# Ride Sharing Cheaper than Owing a Car?



## arc (May 19, 2012)

So recently, I gave up my car and opted for a combination of UBER and zipcar instead. I've been finding that since I only use it for work (~25 km daily one-way), the cost is actually around the same as my insurance. Anyone else have a similar experience or know of any cheaper car sharing services in TOronto?

PS: If anyone is thinking of trying out UBER there's 2 free ride promo codes available right now: https://www.uber.com/invite/ubernicefirstridefree (use the promo code ubernicefirstridefree to get $20 then use roamwithuber to get a second $25)


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

arc said:


> So recently, I gave up my car and opted for a combination of UBER and zipcar instead. I've been finding that since I only use it for work (~25 km daily one-way), the cost is actually around the same as my insurance.


I'm confused by this: by "insurance" do you mean car insurance? Why do you still have car insurance if you no longer own a car? I thought zipcar included insurance in the car-share fee. That's how it works with the carshare I use in Québec (Communauto). I no longer have car insurance. When I rent a car for longer trips, I use one of those credit cards that covers insurance for rentals.

To compare the cost of owning a car vs. using car-share and other modes of transport, I took the price I paid for my car and divided it across all the years I owned the car, then added in repairs, maintenance, insurance, fuel (fuel price is included in car-share fees), and registration. So far the car-share is working out to be about half the cost of owning the car, and the slight inconvenience is balanced by the convenience of never having to go to the garage for repairs, never having to shovel out my car after a snowstorm, never having to buy and switch out snow tires, never having to move my car to the other side of the street on street-cleaning days, never having to wonder if the car alarm I'm hearing is mine. It was worth it for me.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

brad said:


> *I'm confused by this: by "insurance" do you mean car insurance? Why do you still have car insurance if you no longer own a car? *I thought zipcar included insurance in the car-share fee. That's how it works with the carshare I use in Québec (Communauto). I no longer have car insurance. When I rent a car for longer trips, I use one of those credit cards that covers insurance for rentals.
> 
> To compare the cost of owning a car vs. using car-share and other modes of transport, I took the price I paid for my car and divided it across all the years I owned the car, then added in repairs, maintenance, insurance, fuel (fuel price is included in car-share fees), and registration. So far the car-share is working out to be about half the cost of owning the car, and the slight inconvenience is balanced by the convenience of never having to go to the garage for repairs, never having to shovel out my car after a snowstorm, never having to buy and switch out snow tires, never having to move my car to the other side of the street on street-cleaning days, never having to wonder if the car alarm I'm hearing is mine. It was worth it for me.


Surely arc is talking about a cost comparison between Uber/Rideshare vs the cost of ownership and insurance. 

I looked into it, and ownership and insurance is cheaper for my usage, even though I only do about 10 000km a year. It's the daily rates/over night rates that would kill me.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Don't expect UBER to be around long.

It is against the law for people to drive for them, unless they have full commercial insurance. For most people the cost wouldn't be worth it.

UBER claimed to have a supplemental policy that protected drivers, but it was discovered to only protect the company from liability.

The said they had a new policy but wouldn't reveal it. A Toronto court ruled they had to reveal it. 

I think few people will want to pay for the commercial insurance and the required motor vehicle inspections, and the number of drivers will decline to the point of rendering the service useless........at least in Ontario.

Any comparison of private ownership and UBER should include the cost of commercial insurance.

I don't know about the others. How is insurance covered in car sharing ?

Insurance is so sticky these days. I filled out a new application yesterday and they have a whole page of direct questions now on the specific use of the vehicle.

Anyone who doesn't fill it out properly, will end up like the people who bought travel insurance and were denied coverage.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Out of curiousity I checked both Uber and Zipcar websites... neither one is available where I live. I don't exactly live in the sticks either (city with well over 100K+ population). 

Guess I'm stuck with my car since transit is worthless, as well.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Ag Driver said:


> I looked into it, and ownership and insurance is cheaper for my usage, even though I only do about 10 000km a year. It's the daily rates/over night rates that would kill me.



i imagine brad is using car-share for specific occasions, though, not daily 365/year.

parking is a real headache in older cities, or older parts of cities. Many properties have no lanes, garages or even parking pads on front lawns. Around here they don't allow new parking pads.

so park in the street, you say? ha, the muni doesn't allow that either. Homeowners get 1 permit per residence for overnight street parking but in the daytime they're limited to 2 hours. When you go to move your car, you can't just park it anywhere on any street, you have to park it in a slightly different spot but this has to be in an area that's also restricted to neighbourhood stickered cars.

the local parking police keep chalking the cars for the 2-hour limits because the muni makes a fortune off parking violations. All this is because the local merchants need the on-street parking for their customers. The problem gets worse year by year. Actually i have an aging retired neighbour who has taken up the parking wars as a full-time occupation. Tirelessly he attends every council & neighbourhood meeting, speechifies, works petitions, writes letters to local weekly paper, buttonholes locals on the street, has turned into something of a fanatic.

brad's solution is so much better. Ditch the car.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I guess it depends on your usage patterns. I find that even renting a car at the usual rental places (like Enterprise -- my favourite) is cheaper than owning a car outright.

Use a credit card that includes collision/damage insurance so you don't have to buy it from the rental agency. I rented a car for many years when I lived in downtown Toronto and still do this... I haven't owned a car in 7 years, and still rent a car to use every few weekends.

You can often get car rentals as cheap as $20 to $30 a day (after all fees & taxes), if you book in advance. So let's say you spend about $80 for that kind of weekend rental. I do this about one weekend a month on average, so that's around 80x12 = $960

So it's costing me about $1,000 a year to drive mostly brand new cars. I do long distance trips too. And no maintenance or insurance costs (that alone is 1k/year), let alone the capital cost or depreciation. Plus you'll often get free upgrades to nicer cars.

I think it's a sweet deal.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I guess it depends on your usage patterns.


It definitely depends on your usage patterns, plus the options available to you. I happen to live in a city with good public transit, an excellent network of bicycle paths, car share, and rental agencies all within a reasonable distance of my home. I lived in rural or suburban areas most of my life where a car is almost mandatory (I say "almost" because I did live in a small town for a year without a car, but there was a train that got me to my job in the city). My brother lived for 15 years near Menlo Park, California without a car and got around mainly by bicycle, including commuting to work every day.

Here in Montréal the car-share vs. rental question usually boils down to fuel costs and trip length: Communauto reimburses you for any fuel you buy (as well as things like windshield washer fluid), so if fuel prices are high it's sometimes cheaper to use Communauto than to rent a car. But Communauto charges by the kilometer, so on long trips the rental often wins out despite the fact that you have to pay for fuel. For short trips around town or nearby suburbs, Communauto is almost always cheaper than renting, and a lot more convenient (you can reserve a car on the spur of the moment). For example, in December I used Communauto twice: one trip that was 5 hours long, another that was 8 hours. Total combined distance was 50 km. Total combined bill was $38.75. Last June I used it once, for a 2.5 hour trip, 14 km, to run some errands and do some shopping. It cost $13.43. Uber or a taxi would have been much more expensive than that, and I don't think you can rent cars from Enterprise, Budget, etc. for just 2.5 hours.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes that sounds pretty nice. Admittedly the Enterprise/etc places are only worthwhile when you need long stretches of a car.

I've also been looking at Zipcar and Car2go in my city for shorter rentals, like a couple hours at a time. That would be pretty useful. I'm just not convinced regarding the insurance, however.

Car2go for instance describes $1000 deductible for collision/loss damage. That's pretty horrrendous; when I do rental cars I use my credit card and have NO deductible for any damage. Also the third party liability is meagre at 100k. In the US where I am now, in this litiguous society, you could easily get sued by someone for 100k so I'd be much more comfortable with closer to a 1M liability.

Zipcar in Canada has similar shortfalls. It looks like a $1000 deductible (or is it $750 ?). And it's a grey area whether the credit cards cover it, because they may or may not categorize these services as "rental cars".

Does anyone know more about the insurance aspects of these car sharing programs? It's crystal clear to me with rental cars -- I've "stress tested" the system. Auto share programs, I just don't know. I don't like the look of these high deductibles. Rent enough times, and the car WILL get damaged.

I once left a rental car parked on a quiet street in Waterloo, middle of a sunny day, and came back to find that someone had smashed and destroyed the side of it. Apparently a woman managed to careen down this empty street and smash into my parked car (she left a polite note). Anyway, the point is ... accidents will happen. The bill on that minor damage was several thousand $... man oh man do I love the credit card which covered it all.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

brad said:


> Here in Montréal the car-share vs. rental question usually boils down to fuel costs and trip length: Communauto


Brad, Communauto has a $500 deductible for accidents and damage. Is that the plan you're on, or did you pay extra to reduce the deductible?

How do they even know who to blame in case of damage? I imagine several people will use the car during the day, and at some point it will accumulate damage (probably not noticeable to the person who was using it at the time). Eventually the owners discover the damage, so who do they attribute it to?

Have you ever been dinged with damage and the deductible?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Brad, Communauto has a $500 deductible for accidents and damage. Is that the plan you're on, or did you pay extra to reduce the deductible?
> 
> How do they even know who to blame in case of damage? I imagine several people will use the car during the day, and at some point it will accumulate damage (probably not noticeable to the person who was using it at the time). Eventually the owners discover the damage, so who do they attribute it to?
> 
> Have you ever been dinged with damage and the deductible?


I have the $500 deductible but have never had to deal with any damage. Their liability insurance covers up to $5 million, which is good because you're allowed to bring Communauto cars into the US (and I frequently do).

Just as with a rental car, you're supposed to walk around your Communauto and compare any dings with what's marked on the diagram found in the glove compartment. If you see any damage that isn't indicated on the diagram, you report it to Communauto's office before you drive off; that way the damage doesn't get attributed to you.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Do people really inspect each time? I've watched people use Car2go here and they're very casual about it. They just locate the car, walk up and drive away. I just wonder how this "damage" blame plays out in practice.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Do people really inspect each time? I've watched people use Car2go here and they're very casual about it. They just locate the car, walk up and drive away. I just wonder how this "damage" blame plays out in practice.


I'm sure a lot of people don't bother, especially when they're picking up their car at night, but they do so at their own risk. The thing with Communauto is that most of the cars are older and a bit dinged up anyway. Most of the cars I use have at least 100,000 km on them, and some are closer to 200,000. Most are in open lots, but one I use is in a parking garage, in a very tight spot at the end. It's got lots of scratches and dents, and I think Communauto probably doesn't sweat the small damage very much.

Once when I was driving, a side panel that holds an airbag fell off and I couldn't get it to stay on. I called Communauto and told them, and that was fine; there was no payment involved. They sent someone to fix it the next day.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

When I looked into Car2Go costs a few years ago it was significantly cheaper to rent 'normally' from say Discount Car & Truck rental if you were going to have the vehicle for a day or more. If you just want to drive from A to B for a meeting or errand then it might have made sense. Has the pricing made these more competitive now for extended periods?
And does anyone know if these outfits pay the city somekind of 'flat parking fee' for all of the premium parking spaces they occupy? Otherwise it would seem that the city is losing significant parking revenue?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree that it would be nice if the pricing models for carshares allowed lower 'daily' rates. As it is, they are forcing people to deal with another company to meet that need. 

For my needs, it is still cheaper/more convenient to own, just because carshares are so expensive. I can't wait until we have robotaxis (self-driving cars available for hire--Uber without the driver). They will put carshares, taxis & Uber out of business. And they will likely be cheap, convenient and ubiquitous enough to get a substantial portion of the population out of car ownership.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

A tradeoff for those that live in wamer (and dry) areas is to get a scooter for convenience. Generally cheap maintenace/insurance/price and allows you to zip across the city with some carrying capacity.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> And does anyone know if these outfits pay the city somekind of 'flat parking fee' for all of the premium parking spaces they occupy? Otherwise it would seem that the city is losing significant parking revenue?


I think in the case of Montreal, at least, the city encourages the use of carshare as a way to help it meet its greenhouse gas reduction target. A panel study by the city found that each car-share vehicle removes 3-10 cars from the road, which alleviates traffic and parking congestion, so they want to promote it. There are lots of incentives to going car-free here (or as a friend of mine puts it, "living carlessly"), and car owners have to pay a small surtax when they renew their registration. I suspect the revenue from the surtax more than makes up for any lost parking revenue.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Today I walked by a guy who was loading up a Car2go. I pointed out to him that an entire bumper-like kick guard thing (huge plastic piece) was detached from the side of his car and it appeared very tattered.

He said -- "oh hey thanks, the previous person must have hit something".

I'm still not sure about this high deductible thing and how to handle damage. Clearly these cars are getting damaged...


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I'm still not sure about this high deductible thing and how to handle damage. Clearly these cars are getting damaged...


I agree that the Car2Go deductible is high. Communauto's is much more reasonable ($500), which is lower than the deductible I chose when I owned my own car. Over the long haul, self-insuring by assuming a higher deductible is cheaper than paying higher premiums for a lower deductible, unless you're unlucky. I have friends who've been using Communauto for more than 10 years and have nothing but good things to say, so I don't think they're getting hit with other people's repair costs. 

Really, the onus is on you as the user to do the inspection and make sure any damages matches what is shown on the diagram in the glove compartment. If you don't bother, then you assume the risk. It only takes a minute -- when you rent a car from one of the standard rental agencies, they walk you through that same inspection before you drive off.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

just out of curiosity, how does a printed diagram of damage already done to the car manage to appear, all up-to-date with the most recent driver's nicks & dents, fresh in the glove compartment for each new car borrower?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> just out of curiosity, how does a printed diagram of damage already done to the car manage to appear, all up-to-date with the most recent driver's nicks & dents, fresh in the glove compartment for each new car borrower?


Communauto sends a staff person once a month (maybe more often) to collect the receipts and inspect and clean the cars. It's at that point that the diagram gets updated. So if you see something that isn't marked on the diagram, you call Communauto and let them know. If someone else already reported it, they already know -- they might in fact ask you to add it to the diagram so they don't keep getting calls about it. I haven't had to do that yet, since I've never encountered any new damage on any of the cars I've used so far.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sounds like a good home-grown system for folks who are mechanically apt. But it would take someone like me 10-15 mins to inspect the car while checking every detail against a maybe month-old diagram of prior damages (omg is that a new stain on the upholstery that i see before me?)

normally i wouldn't know a nick from a nickel or a dent from a dime, i might be sorry to have to spend time fretting about these things but overall i believe the relief from the parking problem in my hood would outweigh the nickels & the dimes in the end


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

The diagram only shows exterior damage, and just the big stuff. Little scratches etc are expected and don't count. 

Car-share, at least Communauto's brand of it, is different from the rental car business: with rental cars you're usually getting a new car, gleaming and polished with no or little damage. With Communauto you sometimes get a new car but most of the fleet is pretty old and they don't bother to repair minor cosmetic damage. The outside inspection takes me about 15 seconds. It helps that I often end up using the same car (we used the same car for nearly all our trips in January and February, for example), so I know what to look for.

As for the inside, when you fill our your receipt, you're supposed to note whether the inside of the car was "clean" or "dirty," and whether the previous person had left enough fuel in the tank (you're supposed to leave at least 1/2 a tank). If the car was dirty or the person didn't leave enough fuel, they get a friendly call or email from Communauto reminding them to read the user policy.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

Using car-share and renting cars through costco saves me a tremendous amount of money. Also, it forces me to bike to work which keeps me in great shape.

The only thing I really need a car for is to get groceries. If I book a car from 11pm until midnight, all I pay for is milage which is $0.25 a km which comes to about $2 (this includes gas & insurance). 

Honestly, by committing to the car free life style my yearly TFSA contributions are taken care of plus it keeps me in pretty good shape to boot.

Plus, there is a car about a 2 minute walk from my house. It's a pretty sweet set up for me. I do miss my Audi A3 though. Driving these little KIA's really have zero fun in them.

Cars are expensive!
http://caa.ca/car_costs/


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

When the Ministry of Transportation do roadside vehicle safety checks, the worst offenders are U-Haul trucks and trailers.

They are driven constantly, and very seldom maintained, serviced or inspected.

I suspect the "car share" vehicles are much the same. 

A walk around the vehicle isn't going to show brake pad wear, rusting fuel lines, holes in the frame, or loose ball joints on the front wheels.

How does a driver know when they get into the car............that the last person didn't change a tire and forget to tighten the nuts on the wheel ?

If a person is in a bad accident because the brakes fail...........who is at fault ?

The other day I was at my insurance broker's office and my agent asked me directly if the new vehicle was going to be used to "uber".

She said if people don't declare it on their insurance, the insurer will say they misrepresented the use of the vehicle and deny the claim.

Eventually, the government and insurance companies will "catch up" and demand regular maintenance inspections and higher risk ratings for the vehicles.

How many people would rent their personal vehicle out to anyone with a drivers licence and $20 bucks in their pocket ?

http://globalnews.ca/news/1898833/uber-users-drivers-at-risk-without-proper-insurance-coverage/


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

none said:


> Cars are expensive!
> http://caa.ca/car_costs/


It wouldn't let me enter my specific vehicle, so I just chose "midsize car" and it came up with $10,343. Seriously?

I have no idea how they arrive at these figures. I don't even drive a fuel efficient car and it only cost me $3342 last year.

That's excluding depreciation because I only buy cars that are at least 10 years old. I *might"* lose $500 a year in depreciation, but that depends on how much I paid for the vehicle and what the condition is like vs. when I acquired it. Most of my vehicles are in just as good or better shape even after a couple years of driving.

I actually sold my last car for $950 more than I paid because I'd done some work on it.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

sags said:


> I suspect the "car share" vehicles are much the same.
> 
> A walk around the vehicle isn't going to show brake pad wear, rusting fuel lines, holes in the frame, or loose ball joints on the front wheels.
> 
> ...


Actually the cars are very well maintained on the level of a car rental dealership. I've had no issues. It's really a great service. I'd highly recommend it.


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

nathan79 said:


> I have no idea how they arrive at these figures. I don't even drive a fuel efficient car and it only cost me $3342 last year.



All the details of the model can be determine by clicking on the '?' button.

It's similar to houses. People don't really realize how much cash they dump into their house - it's just a slow bleed that you get used to.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

none said:


> All the details of the model can be determine by clicking on the '?' button.
> 
> It's similar to houses. People don't really realize how much cash they dump into their house - it's just a slow bleed that you get used to.


Yeah, but it's saying that you're going to spend $33,0645 just on maintenance and depreciation on the average mid-size car over five years. I'd say that if that's really true, then you're doing something very wrong with your car.

Over five years the average car probably only needs oil changes, a set of tires, and a few sets of brake pads. And if you don't beat the hell out of it, it should retain about half of its value.


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## Sasquatch (Jan 28, 2012)

Sure, cars are expensive, but so are a lot of other things. It all depends what you want.
I'm lucky enough to be able to have a car for my wife and a truck for me. Car is one year old and truck is 10 years old. We both enjoy the convenience of having our own vehicles, even though we are both retired and don't really NEED them. We are well aware that there is a price to pay, nothing is free !
We could easily do without and use buses or the odd taxi but hell would freeze over before that'll ever happen. We budget for it and we don't have to sacrifice anything else for the priviledge of having 2 vehicles.
It's just our choice of doing things and as long as it makes you happy and you know the consequences, all is good !! Some folks spend their money on expensive trips or entertaining or saving a big inheritance for their kids. Whatever tips your little wagon


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