# Target set to eat Walmart's lunch.



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

With Target opening up to 124 stores this year in Ontario and the rest of Canada, it should be interesting what happens in the next year or in the"Pricing Wars"
between Target and Walmart and the other two major players in consumer shopping..Sears, CTC and others.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wouldn't be surprised that Target opens some stores, finds the retail sales dismal, and cancels a whole bunch of store openings.

The first woman in line at the Guelph store opening had the opinion that the Target store looked pretty much like Zellers......with the Target name on everything.

That wasn't a very good review.........


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sears is in a lot of trouble. 

Though, the media I saw yesterday was as predicted: Target fell flat. Consumers (wrongly) expected Target Canada to be like Target in the US. Some comments included "It looks like Zellers".

It was overhyped...


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> With Target opening up to 124 stores this year in Ontario and the rest of Canada, it should be interesting what happens in the next year or in the"Pricing Wars"
> between Target and Walmart and the other two major players in consumer shopping..Sears, CTC and others.


 ... Target's presence would be good for consumers as an additional choice but Walmart would be hard to beat. Not a fan of either stores nor Sears nor Hudson Bay ... Eaton's and Simpsons were the best retailers in Canada - missed them, the good old days. :02.47-tranquillity:


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Has anyone shopped there before? I'll buy stuff from anywhere that is the cheapest. If they're cheaper than Wal-mart with an equal selection, they have a new customer. If they're slightly more expensive for slightly more branded goods, then it will be a harder sell. Hopefully there's a different product mix anyway. The Wal-mart near me is a full grocery store, so they'll have to compete along those lines as well.


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## Celso (Jun 5, 2012)

The last time i visited a Zellers was about a year ago. It was like i had stepped back into 1987, except all the customers were gone. It even had the typical 1980´s burger joint that every large retailer had at the time. Very creepy.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Target took over some of the Zellers stores. I'm sure that some of the merchandise that was there wasn't liquidated, so they just added some more, changed the signs
and did a facelift inside the old Zellers stores. You can't compare a low budget shopping Zellers (now Target) to a higher quality Sears or the Bay. 
It just doesn't have the same decor. I don't know what shoppers were expecting..maybe US prices for the same merchandise they sell down there?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Celso said:


> The last time i visited a Zellers was about a year ago. It was like i had stepped back into 1987, except all the customers were gone. It even had the typical 1980´s burger joint that every large retailer had at the time. Very creepy.


The Zellers in my area is closing and liquidating its stock. Store looks very tired...it was a Kmart at one time..and I think that some of the Kmart stock is still around.
It also has the burger bar. These are stores that are targetting the low budget shopper, people shouldn't expect something else.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... Target's presence would be good for consumers as an additional choice but Walmart would be hard to beat. Not a fan of either stores nor Sears nor Hudson Bay ... Eaton's and Simpsons were the best retailers in Canada - missed them, the good old days. :02.47-tranquillity:


That was 30 years ago..Beav.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Our local Zellers is closing this month......even as the closing date nears, their 'sales' hover around the '40% off' mark........which is no incentive for us to buy anything.

I presume the entire stock balance is probably pre-sold to liquidators, but I wonder why they don't, (instead of keeping the store open, paying the staff, lighting/heating/insurance, etc), just offer some 'real' reductions and unload everything.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Yes, those were the good old days. Both Eaton's and Simpsons provided excellent customer-service each and every time that my parents and I shopped there - memorable shopping experience. And Eaton's warranty policy was unbeatable.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

My issue with Zellers was how they were very pushy for me to "sign up" so they could track my purchases on their loyalty program. They also hassle you at the cash register with all sorts of "deal of the week" or "will you add a dollar to donate to charity" type stuff. They were the worst for that and lost my business as a result.

While I'm not a regular WM shopper either, at least I never get hassled with stuff like that. Step up to the cash, pay, outta there. No further sales pitches.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

doctrine said:


> Has anyone shopped there before?


Yes, plenty.

Some things are a wash, some things are more expensive. On average, things at Walmart tend to be cheaper, but only slightly. The beauty of these types of stores is the one-stop factor.

Just as Loblaws has moved into the home retail goods products, these behemoths will move into the grocery market. In the US, this has been a very strong growth component for Target - I think they will help to mature this market in Canada. I haven't seen the new stores in Canada, but in the US, the are a little nicer, and when it comes to groceries, this will make a difference. Ever walk into a Walmart Supercentre in Canada? Did you pick up the meat that was package 1000km away? Sorta gross.

If anyone is interested, we had a bit of a discussion about Target in a thread a few months back.

I own Target, I think they are poised to continue their growth, both here, but more importantly in the US.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Walmart is pushing their credit card/loyalty program now.

Also, WM typical experience for me is "step up to cash, wait 10 mins in line behind people buying $300 in groceries, pay for the 1 items you picked up".

Their multiserver express checkouts are always understaffed and have 10 minute lines. It doesn't cost a store very much to keep queues short. It's just a very poorly managed store.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Almost all the merchandise (incl. clothing) is the typical "Made in China" crap - made with cheap, exploited child labor and medieval working conditions.
I see no difference between shopping at Wal-Mart vs. Target.

The new Target stores that opened west of the GTA have a Starbucks inside them as well.

I find it ironical that consumers demand $5 T-shirts and $10 jeans, and yet are more than willing to pay $8 for a venti caramel machiato monacchio frappuchino, with low fat milk.

But hey, they can sip their $8 lattes and pretend they are shopping at _Tar*je*_


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Goods made in China are not necessarily poor quality nor made with child labour.

These days, 'cheap' apparel is being sourced from countries other than China: Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, Bangladesh... China's wages are rising quickly. They are much more productive and have the 'clusters', so they still retain much of the economic activity along with the less labour-intensive textile industry.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> 1. venti caramel machiato monacchio frappuchino, with low fat milk.
> 2. But hey, they can sip their $8 lattes and pretend they are shopping at _Tar*je*_


1. LOL, but so true! And while sipping, they are checking their FB messages on their iPhone. :highly_amused:
2. Don't you mean Tarjet? :biggrin:

I can't stand stores that carry so much garbage quality stuff, and that includes Zellers/Walmart/Winners.

*Beav:* Simpsons was my kind of store indeed!


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Hate Walmart, love Target. I spend a lot of time in the U.S., so I end up in Target buying things like kid clothing and basic toiletries (like toothpaste on the road). However, I live in dense urban Toronto; there is a Target scheduled to open on my regular grocery route and there's no Walmart in my nabe, so looks like I'll be a Target shopper in Canada as well!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Goods made in China are not necessarily poor quality nor made with child labour.
> These days, 'cheap' apparel is being sourced from countries other than China: Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, Bangladesh


I didn't mean to single out China specifically.
My concerns about child labor and working conditions apply to all the above mentioned source countries.
Bangladesh has been notorious for using child labor for the production of garments and sport shoes.
Perhaps things are improving (slowly) in recent years, but malpractices are still rampant.

As for China, there have been many recent instances of child labor being used, the most hyped case perhaps was the Foxconn factory one.

Anyhow, my point was the consumer behavior irony around demanding cheap manufactured goods vs. over-paying for other things of conspicious consumption.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> 2. Don't you mean Tarjet?


Yeah, that's what I meant.
Like MoneyGal, I have spent a lot of time in the US, but it was many years ago.
My wife and I did shop at Target at that time, but back then it was nothing to write home about (late 1990s and early 2000).

They seem to have re-invented and re-branded themselves during the mid 2000s and managed to build this hip/cool image around themselves.

I suppose hosting a Starbucks shop within their stores is part of that hip & cool branding.

All the Borders and Barnes & Noble book stores in the US used to have a Starbucks inside the store as well...doesn't seem to have done them any good :rolleyes2:


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> so I end up in Target buying things like kid clothing


We bought a tonne of our kid's stuff ('essentials' like high chairs, playard etc) from Target. Some stores have ridiculous clearance policies, I don't know if this is chain-wide, or just store-specific, but we've bought some clearance items for 60-70% off. On a $200 playard, that's great savings. We often buy groceries and snacks there when we travel.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

ça se dit tarjé je crois
my kids buy their own & i don't want to know what they pay
i try to buy vintage/thrift but tarjé is coming to my neighbourhood too


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> ça se dit tarjé je crois


Comme d'habitude, tu as raison, mais comme tout le monde n'est pas familier avec accent aigu & cédille/silent last letters, etc., why not just say Tar-Jay, or even better, *Tar-J*? 

Mr. Wonderful believes that Target will succeed in Canada. The company also wishes expansion in Latin America & other places.

Anyone interested in the stock?


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> Anyone interested in the stock?


Had my eye on this one and Costco since 2008. Was never fully confident on the US consumer spending recovery so only started a small position in 2011 in the low 50's. I'll continue to add given good opportunities. The Canada expansion could payoff, not a tonne of risk here though.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

non, it's not that hard "j" sound, as in jay bird & jaywalk.

"tarje" has the "j" part right, but the "e" sound here is wrong, we need e aigu, donc tarjé.

then there's djibouti. Alone among cmffers, probably mode is the only one who's ever been to djibouti ... unless ... maybe nemo also?


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Sampson said:


> The Canada expansion could payoff, not a tonne of risk here though.


That seems to be the sentiment. You've done very well with the stock!

I'm wondering about the expansion costs; 124 stores this year alone is rather aggressive IMO, and double that number by 2017.

*HP:* I have visited places that Nemo hasn't yet, so I'm not too *jé*alous.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think blanket opposition to child labour is a bit wrong-headed. Forbidding children to work sometimes means they go hungry/homeless, etc. I don't think they should go hungry to assuage western guilt. I think it's reasonable to expect companies to provide safe and healthy work environments, but blanket bans on child labour might do more harm than good.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

humble_pie said:


> djibouti ... unless ... maybe nemo also?


Closest I got was Aden, just across the narrow part of the Red Sea..........


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

HaroldCrump said:


> My concerns about child labor and working conditions apply to all the above mentioned source countries.
> Bangladesh has been notorious for using child labor for the production of garments and sport shoes.
> Perhaps things are improving (slowly) in recent years, but malpractices are still rampant..


As with many things. it's not always clear cut........in Ceylon/Sri Lanka and India in the early 1960s I'd encounter children deliberately maimed/crippled in order to make them more effective beggars, (feet turned upside down, legs coming out horizontally from the hips, hands turned backwards, stuff like that); the last time I was in Sri Lanka, (1985), I saw none of that, and although government crackdowns _may_ have been a factor I suspected that work 'opportunities' for the kids played a major role.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> Comme d'habitude, tu as raison, mais comme tout le monde n'est pas familier avec accent aigu & cédille/silent last letters, etc., why not just say Tar-Jay, or even better, *Tar-J*?


I could be wrong, but back when I used to live in the US, I can't recall any of the local Americans calling it Tar-J or Tarje, or anything close to it.
It was called, simply, target (the English pronunciation).

I don't believe Target as a corporation has any roots or affiliation with France or any French speaking nation.
It originated in a working middle class suburb of Minneapolis and was mostly concentrated in Minnesota and Wisconsin for many years - that is as ho-hum mid-Western American as it gets.

I think this whole French-accent was part of their re-branding and re-marketing in the mid 2000s

It is a common marketing strategy to make an otherwise mundane and banal thing sound fancy and refined.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Uh. Isn't it a joke? I'm pretty sure it's Target, pronounced as an ordinary English word, with no Frenchification of any kind. 

I also pronounce Value Village with a fake French accent (val-U vee-LAGE), and we "fancy up" "No Frills" (my neighbourhood grocery store) by calling it "Pas de Frilles," which doesn't even make sense. 

Nemo: lots of child street beggars in India in the 1980s, too, when I lived there. I actually worked for the Centre for Science and Environment in Delhi on a project with urban street dwelling kids.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> Uh. Isn't it a joke? I'm pretty sure it's Target, pronounced as an ordinary English word, with no Frenchification of any kind.
> 
> I also pronounce Value Village with a fake French accent (val-U vee-LAGE), and we "fancy up" "No Frills" (my neighbourhood grocery store) by calling it "Pas de Frilles," which doesn't even make sense.


 I here always thought the 'Frenchified' pronunciation was courtesy of Joe Kernen, et al, at CNBC.



MoneyGal said:


> Nemo: lots of child street beggars in India in the 1980s, too, when I lived there. I actually worked for the Centre for Science and Environment in Delhi on a project with urban street dwelling kids.


Child beggars yes, a fact of life, but were there as many deliberately malformed ones?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

As for the child labor/sweat shop issues, I recently finished reading Fred Pearce's book "Confessions of an Eco-Sinner: Tracking Down the Sources of My Stuff." He goes around the world visiting the places where his jeans, cellphone, computer, coffee, prawns, beans, socks, t-shirt, etc. were made or grown. It's a jaw-dropper, but he approaches it with an open mind and doesn't try to gloss over the complexities. For example, his cheap jeans were made in a sweatshop in Bangladesh where women sometimes work 120-hour weeks for very little money. But they implored him to tell his readers not to boycott their jeans because it was their only source of income (as andrewf pointed out above). Instead, they argued that people who care about this stuff should make it clear that they're willing to pay more for their jeans if it can be shown that the workers are not being exploited. Proving the lack of exploitation is very tricky, however, as countless media and NGO reports have made clear.

Similarly, after visiting farmers in Kenya who grew the fresh green beans he was buying at Marks and Spencer during the winter (Pearce is a British journalist), he decided to keep buying those beans even though flying them every day from Nairobi to London used an enormous amount of fossil fuels -- it was still less of an environmental impact than that from growing green beans year-round in Britain.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> It is a common marketing strategy to make an otherwise mundane and banal thing sound fancy and refined.


That's exactly it! Nothing more than making the store sound _Ooh La La Très Chic_! 

I actually never heard the Targè, I mean Targé pronunciation until yesterday, when Kevin was telling Dianne Buckner, that she would be shopping at Targét; we know that he's isn't going to be shopping there, LOL. 

Btw, I love their tv commercial.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

brad said:


> But they implored him to tell his readers not to boycott their jeans because it was their only source of income


What, for some, is viewed as 'exploitation' is often viewed by others as 'opportunity'........I recall talking to a young guy in Sri Lanka who had, through an agency, landed a job in Saudi.....he had to give the agency his first 6 months wages for getting him the job......and he was pleased to (be able to) do it.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> deliberately malformed ones?


Not exactly the same, but recently, I watched a program on how little children were trained to be acrobats, and it left me crying, literally! Unimaginable emotional/physical abuse. The training was simply brutal, no matter how young children were. As you said Nemo, exploitation!

What about the practice of foot-binding & endless other brutality?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i'm not sure why we would be singling out target or walmart or even dollar stores for selling goods manufactured in unspeakable conditions in asia.

if one goes up the scale of textile goods manufacturers even to the very top, their production is based in developing countries only. Last i read, a north american "manufacturer" of expensive mountain clothing & gear said he/they have to source uniquely from asian factories because, for years now, north american factories have not been able to offer the intricate, hi-quality sewing methods which their designs require.

in effect, the head office is still based in illinois but its mandate is design, marketing, distribution & admin.

i don't believe that designer names & expensive price tags mean that high quality or good working conditions are present anywhere along the production line. Take sonja rykiel, if you pull a thread the item rips faster than kleenex. Garments from dollar stores are often better made.

the American Apparel story is another questionable history.

it seems we're willing to pay for fair trade food; i believe there are fair trade cotton brands now although none seem to have yet appeared in my house. Are fair trade garments the next big thing?

& whatever happened to mending? generations of ancestors mended their clothing regularly. Now my daughter's bf throws out tube sox that are more than 3 months old, says he doesn't like the elastic feel any more. To me they seem perfectly fine.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Nemo2 said:


> What, for some, is viewed as 'exploitation' is often viewed by others as 'opportunity'.


True, but at the same time we have to understand that we're keeping those opportunities from being more than they are. Kenyan coffee growers who sell to "fair trade" marketers still don't make enough to bring themselves out of poverty, and their coffee is marked up at each step of the production and distribution process: they sell their coffee for about $1.45/pound and here in Canada it goes for $12/pound. What if we were willing to pay $24/pound and give the farmers $3/pound? They'd double their annual income, from $1,000/year (adjusted for local buying power) to $2,000/year. Still poor, but not quite as desperately poor. It strikes me as weird that I can buy a t-shirt or a pair of jeans for less today than I could in 1970.

My approach to all of this is to try to find stuff that's been ethically sourced, pay more for it, and buy less of it.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

This whole justification for child labor based on the argument that they will otherwise die of starvation must be based on the the trickle-down theory of the 70s and 80s
It was popularized by the corporations in the early days of global outsourcing, looking to reduce costs and exploit the developing countries in Asia and Africa.

It would be true if the benefit of lower cost did indeed trickle down to the adults in the family who could work full time, earn a decent subsistence wage, and be able to provide better for their families.
Employing kids at even lower wages is not the most efficient use of this trickle down theory.
Even from a pure greedy capitalist perspective it does not make sense because kids are less productive than adults anyway.

It would be better to pay the working adults in these countries a fair wage, and enable them to take care of their kids in the best possible manner.

Child labor is being exploited not because they would otherwise die of starvation, but because the _adults_ are not getting paid enough.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

HaroldCrump said:


> kids are less productive than adults anyway.
> 
> It would be better to pay the working adults in these countries a fair wage, and enable them to take care of their kids in the best possible manner.
> 
> Child labor is being exploited not because they would otherwise die of starvation, but because the _adults_ are not getting paid enough.


I'm in no way condoning child labor, just attempting to point out that things are usually way more convoluted than they appear at first glance.......factor in N. American/European union 'support' for 'fair wages in developing countries'....sounds great, marching in solidarity with World Bank protestors, altruism at its finest......except.....the unions want more money for the Asians/Africans so that the latter might price themselves out of the market, and the jobs will (they hope) 'come home'.

WRT productive children, I've heard that, because of their smaller/nimbler hands, kids are preferred in the manufacture of hand made carpets/rugs, (and yes, of course, they're paid less).

It is, has been, and always will be, an 'unfair' world.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Nemo2 said:


> As with many things. it's not always clear cut........in Ceylon/Sri Lanka and India in the early 1960s I'd encounter children deliberately maimed/crippled in order to make them more effective beggars, (feet turned upside down, legs coming out horizontally from the hips, hands turned backwards, stuff like that); the last time I was in Sri Lanka, (1985), I saw none of that, and although government crackdowns _may_ have been a factor I suspected that work 'opportunities' for the kids played a major role.


That's horrifying. I suppose I should stop being surprised by human capacity for evil, but I still am.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

andrewf said:


> That's horrifying. I suppose I should stop being surprised by human capacity for evil, but I still am.


I should, then, warn you about these pics...they're not pretty:

http://acidcow.com/pics/3660-crippled_beggars_of_india_17_pics.html


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Heaven help we someday be judged for what we had knowledge of..........but failed to act upon.

I suppose that is why I don't believe in a higher power. We would all be doomed anyways.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

brad said:


> True, but at the same time we have to understand that we're keeping those opportunities from being more than they are. Kenyan coffee growers who sell to "fair trade" marketers still don't make enough to bring themselves out of poverty, and their coffee is marked up at each step of the production and distribution process: they sell their coffee for about $1.45/pound and here in Canada it goes for $12/pound. What if we were willing to pay $24/pound and give the farmers $3/pound? They'd double their annual income, from $1,000/year (adjusted for local buying power) to $2,000/year. Still poor, but not quite as desperately poor. It strikes me as weird that I can buy a t-shirt or a pair of jeans for less today than I could in 1970.
> 
> My approach to all of this is to try to find stuff that's been ethically sourced, pay more for it, and buy less of it.


This seems like a supply chain/distribution problem. Why is the supply chain so inefficient? Bad infrastructure? Bad regulations/institutions in coffee-growing countries?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

andrewf said:


> This seems like a supply chain/distribution problem. Why is the supply chain so inefficient? Bad infrastructure? Bad regulations/institutions in coffee-growing countries?


It's not so much that it's inefficient, it's just that everyone takes their cut. There are a lot of steps from a coffee grower to your local coffee shop, and at every step along the way someone needs to make money so they add a markup. According to Fred Pearce's book, coffee is the most valuable commodity in world trade after oil. The coffee grown on Mt. Kilimanjaro goes to an auction in Tanzania, and then from there by road to Dar port, where it gets put on a ship and goes up to the UK, and then it goes to roasters and finally to the coffee shops in London.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

If middlemen are able to take large cuts, that is a result of inefficient or uncompetitive supply chains. In a competitive environment, middlemen can only cover their costs and make a small profit that covers their cost of capital. See gas stations as an example.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Little off topic but worth mentioning.I'm in arizona right now and i can't believe how good Kohl's is(esp for men's wear-top shelf....would love to seem them enter canada)dillard's is also good.I think the walmart/target is a mute debate,both are large scale operater's in the usa and both will split market share.
Canadian tire(aka mark's work warehouse,sports check ect ect)mangement their better be careful mo--the 2 big boys will be making the c-suite sweat.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

I like Target and prefer it to Walmart. I have no idea what the Canadian stores will be like but the US ones are great.

Is it cheaper than Walmart? It can be on a lot of items, but I don't think it's a true apples-to-apples comparison. I find Target stuff is much better and nicer. Even their in-house brand stuff lasts longer or is of a better quality compared to Walmart. So if you want the absolute cheapest t-shirt, you can find it at Walmart for $2 or $3 less than Target. But the cheapest t-shirt at Target will be much nicer and last longer than the cheapest t-shirt at Walmart. You can get the cheapest pair of shoes at Walmart for $5 less, but you'll find shoes you actually aren't ashamed to wear at Target for $5 more.

And the people who go to Target are much cleaner and less scary than your average US Walmart. So on an average trip, you may spend $5 to $10 more for every $200 in purchases, but it's money well spent to not have to hang out with your average US Walmart crowd.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Yeah, coffee is a bad one, but it's so yummy. Thankfully there are enough small roasters around that can source their beans in a more 'ethical' way.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

financialnoob said:


> but I don't think it's a true apples-to-apples comparison.


but you can make the comparison. Lots of things they carry are exactly the same. Pampers at WallyWorld is the same as Pampers from Targe.


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## financialnoob (Feb 26, 2011)

Sampson said:


> but you can make the comparison. Lots of things they carry are exactly the same. Pampers at WallyWorld is the same as Pampers from Targe.


Fair enough. But I just meant in terms of finding the cheapest of the cheap, as they often carry a lot of contrasting brands as well, and the cheapest of the cheap is at Walmart, though it's often quite sketchy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-23/target-cheaper-than-wal-mart-as-gap-widest-in-two-years.html

This article is about a pricing comparison between the two in the US. It shows Target taking a slight lead for the first time,, though a lot of that may have been tied to food specials relating to back-to-school and Target has openly said they are not trying to defeat Walmart. Walmart had a 2% lower rate the previous time they ran the study. Overall, not a hugely significant difference, but in terms of experience, it's night and day better at Target.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

The Americanization of Canada. US retailers moving in and the last 'icons" of merchandising disappearing..Like Zellers.
about 20 years ago..in the home improvement business, Beaver Lumber was prominent. I used to shop at Beaver Lumber and they had everything I needed.
Then they disappeared..replaced by Home Depot and Lowes. Better selection I suppose and better access to US merchandise, but other than ROna and HomeHardware stores/lumberyards, the Canadian home improvement landscape has changed significantly. 

Now "the Bay" is rebranding to "Hudsons Bay" with their coat of arms. What's going on there? Some kind of identity crisis?
...or do they want to make it more "upscale", similar to the old Eatons and Simpsons, in view of the US merchandisers and big box stores taking over.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

carverman said:


> Now "the Bay" is rebranding to "Hudsons Bay" with their coat of arms. What's going on there? Some kind of identity crisis?
> ...or do they want to make it more "upscale", similar to the old Eatons and Simpsons, in view of the US merchandisers and big box stores taking over.


We went to a Bay store a few weeks ago and walked out empty-handed, because everything was designer brands and felt very upscale. All I needed was a few pairs of socks and some briefs, but I don't want to pay extra to have some designer's name embroidered on my underwear. And they didn't carry any socks at all in my size; in fact all of their men's socks were just in one size (7-12). I ended up going to the MEC store instead and found what I wanted.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I would never in a million years think to go to the Bay for socks and underwear. Just about the only thing I'll buy there are dress pants. I'm tall and they have a large selection of unhemmed pants...


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I would never in a million years think to go to the Bay for socks and underwear. Just about the only thing I'll buy there are dress pants. I'm tall and they have a large selection of unhemmed pants...


I buy all my work clothes, socks and underwear there. Expensive, but it's just too convenient for me.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> Now "the Bay" is rebranding to "Hudsons Bay" with their coat of arms. What's going on there? Some kind of identity crisis?
> ...or do they want to make it more "upscale", similar to the old Eatons and Simpsons, in view of the US merchandisers and big box stores taking over.


As per the store's Creative Director: 'We’ve taken what is a very meaningful two-pronged approach to the redesign: maintaining our heritage while modernizing the new Hudson’s Bay Company.'

I like The Bay just fine, though I now prefer to shop in smaller stores. The one closest to me is currently being renovated & it appears that the intent is to not only give it a more modern look, but also more elegant, so I would agree with your comment about wanting a more 'upscale' look & clearly differentiate itself from Target.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Given that The Bay is owned by the same U.S. company (NRDC Equity Partners) that owns Lord and Taylor, the trend toward "upscale" seems predictable. It's been decades since I've been in a Lord and Taylor, but my faint memory is that those stores were pretty similar to what the Bay stores look like now.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I've got monkey arms: the Bay only carries dress shirts up to 35 inch sleeve length. I buy a lot of stuff online from US retailers than have 'tall' sizes.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I buy a lot of stuff online from US retailers than have 'tall' sizes.


Same here. For a while I was contemplating starting a blog or website called "Above Average," catering to tall people and providing tips on places that offer clothing and shoes but also other things like what cars tend to fit tall people best, etc. The clothing sold by most "big and tall" shops tends to be horrendous.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> As per the store's Creative Director: 'We’ve taken what is a very meaningful two-pronged approach to the redesign: *maintaining our heritage while modernizing the new Hudson’s Bay Company*.'
> 
> I like The Bay just fine, though I now prefer to shop in smaller stores. The one closest to me is currently being renovated & it appears that the intent is to not only give it a more modern look, but also more elegant, so I would agree with your comment about wanting a more 'upscale' look & clearly differentiate itself from Target.


 ... that's kind of a funny re-invention of The Bay or back to the future "Hudson's Bay Company" American-style :biggrin: ... anyhow, not my kind of store - I prefer the smaller boutiques for chic or classic clothes shopping also. For everything else (other than groceries) like home, housewares, furnishings, etc. there is Canadian Tire.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> 1. back to the future "Hudson's Bay Company"...
> 2. I prefer the smaller boutiques for chic...


1. What's the saying, 'Everything Old Is New Again'? 
2. Moi aussi, but you know, when you shop on the avenue, it can be convenient & chicER, but more expensive than Hudson's Bay as well.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> 1. What's the saying, *'Everything Old Is New Again*'?
> 
> Maybe as far as fashion..but when it comes to people, even with a few new spare parts, it's not quite the same.:biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Looks like CTC is shrinking due to Target, Walmart, and the other big box stores firmly established.
Another Canadian based company in it's "golden years". In the last few months, my local store has deteriorated with less stock, and poor service..and they
don't give you as many coupons as they used to, for in store purchases. Most stores are stocking food items and loss leaders to attract customers.
Their gas bars still give more coupons, but it's probably a matter of time until those are gone too. 
https://secure.globeadvisor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/gam/20130307/RBCANADIANTIREMALLS0306ATL

Any thoughts that the "writing is on the wall" for CTC?


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## 44545 (Feb 14, 2012)

Regarding "underpaid labour" in countries that manufacture the goods we produce, a discussion that never seems to happen is "what does a loaf of bread cost?" There's an initial shock of hearing of someone making a dollar a day in Bangladesh but if a loaf of bread only costs 2¢, they may have similar purchasing power to me making a couple hundred times that but paying $2.00 a loaf.

If you want a real page turner on this topic, pick up Ellen Ruppel Shell's "Cheap: The High Cost of Discount Culture."



Toronto.gal said:


> That's exactly it! Nothing more than making the store sound _Ooh La La Très Chic_!
> 
> I actually never heard the Targè, I mean Targé pronunciation until yesterday, when Kevin was telling Dianne Buckner, that she would be shopping at Targét; we know that he's isn't going to be shopping there, LOL.
> 
> Btw, I love their tv commercial.


FYI, the first time I heard Target referred to as "Targé" - "Targé-boutique!" more specifically, with a wink and a smile - was in 1997 when I was visiting friends in New Jersey.

I've shopped at Target in the USA and liked it, more so than Walmart. I found Target better laid out, with more appealing goods. (Kitchenaid mixers versus Walmart's cheaper brands, as one tiny example). My impression was Walmart was racing for the bottom while Target actually invested in merchandising beyond just lowest price.

Canadian Tire is dead to me. They carry a whack of their own brands and only a small selection mainstream alternatives, then price the mainstream gear way higher than anyone else to drive people to buy the house brand. Their warranty and customer service policies have been watered down, and they killed their e-commerce initiative.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

CJOttawa said:


> Canadian Tire is dead to me. *They carry a whack of their own brands and only a small selection mainstream alternatives*, then price the mainstream gear way higher than anyone else to drive people to buy the house brand. Their warranty and customer service policies have been watered down and they killed online ordering.


This what I've experienced as well. They have a lot of Chinese made cheaper goods under the Mastercraft and Shopmate brands,
Their drill bits, unless you buy name brands such as Dewalt or Irwin, are garbage, even the so called titanium coated drill bits which are
on sale a lot for just a fraction of the name brand drill bits. Use them a couple times and the steel used is so soft, you can't drill anything with them.

If I need good quality drill bits, I have to go to Lee Valley or one of the American big box stores that stock better quality shop tools.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> Maybe as far as fashion..but when it comes to people, even with a few new spare parts, it's not quite the same.:biggrin:


You always make me ROFL. :highly_amused: But true enough, though I still have all my original parts, and even the bits that have no replacement, ie: tonsils. 

Canadian retailers must all be reading *'40 Ways to Out-Innovate the Competition'.* 










Reminds me of a Paul Simon's song that I heard recently: '50 Ways to Leave Your Lover' [I had thought it was 'Lose' instead of 'Leave', LOL].


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

CJOttawa said:


> Regarding "underpaid labour" in countries that manufacture the goods we produce, a discussion that never seems to happen is "what does a loaf of bread cost?" There's an initial shock of hearing of someone making a dollar a day in Bangladesh but if a loaf of bread only costs 2¢, they may have similar purchasing power to me making a couple hundred times that but paying $2.00 a loaf.


Actually in most cases I've seen, the "dollar" is adjusted for local purchasing power. For example, current statistics on world poverty indicate that 2.5 billion people live on less than $2/day, and 1.4 billion of those live on less than $1.25/day. But those dollars are adjusted for local buying power; it's not like $2/day in Bangladesh is equivalent to $50/day in Canada: it's equivalent to $2/day in Canada. Actually I think they're adjusted to the U.S. dollar.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Also, the price of bread is bound on the lower side by the commodity price of wheat. In Canada, labour, plant/equipment, distribution/retail dominates the cost of bread. Wheat is only a small % of the input cost.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We spent a much smaller percentage of our income on food, compared to a lot of other countries. 

In some places, they work all day...........to buy enough to eat that day. 

Corporations can spin it any way they like........but the bottom line is that cheap wages have failed to bring millions more into the middle class.

China has decreed higher wages recently........in an attempt to create a domestic consumer economy.

I would have no problem with cheap labour doing more work.........if it meant lifting the workers out of poverty, but it doesn't appear to be happening.

The Foxcomm Corporation that builds Apple products.........is notorious for how badly they treat workers.

Their workers live in dormitories and are subject to be awaken at any time and ordered to work an extra 12 hour shift.

India has been raiding "illegal" child labour sweat shops........pumping out goods for Corporations. Kids as young as 7 or 8 are working there in disgusting conditions. All the corporations are doing in those instances is creating a problem for Indian authorities.

Maybe an international standard for wages........adjusted to reflect the local economies..........would be the answer.

A constant search for the lowest worldwide labour..........certainly isn't the answer.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

China has become wealthier because low wages spurred economic activity that funded their development. You start at the bottom of the value added pyramid and work your way up...


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