# Buying a Car - Negotiation and Money Saving!



## Seth (Aug 16, 2010)

Hello Folks,

I want to start out wishing you all Health, Weath and Happiness in this new year!

I've decided to buy my first new car.

Typically I've bought my previous cars (very used and for cash) but the wife is getting more concerned with having a safe new vehicle as we travel ALOT these days for work.

Our current car is 8 years old with about 300k on it... I'm keeping this she's getting the new one (two car family I said I would NEVER be but that's life)

The 0% financing especially for 72 and 84 months the dealerships are promoting has got me in the buying mood.

Aside from Car Cost Canada (which I'm using) what are some other Negotiation tips from the CMForum community?

What pit falls should I avoid?

Any funny stories?

Thanks in advance!


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Pitfalls are the add-ons like undercoating, mats, extra electronic gadgets.

Since you don't have a trade, why not consider buying privately? The main advantage to dealers as I see it is they have people who can help with financing AND can take your trade. If you will be doing your own financing you can save $ by buying privately, just make sure the car is safetied by previous owner and that you do your usual due diligence.

Remember dealers are there to sell, nothing more. Yes, some are nice and good but most of them stop being your friend the moment you agree to buy the car. You won't find many who are willing to come down on the price either.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

You are keeping your car, and that is good because 
depending on the type of trade, mileage and age of the vehicle, not
all dealers are willing to take and older high mileage trade..
If they do take an older vehicle, you will only get some kind of wholesale price for it.
probably around $500 or less, for the convenience, as I found out. 

If you are buying a new vehicle, then the new vehicle warranty applies and
stick only with the manufacturers warranty, as the extended warranties are
a profit maker for the dealer and only cover certain types of failures..not
tires, exhaust, belts, brakes or anything that they consider wear and tear
and those are the parts that will cost you regardless.

As far as the undercoat, it depends on what the dealer is going to charge you?
You can get a decent rust check from an independent garage for around $120
so if it's going to cost more than that..that is the dealers profit. 

One thing to consider is a current year demo..and it depends on the mileage
as well, because the dealer has to sell it at a certain point to keep the manufacturer
warranty extended. In most cases there are significant savings over a brand new
"off the floor" vehicle. 

If you are buying a used (say 1-2 year old) vehicle from a dealer, they have to do the safety 
and give you at least a 30 day 50-50 warranty.. that is if they are a registered
dealer. I don't think you will get that from a private individual, AND as of
July 1, 2010, you have to now pay HST on the price on the bill of sale, (I believe)
to get the ownership changed over, so there is no longer any savings there
buying privately.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

An old-ish but still good link: "Confessions of a Car Salesman."


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## Xander (Apr 3, 2009)

Have you looked into importing a new car from the US? I am currently pricing out a new F150 from the Buffalo area and the savings are huge! I have used Car Cost Canada in the past but with the exchange rate where it is at now (Cdn$ worth almost a cent more than US$) the savings will between $5,000 & $10,000 depending on the model/options. If the car is manufactured or assembled in N. America there is no duty of 6.1%, you pay only the HST.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Xander said:


> Have you looked into importing a new car from the US? I am currently pricing out a new F150 from the Buffalo area and the savings are huge! I have used Car Cost Canada in the past but with the exchange rate where it is at now (Cdn$ worth almost a cent more than US$) the savings will between $5,000 & $10,000 depending on the model/options. If the car is manufactured or assembled in N. America there is no duty of 6.1%, you pay only the HST.


I've known a few people that have done that in the past, and its been a huge hassle. True, all those cars were used, but still, there are some hoops. You need a new safety and may have to make some changes to the car to meet Canadian safety standards, all the paperwork at the border plus financing again.

And remember what the ads say,"residency restrictions apply"


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## Xander (Apr 3, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> I've known a few people that have done that in the past, and its been a huge hassle. True, all those cars were used, but still, there are some hoops. You need a new safety and may have to make some changes to the car to meet Canadian safety standards, all the paperwork at the border plus financing again.
> 
> And remember what the ads say,"residency restrictions apply"


I am not familiar with buying used so I cannot comment on that. As for as buying new, it is true that some auto makers will not allow their US dealers to sell to Canadians but many do. The process of importing a vehicle is very straight forward. I'm not aware of any hoops. So far I have found the only things that need to be done on US model vehicles is get the daytime running lights operational and install some French labels. These two things are easily done at a very small cost. I did buy my 6x10 utility trailer 3 yrs ago from a US dealer. I saved $900 on a $2700 purchase for about 6hrs work which included internet research, travel time, time at Canada customs, and the inspection at Canadian Tire. I don't mind working for $150/hr net. In the case of a new car the savings will be much higher. I figure by the time I buy the F150 I'll have about 10-12 hrs invested. If I go with the loaded Lariat model the savings will be over $7000. Well worth any hassle in my opinion.

Like anything else you have to do your research. Verify that the car can be imported to Canada, check to see if the warranty will be honoured in Canada etc... The savings can be more than worth it.


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## Seth (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks guys!

I'm financing, as I'm not in the position to purchase with cash (damn you penny stock gambling habit eating up all my disposable income)

I've never considered purchasing from the States as I don't believe you can use purchase financing in that regards.

Please keep the tips coming, I'm currently in deliberation with a dealer, so far, I've got him down 1200 on a 20k purchase!~


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

Not sure how Ford or others deal with cross border shopping, but a coworker of mine just bought a new Cadillac in the U.S. (he keeps it in Florida)
He was told by GM that there is no warranty coverage in Canada if he brings it across the border.


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## Sustainable PF (Nov 5, 2010)

I highly recommend importing. Links to my articles are in this thread - we had a great experience. The dollar is so close to par it is very much so worthwhile investigating.

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php?t=2816


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Seth said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Please keep the tips coming, I'm currently in deliberation with a dealer, so far, I've got him down 1200 on a 20k purchase!~


You didn't mention the car company you are negotiating with..but
If you are a Costco member, Ford was giving an additional $1000 discount
in December (advertised on TV) and they may still be doing that as
GM also extended their pre-Christmas promotion to Jan 31st.
http://www.ford.ca/app/fo/en/special_offers/current_promotions.do

They have a couple fuel efficient compacts (Focus/Fiesta) that may be worth looking at..
my son bought one last year and is satisfied with it.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

when we bought our bmw x5 from the US warranty work was covered here. since you quote safety as the reason for purchase i expect you are buying the biggest, meanest, vehicle with the most mass possible, correct? if not, it is NOT safe...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sprocket1200 said:


> *buying the biggest, meanest, vehicle with the most mass possible, correct? if not, it is NOT safe*...


It's hard to define real "safety" these days in any vehicle..unless you are buying a Mack dumptruck..maybe.

I've noticed that some manufacturers are now offering
some type of collision avoidance electronics on some of their fancier models..
but even that is not going to help when someone coming the other
way hits a patch of black ice and veers into your lane..then it's up to God or luck as
to who survives and the extent of the injuries. Yes, they all come with seat belts and air bags and pretty
much all have antilock brakes these days..but, there is always those unpredictable situations.


There was an accident a couple of days ago near Ottawa,
where a young couple ran into a the back of a fully loaded parked semi-trailer
on a road without any lights on ( or so the media reported) driving a pickup truck .
They were both killed instantly. Now you would think that a pickup truck is a fairly safe vehicle..
well, in most cases.


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## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

sprocket1200 said:


> the biggest, meanest, vehicle with the most mass possible, correct? if not, it is NOT safe...





carverman said:


> It's hard to define real "safety" these days in any vehicle..unless you are buying a Mack dumptruck..maybe.
> [...]
> There was an accident a couple of days ago near Ottawa,
> where a young couple ran into a the back of a fully loaded parked semi-trailer
> ...



In a head-on collision, bigger is better, but not all collisions are head-on. Smaller vehicles are better able to avoid obstacles, and are more resistant to roll-overs. There's a point where going for more mass (esp. when you transition over to pickups and body-on-frame SUVs) starts working against you. The peak of overall safety is in the middle of the size scale: minivans. (then crossovers, midsize cars, SUVs, etc.)

I couldn't find the original IIHS report on it that I read a few years ago, but this presentation looks to have the same data:

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/teepa/pdf/aps-ppt-wenzel.pdf


Back to the OP, I found I did well negotiating by email, since I'm terrible face-to-face. I had my CCC invoice price, added $500 in profit for the dealer, and just emailed dealers asking if they could make that price. It helps if there's less demand (e.g., a recent recall, bad weather, etc).


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

you guys are funny. both those support bigger, meaner trucks. the pickup lost to a meaner truck.

that report states that cars hit by suvs side on have 5x death rate for car driver (4x if hit by pickup) than if hit by another car. it is almost intuitive. be the truck...(biggest, meanest, heaviest.


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## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

sprocket1200 said:


> you guys are funny. both those support bigger, meaner trucks. the pickup lost to a meaner truck.
> 
> that report states that cars hit by suvs side on have 5x death rate for car driver (4x if hit by pickup) than if hit by another car. it is almost intuitive. be the truck...(biggest, meanest, heaviest.


A *stationary*, bigger, meaner truck. Could have been any stationary object: a tree, a highway barrier, the side of a tunnel. What happens when a _nearly_-unstoppable force hits an immovable object? It stops.

Yes, if you've got a collision between a big SUV and a small car, the small car loses. But, the big SUV has too much mass to bring to a sudden halt if it hits something it can't force to move to soak up momentum. SUVs are more unstable, and have more mass for the roof pillars to try to support. So if you're out driving at night on your own and slip into the ditch and roll, you're dead. You'd much rather be in a smaller car: you might not go off the road in the first place, and if you do, the crumple zones of the car can bleed momentum sufficiently to keep you from dying.

And from the stats, bottom line is people die in SUVs about as often as people in midsize cars do, and you're less likely to kill other people in a car or on foot (including your own children when reversing), spend less up front, and save in gas down the road.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Potato said:


> Yes, if you've got a collision between a big SUV and a small car, the small car loses. But, the big SUV has too much mass to bring to a sudden halt if it hits something it can't force to move to soak up momentum. SUVs are more unstable, and have more mass for the roof pillars to try to support. So if you're out driving at night on your own and slip into the ditch and roll, you're dead. You'd much rather be in a smaller car: you might not go off the road in the first place, and if you do, the crumple zones of the car can bleed momentum sufficiently to keep you from dying.
> 
> 
> > Looks like we are digressing from buying a car to safety of vehicles in general.
> ...


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

A few years ago I took a Physics course which had a full module about collisions... mass can be a very bad thing if the vehicle does not crumple, because something has to, and sadly it's often the human body. Give me a Volvo over an F150 any day. The Volvo isn't perfect, but at least there is more thought behind the effects of force on the body. And I have seen the effects many times, attended accident scenes where shovels had to be used to clean up.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

For new cars, look at carcostcanada.ca. There's like a $30 sign up fee, but it gives you the dealer's price.

When I was in the US, Costco did this for me ... I think I saved $10K on my Honda Accord.


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## Sustainable PF (Nov 5, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> For new cars, look at carcostcanada.ca. There's like a $30 sign up fee, but it gives you the dealer's price.
> 
> When I was in the US, Costco did this for me ... I think I saved $10K on my Honda Accord.


After getting the price from carcostcanada, go to edmunds.com and find out what the same car in the US costs, then read the links I posted above, learn to import, and save 20-30% beyond the "invoice" price in Canada.


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## larry81 (Nov 22, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> For new cars, look at carcostcanada.ca. There's like a $30 sign up fee, but it gives you the dealer's price.
> 
> When I was in the US, Costco did this for me ... I think I saved $10K on my Honda Accord.


listen to this man


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Sustainable PF said:


> After getting the price from carcostcanada, go to edmunds.com and find out what the same car in the US costs, then read the links I posted above, learn to import, and save 20-30% beyond the "invoice" price in Canada.


*laughing* ... I couldn't agree more. Or just go to Costco in the US?

There is a method to my madness ...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Potato said:


> Back to the OP, I found I did well negotiating by email, since I'm terrible face-to-face. I had my CCC invoice price, added $500 in profit for the dealer, and just emailed dealers asking if they could make that price. It helps if there's less demand (e.g., a recent recall, bad weather, etc).


I'm getting ready to import a car from the States, I read that everyone there negotiates down from the invoice price so are you sure they only keep $500 profit?

Who's banking the price difference between Canada-US?


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## Turbo88 (Jan 18, 2011)

Sustainable PF said:


> After getting the price from carcostcanada, go to edmunds.com and find out what the same car in the US costs, then read the links I posted above, learn to import, and save 20-30% beyond the "invoice" price in Canada.


You should also check out carsaver.ca as another comparison. It is the only website in Canada I found that offers free invoice price reports.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> I'm getting ready to import a car from the States, I read that everyone there negotiates down from the invoice price so are you sure they only keep $500 profit?
> 
> Who's banking the price difference between Canada-US?


Hmmm... I'm wagering a little Canadian tax and having fewer dealers with higher overall costs, and the car companies.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> Hmmm... I'm wagering a little Canadian tax and having fewer dealers with higher overall costs, and the car companies.


The Cdn tax is on top of the price you pay, which is at best $500 above Cdn invoice. Carcostcanada suggests you add 3-5% to the invoice for profit on your offer. On top of that you pay triple the transport fee of the States, so $1000+ per car should cover the "higher overall costs".

The Americans negotiate down or get lots of free accessories and pay at most invoice (if they negotiate)

Sounds to me like the invoice is just an arbitrary number the manufacturers leak to these websites so people think they are getting rock bottom prices. I know the currency is unstable, but carcostcanada seems irrelevant when the car companies are still raking in far more than $500. Where does this "invoice price" come from anyways?


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> The Cdn tax is on top of the price you pay, which is at best $500 above Cdn invoice. Carcostcanada suggests you add 3-5% to the invoice for profit on your offer. On top of that you pay triple the transport fee of the States, so $1000+ per car should cover the "higher overall costs".
> 
> The Americans negotiate down or get lots of free accessories and pay at most invoice (if they negotiate)
> 
> Sounds to me like the invoice is just an arbitrary number the manufacturers leak to these websites so people think they are getting rock bottom prices. I know the currency is unstable, but carcostcanada seems irrelevant when the car companies are still raking in far more than $500. Where does this "invoice price" come from anyways?


I have no honest clue where the invoice price comes from ...

There is the HST when you cross the border now, and I think if you buy from the US to bring into Canada that there are other registration fees, etc.

However, the difference given exchange rates is high enough to think about buying a car down south and bringing it back across the border.

My argument wasn't the HST, but the taxes on manufactured parts that go into the car, which may add additional hidden costs.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Those 0% financing deals usually come with jacked up prices. You might have a choice between 0% financing OR regular financing with a big cash discount. The latter might actually end up costing you less money even if the monthly payments are higher.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

My BIL has purchased 2 cars in the US and saved a great deal of money in the bargain. One was purchased on the east coast. He had it shipped to Vancouver. The shipping to Bellingham, WA., 30 minutes south of Vancouver, was $650. The same shipping to Vancouver was $2200. He is retired from the transportation/forwarding business and so he knows the ropes. You can guess where he picked it up.


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