# Looking at apartments in Whistler



## vi123 (Oct 29, 2015)

Does anyone here own a condo in Whistler? We're looking at buying a 2-bed place (in Phase I) to use for a few weeks each Winter and Summer, and rent out for the remainder of the year.

Couple of reasons why it might be a decent investment in terms of capital appreciation:
1. The lack of snow in some ski resorts.
2. Americans taking advantage of the weak loonie.
3. Whistler apartments are down 17% over the last 10 years, according to REBGV. So definitely not in bubble territory like other areas.

From everything I've read though, we are likely to be cashflow-negative unless we put down a 50%+ downpayment. We're OK with some negative cashflow as we'd like to have our own place, but we would like to know how much we would be paying for the privilege. 

Has anyone run the numbers on a property like this?


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Whenever I've run the numbers on a vacation rental, they've looked awful at best and tend to go downhill from there pretty quickly. In a downturn economy their "value" drops to almost nothing as there are no buyers at any price. The travel plans for personal usage tends to be a lot less than expected, people generally want to rent at the same times as you want to use, and it's just one "party" away from costly repairs.

It's usually a mistake to mix business and personal interests.

Of course, that's just my opinion.


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## vi123 (Oct 29, 2015)

Thanks. We're looking at this as more of a lifestyle investment. We don't expect much of a return on it (if any). Just getting kinda bored of renting different places in Whistler, and it would be nice to have some storage to keep our stuff up there.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

By trying to combine it with a financial "investment" you are asking for trouble. If you want a vacation home, buy a vacation home, you'll take a "hit" financially, but your lifestyle investment will be much better.


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## vi123 (Oct 29, 2015)

Just a Guy said:


> By trying to combine it with a financial "investment" you are asking for trouble. If you want a vacation home, buy a vacation home, you'll take a "hit" financially, but your lifestyle investment will be much better.


Are you familiar with Phase 1 and Phase 2 properties in Whistler? If you buy a condo in Whistler Village, you basically have to rent it out unless you live there full time. So owning a pure vacation home is not actually an option.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm saying if you want a vacation property, buy a vacation property outright (no time-share scam either), not an "investment"/vacation property. If the option for full ownership isn't available, don't buy it. The only people who will usually make money from this type of "investment" is the property management and/or the developer.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Just a Guy said:


> I'm saying if you want a vacation property, buy a vacation property outright (no time-share scam either), not an "investment"/vacation property. If the option for full ownership isn't available, don't buy it. The only people who will usually make money from this type of "investment" is the property management and/or the developer.


Agreed. If you are dead set on buying, then buy it as a vacation home and then let your friends and family use it. Maybe they can cover some of the fees in an informal arrangement. Obviously only lend it out to people who you trust and who are tidier than you. They would be far more likely to take care of it for you than some VRBO customer or equivalent. You still won't break even. Not even close. If you're willing to pay somewhere around 500-1000$ a month for the privilege of saying you have a vacation property in whistler, and that is worth it to you, then knock your socks off.
You'll never use it as much as you thought you would. Priorities change, kids develop other pursuits, life gets in the way.

Renting whenever you need to is a far better option. With the money you saved by not buying, you can rent some baller places and still be ahead of the game. Is there not a storage locker warehouse somewhere in whistler where you can rent a small locker to store your items?


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

nobleea;930394Renting whenever you need to is a far better option. With the money you saved by not buying said:


> +1
> 
> Take it from someone who tried it. I owned a condo in Kelowna for about 5 years with that same thinking and it was a disaster. The window for renting it there is maybe 2 months long and thats exactly the time when I want to use it so your rental income is cut from that. In the meantime, you want to cover costs the rest of the year so you get a monthly renter in and since good ones are hard to find, you cant kick them out every summer.
> 
> Now my family just gets hotels for those few weeks and forget about the hassle and debt of another property. WAY BETTER


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## Charlie (May 20, 2011)

We looked into it and decided not to. I know a couple who do it, and one guy who makes a good income renting out Whistler condos. Others who tried it and gave it up -- either sold their place, or just made it a personal home:

Costs are very high. Special assessments/maintenance/etc. Much much higher than I expected. Many places built in the mid/late 80s are due for major repairs. For us, this was the kicker. Easier and cheaper for us to rent.

That said -- demand is high, as are rates. If you have the aptitude to rent it out (and it is a lot of work) then it is much more doable than in many vacation places. The returns were too low for us to offset the risk and hassle.


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## vi123 (Oct 29, 2015)

Good points everyone, thanks. 

The concern about special assessments is something that I have definitely been worried about. We would need to be careful about which building to buy into. Most of the buildings with listings seem to have been built in the mid 90s.

We have certainly considered just continuing to rent. I took a look at airbnb this afternoon and you can rent some insane places for 300 per night.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

The demographics are negative for the ski industry until aprox 2022.

Most ski areas have turned away from skiing & focus on real estae


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

From what I remember reading about whistler, it's never been the investment it was billed at as it was being developed for the olympics. Demand has never approached expectations. There is a slideshow out there, which I believe I saw on Facebook, which shows what happened to former Olympic developments (a bunch are ruins or ghost towns). I remember thinking whistler, while not ever getting that bad, may one day make a similar list.

I think it's a beautiful area, but the prices people wanted were so out of line with reality and the promises made about future demand were based on dreams not actual numbers, that people once again got screwed by marketing. I've yet to see anything that has changed about the area, but I admit I don't follow it closely. I'm not a fan of recreation property as an investment period.


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## vi123 (Oct 29, 2015)

Just a Guy said:


> From what I remember reading about whistler, it's never been the investment it was billed at as it was being developed for the olympics. Demand has never approached expectations. There is a slideshow out there, which I believe I saw on Facebook, which shows what happened to former Olympic developments (a bunch are ruins or ghost towns). I remember thinking whistler, while not ever getting that bad, may one day make a similar list.
> 
> I think it's a beautiful area, but the prices people wanted were so out of line with reality and the promises made about future demand were based on dreams not actual numbers, that people once again got screwed by marketing. I've yet to see anything that has changed about the area, but I admit I don't follow it closely. I'm not a fan of recreation property as an investment period.


The condo hotel investments got absolutely crushed a few years back. But they were just a great deal for the hotels - they got to sell the assets and still make good money on them. They are still very cheap and likely to stay that way.

As far as I can see, regular condos are selling for about the same as they were in 2006.

I actually got hold of some real rental numbers for a 2-bed unit that sold recently. After setting aside 50 days per year for personal use (including the Christmas period), the cap rate looks like 2.3%. That's allowing for strata fees, property tax, insurance, $2k maintenance per year, etc etc. I think we could improve the revenue numbers with some minor renos and better management.

By any regular benchmark that's a pretty sad return (although it beats most of Westside Vancouver). However, once you factor in the 15% personal use it looks a lot more attractive.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

So, prices remained stable during one of the biggest run ups in real estate prices ever...

Have you looked at the selling prices, or just the listing prices when doing your research? People can ask whatever they like, in real estate the only thing that matters is what the buyer will pay. With the downturn in the economy, I'd bet the rate of sales and the prices will be way down if not stagnant. Same goes for the rental pool.


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## vi123 (Oct 29, 2015)

Just a Guy said:


> So, prices remained stable during one of the biggest run ups in real estate prices ever...
> 
> Have you looked at the selling prices, or just the listing prices when doing your research? People can ask whatever they like, in real estate the only thing that matters is what the buyer will pay. With the downturn in the economy, I'd bet the rate of sales and the prices will be way down if not stagnant. Same goes for the rental pool.


We looked at sale prices, obviously. Whistler has actually had a very strong 2 years after getting very oversold back around 2011-2012. I think it overshot to the downside after the pre-Olympics speculation ended and thanks to the strong loonie. 

Visitor numbers are also very strong (+10% YoY).


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Well, it sounds like you've sold yourself on it, you'll note you're the only one on this thread to do so...maybe you've stumbled on a contra move in real estate.


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## vi123 (Oct 29, 2015)

Just a Guy said:


> Well, it sounds like you've sold yourself on it, you'll note you're the only one on this thread to do so...maybe you've stumbled on a contra move in real estate.


Take a look again at my original post. I said that we knew the returns were likely to be poor, but that we would get plenty of personal use from it, and that we were OK with that. I was asking if anyone had run the numbers themselves.

I think you've been answering the question that you yourself wanted to answer. You're not a fan of vacation homes, and that's absolutely fine. But I wasn't actually asking for anyone to 'sell me on it'.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Or, maybe we (all the posters) were trying to warn you that there are a lot more issues out there than you'll see from just doing the numbers. Most of us got our knowledge from experience. Of course, one of the things I've also learned is most people have to learn things for themselves, and the price of a good education is usually expensive.

I've also learned however that I'm not always right, and there are always exceptions. Good luck.


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## vi123 (Oct 29, 2015)

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate all the feedback. I probably should have been clearer that we're looking at this primarily as a lifestyle choice.

Airbnb is actually something that has completely changed the landscape with respect to vacation homes. It means that you can easily block off your preferred dates, and control exactly who uses your property. Its far cheaper than using a property management company, although you do need to have some kind of presence locally for checkin/checkout etc. Clients pay the cost of the cleaner. It also makes it easier to take advantage of last minute cancellations or vacancies to use the property yourself. I think that's the route we're going to choose.


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