# Navy changing titles of junior ranks



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The Royal Canadian Navy is going to change the titles of the junior ranks. They plan to drop the term "seaman" and the public can vote on their choice. This is just an opinion poll.



> CBC article: Members of the navy as well as the public at large have until Friday to vote online on two alternatives, with both variants substituting "sailor" in place of "seaman" in different ways.
> 
> One simply replaces "seaman" with "sailor" in the existing ranks. The other would do away with adjectives such as "able" and "leading" in favour of labels such as "sailor first class" and "sailor second class." There is also an option to suggest alternative terms.


I spent some time trying to find the voting link, and finally found it in Facebook (I really hate when things are in Facebook, because it locks out everyone who doesn't use it).

Here is a direct link to the Navy's voting form for anyone who is interested.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Not sure why anyone thought this requires a public vote. Maybe to show how out of touch a concentration of dinosaurs can be

I find it interesting on the air force side Canada already refers to aviators while the US still use the term airmen. We seem more progressive on paper but the US has +20% women serving and we have -15%

My US sqn happens to be much closer to 50/50 and it changes the culture quite a bit. Navy is very different by comparison


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Why do they feel the need to change it? Can they not have seamen and seawomen? Duhhhh.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Why have two names based on gender when they do the same role/work? Many professions are replacing gender titles with just the role of the work. What if the person identifies differently?

Not that I really care what they call themselves, but it's a good thing to take out the gender when not required and focus on the role.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

So when do we vote to rework Canadian French to be gender neutral?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Why have two names based on gender when they do the same role/work? Many professions are replacing gender titles with just the role of the work. What if the person identifies differently?
> 
> Not that I really care what they call themselves, but it's a good thing to take out the gender when not required and focus on the role.


The military have 'ranks' unlike the public where the only thing like a rank would be a supervisor or manager, etc. title. Two people on an assembly line regardless of gender don't have any 'rank' designation and no need for one. The Military is hierarchial in structure and relies on rank to keep the chain of command clear to all. Rank is not necessarily about the 'role/work' someone does. 

Your co-worker on an assembly line cannot 'order' you to do something. In the military, your superior in 'rank' can, even when you both do the same job. 

It is only in the Navy that they happen to have used a term that APPEARS to be gender specific but is in fact simply traditional. 




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Military ranks - Canada.ca


Ranks and insignias of the Navy, Army and Air Force.




www.canada.ca




In fact, the 'rank' does not refer to gender, it refers only to 'rank' but that seems to be a concept some people can't understand. 

So why not leave the 'rank' alone and take the 'gender' argument out of it since 'gender' was never part of it to begin with, only the level of responsibility and authority that the 'rank gives a PERSON regardless of 'gender'. If a female 'master seaman' gives a male 'ordinary seaman' an order, that ordinary seaman has no question of whether he has to obey the order or not and gender has nothing to do with it whatsoever UNLESS someone MAKES it an issue.

If they want to change it to Master Sailor and Ordinary Sailor, so be it but personally, I think it is stupid and pointless. Why don't we do away with Mr. and Mrs. and all other titles that someone could complain about that actually are gender specific. 

In fact, why don't we just do away with any references whatsoever to gender. Let's get rid of the terms, 'man, woman, gender, he, she.' Now try writing something that refers to more than one 'person'. The only thing you would have left would be the person's name. No wait, let's do away with gender associated names as well. No Jack or Jill, just all gender neutral names if you can think of any. See how that works.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I thought the term "seaman" was stupid, so "sailor" makes a lot more sense to me.

It would be a good idea to give the navy a few more ships to "sail" around in as well.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Aviator and sailor sound much more professional. Airman and seaman were chosen in a different era. These terms are used to refer to the profession and not just a rank

Boomers will go great lengths to justify their world view in convoluted ways because they don't want to acknowledge their own bias. It's called the backfire effect.



> Deputy Commander of the Royal Canadian Navy here. I have been made aware of the discourse occurring on on-line forums since we adopted our rank-change initiative, and I apologize for not chiming in earlier but frankly I needed a minute to come to terms with some of the comments that have been posted. First off, I would like to say that in my 33 years of service, I have had the privilege to work alongside the most incredible cohort of talented and professional sailors, who represent the diverse backgrounds that our great country is made of. I am proud to serve alongside the many different women, men, trans and non-binary members who bravely don the RCN uniform in order to serve our country and defend the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> This is why I strongly support our Rank Change Initiative, as I believe it is long overdue that ALL Royal Canadian Navy processes and policies, including our Ranks, reflect, honour and recognize the service and sacrifice made by ALL of our SAILORS. I would like to thank those of you who have provided constructive feedback and respectful dialogue on this issue, as these kinds of consultations are critical to designing an RCN that is fit for the sailors of the future.
> 
> ...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> Aviator and sailor sound much more professional. Airman and seaman were chosen in a different era. These terms are used to refer to the profession and not just a rank
> 
> Boomers will go great lengths to justify their world view in convoluted ways because they don't want to acknowledge their own bias. It's called the backfire effect.


LOL, the use of the rank of 'aviator' in our Air Force is ridiculous in my opinion. It's used only on the two lowest ranks and has NOTHING to do with flying whatsoever. No 'Aviator' flies anything in our Air Force. They would have done better to use the same ranks as the Army, Private. Our Air Force uses the same ranks as the Army for all other ranks from Corporal on up.

Rank does NOT refer to profession as you say m3s. Rank refers only to the level of authority and responsibility a person has. Someone's rank tells you absolutely nothing about what they do as a 'job' in the military. What 'rank' tells you someone is a navy cook? 

Here are jobs in the military, tell me which rank 'seaman' if you think a rank of 'seaman' is connected to someone's job in the navy.




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Careers | Canadian Armed Forces


Search current job opportunities in the Canadian Armed Forces. Explore available careers in the Forces and find your dream occupation.




forces.ca


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> The military have 'ranks' unlike the public where the only thing like a rank would be a supervisor or manager, etc. title. Two people on an assembly line regardless of gender don't have any 'rank' designation and no need for one. The Military is hierarchial in structure and relies on rank to keep the chain of command clear to all. Rank is not necessarily about the 'role/work' someone does.
> 
> Your co-worker on an assembly line cannot 'order' you to do something. In the military, your superior in 'rank' can, even when you both do the same job.
> 
> ...


I understand that military has rank... as you so eloquently put it... Duhhhh. To stay on the specific topic. 
The proposed change is from 'SeaMAN' to sailor.



Longtimeago said:


> Why do they feel the need to change it? Can they not have seamen and sea women? Duhhhh.


The need to change is because the official rank as you mansplained is 'SeaMAN', there is no official recognition of 'Sea women'. Taken directly from your official link

Junior Non-Commissioned Members​Master Seaman (MS)Master Corporal (MCpl)Leading Seaman (LS)Corporal (Cpl)Able Seaman (AB)Private (Trained) (Pte (T)) / Aviator (Trained) (Avr (T))Ordinary Seaman (OS)Private (Basic) (Pte (B)) / Aviator (Basic) (Avr (B))

As you can read, all Non-commissioned members must be 'Seaman' regardless of gender to be recognized. To be referred to as a Sea woman has no official rank. So your suggestion would be to add 'Sea woman' However, then you would have Seaman/Seawoman for the exact same role/rank. Which brings back to response of why have 2 names for something that is exactly the same other than gender when a generic rank would suffice.

Don't say that it is implied because that is the problem that they are trying to address. If 'man' and 'woman' can be used interchangeably, then change the name to "sea woman' for all. I suspect some mean will take offense to that, but yet that is exactly what is implied. 

In terms of the title Mr. & Mrs, don't forget Ms and Miss. Notice how the male only has one title where as the female has three. Why is that - different levels of respect based the females marital status. Unless marital status is important to the context of the relationship (perhaps you want to date the person), there shouldn't be a distinction especially in business. I am okay with Mr & Ms as a way for my children to show respect to people order than them as there is no gender neutral one and it's okay to recognize that are females and males. I knew single mother who is business leader that referred to herself as Mr. X. I also know many female doctors that find the Drs offensive and put 'Dr' on their professional titles. This is all about context in a working environment where gender should not matter.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Rank does NOT refer to profession as you say m3s. Rank refers only to the level of authority and responsibility a person has. Someone's rank tells you absolutely nothing about what they do as a 'job' in the military. What 'rank' tells you someone is a navy cook?
> 
> Here are jobs in the military, tell me which rank 'seaman' if you think a rank of 'seaman' is connected to someone's job in the navy.
> 
> ...


So which rank is higher 'seaman' or 'seawoman'


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Gender only matters to those who MAKE it an issue in my opinion. I don't care what gender someone is or what rank name the military choose to use. They can call them all, 'lowly newbies' and 'less lowly newbies' for all I care. I just don't think it is important enough to make a media event out of it.

They are NOT proposing a change to 'sailor' Plugging Along, did you read the CBC article james4beach linked? They are putting it up for a vote by serving navy personnel and the public. Posting on facebook, etc. about it. They could have simply changed it to 'sailor' without having to ask anyone to vote on it. What then is the purpose of asking people to vote? I suggest it is simply to say, 'look at us and how pc we are.' Now they have MADE it an issue. Then some Admiral gets to say on Facebook, 'we have no place for 'hateful, misogynistic and racist' beliefs. Where did he get 'racist' from? Did someone vote for 'other', 'white ordinary seaman' and give him an excuse to add 'racist'?

It is a PUBLICITY play pure and simple Plugging Along. See through it to why they are doing it this way rather than simply changing the rank without having to publicize it.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> The military have 'ranks' unlike the public where the only thing like a rank would be a supervisor or manager, etc. title. Two people on an assembly line regardless of gender don't have any 'rank' designation and no need for one. The Military is hierarchial in structure and relies on rank to keep the chain of command clear to all. Rank is not necessarily about the 'role/work' someone does.
> 
> Your co-worker on an assembly line cannot 'order' you to do something. In the military, your superior in 'rank' can, even when you both do the same job.
> 
> ...


Shouldn’t “man”ager be changed to personager?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Gender only matters to those who MAKE it an issue in my opinion. I don't care what gender someone is or what rank name the military choose to use. They can call them all, 'lowly newbies' and 'less lowly newbies' for all I care. I just don't think it is important enough to make a media event out of it.
> 
> They are NOT proposing a change to 'sailor' Plugging Along, did you read the CBC article james4beach linked? They are putting it up for a vote by serving navy personnel and the public. Posting on facebook, etc. about it. They could have simply changed it to 'sailor' without having to ask anyone to vote on it. What then is the purpose of asking people to vote? I suggest it is simply to say, 'look at us and how pc we are.' Now they have MADE it an issue. Then some Admiral gets to say on Facebook, 'we have no place for 'hateful, misogynistic and racist' beliefs. Where did he get 'racist' from? Did someone vote for 'other', 'white ordinary seaman' and give him an excuse to add 'racist'?
> 
> It is a PUBLICITY play pure and simple Plugging Along. See through it to why they are doing it this way rather than simply changing the rank without having to publicize it.


Gender only matters when your are not the dominate gender. It becomes only an issues when your gender has been categorized as the 'lesser' gender in history. 

The link James posted to the actual vote IS to change the rank to either "Sailor' or 'Sailor classes' aka something without man in it. 

I agree they should have just changed it, I don't know why a vote or anything public was needed. At best, ask the people that are impacted the Seaman or those in the Navy. The fact that they publicized it, doesn't change the fact the fact they need to change the rank. Criticize all you want about the publicity but don't deter from the point that the change needed to be made.

Keep it simple, forget the publicity... what's your vote
A) Add 'Sea woman' to the rank
B) Change to 'Sea woman' instead of 'Sea man' 
C) Change 'Seaman' to 'Sailor' or a "Sailor'
D) Not change anything.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I agree they should have just changed it, I don't know why a vote or anything public was needed. At best, ask the people that are impacted the Seaman or those in the Navy. The fact that they publicized it, doesn't change the fact the fact they need to change the rank.


I can imagine the salty old seamen raging about any proposed changes. They want recruits to be treated the same as they were treated. As is tradition.

The commanders tend to be more in touch and seem to be using a public vote to confirm this


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## prisoner24601 (May 27, 2018)

Nelson's era had it right. Crew -> Competent Crew -> Mate -> Master Mate -> Petty Officer.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Don't care one way or another. Absolutely no impact on my day to day life. I could care less.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)




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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> Aviator and sailor sound much more professional.


I agree


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think it should have been aviator and sailor for a very long time. It truly does sound better no matter what.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> I think it should have been aviator and sailor for a very long time. It truly does sound better no matter what.


Think of all the lost seaman jokes ... just saying. 

But really, do we need to change these titles?

If we do then how about we start from the top with these changes ...
Currently we have male and female, man and woman.

So to make a clear distinction how about male and fe and man and wo?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I just don't see the need to differentiate 'status', 'rank', or 'title' by gender. Policeman/policewoman is just as bad. They are simply police officers, constables, peace officers, etc. by trade and position. Ww call bus drivers...bus drivers, security guards.....security guards. Nuff said.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If you look at most organizations policies and websites etc I think you will find they often chose gender neutral terms already (eg postal worker, mail carrier vs postman etc) Even though many boomers still use the old terms out of habit it's not a big deal. Changing the documentation is what's important so the next generation can just move on


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

The Navy probably should have just changed it and not bothered to ask anyone's opinion. We don't call female police officers "Policeman Rhonda Jones" as an official position title. The story was how many needlessly hateful comments came out of it. Not a big deal, time to move on.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

doctrine said:


> The Navy probably should have just changed it and not bothered to ask anyone's opinion.


The public's "vote" is not committing them to anything. They are seeking input, and the poll is not very serious.

I think it shows that the Navy and Canadian Armed Forces are actually quite modern and progressive. This is great... interacting with the public, modernizing some archaic terms.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

This post on reddit was interesting (the Admiral who posted to facebook messaged a guy on reddit)

The US military leadership has been very active on reddit. For example some reddit posters got invited to the pentagon. I think they get more authentic feedback this way

The space force updates are being streamed on facebook live of all things. Heck I get my intel from twitter nowadays


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

doctrine said:


> The Navy probably should have just changed it and not bothered to ask anyone's opinion. We don't call female police officers "Policeman Rhonda Jones" as an official position title. The story was how many needlessly hateful comments came out of it. Not a big deal, time to move on.


I'll just speculate, but I imagine that it is for publicity. While I doubt that the fact that RCN personnel are called seaman is an impediment for recruitment, the fact that the most traditional branch of the CAF is willing to change with the times may resonate with this generation. I believe that the RCN is one of the hardest hit when it comes to recruitment. While we talk about getting new ships, one of the elephants in the room is the fact there aren't enough personnel to crew them effectively.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

No zoomer wants a job without wifi

Starlink will have them updating tiktok from sea soon enough


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> I'll just speculate, but I imagine that it is for publicity. While I doubt that the fact that RCN personnel are called seaman is an impediment for recruitment, the fact that the most traditional branch of the CAF is willing to change with the times may resonate with this generation. I believe that the RCN is one of the hardest hit when it comes to recruitment. While we talk about getting new ships, one of the elephants in the room is the fact there aren't enough personnel to crew them effectively.


Well, believe it or not, but the Royal Canadian Navy has been actively trying to improve recruitment for years. Because of many of the changes, they have actually appeared on a number of national "Top 100 Employer" lists because of efforts to improve working conditions, quality of life, and attractiveness of the job. 

It's hard to stay on top of this and be attractive for talent and competitive with the Shopify's of the world when you have a number of archaic traditions that need to change, and that won't at all impact anyone's ability to be proud of what they do.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

doctrine said:


> Well, believe it or not, but the Royal Canadian Navy has been actively trying to improve recruitment for years. Because of many of the changes, they have actually appeared on a number of national "Top 100 Employer" lists because of efforts to improve working conditions, quality of life, and attractiveness of the job.
> 
> It's hard to stay on top of this and be attractive for talent and competitive with the Shopify's of the world when you have a number of archaic traditions that need to change, and that won't at all impact anyone's ability to be proud of what they do.


Not sure about recent efforts, but there are 2 articles about the issue of recruitment and retention. The main stumbling block probably is the nature of the job, i.e. being at sea for months at a time.
Royal Canadian Navy culture a barrier to recruitment efforts: retired commander
Sailor shortage causing headaches for Royal Canadian Navy


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Just a follow-up, it's settled on sailor. I don't think there's much surprise there.

Royal Canadian Navy Adopts More Inclusive Rank Designation - Canada.ca


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't think we need all these ships, sailors and whatnot. All we need is a few nuclear submarines equipped with nuclear tipped ballistic missiles.

Then if someone screws around with us we can nuke dickem.........nick dukem,........dick kickem.....


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I don't think we need all these ships, sailors and whatnot. All we need is a few nuclear submarines equipped with nuclear tipped ballistic missiles.
> 
> Then if someone screws around with us we can nuke dickem.........nick dukem,........dick kickem.....


Sorry the military shouldn't just start with nukes, just like cops shouldn't just start with shooting.


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