# Electric Vehicles



## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

I figure we should have a separate thread discussing EVs as opposed to cluttering up the Tesla thread.

Interesting development that Ottawa is going to support the Ford Oakville's plant to produce EVs. Given that the Edge will stop production in 3 years time, they will have the capacity and time to retool. Ottawa says governments offering $500M to bring electric vehicle production to Ford’s Oakville plant

Couche-Tard is going to start installing EV charging stations in Canada and in the US (Circle-K). That will provide a few more options to recharge for long distance trips. Couche-Tard to add electric car charging stations to Circle K locations in Canada, U.S.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I don't see why "retooling" is such a huge deal.
They make the Escape, and Plug in Escape in Louisville on the same line. It's not a big deal to throw in electric motors in a car instead of an engine and transmission.

Half a billion dollars of tax money is a big handout, even as a Ford shareholder I'm opposed to these handouts.

The thing is, if electric cars make sense, they will get built. Ford has a lot of hybrids, and they're priced competitively with the gas vehicles.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Well, there are a number of reasons why there are costs to retool:
1. The Ford Edge probably has a different chassis/platform than whatever EV is going to be produced in the future, which means you may have to have new equipment and move things around;
2. Current factory doesn't manufacture battery packs so that's new;
3. Building sequence may be different which is related to point 1; and
4. Employee training as now we're talking about battery installation, electric motors at the wheels instead of an engine block, and software installs.

Edit: An old article from 2009, but relevant considering it discusses Ford's cost to convert from SUV to EV in Michigan. Ford invests $550 million to retool Michigan plant for Focus, all-electric car


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> Well, there are a number of reasons why there are costs to retool:
> 1. The Ford Edge probably has a different chassis/platform than whatever EV is going to be produced in the future, which means you may have to have new equipment and move things around;
> 2. Current factory doesn't manufacture battery packs so that's new;
> 3. Building sequence may be different which is related to point 1; and
> ...


Assembly plants don't build parts. Battery packs don't get built at assembly plants.
Employee training is a minimal issue in an auto plant.
They're constantly trained for each new job.

I don't think the government should spend half a billion dollars subsidizing Ford.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

There are two points here: 
1-does it cost money to retool a plant for a new vehicle? 
2-should governments subsidize this activity?

1 is obviously yes. Whether OEMs get handouts or not, they incur these costs. 2 is open to debate.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Assembly plants don't build parts. Battery packs don't get built at assembly plants.
> Employee training is a minimal issue in an auto plant.
> They're constantly trained for each new job.
> 
> I don't think the government should spend half a billion dollars subsidizing Ford.


Sigh, from the article. 
Ford Motor Co. and its main union are in the midst of labour negotiations ahead of a deadline midnight Monday night, and a push for a retooling of the plant for *mass production of EVs and their high-tech batteries *is central to the talks.

Maybe read before commenting?


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> 2-should governments subsidize this activity?


Any different from subsidizing EV purchases? 

Personally, I don't care for government subsidizing companies, but this is probably part of the government's infrastructure/greening plans.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> There are two points here:
> 1-does it cost money to retool a plant for a new vehicle?
> 2-should governments subsidize this activity?
> 
> 1 is obviously yes. Whether OEMs get handouts or not, they incur these costs. 2 is open to debate.


I agree, but #2 is the problem.
There is no justification for the government to seize my money and simply give it to a foreign multi billion dollar company.

In 2018 Corporate income tax was 48Billion.
Instead of giving Ford $500 million, they could have simply given every single corporation a 1% tax cut. (not to their tax rate, just lower the corporate taxes by 1%)
Then the other hundreds of millions they give to company B, C, D etc, they could simply, fairly, equally and openly slash corporate welfate, and make Canada more tax competative, without even losing money.

\


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> Sigh, from the article.
> Ford Motor Co. and its main union are in the midst of labour negotiations ahead of a deadline midnight Monday night, and a push for a retooling of the plant for *mass production of EVs and their high-tech batteries *is central to the talks.
> 
> Maybe read before commenting?


Sorry some Ottawa reporter is likely less informed on Fords manufacturing plans than the CEO.

The CEO said during earnings calls that there is no advantage to bringing battery production in house.
"The supply chain has ramped up since Elon [Musk] built his Gigafactory, and so there’s plenty there that does not warrant us to migrate our capital into owning our own factory,” he said. “There’s no advantage in the ownership in terms of cost or sourcing.”


Plus LGChem is one of leading battery manufacturers, it's cheaper to pay them for allocated capacity than to try and develop a competing product. There is a reason Ford & GM have been collaborating on some items such as transmissions, R&D is really darn expensive.


So I doubt the news article. Such a dramatic change in direction doesn't make sense and I think it was likely an error on the writers part.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A key component in the Unifor ongoing negotiations is assigning future work to Canadian assembly plants, and EV vehicles are big part of the discussions.

If Canada wants to retain the big assembly plants and Tier II supplier plants and subsequent tax revenues, they will have to compete with US subsidies.

Wages, benefits, pensions, seniority rights, are all taking a back seat to the number one issue........retaining work for Canadian plants.

I was hopeful but not expecting a reinstatement of COLA to our auto pensions, but the union appears to have EV production as the main priority.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The re-tooling of a big auto assembly plant is an enormous undertaking that involves hundreds of electricians, robotic technicians, engineers and designers.

Unless someone has experience working in a large automotive assembly plant they have no idea what would be involved. 

In many ways it would be easier to build a new plant dedicated to building EV vehicles.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The re-tooling of a big auto assembly plant is an enormous undertaking that involves hundreds of electricians, robotic technicians, engineers and designers.
> 
> Unless someone has experience working in a large automotive assembly plant they have no idea what would be involved.
> 
> In many ways it would be easier to build a new plant dedicated to building EV vehicles.


Only if it's a really outdated plant like the former Crown Vic plant in St Thomas.

More modern plants are designed to facilitate adjustments.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Sorry some Ottawa reporter is likely less informed on Fords manufacturing plans than the CEO.
> 
> The CEO said during earnings calls that there is no advantage to bringing battery production in house.
> "The supply chain has ramped up since Elon [Musk] built his Gigafactory, and so there’s plenty there that does not warrant us to migrate our capital into owning our own factory,” he said. “There’s no advantage in the ownership in terms of cost or sourcing.”
> ...


So that was the outgoing CEO. 

What can change in the meantime is the government's desire to be a player in the EV battery playing field: Mining gives Canada a competitive advantage in electric vehicle market

If Ford is provided enough incentive, it's a possibility, but these are all ongoing negotiations.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> So that was the outgoing CEO.
> 
> What can change in the meantime is the government's desire to be a player in the EV battery playing field: Mining gives Canada a competitive advantage in electric vehicle market
> 
> If Ford is provided enough incentive, it's a possibility, but these are all ongoing negotiations.


Sure, LG & GM have a partnership, it's quite likely LG & Ford will make a partnership.

I really don't see it being a worthwhile use of tax money to bribe Ford to get into a non-core business.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Sure, LG & GM have a partnership, it's quite likely LG & Ford will make a partnership.
> 
> I really don't see it being a worthwhile use of tax money to bribe Ford to get into a non-core business.


Ford has a partnership with VW for engineering battery packs: Ford, Volkswagen Finalize Partnership to Build EV, Delivery Vans, and Pickup Truck
Right now they are looking at SK Innovations for the battery cells.

Keep in mind when we say produce batteries for EVs, that can mean assembling the power packs and not necessarily the cells themselves.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> Ford has a partnership with VW for engineering battery packs: Ford, Volkswagen Finalize Partnership to Build EV, Delivery Vans, and Pickup Truck
> Right now they are looking at SK Innovations for the battery cells.
> 
> Keep in mind when we say produce batteries for EVs, that can mean assembling the power packs and not necessarily the cells themselves.


Yes, and they're currently using LG but might also work with SK
The Ford Mustang Mach-E will be powered by LG Chem battery cells.

Keep in mind when we say "batteries" that means "battery cells", not assemblies which hold battery cells.
When I say "we" I mean Automotive Engineers.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Enough of the unelected United Nations & their Great Reset. Part of their power agenda is to kill the world economy & start up with zero CO2.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A mega deal by Unifor and Ford to bring EV production to Canada. 

On to Chrysler and GM now.....


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## BillSmith (Sep 23, 2020)

:) lonewolf said:


> Enough of the unelected United Nations & their Great Reset. Part of their power agenda is to kill the world economy & start up with zero CO2.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/ford-to-add-more-than-1-000-jobs-atv-ontario-plant-1412174098 The labor market is expanding with EV production though.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

BillSmith said:


> https://www.wsj.com/articles/ford-to-add-more-than-1-000-jobs-atv-ontario-plant-1412174098 The labor market is expanding with EV production though.


Electric vehicles have fewer parts and require fewer vehicles.

Moving electric is bad for jobs, good for pretty much everything else, but when you reduce the number of people to do the work by 30%, I don't see how it's a net win.

That being said, reducing workers by 30% should drop the cost significantly as well. I'd love more cheap electric vehicles.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Let the market decide best source of energy for vehicles not money handed out by government


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Tesla unveiled their plans for battery technology and cost reduction/scaling yesterday.









Tesla unveils new 4680 battery cell: bigger, 6x power, and 5x energy


Tesla has unveiled its new battery cell, now known as the 4680, at its Battery Day event. The new cell...




electrek.co





Basically a larger cell, enabled by integrating some technology they have acquired and refined over the past couple of years (including Canadian battery automation company Hybar). They also plan to eliminate the pack, using their giant casting presses to create a rigid shell to hold the batteries and then use the batteries as part of the structure.

They claim to have innovations that will reduce the cost per kwh by over 50%, and reduce investment required for manufacturing by 70%. Also, eliminating problematic raw materials like cobalt.

Also announced their plans for a $25k USD electric car, and unveiled their new high performance spec Model S with 520+ mi range (I know, I know, still not enough), 200 mph top speed, <2s 0-60, I guess topping the Lucid Air.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Tesla unveiled their plans for battery technology and cost reduction/scaling yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice innovation, fewer pieces is good, and if they can keep the larger batteries from exploding, that's a nice plus.

My big question is why is it noteworthy that a battery 8x larger in volume has 5x the storage capacity?
Bulkier battery for the same distance, doesn't seem to be so great from the end user standpoint.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

200 mph in a quiet vehicle..(what a rush)......makes me think personal EV Star Wars type hovercrafts will be a reality in a generation or two.

Think of the possibilities for mass transit. Monorails, high speed rail, ......the conversion to alternative energy will be exciting times.

Our city is suffering from traffic congestion that was never addressed. Now the city is built up to much to build a "circle road".

An elevated monorail transit system to replace the buses caught in traffic is possible now. They can run on EV power.

I get jealous thinking of what future generations will see in their lifetimes. Progressive governments will guide the future.


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## calm (May 26, 2020)

How are we going to handle dumping a Zillion batteries?
As it is, I am being told that a single flashlight battery is a huge environmental concern.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

calm said:


> How are we going to handle dumping a Zillion batteries?
> As it is, I am being told that a single flashlight battery is a huge environmental concern.


They're rechargable.
Also as demand ramps up, and supply of used batteries ramp up, it makes more sense to invest in recycling/reconditioning.


There are already battery recycling plants in Ontario, we'll just have more and they're bigger.

The thing is lithium is as they get better, the recycled materials will become more common.
Brass and aluminum have very high recycling rates, because they're much cheaper to recycle than to mine.

(Yes I know you don't "mine" brass, you mine copper and zinc, then mix them)


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Nice innovation, fewer pieces is good, and if they can keep the larger batteries from exploding, that's a nice plus.
> 
> My big question is why is it noteworthy that a battery 8x larger in volume has 5x the storage capacity?
> Bulkier battery for the same distance, doesn't seem to be so great from the end user standpoint.


I think your math is wrong. 2170 to 4680 is not 8x volume. It is 5.something x.

Much higher power, and because it is tabless, will have good thermal performance. Because the cell will be structural and have no pack structure, it reduces the effective size/weight of the battery assembly.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> They're rechargable.
> Also as demand ramps up, and supply of used batteries ramp up, it makes more sense to invest in recycling/reconditioning.
> 
> 
> ...


Tesla plans to recycle their own batteries in-house. Of course, there is a huge lag (10-15 years) from making a battery to recycling them, so the vast majority of the feedstock will have to be primary materials.

I guess Tesla has also innovated an improved lithium extraction technique (saline extraction) and secured 50k acres of lithium clay in Nevada to extract from. RIP all the lithium miner speculation.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Tesla plans to recycle their own batteries in-house. Of course, there is a huge lag (10-15 years) from making a battery to recycling them, so the vast majority of the feedstock will have to be primary materials.
> 
> I guess Tesla has also innovated an improved lithium extraction technique (saline extraction) and secured 50k acres of lithium clay in Nevada to extract from. RIP all the lithium miner speculation.


I actually think that's a bit of an issue.
Elon is very smart, and incredibly arrogant, and more successful than not.

But.. is the highest use of his talents going to be battery recycling?

Secondly when people argue about the wealthy, don't they think someone like Elon should have billions of dollars for 2 reasons.
1. he's arguably made the world way better and should be, from a moral standpoint, richly rewarded.
2. Those billions have allowed him to fund and push past those who would have stood in his way to achive what he has.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm not sure Elon is personally overseeing battery recycling. Running all of Tesla is a part-time gig for him, as he's also running SpaceX, The Boring Company, Neuralink and until recently playing a leadership role in Open.ai.

Show me a exceptionally highly accomplished individual who isn't at least a little bit arrogant. Wallflowers don't tend to rise to the pinnacle of human achievement. Lots of people are smart--I don't think that's what sets Musk apart. He is completely unwilling to accept the status quo, and goes back to first principles when problem solving. He is totally unafraid of going against conventional thinking, particularly from the business types.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> I'm not sure Elon is personally overseeing battery recycling. Running all of Tesla is a part-time gig for him, as he's also running SpaceX, The Boring Company, Neuralink and until recently playing a leadership role in Open.ai.
> 
> Show me a exceptionally highly accomplished individual who isn't at least a little bit arrogant. Wallflowers don't tend to rise to the pinnacle of human achievement. Lots of people are smart--I don't think that's what sets Musk apart. He is completely unwilling to accept the status quo, and goes back to first principles when problem solving. He is totally unafraid of going against conventional thinking, particularly from the business types.


Capitalism and his massive wealth allow his arrogance and exceptionalism to flourish.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

He doesn't seem overly motivated by wealth for its own sake. He took his Paypal stake and invested into two absurdly unlikely to succeed ventures: a rocket company and a new mass-market automaker (and an EV one at that). He could have coasted on his Paypal investment that would be worth billions today but instead he risked it all on things he thought would make the world a better place and very nearly went broke. He's also resisting bringing SpaceX public because he doesn't want it to deviate from the long term goal of putting people on Mars. Along the way he may disrupt telecom, in addition to the ossified space launch industry. SpaceX now absolutely dwarfs ULA in tonnage delivered to orbit (order of magnitude more), and he's just getting started.

He's definitely not perfect. He has a habit of being too optimistic and overpromising. His predictions of full self driving are testament to that, and it mirrors general industry over-exuberance with the machine learning breakthrough we're enjoying. He's definitely confident and perhaps arrogant at times. Some of his ideas are not very good, but the bad ones he tends not to commit a lot to. Hyperloop is a dud. His Boring Company is unclear. Improving tunneling technology may be quite useful for all manner of infrastructure applications besides transportation, but it will be very interesting to see if the transportation application works out. Neuralink is too early to say, but it seems quite promising. I'm not aware of any other company trying to do anything like it. He also does a very good job of attracting bright and talented people to work for him. SpaceX and Tesla are two of the most desirable employers for new STEM grads to work for.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Capitalism and his massive wealth allow his arrogance and exceptionalism to flourish.


Are you anti-capitalist, now?

I am much more disturbed by the quiet billionaires that use their wealth to buy overwhelming influence in legislative matters. Democracy and capitalism are only compatible if there are limits on translating money into influence. Otherwise you devolve into plutocracy where you can choose flavour A and flavour B but both are controlled by the wealthy.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Teslas were a bit hard to start today. I wont elaborate.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

You mean the stock price was down?

It was also down after they announced their pickup ~10 months ago. I won't elaborate on performance since then.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Elon Musk to announce 'million-mile battery' for Tesla electric cars


The mega battery will power upcoming Tesla electric vehicles, including the heavy-duty Semi truck and the futuristic Cybertruck, at least one million miles (1.6 million km).




www.dailymail.co.uk


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Eder said:


> Elon Musk to announce 'million-mile battery' for Tesla electric cars
> 
> 
> The mega battery will power upcoming Tesla electric vehicles, including the heavy-duty Semi truck and the futuristic Cybertruck, at least one million miles (1.6 million km).
> ...


I think this article is speculation from prior to the announcement. Of all the things Tesla claimed yesterday, I don't think a million mile battery was one of them. It is really only relevant to two products: semi and robotaxi. It's overkill for the rest of their product lines. A million mile battery life is achievable, but maybe not something they were ready to emphasize.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Regarding Elon Musk


andrewf said:


> MrMatt said:
> 
> 
> > Capitalism and his massive wealth allow his arrogance and exceptionalism to flourish.
> ...


No, pro capitalism for that specific reason.

It's funny, I point out that capitalism has allowed a single person to push through with massive progress in a variety of areas, and you think that's a bad thing?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

One could interpret your statement as arrogance and exceptionalism being undesirable.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> One could interpret your statement as arrogance and exceptionalism being undesirable.


I think we should have as many exceptional people as we can, in as many positive ways as we can.
Are you suggesting we should knock down anyone who is a bit better at anything?
Harrison Bergeron was a warning, not a prescription.

Arrogance can be a problem, however you have to be arrogant to push past the resistance to rise to the top.


I think it was John Mellancamp who spoke about all the well meaning people who try to hold you back, out of love, for your own good. That's a recipe for OK, but you'll likely never reach the peak if you're holding back and listening to the naysayers.



As far as Musk, I think he's been a net positive to the world, but there are examples of those who were not a net positive.
I think the positives outweigh the negatives.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

MrMatt said:


> Are you suggesting we should knock down anyone who is a bit better at anything?


Isn't that the entire left agenda?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> Isn't that the entire left agenda?


not realy, there are actually 3 group

Some do overtly want that, even here they're calling to tear the whole system down. They're evil.
Some don't explicitly want that, but they do have jealousy they want sated. They're just a little selfish.
Some don't want to hurt anyone, but don't understand the consequences of what they're asking for. They simply have a different opinion.

IMO the third group is the most important, and it's why free speech is important. It's possible to discuss middle ground with them, or at least shift their plans to avoid creating poverty traps.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think Musk is a narcissist. The thing is that narcissists are ok if you agree with what they are fixated upon, same as Trudeau and Trump.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

kcowan said:


> I think Musk is a narcissist. The thing is that narcissists are ok if you agree with what they are fixated upon, same as Trudeau and Trump.


Fair, at some level you have to be.
Just for a counter point, what about Richard Branson?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Exceptionalism as in American exceptionalism can be seen as a negative (unless you are American, I guess).


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

kcowan said:


> I think Musk is a narcissist. The thing is that narcissists are ok if you agree with what they are fixated upon, same as Trudeau and Trump.


Well, Musk and Trump don't seem all that similar. Musk has articulated goals beyond himself that explain his motivation. Trump seems solely motivated by appealing to his own vanity. He's definitely not strongly motivated by, say, banning abortion through SCOTUS stacking. He likes that because it is a useful carrot for motivating evangelicals to vote for an thrice married blowhard playboy.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes and we are all thrice jealous ...he can pick the arm candy


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Hah, she's just waiting for him to kick the bucket. It's a tough job, but she's willing.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Fair, at some level you have to be.
> Just for a counter point, what about Richard Branson?


Yes he is. I think he is the least objectionable of the named narcississts: Best to worst: Branson, Musk, Trudeau, Trump.

But for sure there are a good sampling of narcississts among CEOs and politicians.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Car companies retool all the time. Electric vehicles are no different in fact may be easier and cheaper to build, except for the batteries.
So far though, I don't think anyone has sold enough electric cars to make a profit. GM had a nice little one called the Bolt, it was practically as good as Tesla's newest small model for less money and backed by a major company and dealership network. Nobody bought them and they stopped making them. Meanwhile Tesla is still making cars and still has never made a profit, if you deduct all the government subsidies. What will happen to them when the subsidies run out?

Don't think I dislike electric cars, I have known for years that the electric is the perfect car. The holdup was always getting suitable batteries and now that has been solved.

There are 2 things holding back electric cars in Canada, one is that the batteries do not work well when cold, and can be ruined if allowed to freeze. The other is that a decent heater uses up huge amounts of energy.

In the meantime, city buses should be replaced by electrics even if they have to have propane furnaces for heat. Get those stinky diesels off the streets.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

We had electric buses in Edmonton back in the 60's...my brother said he felt he could get the front wheels off the ground if he floored it.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Car companies retool all the time. Electric vehicles are no different in fact may be easier and cheaper to build, except for the batteries.
> So far though, I don't think anyone has sold enough electric cars to make a profit. GM had a nice little one called the Bolt, it was practically as good as Tesla's newest small model for less money and backed by a major company and dealership network. Nobody bought them and they stopped making them. Meanwhile Tesla is still making cars and still has never made a profit, if you deduct all the government subsidies. What will happen to them when the subsidies run out?
> 
> Don't think I dislike electric cars, I have known for years that the electric is the perfect car. The holdup was always getting suitable batteries and now that has been solved.
> ...


I was thinking this and bought some New Flyer... then COVID

Honestly I think Fords extensive Hybrid plan is a great idea to give no/low trade off vehicles.
Also they're trying to push highly desirable cars (Cmax was popular, MachE) Volkswagen and their ID.4 are coming.

Battery technology has been holding back electric vehicles for more than a century.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Eder said:


> We had electric buses in Edmonton back in the 60's...my brother said he felt he could get the front wheels off the ground if he floored it.


I grew up in a place that had electric buses (aka trolleybuses) Maybe we could get back to those in cities except somehow have wireless power. Our buses had no need for the rails that trams or streetcars need, but did require overhead power wires. Wireless power transfer is it seems possible - uses Tesla principle! (the other Tesla


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Car companies retool all the time. Electric vehicles are no different in fact may be easier and cheaper to build, except for the batteries.
> So far though, I don't think anyone has sold enough electric cars to make a profit. GM had a nice little one called the Bolt, it was practically as good as Tesla's newest small model for less money and backed by a major company and dealership network. Nobody bought them and they stopped making them. Meanwhile Tesla is still making cars and still has never made a profit, if you deduct all the government subsidies. What will happen to them when the subsidies run out?
> 
> Don't think I dislike electric cars, I have known for years that the electric is the perfect car. The holdup was always getting suitable batteries and now that has been solved.
> ...


Tesla already is ineligible for federal tax credit in the US as of Jan 2020.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

agent99 said:


> I grew up in a place that had electric buses (aka trolleybuses) Maybe we could get back to those in cities except somehow have wireless power. Our buses had no need for the rails that trams or streetcars need, but did require overhead power wires. Wireless power transfer is it seems possible - uses Tesla principle! (the other Tesla


Battery technology is good enough today.
For Buses and items on a route, you can easily swap in batterypacks, like they do for liftrucks (forklifts) at industrial sites.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

GM is still manufacturing the Bolt. They are redesigning it over 6 months and will re-enter the market in the summer of 2021 as a 2022 model.









2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV spy shots and video


Chevrolet's Bolt EV is set to spawn a crossover variant next year.




www.motorauthority.com


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

sags said:


> GM is still manufacturing the Bolt. They are redesigning it over 6 months and will re-enter the market in the summer of 2021 as a 2022 model.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At one time, I checked with a local gm dealer and they couldn't offer a bolt or a volt. Maybe they didn't build that many?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Battery technology is good enough today.
> For Buses and items on a route, you can easily swap in batterypacks, like they do for liftrucks (forklifts) at industrial sites.


Not sure battery swapping makes as much sense with on the road vehicles. Not aware of any of the major bus makers making buses with swappable batteries. Honestly, they may not even be needed on many routes, which often have dwell time at terminals that can be used for opportunity charging (big batteries mean you can dump a lot of energy into a battery in a short period of time). Given that bus fleets are sized for peak periods, there is time to charge even during the day. TTC has bought 60 EV buses from three manufacturers for testing purposes and overall they are working well.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree city transit buses would be a perfect application for batteries. NFI Group is one of those. Xcelsior CHARGE™ - New Flyer | North America’s Bus Leader


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I agree city transit buses would be a perfect application for batteries. NFI Group is one of those. Xcelsior CHARGE™ - New Flyer | North America’s Bus Leader


Actually i think Garbage trucks are the even better application. The one man crew is "hammer gas, hammer brake, idle"
Also their distance till full is short.
That's the idea electric application.

But I don't know who's doing that, plus investments in garbage handling aren't cool


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> ...There are 2 things holding back electric cars in Canada, one is that the batteries do not work well when cold, and can be ruined if allowed to freeze. The other is that a decent heater uses up huge amounts of energy.


I have never seen any studies but wouldn't AC required in the south eat up electricity just like heaters? I know cars in Mexico City need heaters as well as AC.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

kcowan said:


> I have never seen any studies but wouldn't AC required in the south eat up electricity just like heaters? I know cars in Mexico City need heaters as well as AC.


I think Rusty was referring to battery heaters that turn on when you plug in the car.

As far as A/C requiring as much power as a cabin heater, I would say not. The cabin heater is like a toaster and draws quite a bit of power compared to an electric motor required to run an A/C compressor.

Just a guess.

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Actually i think Garbage trucks are the even better application. The one man crew is "hammer gas, hammer brake, idle"
> Also their distance till full is short.
> That's the idea electric application.
> 
> But I don't know who's doing that, plus investments in garbage handling aren't cool


Certainly the start/stop (regenerative braking) efficiency would be excellent but those trucks have no time to stop and re-charge during the day (unlike transit buses). It is a long day for the trucks around here.... 7am to 5pm and sometimes longer without a stop, except obvious driver pit stops and then lunch where a partial re-charge would be possible. The contractors can't afford to not have the trucks on the road the entire day.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

EV ac & heating is easily solved with the addition of a 40lb propane tank to run them....


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Certainly the start/stop (regenerative braking) efficiency would be excellent but those trucks have no time to stop and re-charge during the day (unlike transit buses). It is a long day for the trucks around here.... 7am to 5pm and sometimes longer without a stop, except obvious driver pit stops and then lunch where a partial re-charge would be possible. The contractors can't afford to not have the trucks on the road the entire day.


But they don't actually go that far.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> But they don't actually go that far.


I suppose only a few hundred kms each day, including 5-8 or so 20km round trips to the landfill. Lots of energy used to lift all those bins and run the compactor too.You might be surprised how much energy they use. Might be interesting to get some insight from waste disposal companies themselves.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

For the people who think EVs don't work in the cold, maybe consider that Norway has a huge % of their market in EVs. Leaving aside subsidies, they clearly work well enough that people are willing to rely on them.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

like_to_retire said:


> I think Rusty was referring to battery heaters that turn on when you plug in the car.
> 
> As far as A/C requiring as much power as a cabin heater, I would say not. The cabin heater is like a toaster and draws quite a bit of power compared to an electric motor required to run an A/C compressor.
> 
> ...


Some cabin heaters are resistive. Others are heat pumps used for heating. Model Y was the first Tesla model to have a heat pump, and it is expected to have much improved cold-weather performance. It was just released at the tail end of winter so not a lot of public testing available yet. It also harvests heat from the motors and battery.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I suppose only a few hundred kms each day, including 5-8 or so 20km round trips to the landfill. Lots of energy used to lift all those bins and run the compactor too.You might be surprised how much energy they use. Might be interesting to get some insight from waste disposal companies themselves.


I'm thinking the residential pickups, not the commercial ones.

I was thinking many round trips, but apparently some trucks do a several hundred houses before dumping, so they might not get as much.

I think the business case is there or almost there. 
Once it offers a good ROI, it _should_ be like a damn breaking.


I'm curious which companies are working on this, or actually the leaders.
I did a search and it seems to be a popular idea.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

You can get a lot of the benefit with hybrid drivetrains, since the gain is mostly in regenerative braking. They will eventually be fully electrified but that is more a cost savings of electricity vs diesel/nat gas play.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I'm thinking the residential pickups, not the commercial ones.


So am I thinking residential (municipal) as in Environmental 360 in Central Okanagan Lots of energy likely dissipated in the lift and compactor. This is the style of truck I see in most jurisdictions. Some are actually bigger (longer).

Added: One such example Nikola Electric talks about an impressive 150 mile range. Forget the reference to 1200 cans.... No modern municipality uses labour intensive 'cans' any more. Waste Connections looks like they will test Canadian manufactured examples as well.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> Added: One such example Nikola Electric talks about an impressive 150 mile range. Forget the reference to 1200 cans.... No modern municipality uses labour intensive 'cans' any more. Waste Connections looks like they will test Canadian manufactured examples as well.


No modern municipality uses labour intensive 'cans' any more << what do you mean?

I know some cities have automated trucks, but many cities, London for instance, are still using all sorts of containers. 
not sure if the trucks have a lift assist.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Nikola is not really worth paying attention to. The company is surrounded with accusations of fraud, and their CEO just resigned.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> No modern municipality uses labour intensive 'cans' any more << what do you mean?
> 
> I know some cities have automated trucks, but many cities, London for instance, are still using all sorts of containers.
> not sure if the trucks have a lift assist.


The use of manually handled 'cans' still dumped by a human into the back of a truck will have to change sooner rather than later to fully automated handling in the municipalities that still have them. We have had automated pickup for 15 years or more, both when I lived in Calgary, and now in the Okanagan. Black carts (household waste), Blue carts (recycling) and Green carts (yard waste). What is collected in what cart varies by municipality.

I cannot imagine a municipal waste management company going to 'new' electric trucks based on 20th century garbage pickup systems. They will need to be the automated kind per the first link I provided in post #71.

Pic of Cart for Automated Handling


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> Nikola is not really worth paying attention to. The company is surrounded with accusations of fraud, and their CEO just resigned.


Those were my thoughts, and that's why I see the news releases, but then the ownership and history of a LOT of these companies is questionable.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Those were my thoughts, and that's why I see the news releases, but then the ownership and history of a LOT of these companies is questionable.


There will eventually be a number of players pursuing this business. Daimler and Volvo are two examples in the 'truck' market.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> The use of manually handled 'cans' still dumped by a human into the back of a truck will have to change sooner rather than later to fully automated handling in the municipalities that still have them.


Ottawa still has manual garbage pickup where citizens are allowed to have any type of can or bag or bin they choose. The guy just heaves the stuff into the back of the truck.

They started a green bin program many years ago that was supposed to be automated, and everyone has the fancy pickup-able bin, but they still just dump it manually into the truck.

Automated handling? Doesn't that require the homeowner to place the bin "just so" that the machine can grab it. Doesn't sound like that would work.

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

like_to_retire said:


> Ottawa still has manual garbage pickup where citizens are allowed to have any type of can or bag or bin they choose. The guy just heaves the stuff into the back of the truck.
> 
> They started a green bin program many years ago that was supposed to be automated, and everyone has the fancy pickup-able bin, but they still just dump it manually into the truck.
> 
> ...


OMG....can't believe that is still the case!!!

The pick up mechanism has quite a bit of latitude in 3 directions to reach and grab the sides of the cart. Can reach between parked cars at the curb if necessary.

The required criteria is to have the front of the cart facing the street on the pavement by the curb. It is also requested to have 18 inches between carts but I've seen them grab carts with less than 12 inches between carts. The lift mechanism must work well because in streets with alleys, I've seen carts are in all sorts of odd positions. If it is clearly so out of whack that the mechanism can't grab it, then it gets left and the homeowner knows better for the following week.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Automated handling? Doesn't that require the homeowner to place the bin "just so" that the machine can grab it. Doesn't sound like that would work.


Works pretty well everywhere they implement it.
It doesn't really need to be "just so", think of the logging equipment that picks up trees for harvesting, nature puts them at all sorts of weird and wonderful orientations.
It just means the garbage man needs to be more of an equipment operator than a mini-hulk.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrMatt said:


> It just means the garbage man needs to be more of an equipment operator than a mini-hulk.


Herein lies the problem. The preferred method in Ottawa is to dump the green bin, blue bin, black bin, and garbage manually into the truck and then throw the bins as far as you can to ensure they get smashed and cracked and then you have to order new ones from the city.

_"requested to have 18 inches between carts"...... _Yeah, that just isn't about to happen in Ottawa I'm afraid. That may work in sophisticated communities, but not in Ottawa. Not a chance.

ltr


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## Zipper (Nov 18, 2015)

Truckers don't even need pit stops. Check the 401 in Ontario for "trucker bombs". Gatoraid bottles filled with a yellow liquid and discarded in the median or shoulder. Some even catheterize so very long distances are possible. Electrics can never compete with these guys.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

like_to_retire said:


> Herein lies the problem. The preferred method in Ottawa is to dump the green bin, blue bin, black bin, and garbage manually into the truck and then throw the bins as far as you can to ensure they get smashed and cracked and then you have to order new ones from the city.
> 
> _"requested to have 18 inches between carts"...... _Yeah, that just isn't about to happen in Ottawa I'm afraid. That may work in sophisticated communities, but not in Ottawa. Not a chance.
> 
> ltr


Well when I was in Waterloo it was great, they gave out blue boxes. 
The truck literally had half a dozen stuck under the frame, if yours was broken, they took it and left you with a new one.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Zipper said:


> Truckers don't even need pit stops. Check the 401 in Ontario for "trucker bombs". Gatoraid bottles filled with a yellow liquid and discarded in the median or shoulder. Some even catheterize so very long distances are possible. Electrics can never compete with these guys.


And your name is Zipper?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> OMG....can't believe that is still the case!!!
> 
> The pick up mechanism has quite a bit of latitude in 3 directions to reach and grab the sides of the cart. Can reach between parked cars at the curb if necessary.
> 
> The required criteria is to have the front of the cart facing the street on the pavement by the curb. It is also requested to have 18 inches between carts but I've seen them grab carts with less than 12 inches between carts. The lift mechanism must work well because in streets with alleys, I've seen carts are in all sorts of odd positions. If it is clearly so out of whack that the mechanism can't grab it, then it gets left and the homeowner knows better for the following week.


In my neighbourhood, we only have organic in wheely bins. They don't use the fully robotic trucks on my street, so usually the guy just reaches in and grabs the bag or two in there. Recycling goes in clear bags. Honestly, the wheely bins are a big of a scourge--they take up a tonne of room and many leave them facing the street.

I like this approach:


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

They do take room but I'd rather dump all my shite in each of the 3 bins than try to manage bags. In any event, it is only a matter of time before the wheeled carts will be everywhere. Municipalities cannot afford to continue paying labour. Even small towns have gone to carts. Old habits die hard.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> They do take room but I'd rather dump all my shite in each of the 3 bins than try to manage bags. In any event, it is only a matter of time before the wheeled carts will be everywhere. Municipalities cannot afford to continue paying labour. Even small towns have gone to carts. Old habits die hard.


We went to carts for garbage and recycle here (picked up by robotic arm) no big deal. Yard waste is still handled by people though.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Zipper said:


> Truckers don't even need pit stops. Check the 401 in Ontario for "trucker bombs". Gatoraid bottles filled with a yellow liquid and discarded in the median or shoulder. Some even catheterize so very long distances are possible. Electrics can never compete with these guys.


When a truck is using $40/hour worth of diesel fuel and an EV would do the same time/distance with $13 worth of electricity, it probably makes sense to stop and charge every 4 or 5 hours to charge for 30 - 45 minutes. The pee break is a nice side effect. Hours of service rules also require 30 minute break within 8 hours of on duty.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

I suspect this won't go very far, but I recall Magna wanted to design and build a "Canadian car" many years ago. It looks like the same players are looking at doing something for the EV market.








Avenging the Avro Arrow: the audacious play to build an all-Canadian electric car


The Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association announced the design Tuesday for a zero-emissions vehicle that can be completely designed, engineered and built in Canada




www.theglobeandmail.com


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

I thought this was worth mentioning. Petro-Canada's EV network is up and running. It concentrates on the East-West route only though. It's pretty limited in that sense, which is why you see the network doesn't go to Edmonton. Doesn't go to Cape Breton either.

Cost is $0.33/min, with an estimated 30 min for complete charge for most cars.









Canada's Electric Highway – EV Fast Charge car charging stations


We’re building a network of EV fast charge car charging stations across Canada. Learn more about how we are there to charge your journey.




www.petro-canada.ca


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Coast to coast, that's a good start!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Zipper said:


> Truckers don't even need pit stops. Check the 401 in Ontario for "trucker bombs". Gatoraid bottles filled with a yellow liquid and discarded in the median or shoulder. Some even catheterize so very long distances are possible. Electrics can never compete with these guys.


Can diesel compete with electric when their energy cost is 1/3?


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Looks like there's research in replenishing spent lithium batteries, not recycle. If the batteries can be refreshed , that would be an impressive development. 








Lithium saturation to make old batteries new


Scientists investigating the aging mechanisms affecting today’s lithium-ion batteries observed that the loss of lithium over time is one of the main causes of performance loss. With this in mind, they developed and tested a “relithiation” process that promises to eliminate much of the cost and...




www.pv-magazine.com


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Don't know if people plan on taking their EV trucks to go camping, but Rivian has an interesting camp kitchen option.









RJ Scaringe on Instagram


RJ Scaringe shared a post on Instagram. Follow their account to see 92 posts.




www.instagram.com


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

To protect the battery it is best to keep EV plugged in hot weather or parked in the sun so energy can be used to keep the battery cool. Though in California when it is hot they tell people not to use their EV as the energy is needed for air conditioning lol


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Most EV batteries are just fine to typical ambient temperatures, even without cooling. And if they did need to cool, the battery could power the thermal management system without being plugged in.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

andrewf said:


> Most EV batteries are just fine to typical ambient temperatures, even without cooling. And if they did need to cool, the battery could power the thermal management system without being plugged in.


I was on an EV site or it was a plug in hybrid site the other day. I forget the exact site. People were posting that they had to plug in their EVs for the fan to come on to keep the battery cool. Someone had posted a picture of their instrumental panel. On the instrument panel it had a warning message when they shut the car off regarding (not exact wording) " temp outside too hot plug in to protect the battery from heat." 

That is the only source of info I was going by. Though the pic of the dashboard makes me think they were probably correct about having to use energy to keep battery cool in certain temps.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok, so some crappy car may or may not have that problem. Teslas not only maintain battery temp, they keep the cabin temp reasonable without being plugged in.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

andrewf said:


> Ok, so some crappy car may or may not have that problem. Teslas not only maintain battery temp, they keep the cabin temp reasonable without being plugged in.


 For longest life a lithium battery charge level should be kept above 30% @ all times. No matter how you slice it energy from somewhere has to be purchased to keep the battery cool when exposed to hot temps


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Can't believe how complicated these EVs are under the hood ...


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Consumer reports tested Tesla model 3 & Nissan Leaf @ temps between 0 & 10 degrees Fahrenheit. For the tesla to go 64 miles 121 miles of range was used for the Leaf to go 64 miles 141 miles of range was used. More energy was needed for heat to keep battery, interior & windows warm. @ -40 plus wind chill from traveling @ highway speeds the amount of energy to keep everything heated will be a lot higher.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Can't believe how complicated these EVs are under the hood ...


Maybe don't generalize?

Not sure how you can describe them as complex, as compared to ICE. Orders of magnitude fewer moving parts.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Maybe don't generalize?
> 
> Not sure how you can describe them as complex, as compared to ICE. Orders of magnitude fewer moving parts.


Not sure what you are getting at, I just didn't expect them to be so complicated "under the hood". I wasn't comparing to ICE, just a general statement.


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## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

If the Tesla Cyber truck is indeed capable of 800km in the real world and the CAD vs USD is looking fairly close I will strongly consider it. I love my current truck, but gas prices and maintenance are adding up fast. 5000 per year in fuel alone.

Many think Telsa is going to vanish soon. I mean the competition is coming, somebody better warn them to stop building factories all around the world, and cancel production of the worlds fastest car (Model S Plaid) in a 4 door sedan, they don't stand a chance.


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## martik777 (Jun 25, 2014)

cainvest said:


> Not sure what you are getting at, I just didn't expect them to be so complicated "under the hood". I wasn't comparing to ICE, just a general statement.


They are both simple and complicated. The drive system consists of 3 major moving parts that replace an ICE and transmission, but the electronics, inverter, battery, thermal management systems are quite complex. One of the disadvantages is that one is at the mercy of the dealership for many repairs, whereas ICE cars can be fixed by the DIY'er.
Here's a detailed look of the Bolt's drive system: (110) Chevrolet Bolt EV Traction Motor - Deep Dive - YouTube


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Looks like Stelco is entering the EV battery recycling business. Anything to reduce the dependence on newly mined materials is good.





Stelco to Enter the Rapidly Growing Electric Vehicle Battery Recycling Market Through Agreements with Technology-Leader Primobius


/NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION TO U.S. NEWSWIRE SERVICES OR FOR DISSEMINATION IN THE UNITED STATES/ Transaction highlights include: Primobius GmbH is a 50:50 joint-venture of leading steelmaking equipment...




investors.stelco.com


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Pretty sure Stelco will file for bankrupcy again in the not too distant future...


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

bgc_fan said:


> Looks like Stelco is entering the EV battery recycling business. Anything to reduce the dependence on newly mined materials is good.


Recycling batteries is hard.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Recycling batteries is hard.


“We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, ..." JFK

Hence, a list of other challenges we've been trying to achieve that includes nuclear fusion to name just one.


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## Mortgage u/w (Feb 6, 2014)

5Lgreenback said:


> If the Tesla Cyber truck is indeed capable of 800km in the real world and the CAD vs USD is looking fairly close I will strongly consider it. I love my current truck, but gas prices and maintenance are adding up fast. 5000 per year in fuel alone.
> 
> Many think Telsa is going to vanish soon. I mean the competition is coming, somebody better warn them to stop building factories all around the world, and cancel production of the worlds fastest car (Model S Plaid) in a 4 door sedan, they don't stand a chance.


Why would Tesla vanish? They've been a disrupter in the automotive industry and managed that in a very short period of time. Although they did not invent the EV, they sure found a way to get them to mainstream status. I've listened to a few of Elon's discourses and he is actually welcoming the competition to work with him rather than against him. Those giga factories are going to be in full production especially if the competition accepts his offer. This is nothing different than all the other car manufactures who already share parts, platforms and tech. Put aside the cars that Tesla is manufacturing, their innovation will be around for good.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Tostig said:


> “We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, ..." JFK
> 
> Hence, a list of other challenges we've been trying to achieve that includes nuclear fusion to name just one.


I'm just thinking that Stelco might not be the best for this.
However they do have a few advantages, lots of industrial experience with a BIG factor and large dangerous processes. 

That being said, the processes to recycle batteries at an industrial scale really don't exist yet. (workflow process, not technology).


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/us/california-heat-wave-flex-alert-ac-ev-charging.html



That's three days after banning all non-electric vehicles


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

People are making way too much of this coincidence. Firstly, it is only a request to avoid charging between peak hours of 4-9 pm (which makes a lot of sense AND can be encouraged with time of day electrical prices). Further the ICE ban of new registrations doesn't kick in until 2035. I'd suggest there is a lot of time for problems to be solved or made worse between Sept 2022 and 2035.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

You are already seeing power-grid problems with less than 10% vehicles on the road being electric.
There really isn't that much time to overhaul electric grid in such a short period of time. 
13 years to overhaul electric grid to handle almost 50-80% cars being electric is not enough time. And with government being in charge of it, it will likely not be done before 3035. 
Until electric grid can handle the demand, the bans are premature


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

It is not really bad policy (but carries political risk) to set the bar high and then to walk it back when they have too. In the meantime, it pushes everyone, e.g. the generators, the grid, the manufacturers and infrastructure to point their headlights in that direction. If success is only 50% EV registrations by 2035, that is better than 25% by 2035.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

And what about electricity prices in the meantime?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

They will no doubt have to go up some but not as much as people think. Considerably more demand will pay for a lot of generation and transmission, especially so if EV charging picks up the slack during low demand hours during the night through time of day pricing. Ideology is getting in the way of rational thought. That all said, electricity prices could double and still be effective. There are plenty of potential solutions.

Nothing much you and I have to worry about though from the outside looking in. Canada is in much better shape than aggressive policy in Sacramento.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

You do realize people pay for electricity whether they use EVs or not? Economy of EV vs fuel vehicle isn't only thing affected my sudden jump in electricity demand and prices


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

I think that for EV's to work they need better time of use pricing to push this down to help balance.

Secondly they need a strategy to offset the gas tax losses. They're going to have to stop subsidizing electricity, and figure out how to tax these vehicles, some of the EV "savings" is just the tax incentives.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

damian13ster said:


> You are already seeing power-grid problems with less than 10% vehicles on the road being electric.
> There really isn't that much time to overhaul electric grid in such a short period of time.
> 13 years to overhaul electric grid to handle almost 50-80% cars being electric is not enough time. And with government being in charge of it, it will likely not be done before 3035.
> Until electric grid can handle the demand, the bans are premature


This is, of course, nonsense. Charging takes place primarily off peak.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

andrewf said:


> This is, of course, nonsense. Charging takes place primarily off peak.


Really?
I would think most people simply come home and plug in their cars, which in Ontario is considered Peak time in the winter, and mid-peak in the summer.
Since I opted OUT of Time of Use billing, it doesn't matter to me if I charge during peak or off peak.

The problem with our power system is peak demand, if it was leveled out, we'd have more than enough capacity.
They really need to figure out how to shift charging to the very low demand times.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Really?
> I would think most people simply come home and plug in their cars, which in Ontario is considered Peak time in the winter, and mid-peak in the summer.
> Since I opted OUT of Time of Use billing, it doesn't matter to me if I charge during peak or off peak.
> 
> ...


Pretty much every electric car comes with a charging timer. It's not as if this isn't obvious functionality. It is better for the battery to start charging in the early morning so it spends less time at high state of charge and the battery is warm when you leave in the morning. Tesla is very good at this, but most OEMs have similar functionality.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> The problem with our power system is peak demand, if it was leveled out, we'd have more than enough capacity.
> They really need to figure out how to shift charging to the very low demand times.


With today's tech I'm sure electric companies could implement an active system to send signals down power lines to indicate when surplus electricity is available. Second to that, they could just use an internet portal in which your car could monitor for supply and rates. Of course either of those systems would need (or should use) a common communications interface so all car makers could implement it from the factory.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Besides EVs coming with time of day chargers, time of day use will become a standard feature for electrical usage. Perhaps 50% of the day rate after 11pm or so until 6am. I think many/most jurisdictions have smart* meters already...as we do. It would be a slam dunk to apply time of day use to my account, and for incentivize me with time of day use. Too many objectors also forget there will be no need for most commuters to start charging as soon as one comes home. In most cases, people won't need to charge more than 1-2 days per week with EVs with a 300+km range. The average daily trip is well under 100km. There are exceptions, of course, such as those who drive long distances, or those who live in multi-family housing or apartments with no/limited access to overnight charging. That will change as new developments wire in Level 2 charging either en masse or for a percentage of units.

* BC Hydro can also tell when service is lost down to the household and trouble shoot outages much quicker. Smart meters can be truly smart. A few links of reading material Smart Electricity Power Meters - Everything You Need to Know and https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/smart-metering There is a lot more smartness going on than the ICE trolls one sees on social media can possibly imagine. It makes some of them look ignorant, or ideological, or both.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

AltaRed said:


> I think many/most jurisdictions have smart* meters already...as we do.


I'm still on the old dial meter, as are all my neighbors. Some of my friends, in both older and newer areas are on digital "smart" meters. Not sure what their schedule is for replacement but was hoping they'd do my area soon as I'd need the new meter to get solar power credits if I go that route.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> I'm still on the old dial meter, as are all my neighbors. Some of my friends, in both older and newer areas are on digital "smart" meters. Not sure what their schedule is for replacement but was hoping they'd do my area soon as I'd need the new meter to get solar power credits if I go that route.


Are you in Ontario? Pretty sure everyone has been upgraded to smart meters here, over a decade ago.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Are you in Ontario?


Nope MB.


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Are you in Ontario? Pretty sure everyone has been upgraded to smart meters here, over a decade ago.


Many rural customers are still on the old meters in Ontario. I still have the meter person dropping by every few months.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

They're still smart meters with TOU pricing, no?


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## Synergy (Mar 18, 2013)

andrewf said:


> They're still smart meters with TOU pricing, no?


No, we are the old non-smart meters and no TOU pricing. 

See link below to Hydro One's tiered pricing for rural customers, etc.





Hydro One


Hydro One is Canada’s largest electricity transmission and distribution service provider. We transmit and distribute electricity across Ontario, home to 38 per cent of Canada’s population




www.hydroone.com


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I guess it's kind of a moot point if a small % of customers in a grid are not subject to TOU pricing for demand shaping. It's kind of like the people who say "EVs will never work because I drive 3 hours into the bush, hundreds of km from the nearest electrical outlet". I'm sure those people exist, but they are not a meaningful percentage of the market.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

😅


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> It's kind of like the people who say "EVs will never work because I drive 3 hours into the bush, hundreds of km from the nearest electrical outlet". I'm sure those people exist, but they are not a meaningful percentage of the market.


Was out in lake country on the weekend and surprised to see a model X on the highway. Easily 80km from a charge station so likely owns a cottage out there. In MB a fair number of cottage owners (more growing each year) drive over 2-3 hours out of the city for the weekend.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

We see an increasing number of EVs of various brands out here in the BC Interior, including some in more remote areas. After several months of ownership, people are getting used to just how much range they can get from many models of EVs. Human nature being what it is, I think we'd all behave in similar ways.....be cautious at first until we have confidence in actual range.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

cainvest said:


> I'm still on the old dial meter, as are all my neighbors. Some of my friends, in both older and newer areas are on digital "smart" meters. Not sure what their schedule is for replacement but was hoping they'd do my area soon as I'd need the new meter to get solar power credits if I go that route.


Well, not that I am counselling an offence, of course, but you can always give yourself some "credit" with an old dial meter. I learned from an electrician in 1983 that you can pull the meter, turn it upside down, and it will run backwards.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Was out in lake country on the weekend and surprised to see a model X on the highway. Easily 80km from a charge station so likely owns a cottage out there. In MB a fair number of cottage owners (more growing each year) drive over 2-3 hours out of the city for the weekend.


Same in Ontario. But 2-3 hours out of the city doesn't mean out of range of civilization. If you have an electric outlet, you can charge an EV.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Mukhang pera said:


> Well, not that I am counselling an offence, of course, but you can always give yourself some "credit" with an old dial meter. I learned from an electrician in 1983 that you can pull the meter, turn it upside down, and it will run backwards.


That could turn into a big bill if the timing is bad and they read the meter numbers backwards.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Same in Ontario. But 2-3 hours out of the city doesn't mean out of range of civilization. If you have an electric outlet, you can charge an EV.


That's why I said ... likely a cottage owner. 

Lets see how long it takes before I see an EV towing a large boat or camper-trailer out there.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Cowboys said the same thing before gas stations were built on every corner

Now you'd have a hard time to find place to take a horse. Society changes. Imagine when we have battery banks in every house with computers smart enough to manage off peak load

Some people see possibilities and some people see problems because they have no imagination


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

For campers, most camp grounds, particularly those that would have campers, have the ability to charge EVs at a pretty good clip in the form of serviced sites.

Depending on how much long distance towing you do, an EV pickup may be worth the huge energy savings for the longer towing trip times involved in charging every 100 miles. If you only do it a few times a year, maybe that inconvenience is worth the thousands of dollars of annual savings?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

By the way, if you're curious about charging options in your area, there are services that map charging locations. We're just in the beginning of the rollout of charging stations, as the fleet is only in low single digit % EV.









PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge


Find EV charging stations with PlugShare, the most complete map of electric vehicle charging stations in the world!Charging tips reviews and photos from the EV community.



www.plugshare.com


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> For campers, most camp grounds, particularly those that would have campers, have the ability to charge EVs at a pretty good clip in the form of serviced sites.
> 
> Depending on how much long distance towing you do, an EV pickup may be worth the huge energy savings for the longer towing trip times involved in charging every 100 miles. If you only do it a few times a year, maybe that inconvenience is worth the thousands of dollars of annual savings?


It might work for some people, very specific on where and how far you are going.

Here's a good real world test ...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> It might work for some people, very specific on where and how far you are going.
> 
> Here's a good real world test ...


Need to add batteries to the trailers and maybe more regenerative braking to charge them would be nice

Use the trailer battery at home or when parked for off-peak grid storage and outage coverage. Also redesign the RV with the EV in mind and you have a pretty sweet off-grid setup. Add solar panels to the roof etc. Get ride of AC inverters that most people plug DC devices into

Think how much ICE vehicles have improved over the decades.. this is only the beginning


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> It might work for some people, very specific on where and how far you are going.
> 
> Here's a good real world test ...


I think what becomes important is the charge curve and the charge rate available at fast charging stations. For big EVs like pickups, you really want a vehicle capable of accepting 250kw charging, and staying near that rate for a large part of the bottom 70-80% of the charging curve. Tesla has been hinting upgrades to their charging stations to 350kw, too. They are also starting to deploy close to megawatt/1000kw chargers for their Semi product. If you can drive 100 mi (1.5 - 2 hours) and charge for 20-30 minutes, and saving on ~40L of fuel consumption might be worth the extra time. Then the rest of the year you save a lot on day to day usage.

The F-150 Lightning can only charge at 150kw maximum, which seems like a major problem for a high consumption vehicle. Rivian claims they can charge their R1T at up to 222kw. I would expect Tesla's Cybertruck to be able to charge up to 250kw for a large part of their charge curve (smaller battery packs in Model 3/Y can sustain this rate of charge). Probably can handle more if upgraded to 350kw charger.

To me, for a work truck around town (say a landscaper), EVs seem like the obvious choice.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> To me, for a work truck around town (say a landscaper), EVs seem like the obvious choice.


I'd think the hybrids, like a Maverick, would probably do best for them.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

A lot of fleet operators discovered that plug in hybrids tend not to get plugged in and the savings don't always materialize. It's just the boss' gas anyway.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

There is no reason for a hybrid in almost all urban uses. Perhaps a 'parts' truck that runs to 10 auto dealerships in 3 towns in one day but even then, it might be hard pressed to put on more than 200km in a day. There are just so few 'needs' to have anything other than a pure BEV and for those instances, that is what a hybrid would be for. I sense people too often think in extremes. If we got to a 70% BEV and 20% hybrid and 10% ICE solution by some future date, the planet would be so much better off.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

In town I'm sure fleet EV is fine for range but of course you have the upfront cost. You could buy two Maverick hybrids for the price of one EV truck.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Has anyone tried this Hyundai EV evaluation program?

It looks interesting, but I haven't tried it. Apparently (in some cities) you can rent Hyundai EVs for extended durations. I'm definitely open to getting an EV, eventually, and this might be a nice way to try the EV over time to see if I like it.

In particular I'd like to try this on extended highway drives to see how it really works out for long distances. That's really my main concern with EVs.


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