# Have we taken "Do what you Love" too far?



## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

Last week there was a series of articles in the local paper on how the younger generation is one of the most disenchanted groups in recent history. I see the same thing with my adult son and daughter and several of their friends. 

My son, 23, was recently complaining about how his job seemed like a dead-end job and how frustrated he was with things in general. He's making a middle-range salary in a job from his field of study and has good benefits. He just bought a 2010 vehicle with cash and is saving to buy his own place. I think it is perfectly normal to at some point start asking such questions, but at 23? At 23 I was just happy to have some money to head out to the pub with my friends. 

It seems to me that most folks were much happier with their careers in earlier times when work was expected to be work. I realized that striving to do what you love can have it's place if it leads to positive motivation. However, I'm wondering if we've taken this "don't settle for any work you don't love" concept too far? Would it perhaps be more realistic for most of us to strive to find a sense of purpose from our work than to try to love it?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Of course we have. It's ridiculous advice, and often handed out to women.

Penelope Trunk is crazy, but this is good advice: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/12/18/bad-career-advice-do-what-you-love/

Excerpt, bold added:

"Often, the thing we should do for our career is something we would only do if we were getting a reward. *If you tell yourself that your job has to be something you’d do even if you didn’t get paid, you’ll be looking for a long time. Maybe forever*. So why set that standard? The reward for doing a job is contributing to something larger than you are, participating in society, and being valued in the form of money."


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

“There were two ways to be happy: improve your reality, or lower your expectations”
― Jodi Picoult


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Some good research-based advice here:

http://80000hours.org/blog/62-don-t-do-what-you-re-passionate-about-part-2

and especially:

http://80000hours.org/blog/63-do-what-you-re-passionate-about-part-2

"One 2002 study of Canadian students showed that 84% had passions, but these were mostly sports and music. Only 4% had passions that were relevant to work (4). In these cases, ‘do what you’re passionate about’ is actively harmful, since you don’t have a useful passion to begin with. This advice merely prompts anxious soul-searching."


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

If you love your work and take an interest in it you will be happier than if you don't. But there is also something to be said for a steady pay check.

I read something a long time ago by an old doctor. He said he had advised patients who were unhappy in their work or in their lives, to change and do something they really wanted to do. This almost never worked out. Later he advised them to learn to be happy with the life they had. This usually worked out better.

Or, sometimes you can get what your heart desires, sometimes you have to take what you can get and make the best of it. Don't make the worst of it. Make the best of it.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Since retirement, I have learned that, even though I love my jobs over 35 years, I like retirement better. I suspect that boredom sets in when you are doing the same thing over again. I had business associates who spent 35 years doing the same job over again. That can lead to burn out if one does not love it. I changed jobs every 2-3 years. But that is no longer possible I believe.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

People of ALL ages complain far too much, period! Since when is/was life a bed of roses?

Even if you don't love your work, there is a thing called pride. Unfortunately there is also mediocrity by choice! 

Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving. ― Albert Einstein

Like Nemo's quote as well!


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Personally, I don't think many people can ever be happy with any job. You will never, truly, be in control of your life. Even people who are self employed need to work for others. 

The secret is to minimize the work you have to do. That's why I teach my kids to develop passive income. 

Don't get me wrong, this is still work, but chances are its a lot less work than other people must endure. 

The other thing to remember is to take time to enjoy life once in a while. I know plenty of people who are"doing what they love" as a job (they've found a way to turn their passion into a career), but the successful ones. Remember to not let the work take over their lives. This is now common with the "type a" personalities who run their own business, they become so focused on "making things better" that they are miserable, because they don't see themselves "living the dream" when they look around, all they are is more work that needs to be done. 

Finally, I think people are under a lot of pressure to appear successful. Having the "stuff" which includes toys and titles. Ever notice how one of the first questions that comes up when you meet people is "what do you do?" Many people, even family judge you on your answer. For years, my family always looked down on me because I was self employed, whereas they were all professionals. They never understood what I did when it came to investing, so it was assumed I was the "poor" one in the family who, eventually, would have to be bailed out financially...

I rarely brought up the subject with family, but even when things came out, they could never understand how it was possible for me to have money. They still would rather believe I'm poor since I never really had a job, or seem to work very hard...I never fit into their view of how the world works. They still have no idea of what my job title is...

I expect my kids to have to work when they get older, I just hope they don't have to work as much as others and can enjoy life.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> 1. The secret is to minimize the work you have to do.
> 2. That's why I teach my kids to develop passive income.
> 3. The other thing to remember is to take time to enjoy life once in a while.
> 4. Ever notice how one of the first questions that comes up when you meet people is "what do you do?"


1. Plenty already do that as Marina was explaining in another thread, but expect to be paid whether or not they work the hours they are getting paid for.
2. Know what 2 out of the 5 giant evils are?
3. Not just once in a while, but often as life is short. However, there is a right time & place for that.
4. I see nothing wrong with that question, unless a total stranger is asking it.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Just a Guy said:


> Ever notice how one of the first questions that comes up when you meet people is "what do you do?"


Just as an aside, this is mainly a North American thing. In Europe, most people seem to be interested in who you are, rather than what you do, and they see the two things as separate whereas over here we tend to form an identity based on what we do, and we categorize people based on their occupation. We go to France every couple of years to visit my girlfriend's family and friends, and I don't think any of them have any idea what I do for a living (I don't have any idea what any of them do either), despite having spent many, many hours together over the past decade.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

There are a few things that I think can help your happiness in the workplace. For example:

- Physically lazy people shouldn't work in trades. Yet lazy people often end up in trades as a last resort because they are lazy and run out of options.
- For most people, artwork (art, music, etc.) won't pay the bills.
- People who like working with their hands shouldn't get desk jobs.
- Half the fun is the challenge. If you are bored you will be unhappy. Look for new challenges.
- If you don't like a good challenge, you will probably have a mediocre life. Good things don't come free, so if you don't care to try you won't succeed.
- I don't believe in pure luck over long periods of time. Luck is opportunity WITH preperation. 

The luck is one thing that really bothers me. People say I'm so lucky to have a good job and be financially independent, etc. Well, I get up early every day, I get to work first, I leave last, I try very hard, I'm always on time and I'm always there. The person telling me I'm lucky is often late for work, misses time, doesn't like to work hard, is more concerned about the next break than getting the job done, etc.

I sacrifice an awful lot just so I can be "lucky". The only reason I'm "lucky" is because I avoid bad situations like the plague. 

Do I like working? No. But I do like being a productive person and being able to look back and seeing a large part of a project succeed due to my efforts. I think half the secret to enjoying your job is having enough money to be content. The other half is being proud of your production.

If you paint a picture and that makes you happy, great. If that artwork doesn't put food in your stomach than you will likely be miserable. If your job pays well but consists of making excel spreadsheets all day and you don't see the point to your existence than you'll likely be equally unhappy.

I think you need to seek a balance between the two.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I am passionate about what do. To be honest, I am passionate about most things I do, not because I love it though.

I am teaching my kids the things we have to do in life that we may not like, it the must. What we do have control over is how we view it. If we can look at the positive and what we do gain, then it keeps you much happier than what we don't like. 

I have been in cases where I didn't enjoy the work, but the positive was I knew I would be short term. Other times, it may not be something I am comfortable with, but look a it as expanding skill. 

I remember hearing at a seminar really nothing is perfect, but if you focus on the imperfections, you will be unhappy.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

I've haven't been happy in my job for the 24 years I've been doing it. But early on I realized that I was good at the job, the pay was quite good, and if kept my head down and worked hard I would be in a financial position to make some changes at a some point. Some would question why a person would keep working at a job they didn't really like - in my case, I wasn't entirely sure that I could learn another trade that easily - with no guarentee that I would like it any better than my current job in the long run. 41 now, and getting close to the point that I can walk away from it all. Quite surreal when I sit down and think about what life could look like without the 5am alarm clock, crappy commute, neandrathal co-workers, west coast winter monsoons with leaky rain gear etc, etc. Might take a bit, but I think i will adjust to it.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^ I know someone really successful, and started and sold 3-4 companies (maybe a couple more) for at least 8 figures each. He's really good at starting up companies, or taking over small companies, and then bringing them to the point a large national company wants to buy them. He would work 80-90 hour weeks, and you would think he loves it because he could have retired after the first. 

He told me that really, he's doesn't love what he does, nor is it his dream. He does it because everyone has to do something, and since he's really good at what he does, and it compensation cannot be compared to anything else, he does it. He realizes it allows him to live the life outside of work that he wants. He's a world traveler, with experiences for him and his family he would never be able to do unless he was a celebrity or pro athlete. He has very high expectations, but he realizes that even he cannot have it all.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

jcgd said:


> - Half the fun is the challenge. If you are bored you will be unhappy. Look for new challenges.
> - If you don't like a good challenge, you will probably have a mediocre life. Good things don't come free, so if you don't care to try you won't succeed.


Couldn't agree more.

Just a Guy - it is nice to sometimes fly under the radar and simply go about your life though isn't it.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

This "do what you love"crap IMO is the same **** as reading the book the secret or listening to Oprah Winfrey or some other celebrity looking to cash in selling "hopes and dreams" to the masses!
selling these ideas only do one thing and one thing only IMO and that is to put money into whoever is selling it.
Real happiness I think is having something or some goal your working towards and you can see it coming a reality,concrete steps and a action towards whatever it is.
I struggle sometimes being happy in my work-life but understand it will have ebbs and flows and bad periods but also the flip side is there is good days weeks myths or certain projects or people I am working with that makes it great!Life ain't suppose to be all rainbows and sunshine and I don't think I would want to life that life anyways!
I think you take what your doing(occupation/career)and you try to build off whatever positives there are and try to maintain a positive mental attitude,there is usually always something in ones work life that has potential or something that can be worked on to make your job/career better!
Half the reason I think most people are miserable with work is because they think its suppose to be this bliss crap the media sells.
my grandfather was the happiest man I knew and he never once was reading this do what you love or 4 day work week or whatever,he was just a real man and got up everyday & went to work and took care of his responsibilies and that is what made him happy(he built a successful business)


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Cal said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> Just a Guy - it is nice to sometimes fly under the radar and simply go about your life though isn't it.


Considering how the lives of professional athletes tends to turn out, I'd have to agree.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I definitely think "don't settle for any work you don't love" concept has gone way too far....

At 23, I'd just count myself very lucky to have a job in my field of education and/or training. Otherwise, that's just being entitled or simply arrogant.

Like Jon Snow, while I like my job, I don't love it but I'm very fortunate to have it and work hard to keep it. If I continue to do what is asked of me and more, hopefully things will work out long term. Keeping the job I have in this field should allow me to achieve my financial freedom in 10 years (or so) around age 50. Time will tell....

You can't always be happy at work, there will always be ups and downs, but a lot of it is attitude. Change your attitude about work and often you'll get some satisfaction from it. Just my take...


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I follow the "don't hate what you do" philosophy. The job I do suits my temperament, I work for a company I have no moral objection to, I generally like the people I work with, and I don't mind the tasks I perform. I can't say that I'm doing what I love, but I don't mind what I do.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Spidey said:


> Last week there was a series of articles in the local paper on how the younger generation is one of the most disenchanted groups in recent history. I see the same thing with my adult son and daughter and several of their friends.


I write this as a 30 year old guy. We (young workers) aren't disenchanted because of a touchy feely notion that we should do something in life we love or that we're not getting enough hugs

We're disenchanted because the writing is on the wall: the economy sucks and it's not getting better and working harder isn't going to make you wealthier.

1. If you're lucky enough to find a (well paying) job you're unlikely to still have it after layoffs happen every few years
2. There's very little job security out there
3. Real wages never increase; this is the real kicker
4. Older boomers are hogging senior jobs and blocking advancement paths - mostly because their pensions & investments suck so they have to work longer
5. For younger workers, houses are totally unaffordable. Even rent is barely affordable
6. There's no improvement on the horizon as it's been like this for 13 years and counting (i.e. ALL my working years)
7. We will never have a pension


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

This is one of those threads worth logging in for on the forum (except for one post lol). It shows me the mindset and attitude that people have that are inclined to spend some time on a forum devoted to work,investing,etc. I doubt this thread would fly on Huffington Post etc haha.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Spidey said:


> It seems to me that most folks were much happier with their careers in earlier times when work was expected to be work.


Are you talking about the 80s or 90s or something?

I think people _were_ happier with their careers, and I think it's because real wages were increasing, there were visible paths of career progression, and the economy was strong. It was a boom time... remember we just came out of a 20 year bull market, the strongest expansion of western wealth in history!

Shouldn't be a mystery why people were happier and more fulfilled with their work back then!

Compare to today. For us young guys & gals, we're staring down a long hallway ... of economic stagnation. The economy has been a wreck since 2000 and even when they tell us things are booming (like today) we still know it's a wreck, and we know it because our pay sucks and there's no advancement possibilities. Oh and we keep getting laid off.

Meanwhile, the cost of housing and fuel keeps going higher and I get these assholes at the Bank of Canada telling me there's no inflation and everything is great. This would be a lot easier to believe if cost of living didn't keep rising while my pay stayed constant!!

You 40 and 50 year olds may not care, but I do. I've got a whole working life ahead of me and I'm seeing my best years dragged back by an economy that is literally non-functioning ... it has crashed *twice* now in the short time I've been out of high school.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Have things really been that bad?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Just look at the statistics of consumer debt and the amazing pace of debt increase.

I don't think people want to take on debt. I think they more or less have to borrow, to make up the growing difference between what they earn and the cost of living. The way I see it, that chart of household debt-to-income is absolutely the picture of "tough times"


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

it was worse in my grandparents generation without a doubt(this is mo and facts I draw on if I find myself complaining)He(grandfather)watched his parents get hung on a tree(Stalin)and fled to south America and than Canada with a nickel in his pocket,no English and five kids and a wife and went to work starting with dry walling to feed his family.After 20 yrs in Canada he built a successful construction company(classic immigrant story)
I don't buy its tougher now.
there is a shininess and for lack of a better word cry baby ness in our work culture now,I don't know when it change like this but it did.Even growing up I don't remember my father comlianing and there wasn't this "Oprah" crap.People just got on with it(I'm talking hard working middle class,productive members of society-the backbone of Canada's economy)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

donald you win, that sounds worse.

I'm not saying it's the worst time in history by any means and we're better off than MOST countries (it's all relative) but -- I really think this is a poor economy compared to the boom of 1980-2000.

The danger of living in denial of this fact is that (in my opinion) you'll get blind sided by poorly performing stock investments, especially when boomers start liquidating their wealth and nobody steps forward to buy them. Young people don't make enough money to accumulate savings & investments and they are simply NOT buying. So if you're say 50 years old and think your stocks are great investments, because you assume that younger workers are going to roll all their fabulous incomes into stock markets ... well I suggest you think again.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I graduated in 1974...the year BC elected their 1st NDP gov. Those days there was zero jobs in BC. I was laid off within a month as companies fled the Socialists . In 1983 I was earning $20/hr (a fine wage)...we had a company meeting on a Friday and was told that my wages would be $12/hour come Monday and they would understand if I didn't show up.
With a mortgage and 4 kids I did show up but found work on evenings & weekends to carry on. We all did in that recession. Times are much better for our youth today...suck it up.

btw my Grandfather also was killed by Stalin...he hid a bucket of potatoes under the floor at the collective farm. The secret police shot him in front of my Mom and the rest of his family.

Sometimes we need to put the iPhone down and be grateful.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm with you eder.Both my grandparents(russian/italian)immigrants did not travel easy roads(i'm 34 by the way)My grandfather who fled stalin was a 12 yr old boy and he was basically on his own from then on.Makes our society seem pathetic really(the ''struggles'' we cry about-of course i' guilty of this also)


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

Jeez, I'm kicking it old school. Not many jobs in Nova Scotia soI left for Alberta. Went from $6.80 at McDonald's to $15/hr overnight. Literally. Worked hard because I was naive and thought you had to so I was skipped over during the layoffs in 2009/2010. Been with the same company exactly seven years and I make fine money as a journeyman. Haven't needed for anything in my short life. People always ask me how I'm not hurting for money. The answer is this forum and I found the strength not to buy a gas guzzling truck that costs me $1200 a month. I educate myself on finances and spend much less than I earn. 

Maybe I'm a special situation, or maybe there is simply no excuse for a 25 year old making $100k a year to be flat broke all the time.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

not sure if your applying your flat broke or not?I likely doubt you are.Your probably allocating half your income towards investments?and your sitting on the sidelines on real estate?Your planting your crop,your harvest will be later.You prob feel broke because your lifestyle is vastly under what it can be if you decided to spend like a typical canadian.
I'm still doing that and I'm 9 yrs old than you,you make a nice income(I have a similar income)In 15 yrs you will be wealthy-how won't you be?guess it depends what one considered being wealthy.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

Donald, I'm saying I'm nowhere near flat broke and I don't understand how anyone with my income could be. Sorry, I was on a bit of a rant there. 

Many of my coworkers have no money and live paycheque to paycheque. There are no excuses when you make the kind money we make. It's simple, spend less. I don't think the cost of living is too high compared to my income. I mean, the wife is in school full time and we still live off less than half my take home pay. I still buy all the necessities and spend thousands in tuition and travel every year.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Spidey said:


> Last week there was a series of articles in the local paper on how the younger generation is one of the most disenchanted groups in recent history. I see the same thing with my adult son and daughter and several of their friends.
> 
> My son, 23, was recently complaining about how his job seemed like a dead-end job and how frustrated he was with things in general. He's making a middle-range salary in a job from his field of study and has good benefits. He just bought a 2010 vehicle with cash and is saving to buy his own place. I think it is perfectly normal to at some point start asking such questions, but at 23? At 23 I was just happy to have some money to head out to the pub with my friends.
> 
> It seems to me that most folks were much happier with their careers in earlier times when work was expected to be work. I realized that striving to do what you love can have it's place if it leads to positive motivation. However, I'm wondering if we've taken this "don't settle for any work you don't love" concept too far? Would it perhaps be more realistic for most of us to strive to find a sense of purpose from our work than to try to love it?


Being one of my favorite countries I've travelled in, I was reading something about Turkey a while back. They were interviewing an older man in a small village about the coming of mass media. He was saying how the younger people only want everything they see on TV, and want it now. Where in his day, it was enough to have a community and a vocation. It was enough and everybody was happy.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Young people today have fantastic opportunities in the next 5-10 years.
Expectations are far to high.

I never had a job that I hated just ones that offered a different perspective.
Don't recall loving my job but then again I only had to read the buyout/ retirement offer for a few minutes before asking where to sign.

It was a decent job that provided for my family and like anything in life had its moments.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

brad said:


> Just as an aside, this is mainly a North American thing. In Europe, most people seem to be interested in who you are, rather than what you do, and they see the two things as separate whereas over here we tend to form an identity based on what we do, and we categorize people based on their occupation.


I think this could actually be a root of the problem. Americans really do live to work, rather than work to live etc. They seem to frown on taking some time to pursue a passion. Money is a limiting factor, but it seems what most Americans really lack is the time. They often judge people by how early they arrive and how late they work (and how available they are after work) as if that equates to the quality of work in between. At my work I think it's great that family issues are accommodated (as well as time for physical activity etc) but pursuing a hobby is not. There are many ways to accommodate passions but they aren't culturally acceptable at most NA jobs. I have noticed many people with really passionate hobbies switch to something with more flexible schedules. The other option is to work really hard through youth and retire early, but this isn't always ideal. It seems to be ok for many to sit on forums and twitter at work, but not to leave early for a hobby.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

jcgd said:


> Jeez, I'm kicking it old school. Not many jobs in Nova Scotia soI left for Alberta. Went from $6.80 at McDonald's to $15/hr overnight. Literally. Worked hard because I was naive and thought you had to so I was skipped over during the layoffs in 2009/2010. Been with the same company exactly seven years and I make fine money as a journeyman. Haven't needed for anything in my short life. People always ask me how I'm not hurting for money. The answer is this forum and I found the strength not to buy a gas guzzling truck that costs me $1200 a month. I educate myself on finances and spend much less than I earn.
> 
> Maybe I'm a special situation, or maybe there is simply no excuse for a 25 year old making $100k a year to be flat broke all the time.


You keep impressing me jcgd! I think you're an amazing young man.

*Donald/Eder:* I have more in common with you than I ever thought.

Great posts by all 3!


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> You keep impressing me jcgd! I think you're an amazing young man.
> 
> *Donald/Eder:* *I have more in common with you than I ever thought*.
> 
> Great posts by all 3!


Add me to the list. My mother's grandparents, in particular, make the trek to North America in search of a better life for their descendants and suffered tremendous hardship in the new country (my mother's grandfather was killed in a railway accident and his wife, illiterate in both her own language and in English, was widowed at 35 with 8 children). Every child in that family worked as soon as they were able. My grandfather's memoir is entitled "A Bucket of Bent Nails" because that was his job as a very young child: straightening bent nails for re-use.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

indexxx said:


> He was saying how the younger people *[in Turkey]* only want everything they see on TV, and want it now.


I would not compare the youth of Turkey with that of Canada, [not that you were doing that, but just saying] because even 10 years ago, that country was very different from today; only 20 years ago, you could still be jailed for having sex outside marriage for example, so the young people now with today's yet limited freedoms there, have sort of exploded if you will, and are hungry for sex and everything else! Also, life is significantly more difficult there, so unless you have wealthy parents, the young people there have to work very hard for what they get & does not come as easy, or as cheaply for them as it does here. I know someone who bought an iPhone 4S in Bursa, Turkey last year for $2.4K TLira [conversion rate at that time maybe = $2K CDN]. 

There is internet censorship, and even YouTube is routinely banned by the courts there from time to time, joining the actions of just China, Iran and few others. Sex and the City was banned there as well, because of the gay content. 

Anyhow, my point is that the youth there have it way harder than those here. 

As Eder says, suck it up. You don't make enough money, find a 2nd job; if you're single and young, you can even work 3 jobs. 

I know a couple, fairly new immigrants from the Philippines, making less than $20/hr.; after being here approx. 3 years, last summer they purchased a townhouse, and I don't hear them complain about anything, on the contrary, they can't believe how lucky they are to have been accepted to live in Canada.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You know, the "good old days" of the 80's and 90's weren't always so great. I remember, as part of my class, we'd have industry mdmbers come in to talk about possible jobs...

It usually boiled down to "we're not hiring and I may not have a job next week". 

Out of a graduating class of 600+, I was the only one I know of who got a job right out of school in something even close to my field. Two years later I was "downsized" along with the entire division. 

I decided then to start my own company. 

A few years later, after doing quite well, I was injured and discovered that there are no safety nets for the self employed (no ei, no welfare, no nothing). I had 3 kids and no income and only a bit of savings. We'd just bought a new house, and things looked bleak. That's when I made the tough decision to learn about investing. 

Funny thing is, a few years after graduating, probably around the time I was hurt, everything had changed. Kids were interviewing companies to see if they'd consider working for them. They demanded huge starting salaries, even if they could barely spell their names...

Of course that boom ended eventually, and they were the first on the firing line. Most are probably still unemployed today because they can't find something worthy of them. 

To me, it's always been if you don't like what you're doing, change it. I don't mean quit your job, but go look for a different one, land it and then quit. 

Part of the reason I became self employed was so that I was never doing the same thing everyday. I want to do something different. I go get a new client who wants something different. Each new client is a new job interview, each client a new boss. I've got hundreds to choose from everyday, as well as hundreds to keep happy.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

plugging i think your work attitudes are The Best!

you're never afraid & you don't really allow yourself to remain unhappy. I remember how you once posted that, at a junior level, you'd volunteer for extra responsibilities & tasks just to gain the experience.

it often seems to me that, although clearly you never overlook the remuneration, nevertheless your principal work goal is to evolve towards & become the best professional you possibly can be.

it'll be fascinating to see how your daughters turn out. Will they take after the mother? it can be comical how often ados seem to want to go in the opposite direction ...


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> it'll be fascinating to see how your daughters turn out...


In many instances, 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.'

*M.Gal:* consider yourself added! :wink:


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> 1. To me, it's always been if you don't like what you're doing, change it....*go look for a different one, land it and then quit.*
> 2. I became self employed....as well as *hundreds to keep happy*.


*1.* Exactly!

I'll never forget how an ex-boss of mine [female], said to a group of us at a meeting [right after hiring someone with zero experience], that if we were not happy with the new addition to the team, that we knew where to find the door. I did, not because of the new hire, but because I could not stand the boss' attitude. 

I'll never forget when TD insurance told me that, if I was not happy with my rates [after an obscene renewal increase for no reason at all], to go shop around. I did, and found much better rates as it turned out! Although I wonder, if these days, they continue to speak to customers in that manner. 

*2.* As a student, I worked every w/end at a hospital, and also was a freelance translator; the latter more out of interest & wishing to help than for money [often did it for free]. I found employment immediately following graduation, then in recent years, came the takeover waves/a great severance package as relocation was not an option/financial crisis/and saw it as an opportunity to becoming self-employed, and do all the other stuff I love, ie: volunteer. Life is indeed like riding a bicycle, if you don't keep moving, in time you'll become irrelevant.

You can almost hear how much it means to you to keep your customers happy!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our generation probably did our kids a major disservice by telling them they can be anything they want to be.

It simply isn't true............and now the disillusionment has set in.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

You can do whatever you want to do...you can't always do it the WAY you want, so you need to adapt. I, and people I know, are doing what they wanted to do, but reality dictated the way in which we accomplished it. 

That's even true of investing. I want passive income (which implies no work), the reality is I work for my income, though admittedly not as hard as others do for a paycheque.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I think this is a natural result of the changes that have taken place in the World - and the lack of true satisfaction. Read this article about BullSh!t jobs.

When people are wandering the World now for 30+ years before thinking of having children, there is ample time to look to one's passion as a career.

Count me among the fortunate few that really loves what they do - but I'm also pragmatic about it - In the end, providing life essential provisions is absolutely necessary, if you passion doesn't allow you to do this for yourself and your family, keep it as a hobby.


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

I think sometimes "doing what you want" gets confused with "doing everything you want". I'm a firm believer that you can have the first if you're willing to make sacrifices.

Secondly I think that everyone needs to look at their own lives every so often and internalize that, in conjunction with all the external forces, they are still primarily a product of all the choices they've made this far. From there it's the next choices that are made that define where you will be in the future, not just the ones in the past. I am from the school of "suck it up and press on" but I am also insanely optimistic for myself and my children if they choose to work hard. I will absolutely tell them to do what they love to do - but accept the risks and the consequences with open eyes. 

To do what I was most interested in entailed a lot of risk, uncerainty. possible failure, leaving behind everything I knew to move to a new country and delaying the typical life of my peers for years. In the end I got to where I wanted to be. I see people doing it every day and some of them will have to change their goals at some point, but I wouldn't tell them not to try. I'm convinced it isn't the smartest that will make it, it's the ones that want it most.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Are you talking about the 80s or 90s or something?
> 
> I think people _were_ happier with their careers, and I think it's because real wages were increasing, there were visible paths of career progression, and the economy was strong. It was a boom time... remember we just came out of a 20 year bull market, the strongest expansion of western wealth in history!
> 
> ...


Actually, I was thinking more about the 50s and 60s. (Although I'm not old enough to have worked then.) I always got the feeling that my father, uncles or other adults only expected to put in a decent days work for a paycheck and it was almost unheard of to hear that generation talk of low job satisfaction. I think the seeds of work discontent started in the 70s and 80s. 

It may not be evident but market crashes are fantastic strokes of luck for young investors as it is an opportunity to load up stocks cheap with a large time horizon for them to see their stocks recover. These are the types of markets where fortunes can be built. It is the people near retirement who most suffer from lousy markets. 

I am in a position where I am currently working side by side with many younger people and I do notice a difference in attitude and work-ethic. Very generally speaking, it seems that younger people will do what is required and that is it. They seem to lack the capacity or interest to notice a side-issue that crops up during the assignment that should be looked into or taken care of. 

That being said, I do agree that there are some hurdles for young people in today's job market due to the changing economy and I see these struggles with several of my son's and daughter's friends.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

All this week, just for you Millennial Generation:

*Infographic: Dude, Where's My Future?*

This week, The Agenda is examining whether or not people from the Millennial Generation (those born in the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s) are facing special challenges when trying to obtain a middle class lifestyle. As part of our content to kick-off the week, we thought it'd be interesting to provide a snapshot of the financial realities facing 20-somethings today. 

http://theagenda.tvo.org/blog/agenda-blogs/infographic-dude-wheres-my-future

Advice from Janice Stein: 

1) you know nothing [don't fully agree with this point]
2) open your mind/listen/be humble.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> plugging i think your work attitudes are The Best!
> 
> you're never afraid & you don't really allow yourself to remain unhappy. I remember how you once posted that, at a junior level, you'd volunteer for extra responsibilities & tasks just to gain the experience.
> 
> ...


:02.47-tranquillity: ah thanks for such a wonderful compliment. I think the ladies on this forum are quite amazing, and it will be interesting to see how all our offspring turn out. I can only hope that if my kids take an opposite direction, which I have no doubt they cold, I hope I have provided them enough of a foundation to make they best decisions for their own path. 



sags said:


> Our generation probably did our kids a major disservice by telling them they can be anything they want to be.
> 
> It simply isn't true............and now the disillusionment has set in.


I do still believe I can be anything I want, but I have to be willing to do whatever it takes. I believe that I can have it all, but it may not be all at once.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> *1.* Exactly!
> 
> I'll never forget how an ex-boss of mine [female], said to a group of us at a meeting [right after hiring someone with zero experience], that if we were not happy with the new addition to the team, that we knew where to find the door ...


Yes ... you can tell when a change is needed by a shift in attitudes.

The two that come to mind for me are:

a) the VP who as part of her introduction speech to the department was uncomfortable describing who she was & her past employment. If that wasn't enough of a concern, she ended her ten minute intro with " ... I have an open door to hear of ways to save money. I have a mandate to cut the budget by 15% - if there are no ideas, then that will mean layoffs."

She didn't end up needing the layoffs as the higher performers already knew what the competition was offering so they jumped ship.


b) the partner who for six years had gone out of his way to come up with ways to match those who wanted to travel and those who wanted to stay close at home with appropriate contracts suddenly changed his tune after the buyout to "traveling is part of the job, if you can't travel - look for another job".


Cheers


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I think part of the problem came from the 60's "youth rebellion". They tried to change the world, only to discover that the world works by its own rules and those rules can't be changed by just not liking them. 

Then this generation had kids and learned that their parents did things in a certain way for a reason...

Unfortunately, it's hard to parent by saying "do as I say, not as I did". Especially when you didn't really listen in the first place and don't really understand all the complex minutia that went into being a parent. 

Now we are seeing the third generation of our cultural experiment come to fruition...

Of course, there is much more to it, but I think this at least played a factor.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Speaking of *rules*, one of The Agenda's guests last night [22], mentioned that she's in her 5th year doing a Pol.Sci. degree; when asked how come it's 5 when a BA is typically 4 years, she said that when she first enrolled, she had no idea what she wanted to do, so she took general courses, and by the time she figured that her passion was Pol.Sci, that oppps, her GPA was too low to enter the program, and oppps, it would take her an extra year to complete the required courses for said degree, as she needed to improve that GPA + take the missing courses. 

This in itself is not so surprising, what annoyed me, was that she was blaming the university for the rules of needing a higher GPA and # of courses related to the degree. If she took more electives than were allowed [even before deciding her major, she ought to have known that any degree limits the # of electives, as otherwise, how can u call it a major, lol]; and if her grades were lower than required, how is that the uni's fault? :rolleyes2: The course guide explains clearly what's required for any degree, so what did she expect, that just because she took whatever courses she wanted while she was finding herself for x years, that the uni should have counted those towards her degree, even when not Major specific and below required grade?

She also blamed her indecision for having graduated at 18 [instead of 19 had grade 13 been available]. How many provinces in Canada had the grade 13? As far as I remember, only Ontario, and good thing they got rid of it. 

I don't think I'll watch any of the other episodes this week.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Just look at the statistics of consumer debt and the amazing pace of debt increase.
> 
> I don't think people want to take on debt. I think they more or less have to borrow, to make up the growing difference between what they earn and the cost of living. The way I see it, that chart of household debt-to-income is absolutely the picture of "tough times"


The rapid growth suggests it but I'd want more details before I'd make that evaluation.

Does the "consumer" debt include HELOCs being used to buy investments?
Does it include the LoC for a cottage?
How many are like my coworker who is shuffling debt between three credit cards as "life is throwing constant curve balls" at the same time as he has a reasonable salary and a large chunk of the debt is keeping his car on the road while he is ignoring an relatively easy (and significantly cheaper) bus route?

You mentioned earlier that the 80's & 90's you see as a boom time yet there were several I know who racked up multiple car loans at the same time they were "struggling" to make a far more affordable mortgage.

It is a barometer but without having dug into the details - it's not so clear based on what I'm hearing around work.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Spidey said:


> Actually, I was thinking more about the 50s and 60s. (Although I'm not old enough to have worked then.) I always got the feeling that my father, uncles or other adults only expected to put in a decent days work for a paycheck and it was almost unheard of to hear that generation talk of low job satisfaction. I think the seeds of work discontent started in the 70s and 80s.


You can add the early 90's as well ... the company braintrust were sold on "anyone who hasn't changed jobs in three years is deadwood" and "employees should invest in their own training which cuts the company budget". It worked well for about eight years until the employees put it into practice. After that, it was "why are so many leaving so quickly" and "what happened to company loyalty".




Spidey said:


> I am in a position where I am currently working side by side with many younger people and I do notice a difference in attitude and work-ethic. Very generally speaking, it seems that younger people will do what is required and that is it. They seem to lack the capacity or interest to notice a side-issue that crops up during the assignment that should be looked into or taken care of.


I've commonly heard over the last twenty years "If the manager lets him (or me) get away with it, it's not his (or my) responsibility." 

The too, I've heard a lot of "if I can't make $x or can't step into job Y, I'm not going to bother." Trouble is I now several of those with a similar attitude from the 80's & 90's (what has been described a boom era) who to this day aren't working at anything close to what their education is. Their peers who adjusted their expectations or their path (i.e. started something other than their dream job or moved to where they could get experience) have long since been promoted into or past that dream job.


Cheers


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> Speaking of *rules*, one of The Agenda's guests last night [22], mentioned that she's in her 5th year doing a Pol.Sci. degree; when asked how come it's 5 when a BA is typically 4 years, she said that when she first enrolled, she had no idea what she wanted to do, so she took general courses, and by the time she figured that her passion was Pol.Sci, that oppps, her GPA was too low to enter the program, and oppps, it would take her an extra year to complete the required courses for said degree, as she needed to improve that GPA + take the missing courses.
> 
> This in itself is not so surprising, what annoyed me, was that she was blaming the university for the rules of needing a higher GPA and # of courses related to the degree. If she took more electives than were allowed [even before deciding her major, she ought to have known that any degree limits the # of electives, as otherwise, how can u call it a major, lol]; and if her grades were lower than required, how is that the uni's fault? :rolleyes2: The course guide explains clearly what's required for any degree, so what did she expect, that just because she took whatever courses she wanted while she was finding herself for x years, that the uni should have counted those towards her degree, even when not Major specific and below required grade?
> 
> ...


I read her blog post and was thoroughly annoyed. It was very clear she hadn't chosen to major in logic. 

Quote from her post: 

_I was not ready to be left to my own devices in deciding my future with thousands of dollars on the line. I was not ready to have to manage courses, requirements, fees, prerequisites, exclusions, majors, minors etc. Essentially, at the age of 18, I was not ready to have a multi-million dollar industry institution, such as a university, put the onus on me to manage the course of my future based on their complex system._

Link: http://theagenda.tvo.org/blog/agenda-blogs/dude-wheres-my-future-saras-story

There are very real barriers to people getting university educations and some of the stories of underprepared but bright students attempting to navigate the post-secondary education system are heartbreaking (see, for example, this short article in the New York Times on the "scholarly poor" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/education/scholarly-poor-often-overlook-better-colleges.html?_r=0 ). But that post was *ridiculous.* She was determined to cast herself as a victim. How far is she going to get in life with that attitude?

Here is an amazing, long article on the barriers to PSE for "scholarly poor" young women in the U.S.: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/23/e...a-greater-role-in-success.html?pagewanted=all


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> She was determined to cast herself as a victim. How far is she going to get in life with that attitude?


There seems to be more of the population with the victim mentality than ever before. That is a dangerous trend.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> 1. deciding my future with *thousands of dollars on the line.*
> 2. I* was not ready to have to manage* courses, requirements, fees, prerequisites, exclusions, majors, minors etc. Essentially, at the age of 18.....
> 3. She was determined to *cast herself as a victim*. How far is she going to get in life with that attitude?


*1.* Ha, she didn't care about the money part in the least, as several times, with a BIG smile on her otherwise passionless voice & face expression, she mentioned how her parents were paying for *all* her expenses. 

*2.* Like U of T doesn't have counsellors? And how about the counsellors from her high school? If she felt so not ready and completely clueless [and I admit 18 is young], she should have maybe worked for a year or two, or volunteered, or whatever until she felt responsible/mature enough to handle adulthood & university. 

*3.* And unfortunately she is not alone. I would never hire a person with such an attitude [she's 22 now, not 18, but it seems she's still not matured].

Some think that just because they have a BA, that employers should be knocking at their doors or something.

Another student [24], doing a Masters, and still living at home, left a 'good gov. job' [with pension and all, that students her age would have loved to have {her words}], for better opportunities that she said she could not have without a Masters. If I recall, I think she mentioned her parents having paid for her undergrad, so if she worked 3 years, and lives at home, not sure why she needed to put herself in debt to do her MA. Anyway, at least she sounded ambitious & motivated.

Only 2 guests impressed me; even the prof. [not Stein], made me...:rolleyes2:


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Grad school can = pause button in life

(speaking as someone with two graduate degrees)


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Grad school can = pause button in life


:chuncky:

I do get a kick out of watching mature adults enter the work force for the first time in their lives some 10 years later than the rest of their childhood friends. I suppose that's why many of us stay in academia, if you are surrounded by grown children, then you don't stick out so much.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> ... *3.* And unfortunately she is not alone. I would never hire a person with such an attitude [she's 22 now, not 18, but it seems she's still not matured].
> 
> Some think that just because they have a BA, that employers should be knocking at their doors or something ...


Sad but true ... I can recall shaking my head many times as those well on their way to a BA stated " ... if it's not paying $60K or better, I'm not wasting my time at a job." The attitude seemed to be that what the BA was in & what work skills the individual had was not relevant to the starting salary.

The only one making this type of comment that I sort of understood this from was the guy working two jobs (one summer, year round) who was getting degrees & was making $60K between the two jobs.

The rest seemed to think they were owed a job they wanted at a salary they thought was appropriate regardless of the job market/location.


Cheers


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I have pretty little sympathy for people who aimlessly go to university. There are resources available to you both before and during your enrollment. I think parents are, in large part, encouraging this irresponsible behaviour by paying for their children's expenses. I can understand parents helping to finance, but students have to have a very real sense that they are financially responsible for their actions.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Going to university to be a professional student should be axed.
Anytime I read about people with multiple degree's at the expense of taxpayers I ask why are we paying for this.

One should be limited and know the first day this is it after that you pay what it really costs.
Its total BS that my taxes pay for professional students who don't really want to work with the big people or simple think it should be fine.

Once in the door they are welcome to spend what they want.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Grad school can = pause button in life
> 
> (speaking as someone with two graduate degrees)


LOL. :encouragement:



andrewf said:


> I have pretty little sympathy for people who aimlessly go to university. There are resources available to you both before and during your enrollment. I think parents are, in large part, encouraging this irresponsible behaviour by paying for their children's expenses. I can understand parents helping to finance, but students have to have a very real sense that they are financially responsible for their actions.


Agreed. The parents should have taken some of the time that they used to work and save $ for the education, to sit down with the child and discuss different degrees, education and employment possibilities. It is really hard at the age of 17 to know what you want to do with your future, considering what you have and have to been exposed to career wise by that age.

I have every intention of helping kids pay for their education, but not all of it. They need to learn the value of a dollar and the value of an education.

Having said that...I probably just jinxed my future children and my future education dollars. :hopelessness:


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> Going to university to be a professional student should be axed.
> Anytime I read about people with multiple degree's at the expense of taxpayers I ask why are we paying for this.
> 
> One should be limited and know the first day this is it after that you pay what it really costs.
> ...


This is why I like the reform that the UK has done (in principle at least). There, they substantially reduced taxpayer subsidies to universities, and allowed universities greater freedom to charge high tuition. Intsead, the government finances a significant portion of tuition and living costs, at an interest rate equal to inflation. Students then repay the loan by paying 9% of income above a certain threshold (approx 15k GBP). I believe students are also eligible to have some of their loans forgiven--not sure about criteria. This seems fairer and more transparent to students.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I think as you move up the hierarchy of needs your outlook transforms. Maybe parents are doing their children a disservice by providing too many resources and bumping them up this hierarchy too soon. I watched my grandfather work the same job for the same pay everyday until the day he died. As far as I know he never took a single day of vacation and he was perfectly content. I remember thinking I would be the same but my outlook is changing. If you are just trying to survive you are more than happy just to have the simple things, but you also won't see the big picture.

I remember wanting to work for my neighbour for $2/hour, but of course that would be child labour at that rate/age. Like any other country kid I was working for the family for free and figured $2/hour would buy a lot of nice clothes. From the age someone would hire me, I worked during all my vacations throughout school (including Christmas etc). I saved enough to pay for my own school but in doing so received a full scholarship anyways. Not only did I keep working on vacations, but I saw travel as a huge waste of money. As far as I know my grandfather was never a day away from home. I started earning a salary immediately out of school (22 thanks to skipping that grade 13 and cramming a 5 year degree into 4). I always bought all the gadgets and vehicles that I wanted but I saved for them first, and spent the money efficiently and minimized the cost by selling them as well. I avoided spending money on anything that wasn't an "asset".

But slowly things change. I don't see the point of working during vacation for min wage anymore. I certainly wouldn't bike uphill before dawn to milk some cows for an extra $5. Since my priorities are covered, I will spend as much as I want on experiences, travel and passions. I remember thinking I would work as long as I could, but now I don't see the point of working beyond 40 if that. I also look at everything with a much bigger picture in mind than just me, my family etc. I think everyone should try to do what they love, but not put the cart before the horse.

These kids seem to have jumped to the top of the triangle without even being self sufficient. I don't see anything wrong with having the desire to move on to a better job though. As soon as you settle with what you have it's harder to change later. If I look at a resume of someone who keeps moving forward without stopping it's much different than someone who did the same job for x years. I've read a few interesting articles that the younger generation have no loyalty to employers that people inherently had before. This is because they grew up witnessing that employers have no loyalty to them...


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