# We're all going to die!



## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

No, I'm not predicting the end of days, or a mass-extinction event - just stating a factual certainty. It can happen to anyone at any time, old age is not the only reason; young people have died too. The point is, that since we know there is an inevitable end to our existence, how much do you want to prepare and plan for it? 

At the high end of preparation, you can have a will where an estate administrator is named, the funeral arrangements are prepaid, and all the assets are assigned to relatives and friends. That would be a neat and tidy way to wrap things up. The named administrator would have agreed beforehand to perform this one last favor for you, know where the will is kept, where you banked, everything they'll need to know when you're no longer around to tell them.

On the other end, you can just go on thinking you're immortal, and dump it on your next of kin to unravel your affairs when you suddenly terminate. Leave them a cabinet full of utility bills from as far back as 2012, but not arranged in any particular order of chronology or billing company. Throw them some real curves, like putting your latest property tax bill inside the income tax return from the previous year; that'll show'em for not visiting you last Christmas! Be very generous to your friends and make them the beneficiary to all your private pensions and life insurance policies; you'll have the best friends that money can buy. Don't even consider that someone will have to pay to bury or cremate you; whatever CPP death benefit pays for is all you'll get.... In Ontario, a budget no-frills cremation in a cardboard box, and scatter your ashes on crown land. 

-OR- Maybe there's a middle ground that most people would find not too difficult to do...


Look at the rules of succession for the jurisdiction where you live. If you don't want your stuff to go that way, make a will.
If the succession order is O.K., make sure the next-of-kin is aware that they're going to get that phone call or police visit. 
Make sure someone knows how you want your carcass disposed of, and leave behind the funds to do it.
Put things in places where they will be easily found when you're gone. File them properly. Banking statements, investments, credit cards, debts, etc.
Do keep important documents all in one place. A safe is best, but someone will need to know how to find the key or know the combination.
Don't leave piles of keys in junk drawers that unlock apartments or houses that you moved out of years ago.
De-clutter your accumulated 'stuff'. You don't need to keep cabinets full of Tupperware that is so old it has turned a strange color and odor.

I'm sure there are lots more of things you can do to make the job of your estate administrator a little easier. The first things they will need to do is arrange your funeral, and then put a net value on your estate for taxes before anything else can be done. It will be a time when they're still possibly (or possibly not) grieving your loss. You can make it easier (or harder) for them.

So, how are you all prepared?


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

any suggestions for 60+ year old & his wife who DON'T have wills (mainly due to: a)a lifetime of procrastination, and b)a lifetime aversion to lawyers!)


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Give their heads a shake.... or a 2x4 to the side of the head. I have no sympathy.

If they are the only two alive with no apparent heirs, and their assets are relatively uncomplicated, the survivor of them will likely be the beneficiary in the eyes of the courts. It will get complicated if there are business interests in the estate.

If they both die.... well, the fight will be on by relatives. It will then take awhile to settle the estate with lawyers making a good amount of money.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

A TuBeeFor upside the head seems harsh but a stern talking to might be in order. 

Lawyers are not all bad Jargey. My advice is to ask friends and relatives for a recommendation. While you can try to do it on your own, a lawyer will prevent the type of mistakes that could pave the way for unscrupulous sorts to contest the will. FWIW, I adore my lawyer - she saves me from my own stupidity all the time and doesn't charge me too much.


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> any suggestions for 60+ year old & his wife who DON'T have wills (mainly due to: a)a lifetime of procrastination, and b)a lifetime aversion to lawyers!)


Dealt with lawyers all my life, some good, some bad, and most are fairly pricey. Because of my business relationship we got our wills done quite reasonably. After I retired it was time for them to be updated and as mentioned above i talked to my buddies and found a nice lawyer who worked out of the basement of his house and specialized in wills and the like. $500.00 for 2 wills, representation agreements, powers of attorney, etc. and thats it -done. As an aside, I shared the content of the wills with our beneficiaries (our children) and place it in a joint safety deposit box in their names. I also share my financial information with them. Simple.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

FWIW, I've never given it a thought NOT to have lawyer drawn up wills, POAs and health directives/representation agreements. 

I've done it about half a dozen times over the past 40 years (first time when we had kids). It's the thing to do to ensure asets are dispensed as one wishes without legal fights, and essential if one has under age children. Think of it as nothing more than spending money on a relatively cheap suit, or a really cheap brake job.

Added later: My executors, POAs, etc. know where my records are, key amongst them being my Will and Health Directive. To support them in their duties:
1. I have an 'important documents' Word file that lists all my financial account numbers and contact numbers, who to contact on my DB pension, which online websites to cancel proactively, and historical tax documentation and location (mostly PDFs)
2. I have documented where my Adjusted Cost Base record is for assets and where to find my Annual Trading Summaries and Trading Confirmations (mostly online PDFs)
3. I have documented all my online accounts, user names and answers to code words for passwords, albeit everything important is located in Last Pass password manager
4. Where I keep my external Hard Drive backup, notwithstanding everything is also in Cloud accounts

My principle is to be kind to those you leave behind....to sort out your affairs. It is a shitty job. Don't make it worse.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

jargey3000 said:


> any suggestions for 60+ year old & his wife who DON'T have wills (mainly due to: a)a lifetime of procrastination, and b)a lifetime aversion to lawyers!)


You can minimize the estate by making everything joint ownership, and making each other the beneficiary of RRSP/RRIF/TFSA. I don't know if it's true in every jurisdiction, but in Ontario, joint assets fall to the survivor and are not part of the estate. When the co-owner is a spouse, it's pretty cut and dry that the intent was to provide for the spouse, but there can be complications if the joint owner isn't a spouse. A case that went to the SCoC involved a woman whose father made his bank accounts joint with her so that she could pay bills if he was incapacitated. When he died, she claimed it was all hers, but her siblings claimed that the joint ownership was for convenience only, and not that the father wanted the one daughter to have it all. The SC ruled in their favor that in cases where it's not the spouse, it must be clear that joint ownership is intended as a gift rather than simply to act as an agent.

I don't know if anything could or should be done without using a lawyer, and even an accountant. They would be the best to navigate the process for the survivor, who's maybe in no emotional condition to take on the job. If, on the other hand, it's an in-law that you didn't even like, and they died in debt, then by all means hire a lawyer to file the paperwork, but do all the legwork yourself. Why spend the $400/hr the lawyer will charge you to phone all the places that need to be phoned, stand in line to return the driver's license and health card, go to the bank to pay any bills that arrive, and so on.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> any suggestions for 60+ year old & his wife who DON'T have wills (mainly due to: a)a lifetime of procrastination, and b)a lifetime aversion to lawyers!)


Why should the 60+ year old & his wife pay for the will? Why not the people who are going to get the money pay for the will & set up meeting ?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Userkare said:


> I don't know if anything could or should be done without using a lawyer, and even an accountant. They would be the best to navigate the process for the survivor, who's maybe in no emotional condition to take on the job. If, on the other hand, it's an in-law that you didn't even like, and they died in debt, then by all means hire a lawyer to file the paperwork, but do all the legwork yourself. Why spend the $400/hr the lawyer will charge you to phone all the places that need to be phoned, stand in line to return the driver's license and health card, go to the bank to pay any bills that arrive, and so on.


Most of the legwork can be done by the executor...as I have done twice. And I have done final tax returns. But I did engage lawyers to complete the probate* application and process it through the court. There are things to save money on, and things better left to a professional. Value for money.

* An executor could also prepare and steer the probate application through the courts too.... but the feedback I've had from others is that the courts often don't like 'home done' probate applications (especially last-to-die ones) and the Clerk of the Court takes extra time to ensure all the pieces are there. IOW, it can take a lot longer than one from a 'famliar to the court' lawyer who has presented many probate applications before. A key issue is often the Asset List which can be understated or incomplete and the Clerk of the Court may have long lists of questions, e.g. did the estate have frequent flyer points? Were the furnishings valued appropriately? A lawyer would normally ask all those questions when the Asset List was being put together and before it goes to the Court.


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## RussT (Jul 11, 2016)

lonewolf :) said:


> Why should the 60+ year old & his wife pay for the will? Why not the people who are going to get the money pay for the will & set up meeting ?


Actually, the beneficiaries always pay for the wills. In my view, the coffee I'm drinking right now is being paid for by my kids.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

jargey3000 said:


> any suggestions for 60+ year old & his wife who DON'T have wills (mainly due to: a)a lifetime of procrastination, and b)a lifetime aversion to lawyers!)


https://www.lawdepot.ca/contracts/l...gclid=CMSyvO63kNUCFdS1wAod2wYJxg#.WWy9gHXyu5M


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Having just went tru this stuff with my parents.

I have 3 sisters and we don't fight about stupid stuff. We are a family of freaks parents married 65 years oldest sister 43 next 42 me 39 and youngest 28-29 up to today who knows next week. lol

Mom had a stroke along with dementia so both ended up in nursing home.

M&D will is 25% to the 4 of us. Getting the POA was huge. We set up all the bank accounts in M&D and the 4 kids name. When the auction and the house sale where complete funds went into this account.

Funerals are planned and paid for. We have funds to give the exacters. We where some what lucky that my dad new he couldn't handling finances.

So when time comes all money will be just withdraw from accounts.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

AltaRed said:


> Most of the legwork can be done by the executor...as I have done twice. And I have done final tax returns. But I did engage lawyers to complete the probate* application and process it through the court. There are things to save money on, and things better left to a professional. Value for money.
> 
> * A key issue is often the *Asset List* which can be understated or incomplete and the Clerk of the Court may have long lists of questions, e.g. did the estate have frequent flyer points? Were the furnishings valued appropriately? A lawyer would normally ask all those questions when the Asset List was being put together and before it goes to the Court.


That's the part I'm currently struggling with. I will let the lawyer file for the letters of administration, but the estate tax will be based on the figures that I provide him. I don't want to defraud the government over $5 tax per $1000, but at the same time, I don't want to waste my time counting spoons and forks and empty beer bottles. The balance on the line of credit will negate the value of most of the chattels anyway.

The house was looked at by a professional AACI assessor; we'll get a number next week. The 2002 car is listed on www.vmrcanada.com for $3300. retail. Beyond that, the furniture was inherited from the parents; most of it purchased in the 1970's. There's a 'new-ish' looking mattress and a new LCD TV. I don't know what a mattress that someone laid dead on for 3 days is worth, but I can probably find a similar TV on Kijiji to come up with a value. The place was cluttered with knickknack garbage that's now in plastic bags destined for the landfill. The house insurance was a blanket policy with no value associated with the contents; no rider for any specific valuable item. The guy never earned more than $60K/yr in his life, much of which went to the Beer Store, LCBO, and Rothmans.

Is that enough diligence on my part? Just how nit-picky is the clerk of the court going to be?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

One way to tackle the value of all the household items/furnishings is to get a quote from a firm that specializes in clearing out homes....once all the garbage has been removed and sent to the landfill. Most should be able to come in and give you a written quote to 'dispose' of the household items. Use that for value of 'household goods'. Depending on the quality of the goods, you may be pleasently surprised how good it might be (quality pieces) or how low it will be (more likely in the average situation). Lawyers and thus the courts are not that picky on how right or wrong the number is provided it looks reasonable AND if one has a written quote, it is a slam dunk. The executor's job doesn't include looking for the best price for each individual item. It's about disposing of goods in a reasonable and prudent manner. 

It is what I did and used for valuation. Disposed of the garbage and got a quote for the rest. Then when it came time to dispose of the goods post-probate, I called in the company and they took care of it. They held a mini-estate sale on location and then hauled off the rest to contacts they have in the various businesses such as used goods, flea markets, etc.


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

AltaRed said: _My principle is to be kind to those you leave behind....to sort out your affairs. It is a shitty job. Don't make it worse._

My sentiments exactly. Kudos to him for being so responsible. I've also done all the things he has mentioned. My docs are in a fireproof safe and both my children have the combo. The docs consist of account info., Wills, POAs, Health Directives, computer passwords and instructions on how to access all our online accounts. The passwords are stored in my KeePass app on all 3 of my PCs. All accounts are kept current in my Quicken app which is backed up in cloud storage.

We've gone one step further however. Last year we made arrangements at the local funeral home. We pre-paid for our funeral services.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

You likely bag a lot of value in trinkets and shelf stuff. Have you heard of bidding wars.

We sold 3k of sewing stuff and another 1k of stuff like Christmas lawn ornaments and other.


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

De-cluttering is also a goal we are pursuing as time goes by.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Userkare said:


> The place was cluttered with knickknack garbage that's now in plastic bags destined for the landfill.


You never know what some of that stuff might be worth to collectors, especially if they are older items. If you absolutely don't want to deal with it, I would take it to a thrift store. Someone else might find some value in it.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

nathan79 said:


> You never know what some of that stuff might be worth to collectors, especially if they are older items. If you absolutely don't want to deal with it, I would take it to a thrift store. Someone else might find some value in it.


I'm talking about things like a drinking glass filled with marbles and another filled with wooded beads sitting on a window sill. I can't imagine anyone collecting that junk; I was surprised to find it in the home of a 67 yr old single man, never married. I think that when his mom died a few years ago, he couldn't part with any of her stuff, even her old Tupperware that the plastic had started to break down and disintegrate. Not quite a hoarder, thank God, but too much useless stuff was kept.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I just had a garage-full picked up by the auctioneer we've used for estates a couple of times in the past. Took a week to sort and cull. Not necessarily top dollar, but I have no appetite or time for kijiji and garage sales.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> I just had a garage-full picked up by the auctioneer we've used for estates a couple of times in the past. Took a week to sort and cull. Not necessarily top dollar, but I have no appetite or time for kijiji and garage sales.


Neither do executors nor is it expected of them. There are more important things to do that sort out the value of that rose patterened royal albert china set and get an individual price for it.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

When we liquidated my mother-in-laws assets, much of the "fine" furniture was too dated for the consignment furniture store and too new to be considered antique. Many other items also had little more than sentimental value. My wife had a very difficult time disposing of them. 

As was mentioned above, decluttering is the best thing you can for your kids or beneficiaries.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Tons of drinkers that like drinking glasses.

Bidding Wars is site that you list small items and people bid, the auction last 24 hrs. Everything is porch pick up so no need to be home and the drop money. My cousin is making 2-3 hundred a week.

Varge is another one more fore smaller items.

You are throwing out thousands $.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Thanks for pointing out biddingwars Oldroe.
I wonder if it gets favoured more heavily in some areas than others? I've noticed this to be the case with rentals - some areas seem to use kijiji, some rentseeker, and some the local newspaper still. 
I looked at biddingwars for the area I'm currently in and find 5 items listed in July, no bids on any of them. The prior items were posted in mid-June. So not too active here it would seem.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

We were advised by the lawyer, not to bother putting a value on household stuff for probate purposes. Just include items that had any sort of 'registry' to them i.e. vehicles, machinery, real estate. The rest (including household stuff) was to be distributed to the 5 kids. We came together and disseminated the stuff (what was unwanted by anyone was sold, given to Habitat for Humanity - got a receipt, or given to goodwill). The rest went to the dump. We got an appraisal on the house.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Oshawa and area is crazy. And I know a handicapped couple from Peterbourgh that do very well .


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## Blondelive (Sep 5, 2017)

*IMO*

well, while we're still alive. let's do what we want to do.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

If I can't take it with me I don't want to go.


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## LXG (Feb 16, 2017)

Also, if you have a major change in circumstance - marriage or living common law; divorce; separation; birth of a child; diagnosis of yourself, your spouse or your dependent; etc. review your estate documents, including beneficiaries under life insurance policies, RRSP and the like.

Even if you are OK with the person that would receive your estate under the rules of succession, it is worth it to have a will. The hoops are much simpler to jump through if there is a will. My uncle died recently and had no will (and he's a CA!). My aunt is grieving and not dealing well with the financial and estate side of things. My parents and other extended family are trying to help, but it would have been simpler if my uncle had a will.


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