# PCF 2.25% on new deposits until Dec 31, 2016 - Optimizing a joint account



## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

In case anyone wasn't aware, PCF is offering 2.25% on new deposits in non-registered Interest Plus and/or Interest First accounts from Sept 1, 2016 to Dec 31, 2016. Details here: https://www.txn.banking.pcfinancial...ancial2016RatePromotionTermsAndConditions.pdf. It looks like if you don't get the offer by email or when you log in you can call in to get it.

The situation I am in is both my wife and I had the majority of our cash in our PCF accounts at the end of August (I should have pulled the cash out before the end of August but I was enjoying the summer instead of worrying about interest rate games). She has an Interest Plus account as I do and we also have a joint Interest Plus account. The majority of our cash was in our individual accounts at the end of August.

My question is if anyone knows how existing deposits on a joint account is determined. If I enroll in the bonus interest rate offer but my wife doesn't if my wife makes a transfer from her individual account into the joint account will that deposit count as a "new" deposit for the interest rate offer?

I expect that the amount that my wife can transfer into the joint account would be about twice what we would both be able to contribute as new deposits between now and the end of the year. Also, since any new deposits my wife is able to make can go directly to the joint account we wouldn't really be losing any interest if my wife doesn't enroll in the offer. I guess in that case it is worth a shot. I wouldn't know until January if the extra interest would be earned on my wife's transfer to the joint account but we wouldn't be earning any interest on those funds anyway.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

0xCC said:


> In case anyone wasn't aware, PCF is offering 2.25% on new deposits in non-registered Interest Plus and/or Interest First accounts from Sept 1, 2016 to Dec 31, 2016.
> It looks like if you don't get the offer by email or *when you log in *you can call in to get it.
> 
> The situation I am in is both my wife and I had the majority of our cash in our PCF accounts at the end of August (I should have pulled the cash out before the end of August but I was enjoying the summer instead of worrying about interest rate games). She has an Interest Plus account as I do and we also have a joint Interest Plus account. The majority of our cash was in our individual accounts at the end of August.





> My question is if anyone knows how existing deposits on a joint account is determined. If I enroll in the bonus interest rate offer but my wife doesn't if my wife makes a transfer from her individual account into the joint account will that deposit count as a "new" deposit for the interest rate offer?


IMO, if it's a joint account, then it doesn't matter who puts in the new deposit, you or your wife. 



> I expect that the amount that my wife can transfer into the joint account would be about twice what we would both be able to contribute as new deposits between now and the end of the year. Also, since any new deposits my wife is able to make can go directly to the joint account we wouldn't really be losing any interest if my wife doesn't enroll in the offer. I guess in that case it is worth a shot. I wouldn't know until January if the extra interest would be earned on my wife's transfer to the joint account but we wouldn't be earning any interest on those funds anyway.


You should know at the end of each month when the current interest (0.8%) and the promotional interest (2.25%)
is posted to your savings acct.


BTW; I logged into PCF this morning and saw the announcement. A bit too late for me since I transferred most of my TFSA and savings (InterestPlus) to Tangerine back at the beginning of August.
The offer with Tang is for 6 months (183 days)at 2.4%. 

PCF is only offering this promotion between now and December 31st of this year.
That's only (120 days from Sept 8 to Dec 31st). IF you make a NEW deposit between now and Dec 1, you would get
2.25 % per ANNUM...provided the money was left there that long, and the promotion continued for the entire 12 months..(ie: to Sept 8, 2017), but it's only for about 120 days.



> PROBLEM:
> *You deposit $1000 into a bank account paying 2.25% simple interest per year. You left the money in for 120 days*.
> 
> How much interest do you get at the end of those 120 days?
> ...


As an example: ,. if you had $10,000 available from somewhere to use a new deposit, it would be $74.30
extra in your account after 120 days.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

I understand how the interest is calculated what I am wondering is what counts as a new deposit in a joint account if only one of the account holders registers for the 2.25% interest rate promotion.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

0xCC said:


> I understand how the interest is calculated what I am wondering is what counts as a new deposit in a joint account if only one of the account holders registers for the 2.25% interest rate promotion.


Call them and ask or read the fine print. I think the answer will be NO. It is net new money to the account holder(s), plural. Transfers from either person from another PCF account won't qualify. I recall this being discussed before either here or on www.highinterestsavings.ca


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

0xCC said:


> I understand how the interest is calculated what I am wondering is what counts as a new deposit in a joint account if only one of the account holders registers for the 2.25% interest rate promotion.



The way I see it. If it is a joint account held by husband and wife, then only ONE SAVINGS ACCOUNT NUMBER is given out,so I don't see any problem with new deposits on that joint acct whether you deposit or your wife..it's all into the same account...unless your wife decides to open her own account. Then that
would be different.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Call them and ask or read the fine print. I think the answer will be NO. It is net new money to the account holder(s), plural. Transfers from either person from another PCF account won't qualify. I recall this being discussed before either here or on www.highinterestsavings.ca


Yes, you are correct. PCF is looking for NEW deposits, not transfers on existing savings from one PCF account to another PCF acct (existing savings)
The EFT has to be done from another bank/FI or by EFT/ATM deposit to qualify, AFAIK.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

EQ just reduced rates to 2%, so PCF promo is just in time ...


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Call them and ask or read the fine print. I think the answer will be NO. It is net new money to the account holder(s), plural. Transfers from either person from another PCF account won't qualify. I recall this being discussed before either here or on www.highinterestsavings.ca


I sort of don't want to point out an area that might be a bug in their existing deposits calculation by asking the direct question and the fine print isn't clear for this case. As I mentioned in my post though I can try out an experiment and we won't miss out on any of the bonus interest since all of my wife's new deposits can just go to the joint account. So all new deposits would be collecting the bonus interest regardless of whether my wife enrolls or not.

To be clear here is a simplified version of the situation we are currently in:
My individual Interest Plus account (enrolled in 2.25% offer): $100
Joint Interest Plus account (I am primary account holder, wife is secondary, enrolled in 2.25% offer): $50
Wife's individual Interest Plus account: (NOT enrolled in 2.25% offer): $100

Obviously if I transfer my $100 from the individual account to the joint account that counts as existing funds. My question is how is my wife's $100 treated if it is transferred to the joint account AND she isn't enrolled in the 2.25% offer? From an "enrolled accounts" perspective that $100 is "new" money to the joint account since I am the primary account holder on that account and that $100 wasn't in any enrolled accounts on August 31.

Anyway, I will find out in January when the interest is paid. The worst case is that we get the interest for new deposits and not the amount she transfers to the joint account which is the same whether she enrolls or not as long as all her deposits go to the joint account.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

My guess is NO. Your wife's $100 is not new money to PCF. She is merely moving it from an existing (individual) PCF account to another (joint) PCF account. It is net new money that matters. Ask them.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

0xCC said:


> Joint Interest Plus account (I am primary account holder, *wife is secondary, enrolled in 2.25% offer*):
> Wife's individual Interest Plus account: (NOT enrolled in 2.25% offer): $100
> 
> Obviously if I transfer my $100 from the individual account to the joint account that counts as existing funds. *My question* is how is my wife's $100 treated if i*t is transferred to the joint account AND she isn't enrolled in the 2.25% offer*?


Since that $100 is already in her PCF acct, it is NOT new deposits.. Even if she enrolls in promotional interest scheme, she can qualify for any NEW deposits that are obtained from some other institution or payroll or whatever. Any money in her existing bank accts , even if transferred from one to another will still be paid at the standard 0.8%.,I would think.



> From an "enrolled accounts" perspective that $100 is "*new" money to the joint account* since I am the primary account holder on that account and that $100 wasn't in any enrolled accounts on August 31.


If any funds are transferred from either you or your wife's PCF accounts, it's still regarded as an "internal" transfer. PCF already has the money,
it doesn't matter who owns the account or which acct this money is sitting in.

It has to be "new" money transferred or deposited from outside your existing PCF savings accounts, from my thinking.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Agree with carverman and Alta, it is NOT new deposits. , yeah, there is a slight possibility that PCF has bug in the system and you will get 2.25%, but I don't believe so...
I'd better to transfer $$$ to EQ and get guarantee 2% than 0.8% in PCF


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Agree with carverman and Alta, it is NOT new deposits. , yeah, there is a slight possibility that PCF has bug in the system and you will get 2.25%, but I don't believe so...


Unlike the game of MONOPOLY where you draw CHANCE card from the pile, and find out the card says "BANK ERROR..Collect $100", it doesn't happen like that in real life. 

With the financial and software resources of CIBC (that PCF is using), it will be a long shot ( er..snowballs chance in Hell), that their computers will decide that kind of internal transfer is a "new deposit". 

Consider this flow chart for their 2.25% promotion: :biggrin:
Start: Customer registered? Yes? ................ locate all customers PCF accounts and monitor for a deposit
No -> continue paying 0.8% on existing deposits.
............................ |
Transfer from existing customers acct? 
Yes-> continue paying 0.8% on transferred amount

NO
|
transfer by EFT from another institution ? NO?................ deposit by ATM?
..................... | ........................................ YES
................... | ..................... |
................ Yes -> pay promotion interest for duration of promotion


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Agree with carverman that this is a simple flow chart (algorithm) a monkey could program... even CIBC monkeys.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> even CIBC monkeys.


 CIBC monkeys are not worse than other banks ones


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

AltaRed said:


> Agree with carverman that this is a simple flow chart (algorithm) a monkey could program... even CIBC monkeys.


While I would agree they should be able differentiate a deposit from within the institution, I believe calculation is still based on daily balances. As a result I do recall getting bonus interest that was based on my regular interest payments. It wasn't much, but it is just a thought.


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

bgc_fan said:


> While I would agree they should be able differentiate a deposit from within the institution, I believe calculation is still based on daily balances. As a result I do recall getting bonus interest that was based on my regular interest payments. It wasn't much, but it is just a thought.


I am wondering if the calculation is as simple as average daily balance of eligible accounts - starting balance. I am going to try to do my own interest calculations and see what happens in January. I will try to remember to report back here when the interest is paid out.

In the meantime if Tangerine comes out with a similar offer I will just move everything over there since we don't really have anything in our Tangerine accounts right now.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

0xCC said:


> I am wondering if the calculation is as simple as average daily balance of eligible accounts - starting balance. I am going to try to do my own interest calculations and see what happens in January. I will try to remember to report back here when the interest is paid out.
> 
> In the meantime if Tangerine comes out with a similar offer I will just move everything over there since we don't really have anything in our Tangerine accounts right now.


 But you are saying you already have a Tangerine account, so you will not qualify as a NEW client then.
However, you could call them to clarify this. 

I believe their promotion (2.4% on new money/new client is still good at least until Jan 15th. 
From what I remember their initial promotion was for 6 months back in July (15?)..so that would be around 180 days vs the recent PCF promotion for about 120 days. If your wife doesn't have an acct with them, she could considered
a new client. 



> Tangerine;
> Special offer: Earn 2.40%** interest on a Tangerine Savings Account for six months† *when you become a new Tangerine Client and open your first applicable Savings Account*. Learn more


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

carverman said:


> 0xCC said:
> 
> 
> > ... In the meantime if Tangerine comes out with a similar offer I will just move everything over there since we don't really have anything in our Tangerine accounts right now.
> ...


Where are you getting the requirement of "new client" from for the PCF promotion?

The PCF link from post # 1 that opens a PDF defines an eligible accounts as either an existing non-registered PCF Interest Plus or Interest first *and* any PCF Interest Plus savings account that opened during the offer period.

The requirement for an existing account holder is to register for the promotion.


If this PCF offer is the standard that the Tangerine offer is to match, it seems clear that both existing and new accounts should be eligible.

If the Tangerine offer does have a "new accounts only" restriction ... that is something to watch out for but then IMO, it is a significantly different offer.

Cheers


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Where are you getting the requirement of "new client" from for the PCF promotion?


 I'm not. I'm talking about the Tangerine promotion that requires you to be a new client to take advantage of their offer.



> If this PCF offer is the standard that the Tangerine offer is to match, it seems clear that both existing and new accounts should be eligible.
> 
> If the Tangerine offer does have a "new accounts only" restriction ... that is something to watch out for but then IMO, it is a significantly different offer.


Dunno...I guess you would have to call Tang to find out.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I called yesterday I was told that it's only for new deposits after Sep 1


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

carverman said:


> But you are saying you already have a Tangerine account, so you will not qualify as a NEW client then.
> However, you could call them to clarify this.
> 
> I believe their promotion (2.4% on new money/new client is still good at least until Jan 15th.
> ...


I am thinking that in the next month or so Tangerine will come out with a new offer for new deposits for either targeted accounts or for everyone. *If* that happens the current PCF accounts will be almost completely emptied and put into the Tangerine accounts.

I have also read on other forums that some people have been able to call up (or online chat) Tangerine and ask for a better interest rate. People seem to be getting between 1.6%-2% on new deposits if they get any offer.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

0xCC said:


> I am thinking that in the next month or so Tangerine will come out with a new offer for new deposits for either targeted accounts or for everyone. *If* t*hat happens the current PCF accounts will be almost completely emptied and put into the Tangerine accounts*.
> 
> I have also read on other forums that some people have been able to call up (or online chat) Tangerine and ask for a better interest rate. People seem to be getting between 1.6%-2% on new deposits if they get any offer.


I agree. I'm sure Tang will come up with a new promotion offer after Jan 15th, because frankly I don't want to keep shuffling my Savings and TFSA back to the other online bank PCF. It becomes time consuming and ridiculous if I have to continually do that.

Not sure about asking for a better interest rate.  Right now, I'm getting 2.4%. Once that promotion expires in January, I will definitely be asking for a better rate than it going back to 0.8%..that would just encourage playing the "nutshell game" shuffling my money from one FI to another and then back again. 

There definitely seems to be competition between the two.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

carverman said:


> I'm not. I'm talking about the Tangerine promotion that requires you to be a new client to take advantage of their offer ...
> Dunno...I guess you would have to call Tang to find out.


If the poster considers an offer that only applies to new accounts to be similar enough to one that applies to both existing and new account - then a phone call may be in order.

IMO ... excluding existing account makes it a different offer.


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow this is great timing... I had moved around 30k to Outlook Financial back in August (1.7% interest). Now it appears I'll get even more interest if I move it back to PCF.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I read the terms & conditions. A couple things to be aware of:

- unlike past promotions, the no-fee chequing account is not included (so balances in there don't earn bonus interest). Make sure you put the money in your Interest Plus savings account. Only the savings accounts count

- they say that money transferred from existing accounts (like chequing for example) doesn't count. I presume that means you should transfer external money directly into your Interest Plus account, and NOT through the chequing account -- as that may disqualify the amounts

- bonus interest is earned based on the average daily balance in excess of Aug 31 amount. As this is an *average*, time is of the essence ... to get maximum interest you must transfer money in ASAP, otherwise each day the different sits at "zero" the resulting average balance gets pulled downward. So it is not simply about the number of days of the new balance, keep that in mind!


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

> - bonus interest is earned based on the average daily balance in excess of Aug 31 amount. As this is an average, time is of the essence ... to get maximum interest you must transfer money in ASAP, otherwise each day the different sits at "zero" the resulting average balance gets pulled downward. So it is not simply about the number of days of the new balance, keep that in mind!


The way PCF does it, you'll get the annualized interest that they claim, regardless of how many days you have money in there, & whether you withdraw or add during the promo period.

I did this in one of the previous promos, added money to a zero balance a few days in, moved some money around a couple times, and withdrew all before the end of the promo.

I crunched the numbers and it added up to exactly the annualized interest rate advertized, to the penny.

I posted it someplace on this forum, and will dig it up sometime.

The language in the terms of contract are a little confusing, but the deal is good.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> they say that money transferred from existing accounts (like chequing for example) doesn't count. I presume that means you should transfer external money directly into your Interest Plus account, and NOT through the chequing account -- as that may disqualify the amounts


are you sure? If _ first transfered money from other bank to Checking account _ and right away transfered from checking to Saving, if won't be eligible?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think I misread that part. The text says: Promotional Interest will not be paid on existing funds that were in a President’s Choice Financial account as at August 31, 2016 and are transferred to an Eligible Account.

All I think this is saying is that if on Aug 31 you had a pile of cash sitting in a PC chequing account, you can't simply then transfer it to the savings account for promotional interest. The key point is whether the money existed within your PC banking on Aug 31.

I think I'm wrong about that thing about transferring through chequing. It seems you should be able to transfer money into chequing and then send to savings and it will still qualify. Just remember that it must be new amounts that were not previously within PC on Aug 31, and only amounts in Savings get promotional interest, so make sure you put it into Savings.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I think I'm wrong about that thing about transferring through chequing. It seems you should be able to transfer money into chequing and then send to savings and it will still qualify. Just remember that it must be new amounts that were not previously within PC on Aug 31, and only amounts in Savings get promotional interest, so make sure you put it into Savings.


I believe you have to do it through their checking acct. If they don't pay any interest on your checking acct, then you have no choice but to move any money you consider to be savings into an Interest Plus account(s). You can have as many of these as you wish since you will get a T5 slip from each one for the interest earned during the year.

All my normal monthly deposits (pension/gov't) are done through my PCF checking account. 
IF I have extra money that I don't need for my monthly expenses set aside, the rest has to go into some kind of savings, whether their interest plus savings or TFSA if I have sufficient contribution room left for the year. 

I do have an option of depositing a check (or cash)into my Interest First savings acct, (3rd savings acct), which I believe they no longer offer, then move it to one of my Interest Plus savings accts. I keep about $5 in my Interest First account, so PCF(CIBC) doesn't close it on me, if it was emptied.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> ... unlike past promotions, the no-fee chequing account is not included (so balances in there don't earn bonus interest). Make sure you put the money in your Interest Plus savings account. Only the savings accounts count ...


I was sure I'd seen this before but don't have the details handy ... [/QUOTE]



james4beach said:


> I think I misread that part. The text says: Promotional Interest will not be paid on existing funds that were in a President’s Choice Financial account as at August 31, 2016 and are transferred to an Eligible Account.
> 
> All I think this is saying is that if on Aug 31 you had a pile of cash sitting in a PC chequing account, you can't simply then transfer it to the savings account for promotional interest. The key point is whether the money existed within your PC banking on Aug 31.


That's the way it's worked before ... which is understandable as they are looking to reward net new $$$.




carverman said:


> I believe you have to do it through their checking acct ...


I am given the choice at the ATM or email transfer so I don't think there is any restriction beyond PCF not wanting to pay the bonus interest for transfers instead of net new $$$.





carverman said:


> ... If they don't pay any interest on your checking acct, then you have no choice but to move any money you consider to be savings into an Interest Plus account(s) ...
> 
> IF I have extra money that I don't need for my monthly expenses set aside, the rest has to go into some kind of savings, whether their interest plus savings or TFSA if I have sufficient contribution room left for the year.


Technically ... there's nothing that forces one to transfer from chequing into some form of savings. Because of higher interest (and for now promotional interest), I suspect a fair number of people do the transfer.




carverman said:


> ...I do have an option of depositing a check (or cash)into my Interest First savings acct, (3rd savings acct), which I believe they no longer offer, then move it to one of my Interest Plus savings accts. I keep about $5 in my Interest First account, so PCF(CIBC) doesn't close it on me, if it was emptied.


What's the feature to the Interest First that makes it worthwhile to keep open?


Cheers


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> What's the feature to the Interest First that makes it worthwhile to keep open?
> 
> 
> Cheers


There is no real feature, but I have it selected as a ATM deposit option where I can put in a check or cash and it is the only
access from an ATM, other than my checking acct for deposits.
Even on an ATM you cant be too careful. I like to keep my deposit option accounts separated from my other bank accounts for ATM access.

For ATM deposits, I have the option of depositing into my checking or a savings account, I chose the Interest first as the savings
access point for physical deposits. 

That way, if I deposit $1000 into my savings from an ATM, it stays in the Interest First until cleared by PCF,
then I can move it into my other savings accts, whichever I chose. 

If I was charged a maintenance fee to keep it active I would close it, but since they don't, I just like to keep it active. 
With some much crime going on these days, I just get nervous, and chose to do it this way.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

As far as their promotions go, I think this is a pretty good one. It's almost a full 4 months @ 2.25%... beats what I can get at my credit union. I transferred in a bunch of cash today.

Phone to double check that you're enrolled


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I think I misread that part. The text says: Promotional Interest will not be paid on existing funds that were in a President’s Choice Financial account as at August 31, 2016 and are transferred to an Eligible Account.
> 
> All I think this is saying is that if on Aug 31 you had a pile of cash sitting in a PC chequing account, you can't simply then transfer it to the savings account for promotional interest. The key point is whether the money existed within your PC banking on Aug 31.
> 
> I think I'm wrong about that thing about transferring through chequing. It seems you should be able to transfer money into chequing and then send to savings and it will still qualify. Just remember that it must be new amounts that were not previously within PC on Aug 31, and only amounts in Savings get promotional interest, so make sure you put it into Savings.


It wouldn't make sense otherwise, salaries and pension should come to Checking first and than can be transfered to Saving


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

^^^^

The other part is that with so many restrictions - I suspect it wouldn't be worth the bad press that "only direct contributions" count.


Cheers


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

Move money out of Tangerine by the end of the month! Apparently a new interest rate offer is in the works for October (as I was hoping for):

https://www.tangerine.ca/en/landing-page/specialinterestrate/index.html

I got this link from Red Flag Deals but it apparently came from HighInterestSavings.ca first (here: https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/forum/tangerine-bank/special-rate/)

There is no mention what the special rate will be. It sounds like people are getting 2.5% by calling in and asking for a better rate so I suspect it will be at least that high.

The main point is that you should move funds out of Tangerine before the beginning of October (looks like October 4 is the day the "existing" deposits will be calculated).

Edit: In case Tangerine figures out that they didn't mean to have that page viewable by everyone here is the contents of that page:


> To Get Your Special Rate:
> • On October 4, 2016, we’ll add up the balances in each of your Tangerine Savings Accounts, Tangerine RSP Savings Accounts and Tangerine TFSA Savings Accounts, to get your total balances per Account Type.
> 
> • From October 5, 2016 to December 31, 2016, you’ll earn your special interest rate on up to $500,000 in new deposits that raise your total Applicable Account Type* balances above what they were on October 4th. All other deposits will earn the applicable Posted Rate.
> ...


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just last week my 2% expired , I chatted with rep and they again gave me same 2% for next 90 days...so I trasfered almost all (except $$$ to cover MasterCard) to PCF... To tell the truth, I doubt they gonna have promo that exceeds 2.25%


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I transferred virtually all of my credit union cash to PCF a couple days ago. This is the most cash I've ever had at PCF ... I think this promo rate is really excellent


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## 0xCC (Jan 5, 2012)

As I suspected might happen the link to the special offer on Tangerine's site doesn't work anymore. I think someone probably had a very, very bad day at the office today.

I have a feeling that this offer will be a targeted offer like the last one was and have different interest rates for different people. My guess is the range of rates will be something like 1.6%-3%.


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