# Why are people getting really offensive when talking about investment ?



## 307169 (May 24, 2015)

I personally do not understand why are people feel offended when they are talking about investment. A good investment is an investment that have above average return and low volatility for an extended period of time, *where the particular tool(s) used are irrelevant*. Why would members resort to personal attack on something so simple??


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

As in for example? I don't recall many over-the-top discussions.

Discussions can get a bit heated when someone suggests something totally unsuitable for an individual in a specific situation but that is the value of discussion.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Johnny_kar said:


> I personally do not understand why are people feel offended when they are talking about investment. A good investment is an investment that have above average return and low volatility for an extended period of time, *where the particular tool(s) used are irrelevant*. Why would members resort to personal attack on something so simple??


Need an example, but some tools are stupid.

For example throwing darts at a list of stocks isn't a very good system (IMO)


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

The only real personal attack I can recall is from Rich Day to me when I dissed his penny stocks.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Some people have fixed ideas on what works and what doesn't because they know what doesn't work for them. If they knew more about successful investors they would know that every one has an approach that fits their beliefs and personality and no two are alike. I have even heard of successful traders who use Elliot waves and astrology. Today nothing would surprise me.
I happen to like the technical approach and it works for me but I know some good investors like Warren Buffet don't think it works at all, even though they must have heard of Jesse Livermore, Jack Dreyfus, Sir John Templeton, the Turtle Traders and others who made millions as technical traders.
But, some people get very agitated and upset when you challenge their world view. It's human nature.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Need an example, but some tools are stupid.
> 
> For example throwing darts at a list of stocks isn't a very good system (IMO)


Not a real good example, I have seen experiments where they had a monkey throw darts at the stock listings out of a newspaper compared to the recommendations of a stock broker or other expert. The monkey usually won. Reason being that a random selection of stocks has a better chance of gaining over the short term, than market favorites that have already gone up a bunch.








Any Monkey Can Beat The Market


Give a monkey enough darts and they’ll beat the market. So says a draft article by Research Affiliates highlighting the simulated results of 100 monkeys throwing darts at the stock pages in a newspaper. The average monkey outperformed the index by an average of 1.7 percent per year since 1964. [...]




www.forbes.com


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Too many participants can get caught up on winning an argument!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Some people tend to overthink their investment strategies and transpose this onto to others regardless of the situation.

Depending on age, experience, and willingness to manage their investments, KISS may be the right approach for many people. Then it comes down to the appropriate fund, track record, allocation, and MER.

Not to mention different demographics, different risk tolerances, different personal and financial situations.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

kcowan said:


> Too many participants can get caught up on winning an argument!


Probably the key contributor of all of which many of us are guilty of.

There is no single investing strategy that works best for any one individual, never mind random individuals with different personalities and life situations.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Not a real good example, I have seen experiments where they had a monkey throw darts at the stock listings out of a newspaper compared to the recommendations of a stock broker or other expert. The monkey usually won. Reason being that a random selection of stocks has a better chance of gaining over the short term, than market favorites that have already gone up a bunch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually that's part of the reason I think it's a good example.
It's a strategy that sometimes (even often) gives better results.

But it's a ridiculous strategy. 
I wouldn't invest in the "monkey dartboard portfolio", unless I was doing so as a joke.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

We do have a few members around here who appear convinced to varying degrees that because something worked for them, everyone else can and should be doing the same. That usually leads to heated arguments about not everyone having the same opportunities, skills, risk tolerance, etc.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

If I knew of a strategy that beat the odds 98 times out of 100 I would try it no matter how screwy. I would sooner invest with a dart throwing monkey than some so called experts.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

off.by.10 said:


> We do have a few members around here who appear convinced to varying degrees that because something worked for them, everyone else can and should be doing the same. That usually leads to heated arguments about not everyone having the same opportunities, skills, risk tolerance, etc.


Not to mention differences in timing-buy, sell, and hold. 

It sometimes reminds me of casino stories. We typically only hear about times when gamblers make a score, not when their results are not so great.

Our accountant once told us that she had several clients who were day traders. They always told her about the gains however the bottom line on their tax respective tax returns painted a different, more realistic picture.


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## Joe Black (Aug 3, 2015)

I can't recall seeing personal attacks on investment discussions. Political discussions, yes,that's almost inevitable.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

There is someone on this board who seems personally insulted when I criticize famous personalities. He has said I am viciously attacking... I think it's pretty funny.

We should all be critical of things we hear through the pop culture media. The investment world is full of many false prophets and fake gurus, and they all have to be questioned. This game requires critical thinking.

It's very foolish to just believe in people because they've written slick books, or have a following. For example Robert Kiyosaki, celebrated by many (author of Rich Dad Poor Dad) is more of a charlatan and con man, even running a series of super sketchy real estate seminars where he rips off his clientele. 

It's a bad sign if you develop a personal love or attachment to some kind of personality or guru.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> It's a bad sign if you develop a personal love or attachment to some kind of personality or guru.


 .. not necessarily a "bad" sign (to the worshipper) but definitely a "sign" that the worshipper would relate to. I.e. likes attract likes.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Money, politics, religion, and probably a lot of other topics.

When people have made up their minds, they don't want to be told they are wrong and will dig-in harder.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

If popular personalities were much better than randomness, they would not be writing 'for their supper'. They'd be filthy rich and on to other things.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> If popular personalities were much better than randomness, they would not be writing 'for their supper'. They'd be filthy rich and on to other things.


Believe it or not people like to talk about themselves and their achievements. There are some investment books by successful investors that are worth reading especially if their approach resonates with you. Warren Buffet gives credit to Benjamin Graham for teaching him how to invest, and Graham was a successful investor for years before he took up writing and teaching. He wrote Security Analysis the basic text for that profession in 1934. I don't know if Buffet ever wrote a book but he helped revise The Intelligent Investor for Graham and wrote a lot of annual reports for Berkshire. I could give many examples of investors turned author.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I will answer your question but first, a story.



Johnny_kar said:


> A good investment is an investment that have above average return and low volatility for an extended period of time, *where the particular tool(s) used are irrelevant*.


I don't share this premise of a good investment.

In 2016, I mentioned buying Tesla. Suffice to say, there were some pretty obnoxious comments. One of the obnoxious private messages I received was titled, "Hey, s* for brains." The forum response is all here for posterity.

That first tranche more than doubled in price over the next 18 months. At that point frequent, negative, coverage shifted to constant, relentless, full on smear, coverage. Bob Lutz regularly announced on CNBC that Tesla was "Dead. They just don't know it, yet." One piece mentioned on CNBC indicated Tesla's accounts were frozen and employees couldn't cash company checks. It was wild.

By Q2 of 2019, the price came down to a point not much above what I paid in 2016. Essentially all of my gains were gone.

At one point, CNBC announced Tesla was way off on their production numbers. A Reddit group I hang out on was posting pics and video of trailers full of cars streaming out of Fremont at a record pace.

So, I bought the hell out of a second tranche. Yeah, I was wildly bullish.

I also picked up a small tranche in Q3, 2020 that doubled my money but that turned out to be a lousy return, relative to the first two tranches.

At this point, I don't own a single share of Tesla. Every share was sold in January of this year at well over $800. It ended up peaking around $900. It's all documented on this, and one other forum.

There have only been two companies I've been absolutely sure of in my 38 year investing trajectory and Tesla is one of them.

Now, to the point.

Tesla has been a wild ride. It doesn't come close to meeting your definition of a good investment. A lot of people were passionate and convicted in their hatred of Tesla. And yet, Tesla boosted our net worth by 50%. I would say that makes it a good investment, although it wasn't always certain to survive so there was definitely a speculative component to my Tesla ownership. This gain, after relentlessly stumping up a pretty solid retirement with decades with hard work, frugal living, relentless saving, and endless reading/research/charting.

Here are some random points:


I consider "trusting your gut" to be a form of ignorance. And yet, this characteristic seems to be common to the most "direct" posters.
Nobody knows exactly what is going to happen tomorrow. When someone states they do, they are doing us a favour by revealing their ignorance.
I'm willing to bet less than five members of this site have outperformed the S&P 500 over the last 10 years and, further, the ones who have aren't the ones flowing hubris into their keyboards. Think about that. A stay at home Mom who bought VFV in 2001, never got a quote or read a financial column, would be either the most successful investor here, or nearly the most.
This forum probably tracks the media fairly closely, so it is good practice for disregarding obnoxious opinions.
Opinions on what to buy have extreme low value but information on the best rates, institution with the best service, upcoming IPOs, etc. has tremendous value.
The disinformation can be toxic but, oddly, even the disinformation can be enlightening on occasion.
Nobody got rich following the herd. In that sense, following any investment group, including this one, is a good way to learn what not to do.
Investing is an individual pursuit. You need to learn to think for yourself. You need to learn to filter.
I had 30 years of investing experience when I signed up at CMF but I still learned quite a bit from this web site. I am grateful for that.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Believe it or not people like to talk about themselves and their achievements. There are some investment books by successful investors that are worth reading especially if their approach resonates with you. Warren Buffet gives credit to Benjamin Graham for teaching him how to invest, and Graham was a successful investor for years before he took up writing and teaching. He wrote Security Analysis the basic text for that profession in 1934. I don't know if Buffet ever wrote a book but he helped revise The Intelligent Investor for Graham and wrote a lot of annual reports for Berkshire. I could give many examples of investors turned author.


Those were writings for reasons other than being a shill writing for his supper. They gave of themselves to inform and educate. Few current personalities are doing anything for altruistic reasons. They are in it to make money off someone, usually the consumer. I don't look favourably on sales folk and I don't look favourably on braggarts either...anywhere.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Those were writings for reasons other than being a shill writing for his supper. They gave of themselves to inform and educate. Few current personalities are doing anything for altruistic reasons. They are in it to make money off someone, usually the consumer. I don't look favourably on sales folk and I don't look favourably on braggarts either...anywhere.


You have to use some judgement, I like reading books by investors telling how they made their money even when their approach has no appeal to me. Then sometimes you find one that is on the same wavelength so to speak and learn some valuable new ideas or at least, have your own ideas confirmed.


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