# Looking for advice on new PC



## Four Pillars

Ok, so I can't get my stupid PC to work so I'm going to buy a new one.

I usually buy something fairly cheap - I have two monitors and use a browser, microsoft word, microsoft excel and I think that is it.

I was checking on Best Buy and they have some really super cheap comps - are these real computers or are they some kind of limited use machines?

This is the sort of machine I would normally buy:

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=75d499203a7ff961e930012846980723en02

There are several in the $100-$200 range like this one:

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=28672e46e70b1eb342e1110c4b326bfben02

Why is it so cheap?


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## bgc_fan

Four Pillars said:


> Ok, so I can't get my stupid PC to work so I'm going to buy a new one.
> 
> I usually buy something fairly cheap - I have two monitors and use a browser, microsoft word, microsoft excel and I think that is it.
> 
> I was checking on Best Buy and they have some really super cheap comps - are these real computers or are they some kind of limited use machines?
> 
> This is the sort of machine I would normally buy:
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=75d499203a7ff961e930012846980723en02
> 
> There are several in the $100-$200 range like this one:
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=28672e46e70b1eb342e1110c4b326bfben02
> 
> Why is it so cheap?


Well, the first one (Acer Aspire) is a newish model with a low-end processor that was released 2 years ago. The second one (HP Compaq CD7700) is a used computer that was originally sold 7 years ago.

Either one would probably meet your needs, but that's the short answer on why they are cheap.


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## Four Pillars

Mmm..good point. That 2nd one only has an 80gig hard drive which isn't big enough for all my pics/videos.

Maybe I'll just go for the ACER or something similar.


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## nathan79

The first one looks fine. The processor, HDD, and RAM are all more than adequate for your stated needs.

I'd steer clear of the second one, not because it's older and refurbished, but because it has only 1 GB of RAM with Windows 7 pre-installed. I wouldn't install Windows 7 on a machine with less than 2 GB of RAM, and preferably 4 GB for optimal performance. Of course, Microsoft will tell you that it will run fine on 1 GB, but in actuality you'll be limited in how many applications you can run at once, and you'll need to restart frequently to free up RAM.

The hard drive space is less important for you, since you didn't mention downloading music or video (edit: I see that you did mention it). Pretty much anything new would have plenty of storage space, and there's no reason to go with less than 500 GB.

If you have an independent computer shop in your area, you could probably have them update your existing computer for cheaper than buying new.

You mention that you have two monitors -- so you need to make sure whatever you buy has two outputs for video. Most cheaper models just come with one video output on the motherboard, so you may need to purchase an additional video card (or use the one from you current PC, if compatible).


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## financialnoob

The first one should be more than enough, but check the inputs as Nathan said.

I'm confused by how Best Buy wrote the specs, says there's 1 memory slot, 1 available. I think that means there's 2 and 1 is available. If that's the case, then that would mean you have one 4-gig memory stick and can pop in an additional 4-gig memory stick at a later time if you notice it slowing down. If it was two 2-gigs, you'd have to get rid of both and buy two new 4s.

Realistically, you don't need more than that. I know a lot of people who have spent way more than they need to just because they like the sound of it, but realistically, the average user should never spend more than $500 on a computer (not including monitor).


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## rikk

Four Pillars said:


> Ok, so I can't get my stupid PC to work so I'm going to buy a new one. I usually buy something fairly cheap ...


Sometimes, grasshopper, the answer is found within the question :distant:


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## carverman

The first one Acer looks to be the best choice if I were buying a new one. The refurbished one is just too old..basically a boat anchor, albeit a working boat anchor.
I bought mine used/refurbished off Kijji for $160. (no tax). 
No problems with it so far and its been with me for several months. Mine has a 500GB hard drive, 3GB of DDR (that's the fast ram) and a dual core Athelon 6300 processor with a 64 bit OS. 
Some of the older models are still 32 bit, so you should probably get the newer versions, 
although for most applications (unless you are running gaming processors) 32bit is sufficient.


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## carverman

financialnoob said:


> The first one should be more than enough, but check the inputs as Nathan said.
> 
> I'm confused by how Best Buy wrote the specs, says there's 1 memory slot, 1 available. I think that means there's 2 and 1 is available. If that's the case, then that would mean you have one 4-gig memory stick and can pop in an additional 4-gig memory stick at a later time if you notice it slowing down. If it was two 2-gigs, you'd have to get rid of both and buy two new 4s.


Generally they mean that the MoBo comes with two DDR2 mem slots. One slot is populated with a memory card and the other is vacant.
Well, you would need to do some checking on the specs first before spending the money on a 4GB card. Some of the older models they are flogging won't handle 8GB of memory, especially if they only come with 2GB DDR2 in the first slot. 
Addressing higher memory in the second slot (which is usually empty and available for expansion)]
depends on how the motherboard (MoBo) is configured for that aspect. On some older models, you can only go to 4GB of DDR2.

Personally, I would not trust what Best Buy or any of the other big box stores advertise. You really need to get more information on the
mother board used and the processor type. The manufacturer of both will have the correct specs.


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## Four Pillars

You guys are good.

@Rikk - Haha. The last time I bought a 'cheap' pc it was still something like $500. The $150 price tags seemed 'too cheap'.


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## carverman

Four Pillars said:


> You guys are good.
> 
> @Rikk - Haha. The last time I bought a 'cheap' pc it will still something like $500. The $150 price tags seemed 'too cheap'.


Personally, I think that the desktop is going the way of the dina-shore, so why spend $500 + tax on one, unless you just won a lottery and don't care
how you spend your money.


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## kcowan

I bought a new HP G8 laptop in the spring with 4GB and 320 GB for $300 (craigslist). It was part of a Telus giveaway to new TV clients and this customer did not want his. It has Win7 on it. Note that the Acer is Win8. It has VGA and HDMI outputs but you probably need something else to drive 2 displays.


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## Four Pillars

carverman said:


> Personally, I think that the desktop is going the way of the dina-shore, so why spend $500 + tax on one, unless you just won a lottery and don't care
> how you spend your money.


I like the pc mainly because I like having a regular desk workstation with a proper keyboard and two lovely monitors. 



kcowan said:


> I bought a new HP G8 laptop in the spring with 4GB and 320 GB for $300 (craigslist). It was part of a Telus giveaway to new TV clients and this customer did not want his. It has Win7 on it. Note that the Acer is Win8. It has VGA and HDMI outputs but you probably need something else to drive 2 displays.


Yeah, the biggest hassle with two monitors is buying the adapters. I've already bought two different ones for two different pcs and have no doubt I'll be purchasing another one soon.


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## Toronto.gal

Four Pillars said:


> I like the pc mainly because I like having a regular desk workstation with a proper keyboard and two lovely monitors.


Ditto! Except that one lovely large monitor is good enough for me. 

Speaking of keyboards, I recently purchased a natural ergonomic one & absolutely loooove it!


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## Four Pillars

Toronto.gal said:


> Ditto! Except that one lovely large monitor is good enough for me.
> 
> Speaking of keyboards, I recently purchased a natural ergonomic one & absolutely loooove it!


Tgal, have you tried a double monitor? I guess it depends on the usage and the person, but I really really like it.

I'm fine with the regular keyboard - I don't use the home pc enough to worry about ergonomic issues.


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## Sampson

Not exactly frugal, but get yourself one of these Mike.

2560x1440px is mind blowing.

Until Samsung makes the edge to edge LCDs for the desktop market, 27" is nice.


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## andrewf

I use dual monitors at work... I don't find it necessary at home.


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## Toronto.gal

Four Pillars said:


> 1. Tgal, have you tried a double monitor?
> 2. I'm fine with the regular keyboard - I don't use the home pc enough to worry about ergonomic issues.


1. Yes, but not for me.
2. I wasn't worrying about such issues either, I just wanted a new regular keyboard until I saw the ergo one at the store. I thought I would give it a try & glad I did!


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## Four Pillars

Sampson said:


> Not exactly frugal, but get yourself one of these Mike.
> 
> 2560x1440px is mind blowing.
> 
> Until Samsung makes the edge to edge LCDs for the desktop market, 27" is nice.


Oh my - that looks tempting. It might work as a second tv assuming I can attach a dvd player to it.

I think my 2x19" screens have more screen space however.

Can you hook up 3 monitors? Maybe have the 27" on the bottom and the two 19"ers on top. I'd have to build some sort of stand for them of course.


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## kcowan

Back in the late 80s, we did a workstation PC that supported 5 displays. But the software mapped up to 5 screens on each of the displays. It was used in FX trading rooms. The software was created in Sydney AU. No one ordered more than 3 physical displays. The displays would also display TV feeds because that is how Reuters came back then.


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## financialnoob

carverman said:


> Generally they mean that the MoBo comes with two DDR2 mem slots. One slot is populated with a memory card and the other is vacant.
> Well, you would need to do some checking on the specs first before spending the money on a 4GB card. Some of the older models they are flogging won't handle 8GB of memory, especially if they only come with 2GB DDR2 in the first slot.
> Addressing higher memory in the second slot (which is usually empty and available for expansion)]
> depends on how the motherboard (MoBo) is configured for that aspect. On some older models, you can only go to 4GB of DDR2.
> 
> Personally, I would not trust what Best Buy or any of the other big box stores advertise. You really need to get more information on the
> mother board used and the processor type. The manufacturer of both will have the correct specs.


I know, I just meant the way it is written on the Best Buy website:

Available Hard Drive Bays 1 (Occupied)
Available Optical Bays 1 (Occupied)
Available PCIe Slots 1 (1 Available)
Available PCI Slots 1 (Occupied)
Available AGP Slots Not Applicable
Available Memory Slots 1 Memory Slot (1 Available)

They all read as number of available slots, but sometimes it refers to them being occupied, sometimes as available. Just cracked me up is all.

FP: If one of your monitors is HDMI, you can probably get away with not having to get a second graphic card or adapters, just a cheap HDMI cable.


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## Four Pillars

Thanks for all the fine advice fellas...

I picked up this bad boy tonight... $399

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=489777d1f1db33ccbb1efc0441c785b3en02

I decided against the $1000 monitor and/or the 3 more small monitors. I'll just make do with the 2 19" ones I have.


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## Sampson

Four Pillars said:


> I decided against the $1000 monitor.


One can always dream 

I've been looking for an excuse to get one for work... no point lusting for something I don't have a chance of buying. I better talk to the boss tomorrow.


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## ShannonC

Sorry to kind of jump into this thread, but you guys seem to know a lot about this stuff and I could use some advice. What do you think of this one? 

http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/tablet/thinkpad/thinkpad-tablet-2/thinkpad-tablet-2-datasheet.pdf

I'd be hoping to use it more as a laptop (I want something lighter than a laptop preferably) and would want to be able to do a lot of word writing in it (I need that for work).

Do you think this would be a good choice?


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## bgc_fan

ShannonC said:


> Sorry to kind of jump into this thread, but you guys seem to know a lot about this stuff and I could use some advice. What do you think of this one?
> 
> http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/tablet/thinkpad/thinkpad-tablet-2/thinkpad-tablet-2-datasheet.pdf
> 
> I'd be hoping to use it more as a laptop (I want something lighter than a laptop preferably) and would want to be able to do a lot of word writing in it (I need that for work).
> 
> Do you think this would be a good choice?


Generally speaking, a tablet should not be considered a laptop replacement, despite all the marketing to do so. Adding a bluetooth keyboard does not generally do the trick. However, if you plan on doing a lot of word writing on it, you should check out the bluetooth keyboards to see how well you like typing with them. If you have large hands, you can find the reduced keyboard size a pain. That should be your first consideration before continuing forward.

Otherwise, are battery life and weight critiical issues? Tablets are meant for content consumption (browsing internet, reading files) and not really for content production (writing up word documents). If you want a laptop, sometimes a laptop is what you should get. Think about how you plan on using it as well, tablets, unless they have a really good docking system, tend to be handheld, or used at a table/desk. They can be finicky on being used on your lap.

But, YMMV as always.


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## indexxx

Why mess around? Sounds like it's time to step up to Mac.


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## carverman

To FP: Can't go wrong with that selection. Acer has a good reputation for reliabilty, So is ASUS, which make a lot of the MoBo for todays desktops.
Having a quad core processor with 8GB of DDR3 means that it will run at high performance for you.
However, having said that..Best Buy and most large box stores do not go into specifics about the details on the specs. For instance DDR3 comes in several clocking speeds. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM

The AMD A6 3620 may not the fastest processor from the AMD family, but represents value for price at 2500 mhz cpu clocking speed.
And the other attribute is you can run it "overclocking" if you play any complex video games expecially with the Radeon games processor
card, which is an option..but greatly speeds up graphics. 

Here are the specs on the AMD 3620 
http://products.amd.com/pages/deskt...5=FM1+uPGA&f6=&&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1


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## carverman

indexxx said:


> Why mess around? Sounds like it's time to step up to Mac.


I actually looked at one at Best Buy last year...beautiful display, and very compac..but the prices are still way up there ..$2500 or so for the one I was looking at
and I hate their keyboards..tiny and no tactile feel to the keys.


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## carverman

ShannonC said:


> Sorry to kind of jump into this thread, but you guys seem to know a lot about this stuff and I could use some advice. What do you think of this one?
> 
> http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/tablet/thinkpad/thinkpad-tablet-2/thinkpad-tablet-2-datasheet.pdf
> 
> I'd be hoping to use it more as a laptop (I want something lighter than a laptop preferably) and would want to be able to do a lot of word writing in it (I need that for work).
> 
> Do you think this would be a good choice?


As bgc_fan mentioned..if you are going to try to use it as a laptop..you need to invest in a bluetooth keyboard and mouse which is extra cost..then you have the small
display screen to deal with. Even with this arrangement, you are not going to get the satisfaction of a good laptop with a big screen.


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## andrewf

carverman said:


> I actually looked at one at Best Buy last year...beautiful display, and very compac..but the prices are still way up there ..$2500 or so for the one I was looking at
> and I hate their keyboards..tiny and no tactile feel to the keys.


The prices are flat out absurd.


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## carverman

andrewf said:


> The prices are flat out absurd.


Yes, that's what I thought. Apple is cornering the market on their products not allowing second sourc
es to maintain their high prices. 
With no competition (with the same type of operating system), they seem to justify their high prices. 
What I like about them is the Unix? operation system having less susceptibility to viruses.


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## Four Pillars

carverman said:


> To FP: Can't go wrong with that selection. Acer has a good reputation for reliabilty, So is ASUS, which make a lot of the MoBo for todays desktops.
> Having a quad core processor with 8GB of DDR3 means that it will run at high performance for you.
> However, having said that..Best Buy and most large box stores do not go into specifics about the details on the specs. For instance DDR3 comes in several clocking speeds.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM
> 
> The AMD A6 3620 may not the fastest processor from the AMD family, but represents value for price at 2500 mhz cpu clocking speed.
> And the other attribute is you can run it "overclocking" if you play any complex video games expecially with the Radeon games processor
> card, which is an option..but greatly speeds up graphics.
> 
> Here are the specs on the AMD 3620
> http://products.amd.com/pages/deskt...5=FM1+uPGA&f6=&&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1


A bit over my head, but I'm glad you approve.


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## carverman

Four Pillars said:


> A bit over my head, but I'm glad you approve.


It helps to understand a bit about the inner workings. Not saying that you need to go into it any further though.


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## andrewf

If you like unix, you can buy that $400 Acer and slap Ubuntu (linux) on it. It's user friendly/looks like windows.


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## Sampson

I'm not exactly an Apple fanboy, have and use Macs at home and work and for the 'inexperienced' - getting the user experience via Mac OSX is much easier than through linux.

While specs can be important, I've really always found my Apple computer products to feel less dated than a similar PC product. Windows can easily get bloated and inefficient (of course one can always pare down or even reload the OS), and most home users probably run their computer equipment at 30-40% efficiency do to various software add-ons etc.

Whether a slightly longer shelf-life for the Mac offsets the initial price? Dunno about that. Just encourage your boss to pay for it.


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## andrewf

Have you used ubuntu lately? It's pretty user friendly, especially for basic tasks like browsing the net, word processing, etc. I never found iOS particularly user friendly in comparison (coming from a windows-trained brain). Always made worse by the horrid single button mouse with the scroll ball that gets jammed...


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## Four Pillars

andrewf said:


> If you like unix, you can buy that $400 Acer and slap Ubuntu (linux) on it. It's user friendly/looks like windows.


What are the advantages of Ubuntu over (already installed) Windows


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## andrewf

I don't think there are huge advantages. I think windows is fine for most things. There are some apps I use that are windows only. I like excel. These are why I use windows. Without this, I would gladly use linux instead for day-to-day computing. 

That said, I've used linux of various flavours in the past and it is also fine. It can be a bit finicky with drivers if you have some exotic hardware. More and more hardware makers are providing decent driver support for linux. 

Being able to keep an OS on a usb drive sounds useful in theory. I haven't felt the need to set this up, though.

All that said, I'm not sold on windows 8. Let us know what you think, FP.


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## Four Pillars

I would have preferred win7 since that's what I'm used to.

My wife is setting up the pc this morning and she reports that there is only one place to plug in a monitor. My old comp had two spots, although I had to use an adapter for one.

I'll have to check it out when I get home, but if I can't use two monitors - it's going back.

Does this make sense? Can you run two monitors out of one slot with the right adapter or is she not looking at it right?

Or I guess I can add a slot. I wonder if that's what I did on the old computer? Maybe I can get that part off the old comp.


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## Four Pillars

Update - apparently there is an HDMI thingy so we can use that. I just have to buy a cord or adapter which Financial Noobie had mentioned upthread.


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## andrewf

Does you old PC have a pci express video card? You might just be able to pop that into the new machine. IIRC, it has a free pci express slot.


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## SpIcEz

rikk said:


> OT: My media server (retired Wolfdale driven), which I also use to watch movies while on the treadmill, is running linux with XBMC on top from a USB stick that's also the wireless mouse dongle ... sure beats the old config ... XBMC on windows on a harddrive. Now, not a general purpose PC for sure. That Knoppix I mentioned was on a CD ... I'd boot that when travelling with my laptop for emails etc. ... and banking ... keep the internet stuff away from the business stuff


I myself preferred installing XBMC linux on a 16gb Kingston SSD for my Shuttle htpc. Makes the XBMC interface a whole lot faster and snappier IMO.


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## Four Pillars

rikk said:


> Ok ... last post ... that would be the output for a 1920x1080 TV ... it can sometimes be problematic setting up the resolution for that output, getting the displays you want to that output and to your monitor output ... sometimes.


Sounds like I need that $1000 monitor after all...


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## carverman

Four Pillars said:


> I would have preferred win7 since that's what I'm used to.
> 
> My wife is setting up the pc this morning and she reports that there is only one place to plug in a monitor. My old comp had two spots, although I had to use an adapter for one.
> 
> I'll have to check it out when I get home, but if I can't use two monitors - it's going back.


Most of the cheaper PCs come with a single VGA monitor plug. Does it have a DVI port as well? Most of the new monitors have dvi and I believe the newer PCs, although for some you may need a second video card. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface

Here's a suggested hookup for two monitors..
http://www.microsoft.com/athome/organization/twomonitors.aspx#fbid=37j0VEc1eV5


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## carverman

Four Pillars said:


> Sounds like I need that $1000 monitor after all...


Why spend $1000? i got a nice 21 inch ASUS monitor at Staples on sale for $269 at the time. It has the DVI and HDMI sockets as well as VGA.


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## Four Pillars

carverman said:


> Why spend $1000? i got a nice 21 inch ASUS monitor at Staples on sale for $269 at the time. It has the DVI and HDMI sockets as well as VGA.


Well, 27" is bigger than 21" link


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## Sampson

If you want bigger, lots of 24" decent monitors for $200.

The problem is if you want more resolution than 1920x1080 - I'm working off a 27" that has this resolution (for just under $300) and for some applications, imaging, multitasking (which is what you are probably doing with your duo monitor setup) it just isn't enough.

You can have multiple windows open, but they are overlapping.

A really nice option and relatively cheap is duo monitors, but different screen sizes. A $200 24" (1920x1080) as your primary screen, then a 19" (4:3 format, not wide screen) as a secondary monitor.

@andrewf - come on... you gotta get out of the 90's with your single button, roller ball mouse. If you have ever used a new trackpad, the intuitiveness of interacting and things you can easily do with a finger or two is great. Sure Windows 8 has caught up, but I can't comment since I've never used that platform yet.


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## Sampson

how about this Asus?


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## Four Pillars

Good stuff Sampson. That particular Asus doesn't seem to be very available however.

I'll have to look and see if I can get something similar. Under $300 for a 27" would be fine.


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## Four Pillars

This one might be ok

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254093


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## carverman

Four Pillars said:


> Well, 27" is bigger than 21" link


Why not go for a 40 inch flat screen tv then? I got a Sharp 40 inch recently for around $549 on sale. It has 3 HDMI ports, VGA, DVI and other inputs as well.
Go big or go home as they say..If you got the room. The nice thing about the new flat screen tvs is that you can wall mount them easily and rid your desk of a huge monitor.


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## m3s

I'm using a 21" (or 22) Samsung from Newegg.ca at 1920x1080 and if anything it's too big. I can't imagine bigger really, you have to sit further back to even see both ends of the screen lol HDMI to the TV on the wall for videos.

Don't buy big box computers... when something fails you just have to buy a whole new computer. I never really have to replace my case, fans, psu, hdd etc unless they fail. It's easy enough to swap out individual components with better ones that last. I could build a completely fresh running PC with just a mobo and memory for example

I've tried to fix the big box ones and they always have weird mobo's and cheap fans/psu etc


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## Four Pillars

rikk said:


> No no ... not what I meant ... just saying using that hdmi output could be problematic.


Too late - I already bought it! 

Kidding. I was just joking about buying that monitor for the hdmi input.


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## Four Pillars

carverman said:


> Why not go for a 40 inch flat screen tv then? I got a Sharp 40 inch recently for around $549 on sale. It has 3 HDMI ports, VGA, DVI and other inputs as well.
> Go big or go home as they say..If you got the room. The nice thing about the new flat screen tvs is that you can wall mount them easily and rid your desk of a huge monitor.


I don't really have the room. Neat idea though. Ideally I'd like to just keep my 2 19" monitors - I think they are perfect.


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## andrewf

I have an Asus laptop that does multitouch gestures nicely. They were still making those mice until 2008 or so at least. I had the displeasure of using them (I would bring my own mouse to the lab if I had to do any real work).


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## rikk

Four Pillars said:


> Too late - I already bought it!
> 
> Kidding. I was just joking about buying that monitor for the hdmi input.


Yeah, I know ... a $1K monitor didn't quite fit with your category cheap  ... now if you'd said a 56" plasma I might have believed you. I too prefer my 19" monitors ... they're old LG 1280x1024s ... I prefer the 4:3 ratio especially for triple monitor gaming. 

These things are just tools I was thinking ... imagine a couple of million years ago, the guys sitting around the fire ... "Molak has double headed spear, he say save him time, just grab and throw, no need to make sure pointy end go first, both ends pointy .. and if sabre tooth surprise him, he break in half, have 2 pointy things for battle, bleeding edge technology he say ... Golag on other hand swear by big heavy single headed spear, he say mastadon freeze in tracks like deer in headlights when see his big spear ... Arlog on other hand swears by his big heavy rocks, rocks/stones everywhere, never a shortage, stoneage never end ... what to do, what to do ... "


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## indexxx

andrewf said:


> The prices are flat out absurd.


Can't agree with that statement- one gets what one pays for. My top-of-the-line PC laptop was initially cheaper than a comparable Mac- but then in the space of three years I had to replace the hard drive, DVD player, two power supplies, and had a major crash that crippled me for two weeks and lost some un-backedup data. Total repair and maintenance over that time period: about $900, and now it's so bloated and slow that I can't even use it to watch movies, so it's a $2,000 paperweight. My Macbook Pro has run absolutely flawlessly for three years with no problems or breakdowns whatsoever, still has over 8 hours of battery life, and I have no worries about viruses, defragging the hard drive, running malware programs all the time, etc etc. My time is worth something and if I have to run spam software all the time it's a pain. Also, Mac comes with a lot of excellent software included- the iLife suite is great. I resisted Mac for years due to price concerns, compatibility concerns, etc but now there is no way I'd ever switch back to a Windows platform. Quality product that I rely on for my productivity.


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## andrewf

indexx, that is not typical. Your PC failed more often than usual and your mac failed less often than usual (yes, Macs fail).

Apple doesn't even make the most reliable hardware.

Also note that most new apple devices are effectively unfixable in the event of failure.

And honestly--defragging the hard drive? Who's stuck in the '90s now?


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## financialnoob

FP: You should check both of your existing monitors. Do they have other ports in? Sometimes monitors have multiple options, even if they only ship with the VGA cable. If it has an HDMI port, then you wouldn't even have to replace one of the monitors.

I think people do get a bit carried away with Apple products. They are better for some people, but not for everyone, and they have an incredible price premium associated with them which can run anywhere from $300 to $1,000 depending on the product. Apple makes perfect products for some people, but quite frankly, it is absolutely terrible for others. It really comes down to need and usage. I would never recommend only a PC or only a Mac or only Linux; depends on each specific individual.


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## indexxx

andrewf said:


> indexx, that is not typical. Your PC failed more often than usual and your mac failed less often than usual (yes, Macs fail).
> 
> Apple doesn't even make the most reliable hardware.
> 
> Also note that most new apple devices are effectively unfixable in the event of failure.
> 
> And honestly--defragging the hard drive? Who's stuck in the '90s now?


My wife has had nothing but trouble with her PC also. And I always had to defrag my drive- this was a computer I bought in 2003, not the 90's- of course now the thing is basically unusable so it's a moot point. Just speaking from my experience and that of every Mac user I personally know. But to each their own of course! If it works for you, more power to it.


----------



## ShannonC

bgc_fan said:


> Generally speaking, a tablet should not be considered a laptop replacement, despite all the marketing to do so. Adding a bluetooth keyboard does not generally do the trick. However, if you plan on doing a lot of word writing on it, you should check out the bluetooth keyboards to see how well you like typing with them. If you have large hands, you can find the reduced keyboard size a pain. That should be your first consideration before continuing forward.
> 
> Otherwise, are battery life and weight critiical issues? Tablets are meant for content consumption (browsing internet, reading files) and not really for content production (writing up word documents). If you want a laptop, sometimes a laptop is what you should get. Think about how you plan on using it as well, tablets, unless they have a really good docking system, tend to be handheld, or used at a table/desk. They can be finicky on being used on your lap.
> 
> But, YMMV as always.


Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I would definitely invest in the bluetooth keyboard and mouse for sure, that would be a given. I did read about size though so would try it out. Mostly I'd be using it at a table...not so much on my lap. I just like that they're smaller and so lightweight, so it's easier to take with me wherever I'm going (out to coffee shops to work, etc). My laptop is much bigger and clunky (I have a HP Pavillion). The smaller screen is a good point as well... that could be a bit frustrating. 

I'm going to go look at both next week, so then I'll get a better feel in person. I have thought about going to a mac but they feel so different; I'm not sure I really like them and I can't type on their keyboards at all! Maybe I would adapt, but my speed of typing essentially determines my pay (I'm a writer so being fast is of the essence), so not sure I want to mess around with that. That may entirely rule out the tablet though if I find it awkward. I read reviews on this one though and they said the bluetooth is very similar to the regular size.


----------



## bgc_fan

ShannonC said:


> Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I would definitely invest in the bluetooth keyboard and mouse for sure, that would be a given. I did read about size though so would try it out. Mostly I'd be using it at a table...not so much on my lap. I just like that they're smaller and so lightweight, so it's easier to take with me wherever I'm going (out to coffee shops to work, etc). My laptop is much bigger and clunky (I have a HP Pavillion). The smaller screen is a good point as well... that could be a bit frustrating.


Well, they do have "ultrabooks", or netbooks as options. The ultrabooks being more expensive and larger. For the record, I have a Playbook that I usually carry with me when I go out, but I would not do any serious work with that. If I want to work with documents, I would bring my netbook with me. The size of the netbook could be about the same, although a little more heavier (around a 1kg or so). However, the price is probably lower. Of course the battery life would be lower on a netbook (still 4-5 hours depending on usage), but it is another option.

The whole mac thing is a personal issue and not really the point here as in terms of size and weight (your criteria), the two are fairly equal. You just pay a premium to be on a mac platform. You can write word documents and surf as easily as on one as on the other... Same with Linux for that matter, though you would use OpenOffice, or LibreOffice in that instance.


----------



## bgc_fan

indexxx said:


> My wife has had nothing but trouble with her PC also. And I always had to defrag my drive- this was a computer I bought in 2003, not the 90's- of course now the thing is basically unusable so it's a moot point. Just speaking from my experience and that of every Mac user I personally know. But to each their own of course! If it works for you, more power to it.


Defragging a hard drive is something that I thought was gone since Win 3.1. Mainly the fact that FAT32 did not require it as much as FAT16. At any case, I'm a PC shop and have not really had much in the way of problems. Half my computers run Linux (Lubuntu - a Ubuntu variant for lower speed computers: a netbook, and 12 year old PIII), and the others are XP that came with the computer (laptop and desktop that I use for media streaming on the TV). I've considered updating my PIII, but I don't see the real need. Never had any real or major problems. Personally, I don't see the value of the Mac premium, though for some who have limited and specific needs, it works out. But the minute you step outside the sandbox and want to do something that is outside the norm, you can get into trouble.

As an example, how do you backup only photos on a Mac onto an external hard drive, in such a way that you can take the hard drive to another computer (either Mac or PC) so that you can easily plug it in and look them in some sort of organized fashion? Using a PC, it has a nice directory structure that I can use and simply copy it over to an external drive. Using a Mac though, all the photos are spread all over the map and not in any consistent fashion. The only option I saw was to use iPhoto to select the photos and copy them into the external drive, but this is hardly a useful option when you deal with a large number of files and you want to do some periodic updates to refresh your backup.


----------



## carverman

Four Pillars said:


> I don't really have the room. Neat idea though. Ideally I'd like to just keep my 2 19" monitors - I think they are perfect.


Just an idea, since you seemed to be looking at bigger monitors. I have a 21.5 inch ASUS and it's great. With my HP printer and 5.1 surround sound speakers on my desk, I wouldn't have room for two monitors anyway.

BTW..just noticed in the latest Staples flyer..they have a full HD 21.5" Samsung monitor for $99 (after instore savings is applied) and an Acer 23" for $149.00.
Note: there is a disposal fee tacked onto that price of around $20 plus taxes.


----------



## carverman

bgc_fan said:


> As an example, how do you backup only photos on a Mac onto an external hard drive, in such a way that you can take the hard drive to another computer (either Mac or PC) so that you can easily plug it in and look them in some sort of organized fashion?


I have an external WD 1TB hard drive and although I use it for backup..it's a pain to use to take an image and then recover it.
For photos and any kind of important files, I'm using USB flash drives. You can get them up to 32GB now and that can hold a lot of pictures and portable as well to any computer,
since the files are JPEG format.


----------



## carverman

indexxx said:


> Can't agree with that statement- one gets what one pays for. My top-of-the-line PC laptop was initially cheaper than a comparable Mac- but then in the space of three years I had to replace the hard drive, DVD player, two power supplies, and had a major crash that crippled me for two weeks and lost some un-backedup data.


Tsk tsk! You should always have an external drive for backing up any important files. I don't run my PC 24/7..I depower it when not in use (after I've gone to sleep) and power it up again when I need to use it. 

I made the mistake once of leaving all my files on my hard drive including pictures that were not second sourced in any other
memory device, and my PC (actually the MoBo failed to power up after 2.5 years of use). 
Fortunately I was able to recover all my files from my hard drive..except it was a pain because the new Mobo has SATA drives (serial data) and the old Mobo that failed had ITE (the old parallel ribbon cable) drive. 

Now I back up any important files and pictures on a USB stick..they are so cheap to buy now.



> Total repair and maintenance over that time period: about $900, and now it's so bloated and slow that I can't even use it to watch movies, so it's a $2,000 paperweight.


Just like maintaining the operating performance of your car with tuneups..(ok spark plugs in modern cars), computers need to be tuned for optimal performance as well.
Most PCs will slow down and get "bloated" with hard drive segmentation and temporary files. In order to keep your PC tuned..yes tuned..you need to buy a optional application..I use CA PC Tuneup. Bought the licence for it ($49.00) and I run it periodically to clean out deadwood and optimize the processor speed. 

I don't have any problems running my old second hand PCs..but just like a vehicle, you have to maintain them periodically.


----------



## bgc_fan

carverman said:


> I have an external WD 1TB hard drive and although I use it for backup..it's a pain to use to take an image and then recover it.
> For photos and any kind of important files, I'm using USB flash drives. You can get them up to 32GB now and that can hold a lot of pictures and portable as well to any computer,
> since the files are JPEG format.


Personally, I don't take that many pictures, but usually I consolidate my photos on the external hard drive and backup DVDS for each trip. USB keys are relatively cheap though so that's an option, but I'm not sure about the long term reliability of the USB sticks.


----------



## Four Pillars

financialnoob said:


> FP: You should check both of your existing monitors. Do they have other ports in? Sometimes monitors have multiple options, even if they only ship with the VGA cable. If it has an HDMI port, then you wouldn't even have to replace one of the monitors.


They don't have HDMI ports.

My plan is to try a HDMI to VGA cable/convert and see if that works.


----------



## carverman

Four Pillars said:


> They don't have HDMI ports.
> 
> My plan is to try a HDMI to VGA cable/convert and see if that works.


Your resolution is not going to be optimum with that kind of conversion.



> Today, the VGA analog interface is used for high definition video including 1080p and higher. While the VGA transmission bandwidth is high enough to support even higher resolution playback,* there can be picture quality degradation depending on cable quality and length. How discernible this quality difference is depends on the individual's eyesight and the display; when using a DVI or HDMI connection, especially on larger sized LCD/LED monitors or TVs, quality degradation, if present, is prominently visible.*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Graphics_Array
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI


----------



## Four Pillars

carverman said:


> Your resolution is not going to be optimum with that kind of conversion.


Hmmm....I'm not concerned about optimum resolution, but I don't want it to look like crap. 

I guess I can try it and see what happens.


----------



## financialnoob

Do you have your old computer still? You could pull out one of the video cards and put it into your new one?


----------



## Sampson

bgc_fan said:


> Well, they do have "ultrabooks", or netbooks as options. The ultrabooks being more expensive and larger.


MacBook Air (or one of those Asus clones to appease andrewf).

Full functionality and light as... well a tablet - almost.


----------



## Four Pillars

financialnoob said:


> Do you have your old computer still? You could pull out one of the video cards and put it into your new one?


Yup - that sounds like work, but I guess I could try it.


----------



## andrewf

And an expensive paperweight if it breaks. Unfixable.


----------



## Four Pillars

andrewf said:


> And an expensive paperweight if it breaks. Unfixable.


Which post are you referring to?


----------



## andrewf

Sampson said:


> MacBook Air (or one of those Asus clones to appease andrewf).
> 
> Full functionality and light as... well a tablet - almost.


This. Both the Air and its clones. They are designed to be slim and unfixable.


----------



## Sampson

Always the frugal pessimist.

In around 20 years of using computers, I think I've had one hardware problem - with a MacBook no less. I find these devices become obsolete rather than breakdown.

Just like a Mustang GT has its place, I'd rather lug my Air around that a tablet (of course tablets are starting to push $1000 nowadays), or even my wife's netbook, and like I say, not my monies going into it


----------



## andrewf

Though really, the only thing that fails in computers these days are fans and mechanical hard drives, and computers are moving away from using either. Fans are (or should be) easy to replace. They're still necessary if you want to haul around capable hardware.


----------



## My Own Advisor

@Four Pillars,

You really want a PC vs. laptop?


----------



## carverman

andrewf said:


> Though really, the only thing that fails in computers these days are fans and mechanical hard drives, and computers are moving away from using either. Fans are (or should be) easy to replace. They're still necessary if you want to haul around capable hardware.


Solid state drives will take care of that in laptops eventually. Although still expensive by comparison to HDD, 
the SSD will be cheaper and more available in the next few years, so the days of the mechanical hard drive may be limited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vertex_2_Solid_State_Drive_by_OCZ-top_oblique_PNr°0307.jpg


----------



## bgc_fan

carverman said:


> Solid state drives will take care of that in laptops eventually. Although still expensive by comparison to HDD,
> the SSD will be cheaper and more available in the next few years, so the days of the mechanical hard drive may be limited.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vertex_2_Solid_State_Drive_by_OCZ-top_oblique_PNr°0307.jpg


While that's true to a certain extent, SSD have a physical limit to write cycles. Grant it, due to the amount of blocks on a SSD to actually brick a SSD will take some time, but it all depends on how much you use it. It would depend on the OS as well, an OS that continually caches data onto the hard drive with continuous writes will reduce the lifespan of the SSD. Of course, even then with regular home use we could be talking about a decade.


----------



## carverman

bgc_fan said:


> Of course, even then with regular home use we could be talking about a decade.


SSDs are evolving just like hard drives have evolved with faster access times, less latency and better reliability in the next 10 years.
10 years is a long time when it comes to PCs...lot of changes can happen to memories (speed/capacity) and processor architecture.


----------



## Four Pillars

My Own Advisor said:


> @Four Pillars,
> 
> You really want a PC vs. laptop?


No. I have a laptop.


----------



## ShannonC

bgc_fan said:


> Well, they do have "ultrabooks", or netbooks as options. The ultrabooks being more expensive and larger. For the record, I have a Playbook that I usually carry with me when I go out, but I would not do any serious work with that. If I want to work with documents, I would bring my netbook with me. The size of the netbook could be about the same, although a little more heavier (around a 1kg or so). However, the price is probably lower. Of course the battery life would be lower on a netbook (still 4-5 hours depending on usage), but it is another option.
> 
> The whole mac thing is a personal issue and not really the point here as in terms of size and weight (your criteria), the two are fairly equal. You just pay a premium to be on a mac platform. You can write word documents and surf as easily as on one as on the other... Same with Linux for that matter, though you would use OpenOffice, or LibreOffice in that instance.


Thanks. Yeah, I'll probably look at a few mac's and see how they compare as well. I'm sure it would just be a matter of time and getting used to it, it's just new and different. I like the fact I could read ebooks on the tablet as well, so that sways me a bit that way, so maybe it's just a matter of being realistic on what I will and won't do on it.


----------



## bgc_fan

ShannonC said:


> Thanks. Yeah, I'll probably look at a few mac's and see how they compare as well. I'm sure it would just be a matter of time and getting used to it, it's just new and different. I like the fact I could read ebooks on the tablet as well, so that sways me a bit that way, so maybe it's just a matter of being realistic on what I will and won't do on it.


It's really a personal preference, but you just have to be positive that if you plan on typing away on a tablet that you should be comfortable with it. After all, if that is your primary criteria, the ability to read eBooks should be a minor consideration. Otherwise, you can accomplish the same thing with a light notebook and an ereader for a lower price point than a tablet. In some ways it's preferred as you have 2 devices that are specific for those tasks, rather than a jack of all trades that kind of does well on both and as a result, useless for either. The flip side is always 2 vs 1 device of course.


----------



## andrewf

I recently had to purchase a PC to replace my parents' recently dead all-in-one. It came with Windows 8--what a trainwreck that OS is.


----------



## none

I'd recommend a refurbished macbook air. The cost saving from getting a refurb will almost pay for your apple car.

you can't have it all - a laptop should be a laptop and anything an air will be too slow for so will any other laptop. 

Only reason I went to mac was because I was having overheating issues with my linux box and I just had to get work done.


----------



## carverman

andrewf said:


> I recently had to purchase a PC to replace my parents' recently dead all-in-one. I*t came with Windows 8--what a trainwreck that OS is.*


I'm in the process of converting my Windows 7 Ultimate (pirated copy that came with the computer that I bought on Kijji) to Windows 7 Home premium licensed copy.
I'm tired of the constant nagging that I may have a illegal copy..yes I knew that 4 months ago,, but I was waiting for my Norton Internet protection to expire this past
weekend, now I'm running on AVG and going to my own copy of Windows 7.

I ordered my 64 bit OS copy from Tiger direct on the weekend and got it delivered today. I noticed that they had Windows 8 on for $79.99..so I guess 
they are trying to get rid of their W8 stock? 

What did you find different about Windows 8 that can be considered a trainwreck OS?


----------



## none

carver, so a dual-boot ubuntu install. It's great.


----------



## andrewf

Behold Windows 8. I knew it was bad, just not how bad. It's a usability disaster, and no sane major company will migrate from XP/Windows 7 to Windows 8. It is unusable for serious productivity tasks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4YFfrfdKlQ


----------



## carverman

Well..maybe it does run faster than W7, but after seeing the youtube demo, I can see why some online stores are starting to flog it to get rid of it.
Another Vista offering with a weird UI. However, there is some hope for those that have bought computers with it....for $4.99 apparently, you can
get an app to download that will emulater W7. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSsZDc7ivXI

MS always comes up with new products to keep the cash flowing..but not all of them are a hit with PC users.


----------



## martinv

Just replaced my old Vista PC with a new one yesterday (starting to have hard drive problems).
I thought that since Windows 8 is the latest version, I should go that route.
Perhaps, I should have gone for Windows 7.
You get a start page that has "tiles" that tell you that some hockey player is brushing his teeth or going back to rehab or some other useless "news"!
Try to turn the thing off, there is nothing! Finally Googled it on my laptop and found that they don't really even want you to turn it off, just go to sleep.
I have used PC's for years and this has to be the most confusing OS they have come up with. Maybe it is just me. I will keep trying.
And where is Google, all they give me is Mr. Bing and Internet Explorer. Give me simplicity, I am not looking to start a database for a million customers.
Just email, the internet and let me download a few programs like Studio Tax etc.


----------



## carverman

Ok, so I did a *custom install* today from Windows 7 Ultimate (an unlicensed version) to a licensed Window 7 Home Premium.
Now it seems to be stuck during the s/w restart (from the start button) waiting for me to select either.... the new version or the old version.

I deleted all the Windows.old files and did another s/w restart and it's still the same.
What am I missing..(did I say hate microsoft..btw)


----------



## carverman

rikk said:


> This might help ... http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-vista/what-happened-to-the-boot-ini-file ... if not maybe google e.g. "win 7 dual boot modify" and the like and make modifications such that the OS you want boots ... I realize you can't get there from here since your PC won't boot but if the dual boot is the problem you may be able to google a solution ...


Thanks Rikk. My PC will boot ok, but it stops at the Windows Boot Manager first. I don't think it is Bios, but there it sits until I hit return on the highlighted Windows 7 "boot select" (which is the Windows 7 Home Premium), that I bought recently with a licence from MS.

Underneath it is another Windows 7 (old version) that I can select, and have it come up with the OLD unlicenced version, which is Windows Ultimate, that came with my computer I bought used on Kijji. The guy that sold it to me, loaded it with a copy of his , but never gave me the key that I could send to MS.

After several phone calls and emails, he didn't answer me, so I finally gave up.

His version worked ok for 30 days, then started to nag me with a pop up window at startup or during the day/night where it told me I was running an unlicenced copy of Windows 7 Ultimate ..

and..to either supply them with theproper key for it..or buy an official version online for $299!

Well that's MS for you! No way was I going to give Bill Gates (multi-billionaire) another extra $200 of my pension money...so I bought a licenced version of Home premium for $99 + taxes from Tiger Direct.

I got caught this time, buying a used computer, but so far it's only cost me $250..($150 for the computer on Kijji and $113 for the official licenced s/w
from Bill Gates.


----------



## carverman

Logged in as Adminstrator, went into System Startup, Advanced, System properties..I see two Windows 7, and it shows the first one as Windows 7 and the
second one as Windows 7. How stupid of them to mark each one just as Windows 7...one should have a new attribute and the other one old.
I did the windows update download and then did the s/w restart...same thing..comes up with the boot manager and you have to select the new version
by hitting return, then it comes up in Home Premium.

Still looking for a way to get around the boot ini display pause. I can set the timer on the display in advanced..maybe I'll try that.


----------



## none

I would recommend doing a clean install.


----------



## rikk

none said:


> I would recommend doing a clean install.


To a clean(ed) disk else same thing will happen ... dual boot ... maybe the perfect time (installing new OS) for an SSD for your OS ... I use the OCZ Vertex 120G on my PC/laptop. My PCs a SATA 3 interface ... pretty fast ... my son uses 2 SSDs striped ... really frikken fast. Not that it really matters that much but when I power up my wife's HD PC I'm thinking oh crap ... the HDs' toast ... oh, no ... I hear the disk clicking. My PCs I usually leave in sleep mode when not in use so the boot time saved with the SSD isn't that useful. Have fun solving your PC problem ... seriously, it's a lotta fun I find, and you learn a few new things.


----------



## carverman

none said:


> I would recommend doing a clean install.


Yes, I should have known better. MS windows is full of funny OS ideosync-crash-sies, that present a challenging environment
to troubleshoot. What I was trying to do was minimize the amount of initialization to the hard disk and tried the replacement
option..but it wouldn't do it because the previous version was Ultimate and mine is Home premium, so I had to go the custom
install route..and download most of the applications, that I couldn't save... again. I think now they have a direct replacement
option available, which may save all your applications..but the older OS still requires lots of downloading again.


----------



## carverman

rikk said:


> To a clean(ed) disk else same thing will happen ... dual boot ... maybe the perfect time (installing new OS) for an SSD for your OS ... I use the OCZ Vertex 120G on my PC/laptop. My PCs a SATA 3 interface ... pretty fast ... my son uses 2 SSDs striped ... really frikken fast. Not that it really matters that much but when I power up my wife's HD PC I'm thinking oh crap ... the HDs' toast ... oh, no ... I hear the disk clicking. My PCs I usually leave in sleep mode when not in use so the boot time saved with the SSD isn't that useful. Have fun solving your PC problem ... seriously, it's a lotta fun I find, and you learn a few new things.


My disk is SATA as well and normally it's fast. However, I find that MS Windows INIT is very slow..lots of black screens before you see the blue sky windows screen. Very ancient interface on a kludged OS. 

The MS site you suggested above: the instructions were for Vista..mine look a bit different, so I couldn't really use them..but at least it pointed me in the right direction. I had to login in as ADMIN and go to SYSTEM STARTUP, then Advanced, then select the default operating system from the selection table.

I also had to set the display timer from 30 secs down to 1 sec, and that seemed to help, now it's not sitting for a long time at the 
Windows Boot Manager waiting for me to tap a return key...ridiculous.

This init interface leaves a bit to be desired, IMO...but at least it's working now and selecting the new windows. I deleted all the saved files from the old windows.
Then I activated my new version and "Bill Gates" replied to me with his MS video stamp" that it's a "Genuine MS product"..hurrah!
Makes me feel so much better that I'm not running counterfeit OS so that I can get all the updates online.


----------



## rikk

carverman said:


> The MS site you suggested above: the instructions were for Vista ...
> QUOTE]
> 
> Oops ... apologies ... maybe go add this to the "things that people do in public (forums) that drive you crazy" thread :cower:


----------



## Beaver101

Lol ... actually alot of take-away information here for the non-tech savvy person (aka ain't touching it if not broken) :biggrin:


----------



## carverman

rikk said:


> carverman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The MS site you suggested above: the instructions were for Vista ...
> QUOTE]
> 
> Oops ... apologies ... maybe go add this to the "things that people do in public (forums) that drive you crazy" thread :cower:
> 
> 
> 
> Au Contrare, my forum friend. Your suggestion just pointed me in the the right direction..so I did a bit more looking and found where the MS OS secrets are buried. :biggrin:
> I've been a systems troubleshooter for many years at Nortel..on those big computerized telephone switching systems, so it helps to have that kind of background when trying to figure out how to go about it on these lowly PCs.
> 
> The secret to a good solution is to identify the nature of the symptom and it's causes.
Click to expand...


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> Lol ... actually alot of take-away information here for the non-tech savvy person (aka ain't touching it if not broken) :biggrin:


Beav..sometimes you have to roll up yer sleeves and get yer hands dirty. I've been inside my two PCs several times. I keep an old 32 bit as a backup now to my used 64 bit that I bought off a Kijji hardware scrounger.

Learned my lesson from my first one, that decided to pack up on Christmas day just when I was ready to Skype with my daughter and grandkids.

Last year I had internet (Wind data stick) dropouts, so I wasn't sure if it was the USB ports on my ole HP or what. Called Wind a few times and they were totally useless in helping me determine what the problem was.

They just kept giving me trouble ticket numbers but nobody followed up with me.
Most of the ISPs are like that...they don't seem to be able to troubleshoot network problems when it could be located around your home PC.

So..ya gotta dig and ask lots of questions from a good technical pool of experts out there..or teksavvy users.


----------



## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Beav..sometimes you have to roll up yer sleeves and get yer hands dirty. I've been inside my two PCs several times. I keep an old 32 bit as a backup now to my used 64 bit that I bought off a Kijji hardware scrounger.
> 
> Learned my lesson from my first one, that decided to pack up on Christmas day just when I was ready to Skype with my daughter and grandkids.
> 
> Last year I had internet (Wind data stick) dropouts, so I wasn't sure if it was the USB ports on my ole HP or what. Called Wind a few times and they were totally useless in helping me determine what the problem was.
> 
> They just kept giving me trouble ticket numbers but nobody followed up with me.
> Most of the ISPs are like that...they don't seem to be able to troubleshoot network problems when it could be located around your home PC.
> 
> So..ya gotta dig and ask lots of questions from a good technical pool of experts out there..or teksavvy users.


 ... I agree I can learn alot more here than going to the original source / vendor. Long story short, bought my laptop from a major business supplies retailer here in Canada along with an extended warranty - the DVD reader stopped functioning just before the warranty expired so took it in for service. The "expert" service depot there held my laptop hostage for a month and they still could not find out what was wrong with the DVD reader other than it was just not functioning. They also proceeded to tell me that my MoBo was going to be shot next and wanted me to replace the entire laptop with a buy-out rather than fixing the DVD or replacing it (after they agreed verbally that they could fix it) ... if the MoBO was indeed going to die, then how come it is still functioning as I type this message after 3 years that the DVD died? They're the "tech experts". Lessons learned for me - 1. never buy an extended warranty on electronics no matter how convincing the salesperson is, 2. can't trust the so-called experts or tech department of the vendor (in your example, WIND). 3. until the device is absolutely, completely dead will then I replace it. After that occurence, I bought myself a Laptop for Dummies guide as a reference to trouble-shoot, problem with this is the manual becomes outdated.


----------



## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... I agree I can learn alot more here than going to the original source / vendor. Long story short, bought my laptop from a major business supplies retailer here in Canada along with an extended warranty - the DVD reader stopped functioning just before the warranty expired so took it in for service. The "expert" service depot there held my laptop hostage for a month and they still could not find out what was wrong with the DVD reader other than it was just not functioning.


That's crazy! The service depot holding your laptop "hostage" for a month. I would be furious and taking my laptop to another service place within a week!
There is diagnostics you can buy and run to determine what the problem is with the mobo..if that is what the problem is...provided of course that the Mobo is functioning at all, and you can either put a dvd/cd into it..
or download the diagnostic from the internet.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-run-a-diagnostics-program-on-your-laptop.html



> They also proceeded to tell me that my MoBo was going to be shot next and wanted me to replace the entire laptop with a buy-out rather than fixing the DVD or replacing it (after they agreed verbally that they could fix it) ... if the MoBO was indeed going to die, then how come it is still functioning as I type this message after 3 years that the DVD died? They're the "tech experts". Lessons learned for me - 1. never buy an extended warranty on electronics no matter how convincing the salesperson is, 2. can't trust the so-called experts or tech department of the vendor (in your example, WIND). 3. until the device is absolutely, completely dead will then I replace it. After that occurence, I bought myself a Laptop for Dummies guide as a reference to trouble-shoot, problem with this is the manual becomes outdated.


Good for you buying a troubleshooting guide. Most DVD readers can be replaced. You just need to know how to take the laptop apart to remove and replace them. 
http://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Internal-Burner-Reader-Thinkpad/dp/B003CODF62

There are literally a ton of h/w diagnostic cards out there that can plug into your laptop to tell you what the problem is. Some have LED readouts to give you a code as to what the hardware problem is. However, if the h/w fault is truly in the MoBo, it is next to impossible to fix it as the MoBo is complex in the way it is manufactured with surface mount component technology, so it can be a unrepairable problem too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motherboard...herboard_Diagnostic_Cards&hash=item589d2cf52f
lots of them available and quite cheap..usually they come with an error code manual or one that you can download from
the diagnostic card manufacturer's site.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=diagnostic+laptops


I never buy extended warranties. Most of the time, they are useless when you really need them, unless it is an outright replacement warranty. Your laptop or desktop will be held hostage for weeks by their repair depot and you wont have a computer to work with.


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## SpIcEz

DVD what?  I cant remember the last time I used a DVD reader. I have 3 computers (I work in a technical field) all 3 don't have a DVD reader (more room for hard drives).

Actually a few weeks ago I bought a game, got home opened the box and then wondered, " What am I going to do with this?" (looking at the dvd). Luckily as with almost everything these days, I could install the game from the publishers website.


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## Spudd

My year-old laptop is starting to act up and I'm debating whether to spend $180 on an extended warranty that will let me get it fixed anytime within the next year for free, or just pony up for a new laptop. Any opinions?


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## carverman

Spudd said:


> My year-old laptop is starting to act up and I'm debating whether to spend $180 on an extended warranty that will let me get it fixed anytime within the next year for free, or just pony up for a new laptop. Any opinions?


"act up" is a bit of a vague description of your laptops symptom(s) Spudd. Can you elaborate a bit?

How does it act up?
When does it act up?
What are you doing when it acts up?
Are you running it on battery and the battery is charged in good condition?

Have you run routine maintenance on it periodically? All computers need routine maintenance to defragment the disk for faster access.

http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/windows-7-system-maintenance-tools/

Do you run a memory diagnostic on the RAM to make sure it is operational?
Do you periodically clean out all the temporary internet files that sit around and clog up disk space?


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## Spudd

It's hardware issues. Sometimes when I start it up, it says I have the wrong power adapter and I need to press F1 to continue (although I have the right power adapter). It won't charge the battery unless I hold the cord at a certain angle. And this weekend, the entire screen turned to static (like TV static) for no apparent reason, and the only way I could recover was to take out the power cord and battery and reboot it.


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## carverman

Spudd said:


> It's hardware issues. Sometimes when I start it up, it says I have the wrong power adapter and I need to press F1 to continue (although I have the right power adapter). It won't charge the battery unless I hold the cord at a certain angle. And this weekend, the entire screen turned to static (like TV static) for no apparent reason, and the only way I could recover was to take out the power cord and battery and reboot it.


So it appears you have power supply issues. Holding the cord at a certain angle could mean that a wire between the power adapter and laptop is either broken inside the insulation (due to a lot of bending at a certain point), or a loose connection at the plug..more than likely it is right at the plug itself.

Not having proper video display is yet another symptom of a power adapter issue.

Can you find another power adapter for it?


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> That's crazy! The service depot holding your laptop "hostage" for a month. I would be furious and taking my laptop to another service place within a week!
> There is diagnostics you can buy and run to determine what the problem is with the mobo..if that is what the problem is...provided of course that the Mobo is functioning at all, and you can either put a dvd/cd into it..
> or download the diagnostic from the internet. ....
> 
> I never buy extended warranties. Most of the time, they are useless when you really need them, unless it is an outright replacement warranty. Your laptop or desktop will be held hostage for weeks by their repair depot and you wont have a computer to work with.


 ... yes, as crazy as it was, the very experience in dealing with their "tech depot" (which is offsite from their stores) was not only a test of patience, extremely frustrating ... it took them about 2 weeks to give me the first call on a status of repair (and that's only AFTER I called them first), then they told me that the DVD-RW was indeed not working but repairable. Well, great then please fix it. Then after 2 days, they called back and said "no, it cannot be fixed as we ran all the diagnostics on it and in doing that we think your MoBo is going to go". Huh? Being the "tech experts", wouldn't they have ran the diagnostics first and if the Mo-Bo was going bad, then they should have told me upfront BEFORE telling that the DVD-RW wasn't fixable. 

Then they proceeded to read the clauses of "their" extended warranty that they have the option to "buy-out" (ie offer me a couple of hundreds) my laptop instead of fixing it. I'm not sure why they were so eager to buy my laptop that's already 2 years old other than it would be cheaper to fix the DVD-RW. However, I don't want to replace my entire laptop and go through the re- shopping / re-loading / re-learning hassles so I made a suggestion to them to provide me with an external DVD-RW instead of fixing my existing internal one and that I'll take my chance with the Mo-Bo. Their Head-Tech-Expert "refused' this proposal ... so inbetween the back and forths complaints right up to Head-Office's customer-service (short of reaching the CEO), they held onto my laptop for a month. In short, what a <bleeping> hassle in dealing with this retailer so NEVER EVER AGAIN in my lifetime will I buy any electronics from them!

PS: Thanks for all the informational / diagnostic links.


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## humble_pie

i don't know why i'm daring to poke my nose in here, i'm the last thing from a knowledgeable person, all i want is a communication device that also has excel & word, hopefully one that is never going to talk back about its problems. I wish!

i have a dell laptop that's getting on for 2 years & somehow when i bought it i also purchased extended warranty support for 4 years for something like a total of $160. That's 40 tiny dollars per annum. No money at all, really.

this leads to a group in india called premium support. There is a dedicated canada desk. They are having such a run of excellence it's unbelievable. They can connect to my laptop easily & they nearly always volunteer to do this. The session becomes a private lesson, right at my desk, whenever i might need, only a phone call away. No taking machine to shop, no waiting for geek service to arrive at the front door. Every question has been answered, every problem has been solved. In the event i might actually need hardware support, ie a new part, dell apparently would send somebody to my location, although this hasn't happened yet.

i love the cultural differences, hearing about life in bangalore. The city is huge, perhaps bigger than toronto, for example. There is no decent public transit. Traffic is stuck in gridlock night & day. As a result, dell ferries its staff to & from their homes by taxi.

i've learned that friday evening in canada is a time when dell india is definitely not busy (i guess most canadians are out shopping or else in the bars.) On friday nights, dell can spend all the time in the world teaching customers anything they want to know. Last friday, i learned 3 very useful things from 2 unbelievably appealing, interesting, fun guys.

a few years ago, with a previous dell laptop, a previous service contract, i even seemed to have acquired my own personal technician in faraway india. His name was Balasubramanian. His last name was just as long but i'm not going to post it. He was known as Bala for short. He was a senior technician & frankly a genius.

one day i wanted to reach him but the dell bureaucracy was a bit resistant. The agent i did reach said There are 2000 dell employees on 2 different campuses here in bangalore india, he could not be expected to be able to find Balasubramanian P. Oh, but your supervisor probably could, i said.

next day my phone rang. It was Bala in faraway india. You called? he asked. I'm here to help.


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## andrewf

humble_pie said:


> Last friday, i learned 3 very useful things from 2 unbelievably appealing, interesting, fun guys.
> 
> [...]
> 
> next day my phone rang. It was Bala in faraway india. You called? he asked. I'm here to help.


$40 a year and you save on all those local chat lines at 2.95 a minute...

I kid! I kid!


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## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> Perhaps instead of putting words in others' mouth, speak for yourself. Strawmen are fun to beat down, but the act benefits no one.



just curious: why are u stalking & harassing? having a bad monday?


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## andrewf

I'm not stalking, HP. The post you wrote in the other thread was deliberately provocative. Here I was just joking as I found it surprising and funny to have such a developed relationship with tech support half a world away.


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## Toronto.gal

humble_pie said:


> 1. i'm the last thing from a knowledgeable person....
> 2. The city is huge, perhaps bigger than toronto, for example
> 3. They are having such a run of excellence it's unbelievable.


*1.* But no way José that you're worse than I am, but luckily, never had any problems, even when we have had computers/laptops for years before replacing them, and mostly just to modernize. 

*2.* You think?  Indeed, in population & KM².

*3. * Bangalore is an IT hub, with a high # of engineering colleges, and with the highest # of software companies in the country, hence it has been referred to as the Silicon Valley of India. 

Interesting articles from 2001 & 2012:

http://www.itworld.com/ITW_2-2-01_bangalore
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/tech/bangalore-india-internet-access


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## humble_pie

andrewf said:


> I'm not stalking, HP. The post you wrote in the other thread was deliberately provocative. Here I was just joking as I found it surprising and funny to have such a developed relationship with tech support half a world away.


the post in the other thread was not provocative in the least.

on the contrary it was a model of equal, impartial & even-handed fun-poking at all parties in the debate including myself.

portia herself did not do any better


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> . Then after 2 days, they called back and said "no, it cannot be fixed as we ran all the diagnostics on it and in doing that we think your MoBo is going to go". Huh? *Being the "tech experts", wouldn't they have ran the diagnostics first* and if the Mo-Bo was going bad, then they should have told me upfront BEFORE telling that the DVD-RW wasn't fixable.


Yup...but sometimes they do things backwards. :rolleyes2:



> Then they proceeded to read the clauses of "their" extended warranty that they have the option to "buy-out" (ie offer me a couple of hundreds) my laptop instead of fixing it.


Some times these extended warranties are more hassle than they are worth, even with the "buyout clause". The store you buy the item from,
will not take your word that the computer is "hosed!", so they send it off to their repair depot (which may be a contractor for them) and it
*sits on the shelf for a few days..or weeks, until they get a "roundtoit".*...one of those round thingys that finally tells them to get cracking
on it. :biggrin:



> I'm not sure why they were so eager to buy my laptop that's already 2 years old other than it would be cheaper to fix the DVD-RW. However, I don't want to replace my entire laptop and go through the re- shopping / re-loading / re-learning hassles so I made a suggestion to them to provide me with an external DVD-RW instead of fixing my existing internal one and that I'll take my chance with the Mo-Bo.


Most of the big box stores (including Staples) are in business to sell stuff, and if they can sell you an extended warranty, it's more profit in it for them.
Collecting on the extended warranty can be quite frustrating, because they won't take your word for it..they have to have an expert opinion
on what the problem is and then attempt to fix it, before they decide to "buy you out:...which is just a credit towards another new unit.



> In short, what a <bleeping> hassle in dealing with this retailer so NEVER EVER AGAIN in my lifetime will I buy any electronics from them!


Most of these retail outlets are all the same..they don't have their own service staff to look at it, so your unit is sent back to a central
depot (along with thousands of others) to be tested to determine if it's fixable or not. Most of these central service depots are
contracted to the big box stores, so they don't really deal with the customer, only the store that sends it in.


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