# Labor shortage



## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

Anyone else in a hiring decision role that is frustrated with the lack of good candidates out there?

I understand all the reasons for the labor shortage we are experiencing; wave of baby boomers retiring or early retirement, lack of immigrants, etc.

What I don't understand is the poor quality of candidates that are seeking jobs. Are they simply being amplified due to the lack of overall candidates? Or is this the new wave of 'quality', employers are forced to accept?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe has to do with the pay scale and benefits ?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Partly that along with the "attitudes" of many employers, particularly those at the hiring-decision-makers level. 

I'm sure the "quality" just gets better with the "dime-by-the-dozens" remarks that I often hear from ex-bosses. LMAO.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Can’t find any pool lifeguards. COVID put a stop to most accreditation programs so there’s a large gap in qualified candidates. They lowered the eligible age to 15, but that doesn’t seem to have helped.

take care at pools and beaches this summer.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

In Aberta and BC hiring skilled trades people is the biggest challenge for my SIL's business.

Pay scale is not the issue. Skilled people are being paid well in this time of staffing shortages.

Do not know about the service industry jobs.

We are also experiencing a shortage of professional workers in the health care sector. Exacerbated by those leaving their profession for more lucrative employment opportunities or those exiting the Province. It is moving from just a shortage to an alarming/critical shortage in some parts of the Province.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

sags said:


> Maybe has to do with the pay scale and benefits ?


Not at all. 

That was maybe the case at the beginning but everyone has had to adjust. To be honest, I find I am overpaying certain candidates given their limited experience and mediocre attitudes. 

University degrees mean nothing anymore. It seems the new generation put no importance on work ethics.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Mortgage u/w said:


> Not at all.
> 
> That was maybe the case at the beginning but everyone has had to adjust. To be honest, I find I am overpaying certain candidates given their limited experience and mediocre attitudes.
> 
> University degrees mean nothing anymore. It seems the new generation put no importance on work ethics.


Well I have definitely seen the mediocre attitudes. Some folks just don't like to work and believe they should be given money just because they exist. 

What industry?


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Pretty hard to judge work ethics based on 30min conversation, however overall trend in society is certainly negative when it comes to intelligence, focus, and ethics. The short attention span and need for constant stimulation is not conductive to most work environments


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Pretty hard to judge work ethics based on 30min conversation, *however overall trend in society is certainly negative when it comes to intelligence, focus, and ethics.* *The short attention span and need for constant stimulation is not conductive to most work environments*


 ... for a change I would have to agree with this. But this starts with the company's leaders that are providing the "examples" first, especially the latter part/2nd sentence. That's known as the "need for 'innovation'" or the modern version thereof. LMAO.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

@afulldeck It seems I hear the same complaints regardless the industry. Retail/Food/Sservice industry seem to be affected the most. Its not much different trying to find skilled candidates in the Finance/Banking industry.

@damian13ster They say a hiring manager knows within the first 15 seconds if the candidate in front of them will be hired or not. I totally agree with this statement. Attitude, character, demeanor are all worth more than tenure which is often mistaken for experience.

@Beaver101 While I agree some leaders fail to keep their staff motivated, I am not convinced its the majority. Lets not forget, the new generation of candidates entering the workforce will be future leaders themselves.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

ian said:


> We are also experiencing a shortage of professional workers in the health care sector. Exacerbated by those leaving their profession for more lucrative employment opportunities or those exiting the Province. It is moving from just a shortage to an alarming/critical shortage in some parts of the Province.


Thanks to the UCP and Jason Kenney for destroying the AB healthcare system.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

From what I can tell, a big part of the labour shortage in technical sectors is directly attributable to people not doing their jobs. For some reason, companies just keep hiring more when they should be culling the dead wood.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

scorpion_ca said:


> Thanks to the UCP and Jason Kenney for destroying the AB healthcare system.


Alberta spends more per capita on health care than any other province in the country
The problem out here are the unions. And they are driving good nurses and doctors away. I know tens that decided they had enough with union bullshit in Alberta and decided to move to the States where they got welcomed with open hands


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I had meetings today and the labor shortage discussion came up as part of the informal chat. We all agreed that we are facing a huge shortage in the construction industry across most of the country now and for the next few years. The discussion was good as we focused on promoting the positive aspects of the skilled trades. We didn't feel that the quality was lacking as much as there was a just a large shortage in general. Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, employers are going to be competing for workers across all industries until unemployment numbers rise. The reality is when there are more jobs than job seekers one is going to see less quality unless you the employer is going above and beyond the market average. My experience in consulting with new entrants to the industry the past few years is that there is less focus on earnings than in years past. Of course monetary compensation is always appreciated this is a lower priority than it once was. I am not sure if this observation is just my own, regional, or industry specific. Perhaps, I was just greedy and would work as many hours as I could.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

londoncalling said:


> ...I am not sure if this observation is just my own, regional, or industry specific. Perhaps, I was just greedy and would work as many hours as I could.


Greedy, or simply hardworking and diligent?


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

There are lots of reasons for people not wanting to rgeturn to work. I'm retired and don't really want to give up any of my free time for more of the BS of the previous 30+ years. I could get a low level job but why would I settle for minimum wage or doing gig work? I'm part of the FIRE movement when I took retirement at 55. Then there are those who joined FIRE younger. We had options and working isn't necessarily one of them.

There are people who now are reconsidering their career choices since the pandemic started. In the beginning, there was a surge in nursing enrollments. Now, there are nurses considering leaving because of the lack of respect they get (covid-deniers protesting in front of hospitals, etc, unpaid sick days, minimum pay at private LTC facilities). But that's not limited to nurses. People are finding options and putting up with sh*t from employers may not be one of them. It has been awhile since we heard employers telling people they're lucky to be working or their jobs could be outsourced over-seas.

And then there are the young entry level workers who saw what their parents had gone through being restructured out of work even though they were considered to be their employers' most valuable assets. So they really don't want to enter into that kind of life. It's much different from the careers their grandparents had where a lifetime of hardwork translated into a secure retirement.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't think it's due to lack of available workers.

In my experience, the compensation is not enough. Not to say people aren't working, but people are hopping around. Nobody is loyal. There are many people "between jobs" as they look for something better.

This rotation causes people not to care as there are many options. Most (let me repeat before I get castrated) MOST* People are looking for good compensation where they can fk the dog on the daily. They are hopping around until they find a good fit because they know employers need people.

This has been my experience, at least, in Ontario.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Tostig said:


> I'm retired and don't really want to give up any of my free time for more of the BS of the previous 30+ years.


So many work environments are steel cage matches of attrition. It's heartbreaking to think about what it's doing to those who have to work in that. Anger is a terrible disability that spreads like a virus.

We had a guy who would open a meeting by explaining how stupid someone was. He would focus on a ton of different people, over the years. I recall saying, "Hey! He is a good guy and he's on our team." The response... "Yeah, and he's dumb as F*." My gawd. lol!


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> I don't think it's due to lack of available workers.
> 
> In my experience, the compensation is not enough. Not to say people aren't working, but people are hopping around. Nobody is loyal. There are many people "between jobs" as they look for something better.
> 
> ...


I think employer and employee loyalty no longer exists. Both parties understand that the probability that 5, 10 or 15 years from now it is unlikely they will still be part of each others lives. This is a general statement and there are great employers out there. They will attract the cream of the crop as a result. In the current climate, workers(both good and bad) are definitely shopping around. One area that I think employers should focus more attention is spending more time, money and effort on retention. I know of several employers in my field that will pay more to new hires to attract supply. Meanwhile an equivalent employee is given meagre increases and makes less than the new hire. In these instances it's easy to see why they have a revolving door of employees.


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

Labor shortage is nothing but a propaganda. North American company wants cheap slave when the management is making a ton of money for themselves.

*In 2020, top CEOs earned 351 times more than the typical worker*









In 2020, top CEOs earned 351 times more than the typical worker


Since 1978, CEO compensation has grown 1,322%, but typical worker compensation has risen 18%.




www.cnbc.com


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

KaeJS said:


> I don't think it's due to lack of available workers.
> 
> In my experience, the compensation is not enough. Not to say people aren't working, but people are hopping around. Nobody is loyal. There are many people "between jobs" as they look for something better.


I agree. The direction companies have gone in the last 30 years teaches people there is no point (no reward) for being loyal.

When there's a downturn, they immediately lay off people. The benefits keep shrinking and it's incredibly hard to get a pay raise or salary boost. Every company I work for has always dragged their feet, refusing to raise wages. I checked with coworkers who work at my ex employer, asked if there is any inflation-linked pay increases and they said no... the company is still using a 2% annual increase on wages.

Why do you think people are quitting? Nobody's going to sit there with stagnant wages. *We can work 1 or 2 years and then quit, change jobs and boost our pay. That's what the corporate world has taught us to do*, because that's the only way you can keep your salary up with inflation.

Nobody I know has any kind of work pension either, so there's no long-term retention mechanism.

Companies low-ball us on wages... don't offer pensions... and lay us off in a heartbeat without a second thought.

What do you think is going to happen? I will never have any loyalty to a company, because I know I'm disposable and they will fire me in a heartbeat.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

londoncalling said:


> I think employer and employee loyalty no longer exists.


Many years ago, I worked for a large corp that started having declining revenues. They weren't on the brink of collapse or anything, in fact they were doing quite well.

To save costs, they opened parallel offices in Malaysia and China and started getting all of us (in Canada & US) to train the other people. They actually flew in a Chinese guy and made him my "buddy" for a couple weeks, so I could train him. As the training progressed, the management started coming up with a fabricated paper trail to justify layoffs, and one by one started firing EVERYONE in our Ontario office.

That same year the CEO collected near record total compensation in cash + stock. The company was very pleased with expense reduction (slashing labour), really just a gambit by the executive class to "game" the quarterly results. I think the CEO's pay was something like 200x my salary (and I'm an engineer with several degrees!).

This has been the story for the last 30 to 40 years. Extreme corporate greed, a class of MBAs and executives treating companies as get-rich schemes, a total unwillingness to pay fair wages, reliance on super cheap labour, and management treating employees as disposable.

That's why you don't have employee loyalty and that's why none of us care about the "labour shortages". If companies wanted solid domestic labour, it's very obvious how they could have had that.

@scorpion_ca is absolutely correct that this is just propaganda, as companies really just want super cheap labour.


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

In the fight between labour and capital, labour has indeed been absolutely wrecked in recent decades (at least in Canada and the US). But even a worm will turn. The clearing price for quality labour seems to have risen significantly. But don't celebrate too early, comrades. Especially white collar types with newfound work life balance and flexibility to work remotely. Somewhere in India or Vietnam or Nigeria or elsewhere is an enterprising young person leveling up, ready to grind, and you can be sure that profit seeking capital is already out looking for ways to rub you out and find that person now that geographic distance has been made irrelevant by technology, to say nothing of the deflationary forces of AI. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, middle managers of all kinds -- except for the absolute best of the best in their field, everyone is on the clock. Sadly, that is a big part of why it is important to own equity. Noone can just work. Everyone needs a side hustle as a capital allocator.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Many years ago, I worked for a large corp that started having declining revenues. They weren't on the brink of collapse or anything, in fact they were doing quite well.
> 
> To save costs, they opened parallel offices in Malaysia and China and started getting all of us (in Canada & US) to train the other people. They actually flew in a Chinese guy and made him my "buddy" for a couple weeks, so I could train him. As the training progressed, the management started coming up with a fabricated paper trail to justify layoffs, and one by one started firing EVERYONE in our Ontario office.
> 
> ...


 ... and who's to blame? Start from the top and work your way down with the top (tip and its cronies) having the best of excuse of them all: the need to answer to 'shareholders' with those multi-million dollar salaries. The bottom soldiers get the best treatment - a discard once used.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Mortgage u/w said:


> @afulldeck It seems I hear the same complaints regardless the industry. Retail/Food/Sservice industry seem to be affected the most. Its not much different trying to find skilled candidates in the Finance/Banking industry.
> 
> @damian13ster They say a hiring manager knows within the first 15 seconds if the candidate in front of them will be hired or not. I totally agree with this statement. Attitude, character, demeanor are all worth more than tenure which is often mistaken for experience.
> 
> @Beaver101 While I agree some leaders fail to keep their staff motivated, I am not convinced its the majority. Lets not forget, the new generation of candidates entering the workforce will be future leaders themselves.


 ... of course, it's not the majority as it isn't the "job" of the "leaders = decision-makers" to keep their staff motivated in the first place. How about not demoralizing their staff in the first place? Why do you think the "quality" of the newer gen workers are so poor these days ... let alone being considered as future leaders themselves. I wouldn't be surprised human workers will be answering to a AI boss/bot in the near future. LMAO.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> From what I can tell, a big part of the labour shortage in* technical sectors* is directly attributable to people not doing their jobs. For some reason, companies just keep hiring more when they should be culling the dead wood.


 ... technical sectors such as? IT in North America or in India? I don't suppose it's in manufacturing? And even then, what kind? Automotive? Metal fabrication? ???


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> So many work environments are steel cage matches of attrition. It's heartbreaking to think about what it's doing to those who have to work in that. Anger is a terrible disability that spreads like a virus.
> 
> *We had a guy who would open a meeting by explaining how stupid someone was. He would focus on a ton of different people, over the years. * I recall saying, "Hey! He is a good guy and he's on our team." *The response... "Yeah, and he's dumb as F**." My gawd. lol!


 ... and yet who allowed/kept this guy on with this kind of language and behaviour? Your boss, ain't it? Which indicates the "type of management" there and "quality" of staffing. Maybe it's acceptable in that kind of sector or "work" environment ... and at the time.

Anyhow, I'm sure if he said so much as an "F" the first day on the job say in an office/bank, he'll be shown the door before he can return to his desk to pack.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Remember when there was a big kerfluffle about the banks bringing in temporary foreign workers and requiring the staff to train them before they got laid off.

I support bringing in temporary foreign workers to fill empty jobs, but not to replace people who are already working in jobs.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> Remember when there was a big kerfluffle about the banks bringing in temporary foreign workers and requiring the staff to train them before they got laid off.
> 
> I support bringing in temporary foreign workers to fill empty jobs, but not to replace people who are already working in those jobs.


 ... not surprised it's still happening these days ... only it's behind the scenes instead of making it to the front page news.

See one member's (londoncalling?) in this thread mentioning this of which for one moment, do not disbelieve.

Worst are IT jobs where Canadian workers are enticed (with some BS) to first train offshore workers who would remain as offshore workers in the name of saving some in-country jobs (aka in "reality" full-filling some fat *** executives' bonuses). That's why you get such poor customer-service from the call-centers ... replying from another country.


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## Fisherman30 (Dec 5, 2018)

There are a lot of industries that will be in trouble due to labour shortages. Aviation for example will be interesting. Commercial pilot training basically ground to a halt over the last couple of years (meaning for 2 full years, the number of newly licensed pilots was a fraction of what would be normal), and companies that operate smaller planes (where airline pilots get their experience before flying bigger planes) did basically no hiring, as thousands of airline pilots were laid off during covid, and took jobs flying smaller planes. Now, airlines are just about back to pre-covid levels of flying, and I don't know where all the pilots are going to come from to staff the flights. When covid hit, a lot of older pilots close to retirement chose to retire early, and some younger pilots just quit and took up other careers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our son is experienced and qualified in several skilled trades, but it was no thanks to the school system which told him he "wouldn't amount to anything if he didn't go to university".

In our small city, none of the high schools even had "shop" or "home economics" programs. No wonder so many people today can't cut a piece of lumber or cook a meal.

Air pilots....yea, that is a good example of how important training and experience is. You can't just hire people to fly an airplane.

Our son is certified as a heavy equipment operator. A lot of his schooling and training involved maintaining the equipment. There are a lot of grease points on an excavator.

Lots of kids would look at an excavator and think it would be cool to operate one, but they lose interest when they have to crawl around doing the necessary maintenance.

Auto mechanics......I see shops advertising for them. Service advisors.....do young people know about vehicle systems today ?

Bottom line to me.......we need to look at Germany's education system, where they start streaming kids towards "career oriented" education early in the education system.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

sags said:


> In our small city, none of the high schools even had "shop" or "home economics" programs. No wonder so many people today can't cut a piece of lumber or cook a meal.


That's not true at all. I grew up in your small city. 

Have a look at this list of programs available and search for "Thames Valley". 

Construction specialist programs are available at Lucas, Saunders, and Laurier.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> That's not true at all. I grew up in your small city.
> 
> Have a look at this list of programs available and search for "Thames Valley".
> 
> Construction specialist programs are available at Lucas, Saunders, and Laurier.


You'll find sags makes a LOT of unsubstantiated and outright false claims. When they get too ridiculous for my patience I block them for a bit.

The 6th largest city in Ontario and 15th largest in Canada, yet he calls it "small"


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Mortgage u/w said:


> ... Anyone else in a hiring decision role that is frustrated with the lack of good candidates out there?


If you group the applicants into a group of twenty, how many would you say are:
a) stellar
b) good
c) competent
d) a disaster?




Mortgage u/w said:


> ... What I don't understand is the poor quality of candidates that are seeking job ...


YMMV ... my company was happy to hire me in the early 2000's as they had gone through something around five rounds of shortlisted applicants when I applied. I'd been working for three years as a consultant so they already knew my personality, skills and work ethic. IIRC, most that were applying had misrepresented their skills. For the few will the skills needed, they preferred little to now interaction with people despite the ad and interviews highlighting it was a team job that interacted with a wide range of employees.


Cheers


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Fisherman30 said:


> There are a lot of industries that will be in trouble due to labour shortages. Aviation for example will be interesting. Commercial pilot training basically ground to a halt over the last couple of years (meaning for 2 full years, the number of newly licensed pilots was a fraction of what would be normal), and companies that operate smaller planes (where airline pilots get their experience before flying bigger planes) did basically no hiring, as thousands of airline pilots were laid off during covid, and took jobs flying smaller planes. Now, airlines are just about back to pre-covid levels of flying, and I don't know where all the pilots are going to come from to staff the flights. When covid hit, a lot of older pilots close to retirement chose to retire early, and some younger pilots just quit and took up other careers.


@Fisherman30 your sector was decimated during the pandemic but I am glad that it is rebounding as expected. Many industries are scrambling to find the workers that moved on during the pandemic but this a a great example. I wonder if there was an uptick in retirements across all workplaces throughout the country which is helping to contribute to the labour shortage. A stable retirement rate is healthy as it allows for new workers to find employment. If there are too few it creates a lot of difficulty for those trying to get a start or move up in their field. I wasn't in working at the time but I have heard from older Gen Xers that said this was one of the reason they had faced barriers to advancement in their career as there were so many people just slightly older than them in senior positions.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Spudd said:


> That's not true at all. I grew up in your small city.
> 
> Have a look at this list of programs available and search for "Thames Valley".
> 
> Construction specialist programs are available at Lucas, Saunders, and Laurier.


That's great, but he grew up in Woodstock, Ontario (population 30,000 at the time) so it wasn't available at the time.

He also attended high school during the PC Harris government debacle on education, which left behind a well documented shameful legacy for a lot of kids.

We moved from London to Woodstock when I transferred for work, and couldn't move back to London fast enough after we retired.


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## Juggernaut92 (Aug 9, 2020)

Is the Canadian government stimulating program like CERB still active for individuals?

Why go to work if you can get paid by the government and take a vacation...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The original program was replaced with a temporary program that provides short term benefit for people who are off work due to covid.

The employer pays full wages for the first 3 days and is reimbursed by the government. After that, the benefit pays $300 a week until the person returns to work.

It isn't a benefit that provides disincentives to working. At $300 a week, anyone working would be losing money on that program.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

College Ave SS in Woodstock offers a Construction program. Now I'm just being a pain.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

wayward__son said:


> In the fight between labour and capital, labour has indeed been absolutely wrecked in recent decades (at least in Canada and the US). But even a worm will turn. The clearing price for quality labour seems to have risen significantly. But don't celebrate too early, comrades. Especially white collar types with newfound work life balance and flexibility to work remotely. Somewhere in India or Vietnam or Nigeria or elsewhere is an enterprising young person leveling up, ready to grind, and you can be sure that profit seeking capital is already out looking for ways to rub you out and find that person now that geographic distance has been made irrelevant by technology, to say nothing of the deflationary forces of AI. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, middle managers of all kinds -- except for the absolute best of the best in their field, everyone is on the clock. Sadly, that is a big part of why it is important to own equity. Noone can just work. Everyone needs a side hustle as a capital allocator.


If ever there were a post worth quoting, this is it.

There is a countdown on wealth accumulation that, while unknown, can't be all that far from T0.

Carry on, wayward__son.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Is that "TO" to be meant Toronto aka Hogtown aka CTU (Center of the Universe)? If so, hey, it got all the goods, bads, and uglies.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

james4beach said:


> I agree. The direction companies have gone in the last 30 years teaches people there is no point (no reward) for being loyal.
> 
> When there's a downturn, they immediately lay off people. The benefits keep shrinking and it's incredibly hard to get a pay raise or salary boost. Every company I work for has always dragged their feet, refusing to raise wages. I checked with coworkers who work at my ex employer, asked if there is any inflation-linked pay increases and they said no... the company is still using a 2% annual increase on wages.
> 
> ...


James...I had a DB pension but that is not what kept me with my employer. New employees had a DC plan.

A DC pension plan is far better than a DB plan for many of today's employees who are expected to have a 3-7 year tenure with an employer and have 5 or more employers over their working careers. Not for the declining number of career employees though.

There are lots of incentive plans out there to keep good employees. Many companies have them. In my case it was significant bonuses for overachievement, employee stock options that have multi year vesting provisions,, and restricted stock units (RSU's).

Bonuses for overachievement increased my DB entitlement by 30 percent. Stock options allowed me to become financially independent and retire at 58/59. RSU's not so much. Not to mention excellent benefits....some of which I have in retirement.

Employers have a choice when it comes to total employee rewards and degree to which those rewards are distributed to employees. Employees also have a choice. They can take maximum advantage of those total rewards or they can change employers, change careers, relocate...whatever.

It is a two way street. Employees are responsible for their own career development. Those that sit back, are afraid to leave their home towns, are not life long learners, don't recognize opportunity, or are reluctant to accept change, challenges, and increased responsibility may experience some disappointments during their working lives.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> There are lots of incentive plans out there to keep good employees. Many companies have them. . . . Bonuses for overachievement increased my DB entitlement by 30 percent.


Sounds like your company had some good incentives, but I don't think that's the norm. At least not what I've heard among my peers (engineers and scientists).


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

James I believe that you would be very surprised to see some employer stats regarding the percentage of DC monies allocated to employees that go unused Despite the usual HR seminars outlining why participation is a no brainer.

Or the percentage of employees who do not bother to join a company DC program. I found it surprising when I saw the numbers-from my employer's perspective and from the DC investment firm perspective.

Or the percentage of employees who do not join the company stock purchase plan that pays out every six months.

I worked with many engineers. In sales, in consulting, in management.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Every time I place an AD for work. I get 50+ resumes with 3-4 days. Not seeing a labour shortage. Some places just need to pay more $$$. . .


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Large corporations stopped reading resumes, many years ago. They use an application that emulates a fresh pile of dog droppings.

Managers at the last place I worked would complain about having zero qualified candidates when I knew of good people people with certifications who applied. The last time this happened, I called one of the people who mentioned they applied and asked if his industry certs were up to date. He told me they were so I walked his resume to the managers office with a mention that I worked with this man for 15 years and knew him to be a good man. Six weeks later, that man was working with me and the manager told me how grateful he was for the reference.

At my last place, a very large corporation, they seemed to trigger on resumes with references from fellow employees. I was asked about someone who used me as a reference (without asking) and the person wasn't qualified.

The employment situation is so gummed up with politics it is ridiculous.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

My corp is working on gender equity. 
For the last six years when we sent positions over to HR to fill, all the candidates we saw were ladies.
Not sayin' they were not competent.
But for junior engineers you would think there would be one guy candidate in 6 years.
The hired ladies, well the last two we hired lasted between two and three years.
We trained them up, then they went to work on the government side, who are most of our clients


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

That sort of "progressive" policy backfires when it is taken to such an extreme. OTOH, focusing on gender equity in numbers isn't worth a dog dropping if the pay scales are not also equitable. They will go to gov't civil service for pay equity.

The company I worked for had many female specialists/supervisors in our technical and business functions, certainly not 50%, but relatively proportional to those seeking employment. We had no quotas. They stayed long term probably due to fair and equitable employment practices, i.e. opportunities and pay equity. It really does not have to be complicated.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Large corporations stopped reading resumes, many years ago. They use an application that emulates a fresh pile of dog droppings.
> 
> Managers at the last place I worked would complain about having zero qualified candidates when I knew of good people people with certifications who applied. The last time this happened, I called one of the people who mentioned they applied and asked if his industry certs were up to date. He told me they were so I walked his resume to the managers office with a mention that I worked with this man for 15 years and knew him to be a good man. Six weeks later, that man was working with me and the manager told me how grateful he was for the reference.
> 
> ...


I know many companies' algorithms screen out very suitable candidates that would have been given an interview when resumes were read by HR. As someone who has done my fair share of hiring I understand that there can be a ton of applications from people that don't have any of the requirements of the job. Regardless, the system is flawed. I receive job postings from several sites and am aware of numerous positions that are going unfilled. Not sure if it is that compensation doesn't align with expecations. However, if you have a job posted for a couple of months as an employer that tells me you are either not worth working for or you're not paying market rate.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> That sort of "progressive" policy backfires when it is taken to such an extreme. OTOH, focusing on gender equity in numbers isn't worth a dog dropping if the pay scales are not also equitable. They will go to gov't civil service for pay equity.
> 
> The company I worked for had many female specialists/supervisors in our technical and business functions, certainly not 50%, but relatively proportional to those seeking employment. We had no quotas. They stayed long term probably due to fair and equitable employment practices, i.e. opportunities and pay equity. It really does not have to be complicated.


Gender and race quotas are official government policy now.
Racial quotes are literally systematic racism, and Trudeau did it.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ And one wonders why given this kind of so-called "equalities (LMAO)" that exist and likely continue like forever.

‘The higher I rose, the worse it got’: Alberta’s sole female heart surgeon alleges discrimination in complaint against health agency

The above article is behind a paywall but here's a snippet from the title:

*



‘The higher I rose, the worse it got’: Sole female heart surgeon alleges discrimination in complaint against Alberta agency: Dr. Teresa Kieser alleges that she has been made to battle institutional barriers, harassment, a general lack of respect and many baseless complaints about her professional abilities – all because she is a woman

Click to expand...

*


> Doolittle, Robyn. Toronto: The Globe and Mail. May 9, 2022.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I have no doubt that it is possible to point to organizations, private, public, or non profit, that have less than optimal hiring practices and/or poor employee morale.

It always has been and always will be. I believe there are still lots of fine employers out their who care about their teams, want the see them grow and enhance their contribution. My experience is that many firms are increasing management span of control while at the same time placing a greater emphasis on the contributions of individual contributors.

I changed employers five times and career direction several times. Spent my last 25 years with a great employer. But, I had to take the initiative to change. It involved some risk, stretching myself, learning new skills, relocations, applying existing skills in different ways, and of course some additional applied education.

I believe that this is still the trend. It takes initiative and willingness to change. Complaining about an employer is fine but there are things that an employee can do. Change employers as I have done in the past-as have many others. Change career paths within the same employer, as I and many others have done.

It is easy to point fingers and lay blame. In my experience doing that only makes you feel worse about your situation. Better to get your skates on and initiate personal change. Standing still with the poor me routine or a constant focus on the negative aspects of an employment environment, yours or the firm that employs you, without any personal initiative for change will do less than enhance your outlook or your prospects.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ For the profession in post #51 it is alot easier SAID with the "take the initiative to make the change yourself".

And as for those in the dime-by-the-dozen professions, there's this fallacy of the "the grass is greener on the other side only to find the same type of pile dung, only it's a different time or place." Sorry for the negativity here but that's part of the truth/reality in alot of working environments. The toxicity is so thick you've can cut it with a sawblade. I have heard (if not seen it for myself) with colleagues of mines, "stucked" in that mode.

I, myself, however have made the change/move as soon as I got the whiff the new management (due to company buy-out/management turnover) is not going to work with you or said in-their-terms all of a sudden "you aren't a good fit (whatever the hell that suppose to mean now)" despite you have been there for years with yearly raises (aka quite good if not stratespherical (sic) performance.)

I'm sure there're excellent "management (in terms of being fair, open minded, unbiased, if not incompetent)" these days. Just that they're a "rarity" - or like the dinos that have gone extinct.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just published. The article is behind a paywall but title is revealing

RBC to hike pay 3% for lower-paid employees as fight for talent intensifies

WOW, the generosity. Paid for by you and me the customers, right after the announced clock-work fees schedule change (aka increase) effective August 1, 2022.

Watch, comes January 1, 2023 when the recession hits, a "hiring-freeze, if not a streamlining-strategy" is announced.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

15,000 carpenters walk off job across GTA, joining thousands of other workers already on strike | CP24.com 

This could have easily been posted in the RE topics, or political for that matter. Regardless when cost of living far outpaces wage gains unionization becomes popular.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

londoncalling said:


> 15,000 carpenters walk off job across GTA, joining thousands of other workers already on strike | CP24.com
> 
> This could have easily been posted in the RE topics, or political for that matter. Regardless when cost of living far outpaces wage gains unionization becomes popular.


Yes and it seems that society will have to rely on unions to fight for good wage increases.

Unions have fought for countless important rights in the past and all of us have benefited from them. They do the hard work, then we forget what they gain and pretend things naturally came to be like this.

I would love to see far more unionization, especially for workers in all these silicon valley "apps" like delivery services, Uber etc which basically just exploit workers. These guys all need unions ASAP.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Nothing wrong with unions.
Mandatory unions and professional organizations though are pure evil. Let individual workers in any industry, any workplace, decide if they want to create, or join union, or if they want to deal with employer as individuals


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yes and it seems that society will have to rely on unions to fight for good wage increases.
> 
> Unions have fought for countless important rights in the past and all of us have benefited from them. They do the hard work, then we forget what they gain and pretend things naturally came to be like this.
> 
> I would love to see far more unionization, especially for workers in all these silicon valley "apps" like delivery services, Uber etc which basically just exploit workers. These guys all need unions ASAP.


I'm all for unions, as long as freedom of association is respected, and they don't abuse their monopolistic power.

Unions as they currently are under Canadian law typically don't respect freedom of association, and they abuse their monopoly position.

"They do the hard work, then we forget what they gain and pretend things naturally came to be like this." << which is the basic premise of Conservativism & Classical Liberalism


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Unions are highly democratic institutions and reflect the wishes of their members.

It was the Unifor union that started the investigation into kickbacks given to their leader Jerry Dias.

If the members go on strike.......a majority of them voted to do so.

If people don't want to join a union at an employer, I don't oppose that.

But, they should not be able to demand the union represent them in contract negotiations or disputes with the company.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Unions are highly democratic institutions and reflect the wishes of their members.


No.
They don't even support secret ballot for their formation.
They are undemocratic to the core



> If people don't want to join a union at an employer, I don't oppose that.


But the unions do.
There is a big push to make laws prohibiting the hiring of non union workers.



> But, they should not be able to demand the union represent them in contract negotiations or disputes with the company.


Yeah, sounds great, except the union will simply use their monopoly power to stop the employer.

The problem with unions is that they're corrosive and destructive to the organizations that employ them.
That's why in Canada pretty much the only unions left are government unions, because they bankrupted everyone else.

Note there is a different attitude in Europe where the unions understand that healthy employers are good for them, that's not the case here.

You seem to be completely unaware of what a union environment, like the CAW or CUPE is actually like.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Mortgage u/w said:


> What I don't understand is the poor quality of candidates that are seeking jobs. Are they simply being amplified due to the lack of overall candidates? Or is this the new wave of 'quality', employers are forced to accept?


Hire someone (from Afghanistan or Syria), train them on the job, and deduct cost of training from their wage.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

sags said:


> That's great, but he grew up in Woodstock, Ontario (population 30,000 at the time) so it wasn't available at the time.
> 
> He also attended high school during the PC Harris government debacle on education, which left behind a well documented shameful legacy for a lot of kids ...


Odd ... Beamsville ON was about 9K then and from what I hear - just like when I was there, shop and home economics were offered. Electronics being a small class of eight of us, taught by the drafting teacher.

It seems less of a Mike Harris issue and more of a local school board issue. Or maybe a lack of teachers who could teach the subjects?


FWIW, I can recall a lot of my fellow students refusing to take home economics when offered the chance. 


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> Large corporations stopped reading resumes, many years ago. They use an application that emulates a fresh pile of dog droppings ...


Don't know about large corps but the medium sized ones I have worked for did stress testing in the interview (i.e. the interview pretended to a pissed off client while conducting the interview) or ran technical tests as one part of the interview process.

They still used resumes (and still do) but with so many claiming experience they don't have, a recommend from an employee puts that person to the top of the list. It's been around twenty years that should the recommended candidate pass probation, the recommending employee is paid a cash bonus. The more the company has had problems hiring the larger the cash bonus.


Cheers


*PS*
I'd have to check but it's at least $20K I have pocketed by knowing suitable candidates.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

ian said:


> James I believe that you would be very surprised to see some employer stats regarding the percentage of DC monies allocated to employees that go unused Despite the usual HR seminars outlining why participation is a no brainer ...


For Canada, I have seen articles refer to half. The ones I am finding lump the employers that don't match optional contributions ... though my experience says the non-matching will be a low number.

Another article had a Canadian presenter commenting that a free lunch or contests boosts attending to the "much better" rate of 10% to 15% of eligible employees. 


For the US, there's an income factor as under $40K income is the higher non-participation at over 40%. Surprisingly, the over $100K crowd is over 10%. Being older and closer to retirement means employees pay closer attention, doubling the participation rates (at the cost of lost decades of matching/growth). 


Cheers


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> Odd ... Beamsville ON was about 9K then and from what I hear - just like when I was there, shop and home economics were offered. Electronics being a small class of eight of us, taught by the drafting teacher.
> 
> It seems less of a Mike Harris issue and more of a local school board issue. Or maybe a lack of teachers who could teach the subjects?
> 
> ...


 ... who were these "fellow" students of yours - guys or gals? And who was teaching that subject - a guy or a gal? I don't think the majority of guys particularly the macho ones would want to take home economics - where cooking and sewing were part of the course ... lol.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> For Canada, I have seen articles refer to half. The ones I am finding lump the employers that don't match optional contributions ... though my experience says the non-matching will be a low number.
> 
> *Another article had a Canadian presenter commenting that a free lunch or contests boosts attending to the "much better" rate of 10% to 15% of eligible employees. *
> 
> ...


 ... still the same level of participation in 2022? or was that a decade ago?

Let me put it this way - if the employees don't even know what benefits (goodies like a drug or dental plan) the company offer, then I don't think these employees care about a pension contribution plan. For one, it's less take-home pay and every dollar counts with the take-home pay ... for gas, rent (or mortgage), food, clothing, and the kids' RESPs (if any). "Retirement" is a concept (happening) far from now.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

One of the reasons for the "labour shortage" is unsafe working conditions during the pandemic.

I've been catching up with a few friends. Many are being forced back to the office. Sometimes it's 5 days in the office, sometimes only 3 days + 2 at home, but that's still way too much exposure for my taste.

You won't catch me hanging out in an office. It's not worth the health risk, and Public Health is refusing to enforce measures that make indoors safer.

I'm also hearing about bosses pushing back on people who say they have symptoms and want to stay at home. Symptomatic people are being pressured to come into the office despite symptoms. Nothing was learned through the pandemic.

I have an idea. How about any symptomatic worker forced to come into the office against their wishes spends 1 hour in a room with their boss.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... who were these "fellow" students of yours - guys or gals? And who was teaching that subject - a guy or a gal?
> 
> I don't think the majority of guys particularly the macho ones would want to take home economics - where cooking and sewing were part of the course ... lol.


Interesting side bars ... but AFAICT has no bearing on what shop/home economics being offered in what sized communities.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... still the same level of participation in 2022? or was that a decade ago?


Last year.




Beaver101 said:


> ... Let me put it this way - if the employees don't even know what benefits (goodies like a drug or dental plan) the company offer, then I don't think these employees care about a pension contribution plan.


The majority of my co-workers knew the goodies well. They outright said some of the treatments they were getting was solely to use up the allowance. 




Beaver101 said:


> ... "Retirement" is a concept (happening) far from now.


Which is to their detriment ... just like the dad's co-workers from seventy years ago who observed coming into work for extra shifts in their "retirement" to make ends meet. They were his incentive to make retirement saving a working life thing instead of a last minute thing.

It was also the attitude of my university house mate who preferred spending his excess co-op term dollars on an expensive stereo as why worry about what he had the rest of his life to save for?


Cheers


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> Interesting side bars ... but AFAICT has no bearing on what shop/home economics being offered in what sized communities.
> 
> Cheers


 ... let me put it this way when home economics was offered to me (grade 7, ya I had that), all my fellow students were "females" and yet my homeroom class was made up of 70/30 males/females. I'm not sure what the boys took in lieu of home economics - history, geography? I have to ask one of my siblings brothers.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Eclectic21 said:


> Last year.


 ... wow, interesting or maybe it's sign of the times.



> The majority of my co-workers knew the goodies well. They outright said some of the treatments they were getting was solely to use up the allowance.


 ... not with some of the employees that I worked with.

When HR held a company's "benefits" session along with the introduction of the DC plan - some "upper-level" employees were scratching their heads with the drug plan we had. And I'm scratching my head why are they asking these (basic) questions when they already have been with the company for at least 5 years if not more. Beats me so I guessed this is more to educate HR than anything else ... LMAO.



> Which is to their detriment ... just like the dad's co-workers from seventy years ago who observed coming into work for extra shifts in their "retirement" to make ends meet. They were his incentive to make retirement saving a working life thing instead of a last minute thing.


 ... that's why I suggested to ian in another thread this simple advice "the minute anyone who starts in the workforce and is offered a pension plan he/she should consider their "retirement" (plan)".



> It was also the attitude of my university house mate who preferred spending his excess co-op term dollars on an expensive stereo as why worry about what he had the rest of his life to save for?
> 
> Cheers


 ... which is not untrue. The youngster(s) have decades off from retirement. Besides, you don't want to tell someone who's just starting their career - hey you better start "saving" for retirement. Life has just started for him/her.

As mentioned to ian, there're other life competing priorities, depending at what stage you're.

Right after school, there're student loans to pay off. Then employment (which isn't instant). Then there's dating and paying rent. Then the engagement ring/wedding costs next ... housing, mortgage, kids, etc... you get the drift.

And then there're the fundamental of your "upbringing" - what were instilled on you by your parents/when you were growing up. If you see your parents struggling financially and you had the least amount of toys (or none)- better move your own *** and make that dough.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

james4beach said:


> One of the reasons for the "labour shortage" is unsafe working conditions during the pandemic.
> 
> I've been catching up with a few friends. Many are being forced back to the office. Sometimes it's 5 days in the office, sometimes only 3 days + 2 at home, but that's still way too much exposure for my taste.
> 
> ...


 ... wouldn't surprise me the least bit. And you'll get a push-back - but but but ... you can afford to and these folks can't. They "need" the job(s).



> I have an idea. How about any symptomatic worker forced to come into the office against their wishes spends 1 hour in a room with their boss.


 ... or maybe it's the other way around. Just look at andrewf. He caught it from his overzealous boss.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

james4beach said:


> One of the reasons for the "labour shortage" is unsafe working conditions during the pandemic.
> 
> I've been catching up with a few friends. Many are being forced back to the office. Sometimes it's 5 days in the office, sometimes only 3 days + 2 at home, but that's still way too much exposure for my taste.
> 
> ...


🙄🙄🙄


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

The shortage of unskilled labour will be filled eventually. Much easier for wages and job seekers to reach an equilibrium.

The real issue in Canada is the dire shortage of skilled labour in certain sectors of our economy. It is holding back growth.

Our economy has changed and will continue to change At one time there was a large group of workers who fell between unskilled and highly skilled. These were good jobs. Many unionized.

Workplace transformation has altered this, and is changing those ratios. We are seeing that middle decline considerably due to technology, automation etc. Some of those jobs are moving down to the lower paid service sector. Some or them are moving up to the skilled labour sector.

The result is pretty clear for young people coming out of high school and for people already in the workforce. Acquire a skill, a trade, a profession. Embark on a career of lifetime learning to continually refresh your skills and enhance your profile to respective employers and contractors.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... let me put it this way when home economics was offered to me (grade 7, ya I had that), all my fellow students were "females" and yet my homeroom class was made up of 70/30 males/females. I'm not sure what the boys took in lieu of home economics - history, geography? I have to ask one of my siblings brothers.


Memories of grades 7 and 8 ... that means we have to add Grimsby, ON (pop of 19K) to the list offering shop. I know this because part of the French Immersion program I participated was in Grimsby (i.e. the closest school) and was a shop class.

Interestingly, while it was boys to shop and girls to home economics - part of the curriculum was to switch for two weeks. Me being in shop meant two weeks of the class was to go to the home economics classroom to hear what ground was covered in a full home economics course then pick a project from some part of the range of topics.

Interesting you had a choice as high school was the earliest I could choose subjects. 


Cheers


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

ian said:


> The real issue in Canada is the dire shortage of skilled labour in certain sectors of our economy. It is holding back growth.


Which Sectors and what skills? Does Canada even know? Does your province know? Only asking because whenever my nephews ask I don't see a dire shortage...


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

I am hoping this will all be over once the immigration gates re-open.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are huge shortages of skilled labor in the construction industry. The average age of workers continues to creep up every year.

Our son has competence in several trades, all gained after he left high school.

The education and training is there. The jobs are there. The unions will hire and train people.

The problems are that young adults don't want to do that kind of work, and there is no support when people can't do it anymore due to age or injury.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I will add from our personal experience, that parents and guidance counsellors are aware of the problems of aging and injury in the construction industry and steer the kids into other employment directions.

Our son severely hurt his back on the job. He went on WSIB and they sent him to dozens of doctor assessments and treatments.

They required that he take further education, so he went back to school to get certified as a heavy equipment operator. WSIB paid the $28,000 tuition.

After 2 years, the WSIB gives a final medical assessment, and they deemed him permanently injured, gave him $12,000 and said he could get a minimum wage job.......have a nice life !

The pain subsided enough for him to go back to work, but the injury remained. He re-injured his back and is now waiting to see a back surgeon.

This time he went to work for a unionized company.

The WSIB had previously sent him to a surgeon who refused to operate saying it was too dangerous.

Our son is hoping the new advanced micro surgery procedures allows surgery to fix his back now, but he waits to get an appointment.

In the meantime......thank goodness for the LIUNA union and his unionized employer. They have been outstanding and supportive.

They pay his benefits, gave him $500 a week sick pay for 6 months and are putting him on $1,000 a month long term disability until he gets his back fixed.

This is real life and it is an issue for young adults considering the trades, where there are high rates of injury.

It is a lot easier, and likely a better long term employment choice to work in an office setting as a career.

Understanding this reality of the trades, it isn't surprising so many parents steer their young kids away of them as a career choice.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I will add from our personal experience, that parents and guidance counsellors are aware of the problems of aging and injury in the construction industry and steer the kids into other employment directions.
> 
> Our son severely hurt his back on the job. He went on WSIB and they sent him to dozens of doctor assessments and treatments.
> 
> ...


If you have the cash, go see a US surgeon, and maybe you can find one that is willing.
Here in Canada you're going to have trouble getting referrals to a few different surgeons.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ If you have the cash, it's a guaranteed you can find a surgeon in the USA who would be agreeable to perform the surgery. As to whether the surgery will "fix" your problem and permanently and satisfactorily so, that's a different story. The fix-onus is on you.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

sags said:


> I will add from our personal experience, that parents and guidance counsellors are aware of the problems of aging and injury in the construction industry and steer the kids into other employment directions.
> 
> Our son severely hurt his back on the job. He went on WSIB and they sent him to dozens of doctor assessments and treatments.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear of this long-standing injury from his job. I know of 2 people, 1 her hubby and another someone's grandson, they are leaving welding. Because to be welding for certain infrastructure and in enclosed small space, the inhalation of toxic fumes can be dangerous....despite wearing respirator.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The WSIB replaced lawsuits against employers and originally it was a good system that looked after injured workers.

Then business lobbied politicians to lower the cost so they eliminated pensions and capped benefits at 2 years.

After that they send you information on how to apply for CPP disability and welfare benefits.

Don’t get hurt at work because they don’t care and if you get severe injuries they have a scale of what body parts are worth…. and it isn’t very much.

It is one of those things that people believe won’t happen to them so there is no public outrage about it.

We aren’t much better than third world countries where the injured go around begging.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> So many work environments are steel cage matches of attrition. It's heartbreaking to think about what it's doing to those who have to work in that. Anger is a terrible disability that spreads like a virus.
> 
> We had a guy who would open a meeting by explaining how stupid someone was. He would focus on a ton of different people, over the years. I recall saying, "Hey! He is a good guy and he's on our team." The response... "Yeah, and he's dumb as F*." My gawd. lol!


That's along the lines of "what ways can the go live date be moved up?". Five ways presented, all rejected and the date was moved anyway, setting up failure and an analysis of why the date wasn't met.

There is also knowing that being rated as competent meant getting a set raise where only one person in the department could qualify for a better raise. Everyone knew that management was scared one employee would leave so everyone knew that the better raise was off the table.


Executive to Director: The number say our department has to fire two people.

Director to Executive: The deadwood has been fired long ago. The people who are left are at projects, making the company money.

Executive to Director: What's the problem? Figure out who to bring in and fire. Then figure out how to cover off that contract.



The worst was the tech company where company policy was to give the same project, independently to two employees. Whomever finished first kept their job and the other employee was fired.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

londoncalling said:


> I think employer and employee loyalty no longer exists. Both parties understand that the probability that 5, 10 or 15 years from now it is unlikely they will still be part of each others lives ...


I was telling co-workers this in the early '90's. Most did not believe me until management had HR send out a booklet with a guide to the "new" work methods. Points the attention of those who doubted me were that employees would now pay for their own training and being in same job for three years meant one was deadwood that could not learn anything where they should fired.

Management celebrated the cost savings for a few years. When I was out with former co-workers still at that company, a few years later - the same management was wondering why new hires demanded more salary and good employees were leaving at the drop of a hat (i.e. no employee loyalty to the company).

Others left after they had seen co-workers fired for petty things they could not control (ex. What do you mean you can't move a structural, basement wall before my meeting in an hour?).


Cheers


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## Jericho (Dec 23, 2011)

I can't help but think that our abysmal birth rates and retiring boomer generation are factors in this. The number one reason people tell me they cannot have kids, or have more kids is because it costs too much. Government needs to do more to ensure that the economy here is strong and that it is more than affordable for Canadians to have families.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

This planet is overloaded with 8 or 9 billion of us already. Solve the massive retirement of boomers and lack of Gen-Zers with targeted immigration of skilled working age individuals and families who are more likely to work harder and be more ambitious than much of our own homegrown variety anyway. Massive immigration in the late 1800s and early 1900s built this country and the USA to become the economic engines that we are today. Keep the model going. We are better for it having a multi-cultural society anyway.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> harder and be more ambitious


Looking for a cheap labour from Indian and Philippines ? How about paying decent wages to over one million currently unemployed Canadians? I don’t believe in existence of the labour shortage but I believe that most of those unfilled positions are offering below labour market wages, that is why they remain unfilled.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Some of the unemployment may/could/would be wage related but most of it is not. Much of it is a skills mismatch, lack of motivation and unwillingness to re-locate. We have shortages in almost all professions and trades.

Please get over your ideological bent and quite frankly, what appears to be racial bias, against hard working immigrants from a variety of countries on this planet. 63% of 2021 immigrants were economic immigrants.

Canada is widely recognized worldwide as having a highly successful immigration program prioritizing economic immigrants. Precisely the people we need and we need to keep up the good work.

Added: Here is a different source got full year 2021 data. I am looking forward to 2022 numbers.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> Much of it is a skills mismatch, lack of motivation and unwillingness to re-locate.


Reason for this ? Low wages. Give unemployed decent wages and re education will happen, high reward is the best motivator for relocating and all


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Countries with the lowest unemployment rates: · 1. Cambodia, 0.3% · 2. Qatar, 0.6% · 3. Thailand, 0.7%

vs Canada 5-6%


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

No one really cares how those countries measure unemployment or why and you know that. Quit digging.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Reason for this ? Low wages. Give unemployed decent wages and re education will happen, high reward is the best motivator for relocating and all


You do realize market wage works both ways, right?
At some point employee is simply too expensive to make sense for the employer and it is better to leave the position unfilled


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

My job is largely to manage capital projects to reduce unionized blue collar work by 70%. Business is booming.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Jericho said:


> I can't help but think that our abysmal birth rates and retiring boomer generation are factors in this. The number one reason people tell me they cannot have kids, or have more kids is because it costs too much. Government needs to do more to ensure that the economy here is strong and that it is more than affordable for Canadians to have families.


Developed economies throughout history have experienced what is happening in North America presently. Growing populations (birth rate, mortality rate, life expectancy) help to improve standards of living until they reach a point where maintaining that standard becomes too expensive. The G7 are trying dearly to hold onto power but will need to rely on each other to do so. It is tough to maintain standard of living, raise wages and grow the economy while competing with less regulated countries that have cheaper labour.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

londoncalling said:


> Developed economies throughout history have experienced what is happening in North America presently. Growing populations (birth rate, mortality rate, life expectancy) help to improve standards of living until they reach a point where maintaining that standard becomes too expensive. The G7 are trying dearly to hold onto power but will need to rely on each other to do so. It is tough to maintain standard of living, raise wages and grow the economy while competing with less regulated countries that have cheaper labour.


You can't sustainable raise real wages without productivity improvements.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> You can't sustainable raise real wages without productivity improvements.


Yes. And increased productivity requires investment through

1) New technology - R&D
2) More productive workforce - improved skills, flexible work practices, 
3) increased net migration - targeted to needed skills currently in short supply
4) Public sector investment - improved spending on education and infrastructure instead of handing out money for consumer spending
5) increase the retirement age to increase labour supply. IMO 5) provides economic savings for governments but does not promote 1-3 (4) which I believe are better drivers of economic growth.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> You can't sustainable raise real wages without productivity improvements.


If I were to relocate to the USA on TN visa I would make almost twice as much in Canadian dollars doing the same job. Plus I could relocate to the lower taxes state for instance Nevada and pay 10% less taxes compared to Canada. Never mind friendly climate and employer proved full medical coverage, and don’t have to wait if needed months or years to get surgery done. 
I am vigorously trying to find any advantages for staying in Canada.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If I were to relocate to the USA on TN visa I would make almost twice as much in Canadian dollars doing the same job. Plus I could relocate to the lower taxes state for instance Nevada and pay 10% less taxes compared to Canada. Never mind friendly climate and employer proved full medical coverage, and don’t have to wait if needed months or years to get surgery done.
> I am vigorously trying to find any advantages for staying in Canada.


Honestly, for the higher income jobs... not much.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If I were to relocate to the USA on TN visa I would make almost twice as much in Canadian dollars doing the same job. Plus I could relocate to the lower taxes state for instance Nevada and pay 10% less taxes compared to Canada. Never mind friendly climate and employer proved full medical coverage, and don’t have to wait if needed months or years to get surgery done.
> I am vigorously trying to find any advantages for staying in Canada.


Americans still have pay healthy premiums for health care ...even in retirement. If one has cancer, etc. The other Internet cycling forum where I've been for past decade, there are personal stories of waiting at times OR prostcranstinating care because up front costs to see ie. $400.00 US to see an allergist. Depends on American's private employer sponsored care.
Look out in retirement. There are several American forum members who can't retire until ie. 68 because of health care. This is a single woman.Keeps fit, etc. she works in a office job.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Health care costs are the terrible consequences of living in the USA. Most employers have capped what they will pay in premiums and most have forced employees into specific networks restricting where one gets their health care. Annuitants are mostly on their own. I've been an ex-pat 3 times over a total period of about 10 years and my family and I have had plenty of decent health experiences....but it is not a panacea.

While I agree working and some living conditions can be better in the USA, with greater earning and purchasing power, it is not a place where I'd remotely consider trying to get permanent residency for my retirement years.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

And this group of Americans which tend to around this group's age range, some of them do have their health issues. But over all, they seem to have abit greater awareness of what is good/healthy eat and some of course do different sports, exercises. (not just cycling, hiking/walking lots, kayaking, diving, etc.) but like anyone else people fall off the wagon for a few months/years before dragging themselves back on a better path to health.

So I am hanging out in this group of Americans who respect good health/fitness habits /information at least. Lots of stories fighting with private insurers, getting double, even triple billed for same thing. Just very costly all that administrative costs and waste of patients' personal time. And remember these are Americans, who have employer sponsored private health insurance. Just imagine those who don't have this private benefit.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

As someone who has siblings who are health care professionals in Greater Toronto Area: 1 family-emergency medicine doctor,1 pediatrician, 1 pharmacist (hospital at st. Mike's, she also gets involved in drug clinical trial studies), 1 in IT and 1 other patient in-take for pediatric cancer ward, I will say this: unless you have alot of money set aside for health care long term as your health falls apart just from aging, don't about the U.S. as a saviour system for health care.

It's for the wealthy. There's woman in our cycling forum who has multiple sclerosis and being kept a bay. I think she and hubby (a nurse), had alot of FANG stocks that they cashed. Howe many people are like that??? That is not the norm...at all.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

My siblings all work in different hospitals. So..no nepotism.  I get really angry at Canadians who take our public health care system for granted. My father died from prostate cancer. But he had 7 years of high quality life. He was seen by specialist at 1 of CAnada's top cancer hospitals, Princess Margaret. He died in pallative care (only there for 4 months) at a different Toronto hospital..the chemo weakened a 85-yr. guy. No, we weren't left with much of a medical care bill at all. 

The difference is please don't be dumb to live out in an isolated area near end of life....far from hospitals with medical specialists. Then you will have more challenges getting updated medical expertise....unless you advocate heavily and pay for your airflight/hotel.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jlunfirst said:


> don't about the U.S.


Who said one must stay on TN visa their whole life in the USA? You go there make money for retirement and if you are not feeling well come back to Canada to ”enjoy “ the climate, and “all inclusive“ health care.
Or if you are still feeling well retire in the USA or costa Rica or any other place that you like


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Which is what some people do and good on them. I don't quite know what that has to do with the labour shortages happening though in a number of industries in developed countries.


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Who said one must stay on TN visa their whole life in the USA? You go there make money for retirement and if you are not feeling well come back to Canada to ”enjoy “ the climate, and “all inclusive“ health care.
> Or if you are still feeling well retire in the USA or costa Rica or any other place that you like


Then leave and get a job in the U.S. No one is stopping you. I was flown and interviewed for a job with a university in California. I didn't succeed... that was 25 yrs. ago. However my Toronto nephew graduate from U. of W. and same his GF in mechantronics (robotics in mechanical engineering). He has FTE job with Meta for only past 18 months. Wonder how long, given the massive layoffs. 

It's all hip and sexy to work in the U.S., a foreign country. I'm glad for them. GF is with Stripe. I just they won't be dumb enough to give up their citizenship yet.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> Which is what some people do and good on them. I don't quite know what that has to do with the labour shortages happening though in a number of industries in developed countries.


If I were to tell you that doing the same job with exactly the same productivity in the USA I could make almost twice as much and pay 10% less in taxes.
Perhaps Canada should match up with the USA to avoid labor shortages and brain drain. Instead of bringing tons of cheap labor.
would you prefer your newly minted surgeon was trained in the USA, Canada, Europe or India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc ?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I actually dont care where my doctors and nurses are from. I have interfaced with professionals from a wide range of places. They have been vetted to work in their occupations.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> I actually dont care where my doctors and nurses are from. I have interfaced with professionals from a wide range of places. They have been vetted to work in their occupations.


You don’t care until you get the precedent. 
“vetted” is the strong word I would refrain from using it in the circumstances when country desperately lacking such “professionals” coming from countries with bought degrees and bribed grades. 
each to their own ;-)


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If I were to relocate to the USA on TN visa I would make almost twice as much in Canadian dollars doing the same job. Plus I could relocate to the lower taxes state for instance Nevada and pay 10% less taxes compared to Canada ...


You know the details. Though if you haven't researched it thoroughly, you could be like my cousin who found it wasn't as different tax wise as he though. He ended up returning to Canada in a year or so.

I've also seen many letters from those who have relocated saying that after living in the US a while so that all the costs were clear, it was pretty much the same as living in Canada. The wide choice of jobs versus how few were in Canada and/or family living the in the US was typically what they wrote was keeping them in the US.

Thorough research IMO is critical. States can ignore what the Feds put into the Canada - US tax treaty and/or allow cities to levy their own income tax (seventeen states according to one article). 




Ukrainiandude said:


> ... Never mind friendly climate and employer proved full medical coverage, and don’t have to wait if needed months or years to get surgery done.


My co-worker who spent time working in Silicon Valley said his company would change providers as much as seven times in a year, if a new healthcare provider offered something cheaper. He'd have to make sure the claim was on the right form to the correct company and even then, sometimes he'd have to fight to get paid. 

As for fast surgery - according to my relatives in California, step one is to get a second opinion on whether the surgery is needed. Apparently several have had surgery recommended for a problem that a change in diet fixed much more cheaply.




Ukrainiandude said:


> ... I am vigorously trying to find any advantages for staying in Canada.


There are great parts of the US with good employers and other parts that are not so great as well as not so great employers.


Cheers


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Ukrainiandude said:


> You don’t care until you get the precedent.
> “vetted” is the strong word I would refrain from using it in the circumstances when country desperately lacking such “professionals” coming from countries with bought degrees and bribed grades.
> each to their own ;-)


I've seen some of your comments in this entire thread...some pretty offensive.

You do realize that physician from another country, has to take some courses all over again and get retested to get their Canadian MD by the College of Physicians, etc. It's a long hard journey. I don't wish to argue about this ...when there are 2 physicians in my own family. 1 of them is tired.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> ... “vetted” is the strong word I would refrain from using it in the circumstances when country desperately lacking such “professionals” coming from countries with bought degrees and bribed grades ...


Hmmm ... is that why the taxi driver driving me last week was a foreign trained doctor?

Or how about the internationally trained doctor Canada recruited in 2007, who paid $2K per Canadian licensing exam but could not secure a residency spot. She thought Ontario's temporary license program that covid triggered might help but after applying, she never received a response. 

There's also the nurses who has completed their Canadian training that should be able to work. They aren't allowed to as they are still waiting for their work permit to be produced. A US trained nurse who has been trying for twenty months to get a work permit says it not only prevents her from working but also from finding out if Canadian courses will be needed to be taken or not!!


Cheers


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## jlunfirst (1 mo ago)

Eclectic21 said:


> Hmmm ... is that why the taxi driver driving me last week was a foreign trained doctor?
> 
> Or how about the internationally trained doctor Canada recruited in 2007, who paid $2K per Canadian licensing exam but could not secure a residency spot. She thought Ontario's temporary license program that covid triggered might help but after applying, she never received a response.
> 
> ...


I wish people realize that a practicing doctor has to buy malpractice insurance. How many of us have to do that? Unless you have a family member who is a physician.....people have no idea the degree of pressure and scrutiny on your daily work.

And a doctor intern yes, folks do work 80 hr. shifts. It angered me those anti-vaxxers cutting down doctors and nurses. Totally, just totally wrong. And guess who will save their lives?!

My baby sister who is now 53 yrs., is the doctor. The one who I sung lullabyes as a baby.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Eclectic21 said:


> He ended up returning to Canada in a year or so.


Probably depends on many variables. A colleague of mine who moved to the states several years ago. The only regret he has, why he didn’t move sooner, why wasted his time in Canada. He actually said that health insurance “horror stories “ probably made up by either immigration services (who would not want Canada to lose its appeal for professionals) or by boomers who still remember times when health insurance was terrible indeed. His employer pays the bigger chunk of premiums of not all of it, and according to him, he got “full medical coverage“ Fully funded health insurance for him and plans for family members.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US is having the same labor and health care crisis as Canada. Hospitals in Kansas are overflowing with patients.

One of the problems with Canada's healthcare system is the hospitals do the hiring and they didn't have the funds to hire more when they could have.

It wasn't that long ago that staff in the hospitals were offered full pensions for early retirement because they were closing floors and reducing staff.

Nurses were graduating and couldn't get employment, so many headed off to the US for work. Medical students couldn't get placed in a residency.

My wife was among those who accepted early retirement with a full pension plus a newly created bridge benefit to entice staff to retire to lower the head count.

Our labor problems in healthcare were self inflected by governments who wanted to cut healthcare costs for political ideology reasons.

We know which political party that is.

It is the same with skilled trades. For decades the government let the work force age in place without financial support for apprenticeship programs.

This is a labor crisis that was years in the making.


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## coptzr (Jan 18, 2013)

jlunfirst said:


> I wish people realize that a practicing doctor has to buy malpractice insurance. How many of us have to do that? Unless you have a family member who is a physician.....people have no idea the degree of pressure and scrutiny on your daily work.


There are many professions and types of business which, if legit, carry insurance at a huge cost with a lot of liability.


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## coptzr (Jan 18, 2013)

Beaver101 said:


> ^ Partly that along with the "attitudes" of many employers, particularly those at the hiring-decision-makers level.
> 
> I'm sure the "quality" just gets better with the "dime-by-the-dozens" remarks that I often hear from ex-bosses. LMAO.


Someone who makes a point for the other side. I laugh every time I see my last employer posting my old position, over 10yrs later. I was not employee of the month but I did not ever miss time and my work made the company decent profits for 10yrs. It was almost a daily occurrence to be told "If you can't do this right, go the fk home.", "You can't be this f'ing slow.", or "This is first principles, basic sh!t you should know", etc...
The breaking point was when I explained wage vs living cost, he replied that I should move next to work and downsize. 
More recently I spoke to some local companies regarding their openings. I can deal with less pay, but their benefits and personal time offerings were practically non-existent. I don't take vacations, only ask for a 1/2 or whole day off per month for personal emergencies or pre-booked appointments. Almost every one replied, nothing until after one year.
Hopefully this has been a learning experience for some employers who said "You can easily be replaced at any time." It is not so easy anymore.

Regarding general labor shortage, my opinion is many learned how to play the system even better to avoid having to work 12months per year. We will see a cleanup soon where the spots that were filled by desperation with the incompetent will be dumped.


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