# The Logic of Stupid Poor People



## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

On the topic of necessities vs luxuries in another thread, I was reminded of a thought-provoking article I read a few weeks ago about looking down on the spending habits of the poor.

I don't agree 100% with the article - I think people, both poor and rich, in general spend for less noble reasons than to slip by gatekeepers - but it raised a lot of points from a societal and cultural angle that I had never thought of (because I have never been in that position). 

http://tressiemc.com/2013/10/29/the-logic-of-stupid-poor-people/


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## alingva (Aug 17, 2013)

An outstanding book that compares regular folks with millionaire is The Millionaire Next Door. Many people will be surprised to know that rich people do not spend money on expensive wine, watches, food, restaurants. They use coupons, discounts, used clothes and drive cheap but reliable cars. And this is the reason (or one of) why they have money. Poor people watch TV and get their understanding about rich people from there. 

Another reason is ...frugality. Many people are spenders. Ask a rich person what he/she will do with an extra million $. Most of them will invest it. Ask the same question a poor person - he/she will spend it...


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

Not what the article is about, but ok.


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## techcrium (Mar 8, 2013)

Good read.

Einstein always said that not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted.


I am well aware of the non measurables that a nice car will bring you. Perhaps you can seal the deal with a date or a client. Each purchase decision is always a battle


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That title seems a bit insulting. There's a lot of poor people in Canada and generally speaking, it's not because they're stupid, or even because they make bad decisions.

Wealthy people from wealthy families get a big advantage in life, full stop. It seems obnoxious to me to go around telling poor people that they're poor because they do stupid things.

Yes some low income people blow large amounts of money on frivolous purchases. But high income earners waste money like this too. In my opinion a big difference between the rich and the poor isn't that their spending habits are so different, but rather that rich people have the resources to bounce back from their mistakes, whereas poor people don't.

For instance a rich person (or son of a well-off family) might overspend, get in financial trouble, but then be able to quickly get another high paying job, or make use of emergency savings, or no cost loans from their family.

In contrast a poor person who gets in financial trouble doesn't have the resources to get out of trouble. Their next job won't pay much, their family doesn't have money to assist with, and they probably have to go deeper into debt to make ends meet.

Someone should write a book entitled "The best way to get rich is to be born into wealth" because it's probably much closer to the truth of 'getting ahead' in Canada and the USA. Yes I'm aware that there are immigrants who arrived very poor and through hard work gained higher wealth, and it makes a nice story, but I think it's probably the minority of the cases. I feel that criticisms of the poor end up distracting us from the real key factors in why someone ends up rich or poor in life.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Something of an eye opener for me, in that I didn't realize these tiny details of appearance were so important but I can believe they are true.
The only thing I disagree with is the idea they don't apply to white men. The aging hippy may be able to get a haircut and put on a suit but he will not step into a corporate management job without the right resume and work history. I could agree that being white is a step up but not that big of a step.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

james4beach said:


> That title seems a bit insulting. There's a lot of poor people in Canada and generally speaking, it's not because they're stupid, or even because they make bad decisions.
> 
> [..]


You should actually read the article first before replying. It's not what you are assuming it's about.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I read it now. So this is about status symbols. I guess my comments may be irrelevant in this context


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

All so true. A perfect example is my kid sister. She flunked grade 9 and never went back. (Yes, you read that right) but because she's a) white b) from an educated family she has always been able to not only get a job, but ALWAYS white collar jobs. Because she walks in wearing a suit and looks like she belongs, which buys her the chance to demonstrate her abilities.

Also, it's more expensive to be poor. Cell phones are expensive, but when you don't have a fixed address, you can't "choose" a cheaper land line. Prepared meals are more expensive than raw veggies, but when you live in a basement with a bar fridge and a microwave you can't "choose" to eat economically. Unless by economically, you mean not eating at all, which is often the "choice" poor people make. Pretty soon it all adds up to cyclical poverty.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I've also got a great example. My high school had lots of rich kids in it. Some of them were real bums. Always high, sold drugs to other kids, got terrible grades. One of them dropped out of school and became a drug dealer. What happened to these bums 10 years later?

I was actually looking at linked in yesterday and gasped when I saw a couple profiles. These are kids from wealthy families (business owners and inherited wealth). Some of the stupidest people I know. Current jobs, _I **** you not_: manager at a bank. Loan manager at a bank. Investment advisor. Keep this in mind next time you get 'investment advice' from a professional

Stupid, stupid kids who did terribly in school and heavily used drugs.

Anyone want to guess what would have happened if those same kids were aboriginal or black?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

(I thought that was going to be the set-up for a Rob Ford joke)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wasn't the intent of my post but it shows how people like Rob Ford and Doug Ford can so easily be involved with drugs & other illicit activities. It's not an impediment to wealth, success and power if you're rich and white.

If you're aboriginal though, by this point in life you'd probably be in jail, or dead.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> (I thought that was going to be the set-up for a Rob Ford joke)


I'm still not certain that the linked article isn't intended to be satirical.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

For a good example making the same point as the original article. Some time ago I read the autobiography of a well known English actor. He was born in the east end of London and grew up in a typical Cockney family. When he was a young man in the fifties he was very taken with American music, fashions etc and sought out shops where he could buy the kind of shirts Dean Martin wore, and had a pair of blue suede shoes before Elvis sang about them.

At the same time, or not long after, he went to a lot of trouble and expense buying some expensive bespoke suits. Through a friend of his father's he found a back street shop that did a lot of work for Saville Row tailors and basically, got Saville Row custom tailored suits for a fraction of what they cost in the west end.

Even then, he had to save up for weeks or months to pay for one suit but to him it was worth it to have the sharpest clothes. 

The suits really paid off when he went looking for work. He got his first job, in an advertising agency, on the strength of his appearance backed up by some complete lies about his education and previous job experience.

Apparently he was very successful in advertising for 5 or 6 years before he left to become an actor. But he never would have gotten a chance without the right clothes.

Details in Stamp Album by Terence Stamp.

The point is that putting up the right front can go a long way. We might prefer to think otherwise but more often than not, superficial appearances will at least get you in the door.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

^
Another Cockney actor, nee Maurice Micklewhite, said that when he decided to become an actor the resistance he encountered was not from the, (in those days), 'upper' class but from his peers..."Who do you think _you_ are to become an actor?"

Misery doesn't necessarily love company, but it sure loves miserable company.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

As far as Rob Ford goes, he is not the first crack head mayor of a major city. That honor goes to black Marion Barry of Washington. He not only went to jail for dealing crack, he was re elected after he got out.

Ford has be controversial as long as he has been in politics, only recently has he completely gone off the rails.

O well at least they can't say Canadian politics is dull.

I think it is unfair to suggest that blacks and aboriginals are prone to using drugs and drinking, but are incapable of stopping long enough to do anything useful.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

It's funny...

When I was younger, I wore a suit and tie to work every day...hated it.

Decided it was no longer for me, so gave it up for tshirts and jeans. Been doing work that way for decades, work with the COO's and CEO's of many companies, deal with big banks...never any real issues. They know I do very good work. The lack of a suit has never been an issue...but then I've protected my reputation. Maybe it's my industry, maybe my reputation, or maybe the suit just isn't all that important anymore.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Not an impediment, you must be joking. Ford is dead politically, he doesn't have sense enough to lie down.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Just a Guy said:


> It's funny...
> 
> When I was younger, I wore a suit and tie to work every day...hated it.
> 
> Decided it was no longer for me, so gave it up for tshirts and jeans. Been doing work that way for decades, work with the COO's and CEO's of many companies, deal with big banks...never any real issues. They know I do very good work. The lack of a suit has never been an issue...but then I've protected my reputation. Maybe it's my industry, maybe my reputation, or maybe the suit just isn't all that important anymore.


Would you have gotten in the door if you had shown up for your first interview for your first important job in jeans and T shirt?

Right now you may be protected by your reputation but I wouldn't expect much advancement.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

What kind of jobs are these?and secondly what kind of management is this?
if the difference between you and another applicant is won because you showed up in Gucci and all the rest showed up with tank tops under blooses-that is a pretty low bar!
the head of "hr" is maxed out to the tilt in bling and status symbols to project a image.
I get what the article is saying though,if your a poor kid from the projects it expresses in some many ways."you can take the kid out of the projects but not the projects out of the kid"
this story seems a bit like fluff.
this will smith in the pursuit of happiness!?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Interesting article. I think the struggles that poor/black people may experience with seeking a job or trying to be taken seriously is less to do with the presentablility of dress or car, and more to do with entire personality/look.

If you've been raised on limited means and poorly educated, it's probably your vocabulary and pronounciation, "uncomfortableness" in middle class situations, perhaps bad teeth or some other personal appearance issue that is an obvious tell.

Meanwhile, these white guys that act and speak like dumbasses, that are inarguably "low class" by all account, still probably have a solid base of proper childhood education, personal hygene, and can speak with presentable elocution and pull it together during an interview if they so choose.

That being said, I would wonder if this whole subject is a historical account of how things were, not how they are in 2013. Even if you're a middle class white male these days, good luck getting past the HR filter if you don't have the proper education or some unsual gaps or "odd" situation with your resume.

What this article seems to be implying is that there is racial discrimination rampant, but all I see is class discrimination. While that is obviously not "fair" either, it has a more grounds for truth. If this story was about poor stupid white people being unable to compete against middle class white people, no one would be wriled up about it. It would just be a "duh" moment.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

Canada vs US also.

Specifically the deep south. The author is a PhD student in Atlanta. 

I think we're insulated from that extreme, especially in the larger Canadian cities where diversity is not just accepted, it's the norm.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Would you have gotten in the door if you had shown up for your first interview for your first important job in jeans and T shirt?
> 
> Right now you may be protected by your reputation but I wouldn't expect much advancement.


I agree about not much advancement potential, I own multiple companies...

Didn't come from rich parents either.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

One takeaway thought that I got from the article apart from race discrimination was the idea of buying an image to eventually become that image. Fake it, till you make it. Perception is reality.

Previously, I've had discussions with sales people, real estate agents, etc about why they dress up in very expensive suits and drive up to clients in very expensive cars. The answer I always get is to project an image of success: "The product/service *must* be good because everybody must be buying it - look how well the sales guy is doing!"

Perhaps I've got more of a modest background, but if I was the client, I'd be asking, "Just how much is the profit margin anyway?!?"

Then again, more relevant to the article, perhaps if the client also wore $5000 suits and drove a Bentley, he'd also prefer to buy from someone that looked like him in the mirror? Successful people buy from successful people?

Great article, though. She writes very well and really made me think about issues tangential to the topic. Her other articles (nothing to do with finance) are also very thought-provoking if you have the time.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I read an article awhile back, where a young person on welfare was interviewed.

He was trying to get welfare to pay for getting his teeth fixed, so he could go to job interviews looking presentable.

His teeth were in terrible shape. He came from a poor family that didn't have the money for dental care, and the poor lad was ashamed to even smile.

Appearance is a big part of "first impressions", and I don't care how modern thinking the person doing the hiring may be..........first impressions are important.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

On the other hand, I was working afternoon shift and was at home one day while my wife was working.

The doorbell rang, and I answered it.

When I opened the door, there was a guy in a rumpled up suit holding a vacuum cleaner. In the driveway, I could see an beat up car with a couple of young kids in it.

He said he was "demonstrating" in the area........blah, blah..........

For some unknown reason, I let him in and he started to vacuum the living room, while I sat on the couch and watched his kids out the front window. I was getting anxious with them sitting out there alone.

I barely paid any attention to him..........as the kids out in the car had all my attention.........and after about 5 minutes.........I had enough.

Okay, I will take one..........I said.

Well, I wanted to explain all the features of air purification..............he said.

Yea, I can read all about it. I will get you a cheque.

I gave him a cheque and hustled him out the door.

When my wife came home......she had a brand new 1200 vacuum cleaner..........and I had a lot of explaining to do.

We still have the vacuum 20 years later...........and she swears by it now.

Point being............I bought the vacuum cleaner because I felt sorry for the guy..........no other reason.

Maybe I am just dumb that way.

I read about some infamous mobster.........who shuffled around the neighbourhood in his housecoat and slippers, projecting to all the world that he was simply a poor guy barely getting by.

That was the "impression" he tried to use.........but the police didn't buy it........and off to jail he went for some new duds.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

^
The second time I was in Sri Lanka, 50 years ago, (and it's worldwide), we'd see beggars with babies.......I was told that, half the time, they rented them for the day. :chuncky:


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

sags said:


> I read about some infamous mobster.........who shuffled around the neighbourhood in his housecoat and slippers, projecting to all the world that he was simply a poor guy barely getting by.
> 
> That was the "impression" he tried to use.........but the police didn't buy it........and off to jail he went for some new duds.


Vincent Gigante IIRC http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/19/obituaries/19cnd-gigante.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> ^
> The second time I was in Sri Lanka, 50 years ago, (and it's worldwide), we'd see beggars with babies.......I was told that, half the time, they rented them for the day. :chuncky:


Marketing at it's finest..........LOL

I have a difficult time saying no............so, I would prefer to avoid going to places with beggars. I would give all my money away.

My dad taught me that I guess. He would give anybody anything he had. It never seemed to bother him though.......made him happy.

Thanks for the link to the mobster........yes, that is the guy I was thinking of.

Imagine spending decades pretending to be mentally ill.........and wandering around in a housecoat and slippers, talking to yourself.

I wonder...........was it worth it all............when he couldn't enjoy the money anyways.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Something of an eye opener for me, in that I didn't realize these tiny details of appearance were so important but I can believe they are true.
> The only thing I disagree with is the idea they don't apply to white men. The aging hippy may be able to get a haircut and put on a suit but he will not step into a corporate management job without the right resume and work history. I could agree that being white is a step up but not that big of a step.


Well, being white is the difference between having your resume tossed out right away because it's assumed that you can't speak English or getting it looked at to see if you have the experience.
Then again, in Vancouver, we are observing some weird reverse phenomena in retail. If you have an English last name, your resume gets tossed out because you can't speak any Asian language. 

As an ex-business owner this article makes sense. Cruel and politically incorrect, but it is reality.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I often wonder about the dividends that can be paid in the future by spending money ''upfront'' and on image being in business.
Should the average man in a sales driven occupation upgrade his clothing/vehicle,should he allocate extra money towards shoes/watch ect and this type of thing?
This is a balancing act.Being thrifty and money minded often leads to the exact opposite and like what is being said here 1st impressions matter.
But than again a large portion of the buying public do not like a flash approach.
I sell roofs,i tailor my dress when i know i am going to different neighborhoods(khakis/dark jeans and a collar shirt being the main dress wear,obviously i won't wear a suit because it is completely uncalled for)
It is tough to know!But i do believe the intangibles are far more important-clean/smiling/fit/speaking well/body language/eye contact ect!
I will say think god i don't make my 1st impression ever on writing criteria lol(writing is by far one of my weakest attributes,slight dyslexic)
There is always something anybody can judge though on a person(educated wealthy people included,not just poor people-we all have flaws i believe physical or otherwise)
I tend to notice in selling always have the prospective client feel he is superior,i don't think people like to admit it but i think most people want to be one ''up'' on there fellow men being whatever,could be false though.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Little off topic but also interesting(i am average height,5 11 roughly)but short men(5 8 and under)are often at a huge disadvantage(wealth won't help)not only in business but also female mate selection.
I have noticed the vast majority of successful people tend to be tall.Human height is also a interesting automatic basis.(not sure if this is only a male thing)


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

donald said:


> Little off topic but also interesting(i am average height,5 11 roughly)but short men(5 8 and under)are often at a huge disadvantage(wealth won't help)not only in business but also female mate selection.
> I have noticed the vast majority of successful people tend to be tall.Human height is also a interesting automatic basis.(not sure if this is only a male thing)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YpBo9WuKRE


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

lol,i was being serious though nemo,most people do defer to taller people automatically.If all things are equal in a job interview you can figure with certainty the taller person will be chosen.....trialing off a bit here on the subject!back to ''stupid poor people''-that heading is a little jarring.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

The more I read this thread, the more I think I see the pattern...

Maybe it's more unsuccessful people look for an excuse (height, race, gender, religion, financial background, etc) so they don't need to take responsibility that the problem may be themselves. 

Now the states may be different, but in Canada I don't see much discrimination (unless we're talking newfies P-))on any issue, maybe I even see reverse discrimination in things like government...in Vancouver, they used to need to provide you with a driver's test in the language of your choice (I don't know if that's still true) even though all the signs are in English...ever seen a man working at lady footlocker, lasensa, Victoria secrets? They have women at the male equivalent stores...but this wasn't meant to be an equality rant. 

I think we live in a generation that are addicted to playing the victim.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> (I thought that was going to be the set-up for a Rob Ford joke)


Lol. Apparently he's pretty wealthy, so it might not fit perfectly.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

What now you're trying to hold back rich drug addicts from their chance of success???


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> Maybe it's more unsuccessful people look for an excuse (height, race, gender, religion, financial background, etc) so they don't need to take responsibility that the problem may be themselves.


I think it's more accurate to say that certain standards are perpetuated by society/culture, and people lose confidence if they don't measure up to those standards. I could add a few more like weight, looks (especially in women), premature hair loss in men, etc.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

donald said:


> Little off topic but also interesting(i am average height,5 11 roughly)but short men(5 8 and under)are often at a huge disadvantage(wealth won't help)not only in business but also female mate selection.
> I have noticed the vast majority of successful people tend to be tall.Human height is also a interesting automatic basis.(not sure if this is only a male thing)


There's a joke that we've been passing around in the business circle. Execs all have to be 6' tall to project that dominating image.


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## GalacticPineapple (Feb 28, 2013)

KrissyFair said:


> Also, it's more expensive to be poor. Cell phones are expensive, but when you don't have a fixed address, you can't "choose" a cheaper land line. Prepared meals are more expensive than raw veggies, but when you live in a basement with a bar fridge and a microwave you can't "choose" to eat economically. Unless by economically, you mean not eating at all, which is often the "choice" poor people make. Pretty soon it all adds up to cyclical poverty.


This doesn't make any sense. There are so many options with cellphones that you can practically name your price. Prepared meals are not necessarily more expensive than fresh produce. Even if produce is cheaper, you can eat it raw or microwaved. If people often make the choice to not eat, they'll be dead, not poor. None of this creates cyclical poverty.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Very true nathan.who are ''they'' anyways!the hell with them,lol
Just about the topic,i feel like the writer has to be some what discredited though(phd grad....she escaped,having a mother like that i would argue she knew she would escape-she was raised with dignity)I was bored tonight and read ''stories in cabrini green"projects in chicago,true gritty accounts about what life is like growing up poor/black and in america(without a happy ending)that has ''no'' fluff
I have always had a fascination with wealth(both sides)
I would recommend the hbo special homeless:the motel kids of orange county.(excellent documentary)this is very in line with cycles topic.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Caus,you feel like that has merit?(height)I think your asian,correct?If i recall,i think i have read a lot of news pieces regarding height and how it is a ''status'' symbol?Is this true in the business culture back home?.Are people judged the same way back in your homeland than in america?(superficial)
asian culture any different?


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

donald said:


> Caus,you feel like that has merit?(height)I think your asian,correct?If i recall,i think i have read a lot of news pieces regarding height and how it is a ''status'' symbol?Is this true in the business culture back home?.Are people judged the same way back in your homeland than in america?(superficial)
> asian culture any different?


Well, asian companies choose western looking execs with a different purpose in mind. The real power in any asian company lies with the primary shareholder that sits in the President's seat. So a western looking CEO's primary function is to raise money and photo ops + wining and dining. Usually based in USA as well. I've actually met a couple of them and every one of them immediately started blowing off steam with me and complain about their dissatisfaction. It's not often that they can find someone who understands their situation and side with them. But yeah, being 6' tall is usually a requirement. 

In USA, Most execs with signing power are usually tall especially in the traditional sector, not sure if 6' tall, but they are always about 1 head taller than me. In Vancouver, most white woman are taller than Eastern Canada, and white woman are usually same height or taller than me. So you get an idea. In tech, it is less so, but it could be because in Hi tech, there's a lot more percentage of founding members that are still CEO and founders usually didn't get there because they need to project a sense of intimidation and respect.

On a side note. I have slimmed down to almost no cloth after 4 consecutive moves in a year. Now I got a chance to repopulate my wardrobe. Should I go full bling with expensive suits? I am thinking, the benefit of attracting new business probably outweight the negatives. Negative being people tend to expect certain things from rich people and tend to give less discounts, rips you off more and me personally doubting why people approach me. I will still keep my poor man's disguise for when I need to hide, but on average, I will be full bling 90% of the time... even at home. Are there advantages and disadvantages that I am not considering?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I think dressing to fit into your network(esp attracting new clients is important)and you do have to at least meet it,i would not exceed it.
Depends i guess what that entails,i don't think you can ever go wrong wearing classic business attire,i think the most important thing is fit(make sure it fits right!)
Some people might disagree and think what a bunch of **** but i believe one benefit of wearing nice clothes is if you start looking in the mirror you start telling yourself ''damn i look good'' and that translates outside into the real world!It brings you up a notch and makes you a better person perhaps(instead of hanging around home in a slightly dirty faded sports t)Shoes are key also and prob a watch.
The bling thing i would watch-out for,bling can signal the wrong message(fat gold,ect looks bad imo)what is your definition of bling?I guess it really matters what industry your in but i would also have to give the nod to dressing well,this is one area men are notoriously bad at and i think it can give you a edge.
When your personal shopping,yeah i say shop in jeans and a tee(not a good time to be playing a ''role'')
What brands you usually wear?what men stores do you frequent ect?how do your clients dress?
I myself am thinking about getting some new wear(a few business casuals,maybe spend a couple grand this winter incl a nice pair of shoes,just to fresh up,so of my go to stuff is getting a bit beat up)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)




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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Misleading title aside, I didn't read anything I didn't already know. You're judged everyday by everybody you meet. What's the first thing people see? Your physical appearance. That of your body and your clothes. Then they hear your voice, and finally your actions.

To think you aren't judged like that is naive. After people get to know you they judge you less by what you look like and more by what you do but you need to make that first impression. Often, you'll never get a chance to prove yourself simply because the waiter, salesperson or HR director never needs to get to that point in the relationship.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Causalien said:


> Well, asian companies choose western looking execs with a different purpose in mind. The real power in any asian company lies with the primary shareholder that sits in the President's seat. So a western looking CEO's primary function is to raise money and photo ops + wining and dining. Usually based in USA as well. I've actually met a couple of them and every one of them immediately started blowing off steam with me and complain about their dissatisfaction. It's not often that they can find someone who understands their situation and side with them. But yeah, being 6' tall is usually a requirement.


So some guy gets hired to be a CEO simply because he's tall and white and he doesn't even need to do anything other than take people out to dinner and pose for pictures? Or am I misunderstanding? How do I get this job? Where do chinese companies recruit for their CEOs? Tell me so I can apply! I don't have any relevant skills or experience, but I project a pretty good image in a suit!


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## KrissyFair (Jul 8, 2013)

GalacticPineapple said:


> This doesn't make any sense... Prepared meals are not necessarily more expensive than fresh produce. Even if produce is cheaper, you can eat it raw or microwaved. If people often make the choice to not eat, they'll be dead, not poor.


I really encourage you to test out this hypothesis. Try eating only single-serving, prepared foods that don't require freezing and see how much you spend. Better yet, try eating all of your produce raw or microwaved for a week. Oh, and see how feasible produce really is when you have to store it on the counter because you can't fit it in your bar fridge. 

And 1 in 10 kids in this country go hungry at least one day a week because their parents really do have to make that choice. Yes, as you point out, often they do die (children born into poverty have a shorter life expectancy - 5 years for boys - that NEVER goes away even if they get out of poverty), but even more often they experience a chronic deterioration of their health (diabetes, vision and hearing impairments etc) that ends up costing them more money to treat. Which keeps them poor.

I work with low income people all the time, so I get to see their realities. Barriers and cycles are real, they're just hard to see when they don't apply to you.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

donald said:


> I think dressing to fit into your network(esp attracting new clients is important)and you do have to at least meet it,i would not exceed it.
> Depends i guess what that entails,i don't think you can ever go wrong wearing classic business attire,i think the most important thing is fit(make sure it fits right!)
> Some people might disagree and think what a bunch of **** but i believe one benefit of wearing nice clothes is if you start looking in the mirror you start telling yourself ''damn i look good'' and that translates outside into the real world!It brings you up a notch and makes you a better person perhaps(instead of hanging around home in a slightly dirty faded sports t)Shoes are key also and prob a watch.
> The bling thing i would watch-out for,bling can signal the wrong message(fat gold,ect looks bad imo)what is your definition of bling?I guess it really matters what industry your in but i would also have to give the nod to dressing well,this is one area men are notoriously bad at and i think it can give you a edge.
> ...


My bling is just classic accessories. I don't like to wear gold anything as I am opposed to gold as an investment philosophy. 

"Rolodex" watch, blue titanium meteor ring, custom made suits. Still looking for a shirt that is wrinkle free (Tried a few of these in the states, saves me from having to iron them in hotel rooms on the road), but it'll be teal colored. Calvin Klein blue steel tie. Cuff links still looking, these are more personal. Already got my dress shoes as this is very important, the difference between a $200 pair and a $40 pair is the difference between no blisters and blisters from standing and walking all day. 

Then buy 7 pairs of all of them. (except for accessories I suppose) and probably just a second pair of the same dress shoes (if I can find it)

I get accosted a lot by seedy people with an agenda in the states, even got my suit jacket stole. So that's I have some reservations, but it's basically a balance of the "amount of business" it brings and the time/money wasted with the extra unwanted encounters.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Sherlock said:


> So some guy gets hired to be a CEO simply because he's tall and white and he doesn't even need to do anything other than take people out to dinner and pose for pictures? Or am I misunderstanding? How do I get this job? Where do chinese companies recruit for their CEOs? Tell me so I can apply! I don't have any relevant skills or experience, but I project a pretty good image in a suit!


Is that sarcasm or are you really looking?


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I was reminded often of this living in Vancouver. One memory that stands out is of a dumpster diver with the most unfortunate last name (Nipple). He has WILD curly hair that he would get cut maybe once a year, as a young 20-something I was a bit terrified of him. I worked at the police station at the time, covering the front desk, and he would bring in electronic equipment he found in the dumpster to have it checked to make sure it wasn't marked stolen before pawning it. Normally we couldn't do that, but most of the older police officers knew the guy and would run it for him as they knew he wasn't stealing things.

One of the guys I worked with knew Mr. Nipple quite well from having talked with him over the years, and he told me that this guy had loads and loads of money in the bank but spent little of it. It amazed me how so many people would look at this guy and judge him (negatively, just as I had at first) meanwhile the guy had more cash than most average people in Vancouver!

I learned some valuable lessons from that, and still think of Mr. Nipple to this day.





alingva said:


> An outstanding book that compares regular folks with millionaire is The Millionaire Next Door. Many people will be surprised to know that rich people do not spend money on expensive wine, watches, food, restaurants. They use coupons, discounts, used clothes and drive cheap but reliable cars. And this is the reason (or one of) why they have money. Poor people watch TV and get their understanding about rich people from there.
> 
> Another reason is ...frugality. Many people are spenders. Ask a rich person what he/she will do with an extra million $. Most of them will invest it. Ask the same question a poor person - he/she will spend it...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Addy..........for Mr. Nipple........it was the thrill of the hunt.

That is something rooted deeply within the anthropological core of a man's being, suppressed only by centuries of trained docility.......but still burning deep inside, that makes him yearn to let his hair grow and run wildly through the woods naked.

I used to be a werewolf............but I'm alright NOOOooowwwww.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

sags said:


> Addy..........for Mr. Nipple........it was the thrill of the hunt.
> 
> That is something rooted deeply within the anthropological core of a man's being, suppressed only by centuries of trained docility.......but still burning deep inside, that makes him yearn to let his hair grow and run wildly through the woods naked.
> 
> I used to be a werewolf............but I'm alright NOOOooowwwww.


Hahaha, women react to it too, I'm sure that's why I was always attracted to wild looking celebrities like Neil Young and Randy Savage among others. Thank god my husband is clean cut and respectful.


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## mbmb (Oct 17, 2012)

donald said:


> I have noticed the vast majority of successful people tend to be tall.


I have also noticed that majority of top management people are tall.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Addy said:


> One of the guys I worked with knew Mr. Nipple quite well from having talked with him over the years, and he told me that this guy had loads and loads of money in the bank but spent little of it. It amazed me how so many people would look at this guy and judge him (negatively, just as I had at first) meanwhile the guy had more cash than most average people in Vancouver!


Maybe it's a west coast thing...

Last year I was hanging out on the beach in San Diego. I was chatting with the lifeguards as it became dusk. I pointed to a distant swimmer in the ocean, who was really far out, and asked the lifeguards if they're keeping an eye on him. They said oh yeah... he's a well known local and is here every day. They pointed me to his bicycle, which was loaded up with garbage bags (looks like he's homeless or something). They told me he's probably one of the wealthiest men around here and chooses to live like a hermit although he's very rich. He just bikes around with his possessions, and spends hours swimming in the ocean every day.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Mbmb,i truly think there is a huge plus with height,i have a olive complexion(italian)i'm not saying it is that big of a factor but-short is associated with immigrants,maybe a little?(again i am not short....honest lol,average-internet)but western whites are taller(italian,jewish,chinese,east indian ect.....usaually not as tall)
Maybe because i was not as tall as some of my friends.....i dunno maybe it is completely false,but i would challenge anybody,just on stats,i am willing to bet most ceo's on the top 50 canadian companies are 6 ft and white(no mixed race)
I would not underestimate physical bias still in 2013....white,blond,tall,*pure* european?.....maybe i am delusional.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Just to be clear i am not in that ''sphere''(average joe)but it is a interesting point.
I am in construction and have worked with countless guys from the inner city(labour help ect)I agree with kissy,it is no joke there are real barrier's!!!


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Maybe it's a west coast thing...
> 
> Last year I was hanging out on the beach in San Diego. I was chatting with the lifeguards as it became dusk. I pointed to a distant swimmer in the ocean, who was really far out, and asked the lifeguards if they're keeping an eye on him. They said oh yeah... he's a well known local and is here every day. They pointed me to his bicycle, which was loaded up with garbage bags (looks like he's homeless or something). They told me he's probably one of the wealthiest men around here and chooses to live like a hermit although he's very rich. He just bikes around with his possessions, and spends hours swimming in the ocean every day.


Glad to know there are people like that out there.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I love that stuff ^^^.....maybe he is drippin mad stocks(mcd stock circa 85),crazy like a fox,liv'n on his terms,don't give a rats a what anybody thinks!laughing inside at the normal folk.
gotta admit there is something of a romance in that.crazy smart nomad.than again maybe its sad,who knows dunno.Guess these guys are really out there.A bum with money is def interesting!Even the life guard lets him do his thing,bet he is the only guy allowed past the floating cones lol


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

donald said:


> Mbmb,i truly think there is a huge plus with height,i have a olive complexion(italian)i'm not saying it is that big of a factor but-short is associated with immigrants,maybe a little?(again i am not short....honest lol,average-internet)but western whites are taller(italian,jewish,chinese,east indian ect.....usaually not as tall)
> Maybe because i was not as tall as some of my friends.....i dunno maybe it is completely false,but i would challenge anybody,just on stats,i am willing to bet most ceo's on the top 50 canadian companies are 6 ft and white(no mixed race)
> I would not underestimate physical bias still in 2013....white,blond,tall,*pure* european?.....maybe i am delusional.


Don't forget the hair. You have to have lots of hair to get the corner office. A little gray at the temples is also good. No baldies.

And teeth. You need real good teeth.

Tall and white, with hair and teeth, and if you look like you know what you are doing you can write your own ticket.

If you are not in the lucky 1% who looks like a movie star I am afraid you will have to work for a living.

A little sarc in the above. If you think success is something someone gives you, or if you expect to step into a cushy job in a company that someone else built on the basis of your looks you are delusional.

Would also suggest if you believe there are no Italian, Jewish, Indian or Chinese CEOs you need to get around more.

I would love to be there when you tell the Italian, Jewish, Indian or Chinese CEOs the reason no one gave you the CEO's job is because of your looks. I bet they would give you some.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's another example
Homeless Man Leaves Behind Surprise: $4 Million

He was a retired engineer and a Marine. He looked homeless... when he died, he left a $4 million estate including donations to multiple charities: for instance NPR, with his instruction that the money be used to "encourage others to discover public radio".

What a hero!


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Reminds me of a philosophical question I asked on an RV board some time ago.

There are retired people who live full time in a $100,000 Airstream trailer or $250,000 motorhome, following the sun, and have no other home and no permanent address.

Would you describe them as homeless?

Think of it. These poor people with no homes and no jobs. Nothing to do all day but chase a ball around a golf course or stroll up and down a beach full of bikini models under the hot sun. No decent clothes, just sandals, shorts and a Hawaiian shirt. Nothing to eat but one piece of meat for the whole family (a juicy steak 3" thick") which they are forced to cook out in the open over a charcoal fire.

Doesn't your heart bleed ?


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## Hawkdog (Oct 26, 2012)

james4beach said:


> I've also got a great example. My high school had lots of rich kids in it. Some of them were real bums. Always high, sold drugs to other kids, got terrible grades. One of them dropped out of school and became a drug dealer. What happened to these bums 10 years later?
> 
> I was actually looking at linked in yesterday and gasped when I saw a couple profiles. These are kids from wealthy families (business owners and inherited wealth). Some of the stupidest people I know. Current jobs, _I **** you not_: manager at a bank. Loan manager at a bank. Investment advisor. Keep this in mind next time you get 'investment advice' from a professional.
> 
> Stupid, stupid kids who did terribly in school and heavily used drugs.


Stupid? or unmotivated because they never had to work for anything? Some kids get off on the wrong path then manage to correct themselves doesn't mean they are stupid - they grow up.

Same with the status symbols, in high school everyone want the latest names to look cool, but you get over that


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

^

To j4b's example, I think it's a perfect point that it's not so much what particular current appearance you have right now that matters, but your deep down understanding of society and in what environment you were raised from 0 to early teens.

These "real bums" are in fact not real bums, they are _fake_ bums. No amount of slacking, drug dealing, rapping, pant sagging or cap and/or collar popping is going to erase the first 14 years of excellent child rearing. Good schooling and parenting, diversifying a young mind to new possibilities with family vacations and watching the news / discussing politics of the world, art, culture and languages, proper nutrition, hygiene and fitness, having a large vocabulary and proper elocution, knowing who you can and can't mouth off to, when to shut up and when to speak up.

These are the things that matter, and these are all the things that all the poor people in the original article are trying to emulate, but can't. They can't see or understand the details, all they can see are the nice clothes and cars. They just have to guess how it all fits together in the world of "being successful".


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