# Low cost smart phones



## james4beach

I'm not a fan of smart phones. Standard flip phones have suited my needs until now. I like that they're cheap (typically I've paid less than $50) because occasionally I will drop them, they get soaked in snow, or rough treatment while traveling. I hate the idea of buying a several hundred $ phone because then I will have to treat it like a delicate piece of high-tech equipment, and that's not how I want to use a mobile phone.

I also find it insulting that I'm supposed to pay something like $500 for a piece of equipment that is essential a marketing tool to extract private information from me and re-sell it to Google, Apple, and the government. They should be paying me for this privilege or giving the equipment away for free.

The point is, I'll only buy a smart phone if I can find a cheap one. The only things I want to be able to do are:


 Standard phone things, SMS texts
 Maps to help me navigate my location (can't assume I have wi-fi)
 Run apps like transit/buses and something to message internationally
 I will _not_ be running any social networking, multimedia, games, banking, or heavy web browsing

Any suggestions? I'm thinking along the lines of an older generation, unpopular and outdated Android phone. Or perhaps a second hand phone.

People seem to be constantly buying new smart phones. So what happens to the old ones? If kids are throwing their old smart phones into the garbage, surely someone can sell me one for $50 instead of disposing of it. Surely there must be a good secondary market for that unpopular and "uncool" equipment.


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## james4beach

For example, on craigslist I was able to find a Samsung Galaxy S II (used) for $40. Someone who recently bought an iphone.

Could something like that suit my needs? I realize I have to be careful which provider it's locked to.

Are there any reputable retailers where I can buy these kinds of older model phones from, instead of craigslist/kijiji? There's got to be a ton of them floating around somewhere, that haven't been sold, and since there's zero demand for them the prices should be ultra cheap.


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## Just a Guy

The rugby is a pretty tough phone, and less than $100 with a plan. It's built to mil-spec so it can take a beating.


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## fatcat

this is the best value smart phone you can buy, the moto-g (first generation, the second gen has a 5" screen for about twice the money)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_G

in canada, on telus prepaid, you can get it outright for $99
i used to own it and it's an absolutely amazing little phone for the money

don't know where it can be bought in the usa but it's worth a hard look


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## Parkuser

For exactly the same reason I’ve bought an android smart phone on the Amazon, made by a company called Blu, for CAD 97 after taxes. 
http://www.amazon.ca/Advance-Unlocked-Dual-Phone-Black/dp/B00GXHPN1U
It is unlocked (you can use it with any telco) and has two SIMs. It works here and in Europe too, i.e. everywhere I go. WiFi works everywhere, naturally. On the SIM#1 I got Koodo prepaid: I pay $15 monthly to keep the number and buy minutes and data when needed. I do not use a cell phone much, so it is essentially $15/month. On the SIM#2 I had T-mobile in the US and some European telco in Europe. Everything worked like a charm. The only problem with this phone is, the display is not visible very well in a direct light outside. So you have to be in a shadow if you want to do stuff. But for the price, I am happy.


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## FrugalTrader

We purchased the Moto G last year and it is very good value. I believe it's around $150 and very low cost to unlock to any carrier.


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## cainvest

As mentioned, Moto G (1st or 2nd gen) depending on price/features you want. There is also the Moto E which is slightly cheaper for an "unlocked buy" but might not be compared to the 1st Gen Moto G on some carrier deals. Used is likely your best bet providing you don't end up with a stolen phone.


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## NorthernRaven

I'm an Apple sort of person, but I don't use a phone enough to justify the cost of an iPhone. I'm another who would recommend the Moto G - Google (before they sold Motorola) seemed to be trying to get the best midrange phone they could on the market at a low cost, to steer the Android community, rather than maximize profits. It is a wonderful, clean-Android little phone .

The original G (4.5" screen) is sold by Telus/Koodo and Virgin (they had the original exclusive), at least while their supplies last. Their subsidized price is $150 (Moto's nominal Canadian retail MSRP is $250), and you can get it "free" on contract, and unlocked . There is a second generation G with 5" screen and a few other changes - the list price hasn't changed, but I don't think any carriers have picked it up, so you'd have to get it unlocked at Staples or someplace (not FutureShop/Bestbuy) for at best around $225. There's also a slightly more expensive LTE version (exclusive to Rogers/Fido), but it sounds like you don't need the high-speed 4G data.

You can get a 10% "bring your own phone" discount from most carriers, so make sure getting their locked, subsidized phone really is worth it. On a $50/month plan, for instance, 10% off is $120 for 2-years, which isn't that far off the $150 "free on contract" price. Unfortunately, Motorola has conspired with the Canadian carriers for exclusives, and has prevented Amazon.ca from carrying the phones in Canada (and blocked Amazon.com from shipping to Canada) to protect the high MSRP for places like Staples after the exclusive period. So the US $179 price for the G, which should have been around $200 on Amazon.ca, has that $250 list price, and you have to rely on very limited market pressure to occasionally get it down into the $225 range. In the UK and major eurozone countries (Germany, France, Italy, Spain) you can buy G unlocked from the local Amazon for pretty much the straight currency exchange cost of US $179. Canada, no. 

The carrier subsidy may in some cases be a good deal (I got my G for $50 after a $50-off sale got doubled by a FutureShop promotion the day I happened to buy it), but Moto basically hoses Canadians in the unlocked retail chain. Also, if you buy unlocked, the original G Moto distributes in Canada is the 16GB version, while the 2nd gen is only 8GB (as are the carrier versions).

Also, at least for the original first-gen G, be aware that there are two variants. The "US GSM" includes the "AWS" frequencies (used by T-mobile in the US), is sold by the second-tier Wind/Mobilicity/Videotron carriers for their AWS networks, works on all the major Canadian networks as well, and is what is sold unlocked by Moto in Canada. The one you get from Telus/Koodo/Virgin is the "International GSM" version, and does _not_ support the AWS frequencies, so you can't use it on Wind/Mobilicity/Videotron. The international version _does_ support a couple frequencies that the US one doesn't, which was handy when I took my Koodo-bought G over to the UK and was able to pop in a local SIM card for my stay, but would have been a problem if I wanted to go to the US and use a ROAM Mobility SIM (they package T-mobile service). Just something to be aware of.

For used, you can always try the kijiji/eBay sort of places.


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## james4beach

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. That Moto G sounds appealing, but...

I did a bit of an impulse buy from craigslist, and I'm now the proud owner of a Samsung Galaxy S2 (cost me $40). I bought it because it looked like it was in pretty good shape, screen looks perfect and price seemed good.

I've already been able to upgrade the OS to a current Android version. What I haven't figured out yet is whether this is locked to its carrier, as it's branded T-Mobile (I'm in the US).


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## brad

The problem in the US is that if you have a smart phone, it's almost impossible to avoid having a data plan. That's the reason I don't have a smart phone: most of my cellphone use is in the US, and if you have an iPhone or Android device the major carriers detect it and require you to have a data plan. I don't need data so I don't have a data plan here in Canada, and don't want to pay for one if I'm roaming. There are workarounds if you use one of the smaller budget-rate carriers, but I don't think there's a way to avoid if if you're using AT&T, Verizon, etc.


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I've already been able to upgrade the OS to a current Android version. What I haven't figured out yet is whether this is locked to its carrier, as it's branded T-Mobile (I'm in the US).


Borrow someomes micro sim card from another carrier and pop it in your phone, if it works you're unlocked and good to go with that carrier. Also check to see how much battery life the phone has, leave it on without charging. Older phones may only have a fraction of their rated capacity depending on how much they've been used.


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## m3s

james4beach said:


> The only things I want to be able to do are:
> 
> Standard phone things, SMS texts
> Maps to help me navigate my location (can't assume I have wi-fi)
> Run apps like transit/buses and something to message internationally
> I will _not_ be running any social networking, multimedia, games, banking, or heavy web browsing



Buy a used smartphone on Kijiji/Craigslist that is UNLOCKED. You will get much better value this way (it's a buyer's market by far..)
Find a PREPAID sim card with BYOD discount from one of the discount carriers that suits your situation
Download apps on WiFi that store transit/bus routes on the phone itself
Download maps as you need them from OSM, Google, or a variety of other free skins using one of those source maps

I don't need much data and I DO use lots of social media and apps on the go. At work I am busy and have internet, at home I have WiFi, anywhere I visit I have WiFi, people can share hotspot etc. The only place I need data is when driving or travelling. You can download Google maps ahead of time for "offline use" but there are many better apps tailored to where/what exactly you will be doing. You just need lots of GB for storage depending how much you travel.

Because I am away for months at a time, I have a Koodoo prepaid plan where the package "add-ons" don't expire per month!.. I can just top it up and use it when I get back.. The cheapest plans in Canada would cost me $500-750 more per year regardless how much I used it. I can freeze PREPAID or adjust it as need be, and depending where I am I can grab another PREPAID sim for the country I'm in (any of which is usually far cheaper than Canada)

I don't know if Canada does this yet, but most transit companies have apps with all their schedules and maps included. Many transit companies now have free WiFi or the option to upgrade your ticket or pay a fee for WiFi. Most airports around the world have free WiFi. Most restaurants, coffee shops, hotels etc etc around the world have free WiFi now. If not, a few times an employee kindly shared their hotspot when in a pinch. No need for $$ plans.


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## carverman

james4beach said:


> T
> I did a bit of an impulse buy from craigslist, and I'm now the proud owner of a Samsung Galaxy S2 (cost me $40). I bought it because it looked like it was in pretty good shape, screen looks perfect and price seemed good.
> 
> I've already been able to upgrade the OS to a current Android version. *What I haven't figured out yet is whether this is locked to its carrier, as it's branded T-Mobile (I'm in the US).*


Even if it is branded T-Mobile, did you buy it UNLOCKED? if not, then you need to find the unlock code..otherwise, your SIM won't work. 

Ok..there are many components to a iphone...one is your personal SIM (subscriber identification module) that your service provider sets up for you *AND the iphones own unique ID called the IMEI.* 

Here is a comparable one on Ebay:



> Condition:	Used : Split the cost with friends Seller Notes:	“Charger not included.”
> Brand: Samsung Style:	Bar Model:Samsung Galaxy S II
> Camera:	8.0 MP Features:	3G Data Capable, FM radio, Multitasking, Wi-Fi Capable, GPS, Touchscreen, Music Player, Bluetooth Enabled
> *Cellular Band:
> GSM 850/900/1800/1900 (Quadband) UMTS/HSPA+ 850/1700/1900/2100*
> *Carrier:
> Unlocked*
> Operating System:Android Storage Capacity:16 GB


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S_II
(T-Mobile USA only), 1,900, 2,100 MHz)

If your Samsung phone was not unlocked, you can go on the internet and get a unlock service...such as GSMLiberty.
This is all provided the phone is not stolen.

All you need to do on their website is enter the IMEI (Moblie Electronic IDentification number) (usually located under the battery along with the phone's serial number). IMEI is the phone's unique identifier to the service provider..its like your SIN. 

If a cell phone is stolen, and another SIM card is installed in order to use the phone, the service provider with the associated original SIM or even substitute SIM card will be able to identify your phone and FREEZE IT so it can't be used, in a fraudulent attempt to use a stolen iphone. 
www.wikihow.com/Find-the-IMEI-or-MEID-Number-on-a-Mobile-Phone

The IMEI is transmitted immediately along with the SIM information, so the service provider can link the subscribed
data plan(s) to the unique cell phone.


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## ChrisR

james4beach said:


> Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. That Moto G sounds appealing, but...
> 
> I did a bit of an impulse buy from craigslist, and I'm now the proud owner of a Samsung Galaxy S2 (cost me $40). I bought it because it looked like it was in pretty good shape, screen looks perfect and price seemed good.
> 
> I've already been able to upgrade the OS to a current Android version. What I haven't figured out yet is whether this is locked to its carrier, as it's branded T-Mobile (I'm in the US).


Good news: T-mobile has historically been the most "unlock" friendly of the big US telcos. The following page seems to describe an app for unlocking an older T-mobile phone without ever having to contact T-mobile directly.

http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-14011


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## banjopete

https://republicwireless.com/

this is something I've read about in the states as a lower cost alternative, still waiting for something non big 3 up here as a real alternative for us poor schleps


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## james4beach

Thanks again for the notes everyone. I think this phone is currently locked to T-Mobile. As I'll be in the US for a bit, I'm going to sign up with T-Mobile service (they have free roaming into Canada).

Apparently after 40 days of service they can unlock it for no charge and then I can try a Canadian SIM in it and see what happens!


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## james4beach

By the way I'm pretty happy with my second-hand smart phone. The battery is a bit weak, and I'll buy a second one, but even that ($40 for the phone + $20 for battery on amazon = $60 total) is far cheaper than any NEW phone.

CBC is running a story about growing popularity of cheaper smart phones
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/cheaper-smartphones-gain-popularity-among-consumers-1.2847104

I encourage everyone to consider buying second-hand smart phones. There are so many people buying the latest and greatest phones that there's an over-supply of used phones. Use the supply/demand imbalance to your advantage.


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## james4beach

ChrisR said:


> Good news: T-mobile has historically been the most "unlock" friendly of the big US telcos.


I can confirm that the (american) t-mobile phone was indeed easy to unlock. While it was still active on their service, I phoned up t-mobile US and they gave me the unlock code... now in Canada, I just popped in a Virgin Mobile prepaid SIM and it works fine. I'm surprised how easy it was.


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## nathan79

London Drugs has the Moto G on Telus prepaid for $79.99. Available in-store only. 

If you're already with Telus it seems like a pretty good deal. I wanted to purchase one and have it unlocked to use with another carrier but the salesperson wouldn't sell it to me unless I activated with Telus. I figured it wasn't worth the hassle. Your mileage may vary...


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## fatcat

nathan79 said:


> London Drugs has the Moto G on Telus prepaid for $79.99. Available in-store only.
> 
> If you're already with Telus it seems like a pretty good deal. I wanted to purchase one and have it unlocked to use with another carrier but the salesperson wouldn't sell it to me unless I activated with Telus. I figured it wasn't worth the hassle. Your mileage may vary...


i just bought the 2nd gen moto-g for 199 at staples ... amazing phone for the money ... the first gen at 79 is a screaming deal ... it has 4.5" screen vs 5 for the 2nd gen both are really good values


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## cainvest

nathan79 said:


> London Drugs has the Moto G on Telus prepaid for $79.99. Available in-store only.


Not a bad deal, buy it and have telus unlock for $35 (if on a different carrier) so you end up with $115 moto g.



fatcat said:


> i just bought the 2nd gen moto-g for 199 at staples ... amazing phone for the money ... the first gen at 79 is a screaming deal ... it has 4.5" screen vs 5 for the 2nd gen both are really good values


I passed on the last $199 moto g 2nd gen deal in the hope I'd get a better price at xmas but haven't seen it lower yet. :upset:


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## nathan79

cainvest said:


> Not a bad deal, buy it and have telus unlock for $35 (if on a different carrier) so you end up with $115 moto g.


I went back to the store this evening and ended up buying it after all. The original salesperson I dealt with must have been ignorant or something. The guy I dealt with tonight sold it to me no questions asked and said I could activate it whenever I wanted.

Just had it unlocked online for $2.50 and popped in my SpeakOut SIM. Total cost including tax and unlock... <$93


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## cainvest

nathan79 said:


> Just had it unlocked online for $2.50 and popped in my SpeakOut SIM. Total cost including tax and unlock... <$93


Now that's a cheap unlock price, always wondered if those online ones worked, never tried them.


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## fatcat

the 2nd gen is unlocked already of course
it only has 8 gigs but there is an expansion card
i keep no media on mine and just sync to google so i am not even at 2 gigs of use

i would compare it to the 2nd gen moto-x which is a lovely phone but substantially more unlocked (though they are having some nice sales)
it is not as fast or light as the moto-x which has a 5.2 screen
but for the money i am blown away at how good this phone is

the first gen has an even sharper screen, though the 2nd gen screen is just excellent


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## nathan79

I used unlockmenow.ca

Only thing I'm not impressed with is the camera, but I already knew it wasn't great. I never intend to use it for any serious photography anyway. (The second gen one has a much nicer camera.)

The screen is indeed awesome. I know that many new phones have 1080p, but I don't feel like I'm missing much since this one is a bit smaller and looks just as crisp. I decided that I preferred a smaller screen because it fits nicely in one hand.


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## fatcat

nathan79 said:


> The screen is indeed awesome. I know that many new phones have 1080p, but I don't feel like I'm missing much since this one is a bit smaller and looks just as crisp. I decided that I preferred a smaller screen because it fits nicely in one hand.


this is one of my arguments for the commoditization of phones ... the moto-g 1st gen clocks in at something like 310ppi vs. 450 and climbing in the top line phones and it really doesn't matter, most people can't tell the difference


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## Janus

james, 

try looking at the Google Nexus 4. Great android phone, good specs and the price is right. I paid $200 for mine a year ago (new), I imagine they're considerably cheaper now.


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## CPA Candidate

I recently got a Samsung Galaxy S5 for $20 on a two year plan with Rogers at the local Costco. Because it was a "Black Friday" sale, in addition Costco gave me $125 of Costco gift cards and a free car charger. Essentially they paid me $105 to take the phone and enroll in a 2 year, $60/month plan. I would recommend looking into getting a phone at Costco with an eye to timing a sale.


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## cainvest

CPA Candidate said:


> I recently got a Samsung Galaxy S5 for $20 on a two year plan with Rogers at the local Costco. Because it was a "Black Friday" sale, in addition Costco gave me $125 of Costco gift cards and a free car charger. Essentially they paid me $105 to take the phone and enroll in a 2 year, $60/month plan. I would recommend looking into getting a phone at Costco with an eye to timing a sale.


While it is a "low cost" phone up front, the $1440 plan is where they make their money back. Of course this is ok is you want all the plan offers voice,text,data,etc.


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## Synergy

cainvest said:


> While it is a "low cost" phone up front, the $1440 plan is where they make their money back. Of course this is ok is you want all the plan offers voice,text,data,etc.


IMO that was a very good deal. I use to get a "free" phone every 3 years after my corporate plan ran out (new version of whatever I wanted), even with my $45 per month voice / data plan. Now because of these new 2 yr restrictions on the telcos, most companies require plans in the $70-80 range in order to get a decent credit on one of their phones (a new phone for $49.99, etc.). So much for consumer protection. I personally don't think these companies are going to be hurt all that much from any of these new policies. However, people like me may simply start to keep their phones longer. I'm currently working with retention / the loyalty department at the moment and it's like pulling teeth. Instead of simply paying more to keep up with inflation, etc., we now pay more and receive less in terms of data, extras, etc. The reps are using these new restrictions as an excuse for the higher fees.


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## My Own Advisor

I've always thought Koodo has a nice lineup of smartphones and good plans for them.
http://koodomobile.com/en/bc/index.shtml


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## brad

My Own Advisor said:


> I've always thought Koodo has a nice lineup of smartphones and good plans for them.
> http://koodomobile.com/en/bc/index.shtml


I think they're the price leader, but it's still a lot of money. Their cheapest plan is $35 before taxes and allows only 50 megabytes of data. If you're not careful to download apps, app updates, system update, and music via wifi instead of the cellular network, you can easily use 50 megabytes of data in a day or less. If you want a more realistic plan you're talking $45-$50/month before taxes, which means a real cost of roughly $55-$65 per month, or $660-$780/year. That's enough money to make it worth questioning whether you really need data.

I have 55 years of experience living without a data plan, so I'm pretty skilled at getting by without it.  My voice-only plan costs me $25.75/month including taxes, which saves up to $470/year that I can use for other things that I believe will bring me more pleasure and utility than cellphone data. 

Smart phones and data plans are great, and I totally understand their appeal (and some people need them for their work; they're also really handy for people with families to keep track of). But given the cost, and the fact that this thread is posted in the "Frugality" area of the forum, it's worth taking a hard look at whether you actually need a data plan before committing to that expense year after year.


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## cainvest

brad said:


> I have 55 years of experience living without a data plan, so I'm pretty skilled at getting by without it.  My voice-only plan costs me $25.75/month including taxes, which saves up to $470/year that I can use for other things that I believe will bring me more pleasure and utility than cellphone data.
> 
> Smart phones and data plans are great, and I totally understand their appeal (and some people need them for their work; they're also really handy for people with families to keep track of). But given the cost, and the fact that this thread is posted in the "Frugality" area of the forum, it's worth taking a hard look at whether you actually need a data plan before committing to that expense year after year.


It is rather interesting how many say they *need* data but when you look deeper it turns out to be very few actually do. Many places I go have free wifi including almost all of my friends homes so cell data is almost useless to me. On the frugality side it is definitely one of the first things to look at getting away from to save some cash.


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## Retired Peasant

brad said:


> I have 55 years of experience living without a data plan, so I'm pretty skilled at getting by without it.  My voice-only plan costs me $25.75/month including taxes, which saves up to $470/year that I can use for other things that I believe will bring me more pleasure and utility than cellphone data.


If all you want is voice-only, just get a cheap phone, and use a pay as you go plan. PCMobile, 7-11, PetroCan all sell basic voice phones. It costs me < $9 a month.


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## brad

Retired Peasant said:


> If all you want is voice-only, just get a cheap phone, and use a pay as you go plan. PCMobile, 7-11, PetroCan all sell basic voice phones. It costs me < $9 a month.


The catch is that 90% of my cellphone use occurs when I'm traveling in the US. I used to have a pay-as-you-go cellphone with a US number, but it got hard to top it up without a US postal address, and I ran into other problems. Most pay-as-you-go plans in Canada don't allow roaming in the US, or if they do it's really expensive. With Fido I use my "Fido dollars" credits to buy travel packs, so I can make a certain number of minutes of calls for free while traveling. Works for Europe as well - I used my Fido Dollars to purchase a travel pack for Europe and didn't spend a cent on cell phone calls during a trip we took to France earlier this year.


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## Synergy

cainvest said:


> It is rather interesting how many say they *need* data but when you look deeper it turns out to be very few actually do.


If it wasn't for my work and the fact that I can write off my cell phone bills, I'd definetely drop the data plan and simply use wireless hotspots, texting instead of email, etc.


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## My Own Advisor

@brad,

Why not use Skype for international travel or US travel?


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## brad

My Own Advisor said:


> @brad,
> 
> Why not use Skype for international travel or US travel?


Because Skype requires either wifi or a cell data plan. When wifi is available, I use that and make calls on Skype (with varying success, I must say; motel wifi upload speeds sometimes can't handle Skype calls very well and I've had people complain they can't hear me speaking). But a lot of my calls are made or received in places where no wifi is available, and my work clients and colleagues have my cell number so I need to be able to take work-related calls when I'm traveling.


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## Retired Peasant

brad said:


> Most pay-as-you-go plans in Canada don't allow roaming in the US, or if they do it's really expensive.


True enough. I have US roaming with PCMobile; I don't think they offer it any longer, but I was grandfathered from when they did.


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## My Own Advisor

Gotcha, re: you must make your calls when wifi is not available....and I agree, some hotels have crappy wifi.


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## m3s

The "OnePlus One" is the new cheap smartphone to have (and it's by invite only) It's only sold directly online so you find a carrier with a BYOD discount plan.

The best cell phone plans in Canada are found where there are still legacy public providers (MTS, SaskTel and TBayTel) as the big 3 can't just collude prices amongst themselves. I got a Koodo plan while I was working in Manitoba, and their self serve website lets you port numbers and change address yourself online unlike other Canadian providers afaik.

It's unfortunate that data is so restricted in Canada. Around the world it's cheaper and practically unlimited.. LTE in a small town is already 30MB/15MB up and the typical wired home internet in Canada is like 15 down and 1 up.... I can already see all kinds of amazing technology being adopted in other countries that is not being adopted in Canada because of data costs.

Canada invented the telephone and led the world in telecom for a long time. Now we are left in the dust using fax machines, phone numbers and cheques.


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## Synergy

m3s said:


> Canada invented the telephone and led the world in telecom for a long time. Now we are left in the dust using fax machines, phone numbers and cheques.


Yes, please kill the "fax" machine. It's archaic and some companies just won't evolve with the times!


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## Sherlock




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## m3s

Synergy said:


> Yes, please kill the "fax" machine. It's archaic and some companies just won't evolve with the times!


According to Back to the Future you'll be wearing 2 ties and have fax machines in every room


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## nathan79

What's wrong with fax machines? Scanning and emailing documents is more of a hassle and takes longer. I could understand emailing instead if the document was already on the computer, but otherwise the fax still makes the most sense.


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## gardner

Sherlock said:


> speakout 7eleven


Yes, this is the cheapest way to run a phone. Also in the same ballpark is Petrocan mobility. Both of these operate on and resell Rogers network, but they are WAY cheaper than any other low-cost "plan".

https://www.pcmobilitysite.com

Koodo and the other "low cost" providers are only marginally cheaper than Bell/Rogers/Telus main brands. If you really want low cost and flexibility go with Speakout or Petrocan.


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## nathan79

Indeed. I frequently get 6 months out of a $25 credit on SpeakOut. I don't use data, but I don't really need it since there's free Wi-Fi available at most places I spend time. I can do without data while travelling.


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## james4beach

OK, now I'm intrigued by this SpeakOut thing.

Does anyone know how to get a Virgin Mobile phone unlocked? It's an older phone, and I'd be interested in getting it unlocked (currently on Virgin pre-paid) so that I can use it with SpeakOut


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## james4beach

By the way, I called Virgin Mobile to ask them about unlocking and they said there's a $50 fee -- the audacity of these people.

I guess I'll try the one nathan mentioned, unlockmenow.ca


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## Sherlock

If you have a smart phone, check out an ap called Fongo. It gives you a free phone number and you can make and receive free phone calls to most of Canada. It works over data, so if you have access to wifi you can make/receive calls without using your minutes.

By the way I am assuming you don't live in a Wind zone, otherwise you should just get that.


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## bayview

james4beach said:


> By the way, I called Virgin Mobile to ask them about unlocking and they said there's a $50 fee -- the audacity of these people.
> 
> I guess I'll try the one nathan mentioned, unlockmenow.ca


Have not read every posts. Can Virgin phones use Speakout which rides on Rogers bandwidth?

( Sorry I want to quote post #48)


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## bayview

nathan79 said:


> What's wrong with fax machines? Scanning and emailing documents is more of a hassle and takes longer. I could understand emailing instead if the document was already on the computer, but otherwise the fax still makes the most sense.


I disliked fax because I don't have one. I don't have a landline coz I don't need one. But some institutions like my foreign banks overseas only accept my authorised instructions by FAX and not a scanned note from me.


----------



## nathan79

Fair enough. I usually just go to Staples and use their fax if I'm really in a bind.

Also, it seems like many institutions use legal-size documents, which won't fit on my scanner bed (its maximum paper size is A4), so I have no choice but to fax them.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> As mentioned, Moto G (1st or 2nd gen) depending on price/features you want. There is also the Moto E


I just ordered a 2nd gen unlocked *Moto E* with 4G LTE for $115, new ... the only reason I went with Moto E is because it will apparently get 4G on both the US and Canadian carriers I'm using (mostly Rogers). I'll test it out soon.

As for my used smart phone I bought earlier: the Samsung Galaxy S2 had total cost of $40 + 55 to repair a button = $95. It lasted 1.5 years and is now mostly broken, so the cost worked out to about $63/year. Hopefully I will get at least 2 years out of my new phone.


----------



## agent99

nathan79 said:


> Indeed. I frequently get 6 months out of a $25 credit on SpeakOut. I don't use data, but I don't really need it since there's free Wi-Fi available at most places I spend time. I can do without data while travelling.


We use Speakout. My wife uses her a bit more, but mine lasts for ages. It doesn't work in USA, so when there for 3 months, I get a FREE AT&T SIM as we cross the border and buy a $25 of air time. No need for data, so that lasts us for 3 months. It even works in Canada and when US$ was closer to par, I used it year round. But now I am back to 7-eleven Speakout.


----------



## m3s

james4beach said:


> It lasted 1.5 years and is now mostly broken, so the cost worked out to about $63/year. Hopefully I will get at least 2 years out of my new phone.


I haven't found new phones to cost much more. iPhone 4 bought new in 2011 for $800 was sold on kijiji for $500 3.5 years later ($85/year) iPhone 3Gs was actually bought used and sold for the same price

Lots of savings to be had in the plans though. Subsidized phones are the biggest mistake as you're locked into an expensive plan and carrier locked phones have lower resale


----------



## andrewf

I think that is not necessarily the norm, m3. Why buy a 4 year old device when apple sells SE for $400 brand new?


----------



## james4beach

I don't understand how people are comfortable walking around with $500 computers in their pockets. With the abuse and risk they encounter... and I've seen lots of shattered screens out there.

The $100 phone gives me peace of mind. Even this is expensive but it's not a disaster if something happens to it.


----------



## andrewf

james, modern smartphones are pretty robust. You should see some real world drop tests. Even Samsung's S6/S7, which looks like it would be really fragile (aluminum and glass) stands up impressively well to being dropped from 6+feet.


----------



## carverman

andrewf said:


> james, modern smartphones are pretty robust. You should see some real world drop tests. Even Samsung's S6/S7, which looks like it would be really fragile (aluminum and glass) stands up impressively well to being *dropped from 6+feet*.


I can just picture an ad from Samsung...a guy rock climbing drops his Samsung phone out of his pocket, climbs down, picks up his phone, dials and says'
can you hear me now?"


----------



## CalgaryPotato

Synergy said:


> Yes, please kill the "fax" machine. It's archaic and some companies just won't evolve with the times!


Yes please.

And for the person who asked what is wrong with fax machines, besides everything, they represent usually a bad business process. Such as a company sending you a form that has to be printed, filled out, and then faxed back, then the information typed back into a system... As an IT person it just makes me want to scream out, OMG it's 2016 just make a website.


----------



## CalgaryPotato

james4beach said:


> I don't understand how people are comfortable walking around with $500 computers in their pockets. With the abuse and risk they encounter... and I've seen lots of shattered screens out there.
> 
> The $100 phone gives me peace of mind. Even this is expensive but it's not a disaster if something happens to it.


So now that it's been a long period of time do you find your use of your phone as limited as you thought it would be?

I know when I first got a smart phone, I thought, why am I wasting my money, I'm going to regret this purchase. And now 5 years later I use it about 20* as much as I use my home computers.


----------



## Beaver101

CalgaryPotato said:


> Yes please.
> 
> And for the person who asked what is wrong with fax machines, besides everything, they represent usually a bad business process. *Such as a company sending you a form that has to be printed, filled out, and then faxed back, then the information typed back into a system..*. As an IT person it just makes me want to scream out, *OMG it's 2016 just make a website*.


 ... and some banks' discount brokerages would make you do a "fascimile" if an amendment needs to be made as they would need your "authorization (aka signature)" and there was no other way around this ... oh, and this was in 2015, OMG too! :biggrin:


----------



## Eclectic12

james4beach said:


> I don't understand how people are comfortable walking around with $500 computers in their pockets. With the abuse and risk they encounter... and I've seen lots of shattered screens out there.


My co-worker has shattered at least two in the same time I've had zero problems, with an under $100 protective case. The main differences he as described is that he seems far more careless (one screen shatter was when he sat on it) and preferring a slim, less protective case.

When it is out of my pocket ... the $100 or less option is far more to my liking.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

andrewf said:


> ... Why buy a 4 year old device when apple sells SE for $400 brand new?


The question is how the market holds up ... as well as what the individual wants to use.

Cheers


----------



## james4beach

CalgaryPotato said:


> So now that it's been a long period of time do you find your use of your phone as limited as you thought it would be?


I've had a smart phone now for about a year and a half. Everyone said I'd get addicted and start using it constantly.

But that didn't play out. I still hardly use it. I mostly use it to make voice calls and send text messages, which I can do with a $50 flip phone. I don't like using the smart phone at all. I keep the data disconnected nearly all the time. In the short period I've had it, I've already seen the Google apps become bloated and much slower than they originally were.

Because of the constant app bloat, I see that really we're just being tricked into buying new units due to sloppy programming (by Google anyway) + *planned obsolescence*. I see this thing as a marketing platform meant to make me purchase more things, and I refuse to pay hundreds of dollars to be _subjected to advertising_.

No, I honestly still hate the things. I just need the maps and transit planning ability.


----------



## gardner

james4beach said:


> I mostly use it to make voice calls and send text messages, which I can do with a $50 flip phone.


Same for me -- except I use the camera constantly. Need to note an address? photograph it. Need to remember a price or model? Remember when you painted something or changed your tires or went somewhere? Having a vaguely decent (~> 4 MPix) camera in my pocket 99% of the time has been the "killer app" for me. I have some really great pictures that I only have because the phone was in my pocket when the opportunity presented itself. There is an old adage in photography circles that the best camera for the job is the one you have with you.


----------



## Eclectic12

james4beach said:


> I've had a smart phone now for about a year and a half. Everyone said I'd get addicted and start using it constantly.
> 
> But that didn't play out. I still hardly use it. I mostly use it to make voice calls and send text messages, which I can do with a $50 flip phone ... No, I honestly still hate the things. I just need the maps and transit planning ability.


Given this, I don't understand the following ...



james4beach said:


> I just ordered a 2nd gen unlocked *Moto E* with 4G LTE for $115, new
> ...


After all ... there's https://www.roammobility.com/breeze-phone, where the "sold out" does not seem to be an issue. When I first read about it a couple of years ago, there was only the web site. Now just about every Staples Canada store I walk into, I see in their range of unlocked cell phones at least five of this flip phone. 

Or you can use the Staples web site .... http://www.staples.ca/en/Breeze-USA-Travel-Phone-Unlocked/product_586503_2-CA_1_20001

If you don't like their plans, the quad band plus dual SIMs as I understand it, should mean your choices are broad.


Maps and transit apps would not convince me to pay double for a smart phone.


Cheers


*PS*

I am not sure how it compares ... but this looks interesting too.
http://www.onesimcard.com/international-sim-card/
http://www.onesimcard.com/international-cell-phones/


----------



## agent99

Eclectic12 said:


> After all ... there's https://www.roammobility.com/breeze-phone, where the "sold out" does not seem to be an issue. When I first read about it a couple of years ago, there was only the web site. Now just about every Staples Canada store I walk into, I see in their range of unlocked cell phones at least five of this flip phone.


I don't really understand their offer. Can you just buy the phone without signing up for any of their plans? Their cost for use in USA is too high for us. We put a free AT&T sim into our unlocked phone, buy $25 of air time, and that is our total cost for a 3 month stay. (calls are cheap and we don't use data. We use Skype for LD calls to Canada)

I do apparently need a new phone, because AT&T tell me my 2G flip phone will become obsolete later this year.

Speakout have reasonably priced phones. But I don't need the $50 top up required to get the $20 discount. I would never use $50 in a year before expiry.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I've had a smart phone now for about a year and a half.  Everyone said I'd get addicted and start using it constantly.
> 
> But that didn't play out. I still hardly use it. I mostly use it to make voice calls and send text messages, which I can do with a $50 flip phone. I don't like using the smart phone at all. I keep the data disconnected nearly all the time. In the short period I've had it, I've already seen the Google apps become bloated and much slower than they originally were.
> 
> Because of the constant app bloat, I see that really we're just being tricked into buying new units due to sloppy programming (by Google anyway) + *planned obsolescence*. I see this thing as a marketing platform meant to make me purchase more things, and I refuse to pay hundreds of dollars to be _subjected to advertising_.
> 
> No, I honestly still hate the things. I just need the maps and transit planning ability.


If you're finding the device to be slow, you can restore the factory image. Just back up your data first.


----------



## TicTac

*Check out PetroCan Mobility*

I'm using PetroCan Mobility Prepaid for my unlocked Acer Z410- costs around $100 for the year, pay quarterly, Rogers network, plus roll over of unused minutes as long as account is kept up to date. I use it mostly for mobile cheque deposit (unavailable on my Samsung tablet) and carry it for emergency purposes. Data plan is available, if required. I use Ooma VOIP for my home phone and in case of a power outage, phone calls are directed to my cell.


----------



## Eclectic12

agent99 said:


> I don't really understand their offer. Can you just buy the phone without signing up for any of their plans?


I will check the next time I am in Staples ... if I recall correctly - the package was the phone on it's own, where there were separate packages for the SIM.




agent99 said:


> Their cost for use in USA is too high for us. We put a free AT&T sim into our unlocked phone, buy $25 of air time, and that is our total cost for a 3 month stay. (calls are cheap and we don't use data. We use Skype for LD calls to Canada)


Where one has the phone already and is near wifi for software LD calls, sure ... that does not work for everyone though.


Cheers


----------



## james4beach

Here's a nice illustration of what I hate about smartphones. I'm setting up a new device... I am forced to sign into a google account (no choice about that either!)

Next screen: "Set up payment info"

Umm.... payment for what? Didn't I just buy this bloody phone?

*Options:
1. Add credit or debit card
2. Redeem code
3. Remind me later
*

How about none of the above? Is this my _phone_ or some kind of shopping kiosk?

And that gives you insight into the priorities of the designers. They are not prioritizing the important things to me: making phone calls, reliability, battery life. Instead they prioritize collecting marketing data and selling products & services & apps


----------



## brad

james4beach said:


> And that gives you insight into the priorities of the designers. They are not prioritizing the important things to me: making phone calls, reliability, battery life. Instead they prioritize collecting marketing data and selling products & services & apps


Well, it was your choice to buy a smart phone. The main reason people buy smart phones is to use apps, otherwise why would you bother with a smart phone? Some apps are free (and some come with the phone), but most apps cost money so of course you have to set up payment info so you can buy apps.


----------



## james4beach

I've had a smart phone for well over a year and have yet to pay for a signal application. I'm not sure how most people use these things, but given the number of free applications out there, are people really buying anything?

I basically bought the thing for Google Maps and transit navigation.


----------



## Eclectic12

brad said:


> ... Some apps are free (and some come with the phone), but most apps cost money so of course you have to set up payment info so you can buy apps.


I'll have to check ... AFAICT, no payment info as described in post # 73 were setup for my smartphone ... though it is locked.

Maybe this is more of an unlocked phone thing?


Cheers


*PS*

I do get reminded from time to time that I haven't filled out any payment info but have always declined as I have yet to find anything I am willing to pay for.


----------



## brad

james4beach said:


> I've had a smart phone for well over a year and have yet to pay for a signal application. I'm not sure how most people use these things, but given the number of free applications out there, are people really buying anything?


Mobile app revenue for Android and iOS combined is about $50 billion/year. See http://www.businessofapps.com/app-revenue-statistics/


----------



## Eclectic12

james4beach said:


> I've had a smart phone for well over a year and have yet to pay for a signal application. I'm not sure how most people use these things, but given the number of free applications out there, are people really buying anything?


They must be ... otherwise there would be no market for the pay apps and they'd disappear. As for how many pay, this article says that for the US market in 2015 - the estimate is that 33.3% of all mobile users versus 35.8% of smartphone users will buy at least one app.
http://www.emarketer.com/Article/Only-33-of-US-Mobile-Users-Will-Pay-Apps-This-Year/1011965

(*grin* ... I am pretty sure you mean "pay for a *single*" app as I suspect there would be a revolt if people paid for air time then had to pay again for signal apps.)


Cheers


----------



## Earl

james4beach said:


> I basically bought the thing for Google Maps and transit navigation.


Google Maps only works if you have a data connection. If you want something that will work without data you can try out Here Maps, it downloads the entire map to your phone so you don't need data.


----------



## twa2w

Earl said:


> Google Maps only works if you have a data connection. If you want something that will work without data you can try out Here Maps, it downloads the entire map to your phone so you don't need data.


Actually Google maps now has a feature to down load maps to your phone to use off line.
You do need a data connection of course to load the map onto you phone


----------



## Earl

twa2w said:


> Actually Google maps now has a feature to down load maps to your phone to use off line.
> You do need a data connection of course to load the map onto you phone


Pretty sure it's always had that feature (I remember using it a few years ago) but it's pretty limited compared to a map ap that's designed to be used offline.


----------



## jargey3000

I'm in much the same boat as james(OP). I also have a thread running on the forum...
The following ad is currently on kijiji in my area. Could anyone have a look & tell me if any of these are a "good deal"??:
_Upgraded our family phones. Compatible with Telus and Koodoo. 
Samsung Galaxy S4 16 GB comes with 3 cases asking $200 ******sold*****
2 moto G Second Generation 8GB comes with cases asking $100.00 each
iPhone 4 16GB Bell carrier asking 80.00_


----------



## jargey3000

oh... and, what's a SIM card? & what do I need to know about SIM cards?


----------



## brad

jargey3000 said:


> oh... and, what's a SIM card? & what do I need to know about SIM cards?


The SIM card is what enables you to have a phone number: without a SIM card your phone can be used for emergency calls only, but nobody will be able to call you on it. You may also be able to store your contacts and some other info on the SIM card so if you switch phones in the future (and use an unlocked phone) you can put the old SIM card into your new phone and you'll have everything you need.


----------



## brad

jargey3000 said:


> I
> _Upgraded our family phones. Compatible with Telus and Koodoo.
> Samsung Galaxy S4 16 GB comes with 3 cases asking $200 ******sold*****
> 2 moto G Second Generation 8GB comes with cases asking $100.00 each
> iPhone 4 16GB Bell carrier asking 80.00_


The iPhone 4 is a pretty good deal there, but it appears to be locked to Bell; unless you can get it unlocked you'll be paying Bell's rates.

The Moto G is a good price, but with having only 8 gigabytes of storage could be a problem -- maybe not for you since all you're looking to do is calls and texts, maybe occasional email and web browsing. If that's the case and you're not planning to take many photos or put music on it, 8 gigabytes might be okay. The Moto G is a good phone.


----------



## andrewf

Earl said:


> Pretty sure it's always had that feature (I remember using it a few years ago) but it's pretty limited compared to a map ap that's designed to be used offline.


They took it out for a while. I was frustrated when they did. It is now back, and enhanced (includes POI data, not just streetmaps).


----------



## m3s

If you do any hiking, biking, offroading etc off the beaten path, or want to know random things like what poi has free wifi.. openstreetmaps data far surpasses google maps and growing a la wikipedia. You can pick whatever app to display the data offline depending on your activity/view of choice. I contribute to openstreetmaps



andrewf said:


> I think that is not necessarily the norm, m3. Why buy a 4 year old device when apple sells SE for $400 brand new?


This was before SE existed, but if I were selling a 6 today someone would easily pay for a used 6 instead of a new SE. Depending what you want.. like buying a used luxury/sports car or a new entry level car


----------



## andrewf

m3s said:


> If you do any hiking, biking, offroading etc off the beaten path, or want to know random things like what poi has free wifi.. openstreetmaps data far surpasses google maps and growing a la wikipedia. You can pick whatever app to display the data offline depending on your activity/view of choice. I contribute to openstreetmaps
> 
> 
> 
> This was before SE existed, but if I were selling a 6 today someone would easily pay for a used 6 instead of a new SE. Depending what you want.. like buying a used luxury/sports car or a new entry level car


But no one is going to pay you $800 for a 2 year old iphone 6 that was $1000 new.


----------



## m3s

Probably not, but I never said they would. There's lots of people still using iPhone 4 who will buy used iPhone 6. The depreciation/year compared to the function I get out of a smartphone is better than any other electronic I've ever owned. Kinda like spending a few hundred extra on tires is irrelevant when you'll spend thousands on gas using the tires


----------



## james4beach

I received my unlocked Moto E with LTE yesterday (115 USD = 144 CAD). Seems nice. I measured an _astounding_ 43 Mbps data rate in an internet speed test, on my US carrier. I can't wait to see whether I get good data rates with Rogers as I make my rounds through Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg.

It also updated itself to Android lollipop


----------



## leoc2

James here is a link to Redflags forums that explains how to get a Moto E for $29.99 at bestbuy (USA). It can be unlocked too. Perhaps you can get this one and return yours if this phone is identical.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/usa-...moto-e-android-5-0-29-99-no-contract-1970119/


----------



## james4beach

That's crazy! The only difference is that would be an AT&T phone so it would have the AT&T variant of the software suite... probably not a big deal. The remaining unknown is unlocking it, since it would be locked to AT&T initially.

I'll look into that, wow.

OK, I did a bit of reading on a few forums. The thing that worries me about this is the effort and time delay to unlock it, the potential loss of tethering capability (as forums report that AT&T blocks tethering on some of these Moto phones). Probably two risks I don't want to take, since I urgently needed this phone for upcoming trips back home to Canada and can't afford to wait a few days for an unlocking process. Tethering is also extremely important to me and it works fine on my current Moto E.

However, I am tempted to do some cross-border arbitrage, buy a few of these and sell them in Canada at $80 for a brand new phone  If I did five of those it would be... about $200 profit perhaps?


----------



## brad

james4beach said:


> That's crazy! The only difference is that would be an AT&T phone so it would have the AT&T variant of the software suite... probably not a big deal. The remaining unknown is unlocking it, since it would be locked to AT&T initially.


My guess is that it would be a headache to deal with a phone like this. I made the mistake of buying an unlocked AT&T-branded flip phone a few years back, and even though it's unlocked all the built-in software (contacts, web browser, etc.) are proprietary to AT&T and they try to access AT&T's network every time you open them. 

With an Android phone there may be a way to wipe all that off and reinstall a clean version but that's just a guess, I have no idea whether it's possible.


----------



## james4beach

Yeah I have hesitations about these carrier-branded phones. These companies do a good job at wrecking a nice software environment that Google puts together... typically every carrier adds their own bloatware.

There are ways to wipe/root these phones and install a whole fresh system but I don't have experience doing that and I'm not inclined to bother. Frankly if this thing lets me use maps, GPS, tethering and data roaming between US-Canada, I'll be pretty happy. My plan gives me unlimited data, text and voice calls in both Canada and US (_insanely wonderful_).


----------



## jargey3000

this is a good thread .... i only wish i understood HALF of what's being discussed! ...


----------



## ThinkingCapital

There are several low cost Android phones that are quite good (Motorola, etc.) as well as several low-cost Windows Phones, if that's the way you want to go.


----------



## jargey3000

If want to start out cheap & simple, should I just head to Wal-Mart?


----------



## brad

jargey3000 said:


> If want to start out cheap & simple, should I just head to Wal-Mart?


I still think you have to decide what you want to get: a smart phone (with data plan) or just a plain old dumb phone that you'd use only for calls and texts. Once you know what you want, you can decide where to get it.

The other thing you need to decide is whether an unlocked phone would be useful to you or whether you're happy being locked to one carrier. An unlocked phone gives you more flexibility: you can keep your phone if you decide to switch carriers (e.g., from Bell to Fido or from Wind to Kodo, whatever). If you want an unlocked phone, you'll have to buy it from someplace that sells unlocked phones, like amazon.ca; Staples sells some and I imagine Walmart does as well (I've never shopped at Walmart so I don't know).

You have to define "cheap and simple" before you start shopping.

ThinkingCapital mentioned Windows phones, which is another option if you want a cheap smart phone: this is a dying platform and the prices are falling fast because nobody's buying them. If all you want to do is send text messages and make calls, and maybe occasionally browse the web and send emails, along with taking photos, a Windows phone could be all you need for a long time. But if you think you'll likely want to start buying apps, I'd go with Android. You can buy unlocked Windows phones directly from the Microsoft Store (just google Microsoft Store to get the link in Canada), or from amazon.ca.


----------



## MrMatt

Unless you get a Nexus phone, and it gets you pure Android.

Speaking of vendor bloatware, I think my next laptop will be a Microsoft edition from their store, as they are bloatware free.


----------



## Eclectic12

brad said:


> ... If you want an unlocked phone, you'll have to buy it from someplace that sells unlocked phones, like amazon.ca; Staples sells some and I imagine Walmart does as well (I've never shopped at Walmart so I don't know).


Or find a deal on a locked phone and unlock it ... as two co-workers have done.


Cheers


----------



## jargey3000

brad said:


> I still think you have to decide what you want to get: a smart phone (with data plan) or just a plain old dumb phone that you'd use only for calls and texts. Once you know what you want, you can decide where to get it.
> 
> The other thing you need to decide is whether an unlocked phone would be useful to you or whether you're happy being locked to one carrier. An unlocked phone gives you more flexibility: you can keep your phone if you decide to switch carriers (e.g., from Bell to Fido or from Wind to Kodo, whatever). If you want an unlocked phone, you'll have to buy it from someplace that sells unlocked phones, like amazon.ca; Staples sells some and I imagine Walmart does as well (I've never shopped at Walmart so I don't know).
> 
> You have to define "cheap and simple" before you start shopping.
> 
> ThinkingCapital mentioned Windows phones, which is another option if you want a cheap smart phone: this is a dying platform and the prices are falling fast because nobody's buying them. If all you want to do is send text messages and make calls, and maybe occasionally browse the web and send emails, along with taking photos, a Windows phone could be all you need for a long time. But if you think you'll likely want to start buying apps, I'd go with Android. You can buy unlocked Windows phones directly from the Microsoft Store (just google Microsoft Store to get the link in Canada), or from amazon.ca.


Thanks brad. I guess I'm looking for something that I can make phone calls, text, AND "surf the web " a bit. maybe take a picture or two.
Does that = a smartphone?
as for "cheap & simple", I mean if i can get something that does tha,t as say: A) a $20 phone & a $100/year plan; or say: B) a $200 phone & $70/a month plan ... I'd go for "A"


----------



## brad

jargey3000 said:


> Thanks brad. I guess I'm looking for something that I can make phone calls, text, AND "surf the web " a bit. maybe take a picture or two.
> Does that = a smartphone?
> as for "cheap & simple", I mean if i can get something that does tha,t as say: A) a $20 phone & a $100/year plan; or say: B) a $200 phone & $70/a month plan ... I'd go for "A"


Okay, now we're getting somewhere. If you want to surf the web and take photos, you'll need a smart phone. 

You're not going to find a decent smartphone for $20. You can find a reasonably good one for $100-$150, especially if you buy used, e.g., from Swappa, but some of the new Windows phones are less than $200. Because Windows phone is going to die out, and because not many apps are being developed for it, you might be better off going with Android. The Moto E and G phones are pretty affordable and should serve your purposes.

If you want to surf the web, you'll need a data plan. I think Wind and Kodo offer the cheapest plans for that, but I haven't checked lately. If you're only occasionally surfing and checking email, you should need a big data plan but you'll likely pay considerably more than $100/year if you want data.


----------



## jargey3000

ok..thanks. i think i'm heading in that general direction....


----------



## james4beach

For anyone curious about the Moto E (2nd generation 4G LTE) here's my experience so far:

Definitely a nice all around phone. I like the smallish size compared to some of the giant smart phones these days. I can't speak as to its durability, since I just got it, but it certainly does all the smart phone functions very well at a good price. I'm very happy with the *battery life* so far. I used it reasonably heavily for a day -- nearly an hour of phone calls, and plenty of data activities (500 MB of transfer while I install apps, browse web, etc). So far I'm at 38 hours since last charge and the battery has 40% charge left.

One thing I'm careful to do is turn off location services when not in use, since GPS & wifi consumes a lot of power. With those turned off unless I need them, I wouldn't be surprised if I get 2 days on a charge with the Moto E.

However if I'm travelling, driving etc and relying on GPS for a long trip, I'm not sure how much battery life I'd get. Be careful that the user interfaces group these as "Location" settings but there are various sub modes with varying power usage, e.g. just GPS, or GPS+wifi.


----------



## Spudd

You won't need a data plan to surf the web unless you want to do it somewhere where there's no wifi. I use the Rogers pay-as-you-go $10/month plan, which lets me buy a "data pass" for $1 whenever I need data. It's not as convenient as having a proper data plan, but it saves a ton of money. I'm on wifi most of the time (either at home, or some public places also have free wifi), so I rarely need to buy data.


----------



## james4beach

That's a really good point. Just use wifi for internet browsing, and forget about data plans -- a good option!


----------



## brad

james4beach said:


> That's a really good point. Just use wifi for internet browsing, and forget about data plans -- a good option!


A good option if you're only using your phone in Canada. In the US, you often can't roam with a smart phone without a data plan, even if you have it set to use only wifi for data -- I think this is the case when roaming with AT&T and Verizon, for example.


----------



## james4beach

Moto E has been working fine for me on Telus and Bell networks, with LTE (I got 12 Mbps in Winnipeg).


----------



## leoc2

james4beach said:


> Moto E has been working fine for me on Telus and Bell networks, with LTE (I got 12 Mbps in Winnipeg).


The Moto E is on sale at Walmart Canada for $49. It should be easy to unlock from Chatr. Here is a link to Redflags forum that talks about it.http://forums.redflagdeals.com/walmart-canada-chatr-mobile-moto-e-49-may-19th-1984183/


----------



## agent99

Wish I could have got one of those. Some sites in USA and here had low prices, but when I went there, they always said out of stock. 

Anyway, it was time to get something, so I ordered an unlocked Moto E 2nd Gen 8Gb refurbished from Staples. $69.00, but we needed some printing supplies, so got a $10.00 rebate (over $100 order). Should be here tomorrow. I need a smart phone less than James did when he bought his. Another flip phone would have worked, but I can see using the wifi while we are on the road in USA. Up here, I will continue to use Speakout and in the USA, I will get an AT&T SIM plus $25 or prepaid. We won't use data. Just use it for local calls here and in USA. I may get a free iRoam SIM card with it, but they are data only SIMS. Can't see the point unless it would take two SIMs?


----------



## carverman

jargey3000 said:


> Thanks brad. I guess I'm looking for something that I can make phone calls, text, AND "surf the web " a bit. maybe take a picture or two.


Surfing the web..that will require a data plan and that can run you up a sizeable bill if you spend a lot of time surfing.

Cell phone companies charge you for Gigabytes of data, and it doesn't take a lot of surfing to run up 2-3GB or even more. If you go over your monthly plan the data charges go up steeply.



> Does that = a smartphone?


 (yes, pretty much so) 



> as for "cheap & simple", I mean if i can get something that does tha,t as say: A) a *$20 phone & a $100/year plan;* or say: B) a $200 phone & $70/a month plan ... I'd go for "A"


I do my surfing on my PC..a lot cheaper and the ISP gives me nearly unlimited bandwidth. 

I have an old WIND (now Freedom) cell phone HUAWEI U120-9) that is not a smart phone, but I only paid about $50 for it outright about 8 years ago. It has a SIM chip that is set up with WIND and I have left it that
way for a few years as the cell phone plan is just right for me for occasional use as a pay-as-you-go plan..for an emergency phone, in case my internet phone is not working.

I had to buy a new lithium Ion battery for it 2 years ago, but it was very cheap on EBay.

I prepay about $50 (+ tax) every 6 months and its good for me as a backup phone, being very frugal. 

It's hard to find an unlocked $20 phone these days..but what about the older flip phone at $50?

Polaroid LINK A2 Flip Phone - Black - Unlocked at $49.99?
http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product...spx?path=c66af78e3394d2b4a45c4b586c3c7dd0en02


----------



## agent99

My Motorola Moto e arrived today. Now I am looking for a 13 year old to show me how to set it up. After about 8 years I was just starting to get the hang of my flip phone. 

It is a refurb, but essentially appears as-new and comes with new looking charger and manuals in plain box. More than I need, but fun to try and figure it out.


----------



## james4beach

Thought I would ask this question again. I've been happily using a Moto E for several years, but might replace it soon. I've been happy with the quality so am leaning towards another Motorola, but am open minded.

Today I saw a friend's Nokia 3.1 which also looked like a nice, low cost Android smart phone. It's $185 at Best Buy... seems on the expensive side. My current short list of smart phones in this price range are:

- Moto E5
- Moto G4
- Nokia 3.1

Does anyone know of others? Any recommendations?


----------



## ian

We prefer to buy our phones outright and be completely independent of the service provider.

My Moto E4 is two years old. $139 for a new, unlocked unit (ex Verizon) through Amazon two years ago. No plans to replace it.

Spouse has a Samsung A5 (new). $250. from Koodo on line this past March.

Happy with both. Samsung seems to have a bit longer battery life than the Moto E4. Both are acceptable.

I recall reading somewhere that the LG (?) and Motorola phones are the same, simply marketing under different labels

Prior to buying I did some research. Lots of reviews...PCMAG, etc. plus another one from the UK that seemed quite comprehensive.

As is the case with many electronics, I believe that they smart buy is always one version back. We never buy the newest release model of anything and we are usually one upgrade or a year behind any software upgrade assuming no problems with the current version.


----------



## Longtimeago

Having grown up in an era when a phone was for phone calls, I have never embraced the idea that I needed a phone to do anything other than that. If I want internet access, I use an iPad or my laptop. My last cellphone did no more than that and when I needed to replace it a year or so ago, I looked for a phone, NOT a one size fits all except your hand comfortably, solution. 

Side note, have you noticed how cellphones started out big and bulky and then went down in size until they couldn't get much smaller and then the manufacturers reversed that trend to where a 'smart' phone today is almost the same size as the iPad Mini.

When I started looking for a replacement last year, I came across a new phone by Nokia that was touted as a 'nostalgia' item. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVkqzTjXxgg
Now a year into using it, I can report that it actually does a good job of making and receiving phone calls. As for everything else, who cares.

P.S. Oh yeah, battery life. Should mention I need to charge it about every 7-14 days. Anyone remember when that was the case for their phone?


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Thought I would ask this question again. I've been happily using a Moto E for several years, but might replace it soon. I've been happy with the quality so am leaning towards another Motorola, but am open minded.
> 
> Today I saw a friend's Nokia 3.1 which also looked like a nice, low cost Android smart phone. It's $185 at Best Buy... seems on the expensive side. My current short list of smart phones in this price range are:
> 
> - Moto E5
> - Moto G4
> - Nokia 3.1
> 
> Does anyone know of others? Any recommendations?


I think any of the Moto G phones (4/5/6) would be a good buy. I like the lean Android interfaces on them.

Might also want to look the the new G7's that just came out. A little more in price but you get the latest OS, bigger screens and good battery life on some models.


----------



## cainvest

Longtimeago said:


> P.S. Oh yeah, battery life. Should mention I need to charge it about every 7-14 days. Anyone remember when that was the case for their phone?


My friend's G6 Play lasts him all week.


----------



## ian

Battery life is a function of usage,overhead, and technology. Mine lasts for up to two weeks because I do not use the phone very much and I do not use cel data. Very occasionally we use the wifi data function.

Some of the better reviews will provide you with useful measures of battery life based upon actual usage/time measurements.

We have enabled and use the usual battery saving options on both phones.


----------



## agent99

ian said:


> I recall reading somewhere that the LG (?) and Motorola phones are the same, simply marketing under different labels


Motorola were bought by Google a little while back. Then Lenovo bought Motorola from Google. LG, I believe, make their own phones in Korea. Maybe some designs are licensed from Motorola? But I read that LG had a licensing agreement with Nokia.

Lenovo will maintain the Motorola brand in North America. You can buy the equivalent Lenovo phones from Chinese on-line sites, like this one : https://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/lenovo+phone.html. I was tempted last Fall when they had the phones on sale, but making sure that they would work on our local and North American channels was more work that I wanted!

I often look at Staples. They have reasonable prices, and sometimes have very good sale items. I bought my Motorola e 2nd edition (refurb) for just over $60. It looked like new and works just great - just limited by only 8Gb memory which limits installed apps. Don't use it much for cellular calls or text, but do often use it with wifi for Google Voice/Hangouts calls as well as for web access. I use pay as you go Knowroaming that works in Canada, USA and most places around world. Costs me $25/9 months and my balance keeps growing!


----------



## ian

You are correct. It was Lenovo, not LG that I read had the same phones, different labels.

Thanks. I will have to look at knowroaming. We occasionally make international calls. Our practice has been to use our Speedy Pin Globetrotter long distance calling card.


----------



## andrewf

For my money, I would get an S9. They can be had for about $300, and you are getting a well-built phone with a good camera and screen.


----------



## james4beach

Great ideas here ian, thanks for sharing. I also need to make sure the phone handles tethering because this is awfully useful when travelling. I'm still shopping around.


----------



## Eclectic12

I have been happy with the Acer Liquid one I bought about four years ago in Costco for $99. It was bought due to being unlocked, covering the NA and Latin American frequencies and ability to have dual SIM cards.

I've used it mostly for voice so I can't comment much about the apps side of things.


I see Staples.ca has a Sky unlocked smartphone for $69.



Cheers


----------



## ian

From time to time I have seen unlocked cell phones, including Moto, on the Costco web site. I was not shopping so cannot comment on the pricing. I also saw a Moto something in a Costco store six or seven months ago. As I recall, it was $189. This was in the camera/jewelry area, NOTat the booth where the flog cell phones and cell plans. Have not seem them there lately though. Perhaps the booth vendor objected.


----------



## agent99

ian said:


> Thanks. I will have to look at knowroaming. We occasionally make international calls. Our practice has been to use our Speedy Pin Globetrotter long distance calling card.


With all the travel you do, K-R might be ideal. Wherever you are, it should just work when you get off the plane, just like a local phone. Calling rates are of course a bit higher. https://www.knowroaming.co/ You can also get data packages. But if you get to free wifi, no need of course.


----------



## Eclectic12

ian said:


> ... I also saw a Moto something in a Costco store six or seven months ago. As I recall, it was $189.
> 
> This was in the camera/jewelry area, NOT at the booth where the flog cell phones and cell plans. Have not seem them there lately though. Perhaps the booth vendor objected.


If the booth objected, it seems to be different from the Costcos than are in my area. At least three Costco locations have the booth flogging the plans with phones and at least two or more displays of unlocked cell phones for purchase. I can think of maybe a couple of visits over the last four years where I didn't see several unlocked phones on display.

There's usually at least one unlocked phone in the $100 then a range of Samsung ones starting at about $180.

The Costco.ca web site lists a range of unlocked iPhones ($299 to $499), a Moto G6 for $209 and three Asus Zen phones for pretty much $300.


The displays do get moved from time to time so they aren't always in the exact same location.


Cheers


----------



## Plugging Along

P


Eclectic12 said:


> I have been happy with the Acer Liquid one I bought about four years ago in Costco for $99. It was bought due to being unlocked, covering the NA and Latin American frequencies and ability to have dual SIM cards.
> 
> I've used it mostly for voice so I can't comment much about the apps side of things.
> 
> I see Staples.ca has a Sky unlocked smartphone for $69


We bought this for my kids as their first own new cell phone. They don’t have phone plans, just a share data with a free VoIP. For VOIP it’s fine, for everything else, it sucked. Ithere is low memory and it was constantly shutting down. Okay for teething, but slow.

We replaced one of the phones and use this phone as our travel phone now. I wouldn’t recommend it for longer term if one used anything other than voice.


----------



## ian

We don't take our cell phones with us when we travel out of the country. We use our ipads.


----------



## Eclectic12

For trips with wifi generally available, the cell phone has had only wifi enabled. For these particular trips, better than half the time, wifi is not available or if it is, it is too spotty.

On the last trip, one hour talk time to Canada and the US cost $1.50 USD so it is a bit of a no brainer to use both to make calls.


Cheers


----------



## like_to_retire

Eclectic12 said:


> For trips with wifi generally available, the cell phone has had only wifi enabled.


I use to rely on Tim Hortons, McDonalds, etc., whenever I was out and about and needed internet access. This, of course, required knowledge of where these hot spots were located and it was often a bit annoying to drive to those parking lots, but last year I gave up and added a small amount of data to my phone. 

I sure don't regret it (goodness knows I can afford it) because there are lots of times when you need the internet when you're away from your home. Come out of a movie and want to find the closest Boston Pizza? - you need the internet. Using Google Maps and want to know if there are any accidents in your trip that will delay you? - you need the internet, etc., etc.

Having internet data on a phone is invaluable. I don't need it to stream a movie to my phone, I just need important information at the right time. A gig a month is plenty.....

ltr


----------



## newfoundlander61

I use Petro Mobility which works on the Rogers Network. I have been using this for years and have my smart phone setup on prepaid. You can add a rate plan if you like and data as well.

https://mobility.petro-canada.ca/


----------



## m3s

Google Fi registered the trademark in Canada a few months ago and already works for Americans in Canada (roaming is free in 200+ countries...)

$20 unlimited plus $10/GB data and it switches automatically between free wifi and multiple carrier networks. It also has built in VPN for security even with the automatic network and wifi switching. No contracts.. no hidden fees and you can add data only sim card for additional devices at no cost etc..

I wonder what would happen if a Canadian signed up and used it mostly in Canada (like the unlimited "USMCA" AT&T plan)


----------



## Plugging Along

ian said:


> We don't take our cell phones with us when we travel out of the country. We use our ipads.


I travel with my ipad too, but also my cell. The last trip I thought I would try and NOT bring my cell, as it everything was arrange on tour and scheduled. I ended up having to use it because the stupid airline screwed up my reservation and we ended on the phone for hours. Then when were arrive, our guide didn't show up one day. So my lesson learned for me, is I always need a cell phone. 

Fortunately, I have an unlimited plan in North America with my work, and I just have to pay any person use if there is an extra charge. 

I have found paying a few dollars a day for plan (I use my phone to tether my ipad) has been most beneficially. In the US, I find am able to find so many promotions and deals using the my phone.


----------



## ian

The only travel that we have done in the US over the past six or seven years has been a one day trip down to Washington State if we happen to be in the Lower Mainland. All other travel has been to other countries. We just found that we did not really need our cell phones. Last winter we took one cell phone with the intention of buying a service in Australia. Never bothered, never needed it really. Over the past few years we have needed one in Thailand to deal with airline reservation changes. Our accommodation hosts were always happy to provide a cell for us to use.


----------



## Eclectic12

m3s said:


> Google Fi registered the trademark in Canada a few months ago and already works for Americans in Canada (roaming is free in 200+ countries...)
> $20 unlimited plus $10/GB data and it switches automatically between free wifi and multiple carrier networks ...


Not quite sure how to reconcile "roaming is free" as well as "$20 unlimited" with the "Rates when traveling in one of our covered destinations" that says for a non-wifi call, it's $0.20 a minute.
https://fi.google.com/about/international-rates/

At $0.20 a minute, an hour is 60 x $0.20 = $12 instead of the $1.50 that was paid.




m3s said:


> ... I wonder what would happen if a Canadian signed up and used it mostly in Canada (like the unlimited "USMCA" AT&T plan)


Maybe there will be a CMF volunteer who will give it a try and report back. :biggrin:


Cheers


----------



## m3s

Eclectic12 said:


> Not quite sure how to reconcile "roaming is free" as well as "$20 unlimited" with the "Rates when traveling in one of our covered destinations" that says for a non-wifi call, it's $0.20 a minute.
> https://fi.google.com/about/international-rates/
> 
> At $0.20 a minute, an hour is 60 x $0.20 = $12 instead of the $1.50 that was paid.


Yea it's free data roaming. Nowadays you can use Google Voice, VoIP/LTE/WiFi and many other voice apps for cheap voice/text over data instead.



Eclectic12 said:


> Maybe there will be a CMF volunteer who will give it a try and report back. :biggrin:


If I had a Pixel I would. I currently pay $35 for 5GB but I have to get local sims when travelling, so Fi is interesting.


----------



## Eclectic12

I suspect the cheap voice/text over data will work well in the areas wifi is good and in the areas it is not, the over data apps won't work either.

With a SIM already in hand and so far, prices being cheap ... this sounds more like a future possibility. It is good to know about and keep track of.



Cheers


----------



## agent99

m3s said:


> Google Fi registered the trademark in Canada a few months ago and already works for Americans in Canada (roaming is free in 200+ countries...)
> 
> I wonder what would happen if a Canadian signed up and used it mostly in Canada (like the unlimited "USMCA" AT&T plan)





> *With Google Fi, pricing is simple. Our plan starts at $20/month for unlimited calls and texts. Get exactly how much data you need for just $10/GB until 6 GB. After that, Google Fi’s Bill Protection caps your bill and data is free for the rest of the month*.


That doesn't sound free to me  

By using Knowroaming when away from wifi and free wifi with Hangouts (Google Voice), I get all the phone and data service I need incl LD in North America. For that I have to pay $25 every 9 months. On top of that, we do have to pay about US$4/month for home VOIP service with free LD in Canada (Ooma). I guess this should be in the Frugal forum


----------



## BigMonkey

I'd actually argue for getting a phone from a reputable manufacturer (Pixel/iPhone). If you do your banking/investing online through your cell phone, getting timely security and OS updates should reduce risk for being hacked. However small the chance may be, if your phone or banking ever gets compromised, the lost would be much greater than the $200-500 more it may have cost to have just gotten that Pixel or iPhone. 

You should also figure out what the cost per year would be as well. If a mid tier phone that cost $450 only last you 1.5 years before it is terribly slow and no longer relevant and a $900 flagship phone last you 3 years. The cost/year for both phones is really $300/year.


----------



## andrewf

You can buy a new, one year old Samsung flagship (S9) for ~$350, so it is not even a choice between $900 and $300.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> You can buy a new, one year old Samsung flagship (S9) for ~$350, so it is not even a choice between $900 and $300.


So where does one get one of these new S9's for $350?


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> So where does one get one of these new S9's for $350?


Koodo at the mobile shop (superstore) has this kind of deal periodically.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Koodo at the mobile shop (superstore) has this kind of deal periodically.


Are those unlocked?


----------



## cainvest

Koodo is showing their S9 purchase price of $1055, I guessing the $350 phone is only if you get a two year contract with them?


----------



## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> Are those unlocked?


Since 2017, all phones have to be unlocked, or the provider must unlock them if asked. From the article, just ignore the fact that stores are complaining about increase of stolen phones.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bell-rogers-crtc-piac-unlock-phone-1.4789161


----------



## ian

You need to check Koodo's pricing. Sometimes they will advertise a phone for what seems to be a very attractive price. Look further and you will sometimes see that the price consists of that highlighted price PLUS a tab that could be anywhere from 0-30 plus dollars a month for 24 months.

DW's A5 up front cost was $0. But it came with a $10 tab...$10. month for 24 months. We would rather have paid the $240 upfront but it does not really matter since we have been Koodo customers for seven years and have no plans to switch. The tab does not commit us to Koodo for 24 months. If DW were to end her Koodo service she would be responsible for the unpaid tab balance.


----------



## andrewf

Regardless of fine print, I got an S9 for $0 last black friday, with 100k of PC points, on a medium tab. Over two years, you pay $360 for that tab. You can pay the tab off immediately. There is no such thing as a contract anymore, all terms can be broken by paying off the straight line balance owing on the device. However, I have a very good plan with Koodo and a 25% corporate discount.

I stopped by TMS recently to ask for an acquaintance who needed a new phone, and there were similar if not quite as hot deals. They don't post or advertise these, but you can find them on redflagdeals, or just stop by and ask.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf, doesn't this present a business opportunity where one could go around finding these amazing deals on normally expensive phones, break the various service plans, then reselling them (brand new phones)... where the phones can be purchased free & clear at a substantial discount to normal retail prices?

And if so, where is that business so that I can shop at them


----------



## james4beach

I don't like these smart phones -- in general -- due to the intentional, severe bloat in software and planned obsolescence. It took me a while to see this, but vendors and phone makers such as Google deliberately produce software which rapidly expands in memory needs and footprint. Apps constantly update and become larger, quickly crowding out your phone.

The resulting slowness _creates the perception_ that the phone is "old" and that you need a new one. Many people think their phones have gotten too slow, but really it's just due to poor software practices plus deliberate bloating from the big makers like Google.

Here's a quick example. I pulled out an old Moto E phone that I stopped using due to damage and compared to the current one I use. The only difference between them is that my current one has been getting updates and new apps. Both are streamlined down to bare minimum apps, nothing extra running. The "old" phone is basically stuck in its state from a year ago.

Old phone:
System uses 269 MB of the 1GB RAM
Apps use 163 MB of the 1 GB RAM
Notable apps: google services (33 MB), camera (2 MB), google keyboard (20 MB)

New phone:
System uses 361 MB of RAM
Apps use 191 MB of RAM
Notable apps: google services (62 M), camera (4 MB), google keyboard (33 MB)

That's just bloat due to new releases from software vendors. Both operating system and app memory usage is creeping higher. There's a *28% increase in baseline RAM usage* of the stripped-down, idle phones over a single year!

Besides this bloat issue, the other thing I hate about smart phones is the constant background activity of the various apps. It's rare to find an app that is well behaved. Most of them have significant CPU usage and data transfer even when sitting idle. Plus of course they are monitoring various stats on you (location, activities) and reporting home, constantly. That information then makes its way to the grey and black markets, possibly even contributing to identity theft and other crimes.


----------



## m3s

I’ve found that replacing the battery at mid life really brings a phone back to life. On the iPhones as the battery ages they are programmed to slow down to conserve the battery.. (really makes you want to buy a new phone, there was a lawsuit on this I think) iFixit usually sells a kit for like $20. The batteries do age with heavy use but the software slowing with it is questionable.

I keep considering Androids but every time I do I read they’re full of bloatware except for Googles Pixel and they all practically start out on outdated OS.. except for Pixel again. Androids have a really short OS upgrade support compared to iOS and to me that means shorter life. Can you not control what apps have access to on Android either? Can you not see what apps are overly active and what is wasting battery that shouldn’t? I restrict and delete apps like that


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> I keep considering Androids but every time I do I read they’re full of bloatware except for Googles Pixel and they all practically start out on outdated OS.. except for Pixel again. Androids have a really short OS upgrade support compared to iOS and to me that means shorter life. Can you not control what apps have access to on Android either? Can you not see what apps are overly active and what is wasting battery that shouldn’t? I restrict and delete apps like that


Moto G's are no bloatware phones, basic Android. And yes, you can restrict what apps have access to.


----------



## fireseeker

I agree with Cainvest. I have a Moto G (3rd gen) running Android 6.0 (Marshmallow). It has been a very cost-effective phone.
But I am becoming more troubled with Google's data-tracking, even for users who try to disable some of it.
I am considering switching to Apple for that reason, but such a move won't be cost-effective -- unless I place a very, very high value on improved privacy. And I just might.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I don't like these smart phones -- in general -- due to the intentional, severe bloat in software and planned obsolescence. It took me a while to see this, but vendors and phone makers such as Google deliberately produce software which rapidly expands in memory needs and footprint. Apps constantly update and become larger, quickly crowding out your phone.


Well, it's not really _"severe bloat in software and planned obsolescence"_.

But yeah, it is annoying, but this "bloat" is standard practice across all computers and across all time - not just smart phones. 

Myself, I build a new desktop computer about every 5 years using the latest and best hardware. That computer starts out fast as grease lightning and by the time 5 years goes by, not so much!

This bloat advancement has been going on since computers were invented. I worked my entire career in computer engineering and I saw this from the day computers were invented. One of the few advantages of being old.

Hardware gets better, and the software people (who are wringing their hands to take advantage of that new faster, better hardware) get to work. Their glee is palpable.

Once they're done, that computer does a bunch of new stuff that unfortunately doesn't operate quite a nicely on previous hardware versions.

That's all there is to it. 

I accept this, and build a new desktop every 5 years, and replace my smartphone every 3 years.

James, what do you see as a better solution? Shall we stop progress?

ltr


----------



## andrewf

I don't think the bloat is necessarily malicious. It's the same with browsers and websites. Modern browsers wouldn't even be able to run on high end workstations of 15 years ago. Application developers add 'features' and websites become heavier as the average computer becomes more capable.


----------



## m3s

cainvest said:


> Moto G's are no bloatware phones, basic Android. And yes, you can restrict what apps have access to.


Does it run on the latest Android OS? I’ve always been taught to keep an OS up to date for security reasons (work devices get banned from the work network if not updated constantly, and I mean within weeks) Yet I’ve seen comparison of Android vs iOS device updates and most Androids seem to be on outdated OS, whereas iOS devices are still updating much longer

With computers the bloat also seems more prevalent on Windows. I custom build gaming pcs and I’m impressed with my 8 year old macbook running the latest OS very smoothly even video editing (thanks to SSD and ram upgrades) I have noticed iPhones slow down after about 4 years usually with an OS update for the newer phone

The resale market for used macs and iPhones seems a lot stronger maybe because of this. People will still pay good money for an old mac but nobody will pay much anything for a used pc. Considering the resale I don’t see the overall costs that much different


----------



## cainvest

m3s said:


> Does it run on the latest Android OS? I’ve always been taught to keep an OS up to date for security reasons (work devices get banned from the work network if not updated constantly, and I mean within weeks) Yet I’ve seen comparison of Android vs iOS device updates and most Androids seem to be on outdated OS, whereas iOS devices are still updating much longer


They are usually good for 2-3 major OS updates, 2 if you're going the budget route.

lol, if you've got IT people like that, well .. good luck to you.


----------



## m3s

cainvest said:


> lol, if you've got IT people like that, well .. good luck to you.


Yea it’s annoying when you can’t connect to the VPN because you missed an update

But then the cyber guys show us what they can do if you don’t. And then the int guys brief us on all the new known vulnerabilities, even with stuff we all use

I would consider a phone that can’t update a brick nowadays


----------



## james4beach

Just because software is bloating and growing in size, and slowing down, doesn't mean it's getting better. Take Google Maps on Android for example. This was a perfectly good program a few years ago. It did what I wanted: looked up an address, found a path.

Today in comparison the program is significantly larger and _much_ slower. Sure, it has all kinds of bells and whistles, but I don't use them and don't want them. There should be a way to disable them but there isn't... Google Maps insists on showing you nearby (sponsored) restaurants, because it's an advertising platform. They don't prioritize usability and don't care that the program is slower and much bigger. Trying zooming in and out on your smartphone Google Maps. You'll see that the program chooses to render icons and various ad placements for things... all of that takes processing time & power.

The smartphone bloat partly comes from the fact it's an advertising platform, and the developers keep stuffing more junk and data mining into it. So I disagree with the assertion that this is bloat due to feature enhancements and improvements... I think it's more about marketing. Plus, just a very poor quality of software overall.

My desktop computer is running a box that was released in 2015, and I bought it in 2016. It's now 4 years past its release date and is just as fast as the moment I got it. Yes it's true the programs have become somewhat larger on average over time, but not to the degree smart phone apps grow in size. And just because a program is larger (in code size) does not automatically make it slower. Well designed software should _not_ experience performance degradation just because there are a few new features.

My desktop computer also doesn't feel slower. That's probably because the programs I'm running don't load up on more and more advertising and data mining. That kind of choice doesn't really exist in the smart phone world, as far as I know.

A big reason Windows systems tend to follow the same bloat/slowdown is also not because of progress or advancements. It's because of more junky software clogging up the system, including adware. It has nothing to do with "progress" -- it's because junk fills up the computer.


----------



## james4beach

By the way, I looked at Amazon Prime Day deals on various smart phones (currently in the US) and although I spent over 2 hours researching options, I didn't like anything that I saw. They're all either too expensive or don't have the capabilities I want.

Most of them seem outlandishly expensive to me.


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## Retired Peasant

james4beach said:


> ... it's an advertising platform...


Of course, you do know why it's free to download, right?


----------



## james4beach

Retired Peasant said:


> Of course, you do know why it's free to download, right?


Yes absolutely. But the equipment isn't free -- and it should be! Don't you find it a bit offensive that people are expected to pay $500 just to buy an advertising platform? Sure it has some conveniences, but given how much these things are about marketing... I almost think the companies should be _paying me_ to have one of their devices in my life.

My desktop/laptop computers are different. They're mine, and they do what I tell them to do. The linux system I'm using right now isn't running a thousand background tasks to mine my consumer behaviour and report it back to silicon valley.


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Yes absolutely. But the equipment isn't free -- and it should be! Don't you find it a bit offensive that people are expected to pay $500 just to buy an advertising platform?


I think it'll be either you put up with ads or you buy the apps, your choice. Most apps will become "ad free" when you buy them.
And really, how much battery life is lost or data is used in the background apps anyways?


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> By the way, I looked at Amazon Prime Day deals on various smart phones (currently in the US) and although I spent over 2 hours researching options, I didn't like anything that I saw. They're all either too expensive or don't have the capabilities I want.
> 
> Most of them seem outlandishly expensive to me.


Honestly, what doesn't this Galaxy S9 have? Prime day, good price and every feature you'd ever want.

ltr


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## james4beach

That's nearly $600 ! From my perspective that's an unacceptable price for a marketing device that I don't fully own and control.

Not to mention how often these things get broken and lost. There's no way I will carry around a $600 device in my pocket so casually.


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## AltaRed

I guess it is a sure thing you don't have a $10k Rolex on your wrist then?


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## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> That's nearly $600 ! From my perspective that's an unacceptable price for a marketing device that I don't fully own and control.
> 
> Not to mention how often these things get broken and lost. There's no way I will carry around a $600 device in my pocket so casually.


It's a phone, it's a personal computer. I suppose there's a few commercials, ignore them or get an ad blocker. 

Why don't you fully own it? It's an unlocked phone - you do fully own it.

If you don't like commercials, stop using "free apps" and pay for them.

Why would it get broken or lost - you're a grown *** man - don't break it or lose it.

Top of the line phone for $600 - it ain't that much for what it does.

Heck, you couldn't buy a camera this good not long ago for the price of this entire device.........

You say you love Linux. Well, the Galaxy S9 runs Android, which uses the Linux kernel. Android is just a framework executing on top of the Linux kernel and is designed primarily to accommodate touchscreen mobile devices such as smartphones and tablets. But, basically it's just Linux. It's up to you what you do with it. If you load a bunch of free apps, than yeah, they'll track you and advertise as much as they can.

Personally, sometime I like the targeted ads. They're the ones with the stuff I'm interested in. If not, I don't read them.

ltr


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## andrewf

james4beach said:


> That's nearly $600 ! From my perspective that's an unacceptable price for a marketing device that I don't fully own and control.
> 
> Not to mention how often these things get broken and lost. There's no way I will carry around a $600 device in my pocket so casually.


I have never lost or broken a phone. You learn to take care of them.


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## gardner

The last phone I bought was from Kijiji. A Galaxy S4. I put a 128GB SD card in it and a new battery from Amazon. It runs like a champ and cost $170 all-in. If someone rips it off me, my main concern will be the photos I haven't gotten off it yet.


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Not to mention how often these things get broken and lost. There's no way I will carry around a $600 device in my pocket so casually.


I know someone like that, almost always breaks his phone (or tablet) glass within a month of having it.


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## andrewf

gardner said:


> The last phone I bought was from Kijiji. A Galaxy S4. I put a 128GB SD card in it and a new battery from Amazon. It runs like a champ and cost $170 all-in. If someone rips it off me, my main concern will be the photos I haven't gotten off it yet.


I suggest using a service like Google Photos to bake up your images. You can get 10GB of photo storage for free of original resolution, or unlimited of 'high quality' compressed images.


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## AltaRed

andrewf said:


> I suggest using a service like Google Photos to bake up your images. You can get 10GB of photo storage for free of original resolution, or unlimited of 'high quality' compressed images.


^+1 to Google Photo.


----------



## ian

I sense that the prices in Canada are coming down. Especially since phones are no longer locked. People are buying them anywhere and everywhere. The carriers must be feeling it. My spouses phone was a special from Koodo. Mine was from Amazon.

The tables are turned. Now the carriers really have to compete in two different-hardware and service. Consumers will win. It is good to see this finally happening in Canada. It has been a long time coming. There is still a ways to go on the service offerings.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> I suggest using a service like Google Photos to bake up your images. You can get 10GB of photo storage for free of original resolution, or unlimited of 'high quality' compressed images.


Just as easy to copy them to your computer via usb or sd card. It's also a good time to weed out bad shots and delete them!


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## agent99

AltaRed said:


> I guess it is a sure thing you don't have a $10k Rolex on your wrist then?


Why would anyone? It's just expensive jewelry. Jame's Moto e displays the time and is likely more accurate than a Rolex


----------



## like_to_retire

gardner said:


> The last phone I bought was from Kijiji. A Galaxy S4. I put a 128GB SD card in it and a new battery from Amazon. It runs like a champ and cost $170 all-in. If someone rips it off me, my main concern will be the photos I haven't gotten off it yet.


I'm confused. I have a Galaxy phone and when I click the shutter, regardless of where I'm at, the photo is already accessible from my desktop in Google Photos? 

ltr


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## agent99

cainvest said:


> Just as easy to copy them to your computer via usb or sd card. It's also a good time to weed out bad shots and delete them!


I try to keep photos off my computer. Just waste space on SSD drives and if you have disk failure you lose everything. I still use Dropbox for photos. I avoid Google Photos and Drive. Had a serious problem with them losing everything once. I do use Onedrive for documents. Makes so much sense to store the stuff you don't want to lose on a cloud service.

Like James, my phone is a Motorola 2nd ed Moto E. Good phone, but limited storage (8Gb). Most apps won't use the SD card and the system uses up 3Gb of the 8GB available. I at times look for something better, but as a very casual smartphone user, I want something under $200 with 16-32Gb and several versions later Android OS (Moto E Max is Marshmallow 6.0). I did find them from Lenovo on-line, but I would rather buy locally. (lenovo bought Motorola cell tech, I believe)


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> I try to keep photos off my computer. Just waste space on SSD drives and if you have disk failure you lose everything. I still use Dropbox for photos. I avoid Google Photos and Drive. Had a serious problem with them losing everything once. I do use Onedrive for documents. Makes so much sense to store the stuff you don't want to lose on a cloud service.


For me it makes much more sense, for stuff I don't want to lose, to back it up myself. If it's really important stuff, one HD copy and one USB stick copy. Storage is ultra-cheap, if your computer HD dies just re-copy the stuff from your phone to a new HD, even get one of those external USB ones that you only turn on to make backups.

The cloud is nice for sharing or anywhere, any device access but that's as far as I go with it.


----------



## AltaRed

agent99 said:


> AltaRed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it is a sure thing you don't have a $10k Rolex on your wrist then?
> 
> 
> 
> Why would anyone? It's just expensive jewelry. Jame's Moto e displays the time and is likely more accurate than a Rolex
Click to expand...

You didn't get the gentle ribbing?


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> Just as easy to copy them to your computer via usb or sd card. It's also a good time to weed out bad shots and delete them!


Not just as easy, as Google Photos automatically backs up photos from your device, and your photos are at risk if your computer fails.


----------



## cainvest

andrewf said:


> Not just as easy, as Google Photos automatically backs up photos from your device, and your photos are at risk if your computer fails.


True enough, not quite as easy but close. Likely the cloud is good for many people that can't handle doing regular backups. Most don't even backup stuff on their computers, seen it many times, lost everything.

Also, agent99 lost all photos on google so ... not a perfect solution either.


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## m3s

Google and facebook monetize your photos. When you sign up you typically gave them permission to access and reproduce your photos globally. I'm not sure what google does (they may not even do anything nefarious to date) but facebook has been known to use personal photos in ads and for facial recognition tech etc

I just pay the $1.50/month for encrypted storage that nobody else can view or legally reproduce for their own monetary benefits. The same $1.50 also backs up documents and files encrypted in the cloud. Google already gets a lot of my data like emails and location but I try not to give them everything


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## AltaRed

Don't know why photos would be lost on Google Photos if 'back up and sync' has been selected appropriately. But apparently it can happen. If one wants too, one can dump everything to One Drive. Tons of space and all synced to all devices if one wants it set up that way. I prefer One Drive and Dropbox myself.


----------



## gardner

like_to_retire said:


> the photo is already accessible from my desktop in Google Photos


I don't have data on my normal phone connection, only calling and SMS. And in any event, I send as little as possible to Google. I definitely don't let it suck all my photos into the cloud.


----------



## like_to_retire

gardner said:


> I don't have data on my normal phone connection, only calling and SMS. And in any event, I send as little as possible to Google. I definitely don't let it suck all my photos into the cloud.


But your cell phone must have wi-fi on at home, and as soon as it gets that socket connected it will transfer the photos to Google Photos - yes, no? 

If you go to photos.google.com/login and login are your photos not synced there?

ltr


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## fireseeker

m3s said:


> Google and facebook monetize your photos. When you sign up you typically gave them permission to access and reproduce your photos globally. I'm not sure what google does (they may not even do anything nefarious to date) but facebook has been known to use personal photos in ads and for facial recognition tech etc
> 
> I just pay the $1.50/month for encrypted storage that nobody else can view or legally reproduce for their own monetary benefits. The same $1.50 also backs up documents and files encrypted in the cloud. Google already gets a lot of my data like emails and location but I try not to give them everything


m3s, to whom to you pay this $1.50 for encrypted storage?
(I am also trying to limit my sharing with Big Brother Google.)


----------



## andrewf

cainvest said:


> True enough, not quite as easy but close. Likely the cloud is good for many people that can't handle doing regular backups. Most don't even backup stuff on their computers, seen it many times, lost everything.
> 
> Also, agent99 lost all photos on google so ... not a perfect solution either.


Not to be unkind, but this is probably user confusion/error. Cloud backup doesn't randomly eat photos.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> I sense that the prices in Canada are coming down. Especially since phones are no longer locked. People are buying them anywhere and everywhere. The carriers must be feeling it. My spouses phone was a special from Koodo. Mine was from Amazon.
> 
> The tables are turned. Now the carriers really have to compete in two different-hardware and service. Consumers will win. It is good to see this finally happening in Canada. It has been a long time coming. There is still a ways to go on the service offerings.


Agreed! This is an excellent change.


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## Retired Peasant

like_to_retire said:


> But your cell phone must have wi-fi on at home, and as soon as it gets that socket connected it will transfer the photos to Google Photos - yes, no?
> 
> If you go to photos.google.com/login and login are your photos not synced there?
> 
> ltr


No, not for me. I too don't have data on my phone; when it connects to wifi at home, it doesn't transfer anything to Google Photos. I've never set it to do so, nor have I set it not to. It must be something one sets up.


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## like_to_retire

Retired Peasant said:


> No, not for me. I too don't have data on my phone; when it connects to wifi at home, it doesn't transfer anything to Google Photos. I've never set it to do so, nor have I set it not to. It must be something one sets up.


OK yeah, I forgot that in the phone app "Google Photos" I have the setting "sync" enabled. I also have it set to not transfer over cellular data, only wifi. 

Anyway, it's very convenient compared to the old days of getting out a USB cable and all that stuff so I can see the photos on my home computer.

ltr


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## kcowan

gardner said:


> The last phone I bought was from Kijiji. A Galaxy S4. I put a 128GB SD card in it and a new battery from Amazon. It runs like a champ and cost $170 all-in. If someone rips it off me, my main concern will be the photos I haven't gotten off it yet.


My first smartphone was a samsung that was on special for $67. A couple of years later, I bought a used iPhone 4S off Kijiji for $100 in 2012. Still using it. No ads. Everything automatically backed up in iCloud. I bought a new battery last year for $45.

I believe you can get 4S for nothing now. They are sometimes accepted as trade-ins but no money is paid for them. Check whether your local dealer has any. Many newer apps require iOS 10. But Waze and Paybyphone work. In addition to Safari, I run Chrome on it because it shares bookmarks with Windows and iPad.


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## AltaRed

like_to_retire said:


> OK yeah, I forgot that in the phone app "Google Photos" I have the setting "sync" enabled. I also have it set to not transfer over cellular data, only wifi.
> 
> Anyway, it's very convenient compared to the old days of getting out a USB cable and all that stuff so I can see the photos on my home computer.
> 
> ltr


+1. Most, if not all, apps that allow syncing must be given permissions to do things. And one has to have the app on all devices being synced. I actually have Google Photos app configured to automatically back up to Google Drive as well. Just like I have One Drive set up on my PC to automatically back up all my PC files into One Drive and synced to my One Drive app on my phone.

Hint: If one keeps all their phone photos in Google Photo and synced to all devices, that does not mean that all those photos automatically sync to One Drive if One Drive is where one keeps all their stand alone camera photos or photos received from a third party. One Drive doesn't auto reach into the Google Photos app for obvious reasons. If I want a copy of my phone photos in One Drive, I 'download' all Google Photos into a Pictures folder on the PC and One Drive picks them all up. That is double kill obviously with photos in 2 places.

@Andrewf: I agree things just do not get 'lost' or 'eliminated'. Usually user error of some sort, and a common one is where photos are shared across accounts. My cousin had that issue about one year ago (they are Apple users). She had all her iPad photos in iCloud. Her iPad died and she got a new one. She couldn't retrieve/find her photos in the cloud. Turns out they were being backed up to her husband's icloud account and once she logged in to his account... there were the photos. Technology is just complicated enough to confuse/thwart simplicity but obviously for privacy purposes, settings have to be 'proactively' opted into, rather than opting out. Just like any new app on a phone asking for 'permissions'. Even for an engineer like me, certain settings can become confusing.


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## like_to_retire

AltaRed said:


> Hint: If one keeps all their phone photos in Google Photo and synced to all devices, that does not mean that all those photos automatically sync to One Drive if One Drive is where one keeps all their stand alone camera photos or photos received from a third party. One Drive doesn't auto reach into the Google Photos app for obvious reasons. If I want a copy of my phone photos in One Drive, I 'download' all Google Photos into a Pictures folder on the PC and One Drive picks them all up. That is double kill obviously with photos in 2 places.


Interesting. I just went into Google Photos on my PC and I see the syncing rules may be changing. In settings it has a new note there that says:


_Google Drive
Syncing photos & videos from Google Drive is changing. Learn more.

Recent changes to Google Photos & Google Drive
What’s happening?

Starting July 10, 2019, Google Photos and Google Drive will no longer automatically sync. We’re making this change to simplify how things work between the two services. You can read more about the changes in our blog post. 

When you upload or delete photos in Google Drive or Google Photos, changes won’t reflect in the other product.
On photos.google.com, you can use a new feature called “Upload from Drive”, which lets you manually choose photos and videos from Drive to copy into Photos. 
This feature may not be available for everyone until the end of July 2019. 
Once items are copied into Photos, items are not connected between the two products.
If you copy Original quality items from Drive into Photos, they will count towards your storage in both products. Learn more.
These changes are for all devices and platforms, like iOS and Android. 

Your existing photos and videos are still in Google Photos and Google Drive. Google Photos backup will continue to work as before. 
_

ltr


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## AltaRed

Yes, I received an email not long ago on that item. Generally speaking, I have no photos in Google Drive that I would need to upload...so that is moot. FWIW, I rarely use Google Drive anyway. OTOH, if I want my Google Photos to also be in One Drive (maybe yes, maybe no), I can do that with a download.


----------



## like_to_retire

AltaRed said:


> Generally speaking, I have no photos in Google Drive that I would need to upload...so that is moot. FWIW, I rarely use Google Drive anyway. OTOH, if I want my Google Photos to also be in One Drive (maybe yes, maybe no), I can do that with a download.


Yeah, I think we use the system about the same way. I don't store anything much in Google Drive. If I want to preserve photos that have been automatically stored on Google Photos from my cell camera, I just download them to my PC disk and then manually back those up to a memory stick.

There seems to be some paranoia on this thread with regard to privacy concerns using this backup feature, but my understanding is that by default, pictures uploaded from your camera or otherwise to Google Photos storage are only accessible with your own Google account password, and to allow others to access specific pictures or even entire albums, you need to manually share them. 

It doesn't concern me actually, there isn't anything about myself or my pictures that I have to hide from Google, but I understand people are often wary of anything Google does for free. As the saying goes, _"if the service is free you are not the customer, you are the product"_. And the product of course is your personal information. But they already know who I am because I have a Google account that is pretty much required if you have an Android phone. So they already know who I am, and so I accept that this as the price we pay to use free services online. 

ltr


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## AltaRed

Google already gives me a monthly summary of where I have been, how far I have traveled, for how many hours, etc. 

But cant tell me how many trips I made to the toilet yet


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## james4beach

AltaRed said:


> Google already gives me a monthly summary of where I have been, how far I have traveled, for how many hours, etc.


It does? Google doesn't tell me that.

I don't think you should let Google have that much information on you. It's a risk to your confidentiality and privacy, and even potentially a risk to your personal liberties. In legal cases, information like this can be used against you. I believe it's happened in divorce cases, for example.

Authoritarian regimes like China's also use exactly this information to round up and jail ethnic groups and those believed to be contrary to the political powers. I think it's absolutely a bad idea to let information that sensitive be floating around for a corporation & government to see.

If you want to think of it in economic terms, this is a weighted cost/benefit calculation. On a scale of -100 to 100, the benefit of goodies like constantly syncing and tracking everything you do is maybe +20 to me. The danger of the information being stolen or abused, potentially to violate your civil liberties and denying you freedom, is -100 or maybe even "off-scale low" meaning that it's such a severe downside that it far outweighs any little benefits.

Me: I don't use google photos. I disable sync on all accounts. I use a cable to transfer photos to my real computer (desktop PC) where I organize them. They don't depend on the cloud. I use a fake google account not related to my personal name on the smart phone. I've also disabled google's tracking of location history (which is an option they started providing after they were caught doing it)... I work in computer security and do consulting work related to government.


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## AltaRed

I want location services for various reasons including using my phone as a GPS, location of businesses near me, and I want syncing. So they are welcome to all the location drivel about me as they wish. If they are that hungry for the life of a 70 year old, good luck with that....


----------



## agent99

AltaRed said:


> You didn't get the gentle ribbing?


I did, but I just added a little ribbing of my own. 

I expect that you do have a Rolex? Many executives used to get one along with the golden handshake


----------



## agent99

andrewf said:


> Not just as easy, as Google Photos automatically backs up photos from your device, and your photos are at risk if your computer fails.


I think that is what happened to me. Can't recall exact details, but I had failure on my laptop. Google Drive/Photos took that to mean that I had deleted all my files, so deleted them from cloud storage as well. I luckily did have anything that was important backed up on an external hard drive. It took me a while to get everything back together, but I eliminated Google Drive/Photos on new installation.


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## AltaRed

@ Agent99: Sorry to disappoint. No expensive watch here though spouse gave me a $250 Citizen several years ago. Does that count?


----------



## AltaRed

agent99 said:


> I think that is what happened to me. Can't recall exact details, but I had failure on my laptop. Google Drive/Photos took that to mean that I had deleted all my files, so deleted them from cloud storage as well. I luckily did have anything that was important backed up on an external hard drive. It took me a while to get everything back together, but I eliminated Google Drive/Photos on new installation.


That should not happened without a direct request to delete. That said, there should have been an 'undelete' option by logging into your Google account BEFORE installing a new application of Google Photos. Not sure about that though.

A general article (with vested interest) about Sync vs Backup vs Storage https://www.backblaze.com/blog/sync-vs-backup-vs-storage/

A similar article about One Drive (has to be a proactive Delete to actually delete the cloud file) https://forums.windowscentral.com/windows-10/429568-onedrive-sync-what-if-my-pc-fails.html


----------



## like_to_retire

AltaRed said:


> I want location services for various reasons including using my phone as a GPS, location of businesses near me, and I want syncing. So they are welcome to all the location drivel about me as they wish. If they are that hungry for the life of a 70 year old, good luck with that....


Yeah seriously, if my data is important to them, fill your boots. What I get in return is invaluable to me. The tin hats can go around being lost without GPS and hook up cables to transfer their data all they want. They don't want my data to put me in jail, they want to sell me ****, and I can decide to buy or not - case closed.

ltr


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## james4beach

I think what you're missing is that the information can turn out to be more damaging to you (and maybe your family & associates) than you might assume.

And by the way, wealthy 70 year olds *are* a potential target of criminals.

By the way, the government can't even securely store extremely personal information about people who work in military & intelligence agencies (see: OPM data breach). Equifax can't keep personal profiles safe either. If that information can be stolen, I think you should assume that anything google knows about you, or that any of these apps know about you, can also be stolen by criminals.

You're assuming the only risk to you is marketing and selling you stuff. There are far bigger dangers than this. An investigator with a govt regulator told me his theory a couple days ago that overseas shops may be reselling stolen private data, to assist criminals in conducting directed attacks and identify theft.


----------



## like_to_retire

james4beach said:


> I think what you're missing is that the information can turn out to be more damaging to you (and maybe your family & associates) than you might assume.
> 
> And by the way, wealthy 70 year olds *are* a potential target of criminals.


I feel there is a lot more damaging information that could be hacked from places like credit card companies, or banks, or government agencies compared to what they could get from Google.

The best Google has on anyone is where they've been. 

Heck, that information might get me out of trouble if I'm accused of something, while they'll be dragging away poor james4beach in handcuffs because he can't prove where he was since his location history was switched off.

I think you're being overly paranoid.

ltr


----------



## agent99

AltaRed said:


> That should not happened without a direct request to delete. That said, there should have been an 'undelete' option by logging into your Google account BEFORE installing a new application of Google Photos. Not sure about that though.


You are right - it should not have happened. But it did. And not just to me - many others had similar problems. This was a while back just after Google drive had had one of it's "upgrades". IIRC, the undelete had to be done withing some time frame. I was away in USA doing other things, and by time I got windows back working, I could no longer retrieve any files. At the time, Google seemed to know about the problem, but where not able to help in any way. By now, perhaps they have improved their cloud system, but from the recent email, it seems they are still messing with it. I never could understand why they changed it's name to Backup and Sync. It isn't and never was a backup system. Anyway, it still resides on my computer & phone. But I don't use it.


----------



## gardner

like_to_retire said:


> If you go to photos.google.com/login and login are your photos not synced there?


The few that it sent before I realized it was syncing them and shut off sync, and a few that I have explicitly sent since then. But I do not give it general permission to sync ANYTHING when I do not manually ask it to. There are sync settings to control this, as well as general background data restrictions that I use.


----------



## james4beach

I went for a walk today with another young guy who, like me, works in the computer security industry. He does a lot of work with the US government.

He said that as these smart phones become more intrusive, he really enjoys being disconnected and going for hikes out in distant areas with no coverage. He says it's a big relief to be away from the constant buzzing and beeping of the phone, and all the demands for attention, and the security danger.

Another guy I talked to today said that some foreign countries now ask to inspect visitors' smart phones and will infect them with spyware. After this infection, your phone turns into a tracking and spying device working for the foreign government. He is a reliable source, another expert in the field.

I know some of you guys have no concerns about these things, but I can tell you that others in my field of work -- we specialize in security & reliable computing -- really dislike these smart phones.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> He said that as these smart phones become more intrusive, he really enjoys being disconnected and going for hikes out in distant areas with no coverage. He says it's a big relief to be away from the constant buzzing and beeping of the phone, and all the demands for attention, and the security danger.


Ummm .. current phones do have an off button right?


----------



## AltaRed

I agree. Just power the phone off. Simple!


----------



## james4beach

I put mine on Airplane mode pretty often. It's an easy way to turn off all transceivers, and also lets you restore service pretty fast (instead of powering off / on)


----------



## fireseeker

james4beach said:


> I put mine on Airplane mode pretty often. It's an easy way to turn off all transceivers, and also lets you restore service pretty fast (instead of powering off / on)


James, in your field what do you and your colleagues think of Apple vs Android from a privacy perspective?


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> I put mine on Airplane mode pretty often. It's an easy way to turn off all transceivers, and also lets you restore service pretty fast (instead of powering off / on)


I just use the "do not disturb" mode, normally with a specified amount of time so it turns back on by itself.


----------



## james4beach

fireseeker said:


> James, in your field what do you and your colleagues think of Apple vs Android from a privacy perspective?


If we're talking privacy from the big corps (Apple/Google) and government, there's no difference. Both collect plenty of information on you.

However, my colleagues think the Apple platform is safer against non-government hackers because the application ecosystem seems to have better controls, and there are fewer rogue applications. So if you're talking about privacy from criminals, the Apple platform may be safer.


----------



## fireseeker

james4beach said:


> If we're talking privacy from the big corps (Apple/Google) and government, there's no difference. Both collect plenty of information on you.
> 
> However, my colleagues think the Apple platform is safer against non-government hackers because the application ecosystem seems to have better controls, and there are fewer rogue applications. Non-govt hackers seem to prefer going after Android. So if you're talking about privacy from criminals & hackers, the Apple platform may be safer.


Thanks James.
It's not the rogue actors I worry about -- it's the concern that if I am using discounted tech that I am the product. So, mostly concerned about the digital profiles being built around me.
My current phone is a Moto G. I am super happy with it -- the price is right and the Android experience is clean and stripped down. I have turned off all the profiling configurations I can, including location. But Google does remind me of the Eye of Sauron.


----------



## james4beach

fireseeker said:


> Thanks James.
> It's not the rogue actors I worry about -- it's the concern that if I am using discounted tech that I am the product. So, mostly concerned about the digital profiles being built around me.
> My current phone is a Moto G. I am super happy with it -- the price is right and the Android experience is clean and stripped down. I have turned off all the profiling configurations I can, including location. But Google does remind me of the Eye of Sauron.


You are definitely the product on both platforms, and Apple is just as aggressive collecting private data, and building a profile on you (as far as I know).


----------



## kcowan

I believe that Google is committed to use your data to sell to you. I don't believe that Apple does not as much.


----------



## Frank Drebin

This thread is looking like its venturing off topic a bit but I'm just going to throw an endorsement out for the Motorola G6 that you can get from Amazon for $220. I came from an LGG6 and this hardly misses a beat for 1/3 the cost.


----------



## cainvest

Moto G7 unlocked is under $300 in Canada now.


----------



## Earl

The Moto G6 is $155 at Costco: https://www.costco.ca/Motorola-Moto-G6-Play-Unlocked-Smartphone-.product.100462556.html


----------



## agent99

Earl said:


> The Moto G6 is $155 at Costco: https://www.costco.ca/Motorola-Moto-G6-Play-Unlocked-Smartphone-.product.100462556.html


Specs are important. 

That Costco price is for 16Gb internal storage, 2Gb RAM and likely single SIM. 

At Staples, G6 with 32Gb, 3Gb RAM and dual SIMs is $249.99 https://www.staples.ca/products/2948354-en-motorola-moto-g6-play-32gb-dual-sim-57

I have a Moto 2 (2nd ed) with 8Gb. Really limited for apps. I hardly use it, but if I upgraded, I think I would want at least 32Gb.


----------



## andrewf

Koodo has Galaxy S9 for $0 + $15/month for 24 months (= $360). Depending on where you buy, like The Mobile Shop, you can get PC points in addition. However, Koodo just changed their policy so that if you leave before the 24 month term, you have to repay a $695 device credit. Previously you could buy a sim and activate for a few days on a plan, then cancel and repay the $360 tab. I think they are skirting the spirit of the CRTC ruling on no cancellation penalties, by couching it as an upfront discount if you don't cancel. Effectively the same thing.

https://www.koodomobile.com/phones/samsung-galaxy-s9


----------



## james4beach

andrewf if your details are accurate, sounds like it's worth a CRTC complaint


----------



## kcowan

I am looking for a cheap plan with data and text that allows vacation disconnect with my own device? The iPhone 8 Plus is fully paid in September with Bell.


----------



## Earl

agent99 said:


> Specs are important.
> 
> That Costco price is for 16Gb internal storage, 2Gb RAM and likely single SIM.
> 
> At Staples, G6 with 32Gb, 3Gb RAM and dual SIMs is $249.99 https://www.staples.ca/products/2948354-en-motorola-moto-g6-play-32gb-dual-sim-57
> 
> I have a Moto 2 (2nd ed) with 8Gb. Really limited for apps. I hardly use it, but if I upgraded, I think I would want at least 32Gb.


Pfft, I say the specs on that Costco phone are good enough. Why do people need to install a zillion different apps? I can understand buying the latest and greatest if you are a high earner who can easily afford it, but there are lots of people who are struggling financially (students, fresh grads with low paying jobs, etc) who seem convinced that they need the latest high end phone and spend $1000 on it (or get locked into one of those ridiculous 36 month terms cause they get a "free" (not really) phone that way. The G6 Play will browse the web, stream netflix, take pictures, run popular apps like uber/whatsapp/etc, what more do people need?


----------



## agent99

Earl said:


> Pfft, The G6 Play will browse the web, stream netflix, take pictures, run popular apps like uber/whatsapp/etc, what more do people need?


Pfft?? What did that imply?

Quoting a price without specs does not mean much when it comes to phones. Nobody said you should buy a higher spec phone - just suggesting you compare more than the price. 

I have an 8Gb Moto 2e. It does most of what I need although I barely use it. It would be more useful if it had more memory. That barebones G6 might work for me. But if I was upgrading, I would compare with alternatives with different/better specs.


----------



## m3s

When I consider how much value I get out of something for its cost.. smartphones blow pretty much everything else out of the water.

For Apple say $1000 less $200 resale after 3 years (I typically get 4 years and higher resale after DIY replacing the $20 battery mid way and keeping the screen protected etc) we're talking under $20/month for something that I carry almost everywhere and use constantly.. even when I'm sleeping (not to mention replaces countless electronics and helps me find deals etc etc etc)

For Android say $400 with a year or 2 of software support at best and we're talking say $15/month. In my case I don't see any saving value in these cheaper phones yet I see significant security, convenience value in premium phones. Not to mention all the niceties like better photos and smoother software integration which also adds value for me 

I have my mobile bill down to $12 USD/month now and it's automatically $0 if I happen to be away and use 0 data or just another $12 if I go over 1 GB (rare unless I'm travelling extensively). It comes with free automatic wi-fi pretty much anywhere urban in the US nowadays so data use is typically very low (USA mobile plans rule, there's also more expensive plans for unlimited data in Canada/USA/Mexico) 

There are far better places to worry about money imho. Vehicles, houses, toys etc all sink far more money for what you get when all things considered (longevity, resale, usage etc)


----------



## kcowan

m3s said:


> I have my mobile bill down to $12 USD/month now and it's automatically $0 if I happen to be away and use 0 data or just another $12 if I go over 1 GB (rare unless I'm travelling extensively). It comes with free automatic wi-fi pretty much anywhere urban in the US nowadays so data use is typically very low (USA mobile plans rule, there's also more expensive plans for unlimited data in Canada/USA/Mexico)


I agree with your post. I find many people are penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to cell phones. A buddy goes to Seattle to get a new phone for his Google FI service and he gets great deals on data, just not very good phone and messaging! What carrier/plan are you on? It sounds like what I am looking for! Thanks.


----------



## m3s

kcowen- I was going to recommend you check the new cricket unlimited plan (US/Mexico/Canada unlimited talk/text/data for $50 usd) cricket is prepaid MVNO AT&T network and very hassle free activation/vacation pause/upgrades etc (to cancel just don't pay - to change plans just make a few clicks - no call center bs or fees etc) I was on the 5GB $35 plan and would upgrade to the unlimited plan only for travel (pro-rated and instant free upgrade/downgrade online) Limitations were that they block personal hotspot unless you pay $60/month and you have to do 50% of usage in the USA.



> Mexico and Canada roaming includes calling/texting in Mexico, Canada and between the U.S., Mexico & Canada Also includes use of the high-speed data allotment from your plan while traveling in Mexico and Canada. Actual data speeds vary by device and location. International data roaming may be reduced to 2G speeds. E*ach number of texts, number of voice minutes, and data usage sent, received or used while in Canada cannot exceed 50% of the total number of texts or voice minutes or data usage (including domestic use) in a month for any consecutive three month period or service may be terminated. *Roaming services not guaranteed, limited coverage in select markets outside the U.S. Other restrictions apply. Subject to Cricket International Terms & Conditions.


Now I just switched to the $12 xfinity 1GB mobile postpaid plan MVNO on Verizon network with the automatic free wifi hotspots and automatic vacation/travel pause. First problem is you need an active xfinity internet plan.. or maybe know an american infiltrator with an xfinity internet plan :suspicion: Second problem is I don't see an option for Canada or Mexico, which will be much less convenient for travel (swapping sim cards etc) Personal hotspot is also throttled to 600kbps. They let you share mobile data with capable tablets and watches for $10/month.. might as well use hotspot/wifi

USA has a lot of interesting MVNO pre-paid options.. some of them for example can use all major networks like Straight talk, Google fi, tracfone, Net10. For travel I also looked at wing mobile $20/month 1GB and $13/GB international data at 3G speeds in 135+ countries. Hah that might actually be a deal for most Canadian if they don't mind the 3G speeds? If I remember cricket, at&t and wing mobile are the only ones I found with international data plans so far


----------



## kcowan

Thanks M3S. ATT had a Mexico plan that worked for a year until they put the roaming quota on for US and Canada. Since we spend no time in the US, I supect we will be continuing with a Canadian and a Mexican account.


----------



## ian

You can never have too much memory or storage.


----------



## james4beach

I haven't found a great Canadian plan yet. I'm currently using a US-based plan which is designed for cross-border use in US / Mexico / Canada plus international travel. T-Mobile, but I don't know if they still offer my particular plan.

It's costing me $70/month in CAD, provides 2 GB of high-speed data (which works very well because it actually jumps between Bell and Rogers across Canada) and then unlimited data, though the speed drops after 2 GB. Works great with tethering, at LTE ... I get something ridiculous like 50 Mbps in most Canadian & US cities. Unlimited voice calls and texts to US, Canada, Mexico, which I do a lot of.

It also works extremely well in all countries I've travelled to, also with unlimited free data and texts in any country I roam in, and a low cost per minute for calls. It's a beast of a plan. The unlimited data & tethering worldwide in any country has made my life extremely easy. Bills are always predictable, with only possible extra charges from voice calls per min when overseas.

No quotas on data, it's truly unlimited, even roaming in odd corners of the world. Sure it's not fast once the 2 GB is depleted, but even slow data is far superior to no data, when you desperately need access to book a hotel, find directions, etc.

I know $70 is steep (it's 53 USD) but I never have to swap SIMs, get best networks and coverage across Canada, and always have unlimited free data. I've even been using high speed data in ridiculous places like northwest Ontario near Kenora and rural MB, where I've never had any service in the past with other carriers.

Does anyone know of any Canadian plan that can hop between Rogers & Bell, piggy-backing on both? My current experience has been very pleasant. By combining them, I have amazing coverage.


----------



## m3s

james4beach said:


> Does anyone know of any Canadian plan that can hop between Rogers & Bell, piggy-backing on both? My current experience has been very pleasant. By combining them, I have amazing coverage.


Don't know of any Canadian plan like that yet - but yea Google Fi and increasing number of MVNOs do so in the US. I considered getting a Pixel just for the native Google Fi. For example the last place I worked the Verizon coverage was weak and the new place the AT&T coverage is weak. When you're livin on the edge it's key!

Cricket international plan cost me about the same ($50 usd) but I was dropping it to $35 usd non international unless I was in Canada/Mexico. I havn't even looked at the big telcos anymore until they adopt the free/easy/instant plan changes from their constant hidden fees and call center hassle to accomplish a simple change.

With my unlocked phone I can easily hop from pre-paid deal to deal with very little hassle, and often with signup bonus like $50 visa or referral bonus etc. That's also what I do in most countries as many have far cheaper pre-paid plans but it is a PITA especially if you're crossing borders and having to swap sims all the time


----------



## m3s

The roaming thing is really just antiquated cash grab now that smartphones work globally. The EU had to ban roaming fees because countries were jamming each other and causing emergency call issues (same on Can/US border)

Now that Google Fi and MVNO model exists these companies should start making international deals. Then you just pay your MVNO who pays all the network usage in whatever country. Probably just a matter of time now

Do Canadian carriers offer wi-fi calling and automatic wi-fi yet? This was new to me but wi-fi calling has been very handy living in fringe cell service areas. I can always call out on voip but it's nice to receive calls on wi-fi calling


----------



## agent99

m3s said:


> Now that Google Fi and MVNO model exists these companies should start making international deals. Then you just pay your MVNO who pays all the network usage in whatever country. Probably just a matter of time nowg


Isn't that what Knowroaming and other similar services offer? We have KR and can use it in Canada, in USA and in hundreds of other countries if we so wish. No need to change SIM. Automatically knows what to connect to when borders are crossed. 

In Canada, it operates on whichever signal is best. Our's switches between Bell and Rogers in our area and is mostly on AT&T when we cross border. We only turn data on when we are away from wifi and need it. KR is not an every day plan for heavy users, and could get expensive if used a lot, but is great for those who travel frequently across borders. I use my phone infrequently and when I do, wifi is usually available (I use Google's Hangups on wifi (free calls)) I have to buy US$25 of air/data time once every 9 months. I can't use that up - my balance keeps increasing! But I am an aging retiree


----------



## james4beach

I've heard Costco, Staples, Best Buy, and the carrier stores mentioned in this thread. Where else can one buy a smart phone?

(Especially an unlocked phone to use with an arbitrary SIM; not getting a plan from anyone)

Would you buy a smart phone through Amazon.ca ? I'm shopping around but my hesitation is that the phone is sold by a nameless third party, one of these storefronts.


----------



## AltaRed

Places like Walmart, Superstore, London Drugs, etc. Just about anywhere you wish to look.


----------



## james4beach

Thanks. My phone's screen shattered when I dropped it on concrete. Looks like I'm buying a new one.

This last one cost only $110 and lasted 3 years. Probably could have used it another year if it didn't break. In my view $37/year is pretty good value.


----------



## Foxx88

james4beach said:


> Thanks. My phone's screen shattered when I dropped it on concrete. Looks like I'm buying a new one.
> 
> This last one cost only $110 and lasted 3 years. Probably could have used it another year if it didn't break. In my view $37/year is pretty good value.


That's a great price for a phone ... is it an android and where did you get it for $110. The Otterbox case I use on my phone has saved it many times, though the screen protector cracked when I dropped it once, but the screen underneath it is intact. They're really good phone cases, though make a slim phone bulkier, so it's a trade-off.


----------



## james4beach

It was an older model Moto E and I bought it on Amazon (US) for 80 USD domestically, but even that seemed to be a fluke of a price. Mostly they were going for 110 to 130 USD at the time. Very happy with that deal 

I am starting to think about the case I should get for the next phone.

Getting a new phone isn't too bad. The old phone had a horribly out of date Android OS that was not receiving security patches, which is quite dangerous.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I've heard Costco, Staples, Best Buy, and the carrier stores mentioned in this thread. Where else can one buy a smart phone?
> 
> (Especially an unlocked phone to use with an arbitrary SIM; not getting a plan from anyone)
> 
> Would you buy a smart phone through Amazon.ca ? I'm shopping around but my hesitation is that the phone is sold by a nameless third party, one of these storefronts.


I have not found Amazon to have particular aggressive pricing.


----------



## james4beach

andrewf said:


> I have not found Amazon to have particular aggressive pricing.


Any thoughts where to look? I went by Walmart today and they're trying to sell specific carrier stuff, though some are marked Unlocked. I didn't see any fantastic prices.


----------



## AltaRed

There are no fantastic prices unless there is a clearance of old models. Everyone is paying the same wholesale price from the suppliers.


----------



## andrewf

Koodo used to be a good source. I think they changed their offering so you have to 'repay' activation credits if you leave before 2 years. If you can wait until Black Friday, there will be good offers then.

James, I think perhaps you are a bit too fixated on getting extremely cheap entry level phones. I don't think spending $300 on a phone is too extravagant.


----------



## cainvest

You can get a Moto G7 for under $300, that's a fair step up from a Moto E.


----------



## james4beach

I realize I can get a higher end phone, but if I can find a basic one it would be my preference because I don't use many features of smart phones. I'm the kind of person who goes in and disables just about all the functionality and mostly uses it for voice calls, texting, and maps.

How about this? Moto E5 Play, unlocked, for $99 via Best Buy's marketplace (same idea as Amazon)
https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/produc...ack-16gb-smartphone-factory-unlocked/13410682

Possibly Android 8 according to data from elsewhere. This seems awfully modern and feature rich for just $99... am I missing something?


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Possibly Android 8 according to data from elsewhere. This seems awfully modern and feature rich for just $99... am I missing something?


Ya, android 9


----------



## cainvest

You mentioned before that having the latest Android OS is a good idea, for security reasons. So for an extra $150 over the E5 Play you'll get a better phone with more OS update life than the E5.


----------



## ian

Moto G7 , new/unlocked is currently selling for $209. on Costco.ca and probably $199 ish in any store that has it in stock. Excellent basic phone according to PCMag reviews.


----------



## andrewf

james4beach said:


> I realize I can get a higher end phone, but if I can find a basic one it would be my preference because I don't use many features of smart phones. I'm the kind of person who goes in and disables just about all the functionality and mostly uses it for voice calls, texting, and maps.
> 
> How about this? Moto E5 Play, unlocked, for $99 via Best Buy's marketplace (same idea as Amazon)
> https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/produc...ack-16gb-smartphone-factory-unlocked/13410682
> 
> Possibly Android 8 according to data from elsewhere. This seems awfully modern and feature rich for just $99... am I missing something?


You are still getting a crappy screen, poor camera, bad digitizer (touch input).


----------



## MillionDollarJourney

Right now, the Samsung a20, a30, a50, a70 series are decent value. And as always, the Moto G series (Moto G7) right now provides big value. If you are a bit of a risk taker, the Umidigi series on Amazon provides big spec for very little (starts at $120), but I've read that their camera software needs a lot of work.


----------



## james4beach

Thanks for the suggestions above. Moto G7 and some of those Samsung Galaxy ones like A20 do seem like good value. And I've had very positive experiences with both Moto and Samsung phones.

However, I've encountered an irritating problem. I am still using a US carrier (even though I'm in Canada) because it's simply amazing for world travel including data, but I have a Micro SIM card. All newer phones use Nano SIMs. My existing SIM card will not fit into these slots, and it can't be safely cut down to size.

Before I get one of these newer phones, I would need to get my carrier to give me a new Nano SIM. It's not clear to me how to do this. I'm going to ask them to mail one to my old (defunct) address, and I'll hope that the postal system forwards a letter containing a SIM card across the border. Otherwise I'll have to send the SIM card to the US domestically and then pick it up next time I'm there, which could be a month or two.

Letter mail containing paper easily gets across the border. Does anyone know if a SIM card in the mail will easily go across without getting intercepted?

(And in the mean time I'll find a workaround, probably a second hand phone from Kijiji that takes a Micro SIM)


----------



## Retired Peasant

james4beach said:


> Before I get one of these newer phones, I would need to get my carrier to give me a new Nano SIM. It's not clear to me how to do this. I'm going to ask them to mail one to my old (defunct) address, and I'll hope that the postal system forwards a letter containing a SIM card across the border.


From another thread...


> I'm about to head to the US west coast again,


Can't you just get a new Nano SIM when you go there?


----------



## agent99

MillionDollarJourney said:


> Right now, the Samsung a20, a30, a50, a70 series are decent value. And as always, the Moto G series (Moto G7) right now provides big value. If you are a bit of a risk taker, the Umidigi series on Amazon provides big spec for very little (starts at $120), but I've read that their camera software needs a lot of work.


I am in market for an unlocked phone with 16-32Gb. The Samsung A10, A20 would be contenders. However, if I want a Canadian phone with warranty, they are not cheap! The Ones on BestBuy and Amazon, are often what they call International Edition. I read that they may be sourced in India and that Samsung in NA do not provide warranty or other service for them. For example:

BestBuy https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/produc...l-version-w-seller-provided-warranty/13599116

Amazon: https://www.amazon.ca/Samsung-DS-Un...1572795622&sprefix=samsung+a10,aps,187&sr=8-5

Presumable Canadian version with warranty (they don't say) for $349 at Staples: https://www.staples.ca/products/294...-unlocked-smart-phone-32-gb-android-pie-black


----------



## agent99

Looks like the bottom of the line Samsung Galaxy A10 might do what I need. At Staples $199, but on-line sometimes for presumably unsupported international version $99 and this with 32GB?? 

https://www.staples.ca/products/2962273-en-samsung-galaxy-a10e-32gb-smartphone-black

At Walmart Canada, same price, hopefully with Samsung Canada warranty? https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/samsung-galaxy-a10e-58-display-32gb-storage-android-9/6000200460385

but same price at BestBuy for International version no company warranty:

https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/produc...l-version-w-seller-provided-warranty/13501282

on eBay also no warranty - Latin/International warranty. Vendor provides 60day warranty. But how well does that work?

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-Samsung...hash=item420a939b92:m:mkHll58-2I-v9zw7nzITBIA

I am confused.



I need to do more research! 

Present phone is a Motorola e. I like the quality of their phones.


----------



## STech

Please let us know what you end up buying James and if it's good. I'm looking at adding a 2nd phone. I don't like Apple anything, and my last 3 phones have been Samsung.

Also, is there a thread about phone plans? I'm looking at Lucky or Public mobile. I'm fine with their slow speed networks.


TIA


----------



## james4beach

Retired Peasant said:


> From another thread...
> 
> 
> Can't you just get a new Nano SIM when you go there?


Yes, that's exactly what I'm going to do. After that I can properly shop for one of these new phones.


----------



## agent99

After a little more research, it seems the Samsung A10e is their current entry level model and the list price is $199. Same as Staples and Dell are selling it for. https://www.samsung.com/ca/smartphones/galaxy-a10e-a102/

Anyone see any reason for a casual user like myself not to buy this. Very casual actual phone use. Some texting, but mainly for use with apps. What is it that buyer doesnt get compared with their top of the line Galaxy Note etc?


Many vendors and services these days assume you have a smartphone and require you to install their app. I have no room left on my 8GB Moto e.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 -- I'm not totally sure of that pricing. For example if I search from staples.ca I cannot find that product, even though a link was posted here.

The BestBuy one is in fact not sold by BestBuy. Like all these retailers, they have added a "marketplace" concept where third parties sell the phones. That $199 one is likely fine, because the seller appears to have a good rating, but beware that it's not actually from BestBuy. Rather, it's coming from a private seller such as those within Amazon.

The Walmart listing looks legit though (actual Walmart) so that should be more solid.

I agree that the A10E looks like a good option, but I haven't fully researched the reviews. You should look into how the A10E differs from the A10. This appears to be have an answer
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ve-of-the-galaxy-a10/articleshow/68995683.cms

My preference would be to buy new hardware from a large store, mostly because I don't trust what smaller vendors (like the BestBuy/Amazon marketplace private resellers) might have done with the phone. Often they are buying international versions, unboxing them, doing other things like manually unlocking them.

So I share your confusion agent99... but one of these low end Samsung Galaxy or Moto G7 so far appear plausible


----------



## james4beach

Not sure if this link will work, Costco

Motorola Moto G7 Play Unlocked Ceramic Black Smartphone, $210

That's one of the lowest prices I've seen for a new, up to date smartphone. Can anyone tell if this is actually sold by Costco, or if it's a third party reseller?


----------



## agent99

Just checked Staples.ca again and this link does work. Maybe it depends on where you are?

https://www.staples.ca/products/2962273-en-samsung-galaxy-a10e-32gb-smartphone-black

Good info from India! However, it seems the A10e does have same processor (Exynos 7884). 
https://www.phonearena.com/phones/Samsung-Galaxy-A10e_id11210

On that site, you can compare specs. This is comparison of A10e with A10:

https://www.phonearena.com/phones/compare/Samsung-Galaxy-A10e,Samsung-Galaxy-A10/phones/11210,11119

I think I will go over to Staples and have a look!


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> Not sure if this link will work, Costco
> 
> Motorola Moto G7 Play Unlocked Ceramic Black Smartphone, $210
> 
> That's one of the lowest prices I've seen for a new, up to date smartphone. Can anyone tell if this is actually sold by Costco, or if it's a third party reseller?


They do say that it may be in stock at store. So presumably they sell it. Looks good, but we are not members. Having had the Moto e, I wouldn't mind staying with Motorola (although it is now also China based and sold there under a different name - Lenovo?)


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> They do say that it may be in stock at store. So presumably they sell it. Looks good, but we are not members. Having had the Moto e, I wouldn't mind staying with Motorola (although it is now also China based and sold there under a different name - Lenovo?)


Oh, I'm sure they're all made in China... but good point, I'm not sure about how quality might have changed. Best thing is to look at reviews and see what others think.

I don't have Costco membership either. How much does it cost? It may also be worth it for buying glasses, later, as I've heard that Costco does a good job with glasses.

I really hate shopping for stuff like this.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Not sure if this link will work, Costco
> 
> Motorola Moto G7 Play Unlocked Ceramic Black Smartphone, $210
> 
> That's one of the lowest prices I've seen for a new, up to date smartphone. Can anyone tell if this is actually sold by Costco, or if it's a third party reseller?


I'll let you know if Costco has them at the store in 30 minutes or so ....


----------



## cainvest

Costco has them in stock on the shelf for $199.99. They are not in the phone area but in the electronics section.

At that price I don't think their supply will last long ...


----------



## james4beach

Wow, thanks for checking. That does seem really nice. Wish I had the membership though.


----------



## cainvest

The membership price is easy to recover, just pick up a some things when they go on sale a few times a year, done.

Or, stop in for a dozen hot dogs (w/drink) for $1.50 within a year, membership paid for lol 

Of course it's normally easier just to find someone with a membership ...


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> Wow, thanks for checking. That does seem really nice. Wish I had the membership though.


Same here. But Samsung seems to have similar specs? I am off to Staples to check it out.


----------



## scorpion_ca

james4beach said:


> Wow, thanks for checking. That does seem really nice. Wish I had the membership though.


Don't you have any F&F who has membership and help you with that purchase? They can also buy a Costco gift card for you and you can use it to purchase the phone. Costco is having a promo for membership.

https://www.costco.ca/membership-offer.html


----------



## agent99

Staples were out of stock of Samsung A10e and they don't sell the Moto G7 in stores ($250 on-line).

This is a comparison of the two: https://www.phonearena.com/phones/c...A10e,Motorola-Moto-G7-Play/phones/11210,11061

Quite similar, but then I don't understand how significant some of the specs are. 

Anyone have a view?

By the way James, it looks like the G7 Play can be ordered on-line without being a member?

https://www.costco.ca/cell-phones.html $209.99 incl shipping.


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> Quite similar, but then I don't understand how significant some of the specs are.
> 
> Anyone have a view?


Specs are pretty close, didn't see any benckmark data for A10e showing how fast it is though.
What I like about the Moto family is the simple standard Android interface.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> By the way James, it looks like the G7 Play can be ordered on-line without being a member?
> 
> https://www.costco.ca/cell-phones.html $209.99 incl shipping.


Interesting, so maybe membership is not required. I might try that out. Regarding comparing the two, I like looking at the gsmarena stats:
https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a10e-9790.php
https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g7_play-9532.php

_Warning_: double check that these links refer to the model being sold. There are so many versions of these damned phones.

- same dimensions & weight & battery size
- same memory and storage and CPU power looks roughly similar
- Moto G7 Play _might_ have additional glass protection, but only on some models
- Moto G7 Play appears to have stronger camera with 13 MP, compared to 8 MP on A10E
- Galaxy A10E _might_ have superior Wifi capabilities, supports both bands whereas G7 supports one

If the camera is important, I would guess you might want the higher resolution with the Moto G7 Play although the higher megapixels does not necessarily mean the image quality is better. And Samsung does have a better history with good cameras, so this is tough to compare.

If Wifi compatibility is important (e.g. getting the best signals anywhere you go) then Galaxy A10E would be better as it supports both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz resulting in better connectivity. I have run into this issue before on my older Moto, which like the G7 only has 2.4 GHz and as I travel a lot and look for hotspots, this sometimes did limit my ability to use wifi.

Then again, the Motorola specifications page claims that the G7 Play does in fact have 5 GHz and this is probably more trustworthy than gsmarena
https://support.motorola.com/us/en/...moto-g-family/moto-g7-play/documents/MS137729

So hard to know what to believe. This confusion occurs because they pump out so many models, sometimes with slightly different capabilities. So unless you look up a *specific* model number it's impossible to know many of these details. Kind of a crap shoot.

OK... end result... because the specs are pretty similar, and because there's uncertainty about whether in fact one is better than the other for Wifi, I don't think it's easy to say which is better. If the Wifi details are very important to you then you would have to learn the specific model # being sold, otherwise I don't think you can assume that one device has better Wifi than the other.


----------



## james4beach

I'm going to try using a second hand phone for the interim. It's an unlocked Samsung (Android) that the previous owner unlocked, but I'd like to do a factory reset to clear out the previous user's stuff and potential junk.

Does anyone know if it's safe to factory-reset an unlocked phone? Will it remain unlocked?


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> - Galaxy A10E _might_ have superior Wifi capabilities, supports both bands whereas G7 supports one


G7 has dual band but not 'ac'.

Even my G4 Plus has dual band.


----------



## agent99

cainvest said:


> Specs are pretty close, didn't see any benckmark data for A10e showing how fast it is though.
> What I like about the Moto family is the simple standard Android interface.


This youtube video has some test data. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI8fDMn1l_M 
Another review here: https://youtu.be/Qnd9PhCITgA
Sounds like reviewers were impressed considering the price. 
Review of Moto G7 Play https://youtu.be/4qXYSRSF0tM

Hard choice, but may go with the Samsung. Just Placed Order on-line.


----------



## james4beach

Seems like a good bet, agent99. Did you order this $200 one at Staples?
https://www.staples.ca/products/2962273-en-samsung-galaxy-a10e-32gb-smartphone-black


----------



## ian

Why dither about over analyzing these. The bottom line is that they are both good phones. You will not have them for the rest of your lives. Good phones, good price. Pick one and move forward.


----------



## gardner

james4beach said:


> Does anyone know if it's safe to factory-reset an unlocked phone? Will it remain unlocked?


https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+safe+to+...+phone?+Will+it+remain+unlocked&t=ffnt&ia=web

.. gives mixed answers. The consensus is that it will remain unlocked, with some slightly scary special cases. If your phone is from a Canadian carrier, they will give you the secret decoder ring to re-unlock it, so there is less risk from that angle.


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> Seems like a good bet, agent99. Did you order this $200 one at Staples?
> https://www.staples.ca/products/2962273-en-samsung-galaxy-a10e-32gb-smartphone-black


Yes that's the one. Having it shipped. Supposed to be a BD present, so won't get to use it for a little while  

Meantime, will start to configure Motorola so wife can use it. Need Speakout or similar here and maybe ATT Prepaid in US. Mind you Mint Mobile is a heck of a deal and allows roaming in Canada too. US$15/month with 3Gb+ data.

Is Speakout still the best deal for a low usage Canadian phone?


----------



## agent99

ian said:


> Why dither about over analyzing these. The bottom line is that they are both good phones. You will not have them for the rest of your lives. Good phones, good price. Pick one and move forward.


Don't you ever shop around and compare before buying anything? >1 day is hardly dithering!


----------



## james4beach

In my case I want to be absolutely sure of the frequency bands supported (for world travel and max compatibility), and these can be very different even between 'good' phones. Maybe I'm just torturing myself but I need those details before buying. And I don't even have a Nano SIM card yet, so I'm going to wait before buying.

If one doesn't have a highly specific need like that, yeah, I think you can pretty much just buy either one of those 2 and it's all good.


----------



## james4beach

Because I don't have the correct SIM card for one of these newer phones, I am temporarily using a second hand unlocked Samsung Galaxy S5 Neo, just so I can use _something_ until I get the updated SIM card.

I have a SIM from a US carrier and roaming in Canada. Typically this roams on Bell/Telus/Rogers... in fact the reason I'm sticking with this SIM is that I get amazing coverage by being able to roam among all the competitors in Canada!

But: on my Moto E phone, it just about always finds LTE. However what's disappointing me is that even though my Moto E picks up LTE in my current location, once I swap the SIM card into the Galaxy S5, all it gets is HSPA+ and never LTE.

To be absolutely sure that LTE _should be possible_, I sat down at a table and swapped the SIM back and forth between Moto E and Galaxy S5 two or three times. The Moto E gets LTE, the Galaxy S5 does not. This is despite the network settings on the Galaxy S5 being set to the LTE/GSM/everything/etc setting.

Any idea what might be happening? It still works, but would be nice to get connectivity on the newest network.

More generally, this also makes me worry about buying another (expensive!) new phone. How can I tell if a new unlocked phone is going to get LTE on my service? Even when the hardware says it supports it, apparently some phones can get LTE while others do not.


----------



## james4beach

Speaking of which, does anyone else hate how many dang variants of these phones exist? It's not enough to know the model number. It also depends on what the specific carrier did to the phone. They can end up disabling or ruining certain features.

For example, according to this obscure forum post, for the second hand Galaxy S5 that I'm using: "the Canadian G930W model will only work on Wind on 3G and *not 2G or 4G/LTE*"

Probably means that this second hand phone I grabbed was originally Wind, and has some kind of hardware or firmware issue (appears to be specific to Wind) that result in it not being able to LTE.

This is why I am hesitant to, for example, go to Costco or Walmart or wherever, and buy some "unlocked" phone that is associated with a vendor. The vendors appear to do things to these phones that affect their capabilities! Or am I misunderstanding what Costco/Walmart sell?

*Do you think that the new phones sold by Costco, Staples, Walmart (really a third party vendor) are pure manufacturer phones, or some telco's variant? And how can one tell before buying it? I really worry about this!*


... more of a rant starts below ...

Or to put it another way... isn't this false advertising? The manufacturer puts out some specifications for the model. I look at them and say, oh good, this phone supports LTE. But then you get the actual phone and find, well, no. This model has firmware for Bell (or whoever) and they have disabled that feature for their own needs.

Even though it's unlocked, you're stuck with the carrier's variant of the phone. Or in other words, it's not enough to have an "unlocked" phone: they are not all equivalent.

Personally I hate the idea of paying something like $500 for a new phone, just to get a mystery surprise of what exactly the phone can do and what is enabled and disabled on it. For me this is a huge problem with the smartphone market.

It's not specific to Canada. In the US as well, phones have all kinds of variants for AT&T or whatever carrier, with slightly different capabilities.


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> I have a SIM from a US carrier and roaming in Canada. Typically this roams on Bell/Telus/Rogers... in fact the reason I'm sticking with this SIM is that I get amazing coverage by being able to roam among all the competitors in Canada!


I use knowroaming and it too works like that. Just chooses the best carrier in Canada or USA and works on 4G/LTE if available. Direct calls in Canada are expensive, but if Hangouts is used, cost can be reduced to C 5c-20c/min. In US we direct dial for 15c/min, mostly on AT&T. This was with Moto e.

But:


> on my Moto E phone, it just about always finds LTE. However what's disappointing me is that even though my Moto E picks up LTE in my current location, once I swap the SIM card into the Galaxy S5, all it gets is HSPA+ and never LTE.


If I go to Speakout, no matter which phone, I will only get HSPA+. This even although they use the Rogers network. But if you get LTE with the Moto and not on S5 in same location in Canada, then it must be the phone's limitation.

I have my Staples Samsung A10e, but haven't opened the box yet! Spec says:
4G LTE Bands Supported	B2(1900),B3(1800),B4(AWS),B5(850),B7(2600),B12(700),B14(700),B29(700),B30(2300),B66(AWS-3)

I don't expect any problems with it. Doubt you would with G7 either. If you do, take it back! 

By the way, a number of vendors are starting to advertise Black Friday sales. Maybe a chance to get a discount!


----------



## Spudd

I think all phones sold in Canada these days are unlocked, aren't they? (I googled and it seems so.) So your question really is whether a given phone has carrier settings on it. I would think if you buy it from a carrier-branded outlet, then you can expect it to have carrier settings. If you buy it from a non carrier-branded outlet such as Staples, it should not. The safest would be to buy directly from the manufacturer, then you can be sure it is vanilla. At someplace like Walmart, they have carrier-branded phones for sure. I do not know if they have non-carrier-branded. If you go to Walmart you'll see the phones separated by carrier. 

I know you can buy Motorola and Samsung phones directly from the manufacturer's website. If I wanted to be sure of getting something that was not carrier-modified, this is what I would do.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Do you think that the new phones sold by Costco, Staples, Walmart (really a third party vendor) are pure manufacturer phones, or some telco's variant? And how can one tell before buying it? I really worry about this!


Costco typically has an excellent return policy, just ask how long you have to return it when you buy it.

Normally cell phone places give you 14 days return I believe, not sure this applies to unlocked phones you buy though.


----------



## james4beach

Thanks for the tips above... I think you're right. If you buy from a carrier-branded outlet, it will probably have carrier settings. Best option in any case is to buy from a store where you can see the box first, so you can actually read the model and see if there's any carrier markings.

And thanks for the idea of looking at the manufacturer's own online sales. Here is another low cost smart phone option!

Moto E6 for $180 direct from Motorola

This is Android 9 (the latest version) and release just in August, so it's a very recent phone. However, my hesitation here again would be that it's not clear exactly which model of the E6 they're selling. There are many variants which are tuned for different geographies and carriers.


----------



## james4beach

james4beach said:


> And thanks for the idea of looking at the manufacturer's own online sales. Here is another low cost smart phone option!
> 
> Moto E6 for $180 direct from Motorola


Regarding this Moto E6 straight from Motorola, their customer service responded to my question and said the exact model is: XT2005-5

As I previously had a good experience (for global roaming) with Moto, I'm leaning towards this one. At a quick glance it appears to have at least the same frequency band support as my older Moto E, suggesting to me that this E6 should also do pretty well globally.


----------



## agent99

You have probably seen this:

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/moto-e...005-3-XT2005-4-XT2005-5-XT2005DL/td-p/4495108

Seems there is an e6 and an e6 Plus. Latter has more features.

Does that e6 only have 16Gb RAM?


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> You have probably seen this:
> 
> https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/moto-e...005-3-XT2005-4-XT2005-5-XT2005DL/td-p/4495108


Notice how they mention the carrier compatibility... which is my gripe from above. Perhaps the carrier doesn't have specific settings on each phone, but they've tuned the frequency bands to optimize for certain carriers.

This has happened to me before, which is why I'm kind of bitter. Even unlocked phones direct from the manufacture are not necessarily suitable for generic use across _any_ carrier. They enable and disable different capabilities (such as LTE bands) with an intention of certain carrier compatibility.

I'm hoping to find a cheap smartphone that has a wide range of bands so that I can actually use it with an arbitrary US carrier, arbitrary Canadian carrier, etc.


----------



## leoc2

james4beach said:


> Notice how they mention the carrier compatibility... which is my gripe from above. Perhaps the carrier doesn't have specific settings on each phone, but they've tuned the frequency bands to optimize for certain carriers.
> 
> This has happened to me before, which is why I'm kind of bitter. Even unlocked phones direct from the manufacture are not necessarily suitable for generic use across _any_ carrier. They enable and disable different capabilities (such as LTE bands) with an intention of certain carrier compatibility.
> 
> I'm hoping to find a cheap smartphone that has a wide range of bands so that I can actually use it with an arbitrary US carrier, arbitrary Canadian carrier, etc.


If you can wait, the Moto G8 Play is now selling in the Brazil and Mexico. It should be here soon. I am a big fan of the Hybrid Dual Sim slot as I can leave my Fido and Google Fi sim in the phone and travel around and out of Canada without any swapping.

https://m.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g8_play-9918.php


----------



## agent99

leoc2 said:


> I am a big fan of the Hybrid Dual Sim slot as I can leave my Fido and Google Fi sim in the phone and travel around and out of Canada without any swapping.


Off topic, but interested in knowing more about Google Fi. I see it is $20/month plus $10/Gb plus taxes. For that you get unlimited calling and texting. Is that just in USA or Canada or wherever you may be as well? Can you take this out just for the duration of your trip? For example, a snowbird could take this out for say 3 months and then cancel? Or could someone in Canada just use that as their main plan (instead of Fido in your case)

BTW, We are using Knowroaming. No monthly cost, just have to load minimum of $25. Expires if you don't reload in 9 months. Only have used it in USA and Canada, but friends have used it elsewhere.


----------



## james4beach

The cheapest I've seen yet, for a rather new phone. Motorola E5 Play for $100 directly from Motorola
https://intl.motorola.com/ca/mods-and-accessories/phones/moto-e5-play-pdp/

The main limitation here is that it's Android 8


----------



## leoc2

agent99 said:


> Off topic, but interested in knowing more about Google Fi. I see it is $20/month plus $10/Gb plus taxes. For that you get unlimited calling and texting. Is that just in USA or Canada or wherever you may be as well? Can you take this out just for the duration of your trip? For example, a snowbird could take this out for say 3 months and then cancel? Or could someone in Canada just use that as their main plan (instead of Fido in your case)
> 
> BTW, We are using Knowroaming. No monthly cost, just have to load minimum of $25. Expires if you don't reload in 9 months. Only have used it in USA and Canada, but friends have used it elsewhere.


Google Fi is a pain to get if you live in Canada. The plan needs you to use an American Credit card. This credit card must be linked to a USA address. Snowbirds who own property in USA should not have any problems as they can open a bank account in the USA and get a credit card. In my case I don't own USA property but I do have a relative working there. He has a Google Fi plan that allows him to get 4 free data only sims. These sims are meant to be used in his extra devices like tablets for things like travel. He sent me one and I pay him $10 /1 Gig of data I use. He takes a chance on me paying up whenever I go through a Gig of data. The sim works in my Moto G5 plus. When I travel I can use the data only plan with my google voice number for calls and google hangouts for texting. Thus I have voice, text and data when I travel. When I get a Moto G8 with dual sim it will allow me to be free of sim swapping.


----------



## agent99

leoc2 said:


> Google Fi is a pain to get if you live in Canada.


Thanks leoc2. 

We spend winters in USA and because I use a Knowroaming SIM, I have a US phone number. I used that to get Google Voice years ago. When GV became unsupported I moved to Hangouts & Hangouts dialer - accessed directly from Contacts where you can choose to call using Hangouts cell.

On my new Samsung A10e, I found Contacts only allowed cell call. I would have to use the Hangouts dialer directly, and it requires user to search for a contact. I uninstalled Hangouts dialer and installed the new Google Voice. It is much better and brings up your contacts right away. Through all of this, I retained the same Google Voice/Hangouts phone number.

My wife now has the Moto 2e. I tried installing the new GV there. But it said not available in our location and to use Hangouts! Yet I was able to install it on my phone! Anyway, for now she will use Contacts with Hangouts dialer. 

I have a question for you regarding using data for calling. Do you leave data turned on or do you switch it on only when calling? If on, what do you do to limit background use? (Cost on K-R is 15c/MB in Canada, 10c/Mb in USA both USD) $100/GB! But apparently still cheaper than paygo calling rates.K-R does have a Data package for USA at $9.99/GB for 30days.


----------



## agent99

Now I have my new reasonably low cost phone, I also need a low cost case to protect it. So I go to Amazon.ca I get these choices:

https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=mylb+phone+case&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
What the heck does MYLB compatible mean?? Nether Amazon nor Google can find an answer. I am sure it is something simple, but is it important?


----------



## Spudd

agent99 said:


> Now I have my new reasonably low cost phone, I also need a low cost case to protect it. So I go to Amazon.ca I get these choices:
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=mylb+phone+case&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
> What the heck does MYLB compatible mean?? Nether Amazon nor Google can find an answer. I am sure it is something simple, but is it important?


MYLB seems to be the brand of these phone cases. If you look at the small print under the name of the product, it says "by MYLB". I think it's just saying the brand name and then continuing to say the case is compatible with whatever model of phone.


----------



## agent99

Spudd said:


> MYLB seems to be the brand of these phone cases. If you look at the small print under the name of the product, it says "by MYLB". I think it's just saying the brand name and then continuing to say the case is compatible with whatever model of phone.


I am sure you are right. On BestBuy, it said "This is an awesome soft phone case cover by Mylb for your phone." Other phone cases on Amazon are sold by MYLBOO as well as MYLB-US!


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> The cheapest I've seen yet, for a rather new phone. Motorola E5 Play for $100 directly from Motorola
> https://intl.motorola.com/ca/mods-and-accessories/phones/moto-e5-play-pdp/
> 
> The main limitation here is that it's Android 8


I might have been tempted by that one, but I really wanted 32Gb. These days everyone wants us to install apps for this and that. The 8GB on my Moto e was often full and I would have to uninstall something. My Samsung is currently using 13.1 of 32Gb (9.6 for System!). And I have only just started setting it up!


----------



## leoc2

agent99 said:


> Thanks leoc2.
> 
> ...
> I have a question for you regarding using data for calling. Do you leave data turned on or do you switch it on only when calling? If on, what do you do to limit background use? (Cost on K-R is 15c/MB in Canada, 10c/Mb in USA both USD) $100/GB! But apparently still cheaper than paygo calling rates.K-R does have a Data package for USA at $9.99/GB for 30days.


When at home I use Fido data only plan which $15/month for 3 GB (They offered me 2 years at $7.50/ month). And most months my usage is just over 1 GB. That usage also included using a hotspot to tether my wife's phone when we are out and about in Canada. So no worries there. When we travel I tether her phone again and I monitor the amount of data used every couple of days. Before getting the google fi sim I would use this site to figure out which foreign local sim buy.

https://prepaid-data-sim-card.fandom.com/wiki/Prepaid_SIM_with_data

Many of these foreign sims have enough data to not even sweat about usage. If the foreign sim had limited data then I would make sure her tethered phone had auto updates switched off and both of our phones would use the Greenify app to shut down all unused apps during our days out. With google Fi I am back to tethering my wife's phone on out of country trips and not sweating about usage.


----------



## agent99

Thanks Leoc. Luckily we don't use phone much or when we do we are on wifi. So probably will just dial over carrier (AT&T) in USA at 15c/min. In Canada, I might try using data and GV, but will have to turn data on & off to make calls because of the high cost from K-R. We just don't use our phones enough to warrant a monthly plan.


----------



## agent99

cainvest said:


> Specs are pretty close, didn't see any benckmark data for A10e showing how fast it is though.
> What I like about the Moto family is the simple standard Android interface.


Now that I have a few days experience playing and setting up the Samsung A10e, I should perhaps have stayed with Moto series. Actually, the A10e seems like a super phone at any price. 

What I don't like, is all the Samsung stuff superimposed over Android/Google. They have Samsung mail and Samsung Internet (Browser), Messages, cloud storage, Experience Service??, etc. I keep getting an alert to log in again (to Samsung Account) so I can continue using services securely?? Don't recall logging in in the first place!

I guess I will get it figured out. Just hate the bloatware.


----------



## Eder

leoc2 said:


> W
> 
> Many of these foreign sims have enough data to not even sweat about usage. If the foreign sim had limited data then I would make sure her tethered phone had auto updates switched off and both of our phones would use the Greenify app to shut down all unused apps during our days out. With google Fi I am back to tethering my wife's phone on out of country trips and not sweating about usage.


I just switched from ATT to T-Mobile...no big deal even though I'm Canadian. I get unlimited LTE data as well as text/calling in Canada USA & Mexico & various other perks . No contract either. $55/month.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> Now that I have a few days experience playing and setting up the Samsung A10e, I should perhaps have stayed with Moto series. Actually, the A10e seems like a super phone at any price.
> 
> What I don't like, is all the Samsung stuff superimposed over Android/Google. They have Samsung mail and Samsung Internet (Browser), Messages, cloud storage, Experience Service??, etc. I keep getting an alert to log in again (to Samsung Account) so I can continue using services securely?? Don't recall logging in in the first place!
> 
> I guess I will get it figured out. Just hate the bloatware.


You don't have to use the Samsung browser. If you go under Apps, maybe in the upper right corner, there is a way to set the *default* web browser, and you can make it Chrome. You'll have to look up instructions for your version of android.

Over the years I have found Samsung quality to be pretty good. I didn't buy a new phone yet, but I'm temporarily using a Galaxy S5 and it's a real champ too. And I still use an old Galaxy S2 as a music player & web browser for travel, beach... it's indestructible.


----------



## james4beach

Eder said:


> I just switched from ATT to T-Mobile...no big deal even though I'm Canadian. I get unlimited LTE data as well as text/calling in Canada USA & Mexico & various other perks . No contract either. $55/month.


I'm on the same plan, Eder! It's an awesome deal.

Can you share some details about how you did this?

Are you using a US phone number with it, or did you find a way to get a Canadian phone number on that thing?

And how are you handling billing address. Do you have a real US address associated with the account? Since I've left the US, I'm trying to figure out how to keep this plan active.

Myself... I opened it with a US address (that's now gone) and I just hope they don't notice or care. Bills are electronic.


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> You don't have to use the Samsung browser. If you go under Apps, maybe in the upper right corner, there is a way to set the *default* web browser, and you can make it Chrome. You'll have to look up instructions for your version of android.
> 
> Over the years I have found Samsung quality to be pretty good.


I realize I can set Chrome as the default browser, but Samsung Internet will still be there using space. Same with Samsung Mail. I don't see how to choose a default calendar - Had to download Google Calendar and will use it. There is other stuff that I also can't see how to remove - Galaxy Store & Themes. Samsung Cloud, Samsung Experience Service etc.


----------



## STech

^ You'll need to root an android, or jailbreak an iPhone in order to get rid of the bloatware.


----------



## agent99

Ran into a problem setting up LastPass on my Samsung with Android 9. 

I have used LastPass on my laptops for years. It works well and is a convenient way to store the many passwords and usernames we seem to collect these days. On a laptop/desktop we tend to have links to the various websites we use regularly on our desktop. We launch websites from those and Lastpass (or browser) fills in username/password. It is possible to launch websites from Lastpass, but on laptop there is seldom a need for that.

On phone, we don't have a desktop as such. Launching sites from LastPass would be convenient . This apparently used to work, but with Android Pie, only secure sites (those starting with https) will launch. All other give an error (even this site) Searching web, I find others have same problem. LastPass does work if I go to Chrome and type in the sites web address. But typing in those sometimes long addresses on a phone is not ideal.

Wondering what others do? Maybe make up a set of bookmarks for Chrome just for the sites included in LastPass? Have to do that one by one?

Or maybe try a different password manager?


----------



## james4beach

I don't use LastPass or any password manager on the smartphone. I just don't consider the smartphones safe at all, they are easy to hack. For example, I never do any online banking or anything related to money.


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> I don't use LastPass or any password manager on the smartphone. I just don't consider the smartphones safe at all, they are easy to hack. For example, I never do any online banking or anything related to money.


I don't use phone for that sort of thing either. But it would be useful to have site log in info on phone as well as a launcher that would fill those in. Otherwise what is alternative? Carry hard copy around with you (you could get hacked  ) And type in the addresses and log in info each time?


----------



## fireseeker

agent99 said:


> Ran into a problem setting up LastPass on my Samsung with Android 9.
> ...
> Wondering what others do?


I have Lastpass on an Android phone, albeit an older Moto with an older OS.

I never use LP to launch websites. On the few occasions that I need a password from LP for use on my phone, I simply open the app and copy the PW for pasting into the browser. It's an extra step, but it works.


----------



## agent99

I found a way to put web links on home page and have them automatically log in. 

All I had to do after loading a site in Chrome, was tap the menu bars at top right . The dropdown menu has an option - Add to Home screen. Tap that, confirm add and voila, we have a link on home page. After loading from that link, site opens in Chrome and LastPass automatically adds log in details.


----------



## james4beach

I think I'm going to order this one from Costco: Motorola Moto G6 Play Unlocked, $150

The A10E and the Moto G7 Play are both newer models, but the appeal of the older G6 Play for me is the unusually large battery (which will be good for travel), and it can apparently be upgraded to Android 9. Plus it's a bit cheaper. The first thing I'll do when I get it is try upgrading to Android 9.

Yes I do realize I could go up to the newer G7 Play, and was tempted. But I just don't see how it's worth $60 more, for my needs.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Yes I do realize I could go up to the newer G7 Play, and was tempted. But I just don't see how it's worth $60 more, for my needs.


Either phone is good enough, the G7 will likely get one extra OS update though.
Interesting that the G7 play has a 103h endurance rating and the G6 play is only 93h with the larger battery???
Plus or not, the G7 also comes with type-C usb.


----------



## james4beach

The battery comparisons and ratings depend on usage patterns. I use my phone in a very different way than most people: I mostly don't touch it. It sits idle, ready to accept calls and text messages, but generally my screen is off and the phone is idle. The endurance and other ratings will look at things like power usage by the screen and under circumstances like watching video or web browsing... and I don't do any of those.

Most importantly, with long plane trips or business trips the phone will mostly be idle, screen off, and on Airplane mode much of the time. My belief is that under these kinds of circumstances, the larger actual battery capacity is most important.


----------



## agent99

Quiet day today, so ran a comparison. 

Looks to me like the G7 Play has slightly better specs than the A10e (camera, speed, processors). e in A10e probably means entry-level  But it seems good to me. More screen area than the Motos, I think. 

I really know very little about phones. Had to look up what Cat 4 and Cat7 were, find out whether Octacore vs Quadcore makes a difference (looks like USA G6 only has Quadcore) Does that matter? Probably not much.

https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=9790&idPhone2=9532&idPhone3=9002

But at $150, just saving $50 and you only get *1/2 as much memory* (16GBvs32Gb). That would make the difference for me. My phone with just basic apps is using 13.9Gb)

Good Luck - I am sure the G6 will work for you if you decide to go that way.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> My belief is that under these kinds of circumstances, the larger actual battery capacity is most important.


It could be better idle on the G6, hard to say as the new phone might (likely) have lower power chipsets in it.
In reality it's only $60 and minimal difference ... cheap vs frugal!


----------



## james4beach

Thanks for the feedback. I'm still considering options. I tried walking into Costco today, but since I didn't have a membership card they denied me entry! I said I wanted to look at electronics and will get membership if it's worth it, but they still didn't let me in.

The web site does allow purchases without membership.



agent99 said:


> But at $150, just saving $50 and you only get *1/2 as much memory* (16GBvs32Gb). That would make the difference for me.


I edited this post. I agree that most people should get a minimum of 32 GB internal storage on an Android phone. Especially if you don't plan to install an external SD card and use it for photos/media/apps.

I plan to buy the cheaper phone with 16 GB but will take a careful look at how much free storage it comes with out of the box (see below for my estimates). If it's not enough, I will return it and buy the G7 instead.


----------



## james4beach

agent99 raises a good issue here. The storage space on these phones. Every Android phone is going to come out of the box with a large amount of the storage used. I did some research to get some ballpark figures on how much storage space is used "out of the box". This figure will vary because different phones install various extras. Samsung is known to install more junk whereas Motorola has a leaner base install:

*Storage space already used on a new phone (OS + google system)*

Android 6: 6 GB
Android 7: 8 GB
Android 8: 9 GB
Android 9: 10 GB

^ This is due to "bloat" by Google, something they've been rather notorious for. It helps force people to upgrade and buy new phones.

Those are rough figures I found by searching around, but it does agree with my own phones. So take the phone's internal storage size, and subtract the above figure. What remains is the space you have for installing new apps, updates, and other media storage. Remember that you can put photos and media on the external SD card and not use any of this.

For example, if I buy a phone with 16 GB internal storage running Android 9, there will be 10 GB used by the system and about 6 GB will remain free. For me, that should be enough. Looking at my heavily used older Moto E phone for example gives some idea of how I'd end up using it:
2.5 GB of apps/updates I installed
1 GB of cache (this can be cleared)
0 GB for photos... these are on external SD card

When I get the 16 GB phone, I will definitely run the software OS update, and then look at how much free space remains. It should end up with about 6 GB free using my estimate above -- which would be fine. However if for some reason it has much less free, then I'll return it.


----------



## agent99

For what it's worth:

My old Moto 2e had 8Gb (1Gb RAM). 3Gb set aside for operating system, carrier applications, pre-loaded media. This leaves 5Gb for user and other stuff. At present total used is 7.06Gb. Very little added. Just set up as a phone. (It does have a 32Gb SD card that is supposed to extend internal storage, but very little will go there.)

My new Samsung has 32GB (2Gb RAM) currently using 1.1Gb RAM. 13.6GB of storage being used of which less than 500Mb would be apps I have loaded so far. 18.4GB available. No SD card yet. 

Not sure if phones are like Windows and run faster and better with more RAM. 2GB is better than 1GB and my phone is very fast compared with the Moto e. A 3Gb RAM phone would no doubt be even better.


----------



## ian

I just came across the bill for the unlocked Moto G4 that I bought on the web two years ago. $140. I wanted to stay completely away from any carrier two or three year plan for the phone or the service. I am not a heavy user of cell, never bother with data. 

At the time I knew that the latest minus one version is usually the best buy for a user like me. Looked at the UK reviews and PC Mag reviews. Narrowed it down to one or two phones and then shopped the web for the best offer. Phone is still as good as ever. Did the same on my spouses Samsung phone last year. It crapped the day prior going to Mexico for a few weeks. It was five years old. Spent an hour on the web researching phones while vacationing. Another hour or so shopping. Phone was waiting for her to pick up at the local UPS office on our return. Ten minutes at the Koodo booth for a new sim card and she was back in business.

We decided to pass the kiosks and the tech stores by when shopping for a phone. They push was what they are bonused on selling. Much easier to read the various reviews/stats, make a choice, then shop the web. Besides, most of them have not the slightest idea about the product they are selling. They work off of drawer sheet with a list of five of six benefits/attributes that may or may not be valid for all users.


----------



## james4beach

ian said:


> At the time I knew that the latest minus one version is usually the best buy for a user like me. Looked at the UK reviews and PC Mag reviews. Narrowed it down to one or two phones and then shopped the web for the best offer. Phone is still as good as ever. Did the same on my spouses Samsung phone last year.


Thanks for sharing ian and that seems to be the same line of reasoning I followed. The latest model minus one (so I got the G6) which looks like great value at this price. And like you I wanted to be completely free of any carrier links. I haven't received my Costco delivery yet but the first thing I will do is check that it doesn't have any carrier brandings on it.

Do you remember what web site you bought yours from? Was it something like Staples, Costco, Bestbuy?


----------



## ian

I bought it from Cellular Plus on an Amazon.ca listing. It was a packaged Verizon phone, sourced by Cellular Plus from the US. New,Unlocked, original packaging. 16GB. It came with a Motorola US warranty. Costco were not selling them at that time. The closest I came at the time for the same phone was Staples.ca @ something like $229. 

I felt that $90 difference in the US model was worth taking vs the Staples offering with a Cdn warranty. Given the choice, I would always buy from Costco because they have a very good return policy. 

I have been very happy with the phone, bearing in mind that really only use it for voice and text. The bottom line for me is that if it lasts another year I will be happy even though it shows no signs whatsoever of biting the dust. 

Product costs continue to decrease and product attributes always seem to be improving. That makes spending a pile of money on the latest phone, latest bells and whistles not such a great investment based on my needs and use.


----------



## james4beach

The Amazon listings can be a bit of a lottery (same with Best Buy's third party marketplace, which is the same concept as Amazon). But I also bought my last Moto E phone on Amazon for about $130 CAD, was an excellent phone.

One thing a buyer has to beware of is that many of the phones being sold online were originally packaged with certain carriers. For example Sprint in your case, and AT&T for my last one.

This can sometimes turn out to be a problem. All carriers make some changes to the phone, either something to their firmware, or settings (which become hard-coded and can't be changed). My last Samsung phone had this problem, where the phone model should have supported LTE but was not picking it up. After some digging I discovered that it had been another carrier's phone which had certain frequencies enabled/disabled, tuned to that carrier. *Even unlocked*, not all phones (even the same model) are the same.

On the other hand, I got lucky with my AT&T Moto E. The settings that AT&T had hard coded on it happened to work great with Bell, Rogers, and Telus! But this is luck of the draw.

These days I am trying to buy phones which have never been associated with a particular carrier, because that means all their standard features are enabled and ready to use. The same is not necessarily true when the phone came from a carrier.

** This is important because it will not only affect carrier compatibility and your ability to use the phone (worldwide) but it can also impact which OS updates and patches you get. My AT&T branded Moto E, for example, was stuck at a lower Android version than the regular manufacturer's phone would have. Carriers sometimes add more apps which slightly disrupt the pure Android experience. **

How to tell if your phone has been tuned/configured by a carrier? When you turn on/off the phone, watch the splash screens for logos. They often show up here. Also look on the case of the phone, as I've seen small carrier logos there as well. Look for apps that mention a carrier name, such as Rogers Hotspots or something like that. On an original manufacturer's phone, there will be nothing like this.

Amazon and Best Buy marketplace tend to have those cheap phones, which are cheap beacuse someone has bought a whole bunch of them from a carrier and then unlocked them. These carrier-configured phones are riskier purchases for the reasons described above. My hope is that Costco and Staples sell the original phones, not configured or tuned to a specific carrier.


----------



## fireseeker

I was in a Toronto Costco today. The Moto G7 was discounted to $149, from $199.


----------



## ian

That is an excellent buy.

My Moto E4 does flash up with a Verizon logo when I power it up. Other than that all is fine. There is apparently a way to eliminate that but frankly it does not bother me in the least since I seldom power it up. Got the phone, took it over to Koodo to get a new SIM and voila....it powered up with all cyl. ready to go.

I would be extremely surprised if the Costco phone was sourced from a wireless carrier. IF it was, I have no doubt that Costco would advise you. I would not be concerned about buying anything from Costco. It could be, if such a thing exists in the cell marketplace, a grey market product. That is purchased for a wholesaler in another country. In which case Costco would provide a warranty instead of the manufacturer. They did this on some electrical products a few years ago. London Drugs used to do that on Seiko watches.


----------



## agent99

fireseeker said:


> I was in a Toronto Costco today. The Moto G7 was discounted to $149, from $199.


That is a heck of a buy. I should have waited for Black Friday! (Assume they are just competing with others). On line, it is $159 but includes shipping:

https://www.costco.ca/motorola-moto-g7-play-unlocked-ceramic-black-smartphone.product.100518468.html

Staples will have the Samsung 10e that I bought on for $179.95 on Friday.

Maybe J4B can make an exchange.


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> That is a heck of a buy. I should have waited for Black Friday! (Assume they are just competing with others). On line, it is $159 but includes shipping:


That's a good deal ... I might have to upgrade my G4 Plus.


----------



## james4beach

Well now I'm not sure what to do. I paid $150 for the G6 (just got it today) and yes currently the G7 is on sale for $160... clearly a better phone.

The G6 is no longer listed online, so maybe I got the last one.

Does anyone have experience returning a Costco online purchases? How is that done? I'm not a Costco member but I believe the same 90 day policy applies.


----------



## ian

Costco has an excellent return policy. Just keep the original packaging.

If you want the G7 my strong advice would be to get on it right away....either at a store or on line. They will sell out.

If you buy from Costco.ca you can return the item to any Costco store. Soon you will be able to order from Costco.ca AND pick it up at a store.

Also, if you buy from Costco on line, and the product subsequently gets reduced in price or discounted within 10 days you simply have to call Costco and they will credit you with the difference. We have done this a few times when the delta was $50 and $75.


----------



## james4beach

Awesome. Yes, this seems really good.



ian said:


> If you buy from Costco.ca you can return the item to any Costco store.


Do you think they will allow me in for the return, even though I'm not a member? Previously I tried entering and they turned me back (no membership),

Yes, this will sell out. Good looking phone at a great price. Cheaper than the 'official price' people pay in the US, by the way.


----------



## agent99

Got me thinking about getting rebate from Staples on my Samsung. $20.00. Not worth the effort. But in J4B's case, I would definitely try and make an exchange for the 32Gb G7.


----------



## ian

If you purchased the phone at Costco.ca and are concerned just call them and ask. When returning items we never have to show our card IF they see we are returning an item. But....this may be more good fortune than anything. We do of course have cards thoough. IF you want this G7 do not delay. I have no doubt that one way or another you will be able to return the other and I am fairly confident that you will be able to get in the door to return it since the returns and member desk is at the exit vs the entrance to the store.


----------



## james4beach

Thanks, this is good advice. Did some research... if anyone is curious, the one Costco sells is probably model XT1952-3

I also noticed that the CPU is a significant step up from the G6. By the way, the G6 they sent me is perfectly factory original, no carrier markings at all, so I'm sure the G7 is the same.


----------



## cainvest

Was in Costco tonight ... they had lots of G7s. They must also be having other cell phone/plan sales as that area was packed.


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## james4beach

Thanks for all the helpful info in this thread. I took my G6 Play back to a Costco tonight and returned it for full refund.

I just bought the Moto G7 Play online for $160 before taxes. With the discount this is now only $10 more than last year's model.


----------



## agent99

Congratulations. Perfect timing!


----------



## james4beach

agent99 said:


> Congratulations. Perfect timing!


Thanks. Wow this board is really helpful... phone deals and career help all in one day. I also bought using my HT card this time, to get 90 day purchase protection.

agent99 in your case, the Samsung you got is already just as modern as this one, and you already have 32 GB. I don't think you'd be taking a step up by switching. In my case though it was a clear improvement.

Does anyone know if there are Black Friday sales for Apple Macbooks? The only one I found is Best Buy, but unfortunately they don't sell the model I want with 16 GB RAM.


----------



## james4beach

Just a heads up that the Costco web site has slowed to a crawl due to sales. If you're a member you can just buy it in the store, if you're after one of these G7s


----------



## agent99

james4beach said:


> agent99 in your case, the Samsung you got is already just as modern as this one, and you already have 32 GB. I don't think you'd be taking a step up by switching. .


Wasn't thinking of doing that. But if timing had been different and I could have saved $50 vs $20 on Black Friday, I would have probably bought the G7.

Right now, I helping neighbor - His Samsung S5 is getting warm and the battery runs down fast. Battery is user replaceable, so I will probably try that. Local fixit shops want $50-$60 - Batteries cost $10 on eBay!


----------



## cainvest

Picked up the G7 play tonight from Costco on the last day of the sale to try out, got 90 days to test it. 
A little smaller than my G4 Plus and a little lower screen res but I don't really notice the difference. It's definitely is faster but haven't done much with it yet, need to get a nano sim to switch over my account. It also doesn't support fast charging, I normally don't use that on my G4 anyways but it did come in handy a few times over the years. We'll see how good the supplied charger and USB3 ports work.


----------



## james4beach

I haven't received my mail order yet, and I don't have a Nano SIM anyway so I'll have to wait.

Can that USB3 port accept the regular old micro USB cable as well? I have several of those chargers.


----------



## cainvest

USB3 ports work with micro usb cables but the G7 is the new style type C connector.
They do have micro usb to type C adapters if you want to use older cables.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> USB3 ports work with micro usb cables but the G7 is the new style type C connector.
> They do have micro usb to type C adapters if you want to use older cables.


Thanks. If I get one of those adapters, can I then still connect the G7 to my Linux PC's USB port? This is how I was doing file transfers (and it works quite well between Linux and Android)


----------



## cainvest

Do see any reason why you couldn't but I've never tried it myself. The G7 comes with a USB type C cable for charging, just try it with that first.


----------



## cainvest

FYI, file transfer works fine between the computer and the G7 with the supplied USB cable.


----------



## james4beach

The Moto G7 Play from Costco is a new model for US/Canada: XT1952-4
The complete specifications don't exist online so they must have rolled this out very recently

Notes and impressions:

There's a pin-like tool which is used to pop open a little tray that contains the SIM card and optional SD card. This looks like a delicate assembly, so be careful with this part. You push the pin straigth into the hole, which pops open the tray.

I like the design of it. Reasonably narrow, so I'm able to grip it pretty well with one hand. However the metallic edges do seem a bit slippery, so I'd like to buy a plastic or rubber case for it. In the past I've had good results with simple TPU plastic cases, which have a rubbery grip.

It does indeed come with 2 GB memory and 32 GB internal storage. After installing the OS update and updating a few apps, there is 21 GB free space.

One pleasant surprise is the quality of the GPS receiver. Using the GPS Test app, I seem to be able to get a solid GPS (satellite) signal even when I'm pretty far indoors. None of my previous phones have been able to do this so I'm hoping this device's GPS is far better.

Fingerprint sensor is neat and convenient, but I wonder how accurate it is and how easily it can be fooled
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/...ecurity-smartphones-apple-google-samsung.html


----------



## agent99

My new Samsung has the same pin actuated tray. A pin came with the SIM I bought. 
It doesn't have a fingerprint sensor - uses facial recognition. This doesn't always work (say low light) so back up is a keypad. All a pain. I might turn it all off. 
GPS even on Moto 2e was fine. Never had a need to use it indoors . Haven't tried the Samsung GPS yet.


----------



## cainvest

james4beach said:


> One pleasant surprise is the quality of the GPS receiver. Using the GPS Test app, I seem to be able to get a solid GPS (satellite) signal even when I'm pretty far indoors. None of my previous phones have been able to do this so I'm hoping this device's GPS is far better.
> 
> Fingerprint sensor is neat and convenient, but I wonder how accurate it is and how easily it can be fooled
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/...ecurity-smartphones-apple-google-samsung.html


GPS does work good on these models, google fit tracks me inside most buildings fairly accurately.

I like the fingerprint sensor, very handy. Since I don't have anything that needs to be secure on my phones, it's no worry if it gets lost or stolen. I do wish you could also turn the display off using the fingerprint sensor like on my G4.

So far the battery life is very good, it is lasting much longer doing close to the same activities on my G4. Of course the G4s battery is 3 years old now so its lost some capacity I'm sure. There is a heat difference between the two playing the same games side by side so the newer chipset in the G7 appears to waste less power that way, also the G7 has a lower resolution screen so that helps save on GPU power.

Comparing the screens a little more closely I do notice the display is not as nice as on my G4 Plus. Sharpness is only slightly lower but the contrast / saturation is noticeable when side by side, the G7 looks a little washed out. Keep in mind my G4 plus was $249 three years ago, a $100 more than the G7 now. I do wish they'd bring the newer G# Plus models back to Canada.

So far I'm still liking the G7 for the $149 price tag but I still have a while to test it before I decide to keep or return it.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> So far I'm still liking the G7 for the $149 price tag but I still have a while to test it before I decide to keep or return it.


I don't have a SIM card yet so I haven't been able to test much. Did you also get it at Costco?


----------



## cainvest

Yes, bought it in store at Costco, not online.


----------



## james4beach

Definitely a good return policy. I also have to test it longer before deciding whether to keep it. For me the critical thing is how it does with cell signals in both US & Canada as I travel. I want to make sure it's picking up US carriers as well as Rogers + Telus + Bell in Canada. I should know in December when I cross through several provinces and states.


----------



## cainvest

james, your G7 frequencies are listed here -> https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_moto_g7_play-9532.php#usa


----------



## james4beach

I've been using the Moto G7 Play for a few days now. This is the Canadian model from Costco.

It's working great with my US carrier, perfect LTE within the US. I'm also getting pretty good battery life so far. With my moderate usage (some voice calls, lots of texting, occasional maps and GPS) I'm getting between 1 day and 2 days on a full charge.

So far that's comparable to my older Moto E. I hoped for a bit more, but at least it's not worse battery life.

Next step will seeing how good the reception is with Telus, Rogers and Bell and whether it gets full speed LTE.

I definitely recommend getting a plastic case for it. The phone is a bit slippery at the edges so it can easily slip out of fingers. A plastic/rubber case will help with that.


----------



## Earl

The Moto G7 Play is $159 at Costco now. Looking at its specs, it seems to be a decent mid range phone that should satisfy most people. My one complaint about it is no NFC, so I couldn't use Google Pay. I don't want to go back to taking my credit card out of my pocket like some kind of cave man.


----------



## Earl

Also, I have recently changed phone providers, to Lucky Mobile. They are a subsidiary of Bell and use Bell's network. $25/month for unlimited talk/text, and 1 gb of data, but after you use up the 1 gb you can continue to use an unlimited amount of data, only at throttled down speeds. Still good enough for basic stuff like messaging and emailing, which is all I use data for anyways. So far I'm happy and am saving a lot of money compared to my previous provider.


----------



## fireseeker

Earl said:


> Also, I have recently changed phone providers, to Lucky Mobile. They are a subsidiary of Bell and use Bell's network. $25/month for unlimited talk/text, and 1 gb of data, but after you use up the 1 gb you can continue to use an unlimited amount of data, only at throttled down speeds. Still good enough for basic stuff like messaging and emailing, which is all I use data for anyways. So far I'm happy and am saving a lot of money compared to my previous provider.


Sounds like a good fit for you.

Others should be aware Lucky's 1GB is at 3G speed. And data overages are throttled to 128Kbps.


----------



## james4beach

I was playing with this Moto phone while traveling and hiking. If it would interest anyone, I can try posting some photos to show what kind of images it's able to grab. It does seem to have a pretty good HDR mode (high dynamic range)... the quality of HDR varies between phones, but this one looks better than my last one. HDR tends to end up with more vibrant colours and picks up more details than standard images.

Let me know if there's interest and I'll try posting some high resolution. Pretty happy with this phone overall. Even making a few calls and texting a lot, I'm seeing it sometimes last 3 days between charges. Really happy with this choice due to my travel needs.

Also perfectly good LTE on Telus across western Canada. Haven't gotten a chance to try Bell yet.


----------



## cainvest

Costco still has it on sale, ends on the 31st though.


----------



## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Costco still has it on sale, ends on the 31st though.


By the way, I told some US coworkers about the phone. The price in Canada at costco is cheaper than what you can find in the US, even on Amazon (at the time I looked).

In fact I could not locate a comparable low end smartphone in the US at a competitive price. Just mentioning this because people seem to have a misconception about electronics always being cheaper in the US.


----------



## agent99

I don't know why, but for your phone and mine, Bestbuy.com have low offers for unlocked phones if you choose "activate now". This on several major carriers. $80 for your phone. $130 otherwise for activate later. More than the Costco price, but about same or less than store prices in Canada.

By the way, my Samsung A10e seems just fine - No complaints.


----------



## cainvest

agent99 said:


> I don't know why, but for your phone and mine, Bestbuy.com have low offers for unlocked phones if you choose "activate now".


Prices are normally different if you are activating with some carrier, same thing in Canada.


----------



## agent99

cainvest said:


> Prices are normally different if you are activating with some carrier, same thing in Canada.


True, but this was for unlocked phones. I suppose it depends on what you have to sign up for.


----------



## AltaRed

agent99 said:


> True, but this was for unlocked phones. I suppose it depends on what you have to sign up for.


All phones have to be unlocked in Canada now... since Dec 1, 2017. https://www.whistleout.ca/CellPhones/Guides/Unlock-Phone-in-Canada-guide

It is the signing up for 2 year plans with a carrier that gets one a discounted (and supposed to be) unlocked phone.


----------



## ian

We very much prefer to own our cell phones, unlocked, and NOT sign up for any carrier's term contract. We want the ability to pick and choose plans based on current market rates...not rates we locked in to in prior years.


----------



## agent99

ian said:


> We very much prefer to own our cell phones, unlocked, and NOT sign up for any carrier's term contract. We want the ability to pick and choose plans based on current market rates...not rates we locked in to in prior years.


Some of those lower cost unlocked phones may still be tied to the carrier - As James had been concerned about when buying.


----------



## ian

It is very easy to get an unlock code on the web.


----------



## agent99

ian said:


> It is very easy to get an unlock code on the web.


This is true, but unlocking is not the only issue. Especially if buying a phone off ebay or Kijiji or maybe even Amazon. Factory unlocked is what I would look for.

I am sure James can expound on this, but this link explains some of the pitfalls: https://www.androidauthority.com/what-is-an-unlocked-phone-960359/


----------



## Earl

I wouldnt buy a phone from some sketchy kijiji or ebay seller. There are deals to be had from reputable retrailers if you just look. For example, the Moto Z3 Play is $150 if you use code motomadness at checkout: https://intl.motorola.com/ca/mods-and-accessories/phones/moto-z3-play-pdp/

This is a decently specced phone, better than the G7 Play mentioned earlier.


----------



## agent99

Earl said:


> This is a decently specced phone, better than the G7 Play mentioned earlier.


Even although a 1 year older model, it does compare well with G7 (and my A10e). At $150, that is 1/2 price so perhaps they are clearing older models?

https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=9790&idPhone2=9532&idPhone3=9003#diff-*,*,*


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## ian

I would not buy a used phone from an unknown vendor-especially on kijiji. Lots of stolen product out there.

The new, unlocked cell phone market has really opened up over the past 18 months. Lots of great product, competition is sharper and continues to improve as people move away from phone inclusive cell povider plans. 

We found a huge difference in the marketplace from when I purchased a phone on Amazon two years or so ago to when my spouse purchased one just over a year ago. Plus, there seems to be a lot more third party data and reviews of the various cell phone offerings. The marketplace has changed for the better over the past 24 months.


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## james4beach

The random vendors on kijiji, also on Amazon and Best Buy marketplace, are also re-selling phones they bought for cheap in third world markets. Amazon has no controls or even assurances about what vendor is selling what precise model. This is why you have to be extremely careful about what precise model you're getting.

Regarding my concern earlier about frequency compatibility, this means you could end up with a model from Brazil or Latin America that has limited frequency support in Canada/US. That can mean you'll get poor performance, limited connectivity and potentially no LTE high speed.

For example what a small entrepreneur might do is find some promotion at an off-beat telco in Brazil and get a large number of handsets for cheap. Then they bring them into Canada and resell them for much higher prices. Superficially that sounds OK until you consider my point earlier that each telco will custom tune the phones for their needs, and frequency compatibility can vary widely between regions and telcos.


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## james4beach

In case anyone is curious, the Moto G7 Play is still sold through the Costco web site (no membership needed) though the price has gone up to $205. Maybe that $50 sale will come back some time?

I really do like the phone. Fingerprint-based unlocking is very convenient! The GPS works great, much better than my previous Moto phone. The overall system experience is very good, no unnecessary junk installed, no carrier branding anywhere.

I often get very good LTE data connections. Currently on Telus, I'm getting 81 Mbps download, 44 Mbps upload. Tethering to my computer works great.

Those kinds of data rates are better than my usual home internet so I sometimes even tether my desktop PC to the Moto G7's wifi hotspot!


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## Money172375

Hi James..if I recall correctly...you’re considered about using banking apps, but no concern about fingerprint unlocking? I actually worry about that more. Maybe I watch too much sci-fi but a database of the worlds digitized fingerprints held by anyone (corps. Or govts) feels ominous,

and I’m sure a movie somewhere shows what happens to your finger when you refuse to unlock your phone when asked to by a criminal mastermind.


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## james4beach

I am concerned about all the above. You're right, and I don't think the fingerprint lock is very secure. I don't think the whole platform (phone itself) is very secure... there are too many ways to compromise these things.

Because I don't think the platform is safe/secure, I don't want to do any online banking from it. Basically, I assume my phone has already been compromised, either by some rogue criminal, or by government.

Most of the people I work with in computer security assume the same thing. There is an old story around my office. If you take a phone with you to the Blackhat Conference, you'd better power it off. Forget to do that, and your phone is toast (compromised). These things are actually pretty easy to hack.

This is a reason I don't like how TD wants to force me into using their app just to do basic things like phone their call center.


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## Retired Peasant

I don't think they're 'forcing' you. I phone their call center and don't have their app.


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## james4beach

Does anyone here use one of the Moto phones with Android 9?

My phone now has an update to Android 10 available. I wonder if running that update can break various things... has anyone tried an Android 9 to 10 upgrade on their Moto phone? How did it go?


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## twa2w

I have Android 10. Haven't noticed any big issues except for one. Previously I could wipe left on the very bottom of the screen to go back a screen when in web page. Now I have an X in the top left.

Oh, also when I used to swipe up in an app to close it. Now it just puts in in the back ground and returns you tot he home screen. I can then swipe up on the home screen and then swipe up on the minimized apps to close them. I may have changed some of these actions when I was playing around when I got the new version. I am not really savvy with this phone as it is relatively new to me. Came from a Samsung note so quite a bit different. Still sometimes use the old Samsung motions or controls by mistake.

Most annoying thing on this phone right from the start is on the phone number key pad is a + sign just below the 0. If you hit it instead of the zero when dialing a number, your screen display enlarges tot he point you can only see a small part of the display. Annoying as heck because I have big fingers and somewhat poor fine motor skills.


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Does anyone here use one of the Moto phones with Android 9?
> 
> My phone now has an update to Android 10 available. I wonder if running that update can break various things... has anyone tried an Android 9 to 10 upgrade on their Moto phone? How did it go?


I updated to android 10, same phone as you .. pretty much seamless.
It did replace the clock/battery meter on the main screen with just a clock which is a shame. Didn't look if it was an option I can turn back on though.

There were also some new gestures available but I skipped the tutorial.


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## james4beach

cainvest said:


> I updated to android 10, same phone as you .. pretty much seamless.
> It did replace the clock/battery meter on the main screen with just a clock which is a shame. Didn't look if it was an option I can turn back on though.
> 
> There were also some new gestures available but I skipped the tutorial.


This is good to hear, thanks!

On Android 9, to find that widget with the battery meter... was done by tapping and holding on the main screen. Then select Widgets. This old widget (the one with the battery meter circle) was under 'Time and Weather', maybe see if that still exists. Hold down to grab that widget and bring it to the home screen.


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## Xoron

james4beach said:


> Does anyone here use one of the Moto phones with Android 9?
> 
> My phone now has an update to Android 10 available. I wonder if running that update can break various things... has anyone tried an Android 9 to 10 upgrade on their Moto phone? How did it go?


I have the Moto G7 Power and recently did the 10 update. No major issues. Some annoyances that I had to change the settings. But overall a smooth upgrade


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## Retired Peasant

I'm still on Android 6. It's a Moto E, bought in 2015; still going strong and serving it's purpose.


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> This old widget (the one with the battery meter circle) was under 'Time and Weather', maybe see if that still exists.


Nope, appears to be gone now.


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## james4beach

Xoron said:


> I have the Moto G7 Power and recently did the 10 update. No major issues. Some annoyances that I had to change the settings. But overall a smooth upgrade


Thanks that's great to hear


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## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Nope, appears to be gone now.


I did the upgrade as well. And I noticed something that might help.

If the phone is off, and you pick it up (which wakes up the screen a bit) you will see the old widget: the digital clock, *with* the circle showing battery that remains, plus a percent battery indicator. I see it any time I pick my phone up off a table.

Also, immediately after I unlock the screen, I see the % battery above the clock, inside the circle. So it's easy to see how much battery remains.

If you don't see any of that, try going to Settings, then Battery, and enable "Battery percentage". Not sure if this helps.

By the way, this is really great that Motorola brought the latest Android version to this phone. This will extend the usable life of this, getting security updates for a while.


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## james4beach

Something about this Moto G7 Play that I like is the FM radio tuner!

I find that it has excellent reception and great audio quality, and also uses just about nil battery power. So I can walk around listening to FM radio instead of wasting data usage & battery. It also has a nifty recording function and can save radio to a file for later listening, which is really cool.


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## bgc_fan

james4beach said:


> Something about this Moto G7 Play that I like is the FM radio tuner!
> 
> I find that it has excellent reception and great audio quality, and also uses just about nil battery power. So I can walk around listening to FM radio instead of wasting data usage & battery. It also has a nifty recording function and can save radio to a file for later listening, which is really cool.


It's a little known fact that most phones have an FM tuner. It's just not advertised. 

I haven't tried it yet, but NextRadio app is supposed to be able to do that.


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## kcowan

I finally retired my iPhone 4S that I bought off Kijiji 8 years ago for $100. The Home button had failed and the work around was clumsy plus it was frozen at iOS9. So I bought an iPhone SE 2020 from Shaw Mobile for their $25/mo plan. (2 years) Obviously an opening special.


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## m3s

That's impressive! @kcowan

I gave my 2014 iPhone 6 to my father after swapping in a $20 battery and refreshing the $10 screen protector. It still works great. Personally I don't think you can get more value/year than a used iPhone with a battery refresh. The main upgrade for me with the newer ones is the water resistance and camera

You can get more life out of the batteries by not keeping them fully charged (contrary to old NiCd practices) I keep mine plugged in often so the batteries wear out but they're easy to replace. You can easily get 10 years out of an iPhone with a battery swap or 2 especially now with water resistance and cheap tempered glass protectors

I'm also wearing a 2016 Apple watch 2 a colleague gave me after scratching it diving in saltwater. Never thought it would last this long (replaced several straps, goes 2 days on a charge..)


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## like_to_retire

m3s said:


> You can get more life out of the batteries by not keeping them fully charged (contrary to old NiCd practices) I keep mine plugged in often so the batteries wear out but they're easy to replace.


I often read the opposite, in that charging to 100% is perfectly fine, and once the internal Lithium-ion battery hits 100%, charging stops.

My understanding is that the lifespan is simply measured in 'charge cycles' and the usual is around 500 cycles.

I use to charge my phone every day overnight, but figured that once it was charged to 100% (in an hour or so) it would eventually dip to 99% and then do a small 1% charge back to 100% and shut off. Do this 100 times and I get an extra charge cycle knocked off my battery. 

So I decided to just set it on the charger in the morning and it was ready after an hour. Works out OK, but I have no idea if it's the best thing to do. Man, you read a lot of contradicting stuff about the batteries. I tend to change my phone at least every four years, so maybe it just doesn't matter.

I was thinking about getting rid of my home phone and getting one of those Bluetooth home phone systems that use your cell phone. Then I still have a phone in every room, but it requires I set my phone near the base unit and would likely keep it sitting in the wireless charger all the time. This is why I was interested in battery life.

ltr


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## m3s

like_to_retire said:


> I often read the opposite, in that charging to 100% is perfectly fine, and once the internal Lithium-ion battery hits 100%, charging stops.
> 
> My understanding is that the lifespan is simply measured in 'charge cycles' and the usual is around 500 cycles.


Where do you read this? Charge cycle count doesn't tell as much as the max capacity and voltage state would

The best explanation I've seen is that the final charge % is harder on lithium batteries and keeping it charging at 100% is not good. Whether the chargers are smart enough to cut off I don't know

Some laptops have a setting to hold at 50% for this reason and the new Apple Airpods apparently learn routine to minimize full charge


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## like_to_retire

m3s said:


> Where do you read this? Charge cycle count doesn't tell as much as the max capacity and voltage state would


OK, I thought you would know this stuff, and I was just looking for a conversation, rather than a "where do you read this confrontation".

I have been trying to understand phone batteries as I wanted to know if leaving my phone in the charger all day to support a house cell phone system would shorten its life.

ltr


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## james4beach

With lithium ion (cell phone) batteries, if they are being stored or left unused for a while, it is best if they have a partial charge, maybe something like 30% to 50%.

With active daily use, I think it's best to charge them fully but then remove the charger, so that they aren't sitting there with 100% for a long time. Therefore I avoid charging my phone overnight. I charge it fully and then disconnect the charger. I also believe that you should try to avoid running it down to absolutely empty, so it's best to connect the charger when it gets somewhat low.

In other words I think lithium ion batteries don't like sitting at the extreme ends of fully charged/discharged. Best to charge it fully but not keep it at 100% for long periods. Recharge it when it gets kind of low, but not down to empty.

No harm if it totally discharges once in a while. I've just read that the sweet spot for battery charge level is 20% to 80%. Kind of like a person's equity allocation


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## m3s

like_to_retire said:


> I have been trying to understand phone batteries as I wanted to know if leaving my phone in the charger all day to support a house cell phone system would shorten its life.


Yea it's too bad they don't have a "maintain x charge" setting. Maybe get a powerbank in case power goes out etc

I've always had a habit of charging overnight. At first because I thought they had "memory" like the old rechargables and now to track sleep which drains power. Then I charge fully again when driving/riding which drains fast if not charging. My batteries wear out faster than they should

They aren't hard to replace though. They are stuck in with those "command strip" type sticker you just have to pull laterally


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## kcowan

One of the features of the new phone is a charging style to prolong battery life. I also no longer charge it overnight. It charges up really quickly and there is an optional 18 amp charger to do it quick like a bunny if needed.

The only downside is finding all the new features of iOS 13 after years stuck at iOS 9. Where I live, we are in a ShawMobile hotspot so I can leave it there and use my internet bandwidth for watching movies. Still learning...

I expect this phone to me with me through the years....


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## m3s

Oh hey there is an "optimized battery charging setting" in iOS now. Never noticed but mine was already on

It also says my battery is at 60% of its new capacity and that my battery voltage struggles sometimes. To be fair I did use it to navigate off-road cross-country 2 summers in a row. That's a brutal stress test on a phone

I also set "low power mode" while at work because I don't really use it


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## james4beach

cainvest said:


> FYI, file transfer works fine between the computer and the G7 with the supplied USB cable.


Question for everyone... if you bought a screen protector, where did you find one?


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## andrewf

Lots of options. Amazon, ebay, etc.


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> Question for everyone... if you bought a screen protector, where did you find one?


Sorry, never used one so I don't know.


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## cainvest

BTW, Costco has the newer Moto G phones online (G8's).


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## james4beach

cainvest said:


> Sorry, never used one so I don't know.


And your screen has been OK all this time? Maybe I have to be more careful handling mine.


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## cainvest

james4beach said:


> And your screen has been OK all this time? Maybe I have to be more careful handling mine.


Yup, never scratched (or broken) a phone screen yet. I also don't stick my phone into pockets with keys or change in them. I do use a case though, easier to handle than those slick phone surfaces.


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## andrewf

I have used screen protectors in the past. My current phone is a Samsung S9, which has a curved screen. I tried a screen protector but it would not maintain adhesion due to the curvature. I am just using an Otterbox Commuter case (fantastic). It has a raised ridge at the top and bottom of the phone to keep the screen surface off tables to prevent scratching and protect the screen somewhat from drops. I only ever put my phone in my right pocket (ie, no coins, keys, etc.). I do have the occasional drop but not often. I find I have to use a case on glass sandwich phones are they fall out of my pocket whenever I am sitting they are so slick. One phone previously I just put a dbrand vinyl sticker on the bad to increase the friction.

On previous phones I got some minor scratches on the display and a chip on the edge of the display glass. I like glass screen protectors and think curved screens are a silly gimmick. The S9 was just priced very competitively and is a good phone.


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## james4beach

Interesting, thanks @cainvest and @andrewf 

Cases are good, and I've used them in the past, but these darn "smart phones" are getting too large. I'm just happy that it fits into my jacket pocket at all.

I think the adhesive style screen protectors do help. I just am not sure where to buy one for my current Moto phone.


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## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Question for everyone... if you bought a screen protector, where did you find one?


Amazon. We are very hard on our phones. All of us get the screen protector while waiting for our cases. 

If you are in a rush, you can go to a phone dealer and get on there. It will be a lot more.


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## james4beach

Plugging Along said:


> Amazon. We are very hard on our phones. All of us get the screen protector while waiting for our cases.
> 
> If you are in a rush, you can go to a phone dealer and get on there. It will be a lot more.


Do you use Amazon Canada for the screen protectors? Or are you shipping from the US?


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## andrewf

Amazon Canada. It might be harder to find screen protectors for budget or less popular phones. If not, try ebay. Just search phone model plus tempered glass screen protector, if you want a glass one (similar in feel to the screen of the device).


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## like_to_retire

I've never used a screen protector. I just don't scratch my screen. The screens seem so hard, I can't imagine them scratching? What are you guys doing to them?

Any phone I've had, the case seems to lift the screen slightly off a surface if I lay it down on it. I carry my phone in my pocket - obviously I don't put it in a pocket with keys or coins - that would be dumb.

I did pass my phone a few months ago through the wash cycle when I forgot it in my shirt pocket, but it was fine since it was waterproof.

Any screen protector I've ever seen had all sorts of bubbles all over it. Useless.

ltr


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## Plugging Along

james4beach said:


> Do you use Amazon Canada for the screen protectors? Or are you shipping from the US?


Amazon Canada. I don't know where they all ship from. The fastest is through prime or shipped through amazon, I know some took forever and probably came through from China. I always order of amazon.ca


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## andrewf

like_to_retire said:


> I've never used a screen protector. I just don't scratch my screen. The screens seem so hard, I can't imagine them scratching? What are you guys doing to them?
> 
> Any phone I've had, the case seems to lift the screen slightly off a surface if I lay it down on it. I carry my phone in my pocket - obviously I don't put it in a pocket with keys or coins - that would be dumb.
> 
> I did pass my phone a few months ago through the wash cycle when I forgot it in my shirt pocket, but it was fine since it was waterproof.
> 
> Any screen protector I've ever seen had all sorts of bubbles all over it. Useless.
> 
> ltr


Plastic or glass screen protector?

It's more fine scratches the accumulate with time. From dust, grit, accidental encounters with hard objects like keys, etc.


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## Prairie Guy

I've never scratched my phone. It goes in its own pocket with nothing that can scratch it. It has a cheap rubber cover that has a bit of a lip so if it's dropped the screen doesn't hit the floor. It's 2 years old and still in near mint condition.

On the other hand, my GF's phone is both heavily scratched and cracked.


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## nathan79

Modern phones actually use plastic rather than glass screens, so they will scratch if given the opportunity, though they won't crack as easily as the glass ones used to.

I am normally very careful with my devices, so I was quite surprised when I scratched my iPhone's screen. They are not as scratch resistant as some people think. I obviously try to keep only my phone in my pocket, but accidents do happen.

Some people are very rough on their phones. I've seen my friend's phone after a year, and I couldn't do that much damage to a phone in 10 years. If you've noticed people getting a new phone every year or two, it might be that they've just trashed their old one.


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## andrewf

Very few use plastic screens--mostly just foldable devices. Most use either Gorilla Glass (Corning tempered glass) or like. iPhone uses synthetic sapphire glass.


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## nathan79

andrewf said:


> Very few use plastic screens--mostly just foldable devices. Most use either Gorilla Glass (Corning tempered glass) or like. iPhone uses synthetic sapphire glass.


My iPhone 6s certainly feels synthetic and not like glass... which IMO makes it "plastic", even if it doesn't fit the technical definition of plastic.


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## Brainer

like_to_retire said:


> I've never used a screen protector. I just don't scratch my screen. The screens seem so hard, I can't imagine them scratching? What are you guys doing to them?
> 
> Any phone I've had, the case seems to lift the screen slightly off a surface if I lay it down on it. I carry my phone in my pocket - obviously I don't put it in a pocket with keys or coins - that would be dumb.
> 
> I did pass my phone a few months ago through the wash cycle when I forgot it in my shirt pocket, but it was fine since it was waterproof.
> 
> Any screen protector I've ever seen had all sorts of bubbles all over it. Useless.
> 
> ltr


Then you were likely using a bad quality film. Try something of higher quality. I use an Armoursuit, and it is excellent. It's already protected by phone after 2 bad drops. It also has the added bonus of reducing all the glare.

Also, you have to follow the application instructions very carefully. Did you read them and follow the to a "T"?


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## like_to_retire

Brainer said:


> Then you were likely using a bad quality film. Try something of higher quality. I use an Armoursuit, and it is excellent. It's already protected by phone after 2 bad drops. It also has the added bonus of reducing all the glare.
> 
> Also, you have to follow the application instructions very carefully. Did you read them and follow the to a "T"?


Well, I've never tried a screen protector because I just don't scratch my screen. My experience with them is observing other people who use them and they always seem to have bubbles.

ltr


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## andrewf

like_to_retire said:


> Well, I've never tried a screen protector because I just don't scratch my screen. My experience with them is observing other people who use them and they always seem to have bubbles.
> 
> ltr


You tend to get bubbles with the plastic ones. Glass screen protectors generally don't have this problem.


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## Juggernaut92

This is an interesting thread. Here is what I try and do:
-buy a brand new sealed phone from kijij/store/online
-go with a carrier that had a bring your own device plan

I currently have a xiaomi redmi note (forget the number). Bought it on amazon for around $300 before tax and bought it on may 2018. If I can get it to may 2021 then that would have been a good investment. 

I may get a pixel 3a next and I believe it costs around $500 right now but should be lower later. I was thinking of spending a bit more next time because I am thinking into getting into some kind of insta marketing where I would need to a phone with excellent camera quality to take good pictures.


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## BillJohnson

Juggernaut92 said:


> This is an interesting thread. Here is what I try and do:
> -buy a brand new sealed phone from kijij/store/online
> -go with a carrier that had a bring your own device plan
> 
> I currently have a xiaomi redmi note (forget the number). Bought it on amazon for around $300 before tax and bought it on may 2018. If I can get it to may 2021 then that would have been a good investment.
> 
> I may get a pixel 3a next and I believe it costs around $500 right now but should be lower later. I was thinking of spending a bit more next time because I am thinking into getting into some kind of insta marketing where I would need to a phone with excellent camera quality to take home pictures.


I's suggest Xiaomi Mi Note 10 as it's claimed as a as a photography-focused device with its 6.47 Full HD+ display.


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## andrewf

While fuel efficiency improvements are laudable, you guys seem to be missing the point that burning stuff is harmful your health.


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## Prairie Guy

andrewf said:


> While fuel efficiency improvements are laudable, you guys seem to be missing the point that burning stuff is harmful your health.


Not burning stuff is more harmful to your health. Live without cooking, transportation, and winter heat for a year and then come back and tell us how much better off you were.


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## andrewf

Only if there are not alternatives to burning stuff to achieve the same results. Cooking, transportation and heating can all be achieved with non-burning solutions.

And there is a non-trivial difference to burning something 500 km away vs 10 ft in front of your face, where you get to take deep breaths of pm 2.5, smog and carbon monoxide.


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## Juggernaut92

BillJohnson said:


> I's suggest Xiaomi Mi Note 10 as it's claimed as a as a photography-focused device with its 6.47 Full HD+ display.


I may pass on getting another xiaomi phone as the one I have currently keeps losing battery capacity.


----------



## latebuyer

Interested if anyone owns a google pixel? They have quite good reviews. Sometimes its hard to find a good camera with these cheaper phones. Also if anyone owns a cheap phone that is on the small side. I don't like the motos are so big. Would you say 3 years is the life span of a phone?


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## Juggernaut92

I do not own one but a friend owns the 3a. The camera quality is amazing and we have even done a informal photoshoot with friends with just his pixel 3a. I would think the newer pixel builds on top of older phones. Yes I would say 3 years is the life span of a phone. I think over 3 years is nice but I would replace it around that point as I do not want to run into an issue and have to replace it in a hurry.


----------

