# When to unload your jalopy



## underemployedactor (Oct 22, 2011)

Anyone have any kind of formula for when it's time to bring the curtain down on your car?
My mechanic told me that the average car has average maintenance of about $2000/year. I'm at less than that, but a number of fairly expensive preventative maintenance issues are looming (timing belt, transmission fluid change etc.) Anyone have a handy formula to calculate the risks/ rewards of hanging on to an older car?
I'm at 8yrs 160k and I've never owned a new car in my life.
TIA


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Transmission fluid takes me about 5 mins to change with a wrench and funnel. It's a 1 or 2 beer job max. The typical 150k timing belt/water pump etc is maybe the most expensive scheduled maint but then it's done for the next 150k. If you take it in ask them to do a good inspection as every car wears depending on how you drove/maintained it etc. Nobody here will know if it's worth keeping without seeing it.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Too many variables really. How much work can you do yourself, how much you drive, how far you drive. Things like that.

I traditionally look at it a couple of ways. 0k-100k is smooth sailing 100-200k is minor issues and replacement of parts due to wear. 200k+ is time to start thinking about replacement when a big issue comes along.

I just replaced a truck at 245k. It was also 20 years old. The front end was bad, and I wasn't sure why. Ball Joints, tie roads, shocks and steering box may have all been the issue. I could do the work myself, but it was still going to be a tonne of money and time.

I roughly figure it like this: Is the cost of the repair going to be more than the vehicle is worth? And is anything else potentially going to go wrong this year?

BTW, I may be in the minority, but I've never done a timing belt or a tranny fluid change. I/my family have owned an 86 ford f150 that lasted 14-years and 225k, an 89 lesabre that went 17 years and 225k, a 2000 intrepid that went 12 years and 245k and a 1994 Suburban that went 245k and 20 years. In each and every case it wasn't the motor/tranny that went bad. The body went bad on the ford, the frame rotted out on the lesabgre, the intrepid was flawless until the internal water pump leaked into the motor.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

In my opinion, $2,000 per year is about 100% too high. I would bet most people, with a car your age, get by with less then $1,000 in repairs/maintenance. That number would be about 25% of the average depreciation, most people who buy new cars, pay. 

Add your own depreciation to the equation and you will probably pay about 1/2 the cost of what a person driving a brand new car will pay. 

Obviously there are exceptions, but very few in comparison to the number that fall within the above numbers. So all that being said, if you want to spend the least amount of money on automobiles, drive your car until you can see the moving road through the rusted holes in the floor.

Your mechanic is not a good source of knowledge since he probably gets to see more of the broken cars, when the majority of cars are out on the road and not in his garage.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> I roughly figure it like this: Is the cost of the repair going to be more than the vehicle is worth? And is anything else potentially going to go wrong this year?


When a car gets older, though, I feel like the "is the repair going to cost more than the car is worth" becomes less relevant. Many repairs will cost more than the car is worth, but if the repair keeps you from having to buy a newer car for a few years, it could be worth it.

Years ago I sold my old Honda Civic to a family of four for $350 -- it had 250,000 miles on it when I sold it to them (402,000 km), so it was probably worth about $350. They drove it another 100,000 miles after that, and they told me they only had minor repairs, although some of them were probably more than $350. For them it was worth it because the car lasted so long.


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## Taraz (Nov 24, 2013)

I retired my last car when it was over 20 years old because the body was rusting out. For the most part, it ran fine otherwise - if it wasn't for the rust I would probably have kept driving it. I think it had about 380,000 km on it at the end.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

I agree for the most part Brad. That's why I added the caveat of "Is anything else potentially going to go wrong this year?" Maybe a better measure would be "Is the cost of yearly repairs more than the yearly cost of a new car?"

At least for me, when I say goodbye to a vehicle, it isn't just one thing that pushes it over the edge. It's the big thing that does.

I say the bad front end doomed my truck. But the gas lines were bad, the radio had a hum in it I couldn't find the reason for. The exhaust was getting old and had a hole, the instrument panel had pulled away form the rest of the dashboard. The running board supports had given way and flapped in the wind, the tires were bad, the signal light switch wouldn't return after making a turn. The AC stopped working years ago, the rear brakes were seized and didn't work, the front rotors were toast.

I agree with Optsy though. $2,000 seems far too high.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

$2,000 a yeah is too high for sure, esp. for a "car" (vs. a pickup truck).
I am driving a 14 year old car (bought it new), and my average annual costs are less than $1,000.

That includes not just maintenance, but all kinds of replacement as well (incl. winter tires, breaks, etc.)

Not including gas and insurance, of course.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Two cars in the family. 7 and 12 years old. Quicken tells me we spent $1200 on parts and repairs in 2012 and 2013. $300/year/car on average. The number doesn't include regular oil changes.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

crazyjackcsa said:


> BTW, I may be in the minority, but I've never done a timing belt or a tranny fluid change.


It's called "preventative maint". Instead of replacing relatively cheap fluids and belts, you are risking the tranny and engine. Of course the belt can last longer.. but if it breaks you may write off the whole car.. Transmission oil is like engine oil - cheap insurance and a 5 min job..

If you sell a car that is worth less than the repair, then what do you buy? The best deals on used cars by far are the ones that need typical repairs.. I prefer to get better parts anyways, as nearly all the oem stuff is inferior and overpriced. Some used cars can easily become better than new.


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## stardancer (Apr 26, 2009)

Part of my reasoning when thinking about replacing a vehicle is- do I still trust it? With Northern Ontario weather and lonely roads, I will not allow myself to get stuck with a car that breaks down. It's not so bad now that we are retired and don't drive around as much, but that was always one of my main considerations when we were working.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

I try to ball park it around the cost of a lease at $1000/year. For example, I bought my SUV for 7.5k there for I will keep driving it for 7.5 years. After that, the vehicle doesn't owe me a dime! Another example is if I purchased it for 7.5k, I will then drive it for 3 years and sell it for 4.5k .... so on and so forth at any number of years and depreciation. Once major maintenance starts exceed 1k a year, I consider selling. Another milestone for me is the 200 000km mark, the value starts to take a nose dive -- so I will consider selling at that point as well.

My SUV is a 2005 running at 205 000km. I have owned it for 3 years I have maintained it for around $1000 a year in parts and labour -- I am considering selling it next year around the 3.5 to 4k mark before the maintenance bills start to increase.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I think part of the problem is that major maintenance/repairs are so unpredictable. My car will be 9 years old next year; in 2013 I had to spend $4,000 on repairs, maintenance, and new parts (including 4 new snow tires), but this year I've spent less than $400. I've often found that I might have one or two high-expense years in a row that make me think my car is on its last legs, but then it goes for three or four years with nothing but standard maintenance visits.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

m3s said:


> It's called "preventative maint". Instead of replacing relatively cheap fluids and belts, you are risking the tranny and engine. Of course the belt can last longer.. but if it breaks you may write off the whole car.. Transmission oil is like engine oil - cheap insurance and a 5 min job..
> 
> If you sell a car that is worth less than the repair, then what do you buy? The best deals on used cars by far are the ones that need typical repairs.. I prefer to get better parts anyways, as nearly all the oem stuff is inferior and overpriced. Some used cars can easily become better than new.


What I mean is that the tranny fluid and timing belt on everything I've ever owned has lasted longer than the rest of the car and was never the reason for replacing the vehicle. I did a tranny fluid change in a 1990 Jeep once. The fluid coming out was indistinguishable from the fluid going in. Better still, just keep an eye on the tranny fluid instead of just blindly changing it.

It's also about how you view the vehicle. If I allotted $3,000 a year on maintenance every year from new, I could conceivably never need another vehicle ever again. Everything would be replaced and repaired well ahead of when it was needed.

A friend on mine does this. He boasts that he has over a half million kilometres on his truck. Turns out he's really on his second motor and third transmission and a whole slew of other parts, basically it's the frame, rims and seats that have seen the distance.

Or, I can alot $1,000 a year to do the bare minimum. Oil changes, brakes and what not. Coolant gets changed when a rad goes, brake fluid when the brake lines go, that sort of thing. And then in 15 years when time catches up to it, I can just buy a new vehicle with the money I saved.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

brad said:


> I think part of the problem is that major maintenance/repairs are so unpredictable. My car will be 9 years old next year; in 2013 I had to spend $4,000 on repairs, maintenance, and new parts (including 4 new snow tires), but this year I've spent less than $400. I've often found that I might have one or two high-expense years in a row that make me think my car is on its last legs, but then it goes for three or four years with nothing but standard maintenance visits.


That's my experience exactly.

$2,000 per year average sounds high. Although if you are just talking about a period when the car is older ie 6 years old +, then it might not be too inaccurate.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

stardancer said:


> Part of my reasoning when thinking about replacing a vehicle is- do I still trust it? With Northern Ontario weather and lonely roads, I will not allow myself to get stuck with a car that breaks down.


This is my reasoning as well. Do I trust it? Do I trust it with my family and friends in it? If the answer is no, then it's time to look for a new vehicle. If the answer is yes, then I do just above bare minimum for repairs as 90% of the time, repairing will always be cheaper than buying something else.

I don't fix everything as it doesn't affect the safety or driving performance. My car now has a minor electrical issue with a mild whine in the stereo and the headlights dim when i touch the breaks (only momentarily). After sitting for more than 6 hours, the engine will have a hiccup approximately 3 mins after starting. Interruption or air in fuel supply lines I imagine, but it only happens the one time. The backlight on the dashboard clock doesn't work. Paint on the hood and roof is atrocious. All these things give the car 'personality'. Right now, I like Gord the Accord's personality, but if he starts to turn in to an unsafe prick, it's off to kijiji for him.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Spend about $1,500 in maintenance in 2013 to keep my 2000 Mazda on the road. I hope to keep it running for another 3 years.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> What I mean is that the tranny fluid and timing belt on everything I've ever owned has lasted longer than the rest of the car and was never the reason for replacing the vehicle. I did a tranny fluid change in a 1990 Jeep once. The fluid coming out was indistinguishable from the fluid going in. Better still, just keep an eye on the tranny fluid instead of just blindly changing it.


What you will start to notice is that your gears will start to shift slower and at higher RPMs and if left long will start to bang into gear as opposed to the smooth transition one gets when the tranny fluid is newer. This all pertains to automatic transmissions.

Many people may not notice the slow shifting and when they get to the hard shifting point they tend think that there is a major problem and take the car into a mechanic who probably does some $1,000 repair, when all that was really needed was new tranny fluid ... unless this goes on too long and then what is needed is the $1,000 repair.


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## emptywallet (Dec 16, 2013)

crazyjackcsa said:


> BTW, I may be in the minority, but I've never done a timing belt or a tranny fluid change. I/my family have owned an 86 ford f150 that lasted 14-years and 225k, an 89 lesabre that went 17 years and 225k, a 2000 intrepid that went 12 years and 245k and a 1994 Suburban that went 245k and 20 years. In each and every case it wasn't the motor/tranny that went bad. The body went bad on the ford, the frame rotted out on the lesabgre, the intrepid was flawless until the internal water pump leaked into the motor.



None of those vehicles you listed have a timing belt.


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

Actually, I find that as long as I am asking the question "is it time to let 'er go?", it isn't time yet. When the time actually comes, it's pretty obvious.

But that's me. I live in a city, and have a cell phone, and don't really have to worry about being stranded in the muskeg.


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## underemployedactor (Oct 22, 2011)

It's been a cheap car to run, but the timing belt/water pump kit, ball joints and ATM fluid change is going to run me about $1200 so it started me thinking about putting that toward another used jalopy. It's never failed to start on me or broken down, partly I think because I religiously do all the scheduled maintenance and regular oil changes. The mechanic gave it a thorough inspection and everything else appeared fine. I guess the consensus here is it's probably cheaper to pay for these repairs and run it a few more years than to get something else. And at least it's the devil you know. Ps M3P, I'll happily give you four beers if you come and change my tranny fluid for me!


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

for me, the indicator is when brake lines and or fuel lines start to rot out.
That's a good time to say bye bye to a car.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Fuel and brake lines can be a killer if you don't do them yourself, that's for sure. This is kind of where my thinking comes in. You're at 8-years. 160k. All of things SHOULD be done, but do they NEED to be done? Do you know how to check ball joints?

It's clear you aren't in love with the car, so, drive it into the ground! Fluid change? Screw it! Ball joints? Not until they're clunking! 
I'd also say there's little point in trading in a "used jalopy" for another "used jalopy".


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## northernguy (Oct 19, 2013)

Another factor is that you might be better off repairing anyway if the car still has value - selling a decent car needing repairs will end up being sold at a discount, so you need to factor that in.


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## randomthoughts (May 23, 2010)

I wrestle with this myself. For now, I've decided that $1k per year is reasonable, with any un-used portion carrying over - because there might be years with no repairs required, or others with an expensive repair required.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

underemployedactor said:


> Ps M3P, I'll happily give you four beers if you come and change my tranny fluid for me!


I've done it for others for just 1, but I forgot to mention the typical beer is 500ml +7% and I do prefer a trappist tripels. Actually my house is cleaned and looked after for free and I must have saved a small fortune over the years because I'm not scared of a little grease. It's amazing how simple most repairs actually are and how much mechanics charge.



crazyjackcsa said:


> It's clear you aren't in love with the car, so, drive it into the ground! Fluid change? Screw it! Ball joints? Not until they're clunking! I'd also say there's little point in trading in a "used jalopy" for another "used jalopy".


I agree that it's foolish to change things just because the dealer says so, but it's also foolish to ignore preventative maint. You're risking being stranded, or worse safety of everyone, plus $$$$ must do emergency repairs because you skipped on cheap preventative maint when you could shop around when you had the time etc etc. Some things you can easily tell if they are still good and others you just might as well replace while you're there..

Driving a car into the ground just means it shifts like crap, loses power and fuel efficiency, pollutes and leaves you stranded blocking traffic etc. In most developed countries it's actually strictly illegal to do for the safety of everyone and for the environment as well. I feel the difference when I change transmission fluid, and it costs very little compared to the price of the tranny..

Why even brush your teeth at $5/month when you can run them into the ground much cheaper if you can endure a little pain and smell?


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

m3s said:


> Why even brush your teeth at $5/month when you can run them into the ground much cheaper if you can endure a little pain and smell?


Well now your just being silly.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Get rid of it when it needs too much in repairs. This is a judgement call.

Incidentally how do you know it needs a timing belt and trans fluid? You should go by the maintenance schedule in the owner's manual not by the guy at the gas station or even at the dealership.

I say this because about 10 years ago I looked in the owner's manual to see when I should replace the timing belt and to my surprise, there was no mention of it. When they first started using timing belts they had to be changed at 100,000KM but now they seem to last the life of the car.

What they did recommend changing was the alternator brushes @ 150,000 KM which I never heard of before. Sure enough the alternator light came on at 183,000 but, being forwarned I put in a $12 set of brushes instead of a $320 alternator. Did not even need to take the alt off the motor. It worked perfect as long as I owned the car.

So, now I read the manual and go by it too.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

When it does not run anymore lol.
Years ago i had a truck(98 gmc sierra)I ran the truck so hard!had auto body damage(that i did not get fixed)my shocks from carrying excess weight were shoot,and a host of other things.
One night driving home from work my truck started smoking and i pulled into 7/11 and the truck literally blew up and puked nearly every fluid,billowing smoke.
I sucked everything i could out of the truck(was even stolen in its life and recovered)


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

donald said:


> When it does not run anymore lol.
> Years ago i had a truck(98 gmc sierra)I ran the truck so hard!had auto body damage(that i did not get fixed)my shocks from carrying excess weight were shoot,and a host of other things.
> One night driving home from work my truck started smoking and i pulled into 7/11 and the truck literally blew up and puked nearly every fluid,billowing smoke.
> I sucked everything i could out of the truck(was even stolen in its life and recovered)


You almost have to say a few words and observe a few minutes of silence, before you let them tow a friend like that away.


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## underemployedactor (Oct 22, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Incidentally how do you know it needs a timing belt and trans fluid? You should go by the maintenance schedule in the owner's manual not by the guy at the gas station or even at the dealership.


The manual suggests both at 100,000km so I am a little overdue. From what I understand, a failed timing belt can render your whole engine unrepairable, so I figure it's worthwhile insurance. Just wish the bill wasn't coming at this time of year.


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