# HUGE Mess-up by Ontario Hydro!



## Justin1980 (Feb 23, 2013)

Looking for some input here...

This morning a guy from ontario hydro knocks at my door. 
I guess a guy living at the other end of our "townhouse row" (not sure what that's called. There's four houses attached. Im at one end). Anyhow the guy at the other end was out of the country for a couple months, and comes home and has a decent sized hydro bill, and so calls them to ask what's up. So the hydro guy comes, and we shut off our fuse box, let him check the meters etc. 

So LONG story short, we've been paying his hydro and he's been paying ours SINCE THE HOMES WERE BUILT 23 YEARS AGO! I've been here for only 5 years, but still!

He said he doubts that hydro would come after anyone for money, but the reality is one of us "could" have overpaid and one underpaid, potentially by a massive amount.

Any advice here? Could I be liable? OR be able to get money back?

Weird....


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

Honestly, I would talk to a real estate lawyer ASAP.

They could counsel you on what your options are, and whether or not you would be liable for any shortfall, or entitled to a credit for any overpayment.

Most offer a free consultation.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Definitely talk to an RE lawyer ASAP. Helluva mess (by Ontario Hydro). I doubt anything will be done for former owners but you guys as respective current owners probably need to get everything balanced out.


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

I have no advice for you. I just want to know how... HOW does that go unnoticed for 23 years???!


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## Justin1980 (Feb 23, 2013)

Thanks guys, i will go talk to a lawyer and get some advice. I mean, it could potentially be SO tricky. Suppose my home has been lived in by 5 different families, and the other home by 3 different families, and each families days of respective "dates of habitation" would obviously overlap with multiple other families. It's not as though we all moved in and out on the same dates...

Ya know, last year during the summer, i was out of the country for a couple months and my fiancee was at the house on her own. I was actually (just last month) looking at our bill and realized we used 2-3x the kwh during last years September. I say to her, like what the heck were you doing? She says "nothing, i have no idea..." And you know, it's been a year, you just sort of brush it off. You never even think of something as crazy as this being the case.

Problem now is: Do i make a fuss to hydro? Or will they? If one of us does, one MIGHT have to pay. But neither of us should want to make a stink unless we're CERTAIN we're the lesser user of hydro, right? I almost want to go "spy" on their house, see how many people live there etc...


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Justin1980 said:


> Thanks guys, i will go talk to a lawyer and get some advice. I mean, it could potentially be SO tricky. Suppose my home has been lived in by 5 different families, and the other home by 3 different families, and each families days of respective "dates of habitation" would obviously overlap with multiple other families. It's not as though we all moved in and out on the same dates...
> 
> Ya know, last year during the summer, i was out of the country for a couple months and my fiancee was at the house on her own. I was actually (just last month) looking at our bill and realized we used 2-3x the kwh during last years September. I say to her, like what the heck were you doing? She says "nothing, i have no idea..." And you know, it's been a year, you just sort of brush it off. You never even think of something as crazy as this being the case.
> 
> Problem now is: Do i make a fuss to hydro? Or will they? If one of us does, one MIGHT have to pay. But neither of us should want to make a stink unless we're CERTAIN we're the lesser user of hydro, right? I almost want to go "spy" on their house, see how many people live there etc...


i think you are nuts man 

is your bill reasonable ? ... are you paying an amount that seems ok ?
and hydro is going to just do a quiet reset and everyone walks away ?

but you want to walk into a lawyers office with all the expense that entails ?
have you _looked_ at what lawyers charge lately ?

i've got a better suggestion, slink off quietly into the night and keep your own counsel


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

Happens 50 times a year according to Toronto Hydro:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/10/03/toronto_hydro_mixup_leaves_customer_with_1400_bill.html

From the article: *Though the problem began when the building was built seven years ago, the hydro authority is concerned only with the past two years’ worth of bills, because that’s the time limit specified by the Ontario Energy Board on any over- or underbilling.*


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## PrairieGal (Apr 2, 2011)

I would just let sleeping dogs lie. It would be a huge mess to try to untangle, and could cost a lot in legal fees. Averaged out over 23 years I bet the two bills wouldn't be that much different.


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## Justin1980 (Feb 23, 2013)

Thanks guys, while i do agree, in just letting it go "as is," my concern lies in the potential events beyond my control:
a) the other party wants it investigated.
b) hydro automatically starts re-calculating.
....though i suppose, if - as per that article Xoron - it only goes back two years, that the lawyer fee would far outweigh anything else.

Ill keep you updated. Thank you for the input all.


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## northernguy (Oct 19, 2013)

I would probably not try to seek a fix to the years worth of necessary adjustments, especially since it could just as easily result in a big bill for you and probably not worth the trouble.

That said, might be worth putting your issues on paper in a letter to the company and ask for some kind of compensation for their error. Never know, might get something for your trouble.


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## Justin1980 (Feb 23, 2013)

Would it be a dickhead move to go over to the neighbour, with number's written on a bill that are super high? Tell him that's what i've been paying lol. That way he doesn't pursue things.... Just in case? Lol jk... sorta.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Xoron said:


> Happens 50 times a year according to Toronto Hydro:
> 
> http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/10/03/toronto_hydro_mixup_leaves_customer_with_1400_bill.html
> 
> From the article: *Though the problem began when the building was built seven years ago, the hydro authority is concerned only with the past two years’ worth of bills, because that’s the time limit specified by the Ontario Energy Board on any over- or underbilling.*


They can come after you for 2 years, and they likely will.
But if they cap his potential refund at 2 years he should see a lawyer.

I'd argue that there was a case of 23 years of fraudulent billing that just came to light. At the very least the lawyer should be able to answer if the OEB regulations can actually supercede other laws and regulations. A lawyer might also choose a different term than fraud. But the simple fact is, he was paying for service he didn't use.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

I would get it sorted out, especially if you've discovered that they only go back two years.

Again, I would go to a lawyer before anything else. If they tell you to walk away, then you will know it isn't worth it.

Personally, I would want it fixed...for me, and for future residents. It is the right thing to do (providing you don't get stuck with any associated costs - and I doubt a lawyer will be terribly expensive here. It isn't like they need to do hours of work).


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## Justin1980 (Feb 23, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> They can come after you for 2 years, and they likely will.
> But if they cap his potential refund at 2 years he should see a lawyer.
> 
> I'd argue that there was a case of 23 years of fraudulent billing that just came to light. .


Hey bro, that was actually me, just posted on the globe after reading the article.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

This really doesn't seem worth pursuing, especially through the courts.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

MRT said:


> I doubt a lawyer will be terribly expensive here.


oh yeah ... i'm going to have that phrase put on some bumper stickers and maybe a t-shirt or 2 ... has nice ring to it

what could possibly go wrong ?


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## GalacticPineapple (Feb 28, 2013)

fatcat said:


> i think you are nuts man
> 
> is your bill reasonable ? ... are you paying an amount that seems ok ?
> and hydro is going to just do a quiet reset and everyone walks away ?
> ...


I agree. These people telling you to call a lawyer are giving you terrible advice.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Keep in mind, hydro bill includes metered and fixed charges. Fixed charges should be the same between the two units (delivery, regulatory, debt retirement).

The mix-up affects only the metered part of the bill. So the total damages might be smaller than you think.

Looking at my most recent bill:

Metered charges: 53.02
Fixed charges: 50.16

Not sure how typical this pattern is but the point still stands.


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## SpendLessEarnMore (Aug 7, 2013)

so how much was your last hydro bill? You didn't find it suspicious enough to warrant a phone call to Hydro?


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> This really doesn't seem worth pursuing, especially through the courts.


Exactly. What are you worried about? Odds are that the bills have evened out over the years (assuming similar sized families) and if not - well too bad. Is he going to hire a lawyer and sue you? If that happens, that's when you start thinking lawyer.


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## MRT (Apr 8, 2013)

fatcat said:


> oh yeah ... i'm going to have that phrase put on some bumper stickers and maybe a t-shirt or 2 ... has nice ring to it
> 
> what could possibly go wrong ?


haha, it does sound a little bizarre, doesn't it?

people are talking lawsuits, courts?!? just hang on a second! 

I said to consult (FOR FREE!) with a real estate lawyer to gain an educated opinion from someone whose office, by the nature of their work, deals with hydro on a daily basis and who is passingly familiar with the law. If OP bought their house, then they already know a real estate lawyer. It would be a simple phone call. Maybe their lawyer even says to just leave it alone? I'd still make that call though, because it costs OP nothing but a bit of their time.

Some think it is "bad advice" to get a free legal opinion? I'll leave it to OP to decide what advice here is good and...not-so-good.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Lawyers, as a rule, are not in the business of dispensing free advice.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

It's Ontario Hydro, not Toronto Hydro - rules may be different. I wouldn't consult a lawyer. You may find that Hydro will investigate on its own and if they find it's basically a wash over x years, they'll leave it alone. If it's really unbalanced, they'll rectify. Either way, you'll likely get a letter in a couple of months. JME


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Lawyers, as a rule, are not in the business of dispensing free advice.


Actually lawyers will, in a brief consultation, tell you if it's worth hiring them to pursue it.
Since the OPs exposure is pretty slim, I wouldn't bother. But the other guy might have a case, realistically it's more suited to small claims if anything.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

This is Ontario Hydro's problem - don't make it yours. You paid the bills that were presented to you by Ontario Hydro. Unless they present you with an unreasonable bill for adjustments due to their mistake, you don't need a lawyer. Another poster has already indicated, that, worst case, they can't go back more than 2 years. IMHO the other owner can sue Hydro for improper billing, but he can't sue you. You didn't scramble the accounts; you didn't send him invoices; and you didn't receive any payments from him.


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## Feruk (Aug 15, 2012)

Nothing about this sounds worth pursuing. Say you pay $100/month, of which half is variable. Say the other guy uses 10% more power than you, and therefore your bill should only be ~$95/month. Over two years that's... $120! Complete waste of time to pursue, especially with a lawyer who charges more than that per hour.


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## explorer416 (Jun 11, 2010)

If I read this correctly, there are four townhouses in a row and #1 and #4's meter lines are swapped... I wouldn't be surprised if houses #2 and #3 are hooked up to each other's meters as well.

Will Ontario Hydro verify this now... or just wait for someone to call in and complain in another 23 years?


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## Justin1980 (Feb 23, 2013)

I have no interest in pursuing for my own potential financial gains. Again, the only reason i am considering legal counsel is for pre-emptive protective measure, though im unsure if such would exist, as opposed to just knowing perhaps "what to expect." Im friends with my #2 and they checked at the same time, and their meters are fine.

As the article said, the one family owed $1400. But that was only because Toronto Hydro has a 2 year max that they can go back. Im not sure if it's the same across ontario. Im in ottawa.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I can't imagine any penalty you would face would justify even a few billable hours for a lawyer, and then you would be turning a hypothetical expense into a out of pocket expense.


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