# Our family spends 67k a year on stuff!!!



## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

I've been using Mint.com for a while and I always found it frustrating that RRSP contributions, etc always messed up income and expenses...

I found out that if you make investments, etc "transfers" that they don't count anymore in tracking. So that's allowed me to go in and really clean up income/expenses.

Well, I went through the last 22 months and cleaned up all of the transactions. It's now Squeaky clean.

My wife and I max RRSP's, TFSA's and RESP's. We've also started unregistered investments and have a good emergency fund. We've got a decent nest egg but I'm absolutely amazed that we spend $67k a year!!! This is all expenses. No investing (unless you count the mortgage an investment I suppose).

Now, breaking it down, it's all very legitimate...

Home (Mortgage and upkeep) - $22,818.35
Food & Dining (Family of 4) - $12,378.18
Auto & Transport (Both vehicles are paid for) - $11,483.37 ($5k gas, $3k for service, oil changes, etc and new tires, $3k Insurance)
Shopping (Kids clothing, gifts, stuff...) - $6,776.12
Property Taxes - $4300
Bills & Utilities - $1,719.12 (EDIT: $About $5k a year including phones (home and mobile) and Internet)

And a bunch of other small things that do add up, but are easily understood. Soccer or swimming lessons for example for the kids...

I'm amazed how much we spend, and also sad because I don't know how we could save more than we are now.

I don't know if our expenses are in-line with what other families are spending or if it's high? 

The Auto & Transport sucks... Wish Tesla would hurry up! This year we're on track to spend about $9k on auto and transport though so it's an improvement (no need for new tires)... But we're at 11k in food and dining... So that'll likely be higher...

*sigh...


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Bills & Utilities figure seems low to me. Does that include heat & light (or gas or whatever) for your house?


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I agree Jargey - ours is ~$3800/yr for elec/gas/wtr/sewer/phone/internet/tv. Property taxes are only ~$2300 though.

Kork - having the granularity you have is great! So many people have no idea what they spend, it is no surprise they can't save or get ahead.
Think of when that mortgage is gone! It will be like lighting a rocket in your ability to sock away more savings.
Cars are costly creatures. Are two a necessity?


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

jargey3000 said:


> Bills & Utilities figure seems low to me. Does that include heat & light (or gas or whatever) for your house?


Jargey, you are correct, that's can't be right... It's in there somewhere, the name likely changed and it 's under misc expenses... I'll dig in a little deeper and report back.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Cars are costly creatures. Are two a necessity?


Alas, we struggle with this. The one vehicle is used two days of the week while I work out of town... But with kids, we like to have the vehicle for emergencies and convenience. Expensive convenience... 

What would be PERFECT is if we could rent our car for 5 days of the week. Not sure something like that exists already though...


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Okay, so far this year, our utilities are at $4,118.89. This includes mobile and home phone, water, heat, Internet. Will be about $5k for the year. Unfortunately, this wasn't be tracked in my numbers as it comes of my wife's account. So that's another $3k a year to round it out to a nice even $70,000/year in living expenses...


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

I've been using gnucash for some time to track income/expenses. I like that I have full control of the data stored on my HDD, not somewhere in a cloud.

The food for us ( 2 persons ) is already over $13K; so I could figure $16K by year's end. That doesn't include dining out, another $500 so far.

I've been classifying all grocery store purchases as 'food' but I know we've bought grass seed, clothing, and other non-edibles there. Come January, I'll have to start breaking down the grocery store receipts to get a more accurate number, b/c $16K sounds outrageous for 2 people.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

At least some grocery stores re-group the items on the receipt into departments, rather than just the sequence they were scanned through.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Family of 4, from Jan to Aug we spent $60,832.06 , no mortgage or any other loans...
Food and booze for 6 months $9,600 (excluding restaurants), so annualized about 20K


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Userkare said:


> I've been using gnucash for some time to track income/expenses. I like that I have full control of the data stored on my HDD, not somewhere in a cloud.


I'm using gnucash as well, but I find the reporting leaves something to be desired. Have you found a way to do good detailed expense reporting? It sounds like you have - can you share how you do it?


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Spudd said:


> I'm using gnucash as well, but I find the reporting leaves something to be desired. Have you found a way to do good detailed expense reporting? It sounds like you have - can you share how you do it?


I agree, the reports are the pits. I just use the simple "Account Summary" report. By setting up the accounts with lots of placeholder sub-accounts, the summary report is granular enough that I can scan down the page and see if anything looks out-of-whack. There's an option to show accounts as hyper-links; if I see something that I want more detail for, I just click the link, and it opens a detailed tab. 

For example, you could have a top level expense account of 'Food', sub accounts of Dining Out, and Groceries. Under each of those sub-accounts, you can make further sub-accounts by the name of the restaurants or grocery stores you frequent.

The pie chart and bar graph reports are pretty cluttered if you select to view too many accounts. I've done selections of specific mid-level accounts to get a quick graphic view of its sub-accounts relative to each other.

All that said, the price was right! I've used professional accounting software when I ran a business; that would be overkill for just personal budgeting.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks Userkare! I had been trying to use the built-in expense report but your way of doing it by account sounds like it works well. Will try that in the future.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

Doesn't seem to exorbitant to me. Your food expenditure is about what mine is, but we don't eat out very much at all.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Does anyone know if there's any kind of "bulk food" purchasing options? Meaning, I'd rather but $1000 worth of meat and freeze it vs. buying little bits of a time. I suspect buying $1000 worth would provide better deals, or am I wrong?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

kork said:


> Does anyone know if there's any kind of "bulk food" purchasing options? Meaning, I'd rather but $1000 worth of meat and freeze it vs. buying little bits of a time. I suspect buying $1000 worth would provide better deals, or am I wrong?


and where are you going to freeze it?!


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## tkirk62 (Jul 1, 2015)

Go talk to any farmer. They will gladly sell you half a cow or pig.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

gibor said:


> and where are you going to freeze it?!


Freezer in the basement.



tkirk62 said:


> Go talk to any farmer. They will gladly sell you half a cow or pig.


I have a friend who does this. He says it's not much less expensive (in fact, can be more), but the advantage is that you know where the product is coming from.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

kork said:


> Freezer in the basement.


Should be very big freezer to freeze $1000 of meet


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

A butchered side of beef is around 300 lbs cut and wrapped and would cost perhaps 1500.00 or thereabouts. Doesn't take up that much room.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

frase said:


> A butchered side of beef is around 300 lbs cut and wrapped and would cost perhaps 1500.00 or thereabouts. Doesn't take up that much room.


Wouldn't be $5/lbs too expensive? And how long you gonna eat 300 lbs? Not better to buy fresh meat in RCSS?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

kork said:


> Does anyone know if there's any kind of "bulk food" purchasing options? Meaning, I'd rather but $1000 worth of meat and freeze it vs. buying little bits of a time. I suspect buying $1000 worth would provide better deals, or am I wrong?


We bought half a pig recently from a natural foods butcher who works with Mennonite farmers. I don't know if it saved us money (it was around $330 for the half a pig, which fills up our small 3.8 cu ft chest freezer 100%). But we felt good about knowing the pig was treated well during its life. At least I don't think it was significantly more $$ than the grocery store and I know those pigs weren't treated well. 

There's also Costco for buying larger packages of processed food.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> But we felt good about knowing the pig was treated well during its life


 How do you know it was treated well?! Maybe this pig was abused


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

kork said:


> Freezer in the basement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

plugging there's a cookbook you should write. I know from all your posts in the disappeared Cooking thread that you're an excellent cook, your table could not possibly look skimpy or scant or deprived or bread-&-water.

but how you manage to feed 5 people on $800 per month is beyond me. These days i usually have to slot $250-300/month per person.

that's where your book the Xtreme Shoestring Gourmet would come in handy. How do you do it? is your secret bulk buying?

the only thing i have against bulk buying is that it discourages & oppresses my creative kitchen instincts to think i might own something like a freezer full of 150 pounds of raw chicken. For 5 people, i reckon that's about 6 months of chicken, no? so for 6 long months, the presence of all those frozen birds would mean, to me, monotony, dreary repetition, predictable soup kitchen, loss of freedom, almost force-feeding.

i'm a cook who likes to go out & forage often. It must be my hunter-gatherer ancestors. I have this profound belief that, today, tomorrow, certainly this week, i'm going to stumble smack into an ultra-fresh mouth-watering surprise from a stranger's hand. I'm going to be inspired silly by finding new cranberries, confit du canard, red-stemmed swiss chard, fresh basil, ingredients for a divine 12-egg-yolk Ivory Coast dark chocolate mousse with thick whipped cream ...

not for me the predictable raw foods stored for months in root cellars & freezers. Every day i'd be wanting to go out & look for fresh pheasant. But every day the groaning freezer would force me to think Oh dear, what i've got to do instead is cook up those damn frozen old soup hens.

i'm not against homemade jams & home canned herbed tomatoes, though.

but back to you, Plugging, i know you have so many thrifty-but-delicious cooking suggestions. How about a cookbook? the Xtreme Shoestring Gourmet?


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## lost in space (Aug 31, 2015)

I went to YNAB about 18 months ago and just love it. The biggest advantage I find is fresh start if you really screw up and load a previous version if you do a minor screw up. 

Some interesting numbers (to October)

23,967.78€ in investments and 27,000 to the end of the year (didn't realize it was so high!)
9,553.84€ in travelling and we got another two trips coming up so perhaps 12,000 in total!!!
13,000€ in everyday spending, this includes the obvious like food, but not utilities. Pretty much everything that isn't a regular bills (except medical) I generally budget around 100 a week for food and 30 a week for household supplies for 2. 

Food and household goods (included in above) 4165.68€ so far

Hydro 72€ month
Phone/Internet 45€
2 cells and and Ipad under 20€ a month 
Cable 39€
Hulu/Netflix 15 dollars 
Misc 400€ - Gernany's a bit strange in how they do rent but basicly I have to add 400€ a month to the rent to cover heat, water parking and misc costs.
Rent 100€ per month 3 bedroom apartment


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> plugging there's a cookbook you should write. I know from all your posts in the disappeared Cooking thread that you're an excellent cook, your table could not possibly look skimpy or scant or deprived or bread-&-water.
> 
> but how you manage to feed 5 people on $800 per month is beyond me. These days i usually have to slot $250-300/month per person.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliment Humble. Unfortunately, I don't think I can every write a cook book as I can't follow a recipe. Hence the reason I cook, and do not bake. I tried to give a recipe to a co worker for one of my pot luck dishes and it something along the line of.... 

Me: put the ground meat on a big bowl no more than half way full
Other: how much meat is that?
Me: it depends on how big your biggest bowl is. And how expensive the meeat is.
Other: huh?
Me: when the pork is on sale, I will buy nmore and use a stock pot as my bowl.... Got ? a next... Add some chopped up water chestnut 
Other: how much?
Me: well, it depends, not eh amount of meat, which depends on the bowl and th price... Add enough until it looks 'crunchy'
Other: how do you know what is crunchy if you can't eat it?
Me: well, imagine it, if you can't see the chunks I used in, then it won't be cucnchy. If you see more water chestnuts, than meat, then it's too crunchy..l try a bout 1/4 or a little less... Next add sesame oil... Before you ask how much, it depends on the meat, add it until you can smell it faintly from about a meter a way from the bowl. Wash your hand before...

To this day, none of my coworkers have ever made it. This is just pretty much how my whole family cooks and we understand each other. Doesn't make for a good cook book though.

I have thought about creating a blog wth tips, but I would rather and the time cooking and with my kids, as my oldest gets a little older, I may have her do the documenting. She a flair for writing, which I don't like because I hate editing.

The 150 lb of chicken lasted well over a year, as my family does not like eating the same thing. I find these bulk deals keep me really creative, as I am not artistic, but do enjoying creating something different that can be consumed. How , I handled the chicken was right from the start I marinated probably 75 lbs of chicken in family sized portions in ziploc bags. It was probably 15 bags of chicken on five or six different marindates x 3. Then would probably grill three or four barbecue with meat, I am guessing 50 lbs and then shred the chicken and freeze on cookie sheets for anything you need shredded chicken for and of course I would make chicken stock it of the bones. I would also make several chicken pot pie fillings with this. The we would freeze the rest. We would make sure everything is air tight and in food saver bags. I am guessing we made 30 different meals with that chicken. We buy there meat that was me sale during that time to break it up.

I actually find my bulk buying keeps me creative otherwise there would be mini revolt at my house hold. My spouse does not like to eat the same meal more than twice a month. I have learned that my children re a little spoiled on this sense to. They like good home cooked healthy meals, and turn their nose up at processed food (I am not complaining). Yesterday, cheese was on sale so I ended up with about 10 lbs. 

I hosted Thanksgiven yesterday with my extended family. I served a large Turkey stuffed with aromatics from my garden, roasted balsamic golden, candy cane, and red beets, yams, scalloped potatoes with lots of cheese, cheese biscuits, home made cranberry compote, gravy, bacon brussel sprouts, peas, home made pumpkin pie made with the Halloween pumpkins that I roasted a couple of years ago, and girl guide cookies =). The cookies were the most expensive item. I think everything came under $50 and I sent meals home with two of the families, plus we have leftovers, and I have made the best tasting turkey stock. I think it could have served 20 people for very little per serving. I was pretty pleased with my meal. 

I do take great pleasure finding ways to cook really healthy, good tasting, inexpensive meals. Inexpensive, is the least important as I still find ways to have truffle salt and truffle oils in my pantry. Ironically, I saw red stemmed Swiss chard yesterday And black kale. I was so excited, but didn't pick it up as I already had to get Thanksgiven dinner started. I plan to go back for it tomorrow as a side to my left overs.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> ... I do take great pleasure finding ways to cook really healthy, good tasting, inexpensive meals. Inexpensive, is the least important as I still find ways to have truffle salt and truffle oils in my pantry




Plugging the above post is so funny. It's priceless. I luvvit.

as it happens, i can understand your porc meatballs with water chestnuts & sesame oil "recipe" perfectly. It doesn't mention any onion or chopped garlic yet - perhaps the narrative stopped too soon - maybe add 3/4 cup cooked rice - but i'm going to make these meatballs real soon.

as far as a cookbook or video show is concerned, there's always a time for everything & obviously the time for She Cooks She Plugs has not yet arrived. A talented daughter or editor will make a world of difference. Please don't say no.

because meeting the challenges of food security - preparing meals that are "really healthy, good tasting, inexpensive" - this is going to be a global challenge for decades to come. Someone who can communicate la fine cuisine in casual-comical, the way you can, has a lot to offer.


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## CPA Candidate (Dec 15, 2013)

One comment, debt repayment is not an expense. Mortgage principal payments should not be on your income statement.


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## Belguy (May 24, 2010)

Try not to spend money on useless 'stuff' because, sooner or later, you are faced with the often onerous task of having to part with it and that can often be a complete pain in the a$$! Prior to that, it gradually takes over your living space. I am now in my 70's and, if I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't buy nearly as much stuff--not even if it was on sale for 90% off! Live simply so that others may simply live. Learn from your elders!


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

CPA Candidate said:


> One comment, debt repayment is not an expense. Mortgage principal payments should not be on your income statement.


That's true. I think the OP's intention was a less formal "where does my paycheck go each month".


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Humble... They were actually dumplings, and i didn't bother typing the green or garlic part. He pretty did a face palm 'for galactic, add enough to over power the smell of the sesame oil. Then add more, when you think, it's way too much add some more but less than what you first added'. 

a good editor is what I need, and someone to clean up after my mess .


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^

i thought they might have been dumplings but since i don't do dumplings i opted for a meatball version with cooked rice.

you're right about galactic of course. Always add more, but never as much as you added the first time


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## junkyardbottles (Apr 3, 2009)

We are a family of 4. We spend way more than 67K. I've been keeping track for some 3 years. It's sort of ridiculous how much we spend, but it is what it is. 

In 2014, my family spent a total of $152,000. Yep. 6 digits. 

Housing, which includes mortgage, property taxes, home maintenance, home insurance, and utilities made up the biggest portion of our budget – a whooping 43% of our money is spent there. Mortgage alone takes up over 20% of our total spending! Husband wants a big property, it gives him great pleasure. So it is what it is.

Kids are the next biggest expense. Not including the increased cost of car, housing, etc. just their child care, clothing, activities, toys, etc. make up 20% of our spending. 

Groceries are the next big expense, 12% of our spending– which is about $18,000 annually. This includes everything you'd buy at Costco or Superstore. Clothes, etc.

Auto was the next big expense this year, 11% of our spending. (I had a major car accident this year, so that was about 4k of unexpected money to be spent.)

And then Charity was 3%. The remaining 10% was discretionary - hobbies, entertainment, furniture, dentists, vacations, gifts, etc.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> The remaining 10% was discretionary - hobbies, entertainment, furniture, dentists, vacations, gifts, etc.


 it's strange for me that for vacations and hobbies you have so little %  It's our biggest by far...


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## junkyardbottles (Apr 3, 2009)

gibor said:


> it's strange for me that for vacations and hobbies you have so little %  It's our biggest by far...


If I spent any more money, we'd have none left. Our vacations are mostly day-trips (the zoo, etc.), camping, and cottage. Our hobbies are probably "hanging out with family." Or cooking. We eat too much food, and we pay too much for it.


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

OP's 67k isn't too far off what we spend as a family of five. Last year we spent $47k. We don't have a mortgage, but still the other fixed costs of running a house--tax, utilities, insurance, etc.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> If I spent any more money, we'd have none left. Our vacations are mostly day-trips (the zoo, etc.), camping, and cottage. Our hobbies are probably "hanging out with family." Or cooking. We eat too much food, and we pay too much for it.





> Mortgage alone takes up over 20% of our total spending!


Here is the difference... Everyone has their own priorities ... We live in small (1800 sq ft) detached home and paid out mortgage long time ago, never did major renovation .... Sure that we could've buy huge property and pay like you 20% mortgage,,,,instead we prefer to spend those 20% on vacations


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Spudd said:


> I'm using gnucash as well, but I find the reporting leaves something to be desired. Have you found a way to do good detailed expense reporting? It sounds like you have - can you share how you do it?


I used gnucash for years, it's great.
However I bought Moneydance, and it was better a few years ago.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

We are a family of four with teen kids and we both work full time. 

For the last 10 years we have averaged pretty close to spending about $62K per year, when the capital cost of buying cars is averaged out over their lifetime. 

We are pretty frugal, and eat on about $7k/year.

e have a close track on expenses and categorizing them on an old version of Quicken, with some account records in it running back to 1992.


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## jetsfan (Mar 20, 2015)

..


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## Bowzer (Feb 25, 2015)

My life style creep has gone up a lot as my income has gone up. As long as you are making your savings goals, why feel "bad" that you are spending too much? Some people make more than others, so they can spend more than others. 

As long as the spending is "smart" ie: on a budget, no debt, making your savings, then by all means, go eat dinner at a restaurant and anything else you want!


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## FI40 (Apr 6, 2015)

kork said:


> The Auto & Transport sucks... Wish Tesla would hurry up!


Unfortunately, I think it'll be a long time before Teslas are anywhere near competitive on total cost of ownership compared to a reasonably fuel efficient and reliable gas car. The Model 3 is supposed to be 35k USD in, maybe, 2017. Who knows how they'll depreciate as well.


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## mars (Mar 11, 2014)

I tracked my spending a few years ago for a year and decided to do it again this year. I just use an excel sheet I set up and have a few charts and graphs that I put together. I also estimated a quick budget at the beginning of the year based on the information I had at the time. I group my spending into 6 categories: finance, food, transportation, housing, personal, and entertainment. My largest expense and I had it budgeted that way as well was entertainment, it accounts for just under 32% of my budget. I budgeted $47k per year (single person) and the reason my entertainment budget is so high is I capture trips, going out for drinks with friends, cable/internet/phone costs under this heading as well as any other type of entertaining recreation such as going to a ball game, theatre etc. I'm actually currently coming in under what I expected as I have only spent $34k ytd which is about 72% of my budget. I have already booked 3 weeks vacation in December which has already been paid for in my spending which means my December spending could be down a lot.

My food budget is $6k and I've spent $4.3k so far this year. This includes both grocery and restaurants. I do a lot of my own cooking so my restaurant tab isn't huge. I do not include mortgage payments or investments as spending, although I capture the interest payments in the finance category. 

When looking at my spending I was actually surprised more on the downside spending, I am only spending about half of what I thought I would spend on transportation. My car is fully paid for but I thought I would spend a lot more on repairs and gas.


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