# Ontario moving forward with Liberal majority..the new experiment?



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok, CMF is getting rather boring again..miss the politics discussion.

Will the new math of pedagog Ms Wynne be better than the funny math of Whodat? More new revenue streams (new taxes) coming up and massive spending to stimulate Ontario's economy. Wynne-win is claiming she will balance the
budget no later than 2016-2017. Ok this year is practically shot..we are almost at July and nothing has been done so far...summer vacation coming up..so that leaves a couple of months before the Christmas break.
No doubt, once the election dust and hoopla settles, the Fiberals will get to work spending our money..,.we don't got!




> Ontario is about to live through a kind of experiment: that a government can spend the province into a better economic place by directing public money into businesses and infrastructure, in the hope that this injection of public money will create eventually more revenue for the treasury. Ontario, with its debt mounting, can only hope the day when higher interest rates arrive – and that day will come – might yet be some years away.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ad-ontarios-basic-moderation/article19155917/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Wynne has already announced she will re-introduce the budget, and there is no money allocated for higher costs in the public service. Her comments regarding union participation in the election were interesting. She said, and I believe there is truth to her statement, that she has always said she will re-introduce the budget......and those who campaigned for her (or more properly against Hudak), should have known there would be no new spending in the public service........and if not, they will find out shortly.

As per the Globe and Mail article.

Overall.......one of the better balanced articles I have read, 

But, the author doesn't mention the value of the government investment in the Toyota plants in Cambridge or Woodstock, or in keeping the GM CAMI plant open in Ingersoll.

Those are a lot of well paid jobs, that created a lot of spin off jobs. At this point in time.........they all appear to be busy.

There is value in good roads and highways, not only for commuters to reach their workplace, but also for companies to ship their goods?

There is value in good transit systems in a world class city like Toronto, where millions of people must use public transit.

Delays in infrastructure spending cost money. It is never cheaper to complete projects in the future.

Today we need the jobs and the infrastructure. Public spending is necessary for both.

I believe we heard the same rhetoric from the Republicans in the US, as from Conservatives in Canada today, when they were fighting over the debt limits and budgets in the US.

The Republicans were claiming there was no benefit to the spending and demanded cuts. They claimed the US debt would be downgraded to junk status.

Contrary to all those predictions, the US deficit has fallen........their economy has strengthened, and the US dollar remains a safe haven for investors.

Recognizing that failure in policy, the Republicans moved from the economy to Obamacare and now to immigration and other "issues".

Ontario's debt to GDP is better than many other countries and jurisdictions. The problem isn't uncontrolled Ontario spending on programs and services (as was recognized by the Drummond Commission). It is the rise in the Canadian "petro-dollar" and poorly designed and implemented free trade agreements, which combined have devastated the export based economy in Ontario. 

Both are out of the control of Ontario politicians..............and sit squarely on the shoulders of the Federal Government.

If Wynne can simply "hold the line" on future government spending...the deficit will decrease naturally as the economy expands.

It is a tough place for Ontario to be in. Ontario governments have to deal with the repercussions of legislation and decisions made at the higher level and the costs that are passed down. An example is the increased costs to the judicial system from mandatory sentencing and changes to the early release programs. They are federally mandated laws, but Provincially funded costs. Our courts have become clogged up......and our prisons are overcrowded, to satisfy an ideologically driven political agenda on the Federal level of government.

Ontario is also often referred to in the media as a "have not" Province, based on Federal/Provincial transfers. The fact is that Ontario sends billions of dollars MORE to Ottawa than it receives back in transfers to pay for education, health care and other services. On a per capita basis........Ontario is receiving one of the lowest rates of all the Provinces.

The expenses of the judicial system that are passed down.......and the Federal/Provincial per capita transfer rate......are two issues that Wynne has pledged to address. Ontario wants the Federal government to pay the incarceration costs for inmates beyond a 6 month period...........and wants to negotiate a fair per capita rate of transfer payments.

Does she have the will to make tough decisions? Time will tell.........but a majority government makes it considerably easier.

I do see some noisy public battles ahead between Wynne and Harper.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

sags said:


> Wynne has already announced she will re-introduce the budget, and there is no money allocated for higher costs in the public service.
> ...
> those who campaigned for her (or more properly against Hudak), should have known there would be no new spending in the public service........and if not, they will find out shortly.


That is just another blatant, white lie.
What about the 8% raise that the OPP is about to get this year?
They knew that...that is why they launched a very aggressive, divisive, and FUD-filled campaign against the PCs.

sags, _*there is no freeze on public sector costs*_.
Anyone who claims that is flat out lying.
Wynne cannot do it even if she wanted to, and she doesn't even want to.

Wynne was planted (by the PSUs) to replace Dalton McGuinty precisely for this reason.
MCG had become a big PITA for the PSUs.
He introduced a public sector wage freeze bill twice.
He was resistant to the teachers' demands for raises in 2012.

So, it was time for him to go.

KW is far more amenable to their interests.

Don't you see what's going on with the teachers in BC - and that is a dyed-in-wool Liberal state.
There is no public sector wage freeze.

If KW is counting on a public sector wage freeze to balance the budget, oh well, good luck to her.
Her "math" is even more flawed than Hudak's.



> If Wynne can simply "hold the line" on future government spending


She can't. She won't.
That is why she was elected by the public service.

This election has been all about class warfare - the entitled public service workers vs. the un-entitled private sector workers.
The former want higher taxes and more govt. spending (but only in certain sectors and areas).
The latter wanted lower taxes and less govt. spending (esp. on the first group).

The former got out the vote better than the latter, and therefore, they won.

Congratulations on 4 more years of hardcore tax-and-spend policies.

But anyone seriously hoping for _holding the line_ on govt. spending and a public service wage freeze should give their head a shake.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here we go...more taxes on the horizon..

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/publication/budget-highlights-2014-en.pdf


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

sags said:


> It is the rise in the Canadian "petro-dollar"


This whole "petro-dollar" thing is just another FUD created by ignorant, ideologues such as Justin Trudeau and Mulcair.
The price of crude oil is at multi-year highs right now.
The spread between WTI and Brent is at all time lows.
Natural gas prices have recovered more than 300% since the $1.97 lows

Pray, why is our dollar at $0.91 USD then?
It should be $1.15 to the USD.

Petro-dollar is misdirection and FUD created by manufacturing and auto unions and re-tweeted by ignorant politicians.

The interests of the auto & manufacturing unions is clear:
- Depreciate the CAD to hide the inefficiencies and subsidies and give a "boost" to exports
- More bailouts, grants, subsidies, and "support" to the auto sector
- Make local gasoline more and more expensive so that more cars can be exported to the larger markets in the US


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I wish the Wynne Government well-they certainly do no have much financial wriggle room.

A lower dollar by itself is not the cure all for Ontario and Quebec manufacturing sectors. A huge driver is the fact that productivity in Canada, vis a vis our competitors, has been decreasing-ie not going the right way for the past few years. Lack of investment in new plant, equipment, and technology is the driver. And the investment in plant, equipment, and technology will result in far fewer manufacturing floor jobs. There will be jobs in other areas but they will be different. This is the real challenge for those engaged in manufacturing. 

The plant that produced a million stoves with 800 people on the payroll will have to retool and produce two million stoves with 300-400 employees plus a huge investment in technology. Those 500 jobs will not come back.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

fraser said:


> A lower dollar by itself is not the cure all for Ontario and Quebec manufacturing sectors.
> ...
> Lack of investment in new plant, equipment, and technology is the driver.


Both of those are two sides of the same coin.
The misguided lobbying and whining by the auto/manufacturing unions for a lower CAD$ is a double whammy for the economy as a whole.
It makes procurement of new technology plant & machinery more expensive for businesses, and therefore, they don't re-tool as often as necessary to stay competitive.
It also chases capital away because of low interest rates, over-regulation, over-unionization, and general lack of competitiveness.

On the other hand, it makes imports more expensive for consumers.
In a country where we import even our food, let alone consumer goods and oil, this causes unintended consequences.
Therefore, consumers spend less, depressing the overall market.

Ignorant ideologue career politicians like Wynne cannot be expected to understand the intricacies of currency, inflation, capital inflows/outflows in current & capital accounts.

All they care about is which public sector union group can they give more raises to so that they can get re-elected.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/outgoing-ontario-mpps-earn-2-8-million-severance-202827223.html ... with this kind of status quo :disgust: , good luck to wiping out the deficit for the next generation even (never mind about the current one).


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/outgoing-ontario-mpps-earn-2-8-million-severance-202827223.html ... with this kind of status quo :disgust: , good luck to wiping out the deficit for the next generation even (never mind about the current one).


Can't put this one on the Liberals.

I believe the Mike Harris PC government introduced these severance packages when they eliminated MPP pension plans in 1996.

The Liberals introduced legislation that would freeze MPP pay until 2019. 

Hopefully, they will re-introduce the legislation and it will pass with a majority government.


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## Sammi (Nov 12, 2013)

carverman said:


> Here we go...more taxes on the horizon..
> 
> http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/publication/budget-highlights-2014-en.pdf


Can someone clarify the dividend tax credit. It is going up from 6.4% to 10% for eligible dividends. Is that a good thing?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> On the other hand, it makes imports more expensive for consumers.
> *In a country where we import even our food, let alone consumer goods and oil, this causes unintended consequences.*
> Therefore, consumers spend less, depressing the overall market.
> 
> ...


 Politicians know absolutely nothing about the economy..other than what they are told by others that influence them on their decisions. Unlike other careers where university training and experience is necessary for the person to be productive..politicians are voted in on popular appeal..so they go about making decisions based on political reasons, and not the proper reasons.

Good thing they are not building or fabricating anything...because nothing they produce would work. 
The complex effects of political decisions on the economy..well let's say it takes a bit more knowledge than reading to preschoolers or driving a tractor or standing in front of a camera and firing accusations at your
opponents.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/outgoing-ontario-mpps-earn-2-8-million-severance-202827223.html ... with this kind of status quo :disgust: , good luck to wiping out the deficit for the next generation even (never mind about the current one).


Wonder how much Hudak will get when he quits his leader role for the pC (tea party). He's still an MPP drawing a $100k plus salary, but since he resigns on July 2, after how many years as head of his party? 
Lets see 2014 - 2009..thats about 5 years being party chief at *$64K per year extra *as party chief ( *6 months severance x 5.3K per month = $31.8K for just stepping down as leader to MP*P. 
Chicken feed actually...poor Tim..don't you just feel sorry for him...having to stand in line at the local food banks..tsk!.tsk!:cheerful: (Tim Hudak after collecting his severance)



> The Tory chief — who earns $180,886 as leader of the official Opposition, a $64,336 premium above the base $116,550 salary of an MPP — did not sound like he was in a hurry to leave.


more..
http://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...es_pushing_to_dump_tim_hudak_immediately.html

No doubt Wynne will get a few hundred thousand in severance as well.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

carverman said:


> Here we go...more taxes on the horizon..
> 
> http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/publication/budget-highlights-2014-en.pdf


Lots of big changes there. Aircraft fuel tax from 2.7 cents to 6.7 cents over 4 years. No more inflation adjusted income tax brackets. Ontario will have a lot of money to grow the bureaucracy. I've been a huge fan of the carbon tax in BC as it has reduced my personal income taxes to amongst the lowest in the country. Ontario is moving the wrong way.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

The actual investment in plant, equipment, technology is not made in isolation.

It is usually an opportunity for the manufacturer to review all costs and all incentives. Energy, taxes, plant, labour, availabily of skilled labour, transportation costs....the lot.

The company that I worked for had an operation in Ontario that successfully competed against other potential sites in Asia and the USA. We won big time on quality. But over the years, cost of doing business overshadowed the other advantages and the plant was forced to relocate outside of Canada to remain competitive.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

doctrine said:


> No more inflation adjusted income tax brackets.


 Is this true, BTW?


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I believe that inflation adjusted brackets have disappeared along with income averaging.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I think it's unclear from the document as to whether it's just the top brackets that won't be indexed, or all of them.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think a carbon tax, with the proceeds used to reduce corporate and personal income taxes, is a great idea. It's worked very well in BC.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> Lets see 2014 - 2009..thats about 5 years being party chief at *$64K per year extra *as party chief ( *6 months severance x 5.3K per month = $31.8K for just stepping down as leader to MP*P.
> Chicken feed actually...poor Tim..don't you just feel sorry for him...having to stand in line at the local food banks. (Tim Hudak after collecting his severance)


You are barking up the wrong tree.
It is not the politicians - but their civil service bureaucrats - that are the leeches.

What a regular MPP makes - even a party leader like Tim Hudak - is not worth the abuse and personal characters attacks that they get at the hands of the public and media.

But for a moment take a look at what the public service bureaucrats and paper-pushers make for literally zero risk and public exposure:

_*Number of Ontario government workers paid over $100,000 grows*_

_The release also reveals a substantial severance for Dalton McGuinty’s former chief of staff who, it was revealed this week, is under police investigation for allegedly orchestrating the destruction of documents in the former premier’s office. 

An even heftier payout – more than $240,000 – went to Chris Spence, the Toronto District School Board education director who resigned in January 2013 over a plagiarism scandal.

And, it turns out, Premier Kathleen Wynne’s chief of staff, Tom Teahan, not only made a lot more than she did, he even pulled in bigger bucks than U.S. President Barack Obama’s chief of staff._

It is classic misdirection that a handful of politicians get blamed for receiving the big bucks, whereas, the truth is that ho-hum bureaucrats and paper pushers are far more overpaid than politicians.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

HaroldCrump said:


> You are barking up the wrong tree.
> It is not the politicians - *but their civil service bureaucrats - that are the leeches.
> *
> What a regular MPP makes - even a party leader like Tim Hudak - is not worth the abuse and personal characters attacks that they get at the hands of the public and media.
> ...


 ... agreed but who oversees these overpaid bureaucrats? and can do something about their obscene pays? Don't they all fall from the same tree or feed in the same trough? :disgust: What are the politicians' job responsibilities other than to run for election to gain power, influence, etc. and suck-in taxpayers' monies? What leadership do they bring?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... agreed but who oversees these overpaid bureaucrats? and can do something about their obscene pays? Don't they all fall from the same tree or feed in the same trough? :disgust: What are the politicians' job responsibilities other than to run for election to gain power, influence, etc. and suck-in taxpayers' monies? What leadership do they bring?


Corruptiion is rampant on all fronts, not just the unions. Whether Wynne will be allowed to address this serious issue is another story. From what we hear (at least so far) is that she intends to address this issue over the tenure of her
majority gov't with the "new broom sweeps clean" intentions that every elected top gov't official pledges at the beginning. Of course, we all know what happens once everyone settles into the day to day routine of governing.

here is some insight into what may be happening at the beginning...



> On Tuesday, Ontario Power Generation immediately *fired three executives f*ollowing the release of the damning auditor-general report accusing the *utility of unnecessarily driving up electricity prices through rampant nepotism*, high labour costs and *one of the province’s most generous public-sector pension plans.*


http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/1...reases-cost-of-power-in-ontario-auditor-says/

It's a step in the right direction. I'm sure Hudak was on the right track with his election intentions...but he gave out too much information too fast....you have to be careful how you do this ..but it HAS to be done.
Corruption, squandering, nepotism, powerful union lobby, waste and gouging are now ingrained into our very fabric of government these days.



> Nepotism at work can mean increased opportunity at a job, *attaining the job or being paid more than other similarly situated people*.[46] Arguments are made both for and against employment granted due to a family connection, which is most common in small, family run businesses. On one hand, nepotism can provide stability and continuity. Critics cite studies that demonstrate decreased morale and commitment from non-related employees,[47] and a generally negative attitude towards superior positions filled through nepotism.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> Whether Wynne will be allowed to address this serious issue is another story.
> From what we hear (at least so far) is that she intends to address this issue over the tenure of her majority gov't


Expecting Wynne to "address" unions is like expecting Silvio Berlusconi to "address" corruption :biggrin:

Wynne is of the unions, and has been elected by the unions, for the unions.
Hudak was one 100% right when he said during the election campaign that _Ontario is being run by the public service unions_.

To paraphrase Adam Smith : _A Liberal administration under Wynne, so far as it is instituted for the security of the tax-payers, is in reality instituted for the defense of the public service unions against the tax-payers_.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> *Wynne is of the unions, and has been elected by the unions, for the unions*.
> Hudak was one 100% right when he said during the election campaign that _Ontario is being run by the public service unions_.


Good one, Harold. You took it right from Lincoln's Gettysburg address.. "and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth"

Except in the case of Ontario..... substitute " the unions" for " the people" ...and "Ontario" for "the earth".


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## CuriousReader (Apr 3, 2009)

While Hudak is quite insanely stupid with his campaign, and Howard is ... questionable ...

(in other words, both are _may be_ bad)

Why do majority of people think a completely proven (again and again) wasteful, scandalous and no-good Libs should govern with majority?
How much more billion dollars scandal does it take for people to at least try the _may be_ rather than voting for the _guaranteed_ cr*p


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

@CuriousReader - the "people" you refer to are no longer necessary for the Liberals to continue governing.
They are at a point where their favorite lobby groups command enough votes to keep getting them re-elected over & over again.
They have a majority govt. with something like 38% of the vote.

In other words, the rest of the voters are irrelevant.


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