# What will you do if your spouse dies first?



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

No one is in any hurry to die but we retirees do have to acknowledge that assuming we stay together as a couple, one of us is likely to go before the other. That is simply a fact of life and as such, is something that we should give some thought to. In my own case, neither my spouse nor I can see ourselves staying in our current home alone. The amount of work involved to run and maintain a home with two people sharing the load is enough as we get older and imagining doing it all alone doesn't strike either of us as something we would want to or perhaps even be capable of doing alone. So that leads to the question of what then would you do if you were left alone? For those who are already single retirees, a similar question arises of what will you do when you are no longer able or willing to maintain your own home. The traditional answer of course is a Retirement Home.

But not everyone wants to go and live in a Retirement Home when they are still quite physically capable etc. but just not willing to deal with all the factors involved in continuing to live independently. For example, my spouse is an avid gardener but while very happy to enjoy looking at our garden, I have no desire whatsoever to maintain that garden if I were left on my own. My spouse has no desire to have to clean the rain gutters or use our riding mower to do the lawn. You could hire people to do any of these things of course if you have enough money but even that is a hassle.These kind of factors alone is enough to tell me I would not want to stay in our current home alone. Yet at the same time, I would not want to sell up and then move into a Retirement Home. So what are the alternatives available in that case?

Sell up and move into a one bedroom apartment or condo would seem to be an alternative. But many of the other things my spouse does as part of sharing the load would still exist. So while it might remove some of the load it would still result in an increased load vs. when sharing the load. Not a great answer. So I've concluded that for me anyway, a fully 'serviced' apartment would be the best answer. Simple description here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serviced_apartment

I would want weekly cleaning and laundry service; all utilities including tv and internet service; restaurant on premises or very nearby; parking included; kitchenette, sitting area and bedroom; some common area for residents to socialize. Those would be more or less the minimum requirements. But finding such a place while possible is certainly not easy to do in most areas other than major cities. They also tend to be geared to business people on the company dime who perhaps need a place to live while on a longer term project etc. 

A fairly extensive Google search in fact produced very little. This was one of the few sites I could find and as you will see it covers only the GTA and is geared to business people on an extended stay. https://www.extendedstaytoronto.com/extendedstaysuites/ I could find nothing geared to retirees who wanted a serviced apartment alternative for continuing to live independently until no longer able to do so and outside a major city.

What I envision is a serviced apartment building that CATERS to seniors specifically but without providing the CARE services that a Retirement Home provides. A place for retirees who are still capable of independent living physically but just want to avoid some of the work load of maintaining an independent home. There are around 2 million people in Ontario between the ages of 65 and 85. Many of them will no doubt be singles not yet ready for a Retirement Home. I see a market that is not being catered for.

So what are your thoughts on all of this?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Neither my spouse or I would remain in our current home if one of us passes, and even as a couple, somewhere between 75 and 80, we will want out of our big house environment with all of its burdens. Locally, there are 3 options:

1) classic independent retirement home of 1-2 bedroom apartments, dining room, cleaning service, etc, with facilities like game rooms, theatre, pool. Some can be within walking distance of shopping but not all.

2) multi-family/high rise condo which gets rid of the maintenance problem but still has other issues, including garage/elevator inconveniences and lack of community. One can still contract for weekly cleaning service and even home delivery of groceries, meals, etc. Some of these are centrally located allowing for shopping, restaurants and in our area waterfront activities within a few blocks. A number of new high rises are going up downtown to cater to the empty nester crowd, though not necessarily senior only crowd.

3) senior gated communities based on 2 bedroom bungalows of perhaps 1000-1200 sq ft with a single car garage in a strata environment, often with a clubhouse. They are perfectly suited for a senior couple or single that does not want maintenance but wants a small patch of land to tinker in, the independence of an attached garage, etc. For the most part, a vehicle is still required to do the shopping but that is changing with ride sharing, home deliveries, etc.

I think if one of us was to go when about 80, 1) or 3) above would be best for the surviving single due to the availability of a sense of community and social interaction via the common facilities if one wants that. It will help keep an aging senior more engaged and alive than potentially slowly becoming a social recluse. It is what I would likely want, and I suspect so would my spouse. IF it were to happen sooner while we are in our early '70s, 2) is an option if we are still fairly active and want to engage in downtown waterfront options.

Ultimately, it is going to be situational depending on age and mobility at the time.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Keep moving forward as we always do and as we always have.

There is no answer for either of us at this time. It will depend on our health, possibly where our children happen to be living, and our preferences at that time. If I were to loose my spouse tomorrow I suspect I would pack up, put everything in storage, and travel internationally for a year. Then decide what to do next. Might not be the case in five years, or fifteen years.

Where we live we keep seeing lots of adverts for seniors geared living....condos, townhouses, villas being developed and marketed. I expect that there will be more and it will be the same across the country. 5 million or so people will be reaching retirement age in Canada over the next few years. Boomers are the golden generation with the most wealth. Savvy business people are keenly aware of this. I have no doubt that you will see more and more products, services, housing geared to them over the next few years.

Neither of us really know until it is time to cross that bridge.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> Ultimately, it is going to be situational depending on age and mobility at the time.


^^ This.

I'm still too far away, hopefully that continues , to truely consider the options but many I've seen have gone from their homes driectly to assisted living of some type. I do plan to stay in my house for as long as I can, even hire people to do work if I can't or don't want to anymore.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Over the last few years, I have been helping my parents work through this when my mother had a stroke and could no longer do much around the house, especially her massive garden. I have researched Almost EVERY option out sir on their behalf. 
Some options of the options that may meet your criteria:
There are many seniors communities in my city that you have have their independence with full services such as a common optional dining room, community activities/gathering areas. There were townhouse and apartment styles with garages. They just had a system that daily you ‘ring’ in just to let them know nothing happened to you over night. You coulalso have laundry, and cleaning services. The costs were very expensive , some up to $12k a month per couple. 

We looked down sizing smaller condo, or apartment, and just hiring out for laundry, cleaning, ect. That was the plan, but my dad wanted to stay in his house even after my mother had to go to a nursing home. 

Having a live in housekeeper/caregiver if you find the right one can be great, but my dad didn’t like the lost of privacy, but this was cheaper than moving into the full service senior communities. 

In the end, after looking at hundreds of options, my dad didn’t want to move as his friends all still live near him. We check in on him all the time, help him where we can, and outsource everything else from laundry, groceries, house maintenance, ect. He did this at about 83 when my mom had to goto the home. 

For me, no idea on what will will do as you said you can’t there from here. It will depend on what physical and mental condition we are in, where our kids are, and what has happened to the other spouse.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Neither my spouse or I would remain in our current home if one of us passes, and even as a couple, somewhere between 75 and 80, we will want out of our big house environment with all of its burdens. Locally, there are 3 options:
> 
> 1) classic independent retirement home of 1-2 bedroom apartments, dining room, cleaning service, etc, with facilities like game rooms, theatre, pool. Some can be within walking distance of shopping but not all.
> 
> ...


Your options 1 and 3 are basically what I am considering vs. your option 2. I do think your comment re social interaction and community is an important factor for people who would might otherwise become a 'social recluse' as you term it.

Being situational dependent goes without saying. In the OP I defined that as still being physically and mentally able. There is no need for a 'it depends' clause.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Keep moving forward as we always do and as we always have.
> 
> There is no answer for either of us at this time. It will depend on our health, possibly where our children happen to be living, and our preferences at that time. If I were to loose my spouse tomorrow I suspect I would pack up, put everything in storage, and travel internationally for a year. Then decide what to do next. Might not be the case in five years, or fifteen years.
> 
> ...


Again 'it depends' is not relevant. The presumption is you are alone but still physically and mentally capable. Your 'if it happened today' is the criteria. All I see you saying ian is that you have not considered what you would do. You're saying you would 'then decide what to do next.' That's fine, it's what we all would in fact do but part of the intent of this thread is to ask you to think about it now and contribute what you think NOW you would do then. Please don't write, 'neither of us really know until it is time to cross the bridge', that's a useless statement when you are being asked to say what you would do if it happened NOW.

There may be more and more options as you say, in the future, but what if you had to decide today? As I noted in the OP, there are currently 2 million people in Ontario between the ages of 65-85 and a good percentage of them are obviously having to make this kind of decision now. The baby boom is in fact almost exactly in the middle of those of it reaching age 65 now. If 'savvy business people are keenly aware of this' as you say, they should already have been addressing it, not 'over the next few years'. First year Boomers turn 74 this year. Demand is in fact growing faster than supply. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/seniors-canadian-census-aging-home-care-1.4097293


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Over the last few years, I have been helping my parents work through this when my mother had a stroke and could no longer do much around the house, especially her massive garden. I have researched Almost EVERY option out sir on their behalf.
> Some options of the options that may meet your criteria:
> There are many seniors communities in my city that you have have their independence with full services such as a common optional dining room, community activities/gathering areas. There were townhouse and apartment styles with garages. They just had a system that daily you ‘ring’ in just to let them know nothing happened to you over night. You coulalso have laundry, and cleaning services. The costs were very expensive , some up to $12k a month per couple.
> 
> ...


You have identified some of the same issues that I see Plugging Along. Staying in your own home if you can afford to outsource the things you no longer want or are able to do is fine IF you have the funds to do so. I think it is probable though that a significant number of people will not be able to afford that option just as they will not be able to afford a retirement home that costs $6k per person per month.

Again, I don't know why everyone wants to keep saying, 'it will depend at the time' in one way or another when you are being asked to consider what you would do NOW. Presume you have to decide now and having given it some thought, say what you would do. Is it that everyone posting just doesn't want to think about it now and is using 'it will depend' as a way to avoid doing so?

Presuming you are physically and mentally able and have to decide today what you will do, what would you do?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Again, I don't know why everyone wants to keep saying, 'it will depend at the time' in one way or another when you are being asked to consider what you would do NOW. Presume you have to decide now and having given it some thought, say what you would do. Is it that everyone posting just doesn't want to think about it now and is using 'it will depend' as a way to avoid doing so?
> 
> Presuming you are physically and mentally able and have to decide today what you will do, what would you do?


Members respond the way they wish to respond, not necessarily how you want them to respond. Respect the responses or don't ask the question at all.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OK, full disclosure. I am considering putting together a venture to open a 'retirement home'. I see an opportunity to do so just 'sitting on my doorstep' so to speak.

On the outskirts of the small Ontario town where I currently live, there is a motel which has never succeeded to make money in the 10 years or so I have lived here. It has a pool and a restaurant included and sits on a quite large piece of land. There is also a 3 bedroom apartment on top of one end of it for an owner/manager to live in. It has been bought and sold 3-4 times in 10 years and in the last iteration, it was part of the Howard Johnson chain. Failed again. The restaurant is quite large and has been leased out independently as is often the case in such situations. Again, it has failed each time and that has also happened 3-4 times in the last 10 years. The restaurant has in fact been closed more than it has been open.

Even though it is quite literally 'steps' not 'minutes' from a Highway 401 exit and is visible from the highway, it just doesn't work. I put it down to location. It just isn't a convenient distance from anywhere and passing traffic either goes a bit farther or shorter distance before stopping for the night. Proof of that old adage, 'location, location, location. 

We actually stayed in this motel when we came to look at buying a house here and so am familiar with the rooms. They are in fact quite large rooms and set up with a small sitting area and kitchenette. Large enough for a single person to live in. 

So it isn't hard to see how I view it as ideal for conversion to a Retirement MOTEL. I say Retirement Motel on purpose because the term 'Retirement Home' is in fact defined and regulated here in Ontario by the Retirement Homes Act of 2010. If I were to proceed, I may not want to have to comply with all that that Act may require. I believe it might not have to since one of the criteria that is used to define a 'Retirement Home' is that, "where the operator of the home makes at least two care services available (directly or indirectly) to residents." I do not plan on offering ANY care services (which are also defined in the Act) at all. 
https://www.rhra.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/RHRA_Plain_Language_Guide_May2019.pdf
That's why I am talking about those who are still physically and mentally independent but are looking for a place to live on their own with some services (but not care services) provided. 

Residents would have their own studio unit with covered parking (not a garage) at their doorstep, all utilities including tv and wifi; as well as the pool in summer (outdoor) the restaurant year round and a common area for socializing; weekly housekeeping and laundry. Rent by the month(no lease), no meals included. All of the units would be renovated with new kitchenette, new bathroom, new furniture, new paint and carpeting.

One of the downsides of the restaurant is that it is too big! It is basically impossible for it to have any kind of 'atmosphere'. This actually becomes a plus when looking at this idea though. It can easily be divided into two with one side remaining as the restaurant and the other half becoming a common area for residents. I see the restaurant as also being open to the public and hiring a 'chef' (not some greasy spoon short order cook) to offer a varied menu that will appeal to both residents and the public. A menu that has items that cater to the seniors as well as more upmarket choices to bring in the 'date night' couples from the surrounding area. I have specific thoughts on the restaurant but it is really a separate subject. Enough to say I do not expect to earn money in the restaurant from the residents alone but I do expect it to turn a profit on its own and believe I know how to make that happen.

Rent wise, I expect to offer the studios at a number that is affordable to a fair percentage of seniors, it will not be geared only to those with higher incomes as my research shows so many current newer offerings are. In other words, below the $3,000 per month average for a Senior's Residence in Ontario.

Cost wise, it could be purchased at what some might call 'a steal' given its history of failure as a motel. The property is still sound in most respects. A new metal roof was put on a few years ago and as far as I know plumbing and electrics are in decent shape. So it should really be a case of just doing the necessary renovations to update everything. 

Return wise, the aim would be a 10% return on investment. If I can't see that after running realistic numbers, it ain't worth doing.

So whattaya think? Go ahead and try to pick holes in it, I'm all ears. I'll be happy to provide more detail on any aspect if someone asks for it.

Forgot to mention there are 24 units.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Members respond the way they wish to respond, not necessarily how you want them to respond. Respect the responses or don't ask the question at all.


I realize that AltaRed, I'm just asking that members respond to the question AS ASKED.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> ... The traditional answer of course is a Retirement Home.
> 
> But not everyone wants to go and live in a Retirement Home when they are still quite physically capable etc. but just not willing to deal with all the factors involved in continuing to live independently.
> 
> ...


Dropping in here to clear up some misconceptions. You appear to be confusing a *retirement home* with a *long term care (or nursing)* home (Ontario). A retirement home is exactly what you are describing.

Google  'retirement homes in london ontario area' on the Google maps tab. You will find 20 places. Revera and Chartwell own several of them. 

Now, some may be paired with a separate LTCH facility (which btw you have no higher priority for if you eventually require more care, just because you live next door), and some may offer an assisted living floor or option. But there are definately retirement homes and they are for independent seniors, serviced as you describe. Some provide for your own kitchen/cooking, some offer a full service dining room.

You can also search the RHRA database. It lists 33 London-area homes. As it notes _"Retirement homes are privately owned. They rent private accommodation to seniors who can live with little or no outside help. Retirement homes do not provide 24-hour nursing care. You can expect to live much more independently here than you would in a long-term care home or supportive housing."_

For an apartment with a kitchenette, living rm, 2 bedr, washrm, parking space, and 3 nice meals/day in a very nice dining room, you should expect to pay at least $6k/mo. This seems (and is) expensive but must be compared with the ongoing cost of maintaining a house and the capital tied up in a house which is not available until you sell it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Dropping in here to clear up some misconceptions. You appear to be confusing a *retirement home* with a *long term care (or nursing)* home (Ontario). A retirement home is exactly what you are describing.
> 
> Google  'retirement homes in london ontario area' on the Google maps tab. You will find 20 places. Revera and Chartwell own several of them.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand the differing terms of retirement home, assisted living, nursing home, OnlyMyOpinion and agree it is important to know the difference. If you look at the Retirement Home Act of 2010 for Ontario though you will see that the government defines it differently in terms of care services being provided. I am talking about providing NO care services as defined by the Act. So in fact, what I am describing is NOT an actual Retirement Home according to the Act.

I am just using the term 'retirement home' as a loose term that most people are familiar with and as my last post discloses, I am looking at something that will cost far less than $6k per month (without meals or 2 bedrooms). What are your thoughts on my disclosure post?


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Would that be "The Rosebud Motel" Longtimeago?:encouragement:

You could hire Johnny, Roland and Stevie as back-up.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> Having a live in housekeeper/caregiver if you find the right one can be great, but my dad didn’t like the lost of privacy, but this was cheaper than moving into the full service senior communities.
> 
> In the end, after looking at hundreds of options, my dad didn’t want to move as his friends all still live near him. We check in on him all the time, help him where we can, and outsource everything else from laundry, groceries, house maintenance, ect. He did this at about 83 when my mom had to goto the home.


Thanks for sharing.

I'm starting to wonder what my parents are going to do as they get older. They strongly value their privacy but getting a helper or caregiver to drop into the house regularly might be a good solution and that seems to be what they are leaning to.

My grandmother did something similar back when she was alive. She continued to live alone in her house, very much enjoyed having her independence and living where she wanted to be. A caregiver came by frequently to help with chores at home and check up on her, cook meals at times. These days many stores will do grocery delivery and those services are going to keep improving with the aging boomer demographic.

That arrangement seemed to work well for grandma and I think it resulted in pretty good quality of life. Yes, having the stranger in her home was an annoyance, but I think it was probably worth it to keep the independence of living the way she wanted to live.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

As LTA asked, I think he was really directing his questions at us seniors currently retired, i.e. what we would do this very day, not a Gen-Xer or similar speculating about others or themselves in the future.

To satisfy his itch, I am young and healthy enough yet at 70 that I would go with my Option 2 if my spouse died today. I enjoy the vibrancy of downtown and the waterfront, restaurants, entertainment and would be in one of those condo high rises within a year. I think I'd also sign up for some of those 'unattached' travel adventures being marketed today at single empty nesters/seniors. Hopefully I have plenty of time to 'get and act old'.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Once my kids left home (that I raised alone) I decided to buy a small bungalow (1250 sq. ft.) in a fairly high end neighborhood. My goal was that it would provide the best option for living once I retired. Everything is on one floor, and the lot isn't too big at 50' x 100'. All brick.

After living here alone for 22 years and being retired for 14 years, I feel I have the maintenance and living in this house down to a science that will allow me to stay until I am infirm. After that - shoot me. I renovated the inside by myself - no contractors (except for countertops). Took about 6 years, so the house is in the same shape it was when brand new, so maintenance will be minor going forward. 

I still do all the maintenance on the home by myself, and the only thing I can see for the future would be to hire a service to cut the lawn and plow the snow. I still do those myself since they are a great form of free exercise if you're in shape.

I do notice that when I do a job now such as repairing some caulking up on my roof or cutting limbs up a tree, I try and think how long I will be able to do those things and what will I do when I'm 80 (in about 10 years) about those physical jobs, but it all comes down to hiring someone I suppose, which I am generally loath to do.

I can't imagine someone coming into my house and cooking a meal. Not a chance, I cook my own meals.

I have been experimenting with shopping for grocery products online, and I see that as an eventual end game. It works rather well actually, and the delivery is so fast.

I can walk to Farm Boy in 5 minutes, so I'm not too concerned if they eventually take away my license.

Lots to think about. This last 15-20 years (at best) will not end well.

ltr


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Zipper said:


> Would that be "The Rosebud Motel" Longtimeago?:encouragement:
> 
> You could hire Johnny, Roland and Stevie as back-up.


I haven't thought of a name yet Zipper but that would be one option I suppose. How about The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel? That was one that catered to long term senior residents. Did you see that movie?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder what my parents are going to do as they get older. They strongly value their privacy but getting a helper or caregiver to drop into the house regularly might be a good solution and that seems to be what they are leaning to.
> 
> ...


I don't do gardening, cooking, laundry or housecleaning james4beach. Those are no no's for me as an old school male of the species. I could see hiring someone to do those chores for me but at the same time, I know it is not easy to get 'good help' these days. I foresee it as an ongoing hassle of having to find, hire, then fire them repeatedly. I know for example that one older woman here in town who has a nice garden went through several part time gardeners before finding a good one and she pays him 4 figures a month to maintain her garden to her standards. A lawn cut is easy but a good gardener is not at all easy unfortunately. Nor do I even know what to tell the gardener to do as it is my wife that is the gardener in our family. I'm not talking about a few shrubs and putting in some annuals along the path to the front door you realize. There is almost year round work that is done every week. Say 10-12 hours per week even when the garden is as 'maintenance free' as my wife now has ours. Lawn mowing is another couple of hours a week on top of that, without edging it which I also have to do some of each year. I could eat out but laundry and housecleaning would require hiring a housekeeper to do that weekly. Again, having to find a good one and keep her.

The hassle factor is what is leaning me towards the Retirement Motel idea I've outlined as a good option for SOME seniors. There are numbers to suggest it is actually cheaper to move out than stay in your home and have to deal with these things yourself but it is not just the numbers it is the hassle.
https://business.financialpost.com/...-the-bottom-line-is-less-than-you-might-think


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> As LTA asked, I think he was really directing his questions at us seniors currently retired, i.e. what we would do this very day, not a Gen-Xer or similar speculating about others or themselves in the future.
> 
> To satisfy his itch, I am young and healthy enough yet at 70 that I would go with my Option 2 if my spouse died today. I enjoy the vibrancy of downtown and the waterfront, restaurants, entertainment and would be in one of those condo high rises within a year. I think I'd also sign up for some of those 'unattached' travel adventures being marketed today at single empty nesters/seniors. Hopefully I have plenty of time to 'get and act old'.


Sounds like a specific location AltaRed and that's fine. Otherwise it sounds like you are describing what I am suggesting. A place to live with NO caregiving at all but with other seniors to socialize with and some common areas to do so. You're just saying a condo you own rather than a unit you rent.

Re the 'unattached' travel, I shudder at the thought. I might consider meeting someone new but I don't want to be 'herded' in a group. I wouldn't do it now and can't see wanting to do it just because I had added a few years to my age. Group stuff is for people who are happy to travel in groups.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> Once my kids left home (that I raised alone) I decided to buy a small bungalow (1250 sq. ft.) in a fairly high end neighborhood. My goal was that it would provide the best option for living once I retired. Everything is on one floor, and the lot isn't too big at 50' x 100'. All brick.
> 
> After living here alone for 22 years and being retired for 14 years, I feel I have the maintenance and living in this house down to a science that will allow me to stay until I am infirm. After that - shoot me. I renovated the inside by myself - no contractors (except for countertops). Took about 6 years, so the house is in the same shape it was when brand new, so maintenance will be minor going forward.
> 
> ...


Our relatively small local Foodland will take telephone orders from seniors and deliver them to their homes like_to_retire. But I don't cook and don't want to. Make a cup of coffee or microwave something, OK, but that's it. Come to think of it, scratch the make a cup of coffee. My wife uses a proper espresso machine and I have no idea of how to work it. LOL


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

LTA
I don't think you will get any consistent input from this thread. Too much variety of responders!

I have had my father, brother, MIL and X-MIL go through the end of life experience. Your motel would not have worked for any of them. And it will not work for me or my spouse.

But good luck in your speculative endeavours.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Our relatively small local Foodland will take telephone orders from seniors and deliver them to their homes like_to_retire. But I don't cook and don't want to. Make a cup of coffee or microwave something, OK, but that's it. Come to think of it, scratch the make a cup of coffee. My wife uses a proper espresso machine and I have no idea of how to work it. LOL


My life wouldn't change much if spouse went tomorrow. We share cooking, kitchen cleanup, laundry and food shopping duties already in about equal terms give or take, and have a housecleaning service. The main change is I would not cook as much since I am less adept at the breadth of cooking than she is. Off-tangent, but I don't know of a single millenial/Gen-Xer male in our family who doesn't do at least some household duties, and in a few cases the majority of it. They are each well positioned to take care of themselves.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> You have identified some of the same issues that I see Plugging Along. Staying in your own home if you can afford to outsource the things you no longer want or are able to do is fine IF you have the funds to do so. I think it is probable though that a significant number of people will not be able to afford that option just as they will not be able to afford a retirement home that costs $6k per person per month.
> 
> Again, I don't know why everyone wants to keep saying, 'it will depend at the time' in one way or another when you are being asked to consider what you would do NOW. Presume you have to decide now and having given it some thought, say what you would do. Is it that everyone posting just doesn't want to think about it now and is using 'it will depend' as a way to avoid doing so?
> 
> Presuming you are physically and mentally able and have to decide today what you will do, what would you do?


The reason people use depends, is because until you are in the situation RIGHT NOW, no one truly knows what they will do, even if they think they do, they don’t know for sure. My parents have thought about their retirement and aging for decades. They had a very clear idea of what they wanted, and I think there are very few doe as well thought out as them. 

So when my mother was no longer at home, and my dad both mentally and physically able to stay at home who didn’t do any of the housework in their 60+ years of marriage, he said her would move in to one of those seniors complexes that didn’t need health care, had laundry, house keeping, and a few other facilities, plus the restaurant even though there was a full small kitchen. Everything that you listed. We found an available unit, was gong to take it, and he just couldn’t do it. He decided he would rather learn to do laundry(he is really bad at it), eat out with his buddies (he was a great cook), let the massive garden grow over, and we would outsource. 

We were at the point of signing the contract for him to move in, but he just didn’t want to do it. I can’t answer what I would do right now, as I am not there. I can only think of options, understanding that it will depend. 

The cost for was about $3000 / month , plus food. For him right now, the additional cost for outsourcing, not including food is about $800 more now that my mother isn’t home. He finds he doesn’t need someone weekly for his laundry and house keeping. It’s the extra $3k a month that they pay for my mother while my dad is at home that they didn’t fully factor for.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> The reason people use depends, is because until you are in the situation RIGHT NOW, no one truly knows what they will do, even if they think they do, they don’t know for sure.


I thought people used Depends for some other purpose. But I guess one does not know until one gets there. The purpose to which those things might be put is a matter of imagination, I suppose.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> I thought people used Depends for some other purpose. But I guess one does not know until one gets there. The purpose to which those things might be put is a matter of imagination, I suppose.


I should have said one of reasons for people to use the word depends is that they don’t know what they will do until they get there. I was referring specifically to my father. Whereas LTA has his made up reason for why people used depends. There’s lots of valid reasons for why someone uses depends


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> LTA
> I don't think you will get any consistent input from this thread. Too much variety of responders!
> 
> I have had my father, brother, MIL and X-MIL go through the end of life experience. Your motel would not have worked for any of them. And it will not work for me or my spouse.
> ...


Yes, I don't expect it to suit everyone obviously but I do think it will suit a percentage and that there is a gap in the market that is not being well served. When you look at Retirement Home sites online they are mostly very coy about showing prices. But I did find one site that gives some specifics although some aspects are unclear.
https://www.comfortlife.ca/retirement-community-resources/retirement-costs-ontario

Simply put, there are a lot of single retirees who simply could not afford most of Retirement Homes that are available and where they could, that assumes there is a vacancy in the RH they chose. Reading this article : https://retirehappy.ca/how-much-money-spend-retirement/, as well as the embedded Sunlife report, what it is saying to me is that there are a reasonable percentage of single retirees living on an income of $25-35k per year. If an average RH is $36k per year, they can't afford that.

For those people, it is not so much a question of what would they PREFER but a question of what options can they AFFORD. I'm looking at providing an affordable option at what we could call the 'budget' end of the scale. This link shows a good example of 'Joe Canuck' who earns $40k per year pre-retirement, has no company pension plan but does set aside savings for his retirement. That describes a whole lot of people in Canada. https://globalnews.ca/news/3981582/how-much-to-save-for-retirement-canada/ Not everyone is a typical CMFer after all.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> My life wouldn't change much if spouse went tomorrow. We share cooking, kitchen cleanup, laundry and food shopping duties already in about equal terms give or take, and have a housecleaning service. The main change is I would not cook as much since I am less adept at the breadth of cooking than she is. Off-tangent, but I don't know of a single millenial/Gen-Xer male in our family who doesn't do at least some household duties, and in a few cases the majority of it. They are each well positioned to take care of themselves.


We all differ of course AltaRed and as I have said I don't expect it to suit everyone. But I do believe it will suit enough to be viable. Ignoring your own capabilities and preferences, would you agree with that statement?

Even if I could do the cooking, cleaning and laundry, the gardening is actually one thing that would be enough alone to tell me I have to move. Plugging Along mentioned his father letting the garden 'grow over'. I could not stand to see that happen. The new owners might let it happen but I would not be there to see it.

For some, I believe they have far less choice than perhaps the average CMFer. It is that specific segment that I am looking at and only in the Boomer generation. It is a 'window' of opportunity based on the Boomer generation's needs over the next 30 years or so. I am not looking for it to last beyond that. Not every business has to last forever to be successful.

In fact, I do not expect to be involved in it beyond the first couple of years. I would only go into it with an exit strategy in mind. Develop it, get it up and running profitably, sell it. When the fun ends, it's time to move on. I have found that approach works well for me.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> In fact, I do not expect to be involved in it beyond the first couple of years. I would only go into it with an exit strategy in mind. Develop it, get it up and running profitably, sell it. When the fun ends, it's time to move on. I have found that approach works well for me.


The developer that built all the homes in our community has since switched to building retirement apartments; one is right nearby where we live. Their radio ads play on the fact that it's where the owner's mother lives. Then he sold it to some big "codger warehousing corporation", built another one, and advertises how his own mother lives there. He's done this 3 times so far. We had a tour of the one close by, and see that they are like tiny hotel rooms, no facilities for cooking your own food; you have to eat in their dining room. They have activities, and some days we can hear live music coming from some outdoor event.

No effing way in hell would my wife or I ever consider moving into such a place. We value our independence too much. If one of us dies, the other will probably sell the house and either buy a condo, or rent a flat above a store somewhere downtown within walking distance of stores and transit. If I'm the survivor, I would even actually consider buying/building a small house in the boonies somewhere, and go full hermit mode. When my time comes, just go for a long one-way walk in the woods.

So, your idea of a retirement motel isn't too bad, but it would really depend on how clean it is, and what's there to do nearby. If all there is to do is sit in a squalid motel room watching TV day in and day out, that's not very appealing to me.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> The developer that built all the homes in our community has since switched to building retirement apartments; one is right nearby where we live. Their radio ads play on the fact that it's where the owner's mother lives. Then he sold it to some big "codger warehousing corporation", built another one, and advertises how his own mother lives there. He's done this 3 times so far. We had a tour of the one close by, and see that they are like tiny hotel rooms, no facilities for cooking your own food; you have to eat in their dining room. They have activities, and some days we can hear live music coming from some outdoor event.
> 
> No effing way in hell would my wife or I ever consider moving into such a place. We value our independence too much. If one of us dies, the other will probably sell the house and either buy a condo, or rent a flat above a store somewhere downtown within walking distance of stores and transit. If I'm the survivor, I would even actually consider buying/building a small house in the boonies somewhere, and go full hermit mode. When my time comes, just go for a long one-way walk in the woods.
> 
> So, your idea of a retirement motel isn't too bad, but it would really depend on how clean it is, and what's there to do nearby. If all there is to do is sit in a squalid motel room watching TV day in and day out, that's not very appealing to me.


Ah, a potential customer. Interesting about the developer Userkare, using his Mother as a selling point is amusing. Full hermit mode would have pretty limited appeal I think. I won't worry about losing business to that option. So you say my idea isn't 'too bad', that's encouraging. I agree with cleanliness and what's to do nearby. I am definitely not thinking of anyone having to 'sit in a squalid motel room watching tv day in and day out'. The property I am looking at is located on the outskirts of a small town and even those who still drive may not find a small town appealing I realize, but there are plenty of people who also do find that appealing, otherwise people would not be living in small towns.

Interestingly, a relative of mine who grew up in the big city and lived in a downtown condo moved to a small town and found that really, almost nothing in his daily 'routine' changed. He still does the things he did every day in the city. Once you are past the age of wanting access to Friday night at the bar trying to meet the opposite sex and partying etc. life does become simpler in terms of what you actually spend your days doing. I don't anticipate a problem with finding potential residents.

It is to avoid being a 'social recluse' as one poster has called it that someone might want to move to a place with like minded people and some common areas in which to mix. I would expect that there will be 'organizer' types who will relish the idea of planning and arranging things to do with other residents. 'Who wants to sign up to go to the racetrack next Friday?' etc.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> It is to avoid being a 'social recluse' as one poster has called it that someone might want to move to a place with like minded people and some common areas in which to mix. I would expect that there will be 'organizer' types who will relish the idea of planning and arranging things to do with other residents. 'Who wants to sign up to go to the racetrack next Friday?' etc.



alas the above is one of the flaws in your business plan imho. There is really no difference between your zero services motel for retirees & a plain ordinary motel. 

you cannot have any kind of seniors housing without a professional recreation planner. In the above paragraph you are imagining that your motel residents will organize themselves & other residents into a program of activities. However the likely reality is that they won't. You could even have fights & uproar as unsupervised seniors get into trouble.

you've mentioned that all previous motel iterations on the same premises have failed. Even their restaurants have failed. Why would anyone expect that another motel iteration, this one with idle seniors possibly in failing health as clients, would succeed.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> I should have said one of reasons for people to use the word depends is that they don’t know what they will do until they get there. I was referring specifically to my father. Whereas LTA has his made up reason for why people used depends. There’s lots of valid reasons for why someone uses depends



c'mon Plugging MP is pulling your leg

(quite a few in-jokes lie half-buried in cmf forum lines these days) (possibly a reaction to global angst)


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> ......quite a few in-jokes lie half-buried in cmf forum lines these days......


haha, Mukhang pera is one of CMF's best jokers.

I laughed at his joke above when he wrote it, but not as much as when I read Plugging's response. Funny stuff.

ltr


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> There is really no difference between your zero services motel for retirees & a plain ordinary motel.


Think of it as a 'residence hotel' as opposed to plucking tired travelers off Hwy 401 for a single night. There are so many places and towns along that route, the competition would be fierce for the single night stays.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> c'mon Plugging MP is pulling your leg
> 
> (quite a few in-jokes lie half-buried in cmf forum lines these days) (possibly a reaction to global angst)


I will admit, I totally missed the joke, and had to reread even when you pointed it out. Have been a little pulled in different directions, so unless the humour in right in my face, I have been lacking the brain cells. =). Thanks


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Ah, a potential customer. Interesting about the developer Userkare, using his Mother as a selling point is amusing. Full hermit mode would have pretty limited appeal I think. I won't worry about losing business to that option. So you say my idea isn't 'too bad', that's encouraging. I agree with cleanliness and what's to do nearby. I am definitely not thinking of anyone having to 'sit in a squalid motel room watching tv day in and day out'. The property I am looking at is located on the outskirts of a small town and even those who still drive may not find a small town appealing I realize, but there are plenty of people who also do find that appealing, otherwise people would not be living in small towns.
> 
> Interestingly, a relative of mine who grew up in the big city and lived in a downtown condo moved to a small town and found that really, almost nothing in his daily 'routine' changed. He still does the things he did every day in the city. Once you are past the age of wanting access to Friday night at the bar trying to meet the opposite sex and partying etc. life does become simpler in terms of what you actually spend your days doing. I don't anticipate a problem with finding potential residents.
> 
> It is to avoid being a 'social recluse' as one poster has called it that someone might want to move to a place with like minded people and some common areas in which to mix. I would expect that there will be 'organizer' types who will relish the idea of planning and arranging things to do with other residents. 'Who wants to sign up to go to the racetrack next Friday?' etc.


A few random points with your business idea.

I think it's doable, you just have to keep in mind that you have a very small demographic from what I have read. 
Your ‘demographics’:
- For retirees 65+plus that are still physically and mentally independent
- Generally, not couples by where one spouse is left alone and doesn't want to do all of the things their former spouse used to do 
-No healthcare services, but the maintenance 
- Looking to live on about $24K a year (not including food) 

From where I see the challenges are – 
-	It would most likely be an old school male such as yourself that would want such a place, as the services you are talking about (laundry & housekeeping) are often done by the female. Any condo/apartment would eliminate most of the outdoor or larger maintenance
-	Generally, women live longer than men, so there would be lesser of an appeal for a female to move into your retirement community as they are fine with the housekeeping and cooking
-	Income wise, your idea is appealing. However, it’s a very narrow range. In my research for my parents, I found you could find quite nice places (not THE BEST) but $5K a month was the starting sweet spot for really good facilities (at least in my City, which has a HCOL). I also found that if you were lower income, you could get subsidized provincial funding and live for under $2k (food included) The range you would be looking at is for those single retirees with the income somewhere around $35k - $60k per annum

Being this is a small town, how many people meet the above criteria. Then you also have to take a look at how much more is it to outsource the work they want. You are not providing much more than a condo/apartment unit where cleaning and laundry services are available. Those services even weekly run between $150-$250 a week (in my City, which is expensive for smaller town) You would be able to get that service less expensive running a motel as the cost would be shared. We pay $50 a month for my mothers laundry at the home. 

My question would be where is your value proposition for the location you have in mind? I would see that things we would have paid for my father when he was making this decision –
-	Proximity to other amenities. The last thing a senior wants to do no matter how able is drive out very far in a snow storm to get groceries or go somewhere. Is the location closer to services such as medical, groceries, coffee shops, and where ever else seniors go? In my dad’s case, he visits my mother every day, so he needs to be close to her home. He also wants to be near his pharmacy (that seems to be his most frequent place) and grocery store.
-	The next piece that would add value would have organized activities available. To expect a bunch of seniors to self organize even if there is a space to do so is asking a lot. People, not just seniors are really lousy at organizing people especially strangers. I know, as I usually end up being the organizer in many many scenarios. People just don’t like to do it. If there was on site programming included that would be of value. Social interaction is one of the biggest things that keeps the mind going. When my mom was at the hospital waiting for her spot in the home, we saw a deterioration because she wasn’t getting the social simulation. We went every day, and paid for someone to come and do things for her. I would expect this from a retirement community.

The building that I looked at for my dad was an apartment where each person could do all the things you mentioned, they could be independent but there was a restaurant where there was a full meal plan (It was about $750 a month) or you could just pay for the meals that you wanted. It was right near downtown with access to everything, and there was a daily schedule of in building activities along with off site outings. It could cater to both singles and couple. It was essentially the next step from living totally independently in your own apartment/condo with a few more services. 

You only need 24 residents to fill your location. I think that will depend on the demographic of the area. You have a lot of business experience, so the question is do you think there are enough people that meet the demographic for what you are considering offering.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> alas the above is one of the flaws in your business plan imho. There is really no difference between your zero services motel for retirees & a plain ordinary motel.
> 
> you cannot have any kind of seniors housing without a professional recreation planner. In the above paragraph you are imagining that your motel residents will organize themselves & other residents into a program of activities. However the likely reality is that they won't. You could even have fights & uproar as unsupervised seniors get into trouble.
> 
> you've mentioned that all previous motel iterations on the same premises have failed. Even their restaurants have failed. Why would anyone expect that another motel iteration, this one with idle seniors possibly in failing health as clients, would succeed.


All feedback appreciated even if it is negative. I want to have to think about isssues such as you raise, before I go down the road.

It is not a 'plain ordinary motel' at all humble_pie. First it will be marketed to seniors on a monthly rental. There will be no attempt to attract others to it as a 'motel' as such. I expect the No Vacancy sign to be permanently lit. The only reason I am thinking of maintaining it as a motel is to avoid having to comply with the Retirement Home Act if the requirements prove to onerous.

I can have any kind of seniors housing I want, don't say 'you cannot' when what you mean is you think having a planner would be preferable. I may decide to have someone cover some aspects of that if no residents voluntarily take on such a role. Nothing is cast in concrete. I could for example offer a resident half rent for taking it on if one seems capable.

Your experience re someone being an 'organizer' is an opinion but my opinion differs. I have seen people take on organizing things voluntarily, some actually want to be 'in charge'. I do agree however that one way or another, some organized activities would be preferable.

Previous attempts to run a profitable motel have indeed all failed in the last 10 years, I don't know about before that but this is an entirely different type of venture. You can't look at a motel failure and suggest it means a Retirement Home would fail. That dog simply won't hunt humble_pie.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> Think of it as a 'residence hotel' as opposed to plucking tired travelers off Hwy 401 for a single night. There are so many places and towns along that route, the competition would be fierce for the single night stays.


Correctamundo Userkare, that I believe was the problem with it as a motel and its location is either too far or not far enough between A and B. As a Residence Hotel as you call it, travellers are not even on the radar as a market at all. In fact, what I would not want is them pulling off the highway and asking for a room for the night.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

ok u have your smooth-talking points but i have yet to hear of a business plan that was going to rely upon a maybe/maybe not volunteer among its future clients to provide an essential service


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> ok u have your smooth-talking points but i have yet to hear of a business plan that was going to rely upon a maybe/maybe not volunteer among its future clients to provide an essential service


Don't forget humble_pie my background is in Sales and Marketing. I was one of the first to sell ice to Eskimos back in the day. It was called a refrigerator.

Seriously, I take your point and that of Plugging Along re activities. I do want them to be there, I just disagree with you on whether you can get people to volunteer to organize them. The business plan does not 'rely' on them as you put it however. I am also open as I have said to having to do something about it if necessary. Don't try to hang your hat on what you perceive as one negative point. All I see is a bump in the road that can easily be dealt with if needed.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> Seriously, I take your point and that of Plugging Along re activities. I do want them to be there, I just disagree with you on whether you can get people to volunteer to organize them.


I'm thinking that you would probably see cliques form among similar minded residents. Those who are gamblers might want to only arrange trips to the casino down the road; some sports enthusiasts might only want outings to games in TO, Ott, or Mtl; others might want to make the trip to a large city only for theatre or arts. You can't please everyone all the time.

It might work itself out, but also has the potential for a "Lord of the Flies" scenario. Not really your problem to police, but also not the Utopia you might hope for.

Personally, I usually find my own age peers boring a/f. The topic of discussion always ends up as criticising the young'uns music, medical maladies, aches and pains, and medications. I think I'd rather just be in the general population than cloistered with a bunch of rotters in the center of nowhere.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Don't forget humble_pie my background is in Sales and Marketing.
> The business plan does not 'rely' on them as you put it however. I am also open as I have said to having to do something about it if necessary.





Longtimeago said:


> First it will be marketed to seniors on a monthly rental. There will be no attempt to attract others to it as a 'motel' as such.
> .


I appreciate that you were a slick sales person before, but I am not seeing what you would actually market that is of value to a senior.

My understanding of your concept so far is a monthly rental that seniors could live in. If I strip away the ‘marketing or sales’, you have a monthly rental would have housekeeping and laundry with a common area which people could self organize, and a restaurant they could go to. 

Some more random questions?
Would you have an min age limit? What if an out of town traveller wants to rent it for a few months? 
How is this different from an apartment or condo with a housekeeping service? 
Is there the option to bring your own furniture and change the decor? 
What is it that your are offering that can’t be found already? 

Just to confirm, there are currently 24 rooms. I assume they are motel sized with a bathroom, kitchenette. Do they have a small sitting area and area to watch TV like a suite or are they smaller rooms like the standard hotel which you watch tv from the bed. 

My question is what makes your place a seniors place other than the marketing.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> I appreciate that you were a slick sales person before



Plug do u think LTA was a slick sales person actually

all i can imagine is a personnage lecturing his listeners that they have to smarten up & do exactly what he orders

walk over there. move back here. stand up. sit down. pay strict attention to what i say because i am always righteous. write this on the board 500 times: hey hey, must obey, all the way, ell tee eh


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> A few random points with your business idea.
> 
> 
> Thanks for offering some thoughts up Plugging Along.
> ...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> I'm thinking that you would probably see cliques form among similar minded residents. Those who are gamblers might want to only arrange trips to the casino down the road; some sports enthusiasts might only want outings to games in TO, Ott, or Mtl; others might want to make the trip to a large city only for theatre or arts. You can't please everyone all the time.
> 
> It might work itself out, but also has the potential for a "Lord of the Flies" scenario. Not really your problem to police, but also not the Utopia you might hope for.
> 
> Personally, I usually find my own age peers boring a/f. The topic of discussion always ends up as criticising the young'uns music, medical maladies, aches and pains, and medications. I think I'd rather just be in the general population than cloistered with a bunch of rotters in the center of nowhere.


OK, what's wrong with cliques? As I wrote in my previous response, someone might want to start a Bridge Club or a Hiking Club. What's wrong with someone wanting to organize trips to a casino (there are a couple not that far away by the way), or trips to a Blue Jays game, etc. No activities whether organized by a resident or a full time Activities Organizer is going to 'please everyone all the time.' They aren't intended to. I think what is wanted is a range of activities of which some will appeal to you. 

If you have ever visited a Retirement Home or town Seniors Centre, you will see all kinds of activities listed that you would have no interest in whatsoever. If you see NONE that would interest you that might be a problem but if you don't want to organize something yourself by putting a notice on the bulletin board in the common room, then maybe you need to look for somewhere else to live. 

I am not hoping for Utopia at all. But I also don't see any reason to think you might get a 'Lord of the Flies' scenario as you suggest. How would that happen? The Bridge Club meets on Wednesday afternoon and someone insists they want to set up a ping pong table at the same time, so they get into a fist fight? That is a pretty far fetched objection I think Userkare.

The concept might not appeal to you Userkare and I understand that but all it means is you are not part of the target market. Very few products in the world are intended to suit the entire marketplace.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> I appreciate that you were a slick sales person before, but I am not seeing what you would actually market that is of value to a senior.
> 
> My understanding of your concept so far is a monthly rental that seniors could live in. If I strip away the ‘marketing or sales’, you have a monthly rental would have housekeeping and laundry with a common area which people could self organize, and a restaurant they could go to.
> 
> ...


Yes, you understand the concept correctly but what you are not seeing is as you say, 'what you would market that is of value to the senior'. The simple answer Plugging Along is a place to live that the person can afford and in which they are freed from doing the things they do not want to do. Is that not of value to the senior? The concept IS the value.

An age limit, not necessarily but I can't see a 30 year old wanting to live with a bunch of 60-80 year olds can you? 
An out of towner who wants to rent for a few months, well the same though occurs, who would want to. Also, given the location, I can't see many such people turning up at the door. Finally, if you have 100% occupancy (which is basically necessary to make it viable) all the time and a waiting list, when would you have a unit available for them to rent for a 'few months'?

It is different from an apartment or condo with housekeeping services in that the restaurant is there but more importantly, it is different in cost. It is aimed at a specific income bracket remember.

An option to bring furniture or change the decor could be negotiable after a period of residency. I have thought of that.

What can't be found is something in this price bracket, it's pretty simple. There are simply not enough 'affordable' options available to the target market right now.

Room sizes are generous compared to an average motel room. I also anticipate freeing up more of the existing space by changing out the queen beds to single beds. There will be room for a sofa and maybe a small desk and chair for your laptop etc. So yes, more like a studio than just a standard smaller room. The existing room sizes is one of the pluses of the property.

What makes it a seniors place other than the marketing? Well what makes any place a seniors place other than the marketing? LOL, if it is geared to seniors and their needs, that's what makes it a 'seniors place'. That's also what marketing is. LOL


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> Plug do u think LTA was a slick sales person actually
> 
> all i can imagine is a personnage lecturing his listeners that they have to smarten up & do exactly what he orders
> 
> walk over there. move back here. stand up. sit down. pay strict attention to what i say because i am always righteous. write this on the board 500 times: hey hey, must obey, all the way, ell tee eh


I don't want to get off track here with personal comments humble_pie so I would appreciate it if you stuck to the topic. All I will say in regards to my sales abilities is that they got me retired at 43 and I think that should be enough to shut down any questions about that.

In looking at this potential venture I am also confident of my sales abilities to be able to attract 4 investors at $500k each for a 20% stake in the game.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> .....my sales abilities is that they got me retired at 43 and I think that should be enough to shut down any questions about that


Well, may one question - if you're retired, why are you taking on this task? Surely there are more satisfying things you could be doing?

ltr


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> Plug do u think LTA was a slick sales person actually
> 
> all i can imagine is a personnage lecturing his listeners that they have to smarten up & do exactly what he orders
> 
> walk over there. move back here. stand up. sit down. pay strict attention to what i say because i am always righteous. write this on the board 500 times: hey hey, must obey, all the way, ell tee eh


I did say slick for a reason. He retired early, so I have to believe he has some way of closing the sale. 
LOL. I don’t want to imagine LTA demeanour any more than what I see on here. His pompous, righteous, condescending attitude is off putting, but I was more commenting on the business idea, until he goes off an one of his controlling rants then I will be out.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

like_to_retire said:


> Well, may one question - if you're retired, why are you taking on this task? Surely there are more satisfying things you could be doing?
> 
> ltr


Fair question like_to_retire. During my retirement (30 years now) I have 'fallen into' several things along the way. I have gone into them because they looked like they would be fun to do and I have done them only until they stopped being fun.

Being retired doesn't mean you suddenly go blind. Someone who has been in the habit of seeing opportunities still sees them and that is the case here. I see opportunities to make money all the time but the vast majority of those opportunities are what you call a 'task' which is just another word for WORK. I'm not interested in work but finding something that would be fun AND make you money is an entirely different thing. Even if you don't need the money, there is a 'kick' to be got from such a venture. I see this venture as offering that. I think it would be FUN to get into this for a year or two and then sell out at a profit. There is no reason it could not be as 'satisfying' as doing anything else with time. It has been quite a few years now since I have come across anything that interested me enough to get involved in but I might even just develop the plan in detail and then find someone to sell the plan to and let them run with it.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

Here is a link for anyone who may be interested. I don't know much about them but we financed one once when I was in the business:
https://abbeyfield.ca/houses/


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

frase said:


> Here is a link for anyone who may be interested. I don't know much about them but we financed one once when I was in the business:
> https://abbeyfield.ca/houses/


Interesting frase but those are registered charities and so non-profit. They do not include cleaning of your unit or laundry and require you to cover your own internet and cable costs separately. The rooms are unfurnished. They seem to concentrate more on freeing you from cooking. The Ottawa home states on their page that the price is $2,137 per month.

The Kelowna one says, "Rent is $1625 per room and includes: basic cable, 3 meals a day, free laundry facilities, as well as a live-in night responder for emergencies. Residents are expects to have their own phone line in their room." It also shows that each has a TWO piece bathroom and that there is shared shower and walk-in bathtub. 

Vernon seems much the same with shared showers, no kitchenettes and says you cannot make tea(or coffee I guess) in your room. So they are quite limited really in what they offer and do seem to emphasis getting meals cooked for you as a prime feature. The house 'Coordinator' does that apparently. I see no sign of organized activities either.

While basically similar I would consider them inferior in what they offer to what I am considering. What I am considering offering that these do not, appears to be full bathroom; kitchenette; housekeeping/laundry done; internet and cable included; meals optional in the restaurant; outdoor swimming pool.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I have a handle on what to expect for the purchase cost as is, based on what it sold for the last few times it was sold. Basically, as a business it is worth nothing since it is not a profitable business venture as it stands. It is only the land and building itself that has any real value.

I have a handle on renovation costs as well since they will be quite standard.

I know what price range I want to be able to aim for and what kind of Return On Investment I want to achieve in order to be able to sell if for a year or two down the road and what kind of profit I want to generate from the sale.

The only area I am not yet sure of is the restaurant. While I have ideas for the restaurant to differentiate it and market it to the public, I don't know enough about the restaurant business to forecast numbers. I need to find someone who can do that still. I do expect the restaurant to turn a profit on its own and to be a decent part of the profit from the sale of the property down the road. I consider the past failure of the restaurant as separate from the failure of the motel.

Basically, the restaurant tried to compete in the past as just another 'family restaurant' like any other and that is not the approach I envision taking. But as I said, I need to find someone to advise me on that aspect.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> I have a handle on renovation costs as well since they will be quite standard.
> 
> I know what price range I want to be able to aim for and what kind of Return On Investment I want to achieve in order to be able to sell if for a year or two down the road and what kind of profit I want to generate from the sale.



idk, do you really have a handle on the renovation costs? it sounds expensive: new beds, bedding, TV, wi-fi installation, painting for each of 24 suites - more if the suites include mini-kitchenettes - plus construction of a new community salon plus renovation of an existing kitchen/restaurant zone plus probably some major infrastructure repair such as new wiring, new roof, new plumbing since you've mentioned the building has been neglected for years.

perhaps $200-250k? alas unlike the recreation planner, you won't find volunteer contractors among the future residents.

then there are other costs. Marketing. Advertising. Staff - you'll need a manager or at least a concierge on the motel premises, along with cooks & wait/server staff, as well as housekeeper and/or janitor. Laundry (or will the residents be expected to wash their own sheets & blankets.)

lucky you if you happen to have $$ quarter million in cash sitting around. Otherwise, do you have a bank or other lender lined up to finance the new project?

lastly, you mention you plan to flip the seniors residence for profit in a year. So sorry to be dense on matters senior housing; but doesn't the normal procedure for a new business have the entrepreneur working his socks off night & day for no pay, not even any holidays, for the first couple of years, in order to get the startup costs & debts under control? surely it might be difficult to flip a senior housing project that's burdened with heavy debt after only one year of operation.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> idk, do you really have a handle on the renovation costs? it sounds expensive: new beds, bedding, TV, wi-fi installation, painting for each of 24 suites - more if the suites include mini-kitchenettes - plus construction of a new community salon plus renovation of an existing kitchen/restaurant zone plus probably some major infrastructure repair such as new wiring, new roof, new plumbing since you've mentioned the building has been neglected for years.
> 
> perhaps $200-250k? alas unlike the recreation planner, you won't find volunteer contractors among the future residents.
> 
> ...


Well assuming you are actually asking all these questions and are interested in the answers humble_pie, I will try to answer them for you.

A rough number for now of renovation costs for the units only is $25k per unit. That totals $600k. Then you have the managers resident renovation and the restaurant renovation. 

There is no 'construction of a new community salon' as such required, I don't know where you got that idea from. As I wrote earlier, the existing restaurant is far too big for the potential market available. The common areas for the residents will require only the adding of some partition walls dividing the existing restaurant area roughly in half. Currently, the restaurant is big enough to seat around 100 people. It's BIG. That's one of it's problems as a restaurant, it has no atmosphere possible even if there are 20 people in it for lunch or dinner. I envision it at a size that with 20 people makes it look busy and 'humming' if you understand what I mean.

Renovation of the manager's apartment to a decent standard will run around $50k. I expect another $150-250k for the rest. Once divided, both the restaurant and residents common areas will need new paint, carpet, furnishings, decorating, etc. For example I envision a gas fireplace in the common area and perhaps one in the restaurant area as well. Some high wing back leather chairs as well as tables and chairs for board games etc. in the common area. Bookcases filled with 'take one, leave one' books for the residents. I am not looking at offering some low class dump here humble_pie. 

I mentioned the roof was replaced a few years ago with a new steel roof. As I am sure you know, that means the roof is taken care of for the foreseeable future. The building is not ancient, probably around 1960-70s or so. I do not anticipate any major issues with the electrical or plumbing. Some new wiring and plumbing will no doubt be necessary but not any major costs. I have never wrote that the building has been 'neglected'. It simply needs updating which is an entirely different thing from what a 'neglected' building might need. I anticipate a total renovation cost of between $800-900K. Your $2-250k number is far too low. Perhaps you are just not used to thinking in terms of those kinds of numbers.

Costs for marketing/advertising, staff, etc. will occur of course as well. Marketing/advertising will be limited to roughly a 100km area as I have also already mentioned. None of it will be high cost. I've mentioned that as well already. Staff will consist of a full time Manager for the property; a full time housekeeping/laundry person(I have already mentioned weekly laundry service will be included); One full time cook/chef of a decent level (not a short order cook who worked at 'Steve's Family Restaurant'); a full time front of house Manager for the restaurant. So 4 full time employees and then as many part time employees as are required. There is no appreciable 'up front' investment cost in hiring any staff, they will be paid from the income generated. I expect income to cover them after the first couple of months of operation.

I do not intend to put ANY money into the venture at all beyond some small costs for input from an accountant and lawyer before finalizing the business plan. Even those I would deduct(get back) as costs incurred along with renovations etc. before the doors are opened. I will find 4 investors ideally, each of whom will put up $500k in cash either of their own or borrowed by them. In return, each will have a 20% share of the company. They will not be required to be involved in anything other than providing the money. I will hold the last 20% and in return for my share, I will drive the project fully up until opening and then will expect the Manager, chef and front of house managers to drive from there on with little supervision needed from me.

The overall Manager will receive a percentage of the overall profits of the company as well as a salary. The chef and front of house manager will each receive a percentage of profits from the restaurant. That percentage of profit is what I expect to drive them to make it work. It is about finding the right people to run it humble_pie and giving them the incentive they need to commit to making it succeed and then just getting out of their way. they are the people who will 'work their socks off' in the first year or two to make it work. This approach is nothing new in starting up a business, it's done all the time.

The intent going in is to have an exit plan. That is part of what sells it to an investor. Put simply, you put say $2 mil into buying and starting up a business. You then develop it to the point it is profitable. That means it is generating enough income to cover all debt and show a profit. Now it is worth MORE than $2 mil. The only question is how much more can you sell it for.

If you borrow $2 mil at 5% interest and with a 10 year term, the monthly payment required is only $20k. If the 24 units were rented at say $2k per month they would generate $48k per year alone. Even after paying staff, fixed costs, etc. that alone would be enough to service the debt. There is no 'burden of heavy debt'. I also expect the restaurant to produce income and a profit.

I'm simplifying this of course but it isn't really all that complicated. The income will cover the costs and service the debt. All the investors want to know is how much profit will they be able to realize when they exit. So let's say you sell for $2.5 mil after 2 years. You pay of the existing debt which takes $2 mil even after payments have been made for 2 years. That leaves a half mil profit which could represent a 10% ROI on the original investment of $500k per investor or if they look at what they actually invested rather than borrowed, might mean that for a cash investment of $50k and a loan of $450k, they earned $100k from their actual $50k investment. That's a 100% profit over 2 years.

Selling an investor on something that is expected to generate a 100% or MORE profit in 2 years is all about how they perceive the risk of it not working out. The numbers work and that's not a problem but do they believe it will succeed? If they do, they buy in, if they don't you find someone else.

And before anyone gets excited and starts saying, 'well yeah, but they risk having to pay the loans if it fails and lose $500k'. No they don't. If it failed they would lose their $50k and whatever portion of the loan they had to pay AFTER selling the property, it will not be the full amount at risk, no matter what happens. If you could only sell the property for example at $1.5 mil they might each lose roughly $100k total. If instead they had invested that $100k at 5% it would have earned them $5k. So you are looking at earning the potential of $100k vs. $5k by risking $100k. 

These numbers re selling price, profit or loss are simplified but should give the basic picture.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

By the way, suggesting a $2.5 mil selling price for the company is not high, it is low. The 'business' not including the property itself would be valued at roughly $1 mil if it were returning a 10% profit on sales. Add to that whatever value the property/building itself has and you come to a potential selling price. If the numbers I've used were real, it could sell for $3 mil and that would mean a profit of $200k on a $50k cash investment after the 2 years.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> ... And before anyone gets excited and starts saying, 'well yeah, but they risk having to pay the loans if it fails and lose $500k'. No they don't. If it failed they would lose their $50k and whatever portion of the loan they had to pay AFTER selling the property, it will not be the full amount at risk, no matter what happens. If you could only sell the property for example at $1.5 mil they might each lose roughly $100k total ...


A good point ... though if you are getting property at steal based on the number of past failures, should this new concept also fail - won't bidders be adding "failed retirement motel" to the list to justify their low ball bid?

What sort of minimum number of rentals would cover expenses ... based on the ball park numbers?



Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

project is looking better & better as you go along here

re the "residents' common area" which i referred to as a "community salon," isn't this merely a question of semantics

it's the area you envision partitioning off from a too-cavernous dining room & building into a meetup/sitting/recreation room for your residents, no? but you're not planning to offer "some low class dump here," so the community room is going to have handsome wingback leather chairs, a fireplace, an informal library (don't forget the wifi & enuf desks or small folding side tables for devices) plus i imagine the residents would enjoy a widescreen entertainment TV (subscription is another cost)

it seems to me that if you could find 4 or 5 angel investors then your debt would be minimal or considerably reduced, so that part could sort itself OK in the end. Although it occurs to me to ask, Were you Hoping that some Angels would Pop out of the CMF forum Woodwork?

re the restaurant: perhaps you might be able to recruit Plugging Along again, she's a great cook w fantastic experience, might possibly have some good suggestions.

my restaurant thought would be to help the budget by offering buffet breakfasts. Eggs & coffee in keep-warm serving vessels & trays. This would mean kitchen staff would not have to come in until it was time to start lunch. On the other hand, perhaps your plan is to have all meals self-serve buffet style.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

It sounds something like a place my mom lived in. It is billed as a seniors residence or a senior community. More services provided than a basic condo or apartment, but less than assisted living. It originally was registered as a retirement home but they let that lapse, probably for the same reason you don't want a retirement home. It is an apartment block, marketed to seniors (but no lower age limit). I'm guessing it has around 50 units so bigger than your proposal. Most units are 1 bedroom with a few studios and 2-bedroom units. Units have a fridge, sink and a microwave shelf, but no stove. Food service is optional, with continental breakfast, and lunch & dinner served in a dining room prepared in an onsite kitchen. There's also a lounge area with coffee tables & lounge chairs where residents chat, have coffee, read, do jigsaw puzzles etc. Also has a common room with TV, card tables, kitchen, a media room/theatre, library area with bookshelves (donated books) and a couple of computers. There are a few organized activities like movie night, on-site entertainment once a seek, card games, etc. Occasional offsite shopping trips or other events organized by management. Unlike your proposal there's no room cleaning service, or laundry service.

There is no onsite medical or personal care funded by the management. Many residents get additional services. Some are contracted by the resident like laundry & cleaning. Some are government funded like personal support workers that visit daily (VON, Nurse Next Door etc.). Also there is an onsite nurse practitioner 2x/week (at least when the gov't approves a contract worker). A few activities get organized by residents, but they usually peter out after a while since it's hard to find common interests and the organizers usually get fed up with trying to run things.

The place was well run at first, then declined due to management issues, then the owner stepped back from operations and got a better operator in and things improved. Food service was often an issue, they'd get a new service provider, things would improve, then decline again. Same with cleaning and management services. They tried to get by for a while without a day manager, but there were just too many little day to day items that were not getting done. Keeping the place running well was often an issue, maybe your experience and drive will give you a leg up there.

My impression of the target market is different than others here. Mom's place was probably 2/3 to 75% women. They just live longer so need more later year accommodation. Plus in my experience women recognize the inevitable that living alone in a house is hard, and it's better in a place with less maintenance needs and more services. Most of my male friends (I am early sixties) will stay in their house as long as they possibly can. I have heard from other 80 or 90 year old men that going into any senior housing is giving up too much freedom and losing too much control.

For myself, I would also push off moving to a residence like you describe, not as long as I could, but at least until I no longer want to get out kayaking, bike riding, snowshoeing, doing photography etc. I'm not much for jawboning endlessly with other people, I'd rather get outside. I know that will end some day, but I work out in a gym and at home regularly to try to postpone the inevitable.

There's definitely a growing market for various types of seniors residences. Correctly assessing the target market, price point and services needed is a key point, as is ensuring it is managed well so it maintains a good community reputation.

Hope this helps (despite my experience and opinions not lining exactly up with your vision).


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> A good point ... though if you are getting property at steal based on the number of past failures, should this new concept also fail - won't bidders be adding "failed retirement motel" to the list to justify their low ball bid?
> 
> What sort of minimum number of rentals would cover expenses ... based on the ball park numbers?
> 
> ...


I haven't really got to the point yet of being able to suggest overall running costs Eclectic12 since I don't have a feel for the restaurant costs involved. The rental charge per unit is also still very ballpark because numbers are all still preliminary. I would expect unit rentals to cover all costs though and still show a profit. Restaurant profit would be on top of that. I do expect restaurant profit to contribute a significant percentage of overall profit. If it didn't then the ROI may not be high enough to make selling it on that easy or at a higher price. 

So overall, I would be very surprised if the business failed to show any profit at all, the question is how much profit will it show. I don't expect there to be a 'failed retirement motel' scenario when it comes time to sell.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> project is looking better & better as you go along here
> 
> re the "residents' common area" which i referred to as a "community salon," isn't this merely a question of semantics
> 
> ...


Yes, the name is semantics but I was referring to your earlier comment of having to 'construct' it. It sounded to me like you envisioned some serious costs there. As the only 'construction' really is some partitions, that will not cost much at all.

Wifi will be provided throughout the property, not just in the common areas. 

There will be tables, chairs, sofas in the common areas sufficient to fill the areas without crowding or seeming empty.

TV service will be provided in each unit and I am ambiguous as to whether one will be provided in a part of the common area or not. I see people arguing over what channel to turn to on the one hand and the enjoyment of some in watching a sports event together and cheering their team. I am thinking of having the common area divided in two for that reason. A smaller area with a large screen TV and a larger area with tables etc. for other activities. 

Having participated is some similar investments in the past, I still have access to several people who could be interested in this idea. It is really a 'small investor' proposal, not one that would attract the big fish. Some of those I have known in the past, have moved on to big fish territory but a few are still doing small investments. No, I had no thoughts re CMF as a place find investors. I am quite confident that if I can get one or more of the investors I know on board, they will know where to find one or two more. If the Business Plan shows the numbers are there, I don't anticipate any problem finding the investors. 

As I have said, I have ideas for the restaurant based on what I see the local market as lacking. While I am happy to hear any suggestions from anyone here including Plugging Along if she is a 'foodie', it is difficult I think for anyone to make suggestions without knowing the local market. Many of the locals are 'country folk' who if I am being generous, don't really expect much beyond what they get in a 'family restaurant'. Let's call them traditional in their food tastes. At the same time there is a growing number of Boomers who are moving out of the cities into the area and they bring with them perhaps what we could call more sophisticated tastes in food. They like my wife and I, decry the lack of choice beyond the family type restaurants. We cannot find a restaurant we want to frequent that is closer than a 25 minute drive from here and we have looked, believe me.

So I envision a restaurant that will have to cater to both groups and that may not be easy to do. I don't know if I have mentioned it already on this thread but I had to explain to my local auto mechanic what panini was and what brie was. Imagine ciabatta and how to pronounce it vs. spell it. I'm not saying everyone local is that way but many are.

For example, imagine this simple sandwich item on a menu: A Ciabatta roll with Shaved country ham, red onion, brie, lettuce, tomato, pear slices and whole grain mustard mayo. I can imagine some locals saying, 'what's this crap?' On the other hand if it just said: Ham and cheese on a bun, they might order it and gain a new understanding of what ham and cheese on a bun could be. Maybe it should be on the menu both ways. LOL

I am expecting to only offer buffet breakfast. My understanding is that breakfast is the least profitable meal for a restaurant to serve. I see no point in trying to compete with the family restaurants for a $5.95 bacon and eggs breakfast. I would expect the restaurant staff to set up at the end of the day for the buffet breakfast and in the morning, perhaps even the manager himself would just lay out what the kitchen had prepared the night before. Lunch and dinner would be full table service and cooked to order. Again, I would look to the chef to guide me on how best to handle it all.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

GreatLaker said:


> It sounds something like a place my mom lived in. It is billed as a seniors residence or a senior community. More services provided than a basic condo or apartment, but less than assisted living. It originally was registered as a retirement home but they let that lapse, probably for the same reason you don't want a retirement home. It is an apartment block, marketed to seniors (but no lower age limit). I'm guessing it has around 50 units so bigger than your proposal. Most units are 1 bedroom with a few studios and 2-bedroom units. Units have a fridge, sink and a microwave shelf, but no stove. Food service is optional, with continental breakfast, and lunch & dinner served in a dining room prepared in an onsite kitchen. There's also a lounge area with coffee tables & lounge chairs where residents chat, have coffee, read, do jigsaw puzzles etc. Also has a common room with TV, card tables, kitchen, a media room/theatre, library area with bookshelves (donated books) and a couple of computers. There are a few organized activities like movie night, on-site entertainment once a seek, card games, etc. Occasional offsite shopping trips or other events organized by management. Unlike your proposal there's no room cleaning service, or laundry service.
> 
> There is no onsite medical or personal care funded by the management. Many residents get additional services. Some are contracted by the resident like laundry & cleaning. Some are government funded like personal support workers that visit daily (VON, Nurse Next Door etc.). Also there is an onsite nurse practitioner 2x/week (at least when the gov't approves a contract worker). A few activities get organized by residents, but they usually peter out after a while since it's hard to find common interests and the organizers usually get fed up with trying to run things.
> 
> ...


Yes, I don't know the pros(if there are any) vs. the cons of registering as a Retirement Home. I've yet to determine that.

I understand the reluctance to allow cooking in the room for obvious safety reasons. However, there are now one burner induction units which of course do not produce heat. https://inductionguide.com/can-induction-cooktops-cause-fire/
They are available at quite low prices and take up little space. https://www.lowes.ca/product/induct...RrCpalbVM0PIvLXBpmoaAiBMEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

My question would be what about venting the cooking odours? Would it need a dedicated kitchen range hood type vent or could you use a simple ceiling vent throughout the units.

It's interesting the property you are familiar with was mostly women. Either way though, I don't see any issues. The rooms will all be set up for a single occupant. Not because I would not want couples but simply based on size. I don't know the exact room sizes, I only have a vague memory of the room we rented being a fair size with a queen bed in it. Enough space for there also to be a table and a couple of chairs as well as a small kitchenette area. I know by considering a bedroom in our house that is 182 sq. ft. (13x14), that you could design all you need in that space, not including the bathroom.

I take your point about management and having things go up and down in terms of quality of services etc. That is why I would want to provide an incentive to the senior staff in terms of a percentage of profits. I do not want a turnover of those senior people and so would want to find the best possible people and pay them well.

Thanks for the input GreatLaker.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Having lost 6 siblings and two young family members over last eight years this is a conversation we both had many times.We are working together on a goal in next 2 years to get to where it is practical for both of us ,a home in Newfoundland for the great summer months currently in year 6 of renovations to make it completely accessible and comfortable for us and our current home in Ontario that either of us can live comfortable in based on financial ability but practical too as it was custom made 10 years ago to be fully wheelchair accessible. .We also have agreed neither of us will ever go into a nursing home and have provisions for care at home and the money to fund it.We currently pay about $30,000 a year in home care support for me and a housekeeper/landscaping so that is a cost we have been dealing with for 20 years.I consider it a blessing that we had to deal with these life changes at a young age the able bodied me would have been likely living in a house with loads of stairs and no rails lol.Money is the big thing if you have limited resources you tend to have to do big compromises with your happiness and needs.
My mom cries when she visits a nursing home and asks us to promise never to put her in one ,it is heartbreaking for us and I have told my parents I wont do winters in Newfoundland but we will spend 6 months there and they can come here with us for 6 months.Thank God at 80 and 81 they are independent can cook ,drive ,chop their firewood and have very active life and live a good life on about $29000 a year.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> We all differ of course AltaRed and as I have said I don't expect it to suit everyone. But I do believe it will suit enough to be viable. Ignoring your own capabilities and preferences, would you agree with that statement?
> 
> Even if I could do the cooking, cleaning and laundry, the gardening is actually one thing that would be enough alone to tell me I have to move. Plugging Along mentioned his father letting the garden 'grow over'. I could not stand to see that happen. The new owners might let it happen but I would not be there to see it.
> 
> ...


I replied without reading down to your post.My brother in law tried this about 15 years ago , invested $400,000 of his own money plus whatever he owes the bank and I think 24 units is what he had there.He wanted to cater to seniors but in end it is now just a rental for any age group and his suites rent for around $1700 a month.It is in an area where you can buy a small bungalow for around $200,000 but the draw he has is the community bus and he contracted a event planner who arranges once a month trips 'to the city' ,Tuesday Taco nights a room with shuffle boards ,card tables and a dining room that you can rent for $50 to host parties.It is not in Ontario but it sounds very similar idea ,keep open mind and let it evolve on it's own.Good luck if you decide to do this.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i have an unusual idea for the "restaurant" side of the enterprise. It means going off at an angle that i think is more woke for today's mobile younger population than a traditional sit-down eatery. I'm making bold enough to describe it here.

what gets my attention is the unusual fact that your motel restaurant kitchen was designed to feed 100 customers.

you say you'll divide the dining room ... but the kitchen itself will remain spacious, no? it might even still be partially equipped to feed 100 customers at a time.

i'm not smitten with the idea of trying to graft an upscale restaurant onto an old folks' home. I think the fine dining cognoscenti wiil avoid an old people's sit-down dining room, no matter how good the chef. IMHO the woke market is going to drive much further to find an authentic resto when they do go out for dinner.

meanwhile, though, there is a growing business in microwaveable home-cooked packaged meals that are sold not only in supermarkets but, these days, in corner convenience stores & gas station 7-11s.

these aren't yesterday's TV dinners. The cooking is much fresher & much healthier. It's the millennials & the Gen Zeds who are reportedly snapping these up, particularly the Gen Zeds who shop convenience stores at all hours of the night & day & who will buy an authentic healthy & delicious lunch or dinner as easily at 11 pm as at 11 am.

another big market for healthy cooked meals is office workers. The sales location needs to be a supermarket or convenience store - what we call the dep or depanneur in quebec - located near a high-rise office building complex, where a working parent can conveniently stop in right after the workshift to pick up fresh & healthy supper-to-go.

* * * * *

on other words, the business of your restaurant kitchen would be fresh, healthy, pre-cooked packaged meals. The 24 guests living in your motel suites would eat the same food served on plates in the new smaller sit-down dining room, of course; but the bulk of the cooking would be delivered as pre-packs to a supermarket and/or convenience 7/11s in town.

i'm thinking your residential motel will probably have its own van, so delivering the packaged meals should not be a problem.

* * * * *

it's possible to drift further here & mention that any decent chef these days is going to insist on his own fresh herb garden right outside the kitchen door. Drift a little further & one can even imagine a portion of Missus LTA's "massive" garden being given over to the cultivation of ultra-fresh organic vegetables destined for the commercial kitchen. Who knows, possibly some of the old-timer retiree residents could even be hired to work the veggie garden.

these are the markers that will drive an upscale cookery business for the younger mobile crowd: Fresh. Organic ingredients. Small batch home cooking. European & Asian fusion cuisine. Real meat & real fish are fine, but a few vegetarian or even vegan dishes should be included in the recipe repertoire.

even your name - Long Time Ago - might possibly serve as a theme for the business. It could suggest a throwback to grandma's 100% organic farm cooking. But you'd have to do a study of what folks in your surroundings really like to eat, when it comes to escaping cheap plastic fast food & substituting authentic healthy home-cooked meals.

.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

marina628 said:


> I have told my parents I wont do winters in Newfoundland but we will spend 6 months there and they can come here with us for 6 months.Thank God at 80 and 81 they are independent can cook ,drive ,chop their firewood and have very active life and live a good life on about $29000 a year.



canadian role models! big hugs to parents who age 80 chop own firewood & live good life on $29k a year


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Humble ,
My grandfather was able to do his own firewood until 95 , I have a uncle who is 85 still walks in woods with a ax and chops down tree.My Dad has a ATV and 33 acres so he drives on our property and cuts it down but he does all the work himself ,my mom fills the wheel barrel and brings it from the wood house inside which is likely 150 ft each way.They definitely would not fit in a old folks home lol
They have no debt at all except for small utilities and the property tax bills ,they eat well and live well.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> i have an unusual idea for the "restaurant" side of the enterprise. It means going off at an angle that i think is more woke for today's mobile younger population than a traditional sit-down eatery. I'm making bold enough to describe it here.
> 
> what gets my attention is the unusual fact that your motel restaurant kitchen was designed to feed 100 customers.
> 
> ...


The input is appreciated humble_pie. I understand what you are saying about quality packaged meals but the market you describe, millenials and Zeds is not here. This is farm country with some small pockets of manufacturing. There are no high rise office towers or any real number of office workers etc. There are as it happens two local 'home cooks' who package and sell such meals though. They sell primarily to retirees interestingly enough. The prime reason seems to be not only the convenience but the difficulty a single person (as many of these retirees are) of buying food for just one person in a supermarket. So while I would say there is a SMALL market for these meals, it is already being catered for.

The more research I am doing on the restaurant side, the more difficulty I see in making this side of it work. In fact, I am approaching the conclusion that it will be very difficult if not impossible to do so. The only market of any real size seems to be the 'traditional family restaurant' market and that is a market that is already being served. Trying to offer an alternative whether it is slightly more upmarket or better quality fresh food etc. may simply be trying to serve a market that does not exist in sufficient numbers in this area.

The alternative would be to forget about a restaurant entirely and just offer studios to live in and let the residents do their own cooking or go elsewhere to eat out. But I don't see that as an attractive alternative either. What would then be done with that big restaurant space? A gym, theatre, games room, etc. would just add overhead and result in increased rents which could start pricing it out of the target market or offering amenities the target market did not want to pay for. 

That big space is starting to look like 'an albatross around the neck' and may be something that makes the whole idea impractical. When it comes to delivering packaged meals to local supermarkets etc. I am reminded of the old saying, 'stick to your knitting'. In this case, the knitting is a place for retirees to live as singles but with others around them. I don't want to go into the supermarket food supplier business, they don't go together. 

You are offering suggestions on how to make the restaurant space work and I appreciate that but it is in fact suggesting going into ANOTHER business. I think it either has to work as a restaurant which fits with the retiree residence basic intent or it won't work at all.

Another alternative would be to have the restaurant open only to residents. In other words turn it into a 'dining room' rather than a 'restaurant. But with only 24 residents I don't see how it could make money on its own sales unless residency required meals to be included in the rent. In other words, force the residents to pay for 3 meals a day and that is contrary to my original idea of trying to keep the rents down and allow the residents the autonomy to decide where, how often and at what prices they choose to eat meals.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I think you need a super living on site plus at least 1 other full time person to keep up with house keeping .The restaurant will require multiple staff which will be a wash as far as making money.You could offer limited menu ,salad ,pastries ,Soups ,sandwiches but minute you open up the grill that is going to cost as least one additional full time staff member.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I outlined staff earlier marina628. No offense intended but if you don't read all the thread, you're gonna miss stuff.

One full time manager and one full time housekeeping/laundry person. Preferably a couple who will share those responsibilities and will live on-site in the existing 3 bedroom apartment that is located above one end of the building. One full time chef and one full time 'front of house' restaurant manager. Restaurant servers and kitchen staff beyond that would all be part timers as required.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I meant to say you need at least one other person over and above the person you included,you will not get 1 person to get laundry done for 24 units plus all cleaning.I recommend you speak to similar sized business to see their staffing size.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

marina628 said:


> Humble ,
> My grandfather was able to do his own firewood until 95 , I have a uncle who is 85 still walks in woods with a ax and chops down tree.My Dad has a ATV and 33 acres so he drives on our property and cuts it down but he does all the work himself ,my mom fills the wheel barrel and brings it from the wood house inside which is likely 150 ft each way.They definitely would not fit in a old folks home lol
> They have no debt at all except for small utilities and the property tax bills ,they eat well and live well.



great stuff !!

no old folks home for them, for sure


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

LTA you're right i was thinking of another business buckled onto the old folks residence but that's only because i happen to be interested in urban farming + ideas about organic food sharing ... you're certainly also right when you say this particular shoe doesn't fit your own foot.

so back to the motel, perhaps you could see if the other packaged home cooking enterprises in your district - the ones you mention - could cater to your residents. 

i like the idea of small communal dining room, i don't mean any antisocial idea of old age prisoners having to eating meals solitary in their rooms.

the outsourced meal business could deliver meal components in bulk (work that out with them somehow), then heat/warm/broil bulk quantities in your kitchen to finally plate & serve individually. Or for less staffing, you could make all meals buffet style, with the residents filling their own plates.

to be fair to outsourced meal business, residents would have to sign up for meal service at least a week in advance, probably longer.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Some random input as I am passing time:

For the laundry, it can be done quite efficiently. At my moms home, they have a system that everyone who has the monthly laundry service MUST purchase the labels with their unit number. All time are thrown in together and then sorted twice a week. A similar model could be used, altertively, at 24 units, with one load each that could done at 5 units a day which is pretty easy with part time staff.

The trickier part is the restaurant. I close off the space to be able to have maybe max fifty seating capacity for a little flexibility in configuration. I would have the other area divided out for the common room activities. TV, leisure area, people could social and have a coffee, tea or drink and gather. 

In my opinion the main restaurant/food has to be one of the key thought out features. If someone is coming here because they don’t want t cook for one, it has to offer enough variety while still maintaining their food preferences and having flexibility.

You have described your target market as most likely >
- single retirees who don’t want the maintenance or the hassle of cooking and basic house work (more likely the males)
- but still very independent 
- lower income, under $40k? Ish
- simpler tastes, ‘country folk’ as I read here

You need to focus on your main clientele demographic and and try to monetarize on them. I would offer a slightly more up scale version of family and comfort food. Not the greasy spoons, as when people get older they start to look at their health a little more seriously. Food that is made with fresh, high quality, healthy ingredients. 

To provide more flexibility, I would offer more ‘modularized’ cooking and preparation. I don’t know the real term it that’s how I run my house and my parents did their restaurant. I would have the options for my residents to choose their service model on similar foods. For the person who doesn’t want to pay the restaurant price and wants to do everything on their own, let them buy a small meal kit that they could modify and cook in their own kitchenette. Take the same ingredients and meal and have a completely take and bake (or microwave option). If they are creatures of habit or particularly enjoy certain meals, they could order two or three or four (but no more because the shelf life wouldn’t be long). For those who want complete hands off, they could come and joking you in the dining room. Three meal options for the same ingredients. On could even sell a small amount of the ingredients that will be used for the week if they want their own versions. Also, if the food is good enough, the visitors of residents would be inclined to eat there. Even in my moms home, you can let the staff know by a certain time that you are having the meal, they pay under $5 and everyone can have an extra long visit. This would be an extra nice option that families could make reservations for larger family gatherings and have it all there. 

I would kill the idea of a fine dining, as even the most distinguished tastes get sick of fine dining every night. Also, it doesn’t sounds like the clientele would have these tastes. One could have specifically menu items and test that out which would also allow to mix thing up a bit.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

marina628 said:


> I meant to say you need at least one other person over and above the person you included,you will not get 1 person to get laundry done for 24 units plus all cleaning.I recommend you speak to similar sized business to see their staffing size.


With 24 units to clean once a week marina628 I think one full time person will be able to handle that and the laundry. The person will have 5 full days per week to do it don't forget. It will only require doing 4-5 units per day. Think of it as having to clean a house with 4-5 rooms and the laundry for 4-5 people. That's just equivalent to cleaning a family house and doing the family laundry. That happens in houses every Saturday or Sunday in Canada.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> LTA you're right i was thinking of another business buckled onto the old folks residence but that's only because i happen to be interested in urban farming + ideas about organic food sharing ... you're certainly also right when you say this particular shoe doesn't fit your own foot.
> 
> so back to the motel, perhaps you could see if the other packaged home cooking enterprises in your district - the ones you mention - could cater to your residents.
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying but I don't like the idea very much. First, it would limit the menu choice that can be offered each day. There are only so many pre-packaged meal choices that a third party will offer. If you look at 'Meals on Wheels' as an example, a common complaint of those using such a service is the limited choice. They don't like half the choices offered and quickly tire of the other half. Such services do not tend to change their menu very often.

Next, the cost will go up since you have to pay the supplier for their labour as well as the ingredient cost and then you have to pay a staff member to prepare the meals. Then you have to add your profit on top of that. That puts the price to the resident up per meal. 

Finally, it will not really add that much to the overall value of the business because it only adds meals for residents and not the public. Catering to the public could easily more than double the sales. That increase in overall income translates to an increase in the value of the business overall. For example, you could end up with a property worth $2 mil plus a business worth $1 mil for a total of $3 mil overall. Decrease the restaurant sales from say $400k to $200k and that $200k difference in sales could result in a difference of $500k in overall value.

The restaurant adding to sales and therefore the overall value of the business as a whole is critical to what you can expect to realize in profit when you exit. So from my perspective, your dog won't hunt.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Some random input as I am passing time:
> 
> For the laundry, it can be done quite efficiently. At my moms home, they have a system that everyone who has the monthly laundry service MUST purchase the labels with their unit number. All time are thrown in together and then sorted twice a week. A similar model could be used, altertively, at 24 units, with one load each that could done at 5 units a day which is pretty easy with part time staff.
> 
> ...


I do NOT see the residents as the main focus of the restaurant Plugging Along. If the intent is to offer them the option of eating in the restaurant as part of maintaining their independence, which it is, then they are not going to buy enough meals to make the restaurant profitable to any real degree. The restaurant therefore has to in my opinion depend on the public choosing to eat there as well.

I would want the restaurant to offer menu choices that do cater to the residents but also offer choices that cater to the public. It has to serve both. The problem is as I have said above, how to get the public to come and eat there. That question is becoming more and more obvious to me as a problem.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I haven't been thinking of 'fine dining' at all, at least not what I would consider fine dining. I've only been thinking of there being a choice of menu items SOME of which would be a bit 'upmarket' vs. the typical family style restaurant. The example I gave earlier of ham and cheese on a bun is I think a good one. You can easily offer an 'upmarket' ham and cheese on a bun vs. what it would be in a family restaurant and with little ingredient cost difference.

Think of any menu item you wish and I don't think it is difficult to figure out how to make it stand out from the competition if you want it to. Product 'differentiation' is what any business wants to do if they are not going to have to compete on price alone. In other words, why will you go to one restaurant vs. another for a grilled cheese sandwich if they all are offering you the same thing. You might as well just go to the closest to your home.

As an example, you may have seen something on TV's Shark Tank about a company called Tom & Chee. They started out with on of those pop up tent roofs, selling tomato soup and grilled cheese sandwiches at events. All they sold was those 2 items but they were DIFFERENT from your average tomato soup or grilled cheese sandwich you would get at any family restaurant. That turned into a multi-million dollar franchise business. https://www.tomandchee.com/

When I think about your average restaurant in Canada and particularly in small towns, they really are all much the same and to a degree, are insulting to the Canadian public in what they continue to offer. As a business model, their basic premise seems to be, make it as cheaply as you can get away with and compete on price alone, along with hae the same menu as was offered in the 1960s. If you live in a city you may not be as aware of this as someone living in a small town. In a city you literally have thousands of restaurants offering you all kinds of different dining experiences. But in smaller towns perhaps 90% or even 100% of your choices are all much the same family style restaurants, burger joints or chains like MickeyD's or Timmy's.

I say it is insulting because people in small towns are just as able to enjoy better quality food if it were offered to them, but it generally isn't. Where it is, you then have to fight inertia. People don't like change, that's human nature and I do think if you described a ham and cheese on a bun as I did in an earlier post (shaved country ham, brie, pear slices, sun dried tomatoes, on ciabatta), you would get people saying, 'what the heck is this crap?' So they could appreciate the difference if they tried it but you have to get them to try it first. The local idea of an 'upmarket' grilled cheese sandwich is to use marble rye bread and still use a slice of Kraft processed cheese.

Yesterday we drove to a Bakery/Restaurant that has been open for less than a year. They started out opening only a couple of days a week as a bakery only. Then they started offering a sit down lunch menu from their bakery products. They are now open 5 days a week and certainly appear to be doing good business on both aspects. They only offer a couple of items on their lunch menu and it varies dependent it would seem almost on a whim on the owners part. One type of soup, one salad and one type of sandwich, take it or leave it. Yesterday, I had what was on the blackboard as a 'Chicken Club Sandwich.' Simple enough name.

What I got was in fact miles away from what I would have got across the street in the local family restaurant. The chicken was two slices of chicken breast supplied from a local chicken farm and roasted that morning. The back bacon came from a local farm as well as the tomatoes and romaine lettuce. The cheese was a local 'artisan' white cheddar and the bread was a portion of one of the bakery's own focaccia bread. I think even the mayo was home made. No sliced package meat, no packaged fatty, Maple Leaf bacon, no Kraft processed cheese slices, no usual white 'pap' bread. 

I doubt there was much difference in the cost of producing that sandwich than there would be in producing the one across the street. Ingredients are in fact not the main cost in any restaurant item. It is the labour and fixed costs that make up the vast majority of the overall costs in a restaurant after all. Given the number of diners I have seen each time on our visits there which now number a dozen or so visits, I would say they are turning over at least 20 lunches per day at an average of $12-15 each. That's not bad for a bakery with only a dozen or so seats. 

I do notice though that they always describe what is on offer very simply. Club Sandwich, no fancy list of ingredients on show. It's what you get that differs, not the name. Smart marketing for their market region in my opinion. It is that kind of thinking that I think might work for a new restaurant in this venture I am considering. But I still find I am up and down on how likely I think the restaurant is to succeed here.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> I do NOT see the residents as the main focus of the restaurant Plugging Along. If the intent is to offer them the option of eating in the restaurant as part of maintaining their independence, which it is, then they are not going to buy enough meals to make the restaurant profitable to any real degree. The restaurant therefore has to in my opinion depend on the public choosing to eat there as well.
> 
> I would want the restaurant to offer menu choices that do cater to the residents but also offer choices that cater to the public. It has to serve both. _ The problem is as I have said above, how to get the public to come and eat there. _ That question is becoming more and more obvious to me as a problem.



please excuse my embolden above. But i don't believe any part of the public is ever going to come & eat at a seniors' residence by choice. The atmosphere is wrong.

look at your new little bakery in town, the one that's started serving simple lunches. How is the atmosphere? i bet it's wholesome, country, upbeat. It'll fly.

it's only my belief, but i remain convinced that a restaurant designed for the public can never be grafted onto a seniors' residential complex. Here's a story that illustrates public reaction to this ill-suited combo:

a few years ago i attended a weekend yoga retreat on an island in the st-lawrence river that's located slightly southwest of montreal city.

the island had belonged to a famous nursing order of nuns. For nearly 3 centuries they had used the island as their farm, growing all the food their large hospital community & its patients could eat.

gradually the farming stopped & the nuns disappeared. The order gifted most of the island to the gummint of quebec, which turned it into a wilderness preserve. Some organism turned the nuns' residence, with its outbuildings, chapel, swimming pool & spacious gardens on the southwestern tip of the island, into an old folks' home serving hundreds.

officially, the building rented itself out as a retreat center. It was well set up for this. A beautiful, pastoral country setting. The building had more than 100 bedrooms on the 2nd floor, which once upon a time had been cells for the nuns. Building also had a kitchen & dining room equipped to easily feed retreats of 100 persons or more.

so far, so good. We arrived saturday morning, we yoga'd, we meditated, we hiked the circular paths through the big wilderness reserve, we admired the ancient masonry fortified windmill which still subsisted from its days when the island had been une grande seigneurie granted by the king of faraway france to the first seigneur settler (this was prior to acquisition by the nuns)

we also asked the management What was on the 3rd & 4th floors of the building? since the retreat & its bedrooms occupied the ground & 2nd floors only.

with almost undue haste, management replied that there was Nothing Up There. But we thought we detected better. A few times, in the elevators, we found workers wheeling gigantic hot meals carts to upstairs floors. Those institutional kinds of carts where heated dinner plates are covered with stainless steel domes. Carts that jingle & rattle as the workers push them along.

on sunday, checkout time was early. The yoga practitioners & teachers all left. But a friend & i stayed over a couple hours, in order to hike the wilderness park once again. When we returned to the retreat centre, we found dozens of frail very elderly people had come outside, to sit on the numerous benches in the warm late afternoon summer sunshine.

so that was how they did it. In reality the place was a nursing home. On weekends, when a retreat was booked, they banished the elderly inhabitants to their 3rd & 4th floor bedrooms, feeding them w meals delivered on carts. The exile only lasted 28 hours. from 10 am on saturday to 2 pm on sunday. 

my friend was a lapsed RC who had attended a catholic girls' convent school throughout her childhood & teen years. On our last "outlaw" sunday afternoon, we passed through the former convent's apple orchard as we came back from the wilderness hike. In the orchard, we encountered a senior nun from the building management.

with a furious glare, the black-robed nun ordered us not to steal any apples from the orchard. We explained that we'd been part of the yoga retreat who'd booked the building for the weekend, we wouldn't dream of touching a single cortland or a single mcIntosh, certainly not without permission ...

the superior's stern expression softened just a crack. She permitted herself what might have passed for the beginning of a smile. Je vous en prie, she said, sailing grandly on in the opposite direction.

my friend - the lapsed RC w the convent school upbringing - began giggling uncontrollably. OMG childhood memories die so hard, I really had to stop myself from genuflecting, she said to me.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

When you say "rural, small town", just how small are we talking? Are you expecting your clients to be from the surrounding area, or from larger cities further away? Have you considered what medical facilities are available in the vicinity like hospitals, & clinics? I know we healthy seniors think we're invincible, but in reality, not so much. It's hard enough to get a PCP these days, so I would be very reluctant to uproot and move to the boonies, and find there's no doctors within miles accepting new patients.

I think I might have an idea where this place is. I won't say, because you haven't said... but is the restaurant in the middle, with the motel rooms as "wings" on either side? There's a larger 2 storey attached building on the right side for the office and manager's apartment. The place I'm thinking has an indoor pool, so probably not the place you described.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> I do NOT see the residents as the main focus of the restaurant Plugging Along. If the intent is to offer them the option of eating in the restaurant as part of maintaining their independence, which it is, then they are not going to buy enough meals to make the restaurant profitable to any real degree. The restaurant therefore has to in my opinion depend on the public choosing to eat there as well.
> 
> I would want the restaurant to offer menu choices that do cater to the residents but also offer choices that cater to the public. It has to serve both. The problem is as I have said above, how to get the public to come and eat there. That question is becoming more and more obvious to me as a problem.


I had been focusing on the residents. I still see little draw for them for your concept, but that is another topic.

In terms of the drawing in the public, can you describe the target patrons? How many people are in this town? What are their tastes like? Is the area touristy or do you only expect the locals? What is demographic of the locals? I couldn’t imagine a young person wanting to go where all the old people are.

I know at my vacation property which is in a SMALL town (700 people]. Plus my family we are there. Has had a lot of problems with any restaurant that has opened en. I haven’t seen one last a a whole season in the last 15 years. I am guessing your town is not that small. Place is near a touristy place where there are lots of other restaurants as there is tones of visitors from the large city (many own cabins like we do). 

The restaurants that have been successful have great simple food. Fresh artisan bread baked on site with your choice of fillings many locally sourced for sandwiches. Usually two homemade soups, and then one entree. There are limited quantities of each so the locals get there early in order to not miss out. Very similar to your club house sandwich. 

Think Seinfeld’s Soup Nazi. His food was great, simple, and once it was gone it’s gone


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> I had been focusing on the residents. I still see little draw for them for your concept, but that is another topic.




Plugging the reason i'm interested in this project is that i've always been profoundly interested in healthy nutrition for canadians from neonatal clear through to old age & i'm also interested in safe wholesome housing for canadians throughout their lifespan.

now qualify those 2 above to include the word "affordable" & right away you've got the mega challenge. All of our citizens deserve healthy food & housing throughout all of their lives; but increasingly only the rich can obtain these.

how to look after middle & low income seniors without packing them into living warehouse mausoleums?

i'm interested in LTA's model because - although he's working on a profitable business model - nevertheless he does appear to have a genuine desire to build a healthy, wholesome & dignified environment for the human beings whose ultimate care will depend upon the quality of the business operation.

there are all kinds of faith groups & community organizations who could work off LTA's model, if he could find ways to make his business plan work. Senior housing for middle/low income citizens is an urgent need across canada. IMHO we need to encourage & support innovators in this zone ... everywhere across canada.

moving on, i think Plug is correct when she says that young people won't flock to a restaurant for old people. No matter how succulent the slice of broiled pear upon the fresh brie smeared upon the olive focaccia, the general public is not going to descend _en très grand nombre_ upon an old folks' home that manages to serve this sandwich.

this means that the cavernous restaurant here - built to serve 100 dining customers, we are told - is a kind of white albatross upon the emerging new business. What to do with this albatross space?

me i had thought that if the diners won't come to the restaurant, then the restaurant could cook & pack & deliver the meals to the diners in nearby cities. But evidently at first glance, that idea is not going to fly.

LTA, what about some radical construction on the main floor of the motel? shrink the physical kitchen to an operation that serves 20-30 maximum per day, even utilizes some outside catering. Shrink the dining room. In addition to a community meetup room & possibly a smaller TV room, could enough space be freed up or added on to build one or 2 suites for couple residents? check to see if the ratio is ballpark though: about one couple for every 10-20 single residents.

are there any gummint initiatives that lend money to or financially support the construction or renovation of low income senior housing?

PS marina's suggestion of a free-lance event planner was an excellent idea imho. Maybe the TV room could serve for movie fridays. Get movies for free from the local library, or they're cheap to rent. There are other low-cost activities an event planner could coordinate.

.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I have now reached the point where I recognize a few things.

I am confident of being able to attract enough residents and in fact expect it would have a waiting list.
I am confident enough of the initial ballpark numbers on the cost of renovations.
I now know that I do not know enough about the restaurant business to be able to determine whether or not it would work or not. I need to consult some kind of restaurant business professional consultant to determine that. I've taken my thinking on it as far as I can go.
I know that without having an answer to the restaurant question, I cannot put together a completed business plan to sell to investors. 

So at this point, I have hit a bump in the road that has to be dealt with before I can proceed any farther. There are professional restaurant consulting firms and choosing one of them will be the next step.

Humble_pie, I do acknowledge your point re whether the public would frequent a restaurant that is attached to a Seniors Residence. You may be right about that, but I don't know if you are or are not. In rebuttal I would say that it won't particularly look like a Seniors Residence, there will be no big sign out front saying, 'Seniors Residence', there will be a sign out front that says, 'X Restaurant', so at first glance at least, there will be nothing to discourage someone pulling in to check out the restaurant.

Walking in the door, you would not see dozens of 'old people' in front of you. Those in the residents only areas, you would not see at all and those who might be in the restaurant at the same time as you arrive will not number many at any given time I would think. As part of the residents being able to maintain their independence, they will use the restaurant when they want, there won't be any 'at 12.15, all all residents choosing to have lunch in the restaurant are to be seated' kind of thing. It will appear at least to just be an 'ordinary' restaurant like any other and will operate as such.

Userkare, I would expect to attract residents from around a 100km area. I expect that because it will be one of few places in its price range. That area includes a couple of cities as well as many small towns. I do not think the shortage of availability at the lower end of the price range can be overemphasized. In other words, there are more people than places. 

There is no shortage of facilities that seniors would need/want in the area. Not walking distance but easily within reasonable driving distance. Doctors, dentists, hospitals, clinics, pharmacies, etc. are all available. My own Family Doctor recently left to go elsewhere and I had a new family doctor lined up even before she left. There is a shortage of Family Doctors just like everywhere in Canada but I think in some ways, it is easier to find one in less densely populated areas than in cities. I used to drive 5 minutes to my Family Doctor and do now have to drive 25 minutes. So for me it was a negative in that regard but I think there are a lot of people of any age who would be more than happy to do so because they can't find one at all. Remember, I am thinking of a place for 'Independent Seniors' to live ONLY. If they are not able to drive, it will not suit them. I think that limitation will not be a problem, there will still be more than enough people it will suit.

I am not going to say anything more about the location specifics for various reasons. So as they say, 'I can neither confirm nor deny your comment' on that.

Plugging Along, I am not going to comment any more on the restaurant aspect of this. I think I have covered as much as I can already including who the target demographics for the restaurant would be. 

Humble_pie, I am indeed looking at this from two perspectives. First, in order to make it work, it has to be a profitable business model if you want to attract private investors. It could be something a church or charity group would want to look at without having to make a 'real' profit of course but I always consider the idea of 'non-profit' as a bit of misdirection. Generally speaking, even a non-profit has to make enough profit to be self-sustaining. Not many charities can afford to fund something year after year at a loss. If you know some church or charity groups that might be interested in the basic idea I have outlined, feel free to share with them. There is nothing proprietary or secret about it at all.

It is a pretty basic idea. Find a property that lends itself to conversion and can be bought at a low price because it is a failed business. There is no shortage of those around. Find the money to renovate. End up with a property that can be rented in units at a reasonable cost. Staff it with the right people and have it at least self-supporting. That''s it. I would say that for a charity or church group, the problem will be when they start wanting to offer too many ammenities rather than keeping their eye focused on the ball which is as you have identified, affordability. Fix the price and then put in what amenities it will allow, not the other way around. For example, an 'event planner' adds cost, 'can it be afforded', not 'would it be good to have' has to be the question asked and answered. 

My second perspective is indeed to offer an affordable place to live with a reasonable quality of life while living there. I asked myself the question of what would I do if my spouse dies before I do and I am still physically and mentally able to live independently. I know I would not want to continue living in our current home with all the current work that it would involve. Not least for me would be cooking, cleaning and laundry. I'm old school and not ashamed to admit it. So something like I am looking at here, would suit me quite well if I could not afford one of the '5 Star Retirement Resorts' that seem to be proliferating while lower cost options are not.

Asking myself the question and then after looking at what seems to be available just naturally led me to asking where do those who cannot afford $6k per month go? At the same time, seeing this property languishing kind of led to a natural 2+2 equals 4.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> Plugging the reason i'm interested in this project is that i've always been profoundly interested in healthy nutrition for canadians from neonatal clear through to old age & i'm also interested in safe wholesome housing for canadians throughout their lifespan.
> 
> now qualify those 2 above to include the word "affordable" & right away you've got the mega challenge. All of our citizens deserve healthy food & housing throughout all of their lives; but increasingly only the rich can obtain these.
> 
> ...


From LTA


> Asking myself the question and then after looking at what seems to be available just naturally led me to asking where do those who cannot afford $6k per month go? At the same time, seeing this property languishing kind of led to a natural 2+2 equals 4.


I agree with you too. It has been so eye opening for me over the last 3 years looking for care for my mother and thinking about options in the future for my father. In my province, there is definitely decent care for the very low income and very high income. The middle or lower income like my parents there is such a void of affordable decent options. I research over 100 facilities within my city. When I finally found one that met my fathers criteria (he is quite picky but not unreasonable), we had a sticker shock of $5k a month (not including the cost of my moms care) My dad actually responded that he would like to wait 2-4 more years before going into the option. When asked why, his response was even if he liquidated all of his asset in his 80's, he was worried that he would only be able to live there for 10 years as that's when his money may run out. We assured that if that's where he wanted to live we would all pay for any short fall. This really had me thinking that we are so fortunate that we are willing and more than able to help our parents but so many others are not in that position. 

I do appreciate that LTA has an business idea that would help others in this situation. How difficult it would be to think that in your golden or last years that you have to constantly balance between outliving your money or choosing a low standard of living.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Plugging isn't your dad sweet, worrying in his 80s that if he goes into the sticker shock home his funds might run out in 10 years, meanwhile there's his ailing wife to support in another care establishment ...

your situation is unusual - far better than average - because of the strength of your family clan & particularly the leadership of the clan matriarch, namely yourself! but we should keep in mind that many folks won't have these kinds of supports, so as a country we should encourage alternative arrangements that look promising imho.

me i think there's a future in repurposing older buildings to house low & middle income seniors, which is what LTA is doing. Another feature i like about LTA's plan is that it's so small scale, barely beyond the size of a large extended family. I think it could be possible to encourage a cooperative community among 24 persons. LTA's residential group will be large enough & flexible enough (residents are mobile so new arrivals & some departures will always be occurring) that a stagnant little *****-clique hopefully won't root itself among the residents.

faith groups & community groups are into the repurposing older buildings idea but LTA's contribution is to work the project strictly from a business approach. This is crucial because a long-term business plan is the only way a tiny community of aging seniors can survive. Parts of LTA's business plan (when/if he arrives at it) would also be highly portable, i would think. In fact if LTA succeeds with this first pilot project, there's no reason why he couldn't expand his enterprise & build many more such projects.

* * * * *

everything depends on finding a low-cost repurposable building to start out with, no? Some, as in LTA's case, will be in the country, although not in high-tourist or fashionable cottage country zones. Other properties can be deep inside cities, as old warehouses, old factories & old worker row housing in older sections of eastern cities.

it's true that all the picturesque antique factory neighbourhoods in cities have already been gentrified & glamourized by yuppies moving into designer lofts, but there are still abandoned cheap zones that nobody in his right mind would consider to be chic. Western ville laSalle on montreal island for example looks almost like a post-war bombed-out district. Some older buildings have had to be demolished (too dilapidated i guess) while others are barely hanging on. Because of the original light industry there's a generalized brownfield problem, ie most of the soil is contaminated, although it can be cleaned up. 

what i saw when driving through west laSalle a few years ago was good but neglected land, close to the revitalized & de-toxxed st lawrence river waterfront, close to main highways & good transportation, with hospitals nearby, just waiting to be re-invented. The surviving buildings looked immediate post-WW II. Solid masonry. Certainly salvageable. Buildings were better built back in the day.

there are probably similar districts in many old ontario, quebec & maritime towns.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Having hit this first bump in the road, I am now considering two more 'bumps' in the road that it has led me to think of.

I'm now at the point where I am going to have to consider how much of my time this will take up. Earlier a poster asked why take this on if you are retired and don't need to make more money. My response was that I saw it not as work but as fun to do basically. Another reason I could have given was that it would be a kind of 'last hurrah' in that I would get the enjoyment of accomplishing one last venture. I did not have any altruistic thoughts when I started but now humble_pie has pointed out that it would also be a 'good deed' in providing a home to some seniors who could appreciate it. 

But time is a commodity of which I have a limited amount like everyone else obviously and the question is how much of my time would I be willing to give to this from this point on. It isn't about money, it is about time spent on this vs. that time being spent elsewhere such as travelling. I also have to consider that my wife will also be affected. She can't be in the Swiss Alps hiking if I am not available to go with her.

If this has a planned 2 year to exit strategy, some of my time will obviously have to be spent throughout that period. An initial intense amount of time will be required up until the business opens and then a much reduced amount of time until the exit strategy is implemented. I think realistically, at least 3 months pretty much full time until opening at least and then perhaps a few days per month thereafter. That's a lot of time not available to use in any other way.

I'm also now thinking of what happens after we exit. Thanks to humble_pie having pricked my conscience (or no thanks), what happens to the residents after we exit? A new owner is almost guaranteed to raise rents in order to service the larger debt that will exist on the property after having paid us a profit on our investment. The new owner is going to want to start getting the money back out of the property as quickly as possible as well as maintain the ongoing profits of the business. 

See what you've done now humble_pie. Now instead of just feeling responsible to the investors to make them money, you've added responsibility to the residents into the equation. Residents who were offered a place to live they could afford while they remained physically able could see themselves 'priced out' by the new owner just when they were getting settled in for the longer term. If that happened, I'd have that on my conscience to deal with. Thanks a lot humble_pie. LOL

From that aspect of it, what makes sense is that it be undertaken on the basis of a long term commitment and that is not what I was thinking of at all. It is perhaps an idea best suited to a charity or church group etc. to undertake as they would not be looking for an early exit. There is no way though that I would want to get involved in making that happen. I can envision the multiple opinions etc. that such groups would have and they are very unlike what a few investors who want no input at all really other than putting the money in would have. Far harder to deal with for me in other words and that assumes I could find such a group which I have no experience in doing.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> faith groups & community groups are into the repurposing older buildings idea but LTA's contribution is to work the project strictly from a business approach. This is crucial because a long-term business plan is the only way a tiny community of aging seniors can survive. Parts of LTA's business plan (when/if he arrives at it) would also be highly portable, i would think. In fact if LTA succeeds with this first pilot project, there's no reason why he couldn't expand his enterprise & build many more such projects.


There is the rub again, 'long term'. My plan is not long term at all but I do think it would probably have to be, to work for the residents in keeping it affordable long term, unless a buyer(s) could be found who were focused on maintaining it as what it was originally designed to do, ie. affordable to lower income single seniors, rather than focusing on making more profit. Needs a philanthropist who wants to provide an affordable home for seniors for the long term and just needs it to break even.

Anybody got one in their back pocket? I don't.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

That could be challenging.

The retirement home my parents were in was fine while it was a family owned business. When a retirement group headquartered in Montreal bough the place, staff disappeared almost overnight, services such as repairs or medication took a lot longer and rates rose.


Cheers


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> Having hit this first bump in the road, I am now considering two more 'bumps' in the road that it has led me to think of.
> 
> I'm now at the point where I am going to have to consider how much of my time this will take up. Earlier a poster asked why take this on if you are retired and don't need to make more money. My response was that I saw it not as work but as fun to do basically. Another reason I could have given was that it would be a kind of 'last hurrah' in that I would get the enjoyment of accomplishing one last venture. I did not have any altruistic thoughts when I started but now humble_pie has pointed out that it would also be a 'good deed' in providing a home to some seniors who could appreciate it.
> 
> ...




hmmmn i will have to give some thought to what to say next .each:

here i'd assumed you were setting up a new career for yourself as the czar of successful small-scale residences for middle-income retirees. I was thinking that local motel was the pilot project but after that you'd just sail on, grandly acquiring property after property in all kinds of small towns & setting em up to survive on their own & flipping out of each one after a few years & ending up with the Order of Canada for having re-invented old age.

seriously, wouldn't part of your development network be getting in touch w social work & housing authorities all over ontario? not to speak of networking politicians from the getgo plus the media if & when such a plan would materialize, which would be when the initial investors lock down. It's too good of an idea to keep under wraps.

of course you might not like the bureaucracy which greater public scrutiny might bring. Still, i can't think of any other way to attract gummint seed money for the ultimate buyer of the project.

btw there are nano senior housing projects slightly along your lines. Nearly always groups of senior women, nearly always fewer than 8 or 10. Buy large house in smallish ontario town. Get municipal permission if necessary. Adapt house slightly. Grow a lot of own food in organic veggie garden in spacious backyard. Costs are not exorbitant.

turning again to LTA Repurposed Motel, i suspect you may have been harbouring a hope that a revamped restaurant would magically pave the way to eternal riches.

.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eclectic12 said:


> That could be challenging.
> 
> The retirement home my parents were in was fine while it was a family owned business. When a retirement group headquartered in Montreal bough the place, staff disappeared almost overnight, services such as repairs or medication took a lot longer and rates rose.
> 
> ...


Good example Eclectic12 and all quite predictable isn't it. Whenever a business is taken over by another entity, you can expect changes.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> hmmmn i will have to give some thought to what to say next .each:
> 
> here i'd assumed you were setting up a new career for yourself as the czar of successful small-scale residences for middle-income retirees. I was thinking that local motel was the pilot project but after that you'd just sail on, grandly acquiring property after property in all kinds of small towns & setting em up to survive on their own & flipping out of each one after a few years & ending up with the Order of Canada for having re-invented old age.
> 
> ...


Well if you are serious about what you write about my setting up a new career, you seem to have missed a couple of salient points. 

This started simply as my seeing a business opportunity. A poorly served market and a property that could be easily adapted to meet that market need while at the same time providing investors a relatively quick (2 years) return on their initial cash investment of 100-200% plus on exit. There were no altruistic thoughts involved in it at all. 

I have seen quite a few opportunities in the 30 years since I retired. Most I have let go by and a few I have acted on but only for a limited period of time that ended when it was no longer fun for me to do. What happened after I ended my involvement was not my concern, it was purely 'business' in that sense. Given that I am now in my 70s, I have no interest in starting a 'new career'. It's a bit late for that. So this opportunity is only of interest to me as a short term, one of venture and I'm even questioning whether investing my time in it is a good idea or not as I have said.

There is no way I would want any kind of involvement with government, charities, etc. of any kind, regardless of whether it might attract some 'seed money' etc. Dealing with a couple of investors who just want to stand back and let me drive it, suits me as I am an all or nothing type of person when it comes to investing. Either I drive it without interference OR I am one of the investors who puts in some money and then stands back and lets someone else drive it. I am not a 'team player'. I can't imagine anything worse than sitting in a meeting with half a dozen or more people from a church or charity group who all want to put their 2 cents worth in before anything can get done. 

The only reason I see the restaurant as having to be included at all is to meet one of the basic market needs of the identified market. I see providing housecleaning, laundry and meals as the 3 basic needs that have to be met. Those are the 3 things that I as one of the 'old school' type of male retiree that is the target market, would want to have available so that I did not have to do them myself. If I thought it would work without a restaurant being provided at all, it would actually be easier. But I also see the meals as having to be optional, not mandatory. That allows the residents to maintain their independence in that regard. Today I eat 'in house' and tomorrow I eat elsewhere if I wish. The restaurant would not be financially viable at all if it only served the 24 residents, some of the time, so you have to bring the public in as well.

I as an 'old school' type of male retiree, would want to maintain my independence to as great a degree as possible while 'off-loading' the things I do not want to do myself. That's ALL I would want from this type of a seniors residence. When someone talks about things beyond that like an event planner etc. I am not interested. I do not need or want someone to arrange things for me to do. I just want out of what I want out of doing, I do not want IN anything if you see what I mean. Without meaning to be rude or anything, I don't need 'do-gooders' to start trying to organize my life for me or decide what extra amenities a place should offer me. Give me what I want, not what you think I should want. That is why I would never want to work with a church group or charity. You just know they are going to start trying to 'make the residents lives better'. Sorry for the rant.

This idea is now dead for me. Now that I have been led to realize what is likely to happen after the exit of the original investors, I have enough morality to not want to put the residents in the position it would most likely put them in after exit. I don't want to be the person who left people like Eclectic12's parents in the position they were subjected to.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

As a counterpoint, the place my mom was in that I mentioned in post # 59 was well run when first opened, then the owner (a local architect that specialized in redvitalizing older buildings) seemed to take on too many projects and could not effectively manage all of them, so the building management and maintenance suffered. Staff regularly were laid off when they got to a certain level of seniority. Support like cleaning and security were diminished. At some point the owner was reportedly beset by health problems

They needed more revenue, so a new management company was hired, that specialized in facilities for seniors. The original owner retained a stake, but was no longer managing it. The building was different from LTA's proposal. It was an old hospital that was converted to seniors' apartments. It was a good fit because it had wide doors and corridors, large main floor for common and dining spaces and easy accessibility. The main floor was split into a seniors' side that needed a fob for access, and a public side that was open during business hours. The public side rented space to a nurse-practitioner clinic, and some office space for small businesses. They also opened a café, staffed by the senior residence kitchen staff. The restaurant may have 30 seats, and caters to residents that don't take the meal plan, residents on the meal plan that want a coffee or snack with visitors, and people from local businesses (there is a drug store nearby, some medical clinics, small retail, a church etc.). So it caters to a specific local clientele and brings in extra revenue. They also have a private dining room that residents can take their meal service if they have guests (Mom would invite family and friends there for a few occasions). 

It was sad that the original owner had health issues, but the new management company improved things and brought the place back to its original vision and more, because they have more experience and depth.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> I as an 'old school' type of male retiree, would want to maintain my independence to as great a degree as possible while 'off-loading' the things I do not want to do myself. That's ALL I would want from this type of a seniors residence. When someone talks about things beyond that like an event planner etc. I am not interested. I do not need or want someone to arrange things for me to do. I just want out of what I want out of doing, I do not want IN anything if you see what I mean. Without meaning to be rude or anything, I don't need 'do-gooders' to start trying to organize my life for me or decide what extra amenities a place should offer me. Give me what I want, not what you think I should want. That is why I would never want to work with a church group or charity. You just know they are going to start trying to 'make the residents lives better'. Sorry for the rant.
> 
> This idea is now dead for me. Now that I have been led to realize what is likely to happen after the exit of the original investors, I have enough morality to not want to put the residents in the position it would most likely put them in after exit. I don't want to be the person who left people like Eclectic12's parents in the position they were subjected to.


That's pretty much how I feel about being in a senior's residence of any kind. I would rather be alone than to have people trying to push me into doing things I don't really care anything about. I'm not so much 'old school' though; I won't mind doing house chores like cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. I did all those things before I got married at 31 y/o. 

Now, I am realistic enough to understand that I'm not going to be climbing any ladders with a running chainsaw in the not too distant future, so I would hire someone to do that kind of thing. 

So, since the idea is 'dead', can I say where I guess this place might be?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

GreatLaker said:


> As a counterpoint, the place my mom was in that I mentioned in post # 59 was well run when first opened, then the owner (a local architect that specialized in redvitalizing older buildings) seemed to take on too many projects and could not effectively manage all of them, so the building management and maintenance suffered. Staff regularly were laid off when they got to a certain level of seniority. Support like cleaning and security were diminished. At some point the owner was reportedly beset by health problems
> 
> They needed more revenue, so a new management company was hired, that specialized in facilities for seniors. The original owner retained a stake, but was no longer managing it. The building was different from LTA's proposal. It was an old hospital that was converted to seniors' apartments. It was a good fit because it had wide doors and corridors, large main floor for common and dining spaces and easy accessibility. The main floor was split into a seniors' side that needed a fob for access, and a public side that was open during business hours. The public side rented space to a nurse-practitioner clinic, and some office space for small businesses. They also opened a café, staffed by the senior residence kitchen staff. The restaurant may have 30 seats, and caters to residents that don't take the meal plan, residents on the meal plan that want a coffee or snack with visitors, and people from local businesses (there is a drug store nearby, some medical clinics, small retail, a church etc.). So it caters to a specific local clientele and brings in extra revenue. They also have a private dining room that residents can take their meal service if they have guests (Mom would invite family and friends there for a few occasions).
> 
> It was sad that the original owner had health issues, but the new management company improved things and brought the place back to its original vision and more, because they have more experience and depth.


Yes, there are always exceptions to any kind of 'general rule' GreatLaker. That's why they are 'general' rather than 'absolute' rules. The success of any business always come done to the quality of management. Whenever I see a business with a high turnover of staff, I always blame the management, not the staff. I had no intention of managing this venture on a day to day basis myself. My intent would be to hire an experienced manager with a strong hotel background since that is in fact what the facility would be more than anything. The restaurant would need both a decent chef and an experienced front of house manager. It is the front of house manager who has to drive what the customer experiences when they are in the restaurant. I am a big believer in training. Too many small businesses simply hire poorly qualified people at low wages and then expect them to have great customer service skills overnight somehow. A good manager trains people. A smart owner hires good managers and pays them accordingly.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> That's pretty much how I feel about being in a senior's residence of any kind. I would rather be alone than to have people trying to push me into doing things I don't really care anything about. I'm not so much 'old school' though; I won't mind doing house chores like cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. I did all those things before I got married at 31 y/o.
> 
> Now, I am realistic enough to understand that I'm not going to be climbing any ladders with a running chainsaw in the not too distant future, so I would hire someone to do that kind of thing.
> 
> So, since the idea is 'dead', can I say where I guess this place might be?


Userkare, I sent you a Private Message.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

GreatLaker said:


> As a counterpoint, the place my mom was in that I mentioned in post # 59 was well run when first opened, then the owner (a local architect that specialized in redvitalizing older buildings) seemed to take on too many projects and could not effectively manage all of them, so the building management and maintenance suffered. Staff regularly were laid off when they got to a certain level of seniority. Support like cleaning and security were diminished. At some point the owner was reportedly beset by health problems
> 
> They needed more revenue, so a new management company was hired, that specialized in facilities for seniors. The original owner retained a stake, but was no longer managing it. The building was different from LTA's proposal. It was an old hospital that was converted to seniors' apartments. It was a good fit because it had wide doors and corridors, large main floor for common and dining spaces and easy accessibility. The main floor was split into a seniors' side that needed a fob for access, and a public side that was open during business hours. The public side rented space to a nurse-practitioner clinic, and some office space for small businesses. They also opened a café, staffed by the senior residence kitchen staff. The restaurant may have 30 seats, and caters to residents that don't take the meal plan, residents on the meal plan that want a coffee or snack with visitors, and people from local businesses (there is a drug store nearby, some medical clinics, small retail, a church etc.). So it caters to a specific local clientele and brings in extra revenue. They also have a private dining room that residents can take their meal service if they have guests (Mom would invite family and friends there for a few occasions).
> 
> It was sad that the original owner had health issues, but the new management company improved things and brought the place back to its original vision and more, because they have more experience and depth.




thankx for this interesting story. A public hospital in my neighbourhood was also closed a couple of decades ago & its evolution followed a path not unlike your mom's former hospital building.

for almost a decade - before, during & after the closure - there was intense public scrutiny at all times. Scutiny so intense that at times it approached uproar. Front page media, TV news headliners, massive resident involvement, lively community meetings, careful attention from politicians at all levels from municipal through provincial up to federal.

in your case, the original architect must have played a pivotal role. A physical hospital is a difficult building to repurpose & it sounds like he designed a very workable plan.

it's not surprising that eventually the architect foundered a bit with the everyday management of his project as a multi-purpose health services centre including a seniors' residence; but your story has such a happy ending. New management eventually arrived on board ... & things got better, not worse.

stories like yours are role models, we do need more middle-income senior housing in canada, me i continue to think that repurposing older buildings is a useful approach, thankx again for sharing.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

You always have to keep in mind what you are good at and what you do not have the experience in to be expect to be good at. I have seen this so many times.

There are things SOME people can reasonably expect to be able to learn 'on the job', like how to change a light bulb having never changed one before (simple example obviously). But deciding to give up your 'rat race career' that pays you big bucks and open a restaurant or in this case a seniors residence is not likely to be one of them for MOST people. Yet you see people doing such things all the time. There are reasons why so many small businesses fail and inexperienced management is one of them.

I know what I have been successful at, selling. For anything else, my view has always been to hire those who are good at whatever other aspects are needed. Hindsight is always 20/20 of course but if the architect GreatLaker describes had hired a good manager to begin with, the dip in quality might never have occurred. 

I would agree humble_pie that GreatLaker's story should be a role model as far as the idea of re-purposing the building. But beyond that it should not be a role model, it should be a lesson in what NOT to do, that is failing to hire a good manager to run it once it is up and running.

By the way humble_pie, your story of the hospital building in your area is a very good example of why I would never want to get involved with government in such a venture. A DECADE to get it off the ground! A nightmare that is par for the course whenever government is involved. 

For various reasons, a small public school near us was closed a couple of years ago. School, playground, parking lot, a decent sized property in the middle of the town. It has recently been sold to an unnamed private buyer. It took the school board and government a couple of years just to be able to sell it. So far the buyer has been remaining anonymous and nothing has been said as to what the property's future is. But IF it were to be turned into a seniors residence, I would bet on it not taking another 8 years for it to happen now that it is in private hands.

If you are going to wait on government to address a problem, you will always wait much longer than if private business addresses it. Our government is so far behind the curve in addressing seniors housing it would be a joke if it weren't so serious. The current effect on seniors housing that the Baby Boom has resulted in is not something that comes as a surprise. It has been easily predictable since the Boomer birth years ended in 1965. So you would THINK that the government and in particular the health sector of government at all levels would have been 'forward planning' for it. But they have not and as a result we have the results like beds in corridors, not enough family doctors, not enough places for seniors at all levels of care, etc.

Our governments at all levels are now trying to play 'catch up' and they are useless at that as well.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> your story of the hospital building in your area is a very good example of why I would never want to get involved with government in such a venture. A DECADE to get it off the ground! A nightmare that is par for the course whenever government is involved.



i was including all the years - mostly vigorous community resistance - prior to the actual closing of the hospital. Most of the ideas regardng what to do with the hospital building post-closure incubated, aired & were discussed during those years, while the building was still operating as a public hospital. It was during those years that politicians from municipal level through provincial to federal, got involved. There were something like 4-5 years discussion, 2-3 years physical re-engineering & construction, another couple years for the repurposed building to fill with tenants & find its firm financial footing.






> a small public school near us was closed a couple of years ago. School, playground, parking lot, a decent sized property in the middle of the town. It has recently been sold to an unnamed private buyer. It took the school board and government a couple of years just to be able to sell it. So far the buyer has been remaining anonymous and nothing has been said as to what the property's future is.



but how could the buyer be anonymous, the sale transaction is a public record.

in addition, the local media weekly - it's likely your district or the nearest large town has a weekly - or else there's a local radio station broadcasting at least part-time - those scribes & editors undoubtedly know who bought the former school property & they also know what its ultimate usage is likely to be.

to tell the truth, it surprises me that you don't seem to be plugged into the local bush telegraph. It works faster than the internet. Rural areas are famous for a bush telegraph that crackles invisibly night & day. Closing a school, selling its schoolhouse & land is a major event that must have had parents & others in your community in an uproar for years. The keenest of radars would have sniffed out the new buyer(s) & their intentions long before the deal even closed.

in the same manner, i doubt that you could ever have swooped in, acquired the 24-unit motel, converted it to senior housing, recruited wealthy fellow investors, filled the building plus restaurant with residents plus a manager plus other personnel as necessary, then sold the enterprise for 100% profit within 2 short years, all without any public scrutiny whatsoever. 

i'm fairly sure that gummint inspectors would have announced their presence. Not to speak of the above-mentioned media, which would have sniffed you out within the first couple of weeks. For example, to build the partition for dividing off the main floor zone where the common room(s) for the residents would be created, you would have had to apply for a building permit, no?

surely you realize that local media routinely monitor all building permits, looking for exactly the kind of interesting news stories that yours would have been. *Seniors Home to Open at Closed Motel XYZ Site*, would go the headline.

in a rural setting that kind of news would be circulating on the bush telegraph even before presstime .each:


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

humble_pie said:


> i was including all the years - mostly vigorous community resistance - prior to the actual closing of the hospital. Most of the ideas regardng what to do with the hospital building post-closure incubated, aired & were discussed during those years, while the building was still operating as a public hospital. It was during those years that politicians from municipal level through provincial to federal, got involved. There were something like 4-5 years discussion, 2-3 years physical re-engineering & construction, another couple years for the repurposed building to fill with tenants & find its firm financial footing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well some of those comments I agree with and some I do not humble_pie.

Re your hospital timeline, it would be quite different if it were a private venture. Your 2-3 year for re-purposing and construction would be halfed at least. I have been involved in the far distant past in larger construction projects both private and government and there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that it always takes twice as long to do anything when it is a government project. My planned timeline from beginning to end of construction for the motel was 3 months. Time is money.

Re the local school closing here. A buyer who wishes to remain anonymous simply buys through a trust company. This article talks about 'laundering dirty money' but the process is the same whatever reason someone has to want to remain anonymous. https://www.livabl.com/2016/12/anonymous-real-estate-deals-making-canadas-housing-market.html

I can even see a local farmer buying the property and not wanting everyone in town to know his business so he has his lawyer set it up to keep him anonymous. The local 
'bush telegraph' as you say likes to know everyone's business, it isn't always a good thing is it. There are a lot of things I like about living in a small town but the 'bush telegraph' is one thing I do not like about it. Everyone knowing everyone else's business can be invasive.

Re the intended use of the old school property, the buyer does not have to disclose any intended use when buying. Closing the school did upset local parents before it was closed as you suggest must have happened but once it was closed, their interest was gone. If the buyer never disclosed an intended use, the 'keenest of radars' would have had no way to sniff out anything and did not. The school was sold 2 years or so ago now and nothing has been done to the property yet. No one knows who owns it or what the intent is for it's future. The local media did report at the time of sale on it, they reported it had been sold to an anonymous buyer and that what was intended was not known. End of media coverage.

Quite a few stores are empty on the 3-4 blocks of the main 'downtown' area and have been since we moved her 10 years ago. Quite a few of the owners of those properties are local and quite a few are out of town owners ie. Toronto. What do those owners intend for their properties? It seems that they are simply 'sitting' on those properties waiting for change or increases in value before selling. It's quite common here I've found. There are 3 or 4 long term, local families who own multiple properties and have done so for many years. They just own them and sit on them with no intentions of doing anything it seems. The school is just another that is sitting right now. No one really wonders about any of them.

The motel would have been approached by a third party, most likely simply a real estate agent representing an interested buyer, certainly not me personally and would have been bought by a company registered in Toronto. No connection locally to discover there. The investors would have been located in Toronto and again no connection to be found or indication of intended use to be found. Managers would not have been recruited locally(I doubt you could find qualified people). Only once it was up and running would it's intent have become known UNLESS we chose to make it known sooner to attract potential residents.

What reason would government inspectors have to 'announce their presence'? That's why I was expecting to avoid registering it as a Retirement Home. To keep the government out of it. There would again be no 'sniffing it out' by the media unless we chose to let them sniff it out. Renovating motel units would not indicate anything and building partition walls would indicate nothing. A building permit would be needed but that does not require any disclosure of intent, other than what you intend to construct. ie. a partition wall. You don't have to say what the partitioned areas are going to be used for.

If you hire a contractor and say, 'I want you to renovate these motel units', what story could the contractor pass onto the bush telegraph. The only local paper headline if they thought it worthwhile writing about would be, 'motel to be renovated'. The same applies to the bush telegraph. It would be simple to keep speculation to thinking it was going to just be yet another attempt to make the motel work as a motel until you chose to reveal some other intended use.

Even after opening, what reason would there be for government inspectors to get involved? It's a motel, it has units for rent by the day, week, month and longer term seniors are encouraged to use it as their home. There is nothing for anyone to inspect other than in the same way any motel might be inspected for say fire and safety etc. by the local Fire Department or the kitchen inspected for food preparation, cleanliness, etc. just like any other public restaurant would be. If it were registered as a Retirement Home however that is no doubt a different story and more like you are thinking it would be. Answer, don't register it. There is no law against renting motel units by the month as long term residences. As proof of that, there are many small motels along the old highways (Highway 2 for example) that operate as long term residences at low rents for those that can't find anything else they can afford. Farm workers, welfare recipients, etc. There are without exaggerating, probably at least 50 within a 100km radius of here. 

I think you are overestimating the ability of the local media or bush telegraph and underestimating the ability of those who might wish to keep their intent under wraps until they chose to disclose it humble_pie. I don't see why there would be any reason to not disclose the intended use once it had been bought but there would not be any difficulty in not disclosing it either if that is what was wanted.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

humble_pie said:


> Rural areas are famous for a bush telegraph that crackles invisibly night & day. Closing a school, selling its schoolhouse & land is a major event that must have had parents & others in your community in an uproar for years. The keenest of radars would have sniffed out the new buyer(s) & their intentions long before the deal even closed.


Ah yes, the 'bush telegraph', the most popular source of unsubstantiated information. I'll tell you a story...

In the mid 70's, I was looking for a piece of property ( acreage ) in rural Ontario, somewhere between Toronto and Ottawa. My dream, at that time, was to build a house with an airstrip and fly to and from my remote retreat every weekend while working in TO or OTT. I found the right piece of property, and flew some aerial photography missions, as well as low altitute approaches to see where a runway would best fit.

Fast foward to when I started to build the house... Tradesmen were showing up at my "construction HQ" tent, asking if I had work for them. After a time, talking to them, I came to realize that they believed there would be a major sub-division built. I asked why they thought that, and they told me that there had been aerial surveys of the area, so it must be a major development coming.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> Ah yes, the 'bush telegraph', the most popular source of unsubstantiated information. I'll tell you a story...
> 
> In the mid 70's, I was looking for a piece of property ( acreage ) in rural Ontario, somewhere between Toronto and Ottawa. My dream, at that time, was to build a house with an airstrip and fly to and from my remote retreat every weekend while working in TO or OTT. I found the right piece of property, and flew some aerial photography missions, as well as low altitute approaches to see where a runway would best fit.
> 
> Fast foward to when I started to build the house... Tradesmen were showing up at my "construction HQ" tent, asking if I had work for them. After a time, talking to them, I came to realize that they believed there would be a major sub-division built. I asked why they thought that, and they told me that there had been aerial surveys of the area, so it must be a major development coming.


Good story Userkare. The bush telegraph can as easily get it wrong as get it right obviously. That's one of the downsides to it. 

Our small town local newspaper is just about as unreliable for any real news. It's basically a one man band and his wife. There is no real journalism in the sense of 'investigative reporting' done as far as I can tell. When we first moved here I subscribed as a saw it as a way to get to know a bit more about the area we had chosen to live in. After a couple of years I stopped subscribing as I found there was very little worth reading in it. I get better information when I'm sitting in the chair getting a haircut, I just have to remember to take it all with a grain of salt and not accept every story as gospel.

Last year we had our driveway re-done. Not gravel, asphalt or concrete, we opted for stone pavers. A bit higher initial cost over concrete but not as much higher as many people seem to think. A couple of weeks after it was finished, I got a haircut. So I'm in the chair and the first thing my haircutter (female) says to me is, 'so how do you like your new driveway?' Yup, the bush telegraph had spread the news. I said, we were very happy with it and with the contractor who did the work. Next question, 'that kind of driveway is very expensive.' Ah, 'fishing' for information on what it cost. Not a chance. I replied, 'well, I guess it is one of those things where if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it, as the saying goes.' Playing with the bush telegraph can be fun.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

So just a quick update. I had a very interesting conversation with a restaurant consultant who I found through some old contacts. He seemed knowledgeable about local eating places, mentioning several I know in the area. 

His take on my idea of combining a place for seniors to live with a restaurant open to the public was that it was unlikely to work very well. Apparently, those local restaurants who do offer a bit more than the usual family restaurant type menus do not do that well. They 'make a living' but that's about it.

So that's another nail in the coffin of my original idea. Oh well, I'm now thinking it would probably have ended up being too much work anyway.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> So just a quick update. I had a very interesting conversation with a restaurant consultant who I found through some old contacts. He seemed knowledgeable about local eating places, mentioning several I know in the area.
> 
> His take on my idea of combining a place for seniors to live with a restaurant open to the public was that it was unlikely to work very well. Apparently, those local restaurants who do offer a bit more than the usual family restaurant type menus do not do that well. They 'make a living' but that's about it.
> 
> So that's another nail in the coffin of my original idea. Oh well, I'm now thinking it would probably have ended up being too much work anyway.



as Plugging said, the combo of an upscale restaurant w an old folks residence will never fly. No you couldn't have kept the old folks out of sight. The bush telegraph would have known.

but your work wasn't in vain. Thanks very much for sharing. You shone a bright light on the need for decent, wholesome lower-cost senior housing. Your communications won't be totally lost imho. Others will be able to find older buildings to re-purpose & the need for senior housing will be met in creative new ways, imho.

ps i think what might have worked in your case was a plan for 24 residents only. There would be some females of course. It might have been possible with clever construction to build a couple of suites larger, in order to accommodate couples.

alas doesn't sound like enough people to justify a full-time chef plus kitchen staff though. Me if i'd wanted to develop a project like that, i would have explored the upscale home-cooked-delivery services that you mentioned were flourishing in the region. One of them might turn out to be able to cater meals for maximum 24 seniors. Who knows, even w the focaccia, the dijon, the shaved ham & the sliced pear.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I am sure there are ways to get around the restaurant issue but the problem I see is that whatever way you do it, the price per resident would have to increase considerably and that then will probably defeat the intent of an 'affordable' alternative. You end up with just another Seniors Residence at $3k+ per month.


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