# What do you think about realestate in Niagara Falls?



## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm thinking about downsizing from TO to NF. I work from home and don't really need to be in Toronto, but i do like it here since i've been living here my whole life. What i'm finding now is rent is too high at least $1200 for a 1 bed room which seem to be not that great. 
I work from home so i need space. The other thing is that every year i go to asia for about 4-5 months which means subletting or finding a new apartment. This is becoming tedious to say the least, and i see the situation just getting worse in the coming years. I do have money saved and could buy a house for 100-150k. This would probably save me money in the long run vs renting. 
I've visited Niagara about 5 times last year and becoming familiar with it. It seems pleasant, every thing that Toronto isn't - green friendly and cheaper. I find many housing in the NF downtown which seem to have plenty of potencial.
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=10235451&PidKey=-306844824
here's another one
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9809621&PidKey=-870169528
Seems to a few of these classic housing popping up all the time and the price is right. From what i can tell the neighbourhood is good, like a small part of Toronto 20 years ago. Problem i have is that every RE agent i talk to tells me that area there not good. Doesn't seem to be high crime or anything, just a lot of rental and skid people around. Again sounds like Toronto. They all say to buy west of Stanley ave. but i find that area is so dull and boring.
I don't really know it will work for me in the long run in NF, so i'd like to buy some thing that at least has a chance of going up in value if i sell in a few years. I may want to move back to TO, don't know really. Is anyone familiar with NF's? I be interested in your opinion. 
The other area that seem good is Chippawa, 
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=10204810&PidKey=2131699581
Over all NF's seems like a good place to live with a lot of parks and nature near by. 1-1/2 from Toronto is not bad, could visit once a week should be a problem. Tourism seems to bring money on a regular basis. 
None the less seems NF has a bad reputation and a few people have said the RE market there is just dead. So that's what stopping from moving there.


----------



## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm from the Niagara Region (dinky township of Wainfleet) and share the sentiments of your agent. Have you thought about the St. Catherines area? Closer to Toronto and better communities IMHO.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Hmmm didn't we discuss this last year? If not, then if there is no reason for you to be in Toronto, definitely don't pay those high prices and stress of living in such a congested area. My concern though is how you seem to think that owning a house suits the lifestyle of someone who goes away for several months a year. It does not. An apartment in a tower is the best for that type of living, as you simply lock the door and go away, tell the royal mail to hold the mail. With a house it's so obvious to criminals that you're not there and when a tree falls on the house or the pipes break, you need to fix these things expeditiously. Simply walking away from a house for 4-5 months is a bad idea, and if you are planning on doing that then you would be better off with an apartment.

Also, it is not necessarily true that you will save money by owning. I've found the excact opposite to be true. When I moved to a more sensible city, I ended up with an apt with twice as much space for half the cost of my condo, which was half the size.

Nothing says you can't get an apt in NF if that's where you want to live. No reason you need to leap right to a house.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I agree with Royal.

My standard advice for anyone moving to a new area is to rent first, learn the lay of the land and then buy if it makes sense.

In your case, buying doesn't really make much sense to me.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I second the sentiments on NF.
It's an economically dead area.
There is very little new construction.
House prices don't appreciate because it doesn't attract upwardly mobile professional residents.
Buying makes sense if you plan to set up a vineyard, organic farm or want to enjoy "country" living.
In that case, you need to buy several acres of property with a century old home.
Nothing wrong with that, just doesn't seem to align with the profile you laid out for yourself.


----------



## mrcheap (Apr 4, 2009)

I was thinking exactly the same thing as Royal and 4P as I read this ("why doesn't he just rent?" and "he's going to be away from a house for 4-5 months - eep!").

Years ago my brother was living in a small community in Quebec and he got some ridiculously cheap rentals (like $250 for a nice apartment). Might be worth looking into the rental situation in a few communities that you'd find acceptable to live in.

I'd be very interesting in hearing more about this 4-5 months per year in Asia... I imagine a number of bloggers would be delighted to get a guest-post on the topic.

Another idea would be to buy something and get roommates who would be willing to take care of the place when you're away. Not sure if you'd want to live with people when you're in Canada though... 

Also there are people who will live at your place and take care of it for extended periods (like the 4-5 months for you), although I think the standard deal is they stay free in exchange for taking care of the place...


----------



## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

Well renting every year is really not a joy. Dealing with new landlords is not so easy since my income and job are not regular, then they hate me in the end because i break the lease. Then i have to move and storage and everything get damaged or even stolen if i hire the wrong mover. I have to stay in hotel while i find an apartment (it took 6 days this year, but i actually found a good deal for $1000 a month for 2 bd rooom bung at bath& lawren) but other years it hasn't been so lucky.
I've never lived in a high rise, i can't imagine i would be happy there, i won't even rent there. Like many people i have the dream of house like i grew up in. Compared to n toronto it is about 8th of the price for the same thing! So for 150k i can get my dream in NF (now), earning enough for house in N Toronto maybe a dream too but i wonder if will ever get there at my age. 
I guess security is one issue, i imagined i would just be friendly with the neighbours and they would keep an eye out.
I have a feeling in 10 year the housing price may be much higher in NF as well as rent in TO maybe completely out of wack, then i'll be saying remember when i could get that nice fixer-upper for 130k...
The other option comes to mind is Florida or somewhere in the states.
Here check out this one, in 1995 it sold for 375k US!
http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...Big-Pine-Key_FL_33043_M62346-63878?source=web
probably too hot during the summers though...


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I think the inconveniences you experience when renting are just a fact of life for you, since you basically split your time in two different places.

Owning a house will solve some of these issues and then create a whole pile of new ones.

I'm not sure why you are ok with buying a house (which you will be paying for all year) and then leaving it vacant for 4-5 months and yet with rentals, you break your lease, put your stuff into storage etc when you are gone.

Have you thought about just keeping your apartment year-round? This will cost more, but it will solve a lot of the issues you are having. Maybe get a cheaper rental? 

I think that is a better option than buying a house.


----------



## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

chaudi said:


> This would probably save me money in the long run vs renting.


Meh, probably not much, as we discussed in the last thread, it's roughly break-even on a year-round basis, but whatever.



> Problem i have is that every RE agent i talk to tells me that area there not good.


They're willing to give up a commission to tell you that, but hey, if you'd been there like 5 times, you probably have a better handle of what works for you.



> I don't really know it will work for me in the long run in NF, so i'd like to buy some thing that at least has a chance of going up in value if i sell in a few years.


The last decade has been characterized by loosening mortgage regulations, lower interest rates, and a collective lust for real estate whose like has never been seen before or since, leading to a _global _real estate boom. Yet with all that going for it, NF has gone nowhere (get one of your RE agents to give you the stats to confirm for yourself). NF is cheaper than Toronto because there isn't nearly as much of a speculative premium priced in... Take that how you want to.



> The other option comes to mind is Florida or somewhere in the states.



Well, if you're open to the US, why not Niagara Falls, USA? Just an extra 5 km from Toronto, and you can buy a house for $15,000 -- yes, ten times less than in NF, Canada. 
http://www.trulia.com/property/3043782558--2013-13th-Street-Niagara-Falls-NY-14305




the-royal-mail said:


> Hmmm didn't we discuss this last year?


We did indeed.



the-royal-mail said:


> Nothing says you can't get an apt in NF if that's where you want to live. No reason you need to leap right to a house.


+1 (I guess +2, since I made that recommendation last summer  



chaudi said:


> Well renting every year is really not a joy. Dealing with new landlords is not so easy since my income and job are not regular, then they hate me in the end because i break the lease. Then i have to move and storage and everything get damaged or even stolen if i hire the wrong mover. I have to stay in hotel while i find an apartment


Well, to paraphrase the ING commercials and the last thread: "If you're sick of breaking your lease and moving every year, then don't break your lease and move every year."



> I've never lived in a high rise, i can't imagine i would be happy there


Well, why not give it a try? It could potentially just be 6 months. How bad could it be?


----------



## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

Are the trips to China always at the same time of year and for the same period? Or does it vary? 

And whereabouts in the city are you living? $1,200 for a 1-bedroom seems steep. I remember seeing even nice-sized 2-bedrooms for less than that.


----------



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks potato! I thought this was familiar. chaudi, please re-read the discussion thread you started last year. The points remain.

You cannot expect neighbors to be responsible to watch your house. My parents were leaving their house for a few days at a time every week during the summer and the criminals figured it out and broke in to the place. So much for that idea.

When you own a house you are chained down to it. 

Have you looked at the sell rate in NF? There's a reason the prices are so cheap. Ask the RE agent to show you a report of similar houses to the one you want, which indicates how much they sold for as a % of their asking price, how long they were on the market, stuff like that. And don't listen to their BS about privacy. As a potential buyer you have the right to know what other houses in your desired area sold for. I get the feeling this type of report will be an eye opener for you.

Also, if you're annoyed at having to move from an apartment, just wait until you have to move from a house. 10x worse. You're at the mercy of someone making an offer. That may not happen as fast as you like, so if you are in a hurry then you'll have to firesale it and then lose money.


----------



## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

"Meh, probably not much, as we discussed in the last thread, it's roughly break-even on a year-round basis, but whatever."

Well that's my point. Why like in crappy apartment every year when i could be living in a house? I've been living in apartments like this for 15 years so i have a good idea mostly they have some problem, noise etc. 

I realize you need to account maybe 2000k per year in maintenance of owning a house, but still i come up with a saving of 3000k vs renting. Consider the house money is just sitting in an account only making 3% per year. 
Owning a house has a chance to go up over 10 and improvement in life style. Is that worth it?


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

chaudi said:


> ...
> Owning a house has a chance to go up over 10 and improvement in life style. Is that worth it?


Everyone here is telling you no. But, you aren't listening.


----------



## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

So your saying no because of the cost? I've been living in apartments for +15 years, i'm getting really sick of it. I've just moved somewhere with a lot of problems and will have to move again i think. My whole life i've had the idea to own my own house, i don't i can ajust to the condo life. Maybe your missing the fact that i work form home and require and good comfortable space so i do work. Other tenants crappy quality apartments etc can really disturb me. 
Why don't i just keep paying rent? Because most rental have some problems and it's just as well to go to another place. How can paying 1300x12 a month possible be cheaper than owning a 150k house?
150k @ 3% = 4.5k per year
tax, 2000
maintenance 2000
utili 1000
insurance 1000
total = 6000
apartment 7 x 1300 = 9200
moving =1000
storage 2500
other 600
= 13300 - 4.5k = $8800
So a difference 2000. I'd save 2000 a month plus all the benefits of owning my house. In 10 years it may at least gain an average 1-2% per year?? that could be another 30-50k tax free. So it looks like alot of upside? I guess it depends on where you but. I'd be open to suggestions, that's why i mention the florida place because it seems like a good investment.
As for security, i'm not that worries because i don't plan on that many expensive items, at least insurance would cover it or an alarm security system.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

In your situation, I'd personally not buy anywhere in the US (esp. FL) simply because of the additional hassles involved, notwithstanding the apparently cheap valuations there.
Taxation issues, dual residency issues, etc.
If you wanna buy low and live frugally, consider other Ontario towns.
Quality of housing in NF and surrounding areas is not good, IMHO.
Consider Peterborough, Kanata, Kingston, London, Cambridge, etc.
More expensive than NF obviously, but better quality IMO.
There is also better chances of appreciation in these areas compared to NF.


----------



## greeny (Jan 31, 2011)

Probably it´s a future great business for a few people.


----------



## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

chaudi said:


> So your saying no because of the cost? I've been living in apartments for +15 years, i'm getting really sick of it. I've just moved somewhere with a lot of problems and will have to move again i think. My whole life i've had the idea to own my own house, i don't i can ajust to the condo life. Maybe your missing the fact that i work form home and require and good comfortable space so i do work. Other tenants crappy quality apartments etc can really disturb me.
> Why don't i just keep paying rent? Because most rental have some problems and it's just as well to go to another place. How can paying 1300x12 a month possible be cheaper than owning a 150k house?
> 150k @ 3% = 4.5k per year
> tax, 2000
> ...


Chaudi:

I think your numbers are really generous. For example, I can't imagine utilities being that low, unless you don't run water, and have no light at night time. Heating, by itself, is rather expensive, and you need minimal heat (so your pipes don't burst even if you're not in Canada during the winter.) Electricity is expensive, and increasing. Even in one of my condo properties, with no one in it I think I paid that amount of money. When you own a house, you have to pay water and sewer, electricity and heating (never mind, telephone, cable and so forth.)

The best you can do from an interest rate is probably about 3.9% fixed, or if you're going variable, maybe 2.1% presently (with the rates probably going up through the years.)

Maintenance should generally be figured to be about 3% of the housing value/year, which means $4.5 K. And when something goes, it tends to be a large cost, so you better have the reserve to handle it. For example, a heating/cooling system goes. There goes $10K. You need a new fridge, $500. You need a plumber in -- $500. These numbers are more common than you think.

The difference you quoted was on a year (not a month). And I really don't think your difference is that much to be honest. First off, you have to compare renting a house in Niagara Falls at the same location (the "rent") compared to purchasing the house in Niagara Falls for this to be a valid comparison.

If I was you, I'd move into rural country west of the connection between Toronto-Barrie, or the east side of Lake Simcoe in a rural farm house. The prices (depending on land size) would be cheaper, and the potential upside much higher. Niagara Falls isn't a place where I would imagine property values rising. If you're talking Niagara-on-the-Lake and wine country... sure.

If you can move to the United States, and have residency and visa covered, sure, move there. Property values are as low as they're going to get. But you're going to have to pay for the property cash (unless you're American.) Because their downpayment for foreigners are something like 35-50% minimum without prior credit ratings.

However, the old caveat emptor ("let the buyer beware") reigns supreme here. The decision is yours.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> If you can move to the United States, and have residency and visa covered, sure, move there. Property values are as low as they're going to get...


Who says? They are just approaching their biggest bubble in the Alt-A and ARM resets in 2012. How will they avoid that one?


----------



## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

Yes thanks for that GeniusBoy expenses should be higher, lets say 9k for a full house per year vs 1 bdroom apartment in Toronto for 7 months is about the same. Interesting about the area you mentioned. What to say about Niagara? it seems like a nice area to live with all the park and enough excitement not to get bored and it's not Toronto. Living in a rural setting sounds too boring for me.
Important to say that 150k is/has is just sitting in a ing account. So i would pay cash that i was comparing it the investment interest.


----------



## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

kcowan: I was thinking if he had CASH to purchase his property, not if he was going to get a mortgage. The ARM and Alt-A resets may create large problems in the US housing prices (in fact, the Economist was talking about that last week).

If you have cash, and citizenship isn't that important, why don't you buy a firesale property in the US? You're going to need to make sure you do your due dillegence, but on a dollar-to-dollar basis, the significant depression in the US provides opportunities and more upside gain than Niagara Falls ever will.

If you look at prices in Florida, for example, they're on average 30-40% down from 2008. If you look for better deals, they're out there. However, you have to be aware of foreclosure laws, etc. There's also great property depression in Arizona and Nevada presently. I just don't see the upside potential of the Niagara real estate market.

The question you have to ask is does the amenities cater to a retiring boomers market?
The Georgian triangle -- absolutely. We're looking at purchasing property in that area for that reason. The upside potential is there, if you find the right neighbourhoods. The Toronto-Barrie corrdior will develop over the next 5-10 years with the extension of GO transit. Another potential location would be out east, with the extension to Oshawa. Or west towards Kitchner-Waterloo and the information technology triangle.

Niagara Falls is too far out, and not well enough catered to capture the boomers retiring. Niagara-on-the-Lake has the potential with high quality restaurants, wineries and the Shaw Festival, but even then, I wouldn't invest there. Hamilton has potential, with the renewal of McMaster University and the downtown core, and Burlington does as well.

You have 2 aspects to look at: 1) Reduction (or perceived reduction in rent); and 2) Potential upside gain in property value. I can see your argument that it's a hassle to rent (there is a time and moving cost value to this -- trust me, I moved 17 times in 17 years before coming home), and that it's easier to find a cheap place to live. I don't think you're going to be saving money over renting. Yet, you're interested in finding parks. There are plenty of beautiful places up north between Toronto to Barrie or west of Barrie that would fit your criteria.

I'd look at or around Keswick (on the edge of Lake Simcoe) or Wasaga Beach/Collingwood. Both are beautiful areas with water. Not that far from Toronto, and significantly more upside potential.

If you look at population growth points, (which is the key to property value gains), Niagara Falls shows little or no activity. That's why housing prices are so cheap.


----------



## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

Hi geniusboy, It seems that NF's has attracted a lot of retires in the past, there are plenty of hospitals and facilities for them. NF seems to be missing a university or college so that keeps the rent market down. 
You place a lot of emphasis on the possibility of increase in value, but most people seems to be saying that RE will be deflating so RE investing at least in Ontario seems to be a poor choice at the moment.
Other than the poor growth record i don't see much 'wrong' with NF.
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=10344289&PidKey=-917820754
This was listed at 64k last night i swear. This isn't consider a great area but it's not exactly jane and finch. I don't really see anything terrible about living there, NF's isn't full of murders or violent crimes. Maybe i should try to rent down there would be wisest. The cheap prices are attractive though, spending another 100k for a potential higher appreciation rate i guess makes sense but who can say the future. Seems the more money you spend on a house the more worries, like owning an expensive car.
I found this beauty in the area you suggested, but something is a red flag, you don't really own the land, but still looks like a deal.
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=10269419&PidKey=679558463


----------



## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

Chaudi:

In general, real estate is going flat or down, but there are always pockets that go up. Real estate is local, not regional or national. That is, look at each place separate against historical and local contextual values.

Like any new property, know your area and figure out why the valuation is there. Get a real estate agent (which is free if you're buying), and ask for comparables (and don't let him/her convince you need more house -- buy what you're comfortable with). Good luck!


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Chaudi, in addition to the areas I listed above, also consider Woodstock, Strathroy, Ellora, all west of Toronto but about the same driving range as Niagara Falls.
Woodstock is more populated and you'll find more upscale homes there.
Strathroy and Ellora are more rustic.
You should find something in your price range at these locations, too.
Don't expect any substantial price appreciation in any of these areas, but I personally would prefer them compared to Niagara Falls.


----------



## greeny (Jan 31, 2011)

I share your view. 



GeniusBoy27 said:


> In general, real estate is going flat or down, but there are always pockets that go up. Real estate is local, not regional or national. That is, look at each place separate against historical and local contextual values.


----------

