# Any motorcycle owners here?



## Sherlock

Just got my M1 licence, and looking to buy a bike soon. Will probably get a smaller sport bike, like a Kawasaki Ninja 250. I'm not getting a bike out of any necessity such as to save money, I have no intention of getting rid of my car, the bike is just a fun thing, something I think I'd probably enjoy doing on weekends. Apparently the Ninja 250 gets 60-70 mpg so it would be a cheap and fun way to explore a lot of the country side which I've never seen. Wondering if anyone else here rides.


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## liquidfinance

I have a Suzuki GSX 650F.

I got my licence in the UK in 2007 and then got my M1 in July and passed my M2 Exit in September. I was able to bypass the time for holding the licence and M2 stage because of the previous licence experience. 

This didn't however help me when it came to the cost of insurance which stands at $1750 for full coverage. My 650 returns about 55 - 60MPG and you should easily attain the 60-70mpg with the 250.

They are fantastic bikes to start out on with cheaper insurance. They are nimble with adequate performance and can cope with highway speeds (once you get your M2) but are not likely to get you into too much bother with the law. 

I absolutely love to ride! It's an different feeling of freedom to me. I did a couple of trips from the UK to Spain and also to Morocco.

I have been on the bike a few times already this month. Having said that the only month it didn't get any use was February. 

Where in the country are you?

A little Perception from a riders point of view. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FiPgAMXZKI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Sherlock

Interesting video! I'm in Toronto, though I'm not much interested in driving aroudn the city. I would like to explore the entire area north of the GTA, everything from Barrie all the way up to sudbury and algonquin. It's amazing how I've lived in Ontario all my life yet I've seen so little of it. I know the area between toronto and windsor pretty well but I've never been north of barrie. Ontario is so huge that I can ride every day for years and not see everything, and that's just southern ontario. Should be a fun summer, assuming everything goes according to plan, still haven't even been on a motorcycle and gotta take the msf course, might find I just don't like riding, though I doubt it.


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## liquidfinance

I'm pretty sure you will enjoy it. 

So far I haven't been able to explore a great deal here. 
There are a fair few routes picked out for this summer. Not sure how many I will get to do. 

Last weekend was a nice ride out to Rice Lake and then I followed the lakeshore road from Port Hope to Newcastle before getting on the 401 back to Whitby. Even that was a fantastic little route for just a couple of hours out. 

This has quite a few route ideas
http://www.gorideontario.ca/en/motorcycle

Not sure if you're aware but its also the Spring Motorcycle Show this weekend at the International Centre.
http://motorcyclespringshow.com/


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## m3s

Sherlock said:


> Will probably get a smaller sport bike, like a Kawasaki Ninja 250. Wondering if anyone else here rides.


Welcome to a new way of life

I applaud you for considering a 250cc as many just jump to the 600cc sport bike (as I did..) but I'll give you some other considerations. A 250 will not be the best for the long open Canadian roads you are planning. The sweet spot is around 400-700cc imo and anything more is beyond the need of even amateur racers let alone a beginner. I would buy a used bike that is not classified as a sport bike. Used bikes built in Japan are very reliable and the new trend in Europe and maybe eventually NA is streetfighter and supermotards. They are much cheaper to insure, more comfortable ergo, and imo more fun on the street.

250cc would be fine for the city, but strained on the nice roads with a full sized adult. Sport bike is mostly the race ergonomics, stiff suspension, plastics and insurance, none of which you really want. Check out for example a 400cc DRZ super moto; one of the most reliable and efficient bikes there are. Insurance will be cheap and parts will be easy to source. If you go a bit bigger you could consider a Kawasaki ER6N or Yamaha FZ8 for example. You should understand that a 4 cyl bike is made to rev high and has less power in low rev, whereas 2 cyl have far more usable torque on the street. Magazines are raving about the Triumph 3 cyl engines as the sweet spot.

I have an F800GS. Burns less gas than a Prius while outrunning a Mustang and going more places than a Jeep! I had a Kawasaki z750 before which is basically a Ninja tuned for the street (today I would buy ER6N though) I also still have my FZR 600cc carbureted crotch rocket.


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## Spudd

Sherlock, you should watch "One Week", a movie starring Joshua Jackson, if you haven't seen it. I think it would be right up your alley.


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## carverman

I used to ride..started out years ago on a 66 Triumph tiger cub, then a Triumph Bonneville 650. In the 60s, there was no such thing as an M1/M2 or M licence. If you had a car licence, you could operate a motorcycle. 
Some acquaintenances that also had motorcycles were injured, some barely escaped with their lives..and some didn't...(Deer/Moose) collisions.
I didn't ride for a few years during my married and raising family days..but when I was free to choose my destiny, I started to ride again..but by then the graduated licence in Ontario was implemented and I didn't bother for
about 20 years to do the original written test to be grandfathered for an M endorsement with my licence. I took a Motorcycle Safety course at a local college and passed it after the second attempt and got my M1
and then went to M2 on a Yamaha XS650. I'm glad I took the motorcycle safety course, because it came in very handy in preventing injury to myself on few occasions.

I finished off getting my M licence and bought a big touring bike, a 1300cc V4 Yamaha Venture that I was planning on taking down to the Blue Ridge Parkway in the US. In the first month of riding this powerful bike
I came into a curve too fast and couldn't get it to follow the curve, inspite of trying countersteering. The bike crossed the solid line and fortunately for me there was no cars coming the other way, otherwise.....
anyway...I bailed off the bike on the shoulder as it slid into the ditch on it's fairing..busting up very expensive plastic. I blacked out for a second or two, but after I checked myself for no broken bones or blood,
my first thoughts were to find out what happened to my bike..which was lying on it's side in a deep ditch. I went down to pick it up, but it was too heavy for me to pick up in the ditch. Fortunately a couple of
passing motorists helped me right the bike. I started it up and "walked" it out of the ditch in first gear. Parked it on the side of the highway and picked up what pieces I could find and tested the brakes.
Once I determined the brakes were safe to ride, I rode it home (although much slower) into my garage, where I spent the next month or two fixing it up.

Later on, I decided that the V4 touring bike was too top heavy for me and bought a new Yamaha Virago 1100..which I rode until I stop riding due to health reasons.

One of the most important things I learned in the motorcycle saftey course is an acroynmn called SIPDE. I would strong suggest that you memorize this acronym and rehearse it each time your ride. It may keep you safe while riding.

S- Scan the road ahead of you looking for threats (deer, animals, cars pulling out of laneways, road hazards)
I - Identify in your mind which are real threats to start to think about evasive actions
P- Predict (if you can) what the threat may do to involve you in a possible accident and injury to yourself
D- Decide on a evasive maneuver to execute BEFORE you encounter the threat (swerve or brake)
E- once you decide on your evasive action..EXECUTE it.


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## Sherlock

mode3sour said:


> I applaud you for considering a 250cc as many just jump to the 600cc sport bike (as I did..) but I'll give you some other considerations. A 250 will not be the best for the long open Canadian roads you are planning. The sweet spot is around 400-700cc imo and anything more is beyond the need of even amateur racers let alone a beginner. I would buy a used bike that is not classified as a sport bike. Used bikes built in Japan are very reliable and the new trend in Europe and maybe eventually NA is streetfighter and supermotards. They are much cheaper to insure, more comfortable ergo, and imo more fun on the street.


I've read a lot about the ninjas and watched some youtube clips and the consensus seems to be that the ninja 250 has no trouble cruising at highway speeds and getting at over 150 km/h with a heavy rider. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chZHk8VK42M

Another option might be the Ninja 650 or the Suzuki GS500F though my understanding is that insurance is based on cc's so the 250 would be far chaeper to insure, and then after I've had my licence for a year the insurance drops significantly so I could move up to a bigger bike then. The great thing abotu the 250s is that they are very in-demand so you can buy a used one and then resell it a year later for very little loss.

As for the 600c supersports, the problem is the hunched over riding position, I'm just not sure I'd be comfortable in that position for longer periods of time. The reading I've done suggests that people who start on a slow bike learn to be good riders much quicker than someone who starts on a supersport. And apparently it's much more fun to ride a slow bike hard than a fast bike slow. Also any bike classified as a supersport has significantly higher insurance costs, especially for a new rider.


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## Sherlock

carverman said:


> I took a Motorcycle Safety course at a local college and passed it after the second attempt


So despite having previous riding experience you still failed it the first time? Now I'm scared to take my course, because I have never been on a motorcycle at all. Any tips for passing those courses?

The sipde thing is interesting, however all those points you mentioned, I already do it all when I'm driving my car. So there's nothing new there. The acronym I've heard a lot is atgatt (all the gear all the time), eg jacket gloves boots and helmet even in the summer no riding aroudn in a t-shirt and shorts.

This is gonna be me:


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## Daniel A.

I've been riding for 42 years now.

Honda Goldwing has been my ride for the last eight years, before that Yamaha V Max, before that Goldwing, before that Moto Guzzi, before that Honda 750, before that Suzuki 380, and a few different rides before.


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## m3s

Sherlock said:


> As for the 600c supersports, the problem is the hunched over riding position, I'm just not sure I'd be comfortable in that position for longer periods of time. The reading I've done suggests that people who start on a slow bike learn to be good riders much quicker than someone who starts on a supersport. And apparently it's much more fun to ride a slow bike hard than a fast bike slow. Also any bike classified as a supersport has significantly higher insurance costs, especially for a new rider.


Yes this is all true. That position is meant for 150kmh+ when the wind is so strong and the revs are high... they aren't designed for streets at all (my 600 easily breaks 80kmh in 1st and 110kmh in 2nd)

I haven't ridden a 250 "sport bike" but I am a huge fan of "less is more". I could easily move to a smaller bike if it had good suspension and brakes etc, but nobody really makes such a thing (marketing wants you to buy the big $$$ bikes) I think you will be bored of 250 after 1 year, but that's great if the resale is good. People who want a good small "street" bike end up converting dirt bikes to super motos, but the DRZ is the best small bike "out of the box" imo

The Ninja 650 you mention is the ER6N I suggested just sans sport bike plastics (well actually it's an ER6N with plastics to look like a sport bike) I have lots of seat time on the ER6N and I would easily buy one myself, and it's fine for a beginner to grow into. There's also a touring version of it called Versys. In some provinces anyways I'm sure the ER6N is half the price to insure than the Ninja 650, and the plastics are just something expensive to replace


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## liquidfinance

mode3sour said:


> I have an F800GS. Burns less gas than a Prius while outrunning a Mustang and going more places than a Jeep! I had a Kawasaki z750 before which is basically a Ninja tuned for the street (today I would buy ER6N though) I also still have my FZR 600cc carbureted crotch rocket.


What a fantastic bike. This is what I really want. 

For the next couple of years I think I will be sticking with the GSX650F which really is in the same ball park as the NINJA 650. 

Great Economy 
Reasonable riding position
Reasonable Performance etc.

I just need something with that little bit of off road / adventure capability.

How have you found the F800 since ownership?


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## carverman

Sherlock said:


> So despite having previous riding experience you still failed it the first time? Now I'm scared to take my course, because I have never been on a motorcycle at all. Any tips for passing those courses?
> 
> The sipde thing is interesting, however all those points you mentioned, I already do it all when I'm driving my car. So there's nothing new there. The acronym I've heard a lot is atgatt (all the gear all the time), eg jacket gloves boots and helmet even in the summer no riding aroudn in a t-shirt and shorts.
> 
> This is gonna be me:


nice! Cute Umbrella girls. 

The Motorcycle Safety Foundation organization holds these courses, (I failed on the Ottawa Alqonquin campus but passed at the Toronto Seneca College campus) has a very stringent testing procedure in order for you to get your M1.
If you already have your M1, then you got it by doing the test. The MSF M2 course is about 5 days (4 hrs per day in the evenings and on Saturday the full day. The final day is the test and basically a series of timed tests (time with a stop watch for braking efficiency) and an obstacle course where you have to swerve left and then right, in 2nd gear, I think. There are several safety actions they present to you to see if you can really handle a motorcycle.
However, if you manage to fall over during braking..you fail the test! And no STOPPIES or Wheelies allowed. If you do..you get kicked out of the course. 

Boots, gloves, Helmet, protected sleeves (no t-shirts) and at least blue jeans. These are for your safety as road rash (if you lose it) is not a pretty sight, even at parking lot speeds. At highway speeds, you can lose
a lot of skin on the pavement..if you go down for some reason.

They have classroom and parking lot drills and it is for your own survival. Sipde probably kept me from getting seriously injured in a couple "near misses".


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## olivaw

Congratulations on the M1. I've been riding for almost 40 years. 

I applaud your decision to start with a 250cc Ninja. Those bikes look like sport bikes but they are really standard bikes. They're well behaved and reliable. Personally, I'd buy used so that you aren't too upset if you drop the bike. The plastic can be expensive to fix. 

Different bikes appeal to all of us. If you decide to continue riding and want to replace the 250cc in the future, you will probably know what type of riding and what style of bike appeals to you. 



> Boots, gloves, Helmet, protected sleeves (no t-shirts) and at least blue jeans. These are for your safety as road rash (if you lose it) is not a pretty sight, even at parking lot speeds. At highway speeds, you can lose
> a lot of skin on the pavement..if you go down for some reason.


I agree with this poster about safety equipment. Only thing I would add is to invest in decent protective overpants or Kevlar lined jeans. They're expensive but worth it.

The most important piece of safety equipment is your brain. Ride safe.

And watch this great video from Taiwan.....


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## carverman

olivaw said:


> I agree with this poster about safety equipment. Only thing I would add is to invest in decent protective overpants or Kevlar lined jeans. They're expensive but worth it.


You can spend quite a bit on a padded nylon riding suit or leather suit. 

I just rode my cruisers with a leather jacket and Draggin' Jeans, which are those kevlar lined blue jeans in both the Seat and the knees.
If you should go down, you would normally go down on your butt and that would experience some serious road rash..or sometimes on your knees, so having some extra protection is very important..as well
as staying cool in the hot weather.


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## m3s

liquidfinance said:


> How have you found the F800 since ownership?


No issues at all but it only has 13,000kms in its first year. It's a great choice considering I bought it in Germany on the weaker euro plus heavy discounts, I wouldn't pay +$5000 more for it in Canada myself. German bikes tend to have low tolerance for poor fuel or negligence, but are great if you look after them. I will have to avoid ethanol fuel in NA if that's even possible in Canada anymore as it slowly corrodes the aluminum internals. I've priced the parts in Canada and needless to say I'll be stocking up in Germany..



liquidfinance said:


> I just need something with that little bit of off road / adventure capability.


There are similar bikes such as the new Triumph Tiger, Kawasaki Versys, Vstorm and a whole bunch more that aren't sold in Canada like Yamaha Ténéré and the old classic Honda Africatwin (which I plan to bring back as are highly sought after) The Japanese ones are the most carefree in most cases, the German/Austrian/Italian ones are great if you are knowledgeable on them imo. I've never had any issues with my Japanese bikes, the BMW is a bit better but I don't see the value in the price tag really

The adventure bikes are a great choice in Canada imo, we have so many rough "adventure" roads. I would cringe for my life when I saw a pothole on a sportbike, on the F800 I speed up lol


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## olivaw

Hey Carver, just noticed that you rode a Bonnie 650 in the 60s. Beautiful bike. Despite the prince of darkness electronics, they were the ultimate in cool at the time. 

I spent about $200 on my Kevlar lined jeans (Draggin' jeans) and another $200 on my Joe Rocket Alter Ego overpants. I tend to get more use out of the overpants because I live in Alberta where the weather is unpredictable. The jeans are far more comfortable when the weather works though.


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## sags

I had bikes when I was in my teens and thought I would like them again...........so I bought a 650 Honda in my 30s.

After a couple or rides, where a woman at an intersection looked right at me.........and then pulled out in front of me (must have looked right through me), and another where a bunch of yahoos in a pickup truck got right behind me on a gravel road and followed as close as possible, I decided to get rid of it.

I have thought about it again........and I had a couple of ATVs, including a Honda 450ES...........I think I might like a "trike".

I know..........weenie, weenie...........but I like at least 3 wheels under me.........and big enough for people to see.


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## carverman

olivaw said:


> Hey Carver, just noticed that you rode a Bonnie 650 in the 60s. Beautiful bike. Despite the prince of darkness electronics, they were the ultimate in cool at the time.


Ah yes..Lucas..the prince of darkness...and Triumph's famous zener voltage regulator..the heart of the legend. :biggrin:
In 1995, I got a second hand Yahama XS650..parallel cylinders twin similar to the Triumph..and much more reliable electrics. 


> I spent about $200 on my Kevlar lined jeans (Draggin' jeans) and another $200 on my Joe Rocket Alter Ego overpants. I tend to get more use out of the overpants because I live in Alberta where the weather is unpredictable. The jeans are far more comfortable when the weather works though.


I never used overpants, but there were times in rainy weather, that I wished I did. I remember doing Americade 2000 on my Virago 1100...it rained in the morning, but since we had already booked and paid for our Vermont
covered bridge tour, my friend (riding pillion and I went ahead like the troupers we were. We took the precaution of putting on our rain gear, but after 300km of riding in the pelting rain (in June) we were thoroughly soaked.
Gloves were totally wet and the rain wicked into our socks inside our motocycle boots. My leather jacket was soaked through. When we finally got back we were feeling a bit of hypothermia and had to throw everything
into a commercial dryer..wasn't good for the leathers..but we had to ride next day.


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## carverman

sags said:


> I had bikes when I was in my teens and thought I would like them again...........so I bought a 650 Honda in my 30s.
> 
> After a couple or rides, where a *woman at an intersection looked right at me.........and then pulled out in front of me (must have looked right through me)*, and another where a bunch of yahoos in a pickup truck got right behind me on a gravel road and followed as close as possible, I decided to get rid of it.


This is a very common safety issue with motorcycles..something that our friend SHERLOCk will soon discover. Drivers are looking for cars, NOT MOTORCYCLES...and the most common collision, besides hitting a deer,
or running off the road on a curve..is drivers hestating then pulling out in front of you at the very last second. SIPDE helps you cope with those situations as you scan for intersections. In the MSF safety course
(highly recommended) they teach you in a classroom environment how to react in those situations. I might add that at night time it is even worse for motorcycles. I avoided travelling at night in the city and
on the country roads unless I was coming back from a long ride. 



> I know..........weenie, weenie...........but I like at least 3 wheels under me.........and big enough for people to see.


trikes are ok, but in Ontario it is very hard to get insurance for them, as they are considered modified motorcycles..and it's hard enough to get regular insurance rates for motorcycles as it is.


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## twowheeled

go with the ninja 300, the extra power/torque is gonna make a huge difference. In fact that bike is good enough to be a keeper instead of something you grow out of.


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## carverman

My comment to the OP (especially with just a M1 for now) is to enroll in a MSF (Motorcycle Saftey Course) and learn survival techniques.

Yes, a more powerful motor and heavier bike is a lot more fun (once you get more familiar with the handling in all types of weather and all kinds of road conditions), BUT it also presents a challenge to your handling skills. 

The man-machine interface has to be "tuned" so that the machine and the man work as one unit, and the brain is familiar with the decision elements required..because unlike a car..you have no protection on a bike.

Speed, braking and road conditions are a major factor. Underestimate any of these 3 key elements in safe handling and you "could be in for some serious trouble", never mind anything else out there that could be ready to "take you out" at a moments notice.

I'm sure some here may be familiar with gyroscopic precession and countersteering, suspension loading, leaning, countersteering and power transfer etc..all of these play a part in going around corners on two wheels.
Get those factors wrong and it ain't gonna be as cool riding them. :biggrin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_physics


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## uptoolate

My son started riding last year. He passed the Safety Course put on by Seneca College on his first try. He had never ridden before so it definitely can be done. He wound up buying a used Ninja 250 with only 2800 km on it for 40% less than a new bike. I had tried to get him to go for the Honda 250ABS which comes with anti-lock brakes and is fuel injected but he preferred the Ninja's styling (and the lower price tag). The other option was to wait for the new Ninja 300 with ABS brakes and fuel injection but he wanted a bike last fall and the Ninja 300ABS wasn't available yet. Insurance is certainly killer given that he is the primary driver but will drop by 50% after the first year. His riding got me to get my M1 as well. I figure once I retire that I will dump one of the cars and use the bike for transport in fair weather. As far as highway cruising and pick up - the little Ninja is scary fast enough for even an 18 year old and I was very happy that he wanted to start with the 250. The speedometer goes up to 200 kph and I am pretty sure it will get there though I'm not that brave! It is so quick, it weighs less than 400 lbs!

We have several friends that ride including one who spent years as a motorcycle cop. Sound advice received from them - always plan your way out and assume that you are completely invisible to other drivers no matter what the time of day or road conditions.


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## Daniel A.

The Ninja 250 might hit 160 kph in the real world which is still good by any standard.

Most 600 class bikes on the market are far more powerful than 900 class bikes of yesteryear .

I remember well when Yamaha came out with the XS Eleven in the late seventies with a top speed of around 125 very fast for the time.


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## carverman

A 250cc is quite adequate in the first year of riding, especially with an M1 or even an M2. The insurance companies don't see you as completely experienced until you get your full M licence endorsement on your licence, after which the insurance rates drop slightly. 
Motorcycle insurance is based on several factors...experience (M1-M2-M), years of riding accident free, age, displacement and motorcycle type. Insurance rates which are more expensive than for a car in most cases, fluctuates wildly (especially in Ontario) depending on whether you have a sport bike such as a Ninja or a cruiser like a Vstar 500. A rider starting off, has to do some shopping around for insurance, so if you are lusting for that powerful "crotch rocket" Suzuki Hayabusa (GXR1300)

..you better wait for a few years and learn how to survive in todays traffic and road conditions.:biggrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Hayabusa


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## Daniel A.

Insurance rates for motorcycles are a complete joke, 80% of all accidents are the fault of the car.
Your insurance carrier gets reimbursed from the car drivers insurance after an accident so why are the rates for bikes so high.

Another point my Goldwing won't hold a candle to a 600 class bike for acceleration or top speed but due to engine size being the guild I pay more.

Bike insurance is nothing but a money grab, in the early seventies I could insure a bike far cheaper than a car today the car is cheaper.
The insurance companies talk about risk and the cost bike versus car in an accident and yes your chances of walking away after a collision with a car are rare.
Thankfully I've never had a collision in 42 years of riding but had many very close calls.

What really bothers me is that the insurance company will always collect from the car at fault remember 80% of the time your carrier is not paying anything from the bike insurance.

When people get a drivers license for cars it should be mandatory that they understand what a bike is capable of for braking.
Having cars following close behind when I know my bike can out stop the car makes me a target.

I trained riders for many years.


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## Compounding1

I own a 07 Ninja 250R. If you're thinking of taking the bike out on long trips up north of GTA, don't get a sportbike. They aren't the most comfortable  250cc is a great starter bike to learn on though. When you're just starting you might do something like tilt your wrist a bit and give too much gas by accident. Doing that on a 250 won't have the same drastic effects it would on a 600! 

I did my insurance through State Farm. I called a lot of them before I found one that would take me with my M1 for $120 a month. When I turn 25 this year, it will go down to $70/mo. 
Having said that though, I have been thinking of selling my bike because I don't ride it as often as I should for $120 a month.


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## carverman

Daniel A. said:


> Insurance rates for motorcycles are a complete joke, 80% of all accidents are the fault of the car.
> Your insurance carrier gets reimbursed from the car drivers insurance after an accident so why are the rates for bikes so high.
> 
> Another point my Goldwing won't hold a candle to a 600 class bike for acceleration or top speed but due to engine size being the guild I pay more.


I agree that insurance is not set up to be fair. You pay for displacment and type..the bigger the displacement, the more you pay in PL&PD.



> Bike insurance is nothing but a money grab, in the early seventies I could insure a bike far cheaper than a car today the car is cheaper.
> The insurance companies talk about risk and the cost bike versus car in an accident and yes your chances of walking away after a collision with a car are rare.
> Thankfully I've never had a collision in 42 years of riding but had many very close calls.


I think that is because insurers see motorycles as high risk and the injuries (to the rider) can be very severe, so they charge a lot more for the medical portion.



> What really bothers me is that the insurance company will always collect from the car at fault remember 80% of the time your carrier is not paying anything from the bike insurance.


However, there are many cases where the rider runs off the road, (happened to me on a curve when I wasn't used to a big powerful 1300cc V4. It was in the first week of riding.
came into the curve much too fast and stayed in 5th...bad mistake..as soon as you grab the front brake lever..that's pretty much it. Probably ABS would have saved me from that
"single vehicle" accident, but my used bike didn't have that.



> When people get a drivers license for cars it should be mandatory that they understand what a bike is capable of for braking.
> Having cars following close behind when I know my bike can out stop the car makes me a target.


Most drivers are brain dead when driving and are not looking for a bike...they see "right through you". 
The first year of riding generally has the highest accident rate...there are so many road conditions that you are not used too.
For instance, sand on the roads in the spring..hit some loose sand while leaned over on a curve..and you have some exciting few moments trying to recover your steering.
The contact patch of a motorcycle tire when it's leaned over is very small. 



> I trained riders for many years.


Good to know that there are instructors out there that can teach the newbies how to survive in their first year.


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## carverman

Compounding1 said:


> I own a 07 Ninja 250R. If you're thinking of taking the bike out on long trips up north of GTA, don't get a sportbike. They aren't the most comfortable  250cc is a great starter bike to learn on though. When you're just starting you might do something like tilt your wrist a bit and give too much gas by accident. Doing that on a 250 won't have the same drastic effects it would on a 600!
> 
> I did my insurance through State Farm. I called a lot of them before I found one that would take me with my M1 for $120 a month. When I turn 25 this year, it will go down to $70/mo.
> Having said that though, I have been thinking of selling my bike because I don't ride it as often as I should for $120 a month.


At one time (back about 10 yrs or so, you could insure a bike for 6 months and same with the sticker...but I think they did away with that quite a few years ago.

In Canada, where we only have about 5 to 5 1/2 months of riding, paying year round for riding for 5 months is expensive, because in essence $120 x 12months = $1440 a year..
but for the actual 5 months it's really $288 a month..and this is for a 250cc. As soon as you mention anything over 500cc, the rates skyrocket.


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## Barwelle

I just signed up for motorcycle rider training in June. Hopefully I don't chicken out... (I did last year.)

Though this is more the bike that I would get. Check the link... what a great video. I'm a little jealous of you guys in Ontario and BC (And mode in DE) because you would have roads like this. It's mostly straight roads around here. Gotta go to the mountains.


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## carverman

Barwelle said:


> Though this is more the bike that I would get. Check the link... what a great video. I'm a little jealous of you guys in Ontario and BC (And mode in DE) because you would have roads like this. It's mostly straight roads around here. Gotta go to the mountains.


Ah yes! Nice video! Reminds me of my XS650 days. You shouldn't be afraid of the MSF training, it may be a bit strenuous because they "work" you, but it's for your own good.

One thing that I did with my bikes after I first got them and before going on the road, was to go to a public school parking lot (after school hours) and set up some "cones" (targets for your eyes) and then do figure 8's around these cones..continuously..first one way and then another and learn to lean the bike until I could hear the foot pegs scrape a bit. 

This speeded up the "man-machine interface" as I call it, so you would be comfortable with the bike leaning while in second gear.
Of course you have to be careful applying the brakes while leaning over..if you lock the front wheel accidently due
to too much lever pressure..you will fall over (go down)..but better experience this in a parking lot where you
can learn from your mistakes without any injury.


----------



## Barwelle

The training isn't what makes me afraid... what makes me uncomfortable is the thought of hurtling down a road at 110km/hr, mere feet away from traffic hurtling down the road at 110km/hr in the opposite direction, with no cage surrounding my body to protect me!

Good suggestion about practicing in a parking lot, though I think I'll wait till after I take the course to purchase a bike.



carverman said:


> if you lock the front wheel accidently due
> to too much lever pressure..you will fall over (go down)..but better experience this in a parking lot where you
> can learn from your mistakes without any injury.


I learned that lesson a few years ago on my pedal bike. Sprained wrist on a day I wrote a college final!

That video was made by a guy named Jesse Rosten, he's got a few more great bike videos you would like. here and here, and a great... umm... videodiary?... of a trip to Europe here.


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## m3s

Barwelle said:


> Though this is more the bike that I would get. Check the link... what a great video. I'm a little jealous of you guys in Ontario and BC (And mode in DE) because you would have roads like this. It's mostly straight roads around here. Gotta go to the mountains.


That's a really cool video! I've been experimenting with videos in the Alps but it's not easy to capture the experience like that one does. And aren't you a day's ride from the Rockies?! Takes me a day to get to the Alps haha

MSF will teach you the basics and if the instructors are good they will put the fear of _God_ in you (then again my instructors were ex-army guys) and establish a good foundation of habits. I had to change some habits because I was a dirt rider, but the practical riding part of the MSF was pretty basic. You will not experience counter steering or real emergency braking or anything like that in a parking lot. It all has to be learned by experience over time on the street. There's a lot more finesse skills to learn from books or a race course, or in some countries advanced street courses. I think Ontario and Québec now have completely different programs where you have to ride with a licensed rider for a period of time (a year?) and then do an actual street test to be licensed yourself. The cones are one thing, the street is another.

It's a shame that motorbikes are so discouraged and looked down upon in Canada (they're practically trying to eradicate them in some provinces!) The culture is completely different in Europe and other (I suppose warmer) places. They're much more efficient than all the single passenger SUVs around


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## carverman

M3S; No you can't really get into the fine details of countersteering in a parking lot on a 125cc on the MSF course, but they do deal with that somewhat in the classroom environment. Anybody taking it would be still aware of it. They do show you how to swerve around obstacles (presumably a car, dog, or turtle crossing the road, (at the last second ), and that is very important if you don't really have time to brake without grabbing a mitt full of the front brake...and doing a stoppie or having the rear end slide around on you..throwing you off like a bucking bronco.

Push on one handlebar followed by an immediate push right on the other can get you out of trouble on a wet
oil slicked road surface.


----------



## carverman

Barwelle said:


> The training isn't what makes me afraid... what makes me uncomfortable is the thought of hurtling down a road at 110km/hr, mere feet away from traffic hurtling down the road at 110km/hr in the opposite direction, with no cage surrounding my body to protect me!


It's a case of mind over matter. You get used to it...but I still hated those metal bridge grates and nothing worse than going along at
(120kmph or maybe a wee bit more..and hitting those pavement grinder marks at those speeds..yee haaa!...and forgetting to take a change of underwear!:biggrin:


----------



## Daniel A.

Most of the problems I ever got into were the result of my own doing.
In my younger days I took far more risk than I should have and paid with my share of road rash.

Open roads are the least of problems unless hitting corners to fast.

The city is where the danger is, I take a very defensive/ aggressive position in the city.
I'm consistently assessing all traffic around me front, back, and beside, know where they are and assume nothing.

Never assume the car see's you, plan a defensive move as you approach, what if the car turns or pulls out what would you do. 
Have it set in your mind.


I always have a way out and demand respect claiming my space on the road. 
The bike is far more capable than most riders know.
Don't ride in a cars blind spot move out of it even if it means going a bit faster you don't want to be there. 

I am using all my lane all the time throwing the bike from one tire lane over to the other and back.

Pulsing headlamps today help make you visible well worth the money.


----------



## carverman

Daniel A. said:


> Open roads are the least of problems unless hitting corners to fast.


In the evening/early morning (usually fall or spring), there are these bambi's that seem to prefer to graze in the ditches too. 
I remember one night coming home from a carving course in Merrickville along one of the lesser travelled roads when I perceived shiny eyes in the middle of the road. Two deer were just standing there staring at me..classic "deer caught in the headlights"...I braked to a stop and blew my horn, waved my arms etc and finally they decided to move to the other side..so you never know what you can run into (pardon the pun)
on the country roads. 




> I am using all my lane all the time throwing the bike from one tire lane over to the other and back.


That's probably good safety practice to make sure they see you, but on the safety course they tell you to stay in the left hand tire
track usually, but there are exceptions when riding staggered in group, of course. 



> Pulsing headlamps today help make you visible well worth the money.


Yes, so is a optional lightbar. I had one on my last big cruiser and would turn them on so that the drivers would see a trio of lights intead of just a single headlight. City buses can be a problem as well, because they will pull out from a stop and expect you to yield.
On a bike, depending where you are beside the bus, it can be a real danger.

But inspite of all kinds of lighting precautions, drivers can be brain dead, and you can get into serious problems at intersections where dirvers run the red light..and you are already entering the intersection on your green... so keeping your eyes moving and riding defensively in the city is the key...just too many bad drivers. 

I avoided city riding as much as possible preferring the country roads.


----------



## humble_pie

all u guys organizing for the rally in algonquin park on canada day? blue skies, spruce & birch forests, twisty gravel road high above a sparkling lake. At the lookout, it's the CMF Biker Calendar photo op !


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## Barwelle

Mode, I'm about 5 hours from the Rockies. My complaint was that there aren't really any nice rides around here that I could do after work or something. It'll always be a weekend trip, barring taking time off. You on the other hand have plenty of interesting German countryside to explore! And other countries yet!

The course I signed up for touts the fact that they take their students on the road for a good portion of the course... so I'll get some street experience there, which is good.

Bikes aren't the only things discouraged around here. As you pointed out elsewhere in the forum, there are few options for diesel cars. I would have considered it the last time I bought a car, but the premium to buy a VW TDI was too great vs the civic I ended up buying.

humble are/were you a rider? Not sure how well that CMF biker calendar would sell... haha


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## Sherlock

Barwelle said:


> I just signed up for motorcycle rider training in June. Hopefully I don't chicken out... (I did last year.)
> 
> Though this is more the bike that I would get. Check the link... what a great video. I'm a little jealous of you guys in Ontario and BC (And mode in DE) because you would have roads like this. It's mostly straight roads around here. Gotta go to the mountains.


Just curious why you like that bike?

And we don't really have many nice winding roads in Ontario either, at least not around the GTA. Mostly flat and straight. Although hopefully I'll be able to discover some nice roads for riding further north, though I'm sure there's nothing within an hour of where I live.


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## Barwelle

Sherlock,

I tend to prefer things that aren't flashy - I'm kind of conservative. I'm not an adrenaline junkie so I don't need a bike that goes fast... just fast enough to keep up with traffic. Those UJM bikes look... I donno, classic... to me. Which appeals to me more than a crotch rocket. I want a bike to take me places, not just to race around in. So I'm keeping my eyes out for something like a early 80's Honda CB or CM, or Suzuki GS450L or 550L... that style. I wish they still made more bikes of that style in that engine range... those bikes are 30 years old now!

There's a nice looking CB450 on kijiji near me... I'm resisting the urge to go take a look at it as my course is still 3 months away!

If I find myself getting serious about motorbiking, I'd get something like mode's F800GS that I could do some adventure touring with.

So let's turn your question around, what makes you lust after the Ninja?

Most of the time I've spent in Ontario has been in Muskoka so maybe my perception is a little off... There would be some nice riding up there though. I heard about Kawartha Lakes being similar. New England would be nice to tour around in too.


----------



## Sherlock

The GS450L seems to have been out of production since the 80s, so any example you find is likely to be pretty worn out. Possibly not an ideal bike for someone not yet familiar with the intricacies of maintaining and repairing bikes. I would look into the Suzuki GS500. It's still in production and you can find recent ones on the used market. The GS500F is the flashy version with the fairings, the GS500 and GS500E have the standard appearance that you like. But there are many more bikes that should fit your requirements nicely too. I'm not really lusting after the ninja 250, it's just that I think it's an ideal starter bike to learn on because it's slow enough to be forgiving if I make a mistake that would kill me on a supersport, but fast enough to be fun. I'll probably trade it in for something faster in one or two seasons. The bike I'm really lusting after is the BMW S1000rr. But I have to admit one of the reasons I like the Ninja is its sporty and aggressive appearance. People on the ninja 250 forums say they often get asked if it's a 600. I know before I became familiar with bikes, I would not have been able to tell the difference between a ninja 250 and a real supersport like a zx6r. Well maybe if they were side by side I would have noticed the supersport's thicker tires but if I just saw the 250 by itself I would not have guessed it was an entry level bike. After I take the msf course I'm gonna post my experiences here, you should too. I already bought a helmet, and got my course scheduled in a month. Then it's off to actually buy a bike.


----------



## w0nger

I have been riding for about 12 years...

Street:

'01 Honda F41
'03 Suzuki GSX-R750
'07 Suzuki GSX-R750
'08 Ducati 848

Track:

'03 Honda CBR600rr

In my 12 years, I've lost 3 friends and my baby cousin to motorcycle cycle riding. It is not a sport for the faint at heart. All of those who have been lost were, IMO, skilled and educated riders. Gone are the days when I thought I was invincible as a rider and now I consider myself to be an advocate for safety and responsible riding. ATTGATT (all the gear, all the time).

I'd rather sweat in my full leathers in +30 degree weather than have to get skin grafts or have broken bones... and that's just the tip of the iceberg... 

Ride with caution. Be responsible. Have fun, but most importantly, be safe.


----------



## carverman

Barwelle said:


> Sherlock,
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the time I've spent in Ontario has been in Muskoka so maybe my perception is a little off... I heard about Kawartha Lakes being similar. New England would be nice to tour around in too.


I've ridden up in the Kawartha Lakes area (Bobcaygeon) and the roads I rode on are not what you would call a challenging twisty motorcycle road, where you can test your man-machine skills.
Some of the roads in Eastern Ontario around Renfrew and Calabogie are nice twisty roads..I've ridden the Black Donald lake road between Calbogie and Griffith on Hwy 41 many times each 
year (when I was still riding), and to me that paved cottage road is the greatest..there are so many curves, that you are working the bike with countersteering often.

Another challenging road is a cottage road in Eastern Ontario called Desert Lake road that is Verona (hwy 38) and Sydneham (near Kingston) and ends before Hwy 401. 
Very challenging and twisty paved cottage road. 

In the US, the Kankamangus highway between Conway NH and US 93, is a nice twisty challenging road with a mountain peak (I think the highway was named after some Indian chief).
That was a great road. I was scraping the pegs and mufflers on that one and loved it so much, I went back on it in reverse.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=kanc...hrome.1.57j0l3.12405&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The most challenging road in the US is the " tail of the Dragon"...it's US129 in North Carolina/ Tennesee at Deal's Gap. 318 curves in 11 miles..now that is a motorcycle road.
But it's not for novices though., and you have to take it at slower speeds at first to get familiar with it. 
http://www.tailofthedragon.com/
and the video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDS4FfzXRzE

You will notice the rider is "hanging off" on the curves to shift the center of gravity while power is applied constantly and countersteering.


----------



## Daniel A.

Stay away from the CB450 it was never considered good even in its day.

Go late nineties and up , Suzuki GS 500 would be a good bike.
Handling and reliability have come a long way.


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## olivaw

Sherlock said:


> I'm not really lusting after the ninja 250, it's just that I think it's an ideal starter bike to learn on because it's slow enough to be forgiving if I make a mistake that would kill me on a supersport, but fast enough to be fun.


A sensible attitude. Ninja 250s are popular bikes for new riders because they are reliable, competent and predictable. You can often pick up a good used Ninja 250 for a great price, ride it for a period of time and sell it for most of what you paid. 



w0nger said:


> In my 12 years, I've lost 3 friends and my baby cousin to motorcycle cycle riding. It is not a sport for the faint at heart. All of those who have been lost were, IMO, skilled and educated riders. Gone are the days when I thought I was invincible as a rider and now I consider myself to be an advocate for safety and responsible riding. ATTGATT (all the gear, all the time).


Yeah, motorcycling is dangerous. You need skills, a safety attitude and the safety gear. I've witnessed a few motorcycle accidents. Some involved skilled and experienced riders but their skill couldn't change the laws of physics. In the end, they were saved by protective gear. 



Barwell said:


> Those UJM bikes look... I donno, classic... to me. Which appeals to me more than a crotch rocket


Have you looked at some of the modern classics? Triumph, Honda, Suzuki, Royal Enfield, HD and Motoguzzi make modern versions of classic bikes.


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## olivaw

carverman said:


> Very challenging and twisty paved cottage road. That was a great road. I was scraping the pegs and mufflers on that one and loved it so much, I went back on it in reverse.


You rode it in reverse? Now that's what I call mad riding skills. :biggrin:


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## carverman

olivaw said:


> A sensible attitude. Ninja 250s are popular bikes for new riders because they are reliable, competent and predictable. You can often pick up a good used Ninja 250 for a great price, ride it for a period of time and sell it for most of what you paid.
> 
> 
> Yeah, motorcycling is dangerous. You need skills, a safety attitude and the safety gear. I've witnessed a few motorcycle accidents. Some involved skilled and experienced riders but their skill couldn't change the laws of physics. In the end, they were saved by protective gear.
> 
> 
> Have you looked at some of the modern classics? Triumph, Honda, Suzuki, *Royal Enfield*, HD and Motoguzzi make modern versions of classic bikes.


The modern classic India made Royal Enfield is not the same Royal Enfield that was made in England many years ago. There was a dealer in Bells Corners that brought one in a few years ago..it was more of a retro novelty..there are much more torquey bikes out there. The Triumph Bonneville is a great classic though. The new ones are a lot different from the old
ones and very torquey...LUST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9RKfcBNO00


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## olivaw

carverman said:


> The modern classic India made Royal Enfield is not the same Royal Enfield that was made in England many years ago. There was a dealer in Bells Corners that brought one in a few years ago..it was more of a retro novelty..there are much more torquey bikes out there. The Triumph Bonneville is a great classic though. The new ones are a lot different from the old
> ones and very torquey...LUST!


I have a 2009 Bonneville T100 like the one pictured below. I love that bike and will probably ride it until I can no longer ride. I also have a Honda Sport Tourer but the Bonneville is my true love. That's probably a result of the fact that I wanted a Bonneville in the 70s but couldn't afford such a high end bike at the time. Nowadays they are pretty affordable. 








My friend bought one of the new Royal Enfields and he has been happy with it. He has other bikes for long distance riding but enjoys his RE for buzzing around town. Interestingly, with all the bikes he has owned from BMW to Harley, his all time favourite is his V-Strom 650.


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## m3s

olivaw said:


> Interestingly, with all the bikes he has owned from BMW to Harley, his all time favourite is his V-Strom 650.


I can see that. The VStorm is designed for the real world it's just not obvious or exciting for marketing. My choice would probably be a similar but newer Kawi Versys or the old classic Honda Transalp. This "adventure" market is blowing up lately, now with lots of even newer models out such as Triumph Tiger and Honda Crosstourer (suiting name). I went with the BMW for the deep discounts I got, but they do a lot of weird little things I just have to sort out myself. Unlike most "sport riders" I can understand cruisers and Harley's as well, I just hate to polish chrome. I just spray my bikes down and the flat black always looks like new, actually it looks better after a few scratches too 

I get the feeling most of the sport bikes you see on the road spend a lot of the time at Timmies or Starbucks (you know the ones in neon leathers with chicken strips on the tires) I would never buy a new sport bike, there are just so many old pristine ones for sale! My mechanic has a S1000RR I lust over while he fixes my car.. he never takes it on the street (says it's completely pointless and I agree) That bike is purely for the track. The Ninja 250 really looks like a poser bike to me.. I mean it has all the flash but really thin tires, suspension and brakes (I have nothing against the small engine or the style, just the odd combo here of a small engine with race ergos) DRZ 400 is a wildly popular small bike amongst beginners and experienced alike



carverman said:


> In the US, the Kankamangus highway between Conway NH and US 93, is a nice twisty challenging road with a mountain peak (I think the highway was named after some Indian chief).
> That was a great road. I was scraping the pegs and mufflers on that one and loved it so much, I went back on it in reverse.
> https://www.google.ca/search?q=kanc...hrome.1.57j0l3.12405&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Yup, I used to travel back and forth through New England a lot by bike. It was such an amazing discovery compared to trying everything in Canada (bus, train, plane, hwy 1 that goes around Maine...) The US has much smoother roads and their gas isn't taxed to pay for them either (win-win on a bike) I'm not a fan of the Dragon though, I hear it's really overcrowded and dangerous now due to the fame. Most of the scenic roads in NA are chock full of gargantuan mobile homes these days. I kind of really want the price of gas to go way up! (own oil stocks anyways)


----------



## carverman

olivaw said:


> You rode it in reverse? Now that's what I call mad riding skills. :biggrin:


Yes, jes call me Captain Kankamagus. :biggrin: Interesting though, some of the tight curves and these were hairpins going up the mountain, were even more challenging going down.


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## carverman

Nothing wrong with posin' at Timmies. :biggrin: I got a kick out of the HOG boys on the highway though. They tend to give each other the "hand shake" as they pass, but they won't do it for anyone on a UJM cruiser.

I know what you mean about the motor homes in the US..especially the Blue Ridge Parkway...nothing worse than getting stuck behind one of these behemoths and they don't pull over
either..well not supposed to..so they plod along at 25mph...and until you get a straight stretch, it's a boring ride.


----------



## Sherlock

M3S have you ever made a post explaining how you wound up in ze deutchland? I've been fantasizing about moving to Europe and would be interested in hearing about how you did it.


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## m3s

I'm only working here temporarily for a few years. I'm fantasizing about taking another year off to motorbike around Europe but I'm not sure that will make sense. Lots of Canadians and Americans who came here temporarily end up deciding they just have to stay for good. Western NA and all of SA still has lots of great motorbiking I want to cover though. And I plan to eventually live in none of the above mentioned continents. 

I also have lots of great European motorbiking pics to help you get your a$$ over here :tongue-new:


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## Sherlock

Well don't keep us in suspence let's see them! Motorbiking around europe sounds fun, and if someone is really adventurous they can even take on russia, probably some great nature to see in siberia (I mean the non-frozen part).


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## m3s

Some venture into the permafrost of Siberia in the summer, on old Transalps or new KTM 690s. We're having an unusually late "winter" in Europe and I narrowly escaped subzero temps and freezing rain heading south. Yesterday I found locals fishing on a bridge, err in the bridge? Maybe I'll see some palm trees today instead


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## carverman

Sherlock said:


> Well don't keep us in suspence let's see them! Motorbiking around europe sounds fun, and if someone is really adventurous they can even take on russia, probably some great nature to see in siberia (I mean the non-frozen part).


That F800 is a dual sport. Are the tires considered semi-off road and are they a bit noisier on the highway? What is the purpose of the USD fork? Is this similar to an
inverted fork? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_GS_parallel-twin


----------



## m3s

The original tires were considered to be 80/20 road/off and they were quiet. My new tires are 50/50 and they buzz similar to winter tires on your car (nothing like 20/80 off road tires). I haven't pushed them as hard as street tires but they're working better than expected on the street. They just need to get me to an off-road foray and then I'll probably go back to 80/20's, and there's not much off roading around Europe

The USD forks are mostly marketing flash imo. It reduces a bit of unsprung weight on the track, but it also makes your forks more vulnerable on the street. One ding on that bare metal will then rip the fork oil seals, and thanks them being upside-down now all the oil will leak out... The F800 has a guard for incoming rocks and I think most of the sport bikes have some protection as well, but it's something to watch out for. I guess dust covers just aren't cool anymore :tongue-new:


----------



## Barwelle

Sherlock, I have seen the GS500... Looks more like a sport bike to me than a cruiser or adventure bike, even the naked version. Agreed, it would be easier to maintain, or at least I'd spend less time fixing it! But, there is a great website for the Suzuki GS bikes from the early 80's called the GS resource. There is quite a community of owners of those bikes there so lots of support if I were to get an older GS and have problems with it. 

Daniel A, any opinion on something like a GS450L?

Olivaw, Honda has the 250 rebel and Suzuki the tu250, which is what I'm guessing you're talking about... I've ruled out 250s though because the majority of my riding would be on undivided highway. For what I have read, 250s like that would have a hard time keeping up with traffic on the highway... Which would cause problems I am sure. I wish they had slightly larger versions. You mention Triumph, I think their smallest modern bike is the T100? At 800 or 865cc and 450 lb dry... Maybe a bit too much for a beginner?


----------



## Barwelle

Olivaw I see now that you have the t100! You feel like it would be a good first bike? I also have only so much $ to spend...

Mode keep those pics coming!

Edit: I suppose Suzuki S40 is an option... It's a 650.


----------



## m3s

We had a Rebel to try on our parking lot MSF course, I found it very physically low and small (can't imagine on the highway!)

On this list of 10 great beginner bikes, it lists all the usual suspects we've discussed and they happen to have the Bonneville as #2 and DRZ #1. I've never ridden a Bonneville myself but I dig the classics.

For Barwelle a picture of a muddy tractor today (puts my clean GS to shame) and une vache Aubrac (I think)


----------



## olivaw

Barwelle, I have mixed feelings about the T100 as a first bike. It is detuned for smooth power deliver which makes it easy to ride and well behaved. However, it is still an 865cc motorcycle and it weighs 500 lbs. From experience, I can say that it can be challenging for a new rider. I gave up riding when my kids were born and took it up again after about 20 years. I went directly to the T100 and was surprised at how much the bike scared me. It wasn't that the bike was dangerous, it was that the bike was too much bike for someone who was as out of practice as I was. I managed to make all the mistakes too: riding too fast; locking up the back wheel while braking; going too hot into curves and almost running off the road; pulling muscles trying to prevent the bike from dropping when I stopped on a hill etc. You name it - I did it. The fact that I didn't crash probably boils down to dumb luck. 

That said, I love that bike and expect to have it for life. I also looked at the Suzuki S40, the Suzuki S50, the Harley 882 Sportster and the Harley 1200 Sportster. I'm glad I went with the Bonneville T100.

Since M3S is posting pics of his beautiful bike, here's one of mine that was taken a couple of years ago. (I can't post anything from today because the weather here isn't good enough for riding yet).


----------



## olivaw

mode3sour said:


> For Barwelle a picture of a muddy tractor today (puts my clean GS to shame) and une vache Aubrac (I think)


M3R, please stop posting pictures of your F800GS. It's too much temptation for me. :love-struck: Yesterday, after reading this thread, I stopped by a dealership to check out the new BMW F700GS (which has an 800c engine). Ended up loving it, as well as the F800GS and the Tiger 800. I'll never give up my Bonneville but I'd love to add a middleweight adventure bike to the stable. I'd just rather not spend the money right now. When it comes to motorcycles, my objectivity seems to go out the window :distress:

(I'm kidding of course - though the part about visiting the dealership is true. Please keep the pictures coming.)


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## humble_pie

mode3sour said:


>



i brought this gorgeous photo forward just to admire it once again.

the french national tourist service should buy this photograph. It's that good, or better.

the bike is what makes the picture. Without the motorbike, pic is just another romantic century-old grande allée on a misty day in the limousin, leading to some haunted grey stone tower where an imprisoned maiden gently weeps etc.

but the bike with its va-va-va-voom energy catapults this photo into the 21st century like a comet.


----------



## Jagas

olivaw said:


> M3R, please stop posting pictures of your F800GS. It's too much temptation for me. :love-struck: (I'm kidding of course - though the part about visiting the dealership is true. Please keep the pictures coming.)


Ditto! I have almost pulled the trigger on an F650 or F700GS many times in the past couple years but have managed to avoid the purchase so far. I have a KTM450EXC to keep me entertained in the meantime but it is a real PITA (literally) on the street.


----------



## carverman

humble_pie said:


> .
> 
> the bike is what makes the picture. Without the motorbike, pic is just another romantic century-old grande allée on a misty day in the limousin, leading to some haunted grey stone tower where an imprisoned maiden gently weeps etc.
> 
> *but the bike with its va-va-va-voom energy catapults this photo into the 21st century like a comet*.


Impressive vista for sure..but not exactly challenging.:biggrin: 
However, if you could do this lane at 180kph on a Suzuki Hayabusa..those sentinels on each side would certainly give you a euphoric rush! :biggrin:
Is that the French limousin cattle in your other picture?


----------



## m3s

Jagas said:


> Ditto! I have almost pulled the trigger on an F650 or F700GS many times in the past couple years but have managed to avoid the purchase so far. I have a KTM450EXC to keep me entertained in the meantime but it is a real PITA (literally) on the street.


I always thought I should have bought an EXC instead of a z750. Québec roads were brutal on street suspension and there were far more off-road trails to explore. The Triumph Tiger looks like a tough competitor for the F700GS (not sure how the price compares). Most say the Tiger's seat is much more comfortable but I'm fine on the 800. I'd probably ride a KTM 690 all day myself

Today I spotted the Pyrénées through dark cloud









And blue sky over the Med


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## Barwelle

mode3sour said:


> We had a Rebel to try on our parking lot MSF course, I found it very physically low and small (can't imagine on the highway!)
> 
> On this list of 10 great beginner bikes, it lists all the usual suspects we've discussed and they happen to have the Bonneville as #2 and DRZ #1. I've never ridden a Bonneville myself but I dig the classics.
> 
> For Barwelle a picture of a muddy tractor today (puts my clean GS to shame) and une vache Aubrac (I think)


Haha... nice. I can't decide whether to suggest you should get that thing dirty like that tractor once in a while, or that you should keep that baby clean!

I've never heard of an Aubrac... it's mostly angus, charolais, simmentals, and herefords around here.

Has anyone stopped to talk to you yet after noticing your Canada plates/stickers? Hope your trip is going well.


----------



## m3s

Barwelle said:


> Has anyone stopped to talk to you yet after noticing your Canada plates/stickers? Hope your trip is going well.


I've had to flex around some persistant weather.. and then thread the needle through some sand storms.. but it's been amazing! I had a few people chase me down before to ask if I knew Johnny from Calgary etc.. not much of a deal has been made about it, maybe some raised eyebrows and cell phone pics etc haha. Outside of the tourist spots people are pretty interested in any foreigner though





































I guess a post can only have 4 pics


----------



## RBull

I'm considering the purchase of a 2008 Honda VTX R 1300. Must be mid life crisis and my "fun car" isn't taking care of all of it. 

Haven't owned or ridden motorcycles for quite a few years and just looking something to cruise around on for some day trips on secondary roads etc. Reliability, overall balance of comfort/power/handling and future resale are priorities. 

Any comments?


----------



## Barwelle

Great pics, mode... in particular I like that last one. I'm convinced that if I go through with it, I have to get a gopro... no bones about it. Please share some more!

I see some riders ahead of you in the second one, I assumed you were travelling solo, did you have some company along the way?

RBull... I hardly have a respectable opinion as I don't have any experience aside from a 50cc scooter I rented on a Croatian island... but since no one else has commented, my comment (based on hours of perusing through online forums and reviews) is that the VTX1300 may be a bit powerful and heavy for someone who has been out of the game for a while... something to consider.


----------



## m3s

I don't usually enjoy riding with too many other bikes as it just becomes some kind of parade, but on this trip I found comfort in riding with others whenever possible.. A biker I met on the ferry ending up following me for a week, and most others days I followed another small group that I met at gas stations or at night etc.. I even paid a local to lead me across the desert and I never hire guides.. I've also met a few from forums who wrote me a lot of good local info, it's a very interesting community I think. It's always easy to meet bikers over coffee etc


----------



## Sherlock

Passed the MSF course. :triumphant: Now I gotta take some docs to the licencing office and get my M2. Then it's time to buy a bike.


----------



## RBull

Thanks for the comment. Yes, this is part of my consideration as it is a valid point. 



Barwelle said:


> Great pics, mode... in particular I like that last one. I'm convinced that if I go through with it, I have to get a gopro... no bones about it. Please share some more!
> 
> I see some riders ahead of you in the second one, I assumed you were travelling solo, did you have some company along the way?
> 
> RBull... I hardly have a respectable opinion as I don't have any experience aside from a 50cc scooter I rented on a Croatian island... but since no one else has commented, my comment (based on hours of perusing through online forums and reviews) is that the VTX1300 may be a bit powerful and heavy for someone who has been out of the game for a while... something to consider.


----------



## 1sImage

2005 ZX6-RR Ninja #452/500


----------



## m3s

So what's different about the RR? I had a 2005 z750, same tail end as yours I think with a street-tuned ZX9R engine. Great bike. The suspension was crap but the insurance was cheap and it resold in hours for the price I paid


----------



## 1sImage

mode3sour said:


> So what's different about the RR? I had a 2005 z750, same tail end as yours I think with a street-tuned ZX9R engine. Great bike. The suspension was crap but the insurance was cheap and it resold in hours for the price I paid


Normally the ZX6R comes as a 636cc for that year, but in order to compete in the 600cc class, Kawasaki needed to make a production 600. So Kawi made 1000 RR's 500 for track use and 500 for the street. 
It's actually a 599cc, there's a few diff things that also differ such as the gearing, suspension, Higher compression, higher red line. There's a few other little tweeks and little things.


----------



## Barwelle

Sherlock said:


> Passed the MSF course. :triumphant: Now I gotta take some docs to the licencing office and get my M2. Then it's time to buy a bike.


How goes the search?


----------



## Sherlock

Barwelle said:


> How goes the search?


Bought a Ninja. Been riding around the GTA for the past few weeks.


----------



## praire_guy

Daniel A. said:


> Insurance rates for motorcycles are a complete joke, 80% of all accidents are the fault of the car.
> Your insurance carrier gets reimbursed from the car drivers insurance after an accident so why are the rates for bikes so high.
> 
> Another point my Goldwing won't hold a candle to a 600 class bike for acceleration or top speed but due to engine size being the guild I pay more.
> 
> Bike insurance is nothing but a money grab, in the early seventies I could insure a bike far cheaper than a car today the car is cheaper.
> The insurance companies talk about risk and the cost bike versus car in an accident and yes your chances of walking away after a collision with a car are rare.
> Thankfully I've never had a collision in 42 years of riding but had many very close calls.
> 
> What really bothers me is that the insurance company will always collect from the car at fault remember 80% of the time your carrier is not paying anything from the bike insurance.
> 
> When people get a drivers license for cars it should be mandatory that they understand what a bike is capable of for braking.
> Having cars following close behind when I know my bike can out stop the car makes me a target.
> 
> I trained riders for many years.



You are kidding right? 

Most, not all, but most motorcycle drivers are complete assholes. 

Do you think insurance companies decided to purposely screw bike drivers, or is hmmm maybe you are in lots of accidents that are YOUR fault, and you cost the system more money?

Bikers either drive too fast, drive in between cars, and cause other drivers to collide with each other. 

This is based on my experience in winnipeg, more so with younger drivers that drive other than Harley's. 

Ridiculous to suggest that cars are responsible for 80 percent of accidents. Take off your helmit and give your head a shake.


----------



## Jagas

m3s said:


> I always thought I should have bought an EXC instead of a z750. Québec roads were brutal on street suspension and there were far more off-road trails to explore. The Triumph Tiger looks like a tough competitor for the F700GS (not sure how the price compares). Most say the Tiger's seat is much more comfortable but I'm fine on the 800. I'd probably ride a KTM 690 all day myself


I sort of took your advice and picked up a shiny new KTM 690 a few weeks ago.
I grabbed a Duke though, not the Enduro. This bike is far too much fun. I kept the EXC for fun in the dirt.


----------



## Barwelle

Sherlock said:


> Bought a Ninja. Been riding around the GTA for the past few weeks.


Good to hear you found something, hope it's going well so far!



Barwelle said:


> I just signed up for motorcycle rider training in June. Hopefully I don't chicken out... (I did last year.)


I did it! Just this past weekend. Was a lot of fun. Well worth the expense, I'd say. 

Now for a bike. And gear. I'm actually thinking that a dual sport would be better for me than the UJMs I was talking about upthread. Thinking of a KLR650.


----------



## liquidfinance

praire_guy said:


> You are kidding right?
> 
> Most, not all, but most motorcycle drivers are complete assholes.
> 
> Do you think insurance companies decided to purposely screw bike drivers, or is hmmm maybe you are in lots of accidents that are YOUR fault, and you cost the system more money?
> 
> Bikers either drive too fast, drive in between cars, and cause other drivers to collide with each other.
> 
> This is based on my experience in winnipeg, more so with younger drivers that drive other than Harley's.
> 
> Ridiculous to suggest that cars are responsible for 80 percent of accidents. Take off your helmit and give your head a shake.




One part in particular. The drive between cars is NOTHING at all to do with being a bad rider. It's a cultural thing and one that North America in general doesn't seem to accept. In the UK you are taught to "Filter" and on your motorcycle test even expected to if the situation allows. In Europe it is accepted that you will filter and generally cars will open up to allow you through. 

My insurance on my Yamaha R6 in the UK was approx $300 annual now i'm paying $1700 as my first year riding in Canada. Insurance is a joke period. 

I do agree though from what I have seen myself that a lot of riders are generally idiots. Not sure if that's because a bike is simply seen as a toy here. 

Biker cause other driver to collide.. What kind of comment is that? Any facts? Just put the news on any evening and it seems car drivers are quite capable of colliding with each other without any assistance from bike riders.


----------



## liquidfinance

Barwelle said:


> Good to hear you found something, hope it's going well so far!
> 
> 
> 
> I did it! Just this past weekend. Was a lot of fun. Well worth the expense, I'd say.
> 
> Now for a bike. And gear. I'm actually thinking that a dual sport would be better for me than the UJMs I was talking about upthread. Thinking of a KLR650.



Enjoy.  Now we need some better weather. Good choice of ride Sherlock. 
Barwelle. I was looking at a KLR before settling with my GSX650F. I am consider dual sport at some point though. Tough choices. There are just too many bikes that I like.


----------



## cainvest

liquidfinance said:


> One part in particular. The drive between cars is NOTHING at all to do with being a bad rider. It's a cultural thing and one that North America in general doesn't seem to accept.


Much more than cultural, I believe it is illegal everywhere in Canada .... so illegal = bad rider.


----------



## Barwelle

liquid.... don't feel the troll... :rolleyes2:

Yea there are so many options out there, all with their pros and cons. And lots of conflicting info and biased opinions on forums so it's difficult to know what's what when you're digging for details! But I'm sure it'll all work out.


----------



## cainvest

Barwelle said:


> liquid.... don't feel the troll... :rolleyes2:


Are you calling me a troll?


----------



## Barwelle

cainvest said:


> Are you calling me a troll?


Nope, not you.

Though i have to make a counterpoint. It being illegal doesn't automatically make it bad. It is legal in other places. And not just countries like India where it would seem like there aren't any rules of the road. Filtering is legal in California, for example.


----------



## cainvest

Barwelle said:


> Though i have to make a counterpoint. It being illegal doesn't automatically make it bad. It is legal in other places. And not just countries like India where it would seem like there aren't any rules of the road. Filtering is legal in California, for example.


I would generally disagree with the illegal not automatcally making it bad part. Also, breaking the rules of the road leads to a bad rep which I find motorcycling gets enough of without trying to make it worse. Personally, I find lane spliting (especially given the state of average driver/rider in this country) is just too dangerous and don't do it myself.


----------



## Barwelle

Hmm. OK, let's differentiate something here.

a) There's filtering... which means riding between the lanes when traffic is stopped, or moving very slowly, say at a red light or during a traffic jam.

b) Then there is the kind of lane splitting that happens at higher speeds.

I would never do b). That's bad riding, period. Speeds are too fast to react to danger, drivers' brains are in cruising mode so not really paying attention.

But I think a) is safe enough that it should be allowed. Here's my logic: Motorcycles generally accelerate (and brake) faster than the average vehicle. If a motorbike is stuck in traffic and not allowed to filter, that bike is contributing nearly as much to the congestion because they are taking the place of a small car. But if the bike is allowed to filter, they can get to the front of the line and pull away ahead of the pack once the light is green or the obstruction is passed. And since they pull ahead faster than the other vehicles, they're not really slowing anyone else down, while getting ahead themselves.

There is danger, yes... someone could open their door just as the bike is rolling by, or someone could jump into the next lane without checking their mirrors and blind spots. But these are things that shouldn't be done in the middle of a road anyway, and if it does, it shouldn't be too serious since the bike should be going pretty slow and vehicles would be barely moving if at all.

prairie_guy was probably talking about b) type situations. But a) type situations, which I am sure liquidfinance was referring to, can't be that "bad". I'd support it being legalized, with limitations of course.


----------



## cainvest

I would agree (a) is much, much safer than (b) but I still wouldn't do either of them. I guess it would depend on the road somewhat, some/most "interstate" type roads seem to be better suited for slow speed lane spliting, as in they appear wider. I wouldn't be against the law allowing it unless the insurance claims associated with it caused the already inflated rates to rise. Honestly, Id rather take a 30 km detour on a twisty road than ride a the slab anyday ... not always possible though.


----------



## m3s

I agree with liquidfinance. It is cultural. Canadians seem to have some kind of biased perception against motorcyclists and our insurance is based on discriminatory demographics. Car drivers saying motorcyclists are defiant because they break the law in Canada are hilariously hypocritical.. considering the vast majority of Canadian car drivers break the laws all the time (speeding, rolling stops etc etc) Our laws are unreasonably strict and the police just ignore and enforce them as they see fit.

In Europe people commonly move over for bikes on both sides of the road as soon as you approach them... Even in Africa people signaled when I can or cannot safely pass on a bike as a common courtesy... in Canada people typically have no awareness of me following on a bike in the first place and then get extremely annoyed or feel gravely insulted for some reason if I pass them (as portrayed by a few posters above, and by most Canadians feeling offended by flashing brights) Our wide and straight roads and ridiculously "safe" rules (stop signs everywhere instead of yields etc) are not as engaging and results in more inattentive mindless lethargic drivers (not to mention the waste of gas and brakes on stop signs) People in Canada stress out when a bicycle or motorbike is beside them in their massive lanes because they suddenly have to wake up, pay attention and make sure they drive straight etc.... I never lane split in Canada because the drivers are very unpredictable and also hostile towards lane splitters (some people will cut you off on purpose). In Asia or India of course nobody bats and eye as traffic could never function with that population otherwise. I actually much prefer the extreme Asian/Indian way but I think Europe has the most balanced driving culture.

The demographics-based insurance is Canada is so out of whack you can pay more to insure a Civic than a Corvette. Penalizing someone because they drive the same vehicle as a bunch of teenaged hooligans is blatant discrimination. It seems that feminists conveniently turn a blind eye to blatant sexism when it benefits them financially... and imagine if we charged Asian immigrants more because they haven't adapted to our drowsy driving culture? Of course that would be racist. They might as well base the price on sexual orientation since they base it on marital status as well.... It's the same for motorbikes.. they are charged more based on demographics (and probably also exploiting the concept that motorbikes are considered a luxury toy in Canada) A motorbike with bright neon plastics will cost more to insure than an actual performance bike... I've been quoted double the value of the bike for 1 year of full insurance in Canada and it's now over $1000 for 1 year registration in Quebec... They are penalizing the motorcyclists for the lethargic car driving attitude (many cars turn left in front of motorbikes and cut them off by accident, costing insurance $$$) I can insure my brand new BMW motorbike in Europe for a small fraction of the cost because it's based on my clean driving history and the actual performance capabilities of my bike as it should.

Motorcycling is not a crime. Driving an SUV alone for no good reason should be.


----------



## m3s

Jagas said:


> I sort of took your advice and picked up a shiny new KTM 690 a few weeks ago.
> I grabbed a Duke though, not the Enduro. This bike is far too much fun. I kept the EXC for fun in the dirt.


:encouragement: A few KTM bikes like that would make up my dream team. I'm not sure if I'll ever take the plunge and go Orange though



Barwelle said:


> Now for a bike. And gear. I'm actually thinking that a dual sport would be better for me than the UJMs I was talking about upthread. Thinking of a KLR650.


The KLR is a well proven sensible bike :encouragement: I think someone's username here is even KLR650 haha

I buy most of my gear from motorcycle superstore online using 10% coupon codes from another forum (people post their codes when they receive the gear) $50 enduro gloves are about the exact same thing as $20 mechanix gloves to be honest and I usually wear jeans with work boots haha. I never skimp on the helmet for comfort and noise etc, but outgoing models are great deals


----------



## m3s

IMO individuals who have any at-fault history should bear the high insurance fees, not because prairie_guy and most of society perceive some group as "most, not all, but most as complete assholes" I can understand where he's coming from, but it's still wrong. If people were held more accountable for their actions.. behaviours would change. Any car driver who cuts off a motorbike can call their insurance company and essentially forget it ever happened. So long as they were married in a Christian church and drive a beige 4-door Corolla, they'd still pay a fraction of what any diligent young male biker pays



praire_guy said:


> You are kidding right?
> 
> Most, not all, but most motorcycle drivers are complete assholes.


I looked it up, Europe has anti-discrimination legislation that prevents insurers from differentiating individual premiums and benefits on the grounds of discrimination... In Europe my insurance asked for my insurance history (100% clean) and HP of the bike year/make/model and that was all. In Canada they ask 100 discriminatory questions such as age, sex, health, marital status, not-at-fault history etc etc Not to mention the colour of vehicle, number of doors etc This is the business of assessing risk, but it's still highly discriminatory and easily biased as we all know stats are.


----------



## liquidfinance

Barwelle said:


> Hmm. OK, let's differentiate something here.
> 
> a) There's filtering... which means riding between the lanes when traffic is stopped, or moving very slowly, say at a red light or during a traffic jam.
> 
> b) Then there is the kind of lane splitting that happens at higher speeds.
> 
> I would never do b). That's bad riding, period. Speeds are too fast to react to danger, drivers' brains are in cruising mode so not really paying attention.
> 
> But I think a) is safe enough that it should be allowed. Here's my logic: Motorcycles generally accelerate (and brake) faster than the average vehicle. If a motorbike is stuck in traffic and not allowed to filter, that bike is contributing nearly as much to the congestion because they are taking the place of a small car. But if the bike is allowed to filter, they can get to the front of the line and pull away ahead of the pack once the light is green or the obstruction is passed. And since they pull ahead faster than the other vehicles, they're not really slowing anyone else down, while getting ahead themselves.
> 
> There is danger, yes... someone could open their door just as the bike is rolling by, or someone could jump into the next lane without checking their mirrors and blind spots. But these are things that shouldn't be done in the middle of a road anyway, and if it does, it shouldn't be too serious since the bike should be going pretty slow and vehicles would be barely moving if at all.
> 
> prairie_guy was probably talking about b) type situations. But a) type situations, which I am sure liquidfinance was referring to, can't be that "bad". I'd support it being legalized, with limitations of course.



You could also argue A) from a safety point of view as well. Why sit at the back of the pack to risk being rear ended when you can filter between stationary traffic and no longer have the risk of a rear end incident.


----------



## Barwelle

cainvest said:


> I would agree (a) is much, much safer than (b) but I still wouldn't do either of them. I guess it would depend on the road somewhat, some/most "interstate" type roads seem to be better suited for slow speed lane spliting, as in they appear wider. I wouldn't be against the law allowing it unless the insurance claims associated with it caused the already inflated rates to rise. Honestly, Id rather take a 30 km detour on a twisty road than ride a the slab anyday ... not always possible though.


Well, it's settled then. We agree to disagree! 

So, it sounds like you're a rider, what do you ride?



m3s said:


> The KLR is a well proven sensible bike :encouragement: I think someone's username here is even KLR650 haha
> 
> I buy most of my gear from motorcycle superstore online using 10% coupon codes from another forum (people post their codes when they receive the gear) $50 enduro gloves are about the exact same thing as $20 mechanix gloves to be honest and I usually wear jeans with work boots haha. I never skimp on the helmet for comfort and noise etc, but outgoing models are great deals


Yea, there is someone with that handle... should I see if they want to donate their bike to a good cause? hehe. I like the idea of buying online but then I'm not sure about sizing. Do you find that sizes are consistent across all brands or do you generally stick to a certain brand?

I got a pile of coupons from the course so I'll probably be fine buying in-store to start with anyways.



liquidfinance said:


> You could also argue A) from a safety point of view as well. Why sit at the back of the pack to risk being rear ended when you can filter between stationary traffic and no longer have the risk of a rear end incident.


That's a good point too.


----------



## m3s

Barwelle said:


> Here's my logic: Motorcycles generally accelerate (and brake) faster than the average vehicle. If a motorbike is stuck in traffic and not allowed to filter, that bike is contributing nearly as much to the congestion because they are taking the place of a small car.


I've actually seen far more dangerous situations passing _legally_ than filtering... It's actually much safer and respectful to pass a lot of vehicles while they are stopped or moving slow.... Whenever you can pass _legally_, humans tend to speed up and spread out... Bikes easily maintain a higher speed around corners and turns besides the acceleration etc and anyone with this common sense would prefer they just pass.

I don't know why NA people insist on having faster traffic stay behind them, or get offended when someone filters by them. It's nothing personal. This typical mutual animosity and disrespect in NA is exactly why cars think "most" bikers are a$$holes, because after being blocked a few times they tend to become one. In reality most of them are just like any other human being you know... 



Barwelle said:


> I like the idea of buying online but then I'm not sure about sizing. Do you find that sizes are consistent across all brands or do you generally stick to a certain brand? I got a pile of coupons from the course so I'll probably be fine buying in-store to start with anyways.


I suppose for the first time you are better buy in person. I found that stores don't always stock the model/brand/colour/size I want and have to order anyways. I do buy some gear in person if it happens to be on sale and it doesn't inconvenience me (don't live in big towns etc so the gas/time adds up) I can usually get the size correct from measuring and reading reviews, but quality is impossible to judge online



Barwelle said:


> There is danger, yes...


There is danger in stocks as well, but we don't all buy Canada Savings Bonds and GICs right :tongue-new:


----------



## cainvest

Barwelle said:


> So, it sounds like you're a rider, what do you ride?


Depends on the day but it'll be either an R1, Fz1 or a DRZ400.


----------



## praire_guy

m3s said:


> IMO individuals who have any at-fault history should bear the high insurance fees, not because prairie_guy and most of society perceive some group as "most, not all, but most as complete assholes" I can understand where he's coming from, but it's still wrong. If people were held more accountable for their actions.. behaviours would change. Any car driver who cuts off a motorbike can call their insurance company and essentially forget it ever happened. So long as they were married in a Christian church and drive a beige 4-door Corolla, they'd still pay a fraction of what any diligent young male biker pays
> 
> 
> 
> I looked it up, Europe has anti-discrimination legislation that prevents insurers from differentiating individual premiums and benefits on the grounds of discrimination... In Europe my insurance asked for my insurance history (100% clean) and HP of the bike year/make/model and that was all. In Canada they ask 100 discriminatory questions such as age, sex, health, marital status, not-at-fault history etc etc Not to mention the colour of vehicle, number of doors etc This is the business of assessing risk, but it's still highly discriminatory and easily biased as we all know stats are.


Once again, most, not all bike drivers are assholes, and deserve higher insurance rates. 

Drive safer.


----------



## Charlie

praire_guy said:


> Once again, most, not all bike drivers are assholes, and deserve higher insurance rates.
> 
> Drive safer.


If you rode a bike for any period of time you might conclude that most, but possibly not all drivers are assholes.

I sometimes think new drivers should have to ride a bike for a period of time to clue them in on road awareness and safety....

...and insurance rates are a function of injury risk. Costs more to fix a person then a car...and that includes passengers. My annual bike insurance was more then the cost of my bike....and if you want theft insurance it's really crazy....(FWIW BC used to have 'non discriminatory' insurance where age and gender did not matter -- don't know if that's still true).


----------



## liquidfinance

Charlie said:


> If you rode a bike for any period of time you might conclude that most, but possibly not all drivers are assholes.
> 
> I sometimes think new drivers should have to ride a bike for a period of time to clue them in on road awareness and safety....


:encouragement:

The things you see! It really becomes apparent how bad a persons driving becomes once they become distracted with the Radio, Phone etc.

I agree about the bike awareness but the same could be said for trucks as well. Generally drivers don't have enough appreciation for them and the space on the road they need. There just isn't enough awareness of bikes in general here. Radio Stations and TV littered with commercials and I'm not sure I've heard anything about bike safety. That goes for warning car drivers of bikes and also reminding bikers of the dangers which we face. 

I would like to see/ hear more like this.

A couple of vids from the UK government.


----------



## liquidfinance

I often feel I need to get some lights like this on my bike. Especially the "New Dad" :biggrin:


----------



## m3s

Charlie said:


> ...and insurance rates are a function of injury risk. Costs more to fix a person then a car...and that includes passengers. My annual bike insurance was more then the cost of my bike....and if you want theft insurance it's really crazy....(FWIW BC used to have 'non discriminatory' insurance where age and gender did not matter -- don't know if that's still true).


I don't think that explains it. I've compared my rates with others and age/sex/marital status/vehicle appearance seem to be much bigger factors in Canada. How come in Europe it costs less to insure my new bike than my old car? For 1, my insurance is to cover the other person and you can physically hurt and do far more damage with a 2000kg car than a 200kg motorbike. Nobody sues themselves or motorbikes for loss of wages and mental distress and ghost neck pains... I'm pretty sure cars generate the bulk of these claims which they blame for the higher rates. We even have free healthcare and ambulances etc in Canada.... what exactly is my bike insurance covering that's so much more expensive for me? Also 2, most people ride their bike far less than drive their car (especially in Canada). The only reason bike insurance rates are so high in Canada is because it's beneficial for insurance companies. Besides the discriminatory rates, the no-fault insurance in complete BS as well.



Charlie said:


> I sometimes think new drivers should have to ride a bike for a period of time to clue them in on road awareness and safety....


I agree


----------



## m3s

Great article about filtering on Canadian Biker

"The ODOT report proposed that, for lane sharing, “the greatest issue is driver expectation,” where a driver does not expect to be sharing lanes with a motorcycle. To counter this problem, Surrey County Council in the UK places signs at intersections where motorcyclists like to “filter” through stationary traffic, warning drivers to expect bikes alongside.
The reports also cite the numerous benefits of lane sharing, both for traffic planners and bikers. Allowing bikes to “filter” between lanes of stationary or slow-moving traffic encourages more riders on the road, because using a motorcycle this way optimizes commuting time. That means fewer idling vehicles and reduced congestion."

"And consider this: the London Ambulance Service uses motorcycles to get paramedics to emergency situations because it’s the fastest way through traffic. Volunteer motorcyclists are also used extensively in the UK to move time-sensitive shipments—such as live organs for transplant—because it’s the fastest, most reliable method. Buy only because they can lane split."



Barwelle said:


> I'm actually thinking that a dual sport would be better for me than the UJMs I was talking about upthread. Thinking of a KLR650.


When I was a teen I dreamt of buying a KLR650 (the previous model barely changed from 1987-2007!) I always liked the versatility and bang for the buck. On my bike forum the running gag for any cheap comment is "you must be a KLR rider" but of course the joke's on us BMW types :tongue-new: My past few trips I've actually realized the kind of riding I enjoy most would be best on a smaller 400-650 size (but of course you have to get there on a long road..) The 800GS is just such a well rounded bike I'm thinking of importing 2 of them :biggrin:


----------



## Barwelle

Good link. What I like out of that article is this: "The report uses NHTSA’s numbers to show that bikers are significantly less likely to die in rear-end crashes in California, where lane sharing is legal, than in otherwise comparable states where it’s not. Guderian’s conclusion: if properly executed, lane sharing is safer for bikers than staying in lane."

I actually just picked up a KLR on Thursday! One of the new ones, it's a 2010. That's why I bought it... versatility and bang for the buck.

I'll try to attach a picture...









I thought the BMWs were supposed to be pretty well set up out of the factory and shouldn't require much in the way of mods, and that was why they are more expensive. But I was reading one thread, I think on advrider, where the guy bought a BMW, then proceeded to change out seemingly every part on the thing. Crazy.


----------



## m3s

Nice bike!

Looks like it even came with some good add-ons? (looks like SW Motech crash bars same brand as mine haha) That's a perfect bike to start on! The used Japanese bikes are usually great deals and easy to maintain



Barwelle said:


> I thought the BMWs were supposed to be pretty well set up out of the factory and shouldn't require much in the way of mods, and that was why they are more expensive. But I was reading one thread, I think on advrider, where the guy bought a BMW, then proceeded to change out seemingly every part on the thing. Crazy.


Some people just buy the wrong bike for their intent, and others just need a niche setup. The BMWs have long service intervals and setup to work on/off road efficiently, but then some people want more motocross or race performance instead. There's always a trade-off with performance, reliability, comfort, cost etc... I think the ABS, ASC, computers, and alarms are just useless bulk.. but with the discount I get the rest of the bike is setup great


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## Ag Driver

Bumpity bump bump.

I've been riding for about 10 years, since I was 16. I used to own an 86 Virago XJ750, and sold it about 5 years back. I'm looking at buying another bike again. I found my old bike, but a touch better. An 86 Virago XV1100. I must have a soft spot for Virago's as it was my first bike. This is a want vs a need, and a bit of an impromptu purchase...but for $1500, how can I say no?

I called TD, RidersPlus, RBC, Intact, AllState -- all of which were in the $2300 range for insurance. Desjardin and The Personal were the only ones with "reasonable" insurance at about the ~$750 mark. Thought I am working during the summer this year, I might just buy it and park it until September when I get back from work -- register and insure it then.


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## RBull

I have a 2008 Honda vtx1300R. 

I have had a bike license for 40 years but was absent from riding for about 22 years up until 2 years ago. My insurance is currently with RBC- $228 however i do not bother with collision since value is only 5K or so. Not sure how much that would be. My previous insurer for 2 years was Nordique @ $335.

Added a few pictures. First one is with OE exhaust, before engine paint and with shield on.


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## liquidfinance

My new ride for 2015

Triumph Tiger 800 XCX - Insurance is just over $1k So not too bad really.


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## cainvest

liquidfinance said:


> My new ride for 2015
> 
> Triumph Tiger 800 XCX - Insurance is just over $1k So not too bad really.
> 
> View attachment 4418


Nice ... would like to hear your thoughts on it after you log some miles. Are you planning any off road excursions?


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## m3s

Motorcycle insurance really depends on the province. I'm pretty sure they take advantage of the fact that most motorcycles in Canada are a hobby, and thus they can charge a premium.

I just got $250 inc tax with TD on a 2014 F800GS. Full coverage, $500 deductible ($1000 hardly made a difference) $1mil liability, alumni discount, multi product discount, +10 years experience, no claims, no demerit points (I've learned to avoid high traffic routes for safety and for the cops-on-quota bs) Now the kicker is Quebec registration was $575 (double for a sport bike) Funny thing is I pass sport bikes around here.. the GS loves the frost heaves and pot holes 

The Tiger 800 is like a 800GS clone with a better street engine (3 cyl?) I got the GS directly from Berlin at military discount though and I like the 2 cyl for off roading (just put some knobby tires on!) 2 of my fav bikes.

All kinds of trails and logging roads around my house. I think a steering damper would be a good purchase next.


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## Daniel A.

I've been riding for 44 years, My 1985 Goldwing LTD costs me 740.00 per years for full insurance with the collector plate.

Motorcycle insurance is a ripoff in most provinces, in the event of an accident most are caused by cars your insurance carrier will recover their costs from the at fault party's insurance.


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## Sandra

that's probably very cool
but as a car driver, I'm so afraid of bikes on the high ways!


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## Charlie

Daniel A. said:


> Motorcycle insurance is a ripoff in most provinces, in the event of an accident most are caused by cars your insurance carrier will recover their costs from the at fault party's insurance.


My info is way out of date, but when I took my mc license many moons ago, I recall reading that most motorcycle accidents are single vehicle....and your insurance covers injuries to your passengers...

theft insurance was crazy expensive for older bikes....really only worth it if you had to for financing etc.


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## ohsmarketing

I am crazy about bike riding .I have collection of many bikes and they are highly expensive.


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## Sasquatch

I've ridden motorcycles for almost 45 years until 2 years ago when I decided to give it up.
There was no one particular reason for quitting, I just lost my passion for riding and didn't care if I ever rode again.

I thought I had made a mistake when I sold my last bike and that I would miss riding like crazy.
I haven't missed it at all which really surprises me, no regrets when I see someone on a 650 V-Strom going by, which was my last bike. I am amazing myself.

I guess the time was right for me to pack it in and I was lucky enough to never have had a serious accident/collision, apart from some low speed lay downs with minimal damage.

My longest and best ride was a cross Canada trip ( Atlantic to Pacific and back) with 2 friends in 2007 for a glorious 4 weeks, I'll never forget it.

However, one door closes and 2 new ones open up


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## Vicjai

ohsmarketing said:


> I am crazy about bike riding .I have collection of many bikes and they are highly expensive.


such as?each:


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## 30seconds

Turning 25 next May, so I am looking to pick up a bike this fall when I can hopefully get a pretty good deal from some one trying to open up garage space. It's amazing how much insurance drops in the GTA once you turn 25.


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## realestateongabriola

I prefer bicycles.They are beneficial to health also.so go for ride you will enjoy it.


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