# TFSA - what is CRA doing with overcontributions?



## jtmann (Nov 5, 2009)

Last year when TFSA was introduced I opened a few accounts at different institutions (TFSA savings accounts) and did some surfing across the accounts last year to keep the $5,000 initial TFSA deposit sitting in the bank that had the highest rates at the time. The total amount in all accounts at any one time does not exceed $5,000 limit (I surf my non-TFSA savings accounts regulalry to maximize the interest.)

Then I read that CRA might consider this as overcontribution and I stopped surfing. Note that the total amount in all my TFSA accounts at any one time did not (still does not) exceed $5,000 year 1 limit. Last year I spoke with CRA and they said to sit tight, because there was a lot of confusion on TFSAs last year and in my situation there may be forgiveness. 

Well now it's tax time. And I have not received any communciation from CRA (nor has my accountant) on my TFSA surfing.

Does anyone on the forum have any insight into what CRA is doing with situations like mine? 

Thanks


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## rookie (Mar 19, 2010)

my wife had a slight over contribution and this happened only in the last week of december. they have reduced the contribution room for this year by the amount of over contribution. we are not sure if we have to be proactive and pay the fine or wait for them to ask me for the fine. i will probably know when i get the notice of assessment.


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## cardhu (May 26, 2009)

jtmann ... I don't _know _what CRA will do, but I would not be surprised if they let you have a mulligan for 2009. 

rookie ... I assume you're joking about "proactively" sending money to CRA ... obviously, don't pay them any fines unless and until they send you a bill.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

JtMann - If I'm reading your post correctly then you went way over your contribution amount. I'm not sure what you mean by "surfing" however.

When you do a withdrawal from your TFSA then the amount gets added to your available room but ONLY STARTING THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

So if you contributed $5k in Jan of 2009, then in March 2009 you withdrew it all and contributed $5k again then you are now over by $5k.

That said, you can do TFSA transfers within institutions which means there was no withdrawal from the TFSA and you won't have any problem. Did you do this?

The actual account balance doesn't matter, it is the contribution amount that is relevant.

Rookie - The penalty is 1% of the over-contribution per month. I'm not sure how it gets applied - you might want to contact your financial institution.


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## rookie (Mar 19, 2010)

cardhu said:


> rookie ... I assume you're joking about "proactively" sending money to CRA ... obviously, don't pay them any fines unless and until they send you a bill.





Four Pillars said:


> Rookie - The penalty is 1% of the over-contribution per month. I'm not sure how it gets applied - you might want to contact your financial institution.


well the over contribution was by just over a 100$ and for half a month which makes the penalty a meagre 50c. i did talk to the person who was my financial advisor (wise enough to do the math resulting in over contribution). i wanted to see if rbc would absorb the penalty (before i knew it was 50c) for it was their mistake. this is what he had to say after consulting his "experts": 

the overcontribution remains in ur tfsa unless u withdraw it. the 1% interest is only till the end of the year.

so i brought up a hypothetical scenario - what if i over contribute by 10k on dec31? i would pay penalty of (1/31)%. starting jan1, there will be no penalty and then the 10k can grow interest free for the rest of my life. the contribution limit for next year would be 5k again. he said YES!!! but "I suggest not to do it. TFSA is still a new tool and the govt is still in the process of finding out practical implications such as these".

HE WAS SO WRONG!!!!

cos like i said, if i checked the epass a/c, it shows the contribution limit for 2010 at 4800 something considering the overpayment we had in 2009


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

What do you mean by surfing? That makes no sense to me. Please clarify.


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## explorer416 (Jun 11, 2010)

Hello all - long time reader, first time poster.

So I got a bill from the CRA this week for my TFSA over-contribution in 2009.

The TFSA was advertised as and understood by me as literally, a savings account in which the interest produced was tax free. I thought money could freely be deposited and withdrawn from the account as long as my deposit balance never exceeded $5000 in a single year. I contributed $5000 in January 2009 to a simple just-barely-more-than-zero interest producing account at my local President's Choice bank account as I needed the funds to be liquid and readily available.

In July 2009, I pulled out the entire $5k (I left the interest accumulated thus far) to contribute to the purchase of an investment property. In August 2009, I had some more money saved up, so I put $5000 back in. PC bank certainly didn't discourage me from doing this -- my understanding again was that this was like a savings account in which the interest produced was tax free!

In the period from August to December 2009, I received a grand total of $18.28 in interest payments from PC bank.

Late in December 2009, I learned that what I did would be considered an over-contribution by the CRA, so I did not follow through with my plan on contributing a further $5000 in January 2010.

Based on the advice listed in this thread ("obviously, don't pay them any fines unless and until they send you a bill"), I did nothing and hoped that I'd qualify for that "mulligan" referenced above.

This past week I got a bill from the CRA in the amount of $250 (1% of $5000 = $50 for 5 months (Aug to Dec)). I think it is just wrong that I would have to pay $250 of my money, espcially when I only made $18.28 on what I did. I certainly was not trying to abuse the system at all (if I was, I would put the money somewhere else). If the point of the penalty is to educate me, I feel that I am now already educated and guarantee that I won't make the mistake again. I am willing to give back the $18.28, but I just don't feel right giving the CRA $250! I certainly can't be the only person to make this mistake. The CRA is going to make a windfall on all these penalties - wasn't the goal of introducing the TFSA to encourage people to save; I'm going to have a net loss in 2009 with TFSA if I truly pay what the CRA is asking for.

Any advice on what I can do to ... um... get out of this $250 penalty? Do I have a case here? Can I just send in a cheque for $18.28 with a note that says "sorry, won't happen again"?

Thanks.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

Toronto Star Article on same:

http://www.thestar.com/business/art...h-penalties-on-tax-free-savings-accounts?bn=1


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

explorer416 said:


> Hello all - long time reader, first time poster.


Hello Explorer: welcome to the forum. 

You certainly were not alone in the confusion & believe it or not, even some bank employees were confused big time!!  I found this out when I went to my financial institution to sign papers to transfer my TFSA from another bank into my direct investing account. The bank employee had the same understanding you had & said: "just go to the other institution and close the account, that will be much faster than filling out forms". I said no, that that would be considered withdrawal and not a transfer and that the withdrawal portion could not be re-contributed until the following year and the employee continued to politely argue that I was mistaking TFSA rules with those of RRSP. He even read the TFSA rules on his PC and continued to say that I can withdraw & redeposit without tax consequences. Good thing I knew my facts, otherwise, I'm not sure the bank would have owned up to their mistake. 

On Monday, CTV's Pat Foran will address the issue of how to recover the TFSA taxes people were charged 'unfairly', so if you have time, watch him and/or check his website.

Good luck & happy money exploring!

http://www.torontowebsites.com/patforan/


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

Cal said:


> Toronto Star Article on same:
> 
> http://www.thestar.com/business/art...h-penalties-on-tax-free-savings-accounts?bn=1


WHat the??????? CRA penalized some one for transferring From a TFSA to another TFSA?

Sounds like someone at CRA doesn't understand the laws.

I understood you could transfer TFSA to TFSA and be alright.
I also understood that transfer from (whatever) to a TFSA = bad.

But to me the rules about withdrawing and redepositing are clear.
5K per calendar year. ANy withdrawal cannot be re deposited until NEXT calendar year.

If a bank told someone they could re deposit in the same year then the bank should reimburse the individual.

This article appears to be flawed. It makes it look like transfering from a non registered account to a TFSA is wrong. It is not. As long as the value is = to your limit, AND you declare capital gains you are fine.
I did this last year with no problems.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

bean, I am not sure I agree with everything you have said. But maybe I have misunderstood you.

Why do you mention a capital gains declaration in your post? You have no capital gains to report on ANY TFSA money.

I also disagree that transferring from something else to a TFSA is bad. Why would anyone care where the money is coming from?

I don't think banks are at fault. My bank was very clear about the rules for TFSA as I suspect all of them are. I think it's the users who have misunderstood. And the way people mismanage their money these days I really wouldn't be surprised if the fault were with them. In most of the examples mentioned in the 'the star' article, the users were at fault. No one else.

Sorry if I've misunderstood you.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

If one contributes investments in-kind from a non-registered to a TFSA account, then that is treated as having sold the investment under the unregistered account & potentially resulting in capital gains. I haven't done it myself, but I believe that is how it works.


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Why do you mention a capital gains declaration in your post? You have no capital gains to report on ANY TFSA money.



If you have investments in a non-registered account and you transfer into a registered account (RRSP or TFSA) you have a "deemed disposition" of those investments. They are considered sold for tax purposes and if you have a capital gain, you have to declare it an pay tax. If you have a capital loss you are not allowed to claim it.


For what it is worth, all these whiney morons who overcontributed should not be permitted to manage their own money. They are clearly not capable of understanding basic rules.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

My hunch is that for some unfortunate people, and as these are fairly new accounts. The banks in some instances have probably made an error in reporting the transfers as redemptions.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/tfsa-celi/trns-eng.html


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Yeah I had to pay $50 to the gov for my stupidity... oh well. I really was just moving the money from one institution to another.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

Royal, you misunderstood, or maybe I didnt type properly. Others have explained it to you on my behalf, thanks!

If an institution treated a transfer as a withdrawl then they should be held accountable.

But for everyone else (trust me I HATE siding with CRA) I am sorry but the rules are very clearly spelled out on CRA's web site.

One person even tries to blame PC financial of lieing to him because they called their TFSA a "high interest tax free savings account". He obviously didnt read the yellow highlight part that explains the penalty, nor did he read the footnote that explains adding withdrawls to next years contribution limit.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks everyone for clarifying. I think I understand. When the money is transferred from somewhere else, it is treated as sold and then cap gains are then payable. Makes perfect sense. But then bean wrote this...



bean438 said:


> If an institution treated a transfer as a withdrawl then they should be held accountable.


Huh? If the money was transferred from elsewhere into TFSA why should the bank be accountable? You can't enjoy tax sheltering on the pre-TFSA life of that money by thinking you can transfer it to TFSA and have it be protected. A non-registered GIC is a good example. If you bought it at $2K and it grew to $2500 then you owe tax on that $500 cap gain. What you do with that money afterwards is up to you. Just be ready to pay the tax on the $500 at tax time/year end.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> But then bean wrote this...
> 
> Huh? If the money was transferred from elsewhere into TFSA why should the bank be accountable?


The original Star article was referring to a TFSA-to-TFSA transfer, which should not attract any taxes, but did.
The case of Mr. Witold Borozynski is very clear. It was a direct transfer and doesn't seem like he got hold of the money anytime during the transfer, so it should be a qualified transfer as per CRA definition.
I think this is just the bank being ignorant or careless and reporting it as contribution to CRA.
I guess even in this day and age, it takes 2+ years to iron out the kinks in the accounting system.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I think what bean meant was if you deposit 5K and transfer it to another institution, and the institution making the transfer makes an error by refunding it, then transferring it for example, then the institution should be responsible.

Which they should. They are relatively new accounts, so the banks will probably make a few clerical errors.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thats exactly what i meant. The 2 words transfer, and withdrawl mean 2 different things.

It boggles my mind how many people are getting penalized over this.
In some cases people clearly didnt understand the rules, or the took the money out of account a and opened up account b rather than transferring from a to b.

It is no different than deregistering an RSP as opposed to transferring.

I also meant that if a bank made the error they should cough up the penalty.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

I left comments on 2 web sites linked in the Star article.

I basically sided with CRA and said people have to suck it up and pay the penalty.

Comments were deleted.

Do you all think these people should get relief from the penalty?
I dont. The rules were quite clear to me. 5K per year into the TFSA period. ANy money taken out will be added to NEXT YEAR'S contribution limit.

If the penalties are waived then shouldn't those of us who followed the rules get a bonus? 

Seriously I am sick of people trying to blame everyone else for their mistakes.

Obviously if the financial mad a clerical error then penalty should be waived, or absorbed by guilty institution.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

bean438 said:


> I left comments on 2 web sites linked in the Star article.
> 
> I basically sided with CRA and said people have to suck it up and pay the penalty.
> 
> Comments were deleted.


My interpretation while reading The Star article was that folks were penalized even though they a transfer i.e. a not withdraw and re-deposit.
It appeared that the mistake was the bank's.
But that could just be my interpretation.


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## allgood (May 17, 2010)

The first few examples in the Star article are people who took out money, then replaced it in the same account later. IMO, the rules were clear - money withdrawn can be replaced NEXT year. It wasn't small print. I was just getting started learning about how to manage my finances at the begining of 2009, and I fully admit I knew next to nothing when I opened my TFSA - yet this wasn't a difficult concept to grasp. People who couldn't be bothered to read the BIG print should pay their penalties.

I do agree that if the bank reported a transfer incorrectly, the bank should be responsible.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

I agree that people ought to have read the rules more closely, but as even 'some' bank employees were confused, then I'm not surprised at the rest of the population.

Anyway, it appears there is a 'ray of hope' to recover the tax penalty for those that did not go beyond the annual $5k limit.

Check "TFSA Surprises" video.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/consumer/#TopVideoAn


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

Another twist on this issue:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...to-costly-penalties-for-70000/article1604046/



Apparently even a transfer from TFSA to TFSA within the same year is considered excess? Huh?

So that means after 5 years I decide to transfer 25K (no interest for simplicity) to another institution, I get dinged for 25K over contribution?

How are you supposed to transfer then if you cant do it in the same year?


I think this srticle is in erro, and part of the reason there is so much mis information out there. If you read the CRA web site a TFSA to TFSA transfer is clearly allowed.


http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/tfsa-celi/trns-eng.html

The article says you cant "pull" the money out, and transfer it within the same year.
Pulling the money out is not a transfer, it is a withdrawl and penalties apply.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

bean438 said:


> Apparently even a transfer from TFSA to TFSA within the same year is considered excess? Huh?


You mean eh, don't you? 

The rules clearly indicate that i) one is free to have as many TFSA accounts as one wishes, so long as the annual contribution does not exceed $5K & ii) that transfers within financial institutions can be done at any time of the year with NO tax consequence. The only fee one might have to pay, is a 'transfer out' fee charged by the institution - typically $100. 

Where people may be making a mistake is by withdrawing the money from one account and redepositing it into another.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

bean438 said:


> Another twist on this issue:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...to-costly-penalties-for-70000/article1604046/
> 
> ...


You're right - I noticed the same error when I read it.

On a related topic, I was quite surprised when I read that this affected 70,000 people. I don't know how many Canadians have TFSAs but I just didn't think there would be so many people with a lot of activity in their accounts.

I actually wrote about this last week - and I'm pretty sure my facts are correct 


http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/tfsa-over-contribution-penalty-fix/


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Speaking as an average Joe (who didn't have this problem), I really think the difference between withdrawing and transferring in this case is NOT clear to the average person. I personally don't see the difference. If transfers are allowed (as toronto.gal states from the rulebook) then withdrawals and redeposits should be allowed. Just that the redeposit shouldn't take place in the same year. But I think the average joe does not really understand the difference between these two things when it comes to the TFSA. And the banks may not always know what their customer is doing with the TFSA money when they withdraw it from their account. They might assume the money is going to be spent, not concerning themselves with what the person does with the money after that.

Honestly, I think the solution to this problem is to forbid multiple TFSA's at different institutions. The bank should be able to type in your SIN in a nifty online (secure password access to banks only, of course) tool to check if the applicant already has a TFSA, before granting a new one. If they find that the person truly has no other TFSA's, only then would one be granted, this goes in the database and then other banks can check and see it. Because frankly, the confusion caused by this issue far outweighs the benefit of being able to have multiple TFSA's. IMHO.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Speaking as an average Joe (who didn't have this problem), I really think the difference between withdrawing and transferring in this case is NOT clear to the average person. I personally don't see the difference. If transfers are allowed (as toronto.gal states from the rulebook) then withdrawals and redeposits should be allowed. Just that the redeposit shouldn't take place in the same year. But I think the average joe does not really understand the difference between these two things when it comes to the TFSA. And the banks may not always know what their customer is doing with the TFSA money when they withdraw it from their account. They might assume the money is going to be spent, not concerning themselves with what the person does with the money after that.
> 
> Honestly, I think the solution to this problem is to forbid multiple TFSA's at different institutions. The bank should be able to type in your SIN in a nifty online (secure password access to banks only, of course) tool to check if the applicant already has a TFSA, before granting a new one. If they find that the person truly has no other TFSA's, only then would one be granted, this goes in the database and then other banks can check and see it. Because frankly, the confusion caused by this issue far outweighs the benefit of being able to have multiple TFSA's. IMHO.



Nonsense. If you use this logic, then we should only be allowed to have one rrsp account as well.

This isn't rocket science. The "transfer of registered assets" concept has been around at least since RRSPs were invented. It also applies to RESPs, RIFs, LIFs, LIRAs etc.

You are right, however that if someone withdraws money from one bank and contributes to another - there is no way for that institution to know. Fair enough, but it's still up to the person to know the rules.

If I overcontribute to my RRSP I pay a penalty (ok, there is a $2k grace amount). If I over-contribute to the RESP ($50k lifetime limit) then I pay a penalty etc etc.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Why does the average joe need more than one TFSA? I can't think of why this is beneficial.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Speaking as an average Joe (who didn't have this problem), I really think the difference between withdrawing and transferring in this case is NOT clear to the average person. I personally don't see the difference. If transfers are allowed (as toronto.gal states from the rulebook) then withdrawals and redeposits should be allowed. Just that the redeposit shouldn't take place in the same year. But I think the average joe does not really understand the difference between these two things when it comes to the TFSA. And the banks may not always know what their customer is doing with the TFSA money when they withdraw it from their account. They might assume the money is going to be spent, not concerning themselves with what the person does with the money after that.
> 
> Honestly, I think the solution to this problem is to forbid multiple TFSA's at different institutions. The bank should be able to type in your SIN in a nifty online (secure password access to banks only, of course) tool to check if the applicant already has a TFSA, before granting a new one. If they find that the person truly has no other TFSA's, only then would one be granted, this goes in the database and then other banks can check and see it. Because frankly, the confusion caused by this issue far outweighs the benefit of being able to have multiple TFSA's. IMHO.



"If transfers are allowed (as toronto.gal states from the rulebook) then withdrawals and redeposits should be allowed. Just that the redeposit shouldn't take place in the same year."


Umm, thats what the rules are. You are free to take your money out tax free at any time. You are free to redeposit the money into the TFSA. If you do it the same year, you get dinged. If you wait until the next year, you can redeposit the amount, plus that years 5K limit.


Ban multiple TFSA's? No way.

The bottom line is that other than a clerical error, people made bad choices because they do not know the rules. 
The rules could not be more clear. I do not consider myself to have an intelligence level above anyone else, and I was able to figure it out.

People who got dinged should take responsibility, stop blaming the government and pay up.

Believe me I have a rea HARD time being onside with CRA on this one, but thems the facts.

I emailed Carrick about his column. He responded, and acknowledged the confusion, and has a retraction/clarification in todays paper .


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Why does the average joe need more than one TFSA? I can't think of why this is beneficial.


Not every account can meet every need.

I might want a portion of my TFSA money at ING to serve as my emergency fund.

I might want some of my TFSA at Questrade to be part of my retirement fund - this could have stocks, etfs which I can't get at ING.

I might have money invested in an open account somewhere and rather than do a transfer to a different institution (which costs $$), I might want to just contribute to a TFSA at the same financial institution.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I see what you mean. Very interesting. Thanks!


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

An update for those who may still be confused. 

"The big banks also have a role in the confusion." *Agreed!*

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ay-forgive-tfsa-rule-breakers/article1606924/


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

My favourite part is this:

"People also got themselves into difficulties with CRA by withdrawing money from a tax-free account and then putting it in a TFSA at another financial institution. It’s perfectly fine to do what’s called a “direct transfer” of a TFSA from one firm to another, just as people commonly do with registered retirement savings plans. The problem lies in first withdrawing cash from a TFSA and then moving it to a new account in the same year. "

Yep. That solidifies what bean has been saying all along. This is very clear.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

It is absolutely crystal clear, and I dont belong to Mensa.

Withdrawing and then redepositing is for all intensive purposes the same thing as a direct transfer, and I have no doubt that MOST of the people did not intentionally try to scam the system.

For whatever reason these are the rules, and they must be obeyed.

If you borrow to invest, you cannot co mingle funds in a line of credit, even if you have a crystal clear paper trail of your investments that correspond with the borrowed amount. You must separate personal use and invested money.

While I kinda sympathize with these people, I do not think that there should be any relief.

WHat really bothers me is the shifting of blame to the government for trying to initiate a "cash grab", or a conspiracy by financial institutions to line the pockets of the rich, blah blah blah.

Bottom line is you didn't fully understand what you were doing, and CRA is just trying to apply the tax act as the laws are written.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

Taxpayers who are being charged a penalty for TFSA over contributions that are a result of a reasonable error can apply under specific provisions that provide relief under the TFSA legislation.

http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/apply-for-waiver-of-tfsa-over-contribution-penalties/

Rob Carrick wrote that the CRA may provide relief on a case-by-case basis.

https://secure.globeadvisor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/gam/20100617/CARRICK17ATL


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Probably not worth my while, I did the "transfer" it was clearly my mistake as I didn't read the rules fully. I did it in January 2009 when information was pretty darn sparse at the time.

I got taxed $50.00 for moving my $5000, I figured I would just write them a cheque and forget it ever happened.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

jamesbe said:


> Probably not worth my while, I did the "transfer" it was clearly my mistake as I didn't read the rules fully. I did it in January 2009 when information was pretty darn sparse at the time.
> 
> I got taxed $50.00 for moving my $5000, I figured I would just write them a cheque and forget it ever happened.


I wouldn't apply for a waiver for $50 either. Applying for a penalty waiver may be worth their time for those taxpayers who have been dinged a much larger amount.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

jamesbe said:


> Probably not worth my while, I did the "transfer" it was clearly my mistake as I didn't read the rules fully. I did it in January 2009 when information was pretty darn sparse at the time.
> 
> I got taxed $50.00 for moving my $5000, I figured I would just write them a cheque and forget it ever happened.


The first post I have read, that someone stated they made the mistake, and they will own up to it. You have integrity jamesbe.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

It sounds like the Minister has directed CRA to be lenient with over-contributors for 2009. See announcement June 25. http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/whtsnw/tms/jntsttmnt-eng.html

You still have to respond to CRA's statement with an explanation of how/why you overcontributed.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

That is disappointing. WHat about those who followed the rules?

Maybe the 70K people should pay the penalties and forward the money to those who followed the rules.

I am very surprised CRA will be lenient.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

This is probably nothing more than a political move.


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## bean438 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thats exactly it.

Most of these people never exceeded the 5K limit in the calendar year per say, BUT rules are rules. And the rules were not that complicated.


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