# Best price for renovations?



## yousufj56 (Oct 4, 2018)

Not sure what kind of details you would need to be able to help me better. Let me know and i can try to provide. 

So I'm doing massive renovations and got a quote from a guy. 

This is the work that needs to be done which he quoted me for: 

1. Tear down kitchen wall to make it open concept. Its an L shaped wall. One side is 125" and the other side is 109". Width of the wall is negligible i think. Height of the wall (up to ceiling) is 97". There is some wiring he needs to work around.

2. Place the engineered hardwood on. (engineered hardwood not included). There is approximately 850sqft worth of floor that needs to be completed. 

3. He will demolish another wall; just dry wall, no wiring inside. Size is: 81" long height 97" tall. 

4. Tile the washroom; 81" by 100"; tiles not included

5. Setup the sink and counter top that we will provide. Setup a new toilet (we will provide). 

6. Get ceiling ready for electrician. He said he will use a 2" dry wall type material to add to the ceiling, covering the entire home. Assume 1000sqft worth of ceiling. 

7. Install doors we provide. 

For this work, he quoted $28,000

I'm not familiar with renovations, but this does not sound like an expensive job. Does anyone have any recommendations on how I can complete the described tasks for the best price possible? I also need to renovate the kitchen cabinets, but apparently hes not good at it, so im not using him for this.

Here is the condo floor plan if it makes a difference: 

https://imgur.com/a/KuY3Z5Q


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

I looked at the big box stores when I redid my kitchen. Rona actually had the best rates. They have good quality semi custom made cabinets by Orchard Park ,a division of Masterbrand- one of the largest cabinet makers in the US. Solid wood, dovetail joins, Soft close, wood drawers etc. Rona did a tearout then new kitchen and powder room install w cabinets, sink, countertop , toilet, microwave for ~ $13,000. 

Found specialty flooring companies to be cheaper for that. Had 315 sq ft of laminate installed for $2500 including the flooring. Everything including handles, new microwave, new sinks , paint (I did the painting) , new toilet was $15,300 for the two rooms. 

Get good semi custom or custom cabinets. Heard horror stories from the installers about budget stock cabinets arriving where almost 1/2 were defective. Not very good quality


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## yousufj56 (Oct 4, 2018)

So then this guys estimate sounds right?


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## Numbersman61 (Jan 26, 2015)

It is most important that you check references. Don’t worry about the price but be concerned about the quality of the work and the materials supplied. I’ve been through two major renovations. In the first one, 12 years ago, my late wife hired a friend’s husband to be the project manager on a-cost plus basis. We had to fire him because he was way out of his depth and had overstated his creditionals. At the end, we ended up managing the project with top of the line sub trade contractors. Two years ago, we had a major Reno on our current home. Hired a contractor who previously built estate homes (due to Calgary economy now is doing Reno’s) and had no issues. Fixed price contract - Reno was expensive but quality and process was exceptional.


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## Jimmy (May 19, 2017)

Sorry I quoted a price including the cabinets. 

It is hard to say. The labor for all the work I had done was only $3,600 for the kitchen/powder room and $1,200 for the flooring. Was basically 4 days of work so ~ $1,200 a day. I had my washroom re done too and labor was ~ $ 4,600 for 4 days so about the same. I know these guys were reasonable compared to Home Depot who was more than double. 

Maybe see how many days he is working to compare. Maybe get another quote from Rona or maybe a bath/kitchen specialty store to compare.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I’d be concerned more about the person than the price. You are removing a couple of walls, is one a supporting wall? Do you know how to even tell? Removing the wrong wall, or removing it incorrectly can have major implications later on. 

There is a big difference betweeen various contractors, anyone can declare that they know what they are doing, and many people jump into this industry when they lose their jobs. Having been in real estate a long time, I can tell you a good contractor is hard to find...lots of lipstick dealers out there. 

If it were my home, I wouldn’t be worrying about the price so much as the person’s ability to do the work properly. Also beware of the “contractors” from the big box stores. While the places provide some “guarantee” on the work, most of their installers are low priced, low experienced people. 

There are ways people cut corners too that still look “professional”. When I install flooring for example, I don’t do transitions between rooms, I cut the floor to go under cabinets and around obstacles. My floors are seamless, it’s a lot of extra work, I also minimize waste materialsand make sure it’s level and smooth. Contractors tent to come in, slap down a floor, put treansitions in between rooms and get out quick. 

Muddling and drywall also takes time...at least three coats with sanding in between...without the right lighting, you often can’t see the imperfections right away...but you’ll notice them eventually when you live there all the time. 

None of this kind of work is very difficult, anyone can learn to do it, but there is a big difference in the quality of the work. All my rentals are done to a standard higher than most builders I’ve seen today, so there are a lot of poor contractors out there that should be avoided.

As for price, you’re going to live there a long time, if the work is done well, it’s money well spent...if not, you got screwed. 

The place where you can really save is shopping for materials. If you’re not set on specific colours, or materials, you can shop the specials at the various big box stores. They price match and even beat prices in certain cases and have sales on every weekend. Many of their sale products are high quality, lost leaders. Also they have clearance items (once picked up a 36” side by side, black stainless fridge for under $1000 which had a list price of over $4500 because it was old inventory that was lost in their back area for over a year. Brand new, warranty, still in the box...just an old model). They also have bulk discounts, reward cards, etc. 

Also, look for package deals. I had to build a garage last year, had a quote on packages from all the major box stores. Home Depot matched prices, including Rona’s discount. Then we went through the package and made substitutions. Home Depot was selling two 9x8 doors for $350 each as a special which was significantly less than the $1300 they had for a standard 16x7 door. Changed out windows and doors for cheaper in stock items as well...in the end I paid less than $5000 including siding and everything for the materials. The original cheapest quote was $7500 and didn’t have the fancy doors and windows I got.

Done a lot of cabinets over the years...can say there’s not a lot of difference between the various particle board ones out there and solid wood ones are hard to find. IKEA ones work well and last. Changing up the doors and handles can make them look quite high end, especially if you throw in a couple of glass doors and lighting effects. They go on sale every 3 months or so. 

Don’t “reface” cabinets, I’ve actually found it cheaper to replace them than hire one of those companies.

The old saying “good, fast or cheap...pick any two” usually holds true here but beware, I’ve seen crappy contractors who charge a lot because people believe “you get what you pay for”. You really need to see examples of their work. Not pictures either...pictures lie. You need to see and feel their work.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I agree that finding the right contractor is the most important factor by far. The best way by far to find a good contractor is by word of mouth and references. I live in a small town and that actually makes it easy to find a 'good' anything you want. Ask 6 local store owners or residents for a good plumber and chances are you will get the same 2 or 3 suggestions. Bad contractors can't survive in a small town. Everyone would know. If I ask here about an electrician for example I get a list of 3 or 4, all of whom I am confident will do a decent job. When we asked around town before doing a complete bathroom reno, we got 4 names of custom home builders. All reliable. One consistently was referred to as 'they're the best but they cost a bit more.' That's the one we ended up going with. 

If you don't have easy access to word of mouth recommendations, then you certainly need to get more than one quote and you certainly need to get references and follow up on those references. That means asking to visit their previous customers homes and seeing the work. 

On another note, you mention it is a condo. Have you checked with the condo rules as to whether what you plan is allowed by the condo corporation? For example, in some condominiums, 'engineered' flooring is not allowed as it transmits too much noise to the unit below you. It may be allowed but specify a particular type of under flooring system etc. 

You mention remove another wall, if it is a bearing wall as mentioned above, it could be you aren't even allowed to touch it even if what the contractor would do is within building regulations as to being properly beamed etc.? You mention doors, are they interior only doors or say the door to the balcony or to the common hallway? Either of those might be something you are not allowed to do. Never do anything in a condo before making sure you are allowed to do so. I always remember a couple who decided to paint their balcony a different colour on top of the 'stucco' walls and concrete floor. They then had to pay to have that paint they slapped on themselves in a weekend, professionally removed.


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## Onagoth (May 12, 2017)

Have you considered doing it yourself?

I saved between 20-30k doing my basement myself. I only had some free family help with hanging the drywall 

Mistakes were made and some tools had to be bought, but I came out way ahead and I think the workmanship was better than most contractors


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## Danny (Oct 17, 2012)

I think you may want to let people know what city you are in. I'm sure there are people on here with great references for you. For instance if you are in Ottawa I could give you a name of a great contractor. He may not be the cheapest ( depends on what you are looking for ) but i could tell you he is very good. Used him lots..Just a thought.


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## yousufj56 (Oct 4, 2018)

Very good stuff here guys. I live in Toronto. This condo is in Scarborough, which is still technically Toronto. 

I have a close relative that owns a few rental buildings. And they had hired these guys to do all their buildings. That's how I found out about them. Their work was really good apparently.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

28K just in labour? If I understand right, you are supplying almost all materials (at least all the expensive ones).
Yes, that's outrageous.

Yes, to all the other things that people have mentioned. Is it a wood framed condo, or concrete? Wood frame means any wall could be load bearing, there could also be hidden common utilities. Has the condo board given the approval to renovate? Taking out walls would be of concern to them, tiliing and replacing a kitchen would not.

I'd say there's 8-12K worth of labour in your job. At least where I live.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Onagoth said:


> Have you considered doing it yourself?
> 
> I saved between 20-30k doing my basement myself. I only had some free family help with hanging the drywall
> 
> Mistakes were made and some tools had to be bought, but I came out way ahead and I think the workmanship was better than most contractors


I did my entire basement myself too...except for the drywall mudding. I could have done it but it would have taken me 4 or 5 coats and it would have been "good" at best. But, I knew a guy who is very skilled that did it at a great price.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Be careful with references, especially where they come from. We renovated three homes, one extensive. Did much of the work ourselves and subbed the rest out. I was lucky enough to have a good friend who is/was a master electrician.

Don't focus on price. Focus on getting reference from or through someone you know vs from the renovator or the building supply firm. The latter has more focus on how good a customer the renovator is and how they pay their account.

In our experience, drywallers/tapers are the absolute worst in showing up when promised. Don't be afraid to break things up. We went out for quotes of repairing/refinished a large area of hardwood plus new stair stems and railings. The quotes were high. So I broke it down into two jobs and saved a fair bit. It seems that the flooring guys were all subbing the railings and then adding their overhead to it. Worked our well. 

Never pay up front.


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