# How do you set up & use a Bitcoin account ?



## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Has anyone set up a Bitcoin account ? How do you go about it without getting ripped off by scammers ?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

There's no perfectly safe method. Not sure that's what you want to hear.

That said, you can find good guides on the internet for doing it as securely as possible.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is no simple way to buy or sell bitcoins.

The exchanges and businesses are unregulated and given the past history of bitocin.............not very trustworthy.-

There are a lot of shady characters involved.


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## favelle75 (Feb 6, 2013)

Download the wallet from the official website, install wallet..... Done. Nothing scary about it really. You don't need to have your Bitcoins on an exchange, so not sure what that had to do with it?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

If you have any Bitcoin ATMs near you, that's about as simple as it gets to purchase them.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If all the OP wants is an empty wallet..........why bother? You can keep the numbers on a piece of paper or memorize them if you want to.

You can buy bitcoins at an ATM, rather than an exchange.......but either way you have to supply unknown people living in unknown places with your personal ID and information.

Given the track record of fraud and theft in bitcoin's history............that isn't something I would do.

If you are interested in bitcoins..........I would suggest you do some reading in this forum.

https://bitcointalk.org/

The most secure method of saving bitcoins is to keep them offline on paper........or on a designated computer that isn't secured to the internet. Always back up the "keys".......because there is no recovery if they are lost or stolen.

Bitcoin prices are here.........note the price has fallen 50% since the high of $1200. The charts show a downward trend.

http://bitcointicker.co/


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

To date, the biggest bitcoin thefts/scams have been in situations where you store your bitcoins with someone else (like an exchange).

Those are the situations where one day, the web site shuts down or disappears and takes all of your money. These are unregulated services and there's no accountability for your deposits, like at a real bank. One of these web sites was run by an Australian teenager, and one day $1 million worth of client bitcoins disappeared. Doesn't really matter who stole it ... the point is, it's gone.

So whatever you do, do NOT hand over your bitcoins to some site even if they say it's password protected or stored with encryption, or whatever. The proper way to use bitcoins is to store them yourself on your own premises. Any bitcoins you keep in an online "account" are as good as gone.

I like the method of keeping the bitcoins on paper.

Personally, I have no interest in bitcoins and have never bought any. When I feel like gambling, I buy stocks.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A list of the major bitcoin frauds, hacks, and outright thefts.....and the list doesn't even include the price manipulation that goes on unchecked every day.

Due to very small volume numbers, "whales" who mined or bought bitcoins when they were only worth a few dollars, can easily manipulate the market price lower by dumping a bunch of coins for sale on the market. The price goes down and they buy them back.....and a bunch more, at the lower price.

Bitcoin prices skyrocketed to from $100 to $1200 in a month. Since then they have dropped 50% in value and have been bouncing between $450 and $550.....sometimes in the same 24 hours.

I suspect some very smart stock market traders are making a killing on the volatility. They are fleecing the inexperienced sheep.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337


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## kevinlk (Jul 9, 2009)

As Bitcoin becomes accepted in more and more places, I see the downward trend in prices continuing. When a merchant accepts bitcoin as a payment, most of the time the merchant will sell the coins right away on the market in exchange of local currency or USD. Very few merchants hold on to the coins. 

Ironically, the Bitcoin community believes that if a major retailer, such as Amazon, was to accept Bitcoin, Bitcoin prices would go "to the moon" as people would rush in to buy Bitcoin as they can be used more easily. On the contrary, as Bitcoin doesn't have any advantage to the consumer, it's an hassle to set up and keep secure (need to keep the keys offline, and have multiple backups stored in different locations to prevent complete destruction in the event of a fire or something), that it's full of scams, viruses, etc, I don't see enough people buying into Bitcoin to counter the mass amount of spending (and thus selling) to the major retailer to substain the Bitcoin price. 

Imo, I would stay away from Bitcoin as long it doesn't give any advantage to consumers.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

To the OP the better question is why would you want to?


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

insurance against a currency crises, I do not think it is practical for everyone one to be walking around with gold coins in their pocket. Maybe put $10 on the table once a year to buy Bitcoin. Governments around the world are good @ taxing some of its hard working citizens to death. The citizens might say enough is enough & the Bitcoin perhaps is the best alternative which would mean it could really catch a bid.

I still have to look into the safest way of opening up an account & figure out how to receive some for barter & or purchase if bartering is to complicated.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

lonewolf said:


> insurance against a currency crises, I do not think it is practical for everyone one to be walking around with gold coins in their pocket.


You don't have to - you can buy gold bars and store them.

No one has the foggiest idea how Bitcoin will behave in a true currency crisis.
We haven't had a currency crisis since Nixon decoupled the USD$ from gold back in 1971.

Not even the staunchest evangelists of Bitcoin have a clear idea how it is going to behave in a true dollar crisis.
On the other hand, we kinda sorta know how gold behaves in a currency crisis - we have had several of them in the last 70 years, and more in the last 100 years.



> Maybe put $10 on the table once a year to buy Bitcoin.


$10 a year doesn't buy you much Bitcoin.
At least, nothing worthwhile.



> Governments around the world are good @ taxing some of its hard working citizens to death. The citizens might say enough is enough & the Bitcoin perhaps is the best alternative


Again, we don't know that yet - there is no prior body to evidence to draw conclusions from.
And what is there to say that governments won't outlaw Bitcoins, or confiscate it?
Bitcoin exchanges, after all, are physically domiciled in some or other sovereign country.
So are the servers that generate Bitcoin and create the required liquidity.

Lastly, don't forget the potential for taxation.
Half of all of your nominal gains on Bitcoin can be taxed away as capital gains.
Whatever is left is probably not going to help you in a true currency crisis.


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## favelle75 (Feb 6, 2013)

HaroldCrump said:


> Half of all of your nominal gains on Bitcoin can be taxed away as capital gains.


Doubtful. Because then the reverse of claiming capital losses would also be true.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Harold some good points.

Your right the metals have always been the safest bet. The limited supply helps keep everyone honest

For safety I should buy a bag of junk silver dimes for barter. I missed last buying opportunity in silver. If another one comes along will purchase some.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

favelle75 said:


> Doubtful. Because then the reverse of claiming capital losses would also be true.


But the whole theory is that if fiat currency collapses, Bitcoin will to the moon.
In that case, there won't be losses, but huge capital gains.

If you want to claim losses on Bitcoin (say, you bought at $1,300 a few months ago), you can do that even now.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

lonewolf said:


> For safety I should buy a bag of junk silver dimes for barter. I missed last buying opportunity in silver. If another one comes along will purchase some.


What last opportunity?
Silver is 50% lower than its 2011 peak.
If you want to buy, this is as good a time as any.

BTW, I wouldn't suggest junk silver jewelry for this purpose.
If you are buying it as insurance against fiat currency collapse, just buy pure silver bars 99.999% pure (like the ones sold by Scotiabank or Kitco)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

This is one of the best posts I have seen on bitcoins, from a practical point of view.

It should be noted that it doesn't even discuss the technical issues with bitcoin......such as a 51% attack or the ever expanding blockchain that is required for spending confirmation. It also doesn't discuss the fraudulent and criminal activity that has surrounded bitcoins since their origin.

_I cannot see the whole world using bitcoin when its going to create such wealth disparity.

There are roughly 13 million coins in circulation, with the maximum amount being 21 million. *This means over 50% of all coins in being, are in control of a small minority consisting of maybe 0.01% of the worlds population.*

Yes, there is a super-elite rich at the moment, but not at the scale we are talking about if bitcoin were to be adopted.

Is it not more sensible to think that yes, a cryptocurrency will exist, but not bitcoin? A coin where you are automatically assigned a certain amount based on your wealth at the moment, in relation to others?

*I find it absurd that someone, i.e the Winklevosses could own 1% of the worlds monetary power.* No one, absolutely no one in their right mind, will allow someone to hold this amount insane amount of resources.

I understand, the concept and even bitcoin itself is revolutionary, it has woken us up to what could be, but the origination and adoption of bitcoin was messy and only open to people who (rightly so) had knowledge and guts. But just because someone has guts it doesn't mean they are deserving of something.

*99.99% of the worlds population controlling 50% of the worlds monetary value and therefore resources, when early adoptors, i.e the 0.01% own the other 50%.* 1 person in the 'bitcoin elite' would have the same monetary power as 10,000 people. That's disgusting and human morality itself will not allow for this to happen.

Don't get me wrong cryptocurrency is the future, just not one causing a dictatorship to be born.

And for the short term I see no reason to invest either....


Swiping cards is just about the simplest thing you can do, most transactions under $50 don't require a signature, and security codes and card expiry are incredibly small concerns.

*Bitcoin's headaches are immense, slow txn processing, irreversible for the consumer, funds are lost if wallet is compromises[/U*]...now follow me for a sec...

*Merchants can't replace credit with bitcoin. Simply can't. Credit is money you don't have and bitcoin is money you do have. A good credit card offers rewards, 100% fraud protection, ubiquitous acceptance, FICO score benefits, and an entity between you and your money. Tons of consumer value.*

Now debit - debit fees were sliced by the Durbin amendment, so suddenly they aren't all that much more than the 1% exchange price of bitcoin.

While debit and bitcoin are comparable in that they are money you have, there is still no compelling reason for your average consumer to pay a fee to obtain bitcoin just to make an everyday purchase.

Merchants can want to eliminate transaction fees all they want but until there is clear value for the most important point in the value chain, the consumer, mass adoption will not occur. Even worse, to fix bitcoin's shortcomings, you need to regulate it, guarantee it, set up escrow's, exchange btc for USD...all the things that will make it just like the mainstream banks bitcoin is seeking to circumvent.

Even if these are fixed, its too late, people will realize the wealth disparity caused.

A new world cryptocurrency will be replace it, where the wealth disparity stays the same, where it is today... but with all the benefits that crypto has to offer so the world doesnt collapse?

_

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=754559.0

I would say anyone who wants to tinker around with a bitcoin or two...........go ahead.

But be aware that the likely scenario is that in the future a bitcoin is about as valuable as a hockey POG.


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## favelle75 (Feb 6, 2013)

sags said:


> Credit is money you don't have and bitcoin is money you do have.


And this is a bad thing? Looking at the state of the debt of most people, I don't think they should even own credit cards.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Most currency is only worth something because someone else is willing to trade useful things for it.

I don't see myself trading anything useful for bitcoins.
I really don't see the point of them.
1. They're not widely used
2. They're easily traceable. Every transaction is public.
3. They vary in value, there is no guarantee that they will have any value in the future. If a flaw is discovered (unlikely) they could collapse to zero
4. They aren't traded by regulated and government supervised boards/commissions etc. (not that they are worth much, but they're better than nothing)

I actually don't know of any real advantage to the use of bitcoins.


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## favelle75 (Feb 6, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> Most currency is only worth something because someone else is willing to trade useful things for it.
> 
> I don't see myself trading anything useful for bitcoins.
> I really don't see the point of them.
> ...


If you had a family member in Australia that you needed to wire money to instantly and for little to no cost, how would you do it?


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I actually don't know of any real advantage to the use of bitcoins.


you obviously don't move money around across borders very much ... every time you do, someone has their grubby little hand out nicks a small slice off yer cash

bitcoin offers the possibility of instant low cost money transfers in amounts from a dollar to a 100 million or more

not to mention that there are dozens of competing currencies one or more of whom may well succeed in becoming completely invisible

it may be possible to get a worldwide electronic version of cash

you don't see any value in that ? ... ok


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## dime (Jun 20, 2013)

Bitcoin has great potential for the future. Think of the early days of email or MP3 technology and the boom that followed. 

That being said, Bitcoin is unbelievably volitile and you can easily see 20-30% of the value of your bitcoin disappear in a couple months. Just study the charts. It's market cap is less than that of Western Union stock last I checked. 
It's been in decline since it's peak and lots of people have only lost money. You'll also pay a hefty premium to get some, often near 10% at a bitcoin ATM. 
If in time the price can demonstrate greater stability and wider adoption it can grow immensely in value, but it appears to be more experimental and emerging technology at the moment than anything 'investment grade'.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Bitcoin has potential, but a lot of problems as well. There are issues in how long it takes to process transactions, lack of theft protection/security risk, volatile purchasing power, fixed supply (unresponsive to changes in demand for bitcoin--means prices can skyrocket or collapse). I'm somewhat skeptical that bitcoin is at all superior to a low-cost CC model for payment processing. The main appeal seems to be for a niche of techno-libertarians, who like it for ideological rather than practical reasons.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Bitcoin has potential, but a lot of problems as well. There are issues in how long it takes to process transactions, lack of theft protection/security risk, volatile purchasing power, fixed supply (unresponsive to changes in demand for bitcoin--means prices can skyrocket or collapse). I'm somewhat skeptical that bitcoin is at all superior to a low-cost CC model for payment processing. The main appeal seems to be for a niche of techno-libertarians, who like it for ideological rather than practical reasons.


as to your last point, yes, it has appeal to techno-anarchist-libertarian types (it also has a lot of appeal to hard headed business types who see value in systems of moving money around the world quickly, cheaply and efficiently)

your first point is simply off the mark .. what technology doesn't have problems ? ... did you ever use paypal like about 8-10 years ago, i did and it was shot through with problems that have taken *years* to work out ... 

and credit cards ? credit cards don't have problems ? .. like skimming and duplicating and buying and selling of numbers on the black market and database hacking and pin theft and cloning etc etc ?

i am always amazed when people diss new currencies like bitcoin and remain blind to the same problems in other competing currencies

as to the issue of fluctuating prices, you will be able one day to buy, transfer and sell bitcoin in milliseconds and virtually remove price fluctuations (and by the way you are subject to price fluctuations when you use other systems too


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A digital currency that was easy to understand, fast and secure........would be of interest to a lot of people.

Bitcoin is none of the above..........and there is no central authority to apply solutions.

Bitcoin is the first step.........but it will be replaced by another digital currency........likely funded by corporate interest and backed by the US government.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Consumers are protected from theft and fraud with credit cards, with the cost built into the interchange fees. No such insurance for bitcoin.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

sags said:


> A digital currency that was easy to understand, fast and secure........would be of interest to a lot of people.
> Bitcoin is none of the above..........and there is no central authority to apply solutions.


Well, the need to have a "digital" currency does not justify Bitcoin's existence.
All major currencies these days are "digital" currencies.

The USD$ is, the CAD$, the EUR, they are all digital currencies.

The fact that there are paper (or plastic or coin) equivalents for carrying around in your pockets as petty cash does not mean they are not "digital".
Billions (actually, trillions) of units of these currencies are issued and traded every day in digital format.
All the exchanges, clearing systems, and accounting systems for these currencies are electronic.

Bitcoin does not have that exclusive privilege of being a "digital" currency.

Secondly, insofar as the so-called flexibility and convenience of payments and money transfers is concerned, that is simply a factor of the lack of regulation and reporting, and nothing inherent in the nature of Bitcoin.
It would be equally easy to use the USD$ as payments and transfers across the world within a matter of minutes.
All you need to do is remove the various checks, balances, audits, and regulations that both the originating country and the recipient country's governments have imposed on financial transactions, esp. since 2001.

The next thing you need is a low-cost payment processor, say someone like Western Union.
WU (or another company) can figure out a low-cost model that provides them a small profit per transaction, and also allow for near real-time remittances across the world.

Conversely, apply the same set of regulations, oversight, audit trail, and monitoring requirements to Bitcoin payments/transfers, and you will have the exact same delay/latency in processing.

None of these oft-touted features is anything inherently unique to Bitcoin.

As for the so-called rarity and capped supply argument, oh well, we can use Superman comics, gemstones, crystals, or any similarly rare compound.
Or, Gold, which already has a highly developed and liquid trading market and clearing system.
Far more advanced, liquid, and superior to the Bitcoin exchanges.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Well, the need to have a "digital" currency does not justify Bitcoin's existence.
> All major currencies these days are "digital" currencies.
> 
> The USD$ is, the CAD$, the EUR, they are all digital currencies.
> ...


oh come on harold ...

it would only be "equally easy" to use the us dollar ... except ... *no one is doing it* ... no one is stepping up to do it ... bitcoin _is doing it_ (with all the attendant risks)

you guys have all kinds of great ideas about why other technologies would work better and bitcoin is so risky except no one else is doing any of this stuff, your ideas are all pipe dreams ... 

you remind me of all the greenies who keep telling me that we can have millions of clean jobs to replace resource extraction jobs and i always ask "ok great where are they ?" ... the answer is that they are nowhere, they are fantasies in the mind of greenpeace

i don't give a hoot if bitcoin lives or dies, what i want to see is real disruption in the payments and money movement business .. and bitcoin is doing just that and compared to established systems and how long they took to mature, it is actually doing very well

it's power lies in its decentralization and that brings greater risk


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

fatcat said:


> oh come on harold ...
> it would only be "equally easy" to use the us dollar ... except ... *no one is doing it* ... no one is stepping up to do it ... bitcoin _is doing it_ (with all the attendant risks)


Indeed...for all the reasons I explained above in my post.
Regulation, oversight, sovereignty, disclosure, non-repudiation audit trail, etc.

Apply the same covenants to Bitcoin transactions and presto! it would require, give or take, the same time & hassles to conduct global transactions.
As long as the same covenants are not being applied to Bitcoin, the current state of affairs will continue.

Right now, a lot of Bitcoin transactions are being funneled through unregulated, non-disclosure tax havens such as the Isle of Man, Caymans, etc.
There is nothing inherent in Bitcoin that prevents govt. regulatory agencies crackdown.



> you guys have all kinds of great ideas about why other technologies would work better and bitcoin is so risky except no one else is doing any of this stuff, your ideas are all pipe dreams ...


Pl. note that I said nothing about risk.
My point is about regulation, audit trails, etc.
...and the fact that Bitcoin is no more a "digital" currency than the US$ is.



> you remind me of all the greenies who keep telling me that we can have millions of clean jobs to replace resource extraction jobs and i always ask "ok great where are they ?"


moi? Greenie?
Please don't insult me thus, O Brother :biggrin:


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Indeed...for all the reasons I explained above in my post.
> Regulation, oversight, sovereignty, disclosure, non-repudiation audit trail, etc.
> 
> Apply the same covenants to Bitcoin transactions and presto! it would require, give or take, the same time & hassles to conduct global transactions.
> ...


first, no, i would never make the mistake of confusing you with a greenie harold :biggrin::hopelessness:

as to the issue of government regulation of bitcoin, it is designed to be not quite impossible but so technically difficult that i don't see how it would take place ... the decentralization of bitcoin is what gives it tremendous power

there would need to be some ability to clamp down on the ingress and egress points but there are ways around that and it would be very difficult and create a lot of ill will and tumult that governments don't want ... it would fuel an anti-government fire that simmers already


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

fatcat said:


> as to the issue of government regulation of bitcoin, it is designed to be not quite impossible but so technically difficult that i don't see how it would take place ... the decentralization of bitcoin is what gives it tremendous power
> 
> there would need to be some ability to clamp down on the ingress and egress points but there are ways around that and it would be very difficult and create a lot of ill will and tumult that governments don't want ... it would fuel an anti-government fire that simmers already


A govt. does not necessarily need a technological solution for tracking and reporting on financial transactions.
They can legislate it for all companies that operate using Bitcoins.

Every business has to be registered and domiciled _somewhere_.
If all major governments move in quick succession to legislate the disclosure of Bitcoin-based financial transactions, the businesses will be required to comply.

That would leave only tax havens like the Isle of Man, Caymans, Macau, etc. as the only places for these payment processors to be registered in (which is the case currently).
Right now, Bitcoin volumes are barely a blip on the screen of global money transactions.
But once it develops critical mass and a certain volume, governments will start to pay more attention.

Just the way the US has bullied Swiss banks and other offshore private banks to rat out their account holder details, they can do the same for Bitcoin companies.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> A govt. does not necessarily need a technological solution for tracking and reporting on financial transactions.
> They can legislate it for all companies that operate using Bitcoins.
> 
> Every business has to be registered and domiciled _somewhere_.
> ...


all good points ... i would add that bitcoin has some very cash like functions ..one of the reasons crims use cash is because of its untraceability ... bitcoin shares with cash the ability to exchange coins person to person very efficiently ... in doing so the degree of anonymity is very high (and people are developing software to make it even more anonymous) so it may well survive as the electronic version of using cash to stay under the radar

but i do agree that for everyday people it will be easy to implement some measure of control 

i also agree that if significant western governments basically declare war on bitcoin, it wouldn't survive above ground in any meaningful way, to survive below ground all it needs is to _develop trust_ and all bets are off

my own interest is in the use of bc to drive down the price of moving money around and create more competition to banks, credit card companies, western union, paypal and so on

i think it has huge value there and its legal backers and supporters mostly want to achieve this


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## dime (Jun 20, 2013)

*Interesting article: The Long-Term Drivers of Bitcoin*

If you're interested in bitcoin you may enjoy this popular article on the NASDAQ website: 

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/the-longterm-drivers-of-bitcoin-cm384109



"None of this means, however, that Bitcoin is necessarily going to appreciate over the next few weeks or months."


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## favelle75 (Feb 6, 2013)

Some fairly important people in the business world are positive on Bitcoin. I'll take the CEO opinions of Dell, Overstock, and Expedia over a bunch of internet randoms on Canadian Money Forum anyday:

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/b...rchants-chase-digital-071511062--finance.html


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

favelle75 said:


> Some fairly important people in the business world are positive on Bitcoin. I'll take the CEO opinions of Dell, Overstock, and Expedia over a bunch of internet randoms on Canadian Money Forum anyday:
> 
> https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/b...rchants-chase-digital-071511062--finance.html


excellent article that talks about the good and the bad

i suspect many of the people here and elsewhere dissing bitcoin don't send and receive much money electronically, i do, and i pay through the behind for the privelege, here are some paypal fees:



> Selling is 2.9% + $0.30 per sale, or less.
> Merchant Rate:1.9% to 2.9% + $0.30 CAD per transaction
> Rate for eligible non-profits: 1.9% + $0.30 CAD per transaction
> International sales: 2.9% to 3.9% transaction fee + fixed fee (based on currency received)*
> ...


lets just average them out and say 3% for paypal (which is splitting off from ebay next year and doesn't like bitcoin one damn bit)

from the article:


> As soon as a customer pays in bitcoin, the digital currency goes to the payment processor and the processor immediately pays the merchant, *for a fee of less than 1 percent.*


do the math, on 100K of transactions we are talking a $2000 saving

there will very big movements of money digitally and bitcoin is a very attractive and viable option despite all the problems (which occur to every system as well)

this is going to get highly competitive and bitcoin is the tip of the spear

remember bitcoin is a payment system not an investment vehicle, it makes huge difference


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

_"In a way, bitcoin has been used by retailers as a marketing strategy to bring some much-needed buzz to brands that may be struggling."_


Yup.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Has anyone used the Bitcoin ATM in Vancover. To buy Bitcoins does it only take cash. I might be able to get someone to buy Bitcoin for me using the ATM.


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## favelle75 (Feb 6, 2013)

lonewolf said:


> Has anyone used the Bitcoin ATM in Vancover. To buy Bitcoins does it only take cash. I might be able to get someone to buy Bitcoin for me using the ATM.


Not me because the transaction fees are higher than the online exchanges, but I know a couple people who have and it was seamless.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The spreads are wide. Might as well buy your gold coins from Glenn Beck like a rube.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

fatcat said:


> remember bitcoin is a payment system not an investment vehicle, it makes huge difference


When you put it that way, it makes sense.
And I am all for it - as a payment system for ease of use, low fees, expediency, etc.

However, that is not how Bitcoin is being projected in the media, and by its original enthusiasts/zealots.
It has been touted as just about everything - from an investment, to the new Gold standard, to a liberation for the anti-establishmenters, the Libertarians, the anarchists, etc.
You should see/read some of the rhetoric (you probably already have, I am sure).


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> When you put it that way, it makes sense.
> And I am all for it - as a payment system for ease of use, low fees, expediency, etc.
> 
> However, that is not how Bitcoin is being projected in the media, and by its original enthusiasts/zealots.
> ...


sure there is huge hype around bitcoin but that isn't the fault of the serious backers, that is a result of the lunatic investors who have more money than brains ... it is squarely at the feet of the one of the seven deadly sins, greed

bitcoin was designed and intended to be a way to move money and pay for goods and services ... you cannot blame bitcoin for all this crazy speculation

it's true there are etf's in the works but there are etf's for all kinds of currencies

the *serious backers* of bitcoin want to implement a frictionless, low cost, worldwide payment system, not an investment vehicle or even a way to avoid taxes

i can't help what the crazy speculators and lunatic anarchist right-wing want to do with bitcoin, it isn't the fault of the currency

personally i have _never_ seriously looked at it as an investment vehicle ... why not buy pork bellies or some other highly risky commodity with my retirement nest-egg ?

i want to create disruption and innovation in the electronic payments industry ... i want to *not* have to deal with paypal


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It may or may not succeed in that regard. But for it to work, it is still going to need to be converted to and from local currency, at a spread. I'm not sure all the claimed cost savings are going to be realized.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

andrewf said:


> It may or may not succeed in that regard. But for it to work, it is still going to need to be converted to and from local currency, at a spread. I'm not sure all the claimed cost savings are going to be realized.


do you maintain currency accounts ? i do .., like paypal and us dollars as examples

i convert in batches (or as needed sometimes) and i hold them

then i spend them ... bitcoin will be the same

the idea would be to have bitcoin available for purchases that are right for bitcoin

currency conversion always costs money but bitcoin offers a less expensive option for merchants that's where you will see the savings .. they won't be nicked by paypal (nor will you)

can paypal and credit cards and western union and the banks start to do the same things ?

of course ... but a vigorous bitcoin will put downward pressure on prices for everyone ... and right out of the gate bitcoin has a big advantage, it is a worldwide currency, right now, accepted all over the world ... the other systems just don't offer that ... and yes, at the moment you take on more risk, so the answer is to use bitcoin for small purchases 

but yes, currency conversion always costs money


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## spazzdla (Mar 3, 2016)

andrewf said:


> It may or may not succeed in that regard. But for it to work, it is still going to need to be converted to and from local currency, at a spread. I'm not sure all the claimed cost savings are going to be realized.


quadrigacx is a perfect exchange

Not much of a spread..

I would highly recommend you not touch Bitcoin until you understand Encryption and how to make an offline wallet.

There is NOTHING on the planet more secure than an offline wallet... This is the potential of Bitcoin. If encrypted properly it can be stored on the web, accessed at anytime and only by the person with the correct passphrase.

There is NO COUNTER to the lead pipe decryption tatic though, aka the gov, imprisons you and tortures you until you tell them.. I doubt there will ever be a counter to that say, hiding the fact you own any which can be done if you know what you are doing.

Bitcoin will not become something people buy a coffee with.. it may rival gold however... If BTC had the same networth as gold each Bitcoin would be worth $400,000.00


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It has become more apparent as time goes on that none of the financial institutions or mainstream companies are interested in bitcoins themselves, but are looking at variations of the blockchain to record transactions.

The bitcoin blockchain itself has run into problems already as it will never handle nearly enough transactions to be efficient, and there is a divide among bitcoin enthusiasts on what to do about it.

Bottom line is none of the big boys are interested in making bitcoin owners wealthy simply because they own some. Those companies will create their own "currency" and enrich themselves or simply use US dollars.


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