# Safety Deposit Boxes



## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Stuff in your safety deposit box may not be so safe.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/safety-deposit-boxes-missing-contents-1.5814592


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ No kidding ... and I haven't read the article yet.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

What the article doesn't mention if the people paid their fees or not. The article says that the safes were drilled in 2012. If they are coming now to complain, that's 8 years after. At the very least, the banks would have paid back the fees from 2012 to now. It is very clear that if you do not pay the fees or the box is abandum then the bank will empty the contents. In our case, my mother had safety boxes all over the place, I found most of them when she had her stroke. There was one, I was not aware of that said that it wasn't paid. They sent a letter indicating if we didn't pay they would remove the contents. I couldn't find the key so paid the $250 for it. 

There is more to this story.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I never understood the value in these boxes. Buy a safe and/or hide your stuff at home.

I was involved with drilling’s from time to time. If I was running the bank, I’d ditch this service entirely. The entire offering is nothing but a nuisance.

the administration is often very poor.....you’re often dealing with boxes with deceased owners. These cases are extremely rare and I’d bet the majority of boxes were emptied by the clients. In other cases, the contents get lost or misplaced. There’s a million boxes in the TD network alone. What’s a natural error rate when humans are involved?

I wonder what a home insurance policy would say about this? i suppose a bank owned insurance company would deny the claim. Lol.

happy to get into processes if folks are interested.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The contents were either:

a) not there to begin with.

b) removed by a family member prior to the drilling.

c) stolen by bank employees.

What is the procedure for drilling the boxes ? Normally, even to collect overnight deposits there are always 2 bank employees performing the function.

Are there no lists kept of who is accessing the safety deposit boxes ? Names, dates, times ?

Are there no security cameras in the room ? Where in the bank were the contents stored while waiting to be picked up by customers ?

If the bank drills the safety deposit boxes and then has to store the contents somewhere in the bank for years.........what was the point ?

It sounds like the RCMP should be investigating, so that it is all made public.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Unclaimed bank accounts are sent to the Bank of Canada. The contents of unpaid security boxes should be stored there as well.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

In a similar story vein, I did an in-depth study of insurance companies a couple years ago, and was shocked at how many paid up insurance policies are never collected.

The insurance companies were making no effort to contact the beneficiaries. They just kept the money.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

sags said:


> The contents were either:
> 
> a) not there to begin with.
> 
> ...


two employees are present along with the driller at the time of drilling. I personally participated in all drillings. The contents are removed, inventoried and placed in a sealed envelope. The sealed enevelope (never opened again) is then stored in the vault. Each envelope is then counted annually. attempts to contact clients by mail and phone before any drilling takes place. Storage does become an issue. My last branch had 6 branches merge into it over its 100+ year history. We had contents going back 30-40 years. Finding space ro store stuff becomes an issue. Every access to a box, whether by a client or during a drilling is documented....time, date, etc.

I don’t believe the vault itself had cameras. 

The RCMP is overkill.....lol. the items were either removed by the client, or they are somewhere in the vault. You could, but wouldn’t, have to open EVERY envelope, to be 100% sure. 
there are much easier ways to steal...especially without a 2nd employee looking over your shoulder as there is in this case. IF you have co-conspirator, then there are bigger “scores” to be had, then going through boxes.......95% of which are empty when drilled.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> The contents were either:
> 
> a) not there to begin with.
> 
> ...


Over the last two years, I have been in 4 different banks, 7 different branches in their safe area (my mom's safes were every where). Some of the branches knew my mom well and knew of me (my mom talked about me a lot) In all cases, I had to show the proper legal paper work to get in (POA, with medical certifications). I had to sign in with a bank employee after they verified my id. The employee had to put their id on the sheet, and I had to sign in also. There was a complete record in all case of who went in exactly. 

We went in the vault together, they escorted me to a private room, and all had security cameras. In one case, my mother had added an extra lock that I couldn't pick (she was mentally deteriorating and paranoid). I had to bring in full size bolt cutters. The security guard came and escorted both the bank employee and myself into the safe (the guard waited just outside) then they escorted me to my private room where I cut the lock, and emptied the contents of paper into my Costco size shopping and Rubbermaid totes. In this particular case, when I left, the employee and security guard doubled checked that the vault was secured.

The procedure for drilling was the employee calls a bank manager, in my case, I had to sign a whole bunch of stuff, and then they made an appointment for a person that is certified to drill these holes. I came back on that day, they drilled, put in a new lock and I was able to get the contents out, and close out the box.

My point is that I do think that many of these boxes are left by elderly that forget to give their family the details and forget to pay. Such as in my mother's case when she became incapacitated. Prior to that, she had told my siblings and myself what we should find in some of the boxes, and they weren't there. As we have been cleaning out my parents home, we have found some of these items that should have been in the bank safe because she took them out and forgot. In a couple of cases, my mother gave me a family heirloom only to find out that it was promised to my older sibling. 

In my case, the kids are pretty level headed, communicate and agree on most things. We don't get hung up on stuff. However, I can see how some families think the bank may have stolen something.



sags said:


> Unclaimed bank accounts are sent to the Bank of Canada. The contents of unpaid security boxes should be stored there as well.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The bank branch in question opened the security deposit box by accident. They apparently don't keep any record of who had accessed the box.

Stealing by "the TD bank" may not be likely, but stealing at the branch level has happened often enough, from tellers who siphon off money from senior's accounts to mortgage lenders who alter mortgage applications to unqualified friends, to warrant a look from outside the bank.

The RCMP should investigate why bank protocols weren't followed at those branches. Who knows what could be discovered ?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

"My father told me there was a lot of money in there" but he didn't bother to pay for the box rental, a few dollars a year. "I don't know what was in there but there was more than that. I'm going to sue". Good luck with that.What proof do you have? None.
I know banks sometimes make mistakes but this is ridiculous. I had a safety deposit box full of valuables and I made sure the box rent was paid, and maintained an account at the bank they could take the rent from. I didn't forget about it and come back 10 or 20 years later.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> The bank branch in question opened the security deposit box by accident. They apparently don't keep any record of who had accessed the box.
> 
> Stealing by "the TD bank" may not be likely, but stealing at the branch level has happened often enough, from tellers who siphon off money from senior's accounts to mortgage lenders who alter mortgage applications to unqualified friends, to warrant a look from outside the bank.
> 
> The RCMP should investigate why bank protocols weren't followed at those branches. Who knows what could be discovered ?


I missed that part about the accident. I would definitely be upset. There needs to be a full review, I am not sure the RCMP are the right one to do this. This is about process and why they were not followed. I feel for the families.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> "My father told me there was a lot of money in there" but he didn't bother to pay for the box rental, a few dollars a year. "I don't know what was in there but there was more than that. I'm going to sue". Good luck with that. What proof do you have? None.
> I know banks sometimes make mistakes but this is ridiculous. I had a safety deposit box full of valuables and I made sure the box rent was paid, and maintained an account at the bank they could take the rent from. I didn't forget about it and come back 10 or 20 years later.


This was a pretty big mistake. I do know before my mother's capacity started to diminish, she used to take a picture of all the items in her safety deposit with a Polaroid Camera and a copy of the signature sheet with the date and a calendar (this was really old school) We thought it was overkill and she was paranoid. Apparently, not.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> I missed that part about the accident. I would definitely be upset. There needs to be a full review, I am not sure the RCMP are the right one to do this. This is about process and why they were not followed. I feel for the families.


Human error. A vault can have multiple Boxes with the same ID number. This happens when branches merge and the “nests” of boxes are physically moved from the closing branch to the new location. The process was highly detailed at TD but when you’re drilling dozens of boxes a day and there’s 3 people cramped into a vault (one of which is an external party with a drill in his hand), I can see how the rare error occurs. Doesn’t make it right, just explaining how it might happen.
from What I recall, the entire box database (1 million boxes) was transitioned to a new software platform sometime this century. Even the smallest margin of error could have caused this.

I’d bet the boxes are on average, the oldest accounts a bank holds.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I do recall one story....watching the news one night about a police raid on an illegal gaming house.

cops show up at 8am the next morning at the branch with a warrant. I casually asked, what it was about....cop said...”did you watch the news last night?”. Was hoping to find something interesting when we opened the box....it was empty.

I have found the odd (compromising) polaroid photo and unlabelled video tapes though!


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> This was a pretty big mistake. I do know before my mother's capacity started to diminish, she used to take a picture of all the items in her safety deposit with a Polaroid Camera and a copy of the signature sheet with the date and a calendar (this was really old school) We thought it was overkill and she was paranoid. Apparently, not.


I bet she paid the box rent too. At least if there was a dispute you have evidence. In the other case there is nothing to prove the box holder did not remove the items themself, or some relative or other person did not find the key and help themselves, or that the items were ever in there in the first place. One of the reasons to rent such a box is that no one knows what is in it.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> I never understood the value in these boxes. Buy a safe and/or hide your stuff at home.


Homes can be robbed and the presence of a safe at your home can paint a target on your home. If you keep a safe at home, you have to be extremely quiet about it and make sure nobody encounters it.

Those of us who rent apartments probably can't keep valuables in a home safe. Property managers and maintenance people can come wandering onto the premises and you don't have too much control over who enters your space... e.g. in case of water leaks or other maintenance emergencies (and you might be away at the time). Additionally, a home safe would have to be properly installed and attached somewhere so that it can't just be lifted and removed.

Being an electronics nerd, I once wired up a hidden alarm system which sent me SMS notifications if someone entered when I was away. I was away one weekend and got my SMS alarm. So I phoned my land line number and to my surprise... a man answered my phone inside my apartment. Turns out it was the fire department responding to a fire issue in the building. They obviously wouldn't rob me, but it shows how people can just enter your space, and you might not even know about it!

I prefer the bank safe deposit box. I visit mine somewhat frequently (at least once a year) to keep an eye on it.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Homes can be robbed and the presence of a safe at your home can paint a target on your home. If you keep a safe at home, you have to be extremely quiet about it and make sure nobody encounters it.
> 
> Those of us who rent apartments probably can't keep valuables in a home safe. Property managers and maintenance people can come wandering onto the premises and you don't have too much control over who enters your space... e.g. in case of water leaks or other maintenance emergencies (and you might be away at the time). Additionally, a home safe would have to be properly installed and attached somewhere so that it can't just be lifted and removed.
> 
> ...


Never thought of apartment dwellers. 

I don’t think I have any documents that can’t be replaced. I suppose wills, passports might be a bit of a pain. We had a box for a few years........rarely went into it.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Unclaimed bank accounts are sent to the Bank of Canada. The contents of unpaid security boxes should be stored there as well.


Who will pay for this?
What about unpaid storage units?
Assets in seized houses?
PO boxes?


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Some documents many not be able to be replaced. Others may take too long to replace and be too difficult to replace when you really need them.

We have a box for papers. We are in the box four times a year. Until six or seven years ago the box could be written off as a cost of investments. Not so now. We travel for two months at a time, twice a year. DW puts jewelry, etc. in the box for safekeeping when we leave. We upgraded to a larger box when we had no home for a year.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Stumbled across this video


----------

