# My Friend's Start Up



## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

My friend and her friend have this start up they has been working on for a few years now and I finally got to see a nearly finished product today. The product line so far is limited to natural deodorants. A weird one, but the product is kind of neat. So far they only have feminine types but they are working on a product for men. It takes a while for them to nail down a recipe they like.

The company is called Routine and the website is up and I was wondering if anyone would care to have a look and share their thoughts. I'm not trying to advertise, but see what could be improved, yada, yada.

She was telling me that they had a pretty successful day at a an art type event a few months back and I guess Fashion magazine wants to interview them so it's exiting to see what might come of it. I'm just curious what everyone thinks.

I'm trying to help them out a little with ideas and such. I told them to check out Kickstarter to see if they could get some angel investor funds but Kickstarter is limited to the USA only. I think they are at the point where they need to really start pushing the product and get it into a few stores but they are going to need some cash to do that. It's pretty pricey right now as well, so they need to create some economies of scale to get the costs down, but at this time they mix it their lab. (an office, hehe)

Thanks.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I think it's great what they are doing, but I'll be critical, because criticism always helps.

Here are the negatives:

The site sucks. It's not a big deal, but the colours and the outlook are very plain and boring. I don't think the website really "Sells" the product. It seems very laid back and bland, as if there's nothing to be excited about. Some dark blacks, mixed with some light blues, pinks and greens is what I would probably go for. Either way, I'm not a marketer, nor a web site designer. Just my opinion.

Second, who's gonna buy this? Great product. But look how much you are getting for $18. It's $18 for 50ml. I can get a deodorant stick that is 74g (don't know the ml) for $0.99.

I get that it's like a healthy choice or something, but $18? That's expensive. What are their profit margins? 

The other question I have is how well does it work, say, when its 100F outside and you are jogging or sweating to death in a car? Does it sweat off?

Anyways. Good on them for getting something together. Kudos.

Let us know how it all works out for them.

EDIT:

Another thing that looks like it might be a pain in the *** is that it appears you have to rub the cream on your underarm with your hand/fingers. It would be a good idea to cross sell products and have brushes or "applicators" available to buy. This way a customer can apply the deodorant to the underarm or applicable area without actually getting the stuff on their hands. This would be useful in the mornings. Sell the applicator for $1 or $2. and make a small profit margin on that, as well.

And why don't they get into perfumes and colognes as well?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't mind the site that much, it is taking the earthy approach.

$18 is steep. Personally I would be interested in purchasing natural deodorants, but perhaps they should look into manufacturing in greater volumes or via a different method than they are currently using to reduce the manufacturing expense.

I would be curious to know what the profit on each single deodorant is.

I am sure the body shop is bombarded with pitches like this, I see it fitting in with their products. I can't see many people buying something like this at Walmart. Which is too bad, ridiculous volume there.

Same with KJ, is there an applicator, or would someone have to use their hands to rub the deodorant on?

It is like we are the preliminary Dragons Den hosts.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> I think it's great what they are doing, but I'll be critical, because criticism always helps.
> 
> The site sucks.


I couldn't even google it..well hidden. 




> Second, who's gonna buy this? Great product. But look how much you are getting for $18. It's $18 for 50ml. I can get a deodorant stick that is 74g (don't know the ml) for $0.99.


It's a niche product and there are lots out there these days. Some green mom
invented a reusable stainless steel device that you can rub under your
underarms during showering and claims for "19.95 it will take care of your odor problems all day. If it works..it would be tough to compete against..but there
is no patent on stainless steel which is not a unique product..hmmm
I got a some stainless steel..I might try that. 



> I get that it's like a healthy choice or something, but $18? That's expensive. What are their profit margins?
> 
> 
> The other question I have is how well does it work, say, when its 100F outside and you are jogging or sweating to death in a car? Does it sweat off?


at 100F, KJ, you will be sweating so much that your car will be all steamed up.
Maybe it's time not to be so cheap and get the A/C working? 



> *Another thing that looks like it might be a pain in the *** is that it appears you have to rub the cream on your underarm with your hand/fingers*.


Hmm?? probably should avoid rubbing it on in those areas?
Hopefully it's hypo-allergenic 

I hate to mimic Kevin O'L on DD..but at $18 retail, it's not going to generate
much interest in the mass marketing stores. Even if they can make it for 10c
a container and make 300% profit, they are still i a very tiny low volume retail segment at that price in any case and with women..they are very finicky when it comes to underarm deoderants.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

I suggest a more sporty types person as your model as they are more inclined to choose natural.

Generally, it's hard for commercial sites with black background to succeed. That needs to be changed. But I understand they probably just hired someone to make a flash page, which means the size is fixed and the contents can't change.

That is also a reason why google can't find your site. It's hard to make sense of flash pages from a bot's perspective.

Also, the page looks like **** in non flash or with script blockers on. There's no non flash version of the site. Which means you just turned away a major chunk of your potential visitors from apple.

The first page, the home, does not give descriptions on the product. You are a startup, not a brand name. You have about 10 seconds to tell your clients what it is. (edit: just found the small text saying it's aluminium free deodorant on my 3rd refresh) Why are unrelated pictures on the homepage? A car? A coffee press? Bathroom signs? The 1st click, at the first click through, only about 30% of the people do that. So, only 30% of the flash enabled eyeballs get to see what your product really is. 

Give the flash a frame and a background that is based on natural things. This is where you can convey the "au natural" feel, NOT on the landing page.
By the way, you should do the page in html, not flash. It's perfectly doable.

Otherwise, the flash is very nice.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

carverman said:


> at 100F, KJ, you will be sweating so much that your car will be all steamed up.
> Maybe it's time not to be so cheap and get the A/C working?


I took it out of the car for a reason 

Quite comical and ironic, though. My Summer Car has no A/C, and my Winter Truck has no Heat. 

I guess that explains why people are always amazed that I never wear a coat in winter. I think my body has adapted to temperatures of all kinds, especially working in a restaurant where you are inside a freezer and then over a grill the next minute.

I'll tell you, though, deodorant would sell in a kitchen! 

The website is an issue, though. You are right. Can't even find it on google.

Even with my website that's not finished or popular, you can find it on google by searching key words like "Kaejs Productions", "fixed on finance" or even just "kaejs" (although, when I search kaejs, my twitter and other stuff show up first. My website shows up 6th). 

Why wouldn't they want their website to show up? The website has a shopping cart....


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

Wow, thanks for the replies guys. I can't really respond because it's not my company, but I'm going to pass on what you've all said. I have a few areas I can touch on...

My friend is very artsy and you can see it in the web page pictures, but like you said, they don't really make much sense. 
I think they make about $5 off one product but the $18 price tag is to cover a bit of the shipping. It's a bit less if picked up. I too agree its too expensive. I think around $12 would be okay if sold in a bodyshop type store. It's supposedly a 3-6 months supply. 
They made the website themselves which I think is impressive, but I'll mention the issues that were pointed out. They need some serious search engine optimization. 

About the applicator, my gf brought it up and they rambled on about bacteria, etc., etc., and how it's not really good to use a roll on type. You are supposed to apply it with your fingers which I wasn't really down with. They way they explained it was that girls often shower and then apply their creams and lotions and other things that make them all nice and soft and they just add in the deodorant at the end. My gf was down after their spiel and it kinda made sense that you don't cross contaminate the fresh product. I'll mention the applicator issue. 

Thanks for the criticism so far and keep it coming!


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

jcgd said:


> I think they make about $5 off one product but the $18 price tag is to cover a bit of the shipping. It's a bit less if picked up. I too agree its too expensive. I think around $12 would be okay if sold in a bodyshop type store. It's supposedly a 3-6 months supply.


Wait. They only make $5 off each sale?

That's a 28% profit margin.

Which means, at $12, it would actually be $1 cash flow negative per item.

The costs to produce are too high and this makes the cost of the product too high. They need to find out how they can produce this product for $6 each (about half price) and sell it for $10 on a 40% profit margin with higher sales due to lower cost at the end consumer. At $10 each, a consumer would be more likely to buy 2, anyway (different scents), which would actually bring in $8 of profit for the company at about the same cost to the end consumer, no? 

And also, is the $5 profit based on product alone and not including overhead and other factors? Because then there's overhead costs (ie, website domain name, hosting, etc). That costs money in itself (albeit not very much, it all adds up).


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Yeah,

Please remove anything that sounds remotely harsh. I like Startups. I am all for startups and disruptive products. But the rollercoaster ride can do without the negative criticism.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I like how they use glass jars to save the environment and they mention the fact that they can be re-used.

However, I wonder if this is why the costs to produce this product are as high as they are...

If that's the case, then it's a tough call. They want to be enviro-friendly, so plastics aren't the way they want to go. At the same time, I'm sure glass is more expensive and they'd be able to cut costs by switching to a plastic container (which could also be re-used). I don't think plastic fits their MO, though. 

EDIT:

Also, under the "neige and pippa" page, the last paragraph has a typo. it says "routne" instead of "routine".


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

Oh yeah, for sure. I like to hear it cut and dry but I'm not going to make them feel shitty about anything, just state the facts. You can't google it... you have to search for a product discription, and so on.

I really appreciate the feedback so far. Just what exactly is the issue with a black background? Assuming the design and presentation is acceptable, is there an issue with a dark blackground?


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> I like how they use glass jars to save the environment and they mention the fact that they can be re-used.
> 
> However, I wonder if this is why the costs to produce this product are as high as they are...
> 
> ...


Yeah the bottles are a buck each and the stickers $.25 each. So $1.50 per product just for the packaging. This is something I assume would be a bit cheaper if they could use more than a couple dozen at a time. If they were buying a few thousand at a time maybe the cost will come down? Plastic is something they are firmly against so I'm sure it's not up for discussion. Not good for costs though. They also mention no extra packaging so I think they better come up with something good if they need to eventually pack product in cases. If they promote the lack of wasteful boxes they should be creative with whatever they do use and it has to fit their MO.

The spelling error is noted. I think there are a couple changes that should be made.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

jcgd said:


> Yeah the bottles are a buck each and the stickers $.25 each. So $1.50 per product just for the packaging.


Oh, wow. That's it? That's a lot cheaper than I thought.

So most of the expense is actually in the product itself. I guess the ingredients they are using are expensive. $1.00 for the jar isn't going to make or break anything.

Now, you say $1.50 per product, and each sticker is $.25, so does that mean they also place a sticker on the bottom of the jar? If it were my start up, I would just not bother with the sticker on the bottom if that's the case. I know its only 25 cents, but it adds up... Won't make a difference to the consumer.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

I dunno man. The bottom sticker has the ingredients and other small print stuff. I kinda think it makes it look legit. The brand sticker is simple but not really informative at all so I'm not sure how it would go over.

The ingredient are all bought from BC and I think they are rather pricey. Clays, essential oil scents or some crap and all the other binders and such. I know this doesn't mean much but it looks expensive. I also don't know if the materials like buckets, mixing tools and that are priced in. For the small volume they have so far that could really push up the cost. I'll have to ask some more questions.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I think if i were them i would try to focus on getting bought out or align myself with the bigger competition,is this truly something that has legs?(with them marketing/distribution/sales ect...daunting task once the honeymoon of a start-up goes)I would spend my time trying to sell the product to the likes of the body shop and similar stores and health/organic stores.I like how there product is based on the "personal touch" with the photos of them ect-however they seem alittle off the mark with there branding slightly-there abit all over the map with how they display the product-the bird?what is the birds msg?(imo)it looks almost to "relaxed" and abit to "playfull" with the photos of them(id leave out the goofy/funny body language stuff pose,and family photos,i feel like im viewing there personal facebook or something,there centering there product on them and there lifestyle not so much about what there selling-but then again that might be the perfect platform?-need abit of polishing?too downhome?)Id hire a professional ad agency to make sure there going the right way with marketing(at the very least)....and id focus on the big boys picking up my product and doing the selling instead of bootstrapping it to jan/john doe-looks like they have something very legit!They also look like they are having a good time and enjoying there start-up..very cool.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

jcgd said:


> I dunno man. The bottom sticker has the ingredients and other small print stuff. I kinda think it makes it look legit. The brand sticker is simple but not really informative at all so I'm not sure how it would go over.


Understood. You need that bottom sticker.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Wait.
> 
> *The costs to produce are too high and this makes the cost of the product too high*.
> 
> ...


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

carverman said:


> KaeJS said:
> 
> 
> > Wait.
> ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> Now, you say $1.50 per product, and each sticker is $.25, so does that mean they also place a sticker on the bottom of the jar? If it were my start up, *I would just not bother with the sticker on the bottom if that's the case. I know its only 25 cents, but it adds up...* Won't make a difference to the consumer.


Not entirely sure on cosmetic products, but I believe a sticker is necessary to state whether ingredients used are hypo-allergenic or not. Some people are allergic to certain things even if applied topically.

I can't wear any roll-on with aluminum chlorohydrate, because my skin reacts with itchy rash almost immediately. 
That limits what I can use to Gillette Right Guard basically. 
I prefer a spray because I don't like dipping into a jar to spread cream all over my parts..
but then I'm not a woman, and I don't care about being /feeling "kissing soft" afterwards either. 

As a man, I don't mind paying around $5 for a deodorant, but never mind my financial predicament, I would never spend $18 on a couple ounces of cream deodorant, or any other cosmetics..which women do, btw.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> carverman said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you. That's actually a huge compliment.
> ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Causalien said:


> Yeah,
> 
> Please remove anything that sounds remotely harsh. I like Startups. I am all for startups and disruptive products. But the rollercoaster ride can do without the negative criticism.


I thought the OP asked us for an opinion? 

Startups do have to start up and even in a niche market, it can be tough slugging to get retailers (like the Body Shop
for example) to stock it, but in time, if the product catches on, it might be fairly sucessful..but that can be a 
long road too. Online sales is another matter, and todays smart eco conscious consumer will think twice sometimes
before ordering. I buy from an online wellness site that has a excellent web site and free shipping because
there is no way I would order a $5-$10-$20 worth of product and have to pay $20 for shipping for minimum
quantities.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

carverman said:


> Not entirely sure on cosmetic products, but I believe a sticker is necessary to state whether ingredients used are hypo-allergenic or not. Some people are allergic to certain things even if applied topically.


Good point. I hadn't even thought of that.


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## mind_business (Sep 24, 2011)

The product is way too expensive. Enviro-friendly will sell for higher costs, but not 4 - 5 times. I would try hard to get the costs down, and reduce margins to get it into a more competitive price-point.

The only way I see a product like this taking off, at its current price-point, is to somehow make it 'hip', and very quickly. You'd need some serious celebrity endorsements, or something similar to get the word out. Even still ... $18 

I'm not a big fan of the website. I like the wooden board background, but I don't get how the artwork (old cars, TV, phone, etc) has to do with the product ... or the lifestyle they're trying to sell to???

I do like how the actual product looks, and the general concept of all-natural products, but it kinda creeps me out to have to apply it with fingers.


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## mind_business (Sep 24, 2011)

My wife's comments:

1) Homepage - doesn't know what they're selling, unless she reads the text. Should have a graphic pertaining to the product. Current graphics are confusing. Looks like they're selling nostalgia???

2) 'About the Product' page - looks like a blog. Some people may like this. She didn't.

3) She's like that it's a simple, easy to navigate site.

4) She wouldn't pay $18 for a jar of deodorant, but she's also not concerned about the health-affects from breastfeeding.

Disclosure - We're 45 year old professional armchair critics


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## Mall Guy (Sep 14, 2011)

jcgd said:


> My friend is very artsy . . .
> 
> I think they make about $5 off one product but the $18 price tag is to cover a bit of the shipping.


I never like to criticize the artsy community . . . but OMG !

The price . . . $18.00 PLUS $8.99 shipping and handling . . . wow $27.00!!! Not sure about HST/GST.

About the website . . . they don't need the home page, the "about" page could take it's place, not sure why it's so important to mention that it's made "locally in Calgary" 3 times, "shop" needs to move up under "about" and all four product should be on one page. There needs to be some kind of description about the unique characteristics of each. The other pages "earth", "n & p" and "gallery" could be combined, to simplify and punch up the message. Is the website their primary distribution channel ? How many hits are they getting, and what are they using to drive traffic. I didn't see anywhere that said how it works or if it works, and what testing they actually did. 

I think they need some "out of the box" professional type advise . . . send samples to Chip Wilson, and see what he thinks. Or present it to an MBA marketing class at U of C for some other ideas. Not sure a website is the best method of selling this type of product.

They seem like nice people . . . but Keven O'L would be right to tell them they are in for a world of hurt!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Mall Guy said:


> The price . . . $18.00 PLUS $8.99 shipping and handling . . . wow $27.00!!! Not sure about HST/GST.


Depends on how they are incorporated and the rules as far as getting a tax number(s). 
If they sell out of province.then they don't collect the taxes for that province...not sure how any HST would be collected in
Ontario on a mail order basis for $18 as the post office would be responsible for collecting it, if it is sent through the mails.

Alberta only has one tax ..GST 5%, so I believe that would apply to any in province sales there, unless of course they don't have a GST licence to collect GST if they are under $30K of revenue per year.




> They seem like nice people . . . but Keven O'L would be right to tell them they are in for a world of hurt!


Well, maybe not..if they keep it as a "basement/small scale operation and mimimize the cost of production..maybe.
Doing any kind of volume requires a different approach, and if it costs them $1 for the glass jar and 25c a label..that
is already around 10% of the cost of the packaging.

As well, the shipping container has to be well designed with bubble pack so that if the post office drops the package, the jar is not going to break. 
The other concern is if the product can freeze...that can be a problem, when the box sits in an unheated transport or distribution truck at -15C temps in the winter.

So there are shipping costs involved to the manufacturer for packaging that they can't charge directly to the customer.

If the product raw ingredients are under $2, then at say $4..they may have a chance to make some money.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

Price is a big issue. It isn't fair to measure it against what a lot of us buy from the store for 1/8 the cost, but even measured against similar natural deodorants, it's still quite expensive.

The 9 Best Natural Deodorants has a breakdown of several similar products. They're around $15-$23 for 100mL, while this one is $18 for 50 mL, so basically twice the price even when compared against other natural deodorants.

And the website could use some work, especially that first page. Causalien's point about the Flash making the page extremely unfriendly for search engines should also be taken into consideration.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I was wondering where my parent's yellow phone went  I suggest they invest some money into the website and the product should be on the homepage not some trip down memory lane IMO .They should make some sample sizes and hit the gyms and give out some free trials with a cover with website url etc ,like the free perfume samples you get at the bay etc.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

These are all really good points and ideas. I agree with almost everything that has been said so far. 

The whole thing is in a really early stage so now is the time to implement all these idea and start getting some exposure now that they have a real product.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

This is just from my own observation. Black background has to do with web 1.0 before web design is commercialized. It used to be the design style associated with y2k. The more artsy and emo designers would use black background. 

Designers of today that caters to web 2.0 and big business uses lighter colored background. I am pretty sure there's a social reason for that, but color theory says that lighter colors will bring about more pleasant mood. It's easier to get depressed in a dark room. Also, it is easier on the eyes and contrasts better with most colors. Take red on white vs red on black for example. One is ok when mixed correctly, the other one just burns your retina.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Is she already on Etsy? I can't find it under routine cream or kaolin products

http://www.etsy.com/search/handmade?search_submit=&q=kaolin&view_type=gallery&ship_to=US

This site has a lot of traffic and good for selling niche products. She can also become a seller on Amazon. If you want retail distribution it will definitely get more expensive though. PuurBody seems to already sell some kaolin deodorant here for $7 plus $2 shipping.

Awesome idea though, if you can cut the cost in half somehow it's a great way to print money. I like the website too, except it is better not to use flash, it may be worth learning HTML5/CSS/JS to reduce website costs and do more advanced things later.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

The website is just awful. Delete it and start over.

They should try to create a plain site that is clear and simple. If the business is a success they can pay for something that looks fancier.

Regarding price - don't listen to anyone in here about price points. We are a bunch of cheapskates who wouldn't buy that product if we were billionaires.

They should experiment with different prices (even selling at a loss) and find out what price they can sell the product at. Then they have to figure out how they can produce the product cheaply enough to make some profit.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Etsy is a no-brainer for this product. 

I am 100% in their target market - I buy "natural" cosmetics and body care products, and I really spend a huge amount on this product category (it is one area in which I am really *not* frugal). I have lots of very specific comments - I'd be happy to provide it in another format (instead of typing it all out here).


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## RoR (Jan 18, 2012)

I just put on my homehade handcream I bought off Etsy from someone is Brantford, or Burlington? I forget. 

I have not looked at the site, but my first thought is there are recipes for making your own all over pinterest and the net. More earthy Mama places that host workshops, will often host a make your own deoderant one. It's on my list of things to do. 

I buy stuff from here too: their deoderant is 7.99 http://www.fromthemeadow.com/index.htm


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I am going to say that I am leery of "natural" deodorants and the existing site didn't do much (really, anything) to convince me I should switch. 

It was stated and implied that "natural is better" and "non-natural is bad" but I didn't see anything compelling to support that POV. 

Additionally, the lack of testimonials means that I don't even have a sense of how people think this product works. 

This is a product which MUST work in order for me to try it. It isn't like handcream that either moisturizes well or not so much - it must stop odor in order for me to feel confident in professional settings (and at the gym).


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