# Europe trip and exchange fees



## tavogl (Oct 1, 2014)

Hi,

we are travelling to Spain and Italy this May-June and I am wondering what the best option is to take cash with me. I have USD$ cash and CAD$ but I really don't know if I should be exchanging here my USD$ or CAD$ to Euros here in Vancouver, or take either USD$ or CAD$ to Spain/Italy and do the exchange there? Or simply put everything on a credit card and pay the full amount at the end of the trip. I know carrying cash can be dangerous and inconvenient (I don't usually use cash) but I am trying to find the cheapest option and weight in cheap vs convenience.

Thanks!


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm going to Italy and Croatia with my daughter with the school travel club in July. We are buying our Euros and Kunas here at the bank as was told that this will give the best exchange rate though the bank has to take their cut . I probably will take some US cash as a backup to exchange over there in case we run out as Canadian dollars are usually regarded as funny money overseas. Other options are debit card linked to a checking acct with a four digit PIN or credit card. I have never used my credit card outside of Canada and the US, I seem to have an unexplained fear of doing so.


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## *PetePerfectMan* (Jan 24, 2019)

If you don't want to have huge fees. I can recommend to use TransferWise. You can convert your money into Euro with fewer fees than the bank. You can check this https://bit.ly/2tpMrPJ


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I recommend you buy enough cash to last for a few days (from your local FX provider) and then use your no FX credit card, e.g. Home Trust and several others for charges and cash advances.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

diharv said:


> I'm going to Italy and Croatia with my daughter with the school travel club in July. We are buying our Euros and Kunas here at the bank as was told that this will give the best exchange rate though the bank has to take their cut . I probably will take some US cash as a backup to exchange over there in case we run out as Canadian dollars are usually regarded as funny money overseas. Other options are debit card linked to a checking acct with a four digit PIN or credit card. I have never used my credit card outside of Canada and the US, I seem to have an unexplained fear of doing so.


Is the first time you have ever travelled outside of Canada diharv? It certainly sounds like it. 

First, do not buy Euros here and travel with cash, that is simply foolish. Second do not take US cash as a backup, that is also foolish. The best way to handle funds when travelling is with debit and credit cards. Those will give you THE best exchange rates of all. The only question then is whether the cards you use add on an exchange loading fee or not. Some do, some do not. Obviously the best are those that do not such as Home Trust as kcowan mentions.

The only cash you should leave home with is enough for any immediate cash needs on your arrival day. I generally exchange around $100-200 CAD into the local currency of the country I am going to visit. I simply do that at my local bank branch as the exchange loading fee on that small an amount is not worth bothering about. 

You too should consult the other thread I have linked above, this topic has been covered ad nauseam there. You will find misleading and incorrect information there as well as correct information, just as always happens with topics like this. You don't need companies like TransferWise for example as suggested above.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

tavogl said:


> Hi,
> 
> we are travelling to Spain and Italy this May-June and I am wondering what the best option is to take cash with me. I have USD$ cash and CAD$ but I really don't know if I should be exchanging here my USD$ or CAD$ to Euros here in Vancouver, or take either USD$ or CAD$ to Spain/Italy and do the exchange there? Or simply put everything on a credit card and pay the full amount at the end of the trip. I know carrying cash can be dangerous and inconvenient (I don't usually use cash) but I am trying to find the cheapest option and weight in cheap vs convenience.
> 
> Thanks!


Huh, my response to you that I thought I just posted, apparently did not post. So here it is again.

Why are you posting a new thread on this topic when an active thread on exactly the same topic is already here?
https://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/...g-ATM-withdrawal-fees-which-travelling-abroad


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

diharv said:


> I'm going to Italy and Croatia with my daughter with the school travel club in July. We are buying our Euros and Kunas here at the bank as was told that this will give the best exchange rate though the bank has to take their cut . I probably will take some US cash as a backup to exchange over there in case we run out as Canadian dollars are usually regarded as funny money overseas. Other options are debit card linked to a checking acct with a four digit PIN or credit card. I have never used my credit card outside of Canada and the US, I seem to have an unexplained fear of doing so.


Forget about taking CDN or US cash. If you are going to bring cash, get Euros at a money exchange place in Canada that offers better rates than the banks. Note that it is far safer to use your credit card than a debit card. If your debit card is compromised the crooks can clean out your accounts. Credit cards offer some protection against compromised cards. Not so with debit cards.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I would not dismiss the need for cash. I always travel with at least a few hundred $ in cash no matter where I go.

Credit cards are a great idea and you absolutely should use the Home Trust Preferred Visa (there is NO foreign exchange fee) but also be aware that cards can get frozen or locked out due to equipment trouble, PIN trouble, or suspected fraud by the credit card company. I have had my legitimate transactions declined during my travels, though it's rare. Debit cards can be skimmed and stolen from if used in questionable locations. When traveling, I will only use my debit card in a bank machine at a proper looking bank.

I would take some EUR and USD cash, and apply for that Home Trust Preferred card if you don't already have it. Take two credit cards with you in case one gets locked out or disabled. When overseas, try to mostly use the credit card except when cash provides a discount. Also use cash in scenarios where there tends to be a lot of fraud and cheating such as taxis and gas stations.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We find that we get a better exchange rate when we take our Canadian cash and change it in the county where we are travelling. We may buy a little at an FX store in Canada. We never buy or sell currency at the bank. Even the employees at our bank buy their currency at the FX store despite having a staff discount at the bank! There were two of them in front of me one lunchtime lined up to buy. This is what they told me.

One proviso....NEVER change money at an airport.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I actually once got very good EUR exchange rates at one of those "cash money" kinds of payday loan stores in Toronto. If you have one nearby, you might want to phone and ask if they do currency exchange.

Step 1 is to figure out how much you should ideally get. Let's say you're trying to get your hands on 200 EUR. Do a google search for: 200 EUR in CAD. The answer right now is 301.48 CAD (an ideal rate). Then ask the store the same question, how much would it cost to get 200 EUR. Make sure you look at the % difference between the two. Simply shop around and find the best rate.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

For a small amount it really does not matter. Just don't exchange at the airport. We took $1300. to Thailand this past January. The exchange rate in Bangkok was very good. Next year, if we go, we will probably take $2K.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

For a Western European country, take minimal cash and use credit cards. 3 things to be aware of:
- You need Chip & PIN credit cards, if you do not already have them (Europe switched to Chip & PIN long before North America);
- PIN must be 4 digits (When CDN banks first issued Chip & PIN cards they recommended 6 digits for security, and then found their customers' cards wouldn't work abroad);
- Many European retail stores will offer you the option of charging your bill in local currency or in your home currency. Tell them the local currency - then you will only pay the VISA exchange rate on your bill. If they charge you in CDN dollars, the exchange will be higher, as their stores/banking exchange system will charge a higher rate.

Travellers' cheques are becoming passé, because of counterfeiting and administrative costs. If you think you may need to withdraw cash abroad, look into what ATMs/banks will accept your bank (Debit) card. Or pre-load a credit card with a positive balance so you can get cash with your credit card without paying interest.

It is good advice to take 2 cards abroad, in case either VISA or Mastercard is down at a critical time, or you lose one.

In some countries like Switzerland you will often find that you can only pay for gas at the self-serve dispenser with a chip & PIN card - the staff in the kiosk will not/cannot process a purchase manually for gas. I don't know how wide-spread this practice is by now.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> In some countries like Switzerland you will often find that you can only pay for gas at the self-serve dispenser with a chip & PIN card - the staff in the kiosk will not/cannot process a purchase manually for gas. I don't know how wide-spread this practice is by now.


Came across this in a lot of rural regions of Europe, especially after hours. Some religious countries won't sell gas at all on Sunday

Maestro/Mastercard card is king in Europe. Some places it is accepted but not Visa whereas it seems more often to be reversed in NA


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

On our last driving trip in Italy (Tuscany and Umbria) we were surprised to come across numerous unmanned gas stations. They had cash machines where one inserted the Euro notes. No credit facility. The first time we used on I had to ask another customer how to use them and if they gave change. What surprised me most was that there was no attendant.


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## tavogl (Oct 1, 2014)

Thanks for the advice, I will probably take 1k euros cash with us and use my wifes Avion credit card for the rest of the trip, I think that one does not have FX fees but I will double check.

Thanks


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

jdc said:


> Forget about taking CDN or US cash. If you are going to bring cash, get Euros at a money exchange place in Canada that offers better rates than the banks. Note that it is far safer to use your credit card than a debit card. If your debit card is compromised the crooks can clean out your accounts. Credit cards offer some protection against compromised cards. Not so with debit cards.


Have you never heard of having a debit card that accesses an account with limited funds in it? As for 'crooks', have you never heard of one who sticks a knife in your face and asks you to tell him your credit card PIN number? Have you never heard your credit card company tell you that if you give your PIN number to someone else, your on the hook for the money they put on the card?

You're using what seems like a simple argument if you say it fast enough but does not hold up under scrutiny. If give you my debit card PIN number believe me, you will be able to access far less money than if I give you my credit card PIN.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> We find that we get a better exchange rate when we take our Canadian cash and change it in the county where we are travelling. We may buy a little at an FX store in Canada. We never buy or sell currency at the bank. Even the employees at our bank buy their currency at the FX store despite having a staff discount at the bank! There were two of them in front of me one lunchtime lined up to buy. This is what they told me.
> 
> One proviso....NEVER change money at an airport.


Umm, while I agree you will get a better exchange rate, I would never suggest travelling with large amounts of cash. The downside risks far outweigh the difference in exchange rates.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> On our last driving trip in Italy (Tuscany and Umbria) we were surprised to come across numerous unmanned gas stations. They had cash machines where one inserted the Euro notes. No credit facility. The first time we used on I had to ask another customer how to use them and if they gave change.  What surprised me most was that there was no attendant.


I first came across an unattended gas station in France around 20 years ago. Europeans have this strange idea that everyone should have days off.

On another occasion also in France, we ended up in a small rural town on a less travelled road and stopped for lunch at a nice riverside restaurant. After enjoying lunch with a glass of wine, we decided it would be a nice place to stop for the evening as well. So I asked the restaurant owner for a suggestion for a hotel. He gave me directions to one nearby. We drove to the hotel and found it locked up! So back we went to the restaurant and spoke to the owner there again. He gave his head a 'gallic' smack and said, 'ah yes, of course, it is Sunday, Francois will be at home with his family. Just a minute I will call him and ask what you should do.'

Francois lived just around the corner and so he walked over and sat down with us to have a glass of wine. He explained that Sunday was his day with his family and so the hotel was locked even though there were guests. The guests simply had a code to use in the door lock. He gave us the code, told us to take any room with the key in the door (as they were the available rooms) and he would see us in the morning. We went to the hotel, used the code to get in and then picked a room. In the morning we went down for breakfast and then found Francois at reception and paid our bill and went on our way.

Trumps the unattended gas station.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

tavogl said:


> Thanks for the advice, I will probably take 1k euros cash with us and use my wifes Avion credit card for the rest of the trip, I think that one does not have FX fees but I will double check.
> 
> Thanks


Walking around with 1,000 Euros in your pocket, yup that sounds like a smart idea.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have had similar lodging experiences in Santorini, Riomaggiore, and this past winter in Prachuap Khiri Khan (thailand). Not so unusual when you stay in small inns, B&B's or in out of the way places. All three times a neighbour had to phone around and locate the owner.


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> Have you never heard of having a debit card that accesses an account with limited funds in it? As for 'crooks', have you never heard of one who sticks a knife in your face and asks you to tell him your credit card PIN number? Have you never heard your credit card company tell you that if you give your PIN number to someone else, your on the hook for the money they put on the card?
> 
> You're using what seems like a simple argument if you say it fast enough but does not hold up under scrutiny. If give you my debit card PIN number believe me, you will be able to access far less money than if I give you my credit card PIN.


And have you ever heard of a low limit credit card? 

Your debit or credit card is far more likely to be compromised by a skimmer on a machine or a corrupt employee or camera somewhere that having to give the PIN up to someone under force. 

In those cases, your credit card offers more protection that your debit card does.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Ironically, I have had to help a family member held at gun point that had to try and give up their pin. The low life picked a little old lady in the morning. Even though she gave the PIN number, she was reimbursed everything by the bank. 

Our credit limit is high, and i have a high bank account balance, both would suck to be cleared out, though having our cash cleared be a bigger impact. When we travel, we bring a lower limit credit card, and transfer a lot of our fund into a different account not linked to my bank card. I am still able do my online banking and move things around if needed but it lowers my risks in case my card gets skimmed or stolen. 

On a side note, to lower my exchange rate and for security reasons, I do carry ALOT of cash when travelling. I have never had problems with cash or feeling unsafe with it. Even when I was travelling Greece and was an attempt to rob and mugged me, they managed to get my credit card but I was still able to use my cash that I keep separate to get me through until I had it settled. I have also had to use cash on more than one occasion that the machines were down but they could only accept cash. This was in airports too. 

Cash is king when you are travelling if you are smart about it. If you are not comfortable, then no fix credit cards, and debit cards are fine too. It could be I have this attitude because my parents always told me to have enough cash my wallet to get a cab ride home from where ever I may be. That also included when I was travelling, enough money to get a plane in cash. Weird, but like I said, I have had to use my cash in large amounts on more than one occasion, so I still stick npby that. 

In terms of ordering Foreign Fx, check the rates at the bank and at the currency exchange. I was supposed that it was cheaper at my bank for Colombian peso by a huge margin. It was still cheaper to get it when I arrived though. If you do order on Canada, specify the denominations you want. I ordered a million peso, cause I wanted to be a millionaire in Colombia (it was $500 Cdn). They gave me them in the equivalent of 1 and 2 thousand pesos. It was ridiculous. It was the only time I had problems separating out the money in safe way because it was so think. I did consider ‘making it rain’ with a million peso just because each one was worth less than a buck.


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## tavogl (Oct 1, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> tavogl said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the advice, I will probably take 1k euros cash with us and use my wifes Avion credit card for the rest of the trip, I think that one does not have FX fees but I will double check.
> ...


Lol.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Is the first time you have ever travelled outside of Canada diharv? It certainly sounds like it.
> 
> First, do not buy Euros here and travel with cash, that is simply foolish. Second do not take US cash as a backup, that is also foolish. The best way to handle funds when travelling is with debit and credit cards. Those will give you THE best exchange rates of all. The only question then is whether the cards you use add on an exchange loading fee or not. Some do, some do not. Obviously the best are those that do not such as Home Trust as kcowan mentions.
> 
> ...


No . Eight times to South America ,six trips to Central America , handful of trips to Mexico and DR . Born in US and travelled extensively there . Every one of the Latin American trips has been all cash funded and although I take a lot each time , it is not all on my person at all times . I guess my lack of trust in using debit or credit in Latin America correlates with the rep of some of those countries I visited where crime and corruption is rampant . I have never been to Europe but we are only taking what amount of cash the trip organizers are recommending . I imagine that I may be a bit more relaxed about bringing out the credit card if the need arises.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our experience is that exchange rates are worst at Canadian banks. The foreign exchange stores in Canada are next in line. 

The best rates we have consistently found is foreign exchange rates in the country we are visiting, but NOT in any airport location. We have met some people who actually change CAD into USD, and then exchange it into another currency that as they travel. No need to do this in most places.

It is not unusual for us to have anywhere from $500 to $1500 in cash. Never a problem through years of travel. Of course, we don't flash it around and only carry a small amount in our pockets. There are some places that do not take credit or debit-they do not have the facility.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> It is not unusual for us to have anywhere from $500 to $1500 in cash. Never a problem through years of travel. Of course, we don't flash it around and only carry a small amount in our pockets. There are some places that do not take credit or debit-they do not have the facility.


Same here


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Just as a social behaviour observation, I have noticed in my European trips that some of the locals (in the stores) tend to carry more cash than is common in Canada. Whether this is cultural habit; the result of high ATM transaction fees; high credit card transaction fees; a desire not to have their purchasers tracked by marketers; or more under-the-table dealings, I don't know. But it does seem counter to the trend, such as Sweden where they are trying to go completely cashless.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Just as a social behaviour observation, I have noticed in my European trips that some of the locals (in the stores) tend to carry more cash than is common in Canada. Whether this is cultural habit; the result of high ATM transaction fees; high credit card transaction fees; a desire not to have their purchasers tracked by marketers; or more under-the-table dealings, I don't know. But it does seem counter to the trend, such as Sweden where they are trying to go completely cashless.


There's still a lot of small family businesses in Europe and they will mark up the price if you want to pay with a card to cover the transaction fees (small business that caters to locals not tourists) Say you are getting a lot of repairs done on a car by a small mechanic.. 3% is a significant fee.

At restaurants in tourist places of course they will accept cards (and their prices reflect tourism) while in smaller restaurants that cater more to locals the cultural way is to pay seems more often cash rounded up to simplify payment (and the menu shows the actual price including tax/gratuity so it's easy to just pay cash) This speeds up and simplifies the process significantly vs calling for the bill, waiting for the bill to be calculated, calculating tip/dividing bills, handing over cards, waiting for the cards to be charged, waiting for the receipt to sign bs. I imagine restaurants can make more money by recycling the tables faster too

Europe has much better electronic banking with free instant secure transfers and withdrawals so maybe Sweden has done the cashless without the high transaction fees? In some countries they won't give you a receipt unless you ask so I imagine the cash payments does involve a lot of tax evasion in certain places


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## jdc (Feb 1, 2016)

Then there is this, a multi-currency Visa debit card from CIBC / Air Canada, 10 currencies. Pay the going rate and ATM fees. Not for everyone, but an option:

https://www.cibc.com/en/personal-banking/prepaid/ac-conversion-card.html


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

jdc said:


> And have you ever heard of a low limit credit card?
> 
> Your debit or credit card is far more likely to be compromised by a skimmer on a machine or a corrupt employee or camera somewhere that having to give the PIN up to someone under force.
> 
> In those cases, your credit card offers more protection that your debit card does.


Nonsense. If my debit card is skimmed, they do not get the PIN number jdc or do you not understand how 'skimming' works? Even 'shimmers' don't get a PIN number. But let's suppose a criminal somehow does get my PIN with a camera because I am too stupid to cover the keyboard when entering my PIN. Whether it is my debit card or my credit card, the 'protection' I have is the same. The issuer guarantees to refund your money as long as you met your obligations. You can see an example of those on page 14 of the following. https://www.cibc.com/content/dam/personal_banking/ways_to_bank/pdfs/8917-debit-card-en.pdf Those apply to BOTH credit and debit cards equally.

Using a credit card with a low limit is no different than using a debit card with access to an account with a low amount sitting in it. Duh. Using a credit card or debit card from a card issuer who gives you a 'protection from fraudulent transactions guarantee' provides the same protection from either. So just HOW is it you think a credit card offers you more protection?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Our experience is that exchange rates are worst at Canadian banks. The foreign exchange stores in Canada are next in line.
> 
> The best rates we have consistently found is foreign exchange rates in the country we are visiting, but NOT in any airport location. We have met some people who actually change CAD into USD, and then exchange it into another currency that as they travel. No need to do this in most places.
> 
> It is not unusual for us to have anywhere from $500 to $1500 in cash. Never a problem through years of travel. Of course, we don't flash it around and only carry a small amount in our pockets. There are some places that do not take credit or debit-they do not have the facility.


There is no question that exchanging funds in a country that is BUYING them from you rather than in one that is SELLING funds to you will get you a better deal. It's simple really if we think about it. A seller always has to charge more to a buyer, it's called a profit. So when you are 'selling' CAD in another country, the buyer (local bank, etc.) has to offer you a profit or why would you sell? When someone in Canada buys say Euros before a trip, they are the buyer and must pay the seller a profit if they expect the seller to sell to them. So the bank is Canada 'sells' to you at a profit while the bank in another country 'buys' from you. Most people have difficulty seeing the bank in another country as not 'selling' them local currency.

It is always better to not buy and always sell currency. Most travellers just don't understand the difference that's all. They don't do it often enough or for large enough amounts overall to start questioning what a few percent difference can mean. And that's OK if someone goes on a package holiday most of which is paid up front in their own local currency and they then only spend a few hundred dollars wherever they go, using their cards or foreign cash they bought before leaving home.

But for anyone travelling frequently to other countries or for extended periods of time and in ways that result in them exchange large amounts of funds, it becomes much more important to understand how best to handle their funds.

Regarding buying cash on arrival, I agree, never in an airport is a good general rule although it is not an absolute. How much cash someone is comfortable walking around with will obviously vary by individual. My own approach is to withdraw enough for what I consider will be a likely amount of cash I will spend over the course of 3-5 days. When speaking about Europe as this thread is, almost every purchase we make is done using a credit card, not cash. 

But every travel situation is different and often depends on the country/ies someone will visit. If someone wants to go see the gorillas in Rwanda for example, they will find that they must pay in USD cash. NO other payment is accepted. For W. Europe, cards are accepted pretty much everywhere the average person is likely to visit with no problems if they have a true Chip and PIN card as all Canadians cards are nowadays. 

So what someone who visits Thailand does may differ from what someone who visits Switzerland does for example in terms of what cards to use and how much cash they may need to have in their pocket when walking around and deciding to buy an ice cream cone. 

This thread is about Europe and so what anyone does in a country that doesn't take cards is irrelevant to THIS thread. On a recent trip to Switzerland, here is how our funds were handled.

Airfare paid by credit card online in CAD using our normal bank issued credit card. No exchange to be considered obviously.
Hotel, 10 night stay paid locally in Swiss Francs using a credit card that charges no exchange loading. I highly doubt anyone is going to pay a $4,000 dollar hotel bill in cash.

It is worth noting here for the OP that it is very common in Europe to be given the choice of paying in local funds or in your home country funds as has been mentioned here already. This is known as Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) and you should understand it. Here is a good explanation. https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffreymorrison/2014/07/30/pay-in-local-or-home-currency/#61f9a3293307

Back to my Switzerland example now. Almost all purchases and payments while in Switzerland were done using a credit card with no exchange loading costs. On arrival we had 100 CHF (Swiss Francs) we had bought in Canada. I don't worry about 'buying' costing me more for that first 100 of local currency since it is only a couple of dollars. I want that first 100 to cover a taxi to the hotel on arrival without having the hassle of having to find a place to 'sell' some CAD using my debit card as a first priority.

During our 10 day stay, I visited an ATM twice to 'sell' some CAD and get 200 CHF each time, using a debit card that DOES charge us 3.5% exchange loading.

So on a vacation that cost a total of roughly $12k CAD, only $660 CAD was ever in local Swiss Francs cash. I would suggest that is a typical example of a visit to Europe by a Canadian in terms of how funds are spent overall. Mostly on credit cards whether they use one that charges exchange loading or not and with very little cash needed at all relative to the total cost.

Any traveller has to look at what is available to them in terms of cards with or without exchange loading and then what countries they intend to visit. Then, just how much will they actually spend in local currency when they get where they are going. As I said, if it is a package and they will only spend a very small amount of money in local currency, they don't even need to think about it as the amount to be saved will be quite small. If it is a significant amount then they need to educate themselves and look for the best way to handle things such as finding the right cards with no exchange loading added.

On my Switzerland real life example, roughly half of the total spend was airfare paid in CAD in Canada and half in local currency (including hotel and meals which are the major expenses). So paying a Canadian bank 3.5% using their cards that charge exchange loading would have cost an extra $6k x 3.5% = $210. Not the end of the world if it was a once a year trip. If using a credit card that did not add exchange loading and using a debit card that did add exchange loading, to withdraw the $660 cash, the 3.5% on that cash withdrawal amount would have been $23. Hardly worth worrying about on a $12k trip. Even if we had paid both the $210 + $23 = $233 by using both credit and debit cards that charged 3.5% exchange loading, that too would be hardly worth worrying about on a $12k spend in my world.

My point is it is always dependent on total spend, how often someone spends such amounts and where they are going to travel to, that should be looked at by the traveller to decide which is the best way to handle their funds on their travels.

For example, I know you are aware ian of people who post in this forum on this subject and will tell people to 'pre-load' a credit card and use it to make the $660 ATM withdrawals in my example as a way to save the $23 in exchange loading. I find that really not worth the bother at all. My thinking would be more like, 'if you have to worry about $23, you really shouldn't be spending $12K on a 10 day vacation.'


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have stayed in numerous small inns and B&B's in Italy, Greece, and Turkey that only took cash. And one or two in Croatia. Two years ago, when we rented cars on several islands in Greece, they would accept credit card for checking in but make it clear that they wanted cash when the car was returned damage free and the account was settled. 25E a throw on three seperate islands.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

jdc said:


> Then there is this, a multi-currency Visa debit card from CIBC / Air Canada, 10 currencies. Pay the going rate and ATM fees. Not for everyone, but an option:
> 
> https://www.cibc.com/en/personal-banking/prepaid/ac-conversion-card.html


Here comes the 'pre-paid' card brigade. Please don't suggest to anyone that they use such cards when travelling UNLESS they cannot get even a 'normal' bank debit card jdc. The only people who should use such cards are those without a credit rating that will get them normal debit/credit cards. A student for example who has no credit rating yet.

Figure it out. You take money out of your bank account and put it on a pre-paid card like the one you link. Do you think that the issuer does not plan to make a profit for providing you with that card? Notice how on the card you link, they say, 'no fees' and that includes, 'no conversion fees when you make a purchase.' Sounds good when you say it fast enough doesn't it.

But in fact, you DO pay conversion fees when you LOAD the card. So how does that sound like a good idea compared to someone who uses say a Home Trust credit card to make purchases when HT does not charge any conversion fees when you use it? 

Simply put, pre-paid credit cards offer NO advantage to the traveller over using normal cards but they do make the issuers more profits.

I consider pre-paid cards to be in the same league as Dynamic Currency Conversion. They both prey on the uninformed traveller.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> We have stayed in numerous small inns and B&B's in Italy, Greece, and Turkey that only took cash. And one or two in Croatia.


Yes, but let's be clear ian, you travel in a certain way on a certain kind of budget. You will not find a hotel in Greece (I used to live there) that charges $300 per night and doesn't take credit cards. 

Again, it depends on the individual as to what makes the most sense for THEIR travels. I'll see your cash B&Bs and raise you hotels that in fact refuse to take cash as payment at all! They only accept cards and it is becoming more common every year. For example, read here: https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-hotels-accept-cash-payments-any-longer

As in my example of Switzerland, would you really expect a hotel to insist on cash if my bill is $4k? Or as the link I just gave here, why a hotel would not want to accept cash and insist on a card. Can you imagine checking in to a hotel and them saying to you, 'oh yeah, we only take cash, you can pay us the $4k you are likely to spend with us during your stay, at check-out'. I doubt you will find that many hotels, that trusting.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Airfare paid by credit card online in CAD using our normal bank issued credit card. No exchange to be considered obviously.
> Hotel, 10 night stay paid locally in Swiss Francs using a credit card that charges no exchange loading. I highly doubt anyone is going to pay a $4,000 dollar hotel bill in cash.


If you're flying on a foreign airline, it is typically significantly cheaper to pay in their currency ideally direct to them vs a travel website. If paying a travel website (to use multiple airlines for example) I play around with the currencies and the price varies drastically. Lately CAD has been good but not always the case. They know that most customers don't think of this and probably make their money here

Many hotels nowadays require a credit card with a certain limit so they can put a pre authorized "hold" on the card in case of damages. For some work trip I secure rooms for colleagues and let them swipe their card on arrival. Weeks later I get an erroneous charge which they can easily reverse, however you are left with 7% foreign exchange fee from 2 conversions on a large hotel charge that nobody wants to refund


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> If you're flying on a foreign airline, it is typically significantly cheaper to pay in their currency ideally direct to them vs a travel website. If paying a travel website (to use multiple airlines for example) I play around with the currencies and the price varies drastically. Lately CAD has been good but not always the case. They know that most customers don't think of this and probably make their money here
> 
> Many hotels nowadays require a credit card with a certain limit so they can put a pre authorized "hold" on the card in case of damages. For some work trip I secure rooms for colleagues and let them swipe their card on arrival. Weeks later I get an erroneous charge which they can easily reverse, however you are left with 7% foreign exchange fee from 2 conversions on a large hotel charge that nobody wants to refund


I only book airline seats directly with the airline and hotels directly with the hotel. I never use travel agencies or third party online sites for anything. I do not believe in paying middlemen if I can avoid it. 

On a side note regarding hotels since you have brought it up m3s, I find hotel bookings interesting these days. Time was when no hotel wanted a pre-authorized hold or had any cancellation policy other than 1 night's stay being charged to your credit card if you cancelled after 6pm on the day of your reservation. Are you old enough to remember that?

I will not pr-pay any hotel and that is another reason to avoid third party bookings as many of them want you to pre-pay. Often they also quote their prices as 'no cancellation, no refund'. I only book hotels by phoning directly to the hotel reception desk. I will give my card number to confirm the reservation but will not accept any cancellation period of more than 24 hours. In the example I gave of my recent trip, the hotel quoted me a price but with a 48 hour cancellation and payment of the entire stay if cancelled in less than that 48 hours. I simply said I would not accept that but would accept a 24 hour cancellation and one night's charge if cancelled in less than 24 hours. They agreed without hesitation. You can't negotiate with third parties.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I sometimes wonder if these pay in advance or non refundable or partly refundable fees are imposed by the third party agency. 

We often use third party or tripadvisor site to locate suitable accomodation. Once we do our practice, when possible, is to contact the property direct. Usually two things happen. The first is that the non refundable business vanishes. Second is that we often end up with a better room and often a breakfast. This past Feb we booked a resort in Thailand for two night on a booking site. Got there, wanted a bungalow instead of a room so we paid the upgrade. Then we wanted to buy another 5 nights direct. The premium bungalow was priced the same as the room on the third party site. Cash only or 3 percent adder for cc. No sweat...happy to pay cash. We now have their particulars and will book direct if we return next winter. The other benefit is quite often when we book direct there is an offer from them to meet us and provide transportation from the ferry, train or bus station.

We have also found differences in pricing and T's and C's between third party bookers. Usually between Agoda and Booking. Also, sometimes differences in accommodation options, cancellations, etc.

But we also booked a hotel in Hobart this past winter. The hotel site and the Booking site were both quite a bit higher than the Expedia price. We emailed the hotel and they stuck to the rate so we did Expedia. I assume Expedia must a pre purchased a bunch of rooms to sell. We were told that Booking does this as well at certain properties from time to time.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I was talking about the pre-authorized hold that most hotels require to secure rooms. It is transparent to the vast majority but I have an app that instantly notifies me of pre-authorized holds. This is what allows you to pre-book and post-pay for rooms.

I've been to many hotels where the receptionist didn't have the ability to match 3rd party app prices like booking/expedia and if I'm looking for a room "now" I don't care about cancellations. For cancellation you usually pay a small extra on third party apps for 24 hr cancellation. It just depends on the situation whether I book direct or through 3rd party apps. 3rd party apps are very convenient for single night stays while travelling through or the first few nights before you find the better locations in person. I've been to remote places where they don't even list on 3rd party apps you just have to spot them in person, and these locations can be great value.

For flights if you book direct you will probably have a higher priority when a flight is cancelled but again it depends if you take cheapest non-flex price or not. 3rd party apps let you book multi-airline flights.. otherwise you'd have to re-check your luggage


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our credit card tells us by placing the hold into the pending file. The charge has been approved but not processed. It depreciates or utilizes our card's credit limit. Once in a while we will end up with a pending charge on our account for several days even after leaving the hotel. 

It is one reason why we always want a higher credit limit on our travel card/no fee fx card. Especially when we are renting cars. The Home Trust came with 5K. We have had it moved up to 15K. Car rentals, plus the possibility of buying a cruise are the reasons why we need the headroom. But, at least we can see all of the pendings simply by logging in to our account. Sometimes the pending on some foreign purchases sit there for four or five days before moving down to the statement of account.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I sometimes wonder if these pay in advance or non refundable or partly refundable fees are imposed by the third party agency.
> 
> We often use third party or tripadvisor site to locate suitable accomodation. Once we do our practice, when possible, is to contact the property direct. Usually two things happen. The first is that the non refundable business vanishes. Second is that we often end up with a better room and often a breakfast. This past Feb we booked a resort in Thailand for two night on a booking site. Got there, wanted a bungalow instead of a room so we paid the upgrade. Then we wanted to buy another 5 nights direct. The premium bungalow was priced the same as the room on the third party site. Cash only or 3 percent adder for cc. No sweat...happy to pay cash. We now have their particulars and will book direct if we return next winter. The other benefit is quite often when we book direct there is an offer from them to meet us and provide transportation from the ferry, train or bus station.
> 
> ...


In travel forums you will find countless threads on the differences between using 3rd party sites vs. booking direct ian and plenty of people telling you why one is better than the other. I've grown tired of responding to them in travel forums.

People will swear by one OTA over all others, not even realizing that in fact most are owned by just TWO companies. https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...3/04/airline-mergers-expedia-orbitz/24319965/

I look at it very simply. Any time you add a third party to an equation, you have to add a profit for that third party and that has to be paid for by the buyer. There's now way around that. Simple common sense (if it were in fact common) tells us that the lowest possible price can only be between two parties, not three. But people persist in believing that they can get a lower price using a third party. What they are really saying if they thought about it, is that they do not have confidence in their own ability to negotiate with the hotel directly.

Booking sites are parasites. They actually add no real value to the transaction, they simply take a profit off the guest and the hotel. In the past few years, many individual hotels and chain hotels have started fighting back with 'best price guarantees' offering to match or beat any price you find online.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...k-your-stay-directly-with-the-hotel/83307734/

https://resmyhotel.com/advantages-booking-directly-hotels/

What you may have run into in your Hobart example is a case of 'Rate Parity' agreements. They may have an agreement with Booking that does not permit them to offer a lower price than that offered by Booking. Rate Parity is complicated and varies by country as well. Here is an explanation to start with it you want to try and understand it.
https://businessblog.trivago.com/rate-parity-hotel-industry-status/ 

It is most definitely not good for the hotels but when an OTA says, 'sign or we won't list you', it is very hard for a hotel to say no to them when such high percentages of all bookings are done through third party parasites.
https://www.traveldailynews.com/pos...-bookings-which-is-the-leading-trend-for-2018


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> For flights if you book direct you will probably have a higher priority when a flight is cancelled but again it depends if you take cheapest non-flex price or not. 3rd party apps let you book multi-airline flights.. otherwise you'd have to re-check your luggage


Whether you need to re-check luggage or not has nothing to do with 3rd party apps m3s. It is about Interline Agreements. 
https://onemileatatime.com/interline-codeshare-alliances-joint-ventures/

So for a recent example, I booked a Air Canada flight connecting to a British Airways flight in Toronto. I booked the entire itinerary directly through British Airways, not any 3rd party. They have an 'interline agreement' and so the bags did not have to be picked up in Toronto and checked in again. I don't know where you got the idea that an app let's you do something that the airlines haven't agreed to do between each other, regardless of how you book your flights. I suspect you are thinking of if you book separate tickets for each flight. One ticket to Toronto and another ticket from Toronto to the UK for my example. That would mean picking up and re-checking your bag but using a third party to book both flights simply means you have booked both flights on one ticket. You can do that just as easily by booking directly with either of the two airlines in my example.

What I did was ask Air Canada for a price for the trip and then ask BA for a price for the trip. As it happened, BA was willing to offer me a lower price than AC did. Right after I told the guy I was talking to at BA, what price AC had offered me. If you think about it, my domestic flight on AC was worth $x to AC so their interest in giving me a price was limited by that. My transatlantic flight on BA was obviously worth more than my domestic AC flight cost so BA had a greater interest in getting my booking than AC did. They had more to gain. That's why I asked AC first and then told BA to beat the AC price. It's called negotiating. 

But everybody knows you can't negotiate with an airline right? Wrong.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> They had more to gain. That's why I asked AC first and then told BA to beat the AC price. It's called negotiating.
> 
> But everybody knows you can't negotiate with an airline right? Wrong.


We ask our travel agent to do that work. She will beat any price we get or let us book directly. She is well worth the pittance she charges us. And she has access to many deals that we cannot see. We originally started using her to book points travel. But she often gets prices that make no sense to use points for.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our experience is that dealing with the airline is sometimes not the best option. 

Two years ago we did a matrixit airline search for our winter trip to Thailand. One very attractive option came up on AC. It was Calgary to Bangkok with only one stop instead of the usual two. Eighteen hours instead of 23. Leaving at noon instead of 7AM. Matrix gave us the flights, fare code and fare-$1050. A few hundred more than we usually paid but worth it to us.

We immediately went on the AC site. Same flight was $1500. Called AC. Gave them the details, including fare code. They had the route. But it was $1500. Told them about the $1050. They would do nothing. Tried two other on line sites. I think expedia and travelocity. Same $1500 cost. Finally tried Orbitz. They had the flight. Same flights, same fare codes. We booked immediately and selected our seats. Their fare was in USD, but it was t$1050 converted to CAD.

A person in the travel business told us he was not surprised by this. Not all sites use the same data base, hence sometimes prices and routings can be different. 

Coming back that year we tried to make an AC reservation HNL to Calgary while we were in Australia. The AC website gave us a price. When we went to book the price was not there. Called their booking centre and the agent essentially shrugged and said too bad. Called back an hour later, got another agent and explained the issue to him. He want away, came back, and booked our fare at the web price.

Last fall, going Halifax-Dublin return expedia was $140 pp less expensive than booking the identical flight on Westjet. Same dates, same flights. Called Westjet. They would not reprice so we booked with expedia.

You just never know until you shop around.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

kcowan said:


> We ask our travel agent to do that work. She will beat any price we get or let us book directly. She is well worth the pittance she charges us. And she has access to many deals that we cannot see. We originally started using her to book points travel. But she often gets prices that make no sense to use points for.


Agreed about the value of travel agents. If its a relative simple trip/flight we will do our own research and will go either directly with the airline, use points or a third party depending on the scenario. We did a trip to south & central America last summer. Our travel agent did our tours, flights while there, and we did our own directly through the airline. Well, the airline f'd up beyond belief, left my family in the US, sold our flight to another family, and so many other things. Even though I didn't book the flight through our agent she was able to look at the back end reservation system and pin down which airline we should be working with. They kept blaming each other. She did a lot of calling on our behalf and helped up find another alternative, we didn't even book the flight with her. Then she contacted the tour company and rearranged our pick up for our delayed flight. On one leg of our tour, there was a problem with the tour guide not showing up, the tour company we couldn't get ahold of. My travel agent again, got ahold of everyone, got the guide there, and even managed to get up a refund for the day.

When I am travelling and not familiar with the area or country, our travel agent has helped up many times. Well worth paying a little more. Negotiating the best price with the airline is not the only consideration.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Our experience is that dealing with the airline is sometimes not the best option.
> 
> Two years ago we did a matrixit airline search for our winter trip to Thailand. One very attractive option came up on AC. It was Calgary to Bangkok with only one stop instead of the usual two. Eighteen hours instead of 23. Leaving at noon instead of 7AM. Matrix gave us the flights, fare code and fare-$1050. A few hundred more than we usually paid but worth it to us.
> 
> ...


There are always exceptions ian and just as I referenced the Rate Parity issues that exist with hotels and OTAs earlier, there are agreements between OTAs and airlines as well as just getting an airline employee who simply isn't that good at their job and don't know how to match a price if asked, even if they could! It's easier to just say, 'sorry our price is $1500 or whatever. But I do agree that it never hurts to shop around.

I would add though that price is not the only factor worth considering. I rarely, in fact make that never, book the lowest possible price. I won't book any non-cancellable/non-changeable flights for starters. I would also rather pay more for a direct, non-stop flight. I try not to have to fly cattle class (some flights are all one class like some domestic flights for example). Comparing apples to apples, then I want the best price I can find like anyone else but ONLY if it is apples to apples. I think too many people today make their decisions based on price as their primary criteria and don't pay attention to all the other factors like convenience and comfort. I also believe that IF you have a problem, there is no denying that involving any middleman in an equation can make getting a solution just that much harder. Middlemen are masters at playing 'ping-pong' with you.

I also will not fly on certain airlines. Air Canada Rouge is one of those. No matter what price they offer, it ain't gonna happen as they say. I have found it very annoying that Air Canada have turned over quite a few of their flight routes to Rouge and no longer fly a full service AC flight at all.

Regarding travel agents, I do think there are some travel agents who know what they are doing. The question is how many of them and in regards to what. They may be knowledgeable about what they have personal experience of and if they have experience of S. America as Plugging Along refers to, then they may well know how to help you and be willing to do so. But the same travel agent may be of little use if you want to know which area and which hotel to stay in if you plan a hiking vacation in Switzerland say. In other words, there is no more likelyhood of a 'one size fits all' travel agent being found than there is with anything else. Travel agents who specialize in certain things will be better than a 'normal' travel agency who do not specialize.

So, yes some are useful but I have found that in general, my own knowlege is greater than most travel agencies staff. Few have much real experience of independent travel with no tours, no package vacations, etc. Go off the 'beaten path' and they're lost without a compass. At least I have a compass. LOL


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Even though we have traveled extensively, almost entirely independent and usually spontaneously, we still consider our knowledge to be very limited. We continue to meet others who give us the benefit of their experiences and knowledge that invariably surpasses our own. Same for travel web forums. We put it down the the speed at which the travel industry is changing.

One constant seems to be that there are no longer any norms. And it pays to listen to others and scan the web. I cannot imagine how a travel agent can be proficient in his/her job unless there is specialization. We find that it certain instances it is far better to search out data, and often book, in destination countries for hotels, air, cruises, the lot. Often we get better information, better pricing, better service. The web and VOIP has eliminated the distance issue. No wonder so many bricks and mortar stores have gone out of business.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Even though we have traveled extensively, almost entirely independent and usually spontaneously, we still consider our knowledge to be very limited. We continue to meet others who give us the benefit of their experiences and knowledge that invariably surpasses our own. Same for travel web forums. We put it down the the speed at which the travel industry is changing.
> 
> One constant seems to be that there are no longer any norms. And it pays to listen to others and scan the web. I cannot imagine how a travel agent can be proficient in his/her job unless there is specialization. We find that it certain instances it is far better to search out data, and often book, in destination countries for hotels, air, cruises, the lot. Often we get better information, better pricing, better service. The web and VOIP has eliminated the distance issue. No wonder so many bricks and mortar stores have gone out of business.


Agreed ian, only specialist agencies can have more experience/knowledge than you can find for yourself. Some exist that cover various categories. For example, you can find a travel agency in Toronto that specializes in booking travel to Greece simply because there is a large enough Greek community in Toronto to support that. Other specialist agencies exist for particular types of travel like cruises and you may find an agent who has been on every cruise ship afloat. Agencies like STA Travel cater to backpackers. But in general, most average travel agencies and agents have limited knowledge.


I forgot to mention yesterday, the impact of Dynamic Pricing on airfares and hotels. That alone means that there are as you say, 'no norms'. There are still plenty of people who do not know of or understand what Dynamic Pricing is. Simply put, complex algorithms are used to determine what price to charge and the prices change constantly in REAL time. So someone can look at a flight and see X price only to find that 30 minutes later that price has changed up or down. It happens that fast and as I say, constantly.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/airline-pricing-secrets/index.html

There is no way to answer the question often asked, 'how do I know if I got the best price?' My advice is to do some research, determine what the average price seems to be, decide what price you are willing to pay and when you see a price that fits, book it. Then never go back and look again. Otherwise, it's like chasing a stock price up and down daily and trying to buy at the lowest price in history. You are as likely to end up paying more as you are to end up paying less.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Dynamic pricing has hit frequent flyer members hard. Delta, AA etc have all moved or are moving in that direction. The move essentially reduces the value, on average, of any points that you have in their respective programs. It is one reason why we emptied our AA a few years ago, our Delta points two months ago, and are very close to doing the same with our Aeroplan points. We switched primarily to a cash back travel card and it has worked well for us over the past eighteen months. 

We have bid for Priceline hotels one day and had no luck. Next day we have bid the same or a lower price been thrilled with the result. We have found over the years that some hotels change their Priceline or Hotwire pricing very late at night or very early in the morning. Bidding as late or as early as possible seems to get us better success rates. This has been verified on blogs by a few folks who were in the industry. Cannot say the same about air fares. We have had amazing airfares three months out and 10 days out. Even during a few peak travel periods.

We are doing some preliminary shopping for a fall trip. When we are in a position to know if our personal schedules will work we will be in a position to hit the buy button when our price shows up. Difficult to do this if you see what you think may be a good price and then do the research. By the time you get back to it the fare could have disappeared or increased. We certainly do not wait for the best price possible (who really knows what that will be) but we do wait for what we consider to be our target price. And if it does not show up we always have a plan B and a plan C. Retirement affords us this luxury.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Personally I have no interest in booking 'blind' ian. I see the downsides as far outweighing any upsides.
https://www.tripsavvy.com/budget-travel-guide-to-priceline-459080

A major reason for my not being interested in them is that I rarely book anything for just one night. You can put up with a lot for just one night but not for multiple nights in a row. When we travel, we use the Rule of Threes as a guide. That says, 'never stay in a place for less than 3 full days/4 nights unless it is just an overnight stop between A and B.'

Note the 'less than', it is a minimum and note the 4 nights, that is about counting time. The more you move, the less time you actually spend IN places obviously. Many people fail to understand that for some strange reason. So you see typical trips to Europe for example where they will visit 10 cities in 14 days. In fact, they don't spend enough time in any one place to see/do much of anything. Yet, those doing this will often say that their goal is, 'to see and do as much as possible' in the time they have available. But they confuse the word 'much' with the word 'many'. They are not syonymous.

The way to see/do as much as possible is to spend as much time as possible IN places, not in BETWEEN places. If you were to use the Rule of 3s to the letter, in fact it would result in 25% of your time being travel days, not days IN a place. That's why it is a minimum. Most people for example would say that if you are going to visit say Rome or Paris, you need more than 3 full days to do the place justice. 

Someone doing 10 cities in 14 days in fact spends more than half their time in BETWEEN places rather than IN places. I don't call that best use of time and it certainly will not result in seeing/doing as much as possible. Best use of time is to spend the entire time in one place but if someone just can't see doing that then I suggest they look for a balance by first deciding what percentage of their time they are willing to LOSE to moving around.

Most people start with a list of places and then try to fit them into a given amount of time. I always suggest that is the wrong way around. It is far better to start with deciding how many places you can fit into the time available and then picking that number of places from your list based on some kind of prioritizing. So for 14 days as an example, I would start with day1 arrival day is a lost day as is the departure day 14. That leaves 12 days to work with and using the Rule of 3s, that tells me I can only pick a MAXIMUM of 3 places to visit. In fact, nowadays we generally don't stay anywhere less than 5 full days.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We do not pay much attention to where others travel or how they do it. Each to their own. Some people think that we are nuts travelling for a few months with carry on only-sometimes on a one way ticket with no definitive date or arrangements made to come home prior to our departure other than a general idea.

The only 'right' way is the way you prefer to do it. Everyone does their own thing the way that suits their personality, budget, timeframe, and interests. Some people only want to cruise. Good for them. Others like escorted tours. Some are apprehensive to travel to countries where english is not the first language. Whatever.


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