# Waste of paper



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I can recall how in the early days of computers in business, people thought that eventually they would result in a 'paperless society'. Is that realistic or is it something that is always going to be another '20 years away'?

One thing I have noticed is the receipts we get handed when we buy something in a retail store. We may pay with a credit card but they still hand us a paper receipt. Why? Why not just send us an electronic receipt to our credit card account? 

Furthermore, not only do we still get a paper receipt, it is even bigger than ever. Take a look at a receipt these days and you will probably find 75% of it is not actually part of the information you need in a receipt. Often, half of it is an entry for an online survey which if you do it will give you a chance to win a prize. Other parts of it are info about 'reward points' or instructions on exchanges/refunds, etc. I'm looking at one right now that includes an advertisement for a career with the store and where to apply online for a job.

Now beyond this waste of paper and my objection to it on environmental grounds, I also have a practical objection, I have to shred all this paper. In order to protect against someone picking up some of this stuff and gleaning personal information from it, it needs to be shredded but you can't just shred the relevant lines, you have to shred the whole thing. I'm looking right now at a grocery bill that is around 30" long and approximately half of it has nothing whatsoever to do with being a receipt!

I'm thinking about starting to stand at the check-out after being handed a receipt and tearing off the parts that are non-receipt related and handing them back to the check-out clerk. Wanna start a revolt against having to empty out shredder bins so often?


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

First World problem :^P

But yes, it can be a nuisance to deal with the paper, especially when they staple the CC receipt to the store receipt. I also shred them, but really, at the end of the month, it's no more paper than two 8.5" x 11" sized sheets. You must buy a lot of stuff to fill up a shredder quickly.

If I buy something with a long warranty, I might staple the receipt inside the manual for proof of purchase date. Then, it fades to blank white after a few years, and is not even usuable as a proof.

For everything else, if I'm asked if I want I receipt, I generally say no.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I can recall how in the early days of computers in business, people thought that eventually they would result in a 'paperless society'. Is that realistic or is it something that is always going to be another '20 years away'?
> 
> One thing I have noticed is the receipts we get handed when we buy something in a retail store. We may pay with a credit card but they still hand us a paper receipt. Why? Why not just send us an electronic receipt to our credit card account?


My work mainly runs paperless (> 95%), almost all our meeting notes are electronic and have been for years, just easier to deal with.

Unfortunately paper receipts are still used as proof of purchase despite your CC getting approved. It makes for an easy check when leaving the store where an electronic version would likely make things very confusing and could be faked. Receipts are also used for advertising/surveys/rewards, the main reason you get a mile long piece of paper when you buy only a few items ... ya, it's stupid.

A far bigger paper waste is the huge bundle of mass mail flyers I get every week, they go right into the recycle bin. I've also told them twice to stop delivery but they start again once a new person takes over the route.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

cainvest said:


> ... Receipts are also used for *advertising/surveys/reward*s, the main reason you get a mile long piece of paper when you buy only a few items ...* ya, it's stupid.*
> 
> A far bigger paper waste is the huge bundle of mass mail* flyers *I get every week, they go right into the recycle bin. ....


 ... guess who was the brainchild behind this ... think outside of the box!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

cainvest said:


> A far bigger paper waste is the huge bundle of mass mail flyers I get every week, they go right into the recycle bin. I've also told them twice to stop delivery but they start again once a new person takes over the route.


The PO does not deliver unaddressed mail in one's box IF you put an adhesive sticker in there that says "No unaddressed mail". Doesn't stop the production of the flyers, but at least they don't end up in one's mailbox.

We turn down copies of receipts when it makes no difference, i.e. no warranty/proof of purchase needed. We say No to restaurants and bars and similar service establishments here. Most receipts we do get can go straight to recycle bin here.

We've signed up as much as we can to electronic/digital/PDF copies of materials. Virtually nothing comes to our mailbox any more.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> My work mainly runs paperless (> 95%), almost all our meeting notes are electronic and have been for years, just easier to deal with.
> 
> Unfortunately paper receipts are still used as proof of purchase despite your CC getting approved. It makes for an easy check when leaving the store where an electronic version would likely make things very confusing and could be faked. Receipts are also used for advertising/surveys/rewards, the main reason you get a mile long piece of paper when you buy only a few items ... ya, it's stupid.
> 
> A far bigger paper waste is the huge bundle of mass mail flyers I get every week, they go right into the recycle bin. I've also told them twice to stop delivery but they start again once a new person takes over the route.


Those big bundles of mass flyers are thrown onto driveways in a plastic bag here cainvest. I'm guessing you are referring to something similar. There is what is purported to be a local newspaper who bundle all the flyers with their ' free newspaper'. When someone is on vacation, this bundle lying in a driveway is a good indicator that no one is at home and therefore an invitation to a break-in. You can phone the 'newspaper' and tell them to stop delivery but as you say, when a new person takes over delivery, they start throwing them in your driveway again. After telling them 3-4 times to stop delivery, I got fed up and called the municipal Bylaw Enforcement Officer for our town. 

I asked what the bylaw considered to be 'littering' and was given the definition of littering as, " _the throwing, placing or depositing of refuse or debris on private property or on property of the municipality of any local board thereof without authority from the owner or occupant of such property _ I asked what the definition of 'refuse or debris' was and got this definition as being applicable, _"Industrial Waste” means any article, thing, matter or any effluent belonging to or associated with industry or commerce or concerning or relating to manufacture or concerning or relating to any trade, business, calling or occupation that appears to be waste material; _

I then asked the Bylaw Enforcement Officer if he would enforce that Bylaw if I was telling him that 'litter' was being deposited in my driveway every week by a company delivering flyers. Flyers which I did not want, had told them to stop delivering and considered to be 'litter'. I told him they specifically did not have my permission as the Bylaw referred to and I considered that to mean that when they continued to throw them in my driveway, it was in fact litter. ie. waste material. If I don't want them, what are they other than 'waste material?' He hummed and hawed before finally agreeing that yes, it was in fact litter in that case and he COULD enforce the Bylaw if I insisted. I then gave him an easier out, I asked him to call the 'newspaper' and tell them he WOULD enforce the Bylaw if I insisted, OR they could find a way to insure a new drive knew not to deliver to my driveway. I haven't had a problem for over 5 years now.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> The PO does not deliver unaddressed mail in one's box IF you put an adhesive sticker in there that says "No unaddressed mail". Doesn't stop the production of the flyers, but at least they don't end up in one's mailbox.
> 
> We turn down copies of receipts when it makes no difference, i.e. no warranty/proof of purchase needed. We say No to restaurants and bars and similar service establishments here. Most receipts we do get can go straight to recycle bin here.
> 
> We've signed up as much as we can to electronic/digital/PDF copies of materials. Virtually nothing comes to our mailbox any more.


Yes you can avoid unaddressed mail in your mailbox as you say AltaRed. Not everyone realizes that I think. Our local Post Office gives you a specific sticker to put in your mailbox.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Good tips AR and LTA, I'll try those out!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Lots of people wait for the flyers before shopping, and many people only receive the flyers they want.

Maybe it is different in other places, but if I only want the Loblaws flyer........that is all I will get.

One reason people want the flyers is so they can "price match" at stores and don't have to travel all over town to buy the specials.

Shoppers present the flyer coupons to the cashier and pay the lowest price. I don't think it would work well with online sites on a cellphone.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

sags said:


> One reason people want the flyers is so they can "price match" at stores and don't have to travel all over town to buy the specials.
> 
> Shoppers present the flyer coupons to the cashier and pay the lowest price. I don't think it would work well with online sites on a cellphone.


I hope I will never find myself taking a competitors coupon into a store so that I can save a few cents off a can of beans. That's got to be a sign of some serious financial difficulties.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> I hope I will never find myself taking a competitors coupon into a store so that I can save a few cents off a can of beans. That's got to be a sign of some serious financial difficulties.


We don't bother with price matching etc. either Userkare but I can understand people who do so for various reasons, not necessarily because of financial difficulties. You are taking a far too narrow view.

Some people see it as a kind of game they play. Some are just cheapskates but not necessarily poor. There are many reasons why some people want to receive the flyers, if there wasn't a return to the businesses using them, they wouldn't be putting them out obviously.

I have no problem with people who want flyers, getting flyers, my problem is getting them when you don't want them. There is no clear and simply way to do both unfortunately.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Userkare said:


> I hope I will never find myself taking a competitors coupon into a store so that I can save a few cents off a can of beans. That's got to be a sign of some serious financial difficulties.


For most it has nothing to do with financial difficulty...it's about not paying more for the exact same thing. Willingly paying more for the exact same product is foolish.

I know someone who won't use coupons or even step into a dollar store as a matter of principle. He thinks he's "better" than that. But it's his money to waste if it makes him feel superior to others.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Lots of people wait for the flyers before shopping, and many people only receive the flyers they want.
> 
> Maybe it is different in other places, but if I only want the Loblaws flyer........that is all I will get.
> 
> ...


I used to wait for the flyers. However, it was all or none for our flyer delivery. I choose none, and use the Flipp App. I use my phone or ipad for the cashier, and there is no problem. I started doing it about 8 or 9 years ago, and cashiers didn't know what to with the online version. Now, I take my ipad (easier for my eyes), I 'cicrle' the items (a feature on the app), and then I have them all ready on the ipad for a price match. Not a single paper needed and I have full access to the all the flyers. 



Userkare said:


> I hope I will never find myself taking a competitors coupon into a store so that I can save a few cents off a can of beans. That's got to be a sign of some serious financial difficulties.


I started price matching when I was on a mat leave and spouse was unexpectedly laid off, so things were tight. We had a lot more time than money. That was more than 10 years ago. Since then, I still price match where I can. I use an app to pre-shop all my items. I pick the store that has the overall best prices for the stuff I want to buy (Its' one of three), then I get all the things I need from there, and have the items that are cheaper for price match right near the end. I know my pricing REALLY well, so when there is a great deal, I don't buy 1 can of beans, I buy enough for the next sale, so maybe 24 (depends on the item of course). This also saves me time and money as I am not driving around to different stores, I am stocking up at the lowest price on store. 

When I was first doing this, I was saving easily over 40% on my grocery bill. Now, I don't have quite as much time. I get about 20% savings on a lot of my groceries. I send my kids to walk to the local store where its more expensive. The oldest still checks her phone sees if what they are buying (usually few items they can carry) and will get it price matched or see if there is a coupon. 

I don't know what is wrong with not paying any more than you need to.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> I have no problem with people who want flyers, getting flyers, my problem is getting them when you don't want them. There is no clear and simply way to do both unfortunately.


doesn't your muni have a by-law prohibiting delivery of junk mail to residents who place a muni-issued sticker on their front doors?

these work well in my ville. The city has such a by-law & the authorities enforce it with draconian fury, even collecting mal-delivered junk mail despite a stickered door & fining the poor publicity company whose hapless delivery courier made the error ... 

if no by-law, there's your task: get your muni to pass such a by-law


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> We don't bother with price matching etc. either Userkare but I can understand people who do so for various reasons, not necessarily because of financial difficulties. You are taking a far too narrow view.


To be clear, I don't mind saving money, or accepting loyalty rewards points with CC, Costco, or PC points, etc. But the effort to actually cut out a coupon for .25 cents on something from one store and bring it to another store to ask them to price match seems a bit desperate to me. Frankly, I would be too embarassed.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I used to wait for the flyers. However, it was all or none for our flyer delivery. I choose none, and use the Flipp App. I use my phone or ipad for the cashier, and there is no problem. I started doing it about 8 or 9 years ago, and cashiers didn't know what to with the online version. Now, I take my ipad (easier for my eyes), I 'cicrle' the items (a feature on the app), and then I have them all ready on the ipad for a price match. Not a single paper needed and I have full access to the all the flyers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup.......we have a pantry and a freezer and price match items that are good deals and we use a lot. Sometimes prices are 50% off the regular price and we stock up the pantry.

We also have a son who is always short this and that, mostly because he is used to products we buy that his girlfriend doesn't care for.

I figure from what we save on groceries, free prescriptions, waived dispensing fees and low rent from staying put for 15 years.........we drive a new car for free.

Look after the pennies and the dollars look after themselves.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Agree. But on the plus side we see to be getting more and more places asking us if we want an ecopy instead of hard copy. Our bank, library, and dentist now offer this, plus a few others. Far from enough though. We have moved as much as we can to electronic but there is lots of room for more.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> ...and have the items that are cheaper for price match right near the end.


I always put up the price matching stuff first; often the cashier needs to call a supervisor to over-ride. They can keep going and not hold up the line, waiting.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

Some people do go to extremes. check out http://forums.redflagdeals.com/toilet-paper-calculation-thread-2078163/
The time and effort that went into that boggles the mind.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

sags said:


> Lots of people wait for the flyers before shopping, and many people only receive the flyers they want.
> 
> Maybe it is different in other places, but if I only want the Loblaws flyer........that is all I will get.
> 
> ...





Retired Peasant said:


> I always put up the price matching stuff first; often the cashier needs to call a supervisor to over-ride. They can keep going and not hold up the line, waiting.


You are right, I meant front. I am a little tired today. I am usually pretty efficient with my price matching and coupons and try to do it on quieter times to not hold up anyone.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

It's easier to generate paper. 
I find that read slightly less paper products than I did in the past, but I read vastly more material than I did.
At work, we typically print out, mark up and print out again, which is a bit on the wasteful side, but paper is cheaper than mistakes.

Also electronic markup solutions are _just_ getting there, some are quite decent, but they're not quite as good as paper IMO.


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## Joe Black (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm pretty sure less paper is used now then in the past. What business today uses a paper ledger instead of software? Where I work we need to make CAD drawings, and while the final versions get printed, I don't think the majority of the intermediate revisions do. We send quotes and revised quotes via email, as well as our invoices. Our faxes come in as emails, and in most cases don't get printed. Most utility bills and financial statements have the option (and they usually encourage you) to be delivered electronically. I download at least some of my T5's instead of getting them in the mail. And think of the millions of tax forms that used to be printed every year that have for the vast majority been replaced by electronic filing.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I work in CAD & Techical work.

Some electronic solutions are getting there, but I still find checking on paper works better.

I also find that even with 2 monitors, it can be easier to print off the directions/markups/notes, and go line by line addressing them and crossing them out.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Pretty sure my department of 8 uses more paper than the entire rest of the division of 90 people combined!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Remember, the basic story was that computers and the digital age were going to do away with paper to a great degree. In fact, that has and is not happening. Here is an excerpt from a paper on the paper. 

_The Global Paper Vision’s first goal is to reduce global paper
consumption and promote fair access to paper. However, paper
use is steadily increasing, year on year, and recently exceeded
400 million tonnes per year1. More than half of this consumption
occurs in China, the USA and Japan, with a further quarter in
Europe2. The entire continent of Africa accounts for just 2%
of global paper use3. The global average is 55 kg per person
per year, while regionally the consumption of people in North
America is the highest, registering four times that (215 kg/
person)4. While paper consumption is declining slightly in North
America, it is notably rising in Asia and driving planned expansion
of the industry. More than half the paper used globally is for
packaging, with volumes on the increase5, so this sector has the
greatest opportunity for efficiency and waste reduction. This
report highlights how packaging and tissue products are driving
sector growth and require global solutions. _

Here is the paper in full: https://environmentalpaper.org/wp-c...lobalPaperIndustry2018_FullReport-Final-1.pdf

When we look around us, there are lots of examples such as the literal growth of the length of a store receipt that we can see, which indicate how companies are not reducing paper use but are instead increasing it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Good to see it's declining in North America ... wonder if the numbers include recycled paper?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Good to see it's declining in North America ... wonder if the numbers include recycled paper?


Declining in N. America doesn't mean a whole lot when we use FOUR times as much as the global average.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Declining in N. America doesn't mean a whole lot when we use FOUR times as much as the global average.


At least it's going in the right direction!

Would really need to see data related to amounts, recycled, etc over the past 20 years to get a good picture on usage.


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## Joe Black (Aug 3, 2015)

Longtimeago said:


> Remember, the basic story was that computers and the digital age were going to do away with paper to a great degree. In fact, that has and is not happening. Here is an excerpt from a paper on the paper.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


The article you quoted specifically states that the main increase is in packaging, so one infer that there is actually far less use of paper in offices then there used to be. That may not actually be as bad a thing as it sounds, since pretty much all the alternative packing materials (styrofoam, bubble wrap, plastic air bags) are far less recyclable than paper.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Joe Black said:


> The article you quoted specifically states that the main increase is in packaging, so one infer that there is actually far less use of paper in offices then there used to be. That may not actually be as bad a thing as it sounds, since pretty much all the alternative packing materials (styrofoam, bubble wrap, plastic air bags) are far less recyclable than paper.


I think you will find it you research it that the increase in packaging is primarily cardboard used in boxes to deliver items ordered online. The continuing decline of sales in bricks and mortar stores and increasing sales from online stores is the driving force in this regard. 

But just where and why paper use is increasing doesn't really matter, the point is it continues to increase. As for paper being more recyclable, that is true but again it doesn't really matter. The point then is that we continue to use more when what we should be doing is trying to use less. If all we have done is replace using paper in offices with using more in packaging/shipping and in fact increased our total usage, we have not made progress, we are continuing to LOSE ground in terms of using less.


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