# Front Loading Washing Machine and our Water Bill



## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

5 days ago we phoned in a meter reading for our water bill. Yesterday the phone rang and it was the regional water department. They say that our consumption has slowed to the point that it was flagged by their system. She suggested that we must've keyed in the meter reading incorrectly. 

My husband went downstairs, took a new meter reading and called her back. She said our meter must not be working. She and my husband did a diagnostic on the meter and it seems to be working fine. She asked him if we have been away for a couple of months and not been using the water. We haven't.

Then she asked him if we had made changes to our water usage. He told her that we got a new washer/dryer in January. She said that was the discrepency. She said the washer will pay for itself within a year. Our old washer and dryer were only 8 years old - how inefficient could they have been? We haven't received our new water bill yet, but she says we will be pleasantly surprised.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

According to this website, front load washers reduce water consumption by 40%. 

That can really add up with a small or large family.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

Us too. Also since the clothes come out almost dry, they dryer has to work less - a real energy consumer. If you hang clothes (granted some loads are better than others for that) you save tons of electricity.

We have two babies so the value was quick.

I think we save on laundry detergent too.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

DavidJD said:


> I think we save on laundry detergent too.


We are definitely saving on laundry detergent. The installation guy told me to use half of whatever amount of detergent was recommended on the container. I ran this by a few of my friends and they concurred. I use way less detergent than before and our laundry comes out just as clean. 

The installation guy also told me that frontloaders are most efficient when they are packed full. He said this is because there is no agitator in the machine, the clothes agitate off eachother. Again, I ran this by my already-frontload-convert friends and they concur. I am able to put the bedding for all our beds in one load - unheard of with our old machines - and use less soap. So I guess I can see how the savings would add up.

It's just frustrating that 8 years ago when we bought our previous machines we bought the most energy efficient ones we could find, and now they are sooo much more efficient. Is an 8-10 year life cycle for appliances going to be the new norm? Because that's kind of expensive. I remember when I was growing up people bragged about keeping their appliances for 25 years. Are those days gone?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Well, there are diminishing returns to increased efficiency, so I doubt that your machine will be obsolete in 8 or 10 years.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Just make sure you use the HE detergent. We found out the hard way that our front load died after only a few years. The repairman said the most commen reason for front loads dying is not using the right detergent, and using too much. We were told that it could more than double life using HE, and only need about a tablespoon/load, 2 if it's really dirty.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

And don't go with the fancy smanchy electronic machines.... get a reliable, mechanical machine. They will last you years, 20 or more. You do NOT want the fancy HE machines that sears sells, my god it's ridiculous to replace one circuit breaker in the things. Ask the repair man, not the sales man, when you're looking at buying a new machine. 

We bought the HE (front load) set from Sears, paid a frigging fortune for them (nearly 5K at the time) and they crapped out three times in the first year... they were still under warranty and we were SO angry at the crap quality we really pushed to have them returned, which thankfully Sears allowed us to do.

When we asked the repair guy what we should buy, he recommended the Frigidaire front load washer. We bought two sets used, and have been absolutely pleased with both sets - one is in our rental condo in Vancouver, and has been used by tenants for over 10 years with zero repairs required so far, and our second set, in our own house, had the water pump go, which was around $100 to buy and it was easy for my husband to install himself.

We will never ever buy a fancy "top of the line" appliance with a bunch of electronic crap in it ever again!


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> Just make sure you use the HE detergent. We found out the hard way that our front load died after only a few years. The repairman said the most commen reason for front loads dying is not using the right detergent, and using too much. We were told that it could more than double life using HE, and only need about a tablespoon/load, 2 if it's really dirty.


"HE"? What is that?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

'HE' is high efficiency (I think all front loads are HE). The detergent is a little different in terms of it compostion. It doesn't sud as much, and doesn't leave whatever the residue is that killed my last machine. 

There's a little 'HE' swirl on the detergent box itself.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Yep, I use 1 tablespoon of high-efficiency detergent, and it does a great job; it takes me a long, long time to go through a big bottle of detergent.

We've had our front-loader since 2002 and it's been totally reliable -- almost 10 years old at this point and we've never had any problems with it.


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## DavidJD (Sep 27, 2009)

Okay, Okay I'll say it.

Less detergent means cleaner/smaller volumes of gray water, which is ALSO better for the environment.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I use HE evironmontally friendly biodegradable deterget, and very little of it


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

When I was a Girl Guide, we did a whole segment on cleaning clothes - and the leader told us that 90% of the results come from agitation, not detergent (i.e., water is a powerful solvent all on its own!). 

I use a tiny bit of detergent - maybe a tablespoon - in my HE washer and if I happen to need to wash clothes and there's no detergent available, I just wash 'em without it. 

As a bonus, line-drying clothing inside in winter provides free humidification.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> 90% of the results come from agitation


In fact as a general rule in life, agitation is highly effective at producing results.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

brad said:


> In fact as a general rule in life, agitation is highly effective at producing results.


*lol* I think that's why I get what I want so often


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

WHAT DO WE WANT? Clean clothes (with less water and almost no detergent!)

WHEN DO WE WANT THEM? Now - or whenever the lowest-cost time-of-use rates kick in!!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MoneyGal said:


> WHEN DO WE WANT THEM? Now - or whenever the lowest-cost time-of-use rates kick in!!



I'm usually not too rushed for clean clothes. Hhowever, I did really really wished the the washing machine in our apartment building was alot faster (I don't care how much the cost), when my 68 y/o neighbor decided to stand in the hallway wearing nothing but a speedo, and flipflops, waiting for his clothes to clean/dry. Apparently, he didn't like paying more for the soap, and laudry, so waited until the Speedo was his ONLY thing not washed... 

Nice man, but I really didn't want to just 'hang' out with him at the time.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

hey plugging !

68-year-old male hangs in front of your front door wearing nothing but his speedo.

this has nothing to do w his laundry.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

We bought the Samsung front loading washer and dryer with the steam option.My water bills are $180 every 3 months but I think in general all water bills have increased this year.Where we notice our savings is a full load of clothes is dry in 20 minutes compared to 1 hour in our old washer.Also we same quite a bit on dry cleaning with the steam option.We paid $2900 for the set but we have noticed our clothes are looking brand new and my hydro bill is very low compared to old house which was half the size.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dana said:


> Is an 8-10 year life cycle for appliances going to be the new norm?


Based on how cheaply made my new Fridgedair energy efficient fridge is..
(the door seal is so weak that sometimes the doors don't quite seal)..I would say yes..
the new norm is 8-10 years on the new appliances..well... maybe the stove and dryer will last a bit longer..
but things are not made as well as they used to..because a lot of the parts are not sourced from China. use of a LOT of plastic
vs metal..and made a lot cheaper for the NA companies profit margin. 



> Because that's kind of expensive. I remember when I was growing up people bragged about keeping their appliances for 25 years. Are those days gone?


Those days are gone forever, Dana. If they made appliances to last 25 years these days, most of the appliance companies would be out of business. 
Appliance companies, and the retail industry's survival depend on consumers going out and getting new appliances (just like cars), because the new ones are either more energy or water efficient (in the case of the front load washers),
and in most cases have better features than the appliances that were made 10 years back. Ditigal everything and you can
even program the front loaders to play a tune for you when they are done with the wash/dry cycle..how cool is that?

Take for instance the Corning top stoves. While it was a nice idea from the spill proof angle and estetics, 
BUT...it took a lot of electricity to heat the pot on the ceramic top. That was fine a few years ago when electricity rates
were "cheap" but not now..and the electricity rates will never go down again. 

The new induction stoves ( tops) with convection ovens is the way to go for energy efficiency these days...BUT
you need the special cookware to work with the induction coils. So now, you toss out those old stainless pots
and go for the super-duper $500 set of induction pots....see what I mean..even the cookware companies are
benefitting from this technological changeover that is happening. As the demand increases and the price
comes down on the new ranges (remember how expensive the front loaders were 5 years back?), more and
more people will be buying these in their first homes..and if they are sick of the old greasy stoves they have
that have lasted 15 yrs or more..and just basic timers, the new ones will have a console keypad and you can
program the new appliance to cook that roast to perfection and it will play you a tune too!

Induction heating has been around a long time in the steel industry as the most efficient way of heating up scrap steel..now if you can afford the $3000 (current price) induction range..it will boil the pot of water in 60-70% less time than the conventional element stove..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooker

The only drawback, I see is that because of the electronic complexity, you really need an extended warranty on these kinds of stoves..the tradeoff being...

*either *you buy the conventional electric stove (CHEAP to buy and cheap to
repair) and accept the higher electricity operating costs...
*OR*

You go out and buy the latest high tech appliance, get the extended warranty and TRY to save that way on energy costs..however, the cost of the new appliance (price + taxes) usually outweighs MOST of the energy savings..

so in the end..it may be a moot point. ,,but it sure is nice to have that new appliance.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> that 90% of the results come from agitation, not detergent (i.e., water is a powerful solvent all on its own!).


True, but the detergent contains stain removers and other chemicals to allow the dirt to be released from the fibers. If you have hard water, your clothes will come out "stiff"and they may not be "entirely" clean..of course you can always go down to the river and wash by hand and beat the clothes against a rock to "soften the fibers"..

WikiQUOTE
"One of the largest applications of detergents is for cleaning clothing. The formulations are complex, reflecting the diverse demands of the application and the highly competitive consumer market. In general, laundry detergents contain water softeners, surfactants, bleach, enzymes, brighteners, fragrances, and many other agents. The formulation is strongly affected by the temperature of the cleaning water, and of course varies from country to country."




> I use a tiny bit of detergent - maybe a tablespoon - in my HE washer and if I happen to need to wash clothes and there's no detergent available, I just wash 'em without it.


Good for you MG...now that is the pure definition of frugal..I like it! 
You could always save those soap bar ends and throw those in...you do that?..don't you? ;-)



> [As a bonus, line-drying clothing inside in winter provides free humidification.


Absolutely! I do that too. I just put a mesh around the ends of the dryer hose to keep most of the fluff from getting spread around the basement...and I have a 20yr+ dryer that will more than likely, outlast me.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> hey plugging !
> 
> 68-year-old male hangs in front of your front door wearing nothing but his speedo.
> 
> this has nothing to do w his laundry.


 Okay... now I just feel icky inside... The imagine is still stuck in my head...


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

We bought a gas stove in new house and my dishwasher I bought from tasco some swedish company who gives 10 year warranties on it's appliances ,dishwasher was $1000 including the warranty.AND ICK to washing clothes without any detergent ,may as well brush your teeth without the tooth paste!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Addy said:


> And don't go with the fancy smanchy electronic machines.... get a reliable, mechanical machine. They will last you years, 20 or more. You do NOT want the fancy HE machines that sears sells, my god it's ridiculous to replace one circuit breaker in the things. Ask the repair man, not the sales man, when you're looking at buying a new machine.
> 
> We will never ever buy a fancy "top of the line" appliance with a bunch of electronic crap in it ever again!


I will second that! I avoid the electronic ones like the plague after what my son went through when he bought appliances from Sears for his first house. 

They gave him a great deal, but the double door 22 cuft Sears (GE) fridge worked for about 1 year.. and just past the 1 year warranty period, then it broke down..wouldn't keep things cold! Unfortunately, being frugal (like his old man) he opted not to go for the extended warranty on the appliance purchase at the time of purchase..and as luck may have it..got caught.

Apparently there was a "bang" and a part came loose inside the fridge..basically an explosion of some proportions. 

The repairman came to his house several times..to replace the microprocessor module that controls everything on the fridge..even the ice cube/chill water dispensor..no luck same problem..and never mind the inconvenience of food spoilage and not being able to keep milk/drinks cold!

Sears Repairman came a second time and replaced this and that...fridge still didn't work properly..another week or two went by!

Sears came for the third time and replaced some other do-dad (thermostat) and still the fridge wasn't keeping things cold..by now pretty much all the working parts (except the compressor and freon tubing) had been replaced!
By now Sears, had brought in a "loaner fridge" because they just couldn't figure out what the real problem was, and
were stalling as what to do with this "hi tech" GE fridge. Plugging in parts, the way they were used to doing, didn't seem to
do the trick!

Well, he realized he was on thin ice when it came to some kind of satisfaction in this matter ,and by now the breakdown with Sears not able to fix it properly, had dragged on to OVER A MONTH!

He was Pissed! He approached some management at Sears, who sympathized with his sad story, and offered to exchange the broken down fridge with another model for $300 extra..basically what the extended warranty would have cost in 
the first place. 

This second fridge does NOT have the microprocessor board ...fancy smanchy, and although its adouble door-same size,,it has more conventional controls.

So far..no problemo after more than 5 years too. But this time he went for the extended warranty on the replacement fridge!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

plugging pls don't feel concerned. There are odd ducks everywhere. It has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

thank goodness parents these days watch over their children so carefully. It's the children i'd think about. Not sure if you're living in a condo, but if so, & if the odd duck is on your floor, the children shouldn't play in the hallways & corridors without supervision ...

if i were in your place i'd probably discuss the odd duck w my husband, but i wouldn't say anything to other condo owners. Everyone in the condo association has to get along & one borderline odd duck incident is too small to be mentioned imho ... unless ... it keeps on happening ...


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

I take my laundry down to the laundry room on the first floor. After I choose a machine that has the least amount of stains and pubes all over it, I insert $1.75, go back up to my apartment, and return in about 35 mins to transfer my clothes to whichever dryer has the least amount of dog/cat hair in the lint vent.


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## olivaw (Nov 21, 2010)

Addy said:


> We will never ever buy a fancy "top of the line" appliance with a bunch of electronic crap in it ever again!


I agree. 

My wife and I want a new front load washer but our old Maytag washer and drier have been problem free for over ten years. Our newer designer kitchen appliances have been very unreliable. The problems seem to stem from the electronics. 

When we decide to move up to the front load washer, we'll be looking for a simple mid range mechanical system.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> plugging pls don't feel concerned. There are odd ducks everywhere. It has nothing whatsoever to do with you.
> 
> thank goodness parents these days watch over their children so carefully. It's the children i'd think about. Not sure if you're living in a condo, but if so, & if the odd duck is on your floor, the children shouldn't play in the hallways & corridors without supervision ...
> 
> if i were in your place i'd probably discuss the odd duck w my husband, but i wouldn't say anything to other condo owners. Everyone in the condo association has to get along & one borderline odd duck incident is too small to be mentioned imho ... unless ... it keeps on happening ...


We actually rent that condo now. The guy is still there, and we've been told by our tenants that he still waits until he has nothing else to wear. They think it's because he doesn't have too many clothes, and tries to get the most out of his load. 

We weren't too concerned about him, he was actually a pretty nice guy, just didn't like talking to him while he was in a speedo.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

_" ... just didn't like talking to him while he was in a speedo." _

think how speechless you would have been if he wasn't.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

marina628 said:


> We bought a gas stove in new house and my dishwasher I bought from tasco some swedish company who gives 10 year warranties on it's appliances ,dishwasher was $1000 including the warranty.AND ICK to washing clothes without any detergent ,may as well brush your teeth without the tooth paste!


No ICK factor. In reality brushing your teeth without toothpaste is a good idea, ask a dentist. Most commercial toothpastes contain sweeteners! And it's the brushing action (similar to agitation and clothes) that cleans the teeth and massages the gums. Modern society hath gone too far with over using fragrance, food (even toothpaste) additives and other crap.

When I lived in Vancouver my dental hygienist suggested brushing on the commute to work, no toothpaste, just to stimulate the gums and help prevent gum disease.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Addy said:


> No ICK factor. In reality brushing your teeth without toothpaste is a good idea, ask a dentist. Most commercial toothpastes contain sweeteners! And it's the brushing action (similar to agitation and clothes) that cleans the teeth and massages the gums.


Well this discussion is deviating from the original topic..but even though some toothpastes have pumice stone (some form of calcium slurry), and will scratch tooth enamel over time, most of the gel ones don't have any.
As far as sweetners, if you drink coffee with sugar or soft drinks, you probably have more sugar in your mouth per day, than what there is in toothpastes..but you must know by now..I like to argue just about anything. 
True that the waterpiks are great at removing debris from between the teeth and the gumline, but Istill like that
fresh minty taste that most toothpastes have in the morning to hide jungle mouth..ROAR!!!!



> When I lived in Vancouver my dental hygienist suggested *brushing on the commute to work, no toothpaste, just to stimulate the gums *and help prevent gum disease.


 Oh!.... so your are one of those... that brushes teeth and hair, applies makeup in the rearview mirror, files yer nails,,.,yaks on the cellphone and what about texting? 

Amazing how many things you can do stuck at a red light..(besides picking ones nose)..LOL!


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

carverman said:


> Oh!.... so your are one of those... that brushes teeth and hair, applies makeup in the rearview mirror, files yer nails,,.,yaks on the cellphone and what about texting?


I brush my hair maybe once or twice a year. I don't wear makeup except maybe once every two years, I don't file my nails - I bite them. I have a pay as you go cell phone, which I use perhaps once a month for a phone call and two or three texts a month. Oh and yeah, I don't drive to work, I walk.



carverman said:


> Amazing how many things you can do stuck at a red light..(besides picking ones nose)..LOL!


I usually wait for the green light so I can cross the street. Sometimes I blow my nose on a kleenex if it's -40 out and it's dripping like a son-of-a-gun, but thats about the extent of excitement I get whilst waiting for the light to turn green, or in my case, the white man to show up and tell me I can cross.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Addy said:


> I brush my hair maybe once or twice a year. I don't wear makeup except maybe once every two years, I don't file my nails - I bite them. I have a pay as you go cell phone, which I use perhaps once a month for a phone call and two or three texts a month. Oh and yeah, I don't drive to work, I walk.


Ok, so hair is not a high maintenance item on your list.
10 -> Kudo points

Bite nails: jury is out on this one..doesn't look as nice long nails with
red polish, but....

Pay as you go cell phone & once a month call : 10-> Kudo points

Walk to work in -40C Winnepeg winter......are you nuts?
I have trouble with -20C Ottawa winters! 






> I usually wait for the green light so I can cross the street. Sometimes I blow my nose on a kleenex if it's -40 out and it's dripping like a son-of-a-gun, but thats about the extent of excitement I get whilst waiting for the light to turn green, or in my case, the white man to show up and tell me I can cross.


waiting for green light. 1 atta girl -> ADDY

Wiping icicles off [email protected] ....solution: move somewhere warmer..why are you punishing yourself?  

white man??? Oh the walk sign?....you actually watch for those in -40C?

BRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!! I'm going to turn up the room thermostat to 21C!!!!


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I found this old thread after our washer "retired" yesterday. Although the bells and whistles have improved since 2011, ten years later much of the discussion related to the topic applies. The portion that was OT made me smile (wonder if the now 78 year old is still waiting in his speedo : D). "They don't make em like they used to has been the mantra I heard my entire life." We are replacing our ancient (25yr+) washer with a new LG front loader LG 4.5 cu. ft. Ultra Large Capacity TurboWash® Washer (WM4370HKA) | LG USA . I doubt it will still work in 25 yrs. Many years ago (17-18?) I used to assist a friend who owned an appliance repair shop and back then there was a big difference between high end and and brands. 

We will replace the dryer when we find one on sale over the next while. We did opt for a fairly high end model and I am curious if most of the cost is for features or if quality will come with it as well. Although the energy efficiency is good for the environment I doubt I will recoup the cost in savings before we need to replace the unit. Hoping for 10yrs. Is that a realistic expectation? Our house currently has to take items to the drycleaners so I am lookin forward to the steam option.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Dana said:


> 5 days ago we phoned in a meter reading for our water bill. Yesterday the phone rang and it was the regional water department. They say that our consumption has slowed to the point that it was flagged by their system. She suggested that we must've keyed in the meter reading incorrectly.
> 
> My husband went downstairs, took a new meter reading and called her back. She said our meter must not be working. She and my husband did a diagnostic on the meter and it seems to be working fine. She asked him if we have been away for a couple of months and not been using the water. We haven't.
> 
> Then she asked him if we had made changes to our water usage. He told her that we got a new washer/dryer in January. She said that was the discrepency. She said the washer will pay for itself within a year. Our old washer and dryer were only 8 years old - how inefficient could they have been? We haven't received our new water bill yet, but she says we will be pleasantly surprised.


Where do you live? I live in Mississauga and my annual water+sewer bill is ~$100. Would take a long time to pay off a front-load washer.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I have an LG front load washer, it's 11 years old.
For the first 4 years we ran it on average about 10x a week, now about once a day.

I've had to replace the drain pump (too much sand killed it)
I've had to replace the inlet solenoids.

But it's done several thousands loads of laundry, and it's great.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> I have an LG front load washer, it's 11 years old.
> For the first 4 years we ran it on average about 10x a week, now about once a day.
> 
> I've had to replace the drain pump (too much sand killed it)
> ...


Why so much laundry?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

A lot of very dirty kids, I guess!


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Money172375 said:


> Why so much laundry?


Cloth diapers, so we'd do a load every 2-3 days for that. They came out smelling fresh.

Then lights/darks/kids/sheets/towels/cloths = 7+/wk


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## SamR (Oct 9, 2021)

Dana said:


> We are definitely saving on laundry detergent. The installation guy told me to use half of whatever amount of detergent was recommended on the container. I ran this by a few of my friends and they concurred. I use way less detergent than before and our laundry comes out just as clean.
> 
> The installation guy also told me that frontloaders are most efficient when they are packed full. He said this is because there is no agitator in the machine, the clothes agitate off eachother. Again, I ran this by my already-frontload-convert friends and they concur. I am able to put the bedding for all our beds in one load - unheard of with our old machines - and use less soap. So I guess I can see how the savings would add up.
> 
> It's just frustrating that 8 years ago when we bought our previous machines we bought the most energy efficient ones we could find, and now they are sooo much more efficient. Is an 8-10 year life cycle for appliances going to be the new norm? Because that's kind of expensive. I remember when I was growing up people bragged about keeping their appliances for 25 years. Are those days gone?


yes, long gone... 10 years? 7 is more the norm


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

SamR said:


> yes, long gone... 10 years? 7 is more the norm


My parents have >30 yr old washer and dryer. I'm doubtful mine will last that long, though I'm over a decade now.


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