# Personal Money transfer system



## Metamorph (Jun 3, 2011)

Hi,

Im glad I found out about this forum. So I hope someone can help me. Just a short info aboutmyself. I am currently in India and Used to travel back and forth from toronto to india. My current work visa has expired and I am back in india now (I work for a company that focuses on renewable energy). Anyway I have a personal bank account with B M O and am trying to transfer funds from it to my family in toronto. Not only can my family use some money but so can I.

I tried registering an account online but wasnt able to as they said my card number cannot be recognized. I havent been to yyz in about a year now BUT that shouldnt be the reason? what could it be? I believe a person can have bank accounts anywhere in the world and have sums in it for as long as possible.

Please advise me on some solutions/resolutions.

Thanks

Krish


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Try telephoning BMO and asking them what the problem is. Maybe all they need is updated client information -like a current address? But there may also be some restrictions on non-residents having Canadian bank accounts. You can't just have a bank account "anywhere in the world" - most governments are concerned about tax avoidance and money laundering. The ones that aren't are the ones profiting from tax avoiders and money launderers.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I don't know whether this works internationally or not, but have you looked into transferring money from your BOM account in Canada to your relative's account by e-mail? My daughter and I do this regularly, but it's always within Canada; maybe it can't be done in your situation.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Why can't you simply write a cheque and mail it? All these electronic options are costly, full of restrictions and not really straightforward at all. We're discussing something similar in another thread.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Karen said:


> I don't know whether this works internationally or not, but have you looked into transferring money from your BOM account in Canada to your relative's account by e-mail? My daughter and I do this regularly, but it's always within Canada; maybe it can't be done in your situation.


EMT's will only work within Canada.

I work for BMO. I don't think it will cost you a fee but see if they can do some type of a Third Party Transfer for you. It is quite hard to get them to do one, as they will usually recommend EMT's (which wont work in your case) and it will need to be from a BMO account (yours) to a BMO account (your family).

Call them, explain the situation, and see what they'll do for you.

You could mail a cheque like TRM suggested, but I would see if you can get that Third Party Transfer done first.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Thanks for the information, KaeJS

I send cheques as gifts to my step-sons in the US on their birthdays and at Christmas, and it takes up to six weeks for their bank to clear them - and I'm talking small amounts ($100 or $200). I asked my Scotiabank manager if there was any way around this, and she suggested using an international bank draft. I tried that last Cfhristmas and their bank held that just as long.

I know I could have the bank wire the money for me, but I would need their bank account information, which I don't have, and besides that I think it would be too expensive for such small amounts.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have heard that people use Paypal for money transfers. I think they both need to register though.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

There are some huge cost for PayPal transfers. I don't know if they've changed it, but it was up to 2.5% of the total transfer.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

That's right, PA.

So the thing is, everyone wants to use "electronic" methods and not use cheques because they're "old fashioned". Yet no one wants to pay the fees associated with modern methods.

It seems we can't have it both ways.

I say it's better to be old fashioned and pay no/low fees than to be modern and be gouged to death on fees.

But that's just me, apparently.


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## houska (Feb 6, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> There are some huge cost for PayPal transfers. I don't know if they've changed it, but it was up to 2.5% of the total transfer.


PayPal transfers that are between individuals (not to purchase goods) are free. But you need to go through a rigmarole to register and link your bank accounts. And sometimes PayPal screws up and then takes a while to figure it out. They impose an arbitrary limit, which in our case is $1000, don't know if same for other accounts.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I thought there was a limit to the transfer amounts to $100. Has that changed?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I paid a few hundred dollars for a trip by EMT, so the limit is more than $100.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

If you're paying, you don't pay the fees. The person receiving does. I paid for a trip too, and they allowed the first amounts to be put through, but anything after that amount (I can't remember the amount) there was a 3% surcharge, and they said it was because of their fees.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I don't know anything about PayPal, but different banks have different limits with e-mail transfers. I've used both Scotiabank, which has a $1,000 limit every 24 hours and TD which has recently increased their limit - I think to $3,000. Both banks charge the sender of the funds, not the recipient. As far as I know, TD still charges $1.50, but the last time I e-mailed money from Scotiabank, the charge had dropped to $1.00 - very reasonable, in my opinion.


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## Metamorph (Jun 3, 2011)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Try telephoning BMO and asking them what the problem is. Maybe all they need is updated client information -like a current address? But there may also be some restrictions on non-residents having Canadian bank accounts. You can't just have a bank account "anywhere in the world" - most governments are concerned about tax avoidance and money laundering. The ones that aren't are the ones profiting from tax avoiders and money launderers.


Well firstly I have a resident address there because I have a drivers license to that add. The adress listed for my home bank and drivers is the relative who I was staying with. about not having a bank account anywhere. I have travel to many places where my work has taken me. Every bank atleast needed a minimum amount for me to open. I mean they are playing around with my money and your money right? LoL.. that is how banks work? but Im going off topic and not trying to resolve my issue. Thanks for the response..yes i emailed a rep and they said currently bmo has "chip" atm/debit cards and I dont.(I have the older one) thats the reason why I wasnt able to make an online bmo account


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## Metamorph (Jun 3, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> EMT's will only work within Canada.
> 
> I work for BMO. I don't think it will cost you a fee but see if they can do some type of a Third Party Transfer for you. It is quite hard to get them to do one, as they will usually recommend EMT's (which wont work in your case) and it will need to be from a BMO account (yours) to a BMO account (your family).
> 
> ...


Hey, Thanks for your response. Maybe since you are an employee you will be more accustomed to the rules there? anyway..Whatever method I use.. I cannot get into my account! LoL...my fiances mother is flying back to toronto in a day and I was thinking of giving her my pin and card and try to access it there.?? I know its not ethical BUT what else can I do? I mean if the bmo rep answered my question by saying that i need the new chip card that means I probably wont be able to access through an atm machine at the bank? I got advise from a canadian mastercard employee who said...I might be able to apply for a bmo mstrcard and link it to my chequing account? That way I can just take the money out from here? its so frustrating that this is my account i get a statement every month at my toronto addrss (which shows that its still active) and I cant gain anything inside. I have money that I could really use right now..not a lot for many people but in the thousands (a lot for me).

sorry for the long message and thank you to everyone who is assisting me in resolving this issue within the thread!


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Metamorph said:


> ... Thanks for the response..yes i emailed a rep and they said currently bmo has "chip" atm/debit cards and I dont.(I have the older one) thats the reason why I wasnt able to make an online bmo account


In other words, in spite of your Canadian mailing address, you have been sufficiently out of touch with them that you never received an updated card. Did the rep have a solution as to how you could get one when you are living abroad?


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## Metamorph (Jun 3, 2011)

OhGreatGuru said:


> In other words, in spite of your Canadian mailing address, you have been sufficiently out of touch with them that you never received an updated card. Did the rep have a solution as to how you could get one when you are living abroad?


Yeah I guess so..and I have been away for only a year? No not really.. they said to call in or walk in. LoL..I dont know which part of me not being there was not understood. Im still waiting to hear back after I reminded that Im not there now and wont be for awhile..

Maybe i'll call


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

It appears that there are a couple of issues at play here.
First, you are no longer a resident of Canada.
Your TRV has expired.
You should have withdrawn all your funds from BMO before leaving the country, since your return is uncertain.

Secondly, _assuming_ your residency is sorted out, transfering money to India (or wherever) should be a matter of a wire transfer.
You could walk into your BMO branch, give them your Indian bank's name, address, SWIFT or ABA code and that should be it.
I have no idea about processing times for India - could take weeks.
I have transfered funds from Canadian bank to US bank and it took only a few days.

The issue with your current situation is that you no longer have a Canadian address or a Canadian status.
The bank could simply refuse to issue you a new card.


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## Metamorph (Jun 3, 2011)

HaroldCrump said:


> It appears that there are a couple of issues at play here.
> First, you are no longer a resident of Canada.
> Your TRV has expired.
> You should have withdrawn all your funds from BMO before leaving the country, since your return is uncertain.
> ...


No thats not the issue really, I still have a Canadian address where I am receiving a monthly statement of my bank activities every month. an $8.50 charge is deducted. and secondly if I was able to walk into a bmo branch physically im sure it would solve all my problems and I wouldnt have to be on this forum. Thanks I guess a swift transfer might work? it is my account.. I didnt withdraw my money because I never thought not having the "new" debit card would restrict me from accessing my account.:S 

thanks for your response


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Metamorph said:


> Hi,
> 
> Im glad I found out about this forum. So I hope someone can help me. Just a short info aboutmyself. I am currently in India and Used to travel back and forth from toronto to india. My current work visa has expired and I am back in india now (I work for a company that focuses on renewable energy). Anyway I have a personal bank account with B M O and am trying to transfer funds from it to my family in toronto. Not only can my family use some money but so can I.
> 
> ...


The problem may be the fact that either the client card has expired (and BMO attempted to send you a new one, to a wrong address), or BMO's website has more security policies enforced than the other big banks. And it's doing something like "geolocation" - it will see your IP address and will map it to a country/region. And they will reject anything coming outside Canada. There may be also an issue with the security questions that you may have established for your account. Once you changed the computers (even inside Canada), the system may have prompted you to answer the questions and you failed them. And the account got locked.

I see absolutely no reason why it shouldn't work from abroad. I was doing the same thing - querying my account outside canada, with TD, and it was always working.

Try another thing: establish a remote terminal connection setup with one of your relative's computer in Canada, and log on to your account using that PC, as if you were in Canada. Another, more risky alternative is to use a HTTPS/SSL aware web proxy from India, which would make the target website see you as coming from a canadian IP address.

A third alternative is to ask one of the relatives (if you trust them absolutely) to use your card directly through their computers. And after that you could change your password (assuming it's not a PIN).

It should be a simpler situation than, let's say, trying to withdraw money overseas, through ATM machines. That one is more complicated and more prone to account locks.

Hope that helps.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Karen said:


> Thanks for the information, KaeJS
> 
> I send cheques as gifts to my step-sons in the US on their birthdays and at Christmas, and it takes up to six weeks for their bank to clear them - and I'm talking small amounts ($100 or $200). I asked my Scotiabank manager if there was any way around this, and she suggested using an international bank draft. I tried that last Cfhristmas and their bank held that just as long.
> 
> I know I could have the bank wire the money for me, but I would need their bank account information, which I don't have, and besides that I think it would be too expensive for such small amounts.


Yes, cheques that need to be deposited/cashed in a country different than the one where the sender's account is, are treated like a wire transfer, even in a worse way - in the sense that the fees are difficult to control. A better upgrade is indeed, a bank draft (because the beneficiary's bank will know at least that the funds are covered/secured). But the best is wire transfers - for large amounts. For small amounts, use Moneygram, Western union, paypal.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> It appears that there are a couple of issues at play here.
> First, you are no longer a resident of Canada.
> Your TRV has expired.
> You should have withdrawn all your funds from BMO before leaving the country, since your return is uncertain.
> ...


I beg to differ. For the purpose of withdrawing your own, hard-earned money, it doesn't matter what you residency status is. You should be able to remotely coordinate with BMO (even by making an international phone call in "collect" mode i.e. paid by BMO) in order to have your funds wire-transfered to your other country. True what you said though, in the sense that it should be wiser to get all of your money out, while you are still in Canada. But you see, sometimes this isn't possible - let's say your money is in a discount brokerage account, with the market bottomed out, so you still need to wait for a few years for the market to stabilize and sell+transfer everything.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

smihaila said:


> I beg to differ. For the purpose of withdrawing your own, hard-earned money, it doesn't matter what you residency status is.


There is grey area here.
Yes, it is your money and you have the right to withdraw it.
However, the BMO bank account (I assume) is a chequing/savings account opened on the basis of Canadian residency.
I assume the poster had to present a Canadian visa, a SIN Card and other documentation to open the account.
Since the visa has now expired, and the SIN# is of no use, the status of the bank account is in question.
I don't believe an account holder can or should continue to operate the account as if nothing has changed.

I shudder at some of the suggestions made above - such as faking your IP address, faking your physical location, having a friend/relative use the credentials on your behalf and attempt to withdraw the money.

Why is it so hard to call up the BMO branch, speak to an account rep, and come clean with the situation?
Tell them your current status and ask them what options are there for withdrawing the money.
It appears that the poster is doing everything other than picking up a phone and calling the bank and speaking to a person.


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## Zara Mari (May 19, 2011)

Metamorph said:


> I tried registering an account online but wasnt able to as they said my card number cannot be recognized. I havent been to yyz in about a year now BUT that shouldnt be the reason? what could it be? I believe a person can have bank accounts anywhere in the world and have sums in it for as long as possible.Krish


Most of the banks around the world require minimum amount to be able to keep your account, say $300, it depends. Also, you should have recorded transactions (any kind like withdrawals, deposits, etc.) atleast once every 2 months, I'm not sure of the exact frequency though. It's better that you write to the bank, registered mail and email and tell them your concerns. Make sure that you leave your contact information so they can easily communicate with you.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I thought it was 6 months before your account goes dormant. I have an account that I only use a few times in bursts, once every 6-12 months. Sometimes I have to call and ask for reactivation if I haven't used the account in more than 6 months. It's a bit of a pain but the account serves a critical albeit occasional function. It must be kept.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

smihaila said:


> Once you changed the computers (even inside Canada), the system may have prompted you to answer the questions and you failed them. And the account got locked...


TD has 6 questions that they use to validate that you are who you say you are, but they only use them when the IP address changes.


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## cazaubon (Jan 18, 2011)

I use paypal to send money back and forth to myself in the US/Canada, it works fine. I've also used email transactions between myself and a fellow BMO account holder from the US. BTW, if you are not really using the account, you should ask to be switched to the Programme Pratique service, fees are only $4 per month instead of $8.50.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I am getting married next month and we are co-ordinating acocunts. We still had to go into the bank, show ID, to join the accounts. And we already have accounts withthe institution. I think they are all aworried about money laundering, and privacy issues in the event they are liable for an error.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> There is grey area here.
> Yes, it is your money and you have the right to withdraw it.
> However, the BMO bank account (I assume) is a chequing/savings account opened on the basis of Canadian residency.
> I assume the poster had to present a Canadian visa, a SIN Card and other documentation to open the account.
> ...


Resident for taxation purposes may be different than resident for, let's say immigration purposes. Also, a SIN card is not mandatory (even if such card exists, it may be a temporary issued one - i.e. numbers starting with a 9).

You are viewing the situation from a purely Canadian perspective, one can see that you've never been in a Canadian immigration/foreign context.

Think also about people who might work for let's say 20 years in Canada and then retire to other countries (those people may be even Canadian born). Based on what you state, those people should never be entitled to get their pensions if those pensions were from private company plans. Those people may also have RRSPs and still be considered Canadian residents for tax purposes (if they opt also to honestly declare all your worldwide income with Canada's CRA)



HaroldCrump said:


> I shudder at some of the suggestions made above - such as faking your IP address, faking your physical location, having a friend/relative use the credentials on your behalf and attempt to withdraw the money.


There is nothing sort of illegal with such procedure. We live in a global world and it's about www - world wide web, right? Why shouldn't I be able to access my account from abroad? If the bank has implemented a narrow minded, stupid system, we have to overcome it. You aren't "faking" anything, as long as it's only you knowing the credentials to access the acct (or a very close relative - again, why this lack of trust between spouses or parent and son in this North American societies?) anyways.

Other global payment systems such as Paypal or major credit card providers, also have no issue with that.



HaroldCrump said:


> Why is it so hard to call up the BMO branch, speak to an account rep, and come clean with the situation?
> Tell them your current status and ask them what options are there for withdrawing the money.
> It appears that the poster is doing everything other than picking up a phone and calling the bank and speaking to a person.


The OP mentioned that he already attempted to contact them, and the recommended advice was illogical (opening another credit card, linking it to his chequing/savings acct etc).


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

kcowan said:


> TD has 6 questions that they use to validate that you are who you say you are, but they only use them when the IP address changes.


Correct. And the questions that you can get to chose them are so limited, that you in fact forget what you chose. And this forces it to capture them somewhere persistently. Which defeats the whole purpose of the increased security


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

smihaila said:


> Resident for taxation purposes may be different than resident for, let's say immigration purposes. Also, a SIN card is not mandatory (even if such card exists, it may be a temporary issued one - i.e. numbers starting with a 9).


I totally understand the difference between resident for tax purposes and resident from immigration perspective.
That is not the issue here.
The OP was an immigrant worker.
He must have had a SIN#.
He would not have been able to open a Canadian bank account without a Canadian visa and a SIN#.
However, neither of these credentials is valid any more.
I'm not saying that the OP should not get his money back - of course, he should.
All I'm saying is that he's not doing the right things to get his money back.



> Think also about people who might work for let's say 20 years in Canada and then retire to other countries (those people may be even Canadian born). Based on what you state, those people should never be entitled to get their pensions if those pensions were from private company plans. Those people may also have RRSPs and still be considered Canadian residents for tax purposes (if they opt also to honestly declare all your worldwide income with Canada's CRA)


Totally different situation.
Tax residency has nothing to do with this situation.



> The OP mentioned that he already attempted to contact them, and the recommended advice was illogical (opening another credit card, linking it to his chequing/savings acct etc).


No, all he has done is emailed some undefined person at the bank.
The fact that he has been talking to the wrong person is evident from the suggestion he received - open a Mastercard A/C and link with chequing A/C and "withdraw" your funds by transfering from chequing A/C to the credit card A/C.
And then what?
Spend the money by using the credit card?
Or do a cash withdrawal from the CC?
Where? In India?


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> He must have had a SIN#.
> He would not have been able to open a Canadian bank account without a Canadian visa and a SIN#.


When my late American husband moved here in 2006, I added him to my bank accounts at ScotiaBank, and no documentation at all was asked for - not even a SIN number. We also opened accounts for his Dad (who lived with us) at the same time, in all three of our names jointly.

In the meantime, Bill and Dad both applied for and received temporary SIN cards (beginning with a 9) so that they could file their income tax returns. But when Dad died three years later and we went to the bank to transfer his accounts to our names alone, the bank said the rules had changed and they couldn't make the change without my husband having a permanent SIN number - his temporary number would not do. Although the bank told us that this was a legal requirement, I suspect the problem was that the bank's data system was not programmed to accept a SIN number starting with a 9; whatever the case, it left us in a dilemma because Bill's permanent residence status hadn't come through yet, which meant he was unable to get a regular SIN number. So the accounts had to stay in our three names until Bill's PR status finally came through a few months later, and he was able to get a regular SIN number, resolving the problem.

I assume that the reason we were able to open the accounts in the first place is that I was a Canadian, and the bank used my SIN number - the T5s always came with my SIN number on them.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Karen said:


> I assume that the reason we were able to open the accounts in the first place is that I was a Canadian, and the bank used my SIN number - the T5s always came with my SIN number on them.


I believe that is correct.
The case of your late husband is quite different than the poster's.
Your late husband had valid status in Canada by virtue of marriage to you.
The poster's status was limited to the duration of his employment.
With the end of employment, the status has also ended.

Anyhow, I don't have a readymade solution for how he can transfer his money.
My suggestion to the poster is simply to pick up a good ol' phone and talk to someone at the branch.
The most seemingly complex problems can sometimes be resolved simply by talking to the right people.
In this case, it could be a simple matter of the poster providing the BMO branch with the transfer instructions to a bank of his choice in India.
It may take weeks, but it should get done.

In years past, before the days of fancy online banking and chip enabled cards, I have moved money legally across three continents simply by writing or speaking to banch managers and providing them the transfer instructions.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

You're right, Harold. Although computers have made life easier for us in many ways, in other ways they have complicated our lives beyond belief. A good example, the case I mentioned in my previous post where the bank's database wouldn't allow a SIN number starting with a 9. In the old days, the bank officer could have simply written in the temporary number.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

Karen said:


> When my late American husband moved here in 2006, I added him to my bank accounts at ScotiaBank, and no documentation at all was asked for - not even a SIN number. We also opened accounts for his Dad (who lived with us) at the same time, in all three of our names jointly.
> 
> In the meantime, Bill and Dad both applied for and received temporary SIN cards (beginning with a 9) so that they could file their income tax returns. But when Dad died three years later and we went to the bank to transfer his accounts to our names alone, the bank said the rules had changed and they couldn't make the change without my husband having a permanent SIN number - his temporary number would not do. Although the bank told us that this was a legal requirement, I suspect the problem was that the bank's data system was not programmed to accept a SIN number starting with a 9; whatever the case, it left us in a dilemma because Bill's permanent residence status hadn't come through yet, which meant he was unable to get a regular SIN number. So the accounts had to stay in our three names until Bill's PR status finally came through a few months later, and he was able to get a regular SIN number, resolving the problem.


Another narrow minded bank then. When I was having temporary worker status and got my temporary SIN number, I had no issues whatsoever with opening a bank account (TD, National Bank, RBC) or even getting a credit card.


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> In this case, it could be a simple matter of the poster providing the BMO branch with the transfer instructions to a bank of his choice in India.
> It may take weeks, but it should get done.
> 
> In years past, before the days of fancy online banking and chip enabled cards, I have moved money legally across three continents simply by writing or speaking to banch managers and providing them the transfer instructions.


Unfortunately the wire money transfer system is has it's drawbacks too. An opaque system, whereas the sending bank refuses to tell you the total cost involved doing that transfer, when it's passing through many "hops". FOR SURE, the software platform used at the back-end (SWIFT or IBAN system) has everything in place to answer such questions, but intentionally the banks wants to make us believe it's opaque. That's why sometimes it's better to know a bank abroad with which the sender's bank has a "correspondence account" and have the receiver opening an acct with that bank. Or vice-versa. The sender should open an acct with a bank in Canada having direct correspondence acct with the bank in the destination country.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

smihaila said:


> Correct. And the questions that you can get to chose them are so limited, that you in fact forget what you chose. And this forces it to capture them somewhere persistently. Which defeats the whole purpose of the increased security


I guess I have a better memory. My first pet and my mother's maiden name never change, yet would be unkown to hackers.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

smihaila said:


> The sender should open an acct with a bank in Canada having direct correspondence acct with the bank in the destination country.


Yes this will avoid the capracious fees involved in wire transfers.

(When I transferred money from my Canaccord investment account to Bancomer in Mexico, BMO tried to impose a big fee. When I complained, Canaccord reversed it.)


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## smihaila (Apr 6, 2009)

kcowan said:


> I guess I have a better memory. My first pet and my mother's maiden name never change, yet would be unknown to hackers.


Not all those 6 questions are precise/like the ones you mentioned. Some of them might be fuzzy, such a date or a place when etc or favorite cartoon character. TD tries to collect questions from unrelated domains, they don't allow the user the freely define his own questions.

Also, some answers that you originally provided may have dashes, dots or other stuff. And if you have more than one cartoon characters or sports in your mind  and you fail to answer correctly, the TD's system won't choose another question from the pool but insist on the same one.

So, it's not that black and white and simple as you're trying to imply. Again, it's about how smart and flexible an IT system is made, to serve us properly.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Here are the 5 I choose:


> Question 1: What is your spouse's/partner's middle name?
> Question 2: When is your wedding anniversary? (Month and Year only)
> Question 3: What is the first name of the person you went to your prom with?
> Question 4: What street did your best friend in high school live on? (Enter full name of street only)
> Question 5: What is your father's middle name?


The only one that gave me trouble was #4 because it is St Steven and there are many choices for the answer. I use the simplest ststeven (actually not but the saint part is correct).


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