# Conservative leadership debate in Saskatoon



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Is this going to be broadcast anywhere other than the CBC? Will it be streamed to the net?

Does anyone know?


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Its supposed to livestream on http://www.conservative.ca/leadership/en/saskatoon


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Its supposed to livestream on http://www.conservative.ca/leadership/en/saskatoon


That's just your opinion.

Also,... thanks. lol!


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Does anyone know how the leadership votes work? Do people vote online or is there a requirement to show up at a leadership to vote in person?

If someone were to join the CPC, what would stop them from joining the Liberal and NDP parties, also? In other words, what would stop someone from voting in all three leadership races?


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

CPC does mail-in voting, is my understanding.

I don't think any of the parties have rules preventing members also having membership of other parties.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Thank you.

I've come to realize, I need to put more energy into our political system and less energy into bitching.

This isn't going to be easy. I enjoy bitching.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

It turns out, in order to join the part, you have to testify that you support the principles of the party and that you do not belong to any other party.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Where does it say that? I had not been able to find anything on their site to support that.

I don't know how one would enforce such a rule. What's to stop someone party-hopping for each leadership race? After all, party members are complete nobodies between decadal leadership races anyway.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Agreed. I think you've nailed it but you have to click a box proclaiming several things, before joining, including the two items I mentioned.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm watching the debate, right now.

This was a waste of perfectly good optimism. 100% support of TPP among the 12 candidates. The best we could hope for is perhaps a slight more discerning immigration policy with one of the candidates but all want high numbers.

I see no point in voting against Trudeau for these clowns.

Next party....


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Conservatives need the support of new Canadians to get elected. That is not going to happen if they run on an anti-immigration platform. 

Being opposed to immigration in general is going to be a tough sell in Canada. What proportion of Canadians are first or second generation?


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

andrewf said:


> Conservatives need the support of new Canadians to get elected. That is not going to happen if they run on an anti-immigration platform.


How are they going to accomplish that? New immigrants seem to love Justin?




andrewf said:


> Being opposed to immigration in general is going to be a tough sell in Canada. What proportion of Canadians are first or second generation?


We could start a thread to discuss opposition to immigration in general, but I prefer to not alter the topic of this thread.

As the number of my friends who have been laid off and replaced by non-Canadians goes up, I find myself in a position to vote for anyone who will shut down the guest worker program and keep immigration reasonable. It's ridiculous.

One of the candidates in the debate said he thought 230K was about the correct number and he would go even lower if unemployment is less than 7%. ... and he was the least aggressive on immigration.

Companies don't post jobs anymore and they certainly don't read resumes. Small to medium companies use a web application to vet resumes. No candidates? Well... there are clearly no qualified people... but there are qualified people. I have friends with degrees, industry certifications, and really good work experience. I'm not talking about bums who don't want to work. These are decent workers. One of them has been unemployed for two years. Three others are passing the one year mark with no end in sight.

Large corporations go straight to the guest worker pool. They use contracting companies to fully resource non-public facing departments with guest workers.

I can't say more right now but, being on the inside, it is horrifying.

Does anyone here know a teenager who got a summer job without the use of nepotism? Anyone?

Laying off Canadians and replacing them with guest workers is straight up traitorism. My wife and I are now looking to retire outside of Canada. Ten years ago when retirement first came onto the horizon, we both agreed that we wouldn't dream of leaving Canada for more than brief periods of vacation. Now I can see it will be a tough few years of watching more and more of my friends hit the skids before we can get out. I don't relish it.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't know, I work for a big evil corporation, and when I hire people, we post jobs and read resumes. We have used the guest worker program, but that was in an area with <4% unemployment for a relatively low-pay, difficult job.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

The problem is, I am friends with a few of the folks these programs are brutalizing. It's tough to watch. My vote will go to support the people I care about. I could care less about the party or a single other bit of the platform, philosophy, or whatever.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Maybe it's just a matter of expanding one's circle of empathy. I empathize with people wanting to move to Canada, work hard and make a better life for themselves and their families. Same reason I empathize with workers in other countries getting better jobs and standard of living through offshoring of low-end manufacturing, garment manufacturing, etc.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

andrewf said:


> Maybe it's just a matter of expanding one's circle of empathy. I empathize with people wanting to move to Canada, work hard and make a better life for themselves and their families. Same reason I empathize with workers in other countries getting better jobs and standard of living through offshoring of low-end manufacturing, garment manufacturing, etc.


While you're at it, why don't you throw your children out of the house to provide lodging to some guest workers? You will be building a better life for some people. You know, giving them a good start!

Look, I like all people but Canadians should come first. Canadians have paid taxes, been forcibly subjected to the laws of Canada, and have done nothing to deserve being subverted. If they are bad workers, that's different. In this case, all bets are off.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ 

https://www.effectivealtruism.org/

Of course, you're indulging in the lump of labour fallacy. Immigrants are not a drain on the economy overall. The effects are not felt evenly, though, and the 'losers' from immigration should be supported. I'm less sold on bringing in guest workers for jobs Canadians would readily do. That strikes me as exploitative if there is no path to citizenship. Guest workers in industries like agriculture is a no-brainer, unless you think your friends/family with employment challenges should be picking apples and radishes for 12h a day for minimum wage.

I'll note that everyone in my team at work is either an immigrant or a child of immigrants. Your subjective experience is informing your point of view; you should probably try to relate to people who have my experience. There are a lot of us.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Being opposed to immigration in general is going to be a tough sell in Canada. What proportion of Canadians are first or second generation?


I'm not against immigration, but against refugees and "guest workers" on business visas that can be extended for years 


> Laying off Canadians and replacing them with guest workers is straight up traitorism.


 This what happened in our company.... After we were sold to Indian one, more than 70% of Canadians were laid off and replaced by Indians, some work offshore , some came to Canada and somehow after 1 years they getting PR. Last months I was laid off.



> My wife and I are now looking to retire outside of Canada. Ten years ago ex when retirement first came onto the horizon, we both agreed that we wouldn't dream of leaving Canada for more than brief periods of vacation.


We're still planning to take long-term vacations , but who knows?!


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Of course, we should never have allowed you into the country, right gibor? You took jobs away from honest, hard-working Canadians!


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My parents came to Canada on a boat. One fought for Canada in WW2, the other was in the British Army. 

All they wanted was to make a better life for themselves and have more resources and opportunity for their children. No different than current immigrants. As a first generation Canadian I welcome immigration. Diversity and muliculturalism does not frighten me because it enhances our country.

I have little respect for gutless politicians who use the terms law and order, Canadian values,or family values without defining them. I have a different set of family values than my spouse, and our two adult children probably have somewhat different family values to mine or to hers. Same with so called Canadian values. The way Leitch uses it seems to me to be code for something I would rather not talk about.  After all, what does she propose? Ask someone if they like maple syrup, perhaps poutine, or ask them if they support gay marriage? The Conservatives are really disappointing me. We need a strong opposition. Alas, this looks like it is not to be.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Of course, we should never have allowed you into the country, right gibor? You took jobs away from honest, hard-working Canadians!


andrew, do you have difficulties in comprehension?!
We came to Canada not as refugees, not as business visa workers, but as independent immigrants! If you don't understand the difference, I cannot help you. layful:


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

andrewf said:


> Of course, we should never have allowed you into the country, right gibor? You took jobs away from honest, hard-working Canadians!


Touche.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

A touch of reality:

1. Bringing in a foreign worker from the pool under Express Entry is a huge pain. 

It's costly. They don't speak English as well as the locals. They don't have qualifications which are accepted in Canada. If security clearances are required, it can take years. It requires LMIA = takes time and money and may not be allowed at the end of this process. No company would bring a foreign worker under this program if there is any choice.

Very few people actually immigrate as qualified workers. The new program is called "Express entry". 31,000 invitations were issued in 2015. Just 10,000 people actually made it. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/reports/ee-year-end-2015.asp

2. Temporary Foreign Worker program brings in more people, but far fewer than in the recent past. 

Many of the same issues apply, see 1. Foreign students who pay a lot of $s to study in Canada and refugees fall under this class. If we are bringing refugees in... Do we really want them to stay on benefits and have taxpayer fund the whole thing (as we often do anyway)? 

3. Some workers in some industries are hurt by this. 

The only obvious one is IT. It's nothing to do with foreign workers in Canada though. To stop this process we'd have to uninvent internet and email. It's just too easy to hire cheaper labour abroad in this industry; in fact it's often the only way if a company wants to stay competitive. 

4. In general, it's not a zero sum game. 

Companies bring in workers from abroad when they have to; it allows them to compete, survive and grow. That helps everyone in Canada a lot more than having companies contract and shut down.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

These days half the people come to Canada as non-workers under various family reunification and refugee programs http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-immigration-levels-plan-2016-1.3479764

That's a problem and a net cost to the taxpayer for years to come.

Add to that that Canada is importing huge problems from some of the not-so-nice places and the logic of it becomes 100% nuts other than to bring in more Liberal voters for years to come.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

> Does anyone here know a teenager who got a summer job without the use of nepotism? Anyone?


My older son worked in Kumon for $11/h teaching math to kids. Just came in and asked and got the job. Now he is at university studying accounting and working for an accounting firm as part of his Co-op program. Not sure co-op classifies as "nepotism".

My younger boy worked at an arena helping to run hockey programs for $14/h. He used to take lessons in the same arena, so they knew him. Guess it's nepotism. He also set up a website with a friend and looked after peoples' back yards when they were away. Most of his money he earned trading goods via websites; I tried to restrict this activity a bit. Now he is at university, he is planning internship and I have zero doubt that he'll get it. 

Then again, my boys are immigrants, so they are just taking jobs away from Tom. Sweet


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I got my best summer job through nepotism. CN Rail. Preference given to children of employees who were in school. Four great summers, one good full time year. Union rates, a fair amount of overtime, and good work. Had a second job at Bay Young and Bloor. No nepotism. Just walked in to the new store and was hired in men's wear. Part time during university and I would double it up with the CN job in the summer. My parents never had to pay a dime for my education. Married while in university and we still had money to travel. 

The Bay was such a great employer for students. We shopped at Morgans when I lived in Montreal. We have shopped at the Bay every since.

There is opportunity for everyone in Canada. Don't make the mistake of blaming immigration and immigrants for the effects of our changing economy. We have not prepared ourselves well for this new economy. Too many people are getting left behind. We need to work harder, get more post secondary and graduate training, and think out of the box.


----------

