# COIP - 2007 Tax Shelter Obligations



## Gixxer

Hi. 

I participated in a tax shelter program through Canadian Organization for International Philanthropy (COIP) in 2007. Long story short: I received a generous return from CRA for that year. I was then audited and it was deemed that the tax shelter program was not lawful and ordered to repay the money I received from CRA plus interest. I repaid the money to the CRA and subsequently filed an appeal, which was coordinated by COIP. 

In the couple years I was waiting to hear back on the appeal (I was advised it would take a while) I received a letter from a company called SunRX, stating that in order to fulfill the obligations of my program, I now have to repay the loan, either by a money payment or by supplying pharmaceuticals (medication) of equal value. This was quite a shock to me since it has been almost 6 years and I was convinced that my obligations were fulfilled for quite some time. So now this company wants me to pay around $1,000 including interest. I am very leery of this attempt to extract more money from me since COIP's charitable organization status has been revoked by the CRA, and I read an article in the newspaper some years ago basically stating that COIP's tax shelter was a sham.

This tax shelter cost me upfront around $2,400, then I paid about $700 in interest to the CRA when I was asked to repay the return I received. And now a company claiming to be representing my interest and to fulfill my program obligation, wants me to pay another $1,000. They have notified me in the last correspondence that if I don't settle the account by March 1, 2014, that they will forward this case to a collection agency. 

I feel as if this tax shelter program was a hoax, I have no evidence (other than shiny, well pamphlets and brochures stating pharmaceutical aid was being sent to Africa) of the validity of this program and it doing what it claimed to be doing, that is helping people with HIV/AIDS in Africa. Now this company wants more money, and people like me, reluctant to pay MORE money to (what could be a fraud - since it seems to be) are afraid of the threat of a collection agency coming after us, and tarnishing our credit rating etc...

If anybody has any advice or experience with this I would be interested in hearing it. Thanks in advance.

Krystian


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## Guban

I haven't had any experiences with COIP or any other tax shelter, but do have some thoughts.

Did you actually contribute the money, in cash, that you claimed as a tax credit? It seems that CRA rightly has a concern with tax shelters in that people were donating, say $1,000, and the company would issue a receipt for $10,000. The fact that you paid $2,400 to the shelter should have generated a credit of $960 for which CRA is asking for interest of $700 implies you actually claimed more than $2,400 on your tax return.

The new demands to extract money from you now seem odd. Did you actually sign a contract with them for services or to acquire a loan? If you did, you may have to pay up. If not, why just politely decline to pay?


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## wendi1

http://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2010/05/11/charity_closed_after_bad_books_revealed.html

You got yourself involved with some bad, bad boys here. Sounds to me like a fishing expedition - are you gullible enough to pay twice?

This might disappear if you ask for proof that you owe the money. Or ask your lawyer to write to them asking for proof that you owe money.


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## Zeeshanbmerchant

You were not the only one. A lot of people did fall for this scam or similar ones. Its unfortunate but true

It was right for the government to stop this sort of abuse. There are similar schemes still popping up, and when the CRA shuts them down, they will also pay dearly. A husband of one of my coworkers years ago was involved with a similar scheme. I remember when CRA came to their door, they ended up having to take out a mortgage to pay CRA back.

This year they will plan to take things even further. Anyone who plans to get involved with any similar organization, be prepared to hand over the "Savings" that were generated along with nice interest and penalties. Not to mention ruin your relationship with CRA forever.

However i think your particular situation now has to do with the charity attempting to extort further funds out of you. Do you have an initial contract with them? If so that contract will mention your obligation to them. If this money is not mentioned don't pay them, 

They wont do anything to your credit


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## Zeeshanbmerchant

Also of note is the new rule, I wish someone can list the specifics, but when disputing or appealing with CRA, you will be required to put up half of the amount with CRA. 

I will look it up later and edit the post. This will stop individuals from taking advantage of the time value of money.


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## Gixxer

Guban,

To answer your question: you're absolutely right, the money I paid up front was for the interest on a loan that COIP "lent" in the amount of $12,000, to purchase the medicine units. The loan was then sold or transferred to another company which offered a lower interest. I must add that this was all part of the tax shelter program, all the arrangements were made, the paperwork was prepared by COIP, even for the responses to the CRA, including the application for reassessment. 

I do have a contract signed, back from 2007 and it does state that at some point I will need to repay the loan, either by making a payment or with medication of equal value (i.e. $12,000). 

I do remember from the seminar/presentation (sales pitch) on this tax shelter program, the money I paid up front was supposed to cover the interest, administration costs, as well as the purchase of medication to repay the original loan. This purchase to repay the original loan was supposed to be coordinated and arranged within the program.

5 years has gone by and I thought everything was taken care of and finalized, especially taking into consideration that COIP's charitable organization status was pulled by the CRA, after investigations revealed they were a fraud. 

This boondoggle appears to have been an attempt at defrauding people who, like me, wanted to benefit on income taxes as well as help people in need of medication to control their ailments. If COIP orchestrated this scheme and there is no sign of medication being donated to Africa, should people who took part in the tax shelter be responsible to YET again fork over money to, supposedly, "repay" a loan with "medication".

When I called Integrated RM Inc., a company that's handling the unpaid account (from SunRX), they don't know anything about the details of the program (i.e. circumstances around the medication etc...) and recommended I contact COIP directly.

I contacted the financial adviser's office, through which I did this tax shelter, to book an appointment to see him next Monday. The previous meeting he was recommending I pay the outstanding amount to fulfill the obligations of my contract. I plan on taking the article from Toronto Star over with me indicating COIP is a fraud and see what he recommends I do moving forward.

I appreciate your and everyone's input on this! Thanks for your time and thoughts.


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## Gixxer

Zeeshanbmerchant said:


> However i think your particular situation now has to do with the charity attempting to extort further funds out of you. Do you have an initial contract with them? If so that contract will mention your obligation to them. If this money is not mentioned don't pay them,
> 
> They wont do anything to your credit


I do have a contract with them, and unfortunately it doesn't state that the money I paid up front will be used as interest for the initial loan, and enough to purchase medications to repay the loan...however that is something I remember very vividly about the tax shelter program. This was meant to be a one payment type program. The money people paid is supposed to cover everything needed. And now they are coming back for more....even more so after CRA has disallowed the donation and in their view the program is unlawful.

Like I said, unfortunately I haven't found this anywhere in writing what the money I paid will be used for. Very cunning of them I must say.


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## Zeeshanbmerchant

well here is how i see it

They have sold your loan, for a discount to this collector, who is now going to attempt to claim it. 

Obviously the entire program is a sham, good charities don't operate in the manner, but it wont help your case. The person collecting only know that you owe them money, since you were sold of to them. 

Your answer is a simple one, was the obligation to them in the contract fulfilled. Did they deliver the medication, however your understanding of the obligation, and the consideration, and what is actually written in the contract are two very different things

First question i have upfront is why are they only asking for a $1000. Why not $12000. Seems to me if the obligation is fulfilled and if $12000 is the consideration in the contract than they should ask for the full amount. Unless of course a $1000 maybe the type of threshold for people to pay to make this problem go away

Furthermore you also have another point. If the party you signed the contract with, is considered to be willfully negligent in carrying out fraudelant affairs, is the contract legally binding, 

But first i want to know why $1000. Why not more


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## richard

Talking to a lawyer could be extremely valuable. Even if they can't find something that invalidates this they may be able to make it too expensive to keep chasing you down.


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## Gixxer

SunRx in their letter "Statement of Account Payable" summerizes my account as owing 1,044 Medicine Units - valued at $12,000
Interest Currently Due - $353.39

They offer 2 Options for repay the account:
Option 1: To settle your debt with pharmaceuticals - $756 + $353.39 (interest) = $1,109.39

Option 2: To settle your debt with a CASH payment - $612 + $353.39 = $965.39

The reason it's around $1,000 and not $12,000 is because they claimed they have found suppliers outside of Canada that can sell the same medication (valued at $12,000) for a discounted price. Which is why this tax shelter seemed legitimate and enticing in the first place.

The option to settle the account with a cash payment is slightly lower than settling it with pharmaceuticals, and it seems to me that people, just to make this go away, will opt to pay the lower amount (pay in cash) which in turn is beneficial to the collector. I wonder if people chose option 1 and repaid with pharmaceuticals, if the collection company would actually attempt to purchase the medication. This seems so far fetched and convoluted that I sincerely doubt it. 

There is now 4 companies involved in this kerfuffle: COIP (original company), PanAggregate Financial Corp., SunRx, and Integrated RM Inc. that is acting on behalf of SunRx to discuss the overdue account.

I'm surprised there isn't more to be found on the Internet, people in the same situation, because I know there is people out there that must be furious and feel duped.


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## Gixxer

What type of a lawyer would specialize in this sort of work, a tax lawyer I guess right?

Honestly I've been trying to deal with this without getting a lawyer involved because I know that might be expensive. And even might reach the same amount as they want from me to repay the account. And then what is the benefit of doing that? However that might be my next step if I don't get any advice from the financial adviser that I'm going to see on Monday. Because, unfortunately this will not go away on it's own.


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## richard

Gixxer said:


> The reason it's around $1,000 and not $12,000 is because they claimed they have found suppliers outside of Canada that can sell the same medication (valued at $12,000) for a discounted price. Which is why this tax shelter seemed legitimate and enticing in the first place.


Would you offer your employer a 90% pay cut because you moved to a cheaper residence? I can't see anyone doing this if they have a real claim. If they're giving up this much as their first move they can give up more and they're just hoping you don't try.

A tax lawyer might help but this seems like a more general issue with the contract. Usually it won't cost you anything to meet with them and review the issue. You could go to a firm and ask them who would be the best lawyer to talk to. If all it takes is them writing a letter for you that won't cost too much either.


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## Spudd

I feel like your FA should pay this $1000 since he was the one who told you to invest in this fraudulent scheme. I don't know much about the law, but maybe you could get a free consultation with a lawyer before you meet with the FA, so you have some information when you meet with him.


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## wendi1

What Spudd said. 

What kind of FA sets you up with a tax scam? A stupid one, or a crooked one.

Find out how much of his/her own money the FA put with these jokers. Or how much he/she got in kickbacks for introducing you.

No way will these scammers go away if you give them $1000. You will get on a "biggest suckers EVER" list and Russian mafia and Nigerian Princes will swamp your email account.


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## bwater

Hi Gixxer,

Thank you for standing out to tell everyone about your experience with COIP tax shelter scam. I also bought COIP back in 2007 or 2008. Darren Weeks who is the real estate investor from AB (http://www.fasttracktocashflow.com/about-us/darren-weeks/) sold us into this (of course, a free dinner). He got a big chunk of commission.

Upon CRA audit, I paid back what I owned from CRA a couple of years ago. I thought that was the end of my nightmare until I received letters from PanAggregate Financial Corp., last year and SunRx just recently asking for more payment and threaten to send our case to a collection company. It is absolutely a robbery. Is there any organization that we can go to to protect us from being robbed again??? 




Gixxer said:


> SunRx in their letter "Statement of Account Payable" summerizes my account as owing 1,044 Medicine Units - valued at $12,000
> Interest Currently Due - $353.39
> 
> They offer 2 Options for repay the account:
> Option 1: To settle your debt with pharmaceuticals - $756 + $353.39 (interest) = $1,109.39
> 
> Option 2: To settle your debt with a CASH payment - $612 + $353.39 = $965.39
> 
> The reason it's around $1,000 and not $12,000 is because they claimed they have found suppliers outside of Canada that can sell the same medication (valued at $12,000) for a discounted price. Which is why this tax shelter seemed legitimate and enticing in the first place.
> 
> The option to settle the account with a cash payment is slightly lower than settling it with pharmaceuticals, and it seems to me that people, just to make this go away, will opt to pay the lower amount (pay in cash) which in turn is beneficial to the collector. I wonder if people chose option 1 and repaid with pharmaceuticals, if the collection company would actually attempt to purchase the medication. This seems so far fetched and convoluted that I sincerely doubt it.
> 
> There is now 4 companies involved in this kerfuffle: COIP (original company), PanAggregate Financial Corp., SunRx, and Integrated RM Inc. that is acting on behalf of SunRx to discuss the overdue account.
> 
> I'm surprised there isn't more to be found on the Internet, people in the same situation, because I know there is people out there that must be furious and feel duped.


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## bwater

Hi Gixxer,

I searched online and found Kevin Donovan who is the investigative reporter at the Star. He wrote several reports about COIP tax shelter scheme during the past several years. I just called him and talked to him about my case. He said several hundred people called him about COIP tax shelter scheme. He asked me to email my material to him. You can get his contact info from any of the articles below. I hope he can help us on this.

http://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2007/09/29/14b_tax_scams_nail_donors.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2010/05/11/charity_closed_after_bad_books_revealed.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/05/14/charity_tax_shelter_promoters_face_criminal_probe.html



Gixxer said:


> What type of a lawyer would specialize in this sort of work, a tax lawyer I guess right?
> 
> Honestly I've been trying to deal with this without getting a lawyer involved because I know that might be expensive. And even might reach the same amount as they want from me to repay the account. And then what is the benefit of doing that? However that might be my next step if I don't get any advice from the financial adviser that I'm going to see on Monday. Because, unfortunately this will not go away on it's own.


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## Gixxer

Thanks bwater for the words of recognition. Like I mentioned, I am shocked that more isn't online about people loosing their cool about this SCAM! I don't think I'd ever get involved with another tax shelter. I guess like the adage goes, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is! I will contact Kevin Donovan and see if I can get some direction from him. I'm sure if we combine our voices, we can accomplish something regarding this sham.

These FA definitely must get some kickbacks from bringing their clients to these seminars, and probably more if they sign on with whatever scheme is going. I posed a question to my adviser one time, and he personally signed on for the tax shelter (for a MUCH larger amount than I did). He showed me a photocopy of his letter from SunRx with how much money they are asking him to pay back and it was over $10,000. The skeptic in me automatically thought that it's a fake letter that the tax shelter organizers issued to him, in anticipation of their clients coming to knock on his doors demanding answers...but obviously I do not have any proof of that, and I'll never know.


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## Zeeshanbmerchant

Its clear that you guys all need to get together and go after them. I love how a forum like this can help

My only question would be though did the coup fulfill its obligation in the contract


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## Gixxer

Spudd said:


> I feel like your FA should pay this $1000 since he was the one who told you to invest in this fraudulent scheme. I don't know much about the law, but maybe you could get a free consultation with a lawyer before you meet with the FA, so you have some information when you meet with him.



hahaha good one! I do feel like he should for getting his "clients" involved in this fraud!
Unfortunately the contract exists to protect his behind, and as sweet sweet as that'd be, I doubt it'd ever happen 
I will suggest it to him on Monday though.


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## Gixxer

Zeeshanbmerchant said:


> Its clear that you guys all need to get together and go after them. I love how a forum like this can help
> 
> My only question would be though did the coup fulfill its obligation in the contract



I am afraid that a regular joe like myself isn't savvy enough to dissect the contract and track down whether COIP actually purchased the medicine units and sent them to sub-Saharan Africa as it claims in the contract. A well orchestrated scheme might have the paperwork drafted to make it seem like this all took place, but whether it actually physically happened is another story. And maybe that's what would make the original contract null and void because of their willful fraudulent activity?


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## bwater

HI Gixxer,

Call Kevin Donovan at 416 869 4425 or 416 312 3503 and email your story to him ([email protected]). He did a whole investigation on COIP scam as early as 2007. He pretty much knows about it.

I am sure he can give us some advice. You just need to let him know your story.



Gixxer said:


> I am afraid that a regular joe like myself isn't savvy enough to dissect the contract and track down whether COIP actually purchased the medicine units and sent them to sub-Saharan Africa as it claims in the contract. A well orchestrated scheme might have the paperwork drafted to make it seem like this all took place, but whether it actually physically happened is another story. And maybe that's what would make the original contract null and void because of their willful fraudulent activity?


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## bwater

Gixxer, 

They got a huge commission for signing up one person. They had forms to inviting people joining their referring program.



Gixxer said:


> Thanks bwater for the words of recognition. Like I mentioned, I am shocked that more isn't online about people loosing their cool about this SCAM! I don't think I'd ever get involved with another tax shelter. I guess like the adage goes, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is! I will contact Kevin Donovan and see if I can get some direction from him. I'm sure if we combine our voices, we can accomplish something regarding this sham.
> 
> These FA definitely must get some kickbacks from bringing their clients to these seminars, and probably more if they sign on with whatever scheme is going. I posed a question to my adviser one time, and he personally signed on for the tax shelter (for a MUCH larger amount than I did). He showed me a photocopy of his letter from SunRx with how much money they are asking him to pay back and it was over $10,000. The skeptic in me automatically thought that it's a fake letter that the tax shelter organizers issued to him, in anticipation of their clients coming to knock on his doors demanding answers...but obviously I do not have any proof of that, and I'll never know.


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## bwater

If the whole COIP tax shelter program is a scam / scheme / illegal and it is under CRA investigation, then they should not continue to operate. Those contracts should not carry any legal effect. Right?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/05/14/charity_tax_shelter_promoters_face_criminal_probe.html


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## Gixxer

bwater said:


> HI Gixxer,
> 
> Call Kevin Donovan at 416 869 4425 or 416 312 3503 and email your story to him ([email protected]). He did a whole investigation on COIP scam as early as 2007. He pretty much knows about it.
> 
> I am sure he can give us some advice. You just need to let him know your story.


Thanks for the contact info. I plan on giving him a call tomorrow morning and see where it goes. Might I ask what direction he gave you, as in how to proceed with this boondoggle?

And I agree with you 100%. If the CRA is auditing everyone involved with a tax shelter, if, according to the Toronto Star article have spent billions of Canadian's tax dollars on fraudulent income tax donation claims and refunds, it doesn't take a PhD in economics or law to figure out that someone is being duped and these organizations are preying on Canadians, hiding behind fancy presentations/seminars, letterheads and lawyers' professional opinions. Not only is it ethically wrong, it is outright criminal!!! All the aspects of criminal wrongdoing are present, it just takes some guts on the CRA's behalf to protect the people it collects money from.


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## bwater

Gixxer,

You are right on! Kevin Donovan asked me to forward earlier PenAggregate emails and the recent email from SunRx to him. Kevin is a seasoned respected investigating reporter. I trust that he will us some advices. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2013/05/16/meet_the_iteam_kevin_donovan.html



Gixxer said:


> Thanks for the contact info. I plan on giving him a call tomorrow morning and see where it goes. Might I ask what direction he gave you, as in how to proceed with this boondoggle?
> 
> And I agree with you 100%. If the CRA is auditing everyone involved with a tax shelter, if, according to the Toronto Star article have spent billions of Canadian's tax dollars on fraudulent income tax donation claims and refunds, it doesn't take a PhD in economics or law to figure out that someone is being duped and these organizations are preying on Canadians, hiding behind fancy presentations/seminars, letterheads and lawyers' professional opinions. Not only is it ethically wrong, it is outright criminal!!! All the aspects of criminal wrongdoing are present, it just takes some guts on the CRA's behalf to protect the people it collects money from.


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## dawne

If all they're asking for is $1000, why not let them take you to small claims court if they're serious? It'll be a lot of trouble/cost for them to do that, and wouldn't cost you much. You can also get 30 min. free legal advice. (by phoning your gov't toll free number and they'll give you the main number to call.)
All the best with that...sounds like a nasty thorn.


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## Gixxer

Yea, but won't that be a black eye on my credit rating/report? I'd hate to have this effect me negatively down the road. 
I don't know what kind of powers collection agencies have, which is what they are threatening to do?


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## bwater

Hi Gixxer, 

You can find more latest information from the comment area in this article - http://www.canadiancapitalist.com/beware-of-tax-shelter-donation-arrangements/



Gixxer said:


> Yea, but won't that be a black eye on my credit rating/report? I'd hate to have this effect me negatively down the road.
> I don't know what kind of powers collection agencies have, which is what they are threatening to do?


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## wendi1

Slogged through the canadiancapitalist.com article and comments. Man, I thought this forum was wordy....

It also shows the hazards of letting people use multiple names for the same login... the scammers themselves were commenting, and pretending to be a whole posse of unrelated posters... 

I wouldn't give these guys the steam off my p.


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## jcjordo

I was a donor in the program plus 4 additional years beyond. This has become a giant pile to have stepped in! There is only one way to salvage yourself here. You must satisfy the terms of your loans through full recourse compliance. This means that equivilant meds or cash must be repayed to satisfy the loan. The CRA will NOT accept partial payment loans. these companies are offering to return your promisary note in good standing for a small additional payment. This is NOT full recourse! The CRA may even use unpaid loan amounts as taxable income! Most Tax lawyers wont be able to help you here because we have stumbled into the niche area of corporate tax systems where the only way to be represented by someone who knows the game will come at a $250K retainer...too steep for average joe like me.
I recommend that you look into a company called profitable giving Canada. They are mostly former salesmen and participants in the programs who have come together with the help or Dorris Law in Toronto to pursue the legal end of this with the CRA as a group. This will cost you more money, however, they guarantee full recourse payment (meds are actually being purchased, delivered and accepted). The law firm then takes all of your documents and puts a cease and desist order on SUn RX and related collectors. The last piece is to fight the CRA in appeals court. This is totally unpredictable in time frame and cost but for a minimal upfront cost, you get legal representation for 5 years...the downside is that CRA can appeal to eternity until there is no legal fund left.


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## johnsimon666

*How can we protect ourselves from CRA?*

Hi, I am one of those donated to COIP from 2007 to 2009 and currently in appeal with a big amount of money owed to CRA. Should we organize as a group in order to be more successful in defending ourselves? Maybe organize a meeting with a MP or MPP? I don't think we did anything wrong - at the time of our donation COIP and ORION were officially registered charities with CRA. They revoked their status in 2010. So why we should be at fault if CRA respected our tax receipts and paid the refund at the time when those organizations were registered?
Any thoughts?


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## fraser

Sorry to be so harsh but CRA did not fail to 'respect' your tax receipts. You self reported. The charity was an obvious scam and their charitable lic. was revoked...as it should have been. Anyone can set up a charity and get a tax number and become a registered charity. It is only after operation and inspection of their books that CRA would find that they were a scam.

Think about this for a moment. Would a reasonable person believe that they could pay $2400 and obtain a legitimate charitable tax receipt for 10 or 12K, or more that would yield 5 or 6K in tax savings assuming they were inside the top bracket? Makes no sense whatsoever. 

I had this exact discussion with a colleague who tried to tell me what a great deal it was. It sounded to good to be true because it was too good to be true. He ended up with the same problem as you only he did it for two years. He was re-assessed and lost his original so called charitable donations.

My guess is that the company that sold you this is long gone, defunct. If your financial advisor was recommending this product at the time, and you still have the same financial advisor, I would highly recommend that you find yourself a new advisor. That one clearly puts his commission ahead of your financial well being.

Google COIP tax scam and you will see the Toronto Star Reports.


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## brudneski

*Do we need to Repay the loans?*

I was unfortunately one of the suckers that got conned into participating in COIP. Lessoned learned and I have repaid my amounts owing to the CRA.

My question is if we actually need to repay the bogus loans attached to these schemes and react to the threats of SUN RX and IRM collections? I know people representing and receiving commissions from Justice Pharma and Profitable Giving Canada are scaring people into believing that there is in fact a real threat of recourse, but I have not been able to find another independent view on this. All the law firms that I have asked do not have experience with these types of schemes and therefore do not have any real advice.

Some reasons I am struggling with believing I actually have to repay the loans:

1) I do not believe the CRA will ever change their stance and our donations will always be rejected. Therefore I am not worried about fulfilling my loans to appease the CRA. The CRA could care less if I have that loan is ever settled.
2) A board member on Justice Pharma has be fined in Ontario for working with scam artists and in banned from giving financial advice in Ontario. Hard to trust someone like that. ww.advisor.ca/news/industry-news/ontario-man-fined-for-helping-scam-investors-89514
3) The collections agencies that have approached me give me phone numbers for lines that do not get answered and websites that no longer work. When I researched the phone numbers attached to IRM collections in leads me to Speedy Collections Agency out of Scarborough Ontario and that company is out of business
4) Shy Kurtz is being presented as a Lawyer that worked to create the COIP structure and also now as one of the people promoting Justice Pharma and way to settle the loans and become compliant. However after looking on this website ww.canadianlawlist.com I cannot find any proof that he is actually a practicing lawyer?
5) COIP/MLF/PGI can no longer be contacted. Their websites no longer work, their phone lines are deactivated and no one can be reached.

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANHYONE ELSE HAVE ADVICE ON THIS?


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Brudneski, Your rationale makes sense to me.
I'm afraid I can't offer a 'knowledgeable' reply, but I have spent a few hours reading this thread, the Star articles, related websites like JusticePharma.org, and looking up SunRx, Integrated RM, kara lee burke, shy kurtz, etc.
These requests look like further scammers at work, purporting to legitimize your CRA claim if you pay up. Not going to happen.

I can tell you that if it were my money, I would definitely comply with the CRA (as it sounds like you have), and I would definitely ignore all requests for more money from any purported collection agency, regardless of their threats, letters, or phone calls. That means I would not answer or return calls or messages. I would document them, keep anything they send, note call times and keep any messages they leave, but have no communication with them. 

It is too bad that some of the earlier posters (Gixxer and Bwater) never posted followup comments on this thread. I'm sure they have better insight.


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## AMA

*weasel words*



johnsimon666 said:


> Hi, I am one of those donated to COIP from 2007 to 2009 and currently in appeal with a big amount of money owed to CRA. Should we organize as a group in order to be more successful in defending ourselves? Maybe organize a meeting with a MP or MPP? I don't think we did anything wrong - at the time of our donation COIP and ORION were officially registered charities with CRA. They revoked their status in 2010. So why we should be at fault if CRA respected our tax receipts and paid the refund at the time when those organizations were registered?
> Any thoughts?


I am in the same boat as you. I participated in 2007 and 2008. I also owe CRA quite a bit. The person who introduced me to COIP has disappeared and I'm left all alone and have no clue what to do than than wait. The last time i spoke to someone in Calgary (Fastrack) was in Oct 2016. They told me to stay clear of Justice Trading and its affiliates. They use a lot of scare tactics so you spend more $$$. when I started doing my research, i realized that 2 guys from COIP office are affiliated with them..surprise surprise. So basically right now I am waiting for some kind of settlement offer from CRA. Reading for other tax shelters the settlements that people were accepting were no penalties, no interest and CRA was accepting their actually cash donated. 
I am hoping we get the opportunity to get the same or similar settlement. 
I do however believe that COIP was legit in the years I donated. At the time of donation, I did however call CRA to see if it was legit before i invested. They had no warning.. All this makes no sense to me! Totally upsetting.


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## carverman

wendi1 said:


> What Spudd said.
> 
> What kind of FA sets you up with a tax scam? A stupid one, or a crooked one.
> 
> Find out how much of his/her own money the FA put with these jokers. Or how much he/she got in kickbacks for introducing you.
> 
> No way will these scammers go away if you give them $1000. *You will get on a "biggest suckers EVER" list and Russian mafia and Nigerian Princes will swamp your email account*.


I read the posts shaking my head. Scammers scamming those that scammed the CRA...now their chickens have come home to roost.
I guess the old saying seems to apply each time you deal with phony charities..."if it seems too good to be true...it usually is!"


----------



## AMA

*help*



johnsimon666 said:


> Hi, I am one of those donated to COIP from 2007 to 2009 and currently in appeal with a big amount of money owed to CRA. Should we organize as a group in order to be more successful in defending ourselves? Maybe organize a meeting with a MP or MPP? I don't think we did anything wrong - at the time of our donation COIP and ORION were officially registered charities with CRA. They revoked their status in 2010. So why we should be at fault if CRA respected our tax receipts and paid the refund at the time when those organizations were registered?
> Any thoughts?


Please e me at email]4friends1972 at libero.it


----------



## sags

Ignoring the fact the loans are bogus and the tax scheme was a fraud, the debt is beyond the 2 year period to obtain a judgement from the courts and beyond the 6 year reporting period for credit reports.

I would tell the collection agencies to just go ahead and sue me.

The CRA can collect because they have special legislated powers of collection with no time limits when they consider it tax evasion.


----------



## dollarz

I participated in COIP program 2007, 2008, 2009. Received today a long letter from Chief of Appeals at the CRA (Letter dated January 26, 2017).
In a nutshell CRA is offering interest relief if I 'waive any right of objection'. I had filed Notice(s) of Objection for participation in the program.
Will be attempting to track down some of the folks involved with the original COIP program tomorrow and determine recommendation.
Came across this on the web: RPGC[dot]ca[backslash]The_Whole_Story[dot]php
It is a good read on the topic...though not specific to the letter I just received.


----------



## AMA

dollarz said:


> I participated in COIP program 2007, 2008, 2009. Received today a long letter from Chief of Appeals at the CRA (Letter dated January 26, 2017).
> In a nutshell CRA is offering interest relief if I 'waive any right of objection'. I had filed Notice(s) of Objection for participation in the program.
> Will be attempting to track down some of the folks involved with the original COIP program tomorrow and determine recommendation.
> Came across this on the web: RPGC[dot]ca[backslash]The_Whole_Story[dot]php
> It is a good read on the topic...though not specific to the letter I just received.



Thank you dollars. I got the same thing. I am not signing anything. The person who sold me this program is with PGC and Justice trading and is telling me to buy the drugs to reimburse my loan BUT nothing is guaranteed.I personally don't see throwing more money will help with CRA! I contacted a tax lawyer and waiting for him to get back to me. I would like to get a bunch of people to reduce our legals fees as I do not think we can do this alone. you can email me at 4friends1972 at libero.it


----------



## dollarz

Thank you AMA. I have had no success contacting anyone COIP related. I will follow you lead and not sign anything from the CRA. Would be interesting to hear if anyone else has received this latest CRA letter...and if any COIP participants are currently in contact with the sales team from COIP for recommendations?


----------



## 9thstrokes

Received the same letter too!

Do anyone have further updates to this?


----------



## Casio

Yes I got the same letter too, and I expect that all COIP donors will be getting this same letter. What are people's thoughts on the CRA offer? I'm debating whether to accept it or not. On one hand, I feel that it's a very poor and unfair offer, but on the other hand, after 10+ years I just want this whole thing to be over with and move on with my life.... Any advice would be appreciated. 

P.S.: AMA I sent you an e-mail, please check your inbox


----------



## carverman

Casio said:


> Yes I got the same letter too, and I expect that all COIP donors will be getting this same letter. What are people's thoughts on the CRA offer? I'm debating whether to accept it or not. On one hand, I feel that it's a very poor and unfair offer, but on the other hand, after 10+ years I just want this whole thing to be over with and move on with my life.... *Any advice would be appreciated.
> *


 Pay up, you got scammed and in turn you scammed your government. Now it's time to pay the piper. 

Just suck it up and pay them what they decide to settle with you. 
You'll sleep better at night and this phony charity mess will be history. 

If it's too good to be true, it usually is.


----------



## Xactly

*Add another to the list*



Casio said:


> Yes I got the same letter too, and I expect that all COIP donors will be getting this same letter. What are people's thoughts on the CRA offer? I'm debating whether to accept it or not. On one hand, I feel that it's a very poor and unfair offer, but on the other hand, after 10+ years I just want this whole thing to be over with and move on with my life.... Any advice would be appreciated.


I will join this thread as I received a letter from CRA yesterday as well. I had always accepted the fact that this could come full circle so I put most of it in other things just in case. But I will do a little digging myself and post here as well as I find anything out.

carverman... I think most people here understand their plight, but thank you for your insight.


----------



## Casio

First off, thank you Caverman for your input. However, please understand, a lot of people participated in this program based on the advice of a friend, colleague, accountant, lawyer etc. Speaking only for myself, I donated to COIP when I was very young, fresh out of university and had zero financial sense, upon the advice of someone who I considered a good friend but am no longer friends with. My intention was certainly not to "scam the government" as the way it had been explained to me was that there was a legitimate donation being made. Again, I had zero financial sense at the time (this was over 10 years ago), and I was young and naive (that sounds like an excuse, but it is the truth). 

What I'm saying is that I think most of us would prefer objective advice/input from people who have had the misfortune of participating in the COIP program. Honestly I think most of us would be more than happy to meet our financial obligations if CRA provided a fair offer. However, if CRA asks you for an arm or leg, would you cut if off and give it to them? I understand that they want to make an example of us and discourage other people from participating in these types of programs, but I do feel that they are painting everyone with the same brush so to speak. They really should go after the promoters and organizers of these programs but instead they force regular people into bankruptcy over mistakes made more than a decade ago. 

Anyway I don't want to turn this into a moral issue - I'm sure according to people on the outside looking in, those of us who participated in these programs are fools and scum of the earth. That's fine and we accept your ridicule and judgement. *Now moving on, what do those people who have participated in COIP think about CRA's offer and what are they planning to do?* That's what I'm interested in getting feedback on and thank you in advance for your input!


----------



## Rowdyspoon

*coip scam 2008 NOO*



Xactly said:


> I will join this thread as I received a letter from CRA yesterday as well. I had always accepted the fact that this could come full circle so I put most of it in other things just in case. But I will do a little digging myself and post here as well as I find anything out.
> 
> carverman... I think most people here understand their plight, but thank you for your insight.



I got my letter as well, so add me to the list. I wonder if I can argue the assessed amount as I did pay all the loans and meet my obligations to the SunRx. I wish I had been of sound mind back then. 
I can't post the link as my post count is not high enough but there is an article that may be pertinent. 

it's drache.ca article new hope-for-taxpayers to find it.


----------



## sags

The CRA doesn't have the mandate or authority to negotiate the amount of taxes due.

They do have some discretion on the amount of interest and penalties charged, and it appears they are making an offer.

Their next offer may not be so generous. They can and will freeze bank accounts and seize property.

If a person absolutely cannot repay the tax refund they initially received, they should seriously consider discussing their situation with a bankruptcy trustee to protect themselves as best they can.

If a person filed a notice of objection, they could take the CRA to the tax court, but the plaintiff must prove the CRA was wrong in it's application of tax law.

I would see no chance of the tax court supporting the plaintiff in these types of cases.


----------



## bradycat

*COIP Tax Shelter*

Hello,

I just received my letter in the mail, covering my donations back in 2007-2008-2009. It is saying the same exact thing I am reading, that they are rejecting my donations for those years.

COIP is no longer around, but I do have one of the phone numbers for a Steve Arnold, who is part of this scam, and is still wtih PFC, the pan aggregate company.

If anyone has won against the appeals, why hasn't anyone responded to the forum or somewhere online. I have done searches and found nothing. I even posted in kijiji, to see if someone would reply and nothing.

What have you heard on the situation so far?? Seems people are just getting those notices now this year. It says in the letter, if you don't accept what they are offering, this will go to court, and then it will cost ME MORE, and if I still lose, it's going to be more painful on paying that off also.

Is anyone negotiating with CRA to see if they can take a lesser amount to what you owe? Mine is around $12,000 I believe.

Any comments would be great, Thanks.:culpability:


----------



## goStamps

here is some good info ptofitablegiving.ca

There are appeals being filed By Mcarthy Tetreault on behalf of the Profitable Giving Class Defence. This would also encompass the COIP program


----------



## LpstkDani

*... ditto, scammed by COIP, letter received from CRA, etc etc etc (long post, sorry)*

First off, I'll apologize now if this is too wordy and too much detail... 

Second... I have to point out it didn't seem "too good to be true" to me at the time... having just moved to the "big city" for work, going through divorce/custody (huge costs of the legal fees for that)... as well as other business costs (separating myself from the company my ex & I had started, which he planned to have "the nanny" continue to run without me.) My new financial advisor was an professional accountant, highly recommended by friends and when she steered me from my usual RRSP contributions in order to diversify through COIP, I didn't question it. I was actually made to feel somewhat embarrassed that my portfolio had not previously included charitable contributions before then, by those at the first presentation... further, I had diversified with my previous financial advisor and similar arguments were made. 
I am not at all knowledgeable about finance/tax matters, (hence always having had a financial advisor and/or accountant) ... but I did check out COIP online and at the better business bureau, and found no reports or complaints. Everything I googled pointed to a legit charity. I checked that the tax receipt they were offering was legit and that they were in fact registered as a charity in Canada. (Having been a volunteer board member for a non-profit organization that was trying to get charitable status back in the 1990's, and failed, I knew this was no easy task.) I was was friends with several teachers that were also duped here in our city, going to seminars and asking questions of the COIP reps before writing cheques. Those tax returns were not re-invested, nor squandered on travel back in 2007 - 2008, they went straight to debts. In fact the original contributions, on the advise of my accountant were borrowed from a line of credit, which was was also repaid with the income tax returns. 

COIP had long stopped helping with the appeals after CRA had started disallowing previous credits for their receipts and I'm sure many of you can now guess: my accountant/financial advisor was no longer in contact, in fact no longer even living here (moved to Fiji was I heard last.) With the CRA threatening to garnish my wages to the tune of 60%, leaving me without even enough income for rent, I was forced to near bankruptcy, and enlisted the help of a firm to do up a proposal with my creditors. I never paid the additional amounts to SunRx/COIP et al, on whatever "loans" & agreements they were trying to collect on, and since they threatened to send collection agencies we added SunRX/COIP/et.al. to my "proposal" list of creditors in the proposal and as far as I'm aware COIP/SunRx/etc never returned my trustee correspondence to formally collect on any amounts. 

CRA had never offered me "interest relief" as mentioned in their recent letter, and I'm unsure how my proposal affects their letter, as it's obvious they sent out a "form letter" as there was no mention of my proposal or amounts repaid to CRA through that. 
I'm unsure how to proceed with CRA's request for me sign and return the enclosed document with that letter, accepting their findings, especially reading now that with the 2012 Berg v The Queen decision, a class action suit for all of us scammed by COIP might be successful... that may however be the wrong conclusion, so I'm continuing my research, and I will be contacting my trustee for his opinion of CRA's recent letter. 
I'm interested to hear others thoughts of what a class action suit might entail and what risks there might be in not signing/returning CRA's recent letter.


----------



## Casio

Sorry goStamps but "profitable giving" is being run by the same people who had promoted COIP. While they are filing appeals for a court battle, I don't believe they will have any success in court. They're also insisting that whoever wants to join their appeal has to purchase pharmaceuticals to "settle" the debt with COIP. This is a cash grab pure and simple. First off, the CRA has denied the donation amount in full and has stated that there was no valid donation made. So why would they try to force people to "settle" a debt which the CRA is not even acknowledging actually exists? For anyone considering actually joining the PGC (profitable giving Canada) class action, ask them this one question: *"are you profiting from the sale of the pharmaceuticals which I am required to purchase to join the class action?" * As the saying goes, "fool me once shame on you but fool me twice, shame on me". 

At this point, the only thing that I have hope that we can get relief on, is the interest portion of the amount owing. CRA has unfairly delayed a decision on COIP for almost 10 years. In such situations, tax payers are entitled to interest relief and there is a form to apply for interest relief from CRA (you can get it from the CRA website). There's also various companies that will send in the interest relief application on your behalf but they will charge a fee (usually between $1000 - $2000). I'm not sure if I'll use their services as I really don't want to waste any more money on this whole thing, but it could be worth it if they can get some of that interest waived (the interest accumulated for me is around $16000 over 10 years, which is ridiculous). CRA has offered some interest relief in their "settlement letter" sent to donors but it's not much and it's not a very good offer. Nonetheless, I've decided to accept the CRA's settlement but I will also be applying for additional interest relief. I've consulted with some tax professionals and they've confirmed that accepting CRA's settlement does not affect our right to ask for further interest relief, specially in light of the fact that there has been such a long delay. Personally, I don't have any faith in all these other groups such as "PGC" that they are actually acting in our best interest. So for me, I feel like accepting CRA's offer and then applying for further interest relief is the best course of action and the only way to minimize my amount owing. The only thing I care about now is reducing my amount owing to CRA. LpstkDani, I hope that gives you some info. Good luck with this whole thing (and good luck to all the donors who got roped into this scheme).


----------



## goStamps

if u sign the waiver you will never get interest relief


----------



## Casio

goStamps said:


> if u sign the waiver you will never get interest relief


That is simply not true. Don't take anyone's word for it, just talk to an independent tax specialist (they usually give you a free consultation). Provide them the facts, let them know about CRA's settlement offer and ask if that affects your ability to apply for additional interest relief in a case such as this, where CRA has delayed a decision for 10 years. If you look on the CRA's website there is section that details valid reasons for applying for and getting interest relief, and one of those reasons is undue delay by the CRA. At this point, I will take CRA's word over any of these other jokers who're trying to mislead donors into paying them more money for fighting CRA...


----------



## goStamps

Casio.. I used tax solutions canada to repay Parklane financial ts and I owed like 200k... I signed the waiver and my application was denied. Maybe if your dieing of cancer or something but in my case I repayed but my offer included the cash receipt and some interest relief but far from all.. but you dont have to believe me lol


----------



## Casio

goStamps I don't know anything regarding the Parklane scheme so I can't comment on it. However, from the little information that you have provided, it sounds like the COIP offer is very different from what was offered for Parklane by CRA. For COIP the CRA is denying the cash donation in full, meaning that they are saying that there was never any legitimate donation made in the first place. 

So it's not a matter of believing you or not. I don't deal with "maybe's" anymore, I only deal with facts. THE FACT is that CRA has offered some interest relief in their offer, and THE FACT is that accepting the offer does not prejudice your rights to applying for further interest relief (meaning you can ask CRA to waive further interest). And it doesn't cost you anything to apply for interest relief, you can download and fill out the form for free and send it in. Doing a little research on the internet will likely help on how to fill out these CRA forms (I've never filled it out but that's what I plan to do). No one has to use tax solutions Canada or whoever else to do this (like you did). 

Now let's look at the alternative. You mentioned profitable giving Canada who wants to launch a court case against CRA. How much does that cost? Do they offer you a GUARANTEE that they will win or they will reimburse your court costs? I would assume that they don't right? And from what I've heard, they ask that you "buy more pharmaceuticals to settle the debt with COIP", which is essentially a cash grab since CRA has said there was no donation and therefore no debt to COIP. If I'm incorrect, please educate us? You may also want to read up on the GLGI tax shelter court decision, it's very unlikely that any of these tax shelters have any chance of winning in court after the GLGI case. 

So the options are:

1. Take CRA's offer, get your amount reduced at least a little bit, and then send in an interest relief application to hopefully get more interest waived later (which may or may not happen) 
OR
2. Don't take CRA's offer, put your faith in PGC or whoever else that charges you MORE money to buy pharma, go to court and fight CRA, and possibly end up with more money lost in this fiasco since they offer you NO GUARANTEES, and also lose out on CRA's offer of some interest relief

Sorry but I'll take what I can get and take CRA's offer and then send in a free application for interest relief rather than trust these other jokers who are now trying to milk donors for more money to fight CRA. But hey, do what you want, sounds like you're a smart guy since you had 200K owing to a previous scheme (Parklane) and then got involved in another one (COIP). FYI, that was sarcasm btw. I for one, have learned a valuable lesson and will never involve myself in another tax shelter scheme again. All I care about now is paying back CRA in the most cost-effective way possible, end of story, period. And good luck to you.


----------



## Pissedoffmofo

*I need advice.*

Hi everyone, 

Like many of you here, I donated for a few years in my case 2007, 2008, 2009.
Obviously the CRA is rejecting my donation and my amount to pay back is around $18000 minus whatever interest relief if I sign the waiver. 

A few years ago, I foolishly sent money to Sun Rx to "satisfy" the loan amount. Now I find out I still am on the hook with the loan amount or to satisfy the loan. Don't know the exact details as the info is coming from the guy who sold me the donations. 

My question is that if I decided to ignore the money "owed" to the loan, do I have any legal blowback heading my way?


----------



## Pissedoffmofo

Casio said:


> Sorry goStamps but "profitable giving" is being run by the same people who had promoted COIP. While they are filing appeals for a court battle, I don't believe they will have any success in court. They're also insisting that whoever wants to join their appeal has to purchase pharmaceuticals to "settle" the debt with COIP. This is a cash grab pure and simple. First off, the CRA has denied the donation amount in full and has stated that there was no valid donation made. So why would they try to force people to "settle" a debt which the CRA is not even acknowledging actually exists? For anyone considering actually joining the PGC (profitable giving Canada) class action, ask them this one question: *"are you profiting from the sale of the pharmaceuticals which I am required to purchase to join the class action?" * As the saying goes, "fool me once shame on you but fool me twice, shame on me".
> 
> At this point, the only thing that I have hope that we can get relief on, is the interest portion of the amount owing. CRA has unfairly delayed a decision on COIP for almost 10 years. In such situations, tax payers are entitled to interest relief and there is a form to apply for interest relief from CRA (you can get it from the CRA website). There's also various companies that will send in the interest relief application on your behalf but they will charge a fee (usually between $1000 - $2000). I'm not sure if I'll use their services as I really don't want to waste any more money on this whole thing, but it could be worth it if they can get some of that interest waived (the interest accumulated for me is around $16000 over 10 years, which is ridiculous). CRA has offered some interest relief in their "settlement letter" sent to donors but it's not much and it's not a very good offer. Nonetheless, I've decided to accept the CRA's settlement but I will also be applying for additional interest relief. I've consulted with some tax professionals and they've confirmed that accepting CRA's settlement does not affect our right to ask for further interest relief, specially in light of the fact that there has been such a long delay. Personally, I don't have any faith in all these other groups such as "PGC" that they are actually acting in our best interest. So for me, I feel like accepting CRA's offer and then applying for further interest relief is the best course of action and the only way to minimize my amount owing. The only thing I care about now is reducing my amount owing to CRA. LpstkDani, I hope that gives you some info. Good luck with this whole thing (and good luck to all the donors who got roped into this scheme).


My understanding is that "settling the debt obligations" and joining the law suit are separate; we may have to settle the debt irregardless on whether we want to join the suit ...


----------



## sags

Does anyone believe these tax sham companies want to go to court to try to collect a judgement on the debt ?

Collecting from investors to pay legal costs for a lawsuit is step 2 of the "how to easily steal money from people" booklet.

The law firm will be representing the promoters of the tax sham.........not the investors in it.


----------



## sags

People involved in these tax shams, received tax rebates from the government.

The CRA has disallowed the tax deductions and simply want their money back.

Some people get involved in these types of shams to collect the tax refunds, invest the money in the stock markets, and then hope to pay back the original amount with the interest forgiven by the CRA. They make money by having the money for a period of time.

To discourage this practice, the CRA usually wants all the interest paid. They may waive penalties.

If they are making an offer to discount the interest, people should take the opportunity to settle up.

The CRA may withdraw the offer and replace it with a demand letter and start seizing bank accounts and assets.

The CRA is one debtor who doesn't require a court judgement to seize bank accounts and assets, so people won't get a warning.


----------



## Pissedoffmofo

*Debt settlement.*

Has any donors received any letters and documentation to "settle the debt obligations" or are you told orally?


----------



## Pissedoffmofo

*Thanks*



sags said:


> Does anyone believe these tax sham companies want to go to court to try to collect a judgement on the debt ?
> 
> Collecting from investors to pay legal costs for a lawsuit is step 2 of the "how to easily steal money from people" booklet.
> 
> The law firm will be representing the promoters of the tax sham.........not the investors in it.


Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## goStamps

casio Lawyers file for interest relief when they file their appeals..... Look you learned something today lol


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Pissedoff, as sags has indicated, you need to deal with the CRA but you would be 'a fool parted from his money' (twice) to pay anything more to the bandits that first took your 'donation' or any law firm or agency claiming to be able to help absolve you from the CRA.
P.S. gostamps strikes me as gullible (at best) or is a plant shilling for one of the bandits (at worst)


----------



## Pissedoffmofo

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Pissedoff, as sags has indicated, you need to deal with the CRA but you would be 'a fool parted from his money' (twice) to pay anything more to the bandits that first took your 'donation' or any law firm or agency claiming to be able to help absolve you from the CRA.
> P.S. gostamps strikes me as gullible (at best) or is a plant shilling for one of the bandits (at worst)


I agree it would be foolish to sign up for the law suit. My soon to be ex friend, who sold me this claims that 3000 people have signed up paying $600 per head. At $1.8 mill, that's not a lot for a war chest, but is a good fcuk off money.

For those who have signed up, has anyone of you received word to settle your debt?


----------



## sags

goStamps said:


> casio Lawyers file for interest relief when they file their appeals..... Look you learned something today lol


The promoters will never take the case to the tax court. Cockroaches don't like the light.


----------



## goStamps

Its true the promoters arent filing apeals. Profitablegiving Canada and the legal team at Mcarth Tetrault is doing that.. lol dont shoot the messenger lol but that is happening. Some will pay CRA, some will fight...others will go bankrupt.. it is what it is


----------



## LpstkDani

*thank you everyone - some great advice*

Cockroaches is right! 
Having had to get a trustee to file a financial proposal to settle my CRA debt, we had also listed SunRx, Panaggregate, COIP, etc. in the proposal documents, but when we attempted to contact them regarding any amounts owing on "loans" etc., they never replied back, it was as though they didn't even really exist. 
I received one email several years ago from SunRx, this was after our attempt to contact them, so I replied back telling them to contact my trustee regarding any perceived debts. They never replied back, they never contacted my trustee, and have not emailed me since then. 
I would just love to see the scammers held accountable, rather than reading of their huge homes, wealthy lifestyles and "new ventures"!


----------



## sags

goStamps said:


> Its true the promoters arent filing apeals. Profitablegiving Canada and the legal team at Mcarth Tetrault is doing that.. lol dont shoot the messenger lol but that is happening. Some will pay CRA, some will fight...others will go bankrupt.. it is what it is


Speaking of McCarthy Tetrault........and fighting the CRA.

_On February 22, 2007, the Tax Court of Canada released an important decision with respect to the interpretation of the General Anti-Avoidance Rule (GAAR), and specifically the scope of the term “avoidance transaction” for the purposes of subsection 245(3) of the Income Tax Act. It was the taxpayers’ position that GAAR did not apply to certain of its transactions because the primary purpose of each was to achieve the taxpayers’ business objectives. The Crown argued that three of the transactions were undertaken primarily for a tax purpose, and therefore, regardless of the purpose of the other transactions or the overall purpose of the transactions, GAAR applied. It was determined that the transactions, individually and as a whole, were undertaken or arranged primarily for a non-tax purpose, and therefore GAAR did not apply. The Crown successfully appealed the decisions (R. v. MacKay et. al, 2008 FCA 105). *The Federal Court of Appeal found that unless “the non-tax business objectives required” that certain steps be taken to implement a transaction, those steps will be “avoidance transactions.” Further, the overall purpose of the transactions is irrelevant.*

*McCarthy Tétrault LLP represented the appellant with a team led by Ed Kroft.*_


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## sags

It isn't "required" that people who want to donate medicine obtain an inflated "loan" to do so.

The COIP scheme was tax avoidance and a sham.

McCarthy Tetrault don't list any tax cases or projects currently.

Years ago Synergy Group 2000 made the exact same types of sketchy arguments, claimed to hire a legal team, send money etc etc.

The result was the promoters were fined the maximum by Provincial regulators and banned for life from trading securities.

Subsequently, the RCMP raided their homes and charged them criminally with a $200 million dollar fraud.

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/2014/03/26/local-man-charged-in-200-million-fraud-case


----------



## sags

The wheels of justice turn slowly...........but they do turn.

The Synergy scam began in 2001. The CRA began rejecting refunds in about 2006. 

The OSC fined the promoters in 2010 and the RCMP laid charges in 2014.

The COIP scam may take as long to wind it's way to the end.


----------



## Pissedoffmofo

*Have any of you been told to settle the debt obligation?*

I know I asked this already, but I ask again:

Have any of you been told to settle the debt obligation either, verbally or thru mail?

What did u guys do about it?


----------



## goStamps

synergy won in Quebec. those charges were dropped.


----------



## Casio

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Pissedoff, as sags has indicated, you need to deal with the CRA but you would be 'a fool parted from his money' (twice) to pay anything more to the bandits that first took your 'donation' or any law firm or agency claiming to be able to help absolve you from the CRA.
> P.S. gostamps strikes me as gullible (at best) or is a plant shilling for one of the bandits (at worst)


Agreed. goStamps keeps defending the Tax shelters so I assume he (or she) is/was somehow involved with the promoters. Or as you said, just gullible. I mean, why would this person keep advising to pay a law firm or other group to fight CRA and throw more good money after bad? When the cheapest and most logical option would be to accept the CRA settlement offer and request more interest relief later, which can be done at no cost. Paying lawyers or buying more pharmaceuticals to settle a fake debt when they offer no guarantees of getting any money back just sounds ridiculous...


----------



## goStamps

//www.thestar.com/life/2013/08/09/a_week_in_canadas_first_rotating_bed_and_breakfast.html

Here is where the money went Steve Arnold director of panagregate


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## goStamps

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-solar-powered-boat-1.3392676

more money he stole spent on his parachute business hiding in PEI.

google Steve Arnold rotating b and b..


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## LpstkDani

*scam debt obligation*



Pissedoffmofo said:


> I know I asked this already, but I ask again:
> 
> Have any of you been told to settle the debt obligation either, verbally or thru mail?
> 
> What did u guys do about it?


SunRx emailed me to settle the debt obligation - I replied by email, telling them to contact my trustee, who was doing up a debtors proposal for me... 
We listed SunRx, PanAggregate, COIP, etc in the proposal and none of them replied to my trustee to settle any debts. 
Also, they have not contacted me since 2014 - it's like the proposal "unsubscribed" me from their money grab scam. 
I just don't understand how steve arnold, my ex-accountant, & others were able to get away with scamming us, getting commissions, payouts, trips, meals, etc... does CRA not go after them?


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## Pissedoffmofo

LpstkDani said:


> SunRx emailed me to settle the debt obligation - I replied by email, telling them to contact my trustee, who was doing up a debtors proposal for me...
> We listed SunRx, PanAggregate, COIP, etc in the proposal and none of them replied to my trustee to settle any debts.
> Also, they have not contacted me since 2014 - it's like the proposal "unsubscribed" me from their money grab scam.
> I just don't understand how steve arnold, my ex-accountant, & others were able to get away with scamming us, getting commissions, payouts, trips, meals, etc... does CRA not go after them?


Much like the police, they can't do much until the crime is committed.

LpstkDani: have u been approached to settle the latest debt obligation thru Justice Pharma and others?
Would love ur thoughts.


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## sags

A demand letter means nothing. 

When you receive a notice from the courts of a upcoming hearing on the debt, you can consider it then.


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## LpstkDani

Pissedoffmofo said:


> Much like the police, they can't do much until the crime is committed.
> 
> LpstkDani: have u been approached to settle the latest debt obligation thru Justice Pharma and others?
> Would love ur thoughts.



I have not heard anything from justice pharma, or anything from any of the scammers since 2014. 
... quite a relief! & fingers crossed I don't hear from any of them ever again!


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## AntiScam

*Profitable Giving Canada(PGC) & Justice Trading(JT)*

I participated in Mission Life Financial (MLF) in 2009, 2010 & 2011. When MLF went rogue in 2013, I started to receive emails from MLF in October 2013 to settle my debts with Integrated Receivables Management Inc.(IRM) for all the 3 years I participated. My promoter at that time was Fast Track Group, they advised all of its donors do not pay anything to them as it can be a scam, as the one time contribution we have paid should have taken care of everything. 

On another note, I suddenly started to receive emails from PGC out of nowhere that they have launched an investigations on 4 RPGAs, namely COIP, RLG, MLF & PGI. I have no idea how PGC got my email address and knew I participated in the tax shelter programs and I have been receiving emails from them non-stop until now!!!!! At one point I got so fed up with them and almost wanted to block them but I cannot help myself but read every email they sent. They seen to be very knowledgeable in what was happening with this whole tax shelter program, from the RPGAs went rogue, CRA reassessment and denials, notice of objections and the most recently, the notice of confirmation for COIP's objection for 2007, 2008, 2009. Further diggings and I found out that, one of the COIP and MLF structure creator, Shy Kurtz, is now on PGC's board chairperson. 

In the beginning, I read PGC's emails solely to get updates where our positions are with the CRA. Now, its emails get more intense and intimidating to urge donors to settle our loans and debts with Justice Trading(JT). I sent JT a short email on giving me an estimate how much will my loan settlement total be and I instantly heard back from them with all the details they need ie. statement of account, invoices, donation receipts and CRA TS 5003. I didn't really look for those documents and the same agent kept sending me emails about those documents and almost sounds like she is desperate for business. Also, Justice Trading's head office is registered in the British Virgin Islands, hell knows if they are a legitimate company or not but assumes it is, there is no Canadian Tax Court's decision so far that debt settlements with JT will be regarded as legitimate. One of my friends who is so adamant that he is going to settle his debts with JT, told me that PGC told him the first reason the loans must be settled is to complete the tax shelter transaction, therefore has a strong case to fight CRA, and the second reason is to pay off the loans MLF borrowed from its debtors to avoid recourse. PGC urged my friend to settle the who 2007 to 2011 loans altogether(although CRA only after COIP 2007 to 2009 now) because JT may shut its doors as loan settler for us without further notice. 

Since I have paid CRA all my owings plus the interests, I am going to sit back and watch PGC launches the first test case for COIP 2007 to 2009 class action against CRA and see how far and how successful they can go. If they win, I will settle my debt for MLF 2009 to 2011 and hope will win as well. If they loose in the COIP case, then there is no way I will waste my money to settle the loans. However, my friend told me the COIP case may take up to 5 or more years to fight and before a decision is reached, MLF's debtors will be knocking on my door and asking for their loans to be paid starting in the end of the 10th anniversary..........Looks like this whole bull **** is not going end and will just get more and more messy. 

For all of you COIP donors, have any one of your received contact from COIP's debtors yet that you need to settle your loans with them?


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## Casio

Informative video from a group planning legal action against CRA:

https://youtu.be/_K_xCiMNk2I

There are others forming class actions as well from what I hear.....


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## sags

This is a scam for more money for another legal fund. They don't want to talk about the last legal fund scam for money....LOL.

The money that was supposed to purchase drugs was spent by the promoters.

There has already been a Federal audit of the charities, and they were closed down. 

_A bogus AIDS charity that claimed it was curing disease in Africa with more than $200 million in life-saving drugs has been shut down by the Canada Revenue Agency.

The Orion Foundation, whose boss had a sideline business involving high class escort agencies, was operated for the “private gain” of the boss and fellow directors, a federal audit concluded._

_Trips to Vegas and Cuba, home renovations, booze, hundreds of thousands of dollars in unexplained management fees, and virtually nothing for good works was uncovered by auditors.

The Star exposed the charity in April 2009 in an investigative report on the dual life of foundation founder James Arion.

By day, he was hooked up with a tax shelter that through a complicated series of transactions extracted millions of dollars from Canadian donors and then *issued them tax receipts for up to five times the amount.*
_

https://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2010/05/11/charity_closed_after_bad_books_revealed.html


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## sags

Participants of these schemes should sue the promoters..............if they are still around.


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## Mukhang pera

sags said:


> Participants of these schemes should sue the promoters..............if they are still around.


The participants should also count themselves lucky if they don't go to jail, at least if the Star article cited is accurate when it says (and I suspect that it is):


"CRA looked at two years in its audit — $91 million of tax receipts issued by Orion to taxpayers who were told their money was buying AIDS drugs for “Sub-Saharan Africa”. Based on the formula COIP used, this means that donors likely gave about $15 million dollars in real money during the 2006-2007 period, but receipts were issued for six times that amount, which helps the donor at tax time. This produced whopping tax credits for donors that meant that they earned more than $2,000 for every $1,000 they donated."


Anyone "donating" $1,000 to a "charity" and who receives a receipt for $5,000 or $6,000 and then submits that to the CRA for a deduction in that amount must know they are engaged in tax evasion.


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## Casio

Sure Mukhang, that would involve jailing over 100,000 Canadians because that's how many have participated in tax shelters. Good luck with that. These tax shelters were sold by promoters who are lawyers, accountants etc by convincing people they were legitimate products. 

So my view is that it is the promoters who should be jailed, because they are the ones who are responsible. This was a scam and it is unfortunate that so many people got scammed but CRA did nothing to stop these promoters either. Hopefully, as Sags mentioned, the participants will be able to form a class action and sue the promoters at some point. And hopefully the Government will charge the promoters with fraud.


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## ian

Greed replaces common sense all too often. The proposal defied logic from the start.

This scam was no different from the investment scams that claim that you can withdraw your RSP money tax free by investing in some dodgy project. Often they are connected to some questionable real estate offerings. At the end of the day your RSP is gone and you are responsible for paying the income tax on the money that you withdrew from your RSP. Surprise! Does not matter if their lawyer or accountant says that it is kosher. The only thing that matters is the what CRA says and what is the tax law.

Cannot imagine why someone would give even more money to help fund some highly questionable law suit to someone who scammed them in the first place. Anyone can throw out the name of a well know law firm but it is the engagement letter/direction that counts. Think it through. Very sorry for those who got caught up in it....not good.


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## Mukhang pera

ian said:


> Greed replaces common sense all too often. The proposal defied logic from the start.



+1

Who could reasonably believe, without invoking a fair measure of wilful blindness, that the CRA would accept as legitimate a scheme whereby you "donate", for example, $1,000 to a cause, get a tax receipt for $5,000 and a tax refund for $2,000? As carverman said, _supra_ too good to be true.


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## ian

I do not think that any CRA challenge will be successful. My understanding is that one of the rules is that the amount of a charitable deduction cannot exceed the dollar value that you paid. Makes common sense to me.

There has been some chatter on the web about lawsuits with those law firms/lawyers and CA's/CPA's that claimed the program was solid from a tax law/accounting perspective. It was not. You did not have to be a lawyer or CA to figure that one out.


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## sags

Mukhang pera said:


> +1
> 
> Who could reasonably believe, without invoking a fair measure of wilful blindness, that the CRA would accept as legitimate a scheme whereby you "donate", for example, $1,000 to a cause, get a tax receipt for $5,000 and a tax refund for $2,000? As carverman said, _supra_ too good to be true.


Exactly.

If it was that easy nobody would pay taxes.


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## ian

It sounds odd but people do it. 

Here in Alberta, land of the Ponzi schemes, there are literally hundreds of people who have lost or jeopardized their retirement funds, or mortgaged their home/farm by/for investing in projects whose promoters claimed certain returns of 18-30 percent with GUARANTEED investment protection. Promoters are long gone....with most of the cash. The trustees in bankrupcy and the forensic accountants are doing a land office business.

And even though these schemes are often reported in the media, there are no doubt people who are still being hooked.


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## Mukhang pera

ian said:


> And even though these schemes are often reported in the media, there are no doubt people who are still being hooked.


And what's really galling is that those same get-rich-quick greedy dolts want the taxpayers to bail them out when things go as was easily foreseeable. They whine about the regulators not doing their jobs, etc. The government should have protected them from themselves.

I know of one individual here in BC who "invested" in an outfit called Newport Realty in the 1980s, when the prime rate had gone to 22.75 and people all around were getting clobbered. Newport was assuring some kind of outlandish returns. Yet it required investors to sign a document which stated, in part, (I do not recall the exact words, but along the lines of): "I recognize that Newport is offering a high-risk investment and that I might lose some of all of my money." Very plain. But that idiot (and others) still went to the BC Ombudsman to complain that the Superintendent of Brokers should be held liable for his loss. Not sure how that one finished. I am probably better off not knowing.


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## ian

Affinity fraud is rampant here, as is mismanagement and what I would call 'blind trust'or complete lack of due diligence by the investor.

Even the Lutheran Church is in bankruptcy here over a terribly mismanaged, ill timed, and poorly financed condo project west of town.

The victims are primarily elderly people who rely on their LIF, RIF, and RSP monies that were 'invested' with this organization. No fraud that we are aware of. 

Just utter mismanagement and perhaps a complete lack of due diligence on the part of the project managers, the board, and certainly the luckless investors.


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## bradycat

Well I have been scammed by COIP as well. gostamps, is more than likely part of that PCG. 

*PCG is a total scam*, because I have emails still from 2007 with my correspondence with Steve Arnold(biggest crook), and guess what….. I have Shy Kurtz(another crook), Who is listed as a person on their Committee Chair people......check it out http://www.profitablegiving.ca/?q=pgc-committee-chairpeople. ...............and Shy's sister Dalhia Kurtz was part of Fight Aids, Save Taxes also as COIP. I dealt directly with her at one point.

And if this was a legit company, you shouldn't have to pay for ANYTHING, because they want to file a class action lawsuit, and they are taking all the risk, so why are they making you pay to going this group????

think twice if you join this company, to get NO RELIEF, they will drag you along, and probably get you to pay more money at one point. SCAM SCAM SCAM.

Good luck if you do.


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## Pissedoffmofo

bradycat said:


> Well I have been scammed by COIP as well. gostamps, is more than likely part of that PCG.
> 
> *PCG is a total scam*, because I have emails still from 2007 with my correspondence with Steve Arnold(biggest crook), and guess what….. I have Shy Kurtz(another crook), Who is listed as a person on their Committee Chair people......check it out http://www.profitablegiving.ca/?q=pgc-committee-chairpeople. ...............and Shy's sister Dalhia Kurtz was part of Fight Aids, Save Taxes also as COIP. I dealt directly with her at one point.
> 
> And if this was a legit company, you shouldn't have to pay for ANYTHING, because they want to file a class action lawsuit, and they are taking all the risk, so why are they making you pay to going this group????
> 
> think twice if you join this company, to get NO RELIEF, they will drag you along, and probably get you to pay more money at one point. SCAM SCAM SCAM.
> 
> Good luck if you do.


Have u signed the waiver with the CRA?
Also, have u been approached to settle with Justice Pharma?


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## bradycat

Pissedoffmofo said:


> Have u signed the waiver with the CRA?
> Also, have u been approached to settle with Justice Pharma?


Yes I have signed it and mailed it in. I just want it all over, cause it's a pain in the ***.
Who is Justice Pharma. 

Did you sign the papers?


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## Pissedoffmofo

bradycat said:


> Yes I have signed it and mailed it in. I just want it all over, cause it's a pain in the ***.
> Who is Justice Pharma.
> 
> Did you sign the papers?


No, I asked and got an extension. Until May 5th. I may send in a form asking for additional relief.

What's ur exposure?
Would love to talk to u privately about all this. R u in BC?

Don't know how to explain it but we may have to settle the original loan because of the BS with COIP. approx 13% of the original loan amount.

Sorry to hear u got caught up in this mess as well. Take care


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## bradycat

I am in Ontario.

I just sent you a private message, by clicking on your name.

You should have it now.


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## Pissedoffmofo

bradycat said:


> I am in Ontario.
> 
> I just sent you a private message, by clicking on your name.
> 
> You should have it now.


Got ur message. Thanks.


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## TaxIssue

*COIP 2007*

I could really use some advice. I participated in COIP 2007 and I have been looking at my options for getting myself out of this mess. I don’t want to have to repay the loans and get my tax credits revoked (and I assume pay fines??). I see that PGC and justice pharma have just launched a class defence and their reasoning for why joining will both settle my loan and possibly protect my tax credits seems to make sense… but it’s just such a touchy situation. What do people think of this as an option? Is there any other option?


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## goStamps

I don’t know if it helps, TaxIssue, but I recently decide to take the plunge and I settled my debt through Justice Pharma and joined the class defence. I am not sure whether we will actually win in court, but my reasoning went like this: 

I was going to owe thousands of dollars to the original tax shelter because I (like all of you) took a large loan from them to participate in this program (it’s in your original contract – take a look). Also outlined in the original contract is the ways in which the loan can be repaid, and one of those ways is by giving them back the same quantity of identical pharmaceuticals. Justice pharma’s claim was that they could produce the exact quantity and type of pills that I had taken the loan out to purchase for a fraction of the original cost. By returning these pills to the programs it supposedly legally settles my debt. I was hesitant, but I did it… and believe it or not it worked. I have official documents from COIP stating that my debt is completely settled and that I don’t owe them anything. Justice also tells me that the way that the debt was settled makes me eligible to keep my tax credits, but to do so I have to go up against the CRA in tax court. I don’t have the money to hire my own lawyers, so I saw the minor fees to join the class defence as worth it. Especially given that I now get to keep thousands of dollars that I would have been legally obliged to pay back if I hadn’t settled.
Realistically, given my financial situation, if I am forced to pay the CRA back I am going to be in deep trouble. I don’t see the relatively minor class defence fees as being a massive investment to give me a fighting chance at keeping my tax credits, especially since PGC has hired one of the best tax lawyers in Canada, Nicolas Cloutier at McCarthy Tétrault. The only other option is to just give up, accept the CRA claims that I am not entitled to any tax credits, and agree to pay them whatever they decide that I owe. I don’t know about you but that didn’t sit right with me.
Hope this helps.


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## DLO

goStamps said:


> I don’t know if it helps, TaxIssue, but I recently decide to take the plunge and I settled my debt through Justice Pharma and joined the class defence. I am not sure whether we will actually win in court, but my reasoning went like this:
> 
> I was going to owe thousands of dollars to the original tax shelter because I (like all of you) took a large loan from them to participate in this program (it’s in your original contract – take a look). Also outlined in the original contract is the ways in which the loan can be repaid, and one of those ways is by giving them back the same quantity of identical pharmaceuticals. Justice pharma’s claim was that they could produce the exact quantity and type of pills that I had taken the loan out to purchase for a fraction of the original cost. By returning these pills to the programs it supposedly legally settles my debt. I was hesitant, but I did it… and believe it or not it worked. I have official documents from COIP stating that my debt is completely settled and that I don’t owe them anything. Justice also tells me that the way that the debt was settled makes me eligible to keep my tax credits, but to do so I have to go up against the CRA in tax court. I don’t have the money to hire my own lawyers, so I saw the minor fees to join the class defence as worth it. Especially given that I now get to keep thousands of dollars that I would have been legally obliged to pay back if I hadn’t settled.
> Realistically, given my financial situation, if I am forced to pay the CRA back I am going to be in deep trouble. I don’t see the relatively minor class defence fees as being a massive investment to give me a fighting chance at keeping my tax credits, especially since PGC has hired one of the best tax lawyers in Canada, Nicolas Cloutier at McCarthy Tétrault. The only other option is to just give up, accept the CRA claims that I am not entitled to any tax credits, and agree to pay them whatever they decide that I owe. I don’t know about you but that didn’t sit right with me.
> Hope this helps.


Justice Pharma and PGC: Positives = potential of keeping all or portion of tax credits or getting an interest waive deal from the CRA. Negatives = costs more money, court process will take a long time (CRA interest continues to accrue), potential of being in the same position you are in today with the exception of more interest owing.

As far as owing money to original "tax shelter"...don't think we can even call them a tax shelter anymore as the CRA has audited the program and revoked their status as a tax shelter (this is why the same individuals marketed new programs under different names). Going into the program it was clear that the initial cash outlay provided by participants was sufficient enough to satisfy all obligations of the program. Somewhere along the way the relationship b/w the program and Fast Track went sour and the program was asking participants for more money. Yes the contracts signed have pledges and commitments. If the program uses a collection agency to try and collect on what they think is owing, send them a letter to cease and desist and to take the matter to court. I can't see any judge siding with the program (regardless of the contracts and who have already taken participants initial cash outlay) if a participant identifies that they have paid the CRA back what was owing to them. There were thousands of participants all across the country in this program and any judge will identify the program for what it was, a tax shelter arrangement that has had their status pulled...rendering the contracts a sham. Just my opinion, but I don't see there being a risk that the program will be successful in collecting a supposed debt owing to them (resources to take thousands of taxpayers all across Canada to court - whether it be small claims or not, especially given that the gov't, CRA, court system views the program as a scam). Anyway, for what it's worth.


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## quiggles88

*COIP Shelter*

I was wondering if anybody received a letter from CRA and agreed to a settlement?

Thank you


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## sags

People should pay the settlement offer from CRA to stop the accumulation of interest and possible seizure of assets.

_In 2014, the CRA recovered all amounts owing by way of a lien on his property_.

http://business.financialpost.com/l...efuse-relief-from-interest-charges-court-says

If people wish to participate in a lawsuit to recover their money they can still do that, although it doesn't look like there is much chance of winning in tax court.

Similar tax reduction schemes have been deemed fraudulent in several Federal Courts and upheld by the Supreme Court.


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## Pissedoffmofo

sags said:


> People should pay the settlement offer from CRA to stop the accumulation of interest and possible seizure of assets.
> 
> _In 2014, the CRA recovered all amounts owing by way of a lien on his property_.
> 
> http://business.financialpost.com/l...efuse-relief-from-interest-charges-court-says
> 
> If people wish to participate in a lawsuit to recover their money they can still do that, although it doesn't look like there is much chance of winning in tax court.
> 
> Similar tax reduction schemes have been deemed fraudulent in several Federal Courts and upheld by the Supreme Court.


You don't have to sign the offer of settlement, but it is advisable to pay off the CRA to avoid accumulating any more interest. The common misconception is that if you don't sign the offer of settlement, the next step is to fight the CRA on your own. That is not true. What it means is that the next step, test cases will be randomly selected to go to court. Whether you will be selected as a test case, I don't know what is the chance. Will have to ask the CRA about that. Once paid, you can apply for taxpayer interest relief. Whether you qualify will depend on how you fill out the form. May even have to talk to an account about that.

I am still on the fence about signing the waiver and have gotten two extensions to make my decision. One thing I am certain, I will not take part in the law suit. I believe it's a scam. From COIP to Profitable Giving to Justice Pharma, they are all the same people. Preying on your desperation because of your inability to pay off what you owe. You are better off trying to work out a payment plan with the CRA and throwing away good money into this mess.

I wish all of you the best of luck.


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## Casio

I wholeheartedly agree with Pissedoffmofo. Why anyone would join the Profitable giving (PGC) lawsuit is baffling. Do you keep getting e-mails from PGC or Justice Pharma? Ask yourself: how did they get your e-mail address? The only way is from COIP sharing their donor database containing contact info with PGC, so as Pissedoff said, it's all the same horrible people preying on our fears. They know that there are a large number of donors who most likely can't afford to pay what they owe so they are trying to milk them for a few more dollars with the hope that the lawsuit will prevail, but offer no guarantees. I find it disgusting that these promoters are trying to make more money from the same donors who they lied to and scammed. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I hope CRA investigates and goes after the promoters, we shall see. Good luck to all.


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## Pissedoffmofo

Casio said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with Pissedoffmofo. Why anyone would join the Profitable giving (PGC) lawsuit is baffling. Do you keep getting e-mails from PGC or Justice Pharma? Ask yourself: how did they get your e-mail address? The only way is from COIP sharing their donor database containing contact info with PGC, so as Pissedoff said, it's all the same horrible people preying on our fears. They know that there are a large number of donors who most likely can't afford to pay what they owe so they are trying to milk them for a few more dollars with the hope that the lawsuit will prevail, but offer no guarantees. I find it disgusting that these promoters are trying to make more money from the same donors who they lied to and scammed. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I hope CRA investigates and goes after the promoters, we shall see. Good luck to all.


I was never contacted by PGC, though the person who got me into this is my coworker and has been emailing me to join the law suit. I don't want to be put in a position that I'll get double teamed into signing up for this crap. I also don't want to be in the position that I may throw someone out the window! LOL

What's also infuriating is that they are saying that your loan isn't settled due to rogue promoters and in order to settle you have to pay the equivalent of 13 % of ur loan to do so or risk the collection agency coming after you! It's only if you settle the loan that you can take part in the law suit, which will cost you even more money. 

Guys and girls, DONT DO IT!!!!

While I have no comment about the loan, I can say that you can benefit from the lawsuit without taking part in it. If for some miraculous reason, the lawsuit is successful, you can still "settle" your loan later.
Your main priority should be to pay back the CRA to avoid anymore interests. Everything else is irrelevant.

Once again, good luck !


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## DLO

*Collections*

If you get contacted by collections, send them a letter to stop all contact, dispute the amount owing and tell them to take you to court. If they follow through and actually move fwd. with a court process (thousands of participants) I doubt that any judge will side with the sleazy promoters of these programs, despite there being contracts. CRA has stripped them of their charitable donations status, programs have been deemed a sham, further audits by CRA, took consumer money already and are wanting more (was never supposed to be more obey from consumer), etc., etc.


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## canadianjameson

Just to weigh in on a few points raised here:

1) The reason that we’re all in this mess is because the people who ran the original programs did not follow through on their commitments, and by doing so invalidated the structure of the whole donation scheme. That’s why the CRA has reassessed everyone – because as of right now, for those who haven’t compliantly settled, the CRA is right… your current situation doesn’t comply with the law and so you are not entitled to the tax credits that they gave you.

Think of it like this: when the programs originally structure the approach that they sold you on what they had on paper as a ‘plan’ was good. Unfortunately they didn’t follow through with what they said they would, and so things went south and now it doesn’t meet the requirements to be applicable for tax credits. Not all of the promotors were rotten from the start – it turn out that a lot of them actually had a lot of their own money in the programs and got screwed just like everyone else. A lot of them got family, friend, and coworkers (like Pissedoffmofo) to sign on because they believed in it, not because they were trying to screw anyone...

2) What Justice Pharma seems to do is pick up where the programs failed and actually allow people to bring their situation back in line with the Canadian tax code, thereby making them eligible to keep their tax credits. Unfortunately the CRA is applying a blanket approach to everyone, which requires that everyone who is actually able to keep their credits band together and prove in court that they have met the requirements to do so. This ‘banding together’ is the PGC Class Defence.

To the point about Justice charging 13 cents on the dollar… yes, that seems to be true but that is less than 10% of what you actually owe to the programs + the CRA. But it’s a business… why would they not charge something? I’m surprised that they don’t charge more, actually.

I get that nobody wants to put more money into this and that everyone is rightfully distrustful of all parties right now… but it really boils down to whether the approach put forth by Justice Pharma actually works. It’s proven 100% effective in settling the loan – there’s no argument there. As for the Class Defence, we can only wait and see.

To the point about the promotors not being able to win in court if they come after you to collect on the loan, unfortunately them being stripped of charitable status (etc.) does not play in because the contract they have with you does not relate to your tax credits (read it carefully). It’s sad and unfair, but if you don’t settle your debt (by either repaying it 100% in cash, of by paying 13% through Justice Pharma) you still have an outstanding loan which can be called in once the contracts expire. From what I have read the programs are owed over 1 Billion dollars – why would they not call in the loans at some point? Anyways, it seems pretty simple to me – even if the Class Defence were to not work you’re still 87% ahead if you settle your debt through Justice Pharma – or is my math wrong? Can someone weigh in?

3) To the point about people not having to join the Class Defence to benefit from a positive decision, this again is sadly not exactly the case. The Class Defence seems to be (from what I have read) only applicable to people who meet specific criteria (the same criteria required to join it in the first place). Namely they must have compliantly settled their debt through the Justice Pharma program – because the approach to settlement that they use has been reviewed by tax lawyers and is in line with the Canadian tax code. I can’t speak to whether the CRA, after being defeated in tax court, will open up its coffers and say “anyone who wants to keep your giant tax credits just send us X, Y, Z and you’re good! … it seems unlikely, though, as their whole approach to date has been to try to get back as much money as possible =\

4) Also, as a final point… I’m pretty sure that I read somewhere that the people who started Justice Pharma are themselves caught in this mess, having invested a lot of money into the original programs because their structure – as advertised – was sound. They created Justice Pharma because nobody else was doing anything and all Canadian participants were going to take a gigantic financial hit if a solution wasn’t found. 

Anyways, just my two cents. I’m the kind of person that does his research in situations like these so I’ve read through the entirety of the PGC and Justice Pharma websites, along with as much else as I can get my hands on. I’m happy to chat about any aspect of this, and feel free to disagree with what I write – but just please attack my points, not me…

Thanks


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## DLO

*Collections*

· Promoters provided an outline of plan

· Pay the prepaid interest on a loan to buy medicine units

· Value of loan is based on fair market value of medicine units (not actual money spent by the promoters)

· No other cash outlay required by participants to satisfy the plan

· A few years later the promoters contact participants indicating that we owe more money to complete the plan (either cash or medicine units) – not following through on plan

· The value they stated we owed was a fraction of what is identified as a loan amount in the contracts

· At that time we were advised by the now absent FAST group to respond in writing disputing the loan and advise them to take us to court

· No response received to letter sent

· Since that time the CRA has deemed the programs to be shams, they no longer have charitable donation status and are no longer considered to be a legal tax shelter (yes, this will be ultimately decided in tax court and the tax shelter info is all over the contracts)



If the promoters start calling in loans, given the CIRCUMSTANCES, I have a hard time understanding how a judge would deem the contracts and promissory notes enforceable (especially the full value of the so-called “loan” in the contracts – again, the promoters never spent any money, they used the prepaid interest we gave them). Contracts are deemed not enforceable all the time in the court system. 

CIRCUMSTANCES for an individual:

· Paid the CRA back the amounts in dispute
· Have received no monetary value in participating in the program(s) (lost money – prepaid interest already provided to promoters)
· Promoters themselves acknowledged that the loan could be settled for an amount that was a fraction of what the loan amount indicates in contract (money or medicine units)
· No charitable donation status according to CRA
· All of this is exponentially compounded if the lawsuit fails and it is determined that the promoters were not operating a legal tax shelter
· And given all this, even if it is decided that there is enforceability, I don’t believe it will be considered reasonable, for sake of example, for the promoters to declare that $20 will settle the loan and many years later say it will take $1000 (interest aside)

These are all things that would be considered. Does the judge award a decision in favor of the promoters (who are trying to line their pockets, snub their nose to the government tax system, and who would clearly be trying to take advantage of taxpayers) or thousands of individuals who got caught up in a well-intended plan gone wrong, admitted mistakes by paying back CRA and who have already been cheated out of money by the promoters.


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## goStamps

Just received an email from Tony Merchant... he is NOT sueing COIP...


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## DLO

*Loan/Collections*

Is anyone actually aware of a 2006 participant who has had their "loan" called in by the shady plan developers? They would be almost a year into the expiry of the sham contracts where the developers used none of their own capital, squandered the prepaid interest they were given by participants and collected commissions. Just curious...as per previous post, they may try...but will be unsuccessful in enforcing any monies they think are owed in this shady operation. The very same reason the CRA is not accepting the donation amount (over inflated value of assets - in this case, pills) will be the same validation the court system will use if the developers take it to court.


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## ian

It is unclear to my why anyone would pony up money to join the law suit or indeed to give one more dime to the organizers behind the programs. This whole business was a total scam form the get go. People who expected to give $1000. and get a charitable receipt for tax purposes for $10,000 (or more) were fooling themselves. Never made any sense that CRA would accept this. After all, if was legit everyone and his dog would have done it. Wouldn't they???

So why not pay CRA and stop the interest accumulation. Wait and see what happens with the appeals, the supposed tax court appeals, litigation, whatever. If by chance they are successful then simply have your tax return re-assessed. There is a time limit on this but my experience is that CRA will waive this time limit under reasonable circumstances. We had returns that our accounted requested CRA to change/re-assess when they were outside the time limit. CRA immediately agreed. Just don't put any more of your money in the promoter's sink hole. I suspect those who are are being played like a fiddle.


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## goStamps

Shy Kurtz and Nicolas Cloutier webinar as follows:

Wednesday Sept 27, 9pm EDT: Part 1
https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1463304127017486337

Sunday Oct 1, 1pm EDT: Part 1
https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1637764736508462081

Sunday Oct 1, 2pm EDT: Part 2 
https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1875873875108269569

Tuesday Oct 3, 9pm EDT: Part 2 
https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1492911776130647297


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## james4beach

Mukhang pera said:


> The participants should also count themselves lucky if they don't go to jail, at least if the Star article cited is accurate when it says (and I suspect that it is):
> . . .
> Anyone "donating" $1,000 to a "charity" and who receives a receipt for $5,000 or $6,000 and then submits that to the CRA for a deduction in that amount must know they are engaged in tax evasion.


This is one of the stranger threads I've seen at this forum. I'm with Mukhang pera on this.


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## ian

I have to agree. No matter how you slice this one the only way it makes sense to someone is if they put greed ahead of common sense.

This is very different from something like a MURB, flow through share, technology credit, any other tax avoidance scheme because on these there is in fact an acknowledged day of reconciliation or reckoning from a tax payable perspective. 

No such thing from this scam or others like it that involve things like donation of art or artifacts to museums at a highly inflated value.

The bottom line for me is .....does it make sense that you can donate $1000. to a so called charity, get a tax donation receipt for $10,000 (or more) and actually expect the CRA to go along with it??? And if it does, why isn't everyone doing this? Maybe it is true what they say...common sense is not so common as one would think. Plus, there is the slick salesperson or so called financial advisor who is more interested in skimming a handsome commission from this transaction than in providing cogent financial advice.


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## sags

Some people lose a lot of money to these types of scams. It just proves that having money doesn't make people any smarter.


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## ian

It is often so difficult to avoid a scam. Could be a fast talking salesperson or a trusted organization or some well respected person inside that organization.

Here in Alberta people have even lost money investing in a church sponsored plan. It was so bad that it put the Lutheran Church in Alberta/BC into bankruptcy. People have, and will be loosing some of their retirement funds that they thought were invested in church mortgages. Turns out they started to put the money into a condo/housing development that failed miserably. It has been kept relatively quiet and out of he media.


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## bgc_fan

ian said:


> It is often so difficult to avoid a scam. Could be a fast talking salesperson or a trusted organization or some well respected person inside that organization.
> 
> Here in Alberta people have even lost money investing in a church sponsored plan. It was so bad that it put the Lutheran Church in Alberta/BC into bankruptcy. People have, and will be loosing some of their retirement funds that they thought were invested in church mortgages. Turns out they started to put the money into a condo/housing development that failed miserably. It has been kept relatively quiet and out of he media.


Actually lot of it is media and marketing. The media shows all these stories about how the rich are all taking advantage of tax shelters to avoid paying their fair share. Promoters swoop in with the line that just like the rich, you common folk can take advantage of tax shelters. If they sound complicated, well that's why only the rich were able to hire accountants and lawyers to set them up. Then the kicker is don't worry, if you get audited we have lawyers to deliver with it.


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## ian

Agreed. But there is a huge difference between a tax shelter and COIP. When I bought into a tax shelter I got a large tax deduction in year 1. I needed it. I was fully aware that this was very much an income deferral and an investment opportunity. At some point I was aware that monies would have to be taken back into income. Albeit ten or so years later. I purchased a large tax shelter in 1997. It was one of those that was film industry based. I should not have, and I regretted it. The only reason that I broke even on it was that I took the deduction while living in BC at an incremental rate of about 52 percent. I started taking money, on paper, back into income in 2002-when I was in Alberta and the incremental tax rate was 39 percent. That delta of 10 points or so made the difference for me. Plus it was of the few years that the program broke even instead of realizing a loss. Bottom line is I should not have done it because I did not truly understand the business. Tax avoidance encouraged my decision BUT I was fully aware that I was only shifting income from one period to another.....not avoiding it altogether.

With these phoney charity schemes people paid $1k for a tax receipt of $10K, maybe even more. For this they rec'd an immediate tax credit. That would have been the end of it......unless of course CRA rejected the plan as a scam. Which it was, and which they did.


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## bgc_fan

The thing is most people don't understand the intricacies of how proper tax shelters are supposed to work. They just see this big tax deduction and think nothing more on it. Again, as you have mentioned some are introduced by friends who have done it before and so there is some trust there as well.


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## ian

One of my SIL's just invested her small life savings with a local lawyer. My spouse asked her why she did this, whether she looked for other advice, etc. Her answer was quite astounding. She said he is a lawyer and his brother had a locker at school opposite mine so I know him.

That is exactly how affinity fraud works!


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## Casio

Has anyone received their notices of confirmation from CRA for COIP? They still haven't sent me a statement of account showing what is owed after waiving the interest that they mentioned in their letter.... It's ridiculous and unfair that they take so long to process an account balance, specially because this thing has been dragging on for over 10 years. I accepted their offer and all I want is to pay the outstanding amount but I don't even know what that is. What are people's thoughts? Please only reply if you actually participated in COIP. FYI here's what the auditor general is saying about CRA: http://nationalpost.com/news/politi...-respond-to-tax-complaints-and-its-costing-us


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## sags

Look up your My CRA account and if you have been reassessed you can make the payments.


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## sags

In the income tax scams, the people already received the refund and the CRA simply demands the money back.


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## Casio

The CRA MyAccount hasn't been updated, I already checked. This is an issue basically related to CRA sending a settlement offer, taxpayers accepting it, but CRA not providing the monetary amount of the settlement which leaves taxpayers in the dark. Then CRA automatically transfers the amount to be collected over to collections, but taxpayers haven't been informed on what the outstanding amount is!!! Also known as the CRA's "counting the Chicken before the Egg hatches" process. It might sound unclear to someone who has not participated in COIP, which is why I was asking for responses only from people who had gotten caught up in the COIP mess... because those people will know what I'm referring to.


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## goStamps

wait for the reassessment.. dont worry it will come lol


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## goStamps

Did you ever receive your interest relief or reassessment? New round of communication coming for all of these TS programs so I have heard, questionnaire and agreement to be bound regarding the PGC appeals.


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## wealthhealthyou

I received CRA Notice of Assessment with amount owing and due date to pay. I started donating in 2006. anyone who received theirs?


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## Paythepiper

wealthhealthyou said:


> I received CRA Notice of Assessment with amount owing and due date to pay. I started donating in 2006. anyone who received theirs?


Yes received it. Participated in COIP for 2007 2008, and 2009 tax year. As of now owe 5 figures of which approximate half is principle, half is interest. Plan is to pay full amount owing and apply for full interest relief with reason of undue CRA delay. This is a "check the box" reason on interest relief form RC4288 and can be submitted online through CRA my account. Interest relief form review can take a year or more for CRA to complete. Have not seen any recent internet information for COIP participants. Here is a concise write-up of where things are at: Notice of Confirmation | Profitable Giving Canada.
Apparently 10s of thousands folks participated in COIP. Curious to see if any more posts show up on this forum or elsewhere about the CRA Notice of Assessment.


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