# Uber, and Young People Driving Expensive Cars



## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

Thought I'd share some observations and theories on this.

So I live in downtown Toronto, and as you might know it's a honeycomb of condos now. Cheap condos, mostly renting for $1400-1700. And something I see quite often is people pulling out of the parking garage of one of these condos, driving a Mercedes or a BMW, with expensive modifications, certainly a $60,000 to $80,000 car. And they'll be 24-28 years old, usually male. 

I know people make money in all kinds of ways, so who knows, maybe some of these young folks are wunderkinds making over 200k a year, and maybe the cars were gifted by overly indulgent rich parents. But it often strikes me as odd that someone who is clearly living in a low-to-average quality condo is driving an $80,000 car. Given Canadian debt statistics I imagine credit is the main reason I see this so often. For years I've wondered how these people keep the plates spinning.

*What I've found to be fascinating most recently with the advent of Uber is that nowadays I'm being driven around in BMWs half the time. BMWs being driven by young people. Am I right in thinking that these are mostly over-indebted young guys driving Uber in their spare time in an effort to pay off the car they can't afford?*


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Probably. I'm not originally from Toronto, but one thing I noticed since moving here is that many people, particularly young guys think it is very important to be driving a luxury vehicle. Even if it consumes a huge percentage of their income to own. Many of them are able to do it because they still live with their parents.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

I think Uber is irrelevant. You are seeing this influx of new cars by Uber because that is a requirement from Uber. The vehicle must be less than 5 years of age. Though, young adults will buy expensive cars forever. There is an emotional attachment to cars for some. I don't have that emotional attachment. I have more friends buying new or like new cars off the lot vs my co-workers who are middle aged or better who drive around in average, good condition, used cars. They (myself included) try to do as much maintenance ourselves, where as any little quirk for my friends -- it goes to the dealership. Here are a couple toppers:

25 male. $45k/year salary. Bought a $26k BMW (used) with borrowed money at 6.25%. Living at home.
24 male. $70k salary. Bought a $35k Mustang (new) with borrowed money around 2.5%. Living at home.
25 female. $55k salary. Bought a $35 VW (new) with borrowed money around 3.5%. Home owner.

I am 27. Around $60-70k annually, I admittedly bought a $12k car (used) and thought I was blowing a ton of money. I borrowed 10k @ 2.89% secured with cash. I could pay it off tomorrow, but I am making more in the markets at the moment. I own a house. 

I think they are crazy.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Ag Driver said:


> I think Uber is irrelevant. You are seeing this influx of new cars by Uber because that is a requirement from Uber. The vehicle must be less than 5 years of age. Though, young adults will buy expensive cars forever. There is an emotional attachment to cars for some. I don't have that emotional attachment. I have more friends buying new or like new cars off the lot vs my co-workers who are middle aged or better who drive around in average, good condition, used cars. They (myself included) try to do as much maintenance ourselves, where as any little quirk for my friends -- it goes to the dealership. Here are a couple toppers:
> 
> 25 male. $45k/year salary. Bought a $26k BMW (used) with borrowed money at 6.25%. Living at home.
> 24 male. $70k salary. Bought a $35k Mustang (new) with borrowed money around 2.5%. Living at home.
> ...


They are Ag.

I'm in my early 40s and the best car/nicest car I've ever owned is a Kia. I also have a 16-year-old car. 

Unless you can get 0% financing and you intend to keep the car for >10 years, cars are a wealth destroyer. 

Kids living at home help.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

This is an eastern asian ethnic trend mostly. Heres why. In some of these places that are so populated, real estate and real property are a dream and most will never own more than a sliver of property or a maybe a strata. In its place, they prize technology and autos and then live at home until they marry in their 30s. It all of your disposable income in your pocket, you can live pretty good on a small salary.

However its not even remotely building wealth. Cars never make you a dime and end up costing a lot. These guys are buying a debt with depreciating value.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

Interesting replies.

I can't help but feel like they're related trends. Yes, Uber cars have to be new, but they don't have to be BMWs. Would you really buy a BMW to work a job that is essentially minimum wage, when you could do the same job in the Kia? I think these people are overextended and desperate.

It's a personal goal of mine to not own a car until I have kids. I should make it past 32 at the very least.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Janus said:


> I can't help but feel like they're related trends. Yes, Uber cars have to be new, but they don't have to be BMWs. Would you really buy a BMW to work a job that is essentially minimum wage, when you could do the same job in the Kia? I think these people are overextended and desperate.


Uber drivers aren't buying cars solely for the purpose of driving for Uber. It is a gig to make some extra coin on the side with your vehicle.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

Ag Driver said:


> Uber drivers aren't buying cars solely for the purpose of driving for Uber. It is a gig to make some extra coin on the side with your vehicle.


Exactly. And if someone is driving a BMW and working part time for minimum wage, *they're doing it all wrong.*


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Janus said:


> maybe some of these young folks are wunderkinds making over 200k a year,
> 
> ...
> 
> What I've found to be fascinating most recently with the advent of Uber is that nowadays I'm being driven around in BMWs half the time. BMWs being driven by young people. Am I right in thinking that these are mostly over-indebted young guys driving Uber in their spare time in an effort to pay off the car they can't afford?


Well, yeah.

I don't think it takes 200k though, just a commitment to having no savings and spending your whole income... Something you and I probably can't effectively wrap our heads around Janus, so you assume everyone must be making huge bank to live like such ballers!

A successful young man earning $80k in Toronto may have a spending breakdown that looks like:

Income after Tax/CPP/EI: $58,500/a or $4875/month.

Rent: $1500
BMW 528i lease: $700
Car expenses: $400
Groceries: $300
Restaurants/Bars/Entertainment: $900
Clothes and luxury goods: $400
Cellphone: $100
Vacations: $500
Other: $100

Total: $4,900

Totally different world from our "Make ~100k, spend ~$3,000/month, and save ~half our income" lifestyles.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Janus said:


> Exactly. And if someone is driving a BMW and working part time for minimum wage, *they're doing it all wrong.*


I agree, but I still stand by my statement that Uber is irrelevant. Uber or not, young people will still buy expensive vehicles.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Our daughter lives in one of these buildings but there are also $1 million+ condos there along with the 400 sq ft entry level units , when we visit and park in her parking space we sometimes think we are in a luxury car lot.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

peterk said:


> Well, yeah.
> 
> A successful young man earning $80k in Toronto may have a spending breakdown that looks like:
> ...
> ...


 ... more like this ... alot cheaper than leasing a Porsche, Ferrari or Lambo.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

*Peter*: yeah that makes the most sense. i know most of them *don't* earn that much and thus can't afford those cars, I'm just saying that I'm willing to give some of them the benefit of the doubt. 

*Ag*: you're not really following my line of thinking at all. You seem to think I'm saying uber is causing people to buy nice cars. What I'm actually saying is that *among* the population young people who *already* own nice cars, some are being driven to become uber drivers to supplement the lifestyles they can't actually afford.


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## GreatLaker (Mar 23, 2014)

There is an interesting dichotomy here, because I have seen several articles describing how young people don't care about cars any more, and how the car makers cannot find marketing strategies to attract them. But there is definitely a group of young people that spend a lot of money on conspicuous consumption like cars, entertainment, clothing and vacations.

I am on the board of a downtown Toronto condo, and it is not unusual for owners living in $500k condos, driving $50k cars, regularly not being able to pay their condo fees, to the point they beg us not to lien their unit. In addition to the usual costs noted below, they also have legal fees associated with costs of collecting condo fees.



peterk said:


> Well, yeah.
> A successful young man earning $80k in Toronto may have a spending breakdown that looks like:
> 
> Income after Tax/CPP/EI: $58,500/a or $4875/month.
> ...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Young people like a nice condo, with designer furniture. They want a nice car........preferably a foreign upscale model. They want to dine out every day.

Basically, they want to enjoy the rewards of a long working life, without the long working life part. They want it now.

I can't blame them though. It is an attractive lifestyle for young people. Dash about here........dine there..........cruise along.........what is not to like ?

Oh.......maybe the debt. But they have years and years and aren't worried about the future. Retirement is for old folks.

Young people are also very pessimistic about the future. Maybe they figure they will live well today because there probably won't be a future to worry about.

We might get hit by a meteor. A super volcano could erupt. World war. Virus plague and zombies.............

Of course if none of that happens, they will find themselves at age 64 and wondering how they are going to survive.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Uber is a great company for the owners of the company, but I read the drivers actually earn about $3 dollars an hour and legally are supposed to pay income taxes on that.

Hardly worth having passengers in your car or putting the extra kms on your vehicle from my point of view.

I operated a delivery company with my car for a couple of years. After I figured out all the expenses, including car maintenance and depreciation, I was losing money.

I claimed losses for 2 years and then thought...........why am I spending my nights driving around the city delivering to places "around back" in dark alleys at midnight ?


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## treva84 (Dec 9, 2014)

sags said:


> Young people like a nice condo, with designer furniture. They want a nice car........preferably a foreign upscale model. They want to dine out every day.
> 
> Basically, they want to enjoy the rewards of a long working life, without the long working life part. They want it now.
> 
> ...


One of my friends (who is 26) said it best - "Debt is a part of life".

Meanwhile, she has $40 k in wedding debt, a negative household net worth (her and her husband combined), and is talking about buying a new, bigger house as "interest rates are so low" (despite moving into her current house in 2013).


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I know and it is a waste of time talking to them about it.

They listen and then 5 minutes later they are telling me all about their plans to buy a million dollar house and a cottage.....with speed boats of course.

How do I buy a house without a down payment.........they ask. It isn't that people can't understand it. They just don't want to.


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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

Was talking with a young guy in the grocery store parking lot just getting out of an slk 350, a few years old, in good shape as they usually are. Nice car says I ... I've been sort of watching for a deal for a year or so now ... thanks says he. We talk cars for awhile ... he says yep, it's a car that will last ... I was not interested in a used BMW says he because young guys buy them and drive the crap out of them. So, here's a young guy, did some thinking, bought a quality used car for the long term ... made sense to me.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is the other side of the coin.

We would gladly trade our $60,000 in pension incomes to be 25 and buried in debt .


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## ML91 (Dec 5, 2015)

OP, 

I am a 24 year old male living in Toronto. From my experience, probably 80% of the people that are 22-28 living downtown are helped by their parents SIGNIFICANTLY. A lot of my friends are wealthy, as are their friends, and their parents buy them these nice cars, pay for rent, and a lot have their parents credit cards as well. 

Majority of them even "work" for their parents


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

ML91 said:


> OP,
> 
> I am a 24 year old male living in Toronto. From my experience, probably 80% of the people that are 22-28 living downtown are helped by their parents SIGNIFICANTLY. A lot of my friends are wealthy, as are their friends, and their parents buy them these nice cars, pay for rent, and a lot have their parents credit cards as well.
> 
> Majority of them even "work" for their parents


I'm sure that's also a major factor, and a scary one at that. A lot of decay and dysfunction in our economy is being masked by the perfectly rational reaction of the boomers to bail out their floundering children. There would probably be 10-20% of 23-30 year old Canadians living in crime ridden favellas if it weren't for our parents that rescued some of us from unsuccessfully launched careers. What happens when housing prices crash, boomers are all pensioners, and the future 23 year olds have Gen X parents instead?


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## Rob Ford's Ghost (Mar 24, 2016)

If you're 'into' cars and recognize what you're looking at, most of the "high end" Mercs, BMWs and Audis cramming the streets of Toronto and Vancouver are typically base models. The demographic buying them are into it for the badge. Why lease a new Accord or Camry at $300 a month when you can put a couple grand down and lease a BMW 3 Series, Mercedes C-Class or Audi A4 at $399 a month instead (sarcasm)? 'Luxury' carmakers are all about leveraging their status to get the middle-class into an entry-level model at an 'affordable' lease rate these days. 


As an aside, I was in France, Italy, Greece and Israel a few months ago. I used Uber pretty extensively in the major cities. The drivers were exclusively younger North African males. Every car was a brand new C250 or 320i. The odometers were already in the 5 digits; talking to the drivers, they said they run the cars constantly, each between 2-3 drivers in a 24 hour period - it's the only way to make money, and not much at that, based on Uber's pay rates, need for new cars and demanding ratings system.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I've asked many drivers in Seattle & Portland, and they say they really don't make ANY money driving for Uber. And yes there seem to be a lot of newish, nice looking cars. Many of the drivers are hispanic, middle eastern, or african.

These drivers tell me they make better money from Lyft, which has a better payment scheme and treats their employees better. So I only use Lyft and regular taxis myself.

*Rob Ford's Ghost*: by the way, I feel that your name is in bad taste. If one of your family members or close friends passed away, I doubt you'd want some guy on a message forum posting with your name. Consider deleting your profile and registering with a different name.


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## Newby1983 (Apr 9, 2015)

I see a lot of this too. My cousin bought $200k condo 8 years ago only built 50% equity, Rsp/Tfsa...what's that? But at least he has a $50k bmw. 

But this takes the cake. My wife's friend, a teacher for 5 years (not with the school board) pulls into our driveway the other day in a Honda pilot. Fully loaded. So I say "nice car". I find out it's leased. I thought leases were only good for people with businesses. My wife tells me she complained how if her or her husband lost their job they couldn't make mortgage payments. So apparently even teachers who have recently paid off student debt and into their ears in mortgage debt can afford a pilot (btw her husband delivers furniture...as an employee not owner and she does not come from money).


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I'm not that far removed from my 30s (a few years) and I'm always surprised to hear about 30-somethings living at home still. Amazing. I was "forced" to go to school, get an education, get a job and get on my feet starting when I was 18. I guess in hindsight I was very lucky but living at home other than summers off from university was not an option after age 22.

As for the teacher driving a Honda Pilot...I'm shaking my head. 

I've always thought once you have a full-time job, if you can't afford to pay yourself first, at least 5-10% off the top and live off the rest (house, car, living expenses, etc.) then you either need to work harder to get a higher paying job, keep a cheaper car, delay home purchase or delay other gratifications. The ability (rather requirement) to pay yourself first is essential to having any savings, emergency fund, let alone any retirement nest egg. Maybe I'm too conservative...I dunno!


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## mcoursd2006 (May 22, 2012)

Young people with expensive cars: I never had one, nor could I ever afford to buy anything but a compact or subcompact, used. The only 'luxury' I afforded myself was that I wanted a Honda or Toyota. I drove my dad's beat-up Honda Civic while living at home. When I left home he gave me the car. When we had kids that car was our chariot for a few years until it had to be replaced due to a leaky fuel line.

I wish I could have afforded a BMW, or even a Honda Prelude, at the time. Driving around town in a car like that projected an image of success, virility, and just general all-round 'coolness'. And come on, chicks dig it!


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

My Own Advisor said:


> pay yourself first, at least 5-10% off the top and live off the rest


That's is probably the best piece of financial advice I had ever recieved when I was younger. I still abide by the 10% rule religiously.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Rob Ford's Ghost said:


> If you're 'into' cars and recognize what you're looking at, most of the "high end" Mercs, BMWs and Audis cramming the streets of Toronto and Vancouver are typically base models. The demographic buying them are into it for the badge. Why lease a new Accord or Camry at $300 a month when you can put a couple grand down and lease a BMW 3 Series, Mercedes C-Class or Audi A4 at $399 a month instead (sarcasm)? 'Luxury' carmakers are all about leveraging their status to get the middle-class into an entry-level model at an 'affordable' lease rate these days.
> 
> 
> As an aside, I was in France, Italy, Greece and Israel a few months ago. I used Uber pretty extensively in the major cities. The drivers were exclusively younger North African males. Every car was a brand new C250 or 320i. The odometers were already in the 5 digits; talking to the drivers, they said they run the cars constantly, each between 2-3 drivers in a 24 hour period - it's the only way to make money, and not much at that, based on Uber's pay rates, need for new cars and demanding ratings system.


Yup.. people see BMW in Canada and assume it's an expensive luxury car. BMW has exploited a luxury brand power here in the same way Buick has in China. 1 series BMW in Germany is like a Civic.. and it feels like it inside. Not exactly luxury.

I drove an old Honda for half of my 20's. It needed a lot of work but it was more of a time cost than money (did most of it myself) Peers would scoff and joke if I needed a ride to a shop though, because everyone drives a new car nowadays. In the end I gave it away and got a BMW M in my late 20's. It was expensive on expendables because I raced it. But it sold for more than I paid because they don't make them like that anymore!

Buying new cars is financial suicide but buying a used BMW or Mercedes is not a big deal. The real diference: young guys in condos probably don't have multiple sh!t factories to chaperone around so their lifestyles are entirely different than the majority servants of little people.

I often used Uber in Asia. The taxis at airports are scam artists especially for tourists and Uber drivers are like normal human beings who can carry a converstation besides trying to get commission. And their cars are clean.. You have to wait a bit longer for an Uber in Asia but it's worth it. Their prices are rock bottom even for Asia so I always tipped well. With the taxis you have to know the right price or you'll overpay.

Uber drivers definitely aren't making much if any money. If you already own the car and you have some time to kill, you could do it casually for a few extra $$. Why not? I think Uber prices will come up over time and that's fine. They are like loss leaders for now.


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## blin10 (Jun 27, 2011)

Rob Ford's Ghost said:


> The demographic buying them are into it for the badge. Why lease a new Accord or Camry at $300 a month when you can put a couple grand down and lease a BMW 3 Series, Mercedes C-Class or Audi A4 at $399 a month instead (sarcasm)? 'Luxury' carmakers are all about leveraging their status to get the middle-class into an entry-level model at an 'affordable' lease rate these days.


I'm sure for some that's the case but for many it is not buying into the badge. honda/toyota is not on the same level as bmw/benz/audi, same way as kia not on the same level as honda. So if you really like cars why not pay extra $100-200 a month for something that is better? Same way, why are you paying $300 a month for camry when you can pay $200 for a kia? I understand this is money saving forum, so there will be a lot of folks saying how all those young kids wasting money, but that's not always the case


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Related sidebar: For my 1 week holiday around Vancouver island this spring, should I rent a Ford Fusion for $330, a BMW 328ix for $540, or a Ford Escape for $480?

I've sensibly pre-booked the Ford Fusion already...but I'm really itching for that BMW, and also thought perhaps there'd be some adventurous gravel roads or off road paths to follow that the Ford Escape would allow more worry-free access to...


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

peterk said:


> Related sidebar: For my 1 week holiday around Vancouver island this spring, should I rent a Ford Fusion for $330, a BMW 328ix for $540, or a Ford Escape for $480?
> 
> I've sensibly pre-booked the Ford Fusion already...but I'm really itching for that BMW, and also thought perhaps there'd be some adventures gravel roads or off road paths to follow that the Ford Escape would allow more worry-free access to...


It's a vacation, I'd say get the BMW if you envision doing some leisurely scenic driving. I'd suggest the Ford for someone going to NYC or Chicago, or better yet, no car.


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

james4beach said:


> I've asked many drivers in Seattle & Portland, and they say they really don't make ANY money driving for Uber. And yes there seem to be a lot of newish, nice looking cars. Many of the drivers are hispanic, middle eastern, or african.
> 
> These drivers tell me they make better money from Lyft, which has a better payment scheme and treats their employees better. So I only use Lyft and regular taxis myself.
> 
> *Rob Ford's Ghost*: by the way, I feel that your name is in bad taste. If one of your family members or close friends passed away, I doubt you'd want some guy on a message forum posting with your name. Consider deleting your profile and registering with a different name.



You`re too kind james.......what type of idiot makes a mockery of someone`s name on a investing forum that just passed away last week? Brutal buddy!!!!!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Vancouver island? Just get a surf board or hiking boots and sharpie to write where you want to go on cardboard :biggrin: Unless you want to impress your date then get the 328. Some 3 series don't have cup holders by the way. Very luxury!


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

The vehicle segment is being ruined just like the housing sector has been with cheap dumb money and buyers living in ways we couldn't have imagined 25 yrs ago. Back then if you were 30 yrs old living with your parents and getting a wages from them or they paid your rent, you were a laughable loser. 

Its the same as these houses. Big and fancy and wow, but there are 3 generations in some of these. Even some of those European refugees and terrorists are driving benzes. Ive got a friend who wants to buy a bmw worth more than my farm tractor. I own a $28,000 van and a $35,000 truck. I keep my vehicle expenditures to the bare nil cause I know what they are.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

jollybear said:


> You`re too kind james.......what type of idiot makes a mockery of someone`s name on a investing forum that just passed away last week? Brutal buddy!!!!!


Good to me that that nasty bit of tripe has been mentioned. By the time I saw this thread, there were a number of replies to the OP, saying nary a word about the handle, so I thought that I was out of step in seeing anything wrong with it. These couple of adverse comments give me some hope. Apparently the OP holds no belief in karma.

Peterk, is the Ford 4-wheel drive? That can be useful in some Vancouver Is. gravel road locations. I drive on the island quite a bit, year-round, both of our vehicles are 4WD and I would not drive anything else. But, for scooting around LA freeways for example, 4 WD is not necessary.

Also Peterk, for what it is worth, some vehicle rental contracts contain a provision under which you agree not to drive on unpaved roads.


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## jollybear (Jun 28, 2015)

It`s not the original post we are referring to......it`s the idiot on post #23


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> Also Peterk, for what it is worth, some vehicle rental contracts contain a provision under which you agree not to drive on unpaved roads.



this is true. Some paved roads are even off-limits for some rental companies, at least in quebec, if it's contemplated that there will be construction or repair on em during the upcoming season.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

jollybear said:


> It`s not the original post we are referring to......it`s the idiot on post #23


Sorry jollybear, I was in error in referring to the original post. I did not go back to confirm the identity of the original poster to this thread - Janus - on whom I intend to cast no aspersions. I mistakenly thought the original poster here was the post #23 idiot. But, I have now checked back and I see he was the original poster to a thread entitled "Commercial/Residential investment property resources?" On that thread, no one took him to task for the distasteful name he chose to use.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Watched on the Ottawa tv news last night that Uber is starting to address the needs of disabled people in wheelchairs. 

One wheelchair resident wants Ottawa to get this service ASAP, as the current para-taxi service even when discounted by the city is still very expensive to most.
I have paid $70 round trip for as 20km ride to the Ottawa Hospital. 

Uber has wheelchair access in quite a few states and apparently setting up in Toronto, so this should score them some brownie points with the city council.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> Peterk, is the Ford 4-wheel drive? That can be useful in some Vancouver Is. gravel road locations. I drive on the island quite a bit, year-round, both of our vehicles are 4WD and I would not drive anything else. But, for scooting around LA freeways for example, 4 WD is not necessary.


Good question - I assume it was, but double checking on the website, it doesn't specify actually. I'll have to call.



> Also Peterk, for what it is worth, some vehicle rental contracts contain a provision under which you agree not to drive on unpaved roads.





humble_pie said:


> this is true. Some paved roads are even off-limits for some rental companies, at least in quebec, if it's contemplated that there will be construction or repair on em during the upcoming season.



Here's my dirty little secret though...I often ignore those restrictions on roads they say you can't go down... It is my one guilty pleasures of recklessness in an otherwise responsible life. Not that I ever do anything insane like trying to ford rivers or scale mountains with my rentals, but the best stuff to get to always seems to be down a narrow rocky gravel road, or following a sandy beach path for a few km. Paying for the 4x4 is my insurance that any technically disallowed things I do won't lead to disaster. 
Just like in national parks, the best views are usually had once you get past the "Danger: Do Not Pass. Cliff Ahead" signs. Sometimes to get the most out of life, you have to bend a few rules. 









Here's Lighthouse Beach on Eluthera, Bahamas. Only accessible by driving over a muddy bedrock road with some ancient chewed up asphalt here and there, and finally scaling 3 large sand dunes to get to the impromptu parking lot at the beach.








And here's me straddling the "natural bridge" in Yoho...Strictly prohibited obviously, and definitely not something I would likely attempt these days, but at age 22 when this was taken, it seemed like a good idea.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Thanks for the pics, peterk.

I have not been to Lighthouse Beach, but I'll admit to having driven a rental vehicle to the end of Rose Spit in the Queen Charlotte Islands. So, I won't rat you out if you do likewise on Vancouver Is. I cannot speak for what humble_pie might do.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

peterk please carry on. If they rent somebody a 4wd they must know upfront he's not going to be doing 70kph on a divided highway all day long. 

maybe don't go showing pictures like standing over split rock in yoho national park to your poor mother though.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

^^ Looks like a hell of a skinny sandy road heading out to Rose Spit there, Mukhang. I'll have to check it out one day!

^ I'm not the one in the family she has to worry about HP . And I usually have the GF along wherever I go these days, so picturing her relentless complaining if I were to get the car stuck is a strong motivator to keep my shenanigans down to a reasonable level. :biggrin:


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

That yoho pic is awesome. Love that turquoise glacier water.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

peterk said:


> ^^ Looks like a hell of a skinny sandy road heading out to Rose Spit there, Mukhang. I'll have to check it out one day!


I commend it to you. Worth the trip. There is actually no road there, just a strip of sand, the width of which varies with the tide. If the tide is high, you can get marooned. 

tygrus is right. The Yoho pic is awesome. Good chance I'll be in Yoho for a bit this summer. Might have to go to where you took the photo. I do not think I have seen that on times when I have been there in the past. Maybe I'll try to emulate your photo. So what if I am not 22 anymore? I'll just make sure I have in place a fat life insurance policy for my wife. Or would I be caught by a no coverage for a suicide death within 2 years kind of clause? Me attempting to copy your antic might be ruled a suicide.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks for the pics, peterk...those are great


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## JP* (Aug 11, 2015)

I bought my first new car September 2014, a Toyota Corolla. For me, making a payment every month on the new vehicle is a better choice. I put 40k km a year on my vehicle as I commute into Ottawa. My fuel bill would be the equivalent of property taxes in Ottawa. My repair bills on my used vehicles per annum were high enough that the new vehicle is justified, plus better fuel economy. However, the Corolla was not the vehicle I originally wanted. I wanted the RAV4 but it was out of my price range. 

If you could do your own wrenching, bought used and enjoyed cars as a hobby I could see how people in my income range could afford or justify a luxury vehicle. However, I agree with most posters that the young folks in T.O are well above my income range or are getting assistance from the bank of Mom and Dad.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

peterk said:


> Here's my dirty little secret though...I often ignore those restrictions on roads they say you can't go down... It is my one guilty pleasures of recklessness in an otherwise responsible life.


Those great pics reminded me of my own little reckless adventure in 1985, driving a tiny rented Fiat 14 miles on a rocky, deeply rutted Land-Rover track in western Scotland. I had to avoid the ruts and negotiate the car over some pretty impressive boulders sticking up out of the road, but in a few spots I had to go into the ruts in order to avoid scraping the car against giant rocks on either side. Slipping into the ruts nearly bottomed out the car and I ended up squashing the exhaust system, so at the end of the trip I had to take it to a garage where they hammered the pipes and muffler back into shape. The rental company never noticed!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Janus said:


> I'm being driven around in BMWs half the time. BMWs being driven by young people. Am I right in thinking that these are mostly over-indebted young guys driving Uber in their spare time in an effort to pay off the car they can't afford?


No, it's much sadder than that. They probably acquired the car specifically for Uber because they _thought_ they'd make money driving. Uber deceives naive young people (and desperate immigrants) into very low wage work, and crappy jobs

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17201/uber_s_business_model_screwing_its_workers
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/uber-driver-says-he-made-eight-dollars-an-hour-1.3527435
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Lyft-Uber-drivers-turnover-high-wages-low-6585229.php
http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-drivers-say-theyre-making-less-than-minimum-wage-2014-10

And here's the answer to why you see these fancy Uber cars. It's because the suckers, the drivers, thought they'd make money doing this:



> http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17201/uber_s_business_model_screwing_its_workers
> 
> From the very beginning, Uber attracted drivers with a bait-and-switch. Take the company’s launch in LA: In May 2013, Uber charged customers a fare of $2.75 per mile (with an additional 60¢ per minute under eleven mph). Drivers got to keep 80 percent of the fare. Working full time, drivers could make a living wage: between 15 and $20 an hour.
> 
> *Drivers rushed to sign up, and thousands leased and bought cars just to work for Uber — especially immigrants and low-income people desperate for a well-paying job* in a terrible economy. But over the last year, the company has faced stiff competition from its arch-rival, Lyft. To raise demand and push Lyft out of the LA market, Uber has cut UberX fares nearly in half: to $1.10 per mile, plus 21¢ a minute.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And it also appears that Uber has been pushing its drivers to get subprime car loans
http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-drivers-into-su-1649936785

So next time you're in a Uber driver's BMW, think of how the driver is getting less than minimum wage and how his deceptive employer tricked him into buying/leasing a car. It sounds like you should stop using Uber, honestly.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Ag Driver said:


> I think Uber is irrelevant. You are seeing this influx of new cars by Uber because that is a requirement from Uber. The vehicle must be less than 5 years of age.


Is this a new change that is coming? 

The Uber Canada web site says the vehicle must be 2006 or younger ... which by my math says ten year old or younger. The ten years number matches previous articles I have seen.


Cheers


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## getliquid (Mar 2, 2014)

didnt read the whole thread, but it totally depend on what your hobbies are, some ppl like to have all new gadgets, some like to buy ton of clothes, some are into cars.

Both earning 100K
one can drive a new BMW but dont travel much or live in a townhouse
vs
one who drives a civic but travel internationally and live in a single house...

totally depend on your priorities


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

getliquid said:


> didnt read the whole thread, but it totally depend on what your hobbies are, some ppl like to have all new gadgets, some like to buy ton of clothes, some are into cars.
> 
> Both earning 100K
> one can drive a new BMW but dont travel much or live in a townhouse
> ...


You present them as equal but I see guy #2 as being far smarter financially. The guy in the civic puts his money towards appreciating assets.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

james4beach said:


> So next time you're in a Uber driver's BMW, think of how the driver is getting less than minimum wage and how his deceptive employer tricked him into buying/leasing a car. It sounds like you should stop using Uber, honestly.


An actual covert poll in NY of 11 Uber drivers showed an average gross wage of $31.61/hour. So I guess what ever an articles agenda is ...I guess if you buy a BMW to Uber 8 hours/week then ya the wage is low, try 60 hours/week like most people trying to get ahead work... and drive during hours that people require cabs .

But that doesn't make a good Huffington article...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

It's not just Huffington, I listed numerous sources including a recent article from the CBC.

Additionally, I've talked in person with drivers in Portland & Seattle, and the consensus I've heard is that Uber pays them a very low wage. This is despite the fact that drivers generally say positive things to bring in good reviews... and they still told me how bad their employer (Uber) was.


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## Earl (Apr 5, 2016)

Janus said:


> driving a Mercedes or a BMW, with expensive modifications, certainly a $60,000 to $80,000 car.


Is it possible you're just mistaking how new the car is? Some BMWs have not changed much in appearance and someone who is not a car guy can mistake a 10 year old one for a new one.

Here is a 2006 BMW 3 Series and a 2016 BMW 3 Series:


















A 2006 BMW 3 Series can be found for $4000: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/3+Series/Caledon+East/Ontario/5_26430644_20150225083345429/

I wonder how many people look at a car like that and think it's a 60k car just because it's a BMW.


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## Slim1950 (Apr 25, 2013)

I work with an Asian community in downtown Toronto. Many of the guys that I know are earning 6 figures, and their wives are earning as much in many cases. They are frugal with a lot of things. And they will live in a small condo, which is usually their first purchase, and many of them are mortgage free, because Mom and Dad helped them. Or they didn't marry till their mid-thirties, so they have sizeable savings by the time they get married. Eventually, they move to mid town or uptown, if they are expecting to raise a family. Some of them drive Beamers, but many of them don't have a car.

The only guy I know who drives for Uber is barely making ends meet. And he drives a Toyota Echo.


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