# Forest lands



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> Also, I am writing this now because of a recent post by someone asking about where to invest $1 million. Tygrus suggested farmland. That resonated with me. I could see doing that. But his post was but a cry in the wilderness, not taken seriously. Maybe with that kind of thinking, tygrus has not reached $10 million in net worth yet. And he may never. But then, maybe he was joking. In Canada, we have long recognized that the only value in fertile soils such as Lulu Island (if you know where I mean), the Fraser Valley, the Okanagan, the Golden Horsehoe, etc., is to pave those places over and erect condos, shopping malls, etc. Raw farmland is worthless if all it is doing is sitting there producing fruit and veggies. We can buy that stuff from Mexico, Chile, etc.
> 
> .


It was not taken seriously because that's not investing. That's speculating. Sure, start a farm and start farming but buy land and sit on it hoping it'll be worth more tomorrow is very far away from investing. You buy things that make stuff. That's investing.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

You should also look into letting your forest sit and getting carbon credits for it. Of course, you'll have to guarantee those offsets for 100 years, which can be tricky, but there are ways to still harvest trees from forests while getting carbon credits. Take a look at this for starters: http://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/blog/another-tool-in-nccs-arsenal.html and then http://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/.../featured-projects/darkwoods/carbon-faqs.html for more detail.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

none said:


> It was not taken seriously because that's not investing. That's speculating. Sure, start a farm and start farming but buy land and sit on it hoping it'll be worth more tomorrow is very far away from investing. You buy things that make stuff. That's investing.


I dont think I ever said anywhere my net worth is $10 million or ever going to be but I own it to farm it not to speculate on the land price.

From my point of view its the ultimate asset. It spins out 15% ROI in crops, while at the same time appreciates at CPI per year and is paid down by 3.5% per year, making the overall return north of 20%. Then I take part of the excess funds and even leverage some of my equity and invest in stocks. Best part is it only takes 2 months to run the business. When I am too old to farm it, it will be rented out and we will take a 6 figure income stream from that.

For the OP, cutting old growth forest would be a tough call, but I have known people who bought land in the Peace River area and cleared the scrub, sold it and then broke the land and rented it out and made a nice return.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> One thing I never seem to see in my limited time on this forum is anyone mentioning investing in forest lands ... I feel more comfort in owning the freehold with the actual timber on it.
> 
> It is oft said hereabouts that one must recognize one's own investing style. Mine is slothful. I do not have to read and understand all kinds of complex market analyses to walk out on the land and check on the health of my investment. I understand silviculture. I have taken the time to take some course ... I can do my own timber cruise with reasonable accuracy, although no one would rely on my results if they were buying the logging rights. In sum, I get some real joy walking among the trees and assessing such things as where to thin ...
> 
> Back to my topic, my timber holdings are modest, but include a few nice stands of old growth on the BC south coast. Some is oceanfront ... I have done little harvesting ... For the most part, all I have done is to take out the windfalls and standing dead every few years, which is sufficient to cover logging costs, property taxes, logging tax and leave a bit of surplus ... My timber is mostly western red cedar and Douglas fir. There is some balsam and hemlock and a couple of alder stands, for which there is not always much market. I probably won't sell any trees this year. They'll be bigger next year.




this entire text is dynamite. There are phrases in there that are more huggable than trees.

do you actually own Douglas firs mukhang pera? i have never known anyone who owned a mature Douglas fir. That is, someone who possesses a priceless tree on his property that is 150 years old. A tree that stands 10 metres in circumference. A noble tree that towers 100 metres into the sky, with coarse bark that sheds regularly & timbers that will last outdoors for 300 years ... i think i am falling in love ...

i'm especially impressed by someone who says his investing style is slothful. Being slothful about one's wealth in valuable trees is so cool it makes prime minister justin climate change look like a warty old frog by comparison.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

wondering where is Daddybucks? i'm asking because Daddy has carpentered on special construction projects that use rare douglas fir beams, the kind you can't buy any more. He knows how valuable those timbers are.

i know one heritage architect in montreal who would weep tears upon reading a thread like this one. Nearly all old montreal housing was framed in douglas fir beams. Not 6 x 6 beams, certainly not 2 x 6 beams crossed together, but giant solid 10 x 10 beams. These were not even knotted grade. A hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, they burned the knotted douglas fir for firewood or used it for railroad ties. The grade used for building construction was clear, no knots, a quality that can never be found anywhere these days.

it's common here now to save all old douglas fir beams out of buildings that are being wrecked. Some contractors are using hemlock instead, it's more easily obtained, but the fir beams are stronger.

to come to my point at last, would you have to ship your douglas fir logs to asia? aren't there enough heritage architects in canada by now who will use douglas fir beams - & pay the price - if they are available?


EDIT: of course i don't mean fell them all. Perhaps just one tree, for a very special commissioned house or building that would show off its wood quality.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

I don't think anyone can "own" a tree or even land for that matter. We can have the priviledge of being stewards of them and making sure they are treated and used responsibly. Being from the east coast we can't compare the big trees out west with our little "shrubs" although there are a few BIG oaks on my property here that in my estimation are over 100 years old and kind of humble you.
I've been to "Cathedral Grove" on Vancouver Island several times and although I am not very religious, every walk through there has changed something in me that I can't explain. It's simply beyond words.
Sorry for hijacking this thread but I couldn't stop my hands on the keyboard !


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

As a carpenter and instructor of the carpentry trade I take keen interest in this thread. Many of us that are still in the trade lament the construction of yesteryear. I have had many a conversation about how we export our quality wood(not the wondrous towers of timber you speak of but the "quality" farmed timber we used to see commercially 25-30 years ago) overseas, while we farm trees no bigger than a 2 X 4 these days for our own nation. I personally know only a handful of carpenters proficient at "timber" framing or "post and beam" construction. They have either honed their craft in the province of BC or worked on historic restoration projects in Atlantic Canada. I am sure there are many others in La Belle Province and possibly elsewhere. About a dozen years ago or more I had the opportunity to work on a giant timber arch beam construction project (industrial) where we built an addition to a storage building built in the late 60s. Alas this is the closest I have come to such craft. I am not sure where this thread fits into the world of investing but I find it wonderful to read just the same. Not to veer to far off topic but we had a conversation today at my office about the craftsmen of long ago who had to craft their tools and tool boxes by hand. We are working at building a display area to showcase these miraculous creations in an effort to instill a sense of pride in our future craftsmen who source their tools from the "Ronas" and "Home Depots of the world". I own shares in a company called Western Forest Products. Nothing they do would equate to what you hold. I would love to see you post some pics of the trees on your land as well as the giant D Fir you mentioned previously. I think it would provide the forum with a whole new perspective. Not sure you will find the answer to your original query but I will watch with great interest none the less.

Cheers


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## Prospector (Jul 25, 2014)

If you guys haven't already seen it, this may bring you great joy... http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...anese-wood-joinery-is-an-act-of-art_lifestyle


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

londoncalling said:


> ... we had a conversation today at my office about the craftsmen of long ago who had to craft their tools and tool boxes by hand. We are working at building a display area to showcase these miraculous creations in an effort to instill a sense of pride in our future craftsmen who source their tools from the "Ronas" and "Home Depots of the world"




london everywhere i see a growing interest in the trades, tools & arts of the past. People seem to understand that what they're saving is irreplaceable. It's like saving a language from extinction.

wondering if you've heard of Guedelon castle in france? archaeologists are re-constructing this 13th century stone castle using nothing but period tools that they are forging themselves. They're even smelting their own steel from iron ore. All the castle building materials also date back to the late middle ages.

it's one of those sumptuous BBC films that only the english know how to create.

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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

I totally agree. Our mass produced world is sometimes so sterile. 

If the OP decided to cut and create some sort of heirloom creation with the wood, I think thats a noble cause. If it gets cut and sent to china to make ikea type furniture, then its not.

I sort of imagine that 40 acres that he has being transformed into an incredible spot. I could see cutting down a few trees and building something with amazing architecture that only BC has.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Here in Ontario the old farmer's rule of woodlot management was that you could take out a cord of wood per acre per year and do nothing but good. It is necessary to thin out the trees to allow for new growth. This is much too labor intensive these days, they prefer to clear cut but if you want to do the work you could derive a steady income. Hardwood firewood is over $200 a cord.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Looks like second growth. Where is it exactly?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Prospector said:


> If you guys haven't already seen it, this may bring you great joy... http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...anese-wood-joinery-is-an-act-of-art_lifestyle


Thanks for sharing and no I wasn't one of the previous 6411 views. 
Very interesting to me indeed.

Cheers


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> london everywhere i see a growing interest in the trades, tools & arts of the past. People seem to understand that what they're saving is irreplaceable. It's like saving a language from extinction.
> 
> wondering if you've heard of Guedelon castle in france? archaeologists are re-constructing this 13th century stone castle using nothing but period tools that they are forging themselves. They're even smelting their own steel from iron ore. All the castle building materials also date back to the late middle ages.
> 
> ...


What a hot bed of culture this thread has become. I will watch this tonight for the sheer enjoyment. I love the BBC programming as it provides a nice contrast to our North American pop culture "reality TV" world that I loathe. I am so grateful for youtube, Netflix and the like as it seems most of the viewers are also enjoying the independence of unplugging from their cable box. I am familiar with Ruth Peter and Chris and have watched such programs as Monastery farm and Victorian Pharmacy. I was unaware of the project but am enamored with the idea. Perhaps one day in retirement I can partake in such an activity.

Cheers


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Thanks for sharing the pics of your property and to add my 2 cents I found your reply to location humorous but then again I love sarcasm. The description as to location was more than enough to give me an great idea of where you are located with out the need to Google street view your location. I have yet to head to the isles but have worked with numerous individuals that inhabit the southern islands you mention. As enjoyable as this thread has been for me I hope someone will be able to provide answers to your original post.

Cheers


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## Prospector (Jul 25, 2014)

londoncalling said:


> Thanks for sharing and no I wasn't one of the previous 6411 views.
> Very interesting to me indeed.
> 
> Cheers


Sorry - it had been posted a few times to woodworking forums I am part of, so to me, its an old video.

I don't own any woodlots, but I have considered it. Being in Ontario, I have looked closely at mature maple stands. My thinking being that the annual thinning for firewood would mean the lot could sustain itself. On top of that running a sugarbush could provide an interesting hobby income. Certainly not a get rich scheme, but at least enough to make a slight income with only a few weeks of effort. I've come back to the idea multiple times, but never pulled the trigger (story of my life).

My inlaws have a cottage lease in Algonquin Park. They took out the lease when Gramps came back from WW2 as a young husband, built a shell of a cottage, and never improved the land - not even a dock. That is fortunate since the park is working to push out leaseholders. What is interesting though is the trees. The site was mostly clearcut when they took out their lease, with the exception of a stand of 6 or so pines that were left for some reason by the loggers. Today those trees have a girth that would take 3 people to reach around. The park continues to eye those trees for logging, and the family continues to lease the land to protect the trees. Its a standoff that can't last forever, and either way the park is making its money - but then Algonquin is a logging preserve. Its what the park is there for.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Prospector said:


> If you guys haven't already seen it, this may bring you great joy... http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...anese-wood-joinery-is-an-act-of-art_lifestyle




prospector your japanese video is a piece of zen art. It's lovely, many thankx.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## Prospector (Jul 25, 2014)

Mukhang pera said:


> Interesting your story about Algonquin Park. I used to go there as a kid. Mostly to camp and fish on Lake Opeongo. I was aware back then of some cottage leases. I did not realize that any still existed. Can they be retained in perpetuity, if some family member continues to pay the rent?


No. And today I would be very hesitant to buy out a lease in the park. Our lease was originally sold to Gramps by a lumber company. Eventually their land ownership was transferred to the MNR since the land was within the park. We were one of about a dozen cottages on our lake. Today 2 cottages and a lodge remain.

Our lease comes up for renewal every 5 years or so. Every time it comes up, the lease is increased in lock-step with property taxes in adjoining municipalities. To that end, our lease matches property taxes on a 4 acre waterfront cottage (which is what we have) in Muskoka. The difference between a muskoka waterfront cottage and our camp is stark though. We have no plumbing, no electric, no dock, no road, no boats, etc. 

In addition to the high expense, we are very restricted by rules within the park. We cannot make ANY improvement or repair to the cottage without permission and inspections from MNR. When we have issues with leaning trees over the cottage, we have to have an arborist from the park give the OK for the trees to be cut. The restrictions are very tight.

Going up on a weekend, we can sit on our deck and see the lake through the trees. It takes a trained eye to know where to look in order to spot us. If it is windy, we keep a canoe ready at the shore to go and do rescues for the rental company on the beach (record for our family so far is 8 rescues in a day - the cottage next door cheats though, they use a powerboat so they beat us to some of them). Often paddlers in rental boats are immigrants or Torontonians who have never canoed before and since the park cut back on rangers, its us or no one to perform canoe rescues. If it is calm we might do loon calls and wolf howls to watch how paddlers on the lake react. Good fun.

I could go on, but have a read here instead - cottages in PP's aren't popular with everyone: http://www.thestar.com/news/insight...ark_is_no_place_for_a_cottage_or_is_it_1.html


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

prospector i'm curious. If no road in, how do you get in?

time was, cuzzins had a lakeside property at the bottom of a steep mountainside. The angle down to the lake was so steep, one could say it was a wooded cliff. At the bottom was a boathouse with a studio apartment above the boat shelter. 

there was a public ie gummint-built "road" which in reality was a rough narrow stony track around the mountain. It ended high above the boathouse. One could park one's car at road end, as long as seasonal washouts hadn't damaged the road too badly.

from the parking spot, a path switchbacked down to the boathouse. In summer, supplies had to be backpacked up & down. In the wintertime the cuzzins hauled provisions on a little sled (quite unbelievabliy, the boathouse apartment was winterized, had its own generator)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^


those logs sure do look pretty. I'm just surprised to see them so short, they look like each one might be no more than 3 metres, maybe 4 at the most. Yet surely they all came from just one very tall tree?

historically, tall douglas fir timbers were prized for their height as well as their strength. They were used in harsh environments that demanded this strength plus water-resistance. As masts for sailing ships. As vertical central support beams in housing or factory construction.

i believe the chateau montebello - originally built as one of the CPR's network of grand hotels - is the world's biggest log cabin style building made of douglas fir. The interior picture below is dim, but all those colossal posts & beams are douglas fir. I don't know how much they were stained, but in addition they would have darkened with age.

the exterior douglas logs seem to have been painted though.

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## Prospector (Jul 25, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> prospector i'm curious. If no road in, how do you get in?
> 
> time was, cuzzins had a lakeside property at the bottom of a steep mountainside. The angle down to the lake was so steep, one could say it was a wooded cliff. At the bottom was a boathouse with a studio apartment above the boat shelter.
> 
> ...


With the right vehicle, we can drive most of the way in and hike the rest. Otherwise its canoe access only.


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## Hawkdog (Oct 26, 2012)

Have you looked into Black Walnut as a cash crop?

http://www.profitableplantsdigest.com/growing-walnut-trees-for-profit/


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

> those logs sure do look pretty. I'm just surprised to see them so short, they look like each one might be no more than 3 metres, maybe 4 at the most. Yet surely they all came from just one very tall tree?


 I'm afraid that the age of long timbers for construction is gonzo. Those 3-4 meter logs will be milled and fabricated into laminated beams (GluLam). How would you begin to transport a single 60 foot log from the boonies (away from tidewater), to an urban construction site? Laminated beam construction makes much more sense.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## bflannel (Apr 21, 2013)

Preferred export length is 11.4 meters. That length is preferred because it is the standard shipping container length. 12.5's or 41's are preferred in the bush for almost all species because that log can get recut into various lengths once at the mill and moves as one piece which reduces handling time and cost. 

Those look like nice logs too! Send me a PM if you want to discuss anything. I may be able to help in the future.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it's a matter of perspective, as you say. The first photo was unclear whether the top log is 2 short logs, each 3-4 metres, butted up against each other. Or whether the top log is only one log, but perspective has slightly blurred its middle section.









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the 2nd photo shows clearly that the logs are still long, at 41 feet. I'm glad they're leaving your property with at least half their majestic height intact.

as bflannel says, they are very nice-looking logs indeed. Amazingly, i see hardly any knots or cracks, the timber looks first rate. Love that pale pink colour, like sea shells.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it's the same size as the first rendition. To post pictures to 3rd parties, one needs to store them on a 3rd party website, not one's own computer which can only deliver these little thumbnails to a website like this one. 

the standard photo storage sites are flickr & picasa, someone here is using imgur, there are others. One posts one's image to one of these websites, then downloads from there to this forum.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> I would appreciate if anyone here can tell me if the one attached here is larger.
> 
> 
> View attachment 9202


When I click on this one the larger image appears on my screen at about 9"x6.5".
The easlier version appeared at about 7x5 inches on my screen so yes it worked.

(to h_p, to see the larger image you click on the thumbnail above)


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> Thank you mrPPincer. That made my crest perk up a bit!



i can click it up to about 9 x 7 on my screen, although i don't know how it will come out here

i think some aspects might depend on the browser a viewer is using?

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