# More people losing jobs in Canada



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Bombardier is the next to dump 1750 employees on the EI. 
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/bombardier-eliminates-1-750-jobs-110235571.html

Hmm..companies are not buying business jets anymore, because they are too busy dumping employees. 


Newfoundland has declared that they are in recession. Alberta is..or not to far behind as well.
Premier Wynne still is dreaming of a balanced budget by 2018 and a Ontario pension plan.

Where is my magic mirror on the wall.....oh mirror..who is responsible........what?....did you tell Jim Prentice that?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Yeao, Canada in a deep sh.. and all Canada discussing everywhere FHRITP joke! Looks like this is the only our problem 
Canada is becoming more and more "banana republic", but a polite one  The only problem that 
prices for "bananas" (and other commodities) slumped


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

That is only half of the story.

The other half relates to the jobs that are being created...you know the figures that the Government is fond of touting.

Fact is, most of the jobs being created in Canada are not jobs that pay a decent living. They are low paying service industry jobs and many are less than full time. At the same time many large organizations are busy outsourcing medium pay clerical and admin jobs to lower cost offshore countries like Costa Rica, Panama, etc.

Loosing well paying manufacturing jobs and replacing them on a one to one basis with low paying part time service sector jobs is becoming a death spiral for the Canadian economy. We are quickly moving to a resources and service sector economy and leaving manufacturing behind.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

fraser said:


> That is only half of the story.
> 
> The other half relates to the jobs that are being created...you know the figures that the Government is fond of touting.
> 
> ...


 ... but how is that the Ontario Sunshine's List keeps getting bigger and salary keeps expanding?


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## none (Jan 15, 2013)

It's not.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ntarios-sunshine-list/article17721288/#adjust


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A local news story featured some new tech companies, and how developers are buying old factories and renovating them to suit their new tenants who desire wide open spaces, old brick walls, open ceilings.........basically a more upscale, urban "New York Loft" feel than a traditional office space. The press story was glowing on how these companies had outgrown their old space and desired more room for games rooms and work place lounges, including a rooftop terrace for enjoying their lunch.

Great eh ? The new economy is coming here........

Well, not quite as rosy a picture as described in the news article, according to some commentators on the story who seemed to know exactly what was going on.

All of these new tech start up companies are "internet marketing" companies, or as the commentator put it.........."they design websites".

And.........they are funded by the government. Government grants and loans pay the employee salaries and the rent in their new urban surroundings.

So not only are many of the jobs being created directly public service jobs, but some of the private industry jobs are also being funded by the government.

Website design is hardly new or innovative. Programmers in India will design a website for one tenth the cost and don't need lavish urban surroundings, game rooms and terrace dining to get their creative juices flowing. They would be lucky to be working from a small cubicle somewhere in India.

In a round about way the government is paying for the restoration of dumpy old factories and other "lofty" types of buildings, but I doubt there is much job creation in this new economy of technology.

I suspect when the government money runs out, the developer will have lots of upscale urbanized office space for rent.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My dad was the custodian for a heritage building for awhile.

The main purpose of the building was as a music conservatory and performance centre.

But, they had extra room to rent out in the front of the building, and the tenant were some kind of "arts group".

He told me what they did, as they collected government grant money.

One time..........for two weeks..........they set up a tent in the middle of the space and everyone went inside, lit candles and found their "inner self".

Jobs of the future perhaps.............helping us find our inner selves ?

We used to call them "hippies"..............


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> We are quickly moving to a resources and service sector economy and leaving manufacturing behind.


 Not only manufacturing, but also high tech :upset: 
Canada never been big high tech country, but still there were: huge Nortel, ATI, RIM ... Intel opened development site in Etobicoke.... And where they are now?!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

.... and manufacturing..... I've never seen neighter in Europe nor in Middle East anything in any store that was "Made in Canada" . Except commodities, do we export something except "Maple Syrop"?!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

All the job losses across Canada and home sales were up significantly in April.

Across Canada...........up 10%

Take out Toronto and Vancouver..........and still up 3%.

Thank goodness money is easy to borrow.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor said:


> .... and manufacturing..... I've never seen neighter in Europe nor in Middle East anything in any store that was "Made in Canada" . Except commodities, do we export something except "Maple Syrop"?!


Not much Gibor..........we have a trade deficit of 3 Billion a month. Take out oil exports and our trade balance looks like this.


View attachment 4473


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Not much Gibor..........we have a trade deficit of 3 Billion a month. Take out oil exports and our trade balance looks like this.
> 
> 
> View attachment 4473


That what I'm talking about ... this chart is "non-energy" , and it would be much more disgusting if you add "non-mining"


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Interesting also, that a new polls shows the NDP tied with the Liberals and Conservatives in a federal election.

It would appear Canadians are fed up and searching for an alternative.

I can't recall the NDP so high in the polls federally ever before.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

gibor said:


> Not only manufacturing, but also high tech :upset:
> Canada never been big high tech country, but still there were: huge Nortel, ATI, RIM ... Intel opened development site in Etobicoke.... And where they are now?!


You have to consider Mitel and Newbridge as well. Terry Matthews does a pretty good job trying to incubate high-tech companies in Ottawa. IIRC during the Nortel crash, a number of the laid off workers ended up going to these small companies, or started up their own companies. Heck, Cowpland and Matthews got their big break with Nortel to begin Mitel.

Sad thing is with a Conservative government, there has never been any sort of interest in supporting high-tech. Hard to say if other parties would have made a difference, but from my POV, when Nortel and RIM were in trouble, the Conservative government just sat back and ignored it. Instead they kept pumping more money to advertise the oil sands and the Keystone pipeline project.

So when they did that tour after the oil crash and saying how supportive of Ontario industry and how Alberta oil wasn't driving Canada's economy, I just had to laugh at how brazen they lie.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> My dad was the custodian for a heritage building for awhile.
> 
> The main purpose of the building was as a music conservatory and performance centre.
> 
> ...


 ... were they smoking bongo-pipes inside the tent also? :biggrin:


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Sad thing is with a Conservative government, there has never been any sort of interest in supporting high-tech


 i hardly believe that NDP or Libs gonna support anything except government workers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

News is just out the average Canadian home price is up again, now at $448k.

Higher home prices... declining employment... not good


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If you handed most people on CMF 448K in cash.........would they spend it on a house, or invest it ?

Only because people actually don't have 448K and can borrow it, with easy monthly payments would they choose a house.

We would get laughed out of the bank if we asked for 448K to invest at mortgage interest rates.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just curious what was average Canadian home price 15 years ago?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> If you handed most people on CMF 448K in cash.........would they spend it on a house, or invest it ?
> 
> Only because people actually don't have 448K and can borrow it, with easy monthly payments would they choose a house.


Are you suggesting that 448K is not really 448K, and the number doesn't matter, but what matters is "easy monthly payments".

That is ** exactly ** the psychology that lead to the US real estate bubble & crash!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

There should be a law that banks cannot give mortgages unless downpayment is 30% or 40% of house price.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> Not only manufacturing, but also high tech :upset:
> Canada never been big high tech country, but still there were: huge Nortel, ATI, RIM ... Intel opened development site in Etobicoke.... And where they are now?!


Ottawa was "Silicon Valley North" for a few years. Nortel and various other high tech companies such as Mitel (who was bought out by Alcatel when they got into financial hot water), Newbridge Networks, and who remembers JDS-Uniphase a manufacturer of fiber optics back in the 90s.....

Macleans Magazine article (2000) about the spectacular growth of JDS Uniphase


> The pace is hectic, with growth the only constant. In the past six months, the company has announced seven takeovers, worth more than $27 billion. When those deals all close, the *company's workforce will swell to more than 12,500, of which more than 7,000 will be located in the Ottawa area, spread among 17 buildings*. To make room for further expansion, the company's 46,500-square-metre main building will soon undergo a 33,500-square-metre expansion. When that space is fully occupied, there are plans to develop an adjacent 21-hectare site that is now just an open field. "If you're managing growth of 35 or 40 per cent a year, it's challenging, but you're not in auto-panic," says Cobb. "But when you're doubling in size every year, as we have for the last several years, it just never lets up."


Well that was then..and were are they now? JDS Uniphase started to dump employees even before Nortel did and a about 8 years in a row before the big bust in 2008. 



> Well done may be an understatement. Since last June, when the fibre-optics equipment maker formerly known as JDS Fitel Inc. merged with Uniphase Corp. of San Jose, Calif., the company's shares have rocketed from $28.75 to a recent high of $219, giving the company a market value of $64.2 billion - equal to the combined value of Canada's three largest banks. (Last Friday, the shares closed at $189.) Revenues in the most recent quarter, which ended on Dec. 31, were 119 per cent higher than the combined sales of the two companies in the same period a year earlier. The bottom line: if an investor had been given the choice a year ago of buying shares in either Straus's company or that larger and far better-known symbol of Canadian high-technology prowess, Nortel Networks Corp., he or she would have done twice as well taking a flyer on JDS.





> Rather, the issue is money, or lack thereof, due to a lack of investor interest in Canada. It’s a pattern that manifests itself at all levels in Canada, and can best be explained as a Nortel hangover. Until the late 1990s, Canada had a healthy, if not flashy, high-tech sector, centred in the Ottawa region around telecommunications, dating back decades. With the rise of the Internet, “at a time when the world said ‘We need connectivity,’ Ottawa said, ‘We can do that,’ and it took off” led by Nortel, Mr. Lazenby said. “We were in the right place at the right time.”


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor said:


> There should be a law that banks cannot give mortgages unless downpayment is 30% or 40% of house price.


That would crush the real estate market and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs.

The illusion must be kept going. No one must discover the secrets to the magic trick of creating wealth from living in a house.

As Peter Schiff said years ago, why work or save for retirement, when all you have to do is buy a house ? 

If you want to really make money buy several houses. If you want to get filthy rich buy dozens of houses.

So far it has worked out rather well for a lot of people.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

gibor said:


> i hardly believe that NDP or Libs gonna support anything except government workers


FWIW when Bombardier problems were coming out in the last year, the Quebec government outright asked if there was anything they could do, I.e. government loans or some such. IIRC the start of the dominoes for Nortel was the federal government pulling support from EDC when a foreign company wanted a loan to purchase Nortel products. Grant it there was some mismanagement, but a stay of execution for a couple of years could have set things right.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

This is an odd meme here on CMF - "Canada is going to hell in hand basket" - because we lose manufacturing jobs, because taxes are too high and/or because taxes are too low, because our laws are too strict and/or our laws are too lax. Yet Canada is always ranked in international surveys as being one of the best places in the world to live. And immigrants, who have the most at stake, vote with their feet by coming to Canada in waves. It is hard to reconcile this with the doom and gloom of some CMFers, including some who are also immigrants. Me? I'm pretty happy to live here. I wouldn't want to live up anywhere else.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Canadian taxes are not too high. Our tax rates are below the average of the G7.

I'm currently working in the US (in Oregon) and I pay more income taxes than I paid in Ontario!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Than maybe somebody can create new thread _I'm pretty happy to live here. I wouldn't want to live up anywhere else._ and talk to yourself there ?!

as this thread about different thing....


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I am not 'pretty happy' to live here.

I am absolutely thrilled to live in Canada and am so very fortunate to have been born here. So much freedom, so much opportunity. We travel extensively and are always so happy to come home. We have looked at other countries to live, including the USA. Nowhere we have been comes close to Canada.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I miss living in Canada. I can't wait to return home. We've also got to find a way to tighten our borders to prevent the Americans from coming. Now that I've seen both sides, I'm convinced we're going to get flooded with Americans some point soon


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

gibor said:


> Than maybe somebody can create new thread _I'm pretty happy to live here. I wouldn't want to live up anywhere else._ and talk to yourself there ?!
> 
> as this thread about different thing....


And one of the best thongs about living in Canada is having the freedom to express opinions that are different from those of other people. ;-)


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Davis said:


> And one of the best thongs about living in Canada is having the freedom to express opinions that are different from those of other people. ;-)


There are many good things in Canada, but what you mentioned exist in majority of countries 



> Now that I've seen both sides, I'm convinced we're going to get flooded with Americans some point soon
> 
> 
> > Don't think so, Americans are too brainwashed


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

"_And *one of the best thongs *about living in Canada is having the freedom to express opinions that are different from those of other people. ;-)" 
_ 
I'm not wearing a thong, regardless of how great Canada is.

Let them pass their "thong laws" if it be their will.

But I shall stand up to the authorities and wear my Robert Stanfields..........because "I Am Canadian."


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

If we criticize Canada , it doesn't mean we don't want to live here or hate it, just means that we want Canada to become a better place ....


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Sags, thank you for that. And thank you for not wearing a thong!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> one of the best thongs


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> Than maybe somebody can create new thread _I'm pretty happy to live here. I wouldn't want to live up anywhere else._ and talk to yourself there ?!
> 
> as this thread about different thing....


Suggestion for new thread..somewhat related to this topic of more Canadian companies dumping employees on the EI line...

*"Why I am happy to live in Canada.*..(inspite of skyrocketing real estate prices in certain large cities and a bleak economic outlook)
Give at least 4 reasons:

1. I'm safe from war, car bombs, suicide vest bombers and attacks by extremists (well except for last October)
2. I don't mind paying taxes, even if they are higher than in other countries
3. I have free medical care...even if I have to wait in line for some of it
4. The Federal, Provincial and municipalities provide assistance living if I am in need
5. I can choose where I want to work and what kind of work I may be interested in
6. The Federal, Provincial and municipalities invest in building and renewing infrastructure for me
7. I don't have to worry about hordes of "boat people" pouring in unannounced to take jobs away from Canadians
8. I can still get a decent education , free in public schools and get low interest student loans if I want to pursue higher learning
9. And thanks to my government, that useless penny has been eliminated, and now I carry a Scottish "man purse" to store all those heavy
Loonies and Toonies and have to count my money twice because it sticks together


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> *But I shall stand up to the authorities and wear my Robert Stanfields..........because "I Am Canadian*."


and you must also drink "MOLSON CANADIAN" beer and wear long underwear most of the year...because you ARE Canadian..

Carver (throw some of that Canadian back bacon on the barbie for me..... and I'll have my pancakes with real Maple syrup..thank you:biggrin

and those proverbial "Canadian Icons)..eh?...Bob and Doug Mackenzie...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pPRaD6TKLc


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I have wondered how many more years before GM pulls out of Oshawa/Canada entirely.......only a fraction of the workforce there now compared to 20 years ago.....


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Cal said:


> I have wondered how many more years before GM pulls out of Oshawa/Canada entirely.......only a fraction of the workforce there now compared to 20 years ago.....


imho Not only GM, but all other car manufactures factories will pull out of Canada in 5-10 years...

And I won't be surprised to see some of them in Cuba, where workers are very qualified and salaries are exremely low


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> imho Not only GM, but all other car manufactures factories will pull out of Canada in 5-10 years...
> 
> And I won't be surprised to see some of them in Cuba, where workers are very qualified and salaries are exremely low


Sorry, but I can't see Cuba becoming an auto manufacturing state. Still too many obstacles there for free enterprise to flourish.

Unlike Mexico, where the pesos floats in relation to the US dollar, the Cuban peso is pegged and it cannot be used or exchanged outside of Cuba.
In essence it is still an isolated state, although they do allow tourism to bring need the badly needed foreign currency.

Being a communist state, the communist gov't of Raol Castro still calls the shots. If the gov't wants to shut down a factory, it can.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I was talong about 5-10 years ... who knows what gonna be than  btw, China is also Communist 1 party country


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> I was talong about 5-10 years ... who knows what gonna be than  btw, China is also Communist 1 party country


China is a communist country that has softened their extreme bureaucratic ideology (not politcal ideology) towards world trade. Especially with investment from the wealth Chinese entrepreneurs, who will build factories for American interests (Apple for instance)..but the factories and workers are under the Chinese gov't control at all times. 

E-commerce has also come into being in the last 5 years or so in China (witness the explosion of wealth in AliBaba and other E-commerce traders)..
*but the fact remains that the Americans cannot control what goes on in China.*

Example here:
Gibson Guitar built a factory there a few years ago (Quing Dao) to build a cheaper line of guitars (Epiphone), and for a while Gibson was profiting from the cheap labour there and 'reasonable quality" that was sufficient for cheaper guitars....they were reaping the rewards of cheap labour and materials.

However, China does not recognize US patents,trademarks, or any type of intellectual property (industrial espionage) and in the last year or so, thousands upon thousand of fake GIBSON guitars have been coming out of China (called CHIBSONs as a joke)..that are of inferior to the US quality American made.
This is just one example of what can happen...so far it hasn't happened to the Apple Watch..but give it time and fakes will be available, once the Chinese reverse engineer it.

*Now...Cuba*...an isolated communist country for many years since the Castro Revolution that ousted the American supported Batista government. Every factory and AMERICAN INTEREST WAS CONFISCATED by the newly formed communist state. 

To understand the reluctance of the US to relocate any US interests there..you have to look back at history of relations between the US and Cuba.

1961: The Cuban -Soviet Missile crisis between Krushchev and Kennedy brought the world as close to Armageddon (nuclear war) than any previous political incident to date.

The Bay of Pigs invasion led by the US CIA and a band of Cuban expatriates to re-instate the former Batista government failed. 



> The Cuban Revolution of 1952 to 1959 had forced President Fulgencio Batista, an ally of the United States, into exile.* He was replaced by the Communist movement led by Castro, which severed the country's formerly strong links with the US after expropriating the assets of US corporations—and developing links with the Soviet Union, with whom, at the time, the United States was engaged in the Cold War.* US President Dwight D. Eisenhower was concerned at the direction Castro's government was taking, and in March 1960, Eisenhower allocated $13.1 million to the CIA to plan Castro's overthrow. The CIA proceeded to organize the operation with the aid of various Cuban counter-revolutionary forces, training Brigade 2506 in Mexico. Following his election in 1960, President John F. Kennedy was informed of the invasion plan and gave his consent.


Even though recently Pres. Obama has allowed relations to thaw and remove some of the embargo that has been in place for more than 50 years (Cuban people are suffering in certain kinds of human advances in medicine etc), any commerce between the US and Cuba will be slow and "wait and see" for many years.

I don't know if you are aware of the role that the "Big Three" remaining US automakers had in WWII supporting the US gov't war efforts with jeeps, tanks and transport trucks and other war related materiel, but that is why the US gov't bailed out Chrysler in the 80s when they were on the verge of bankruptcy and GM in 2008 when the recession hit. I doubt that the US gov't will every allow the Big Three to relocate there. 

I somehow doubt that we will see the US based technology and automaking shift to Cuba...it would take a change in government ideology,
and direct US oversight of any industrial revolution there...ie: US investors will not take the chance with Cuba or North Korea for that matter
because things can change very rapidly there if relations sour between them and the US. OTOH; China has built up enough wealth over the last
25 years to build the factories on their own with Chinese investors eager for business...but this is not the case with Cuba, a third world
country by modern standards.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

The baby boomers are past peak spending years swimming in clutter. The bubble in clutter has most likely peaked. Robots are starting to replace the fast food worker. How long will it be before trucks on the roads are not using drivers? This type of activity does not promote a lot of new jobs.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> I don't know if you are aware of the role that the "Big Three" remaining US automakers had in WWII supporting the US gov't war efforts with jeeps, tanks and transport trucks and other war related materiel, but that is why the US gov't bailed out Chrysler in the 80s when they were on the verge of bankruptcy and GM in 2008 when the recession hit. I doubt that the US gov't will every allow the Big Three to relocate there.


 I don't think this was the reason..btw, .Ford and GM aided Nazis and in big way!
_In August 1938, a senior executive for General Motors, James D. Mooney, received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle for his distinguished service to the Reich. "Nazi armaments chief Albert Speer told a congressional investigator that Germany could not have attempted its September 1939 Blitzkrieg of Poland without the performance-boosting additive technology provided by Alfred P. Sloan and General Motors". During the war, GM's Opel Brandenburg facilities produced bombers JU-88, trucks, land mines and torpedo detonators for Nazi Germany._

Regarding Cuba .... again I was talking about future.... Just look at Vietnam, US prectically destroyed 90% of the country completely and now:
http://vietnamembassy-usa.org/relations/vietnam-bright-future-us-businesses-draws-top-us-groups
http://www.vietnam-briefing.com/news/companies-vietnam-attractive-destination-asean.html/


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

lonewolf said:


> How long will it be before trucks on the roads are not using drivers?


Perhaps sooner than we think.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102654015


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Texaco sold oil to the Nazis during WW11

IBM provided he tabulating equipment necessary for the Nazis to compile lists of Jews. The machines were rented.

After the war, IBM went in to find those machines. They actually claimed back rent and forward rent from the German Government.

No different from the multinationals who are selling weapons and technology to use against the forces of their own countrymen.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

fraser said:


> Texaco sold oil to the Nazis during WW11
> 
> IBM provided he tabulating equipment necessary for the Nazis to compile lists of Jews. The machines were rented.


I think it will be easier to find big US corporations that did didn't help or worked with Nazis!!!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor said:


> I don't think this was the reason..btw, .Ford and GM aided Nazis and in big way!
> _In August 1938, a senior executive for General Motors, James D. Mooney, received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle for his distinguished service to the Reich. "Nazi armaments chief Albert Speer told a congressional investigator that Germany could not have attempted its September 1939 Blitzkrieg of Poland without the performance-boosting additive technology provided by Alfred P. Sloan and General Motors". During the war, GM's Opel Brandenburg facilities produced bombers JU-88, trucks, land mines and torpedo detonators for Nazi Germany._


Yes, I know about Henry Ford's visit to Nazi Germany and Hitler before they entered the war in 1941 and the German Opel contribution the Nazi war efforts..blitzkrieg etc.
But the US based companies were required to supply the US military with similar equipment. 



> Regarding Cuba .... again I was talking about future.... Just look at Vietnam, US prectically destroyed 90% of the country completely and now:


That was back in the late 60s...same time as the Cuban missile crisis. Even though it's been over 50 years now and a lot of water has gone under the bridge,
it all depends on the economic policies of those countries. The world was a different place in the 50s and 60s with the cold war and Korean war, followed by the Vietnam war and then the Gulf war I and US invasion after 9/11. South Korea and Japan, destroyed by the US during the wars have recovered since then and US investment
has certainly turned out some big automotice giants...Honda/Nissan/Toyota for Japan and Kia/Hyndai and others for South Korea.

Cuba will change too in the next "few" years, and they may be even able to attract foreign investment. but with relations only thawing this year, it may take a long time before any US manufacturing is moved there. 

Mexico being a free trade partner, will still have the advantage for many years over Cuba.


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