# any "vintage" car owners out there?



## mrbizi (Dec 19, 2009)

Since this post is in the frugality section of this forum, you should know when I say vintage I mean *old* - we're talking Buicks not classic BMWs..

Please share the model/make of your old reliable, how many KMs driven, estimated ave. annual maintenance costs and how much longer you plan to keep your car. Also, share any tips on how you keep maintenance costs reasonably low without compromising safety.

I'll start:

1994 Toyota Corolla
290,000 km
Ave. Maintenance costs (repair and regular service) - Years 11-16: $1400/year
Car still runs great - I plan to keep this until I feel it is no longer safe to drive. Hopefully that will not happen until at least a couple more years.
Car is dealer maintained. The service reps and technicians in my local Toyota dealer are fairly honest (although I do a bit of research first before I approve any major repairs).

Thanks for sharing!


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

1999 Honda Civic, 257,000km. Bought it new from the dealer. To save a few $$$, I bought the stick shift version ($1000.00 less than the automatic). Didn't really have any experience driving a stick shift, but I learned quickly. 

Nothing major has had to be replaced. My repair history:
- Oil changes ever 5k
- New brakes every few years (Civics are know for going through front brakes quickly)
- A couple of mufflers
- Spark Plugs / Wires
- Fuel Pump.
- Exhaust manifold (replaced under an extended warranty from Honda)

And when it was 2-3 years old, had the front end completely rebuilt due to an accident (not my fault). 
- New Rad
- Hood
- Bumper
- Front Quarter Panel

VERY happy with the car overall. Reliable, but I think I'll be needing a new clutch soon. That might put the nail in the coffin for the thing.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

These are not vintage vehicles...now if you are talking 1970s muscle cars..
or cars even the 60s/50s..that's closer to vintage. 

I got a '98 Dodge Dakota. Bought it new. Runs great and cheap to maintain,
except it guzzles gas being a V8 fuel injected. Average maintenance cost
per year...about $300. Tires/brakes basically. It's got 110km on it.
Plan on keeping it as you don't get much for these trucks today $3K if
you are lucky. I getting a fuel saver/performance chip for it, that is
specifically programmed for it, so I hope that it will improve the gas mileage
by as much as 10%..as it's getting expensive to fill an empty tank these days.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

Xoron said:


> 1999 Honda Civic, 257,000km. Bought it new from the dealer. To save a few $$$, I bought the stick shift version ($1000.00 less than the automatic). Didn't really have any experience driving a stick shift, but I learned quickly.
> 
> Nothing major has had to be replaced. My repair history:
> - Oil changes ever 5k
> ...


Still on the original timing belt after 257k? If so, the timing belt could snap any minute and if it snaps your entire engine needs to be replaced.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

mrbizi said:


> Since this post is in the frugality section of this forum, you should know when I say vintage I mean *old* - we're talking Buicks not classic BMWs..
> 
> Please share the model/make of your old reliable, how many KMs driven, estimated ave. annual maintenance costs and how much longer you plan to keep your car. Also, share any tips on how you keep maintenance costs reasonably low without compromising safety.
> 
> ...


That's the worst example of a "vintage" vehicle I've ever seen. But since we're going to play.

1994 Chevy Suburban.
210,000 km.
Nothing beyond basic maintainance (plugs, wires,brakes, fluid changes)

1995 Buick Riviera.
288,000 km. Huge expenses, new almost everything. Still runs like hammered $hit

I aim for 300,000 km on all my cars. 


And now, an actual classic car:

1971 Buick Riviera.
miles unknown. odometer reads 60 thousand miles.

It's my baby, and after paint and body, it's just basic work. Probably $300 a year.

I do almost all my own work, so it's fairly inexpensive.

you folks do need to update your definition of "vintage" though.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

Sherlock said:


> Still on the original timing belt after 257k? If so, the timing belt could snap any minute and if it snaps your entire engine needs to be replaced.


I've had the timing belt replaced a few times. Forgot to mention that in my original post.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I drove my 1990 Honda Civic wagon for 402,000 km before I sold it to a family who drove it for another 160,000 km and they sold it on to someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if it's still on the road, although the body has probably rusted out by now. This was the RealTime 4WD wagon/hatchback with an ultra-low first gear; I once used it to pull a Jeep Cherokee out of a ditch. I wish Honda still made these; they were great cars.

I went through a vintage Land-Rover phase in my late 20s/early 30s -- my father gave me his old Series III short-wheelbase Land-Rover and I spent an entire summer working on it, replacing a lot of parts that had rusted out or were malfunctioning. I got it up and running and drove it to my brother's house, pulled in the driveway and stepped on the brakes but nothing happened. The brake lines had rusted out, and the pressure of stepping on the brakes caused all the brake fluid to leak out. Fortunately the emergency brake work and I stopped about 2 inches from the back of my brother's truck.

A few years later I bought a Series IIa, which only had synchromesh between third and fourth gears; you had to double-clutch the other gears. That vehicle proved just as unreliable as my first one and it cured me of my Land-Rover fantasies forever.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

These are not Vintage cars, they are not even old cars, Vintage Cars start at model T's and probably end in the 50's, then with the 60's you get collector cars, from the 80's on you just get Used Vehicles.


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## Xoron (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> These are not Vintage cars, they are not even old cars, Vintage Cars start at model T's and probably end in the 50's, then with the 60's you get collector cars, from the 80's on you just get Used Vehicles.


We should have the title on the thread changed from vintage to frugal


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## mrbizi (Dec 19, 2009)

Xoron said:


> We should have the title on the thread changed from vintage to frugal


Absolutely - frugal...high-mileage...beater cars...this post is in the frugality section after all.

I used the word vintage just to use a bit of irony


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

What is it with Guys and Cars?

My neighbours, all mid 60's, are suddenly buying Corvettes, My Friend found the first car he owned , abandoned in a Farmer's field, bought it for $10 then spent over $25,000 restoring it, my neighbour just spent over $20,000 restoring his Trans Am. Men and Boys, the price of their toys.

My Son, bought a Crossfire with some special features, trucked it from Texas to Buffalo, took a bus to Buffalo to pick it up, rarely driven but washed and cleaned frequently.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I had a 1981 Chevrolet Camaro with over 400,000 km on the original engine. Pretty reliable car. I drove it for six years, but upkeep was becoming a major issue. I probably spent $800 a year on average, but if I were to keep it much longer would have been looking at a new engine among other things.

I sold the Camaro in 2008, I'm now driving a 1998 Pontiac Sunfire with 186,000 km on it. Pretty reliable and parts are cheap. It's the newest vehicle I have ever owned. I'll probably get another year or so out of it before upgrading to something from this millenium.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

I tend to buy 3-4 yr old cars for around $18-20k, drive them for about 4-5 years, then replace them with another 4 year old car. I usually buy entry level luxury cars (Acura, Lexus and Infiniti are my favorite makes). They usually depreciate by about 50% or 10k in the time I own them, and usually need very little maintenance or repairs. This allows me to drive relatively modern reliable and powerful cars for about 2k a year. I couldn't drive some old jalopy, I need to be reasonably sure I'm not gonna break down somewhere. Also couldn't drive an economy car, I want something which when I floor it really goes. Currently driving an Acura TL which has 270 hp and goes 0-100 in 6 seconds flat. It cost me less than a new compact, and other than fluid changes, a new air filter, and new brake pads has needed no maintenance. I'd say it's averaged around $200/yr in maintenance since I bought it. I've found it's important to find a trusted mechanic who specializes in your car's make, because if you go to the dealership for every little thing it'll cost a lot.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Sherlock said:


> Currently driving an Acura TL which has 270 hp and goes 0-100 in 6 seconds flat.


A standard Toyota Yaris takes only 3 seconds longer to go from 0-100. Economy cars can be pretty responsive.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

brad said:


> A standard Toyota Yaris takes only 3 seconds longer to go from 0-100. Economy cars can be pretty responsive.


LOL @ "only" 3 seconds. 3 seconds is a loooooong time. And it's not just 0-100, what about if you're already going 100 and floor it, a yaris would take forever to get up to 130 while a powerful car could do it quickly.

Congrats on 1000th post.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

With all due respect: It would be hard to imagine a more boring thread


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## mrbizi (Dec 19, 2009)

Sherlock said:


> I tend to buy 3-4 yr old cars for around $18-20k, drive them for about 4-5 years, then replace them with another 4 year old car. I usually buy entry level luxury cars (Acura, Lexus and Infiniti are my favorite makes). They usually depreciate by about 50% or 10k in the time I own them, and usually need very little maintenance or repairs. This allows me to drive relatively modern reliable and powerful cars for about 2k a year. I couldn't drive some old jalopy, I need to be reasonably sure I'm not gonna break down somewhere. Also couldn't drive an economy car, I want something which when I floor it really goes. Currently driving an Acura TL which has 270 hp and goes 0-100 in 6 seconds flat. It cost me less than a new compact, and other than fluid changes, a new air filter, and new brake pads has needed no maintenance. I'd say it's averaged around $200/yr in maintenance since I bought it. I've found it's important to find a trusted mechanic who specializes in your car's make, because if you go to the dealership for every little thing it'll cost a lot.


Interesting strategy. I tend to buy (new) and hold (for 10+ years) my cars, but I might try this with my next purchase. Does it make a difference if you buy dealer "certified" used cars?


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## mrbizi (Dec 19, 2009)

Square Root said:


> With all due respect: It would be hard to imagine a more boring thread


Perhaps to you, but for guys with some testosterone left, albeit prefer to be frugal even in this area, this is quite interesting! 

Besides, for many households, auto expenses are probably the fourth or fifth largest expense category (following taxes, housing, food and (for some) childcare/education expenses).


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## LBCfan (Jan 13, 2011)

I thought this thread had promise until I read it. I sincerely hope I've been dead for a lot of years when a 1994 Corolla becomes a Vintage Car (not the same as "vintage" car in the thread title).

I have a couple of 50's and 60's British sports cars that I consider Vintage. Oh well, I doubt that this is the thread I hoped it was. Enjoy.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> These are not Vintage cars, they are not even old cars, Vintage Cars start at model T's and probably end in the 50's, then with the 60's you get collector cars, from the 80's on you just get Used Vehicles.


What they are calling "vintage" is modern "junk". 
Vehicles that are mass produced and meant to be obsolete as soon as
you manage to pay them off. Because of high labour costs (and McGinty's
HST), pretty much most of them end up on the scrap heap or in the crusher.

Drained off their fluids, like a cadaver on a embalmer's table, they are a 
testament to modern society's dependence on oil. :-(

Now...true vintage as you say, are cars made pre WWII. and some into
the 50s, but even those are questionable. My first car was a '53 Mercury
Meteor two door, which was the badge engineered Ford of the same year. 
It had a flat head V8..that was a the original Ford design before they
came out with overhead valves. 

It was a mediocre Ford.... leaning towards disposable junk car, but as a young
driver at 16, I didn't care. The door locks were very poor quality and
the floor had rusted out in spots, so when I drove over the dusty gravel
country roads, dust would permeate the car from the floor boards and
when you went around corners you had to hold on to the driver's side 
door from flying out on you, and the same with the front seat passenger.

I got rid of that junker, and got a 56 Chevy Biscayne..another junker with
a straight six and ugly 50s engineering. It was cheap to buy second hand
$150 and cheap to maintain, as you couldn't hardly get any speed of this
cursed thing.

I was without a car for a few years, choosing motorcycles (Triumph Bonneville 650), but in 1970, I got a brand new Mustang 351 Mach 1.
Now that was a classic car! It was all speed and beautiful plush interior.
I called it my "shagging wagon" cuz the girls I dated..well..just couldn't
resist the 4 speaker stereo and the sporty look.

I moved to Toronto and sold it because of the gas consumption. It had
a 4 barrel carb and loved to suck back the gas at 50-60cents a GALLON
back then...sigh! Even though gas is now closer to $5 a gallon, I sure
wish I would have kept it and stored it over the years. 

I got a few speeding tickets with it though, and paid out considerable speeding fines, so that, other than gas consumption, that was probably some of my biggerst "maintenance costs" on it. 

I remember one time taking it out on the 401 and with no cars (or cops)
around..it was pedal to the metal..to see what the top speed was..
the speedo registered 130MPH and the top speed on the speedo was 140!

How times have changed..now if you get caught doing those speeds, they
pull your licence and impound the car!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

LBCfan said:


> I thought this thread had promise until I read it. I sincerely hope I've been dead for a lot of years when a 1994 Corolla becomes a Vintage Car (not the same as "vintage" car in the thread title).
> 
> I have a couple of 50's and 60's British sports cars that I consider Vintage. Oh well, I doubt that this is the thread I hoped it was. Enjoy.


Hey! C,mon back!
I remember the MGs, the Austin Healeys, the Triumph
Spitfire..and some other sports cars from back then. What did you have?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mrbizi said:


> Absolutely - frugal...high-mileage...beater cars...this post is in the frugality section after all.
> 
> I used the word vintage just to use a bit of irony


Recyled "iron-e"


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I had a '97 Accord for the passed 5+ years. I think I changed just about everything on it myself even just to upgrade, including the engine/tranny from a Japanese prelude (cheap because the Jap gov encourages people to buy new cars faster) This car was from before Honda American became American junk and Acura came in as overpriced-luxury cars based on true Honda's. It had over 300k kms and because of the work I put into it I gave it to my brother. It looked completely stock, but had all the performance and tech parts while still 7L/100km, cheap to insure, reliable and still looked new.

It was a good experience but new cars are impossible to work on imo. So my new strategy is as mentioned above: buy a 3-4 year old car and sell it after a few years. I've done this with rec vehicles with great success, something selling for more than I paid or a reasonable depreciation.

My new frugal vehicle, a vintage 06 BMW M3. For driving high speed runs on the autobahn and race track it is actually more economical/safe than building a track car. Show me a Prius that gets 10L/100km at 200kmh? It sucks back the gas in town, but I only actually use it if I need to haul all my gear to work for deployment. Otherwise I bike like the majority of the population here. Before I leave this place I'm buying a turbo-diesel to take home. After driving one it completely baffles me why all Canadians don't all drive turbo-diesels, hell they could even be AWD and get better MPG/performance in town. Torque is what you actually want in town = small turbo engine, diesel, or turbo-diesel!


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Okay carverman, here's one for you:










Nothing mass-produced about this baby!

(Not mine; it was owned by an acquaintance who restored it...I took this photo sometime in the late 1980s or early 90s).


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## KLR650 (Sep 12, 2010)

1994 VW Jetta turbo diesel
290,000 kms
Est. annual maint cost--$400

These cars are dead simple IMO and easy to work on. I perform all service myself. It ain't pretty to look at but gets 40+ mpg US reliably. I get it sprayed by Krown every year and have no plans to get rid of it. As for reliability, I trust it 100%...if there is a problem I can fix it pretty easily.

I installed a hitch on it and have a 4x7 utility trailer. That set-up is my "truck". I would like to drive a truck but can't justify one due to fuel costs plus many parts are more expensive than a typical car ie. tires, brakes, steering, suspension etc.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

brad, that looks like a Kit Car to me?

Barret- Jackson Auto Auctions, amazing what people will pay for a toy.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> What is it with Guys and Cars?


It's a guy thing..we just love machines..they can be a part of our soul.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> brad, that looks like a Kit Car to me?
> 
> Barret- Jackson Auto Auctions, amazing what people will pay for a toy.


Sorry Howard...no cigar for you 
...it looks like a type 57C Bugatti roadster..
with some modifications of course.. the wheels don't look original.

see original car in here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Type_57


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Before I leave this place I'm buying a turbo-diesel to take home. After driving one it completely baffles me why all Canadians don't all drive turbo-diesels, hell they could even be AWD and get better MPG/performance in town. Torque is what you actually want in town = small turbo engine, diesel, or turbo-diesel!


because the Big three don't make them, and they are pushing their products
at huge discounts with self financing to boot. The Germans (Jetta) are about
the only ones that offer one (I think), then there is the other subcompact
import (Mercedes Smart Car) a little compact, with a 3 cylinder diesel.
It gets better mileage than most 2 cylinder motorcycles that run on gas.

Detroit, rather than manufacture fuel efficient diesels, prefers to go the
electric route. I remember years ago, they produced a modified Olds gas
engine diesel..which developed all sorts of problems and they scrapped
it after one or two years. Same with the Caddy 4-6-8 V8...another
great idea before it's time and they scrapped that.
Now they just prefer to go head to head with the Japanese and Korean
imports..and it won't be long until China starts flooding the market
with cheap 4 cylinder disposable cars.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

carverman said:


> Sorry Howard...no cigar for you
> ...it looks like a type 57C Bugatti roadster..
> with some modifications of course.. the wheels don't look original.


Three points to Carver! You got it right.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

carverman said:


> because the Big three don't make them, and they are pushing their products
> at huge discounts with self financing to boot. The Germans (Jetta) are about
> the only ones that offer one (I think), then there is the other subcompact
> import (Mercedes Smart Car) a little compact, with a 3 cylinder diesel.
> It gets better mileage than most 2 cylinder motorcycles that run on gas.


Yes but I can chose just from a plethora of diesel's here. Pretty much +50% of autos here are diesel. the only downside I've found is that it's not smart for a short trip, but everyone here bike's for short trips. Anyways I might go 2.0T for that reason



KLR650 said:


> 1994 VW Jetta turbo diesel
> 290,000 kms
> Est. annual maint cost--$400
> 
> I installed a hitch on it and have a 4x7 utility trailer. That set-up is my "truck". I would like to drive a truck but can't justify one due to fuel costs plus many parts are more expensive than a typical car ie. tires, brakes, steering, suspension etc.


That's a nice setup, I also used a 4x7 trailer for my Accord. I hauled a Ski Doo out all the typical logging roads all the local trucks went. There was always the worry factor of having to get some friends pull me up a hill but it never happened I managed with "momentum". If I'd known that's what I'd be doing I would have bought a beater truck, but my friend with a brand new truck ended up selling at a loss with the current price of gas he couldn't take the monthly fuel cost anymore.

I looked at buying the new Jetta for awhile. I find it funny that VW had to cut costs just to make a profit, essentially make the Jetta worse instead of better. Just goes to show people want disposable cars, or fall for the marketing of "pretty" cars


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I find it funny that VW had to cut costs just to make a profit, essentially make the Jetta worse instead of better. Just goes to show people want disposable cars, or fall for the marketing of "pretty" cars


Yeah, if VW spent half the money on quality control that they spend on advertising, their cars would be worth buying. The reliability reviews in Consumer Reports etc. are dismal, as bad or worse than most American cars. Although I think the Passat is still made in Germany and gets generally good reviews.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes the electrical components seem to have horrid reliability, I have no experience with VW

The car itself is built solid and wind tested etc far more than the typical car built to look trendy for a cycle of 4 years. It's too bad they wouldn't keep building them in Germany, and contract some Japanese electronics.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I have a vintage minivan, it's a 2000 headed towards 300,000 kms. It's also headed to the big car park in the sky very soon. 

I got this van when my dad went to buy a new minivan and the dealer offered him $400 on the trade in. That's when he gave it to me. So I paid 0 for it. 

I've been driving this beast for 3-4 years now with no important problems. Important problems are stuff like it won't start or move forward. I'm also very tolerant of vehicle problems as a whole. But it's getting too much for even me now. 

The real death knell for this vehicle is that the transmission seals (expensive replacement) are leaking oil as fast as I can put it in at this point. The rest of the problems such as some weird electrical problem that explodes the front turn signals, a passenger side window that only occasionally rolls up erratically, rusting bottom of the doors I could tolerate because of my utter disinterest in anything car (except for motion) 

So while I'm on the subject if you have a cheap car with a few dings or that you've smoked in, or that's dirty and that you don't want to clean, or that you're going to get $400 at the dealer's for you should PM me. This is how I get my cars 

NB. The most I've ever paid for a car is about $1000 and I've been driving for years quite happily. 

I don't want a sports car, or an 8 cylinder gas guzzler, but if you're looking for a buyer for an old car with not too much mileage in sound mechanical condition with cosmetic problems, I'm your woman.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> I have a vintage minivan, it's a 2000 headed towards 300,000 kms. It's also headed to the big car park in the sky very soon.


Sorry "B"..but your mini is not "vintage"..it's a disposable modern "junker"

..not to be confused with the WWII German warplane-dive bomber "Junkers"
which is pronounced Yun-kers in Deutschland. 



> I got this van when my dad went to buy a new minivan and the dealer offered him $400 on the trade in. That's when he gave it to me. *So I paid 0* for it.


and thats about all they are worth after paying them off for 3-5 years...really.



> I've been driving this beast for 3-4 years now with no important problems. Important problems are stuff like it won't start or move forward. I'm also very tolerant of vehicle problems as a whole. But it's getting too much for even me now.


How can you stand that "B"? That would drive me nuts, being such a 
perfectionist about everything...I keep reminding myself that everyday
as soon as I wake up. 

You should kick "mini-me" to the curb..



> The real death knell for this vehicle is that the transmission seals (expensive replacement) are leaking oil as fast as I can put it in at this point.


You mean the transaxle seals? 



> The rest of the problems such as some weird electrical problem that explodes the front turn signals,


Dr Freud here..what exactly do you mean by "exploding"? Glass bulb shattering, or burning out the bulbs? There is an app (fix) for that.



> a passenger side window that only occasionally rolls up erratically,


Window regulator problem..



> rusting bottom of the doors I could tolerate because of my utter disinterest in anything car (except for motion)


yes..as the Neil Young album goes "Rust never sleeps"..but there WAS a fix
for that, but "it's too late now". 



> So while I'm on the subject if you have a cheap car with a few dings or that you've smoked in, or that's dirty and that you don't want to clean, or that you're going to get $400 at the dealer's for you should PM me. This is how I get my cars


Frugality in it's finest..I'm proud of you "B"...I certainly would not tolerate
an old junker that reeks of cigarette smoke..but if you are a smoker..then
it doesn't matter, I suppose. 



> *I don't want a sports car*, or an 8 cylinder gas guzzler, but if you're looking for a buyer for an old car with not too much mileage in sound mechanical condition with cosmetic problems, *I'm your woman*.


Aw! Why not..dontcha ever have the desire to be just a "little" bad?

100 frugal points -> "B" for recycling old junkers

150 points -> "B"; for looking cool in a sports car, with your long blonde hair
flowing back in the breeze with yer top down! 

200 points for having the gas/lunch/cookie jar money to drive a V8 gas guzzler... like a nice macho truck that you need a step stool to climb into.
But that come at a price though......

0 Frugality points for driving around in a pickup....
however..I drive a gas guzzlin' big V8 so I'ise yer man! 

Carve: Marriage proposal -> "B"


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## nadim (Jul 7, 2011)

*bmw*

I've owned many cars, 
86 celica, 88 celica, 88 cutlass, 91 jetta, 

most were from kijiji for under $500, the mufflers were usually going, leaking oil, etc. they were alright but due to a combination of factors my 86 celica with the faulty master brake cylinder that wouldn't lock up your brakes, only braked as fast as you could pump until the end when it submarined a stalled car on a live lane on the 404 north before the steeles exit. 

I should have tried the grinding construction barrier that would have left an exit but I was tailgating and the suv in front suddenly changed lanes without braking and I was 20 metres away going 100 km. I had no time to think just panic stop so it nosedived and slide under the bumper and all my crap from the back seat flew down and my amps ripped from their screws with just the wires hanging from them. it was pretty epic and hasn't effected my insurance that much. good waste of a $200 car that I would have driven another 10 years.

Since then 2003, I've owned a 1994 bmw 325is, the only thing that breaks is when you drive them hard and all the suspension and front-end


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Stutz Collector Miller
Like finding buried treasure!


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