# Saskatchewan Teachers: Paid too little?



## Dmoney

Current pay structure in Saskatchewan: (Class IV is a starting teacher with a 4 year bachelor degree)
https://www.stf.sk.ca/portal.jsp?Sy3uQUnbK9L2RmSZs02CjV/LfyjbyjsxsHC0LIj0HdB5pg6sTlIDw/Q==F

Can it really be said that teachers aren't making enough? Does the fact that teachers elsewhere are making more really justify their demands? Starting salary of 46K+, finishing off after 15 years exp. at 81K. Must be nice





http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...or-first-time-in-saskatchewan/article2010807/

I guess if a first or second year teacher can't afford to buy a home they are under paid. How many people start above 45K fresh out of university?

I firmly believe in market allocation of labour, and just using Ontario as an example, how many teachers can't find any work? The pay is obviously too good or the demand for these jobs wouldn't be what it is. A teacher in Ottawa can make over 90K, get summers off, work 6 hour days, and doesn't have to get involved in extr-curriculars. 

Who wouldn't want that?


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## MoneyGal

That's just the salaries. Add somewhere between 20 and 30% for benefits, including pensions. 

I find these kinds of debates extremely, extremely irritating but I suspect my irritation would be shared by people here, so that's something.


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## I'm Howard

My Friend's Wife teaches in Alberta, would like to retire at 54 but She is reluctant to give up her $95,000 Salary.


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## Dmoney

MoneyGal said:


> That's just the salaries. Add somewhere between 20 and 30% for benefits, including pensions.
> 
> I find these kinds of debates extremely, extremely irritating but I suspect my irritation would be shared by people here, so that's something.


Read the comments section of some of the articles on the subject. Really makes me wonder. "But teachers in other provinces make more"... So move... Oh, wait, no jobs there either... Just means they're more overpaid.


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## MoneyGal

I couldn't get the Globe comments to load, which is probably a good thing.


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## andrewf

MoneyGal said:


> Add somewhere between 20 and 30% for benefits, including pensions.


My work involves labour rates for unionized staff. Fringe is always over 30%. For a civil servant, it's probably over 40%. In Ontario especially, those pension obligations are huge.

I don't mind paying teachers well. I think they should work more (a 3 or 4 week summer break and a couple two week breaks in the year).

Also, when you have, say, 50,000 positions and 150,000 people wanting to fill those positions, you should have the 50,000 best, not the 50,000 first candidates. In other words, pay teachers well, but they have to be good at their jobs.


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## Dmoney

I don't mind paying teachers well, but what some are earning right now is above and beyond well. Gym teacher making over 90K in Ontario? I wouldn't mind being a glorified camp counsellor year round for that kind of money. 

Like you said, it's the additional benefits that really make it great. Pensions at 55 are worth well over $1 million, which the average individual would have to save over 35 years to retire in the same comfort.


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## MoneyGal

I swear I am sitting on my hands, guys. I am actively refraining from posting snarky comment - and just posting that I desperately *want* to post snarky comment. 

My BFF is the head of the association which negotiates with teachers in a Canadian province.


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## Four Pillars

andrewf said:


> Also, when you have, say, 50,000 positions and 150,000 people wanting to fill those positions, you should have the 50,000 best, not the 50,000 first candidates. In other words, pay teachers well, but they have to be good at their jobs.


Agreed. The medical profession is like that (in theory anyway).


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## Dmoney

Four Pillars said:


> Agreed. The medical profession is like that (in theory anyway).


The big difference between the medical profession and teaching is that anybody can get into teaching, whereas medical school is near impossible to get into.

All you need to be "qualified" to teach is undergrad and teacher's college. To become a medical professional you need minimum three years undergrad, medical school and then a residency, and that's before you specialize. 

Teacher's college requires about a B average to get in. In pretty much any undergraduate program. 

Med school requires extremely high grades (90%+) in some of the toughest classes (Bio-Chem generally), MCAT scores that shine and proficiency through several levels of interviews.

The two are hardly even comparable. The only similarity is that when you finish Teacher's College, you can become a teacher, and When you finish Med School you can become a doctor. However the process is completely different getting to the end.


Edit: My dad works in the school system and my mom's a doctor. Both feel they are overpaid.


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## Four Pillars

Love the comment that a first or second year teacher can't afford a house. 

Are there any other professions or jobs where a 1st or 2nd year person can afford a house? I was 30 when I bought my first house.

12% raise? That's about my total raise for the last 7 years.


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## Dmoney

Four Pillars said:


> Love the comment that a first or second year teacher can't afford a house.
> 
> Are there any other professions or jobs where a 1st or 2nd year person can afford a house? I was 30 when I bought my first house.
> 
> 12% raise? That's about my total raise for the last 7 years.


I'm apalled that teacher's aren't given a house when they begin employment. Oh the humanity!


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## dubmac

I'm a teacher in the independent school system. I started 18 yrs ago & after getting an MSc in Ont - couldn't get work in Ont (Bob Rae in power) so went to another province to work. Some of the opinions in this thread got me thinking..

1. Every year I sign a employment contract to extend my services as a teacher. Yes, I am largely tenured unless I really mess up, but nonetheless, I can be dismissed at any time - no union to protect me in my case.

2. For the first 7 yrs I was fully involved in the extra-curricular activities (a sport) that took me as a coach away from my for many weekends in the Spring. During that time, I was driving a bus (class 4 license required), and manage groups of adolscents for long periods of time (Fri to Sunday night). - then show up on Monday mornings - quite exhausted. Try it sometime – try it even once.

3. I earn good salary - yes I earn it. I take my job very seriously and take pains to get everything right - the first time. Teaching young people is a lot of fun, but also much responsibility. Simply put - go ahead and try it! Maybe you'll see things differently.

4. My benefits aren't that great. Two boys in braces still cost me 6000.00. The plan absorbed the other 6K. Go easy on your claims that we "get free stuff". I don’t. 

5, “Teachers become teachers because it’s an easy way to make money with little effort.” That’s a good one. Before becoming a teacher, I worked in steel mills, oilfields (Ft St John) and mines. I put my earned salary back into my education expenses – thanks to a set of frugal, very education focused parents. I know what hard work is – and I’ve seen some of the good ol’ boys do buggar all in their “man’s work” jobs.

6. Most teachers are aware of the laggards and slackers in their ranks. It is no different from any other occupation. Again – don’t paint all teachers as being those that work low hours- get great pay (yah da yah da…). Sure there are those that do little and yes, the teachers unions should deal with it

It sounds to me like many of your beefs are against UNIONS -so be it. Good ahead and take a shot a teacher. Let your biases surface – but don’t confuse teacher with union. I bust my *** in my job - and I do enjoy it a great deal. So here I sit, arms crossed…go ahead..make my day.


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## Guest

Hi dubac ... my wife's a teacher ... she too sacrificed and worked hard to get there and she too sacrifices and works hard to stay there ... she loves her work ... I know what you guys go through, I'm aware of your professionalism, I support you guys 100%


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## Dmoney

dubmac said:


> It sounds to me like many of your beefs are against UNIONS -so be it. Good ahead and take a shot a teacher. Let your biases surface – but don’t confuse teacher with union. I bust my *** in my job - and I do enjoy it a great deal. So here I sit, arms crossed…go ahead..make my day.


There are absolutely great teachers out there. I have had many of them myself, and appreciated everything they did for me along the way. I have had horrible teachers who held me and those around me back. Like you said, it is the same in almost every profession.

I'm not painting all teachers with the same brush, nor am I belittling their role in society which is crucial in the development of the next generation. I'm saying that the work/qualifications/requirements to become a teacher are not aligned with the pay, and as a result there is a massive oversupply of teachers. These people are willing to work and in a market economy, would drive down the cost of labour. 

Yes, this is largely due to unions. Do I begrudge people for taking jobs teaching due to the pay? Absolutely not. If it were postal workers in the news it could be the same thing. At the moment however, it's teachers, and teachers do have an extremely good gig, whether in Saskatchewan or Ontario or elsewhere in Canada.

And yet teachers across the board are demanding salary increases and feel hard done by...


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## Sampson

Dmoney said:


> I'm saying that the work/qualifications/requirements to become a teacher are not aligned with the pay


This is not restricted to teachers.

I know many an engineer graduate, 21 years old that start at $60-$80k. They only spend 4 years post-secondary.

Compare this to a tenured academic/teaching position at a University.
- 4 years undergrad
- 4-8 years graduate
- 2-4 years Post-Doc

So all of a sudden, you have someone that is in their mid-thirties or early forties, and earning $60-$80k to start.

And finally compare this to some blue-collar workers in Fort-Mac. High school diploma, 6-figure salary before they turn twenty.


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## dubmac

1. there are two "p"'s in appalled . not one.
2. I work in a market economy at an independent school. Any suggestion that a teacher works 6 hours per day in ridiculous. We may teach 6 per day, but there are extra-curricular and marking to do as well. 
3. Perhaps there is an over-supply of teachers - frankly - it doesn't surprise me - there always is an oversupply 2 years after a recession. Why? Because applying to teachers college takes a 1 yr (if you get in - and I suggest that you check the number of applicants to a teachers college in contrast to the number that are accepted - especially among teachers in the senior sciences), and one year to get your B.Ed. Then, ofcourse, you need to find work. (I understand there is much in places like Nunavut, presently) All those who lose their job during a recession figure teaching is a great way to get a secure job. Few of these actually do it, fewer still actually stay in the profession over time. Many burn out or realize that they don't enjoy it. 
4. Yes it is a "good gig" - a four year degree with another 3 post degree and many hours of work got me where I am. But it isn't the picture that you are putting forth.


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## Karen

Dubmac, I'm going to comment on the points you made using the same in the order you posted them:

1. You complain that you're not legally tenured; it sounds as if you are one of the better teachers out there so, if that's true, why don't you apply for a job in the public school system? Maybe because it's so full of mediocre or bad teachers that there's no room for you? Or that teachers are so well paid that they're hesitant to leave their positions to make room for you?

2. You chose to volunteer as a coach; that was very good of you, but it was a volunteer job - many of us spend countless hours volunteering in many ways and it never crosses our mind that should be paid for it. Teachers' volunteer work is often at the same place where they are employed, so they tend to consider it unpaid labour.

3. You acknowledge that you earn a good salary, and I don't doubt your statement that you earn it if, as you say, you take your work very seriously and take pains to get everything right. However, many of your colleagues don't and they get paid the same as you do. And that's one of my serious criticisms about the system today - there should be some way of rating teachers and the quality of the job they do, but the teachers' union fights tooth and nail against any method of doing that. When I was going to school many years ago, a district inspector used to come into classrooms once or twice a year, unannounced, and sit at the back of the room for the day, presumably to write a report on the teacher. Perhaps that was going a bit too far by today's standards, but there has to be some method of judging teachers' work. Many teachers I know agree with that, but they don't have the courage to stand up to the very powerful BC Teachers' Federation, which seems to be in the control of the more radical teachers in this province.

4. Your dental plan only paid half the cost of your sons' braces? Yiou say that you don't get "free stuff"? By my reckoning, you got half the cost of the braces free - $6,000 worth. When my daughter needed braces, I paid for them myself - 100% of the cost - as most of us do.

5. When I finished high school, I took two years in the education faculty at UBC, intending to become a teacher. I changed my mind and didn't complete my degree, but in those days, at least, it was a common comment amongst my fellow students that one reason they had chosen Education was that it was the easiest way of obtaining a "professional designation." That doesn't mean, of course, that they all felt that way or even that those who did weren't going to become good teachers, but it was a fact, nevertheless, which you seem to be denying, that it was the motivation of many of the teachers who have retired from the system over the last few years.

6. You acknowledge that there are "laggards and slackers" in your ranks but say that it's no different from any other occupation. I don't think it's good enough to sluff it off that way; many of the other occupations have more effective ways of dealing with the laggards and slackers and, in extreme cases, can get rid of them. There have been cases of teachers losing their jobs in B.C. due to sexual abuse of children, but I've never heard of a teacher losing his or her job because of incompetence, although I certainly know some who should have.

It's true that some (but not all) of our beefs are against unions, but it's not good enough for you to tell us not to confuse teachers with unions. The teachers' unions are made up of teachers, and if the average teacher sits back and lets the extremists run the show and doesn't speak up for some rationality, then they are responsible for the demands that are being made in their names.

And finally, a couple of other comments unrelated to your post:

Teachers conveniently forget that they are paid for ten months of the year; at least here in BC, they are not paid for July and August, so their salaries are for ten months only; their paid vacations are at Christmas and Spring Break (which, in many districts in BC has been extended from one week to two). So on a per diem basis, their salaries are even better than they appear at first glance. Many teachers argue that they spend their summer months undergoing further education, but that's their choice; after the first few years, most of those who I know do not. I know several teachers who work at temporary jobs during the summer, thus adding to their annual income. I know others who spend the whole summer travelling or relaxing with their families, something we'd all love to be able to do.

I don't mean to be coming down hard on you, dubmac; it sounds as though you are an excellent teacher. But there are far too many teachers out there who are not, and who put far more of their energy into complaining about how hard-done-by they are than they spend thinking about the good of their students. When I hear the teachers' bargaining representives assure the public during contract negotiations that their first concerns are for the good of their students, I want to scream because it is so obviously untrue. How naive do they think we, the public, are to believe that they are demanding more money and better benefits to benefit our children? 

I could go on for hours; I haven't begun to voice all my complaints about many of the teachers in our system (and I stress, not all), but obviously it's time to stop!


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## Dmoney

dubmac said:


> 1. there are two "p"'s in appalled . not one.



Really??? First of all, I blame that entirely on underqualified, overpaid teachers' inability to bestow upon me the finer points of the english language... Reinforcing my point.

Secondly, since you had to go there....



dubmac said:


> 1. Every year I sign a employment contract to extend my services as a teacher.



It's "an" employment contract, not "a" employment contract.



dubmac said:


> 2. For the first 7 yrs I was fully involved in the extra-curricular activities (a sport) that took me as a coach away from my for many weekends in the Spring. During that time, I was driving a bus (class 4 license required), and manage groups of adolscents for long periods of time (Fri to Sunday night). - then show up on Monday mornings - quite exhausted. Try it sometime – try it even once.


Took you away from my for many weekends??? 
Did you manage groups of adolscents?? How were those?
Remember, when you end a sentence with a period, the following letter should be upper-case.

I could go on, but that would accomplish nothing.

If you're going to rag on someone's spelling, try proof-reading yourself.

Karen great post, really touches on most of the issues people have with teacher's pay.


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## Guest

I wonder are there any readers/posters here who currently have children in the school system, and what their thoughts are on teachers salaries ...


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## Karen

Good for you, Dmoney. I happen to be a stickler for good spelling and grammer, but I would never stoop to correcting someone who makes an error in a post. To me it suggests that the person making the criticism is not only rude and arrogant, but that he or she takes pleasure in belittling other people, and it takes away from the point that person is trying to make. In many cases, the person who made the error is giving me valuable financial advice, and it would be petty of me to skip over that to correct their language. I happen to be good at Engllish language skills; they are knowledgable about financial matters, and that's what we're here for. This is a forum for discussion about finances, not an English language forum.


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## dubmac

To DMoney & Karen..

I apologize for my over-reaction on some of tone used in this thread. DMoney - this is your thread, and I am wrong to express any disrespect. Some of the comments (in the early part of the thread) seemed somewhat disrespectful to someone who is a teacher. In hindsight, I should have used the `wait a day` rule before responding. Karen your points are well put. 

1. I am not complaining about not being tenured. My employer offers me a contract - and I sign it. It's that simple. True..I don't teach in the public system, because I prefer the independent system. The job security, benefits and pension are much reduced, but the working conditions are much better.

2. My contract stipulates that I will perform a set amount of extra-curricular activities - for the students (sport clubs or other). Extra-curricular work is part of the job...and yes, I know that unions hinder this in the public system. 20 or 30 yrs ago, more was expected from teachers in the public system, yet the pay structure does not reflect this. 

3. I understand the criticism - but I object to many of my colleagues being viewed as lazy, inept, incompetent and overpaid. My students rate my performance, and my dept head examines their responses of my performance. Until recently, my performance was based on the success that my students performed on a provincial exam - if the results weren't good, then that teacher was replaced in teaching that course. Politicians got rid of that exam.

4. If I were to add up all of the monthly payments that I have made into the benefits plan, I would have paid much more that 6K. My point - the plan is not extensive. My plan is comparable to anyone working for a small-mid sized employer. I pay $80 per month for benefits - braces or no braces. My participation in the plan is optional. I could save the money, and forgo the benefits., and pay for them, as you have, without a plan.

5. As per the professional designation, I don't see the relevance. I didn't become a teacher because of the professional designation. I enjoy it and see it as a worthwhile career with much personal growth - and yes - I enjoy that fact that I can spend quality time with my kids and family during summers. 

6. I agree that poor teachers should be removed if they don't meet a standard. 

True enough about the abuse of power in unions.. No contest. I have no real suggestion on how to manage how to change the way a union may better account for the practices of it`s members, other than your vote, and the role of politicians and politics.


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## Karen

Thank you for the apology, Dubmac. Another thing I feel strongly about is that so often people's idea of an apology is to say something like, "I'm sorry you took what I said that way," or "I'm sorry you were offended by what I said," rather than to apologize for saying it in the first place. Your apology was sincere, and I respect that.

As I said in my earlier post, I have no doubt that you are one of the "good teachers" and the criticisms that people on this forum have been making do not apply to you. But you may be willing to admit that they apply to a good many more teachers than we would all like to think.

When I was practice teaching in my second year of education at UBC, the principal of the school I was sent to actually apologized for assigning me to the grade three teacher I worked under for that term. He said she was not someone he would have chosen to assign a student teacher to, but he had no choice because she was complaining that she had not been assigned one for several years. His apology was entirely appropriate - she was a terrible teacher. Admittedly, this happened many years ago, but I don't think it would be any easier to get rid of her today.


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## DanFo

The teacher's are whining in Sask...Of course the teachers in the west (BC) are being paid more....the cost of living in the west is far greater...A gas pumper in Ont makes min wage whereas up in Fort Mac he'll make close to dbl..The bottom line is they're paid well and teacher's are still complaining about all the extra they put in (rolling my eyes)...The teacher's should know what is expected when they go into the profession.. be it a few hours a night marking papers or coaching a team for part of the year...with the shorter days in class and the summer's off.... it is factored into the overall yearly wage. A secured job, good benefits, a pension and decent wages and they still want a 12% increase for one year wow..perhaps over the length of a 4 or 5 year contract with a no strike clause... I've had excellant teachers and bad teacher's (one knocked up a student in the class..still teaching at the same school BTW) Educating kids is certainly a tough job but it's what you chose to do knowing what the wages were...and by looking at the wage charts in Sask it looks like the average teacher with a few years of experience is already making more then the average worker in Canada...Don't take this as me saying teachers are grossly overpaid I'm just saying your doing far better then most.


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## Karen

> Of course the teachers in the west (BC) are being paid more...


Actually the BC teachers have just announced that they intend to take a strike vote because the government says they can't afford to give them raises, and they claim to have the second lowest salaries in the country. I don't know whether that's true or not, but that's what they are saying. I think it's Alberta that the Saskatchewan teachers are comparing themselves to, and we know that Alberta can afford things that the rest of the country cannot.

I think this business of each provinces' workers continuously comparing themselves to the same workers in other provinces has got to come to an end. The teachers and nurses in BC are both bad for it; every time their contracts come up, they argue that people in their profession in another province (they pick the highest, of course) are paid more than they are, so they should have a raise. It becomes a never-ending vicious circle, and the poor taxpayer who, in many cases, hasn't had a raise in ages, keeps having to pay for it.


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## Dmoney

dubmac said:


> To DMoney & Karen..
> 
> I apologize for my over-reaction on some of tone used in this thread. DMoney - this is your thread, and I am wrong to express any disrespect. Some of the comments (in the early part of the thread) seemed somewhat disrespectful to someone who is a teacher. In hindsight, I should have used the `wait a day` rule before responding. Karen your points are well put.


Absolutely no need to apologize. We all have opinions, and as a teacher yourself you bring the other side of the story. The whole "glorified camp counsellor" was a direct quote from my old gym teacher over a round of drinks now that I'm a few years out of high school. He absolutely loves his job, coaches teams in all three sports seasons, gives up evenings, weekends and mornings to run practices, go to tournaments, coach games etc. He said he's now making 92K a year, has summers off, Christmas, March break and so on.

He freely admits he's overpaid for what he does, but doesn't lose any sleep over it. He was a great gym teacher and coach, and made high school a great experience for me and many of my peers, but I still fully believe he's overpaid. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the time and effort he puts in. Just means that there are hundreds of people who would willingly do his job for way less money.

I'm personally interested in teaching (university level) following a career in the industry, but I would be willing to do it for way less money than would be on the table. My interest simply stems from having had some great profs and wanting to give others the same experience. However it would be at a point where I was semi-retired or retired, and not done for the money. Or at least that's the dream.


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## andrewf

dubmac said:


> I'm a teacher in the independent school system. I started 18 yrs ago & after getting an MSc in Ont - couldn't get work in Ont (Bob Rae in power) so went to another province to work. Some of the opinions in this thread got me thinking..
> 
> 1. Every year I sign a employment contract to extend my services as a teacher. Yes, I am largely tenured unless I really mess up, but nonetheless, I can be dismissed at any time - no union to protect me in my case.


I don't think anyone cares about teachers in private schools. They are not civil servants, and they and their employers need to provide a good service and value for money or find themselves out of work. So, I'm very happy that you're well-compensated, and I'm pleased that your employer uses that buying power to get the best teachers they can. 

It seems like the public sector teacher unions ensure that the dregs are protected, and carried, by the good teachers. There are thousands of qualified teachers who can't find work and would likely be better than the dead wood currently protected by the current arrangement. It's a waste of money and a waste of human capital. Many of those mediocre teachers might excel in other careers--they should work there instead.


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## dubmac

andrewf said:


> It seems like the public sector teacher unions ensure that the dregs are protected, and carried, by the good teachers. There are thousands of qualified teachers who can't find work and would likely be better than the dead wood currently protected by the current arrangement. It's a waste of money and a waste of human capital. Many of those mediocre teachers might excel in other careers--they should work there instead.


well out andrewf...and quite true. 
I have often thought about how these same unions will respond to the growing demographic in Canada (fewer younger parents=fewer kids). Some of the teachers I know in the public system have already commented that their DB pension will be reduced b/c many retirees are living longer (this is not something that gets much press). As for removing "dead wood" from the ranks of teachers, I'd like to see stakeholders gain more power, but as long as teachers threaten in strike - it may require an action like US pres. Ronald Regan or a Maggie Thatcher tyoe response (I think (not sure) that Regan fired all of the air traffic controllers in the US, then hired them back under new terms). Either way the next 5-10 years will be interesting.


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## Rico

These discussions always go in the same direction. Teachers have it so good, must be nice, summers off, 6 hour work days, benefits are so great, lucky devils VS. teachers work hard, they are only paid for the "teaching season", rarely would any teacher work only 6 hours, the benefits are good but are not free, 30+ kids in a class is not "lucky", etc.

Bottom line, if it's so great, why aren't YOU a teacher then?

Why, on a financial forum, aren't we all bitching about the MILLIONS of dollars in wages and bonuses that CEOs take away from us as shareholders? Oh, right, they are much more educated and work much harder than teachers so they "deserve" it.


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## dubmac

solid post Rico..
I can't remember the source of this quote, but it goes something like..."Boards of Directors, CEO's and Union Heads/Organizers both have some similar traits - they can behave as bullies, self-interested and self-serving in extreme cases". Thinks about Jim Shaw (retired CEO of Shaw Cable) - makes $16,000 per day..on his retirement "parachute" - he's 53 yrs old. Sounds pretty self-serving to me.


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## andrewf

Rico said:


> Bottom line, if it's so great, why aren't YOU a teacher then?


There are thousands if not tens of thousands of young people in Ontario who would love to be a teacher. They can't find work.



> Why, on a financial forum, aren't we all bitching about the MILLIONS of dollars in wages and bonuses that CEOs take away from us as shareholders? Oh, right, they are much more educated and work much harder than teachers so they "deserve" it.


CEOs work for shareholders. If you don't agree with the compensation package, you can try to change it. If you can't change it, you don't have to be a shareholder.

Public sector teachers have a monopoly power to extract their salaries out of our taxes. There is a significant difference. I make a clear distinction between the public and private education systems. Private sector teachers can be paid millions as far as I'm concerned--it's a voluntary transaction between teachers, schools and parents who enroll their children.


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## Dmoney

Rico said:


> These discussions always go in the same direction. Teachers have it so good, must be nice, summers off, 6 hour work days, benefits are so great, lucky devils VS. teachers work hard, they are only paid for the "teaching season", rarely would any teacher work only 6 hours, the benefits are good but are not free, 30+ kids in a class is not "lucky", etc.
> 
> Bottom line, if it's so great, why aren't YOU a teacher then?
> 
> Why, on a financial forum, aren't we all bitching about the MILLIONS of dollars in wages and bonuses that CEOs take away from us as shareholders? Oh, right, they are much more educated and work much harder than teachers so they "deserve" it.


They are only paid for the teaching season... which makes their actual salary 20% higher than stated, since they can teach summer school or tutor over the summer.

30+ kids in a class is just not the reality anymore. Most provinces have JK-Grade 3 at less than 20 kids per class and the remaining grades under 25. Not that it makes a massive difference in terms of ratio, it's still a lot of kids for one teacher, but that's the job.

The job is clearly great as countless new graduates are currently unemployed teachers. I know several "teachers" working minimum wage and occasionally getting a supply position, some in their early 30s. Very few of these people will get full time jobs, simply because the job is so good that huge numbers of people are trying to get in. 

As for why I personally am not a teacher, I'd be more interested in teaching at the university level. Those 4 month summers are even more attractive than the two month ones. 

And regarding CEO pay, that isn't coming directly out of the taxpayer's wallet. If a shareholder doesn't like it, they can vote for change, or sell their stock. It's much harder to avoid paying the taxes that go to public sector salaries.


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## kcowan

Dmoney said:


> And regarding CEO pay, that isn't coming directly out of the taxpayer's wallet. If a shareholder doesn't like it, they can vote for change, or sell their stock. ..


AND boycott the company's products to starve the beast.


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## Sampson

Dmoney said:


> As for why I personally am not a teacher, I'd be more interested in teaching at the university level. Those 4 month summers are even more attractive than the two month ones.


University 'teachers' have little to no training at teaching. Don't you think they are over compensated also? In addition, tenure-track positions ensure the 'best' teachers are retained for life.

Why no gripes about overcompensation at the University level?


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## MoneyGal

Gripes about public school teacher compensation don't preclude gripes about public university professor compensation. 

The problem I have with these kinds of debates is that teachers perform a very public function which, if you have kids in the public school system (as I do), you are able to observe for many, many, many days in the year. 

When teachers complain about the state of their compensation and ask for benefits like a 12% raise or suggest they are underpaid because a teacher two years into his or her career can't afford to buy the house of their choosing - these are always going to be non-starter arguments. Teacher salaries and the total package of public teacher compensation is demonstrably higher than many, many other professions with similar levels of required education. 

And the fact that teachers "volunteer a lot" - pshaw. I'm a Girl Guide leader, sit on multiple public sector boards, and never ever consider that I should be somehow compensated for those efforts (and in fact at every single meeting of every board I am on I must declare that I am free from any perceived or actual conflict of interest, including *any* opportunity for me or a family member to benefit in *any* way as a result of my service). I routinely take large groups of little girls camping and on other very hands-on trips. 

Teachers are under a microscope, and they should be. I know that great teachers are rare and possibly even undercompensated. But anecdotes are not sufficient to set public policy. If you are taking public dollars for your salary, you have to be willing to endure public scrutiny for your efforts. 

p.s. My kids go to a local public alternative school. The waiting list for TEACHERS to get into that school is enormous, because many of them are coming from alternative private schools and the teachers KNOW how much better the public salaries and benefits are. One of my daughters' teachers is earning *more than double* what she earned at a private Montessori school.


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## the-royal-mail

I have no problem with paying people well for their hard work. Teachers contribute to the quality of our society. Education is key.


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## sags

Interesting how the teacher's lot in life has changed.

My father in law, a farmer in Saskatchewan, helped establish the one room schoolhouse in their locality. He said the town built the schoolhouse, supplied living accomodation, food produce and a small salary to the teacher in exchange for the education of their children.

I can't fault the teacher unions for doing their job. They are paid by and represent the teachers, and have done an admirable job of it.

The "employer" side of the equation is where the problem is. People haven't held their public representatives accountable for spending taxpayer money in any form.

If they did, Harper's financial spending record, wouldn't have given him a majority government.


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## Rico

Dmoney said:


> They are only paid for the teaching season... which makes their actual salary 20% higher than stated, since they can teach summer school or tutor over the summer.
> 
> *Yes, exactly - but most people describe it as "paid summers off" when it really isn't. My point is that people give an opinion without knowing the facts.*
> 
> 30+ kids in a class is just not the reality anymore. Most provinces have JK-Grade 3 at less than 20 kids per class and the remaining grades under 25. Not that it makes a massive difference in terms of ratio, it's still a lot of kids for one teacher, but that's the job.
> 
> *I guess this is like discussing real estate prices across Canada - you just can't compare regions. All school districts are different and negotiate their own contracts and have their own budgets. 30+ kids in a room is absolutely the reality in many classrooms. The classroom size initiative in Alberta, based on research that fewer kids in the room was better for outcomes, was removed due to funding cuts (when the recession hit). Oh, and don't forget within those students there are likely 2-3 with special needs that require (and may or may not have) a teaching assistant and special programming within the classroom.
> 
> Yes, that is the job - what is it "worth"?*
> 
> The job is clearly great as countless new graduates are currently unemployed teachers. I know several "teachers" working minimum wage and occasionally getting a supply position, some in their early 30s. Very few of these people will get full time jobs, simply because the job is so good that huge numbers of people are trying to get in.
> 
> *When I graduated there was a shortage of teachers so the wages went up to attract people to the profession. Same thing happened with Nurses in our province. This is bound to catch up and cause an oversupply. My comment was more directed at someone who thinks teaching is such a sweet gig when they have no idea what it involves.
> 
> Take something simple like calling in sick. At most jobs, you call in, roll over and go back to sleep. With teaching, you get your sick butt out of bed, go into the school and prepare the day's lesson for your replacement (usually at 5-6 a.m.). Or, take bathroom breaks. At most jobs when you have to go, you just go. When you're teaching, you can't leave a class unattended for more than a few moments. So, you hold it or bug your grade partner to watch your class. I remember a nurse I knew who worked on the ward with the elderly. She always knew the teachers because they were incontinent (presumably from years of holding it in).
> 
> Yeah, that's the job (I didn't mention the 7-minute lunch breaks, coffee breaks spent helping students or supervising, and the very real pressure to do more, more, more volunteering and extra curricular programs). When it is teaching season you are ON all that time. Someone commented teachers should work harder - geez, should they get any sleep or family time at all? *
> 
> As for why I personally am not a teacher, I'd be more interested in teaching at the university level. Those 4 month summers are even more attractive than the two month ones.
> 
> *University instructors have nothing to do with school districts and do not have formal training as teachers (which is why some of them are terrible instructors using very outdated assessment practices). Their pay is also much lower though. I would look into the trade offs for those 4 months "off" as I'm sure there is a cost of some type.*
> 
> And regarding CEO pay, that isn't coming directly out of the taxpayer's wallet. If a shareholder doesn't like it, they can vote for change, or sell their stock. It's much harder to avoid paying the taxes that go to public sector salaries.
> 
> *Corporate entities are affected by tax rates, so every corporate tax break is money out of our wallets. As a minority shareholder, we can vote for change but c'mon, good luck there. If it were that simple then many CEOs wouldn't make what they do. So the message is that we're forced to pay education taxes (usually through property taxes) so we're pissed about unfair compensation. However, corporate compensation is "private" and we can boycott or not participate. Yet, the disgusting salaries barely raise an eyebrow. I think we have all been suckered to believe this is OK.*


Two last comments (I know this is too long of a post, sorry). 

1. Years back, when our contract was being negotiated the main sticking point was job security. The district wanted to make it so they could move us from grade to grade or school to school. The amount of work it takes to switch grades is unbelievable. Switching schools means losing networks of colleagues and parents (and one may live near one's school). While this was our sticking point, the media focused on the wage issue. Most of us didn't give a damn about any more money yet this was all that was presented.

2. For years, I worked next to a teacher that should have been fired. Everyone knew it but nothing was done. THAT situation is the unfortunate result of job security but we're talking 1 person out of 134 staff. Bad teachers make us all look bad and actually make more work for the rest of us.


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## dubmac

andrewf said:


> There are thousands if not tens of thousands of young people in Ontario who would love to be a teacher. They can't find work.
> 
> 1. If they can't find work, then I suggest they access this site- last week there were 65 jobs listed here...http://www.cais.ca/page.cfm?p=8
> 
> 2. Be aware that the days of finding a job in the same city that you want to be in, are probably gone - you may need to travel/move to a new place
> 
> 3. Also, the market is very competitive. If you have a B average and expect to work 6 hrs per day- good luck to you. I've sat in on many hiring situations - the school I work at typcially hires, motivated, driven, tech-savvy teachers.


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## andrewf

65 positions for the thousands looking to become teachers? Not to belabour the point, but I consider private and public education to be completely separate issues. That is to say, your anecdotes about private schools are not relevant to a discussion about public schools. I don't think you'd find much argument that private schools are likely better managed.


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## MoneyGal

Did you skip over the part where I said one of my kids' teachers earns DOUBLE in the public school system that she earned in the private system? And I'm sure she was just thinking of salary, not the DB pension which will add another million or so by the time she retires.


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## Dmoney

I guess the biggest problem with this argument is the relative stakes people have. 

As it was a prevalent topic in recent news, I wanted to voice my opinion and see what others thought. However, I don't have any real skin in the game, so mine is largely an opinion that can be swayed by factual arguments. 

On the other side though, those with a substantial interest in teacher's pay (teachers, spouses of teachers etc.) will never change their mind no matter what facts, statistics and data are presented. 

In response to the 30+ kids in the class, no bathroom breaks, short lunches etc., that's the job. Do you really think that a teacher's working conditions are that awful? Everyone thinks they have the toughest job, the harshest working conditions, the most demanding environment and so on. 

After a meeting at work the other day with portfolio managers for different industries, one lady was telling a colleague that her industry was the most challenging one to work with. The colleague responded that his was, and then others chimed in saying the same thing.

When you're too close to the issue, you can't take an impartial view and are clouded by personal feelings and perceptions. I'm not saying all teachers are awful and should be paid minimum wage, what I'm saying is that in relation to many other professions, teachers' compensation is much higher than markets would allow, and they are by no means underpaid.


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## CuriousReader

andrewf said:


> Public sector teachers have a monopoly power to extract their salaries out of our taxes. There is a significant difference. I make a clear distinction between the public and private education systems. Private sector teachers can be paid millions as far as I'm concerned--it's a voluntary transaction between teachers, schools and parents who enroll their children.


+1

I find it funny when people always say "Why dont you complain about private sector wages, etc" - well that's exactly the difference, they are PRIVATE, I am not forced to pay their wages or their outrageous waste. On top of that, private sector need to actually compete and fight for survival, or go to oblivion.

PUBLIC sector, on the other hand, tap into taxpayers wallet - they get ridiculous wage for the work they are doing (TTC making 6 digits to sit all day long), crazy benefits, ... and the problem is, if they run out of money, they can get some more from the public (eg. raising taxes). They practically have no need to be reasonable to survive, because they have "sugardaddy" (taxpayers) to fund them.

I am not forced to pay for any waste in the private sector, I am, however, forced to pay for all the waste in public sector.

And these days, do Unions actually do anything other than being thugs to bully taxpayers? I prefer competition, where I get raises / promoted based on merit and my performance, not based on how long I have been sitting my *** on the same chair, regardless whether I am sleeping or doing other crap all day long.

At the end though, choosing the lesser of the evils, I guess teachers getting good pay / pension is not as bad as TTC employees, or even the police force getting over the top compensation.


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## dubmac

teachers salaries in canada http://resource.educationcanada.com/salaries.html/
As mentioned in this thread- geography does play a role in teachers salaries.


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## andrewf

As I've said, I don't think teacher salaries are especially out of line. They can keep them. I want the job security to be relaxed significantly, and I want the best teachers employed, not the ones that got there first.


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## I'm Howard

I have never understood why Two Teachers, both doing the same job, are payed very differantly because one has an Undergraduate Degree, the other a Masters or Ph.D?

They are both doing the same job and should be payed the same.

Retired Teachers On Pension should stay retired, quit Supply Teaching and taking the job away from Recent Grads who need the money and the experiance. 

Teachesr are overpaid, the actual hours worked versus their income is well over the Private Sector, and if the job is so tough, why is their such a demand to teach Summer School???


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## Charlie

dubmac, I think your stats page is out of date. I know a couple of BC teachers who make more then the 'max.', and I think the same is true in Ontario. The page also references 2004 Alberta settlements, and stats to 2003. So maybe it's at 2003/2004?

My pet peeves on the discussion of teaching salaries:

1) the idea that there are lots of lazy, bad teachers. Has not been my experience. Or that of most people I know. The general consensus seems to be that the profession as a whole is terrible, but each or our children have been fortunate to have one of the few 'good' ones. My kids have had great teachers.

2) that teachers work 6 hours a day. Not true. Longer days, many evenings and weekends.

3) that they work a tonne more then others. Again -- most of us work evenings and weekends too. Often for less money. With fewer days off.

4) that they're 'unpaid' in the summer. It's an annual salary. Doesn't matter if it comes in ten cheques or twelve. Or one. The time off is paid. It is one of the great perks of the profession.

Teaching's an odd profession in that a teacher on day one has the same responsibilities as a teacher in year 20. It's also a very public profession and often the unions are very politically active. So opinions abound. Kind of crazy.

I just wish the discussion on salaries would remain on salaries. No need to demonize or canonize the profession. They work hard. But not necessarily harder then the rest of us. Pay, and benefits seems pretty decent for what's involved. Let the negotiations begin!


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## andrewf

I think taxpayers have a right to expect a lot of civil servants, given the salaries they take home. I don't think teacher pay is the most egregious. There are way too many cops earning in excess of $100k. You can talk about dangerous jobs, but I don't think policing is especially dangerous. Consider that the average police salary in the GTA is significantly higher than that of our ground troops in Afghanistan. They're also paid significantly more than police in many US states and cities, including NYC.

You need to have well-compensated police to reduce their corruptibility, but I think the pay we have in Canada goes well beyond that threshold.


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## dubmac

Charlie said:


> dubmac, I think your stats page is out of date. I know a couple of BC teachers who make more then the 'max.', and I think the same is true in Ontario. The page also references 2004 Alberta settlements, and stats to 2003. So maybe it's at 2003/2004?
> !


I'm Howard-Teachers who teach advanced courses, for example Calculus AP. Economics AP or Physics AP, (AP =Advanced Placement) are teaching the equivalent of a 1st yr University Course. Some schools put a premium on teachers that have more training/exp through a grad degree. Other than those cases however, I agree, most courses do not require the advanced degree from a teacher. 

Charlie - salaries do seem a tad low- I agree my source may be out of date. I seem to recall teachers in Ontario can make 92K (those that earn their AQ, additional qualification to teach more advanced courses).
Excellent points on the other peeves etc..

Andrewf: I agree on the high salaries for police. The only thing that I can think of to support higher pay for police etc would be the shift work- working nights etc. Also, the burn out rate for police can be a bit high. A friend is a policeman who said that they spend 80% of their time dealing with 10% of society (ie: criminals, at-risk individuals etc). not a job that I would delight in every day.


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## Sampson

While I believe public servants need to be accountable, I find these discussions mostly useless. I see no sense in opening up this can of worms. Next, we might as well have an individual thread about every publicly paid occupation. Overpaid school janitors, fireman, politicians, bus drivers, street cleaners, grass cutters, garbage collectors, policemen, health professionals, and of course, teachers.

Please someone, quantify the value of a teacher, is it by a metric like # of graduates, or average grade or graduates, or by the median salary of graduates 15 years down the road?

If you can quantify lazy or hard working, and value to society, then we can have a figure.

Just because public occupation A earns a higher salary than public or private occupation B, this is no reason to gripe. Everyone thinks they deserve to earn more money.


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## I'm Howard

Sampson, when Final Exams were marked by people who did not know the exam writer, an 80% average was the exception, now Teachers mark their own Students, 80% is the average.

The job has certain minimum educational requirements, is for 198 days out of 365, has the Best Benefit Programme on the Planet, what is that worth, Max $65,000.???

No strikes allowed, same as for Nurses, and speaking of Nurses, if a Teacher is worth $95,000, what is a Nurse who works shifts, gets two weeks off to start, has to deal with sick and dying people, is abused by other Staff and Patients, what are they worth??

I would say at least $200,000 if we use the same parameters.


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## Spidey

MoneyGal said:


> That's just the salaries. Add somewhere between 20 and 30% for benefits, including pensions.
> 
> I find these kinds of debates extremely, extremely irritating but I suspect my irritation would be shared by people here, so that's something.


I don't think many public service employees fully appreciate the value of their pensions, not to mention other benefits such as very generous sick-leave, medical benefits and vacation allowance. Most teachers pensions with 35 years would likely be worth somewhere in the range of 1 to 1.5 million, if compared to an investment that provided an equivalent income stream. How many private sector employees end up retiring with that kind of money? I also feel that to some extend teacher's salaries have to reflect conditions in the local economy. It costs far less to buy a house in Regina than in Toronto.


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## Dmoney

Charlie said:


> 1) the idea that there are lots of lazy, bad teachers. Has not been my experience. Or that of most people I know. The general consensus seems to be that the profession as a whole is terrible, but each or our children have been fortunate to have one of the few 'good' ones. My kids have had great teachers.
> 
> 2) that teachers work 6 hours a day. Not true. Longer days, many evenings and weekends.
> 
> 3) that they work a tonne more then others. Again -- most of us work evenings and weekends too. Often for less money. With fewer days off.


The point of the thread was never to say all teachers are doing a bad job, or even the majority. I don't feel that way and I don't think most people do. The point of the thread was to discuss whether or not the job that teachers do is worth what they get paid, and whether they're justified in wanting more. 

I could be great a flipping burgers and working very hard at it, but no one's going to say I should be making 60k a year. I could be a great CEO and a lot of people are going to say that I should make less than $XX million a year. The point is that we assign a value to certain professions, but when unions step in and exert their power, professions can become overvalued. 

Compare two professions. Doctors and teachers. In the free market US of A, teachers make nothing and doctors make millions. In the less free market great white north, teachers make far more, doctors make far less. 

Two sets of professionals, doing essentially the same job with more or less the same qualifications. But that just gives you an idea of where the market places teachers' salaries. So when Saskatchewan teachers say those in Alberta make more, they should be redirected south of the border to see how good they really have it.


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## Karen

I've revived this thread after several weeks of inactivity because today's BC newscasts are reporting that the BC Teachers Federation has just announced their demands for their upcoming negotiations. They just took a strike vote, which approved a possible strike in September by 90%.

They have not yet released their salary demands, but I was horrified (and so are most British Columbians, judging by the talk-show calls) to hear some of their benefit demands. The most outrageous thing they're asking for is *fully paid* compassion leave of up to 26 weeks per year (that's considerably more than half their work year!) to allow them to give compassionate care to *anybody* - not even just a relative, but anybody at all. They also want paid bereavement leave of 2.5 weeks when *a friend *or a relative dies. Some will say that it's an initial bargaining chip, that they don't really expect to get that much, but I think it's going to backfire on them. Judging by the initial reaction, I think it will turn the public against them.


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## HaroldCrump

I understand your reaction, Karen.
We have faced similar situations here in Ontario with the teacher's union.
The current liberal regime has made secret deals on the side with the unions to grant them pay increases over and above what is publicly agreed upon.
I recall the last teacher's strike (a brief one, albeit) was in '09, during the darkest and deepest days of the financial crisis.
At that time many Ontario residents were aghast at the pay increases demanded (and obtained) by the union under the benevolent blessings of our fearless leader - McGuinty.
I recall mutterings and mumblings among people, to the effect: _this wouldn't have happened under Mike Harris_


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## the-royal-mail

Yes, McGuinty has the teachers in his back pocket. Must be a strong vote bank and lobby effort for his cause. Votes.

Too bad he doesn't extend an equal amount of respect to taxpayers' money.

But go ahead Ontario, reward him with yet another majority gov't.


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## HaroldCrump

The teacher's union has already endorsed the McGuinty re-election campaign and had issued a few (printed) attack ads against the primary opposition candidate (PC Tim Hudak).
I believe the attack ads were subsequently pulled because many teachers vocally objected to such overt political participation by the union.

I'd like to add a disclaimer that this is nothing against individual teachers or union members.
This is clearly a very politically charged issue, and the opinions and beliefs of individual union members are either not voiced or often get lost in the noise.
It's a dog-eat-dog world out there these days and every group/organization is trying to get the best it can.


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## Toronto.gal

the-royal-mail said:


> 1. Too bad he doesn't extend an equal amount of respect to taxpayers' money.
> 
> 2. But go ahead Ontario, reward him with yet another majority gov't.


1. You said it right.  

I can't believe the demands being made, especially the 6 months off per year.  Why do they feel so entitled?? 

2. I did not put him there, but anyway, do not worry, he's gone!


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