# Terrorists attack Washington DC



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

News developing now ... seems that armed right wing extremists have stormed the US Capitol


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

US Capitol in lock down. Armed extremists have breached the building's security and stormed the building. Members of government are being evacuated to somewhere else inside the building. *One of the terrorists is inside the chamber on the floor.*









Congress certifies Biden as next US president – as it happened


Four dead in unrest after pro-Trump mob storms Capitol




www.theguardian.com


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> US Capitol in lock down. Armed extremists have breached the building's security and stormed the building. Members of government are being evacuated to somewhere else inside the building. *One of the terrorists is inside the chamber on the floor.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fortunately they didn't ban the use of force and tear gas or other measures against rioters like they did in Portland.

The precedent was set all summer, let the rioters do their thing. Come on James, what do you want? Secret Police to round them up?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Extraordinary images from inside the building. I wonder if MAGA terrorists will burn down the government building?

Notice his QANON shirt.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Just watching live streams of news.





They said not violent and they are still calling them protestors.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> View attachment 21067


Looks like an unarmed protestor to me.

I don't approve of this, but if you can protest the Blake shooting, you can protest an incoming president.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Vice President has been evacuated from the building to protect him.

Curfew declared in Washington DC


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

They are trying to overthrow the government. This is an insurrection!

@MrMatt our resident right wing extremist is trying to pretend this is a protest on the streets - give me a break. Protesters for minority rights never tried to violently overthrow the government, nor did they storm government buildings and force govt members into hiding.

MAGA / QANON have stormed the building, are trying to overthrow the US government.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The people involved in this overthrow, including Trump and his associates, have to be rounded up and tried for treason and sedition


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They are trying to overthrow the government. This is an insurrection!
> 
> @MrMatt our resident right wing extremist is trying to pretend this is a protest on the streets - give me a break.
> 
> These guys have stormed the building, are trying to overthrow the US government.


A bunch of protestors have entered the building.
The news reports I saw said they were non violent and unarmed.

I'm not pretending it's a protest on the street, I even commented on your photo inside the building. He looked like an unarmed protestor.

I've also said I disapprove of this, and I'm glad they can still use tear gas in this jurisdiction.

yet somehow I'm the "right wing extremist"? 
For both disapproving of this specific riot, yet acknowledging ones right to peacefully protest?

I said the same thing about the protests and riots in the summer, I support the right to peacefully protest, and reject the violent riots.

I said that about BLM all summer, and I'm saying this right now about what is happening in the US capital.
My position remains EXACTLY the same.

Apparently being okay with protests, against riots, irrespective of the political position is "right wing extremism".


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They are trying to overthrow the government. This is an insurrection!
> 
> @MrMatt our resident right wing extremist is trying to pretend this is a protest on the streets - give me a break. Protesters for minority rights never tried to violently overthrow the government, nor did they storm government buildings and force govt members into hiding.
> 
> MAGA / QANON have stormed the building, are trying to overthrow the US government.


I'd also appreciate it if you didn't falsely refer to me as a right wing extremist. 
I'm very clearly a Liberal. Liberalism - Wikipedia
*Liberalism* is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Yellow is the political colour most commonly associated with liberalism.[11][12][13]


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Wow, a preview to the showdown leading to Dump's Doom Day.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I'd also appreciate it if you didn't falsely refer to me as a right wing extremist.


What can I call you man? You defend extremists who are carrying out an insurrection, who stormed the capitol building. You always stand up for the extremists (several years now) and constantly downplay what they are doing.

Insurrection in progress. Here's a rebel wearing a Trump flag like a cape. After he chased the government out of this room, he's made himself comfortable at someone's desk.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Improvised explosive device found at the capitol, IED









IED found at Capitol


Click here to view this item from khq.com.




www.khq.com





The military has to roll in now and squash these terrorists. Or are we supposed to wait for them to start blowing up government buildings, or gunning down people in the streets?

This right wing terrorism has to be stopped.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

I'm really surprised they don't have better security measures there.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Nice to see rioting is a bad thing again and support for police is back.

For up to date info from within the building this feed seems good



https://twitter.com/stillgray


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

cainvest said:


> I'm really surprised they don't have better security measures there.


Yeah, it's like they have mall cops in charge. It sure was easy to take over those guys..

ltr


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Funny how our resident right wing extremist always claimed trumpets were peaceful vs left during riots (such as BLM). Hypocrisy is rampant here.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

More images from the assault on the government building. Apparently the security consists of a couple guys with pistols?

Of course the irony in all this is that the Republicans encouraged the right wing extremists all these years. They kept fuelling them, supporting the extremists because they saw them as a support base.

And now those same extremists have turned on them.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> What can I call you man? You defend extremists who are carrying out an insurrection, who stormed the capitol building. You always stand up for the extremists (several years now) and constantly downplay what they are doing.


You could call me a Liberal, or just by my userid. But a false association is simply unfair.
I never defended extremists carrying out an insurrections. That literally never happened, this thread is 1 page long, not enough time to get confused.

I've already said, in this thread I don't approve of this action. I didn't approve when protestors took over a police station and attacked a court house, i don't approve of people taking over the capital, or engaging in sit ins at administrative offices.
But somehow, even though I was the second poster on this thread, disapproving of these acts, you falsely claim I defend them.

Note Post #3, I comment that they can still use tear gas here.
#6 I literally say "I don't approve of this, "

How is that defending them?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trump should not be allowed to leave the US.

He should be made to stand trial for treason and sedition.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> They are trying to overthrow the government. This is an insurrection!
> 
> @MrMatt our resident right wing extremist is trying to pretend this is a protest on the streets - give me a break. Protesters for minority rights never tried to violently overthrow the government, nor did they storm government buildings and force govt members into hiding.
> 
> MAGA / QANON have stormed the building, are trying to overthrow the US government.


It’s interesting how the USA government support protests/revolution/coup in other countries. And sanctions governments that try to suppress/control them. But once it is on the USA turf. Different story.


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## capricorn (Dec 3, 2013)

Let the politicians feel the heat of rioters for a moment. They were ok when rioters were taking over police stations. Now they know it is not ok for rioters to cross the police line.


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## gingymarathoner (Oct 1, 2020)

james4beach said:


> They are trying to overthrow the government. This is an insurrection!
> 
> @MrMatt our resident right wing extremist is trying to pretend this is a protest on the streets - give me a break. Protesters for minority rights never tried to violently overthrow the government, nor did they storm government buildings and force govt members into hiding.
> 
> MAGA / QANON have stormed the building, are trying to overthrow the US government.





james4beach said:


> The people involved in this overthrow, including Trump and his associates, have to be rounded up and tried for treason and sedition





james4beach said:


> What can I call you man? You defend extremists who are carrying out an insurrection, who stormed the capitol building. You always stand up for the extremists (several years now) and constantly downplay what they are doing.
> 
> Insurrection in progress. Here's a rebel wearing a Trump flag like a cape. After he chased the government out of this room, he's made himself comfortable at someone's desk.
> 
> View attachment 21068





james4beach said:


> Improvised explosive device found at the capitol, IED
> 
> 
> 
> ...





fstamand said:


> Funny how our resident right wing extremist always claimed trumpets were peaceful vs left during riots (such as BLM). Hypocrisy is rampant here.


I agree with all of these thoughts. America is losing it which tends to happen when a moron is given power and other morons follow!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

capricorn said:


> Let the politicians feel the heat of rioters for a moment. They were ok when rioters were taking over police stations. Now they know it is not ok for rioters to cross the police line.


Well the city politicians were all for the riots, and opposed Trump sending in Federal officers.
Then the rioters marched on their homes and the city politicians authorized the police to stop them

So are you suggesting now that congress has seen that riots are bad, they might also decide that riots are bad, and demand that law enforcement step up?
About time IMO.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

how was it that a WOMAN was shot? 99.9% of the mob was MEN!


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

jargey3000 said:


> how was it that a WOMAN was shot? 99.9% of the mob was MEN!


Have you seen “Elizabeth“ trending. Check it out. after getting Maced, she was asked what she was doing there. She exclaimed...”we’re storming the Capitol....it’s a revolution!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346960836003127296


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

jargey3000 said:


> how was it that a WOMAN was shot? 99.9% of the mob was MEN!


Some might call them revolutioners not mobsters.
those people still got the support of 1/2 of the Americans.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Some might call them revolutioners not mobsters.
> those people still got the support of 1/2 of the Americans.


Naw, they're a fringe, just like the BLM rioters.


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## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

MrMatt said:


> Naw, they're a fringe, just like the BLM rioters.


Big difference.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Donald Trump has been suspended from Twitter after tweeting to supporters who attacked the US Capitol.*
i Always wondered, if you are getting blocked by certain media, why on earth you wouldn’t get an account (like four years ago) from neutral company, telegram for instance.
'Nobody can block it': how the Telegram app fuels global protest.








'Nobody can block it': how the Telegram app fuels global protest


The controversial messaging app has moved huge crowds on the streets of Belarus. But who is its secretive puppet master?




www.theguardian.com


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Two bombs found by the FBI.

Trump - wants to be a dictator, loses the election and then refuses to step down. Tries repeatedly to overthrow the election.

Now he calls on his mob to rise up. They show up and terrorize the Capitol building, forcing the members of government into hiding, disrupting them from certifying the election result. They break into the Capitol building in a show of force. This is all done to overthrow the government and prevent the final certification of the election.

It's not a protest, it's not rioting ... this is an organized overthrow of the USA.

Trump must be removed from office NOW. There also has to be prosecution of those who have been rising up to overthrow the US Government.

David Frum @ The Atlantic writes: Remove Trump Tonight: "Remove this treasonous president."


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> There also has to be prosecution of those who have been rising up to overthrow the US Government.


What about the USA supported/sponsored numerous successful/unsuccessful overthrow of governments in other countries? 

6.11990s
6.1.11991: Iraq
6.1.21991: Haiti
6.1.31992–1996: Iraq
6.1.41994–1995: Haiti
6.1.51996–1997: Zaire
6.1.61997–1998: Indonesia

6.22000s
6.2.12000: Yugoslavia
6.2.22002: Venezuela
6.2.32003–2011: Iraq
6.2.42006–2007: Palestinian territories
6.2.52006–present: Syria
6.2.62007: Iran
6.2.72009: Honduras

6.32010s
6.3.12011: Libya
6.3.22015–present: Yemen
6.3.32019–present: Venezuela

United States involvement in regime change - Wikipedia


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Explanation of how this is a coup / insurrection. Not a protest... it's "using violence to stop the lawful certification of the Electoral College"









This Is a Coup


A mob has stormed the U.S. Capitol, using violence to stop the lawful certification of the Electoral College vote.




www.theatlantic.com





The Atlantic is very reputable.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> The Atlantic is very reputable.


Is it?
On 28 July 2017, Bradley sold his majority ownership of The Atlantic to Emerson Collective, which is an organization owned by multi-billionaire investor and philanthropist Laurene Powell Jobs (Jobs is a supporter of the Democratic party, The Independent reported. During the 2016 presidential election, she donated $2 million to Hillary) (the widow of former Apple Inc. chairman and CEO Steve Jobs), but with Bradley (In the 2008 U.S. presidential primaries he donated $104,300 to Hillary Clinton; Trump slammed Steve Job’s wife, Laurene Powell Jobs, after leaning the Apple founder’s widow donated at least $500k to Joe Biden’s presidential campaign.) retaining a minority ownership share.

ten minutes online search says otherwise.


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## capricorn (Dec 3, 2013)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Is it?
> On 28 July 2017, Bradley sold his majority ownership of The Atlantic to Emerson Collective, which is an organization owned by multi-billionaire investor and philanthropist Laurene Powell Jobs (Jobs is a supporter of the Democratic party, The Independent reported. During the 2016 presidential election, she donated $2 million to Hillary) (the widow of former Apple Inc. chairman and CEO Steve Jobs), but with Bradley (In the 2008 U.S. presidential primaries he donated $104,300 to Hillary Clinton; Trump slammed Steve Job’s wife, Laurene Powell Jobs, after leaning the Apple founder’s widow donated at least $500k to Joe Biden’s presidential campaign.) retaining a minority ownership share.
> 
> ten minutes online search says otherwise.





Ukrainiandude said:


> What about the USA supported/sponsored numerous successful/unsuccessful overthrow of governments in other countries?
> 
> 6.11990s
> 6.1.11991: Iraq
> ...


The outrage in canada and US is always selective. It never matters that hundreds of thousands were killed in Iraq and Libya on one pretext or another by our oh so enlightened and progressive leaders. 
For purely selfish reasons I much prefer US to have the veneer of respectability even if they are rotten to the core. Maybe the time has come for the people to assert themselves. And not let Military industry complex run the government by proxy.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

We know Trump's tweets certainly inspire his supports to rally but who was it that actually did the organizing of today's insurrection?

Why was the Washington Police presence so sparse even after the warning from the Mayor? Why were the barricades so flimsy? Who knew that the Congress security guards were unarmed? (Reminder that security in the Parliament Building in Ottawa was armed and did kill an intruder.) Why wasn't the Congress building protected like the White House is? Some insider must have known.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The death toll from the Trump / MAGA insurrection is now up to 4 people, according to Forbes.

One woman was shot by police and 3 other deaths were medical emergencies.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> We know Trump's tweets certainly inspire his supports to rally but who was it that actually did the organizing of today's insurrection?
> 
> Why was the Washington Police presence so sparse even after the warning from the Mayor? Why were the barricades so flimsy? Who knew that the Congress security guards were unarmed? (Reminder that security in the Parliament Building in Ottawa was armed and did kill an intruder.) Why wasn't the Congress building protected like the White House is? Some insider must have known.


I haven't been able to find the tweets.
Apparently he said
The election was stolen
We love you
Go home

I see nothing wrong with protests. I think they're dumb, but go ahead.
I was also the FIRST person on this thread to say I disapprove of these actions. I assume James also disapproves, but I don't know if it's the illegal acts, or just the initial protests that are unacceptable to him.

I believe and have stated, repeatedly, that there is a distinct difference between peaceful protests and unacceptable riots.
It is clear to me that Trump did encourage protests, and it is completely acceptable for any person or politician to encourage and participate in peaceful protests.

I do not and have not endorsed violence. I was clear in my disapproval of the US riots in the summer, I've been clear in my disapproval of the unlawful entry into federal buildings today.

That being said, does anyone actually know what Trumps tweets said? I haven't seen a complete list of tweets, just textual summaries.
Do they actually cross the line from encouraging a protest (legal and ok) to inciting illegal acts (not ok)


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Well I found one of the tweets.
Honestly seems a bit stupid, calling out the one person who can actually remove you from office.

I'm glad I'm not Pence, if he takes out Trump he'll alienate those allies, and some Democrats have called for prosecution of the Trump administration.

He'll be (mostly) alone, with a LOT of enemies.











I'd really love it if someone could find the full string of tweets.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> I'd really love it if someone could find the full string of tweets.











Donald Trump Deleted Tweets Twitter | Factbase


A searchable database of all tweets that Donald Trump has deleted from his twitter feed.




factba.se




Try this.




__





Politwoops






projects.propublica.org


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Donald Trump Deleted Tweets Twitter | Factbase
> 
> 
> A searchable database of all tweets that Donald Trump has deleted from his twitter feed.
> ...


Thanks.
So it looks like one tweet (which I found and posted)

Honestly I don't see how anyone can say he encouraged that behaviour.
So what he has concerns with the election, and he's angry that it's going foward. That's fair. Not particularly productive or useful, but it IS a valid position.

It doesn't actually seem like he encouraged any illegal acts.
In fact he literally said the opposite in that same series of tweets.









I actually think it's almost embarrasing, for a guy who constantly says stupid stuff, people seem to have to make up things that he didn't even say.

Just to reiterate (because I've been accused of the opposite so many times)
I approve of the protests
I disapprove of the illegal entry into the building and disruption of the election process.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

fstamand said:


> Funny how our resident right wing extremist always claimed trumpets were peaceful vs left during riots (such as BLM). Hypocrisy is rampant here.


 .. and will continue as such. Nothing improves.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Reports are that the woman who was shot and killed when climbing through the window of the door, was trying to enter the area where VP Mike Pence was in.

Reports are the Secret Service shot her as she climbed through the window. She was an Air Force veteran with a young child and gave up her life for someone (Trump) that couldn't care less about her. What was she doing there and trying to breach an area where Secret Service agents had their guns drawn ?

Trump and his son Don Jr. encouraged the mob descend on the Capital building. Ivanka Trump tweeted the mob were "patriots".

Even conservative media is calling them a violent mob and blasting Trump for inciting a riot and insurrection.

White House advisors say Trump has gone full blown mental breakdown now. He is ranting and raving all day and nobody can talk any sense to him. They say he is out of control and they are afraid of what he might do in the remaining days.

Congressional leaders called on the National Guard to protect the capital, but Trump refused to send them in. VP Mike Pence ordered in the national guard.

Pence, Pelosi, Schumer and some cabinet members have discussed how to remove Trump, but there doesn't appear to be a legal way to do so quickly.

Imagine that..........the Constitution doesn't offer any way to remove a raving lunatic from the Presidency.............unbelievable.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

sags said:


> .the Constitution doesn't offer any way to remove a raving lunatic from the Presidency.............unbelievable.


False. There are at least two ways. Invoke 25 (which could be done today) or impeach (which could take a few weeks). Here’s 25. They won’t do it (yet) since it will likely cause further violence. 


Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department[note 1] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Well, MrMatt previously posted that Trump "should" be leaving and the realDTrump himself "tweeted" there will be an orderly transition of leadership ...

Until I see that "actually" happening (aka DTrump take steps outside of the WH and not returning ever, even he has to exist from the backgates) on "live" broadcasted news for the entire world to see, then I'll believe it. 

Or the alternative show is having the SS/military remove him. That would be a spectacular sight/show.

Add: I think Pence woke up and is smelling the coffee ... his boss is a nutcase.


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## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

What happened yesterday in Washington DC was deplorable. It was motivated to validate one mans ego. I have no issue with peaceful protests. The storming (yes peacefully) of the capital was inappropriate. The out come to the USA was a 1 day delay in the certification of the new president. 'All-in-all' - it had virtually no actual impact. Uncle Sam will press on and follow the process and not jeopardize the 'Rule of Law'. Glad its over and that Biden was certified.

I have to compare though to the BLM/defund Police movement (over the summer), BLM had more riots than protests. The riots with BLM/defund Police were also destructive to the USA. The problem here is that people were hurt. Store owners would return to their 'shop' after a protest to find it utterly destroyed. This is a disgrace! When innocent people are hurt I have a real problem with it. Dr. King would not have supported many of the 'planned events' for the BLM/defund Police movement.

I also have to speak to the media. I felt that the media coverage condoned the BLM/defund Police behavior we saw over the summer. There was no real condemnation for what we saw happening. Media's coverage was more along the lines of 'Why would this be happening'? Where yesterday, media simply condemned events.

Another point I have to make is that BLM/defund the Police and storming the capital are all done to make political points. Its not about 'the people', the population feel they are involved but really they are being used! Politicians, Trump & Biden you should be ashamed of yourselves! How PACs and special interest groups can be allowed to incite riots is beyond me and I find myself ashamed to be an American !

To all the Americans that have been in riots in the last year, you are not American and you are hurting the country! Stay home.

To the Politicians that behind the scenes have allowed or condoned riots, you are not American and you are hurting the country! Stay home.

To the warped media (Left and Right) in America, you should be ashamed of yourselves. You are going to wreck our country! Knock it off !

To the rest of us. We live an a country with some weirdos. We have to put up with them. Be strong and level headed, and put faith in the general 'Rule of Law', don't get too caught up in the static. My fear is that division in America will increase over time. How sad....


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

hfp75 said:


> I also have to speak to the media. I felt that the media coverage condoned the BLM/defund Police behavior we saw over the summer. There was no real condemnation for what we saw happening. Media's coverage was more along the lines of 'Why would this be happening'? Where yesterday, media simply condemned events.


This was my first thought when I saw how the media covered this and I thought back to how they covered the left wing marxist BLM burning of Portland that went on for weeks and they actually seemed to be cheering them on. But anything to do with Trump is covered in a totally different way.

ltr


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> This was my first thought when I saw how the media covered this and I thought back to how they covered the left wing marxist BLM burning of Portland that went on for weeks and they actually seemed to be cheering them on. But anything to do with Trump is covered in a totally different way.
> 
> ltr


Absolutely.
They deleted the tweets, then claimed that Trump was inciting, when he was literally telling them to respect law enforcement and made calls for "no violence".

The news literally reported the opposite.

I don't trust the media, go to the actual sources as much as possible, see for yourself.


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## kcowan2000 (Mar 24, 2020)

I liked CNNs portrayal of Trump as a grifter. I truly think it got out of control and Trump was unsure what to do. I don't consider him mentally defective. Sadly he knows what he is doing! Although not religious, he is following the evangelical approach.

Just two more weeks and not enough time to punish him.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Why comment on Trump's deleted tweets if you never read them ? They are reproduced by people on Twitter........for those interested in looking for them.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

This mob scene was not a protest and never was planned that way. It was Trump who told the protestors to go to the Capital buildings.

People who continue to embarrass themselves to defend Trump are a sad bunch.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The media created the Trump phenomena because they thought it would draw in eyeballs. All the networks would interrupt their normal programs because Trump "called in". Trump was given center stage by the Republicans at the debates and preferential treatment.

Nobody took him serious. He was an entertaining joke. He couldn't possibly win the Republican nomination....let alone the Presidency.

Even Trump didn't expect to win. He was shocked and Melania wept. Trump didn't win the election.........Clinton lost it.

The Republicans saw an opportunity to make Trump their "useful idiot" to lower taxes for the wealthy, eliminate environmental laws, drill for oil, bash immigrants, and appoint judges.

The Republicans thought they could control Trumpism. They failed to heed the old Chinese proverb.........

*Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers from which they dare not dismount,* *And the tigers are getting hungry. *


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The Republicans created this, and were fuelling it as recently as Tuesday. The party has lost all legitimacy.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

sags said:


> The Republicans thought they could control Trumpism. They failed to heed the old Chinese proverb..


Because the Chinese really understand democracy, let's take their advice.

ltr


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Both the Chinese and US systems are failures.

A Parliamentary system is a better form of democracy.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

These far-right terrorists had brought gear to take hostages in the Capitol building.

These aren't protesters. They stormed the government to overthrow the election process (on the certification day), they planted bombs, forced government members into hiding, and came prepared to take hostages. They are insurgents and terrorists.

They have cells operating in Canada too, for example the Qanon guy who tried to assassinate Trudeau this summer. He brought a whole bunch of guns to Ottawa. Meanwhile, these insurgents in DC brought bombs and guns to DC to overthrow the government.

Right wing extremists are a huge danger right now. I've been warning about this for the last ~ 3 years as I watched them training in the US before my eyes. These same guys that attacked the US capital yesterday were training and conducting dry run exercises where I lived in the US for years. They do this all in plain sight, are friends with police in fact ... the police are very sympathetic to them.


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## capricorn (Dec 3, 2013)

james4beach said:


> These far-right terrorists had brought gear to take hostages in the Capitol building.
> 
> These aren't protesters. They stormed the government to overthrow the election process (on the certification day), they planted bombs, forced government members into hiding, and came prepared to take hostages. They are insurgents and terrorists.
> 
> ...


Were they so incompetent that even with all this training and sympathy from police, they achieved nothing.. I sense bit of hyperbole here.
Right wing, left wing, rioters, terrorist etc. Etc.. the biggest crooks were inside the capitol hill. Hopefully they got fear of God in them that people wo elected them have the power to take what is entrusted to representatives. Behave like representatives rather than rulers.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

If y'all are wondering why there weren't much police or security to stop them, let me spell it out for you.

US intelligence and police don't care about white, far right extremists. It's a blind spot, because so many who work in these agencies themselves are white conservatives. When you see the kinds of things @MrMatt and @capricorn posts (how he equates these terrorists with regular protesters) you will understand why police & intelligence also fail to understand these people are a threat.

When I was living in the US, I saw terrorists training right before my eyes. I mean, the same dudes who just planted bombs in DC and stormed government to take hostages. These same guys were running weapons drills through my city, taking up sniper positions on rooftops, marching around in fatigues with weapons, screaming for the overthrow and collapse of the US Government -- ALL IN PLAIN SIGHT.

Police didn't care, in fact the police usually assisted these militias. They call them "brother".

That's why police and intelligence were unprepared for yesterday's assault on the government. There are some people within the FBI and DHS who are fully aware of this massive threat, but remember that Trump/Republicans also suppressed those agencies to stop them from doing their jobs.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> These far-right terrorists had brought gear to take hostages in the Capitol building.
> 
> These aren't protesters. They stormed the government to overthrow the election process (on the certification day), they planted bombs, forced government members into hiding, and came prepared to take hostages. They are insurgents and terrorists.
> 
> ...


Face it, there are protestors, and there are rioters, they are two distinct sets of behaviours.

Even in this case, everyone from the President, Donald Trump himself, on down said stop and don't do this.
Nobody condones these actions.
I don't see Ted Cruz out there standing off against riot police like politicians did during the BLM riots.

There might be right wing extremists, but these ones don't have the political support of the left wing extremists.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Even in this case, everyone from the President, Donald Trump himself, on down said stop and don't do this.


Wrong. Trump explicitly told them to march on the Capitol, in a speech earlier that day (or maybe the day before). He even said he would march with them.

After they planted bombs in DC, forced the government into hiding, and came ready to take hostages ... Trump told them "we love you, you're special".

Trump has been commanding the insurgency and attempted coup. They need to prosecute him, and of course, the Republicans who were also trying to illegally overthrow the government of the USA. This group.... Trump, half of Republicans, and MAGA terrorists, were in a coordinated attempt to overthrow the legally and democratically elected US government.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Wrong. Trump explicitly told them to march on DC, in a speech earlier that day (or maybe the day before). He even said he would march with them.
> 
> 
> > Your claim doesn't counteract mine.
> ...


Can you show that the comment was directed at those planning violence (which he explicitly directed against), as opposed to those who showed up for the protest?

Face it, Trump is a whole bunch of things, but nobody has presented evidence that he incited anything.

It is COMPLETELY acceptable to march and protest a government decision you don't agree with, or even to protest a decision you do agree with, or even imaginary things that only exist in your wildest fantasy.

Again, to reiterate the point I have been making since the riots this summer
Peaceful Protest => OK
Violence => NOT OK


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Violence => NOT OK


Unless this violence is outside of the USA and instigated by the US government. Then it’s okay, because it’s different.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Unless this violence is outside of the USA and instigated by the US government. Then it’s okay, because it’s different.


I disagree with you on that as well.
I don't think violence is appropriate in most circumstances, particularly in politics.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^^ I didn't know that "storming" the Capitol building is considered a "protest"? And bringing gears, guns, bombs, and the-likes would help shed a peaceful one? 

Now that there are 4 reported dead .. so much for a "non-violent" "protest called on by the current "P".O.T.USA. How embarassing to say the least. January 20th, 2021 can't come soon enough.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ^^ I didn't know that "storming" the Capitol building is considered a "protest"? And bringing gears, guns, bombs, and the-likes would help shed a peaceful one?
> 
> 
> > Outside is a legitimate protest, I don't think anyone here has suggested going inside, or bringing weapons is appropriate.
> ...


4 dead, yeah
1 by law enforcement
3 medicals

None by the rioters/protestors.


Now I'm sure you're going to try and twist it around, but basically nobody thinks the building breach, or violence is acceptable.
I support the right of BLM and MAGA to peacefully protest.
I don't support violence by either group.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> I disagree with you on that as well.
> I don't think violence is appropriate in most circumstances, particularly in politics.


I was sarcastic.


----------



## capricorn (Dec 3, 2013)

> When you see the kinds of things @MrMatt and @capricorn posts (how he equates these terrorists with regular protesters) you will understand why police & intelligence also fail to understand these people are a threat.


The only threat I see is to the people who have milked the system to benefit themselves. This genie is out of the bottle now. We can label them terrorist but people will take power when the system fails them. Insurrection, for sure. This won't be the first time in history.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is serious discussion on invoking Article 25, but it is a difficult and time consuming process.

There is also a problem that the Trump administration has a lot of "acting" Cabinet members who aren't sworn in by the Senate, so it is uncertain if they have any power to be part of the process of removing the President.

There are also a number of cabinet members resigning, and there may not be enough left to invoke the 25th Amendment. It isn't an easy or quick solution.

White House advisors and staff are saying that Trump has gone insane and was watching the riots and raving and ranting and encouraging the violence.

Trump refused to enact the National Guard and didn't concern himself at all about the safety of VP Pence and his family who were locked up and being protected by Secret Service from protestors smashing on the door to the area. Today Trump's schedule is to give awards to some golfers.......seriously.

It is increasing looking like action must be taken that falls outside the boundaries of the Constitution.

Trump should be arrested immediately and removed from office. The discussions on the Constitutional legality can be sustained later and may involve the SCOTUS.

This is a national crisis........a crisis that has risen to heights never before experienced.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The FBI is making arrests already. They have identified many of the rioters and they include leaders of the Proud Boys, and some militia or terrorist groups.

Those who incited the violence are also criminally culpable........for State and Federal charges. A lot of people are going to be facing serious felony charges.

I expect it may involve members of the Trump administration, the Trump family, people like Rudy Giuliani and Trump himself.

Round them all up.......and let justice prevail.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Reports are that they've charged dozens of rioters for this incident so far.

Good.

Now lets hope they don't drop them, like they did for the protests over the summer.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/prosecutors-drop-many-rioting-charges-as-dozens-charged-in-dc-protests-appear-in-court/2020/06/01/b581d5d2-a38b-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yada, yada, yada......right wing conservatives are now claiming the Trump mob was a "false flag" attack perpetrated by liberals to make Trump look bad. 

What a bunch of idiots. Sometimes I wonder how they manage to wipe their own butts.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> 4 dead, yeah
> 1 by law enforcement
> 3 medicals
> 
> None by the rioters/protestors.


 ... you said it was a "non-violent" "protest" and yet still 4 dead ... of one was a Trump supporter I read ... duh. Now you label it as a "riot" ... what were the insurrecting-wannabes "rioting" on? Definition of "riot" from Merriam Webster dictionary (should be legit):

*



Definition of riot

Click to expand...

*


> _(Entry 1 of 2)
> 1a*: *a violent public disorder specifically *: *a tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled together and acting with a common intent
> b*: *public violence, tumult, or disorder
> 2*: *a random or disorderly profusion the woods were a riot of color
> 3*: *one that is wildly amusing the new comedy is a riot_


Now don't tell me that it fits definition #3.




> Now I'm sure you're going to try and twist it around, but basically nobody thinks the building breach, or violence is acceptable.


 ... why am I twisting it (other than your usual attempt to)? I didn't say you approved the building breach / violence was acceptable. I merely questioned your interpretation (?) of yesterday's event (the storming/building breach) as a "protest". 


> I support the right of BLM and MAGA to peacefully protest.
> I don't support violence by either group.


 ... there you go again. I think the more you state that you "don't support violence" or the right of either groups to "protest" when the "actions" of one of the group clearly contradicts your statement indicates you say one thing, but mean another.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... you said it was a "non-violent" "protest" and yet still 4 dead ... of one was a Trump supporter I read ... duh. Now you label it as a "riot" ... what were the insurrector-wannabes "rioting" on? Definition of "riot" from Merriam Webster dictionary (should be legit):


"it"
I was refering to a number of things as non violent.
For example, the news reports at the time I made the comment.
The specific photo that James posted.

As far as the 4 dead.
3 were medical issues, not directly attributed to violence.
1 was by law enforcement, within the building, again I've addressed that those in the building were, in my opinion, not legitimate peaceful protestors.



> Now don't tell me that it fits definition #3.


naw, looks more like #1.
_1a*: *a violent public disorder specifically *: *a tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled together and acting with a common intent_



> ... why am I twisting it (other than your usual attempt to)? I didn't say you approved the building breach / violence was acceptable. I merely questioned your interpretation (?) of yesterday's event (the storming/building breach) as a "protest".
> ... there you go again. I think the more you state that you "don't support violence" or the right of either groups to "protest" when the "actions" of one of the group clearly contradicts your statement indicates you say one thing, but mean another.


I've already stated IN THIS THREAD, that the illegal entry into the buildings was not a peaceful protest.

Those that simply marched and whined that they didn't like the results of the election, without violence, without weapons and without committing any crimes, were fairly described as protestors.

Again, you seem to want to put me into a box that I'm simply not in. I think it's interesting that the points are generally already addressed by me previously in this thread.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The riot was never intended to be a peaceful demonstration. The marching orders from Great Leader Trump just before they stormed the Capital.


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## hfp75 (Mar 15, 2018)

capricorn said:


> Right wing, left wing, rioters, terrorist etc. Etc.. the biggest crooks were inside the capitol hill. Hopefully they got fear of God in them that people wo elected them have the power to take what is entrusted to representatives. Behave like representatives rather than rulers.



Agreed, it is a Govt for the people... left - center - right all of us... when you see lefty policies enacted it is not for all people... same goes for right wing policies... we need to stay focused in the center !!!!!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The "center" is where liberals are already positioned.

Conservatives want to move the "center" further to the right.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

hfp75 said:


> Agreed, it is a Govt for the people... left - center - right all of us... when you see lefty policies enacted it is not for all people... same goes for right wing policies... we need to stay focused in the center !!!!!


There is not much of a center.
We have a far left and a far right.

Look here, Liberals are smeared as far right, or even alt right.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Even in this case, everyone from the President, Donald Trump himself, on down said stop and don't do this.
> Nobody condones these actions.


Trump issued a Rorschach statement. He did say 'stop, don't do this' but in the same 1 minute statement said that the election was stolen by evil people. Trump, as he often does, makes some covering statements to defend himself from egging on extremists while also fanning the flames. He speaks incoherently, but there is a method to his madness.

Here is his fill statement from yesterday afternoon. I bolded his incendiary comments and italicized his calming comments.

------------------------------

I know your pain. I know you’re hurt. *We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election, and everyone knows it, especially the other side.*
_But you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great people in law and order. We don’t want anybody hurt. It’s a very tough period of time._
*There’s never been a time like this where such a thing happened where they could take it away from all of us — from me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election.*
But we can’t play into the hands of these people. _We have to have peace. So go home._ We love you. You’re very special. You’ve seen what happens. *You see the way others are treated — that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel,* but _go home and go home in peace._


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Trump issued a Rorschach statement. He did say 'stop, don't do this' but in the same 1 minute statement said that the election was stolen by evil people. Trump, as he often does, makes some covering statements to defend himself from egging on extremists while also fanning the flames. He speaks incoherently, but there is a method to his madness.
> 
> Here is his fill statement from yesterday afternoon. I bolded his incendiary comments and italicized his calming comments.
> 
> ...


Assuming that's the correct order, and I have no reason to dispute it, I see why you call it a Rorschach statement.

It's also a sandwich technique statement, good/bad/good, good/bad/good.

You can see it as a sophisticated call for violence, carefully crafted and wrapped into language to anger people.
Or you can see it as an attempt to acknowledge the emotions of those who feel they were wronged.

Myself, I don't think Trump is all that sophisticated.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ A real life Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde played by President Dump and Mr. Trump?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

He had one job: calm down people who were at a boil. Any normal person would make a simple, clear, and unambiguous message to call for calm. He mixed the message, which for someone who is angry, is basically an endorsement.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> He had one job: calm down people who were at a boil. Any normal person would make a simple, clear, and unambiguous message to call for calm. He mixed the message, which for someone who is angry, is basically an endorsement.


If you accept the premise that there was unfair, widespread and systematic election manipulation to result in a particular result, you'd be upset too.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> The FBI is making arrests already.


The authorities are treading dangerous water there, trump still has large support among Americans, Americans with guns and ammunition. I don’t they would have enough cells for every trump supporter. If trump really gets pissed off anything can happen.


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## capricorn (Dec 3, 2013)

I am surprised Trump is still president. I thought he would be escorted out after the events yesterday. He overplayed his hands. Hopefully he learnt something in the process and will ride into sunset quietly now. To control this level of chaos is beyond his ability.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

capricorn said:


> I am surprised Trump is still president. I thought he would be escorted out after the events yesterday. He overplayed his hands. Hopefully he learnt something in the process and will ride into sunset quietly now. To control this level of chaos is beyond his ability.


I'm actually shocked how reasonable his "incitement" tweets were.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trump's AG Barr denounced Trump. Biden's AG can't hardly wait to let the hounds loose.......release the Kraken of all Krakens.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

It's possible that the terrorist attack on DC was meant to provoke a response. The game plan might be to spark reactions to this (such as widespread protests and backlash from citizens) and *then* use that as a rationale to declare martial law, and seize power.

This story isn't over at all and I'm wondering what Trump's next move will be, to grab power. He certainly does command a rather large army of insurgents and terrorists.

He is the rebel commander / head of the insurgency / terrorist leader.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Trump should start his own party, breaking the circuit of “big two”.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)




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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The law on destroying Federal property was just updated by Trump a few months ago......due to the statue events.

Now it is a 10 year prison term. Trump likely put supporters in prison for 10 years........LOL.

Oh.....the irony.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Looks like gonna to be another casualty from the non-violent protest/riot at the Capitol:

Capitol Police Officer Reportedly On Life Support After D.C. Riot (UPDATED)



> ._.. Capitol Police did not immediately respond to HuffPost’s request for comment. *The department said Thursday that its officers had been attacked with metal pipes, chemical irritants and other weapons when a mob of President Donald Trump’s supporters violently stormed the Capitol. ..*_*. *


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt can no longer apologize away the deaths that happened yesterday as being police on civilians or natural causes.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

capricorn said:


> I am surprised Trump is still president. I thought he would be escorted out after the events yesterday. He overplayed his hands.


"Overplayed his hand" is putting it very mildly. The man commanded a "MAGA" rebel group to violently overthrow the US Government. They likely planted bombs as well, and the bombs were live (and dangerous). A total of 5 people died during the insurgent attack.

Trump, as the commander of the insurgency, committed treason. This adds to his treasonous acts of just a few days ago (the Georgia phone call), where he was attempting to forcibly change the result of the legal election -- that's also an attempt to overthrow the government. In this escalation, he actually sent violent insurgents.

Vanity Fair has an amazing report out of the White House. It seems that the White House attorney -- THEIR lawyer -- is warning employees who work around Trump to avoid Trump for legal reasons.

...some West Wing staffers panicked that they were possibly becoming participants in a coup to overthrow the government. “What do I do? Resign?” one nervous White House staffer asked a friend on Wednesday afternoon, shortly after news broke that a woman had been shot and killed inside the Capitol. The West Wing staffer told the friend that *White House Counsel Pat Cipollone* was urging White House officials not to speak to Trump or enable his coup attempt in any way, *so they could reduce the chance they could be prosecuted for treason under the Sedition Act*. “They’re being told to stay away from Trump,” the friend said.​


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> MrMatt can no longer apologize away the deaths that happened yesterday as being police on civilians or natural causes.


There is no "apology"

I'm simply echoing the news, when some unfortunate person suffers a heart attack, that isn't necessarily violence.

Just because I'm trying to sort the facts from the hysteria, you seem to think I'm a defender of this activity, while I was literally the first person in the thread to voice my disapproval of these actions.


Heck we've got james suggesting this is a false flag attempt to overthrow the government.

It's weird that people simultaneously claim Trump is an unhinged maniac and capable of sophisticated conspiracies'.
Maybe he's just a toddler throwing a tantrum?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> Looks like gonna to be another casualty from the non-violent protest/riot at the Capitol:
> 
> Capitol Police Officer Reportedly On Life Support After D.C. Riot (UPDATED)


 ... Police officer dies after pro-Trump mob attack on US Capitol


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> There is no "apology"
> 
> I'm simply echoing the news, when some unfortunate person suffers a heart attack, that isn't necessarily violence.
> 
> ...


 ... perhaps Trump is not capable of producing sophisticated conspiracies but has definitely become an unhinged maniac with no respect for the laws or the presidential oath he took: "_I do *solemnly swear (or affirm)* that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, _*preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.*"

MrMatt's downplay of a sedition by the current (still) POTUS is a "74/75 year old toddler throwing a tantrum" ... unbelievable. Or maybe it's believable for people who believes in the MAGA cult.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... perhaps Trump is not capable of producing sophisticated conspiracies but has definitely become an unhinged maniac with no respect for the laws or the presidential oath he took: "_I do *solemnly swear (or affirm)* that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, _*preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.*"
> 
> MrMatt's downplay of a sedition by the current (still) POTUS is a "74/75 year old toddler throwing a tantrum" ... unbelievable. Or maybe it's believable for people who believes in the MAGA cult.


What "sedition"?
Really, did you even read the tweets? 
He calls for non-violence, and tells people to go home
YOU KNOW THIS

It really boggles my mind that for someone so horrible, who's done so many bad things, you keep making up stuff.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> What "sedition"?
> *Really, did you even read the tweets?
> He calls for non-violence, and tells people to go home*
> YOU KNOW THIS
> ...


 ... did you read the tweets BEFORE he told people to go home? 'cause he (we?) loves them? I guess you do cherry-pick to come up with your own narrative and then go accusing others of making things up ... do you need a mirror too?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... did you read the tweets BEFORE he told people to go home? 'cause he (we?) loves them? I guess you do cherry-pick to come up with your own narrative and then go accusing others of making things up ... do you need a mirror too?


The tweets were reposted here, in full by another user.
He acknowledges that they were wronged, but they should respect law enforcement.

That's EXACTLY what a good leader should do, acknowledge the pain and injustice, and tell their followers not to commit violence.

Honestly this is what the leaders should have been telling their followers during the summer riots.

That being said, it isn't helpful when the leaders are pushing false narratives.
Like election fraud, or there was no justice for Floyd, or whatever.
Remember these "leaders" are trying to use these mobs to benefit themselves.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> The tweets were reposted here, in full by another user.
> He acknowledges that they were wronged, but *they should respect law enforcement.*
> 
> That's EXACTLY what a good leader should do, acknowledge the pain and injustice, *and tell their followers not to commit violence*.


 ... kinda late for that after the "fact" of "riling his followers to an insurrection that followed with violence." Or is it the norm of a "good" leader to speak from both sides of his mouth. Only this case is worst, the USA either got a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde as President (good explanation) or that of a Mob Leader (real explanation).



> Honestly this is what the leaders should have been telling their followers during the summer riots.


 .. there goes the twisting again ... summer riots and this was a winter protest, right?


> That being said, it isn't helpful when the leaders are pushing false narratives.
> Like election fraud, or there was no justice for Floyd, or whatever.


 .. another twist and make up ... election fraud. By VP Mike Pence officially certifying Biden's win (fair and square landslide), are you saying VP Mike Pence is a fraud too?



> Remember these "leaders" are trying to use these mobs to benefit themselves.


 ... this I'm 100% in agreement with you. Only that you didn't mention the mobs (aka the MAGA followers) don't have a brain of their own too see this, the "benefit" is for Trump only (plus his underdog cronies. A selective group.) Not for the nation.

Since Trump wants to remain president so badly, I suggest he go buy an island and declare himself as president for life as United Trump of America (or some super-ego inflating name) there and allow his MAGA cronies to follow and serve him there.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... kinda late for that after the "fact" of "riling his followers to an insurrection that followed with violence." Or is it the norm of a "good" leader to speak from both sides of his mouth. Only this case is worst, the USA either got a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde as President (good explanation) or that of a Mob Leader (real explanation).


Both sides? I don't think he ever called for violence and has consistently denounced it.



> .. there goes the twisting again ... summer riots and this was a winter protest, right?


No there were protests and riots all summer and there was a protest and a riot in the Capital.



> .. another twist and make up ... election fraud. By VP Mike Pence officially certifying Biden's win (fair and square landslide), are you saying VP Mike Pence is a fraud too?


No, I literally said that the claims of election fraud were a false narrative.


> ... this I'm 100% in agreement with you. Only that you didn't mention the mobs (aka the MAGA followers) don't have a brain of their own too see this, the "benefit" is for Trump only (plus his underdog cronies. A selective group.) Not for the nation.


of course the mobs don't have a brain of their own.
MAGA is as useful to Trump as BLM us useful to the Democrats.
Or the Global warming extremists.

It's great to have a mindless mob who just follows you, it's to their benefit to keep them ignorant and emotional.

Of course sometimes it spins out of control, like it did here, like it did all summer long.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The FBI is offering a $50,000 reward for the identification and conviction of the people who put pipe bombs in Washington.

All the US intelligence and police forces are pouring over pictures and video to identify members of the Trump mob.

The police are considering the death of the police officer as a homicide. Lots of charges will be laid for assaulting police, resisting arrest, and other charges.

Just for entering and ransacking the Capital building carries a 10 year prison term, and the FBI are already tracking those people down.

And their leader.......Trump, doesn't care about any of them, including those who were killed or severely injured.


----------



## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Not a fan of the Liberals or Trudeau in particular and never voted for him, but I'm very pleased to see his statement.

"What we witnessed was an assault on democracy by violent rioters, incited by the current president and other politicians," he said during an address outside his residence at Rideau Cottage. 
.....................................................................................................
Canada and other countries should put Trump, his family and his plane on a no fly list. In the run up to the 2016 election when there were still many running for the Republican nomination, I told my Canadian and Americans friends, many who thought and some who continue to think Trump is great, that if elected he would be the most dangerous person in the world. Sadly I was more_ right_ (as in correct) than even I thought I would be.

One terrorist died by gun shot Wednesday. Terrorists whether attacking the Capital building, or looting and burning in other demonstrations should be similarly dispatched. There's bad people on both sides.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> Not a fan of the Liberals or Trudeau in particular and never voted for him, but I'm very pleased to see his statement.
> 
> "What we witnessed was an assault on democracy by violent rioters, incited by the current president and other politicians," he said during an address outside his residence at Rideau Cottage.
> .....................................................................................................
> ...


I'm disgusted by those same comments.
Nobody has shown this alleged incitement.

Now I know that Trudeau has to butter up the incoming administration, but it's embarrassing. His comments only add to the divisiveness.

He should be preaching understanding and coming together to move forward, healing, and all that other nonsense. Falling to the level of those willing to take political advantage is NOT the position our leader should take regarding the inner political turmoil of a foreign nation.

That being said, the US has allowed violent riots to run unchecked for months, what did they think was going to happen?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Heck we've got james suggesting this is a false flag attempt to overthrow the government.


I didn't say that. I suggested that the extremists may also be hoping to invite more violence and chaos that feeds on this.

The attack wasn't a false flag attack. It was Trump, commander of the insurgency, commanding his rebels to overthrow the US Government. Their flags were very clear: Trump and MAGA, here to overthrow the USA.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I didn't say that. I suggested that the extremists may also be hoping to invite more violence and chaos that feeds on this.
> 
> The attack wasn't a false flag attack. It was Trump, commander of the insurgency, commanding his rebels to overthrow the US Government. Their flags were very clear: Trump and MAGA, here to overthrow the USA.


It's been days, no evidence that he called for illegal action has been presented.

So what, a bunch of Trump supporters are butthurt that their guy lost. Accept it and move on.
That's what they should do, that's what he told them to do.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> It's been days, no evidence that he called for illegal action has been presented.


Of course there is evidence. There's tons of evidence. Trump phoned Georgia and broke laws, pressured them to overturn the legal election. That in itself was treason.

Then (in well recorded) tweets, and then a speech in DC, he directly commanded rebels to march on the Capitol and disrupt the election (the count and certification).


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Of course there is evidence. There's tons of evidence. Trump phoned Georgia and broke laws, pressured them to overturn the legal election.
> 
> Then (in well recorded) tweets, and then a speech in DC, he directly commanded supporters to march on the Capitol and overturn the election.


March and protest, no illegally occupy the building. At least not in any tweet I saw

Yeah, the Georgia thing was dumb, though I haven't listened to the whole phone call.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> March and protest, no illegally occupy the building. At least not in any tweet I saw
> 
> Yeah, the Georgia thing was dumb, though I haven't listened to the whole phone call.


I don't have to argue details here. There are courts for all of this.

My guess is that Trump and associates will be charged with treason. If the federal government doesn't want to pursue charges, then several states will pursue him for his crimes.

The actual MAGA rebels themselves might be less blameworthy than Trump. One can see from the footage that many of them are of low intelligence, possibly mentally disabled. There is a strong parallel here to people who are radicalized by ISIS and islamic terrorism. Same thing happened here ... just like radical muslim terrorists, many of these MAGA terrorists have mental and emotional problems.

Trump is the organizer and commander.


----------



## capricorn (Dec 3, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> March and protest, no illegally occupy the building. At least not in any tweet I saw
> 
> Yeah, the Georgia thing was dumb, though I haven't listened to the whole phone call.


Since when is illegal occupation of buildings not acceptable. Going on for so long.

Trump incited March on capitol hill. Yes.

Anyone saying that march could overthrow election is just extrapolating.

There is no support in legislative, judiciary, general population or govt machinery for this narrative of "March was to overthrow election"

So, we should stop with this.

Armed people marched and occupied capitol hill. If they violated law, prosecute them. If you can connect the dots and tie the president to illegal act, prosecute him too. But don't be naive to think that power could be grabbed so easily against the largest standing military in the world.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I don't have to argue details here. There are courts for all of this.


This will never see a courtroom.
At best it will be a political show in Congress.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> This will never see a courtroom.
> At best it will be a political show in Congress.


I'm constantly amazed by how blase you are about dangerous right wing extremists. This is why I believe you are a supporter of the movement; I think you're one of them.

MrMatt's history at CMF:

He said it was no big deal when the militias were training for battle.
He said it was no big deal when they (MAGA) started violent attacks on civilians.
He said it was no big deal when they (MAGA) sent pipe bombs to political enemies.
He said it was no big deal when MAGA set up sniper positions near my downtown office.
He said it was no big deal when they started talking about rebellion.
He said it was no big deal when they began interfering in the election process.

Now he says it's no big deal when they stormed the capitol to overthrow the democratic election, to install their rebel commander as dictator.

And YOU were in the Canadian military?? Shameful! All those years of fighting for Canada, and you didn't pick up on how western countries are different than third-world s*** hole countries?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Pop quiz everyone! What do you call a guy who

makes excuses for militants who gun down people in the streets (Rittenhouse)
makes excuses for people who send pipe bombs to politicians (maga bomber)
makes excuses for insurgents who carry out an assault on the government capital to stop an election

I would call such a guy a terrorist / extremist sympathizer, and I would hope that police and intelligence agencies are watching him, because he might be connected to very dangerous people.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

This is like the Mafia. The “boss” knows well enough to leave just enough ”space” between his orders and the chaotic results. The boss never directly Orders the hitman to make a hit.....its concealed behind closed doors and flows through lesser minions. That way, the boss can always deny it. It’s plainly obvious to most, especially law enforcement.

and while not directly tied to the Capitol, check out these instances where criminals acted in Trump’s name or used him as the reason/excuse.









'No Blame?' ABC News finds 54 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults.


President Donald Trump insists he deserves no blame for divisions in America.




abcnews.go.com


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I'm constantly amazed by how blase you are about dangerous right wing extremists. This is why I believe you are a supporter of the movement; I think you're one of them.
> 
> MrMatt's history at CMF:
> 
> He said it was no big deal when the militias were training for battle.


I don't recall this


> He said it was no big deal when they (MAGA) started violent attacks on civilians.


I've always opposed violence, I don't know when I said "no big deal"


> He said it was no big deal when they (MAGA) sent pipe bombs to political enemies.


I do not approve of this either, I categorically denounce political violence.


> He said it was no big deal when MAGA set up sniper positions near my downtown office.


Didn't know about this.


> He said it was no big deal when they started talking about rebellion.


I think people talking about rebellion is a problem.
I've actually called out and reported users on this forum who were advocating for treason.
This happened just a few days ago.


> He said it was no big deal when they began interfering in the election process.


I think it's horrible that anyone is interfering with the eleciton process.


> Now he says it's no big deal when they stormed the capitol to overthrow the democratic election, to install their rebel commander as dictator.


Again, from the beginning I said that illegally entering the building was wrong.
A peaceful protest march is just fine.


> And YOU were in the Canadian military?? Shameful! All those years of fighting for Canada, and you didn't pick up on how western countries are different than third-world s*** hole countries?


You seem to be upset with a person who is not me.
They clearly have different views, and say different things.

Don't forget, I stated I disapproved of the illegal entry into the Capital buildings before you did!
Actually, have you yet stated that YOU disagree with the actions of the rioters yet?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Pop quiz everyone! What do you call a guy who
> 
> makes excuses for militants who gun down people in the streets (Rittenhouse)
> makes excuses for people who send pipe bombs to politicians (maga bomber)
> ...



makes excuses for militants who gun down people in the streets
makes excuses for people who send pipe bombs to politicians
makes excuses for insurgents who carry out on assault on the government capital to stop an election
I would and have called them terrorists, wouldn't you?
I called Michael Zehaf-Bibeau a terrorist before the mainstream media did.
I was glad they charged these guys, but don't know what ended up happening.








Coronavirus: Armed protesters enter Michigan statehouse


Several senators reportedly wore bulletproof vests as armed demonstrators looked on from the gallery.



www.bbc.com





I honestly don't know what you're so fired up at me about.
You seem somewhat reasonable on most of this, but for some reason you've decided I'm the enemy. 

I'd like to point out that in your quiz, we actually have pretty much the same answers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trump is careful to use "plausible denial" and "word play", perhaps based on the misguided notion he is smarter than everyone else.

He may think it shields him from prosecution, but judges aren't stupid and it is routine for them to interpret messages presented as evidence.

Trump is like a lot of other criminals, who think they have discovered a clever new way to skirt being held responsible and accountable.

If Trump's coy word play made a difference in the courts.......nobody would be in prison.


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## capricorn (Dec 3, 2013)

james4beach said:


> And YOU were in the Canadian military?? Shameful! All those years of fighting for Canada, and you didn't pick up on how western countries are different than third-world s*** hole countries?


With these views, you are calling the other guy all the names.. introspect much.. I see a racist here. In all these years at CMF I would not associate that term with a post from you till I read this and your umbrage at Mr Matt.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> I'm disgusted by those same comments.
> Nobody has shown this alleged incitement.
> 
> Now I know that Trudeau has to butter up the incoming administration, but it's embarrassing. His comments only add to the divisiveness.
> ...


We disagree. That's fine.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Retiredguy said:


> We disagree. That's fine.


Yes it is, I just wish he took a more open and conciliatory tone. I think it was a missed opportunity.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Yes it is, I just wish he took a more open and conciliatory tone. I think it was a missed opportunity.


 ...huh? For what reason other than you think Trump is a 75 year old throwing a tantrum? Yeah, it's no big deal to incite a mob to storm the Capitol of the country he represents only because he's still president supposedly for 12 more days or so.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Sounds like impeachment is on tap for next week. Don’t think he’ll be removed from office and convicted, but I think the impeachment will go through. If so, he will certainly go down as the worst president in polls.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I take some comfort listening to former Republican Senator Ben Sasse say he is confident guard rails are in place to prevent Trump from issuing orders to start military action or launch a nuclear attack.

Also, Speaker Pelosi said today she has discussed the situation with the top General at the Pentagon, General Milley regarding Trump's control over the military. It sounds like the military won't obey any orders from Trump. They likely have already transferred the decision making process to President Biden.

Trump is wisely being excommunicated from some key Presidential powers.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> March and protest, no illegally occupy the building. At least not in any tweet I saw
> 
> Yeah, the Georgia thing was dumb, though I haven't listened to the whole phone call.


Mafia dons don't have to say "go and kill this guy" on the phone to be criminally responsible. So just because Trump winds up a crowd and points them at the Capitol, but doesn't say "smash it down" doesn't mean he is free of responsibility for what happened. Just like the mafia don can't skate because the just said 'take care of him'.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Twitter permanently Suspends Trump. Let’s see what he does in response.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/twitter-bans-trump-permanently-1.5867020


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## potato69 (Mar 21, 2018)




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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Twitter permanently Suspends Trump. Let’s see what he does in response.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/twitter-bans-trump-permanently-1.5867020


I actually think this is a good thing.
Hopefully it will drive people to less politically biased platforms.

To be fair Jack Dorsey honestly seems like he wants to do the right thing. 
Unfortunately unlike other social media CEO's he doesn't understand how biased things are, everything is viewed through a political lens.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I actually think this is a good thing.
> Hopefully it will drive people to less politically biased platforms.
> 
> To be fair Jack Dorsey honestly seems like he wants to do the right thing.
> Unfortunately unlike other social media CEO's he doesn't understand how biased things are, everything is viewed through a political lens.


Like Parler? Apple gave them 24h to put in an acceptable moderation policy or be removed from the app store.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Money172375 said:


> Twitter permanently Suspends Trump. Let’s see what he does in response.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/twitter-bans-trump-permanently-1.5867020


No big deal apparently.
*Donald Trump Has Joined Parler According to Fox News' Sean Hannity*


andrewf said:


> Like Parler? Apple gave them 24h to put in an acceptable moderation policy or be removed from the app store.


It’s a website, can be used without any apps in the browser.





Parler Free Speech Social Network


Parler is an unbiased social media focused on real user experiences and engagement. Free expression without violence and no censorship. Parler never shares your personal data.




parler.com




Plus iPhone can be jail broken and then no app restrictions





iOS jailbreaking - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

As the offending tweets that triggered the ban, Twitter cited Trump saying he would not go to the inauguration of Joe Biden, and that the *75 million American patriots who voted for him *_“will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!”

That is a big number of Americans, many of them are armed. _
“The Big tech”is really poking a grizzly bear with their actions. I personally wouldn’t.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

LOL.....I will be more impressed when the Trump mob parades in the Southside of Chicago late at night.

The next time the Trump mob faces off with the police........the cops won't be talking as politely to them.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I suspect that Trump is going to leave the US. His future there is in prison for a multitude of crimes.

There was a chance he could have been pardoned by Biden, but after he incited the riot that is off the table.

Biden simply can't do it now. If he did it would cripple his administration.

The question is.........where will Trump go ?


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> where will Trump go ?


To Russia


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The MAGA terrorists were chanting "hang Mike Pence!" (see video below). They also carried nooses and zip-tie handcuffs.

They were not only coming to overthrow the government by stopping the election, but also planned to kill the Vice President of the USA.






They set up a noose and gallows, to murder members of the government of the USA.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

News segment showing newly released footage of the MAGA terrorists attacking police, plus the man in military gear carrying the restraints for taking hostages.

Remember: the _purpose_ of this attack on government was to stop the election and install Trump in power, as instructed by Trump himself.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Like Parler? Apple gave them 24h to put in an acceptable moderation policy or be removed from the app store.


Google suspended them too. However you can still install apps on Google devices.
Face it, these companies are working to censor speech they don't agree with. I do not think it is appropriate for Google/Apple duopoly to have the power to control what can be said on you phone. It's terrifying.

They've been allowing people to spew antisocial rhetoric for years, but their policies are very unfairly enforced.

You might delude yourself and say that they're doing the right thing, and the majority agree with them, so it's ok.
But remember whatever power you give to Google/Apple/Government today will be used by the next guy and you might not agree with them.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, where bad ideas can be challenged. But for some reason people want to cram these problems into corners where they're fester and grow. 
I think people really need to look at de-radicalization strategies and figure out how resolve this problem.

The BEST thing you can do to help radicals (like MAGA or BLM extremists) is to make them feel attacked and persecuted.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> News segment showing newly released footage of the MAGA terrorists attacking police, plus the man in military gear carrying the restraints for taking hostages.
> 
> Remember: the _purpose_ of this attack on government was to stop the election and install Trump in power, as instructed by Trump himself.


Clearly they crossed the line, I think pretty much everyone (at least here) agrees.

If the purpose was to protest an injustice that's fine.
If the purpose was to use violence or the threat of violence to stop the functioning that's wrong.

Personally I think when protests block the free movement of other people they should be arrested for doing so..
But you have to understand my definition of "peaceful protest" is much more stringent than most. 
I think the use of physical force of threat of violence should be roundly denounced, but I know I'm in the minority here.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Rioters who stormed US Capitol now face backlash at work



> _NEW YORK - A printing company in Maryland saw the photo on Twitter Wednesday night: an employee roaming the halls of the U.S. Capitol with a company badge around his neck. He was fired the next day.
> 
> Others are facing similar repercussions at work for their participation in Wednesday’s riot at the U.S. Capitol. Some business owners are being trashed on social media and their establishments boycotted, while rank-and-file employees at other businesses have been fired.
> 
> ...


Now the bunch of MAGA suckers can ask the Dump for a job at his syndicate.


And the news gets even better:

Rioters fired, face company boycotts after storming U.S. Capitol

_



... 
There are some exceptions. Those who work for the government may be more legally protected, and so too are many unionized workers, who typically have a contract listing the reasons for which they could be fired. And some states may have laws that protect workers’ free speech.

*But “what people did at the Capitol Wednesday was rioting, not protesting,” said Aaron Holt, a labour and employment attorney with law firm Cozen O’Connor. “When someone violates the law, that’s almost never going to be protected, and a private employer is going to be within their rights to discipline or take some kind of action in response to that that might go against their fundamental core values.”*

Small businesses are also facing backlash on online review sites such as Yelp, which flagged at least 20 businesses for unusual review activity related to Wednesday’s rioting.

*One business, Becky’s Flowers in Midland, Texas, is owned by Jenny Cudd, a former mayoral candidate who posted a video on Facebook bragging that she had broken into House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s office. By Friday, Cudd’s flower shop was flooded with dozens of one-star reviews in which she was called a traitor and domestic terrorist, along with photos of her inside the Capitol.* Reached by text message, Cudd said she was not available to speak Friday.

Yelp has flagged businesses for unusual review activity following less egregious but still controversial events. Reviewers raged on on the Yelp page of Virginia restaurant The Red Hen after it booted former White House press secretary Sarah Sanders from its establishment a few years ago. And commenters from the left and right bombarded Big Apple Pizza’s Yelp page with political beliefs after former President Barack Obama was enthusiastically hugged by a customer there.

Social media has outed people for their involvement in activities outside of the workplace, landing them in trouble with their employers. In 2017 after a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, many posted photos on social media of those who participated, leading in some cases to their firing.

*In Louisiana, customers said they would boycott supermarket chain Rouses Market after retired owner Donald Rouse was shown in a photo at Wednesday’s riot. Rouse said in an email statement that he attended the rally as a supporter of the president but left before the violence began.*

“I’m horrified by the violence and destruction we saw yesterday and the pain it has caused so many,” Rouse said. “Our country desperately needs to come together to heal, and I will do everything I can to be a part of that process.”

The Krew of Red Beans, a group which organizes parades, posted on Instagram that it would return $20,000 in donations it received from the market.

Click to expand...

_


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> To Russia


 ... great proposal ... also remind him to take all his baggage (including his followers) with him too. And no need to send back his regards of "From Russia With Love".


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Russia should work out for the Bareback Mountain boys.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Interesting comment.
This incident was described as a "riot" . However there were no fires set inside the Capitol, none of the paintings or walls were daubed with painted propaganda messages, no furniture was damaged, no flooring or paving was smashed and used as projectiles. I have seen no videos showing fireworks fired at police or flammable liquids in bottles hurled. Surely according to BLM standard this did not even exhibit the aggression of a peaceful protest.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Interesting comment.
> This incident was described as a "riot" . However there were no fires set inside the Capitol, none of the paintings or walls were daubed with painted propaganda messages, no furniture was damaged, no flooring or paving was smashed and used as projectiles. I have seen no videos showing fireworks fired at police or flammable liquids in bottles hurled. Surely according to BLM standard this did not even exhibit the aggression of a peaceful protest.


There was damage. A lot of it. Broken glass for one. A wooden sign with Pelosi’s name on it. Also read the walls were smeared with feces around the time the officer was killed.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Beaver101 said:


> his baggage (including his followers) with him


All 75 millions Americans (or more?)that voted for him?
“There’s more to an election than mere votin’, my boy, for as an eminent American once said: ‘I care not who casts the votes of a nation if they’ll let me make the count.‘” — from Uncle Henry, a novel by George Creel, 1922.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Parler surged to No. 1 among the Apple App Store's free apps Saturday after Googlesuspended the "free speech" social media platform from its Play Store.
Twitter saw a surprising item trending on Friday night when "Hang Mike Pence" hit around 14,000 tweets, according to reports.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Money172375 said:


> There was damage.


This is true damage caused by true riots.








Aerial views of St. Paul, Minneapolis show the extent of destruction from riots


On the streets of St. Paul and Minneapolis, there is block after block of charred buildings and windows that were boarded up for protection during rioting. From an aerial view, the extent of the da…




www.twincities.com


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wouldn't assume the 75 million people who voted for Trump still support him or would vote for him again.............given the latest events.

The repercussions falling onto the Trump mob indicate to me that Americans aren't going to put up with their nonsense anymore.

They are being hunted down, will be going to prison, losing their jobs, disgraced by the media, cut off social media, and feel threatened for their lives.

I doubt that is what they expected would happen. More likely they had convinced themselves they were conquering hero types.

I doubt Kyle Rittenhouse expected to be where he is, but there he sits.........alone and Trump never even mentions his name.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Apple store has banned Parler from it's site.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> The Apple store has banned Parler from it's site.


The website is still up.
Parler Free Speech Social Network
american software corporations were/are the biggest donors of the democrats campaign 
of corse they will ban. Biden was talking about raising the taxes for corporations, now his rhetoric changed

and this is only those donations that public can see
Top executives at Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google and Microsoft have written more than 1,000 checks to political groups totaling more than $16 million this election cycle, with almost all of that money going to Democrats.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> They are being hunted down, will be going to prison, losing their jobs, disgraced by the media, cut off social media, and feel threatened for their lives.


Well, people stand up to what they believe. I don’t think any amount of repressions will be able to suppress that. Repression will bring up more resistance against it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Interesting comment.
> This incident was described as a "riot" . However there were no fires set inside the Capitol, none of the paintings or walls were daubed with painted propaganda messages, no furniture was damaged, no flooring or paving was smashed and used as projectiles. I have seen no videos showing fireworks fired at police or flammable liquids in bottles hurled. Surely according to BLM standard this did not even exhibit the aggression of a peaceful protest.


These people tried to overthrow the US Government and attempted to murder the Vice President.

Only a sick, deeply disturbed individual would say there is no aggression when a terrorist group tries to overthrow government, take hostages, kill the VP, and install a dictator into power.

People protecting the MAGA insurgents are terrorist sympathizers. Quite likely terrorists themselves.



Ukrainiandude said:


> Twitter saw a surprising item trending on Friday night when "Hang Mike Pence" hit around 14,000 tweets, according to reports.


Right. That's when the terrorists were orchestrating the murder of the Vice President of the USA.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> These people tried to overthrow the US Government and attempted to murder the Vice President.
> 
> Only a sick, deeply disturbed individual would say there is no aggression when a terrorist group tries to overthrow government, take hostages, kill the VP, and install a dictator into power.


overstatement in my opinion
a definition of A *terrorist* is a person who uses violence, especially murder and bombing, in order to achieve political aims. Was there bombing?
during Minneapolis riots the police quoters were set on fire, police vehicles burned. What happened to those terrorists?
Now a group of people in funny costumes posed for pictures inside of “sacred“ government building. I see no significant damage. The USA government supported and sponsored numerous international riots that turned deadly or became years long hot spots. Should we call the entire US government sponsors of terrorists!?
I cannot stand the duplicity of standards.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I see no significant damage.


They tried to overthrow the government (which means an attempt to take over the United States of America) and tried to kill the Vice President, the second highest figure in command of the USA.

Why are you defending them? Are you involved in an effort to overthrow western governments, @Ukrainiandude ?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

'Where is Pence?' Pro-Trump mob tried to hunt down vice president, lawmakers in Capitol siege.

The MAGA terrorists went looking for Pence and government officials (so they could take them hostage and murder them). They set up gallows and a noose outside, and were carrying plastic handcuffs.

@Ukrainiandude , are you part of a movement that plans violent attacks on government officials? Please share.... thanks!!!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Parler is getting kicked of it's service host service and has nowhere to go yet.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

The big tech oligopoly is really going after Parler. Amazon has informed Parler that they are terminating AWS hosting services on Sunday. 









Amazon Is Booting Parler Off Of Its Web Hosting Service


Amazon's suspension of Parler's account means that unless it can find another host, once the ban takes effect on Sunday Parler will go offline.




www.buzzfeednews.com


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

All the social media companies should purge the alt right and other nefarious users.

I think the CEOs realized they were at high risk of regulation when Trump went after them, unless they stepped up and started banning hate speech and similar accounts.

I say it is about time. People who use the social media in a responsible way have nothing to fear.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Like Parler? Apple gave them 24h to put in an acceptable moderation policy or be removed from the app store.





https://legal.parler.com/documents/useragreement.pdf



Would be nice to know what an acceptable moderation policy is.

I think that their current policy should be sufficient.
1. Comply with all relevant legislation
2. Not dox people
3. Comply with community guidelines

Since their policy is already more restrictive than simply what is legal, it's clear Apple and Google want additional censorship in online platforms.



andrewf said:


> The big tech oligopoly is really going after Parler. Amazon has informed Parler that they are terminating AWS hosting services on Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is REALLY scary.

If you have a business that is legal, enforces all relevant laws, and even goes beyond them to restrict legal acts that they deem unacceptable, the big tech companies will try to shut you down.

From the article, over a period of weeks Amazon identified only 98 instances to them.
1. That's not a lot for a long period.
2. Those posts are against Parler policy, the article is unclear if they were removed. 
- Twitter and other platforms have similar posts, and they're typically removed.
3. All the social media platforms are struggling with this.

Now, those of you who happen to think this is good, what happens when they go too far?
Remember, a lot of what we consider basic human rights was deemed offensive if not criminal at times, and in some places around the world is STILL CRIMINAL.

Of course big tech and the political elite love this.
They want their tight control of the media and political debate.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> Of course big tech and the political elite love this.
> They want their tight control of the media and political debate.


 ... isn't Trump part of the political elite? And now all of a sudden, there's a problem with controlling the "free speech" of Trump's to incite a mob to riot (god knows what else is next)? 

As he stated on Parler, he and his worshippers are going to develop their own social media platform - do that and they can all enjoy each others company there.


----------



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Some might call them revolutioners not mobsters.
> those people still got the support of 1/2 of the Americans.


or patriots...
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."


----------



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

another question...how the heck long does it take these guys , to get dressed up in the morning?!
all that gear, cammo, arms etc.!


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> They tried to overthrow the government (which means an attempt to take over the United States of America) and tried to kill the Vice President, the second highest figure in command of the USA.
> 
> Why are you defending them?


I am not defending anyone. Simply trying to understand the duplicity of western governments.
in 2014 in Ukraine armed protesters backed by the US and Canadian governments did overthrow the elected government. Did you know that Canadian embassy in Ukraine was giving refuge to those armed protesters? Would it be acceptable of any foreign embassy in the USA to give refuge to people that stormed American parliament ? Thanks


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

You would have to ask former Conservative PM Stephen Harper about the political considerations at the time.

The embassy opened the door for a person being chased by riot police. He had a Canadian passport.

Apparently others rushed in with him when the embassy opened the door.

Foreign embassies could choose to provide safe haven for a US protestors who stormed the capital. 

It is neither here nor there, as they would be arrested as soon as they left the embassy.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I am not defending anyone. Simply trying to understand the duplicity of western governments.
> in 2014 in Ukraine armed protesters backed by the US and Canadian governments did overthrow the elected government. Did you know that Canadian embassy in Ukraine was giving refuge to those armed protesters? Would it be acceptable of any foreign embassy in the USA to give refuge to people that stormed American parliament ? Thanks


Given that each these situations can be rather complex it would probably be best to start your own thread on the Ukraine (or any other country) related issues rather than discuss them in the Washington thread here.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

andrewf said:


> The big tech oligopoly is really going after Parler. Amazon has informed Parler that they are terminating AWS hosting services on Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Gab gaining 10,000 users per hour, CEO claims, after Trump's permanent Twitter suspension


https://gab.com/


*Unlike Parler, Gab runs on its own servers, meaning a provider like Amazon can’t decide to pull the plug. After being blacklisted by payment processors and email providers, Gab built its own in-house payment and mail infrastructure, as well as its own messaging service, web browser, and video app.
However, the sudden influx of new traffic has slowed Gab to a crawl. Torba wrote on Wednesday that new servers will be added, and that he has already invited Trump to take up residence on Gab.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Sure......but the domain name gab.com is only leased by the user and the US government can seize it any time. They also control the internet infrastructure.

Any talk of violent protests or insurrection and the website will show an FBI logo on a welcome page.

Torba is building a house on land he doesn't own.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> Sure......but the domain name gab.com is only leased by the user and the US government can seize it any time. They also control the internet infrastructure.
> 
> Any talk of violent protests or insurrection and the website will show an FBI logo on a welcome page.
> 
> Torba is building a house on land he doesn't own.


Please don’t confuse free America with dictatorship China and other communist countries. Thanks
by the way gab has all trumps tweets there, unsure how they instigated any violence








Donald J Trump (@realdonaldtrump) • gab.com


The latest Gabs from Donald J Trump (@realdonaldtrump). Reserved for the 45th President of the United States of America🇺🇸 This account is an uncensored Twitter archive and shares email statements sent by The Office of Donald J. Trump.




gab.com


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trump's "peaceful" protesters.

Plenty of evidence here alone to arrest Trump and his family for inciting a riot on the Capital building.

From their lips.......to the judge's ears.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348293638648782851


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Video on social media of some people getting told they are on a "no fly" terrorist list when they tried to return home from Washington DC.

Also videos of some arrests and social media "investigators" tracking down "suspects" by their picture in the Capital.

Interesting development is that much is still to be disclosed.

Some US officials, including in the Congress and Senate are suspected of being involved in planning the riot on the Capital.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Gab gaining 10,000 users per hour, CEO claims, after Trump's permanent Twitter suspension
> 
> 
> https://gab.com/
> ...


Just wait until DNS providers and cloudflare cut them them off .


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

If federal prosecutors are able to put together enough evidence that these people were planning to execute top government officials, these people (including Giuliani) are screwed beyond belief. Giuliani told the crowd that they will have "*trial by combat*".

The makeshift gallows, noose, and man in commando gear carrying handcuffs sure makes it look like they were going to take hostages and planned to kill them. The crowd was also chanting to kill the Vice President. There's plenty of video evidence that the MAGA terrorists were hunting for specific government people.

IMO the US Government has to be extremely strong in showing absolutely zero tolerance for rebellion and insurrection, and throw maximum sentences at all involved.

If others, including Republican party members, continue to push for (non-democratic, illegal) rebellion and government overthrow, they also have to be rounded up and charged as members of the MAGA insurgency.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Have you seen the #noflylist videos? Many of the suspects have been put on no fly lists and are literally getting arrested at airports and on planes waiting on the tarmac.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The PGA bans Trump for life and cancels all PGA tournaments at any of his golf courses..........ouch.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think that one has to sting more than the others.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

*Armed protests being planned at all 50 state capitols, FBI bulletin says*
*An internal FBI note obtained by ABC News shows warnings of "a huge uprising."








Armed protests being planned at all 50 state capitols, FBI bulletin says


An internal FBI bulletin showed armed protests and the "storming" of buildings are being planned for all 50 state capitols leading up to and on Inauguration Day.




abcnews.go.com




*


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Armed protests being planned at all 50 state capitols, FBI bulletin says


This is why the insurrection attempt has to be put down hard. That headline is improper, because these aren't "protests". Using guns and bombs, and trying to kill government people, is not a "protest" and never has been. Showing up at political (democratic) institutions with rifles is not a protest.

These are terrorist attacks and attempts to overthrow the US Government. Attacks on state governments already started earlier, at Trump's direction. Remember that he told his supporters to attack the Michigan governor. Eventually they mobilized and were preparing to kidnap (and perhaps kill) her.

The FBI is fully aware that armed right wing extremists are the greatest threat the USA faces, and has been for many years now.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trump likes to tell people he is a scratch golfer........which he isn't even close.

The USGA should announce his official handicap is 36.4.........the highest there is.


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> *Armed protests being planned at all 50 state capitols, FBI bulletin says*
> *An internal FBI note obtained by ABC News shows warnings of "a huge uprising."
> 
> 
> ...


Is an armed protest really a protest or is it a mob?


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

andrewf said:


> Is an armed protest really a protest or is it a mob?


Media likes to use catching headlines. Mark my word nothing will happen. All the publicity is about to justify implementing more restrictions and turn the USA into authoritarian country with one governing party (basically large corporations will rule) . That’s all.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Media likes to use catching headlines. Mark my word nothing will happen. All the publicity is about to justify implementing more restrictions and turn the USA into authoritarian country with one governing party (basically large corporations will rule) . That’s all.


I can barely make sense of your post.

Every country has to protect itself from those who fight the state and try to overthrow it. Rebellion, insurrection, whatever you call it ... has to be extinguished. America now will have to protect its democratic form of government against authoritarians like Trump/MAGA.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I can barely make sense of your post.
> 
> Every country has to protect itself from those who fight the state and try to overthrow it. Rebellion, insurrection, whatever you call it ... has to be extinguished. America now will have to protect its democratic form of government against authoritarians like Trump/MAGA.


Interesting that the articles and commentary skip over the Boogaloo Boys, who actually want to overthrow the government, and were listed in the FBI warning.
At least Trump signed emergency declarations.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A hacker downloaded all the information.......messages, videos, names, addresses, and GPS locations of everything on Parler before they were shut down.

It is turned over to law enforcement. Interesting that Parler required ID for users which is making it a lot easier for law enforcement to track people down.

By parsing the content with GPS coordinates, the FBI can track down everyone who used Parler while on the Capital grounds.

The hacker is known as a "white hat" hacker who has worked with the government on terrorism cases.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Trump supporters flock to messaging app Telegram after Parler goes offline


Many high profile supporters and allies of the President post regularly on the messaging app




www.telegraph.co.uk





*Trump supporters flock to messaging app Telegram after Parler goes offline*
Many high profile supporters and allies of the President post regularly on the messaging app
ByJames Titcomb SAN FRANCISCO11 January 2021 • 7:16pm

Donald Trump’s online supporters have flocked to Telegram, an encrypted messaging app that has been beset by allegations of harbouring criminals and terrorists, after the social networking site Parler was forced offline.
Telegram became the second-most downloaded app in America on Sunday as users looked for a new home online after Mr Trump was suspended from Facebook and Twitter, and as tech companies cut off Parler, a free speech social network that had sprung up as an alternative.
More than half a million people in the US have downloaded the app since last Wednesday, and posts on Parler had urged users to move to Telegram before Parler was taken offline on Monday.
High-profile allies and backers of the President, including his son Donald Trump Jr and former attorney Sidney Powell, post frequently on the Telegram app. Meanwhile, groups for former Parler users or those devoted to the President amassed tens of thousands of users.
*Messages sent over Telegram are encrypted and the app has historically been used to resist censorship or surveillance in countries such as Russia and Iran.*

On Saturday, after Apple and Google had removed the Parler app from their smartphone download stores, Telegram founder Pavel Durov said the companies “pose a much bigger problem for freedoms than Twitter”. *Posting on the app, he said Telegram was working on a way to continue to work on iPhones even if Apple removes the app from the App Store.*

Telegram functions in a similar way to apps such as WhatsApp, allowing one-to-one and group chats, but also lets public figures set up “channels” to broadcast to followers. Up to 200,000 people can join public group chats.
*Jen Goldbeck, a professor of information studies at the University of Maryland, said Telegram could become a longer-term home for devoted Trump supporters than Parler because it is less likely to be taken offline. *


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Interesting, that recently I read an article that people were trying to hijack Twitter user handles that contain 3-4 letters because they have become very valuable.

Some guy registered his Twitter username as @ali in 2008 and the account was suspended after the Capital riot.

People want Twitter to give @ali to someone else, but Twitter won't allow registration of these short usernames anymore.

When they are unused or suspended, Twitter keeps them. Twitter will not participate in taking away a username unless there are very clear trademark issues.

Although the terms and conditions on Twitter don't allow buying or selling usernames, some transfers have happened.......under the table.

Israel obtained @israel for an amount rumored to have been in 6 figures. CNN obtained a Twitter user name by employing the owner as a contractor for a year.

So, the guy lost a Twitter handle worth 6 figures or more. What a putz............LOL.

I am thinking @ALI would have a very large range of interested parties.......ALI EXPRESS for one example.



https://twitter.com/ali?lang=en


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

All of the top US generals and military commanders (Join Chiefs of Staff) have issued this instruction to ~ 2 million active personnel. They have reminded all troops that Biden is the legally elected President, and that he *will* be inaugurated.

The top generals remind troops that the military is "fully committed to protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

(in this case, the "enemies" are obviously domestic MAGA extremists)

The generals condemn the sedition and insurrection that occurred. For their sake, I certainly hope that the Trump/MAGA terrorists don't try to go up against the US military. The military obviously takes the insurrection threat seriously enough to issue this _extremely unusual_ letter.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Good, though to be completely honest it should be obvious to everyone.

I hope that Biden simply takes office and leaves this mess behind.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Good, though to be completely honest it should be obvious to everyone.
> 
> I hope that Biden simply takes office and leaves this mess behind.


Leave it behind? That's not how it works. The USA has domestic terrorists and insurrectionists. These enemies of the state have to be rooted out and brought to justice before they cause more harm.

Don't you remember your military days? Like you did in the Canadian military... do you remember how those unstable countries had insurgents and terrorists? Well the USA has a lot of them too, and you don't just let something like that go.

Or do I misunderstand Iraq and Afghanistan. Did you guys just give the insurgents a pat on the back and tell them, "now you boys behave yourselves and don't cause more trouble!" Something tells me you (and your fellow soldiers) weren't so gentle and understanding towards insurgents and terrorists.

But, man do you sound gentle and understanding about these insurgents.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Leave it behind? That's not how it works. The USA has domestic terrorists and insurrectionists. These enemies of the state have to be rooted out and brought to justice before they cause more harm.
> 
> Don't you remember your military days? Like you did in the Canadian military... do you remember how those unstable countries had insurgents and terrorists? Well the USA has a lot of them too, and you don't just let something like that go.
> 
> ...


Again, making arguments against claims I didn't make. I think if you didn't spend so much time arguing with positions I never took, you'd have nothing to say.
I have, from the beginning, even while it was ongoing and full information was available, voiced my disapproval.
I've been calling for the prosecution of violent rioters for years.
I was calling for it when you were making false claims about secret police in Portland (and posting photos of uniformed and identified law enforcement to "prove" your casse"

Yes I want people to accept that as of noon on Jan 20, Biden will be president, and the US as a country has to move on and get united behind him. I agree with the Joint Chiefs, I would hope you do as well.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I had to laugh when I read the guy with the Viking helmet and painted face is in jail and is on a food protest.

His mother says he only eats "organically grown" food. 

Maybe the jail will send someone to Whole Foods just for him.....LOL


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> I had to laugh when I read the guy with the Viking helmet and painted face is in jail and is on a food protest.
> 
> His mother says he only eats "organically grown" food.
> 
> Maybe the jail will send someone to Whole Foods just for him.....LOL


Yeah, but we know that these people are crazy.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> I had to laugh when I read the guy with the Viking helmet and painted face is in jail and is on a food protest.
> 
> His mother says he only eats "organically grown" food.
> 
> Maybe the jail will send someone to Whole Foods just for him.....LOL


 ... he can eat his own created organics too.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

There can be no reconciliation until after the purge of traitors has ended.

Liberals have awoken from their slumber to the realization that appeasement doesn't work with those who support a criminal like Trump.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> There can be no reconciliation until after the purge of traitors has ended.
> 
> Liberals have awoken from their slumber to the realization that appeasement doesn't work with those who support a criminal like Trump.


Talk like that is what the agitators need to rile up their supporters.

You need to be VERY clear who the problem is, saying "those who commit violence will be prosecuted" is fine.
saying "anyone who support the Republicans" is problematic.

I think it is very important that the crimes, but only the crimes are prosecuted.

If this gets the appearance of politically motivated retribution, it will get worse.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

james4beach said:


> issued this instruction to ~ 2 million active personnel


 Approximately half of them voted for trump (probably more), and in the case of 75 m Americans that voted trump, forming the resistance against what many believe as fabricated elections. I don’t think military will shoot the civilians. I don’t think it will get to that. But if I were to bet my money on trump supporters vs biden supporters in the street fighting, I would bet on the former.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The terrorists are not the same thing as the 74 million people who voted for Trump. Nobody has any gripe with people who exercise their right to vote... voting is legal.

There are not 74 million Americans acting in rebellion to the USA.

The terrorists are the ones who attempt to violently attack / overthrow the US government and harm government workers. You know, like bringing weapons and then going to government buildings to interfere with government, overthrow it, or cause bodily harm. The people who carry out the violence or directly organize it (Trump, Giuliani).

Currently that number is rather small. Maybe a few hundred actually trespassed into the Capitol building? Maybe a few thousand? There are likely many more thousand of them who had planned to attack the government but maybe didn't show up.

Whether the other 74 million Trump voters want to become terrorists and enemies of the state is up to them. If they decide to take up arms against the USA, then my guess is that they will either be charged with crimes, or killed in the process of committing terrorism. *The military laid out the message that insurrection will not be permitted... so the choice of what to do is up to Trump voters.*

If a Trump voter doesn't pick up a weapon to go fight the USA, then there's no problem.

But, a separate issue than the _voters_, Trump himself at this point is the leader of a terrorist group. Or as a former DHS official puts it, "the operational leader of this domestic terrorism effort".


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

The pictures of American military personnel sleeping on the floor of the American parliament, shows how scared American “elites“ are of the common American people.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

"Show of force".........letting the anarchists know that they will get a much different response the next time they arrive in a mob.

A concrete and steel fence wall has already been constructed around the perimeter of the Capital. The anarchists won't get anywhere near there.

I don't expect any more than a few scattered problems. The mob is on the run. Any of them who used Parler will be known by the FBI and a database is being set up for them. Any time their ID is checked their name will pop up in the "domestic terrorist" category.

I hope they enjoy their new life.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> The pictures of American military personnel sleeping on the floor of the American parliament, shows how scared American “elites“ are of the common American people.


They are not afraid of "common American people". They are afraid of terrorists, who are definitely not common people.

The MAGA terrorists use violence to bully the government representatives into meeting their agenda/ ideology. As a result, members of government fear for their lives, and their families, because the MAGA terrorists might kill them.

Do you somehow think it's a good thing for extremists to inflict fear and terror in the population? Right wing extremists did this a few months ago when they attempted to kidnap the Michigan governor.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> A concrete and steel fence wall has already been constructed around the perimeter of the Capital. The anarchists won't get anywhere near there.


This is German parliament, no fence.








similar to other countries in Europe.
American so called political “elites” have lost touch with reality and Americans, and only remember them when election time comes.
They are not irreplaceable you know.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

You know, he is not wrong.








The 'Left' lit 'actual flames!' -GOP Rep. Gaetz | Reuters Video


U.S. Representative Matt Gaetz of Florida, a reliable Republican ally of the president, railed against the push to impeach Donald Trump for a second time on Wednesday, alleging "the Left in America has incited far more political violence than the Right.”




www.reuters.com


----------



## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Shall we recall the Parliament hill attack, when Harper had to hide in a closet? 

It was a lone wolf, not a mob, but it goes to show our security is rather lax.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> You know, he is not wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, he is wrong. The item is newsworthy because it's an outlandishly stupid thing to say - and he's being ridiculed for it.

The man you cite has a wild conspiracy theory about the Capitol hill terrorists actually being antifa. Is this the kind of person you look up to and take your cues from? In your mind, is he telling you reality?

He's either lying, or is crazy. These are the conspiracy theory driven beliefs which have been the backbone of MAGA and the far right for the last few years. @Ukrainiandude you must do yourself a favour and stop getting information from conspiracy theorists and lunatics.

Brainwashed right wingers have this obsession with fictional "dangerous lefties" everywhere. That's called being out of touch with reality, blinded by ideology.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I monitor a few far-right discussion groups to watch what MAGA is up to. I've watched the deterioration in their mental health over the last 5 years or so. Many of the people posting on the groups I monitor are older men, seemingly over 60.

Here's what MAGA currently thinks:

Many of them now believe that the Capitol attack wasn't really carried out by MAGA but by left wing impostors. They have elaborate, rambling conspiracies about how this is really part of a plot by the radical left and Democrats. They remain firmly focused on the 'radical left' as the primary enemy of America, and believe they are plotting nefarious things. Extremist media outlets carry this narrative as well.

And some of you reading this believe it too. I know you do. There are at least 3 active members here who are on board with these conspiracy theories.

MAGA cult members really are delusional. It's important to realize this so you can understand what's going on with characters like Gaetz.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Antifa/.BLM.....caused riot ? I can't recall seeing black people in the crowd of rioters.

This was more like a white supremacy riot than anything else. Racial tensions have always simmered below the surface in America.

As to comparing the Washington Capital to the German capital, Germany has very strict laws against white nationalist (Nazis) symbols or rhetoric.

The US is going to have to pass the same kind of hate speech laws as elsewhere in the world. Their "unlimited" free speech is a failure.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A funny thing I read about is called "catfishing" and involves women joining dating websites and claiming they are MAGA supporters and conservatives in their bio. They change their geo-location and register with fake names and pictures.

Then they start "troll fishing" for male MAGA followers and start chats with them. They lure them into disclosing personal information and even get them to send videos and pictures of them at the Capital riot and disclosing future plans for their white nationalist groups and setup a "date"......_oh you big brave warrior man_.....

Then the women forward all the information to the FBI. Instead of meeting up with their "date", the MAGA boys end up meeting FBI agents.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> A funny thing I read about is called "catfishing" and involves women joining dating websites and claiming they are MAGA supporters and conservatives in their bio. They change their geo-location and register with fake names and pictures.
> 
> Then they start "troll fishing" for male MAGA followers and start chats with them. They lure them into disclosing personal information and even get them to send videos and pictures of them at the Capital riot and disclosing future plans for their white nationalist groups and setup a "date"......_oh you big brave warrior man_.....
> 
> Then the women forward all the information to the FBI. Instead of meeting up with their "date", the MAGA boys end up meeting FBI agents.


A funny thing called entrapment?

If these "catfishers" are inciting violence, they should be prosecuted.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They remain firmly focused on the 'radical left' as the primary enemy of America, and believe they are plotting nefarious things. Extremist media outlets carry this narrative as well.


I wouldn't say nefarious, I'd say they have very bad plans.
The plans are public.

Read 
joebiden.com
the Green New Deal.

I don't believe any of that crazy conspiracy stuff, but I do believe when they put out campaign plans, they are being honest with what they want to achieve.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Apparently they have some really delusional folks:








North Texan Jenna Ryan Tells CBS 11 She Deserves Pardon After Arrest For Alleged Role In Capitol Riot


"I just want people to know I'm a normal person. That I listen to my president who told me to go to the Capitol," Ryan told CBS 11.




dfw.cbslocal.com


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I think the FBI shouldn’t Arrest anyone until Wednesday afternoon. Don’t want Trump issuing pardons to these terrorists before he leaves.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ At this point, don't think Trump cares about issuing any pardons to anyone other than himself. Which in itself will be very interesting if he does.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> I think the FBI shouldn’t Arrest anyone until Wednesday afternoon. Don’t want Trump issuing pardons to these terrorists before he leaves.


He can issue pardons before charges are laid.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> He can issue pardons before charges are laid.


Understand that....but does he know who they are? I assume you need to name them or can he pardon anyone charged with Capitol rioting?


----------



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Tostig said:


> We know Trump's tweets certainly inspire his supports to rally but who was it that actually did the organizing of today's insurrection?
> 
> Why was the Washington Police presence so sparse even after the warning from the Mayor? Why were the barricades so flimsy? Who knew that the Congress security guards were unarmed? (Reminder that security in the Parliament Building in Ottawa was armed and did kill an intruder.) Why wasn't the Congress building protected like the White House is? Some insider must have known.


The FBI is investigating some leads. One of the organizers of Stop-the-Steal said a Republican official had given him some sort of instruction or tour. There's also a video during the break-in of a woman yelling directions through a bullhorn to her fellow insurgents how to get to the House Chambers - and it sounds like she has a lot of details.

Of course, the usual people on this thread will just shrug it off and state that it was nothing out of the ordinary.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Tostig said:


> The FBI is investigating some leads. One of the organizers of Stop-the-Steal said a Republican official had given him some sort of instruction or tour. There's also a video during the break-in of a woman yelling directions through a bullhorn to her fellow insurgents how to get to the House Chambers - and it sounds like she has a lot of details.


Very concerning. All of this is organized by certain characters, and I hope the FBI and DoJ can figure out who is making this stuff happen and put a stop to it.

This is just my theory of course, but I don't think average Trump voters are motivated to do these insurrections and try to overthrow governments. I think there are instigators; someone is whipping up MAGA people to extremism.

I think far right terrorism is going to continue for a while -- I expect many more attacks in the coming years. But I suspect the blame lies with the relatively small number of extremists. This is usually how extremism works anyway. The violent extremists (true insurrections who want to overthrow the USA) will hide among the larger number of MAGA people, which gives them cover.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Very concerning. All of this is organized by certain characters, and I hope the FBI and DoJ can figure out who is making this stuff happen and put a stop to it.
> 
> This is just my theory of course, but I don't think average Trump voters are motivated to do these insurrections and try to overthrow governments. I think there are instigators; someone is whipping up MAGA people to extremism.
> 
> I think far right terrorism is going to continue for a while -- I expect many more attacks in the coming years. But I suspect the blame lies with the relatively small number of extremists. This is usually how extremism works anyway. The violent extremists (true insurrections who want to overthrow the USA) will hide among the larger number of MAGA people, which gives them cover.


I agree with all of that.
I just hope that it doesn't turn into a McCarthian witch hunt.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> I agree with all of that.
> I just hope that it doesn't turn into a McCarthian witch hunt.


True. That's a tough balance. But US law enforcement has plenty of experience with far right terrorism, and the FBI and DHS have significant expertise there. America has struggled with this stuff for a long time.

I am worried for Americans (and for us too by the way). I suspect there will be political assassinations in the coming years. The far right has already assassinated politicians in the UK and Germany. There have been a couple attempts now in the US so the threat level is very high.

I don't agree with arguments such as "74 million Trump voters will all support chaos". But if the troublemakers behind the scenes remain active and continue to operate, then yes, they can continue to cause a lot of chaos.


----------



## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

james4beach said:


> True. That's a tough balance. But US law enforcement has plenty of experience with far right terrorism, and the FBI and DHS have significant expertise there. America has struggled with this stuff for a long time.
> 
> I am worried for Americans (and for us too by the way). I suspect there will be political assassinations in the coming years. The far right has already assassinated politicians in the UK and Germany. There have been a couple attempts now in the US so the threat level is very high.
> 
> I don't agree with arguments such as "74 million Trump voters will all support chaos". But if the troublemakers behind the scenes remain active and continue to operate, then yes, they can continue to cause a lot of chaos.


McCarthyism was based on paranoia which ended after Joseph Welch made his famous remark. This FBI investigation is based on a real event that was recorded by the perpetrators themselves even.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> True. That's a tough balance. But US law enforcement has plenty of experience with far right terrorism, and the FBI and DHS have significant expertise there. America has struggled with this stuff for a long time.
> 
> I am worried for Americans (and for us too by the way). I suspect there will be political assassinations in the coming years. The far right has already assassinated politicians in the UK and Germany. There have been a couple attempts now in the US so the threat level is very high.
> 
> I don't agree with arguments such as "74 million Trump voters will all support chaos". But if the troublemakers behind the scenes remain active and continue to operate, then yes, they can continue to cause a lot of chaos.


I don't think 70 million Trump voters support chaos, and I don't think 70 million Biden voters support the destruction and re-engingeering of society either.

The problem is that some people seem okay to be entirely dismissive of half the country and their concerns.

When people feel that democratic means won't work, they'll move to other means, that's why the level of hostility has been increasing.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> When people feel that democratic means won't work, they'll move to other means, that's why the level of hostility has been increasing.


This is not the core reason. Trump (their man) has been in power for the last 4 years and the anger & violence of the far right has only increased. The activity level of extremists increased dramatically during Trump's years -- clearly it was not a dissatisfaction of democratic processes, otherwise it would have gone in the reverse direction and they would have calmed down, relieved and pleased that someone they want is in power.

You're misreading all of this. They (extremists) were plotting "civil war" shortly *after Trump was elected* in 2016 and were again talking strongly about it even before the 2020 election.

You are actually buying into the narrative that is pushed by the far right extremists.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

You gotta love cnn band wagon.
what exactly is shocking to the video? People walked in, no damage to the surrounding, no beating of guard, took few pictures and left. Yes many of the f... word, but hey it’s not censored on any Netflix or holliwood either.








New video shows what it was like inside Capitol during riot - CNN Video


A video released by The New Yorker shows rioters roaming through the US Capitol. CNN's Fredricka Whitfield and national security analyst Shawn Turner discuss.




www.cnn.com





Vs burned to the ground police quarters in MN


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

Where is the Republican support for these "peaceful protestors" ? Trump, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Mo Brooks, Marco Rubio.....wherefore art thou ?


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> You gotta love cnn band wagon.
> what exactly is shocking to the video? People walked in, no damage to the surrounding, no beating of guard, took few pictures and left.


There certainly are worse videos out there, like when they beat a cop with an American flag, when they crush a cop in a doorway, or when they chant "hang Mike Pence".

You asked, "what exactly is shocking to the video?" ... dude, the whole attack is shocking. It's shocking beyond belief, in a first world country. This is like watching the Congo or some other s***hole country. Trump has literally made America into a s***hole country.

This footage is shocking because they have broken into a primary government building and you see from a first hand vantage point what an insurrection looks like. Pretty amazing to see that. Maybe to you this isn't shocking, because maybe this is how things are done in Ukraine all the time. But this is absolutely not something that happens in the US and other first world countries. Remember, they have broken into the building to overturn the election by halting the final vote - it's an attempt to overthrow the USA.

There are several shocking parts, such as when MAGA surrounds cops and overpower them, when they break into the building and march around yelling "treason!"

Another interesting part is around 01:59 where they menacingly (in a tone of voice mimicking a movie villain) say "knock knock, we're here" as they break into the chamber floor. This is where they were trying to confront and probably take hostages, maybe to kill members of government.

As they break in they say "while we're here we might as well set up a government" ... clearly showing the intent to overthrow the government of the USA.



sags said:


> Where is the Republican support for these "peaceful protestors" ? Trump, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Mo Brooks, Marco Rubio.....wherefore art thou ?


Many Republicans now fear for their own lives, from the delusional MAGA terrorists they helped create. It's funny how unhinged people can turn on you.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> You're misreading all of this. They (extremists) were plotting "civil war" shortly *after Trump was elected* in 2016 and were again talking strongly about it even before the 2020 election.


Misreading what?
I agree, the extremists have been plotting increasingly violent acts since Trump took office. In fact I'd say that his election was a shock to many, and further motivated them to this end.

The only thing we actually seem to disagree on is
1. That there are extremists and agitators all over trying to exploit the situation. I think this is only a small percentage of people, but still enough to cause problems.
2. The specific facts relating to certain instances.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Where is the Republican support for these "peaceful protestors" ? Trump, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Mo Brooks, Marco Rubio.....wherefore art thou ?


What are you talking about?
I believe they are all for peaceful protest.
They however, like almost everyone else, do not approve of violence and riots.

Which peaceful protests are they not supporting?

or are you being sarcastic with "peaceful protestors", and wondering why the Republicans arent' supporting the universally condemned Capital violence?
They're not supporting it, because it's wrong. The only way this is a question even makes sense is if you believe Republicans are evil.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Apparently they were patriots, but forgot to clarify for which country: FBI probe whether woman stole Pelosi's laptop to sell to Russia

Something about selling a federal government laptop to Russians seems like treason.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

James.....the events in the US are already having an impact on Canadian politics.

Conservative Leader Erin O'Toole has been forced to scramble around talking about the alt right influence in the Conservative Party.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/otoole-no-room-far-right-in-convervative-party-1.5877039


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

bgc_fan said:


> Apparently they were patriots, but forgot to clarify for which country: FBI probe whether woman stole Pelosi's laptop to sell to Russia


Another "patriotic" thing the terrorists did was beating a police officer with an American flag.

It's like straight out of South Park or something.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

It's looking like Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, and Michael Flynn may have been key figures in launching the insurrection. I would add Alex Jones to the list; I saw his media outlets inflaming anger and whipping up people into a frenzy.

I think it's very important to remember that this is not a "grass roots" movement that came about on its own. Going back to at least 2015, these figures (especially Bannon & Stone) have been using the media to radicalize people and grow the alt-right movement. Rupert Murdoch of Fox News joined that bandwagon too. Then you can add the various extremists groups who also push violence & anger through social media and fringe web sites.

I wish that conservative voters (including MAGA) realized that *they are* *being played*. The anger and outrage is artificial... these figures whip up emotions for their own agendas. _They are using you... they are manipulating you._



sags said:


> James.....the events in the US are already having an impact on Canadian politics.
> 
> Conservative Leader Erin O'Toole has been forced to scramble around talking about the alt right influence in the Conservative Party.


It's certainly good to see this, but the "Conservatives" (let's remember they are really Reform/Alliance) have a history of emulating US right wing tactics. I am not convinced that they will act honourably.

Harper successfully replicated the Republican strategy of growing a base of religious conservative voters. Next, Andrew Scheer hired Hamish Marshall, a director from the far-right Rebel Media as a campaign manager. These things are straight out of the Republican playbook. I suspect that we will see Canadian parallels to Bannon/Stone at some point.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Harper successfully replicated the Republican strategy of growing a base of religious conservative voters


Then consistently failed to push forward the religious conservative agenda.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I wish that conservative voters (including MAGA) realized that *they are* *being played*. The anger and outrage is artificial... these figures whip up emotions for their own agendas. _They are using you... they are manipulating you._


Not going to happen, it's a given that conservative voters go for emotions over facts, so as the leadership plays on fears: increasing numbers of minorities, or losing the "American way of life", supporters aren't going to leave. There are a number of articles that discuss this, but here's one that talks about it. These key psychological differences can determine whether you're liberal or conservative


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> Not going to happen, it's a given that conservative voters go for emotions over facts, so as the leadership plays on fears: increasing numbers of minorities, or losing the "American way of life", supporters aren't going to leave. There are a number of articles that discuss this, but here's one that talks about it. These key psychological differences can determine whether you're liberal or conservative


*One British study found that voters who were aggressive, angry kids were more likely to distrust the government and lean liberal as adults.*

It's important to understand that Liberal means different things in different areas.
In the US Liberal means big government nanny state, which is by definition not liberal.
With inconsistent definitions of Liberal and Conservative of course the article is going to be less useful.
That being said I do think lefties are aggressive angry kids, I think if they were a bit more grateful and aware of how good they've got it, they'd likely be Conservative.

I think the only really important note in the article is that both groups think they're being "fair". I actually believe, for the most part people from both groups really do think they're being fair. Which allows them to demonize the other, because obviously if you're being fair, and the other group disagrees, they're being unfair.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> Not going to happen, it's a given that conservative voters go for emotions over facts, so as the leadership plays on fears: increasing numbers of minorities, or losing the "American way of life", supporters aren't going to leave. There are a number of articles that discuss this, but here's one that talks about it. These key psychological differences can determine whether you're liberal or conservative


 ... this is surprising. I thought the Conservative folks always thought they were the most rational people on earth ... starting with the money talks.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Beaver101 said:


> ... this is surprising. I thought the Conservative folks always thought they were the most rational people on earth ... starting with the money talks.


Both sides are pretty light on facts when it hits their hot button issues.
Also tribalism discourages questioning the believe.

For example a feminist who questions the wage gap will be attacked, the facts don't matter.
Or if you question the legitimacy of an election that waives the requirement for voters to show ID.. again you're attacked. 


Georgia Voter Identification Requirements2 | Elections



To reiterate for those who want to attack me, the election happened, the winners have been announced, it appears to have been a legal election.


----------



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Beaver101 said:


> ... this is surprising. I thought the Conservative folks always thought they were the most rational people on earth ... starting with the money talks.


Yes... something about facts not feelings...

Sure they think that they are rational, but generally speaking it's fear of change that is keeping them in to vote conservative. They may justify their choice by trying to fit rational reasons, but you can see their thought process was essentially, I'm voting this way, let's figure out how to justify it so that I don't sound like a regressive.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> Yes... something about facts not feelings...
> 
> Sure they think that they are rational, but generally speaking it's fear of change that is keeping them in to vote conservative. They may justify their choice by trying to fit rational reasons, but you can see their thought process was essentially, I'm voting this way, let's figure out how to justify it so that I don't sound like a regressive.


I can see that viewpoint.

However please consider the possibility that it isn't "fear of change", as far as simply being responsibly cautious.

For example, lets say someone proposes a change that they think is a good idea.
I see that change, I understand it, I see that there are some negative consequences.
I decide on balance I don't think that the change is a net benefit, this is being reasonably cautious.
Someone may decide that rather than addressing my points, they'll just say I'm "scared of change".

The reality is that all actions involve trade offs, ALL of them.
The question we should ask isn't if something is a good idea, it's if it's still a good idea after we account for both the positive and negative impacts of the action.

Secondly opposing a specific change isn't regressive.
Any change can be regressive or progressive, good or bad, in varying degrees in a variety of ways.


Myself I think we have to acknowledge that things are pretty good, and we should work to make them better.
I think most people agree with that, though some think things are pretty bad.
If you think things are objectively bad, I would really want to understand your benchmark/reference case to understand where you're coming from.

FWIW, my biggest concern with politics is how regressive some of the ideas being put forward are.
I remain hopeful that it's not a fundamental desire for unfairness, and simply just a misunderstanding of the the impact.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Both sides are pretty light on facts when it hits their hot button issues.
> Also tribalism discourages questioning the believe.
> 
> For example a feminist who questions the wage gap will be attacked, the facts don't matter.
> Or if you question the legitimacy of an election that waives the requirement for voters to show ID.. again you're attacked ...


Apparently there are lots of US elections to question the legitimacy for as it's reported that voter ID laws came into use in 2002. 

Given that the requirements vary by state, it seems reasonable to wonder about statements that make it sound like there is no variation.




MrMatt said:


> ... To reiterate for those who want to attack me, the election happened, the winners have been announced, it appears to have been a legal election.


Good to know ... but there seem to be lots who have their minds made up, no matter what the variations are.


Cheers


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Apparently there are lots of US elections to question the legitimacy for as it's reported that voter ID laws came into use in 2002.


Of course, however there is a nuance here.
1. Is the election legal.
2. Is the election and authority of the government legitimate.

Legal is easy, legitimate is hard.

I think the requirement to provide ID is an interesting one, and the question is if it is a reasonable tradeoff.
1. If anyone can vote, or vote repeatedly I think we have a problem.
2. If people are denied their right to vote because they have trouble getting ID, that is also a problem.

In the past getting voter ID might have been an unreasonable barrier.
I think today it is increasingly unlikely that getting suitable government issued ID is a problem. Many if not most jurisdictions have Free or low cost ID available.

Those trade off have to be considered and addressed.

The problem with legitimacy is very complex, and something like vote fraud is only one of the considerations.
Also the standard changes, many legitimate and legal elections would not be considered legitimate today.

For example elections that did not allow most of the population (women, blacks, asians etc) to vote, would by todays standards be considered completely illegitimate.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

With reports of people being caught voting multiple times in the same city, in different counties and in different states from a range of methods, it seems more of a question of how effective the methods are and which states are using them. That is for both in-person, mail and a mix (i.e. vote in person on one state, vote by mail in a different state).

As for gov't issued ids covering a lot of voters - some checking is likely required. Offering free gov't id specifically for voting IMO is a clear indication that the usual types of ids (ex. drivers license) does not cover as much as one would assume.


IMO part of the problem is that those who have their minds made up take up one example without checking the wide variation of what's out there.
How many would have guessed that prior to 2016 duplicate voters had been found by facial cognition software or data mining?


What one can dream and be suspicious of may or may not be a problem.


Cheers


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> With reports of people being caught voting multiple times in the same city, in different counties and in different states from a range of methods, it seems more of a question of how effective the methods are and which states are using them. That is for both in-person, mail and a mix (i.e. vote in person on one state, vote by mail in a different state).
> 
> As for gov't issued ids covering a lot of voters - some checking is likely required. Offering free gov't id specifically for voting IMO is a clear indication that the usual types of ids (ex. drivers license) does not cover as much as one would assume.
> 
> ...


Be careful with that, people might consider that "conspiracy theory".

Myself I prefer to look at the published laws and policies of the states.
I do think there are serious problems with the way the various US voting laws exist and were implemented in the election.
I do think it was mostly legal, but that isn't enough.

There are lots of things that are legal and wrong, or illegal and right. It's the job of democracy to fix those issues.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> There are lots of things that are legal and wrong, or illegal and right. It's the job of democracy to fix those issues.


And luckily the courts are there and perfectly capable of handling these situations. As they did, with the 2020 election.

The courts heard the challenges and asked to see evidence of voter fraud. Very minor examples of irregularities were presented. In one case, the vote was corrected and it put Trump even further behind his original count. There was a FULL recount in one state, as I recall.

So the democratic system works, which is what's so great about this.

Unfortunately you have characters like Trump, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon who still push the false story of "voter fraud" and cause direct harm to the democratic system, and that's the real problem. These are people who operate 'in bad faith', and now they've brainwashed millions of people into thinking there is a great injustice here, when there is absolutely no such thing.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> And luckily the courts are there and perfectly capable of handling these situations. As they did, with the 2020 election.
> 
> The courts heard the challenges and asked to see evidence of voter fraud. Very minor examples of irregularities were presented. In one case, the vote was corrected and it put Trump even further behind his original count. There was a FULL recount in one state, as I recall.
> 
> ...


I agree, unfounded, or poorly supported, or limited claims of voter fraud are a problem.

However I do believe that there are legitimate concerns. 

These are two distinctly different concerns, and while some think they are the same issue (and for some people they are) they really are different.

I think an election that allows significant numbers of voters to vote, without showing any form of ID, is suspect.
To reiterate, this IS LEGAL, I'm not claiming that laws were broken, I just think voting without proving your identity or right to vote is a bad idea.


----------



## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Servants of political elites should know their place. Unsure why some are complaining.
Alex Horton

@AlexHortonTX
·
11h

Hundreds of Guard soldiers relegated to the Senate garage, breathing in exhaust fumes and covid. Story coming in a bit.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352446955113353222
*US shocked after National Guardsmen kicked out of Capitol Building and forced to lodge at parking lot after inauguration*


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Under Trump they're in the Capital building.
Under Biden, they're banished to the Garage, so they "don't get in the way".








National Guard allowed back into Capitol complex after lawmakers erupt at banishment to parking garage


Members of the National Guard have been allowed back into the Capitol Complex after a slate of lawmakers voiced their outrage at guardsmen being banished to a parking garage as a rest area, a guardsman told CNN.




www.cnn.com





At least it seems non-partisan that the troops guarding them should be treated a bit better.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The shame is that the troops are still needed and may be there for quite some time.

The Republicans continue to fuel the flames of insurrection on one hand, while talking about "unity" on the other.

President Biden is going to have to set the Republicans straight on who won the election and holds all the power.

Institute the filibuster rule and start legislating. Only when Americans see some good results will they concede that Biden advocates for them.


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Servants of political elites should know their place. Unsure why some are complaining.
> Alex Horton
> @AlexHortonTX
> ·
> ...


 ... what were Mr. Horton expecting? Residency at Trump's hotel?


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The shame is that the troops are still needed and may be there for quite some time.
> 
> The Republicans continue to fuel the flames of insurrection on one hand, while talking about "unity" on the other.
> 
> ...


Trying to turn a democracy into a dictatorship won't make things better.
The Democrats have a very slim majority.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Trying to turn a democracy into a dictatorship won't make things better.
> The Democrats have a very slim majority.


They have a mandate. Although the senate is split 50-50......the Democrat “50“ represents approx 40 million more people than the Republican “50”.....on top of the healthy presidential popular vote mandate And electoral college mandate. It was a decisive victory.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

The attack on the Capital is revealing the depth of the treasonous activity.

There is mounting evidence that "insiders" were directing the mob to the offices of the politicians, and the Trump campaign is being tied to funding some of the mob leaders.

The wife of SCOTUS Clarence Thomas is implicated in paying for buses to deliver the mob to the Capital and providing rooms for some mob leaders.

It is reported that 19 Capital police officers and 100 National Guards were infected with COVID from the riot. The numbers continue to rise.

It makes one wonder how many people in the mob will be infected and then returned home to spread it around their community.

And.......it is reported that Mitch McConnell wants Trump convicted. He wants Trump out of the Republican Party and banished from politics.

The "blowback" from this riot is far beyond what Trump or the organizers could have imagined. Americans are pissed and want them punished.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The attack on the Capital is revealing the depth of the treasonous activity.
> 
> There is mounting evidence that "insiders" were directing the mob to the offices of the politicians, and the Trump campaign is being tied to funding some of the mob leaders.


So?

There is documented evidence that Biden campaign was funding BLM rioters. We're not talking small amounts, we're talking millions.








Did Biden Staffers Contribute to a Protester-Bailout Fund?


Following the arrests of anti-police-brutality protesters, a bailout assistance organization received more than $20 million in donations over four days.




www.snopes.com





To me it's obvious that there are likely sympathies to political activists.

I do think that giving money to domestic terrorists is unacceptable, it's one thing to support their protests, it's another to support violence.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> So?


You really don't understand why this is a major problem?

Trump, and many Republicans, attempted to *illegally seize power*. They tried to overturn the democratic election to install Trump as dictator. They tried to bully states into faking their election results. This plan was orchestrated by Trump, Giuliani, and many Republicans.

Trying to seize power by corrupting/overturning an election is what dictators in third world countries do. That's why it's a problem.

BLM rioters are completely irrelevant and inconsequential here. They are a nuisance, but they did not overturn elections or try to overthrow the government, or install themselves as dictators.

Trump was very close to seizing power. This is why it's so scary. There has to be severe consequences for Trump and everyone who assisted him in this scheme.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> You really don't understand why this is a major problem?
> 
> Trump, and many Republicans, attempted to *illegally seize power*. They tried to overturn the democratic election to install Trump as dictator. They tried to bully states into faking their election results. This plan was orchestrated by Trump, Giuliani, and many Republicans.
> 
> ...



My "so" is in reference to the fact that some campaign staff are extremist sympathizers.
Sags made unsupported claims of stuff, which might be true. But really office locations are public knowledge. I'd imagine it's literally someones job to provide maps and directories of congressional offices.

Bidens campaign staff gave millions of dollars to terrorists. << Thats a bigger problem.


You don't really understand that I don't support the attempts to illegaly seize power. 
I also don't accept the attempts to illegitimately seize power. 

I agree that for the illegal actions there should be consequences. I've never said anything else.

The issue I have is the free pass that other groups, with different political affiliations get.

It was wrong to storm the capital, it was wrong to attempt to illegally overturn a lawful election.
What are you not getting here? I am not supporting any of the illegal actions. I complained about the lack of law enforcement against the riots all summer, and the lack of proper security at the capital during the riot.


I think the problem is that I do support the right exercise legal options. I might not agree, I think they might be counterproductive, but if it's legal, I guess they can.


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

@James
Really the thing that boggles my mind is how you are simultaneously 
1. Against the illegal actions of some Trump suppporters
2. Against illegal actions of Trump
3. Against legal actions of Trump supporters.
4. Against legal actions of law enforcment.
5. Not clearly against illegal actions of other groups

I'm completely in support of 1 &2, but 3-5 I don't get it.
Why are you so upset about legal acts? or so forgiving of illegal actions to those you seem sympathetic to?


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> I agree, unfounded, or poorly supported, or limited claims of voter fraud are a problem.
> 
> However I do believe that there are legitimate concerns ...
> 
> I think an election that allows significant numbers of voters to vote, without showing any form of ID, is suspect.


Then you must be happy with about two decades ago, almost no states required voter ID to more than half requiring it. 

'Course there's lots of other things to fix, like the method for determining who to remove from voter rolls. The numbers added back show the criteria are likely broader than should be. There's also that a comparison of the reason listed for removal and the source document has some reasons running at a 25% accuracy rate. Plus there are those who received removal letters that don't fit any of the criteria (especially the poll worker).




MrMatt said:


> ... To reiterate, this IS LEGAL, I'm not claiming that laws were broken, I just think voting without proving your identity or right to vote is a bad idea.


'Course it's interesting that some of the limited number of states that allow voting without ID are republican controlled.


Cheers


----------



## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Eclectic12 said:


> Then you must be happy with about two decades ago, almost no states required voter ID to more than half requiring it.
> 
> 'Course there's lots of other things to fix, like the method for determining who to remove from voter rolls. The numbers added back show the criteria are likely broader than should be. There's also that a comparison of the reason listed for removal and the source document has some reasons running at a 25% accuracy rate. Plus there are those who received removal letters that don't fit any of the criteria (especially the poll worker).
> 
> ...


I'm glad they're making progress, but it's really slow.









Voter identification laws in the United States - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I think the political affiliation is interesting.
Seems Republican states are more likely to have the more progressive voter ID requirements.

Democrat states (California is a big one) don't seem to require ID quite as much.


----------



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> @James
> Really the thing that boggles my mind is how you are simultaneously


I'm not going to go into details because you are mischaracterizing my posts.

The real mystery is why you're not outraged by a highly corrupt leader who just attempted to seize power, like a dictator does. Trump phoned Georgia's leadership, threatened them, and committed election fraud. Trump was about to fire the AG to install a loyalist, to force/threaten Georgia into compliance.

These are the acts of a dictator. The US was very nearly taken over by a dictator who tried to overrule the election results and install himself into power. And in a last attempt, his goons orchestrated a physical assault on the Capitol to use violence.

And here we are, weeks later, and some in his party _still support_ the dictatorial power grab. These are extremely dangerous people, enemies of democracy and enemies of government.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Motion: shut this thread down.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> Motion: shut this thread down.


This will be a topic of discussion for a very long time... this kind of corruption will take years to root out (this is far more severe than Nixon and one of the most severe attacks on US government in history). This clearly won't end with the election. You can shut this thread down, but there will be lots of other follow ups to discuss.

So if the General section is going to allow political discussions, then we'll have political discussions. The posts we have in this thread are completely on topic, for this thread.

However perhaps General should no longer allow political discussions. That's the other option, and I'd support that too.

Some people enjoy political discussions, others hate it. I'm not sure how to tackle that issue.


----------



## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I understand but nobody here is changing minds On either side. It’s fruitless.


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## moderator2 (Sep 20, 2017)

Money172375 said:


> I understand but nobody here is changing minds On either side. It’s fruitless.


I agree, makes sense to close a thread if there's an impasse and mainly just a recurring argument.

Closing this thraed.


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