# Khadr gets to stay



## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Yup, our glorious legal system has allowed this known terrorist to stay in Canada, probably collect welfare for the rest of his life, can't ship him to the U.S where he faces charges because they didn't treat him right.

Khadr's buddies, the ones He was buying arms for, blow up babies, cut off innocent people's heads, murder Red Cross volunteers, and we can't send him to Justice because they were nasty to him.

Too many damn Lawyers in this country.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

Hmm. I think for the younger Khadr it is a bit different in that he was a child with little choice but to undergo his father's evil wishes. 

However I want to know why Mrs. Khadr is here? I wish I could retrieve the CBC interview with her when her husband was held by the Saudi government (?) and she begged then PM Chretien to appeal to the other government for his release, which happened. I recall when asked if her husband had links to terrorism..."Noo we are peace loving people..." 

Evil father and evil mother in my opinion. Sacrificing their children for evil...


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

The people have no interest in our country beyond the benefit it offers them. They've shown no interest in working for the interests of our country, its people or its history. Passports of convenience, nothing more. They have nothing in common with us. Don't want them.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

This Khadr is not the one the U.S still have, this is another one, I think the oldest.

My Father could tell me to kill, chances are zero i would listen,this Guy was buying weapons for Osama.

Khadr Family are all collecting welfare, living in Scarborough.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Isn't Khadr a citizen?

You can't just dump citizens, no matter how little you like them. We have no legal provision for revoking citizenship. I don't want Canada to become some banana republic with no respect for the laws of the land.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Citizenship carries along with it the responsibility to obey the laws of your adopted home, if you break those laws you should forfeit the right to citizenship and be shipped back to your country of birth.

Too many bleeding hearts have allowed people like the Khadrs to hide behind , to carry out illegal acts with impunity, using the law, No, abusing the law , with impunity.

I am an Immigrant, I came to Canada to be Canadian, if I am convicted of a serious act, I should lose the rights to my adopted country, I accept that, so would all law abiding Immigrants.

Evil is loose in the Western World, committed to destroyong our Religion and way of life, it uses the laws that were meant to protect us , against us.

Canada, so far, has escaped any carnage, but it almost did happen and hate mongers spewing their evil in the name of religion could cause some individual to repeat here what has happened in other countries.

Right Wing Extremist groups are springing up in a population frustrated by Politicians pandering to evil doers, I do not want that to happen here.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> You can't just dump citizens, no matter how little you like them. We have no legal provision for revoking citizenship...


I'm surprised that you say we have no legal provision for revoking citizenship. We certainly do - it was done just recently in the case of a former Nazi concentration camp guard who had failed to disclose his background when he applied for his Canadian citizenship. His citizenship was revoked prior to his being deported. (I don't remember his name.) I googled "revoking Canadian citizenship" and found many links, including this quote:

_In Canada, section 10 of the Citizenship Act provides the Governor in Council with the authority to make an Order in Council that results in the revocation of citizenship. Grounds for revocation include false representation, fraud or knowingly concealing material circumstances in connection with entry into Canada._ 

I'm not saying that the Khadr family's citizenship could necessarily have been revoked under this provision - for one thing, I don't know whether or not the younger members of the family were born in Canada - but just wanted to correct your general statement.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Omar Khadr is a natural-born Canadian citizen. His citizenship cannot legally be revoked. If you guys feel so strongly about him not being allowed to return to Canada, law be damned, we could go for the full Osama on him and put a bullet in his head and dump his body in the ocean. Never mind that he's never been given a fair trial or due process. Terrorists win when they reveal how thin the veneer of our civilization is. How little they need to do to get us to disregard the supposedly foundational principles on which our societies are based.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I suppose I'll clarify since I'll probably be called a bleeding heart: Omar Khadr is quite possibly guilty of murder under some interpretations of the law. I'm no expert. As a Canadian citizen, our government had and has a duty to ensure that he is given due process, and not held in an extra-judicial gulag indefinitely. If anyone feels differently, I'm curious to see what criteria they're using to decide who deserves due process and who does not. Would a 14 year old white boy who allegedly murdered someone on the street get the same treatment? I'm not comfortable with the idea that our government has the right to decide in secret which Canadian citizens can have their rights stripped.

If/when Khadr returns to Canada, it's not clear to me whether he ought to be released after he's served his sentence. I imagine he has some psychological issues that need to be resolved. I imagine many people would if they had such abusive parents, were fighting in a war, and had this happen to them at 14.

Not to mention getting put in a prison camp with questionable treatment of prisoners, potentially for the rest of his life.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> Omar Khadr is a natural-born Canadian citizen. His citizenship cannot legally be revoked.


Andrew, I think I made it clear that I knew that Khadr's citizenship couldn't be revoked if he had been born in Canada. I was just correcting your unequivocal statement that Canada has "no legal provision for revoking citizenship."


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Would a 14 year old white boy who allegedly murdered someone on the street get the same treatment?



If you are a black african boy forced to become a child solider you get sympathy.


Of course, this doesn't apply to muslims.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I don't know for sure about his citizenship but if he is guilty of such crimes he should be sent to the US to face justice.

In Canada I think anyone who is not a citizen yet and commits any crime that they are convicted of then they should be sent back. If you break into houses or cars or whatever and you get caught you get sent back. If you say the country you came from is a bad place or whatever then that is to bad you should have thought of that before you did the crime.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

whatever happened to the horrifying photograph that originally accompanied andrew's bleeding-heart post ? i'm curious because there's no sign that andrew as author of this message ever edited his post. Does this mean that the moderators edited out the photo ?

turning now to andrew's eloquent argument, that khadr should face justice in canada & not be "held in an extra-judicial gulag indefinitely."

this is a good argument. But i think the rebuttal is that canadians are frequently held in foreign jails in gulag conditions or worse, awaiting foreign "justice." Often their fates are far worse than what any prisoner of the US would suffer, since some of these canadians actually get tortured & executed. Ottawa tries to intervene in the worst cases but such efforts are catch-as-catch-can. 

extending andrew's argument for repatriating prisoners to face due process in canada, would this not mean logically speaking - and reversing the argument - that a foreign country could send terrorists to north america to commit atrocities, and then demand that the perpetrators be immediately shipped back home because the canadian or american jails & justice systems are gulags ...


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> whatever happened to the horrifying photograph that originally accompanied andrew's bleeding-heart post ?


I requested the removal as there had been no need for such a 'horrifying' picture and not in the least related to the topic of deportation; if he had wanted to shock/inform us or whatever was his motive, he could have attached a link [with a warning or not] rather than have it permanently displayed for all to see regardless of how some of us would feel. After all, this is a money forum and nice that we can discuss other topics here, but no need to gross anyone out, we're better than that and can express ourselves with words. Indeed he's 'a bleeding heart'.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Well we live in a country of law. 

If you don't like it because some people go free on technicalities or circumstance and you want to disregard the great work our system does in the vast majority of cases, then you can move to a country where there is no law or those laws are not enforced. Somalia for instance has no income tax or working system of law. Enjoy. 

There is a reason why our law system is oppositional in nature. The state applies the law according to their evidence and the defense can bring up other evidence or contest the evidence provided by the prosecution. 

It's the nature of a free society that everyone has the same rights, to be treated with respect and with human rights. Our system of government must take the high road. 

This is why the death penalty is retarded. You killed someone, killing is wrong so I'm going to kill you. 

Civilized society says instead, you have committed a crime and we must keep you away from other people to keep them safe. 

None of us here have the proper information to decide Khadr's fate. 

As far as what the United States says, we already know that their information is suspect. As far as I'm concerned if the US was any other country they'd be prosecuted and considered war criminals for their invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq

9/11 is no excuse for their illegal wars. Many other countries have had acts of terror perpetrated against them without declaring war on other countries. Al Quaeda and Osama Bin Laden are not countries they are terrorist organisations like many others. They have no country. Al Quaeda cells have been found in many other countries... by design. Why haven't these other countries been attacked? 

Furthermore, religion has nothing to do with it. One of the biggest misconceptions is that these people are anything more than madmen. Their excuses and stories are just that. 

For instance one often repeated tale was that Osama Bin Laden was set upon his quest because the USA left their military base in Saudi Arabia. Ok so let's give that a look... did he launch planes into that military base? Uhmmm no. He launched planes into an office building in another country. So basically these are lies, given life by people who don't understand psychopaths. 

There will never a shortage of madmen of all shapes and colours and religion, given a fertile breeding ground those with charisma can cause untold human casualties. Charisma is the essential ingredient because a madman alone can cause a limited amount of damage compared to a madman with a horde. 

We should as a global community take good care to avoid those conditions that spawn "breeding grounds" that provide these madmen with desperate people willing to mobilize into a horde. Fat, happy people make very bad hordes. They just want to watch tv and go about their business. Yet as we can clearly see from the Second World War,normal people can easily be mobilized to unspeakable acts by these charismatic madmen, in that case to the the tune of 50 million people.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

^ great post, Berubeland!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> extending andrew's argument for repatriating prisoners to face due process in canada, would this not mean logically speaking - and reversing the argument - that a foreign country could send terrorists to north america to commit atrocities, and then demand that the perpetrators be immediately shipped back home because the canadian or american jails & justice systems are gulags ...


If the terrorism is state-sponsored, that is an act of war, not a mere crime. Nonetheless, I don't object to Khadr being held in US custody so long as he is given due process and not subjected to cruel and unusal punishment (both of which have clearly been violated). Khadr is being held outside the US precisely because his incarceration is/was illegal under US law.

Given that the US has in the past and is likely in the future to subject Khadr to cruel and unusual punishment, it's probably justified to have him returned to Canada to serve his term here. Then at least the Canadian government is responsible for the treatment of a Canadian citizen.

About the photo: I think it would serve people well to see things like that more often. Too often it's all too easy for us in Canada to cast things in such black and white terms. Khadr may have commited some awful crimes including the unjustified killing of an American soldier with a grenade, but he is a human being. I'm not comfortable with attempts to dehumanize our enemies as a way to rationalize their mistreatment. If we're willing to do that, are we any better than the guys who throw acid in the faces of little girls and put their women in cloth bags?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

about removal of the photograph, you do have a good point t.gal. However i feel that so many of us ostrich ourselves a lot of the time from the savage & terrifying events that are happening every second in most parts of the world. 

i know i do. Because who could tolerate the pain of full & constant recognition. 

nevertheless children maimed & injured in war are an issue that is urgent & tragic. So i for one approve when a rare picture manages to creep into this forum. We should all be reminded from time to time that there are far, far more important aspects to life than the mere making of money.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

berubland, nice post, very articulate, but the next time your kid's University tuition goes up, think of Olsen getting a free M.B.A, think of Bernado, think of homolka.

The problem with the rule of law is that often times they forget to apply justice.

Murderers who are executed do not repeat their crimes like the prisoner in jail for murder who has killed two more since incarcerated, or the murderer who killed the child in England who is walking free and costing millions to the public to keep his new identity secret.

The law says that there is to be no discrimination based upon Religion, Sex, Sexual orientation, ethnic status etc, but you can find hundreds of examples where this law is not applied, there is No Justice.

I miss the days when there was a seperate room in the pub for guys only, Women demanded they be closed, then promptly opened clubs that barred Males, and the list goes on.

Khadr will reoffend, there is only law when the person believes in the law, criminals ignore the law and when caught, appeal to the law, in most cases their legal fees are paid for by victims of their crime.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> Citizenship carries along with it the responsibility to obey the laws of your adopted home, *if you break those laws you should forfeit the right to citizenship and be shipped back to your country of birth*.


Absolutely! Are you referring to the young Khadr..the "child soldier"that
threw the grenade at the US Medic? From what I recall, he was born in "K"anada, and is
considered a Canadian citizen, so they have to deal with him.

excerpt from Wiki>>
In April 2009, the Federal Court of Canada ruled that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms made it obligatory for the government to immediately demand Khadr's return. After a hearing before the Federal Court of Appeal produced the same result, the government announced they would argue their case before the Supreme Court of Canada.

In January 2010, the Supreme Court ruled that *Khadr's constitutional rights had clearly been violated, *but it stopped short of ordering the government to seek his return to Canada.
<end of excerpt>


[QUOTE}
I am an Immigrant, I came to Canada to be Canadian, if I am convicted of a serious act, I should lose the rights to my adopted country, I accept that, so would all law abiding Immigrants. [/QUOTE]

I think that if you were born in Canada, you are automatically a Canadian
Citizen enjoying full benefit of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
The fact that Omar chose to go to Afghanistan and become a child soldier
doesn't really change things. He probably is allowed to serve the sentence
for his crime (even though it was committed outside of Canada) in a 
Canadian Prison. Take for example the teacher from east of the GTA,
that murdered his wife in Jamaica. The trial was held there,and he was
convicted, but returned to Canada to serve his sentence here. 




> Canada, so far, has escaped any carnage, but it almost did happen and hate mongers spewing their evil in the name of religion could cause some individual to repeat here what has happened in other countries.


Well hold on to your soap box here..you can't paint everyone with broad
strokes of the brush. There are lots of Canadian landed immigrants from
the middle east that are minding their own business and trying to start
a new life in Canada. 



> Right Wing Extremist groups are springing up in a population frustrated by Politicians pandering to evil doers, I do not want that to happen here.


Whether we don't want it to happen here (or not), it is not up to us
to make those decisions on who should come and who should not.
Immigration Canada and the courts decide on which applicants are
granted immigration to Canada. If they happen to be part of a 
secret "organization" in their homeland and continue that here..well
we have CSIS and the RCMP.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

carverman, Quebec has control of its' own Immigration, a right not enjoyed by any other Province.

North America has to deal with the facts that it is now Mohammad and NOT Mike immigrating to Canada,a nd when Muslims have the same political clout as Catholics, they will demand a seperate School System ,. modelled on Muslim beliefs, just as Catholics have demanded their own system, both of which activly discrimnate against Gays and people of other faiths.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It's probably fair to say that "Khadr 'chose'" should be in scare quotes. The tricky thing in this case is that he was raised by hateful parents--we simply don't know what he did or did not want to do. If he refused to go along with the family business, he probably would have earned a bullet to the head.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

Kids have very little ability to freely choose anythng. That is why you have kids raised in cults 'choosing' to stay in the cult. Kids may not choose to be vegan but are raised that way until the discover the wonderful world of bacon.

A child in this type of fanatical, extremist religion, terrorist group is not likely to be like a normal kid who 'rebels' like Marilyn Munster or Alex P. Keaton.

Children are the tradegy with these evil parents...


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

andrew, let's not confuse the Khadrs, this is NOT the young one in Cuba, this is the elder Brother who bought arms for Al Quaeda to use against U.N Troops, He was activly participatng in the murder of U.N and Canadian Troops, as well as providing the necessary items for Bombers.

This is an Adult, not the kid who murdered the Medic, i think He is still in U.S control.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

there is well-meaning confusion here.

if howard is right, the younger son omar, who was 14 when apprehended, is the one still in guantanamo bay, while the older son abdullah is here in canada. Furthermore abdullah would not have been the son in the famous photograph shown in this thread but withdrawn.

even more compelling are the details about their birth places. Were both these sons born in canada. Is older son abdullah an immigrant here, if indeed he is the son who is here.

surely clarification would enlighten this thread.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Omar was born in Canada. Abdullah it is unclear. From what I gather, Abdullah was born in 1981 while his father was employed by Bell Northern Research in Ottawa--presumably that entails him being born in Canada but I cannot find it stated explicitly.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm Howard said:


> berubland, nice post, very articulate, but the next time your kid's University tuition goes up, think of Olsen getting a free M.B.A, think of Bernado, think of homolka.
> 
> The problem with the rule of law is that often times they forget to apply justice.
> 
> ...


See that's the difference between me and the criminals, I believe in treating people well no matter how broken and diseased they are. Because we can't "fix" them there is no option but to keep them out of society. 

If your logic says that killing is wrong, how is it ok for you to then kill? As long as it's justified ? Then it's Ok? 

As far as I'm concerned that's the difference between us and "them" 

Furthermore if you'd ever been close to a psychopath you'd discover that they too have sound (to them) rationalizations for the atrocities they perpetuate. Our job as a society is to be better. 

People are extremely complex organic beings and it's almost inevitable that a certain number of them will be born or develop in ways that make it impossible for them to live in our society. They are "bad apples" this has been the way since the beginning of time. 

Regardless, I don't begrudge Karla Holmolka or Paul Bernardo or Clifford Olsen an education if they desire one. What's it to me? Perhaps they can become more useful. 

Furthermore because of people's repugnance towards these aberrant personality types, we don't study them or find out what makes them tick. If we would stop labeling them as "evil" and tried to figure out what makes them tick we might get further ahead then by killing them. 

On some level it's not their fault or their choice, although this view definitely makes it more difficult to take away their human rights and even their life. As a society we also need to figure out where to stop. Does a crime of passion (ie finding your wife in bed with someone else) excuse behaviour? What about age? Children are notorious for lacking impulse control and foresight. What about low functioning people? Where do you stop? 

What about the unjustly convicted? In the States this is a huge problem. Obviously the police are under enormous pressure to solve cases. Sometimes it's the poor minority passerby or bystander that gets to be the perpetrator. Without competent legal counsel it's easy to get sent to jail especially if you're a little feeble minded like many on death row. Quite a few have been proven entirely innocent by DNA. 

All in all we enjoy the benefits of civilization, which includes letting cooler heads prevail instead of mob justice. Like it or not by protecting these heinous people's rights, you are also protecting your own.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Canadian Marc Emery is serving a 5 year sentence in a US prison, for selling marijuana seeds through the mail. He was raided by Canadian police, on the request of the US Drug Enforcement Agency, and held for extradition to the US.

In Canada, the Court of Appeal ruled that the penalty for mailing marijuana seeds would be one month in jail and probation.

Mr. Emery was facing a 10 year jail sentence for himself and two other people. His plea bargain was for a 5 year sentence for himself only.

This is utter nonsense. The US orders our police around like puppy dogs, and issue their own brand of justice, for a criminal offence that in Canada is often considered a "nuisance charge" and summary offence.

Consider that the US and Canada are in discussions about a North American Perimeter agreement. The US wants Canada to hand over all information on Canadian citizens and the right to enter Canada to arrest Canadian citizens and take them back to the US for trial.

Canada is either a sovereign nation or it isn't.

We DON'T just hand over our citizens to other countries. 

If Khadr is guilty of breaking Canadian law..........he can stand trial in Canada.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Omar was born in Canada. Abdullah it is unclear. From what I gather, Abdullah was born in 1981 while his father was employed by Bell Northern Research in Ottawa--presumably that entails him being born in Canada but I cannot find it stated explicitly.


Abdullah was born in Afghanistan along with his older brother (Abduraman) and emigrated with his parents to Canada. The youngest brother (Omar)
was born here.

Apparently the two older brothers were already involved with the training
camps before they left. So they were not exactly innocent when they
immigrated to Canada. 

extraction from Wiki...
The two brothers fought constantly at the camp, one day their argument became so heated that Abdullah pointed his AK-47 and Abdurahman his PPK handgun, at each other screaming, before a trainer stepped between them.
<end of extraction>

here's more on Abdullah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Khadr

BTW..I worked for BNR (Bell-Northern Research) from '85 to 92' when
Nortel assimulated BNR. However, I did not work with the father Khadr.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

berubeland it is that type of logic and thinking that now pervades our legal and education system and two questions, are the kids better educated now or ten years ago, are the streets safer now than ten years ago .???

I would add if you say Yes, you are not in touch with the way things really are.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> Canada is either a sovereign nation or it isn't.
> 
> We DON'T just hand over our citizens to other countries.


We can if the extradition warrants it for murderers hiding here. 
But there are special arrangements with the US as far as border
security. We used to be able to go across with just a driver
licence and a second piece of ID. Now you either have to
have the Ontario Ehanced (RFI chip) license or a passport to
get across.

A while ago (don't know of it's in effect though), the Homeland
Security wanted passenger lists of all commercial aircraft flying
into the US and even if they were just flying through the US
to get to some other country like Mexico.

So when it comes to the US and trade with the US, the PM will
sometimes bow to the demands of the US White House through
diplomatic channels, of course.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

carverman said:


> A while ago (don't know of it's in effect though), the Homeland
> Security wanted passenger lists of all commercial aircraft flying
> into the US and even if they were just flying through the US
> to get to some other country like Mexico.


It was worse than that. They even wanted lists for flights flying between Canadian destinations through US airspace (ie, Toronto to Calgary).


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm Howard said:


> berubeland it is that type of logic and thinking that now pervades our legal and education system and two questions, are the kids better educated now or ten years ago, are the streets safer now than ten years ago .???
> 
> I would add if you say Yes, you are not in touch with the way things really are.


Well my kids reads and writes and he's three still. I have very limited expectations for what the school system can ever do for him. 

I have absolutely no love for the school system after being shunned, put in the hall for hours, I was even the last person in my school to get the strap as they phased out corporal punishment. Even after grade 3 when my teacher had me tested because she thought I was retarded and they discovered I was a little more that 1.5 times smarter than the average person, they still did nothing for me. The teachers I liked sent me to the library as a punishment. So please don't tell me that the schools were great when I was a kid. 

Unless you attend meetings where some guy reads aloud from a power point presentation that gets repeated like Groundhog Day, you can't really appreciate what school was like for me. 

The best thing I ever did was quit French school in Grade 9 and then test out of all the requirements for high school except for Grade 12 English. Then I went to college where I paid my way by tutoring other students and even won a scholarship with an average of 99.9. 

Furthermore violent crimes and other crimes are down in Canada. 

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=57

Americans should be copying us and trying to figure out what we're doing right considering that they have double the crime rate we do.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

i agree with much of what you have to say, Berubeland, but I don't go as far as you do. I believe that, no matter what has caused the aberrance of some of the people you've mentioned (Karla Holmolka Paul Bernardo, Clifford Olsen), they are just plain evil, and, although I'm generally opposed to capital punishment, I would have no objection to their being executed. To me, they are among a small group of people who have no value to our society and no potential to become useful or even harmless to society.

I remain opposed to capital punishment because I realize it's impractical to make laws that break down killers in that way, but I strongly believe that our laws should have a provision for keeping these kinds of criminals in prison for life with no possibility for release ever. (The other reason I'm opposed to capital punishment is that mistakes can and do happen and people are wrongly convicted on occasion - we've had several examples come to light in recent years - and it's a bit difficult for society to make amends if the wrongly-accused person has been executed.)

As for the elder Khadr, who was apparently not a natural-born Canadian citizen, I think his citizenship can and should be revoked. I believe that could be done because he obviously withheld information from immigration authorities - I'm sure he didn't disclose the fact that he had taken part in terrorist training camps.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> I, I was even the last person in my school to get the strap as they phased out corporal punishment.


"B"..well..I'm shocked!  ..and here I thought you were always a good
little girl! Well I was a bad boy through my school years. Got the strap
several times for talking back to the teacher..who was a pr*ck in my
developing mind at the time. Later on..it was detentions in HS for smoking
in the halls/on school grounds..but I gave it up years ago.

Now, I just an old dude thata wants to be bad! 



> Even after grade 3 when my teacher had me tested because she thought I was retarded and they discovered I was a little more that 1.5 times smarter than the average person, they still did nothing for me. The teachers I liked sent me to the library as a punishment. So please don't tell me that the schools were great when I was a kid.


Obviously, "B" you were a gifted child and they didn't have streaming back
then..heck I was ready for college at 16..HS was a waste of time for the
last 2 years...algebra, trig, calculus..who needs that stuff displacing the
cobwebs in my brain now. 

*The best thing I ever did was quit French school in Grade 9*
[/QUOTE]

You too? I couldn't stand my French teacher..she was an old spinster
prude, that kept picking on me in front of the class and emphasizing
rather loudly, how the word was to be pronounce in french.
We got her back though. One day, me an a friend, took my jack out of my
car and jacked up here rear wheels with a couple of blocks of wood.
Boy did she get a surprise when she got into her car.
I was a greaser guy..leather jacket, sorta like Danny on "Grease"..
see..you could be "good girl" Sandy and I'll be bad boy "Danny"

..or would you still prefer to be "bad"? 



> Then I went to college where I paid my way by tutoring other students and even won a scholarship with an average of 99.9.


Carve -> marriage proposal to Smart Lady! 



> Americans should be copying us and trying to figure out what we're doing right considering that they have double the crime rate we do.


What for free??..We should charge them for that!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> So please don't tell me that the schools were great when I was a kid.
> 
> The best thing I ever did was quit French school in Grade 9 and then test out of all the requirements for high school except for Grade 12 English. Then I went to college where I paid my way *by tutoring *other students and even won a *scholarship with an average of 99.9*.


Carve -> marriage proposal to "B"



> Americans should be copying us and trying to figure out what we're doing right considering that they have double the crime rate we do.


Well, I guess they are too busy keeping the "NEW WORLD ORDER", to
be concerned about education.,.besides 10% of the population own
nearly all the wealth, so why spend money on education on the other
90%?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> i I would have no objection to their being executed. To me, they are among a small group of people who have no value to our society and no potential to become useful or even harmless to society.
> 
> I remain opposed to capital punishment because I realize it's impractical to make laws that break down killers in that way, but I strongly believe that our laws should have a provision for keeping these kinds of criminals in prison for life with no possibility for release ever. (The other reason I'm opposed to capital punishment is that mistakes can and do happen and people are wrongly convicted on occasion - we've had several examples come to light in recent years - and it's a bit difficult for society to make amends if the wrongly-accused person has been executed.)


Yes, mistakes sometimes do happen, but in Bernado/Homolka's case, they
had the video sex tapes as evidence..and in Olsen's case, he was a serial
child molestor/killer that killed at least 8 kids..some were still alive when
he drove spikes into their heads, to see if there was still any reaction..
So.. do you still believe that there is hope for these psychopaths????



> As for the elder Khadr, who was apparently not a natural-born Canadian citizen, I think his citizenship can and should be revoked. I believe that could be done because *he obviously withheld information from immigration authorities* - I'm sure he didn't disclose the fact that he had taken part in terrorist training camps.


Why Karen? He did not participate in the training camps..his sons did.
His sons were at least 16 when they immigrated to Canada, and when
you are 18 you can participate your own swearing in for citizenship.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> Yes, mistakes sometimes do happen, but in Bernado/Homolka's case, they had the video sex tapes as evidence..and in Olsen's case, he was a serial
> child molestor/killer that killed at least 8 kids..some were still alive when
> he drove spikes into their heads, to see if there was still any reaction..
> So.. do you still believe that there is hope for these psychopaths????


I thought I made it clear that for extreme cases like those, I would have no problem with capital punishment, and no, I don't think there is any hope for these people.



> Why Karen? He did not participate in the training camps..his sons did.
> His sons were at least 16 when they immigrated to Canada, and when
> you are 18 you can participate your own swearing in for citizenship.


I didn't explain myself very clearly here - by the "elder Kadhr," I meant the elder son, not the father.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Please refer by name. Are you suggesting that Abdullah Khadr was not born in Canada, because I've seen no evidence of that.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Karen said:


> I thought I made it clear that for extreme cases like those, I would have no problem with capital punishment, and no, I don't think there is any hope for these people.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't explain myself very clearly here - by the "elder Kadhr," I meant the elder son, not the father.


So killing someone is justified from a moral perspective? On what grounds? 

From an economic perspective, life-long incarceration is generally less costly to the taxpayer than execution.


On the question of crime levels. The argument conservatives generally use is that, although crime statistics suggest crime rates have dropped steadily and significantly over the past thirty years, this is because there is now a much higher proportion of unreported crime (as far as I can tell, this claim is totally unsubstantiated). If this is a problem, tougher sentencing laws, etc. is woefully inadequate in addressing this problem. Building prisons to hold all these unreported criminals doesn't seem very useful. At the same time, the government has cut and intends to further cut crime prevention programs. Seems to me if you're interested in the welfare of victims, you'd try to prevent the crime before they become a victim rather than taking the hang-'em-high approach to the perpetrator afterwards. There's been plenty of evidence to support the conclusion that many crimes are not discouraged by more severe sentences because the perpetrator is not counting on getting caught in their cost-benefit analysis.

I'm not opposed to investing more resources in reducing the frequency and severity of crime. I'd like it for those resources to be used in a way consistent with empirical evidence of what is effective, and what is not effective. Simply locking every criminal up for longer and longer is a profound waste of resources. I mean, when do we stop? The US has 3% of its population in prisons.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> Please refer by name. Are you suggesting that Abdullah Khadr was not born in Canada, because I've seen no evidence of that.


Andrew after you stated the you didn't know whether Abdullah was born in Canada or not, Carverman posted the following information:

_Abdullah was born in Afghanistan along with his older brother (Abduraman) and emigrated with his parents to Canada. The youngest brother (Omar) was born here.

Apparently the two older brothers were already involved with the training
camps before they left._

Rightly or wrongly, I based my comments on the information provided by Carverman.

As far as my views on capital punishment are concerned, I disapprove of it generally, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there are rare cases where I would consider it appropriate. I have acknowledged that the law could not practically make those kinds of distinctions, so I remain opposed to it. However, that doesn't change the fact that there is a big difference between most murders where the people convicted are found guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" and the extreme cases of the serial killers mentioned above (Bernardo, Homolka, Olsen), where the crimes were particularly heinous and there was no doubt whatsoever as to who the perpetrators were.



> ...Seems to me if you're interested in the welfare of victims, you'd try to prevent the crime before they become a victim rather than taking the hang-'em-high approach to the perpetrator afterwards. There's been plenty of evidence to support the conclusion that many crimes are not discouraged by more severe sentences because the perpetrator is not counting on getting caught in their cost-benefit analysis.


I think many of your views are rather naive, at least in the case of psychopaths, as the people named above unquestionably are. Do you honestly believe they could be rehabilitated to the point where you would feel safe if they lived next door to you? In cases like theirs, I consider that the prime purpose of imprisoning them is not for their rehabilitation nor even to punish them but rather for the protection of the rest of us, and the only way that can assured is to lock them up for life.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

According to wikipedia (all necessary caveats), Abdullah's parents were residing in Ottawa at the time of his birth as his father was working for Bell North Research (later a part of Nortel). That's suggestive that he was born in Canada, but I could find no definitive statement to support or contradict that after a cursory search. They did later move to Bahrain.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Karen said:


> I think many of your views are rather naive, at least in the case of psychopaths, as the people named above unquestionably are. Do you honestly believe they could be rehabilitated to the point where you would feel safe if they lived next door to you? In cases like theirs, I consider that the prime purpose of imprisoning them is not for their rehabilitation nor even to punish them but rather for the protection of the rest of us, and the only way that can assured is to lock them up for life.


I'm not suggesting that Bernardo be released. But let's be real: psychopaths are the minority here. Psychopaths are often dangerous individuals, and often need to be kept apart from society. 

On the other hand, psychopathy is not something people choose. Its cause is significantly genetic. Some while there is an argument to protect society, I'm not sure how much emphasis should be on punishment. Bernardo should never be released, but I don't think we, as a society, should be inflicting anguish on people.

Psychopathy actually is pretty interesting. Many psychopaths never commit a crime, but we have techniques available to us for screening for psychopaths as they are disproportionately likely to commit crimes, and often violent ones. Should we lock up psychopaths as a precautionary measure? Raises some interesting ethical issues.

But unless you think every pot dealer, car-thief, shoplifter, etc. is a psychopath, I think pointing to a few deeply anti-social psychopaths as an excuse to lock up more people longer is pretty weak.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Andrew, you seem determined to misunderstand me. I most certainly do not believe nor did I ever say anything to suggest that every pot dealer, car-thief, shoplifter, etc., is a psychopath, nor do I believe that they should be locked up for life. We were discussiing such people as terrorists and serial killers, not petty criminals, many of whom can, of course, be rehabilited and should, in my opinion, be given that opportunity.

I wish you would read my posts properly before you twist them to mean something I did not say and do not believe.

Thank you for the further information about Abdullah Kadhr. I don`t know where Carverman got his information from.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

This a money forum so when we discuss the value of life we take that into account. So in the case of Clifford Olsen we have discovered that he is a completely useless piece of crap.

So in these cases we should pull the plug and end the spending on this person or persons. 
Why is that so hard for people to grasp? 

In the end why can't we all agree in what is right instead of what is left or right wing? 

In my opinion both sides are often wrong instead of pushing for what is right. Sorry guys an open mind is hard to find on both sides of the spectrum.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> According to wikipedia (all necessary caveats), Abdullah's parents were residing in Ottawa at the time of his birth as his father was working for Bell North Research (later a part of Nortel). That's suggestive that he was born in Canada, but I could find no definitive statement to support or contradict that after a cursory search. They did later move to Bahrain.


Sigh! Being employed by the former "Big Nerd Ranch"..BNR...I am capable
of doing online and other types of research as well.

The Khadrs had 6 children..4 of them were born in Canada.
The other two....
(_and from convoluted info, I AM MAKING AN ASSUMPTION here..and you know
what they say about assumptions..it makes an "*** out of you and me"_. )
..were born outside of Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadr_family

Ahmed Khadr (the father), moved to Canada in 1977
His wife (Maha) was a Palestinian who lived most of her life in Ottawa.
Ahmed Khadr may have met her in Ottawa, when he worked for BNR as
he was a computer engineer..like myself.

Fast forward to 1988...Ahmed quit BNR and moved to Pehawar Pakistan
to become a regional director for a muslim charity that authorities believe
was a FRONT for channeling funding for al-Qaeda.

there is a lot more info online, but as I mention, it is rather convoluted
in regards to establishing whether in fact Abdullah was born here..
but based on online info..above, one can surmise...

Older Sister: Zaynab (probably) was not.
Older Brother: Abdullah (born 1981???); probably was not.
Although that is debatable,.because the father Ahmed moved to Canada in 1977.

But if you can believe the 2011 AP article below, where he is mentioned as being 29 at the time of this article, he would have been born in 1979, not 1981.
Now even though the father (Ahmed) moved to Canada in 1977..it is not
known that the wife and her two? children moved to Canada at the same
time. I would have thought that the father immigrated first, found a job,
and then sent for his wife and children later. 
Lets face it folks..without accurate birth records as we have in Canada..
there can be a year or two descrepancies in the actual time and place
of children born outside Canada..especially in the middle east, where
birth records may in fact be non-existant in war torn countries.


That would put the other 4 siblings:
Abdulrahman, Omar, Abdulkarem, Maryam (youngest sister); as born in Canada

here is some more interesting history on this family:
<quote from online source>
Maha Khadr, who settled in Toronto with her children after *her husband was killed in 2001*, recalled that al Qa'eda wives helped enforce the ban against make-up, music and high heels by reporting Afghan women who broke the law to the Taliban. It was bin Laden who advised Omar to blow up the Bamiyan Buddhas.

The Khadrs are the sons of the late Ahmed Said Khadr, who was closely associated with Osama bin Laden and allegedly raised money for al-Qaida.

<END OF ONLINE QUOTE>

http://www.policeone.com/terrorism/articles/3650601-Canadian-court-denies-terror-extradition-appeal/


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> Thank you for the further information about Abdullah Kadhr. I don`t know where Carverman got his information from.


It's gleaned from various online sources Karen..but a caveat here..
the information contained in online sources can come from many places.
Some may be factual, others may be heresay..and if it's a newspaper
report (information may not necessarily be accurate).

But if you sift through lots of online information, you can generally piece
together the information you are looking for piece by piece, like pieces
of a jigsaw puzzle, get most of it together..but still have a piece of two
missing...and there seems to be a "few" pieces missing with the Khadr family.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

dogcom said:


> In my opinion both sides are often wrong instead of pushing for what is right.* Sorry guys an open mind is hard to find on both sides of the spectrum*.


To have a true "open mind", one would have to be free of:
1: any bias
2: any distrust of certain racial and cultural lifestyles
3. any personal beliefs
4. any personal moral convictions
5. accept only facts to form a conclusion and discard extraneous information
that is from opinions and/or can't be established as fact


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

lol.

Well, Karen, it seemed like you misunderstood my point, too. If Omar Khadr is indeed guilty of murder, I'm not suggesting he be returned to Canada to go free. By all accounts, he's pretty messed up. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think he should be mistreated. It doesn't sound to me like he's a psychopath, so I'm not sure what Bernardo or Clifford Olson has to do with it. It could be that he poses a future threat to Canadian security, but I don't see that as an excuse to mistreat him, nor do I think that the death penalty could be justified in this case, even if one were to accept it as justifiable in other cases.

None of us know anything beyond the superficial about Omar Khadr. All I know is that he should be treated like a human being and a Canadian citizen, and be given due process.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> lol.
> 
> It could be that he poses a future threat to Canadian security, but I don't see that as an excuse to mistreat him, nor do I think that the death penalty could be justified in this case, even if one were to accept it as justifiable in other cases.
> 
> None of us know anything beyond the superficial about Omar Khadr. All I know is that he should be treated like a human being and a Canadian citizen, and be given due process.


You are replying to Karen, Andrew but let me throw in my .02c worth here.

Regardless of whether Omar was a "child soldier", he WAS groomed and prepared by several factors, to become a terrorist and cannot be considered on the same
level as just a street kid in the GTA. 

He lived in the GTA for a while, with his two brothers, who were involved with
terrorist activities in Afgan. The father (Ahmed) was also involved with terrorist funding, and (possibly) some fighting in Afghan, because he was (apparently)
"killed" there in 2001, but who knows ,with al-Qaeda connections, he could
very well still be an operative there. This whole family is dubious as far
as having any regard for Canada or loyalty to the Crown. 

Omar was trained in al-Qaeda training camps and obviously involved with
some kind of skirmish or fire fight with US Soldiers. Yes, he may have been
a "kid" or teenager at THAT TIME, but he knew full well what he was getting into and the cause he was fighting for.

The fact that he had a grenade, and threw it at a US medic, doesn't change
things in the fact that he IS a terrorist, and more than likely if released in Canada at some point in his life, will take up the struggle again.

Personally as far as I'm concerned, he should be kept in Gitmo indefinitely.
He is a lot older now and could be more dangerous if released.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Carver, that's a non-sequitur. I acknowledged that he could well be dangerous to Canadian security. I'm not sure how that justifies keeping him at Gitmo where has been and is likely to be mistreated. Maybe I'm too empathetic--he's about my age. He grew up in hell.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Carver, that's a non-sequitur. I acknowledged that he could well be dangerous to Canadian security. I'm not sure how that justifies keeping him at Gitmo where has been and is likely to be mistreated. Maybe I'm too empathetic--he's about my age. *He grew up in hell*.


Well...maybe..but I'm sure he wants to end up in "Muslim Heaven", with 72
virgins and all that Islam will offer "martyrs" of the cause.

In todays Ottawa Citizen, there was an article about some legal "shadow boxing" between Omar's defence lawyer(s) and the military tribunal at
Gitmo. Apparently there was some kind of pre-trial "deal" worked out,
if he pleaded guilty to the charges against him, which he did,
but in the end, the military tribunal was/is going to sentence him to
40 yrs at Gitmo...so the US has no intention of closing Gitmo for a 
long long time..because they have no place to keep these so called
terrorists. 

The tribunal relied on a key psychologist that determine that Omar was
infact a terrorists and given the opportunity attempt to continue to
re-offend in the future..so the military tribunal decided best to keep
him locked up..since they have to maintain Gitmo anyway for some
of the other "non combatants".

For Omar.."Heaven and those 72 virgins"...will just have to wait!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Do you honestly trust the US in this regard? They've shown nothing but bad faith in their handling of this case. Frankly, I'm appalled.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Do you honestly trust the US in this regard? They've shown nothing but bad faith in their handling of this case. Frankly, I'm appalled.


No I don't Andrew. Because Khadr is being held at Gitmo..not on US soil,
he's basically in "legal no-man's land"..(similar case to the the barb wired muddy strip of Hell in WWI), treading unknowingly over a legal minefield/mind field. 


Even though the US considered all the terrorists they captured in Afghan, 
non-combants, they are being held there because the US legal system cannot extend to non-US soil, as this is part of Cuba..and we all know from the 60s US-USSR missile crisis and Castro..what happened there ..
(Bay of Pigs invasion by the US). 

This is/was a formal US naval base, and they fully intend never to allow this chunk of Cuba to be repatriated, just like the "non-combants , as the US refers to, be ever released. 

In a post 9/11 world....America enforces the NEW WORLD ORDER. They can
fly in anywhere in the world, see (virtually)ants crawling on the ground from 
spy satellites with Perkin-Elmers super optics, and, if the situation warrants it,
smart bomb the hell out of any middle east despot that thinks he's got enough muscle to start spreading his wings.


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