# Furnance and hot water heater



## namelessone (Sep 28, 2012)

When do you replace furnace and hot water heater due to age not because of breakdown? I know you will tell me don't replace them if they are not broken. but nothing lasts forever.. 


Hot water heater 12 years? Cost $1000/ 12 years = $83/ year
Furnace 15 years? Cost $5000/15 years = $333 / year.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

The newer they are the more frequently they will have to be replaced, or at least serviced by a professional and parts replaced.. if they do that anymore.

I have an antique 50% efficiency gas furnace that will never have to be replaced because I've learned to do all the maintenance myself online.

The burner is cast iron and can be cleaned with a hacksaw, it could last hundreds of years.
Very simple construction compared to modern high-efficiency models and any parts I need are still available in hardware stores.

All modern parts are throwaway now and far too complex for a do-it-yourselfer, much less most technicians to bother even trying to fix it seems to me.

I would say don't replace them if they are not broken


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## wendi1 (Oct 2, 2013)

I wouldn't replace them just because they are old - I would have to have trouble repairing them, too.

An exception would be if the hot water heater showed signs that the liner had been breached (rust in the hot water, only) - I am not going to wait until I have a flood to replace it.


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## namelessone (Sep 28, 2012)

My furnace is 80% efficient model. It's 11 years old, still runs fine. It's fairly simple to maintain. The only thing I do is get a new filter every fall and check the flame and make sure it's nice and blue and stable. The thing I worry about most for furnace is the change of of gas pressure. Not sure how likely is the gas pressure changes. I don't know how to check and don't want to deal with the gas. Another thing is the heat exchange cracking. There's an air intake hose in the basement that brings in fresh air constantly. I also have CO alarm so hopefully that'll prevent CO problem in case it happens. I guess if the heat exchanger cracks, I can detect from the change in the flame? 
I am not too crazy about upgrading it to high efficiency. I spend around $50/month on gas for heating during winter.(Small 1100 sq ft row unit). High efficient unit won't save me much. ($50X6*20% = $60/year saving with 100% efficient furnace. ) 

For the water heater, I test the T&P valve every fall to prevent it from rust up. Other than that, there's the mineral deposit at the bottom. And I heard story about old hot water heater blowing up. It's scary. 


But generally, with recent models, how long do they last ?


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

namelessone said:


> And I heard story about old hot water heater blowing up. It's scary.
> 
> But generally, with recent models, how long do they last ?


The exploding HWT happened due to DIY idiots installing them improperly. You're probably more likely to get struck by lightning than have an exploding hot water tank nowadays.

HWT life will depend on the water source quality. For areas with harder water, you might only get 8-10 years. It it's soft water, then 20-30 is possible.
Figure at least 20 years for a full furnace, with maybe $1000 in repairs/maintenance over that time period. Most furnaces are well oversized for the homes they are installed in. This is actually a bad thing as the heat exchanger gets a lot of thermal cycles on it due to the on-off nature of an oversized furnace. And your house won't be as comfortable with the short blasts of hot air.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Just replaced my hot water tank...it started to show signs of leaking, that's the only reason to probably replace it. If you get "less" hot water than expected, you usually replace the inside pipe. No point in replacing just to replace.


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## Davis (Nov 11, 2014)

Your furnace and water heater company will tell you to replace them after ten years because they make more money that way. I'd recommend doing that if I owned any shares in those companies, but I don't so I'd say replace them when they break down. And drain a bucket or two of water from the tap at the bottom of you water heater to clear out the rust.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I have a new in 2003 B vented hot water tank - low tech, but a perennial and more than literal 'hole in the roof'. At some time I will be going to power vented to shout off the B vent. But that will not happen until the hwt dies. I pulled the sacrificial anode for inspection when it was 5 years old, and not a sign of any corrosion - I guess that is a benefit of being on a Great Lake supplied municipals water system.

The 90+% efficient furnace was also a 2003 install. I do my own maintenance, and yes they are complex little buggers, compared to an 80% unit. 

I have to date changed an igniter. I am planning to pull the blower for a vacuuming this year; you really have a hard time trying to get it clean reaching in from the electrostatic precipitator chamber next to it in the cold air return path. 

About once a season I need to syringe in about 150mL of water into the water trap - it seems to dry out in the driest months ,and then the same pressure switches readings across the air gapped water trap won't let the furnace start up. You get your ear tuned to the weird start up sequence noises and know it needs a bit of water. 

I am budgeting to change the furnace out in 25 years. By then the electrolytic capacitors on the microprocessor board will be getting close to being too dry and I expect the processor to thus become more flaky as they get out of spec.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I too change the anode in my hot water tank about every 4 years. We have a water softener and that helps degrade the tank. I change the tanks myself. It's pretty easy and the next change will be easier because of the new shark-bite fittings. Calgary water is very hard on water heaters. 

I have an old 60% efficient furnace and regularly get the pitch to upgrade my furnace. I don't bite. I also have a few CO monitors in the house to let me know if there is a problem. Typically the replacement cost is $5000 and they all want to come out to have a look which I decline. So $5000 at 2% is $100 as a yearly cost in interest - but typically my investments are 5%. In addition, to maintain warranty, they require a yearly inspection which costs $150. Gas costs last year was $1100. I figure hot water gas costs including deliver charges are about $600 ($50 per month in summer), so gas for heat costs me about $500 and that is for about 6 months in fall, winter and spring. If I save 40% of gas usage, and assume that translates into a 40% reduction in gas charges would be about $200 in yearly gas savings. So my yearly cost for a new furnace and to maintain it is $250 (for financing and inspections) - all for a $200 savings and of course that is not worth it. If my ROI is %5 payout is even more negative. Now if gas goes from $3 per GJ to $10, the benefit of a furnace change would be there. Also - my 25 year old furnace is MUCH more reliable than the newer ones. I've only changed the pilot thermocouple once, and the fan temperature switch once, plus filters and I oil the motor yearly.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

With the continuing decline of natural gas prices in North America, it's hard to make an economic argument for upgrading a gas appliance before it wears out. (unless you have one of the old 50% "standard" efficiency furnaces - they just p*ss energy up the flue). Buy a CO detector to protect you against the heat exchanger leaking. Main risk is that you may have to replace a furnace on an emergency basis in mid-winter, which may lead to non-competitive pricing.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

OhGreatGuru said:


> (unless you have one of the old 50% "standard" efficiency furnaces - they just p*ss energy up the flue).


^Very true, but I heat mainly with wood most of the time, with the antique gas furnace mainly acting as back-up for when I don't have a fire going (and to flush out the air if the woodstove burps out some smoke).


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## briana26 (Sep 24, 2015)

Are these safe for use.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

^So far so good, I've lived here for 30 years so far and the place hasn't burned down yet, & no carbon monoxide problems either yet.

To be clear I have a separate woodstove and a gas furnace, it's not some kind of combo or anything.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

namelessone said:


> My furnace is 80% efficient model. It's 11 years old, still runs fine. It's fairly simple to maintain. The only thing I do is get a new filter every fall and check the flame and make sure it's nice and blue and stable. The thing I worry about most for furnace is the change of of gas pressure. Not sure how likely is the gas pressure changes. I don't know how to check and don't want to deal with the gas.


I wouldn't replace a mid efficiency furnace unless it really has problems. Mine is 21 years old (Miller-Nordyne) vents through a chimney vent and still going strong. I did replace the original blower motor with an Evergreen DC commutated motor (ordered on line) and that saves about 25% of electricity that the old blower used.
the only other thing I had replaced in 20 years (it was installed in 1994 was the ignitor. i didn't have a spare one in the middle of January, so I had to call a furnace tech in to service it on a weekend..that was expensive. I now have a spare ignitor in case the replacement fails someday.

I also have TWO CO monitor alarms. one in the basement next to the furnace and one upstairs over a vent for early detection. These CO alarms and smoke detectors are
now compulsory in Ontario, especially if you have gas fired heating equipment, such as a HWT or furnace. 



> Another thing is the heat exchange cracking. There's an air intake hose in the basement that brings in fresh air constantly. *I also have CO alarm so hopefully that'll prevent CO problem in case it happens*. I guess if the heat exchanger cracks, I can detect from the change in the flame?


Carbon monoxide is the product of improper combustion, NOT heat exchanger cracks. While heat exchangers could crack, you have to be careful if you call in a service tech to examine the heat exchanger. once they learn the age of the furnace, ('too old") they will seize the opportunity to sell you a new furnace by telling you, " oh yes they see a "tiny crack' in the heat exchanger and must "condemn it with a red tag". Once they red tag the furnace, you ARE COMMITTED to have their firm install a new furnace for you..up to $5000 in most cases.
Many perfectly good mid efficiency furnaces are scrapped by unscrupulous service techs working for heating contractors..and as a homeowner..you can only trust them at their word.
if they decide they want to sell you a high efficiency unit, you have to either buy from them or another dealer..because they will turn off the gas to your 'condemned furnace"
and red tag it and inform the safety authorities (TSSA) you have an unsafe condition with your heating unit. in other words..they GOT YOU!




> I am not too crazy about upgrading it to high efficiency. I spend around $50/month on gas for heating during winter.(Small 1100 sq ft row unit). High efficient unit won't save me much. ($50X6*20% = $60/year saving with 100% efficient furnace. )


*You are probably not going to save anything replacing your existing 80% efficiency with the the new higher efficiency unit. *besides you will then need a yearly maintenance plan to repair it as it starts to give trouble after the manufacturers 1 year warranty expires...lets say it cost $4500 to install + HST...that's ($585) in HST, so you already over $5000. Now add financing charges (up to 20% per annum..over 60 months..and all of a sudden that $5000 new furnace ($83 per month principle) will run you another $18 a month in finance charges..$101. Now over 60 months in repayments, thats $6,060!



> For the water heater, I test the T&P valve every fall to prevent it from rust up. Other than that, there's the mineral deposit at the bottom. And I heard story about old hot water heater blowing up. It's scary.


Water heaters DO NOT BLOW UP...unless the pressure relief valve is removed or stuck, and that rarely happens if the gas thermostat on the heater is working..so don't fear!
my hWT is now 15 years old (its one of the glass lined GE tanks with a pilot flame)..works great, no problems over the years and I self installed it in 2000, so I have owned it outright now for 15 years and saved a LOT of monthly rentals..probably over $1800 on the tank itself in monthly rental fees.



> But generally, with recent models, how long do they last ?


They last as long as they need to be paid off.. 5-10 years. Some fail before that because the metal used is thinner and the electronics more complex. leading to unexpected failures..requiring a maintenance plan every year.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mrPPincer said:


> The newer they are the more frequently they will have to be replaced, or at least serviced by a professional and parts replaced.. if they do that anymore.
> 
> I have an antique 50% efficiency gas furnace that will never have to be replaced because I've learned to do all the maintenance myself online.
> 
> ...


Very true. As soon as the prorated 5 year warranty runs out, and the furnace is finally paid off), the techs will find a way to make your 5 year old "High tech/high efficiency "furnace 'unrepairable" and obsolete. After all, they don't make any money on the repeated service calls, and in some cases if the trouble in the furnace is intermittent, requiring more than one call to service it for the same problem...they will suggest to replace it for reliabilty, as many newer furnace techs cannot accurately diagnose electronic problems in the furnace SENSORS and processor control boards.

It's a game.


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## AirPro (Mar 31, 2014)

Note that some insurance providers will not cover damage caused by a leaking water heater after it reaches a certain age. Check the fine print of your policy to find out if yours is one of them.

Unless your furnace is really inefficient there's no real reason to replace it. That $333 annual cost that you calculated should cover the cost of repairs indefinitely and also cover the additional cost of running an older lower efficiency furnace.

One exception would be if you run your blower continuously then a furnace with a newer ECM blower could result in considerable savings.

Traditionally manufacturers have sold new furnaces on the back of efficiency improvements but they're now at a point where there are very slim pickings left. The only way they can sell new furnaces moving forward is by designing them to fail and ensuring that replacement parts are prohibitively expensive..


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> So my yearly cost for a new furnace and to maintain it is $250 (for financing and inspections) - all for a $200 savings and of course that is not worth it. If my ROI is %5 payout is even more negative. Now if gas goes from $3 per GJ to $10, the benefit of a furnace change would be there.* Also - my 25 year old furnace is MUCH more reliable than the newer ones. I've only changed the pilot thermocouple once, and the fan temperature switch once, plus filters and I oil the motor yearly*.


There you go. The older furnaces are much simpler. While some do (like mine), have a fan motor controller and sensors (flame rollout-heat sensor etc) they use a more proven design control board (White-Rogers or similar), and do not depend on the fancy logic board systems incorporated into the new furnaces. 

The heat exchanger on the older furnaces is made from heavier metal and the chance of the heat exchangers "cracking" is extremely rare. 
The new ones, made in China or offshore do not last as long as the older ones. If you get 5-10 years of life from them you are doing well, and that is not without yearly inspections that you are charged for. 

My neighbour next door, HAD a Lennox installed back about 7 years ago...I saw the furnace maintenance guy show up a few times to fix problems on it over the years. 
In the end, they told her to buy a new more "reliable" furnace to replace the unreliable 95% efficient Lennox furnace. So she did not sve Anything in heating costs by installing a more efficient furnace from Lennox.

My Lennox A/C* installed in 1995, failed in 2008.* That's about 13 years of intermittent service only in the hottest part of the summer. The rest of the time it sat around unused.
The A/C repairman that came to my place, told me that Lennox once did a good reputation, but then somebody bought them out and had the furnaces made elsewhere.

Since that time, he's had to remove a LOT of them.

In my case, ALL of the freon escaped to the atmosphere while it sat unused. Repair man was puzzled as to how that could happen,and pressurized the system with nitrogen to
try and spot the leak. He then found refrigerant oil on the bottom of the outside unit..*.the condenser coils WERE MADE OF POROUS (Chinese) COPPER! *which allowed the gas to escape over time.

He replaced it with a Keeprite unit which he feels is one of the better on the market. Had to change all the copper runs because the Keeprite uses a different refrigerant oil for the compressor, which is not compatible with the old R22 freon refrigerant oil. 

Since then after 7 years it is working without any problems, and I don't have a maintenace contract. I had one for one year only, after the ignitor failed. *The service guys did NOTHING FOR THE $130 THEY CHARGED ME FOR THE 1 YEAR SERVICE PLAN.* No inspections. After I called them insisting they show up and DO something to earn that money, they showed up, vacumned out the inside of the furnace and washed the air filter. That was the extent of their service on my furnace.
Naturally, I did not renew with them after the 1 year maintenance contract expired! 

So there you go..you spend your money, and takes your chances..in the end YOU SAVE NOTHING!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AirPro said:


> Note that some insurance providers will not cover damage caused by a leaking water heater after it reaches a certain age. Check the fine print of your policy to find out if yours is one of them.
> 
> Unless your furnace is really inefficient there's no real reason to replace it. That $333 annual cost that you calculated should cover the cost of repairs indefinitely and also cover the additional cost of running an older lower efficiency furnace.
> 
> ...


You can retrofit ANY GAS FURNACE WITH THE ECM EVERGREEN commutated DC motor. 4 speeds, and you can select which speeds for heating and which for cooling. I bought one online about 3 years ago, and it is claimed to save 25% on electricity.
This is a smart motor with the speed selection circuit built into the motor to sense ramp-up speed and a the ramp down speed. 

Very reliable. I had a independent HVAC tech come to install it and remove the old split phase 1/2 HP original equipped motor. It needed a couple connections to the furnace circuit board, so I didn't want to take a chance myself and hook up to the wrong terminals on the board. 
Came with a full instruction book and explanations on operation. 
Great product for retrofits, and you don't need to buy a new furnace. 

https://www.genteqmotors.com/Products/Aftermarket/Evergreen_IM/


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

carverman said:


> ... *You are probably not going to save anything replacing your existing 80% efficiency with the the new higher efficiency unit. *besides you will then need a yearly maintenance plan to repair it as it starts to give trouble after the manufacturers 1 year warranty expires...


Either this is city specific or they've been monkeying with the design.

The high efficiency furnace I put in to replace the electric base board heating went around seven years before there was problems getting the flame lit. A service call resulted in the ignitor being replaced for less than $200. That's the total cost for ten years. 

I don't know what's happened since as I sold the house.


It was way cheaper than the baseboard heating. It did take a while to find a contractor willing to run the duct work properly. Then despite the gas company saying they could run the gas line in as little as three months - it took two years before they decided it was worth their while.


Cheers


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Either this is city specific or they've been monkeying with the design.
> 
> The high efficiency furnace I put in to replace the electric base board heating went around seven years before there was problems getting the flame lit. A service call resulted in the ignitor being replaced for less than $200. That's the total cost for ten years.


Like I mentioned in a previous post. It depends on who you call and which contractor you call. An ignitor is easy to replace. When I got caught in January 3 or 4 years ago, on a weekend,
I called the guys that installed the furnace in the first place. It was a weekend emergency call, so I paid more, about ($59 for the ignitor), and the rest,
($200 for the service call/labour to replace it.

It was Sunday morning, but at least the guy came from across Ottawa (Orleans), as I live in the west end, so travelling time had to be included. I didn't care at that point since the house was starting to cool down. It was good to have the heat back on! 

That was after 18 yrs, of trouble free service. 1994-2012. Can't beat that for reliability. I bought a spare ignitor for it now,
Even my friend can install it. It's very accessible and very easy to install on a two wire plug.

Ignitors are simple repairs and easy to diagnose. If it doesn't glow when the furnace starts to operate, the flame sensor shuts down the flow of gas
and it will go through it's cycle over and over again depending on the thermostat setting, or the furnace emergency shut off wall switch. (shut down).


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> *You are probably not going to save anything replacing your existing 80% efficiency with the the new higher efficiency unit. *


Tough call if one will save money and how long it'll take. If you live in a colder area where the furnace is used 7+ months a year it'll obviously save you more each month, not so much in warmer areas. I went from an old rated "mid efficiency" to a "high efficiency" and the gas savings are significant, best guess would be 40-50% less (note: I also added some roof insulation so that'll skew the numbers a bit) so it appears to be more than the ratings would lead you to believe. On top of that is some savings due to the better blower motor but that didn't seem as significant on the monthly electric bill though.

If you're on the fence about getting a new furnace keep an eye out for Prov/Federal rebates, I got $890 back on my furnace from the Feds.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

It is true that with increasing efficiencies you get to the point of diminishing returns. Sometimes it's good to do, just for saving resources. Once the gas is burned, you can't get it back. I shudder at the thought that there's 50% eff furnaces out there. Regardless of how much the inefficiency costs, would you buy twice as much food, just to throw out half of it? Nobody would say that, but since gas (and by products) are invisible, one quickly forgets about the waste.
Look at doing air sealing and increased insulation if you want smaller investments that pay off, without maintenance, for a long time. As an example, blowing more insulation in to your attic (say R60 up from the standard R40) will pay dividends as it's not an expensive proposition. Honeycomb blinds save a fair amount due to their insulating properties

The best time to do all this stuff is when you build a house. Second best time is now.

We are building a home right now. 96% eff 2 stage, 2 zone furnace going in. They originally spec'd a 100K btu unit and I told them that was too big, so they dropped it down to 80K. That's probably still too big. If you have your gas bills, its pretty easy to figure out what size of furnace you actually need. Having a properly sized one means a longer life.
We are also going well above standard insulation and air sealing. Combined with large south facing windows and partial passive solar design, I think our furnace will only be needed for a few months a year.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i'm buying a new furnace, just starting to do the research. This is not a familiar patch for me.

wondering if i could ask the gurus about all these wall-mounted boiler systems the companies are selling these days. Both oil-fired & gas-fired systems. I'm especially doubtful about the ones that claim to heat hot water for household use as well.

i remember those coil hot water heating appliances in northern europe. They never seemed to deliver the kind of hot bath water or washing machine water that we know in north America.

i haven't googled yet to see what problems are associated with the wall mounts, but my instinct leads me towards an old-fashioned floor mount ...

(aside to noblea) if i'm following you correctly about lower capacity heating appliances, is it that they cycle on & off less frequently, so it can be expected that they will last longer?

but if they are burning for longer periods of time - ie not cycling off so frequently - aren't they consuming more fuel?


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> i'm buying a new furnace, just starting to do the research. This is not a familiar patch for me.
> 
> wondering if i could ask the gurus about all these wall-mounted boiler systems the companies are selling these days. Both oil-fired & gas-fired systems. I'm especially doubtful about the ones that claim to heat hot water for household use as well.
> 
> ...


The wall mount boilers you're being sold are pretty slick. They are WAY bigger than the ones you remember from Europe. Some of these units can get in to the 200K Btu range, all at very high efficiency. Yes, they can do hot water and heating at the same time. In a retrofit you would generally still have a 'furnace' though with no burner, just a fan coil (the boiler output goes through it), and a standby hot water tank which is heated by the boiler and provides your hot water. If you have radiant heat, then the same system works, minus the furnace/fan coil. The boilers are much smarter than a typical furnace and can modulate the heat from very small to full blast. They are designed to a different code than furnaces I believe. If installed and sized properly, they will generally outlast a furnace by almost double. The main downside is of course only a single source of heat for your whole house. I really wanted to do a boiler system with hydronic heat throughout, but that eliminates the possibility for AC and makes the HRV system more costly. Hydronic tubes are way more to install than HVAC ducting. A good boiler can be had for 4-5K (supply price, not installed). A good high eff furnace is about 3K, not installed. I've seen people use on demand hot water heaters instead of a boiler. Some brands allow the use of the on demand HW heaters for space heating, but some do not. They're not really designed for that, are aren't as smart as a proper boiler, but they can work, and are about half the price or more of a proper boiler.

On properly sized furnaces, yes on the very coldest night of the year, you want your furnace to be on 80% of the time. The vast majority of furnaces are oversized these days. Which means they go from cold to full blast and back off again. The thermal cycling is bad for the heat exchanger, and electric motors prefer to be on constantly rather than on/off. Its the thermal cycling that reduces the furnace life. The other benefit of a properly sized furnace is nice, constant heat. An oversized one will result in blasts of hot air to the point of being uncomfortable, then cold air. Your gas use is identical in both cases as your gas usage is a function of the heat loss in the house, not the furnace size. Your electricity use may be a tad higher in the properly sized furnace situation, but you'll have a much more comfortable house. Constant air flow is what maintains even temperatures.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

nobleea said:


> It is true that with increasing efficiencies you get to the point of diminishing returns. Sometimes it's good to do, just for saving resources. Once the gas is burned, you can't get it back. I shudder at the thought that there's 50% eff furnaces out there. Regardless of how much the inefficiency costs, would you buy twice as much food, just to throw out half of it?
> We are also going well above standard insulation and air sealing. Combined with large south facing windows and partial passive solar design, I think our furnace will only be needed for a few months a year.


All well and good and in colder climates like Northern Alberta, it makes sense, but other than extra in insulation in the attic and building the house with 2x6 construction, most of us living in 45 year old
houses have to make do with what was provided at time of build. Today it takes tens of thousands to do anything to improve heat rententon in a resale. Last year. I decided to redo the mansard roof on mine
and add 3 inches of styrofoam sheets in the 2x4 walls and ripped out the loose friction fit fiberglass batts. The contractor also sprayed liquid foam over the styrofoam sheets and that gave about 4.5 inches 
of insulation (R-20) in the walls. Made a big difference last winter..no more drafts from the walls. However with the roof shingles and new roof boards and labour..about $18,623 incl tax.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

noblea, thankx a million. I shall study your message most carefully.

i don't think it will be a retrofit, i'll probably be going from oil-fired boiler system to gas-fired boiler system. It's not a forced air system. The house still has the original cast iron radiators from 1895. These are very efficient heat sources in a room, i'm told.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

For sure it can get expensive. There are cheaper things that can be done. Blowing in attic insulation, insulating and sealing your basement rim joist properly (its an easy DIY thing as long as the basement's not drywalled). Sealing the electrical outlets/switches that are on exterior walls and ceilings. Insulating blinds. Door replacement or even just seal replacement. Ripping off the trim around windows and spray foaming around the windows assuming that's not already done. Making sure your interior doors have at least 1/2" clearance between door and floor (when the door is closed, you still allow air flow). Installing dampers on bathroom, range, and dryer vents. Setback thermostats. Landscape design and planting to reduce windwashing of your house in the winter (this can have a big impact). Using deciduous trees to shade west and south facing windows in the summer to reduce your cooling bill.

These are all pretty inexpensive DIY things that won't make a huge impact by themselves but will result in energy savings but more importantly a much more comfortable home.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> noblea, thankx a million. I shall study your message most carefully.
> 
> i don't think it will be a retrofit, i'll probably be going from oil-fired boiler system to gas-fired boiler system. It's not a forced air system. The house still has the original cast iron radiators from 1895. These are very efficient heat sources in a room, i'm told.


Yes, they are efficient. Most people don't like them due to aesthetics and for potential safety reasons (hot to touch), but they work well. A wall mounted modulating, condensing (high eff) boiler will work perfectly in your application. You would also have endless hot water, combined with a standby tank, at whatever flow rate you want.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> i'm buying a new furnace, just starting to do the research. This is not a familiar patch for me.
> 
> wondering if i could ask the gurus about all these wall-mounted boiler systems the companies are selling these days. Both oil-fired & gas-fired systems. I'm especially doubtful about the ones that claim to heat hot water for household use as well.


I'm not a guru, I'll just put my 2 cents regarding the combination boiler / tankless water heater as that is what I currently have. I have radiant heating as well as the house was built in the early 1900s.

It works well, the previous owner had changed to a Baxi Luna (I forget the model number off-hand). The catch for that particular manufacturer is that it is Italian and it can be difficult to figure out the operation, but heating costs (hot water and home heat) is pretty low. It never is more than $90/month, but Enbridge has me on a flattened payment plan during winter months. 

Being tankless does mean that you require some startup, i.e. let the hot water run a bit before it becomes hot, but otherwise it is pretty good. It's a small wall-mounted unit. I did have to have the fan replaced recently, but then again, the unit was about 8 years old.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

another million thanks.

re the aesthetics, surely beauty has to be in the eye of the beholder here. All those antique cast iron rads have beautiful victorian patterns, acanthus & other leaf motif patterns, slightly cast into their shoulders ... did u know that people are buying these old rads from junkyards for big prices these days, i'm told, then removing the layers of paint to reveal the original ironwork? i'm told that a new cast iron rad costs more than $1000.

i grew up in, all my friends grew up in, i've always lived in, old dwellings with various kinds of do-not-touch-hot heating device risks. And we've all raised squadrons of kids in these dwellings. I've never heard of an incident where any child was ever hurt!


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> i grew up in, all my friends grew up in, i've always lived in, old dwellings with various kinds of do-not-touch-hot heating device risks. And we've all raised squadrons of kids in these dwellings. I've never heard of an incident where any child was ever hurt!


I suspect any heat issues with radiators are for the steam-based radiators. As mine are water-based, and probably yours as well, it doesn't get hot to the touch, i.e. I suspect that the water is only a few degrees above whatever the room temperature is set at.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> another million thanks.
> 
> re the aesthetics, surely beauty has to be in the eye of the beholder here. All those antique cast iron rads have beautiful victorian patterns, acanthus & other leaf motif patterns, slightly cast into their shoulders ... did u know that people are buying these old rads from junkyards for big prices these days, i'm told, then removing the layers of paint to reveal the original ironwork? i'm told that a new cast iron rad costs more than $1000.
> 
> i grew up in, all my friends grew up in, i've always lived in, old dwellings with various kinds of do-not-touch-hot heating device risks. And we've all raised squadrons of kids in these dwellings. I've never heard of an incident where any child was ever hurt!


Yes, what's old is new again. Some people like them as decorations. There's been at least one generation of people who've never experienced the radiators, possibly two (only reason I know about them is we lived in Europe for a few years). I definitely burned myself a couple times touching the surface by accident. Minor burns. Some parts of the country have never had radiators in single family homes.


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## namelessone (Sep 28, 2012)

carverman said:


> Carbon monoxide is the product of improper combustion, NOT heat exchanger cracks. .


Good to know! 
I also learned: good combustion = blue flame. Bad combustion = yellow flame. I inspect the colour and shape of the flame on furnace and water heater regularly.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Soooo - if you saw yellow flame - what would you do?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Soooo - if you saw yellow flame - what would you do?


Blue flame means that the air to fuel mixture is of the right proportions (stoichiometric) and the manifold pressure and fresh air oxygen intake is enough for the gas to burn at higher temperatures.
An orange/yellow flame means that there are external influences to change the colour spectrum of the flame. That could be a simple as cleaning the jets or burners on the appliances from any carbon buildup (or external chemical influence) which was causing the change in colour. 

https://www.duke-energy.com/pdfs/100483-natural-gas-safety.pdf



> *What color is your flame?*
> On a natural gas appliance, the color of the flame is a good indicator of incomplete combustion.
> The flame should always burn blue, not orange or yellow. If the flame is not blue, it may be a sign
> that the appliance needs adjusting or cleaning.
> ...


My nat gas fireplace has an orange flickering flame. The gas burner is designed not to burn at the higher temperatures that produce the blue flame spectrum. Looks good esthetically simulating a wood burning fireplace, and provides enough heat (internal fan comes on at a specific temperature( to heat the entire upstairs of my house and it is controlled by a thermostat to a temp I set (70F) on my remote fireplace specific hand held remote. It can be turned to ON (or OFF) but it gets too hot for me, therefore I prefer to leave it on AUTO and it controls the 6 volt battery operated gas valve, (independent of 115VAC) for any power outages. 

My furnace works off a heat demand thermostat in the cooler basement to come on and set the basement temp to about 65F,
on colder nights or those frigid winter days. I would say that my gas fireplace as a heating appliance and my 85% efficient forced draft furnace share the heating requirements about 50-50.

http://www.chrisinch.com/blog/articles/show/why-are-the-flames-on-my-range-yellow/

more info on flame colour and temperature

http://maggiemaggio.com/color/2011/08/fire-ii-color-and-temperature/


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I understand the desire for a blue flame and the stoichiometric requirements for it. And yes, the NG fireplaces are designed to produce a yellow flame to simulate wood combustion but furnaces should burn blue.

If normally the furnace produced a blue flame then it started to go more and more yellow, what would you clean and adjust - the burners? I don't think I'd adjust the main flame pressure though. My parents' furnace, with the induced draft fan, (or inducer or other name) started to show carbon monoxide in the exhaust, not the house air, with a blue flame and the Direct Energy 'Professionals' ( I mean parts replacers) changed the gas valve and flame sensor, then tried to sell them a new furnace (because they were getting pressure from their office) because of the carbon monoxide readings which they reported to try to scare them into the new furnace. I told them to ask where the CO readings were coming from and when it was in the exhaust. I suggested changing the induced draft fan because I've seen where it started to slow down because the bearings started to get stiff and not pull as much air into the flame area so it was causing it to burning too rich. This was a $250 part (plus labour) and they didn't to change it but finally gave in because they couldn't sell a new furnace and they had a contract and obviously the heat exchanger wasn't cracked even though they looked and looked and looked. They put the new ID fan in and all is fine now. 

There is a pressure adjustment on the gas valve, but unless you have the equipment to measure it, you shouldn't adjust it. My furnace is the old pilot type and IF I saw a yellow flame, not sure what I would do to remedy the situation. That's why I was wondering what you would do if you saw a yellow flame. To me the parts replacers will only try to sell you a new furnace rather than try to fix the problem.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I understand the desire for a blue flame and the stoichiometric requirements for it. And yes, the NG fireplaces are designed to produce a yellow flame to simulate wood combustion but furnaces should burn blue.


Correct you are Brian. My furnace burns with a blue flame on the manifold.



> If normally the furnace produced a blue flame then it started to go more and more yellow, what would you clean and adjust - the burners? I don't think I'd adjust the main flame pressure though. My parents' furnace, with the induced draft fan, (or inducer or other name) started to show carbon monoxide in the exhaust, not the house air, with a blue flame and the Direct Energy 'Professionals' ( I mean parts replacers) changed the gas valve and flame sensor, then tried to sell them a new furnace (because they were getting pressure from their office) because of the *carbon monoxide readings which they reported to try to scare them into the new furnace.*


As I mentioned before, if you call the big companies like Direct Energy, they will try and sell you a new furnace..after all they make more money from the new service than repeated service calls to diagnose an older furnace. If the furnace in question is more than 10 years old, and they stick a CO emission probe in the exhaust stack,and find some "CO", that's the excuse they need to red tag the furnace, and then you are stuck dealing with them selling you a new furnace.

I use an independent furnace repair guy that is gas qualified. He told me not to call the "big guys' to run a combustion test on your furnace because they will normally find 
'something wrong with it " to convince you to buy a new one. They may be parts swappers, but they also work on secret commissions, depending on how many furnaces they
can sell. 



> I told them to ask where the CO readings were coming from and when it was in the exhaust. I suggested changing the induced draft fan because I've seen where *it started to slow down because the bearings started to get stiff and not pull as much air into the flame area so it was causing it to burning too rich*. This was a $250 part (plus labour) and they didn't to change it but *finally gave in because they couldn't sell a new furnace and they had a contract and obviously the heat exchanger wasn't cracked *even though they looked and looked and looked. They put the new ID fan in and all is fine now.


Yes Brian, the 'snakes know how to play their game". Most people don't have any knowledge of furnaces, and trust their service providers..which are in the game to make a profit off you.
I also have the induced fan motor, on the exhaust, accessible with bronze sleeve bearings front and back that can be oiled each fall with a little engine oil. That is all it takes to keep
those little motors from running slow due to bearing friction or seizing up and at that point the furnace stops working.
But do you think that the "snakes" could oil the induced draft ventor motor..of course not! They just come around to vacumn out the dust out of the burner/gas valve and clean the
air filter..duh!..and "oh yes..you should get a new furnace from us..we got this deal on now..25% off if you hurry"..uh huh!



> There is a pressure adjustment on the gas valve, but unless you have the equipment to measure it, you shouldn't adjust it. My furnace is the old pilot type and IF I saw a yellow flame, not sure what I would do to remedy the situation. That's why I was wondering what you would do if you saw a yellow flame. To me the parts replacers will only try to sell you a new furnace rather than try to fix the problem.


My 21yr old Miller-Nordyne 85,000 btu, is a beautifully made gas furnace. i got the handbook complete with the schematic which I can read and find where each sensor is in the furnace.
I swapped out the old split phase 1/2 HP fan motor with the new evergreen DC commutated version..it was pricey especially with the independent service contractor to install it,
but the furnace runs like a top. 


As far as the yellow flame...perhaps there is a pressure difference between the gas valve orfice (wherever that is), and how the gas gets distributed to the (4 burners?) on the burner manifold, OR... there is some obstruction (crud at the gas orfice on the gas valve) that reduces the gas flow. 

It's a lot similar to propane BBQ.
If the gas orfices and manifold/burner is relatively new with no holes in the burners, and the air is coming in for complete combustion to the BBQ burner, the flame will be hotter (complete combustion) and BLUE. 
Once the burner develops a few holes in it, due to the stainless steel 'rusting and burning out in places), you will NOT see a blue flame on the burner jets (holes), 
because the pressure differential from the gas orfice(s) and the burner will not be as high...ie: less gas flow due to less gas pressure (gas escaping out of rusted out
burner) with the same oxygen present in gas burner , you will see an orange/yellow flame. Still able to cook on it, but not as efficiently.

Therefore, my bet is that the gas orfice at the gas valve is "plugged a bit" over years of use (oxidization crud), and needs to be replaced. You have to be careful with these orfice jets
as they are specifically designed to let out so much gas at any given time for complete combustion. ie: you should not try to enlarge the orfice..bad!


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

HI Cman. 
Sounds like you have been around furnaces a lot. Me too but only a bit. I started buying cast iron burners for my BBQ from CT and they have lasted much longer than those stainless ones. 
I agree people should not monkey around with the burner orifices (other than to clean them) or adjust gas valve pressures. They are designed for specific operating pressures. To me though, if a plugged orifice reduces gas flow, then it should run in a lean mode - excess oxygen and burn blue - just less heat. With a slowing ID fan or restricted air flow to the furnace, that would allow a rich condition (excess gas and not enough oxygen) and result in incomplete combustion thus CO in the exhaust - but no CO in the house air which could be as a result of a crack in the heat exchanger. The problem with this is not a health risk but the furnace is running out of spec and expelling CO into the atmosphere. Not good but not going to kill you either.
The service techs don't touch the ID fans unless they replace them. You're right - a little lube and they will run forever (well a long time anyway). One Tech told a neighbor that those fans should not be oiled but strangely, clearly stamped on the motor was "Oil Yearly". Planned failures that are expensive to repair. I think one poster here said he was charged $700 to replace it with 2 service visits. 
The other issue could be gas quality or changing "heat value". Sometimes gas plant maintenance or operational upsets affects gas components. Years ago at a gas plant west of Calgary, they started to strip the rich components out of the natural gas and everyone's gas usage jumped because there was less 'heat' in the gas and furnaces ran longer. Then the regulators stepped in and told them to stop doing that. You will notice on your gas bill (maybe) a heat value to convert metered volume into BTU's or GJ's. That gets adjusted occasionally because of diddling with natural gas components. That has to change the way the furnace burns fuel too.


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## namelessone (Sep 28, 2012)

Got a Gas Furnace?
Just Had Your Furnace Inspection/Tune-up? 
If you hear “carbon monoxide”
and “heat exchanger crack”
in the same sentence,
you are about to be “sold”.


http://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> HI Cman.
> Sounds like you have been around furnaces a lot.


Not really , but I am a troubleshooter by nature, and Nortel paid me a good salary to troubleshoot their digital switches throughout the world, especially the complicated Central Control computers.
I was the last resort for field support and interfaced with the design engineers when I found an anomaly in the design that could cause hardware or software failures. Being hardware type from a long way back, I took some courses in their proprietary language (PROTEL) and learned to code patches as well as write big recovery software features. I even learned to go down to opcodes in the processors and step the failed ones through. The design was two synchronous processors (MC88020) running in sync and matching each other to find faults.
my job got me "thinking outside of the box" as they say to troubleshoot problems at a higher level that perhaps wasn't tried by others.

My furnace *21 years old now, came with a user manual and a diagram showing the sensors and control board. I learned where the various sensors are on my furnace because I don't want to be BSed by furnace tech repair guys. I ask them in depth questions, and they better be telling me the truth. Of course, I did get caught once when the original ignitor failed. After the emergency callout replace it, I ordered a spare one from my furnace depot in the US. 
I even rewired the control board C/R/W/B/G terminals to accept two digital thermostats..one for heating and
the other for strictly cooling as each one is in a different level of my house.



> Me too but only a bit. *I started buying cast iron burners for my BBQ from CT* and they have lasted much longer than those stainless ones.


I bought one cast burner for my BBQ ffrom CT as well. I don't BBQ any more due to health issues, but the guy that picked it up was happy to see the cast iron burner than those 1-2 season thing stainless steel ones that constantly burn through and then burn your meat with a yellow flame. However, it seems that these cast iron burners are in
short supply at CT..they prefer to sell the SS types..more repeat business for them. 




> I agree people should not monkey around with the burner orifices (other than to clean them) or adjust gas valve pressures. They are designed for specific operating pressures.


Correct! Besides I believe it is illegal to touch the gas valve without having gas certification...otherwise..BOOM! if you get it wrong..and try explaining that to your insurance company when they start asking questions. At the trailer, the propane fridge would sometimes not cool on propane, so I would carefully unscrew the propane orfice for the heater tube (trailer fridges do not have compressors for obvious reasons, but have a capillary action "heater tube' fired by propane to cause the ammonia in the fridge's cooling coils to circulate, (expansion) to absorb any heat from inside the fridge. it's a novel approach to refrigeration..slow action, but it works given enough time.



> To me though, if a plugged orifice reduces gas flow, then it should run in a lean mode - excess oxygen and burn blue


Well think about it Brian, let's say you have a certain pressure at the gas pipe that goes into the gas valve which usually has an atmospheric sensing diaphragm for proper flow of the gas into the manifold that distributes the gas to 3 or more burners., restrict the gas flow at the gas valve orfice and you have LESS gas coming out into the manifold.

How to test a gas valve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMBbofusX78



> - just less heat. With a slowing ID fan or restricted air flow to the furnace, that would allow a rich condition (excess gas and not enough oxygen) and result in incomplete combustion thus CO in the exhaust - but no CO in the house air which could be as a result of a crack in the heat exchanger. The problem with this is not a health risk but the *furnace is running out of spec and expelling CO into the atmosphere. Not good but not going to kill you either.*


Don't tell that to the furnace techs! any amount of CO coming out through the exhaust stack, means they will condemn the furnace. 



> The service techs don't touch the ID fans unless they replace them. You're right - a little lube and they will run forever (well a long time anyway). One Tech told a neighbor that those fans should not be oiled but strangely,* clearly stamped on the motor was "Oil Yearly"*. Planned failures that are expensive to repair. I think one poster here said he was charged $700 to replace it with 2 service visits.


Carve laughs..yes, I guess I should have listened to the furnace techs?...and not oil my ID motor which the manual says, "oil bearings yearly with suitable lubricating oil on the sleeve bearings."
Mine keeps going and going like the Energizer Bunny. Thought about getting a spare ID motor but...it's cheaper to remove the 3 nuts holding it to the draft plate and a couple of drops of oil on the front sleeve bearing which has the fan attached to it, put it back in and tighten the 3 nuts and a squirt of oil at the accessible rear sleeve bearing.
What?* I won't bend over to the tech service guys for the $700 replacement?* yes, two drops of oil at each end is cheaper than changing them out, because the draft housing has to be taken apart on mine, gasket replaced, and the fan reattached to the shaft of the motor, then the whole induced draft housing reassembled...at least 1-2 hrs of labour. ..hmmm...better to just oil the two bearings and be done with it for another season.

here is my ID motor with induced draft metal inclosure and special high heat square gasket (not made of asbestos though, but some other material).
http://keithspecialty.com/k/Nordyne-903111.htm



> The other issue could be gas quality or changing "heat value". Sometimes gas plant maintenance or operational upsets affects gas components. Years ago at a gas plant west of Calgary, they started to strip the rich components out of the natural gas and everyone's gas usage jumped because there was less 'heat' in the gas and furnaces ran longer. Then the regulators stepped in and told them to stop doing that. You will notice on your gas bill (maybe) a heat value to convert metered volume into BTU's or GJ's. That gets adjusted occasionally because of diddling with natural gas components. That has to change the way the furnace burns fuel too.


Don't know anything about nat gas BTU quality. Endbridge (my supplier) doesn't appear to monkey around with the gas they supply me. My burners come on blue and burn with a vengeance until the heat anticipater (thermal switch inside the the heat exchanger), senses the correct temp is reached, and tells the control board to start up the furnace circulating fan.

BTW..I had to repair my White-Rogers control board a few years back. The furnace would cycle but the fan never came on. 
So I trouble shoot it to the circuit board with a DVM and took the control board off and looked at the printed circuit side.. (after marking all the plug in wires),
and what do I find?...the* copper circuit track to the fan relay on the board had OPENED UP!* Hmmm.. BAD DESIGN..White Rogers OR original split phase 1/2 HP fan motor drawing to much current? melting the copper track? 

OK now, got the control board in my hand..what to do?.. option A) buy another control board for about $325 at the time..or option B) repair the open PC track by soldering a piece of copper wire along the open circuit track with proper electronic solder. chose option B...hasn't failed since. ..just like oiling the bearings on the ID motor.

The furnace repair techs must just hate me..can't sell me a new furnace.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

http://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/
This what I believe as well. 

A SMALL CRACK WON'T PRODUCE ENOUGH CARBON MONOXIDE that it is dangerous to your health. 
*It takes a LOT of carbon monoxide in the enclosed air in the house to even give you a headache.* 

Just put one CO sensor above a heating duct in your house to detect any CO. I believe they can detect down to 6 parts per million) to sound the alarm. That is all you need.

Minor cracks are minor cracks due to years of heating/cooling..but the furnace techs will scare the beejeezus out of you and your family...."we found a crack in your furnace..we need to replace it or that CO can do serious harm to you and your family and perhaps even kill you and your family while you sleep"..bunk!

Now a couple years ago, there was a family or two in the Toronto area during the ice storm/long duration power outage that brought in portable gasoline generators into the house and BBQ and yes, some of them got bad CO poisoning because they were doing something illegal, not using the gasoline generator or the BBQ the way they were intended..outside use only.

It would be like running a hose from the tailpipe into a closed up car (motor idling) with you sitting in it in closed up garage..once all the oxygen is used up..eventually.....death by CO.....but that is intentional of course!


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Considering how ubiquitous combustion furnaces and hot water tanks are in Canada, there's almost no deaths from CO poisoning attributed to them. Deaths from CO are rare as it is, but 99% are caused by BBQing inside, or having a generator inside, or starting your car in the attached garage (even with a garage door open, the CO can reach dangerous amounts). Another cause might be due to damage to the direct vent piping which could cause combustion products to leak inside your home. Most furnaces will have pressure sensors that will shut down the unit if a blockage is detected in the intake/discharge vents.

CO detectors are cheap. Buy a pair of them for $60 and install them throughout the house. CO moves fast enough that you would have pretty homogenous readings throughout the house (ie it wouldn't be 4ppm in one room and 400ppm in the basement). Remember to replace them, they're only good for 8-10 yrs.

That being said, we almost lost a lot of my wife's family to CO. At christmas. Her aunt and uncle (and 3 cousins) were retiring for the night on xmas eve, and her uncle felt something wasn't quite right, but couldn't put a finger on it. As everyone went to bed, he walked around the house, making sure windows were closed etc (in Vancouver). As he went in to the furnace room, he noticed the CO detector was dead from batteries. He spent some time scrounging some fresh batteries and put them in. All of sudden, the alarm went off. They called 911, fire department took a look. I think it was their hot water tank, but not sure. If he hadn't done the walk around, the entire family would have perished on Christmas eve.
Sometimes when we're travelling to stay at friends places, I bring a portable CO/smoke alarm with us and put it in our room. How do you know they have CO detectors or they're diligent about changing batteries in smoke detectors? It's cheap piece of mind.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

nobleea said:


> Considering how ubiquitous combustion furnaces and hot water tanks are in Canada, there's almost no deaths from CO poisoning attributed to them. Deaths from CO are rare as it is, but 99% are caused by BBQing inside, or having a generator inside, or starting your car in the attached garage (even with a garage door open, the CO can reach dangerous amounts). *Another cause might be due to damage to the direct vent piping which could cause combustion products to leak inside your home*. Most furnaces will have pressure sensors that will shut down the unit if a blockage is detected in the intake/discharge vents.


this happened in a multi unit residential in Ottawa last winter, the exhaust pipes to the outside of a gas boiler system got blocked somehow. The residents in the building were complaining of headaches and called someone (firemen?) who entered the basement and found very high levels of CO. They shut down the boiler and heaters and RED TAGGED the entire boiler complex and moved the residents out of the building until repairs where completed. No one died, but many were complaining of headaches..the first sign of CO poisoning that clears once you get out in fresh air. I believe that they mentioned blockage due to heavy snow accumulation against the side of the multiunit that prevented proper exhaust of the boiler into the outside air. 



> CO detectors are cheap. Buy a pair of them for $60 and install them throughout the house. CO moves fast enough that you would have pretty homogenous readings throughout the house (ie it wouldn't be 4ppm in one room and 400ppm in the basement). Remember to replace them, they're only good for 8-10 yrs.


The ones I bought at CTC are good for 10 years and use AA batteries ( 3 batteries I think)/ I taped paper tags on both of mine reminding me to test the unit each year for battery strength and the CO monitor will beep a reminder when the batteries get too low. It is now law in Ontario to have at least one CO monitor and a smoke detector and to ensure that the batteries are changed yearly or at least tested periodically to make sure they are working. 

I have heard in the news of fires in houses, where the smoke detectors batteries had expired and nobody changed the battery,
but instead took out the expired battery to stop the constant beeping and then forgot about the battery..just inviting trouble or a tragic event to occur. 

In Ottawa, the fire marshall sometimes conducts an unannounced smoke detector blitz and comes into your home to ensure that the smoke detectors are working. If he finds one not working,the fire marshall can issue you a citation or fine. 



> That being said, we almost lost a lot of my wife's family to CO. At christmas. Her aunt and uncle (and 3 cousins) were retiring for the night on xmas eve, and her uncle felt something wasn't quite right, but couldn't put a finger on it. As everyone went to bed, he walked around the house, making sure windows were closed etc (in Vancouver). As he went in to the furnace room, *he noticed the CO detector was dead from batteries.*


Extremely lucky he found some batteries, but the CO detector would have been beeping for a battery change long before the batteries finally died. The preventative maintenance is to press the test button and wait for the RED alarm test light to flash twice with a shrill "beep-beep-beep". 

That should signify the batteries have sufficient charge left in them. On my GARMIN CO detectors, there is a red alarm "test button" and there is a green "everything
is ok" LED that flashes for a split second about every 60 seconds. I have mine just above a floor vent, so if any CO gets into the air plenums it will go off with a shrill steady red light and on it's LCD display indicator, how much CO in PPM it has detected. 

These are very sensitive units. I believe they detect something like 6 parts of CO per million. Gives you lots of time to get out, or even shut down the furnace operation
and call an emergency furnace tech.....*but of course, you have to test these things regularly, just like a smoke detector.* Or even open a window to let fresh air
in will help. 



> He spent some time scrounging some fresh batteries and put them in. All of sudden, the alarm went off. They called 911, fire department took a look. I think it was their hot water tank, but not sure. If he hadn't *done the walk around, the entire family would have perished on Christmas eve.*


Perish the thought! Thankfully fate gave them a lucky break that night! 



> Sometimes when we're travelling to stay at friends places, I bring a portable CO/smoke alarm with us and put it in our room. How do you know they have CO detectors or they're diligent about changing batteries in smoke detectors? It's cheap piece of mind.


Good plan, you can never be 'too safe' when it comes to fossil fuel combustion devices. Batteries do die eventually, but not everyone has a plan to change them before they die or to test these safety devices..and tragedies (deaths) can result.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for the link to the Myths. I feel much better now after reading that.

1) For years I wondered about the pressure from the air fan pressurizing the area around the heat exchanger thus blowing air through any cracks that there could be (if any) in the heat exchanger into the exhaust stream and NOT allowing combustion gas into the house air. I also wondered about a venture effect which could draw combustion gas into the house air but I think the pressurized heat exchanger would push air out rather than suck it from the exhaust. 
2) A few years ago I was in a friends basement and notice that the vent from the hot water tank had fallen off the chimney and was venting into the house - probably going on for a while. They had CO detectors but no alarms. So as pointed out, similar to a stove, combustion of gas doesn't mean there is CO in the exhaust gas. So the hot water tank was burning properly with complete combustion. Same thing with a stove. I also have a friend who for many years with the same logic, discharges his gas dryer into his basement with no problems.
2) The main problem with CO hitting the news is BBQ's, generators in houses, and idling vehicles in the garage.
3) A great idea to travel with your own CO monitor. You can't be too careful.
4) I also got a headache once during a weather 'inversion' and immediately suspected the venting of the furnace. That was the problem. Weather changed and all good. So I believe my internal CO monitor detector and it doesn't need batteries either! But I do have 2 CO & smoke detectors in the house and I test them too.
5) The tech that found CO in the discharge did look and look and look for cracks in the heat exchanger so he could condemn the furnace but couldn't find any to his disappointment. But that pointed to the ID fan and all good after that change. And like Carverman said - all that takes is a few drops of oil as I found too. 

ps - Carverman - my brother in Ottawa was at Nortel for years, then Cienna, and now is at Alcatel. He is still working because of lack of a Nortel pension.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Thanks for the link to the Myths. I feel much better now after reading that.
> 1) For years I wondered about the pressure from the air fan pressurizing the area around the heat exchanger thus blowing air through any cracks that there could be (if any) in the heat exchanger into the exhaust stream and NOT allowing combustion gas into the house air. I also wondered about a venture effect which could draw combustion gas into the house air but I think the pressurized heat exchanger would push air out rather than suck it from the exhaust.


Agreed, that is why it is described as a Heat exchanger. The hot combusted gases are sucked out of the primary combustion chamber by the ID venting motor. The plenum air that the blower fan circulates around the combustion chamber is room air. Different pressure differentials between the two, and most mid to high efficiency have a pressure (differential0 switch sensor that monitors that there is a difference with the ID venting motor. otherwise it shuts down the furnace if the ID fan motor fails..so really nothing to worry about if the ID fan motor is operational and the burners draw in fresh oxgenated air from the outside fresh air vent. Blue flame..thumbs up!..tiny minute cracks are really no problem.



> 2) A few years ago I was in a friends basement and notice that the vent from the hot water tank had fallen off the chimney and was venting into the house - probably going on for a while.


That would be the conventional direct vented tank exhaust that is "Y" connected to my chimney stack. The heater vent has an open 1-2 inch air space for atmospheric pressure to suck in basement room air and let the convection flow combusted gases go out a conventional chimney vent..scary?.......not really that's how these things are supposed to work. today they install mostly the power vented models, because very few new furnaces have a vented chimney liner. The furnace vents through a 2inch
abs plastic tube to the outside wall. These 95% efficiency units are condensing type furnaces.



> They had CO detectors but no alarms. So as pointed out, similar to a stove, combustion of gas doesn't mean there is CO in the exhaust gas. So the hot water tank was burning properly with complete combustion. Same thing with a stove. I also have a friend who for many years with the same logic, discharges his gas dryer into his basement with no problems.



Exactly. Complete combustion and an unblocked opening for the exhaust gases is what most medium gas usage appliances need. Years ago, those conventional (no ID venter) furnaces worked the same way as the air draft HWT. As long as the burned gases have an escape route..no problem.



> 2) The main problem with CO hitting the news is BBQ's, generators in houses, and idling vehicles in the garage.


Sometimes people just don't think of the consequences, like the family in Toronto during the ice storm a couple years ago, that brought in a propane bbq as a heating device..duh!~
Its a wonder nobody died there, but they all got affected by CO poisoning. Once the inside oxygen gets used up by the BBQ, there is incomplete combustion...watch out!


> 4) I also got a headache once during a weather 'inversion' and immediately suspected the venting of the furnace. That was the problem. Weather changed and all good. So I believe my internal CO monitor detector and it doesn't need batteries either! But I do have 2 CO & smoke detectors in the house and I test them too.


Testing them doesn't take that long. I have paper stickers on each of my CO monitors with the date tested and the next date. In the coldest part of the winter when the furnace is running a lot, a test every 4-6 weeks is reassurance that the batteries are in good shape.

BTW, I won't buy any of these Energizer Advanced Lithium AA batteries anymore I paid a higher price for these to run my fireplace gas valve and the furnace thermostats
longer than conventional akalines..but they seem thatg they don't last much longer than the regular akalines, and they cost twice the price. Must be made in China, I guess.



> 5) The tech that found CO in the discharge did look and look and look for cracks in the heat exchanger so he could condemn the furnace but couldn't find any to his disappointment. But that pointed to the ID fan and all good after that change. And like Carverman said - all that takes is a few drops of oil as I found too.





> ps - Carverman - my brother in Ottawa was at Nortel for years, then Cienna, and now is at Alcatel. He is still working because of lack of a Nortel pension.


That is so sad. Many that were caught their during the bankruptcy were in the same boat. I was lucky and got retired early in mid 2002 after 23 years of service. They paid
me 80% salary until my pension date in Nov 2002 and a special leave retirement allowance. It was good while it lasted but in January 2009, those special leave checks stopped coming
in and I lost quite a bit of post retirement pension..now they owe me $82K, (no pensioner medical or dental either) and although I filed a claim against the assets, it may take a
few years..if I make it that long, to get some kind of settlement..10 to 40% on what they owe me. My regular pension was also cut 30% because of underfunding of the DB plan.
I'm surving so far, but the DB pension is in the process of windup for the last 3 years.


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## AirPro (Mar 31, 2014)

carverman said:


> You can retrofit ANY GAS FURNACE WITH THE ECM EVERGREEN commutated DC motor. 4 speeds, and you can select which speeds for heating and which for cooling. I bought one online about 3 years ago, and it is claimed to save 25% on electricity.
> This is a smart motor with the speed selection circuit built into the motor to sense ramp-up speed and a the ramp down speed.
> 
> Very reliable. I had a independent HVAC tech come to install it and remove the old split phase 1/2 HP original equipped motor. It needed a couple connections to the furnace circuit board, so I didn't want to take a chance myself and hook up to the wrong terminals on the board.
> ...


I was going to bring up the retrofit possibility but didn't know how much it was likely to cost but that option looks really quite reasonable if you don't get gouged on installation.

The quoted savings are potentially real but you need to be aware that they only come at reduced operating speeds. At full speed there is not a huge difference between an ECM and traditional PSC motor.

The numbers that you see thrown around by the furnace manufacturers rely on making a comparison with long periods of low speed recirculation. If you don't normally use fan only to recirculate air don't expect to see much savings.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AirPro said:


> I was going to bring up the retrofit possibility but didn't know how much it was likely to cost but that option looks really quite reasonable if you don't get gouged on installation.
> 
> The quoted savings are potentially real but you need to be aware that they only come at reduced operating speeds. At full speed there is not a huge difference between an ECM and traditional PSC motor.
> 
> ...


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

Hot water tanks like others have said, have a limited life due to hard water. About 10 years is a good lifespan for one of those.

Furnaces are expensive, and I don't know of a good reason why'd you'd replace a working one. I still have the original one in my 1959 house.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I change the anode in my hot water tank about every 3-4 years and get extended life from them. Anodes are available at Rona, HD or other plumbing shop for $20-$30. I have an impact wrench and the appropriate socket so that makes the change pretty easy. Water softeners are apparently hard on our Calgary hot water tanks too in spite of the advertisements saying they help appliances last longer. That might be true for a kettle, but not for the hot water tank.

The 'good reason' to change the furnaces are because you let some service guy in for a 'free' inspection and he says "cracked heat exchanger" with no proof. One neighbor had theirs changed after one of these visits. They asked to see the crack in the exchanger, but in order to see the purported crack, the furnace would of course need to be cut apart and that usually occurs on the driveway so too late to say 'no crack - put it back'. As others have pointed out - it's buyer beware. If gas was $15 per GJ then the economics would work for a more efficient furnace, but at $2.50 for a 4-6 month heating season not so much. I have my furnace from 1987 and it works just fine.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I change the anode in my hot water tank about every 3-4 years and get extended life from them. Anodes are available at Rona, HD or other plumbing shop for $20-$30. I have an impact wrench and the appropriate socket so that makes the change pretty easy. Water softeners are apparently hard on our Calgary hot water tanks too in spite of the advertisements saying they help appliances last longer. That might be true for a kettle, but not for the hot water tank.


Water softners (if in use) create salt ions in the water (a salt ion is exchanged for a calcium ion which gives the water a soft feel. The salt ion goes on to attack any metal surface that is not treated and eventually corrodes the tank. So it depends on where the water is sourced from..if from city supplies that in turn get their untreated water from a river or lake, generally the water is soft enough not to have to invest in a water softner. But if it comes from a acquafer underground or a well (city or private), it will have some hard minerals in it.
I used to live outside the city of Ottawa on a well. Had to have a water softner (and iron filter) which really cut down on the life of the tanks 6 years or less, even with the sacrificial anode changed.




> The 'good reason' to change the furnaces are because *you let some service guy in for a 'free' inspection and he says "cracked heat exchanger" with no proof*.
> 
> One neighbor had theirs changed after one of these visits. They asked to see the crack in the exchanger, but in order to see the purported crack, the furnace would of course need to be cut apart and that usually occurs on the driveway so too late to say 'no crack - put it back'. As others have pointed out - it's buyer beware.
> 
> If gas was $15 per GJ then the economics would work for a more efficient furnace, but at $2.50 for a 4-6 month heating season not so much. I have my furnace from 1987 and it works just fine.


These stories are not urban legends, but seem to happen quite frequently to the homeowners in this very competive field, where homeowners 'trust their free inspection service guys. 
A second opinion is ALWAYS a good idea. It is also a good idea to find a qualified HVAC tech that is not part of the bigger vendors ( such as an independent contractor or service man) to give you an honest answer.

My 85% efficient furnace was installed in 1994, two years before I bought my place. I found an independent qualified service guy, that also installed my ECM (commutated blower motor) for me, and he gave me some good advice:

1) never fall for the free inspection fliers or these "pushy salespeople" that come to your door asking to "upgrade your furnace/HWT'
If you fall for this scam it will cost you thousands (more like $10,000 plus for long duration 15 year contracts that you won't be able to get of.

2. Never ask for somebody to come in to do a combustion efficiency test on a furnace older than 10 years...they can condemn the furnace if it does not meet THEIR Carbon monoxide specs, and you will be forced to buy a new furnace from them, even if they are an HVAC contractor. After all, that is how they make their money from sales
of new HVAC equipment.

If the furnace burners have a nice blue flame..leave it alone..even if the furnace is 21 years old like mine.

a true life story of someone who was SCAMMED!



> misrepresention
> Two salesmen came to my door and asked to inspect my furnace. Thinking they were from the government, I let them in. They convinced me that I needed a new furnace at a cost of $55 a month for 5 years. Since my furnace was 25 years, old, I signed the contract. Only a few months ago, d*id I learn that the contract I signed was a 'rent to own' and the $55 a month was for 180 months (15 years)*.
> t*his means I'm paying over $10,000 for a furnace that's probably worth about $3,0000. What a scam!* They even pointed to the 5 year term on the contract when I was signing, but didn't point to the 180 month part.
> 
> ...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and someone who had the smarts not to be scammed! 



> When I said that I wasn't interested, the second more experienced one tried to sound comforting and started again by re-introducing who they were and what the purpose of their visit was. *They were apparently representing the Ontario Government and going door to door to make sure the equipment we have is environmentally friendly (blah blah blah blah).*
> 
> Sitting and still focused on my weeds, the young man insisted that he needed to check the A/C and whether or not it was on the left or right side of the house. I again told him "I'm not interested" and stated the the A/C unit was in the back and no one was going to check it. Trying to push a third time, I cut him off. *I stated that I like old technology that works and why replace something that's not broken? And also I mentioned that when I said no I meant NO!*
> 
> ...


More on these scams at this website:
http://www.complaintboard.com/ontario-energy-group-l1519.html


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Calgary water does come from either of 2 rivers . The water is very hard and benefits from a water softener.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Calgary water does come from either of 2 rivers . The water is very hard and benefits from a water softener.


So you would need to change your sacrificial anode more often..once every year or two. Once the aluminium or magnesium anode is used up, 
the tank doesn't have any protection. Corrosion will start rapidly after that. Cathodic protection in this case is a necessity..or start replacing tanks more often than under ordinary circumstances.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

In prior years, I have taken them out yearly to check and there is still plenty left. I have found 3-5 years is best. I have changed a few for friends after 10 years and the anode is complete gone. Also, with water softeners, apparently aluminum is the preferred anode. One difference is the magnesium ones have a little 'nubby' on the top of the nut and the aluminum ones don't have this little bump on the nut.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Last week and even before that, my 21 year old Nordyne furnace was going into "Lockout" after attempting 3 heating cycles. It started around the 13th, when my lower stairlift broke down, probably even before that. I had to turn the power switch on the wall, to get it to start..and it would run for one cycle or two (maybe three), then shut down. 
Good thing that this November, it has been reasonably warm out here in Ottawa and I have a gas fireplace upstairs to supplement the heat.

Called in one of those freelance HVAC guys from Kijji that advertised trouble shooting for $80 per service call. He came over and started to remove the upper burner panel on the furnace and the furnace started to run again into another heating cycle. He made a comment that he had never seen that before!

After about an hour of poking around and cleaning the flame sensor, he touched a wiring harness connector between the burners/sensors/gas valves and this 12 pin connector that goes down to the integrated control circuit board and the furnace stopped first, then started to run again.

He figured it had something to do with the control board, told me to order another circuit board and then put everything back together, charged me $80 cash..would not give me a service call bill and told me it would be better to order the board on my own, since he had an "Enercare" jacket on, but when I asked him if he worked for Enercare, he mumbled something about somebody just gave him the jacket....Ya sure!

I ordered a new control board same day from the US supplier, (it still hasn't come in yet from the 13th, but as of the 22nd, it had cleared Canada Post/Canada Customs sorting facility. Maybe I will get it today, tomorrow, or next week. In the meantime, I took that connector apart, cleaned it with varsol and blew it out with compressed air, then applied a contact spray cleaner to it. Plugged it together and the furnace has been working with no hiccups since the 21st,
the longest it has worked since the symptom started.

I doubt now that it was the control board in the first place..looks like some dirt/sanding dust or corrosion got into that connector.

One of the pins is the flame detector probe and it supplies only about 200 MICRO-AMPS..doesn't take much corrosion to shut down the furnace there, as no continuity at that pin will inform the control board to shut down the furnace.."no flame detected during ignition sequence" .


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Sounds like a lose connection to me too. Now you have a spare board that you will never need it - or at least you can rule out that part breaking LOL!

I've heard that cleaning the flame sensor will make it work for a short time, but it is best to get a new one if it is 10+ years old. One service guy told me to use an older paper $5 bill - not the plastic ones and NOT to use sandpaper on the sensor. Something about scratching it which would reduce the longevity. Or perhaps an eraser or lightly use steel wool.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Sounds like a lose connection to me too. Now you have a spare board that you will never need it - or at least you can rule out that part breaking LOL!
> 
> At this point in time, I would have to say that the old circuit board has proven to still be good.
> 
> ...


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

I see you are prepared to bend over forward for your US purchase - for shipping AND exchange into Canadian Peso's. And they call this free trade! Not much free about it.
No wonder smuggling is so popular for those folks living close to the border. I get stuff from China cheaper than from the US. Aliexpress generally has free shipping - but unfortunately you can't buy everything from there even though it is probably made there. 

I got some spare furnace parts from Kijiji the other day. All for $150! I got a induced draft fan, gas valve, and main fan and controls. The furnace was removed after the homeowner got scared into buying a new furnace by the repair guy - you know the routine - this is an old furnace and the heat exchanger could crack any time now. That only cost him $5000. 
Good for you for finding the loose wires in the connector. Think of the money you saved. $5000 - $269.46 and you can still fix this your furnace yourself and you don't need a yearly $150 inspection.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> I see you are prepared to bend over forward for your US purchase - for shipping AND exchange into Canadian Peso's. And they call this free trade! Not much free about it.


Yes, no choice here, since it's a US made furnace and the local furnace guys charge an arm and a leg for the board in any case. 
it finally was delivered by Canada Post this morning. had to pay an extra $28 for HST and $9.95 for customs clearance fee..total of $307 CAD! 

The USD price of the board ws $162, plus $34 for expedited shipping. There is a mod on this upgraded board for my GR4-96C furnace. A blue wire going to the 6 pin Molex plug that supplies 115VAC for the ignitor and the inducer motor.
Whrn I go to install it someday (if I haven't sold the house at that point), I have to cut off the original blue wire going to pin 4 and move it to pin 1. I don't have that molex pin
release push tool. To get around that, they supplied a short blue jumper wire and a marrette to reconnect the blue wire to the ignitor once the molex pin
is inserted in pin 1 as a workaround. 



> No wonder smuggling is so popular for those folks living close to the border. I get stuff from China cheaper than from the US. Aliexpress generally has free shipping - but unfortunately you can't buy everything from there even though it is *probably made there*.


the board is made in China, but it is a Nordyne part number, so like many brand name items, you cannot by these directly, so you have to pay the price they ask and the ridiculous
shipping charges these days. 



> I got some spare furnace parts from Kijiji the other day. All for $150! I got a induced draft fan, gas valve, and main fan and controls. The furnace was removed after the homeowner *got scared into buying a new furnace by the repair guy - you know the routine - this is an old furnace and the heat exchanger could crack any time now*. That only cost him $5000.
> 
> Good for you for finding the loose wires in the connector. Think of the money you saved. $5000 - $269.46 and you can still fix this your furnace yourself and you don't need a yearly $150 inspection.


 I don't pay those ridiculous monthly maintenance fees from Enercare. These are a ripooff even at $12.99 because they will always suggest you go the next step for your furnace protection plan and they don't do anything to earn that fee until you have a furnace breakdown, then they come in and give you an excuse, that you would be farther off with a new furnace.
That $12.99 a month allows them to keep their foot in the door, so you have to use them, instead of finding a better price from another HVAC outfit.


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## livewell (Dec 1, 2013)

Since I had a problem a few years ago with a dirty flame sensor I clean my flame sensor annually with a toothbrush. The gap in the panel is big enough that I can do this without having to remove the sensor (Though it really is only two bolts to remove so not that difficult.

I am getting nervous that reading this thread is going to jinx my furnace needing a costly repair in coldest January


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## SN1 (Nov 27, 2015)

I am new to the forum and just saw this thread today. One thing to consider from a risk management perspective is whether you will be covered by your insurer if there is water damage from an old hot water tank that fails. Our hot water tank is 15 years old, two years ago our insurer asked us if it had ever been replaced, we said no. We were warned that if we did not replace it that an exclusion would be put on our policy the following year. I had the water tank inspected but that did not matter, the exclusion was added. They told me they are receiving too many claims from old tanks failing. So, If my tank fails I am not covered for any resulting water damage. I stuck with the insurer because their rates are competitive. Also, the tank has a drain pan and a floor drain immediately under it. I inspect the water lines and test the release valve regularly. I am taking the risk. I would be interested to hear from any insurance folks on the forum to see if this type of exclusion is becoming common on policies. 

Also, my furnace is 15 years old - our local service company recommend I keep both it and the hot water tank as long as possible as they are both reliable builds. The circuit board went on my furnace two years ago and I dropped in a replacement for $300 without any trouble.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

SN1 - you should replace the anode in the hot water tank. Look for a nut on the top. It unscrews and you slide in a new one. You can get them at Home Depot or Rona.
It will help it last even longer.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

SN1 said:


> I am new to the forum and just saw this thread today. One thing to consider from a risk management perspective is whether you will be covered by your insurer if there is water damage from an old hot water tank that fails. Our hot water tank is 15 years old, two years ago our insurer asked us if it had ever been replaced, we said no. We were warned that if we did not replace it that an exclusion would be put on our policy the following year. I had the water tank inspected but that did not matter, the exclusion was added. They told me they are receiving too many claims from old tanks failing. So, If my tank fails I am not covered for any resulting water damage. I stuck with the insurer because their rates are competitive. Also, the tank has a drain pan and a floor drain immediately under it. I inspect the water lines and test the release valve regularly. *I am taking the risk. * I would be interested to hear from any insurance folks on the forum to see if this type of exclusion is becoming common on policies.
> 
> It depends on the insurer and the age of the water tank. My tank *is a GE "smart tank" that I bought from H-D. I self installed it in Sept of 2000, when Enbridge was getting out of the tank rental business and sent me a notice, that they would not charge any rental on their tank for a limited time, as long as I notified them that I would not be continuing to rent the tank from whomever took over my rental, the tank was removed at my expense, and put at the front of the garage door, so they could pick it up.
> 
> ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

SN1 said:


> I am new to the forum and just saw this thread today. One thing to consider from a risk management perspective, is whether you will be covered by your insurer if there is water damage from an old hot water tank that fails.


I don't see why not. Most tanks have a 12 year prorated warranty. Usually they will give tell-tale signs of a corrosion leak in the bottom of the tank, LONG BEFORE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A SERIOUS LEAK.

If you act quickly and see any water in the drip pan, or even on the basement floor making it's way to the floor drain, You can bypass the tank and have a service man replace the tank within a few hours. If you act quickly in that case, there will be no water damage to report a claim. 

If you install one of these electronic flood protectors, it will shut off the cold water to the tank, and the most you will lose to the floor drain is about 40 US gallons of hot water...not exactly a flood in the sense of the word. 

or one of these...
http://reliancedetection.com/products/water-alarms-leak-detection/water-heater-leak-alarm-shut-off/
here is another one..
http://www.amazon.com/Floodstop-Auto-Shutoff-FS3-4NPT-v4/dp/B00EA426X6



> two years ago our insurer asked us if it had ever been replaced, we said no.





> We were warned that if we did not replace it* that an exclusion would be put on our policy the following year.* I had the water tank inspected but that did not matter, the exclusion was added. They told me they are receiving too many claims from old tanks failing. So, If my tank fails I am not covered for any resulting water damage. *I stuck with the insurer because their rates are competitive*. Also, the tank has a drain pan and a floor drain immediately under it. I inspect the water lines and test the release valve regularly. I am taking the risk. I would be interested to hear from any insurance folks on the forum to see if this type of exclusion is becoming common on policies.



You mention that you assume the risk because you like the rates from your current insurer. How long are you planning to accept the risk? 1 year? 2 years, 3 yrs or up to 5 years? 
I'm in the same situation with a 15yr old tank with no signs of seepage.

My insurer's policy states:

"caused by water .... UNLESS THE LOSS OR Damage resulted from:
b) the sudden and accidental escape OF water or steam from a DOMESTIC Water Container , which is located inside your building.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

A drain pan under the hot water tank plug a $20 water alarm should do the trick to alert you if and when it starts to leak and contain the water till you can shut the supply off.
They do fail without warning - water on the floor is the first and only sign you get. It's usually a pin hole leak, not a catastrophic failure so water leakage is quite slow. 
When we leave the house for more than a couple of days, we shut the main valve off so if a pipe does burst, we don't come home to a mess.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> A drain pan under the hot water tank plug a $20 water alarm should do the trick to alert you if and when it starts to leak and contain the water till you can shut the supply off.
> They do fail without warning - water on the floor is the first and only sign you get. It's usually a pin hole leak, not a catastrophic failure so water leakage is quite slow.
> When we leave the house for more than a couple of days, *we shut the main valve off so if a pipe does burst, we don't come home to a mess.*



You should also turn down the thermostat on the HWT. With no water pressure on the tank and the thermostat set to VACation on the tank's gas valve, there should be no
catastrophic flooding..but a slow leak that would be noticeable, once you come back home.

Suggestion:
1. Shut off the cold water line tap to the tank.
2. Shut off the hot water line tap at the tank.
Now the tank is isolated. It can't suck air from any water line to continue leaking.

3. Turn down the gas tank thermostat to Vacation, which will keep the water in the tank barely warm to avoid any condensation on the outside of the metal tank. 

Brian; water pipes generally don't burst unless you have a bad solder joint, installed by a DIY owner..or the heat goes off in the dead of winter (-20C) for a prolonged period of time, if the
furnace stops working (like mine did this month :biggrin). You can set up a portable heater in the basement and another one upstairs to keep the temperature in the house above freezing
which will stop any cold water pipes from freezing..which is NOT covered by you household insurance.

BTW, my next door neighbour had *two floods in her basement over the last 10 years due to the outside tap freezing up.* Lots of water from the frozen pipe inside the wall.
Why? In the first case, it was either a cold draft that froze the outside tap (12 inches into the wall) that shuts off the water on the other side of the outside wall, 
or the outside hose was still attached and the water inside the outside tap was not drained. 

The frozen water inside the tap froze back to inside the interior wall. 

No inside shutoff valves were provided by the cheapskate builder, when these places were built 44 years ago. Mine didn't have these addigtional shutoff valves for the front tap nor
the backyard tap, relying on just those 12 inch taps.

I installed these extra shutoff taps myself after hearing about her grief with the the flooded basement. 

Each November, I close the outside taps from these additional shutoff valves (inside the warm part of the house), for extra protection, and drain the water outside of the outside tap, leaving the outside tap open for the winter with the hose disconnected.


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## Brian K (Jan 29, 2011)

Yes - good ideas to minimize water damage. It is a good idea to shut off the main water supply when you leave for an extended period of time. I've heard of a few water lines in fridges (that have water and ice dispensing) that break. They use 1/4 plastic lines internally and they can fail. Also, other failures can occur on washer hoses, and plastic toilet fill lines. Now they make those hoses with a stainless braid to help prevent a failure. They still recommend that these be changed every 10 years of so. I'm fortunate to have copper lines in the house and no problems with bad joints or split pipes.

Our neighbors have Poly B and a few of them are now starting to have failures as evidenced by the names on the repair trucks outside for a few days (Replace Poly B water lines). Our houses are about 30 years old. Apparently not all Poly B piping systems are bad, but how do you know if yours is good or bad? I think insurance rules specify that if you are away for more than a few days, you have someone come around to check on the house. We shut the water off just in case. 

I too had the outside taps freeze up and replaced them with the frostless type and added an internal shutoff valve too. All was fine until I finished the basement and this didn't allow warmish basement air to keep the pipes going through the outside wall from freezing. All good now. Changes make changes.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Brian K said:


> Yes - good ideas to minimize water damage. It is a good idea to shut off the main water supply when you leave for an extended period of time. I've heard of a few water lines in fridges (that have water and ice dispensing) that break. They use 1/4 plastic lines internally and they can fail. Also, other failures can occur on washer hoses, and plastic toilet fill lines. Now *they make those hoses with a stainless braid to help prevent a failure.* They still recommend that these be changed every 10 years of so. I'm fortunate to have copper lines in the house and no problems with bad joints or split pipes.


Funny you should mention that. My stainless steel braided hose that is connected to the toilet tank wall shutoff valve..split one night. It was 10 years or so since it was installed. Small stream (more than a trickle) of water behind the toilet..fortunately I was able to shut off the flow of water to the tank until morning when I went to CTC and purchased a new type of SS hose with a flood preventor valve built into the hose. 

It's called a Watts FloodSafe. It will reduce the water through the split hose to a tiny trickle. To reactivate the flow of water to the tank (After examining hose for leaks), the valve will reactivate itself, provided the safety valve is disconnected from the supply temporarily, then reconnected and the water shutoff valve slowly opened.
It is important to keep the instructions that come with it attached to the supply hose, so that the homeowner knows that these special 12 inch hoses are installed on the
toilet. 
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.1000177291.html
Note: This floodsafe hose should not be used on washing machines as it restricts the flow of water. For occasional fillings at a slow rate like a toilet tank, it seems to work well.


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