# Snowbirding the world excluding Florida



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Florida can be described in one word. Yawn.

There is an entire world out there that snowbirds can explore so why don't more do so? I understand Florida is cheap and everything is well within the average Canadian's comfort zone but where have you tried snowbirding (or wish to) that takes you a bit outside of your comfort zone and doesn't follow the herd to Florida?

*"So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."* Author unknown.

Here are a few of my own choices from over the years.

Cape Verde Islands, any Greek island, Malta, British Virgin Islands, Seychelles, Maldives, Dalmatian Islands, Corsica. As you can see, I'm an island lover when it comes to choosing warm weather winter destinations. There are countless places to choose from, all far more interesting that (yawn) Florida.

Take the first on my list for example. Still in the early stages of tourism development, there is a chance to get ahead of the curve before it becomes yet another over-developed winter sun destination. Here is a fairly comprehensive description to give you an idea of what you could expect to find.
https://paulinaontheroad.com/where-to-stay-in-cape-verde-vacation-resort/

You could expect to pay roughly $2k return per person from Toronto to Praia for example. Other costs are relatively low, you can see specific numbers here:
http://hikersbay.com/prices/capeverde?lang=en#hotel-prices

So why not forget (yawn) Florida and consider broadening your horizons next winter.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

After slagging the travel choices of others, a new thread about the world according to LTA. 

Yawn


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> After slagging the travel choices of others, a new thread about the world according to LTA.
> 
> Yawn


Florida isn't a 'travel' choice. Prairie Guy has just explained on the 'work another 5 years' thread, their honest reasoning. They aren't interested in travel, just escaping to warmer weather for a month or two to live much the same as they do at home. That's a reasonable explanation, not everyone is interested in travel and what it brings. Florida simply brings 'home' to warmer weather. 

I am addressing those who DO have an interest in travel and what it brings.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

And for those bored with Florida give Texas a try! 

Their hill country area is a great place to visit ...


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Since retiring we have spent every winter outside of the country. It has been five years in SE Asia-always Thailand for a month, plus a mix of Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, and Australia/NZ. Costa Rica/Panama for each of two years with a little South America tossed in on the last one. We travel about vs spending all of our time in one spot in each of those countries.

Nothing against the US destinations. We have spent a fair amount of time in Florida and California, plus time touring for second homes in Texas and Az. Other destinations are higher on our list at the moment. No doubt we will eventually end up spending the winter in one place. At the moment, that place will most likely be Mexico for a variety of reasons.

But, travel to some of these these locations can be tiring. Not just the flight times but also the change of time zones. I expect that we will eventually give up the 20 hour two or three segment flights in favour of a quick hop down to Puerto Vallarta.

People have different reasons, financial and otherwise, for traveling where they do. We could care less where someone else chooses as a winter destination or a vacation destination and do not understand why someone would criticize another person's choice of destination.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Florida isn't a 'travel' choice. Prairie Guy has just explained on the 'work another 5 years' thread, their honest reasoning. They aren't interested in travel, just escaping to warmer weather for a month or two to live much the same as they do at home. That's a reasonable explanation, not everyone is interested in travel and what it brings. Florida simply brings 'home' to warmer weather.
> I am addressing those who DO have an interest in travel and what it brings.


Sorry, so this is a travel thread then, not a snowbirding excluding Florida thread? 

Traveling/snowbirding to Florida where there are Everglades parks, cayes, and ocean beaches seems a sight better than a mobile home/trailer park stuck in the California desert. Yawn.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

oh...snow"birding"....I thought it said snow"boarding".......nevermind.....yawn...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Australia is a very nice country with direct flights from Canada and first world conditions that are better/cleaner/safer than Canada. I just returned from a week at a beach side apartment that cost me $120/night after all fees and the price would obviously drop if I made a longer term rental arrangement.

The flight out of Vancouver was $1300 round trip.



ian said:


> Since retiring we have spent every winter outside of the country. It has been five years in SE Asia-always Thailand for a month, plus a mix of Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, and Australia/NZ. Costa Rica/Panama for each of two years with a little South America tossed in on the last one. We travel about vs spending all of our time in one spot in each of those countries.


A question for you ian, among your list of countries, do you think a solo traveler would be OK going to those? I've never been, but I've consistently heard great reviews for Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Costa Rica. I just can't figure out whether it would be fine to travel alone there.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I see no issue with solo travel in these countries. I suspect that it might be a little different for solo female in parts of Malaysia. We would not go back to the Philippines. Travel in Thailand, and Vietnam for that matter, is so easy. We do mostly spontaneous travel. Not unusual for us to only have a few days in advance booked/arranged.

We typically do one ways when we are going to include Australia. Fly into Bangkok. Tour. Then fly to Gold Coast, Australia from either Thailand (Krabi) or Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur). We come home through Sydey to fly Jetstar to Honolulu for a few days to break up the trip. Airfare from Krabi, Thailand to Gold Coast was $175 Cad each (Scoot, the budget arm of SIngapore Airlines I believe). Flight from Sydney to HNL was $375 each but included charges for upgrading our carry on from 7KG to 10KG, one meal, entertainment, and seat selection. Jetstar is the budget arm of Qantas. Both of our Jetstar flights have been code shares with Qantas. We came home from HNL on points.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That's inspiring stuff ian, thanks. I hope we can continue to compare notes going forward.

By the way, the long flights to southeast Asia / AU / NZ are not as bad as people might think. I just returned from a 14 hour flight with Air Canada. Both going there and back was surprisingly comfortable. Service was good. Two very nice meals, and 1 good snack. Excellent TV entertainment with a huge number of movies.

The 14 hours goes by much faster than you might think. Take off and descent is over 1 hour. Meal and drink services take up 3 hours. Watch a couple movies and a few shows, that's 5-6 hours. A few cat naps for a couple hours. There's your entire 14 hours, really not too difficult.

And that's AC. I've had even better flights with Air New Zealand, and I've heard wonderful things about the Asian carriers.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Out of five flights to Bangkok (with various segments on United, ANA, Delta, AC, and Korea) in economy, we found that our last flights SEA-ICH-BKK on Korean had the best seats and by far the best service of any that we have flown on. We used up our Delta Skymiles points for this one.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

cainvest said:


> And for those bored with Florida give Texas a try!
> 
> Their hill country area is a great place to visit ...


And they do know how to BBQ & party! I love that place...Austin, South Padre,Amarillo.

At any rate I enjoy deep sea fishing in the Florida Keys, back country camping in the Everglades,kicking back & vegetating in Panama City. Not for everyone...some people just gotta go see the pyramids...yawn.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> And they do know how to BBQ & party! I love that place...Austin, South Padre,Amarillo.


For sure, the food and people down there are great!

One year we were passing through a small town and stopped at a biker bar/restaurant on xmas day to just grab a drink on our way back to Kerville to meet up with friends. Turned out they were closed but they invited us in to sit down with their entire family for xmas dinner, totally awesome! Even though we told them we're meeting friends for dinner they fed us and gave us huge leftover plates to take back to the hotel for tomorrow. I've never been so stuffed in my life lol.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Lol... I actually thought it did say snowboarding outside of Florida, and thought ‘I certainly hope so’. I will take my snowboarding in the Rockies any time over any of the places so far listed. :tongue:

However, I just don’t understand the big deal in trying to point out the other places to travel. It’s such a personal thing. I plan to go back to asia, I loved South America, in fact Colombia was one of my favourite places to go, I preferred it over Central America, I didn’t mind Europe, but it was more meh to me, not my personal idea of retirement. I dislike islands in general but will go for the heck of it. My goal in retirement will be to hit every continent, but hopefully have already done that by then. 

Travel is such a personal thing, I don’t see the point in constantly making comments that one place is better than another. Doesn’t it really just depend on the person.

Thought I recommend if one hasn’t been to Colombia, to make a trip. I loved it compared to Panama, and I enjoyed Panama.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

ian said:


> We would not go back to the Philippines.


I have never been to Asia and have other places that I want to see first. Southeast Asia has been a very popular place to visit in recent years akin to backpacking through Europe in the 90s. I have no desire to go to China (too much pollution and population density) I would consider other parts of Asia, Vietnam, Korea, Japan. I was curious what you did not like about the Philippines. Care to elaborate? Curious to hear about the many interesting destinations others have been.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Unlike Thailand or Vietnam, there were times that for some reason we did not feel very safe in the Philippines. We planned time there the winter before last. We have traveled independently for years. We trust our guts.

We are very spontaneous travelers. Often we only book a few days in advance once we get to a country/destination. We are used to having excellent internet (we only travel with ipads) and good transportation options. They don't have to be fancy options, air, ferry, bus, minibus, longboat are all acceptable. We just need there to be options and availability plus we need to feel safe. We did not find either to be the case int he Philippines. The exact opposite in fact. We planned to stay for several weeks. After a week, we flew back to Thailand for two weeks and changed our flight home from Manila to Bangkok. This was the first time in years of travel that we have done something like this. No doubt others may have a completely different opinion but for us it was a no go. 

We find the people in Thailand and Vietnam so welcoming and so gracious. We did not find this in the Philippines. Quite the opposite. Service was poor, sometimes downright surly. Bottom line was that compared to other destinations we found it much more difficult to travel in the Philippines. Last summer we talked about not going somewhere different this past winter. Yet, when the fall came we looked at each other and agreed on Thailand for a start. Why, because it is so easy, the beaches are not crowded (where we go) and the local food is wonderful.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Everything comes at a price including the good and the bad of each country where we might choose to snowbird in winter or simply visit for a period of time at any time of year. 

We may find a country is relatively cheap to visit but has a high crime rate or the food simply isn't to our liking for example. Over the years, I have developed my own set of criteria that I look at. For example, I insist on 'flush toilets'. I use flush toilets as a sample of what kind of infrastructure you can expect to find in a country and I refer to them in terms of what the locals have to deal with, not what you will find in a Hilton hotel in that country. Flush toilets to me is just a way of saying, good transportation, good healthcare if needed, good internet access (no brown outs), etc. 

Another criteria I use is 'bars on windows'. They are sometimes more decorative (weird) than about security in some countries but generally speaking, they do speak to what to expect in terms of crime and therefore your ability to take a stroll after the sun goes down. For example, in S. Africa, not only are bars on the windows the norm but so are high fences with barbed wire on top and gates that are locked at night. So they have nice weather in winter but do you really want to have to lock yourself in at night to that degree?

The more developed a country is in terms of what most will find to be acceptable, the more likely it is to have a higher cost of living. That brings me to expectations re what is acceptable. You cannot expect first world infrastructure at third world prices, it just doesn't work that way. As I get older, my tolerance level for many things has decreased. I once would have thought nothing of riding in a 'chicken bus' in S. America, now it is just not acceptable at all. I do think some people have difficulty with balancing acceptable with tolerable. They want a flush toilet but only want to pay for an outhouse and it just doesn't work that way.

As a result, I now find I want to visit for short or long term, only countries that tend to be on the high side of what it costs to visit. My expectations and what I find acceptable are high, so the cost must be correspondingly high.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Lol... I actually thought it did say snowboarding outside of Florida, and thought ‘I certainly hope so’. I will take my snowboarding in the Rockies any time over any of the places so far listed. :tongue:
> 
> However, I just don’t understand the big deal in trying to point out the other places to travel. It’s such a personal thing.
> 
> Travel is such a personal thing, I don’t see the point in constantly making comments that one place is better than another. Doesn’t it really just depend on the person.


Plugging Along, how will you know if you will 'take your snowboarding in the Rockies' over other places if you have not tried the other places? For example, how many of the longest runs listed on the following link have you tried?
https://blog.liftopia.com/worlds-longest-ski-runs/

Since you say Europe was 'meh to me', should we take it you tried snowboading in the areas in the link and found them lacking in some way? You don't think you could enjoy spending a couple of winter months in any of the areas mentioned in Europe? Where in N. America is it that you think you would prefer for a couple of winter months and why?

Travel is a personal thing and we all have different interests, but if one of your interests is snowboarding, then why would you not want to try to find YOUR best place to do that by visiting various places outside of N. America to compare? You'll find only 1 in your 'Rockies' on the following list (Whistler is not in the Rockies). at the bottom.
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/worlds-biggest-ski-areas/index.html

How many have you visited on that list?


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

If you are staying in SOBE, Miami, Shark Alley in Everglades National Park is only a short drive out Hwy 41. You can walk, rent a bike or take a tram  around the loop and out to the observation tower. Lot's of wildlife to see.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Plugging Along, how will you know if you will 'take your snowboarding in the Rockies' over other places if you have not tried the other places? For example, how many of the longest runs listed on the following link have you tried?
> https://blog.liftopia.com/worlds-longest-ski-runs/
> 
> Since you say Europe was 'meh to me', should we take it you tried snowboading in the areas in the link and found them lacking in some way? You don't think you could enjoy spending a couple of winter months in any of the areas mentioned in Europe? Where in N. America is it that you think you would prefer for a couple of winter months and why?
> ...


Not sure why you'd think those ski lists would have any bearing on where you'd want to ski/snowboard.

The biggest factors for me would be cost and minimal travel time, yup ... go to the Rockies!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Here are a few of my own choices from over the years.
> 
> *Cape Verde Islands, any Greek island, Malta, British Virgin Islands, Seychelles, Maldives, Dalmatian Islands, Corsica. As you can see, I'm an island lover when it comes to choosing warm weather winter destinations. There are countless places to choose from, all far more interesting that (yawn) Florida.*
> 
> .





Plugging Along said:


> Lol... I actually thought it did say snowboarding outside of Florida, and thought ‘I certainly hope so’. I will take my snowboarding in the Rockies any time *over any of the places so far listed*. :tongue:
> 
> .


I think you missed the subtlety and the point to my post. None of the places you listed were suitable for boarding, which is what I thought the title read. My misread I understand, but apparently missed to humor. That's fine.

Can anyone really argue that snowboarding in the Rockies isn't better than snowboarding in : Cape Verde Islands, any Greek island, Malta, British Virgin Islands, Seychelles, Maldives, Dalmatian Islands, Corsica. As you can see, I'm an island lover when it comes to choosing warm weather winter destinations. There are countless places to choose from, all far more interesting that (yawn) Florida.

I can say I have not snowboarder in any of the above places, listed, but I have boarded in spring conditions, and it can really suck . I don't have to bring my stuff to any of the islands to see it would be a bad idea.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Plugging Along, how will you know if you will 'take your snowboarding in the Rockies' over other places if you have not tried the other places? For example, how many of the longest runs listed on the following link have you tried?
> https://blog.liftopia.com/worlds-longest-ski-runs/
> 
> Since you say Europe was 'meh to me', should we take it you tried snowboading in the areas in the link and found them lacking in some way? You don't think you could enjoy spending a couple of winter months in any of the areas mentioned in Europe? Where in N. America is it that you think you would prefer for a couple of winter months and why?
> ...


So here's how I KNOW I prefer the Rockies over many of the destination listed even though I have not gone to all of them: This is based on what bring ME enjoyment for a ski/board experience
- Longest does not mean best. I have been on long runs, actually even on the Last Spike. It was an easy run, awful for snowboarding, covered with the beginners who run my kids and I over. There is no difficulty in the terrain. This is often the case with the longest run, as it's is the flattest. A snowboarders nightmare. As a skier, it's just boring avoiding the little pylons (fallen skiers) 
- Many of those hills you need to traverse. I HATE traversing with a passion, even skis. I hate it even more than I hate hiking. I hate hiking so much I told my spouse when were dating if he wanted to become a hiker, we should call our relationship and move on. I know myself enough, that I hate hiking and traversing, that going to some of the places mentioned will not bring me any enjoyment
- I have no desire to go into dangerous places or out of zone avalanche areas. I just want to hope on a chair or lift or two and start skiing down. 
- Heli-skiing. I don't mind heli-skiing, I have only done it once, but will admit, I am not good enough to really reap the enjoyment out of it. I am not going to go on a vacation where I will spend time heli-skiing, when I have it available much closer. 
- Distance to a hill. I am done bringing my equipment on a plane and packing my winter gear with helmets, googles, pants, etc. I am fair weather skier/boarder. I have tried bringing my stuff on the plane, it was a pain. I have tried renting equipment at the hill, I didn't like the clothing, I hate helmets that are worn by other (It's a personal thing). I have really weird fitting feet and calves so my boots are custom. I have to say it just wasn't worth it. True, I have only taken a plane into the ski hills in the US, and not Europe, but I didn't enjoy the packing experience for the US, I can't imagine the packing to be better in Europe. I have done bus trips and they were fine, so I realized that I hate the packing experience. If I was maybe good enough to be a world skier or boarder, I may think differently. 

Though I do believe that Italy, France, Switzerland will have wonderful boarding experiences. When I choose to go back there, I would much rather take the time to travel and explore the none mountain activities. 



> Since you say Europe was 'meh to me', should we take it you tried snowboading in the areas in the link and found them lacking in some way? You don't think you could enjoy spending a couple of winter months in any of the areas mentioned in Europe? *Where in N. America is it that you think you would prefer for a couple of winter months and why*?


My comments were that Europe was a nice place to visit, but 'meh' in terms of me having to go back. I don't see the need to go to Europe in the winter, as I have the Rocky mountains here. I can't think of any place that I would want to go away for every winter for retirement. There are lots of places I would go in retirement. I already answered that question. 



> However, I just don’t understand the big deal in trying to point out the other places to travel. It’s such a personal thing. I plan to go back to asia, I loved South America, in fact Colombia was one of my favourite places to go, I preferred it over Central America, I didn’t mind Europe, but it was more meh to me, not my personal idea of retirement. I dislike islands in general but will go for the heck of it. My goal in retirement will be to hit every continent, but hopefully have already done that by then.


In North America, I can't see many places I would want to spend an extended period of time, but who knows. When I am retired, I am sure I will visit many places in the US. I expect will spend time more time where I have family. 

As you can see my idea of great travel is probably really different than yours.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Not sure why you'd think those ski lists would have any bearing on where you'd want to ski/snowboard.
> 
> The biggest factors for me would be cost and minimal travel time, yup ... go to the Rockies!


You said this so much more succinctly than me. Yep, I have a place in BC so I can ski there, and on the AB side.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> You said this so much more succinctly than me. Yep, I have a place in BC so I can ski there, and on the AB side.


That area has everything one could need, I could spend decades skiing there and not get bored ... oh, wait I have! 
Really the banff area (and there are many more in BC) is just great, I loved it. And as an added bonus, free health insurance!


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Theres a reason Alberta & BC are inundated with Asian & Euro tourists eager to fly across the world to our back yard. It's better than where they live. Oh, and LTR you should actually participate in winter sports before offering comment. Longest run...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Not sure why you'd think those ski lists would have any bearing on where you'd want to ski/snowboard.
> 
> The biggest factors for me would be cost and minimal travel time, yup ... go to the Rockies!


So cost and travel time trump quality in other words cainvest. Really? You prefer to settle for second best all the time? Or you think all ski/snowboarding runs are created equal and are found in equal scenery, equal cuisine, etc. etc. for all the other things involved. Or you think for snowboarding, the Rockies are the world's best? 

I am not into skiing but am into hiking which can be compared quite easily. I can hike in Algonquin Park and enjoy all that it has to offer the hiker. I can hike in the deserts of the US Southwest which have different things to offer. I can hike in the Alps in Europe which is different again. What I cannot do is simply hike in Algonquin and then say, 'it's the cheapest and the least travel time, so therefore I will take it over all others.'

No one can say they will take a place over all others UNLESS they have tried the others. You can say you're happy with what you've got and aren't interested in trying others at all but you cannot say you will take one thing OVER others unless you have experienced others. You can't say you prefer apples to oranges if you've only eaten apples and never eaten an orange.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Profound profundity.
For those inclined to Snowboard in Florida, we have Winter Park, FL. 
You can't say you don't like oranges until you've tried one! range:


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Profound profundity.
> For those inclined to Snowboard in Florida, we have Winter Park, FL.
> You can't say you don't like oranges until you've tried one! range:


Lol... I have actually tried a few. They were not the same. I would still like to say I prefer the Rocky mountains over that indoor simulator. However, I have not been on a simulator in Florida. So technically, I cannot say that I would for sure know if I would like the one in Florida better than the Rocky mountains, as the simulator in Florida may be different than a simulator in California, or even in an amusement park, which they were different too. 

No one can say they can take the real skiing unless they have tried over others option. It may not be good enough that you have tried one or two or even three unless you have experienced all simulators. How can I really know if I really like skiing in the Rockys when I haven't experienced ever simulator around. 

I can only say that I am happy over my Rocky mountains and other hills but cannot say I have tried a simulator in Florida. Though it's less likely you will wipe out and yard sale using a simulator.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> So cost and travel time trump quality in other words cainvest. Really? You prefer to settle for second best all the time? Or you think all ski/snowboarding runs are created equal and are found in equal scenery, equal cuisine, etc. etc. for all the other things involved. Or you think for snowboarding, the Rockies are the world's best?
> 
> I am not into skiing but am into hiking which can be compared quite easily. I can hike in Algonquin Park and enjoy all that it has to offer the hiker. I can hike in the deserts of the US Southwest which have different things to offer. I can hike in the Alps in Europe which is different again. What I cannot do is simply hike in Algonquin and then say, 'it's the cheapest and the least travel time, so therefore I will take it over all others.'
> 
> No one can say they will take a place over all others UNLESS they have tried the others. You can say you're happy with what you've got and aren't interested in trying others at all but you cannot say you will take one thing OVER others unless you have experienced others. You can't say you prefer apples to oranges if you've only eaten apples and never eaten an orange.


I didn't say the quality wasn't there, it is and I don't know why you'd think it wasn't ... maybe because it wasn't on the lists you linked?

If a destination fits my needs for what I'm doing why would I spend more to go somewhere more expensive and troublesome to do the basically the same thing ... that just makes no sense to me. I really enjoyed skiing there and not once did I ever think "I wonder if the Alps would be better?" When I outgrew skiing in Manitoba (not difficult BTW) I started going to the Rockies for more of a challenge. Will my skills ever exceed the Rockies ... not a chance, so the challenge will always remain for me, it has everything *I need*.

And if I'm happy doing what you or someone else considers 2nd or even 457th best, what's it matter on how someone ranks it, I'm happy there!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> Though it's less likely you will wipe out and yard sale using a simulator.


lmao .. been I while since I've heard "yard sale", that brings back memories!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It is beyond my comprehension why someone would critique another person's choice of vacation-winter or otherwise. Or what they spend on their vacation or what their winter priorities are. Seems almost like criticizing someone because they like Italian food or romantic movies. Absolutely no point to it.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

ian said:


> It is beyond my comprehension why someone would critique another person's choice of vacation-winter or otherwise. Or what they spend on their vacation or what their winter priorities are. Seems almost like criticizing someone because they like Italian food or romantic movies. Absolutely no point to it.


I love eye-talian food!
some of the best i've ever had have been in florida..... Carrabba's chain, and. little independent joint in ft. lauderdale...it was that big, i couldntfinish it!
ohyeah... the meals ive had in rome are notto be sneezed at either.. but then..in roma ..ya gotta take in all that 'culture' along with it ...ugh! ...bon appetito!


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I keep forgetting that I am dealing primarily with plebians here.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I keep forgetting that I am dealing primarily with plebians here.


:stupid: Well, you certainly don't let us forget that we are dealing with a patrician.
BTW, how did that work out for you in Rome?


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