# Ugh -- tenant never pays



## jamesbe

So I've gotten to the point with my Tenant that I have sent in the N4 form for non-payment. (I'm in Ontario).

She seems nice enough, had a few problems with an employer and that really messed up her finances.

So she was paying me half the rent at the start of the month and the other half a few weeks later. I was okay with it, but it seems like that was a bad thing to accept because now it's getting out of hand.

Rent is $1200 and she sent me $800 the second Friday of Feb, then said she would send me the other $400 Feb 18th. No payment on the 19th so I sent her a message, she read it (got to like notifications) but no reply. A few days later I sent an e-mail no reply. So yesterday I served the N4.

So the first of the month comes up in a week, but I had to give 15 days, (so march 8th). What happens come the 8th if...
1) she pays the remaining of Feb but hasn't paid for Mar yet (due on the 1st).
2) She hasn't paid anything...

In scenario 1 do I have to submit another N1 for Mar? Should I do that on the 2nd of the month if she doesn't pay it right away, despite having now till the 8th?

What a PITA, I've been in the house (last week) and the place is clean and well kept so that is good.... but the lack of communication and $ is driving me up the wall.


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## marina628

You have to protect yourself but it sounds like she was a great tenant until a specific event affected her finances.I would try to have a face to face see what her plan of action is to get her finances in order and try to work with her.


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## jamesbe

Well she only moved in, in Sept and only paid on time once...  So it's not like she had a lot of good history unfortunately. I'm not sure what she does with her money and it's none of my business really except for the fact that I'm not getting what I'm owed. But I know she gets child support for more than the rent value and she makes about $40k a year on top of that.


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## marina628

Sorry I assumed she was there for a while.Based on that information I would proceed as you have and also let her know you want rent on the first of the month in full.Is it possible she gave false info on her application and does not make what she declared?


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## jamesbe

Possible but from her occupation it is about right, she was wearing scrubs a few times we met.


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## jamesbe

So I read the N4 more carefully and see in scenario #1 they also have to pay Mar 1st rent by Mar 8th or I can apply for termination with the board. I guess that is good.

What about last month rent? Do they now forfeit that because they were terminated?


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## OptsyEagle

I can't say this will help but I had a friend in a similar situation (tenant was paying rent at haphazard times) and this is what I told him.

When a person starts to have financial difficulty (whether it is their fault or not) you need to ask yourself this question:

"did everyone that the tenant owed money to, not get paid on time?". I think when you ponder that you can't help but answer, of course not. So the next question is: "why did they get paid and and not you?".

The answer to the question is quite simple. The tenant believed that you would be the most understanding and possibly accomodating then all the others that she owed money to... and that is the crux of the problem.

Once you allowed her to miss a payment, she believed you to be more understanding and accomodating then most of her other creditors. So in essense, this is not the fault of your tenant but of you. You are going to need to "prick" it up a little. Be completely unsympathetic and unwaivering to the point of being paid the exact amount on the specific date. The N4 is the start of this journey and I suggest you do not move off this path. Let someone else, who perhaps has made a much smaller investment, be the sympathetic shoulder.

That the best advice I can give. I just hope it is not too late.


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## jamesbe

Yes I am hoping that the N4 "scares" the tenant into realizing that I'm not fooling around. And yes I plan on now requiring rent on the 1st. If it has to be put off then ... I don't know...


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## the-royal-mail

Sorry you are going through this. My experience with this type of tenant is they waste your time with paperwork and such, then finally come up with the rent payment so they don't actually get evicted. Then the cycle repeats the following month.

You are far more patient than I was.


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## jamesbe

Yes they do not seem like people that want to get evicted, they have made the place a home buying curtains and things so they obviously want to stay. Also they have a young child so moving isn't easy.


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## humble_pie

my sympathy goes out 100% to landlords having to deal with difficult tenants & to the posters here who are helping out with good advice, as in get-tough advice. The only way imho.

but it makes me think of the summer i hired a youth from out west to help me with some garden projects. He was a plains Cree, born in northern saskatchewan but fostered out in early childhood. 

billy was a hard worker & a fine kid, with a strong moral sense. Like many of his peers, he had a certain history, even at the age of 20. Alcoholism was a thing of the past, though. He'd gone through that stage & sobered up permanently by 18.

he didn't mind that when we had to leave the house unoccupied, we'd lock the doors, ie we'd lock him out. I always gave him $10 or $12 for lunch & the cafes were close by, so he was OK with that.

billy was a documentary film come to life & i loved the time he spent with us, including the days he'd play hooky because he'd gotten work cleaning oil refineries in the east end of town or he felt like attending the Corn Festival.

among other things i learned how penniless but resourceful people who are in constant debt really live. Late every afternoon i'd pay billy in cash. Every evening, he'd run around to all the businesses where he owed money & give them some $$$. Not the total that he owed them, but something. The landlord, the grocery store, the clothing store (he had a weakness for expensive shoes.)

the next morning he'd show up penniless again. But he would be able to get by like this forever & ever, he said.


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## sags

I think the difference is access to cheap credit for some....but not all.

People with good credit can hide a lot of problems. They use credit cards and pay it off with their HELOC and then refinance the mortgage.

Poor people use payday loans.

As noted by one analyst on BNN today, the old days of borrowing to pay off a home are long gone. These days, people rack up credit cards and then use their credit lines and then refinance.

According to the statistics...............a lot of people are doing exactly that. Flaherty and Carney aren't worried about home owners with a lot of equity in their homes. They are worried about everyone else.

I remember reading financial forums in the US, and people were incensed that the banks recalled their credit lines or lowered the limits so they couldn't borrow anymore. They "needed" that credit to survive.

We are in the early stages of a collapse. It will take time to unravel....but all indications are that it will. We are following the same path as the US.


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## orange

Hi jamesbe,

Sorry to hear of your tenant troubles...frustrating to say the least. As for what to do, first off, serving the N4 was the right step - it creates a proper document trail in case you need to evict. 

As for the next step, you must decide whether you want to keep the tenant or not. I think tenants who are perpetually late on rent need to go, but if you are in a situation where you don't think you will be able to rent out the unit, having a tenant that pays at least something is better than nothing for now. I don't know the Ottawa market, so you decide.

If you *DO NOT WANT TO KEEP* the tenant:

1) *if she pays up by the deadline*, the clocks are reset and you can't do anything...the N4 goes away. BUT - serve an N4 on the second of the month again, and each and every time you do not receive rent in full on the first. Each time she will have the same 14 days to make payment. Rinse and repeat. Then, file an N8 (giving at least 60 days before the end of her lease) - this is a notice to end the tenancy due to persistently late payments. In Ontario, at the end of the stated lease period the tenant has the right to go month-to-month indefinitely, whether you want them or not. The N8 will allow you to end the tenancy rather than allowing her to go month to month. If she refuses to leave at the end of tenancy, serve an L2 for eviction.

2)*If she does not pay up by the deadline*, serve and L1 (notice to end tenancy and collect for non-payment of rent). You will receive a date (eventually) for a hearing at the LTB...there you can make your case. If your tenant doesn't show up your application to evict will be approved. If she shows up, your application may be denied and you will likely be told to work out a payment plan...which she may or may not follow...at which time you can go back to the board and get the eviction.



If you *WANT TO KEEP* the tenant:

1)*if she pays up by the deadline*, try to work out an official payment plan with her, but again, serve that N4 each and every time rent is late... keep doing that until you get sick of being nice 

2)*If she does not pay up by the deadline*, and for some reason you want to keep her (maybe you know you can't rent out the unit), you can file an L9 which is an application to collect for rent owed (like L1) but without eviction.

If what you say about the tenant seeming like they want to stay is true, serving the N4, N8, L9 will hopefully scare her to death and smarten her out. If not, you really do need to play hardball and evict - you may be nice, but you are not a social worker or bank and you have to protect yourself and your financial assets.

Once again, I'm sorry for your situation - it's unfortunate that small landlords are so often placed in this situation. Hope it works out!


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## jamesbe

Thanks for that, I learned a lot with that.


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## gt45

Im finding out that people will screw you every turn or roll of the dice, I have my place up for rent and the number of cranky whiney broke and un happy people who come threw my house on the pretense that im just going to rent to any one is a trip to bonker ville.

Im a sob, quote because I will not rent to a young family with no credit, or job history, than 20 mim later threw email they have a job when at the time of showing, they had no employment goals.

I have put some elbow grease into my place, GFI on the repcticals, hand rails offf the back deck and insuring home is safe for kids, just to make the palce wram and nice for a tenant I hope to repesct.

Oh and the manners of thease pricks, hang ups on the pre screan because I don't have a dish washer, or that the rooms are small in demensions, or you can't park a 18 whealer in the garadge. All this is up front in my rent add.

I hope your tennant sees the light, thier are a lot of dumbass ignorant land lords out thier.

And the moment you try to be nice, your screwed.


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## GreenAvenue

I kinda agree with above mentioned post. But the danger is that if you start to treat tenants like they treat you in the end you will hate every tenant. 

I work with a contract. You want to move in, sign the contract. Don't pay? I change the locks, I had it checked with a lawyer first but I can actually do that (but than again I'm not in Ontario). 

Also, to get to the better type of tenant I raised the monthly rent with $100. Now suddenly a whole different type of tenant knocked on my door. 

If potential tenants don't have decent shoes or footwear and if their teeth look like a grave yard I don't want them.


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## Cal

On the first of march rent is due. period.

Have them borrow from a relative, or someone else, and owe them money. But your rent money is due immediately.

No more emails or anything. Hey they may even say your are harrassing them.

N4. Have them pay or follow through with the eviction process.


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## jamesbe

Well I haven't called / txt or e-mail since last Monday when we gave them the N4. But I haven't heard a peep from them either. 

I'm debating calling as it's driving me nuts not know WTF is going on.


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## Berubeland

First I want you to know that I collect a lot from my tenants and one of the buildings I manage is in a bad neighborhood so I have a lot of residents from lower socioeconomic groups in there. 

This is my process. 

2nd of the month - Rent Reminder
N-4's by the 5th-7th or so
Communication with everyone who is late.
Follow up with them 
L1's around the first week of the following month. Most people have paid up by then...

Me "Hey when are you going to pay the rent?" 
Them "I'm coming to see you on the 12th when I get paid" 
Me "Do you have a little bit to pay now?" (We have Interac in the office) 
Them " Yes" 
Me "Come on then I'll take that right now" 

Or Them "No" 
Me "Ok then I'll see you on the 12th or give the payment to the super" 

*** mark 12th on calendar

Me "Hey you said you would pay me on the 12th and I didn't see your payment" 
Them "I had to work late and I'll be down later" 

I really aim to have a very amicable relationship with my late payers. I want them emotionally bound to me so they feel bad about not paying me first. I've been in a few bad spots myself so I can really empathise with their problem of not having any money. 

In fact I have written and followed up with payment plans that last months and months. Yesterday I was speaking to a tenant who had just made a payment and emailed me about it. I thanked her and said that once she was paid up I would miss her emails.  (She's paid me over $5000 in arrears and she was ready for the sheriff) I could have evicted her but then I would have never collected that $5K. Plus she has no social problems to speak of. 

Collection is an art and the biggest prick doesn't win. If you're hurting for cash and have to pick a name out of a hat for the people to pay, I want my tenants to look at the slip and pay me first because I'm so nice. 

Ironically, I get gifts from the people I'm following up with more than anyone else. Angels from one lady and tomato sauce the other day. 

Imagine a time in your life when you were totally broke, and the stress and chaos it caused and how depressing it was. Then approach the resident from a place of compassion. *Do not talk about your problems and how your mortgage payment is hard.* Their non payment is not about you and making them feel guilty is not going to make them pay. They already feel bad. It may seem a little weird but do not take the rent payment for granted either. When they do make a payment thank them. 

This is so hard to explain properly... 

*Also do keep giving N-4's and follow up with with legal action at the same time. *

In spite of my best efforts I'm calling the sheriff this morning for two tenants.


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## jamesbe

Thanks, those are all the types of things I have done. I'm hoping come this Friday she pays up as it is her pay day.


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## the-royal-mail

Friday? That's the 2nd. Rent is due on the 1st. Why should you as landlord be concerned with her pay dates? 

Not directed at you of course but this tenant is a waste of time. The actions speak quite loudly. I hope you can evict her. This is a waste of your time to be chasing rent like this every month. You have enough issues in your own life without having to take on someone else's.


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## jamesbe

Totally agree with you. But I'm being realistic, unless she is getting money some other way than through her employment I do not realistically expect rent on the 1st if she hasn't even paid completely for February yet.


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## DanFo

I bet you feel like doing this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZomwVcGt0LE&feature=related


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## marina628

I understand what Rachelle is saying and speaking with many years of being a landlord I have never had any issues with my tenants.I have told all of my tenants though that if they are ever tight and need a couple days to pay the rent just let me know in advance.I have rent checks for entire year from each tenant and I generally take them to bank the Friday after the first.

One of my tenants went bankrupt a year after renting from us ,she came to us and told us her entire situation which she probably did not have to as she always paid her rent .She had a great job passed the credit check but owed $33,000 in tax arrears .
The royal mail have rent paid a few days late is not too bad compared to the crap that some people can do.


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## jamesbe

I'm reasonable. My previous tenant was great for 2 years then they had a baby and money got tight. But they would tell me a week before it was due that they were tight, they asked if they could pay half on the first and half at the next payday. I said fine. They did it 3 times in 2 years, no skin off my back really.

Next tenant I'm going to tell, you pay on the 1st or I will evict you, then I'll be a nice guy if they need it, not the other way around.


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## Berubeland

If you could evict people for being a few days late...more than half of my tenants would be on the street. By the 5th to 7th when I serve N-4's over 25% of my tenants have not paid rent. 

By the end of the month I will have just a couple files go to the paralegal. Most of these get paid off before eviction.


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## Uranium101

this is the main reason why I do not want to get into real estate.


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## Jungle

If it makes you feel better my tenant asked me to cash the rent cheque a day late..


Yikes. 

Would you serve n4 for one day late? This is the first time.


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## the-royal-mail

No, I would not serve an N4 for 1 day, in an isolated case.

But that highlights the rampant $ mismanagement out there in the world today. I've been through my share of financial problems and never did I let a vendor know about it. The vendors ALWAYS got paid no matter what, from my tiers and then later from credit if need be. Housing is one of the most basic needs we have. Don't play games with it. Pay the LL and take care of your own $ problems without making them take notice. Your problems should not be their problems. If things are that bad, give your 60 day notice and call the movers.


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## jamesbe

Today is the first.... peep peep. Nothing yet LOL.

Saturday ... the 3rd... I'll make a friendly phone call or pay a visit.


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## Four Pillars

jamesbe said:


> Today is the first.... peep peep. Nothing yet LOL.
> 
> Saturday ... the 3rd... I'll make a friendly phone call or pay a visit.


Not sure why you are waiting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she still hasn't paid all of February rent right? So she's a month late on that portion.

I would have been calling every second day.


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## jamesbe

Actually I think I'm going to go knock on their door today and ask for rent since it is the first. I think that would be a better message than waiting until Saturday -- snow storm is kind of a downer though.


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## the-royal-mail

I love this thread jamesbe. You should create a sig file with a link to it and the text to read: _"Thinking of buying a place to rent out? Want someone else to pay your mortgage? Here's how it works! Click here!"_

Mandatory reading for all specuvestors lurking in the RE section.


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## andyboy

I had a tenant like this once. She worked for Minto actually and dressed up the place like a demo...really nice, and a nice girl. But, she was never on time. It was a hassle dealing with the bounced cheques and chasing her down. I never did serve her any papers or notices, although she was at times 2 months behind. Eventually she moved back to her parents but not before coming to my home to settle up, plus an extra $500 for the trouble, which i refused to take, & a bottle of wine. Apparently she was off work for a lengthy period of time due to sickness. It just shows that sometimes people go through rough patches and a little compassion and understanding really do go a long way.


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## jamesbe

Well knock knock. She lost her job.

I'm suppose to get paid for Feb tonight and she promised march's rent tomorrow evening. And then I asked if this is going to continue? She said she has 2 interviews lined up, I wished her luck. Hopefully things get better.

Makes me wonder though, 2 jobs in 2 months...


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## donald

I'd say your almost forced to start terminating the agreement.She has red flags all over.Your not a social worker,bank,friend,shoulder to cry on ect.Truth is your agreement with her should be cut and dry-people like her will take your hemming and hawing as weakness not kindness and more than financial your going to be sucked emotionally each and everyday foward imo.

Your sliding into a co-dependent thing and your the victim!not her!Just my thoughts.She is hammering away at your boundries and your letting her "in"Your in a lose lose.You either have to re organize the realtionship or walk....walk.


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## Sampson

But TRM, this is not how it works.

I've been successfully collecting post-dated cheques for 4.5 years. This from multiple tenants. Never had a problem collecting rent or cashing the cheques.

Jamesbe's situation highlights the RISK associated with this type of investment, I acknowledge I'm exposed to that risk, but it hasn't bit me nor many landlords I know.

Putting your money in the bank in a POSA has risk too. CDIC insurance exists, but what happens if the government rolls over? Think Argentina circa 2000.


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## financialnoob

I also don't really understand how someone who is a month late on rent is suddenly going to come up with two months rent in two days. I hope I'm wrong on that one.

At the very least, you should have the paperwork in hand tomorrow in case she stiffs you.


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## jamesbe

Yup... Still waiting..... Takes a few hours for the payments to come usually but I better see it by tomorrow.


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## larry81

This thread is the reason why i will never rent


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## DanFo

This is why I'll stick to reit's...for now anyway


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## Uranium101

There are many people in the rent market trying to get as many months of shelter.


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## Saniokca

larry81 said:


> This thread is the reason why i will never rent


I don't understand... rent or rent out?


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## andyboy

Saniokca said:


> I don't understand... rent or rent out?



Best financial decision I ever made. Over the 10 years of being a landlord, I've had 3 great tennants and 1 crappy one. I have not missed out on a single month's rent. Nevermind the appreciation of the property, i just paid if off in Jan, and it's providing a pretty good stable cashflow. Yes, I could do just as good or better with a dividend paying stock, but I don't really have to worry about stock prices and provides a little diversification.


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## Jungle

I think the laws in Ontario are too slow for evicting tenants. TOo many steps, too many months. 

What if was like Florida where the real police Sheirff comes in with a gun and tells you to get out? They would never to that in Ontario, tenants have a right to not pay their rent and live 8 months for free!


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## jamesbe

Knee breaking time?

LOL my co-workers think I can just go change the locks and evict them. I hope she thinks that way  uninformed tenants are better LOL

Oh oh I got some monies... some...


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## orange

I think Berubeland probably has the most knowledge and experience dealing with tenants, and is generally your best source for advice on landlord-tenant issues. Her comments in this thread are great and clearly show what an excellent property manager she is...but I am going to _slightly_ disagree with the soft-glove approach in this case.

I definitely believe building a great relationship with your tenant is helpful, but when you have tens or even hundreds of units, even having 25% of them late on rent is more easily tolerated than having 100% of your single tenant being late  A larger property will be more able to scrape by on the rent received from the tenants than someone who only has a single unit.

If I recall correctly from another thread, jamesbe's property is cash-flow positive (yay! a feat in itself) but not by a huge margin (as expected), so covering the expenses of the unit when he doesn't receive rent comes directly out of his pocket _immediately_. Luckily he is clearly more financially stable than many with rental units, so he can likely handle this, but it still takes its toll and needs to be addressed in a shorter time frame.

@jamesbe - glad to hear you've gotten _some_ of the money...have you talked to her about her lack of communication?? I think, regardless of whether you plan to evict or keep her, I would address the fact that after receiving the N4 and knowing she lost her job, she didn't let you know what she would be able to give you by the deadline. Berubeland is proof that even deadbeat tenants can be saved if they COMMUNICATE...but your tenant doesn't seem to be willing to do that.

good luck!


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## jamesbe

Yup, we talked for about 20min. I stressed communication and how keeping me in the dark meant I have to be strict to protect myself, but if she could provide some communication perhaps we could work things out.

I keep my rental stuff in a separate account and do have a reserve in there so I do not need to fund that account for awhile as long as I eventually get the money. Of course if I dnt it will come out of my pocket, sucky but I can cover I just don't want to.


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## Mall Guy

orange said:


> I definitely believe building a great relationship with your tenant is helpful, but when you have tens or even hundreds of units, even having 25% of them late on rent is more easily tolerated than having 100% of your single tenant being late  A larger property will be more able to scrape by on the rent received from the tenants than someone who only has a single unit.


I agree in principle. But a larger property has higher expenses - big mortgage, higher utilities, garbage removal, insurance, property management . . .


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## Berubeland

What we are talking about here is a fundamental principle of any business. 

As a business owner of any kind it is you responsibility to have a sufficient cash cushion to insulate yourself from downturns and risks to ensure your own business viability. This includes your rental business. 

After all what would you think if you went to any store say a music store and you bought a guitar and the owner at the cash said "Whew thank god you bought that guitar now I can stay open another month" You'd think it was a bit Mickey Mouse wouldn't you? 

Or you went to the Rogers store and paid your bill and the employee thanked you because now he would get his paycheck. The facts are that lots of people pay their bills late and it's the business's job to make sure they have sufficient cash flow to keep the doors open and people paid. 

There is a risk when you only own one property that is dangerous for any business. You have just one customer that gives you 100% of the income. However if you bought the real estate prudently one could hope that you could cover the overhead of your housing services business using other income even for an extended period of time. 

When you talk buildings we do have more time to cover obligations as some of our residents will pay on time and money kind of trickles in. However; with our razor thin margins on buildings it must come in or we really cannot meet our obligations and it is impossible for anyone to put in the cash necessary to do so. 

In the one building for instance we must meet 75K per month or the owner must put in cash. Between the mortgage and property taxes and payroll and maintenance we only get what's left over after the 75K. Yes the building builds equity but that's not accessible in any real way to meet current cash requirements. 

In fact it's like the owner is responsible for giving tenants interest free loans. That's why I do work so hard to get people to make part payments and keep their arrears down even in severe arrear problems. Most tenants if they are working and willing can recover from issues such as losing a job or illness.


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## financialnoob

jamesbe said:


> Oh oh I got some monies... some...


By some, I hope you meant all. If not, I hope you at least served the papers.

Remember, the papers aren't an eviction notice. They are a notice that if they do not pay the amount outstanding, they could be evicted. It's a subtle but significant distinction.

You can still serve the papers to tenants you hope stay by paying the rent. It's just the first step in a long, long process of eviction. Even after you file the application to evict, the tenant still has time to pay before the hearing (although at that point they should be paying for the filing costs as well). 

It's a procedural thing. It does not force the tenant to leave. It simply says this is the date you must pay by, or else you must leave. All the tenant has to do is pay by said date to resolve the matter. But at least it puts that first step in the books in case you do decide to proceed.


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## jamesbe

I served those papers 10 days ago... March 8th is the due date.


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## financialnoob

Okay, glad to hear it. Hopefully it's just a bump in the road and the rest of the way is smooth.


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## jamesbe

Got it all now!


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## Berubeland

Good Work!


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## jamesbe

Drama continues, don't serve papers don't get paid. Annoying. This month I have been fed half the rent so far in small increments. So come a week from now well be behind a month grrr.

I'm going to serve the, I want you out at lease end papers, sucks I have to go threw showing the place to rent it again.

But this time the place is renovated so it shows really well.


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## Just a Guy

There is a form in the back of The Simple Solution to Canadian Real Estate Investing (www.easysafemoney.com/book/) Appendix D, that may be worth a try. Basically is changes the notice of non-payment into an contract from the tenant to the landlord. I've used it once (I don't have many evictions), not in Ontario though. These guys were chronic problems who knew the system and always did the bare minimum to keep the place. I thought, "what the heck, let's try the form..." It had my guys out in 3 days after the required notice time (as opposed to the 6 week average the judge was handing out that day).

The trick is getting the tenants to sign it, but since it's just an acknowledgement that they are in arrears, my guys did...and then they had no argument.

Well worth the price of the book.


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## Berubeland

Hi Just a Guy, 

No, you cannot do that in Ontario. Period and it's foolish to say you can. Enough landlords lose money to deadbeats in Ontario without you flogging your "OXYMORON BOOK" with bad advice. 

Landlords in Ontario have one way to evict tenants that don't pay rent. It's the N-4 form that starts the process. I wish there was a workaround. There isn't if there was all the corporate landlords would be using it. 

Also I'm tired of you linking to your book every second post. A bunch of people around here have written books and you don't see them linking it to every thread. 

Four Pillars has written a book... you don't see him saying "Hey, I was thinking about this great RESP book I read while I was planning my garage demolition. Your should go read it because it's chock full of helpful advice about RESP's 

http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/go/amazonca.php?asin=0986648906

Why don't you put the link in your signature if you want people to go go check it out?


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## Just a Guy

Not my book, sorry. I'm just a reader. Have you read it, I do value your opinion. I also liked this book http://www.amazon.com/BEST-Commercial-Estate-Investing-Written/dp/0979364604, even though I'm not Monica. The problem is no one is talking about commercial real estate.

I did say in my posting, that I didn't use the form in Ontario, and I didn't know if it would work. I have used it in Alberta, once, and it did work.

BTW, I do like your blog too, I've been reading a lot of the back posts.

For the record, I pulled up my last 40 posts in my profile. I found 3 references to the site and 2 to money sense. Not exactly every 2nd post. It does seem to apply to the real estate forum more so than others, and if you don't read the others, you probably see it more often.


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## the-royal-mail

Yes, it does seem like a lot of people are here to promote websites, books, blogs etc. Whether in a sig file or not, it's spam to keep promoting commercial products or direct people to ads.


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## Just a Guy

the-royal-mail said:


> Yes, it does seem like a lot of people are here to promote websites, books, blogs etc. Whether in a sig file or not, it's spam to keep promoting commercial products or direct people to ads.


I thought it was supposed to be a place to share ideas. I actually like seeing links to lesser known sites as it allows me to expand my thinking. I don't take everything I read as gospel, but I like to read other opinions.

I think the signature, which promotes in EVERY post, to be a lot more spammy than placing a link that is topic related into a specific post.


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## the-royal-mail

I personally treat most blog promotions as spam. There are thousands of financial blogs out there and many of them seem more interested in ad or other revenue than anything else. 

I do agree about the signature being used to spam. I have some information in my sig file but it doesn't redirect anyone away from CMF.


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## Four Pillars

I have no problem linking to articles I've done on my blog. The main reason is that if I've written something that answers a question someone has posted, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. I'd much rather just post a link.

I can also say that as a promotional tool, the benefits from this forum are very limited. If promotion was my primary goal, I'd have a much higher ROI by posting over at RFD which is more established. Or better yet - just spend time doing other more fruitful promotional tasks.


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## donaldmc

Oh well, that's really bad. That's why i avoid that kind of thing, but still it is nice that she is still paying even if she has a financial problem. Next time try to find a great tenant, those who have a stable work.


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## financialnoob

jamesbe said:


> Drama continues, don't serve papers don't get paid. Annoying. This month I have been fed half the rent so far in small increments. So come a week from now well be behind a month grrr.
> 
> I'm going to serve the, I want you out at lease end papers, sucks I have to go threw showing the place to rent it again.
> 
> But this time the place is renovated so it shows really well.


When is the lease expiring? At this point, you're one month behind and I'm guessing the income hasn't returned so I can't imagine how she's going to pay her next month either.


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## the-royal-mail

I think the tenant is playing on the OP's leniency.


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## marina628

Serve the papers tell her you are done working with her ,that you have your own budget to work with and it requires rent to be paid in full each month on time.If she senses you can afford to live with her slow pay ,she won't be in a rush to change,tell her the creditors are breathing:tongue-new: down your neck too and the sheriff will kick you both on the street :tongue-new:


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## jamesbe

Yup getting ridiculous, I'll serve again and she will pay, then we go again.

Lease ends sept 1, I'll let her know m willing to let her break the lease at this point


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## 44545

marina628 said:


> You have to protect yourself but it sounds like she was a great tenant until a specific event affected her finances.I would try to have a face to face see what her plan of action is to get her finances in order and try to work with her.


Late to the party on this one but I wanted to put in my 2-cents.

I am a tenant and have no sympathy for jamesbe's tenant.

Responsible adults have emergency funds and appropriate insurance to cover living expenses when life throws them a curve ball.

If $1,200 is too much to hack for rent, the tenant can find a place for $600 or share a place with four roommates to keep their costs within their ability to pay.

Yes, this is a hot button of mine. Bad tenants ruin it for the rest of us who pay on time.


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## jamesbe

Looking for a place in Kanata ? Lol

Agreed, what's more annoying is she has brought in two adult family members to live with her yet still can't pay, this really baffles me.

Month is almost over now, so I'll serve the papers ASAP with the required 14 days notice it means by mid may I should have all of April and all of may or a notice to leave.


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## Jon_Snow

Based upon this thread alone, landlording looks like an alternative form of hell.


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## 44545

Jon_Snow said:


> Based upon this thread alone, landlording looks like an alternative form of hell.


I've read articles in which the advice was given to avoid being a landlord and instead invest in self-storage. Why?
"If someone fails to pay for their storage unit, you keep their stuff and rent the space out to someone else."

Sounds far less risky than dealing with humans.


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## marina628

Unfortunately we usually hear about all the bad stuff and rarely anyone posts about good experiences.I own 5 rentals and I have never had any issue with tenants ,worst that ever happened is had to get the furnace serviced on a weekend and that was easy since my husband owns HVAC company.
I think we have been successful at this because we can afford to be picky ,we have $50,000 float sitting in a checking account for our rentals ,we have high equity (20-35% down on purchase) and have bought all nearly new homes.
I won't rent to anyone on welfare or on job less than 2 years.One person on lease must have a good stable job and decent credit ,that is my rule although I keep these things to myself.
There are many people looking for rentals with good credit and savings in the bank but these people will be looking for a nice home not a place in need of much repair or having to deal with tenant in a basement.I pay about $400 a year for Lawn Care to service each house ,my tenants have to water and mow the lawn and I do pay the water bills.
If I buy another rental it will be in the executive short term rental market , I know the demand is there as I just had to pay $7000 for one month to put one of our client VP in a place for May 1.Email Hydro ,GM etc and you will find a person whose job it is to find accommodations for their out of Countries partner VP ,Scientist etc.


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## jamesbe

Can't serve the papers she paid after I texted her saying I need the rest. But the first is coming fast!

Next tenant I will be pickier, she did have a good job but I have a feeling it wasn't for a long enough period, she lost it and hasn't found anything since. Odd since she is in the medical field.


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## financialnoob

You could serve different papers. File an N8 for persistently late rental payments.

On the one hand, it may piss off the tenant and they won't pay you rent anymore until you kick them out. Plus it will take a month or two to process. On the other hand, September is a long time to be chasing someone all the time.


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## jamesbe

Well I'll be giving the 60 days notice soon so September actually isn't that far away now if you think about it (just 4 months). I'll even take a hit if they leave august 31st so I can have it rented for the 1st of september which is the best time for new tenants it seems.

EDIT: Oh that is the N8 ... good stuff. I'm going to talk to my tenant first and ask what they want to do. I want them out end of lease, but I'm willing to let them leave early if they would like to.


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## jamesbe

I'm tired and busy so I served N4 and N8 today after many attempts at resolving the issue. 

Hopefully my new tenants turn out better. But I'm stuck with these until sept 1 unless they move out early.


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## Berubeland

Jamesbe you are aware that in Ontario tenants have tenure right? At the end of the lease she automatically goes month to month. Maybe she doesn't know this and you're golden but she has no legal obligation to move unless you can terminate based on continual late payment or non payment. 

The first time you go to the Landlord & Tenant Board with a continual late payer, they'll give you an order that says that she has to pay on the 1st. If and only if she breaches that order can you get a termination based on late payment. Unless she doesn't show up. 

We should get Marina to help, she's great at poker I hear... the point is if you know the law you can bluff if you're holding the cards. :02.47-tranquillity:


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## jamesbe

Yeah. But I figured I would give the N8, and hope . I filled out the N8 for continual late payment. I have feeling they were planning on leaving at lease end, because when I asked a few months ago they were pretty coy about the topic.


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## jamesbe

Well an update on this. Tenant found a job, paid the remainder of June rent like June 28th or something and then paid July rent on the 6th. Now they are fully caught up. I did serve the N8 but as we know it doesn't mean all that much. The tenant wishes to now go month to month at the end of the lease. They spent a bunch of money making the backyard nice adding grass and plants and stuff -- I wish they would have paid the rent before making the yard look pretty.......

Anyways, they want to stay so I guess I just hope they keep paying.


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## the-royal-mail

I would terminate her after end of lease for continual late payment. The 28th and the 6th is far too late. The rent is due by the 1st at the latest, preferably a few days before. She won't change. Tenant is unreliable.


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## jamesbe

You are not from Ontario are you? You can't terminate as Berubeland mentioned she has tenure, so I can ask her to leave but that's about it.


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## bigbadbull

Question: Do those forms cost anything to fill out? (N4, N8, L1,L9)


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## jamesbe

Nah, just print them from the website.


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## sharbit

Are there late fee penalties you can charge to atleast pay for your time? Though, I think this would have to have been written into the lease and may not be legal in Ontario?

Also, I have to say this was a really interesting thread.


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## Berubeland

Late fees are not legal although you can put a prompt payment discount into the lease. However; interestingly even though tons of buildings use the GTAA lease that has this prompt payment discount written into it, I've met exactly 2 tenants who have read their lease and asked for their discount. The phrasing used is clear as mud.


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## jamesbe

Ah back from the dead.

Tenant was paying, until this month. Finally got most of it today. Tenant is now leaving. The search is on for a new one. Fun fun!


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## KaeJS

jamesbe said:


> Tenant is now leaving. The search is on for a new one. Fun fun!


That's the worst part.

Absolutely horrible. Nothing stresses me out more. Except maybe 5 o'clock traffic.


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## jamesbe

Yeah but I don't have to live with mine so not too bad. As long as they seem like decent people that will pay the rent and not destroy the place. All good.

Also I'm renting near the upper end, 3 bedroom 3 bath so it tends to attract better tenants... one hopes.

Last time I put it for tender the place was a pig sty. I've since replaced all the appliances, flooring and redid the kitchen. So should be easier. I've got one guy that wants it already but not sure he qualifies.


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## KaeJS

Wow. You've replaced a lot.

I haven't replaced a single thing yet.

The only thing I've gotten is a small dent in the wall and a broken mirror. Nothing $50 couldn't fix...


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