# Good international flight prices



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm posting this near the end of the sale, but Air Canada (and others) have some seat sales for international flights. Might be worth checking out if you've been thinking of flying to the US or Asia. Some really remarkable pricing to Asia & Australia if you choose off peak season dates.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Flights to Asia have been less expensive for the last two or three years. Last year the fare from Calgary-Singapore/Bangkok-Calgary open jaw was under $800. on United/ANA. Very good fares on EVA from Vancouver to Asia. Prior to that it had been fairly steady at $1000-1100. The year before was similar.


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## MillionDollarJourney (Apr 3, 2009)

What do you guys use when searching for flight prices? I've been using google flights and finding it pretty useful.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

I use google flights, but also YEGdeals, or whatever the airport code is for your location.
Best deal recently available was vegas on a direct flight for $155 taxes in. 
Taipei for about $560. Tokyo/Hong Kong together for under 700.
Beijing for $510.
Australia for 850 ish.

All prices return, all taxes in.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I/we use Google flights and Skyscanner.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AC sale prices, e.g. Australia, continue today


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Calgary/Vancouver to Australia coming up to today on YYC and YVR deals for $575-$685 CAD return. $790-$807 return from Toronto.

This time last year we paid just under $800 for an open jaw Calgary-Singapore, Bangkok-Calgary. I expect to see it again.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> Calgary/Vancouver to Australia coming up to today on YYC and YVR deals for $575-$685 CAD return. $790-$807 return from Toronto.


Where are you seeing those fares to Australia and Singapore? I looked at AC's web site and I'm seeing at least $1600 round trip YVR to Australia.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

yycdeals.com, yvrdeals.com, yyzdeals.com I think it was Qantas via SFO. 

Only Australia (various cities). My reference to Singapore/SE Asia was last year however I expect to see something similar this year.

Flight prices are down in some parts of the world. We have booked one way Thailand-Australia in Feb for $250. CAD, and one way back from Australia to Hawaii in March for $375 CAD each. Both flights are about 10 hours.

Our experience with XXXdeals.com is that you need to be quick off the mark and book immediately if you want to take advantage of some of the offers and to get the fligths/dates that you want. Seats can disappear in hours or by the next day.


....just noticed this update on the yvrdeals.com website:

Update @ 8:15 PM PST - Qantas is now showing a few *non-stop* flights from Vancouver to Sydney in January for $575 CAD roundtrip including taxes!! (see update below)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks very much ian, I must start using those web sites. Yes Qantas has some good deals, and I considered those routes earlier but the price was much higher at the time I looked.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

ian said:


> yycdeals.com, yvrdeals.com, yyzdeals.com I think it was Qantas via SFO.
> 
> Only Australia (various cities). My reference to Singapore/SE Asia was last year however I expect to see something similar this year.
> 
> ...


Yah, I'm on Chris Mydens mail list here too on the East Coast. Even from here Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane Australia $952-981- a few days ago quite a few dates through '19 on Quantas.

J4b just pick your closest CDN city(ies) airport code & add deals.com to get yourself signed up for deal emailings.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We get AC emails all the time. Just about every time the announce some big sale we go to their website and take a look. Usually it is disappointing except in off peak times when they flights are empty. Same for the cruise lines. We find that the independent fare watchers, and there are several, do a much better job of sorting out the good fares from the 'advertised' good fares. Folks like yvrdeals.com, travelzoo, etc. 

It also pays to understand who owns what. We flew from one way Sydney to Honolulu a few years ago on Jetstar. The identical seats were $300 AUD more on Qantas. Guess what.....as we boarded we discovered that it was a code share flight. With Qantas. Because Jetsar Australia was owned by Qantas!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We will be flying home from Sydney in mid/late March. We need a one way ticket. We had the same challenge three years ago.

We booked a SYD to Honolulu flight on Jetstar, a budget airlines. owned by Qantas. Then we booked a HNL to Canada flight. This breaks the trip up for us. What we save on air pays for our HNL hotel. The last time we did this the flight was a code share with Qantas. Our cost this time, inclusive of a bag fee, seat selection, and meal came to just under $750. CAD for two seats, essentially $375. each. The flight from HNL is under $300 CAD each.

One difference is that we have no real time constraints so we were able the cherry pick a low Jetstar fare.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I just stumbled across this page at Air Canada the other day. They are showing some incredibly good prices for selected dates. Better than what I booked earlier

https://www.aircanada.com/en-ca/flights-to-sydney
https://www.aircanada.com/en-ca/flights-to-brisbane


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Forget about looking in the rear view mirror and comparing fares. Once you have booked an airline, cruise, whatever at a non refundable price that you like why bother checking after that? You will seldom get the lowest price. And if you wait for the absolute lowest price chances are you will be vacationing in your back yard. We travel on a regular basis and very frequently take advantage of late booking specials. We never torment ourselves after booking, or feel particularly smart because we booked the lowest fare. 
You simply have to to the best you can and move forward with it.

As an aside, we seem to be getting a number of low air fare offers on travelzoo. We have not bothered to check them since we are all 'aired' up for our winter travel that starts in two weeks. 

We were able to score an amazing fare ($250 each) on Scoot, a sub of Singapore airlines, from Krabi, Thailand to Gold Coast, Australia in Mid Feb. . About 10 hours. It was simply dumb luck to find and book it.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

james4beach said:


> I just stumbled across this page at Air Canada the other day. They are showing some incredibly good prices for selected dates. Better than what I booked earlier
> 
> https://www.aircanada.com/en-ca/flights-to-sydney
> https://www.aircanada.com/en-ca/flights-to-brisbane


Sometimes travel agent has better deal than the price on carrier website. We have purchased 5 tickets for around $8,400 today to travel to South East Asia. The prices on China Southern airlines were $1,604 and $2,468 but the agent gave us $1,535 and $1,899 respectively.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

ian said:


> We will be flying home from Sydney in mid/late March. We need a one way ticket. We had the same challenge three years ago.
> 
> We booked a SYD to Honolulu flight on Jetstar, a budget airlines. owned by Qantas. Then we booked a HNL to Canada flight. This breaks the trip up for us. What we save on air pays for our HNL hotel. The last time we did this the flight was a code share with Qantas. Our cost this time, inclusive of a bag fee, seat selection, and meal came to just under $750. CAD for two seats, essentially $375. each. The flight from HNL is under $300 CAD each.
> 
> One difference is that we have no real time constraints so we were able the cherry pick a low Jetstar fare.


I'm pretty jealous. 
I said it before but I sooo look forward to travelling during retirement when time will not be the key limiting factor on flight and itinerary decisions. We love looking at different itinerary options that allow us to stop at places along the way.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Kind of random thread, but wanted to share a neat experience.
My wife is flying down to Guatemala to do some volunteer work with her parents and their Rotary club. All in all should be a good experience.
Anyways, I was booking her flight down. United was the best option with just a plane change in Houston.

Basic Economy Fare: $499
Flexible Economy Fare: $999
First Class Fare: $585

What??? I will book that thanks. And her parents booked it as well. Granted, it's more like business class on those routes, but still for such a small price increment, it's hard to pass up.
The extra cost is more than made up for by the 2 free checked bags. As it's a volunteer trip, they bring a lot of donated supplies down and would have to pay the baggage fee for that.


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## Danny (Oct 17, 2012)

Also use google flights and skyscanner.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

milhouse said:


> I'm pretty jealous.
> I said it before but I sooo look forward to travelling during retirement when time will not be the key limiting factor on flight and itinerary decisions. We love looking at different itinerary options that allow us to stop at places along the way.


Many people think as you do milhouse that time will not be a limiting factor after retirement. I'm here to tell you that's simply not true.

The older I get, the more important 'door to door' time becomes to me. As we get older, we are physically and mentally less able to cope. That's just the way it is. So while when I first retired at age 43, I probably wouldn't have cared if I nearly had to fly standing up, if the price was right, that is far from the case now at age 73.

Now, I will not fly cattle class; I will not book non-refundable fares; I will only fly direct non-stop if available at all; I will pay attention to all connection times and will not accept a connection over 2 hours; the list goes on. The basic criteria is to spend as little time as possible, 'door to door' and with as much comfort as can be afforded.

Threads like this one and thoughts like your thought about retirement always assume that everyone has the same needs as themselves. Our needs change over time and at no time more so than after retirement.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

nobleea said:


> Kind of random thread, but wanted to share a neat experience.
> My wife is flying down to Guatemala to do some volunteer work with her parents and their Rotary club. All in all should be a good experience.
> Anyways, I was booking her flight down. United was the best option with just a plane change in Houston.
> 
> ...


Yes, such things do occur nobleea. It is not that uncommon really for a business or first class fare to be lower than say a 'Premium Economy'. It always pays to check all fare types, not just economy. Most people of course can't see beyond the end of their nose to consider all the other factors involved in flying. 

So for example they see a fare for say $1000 and another fare for $1200 and book the $1000 fare without thinking. They don't notice that the fare they booked has two stops enroute and one of them is a 6 hour connection time. Door to door they spend 20 or 30 hours instead of 10 hours if they had paid the extra $200 for a direct non-stop flight. This is very common on longer haul travel. Add on to that perhaps that as you note, 2 free checked bags is included in the higher fare which will be a $100 add on to the lower fare anyway. Or the lower fare is non-cancelable while the higher fare is not, etc. etc.

Price is not what matters, VALUE is what matters and what any given individual will value will differ. Price should matter only in terms of 'can you afford it'. I find that a great many people these days seem to have lost sight of the difference between price and value. Travel is like most things, you get what you pay for and that simply means that the best value is rarely found at the lowest price.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Obviously. We have 3 kids under 6, so total travel duration, number of stops, departure time, etc all play a factor. Earliest flight departure is probably around 830a. 2 hrs or more is nice for a transfer time as we're the last ones off the plane and have to assemble the stroller.

On the other hand, we have 4 tickets to pay for (one is still an infant), so a $200 extra on the fare adds up to a big number.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Threads like this one and thoughts like your thought about retirement always assume that everyone has the same needs as themselves. Our needs change over time and at no time more so than after retirement.


WTF?? Where in my comment did I assume that everyone else had the same needs as myself? I said *I* was jealous and *I* was looking forward and *we* as in me and my missus love looking at different options. I also don't understand how you can interpret a three sentence appreciation of general travel flexibility and expect that it applies to my all of my travel plans throughout each stage o my retirement? Troll much? Yeesh. lol


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

milhouse said:


> WTF?? Where in my comment did I assume that everyone else had the same needs as myself? I said *I* was jealous and *I* was looking forward and *we* as in me and my missus love looking at different options. I also don't understand how you can interpret a three sentence appreciation of general travel flexibility and expect that it applies to my all of my travel plans throughout each stage o my retirement? Troll much? Yeesh. lol


There is no need to curse milhouse. You are not the only reader of this thread or any other. What you wrote is typical of how people think about retirement that's all. Whether you gave it real thought before writing it or it was just 'sloppy writing' on your part that did not clearly communicate your message, really doesn't matter. People think time will not matter after retirement and that is simply not true. Time will still matter but for different reasons. 

So while you may have the time to spend on a 6 hour layover at an airport after retirement does not mean you will be happy to do so. You wrote, "when time will not be the key limiting factor" while in fact it will still be a key limiting factor. HOW it will continue to be a key limiting factor is all that will change.

You may already understand that but again, you are no the only reader in this forum and I have no doubt that some will not understand how time continues to be a limiting factor unless it is explained to them. A case of something that sounds good if you say it fast enough, right up until you actually start thinking about it in more depth.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Back to the original question.....we have NEVER found a so called international route sale by Air Canada to be much of a sale or indeed even market competitive. We get the emails, we look at them and walk. No different than some of the so called sales events by cruise lines. We do two, often three international flights a year. Same really for domestics or NA flights. Last Oct/NOv we flew down to Mexico. AC had a sale. The only issue was that their sale price for our open jaw ticket was about 30 percent higher than the Westjet price.

The last time we booked Air Canada was several years ago for Asia. But....the fare, routing, and fare codes came up on itmatrix. itmatrix said the fare was offered at 1000. Called AC immediately, quoted the dates, flights, fare code. Their price was $1500. Went of Orbitz five minutes later. Booked the date, flights, fare codes for $1000 CAD as per the itmatrix result. In three of four successive years we have yet to book AC for international travel. Yes, we always check their price and sched first.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

While I agree that most of their "sales" are bogus (not really a good price) I have occasionally found good international fares as part of a sale. About a year ago I booked a RT to Australia for $1300 which was competitive with other carriers. This was a good AC sale price and about as cheap as I've bought the fare going back a decade.

ian: can you walk me through how you are typically booking Asia+oz? Are you using this web site?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Last year we did a one way on Delta points on Korean Air to Bangkok. I must say that out of the five flights we have had to BKK on various airlines, Korean was the absolute best in all regards. In Thailand we used skyscanner to identify attractive fares to Gold Coast, OZ (just outside Brisbane, near our friends). We have done this flight twice. Three years ago we took AirAsia from Kuala Lumper to Gold Coast. Fare was about $300. Last winter we scored big. We flew from Krabi, near our last stop in Thailand, to Gold Coast on Scoot, a sub of Singapore Airlines. It is a LCC. Our base fare was $190 CAD. Had to believe for a 10 hour flight.

Coming home...both times we booked Jetstar Australia, a sub of Qantas, from Sydney to Honolulu. This past March I think we paid something like $300, Cad for this. We stopped in HNL for two nights. We also had one way air from HNL to Calgary. The one way trip cost us about $700 Cad not including the cost of the HNL stopover. BUT, a one way ticket direct on other carriers was much more. We actually preferred to stop in HNL even though we bemoaned the quality of the beach and the crowds compared to Thailand and OZ.

We are now watching fares to BKK in Jan. They show up at about 900-1200 on itmatrix. Just as they have done in the past. But, in the past, that number had dropped to $750-800 by early Dec. You do need to be cognixant of the lunar new year dates. The $900 fare today is via China, we prefer to be routed through Japan, Korea, or Teipei. We use itmatrix.it (also good for open jaws) for transpacific. google air would also work. I like itmatrix because of it's flexibility but our experience is that it does not always display all of the regional alternatives in either Asia or Europe...or S. America for that matter.

This may sound nuts but I am actually thinking of doing a 16 day India tour by myself in early Jan. If I do decide on this, then it makes no sense to come home. The flight from India to Bangkok is only four hours. Need to think about this as well as make certain that my spouse would have no issue flying to Bangkok on her own from Calgary.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I like just about everything you're describing there... I was just in the Gold Coast a few months ago. I might actually have to step away from this thread before it gives me ideas to book some new travel, as I'm trying to push my trailing 12 month expenses down a bit and am very close to succeeding

I don't know what itmatrix is. Is that https://matrix.itasoftware.com/ or something else?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Yes that is it. Our schedule is very flexible. What I especially like about the site is that we can put in a destination, the number of days between going and returning, a start date, and then get the next 30 days pricing indicating lowest price on that day. You can do it for one ways as well. Often going a day or two eariler or later can result in significant savings.

We do the same on skyscanner also for one way flights. Key in the destination, date and up comes the options. But..in the upper left hand side there is a bar that you can push to get the entire month prices for our flight. We find this very helpful when we are looking for one way fare on the LCC regional carriers...especially AsiaPacific/OZ and Europe.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian, random idea in case you want to look into this: a few years ago, I flew Air NZ with a multi-city route. I found that I was able to add a stop in a south pacific island for very little extra cost when coming back from Auckland. There was one day of the week with connecting Air NZ flights so one could land, spend a week or two there, then continue to the Americas.

If you haven't tried that yet, you might want to check out one of those islands. They are normally very difficult to get to, and full of kiwis since they are the only ones with the good fortune of having easy routes to them. Probably one of the best kept secrets of living in NZ besides, well, living in the amazing country of NZ.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> There is no need to curse milhouse. You are not the only reader of this thread or any other. What you wrote is typical of how people think about retirement that's all. Whether you gave it real thought before writing it or it was just 'sloppy writing' on your part that did not clearly communicate your message, really doesn't matter. People think time will not matter after retirement and that is simply not true. Time will still matter but for different reasons.
> 
> So while you may have the time to spend on a 6 hour layover at an airport after retirement does not mean you will be happy to do so. You wrote, "when time will not be the key limiting factor" while in fact it will still be a key limiting factor. HOW it will continue to be a key limiting factor is all that will change.
> 
> You may already understand that but again, you are no the only reader in this forum and I have no doubt that some will not understand how time continues to be a limiting factor unless it is explained to them. A case of something that sounds good if you say it fast enough, right up until you actually start thinking about it in more depth.


Nope, the original point was that you were clearly wrong when you said I assumed that everyone else had the same needs as myself and are now trying to deflect the blame back to me. Seriously, just admit it. 
If you want to discuss sloppy writing, you just quoted me as saying "when time will not be *the* key limiting factor" and then go on to argue that it will still be *a* key limiting factor. Kind of a big difference don't you think?
And it's pretty damn hilarious that you then go on to make assumptions about the comprehension and wants of the readers of the thread.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Back to the original question.....we have NEVER found a so called international route sale by Air Canada to be much of a sale or indeed even market competitive. We get the emails, we look at them and walk. No different than some of the so called sales events by cruise lines. We do two, often three international flights a year. Same really for domestics or NA flights. Last Oct/NOv we flew down to Mexico. AC had a sale. The only issue was that their sale price for our open jaw ticket was about 30 percent higher than the Westjet price.
> 
> The last time we booked Air Canada was several years ago for Asia. But....the fare, routing, and fare codes came up on itmatrix. itmatrix said the fare was offered at 1000. Called AC immediately, quoted the dates, flights, fare code. Their price was $1500. Went of Orbitz five minutes later. Booked the date, flights, fare codes for $1000 CAD as per the itmatrix result. In three of four successive years we have yet to book AC for international travel. Yes, we always check their price and sched first.


Well first, I am not a loyal customer of any given airline but I do rate different airlines and whether or not I would choose to fly with them. For example, you could not get me on an Air Canada Rouge flight at any price. Air Canada flights on the other hand provide some of the best comfort in the industry. I think there are a lot of people who do not realize that Air Canada Rouge and Air Canada are NOT one and the same airline. An Air Canada normal Economy seat cushion for example is more comfortable than a British Airways Premium Economy seat which is basically an old style Business Class seat. 

Unfortunately, on some routes, Air Canada has given up their slots to Air Canada Rouge which means that on those routes I cannot choose an Air Canada flight at any price. This is a problem for example if you want to fly to Scotland (we have family). To avoid Rouge, you either have to do a stop somewhere or fly with Air Transat direct. Neither is really an appealing choice for us.

Where we do find we can get a good price with Air Canada is on flights to Europe from our local regional airport. I cannot emphasize enough how important this is to us. Driving to Toronto, parking, checking-in, security, etc. is a real pain in the butt even though it is far from the worst airport in the world to use. Heathrow by comparison is a total nightmare for example and to be avoided at almost any cost.

Flying from London, Ontario to connect in Toronto on the other hand is a piece of cake and no hassle whatsoever. On a trip a couple of years back, we parked the car and walked the 3 minutes into the airport. No wait at check-in, straight up to the counter and bags checked through to Zurich, Switzerland. Then just walk through security to the departure area. At security on that trip though I had forgotten to take my little Swiss Army Knife off my keychain. The security guy asked if I was parked outside to which I replied I was, so he suggested I walk back out, leave the knife in my vehicle and return. Total time to have that conversation, walk out, leave the knife, walk back in and back through security, 5 minutes! Imagine the same scenario at Toronto Airport. The reality is I would have had to lose the knife. Getting back out to a vehicle parked off-site and back would have been out of the question. On arrival at Toronto Airport, you are of course already airside and simply walk from your arrival gate to your departure gate. 

Here's the price advantage. When you book this connecting flight as part of your international route, the price is NOT the same as if you just booked the short flight alone. It appears to cost us around $100 per person each way to do this. Now someone may well say, 'yeah that's nice but it's still $400 return for the two of you.' Yes, it is and well worth every dime. What's more, parking is $10 per day, steps from the airport door which is far less than parking in Toronto even off-site would be. How do you value the convenience of finally arriving back at your home airport, tired and just wanting to get home and just having to walk 50 yards to your car? 

So how do you measure 'competitive'? If that simply means the lowest priced economy airfare you can find, Air Canada will probably not come out the cheapest very often but is that all you compare? We never book a standard economy seat, an extra legroom seat is the lowest we ever book. Again, around a $100 each way extra cost per seat on a transatlantic flight on Air Canada. So add another $400. But what is the price on another airline if you do the same things? And can you even do so without changing terminals in Toronto? How are the connection times? These are all factors that impact the ease with which you travel. 

On our trip earlier this month to Switzerland we did this route with Air Canada. Not one hiccup, not one point of hassle other than the idiot standing right in front of the entry to the gate waiting for his class 5 boarding to be called when class 1,2 and 3 were being called. Don't you just hate it how people all start crowding towards the gate as soon as they announce boarding is going to begin, when they are boarding the back of the bus last! Even booking just extra legroom on Air Canada gets you priority 3 boarding.

Another comment on price competitiveness. We booked that trip spur of the moment, a week before the flight date. London-Toronto-Zurich-Toronto-London return, $3300 total in Extra Legroom for both of us. A few days before our return home, my wife went online to do online check-in. Standard Economy seats were $2700 each, one way Zurich-Toronto. I look at that and say we got a very good price by comparison. I don't compare to the lowest price, I compare the entire experience of travel for value.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

LCA...I can assure you that we know how to evaluate air fares as well as the costs and benefits associated with each offer and each carrier. We have been travelling extensively for years, and even more so since retiring. Not to mention years of extensive business travel.

We typically purchase one open jaw Europe ticket each year. AC is not very competitive here. Over the last two months it was Toronto-Athens and return London-Calgary. This time we went with Air Transat. Flights were perfect. Service better than our last transatlantic with either AC or Westjet. And the price delta....just under $500. each for the same products that had the same value proposition to us. $735 vs $1220.

We are willing to pay more for AC at times. Year before we paid a premium on AC so we could fly to Bangkok with only one change in Narita instead of the usual two. We viewed that price delta as value. 

We have nothing against AC and they are one of the first places we shop. But our experience is that the AC experience, North America, transpacific, transatlantic, is not appreciably different than we get from their competitors. Nor do we have to put up with the AC Rouge bait and switch which we are told by fellow travelers is happening with increased frequency.

LTA must really believe that everyone except him buys on price. Experienced travelers buy on value. That is why they are experienced.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Does AC Rouge sometimes show up unexpectedly? I didn't know that. When you say bait & switch, how does that occur?

I don't want to fly AC Rouge, ever. I heard from someone what a cramped disaster it was on a long flight to South America.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

IMHO, it is bait and switch when someone buys a fare on what they believe to be a regular AC flight only to board and find out that it is really a Rouge flight. There is a difference in seat pitch. AC no doubt will always claim it is an equipment issue. Yes, it has happened and it is my understanding that it continues to happen on certain routes. Sitting in Athens airport last week we saw an AC Rouge flight boarding. Quite happy to be on another carrier.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> IMHO, it is bait and switch when someone buys a fare on what they believe to be a regular AC flight only to board and find out that it is really a Rouge flight. There is a difference in seat pitch. AC no doubt will always claim it is an equipment issue. Yes, it has happened and it is my understanding that it continues to happen on certain routes. Sitting in Athens airport last week we saw an AC Rouge flight boarding. Quite happy to be on another carrier.


I would call that bait & switch as well. Wow, I didn't know that happens.

Is there any way to avoid that situation of a surprise Rouge? I fly AC pretty often.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I would call that bait & switch as well. Wow, I didn't know that happens.
> 
> Is there any way to avoid that situation of a surprise Rouge? I fly AC pretty often.


Bait and switch requires that it is intended from the get go. Suggesting AC does that is a step too far. However ian is correct in saying that an equipment change can and does sometimes occur. It's very cynical though to say it is intentional. 

The only way to avoid it is to pay attention to your booking and watch for a change. For example, your seat number is likely to change if they change planes just before the flight time. You DO have the option at that point to refuse the change of plane if you insist. That of course may not be very practical. The same can also apply to any airline.

I also think this is more likely to occur on some routes than on others simply because of the practical issues of re-routing a plane. Having to change planes on a flight is not something any airline wants to do, it comes at a cost to them to do so. In the case of AC and Rouge, it hasn't hard to see how it could most easily be done on frequent domestic flights but more difficult to do on longer haul international flights where there is only 1 flight per day usually.

If it were to happen to me on a transatlantic, I would be simply asking them to re-book my flight for the next day. Staying another night and spending another day wherever we were returning from in Europe is not something we would find onerous to do. The key though would be to know BEFORE you checked in. Usually as I said, a change to your seat assignment would be your first clue.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

....can someone please 'splain to me what "open jaw" tickets are? I see the term used here on the forum a bit, but I dont think Ive ever seen the term used by the actual airlines in their advertising ( but i could be wrong sbout that)


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> ....can someone please 'splain to me what "open jaw" tickets are? I see the term used here on the forum a bit, but I dont think Ive ever seen the term used by the actual airlines in their advertising ( but i could be wrong sbout that)



https://maphappy.org/2014/05/how-to-book-cheap-open-jaw-tickets/


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Booking one ticket. with the same carrier. Instead of a return ticket it could be different different embarkation or disbarkation cities.

Air Transat in our experience has excellent open jaw pricing. We might fly to Athens, come home from Rome. Recently we flew Toronto-Athens, and back London to Calgary. On the same ticket. Two winters ago it was Calgary-SIngapore and return Manila-Calgary on the same ticket.

IF we had purchased 2 one way tickets the the price that we paid on Transat, or any other carrier, would have been more. For three years running Transat has had the best open jaw flight pricing to Europe. By a very significant amount.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Booking one ticket. with the same carrier. Instead of a return ticket it could be different different embarkation or disbarkation cities.
> 
> Air Transat in our experience has excellent open jaw pricing. We might fly to Athens, come home from Rome. Recently we flew Toronto-Athens, and back London to Calgary. On the same ticket. Two winters ago it was Calgary-SIngapore and return Manila-Calgary on the same ticket.
> 
> IF we had purchased 2 one way tickets the the price that we paid on Transat, or any other carrier, would have been more. For three years running Transat has had the best open jaw flight pricing to Europe. By a very significant amount.


In theory, all 'open jaw' tickets are simply two one way tickets. If you book both flights with the same carrier they may not charge you as much as two individuals each booking one of the two flights. But that is not necessarily true. Many times the one way price is the same for a leg as it would be for the same leg of a return trip.

To determine if a carrier charges more, just start a booking for one way and see the price and then start one for a return and see the price for the one leg. I just checked AC from Toronto to Zurich one way and then return. On both the price Toronto TO Zurich leg started at $1373. So the one way is not more expensive than the same leg of a return.

It used to be that return was always cheaper than 2 one ways but that is no longer the case. Many airlines now price all seats as if they were one ways. That does in fact give the traveller more flexibility in that choosing to not buy a return will not cost them more. 

What often still confuses people about this is that checking a one way price today vs a return price tomorrow may well show you a lower price for the return ticket tomorrow. When a simple economy seat can vary between $800 for a return and $5000 for a one way if booked at a given time, it's very easy to think a return is better than a one way. As I noted elsewhere, our recent return was $3200 for 2 people in extra legroom and a week later the return only flight was $2700 for the one way. Looks like a very expensive one way does it not. But when we booked the $3200 return the one way was only something like $800 going per seat.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our experience is that one way fares are available and very well priced (relative to the cost of a return ticket) within North America, in Europe, in Asia, and Australia. 

This simply not so for transatlantic and transpacific flights originating from North America. You have to work to get a good one way fare. Try and get a good one way fare to Europe on AC or any of the other majors! We have used points, cruise air, alternate routes in order to get decent one way pricing. We have from time to time had some success with consolidators. A few years ago we were able to get tickets on BA, Toronto-Istanbul or half of the return cost. But they came from a consolidator. They were half the price of ticket purchased directly for the carrier. It is changing, ever so slightly. That is just one of the reasons why we were disappointed to hear of AC's bid for Transat. What a way to ruin a great little company that to have it swallowed up by AC.

As an example, a ONE WAY fare Toronto-London towards the end of this month is anywhere from $250-350 on Westjet or Transat. On AC....just under $1000. I may not want to try Westjet (we have used them for transatlantic in the past) but I would certainly pay the higher of the two numbers for Transat. 

Could we ever justify paying almost three or four times the price for the same seat on AC? No. Would you?

A few LCCs are starting to break the stranglehold on one way fares to North America. Not enough yet to start breaking down the stranglehold of the majors. Hopefully Westjet's announcement today about flights to Rome will and their order for large planes for the cross ocean route breathe some real competition into the marketplace.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Our experience is that one way fares are available and very well priced (relative to the cost of a return ticket) within North America, in Europe, in Asia, and Australia.
> 
> This simply not so for transatlantic and transpacific flights originating from North America. You have to work to get a good one way fare. Try and get a good one way fare to Europe on AC or any of the other majors! We have used points, cruise air, alternate routes in order to get decent one way pricing. We have from time to time had some success with consolidators. A few years ago we were able to get tickets on BA, Toronto-Istanbul or half of the return cost. But they came from a consolidator. They were half the price of ticket purchased directly for the carrier. It is changing, ever so slightly. That is just one of the reasons why we were disappointed to hear of AC's bid for Transat. What a way to ruin a great little company that to have it swallowed up by AC.
> 
> ...


You can either talk about one way vs. return fares or you can talk about 'good' one way fares. They are two different subjects ian.

The point was that two one ways (at a good or bad price) do not necessarily cost more than a return. A one way to Zurich was the same price as the one leg of a return ticket in my example that I checked. So IF I had wanted to book that flight yesterday, there would have been no advantage to booking a return.

Yesterday if you wanted to book on the exact flight I checked (AC878 for Nov. 28), the price was $1373 one way or $1373 as the outgoing leg of a return ticket. The SAME price either way. 

Today, that same flight is $1373 one way still, but only $618 as part of a return ticket. So yesterday, the statement that a one way will cost more was incorrect and today it is correct. Tomorrow, who knows. With Dynamic Pricing, there is no way to suggest any hard and fast rule re pricing of a one way or of a return. Dynamic Pricing is just too variable to suggest any rules.

One thing I know for sure. I will not let the price dictate to me whether or not I want to fly one way. Often when we travel, we do not have a fixed itinerary or even a fixed time limit. We go to A and stay till we are ready to leave, then decide on B, go there and stay till we are ready to leave, rinse and repeat until either we feel ready to return home or our funds available are used up and we return home.

If you choose to travel in that way, there is no way to know when you will return, so you can only book a one way to A. You don't even know where you might return home from!

That is all about the freedom of truly 'independent' travel and is yet another whole other subject of course. But it is a subject that someone who books a return flight because they believe it will cost them less doesn't even get to consider thinking about. It may cost them more and it may NOT, there is no rule.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We travel with open jaw or one ways for exactly the reason that you stated. . We often do not know when we are coming home or from where. This fall we booked an open jaw home from London. We narrowed it down to three choices once we were in Greece. Cyprus, Israel, or Morocco. London was the logical gateway home since it could be easily and inexpensively reached from all three countries. Israel lost because our dates corresponded to a lot of high holidays. Cyprus won because it was close and because of the $50. air fare. Morocco lost because we needed more time there than we had left. Choices....

Last winter we did one way to Thailand. We ended up coming home one way from Australia via Honolulu. Our only constraint these days is our 60 day out of country medical coverage. Prior to turning 60 and with no health issues it was easy and inexpensive to get this insurance extended by as much as four months. Alas, this is no longer the case.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> We travel with open jaw or one ways for exactly the reason that you stated. . We often do not know when we are coming home or from where. This fall we booked an open jaw home from London. We narrowed it down to three choices once we were in Greece. Cyprus, Israel, or Morocco. London was the logical gateway home since it could be easily and inexpensively reached from all three countries. Israel lost because our dates corresponded to a lot of high holidays. Cyprus won because it was close and because of the $50. air fare. Morocco lost because we needed more time there than we had left. Choices....
> 
> Last winter we did one way to Thailand. We ended up coming home one way from Australia via Honolulu. Our only constraint these days is our 60 day out of country medical coverage. Prior to turning 60 and with no health issues it was easy and inexpensive to get this insurance extended by as much as four months. Alas, this is no longer the case.


Sorry to hear about your insurance constraint. At 73, I and my younger wife still do not have any real health constraints. No 'pre-existing conditions' so far thankfully. I am all too aware of the way insurance can stop someone travelling even when they still want to do so. So far the cost is not beyond our acceptable limits even for a longer time period.

Currently, my personal biggest constraint that is starting to make me question whether I want to travel as much, is jet lag. It seems to be like a hangover. When you are younger, a hangover lasts a few hours the next morning and that's it. As you get older the hangover starts to last longer and you start to be less and less willing to drink more than you should. That of course is actually a good thing since it makes you behave in a better way. ie. drink less

But with jetlag, the result is the worse it affects you, the more you become reluctant to travel which I at least consider a bad thing. What used to be a one day to get over it thing now lingers to some degree for 3-4 days. It has escalated considerably in just my last decade.

The other related thing is colds. It seems like every time I travel lately I end up with a cold a couple of days after arrival or on our return home. I put it down to being in crowds in the airports and on planes and a lower natural resistance and ability to fight them off as I get older.

So if I suffer for 3 days from jet lag and then suffer from a cold when I get home, it kinda makes you think twice about whether to go somewhere in the first place.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

IF we really wanted more than 60 days we would bit the bullet and do it. I prefer three-four months. DW likes two. Since it corresponds to our insurance this is where we have landed. Especially since the arrival of grandchildren and even though they do not live in the city. Days drive or a flight. 

We find our worst jet lag by far is when we return home in March from Asia and/or Australia. Europe does not take as long nor is nearly as bad on our aging bodies. I expect that there will come a time when our desire to travel is lessened and our physical capacity to travel depreciates. Maybe then it will be cruise time.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Longtimeago said:


> The other related thing is colds. It seems like every time I travel lately I end up with a cold a couple of days after arrival or on our return home. I put it down to being in crowds in the airports and on planes and a lower natural resistance and ability to fight them off as I get older.


I used to get colds almost every time after flying. I've started doing a few things which seems to have helped, and I haven't gotten sick lately -- so I'm sticking with it:

1. with a disinfectant wipe (I use alcohol ones) upon taking my seat, I immediately wipe off the *head rest*, and use the same sheet to then wipe the tray table and touch screen (remember everyone and every child is using their filthy hands on the touch screen). I then throw the sheet into the seat pocket in front of me, mostly as a reminder to _not use the seat pocket_ because it's also filthy.

2. better hydration during flights. I carry a water bottle and drink water regularly. It will cause you to get up to use the bathroom, but that's also a good thing -- gets you moving.

3. I request hot tea on flights especially during cold & flu season. This idea was suggested by a friend who's a doctor. He says that that beyond just hydration, the hot liquid softens up your dry nasal passages which can help resilience against viruses. In any case, I'm getting used to regularly drinking hot tea (both in office settings and air travel)

4. keeping better hygiene and hand washing/sanitation. I'm watching this everywhere in life now. Obviously, wash your hands after they get contaminated somewhere. If you've been going through airport security, touching bins and surfaces, you *must* cleanse your hands before eating a bagel for example. Just always cleanse your hands before eating. Also in general -- *don't touch your face*. Habits such as touching your nose or rubbing your eyes is a good way to get cold & flu viruses.

I try very hard to not scratch my nose when I get an itch. The proper thing to do is grab a paper tissue or napkin and use that as a barrier between your hand and nose.

Always wash your hands. Keep hand sanitizer & moisturizer with you.
Avoid touching your face.
Clean your hands after shaking hands with someone.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> IF we really wanted more than 60 days we would bit the bullet and do it. I prefer three-four months. DW likes two. Since it corresponds to our insurance this is where we have landed. Especially since the arrival of grandchildren and even though they do not live in the city. Days drive or a flight.
> 
> We find our worst jet lag by far is when we return home in March from Asia and/or Australia. Europe does not take as long nor is nearly as bad on our aging bodies. I expect that there will come a time when our desire to travel is lessened and our physical capacity to travel depreciates. Maybe then it will be cruise time.


Yes that makes sense ian. The saying re jet lag is 'west is best'. So when you fly west from Europe back to Canada, all that really happens is you end up going to bed late. When flying east to Europe, you lose a night entirely. By the same but opposite token, returning from Asia will be bad while going west to Asia will not be.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I used to get colds almost every time after flying. I've started doing a few things which seems to have helped, and I haven't gotten sick lately -- so I'm sticking with it:
> 
> 1. with a disinfectant wipe (I use alcohol ones) upon taking my seat, I immediately wipe off the *head rest*, and use the same sheet to then wipe the tray table and touch screen (remember everyone and every child is using their filthy hands on the touch screen). I then throw the sheet into the seat pocket in front of me, mostly as a reminder to _not use the seat pocket_ because it's also filthy.
> 
> ...


Yes we do all those things james4beach. Nevertheless we still end up with a cold sometimes. It't just a question of quantity of exposure I think. When we travel, we subject ourselves to a whole lot more exposure than when we are at home.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Yes. When we fly to Bangkok we typically arrive around midnight. In our hotel bed by 1:30. Up and around by 10AM the following morning no issues. Coming back...it can take me three or four days to get over the jet lag. Going to Europe is the same. One good sleep and we are good to go. No so much coming back.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

People who are shopping around might want to take a look at AC with US prices right now. I am flying to the west coast (US) and just picked up a rather cheap fare, about 25% cheaper than what I normally pay on this route (which I know the 'normal' pricing of because I fly it frequently). However, that deal could be route-dependent.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> People who are shopping around might want to take a look at AC with US prices right now. I am flying to the west coast (US) and just picked up a rather cheap fare, about 25% cheaper than what I normally pay on this route (which I know the 'normal' pricing of because I fly it frequently). However, that deal could be route-dependent.


Assuming someone would want to visit the USA james4beach. As long as Trump is around, we along with many other people around the world, have no intention of visiting the USA. Possibly a factor in why you found such a cheap price.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealan...us-drops-in-first-half-of--2019/#3d09b1376ea6


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes I realize this is 'assuming someone would want to visit the USA'. Given that so many of us have family and business connections to the USA, it's a pretty safe bet that many of us will want to visit the US even if the politics are repulsive.

I just bought a round trip at $360 after taxes on AC for December. That's from US west coast Canada. What kind of price is that? I'll take it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Yes I realize this is 'assuming someone would want to visit the USA'. Given that so many of us have family and business connections to the USA, it's a pretty safe bet that many of us will want to visit the US, no matter their politics.


Nah, that's just a reason why someone might 'have' to visit, not a reason why anyone would 'want' to visit james4beach. :tongue:


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james.....we are shoppng for potential winter destinations. We always like Thailand. Fares for mid Jan are a little high at the moment as they have been in the past. They typically drop after Nov 15 or so. But...the fares from various points in Thailand and from Kuala Lumpur to Gold Coast are the same as last year. Anywhere from $190 to $240. CAD. A bargain. I do not know how they do it. AirAsia, Scoot, and Jetstar depending on departure city. Direct from KUL, one short stop from many Thai departure cities at that price point.


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## FinancialPanther (Jul 13, 2013)

@Dilbert thanks for that link on using ITA Matrix to search open jaw, with variable length stays; that is a game changer for me, I did not know it was possible and had to deal with limitations on Google Flights and SkyScanner. I typically fly different flights to and from Europe, so this combined with SkyScanner (to connect to Ryanair, Easyjet, etc) as well as some other sites (like kiwi to look at Flixbus and train options between destinations) will fully cover my needs.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We usually do open jaw to Europe. We do use itmatrix (and others) and we check Transat. Transat has been good for two or three trips. This fall we flew Transat Toronto- Athens and London-Calgary. Best pricing we could find at the time on itmatrix etc. was $1100 via AC. Transat was $725. That was bare bones because we only do carry on and select our seats a few hours before the flight.

One thing about Transat. You can price a one way. But if you do an open jaw the price for this is less than the price of two one way fares on Transat.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

I just purchased four tickets from YYC to DAC from an agent who tried to match the prices with Flighhub. However, at the end she asked $100 more that I agreed. I don't understand how come prices are cheaper on Flighhub than China Southern website. Shouldn't it be other way around? Is there anyone here purchased tickets from Flighhub directly? What's your experience?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I had the same situation with AC. itmatrix displayed a fare and a fare code of 1050 CAD. We called AC. They had the flights and the same fare code. The agent would not budge off 1500. We tried tried three other sites. The third, Orbitz, came up with the same flight, the same fare code for the itmatrix displayed fare of 730 or so USD....$1050 CAD. All within 15 minutes of my dialing in the itmatrix fares. Do not really understand it. Suprisingly we were able to select our seats at the time of booking on Orbitz.

Someone in the travel industry suggested that it had something to do with databases. I really do not know but we were quite surprised at the time. And relieved that we got the routing and fare that we wanted. First, and only time this has happened over the past nine years of extensive and frequent post retirement travel.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

I've booked a couple of flights off of Flight Hub about 5-10 years ago with yvrdeals or kayak identifying deals on the Flight Hub site which were cheaper than booking direct with the airline. No issues encountered by me from end to end other than maybe probs with advanced seat selection. In researching whether to book on Flight Hub, it seemed to me that most of the issues related to making changes to your booking. I generally don't love booking on these third party sites and prefer to book with the airline direct but I also generally don't make changes to my flights once booked.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

One issue with all third party bookings whether air travel, hotel, car rental,etc. is that you do introduce a 'third party' into the equation and IF there is a problem, you can find yourself being 'ping ponged' between the two parties. 

Another issue I see is cancellation clauses. ie. book this room at this price and you cannot cancel under any circumstances and must pay up front. I will never agree to do that any more than I will with an airfare.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It depends on the third party. We booked a hotel in Panama City through booking.com a few years ago. The hotel charged our credit card. A little while later we canceled. A refund was supposed to come. It did not. After requesting a refund and getting silly answers I went to booking.com. They replied immediately. I had my refund posted by the hotel within a week. I have no doubt that without their help I would not have been refunded.

We rented a car in London through autoeurope. Tank was half full, as noted on the contract. We returned it half full. The office was closed when we dropped it off. We got a 75 GBP charge posted to our visa. Fuel. Emailed autoeurope. They replied immediately and said they would investigate. Two days later an email from then saying Enterprise would reverse the charge within 5 business days and if this did not happen to call them immediately.

Great service on both accounts.

On occasion we do pay in advance, no cancel at two hotels that we are familiar with. The discount is substantial and we are will to take the chance. Same with air. Over the years we have never lost air. We have paid change fare. It depends on the ticket price delta between no change and change, and the cost of doing a change. Sometimes it is not worth the bother. We are careful to always buy change fare tickets if we are going for two or three months-especially if one way tickets are typically very expensive. Twice in five years we have changed our return flights from SE Asia during an extended winter trip. There was a huge difference between airlines. Change fee was the same but the customer service was not. Delta was wonderful to deal with, United the opposite. Delta 10 minutes, United 3 days.

We do not have a set rule on non refundable. It depends on the circumstances-financial and personal.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Took a chance on Flair last week. Domestic flight to Toronto from the west. Late booking. AC/Wesjet were both $550ish. Flair came in at $260. Same flight times. That price included paying for a seat selection and paying a premium (over checkin bags) for carry on. Plane went today. On time. DW says she is happy to pay for her coffee on Flair if she can save just under $300. by not booking the majors.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

ian said:


> Took a chance on Flair last week. Domestic flight to Toronto from the west. Late booking. AC/Wesjet were both $550ish. Flair came in at $260. Same flight times. That price included paying for a seat selection and paying a premium (over checkin bags) for carry on. Plane went today. On time. DW says she is happy to pay for her coffee on Flair if she can save just under $300. by not booking the majors.


We fly Flair when we can. Edmonton-based airline.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

How about the plane maintenance of Flair? You don't want to be in a ditch for saving money...


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I do not know. I assume that they outsource their maintenance to a third party. Could be to one of the majors, don't know. DW texted to say that her flight arrived on sched. I asked how it was. She replied 'uneventfu'l which for her means on a par with AC or Westjet economy. Basically economy air travel is glorified Greyhound from our perspective.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

How old did the plane look? Any idea what the age of the fleet might be?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

No.

Had the flight been closer in price to the majors we may not have tried them. $260 vs $550 for the same flight, same day was too large a delta not to try them. My son flew Flair last summer with no issues, as did other friends of ours. It is a bus, like the others. Reminds me of when Westjet first started up.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> How old did the plane look? Any idea what the age of the fleet might be?


They have old planes and they have brand new planes. Their 738's are new as of 2019.
They used to be a charter airline. Fly crews in to work camps while at the same time do around the world trips for luxury travelers. They've worked for the military before as well. They do some charter flights for Air Transat
Flair I think does some of their own maintenance. They have a long standing relationship with KF aerospace out of Kelowna. KF does maintenance on a lot of the 737's in Canada including for WJ, Swoop, AT, sunwing etc. I don't know if they also do Flair.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Interesting, I looked at some pricing. Occasionally I'm seeing AC prices below Flair, which I didn't expect.

This is good for competition. We need competitors like this to press AC back to reality.

Currently I always fly WJ and AC domestically but will certainly start pricing Flair as well.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I suspect the stars were aligned on this fare. It was only booked a week in advance. The AC/Westjet fares seemed high to us. The Flair price base was $199 (260 with seat and carry on). Had we been booking further out I suspect the delta would have been less. We only considered Flair because it was a direct flight, first thing in the morning. 

Another consideration was the short time frame bewteen ticket purchase and trip. Not certain that we would have taken the chance had it been a few months. Just read that Jetsgo in the UK was saved by the UK Govt days prior to closing down. There are a few others on the edge. I believe that Norweigan also has financial challenges.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Interesting, I looked at some pricing. Occasionally I'm seeing AC prices below Flair, which I didn't expect.
> 
> This is good for competition. We need competitors like this to press AC back to reality.
> 
> Currently I always fly WJ and AC domestically but will certainly start pricing Flair as well.


They are piss poor at advertising. Many people here in Edmonton (their main hub) have never heard of them. I'm not worried about AC with them, but WJ (through Swoop) might be in the predatory mood. Currently they don't have a lot of overlap on their flights, so it's been good.
Cousins came out from Abbotsford to Edm on a return flight on flair a year ago. The base fare was only $8 each way.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The new Onex ownership of Westjet might be interesting. I hope it doesn't make the airline worse.

One should not dismiss AC. The flights can sometimes be very cheap, one just has to shop around. I recently did a pretty long distance round trip to the US for only $350. Pretty crazy to go that distance at just $175 each way. These things happen... always search around. And if you don't like the prices, leave it alone for a week, and search again


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I do not recall ever seeing a Flair advert. Read about them once in the financial column. The reason we checked was pure word of mouth, two friends, and then our son booked them. The reviews are all over the place from awful to fine. Probably depends on whether the flights were on time and what the airline did when things went pear shaped. Stealth marketing at it's best.

DW said the plane was fine and was not showing any age. Not crowded. The middle seat on her row was empty as were quite a few others.


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