# Afghanistan........what a disaster.



## sags (May 15, 2010)

No doubt about it. The US withdrawal in Afghanistan is a total disaster.

People are blaming President Biden, as I think they rightly should. He is after all the Commander in Chief.

He signed off on the plan, but the real failure is in the US military leadership. What kind of a plan for withdrawal........is no plan at all ?

Canada now has to scramble to get people out, and has limited means to do it. In fact......virtually no means to do it effectively.

The Taliban is doing as expected, hunting down anyone who aided the allies and torturing and killing them.

They have had public executions in front of thousands forced to watch. They are dragging 12 year old girls off to marry Taliban fighters.

Trump's peace deal was a joke. You never give a concrete timeline for withdrawal. It should all depend on what the enemy does.

When the US finally left........they not only took out the 2500 troops, but also 15,000 contractors and sub-contractors who ran the airport and infrastructure.

They didn't even leave security forces, air traffic controllers or maintenance crews at the airport. So there was no way for people to get out by air.

Small wonder the Afghans gave up when they saw that. They realized they were going to fight to the death or run and hide as best they could.

This is perhaps the greatest failure of security, intelligence, and the US military since 9/11.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

It was announced long time ago that May 1 troops will begin withdrawal.
Canada failed to prepare.
The blame for a fate of those who helped Canada is entirely on Canadian government and military.
There was over 6 months of time to prepare prior to May 1 (and additional 3 months before this disaster) to decrease amount of staff to minimum, to help those who worked with Canadian forces.
Attempts to aid those Afghan interpreters who worked with Canadian Forces have been going on for 3 years now. The voices were becoming louder and louder over last 3 months.
Government and military completely ignored that. Their ineptitude cost a lot of blood.

The rise of Taliban was unfortunately predictables. US military messed up. How do you pull entire military before withdrawing everyone else? Withdrawal of all allied staff, forces, contractors, and those who helped them should have been done prior to giving up control over the region. Major screwup


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

damian13ster said:


> The rise of Taliban was unfortunately predictables. US military messed up. How do you pull entire military before withdrawing everyone else? Withdrawal of all allied staff, forces, contractors, and those who helped them should have been done prior to giving up control over the region. Major screwup


You're making the assumption that they intended to withdraw allied staff, forces and contractors. That's wrong. The withdrawal was done like this by design, not by failure of military planning.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

The British invaded Afghanistan in the 19th century and it was a disaster. Russia tried in the 20th century and it was such a disaster it helped bring down the Soviet Union. The US tried in the 21st century and look what happened. I hope Canada at least gets its people out in 1 piece but given the ineptitude of the present government who knows. Was there a clean way to end the war and leave the country in good shape? I wish there was but suspect it was going to be a mess no matter what anyone did.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The only way to have won that war would be to commit to half a century of occupation and an even larger allocation of resources than had already been done. Not sure what the end game for the Taliban/Afghanistan is.... eventually colour-revolutioned? Perpetual backwater?

I saw an interview on CBC with an Afghan Canadian talking about his remaining family in Afghanistan. They are hiding the young women in their family in a bunker in the basement of their house, because the expectation is the Taliban will take any 'of age' (>13 years old) girls who are unmarried as 'wives'. Not sure why anyone is calling it marriage. That is rape and sexual slavery.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Transcript of Taliban’s first news conference in Kabul*
Taliban spokesperson addresses the public in first conference following the armed group’s takeover of Afghanistan.








Transcript of Taliban’s first news conference in Kabul


Taliban spokesperson addresses the public in first conference following the armed group’s takeover of Afghanistan.




www.aljazeera.com




The Taliban in Afghanistan said on Tuesday that they wanted peaceful relations with other countries and would respect the rights of women within "the limits of Islam," as they held their first official news briefing since their takeover of Kabul. Taliban leaders also said they won’t seek revenge on those who worked with the Afghan government or foreign countries, saying they would assure the safety of contractors and translators who worked for international forces. "We do not want Afghanistan to be a battlefield any longer," the movement's main spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, said.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

2151 et seq. and 22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.). The following countries are designated as major non-NATO allies: *Afghanistan* (see § 126.1(g) of this subchapter), Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Republic of Korea, Thailand, and Tunisia.








22 CFR § 120.32 - Defense service.







www.law.cornell.edu


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

They say that now...


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> 2151 et seq. and 22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.). The following countries are designated as major non-NATO allies: *Afghanistan* (see § 126.1(g) of this subchapter), Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Republic of Korea, Thailand, and Tunisia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was the old Afghan regime. Because NATO will not recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government of the country (for now, at least), that nullifies their inclusion as an ally.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

We were warned by the Russians who wasted nine years there. But GWB still gathered the coalition of the willing and marched right in.

Canada joined because we had already rejected going into Iraq so we didn't want to look too uncooperative to the US.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Tostig said:


> We were warned by the Russians who wasted nine years there. But GWB still gathered the coalition of the willing and marched right in.
> 
> Canada joined because we had already rejected going into Iraq so we didn't want to look too uncooperative to the US.


Russia never fought a war in Afghanistan, Soviet Union did.








Fractured friendships: Soviet-Afghan War veterans make their way through instability and conflict


Thirty years on from the end of the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, war veterans are having to deal with contemporary conflicts in their search for friendship and recognition.




www.opendemocracy.net


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Russia never fought a war in Afghanistan, Soviet Union did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True! It wasn't Russia, but USSR... but Americans were warned! Smart countries earn on othe mistakes, stupid want to repeat others' mistakes 



> Russia tried in the 20th century and it was such a disaster it helped bring down the Soviet Union.


Again... Russia didn't participated in any war in Afgan....and it didn't help to bring down USSR, Chernobyl did!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Of course Russians were fighting in Afghanistan. It was a war directed and funded by Moscow, and Gorbachev cut funding and pulled their forces out.

The USSR fall was started by Lech Walesa a Polish union leader. He was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize for his work.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with much of what has been written and researched above. It's all rather depressing. History has often sided with those who have been invaded, rather than the invaders! 
Viet Nam was not much different - French, the US, even China had a war with them in the North, but Viet Nam prevailed.
Regarding Afghanistan, there will be a large number of young people who will, at the least, remember what life was when the Taliban were not (fully) in control / power of the country - and I am hoping that that institutional memory will help minimize the extent of the damage that the Taliban will exert. 
Hopefully, some of those young soldiers will become leaders who will become more moderate than the older leaders who are seem so single-minded. Perhaps it's all just a pipe-dream tho


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

What is disturbing is when Biden was asked a few questions about his Afghan program he had no answer but promised to get back to them in a few days.
Really? That is your plan? You haven't worked out what to do but will get back to us in a few days?
It's worth remembering Trump already had a deal made to leave in May with all parties agreeing but Biden reneged at the last minute, just to prevent Trump from being right, now he presents the world with this mess. I don't see how even a yellow dog Democrat can have any faith in the Biden administration after this.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

What's interesting is that both Russia and more significantly China are getting much closer to recognizing the Taliban as a legitimate government in Afghanistan - not likely so much because they are in agreement with Taliban policies, but because Afghanistan has a huge amount of mineral riches. I would expect China's government is working the diplomatic channels to get access, quickly, to those mineral riches which it will add to the many annexed/indebted countries that it already has in itsAfghanistan pocket.
I also wonder how quickly the Taliban would be ready to sell Afghanistan's resources to China or anyone else. 








The Taliban are sitting on $1 trillion worth of minerals the world desperately needs


The swift fall of Afghanistan to Taliban fighters has triggered a humanitarian crisis, with thousands trying to flee the country. It's also brought renewed focus on Afghanistan's vast untapped mineral wealth, resources that could transform its economic prospects if ever developed.




www.cnn.com


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

dubmac said:


> What's interesting is that both Russia and more significantly China are getting much closer to recognizing the Taliban as a legitimate government in Afghanistan - not likely so much because they are in agreement with Taliban policies, but because Afghanistan has a huge amount of mineral riches. I would expect China's government is working the diplomatic channels to get access, quickly, to those mineral riches which it will add to the many annexed/indebted countries that it already has in itsAfghanistan pocket.
> I also wonder how quickly the Taliban would be ready to sell Afghanistan's resources to China or anyone else.
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing new there.
this one is from 2011
As foreign troops withdraw, will foreign miners move in? They’ve known of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth for a century but it hasn’t been safe or easy enough to extract it. Now Western companies, including Australian miners, are behind the geopolitical eight-ball as China and India lock up mining rights.





Mining Afghanistan - ABC Radio National


As foreign troops withdraw, will foreign miners move in? They’ve known of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth for a century but it hasn’t been safe or easy enough to extract it. Now Western companies, including Australian miners, are behind the geopolitical eight-ball as China and India lock up mining...




www.abc.net.au


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Past projects have failed, but the Chinese may try again.

I don't think Afghanistan is going to be stable under Taliban rule. There are only about 60,000 of them to secure a wide area.

Tribal conflict will ensue, Iran and other countries will start to move in. One battle in Afghanistan ends and another one begins.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Nothing new there.


I'm suggesting that what _is_ new, is China's aggressive territorial policies, and the extent to which they will go to secure an increasing supply of resources from outside China. They are making many incursions along their borders.
That said, as both you and Sags have indicated, this is not new - and it likely won't end well for China or any other country/army who tries.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Interesting to watch how quickly the online epidemiologists become online foreign affairs experts on afghanistan

I feel like I'm watching a game of telephone unfold. Flying home after 16hrs on station we write a report and brief intel. Intel, who witness very little first hand, collate and redistribute the information to those who need to know. By the time some of the information trickles out the mass media it's a completely different story. Notice how none of the online foreign affairs experts mention al-Qaeda anymore. You forgot about them didn't you

People seem much more likely to accept and spread second hand information when they don't have first hand information


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

dubmac said:


> I'm suggesting that what _is_ new, is China's aggressive territorial policies, and the extent to which they will go to secure an increasing supply of resources from outside China. They are making many incursions along their borders.
> That said, as both you and Sags have indicated, this is not new - and it likely won't end well for China or any other country/army who tries.


You've already mentioned that China has been adding to its pocket a number of countries by loans as part of the belt and road initiative. Afghanistan is just another link. Their success will depend on how they deal with the Taliban and other warlords/remnants of the Northern Alliance. If China is willing to just pay money for access, I doubt they need to actually bring in forces if they are willing to deal with everyone and accept some loss due to some inefficiencies, i.e. bribes.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Between 2013 and 2016, the US gave Afghan forces more than 600,000 light weapons, such as M16 and M4 rifles and nearly 80,000 vehicles, as well as night vision goggles, radios and more, according to a 2017 Government Accountability Office report. Even more recently, the US Defense Department supplied the Afghan military with 7,000 machine guns, 4,700 Humvees and more than 20,000 grenades between 2017 and 2019, a report from the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction found.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Peace deal with the taliban had the condition of no attacking American troops and not dealing with terrorists like al qeuda. So far those two points have been upheld.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Yes. Evacuation of Canadian citizens and interpreters who helped our forces is led by Taliban.
It might actually turn out to be better for them, as Canadian government is incompetent and failed to do anything on the subject in past 3 years (when the pressure to get the interpreters help has started).
Taliban for a short period of time will want to appear to be 'civilized', at least until media coverage of Afghanistan ends.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Taliban will return Afghanistan to an Islamic state and say they will honor rights......in accordance with Islam.

If their words are trustworthy, then I would trust them at their word, not what we hope their words might conveniently mean.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are many more people in Afghanistan who will be the targets of the Taliban than manage to find a way out.

It isn't just interpreters, but also bankers, lawyers, judges, municipal leaders, police officers, teachers, and anyone else who aided the US or NATO forces.

In the Taliban's minds.....for 20 years they aided the enemy in the assault on Taliban fighters and their families, and are not going to be so easily forgiven.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Well, it is too bad that Canadian government literally left them to death.
They had 3 years! That's how long ago voices to get interpreters and staff out of there lasted for.
But hey, let's wave to the press during election campaign while sending people who helped Canadian Forces to die.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I agree........it is shameful there was so little planning involved, but Canada didn't know that Biden was going to suddenly pull out with no plan at hand.

Trump signed the peace deal, and the Canadian government should have started moving people out, but millions of Afghans want out and that isn't a realistic goal for Canada. The Canadian government put too much trust into the ability of the US to plan for an orderly withdrawal of forces.

The biggest mistake was made when we went into Afghanistan.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Anyone who read media after US election knew it will happen.
Yet our intelligence agencies, minister of defense, and prime minister didn't?
They should be fired if that is true.
And if they let those people there to die because they simply didn't give a ****........
Not talking about millions of Afghans. Talking about interpreters and those who directly helped Canadian Forces. There were calls to evacuate them long time ago, yet government doesn't give a rats *** about them and left them to die.
People representing Canada don't have a single inch of spine between them.

We should airlift Trudeau, Sajjan, and any army decision makers who had a say in this decision, and trade them to the Taliban for actual heroes that fought and helped to fight for this nation.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A Canadian woman trapped in Afghanistan said armed Taliban came to her house several times looking for her Afghan husband.

He is a doctor who treated wounded US and NATO soldiers. Fortunately, he is in hiding elsewhere in Afghanistan.

The Taliban is asking people at checkpoints why they are going to the airport. 

There is only one logical answer and so they take down their names and addresses, refuse their passage and send them away.

They will be dealt with later, away from the cameras and media.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am not sure that Canada could simply whisk Afghans away without the approval of the standing Afghan government.

They likely would have had to been clandestine operations and even the US may not have allowed that.

Even if possible, it would have been very limited in scope, and the details won't be revealed to the public.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

For all we know, the Canadian government could have been giving passage to as many Afghans as they could, without raising alarm bells.

Just yesterday, a Canadian reporter on the scene said the Canadian government told Canadians to show up at the Kabul airport wearing red to identify them.

The word got out and thousands of Aghans showed up at the airport gates wearing red. 

It created a scene where the Canadians couldn't be identified in the crowd and couldn't get to the gate, so they didn't get out.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

That is completely not true. You don't have to have permission of local government to get people out to save them from retribution of......local government. That's ridiculous.

They screwed up and left people for death.
Trudeau, Sajjan, and whoever else is responsible and accountable should be traded to Taliban for as many good people as we can get for them. They are a disgrace


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

sags said:


> The biggest mistake was made when we went into Afghanistan.


While I agree, I also don't really think Canada had much of a choice in the situation. NATO is probably the most important defensive treaty Canada belongs to, and when the American's put out the Article 5 bat-signal (for the first and only time it has ever been used), we really didn't have a lot of flexibility how to respond.

Our involvement was only to fulfil our obligations under NATO and not for any direct national interest in Afghanistan or Al-Quaeda the Taliban or any other **** over there. The real outrage is having Trump dissing NATO and pissing on other NATO countries after our lot got killed, injured and otherwise f**ed-up pursuing their stupid crusade.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I agree......we were basically forced into a stupid war.

We lost 158 fellow Canadians, had thousands suffer injuries and 191 veterans took their own lives after returning.

The US will go to war again, because that is what they do. War and all that military Rambo stuff is in their DNA.

Years ago I saw a t-shirt in the US that had a picture of the US flag with a fighter jet flying over it., and words that said........_these colors don't run._

Yea ......whatever.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

gardner said:


> While I agree, I also don't really think Canada had much of a choice in the situation. *NATO is probably the most important defensive treaty Canada belongs to,* and when the American's put out the Article 5 bat-signal (for the first and only time it has ever been used), we really didn't have a lot of flexibility how to respond.
> 
> Our involvement was only to fulfil our obligations under NATO and not for any direct national interest in Afghanistan or Al-Quaeda the Taliban or any other **** over there. The real outrage is having Trump dissing NATO and pissing on other NATO countries after our lot got killed, injured and otherwise f**ed-up pursuing their stupid crusade.


Defence from whom?! From US?! In any case there is a NORAD!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

NORAD is really just an agreement to allow the US control over Canadian airspace for collective defense.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> NORAD is really just an agreement to allow the US control over Canadian airspace for collective defense.


So, it's enough! Why Canada should be member of NATO at all?! 
Switzerland, Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden aren't NATO members and are doing fine!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ukraine isn't a NATO member and they got invaded by Russia. 

NATO recently met with Ukraine officials and increased their military activity around Russia as a show of force.

If NATO accepts Ukraine as a member, Putin will have to give Crimea back.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Ukraine isn't a NATO member and they got invaded by Russia.
> 
> NATO recently met with Ukraine officials and increased their military activity around Russia as a show of force.
> 
> If NATO accepts Ukraine as a member, Putin will have to give Crimea back.


Yeah, right lol . You live in some imaginary world 🤣. 

“
Inviting Ukraine to join NATO would be a significant strategic mistake. Bringing that nation — or another former Soviet republic, such as Georgia — into the alliance would not improve European security. Quite the contrary.”




__





Redirect Notice






www.google.ca





Also “ Immediately after the adoption of the law (racist language law) Hungarian Minister of Foreign Affairs Péter Szijjártó announced that Hungary would block all further integration of Ukraine into NATO and the European Union and offered to "guarantee that all this will be painful for Ukraine in future." 

And why do you compare Ukraine to Canada?! Do you think that after QC or AB will separate from Canada and would like to join US, NATO will interfere?! Lol


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Least surprising news of the day:








Kabul explosions: At least 72 dead, including U.S. military personnel, officials say - National | Globalnews.ca


Global Affairs Canada said there were no reports yet of Canadians being harmed by the twin blasts near the international airport.




globalnews.ca





Luckily the victim numbers don't appear as high as I personally feared seeing the crowds


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Just a day after PM said they will stay longer than Aug 31 if necessary:









‘They tear at our souls’: Canada ends Kabul evacuation effort as many left behind - National | Globalnews.ca


Roughly 3,700 people we’re evacuated by Canada during its operation, though that number will be confirmed in the later days, officials said Thursday.




globalnews.ca






"Eyre called the end of efforts “heartbreaking” and said he wished Canada could have stayed longer.

An official from Global Affairs Canada indicated some Canadians were left behind and encouraged them to reach out. They did not provide firm numbers on how many remain in the country.

At the same time, officials said it is now up to individuals to try to keep themselves and their families safe."


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

More US troops just died in combat in Kabul.

So I guess this means that US is now going to spend another $100 billion (or whatever) in Afghanistan.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> "Eyre called the end of efforts “heartbreaking” and said he wished Canada could have stayed longer.
> 
> An official from Global Affairs Canada indicated some Canadians were left behind and encouraged them to reach out. They did not provide firm numbers on how many remain in the country.
> 
> At the same time, officials said it is now up to individuals to try to keep themselves and their families safe."


I was in Afghanistan when Canada "officially" left in 2014

Canadian military members have been advocating for these evacuations for over 7 years now

Anyone in power saying they wished they could help now is a disgrace


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

james4beach said:


> More US troops just died in combat in Kabul.
> 
> So I guess this means that US is now going to spend another $100 billion (or whatever) in Afghanistan.


The US hasn't had a soldier killed in Afghanistan since February 2020.

Many countries have already left and those who advocated to stay a bit longer are likely going to leave as well now.

The Canadian military were conducting "quiet" sorties to get as many out as possible. I think we did the best we could. 

I read there was a bunch of students stuck in Afghanistan during a trip there. WTF was that school and the parents thinking.....sending their kids into a war zone ?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

m3s said:


> I was in Afghanistan when Canada "officially" left in 2014
> 
> Canadian military members have been advocating for these evacuations for over 7 years now
> 
> Anyone in power saying they wished they could help now is a disgrace


I heard those calls loud and clear for past 3 years.
Completely ignored by government.
They grew increasingly more intense in 2021 (actual mainstream radio, politicians, etc.).
Still completely ignored.
Government of Canada just decided to let those people die


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> More US troops just died in combat in Kabul.
> 
> So I guess this means that US is now going to spend another $100 billion (or whatever) in Afghanistan.


And somebody is doing huge $$$$ on all this insanity


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I guess we were following through on our NATO commitments, as other countries also did.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

ISIS commanders best write out their last will and testament.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

No NATO commitments state that you can't give visas to interpreters after they help out your forces. 
Especially since vast majority of military withdrew in 2014


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> And somebody is doing huge $$$$ on all this insanity


Yes exactly. The military related industry (and contractors) love all of this. Endless money for companies when there is perpetual warfare.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> No NATO commitments state that you can't give visas to interpreters after they help out your forces.
> Especially since vast majority of military withdrew in 2014


We did remove some.....but the Harper government refused visas for many others.

The Afghan government also controlled who was allowed to leave the country via exit visas.

Up until the last few days, people wanting to leave were scrambling for an Afghan exit visa, but once the government collapsed and the President fled, the people no longer required an exit visa.





__





Information on Afghan Visas for American Citizens


Please note that the U.S. Embassy Consular Section does not assist U.S. citizens in acquiring Afghan visas. The information below is provided as a




af.usembassy.gov













Afghan interpreters to get second chance to come to Canada


Prime Minister’s Office orders review of cases of Afghan citizens who helped Canadian diplomats and soldiers but were snubbed in their bids to come to Canada.




www.thestar.com


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yes exactly. The military related industry (and contractors) love all of this. Endless money for companies when there is perpetual warfare.


This is why LMT likely is my best performing stock during last 10 years .
and this is exactly why "The military related industry" is completely fine with Putin


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> This is why LMT likely is my best performing stock during last 10 years .
> and this is exactly why "The military related industry" is completely fine with Putin


I worked in the military-linked industry and yeah, it's very lucrative. Around me, some people were becoming insanely wealthy. For them, war is lots of fun. Millions of dollars in contracts. Hundreds of millions of dollars in business opportunities for US contractors and small businesses.

As I awakened to this over the years, I decided that I'm not comfortable with the ethics of it, so I walked away from a massive salary + benefits which _would_ have made me very wealthy if I stuck with it for 10 or 20 years.

Meanwhile I have a couple friends in Ottawa who are deep into this military industry. They are on the brink of winning millions of dollars in contracts... war will be very fun for them. They will become rich. There's no way in hell that I'll be joining that party.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I was on a NATO base that employed many Afghans. Locals made the bricks and infrastructure and did service jobs like laundry, cleaning and food

The US built up their side while I was there and they contract Americans for everything including flying in plywood stamped with Marines logos. Probably the most expensive "military grade" plywood in the world when they could just buy local brick for less. The US has mastered the art of transferring taxes to US contractors.

Just look at the recent infrastructure bill amendment on crypto that was veto'd by an 87 senator because he didn't get his unrelated $80B for his military lobbyist friends


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

No point in doing it! Last 15 years I worked in IT company who was producing and selling soft (to about 150 MF/Seg funds companies). Vast majority of new developments was just to increase hidden fees, in other words, scamming naive Canadians


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Looks like ISIS is at it again. I guess we wouldn't consider them our brothers - right?

Kabul Airport Attack Kills 12 U.S. Service Members, at Least 60 Afghans.

ltr


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Typical NATO tactics.... military blowing up some bridge, then some contractor (like HAL) is building a new one..... For everything taxpayers are paying LOL


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Looks like ISIS is at it again. I guess we wouldn't consider them our brothers - right?
> 
> Kabul Airport Attack Kills 12 U.S. Service Members, at Least 60 Afghans.
> 
> ltr


It was very predictable..... Israel has same issue for decades.... you withdraw all troops from Gaza and you get thousands of rockets on your civilians.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Reading some of the stories on the media, one has to wonder what people were thinking that are trapped in Afghanistan now.

Stories of visiting extended family, getting married, on student trips, visiting grandparents.....during a war the Taliban were winning and a pandemic.

One guy worked for Canada during the war and was retrieved from Afghanistan. Then he went back for a visit with his wife and 5 kids and they are trapped. He is now a target for the Taliban militants who are searching for people like him. That is why we got him out.......not so he could go back again.

Help and come get us......keeps repeating over and over, in Lebanon years ago, on cruise ships and Latin America during Covid.........

One of the Canadians in prison in China was going back and forth between China and North Korea. What was he doing in that neighborhood ?

It makes it difficult to "save" people when they keep putting themselves in harms way.

The question also becomes how many lives of others do we risk to save people who make bad decisions.

Getting people out now is a very dangerous proposition. Rescue missions don't always succeed and some are outright disasters.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

like_to_retire said:


> Looks like ISIS is at it again. I guess we wouldn't consider them our brothers - right?
> 
> Kabul Airport Attack Kills 12 U.S. Service Members, at Least 60 Afghans.
> 
> ltr


170 people, including 13 US troops.
And apparently lost one of theirs (a suicide bomber).
That is a very efficient way of killing,at 1 to 170 ration.
Unsure why they call it 
*Kabul Airport Blasts: World leaders react to 'cowardly'*
any of those brave leaders would be able to sacrifice their life for something that they truly believe?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

sags said:


> ISIS commanders best write out their last will and testament.


Two down......more to follow.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

As expected, China is stepping in: Taliban to support belt and road plan of ‘trustworthy friend’ China


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Wow! Serious statement!
“China has been a trustworthy friend of Afghanistan. The Afghan Taliban is willing to continue to promote friendly relations between Afghanistan and China and will never allow any force to use Afghan territory to threaten China’s interests,” Hanafi said, according to a statement from the Chinese foreign ministry.”


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Michael Moore is doing a free streaming of Fahrenheit 9/11 ... you can watch for free on Friday, September 10 at 9 pm eastern.

Moore has been speaking out against America's purposeless, endless wars ever since the Iraq war started. How sad that the US wasted all this money and had so many people killed for no actual reason. Even from the start, it was clear that there was no real mission here, nothing to gain.

Thankfully Trump and Biden finally had the backbone to put an end to this war and pull Americans out.

Here's how to watch the movie for free:









A Free Worldwide Screening of "Fahrenheit 9/11"


Our first Mike's Movie Night




www.michaelmoore.com


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433375771414913031


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Michael Moore is doing a free streaming of Fahrenheit 9/11 ... you can watch for free on Friday, September 10 at 9 pm eastern.
> 
> Moore has been speaking out against America's purposeless, endless wars ever since the Iraq war started. How sad that the US wasted all this money and had so many people killed for no actual reason. Even from the start, it was clear that there was no real mission here, nothing to gain.
> 
> ...


The truth of Afghanistan is that there is no reason for the US to stay any longer. The 1990's and 2000's and the US wars on Iraq and Afghanistan are very tied to American total dependence on oil from those countries.

How the tables have turned thanks to American engineering. 15 years after pioneering hydraulic fracturing in a way that could be mass produced, the US is now actually the largest producer of oil in the world and adding in Canada and Mexico means North America is effectively energy independent. This means the US has the freedom to let the Middle East sort itself out.

You could say that hydraulic fracturing has made it predictable and perhaps inevitable that American interventions in the Middle East would disappear.

15 years ago, Americans were borrowing money from the Middle East and selling assets to them to buy oil. Today, the Middle East is borrowing American money and selling assets to maintain their way of life. It's a very interesting turn of events 15 years in the making.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

doctrine said:


> You could say that hydraulic fracturing has made it predictable and perhaps inevitable that American interventions in the Middle East would disappear.


That's part of the story, but there is also the warfare industry in America (and many other western countries) that keep lobbying for war.

So whether or not there is any good justification for war, these corporate interests keep pushing for it. They've become unbelievably rich through warfare, basically just taking money from the public. The taxpayer funds all of these monsters:

Thales
Airbus
General Dynamics
Northrop Grumman
BAE
Raytheon
Boeing
Lockheed Martin
And countless other defense contractors, like Blackwater. Tons of rich people getting even more rich off the backs of the taxpayer. All they need are some people to blow up.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Today is the 20th anniversary of 9/11.

Michael Moore has posted Fahrenheit 9/11 on youtube. You can watch the full movie here, unless it gets taken down.


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