# Any guitar players?



## CrankIt (Dec 14, 2010)

Been playing off and on for a hobby for a couple years myself. Just found about these custom guitars with an adjustable neck from Riversong Guitars in Kamloops. They seem pretty cool and even wowed Blue Rodeo's Jim Cuddy: http://share.fpinnovators.com/lees-music.html


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Yes, they look cool, but there are so many custom luthiers and guitar makers these days, that you really have to have something unique to
be successful at it in a big way. The guitar designs have been tweaked as far as it can be these days, but I suppose there is always room
for some innovation, but even that's a tough challenge these days.


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## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

It'll all come down to how much do they cost and what do they sound like. A former student of mine had a "Rainsong" acoustic, completely made from some sort of composite resin material. It was expensive, it looked and felt like a wooden guitar but lacked something in the sound that the student missed enough she sold it on after a few months. This design they've come up with is promising though, after all, it was the neck-through-body design pioneered by Les Paul that pushed Gibson into one of the top spots in the solid body electric guitar field.


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

I suppose that's just a clunker, but the Lee guitar sounds rough around the 35 to 40 second mark in the vid. Whats that at 38 seconds?... lol

I can see how that neck adjustment _could _help someone set up the intonation. However, it could also throw it out of whack if it didn't lock well... another part that can go out of alignment seems like more problem than solution. 

Tough market- the Koreans make some really good and well priced acoustics.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

I think someone in Vancouver is carrying these but I haven't played one yet.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Jim9guitars said:


> It'll all come down to how much do they cost and what do they sound like.


Yes, that is my opinion as well. I have been playing and collecting guitars since 1966. I've owned mostly Epiphone/Takamine) since then, and electric archtops, as well as nylon string classicals.

Made three LP style guitars myself about 3 years ago, based on a 1959 Les Paul blueprint from Stewmac and cutting, planing, carving the top by hand. Mine are neck through designs.


> A former student of mine had a "Rainsong" acoustic, completely made from some sort of composite resin material. It was expensive, it looked and felt like a wooden guitar but lacked something in the sound that the student missed enough she sold it on after a few months.


I remember the Ovation steels string flat top with the resin bowl back (simliar to a mandolin back) that came out in the 70s. It was certainly an innovation of it's time, but in spite of the innovation to manufacture them faster and cheaper, they never really caught on. While the sound from the spruce top is not bad, the curvature of the back makes it very easy to slip off your knee if sitting down playing. 



> This design they've come up with is promising though, after all, it was the neck-through-body design pioneered by Les Paul that pushed Gibson into one of the top spots in the solid body electric guitar field.


The original guitar (the "20lb railroad tie") designed by Les Paul was a neck through. But Gibson back in the early 50s (Ted McCarty) and his team of factory woodworking experts actually designed the Les Paul that we know of today, and they decided to have a glue on neck, since Fender (Telecaster), (also called "the plank") had a bolt on neck, which was considered not acceptable by Gibson at that time.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hystat said:


> I suppose that's just a clunker, but the Lee guitar sounds rough around the 35 to 40 second mark in the vid. Whats that at 38 seconds?... lol
> 
> I can see how that neck adjustment _could _*help someone set up the intonation*. However, i*t could also throw it out of whack if it didn't lock well...* another part that can go out of alignment seems like more problem than solution.
> 
> Tough market- the Koreans make some really good and well priced acoustics.


Agree. From what I saw of the clip, it was more to do with the action, which will also affect the tuning, but having a general "adjustment" like a truss rod in the neck..or this set screw style of adjustment, still doesn't help when individual strings go out of standard pitch and need to be tuned separately. Maybe I missed something?

I think that they will always have a niche market, but a small one making guitars for certain individual. However, it was neat to see a what appears to be a BC spruce top and a quilted maple back/sides being stained blue for "Blue Rodeo". However, it would be interesting to compare this custom crafted guitar with a Martin D18, or a Gibson Hummingbird or a SJ200 to see how well it stands up as far as TONE.

In guitars, TONE is EVERYTHING...and the woods chosen and aged over the years make a big difference.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hystat said:


> Tough market- the Koreans make some really good and well priced acoustics.


The Koreans definitely make good and affordable guitars (they used to make Epiphone for Gibson, until Gibson built a factory in China to produce Epiphone), but as far as tone..they still don't measure up to the original American produced guitars that fetch a premium these days , and all the pros out there seem to prefer to play.


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## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

carverman said:


> I remember the Ovation steels string flat top with the resin bowl back (simliar to a mandolin back) that came out in the 70s. It was certainly an innovation of it's time, but in spite of the innovation to manufacture them faster and cheaper, they never really caught on. While the sound from the spruce top is not bad, the curvature of the back makes it very easy to slip off your knee if sitting down playing.


Some of my friends had Ovations, and while they sounded great plugged in, they didn't have the volume to be heard when used in an acoustic jam with real acoustic guitars. Consequently, they were seen as a great way to include acoustic guitar on stage, mostly played standing. The ones I played were well made as far as all the technical checkpoints are concerned(neck, intonation, string action etc...)


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Jim9guitars said:


> Some of my friends had Ovations, and while they sounded great plugged in, they didn't have the volume to be heard when used in an acoustic jam with real acoustic guitars. Consequently, they were seen as a great way to include acoustic guitar on stage, mostly played standing. The ones I played were well made as far as all the technical checkpoints are concerned(neck, intonation, string action etc...)


Agreed- I thought Ovations sounded a bit 'funky' (and not in a good way) when heard unplugged, but they were a great solution to onstage acoustic work at the time.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

The Ovations are..ok..tone wise, especially plugged in, but the composite black back just doesn't ring some of the guitar players "chimes". 
Glen Campbell used to play one. I think he was also endorsing them at the time. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovation_Guitar

It was designed by an aeronautical engineer and certainly you can say that it has some innovation in it.
Pretty much most of these are made either in Korea or China now.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok back to the OP..Riversong guitars.



> A We have spent about a $250,000 on labour and machinery, and that’s a conservative estimate. I spoke to our bank manager, and she set up an appointment with the Business Development Bank of Canada (BDC) to help.
> 
> Q What’s your monthly output now, and how will it grow?
> 
> A We developed the guitar in April, and we’re still working on the manufacturing facility. We have already expanded three times. We’re currently making 30 guitars a month. Retail store is a couple of million dollars, and the ultimate projection for the guitar company is millions. Some of our competitors are doing tens of millions now. I can’t do that in the first year, but that’s the possibility in the long term. In the first six months, it’s certainly catching up with the rest of the business. It’s the fastest growing segment.


30 guitars a month x 12 months is 360 guitars. Not sure if these are all custom orders (produced when a customer wants
one) but I would assume that some were made as samples for distribution dealers. 
CNC investment $250K
Retail store $1,000,000+
if they can get say $2000 for each guitar sold that's:
125+ guitars that need to be sold to pay off the CNC machine
and 500 guitars produced to pay for the million dollar store.
So lets say that it takes 700 guitars sold to break even
that's at least 2 years before they can begin to see any real profit

A custom luthier can make something as good, and he/she can't do that kind of volume in a year,
but with less overhead, they can turn a profit much faster on their production.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Here's Jim Cuddy playing a Martin D18....still the standard.. by which other acoustic guitars are judged by.
Hard to improve on near perfection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHbl2NaUxDI


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

No one is gonna pry that Martin out of Jim Cuddy's hands with an endorsement either. He probably has to play that Canadian guitar live for a song or two per night or something. Then he can go back to his old comfy.

I'm more of an electric guy myself, but I have a Takamine that just has a nice feel to it - something about the way it resonates against your ribcage. Then I have a Korean thin body acoustic that makes "ok" tones acoustically, but makes awesome sounds through an amp. I can't even remember the brand.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hystat said:


> I'm more of an electric guy myself, but I have a Takamine that just has a nice feel to it - something about the way it resonates against your ribcage. Then I have a Korean thin body acoustic that makes "ok" tones acoustically, but makes awesome sounds through an amp. I can't even remember the brand.


I have a Takamine Hirade Classic (nylon string) with a cool tube preamp and a cutaway. Guitar sounds great unplugged and even better plugged into
an acoustic amp.

Here's Riversong "dreadnought" for sale...
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/msd/3524936436.html

Stylistically, I don't the shape of the headstock or the straight pull strings. Part of the tone of any guitar is the headstock
angle, the nut and the bridge/saddle. I don't understand why anyone would want a 24fret (2 full octaves) anyway
on a dreadnought body without a cutaway? Most flattop players, if they want to change the pitch use a capo anyway.

However, from a technical point the "neck through" has some merit to support the portion of the fingerboard beyond where
the neck joins the body.


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## rian (Sep 18, 2012)

Interesting idea but there is a reason for the hollow body in an acoustic guitar and every time you put something in the body all guitar players know what happens to the sound.


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