# I Support Lead Manifesto



## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

.....well a tiny bit of it.each:

The two things I am vaguely supportive of is that yes we do need to have a little push in the direction of change and disruption for energy efficiency and other such ideas. Corporate interests alone wont do it. Certainly that doesnt mean shutting down the patch but we can offer incentives here and there to start the process. Ok with that.

The next thing that struck me is their back to the land idea and I think this is a good idea. There are some people who will always live hand to mouth in our cities because they cant find employment or are chronically under skilled. Automation is going to make that worse in the future. So why would a person sit in a dump house in an expensive city when they could have 3 or 4 acres of their own somewhere where they can be self sufficient, grow a little something here and there and make it there own little private paradise.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't know much about a Lead Manifesto, but I sure take exception over the primary points in the Leap Manifesto.:biggrin:

I don't mind some push to going green(er) with some broad based carbon taxes (but not carbon cap and trade). There is a difference being made in BC with carbon taxes and I don't mind the extra cents/litre or cents/gas utility bill as long as all that revenue is going back effectively and efficiently into the economy. What I would be livid about is carbon cap and trade like the cowardly a-holes in ON and QC are doing. Why should consumers with their monster trucks/SUVs and mansion houses not pay as well?

I disagree with this going back to the land idea. Acreages and small farms are terribly inefficent on a per acre basis and good land is being swallowed up by urban sprawl and pretend farmers. Stop this criminal act now! Every acre with productive soil should be dedicated to agriculture on a grand and efficient scale.

And all that gibberish about being fossil free by some date in the future surely can't be that stupid :stupid: Did any of those turkeys not think about how they are going to travel from A to B? No more ships or aircraft or? No more diesel electrical generation for Inuvik or Nunavut or? No more asphalt or? No more plastics or pharma or vinyl siding or? Dig iron ore out of pits in Labrador?

Too many people eating Okanagan brownies et al.....


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

LEAP Manifesto = too much pot smoking

Clearly it's authors are wealthy, and not paying Ontario electricity bills. Or if they are, they're not paying attention. More hypocrites with a soapbox.

Green energy will give Ontario $0.18/kwh May 1, while selling excess below cost to the US. That's a leap for sure. lol


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Accept the Leap Manifesto as a starting point to gather public consensus and then tweak and employ the good objectives and ignore the rest.

The world is heading towards a green economy. There is no doubt about that. Tesla Motors is forcing the other auto companies to follow their lead. Wind and solar are becoming huge contributors to hydro demands in some areas.

Cap and trade, I don't know enough about, but it seems like a tax grab to me with no apparent upside. We don't want to punish the oil producers but should use royalties from that source to make the transition.

Wealth redistribution has been failing for decades. The rich own all the assets and the assets attract more wealth. How we redistribute wealth is open for debate but the status quo simply can't continue.

Every part of the Leap Manifesto should be open for public debate and some reflection, but it is simply not acceptable to refuse any change is going to happen, because it will if we are prepared for it or not.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

> The world is heading towards a green economy. There is no doubt about that. Tesla Motors is forcing the other auto companies to follow their lead. Wind and solar are becoming huge contributors to hydro demands in some areas.


sags, really have to disagree with you here. Do you live in the Lower Mainland? 

I bought a house outside the city, and have to drive through a windmill string sitting above the eastern shore of Lake Superior. One of the windiest places in the country. 95% of the time the blades are parked. And being paid to be parked.

Most of Canada is too far north to receive much benefit from anything other than passive solar heat. It's most needed in the winter, when the sun is too low in the sky.

Electric vehicle use in most of Canada is ridiculous. It's too cold, range not far enough. When it's -20 outside, I'm not shutting off the heat so I have a better range per charge. Besides, with all the green electricity rate increases, I can't afford the extra electricity to charge it.

Having high Ontario electrical bills, and moving to a rural area with no natural gas lines, I've been doing a substantial amount of research on the green energy residential options. Solar and wind electricity, solar heated domestic water, solar boiler heating system, etc. Residential-sized wind turbines are useless, and cost-prohibitive. Solar panels are cost-prohibitive and generate little electricity unless you have a solar farm. Off-grid living has much reduced electricity availability. 

Green energy is currently a scam designed to line the pockets of corporations, and make politicians feel good. For the average Joe geen energy is near bankrupting. Maybe in the future it will improve, but I doubt it will be in my lifetime. Regardless, one green energy idea rarely serves all locations.


----------



## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

> 95% of the time the blades are parked.


Looks like they aren't hooked up to the grid yet then; in time I'm sure there will be a more robust means of moving it around, all that needs to happen is to put in place the infrastucture.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

RCB ... a breath of fresh air amongst all the BS here...thanks


----------



## couchman (Oct 10, 2013)

Totally agree with RCB... (RCB for Prime Minister). We have such a big county with few people. Avi Lewis goes to Edmonton and presents this ridiculous idea. Then leaves the convention takes a cab to the airport fly's back to TO. Takes a cab to his house and laughs at everyone.I guess the NDP really never expect to get in power and are content to sit and complain and think of ways to bring us back to the stone age. It seems like everytime I meet someone who admits to being NDP they either work for the government or a government agency...Just my observations...


----------



## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

OK.... I'm thinkin both RCB and Couchman can share the PM-ship. These Warmunists need to give their heads a shake.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

mrPPincer said:


> Looks like they aren't hooked up to the grid yet then; in time I'm sure there will be a more robust means of moving it around, all that needs to happen is to put in place the infrastucture.


They've been hooked into the grid for at least 10 years. And they've recently added yet another project just to the northeast of it.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

I got to this point because I'm fed up with the green lies, and greenie hypocrisy. I will admit that I'm both an early-adopter, and a miser with money. I want VALUE for my dollar...as much as I can get, (my multi-generational cast iron pans, for example), but I will go whole hog on emerging tech if I believe it will save me money. The problem lies with the value aspect.

When CFLs came out, I spent $$$ and switched out my whole house. I quickly learned that they don't work well outdoors in Canadian winters. I also learned that most brands did not last anywhere near the claimed lifespan. The only ones that have lived up to their claims at this point are the Phillips daylight CFLs I have. Everything else has failed pretty quickly.

I have long waited for LED bulbs for residential use, but have a fear of shoddy manufacturers due to the CFL experience. LEDs are expensive, just like the CFLs, so their purchase is yet another "green gamble".

My car is a basic economy car, new off the lot in 2006. 40,000 km, $50 in gas a month before the kids got their licences. Moving, and driving the road I will need to drive, I am now going to have to get an SUV, or something with 4WD. To this point my light-on-gas car has provided much value. Once I move, it could only be a summer car. If greenies think I should not drive a 4WD SUV, then perhaps they should try driving a KIA Rio up to an elevation of 800', corners every 500' or less, in northern Ontario snow. I'm pretty sure the snowplows won't be electric.

Improvements in technology is great. Forcing people to adopt more expensive technology that cannot do the required job is waste in its most extreme.

Just as an example of green foolishness, how are Canadians finding their asphalt and road lane painting is holding up? The new, kinder asphalt formulation now loses its bonding ability after a freeze/thaw cycle or two. Canadian potholes are breeding like rabbits, damaging cars like never before. Tires are taking a real beating, so let's buy more tires and parts. New, kinder road paint formulations are failing in less than one summer, causing repainting every year, burning more fossil fuels in the trucks that lay the paint.

Because everything green is so great.


----------



## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

sags said:


> Accept the Leap Manifesto as a starting point to gather public consensus and then tweak and employ the good objectives and ignore the rest...


While there may be the odd "good objective", I don't see anything near a good solution. "Ignore the rest", I agree, "the rest" is all of it.


----------



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Hi:

Whether or not global warming is real due to human activity, I am quite sure that government response is going to be the greatest boondoggle ever perpetuated upon the kind gentle taxpayer. It is already well on it's way here in Ontario. There are reports of financial difficulties emerging out of Germany, which is 5 or 10 years ahead of Ontario.

We use about 17kWh/day here, including the hot water tank. Last bill was $158. The average in Ontario I believe is 30kWh/day, so the average household is in the $250/month range. This is really starting to hurt people.

I have been watching alternative energy for 20 or 30 years now and it has never made economic sense ... until now. I think I can now make a case for taking myself off grid.

I mostly heat with wood, but with my being out of commission a year ago during prime firewood harvesting season, I have to concede to the realities of life that I can no longer assume personal 24/7/365 availability any more. I managed with low wood inventory, but that was only because it was a mild winter. If I was out during the winter, my wife would be unwilling and likely unable to carry on with wood heating. So it is time to get a non oil furnace, as oil has too many insurance and regulatory issues to be viable any more.

First up is a new propane furnace. If I am getting propane on site, then at $0.25/kWh, I am getting a propane water heater and stove too. Likely a $8000 to $11,000 investment.

The above will drop my electricity to an estimated 10 to 12 kWh/day and my annual bill to about $1500. A ball park estimate solar install will cost about $40,000, giving a very simple ROI of 3.75% by eliminating my Hydro One Networks bill. So things are just coming into economic ever so slightly, but has more to do with my jurisdiction jacking up rates so much than solar costs coming down. I still need to replace the batteries every decade or so, I still need to run some fuel in a back up generator, and I still need to babysit the system.

I need a furnace anyhow, the economics work on the hot water tank, and my wife covets a propane stove (and maybe economics work here I don't know). So this is job one. I'll keep an eye on the electricity front for now, and maybe do that piece in a few years, partly depending on how much more incentive Wynn supplies.

Of course my fear is that if enough people go off grid, it would strand a bunch of assets. These costs would then find their way back to me via general taxation and I'd be paying twice for my electricity.

hboy43


----------



## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

many thankx to RCB & hboy for sharing their green research on household & car energy consumption. Even city dwellers should be rethinking their energy consumption patterns from the ground up. I know i am, so found RCB & hboy's observations very helpful.

i don't know if a wood-burning furnace produces the same fragrance as a wood-burning stove that burns local pine & spruce, but those are heavenly scents that the current generation of youngsters will never know. My grandmother swore by her wood cooking stove down on the lower St-Lawrence shore. She knew exactly where on the blackened cast-iron surface to place each cooking pot & how to adjust the fire beneath, so all the pots would simmer at the right temperatures.


----------



## couchman (Oct 10, 2013)

In Ottawa 4 or 5 years back they were really pushing the conservation of water. They spent lots of time educating people on the effects of watering your lawn (how much was needed and how often) also encouraging people to change shower heads for more conservation and etc. Well a few years after that the water rates had to go way up because we were not using as much water and the revenue was way down. All the infrastructure costs of water delivery does not go down. therefor more money needed. Just this week we are hearing the same thing from the Ontario govt. Because of mild winter hydro consumption was way down and therefor rates are being increased. Again the fixed costs of infrastructure does not go down. So I am just guessing but I would say if alot of people went of the grid the rates would just go higher and when they cant raise them anymore the general tax rate would increase. Thoughts??


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

hboy, we have to install a new heating sysytem in the 900 sq ft house we bought. It came with a woodstove. I was discussing it with my brother, who lives rural, and has a combo wood/electric forced air system. He also owns about 400 acres of bush around his house, was a logger, and has two strapping 18 year old sons. He's getting out of wood. His friends are mostly looking to get out of wood. They're mid 40s, and it's just too much work. Most of them grew up with wood, as did I, and everyone seems tired of having to be home a lot, or the house gets cold.

We looked into an outdoor pellet furnace boiler system, as my body is too shot to lift logs anymore. The new house also has zero fire response, not even volunteer. The pellet system seemed great, could heat domestic water, outbuildings, etc., until we got a price. Not including the pex for radiant, or baseboard diffusers(?), no installation, no outdoor prep, the price was just shy of $20,000. At 50, I just can't justify that price upfront.

We'll be going with propane, or oil. Likely propane.


----------



## RCB (Jan 11, 2014)

couchman, I believe part of general revenue is already paying for Ontario's electricity. The green contracts that were signed with corps by the Liberals can't be met by current pricing to consumers.

I chose to recoup some of that money by buying BEP, which has the wind operation I must drive through.


----------



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Yes wood is work. On a purely econic basis even paying yourself minimum wage, it is not justified.

I continue for the intangibles. Chief would be it is my free gym membership. I average 1 about 1 hour/day exercise with wood. Then, it improves the remaining stand so whoever inherits has better saw logs than they would otherwise. Finally, I just plain like sitting by the fire.

I'll eventually insulate the house better and get down to about 3 cords/year from 5 now, but that will be a high 5 figure project and consume a whole summer.

Hboy43


----------



## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Climate change is proven. The was a lingering debate is about the human contribution but the evidence suggested that our contribution is significant. Most reasonable people accept the science and accept that we need to become more efficient. Insulate the house, use CFLs or LEDs, recycle, use energy efficient appliances etc. These things are not only better for the planet, they make life better. 

The Leap Manifesto is based on reasonable objectives - the reduction of climate change, inequality and poverty. Sadly it is so extreme that it almost becomes a parody of itself.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

We can talk about the problems the Leap Manifesto is trying to address. I take greater issue with it in that there is no reason to believe that its policy proposals are ineffective or unnecessarily costly to address the problems it is trying to solve.


----------



## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

RCB, I understand your objections but there are lots of places where renewables can fit in. They dont need to replace fossil fuels entirely - maybe nothing will, but they sure can take up to as much as 25% of the market. For every mountain adventurist thats needs 4wd to tackle a blizzard, there is some guy who never drives outside a radius of a few dozen kms. He is the perfect candidate for an electric vehicle. Trucks and delivery vehicles and transit could be on natural gas. 

Also I dont understand the objective to letting people make a living back on the land. Thats a better option than just sending them a cheque to live in a slum neighbor hood. Something they can be a little proud of. We have lots of land. They arent going to farm there so we can give up more marginal lands to them.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Interesting that one of the suggestions submitted by the kids on the Attawapiskate reserve was to build greenhouses, so they could grow their own fresh food.

Not a bad idea for an alternative greenhouse project. Perhaps if successful on a small scale they could expand into a commercial business and harvest/wholesale products.

Freeze dried soup stock, herbs, etc..........there could be a market for those types of products.

Give the job to a university research project and let the engineering and environment classes work on it.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

What happened to all the talk of the hole in the ozone the egotistical said we were causing? The angle of gravity pull from the planets causes the hole to get bigger or smaller.

What a concept we little specs in the universe are so powerful being able to destroy the whole world. Yet years & years of the biggest air polluter volcanoes haven't destroyed it. millions of years of volcanoes, forest fires, methane gas from wild life wasn't able to do destroy the air of our planet we can still breath & cycles of warming & cooling of the earth still take their lead from the pulsating sun that is also warming the other planets @ the moment which can be witnessed by the melting ice caps other planet.

This whole global warming thingy is a joke & smells of herd mentality. The so called scientists are dumber then the dumbest person in the herd. 

It wasn't that long ago everyone thought the world was flat such thinking did not make it true.

I seen a documentary years back when first started talking about man made global warming the documentary was to point out man made global warming being a farce. In the documentary they said green house gasses were 9 -10 times higher in the past & earth was cooler. Also mentioned that the plan was to make global warming into a money maker.


----------



## Rysto (Nov 22, 2010)

lonewolf said:


> What happened to all the talk of the hole in the ozone the egotistical said we were causing?


Humans stopped using the chemicals that caused the hole in the first place. You literally couldn't have picked a worse example for you point if you tried.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Kinda makes you wonder though we are talking a few squirts coming out of hole the size of a pin hole of a few spray cans. This is miniscule compared to the other pollutants that go into the air yet the earth does have a way of making the air clean again. If it didn't would not be able to breath @ all just from cumulative effect from smoke of forest fires over millions of years.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

tygrus said:


> RCB, I understand your objections but there are lots of places where renewables can fit in ...


Do they fit when hydro production is at 3.5 cents, nuclear is 5.6 cents but wind is given 13.5 cents and solar ranges from 44.5 to 80.2 cent *while* there is a surplus?

Add in that in times of spring run off, Ontario has had to give NY state credits to take the excess power. Not sold for less than it cost to produce but credits to increase the cost.


Cheers


----------



## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> Do they fit when hydro production is at 3.5 cents, nuclear is 5.6 cents but wind is given 13.5 cents and solar ranges from 44.5 to 80.2 cent *while* there is a surplus?


People are never going to allow another nuke plant or hydro project to ever go ahead again. Solar and Hydro can at least be put on farm land or roof tops and be widely distributed so as to not be a protest target. There is a surplus now maybe but that could change.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

The market will figure out the best type of energy to use. The government starts putting al these rules & regulations favouring one form of energy over another the most practical might not rise to the top.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Rysto said:


> Humans stopped using the chemicals that caused the hole in the first place. You literally couldn't have picked a worse example for you point if you tried.



Haha...ya I had to give up my deodorant for a stick type...pile of BS though. Nature made the ozone hole appear and shrink. Nature might be setting up global cooling according to many scientists and throw a monkey wrench at the NDP kumbaya party and Al Gores bank account. Apparently it's hard to muzzle real scientists (astro guys) for whom no science is settled. Anyway carry on with the apocalypse .


----------



## nortel'd (Mar 20, 2012)

tygrus said:


> Also I dont understand the objective to letting people make a living back on the land. Thats a better option than just sending them a cheque to live in a slum neighbor hood. Something they can be a little proud of. We have lots of land. They arent going to farm there so we can give up more marginal lands to them.


Unless given the tools, equipment , chemicals and knowledge to “make it grow”, giving people 3-4 acres of land with a pat on the back and best wishes to become self sufficient; is an impossibility. 

One needs more than a hoe, a watering can and a strong back to prepare a functional garden in soil that has lain barren for many years (best described as marginal land). Most will starve while the oxeye daisies, sheep sorrel, Canada thistle, dandelions, potato beetles, corn borers, wire worms, white grubs, cutworms and stones thrive.


----------



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Yellowstone has been acting weird of late (you tube videos) with the increase in active volcanoes around the world that has not been seen in ages.

Yellowstone erupts would be 2000 times more power full then mount Saint Hellens. Making 2 thirds of the US not livable 10 feet deep of volcanic ash up to 1000 miles away. Dropping temp by 20 degrees F ( according to some scientists)


----------



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

nortel'd said:


> One needs more than a hoe, a watering can and a strong back to prepare a functional garden in soil that has lain barren for many years (best described as marginal land). Most will starve while the oxeye daisies, sheep sorrel, Canada thistle, dandelions, potato beetles, corn borers, wire worms, white grubs, cutworms and stones thrive.


When did you visit plot? LOL

I have concluded after years of trying that it is a waste of time to continue here without a greenhouse. Just too cold.


----------



## JP* (Aug 11, 2015)

sags said:


> Interesting that one of the suggestions submitted by the kids on the Attawapiskate reserve was to build greenhouses, so they could grow their own fresh food.
> 
> Not a bad idea for an alternative greenhouse project. Perhaps if successful on a small scale they could expand into a commercial business and harvest/wholesale products.
> 
> ...



This is a good idea. What is preventing the community from actioning this themselves?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

From what I have read, they simply don't have the money or are allowed the decision making on spending. The government money seems to be spent addressing problems in a haphazard manner.

In a documentary on this particular reserve, the people held raffles and bake sales to raise money for different projects and were proud of their accomplishments.

But to develop real businesses it will take more than proceeds from bake sales to give it an honest effort. 

Another thought I had was boat building. There is a big market for aluminum or steel fishing boats in various sizes.

Government contracts alone, from conservation officers, OPP, RCMP, would keep a small company busy.

Corporations should be encouraged to partner with first nations, and provide a first nation all Canadian product.....even if it has to cost a little more for consumers to purchase that particular model.

Everyone involved...........from first nation leaders to government, have to get off the "dole" system. It benefits nobody and the money is frittered away with no permanent positive results.

A thriving community is what is needed, giving young people hope for a future and taking some of the weight of worry off their young shoulders.

Imagine 9 and 10 year old children with no hope and are considering suicide as a way out of their desperation. 

We can do better........we have to.

As they say...........before you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps..............you have to have boots.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Here is an interesting concept that could be duplicated on James Bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfw73jNG9us

Corporations aren't going to build huge assembly factories in the far north. The economies will have to depend on a wide array of small projects, which also provide unique and different employment for young people.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

sags said:


> Interesting that one of the suggestions submitted by the kids on the Attawapiskate reserve was to build greenhouses, so they could grow their own fresh food.
> ...
> Give the job to a university research project and let the engineering and environment classes work on it.


It's been done. Not sure why it hasn't been a more widespread initiative.


----------



## cutchemist42 (Oct 15, 2012)

Part of me does feel that a move to better energy sources is held back because of wanting to profit off the last bit of oil we can. Im a little jealous knowing I wont live in a world where we moved on from keeping ICE reliant businesses around for so long.


----------

