# Ontario Hydro bills set to rise (again) on Jan 1 2016



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Well here we go again....the generous hand of the Ontario Fiberals giveth...and the other hand taketh away...

The unpopular cash cow (Ontario Hydro stranded debt that was repaid a "few years ago") will be removed from our monthly hydro bills...Yea!!:encouragement:
However..OTOH..the clean energy 10% reduction that most of us get will be taken away...leaving us with a net INCREASE in any case.
To stop consumer revolts who are already being gouged at the gas pumps and natural gas increases this spring....the Liberals are proposing new program for low income family 
that *earn LESS than $40k per year* to help them with the loss of the 10% clean energy benefit.


> “The program will provide ongoing support to eligible consumers directly on their electricity bills,” he said. “For a low-income family, the program could offer relief of 10% per month.





> The bottom line for a typical residential ratepayer is their hydro bill will rise by roughly $10 a month, exclusive of any increases in electricity prices.


http://www.torontosun.com/2014/04/2...to-rise-despite-end-of-debt-retirement-charge


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

carverman said:


> ...the Liberals are proposing new program for low income family
> that *earn LESS than $40k per year* to help them with the loss of the 10% clean energy benefit.


Don't they already get the Ontario Energy Tax Credit (part of the Trillium benefit)?


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Hydro has been the biggest cash grab by this govt. in the last 5 years.
They have come up with all kinds of pathetic excuses and justifications for screwing the consumers.

Normal use residential customers on the erstwhile flat rate have seen their rates more than double on the top end, and increase by 50% on the lowest tier.

The imposition of the HST was another form of cash grab by the McG administration.

While, the entire time, the degenerate, grotesque fatcats at Hydro One, OPG, OEB, and OPA have been pis*ing consumers money away on their lavish expense accounts, benefits, and pensions.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Careful Harold. The idealogs will be along shortly to blame and villify the customer.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

Install solar. It's subsidized and locks in your energy price. The numbers make pretty good sense in Ontario.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Retired Peasant said:


> Don't they already get the Ontario Energy Tax Credit (part of the Trillium benefit)?


AFAIK, the OTB includes Ont sales tax benefit, Ontario energy and property tax credit. I get those as well as the 10% clean energy benefit on my hydro bill. I think that the clean energy has
something to do with the Windfarms or Nuclear generation, but not entirely sure.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

jcgd said:


> Install solar. It's subsidized and locks in your energy price. The numbers make pretty good sense in Ontario.


Right up until the time the government reneges and cancels the subsidies? :wink:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Hydro has been the biggest cash grab by this govt. in the last 5 years.
> 
> The imposition of the HST was another form of cash grab by the McG administration.
> 
> While, the entire time, the degenerate, grotesque fatcats at Hydro One, OPG, OEB, and OPA have been pis*ing consumers money away on their lavish expense accounts, benefits, and pensions.


I believe they are setting this up to try to sell OPG and Hydro One to interested parties. Bruce Power is interested in buying OPG. 
This is one of the reasons that they want to get rid of the stranded debt, although I see it as a cash cow, since (supposedly) that stranded debt was paid off by 2010. 
If someone has other info, please correct me. 

What I am seeing through this smoke and mirrors tactics is... that in order to make these entities saleable and allow the buyers to be able to increase the tiered rates in the future, 
they have to rearrange things and "clean house". 
There is an increase in the new tiered rates starting May 1..from 0.2c per kwh to 0.6 cents per kwh on top of the increase of this past January 1.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> Right up until the time the government reneges and cancels the subsidies? :wink:


I looked into that..the cost of financing a 10Kw solar plant + paying the HST on the purchase and installation..kind of negates any encourage to get off the grid. 
The other problem is the hours of sunshine available in the fall (Nov-Feb)to even generate power for your own use without having to buy power off the grid. 
The utilities will not pay you as much as they charge you per kwh,.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> I believe they are setting this up to try to sell OPG and Hydro One to interested parties. Bruce Power is interested in buying OPG.
> This is one of the reasons that they want to get rid of the stranded debt, although I see it as a cash cow, since (supposedly) that stranded debt was paid off by 2010.
> If someone has other info, please correct me.
> 
> ...


*@carver*, selling off OPG, Hydro One, etc. is not going to help, as long as it is done by the usual public asset divestiture process.
That has already been tried in the UK in the last 5 years.
It was also tried in the Thatcherite era, over 30 years ago (history rhymes, innit).

What ends up happening is that all the inefficiencies, bureaucracies, corruption, grafting, gluttony, and greed of the existing structure remains.
The buying corporation then has to raise rates significantly in order to fund all that inefficiency, and still generate a handsome profit for the squawking shareholders.

As part of the divestiture process, the in situ unions negotiate iron clad retention, raises, and pension terms.
In other words, the factors that created the problem in the first place are kept intact, and transferred over to the new model.

Then the buying corporation comes around, takes a look at the finances, and negotiates their own iron clad provisions for rate hikes and (lower) service guarantees.

Bottom line - nothing will change for the in situ unions and their outrageous compensation, and there will be punitive rate hikes for the consumers.

Eventually, the whole boondoggle will collapse upon itself, and the tax payer will be left holding the bag with millions of $$ of debt and liabilities.
The tax payer will be asked to bail out the defunct corporation.
A new entity will emerge from this process.
The debt will be amortized over 10 - 15 years and will be called, ummm.., let's say _debt retirement charge_.

Sound familiar?

Then the cycle will begin all over again.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

jcgd said:


> Install solar. It's subsidized and locks in your energy price. The numbers make pretty good sense in Ontario.


We are considering, not sure yet how seriously though, on purchasing a cottage or cabin in a slightly remote area of Ontario and having it off the grid. My husband is an electrician and I think it would be a fun project for him. More and more it seems like this may be a good idea for retirement if we stay in Canada.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> *@carver*,
> Bottom line - nothing will change for the in situ unions and their outrageous compensation, and there will be punitive rate hikes for the consumers.
> 
> *Eventually, the whole boondoggle will collapse upon itself, and the tax payer will be left holding the bag with millions of $$ of debt and liabilities.*
> ...


 Yes!


> Then the cycle will begin all over again.


So sad, but your prediction is probably spot on. We already had a taste of that with the cancelled gas plants and the discontinuation of coal generators in Nanticoke.
Debt retirement charge...they can add that back onto the bill whenever it suits them, they will call it something else to avoid confusion with the old debt retirement charge
which will be cancelled in January 2016...if the Fiberals survive that long.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Addy said:


> We are considering, not sure yet how seriously though, on purchasing a cottage or cabin in a slightly remote area of Ontario and having it off the grid. My husband is an electrician and I think it would be a fun project for him. More and more it seems like this may be a good idea for retirement if we stay in Canada.


A friend of mine bought this cottage and a small piece of land in the late 90s north of Madoc Ont. It already had a small solar panel and a battery power plant. 
I forget how many watts it was, but it wasn't very much, as the lighting was all 12 volt and only the well pump was run off that power plant. 
Anything else had to run off propane, such as the fridge and stove. They kept it for about 3 years and sold it. 

Home Depot and other big box stores are starting to carry these solar power plants. For a cottage (5-6 months of the year), it may be feasible, but you would need a source of wood heat if you wanted to stay in April or October.
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/300...kYAuw&ef_id=UzmPkQAABa4fqvdm:20140424154942:s


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

:frown: ... got to get a third job to keep up.


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## P_I (Dec 2, 2011)

*Ontario hydro bills set to rise (again) on Jan 1 2016*

Any chance of changing the article title to reflect this topic is Ontario specific? Not all forum members live in Ontario.


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## financialuproar (Jan 26, 2010)

Seems like forum folks who live in Ontario should buy a power generating stock or two. If the power company is truly ripping people off, then it must be a great investment.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

It's not the power companies that are making money...it's the intermediary bureaucratic agencies like the OPA, OPG, OEB, HydroOne etc.
That's where the money is going.

The HST on the ever-increasing bills is going into the black hole known as the provincial budget.

The power companies like TransCanada did make a small amount of money from the gas plant cancelation.
The cancelation penalty was hardly even a rounding error for companies of that size.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

How quickly they forget.................

It was only a few months ago, that praise was being heaped on unionized hydro line workers, working long hours in the bitter cold and freezing rain, trying to get hydro lines back up and services working again.

At the time,...the rising cost of overtime was mentioned,....but that wasn't going to be an issue....remember?

Until now, I suppose.......when memory fades and the media can take cheap shots at union workers who earn $60,000 a year base salary.......but can earn up to $100,000 with overtime pay !!

Well.............if they want to save the overtime pay..........don't schedule overtime.

Simple really..........but the general public may not be happy about freezing in the dark for a couple of weeks.

Yes, how quickly they forgot..........


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> How quickly they forget.................
> 
> It was only a few months ago, that praise was being heaped on unionized hydro line workers, working long hours in the bitter cold and freezing rain, trying to get hydro lines back up and services working again.
> 
> At the time,...the rising cost of overtime was mentioned,....but that wasn't going to be an issue....remember?


Oh, I see now.:rolleyes2: The current increase in hydro rates and the slight increase as of May1 is to pay for the Toronto and southern Ontario ice storm power restoration.
Makes sense, I suppose, but why don't they take the "debt retirement charge" and change that to "emergency power restoration charge"..then at least you know you
are being charged for something that has occurred in the last year or two..not many years ago due to waste at the former Ontario Hydro. 

These are the extra charges that have nothing to do with energy consumption, where I suppose the generators are making a profit. 

*Delivery*
=========
Transmission	$0.0122/kWh
Hydro Ottawa Delivery	$0.0213/kWh
Rate Rider for Disposition of Global Adjustment Account	-$0.0011/kWh**
Hydro Ottawa Fixed Charge	$9.55/month
Smart Meter Entity Charge	$0.79/month
Low Voltage Services Charge	$0.00006/kWh
Delivery Line Loss Charge	See below for calculation***

Regulatory
========
Regulatory Charge	$0.0057/kWh****
Debt Retirement
*Debt Retirement Charge	$0.00694/kWh******


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

sags said:


> Until now, I suppose.......when memory fades and the media can take cheap shots at union workers who earn $60,000 a year base salary.......but can earn up to $100,000 with overtime pay !!


sags, the money isn't going to low-level line workers repairing electricity poles in the middle of the night.
The money is going to the fatcats further above in the food chain...10 fatcats and paper pushers for each 1 line worker.

You are the one that's forgetting that HydroOne pension report, which clearly showed the outrageous compensation of the back-office bureaucrats.
It surprises me that you are perfectly okay blowing away millions of $$ on these outrageous compensation programs (which are nothing more than fake job creation) out of your tax dollars, just because they are a unionized shop.
Your philosophy is - leave them alone, they are unionized.

As for the line workers making $100K (with overtime), once you add in their other benefits (incl. pensions), their annualized compensation is probably well over $120K.
They are doing very well, it would seem.
They are within the top 3% of income earners in the country, as per that StatsCan report that the provincial govt. is using to raise income taxes.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> As for the line workers making $100K (with overtime), once you add in their other benefits (incl. pensions), their annualized compensation is probably well over $120K.
> They are doing very well, it would seem.
> They are within the top 3% of income earners in the country, as per that StatsCan report that the provincial govt. is using to raise income taxes.


These salaries are on par with construction electricians working on the high rises in Vancouver. I can attest second hand (via my spouse) to this, first hand if you consider I saw his paycheques. Now he makes half that working for the Canadian Forces and loves his job... which reinforces the believe that money isn't everything.


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## realist (Apr 8, 2011)

Good! Electricity has been dramatically under priced in Ontario for too long! I'm getting tired of keeping all of your electric bills lower through subsidies that end up on MY tax bill! 

Yes, there should be mechanisms to protect the old/the poor/the otherwise at risk but there is no reason for me/us to be subsidizing the electric bill of a guy living in his McMansion.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't think base pay of $60k is too out of line for electricians. If they are consistently racking up overtime, maybe they should hire more.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Harold,

When you write about "unionized" workers, I don't include higher management in that group, as it has been my experience that management doesn't normally belong to the union, due to the natural conflict of interest between management and unions.

If some of those outrageous pensions, are unionized workers..........then I would agree with you.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

realist said:


> Good! Electricity has been dramatically under priced in Ontario for too long! I'm getting tired of keeping all of your electric bills lower through subsidies that end up on MY tax bill!
> 
> Yes, there should be mechanisms to protect the old/the poor/the otherwise at risk but there is no reason for me/us to be subsidizing the electric bill of a guy living in his *McMansion.*


LoL! I am old/retired, disabled and soon to have my Nortel pension wound up rely on the welfare of the post McGuinty government. I'm a bit above the poverty level ($20K per year),
but still need all the help I can get and live in a 42 year old working-class neighbourhood house that requires a lot of repairs now. 

If you could subsidize my electricity bill (around $120 a month now with these smart meter increases..used to be about $60 every two months )..I would really appreciate it.:biggrin:


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

carver, you should be helped out in other ways (OAS/GIS/disability), not necessarily with everyone across the board getting lower electricity rates.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> carver, you should be helped out in other ways (OAS/GIS/disability), not necessarily with everyone across the board getting lower electricity rates.


Lol! The Federal gov't doesn't want us living in "McMansions" while collecting GIS...you have to be BELOW POVERTY LEVEL to even collect it...and that will depend on what I have left to 
live on in the future. I am getting an age and disabiltity income tax reduction though..so far only my cat is eating catfood.
At least the GIS will help to pay for my monthly rising hydro rates. 



> GIS
> If you are a single, widowed or *divorced pensioner* $747.86	$16,728 (individual income)


 Income -------------- Max GIS ------Combined OAS/GIS ----- Monthly allowance
$20,688.00 - $20,735.99-----212.72------$764.26----------------$212.72


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Carverman you need to get a roommate in


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## realist (Apr 8, 2011)

I did the math a year or two ago when the topic of hydro rates was in the news and I think it worked out to be around $78 pp/year (If I'm remembering correctly, it might have been more. The $ value in the newspaper article / population of Ontario) to keep the prices below market rates. Which doesn't sound like much but that is per person, not per taxpayer. That essentially means that if you are a high electricity user you are getting more "free" electricity than what you are paying in the taxes and are thus being subsidized by all the people who use less.

One option that they use for water in many places is the idea of a "block tariff". E.g. You get a set volume of water at a base rate, and if you use more than that the price starts to go up. 

Another easy fix would be a by-law requiring all new large buildings (e.g. condos, offices, apartments etc.) to install individual metering rather than sharing the bill across all tenants.


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