# P148 - Resolving your dispute: Objection and appeal



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Anyone had to use the P148 Objection and appeal process?
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/p148/p148-e.html

In my recent altercation with Her Majesty over RSSP contributions from 2006, it seems that I will have to use the objection process. AFAICS from the CRA instructions, I basically have to write to Chief of Appeals, in my case, in Sudbury. The instructions are a bit hard to follow since they seem to blend from this basic Objection through to appeal to Tax Court and thence the Supreme Court, all in one breath. It is not clear whether fees are due on a basic objection or whether there is anything other than a free form letter plus supporting documentation required to submit one. The time limit on an objection is 90 days, so it doesn't leave a lot of time to gather prehistoric bank records and so forth.

If anyone has done this, I would appreciate any insights into how it works at a practical level.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gardner said:


> Anyone had to use the P148 Objection and appeal process?
> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/p148/p148-e.html


Back in 2010, I filed a notice of objection through a legal firm (Koskie-Minsky), who filed an objection on behalf of Nortel pensioners that income tax deducted from the lump sum paid to each pensioner from the HWT (Health and Welfare Trust fund) was not supposed to be taxed.as it was a benefit for pensioners. 

It was, and the sum paid to me had 20% tax witheld.

I claimed the full amount of my Nortel HWT settlement on my 2010 return, which included the income tax paid. I submitted a form to K&M, to submit to CRA in Sudbury. *There was no fee associated with this notice of objection. *


> I basically have to write to Chief of Appeals, in my case, in Sudbury. The instructions are a bit hard to follow since they seem to blend from this basic Objection through to appeal to Tax Court and thence the Supreme Court, all in one breath.


That's the basic process they use in case it goes that far, but in most cases the CRA Chief of Appeals in Sudbury, will evaluate and consider your filed objection, and make a ruling on it before it even goes to tax court.

In my case, my *Notice of Objection was denied *by the Chief of Appeals. 

The letter I got from CRA in Sudbury even indicated that tax would be payable (with interest) on my appeal submitted through K&M. (I had already paid that
tax because it was withheld in the first place from my lump sum payment).

In my followup letter to CRA Chief of appeals, last Sept 2016, I indicated that and included a copy of my T5 slip that showed tax was withheld at source.

I also indicated that I had signed a withdrawa from the appeal, two years back, 
(after the first denial by CRA). I withdrew my notice of objection, as I didn't want to get into more hassles dealing with CRA. 
I replied to CRA that if K&M law firm wanted to proceed with the next phase of the appeal on behalf of the other Nortel pensioners, they had my blessing but I didn't
want to be included in the next phase of the appeal. 

That's the last I heard from them. 



> It is not clear whether fees are due on a basic objection or whether there is a*nything other than a free form letter plus supporting documentation required to submit one*. The time limit on an objection is 90 days, so it doesn't leave a lot of time to gather prehistoric bank records and so forth.
> 
> If anyone has done this, I would appreciate any insights into how it works at a practical level.


You just have to submit any related documentation to your appeal, keep copies of
EVERYTHING and the form. It can take months, even years before you hear from
them.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

carverman said:


> keep copies of EVERYTHING and the form.


Form? I wasn't able to see any specific form.

I am considering whether to send the objection registered. Seems a reasonable precaution.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gardner said:


> Form? I wasn't able to see any specific form.
> 
> I am considering whether to send the objection registered. Seems a reasonable precaution.


You could send it registered, but save yourself the registration cost as you also
need to send any relevant documents to your objection. Keep copies for yourself
in case you get followup letters from CRA Chief of Appeals. 

You can print form T400, fill it out, *make a photocopy of it before you mail it. * 
Note: There is also a online fillable PDF form).

There are 3 ways to file a notice of objection. Read this:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/lf-vnts/ppls/bjct-eng.html
and
this is the PDF form:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t400a/README.html
Just print it out and fill it out and attach any COPIES of the letters from CRA, copies of your assessments
and any other documents that may be required.

Put them in a large manila envelope and send those in at the same time with the Notice of Objection, stating the reason for objection.

and Good Luck with CRA.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks carver,

I also found this write-up:

http://www.dominiontaxlaw.com/how-to-handle-disputes-with-the-cra/



> the CRA takes the position that if you filed a tax return in a manner that is in any way inconsistent with their policies (which may or may not be consistent with the law) then you are at the very least negligent or careless. So the upshot is that as far as the CRA is concerned, if they want to, they can reassess you at any time for anything they do not like. That is also not the law as determined by the Tax Court, but that is just how the CRA rolls.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gardner said:


> Thanks carver,
> 
> I also found this write-up:
> 
> http://www.dominiontaxlaw.com/how-to-handle-disputes-with-the-cra/


Yes, if you file incorrectly due to bad math, or inconsistent documents supplied when requested,
they can reassess you by given you notice by letter that you have "x days to supply the required documents" to satisfy CRA and prove your point.

I got another audit last year about the Happy Homes renovation tax credit expense, which was very significant in 2015, so they asked to see all receipts otherwise face re-assessment if not received within 30 days.

Normally you don't have to send in the receipts at tax filing time, but you have
to hold on to them for 6 years, in case they want to see them again. 

I sent them in with a covering letter, and since I also have a DTC, they determined that my expenses were legit and sent me back the original receipts along with their letter they were satisfied with my Happy Homes expenses.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

carverman said:


> they were satisfied with


Jeez, that's a first. Congrats.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Well, my sheaf of papers is in the mail. I sent it registered.

In the end, although the bank had no individual transaction records on the accounts, they could query all the tax documents for a given SIN and this provided the key bit of information to prove I am not holding any records back.

I followed someones advice to never let them touch actual original documents and to itemize everything.

I would further advise people, when making lump-sum contributions to your RRSP, never deposit a round figure. I put in 5,000.00 and if I'd put in 5,002.12 (like by making the last 4 digits be the date) it would have been easier to spot a duplicate record and resolve after the fact.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

The obtuseness and sheer Kafkaesque behaviour of the CRA has astonished me to a whole new level.

After reassessing me in Dec 2016 for tax-year-2006, I filed an objection in Jan 2017 -- well within 90 days.
Yesterday I got the notice that I can't object because it was more than 90 days -- since 2006.

The net is that THEY can choose a random historic year to open up, but if they choose one more than 90 days ago, the objection process is inoperable.

The guy on the phone was sympathetic but "gosh, I'm not sure why they did it that way, but its rejected now" is not super helpful. And, due to the CRA's delay in processing the rejection, it now IS past 90 days from the original reassessment and it seems that I'm stuffed.


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## Nerd Investor (Nov 3, 2015)

gardner said:


> The obtuseness and sheer Kafkaesque behaviour of the CRA has astonished me to a whole new level.
> 
> After reassessing me in Dec 2016 for tax-year-2006, I filed an objection in Jan 2017 -- well within 90 days.
> Yesterday I got the notice that I can't object because it was more than 90 days -- since 2006.
> ...


It's 90 days from the date of the assessment/reassessment, so if the reassessment is dated Dec 2016 and you filed your objection in Jan 2017, they are wrong, you can object.
Perhaps it was taken as though you were objecting tot he 2006 original assessment? (Which would have obviously been several years ago). 

Furthermore, the normal reassessment period is 3 years from the date of the original assessment. For them to go beyond that, they need to prove they believe you misrepresented your return due to carelessness or willful action (or suspect fraud). 

You always have to think cost/benefit before engaging an accountant or a lawyer but if they are truly jerking you around/denying your Notice of Objection look into Tax Court. For amounts in dispute under a certain threshold I think the filing fee is waived (or is pretty cheap). 

Last tip I have: if you are registered for online access on your account you can actually file you objection online through that.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Nerd Investor said:


> if the reassessment is dated Dec 2016 and you filed your objection in Jan 2017, they are wrong


Certainly that is the case. But their intransigence on this sort of thing is amazing.

The process from here is to file a Request for Extension -- even though I should not need one . I was advised by the Appeals Intake Centre that this would trigger another look at the original objection, possibly resulting in a correct understanding of the dates involved.

Today, in fact, is the last day of the original 90-day objection period, and I am toying with ALSO sending the whole thing again by FAX as if it were a new and original objection, on the off chance that I would get another crack at having the dates evaluated correctly.


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## Nerd Investor (Nov 3, 2015)

gardner said:


> Certainly that is the case. But their intransigence on this sort of thing is amazing.
> 
> The process from here is to file a Request for Extension -- even though I should not need one . I was advised by the Appeals Intake Centre that this would trigger another look at the original objection, possibly resulting in a correct understanding of the dates involved.
> 
> Today, in fact, is the last day of the original 90-day objection period, and I am toying with ALSO sending the whole thing again by FAX as if it were a new and original objection, on the off chance that I would get another crack at having the dates evaluated correctly.


When I worked at an accounting firm, and before the advent of being able to file an objection online, I would generally fax all the Notice of Objections I filed and keep the fax confirmation as proof it was sent on time.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

A miracle has occurred! Today, a mere six months after my objection, I received a letter saying, basically, "yeah, you're right. sorry".


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