# Will Russia Invade Ukraine ?



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Russia has placed troops to surround Ukraine on the border.

Is Putin planning to invade ? What will be the response from other countries ?

Will the US intervene on Ukraine's behalf ?

People are saying it is a very tenuous situation right now that the news media isn't covering.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

US will never intervene. Surely they have learned from their disasters in Iraq and Afghanistan.

US will go with sanctions.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So the US is a toothless tiger ?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Russia already annexed a chunk of the country, and nobody cares.

Europe needs Russian gas, or they'll freeze to death this winter.

I'd be shocked if Russia doesn't take over Ukraine, I'm not even sure shots will be fired.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

My question is not whether they could (they could) or whether US would stop it (they wouldn't).
My question is why would they do it? Other than perhaps small part up to the dam that threatens water supply to Crimea, cost/benefit of attacking Ukraine seems unfavorable,


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Putin is obsessed with NATO snuggling up to Russia's border. His interest is more to keep NATO away from Ukraine.

Complicating it is China's interest in Taiwan. If the US does nothing in Ukraine.....China may be emboldened.

I think the US is going to have to decide. Conflict and war or walk away and focus on home security.

Putin has a history of making moves when the world is distracted with an Olympics.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I'd be shocked if Russia doesn't take over Ukraine, I'm not even sure shots will be fired.


More like shots of vodka with old comrades

Just a small division from the main events in the south china seas


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

A task force of up to 600 UK troops is ready to deploy in Ukraine amid fears Russia is poised to invade its neighbour.

Units from the SAS and Parachute Regiment have been warned they could be sent to the country within hours.

The preparation comes after defence chiefs and the head of MI6 advised No10 that Russian President Vladimir Putin represents a clear and present danger to Ukraine and the West.

Video footage that emerged appears to show Russian tanks, armoured vehicles and troops massing near Ukraine.

Now a British force – consisting of SAS members, the Special Reconnaissance Regiment, medics, engineers, signallers and up to 400 paratroopers from 16 Air Assault Brigade based in Aldershot, Hants – is being set up.
A source said: “The high readiness element of the brigade was told it may need to deploy at very short notice.


“Between 400 and 600 troops are ready. Their equipment is packed and they are ready to fly to Ukraine and either land or parachute in. They have trained for both eventualities.”


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

President Emmanuel Macron told Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin on Monday that France is ready to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

The warning comes after NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg cautioned Moscow against any aggression after "large and unusual concentrations of Russian forces" were spotted at Ukraine's border in recent weeks.

In a telephone conversation lasting for one hour and 45 minutes Macron expressed "our deep concern and our willingness to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine," the French president's office said.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

New data from the 2021 Chicago Council Survey, conducted July 7-26, finds that Americans are more willing than ever to support Ukraine, including using US troops to defend it. For the first time since the question was included in 2014, half of Americans support the use of US troops if Russia were to invade the rest of Ukraine (50% favor, 48% oppose). This is a significant increase in support for US intervention since 2014, when only three in 10 Americans (30%) supported sending US troops to Ukraine. 

This growing support has occurred across partisan lines. Today, a majority of Democrats (54%) support sending US troops to defend Ukraine, up from 39 percent in 2017. Over the same period, support has risen 10 percentage points among Republicans (51%, up from 41%), and eight percentage points among Independents (46%, up from 38%).


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

In the past, Ukraine was largely unprepared for war. Today, however, its military is in a much stronger position and is making sure that any future hostilities have a high price for their adversary.
Ukraine's military was in a sorry state in 2014, when Russia seized Crimea and backed an invasion of eastern Ukraine.

By 2014, after more than two decades of peace, Ukraine's military had shrunk to just 140,000 troops — only 6,000 of whom were ready for combat. Additionally, much of its high-end equipment, including some of the newest gear produced by its domestic arms industry, was sold to foreign countries.
Despite the setbacks, Ukraine's military is much larger and much stronger today.

"There's quite a few improvements," Andrew Radin, a political scientist with the RAND Corporation think tank, told Insider.

Radin, who helped write recommendations on security-sector reform for the Ukrainian government, described Ukraine's current force as "a battle-hardened military, both in terms of volunteer personnel ... as well as quite a number of veterans who are still available as reservists."

Ukraine has made progress in adopting NATO standards and practices, and its forces — 255,000 active-duty personnel and 900,000 reservists — train regularly with the US and other NATO militaries.

Ukraine increased its defense budget to 4.1% of GDP in 2020, and much of that money has gone to rearming.

In addition to US-made Javelin anti-tank missiles, the US has supplied Ukraine with armored Humvees, inflatable boats, radios, counterbattery artillery systems, and multiple Island-class patrol boats.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> People are saying it is a very tenuous situation right now that the news media isn't covering.


Bloomberg actually had a huge piece on this, yesterday, that referenced intelligence sources and said the belief is that Russia is planning a large scale invasion of Ukraine within the next 1-2 months

Bloomberg article on imminent Russian invasion


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

A winter invasion? During the winter Olympics in China?

Seems like a diversion for something. US is moving troops to east africa

Typically winter warfare is a bad idea


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> A winter invasion? During the winter Olympics in China?
> 
> Seems like a diversion for something. US is moving troops to east africa
> 
> Typically winter warfare is a bad idea


Always hard to tell with news stories. When it comes to these topics, the news items may of course be diversion or psyops.


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## Borat (Apr 28, 2017)

I hope they do.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Borat said:


> I hope they do.


Why?


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Canada considers boosting military aid to Ukraine as Russia amasses troops at the border*
Two sources with knowledge of the deliberations told The Globe and Mail that newly appointed Defence Minister Anita Anand is considering deploying hundreds of additional troops to support the Canadian soldiers already in Ukraine on a training mission. Other options being looked at include moving a warship into the Black Sea, or redeploying some of the CF-18 fighter jets currently based in Romania.
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Canada considers boosting military aid to Ukraine as Russia amasses troops at the border


Defence Minister Anita Anand is considering deploying hundreds of additional troops to support the Canadian soldiers already in Ukraine on a training mission, two sources told The Globe and Mail




www.theglobeandmail.com




*


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't know why you'd move the CF-18's from Romania. It takes longer to get airborne than to fly across the border

Might have to update the mission if they don't already fly over Ukraine


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> I don't know why you'd move the CF-18's from Romania. It takes longer to get airborne than to fly across the border
> 
> Might have to update the mission if they don't already fly over Ukraine


Redeployment to Ukraine maybe? Closer to russian border


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Moving chess pieces around the board as a show of force ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Redeployment to Ukraine maybe? Closer to russian border


No reason to. They can get RCAF or NATO air tankers. Makes no sense to move our CF-18s in Ukraine. They fly much further distances in Canada

I controlled that airspace in 2014


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> No reason to. They can get RCAF or NATO air tankers. Makes no sense to move our CF-18s in Ukraine. They fly much further distances in Canada
> 
> I controlled that airspace in 2014


If Russian aircrafts were to breach the Ukrainian airspace, which F-18 would be in the best position to have for prompt interception, those based in Romania or those based in Ukraine?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If Russian aircrafts were to breach the Ukrainian airspace, which F-18 would be in the best position to have for prompt interception, those based in Romania or those based in Ukraine?


The ones airborne in Ukraine airspace. If aircraft were to breach Ukraine airspace the last thing you want is aircrafts on land in Ukraine

Wouldn't help anything to move them from Romania.. they can just fly to Ukraine airspace in 5 minutes. They can rotate with other air patrols and refuel in the air or refuel in Romania.

Anyways they will more likely fly over the black sea. It's international waters. Nobody wants another airliner shot down


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

All those movements are just trying deterrence. It isn't about logic here, just showing you have weapons and are ready to use them. Of course it's not like 600 paratroopers or Canadian planes will slow down Russian advance for more than about 15s if they decide to attack, but it shows intent to react if time comes.
Basically showing you have a weapon to stop people from attacking you - although I guess some posters believe we should now prosecute Canadians and justify assault by Russia because Canadians have shown they have weapons?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

You want your fighters and bombers stationed as far away as is practical.
If they're right there, they're easy to hit, but put them a few hundred miles away and they're much safer.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The deterrent of having some Canadian, French, UK and American troops on the ground is enough to keep Russia on their own territory. The Russian buildup likely does 2 things: 1) it gets the attention of NATO and Biden finger wagging at Putin, and 2) boosts moral for the boots on the ground in 'occupied Eastern Ukraine'. Those rebels and paid mercenaries must be getting cold and miserable this time of year. Or it may be to backstop things going wrong with the so called 'coup' supposedly planned for this coming week.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In my non expert opinion,

The Russians knew NATO would respond and that is what they wanted.......to create an armed standoff to create negotiations with the US.

NATO won't do anything without the US onside.

The Americans don't want another war on the other side of the world for a country most Americans can't identify on a map.

The Russians and US negotiate and Russia takes part of Ukraine and gains land and a seaport for a naval base.

The US isn't going to thermal nuclear war over Ukraine, which is the only way they could win, and Putin won't back down with nothing to show for it.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Will Ukraine allow their Eastern Regions a Referendum on separation? I don't think Russia would want the whole thing but Eastern Ukraine is hungry for independence from Ukraine.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Fain said:


> Will Ukraine allow their Eastern Regions a Referendum on separation? I don't think Russia would want the whole thing but Eastern Ukraine is hungry for independence from Ukraine.


 Russia is only interested in eastern Ukraine as the autonomous part of Ukraine that would allow permanently hinder the Ukrainian desire to join EU and NATO. EU and NATO for Ukraine means stability and investment from developed countries, and prosperous Ukraine. That would obviously make average Russian to question the Kremlin on why Ukraine has higher living standards and might lead to the government change in Russia.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Russia is only interested in eastern Ukraine as the autonomous part of Ukraine that would allow permanently hinder the Ukrainian desire to join EU and NATO. EU and NATO for Ukraine means stability and investment from developed countries, and prosperous Ukraine. That would obviously make average Russian to question the Kremlin on why Ukraine has higher living standards and might lead to the government change in Russia.


ukraine economy and standard of living much lower than russia


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Fain said:


> ukraine economy and standard of living much lower than russia


The monthly minimum wage in Russia as of January 1, 2021 amounted to 12,792 Russian rubles, or approximately 172 U.S. dollars.
Starting January 1st 2021, the gross minimum monthly wage for a Ukrainian citizen amounts UAH 6000, and UAH 6500 from December 1st 2021, or 221 and 240 U.S. dollars respectively.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Ukrainiandude said:


> The monthly minimum wage in Russia as of January 1, 2021 amounted to 12,792 Russian rubles, or approximately 172 U.S. dollars.
> Starting January 1st 2021, the gross minimum monthly wage for a Ukrainian citizen amounts UAH 6000, and UAH 6500 from December 1st 2021, or 221 and 240 U.S. dollars respectively.


Lol Just say the average wage or income. . . Not comparing minimum wage.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Fain said:


> Lol


Go and troll your babushka instead.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

President Joe Biden pledged on Friday to make it “very, very difficult” for Russia‘s Vladimir Putin to take military action in Ukraine as U.S. intelligence officials determined that Russian planning is underway for a possible military offensive that could begin as soon as early 2022.









The new intelligence finding estimates that the Russians are planning to deploy an estimated 175,000 troops and almost half of them are already deployed along various points near Ukraine’s border, according to a Biden administration official who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the finding.
The Kremlin said Friday that Putin would seek binding guarantees precluding NATO’s expansion to Ukraine during the call with Biden. But Biden sought to head off the demand.

“*I don’t accept anyone’s red line,” Biden said.


https://globalnews.ca/news/8424902/russia-ukraine-offensive/


*


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Any hint at Ukraine joining NATO might actually end up in Russian invasion. 
That was long ago seen as a red line, that was set at dissolution of USSR. 
I do not see why the guarantee that was made then wouldn't be re-iterated.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Go and troll your babushka instead.


You're the one posting misleading information. It is well known that russian wages are higher than ukrainians. Most people in Crimea voted to be part of russia because it meant higher salaries, pensions and standard of living.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Sondaż: Polacy za militarnym wsparciem dla Ukrainy w przypadku ataku Rosji








Sondaż: Czy NATO powinno militarnie wesprzeć Ukrainę w przypadku ataku Rosji?


"Czy Pani/Pana zdaniem NATO powinno udzielić pomocy wojskowej Ukrainie, gdyby ta padła ofiarą agresji ze strony Rosji?" - takie pytanie zadaliśmy uczestnikom so




www.rp.pl




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Majority of Poles 61% say that NATO should step in, if Russia continues to invade Ukraine. Only 13% said no. And 25% unsure.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Republicans are blocking passage of bills to provide military aid to Ukraine.

It appears that Republicans won't support US involvement in Ukraine.

The likely scenario is Ukraine will become another Afghanistan for Russia.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> That was long ago seen as a red line, that was set at dissolution of USSR


When I was NATO some of the new partner nations were flying MiGs. Just checked and those MiGs are still active

All kinds of potential new NATO partners in the balkans that even write in cyrillic and fly MiGs. Ukraine still flies MiGs

Pretty sure there was a treaty about that at some point but we definitely glossed over that little detail in school


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*In east Ukraine, a web designer learns how to ambush a tank*
KHARKIV, Ukraine (Reuters) - Mykola Kholtobin never expected to volunteer to fight for Ukraine, but this week he found himself crouching in a fox hole and lobbing a mock grenade into a tank as part of a training exercise to prepare for a Russian invasion.

The 32-year-old web designer joined dozens of camouflage-clad reservists in the city of Kharkiv, about 25 km (15 miles) from the Russian border, to rehearse for what might happen in the event of an attack.
Kholtobin was just a baby when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 and was brought up speaking Russian as his first language, like millions of others in the east of then-newly-independent Ukraine.

He consciously switched to Ukrainian in 2014 when Russia seized Ukraine's Crimea region and Russian-backed separatists launched a war with government forces in eastern Ukraine that continues to this day.

"I thought if they are using the (Russian) language as a weapon then so must I. I'd thought about it earlier but it didn’t work out. But with the beginning of the war, I 'Ukrainianised' myself," he said in an interview with Reuters.








In east Ukraine, a web designer learns how to ambush a tank


By Vitaliy Gnidyi KHARKIV, Ukraine (Reuters) - Mykola Kholtobin never expected to volunteer to fight for Ukraine, but this week he found himself crouching in a fox hole and lobbing a mock grenade into a tank as part of a training exercise to prepare for a Russian invasion. The 32-year-old web...




www.swissinfo.ch





Every third Ukrainian (33.3%) is ready to take up arms to defend the country from Russian invasion, while another 21.7% are ready to repel aggression by joining a civil resistance movement.
At the same time, male respondents are more willing to resist: 68% of them said they are, including 58% who are ready to put up arms, and 17% -- to participate in civil resistance movements. Among female respondents, 36% are ready to resist, of which 13% are ready to resist by force and 25.5% -- by participating in civil resistance actions. Respondents aged 40-59 turned out to be most willing to repel an invasion.

*Russian court says country's soldiers stationed in Ukraine*
A Russian court has acknowledged the country's armed forces are present in the eastern part of Ukraine. The Kremlin has persistently denied the presence of Russian forces in the Donbas region.








Russian court says country's soldiers in Ukraine – DW – 12/16/2021


A Russian court has acknowledged the country's armed forces are present in the eastern part of Ukraine. The Kremlin has persistently denied the presence of Russian forces in the Donbas region.




www.dw.com


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Russian mercenaries deploy to eastern Ukraine - sources
MOSCOW, Dec 23 (Reuters) - Russian mercenaries have deployed to separatist-controlled eastern Ukraine in recent weeks to bolster defences against Ukrainian government forces as tensions between Moscow and the West rise, four sources have told Reuters.*
Of four sources, three described their offers from mercenary recruiters to go to Donbass. They said the recruiters did not disclose who they represented. All four sources declined to be named, citing fears for their safety.

Two of the three sources said they had accepted; the third said he had refused.


"There is a full house. They are gathering everybody with combat experience," said one of the two who accepted.

He said he had previously fought in Ukraine and Syria for groups of Russian security contractors whose operations have been closely aligned with Russia's strategic interests. He declined to identify the contractors.
Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said: "It's the first we've heard of this and we don't know how reliable these assertions are."

Peskov said there were no Russian regular forces or military advisers in eastern Ukraine and never had been, and that Moscow was not considering sending any. Kyiv disputes that and says regular Russian army forces are present.
Another source said he was not directly involved in the deployment, but was in touch with people on the ground who were undergoing special training. He said the aim of the deployment was what he called sabotage activities to undermine stability in Ukraine.








Russian mercenaries deploy to eastern Ukraine - sources


Russian mercenaries have deployed to separatist-controlled eastern Ukraine in recent weeks to bolster defences against Ukrainian government forces as tensions between Moscow and the West rise, four sources have told Reuters.




www.reuters.com


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

On Dec. 4, soldiers from Kyiv’s Territorial Defense Force battalion gathered in an abandoned industrial area on the city’s outskirts for a day of war games. These volunteer, civilian soldiers were preparing to defend their city against a Russian invasion force.
Should Russia invade, Ukraine's Territorial Defense Forces would secure rear echelon positions, provide an operational reserve manpower pool, and assist the regular military in conventional and unconventional combat operations.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Russian President Vladmir Putin is “an international criminal, and we need to be saying this” as forcefully as the United States condemned the leader of Serbia as responsible for the bloody Balkan wars during the 1990s, a former top NATO commander said Thursday.

Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark said the Kremlin “responds to power” in the same way that Slobodan Milosevic, president of Serbia, did in the earlier European crisis by backing off. Milosevic died in prison in 2006 facing charges of war crimes and genocide from an international tribunal in the Hague, Netherlands.








Panel: Putin's Aims Stretch Beyond Ukraine - USNI News


Russian President Vladmir Putin is “an international criminal, and we need to be saying this” as forcefully as the United States condemned the leader of Serbia as responsible for the bloody Balkan wars during the 1990s, a former top NATO commander said Thursday. Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark...




news.usni.org


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Germany needs his gas and Biden has no spine. Together with energy prices that make Russian economy much stronger, makes Putin pretty much untouchable at this point.
Realistically, he can take over eastern Ukraine and all he would get would be 'stern words'.
I don't see why he would want to do that though. There is no reason because all he wants are concessions from NATO


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Russian President Vladmir Putin is “an international criminal, and we need to be saying this” as forcefully as the United States condemned the leader of Serbia as responsible for the bloody Balkan wars during the 1990s, a former top NATO commander said Thursday.


Nicely said. The Putin regime is a menace to all of Europe. Now, Sweden is also getting anxious about growing Russian aggression in the region.

NATO has to be more forceful and put up more troops as a deterrent. Putin scores political points domestically by being macho and aggressive. All of this posturing helps him cling to power as a dictator.

He needs to be put in his place.

Let's also not forget that Russian-backed rebels in east Ukraine used a surface-to-air-missile and shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet, killing 298 innocent civilians. The Russian aggression in the area has real consequences... that was a commercial passenger flight through Europe carrying a mix of Dutch, Malaysians, Australians, and British.

Dutch investigators concluded that the Boeing 777 was shot down with a missile supplied by the Russian military to rebels operating in Ukraine.

Putin killed those civilians.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Americans won't support sending American troops to Ukraine to fight Russians.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I also don't see strong support from the rest of the world in the activities of Russia in Eastern Europe. It is both tragic and unfortunate. I am not sure what can be done to garner attention and support from the rest of the world.


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## kcowan2000 (Mar 24, 2020)

The Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO without a bloody war that Russia win.

I think the US appetite for another remote war is at an all-time low.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I mean we got Poland, Hungary, Czech, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and Macedonia without any fight

Close partnerships with Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Bosnia, Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Brazil, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Kuwait, Mongolia, Morocco, New Zealand, Philippines, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Tunisia

What do those greedy expansionist Russians want with Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine anyways


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

kcowan2000 said:


> The Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO without a bloody war that Russia win.


Do you think Russian conscripts are ready to die for Ukraine? I doubt that. Their bereaved mothers will storm kremlin.

PS it is Ukraine not the Ukraine. The Canada?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Russian soldiers will perform their duty as ordered, just as the American military would.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Hmm. It's starting to be clear. Once the US is tied up with a second civil war, Russia will enter the Ukraine.

Trump wasn't just a Putin puppet. He's the agent allowing Russian operatives to stir-up the Qanon Republicans.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Russia enters Ukraine only with weak president that won't react in power.
Trump was not stable, and that is precisely what one needs to keep Putin at bay.
Putin is a cold-blooded cynic that is a damn good politician.
He knows right now, same as he knew in 2014 - that no world leader will ever take the conflict too far. With a person like Trump being commander in chief and holding nuclear codes, one can never be sure what the hell he will end up doing.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Trump


He would push the button. He got nothing to lose.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> He would push the button. He got nothing to lose.


Yep, and that is likely what kept Putin at bay.

He invaded Ukraine under Obama/Biden administration, and now he is threatening again under Biden/Harris administration.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Tostig said:


> Trump wasn't just a Putin puppet. He's the agent allowing Russian operatives to stir-up the Qanon Republicans.


Also keep in mind that US intelligence has said that Russia interfered in the 2016 elections and supported Trump. This is spelled out in this US intelligence report.

Additional info came out in later reporting, that Putin sees the "mentally unstable" Trump as someone who helps Russia's objectives, including social turmoil in the US.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukraine's government web sites are under massive cyber attacks. This comes shortly after the US has warned that the threat of Russian invasion is high.









Massive cyberattack hits Ukrainian government websites as West warns on Russia conflict


A massive cyberattack warning Ukrainians to "be afraid and expect the worst" hit government websites late on Thursday, leaving some websites inaccessible on Friday morning and prompting Kyiv to open an investigation.




www.reuters.com


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Which begs the question I had been anxious to ask Republicans since 2003 when the US invaded Iraq because it had WMDs and needed a regime change.

Would US Republicans welcome a coalition of international forces to invade the US because the US needs a regime-change? 

If there will be a US civil war, you know Russia and maybe China would supply the arms for the Republicans. A Republucan win will be in their best interest.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It would be best to negotiate a peaceful transfer of land in Ukraine to Russia.

Russia should be required to pay the cost for people to move into Ukraine from any seized territory.

People can stay if they want or move out.

Canada should not get involved.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Russia is plotting to stage acts of provocation to create a pretext to invade Ukraine, a US official has said.*
A Pentagon spokesman said Russian operatives were planning a "false-flag" operation, to allow Moscow to accuse Ukraine of preparing an attack.








Russia-Ukraine: US warns of 'false-flag' operation


Russia is plotting to stage acts of provocation to create a pretext to invade Ukraine, a US official says.



www.bbc.com


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Canada deploys special forces to Ukraine amid rising tensions with Russia (msn.com)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Another clickbait title

It's been publicly known they were there for quite some time. I guess if the journalist says they just learned about they can make a title as if it just happened

Journalism is borderline misinformation nowadays


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

No argument here. I found it interesting that "Neither the government nor the Canadian Forces would officially confirm the special forces presence in Ukraine when contacted by Global News".
Which begs the question where does one go to source actually news instead of clickbait and opinion pieces? I find periodicals and peer reviewed journals offer some substance when looking for content but not when it comes to current events.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

londoncalling said:


> No argument here. I found it interesting that "Neither the government nor the Canadian Forces would officially confirm the special forces presence in Ukraine when contacted by Global News".
> Which begs the question where does one go to source actually news instead of clickbait and opinion pieces? I find periodicals and peer reviewed journals offer some substance when looking for content but not when it comes to current events.


Try the Government of Canada website: Operation UNIFIER - Canada.ca

Quote:

September 2020Canadian Special Operations Forces Command (CANSOFCOM) personnel joined Joint Task Force Ukraine in support of existing training development and capacity building efforts.

They have a list of all current operations: Current operations list - Canada.ca


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

londoncalling said:


> Which begs the question where does one go to source actually news instead of clickbait and opinion pieces? I find periodicals and peer reviewed journals offer some substance when looking for content but not when it comes to current events.


Real news is on twitter unfortunately and believe it or not

You'd be surprised what we get from twitter before it comes down official channels nowadays

Journalists even write entire articles based on a few tweets


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I registered a Twitter handle in 2008 shortly after it first started. Jack Dorsey sent the first Twitter message "Jack" in testing on March 2006.

Twitter is live in real time and events are easily verified when witnessed and confirmed by many Twitter users.

I read stuff on Twitter long before it is carried on CNN or other news organizations.

They monitor it as well, but have to try to verify everything which takes time.

Basically, you have to consider the source of tweets, but police and most other government agencies monitor Twiitter for information.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't support Canadian troops in Ukraine. It isn't our business what Russia does unless it attacks a NATO country.

There is nothing we could do about a Russian invasion in Ukraine anyways. All we are doing is putting our troops in harms way.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> I don't support Canadian troops in Ukraine. It isn't our business what Russia does unless it attacks a NATO country.
> 
> There is nothing we could do about a Russian invasion in Ukraine anyways. All we are doing is putting our troops in harms way.


Their purpose is to be prepared to evacuate diplomats and certain specified civilians if required

That's a long standing Canadian military function and won't change whether you like it or not


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Sec Gen Stoltenberg says #NATO has information confirming US claims of a "significant Russian presence of intelligence officers or operatives inside Ukraine." He says it's "absolutely possible" they're planning "incidents, accidents, false flag operations."









Nato-Generalsekretär Jens Stoltenberg: »Wir wollen keinen Krieg austragen, wir wollen ihn verhindern«


Besteht die Gefahr einer militärischen Eskalation in der Ukraine? Im Gespräch mit dem SPIEGEL und der Körber-Stiftung sagt Nato-Generalsekretär Jens Stoltenberg: Das Militärbündnis bereite sich auf das Schlimmste vor.




www.spiegel.de


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

m3s said:


> Their purpose is to be prepared to evacuate diplomats and certain specified civilians if required
> 
> That's a long standing Canadian military function and won't change whether you like it or not


The diplomats should be evacuated before there is armed conflict, lest we end up with another Afghanistan scenario.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> The diplomats should be evacuated before there is armed conflict, lest we end up with another Afghanistan scenario.


You should let boomer Biden know


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Canada is way out of it's depth on this imo and shouldn't be putting Canadians in harms way.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

There has been Canadian presence in Lithuania, Romania, Poland?, black sea etc since the 2014 invasion. Operation speed bump as we call it (ie deterrence/pressence)

Canadians have been publicly training in Ukraine. This announcement was for a different purpose in case they have to evacuate Ukraine. It's not out of our depth at all. We evacuated Americans from Iranian embassy in 1980. We train for NEO quite a bit

Most Canadians don't even know they even made a movie about it


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Too many german businesses in Russia?










British Royal Air Force planes flew around German airspace when they delivered anti-tank weaponry to Ukraine on Monday, flight-tracking data from FlightRadar24 showed.
In recent weeks, Ukraine has called on the likes of the US, UK, and Germany to provide military aid to help counter the buildup of Russian troops at its border. Ukraine and the US have long warned of an imminent Russian invasion.
Ben Wallace, the UK defense minister, told Parliament on Monday that Britain was sending "light, anti-armor, defensive weapon systems" to Ukraine to use only in self-defense in case of a Russian invasion.
The weapons were transported on RAF C-17 planes that flew to Ukraine by an unusually long route: through Danish instead of German airspace, as can be seen below.
The choice of route is notable given that Germany declined to send arms to Ukraine in December.
Germany has also blocked Ukraine from receiving NATO shipments of rifles and anti-drone weaponry sourced from the US and Lithuania in recent months, the Ukrainian news outlet ZN reported.
The Daily Mail reported that Germany denied the C-17s permission to use its airspace.
*But a spokesperson for the UK Ministry of Defence told Insider: "Germany has not denied access to its airspace as the UK did not submit a request. There has been no dispute between the UK and Germany on this issue."
And a spokesperson for the German defense ministry told Bild, "There had been no application from the British for the flights."
The C-17s were therefore "not prohibited" from using German airspace, the spokesperson said, Bild reported.*
The planes also avoided German airspace on their return flights to RAF Brize Norton, FlightRadar24 data showed.








UK planes took a long detour around Germany to deliver weapons to Ukraine in case Russia invades


The weapons were transported on RAF planes that flew to Ukraine by an unusually long route: through Danish instead of German airspace.




www.businessinsider.com


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I used to plan and coordinate military flights in Europe including during the Crimea crisis

I don't see anything unusual there. Mission planners would have chosen the route and there are many factors that we don't know. Flying over the ocean like that is just a much simpler route than checking in with all the ATC over Europe, filing more clearances etc. We never flew a straight line anywhere in Europe

European airspace is still based on the old borders including the east/west German border. They were talking about updating it to reflect the EU because it's overly convoluted. You can fly much straighter in Canada for example. In Europe the military is basically training in the same airspace as airliners whereas in Canada it's much more separated

Diplomatic clearances are mostly a nuisance in Europe. We would just fly around Switzerland because in airplane terms it's barely different. For the military to fly to the middle east you might literally fly the long way around the world because 1 country ignored a diplomatic clearance. Sometimes that call is made en route

Germany was always very by the rules with government stuff. There's probably more foreign military stationed in Germany than Canadian military in Canada


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483977616533114882


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Navy Sends A Message By Publicizing Guided Missile Submarine's Mediterranean Presence
The U.S. Navy’s Sixth Fleet has offered an unusual public disclosure of the location of USS Georgia (SSGN 729), one of four of the service’s converted Ohio class nuclear-powered guided-missile submarines, or SSGNs, as it conducted a brief stop near the island of Cyprus. These rare disclosures tend to occur at times of heightened international tensions. With the situation in Ukraine quickly approaching an outright crisis, it’s likely that the Navy intended for this glimpse at Georgia to serve as a signal to both allies and Russia that the United States has a highly capable presence in the region that can reach out and strike over long distances with little risk to itself.*
Beyond anything else, these submarines' ability to act as invisible arsenal ships, with the ability to haul up to 154 Tomahawk missiles — roughly just over two-thirds of that number are usually carried by most estimates, is what makes them so feared. Each one of those missiles can travel 1,000 miles to its intended target, giving the SSGN a massive standoff attack capability. 

In other words, draw a 1000 mile radius circle around an SSGN. Most of the potential targets inside that circle are put at risk when it is present. This means that *it can hit targets in Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia with ease while cruising in the Eastern Mediterranean.* And that little reminder is very likely what the Navy's little media push was all about.








Navy Sends A Message By Publicizing Guided Missile Submarine's Mediterranean Presence


The choice to disclose the USS Georgia's whereabouts was likely a deterrent reminder aimed at Russia.




www.thedrive.com


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

That is a seriously stupid article.

Russia has nuclear submarines within reach of the east and west coasts of the US and they would respond in kind.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Unverified word on the tweet street


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484714137015959558


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*The Day After Russia Attacks*
*What War in Ukraine Would Look Like—and How America Should Respond








The Day After Russia Attacks


What war in Ukraine would look like—and how America should respond.




www.foreignaffairs.com




*


----------



## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

Unpopular opinion maybe, but I think the US and other western countries should mind their own business and let this happen. Anything else will just lead to an unnecessary bloodbath and dire ramifications on the geopolitical scene. Invasions have happened all over human history and as long as here is no downright genocide, things usually turn out fine.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Thal81 said:


> let this happen.


Let what happen? nato already said they won’t fight for Ukraine. 
in 2014 many Ukrainians joined so called volunteer battalions, now that people saw what is happening in occupied part of Donbas, there will be even more volunteers plus many of them got battle experience. Do you think if the USA and other western countries will tell Ukraine to befriend Russia it will happen? I don’t think so. 
would not you fight for Canada and your family?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ukraine is none of our business. Withdraw the diplomats and troops and warn Canadians in Ukraine to get out now or find their own way out.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> Unverified word on the tweet street
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484714137015959558


*Ukraine: US orders families of embassy staff to leave








Ukraine: US orders families of embassy staff to leave


The State Department has also urged US citizens in Ukraine to consider leaving.



www.bbc.com




*


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Apparently Canada is evacuating families as well

Several Ukraine acquaintances contacted me recently saying things are still normal on the streets but that they are concerned for the first time.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485730041711505414


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Canadians are worried about their families in Ukraine.

A significant % of the population in prairie provinces traces their family heritage to Ukraine and many still have relatives over there.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Mariana Zhaglo bought her own hunting rifle, but it is not deer she is thinking of shooting. “As a mother I do not want my children to inherit Ukraine’s problems, or have these threats passed on to them. It is better that I deal with this now,” the 52-year-old marketing researcher said, picking up the Zbroyar Z-15 carbine in the kitchen of her Kiev apartment.
“I have never hunted in my life. I bought this carbine after listening to some soldiers discussing the best rifle to get. If it comes to it then we will fight for Kiev; we will fight to protect our city.
Mariana Zhaglo is a marketing researcher and spent $1,300 (£963) on the rifle, after listening in on a conversation between soldiers about the best rifle to get.
Alongside buying her rifle, Mariana, a member of Ukraine’s Territorial Defence Forces (TDF), had a silencer, bipod and telescopic sight fixed to the weapon.
The TDF is a voluntary unit of the Ukrainian armed forces.
She also bought a helmet, snow camouflage, flak jacket, ammunition pouches, boots and British army surplus uniform for $1,000.
A survey held in December last year by the Kyiv International Institute for Sociology found that 58 per cent of men and nearly 13 per cent of women were ready to take up arms to defend their country against Russia.
The mum also went on a two-week sniper course.
Alongside her new gun, she told the Times she had stocked up on supplies and food including “lots and lots of ammunition”.
Mariana is far from the only Ukrainian taking up arms to protect her home.
Ordinary citizens have flocked to join the ranks of the TDF and receive military training as Vlaidimr Putin’s forces wait at the border.








Ukrainian mum buys rifle, helmet and camouflage kit in fear of Russian invasion


The 52-year-old marketing researcher mum-of-three said: "If there’s a need for the shooting to start, then I’ll start shooting.”




www.mirror.co.uk


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

There won't be anything, this is just Putin being a cry baby begging for attention. Let the sanctions begin.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I recall another time when a crybaby begging for attention annexed Crimea. In some ways this a bit of deja vu to what went down in 2014


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

WASHINGTON/MOSCOW, Jan 28 (Reuters) - A Russian troop buildup along its border with Ukraine includes supplies of blood for the wounded, three U.S. officials told Reuters, a detail reinforcing U.S. comments that Russia "clearly" now has the capability to move on its neighbour.
The disclosure by the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, adds to growing U.S. concern that Russia could be preparing for a new invasion of Ukraine as it has amassed more than 100,000 troops near its borders.








Russian buildup at Ukraine border includes blood for wounded, U.S. officials say


The disclosure adds to growing U.S. concern that Russia could be preparing for a new invasion of Ukraine as it has amassed more than 100,000 troops near its borders.




www.reuters.com


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Article by someone with clearly more real knowledge than a MSM journo

Note: Though the author’s true identity is known to us, Tommy Conway is a penname. The author’s employer currently restricts what they can publish, however, we at The Line feel that this perspective is worth sharing

When soldiers show a dangerous contempt for reality


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

A WOMAN sniper in the Ukraine army has become a national hero after chilling footage was posted showing her killing two Russian soldiers.
But veteran army *volunteer* Olena - credited with at least 10 confirmed kills - told The Sun she would not hesitate to kill again if Vladimir Putin’s force invades - and feels no remorse.
Link with footage.








Moment female Ukraine sniper shoots separatists dead - as she vows to 'kill again'


A WOMAN sniper in the Ukraine army has become a national hero after chilling footage was posted showing her killing two Russian soldiers. Femme fatale Olena Bilozerska, 42, was filmed on the frontl…




www.thesun.co.uk


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I hope that story didn't use her real name. I would imagine the Russians would like to find her.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

sags said:


> I hope that story didn't use her real name. I would imagine the Russians would like to find her.


I also hope that story isn't true. That's kind of excuse invading nations use to justify their crossing the border. Japan claimed its troops were attacked when it entered China and Germany made up the same story when it invaded Poland.


----------



## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Tostig said:


> I also hope that story isn't true. That's kind of excuse invading nations use to justify their crossing the border. Japan claimed its troops were attacked when it entered China and Germany made up the same story when it invaded Poland.


It happened in 2017 so it shouldn't affect anything now.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Just to go back, the question really is.
"Will Russia invade MORE of Ukraine?"


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Just to go back, the question really is.
> "Will Russia invade MORE of Ukraine?"


Well Vladimir Putain is upset with Ukraine joining NATO so he can’t invade Ukraine anymore in the future.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Well Vladimir Putain is upset with Ukraine joining NATO so he can’t invade Ukraine anymore in the future.


It's not even the Ukraine joining NATO, even being friendly with them is problematic.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> It's not even the Ukraine joining NATO, even being friendly with them is problematic.


There's a long list of former soviet countries that are very friendly with NATO

Can't really blame Putin for having an issue to be honest. US built a lot of black sites and bases in former soviet countries. Being friendly today can mean missile sites tomorrow. They want a buffer

Russia stamped a lot of that out of sw asia but it was mostly under the public's radar


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> They want a buffer


Russia shares the border with the USA, never had any conflict. I am not buying that Putain scared of NATO expansion.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US says Russia is on the verge of going into Ukraine.

NPR is reporting the Russian troops have been given the word already.

The US is telling Americans to get out now.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Ukraine tensions: Russia looking for excuse to invade, US says - BBC News

Looks like Putin is playing the proverbial game of chicken with NATO.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Russia shares the border with the USA, never had any conflict. I am not buying that Putain scared of NATO expansion.


Yeah I'm not buying it either. I have never seen any sign that NATO or the US has any interest in attacking Russia.


----------



## Covariance (Oct 20, 2020)

"Russia is a gas station masquerading as a Country", Sen. John McCain 2015.

How much more are they making per barrel, MMbtu since the tanks rolled up to the border?
The rest of OPEC+ is happy to take the premium as well.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.

Putin May 2002




__





Press Statement and Answers to Questions at a Joint News Conference with Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma







en.kremlin.ru


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Well, looks like Putin decided to 'create' new countries to have a buffer in case Ukraine decides to join NATO


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

It is sobering to think about what the people in Ukraine are going through, right now. Russian troops on Ukranian soil. They have some military help but not nearly enough.

It may come down to who will live and who will die.

My heart is with you, my Ukrainian friends.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

At the end of the day Putin will get what he wants. I think Ukraine would be wise to commit to not joining NATO. 

Putin won't live forever and who is concept of rebuilding the old Soviet Union may leave along with him.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I had the chicken Kiev for dinner to commemorate the invasion. My wife had a steak. She has no sense of occasion.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

I wonder what's next.
I really really really hope the US keeps the boots on our side of the pond. ✌☮


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> Kiev


FYI


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KyivNotKiev


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

It's crazy how many cities and countries we anglicized


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm baffled that agent cheetos is supporting Putin. What an imbecile.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> At the end of the day Putin will get what he wants. I think Ukraine would be wise to commit to not joining NATO.
> 
> Putin won't live forever and who is concept of rebuilding the old Soviet Union may leave along with him.


Appeasement doesn't work.

But look at it, he's already annexing/ breaking off pieces of the Ukraine.
The "invasion" is happening before our eyes.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> The "invasion" is happening before our eyes.


And all under the heading of "peacekeeping". 

No one seems to appreciate Trump calling the move "genius", but I'm afraid he's right.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> And all under the heading of "peacekeeping".
> 
> No one seems to appreciate Trump calling the move "genius", but I'm afraid he's right.
> 
> ltr


Didn't hear that till now.

I'm afraid that nobody seems to appreciate that Trump is right.
Trump is a lot of things, lots of them bad.

But he isn't dumb, I'd actually suggest he's far more modern media savvy than people give him credit for.


Love this article.








Trump Calls Putin’s Ukraine Moves “Genius” Because He’s a Sick Man Who Hates Democracy


He also dubbed the Russian president “very savvy.”




www.vanityfair.com





Basically they're trying to paint Trump as the bad guy for realizing what Putin has done.


Putin annexed Crimea, with minimal opposition.
Then with the world watching, has orchestrated the "secession" of a large part of eastern Ukraine, which will no doubt be Russia friendly, if not outright annexed shortly.

While the western world makes threats and introduces sanctions, he politically takes over a huge chunk of territory. Agree with him or not, it's a pretty smooth trick. To top it off, it doesn't look like anyone is going to stop him.

I'm not at all surprised, as I stated a few months ago (post #4).

To be honest he might not get all of Ukraine right away, but how much of the country has he taken control of in 10 years?

As far as Putin being a genius, that's obvious, him or more likely his team, have managed a major accomplishment.
You don't have to like it to recognize the scale of the accomplishment.


Of course has to put his spin on it. "If I was in office this wouldn't have happened". Honestly I don't think Trump would have been any more likely to block this than Biden, but it is clearly unfolding under Bidens watch, so he gets the blame.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> Basically they're trying to paint Trump as the bad guy for realizing what Putin has done.


I think Trump painted himself as the bad guy for his failed coup d'etat. The non-fascist part of media covers him in am ironic light and also because he is their only news source and they are too lazy to find anything else.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

TomB16 said:


> The non-fascist part of media covers him in am ironic light and also because he is their only news source and they are too lazy to find anything else.


Sure, and while the media wastes time fussing about what Trump thinks, Putin takes Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, and perhaps has sights set on eastern Europe.

ltr


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

like_to_retire said:


> Sure, and while the media wastes time fussing about what Trump thinks, Putin takes Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, and perhaps has sights set on eastern Europe.
> 
> ltr


Are you suggesting that gross incompetence at CNN/MSNBC has allowed Putin to annex part of eastern Europe?


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Had a feeling you right wing trump lovers would embrace war.


----------



## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Didn't hear that till now.
> 
> I'm afraid that nobody seems to appreciate that Trump is right.
> Trump is a lot of things, lots of them bad.
> ...


I think he is right on that one. And not because he is a genius by any means.
It is precisely because he is unstable and therefore unpredictable.
Putin knows exactly what Biden and EU are going to do. He might be off by a little bit (I am not sure he expected as much opposition, but went through with the plans regardless). With Trump in power, Putin couldn't predict if the president will press big red button or not. Imho that's why following Crimea, he didn't press forward. Because Trump was in power. Donyetsk and Luzhansk were there for the taking since end of 2015 and Ukraine was in much bigger disarray than it is now. Also, Keystone pipeline cancellation caused massive celebration in Moscow.

Imho if Trump was in office, this would not be happening


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Ukraine's UN ambassador Sergiy Kyslytsya says Russia's UN envoy has confirmed that his president declared "a war on my country", reports Reuters news agency. 

The Ukrainian interior ministry tells CNN: "The invasion has begun."

From Ukrainian forums, explosions are heard in many Ukrainian cites. 

You will burn in hell putin and people who voted for you.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Imho if Trump was in office, this would not be happening


Liberal governments are weak and putin knows that. All they do is talk, they can use force but only against own people like JT did.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm sorry about what is happening in your country, Ukrainiandude. I hope the people you care about are safe.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

So far five Russian fighter jets, one chopper, two tanks several armoured trucks were destroyed, according to official information.
probably more in reality


----------



## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

Prayers up


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is horrible. I have a lot of friends with Ukrainian heritage, and one of my friends is an immigrant from Ukraine. Her parents live near the eastern side of the country.

Unfortunately her parents are in danger, as explosions have been reported in cities nearby. I can't imagine what she must be feeling right now and I hope her parents survive.

Shelling has been reported, and Russian tanks have entered the country. Ukrainian citizens have been given the all-clear to use firearms to protect themselves, and police are distributing additional guns to civilians and veterans.



Ukrainiandude said:


> You will burn in hell putin and people who voted for you.


He sure will. Ukraine will put up a good fight and will send many bodies back to Russia. The Russian people will feel the pain brought on by their mad, power-hungry dictator.


----------



## newfoundlander61 (Feb 6, 2011)

Effect on markets like with most conflicts other than 911 in recent times should be short term and viewed as a buying opportunity to a degree. IE: Use they cash laying around to add to some positions.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Hopefully JT and Canadian government won’t prosecute people who donated.
The National Bank of Ukraine has decided to open a special fundraising account to support the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

The central bank’s decision comes after the Ukrainian government imposed martial law throughout Ukraine in response to armed aggression by Russia and the renewed threat to Ukraine’s independence and territorial integrity.

NBU Governor Kyrylo Shevchenko announced the opening of this special account in his 24 February video address.

The number of the special account: UA843000010000000047330992708

This account accepts multiple currencies. It has been established and opened to receive transfers from international partners and donors in both foreign currency (U.S. dollars, euros, UK pounds) and hryvnias.

Support the Armed Forces of Ukraine!

_Account information_
For UAH remittances:
Bank: National Bank of Ukraine
MFO 300001
Account No. UA843000010000000047330992708
EDRPOU Code 00032106
Payee: National Bank of Ukraine

For USD remittances:
SWIFT Code NBU: NBUA UA UX
JP MORGAN CHASE BANK, New York
SWIFT Code: CHASUS33
Account: 400807238
383 Madison Avenue, New York, NY 10179, USA
Funds will be wired into account No. UA843000010000000047330992708

For GBP remittances:
SWIFT Code NBU: NBUA UA UX
Bank of England, London
SWIFT Code: BKENGB2L
Account: 40000982
Threadneedle Street, London EC2R 8AH, UK
Funds will be wired into account No. UA843000010000000047330992708

For EUR remittances:
SWIFT Code NBU: NBUA UA UX
DEUTSCHE BUNDESBANK, Frankfurt
SWIFT Code: MARKDEFF
Account: 5040040066
IBAN DE05504000005040040066
Wilhelm-Epsteinn-Strabe 14, 60431 Frankfurt Am Main,Germany
Funds will be wired into account No. UA843000010000000047330992708








NBU Opens Special Account to Raise Funds for Ukraine’s Armed Forces (updated)


The National Bank of Ukraine has decided to open a special fundraising account to support the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The central bank’s decision comes after the Ukrainian gove...




bank.gov.ua


----------



## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

The majority of Russian exports are petroleum products and those are mostly to Europe. Europe, for all their indignity over the invasion, is fully dependent on Russia for oil and natural gas to power it's transportation and electrical grids. Europe has spent the better part of 2 decades dismantling its own production of hydrocarbons while increasing their dependency on Russia, primarily in the name of outsourcing emissions.

So unless Europe is willing to turn off the lights and shut down their economy, they will continue to fund Russians and their power projection. It will take a decade to even start undoing the dependency. And they haven't even started.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

February 22, 2014 (immediately following Sochi Winter Olympics 2014)

I was in NATO at the time and all the NATO countries were at a low point military wise due to budget cuts (except for Turkey who was buying new stuff). Bases were closing and consolidating across NATO because "it's not the cold war anymore" We were stretched in multiple directions in the Middle East and North Africa. Russia's invasion of Crimea was very well calculated and timed

February 22, 2022 (immediately following Beijing Winter Olympics 2022)

NATO is probably at an even lower point following the withdrawal from Afghanistan and the global pandemic. I know the Canadian military posture has been absolutely disrupted. Expertise is retiring en masse and far less people are joining during a pandemic. We are sending a small token from each element - an artillery battery, a frigate/helo and a surveillance plane

Despite the click bait title, this +1hr video from 2015 gives a lot more in depth geopolitical background on the complexity of the situation. Of course you probably don't have time for more than the 30 second sound bites followed by sending your thoughts and prayers. It's always better to look at things from multiple perspectives






"John J. Mearsheimer, the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor in Political Science and Co-director of the Program on International Security Policy at the University of Chicago, assesses the causes of the present Ukraine crisis, the best way to end it, and its consequences for all of the main actors. A key assumption is that in order to come up with the optimum plan for ending the crisis, it is essential to know what caused the crisis. Regarding the all-important question of causes, the key issue is whether Russia or the West bears primary responsibility."


----------



## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

This war demonstrates why nations want nuclear weapons. With nuclear weapons, Ukraine doesn't lose its sovereignty. You could say it was either the dumbest mistake Ukraine ever made, or smart long-term planning of Russia to keep them away to allow for later invasion. Regardless, don't expect nuclear nonproliferation to be a popular domestic policy in the future.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Hopefully JT and Canadian government won’t prosecute people who donated.


If that's a reference to the convoy: regular people donating to the convoy were not prosecuted.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

doctrine said:


> This war demonstrates why nations want nuclear weapons. With nuclear weapons, Ukraine doesn't lose its sovereignty. You could say it was either the dumbest mistake Ukraine ever made, or smart long-term planning of Russia to keep them away to allow for later invasion. Regardless, don't expect nuclear nonproliferation to be a popular domestic policy in the future.


Budapest Memorandum 1994. Ukraine was the 3rd largest nuclear power in the world

Remember kids: Not your keys, not your crypto. Not your keys, not your nuclear weapon.

According to the memorandum, Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they would:

*Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.*
Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics.
Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.


----------



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

So much for that theory of Mutual Assured Destruction.

Next, the theory of limited war will be tested.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Tostig said:


> So much for that theory of Mutual Assured Destruction.


How has it failed? Nobody launched any nuclear weapons.

Ukraine gave them up in exchange for a memorandum


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> How has it failed? Nobody launched any nuclear weapons.
> 
> Ukraine gave them up in exchange for a memorandum


That was a big mistake. Ukraine should have gave up nukes only in exchange for NATO membership. 
Mistake number two never ever trust russia or russian people.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> If that's a reference to the convoy: regular people donating to the convoy were not prosecuted.


No they simply had their accounts frozen.
And the Justice Minister said that those who donate to some political causes should be scared.

The big issue is not only that they were never prosecuted, they were never even charged, or had their case brought before a court. The government simply decided to freeze their accounts and did so.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> So much for that theory of Mutual Assured Destruction.
> 
> Next, the theory of limited war will be tested.


What Mutual Assured Destruction?
When a Nuclear power with a UN veto attacks a non nuclear power with no formal defense alliance (ie NATO) they are pretty much powerless.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> No they simply had their accounts frozen.
> And the Justice Minister said that those who donate to some political causes should be scared.


Yes as an enforcement against illegal activity. The same way that police can pull you over if they observe you doing something illegal.

Being pulled over by police is a temporary suspension in your rights, while involvement with a crime/offence is investigated, before charges are brought. The same thing happens with arrest.

At the end of the day we had an acute national emergency where money was being funnelled to an illegal movement, and being used to fund disruptive activity that posed a threat to the nation. Including impeding border crossings and occupying a city. It obviously makes sense to take immediate action to snuff that out -- which is exactly what the government did.

No charges were brought against random small people at arms length. And the accounts are rapidly being unfrozen.

I got news for you buddy, funding far-right extremists as they try to overthrow the government and cripple the country is NOT legal, and much more severe action could be brought against people who were funding or involved in this movement. Your good pal Stephen Harper brought in lots of legislation that has teeth against terrorists and terrorist financing.

You probably cheered all that on when Harper was targeting Muslim terrorists. Now you feel differently now that the terrorists are guys you served in the military with.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Yes as an enforcement against illegal activity. The same way that police can pull you over if they observe you doing something illegal.


Yes, but typically you need a court order to freeze bank accounts.



> At the end of the day we had an acute national emergency


Not in Ottawa, maybe in BC where we had active terrorism.



> where money was being funnelled to an illegal movement, and being used to fund disruptive activity that posed a threat to the nation. Including impeding border crossings and occupying a city. It obviously makes sense to take immediate action to snuff that out -- which is exactly what the government did.


Border crossings were stopped without Trudeaus measured, they even froze accounts, they just had to go through the proper channels of getting a judge to ok it.



> I got news for you buddy, funding far-right extremists as they try to overthrow the government and cripple the country is NOT legal, and much more severe action could be brought against people who were funding or involved in this movement.


You keep saying this, but haven't really shown any evidence.
You claim all sorts of stuff without evidence, but when questioned you either double down, or drop it, you rarely support it.



> Your good pal Stephen Harper brought in lots of legislation that has teeth against terrorists and terrorist financing.


Sorry again, Stephen Harper isn't my "good pal" either. I wonder why you think I'm friends with all these people? Is it something about my liberal views offensive to you?
Yes they should do something about terrorism, but the Ottawa protest clearly wasn't terrorism.
Trudeau was unable to produce any legitimate evidence and simply gave up on this power grab.



> You probably cheered all that on when Harper was targeting Muslim terrorists.


I've cheered for every terrorist they went after. I don't see what religion has to do with it.



> I'll bet you feel differently now that the terrorists are guys you served in the military with.


If they are committing attacks, like the idiot that went to attack an empty building on the GG property sure.
I'm glad they got him too. I've been consistently against political violence, though I believe you still supported the US protests when they were torching government buildings.

The problem here is that Trudeau is trying to smear people who simply disagree with him. Using anti terrorism laws against political opponents, like the Justice minister threatened, is a problem.

We all know Trudeau is light on terrorists he agrees with.
He didn't declare war against pipeline protestors, or the Ryerson protest etc.

The only thing that really bothers Trudeau is those who dare to disagree with him.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Out of 90 rusian tactical battalions 60 has already invaded Ukraine 🇺🇦 
Ukrainian president announced total mobilization of citizens according to ranks and military experience. 
russian military plane with paratroopers
well whatever left from them


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Ukrainian forces Destroyed over 30 tanks 
130 personnel armoured carriers 
5 plane and 6 helicopters 
200 russiian special forces that landed on the airport near capital were destroyed. Plus no one counted regular soldiers.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

That tail number looks like RF-36074 was spotted recently (not fake)

There's video of a helicopter crash and pilot ejection into the water near Kyiv

Disturbing cell video of a jet attacking residential area (children screaming)


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If Europe was more energy independent maybe they could take a stand

But Greta Thunberg says nuclear power is bad so they need gas piped in from Russia instead


----------



## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

This is not going to end with Ukraine, next Maldova, then north to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. China will annex Taiwan during this time. The west needs to wake up!


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

afulldeck said:


> The west needs to wake up!


Are you a military man? If not, I take your position to mean that you would enlist to fight these wars for these other countries?


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Taiwan has been in the crosshairs. I wondered if Ukraine was a diversion for Taiwan

Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania are already NATO so that would invoke article 5.. which is why NATO is building up in the Baltics, Romania and Poland

Moldova is not NATO and I can't imagine they have much of a military?


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Here you go, afulldeck. God speed.









I’m 18 years old, live in Canada, and I want to join the Ukrainian Army. Is this possible? And how would I go about doing this?


Answer (1 of 15): I'm 37 ex British soldier. I was in the Royal Engineers for 11 years. From 18 — 29. I'm seriously considering going to Ukraine to help. Is this actually possible?




www.quora.com


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> If Europe was more energy independent maybe they could take a stand
> 
> But Greta Thunberg says nuclear power is bad so they need gas piped in from Russia instead


That's the real problem, Europe needs Russia so they were never really serious about stopping them.
I'm not sure they're going to step up now, likely not. They did nothing for Crimea.

Maybe it wasn't a good idea to build your energy policy around the wants of an abused mentally ill teenager, at the expense of national (continental) security.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Ukrainian president announced total mobilization of citizens according to ranks and military experience.
> russian military plane with paratroopers
> well whatever left from them


Do you know if civilians will be given the option to take up arms as well? I heard one report that police were distributing firearms to everyone.

By the way, Canada recently sent Ukraine about $8 million of weapons. Just a few days ago actually.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-ukraine-lethal-equipment-1.6351536


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Maybe it wasn't a good idea to build your energy policy around the wants of an abused mentally ill teenager, at the expense of national (continental) security.


Agreed, and look at how badly this worked in the past when the world depending on Arab oil as well.

The Saudis, another tyrannical regime, and violent by nature (keep in mind the state routinely beheads people) ended up using a lot of that money to fund muslim extremism. The world has been suffering for years due to Saudi sponsored wahhabism... all because the US and Britain wanted to do business with them. In fact even to this day, the west continues to be friendly with, and supports this monstrous, violent regime in the middle east.

We have to start getting smarter about who we do business with. Energy and economic policy should be excluding *Putin's* Russia and excluding Saudis. I specifically mention Putin because he is the true monster here. Russia could be a fine country under other leadership.

Putin will burn in hell, for sure. I hope my friend's parents in Poltava are fine. @Ukrainiandude do you know if that city has been shelled?


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukraine doesn't use NATO 5.56mm ammo so we didn't send it at first. It's kind of a logistical nightmare to use Russian and NATO equipment at the same time

Handing civilians weapons is also very desperate. As soon as they take up arms they are no longer protected as civilians under the Geneva conventions

Guerilla warfare is very effective though. Russian and Ukraine military look mostly similar though.. even Russia is marking their vehicles with a white Z


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Agreed, and look at how badly this worked in the past when the world depending on Arab oil as well.


Well, there is a reason the US has been aggressively pursuing energy independance, unfortunately Canada decided not to play that game, instead we let foreign interests dictate it.

We had over a billion dollars of foreign money working to undermine our energy industry, and that's likely an underestimate.








Public inquiry into anti-Alberta energy campaigns


An independent commissioner was appointed to lead a public inquiry into the foreign-funded campaigns targeting Alberta's oil industry.




www.alberta.ca


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> We had over a billion dollars of foreign money working to undermine our energy industry, and that's likely an underestimate


Geez man, can't you go 5 minutes without spouting some conservative propaganda on this board? This is why I think you're a "professional" at this.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> Ukraine doesn't use NATO 5.56mm ammo so we didn't send it at first. It's kind of a logistical nightmare to use Russian and NATO equipment at the same time


m3s do you think Ukraine will be able to use the arms we did send them? Hopefully it was useful in some capacity for defence.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Geez man, can't you go 5 minutes without spouting some conservative propaganda on this board? This is why I think you're a "professional" at this.


Okay, a major issue undermining the protection of the Ukraine is energy dependance.
Several posters, including yourself, agreed that energy policy is a concern.

I simply pointed out that we have foreign actors heavily involved and funding opposition to our energy policy and by extension our national defense. The fact that a country with some of the largest energy reserves on the planet isn't energy independent is an embarrasment.

The fact that foreign funds pushed us to this makes it worse.

It's really sad that you think national defense and infrastructure is "conservative propaganda", maybe you didn't notice but there is a country that is being invaded and energy policy is one of the problems impacting the response.

I wonder how much Russian money funded the opposition to energy independence, or at least freedom from Russian influence in Europe.

You might not care about the people of the Ukraine, but I do.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> m3s do you think Ukraine will be able to use the arms we did send them? Hopefully it was useful in some capacity for defence.


I know they were asking for more air defenses

Canada has no air defense ourselves. We have air and space surveillance that can cue defenses. Russia targeted their air defenses today from every side

Ukraine managed to take out several planes and helicopters but as you run out of air defense the land forces can move in with air support


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> m3s do you think Ukraine will be able to use the arms we did send them? Hopefully it was useful in some capacity for defence.


With air superiority and a heavy armour advantage , Russia can easily overrun most of the Ukraine. 
A few small arms are mostly useless, we're not even sending anti-tank weapons.








Canadian arms earmarked for Kurds now going to Ukraine, but minus the anti-tank weapons


The package of equipment, weapons and ammunition is the same one promised in 2016 to the Kurds, but put into storage after Iraq objected to the shipment.




ottawacitizen.com






Maybe with NATO Air power they can make it infantry only, at which point the whole thing turns into a bloody mess, and massive suffering for civilians.
But without at least NATO/US air support, Russia will be able to do whatever they want.

I think China is much more patient than Putin (because it's a party dictatorship instead of a one old man), but the wimpy international action here is likely to embolden them on Taiwan.


----------



## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> Are you a military man? If not, I take your position to mean that you would enlist to fight these wars for these other countries?


I was-but now I'm old. Would you fight for your country? Would you fight for the freedom of others? Would you stand by while some mad-man overtakes a democratic country? I know where I stand do you?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The fact that Russia has a substantial nuclear arsenal and Putin stated he would use them, is far more of a deterrent to Europe going to war against Russia than oil supply.

In a thermal nuclear war everyone loses and Europe would be left a smoking hole in the ground.

Be careful what you wish for....


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The fact that Russia has a substantial nuclear arsenal and Putin stated he would use them, is far more of a deterrent to Europe going to war against Russia than oil supply.
> 
> In a thermal nuclear war everyone loses and Europe would be left a smoking hole in the ground.


Okay, well lets all just surrender to Putin now then, because .. you know.. nukes.

As Crimea shows Russia knows they can get away with it, they can invade countries and still have western countries hand them piles of money

I don't know the right strategy here, but appeasement and just letting aggressors do whatever they want hasn't worked out that well historically.



> Be careful what you wish for....


I wish for a free peaceful society where we all respect human rights.

I don't see anything wrong with that.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Russia can easily invade but then they have to control the population. It would take far more soldiers and a massive expense to control all of Ukraine.

The Russians won't be there long. Putin won't live forever. Sometimes it is better to step aside and wait for a better time to engage the enemy.

Wars in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were wars of attrition. The US eventually tired of the conflict and went home. Russia tired of Afghanistan as well.

The MAD theory doesn't work with someone with nuclear weapons who doesn't fear reprisals.

You want to risk tens of millions of lives on the hope Putin is bluffing ?


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

afulldeck said:


> I was-but now I'm old. Would you fight for your country? Would you fight for the freedom of others? Would you stand by while some mad-man overtakes a democratic country? I know where I stand do you?


I know where I stand.

Fight for my country:. Yes
Fight for another country: no (with exceptions)
Know where I stand:. Yes

I stand against sending people to a war I would not fight myself. It seems clear to me, it's a lot easier to talk tough and petition for war when your life is not on the line.

I also know that it's easier to say you would join a war against an enemy with planes/tanks/superior weapons than it is to actually join it.

Please have a great evening, afulldeck. I hope you find your missing jack of clubs.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> With air superiority and a heavy armour advantage , Russia can easily overrun most of the Ukraine.
> A few small arms are mostly useless, we're not even sending anti-tank weapons.


Not sending those Carl Gustavs is very interesting indeed

The Baltic nations have been stocking up on Carl Gustavs and Javelin anti-tank weapons from lessons learned during the Russian invasion of Georgia. Ukraine has Javelin ant-tank missiles which are more advanced and very effective today, but there are many pictures of Russian tanks in eastern Ukraine with improvised defenses against the Javelins and drones from above.

The Carl Gustav is less advanced however hits directly from the side. There's likely a reason I'm not aware of Ukraine may not have wanted them or they wouldn't be effective (Russian tanks are more advanced than what's in the ME)


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

France replied to Putin that NATO has nukes too.

Here we go with the who has the biggest dick contest.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> Not sending those Carl Gustavs is very interesting indeed


Seems odd, as anti-tank weapons are really important.



> The Carl Gustav is less advanced however hits directly from the side. There's likely a reason I'm not aware of Ukraine may not have wanted them or they wouldn't be effective (Russian tanks are more advanced than what's in the ME)


Remember the 84 has been upgraded several times since the 40's, and the modern rounds are quite effective.
However they're unguided short range systems, they're not really suitable for going up against a tank.

Modern tank armour is very effective. There are many reports from recent conflicts of the Abrams surviving hits from modern projectiles, including other Abrams, all of which are far more powerful than man portable systems.

I'd expect the Russian tanks would be similarly effective. Without their own armor, or air support the tanks can't easily be stopped.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

February 24th, 2022 will go down in history as the day Russia bombarded multiple cities across All Of Peaceful Ukraine while most were still sleeping, the day the world has finally recognized Russian aggression against Ukraine as an act of War.
Thank you to everyone who reached out and keeps Ukraine in their thoughts and prayers. Your support means a lot. Really!
For those who wonder what can be done from far away:
1. Donate: As good friend of mine put it: “Ukrainians are now worried about survival, we can make sure they don’t have to worry about resources”. The two organizations I trust with my donations are Save Life In UA (https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/) to support Ukrainian Army and Ukrainian Humanitarian Appeal (https://www.cufoundation.ca/) for humanitarian assistance.
2. Advocate to stop Russia through personal choices (not buying Russian product, investments, etc.) or by supporting government officials who campaign for Disconnection of Russia from the SWIFT banking system; Extension of further defensive military aid to Ukraine; Freezing of Russian capital abroad and access to any capital operations.
3. Be well-informed. *Always double check your sources. Russian propaganda machine is outrageous yet powerful.*


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Do you know if civilians will be given the option to take up arms as well?


Yes they can take arm to defend their families. This is the line of volunteers who willing to joint armed forces or territorial defences based on military qualifications. Remember that in Ukraine military service is still mandatory and many man has 12 months to 2 years of service. Also many fought in the war in eastern Ukraine as soldiers or volunteers.
Ukrainians are lining up in front of regional military headquarters to join the forces, voluntarily.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Crazy to sacrifice lives in a war that can't be won.

CNN reporting a story that a group of Ukrainian solders were told by the Russians to lay down their arms or they would be attacked.

A Ukrainian soldier messaged back........._Russian soldier go f*** yourself._

It was the Ukrainian soldier's last message. They were all killed.

Better to be a freedom fighter tomorrow than a martyr today.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> Fight for my country:. Yes
> Fight for another country: no (with exceptions)


If Russia were to invade Canada and the USA said no, screw nato, everyone for their own.
How long do you reckon Canada will last? 
Each Ukrainian president begged for nato membership, and in 2008 the USA said yes, but Germany said no. 
Current president begged for nato almost every meeting, but all in vane. Do you know that russia has a kill list and President Zelenski number one on it, his family number two. He said it himself.


----------



## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Pakistan is meeting with Putin to discuss a new gas pipeline, perhaps they should be sanctioned as well...
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pakista ... ct-2787116


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Audio emerges appearing to be of Ukrainian fighters defending island from Russian warship*
From CNN's From Tim Lister in Kyiv and Josh Pennington 

An audio clip has emerged of what appears to be an exchange between Ukrainian soldiers on an island in the Black Sea and an officer of the Russian Navy.
All the soldiers — who were defending Snake Island — are reported to have been killed, according to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.
"*All border guards died heroically but did not give up. They will be awarded the title of Hero of Ukraine posthumously," Zelensky said. *
At some point on Thursday, a Russian warship approached the island. 


> According to the purported audio exchange, the Russian officer says: "This is a military warship. This is a Russian military warship. I suggest you lay down your weapons and surrender to avoid bloodshed and needless casualties. Otherwise, you will be bombed."


The alleged *response from a Ukrainian soldier: "Russian warship, go f*** yourself."

One the movie will be made of this real story.*


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Modern tank armour is very effective. There are many reports from recent conflicts of the Abrams surviving hits from modern projectiles, including other Abrams, all of which are far more powerful than man portable systems.
> 
> I'd expect the Russian tanks would be similarly effective. Without their own armor, or air support the tanks can't easily be stopped.


Yea from sleuthing the tank subreddits Russia is sending in more advanced armour.

Apparently Ukraine got NLAW from the UK and Javelin anti-tank weapons from the west. These can attack direct like the Carl Gustav or guided from above.

This is apparently a very modern Russian T-80BVM turret blown off today and the hull is smoking 50m to the right


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496808569890508802


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> The alleged *response from a Ukrainian soldier: "Russian warship, go f*** yourself."
> 
> One the movie will be made of this real story.*


One of the young soldiers live streamed it.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I am hearing that there is widespread disgust in Russia as well, against this aggression towards Ukraine.

Is it possible that Putin has lost his mind? It doesn't sound like the Russian people support this.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The cost of war must be worth the sacrifice.

Sending Ukrainians to their death is not going to change the outcome.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> One of the young soldiers live streamed it.


Yes I have heard that recording, it’s legit. True heroes. Ukrainian soldiers go to heaven, russians just croak.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

afulldeck said:


> Pakistan is meeting with Putin to discuss a new gas pipeline, perhaps they should be sanctioned as well...
> https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pakista ... ct-2787116


I whole heartedly support that sanction but Trudeau cannot undermine the source of guest workers.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If Russia were to invade Canada and the USA said no, screw nato, everyone for their own.
> How long do you reckon Canada will last?
> Each Ukrainian president begged for nato membership, and in 2008 the USA said yes, but Germany said no.
> Current president begged for nato almost every meeting, but all in vane. Do you know that russia has a kill list and President Zelenski number one on it, his family number two. He said it himself.


The reality is: Ukraine is not in NATO.

I do not want to volunteer to fight for Ukraine.

Are you part of the Ukraine defense effort? If so, how can I help you without risking my life?

I am desperately sorry for what is happening over there. It is wrong on many levels. Please accept my deepest hopes and best wishes for the safety of the people you care about. If you are fighting, keep your head down. Stay alert. I hurt for you.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Truly horrific. Unfortunately, previous decisions to not allow Ukraine to be a part of NATO and a European dependence on Russian energy has encouraged Putin to take these steps. He is a very smart and calculating individual. He knows that he can push the boundaries and that it will take awhile for the rest of the world to decide what steps to take in response and then even longer to mobilize. Although the economic sanctions will have a large impact on the Russian economy it will do little to prevent the bloodshed and destruction being experienced by innocent people.

To those saying we should not involve ourselves in this matter perhaps you have know idea how many Canadians have roots in Ukraine.

Ukrainian Canadians - Wikipedia

In 2016, there were an estimated 1,359,655 persons of full or partial Ukrainian origin residing in Canada (the majority being Canadian-born citizens), making them Canada's eleventh largest ethnic group[1] and giving Canada the world's third-largest Ukrainian population behind Ukraine itself and Russia.

Strictly from a humanitarian standpoint we should be doing more. 

Thoughts and hope goes out to those in harm's way.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> how can I help you without risking my life?


You check out my previous posts. Thanks.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> According to internet folklore there is a Ukrainian MiG-29 ace pilot legend in the making who shot down 6 Russian aircraft just today
> 
> The Ghost of Kyiv
> 
> ...


We need those too.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> You check out my previous posts. Thanks.


I saw your previous post. I don't want to send money because, in one week time, Russia will get it.

Were it not for that, I would.

If you are heading over to fight, how can I help you directly? Do you have everything you need?


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

If these numbers are correct it is certainly a David and Goliath scenario from both an economic and military standpoint. The blurb also points out some differences and similarities to the previous Russian invasion of Ukraine.

With one tenth of Russia's military spending, Ukraine is hugely outmatched (msn.com)


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If Russia were to invade Canada and the USA said no, screw nato, everyone for their own.
> How long do you reckon Canada will last?


The only thing keeping Canada safe is the USA, and I hope everyone here knows that.

We are just a sitting duck without American backing.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I am hearing that there is widespread disgust in Russia as well, against this aggression towards Ukraine.
> 
> Is it possible that Putin has lost his mind? It doesn't sound like the Russian people support this.


Just because there are protestors doesn't mean they represent the majority.
Remember Canada had widespread protests against it's government recently, enough that the PM declared war on the protestors.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> Yea from sleuthing the tank subreddits Russia is sending in more advanced armour.
> 
> Apparently Ukraine got NLAW from the UK and Javelin anti-tank weapons from the west. These can attack direct like the Carl Gustav or guided from above.
> 
> This is apparently a very modern Russian T-80BVM turret blown off today and the hull is smoking 50m to the right


Lucky shot, go read about it, NLAW isn't going to penetrate front armour. 
Realistically short range man portable systems are for knocking treads off MBTs, or useful against other armored vehicles (APCs etc), but a MBT is really dangerous, and you don't want to be within their effective range.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

doctrine said:


> The majority of Russian exports are petroleum products and those are mostly to Europe. Europe, for all their indignity over the invasion, is fully dependent on Russia for oil and natural gas to power it's transportation and electrical grids. Europe has spent the better part of 2 decades dismantling its own production of hydrocarbons while increasing their dependency on Russia, primarily in the name of outsourcing emissions.
> 
> So unless Europe is willing to turn off the lights and shut down their economy, they will continue to fund Russians and their power projection. It will take a decade to even start undoing the dependency. And they haven't even started.


This was quite evident during my recent trip to Germany. A lot of complaints about energy prices and Putin, I had No idea Russia was the source Of German energy. I was surprised an industrialized country like Germany is so dependent on foreign sources, particularly Russia.

Makes me feel the West is following the same path with China….becoming economically dependant on a country who you have serious concerns about. Not a good long-term situation……wars have occurred because of this.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> This was quite evident during my recent trip to Germany. A lot of complaints about energy prices and Putin, I had No idea Russia was the source Of German energy. I was surprised an industrialized country like Germany is so dependent on foreign sources, particularly Russia.
> 
> Makes me feel the West is following the same path with China….becoming economically dependant on a country who you have serious concerns about. Not a good long-term situation……wars have occurred because of this.


That's why people said the invasion of Crimea was just a preamble for the full invasion of the Ukraine.

Oh and if you were listening the "evil right wing climate deniers" were saying all along it was stupid for Germany to shut down their powerplants and become dependant on Russian Energy. This was reiterated during the Crimean invasion. 
But it was ignored... because "climate change".


----------



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Trusting that no one will be downplaying the devastation like they did for the January 6, 2021, event, the April 30, 2020 event or the threat by the Trucker's Protest.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> Trusting that no one will be downplaying the devastation like they did for the January 6, 2021, event, the April 30, 2020 event or the threat by the Trucker's Protest.


There is a difference between domestic protests and an actual invasion by a foreign military.

If you really think that the Truckers protest was "Our Ukraine", you're delusional.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

That's an impressive lack of intellection


----------



## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> This was quite evident during my recent trip to Germany. A lot of complaints about energy prices and Putin, I had No idea Russia was the source Of German energy. I was surprised an industrialized country like Germany is so dependent on foreign sources, particularly Russia.
> 
> Makes me feel the West is following the same path with China….becoming economically dependant on a country who you have serious concerns about. Not a good long-term situation……wars have occurred because of this.


Europe diversified natural gas pipeline routes instead of suppliers. Unfortunately for them, all the pipelines went to Russia.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Tostig said:


> Trusting that no one will be downplaying the devastation like they did for the January 6, 2021, event, the April 30, 2020 event or the threat by the Trucker's Protest.


It wouldn't surprise me if Trump were to describe the invasion as Russian troops and bombs hugging and kissing Ukranian nationals.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

While mainstream media like CNN are sending reporters to the underground train stations or to the border to ask Ukrainians "how they feel".....which I think everyone already knows or can imagine for themselves, there are multiple live streams by European news sources on Youtube.

Just go to Youtube and search "Ukraine live" and there are all kinds of them.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if Trump were to describe the invasion as Russian troops and bombs hugging and kissing Ukranian nationals.


That would surprise me. 

But you seem to confused how well Putin has handled this situation for an endorsement of the actions.
With the entire world watching he's invaded a sovereign nation and faced no real opposition. That's impressive.

It's horrific, and terrible, but the fact he was able to do so is impressive.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

CNN is an embarrassment. MSNBC has some good attributes but is also an embarrassment, in many ways.

I get a decent chunk of my news from Europe also, Sags.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Twitter OSINT is where it's at

Crowd sourced and corroborated with autistic attention to detail

MSM just can't compete with that


----------



## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> That would surprise me.
> 
> But you seem to confused how well Putin has handled this situation for an endorsement of the actions.
> With the entire world watching he's invaded a sovereign nation and faced no real opposition. That's impressive.
> ...


He knows that all the Western leaders are weak now. During the buildup to all this it was basically stated that there would be no military response from allied nations, so the invasion was hardly a gamble. Not sure why he didn't do it years ago as he had Trump under his thumb, but maybe he thought he was unhinged enough that he would confuse the diet coke button on his desk with the other button.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

diharv said:


> He knows that all the Western leaders are weak now. During the buildup to all this it was basically stated that there would be no military response from allied nations, so the invasion was hardly a gamble. Not sure why he didn't do it years ago as he had Trump under his thumb, but maybe he thought he was unhinged enough that he would confuse the diet coke button on his desk with the other button.


I don't think Putin had Trump as well controlled as Biden/Bidens handlers.

Biden know it's a bad idea to do much, so they won't really get involved.

It's a nonzero chance that someone would call Trump weak for letting Putin invade, then he might overreact for someone daring to insult him.

Really Putins invasion is going very well, I'm surprised that nobody really tried to stop him after Crimea.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

diharv said:


> Not sure why he didn't do it years ago as he had Trump under his thumb, but maybe he thought he was unhinged enough that he would confuse the diet coke button on his desk with the other button.


Many many reasons that could probably be a book

In a few words Russian forces have been building up while western forces have been wearing down in Afghanistan

Now we'll pour resources back into NATO just in time for China to invade Taiwan (the real target)


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> Really Putins invasion is going very well, I'm surprised that nobody really tried to stop him after Crimea.


There were sanctions and frozen assets after Crimea but Trump and the GOP lifted those.

Trump and the GOP were clearly under Russian control. (This is a news flash for fox News viewers)


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> There were sanctions and frozen assets after Crimea but Trump and the GOP lifted those.
> 
> Trump and the GOP were clearly under Russian control. (This is a news flash for fox News viewers)


Yeah, so clearly under Russian control, they waited until after he left office to invade Ukraine.

I think they waited until they had a more predictable president.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Russia vetoes UN resolution deploring 'aggression' in Ukraine - Breitbart 

Eleven of the council’s 15 members voted for the motion, which was co-written by the United States and Albania. China, India and the UAE abstained.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

londoncalling said:


> Eleven of the council’s 15 members voted for the motion


What did Canada vote? Oh yea.. never mind


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

My response to the security counsel vote would be to cease trade with China, India, and the UAE.

But, China owns north America. Canada has a much higher Indian expat community than statscan indicates (lots of good content on how they cook the books by not counting the annual renewals), and we seem infinitely tolerant of Muslim countries, for some reason (which India is not. Only about one third Muslim but all of the Indians in my city are Muslim).


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

So why aren't there shiploads of Canadian LNG leaving Quebec for Rotterdam daily? It would be a major geopolitical win to assume the revenue stream and deny it to the Russians and maybe make Canadian gas worth something in the mean time.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Amen to that.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

gardner said:


> So why aren't there shiploads of Canadian LNG leaving Quebec for Rotterdam daily? It would be a major geopolitical win to assume the revenue stream and deny it to the Russians and maybe make Canadian gas worth something in the mean time.


Because "climate change".
The government is letting anti pipeline terrorists to operate with impunity.

Heck the current government has put a criminal protestor in charge of our natural resources. Do you think the guy who has a criminal record for protesting the oil and gas industry is going to approve anything?


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> Because "climate change".


Yep, we're more concerned about the weather than anything else.

ltr


----------



## accord1999 (Aug 9, 2013)

gardner said:


> So why aren't there shiploads of Canadian LNG leaving Quebec for Rotterdam daily? It would be a major geopolitical win to assume the revenue stream and deny it to the Russians and maybe make Canadian gas worth something in the mean time.


Because we rather the Americans do that dirty job.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466534922571579394


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Up to a few days ago, would anyone in Europe pay more for oil ond gas from Canada when they had a cheap steady supply from Russia and OPEC ?


----------



## robfordlives (Sep 18, 2014)

Meanwhile in shooting yourself in the foot archives









Biden Administration Halts New Drilling in Legal Fight Over Climate Costs


The Interior Department is pausing new federal oil and gas leases and permits after a judge blocked the government from weighing the cost of climate damage in decisions.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

accord1999 said:


> Because we rather the Americans do that dirty job.


The "dirty job" of keeping Europeans from freezing to death?

Maybe the world would be better if we paid a bit more attention to Mike Rowe.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Up to a few days ago, would anyone in Europe pay more for oil ond gas from Canada when they had a cheap steady supply from Russia and OPEC ?


Who said they'd pay more?

They also import significant fuel from the USA and Australia, Australia is even further than Canadas East coast.








Shedding light on energy in the EU: From where do we import energy ?


For its own consumption, the EU also needs energy that is imported from third countries. In 2020, the main imported energy product was petroleum products (including crude oil, which is the main component), accounting for almost two thirds of energy imports into the EU, followed by natural gas...




ec.europa.eu





I'd suggest that Russian oil and gas is far more expensive than Canadian anyway, when's the last time Canada threatened to hold back oil and gas for political leverage?


----------



## accord1999 (Aug 9, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> The "dirty job" of keeping Europeans from freezing to death?
> 
> Maybe the world would be better if we paid a bit more attention to Mike Rowe.


Sorry, I meant to add quotes to that term to show my displeasure at Canada yet again leaving money on the table. LNG was a major opportunity if Canada started 15-20 years ago, but it's now so far behind the US, Qatar and Australia that Canada will probably be not much more than a bit player again.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

accord1999 said:


> Sorry, I meant to add quotes to that term to show my displeasure at Canada yet again leaving money on the table. LNG was a major opportunity if Canada started 15-20 years ago, but it's now so far behind the US, Qatar and Australia that Canada will probably be not much more than a bit player again.


Well, we've let foreign interests define our energy policy for years, is it any surprise this happens to be to our detriment?

Instead we've put to convicted criminals like Guilbeault in charge, how do you think this is going to work out for us.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Globalization is starting to backtrack. Although there is significant benefit to international trade, many countries are quickly learning what happens when you become solely dependent on another country for essential needs. Not being able to buy some toys and gadgets from another country due to supply chain issues is a minor inconvenience. Not having gas supply to heat your home a bit more of a problem. Putin knows he has some time while the rest of the world gets its house in order. People are all for humanitarian efforts as long as they don't lose their own way of life in the process. Politicians rarely alienate their citizens to help out people being killed in another country. It's been this way for quite sometime. Everyone is fearing Russia will turn off the tap, which is a strong possibility even though it will hurt Russia greatly economically and definitely escalate the situation. I don't know well enough which trade agreements or treaties would be violated in doing so.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

londoncalling said:


> Globalization is starting to backtrack. Although there is significant benefit to international trade, many countries are quickly learning what happens when you become solely dependent on another country for essential needs. Not being able to buy some toys and gadgets from another country due to supply chain issues is a minor inconvenience. Not having gas supply to heat your home a bit more of a problem. Putin knows he has some time while the rest of the world gets its house in order. People are all for humanitarian efforts as long as they don't lose their own way of life in the process. Politicians rarely alienate their citizens to help out people being killed in another country. It's been this way for quite sometime. Everyone is fearing Russia will turn off the tap, which is a strong possibility even though it will hurt Russia greatly economically and definitely escalate the situation. I don't know well enough which trade agreements or treaties would be violated in doing so.


I think it's simply apparently that we've underpriced geopolitical risk.
Being dependent on Russia for oil is showing to be VERY expensive to Europe right now.

I'm sure we'll eventually realize that being dependent on China for Rare Earth metals, Pharmaceuticals and a lot of our manufacturing, particularly electronics might also turn out to be very expensive.

As far as globalization, it's here.
I think the role of governments is to ensure that they adequately handle strategic resources.
Also for us to be as strong as possible, really someone is going to have to have a stick, and hopefully they're benevolent. But since there are no guarantees, lets at least put together a good team of hopefully not evil people/nations.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Speaking of the war, I wish to express my profound respect for the Ukranian people for fighting in this war.

So many countries cry out for the US to fight their wars for them. Ukraine has earned my deepest respect. I find myself wanting to help them any way I can. I will certainly donate.

I hope we offer a home to displaced Ukrainians. I would far rather them than more Indians who obstained from the in security counsel vote to denounce the invasion.

Sanction India, China, and the UAE.


----------



## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> I hope we offer a home to displaced Ukrainians. I would far rather them than more Indians who obstained from the in security counsel vote to denounce the invasion.
> 
> Sanction India, China, and the UAE.











Ukraine crisis: Why India abstained on UN vote against Russia - National | Globalnews.ca


Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in his telephone conversation with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday appealed for an “immediate cessation of violence.”




globalnews.ca





Imagine if Canada had a better pipe for oil/gas.....


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

afulldeck said:


> Ukraine crisis: Why India abstained on UN vote against Russia - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in his telephone conversation with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday appealed for an “immediate cessation of violence.”
> ...


Imagine if Canada invested more in green renewable energy.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

afulldeck said:


> Imagine if Canada had a better pipe for oil/gas.....


Lmao!

ZING!

I don't laugh at online humor very often but you hit that one out of Yellowstone park.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

fstamand said:


> Imagine if Canada invested more in green renewable energy.


My imagination tells me that would do nothing to supply home heating to Europe.

I'm a big green energy guy but I don't see how that would help Germany, one bit. Germany made a massive political miscalculation with Nord Stream.

Green is a future solution but we also need to not freeze to death today.

Speaking of which, the Liberal carbon tax is causing power companies to go nuclear. Solar and wind projects are only a stop gap. I doubt solar collection will be idled any time soon but wind will be, as generation ages. At least, this is how it's going in Western Canada.

Oddly, I am OK with the carbon tax. I don't like it but I respect the Liberal government for doing something. Meanwhile, I have lost respect for conservatives who pretend there is no problem. We can live with nuclear. We cannot live with coal, so this is a profound improvement. But yeah, no nuclear solution has ever cost sticker price. Nuclear has the appearance of being acquired through a path of bribery and corruption, then letting rate payers deal with the mess of core changes and disposal.

Conservative = small, respectful, non-flashy, right sized, appropriate response to the problem

It's a shame that, in politics, conservative has come to mean anti-science, anti-everything.

People who would like responsible fiscal management and minimal imposition of social order are not represented by any party.

Tom's political pplatform: Let gay people marry, work toward reduction of environmental damage, create a just society, and stop spending money like 14 year old girls.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

TomB16 said:


> Tom's political pplatform: Let gay people marry, work toward reduction of environmental damage, create a just society, and stop spending money like 14 year old girls.


Totally.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

fstamand said:


> Totally.


Quality response! lmao!

You just gagged me with a spoon.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

FWIW, I still think we could use the Energy East pipeline and I'd like to see a bit faster uptake on green energy, also.

To be honest, I think green energy is something that should be worked on actively but not rushed. It could be faster but we are moving forward at a reasonable pace.

Research has perovskite panels producing at about 24% efficiency. This is profound. While more research is good, improving cost per watt will be incremental, from here on out.

Now we need storage to evolve, although it is coming along nicely.

Also, we need installations to be standardized and facilitated such that permit costs are and labor are far more reasonable than they currently are. That is going to require plug and play designs that eliminate the engineering cost that is tagged to every single install.

To be honest, I'm not sure why Tesla isn't working on this. They should have a load center for new builds that enables direct plug in of a power wall with a standard cable. On the other hand, it's not like they have been twiddling their thumbs...


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Russia/China are playing 3D chess

They have been very clear they don't like the petrodollar system but there was no catalyst to shift the markets away from it. The west is about to block them from the entire western economy - oh except we still want to buy your energy with our petrodollars. Spasibo

Now watch Russia turn off the pipelines to Europe.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> I saw your previous post. I don't want to send money because, in one week time, Russia will get it.
> 
> Were it not for that, I would.
> 
> If you are heading over to fight, how can I help you directly? Do you have everything you need?


I think you underestimate Ukrainians.
My brother in Ukraine enquired about joining forces, he was told there’s waiting list tens of thousands people, and armed forces prefer someone with combat experience or at least military training. Forces need an asset (soldiers), not a liability (newbie got wounded in fist battle).
If you want to help than you help. I help directly through Ukrainian national bank. Link I posted previously.
Here’s some ideas from different forum. 

1. Call your local cable provider, check if they offer Russian channels. This is the biggest link to disinformation. Checked with Rogers locally, apparently they no longer do it.
2. Lobby your MP for heavier sanctions. We've done well, but we can do much more
3. Check your local grocery stores and bring to attention of store manager "made in Russia items". Specifically so in GTA area, due to dense Russian population. North York, Toronto, Richmond Hill, Vaughan and anywhere else you can find it. More so check anything you buy, do not buy "made in Russia"
4. Do not retweet or share questionable posts online. Report all YouTube, Twitter Facebook posts by Russian channels ex "Russia 24, NTV, 1st Russian channel, etc."
5. Donation sites like red cross have donations available for Ukraine, but I don't believe this one is a priority now. I've heard from sources within, they have plenty for now. Still, if you can give anything, all Ukrainians, including myself are thankful for your support

Any support really that you can provide is greatly appreciated, even if just a useful idea.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I think you underestimate Ukrainians.


You are correct. I did underestimate Ukrainians.

I am proud to donate and will do so again.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Alexandre Krauss, a policy advisor to members of Renew Europe, a "pro-European political group in the European Parliament," has written on Twitter these jets, whatever they might be, will be "flying in Ukraine [sic] skies within the hour." He did not elaborate further on what type of jets would be included in the Europe Union's military air package or who would be flying them in Ukrainian skies shortly.








Here Are The Options For The EU's Initiative To Restock Ukraine With Fighter Jets (Updated)


A few EU countries still have jets similar to ones that Ukraine flies, which would allow them to be rushed into combat.




www.thedrive.com





*Former Ukraine president confirms the 'Ghost of Kyiv' is real*









Former Ukraine president confirms the 'Ghost of Kyiv' is real


As it turns out, the so called 'Ghost of Kyiv' is actually real! There are now various official sources that have confirmed his existence and some even shared a picture of him. For




www.marca.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Another reputable website I believe for those who can/want to help.








Donate to Canadian Charities Online | CanadaHelps


Canada’s best destination for donating and fundraising online.




www.canadahelps.org


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I like the way you are scoring it like a video game. It's fitting for the times but my stomach gets tight when I watch video from the fighting.

This conflict also shines some light into the news scene. CNN and MSNBC are a monster embarrassment. Watching Euro news is such a breath of fresh air. Western corruption/stupidifcation is heartbreaking.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

These countries decided to hand over their fighter jets to Ukraine.
⭕⭕⭕
Bulgaria (Mig-29) 16 pcs
Bulgaria (Su-25) 14 pcs
Poland (Mig-29) 28 pcs
Slovakia (Mig-29) 12 pcs
⭕⭕⭕
It is possible that the aircraft will be based at the Polish airport, from which Ukrainian pilots will carry out combat tasks.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Alexandre Krauss, a policy advisor to members of Renew Europe, a "pro-European political group in the European Parliament," has written on Twitter these jets, whatever they might be, will be "flying in Ukraine [sic] skies within the hour." He did not elaborate further on what type of jets would be included in the Europe Union's military air package or who would be flying them in Ukrainian skies shortly.


They've mentioned donating MiG-29s since Ukraine has crews to fly them. Poland has operational MiG-29 (former East German)

I'm not involved in NATO anymore but they'd have to fly them into Ukraine to deliver them which would be impossible for most modern fighter jets now. MiG-29s are have a very unique feature to block their air intakes for debris on airstrips. Any newer jet would blow an engine from any tiny debris

Polish MiG-29 with closed intakes










If NATO was going to conduct air operations you'll see news about a "No Fly Zone" first. That would be a massive escalation


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Sanction India, China, and the UAE.


Can't do it.
China controls too much of both mass market, and specific products.

They make a lot of our consumer goods.
They make a lot of our electronics.
China and India make a lot of our medical supplies.
China controls rare earth metals.

Then don't forget China has been heavily funding development in Africa. We really can't sanction them without disasterous effects to our economies.
Plus the US can't fight Russian and China at the same time, and they're both nuclear powers.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> These countries decided to hand over their fighter jets to Ukraine.
> ⭕⭕⭕
> Bulgaria (Mig-29) 16 pcs
> Bulgaria (Su-25) 14 pcs
> ...


Operating out of Poland would make a lot more sense

Unfortunately I don't think we can air refuel them and MiG-29 doesn't have much endurance especially in a combat config

MiG-29 is heavily dependent on having AWACS support and NATO could provide that (although we've never trained together)


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> With air superiority and a heavy armour advantage , Russia can easily overrun most of the Ukraine.
> A few small arms are mostly useless, *we're not even sending anti-tank weapons.*


NOW we decide to send the anti-tank weapons. Brilliant

"Defence Minister Anita Anand said Canada is sending *100 Carl-Gustaf anti-tank weapons systems and 2,000 rockets* — ammunition for the shoulder-mounted weapons — from the Canadian Armed Forces inventory. 

Canada to ban Russian oil imports, send anti-tank weapons and ammunition to Ukraine, says Trudeau


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> NOW we decide to send the anti-tank weapons. Brilliant
> 
> "Defence Minister Anita Anand said Canada is sending *100 Carl-Gustaf anti-tank weapons systems and 2,000 rockets* — ammunition for the shoulder-mounted weapons — from the Canadian Armed Forces inventory.
> 
> Canada to ban Russian oil imports, send anti-tank weapons and ammunition to Ukraine, says Trudeau


We aren't sending anti-tank weapons.

The 84mm Carl Gustav isn't an effective anti-tank weapon, hasn't been for decades.
https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/318/192/harvey.pdf (page 8)

The 84 against a MBT is like taking tylenol for COVID, might make you feel better, but isn't going to help you much.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

I only see three outcomes:


Russia retreats (not likely).
Sanctions and the fall of the rubble creates a Russian civil war (and/or coup)
Putin presses the red button and the west joins the party ☠☠


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> We aren't sending anti-tank weapons.


I suppose Canada sends thoughts and prayers wasn't clickbait enough for Trudeau sponsored media

Even 100 modern day ATGM with 2000 missiles would be token (and late) Russia still has 1000s of MBTs in reserve


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fstamand said:


> Putin presses the red button and the west joins the party ☠☠


Well nuclear weapons come in many varieties. Russia has low yield, short range nukes and I think it's possible they may use them in Ukraine. With a single strike, they can take out a whole quarter of a city.

It's not like Putin presses the red button and ICBMs fly and global nuclear war starts. Rather, he would nuke something in Ukraine first.

Let's hope it doesn't come to that. I'll admit that I'm anxious about it. And Putin is being backed into a corner, which could mean "he has nothing to lose"... I don't like it.

Generally, it's a bad idea to corner a dangerous animal, when he's about as powerful as you are. Not a good strategy. The US allies have used incredible economic warfare tools to back Putin into a corner.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Putin is being backed into a corner, which could mean "he has nothing to lose"... I don't like it.


Hah ? Backed in the corner? Ukrainian army surrounded Moscow? Kremlin is being bombarded? 
all he has to do is get out of Ukraine 🇺🇦 and stop killing people


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Hah ? Backed in the corner? Ukrainian army surrounded Moscow? Kremlin is being bombarded?
> all he has to do is get out of Ukraine 🇺🇦 and stop killing people


No I don't mean on the ground. I mean the west has crippled Russia with financial sanctions. So the country is on the brink of collapse.

I hope he gets the message that he should get out of Ukraine. That would be the sensible thing to do; to withdraw.

But he's an overly aggressive person, and perhaps not very sensible, so I worry that he may respond differently to the economic war that was launched against him. Instead of withdrawing he may amp it up... especially since he doesn't have much to lose now. It's looking like Russia may be obliterated (economically) in any case.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> he doesn't have much to lose now.


Putin is ridiculously wealthy individual, he knows how to live and enjoy life. I don’t think he is suicidal. 
Plus Putin has two daughters, Mariya and Yekaterina. All his generals have children as well.
Does he they really wish death to his their children?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Putin is ridiculously wealthy individual, he knows how to live and enjoy life. I don’t think he is suicidal.
> Plus Putin has two daughters, Mariya and Yekaterina. All his generals have children as well.
> Does he they really wish death to his their children?


OK then let's hope he hasn't totally lost his mind, and actually wants a good life for his children.

If he's rational, now that he sees the west will force the collapse of Russia, he will hopefully withdraw or agree to a ceasefire. I think the west is demonstrating that they are capable of collapsing Russia, without firing a shot. Plus of course all the weapons being sent into Ukraine, which will continue. Canada is sending weapons too.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> OK then let's hope he hasn't totally lost his mind, and actually wants a good life for his children.
> 
> If he's rational, now that he sees the west will force the collapse of Russia, he will hopefully withdraw or agree to a ceasefire. I think the west is demonstrating that they are capable of collapsing Russia, without firing a shot. Plus of course all the weapons being sent into Ukraine, which will continue. Canada is sending weapons too.


Being weak and humilated may or may not be a worse fate in his eyes.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

james4beach said:


> OK then let's hope he hasn't totally lost his mind, and actually wants a good life for his children.
> 
> If he's rational, now that he sees the west will force the collapse of Russia, he will hopefully withdraw or agree to a ceasefire. I think the west is demonstrating that they are capable of collapsing Russia, without firing a shot. Plus of course all the weapons being sent into Ukraine, which will continue. Canada is sending weapons too.


But he hasn't asked for help from China (yet), that could get ugly fast I would say.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Lukashenko plans Moldova invasion as Belarus President releases secret military plans

The President of Belarus addressed his security council today with a map of Ukraine that appeared to show planned troop movements and infrastructure targets. The map also has Ukraine divided into four parts. The map also shows Moldova's breakaway region, Transnistria, being targetted too.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Being weak and humilated may or may not be a worse fate in his eyes.


That's kind of what I worry about. He's being humiliated right now. Once the great USSR, now their massive army faces significant casualties from the Ukrainians. I'll bet the Russians didn't even think they'd encounter resistance!

The Russian financial system has been hit with air strikes (figuratively) and is collapsing. Every day Putin continues this war, the Russian people will be forced further into poverty.

So he's being humiliated. I worry he might say -- so they're going to finish me are they? Well to hell with the world, and then he uses his arsenal. That's what scares me.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Well to hell with the world, and then he uses his arsenal.


Remember he has two daughters. 
if that’s is not enough to stop the psychopath. His generals ( who also got families)will finish him.
I believe in Vietnam and Korean Americans and Russians/Soviets fought each other and no one started a nuclear war. Why this time should be different?


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> That's what scares me.


We all going to die one day.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> if that’s is not enough to stop the psychopath. His generals ( who also got families)will finish him.


I hope so man. Hope his generals take care of this. If they want a good future for the Russian people, they have to retreat.



Ukrainiandude said:


> We all going to die one day.


Hey I'm just getting started. So are the young Ukrainians and young Russians... why should we all suffer because of some crazy old men and their power trips?

The Russian people (young generation) deserves better as well. Some 25 year old Russian has their whole life ahead of them, and they shouldn't suffer because a circle of powerful old Soviet men are clinging to fantasies of their glory days and delusions of empire.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> The Russian people (young generation) deserves better as well. Some 25 year old Russian has their whole life ahead of them, and they shouldn't suffer because a circle of powerful old Soviet men are clinging to fantasies of their glory days and delusions of empire.


How old do you think russsian conscripts 18-20 years old boys, brainwashed by propaganda.
Why only several hundreds went on the streets? If one million out of 140 m rus go on streets the war will end. But russians are too scared and too indifferent.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I would like to watch Vladimir Putin die in fire, knowing he spent the last two weeks of his life unsuccessfully trying to pry a popcorn husk out of one of his incisors.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Results of Kyiv tower missile strike by russians.

[Moderator] removed disturbing image with dead bodies. If you really want to see it, you can click here to view it


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

@Ukrainiandude I moved the image you posted off site. Please keep image posts "PG rated" and instead, link to an external site or news article


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The Russian Ruble currently trades at 109 to the $. As recently as mid February it was 75.

That's a stunningly fast 30% collapse in the currency... that kind of FX move is catastrophic.

Here's a chart of the inverse. Each Ruble is now worth less than one American cent. Watch the Russian economy collapse before your eyes.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Russian Soldiers Looting Ukrainian Shops


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'll take a T-90 for 1 BTC

Anonymous Offers Russian Soldiers Over $50K Worth of Bitcoin for Each Surrendered Tank


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

The 30% collapse tells me the market does not have confidence in the sanctions holding.

Russia will have little trouble circumventing the sanctions, in part, using Bitcoin. Also, I share the skepticism with regard to the Wests ability to maintain the sanctions and drive the Russian economy into the ground. I've come to expect the least from our political system and I've often been too optimistic.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

No T-90 crew took my 1 BTC offer but I am now the proud owner of a SAM system. My bunker now has more air defence capability than the entire Canadian country


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

More than 2,000 civilian deaths in Ukraine reported.

Last night, President Biden told America and Ukraine that Russia will occupy Ukraine.

Zelenski should leave to spare the loss of innocent life. It is only going to get worse for Ukrainians.......a lot worse.

The US military estimates that Russia has lost 3% of their military resources and Ukraine has lost 10% of their resources.

Russia can resupply but Ukraine is unable to move anything due to air space control by Russia.

The Russians are destroying any Ukrainian replacement military equipment being moved towards the battle zones from the air.

Putin won't live forever and the financial pressure on Russians may force his ouster. The goal now is to stop the carnage.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> Russia will have little trouble circumventing the sanctions, in part, using Bitcoin. Also, I share the skepticism with regard to the Wests ability to maintain the sanctions and drive the Russian economy into the ground. I've come to expect the least from our political system and I've often been too optimistic.


This is a misconception purported by karen boomers who don't understand how the modern digital world works.

In the US, sanctions must be authorized by the President in an executive order or by Congress in legislation. The Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) designates specific targets for sanctions: individuals, companies, governments, etc. OFAC adds targets to the Specially Designated Nationals And Blocked Persons (SDN) List

US sanctions deprive SDNs of access to the US economy by making it illegal for US persons to transact with them. SDNs can't buy US goods or services, sell products to US markets, own US property, etc. "US person" means every US individual, company, etc. all over the world - the law prohibits direct & indirect transactions, plus "facilitation"

Crypto is far easier to track than fiat because every transaction is public and easily traceable. If you've been paying attention the governments that require KYC have had great success of tracking criminals. The transparency of public ledgers and the analytics capabilities of US forensics firms makes it futile.

Putin spent years preparing to sanctions-proof Russia and crypto isn't part of the plan. The strategy includes diversifying Russia's reserves into yuan and gold, shifting trade to Asia, bringing manufacturing onshore, etc. If Russia wants an alternative, they're far more likely to use China's CIPS than a public network they can't control.

The Elizabeth Warrens, @sags and rest of the karen boomers need to stop moaning about things they have no clue about


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> The 30% collapse tells me the market does not have confidence in the sanctions holding.


 The exchange rate basically frozen, foreign investors can’t take their money out of russia, ordinary people in russia can’t buy dollars or euros. 
You can look at Iran exchange rates, official and black markets.
Russian largest state owned bank is better example.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

TomB16 said:


> Russia will have little trouble circumventing the sanctions, in part, using Bitcoin.


Uhh, no.
Every single bitcoin transaction is posted, publicly, in realtime to the world.
Bitcoin is arguably the easiest system to monitor for violators.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Please explain to us how the transfer of funds using Bitcoin will be blocked, MrMattBot2000?

This ought to be entertaining.

Imo, the problem with Bitcoin transfer is the scale is not enough to handle Russia's economy. It will be difficult to find enough people to sell enough btc to move the needle. Still, its something and western financial systems are designed to be leaky.

Even the front runners who skim on the majority of our transactions are anecdotally made up of a large amount of Russian born men.

I've long wondered how much of the Bitcoin and market skimming is sponsored by the Russian state and how much are Russian mercenaries. Of course, I don't know. Looks like we are going to find out.

The FTC may be forced to clean up market corruption if they want to fight a financial war with Russia. What a shame that would be.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> Please explain to us how the transfer of funds using Bitcoin will be blocked, MrMattBot2000?
> 
> This ought to be entertaining.


They can't block bitcoin as there is no President of bitcoin

The President of the United States can make it illegal for *US persons* to transact or facilitate transactions with anyone on the SDN list. Western states can only block people and companies within their own jurisdiction from transacting with Russians. It doesn't matter if they transact in sea shells or dogecoins

Russia is free to transact in bitcoin or mexicantomcoin with China, Iran or any other nation that has not sanctioned them. But China probably prefers Yuan and gold so that is what they'll use. Any US person communicating and transacting with sanctioned persons would use an untraceable currency like fiat

So apparently we need to ban fiat? Boomers


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

MrMatt said:


> Every single bitcoin transaction is posted, publicly, in realtime to the world.


Sure. And the beneficial owner of every wallet is not.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

gardner said:


> Sure. And the beneficial owner of every wallet is not.


As long as they don't touch it.

The reality is fiat is much harder to track. Your digital life is very easy for a capable government to track or contract someone to track. You could go to great lengths to cover all your tracks but it's very easy to slip up in so many ways. Fiat is much easier to hide

One only has to look at how government is tracking crypto crime already. They even state in their reports the criminals who use crypto are making it easier than waiting for legacy/international banks to comply to requests. It's not advertised for a reason

Think about it for a second


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)




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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

m3s said:


> Your digital life is very easy for a capable government to track or contract someone to track.


This is why there are no ransomware cyberattackers and the perpetrators have all been caught and prosecuted.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

gardner said:


> This is why there are no ransomware cyberattackers and the perpetrators have all been caught and prosecuted.


Ok boomer

Colonial Pipeline ransomware attack
"On June 7, the Department of Justice announced that it had recovered 63.7 of the bitcoins (approximately $2.3 million) from the ransom payment."

I recently listened to a 2hr podcast about how ransomware and cyber hacks can be tracked. It's all a cat and mouse game but the financial intelligence analysts love crypto not the other way around. The crypto public ledger is immutable. You could get nailed for crime anytime in the future as forensic tools improve..

Boomers don't have attention spans beyond CNN or Fox sound bite echo chambers


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A small silver lining, farmers in SK & MB may benefit from these soaring grain prices.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> A small silver lining, farmers in SK & MB may benefit from these soaring grain prices.


Much of that grain is currently shipped to Asia, so prices may hurt China if they need to buy from Canada.

Russia may be able to supply China, so it may not be as beneficial as it seems.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> Much of that grain is currently shipped to Asia, so prices may hurt China if they need to buy from Canada.
> 
> Russia may be able to supply China, so it may not be as beneficial as it seems.


How is our food self sufficiency? Does Canada produce enough grains to feed ourselves?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Ukraine and Ukrainians want US dollars........not buttcoin.

Crypto is useless in a war because you can't buy anything you need with it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Ukraine and Ukrainians want US dollars........not buttcoin.
> 
> Crypto is useless in a war because you can't buy anything you need with it.


You realize the banks shut down on day one. I've actually been in conflict zones

The Ukrainian government has the largest known public treasury of about $2.5B digital assets and posted their crypto addresses on twitter and received about $30M in various crypto so far (edit now $50M and growing fast)

Ukraine has one of the highest adoption rates of crypto in the world. Russia and Canada are also increasing lately with governments starting to control finances of people they politically dislike

Stop repeatedly yapping about stuff you know nothing about saggyman.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

sags said:


> Ukraine and Ukrainians want US dollars........not buttcoin.
> 
> Crypto is useless in a war because you can't buy anything you need with it.


We were talking about Russia's ability to get around the sanctions. If they have a bunch of Bitcoin, they may be able to sell it to grade 9 students in the US who trade Bitcoin to get rich quickly so they can purchase acne ointment. That would yield US dollars. They would have to use a non-frozen account, under the radar, but it could be done and yield US currency.

It would probably have to be a non-US exchange, also. I assume authorities monitor large transactions but there are Chinese exchanges and we know China is sympathetic to Russia. Even if they could convert Bitcoin to Chinese Yuan, they could buy a lot of unusable, knock-off merchandise on Alibaba.

The Russian economy is worth over 1T USD so there isn't enough prepubescent youth to convert the entire economy to BTC but they only need to convert a portion of that to stay liquid so it might move the needle. Many billions of USD worth of Bitcoin trade each month.

If that happens, we should see a very significant dip in BTC valuations. * Trader alert


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> That would yield US dollars. They would have to use a non-frozen account, under the radar, but *it could be done* and yield US currency


Many billion BTC are exchanged per day not month

They could exchange whatever they have for USD anywhere in the world they aren't sanctioned if they want USD. That doesn't improve their sanction situation

Go sip a mezcal on the beach and leave hijacking the financial world order to the kids


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> We were talking about Russia's ability to get around the sanctions. If they have a bunch of Bitcoin, they may be able to sell it to grade 9 students in the US who trade Bitcoin to get rich quickly so they can purchase acne ointment. That would yield US dollars. They would have to use a non-frozen account, under the radar, but it could be done and yield US currency.
> 
> It would probably have to be a non-US exchange, also. I assume authorities monitor large transactions but there are Chinese exchanges and we know China is sympathetic to Russia. Even if they could convert Bitcoin to Chinese Yuan, they could buy a lot of unusable, knock-off merchandise on Alibaba.
> 
> ...


Maybe the crypto hoodies can ask their parents for an advance on their allowance so they can buy bitcoin from an exchange in Somalia.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Meanwhile in the real world, the US announced they are closely inspecting crypto transactions to prevent skirting around sanctions.

This war could be the beginning of the end for non-regulated crypto.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> It would probably have to be a non-US exchange, also. I assume authorities monitor large transactions but there are Chinese exchanges and we know China is sympathetic to Russia. Even if they could convert Bitcoin to Chinese Yuan, they could buy a lot of unusable, knock-off merchandise on Alibaba.


I see you edited your post with more uninformed knowledge

I guess you didn't hear that China announced jail time for anyone who transacts in crypto. China hates crypto because it circumvents their social credit scoring system

Do you want us to emulate China?



sags said:


> Meanwhile in the real world, the US announced they are closely inspecting crypto transactions to prevent skirting around sanctions.
> 
> This war could be the beginning of the end for non-regulated crypto.


Do you even realize how you contradict yourself

First you say crypto will be used to skirt sanctions and then you say it will be regulated. So what is it? It will be regulated or it will be used to skirt around sanctions

How did our epidemiologist experts become financial crime experts so fast


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Canada is banning Russian and Belarussian teenagers from the CHL

This boomer cancel culture reminds me of how we treated american asians in the 50s

Not every Russian teenager is the future Hitler ffs


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> Not every Russian teenager is the future Hitler ffs


Perhaps they [teens and parents] should go on the streets and tell this Russian government?


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




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## accord1999 (Aug 9, 2013)

james4beach said:


> How is our food self sufficiency? Does Canada produce enough grains to feed ourselves?


Canada's usually in the 2-4 position for wheat exports. Yields have grown so much that more land can be dedicated to more profitable crops like canola and soybean. 









Last year was the first bad harvest in a long time and even that was still over 70 megatons.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

m3s said:


> Canada is banning Russian and Belarussian teenagers from the CHL
> 
> This boomer cancel culture reminds me of how we treated american asians in the 50s
> 
> Not every Russian teenager is the future Hitler ffs


It's the message they are sending to Putin that matters.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

fstamand said:


> It's the message they are sending to Putin that matters.


Now Americans are vandalizing Russian small businesses that have been in my local area for decades. They came here to escape Putin

Cancel culture is problematic. Not unlike authoritarian governments freezing bank accounts of those they dislike

Those who cheer them on are just as bad. Boomer karens everywhere nowadays


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

How are Canadian air defences? Can they prevent this happening to Canadian condos?
Kyiv’s suburban area


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Can they prevent this happening to Canadian condos?


No, but an attack of this kind could only originate within Canada, which we kind of already control -- or in the USA, in which case resistance would quite literally be futile.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Sea/air launched cruise missiles can originate from outside of Canadian controlled territory/water. Ballistic/hypersonic missiles can originate from much further

Canada did not sign on to missile defence with the US so they did not give us any. We have no air or missile defence. We have a NORAD north warning radar system

The report below from 2014 pre-dates hypersonic glide missiles



> Canada cannot simply assume that all of its territory will be protected by default under the existing U.S. BMD system. Because Canada is not a BMD participant, decisions on when, where and whether to intercept an incoming ballistic missile would be made not under the auspices of the binational NORAD structure but, rather, by the U.S. alone under its domestic defence command, United States Northern Command (USNORTHCOM).
> 
> In an attack on North America using a plane, a fighter jet or a cruise missile, the committee was told that Canada is a full and equal partner in a seamless command structure within NORAD to defend our region. If that attack was from a ballistic missile, Canada is not a participant.
> 
> The committee is concerned that our military officials at NORAD will be asked to “leave the room” when it comes to determining how to deal with a ballistic missile attack that threatens Canada or North America.


Canada and Ballistic Missile Defence: Responding to the evolving threat (2014)

*The committee is unanimous in recommending that the Government of Canada enter into an agreement with the United States to participate as a partner in ballistic missile defence.*


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think it's unacceptable to harass regular Russian citizens.

On the other hand, we should identify children of the oligarch families and Putin's circle, and seize their real estate. These people always hang out in London, New York City, Vancouver, Toronto where they own condos and enjoy the good life... funded by money they stole from the Russian people.

Similar to the children of Chinese Communist Party members. They also stole/embezzled public money from China, and their kids have lots of fun spending it in Vancouver, buying condos, etc.

I would even be in favour of seizing those condos, liquidating them, and then returning the funds to the people of China and Russia perhaps through a charity or non-profit which makes sure the money goes to the hungry, etc. We can even include little post cards saying: "we seized this money from the corrupt leaders of your country and are returning it to you"


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US shadows all foreign enemies in the sea anywhere near North America.

If a ship or submarine fired off a missile into Canada, it would be the last thing they do.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My wife's uncle was a career military officer and a "radio tech". He was deployed all over but we visited him at a base at Alsask, Alberta.

It was a "dew line" listening post base from the Cold War era. He took us on a tour of the base to the room where they listened to Russian pilots 24 hours a day.

He also was deployed to build the 4 story underground "Diefenbaker bunker" in Ottawa in 1957-1961 during the Cold War.

Apparently it is a museum now, but I wonder if the bunker could still be used in case of emergency.









Diefenbunker - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> The US shadows all foreign enemies in the sea anywhere near North America.
> 
> If a ship or submarine fired off a missile into Canada, it would be the last thing they do.


No wonder we don't have a reasonable defence budget if the typical Canadian thinks like sags. Spreading misinformation is a disservice to us all

The ocean is huge and we have a few sub hunters with limited flight time and range. CSA did recently get 3 radarsats that should detect unexpected ships in the north.



sags said:


> My wife's uncle was career military officer and a "radio tech". He was deployed all over but we visited him at a base at Alsask, Alberta.
> 
> It was a "dew line" listening post base from the Cold War era. He took us on a tour of the base to the room where they listened to Russian pilots 24 hours a day.
> 
> He also was deployed to build the "Diefenbaker bunker" in Ottawa in 1964 during the Cold War. I wonder if the bunker is still in use.


Maybe he was a comms officer because tech is different. Alsask wasn't on the DEW line. It was on the Pinetree line

I visited many of the abandoned radar sites. Alsask is probably in the best shape and opened as a museum recently. Some of the sites are pretty interesting view point. Most of them are just foundations

Diefenbunker also apparently opened as a museum


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Russians now attacking largest nuclear powerplant in Zaporizhzhia. Apparently there's was a fire that's now contained. I really hope we don't see another Chernobyl.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Russia is also supplying Ukraine. T-80BVM upgraded since 2017


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t5v94l


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fstamand said:


> Russians now attacking largest nuclear powerplant in Zaporizhzhia. Apparently there's was a fire that's now contained. I really hope we don't see another Chernobyl.


Just posted by Global









Russia’s capture of Europe’s largest nuclear plant in Ukraine raises global alarm - National | Globalnews.ca


Ukrainian authorities reported Russian troops were stepping up efforts to seize the plant, which accounts for about one quarter of Ukraine’s power generation.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> I think it's unacceptable to harass regular Russian citizens


Please watch this video, of Kyiv suburban streets. And tell us more about harassing.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Just posted by Global
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well Ukraine asked multiple times to provide a no fly zone. The “allies” refused. Europe could be rendered uninhabitable. What is unexpected here?


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

james4beach said:


> Just posted by Global
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If Russians succeed in blowing up nuclear plants (in this case the damage would be almost 10x the size of Chernobyl) I fear it's game over.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A meltdown of this nuclear plant would be 10 times worse than Chernobyl.

Ukraine should surrender the nuclear plant to the Russians to avoid an accident.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Please watch this video, of Kyiv suburban streets. And tell us more about harassing.


Apparently Putin justifies this by saying they are giving civilians safe passage (true, they are letting unarmed civilians pass) and that Ukraine soldiers are staging in the top floors


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Russian military equipment now spotted on rail in Khabarovsk on the complete other side of Russia

This indicates that Russia underestimated Ukraine but they have deep reserves


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> Russian military equipment now spotted on rail in Khabarovsk on the complete other side of Russia
> 
> This indicates that Russia underestimated Ukraine but they have deep reserves


Japan and China should use the moment to get Kuril island and Sibyria.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> And tell us more about harassing.


Well I meant the average citizens. There's no question that Putin, his circle, and the military commanders are monsters.

But there are 144 million people living in Russia. I'm sure many of them don't even support Putin. He's a dictator and they live in an oppressive regime. In fact, they may rise up against him because of this war.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> But there are 144 million people living in Russia. I'm sure many of them don't even support Putin. He's a dictator and they live in an oppressive regime. In fact, they may rise up against him because of this war


Keep believing that. I read russian forums, even YouTube channels comments, russian people are brainwashed severely. maybe 5-10% are adequate.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

gardner said:


> No, but an attack of this kind could only originate within Canada, which we kind of already control -- or in the USA, in which case resistance would quite literally be futile.


Maybe the next freedom rally?


😁


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> But there are 144 million people living in Russia. I'm sure many of them don't even support Putin. He's a dictator and they live in an oppressive regime. In fact, they may rise up against him because of this war.


James, I apologize but I need to support UD on this. Perhaps a decade ago, I would have known you are correct.

A good ratio of people who watch Fox News think Biden is an election rigging criminal, Obama implemented the highest tax increase in history, and Hillary runs an underground railroad shipping children into sex slavery from a pizza parlor. That statement, while ridiculous, is not hyperbolic.

As best I can tell, Fox could announce that big bird is real and people would believe it.

Now, imagine if fox was the only station.....

I'm sure a few people know what is going on but the power of the occult is bigly huge.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Next thing russia will invade Baltic countries, and threaten nato with nukes if nato interferes. 
Give us country or will we nuke you. Can nato say no to this? Perhaps it’s time act now. Grow pair of balls and give russia the ultimatum “no fly zone over ukraine“, suck it up. Believe me russia will do nothing but comply.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

russian tanks. How do you ID the crew members?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Keep believing that. I read russian forums, even YouTube channels comments, russian people are brainwashed severely. maybe 5-10% are adequate.


OK so maybe I have really misunderstood what's happening in Russia.

Are you saying that a huge amount of the Russian population is on board with Putin's aggression towards Europe?

@TomB16 is that what you meant as well? I just want to make sure I understand your point properly.

(I have met Russians living in the US and they all seemed very pro-Europe but it's possible that these were the very rare "westernized" Russians, plus of course they chose to come to the USA)


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Are you saying that a huge amount of the Russian population is on board with Putin's aggression towards Europe?


Exactly. It is called “special operation” in russia. State media is making sure of this. Opposition media is virtually non existent. All access to alternative information sources is blocked. People are brainwashed 24/7.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Interesting article on how the UK is stepping up efforts to seize London properties owned by oligarchs.

It's behind a pay wall so I'll post the text here with some parts bolded. It's relevant to Canada too because we have the same kind of things going in, including secretive corporations owning properties. It also happens with organized crime and money laundering.

​*You Can't Just Take a Russian Oligarch's London Townhouse*​Reforms will help the government challenge their source of wealth. But will this lead to more assets being seized?​​It has taken Russia’s invasion of Ukraine for the U.K. to pursue more concerted action against the flow of dirty money through the City of London and the capital’s property market. Government reforms announced on Monday focused on lifting the veil of secrecy around corrupt real-estate ownership. These are just the first steps toward potentially seizing assets — but the steps are significant.​​Multimillion-pound properties in London have proved a convenient and safe place to stash Russian fortunes. Hereon, anonymous foreign beneficiaries of U.K. real estate will face restrictions on selling if they hide behind shell companies. Whether these changes lead to a sudden outbreak of transparency in the property sector remains to be seen.​​Assuming the chain of ownership extends to trusts in offshore jurisdictions, the U.K. would still appear reliant on cooperation from those overseas authorities. And the first line of legal defense will be to argue that the suspect properties are indeed owned by corporate entities rather than individuals – just as the big banks and consulting firms own houses for client meetings.​​*If the success of those measures is doubtful, one related change could make a more substantial difference: the new regime for “unexplained wealth orders,” whereby the U.K. National Crime Agency forces people to demonstrate they obtained suspect wealth legitimately.*​​While these are a conceivably valuable weapon in the fight against money laundering, their effectiveness so far has been limited. Cases are necessarily tortuous as they involve delving into history and unpicking opaque legal structures.​​Legal resources matter here: the targets’ pockets are deep, and they can afford to throw money at securing the best-resourced law firms and slickest advocates in a legal war of attrition. For the government, the stakes are high. Failing in an unexplained wealth order has historically meant picking up the other side’s astronomical bill. That falls on a taxpayer purse already strained by the pandemic.​​But under the reforms, a U.K. law-enforcement agency will no longer automatically have to pay the other side’s costs if it loses. It just has to persuade the court the failed action was reasonable. That radically alters the economics and legal dynamics, and should enable the NCA to bring more cases.​​The tail wags the dog in U.K. litigation: The “loser pays” model means potential costs determine whether an action is bought in the first place. If one side can proceed with an effective indemnity, it changes the game.​​The key question now is whether more cases will lead to more wins — and, ultimately, to confiscation of assets. This could be a critical moment for the judiciary. Oligarchs will be aware that U.K. courts have historically been resistant to depriving people of property rights without strong justification. It’s an almost instinctive aversion. The distinction between a corporate and a human actor is also firmly entrenched. Both tenets are enablers of secret, indirect real-estate ownership; both now face challenge.​​Cabinet Minister Michael Gove is assessing how to seize British property owned by Russian oligarchs with links to Vladimir Putin without paying them compensation, but government lawyers are concerned about legal objections because this would undermine property rights, the Financial Times reported. Nevertheless, the political and legislative context is evolving rapidly. And that is likely to feed through to the courts.​​“The cornerstone of common law is that property rights are respected. I think that is changing,” says Jonathan Fisher, a visiting professor at the London School of Economics. “We have seen a number of cases where confiscation has been upheld in financial crime.” Judges may be willing to allow an erosion of property rights so long as it’s proportionate, he says.​​The courts will be busy, the arguments will be drawn-out and the so-called London laundromat will continue to generate fees for the legal teams involved. But outspending the government on lawyers may no longer be a viable strategy for those with something to hide.​​


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

After russian air raid and bombing of civilians. Disturbing video.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> OK so maybe I have really misunderstood what's happening in Russia.
> 
> Are you saying that a huge amount of the Russian population is on board with Putin's aggression towards Europe?
> 
> ...


I have friends in Russia and there is also lots of YouTubers/gamers talking about this online. The majority of Russians are tribal animals just like the majority of Americans. A small % speak out just like anywhere else

Think about how Americans cheered on the invasion of Iraq that was covered 24/7 by CNN. Meanwhile the UN condemned it and declared and illegal breach of charter. That's why Canada didn't support it.

Think about how CNN covered Iraq focused entirely on the heroics of the US soldiers who had record support at home, while ignoring the human suffering. Now look how the media is now focused on the human suffering of war in Ukraine.

Go look at Bagdad and tell me if it looks better than Kyiv

In Ukraine reporting, Western press reveals grim bias toward ‘people like us’


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I don't think other past conflicts measure up to this one.

A major difference in this conflict is the opponent has the largest nuclear weapon arsenal in the world and threatens to use it.

This conflict is more akin to the Cuban missile crisis when US President Kennedy, faced down a nuclear equipped Russia.

Conventional military responses are not possible in this conflict. Boots on the ground, no fly zones, are not possible under the threat of becoming involved in the conflct so Ukraine supporters are left with supplying weapons and humanitarian aid.

There are some "what if" questions being raised about what would happen if Russia said to NATO.....you are supplying Ukraine will weapons that will kill Russian soldiers, and it must stop or the situation will escalate.

What would NATO do then ? The fact that Putin hasn't already said that may reveal that he is bluffing.....but who wants to take the chance he isn't.

Nuclear weapons create a MAD deterrence, but they also mean conventional intervention against a nuclear equipped enemy is no longer possible.

If China decides to invade Taiwan, it is questionable if the world would decide to enter a thermal nuclear war to prevent it.

Small wonder countries like Iran and North Korea seek out possession of nuclear weapons. It virtually makes a country unchallenged.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> I don't think other past conflicts measure up to this one.
> 
> A major difference in this conflict is the opponent has the largest nuclear weapon arsenal in the world and threatens to use it.


Poxy wars are nothing new sags.

We supplied the resistance in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. They supplied the resistance in Vietnam against the Americans. We both supplied opposite sides in conflicts in China, Iran, Korea, all over South/Central America, Middle East, Africa

Basically every forgotten conflict in the 1900s



sags said:


> This conflict is more akin to the Cuban missile crisis when US President Kennedy, faced down a nuclear equipped Russia.
> 
> Conventional military responses are not possible in this conflict. Boots on the ground, no fly zones, are not possible under the threat of becoming involved in the conflct so Ukraine supporters are left with supplying weapons and humanitarian aid.


NATO moving into Ukraine is akin to a Cuban missile crisis to Russia.

It's even closer like China moving into Canada. These are example from the video I posted upthread from an actual geopolitical professor that you clearly didn't have attention span to watch and now you are pretending to be a geopolitical expert without doing any homework

Georgia was also supposed to join NATO. Go back and watch the video



sags said:


> There are some "what if" questions being raised about what would happen if Russia said to NATO.....you are supplying Ukraine will weapons that will kill Russian soldiers, and it must stop or the situation will escalate.
> 
> What would NATO do then ? The fact that Putin hasn't already said that may reveal that he is bluffing.....but who wants to take the chance he isn't.
> 
> Nuclear weapons create a MAD deterrence, but they also mean conventional intervention against a nuclear equipped enemy is no longer possible.


Not true. We've been in poxy wars with Russia all over the world. Brush up on your basic recent history of the last 100 years

West can't politically rush into a another war after the failures in Afghanistan. Putin has timed this and uses the examples in the Middle East to show hypocrisy from the west. We very well could get involved when the time is right. There is no obligation to get involved immediately as Ukraine is not part of NATO

*"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake"* Napoleon Bonaparte


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

This isn't a "proxy" war.

If NATO countries enter into the fray, they will become the target of Russia's nuclear arsenal.......not some proxy nation.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> This isn't a "proxy" war.


We are supporting Ukraine indirectly. Funding, training, and supplying Ukrainian military is the very definition of a proxy. Russia had been funding and supporting separatists in Eastern Ukraine for like a decade. This is nothing new sags.

"A proxy war is an armed conflict between two states or non-state actors which act on the instigation or on behalf of other parties that are not directly involved in the hostilities. In order for a conflict to be considered a proxy war, there must be a direct, long-term relationship between external actors and the belligerents involved. *The aforementioned relationship usually takes the form of funding, military training, arms, or other forms of material assistance which assist a party in sustaining its war effort."*

You keep talking about things you don't know anything about. Stay in your lane or I will continue to point out your ineptitudes. Boomers who lived before the internet are used to pretending to know more than they do but you could at least use google nowadays


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> OK so maybe I have really misunderstood what's happening in Russia.
> 
> Are you saying that a huge amount of the Russian population is on board with Putin's aggression towards Europe?
> 
> ...


I just re-read my post and I believe it could have been worded better. Please accept my apology.

I agree with both of you. Russia only has pro-Putin media. Look what Fox News has done to the US. 21% of America believes Hillary was killed and replaced with a body double sometime before 2016. We know Putin has a lot of support in the homeland. On the other hand, there is significant dissent in Russia.

The point I wish to make is that 5000 people in Red Square doesn't mean the Russian people are with Ukraine. It does mean Putin has a nuisance at home. We also don't know what ratio of Russians support Putin.

At times like these, it's easy to think the majority of people think as we do but that is a form of myopia. I think it's better to carefully segregate what we know and what we speculate. In that sense, it's just like selecting companies for investment.

I would like to invite anyone who wishes to join me in a crowdfunding campaign to encourage Russian truck drivers to drive across Russia for a Ukraine rally in Red Square. They should declare they will not leave until the Russian army pulls out of Ukraine, the government resigns, and a government of their choosing is installed to power.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> If NATO countries enter into the fray, they will become the target of Russia's nuclear arsenal.......not some proxy nation.


Things are far more complex than you realize. I have provided you with sources but they were apparently too long for you

You keep using words that you don't understand the meaning of even when given the definition. I shouldn't have to spoon-feed you the definition of words like inflation over and over

Stay in your lane saggyman


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> Putin has timed this and uses the examples in the Middle East to show hypocrisy from the west.


Did russia sanctioned the usa after Iraq or Afghanistan? No. This argument from russia is futile. Because russia basically approved it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I will let you listen to some college professor's opinion. I will listen to the head of NATO today.

This is not a "proxy" war. Russia is directly involved militarily. If NATO got involved it would be a direct confrontation.

There is nothing "proxy" about that reality.


*NATO will not establish a no-fly zone over Ukraine*, the alliance’s Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said Friday.
Ukraine has repeatedly called for Western powers to implement a no-fly zone to reduce the Russian military’s ability to attack Ukrainian targets from the air.
But speaking Friday following a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, Stoltenberg said the issue “was mentioned” but that “allies agree that we should not have NATO planes operating over Ukrainian airspace or NATO troops on Ukrainian territory.”

The secretary-general — who also warned that fighting in the coming days in Ukraine is likely to get worse — said that a no-fly zone would trigger a broader conflict.
*“The only way to implement a no-fly zone is to send NATO planes — fighter planes — into Ukrainian airspace, and then impose that no-fly zone by shooting down Russian planes,*” Stoltenberg said. *“If we did that, we’ll end up with something that could end in a full-fledged war in Europe involving many more countries and causing much more human suffering.” *
“So that’s the reason why we made this painful decision to impose heavy sanctions, provide significant support — stepping up support — but at the same time not involving NATO forces directly in the conflict in Ukraine,” Stoltenberg added.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Did russia sanctioned the usa after Iraq or Afghanistan? No. This argument from russia is futile. Because russia basically approved it.


I'm not sure but this is what I found

On the same day, Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov said that* "Russia deems that there is no evidence that would justify a war in Iraq." *On January 28, however, Russia's opinion had begun to shift following a report the previous day by UN inspectors which stated that Iraq had cooperated on a practical level with monitors, but had not demonstrated a "genuine acceptance" of the need to disarm. Russian President Vladimir Putin indicated that he would support a US-led war if things did not change and Iraq continued to show a reluctance to completely cooperate with inspection teams. However, Putin continued to stress that the US must not go alone in any such military endeavor, but instead must work through the UN Security Council. He also stressed the need for giving the UN inspectors more time. *Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov also garnered unusual applause inside the chamber with his speech against the war.*

It's hard to sanction the US when they have the world reserve currency. Putin has spoken about how the US weaponized the currency and many do believe the war in Iraq was to protect the petrodollar

Remember Canada did not support the war in Iraq



> In 2004 and 2005 Colin Powell acknowledged that much of his 2003 UN presentation was inaccurate:
> 
> I looked at the four [sources] that [the CIA] gave me for [the mobile bio-labs], and they stood behind them, ... Now it appears not to be the case that it was that solid. At the time I was preparing the presentation, it was presented to me as being solid.[17] April 3, 2004
> 
> I feel terrible ... [giving the speech] ... It's a blot. I'm the one who presented it on behalf of the United States to the world, and [it] will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It's painful now. Sep 8, 2005


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> I will let you listen to some college professor's opinion. I will listen to the head of NATO today.
> 
> This is not a "proxy" war. Russia is directly involved militarily. If NATO got involved it would be a direct confrontation.
> 
> There is nothing "proxy" about that reality.


First you say it's not a proxy war. Then you post a quote saying that we are supporting indirectly without involving NATO forces directly



sags said:


> “So that’s the reason why we made this painful decision to impose heavy sanctions, *provide significant support — stepping up support *— but at the same time not involving NATO forces directly in the conflict in Ukraine,” Stoltenberg added.


Indirect support is what a proxy is sags

This isn't even disputed. It's been referred to as a proxy war for over a decade already. I was in NATO and you are pulling stuff out of your a$$ again. Everyone can see you didn't understand what inflation is then you keep digging deeper

Just like inflation I shouldn't have to explain 100 times what the simple word means. Go read the definition of a proxy war again. We are supporting indirectly.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Who is the "proxy" force that Russia is supporting indirectly in Ukraine ?

Russia is not fighting a "proxy" war. The Russian military is the invading force directly involved.

If NATO got involved it would be direct confrontation of opposing sides equipped with nuclear weapons for the first time since the Cuban missile crisis.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags you're just digging yourself into a hole to save face and it's not working

Inflation is not good for GICs. Indirectly supporting a war is called a proxy war.

Ukraine has been known as a proxy war with Russia for a very long time.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> This isn't a "proxy" war.
> 
> If NATO countries enter into the fray, they will become the target of Russia's nuclear arsenal.......not some proxy nation.


This absolutely is a proxy war.
We're sending supplies, and allowing citizens to fight.

But NATO is officially not fighting.

This is EXACTLY what a proxy war is.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Who is the "proxy" that Russia is supporting ?

Who is the "proxy" force that NATO would face if they intervened ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Who is the "proxy" that Russia is supporting ?
> 
> Who is the "proxy" force that NATO would face if they intervened ?


Supporting a war "indirectly" from either side is a proxy. Russia was supporting separatists "indirectly" for many years but now they have "direct" involvement

Arguably, the west is supporting "directly" with intelligence and surveillance platforms. I received medals from both Canada and US for this support so I think I know what I'm talking about. We aren't funding or training those platforms we are directly providing them, including Canadians since 2014

You can go see all the surveillance platforms on flightradar right now including the global hawk. We also have space based sensors. Russia knows this they aren't dummies


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Who is the "proxy" that Russia is supporting ?
> 
> Who is the "proxy" force that NATO would face if they intervened ?


A proxy war occurs *when a major power instigates or plays a major role in supporting and directing a party to a conflict but does only a small portion of the actual fighting itself*

NATO is playing a major role in the Ukraine. Russia is obviously acting directly.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Go search for call sign FORTE (global hawk) on flightradar or MAGIC (NATO AWACS)

If you know your satellites you can also see them on keeptrack.com or n2yo.com

FORTE10 is orbiting in Poland on the Belarus and Ukraine border right meow









Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24


View flight on Flightradar24




www.flightradar24.com


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

There's a USAF C-130 c/s HSY134 about to enter Ukraine airspace. Is that direct or indirect? It's a military aircrafts entering the theatre

I also see some KC-135 tankers c/s LAGR and ESSO so that means there must me more stuff flying around. NATO should be there somewhere nearby

Could some fighters on station somewhere


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I found 3 air tankers in Poland and 1 in Romanian orbits right meow but I can't see who they're supporting. Hmm

HSY134 is flying very low like you would in combat to avoid detection. Heading straight for Ukraine on the deck

Is this direct or indirect?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Is this direct or indirect? Looks arguably borderline to me. Not supplying or training. War is complicated


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

@m3s I agree with your view that it's a proxy war. NATO is directly shipping weapons into Ukraine... Canada (even as small as we are) have sent millions of $ worth of weapons.

What makes me so anxious about this, is that it's a bit like the US is at war with Russia here.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

If selling or supplying military equipment is fighting a proxy war, then we are fighting proxy wars all over the world.

I worked for 5 years at GMD producing APCs and AFSVs for countries all over the world, including the US, Canada, Saudi Arabia and Iraq.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trudeau affirms today that NATO is not fighting a war against the Russians.

It would require a unanimous vote by all 30 NATO nations to intervene.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Today on talk radio, some conservative pundits are calling for NATO to intervene. It almost seems like they can't wait to get involved in a war with Russia.

Also mentioned was the fact that many of the "retired" generals and military people on television work for the defense industry and want to sell weapons.

There is lots of FUD and disinformation coming from all sides. I listen to the head of NATO and the leaders of the countries involved for the facts.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

m3s said:


> I found 3 air tankers in Poland and 1 in Romanian orbits right meow but I can't see who they're supporting. Hmm
> 
> HSY134 is flying very low like you would in combat to avoid detection. Heading straight for Ukraine on the deck
> 
> Is this direct or indirect?


If they fly in Ukrainian airspace, there could be a big problem. I seriously doubt they are doing that since Russia controls the airspace now.

The Russians have surface to air missiles, so it could be Russians shooting down a US aircraft that would start a war and not the other way around.

I think you are just repeating FUD you read online.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

sags said:


> If they fly in Ukrainian airspace, there could be a big problem. I seriously doubt they are doing that since Russia controls the airspace now.


Is that really how it works?

The Ukraine president is wide open to western help. It seems to me, the US should be able to fly into the Ukraine with an armada of war planes, drop off massive quantities of weapons, and leave without the Russians having anything to say about it.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Retired Generals on TV are always entertaining.

Russia does make a lot of money for the defense industry. Everything was winding down in Europe up until 2014. Who knows what the global elite are planning behind closed doors. We've been fighting Russia via proxy wars all over the world for a long time. Now Russia and China have Hypersonic Glide Missiles so we need to print more $$$$$ to upgrade our missile defenses of course

Bitcoin could put an end to this 19th century conflict over resources because you can't take it with force. No wonder the global elite and boomers hate it


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I can't tell if HSY134 flew into Ukraine airspace just now. They either landed near to the border or flew very low with transponders off as you do

C-130s are known for landing on dirt strips in Africa while risking anti aircraft fire. This is why they are military pilots with combat training. Russia does not have air superiority nor SAMs all over the country. Space and air surveillance would tell them where the threats are

We've been fighting proxy wars with Russia for a long time. Russia had "separatist" unmarked professional soldiers in Ukraine and 2 can play that game


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainian Defence Minister: "Victory is imminent"

Clickbait as usual but things don't appear that good for Russia when I see people in plain clothes claiming shiny T-80BVM war trophies. Russia is now sending reinforcements via rail from weeks away. Obviously they didn't expect to need those..

*The Ukrainian Armed Forces have received almost more tanks and armoured vehicles as trophies than they had received in the last 8 years from the Ukrainian defence industry.*

Russian General: "We've been attacking them for a week now. How much damage have we done to their military numbers?"
Russian Colonel: "Niet comrade... their numbers are increasing."

*"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake"* Napoleon Bonaparte


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

And now for something completely different; a Ukrainian hit song Bayraktar.









Пісня Байрактар. Новий український хіт. Останні новини. Текст пісні


Пісня, яку варто послухати окупантам, перш ніж лізти до нас.




md-eksperiment.org


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

More Bayraktars delivered from Turkey to Rzeszów-Jasionka I believe near the Ukraine border today








2 x Canadian RCAF CC-130J climbing out of... Rzeszów-Jasionka near the Ukraine border I believe








2 x USAF B-52 bombers orbiting over Romania








Also Russia is deleting pictures of their military planes from the internet. For example the site I used earlier to find the crashed 93026 tail number is being wiped


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Ukraine war: 'My city's being shelled, but mum won’t believe me'








Ukraine war: 'My city's being shelled, but mum won’t believe me'


These Ukrainians say their Russian relatives only trust the narratives they see on TV at home.



www.bbc.com




*


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499884524544614407


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> More Bayraktars delivered


I never heard of these before. Are these the drones that Ukraine is using to knock out tanks?

Looked it up... interesting









Ukraine Says It Used Turkish-Made Drones to Hit Russian Targets


Ukraine’s air force confirmed two strikes on Russian targets by Turkish-made drones, evidence that Kyiv is using the drones effectively against Moscow’s invading forces. The chief of Ukraine’s air force, Lt. Gen. Mykola Oleshchuk, called the Bayraktar TB2 drones “life-giving” in a Facebook post. A




www.wsj.com


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Sky News team's harrowing account of their violent ambush in Ukraine this week


On Monday, near Kyiv, chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay and his team were attacked. Camera operator Richie Mockler took two rounds to his body armour, Stuart was wounded. Their experience illustrates the scale of the mayhem and violence as Russia's invasion enters a new and deadlier phase.




news.sky.com


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499924244179951624


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499895009801351173


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499918391779414018


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499889332043268098


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I never heard of these before. Are these the drones that Ukraine is using to knock out tanks?


I believe they are being used to target supply convoys especially fuel. This seems to be working because tanks are being abandoned without supply lines

I don't know about tanks it probably depends on the armament and armour of the tank. Many russian tanks have explosive reactive armour so you need a special tandem charge to defeat it

What's odd is these could be countered by air cover. Russia has a brand new AWACS and capable air force


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> I believe they are being used to target supply convoys especially fuel. This seems to be working because tanks are being abandoned without supply lines


An Abrams makes about 0.6mpg.

Logistics is key.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

As I posted as a possible danger before....Putin bluntly stated today that sanctions are a "declaration of war" on Russia.

Either by Russian invasion or nuclear weapons, Ukraine is already lost and the west should tell them to surrender to save a humanitarian catastrophe.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> As I posted as a possible danger before....Putin bluntly stated today that sanctions are a "declaration of war" on Russia.
> 
> Either by Russian invasion or nuclear weapons, Ukraine is already lost and the west should tell them to surrender to save a humanitarian catastrophe.


Invading a sovereign nation is a declaration of war.
Saying I won't do business with a violent person is not a declaration of war.
That's literally all the sanctions are.

He's not playing by our rules, so we're not playing with him.

I stopped playing with kids who punched my other kids. You know the person who resorts to violence against others, will resort to violence against you, best option is to just ignore them.


Appeasement doesn't work.
Do you think Putin will stop with Ukraine?
Did he stop at Crimea?

You so often speak against liberal western values, I wonder if you're a Russian plant.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

sags said:


> Either by Russian invasion or nuclear weapons, Ukraine is already lost and the west should tell them to surrender to save a humanitarian catastrophe.


Fighting for freedom will always have risk.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Are people willing to go into a nuclear war with a power hungry lunatic ?

Just now, US Secretary of State is talking about the high level of pressure the sanctions are putting on Russia.

The unknown question is how Putin will react to all that pressure.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

sags said:


> Are people willing to go into a nuclear war with a power hungry lunatic ?


What I'm willing to do could not matter less. The same goes for you. We will live or die based on the decisions of others.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> The unknown question is how Putin will react to all that pressure.


Even if it devastates Russia I worry what that propaganda machine will yield over time

A bunch of angry drunk Russians with lots of resources and nothing to do but build tanks, anti-satellite weapons, hypersonic glide missiles

Think Germany post WW1 under harsh economic punishments except with nuclear warheads


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

‘I Just Can’t Stand By’: American Veterans Join the Fight in Ukraine


All across the country, small groups of military veterans are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor.




www.nytimes.com


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> Even if it devastates Russia I worry what that propaganda machine will yield over time
> 
> A bunch of angry drunk Russians with lots of resources and nothing to do but build tanks, anti-satellite weapons, hypersonic glide missiles
> 
> Think Germany post WW1 under harsh economic punishments except with nuclear warheads


I am not sure why China is not partaking, conduct a referendum and take part of Russian Far East and Siberia.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I am not sure why China is not partaking, conduct a referendum and take part of Russian Far East and Siberia.


Because they want to take Taiwan after the west is bled dry in Eastern Europe, North Africa and Middle East

Can we afford to economically sanction China? Is the Ontario Teacher Pension paying attention yet?



> Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan has a long-term plan for China that's unlikely to be derailed by political tensions. The fund invests a lot in technology in China which is very different than doing so North America


A lot of pension funds are exposed to Russia as well.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The C-32A serves the Special Air Mission, providing executive transport and broad communications capabilities to senior political officials








RAF Eurofighters


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

sags said:


> As I posted as a possible danger before....Putin bluntly stated today that sanctions are a "declaration of war" on Russia.
> 
> Either by Russian invasion or nuclear weapons, Ukraine is already lost and the west should tell them to surrender to save a humanitarian catastrophe.


Let him declare war if that is how he feels. I think he's bluffing.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)




----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> Even if it devastates Russia I worry what that propaganda machine will yield over time
> 
> A bunch of angry drunk Russians with lots of resources and nothing to do but build tanks, anti-satellite weapons, hypersonic glide missiles
> 
> Think Germany post WW1 under harsh economic punishments except with nuclear warheads


I think we know how to build golden bridges for enemies to retreat across. There is no reason Russia could not become wealthy and prosperous if they abandon their bellicose posture towards the west. Soviet dinosaurs need to be replaced.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I am not sure why China is not partaking, conduct a referendum and take part of Russian Far East and Siberia.


I think China doesn't like the war in Europe but they can't say anything because they plan to invade Taiwan.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> Invading a sovereign nation is a declaration of war.
> Saying I won't do business with a violent person is not a declaration of war.
> That's literally all the sanctions are.
> 
> ...


For someone that speaks against bullying, perhaps re-read your posts lately.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

andrewf said:


> Let him declare war if that is how he feels. I think he's bluffing.


If that's the case Ukraine, poland, Belarus will become war fields and nuclear test beds.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

When former president Donald Trump was in office he reportedly told Vladimir Putin he would bomb Moscow if Russia invaded Ukraine, says Sky News host Rita Panahi.








Trump threatened to ‘bomb Moscow’ if Russia invaded Ukraine during his presidency


When former president Donald Trump was in office he reportedly told Vladimir Putin he would bomb Moscow if Russia invaded Ukraine, says Sky News host Rita Panahi. “It seems like Putin took that seriously because he didn’t do it while Trump was there,” Ms Panahi said.




www.skynews.com.au





so basically Biden is weak and chicken, and putin knows that.
blood of Ukrainians is on weak Biden’s hands as well.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Doubtful.....Trump and Putin are best buddies.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A huge danger right now is a miscalculation of one side launching a nuclear strike against the other.

Any glitch in a computer warning systems could set off a devastating chain reaction, when tensions are so high.

In 1983, the Russian defense warning system lit up and warned the US had launched a ballistic missile attack on Russia.

It was a Russian duty officer who refused the military protocol to launch that saved the world from a nuclear disaster.

*Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov*_ (Russian: Станисла́в Евгра́фович Петро́в; 7 September 1939 – 19 May 2017) was a lieutenant colonel of the Soviet Air Defence Forces who played a key role in the 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm incident.[1] On 26 September 1983, three weeks after the Soviet military had shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007, Petrov was the duty officer at the command center for the Oko nuclear early-warning system when the system reported that a missile had been launched from the United States, followed by up to five more. Petrov judged the reports to be a false alarm.[2]. His subsequent decision to disobey orders, against Soviet military protocol,[3] is credited with having prevented an erroneous retaliatory nuclear attack on the United States and its NATO allies that could have resulted in a large-scale nuclear war which could have wiped out half of the population of the countries involved. An investigation later confirmed that the Soviet satellite warning system had indeed malfunctioned. Because of his decision not to launch a retaliatory nuclear strike amid this incident, Petrov is often credited as having "saved the world". _



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

We have seen how poorly maintained the Russian military is. It is an open question if the Russian nuclear warning system is maintained much better.

Putin had his military forces attacking the largest nuclear plant in Europe, despite all the dangers that entails.

Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The atomic bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima are dwarfed in explosive capacity by later developed hydrogen bombs.

The impact of a single bomb landing in a populated area would be too horrific to even comprehend.

As noted in the above linked article......a nuclear war could wipe out half the population of the countries involved.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> A huge danger right now is a miscalculation of one side launching a nuclear strike against the other. Any glitch in the computer warning systems could set off a chain reaction.


Not true

There are many redundant systems and communications channels so that nothing is ever launched based off "any single glitch in the computer warning system" A lot has changed since 1983 believe it or not

False alarms happen far more often today than 1983. Now there's 1000s autonomous satellites that can appear to be on ballistic trajectories and every rocket gets assessed as a potential missile. Sensors, computers and communication is also far better

Source: I'm a human in the loop who assesses false alarms. Stop fear mongering and go take your meds


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The only "loop" you are in is reading fake reports on sketchy Twitter channels.

Your posted screenshot of aircraft upthread perfoming 90 degree turns, tight circles, and ending up nowhere was especially entertaining.

Someone took a screenshot of the area, scribbled some red marker lines on it and you reoposted it as a "flight path"...........too funny.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It takes hours for the US to "assess" missile launches by North Korea.

In a nuclear missile strike......the reaction time is a few minutes not hours.

You seriously think the Russians have maintained top level weapons systems when a stalled truck convoy has their rotten Chinese tires falling off ?

Russian weapons are poorly maintained, and their army is poorly trained, but they do have brute force weapons and Putin is threatening to use them.

The danger of a false alarm is high, according to those who are actually "in the loop".


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> The only "loop" you are in is reading fake reports on sketchy Twitter channels.
> 
> Your posted screenshot of aircraft upthread perfoming 90 degree turns, tight circles, and ending up nowhere was especially entertaining.
> 
> Someone took a screenshot of the area, scribbled some red marker lines on it and you reoposted it as a "flight path"...........too funny.


If you're talking about SAM497 I took the screenshot from flightradar

That data is just open source from the transponders and it can do 90 degrees turns because it was taxiing on a runway. I don't pay flightradar for the extra data so I use other people's screenshots from twitter for some. It's not like I can post radar screens or official screenshots for you from work

Keep posting false information and I will keep showing everyone that you are just wrong again. You don't seem to have any capacity to learn


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The early posts in this thread speak for themselves.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> The danger of a false alarm is high, according to those who are actually "in the loop".


So where's the source?

I can't point out what you are misreading or what is being misrepresented without even a source for your claims

Is it some boomer who retired 20 years ago?


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

sags said:


> The impact of a single bomb landing in a populated area would be too horrific to even comprehend.


Russia has baby nukes, intended for use in this type of situation. They might take out a quarter of a large city.

What's more, they regularly have exercises in which they simulate a tactical nuke blast prior to invasion.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Russia made a mistake they should have guaranteed security to Ukraine like they did with Belarus. Since nato said no to Ukraine. Nato was feeding promises to Ukraine since 2008, nothing concrete. Together Ukraine Russia Belarus could concur the rest of Europe and nato would not do sh..t about it. 
nato is useless organization now days, run by chicken.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500518858263830532
thank you for your support nato and free world. 
colouring buildings really protects from 1100 pounds bombs and saves lives.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> When former president Donald Trump was in office he reportedly told Vladimir Putin he would bomb Moscow if Russia invaded Ukraine, says Sky News host Rita Panahi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Assuming Trump is not lying (big assumption), Putin knew he was full of s***.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Russia made a mistake they should have guaranteed security to Ukraine like they did with Belarus. Since nato said no to Ukraine. Nato was feeding promises to Ukraine since 2008, nothing concrete. Together Ukraine Russia Belarus could concur the rest of Europe and nato would not do sh..t about it.
> nato is useless organization now days, run by chicken.


Russia offering security to Ukraine is like the fox offering security for the henhouse.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

TomB16 said:


> Russia has baby nukes, intended for use in this type of situation. They might take out a quarter of a large city.
> 
> What's more, they regularly have exercises in which they simulate a tactical nuke blast prior to invasion.


You need more than a low yield nuke to take out a large city.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

andrewf said:


> You need more than a low yield nuke to take out a large city.


Agreed. You need a slightly higher yield nuke.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

FIRST READING: Europe rolls its eyes at Justin Trudeau (msn.com)

I do not disagree with the PMs comments but hate when people sidestep questions. In my view this should have been an opportunity for Canada to show how it could support the UK and EU should agriculture and energy supply from Ukraine and Russia become disrupted. Looks like it became an afternoon tea with the Queen to reminisce about PET. I will acknowledge that Canada has been swift and clear with its sanctions but they really do not impact Russia as we very little trade with them

With spring break up approaching Canadian drilling will be put on pause. At some point spring planting will be delayed enough to affect yields significantly or result in a total loss of growing season overseas. Putin is definitely out strategizing the Western leaders. He knew that most would sit on their hands in disbelief and would not make a timely response. Longer term Russia will be broken both militarily and economically but not before more death, damage and displacement is done to the people of Ukraine.

Edit: I am saddened that support has become putting a flag in your window or shining lights from monuments. I understand that these symbolic gestures help with morale but without economic and military support they are meaningless. Ukraine has done a remarkable job in its defense but is clearly outsized in this invasion. NATO and the UN need to step up.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wish all politicians answered questions directly, but it is unusual for any to do so.

They could say something today and the conditions change, but the video is archived forever and their own words are used against them in the future.

We live in a world of "gotcha" politics. Unfortunately, I don't think there is much upside for politicians to be too open and a lot of downside.

So the answers to media questions are more often "non answers".


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am not sure what more we can do to aid Ukraine, except perhaps in the aftermath.

In Canada, I heard a cabinet minister asked about financial support for Canadians during this temporary period of high inflation, and he alluded to " a budget is coming".....so perhaps there will be some inflation support for Canadians planned.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I am not sure what more we can do to aid Ukraine, except perhaps in the aftermath.
> 
> In Canada, I heard a cabinet minister asked about financial support for Canadians during this temporary period of high inflation, and he alluded to " a budget is coming".....so perhaps there will be some inflation support for Canadians planned.


We've been having the "benefits" of massive stimulus for years, now we have to pay for it.
Any substantial "inflation support" is simply going to delay the inevitable.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Can we delay it until 2205 ? Then we will pay it back......we promise.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Ukrainian children's hospital completely wiped out by Russian bombing


President Zelensky said children are under the wreckage as he shared harrowing footage of an obliterated maternity ward.




metro.co.uk


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Russian prisoners press conference with English translation


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

And yet........many Russians believe Putin's propaganda and will never see these interviews or pictures of the bombings.

While the world media sees the bombed out buildings, the Russian people see quiet streets and calm scenes.

The west has to have better ways to get the information inside Russia to the Russian people.

Radio free Europe or dropping leaflets from airplanes worked better than the internet which is easily shut off or controlled.

Heck.........even some Republican politicians and Fox news hosts believe the Russian propaganda.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

On the way to Kyiv


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

sags said:


> The west has to have better ways to get the information inside Russia to the Russian people.


There is no better way to send that information to the Russian population than to use large bags containing the bodies of dead soldiers.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> There is no better way to send that information to the Russian population than to use large bags containing the bodies of dead soldiers.


You underestimate kremlin. Mothers will learn they never had a son or husband.

The #Russian Service of BBC writes that they have information about what is happening in the Mozyr morgue Earlier, Belarusian and #Ukrainian independent media reported that hospitals in southern #Belarus were allegedly overfilled with the bodies of the Russian soldiers.
The bodies are not even taken to a refrigerator, but to an ordinary room - 5x5 m2, they are stored there for a while, they rot, stink - then bodies are taken away somewhere.” “The soldiers themselves do this everything is guarded only the head of the department has access.”
According to his BBC source, "no one knows how many dead bodies there are, but everyone is horrified by what's happening. Doctors think that somewhere there is a mobile crematorium or they just bury them somewhere".


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> You underestimate kremlin. Mothers will learn they never had a son or husband.


This is true. All of us who are used to living in fair and democratic countries can have no idea what kind of craziness happens under dictatorships and authoritarian regimes.

Related to that, I'm also worried that the sanctions from the West may not be as powerful as they think. So what, if the stock market crashed, the ruble crashed, and there are food shortages. It's a dictatorship, and people who are somewhat used to Soviet days.

Their people can "handle it" (with enforcement by the Kremlin) more easily than the West thinks. Those who can't handle it will be beaten into submission, or killed.

In comparison, people in the US and Canada think that "hardship" means that gasoline hits $2 or $3 a litre. *Hilarious!* We have to be careful about applying Western standards to a place like Russia, which to a great extent, still lives in the Soviet mind set. For god sake they have a Soviet KGB agent as dictator.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> the sanctions from the West may not be as powerful as they think.


Germany is still buying oil from russia. Not even all russian banks are cut off from swift.
Plus you know there are suckers.








*The Western firms that have not cut Russia ties over Ukraine*
_Hundreds of companies have announced plans to suspend or halt operations over war in Ukraine, but some are still doing business._








The Western firms that have not cut Russia ties over Ukraine


Hundreds of companies have suspended or halted operations over war in Ukraine, but some are still doing business.




www.aljazeera.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Still in Russia*
It’s worth mentioning that there are at least two major categories of sanctions that the world has not imposed on Russia.

One, Europe continues to buy large amounts of oil and natural gas from Russia, and energy is easily Russia’s biggest source of revenue. Europe is so reliant on Russian energy that a full embargo could cause large price increases, notes Mark Landler, The Times’s London bureau chief.

Two, some large companies are continuing to operate in Russia, as the Popular Information newsletter has reported. *Hyatt and Marriott *have continued running hotels there. *Citi, Bridgestone Tire and Philip Morris* have also continued their operations. And *Halliburton* has continued to operate oil fields in Russia despite a specific appeal from a top Ukrainian official.

“Always unfortunate in so many ways for so many people,” Jeff Miller, Halliburton’s chief executive, said in January, about the prospect of a war. “But from a business perspective, we’ve managed these sorts of things up and down for, I hate to say, nearly 100 years.”

We asked Hyatt, Marriott, Halliburton and other companies to explain their decisions to continue operating in Russia, and they did not do so.

remember this next time you buy your tires, walk away from Bridgestone, Pirelli, Nokian. Those can be manufactured in russia.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

I appreciate my fellow CMF'rs opinions - all sides... I see a wide base of opinions as healthy.....

The Ukraine is in a tough spot. What if things there were not as we have all been led to believe ? 

We all basically watch the same news... and get the same information to form our opinions....

Have a watch, is this whole thing a choose your own adventure where there is only 1 option at the bottom of the page ???

Yes its long and you need to pay attention.....









Ukraine On Fire


Ukraine. Across its eastern border is Russia and to its west-Europe. For centuries, it has been at the center of a tug-of-war between powers seeking to control its rich lands and access to the Black S




rumble.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

All you need to know about this.
Pavel Shekhtman, as published by the Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group, characterized Ukraine on Fire as “*undistilled Kremlin propaganda*”.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Better spend your time on this filmed Netflix.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Russia Asked China for Military and Economic Aid for Ukraine War, U.S. Officials Say








Russia Asked China for Military and Economic Aid for Ukraine War, U.S. Officials Say


Jake Sullivan, the U.S. national security adviser, plans to meet with a top Chinese official on Monday in Rome to discuss the war and China’s role.




www.nytimes.com




*


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Putin is so evil it is jarring to everyone with normal human emotions.

I don't understand what he thinks he will get from this invasion. He will not conquer the free people of Ukraine and will never be forgiven for what he has done.

What does he think his end game is now that reality is setting in ? Realization of his own future makes Putin a very erratic and dangerous man.

I only hope that some in Russia understand the danger and get to him before he decides to take the world down with him.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Putin is so evil it is jarring to everyone with normal human emotions.
> 
> I don't understand what he thinks he will get from this invasion. He will not conquer the free people of Ukraine and will never be forgiven for what he has done.
> 
> ...


Who knows what he's thinking, narcissitic sociopaths are like that.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Who knows what he's thinking, narcissitic sociopaths are like that.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I still prefer this one.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*A pregnant woman wounded in the Russian bombing of a Ukrainian maternity hospital has died along with her baby, reports say.

















Ukraine war: Pregnant woman and baby die after hospital shelled


The woman, seen in a widely shared image after a maternity hospital was hit, dies along with her baby.



www.bbc.com




*


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The drums of war are beating in the US Senate as a bi-partisan group calls for US intervention.

Every day we are inching closer to war with Russia. The people of Russia need to gather in the millions and overthrow Putin.

With his military stretched thin.......now is the time.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Not sure if this is true but then again I am not sure if news from traditional journalism is either. If it is it is both heartwarming and hilarious. If it's not then it is a fun exercise in imagination.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The drums of war are beating in the US Senate as a bi-partisan group calls for US intervention.
> 
> Every day we are inching closer to war with Russia. The people of Russia need to gather in the millions and overthrow Putin.
> 
> With his military stretched thin.......now is the time.


Your unabashed hatred for the people of earth is shocking.

Do you realize this will be bad? Or do you really think it's a good idea?


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> Your unabashed hatred for the people of earth is shocking.
> 
> Do you realize this will be bad? Or do you really think it's a good idea?


I'm missing the meaning of your post? Wouldn't it be better for the people of Russia to stand together to remove this dictator and perhaps replace him with someone like Alexei Navalny, rather than chance a nuclear war? 

If the US government, and then NATO becomes convinced that they should introduce a no-fly zone, there's a real threat of a nuclear war. I see NATO member Estonia today voting in their parliament to introduce a no-fly zone. As sags says, "every day we are inching closer to war with Russia". 

Again, as sags says, I would think it better to have this ended internally by the people of Russia (although I doubt it will happen until the sanctions really take effect). Sanctions move slow - they can't stop tanks and planes or even make people's lives miserable until some time goes by. This is what it would take to get the Russian people to wake up and demand a change of leadership, but we can hope.

Why does sags have a "hatred for the people of earth"?

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> I'm missing the meaning of your post? Wouldn't it be better for the people of Russia to stand together to remove this dictator and perhaps replace him with someone like Alexei Navalny, rather than chance a nuclear war?
> 
> Why does sags have a "hatred for the people of earth"?


Because he's been advocating for the violent overthrowing of the Russian government/assasination of Putin.

That's a very dangerous path to go down. 

He also consistently argues against the best interests of the people.
I can get over him being wrong, I can even get over the extreme number of false claims he makes, heck today he was spreading COVID19 disinformation.

But calling for assignations and the overthrow of governments.. that's just too much.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> But calling for assignations and the overthrow of governments.. that's just too much.


I can't imagine any positive outcome of this situation that wouldn't either involve Putin spending the rest of his life in prison or his death by a legitimate court or indeed his assassination. Why is that too much? Do you see Putin continuing on as the leader of this destructive dictatorship? Have you been watching the TV? Sags wants the overthrow of this government - you obviously don't agree. Tell us about a better outcome.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> I can't imagine any positive outcome of this situation that wouldn't either involve Putin spending the rest of his life in prison or his death by a legitimate court or indeed his assassination. Why is that too much? Do you see Putin continuing on as the leader of this destructive dictatorship? Have you been watching the TV? Sags wants the overthrow of this government - you obviously don't agree. Tell us about a better outcome.
> 
> ltr


I do not think it is appropriate to advocate for the assassination of political leaders. 
It's also against forum rules.

I want to replace the current Russian government, as well as the current Canadian government, however I don't condone violence in either case. I'm not sure the immediate replacement of either would necessarily be an improvement.

I support force against Russias actions against Ukraine, but beyond that, nope.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

How do you get rid of a dictator without force?

ltr


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Mr.Matt sounds like he has no idea of what is going on in Ukraine.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/anti-war-protester-disrupts-russia-state-tv-1.6384534


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

like_to_retire said:


> How do you get rid of a dictator without force?
> 
> ltr


Make it look like a suicide.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Biden should shut up his old mouth (we understand that election is coming his party needs PR bla bla).
if you give something to Ukraine give it quietly, no need to agitate the enemy.
Germany said they won’t release any information anymore. Everyone should follow.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Agreed, Dude.

I dare say the news people are giving away far to much, also. Russia is monitoring all communications.


----------



## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

I couldn't believe the CBC National anchor tonight asking whether NATO should risk nuclear war to stop Putin. Unpredictable, unhinged. That to me is a risk that just can't be taken in my mind. That being said, what's the solution? Will his ego ever let him withdraw?


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

diharv said:


> I couldn't believe the CBC National anchor tonight asking whether NATO should risk nuclear war to stop Putin. Unpredictable, unhinged. That to me is a risk that just can't be taken in my mind. That being said, what's the solution? Will his ego ever let him withdraw?


That's been the issue for decades. Basically, does that mean once a country gets nukes, hands off because of fear of nuclear war? I'd say the Iraq war pretty much set the precedent, if they don't have nukes and look to get them, then we invade to prevent them from getting them. If they actually did have nukes do you think Saddam Hussein wouldn't have used them, and people would think twice?


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

diharv said:


> I couldn't believe the CBC National anchor tonight asking whether NATO should risk nuclear war to stop Putin. Unpredictable, unhinged. That to me is a risk that just can't be taken in my mind. That being said, what's the solution? Will his ego ever let him withdraw?


Way too much speculation about possible nuclear war, do you people really think that nuclear launch button is the red button in putins bunker? There’s a chain of command for this, including russian generals who got families, including submarines captains who got families, there’s russian spies and special forces, who all got families. It is just no going to happen. 
If nato ever decide to provide some conventional military support to Ukraine, there won’t be a nuclear war. Relax and stop pushing this hysteria.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> It is just no going to happen.


The issue is, you cannot guarantee this. Putin is a nut-job. We don't know what he will do.

As far as nukes go, I believe it is possible for him to drop a nuke or two on Ukraine. They have baby nukes designed for this purpose.

While I don't suggest this is going to happen, I believe it is possible and I also don't believe anyone knows with certainly how far gone Putin is.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Sabrina Maddeaux: Zelenskyy shamed Canada over Ukraine and we deserved it (msn.com) 

Here is a piece criticizing Canadian leadership in its response to the Russian invasion. I think Canada has sent a strong message on its stance with regards to Russia's actions and has put forward clear sanctions early but it really has limited impact. It provides the same impact as putting blue and yellow flags in your window. Yes we stand with you but "really can't" do much. We wish we could and we will if we can. Most understand the world is trying to avoid further escalation (Putin and Russian oligarchs included). It must be very disheartening for Zelenskyy, the people of Ukraine and the people of Russia to experience such chaos. I saw the video with Canadian parliament and will be embarrassed a standing ovation is all we provide in response to the request for assitance. I am sure in the moment it was appreciated by Zelenskyy but if not followed up with quick and decisive action their will be more devastation. This action must be taken by many countries in a way that causes withdrawal from Ukraine that avoids nuclear response. Not an easy task. Each day we hear talk of peace negotiations. I am curious as to how serious the peace negotiations are and believe both sides are biding their time in homes that the advantage will shift in their favour. I overheard a statement in conversation today regarding the situation that would have made me chuckle were it not so serious that I will share with you all.

"It's time for the big dog's to get off the porch and stop barking. They need to chase that fox back to the salt mines in Siberia."


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Irish member of European Parliament addresses Ukraine war, all wars evil. - YouTube 

Great speech and totally on point.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

What's wrong with all these boomers nowadays

Volodymyr Zelenskyy proves that it's time for non-boomer politicians


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504082706598146058


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Excuse my ignorance, but are there other Wars of this magnitude going on anywhere else?


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

m3s said:


> What's wrong with all these boomers nowadays
> 
> Volodymyr Zelenskyy proves that it's time for non-boomer politicians
> 
> ...


Like Justin Trudeau ? 😂😂😂


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

fstamand said:


> Like Justin Trudeau ? 😂😂😂


I'll take him over sleepy joe


----------



## accord1999 (Aug 9, 2013)

Money172375 said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but are there other Wars of this magnitude going on anywhere else?


Yemen Civil War:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Civil_War_(2014%E2%80%93present)


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

You can’t believe russian pigs. Not a single word.
this tweet was deleted from MFA russia, but internet remember everything.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493951706631217156


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

22 likes.............LOL.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

accord1999 said:


> Yemen Civil War:
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Civil_War_(2014%E2%80%93present)


In fact, both Canada and the USA supply weapons to Saudi Arabia, which is probably using them to commit war atrocities in Yemen.

The west should not be arming and supporting Saudi Arabia. They're a monstrous regime. I wonder why we don't see footage of all the horror and suffering in Yemen on the nightly news. I hope everyone realizes that somewhere, there is news coverage that shows dead civilians, dead little children, who were killed by America weapons.

Some would argue that the US, UK and France are involved in war crimes in Yemen due to supplying weapons to the hostile nation, who's committing atrocities.

But oops, don't show that one on the nightly news!









Yemen: US-made weapon used in air strike that killed scores in escalation of Saudi-led coalition attacks


The Saudi-led coalition used a precision-guided munition made in the United States in last week’s air strike on a detention centre in Sa’adah, north-western Yemen, which, according to Doctors without Borders, killed at least 80 people and injured over 200, Amnesty International said today. The...




www.amnesty.org







Money172375 said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but are there other Wars of this magnitude going on anywhere else?


The war in Syria is horrendous and continues to today. In fact, if any of you are interested, I would be happy to go back and find some of the old CMF threads early in the war, when there was talk of refugees coming to Canada.

There are 7 million refugees from the war in Syria. Does anyone remember the level of empathy that CMF demonstrated towards them? I'd be happy to find the old threads and remind everyone just how much Canadians "care" about refugees... especially the kind-hearted right wingers. Bless their hearts. Their posts were just overflowing with love and consideration for the women and children getting blown to bits in Syria.

Does anyone have more sympathy for the refugees from Syria now?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A lot of private and military jets have left Moscow and headed towards Dubai or the eastern regions of Russia.

Putin is said to have left Moscow and is in a bunker in east Russia and taken his family with him.

Dozens of private jets left Moscow for Dubai. People are thinking it is the oligarchs feeling threatened after Putin fired some of his heads of intelligence.

The speculation is that a coup is underway to remove Putin or he is hunkering down in preparation of the use of chemical weapons or a tactical nuke.

Whatever the meaning........all this movement is being carefully monitored by people and the US military.

Hopefully........it is an overthrow of Putin.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

James........it was the Harper government who weren't interested in settling Syrian refugees into Canada.

Soon after his election, Trudeau started bringing in Syrian refugees and they have settled very nicely into life in Canada.

I remember in our city how everyone rushed to help the Syrian refugees find housing and support.

I think refugees from Ukraine will settle in quite easily into Canada, even if only until they can safely return home.

I do think the refugees need to be vetted to some extent, but it shouldn't be a difficult process.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> Syria


Remind me which country invaded Syria?


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

ZING!!!!!

lol!


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Remind me which country invaded Syria?


The situation in Syria is a civil war between Al Assad and the Syrian opposition. Russia is certainly involved and an enthusiastic participant, but arguably is involved at the behest of the incumbent Syrian government -- Al Assad. The Russians have not "invaded" in opposition to the incumbent Syrian government.


----------



## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

james4beach said:


> The west should not be arming and supporting Saudi Arabia. They're a monstrous regime. I wonder why we don't see footage of all the horror and suffering in Yemen on the nightly news


They're not white or European.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

ZING again!

Some great content in here, today! Really appreciate it.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

sags said:


> it was the Harper government who weren't interested in settling Syrian refugees into Canada.
> Soon after his election, Trudeau started bringing in Syrian refugees


Both parties had promised to bring in thousands of refugees, but the Conservative government seemed unable or unwilling to actually do it. I think the issue was one of the deciding factors in the Conservative loss at the time. When the Libs won, they had refugees coming in within a couple of weeks. I dug this up and it kind of illustrates the situation leading up to the election:



https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2674868942


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> The west should not be arming and supporting Saudi Arabia.


AMEN!

[Notice: That is not a misspelling of "Yemen".]


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I seem to have fallen in love with Julia Ioffe. She is one of the best analysis minds of our time.

It's wild to look at 8~10 year old multi-analyst interview clips on YouTube with her being dead accurate and American Intelligence people getting it significantly wrong.

I mention Julia Ioffe because she seems to be an authority on Russia and Putin.


----------



## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

Her Putin's Road to War interview was excellent.


----------



## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

sags said:


> Putin is said to have left Moscow and is in a bunker in east Russia and taken his family with him
> 
> The speculation is that a coup is underway to remove Putin or he is hunkering down in preparation of the use of chemical weapons or a tactical nuke.


Where do you get this bunk? True, his downfall would have to come from within but where is that going to come from? So many people think the oligarchs have the power to get rid of him. They don't, they exist at his behest.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Does this remind you of Nazi rallies in Nuremberg or maybe a Trump rally? Tell me it's fake propaganda?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504805388176265218

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504818286478958629

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504815301552185390


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Now that Ukraine officially legalized crypto, Ukrainian farmers are selling NFTs that contain the coordinates and instructions to retrieve your own russian tank

I'm shopping for a good T-72 in decent used condition myself. No need for explosive reactive armour or anything too fancy


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s said:


> Ukrainian farmers are selling NFTs that contain the coordinates


Huge risk of scam. What's to stop some guy in New Jersey from pretending to be one of these farmers?

Then he can just sell nothing (literally nothing) to people who are eager and willing to help Ukraine's cause. Exploitation of the generous and naive. I'm sure as we speak, plenty of millennials are getting scammed (yet again) by crypto and NFT con artists... this time in the name of Ukraine.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Huge risk of scam. What's to stop some guy in New Jersey from pretending to be one of these farmers?


Yes welcome to the internet circa 1999

There are ways to verify things james (which I have not, but I would if I was going to buy a tank)

People donate money to Ukraine everywhere on the internet nowadays


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I feel like people are really confused about what NFTs are. All they are are 'bragging rights'.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

andrewf said:


> I feel like people are really confused about what NFTs are. All they are are 'bragging rights'.


Yea no.

I hold NFTs that represent actual liquidity pairs that can be traded or used as collateral based on the underlying value. I also have NFTs that give access to things such as tests and bonus yield

You're basically saying the internet is just for cat videos. Or saying paper is just for wiping your *** because you don't know how to read


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Scam or not there is some lightheartedness in this farmer's promotion.

Russian Tanks Being Sold on Opensea for 250 ETH – Trustnodes


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The chances of a Ukrainian farmer that old understanding how to mint NFTs during an invasion are pretty low

If the pictures were of the actual tank I would be more convinced and consider an offer to support the cause. I suppose realistically he would have just told the Ukrainian army where they are.

Zelenskyy did legalize crypto in Ukraine a few days ago after receiving millions in donations while the legacy banking system is down


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I would agree that there are better ways to provide aid to Ukraine and the story above is more a feel good piece. Legalizing crypto will quickly speed up funding for defense against the incursion.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Arab monarchies turn down Syrian refugees over security threat*
As Europe struggles with a massive refugee influx, Arab Gulf states have come under scrutiny for taking in few refugees. Don't expect the oil-rich monarchies to change their course anytime soon, experts told DW.








Arab Gulf turns down Syrian refugees – DW – 01/25/2016


As Europe struggles with a massive refugee influx, Arab Gulf states have come under scrutiny for taking in few refugees. Don't expect the oil-rich monarchies to change their course anytime soon, experts told DW.




www.dw.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

diharv said:


> They're not white or European.


Different mentality. Gulf countries (similar cultural) should be plenty for Syrian refugees. 

In 2016, *24% of male refugees from Syria were employed*, compared with 39% among those from other countries. Among Syrian female refugees, 8% were employed, compared with 17% of female refugees from other countries.




__





Results from the 2016 Census: Syrian refugees who resettled in Canada in 2015 and 2016


In this study, data from the 2016 Census are used to provide a sociodemographic profile of the Syrian refugees who resettled in Canada between January 1, 2015, and May 10, 2016, and who were still living in Canada at the time of the census. This article also analyses the labour market...




www150.statcan.gc.ca


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

m3s said:


> Yea no.
> 
> I hold NFTs that represent actual liquidity pairs that can be traded or used as collateral based on the underlying value. I also have NFTs that give access to things such as tests and bonus yield
> 
> You're basically saying the internet is just for cat videos. Or saying paper is just for wiping your *** because you don't know how to read


Maybe I should clarify. Most NFTs that are talked about in the media/conversation are ownership of digital artworks. Those are just bragging rights. There are other applications, but not what most people understand NFTs to be.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Meanwhile, in Russia...


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are 144 million Russians and they are all fearful and controlled by one man.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Maybe Ukraine needs to start lobbing some missiles into Russia.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Bosch faces probe over possible Russia sanctions violations — report*
Ukraine says it found parts from the German engineering giant in Russian military vehicles. An investigation is underway into whether EU sanctions on Moscow have been violated, according to German outlet Der Spiegel.

*Bosch Suspends Russia Business, Says Parts May Have Been Misused*


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

If you think there are any normal russian people, I hate to disappoint you.
How many anti war protesters organized by russian emigrants have you seen? None. Because they all support russian actions and russian president.
old but helpful.








Shocking video shows Toronto Ukrainian family attacked by man wielding Russian flag


The war in Ukraine is thousands of kilometres away, but the fallout of the conflict has spread across the globe, including right here in Toronto. I...




www.blogto.com


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> How many anti war protesters organized by russian emigrants have you seen? None. Because they all support russian actions and russian president.


I don't think this comment is helpful. We know that there are protests of the war within Russia by Russians. It is not reasonable to assume the sentiments of emigres would not also be at least mixed. I think your comment is just a made up lie, in fact.









Russian immigrant, now living in NH, hosts Ukrainian war protest


"Instead of sitting here in a helpless rage, I just need to show up somewhere. I cannot be on my couch."




www.newscentermaine.com













Russians around the world, including in Canada, protest in support of Ukraine


Russians around the world, including in Canada, have taken to the streets daily to denounce their homeland's invasion of Ukraine.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

gardner said:


> It is not reasonable to assume the sentiments of emigres would not also be at least mixed. I think your comment is just a made up lie, in fact.


Okay, show me a video of russian emigrants in hundreds protesting against war or russian government.
meanwhile

*86.6% of Russians tolerate and support the potential assault on the territory of the European Union, including: Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia *and others as evidenced by the results of the sociological survey conducted by “Active Group”.

75.5% of Russians approve the idea of a military invasion in the next country and believe that it should be Poland. According to respondents, this is a logical continuation of the so-called “military special operation of the Russian Federation”.

Moreover, according to the survey, 75% of respondents tolerate to a varied extent the use of nuclear weapons by their government.

While only 13.4% of Russians have a negative attitude to the military invasion in other countries, 46% of respondents are absolutely sure that the Russian government should attack the EU, and 40.6% assume a permissible expansion of hostilities.

The three countries that according to the poll will be targeted by Russia are: Poland (75.5%), the Baltic countries, among which Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia (41%), Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary (39.6%). In the survey, respondents had the opportunity to select several countries.

Only 25.5% of Russians strongly oppose the use of nuclear weapons. Among those surveyed, 40.3% consider a nuclear attack absolutely acceptable, and 34.3% will support such a decision to some extent by the Russian authorities.
Survey says 86.6% of Russians support the armed invasion of Russia in other European countries | Active Group


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Russia is controlled by a strong man. While he has a lot of followers and supporters, it is clear there are also dissidents.

The definition of bigotry is to judge an entire group based on the behaviour of a subset of that group. Let's try not to do that.

The Russians who oppose Putin, particularly those who have spoken out, are a key piece of the solution to current problems. As such, they deserve a good deal of respect.

Did you see the video I posted of a man being arrested for holding a black piece of paper? That Russian man is not an enemy of Ukraine.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> 86.6% of Russians tolerate and support


You are literally citing Russian Government propaganda. It is not remotely reasonable to accept any level of veracity in this tripe.



> Okay, show me a video of russian emigrants in hundreds protesting against war or russian government.
> meanwhile


I showed you two articles from reasonably trustworthy sources to show that you were wrong.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> 75.5% of Russians approve the idea of a military invasion in the next country and believe that it should be Poland. According to respondents, this is a logical continuation of the so-called “military special operation of the Russian Federation”.


75% of Russians want war with NATO? Are they nuts?


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Making money on blood.

Koch Industries, Nestle, Renault—Here Are The Companies Under Fire For Russian Ties.








Koch Industries, Nestle, Renault—Here Are The Companies Under Fire For Russian Ties


Swiss foodmaker Nestle became the latest target of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who has crusaded over the last week against companies he believes aren’t doing enough to punish Russia financially.




www.forbes.com




*


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

gardner said:


> You are literally citing Russian Government propaganda. It is not remotely reasonable to accept any level of veracity in this tripe.


I have relatives in Russia they all completely support russian actions in Ukraine. Also my parents and other relatives live in Ukraine. I have no reason to question the veracity of that poll.



gardner said:


> I showed you two articles from reasonably trustworthy sources to show that you were wrong.


Neither have any video of russian emigrants protests against the war. I understand it’s difficult to protest in russia because of prosecutions, but hey in European countries and North American people can protest against the war, no question asked.
the great majority of russians are pro war by default.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

How many anti-war protesters got out on the streets in Canada and US? I'm a very anti-war person, but I didn't go out and join protests when Harper joined US aggression and started bombing the **** out of the middle east.

Instead I tried my best to vote him out. I also try to make sure that other people like Harper don't get elected, so they don't keep harming our nation.

There are many more people opposed to war than those who show up in protests that you see in media coverage.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

How many anti-war rallies have you organized, Ukrainiandude?

I have organzied 0 and attended 0. If there was either a pro Ukraine rally or anti Russian protest in my town, I would not attend. Does that make me pro-war?

I caution you to not make enemies out of people who are not enemies. Ukraine has enough problems, already.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> How many anti-war rallies have you organized, Ukrainiandude?
> 
> I have organzied 0 and attended 0. If there was either a pro Ukraine rally or anti Russian protest in my town, I would not attend. Does that make me pro-war?
> 
> I caution you to not make enemies out of people who are not enemies. Ukraine has enough problems, already.


We had several anti war rallies here that I attended. 
Most people are indifferent (indifference equivalent silent support in some cases )by the default unless it touches them personally. 
I am not making enemies, russian people made enemies themselves by participating or supporting killing of Ukrainians. 
If Canadians were to start a war with majority of Canadian population supporting it with any other country. Canadians would become my enemy as well.
You/we made your choices and you have to live with it.


----------



## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> If you think there are any normal Russian people, I hate to disappoint you.


Well, there are some, young and old, and while out of jail, singing obliquely душощипающие anti-war songs:




Actually, as I understand from the comments, the singer is already in jail.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

As the Russian opposition leader who was poisoned twice said........Russia will have to fall from within, and it will. 

The Russian people long to have a democratic country with close ties to the west. They want everything that other countries have. 

Don't forget that for years, Russians have gone abroad for education and vacations. They know what they don't have.

What they lack is organization and those huge rallies of millions of people who can't be stopped by police. 

They need the families of the police officers and military members joining in the protests, so the police refuse to fire upon their own families.

It will come when Putin is gone or sufficiently weakened, and with this war on Ukraine he has hastened his own demise.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The young Russians who grew up with the internet are very well informed

The Russian Boomers are very different beasts just like in the west. Both grew believing their nationalist mainstream media because it was the only information they had

Once this nationalist animal farm generation moves on we can start to patch the world up


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

m3s said:


> The young Russians who grew up with the internet are very well informed


 My cousin and his wife both in their thirties and have internet, both overwhelmingly support russian president. 
Informed but still prefer follow the evil.
Meanwhile in Kyiv a huge mall is on fire after the russian attach. “Precision weapons“ targeting only military targets. 
after your house is destroyed your loved ones are killed or wounded. You can tell russians how you feel. 
Germans had to go through a very hard time to purify their nation after WWll. It shouldn’t be different for russian fascists.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Tribal wars are like that. They go on for hundreds of years arguing about who did what to who and when.

Watch some English language India television, where they get 6 guests and they all yell at each other, pointing their fingers and railing on the past.

Watch some India - Pakistan debates or some Israel - Palestine debates........it goes on endlessly.

That happens in many countries that derived from tribes. It doesn't happen in Canada because we have a far different origin.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Firefighters rescue people from shopping mall rubble after blasts hit Kyiv – video








Firefighters rescue people from shopping mall rubble after blasts hit Kyiv – video


CCTV captures an explosion near the Retroville shopping centre in Kyiv




www.theguardian.com





to all russian fascists sympathizers. *


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

This is how russian fascists think. Living 30 years in Australia.


----------



## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> This is how russian fascists think. Living 30 years in Australia.
> View attachment 22972


Putin is like a certain fellow in the country south of Canada. He has his "base" both domestic and abroad from all walks of life. I too have a cousin, though in California. Very smart, educated, and staunch MAGA.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> This is how russian fascists think. Living 30 years in Australia.


You also have to understand how some Europeans think.
I know "Hungarians" who lived multiple generations in Germany, Russians who lived generations in other countries as well. Also I think some people need to read the definition of facist. Sheesh it gets thrown around as much a nazi these days.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Also I think some people need to read the definition of facist. Sheesh it gets thrown around as much a nazi these days.


I agree it should be substituted with ruscism. 
*Russian fascism* (also *Russicism*, *Ruscism* or *Rashism).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_fascism_(ideology)


*


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Australia is whacked. There is as much alt-right banana peeling coming out of Australia as the US. Watch _any_ clip from "Sky News Australia" on YouTube and you will see it is further into Crazyville than Fox News.




Ukrainiandude said:


> We had several anti war rallies here that I attended.


I read this to mean you have organized no rallies, as per my question. Please realize that I could condemn you for not taking part in the organizing.

The point is, you are morally wrong to defame anyone for not attending a rally. Everyone I know is heartbroken for Ukraine. There are people like me who will push for EnergyEast, funding the war, bolstering Nato's strength, and donate to the Ukraine people but will not attend a rally. Now, if those rallies were armed and on the front line of the Russian/Ukraine conflict, I would be a lot more eager to participate.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> will not attend a rally.


Please go back and read my posts again. I was arguing with other poster not you , that *russian* emigrants are not participating or organizing anti war rally or rally condemning putinism.
Are you russian emigrant?


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I was responding to your post to me that included quotes of mine (see post #490).

The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of us sympathize with Ukraine on a profound level. We admire the people for fighting. We are looking for ways to help. We don't necessarily go to rallies.

I don't see the benefit of going to a rally but my heart is broken by Putin and Russia. I also have an extremely dim view of China for supporting the invasion. Lastly, I'd like to see Canada help Europe disconnect from Russian gas and oil. We should be working hard to assist Europe in a break-away from Russia.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Also I think some people need to read the definition of facist. Sheesh it gets thrown around as much a nazi these days.


Please have a listen, it might or might not help with your scepticism.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505698750869958656


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

TomB16 said:


> Australia is whacked. There is as much alt-right banana peeling coming out of Australia as the US. Watch _any_ clip from "Sky News Australia" on YouTube and you will see it is further into Crazyville than Fox News.


Tom you are misinterpreting things. Sky News (in Australia) *is* Fox News. It's owned by Murdoch and entirely duplicates the Fox News schtick.

But nobody in Australia watches it. It's a specialized channel and is not a common subscription in Australia. So what ends up happening is, this Australian arm of Fox News is largely circulated online --- only --- where it ends up looking like another independent news source. A neat trick.

So for example they circulate on YouTube and other social media, where it helps the American right wing / Fox News propaganda machinery. IMO its main target is the American audience, not Australians.


----------



## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Where is Gibor to explain Putin's genius?


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Clickbait title as usual but one of the most interesting podcast guests I've heard talking the Russia/Ukraine conflict

Especially the part about how hard it will be to just flip oil supply lines from west to east and the global impacts on the agriculture this season.

Jump to minute 29 for the Russia/Ukraine content


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)




----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Restaurants can show their support for Ukraine with new menus that replace "Chicken Kiev" with "Chicken Moscow".


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

According to the Chinese sources the US benefits from the war. I think China will benefit as well.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)




----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> According to the Chinese sources the US benefits from the war.


China is supporting the aggressor country in this humanitarian crisis.

I hope everyone remembers this, going forward.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

my opinion the USA did not lose anything from this war.
the USA made Ukraine and Russia believe that Ukraine one day will join NATO. Which basically instigated this war. If NATO has no intentions in accepting Ukraine. Should have said No. I tend to believe this diplomatic (with Nato membership) bull sh…t from the very beginning has only one purpose, to start this war.
now by refusing in basic thirty years old planes (on made pretext) the USA want this war to continue.
the USA tricked and forced Ukraine to give its nuclear weapons to Russia. And now playing dummy with providing any significant weapons. 
when Syrian president asked for help from Russia, Russia came, despite the nuclear America presence in Syria already. Russia wasn’t feeding the WW3 bull sh..t to Syrian president. Russia came. 

Indian press
*How US Orchestrated Russia Ukraine War








How US Orchestrated Russia Ukraine War - GreatGameIndia


By tying itself to an American administration that had shown itself to be reckless and dangerous, the Ukrainians made a geopolitical blunder that statesmen will study for years to come. Understanding how exactly the US managed to orchestrate the Russia-Ukraine war has become essential at a time...




greatgameindia.com




*


----------



## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> my opinion the USA did not lose anything from this war.
> the USA made Ukraine and Russia believe that Ukraine one day will join NATO. Which basically instigated this war. If NATO has no intentions in accepting Ukraine. Should have said No. I tend to believe this diplomatic (with Nato membership) bull sh…t from the very beginning has only one purpose, to start this war. ..


In case you have forgotten, Ukraine was invaded by Russia, not by the USA. You are repeating Russian propaganda. Today the reason is NATO, tomorrow biological weapons, or genocide, or denazification, or demilitarization, or Bandera, or simply Destiny and History and Blood. Every day there is a different reason for the invasion. But the fact is, Putin and most Russians see Ukraine as a disobedient province to be punished for trying to be independent and democratic.

There was a window 30 - 25 years ago when Ukraine could try to join the EU and NATO. Ukraine preferred to be a neutral bridge between the West and Russia. To be fair, Russia looked at the time as becoming democratic. Ukraine's neighbor Poland took advantage of this window. After USSR has fallen apart, in 1992 Ukraine had a Gross National Income per capita of $2090, Poland had $2080, in 2019 Ukraine had $3310, Poland $15360.
Try to read fewer Russian sources. How about reading this guy:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498377757536968711


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Putin just signed a bill to conscript 135k people onto military service.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> Putin just signed a bill to conscript 135k people onto military service.


134 500 to be precise
Year ago spring 2021 it was 134 650


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Support for President Vladimir Putin has surged among Russians following his invasion of Ukraine, according to the country’s leading independent pollster, even as a Kremlin crackdown on protest raises questions about public willingness to express opposition to the war.

Some 83% approved of Putin’s actions as president in a March 24-30 survey of 1,632 respondents, an increase of 12 percentage points on the previous month and the highest since 2017, the Moscow-based Levada Center reported. The proportion agreeing the country is headed in the right direction jumped 17 percentage points to 69%, the highest since Levada began recording responses in 1996.








83% of Russians Approve of Putin’s Actions as President in New Survey


Support for President Vladimir Putin has surged among Russians following his invasion of Ukraine, according to the country’s leading independent pollster, even as a Kremlin crackdown on protest raises questions about public willingness to express opposition to the war.




www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509985789404459011


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Ukrainian MiG-29 Pilot's Front-Line Account Of The Air War Against Russia


A MiG-29 pilot talks tactics and tribulations in the desperate fight to keep Ukraine’s skies free from Russian domination.




www.thedrive.com





Ukraine needs desperately F-16/15 and NASAMS Air Defence Systems.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Parkuser said:


> In case you have forgotten,


In case you have forgotten. 
The relevant units and formations stationed in our country (Ukraine) were armed with 130 intercontinental missiles RS-18 (SS-19) on liquid fuel with *six nuclear warheads* each and 46 missiles RS-22 (SS-24) on solid fuel with *ten nuclear warheads each*. Also at the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union, the air component of the Soviet nuclear triad was deployed in our country. It included 21 Tu-95MS bombers and 19 Tu-160 bombers with ammunition in *500 nuclear cruise missiles*.

Each of those would suffice to turn Moscow and Saint Petersburg into radioactive ashes. But thanks to the pressure and blackmail of western countries were transferred to Russia. 
And you are saying me that western world owes nothing to Ukraine?


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

War in Ukraine: Street in Bucha found strewn with dead bodies


A reporter entering Bucha, near Kyiv, counts at least 20 bodies of men, one with his hands tied.



www.bbc.com




*War in Ukraine: Street in Bucha found strewn with dead bodies*


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

My wife and I watched that on the news about 45 minutes ago and I still feel hollow inside. I'm struggling to process that level of brutality and meaningless death.

That sort of conduct causes people like me to hope Ukrainians kill as many Russians as possible in the east, where the fighting is moving to. We need to get as many armaments as possible into Ukraine to incinerate as much evil as we possibly can.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Mass graves have been found with bodies that have been shot with their hands still tied behind their backs. Sickening.

If Putin wants to de-Nazify Ukraine, he needs to pull his invasion force from the country.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1510671563833630720


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Germany has moved to nationalize Gazprom.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I just read an article on mass layoffs in Russia. With so much misinformation floating around, it is difficult to have a lot of clarity (this is by design) but it does have some credibility.

It seems that Russia also has a humanitarian crisis, although it pales in comparison to what is going on in Ukraine. Still, poverty will kill some Russian people.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Until western countries value a few percentage points drop from growth more than life’s of Ukrainian people and continue subsidize russian war machine with oil and gas money, nothing major will change.


Bloomberg Economics predicting Russia will earn nearly $321 billion from energy exports this year, more than a third more than 2021
The Institute of International Finance estimating the current account surplus will rise to a record $240 billion
TS Lombard reckoning the mix of a steep ruble depreciation and a higher dollar price for oil will generate an extra 8.5 trillion rubles ($103 billion) in budget revenue this year.
Bloomberg


----------



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Putin and US Republicans say "Fake News" and the victims are "Paid Distress Actors".


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Tostig said:


> Putin and US Republicans say "Fake News" and the victims are "Paid Distress Actors".


Man, I remember not too long ago the Russians were the US Republicans most feared boogeyman and enemy, now they match in-step with Russia just to spite the Democrats. There's something to be said about partisan politics.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

A few hours ago, I watched a news clip interview of Ukrainians in Bocha and another city Russia has pulled out of. They said Russian troops showed up at the door, ask where the Nazis are, and then shoot people who wouldn't tell them.

Putin cannot die quickly enough.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

It wouldn't surprise me if Putin and his generals haven't lost control over the Russian military in Ukraine.

Maybe those Russian generals were killed by their own soldiers and not Ukrainians. It is known as "fragging" superior officers you don't like.

These Russian soliders are also not likely regular army forces. They are conscripts with little training and quite possibly are criminals out of prisons to fight.

The whole story will come out some day..


----------



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

bgc_fan said:


> Man, I remember not too long ago the Russians were the US Republicans most feared boogeyman and enemy, now they match in-step with Russia just to spite the Democrats. There's something to be said about partisan politics.


I wouldn't be surprised if some US Republicans would prefer Putin over Biden as US President.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*The EU is paying 35 times as much for Russian fuel as it's given Ukraine for defense, chief diplomat says*
The amount of money the European Union has given Russia for fuel since its invasion is 35 times more than what it's given Ukraine for defense, the bloc's foreign policy chief said.

Josep Borrell told the European Parliament on Wednesday that since the invasion, the bloc had paid Russia 35 billion euros ($38 billion) for fuel and sent Ukraine 1 billion euros ($1.09 billion) to bolster its defense against Russia, the BBCreported.

"We have to help [the Ukrainians] defend themselves ... We have given Ukraine 1 billion euros. It might seem a lot but 1 billion euros is what we pay Putin every day for the energy he provides us," he said, according to the BBC.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I saw this news as well. Putin knew that the West would not be able to cut off his money supply quickly and easily. I do think he overestimated the resistance he faced as well as the severity of the sanctions. I am sure at some point intel will be released linking who picked up the excess trade and funds. There is always someone willing to supply and profit from every event. Unfortunately, there will be more suffering for both Ukrainians and Russians before there is peace. This is the nature of war. Often times, many innocent people pay the cost for the ambitions of a few. 

Slightly related, I am reading a book titled The Great Convergence Asia, the West and the logic of one world. It was written a decade ago. It professed that there was and would be less international conflict and less victimization of war because of globalization. I guess we're not quite as far along that path as we thought.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Compare the size of Estonia and its economy to the USA, Germany or Canada.
*Estonia's €220-million military aid to Ukraine substantially diversified








Estonia's €220-million military aid to Ukraine substantially diversified


Military, medical and technical aid being sent from Estonia to Ukraine has been substantially diversified in recent weeks, the Center for Defense Investment (RKK) says, with consignments either on the way or already in Ukraine totaling €220 million.




news.err.ee




*Canada 
Trudeau also announced Wednesday Canada would send another $50 million in specialized equipment, including Canadian-made cameras for surveillance drones, to help Ukraine defend itself against the Russian invasion.

Canada previously said it was shipping non-lethal equipment such as body vests and helmets, as well as more than $10 million in weapons such as machine-guns, rocket launchers and hand grenades.








Ukraine can't negotiate with 'gun to head,' says Joly as Trudeau presses allies


Canada's foreign affairs minister called for a ceasefire in Russia's invasion of Ukraine on Wednesday, arguing the Ukrainian government needs the breathing room as it heads into talks with the Putin regime.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512733846911041541


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

WTF!?!


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

BUCHA, UKRAINE — A mother killed by a sniper while walking with her family to fetch a thermos of tea. A woman held as a sex slave, naked except for a fur coat and locked in a potato cellar before being executed. Two sisters dead in their home, their bodies left slumped on the floor for weeks.

Bucha is a landscape of horrors.

From the first day of the war, Feb. 24, civilians bore the brunt of the Russian assault on Bucha, a few miles west of Kyiv, Ukraine’s capital. Russian special forces approaching on foot through the woods shot at cars on the road, and a column of armored vehicles fired on and killed a woman in her garden as they drove into the suburb.

But those early cruelties paled in comparison to what came after.

As the Russian advance on Kyiv stalled in the face of fierce resistance, civilians said, the enemy occupation of Bucha slid into a campaign of terror and revenge. When a defeated and demoralized Russian Army finally retreated, it left behind a grim tableau: bodies of dead civilians strewn on streets, in basements or in backyards, many with gunshot wounds to their heads, some with their hands tied behind their backs.

Reporters and photographers for The New York Times spent more than a week with city officials, coroners and scores of witnesses in Bucha, uncovering new details of execution-style atrocities against civilians. The Times documented the bodies of almost three dozen people where they were killed — in their homes, in the woods, set on fire in a vacant parking lot — and learned the story behind many of their deaths. The Times also witnessed more than 100 body bags at a communal grave and the city’s cemetery.

The evidence suggests the Russians killed recklessly and sometimes sadistically, in part out of revenge.








Bucha’s Month of Terror


We documented dozens of killings of civilians and interviewed scores of witnesses to uncover Russian atrocities in Ukraine.



www.nytimes.com


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

"You sunk my battleship!"










Not just any ship... Ukraine sunk Russia's flagship


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> "You sunk my battleship!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*More than 7,000 unclaimed dead Russian soldiers stored in Ukrainian morgues, government says*
"They said, 'We don't believe in such quantities. We don't have this number. We're not ready to accept them,'" Arestovych told the paper about the reaction of the Russian authorities.
More than 1,500 dead Russian soldiers are held in morgues in Dnipro, Ukraine, its deputy mayor Mykhailo Lysenko said on the TV channel Current Time on April 13.
According to reports, Russia has also transported thousands of dead soldiers to Belarus from Ukraine to disguise the number of soldiers killed.
Zelenskyy has criticized Russia's refusal to repatriate its dead soldiers, claiming that Russia is giving them less respect than is typically given to dead pets.








More than 7,000 unclaimed dead Russian soldiers stored in Ukrainian morgues, government says


Ukraine says up to 7,000 unclaimed corpses of Russian soldiers in its morgues




africa.businessinsider.com


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Dictatorships are so dangerous.

They won't even send the dead men's bodies home. The Kremlin will tell the mothers that they didn't have any sons.

Also,









Russian Mothers Say Their Sons Sent to Ukraine as 'Cannon Fodder'


"We were all deceived, all deceived. They were sent there as cannon fodder. They are young. They were unprepared," one Russian mother said.




www.newsweek.com


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Dictatorships are so dangerous.


That's why the cult of Trudeau is so dangerous.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> cult of Trudeau


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> That's why the cult of Trudeau is so dangerous.


I think this kind of rhetoric is very insulting to people who live in actual dictatorships. Or maybe you're really clueless about what bad / oppressive governments actually are like.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think this kind of rhetoric is very insulting to people who live in actual dictatorships. Or maybe you're really clueless about what bad / oppressive governments actually are like.


We have a PM who tried to give a billion dollars to his friends.
He appointed parachute candidates, despite the opposition of the local EDAs.
He interfered with a criminal trial.
He spread misinformation regarding COVID19, and tried to block other information on COVID19, resulting in the deaths of Canadians.
He used anti-terrorism laws to deal with peaceful protestors.
He openly admires dictatorships.
These are only a few of the things that are public knowledge.

No, he isn't Putin, not even close.
But he's no supporter of democracy.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> That's why the cult of Trudeau is so dangerous.


Wanna trade him for putin?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Wanna trade him for putin?


Not for Putin, not for Kim Jong-un.

Talk about whataboutism.
Sure there are worse people out there.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Wanna trade him for putin?


Nope, I want to trade him for Pierre Poilievre.

ltr


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am still dumbfounded that Putin actually continued this war to the point it is now at. I thought he might invade and seize a small bit of land and then retrench.

What confuses me is that Russia was re-entering into the global community. They were participating in joint ventures in space, Olympics, world events, and business was going to Russia. Life was much better for the Russian people. Russia was gaining a lot of respect in the world.

Then Putin does this and throws it all away ? I don't get his motivation, despite listening to the "experts" saying it was his plan all along.

There is no upside for Putin here. Russia will be a pariah for years now. The Russian people will suffer needlessly. It just doesn't make any sense.

So...I fear that Putin is very sick mentally, and presents a danger to using nuclear weapons. Maybe he has a brain tumor or something.

Even if Putin were to overtake Ukraine, Russia will never own them. Even if Russia controls Ukraine it likely wouldn't last long. It would be a never ending war.

Anyone got any ideas of why Putin did this........that make any sense at all ?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I am still dumbfounded that Putin actually continued this war to the point it is now at.
> 
> .... (edited)...
> 
> Anyone got any ideas of why Putin did this........that make any sense at all ?


Do you want to be the one to tell Putin that he's wrong. FYI people outside Russia don't seem to fall out of windows nearly as often as the Russian political class. I'm not sure it's the Vodka (I drink Finnish vodka, so I'm good)

Perhaps you want to give Kim Jong-un some bad news?








Report: N. Korea executes officials with anti-aircraft guns for 'enraging' Kim Jong Un


Kim Jong Un has reportedly executed or purged a large number of high-level government officials since taking power in 2011.



www.usatoday.com




"*Report: N. Korea executes officials with anti-aircraft guns for 'enraging' Kim Jong Un*"

Dictators love their sycophants.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

That doesn't explain why Putin put himself in this position.

What does he think the ending will be ?.....oh, welcome back Vlad ?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> That doesn't explain why Putin put himself in this position.
> 
> What does he think the ending will be ?.....oh, welcome back Vlad ?


Putins objectives might not be what we assume them to be.

He is operating from different information than we are.

Some people think that we should just let him keep Donbas & Crimea, if those were his objectives, he succeeded.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> He is operating from different information than we are.


Surely he has the internet?

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Surely he has the internet?


Yeah, and I wouldn't expect any world leader to google "What is my militaries status".

Secondly Russia is clearly behind a number of cyberattacks and disinformation campaigns, so they'd likely be skeptical of any source that would be susceptible to similar attacks.


----------



## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> Yeah, and I wouldn't expect any world leader to google "What is my militaries status".
> 
> Secondly Russia is clearly behind a number of cyberattacks and disinformation campaigns, so they'd likely be skeptical of any source that would be susceptible to similar attacks.


I don't really know what world leaders do, but if I was in charge of an invasion against another country, I would probably try and get a sense of how it's perceived by the world beyond what my advisors were telling me. It's pretty much a consensus how the world and just about every web site and news organization perceives this war. To be _skeptical_ of every news source available would be quite a stretch for even a madman. 

Either way, I think Putin has a really good idea what the world thinks of him and his war. So it isn't a lack of information he suffers from, rather that he doesn't care.

ltr


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Either way, I think Putin has a really good idea what the world thinks of him and his war. So it isn't a lack of information he suffers from, rather that he doesn't care.


Again the real question is what is his objective.
We don't know what he's trying to accomplish. 
Seems like people are asking "what is he thinking", and the short answer is "very differently from you".


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Russia sanctions 61 Canadian officials, including Toronto mayor

This is soooo-funny. As if Tory is gonna to be visiting Moscow anytime soon.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1518022964658200576








Mother and baby ‘killed in missile attack on Ukraine’s Odesa’


A Ukrainian woman and her three-month-old baby are among eight people killed in missile attacks on Odesa, officials say.




www.aljazeera.com


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

So we are supplying weapons to Ukraine while the Europeans evaded sanctions to supply Russia with weapons ?

I also read the Europeans are buying gas from Russia, that is delivered via a pipeline controlled by the Ukrainians.









Exclusive: France and Germany evaded arms embargo to sell weapons to Russia


Paris and Berlin sent Moscow £230m of military hardware, including bombs, rockets and missiles, that is likely being used in Ukraine




www.telegraph.co.uk













Russia is still paying Ukraine for gas flows as war continues


As daily gas flows from Russia surged, Ukraine also raised $206 million from a domestic bonds auction to help fund its military resistance




nationalpost.com


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> So we are supplying weapons to Ukraine while the Europeans evaded sanctions to supply Russia with weapons ?


4 artillery guns is embarrassing. But better than nothing.

Also I haven't heard any reports Europeans are evading sanctions, care to share a non-paywalled link?








France and Germany 'sold £230million of military hardware to Moscow'


They were able to sell the equipment using a backdoor technicality that permitted contracts signed before August 1, 2014, or additional contracts that would help conclude those deals.




www.dailymail.co.uk





It's not "evading sanctions", when the items are being sold in compliance with the sanctions. Which the non-paywalled article I linked to documents.



> I also read the Europeans are buying gas from Russia, that is delivered via a pipeline controlled by the Ukrainians.


Yeah, people have been complaining for years about the dependence on Russian oil, and the failure of Europe to diversify to Canadian or US oil supplies.
The green movement basically made Europe dependent on Russian oil to survive, which was a MASSIVE strategic error.
But the green movement is also full of idiots who say things like "we don't need a military", they're the type of a$#[email protected] who pushed for Ukraine to give up their nukes in exchange for "security promises" from Russia.

If Europe was not dependant on Russian energy for their survival the sanctions would have even more bite, and this whole mess might not have happened.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

So it isn't evading sanctions by using a "backdoor technicality" to supply weapons to Russia so they can kill Ukrainians ?

That kind of logic by countries near the conflict and at higher risk from Russia, convinces me that Canada shouldn't be involved at all.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> So it isn't evading sanctions by using a "backdoor technicality" to supply weapons to Russia so they can kill Ukrainians ?
> 
> That kind of logic by countries near the conflict and at higher risk from Russia, convinces me that Canada shouldn't be involved at all.


No complying with the sanctions is not evading sanctions.

Remember, you're talking about the 2014 sanctions, western countries had nearly a decade to lessen their dependance on Russian energy, but didn't.
Canada, as a NATO member with some of the largest oil reserves in the world failed here as well.

The west bascially failed to treat Russia as the hostile nation it is, and the Ukraine is paying the price. 
I hope we realize this and stop treating other hostile nations as harmless.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

like_to_retire said:


> Nope, I want to trade him for Pierre Poilievre.


Ah yes, the fake populist crypto promoter.

What a clown.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Ah yes, the fake populist crypto promoter.
> 
> What a clown.


Well I'd prefer the clown in suit to the clown in random cultural costumes.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I would not be against the US giving Ukraine a few nuclear weapons.

If Russia nukes a Ukrainian city, I'd like to see Moscow deleted from the game.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Interviews with foreign fighters in Ukraine raise questions about where all the military hardware sent to Ukraine is being held.

The fighters on the front lines say they haven't seen any of it, and have barely any weapons.

In response to questions, the Pentagon said they give the weapons to Ukraine and don't tell them how to deploy them.

There has also been a lot of video on the internet proposing to show Ukrainians blowing jet fighter and helicopters out of the skies.

The videos are actually from video games. There are some strange things going on over there.

The last thing the US should do is give nuclear weapons to Ukraine if they don't even know where their other weapons are being deployed.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> I would not be against the US giving Ukraine a few nuclear weapons.
> 
> If Russia nukes a Ukrainian city, I'd like to see Moscow deleted from the game.


Let’s be realistic, so far the USA is reluctant to provide much less destructive HIMARS and MRLS. Never mind nukes.


----------



## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

sags said:


> Interviews with foreign fighters in Ukraine raise questions about where all the military hardware sent to Ukraine is being held.
> 
> The fighters on the front lines say they haven't seen any of it, and have barely any weapons.
> 
> ...


Source?


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Here's why these foreigners are fighting on Ukraine's front lines | CNN


Two former US Marines and a former Canadian armed forces sergeant explain why they decided to fight on the front lines in Ukraine and describe the challenges they face on the battlefield. CNN's Isa Soares reports.




www.cnn.com


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Let’s be realistic, so far the USA is reluctant to provide much less destructive HIMARS and MRLS. Never mind nukes.


Ukraine has scientists and engineers. They can make their own nuclear weapons and they should have already started. Delivery systems shouldn't be a problem, since they share a fence with the most evil nation on earth. Moscow is something like 750km from Ukraine territory, as the missile flies. They will have to keep the yield down to keep from killing themselves with too much fallout.

Without Nukes, Ukraine will always be under existential thread.

Russia will have a new leader in a few years. If Ukraine is still an independent state at that time, they will have to deal with a new assholeski in the Kremlin. The odds of the next leader being a good human being are extreme low. The next person will undoubtedly be a better person, they may even think genocide is a bad thing, but they aren't going to give Ukraine it's territory back.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

TomB16 said:


> They can make their own nuclear weapons and they should have already started.


Yes, and they have plutonium readily available from at least 8 different nuclear plants.

But in Dec 1994 they signed the non-proliferation treaty and gave up all their nukes, in exchange for the now-worthless guaranty's of border integrity from the US, UK and non other than Russia. Were it my decision, I think I would give notice that the NPT is not worth the paper it's printed on and Ukraine is leaving immediately.


----------



## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

gardner said:


> But in Dec 1994 they signed the non-proliferation treaty and gave up all their nukes...


If they still have an operational coal plant, they could throw that treaty in the furnace and get a few BTU out of it.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A few nukes could destroy a couple of Russian cities, but Ukraine would be left a smoking hole in the ground.

_Russia's nuclear threat to Ukraine and NATO brings to the fore what is known as the *Tsar Bomba*, a weapon of mass destruction that is 3,800 times more powerful than the nuclear bomb that hit Hiroshima in 1945.

Also known as RDS-220 or RDS-202, the *Tsar Bomba* is a hydrogen fusion bomb that was tested on October 30, 1961, during the Cold War, and it was visible at a distance of more than 1,000 km from the epicentre of its explosion, rose to a height of 67 km and had a peak width of 95 km._









Tsar Bomba, Russia's weapon of mass destruction: 3,800 times more powerful than an atomic bomb


On February 27, 2022, Vladimir Putin ordered that the Russian nuclear forces be put on high alert after launching military attacks against neighbouring country Ukraine. Meanwhile,




www.marca.com


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The point is that through MAD, none of them would be by used an Ukraine's territorial integrity would be respected. Similar reason as why N Korea has nuclear deterrent.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

andrewf said:


> The point is that through MAD, none of them would be by used an Ukraine's territorial integrity would be respected. Similar reason as why N Korea has nuclear deterrent.


Ukraine transferred its nukes to Russia under the pressure from the USA and Russia.

*In 1994, the US succeeded in convincing Ukraine to give up its nukes but failed to secure its future*
In March 1994, I stood in a chilly, windswept field in the fertile farmlands of Pervomaysk, Ukraine, where, as the last of the spring snow was melting, William Perry and other U.S. officials were peering into a deep underground missile silo to see something that wasn't there.

I had traveled to Pervomaysk with Perry, the first U.S. defense secretary, to visit a former Soviet ICBM base to observe how U.S. tax dollars were helping to fund the denuclearization of Ukraine, a top priority of the Clinton administration.

Perry's tour guide, Ukrainian Defense Minister Vitaly Radetsky, pointed to a Soviet SS-24 intercontinental ballistic missile still in the ground, but with its nose cone containing 10 independently targeted warheads gone, loaded on rail cars and shipped to Russia for dismantling.


https://denvergazette.com/news/in-1994-the-us-succeeded-in-convincing-ukraine-to-give-up-its-nukes-but-failed/article_6d1c378d-4d53-52a6-8ad1-b7cea6223b56.html



*more on how the USA jointly with Russia [email protected] Ukraine over.*

When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, *Ukraine housed 130 SS-19 ICBMs — each capable of carrying six nuclear warheads *— in underground silos. *A single SS-19 warhead had an estimated nuclear yield more than 20 times that of the bomb that leveled Hiroshima in 1945. *In addition, 46 SS-24 ICBMs, individually capable of carrying 10 nuclear warheads, were deployed in central Ukraine, giving the country a total of 176 ICBMs. The newly independent country also inherited 44 Tu-95 Bear-H and Tu-160 Blackjack strategic bombers, as well as hundreds of Kh-55 nuclear air-launched cruise missiles to arm those aircraft.
In December 1994, Clinton, Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma (who succeeded Kravchuk), Yeltsin, and British Prime Minister John Major signed the Budapest memorandum, which committed the United States, Russia, and Britain “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.” The agreement noted that “none of their [U.S., Russian, and British] weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.”
Ukraine lacked the resources to dismantle the missiles, bombers, and missile silos on its territory. The United States agreed to provide the Nunn-Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction Program assistance to cover those costs.
compensation for the commercial value of the highly-enriched uranium in the nuclear warheads.

the enriched uranium along costs a fortune and Ukraine got paid pennies.

why did not the USA and Russia tell this to Ukraine in 1994 ?
*The Budapest memorandum is a politically-binding agreement rather than a legally-binding treaty.









Honoring Neither the Letter Nor the Law


Russia has failed to fulfill its obligations under 1994's Budapest Memorandum, in which Ukraine exchanged its nuclear weapons for Russia's recognition of its sovereignty. Steven Pifer writes that the United States' protection of this agreement is vital to protecting the value of security...




www.brookings.edu




*


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Ukraine gave up SS-19 to keep the USA safe. Now in return the USA can even provide HIMARS and MLRS that Ukrainian military is begging for over a month. 
The USA gives weapons to Ukraine just enough to keep from losing, but nothing that could give Ukraine the ability to strike russian airports, air defences, militarily compounds within russian occupied areas or russian neighbouring areas.
Ukrainian president said that Ukrainian armed forces could have de blocked Mariupol if the USA provided heavy weapons requested by Ukraine.
Ukraine is not asking for American soldiers or American nukes. But only for simple long range rocket artillery. 
I honestly don’t understand why it wasn’t delivered yet, more than two months of bloody war.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Ukraine has 'crucial' need of multiple launch rocket systems, chief commander says.*
KYIV, May 5 (Reuters) - The chief commander of Ukraine's armed forces said on Thursday his country needed multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS) to defend against Russian cruise missiles.

*General Valeriy Zaluzhnyi *said after briefing U.S. General Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the military situation in Ukraine that Russia had resumed cruise missile strikes.

"Therefore, the issue of providing Ukraine with multiple launch missile systems such as *M142 HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket System) and M270 MLRS is crucial*," he said.
*








Ukraine has 'crucial' need of multiple launch rocket systems, chief commander says


The chief commander of Ukraine's armed forces said on Thursday his country needed multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS) to defend against Russian cruise missiles.




www.reuters.com




*


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

What a hero! This 15 year old girl bicycled from her home to two injured men. They needed to get to a hospital.

She got into the car of one of the injured men, and took 4 passengers. Driving towards the hospital, they came under fire from Russians.

The girl took at least 4 bullets in the legs, but kept driving until they found Ukrainian troops. Unbelievable story.

The story here


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US has drawn down it's stockpile of weapons to the point that some transfers to Ukraine have stopped.

Weapon supplier Raytheon says a shortage of raw materials means it will take a year to begin replenishing the US stockpile.

President Biden is seeking billions from the Congress, but so far Congress has failed to act on the request.

It looks like some kind of negotiated settlement is inevitable. Ukraine needs to accept the reality to stop further unnecessary suffering.









Push to arm Ukraine may put strain on U.S. weapons stockpile


When President Joe Biden visits a Lockheed Martin plant on Tuesday that manufactures an antitank weapons system, he's certain to herald the U.S.-made arms as a gamechanger in Ukraine's stiff resistance to the Russian invasion.




www.pbs.org


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

james4beach said:


> What a hero!


Epic girl. 🖤

The Ukrainian people have demonstrated many of the best traits in humanity. I Love Ukraine.

I will visit Ukraine at the first opportunity after the war is over. Hopefully, they will have bust of Vladimir Putin on a pike for tourists to visit.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Harrowing photos offer rare glimpse of wounded soldiers in besieged Mariupol steel plant.
"We're standing tall on missing legs," Lt. Ilya Samoilenko said. "We hold weapons in lost arms. We are in a fight, and we are going to fight until the end."








Harrowing photos offer rare glimpse of wounded soldiers in besieged Mariupol steel plant


Lt. Ilya Samoilenko, a Ukrainian officer, shared images of his injured comrades.




www.today.com




*


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

"Our lives mean nothing. Our fight means everything. National security means everything to us"


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Here is a good explaining why Azov fighters can’t surrender, it will mean torture and death.
Video with English subtitles.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

Russia Ruble (RUB USD) Price Quote Surges to 7-Year High - Bloomberg

It was my understanding was that the sanctions were to weaken the Russian currency. Putin seems to have those dependent on Russian energy over a barrel. How is it that none of these nation's intelligence were able get out in front of this 6 months ago when troops started positioning themselves for invasion? I am sure there are countries other than Russia that are benefiting from this war. Some are even surmising that the supply chain issues in China aren't as drastic as we are led to believe and instead an attempt to throw the highly import dependent Western world into turmoil. I would think that is rather drastic as their economy would also be hit hard as a result.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

londoncalling said:


> sanctions


Europe still buying oil from russia 
russia gets billion of dollars daily for oil and gas


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I understand that there is still a lot of purchasing at a much higher rate due to the price of oil escalating. I know that hindsight is 20-20 but in an era where we have so much access to information I find it difficult to believe that Europe made no effort to find a contingency plan prior to invasion. I guess I give our global leadership too much credit sometimes.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

londoncalling said:


> Europe made no effort to find a contingency plan prior to invasion.


Europe did not expect Ukraine to last this long, Europe expected this to be a three day war and get back to trading with Russia as usual. 
I just learned that tiny Estonia in three months gave to Ukraine one third of it military budget. Small country with big heart.
Meanwhile Germany is looking for thousands of excuses not to supply anything of weapons, as not to upset russian comrades and business partners.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

I watched a CNN report that a Russian soldier killed some other injured Russian soldiers, rather than recovering them for treatment. That is Marvel movie levels of savagery.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

TomB16 said:


> I watched a CNN report that a Russian soldier killed some other injured Russian soldiers, rather than recovering them for treatment. That is Marvel movie levels of savagery.


Extreme reports like that I would take with a grain of salt.
War is no longer played out just on the ground - there is a full scale information war.
And Ukraine is winning it - handily. A lot of reports that seem to be too good to be true, or too evil to be true, most likely are fake. There has been countless examples of that over last 90 days so keep a cool head when it comes to reactions from 'reports'.

There is no argument who is the aggressor here and who is the defender. Who is to be condemned for this and who has moral high ground - very few are disputing that. The (dis)information war is happening from both sides though


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> grain of salt


*Captive Russian troops claim commanders kill their own wounded soldiers*
Captured Russian soldiers have accused their commanders of killing their own wounded troops rather than recovering them from the battlefield and sending them for treatment.

In a harrowing account to Ukrainian journalist Volodymyr Zolkin, the young intelligence soldiers described how one lieutenant colonel asked a wounded comrade if he could walk, the Mirror reported.

When the badly injured soldier replied that he could not, the high-ranking officer reportedly shot him – as well as several others — dead.

Another soldier told Zolkin, who has reported about Russian prisoners for Open Media Ukraine, that officers have “finished off their wounded.”

When the journalist asked him to elaborate, the soldier answered: “Just like that … a wounded soldier is lying on the ground, and a battalion commander shoots him dead from a gun,” according to the outlet.

“It was a young man, he was wounded,” he added. “He was on the ground. He was asked if he could walk, so he was shot dead with a gun.”
Another captive said the lieutenant colonel “shot four or five like this.”

A third told Zolkin that their wounded comrades “could have been rescued, given help, taken out of there. He simply shot them dead.”

It was unclear from the video where the alleged atrocity took place, where the soldiers being interviewed had been captured and what unit they belonged to.

it has a video of interview with POWs








Captive Russian troops claim commanders kill their own wounded soldiers


Captured Russian soldiers have accused their commanders of killing their own wounded troops rather than recovering them from the battlefield and sending them for treatment.




nypost.com













Russian Officers Killing Their Own Wounded, Say Captured Soldiers in Video


"The lieutenant-colonel was walking around," captured Russian soldiers claimed. "He shot four or five like this. They were all young men."




www.newsweek.com


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

TomB16 said:


> Russian soldier killed some other injured Russian soldiers


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

londoncalling said:


> I understand that there is still a lot of purchasing at a much higher rate due to the price of oil escalating. I know that hindsight is 20-20 but in an era where we have so much access to information I find it difficult to believe that Europe made no effort to find a contingency plan prior to invasion. I guess I give our global leadership too much credit sometimes.


The green lobby made it politically untenable to explore options. They blocked every possible alternative.
Anyone who was paying attention knew this.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> We aren't sending anti-tank weapons.
> 
> The 84mm Carl Gustav isn't an effective anti-tank weapon, hasn't been for decades.
> https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/318/192/harvey.pdf (page 8)
> ...


Looks like they got them

Training looks a bit different than I remember though. Where's his fire team partner?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1538530328515690498


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