# Standard quality contractor/carpenter rates for renovations?



## Jimmyrigconstruction (Jan 22, 2015)

Hi guys, 

My wife and I recently purchased a home that has an unfinished 1400 sqft basement. We're hoping to spend between $50,000-$70,000 putting a high end basement suite in. 2 bedroom, 1 bath, 900 sqft. 

I've been talking to several contractors and am surprised to hear how much their hourly billing rate is for labour. I'm wondering if anyone else has any insights if these prices are too high, or is this simply the new industry standard? Here is one quote example on labour: 

"I bill myself out at $55 per hr. My next in command is $45 per hr. and my other two guys are $40 and $35 per hr."

Thanks for any thoughts! 
-Jimmy


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Go to home depot with a plan pick out your finishes and get a accurate price on materials first.My husband built our basement but we incurred a $2300 bill for Electician and $1400 for a plastering guy.He took 1 year and 700 hours to build it with my Dad being a free extra hand for him when he was making cuts or putting up ceiling tiles .We spent $48,000 in material costs ,$2800 just for the dricore subfloor and it was definitely overbuilt as far as standards go.BTW we do have a wetbar with sink ,wine fridge but it is not a kitchen /apartment.I know friends who finished similar space for about half the cost in materials that did not do all the things we did.Decent contractors wont work for less than $40 per hour mainly because there is such a high demand for them ,my own cousins do me a favor and charge $25 per hour cash under the table lol


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Many people don't really understand how expensive it is to pay people these days, even if you pay the carpenter $20 per hour you need to bill at $40. Part of that is overhead costs for the company and the larger the company the more they need to make. 

For example the worker had to get to the job, they needed to get the tools there, chances are that's a company truck, it's insured and so is the company. They're also paying WSIB and people being the way they are they take breaks etc. 

All to say the worker gets $20 per hour but the company needs to charge you $40 to even have a chance to profit.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Jimmyrigconstruction said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> My wife and I recently purchased a home that has an unfinished 1400 sqft basement. We're hoping to spend between $50,000-$70,000 putting a high end basement suite in. 2 bedroom, 1 bath, 900 sqft.
> 
> ...


I would think a high end suite would cost you over 100K. If you DIY, you can definitely hit the target you mention. 100K is pretty standard for a mid range basement development. All the suite adds is a bit extra insulation and some appliances.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

From my experience $40/hr is pretty cheap...specialists can run closer to $100/hour. 

You could also ask for a daily rate but, in my experience, if you get paid by the hour and want to earn more, you just work slower. I've had more expensive guys finish much faster sometimes.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> Many people don't really understand how expensive it is to pay people these days, even if you pay the carpenter $20 per hour you need to bill at $40. Part of that is overhead costs for the company and the larger the company the more they need to make.
> 
> For example the worker had to get to the job, they needed to get the tools there, chances are that's a company truck, it's insured and so is the company. They're also paying WSIB and people being the way they are they take breaks etc.
> 
> All to say the worker gets $20 per hour but the company needs to charge you $40 to even have a chance to profit.


I whole heartedly second this!

Say a carpenter is paid $25/hr, or even $20/hr which imho isn't a huge wage. The company that hires them has to pay Workers Compensation, as well as their share of EI and possibly other things (pensions, health benefits, etc). Along with hiring an accountant or book keeper, possibly admin staff, paying for a company vehicle, gas, insurance and licensing (not only the trades licences but possibly contractors licences, Ontario College of Trades (if said trade is mandatory), and other municipal licencing. Then there's the name registration and other start up costs (ie tools and other things). Then there's other expenses that may or may not occur such as billing/invoicing software, marking costs, etc.

You can pay some guy $20/hr cash, but if he gets injured he's going to not only sue you, but you could very well void your house insurance and end up getting sued by your local municipality. Plus if he's not making the effort to be "legit" chances are (imho) he's not going to have a great work ethic... so you could pay more in the long run. It can be a nightmare to hire cheap labour under the table, I've lived it and it wasn't pretty. My husband is an electrician, and as a result of him having started his own business, we've learned a lot... including that he pays over $2500/yr in licencing and insurance fees alone. And his business lost 14K in the first year (not unusual for trades companies starting out especially when they are part time like his). I will never hire a trade under the table again unless it was for a minor issue and I knew that tradesperson and his or her work extremely well.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

nobleea said:


> I would think a high end suite would cost you over 100K. If you DIY, you can definitely hit the target you mention. 100K is pretty standard for a mid range basement development. All the suite adds is a bit extra insulation and some appliances.


Our neighbours did ALL DIY in their basement and paid $40K, most of it being materials, and they waited for things to go on sale or clearance. I was surprised how expensive material can cost, especially wood, flooring, copper electrical wire and specialty finishes.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Everyone has good points above , I figure we paid $230 per hour for electrician and about $100 per hour for the plaster guy because he has good rep and used him before ,my cousin was between jobs and charged $25.00 per hour to come over and repaint my baseboards in my house ,definitely not building a basement. I believe the budget wont get you a high end suite for sure ,I pointed out we only have a wetbar and not a full kitchen as that would likely have cost additional $5000.My husband has his papers so he did all the plumbing to put in the bathroom and the sink in wetbar.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Surprised he broke it down for you(most won't)-package price with everything(supply all materials and labour)
A journey man carpenter will def charge you 50+ a hour
and will generally tack on 15-20% profit on his employees wage(to cover some expenses)
There is a shortage on carpenters/plumbers/concrete etc 
it's supply and demand
wages have trended up in the construction sector.


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## CrashTestSnoopy (Jan 21, 2015)

Youtube has been a great friend. From repairing toilets to patching holes on a roof (safely). If you're planning to spend 70k on renovating your basement and don't have a hard deadline, perhaps ask yourself, would I like to be paid part-time for 70k? If the answer is yes, maybe you can try doing it yourself. I know someone who redid a hobbit home and turned it into a 3000+ sqft masterpiece. He did all the wiring himself (had it verified with a pro electrician and in accordance with fire codes) all the plumbing (the bathroom on the main floor used to just be a bedroom..) and hundreds of drywall sheets. Crazy part is all of it was self-taught and done on the weekends. Youtube this, google that, some trial and error, persistence and determination. Sure, he went through tough labour and took a lot more time, but saved a ton of money and more importantly the knowledge he gained means he can get it all done like clockwork at a fraction of the cost next time around (there will always be a next time). I can relate as well but on a much smaller scale. First time taking off the old kitchen faucet, took me 1 1/2 weeks! Replacing it took me 30min.. I'll never forget the word "basin wrench".


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Just make sure you clear that with the boss!lol
My ex brother in law(ex lol)decide to spear head a full reno(he is a engineer,so def smart/intelligent)and my sister had plywood counter tops for a 1 and half and plywood floors
Lets just say a reno tests a couple when contracted to a professional!it's double when the husband does it.
Youtube is good for some something,doing a 70k reno?not so much imo


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Jimmyrigconstruction said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> My wife and I recently purchased a home that has an unfinished 1400 sqft basement. We're hoping to spend between $50,000-$70,000 putting a high end basement suite in. 2 bedroom, 1 bath, 900 sqft.
> 
> ...


Your on the high end of spectrum but definately not unheard of. Plenty of carpenters out there needing work. You can get by with paying $20-$25 hour in cash. Many union carpenters will collect EI and just do side jobs for cash. . . Definately do some shopping around.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Almost always a bad Fain(looking for cash contractors)
Problem with people who are constantly on the look out for deals
This is exactly why Mike holmes and a dozen other shows are on the air(not to mention the countless times you read disasters frequently in news media)
I would never suggest to some that is looking to get a 70k reno to look into a unregulated/illegal process,there is zero recourse,in the end one almost always gets what the pay for.
Can almost promise multiply problems

People have to understand also that the tradesman you want also screen(people seldom think about this,they apply the same thought process as if they are dealing with a services that is provided by a multi national retailer)

I don't know if it is because society has decided and it is ingrained(same rule applies to society discouraging children to enter trades)
That trades are not as worthy as other professionals
I am not saying not be smart about and not get quotes and back check prices(reputable companies and referals) but so many deem and have a low expectation as to what a service provider should be paid ie:20-25 a hr

Would the same advice apply if it was another professional?is it because a carpenter didn't study at university or a notion they are in a different class(a hangover from the depression era that today is wrong imo)


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## Echo (Apr 1, 2011)

It's funny that most of the replies suggest to DIY the reno when that's not what the OP asked. Surprisingly, there are some people who have no interest, skill, or time to handle a complete basement renovation on their own (shocking, I know).

When we hired someone to develop our basement (similar project as OP described - 850 square feet, including a family room, two bedrooms, and one bathroom) we asked our home builder for a recommendation and they gave us the name of a contractor who did work for them and had developed basements for their clients. He took a long time, things didn't go perfect (not that we expected any different) but in the end we got what we wanted for about $32,500. Keep in mind we're in Lethbridge, not Calgary or Edmonton, so I imagine the price would be higher in a major city. 

Here's a recap of the process, plus photo - http://www.boomerandecho.com/our-shocking-basement-renovation-bill/


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

donald said:


> Almost always a bad Fain(looking for cash contractors)
> Problem with people who are constantly on the look out for deals
> This is exactly why Mike holmes and a dozen other shows are on the air(not to mention the countless times you read disasters frequently in news media)
> I would never suggest to some that is looking to get a 70k reno to look into a unregulated/illegal process,there is zero recourse,in the end one almost always gets what the pay for.
> ...


There are many good deals out there to be had. To think otherwise is overlooking alot of opportunity. Finishing a basement is not rocket science and you can have excellent work done for this price without coming close to 70k. 

$25/hour is a good wage and capable of attracting many talented carpenters. I hope to do another Renovation this spring/summer. Hopefully it has an unfinished basement and it's reflected into the price. . . I pay $25/hr to the carpenter an hour, $20/hr hour for the carpenters helper(his little brother), $25/hr for electrical, $15-$20 for basic mudding and drywall work.

You need to be realistic on the wages and on the cost needed to get the job done. 70K for a basement reno is highway robbery.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Depends on the quality of the finishes ,lots of things but OP said high end finishes .A good countertop can set you pay $3000+ while somebody else ill look for one already cut at home depot for $250. General guide line is probably price materials and double it .If you go ahead with it one advise I would give you is to purchase materials yourself with help of your contractor to avoid some disappointing mix ups Anyway good luck it your project and hope you find a good company.


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