# Window and door replacement



## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

Hello all
I am considering replacing our windows and doors. A rather expensive proposition, thus the posting on the frugality forum.
My main concerns are two at the moment. First of all, although I searched a lot, i haven’t really received a definite answer about whether I will realise significant savings with the replacement. I am worried that they will not make a big difference, since the walls are not insulated. If i can be assured that there would be a return on the investment, i wouldn’t hesitate. Return also in the sense of whether they would increase the selling price in the future.
The current windows are ancient ones. A combination of the original 1930’s wooden windows on the inside and metal ones from the 60’s or 70’s on the outside. Thus two windows, each opening separately. I wonder if because they are two, with the air trapped between them, whether they would offer any efficiency?

the second question is regarding any companies someone might suggest. I am in Montréal. I have a quote from Verdun windows and doors and todaya representative from Factory Direct came. I will get the quote later.

if it is simply a question of aesthetics I can live easily with the old ones.

there was an earlier thread from 2017 on here about replacing windows and doors. I read it with great interest. But at the end it was suggested that i create a new thread rather than renew the older one
Thanks Bob


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Bobcajun said:


> Hello all
> I am considering replacing our windows and doors. A rather expensive proposition, thus the posting on the frugality forum.
> My main concerns are two at the moment. First of all, although I searched a lot, i haven’t really received a definite answer about whether I will realise significant savings with the replacement. I am worried that they will not make a big difference, since the walls are not insulated. If i can be assured that there would be a return on the investment, i wouldn’t hesitate. Return also in the sense of whether they would increase the selling price in the future.
> The current windows are ancient ones. A combination of the original 1930’s wooden windows on the inside and metal ones from the 60’s or 70’s on the outside. Thus two windows, each opening separately. I wonder if because they are two, with the air trapped between them, whether they would offer any efficiency?
> ...


Did you start with the Canada Greener Homes Grant? Canada Greener Homes Grant

You can get reimbursed for a professional to do an assessment, as well as reimbursement for the windows (up to $5k), but it's first come, first served.

That aside, most windows/doors usually should be replaced every 25 years or so. Anyone buying a house with windows done in the 60s or 70s is going to look for a reduced price because they will have to replace the windows. 

While you're at it, you might as well get your insulation checked, you're just throwing money away with heating and cooling costs if your house isn't well insulated.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

New to me in 2003 house built in 1967 with few energy upgrades.
Put 8" worth of insulation in attic first 4" over original 4" .
Insulated basement next full header space filled, and basement exterior walls 6" at top 4' and 4" below to the floor

High efficiency furnace to replace 1967 one stage fan and one speed blower one.

I had circa 1967 aluminum frame inner and outer windows up to 2008. Had blower door test first, so some costs rebated on the better second test after windows done. Replaced with pvc frame 2 pane vac sealed windows. Did 4 smaller basement windows myself. Ordered the doors and replaced wooden exterior doors with steel skin foam filled doors, with a sealed window inset into the front door. Not a huge energy saver, but a start. Next step was replace second floor siding and put 2" rigid foam under new siding. 

All of this has made the house more energy efficient


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

Thanks for the replies. The question, however, relates only to the windows. I am not planning on insulating my house. The salesman tells me that there will be a 40 per cent saving on heating. Just with the windows. He says that despite the fact that the walls are not insulated even more heat escapes through the windows. I suppose also the question of resale value, aside from the question of energy efficiency comes into it. 
Thanks bob


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I can only tell you that about 3 years ago I bought windows from Home Depot. "Platinum" model. They are already falling apart. Not recommended.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

Spudd said:


> I can only tell you that about 3 years ago I bought windows from Home Depot. "Platinum" model. They are already falling apart. Not recommended.


Thanks Spudd good to know that. It really is a jungle, though isn’t it?


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I , being the engineer, found a spreadsheet on the web, that some building department one of the US states used in reviewing plans for heat loss/gain. Presumes is for a detached house. Could be modded for a row house with some coding work in the excel formulas.

Into it you enter the area of house per floor, and sum of external wall area of each floor, wall thickness and R value and sum of window area of each floor, and U value for the windows. U is like 1/R. 

Then insulation in attic, then how many feet of basement sticks above grade.The last bit is because below grade only ever gets so hot/cold, while above grade 

Then the tightness of house in terms of air changes per hour. Desired internal temp, and coldest night outside temp sets the minimum size of furnace, in terms of heat loss in BTU/hr.

Reverse the temperatures and it sets the minimum BTU/hr for an air conditioner for heat gain. 

I fiddled and found that heat wise best bang for the buck was the attic, then the basement header, and since finishing the basement the treatment for those exterior walls.

Then how good a window in terms of U value, and how well it seals, which can affect air changes per hour. 

Have a wood burning fire place - running numbers made a good case to have a lock top chimney damper installed, to cut hot air escaping with literal chimney effect breezing warm air past the old steel damper at top of the fire box.

The windows made a difference but cost a fair bit more than the heat issue, but U value and other loses like first floor with brick veneer showed that double glaze and pvc was enough, and triple glaze and fibreglass frames were not worth it for this house with other loses is had. 

We are not cold enough here to justify a storm door/screen door. Live on a minor arterial roadm so in summer noise of road not worth it to open fornt door and slider part of a screen door. 

But less heat flow in a steel clad foam core door made a good upgrade from the old wood doors, and they seal up drafts better as well. 
. . 
Second floor 2" rigid was worth it - only added $1200 to a 16K job to redo siding, new eave trough and fully siding on a new back yard shed. Taped seams cut air infiltration.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

Bobcajun said:


> Thanks for the replies. The question, however, relates only to the windows. I am not planning on insulating my house. The salesman tells me that there will be a 40 per cent saving on heating. Just with the windows. He says that despite the fact that the walls are not insulated even more heat escapes through the windows. I suppose also the question of resale value, aside from the question of energy efficiency comes into it.


As a rule, assume salesmen lie. All the time. About everything.

No way you're going to save 40% on heating unless you can feel cold wind through existing windows. Especially on a poorly insulated house. If you have *major* air leaks, then 40% might be plausible. But then you'd have a huge heating bill right now and still feel cold because of all the drafts.

If you consider resale value then the move might make more sense for such ancient windows. Although who knows in the current market, people seem willing to buy anything at any price.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Hey Bob! 

Thanks for your post. There will be cost savings in upgrading your doors and windows. However, the initial outlay will determine how long it is until you see that return. It is all dependent on the current energy efficiency compared to cost of doing so. @Ponderling has given you some leads on how to do the calculation if you are so willing. By having two sets of windows you have some measure of reduced heat loss through convection as you have indicated air is trapped. Consider your entire house as one large building envelope in which air leakage needs to be controlled to improve both energy efficiency and comfort. 

It is also difficult to determine the impact this upgrade would have on resale. This relates back to how long you plan to stay in the home. Without knowing more about the condition of the windows and doors it is also difficult to weigh in. When I bought my mid 50s home I changed the doors right away. I still have single pane metal windows. They do not leak and I had more important priorities suchs as bathroom, kitchen, wahter heater and furnace. My next upgrade will be to add insulation to the attic. Since windows are pricy they will likely be my last change. I find that when you start changing windows you may be faced with having to change more of the exterior finish. That may not be the case in your situation but I have seen others deciding t change their windows having to change the siding or stucco in the process. In extreme circumstances they end up doing the soffit, fascia and eaves as well. Sometimes they convinced by sales people and contractors to do so. Other times it is their own impulsiveness.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

Thanks very much for your replies. Very helpful information. I never expected that 40 percent was reasonable. Although that is what the salesman says, I know it couldn<t be that. but, I would be interested in knowing what kind of percentage i might get, to know whether it is worth doing. It is interesting that Londoncalling still has single pane windows and still haven't changed them, although you have changed many other things. That makes me think that you think that there is not a heck of a lot of value in changing the windows. Also, as you mention, the situation when actually selling the house is a real unknown. Prices could be way up by that time. Regarding the condition, all of the windows are in pretty good shape. I don't think there would be much else to do in changing the windows. We have a brick duplex in Montreal and it is pretty straight forward. At least none of my neighbours seem to have had any extra trouble. As I mentionned earlier, the windows don't really bother me, the change would only beause it makes sense financially, either in significantly higher heating efficiency or when it is time to sell. But, I suppose at the time of sale, you could also negotiate the windows. You might want to kick yourself that you didn't enjoy them up until that time, though. But, it is a significant outlay: $70,000 for the whole duplex. I can think of a lot of other things that I would rather do with that money!
And thank you also, Ponderling. I am always amazed at your walks that pay you. Finding things and putting them back into working order. I will try to configure the tool you added, even though I am not much of an engineer, and when I take things apart they sometimes don't get back together again. But, I will have a look at it and see where it leads me. Right now, after airing this here, I am inclining to let it go.
thanks bob


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

I just had an idea for a way to approach this. A few of my neighbours have had their windows and doors replaced and I will ask them what their heating bills are 
Bob


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Bobcajun said:


> I just had an idea for a way to approach this. A few of my neighbours have had their windows and doors replaced and I will ask them what their heating bills are
> Bob


This is a great idea and will likely give you the best indication as to whether or not it is worth it. Getting back to post 9 we do add an indoor winter window kit to the giant 5 X 8 picture window in the living room. Although I am not sure it greatly reduces our heating costs it does increase the comfort level. We also purchased thermal insulated curtains for the living room a few years ago. They were a bit pricy but definitely cheaper than new windows. They work well in the summer to keep the heat out as well. Here on the prairies we typically experience an annual temperature range form -35 to +35.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Bobcajun said:


> I just had an idea for a way to approach this. A few of my neighbours have had their windows and doors replaced and I will ask them what their heating bills are
> Bob


Honestly I wouldn't expect accurate info from most people plus it is a hard thing to track with weather changing each year.

Overall most windows replacements do not have a good ROI for energy savings. Air sealing around windows if you have leaks will help a fair bit and is cost effective.

Currently in my area I can get back between $225-350 per window from provincial/federal rebates so next year I might do an upgrade on select windows.

Edit: Just to add ... I should have detailed info on the window energy savings in two years time.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

Thanks Caininvest

I believe you are right about not getting accurate information from neighbours. Some might not want to say. And others may not have tracked the savings closely. My idea was to get an idea of how much several of them pay for heating in a year. Most of the houses are pretty much the same. With that I can compare my own cost of heating and after considering the variables, see how close I am to them. I think that could work as a rough gauge for determining whether I would save much with the installation. 
Thanks again Bob


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Bobcajun said:


> With that I can compare my own cost of heating and after considering the variables, see how close I am to them. I think that could work as a rough gauge for determining whether I would save much with the installation.


Worthwhile to get a general idea but my guess would be that the savings would be hidden in the variables.

If you dig a little you should be able to find actual data on energy savings from windows like this, https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/manuf_res/windows/ES_Windows_Cost_Energy_Savings.pdf

TLDR-> The highest in their list shows about $440/year (heating and cooling) savings going from single pane to basic energy star rated windows.


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## Bobcajun (May 15, 2018)

I don’t know how you were able to find that information. I have been looking for awhile and never found anything as clear as this! In my case it looks like at the most, i might save three or four hundred dollars. Not a lot when you compare it to the seventy thousand for the windows. Thanks again for going to the trouble of looking that up
Bobcajun


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

I replaced leaky aluminum sliders with triple pane windows 10 years ago. I did the work myself but it was only 3 upstairs and 4 basement windows. Heating costs dropped from about $550 a year to a little under $500. So the savings may be negligible and payback may never happen. If you think about it, windows might only make up 10% of the total wall area so regardless of how efficient new windows might be you're only improving 10% of the exterior walls. Increasing attic insulation for a few hundred will probably save a lot more.

That being said, on a -35 winter day it's a lot more comfortable with a good triple pane than with a old aluminum slider. I did it for comfort, the saving were a bonus.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

HappilyRetired said:


> That being said, on a -35 winter day it's a lot more comfortable with a good triple pane than with a old aluminum slider. I did it for comfort, the saving were a bonus.


Comfort may get better, depends on if the walls are insulated otherwise they'll be cold as well. Aluminum is the worst for conducting cold/heat, I would get rid of those before anything else.


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