# Different demographic here?



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

It wouldn't surprise what I suspect the majority gender might be here...


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

...and of course, more women getting serious in investments on their own.


----------



## Ricehammer4416 (Jan 6, 2021)

I suspect you're dealing with a vast majority male population. I know very few women who invest.


----------



## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

Trans? Trans is not a gender, there's only 2 genders.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ricehammer4416 said:


> I suspect you're dealing with a vast majority male population. I know very few women who invest.


I think men are more prone to delusions of 'beating the market' or engaging in high risk stock picking. I imagine the vast majority of folks that lost everything in FTX were male.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Thal81 said:


> Trans? Trans is not a gender, there's only 2 genders.


I guess the more 'PC' option would be 'non-binary'. Trans folks would ID as man or woman.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I guess the more 'PC' option would be 'non-binary'. Trans folks would ID as man or woman.


Maybe, for some people "trans" is their identity/gender.

I think people have really tried to stretch the idea of gender to include things that others don't think belong there.
As for my "gender identity", I'll go with what is convenient for social interactions.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

No category for motaurs ?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> No category for motaurs ?


Not a gender


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Ricehammer4416 said:


> I suspect you're dealing with a vast majority male population. I know very few women who invest.


Interesting.

I don't know any women who trade but I know just as many women who invest as men. Conversely, nearlyball of the men I know who identify as investors are actually short term traders.

From my tiny sample group, women tend to do a bit better than men in long term investing.

I have no idea how a trans lifestyle affects investing abilities. Perhaps someone will do a study on HRT as it affects lifetime returns. It wouldn't surprise me if an M2F trans lost the drive to frequently trade crypto, commodities, and equities during transition.

Meanwhile, F2M trans likely struggle with grossly exaggerating their trucks fuel economy and lying about their trading results.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

+1 to TomB16! If anything the 3rd choice should have simply been Other to be more correct. I choose not to vote in stuff like this.

I know women from Millennials to Boomers that invest. Anecdotally, I suspect they also are likely to do better than testosterone laded male 'traders' overall. I also suspect female participation in forums is somewhat proportional to the civility and signal to noise ratio of individual forums.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ricehammer4416 said:


> I suspect you're dealing with a vast majority male population. I know very few women who invest.


I think that is sexist.
I also think it's wrong, in my experience women are more likely to invest and manage finances.
I find men are typically more lackadaisical about finance in general, though some take it very seriously.

That being said while I think the median woman is more financially savvy than the median man, they don't tend to talk about finances and economics at parties.


----------



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I think that is sexist.


You think it is sexist that Rice suspects most investors are male and that he doesn't personally know many women who invest?

How is that sexist?

He didn't say "Investing is only for men."
That would be sexist.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

PSA: The genders which people may identify with (not that it should matter) are female, male, gender-fluid, and non-binary. Just because one does not understand, take time to educate yourself. If it doesn't impact, you personally what someone else identifies with, do not make an issue out of it. If you are cis-gendered, consider yourself fortunate that you do not have to struggle with the challenges of being transgendered.


----------



## Ricehammer4416 (Jan 6, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> I think that is sexist.
> I also think it's wrong, in my experience women are more likely to invest and manage finances.


You're entitled to your opinion. I maybe wrong, but I don't feel it's sexist.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> No category for motaurs ?
> 
> View attachment 23928


Are you trying to be funny? You have always been very liberal in your views and I thought you believed in social equity, yet posts like this make a mockery of a those that are struggling in the LGBT2Q+ . Just surprised that you would mock a group like this.


----------



## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I don't know any women who trade but I know just as many women who invest as men. Conversely, nearlyball of the men I know who identify as investors are actually short term traders ...


For my family, including spouses - it is slightly more women than men. Most are buy and hold but two (one male and one female) have placed short term trades, once in a while.

About half are DIY types who place their own trades for their buy and hold portfolio.


Cheers


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> Are you trying to be funny? You have always been very liberal in your views and I thought you believed in social equity, yet posts like this make a mockery of a those that are struggling in the LGBT2Q+ . Just surprised that you would mock a group like this.


 ... I don't think sags was trying to mock that group.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

I'm a woman and invest like one but talk like a guy 'cause I got to. Well, at least got to here on CMF.

I think that Trans category can be changed to "Gender-neutral". But I honestly don't think it makes any difference of what sex/gender you are when it comes down to "investing" aka making (or trying to make) money.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Ricehammer4416 said:


> I suspect you're dealing with a vast majority male population. I know very few women who invest.


I think it depends on other factors than just gender if the women invest or not. I would say age, culture, education, make-up of family income, the composition of the family, and division of work would be some other factors that will determine if they invest or not.

Traditionally, I think it is fair that it was the 'role' of the man to bring home the bacon, and often they made a lot of the long-term family decisions. Wives who stayed at home with the kids, worked part-time or made less, and were often less educated because they would be out of the workforce to give birth. would probably take on more of the day-to-day operating of the house and child-rearing. You see lots of female widows right now quite clueless about their finances, and male widows quite clueless about how to operate the household. My parents were very much like this. They let their spouses handle the money stuff while they handle the house stuff. My mom was always worried about what would happen to her if something happened to my dad left since she had little education, couldn't speak the language well, and no experience. She always stressed the importance of being able to be able to support myself as a female but couldn't tell me how other than through education. 

I was lucky that I had my dad who was smart with money, though also not educated, he was able to teach me alot of the basics. Nothing about investing though. He just bought real estate and saved really well. I had older male siblings who all took business and learned and taught me about finances and investing. I also took business in university for this reason. My spouse grew up in a similar environment as me, but it was his mother that did the finances and the investments. Now of it was passed down to my spouse or his sibling. In my family, I do ALL of the fiancial planning, and have my spouse pay the bills because I am busy with other day-to-day things. Many of my friends in my age group are the same. Less of my female friends choose to stay at home and had good incomes/educations so a higher percentage of them do invest. However, they don't talk about it like the males do. I am not sure why that is. Perhaps, there is less trading, and more of a less exciting system, of putting some money away in some funds every month. 

Millennials consisted of more families in which both parents worked. They were the start of the internet information age where financial information was readily available to those wanting it. It was less intimidating to DIY or go online than to go to a broker. I can tell you there were lots of gender stereotypes by financial advisors. My early ones took me on because my older siblings had large accounts there. I was quite knowledgeable, but the first 2 always assume my spouse was more knowledgeable and always ask if it was okay to confirm with him before we made decisions on our joint accounts. You would think after a few calls to my spouse, and the reply was 'Whatever my wife says it is the right thing, she handles this', would get them to stop it. My last two advisors know that when I say something, I know what I want. With my nieces and nephews and their friends in this age group, they are getting married later if at all, all of her friends invest and manage their own finances. It's those that have good incomes regardless of gender are investing. 

It's pretty fair to say that in the older boomer generation, that more men invest and manage finances than women. 

Gen X was raised by mothers who wanted their girls to not rely on males quite as much, but still had many of the gender stereotypes and in many cases were unable to transfer any 'knowledge' for investing to their girls. So, I would say, there are still more men in this age group, because there were still a lot of income inequities.
Millennials - it's less about gender, more about income. The knowledge is now available.
Gen Z is just getting to the age of having a little money. Parents talking to their kids not based on 'gender' role but rather life skills. So I think it will even out.

If we look at this site, I believe the demographics here is older, more established people, which would lead to more men. Not saying women cannot be investor, but I am guessing the women spouses of the males here did take on more of a role as I described for their generation. 

If you look at my kids who are teenage girls, they would never come on a forum, but know alot more about money than their male counter parts. That's not due to gender but rather the family they are born into.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I don't think sags was trying to mock that group.


Without context, if someone else had posted that, I would consider it mocking. That's why I asked @sags to clarify because he generally doesn't insult this group.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Good post #20. I can assure you all of our Gen-Xer females, almost entirely university graduates, are as savvy financially as their male spouses, in a few cases better because they are more thorough in their analysis and less likely to take disproportionate risks. Some of them have chosen to be the lead in their financials while a few others defer to some degree. Good on them!

Added: I do agree with PA that within 'my' boomer cohorts, it has been and remains quite male dominant, but not nearly as it was with pre-boomers..


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Perhaps men are more obsessive about money (I certainly am) and are more interested in talking about it constantly, like on forums.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Are you trying to be funny? You have always been very liberal in your views and I thought you believed in social equity, yet posts like this make a mockery of a those that are struggling in the LGBT2Q+ . Just surprised that you would mock a group like this.


Poking fun at the notion that gender identification would make any significant difference in investing decisions.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Poking fun at the notion that gender identification would make any significant difference in investing decisions.


Thanks for the clarification. I thought you were making light of the fact that some do identify differently than the gender they are born with or are non-binary or gender fluid. I agree with you that gender identity shouldn't make much of a difference.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

If I identify as a senior, do i get the discounts?


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> If I identify as a senior, do i get the discounts?


Yes, most likely at many place. However, some senior take offense to the 'term' seniors and prefer the term 'older adult'. 

Being of senior demographic would probably make more difference than what you identify in as gender.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> If I identify as a senior, do i get the discounts?


Only if they identify you as one and of course give discounts.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Only if they identify you as one and of course give discounts.


”they“ can’t choose my identity!


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> ”they“ can’t choose my identity!


Why not ... they give discounts based on "their interpretation" of what a senior is.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> Yes, most likely at many place. However, some senior take offense to the 'term' seniors and prefer the term 'older adult'.
> 
> Being of senior demographic would probably make more difference than what you identify in as gender.


I am happy to identify as a senior, past it, an OAP, oldster a fossil, , over 65, or whatever as long as there is a discount attached to it. 

This past June we enjoyed a month 50 percent seniors discount on every Portugal Rail fare.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Perhaps men are more obsessive about money (I certainly am) and are more interested in talking about it constantly, like on forums.


I think there are many reasons more than males are more interested in money than females. I can't quite put my finger on it. I have spoken to other females who feel the same way, and we are interested in money too. Here are some random occurrences that I have experienced (posting more to perhaps help gain some personal insight):

Growing, up there was 'nice girls don't talk about money,' how much things cost, etc. outside of the home. At home, we always talked about money. I don't know if this was a gender thing, but I know more females that were taught, and role-modeled that it was impolite for a female to be too interested in money. This continued as I became a young adult.
Comments would be made to my boyfriend (now spouse) when I had large promotions. Often, I made more than him, and his friends would tease him. I told him to 'get over it or get out'.
During my bar days (over 20 years) ago, the number of males that would try to 'flex' and show off their money or finances as pick-up lines was ridiculous. My single, very attractive girl friends would have young finance and bank guys try to pick them up and flex at how much money they had or would potentially have because they were so good in investing. I don't know why males would often drop stock markets, equities, finance, and all of these things while trying to pick up my friends at a bar. A few times, we would jump in on conversations and converse about portfolio allocations, m&m theory, essentially holding our own. EVERY SINGLE time, the guys would look in shock that not only were we not impressed by their knowledge but could hold our own or even know more.
The number of times my friends or I have been 'man-splained' on financial matters is ridiculous. I had one tell my best friend she knew nothing about this big deal that happened in our city, only for me to say it was my brother that closed that deal (which was one of the larger acquisitions in Canada that year). Again, he was offended that we knew so much about the details.
When some have heard my interest in money and finance, I have been referred to as greedy, a gold digger, agressive, money hungry, etc.
Even in recent history, talking about money at work, I get the same thing. The males talked about investments, retirement, money, etc. I chime in, and they were surprised. Fortunately, they know what I am like professionally, and it's a more 'normal' conversation now. I remember listening to a few of them complain about their wives' spending habits and comparing me to them. They would make passive-aggressive comments that when I went on holiday, I was spending all the family money or that I wanted 'pretty and expensive' things for our renovation, when in fact these descriptions are more like my husband.
I bored one time and calculated my exact retirement dates and with different scenarios. As a joke, when they guys were talking about how much more time to retirement (we are on a db pension). I gave my date which was an early retirement date. Someone actually said, nice that your husband makes enough that you won't have to work. WTF?

I do all of the long-term planning for our finances in my household, and I am not bad at it. I don't share much with people except when it comes to frugality because there have been enough negative reactions from males in the past, that at my age, I have nothing to prove. I have found some of the older females as I described in my previous post was just taught that that was something they shouldn't worry about. The ones that are more have more income means or are single will talk about it with me, but don't like talking about it with males. 

I do talk about finances with my kids and close friends (both male and female) all the time. The other day at my kid's girl guides meeting, I ran a financial learning section. At the beginning of the meeting, I had a parent come up to me, and offer to let the 'dad' teach the unit if I wasn't comfortable about finances. They knew nothing about my background. I thanked them and told them that I could cover the basics for what a pretween/teen could take in a couple of hours. They could do a second session if we need to go deeper. I also said, it's important for the girls to see that females understand finances too. The girls loved it, the leaders also loved it. The parent caught the last part of it and saw the materials and was really surprised. Again, if was a different topic, they would have never questioned me. 

I honestly think that society has been conditioned to think that females don't know as much about finance. and if they do, they must be a gold digger. That's been changing with the millenials, and Gen Z.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

ian said:


> I am happy to identify as a senior, past it, an OAP, oldster a fossil, , over 65, or whatever as long as there is a discount attached to it.
> 
> This past June we enjoyed a month 50 percent seniors discount on every Portugal Rail fare.


I just laugh. I was consulting on a strategy project for 'older adults'. The people working on the project were younger than me (in their mid 20's_, so for a while I couldn't' figure out who the heck the older adult was, and was I who they were referring to (I was under 40 at the time). The project team then told me when they were soliciting feedback from the public, people would not come if you called it a 'Seniors' study. 

My spouse was so happy that he got to play in a senior's hockey league when he turned 50, except they id' him. We are totally okay with being called seniors evening I am under 50 if that means I get a discount.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Plugging Along said:


> I think there are many reasons more than males are more interested in money than females. I can't quite put my finger on it. I have spoken to other females who feel the same way, and we are interested in money too. Here are some random occurrences that I have experienced (posting more to perhaps help gain some personal insight):
> 
> Growing, up there was 'nice girls don't talk about money,' how much things cost, etc. outside of the home. At home, we always talked about money. I don't know if this was a gender thing, but I know more females that were taught, and role-modeled that it was impolite for a female to be too interested in money. This continued as I became a young adult.
> Comments would be made to my boyfriend (now spouse) when I had large promotions. Often, I made more than him, and his friends would tease him. I told him to 'get over it or get out'.
> ...


Awesome comments.
By the way, I also participate in another Internet forum past 15 years: a cycling forum which coincidentally has 90% participating men. Rest are women. All of us bike / have biked, age range starts from late 40's and up. Yes, there are at least 20% that are retirees.

It's a slow process to even get some of my closest female friends, to talk about finances...I mean come on, we're going to retire or some have retired. That requires serious financial planning. The biggest step to get some guys and some women who are afraid, is when a woman buys their own home ....solo. That is the strongest, first step of publicly signalling for any person of their financial committment. As we all know, this is a life changing/major event in terms of investing. So part of my conversation with female friends, starts with talking about their investment in their home as a solo purchaser. Then sometimes the conversation might move a little further on other related topics on financial planning.

But I haven't talked about investments on certain stocks, etc. yet. So far it's sharing info. about tax-saving strategies and about RRSPs, pensions, TSFas, executor role, etc.

All my close single female friends own and live in a home. Some own a house. 1 person lives/owns a house and also a condo in another province.. These are boomer women and university/college educated. I am dimly aware of my 2 sisters (boomer + Gen-X), do read up on financial matters. 1 of them is married to a former lawyer for the Ontario Securities Commission in Toronto. Even my "poorest" sister who is a receptionist, owns and lives in a Toronto semi-detached. She is not comfortable about investments.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Beaver101 said:


> I'm a woman and invest like one but talk like a guy 'cause I got to. Well, at least got to here on CMF.


I suppose we're not supposed to talk about the sale deal on a winter coat, etc.?  We're supposed to swagger and talk serious ('cause we are) about NTR, SHOP, CP, CN, BMO, CPX, TFII (I wish I bought more), XUU, MG (guess things will improve once semi-conductor chip supply improves/ war in Ukraine is over), etc. which is what I do hold.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> You think it is sexist that Rice suspects most investors are male and that he doesn't personally know many women who invest?
> 
> How is that sexist?
> 
> ...


I think when he says 'investing' he probably means 'trading'. I don't think it is likely that few women buy investments/save. Lots of women buy investments, but are less likely to engage in dubious stock picking.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

andrewf said:


> I think when he says 'investing' he probably means 'trading'. I don't think it is likely that few women buy investments/save. Lots of women buy investments, but are less likely to engage in dubious stock picking.


Times are changing andrew

I had 2 female colleagues (20s) who were very aggressive stock traders. Not only were they more likely to use leverage than I would, they also took profit just as aggressively. Of course anyone could make money during a bull run but they learned very fast. One bought an RV and "retired" early (digital nomad business) and the other is an extreme workaholic millionaire by 30

Like many things they were more likely to ask/listen to advice. The young guys either didn't ask for advice and learned the hard way. Not all of them some did extremely well on TSLA and did ask my opinion. A big part of it was that in the US everyone is trading on mobile apps and talking about it. They are able to start trading younger and there's far more information and discussion around it

How this impacts society is another topic. There are 2nd and 3rd order effects especially on relationship dynamics.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> I think there are many reasons more than males are more interested in money than females. I can't quite put my finger on it. I have spoken to other females who feel the same way, and we are interested in money too. Here are some random occurrences that I have experienced (posting more to perhaps help gain some personal insight):
> 
> Growing, up there was 'nice girls don't talk about money,' how much things cost, etc. outside of the home. At home, we always talked about money. I don't know if this was a gender thing, but I know more females that were taught, and role-modeled that it was impolite for a female to be too interested in money. This continued as I became a young adult.
> Comments would be made to my boyfriend (now spouse) when I had large promotions. Often, I made more than him, and his friends would tease him. I told him to 'get over it or get out'.
> ...


👏👏👏👏


----------



## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

I am male and I have retired early thanks to many factors, 1) parsimony 2) good salaries and 3) passive, often blind investing in various funds for many years.
Both my wife and I are from very poor backgrounds and we both share a fear of old age poverty but found talking and thinking about money excruciating difficult at times. Anyway when we moved from QC to Ont we bought our first house and we met up with a financial advisor. From there on in we were "investing" and looking for ways to pay off our house as fast as possible (manulife.) 
I'm babbling here but No male or female dynamic really, both equally uncomfortable talking money but both motivated by fear of an undignified old age.
We both retired this year at 53 and 50 and in our household it is my good lady who is the one who has the detailed spreadsheet, which in truth only came into being when we were told we could retire early and we struggled to get our heads around it.


----------



## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

"Geezer" 70-79
"Codger" 80-89
"Fossil" 90+
I've quite enjoyed being a Geezer.
I will hit Codgerdom next year. 
When I'm "Fossilized" I will continue my lifelong motto of "One day at a time".


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Interesting post #40. I didn't know that's what they call/label you as in those age categories.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Plugging Along said:


> I do all of the long-term planning for our finances in my household, and I am not bad at it. I don't share much with people except when it comes to frugality because there have been enough negative reactions from males in the past, that at my age, I have nothing to prove. I have found some of the older females as I described in my previous post was just taught that that was something they shouldn't worry about. The ones that are more have more income means or are single will talk about it with me, but don't like talking about it with males.
> 
> I do talk about finances with my kids and close friends (both male and female) all the time. The other day at my kid's girl guides meeting, I ran a financial learning section. At the beginning of the meeting, I had a parent come up to me, and offer to let the 'dad' teach the unit if I wasn't comfortable about finances. They knew nothing about my background. I thanked them and told them that I could cover the basics for what a pretween/teen could take in a couple of hours. They could do a second session if we need to go deeper. I also said, it's important for the girls to see that females understand finances too. The girls loved it, the leaders also loved it. The parent caught the last part of it and saw the materials and was really surprised. Again, if was a different topic, they would have never questioned me.
> 
> I honestly think that society has been conditioned to think that females don't know as much about finance. and if they do, they must be a gold digger. That's been changing with the millenials, and Gen Z.


When I was 13 yrs. old, my father told me price tag $19,000 to buy their lst house in 1972 in K-W. To this very day, I don't know why he told me. I merely assumed being the eldest of 6, it was to teach me something.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Interesting post #40. I didn't know that's what they call/label you as in those age categories.


Zipper's categories are informal definitions for social purposes. Actual definitions are Boomers born 1946-1964 and Silent generation (or pre-boomers) born 1945 or earlier. 

From my perspective (mid-70s), I am still a boomer, not a geezer or codger but some days, I feel and act like one!!!!


----------



## Ricehammer4416 (Jan 6, 2021)

andrewf said:


> I think when he says 'investing' he probably means 'trading'. I don't think it is likely that few women buy investments/save. Lots of women buy investments, but are less likely to engage in dubious stock picking.


In fact I did mean trading but either way - I saw this conversation veered off into the bushes pretty quickly with the name calling so I didn't feel the need to clarify. But thanks for picking up on that.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Zipper's categories are informal definitions for social purposes. Actual definitions are Boomers born 1946-1964 and Silent generation (or pre-boomers) born 1945 or earlier.
> 
> From my perspective (mid-70s), I am still a boomer, not a geezer or codger but some days, I feel and act like one!!!!


 ... still interesting though. Better than being called an old man as soon as your kids turn 12 or have a mind of his/her own like we used to call my dad "my old man (or old lady) this and that" and he was only middle age like 40 something. Kind of regret that. The boys were the worst with those labellings.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

One doesn't escape being called an 'old man' or 'old lady' by any younger generation. It has been a nothing label from my perspective beyond meaning just a generation older than the individual calling me that. 

It eventually comes with 'privileges' such as CPP and OAS, 'respect your elders', or 'don't give a damn what you think' or doing second childhood things like buying a convertible sports car just because.......

Us real oldies have paid our dues and the end is near... days, weeks, months, or less years than we care to admit.


----------



## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Be thankful if you get 30 000 days and are still lucid!


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> If I identify as a senior, do i get the discounts?


I've been getting senior discounts since I was 50. It started when I saw an ad for a class in how to use a computer for "seniors 45 and older". So I figured, why not?
I found in stores and fast food places the teenage clerks would give me the discount without question, the older ones would say "you don't look 65" and I would say "I take vitamins". This usually got a laugh and sometimes it got the discount.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I hate categories like boomer, Gen X etc. I am supposed to be a boomer but have absolutely nothing in common with any boomer, hippie, yuppie, I ever heard of. I have hated being pigeon holed by ignoramuses since being called a "kiddie" at 5 years old.
How many of you are with me on this?


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I hate categories like boomer, Gen X etc. I am supposed to be a boomer but have absolutely nothing in common with any boomer, hippie, yuppie, I ever heard of. I have hated being pigeon holed by ignoramuses since being called a "kiddie" at 5 years old.
> How many of you are with me on this?


I don't care either way. I am simply who I am. The categories simply provide an easy way to package social discourse.


----------



## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

There is a difference between sex and gender. Sex is biological, and usually defined by physical and physiological traits - 2 sexes. Gender is a social construct, with as many as 75-100 defined.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Retired Peasant said:


> There is a difference between sex and gender. Sex is biological, and usually defined by physical and physiological traits - 2 sexes. Gender is a social construct, with as many as 75-100 defined.


Yes/no.

For many people "gender" is simply the social/cultural presentation of "sex", which is why for many people who don't pay attention to all this nonsense, they're pretty much interchangable.

The real problem is that people are trying to inject gender as a substitute for sex in the treatment of people, which is the problem.
For example, womens sports, this is a sex based category, but they're arguing that it's a gender based category.

I think the explosion of "gender as an identity" means we should simply get rid of gender, and have "biological sex", and personal identity, as the gender category has exploded so much as to be meaningless at least in english.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Yes/no.
> 
> For many people "gender" is simply the social/cultural presentation of "sex", which is why for many people who don't pay attention to all this nonsense, they're pretty much interchangable.
> 
> ...


It's only non-sense or interchangeable when one is fortunate enough to born cis gender. For those who are not, cis gendered, it matters. For me, as a cis gender person, I don't pay attention because 99% of time of my life it was correct. When someone makes an error on a trait (not just gender), it does matter to them and isn't nonsense

Consider if you have kids, and when they were babies if you ever had a situation when someone got their sex wrong, parents would 9/10 times correct them. Why is that important? My girls were usually in gender neutral or blue clothing and many made comments on cute little boys. I have seen little boys with long hair and in 'boy' clothing and been told what cute girls. Parents will almost always correct.

Those incorrectly labelled a different nationality (Asia - Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc, European - Italian, German, Spanish, you name it) will often correct or be a little annoyed. More annoyed when they say 'oh you all look alike'. 

Why is this? Because when we identify with some characteristic and someone makes and error as who we identify as, we feel a little less validated. It may seem like nonsense to you, but for someone trying to be who they are, its a big deal. I don't know how old your kids are but it's no different when teens do feel accepted (not just about gender). 

Your whole idea of getting rid of the idea as gender identity as a whole seems interesting, but not necessarily possible in society. It would only be possible if people didn't put ANY traits to biological sex other than the physical ones. Yes females have female parts, males have male parts. That's where it would have to stop. Societies since the beginning of time have associated biological sex with too many gender traits. It would be the equivalent of getting rid of race. Until society stops with comments like that's a boy thing or girl thing, or that more stereotypes, then it is necessary to have a distinction of biological body parts and sex vs ones gender identity. 

My intent is not to argue but rather have discussions to bring different views. We have this discussion far too much with my teens who are 'woke' but have really changed my views on this.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> Your whole idea of getting rid of the idea as gender identity as a whole seems interesting, but not necessarily possible in society.


I don't see why.



> It would only be possible if people didn't put ANY traits to biological sex other than the physical ones. Yes females have female parts, males have male parts. That's where it would have to stop. Societies since the beginning of time have associated biological sex with too many gender traits.


Uh yeah, and just treat people equally as individuals to the extent possible and is appropriate.
I don't see a problem with that, do you?



> It would be the equivalent of getting rid of race.


Uh yeah, that's my point, and actually my goal.
People shouldn't be treated differently due to their race to the extent possible and is appropriate.



> Until society stops with comments like that's a boy thing or girl thing, or that more stereotypes, then it is necessary to have a distinction of biological body parts and sex vs ones gender identity.


Uhh, then stop with the boy thing and girl thing garbage.
(I wanted to insert the boys or girls toy flowchart, but the forum is blocking it, go google it)



> My intent is not to argue but rather have discussions to bring different views. We have this discussion far too much with my teens who are 'woke' but have really changed my views on this.


What view changed, mine is pretty simple.
1. People should be treated pretty much the same, irrespective of sex, race etc.
2. In cases where there is a biological difference due to sex or race etc, that should be accommodated and treated appropriately.

Cultural practices such as separating the sexes in a non-discriminatory way is just fine.
For example I do not think it is appropriate to force mixed-sex changerooms, yes, this is a societal/cultural practice, and I'm okay with maintaining it.

It's important to note, I don't support treating anyone different because of their gender, or other identity, because I simply don't care.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I hate categories like boomer, Gen X etc. I am supposed to be a boomer but have absolutely nothing in common with any boomer, hippie, yuppie, I ever heard of. I have hated being pigeon holed by ignoramuses since being called a "kiddie" at 5 years old.
> How many of you are with me on this?


 ... could be worst when being called "Hey You".


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Cultural practices such as separating the sexes in a non-discriminatory way is just fine.
> For example I do not think it is appropriate to force mixed-sex changerooms, yes, this is a societal/cultural practice, and I'm okay with maintaining it.
> 
> It's important to note, I don't support treating anyone different because of their gender, or other identity, because I simply don't care.


I don't really understand it from the non-cis gender perspective but it's the same with all other societal/cultural practices

People used to be marginalized for their sexual preferences and people still are marginalized if they don't fit what is considered "normal" These are societal constructs around what is normal. For example we don't socially ostracize people for getting divorced or pre-marital relations, or wearing polyester anymore

Basically society changes over time as people become more aware of marginalized people


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> I don't really understand it from the non-cis gender perspective but it's the same with all other societal/cultural practices


I partially (even largely) understand it.
I just disagree with the relative importance.



> People used to be marginalized for their sexual preferences and people still are marginalized if they don't fit what is considered "normal" These are societal constructs around what is normal. For example we don't socially ostracize people for getting divorced or pre-marital relations, or wearing polyester anymore
> 
> Basically society changes over time as people become more aware of marginalized people


But some people SHOULD be marginalized, because they're doing bad things.

The question is people disagree on what those bad things are.
I also think bad behaviour shouldn't be normalized.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> But some people SHOULD be marginalized, because they're doing bad things.
> 
> The question is people disagree on what those bad things are.
> I also think bad behaviour shouldn't be normalized.


Reminds me of that Canadian song "Signs"

We have lots of societal rules that are based on nothing logical. Some people seem to get really offended by people doing things that don't hurt anyone

We used to think a lot of things were bad behaviour that really weren't "As is tradition"


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> Reminds me of that Canadian song "Signs"
> 
> We have lots of societal rules that are based on nothing logical. Some people seem to get really offended by people doing things that don't hurt anyone
> 
> We used to think a lot of things were bad behaviour that really weren't "As is tradition"


And today we condone behaviour that is bad, and does hurt people. Which is my point.
We even have some behaviours (many) that are good in some circumstances and bad in others, or they are even good/bad at different levels or perspectives.


I'm not concerned with the bad actions that are condemned, and the okay actions which are permitted..

I am concerned with the bad actions that are permitted and even encouraged, as well as the good actions which are condemned.

The thing is, if you're aware, you'll see things aren't as black and white as you once thought, and also things may not appear what they seem at the first glance.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think a lot of the trans panic is purely in the minds of conservatives. How often are trans people actually causing problems in washrooms, changerooms, etc. The vast majority of the time, it happens without people even noticing. These days, you have masculine seeming (ie butch) women being harassed for using the women's washroom. Where does it end.









Butch lesbian opens up about 'increasing harassment' she faces when using the public toilets


The Government is carrying out a consultation into the provision of public toilets for men, women and gender-diverse people




inews.co.uk





Conservatives have been whipped into a frenzy about trans kids, when it is very rare that kids receive any kind of medical intervention. Hardly the millions of kids of conservative fever dreams/alternative facts.









Conservative Matt Walsh Gets OWNED By Facts On Joe Rogan Podcast


Conservative Matt Walsh Gets OWNED By Facts On Joe Rogan Podcast#Shorts #TYT #News #Government #Politics #CenkUyger #AnaKasparian #Podcast #Facts #FactChecke...




www.youtube.com





Four times the number of kids are killed by firearms each year than are treated with puberty blockers. What is the right more concerned about--the slaughter of children or gender affirming care?


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I don't see why.
> 
> Uh yeah, and just treat people equally as individuals to the extent possible and is appropriate.
> I don't see a problem with that, do you?
> ...


I used to believe everyone should be treated the same or in EQUALITY. However, I have changed my views more as I realized I believed in EQUITY. Equality moves things forward and possible prevents further marginalization but ignores that there was any marginalization in the past. Essentially, it sends them message, 'yeah, maybe you were wrong in the past, but get over it, and move on'. Equity recognizes how the wrongs from the pasts impacts ones future. 

Let's use the example of a a person that has been in a serious work accident. They physically recover from it after a long period of time. Before you treat them the same as everyone else and make them go back to the work, there are some impacts that may need accommodations, even if it's not physical (that is equity). Are you okay with this? Now, imagine multiple incidents of harm. That's what marginalized groups feel. 

Also, though you may believe that you personally may not discriminate, I am going to guess that there are some unconscious bias that you may have. I was surprised at how many I had when exploring more, and that comes as a female minority. 

I used to believe that people should not be treated differently based on sex, race, etc. That would be great if magically EVERY single person in the world got rid of their conscious and unconscious bias. Even if we stop treating people differently, the system was built by the opposing groups. This is why equity is required. The system that was built has marginalized groups and has cause harm. This harm must be dealt with via equity not equality.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I partially (even largely) understand it.
> I just disagree with the relative importance.
> 
> 
> ...


There is a difference between not accepting bad behaviour and being assumed that you will do that bad behavior because of how you look, religion, gender, etc.
Or certain behaviors are okay by one group but not from another due to how they look.

Interesting fact - Jeffery Dalmer was stopped several times by police when he had his victims drugged out vwith him just before he would rape/sexual assault and kill them. He was able to explain his way out becuse his victims were usually minorities (black, Hispanic, and a few Asians) and many of the LGBT commuting. Police did not want to investigate and took the word of the white male. This still happens today.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I think a lot of the trans panic is purely in the minds of conservatives. How often are trans people actually causing problems in washrooms, changerooms, etc. The vast majority of the time, it happens without people even noticing. These days, you have masculine seeming (ie butch) women being harassed for using the women's washroom. Where does it end.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So true. I was really concerned when they introduced legislation for trans washrooms/change rooms into the schools. Not that I had any issues with those that identified differently. I was more concerned about teenage boys/girls being in the change room or over field trips with my daughters while trying to figure their identities. The school did a good job by introducing gender neutral bathrooms and change room. They are single stalled and anyone could use them. For overnight camps, we just had the first one last year, and they had a gender-neutral dorm. This was a little tougher because of the kids felt more comfortable there, but was forced to the girl's dorm (as birth sex) because their parents didn't accept to him coming out and wouldn't consent to the gender neutral dorm. My daughter was going to stay with him because they were friends before he identified as a male. We were okay with it. Instead the kid was so upset, they went home that night, and didn't come back for the rest of camp. What horrible feeling not to feel like yourself and have your parents not accept you for who you are. There would have been absolutely no impact on the other kids to have this kid feel accepted in gender neutral dorm. 

We do know of 3 kids on puberty blockers. 2 I have no doubt will choose to go through a medical transition later in life, but they are okay with that now as growing teens to get to live as their transgender without more permanent measures, the third will figure it out. None of them went on the puberty blocker without alot of medical consultation and counselling. 

My colleague whose about 10 years older than me was just telling my how over Covid her young adult child official came out. Her child is a fully grown now is struggle living in a body that doesn't feel right. She actually said to me she wished that it was talked about more 15 years ago about puberty blockers. By doing it would have given her child the opportunity to delay puberty until they knew what their identity was. Now, as the child is absolutely sure they are not cisgender, the only options are more invasive medical procedures to remove things that could have blocked at puberty. She said the most interesting thing as a parent. Ultimately, she wants her child to be happy. She is worried that if they make medical changes now, that if their child changes their identity, it will be even more difficult to change back. However, the conundrum is that the person has already lived unhappy for so long in the wrong body, she would hate for that feeling to last any longer. It's the question of how you know if a change will truly bring happiness vs living in known hell now. 

I hear so many conservative thinkers say that kids and teens don't know enough to make decisions on their gender identity, but this is exactly the time to do it when actions can be taken to delay puberty and give them time to figure it out. Also, as minors it gives them supports from the parents. Sure, it's trendy and some kids will test identity with out really knowing, but does it hurt accept them unconditionally and guide them in their exploration. Gender neatral washrooms don't seem like a really big deal in the big scheme of things.


----------



## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Plugging Along said:


> We do know of 3 kids on puberty blockers. 2 I have no doubt will choose to go through a medical transition later in life, but they are okay with that now as growing teens to get to live as their transgender without more permanent measures, the third will figure it out. None of them went on the puberty blocker without alot of medical consultation and counselling.
> 
> My colleague whose about 10 years older than me was just telling my how over Covid her young adult child official came out. Her child is a fully grown now is struggle living in a body that doesn't feel right. She actually said to me she wished that it was talked about more 15 years ago about puberty blockers. By doing it would have given her child the opportunity to delay puberty until they knew what their identity was. Now, as the child is absolutely sure they are not cisgender, the only options are more invasive medical procedures to remove things that could have blocked at puberty. She said the most interesting thing as a parent. Ultimately, she wants her child to be happy. She is worried that if they make medical changes now, that if their child changes their identity, it will be even more difficult to change back. However, the conundrum is that the person has already lived unhappy for so long in the wrong body, she would hate for that feeling to last any longer. It's the question of how you know if a change will truly bring happiness vs living in known hell now.
> 
> I hear so many conservative thinkers say that kids and teens don't know enough to make decisions on their gender identity, but this is exactly the time to do it when actions can be taken to delay puberty and give them time to figure it out. Also, as minors it gives them supports from the parents. Sure, it's trendy and some kids will test identity with out really knowing, but does it hurt accept them unconditionally and guide them in their exploration. Gender neatral washrooms don't seem like a really big deal in the big scheme of things.


I have much learn about transgender decision-making at such a young age... I do believe boys and girls just be allowed to role play and play with whatever toys at young age unrestricted. 

If a boy is knitting or sewing at young age, is that terrible, especially to a father/other siblings? A sister of mine has her young teen son, occasionally knitting a scarf thing while on a long car trip: he has mild attention deficit disorder: This is one way for him to "calm" down with safe /productive mindless activity. We STILL have alot of gender biases on certain activities. Still many cultures expect women to do all the cooking. This may even extend who looks after a frail elderly parent.... It wasn't long ago, the idea of male nurses seemed abit odd. Now, during covid and on...we need as many trained nurses given our shortages. 

As an example, in the Internet cycling forum where I participate for last 15 yrs. (80% guys, rest women..approx. 75 regular participants): some guys did mention they did their own occasional mending /use a sewing machine. They sounded sheepish to even have told us. There should not be that bias for that practical skill to even tell others in apologetic way. An air pilot does leathercraft at home....and has 3 sewing machines for leather. Which sounds acceptable and more manly.

There is 1 guy, now a grandfather, told us he went through periods of uber manliness (fighting back other boy bullies, weightlifting, etc.) because it was to suppress a lifelong need to be...a girl/woman. He knew this all along around 4 yrs. old. 

Cycling forum where I hang out is pretty broad in terms of lifestyle/income...I don't think we have anyone gay. But some have gay siblings and gay adult child. 1 woman has a young adult in transgender process.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Four times the number of kids are killed by firearms each year than are treated with puberty blockers. What is the right more concerned about--the slaughter of children or gender affirming care?


Yes, and they should stop both problems (if they are actually problems)

What's you're point?
We shouldn't use firearms in a harmful manner
we shouldn't use drugs and medical interventions in a harmful manner.

Do you disagree?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jlunfirst said:


> I have much learn about transgender decision-making at such a young age... I do believe boys and girls just be allowed to role play and play with whatever toys at young age unrestricted.


Yes



> If a boy is knitting or sewing at young age, is that terrible, especially to a father/other siblings?


Of course not, it's a basic skill, one that I personally have, and I'm not a millenial.
I actually got near perfect grades in home-ec.

This is about permanent harm being done to children and sexualization and exploitation.
Not "boys doing girl things"

FYI, I know a LOT of boys who excel at "many sports", because, while being exceptionally gifted, they also took a lot of dance class when they were younger.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Plugging Along said:


> There is a difference between not accepting bad behaviour and being assumed that you will do that bad behavior because of how you look, religion, gender, etc.


Obviously.



> Or certain behaviors are okay by one group but not from another due to how they look.


I think the behaviors that are okay by one group but not from another is/should be exceptionally small.
I personally don't use the N word, but I don't think that it should be celebrated when one person does it, and harshly condemned when another does it, even if they're both singing along to the same song.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Yes, and they should stop both problems (if they are actually problems)
> 
> What's you're point?
> We shouldn't use firearms in a harmful manner
> ...


Please explain your concept of non-harmful child gun deaths. Do you think parents should be trusted to make medical decisions for their children?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Please explain your concept of non-harmful child gun deaths.


Huh? what are you talking about?
While there are some cases where a child gun death happens and is warranted, I think it's still harmful by definition








Columbus, Ohio, police release bodycam footage of officer fatally shooting Black teen


Police showed bodycam footage of an officer shooting a teenager, who was Black, as she appeared to attempt to stab two people with a knife.



www.usatoday.com







> Do you think parents should be trusted to make medical decisions for their children?


In general yes.
In particular I think parents or guardians should be involved in significant medical procedures.
There is a reason we generally don't hold that minors are able to give full consent.


----------

