# Over a Barrel



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The documentary is free till end of October...can be found here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPax7r7Kv2c&feature=youtu.be

Might be uncomfortable watch for many here on CMF but does lift the veil.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I think we need to send Greta the Great to personally deliver a punch in the nose to anyone who had anything to do with making that documentary. That'll larn 'em! How dare they, the contumelious swine!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It is a global conspiracy for sure, but personally I think Hillary Clinton or the Ukrainians are probably behind it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Who produced and funded this?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I love that word contumelious...thanks for adding it to my vocabulary


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Who produced and funded this?


An Edmonton filmmaker.
It was funded through crowdsourcing. 160K through indiegogo or whatever it was.

EDIT: Sorry, it was a GoFundMe drive. 1200 donors.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/fair-questions-documentary-film


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

What is it about? Can you give us a precis? I watched a bit, it seems like the kind of film where they take forever to come to the point.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

very old news, vivian krause has been around forever, always says the same thing.

but very slickly set forth in this video. This is propagando supremo.

had to have been paid for by the energy industry. Krause herself says 90% of her income comes from the energy industry.

does krause know which canadian icons those big bad american charities are going to destroy next? laura secord? john diefenbaker? the Peace Tower?


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> What is it about? Can you give us a precis? I watched a bit, it seems like the kind of film where they take forever to come to the point.



It does plod early and takes time to get to any point.Theres a lot of points, definitely took a lot of research to make ...almost 8 years but not a quick view. Wait till you're bored or have a lot of time to look it over. I myself am pretty nauseated over how we get played up here. Like I said, some CMF members won't give a **** about it...some might. 

Some will make up BS about it.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

.....oh jeez..... I watched til I heard "first nation"........


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> but very slickly set forth in this video. This is propagando supremo.
> 
> had to have been paid for by the energy industry. Krause herself says 90% of her income comes from the energy industry.


Obviously


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> had to have been paid for by the energy industry.



So typical...worry about where crowdfunding for the movie came from and not the movies message about who funded all the bizarre activism in BC & Alberta.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> but very slickly set forth in this video. This is propagando supremo.
> 
> had to have been paid for by the energy industry. Krause herself says 90% of her income comes from the energy industry.


Regardless of your subjective opinion about the 'film', can you objectively denounce with data any of the conclusions or theories put forth in it?


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

American and international oil companies have been gold plating their earnings with cheap Canadian oil and have every interest in locking out our ability to get it to world markets. Not every anti-pipeline group is funded by green agendas. Funny how the enemy of your enemy can be your friend, even if you hate each other.

American business 101: it's excellent strategy to lock in a dependent supplier and actively shut down their other options in order to improve your negotiating position as much as possible, to 100% if possible, and extract maximum cash gains. You might even bankrupt them. It's okay.

American business 201: when your suppliers go bankrupt, go in and buy up the pieces for pennies on the dollar, funded by the money you made from bankrupting them. That's a level 2 play. 

Haven't watched the documentary but I will take a look.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

That is the sort of thing I have been talking about for some time. It is in American oil interests to fund activism in Canada to keep supplies bottled up.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> very old news, vivian krause has been around forever, always says the same thing.
> 
> but very slickly set forth in this video. This is propagando supremo.
> 
> ...


It was slickly produced but lacking in content.

A conspiracy against Canadian oil ? Someone should tell Exxon or Shell..........LOL.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I spent a week at the new hotel "lodge" owned by a very small band of first nations featured at the start - it's unclear what exactly they are endorsing here if anything? There was no oil activity I was aware of anywhere near them, mostly logging/fishing/hunting etc. They got some of the largest forest fires last summer

The Americans direct a lot of clandestine foreign financial intervention in many ways. That came out eons ago with the Economic Hitman bestsellers and all the Alex Jones type underground internet shows. Billions in big oil lobbying also successfully manipulate environmental policies, even though evidence shows the economic benefits of such policies outweigh the cost

News soundbite on American radio during my commute claims the Keystone XL begins construction next year? Pipelines are more efficient and better for the environment than the alternative roads/rails so this makes sense. The delays obviously cost a lot of money and benefited Americans. The protesters left a lot of garbage and seem misguided.

It doesn't change the gloomy long term picture of a non renewable cyclical commodity that is increasingly unpopular and geographically challenged. It's unsustainable for the economy and the environment. Canada needs a long term plan for Alberta's oil workers - but that also goes for many others that will be impacted by automation etc



doctrine said:


> American business 101: it's excellent strategy to lock in a dependent supplier and actively shut down their other options in order to improve your negotiating position as much as possible, to 100% if possible, and extract maximum cash gains. You might even bankrupt them. It's okay.
> 
> American business 201: when your suppliers go bankrupt, go in and buy up the pieces for pennies on the dollar, funded by the money you made from bankrupting them. That's a level 2 play.


Sounds like they learned this from the Irvings, of Irving Oil, of the top 5 wealthiest families in Canada. They acquired almost everything east of Quebec exactly this way.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Alberta's unemployed oil workers should be employed closing the nearly 200,000 abandoned oil wells in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

When that mission is accomplished, they should be employed in the alternative energy field, where the installation jobs cannot be done offshore.

Installation of solar panels and wind turbines on every rooftop in Canada. Replacing old windows and installing better insulation would provide more jobs.

These are infrastructure projects with a long term vision.

There is no need to wait for the "next" employment sector to surface. It is already here.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> That is the sort of thing I have been talking about for some time. It is in American oil interests to fund activism in Canada to keep supplies bottled up.


Yes that's absolutely true. Now tell me in whose interest is it that we continue to use fossil fuels and increase Climate Change?

As Eder wrote, "So typical...worry about where crowdfunding for the movie came from and not the movies message about who funded all the bizarre activism in BC & Alberta.", intending to show how someone ignores the issue and goes off on another topic, so are you ignoring the issue and going off on another topic. Your topic is 'how Alberta's energy sector is being abused'. My topic is how our world is being abused. Which do you consider more important? I'm guessing you don't wanna discuss that though.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

nobleea said:


> An Edmonton filmmaker.
> It was funded through crowdsourcing. 160K through indiegogo or whatever it was.
> 
> EDIT: Sorry, it was a GoFundMe drive. 1200 donors.
> https://www.gofundme.com/f/fair-questions-documentary-film




there's a misunderstanding here. This donation page was set up long *after* the film was finished (eder tells us it was 8 years in the making). The producers originally wanted to charge $4.99 for viewing but agreed to offer the film for free for at least a month. Viewers are supposed to go to this GoFundMe page & make a donation.

as for funding the film, it's beyond naiive to imagine an expensive slick piece of supremo propagando like Over a Barrel could ever be created on a nothing budget of $175,000 plus change. Multi million $$ have gone into the making of this film.

you couldn't even edit this film for $175,000. As a quasi-professional photographer, noblea of all people should know this fact.

me i'm not stepping into this swamp; but if i were investigating who actually did pay for Over a Barrel, i'd start by considering Brett Wilson. The calgary billionnaire, former dragons' den host & well-known "soft" alberta separatist who called for opponents to an oil pipeline to be be hanged in public for treason.

hanged in public for treason. That's also how extreme rightwing alberta United We Roll truck drivers threatened Justin Trudeau early this year. One has to wonder how come albertans are so fond of public hanging.

even their obscene language is similar. Wilson's twitter account, along with the language of certain oil lobbying cmffers on here, is studded with eff.you.see.kays & ess.aitch.eye.tees. Then there's their edmonton friend ezra levant, editor of uber-right propaganda piece the Rebel & coiner of the term "ethical oil."

on the propaganda scale, Over a Barrel is a 10. What pushes it into hollywood oscar class is the fact that - like all gopd propaganda everywhere - it contains a few nuggets of truth. Go find em. But don't go fund em.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/bus...-cranks-up-heat-on-alberta-oil-sands-critics/


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Yes that's absolutely true. Now tell me in whose interest is it that we continue to use fossil fuels and increase Climate Change?
> 
> As Eder wrote, "So typical...worry about where crowdfunding for the movie came from and not the movies message about who funded all the bizarre activism in BC & Alberta.", intending to show how someone ignores the issue and goes off on another topic, so are you ignoring the issue and going off on another topic. Your topic is 'how Alberta's energy sector is being abused'. My topic is how our world is being abused. Which do you consider more important? I'm guessing you don't wanna discuss that though.


Like the War on Drugs and Prohibition, shutting down or focusing only on the supply side of the picture is extremely ineffective. World oil demand continues to grow and removing our supply from the equation will not abate that growth. If someone is addicted, true treatment focuses on the addiction, not the supply of the drug.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> there's a misunderstanding here. This donation page was set up long *after* the film was finished (eder tells us it was 8 years in the making).


8 years in the making does not mean it took 8 years to make the film.

I know many videographers. Producing something very slick and professional is not hard nor expensive these days. Especially a documentary.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

nobleea said:


> 8 years in the making does not mean it took 8 years to make the film.
> 
> I know many videographers. Producing something very slick and professional is not hard nor expensive these days. Especially a documentary.



you can't be serious. The producers couldn't even obtain the rights to a few of those stills for $175,000. That movie is multi $$ millions.

gotta hand it to em. Excellent job. Like all first-rate propaganda, there are nuggets of truth.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Wouldn't it make more sense to have all the climate change talks where the biggest pollution is and can have the most effect ? Then again, it wouldn't get off the ground there. Seems here it is just designed to reduce aggravation from Canadians, as we are relieved of more taxes. Pure propaganda in my opinion.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I guess it just too inconvenient to change your preconceived opinions even though all back up material to the movies claims are posted online. 
At any rate giving it out for free will encourage many with more open minds to see whats going on in Canada, and thats the point and the only reason I posted the link here.
Perhaps even the government may soon be forced to admit Canadians are being used.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> I spent a week at the new hotel "lodge" owned by a very small band of first nations featured at the start - it's unclear what exactly they are endorsing here if anything? There was no oil activity I was aware of anywhere near them, mostly logging/fishing/hunting etc. They got some of the largest forest fires last summer.




Ellis Ross, the Haisla elder & MLA from Skeena ^^ who narrates a good portion of Over a Barrel, says that pipeline builders offer employment to indigenous youth & therefore pipeline opponents are preventing the very jobs that young persons in outlying northern communities so desperately need.

it sounds good, but Ross is omitting the 2nd half of the story. Pipeline construction means temporary employment only. A few months, not more than 2 years. Once the project section is built the jobs will end. The local people will be right back to square one. No future.

what the federal government is offering indigenous communities who are pipeline stakeholders is something completely different. It's offering Jobs Plus. Not only temporary participation in pipeline construction but also permanent partnership, partial ownership, lifetime royalties. An opportunity to build a sustainable local economy. A future.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Userkare said:


> I don't get offended because it's a symptom of cognitiive dissonance disorder. You challenge someone's tightly held belief with irrefutable facts, and they double-down.


-or- attack the source of the facts.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Userkare said:


> -or- attack the source of the facts.


believe you're in the wrong thread here - you're linking to one of the Climate thingies


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I think you missed the part where indigenous would share in the pipeline equity as well as the export terminal etc. Our indigenous are thriving in Alberta...most are cashing in on preferred jobs,companies and equity positions to finance further affluence. 

The area surrounding Alberta’s oil sands is particularly rich with indigenous-owned businesses related to the natural resource industry there.
The average Canadian household income is $38,000 while the average Albertan’s is $50,000 while indigenous people in the natural resource industry and its spinoffs is on average, $73,500

Even during a major downturn in the oil industry, the Fort McKay First Nation in northern Alberta continues to find work for all of its residents wanting a job. It recently opened a $6-million arena and $9-million youth centre. The average household income is $120,000.

I guess giving that opportunity to other indigenous is not in Canada's interest....better to give them more hand outs & a few apologies.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> I think you missed the part where indigenous would share in the pipeline equity as well as the export terminal etc.


what terminal? the video was about Vivian Krause & her US charity research with its possible influence on canadians. There was brief generalized reference to northern gateway w lengthy discussion of white Spirit Bears; but i saw no discussion of indigenous ownership.





> Our indigenous are thriving in Alberta...most are cashing in on preferred jobs,companies and equity positions to finance further affluence.


sounds like wild raving hallucination! plus what's this about "our" indigenous in alberta when you've told us recently that you're living in the okanagan now? specifically in osoyoos, you have said





> The average Canadian household income is $38,000 while the average Albertan’s is $50,000 while indigenous people in the natural resource industry and its spinoffs is on average, $73,500
> 
> Even during a major downturn in the oil industry, the Fort McKay First Nation in northern Alberta continues to find work for all of its residents wanting a job ... The average household income is $120,000


do you have any source for these indigenous income figures? they sound preposterous to me. There are a few well-known first nation exceptions but the average story is nothing like your wild claims. 

should somebody tell Carolyn Bennett, minister for indigenous affairs, that she's out of a job because first nations are currently out-earning every other cultural group in canada?

meanwhile your primary source, Ellis Ross the Haisla elder who narrated much of the Over a Barrel video whose link you so kindly gave us, tells the video how indigenous nations are suffering today from extreme & crushing poverty. How he himself turned to addiction at the age of 14 because no future, no work, no hope.

specifically Ross stated in the video that this exact same situation of despair & poverty obtains today among indigenous nations, which is why he believes that only the energy industry with its related pipeline builds can alleviate the misery.

frankly i think your statements about widespread indigenous "affluence" are offensive fiction. Exactly like your made-up fiction that Husky had laid off "500" workers when the company itself said no such thing. There is no source for the "500" figure other than an extremist poster in cmf forum, namely yourself.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Google is your friend....https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/lng-fortmckay-wet-suwet-en-1.3803517
https://aptnnews.ca/2019/05/16/indi...iving-despite-being-canadas-best-kept-secret/

If you actually watch the video you will hear Ellis Ross say that the activists misled them into co operating with a promise of green jobs as a reward but were abandoned by the activists once our chief puppet killed Gateway.

Now apologize and quite making **** up (and no where did I say I was living in Osoyoos ...) I'll be in Pearl City on Tuesday...will I then be considered living there and be a Hawaiian? haha

Oh...and Husky did lay off ~500 ...from employees friends in Calgary. I guess the number is not public so believe what you will. At any rate calling my post offensive fiction should be reprimanded but we all know who does the moderation around here.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> Google is your friend....https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/lng-fortmckay-wet-suwet-en-1.3803517
> https://aptnnews.ca/2019/05/16/indi...iving-despite-being-canadas-best-kept-secret/
> 
> If you actually watch the video you will hear Ellis Ross say that the activists misled them into co operating with a promise of green jobs as a reward but were abandoned by the activists once our chief puppet killed Gateway.
> ...



exactly. Ross talks about jobs from the pipeline industry. I did not hear anything about indigenous ownership of the pipeline or of the terminal, which is what you were claiming above.

as for apologize, no one would expect a person like yourself to apologize for his filthy mouth. However perhaps you could try to learn to control it. Obscenity seems to be a thing w western separatists. But resonates badly in the ROC.

once again, what are your sources for those ultra-high-income levels you are claiming for indigenous households? there are exceptions; but to represent indigenous nations as financially much better off than all other canadians is preposterous lunacy imho.

as for Husky, you made that figure up. Citations of "friends" are meaningless. It is yourself who should be warned for posting false fiction. Bloomberg was extremely specific that they were getting a vague mention of "hundreds" of layoffs _as rumour only_.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eder said:


> Now apologize and quite making **** up (and no where did I say I was living in Osoyoos ...) I'll be in Pearl City on Tuesday...will I then be considered living there and be a Hawaiian? haha
> 
> Oh...and Husky did lay off ~500 ...from employees friends in Calgary. I guess the number is not public so believe what you will. At any rate calling my post offensive fiction should be reprimanded but we all know who does the moderation around here.


Not sure why you continue to punish yourself by not having HP on ignore. I am not even going to inquire what tangent she is on now...


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Not sure but HP does have an ax to grind, no idea why I would look for links to show how affluent many of our indigenous are yet. Even though it is her CBC writing the article . No idea why when I have a source in Husky that gave me the number of layoffs when it happened that there is argument...

Anyway I took your advice and put her on ignore as well...sheesh...theres only like 12 active posters left here and she works real hard to get that number down more lol.

Oh...and word is getting out...media starting to cover this stuff finally....https://business.financialpost.com/...american-interfering-in-the-canadian-election


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The income data for Fort McKay (or any FN) is easy to see on StatsCan (but a bit hard to interpret). They are definitely a high income community and developed that capacity (direct employment and businesses) over ~30 years or more. They were already doing well when I was 'working' with Chief Boucher in the late '90s and it only got much better after that when oil sands development 'exploded'. 

Fort McKay is a success story and a win-win for the oil sands operators because they much prefer to contract work with local communities and people that live right there anyway. Fort McKay got it right from early on, but I think it is (was) taking the other 4-5 First Naions communities in/around the Fort Mac area longer to get as engaged and involved. Commutes being challenging is/was one factor. The work is there for the taking if local residents want it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Eder said:


> Oh...and word is getting out...media starting to cover this stuff finally....https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...-should-become-a-household-name-across-canada


Starting to cover? That article is from January?

Maybe the Rockefellers planted Scheer too


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think the point is hopefully more people are becoming aware of the conspiracy against the oil sands, whether they are willing to accept it or not. The results of the Kenney inquiry may help legitimize that, or not. We can see the constant denials here from the likes of Sags and James with their irrational responses about anything oil or AB for that matter. And that is from supposedly intelligent people.

I think we will see more 'disclosure' and revealing of facts now that the election is over and there is no reason to be tagged with unsubstantiated 'manipulation' and 'interference' accusations. Hopefully, more cold hard facts going forward whatever they may be, for and against. 

Also looking forward to major pipeline spreads on TMX going into construction by next Spring. Looks like only one spread will be done this Fall/Winter, but at least most of the Burnaby Terminal work can continue through this winter.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

m3s said:


> Starting to cover? That article is from January?
> 
> Maybe the Rockefellers planted Scheer too



Sorry, wrong link...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> Anyway I took your advice and put her on ignore as well



putting people on ignore = last resort of the feeble-minded each:


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Feeble minded but a blessing for those on the ignore list............LOL.

All the lawsuits going forward to determine what the oil companies knew about oil damage to climate change will have more far reaching consequences than Kenney's partisan "inquiry".


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

sags said:


> Feeble minded but a blessing for those on the ignore list............LOL.
> 
> All the lawsuits going forward to determine what the oil companies knew about oil damage to climate change will have more far reaching consequences than Kenney's partisan "inquiry".


That's amusing. People who think a lawsuit is going to stop carbon emissions or climate change are wasting all of their time. You could sue Exxon Mobil for one hundred trillion dollars for destroying the earth and nothing will change. People burn oil, not Exxon Mobil.

But it's harder to make people change than to type up a lawsuit.

How are all those lawsuits against Transmountain going? About as good as the ones against Dakota Access? That pipeline sure got stopped by protests and lawsuits.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The point of the lawsuits isn't to shut down the industry. It is to recover the remediation costs for damage from climate change that municipalities are currently paying.

The effect would be annual payments to different levels of government for any climate change related damage. It could well be in the tens of billions of dollars per year with no end date.

Forcing polluters to pay for the damage from the pollution makes sense to most people.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Sags gets baited on anything that suits his bias. There is a lot of frivolous litigation out there... I've read some about this and it is weaker than a popcorn phart.

About the only real risk is a disgruntled EM shareholder suit who is looking to make a profit off short selling or whatever... on the premise that EM mislead shareholders somehow. Like the multinationals are going to stop producing what the global community has to have every minute of every day? 

Everyone already knows that burning fossil fuels contributes to air pollution. Just look at the smog over LA. And everyone knows combustion products contain CO2 which has been known to be a GHG for decades. Sue every consumer then since it is they that are responsible.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Sags gets baited on anything that suits his bias. There is a lot of frivolous litigation out there... I've read some about this and it is weaker than a popcorn phart.
> 
> About the only real risk is a disgruntled EM shareholder suit who is looking to make a profit off short selling or whatever... on the premise that EM mislead shareholders somehow. Like the multinationals are going to stop producing what the global community has to have every minute of every day?
> 
> Everyone already knows that burning fossil fuels contributes to air pollution. Just look at the smog over LA. And everyone knows combustion products contain CO2 which has been known to be a GHG for decades. Sue every consumer then since it is they that are responsible.



altaRed you know you're not supposed to be reading sags! don't be so naughty!!

get caught reading hubbity pie again & you'll have to be sent to your room w/out supper


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

doctrine said:


> How are all those lawsuits against Transmountain going? About as good as the ones against Dakota Access? That pipeline sure got stopped by protests and lawsuits.



how they're going is that protests bring on colossal delays & cost escalatios, not to speak of community disruptions & backward regressions. The worrisome focus nowadays is no longer TMP II, it should be enbridge dealing w protest in michigan.

this forum is hilarious. There are no pipeline opponents anywhere in the forum. It's the only place where friends of pipelines routinely attack other friends of pipelines. Like Don Quixote. Windmills.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

Eder said:


> The documentary is free till end of October...can be found here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPax7r7Kv2c&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Might be uncomfortable watch for many here on CMF but does lift the veil.


thanks for posting this.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> on the propaganda scale, Over a Barrel is a 10. What pushes it into hollywood oscar class is the fact that - like all gopd propaganda everywhere - it contains a few nuggets of truth. Go find em. But don't go fund em.
> 
> 
> /[/url]


Would you be specific enough to identify the nuggets of truth, and the areas of error? You have claimed this is propaganda, but it isn't clear to me from what you wrote what makes you think it is propaganda.

Interestingly, a friend of mine claimed her nephew got paid to protest the pipeline in BC and its very unclear who was paying him. Reportedly most of the protesters were paid, and many could care less about the issue. I was a bit dubious about that story, but this documentary ratifies it.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

vivian krause has been around for years & years. She's a has-been. Surely jason kenney's brand-new war room will have something better to put forward soon.

nearly a decade ago the globe & mail & other journos had already outed krause as propaganda mouthpiece for the O&G industry:



> In her December 7, 2010 testimony in front of the Canadian Parliamentary Committee on Natural Resources, Krause mentions her colleague Rob Scagel: “I would also like to acknowledge the much-appreciated contributions of my colleague, Rob Scagel.” [31] Rob Scagel, a well-known climate change denier, was affiliated with the now-defunct industry-funded astroturf organization Natural Resources Stewardship Project as an “Allied Expert.” Scagel is also listed as a co-signer on a letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper signed by 61 scientists denying climate change.[32]The letter was orchestrated by NRSP’s closely-affiliated ally, the “Friends of Science,” a front group that was "outed" by The Globe and Mail newspaper in August 2006 as being partly funded by the oil and gas industry.


https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Vivian_Krause#cite_ref-32


a few of the sources debunking kraus. Apparently - in the narwhal bibliograpy - there are even tax lawyers & chartered accountants debunking her "tax calculations."

not going into the swamp, personally seaking. But me i absolutely do expect monolithic US charitable mega foundations like Rockefeller foundation to straddle the planet, spreading their gospel everywhere. Bill Gates hasn't showed up yet but i suppose any moment the alberta minutemen could find him, lurking w the grizzlies in the foothills near canmore ...


https://thenarwhal.ca/topics/vivian-krause/

https://energi.media/deep-dives/debunked-vivian-krauses-tar-sands-campaign-conspiracy-narrative/

https://www.thestar.com/edmonton/20...er-at-business-communications-conference.html


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We make choices where we get our information.

I listen to the scientists. They are the only legitimate source of information.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The resident Oil Posse members flit around throwing out conspiracy theories and false information trying to muddle the issues.

The true information is readily available on legitimate scientific websites. People don't have to search the internet looking for support for oddball theories.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> altaRed you know you're not supposed to be reading sags! don't be so naughty!!


Looks to me like he read doctrine who quoted sags. Just like he'll see what you said, because I quoted you.


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> vivian krause has been around for years & years. She's a has-been. Surely jason kenney's brand-new war room will have something better to put forward soon.
> 
> nearly a decade ago the globe & mail & other journos had already outed krause as propaganda mouthpiece for the O&G industry:
> 
> ...


Ok. So the issue is who is funding the reality deniers, and she has been over emphasizing American sources. I'm appalled that these groups get multiple millions from Canadian government sources as well as some money from US foundations.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Pay attention to the scientists and you won't have to sort through paid propaganda.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> Pay attention to the scientists and you won't have to sort through paid propaganda.



sags i do believe that the issue of who-all is left that is still opposing TMP II is a political issue. It has nothing to do with science or scientists.

one of the most vehemently opposed indigenous nations to transMountain Pipe has been Tiny House Warriors. Here is a news story about their latest anti-TMP activity a few days ago. I don't know if i'll be able to load the video properly here, but it's embedded in the article (scroll down to the video that starts with the warning sign on the TMP construction zone fence)

one can see that Tiny House opposition has become weak & ineffectual. No one is going to support this kind of "action" on the part of Tiny House Warriors.


https://aptnnews.ca/2019/10/25/war-of-words-erupts-over-anti-pipeline-arrests/


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## Pluto (Sep 12, 2013)

sags said:


> Pay attention to the scientists and you won't have to sort through paid propaganda.


I paid attention to the scientists, in this case medical science, and some 35 years later found out I and you were lied to. I'm talking about the science that claimed a high fat diet caused heart attacks and strokes. turns out some 35 years later that a low fat diet did nothing to stop or reduce heart attacks and strokes. But worse, the original research never said fat in the diet was bad, except for trans fats. so we were lied to. 

Welcome to your new false religion: science.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Science is sometimes wrong and that is why it is ALWAYS necessary to critique and question science. What we know with something as complex as climate, is the current models for modeling climate change will be proven erroneous, albeit not necessarily directionally wrong.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Pluto said:


> I paid attention to the scientists, in this case medical science, and some 35 years later found out I and you were lied to. I'm talking about the science that claimed a high fat diet caused heart attacks and strokes. turns out some 35 years later that a low fat diet did nothing to stop or reduce heart attacks and strokes. But worse, the original research never said fat in the diet was bad, except for trans fats. so we were lied to.
> 
> Welcome to your new false religion: science.


I only ever remember science saying "eat balanced meals".


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

I have watched the documentary now. What an excellent piece of work. Canadians should be angry. If you follow media closely, this foreign influence is pretty obvious, but this documentary sheds some good light on small portion of it. That shot of the oil rigs off the Californian beaches is priceless.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

People are shocked there is foreign funding on both sides of the climate change issue ? I am shocked that people are shocked.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If science models failed on climate change, it is because they were too optimistic.

The negative effects of climate change are manifesting themselves much sooner than forecast.

Science was right on the direction, but wrong on the speed of change. The window of opportunity to change the outcome is closing.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yet another year that California is ablaze, and this may be the worst wildfire season in California history.

This will be the nature of climate change effects. A ceaseless barrage of catastrophic events that will overwhelm the response from governments.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> People are shocked there is foreign funding on both sides of the climate change issue ? I am shocked that people are shocked.


Who is shocked? However, I think if more people were aware of the massive discrepancy of funding on the alarmist side they would truly be shocked.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Yet another year that California is ablaze, and this may be the worst wildfire season in California history.


Who could have ever envisioned that decades of mismanaged power lines in a desert climate could lead to more forest fires?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Derailed Saskatchewan CP train leaked 4 times more oil than 2016 Husky pipeline spill.

________________________________

_"The Canadian Pacific Railway train that derailed in rural Saskatchewan earlier this week leaked more than four times the amount of oil spilled during the 2016 Husky Energy pipeline disaster in the same province. 

An estimated 1.5 million litres of crude leaked from the train, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) said Wednesday evening in its first major update on the derailment just after midnight on Monday."_

________________________________

I'm wondering if there isn't some sort of fixed structure that we could invent to transport oil more safely and efficiently across long distances? We could call it an oil pipeline, or something like that, rather than using trucks or trains to transport oil. 

Does anyone have any ideas?

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

That would be waaaaaaay too simple a solution. Maybe that train was actually headed to Levis? Even Quebecers would prefer to get their oil from Western Canada. https://globalnews.ca/news/4778368/quebec-oil-western-canada-leger-poll/


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

like_to_retire said:


> I'm wondering if there isn't some sort of fixed structure that we could invent to transport oil more safely and efficiently across long distances? We could call it an oil pipeline, or something like that, rather than using trucks or trains to transport oil.
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas?
> 
> ltr


Tesla semi-trucks? 

P.S. Why doesn't Tesla make trains???


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> P.S. Why doesn't Tesla make trains???


Get with the times man trains are last century

Elon Musk's Boring Company has been developing a hyperloop for about 5 years already. There are plans to transport/charge/autopilot Tesla vehicles long distances or past congested traffic etc

There is also Virgin Hyperloop One and Canadian TransPod.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> Get with the times man trains are last century
> 
> Elon Musk's Boring Company has been developing a hyperloop for about 5 years already. There are plans to transport/charge/autopilot Tesla vehicles long distances or past congested traffic etc
> 
> There is also Virgin Hyperloop One and Canadian TransPod.


lol ... so it's a pipeline for people!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

cainvest said:


> Tesla semi-trucks?
> 
> P.S. Why doesn't Tesla make trains???


On second thought ... why doesn't Tesla make their semi's run on rail tracks then they can switch to "road mode" at their destination.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

You mean like Elon Musk's tunnel transport system? There's already a test tunnel and concepts for LA


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Question about Musk's tunnels. How do you get permission from all those property owners to tunnel under their land? Legally when you own land, you own it all the way to the center of the earth. And how do they prevent damage to wells, buried electrical wires, telephone, sewer and water pipes etc?

If you ask me it's another one of Musk's scams or jokes. I don't believe there is any tunnel miles long under LA or anywhere else. Would be interesting to go look for the huge piles of soil dug out of the ground if these tunnels exist. A 12 foot diameter 1.14 mile tunnel would give you 680,410 cubic feet of dirt.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I don't believe there is any tunnel miles long under LA or anywhere else. Would be interesting to go look for the huge piles of soil dug out of the ground if these tunnels exist.


Huge piles of soil eh? Sounds familiar


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Question about Musk's tunnels. How do you get permission from all those property owners to tunnel under their land? Legally when you own land, you own it all the way to the center of the earth. And how do they prevent damage to wells, buried electrical wires, telephone, sewer and water pipes etc?


A nit but often surface land rights and sub-surface land rights can be separated. Depends on the methodology the crown used at the time, and whether original surface owners purchased sub-surface rights at the time. Most of Western Canada was settled with surface rights only. Believe most of the USA was the opposite, i.e. subsurface rights came with surface rights. The mining and O&G industries know that all too well.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Interesting photo......

Our niece drives one of those big trucks and earned $80,000 in salary and a $70,000 retention bonus years ago.

Now she earns a salary but no bonus. She bought a home in Fort Mac and then sold it when it hit the peak. She bought property in BC instead and rents in Fort Mac now.

She has already been told her job will be replaced by robotic trucks, so she is investing her money for her future somewhere else.

One economist covering the oil patch said even if the price of oil goes back up, many of those lost jobs are gone forever. The companies will replace them with technology.

It is a sad situation for workers and I hope the government steps up and provides some financial help until Alberta can shift their economy to something more dependable.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

sags said:


> Interesting photo......
> 
> Our niece drives one of those big trucks and earned $80,000 in salary and a $70,000 retention bonus years ago.
> 
> ...


Don't be the driver of the truck. Be the person that fixes it. Even if a computer is driving, it will still require maintenance and repair. And the computer will also require maintenance and repair. Lots of jobs and opportunity.


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