessons or even a course in school. Parents are sometimes quick to judge the school system for not teaching what they see as an important skill, ignoring the fact that they are most responsible for life skill modeling.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

And you think the average parent knows anything? I'm not worried about my kids...but the average parent doesn't have much to teach.


----------



## tiffbou2 (Jul 4, 2013)

No, I don't and I think that's a more pressing problem. If a child grows up in a household with parents who do not emphasize the importance of healthy finances or where borrowing is a way of life, that sends a far more powerful message in shaping their own future money habits.

I still do think that financial literacy in schools is important and I wish that I'd had it in high school. To be honest though, I probably wouldn't have really listened until it became more pertinent to my life. Kids tend to live only for the moment.


----------



## randomthoughts (May 23, 2010)

Hm. I'd like more of a personal finance course than 'investing'. Just the basics.
I'd like 2 things: 

1) Just-in-time training - maybe an online course that they have to complete to get their first tax return. There could be links after that to supplemental material. If I'm being evil, a course for each return! And make opting out of the course more hassle than just doing it.

2) De-emphasize math. Other than simple addition and subtraction, and maybe calculating simple returns. 

Rather than teach the details of compound interest and risk, have interactive charts where people can use sliders to see what happens when you save $x/month at bank% GIC% LuckyStock% CrappyStock% Market% return.

Maybe a simple credit card simulation that shows how much more crap you can buy if you don't pay interest.

That would be aiming pretty low, right?


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

tiffbou2 said:


> ... I was surprised that a lot of these students (university bound level) did not know what a mortgage meant or how interest worked, so I let the lesson evolve from their questions.


Is it the basic concept or the details?

I knew the concept but until I was getting down to the details of evaluating buying a house, I wasn't motivated to do anything more than absorb a few comments here & there.




tiffbou2 said:


> ... Parents are sometimes quick to judge the school system for not teaching what they see as an important skill, ignoring the fact that they are most responsible for life skill modeling.


While I understand the point - I'm not sure it is possible. If the parent isn't demonstrating with more than words that whatever skill is important, like it or not the message likely being absorbed is that it isn't.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> And you think the average parent knows anything?
> I'm not worried about my kids...but the average parent doesn't have much to teach.


The motivation to learn as well as instilling the importance is the key IMO. With these in place, I've learned about split shares & all sorts of other things that my parents never knew. Without these setup in early life, it's a much tougher for one to figure it out.

Assuming the average parent knows some of the financial mistakes they've made or what they wish they knew - opening discussing this with the kids is likely going to underline the importance.




tiffbou2 said:


> No, I don't and I think that's a more pressing problem. If a child grows up in a household with parents who do not emphasize the importance of healthy finances or where borrowing is a way of life, that sends a far more powerful message in shaping their own future money habits.


+1 ... especially when there's several aspects pointing in the same direction. 




tiffbou2 said:


> I still do think that financial literacy in schools is important and I wish that I'd had it in high school. To be honest though, I probably wouldn't have really listened until it became more pertinent to my life. Kids tend to live only for the moment.


That's where YMWV but having reasonable info being presented will at minimum help the self-starters and may come back to mind when the less interested types reach the point of relevance.


Cheers


----------



## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

As the ultimate under achiever in high school I would have been the 1st to sign up for stock market investing course.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Money management is one skill all of us use every day and it is NEVER taught in schools to my knowledge.

What is a budget? What does it cost to live? How do you prioritize your spending so you don't have too much month left at the end of the money?

How do you lay out your money to the best advantage? Not necessarily the cheapest price, or the thing you want most, but getting the things you need and the best value for your money.

Everyone should learn the basics of credit, how much those innocent looking fees and interest costs add up. The geometric progression that means a $10,000 car can easily cost you $20,000 by the time you finish paying for it, same with student loans.

How to get credit, at the lowest cost, build up your credit rating and use credit wisely. (Credit is a great thing to have, until you use it, then it turns into debt, which sucks).

The difference between PAYING interest, and COLLECTING interest on your savings and investments. The basics of buying the insurance you need at the lowest cost. How to tell what you need and what you don't need.

How to do your own taxes, and how to plan your affairs to pay the least taxes legally.

There are many things that everyone needs to know that just are not taught. I had to revise my whole way of thinking and educate myself on investments and business. I have managed to learn a few things, and avoid some of the biggest mistakes (which I see others making every day). But I can't help feeling I would be a lot better off if I could have taken a class in school instead of floundering around for 30 years picking it up in a hit or miss fashion.

It really makes my blood boil when I think of all the totally useless things I learned in school, that were not relevant to anything even at the time, and all the truly valuable things they never even mentioned that would have saved me so much money, and grief, if I had only learned them sooner.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I was taught the answer to this question:

Who are Mr. Radishes and Mr. Gooseberry?

I was never taught the answer to this question:

How do you save $1000 a year on car insurance?

Guess which one would have been more use to me.


----------



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

The course should also teach kids about scams and know what to look for. They could go over Ponzi schemes, time shares, to good to be true investments and so on. A good example is my step son went to a debt counselor and he never told me about it. When I found out I asked if he paid for it and he said he had, so I said you probably got ripped off and sure enough he was completely ripped off. If someone in school had taught this to him he may never have fallen for it. 

Also some time should be put to the money wasted on smoking and the dangers of gambling and other addictions.


----------



## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Ironically,investing and business(the 2 areas of my life that I am consumed with)were both not taught to me and in someways feel I am likely doing better for it!I for one couldn't stand high school and also hated the standardized subjects that were being taught.
I guess it would be beneficial to maybe learn how to build a portfolio/taxes/types and uses of different accounts and the list could go on but I see some problems.
1)you need a degree of wealth(its only when you have a positive net worth or surplus of income that one almost becomes "forced" to learn the subject matter and in my opinion this type of learning trumps the type of learning where one has to visilize a hypothetical "future"where one might or might not need it.
2)DIY investing is a entrepreneur activity and IMO a high school teacher can not teach one to be entrepreneurial!you will either have this or not(5% of students likely)
3)Vast majority of people would rather NOT learn how to invest because the majority wohld rather hire it out!
4)You cannot teach money physcology and good luck teaching risk management and learning how to take losses sect
I could think of a entire list of reason teaching investing wouldn't work in high school,but I agree a soft course in personal finance should be taught and it should be a stand alone and not tacked on for the math teacher to doa 2 week into on it


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

T teach investing is a complete waiste of time. Just like a poker game the money flows to the strong players from the weaker players. The schools could do all the teaching (memorizing, repeating with no thinking) it wants about investing the game will still not change. There still has to be winners & lossers. The winners are not namby pampy, wimps that focus on learning how to invest. Instead the winners are strong independent thinkers that take on the responsibility of thinking of how to invest. The education bubble is a sign of a weak dependent lazy socity where the masses cant even do their own thinking & judging


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Of course, there is also the law of unintended consequences to consider...

In reading an introduction to a Michael Lewis book, he talks about writing Liar's Poker in an attempt to expose Wall Street in the 80's...to warn students from the Ivy League away from careers there.

Instead, he found his book had become a how-to manual for students to get jobs and produce crap like credit default swaps we saw in the decades to follow...making the scams of the 80's pale in comparison.


----------



## warrdogg (Feb 8, 2013)

Money management skills for sure should be taught. At work the funny thing is the new young employees all drive the nicest and newest vehicles in the parking lot. I overheard one of the guys in the locker room talking about his new $20,000+ motorcycle saying "It's just another payment." Most new people I speak to are spending it faster than they make it. 

When I give my nieces and nephew money they can do what they want with it. I tell them to save 1/3, donate 1/3, and spend 1/3. Unfortunately they just spend it on stuff they don't really need.


----------



## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

warrdogg said:


> Money management skills for sure should be taught. At work the funny thing is the new young employees all drive the nicest and newest vehicles in the parking lot. I overheard one of the guys in the locker room talking about his new $20,000+ motorcycle saying "It's just another payment." Most new people I speak to are spending it faster than they make it.
> 
> When I give my nieces and nephew money they can do what they want with it. I tell them to save 1/3, donate 1/3, and spend 1/3. Unfortunately they just spend it on stuff they don't really need.


IMO you can teach all these things in school but if the kids do not have good examples at home it may not make a difference.My friend has lots of debt and bad credit and although her daughter is a college grad she si going down the same road as her mother .


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I was taught the answer to this question:
> 
> Who are Mr. Radishes and Mr. Gooseberry?
> 
> ...


The first would be more useful to me as my insurance never went much above $100/month.
To keep it lower.
Have a good driving record
Be female
Be over 25
Get married
Drive a low claim vehicle.
Be a professional and get group insurance

I you're a single 19yr old in a souped up Honda civic with a few tickets, you're better off hiring a chauffeur.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

And don't live in Toronto.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

In AB there was and still is CALM, career and life management. It was mandatory, and it covered budgeting, interest, cost of debt, ect. Here there
also jr achievement, and business in our school as options. The kids that joined wereporbably the ones tha didn't need t and would have found a way to learn it anyways. 

School can the fundamentals, however, for it to stick or mean anything, it needs to mean something the kids and needs to be reinforced. That cannot be donee by school, but needs to at home. One can understand the basics, but if they don't care then it doesn't matter.

I had a great financial education at home and at school, and then I still graduated with stupid debt and consumer debt, not because it wasn't taught, but it didn't match my personal values and what mattered to me. The school system can only do so much, its time families and parents step and teach their kids.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Spudd said:


> And don't live in Toronto.


Toronto has the highest concentration of high-income earners. Which would suggest if you want to be one of them, you might consider living here.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

MoneyGal said:


> Toronto has the highest concentration of high-income earners. Which would suggest if you want to be one of them, you might consider living here.


Sure, but I was replying (without quote, so perhaps it wasn't clear) to the post on reducing your car insurance. You can make more money here but you will pay more in car insurance too.


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I do think children should be taught many concepts of money management in school, however, I think there is an inherent issue that goes beyond 'money management' and this is curbing desire.

I believe the true problem is not that kids these don't don't know how to manage money (look at all the Gen Y, X, boomers etc) that also have piles of debt.

What really has to be taught are values around money issues - and these presumably should come from home. 

_Edited to add:_ (just re-read PA's post, something about the water, or the education system here).


----------



## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

i don't think it'll work, it'll be just another boring class for them, information will enter one ear and go out of the other... if someone is truly interested in finances, they will teach themselves... it's like with cars, if someone is really into cars they will go learn on their own, if they never cared about cars then it's pointless...


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Spudd said:


> Sure, but I was replying (without quote, so perhaps it wasn't clear) to the post on reducing your car insurance. You can make more money here but you will pay more in car insurance too.


It totes wasn't clear! I thought it was a general proviso against living in Toronto. I took slight umbrage.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

tiffbou2 said:


> Financial literacy is being pushed by Ontario. As a high school teacher, I've had a PD Day brainstorming strategies to incorporate this into our regular curriculum. I teach English, so it may not seem like a natural place to teach finances, but the classroom is also a great place for discussion. When I teach the novel The Great Gatsby to grade 11 students, I do a lesson on the rise of the stock market, the crash, how these affect the average citizen, and how this was similar to the recent recession. We talked a little about the housing market bubble bursting in parts of the U.S. I was surprised that a lot of these students (university bound level) did not know what a mortgage meant or how interest worked, so I let the lesson evolve from their questions.
> 
> At the end of the day, I really think kids will learn more about personal finances from what their parents model and teach them, rather than what they will learn from a few lessons or even a course in school. Parents are sometimes quick to judge the school system for not teaching what they see as an important skill, ignoring the fact that they are most responsible for life skill modeling.


You must be kidding. Are you not aware that Gatsby took place in the summer of 1922, before the 20s boom even got going and 7 years before the stock market crash? And that the story was specific to the time and place and could not have happened at any other time?

If I was talking about Gatsby's finances I would be talking about his relationship with Wolfsheim, how he made a small fortune acting as cat's paw for the gambler and fixer. Analyse what it cost to put up the front he put up to win Daisy back - I figure about $25000. What happened when he ran out of money, how the parties stopped and he dismissed his servants, replacing them with some shady associates of Wolfsheim's. And how he was trying to recoup his fortune by doing a deal in stolen bonds when he was killed.

The easy come, easy go, feast and famine life of the underworld character. How Gatsby was not cut out for that kind of life and how his idealism killed him, but also ennobled him and elevated him above the Buchanans and their crowd. This is what Nick meant when he said "you are worth more than all of them put together".

As far as learning more from their parents, or in the street, if you apply that rule generally there is no point in having schools at all. We could all learn everything better without schools.

This assumes parents know about finances, which they don't, and that they teach their children which they also don't. I thought that was why they had schools in the first place.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I can't believe the resistance to teaching skills that everyone uses every day. What is the point of education then? Is it a complete waste of time? Something to keep kids out of everyone's hair and out of the work force?

Do you suppose people learn nothing at all in schools, or only things that are of no use in everyday life? Are we all supposed to function by instinct and natural talent with no education or training of any kind?

Or do you suppose education and training are valuable just not when it comes to money?

I'm afraid I don't understand at all.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Sampson said:


> I believe the true problem is not that kids these don't don't know how to manage money (look at all the Gen Y, X, boomers etc) that also have piles of debt.
> 
> _Edited to add:_ (just re-read PA's post, something about the water, or the education system here).


Here's a prime example though...fear of debt. 

I was debt free when I was younger, and quite proud of the fact. 

Biggest mistake of my life. 

It wasn't until I was unable to work for several years that I learned about passive income and leverage. 

After that, I've carried debt sometimes huge amounts, the trick is knowing how to use debt properly.

The advice of "go to school, get a good job and live within your means" sounds very wise...but isn't all that intelligent without an explanation on what "live within your means" actually means. 

We are taught to fear debt, not how to use it properly.


----------



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> As far as learning more from their parents, or in the street, if you apply that rule generally there is no point in having schools at all. We could all learn everything better without schools.
> 
> This assumes parents know about finances, which they don't, and that they teach their children which they also don't. I thought that was why they had schools in the first place.


Yes, but what makes you think teachers, or the people who make the curriculum, know anything either? From talking to them, the generally know nothing as well...maybe because they come through the same system (except they have a guaranteed pension at the end, so even less incentive to learn).


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Just a Guy said:


> Yes, but what makes you think teachers, or the people who make the curriculum, know anything either? From talking to them, the generally know nothing as well...maybe because they come through the same system (except they have a guaranteed pension at the end, so even less incentive to learn).


Good point. I know I had to revise or throw out everything I learned at home, at school, at work and everywhere else. There must be someone someplace who knows something about money, credit, saving and investing. I can't believe this is some deep dark secret that can only be penetrated by the chosen few. Every time I learn something new about investing it seems simple and obvious - after I learn it. The application may be difficult but the idea is usually simple enough to be explained in 5 minutes, to someone who has the savvy to understand it.

You could start with compound interest or The King's Chessboard. Once you understand how geometric progression works you can never look at credit and interest the same way again.

Another mind blowing concept to me when I was starting out, was that if you had enough money you could live on the interest, and never spend any of the principal. And if you did this you could go on forever living well and never run out of money.

Both simple ideas that can be easily grasped by a wide awake 12 year old. But completely unknown to 99% of the adults I meet every day.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I do think its a good idea to teach the basics in school. Like I said, they do in my province. The challenge is that the basics are not enough to change behaviors. If you look at change management framework, on order to change behavior they needs to be several things.

Awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, reinforcement 

The schools and education are there to provide the knowledge, part of the awareness, but can do little in the desire, ability, or reinforcement.

The desire is one of the keys, and it needs to come from either internal, which alot of teenagers don't have the desire, or from their home life. Ability is challenging because this comes from the ability to practice. For finance, doing theoretical things do not stick the same as docking things with real budgets with their own money a home, this is the same with reinforcement. Personal finance is something that needs to be reinforced in home.

My issue with expecting the school system to change behaviors of kids. Training and education will not work ness it has the other elements. I teach at a college to provide knowledge, cannot change the students behavior, At I do change management projects , and often people come to my area ask for training thinking that will cause change in behaviors. Honestly, the people already know the training materials, and it's their organization that needs to be changed. 

Expecting the school systems to change behaviors is not realistic, expecting them to teach knowledge is.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I can't believe the resistance to teaching skills that everyone uses every day.
> What is the point of education then? Is it a complete waste of time? Something to keep kids out of everyone's hair and out of the work force?
> 
> ... I'm afraid I don't understand at all.


+1 ... as long as it's is understood that teaching the skills won't mean 100% of the students learn/apply them. It will mean that the students will be exposed to something other than the financial institutions ad campaigns.




Just a Guy said:


> ... what makes you think teachers, or the people who make the curriculum, know anything either?
> From talking to them, the generally know nothing as well...


What makes you think that those in the know are being listened to by the politicians & bureaucrats that are setting the curriculum?




Rusty O'Toole said:


> Good point.
> I know I had to revise or throw out everything I learned at home, at school, at work and everywhere else ...


No one area has everything put together ... or at least, that's what I've observed. Some of what I learned at home, at schedule and at work is still beneficial. Some has become outdated and some was junk to begin with.




Rusty O'Toole said:


> There must be someone someplace who knows something about money, credit, saving and investing. I can't believe this is some deep dark secret that can only be penetrated by the chosen few.


I learned a bit at school, a lot from books borrowed from the library, from CFM etc. So you are right, it's not a deep dark secret but ...





Rusty O'Toole said:


> Every time I learn something new about investing it seems simple and obvious - after I learn it. The application may be difficult ...


The application is a large part of the issue. I know many people who can quote the financial basics but don't apply them because they choose different values and/or decide that whatever is beyond them.

You could start with compound interest or The King's Chessboard. Once you understand how geometric progression works you can never look at credit and interest the same way again.


Cheers


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Here's a prime example though...fear of debt.
> 
> We are taught to fear debt, not how to use it properly.


This is a very valid point.

In the end, the individual needs to distill and incorporate the training from family, from education, then devise a real plan to handle their own finances. What I have never understood is why people aren't motivated to understand it for themselves. It can be a tough subject, both psychologically and literally which creates the barrier.


----------

