# Homeowner Money Saving Tips



## Top_Spin

One of the joys of home ownership is learning to save wherever possible. Here are a few tips that I used. hopefully others will share as well:

- Saved $30 per month by switching from bell to FPL
- Installed 0.5 GPM Faucet aerators. The ontario standard is 2.5 GPM. Great product. You can buy from a lot of places. I bought at eartheasy.com. Came out to about $2.6 each including shipping.
- Reduced gas bill by about $50 per month (in winter months) by taping up badly easled ducts by heater in boiler room. Foil tape cost roughly $5. 

i need to figure out a solution for the windows. The windows in my house were just better insulated. These windows are double pane, but they are the kind that open by spining the lever. Which is nice, but there is no real seal. 

Happy saving!
TS


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## MrMatt

Top_Spin said:


> One of the joys of home ownership is learning to save wherever possible. Here are a few tips that I used. hopefully others will share as well:
> 
> - Saved $30 per month by switching from bell to FPL
> - Installed 0.5 GPM Faucet aerators. The ontario standard is 2.5 GPM. Great product. You can buy from a lot of places. I bought at eartheasy.com. Came out to about $2.6 each including shipping.
> - Reduced gas bill by about $50 per month (in winter months) by taping up badly easled ducts by heater in boiler room. Foil tape cost roughly $5.
> 
> i need to figure out a solution for the windows. The windows in my house were just better insulated. These windows are double pane, but they are the kind that open by spining the lever. Which is nice, but there is no real seal.
> 
> Happy saving!
> TS


What about peelable caulking? 
Or those nice shrink plastic covers.


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## somecanuck

Top_Spin said:


> - Saved $30 per month by switching from bell to FPL
> - Installed 0.5 GPM Faucet aerators. The ontario standard is 2.5 GPM. Great product. You can buy from a lot of places. I bought at eartheasy.com. Came out to about $2.6 each including shipping.


The faucet is a brilliant idea. My wife is fond of leaving the tap running (on hot water no less) while she walks about the kitchen.

I'd switch to a VOIP phone service if Bell wouldn't nail me with a dry loop fee for using DSL without a voice line.


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## mind_business

Did you get an older home (pre 1970's), semi older home (1970-1990's), or a newer home?

The type of tips offered could be different depending on the age of the home.

One cheap, but important tip is to make sure all the caulking is in good condition around all windows and doors. Prevents some drafts, but more importantly pretects against water damage.


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## Top_Spin

mind_business said:


> Did you get an older home (pre 1970's), semi older home (1970-1990's), or a newer home?
> 
> The type of tips offered could be different depending on the age of the home.
> 
> One cheap, but important tip is to make sure all the caulking is in good condition around all windows and doors. Prevents some drafts, but more importantly pretects against water damage.


It's a newer house. Like less than ten years. 

Somecanuck - I have bell for Internet do they don't charge for a dry loop since you are with them. 

I'm going to have to look into caulk.


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## Top_Spin

MrMatt said:


> What about peelable caulking?
> Or those nice shrink plastic covers.


I thought about the plastic covers but I think it would be an eye sore


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## MoneyGal

We do the shrink plastic - my husband is very very expert at doing a great job at it.


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## somecanuck

Top_Spin said:


> Somecanuck - I have bell for Internet do they don't charge for a dry loop since you are with them.


Yeah.. We're kind of stuck either way though. If I went Bell with FPL (or equivalent), I'd have to pay $60/mo ($44/mo base, $15/mo to bring it up to 145 GB download) to get close to what I get from TekSavvy for $32/mo (300 GB download, same speed) with no contract. And I imagine there's a modem rental fee from Bell.

I could pay the dry loop ($10/mo or so), cut the phone line ($21/mo or so), and put in FPL with my own ATA to save $11/mo. But it feels like a degradation of service for a measly $10/mo, you know?


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## Homerhomer

somecanuck said:


> The faucet is a brilliant idea. My wife is fond of leaving the tap running (on hot water no less) while she walks about the kitchen.
> 
> .


That's my wife's favourite, that and warming up the fridge by leaving the door open while she tends the tap to make sure the water is running


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## Guigz

MoneyGal said:


> We do the shrink plastic - my husband is very very expert at doing a great job at it.


Where do you buy the shrink plastic?

Around here, at Rona, a single sheet of plastic to cover 1 (largish)window is about 15-20$. At this price, I have trouble seeing how I am going to break even, let alone save anything. Can you reuse them?


A few tips of my own:

-Buy or rent the tools (used is great) and learn the trade instead of calling experts for little jobs. I saved gobs of money by learning how to do little electrical (ceiling fans, dimming switches, electrical outlets) and plumbing (working with PEX, installing toilets) jobs.

-Mow your own lawn and shovel your own driveway.

-Say no to door to door salesmen. When they are not trying to defraud you, they offer poor prices or services. 

-Grow a veggie patch. Nothing like homegrown tomatoes and squashes.


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## Plugging Along

I know this looked awful, but I used sarah wrap in my old house. It was really old and drafty, and a rental, so I didn't want to spend the money to seal it, so used plastic wrap. I couldn't open the window for the winter, but it worked (not as well as the real ones).


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## Top_Spin

somecanuck said:


> Yeah.. We're kind of stuck either way though. If I went Bell with FPL (or equivalent), I'd have to pay $60/mo ($44/mo base, $15/mo to bring it up to 145 GB download) to get close to what I get from TekSavvy for $32/mo (300 GB download, same speed) with no contract. And I imagine there's a modem rental fee from Bell.
> 
> I could pay the dry loop ($10/mo or so), cut the phone line ($21/mo or so), and put in FPL with my own ATA to save $11/mo. But it feels like a degradation of service for a measly $10/mo, you know?


Fair enough. I pay $23 a month to bell. Get 11 Mbps and 120 gb. For now this works. 

Good tip on renting tools. I'm planning to install pot lights, but it seems so risky to do it myself. Hmmm


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## Addy

For window film on windows that don't have to look pretty we just use poly with double sided tape. If there's a cheaper source for the real stuff I'd love to know!


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## uptoolate

The 'real' 3M window shrink film can be very non-obtrusive when well applied. It has a very long shelf life and you can often get it at the end of the season at a deep discount. I still have some of the very large sheets that are probably 8 years old that I used with no problem in my mom's house this year.


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## londoncalling

This may be taking things a little far for most of you but I found it interesting none the less.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ple-completely-make-home-reclaimed-goods.html

All the best to you in 2012!

Cheers!


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## Guigz

Addy said:


> For window film on windows that don't have to look pretty we just use poly with double sided tape. If there's a cheaper source for the real stuff I'd love to know!


I had not tought of that. This is a very good idea.

For the "real" shrink plastic, I don't get how you can reuse it since it shrinks when you install it. Do you use a larger piece than you need initially?

Other things:

-replace your fan furnace motor from a gluttonous AC motor to an energy efficient DC model. This saves about 400-700 W/H per hour. Very worthwhile when you use the furnace to recirculate air in the house.

-Put your airc conditioning unit in the shade or plant a tree so that it will be in the shade.


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## carverman

Addy said:


> For window film on windows that don't have to look pretty we just use poly with double sided tape. If there's a cheaper source for the real stuff I'd love to know!


Poly works, but it's hard to see through it..the shrink stuff for windows,
although a lot more expensive, allows you to see through it almost
like glass, if it's stretched tight with a hair dryer.


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## carverman

Guigz said:


> -replace your fan furnace motor from a gluttonous AC motor to an energy efficient DC model. This saves about 400-700 W/H per hour. Very worthwhile when you use the furnace to recirculate air in the house.


I've been thinking along those lines. I have a fan motor that comes
with the fan as an integral direct drive unit..and it's 1/2 horsepower..so it sucks
about 8-10 amps when running. (thats more than a kw I think since 1 hp = 746watts
and 1kw x 1hr = 1kw hour at 10cents per kwh at peak times (not weekends).
An equivalent dc motor running 24/7 would only use as much as a 150watt light bulb
vs
the variable speed 1/2 horsepower AC motor would use as much as a 20 cuft fridge running continuously 24/7

*However, the cost of replacement with a DC fan motor + motor reliabilty is the main factor here...*

Secondly hardly any direct coupled dc fan motors are available for older style gas furnaces..
maybe it's something that hasn't caught on yet. The other thing with dc motors is brush
wear...so they don't have the same reliability that A/C induction style motors have..that
will run for years and years with requiring any maintenance.

http://www.frentzandsons.com/Hardware References/ampdrawofelectricmotors.htm


> -Put your airc conditioning unit in the shade or plant a tree so that it will be in the shade.


I got a silver dogwood bush shading mine..but that's about all you can do
with those things..except set the inside temperature a lot higher so it
runs less during peak hours and more on off peak.
Closing blinds helps..also any reflective foil on windows facing the sun
during the hottes part of the day..I use the reflector side of a auto
windshield folding shade.


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## hystat

Guigz said:


> -replace your fan furnace motor from a gluttonous AC motor to an energy efficient DC model. This saves about 400-700 W/H per hour. Very worthwhile when you use the furnace to recirculate air in the house.


that is just all wrong...
my cheapie AC furnace fan motor is 89.5% efficient.... and it only uses 275 watts...
how much more efficient could a DC motor be? that makes no sense to me that rectifying AC into DC would increase efficiency.
Ironically, *any efficiency deficit in any type of electric motor is released as heat
*
might be some savings in the summer when running the AC, but I doubt it would ever pay for itself as an upgrade.

my advice is to not fall for any energy efficient upgrades unless you do the math yourself and it makes sense to you


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## Addy

Addy said:


> *For window film on windows that don't have to look pretty* we just use poly with double sided tape. If there's a cheaper source for the real stuff I'd love to know!






carverman said:


> Poly works, but it's hard to see through it..the shrink stuff for windows,
> although a lot more expensive, allows you to see through it almost
> like glass, if it's stretched tight with a hair dryer.


Ummm... yes, I know. Perhaps try reading my posts before replying to them?


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## hystat

carverman said:


> I've been thinking along those lines. I have a fan motor that comes
> with the fan as an integral direct drive unit..and it's 1/2 horsepower..so it sucks
> about 8-10 amps when running. (thats more than a kw I think since 1 hp = 746watts
> and 1kw x 1hr = 1kw hour at 10cents per kwh at peak times (not weekends).
> An equivalent dc motor running 24/7 would only use as much as a 150watt light bulb
> vs
> the variable speed 1/2 horsepower AC motor would use as much as a 20 cuft fridge running continuously 24/7


first of all. 1/2 hp is 373w, which is not more than a kw...

10 amps would be the draw of a 1200W appliance, not a 373w motor

your 373w motor draws about 3 amps


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## carverman

hystat said:


> first of all. 1/2 hp is 373w, which is not more than a kw...


Yes, you are right..it's my mind playing tricks on me again.


> your 373w motor draws about 3 amps


That would be continuous operation. 300watts or so of power consumption meanst
that the furnace fan would consume 0.3kwh each hour it runs..hardly worth even
thinking about any DC motor retrofit..even if they were readily available..which
they are not. However, fan motor start up requires more current to get the fan rotating.


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## Guigz

hystat said:


> that is just all wrong...
> my cheapie AC furnace fan motor is 89.5% efficient.... and it only uses 275 watts...
> how much more efficient could a DC motor be? that makes no sense to me that rectifying AC into DC would increase efficiency.
> Ironically, *any efficiency deficit in any type of electric motor is released as heat
> *
> might be some savings in the summer when running the AC, but I doubt it would ever pay for itself as an upgrade.
> 
> my advice is to not fall for any energy efficient upgrades unless you do the math yourself and it makes sense to you


Well, according to CMHC, this is not all wrong. Here is a direct snip from their website:

"Furnace Circulating Fan Choices
Most furnace circulating fans consume high amounts of electricity (300 – 700 watts). If you will be using your furnace circulating fan to move ventilation air around the house (for instance, if you have a heat recovery ventilator connected to it, or a high-efficiency air cleaner on the furnace), then look at upgrading the circulating fan to a high-efficiency DC motor. The best furnace fans now will use less than 100 W on low speed. This will result in considerable electrical savings over the life of the furnace."

In your case, if you were to switch to a 100W fan, you would save at least 175W/H per hour. 

I agree with you that the excess energy of the motor is heat lost in the system. However, it is less expensive to heat using gas than electricity on a BTU/$ basis. Running the fan 12H per day with the HRV would make quite a difference at the end of the month.

Maybe in your situation, this is not very worthwhile, but it does not take very much for this to make economical sense. Keep in mind that, during the summer, you are saving closer to 350W/H per hour to account for the fact that your blower is heating the air that is cooled by your AC.


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## hystat

Guigz said:


> In your case, if you were to switch to a 100W fan, you would save at least 175W/H per hour.


I think in the name of frugality, shutting the fan off would be easier. I doubt that such a retrofit would ever pay for itself. 
A couple of duct booster fans will actually circulate the air around the house just fine. Can get them for about $30 each on eBay. 


Guigz said:


> I agree with you that the excess energy of the motor is heat lost in the system. However, it is less expensive to heat using gas than electricity on a BTU/$ basis.


that is not true for all of Canada, and again... rectifying AC to DC releases a lot of heat from the diodes


Guigz said:


> Maybe in your situation, this is not very worthwhile, but it does not take very much for this to make economical sense. Keep in mind that, during the summer, you are saving closer to 350W/H per hour to account for the fact that your blower is heating the air that is cooled by your AC.


no, you cannot slow the fan down when the AC is on. the evaporator will freeze up. 
It makes no economical sense to me unless the equipment was given to me for free. 
This is a good demonstration of the traps homeowners can fall for. I see people ripping out perfectly good water heaters to install tankless. This thread wasn't started as a discussion about how to have the most energy efficient home. It was started to ask how to save $$.


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## MoneyGal

hystat said:


> I tI see people ripping out perfectly good water heaters to install tankless. This thread wasn't started as a discussion about how to have the most energy efficient home. It was started to ask how to save $$.


Great point. The single worst / best example of this (in my view) is the $600 vacuum. I AM SURE that $600 vacuums perform "better" than my $100 cheapie. But guess what? I sweep every day, and vacuum every few days. Does a house with a $600 vacuum have "less dust" than mine or require less frequent vacuuming? How MUCH better is a $600 vacuum than my $20 broom? Is it fully 30x more effective?


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## carverman

hystat said:


> that is just all wrong...
> my cheapie AC furnace fan motor is 89.5% efficient.... and it only uses 275 watts...
> how much more efficient could a DC motor be? that makes no sense to me that rectifying AC into DC would increase efficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> You simply can't rectify a/c into Dc through a diode bridge...that is the
> easy part..because DC is a static voltage (unlike alternating ac), you
> need two brushes at least and a commutator to access the winding to
> create the electromagnetic effect..and that requires a different kind
> of motor.
> 
> A permanent magnet motor is much more efficient energy wise, but
> these are not available for furnace applications.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ironically, *any efficiency deficit in any type of electric motor is released as heat
> *
> might be some savings in the summer when running the AC, but I doubt it would ever pay for itself as an upgrade.
> my advice is to not fall for any energy efficient upgrades unless you do the math yourself and it makes sense to you
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't fall for any upgrades because of cost of the upgrade, installation
> cost and any problems with it that I don't have now...my Miller/Nordyne
> mid-efficiency gas furnace has been running trouble free (except for a
> relay track on the PC board to the fan motor that I fixed myself) and
> I intend to keep it that way..."if it aint broke..don't fix it!"
> 
> I haven't had to pay for yearly maintenance plans for the last 16 years
> so I've saved myself several hundred dollars in the process. My next
> door neighbor has one of these condensing high tech furnaces (Lennox)
> and I see the service guys come over to fix it once or twice a year!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## carverman

hystat said:


> I think in the name of frugality, shutting the fan off would be easier. I doubt that such a retrofit would ever pay for itself.
> A couple of duct booster fans will actually circulate the air around the house just fine. Can get them for about $30 each on eBay.


Makes good sense when you're trying to balance the heating ducts.



> that is not true for all of Canada, and again... rectifying AC to DC releases a lot of heat from the diodes



Even without consideration of the heat released by the diode..an induction style AC motor will
DO NOTHING if the dc is applied..besides blow a breaker! The windings are
different between an AC motor and a DC motor.



> This is a good demonstration of the traps homeowners can fall for. I see people ripping out perfectly good water heaters to install tankless. This thread wasn't started as a discussion about how to have the most energy efficient home. It was started to ask how to save $$.


Getting on the tankless bandwagon is not an energy saving nor a economical
way to get hot water.

First of all the installation of a tankless requires different plumbing.
The water flow has to meet certain criteria for it to work efficiently..
which is not a requirement for a standard water heater.
and last of all..it's not instant hot water..you still have to run a few seconds
of water down the drain in order to purge the cool water out of the household
pipes in the wall


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## carverman

MoneyGal said:


> Great point. The single worst / best example of this (in my view) is the $600 vacuum. I AM SURE that $600 vacuums perform "better" than my $100 cheapie. But guess what? I sweep every day, and vacuum every few days. Does a house with a $600 vacuum have "less dust" than mine or require less frequent vacuuming? How MUCH better is a $600 vacuum than my $20 broom? Is it fully 30x more effective?


IMO, you can do the vacumning with a $100 or $600..the difference
is some useless features on the $600 and it may have a bit more suction,
but then it will use more electricity too.


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## Guigz

hystat said:


> I think in the name of frugality, shutting the fan off would be easier. I doubt that such a retrofit would ever pay for itself.
> A couple of duct booster fans will actually circulate the air around the house just fine.
> 
> This is a good demonstration of the traps homeowners can fall for. I see people ripping out perfectly good water heaters to install tankless. This thread wasn't started as a discussion about how to have the most energy efficient home. It was started to ask how to save $$.


Saving energy *is* saving $.

Shutting the fan does not recirculate the air in your house now does it? People with HRV or ERV can easily run their fan 12-24 hours a day during the winter. Having an energy efficient fan is highly significant for them.

According to pelletheat.org, a million BTU of heating with a 92% efficient furnace costs about 14$ (at 1.36$ per therm, I actually pay 1.08$ per therm) while the same costs 35$ in electricity at 12 cents / Kwh and 100% efficiency.

You misunderstood what I said about the AC. If you say that the heat that is generated by the inefficient motor is free heating in the winter, you have to admit that this "free heat" needs to be removed in the summer (hence the x2). 

I did the math, for my situation, the payback is about 4 years for such a modification...


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## hystat

Guigz said:


> Saving energy *is* saving $.


a Chevy Volt would be the best selling car if that were the case... luckily, judging by hybrid and electric car sales, people are smarter than that
In general, the total opposite is generally true more often than not
Typically, the cost an efficiency upgrade is NEVER realized as a savings. This fallacy is compounded when people finance such upgrades and then miss out on using the payback funds to invest in actual investments.

exceptions are common sense things like throwing batts of insulation in the attic and plastic on drafty windows



Guigz said:


> Shutting the fan does not recirculate the air in your house now does it? People with HRV or ERV can easily run their fan 12-24 hours a day during the winter. Having an energy efficient fan is highly significant for them.


the OP didn't say anything about having an ERV that I recall.. my HRV has it's own fan - the circ fan in the furnace does not need to be on. I have two duct boosters that run when the HRV runs. They are 50watts each. 
Many HRV or ERV systems use separate ducting and do not tie into the furnace ductwork at all. The HRV fan does all the circulation. 


Guigz said:


> You misunderstood what I said about the AC. If you say that the heat that is generated by the inefficient motor is free heating in the winter, you have to admit that this "free heat" needs to be removed in the summer (hence the x2).


it is you that does not understand this technology you are introducing
AC fan uses 375 watts on high
DC fan uses 375 watts on high
There is no savings if the fan is on high in the summer. And it is. *You can't slow the fan down when the AC is on. *

If you have a furnace designed to run with the fan on high, it would be unsafe to slow it down when the burner is heating. 

I suggest anyone reading this thread consult a licensed contractor before making any HVAC modifications. Changing a circulation fan speed can result in damaged equipment or a house fire.

If you are shopping for a new furnace, then you might want to consider a multistage unit which will be quieter and may use a little less electricity to circulate the air, but the AC system will still run the fan on high. You need 400cfm across an evaporator while it is operating. 
If you are striving for small carbon footprint or whatever the direction of this thread is heading, then do not equip your house with AC. That will result in a huge savings.


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## Guigz

Well it seems that you know more about furnace fans than my HVAC guy and the CMHC combined. 

Either way, the OP was asking for tips, nobody is forcing these tips to people that don't believe in them.


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## hystat

probably, I am HRAI SkillTech certified. I have done a lot of HVAC training - not residential, mostly mobile in the refrigeration and heavy equipment realm, but I also teach electrical courses dealing with AC and DC systems. 
My experience with home HVAC contractors, is that there is a widening skills gap, like most trades. (the guy that installed my furnace, caused and electrical fire that almost burnt my house down)
The technology being introduced is outpacing the industry's ability to attract, recruit, retain and educate a competent workforce.


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## Guigz

To clarify: a DC motor will save energy compared to a AC motor *when it is not running at full speed*? 

If this is so, then yes, it probably takes a lot longer to break even. And indeed, you would not save energy in the summer using the AC. I am not stupid, this is just not the information that was given to me by my hvac guy initially. Also, why would CMHC specifically recommend going for this motor choice due to its putative efficiency if there is little benefit? 

You mention that your HRV has a fan of its own, is this so for all air exchangers? I have a cheapo Venmar and I feel compelled to use the furnace fan in conjunction with the exchanger since I do not feel any air coming out of the ducts with only the exchanger on.

Another question about home energy efficiency:

You also mention adding batts of insulation to your attic as being worthwhile. What about going from r-40 to r-60? From a report I was reading, this resulted in very little savings over time (compared to r-12 to r-40).


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## hystat

Residential HVAC guys get commissions for upselling.
You have taken the CMHC info out of context. The quotes regarding DC low speed fans are from a CMHC page discussing choices and options for *replacing *a furnace (that NEEDS replacing), not for modifying an existing, properly functioning unit.

with insulation, I recently went from having no insulation over my attached garage to R-32 (I think)
For me, it was a no brainer to just stick my head up there and look at the situation. I insulated the outside walls of the garage and the ceiling above and it has made the whole north side of the house feel more comfortable. 
I don't know what climate would benefit from >R40, but Canada definitely has some areas where that would be wise. Geography has a lot to do with insulation requirements.


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## carverman

hystat said:


> *The technology being introduced is outpacing the industry's ability to attract, recruit, retain and educate a competent workforce.*


Ain't that the truth! Just look at the gov't retraining prgms for out of work
people that decide to take a computer repair/programming course. They
may graduate, but they really don't know how to troubleshoot or to program
a computer ,other than the theoretical knowledge from the gov't manpower
courses that put them there in the first place! 

Years ago, there was something called an apprenticeship...now they just
turn them out on an unsuspecting public.


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## carverman

Guigz said:


> To clarify: a *DC motor will save energy compared to a AC *motor *when it is not running at full speed*?


I'm interested in that too...AFAIK, power is power ..ohms law applies
P= ExI...so unless the motor has some kind of capacitor storage ..it will
still consume power running at any speed. 

Similarly AC motors where power factors apply..
a motor that draws 6 amps at 120v uses 720 watts
a motor that draws 3 amps at 240v still uses 720watts
Power = E (volts) x I )current)
The universal series wound motor (with a commutator) would lend itself
to furnace fan duty as it is capable of being electronically speed controlled
and saving some energy there. 

from wiki...
*An advantage of the universal motor is that AC supplies may be used on motors which have some characteristics more common in DC motors,* specifically high starting torque and very compact design if high running speeds are used. The *negative aspect is the maintenance and short life problems caused by the commutator*. Such motors are used in devices such as food mixers and power tools which are used only intermittently, and often have high starting-torque demands. Continuous speed control of a universal motor running on AC is easily obtained by use of a thyristor circuit, while multiple taps on the field coil provide (imprecise) stepped speed control. Household blenders that advertise many speeds frequently combine a field coil with several taps and a diode that can be inserted in series with the motor (causing the motor to run on half-wave rectified AC). "


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## Guigz

carverman said:


> I'm interested in that too...AFAIK, power is power ..ohms law applies
> "


I suspect that, if one were to change one's furnace fan blower motor, one might go with a more efficient model, not just the exact same motor in DC flavor. Therefore, savings would not just be due to lower fan speed.

That is, unless furnace fans have not improved in efficiency in the last several years.


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## hystat

Planting deciduous trees on the south side of a house provides shade in the summer, then full sun in the winter when the leaves are off. 

Conifers to the north can break a cold wind.

but that's long term thinking if starting with saplings


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## carverman

Guigz said:


> I suspect that, if one were to change one's furnace fan blower motor, *one might go with a more efficient model, not just the exact same motor in DC flavor. Therefore, savings would not just be due to lower fan speed.
> *
> That is, unless furnace fans have not improved in efficiency in the last several years.


I agree with what you are saying in principle Guigz, but the fact remains that very few of these new style more efficient fans are available as direct replacements to older gas furnaces.
On my Miller/Nordyne mid efficiency (and very reliable after 16 years, I might add), it has a vent motor (fractional ac induction style) and a larger direct drive fan (1/2 hp). There are fan speed taps on the area of the control board
where the fan motor plugs into the board. The fan motor is controlled by a relay which is controlled in turn by heat sensor(s). 

Changing a squirrel cage style fan with direct drive (intergral) motor limits the possibilities from an energy efficiency POV, and the other factor is A/C cooling in the summer, where the fan really needs to run on high when the outside compressor kicks in. Unless I wire in a SPDT switch labelled summer/winter...switching speed taps on the furnace control board isn't
that convenient to save energy when the fan motor is running.

I checked a few online aftermarket places and there doesn't seem to be series wound DC motors available for older style furnaces. Maybe they are starting to use them NOW in the newer high tech gas furnaces..but I'm
not about to spend several thousand replacing a perfectly good and RELIABLE furnace with a high tech/micro controller/sensors... yada yada (expensive parts!) condensing furnace that I WOULD need to have a maintenance plan on.


----------



## carverman

hystat said:


> Planting deciduous trees on the s*outh side of a house provides shade in the summer*, then full sun in the winter when the leaves are off.
> 
> Conifers to the north can break a cold wind.
> 
> *but that's long term thinking if starting with sapling*s


That's 20 years+ before the trees are big enough to provide any adequate
shade..I haven't got that long to wait.
Fortunately, as it turned out, I have a large mature maple tree in my back
yard that partially shades the s/w side of my house from the summer sun
and a city Norway maple (a huge tree that dumps tons of leaves) to shade
the front N/W corner..I have a semi attached, so I don't worry about
the eastern side of the house..just 3 walls.


----------



## hystat

plant something like a Russian Olive... you can have a very big tree in 6 to 8 years


----------



## somecanuck

MoneyGal said:


> Great point. The single worst / best example of this (in my view) is the $600 vacuum. I AM SURE that $600 vacuums perform "better" than my $100 cheapie. But guess what? I sweep every day, and vacuum every few days. Does a house with a $600 vacuum have "less dust" than mine or require less frequent vacuuming? How MUCH better is a $600 vacuum than my $20 broom? Is it fully 30x more effective?


You just need to work it better. We purchased a $750 vacuum and managed to swing deals to get it at 45% off ($337.50). We had our previous vacuum ($200) for around 8 years but it cost up to $30 to replace the filters each time, if you could find them. The new one is better in every way, and has lifetime filters. Win!


----------



## MrMatt

carverman said:


> That's 20 years+ before the trees are big enough to provide any adequate
> shade..I haven't got that long to wait.
> Fortunately, as it turned out, I have a large mature maple tree in my back
> yard that partially shades the s/w side of my house from the summer sun
> and a city Norway maple (a huge tree that dumps tons of leaves) to shade
> the front N/W corner..I have a semi attached, so I don't worry about
> the eastern side of the house..just 3 walls.


Get fast growing trees. Some hit decent sizes in just a few years. 
My childhood 4' xmas tree turned into a 30'+ monster by the time I finished HS.


----------



## Guigz

hystat said:


> no, you cannot slow the fan down when the AC is on. the evaporator will freeze up.


Sorry to repeat, but I found the following quote on the NRCan website:

"High-Efficiency Variable-Speed Blower Motors
It is a common practice to run the furnace fan continuously at low speed to improve the comfort of residents. In many parts of Canada, homeowners often install central air-conditioning systems that utilize the furnace blower. However, a constantly running fan dramatically increases annual electrical consumption by the furnace beyond levels consumed by the traditional demand-only mode of operation during the heating season.

The standard type of alternating current (AC) motor used in most furnaces – the four-speed permanent split capacitor (PSC) type – is not the most energy efficient, particularly when operated at low speeds. Many furnaces now use high-efficiency, variable-speed, brushless direct current (DC) motors. When used continuously, a high-efficiency motor uses less than one third of the electricity consumed by a standard motor and eventually pays for itself in reduced electrical bills.

The electrical savings from a furnace equipped with a high-efficiency motor will be offset somewhat by the extra heat that the furnace must supply. *However, when central air conditioning is used, the high-efficiency fan-blower motor will provide additional savings since the heat from the inefficient motor no longer needs to be cooled*."

I bolded the important part. Why are they saying that the efficient DC will save *additional* energy in the summer with the AC on when compared to a furnace with an AC fan motor?

I thought that you said that the DC motor would consume as much energy (as the AC motor) in the summer when the AC was on?


----------



## hystat

http://www.hvacoracle.com/service/ac/evap_freeze.shtml

_The AC requires a minimum of 400 CFM per ton of refrigeration, less then this will reduce the evaporator temperature and can cause the unit to freeze. _

you can find the actual cfm spec for your AC system in the installation manual that came with it. 400 is pretty typical as a minimum flow requirement. 
To get 400, you are running the fan full speed. 

Also, most people's AC ducts are at the floor, and cold air does not rise. You want some serious flow to stir hot air back to the return ducts or your house will feel musty and gross all summer.

The real trick to efficiency with AC, is to properly size the unit for full fan speeds, not to slow the fan down.


----------



## hystat

Proper AC sizing:

Some people have efficient AC systems that make the house feel cool without lowering the temperature. How is that possible?
It has to do humidity. 

A properly sized system will dehumidify the air in your house. By circulating the air across the evaporator coil, humidity (including your perspiration) will condense on the cold fins and run out the drain. 

If an AC unit is oversized, the unit will come on, lower the indoor temp, and shut off again, leaving you with a cold, musty, clammy house. 

If you are ever put on the fence between a 1 ton or 1.5 ton or 2 ton unit etc., always err on the side of a smaller size. It will run longer, but draw less power while running, and in conjunction with you fan, will dehumidify the air and make the house more comfortable.


----------



## Guigz

hystat said:


> http://www.hvacoracle.com/service/ac/evap_freeze.shtml
> 
> _The AC requires a minimum of 400 CFM per ton of refrigeration, less then this will reduce the evaporator temperature and can cause the unit to freeze. _
> 
> you can find the actual cfm spec for your AC system in the installation manual that came with it. 400 is pretty typical as a minimum flow requirement.
> To get 400, you are running the fan full speed.
> 
> Also, most people's AC ducts are at the floor, and cold air does not rise. You want some serious flow to stir hot air back to the return ducts or your house will feel musty and gross all summer.
> 
> The real trick to efficiency with AC, is to properly size the unit for full fan speeds, not to slow the fan down.


I understand what you are saying but the fact remains that a fan that is more efficient overall (i.e., less watts/h/CFM produced ) will save even more money in the summer with the AC on.


----------



## hystat

Guigz said:


> I understand what you are saying but the fact remains that a fan that is more efficient overall (i.e., less watts/h/CFM produced ) will save even more money in the summer with the AC on.


The power coming into your home is AC. The most efficient way to use it is to leave it as AC, and power an AC motor. 

You can get more efficiency if you spend more, but the efficiency difference between a crappy motor and a great one is marginal. Even crappy AC motors are pretty darn efficient. 

I doubt you would ever notice it on your hydro bill.


----------



## hystat

what would make for some hurt on the hydro bill, again, is an oversized AC system. Not only would you lack dehumidification, but a 2.5 ton system is going to require double the cfm of a 1.25 ton system. 
So you need larger ductwork, bigger hp circ fan motor. And if you do have a single speed system like most Canadians, that extra cfm will be pushed in the winter when the heat is on, and heat does rise so the airflow may not be required. 

This is where modern multi stage systems are much quieter and more comfortable, and efficient, but the up front cost of the equipment still would never be realized in energy savings if one is ripping out healthy equipment for the sake of upgrades. 
If someone needs a new furnace or is building a new home, the higher tech units are worth investigating. However, I think the next issue would be the skillset required to spec., install and service/troubleshoot these complex systems. 

I don't think the HVAC industry has the personnel to make it work correctly most of the time. I would tend to stick to something simple; what the industry is familiar with already.


----------



## Guigz

hystat said:


> You can get more efficiency if you spend more, but the efficiency difference between a crappy motor and a great one is marginal. Even crappy AC motors are pretty darn efficient.


Could you provide a source to backup this affirmation(e.g., a comparison between different blower models in AC and DC flavor)?I don't think CMHC and NRCan would specifically recommend going with a DC motor furnace fan if it was only slightly more efficient. 

My 1/3 HP direct drive furnace blower motor uses 696 watts when it is functioning. Is this efficient?


----------



## hystat

Guigz said:


> My 1/3 HP direct drive furnace blower motor uses 696 watts when it is functioning. Is this efficient?


696 watts is not an efficiency, it's how much power the motor is consuming. Efficiency depends on how much power you get out vs. power going in to a device.
If you are moving 2000 cfm, then you are setting records for efficiency. If you are moving 250cfm, then it sucks. 
How and where are you measuring that wattage?

700W for a 1/3HP motor sounds a bit high. Keep in mind, the shaft output power is load induced. 1/3HP output is an "estimate" If you remove the squirrel cage, it will be working at about 1/10th power. Attach it to restrictive, undersized ductwork with a neglected filter and you can probably pull over 1 HP out of it, but it will be overloaded to the point of overheat. 
(I have a 5HP motor at work that I routinely pull 13.5HP out of in one of my lessons. It smells like melting crayons and then pops the three phase 20A breaker. At the point the breaker trips, we are pulling about 55A per phase. One objective of the lesson is to learn what it takes to trip a CB when you put the load on slowly and gradually.) 

Remove the filter while measuring and see how much difference. You might want to try a different brand of filter. Or try opening some registers or air balance dampers. Always make the changes that cost nothing first. 

Here's a link to a forum where residential HVAC pros are discussing the type of motor conversion you are proposing. 
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/archive/index.php/t-478782.html
Some key quotes:
_"Depending on duct system. may not save anything. "
"If you have to run a PSC on high to over come the duct systems static pressure.
Then an ECM motor won't save anything. Will cost more."
"this motor is supposed to save 100 watts continuously? That would be 878 KWH in a year, at 10 cents/kwh he will save $88. Will this work for the homeowner's stated goal of saving energy/money? *Seems like the payback would be better by changing light bulbs or something.*"
_

I don't think I have any more of a point to make about furnace fans. 

I suppose if someone wants to sell me a furnace fan upgrade, here's the deal I would offer to the supplier:
I'll wire my Kill-A-Watt to that fan circuit for 1 month before and 1 month after the swap. If the savings show better than a 3 year payback, I will pay for the work. After that, I'll pay on a sliding scale. If it shows higher consumption after conversion, contractor will remove it and reinstall my original unit for free and pay me $250 for my time.


----------



## carverman

hystat said:


> Proper AC sizing:
> 
> If you are ever put on the fence between a 1 ton or 1.5 ton or 2 ton unit etc., always err on the side of a smaller size. I*t will run longer, but draw less power while running,* and in conjunction with you fan, will dehumidify the air and make the house more comfortable.


Howz that? An a/c compressor even on 220v draws substantial power when running..
the longer it runs the more KWH it consumes and the more power consumption will be reflected on your power bill. 

While proper sizing of the A/C unit is important, my A/C tech who installed my replacement A/C unit last summer
mentioned that the A-Coil inside is the key. The more capacity it has to remove heat/humidity, the more efficient
the system is..and he replaced the old A-Coil with a new type that has an extra row of pipes/fins to absorb
more heat and drain off the condensate faster.


----------



## carverman

hystat said:


> I suppose if someone wants to sell me a furnace fan upgrade, here's the deal I would offer to the supplier:
> 
> *I'll wire my Kill-A-Watt to that fan circuit for 1 month before and 1 month after the swap. If the savings show better than a 3 year payback, I will pay for the work*. After that, I'll pay on a sliding scale. If it shows higher consumption after conversion, contractor will remove it and reinstall my original unit for free and pay me $250 for my time.


Good luck with that. The way I see it is that the parts cost and labour cost, far outstrip any significant savings in any different furnace fan scheme.

The standard induction motor direct drive fan is about as efficient as you are going to see for a long time....any other furnance fan scheme requires more complexity, and possiblility of less reliablity.

The induction motor, has a laminated core rotor and 2 or 4 shaded pole windings...it's simple and it's reliable. 
You can't just rectiify AC and try to run an induction motor from rectified AC..it won't work...I won't
get into that explanation here.

Brushless DC motors are the solution..but so far these are not available in the larger sizes that high CFM furnace fans require to push a large volume of air down a lengthy plenum in the basement and out to the room vents. 

DC motors with brushes will have sparking when the brush and commutator wear is apparent. 
Unlike an AC motor that can run for years and years trouble free, (unless a bearing failure occurs), the DC motor while slightly
more efficient energy wise..still has to move a fan and the resistance of the air in the furnace duct work..and may require periodic maitenance inspections. DC motors also require speed control/limiter as they can continue to spin
at much higher rpms, if left unregulated, so this requires another speed control to be installed on the furnace as well,
this gets expensive for any kind of retrofit..unless the furnace is designed with dc motors right from the manufacturer.


----------



## Guigz

I see. Thanks to both of you for the clarifications. 

It is difficult for the general public to make the right choices when the information that is available requires HVAC certification to make out tail from head.

If I may reformulate my tip:

- If your furnace needs replacing, go for the most efficient model, with the features that you need and, given a choice, select the one with the smallest power consumption given similar air displacement.


----------



## carverman

Guigz said:


> I see. Thanks to both of you for the clarifications.
> 
> It is difficult for the general public to make the right choices when the information that is available requires HVAC certification to make out tail from head.
> 
> If I may reformulate my tip:
> 
> - If your furnace needs replacing, go for the most efficient model, with the features that you need and, given a choice, select the one with the smallest power consumption given similar air displacement.


Excellent statement. My furnace a mid efficiency unit (Miller/Nordyne) is about 85,000 btu and as efficient as I'm going to get for the money I paid for it 16 years ago. 

However. I might add that similar to the A/C unit, you need to select the proper btu output for the square footage of
the house. The longer the heat cycles, the more efficiency you get out of the unit, since the heat exchanger is
prewarmed on the long heat cycles..and more air is exchanged between the heating ducts and cold air returns,
so the house feels warmer and the room thermostat can even be reduced 1 or 2 degrees on longer heat cycles. 

While there have been advances in furnace technology in the last 15 years, that technology isn't without it's own set of problems. My neighbour on the other side of a common wall. eliminated a chimney that ran in the the kitchen wall to expand their kitchen and went for a high tech condensation gas furnace (Lennox). They must have a maintenance plan for it as I see the gas technician's van there 2-3 times a year...sometimes on an emergency call...circuit board replaced, sensors replaced and so on.

Yes, it may be 90% efficient in extracting that last bit of heat compared to my 80% efficient venter motor/chimney flue style furnace..but as far as reliability..I'll take mine any day.

In the 16 years since I've owned it..it has NOT required even one part and has paid for itself..(I think). 
I've never had the need for a $150 per year service contract for it ... (thats $2250 I saved taking a chance and
not bothering with a service contract)! I vacumn and oil the sleeve bearings on the ventor motor myself and wash
out the reusuable air filter...so the bit of extra energy the 1/2 horsepower blower fan uses...is a very minor expense.


----------



## hystat

carverman said:


> Howz that? An a/c compressor even on 220v draws substantial power when running..
> the longer it runs the more KWH it consumes and the more power consumption will be reflected on your power bill.


but a 1 ton unit uses ~half the power a 2 ton uses. A 1 ton unit has a smaller compressor motor, smaller condenser fan motor, etc. so it uses less power per unit of time it runs. 

A larger A coil might fit your ductwork better which is fine, but larger is not always better. If you cool the house too fast, your thermostat shuts everything off and you didn't give the system a chance to dehumidify.


----------



## rookie

can you guys recommend a shrink film and where to buy it from. the HD ones seemed too pricey. not sure where to buy the 3M ones in canada.


----------



## Addy

If you are due to replace a furnace, consider things such as supply costs... when we were in Manitoba it would have been far cheaper for us to have an electric furnace installed due to the high supply costs for natural gas. The supply costs were either always or almost always more expensive than our actual consumption. And in MB hydro is very very cheap.


----------



## somecanuck

Addy said:


> If you are due to replace a furnace, consider things such as supply costs... when we were in Manitoba it would have been far cheaper for us to have an electric furnace installed due to the high supply costs for natural gas. The supply costs were either always or almost always more expensive than our actual consumption. And in MB hydro is very very cheap.


Good point. The majority of our electrical, natural gas, and water bills are the minimum monthly charges.


----------



## carverman

hystat said:


> but a 1 ton unit uses ~half the power a 2 ton uses. A 1 ton unit has a smaller compressor motor, smaller condenser fan motor, etc. so it uses less power per unit of time it runs.
> 
> A larger A coil might fit your ductwork better which is fine, but larger is not always better. If you cool the house too fast, your thermostat shuts everything off and you didn't give the system a chance to dehumidify.


I was with him when he installed the A-coil. It is not physically larger, just has some extra copper tubing. 
The humid room air pushed through it by the furnace fan condenses on the cold coil and drains off on a drain tube..it
appears to be working very well. He is an established A/C tech that has been in business for over 25 years and can tell you which system is junk (a lot of the old names are now), and which ones are good. 

He installed a new Keeprite system with new copper high side and return tubing as he mentioned that any of
the old R22 residual oil in the original copper lines could ruin the new style compressor (R410a)which has a different refrigerant spec and running at much higher pressures.


----------



## hystat

rookie said:


> can you guys recommend a shrink film and where to buy it from. the HD ones seemed too pricey. not sure where to buy the 3M ones in canada.


I have a roll of Comfort Plus Premium insulating film made by RCR 
I can't recall where I got it, but it works very well. Probably Canadian Tire or Rona.


----------



## rookie

i can see this in the canadian tire website. is this good?? can i use it from the inside?


----------



## hystat

rookie said:


> i can see this in the canadian tire website. is this good?? can i use it from the inside?


you only use it inside. works great.


----------



## Pigzfly

Apparently these things are quite effective:
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/electrical-outlet-and-switch-insulator/941520

They're the foam outlet insulator sheets. I'm not sure how many are in that pack I linked to, but my guess is 10 or so. I remember them being quite cheap. They are most important when installed on exterior walls. I remember changing the plugs when we renovated our family room as a kid and feeling the draft come through while the plate was off, that was in a house built in the 80s. I'm not sure what the return on them is, but it's got to help and isn't much of an outlay.

This article says 2-5% of a home's energy is lost through electrical outlets.
http://www.conservationmart.com/blo...l-outlet-insulation-for-quick-energy-savings/
It may not be a perfect insulating method, but they sure help.
Apparently when buying in bulk online, the foam pads can get down to 10 cents each.


----------



## RoR

We made a big difference in the bedroom over the garage by insulating the garage door. 3-4 degree difference easy. 

And, I would argue that some expensive vacuumes do work better. I love my Dyson and would buy another if this one broke. We're on year 4.5 with it, no issues. My sister vacuumed her house with her decent vacuume, then my Mom brought her vacuume over right after and it picked up A LOT more dirt, cat hair, etc. It was surprising what was in the canister. 

We vacuume the main floor almost every other day and it picks up a lot. Kids are messy.


----------



## londoncalling

Pigzfly said:


> Apparently these things are quite effective:
> http://www.homedepot.ca/product/electrical-outlet-and-switch-insulator/941520
> 
> They're the foam outlet insulator sheets. I'm not sure how many are in that pack I linked to, but my guess is 10 or so. I remember them being quite cheap. They are most important when installed on exterior walls. I remember changing the plugs when we renovated our family room as a kid and feeling the draft come through while the plate was off, that was in a house built in the 80s. I'm not sure what the return on them is, but it's got to help and isn't much of an outlay.
> 
> This article says 2-5% of a home's energy is lost through electrical outlets.
> http://www.conservationmart.com/blo...l-outlet-insulation-for-quick-energy-savings/
> It may not be a perfect insulating method, but they sure help.
> Apparently when buying in bulk online, the foam pads can get down to 10 cents each.


I would peg it closer to 2% depending on air vapour barrier, R/RSI value of walls, attic and perimeter floor joists, age of home, weather stripping on doors etc... That being said. They are a cheap, easy, and excellent way to save on heat loss... any penetrations (exhaust fans, door and window openings, attic accesses) should be sealed to prevent heat loss. It's unreal how much difference a good building envelope can save on costs of heating/cooling.


Cheers


----------



## Top_Spin

Pigzfly said:


> Apparently these things are quite effective:
> http://www.homedepot.ca/product/electrical-outlet-and-switch-insulator/941520
> 
> They're the foam outlet insulator sheets. I'm not sure how many are in that pack I linked to, but my guess is 10 or so. I remember them being quite cheap. They are most important when installed on exterior walls. I remember changing the plugs when we renovated our family room as a kid and feeling the draft come through while the plate was off, that was in a house built in the 80s. I'm not sure what the return on them is, but it's got to help and isn't much of an outlay.
> 
> This article says 2-5% of a home's energy is lost through electrical outlets.
> http://www.conservationmart.com/blo...l-outlet-insulation-for-quick-energy-savings/
> It may not be a perfect insulating method, but they sure help.
> Apparently when buying in bulk online, the foam pads can get down to 10 cents each.


Very cool. Thanks for sharing. Now that I think about my rooms on outside walls tend to be a bit cooler than other rooms. I wonder if this is the reason. Hmmmm...


----------



## donald

huh?i agree vapour barrier is extreamly important for energy savings in a house but those electrical sheets are marginal.Every electrical box is fastened to the side of each stud flush to frame(interior or exterior wall)exterior walls are 2x6s and electrical boxs are only 3 1/2 inches deep,they have vapour barrier jackets surrounding the back side of the box along with insulation packed behind it(air tight)there is no flow thru air that can get past the jacket/box let alone the bats of insulation, and the socket holes them selfs leads to the insulated wires........those are gimicks....you were feeling a draft from poor insulation not from the boxes themselfs just felt like it was,this is m.o(high chance guess) covers and elec plates are not insulator devices.goggle a diagram of a typical wall and you will see.(a typical home)

I got insomnia.ha.....the biggest heat loss is windows,if you don't have high energy efficient windows there is nothing you can do unless you upgrade...that's the silent killer on high heat bills and i'm not talking about caulking and sealing- it's thru the window pains(or lack there of)


----------



## Bullseye

If we're talking more extreme stuff, I've read that hanging good quality window quilts has a large savings. You hang them when sun goes down, and take off in the morning. Basically a big blanket for your window. 

Likewise, you can use reflective mylar in summer to keep sun out. 

It's easy to make your own laundry and dishwashing soap. Trent over at the Simple Dollar has instructions.

Don't wash clothes that aren't dirty. I often hang my clothes to air out at the end of the day. In the morning, I grab and give a deep right-in-the-face sniff. If it doesn't smell, I hang in closet and wear again another day. It helps that I'm not a sweaty guy (at all). Of course, underwear gets washed with every use, and anything I wear while doing exercise. When you do wash, hang to dry, preferrably outdoors.

Use thermal mass to save energy. Google for ideas.

Scrap cable. We haven't had it since last summer, and don't miss it at all. We have a OTA antennae for free local channels, and a web-enabled TV for watching Netflix and other content we can stream. Saves $1000 a year!

Scrap phone. No need for a landline for most people these days. Saves $500 a year.


----------



## DavidJD

I have a 105 year old house with hot water radiators. My house is well insulated. It can get too hot in the basement so I have had to wrap the pipes in foam to keep the basement comfortable. (It was spray foamed). 

I am wondering if anyone has come across a product that can deflect/reflect heat from the wall behind the radiators? I am sure that some insutlated metal sheet might be available to be attached to the wall, almost not visible, that can avoid heating up the wall (drywall or plaster and stud cavity) and direct the ambiant heat into the room.

Any suggestions? 

Also I am not interested in rigging up an ugly tinfoil and cardboard set up. Appearances are important and I am willing to spend more.


----------



## canabiz

We used to pick up bundles of yard waste and food waste bags at Costco but have not done so for the past few months, saving some $ in the process.

I mow and mulch, it's supposed to provide nutrients for the grass so I don't really need the yard waste (still have an old bundle for emergency). We also use newspaper liners for the kitchen food container and we simply empty everything into the green bin the night before garbage days. 

I do clean the kitchen food container right after so there's no smell or anything like that. Every little bit helps I guess.


----------



## Eclectic12

hystat said:


> Saving energy is saving $.
> 
> 
> hystat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... In general, the total opposite is generally true more often than not
> 
> Typically, the cost an efficiency upgrade is NEVER realized as a savings. This fallacy is compounded when people finance such upgrades and then miss out on using the payback funds to invest in actual investments.
> 
> exceptions are common sense things like throwing batts of insulation in the attic and plastic on drafty windows
Click to expand...

I understand the concern about efficiency upgrades that have incomplete calculations to determine if money is saved. It is an important point.

At the same time, I'm not sure it says anything about how often saving energy ends up saving $. 

For example there's no cost to adjusting my therostat when I'm away for the working day or holidays.
If it's an automatic thermostat that the utility company gave the home owner for free - likely it's a $ as well. Someone who purchases a programmable thermostat likely has a longer payback time but is also likely in the long run to be saving $.

Similarly, no cost to putting my gas water heater in vacation mode when I'm away two weeks. 


I know from my utility bills that there is a $ savings to these actions.


So in my case - I'm at least 3 : 0 on the saving energy = $ to efficiency upgrades not paying off ratio. 


Cheers


----------



## FrugalTrader

For those of you with hot water heaters, change the anode every couple of years to extend the life of your water heater!

http://www.milliondollarjourney.com/how-to-extend-the-life-of-your-hot-water-heater-boiler.htm


----------



## Xoron

somecanuck said:


> Yeah.. We're kind of stuck either way though. If I went Bell with FPL (or equivalent), I'd have to pay $60/mo ($44/mo base, $15/mo to bring it up to 145 GB download) to get close to what I get from TekSavvy for $32/mo (300 GB download, same speed) with no contract. And I imagine there's a modem rental fee from Bell.
> 
> I could pay the dry loop ($10/mo or so), cut the phone line ($21/mo or so), and put in FPL with my own ATA to save $11/mo. But it feels like a degradation of service for a measly $10/mo, you know?


I know this is an old thread, but I have TS for DSL, and TS for home phone service. No dry loop fees and no Bell


----------



## canabiz

My lawnmower died recently but before spending $200+ to get a new one I thought I'd try to fix it.

I am not a handyman by any stretch but with YouTube and the assistance of a very helpful RFD poster, we were able to get it working again  

A flywheel key ($3), 6-pack of Keith's ($10), some elbow grease and the bad boy sounds as good as new! Just a few things to check that may help you save some coins

- sparkplug

- carburetor

- flywheel key (this will shear if the flywheel is not tightened down, it needs to be torqued to 35 ft. lbs and a torque wrench could be one of your best investment ever, Princess Auto usually has the 1/2 on sale for $19.99)

- new oil, air filter, sharpen the blade

- fuel stabilizer before you put it away for the winter

Happy mowing!


----------



## cainvest

FrugalTrader said:


> For those of you with hot water heaters, change the anode every couple of years to extend the life of your water heater!
> 
> http://www.milliondollarjourney.com/how-to-extend-the-life-of-your-hot-water-heater-boiler.htm


Good advise and regular hot water heater maintenance (anode and sediment draining) should extend it's life. I do think every two years is a bit early to replace the anode but it depends on your water quality and amount of hot water used. My previous tank, which didn't have a replaceable anode and not all tanks do, lasted 22 years before leaking which is most likely due to good water here. I can replace the anode on my new tank which I'll likely do every 4-5 years based on the life of my previous tank, and now, lower hot water usage.


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## FrugalTrader

As you mentioned, it depends on the amount of metals and other contaminants in the water supply. I've heard another plumber here recommend to replace it every year! However, it doesn't make much financial sense to replace every year.


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## Saver

Hi, I'm new here so I'm still not 100% certain what we can and can't share on the forum. So admin, please delete my post if it doesn't comply with the rules. I'm not associated in any way with the group mentioned so I hope it is okay to share the link.

-Last week, I came across an interesting article about ways to save on energy expenses. Because we're in the middle of summer and this thread is about saving money around the home, I thought it my come in handy for some of you. My favorite is number 6. I'm always trying to open different doors and windows to avoid having to use A/C or fans. 

http://blog.etoncorp.com/index.php/2013/07/summer-energy-expenses/

-Another thing, I don't know if it's already been mentioned...but solar panels are a great way of reducing expenses. My family put them in several years ago and though they were quite an investment at the time they have more than paid for themselves by now. We can enjoy free hot water for the most part (rainy, cloudy weeks we still need to use a water heater).


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## kcowan

Saver said:


> -Another thing, I don't know if it's already been mentioned...but solar panels are a great way of reducing expenses. My family put them in several years ago and though they were quite an investment at the time they have more than paid for themselves by now. We can enjoy free hot water for the most part (rainy, cloudy weeks we still need to use a water heater).


... you could provided added value in your contributions here by adding specifics, like I live in the Okanagon, paid $xxxxxx and am saving $yyyy each year from water heater only (no AC). Vague claims are unlikely to motivate any actions.


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## Hawkdog

Here is a link to BC hydro savings tips.
https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/residential.html

Does anyone put their AC on a timer? I don't have AC, but similar to your thermostat I could see setting the AC to come on 10 min before arriving home from work.


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## Hawkdog

rookie said:


> can you guys recommend a shrink film and where to buy it from. the HD ones seemed too pricey. not sure where to buy the 3M ones in canada.


any hardware store will sell it, home hardware, canadian tire, rona, home depot, etc. buy it in the spring not in the fall! you can sometimes find it on sale.


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## Hawkdog

MoneyGal said:


> Great point. The single worst / best example of this (in my view) is the $600 vacuum. I AM SURE that $600 vacuums perform "better" than my $100 cheapie. But guess what? I sweep every day, and vacuum every few days. Does a house with a $600 vacuum have "less dust" than mine or require less frequent vacuuming? How MUCH better is a $600 vacuum than my $20 broom? Is it fully 30x more effective?


After 10 years of cheap vacuums we just bought a $500 Dyson Vacuum, with no regrets, the difference is significant. It doesn't require a filter, you just empty the canister which is a bonus. The ergonomics do make a difference. Its a lot quieter than I expected as well. We have two large dogs that live in the house with us so it makes a big difference, maybe without dogs it might not be as significant.


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## Spudd

Hawkdog said:


> Does anyone put their AC on a timer? I don't have AC, but similar to your thermostat I could see setting the AC to come on 10 min before arriving home from work.


Our AC is controlled by our thermostat (which is programmable) so yes, we set it to allow the house to get warmer when nobody's home, and cooler when we're going to be there.


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## kcowan

We control air temp with doors and blinds. Our place is all glass facing south and west. We close the doors in the morning to control the Pacific sea breezes, then open them and shut the blinds in the afternoon.
http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/a/c/d/11869/ph4lr0.jpg
http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/a/c/d/11869/f10200240.jpg
http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/a/c/d/11869/f10200250.jpg


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## Spudd

Gorgeous, kcowan!


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## martinv

kcowan said:


> We control air temp with doors and blinds. Our place is all glass facing south and west. We close the doors in the morning to control the Pacific sea breezes, then open them and shut the blinds in the afternoon.
> 
> Exactly, works perfect, some days a bit too well.


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## Saver

*swear 3225632*



kcowan said:


> ... you could provided added value in your contributions here by adding specifics, like I live in the Okanagon, paid $xxxxxx and am saving $yyyy each year from water heater only (no AC). Vague claims are unlikely to motivate any actions.


The thing is we installed our solar panels several years ago so I'm sure the prices are very different now. At the time we spent somewhere between $2000-$2500 and we currently save just over $200 a year. With the rise of costs for everything this number has been rising a bit each year, which has been nice. Hope this helps.


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## kcowan

Saver said:


> The thing is we installed our solar panels several years ago so I'm sure the prices are very different now. At the time we spent somewhere between $2000-$2500 and we currently save just over $200 a year. With the rise of costs for everything this number has been rising a bit each year, which has been nice. Hope this helps.


So payback is 10-12 years? Not compelling but satisfying for sure. :encouragement:


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## Saver

kcowan said:


> So payback is 10-12 years? Not compelling but satisfying for sure. :encouragement:


No, it's definitely not an immediate turnaround, but more of a long term investment. We felt it was worth it though. Yeah we had to wait, but what we paid to install it we would have had to spend in heating the water anyways. The only difference would be that after 10 years we'd have nothing to show for it (except memories of hot showers ). 

It's also nice to see that we don't have to worry about the rising costs of heating (water that is!). When we first installed it we were paying around $110 for hot water. The cost has almost doubled since then. But you are absolutely right...it is not an overnight saver.


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## fraser

In Calgary and in Alberta, we are seeing a significant increase in interest, and demand, for solar.

It is in part attributable to rising energy costs, but more attributable to an approximate 30 percent reduction in cost over the past 18 months. This decrease will continue over time. The payback is becoming much shorter and at the same time the public is becoming more interested in environmental issues...or at least the cost of electricity.

I anticipate that the cost of residential solar will continue to decrease. We are the ideal area for this in terms of the number of days of sunshine that we enjoy.


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## Hawkdog

just an interesting tidbit, if you build a new house in Portugal you are required to install a solar panel. Ideal climate for it.


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## Feruk

fraser said:


> In Calgary and in Alberta, we are seeing a significant increase in interest, and demand, for solar.


I live in Calgary, and we get some pretty decent hail here a couple times a year. Also, 4+ months of the year your solar panels are covered in snow. Does the hail not destroy the panels? Do they work when covered in snow? I don't know either way, curious actually, but it seems Calgary would be a terrible place for solar panels.


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## Saver

Hawkdog said:


> just an interesting tidbit, if you build a new house in Portugal you are required to install a solar panel. Ideal climate for it.


hmmm...that's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. It definitely is an ideal part of the world for solar. While I'm all for solar (obviously!) I'm not sure how I would feel about being _required_ to install it. But hey, that's a completely different topic. Thanks for mentioning this tidbit.


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## Hawkdog

Saver said:


> hmmm...that's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. It definitely is an ideal part of the world for solar. While I'm all for solar (obviously!) I'm not sure how I would feel about being _required_ to install it. But hey, that's a completely different topic. Thanks for mentioning this tidbit.


In a sense its similar to a water meter i guess. The 80 cent beer makes up for it


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## Ponderling

One of the not mentioned points is to buy out your water heater contract, if you currently rent one, and the break cost is not too high.

I took my tank that came with house back to their gas company depot, for free, and had the one I bought at home depot pumbed with a new gas fitting the next day when I swithched to e new high efficiency gas forced air furnace. If I bought out the contract they wanted soemthing like $220 for a 12 year old conventional b vent water tank. 

Next water heater iteration I may go with a forced induction unit that vents out the basement wall to get rid of the chimney effect of the B vent and close it off.

Lots of cold air gets sucked in though cracks to make up for the warm air going up the open B vent all the time. 

As I renovate rooms through repainting etc I pull up the baseboards, and run a latex crack sealer along the joint between the wall and floor, to cut that infltration source. 

Yes, the foam gaskets behind the electrical receptacles and light switches make a difference too. I do all walls, not just outside walls. I also latex foam seal the crack around the electrical box ( power off at the time) where there is a big gap between the electrical box and the hole cut in the drywall.

We replaced all the double pane but not vaccuum seal between the panes 40 year old windows a few years ago. Big cost, but house is now warmer and a lot quieter. No longer whistles in the winter winds.
Prior to window swap out in rooms not in a lot in daytime we would fit rigid foam ( pink or blue) insualtion into the upper half of the window , and seal it in with the peelable caulking.
I mean, we are up before the sun, and home after sunset between December and just about end of March, so why not? We did fit a thin piece of foam core board against the glass so the look was white from the outside. 

Extra attic insulation is almost always a no brainer if you have less than 6" up there. I have 12" plus now.

We had a chimney top damper installed on our conventional wood burning fire place, and fit a rigid faom plug in the openning when it it not in use. Lots warmer in that room now in the winter and cooler in the summer.

Yes, I know it is not efficient, but no extra cash laying around that is not better used elsehwere to fit a custom wood stove insert into it quite yet. Am also looking into economics of a corn stove. 

Next step for insulaltion upgrade is to peel off the second storey chalking 45 year old white aluminum siding, and install 2" of rigid foam or do a full 4" of spray foam, since the original 4" of fibregalss in the wall cavity is not really working very well any more. Then kill 2 birds and put new siding on as part of the operation.


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