# Another ice storm, this time in Montreal



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ice storms and power outages...two nasty combinations that make our Canadian winter unpredictable.
last year in December just before Christmas, it was southern Ontario and Toronto that got the worst of it.
This year, it was Montreal's turn this weekend.



> On Sunday, a dangerous mix of precipitation followed by freezing cold made for extremely slick road conditions.
> The weight of the ice that formed on trees caused many to snap, sending large branches down onto sidewalks, roads and power lines.
> At the height of the outages, more than 150,000 Quebecers were without electricity.


That *polar vortex *just doesn't go away.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Indeed. Mother Nature's wrath for taking advantage of her planet!

Ottawa is no picnic either but I think we've been spared the power outages so far, likely nothing like Montreal-area.

I can't believe how quickly things froze over in Ottawa. On Sunday afternoon, it was near freezing. I woke up this morning to -29 Deg. C. windchill.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

My Own Advisor said:


> Indeed. Mother Nature's wrath for taking advantage of her planet!
> 
> Ottawa is no picnic either but I think we've been spared the power outages so far, likely nothing like Montreal-area.
> 
> I can't believe how quickly things froze over in Ottawa. On Sunday afternoon, it was near freezing. I woke up this morning to -29 Deg. C. windchill.


 So far, we have been lucky in Ottawa, unlike the ice storm of January 1998 that wiped out a lot of trees and power lines in Eastern Ontario and Quebec. There was about a day or two of power outages in my area. one of the hydro line feeders had some poles snap due to the weight of the ice on the lines. 

I was without power for about 24hrs. However, the temperatures were near freezing, so the temp inside the house
got cool, but fortunately the water pipes didn't freeze.

I installed a gas fireplace upstairs that doesn't need electricity to run (well only the fan and it's on a thermal switch).
That is my backup heat source.

Last year after hearing about the misery of people experiencing power outages in Toronto,and in some cases succumbing to carbon monoxide when they were searching for alternate heat sources, I decided to investigate
other economical emergency heat sources. 
While portable gas generators can provide up to 3000 watts I believe, they are not something you can use every day, require storage and the fuel deteorates in the summer months, so it has to be refreshed perodically. 

I would have a hard time with my disability trying to refuel a generator outside in the middle of the night with just a flashlight too. 

I investigated using the double clay pot heater and candles trick. Set it up in the furnace room where my water pipes are...it worked! Had to change the candles every 4 hrs, but the 6 or 8 tea candles kept the room reasonably warm.

I can't believe that people would bringing in propane BBqs inside during a power outage in the winter though.
I guess they didn't have CO detectors..so some died and others were just lucky to recover when they did.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> While portable gas generators can provide up to 3000 watts I believe, they are not something you can use every day, require storage and the fuel deteorates in the summer months, so it has to be refreshed perodically.


Check out the small inverter generators, these would likely be enough to power a furnace or heater for a while and they idle down to save fuel when no load is on them. Also, look up Aspen fuel which "they say" lasts up to five years without going stale.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

One of these would work nicely................

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/22000-watt-air-cooled-automatic-standby-generator/403935


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> One of these would work nicely................
> 
> http://www.homedepot.ca/product/22000-watt-air-cooled-automatic-standby-generator/403935


22kw..22kwh ..that is more than most homes need on average. 

These are natural or propane gas units, Very quiet operation, but again, it's the cost of installation + changing the breaker panel over to automatic selection if the utility power drops off. That is an expensive mod to the 100 amp mains because if the generator is running during a power failure and the power comes back on..it could get damaged not to mention the damage to the utility transformer the power should get back on. 

This would require a manual disconnect switch and some indicator that the utility power is back on before switching over manually to the utility power.

For the occasional short duration power outage in the larger centres, it doesn't make economic sense for occasional use and it's too expensive to run based on fuel prices to provide all your household power if you want to to off the grid. 
Also, if there is a hydro meter on your property, you would still get minimum monthly bill whether you use the utility power or not.
Unless of course, there is a "super ice storm" like in Toronto or what we had in Eastern Ontario/Ottawa in 1998.

Then it would run for x hours or days and sit around until its needed again, in future years.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

One of these is cheap insurance for those areas that are prone to outages -> http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/73536i/

Providing local codes allow you to do so, install a plug on your furnace and away you go.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Check out the small inverter generators, these would likely be enough to power a furnace or heater for a while and they idle down to save fuel when no load is on them. Also, look up Aspen fuel which "they say" lasts up to five years without going stale.


Interesting and affordable, but it only supplies about 800watts of power..so that would only be good enough for a TV, computer and modem, but barely be enough for a 1/2 hp furnace fan motor.
http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/power-i...?kpid=6000189397638&gclid=Cj0KEQiAiamlBRCgj83

see the watt/amperage calculations for most household electrical items
http://www.generatorsales.com/wattage-calculator.asp


> With an inverter generator, the engine is connected to an efficient alternator, which produces AC electricity, just like a conventional generator. But then a rectifier is used to convert the AC power to DC and capacitors are used to smooth it out to a certain degree. The DC power is then “inverted” back into clean AC power of the desired frequency and voltage (e.g., 110-120VAC @ 60Hz). Regulation is very good and this system produces consistent power characteristics independent of the engine speed. The result is much “cleaner” power (“pure sine waves”) than is possible with a conventional generator, essentially the same quality of electricity that you typically get from your electric company


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> One of these is cheap insurance for those areas that are prone to outages -> http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/73536i/
> 
> *Providing local codes allow you to do so*, install a plug on your furnace and away you go.



You also need a manual disconnect switch to disconnect the breaker on the mains from the electrical extension plug.
Depending on the length of the outage, you also need a long extension and power bar for your computer, and TV, if you want to watch any tv during the power outage and for charging the cell phones if required,


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> You also need a manual disconnect switch to disconnect the breaker on the mains from the electrical extension plug.


Nope, not if you have a regular plug on the furnace ... just unplug the furnace from the outlet and into the extension cord hooked up to the generator.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Nope, not if you have a regular plug on the furnace ... just unplug the furnace from the outlet and into the extension cord hooked up to the generator.


Most furnaces are hard wired like mine, and have a service (furnace) switch to turn the power off on the wall. 
There should be nothing stopping one from installing a plug on the furnace lead in wire, and a duplex outlet (or a single outlet plug) on the furnace outside panel where the power goes into the furnace, I suppose. 

If the home owner doesn't have the know how to observe the electrical codes, a qualified electrician
should be able to do it.

The service switch to disconnect power to the furnace is still on the wall for the local utility power, and as long as you don't have to service the furnace while hooked up to a running generator outside, everything should work normally. 

If you do have to service the furnace then the furnace plug can be disconnected from the extension cord plug which should be seen right at the furnace for safety.

*EDIT: *
Here is a link on with some good pointers. BUT...

*WARNING/DISCLAIMER:* If you are NOT familiar with doing proper electrical hookups on your OWN furnace, then call a licensed electrician to do it for you. 
In ONTARIO, you are only allowed legally to wire up circuits in your own home, as long as you follow the electrical code, use the proper rated parts AND and have your wiring changes inspected. 

Otherwise, if you do something wrong, damage the generator and the furnace wiring and have a resultant fire, 
you may be in trouble with your fire insurance company as well living outside your home for a while. 

ALSO: This should be done long before the winter, in the fall, when you can test the portable generator,the
modified wiring and the furnace for reliable service for at least an hour to make sure that the furnace
cycles on heat a few times. 

http://tracemypreps.com/2012/01/30/how-to-wire-your-gas-furnace-to-a-generator/


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Yup, those smaller inverter gens are likely the best cost effective option for many people.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

I don't know what people are talking about computers and tvs. You'd want a generator for your freezer, fridge and furnace. The rest you can do without. A thawed freezer can cost $100s in wasted meats and such. Sure if it's cold enough you could haul it all outside and place in the snow, but that's inconvenient and can result in animals pecking away at your food.

I would run them as separate systems, as is suggested by cainvest. just plug whatever you need to run directly in to the generator (or extension cords). If you're building new and being able to run your hot tub and tanning bed in power failures is important, then by all means, pay the 12K and get the automatic gas backup generator installed. You'll probably have power to spare to sell some to your neighbours.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Princess auto usually have great deals on small generators. Like $400 for a 6500W peak generator. If you've never been to Princess Auto, you are missing out. It's like a toy store.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> I don't know what people are talking about computers and tvs. You'd want a generator for your freezer, fridge and furnace. The rest you can do without. A thawed freezer can cost $100s in wasted meats and such. Sure if it's cold enough you could haul it all outside and place in the snow, but that's inconvenient and can result in animals pecking away at your food.


Exactly, power for critical items you listed is what I had in mind and to light up a few energy efficient bulbs as needed. And since those items are not running a 100% duty cycle you can plug/unplug as you need them.



nobleea said:


> Princess auto usually have great deals on small generators. Like $400 for a 6500W peak generator. If you've never been to Princess Auto, you are missing out. It's like a toy store.


Those generators (non sine wave ones) can cause problems with some devices/appliances so be careful with that.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

We purchased in a whole home natural gas powered generator. Best purchase ever, hands down. Power goes out, lights flicker as the power switches over then everything is back to normal (save for some noise from the generator). It was expensive but worth it. We have a portable generator before then, which we've kept for use with our travel trailer.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

nobleea said:


> I don't know what people are talking about computers and tvs. You'd want a generator for your freezer, fridge and furnace.
> 
> I would run them as separate systems, as is suggested by cainvest. just plug whatever you need to run directly in to the generator (or extension cords). If you're building new and being able to run y*our hot tub and tanning bed in power failures is important, then by all means, pay the 12K and get the automatic gas backup generator installed*. You'll probably have power to spare to sell some to your neighbours.


LOL! ^^^

I don't think you can run a fridge/freezer and furnace reliably on any of these small portable generators. The startup current for the compressors on the fridge/stove and furnace fan motor will just pop the fuse or breaker on the smaller units. 

If you are worried about meat thawing out (inside the freezer/fridge), then you have to go for a much larger generator combination like the big 22kw unit that runs on natural gas.

If you have the money to spend $10K (or more) on these..and REALLY worried about all that meat and frozen stuff, then go ahead....but you may find that it is cheaper to replace the meat than to buy the emergency generator for those
rare situations. 

Also meat kept frozen in a freezer will keep for at least 24hrs (or more) in a power outage. 
Chances are the power may come back by then...if not...then start the propane BBQ outside and start cooking.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> I don't think you can run a fridge/freezer and furnace reliably on any of these small portable generators. The startup current for the compressors on the fridge/stove and furnace fan motor will just pop the fuse or breaker on the smaller units.


From what I've read about these inverter gens is they will run a fridge or furnace but as always, it'll depend on the power needed so do your research based on what you have to power. The simple method is to buy one and try to power the critical items you need to run in a power outage, this tells you two things ... the generator is working correctly and it'll power what you need before you "really" need it.

You also have a few options with most of the inverter types, obviously you can get the bigger 3100/2800 watt one or you can parallel run two 2000 watt units for 4000 watts peak, that should keep the hot tub going!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> From what I've read about these inverter gens is they will run a fridge or furnace but as always, it'll depend on the power needed so do your research based on what you have to power. The simple method is to buy one and try to power the critical items you need to run in a power outage, this tells you two things ... the generator is working correctly and it'll power what you need before you "really" need it.


Well here is my thoughts on it.

All these portable "jennys" seem like a good idea at the time. Many are bought during the power outage crisis (if not sold out by the time you manage to find one). Most of them are the typical 1500watt units with a duplex plug so you can run two extension cords for powering..power tools, like saws and stuff and some light bulbs. 

When you get to higher demand appliances such as fridges and freezers that don't run continuously, the rpm that these small 4 or 5 hp engines are running at (3600rpm for example) will change with the additional load from inrush current on the generator. 

The amount of power required to overcome the EMF resistance inside the generator to produce the extra current required will create a spike in the load on the engine that is turning it , and the rpm will dip as well as the voltage.
until the rpm governor recovers. 

So running multiple big loads off the generator not designed for this can cause overheating in the wires on the generator and in the compressor motors. Not to mention the "R of the wire" and the inherent voltage drop on thinner conductor long extension cords. 



> You also have a few options with most of the inverter types, obviously you can get the bigger 3100/2800 watt one or you can parallel run two 2000 watt units for 4000 watts peak, that should keep the hot tub going!


I would think that redundancy is the key if you are planning to run a lot of household appliances from a portable generator.
None of these will give you the peak rated power for long time durations. if you run them at their full capacity, you may get the breaker popping on the generator and some wire heating that could cause the thermal overload circuit to shut it down until it cools off. 

IF you calculate you need 4Kwatts of power to run what you want to run..two 2500 to 3000 watt generators and separate heavy duty extension cords are a necessity. 

Also I heard that in some cases, you have to run a separate ground wire to ground the generator to the utility ground, which is usually a cold water pipe.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> When you get to higher demand appliances such as fridges and freezers that don't run continuously, the rpm that these small 4 or 5 hp engines are running at (3600rpm for example) will change with the additional load from inrush current on the generator.
> 
> The amount of power required to overcome the EMF resistance inside the generator to produce the extra current required will create a spike in the load on the engine that is turning it , and the rpm will dip as well as the voltage.
> until the rpm governor recovers.


The inverter gens don't require a fixed RPM, you're looking at the wrong type of generator which normally shouldn't be used for fridges due to their output waveform. While those square/modified sine wave style generators "may work" their efficiency will be much lower than those outputing a true sine wave and may cause extra heating in some appliances (motors/transformers).

Another option, for those that have a vehicle with a large output alternator, is to get a pure sine wave inverter. The bad side to this is the cost isn't that much less than the invetrer generators and you'll need really heavy cables to connect to the vehicle battery. And while you could run the inverter off batteries alone, it wouldn't last as long and you'd have the additional battery costs to consider.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

cainvest said:


> Another option, for those that have a vehicle with a large output alternator, is to get a pure sine wave inverter. The bad side to this is the cost isn't that much less than the invetrer generators and you'll need really heavy cables to connect to the vehicle battery.


On the other hand, you don't have a separate engine and fuel supply to maintain. I'm also fairly certain that an idling car is quieter than any generator out there. It's not as convenient to set up though so it all comes down to how often you need to use it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

The small inverter gens are pretty quiet actually, especially since they can idle down on low load not like the non-inverter construction types that run a high fixed speed all the time. Many utube vids showing how quiet they are and what they can power.

I have a few inverters hanging around with heavy cables just in case I need some extra power.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Ran a quick test tonight on an old 6 cu ft freezer, a 1000w inverter and a 6 year old (somewhat charged) car battery. Guess what ... it started and ran! I have no doubt that inverter would easily run my fridge or furnace if connected to my running car, so that's good to know.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Ran a quick test tonight on an old 6 cu ft freezer, a 1000w inverter and a 6 year old (somewhat charged) car battery. Guess what ... it started and ran! I have no doubt that inverter would easily run my fridge or furnace if connected to my running car, so that's good to know.


For how long though? You are discharging a partially charged battery at certain rate, but the battery is not being charged or running on what they call *"float",* where the car alternator is putting enough energy back into the battery to compensate for the discharge amps and a little bit more.

I have no doubt that a fridge or freezer will run off a 1000watt inverter but for how long? Maybe a couple hours
if the compressor or furnace is running. 

Most cheap invertors are very inefficient. They can only provide about 80% of its input energy (12volt battery amperage) to provide the output current requirements at 120 volts.

So that would mean typically around 800watts (8 amps at 120v) is available for steady drain. The rest is lost in heat of conversion.



> The compressor will require at least 2.5 times the running amperage to start it. That would be at least 2050 watts but more likely closer to 3000.


As soon as the battery discharges to about 50-60% of it's rated charge, the battery can't supply it's rated output at the voltage required and the voltage drops, which requires the inverter to work much harder until it shuts off.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

For how long on that old car battery ... probably wouldn't have started the freezer again after running a full cooling cycle I bet. This was just a test to see if the startup demand could be met in less than optimal conditions. I also used a regular 16ga 50ft extension cord from the inverter to the freezer and not my heavier 12ga one in the garage so that added some extra losses as well.

Now if I had the setup connected to my running car it would benefit from both a higher running voltage (alternator output) and a newer battery so I would have a little extra overhead. With both the fridge and furnace not requiring to be run 100% of the time I'm sure the car's alternator would keep the battery topped up. I also have a newer HE furnace with variable DC motor that doesn't have a surge draw at startup so really it's only the fridge that'll peak on start.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

carverman, I don't know where you're getting your numbers but last time I put a kill-a-watt on my fridge (typical fridge with built-in freezer, about 18 cubic feet), it was 900W on the starting circuit and 150W when running. The chest freezer (medium sized) and small fridge (4 cubic feet) were about 70W and 50W running. Well within the load rating of a basic pure sine wave inverter and not too much trouble for the alternator of a car powering it. You must have a massive refrigerator if it needs > 500W to operate


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> T
> Another option, for those that have a vehicle with a large output alternator, is to get a pure sine wave inverter. The bad side to this is the cost isn't that much less than the inverter generators and you'll need really heavy cables to connect to the vehicle battery. And while you could run the inverter off batteries alone, it wouldn't last as long and you'd have the additional battery costs to consider.


This approach requires heavy currents coming off the vehicle battery, hence heavy guage cables required between the two.

If the vehicle is running to charge the vehicle battery, the alternator is also in the loop. If anything goes wrong the alternator rectifier bridge/regulator could be also damaged which will cost several hundred to replace the alternator, not to mention a discharged battery rendering the vehicle ineffective to start.
This could also require a tow call and add to the cost of this experiment.
Not something I would ever consider. 

IMO. if you want emergency power..get a portable backup generator and use that. Leave the vehicle battery and alternator alone.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

off.by.10 said:


> carverman, I don't know where you're getting your numbers but last time I put a kill-a-watt on my fridge (typical fridge with built-in freezer, about 18 cubic feet), it was 900W on the starting circuit and 150W when running.


That sounds about correct. My 18cuft (5 years old) has an older compressor that requires 6.0 amps (720watts) at startup, and about 140 watts (+/- 20w) to run. 

The newer compressors in newer fridge models are more energy efficient. Some are rated at 4.5 amps *540 watts at 120v at startup.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> This approach requires heavy currents coming off the vehicle battery, hence heavy guage cables required between the two.
> 
> If the vehicle is running to charge the vehicle battery, the alternator is also in the loop. If anything goes wrong the alternator rectifier bridge/regulator could be also damaged which will cost several hundred to replace the alternator, not to mention a discharged battery rendering the vehicle ineffective to start.
> This could also require a tow call and add to the cost of this experiment.
> ...


It may not be something you'll consider but for others that might want a "rare emergency use" backup, it's a simple and cost effective plan. Right now CT has the 1kw/2kw pure sine inverter on for $199, even shows you the load in watts you're using. It runs between 85-90% efficient so even at a high 400 watt draw that's less than 34 amps from the alternator, not a big deal for most vehicles. This also can be used for those that have small and occasional power needs when out camping with the car and don't want to lug a generator around.

I agree that if you're in an area that is prone to longer power outages those inverter gens would be the way to go, cheap and effective. Maybe others that want to dip their toes into a small solar setup for home or cottage, a couple of panels with a few deep cycle batteries and an inverter might be the answer. In any case, build a system that'll work best for your needs, its nice to have power when it's gone.


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