# Admit it. You don't like work. The solution. Plan to Retire Early



## avrex

*Admit it. Work isn't fun. The solution. Plan to Retire Early*

I've seen work engagement type surveys, where the results indicate that many people are not happy.

Something like 30% of people are actively engaged / interested in their current job. 
The other 70%.... are not engaged. The reason they work is purely to earn a salary, in order to live.

I would fall into the latter camp.
I have lots of interests....., i.e. things I'd rather be doing with my time.
However, these 'interests' wouldn't pay a salary.
Therefore I must continue to work (at something that doesn't interest me).

The long-term solution is, plan to retire early:
- Spend less than you earn. In fact, save aggressively.
- Pursue your interests/hobbies on the weekends. Be happy/thankful. At least you have those time periods of pure joy. 
- Be Patient. Saving money takes time. On the other hand, it will happen quicker than you think. Compounding money is an amazing thing.
- Finally, when you have enough money for financial independence..... pull the plug. Walk away. You deserve your freedom.
Now you'll have 7 days a week to pursue all of your interests/hobbies.

I don't like to constantly complain about work. The job is 'ok' at times. It pays a fair salary for what I do. I mean, my problem is just a first-world problem. Actively complaining about it will just make you more miserable and isn't healthy. 

However, every once in awhile, it's nice to read about others that have the same attitude/feelings that I have about cubicle life and putting up with the lunacy of bureaucratic corporate regimes and processes.

*1. * I recently stumbled across the blog http://livingafi.com/.

The author is a 37 year-old office worker who is set to retire on April 10th, 2015.
Reading his posts, it appears that he is very successful at his job. The problem is ...... *he hates his work.*

Check his latest post, The Litany of Office Hate.

It made me smile, as I could relate to a lot of what he was saying. Maybe you can relate too. Enjoy the read.

*2.* Mr. Money Mustache  

I enjoy reading Mr. Money Mustache and it's forum community of early retirees. 
He's also a proponent of getting out of the rat race early and enjoying a sensible life.
Here's an interview article with the Globe and Mail. How to retire at age 30 (and stay retired) 

Does anybody else want to *retire early* (i.e. before the standard age of 65) because they would rather be pursuing other activities/interests?


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## cainvest

Just a thought, and of course you can still retire early BUT ... is there a job you'd like to do, maybe even a part-time one?
I mention this as it might even help the early retirement if you're able to go part-time a little earlier than not working at all.


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## none

I love my job - I had so much fun today! I almost wish it wasn't a long weekend


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## ashin1

I don't mind my line of work, im very fortunate to be in the position i am today, but i pursue early retire for the sole fact of having the option to work when i want to work. I hate to admit it but i actually do have great days of work where i derive happiness from helping others. i could see myself working casually(i use the term lightly hehe ). however i also have days i want to ripe everything single strand of hair outta my head....everything in moderation lol


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## Letran

Wow, that must be the most NEGATIVE blog I have ever wasted my time reading.

A little venting is ok, but my, my, that is going postal.

Life is too short, Love what you do, or do what you love. 

Seriously, I try to find the good in everything, and everyone (sometimes harder than others) 

But I seriously wonder why other people to CHOOSE look for the bad, assume the worst. I cannot live a life that miserable.

Yes, I know life and people are not perfect otherwise we all be complaining how boring it is.

Maybe it is just the anonymity of internet, buy just waaaaay much NEGATIVITY.

Again, Life is too short, you don't like something, help change it if not YOU just become part of the problem. 

Quitting doesn't help, because YOU are still YOU after YOU quit, YOU follow YOU around. It helps to look at a mirror sometimes.


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## Moneytoo

Just read this article today: How to retire at age 30 (and stay retired), and then read a few posts in the blog of the early retiree: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com.

I don't love my job as much as my husband loves his, but I definitely don't hate it, either. And, frankly, even though I sometimes dream about moving to some tropical paradise after we retire (was looking at Belize the other day) - I have no clue what we're gonna do there as two times when we went to Dominican Republic for two weeks vacations, I was bored after 10 days and was glad to be back... So since then we go for ten days - and, to me, it's just enough.

And with Canadian crazy weather, I probably wouldn't even leave the house on most days if it weren't for work lol


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## IFITSTOBEITSUP2ME

Oh wow, that's not good at all. Life is so short and we should grab every minute of fun, laughter and enjoyment in it we can. Don't spend half to two thirds of your life just wishing for retirement - that's so unhealthy, and many folks never even reach retirement, so you must fully live for today, but plan for tomorrow. As they say, "Yesterday is gone, Today is a gift that's why it's called the present, and tomorrow may never come". They say happiness is a state of mind, no amount of money is worth being miserable for many years to achieve, find something you love to do or maybe establish a way you can alter your state of mind about what you do, but don't wish your life away till retirement that's such a waste. 

We all have to compromise at times in what we do but taking a deep breath sometimes and trying to embrace it can give you a whole different outlook. If not then change what you do till you find something you can make the effort to embrace. Time on this earth can never be replaced, unlike money, don't wish it away or live in misery like so many do, always have something to look forward to hobbies or socially wise, and turn that frown upside down. Look to others so less fortunate than you, physically, mentally, financially, etc - we all have so much to be grateful for compared to many others. Soar with the eagles don't gobble with the turkeys = you become like those you associate with.

I remember saying to my mother many many years ago "Life is what you make it Mum", she would retort "Or what others make it for you" = such a sad outlook, I took after my happy go lucky dad, and struggle in many areas of our lives we did, but we were always grateful for what we had.


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## james4beach

There are good jobs out there! My last one was horrible (people were atrocious) but now at my new job, it's like night and day.

I spent my week doing very interesting work, and feel satisfied with what I'm solving. And today at the end of the day, some fancy cheeses appeared in the kitchen. Then the CEO brought out some 18 year old Glenfiddich Scotch to share with us.

I'm in my 30s, and love my job! I also came home to find my $2800 tax refund credited to my account. It's been quite the day


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## james4beach

My suggestion to others is: don't tolerate a job that makes you unhappy and don't stick with it just for the money. My last office was a very unhappy place with high stress and intense competitiveness. Why did people stay? The pay was spectacular. (In fact it was just announced a few days ago that the company will likely be bought out, and the stock jumped 30% ... I would have been rolling in money if I stayed).

I put up with it for a while, then I left. It was a bit painful and risky but I actually had high blood pressure due to work stress, and I decided enough is enough. I'm a health guy in my 30s, can you imagine having high blood pressure due to a crappy job? Even my doctor basically suggested I ditch the place.

Don't put up with a bad job. There are lots of different jobs out there


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## janus10

james4beach said:


> I spent my week doing very interesting work, and feel satisfied with what I'm solving. And today at the end of the day, some fancy cheeses appeared in the kitchen. Then the CEO brought out some 18 year old Glenfiddich Scotch to share


Please tell me you don't work at a mega daycare for lactose intolerant children. Because, that would be wrong on many levels. :smilet-digitalpoint


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## My Own Advisor

Further to Avrex's point, I see my job as a means to an end.

There are some days I really like my work. Others not so much. This is why the results of our employee satisfaction survey never surprise me.

I have lots of interests as well...but like Avrex....my interests don't pay me much if anything.

Therefore I too must continue to work (at something that doesn't totally inspire me) for another 10-15 years until I have saved up enough to pull the plug.

For our long-term plan:
-We need $1 M in investments to churn out dividends and distributions to live from,
-We need to be debt-free, 
-We need to spend (a bit) less than we are now.

We remain patient, we work hard, we save and we use our funds to live it up now and then and enjoy life. 

I complain that I have not reached early retirement (like some folks have) but I am enjoying the process (of life) of getting there. I still think retirement in my early 50s will be pretty good and I wouldn't have had to make too many sacrifices along the way.

It will be interesting to read others' perspectives.


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## Beaver101

I don't hate the work I do nor my job. But I do hate the layers of bureaucracy that I have to go through just to get "things done" and then the office politics and back-stabbings bs. So TGIF today! 

I merely wish every Friday was a Good one so Happy Good Friday!


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## Userkare

I guess you might say that I was one of the lucky people who turned what started off as a hobby in my teenage years, into a full-time profession. This was electronics and computers back in the mid to late 1960's; I started my first job as a computer programmer in 1970. As the evolution of computers moved to integrated circuit chips that were readily available, I also started doing hardware design. Soon I had an incorporated business offering my hardware/software design services on contract. 

I have always loved what I did, and in the early days, most of my co-workers were as enthusiastic as I was. I can remember a time when 'pulling all-nighters' to solve some technical problem was commonplace. Pizza and Coke was the fuel of progress. More recently, as I moved into a management position, I found that most of the job applicants that I interviewed had little to no interest in computers or electronics outside of the office, aside from maybe gaming. To them, it was just a job that was in great demand when they started school; but once they graduated, realized that the field was so vast it was hard to find work without expertise in a specific aspect of computing.

By the time I was thinking about retiring, I hadn't yet grown to hate my job, but was headed down that track. The thrill of tackling a technical challenge had been replaced by a daily juggling act, on the one side, of management who wanted everything right away, and faster, smaller, cheaper than the competition; and on the other side, of staff who really didn't give a hoot to create something they could take pride in. On my daily commute to work, I would feel my iPhone buzzing in my pocket. I wouldn't look at it ( that's dangerous and illegal ! ) until I was in the parking lot. I would review all the messages before entering the building to see what fuster-cluck I was walking into. I got to gauge the type of day it would be by the number of buzzes. "Crap, it's gonna be a 10 buzz day today!". That's when I knew it was time to retire.


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## RBull

For most of us work is work and play is play. Few will have the benefit of truly "loving their job" or not seeing it as "work". 

Both my wife and I enjoyed our careers. We were doing things we thought were beneficial to society and to our organizations and felt valued. We were also fairly well compensated and enjoyed many perks with the jobs. For a number of years I became self employed which was a rewarding experience, stepping out of my comfort zone and being extra challenged. The flip side of this as many people understand is there isn't any free lunch. Our careers were very demanding with long hours, significant stress and lots of difficult times, some set backs and then some gains. However later in our careers the drive and tolerance becomes much more difficult to sustain. In all our careers afforded us a great lifestyle, many fantastic opportunities and memories, and probably helped us to appreciate not working even more. 

With all of this we had in the back of our minds a desire become FI at relatively early age 50-55. This would allow us to leave our careers at an age where we expect to have many years of high activity but not so many as to be extremely difficult to finance, or cause significant reduction of lifestyle. It was a driving force for us to stay focused and committed to our jobs. We retired and 53 and 55 and haven't looked back since. It's been great and we're excited about this phase of life.


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## OldPro

Moneytoo said:


> Just read this article today: How to retire at age 30 (and stay retired), and then read a few posts in the blog of the early retiree: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com.
> 
> I don't love my job as much as my husband loves his, but I definitely don't hate it, either. And, frankly, even though I sometimes dream about moving to some tropical paradise after we retire (was looking at Belize the other day) - I have no clue what we're gonna do there as two times when we went to Dominican Republic for two weeks vacations, I was bored after 10 days and was glad to be back... So since then we go for ten days - and, to me, it's just enough.
> 
> And with Canadian crazy weather, I probably wouldn't even leave the house on most days if it weren't for work lol


Interesting that no one commented on the link you posted Moneytoo. Instead what we read are comments on not liking a job and what to do about that. It's fine to have a job you don't mind doing or even like doing BUT isn't the real issue for avrex and anyone else posting here about retiring, how to retire SOONER? The link you gave Moneytoo is ALL about that solution and yet it gets ignored. Something wrong with this picture I'd say.

The MMM site along with the EME (Early Retirement Extreme) site are probably the two best known sites on retiring even EARLIER. There is no doubt that some of what you might read on them is what most people would indeed call extreme but the principles do in fact make sense. When I retired 25 years ago, I had a lot of people asking me how I managed to retire at 43. Sometimes it was actually embarassing, as if I must know some secret that I could tell them. My answer has always been the same.

Retiring early is simple but not easy to do. All you have to do is live on less than you earn, save the difference and invest it wisely. Simple but not necessarily easy. Sites like MMM and EME are all about doing just that along with understanding the difference between what you need vs. what you want. From reading many of the threads here, it is clear to me that there are quite a few regular posters here who could in fact retire today but they do not see it that way simply because they can't separate needs from wants.

Re your tropical paradise Moneytoo, I've been there and done that. It works out for a few but not for the majority which means there is nothing wrong with trying it but you still need a plan B. Plan B is being able to live right where you are now if you choose to. In other words, you cannot allow your income to dictate where you can only afford to live. Usually that thinking is flawed anyway. I can live in Canada as easily as anywhere else. But not if I think I NEED to live in a million dollar house in Toronto or Vancouver.


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## donald

I like my job(small business owner)
I just past the 10 yr mark anniversary of being incorporated.
One nice thing(others might not agree!lol)I work along side my father(he does some consulting/semi-retired somewhat lol but very much involved so I guess working with him strengths our bond,I think)
Each project I do is generally a different location/different clients and different scopes of work.
I actually love bidding each and every job
It's primarily roofing but I can be on/off tools if I choose(I like working outside!)
I hope to be involved and stay in business for a long time
I am actually excited to hit the grind right away!
Note:my biggest piss off(trust me I think safety is important)but-the goverment has spawned a entire new industry in the safety space
I can't even sneeze without having to report and document it
Constantly looking over my shoulder each and everyday pariniod of doing something wrong (10 yrs ago the goverment didn't seem to care as much)
I personally think legistations is to crush small business,make it as hard as it can be)
Other than that life is good!


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## Gnote

I despise my job. You can't imagine how much. But, there is light at the end of the tunnel. I will retire in 12 months. Just the simple fact of knowing this makes each day a little easier.


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## avrex

OldPro said:


> It's fine to have a job you don't mind doing or even like doing BUT isn't the real issue for anyone else posting here about retiring, how to retire SOONER? The MMM link you gave Moneytoo is ALL about that solution and yet it gets ignored. Something wrong with this picture I'd say.


I agree. The focus should be on retiring sooner.

And, yes, the Mr. Money Mustache blog and community are a great resource for that. And a very positive resource.

I have now included those links in my opening post.


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## Jon_Snow

Avrex, you are preaching to converted here. I've been ER'ed for about 7 months now - the culmination of a 10 year plan. I have become a bit of a "rock star" on the MMM forums - I actually post much more there now than here...I've been told that my posts serve as both inspriation and motivation for those who want to leave the corporate grind, and live each day in whatever manner their hearts desire. 

I can only say that the reality of ER has easily exceeded the lofty expectations I had built of in my mind during my 10 years of extreme saving and investing and LYBM.

Some folks appear (or so they say) to derive great satisfaction from their jobs...that was never me. There is no job in the world I can think of that can give me the feeling of waking up in the morning and doing WHATEVER I WANT. Thankfully, I have enough saved and invested that I am not limited by lack of funds in terms of what I am able to do. 

If anyone wants to know more about my journey to ER, read my "Journal" on the MMM forums....


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## avrex

Hi Jon, I've always enjoyed and been inspired by your posts here on the CMF forum.

Also, thanks to pointing me to your writings on MMM. (I was wondering where you disappeared to ).

Jon_Snow - Reflections on first 6 months of FIRE...and what comes next.

I'll enjoy the read. thanks.


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## janus10

donald said:


> I like my job(small business owner)
> I just past the 10 yr mark anniversary of being incorporated.
> One nice thing(others might not agree!lol)I work along side my father(he does some consulting/semi-retired somewhat lol but very much involved so I guess working with him strengths our bond,I think)
> Each project I do is generally a different location/different clients and different scopes of work.
> I actually love bidding each and every job
> It's primarily roofing but I can be on/off tools if I choose(I like working outside!)
> I hope to be involved and stay in business for a long time
> I am actually excited to hit the grind right away!
> Note:my biggest piss off(trust me I think safety is important)but-the goverment has spawned a entire new industry in the safety space
> I can't even sneeze without having to report and document it
> Constantly looking over my shoulder each and everyday pariniod of doing something wrong (10 yrs ago the goverment didn't seem to care as much)
> I personally think legistations is to crush small business,make it as hard as it can be)
> Other than that life is good!


What's the shingle most challenging part about your roofing business? Is it the ups and downs of climbing the corporate extension ladder? Do you find the big jobs pallet-able? When you're on site, can you have a private word without worrying about someone eavestroughing? Do you get satisfaction at the end of the day knowing your workers nailed it? Wood you rather do anything else? Do you follow municipal codes, or do you think you are above it all?


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## janus10

Plugging Along said:


> I have to say the little I read in the blog made me just feel really negative. I generally try to not expose myself to negative attitudes where there is a choice. I don't get if someone is so unhappy with work why they don't find different work.
> 
> Sure, I have times where I haven't loved my work, but i almost always enjoy being there, or try to find things I enjoy. If not, then I will look else where. Do I feel fulfilled every moment I am on the office? heck no, I am there to do a job. However, I do find ways to find in enjoyment whether it's in the social aspects Or picking work that interests me. Right now, the piece I am not enjoying about work is lack of direction, or more accurately conflicting direction or constantly changing direction from management.
> 
> The lifestyle my work provides for me, I enjoy very much, so I will put up with some of the lousy things and try to focus on the good things. I wouldn't reitre early to get away from work I harw but not be able to afford the type of retirement and lifestyle I want.


Perhaps you can help give Gnote some ideas as he is in a very unfortunate situation where he "despises" his job and only has 12 more months. I think if I were working in a maximum security prison, THAT would be a job that I would despise. When you fear for your life and are surrounded by such despair (I'd imagine), how could you not be unaffected?


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## donald

Not sure where your coming from janus10
The requirements have cost me a lot of time and money (extra paper work/safety audits/safety equipment etc)
Working construction or from heights is inherently dangerous 
(no matter what)
These things have always been reflected in my insurance and Wcb rates(which have doubled in the last 5 yrs)
The goverment doesn't cover me in any accident/incident(I fund all of it privately)
They only enforce 
Which includes hordes of new goverment employees being paid via taxes payers
Not sure I agree with the process 
What's your reply all about anyhow?


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## avrex

There seems to be two camps of people.

*1. * Those that *truly like their work* including those people that can tolerate work because of the $$$ lifestyle it provides.
*2. * Those that *don't like their work* and would rather be doing more interesting things.

It seems that neither camp of people can quite understand the other camp.

There was a comment above that stated something like, 
"Well, if you don't like your current job, then go find one that you will like."

My simplistic answer is that, "actually I've performed several different jobs over my career. But, none of them brings the same level of satisfaction, that non-paying activities/interests outside of work provide". 

Here's a better response from Jon_Snow,


> My biggest issue was that my life AWAY from my job was full of such wonderful things in equally wonderful places that the hours spent at work were always severely lacking in comparison.


I suspect the two camps will never truly understand each other.


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## Beaver101

^


> ... I suspect the two camps will never truly understand each other.


... +100% ... because everyone's situation/circumstances (including needs, wants, etc.) are different. Bottomline, me, myself and I, to decide on retiring early or not. Cheers,


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## Moneytoo

OldPro said:


> Retiring early is simple but not easy to do. All you have to do is live on less than you earn, save the difference and invest it wisely. Simple but not necessarily easy. Sites like MMM and EME are all about doing just that along with understanding the difference between what you need vs. what you want.


We're at this stage right now - after paying off our mortgage two years ago and then spending a big chunk of our savings last spring on a new car for my husband (I never owned one, TTC works for me) and a master bathroom renovation, it suddenly hit me: we need to start saving for retirement as we'll be 50 in a few years... So I'm saving and investing almost all of my earnings since last summer, plus leftovers from my husband's salary (as he makes more than me - and more than enough for a comfortable living), and we (mostly me) slowly change our attitudes towards high earners/big savers (as opposed to big spenders) Yeah, I know, better late than never  

But what motivated me wasn't that I hate my job and want to retire ASAP, but the realization that I might lose my job and never find a new one (as I don't see many women over 50 in IT - and the example of my closest friend, who lost her high-paying job years ago, and after few years gave up looking for a new one, settling for a part-time low-paying job) Maybe that's why I'm hesitant to actually plan for an early retirement - because I see it as more of a punishment than a reward... and "old" vs. "young" :stupid:



OldPro said:


> Re your tropical paradise Moneytoo, I've been there and done that. It works out for a few but not for the majority which means there is nothing wrong with trying it but you still need a plan B. Plan B is being able to live right where you are now if you choose to. In other words, you cannot allow your income to dictate where you can only afford to live. Usually that thinking is flawed anyway. I can live in Canada as easily as anywhere else. But not if I think I NEED to live in a million dollar house in Toronto or Vancouver.


Discussed it with my husband, he also hates Toronto winters, but likes the summers (and looooves our Toronto house ), so doesn't mind exploring a few places as "a winter getaway" (especially the ones with good Internet connection so he can work from there if needed lol) Anyways, we're obviously so not ready and uninformed, I'll do more searching and reading (and maybe will stop avoiding retirement threads on this forum... )

Thank you for your reply! =)


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## cainvest

avrex said:


> There was a comment above that stated something like,
> "Well, if you don't like your current job, then go find one that you will like."
> 
> My simplistic answer is that, "actually I've performed several different jobs over my career. But, none of them brings the same level of satisfaction, that non-paying activities/interests outside of work provide".


I think the real question, as opposed to you've worked several different jobs, is can you find a job in the same area(s) as your non-paying activities/interests? 

I believe I can understand both camps, having worked jobs in the past which I didn't enjoy. If I didn't have (or could find) a job I liked, I too would be looking at early retirement and likely try to figure out the fastest means possible to get there.


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## gibor365

> I suspect the two camps will never truly understand each other.


 I don't think so... imho, there is a very few who truly love their job 100% of times and a few who hates it 100% of times.... The picture more not black or white , but greyish 
Sometimes I'm OK with my job, sometimes I don't like it, sometimes I really hate it... It's vary every single day/week...It depends on assignments you get or don't get, on your manager and many other things.
If to put it on scale 1- hate, 10 - love, fo me average wii be maybe 3-4.
I worked in different countries and in different fields, from police officer to IT, and I've nrver truly liked my job, even though there were short periods that I enjoyed...
I'm now in similar situation as MoneeToo....
Now I'm just swimming with the trend... 3-4 years ago our company got sold to Indian one.... and trend is to outsource as many positions as possible to India, every year we have big lay offs and everyone knows that at some point he/she will be laid off...in this is regardless of how good you work.... also last 3-4 years we practically don't have raises agsin regardless of how good you work...
So, just drifting and waiting  , not planning tp retire by myself.... As I'm working 12+ years should get pretty decent package adb than IE ... So, I'll see how it is.... if I really need, will try after this to find some contract job....


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## gibor365

> -We need $1 M in investments to churn out dividends and distributions to live from,
> -We need to be debt-free,


Do you think it's enough?! With 1mil , assuming you have yield 4% (and I may be less as you will need some money in fixed-income), you family income will be 40K..+ at 60 you may start to get CPP.... is it enough without touching principal?! I'd assume that you need twice as much unless you gonna live a very modest life.


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## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> I'd assume that you need twice as much unless you gonna live a very modest life.


My husband and I, independently from each other, came up with a 10M figure - in our understanding of "we'll never need to worry about money" lol But unless we win a lottery, it's not going to happen, so we'll save what we can - and will keep worrying about the money until we learn to live on less I guess


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## gibor365

> My husband and I, independently from each other, came up with a 10M figure


10M?! Are you serious?! In this case you can really forget about retirement thread 
Do you really need annual income 400K?! "stesnjaus' sprosit'" what is your income now


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## gibor365

Also I don't think you need to calculate how much portfolio you want to have at retirement, but how much income you need without touching principal...
Your portfolio can be 1mil one year and 800K another year (you can't predict the market), but if your dividend/interest income icreased form 40K to 45K it should be fine


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## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> 10M?! Are you serious?! In this case you can really forget about retirement thread
> Do you really need annual income 400K?! "stesnjaus' sprosit'" what is your income now


Well I guess we both think that investing in stocks to get 4% or more is not really safe, and the only truly safe investments (bonds and GICs) would yield less than our current combined income, and when we were making 200K before taxes - we somehow managed to spend it all (even though our mortgage payments weren't that high since we bought our house under 300K almost 20 years ago) Frankly, I have no clue where did the money go, and now that we make more, save about half of our earnings and still maintain almost the same lifestyle, I thought we were doing great - but living on 25-30K that were quoted by MMM sounded to me as unachievable as saving 10M lol

Disclaimer: our current portfolio is mostly equities with no bonds, so we're not trying to invest super-safely (and 10M invested in bonds was just our understanding of "never having to *worry* about money )


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## somedude

Letran said:


> Wow, that must be the most NEGATIVE blog I have ever wasted my time reading.
> 
> A little venting is ok, but my, my, that is going postal.
> 
> Life is too short, Love what you do, or do what you love.


I registered for an account just to respond to this
I read that most of that guy's blog. he's not all that negative, don't think so, and doesn't hate his job function, just culture and politics. There's some useful stuff on his site, try not to judge the whole thing by that one post. ( Although yeah, that post is pretty ridiculous. )

As the OP stated, most people don't love what they do. Instead they try to make the best of it.
Agree that focusing on the misery is a terrible thing to do.
But to pretend problems don't exist is lying to yourself. The super happy life-is-perfect blogs are worse than this IMO because there's zero truth.

But whatever, we're all entitled to our own opinion.


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## gibor365

With 10M even if you deposit your money inti supersafe GIC 5y ladder, you may easily get 2.5% interest and have 250K income annually... I just can't imagine how couple in retirement can spend 250K 


> Frankly, I have no clue where did the money go, and now that we make more, save about half of our earnings and still maintain almost the same lifestyle


We had similar situation, so recently I just calculated our expenses and income for 2014, it was easy as all our CC's and payments linked to one CIBC account...
so, without really traing so safe and managing our life style , including a lot of spending on sport activities and 2-3 trips abroad, our saving rate was 34% of income...
Thus, we know approximately how much we spend annually... I'd assume that retirement income should be about 70% of preretirement one, so I can estimate what level of income we need in retirement


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> I just can't imagine how couple in retirement can spend 250K


Well I guess I didn't really think about us as a retired couple for this exercise, more like a couple on a long "all expenses paid" vacation :biggrin: But now that I've given it some thought, I would really like to renovate our house, so if I'm forced to retire earlier and my husband is still working - this is what I'd love to be spending time and money on (and I think I'll need about 100K just for the main floor lol)



gibor said:


> Thus, we know approximately how much we spend annually... I'd assume that retirement income should be about 70% of preretirement one, so I can estimate what level of income we need in retirement


Aha, here's where I have a misconception - when I think about retirement, I think about all the things that we can't do now because we don't have the time, so I thought we'd need more money, not less (especially if we were to buy or rent a second house for winter getaways) Definitely need to do more reading on the subject, thank you!


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## gibor365

In retirement, you take vacations not when you can book time off or when kids have vacation, but when you can find a deal 
you will spend less on gas and on public transportation, less income = less taxes...
you may spend less on food.... now we don't have much time, so going to supermarket once per week ot 2 weeks, buy a lot of stuff ...and throwing to garbage 30% of it  and so on...
Sure, if you want to buy in retirement yacht or cottage , you will need more income


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## Moneytoo

Riiight, and a yacht, I forgot about a yacht for my husband! lol For now he's sailing with friends, but I'm sure when he grows up I mean retires he'd want his own, so will need to save some more...


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## Daniel A.

The fact is some people can do what they want owning a business and hiring people to manage it. For most of us working is a way of life we put in our time and hope for the best.

Early retirement can mean many things, in my case it was working rotating shifts and planing my time around work schedules.
I could think of many things I would rather do but income plays a part.

Once I got to the point of being able after some thirty years working I wanted out !!!!!!!!

Life has never been the same for me.
I may decide to head down to Cabo or somewhere else for a month or more.
I may decide to explore BC or the East Coast because I can. 

Having a good pension gives me the ability to do what I decide and I live MY DREAM !!!!!!


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## OldPro

Reading some comments actually gets to be somewhat hilarious. Or would be if it wasn't obvious that those writing them are actually serious and can't see what they are actually saying about where they are in their own heads.

Forget 'do you like your job'. As Kevin O'Leary often says, 'SHOW ME THE MONEY'. That is WHY you work whether you like your job or not. There may be the odd person who truly does what they do because they love doing it but they are very few and far between. If you don't believe me answer this simple question. If your boss calls you into the office tomorrow and says, 'we're cutting your income in half', what will your reaction be? I doubt very many will still be saying, 'I love my job and if you don't like your job you should look for one you do like.' Work is not about liking your job, it's about making money.

Regarding working or being retired, here's how that goes. You are either a member of the working class which is anyone who has to work for a living regardless of what position they have or how much they earn, OR you are a member of the leisure class which is anyone who does NOT have to work for a living regardless of what position they left or how much income they have when not working. Someone working and earning $100k+ a year has nothing to crow about over someone who no longer works and is earning $20k+ a year. It is the person with the $20k WITHOUT working who has something to crow about. Especially if they are doing it at a younger age. Does anyone seriously think that being a member of the working class is superior to being a member of the leisure class?

Our society tells you that your 'heros' should be those who earn more money than you do. That is what you should aspire to. Nonsense, what you should aspire to is being FREE to do as you please, when you please and for as long as you please. NO one who works is free to do that. This misguided sense of what is important is the primary reason why many people who retire are unhappy. Their self worth is all tied up in what they do for a living and their position in the pecking order. They retire and suddenly they are a 'nobody'. Our society DEPENDS on you continuing to work and continuing to CONSUME. 

We live in a consumer society. Obama made a speech recently in which he encouraged people to SPEND money and support the economy. If people don't keep spending the economy will collapse. How clear does the message need to be for people to realize that? Soceity says you HAVE to keep working and you have to keep SPENDING.

Meanwhile some 30 year old who has figured out how to retire and have a $20k a year income without having to work is laying on a beach somewhere without a care in the world. That 30 year old can work tomorrow if s/he CHOOSES to or s/he can go and find another beach to lay on for a change of scenery. That is the person to admire and look up to as a 'hero'. That person has beat the system at it's own game.

Avrex there are indeed two groups but they are not those who like work and those who don't. The two groups are those who are the suckers who buy the system's story and those who see through it and figure out how to be FREE.


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## cainvest

OldPro said:


> Forget 'do you like your job'. As Kevin O'Leary often says, 'SHOW ME THE MONEY'. That is WHY you work whether you like your job or not. There may be the odd person who truly does what they do because they love doing it but they are very few and far between. If you don't believe me answer this simple question. If your boss calls you into the office tomorrow and says, 'we're cutting your income in half', what will your reaction be? I doubt very many will still be saying, 'I love my job and if you don't like your job you should look for one you do like.' Work is not about liking your job, it's about making money.


First to answer your question, though based on your perspective it's likely impossible for you to understand ... yes, I'd still keep my job at half pay.  And NO, it's not all about money for everyone ... serveral of my friends have taken less pay in order to work in a field/job that they like and I completely understand this. Many years ago I went from a part time job to a different full time one for the same pay! So why would I work twice as many hours for the same pay .... because the new work presented a more interesting intellectual challenge.



OldPro said:


> Meanwhile some 30 year old who has figured out how to retire and have a $20k a year income without having to work is laying on a beach somewhere without a care in the world. That 30 year old can work tomorrow if s/he CHOOSES to or s/he can go and find another beach to lay on for a change of scenery. That is the person to admire and look up to as a 'hero'. That person has beat the system at it's own game.


Someone who can lay around on a beach is not one I'd admire and I would (and do) find that majorly boring. Financially, I could easily be that person on the beach right now but it's not for me. Now if that is a person's goal in life, all the power to you and enjoy your beach time.


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## avrex

Great post, @OldPro.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Oldpro - You're posts raise some good points, but they are the extreme end of one side of 'the pendulum of life'. A path somewhere in the middle is going to be the appropriate choice for most people. 
I agree that there is too much focus on consumerism. 
I disagree that someone who has chosen to live on $20k and 'lie on a beach' is a hero, or that that it is something most people should aspire to. If so, they'd better hope that a few others have chosen a more conventional life, in say the health field - to treat their skin cancer (under a paid-for health system). And to continue to fund the government's ability to provide long term care and all the other services and infrastructure that have people coming to Canada to offer their families a better quaility of life. Or returning after they grow bored of life on the beach.
I also disagree that 'many people who retire are unhappy' - more often I think we read the opposite. I agree however that if you can't find happiness in life while you are working, married, or raising a family, then I suspect you will not be happy in retirement either.


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## Moneytoo

OldPro said:


> Meanwhile some 30 year old who has figured out how to retire and have a $20k a year income without having to work is laying on a beach somewhere without a care in the world. That 30 year old can work tomorrow if s/he CHOOSES to or s/he can go and find another beach to lay on for a change of scenery. That is the person to admire and look up to as a 'hero'. That person has beat the system at it's own game.


It all sounds fine and dandy, but "back in the USSR" such people were called "parasites" - and I believe rightfully so, as "the working class" has to keep working (and consuming) to support their leisurely lifestyle. If you live off of dividends - you need the companies to keep producing. If you live off of interest - you need the consumers to support the economy. And we all know what can happen when the working class decides that it doesnt want to support the growing leisure class any longer.

A similar example (and I don't see much difference between the two) is my friend who divorced her husband and now is living la vida loca off alimony. She hardly ever worked before, but now doesn't even pretend that "she's looking for a job, but can't find one", taking few trips a year (just came back from Mexico) while he works his butt off to pay for his apartment and now her house, taking care of their son on weekends. Is she supposed to be my hero, too? 

Anyways, let's not get carried away here or this thread will get moved to the Hot Button underground, but calling some young lazy butt lying on the beach a 'hero' was just too much


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## avrex

You guys are missing OldPro's point.

The guy who has chosen to live on $20k feels that he is 'Free'. It is a choice he has made. And he is happy.

As I said earlier...



avrex said:


> There seems to be two camps of people.
> 
> *1. * Those that *truly like their work* including those people that can tolerate work because of the $$$ lifestyle it provides.
> *2. * Those that *don't like their work* and would rather be doing more interesting things.
> 
> I suspect the two camps will never truly understand each other.


----------



## Moneytoo

And you are missing a simple math point: how many people, whether happily or unhappily, will need to keep producing AND consuming to keep him (and others who are "free") happy? Say he owns shares of McDonald's that pay him a thousand dollars a year in dividends - how many people are involved for him to "earn" (by doing nothing) that thousand? Even if he needs only 20K to live - it means he'd still need thousands of people to work and consume to make it possible. So the least he can do is be grateful


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## el oro

Moneytoo brought up a recurring critique of the early retirement lifestyle - the living off of society/others argument. More on that here:

http://updatedpriors.blogspot.ca/2015/02/the-early-retirement-movement.html


> What's important is that the ERE world is a world where a key input to production--labor--is supplied in lower quantities. The ERE strategy is to own productive assets--but those assets are less productive without workers, and in the long run that means fewer productive assets.
> 
> ERE works great in partial equilibrium. Mr. Money Mustache is very enthusiastic about how technology and general wealth have made his lifestyle possible. But if everyone did it, who would build the gadgets? Who would build and operate the machines that build the gadgets? Who would work for the companies in which MMM owns stock? The key point is this: the ERE world isn't just about people saving more. It's about people working less, and that's what kills it.
> 
> ERE works if we're willing to accept lower aggregate output than the counterfactual. I don't get the impression that the ERE people accept that. The robots can make it possible. Until then, it's not in the feasible set.
> 
> But that doesn't matter! Because not everyone is trying to do it. You and I can still do it, or at least get as close to it as we want.


@Cainvest, I'll be retiring early as I haven't found any other profession preferable to complete freedom. I've researched every profession I could imagine, including constantly browsing businesses for sale across the country for ideas. 

Unlike some ER folks, I feel a strong obligation to give back so I won't be lounging on the beach nor do I think it's something to aspire to. I'll still be doing international travel and have children in the future but I'd also like to take on some of society's big issues.


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## gibor365

Moneytoo, I also was thinking about it  Looks like the trend now to retire earlier and earlier.... there are hundreds of blogs where people aiming to retire at 40 or even earlier.... My son, 2nd year university and he's planning to retire at 35 
I'm just wondering who gonna work?! hence, all those dividends and interests are just "papers and numbers"...


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## avrex

@Moneytoo, and you are also missing a simple point.
The guys who is financially independent is....... financially independent.

You're insinuating that he is dependent on others (perhaps the government) for financial assistance. He's not dependent at all. He's financially independent.
He's lived below his means and saved all of his working life. Now he is free. He does not have to work anymore. He can retire 'early'. He has enough to live on for the rest of his life.

And yet, for some reason, you think he should keep on working at a job that he has no interest in.

As, I said earlier..... Both sides will never understand each other.


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## Beaver101

^


> *gibor*... I'm just wondering who gonna work?


 ... those on the Ontario Sunshine List or how about the Senators' list? They work very hard ... :rolleyes2:


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## cainvest

avrex said:


> You guys are missing OldPro's point.
> 
> The guy who has chosen to live on $20k feels that he is 'Free'. It is a choice he has made. And he is happy.
> 
> As I said earlier...


I don't think that was OldPro only point, more so that OldPro feels the $20k year beach living person is better off than those whom choose to work. There is nothing wrong with wanting or living that lifestyle if it makes you happy but its definitely not the retirement goal for me or many others for that matter.


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## el oro

You're missed Moneytoo's point again avrex. The 'others' that you depend on to retire early are workers, not government. You save up and invest productive capital. What makes that capital productive? Workers.


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## RBull

Apparently there are some who believe they alone have all the answers and choose to mock all those who dare not to share their dogma and lifestyle choices. 

They believe all people should aspire to only to what they believe and that there are only 2 types of people - those with freedom through no employment and all the remainder who are suckers for working - no matter how noble, vital or satisfying their position, or how well thought their future plans might be. And there are others who see more balance- a world where some people choose to work even if they don't have to, and are free to aspire to their own goals and aspirations, and make other choices that better suit their personalities and future needs...

There are some worship the 30 year retiree living a glamorous life moving from beach to beach at poverty level; and there are those who see it as a lifelong sentence of self imposed financial imprisonment. There are some who believe this 30 year on the beach doesn't have a care in the world and there are those who see the danger of poverty, the potential of a crisis that may drastically spoil this spartan lifestyle with little financial room for an emergency. There are some who believe this person can simply go back to work if needed and there are some who see this as unlikely with outdated skills, a resume without recent work history and likely an attitude that screams that they don't like to work for anyone. There are some who see any employee as a second class citizen, all worshiping consumerism, all wrapped in their own self importance and sentenced to slavery and there are some who see this working person as a shining example of ambition and a model citizen happily contributing to society, while living a financially responsible life with healthy retirement plans. There are some who are compelled to defend "leisure class" as the person to crow about...a superior person to aspire to vs. the working sucker. And there are some who are smart enough to decide for themselves the kind of life they want, where they want to be and go for it. Some believe consumerism is stretched to the limit and creates unnecessary standards some overreach for. On that we would agree.

Perhaps if there is a sucker it is the person who believes there is a one fits all solution to a happy and successful life, and two vastly different classes of people.


----------



## Plugging Along

avrex said:


> You guys are missing OldPro's point.
> 
> The guy who has chosen to live on $20k feels that he is 'Free'. It is a choice he has made. And he is happy.
> 
> As I said earlier...


Oldpro has made his point over and over, he is happy and is not a sucker. He has made choices to allow him to be 'free' which is great, however, many others do not think those choices are for them because, guess what, they have different goals. He calls them suckers. 

I understand his point, and see that there are definite merits, and that is the life that makes him happy. Others are not willing Or need to make the same choices for the life THEY want because it is not the life that makes them happy. Therefore, They are a sucker, or materialist, or bought into the consumerism. 



$1600 Gold by 2011 said:


> @Cainvest, I'll be retiring early as I haven't found any other profession preferable to complete freedom. I've researched every profession I could imagine, including constantly browsing businesses for sale across the country for ideas.
> 
> Unlike some ER folks, *I feel a strong obligation to give back so I won't be lounging on the beach nor do I think it's something to aspire to. I'll still be doing international travel and have children in the future but I'd also like to take on some of society's big issues*.


I have no desire of sitting on a beach, and hope that is not what my children aspire too. I have no more respect for the beach bumming 30 year old as I do for a $100k work all the time. Above is what I respect. If my kids want to retire early so they can pursue big issues, or give back, I would be so proud. just like some say it not how much you make but how much you save, I believe it's not how much have but what you do with what you have. 



RBull said:


> Apparently there are some who believe they alone have all the answers and choose to mock all those who dare not to share their dogma and lifestyle choices.
> 
> They believe all people should aspire to only to what they believe and that there are only 2 types of people - those with freedom through no employment and all the remainder who are suckers for working - no matter how noble, vital or satisfying their position, or how well thought their future plans might be. And there are others who see more balance- a world where some people choose to work even if they don't have to, and are free to aspire to their own goals and aspirations, and make other choices that better suit their personalities and future needs...
> 
> There are some worship the 30 year retiree living a glamorous life moving from beach to beach at poverty level; and there are those who see it as a lifelong sentence of self imposed financial imprisonment. There are some who believe this 30 year on the beach doesn't have a care in the world and there are those who see the danger of poverty, the potential of a crisis that may drastically spoil this spartan lifestyle with little financial room for an emergency. There are some who believe this person can simply go back to work if needed and there are some who see this as unlikely with outdated skills, a resume without recent work history and likely an attitude that screams that they don't like to work for anyone. There are some who see any employee as a second class citizen, all worshiping consumerism, all wrapped in their own self importance and sentenced to slavery and there are some who see this working person as a shining example of ambition and a model citizen happily contributing to society, while living a financially responsible life with healthy retirement plans. There are some who are compelled to defend "leisure class" as the person to crow about...a superior person to aspire to vs. the working sucker. And there are some who are smart enough to decide for themselves the kind of life they want, where they want to be and go for it. Some believe consumerism is stretched to the limit and creates unnecessary standards some overreach for. On that we would agree.
> 
> Perhaps if there is a sucker it is the person who believes there is a one fits all solution to a happy and successful life, and two vastly different classes of people.


+1000 well said


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> Moneytoo, I also was thinking about it  Looks like the trend now to retire earlier and earlier.... there are hundreds of blogs where people aiming to retire at 40 or even earlier.... My son, 2nd year university and he's planning to retire at 35
> I'm just wondering who gonna work?! hence, all those dividends and interests are just "papers and numbers"...


Yeah, the virus is definitely spreading: http://forums.redflagdeals.com/living-off-dividends-retiring-early-1708509/ 

Our 22 year old daughter is graduating this year and wants to go to the medical school (we'll find out in May if she made it - 4 more years for us to work for sure to pay for it as we want her to be debt-free when she graduates ) 

And then we can kick her and my husband's elderly parents who live with us out of the house, sell the house, invest the money - and join some nude colony to save on clothes lol


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## lightcycle

The 30-year-old lying on the beach collecting KO dividends doesn't have to buy Coca Cola's products to contribute to the economy and society.

He already did by lending his capital to the company in the first place by buying shares.

One could argue that investing in companies via the stock market plays a larger role in contributing to the growth and success of the economy than buying the output of these companies.


----------



## Moneytoo

avrex said:


> @Moneytoo, and you are also missing a simple point.
> The guys who is financially independent is....... financially independent.
> 
> You're insinuating that he is dependent on others (perhaps the government) for financial assistance. He's not dependent at all. He's financially independent.
> He's lived below his means and saved all of his working life. Now he is free. He does not have to work anymore. He can retire 'early'. He has enough to live on for the rest of his life.
> 
> And yet, for some reason, *you think he should keep on working at a job that he has no interest in*.
> 
> As, I said earlier..... Both sides will never understand each other.


Avrex, I understand your side more than you can imagine as I've struggled to find my happy place in the workspace for years. When we came to Canada in 1994, I worked as a salesperson at home electronics store for half a year - it's one of the shittiest and lowest paying jobs (I paid more for a babysitter to look after our 1.5 year old daughter), yet I was happy to be in Canada, to be learning English faster than I would in school, and to learn about electronics (believe it or not, I've never seen a microwave or a karaoke machine before, so was excited to show customers how to use them - while learning myself)

Fastforward 8 years - and I was miserable working as a software developer (after confirming my education from back home, and changing two jobs) and couldn't wait to get laid off (as the companies were shrinking post Y2K bug boom), buy my own business and "be my own boss" (a similar to ERE idée fixe for unhappily employed back then)

Fastforward 4 years - and I was an unhappy owner of a failed business that I couldn't even sell, so ended up closing at a loss.

Two more IT jobs (I was lucky to be able to get back in - learning Java and C# on the fly) - and I was miserable again, hating my job, looking for every excuse not to go to work.

I finally quit and stayed home for a few years, doing a lot of soul-searching and translating a book. I thought I was happy - and was sure that I'll never have to go back to "the rat race"... But alas - my husband lost his high-paying job, and confessed that he was miserable, too, and now wants to join his friends/former co-workers in a start-up, for free - "for now"...

So I went back to work, and we lived on my 80K salary for a while, dipping into savings only for family vacations. And you know what? For the first time in my life I felt like a responsible adult - and a true partner in our marriage. And even though there were days when I hated my job more than ever - I knew I couldn't quit because my family depends on it.

And now that my husband's business endevour didn't succeed (but we're still glad that we both tried what we wanted) and he's back to work, I can quit any day. And, somehow, knowing that I don't HAVE to work, but CHOOSE to keep working, makes me if not happy, but content 

As for me thinking that somebody should keep working at the job they hate or have no interest in... I don't remember saying it, but I guess I am thinking it: simply because I had more self-respect when I realized that it's not all just about me, my likes and dislikes etc. But, then again, I was able to try different things - so shouldn't be judging others, especially those who want to get out.

Me... I'm staying in - for now


----------



## Eclectic12

OldPro said:


> ... Instead what we read are comments on not liking a job and what to do about that. It's fine to have a job you don't mind doing or even like doing BUT isn't the real issue for avrex and anyone else posting here about retiring, how to retire SOONER? ...


Odd ... where one is happy with one's job - why would "how to retire sooner" be the focus? 

Certainly for avrex and anyone else *who hates their job*, I can see that retiring earlier is the goal ... a job they hate less if it does not sacrifice how long it takes to get to their goal is a reasonable short term goal.




OldPro said:


> ... The link you gave Moneytoo is ALL about that solution and yet it gets ignored. Something wrong with this picture I'd say.


For those in avrex's situation ... I'd say yes. 
For those that love their jobs ... I'd say no.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

Beaver101 said:


> avrex said:
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be two camps of people.
> 
> *1. * Those that *truly like their work* including those people that can tolerate work because of the $$$ lifestyle it provides.
> *2. * Those that *don't like their work* and would rather be doing more interesting things.
> 
> It seems that neither camp of people can quite understand the other camp ...
> I suspect the two camps will never truly understand each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ^... +100% ... because everyone's situation/circumstances (including needs, wants, etc.) are different. Bottomline, me, myself and I, to decide on retiring early or not. Cheers,
Click to expand...

That's a pretty stark way of looking at it ... I can understand both sides and can also see why some will choose what they choose to do about it.

Or to put it another way ... just because choice one fits a person - does it really have to me they can't understand choice two?


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

OldPro said:


> ... Forget 'do you like your job'. As Kevin O'Leary often says, 'SHOW ME THE MONEY'. That is WHY you work whether you like your job or not. There may be the odd person who truly does what they do because they love doing it but they are very few and far between. If you don't believe me answer this simple question. If your boss calls you into the office tomorrow and says, 'we're cutting your income in half', what will your reaction be? I doubt very many will still be saying, 'I love my job and if you don't like your job you should look for one you do like.' Work is not about liking your job, it's about making money.


Trouble is I know far more people than you do who have been presented with "why stick it out at job x when there's a demand for job y that would increase income by 30% to 100%" and have chosen to stick with what they are doing. If they weren't interested in trying for a substantial, quick raise - they are clearly not sticking to it for the money. 




OldPro said:


> ... Someone working and earning $100k+ a year has nothing to crow about over someone who no longer works and is earning $20k+ a year. It is the person with the $20k WITHOUT working who has something to crow about. Especially if they are doing it at a younger age. Does anyone seriously think that being a member of the working class is superior to being a member of the leisure class?


Does someone who is early retired and is miserable have anything to crow about versus someone working who is happy?

IMO ... it's the person who is happy with they are doing or are not doing that has something to crow about.




OldPro said:


> ... Our society tells you that your 'heros' should be those who earn more money than you do. That is what you should aspire to. Nonsense, what you should aspire to is being FREE to do as you please, when you please and for as long as you please. NO one who works is free to do that.


 .... for which some of the early retirees used their freedom to start another business venture, others changed what they did and others hang out on the beach. 


Cheers


----------



## janus10

donald said:


> What's your reply all about anyhow?


Sorry, Donald. I think you misinterpreted my pun filled post as simply littered with spelling mistakes or grammatical errors. I just couldn't resist. Ironic that as a roofer, it went over your head.

If you do work in the GTA please PM me. I may be in need for a new roof this year as we lost quite a few shingles last year during the wind storms and it's about 13 years old.


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## OldPro

My last response seems to have set the cat among the pigeons. Some might want to really examine just WHY they are becoming so vemenent. The underlying causes, not the obvious.

I wrote that YOU work for money. I don't believe that 99.9% of people work for love or any other altruistic reasons. I'm just telling it like I see it. I'm not saying everyone hates their job or that no one loves their job. I'm saying most of you work for money. What's wrong with admitting that? Does it make you a bad person? In response to that we see comments like, "Trouble is I know far more people than you do who ......." That's hilarious. Know more people than I do? Come on, now we're gonna play the 'mine is bigger than yours' game? It's not a viable argument at all. Show me statistics that show more people would stay in their job if their salary has halfed vs. those who would leave if it were halfed. Does anyone really think that's the case? I gave a simple example question that common sense should tell you indicates that yes indeed, the vast majority of people work for MONEY, whether they like/love/dislike or hate the job.

Then I gave a simple example of someone working and earning $100k vs. someone not working and earning $20k. First, it is an EXAMPLE, but what do we read, various comments about not wanting to be a beach bum. What has that got to do with anything? If I had written that the guy earning $20k without working was volunteering without pay, fulltime, in a war torn country to help refugees, how would you then argue about not wanting to be that $20k unemployed bum? What someone who is financially independent chooses to do with their time is irrelevant to the point I was making. Yet responses focus on the beach bum aspect and attempt to 'hang their hat' on that. No one actually attempts to argue that the $100k worker is superior to the $20k beach bum. They only atttempt to argue that they don't want to be a beach bum. I'll say it again, the $20k financially independent person is more worth lookng up to than the $100k worker. The $20k person has achieved what the $100k worker has not. Financial independence and FREEDOM to do WHATEVER they want with their time.

Society tells us to look up to those who earn big bucks. You could almost say it is bred into us. Now I am saying to YOU that I disagree with society's value system. But that system includes YOU and so it isn't a big leap subconsciously to read what I have written as 'the guy earning $20k not working vs. YOU earning $100k working, is better than you.' Oops, that's annoying to contemplate isn't it. It can be perceived as a direct attack on your self worth. Can't have that happening without saying I'm wrong can we.

When I say that if someone is posting in a retirement forum, my guess is they want to retire and if you want to retire than it seems to logically follow that retiring earlier would be preferable, what responses does that get? "Odd ... where one is happy with one's job - why would "how to retire sooner" be the focus?" How is that a rebuttal of what I said? If one is looking at retiring, whether happy with their job or not, one is looking at retiring. If one is looking at retiring, why would sooner NOT be better? Give me an argument about why the majority of people if given the choice would NOT want to retire sooner. That would be a rebuttal.

Then we come to the 'parasite' joke with someone actually using that exact word. Really? You want to try and argue that someone who has achieved financial independence WITHIN the system's rules is then not contributing to society somehow? Is that like when I beat you at marbles in the schoolyard because I am a better player than you and you then say it's not fair and I should give them back to you? I am indeed saying most people are 'suckers' and I can also understand why YOU don't like to read that since it probably includes YOU. But it doesn't make me wrong. Show me how MOST people are NOT suckers to the system, that would be a rebuttal. Not write that, "no matter how noble, vital or satisfying their position, or how well thought their future plans might be.", because that does nto apply to MOST people. If you want to argue I am wrong about the MOST you cannot respond with an argument that applies only to the FEW or the 'some'.

Let me add further insult to injury. I agree that if everyone figured out a way to retire earlier it would creat havoc. I do indeed depend on workers to keep working so that I can keep earning an income without working. That's the part of the 'system' that allows me to not work. Without all the worker bees consuming, I'd be in a real pickle. But in fact, most do work and consume and I thank them for that. I'm just better at working the system than they are, just like I was better at playing marbles. There are always winners and losers. Workers are losers and the leisure class are the winners. I prefer winning and so I chose to BEAT the system at it's own game. I'm not about to apologize for that. Keep working, keep spending/buying, keep earing me money, I'm all in favour of that.

The fact is that early retirement is like a lot of other things. MOST can't do it. There is always only the 1% or so who rise to the top. I understand that MOST can't and I understand why if someone says that is the 1% to aim for and YOU don't see yourself as making it into that 1%, it can be upsetting. But I can't change it for you. Either YOU rise to the top or YOU don't. But don't try to tell me where the top is, I know where it is. Financial independence as young as possible. I've already beat myself up for not figuring it out sooner than I did.

Finally, I apologize in advance to anyone who takes anything I have written personally. I am not trying to insult or belittle anyone and what they have done with their life. A few people may well be happy working, content and feel fulfilled. MOST not so much though. I am just trying to convey a message. That message will perhaps resonate with a FEW who will see the way forward. For MOST the lightbulb simply will not go on. That's just the way it is, not my fault, not your fault, just what is is.

The good thing here I think, is that we are together generating discussion and hopefully further thought without anyone really stooping to personal attacks which in many forums, a discussion such as this one has become often degenerates into. If you decide you are happy, I am happy for you. But if you are really NOT as happy as you can be, I want to shake your tree. 

Peace be to all.


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## AMABILE

oldpro, that was beautiful.


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## Daniel A.

OldPro there is also the greed factor.

I know several individuals that could have walked away from jobs given their personal asset wealth but still woke up every day and went to work.
They are just average working people who had a knack for saving & investing.

I chose to retire as soon as possible leaving a six figure job behind this was not something the above mentioned folks could understand.
I had many debates with some of them trying to understand what the purpose was.
One guy even had a serious cancer that took him off work for a year yet his goal was to return at 61 years old and being worth over 5 million dollars plus two great pensions.

There are many views that people have when it comes to money I just know that for me I'm happy with early retirement even though there were many personal moments of job satisfaction.


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## gibor365

> Me... I'm staying in - for now


Interesting story! ...and reading you posts, I have impression that you guys never gonna retire...at least in next 25-30 years


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## Moneytoo

Well there're usually two "substances" that always end up on top, and at this point of my life I'm closer to the 100K worker (but not quite there yet )

I've been trying to become a manager (it would take me over that threshold), but realized that I have much more freedom as "the specialist" - and, in a way, I'm beating "the system", too.

On a typical day I actually WORK only 3-4 hours (due to personal super-efficiency in a convoluted corporate culture infested with stupidity and incompetence)

The rest of the time I spend chatting with co-workers (there're some great people there), smoking, drinking coffee, reading forums, articles and financial news. My commute both ways is about an hour (20 min in the morning, 40 in the evening)

When I think about what I'd rather do if I didn't have to go to work - I can't think of anything really interesting and exciting that would inspire me to spend the rest of my life on a very tight budget.

I don't have any hobbies (the only one at the moment is investing - and I need to keep working to keep saving and investing) My husband is very engaged with his work, my daughter is busier than both of us, so it's not like I'll be spending more time with family. Except for my parents-in-law who live with us, but it's rather a demotivation  

I keep reading MMM's blog. Most of the things that he recommends we do already, and some of the "sacrifices" I'm not yet ready to make - I'd rather keep working.

But for the sake of discussion, what is/was your motivation to retire early?


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## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> Me... I'm staying in - for now
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting story! ...and reading you posts, I have impression that you guys never gonna retire...at least in next 25-30 years
Click to expand...

My husband for sure - he said that even if we moved to Belize or something similar and he couldn't work remotely, he'd be teaching "computers" part time to local kids for free  I'm more of a flake, and get bored easily - so need changes every few years


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Oldpro - I am not trying to insult or belittle you or what you have done with your life either. 
But I find your posts to be flaccid. They are a one dimensional, ‘broken record’ theme. 
A person can find lots of useful and practical blogs if their interest is early retirement in the extreme. If that is what they are looking for in your CMF posts they won’t find much of substance. 
Posts like your last one above meet the definition of an internet troll.


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## janus10

I don't know if I am atypical, but I wouldn't define the graduation to being a winner to a loser the moment when one retires, even if it is uncharacteristically early. I think if someone is able to do what they want without hurting others and not denying support to those that they should, then they are a winner.

While I could retire now, leaving a very well paying job with perks of international travel and working from home, I wouldn't be happy because of the impact on my family. They have made enough sacrifices to allow me to travel that I have no problem honouring my commitment to stay put for another few years.


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## avrex

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> A person can find lots of useful and practical blogs if their interest is early retirement in the extreme. If that is what they are looking for in your CMF posts they won’t find much of substance.


I'm starting to realize this. 

One of the reasons that I created this thread called _"Admit it. You don't like work. The solution. Plan to Retire Early"_, was to see if there where *any other people* who thought along the same lines as me. Very briefly those thoughts were...
- I have other interests that I would like to have more time to be able to pursue, that I find are much more interesting than my job.
- My goal is to retire as early as possible in order to devote more time to pursue those interests.

The responses to this thread so far indicate that *there are very few people in the CMF forum who are interested in early retirement* (say before the age of 65).

That's ok. It just shows that we are all different in our interests/priorities/wants.
I'm happy for those that love their job.

When I eventually reach financial independence, I will be happier than I am today, because I will be able to fully pursue those things that truly interest me.


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## cainvest

avrex said:


> When I eventually reach financial independence, I will be happier than I am today, because I will be able to fully pursue those things that truly interest me.


I think reaching a level of financial independence (FI) can change one's outlook on life, whether retired, semi-retired or still working. It opens the door to many possibilities and removes the feeling of being "stuck" somewhere. IMO there are many levels of FI which depend on your lifestyle, goals, wants and of course needs. The most basic level just includes needs, to be able to provide for an existence and the other levels go up from there.


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## janus10

avrex said:


> The responses to this thread so far indicate that *there are very few people in the CMF forum who are interested in early retirement* (say before the age of 65).


Funny, but I got the opposite impression looking at it through my own bias. 

My plan would be when I turn 53'ish. Just need that last little bird to leave the nest and get safely established. She starts her post college career this month! 

And, one more is away at university with target graduation in one year, three weeks from now.


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## OldPro

"When I think about what I'd rather do if I didn't have to go to work - I can't think of anything really interesting and exciting that would inspire me to spend the rest of my life on a very tight budget."

If you can' think of anything more interesting than work, all I can say is a feel very, very sorry for you. As for a very tight budget, who said anything about that? Someone might retire at 30 with a $100k income stream in place. They wouldn't be the first by a long shot. Don't PRESUME things that were not written.

"A person can find lots of useful and practical blogs if their interest is early retirement in the extreme."

Again, where did you read 'extreme' in anything I have written? My current income is $65k a year. We own our home unlike the 25% of Canadians who go into their retirement still having a mortgage to pay. We vacation in Europe or anywhere else we choose to. We are doing a $25k bathroom reno later this year. That is hardly the average of someone posting on the Early Retirement Extreme forum. Does it sound to you like we are suffering in some way by having retired earlier than most? 

I'm not trolling, I'm telling it like it is. Does every post someone does not agree with automatically become a troll? Is it necessary to try and inject words like 'extreme' to try and dismiss something you don't want to hear?

Janus, there are many kinds of winners and losers. Mother Theresa was a winner. But when it comes to choosing between the working class and the leisure class it's quite clear which is preferable and therefore the winner.

As for, "While I could retire now, leaving a very well paying job with perks of international travel and working from home, I wouldn't be happy because of the impact on my family. They have made enough sacrifices to allow me to travel that I have no problem honouring my commitment to stay put for another few years.", what is that all about?

You think international business travel is a perk? I used to spend every second week somewhere else. Airport, tax, hotel, taxi, meeting, taxi, dinner, taxi, hotel, taxi, airport, taxi, home. You call that a 'perk'? I call it something much less flattering. International travel or any business travel is rarely a 'perk', it's unpaid work time. Do you get paid for 24 hours by the hour when you travel? No, then it is unpaid work time. Hardly a perk.

Working from home a 'perk'? Yet another, you gotta be kidding. Work is work, wherever you do it. But wait, the system tells us that if you have the big corner office on the top floor of a highrise office building with a view over the city, hey, you've made it to the big time. Since everyone can't have that though, let's tell the lower level peons that working from home is a 'perk'. They'll buy that story right.

What 'impact on your family'? Are you saying because you would have less income, it would negatively affect them? I can understand that at least. I'm not suggesting anyone leave before their kids finish school you know. But I also draw a line. It's at around age 25. After that, they're on their own no matter what. It's called being an adult. If they're still around, kick them out.

What 'sacrifices' did your family make to allow you to travel? Your business travel? Or do you vacation alone, is that what you are saying? Even if you do, are they going without a roof over their head or food on the table so you can do so? What sacrifices? That answer I'd love to hear. If it's gonna be, 'they sacrifice family time with me so that I can enjoy the 'perk' of international travel, I'm gonna start laughing though. Just warning you. 

Avrex, what you may also be realizing is that anyone planning to retire at 55, 60, 65, does not want to hear that someone was better at it and retired at 35 or 45.

Cainvest, that is absolutely true. You reach a point where you know you can say at any time, 'stick your job'. That provides huge freedom. I know from my own experience that in my last year of work, things that used to bother me a fair bit, like small thinking, stopped bothering me. Someone could continue working and enjoy that feeling. But the question is why would they want to? Being free to do whatever you want each day is far more enjoyable. 

When you talk about 'levels', it has been spelled out for a long time now. A guy named Maslov laid them out. We get the first two from working. Physiological and Safety. The third, Love/belonging, we get from people. No work required so why continue to work if you have achieved enough FI to not need to work anymore? Instead move on to satisfying the higher needs. In fact, most people never get past the first three.

The fourth need, Esteem, is often confused with 'position'. Many people connect their self-esteem to their 'position'. As I've said before, forced to retire they feel they are a 'nobody'. Esteem does NOT require someone to be working. So why keep working if you don't need to for the first 2 needs.

The fith need, Self-Actualization is one that few ever reach. It's about achieving to your full potential. But 'achieving' does not refer to your job. So no work required yet again and so why work if you don't need to? Maslov in fact came up with a 6th need later on saying his 5th was flawed. In the 6th he said, "The self only finds its actualization in giving itself to some higher goal outside oneself, in altruism and spirituality." 

I would accept unconditionally that Mother Theresa reach that level. I don't know if there are many others I would think have. I certainly haven't. I know I've made it through the first two working and 3&4 without needing to work.


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## Moneytoo

OldPro said:


> If you can' think of anything more interesting than work, all I can say is a feel very, very sorry for you. As for a very tight budget, who said anything about that? Someone might retire at 30 with a $100k income stream in place. They wouldn't be the first by a long shot. *Don't PRESUME things that were not written.*


Sigh... From*http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/29/how-much-do-i-need-for-retirement:

"Without undue risk, and as long as you have skills that can be used to earn money eventually in the future (hint: you do), I can even advocate an SWR of 5%. *In other words, get your expenses down to $25k, and you can quit your job on $500k or less.*"

At the moment, our investment portfolio is a bit more than 300K. With our current incomes, we can save and invest 100K+ a year while we both work. So don't feel sorry for me, I would be in a much worse position if I wanted to do something else without having the means to do it


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## gibor365

avrex said:


> I
> I enjoy reading Mr. Money Mustache and it's forum community of early retirees.
> He's also a proponent of getting out of the rat race early and enjoying a sensible life.
> Here's an interview article with the Globe and Mail. How to retire at age 30 (and stay retired)


from interview


> It’s possible for a family of four to live an astoundingly good life on about $30,000 per year in Canada


Is anyone really thinks that family of 4 can live "astoundingly good life" on 30K?! Probably everyone understands "astoundingly good life" differently.... imho, just for normal, modest living you need at least 100K for family of 4 (assuming you don't have any debt at all)


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## gibor365

> At the moment, our investment portfolio is a bit more than 300K. With our current incomes, we can save and invest 100K+ a year


 I don't get this math  If you can save 100+K annually , why your portfolio only 300K (and this is during 5 years of bull market)?
btw, how much (in %) you save from your net income?


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## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> I don't get this math  If you can save 100+K annually , why your portfolio only 300K (and this is during 5 years of bull market)?
> btw, how much (in %) you save from your net income?


This time last year it was only my salary and we had ~200K in two RRSPs (mostly cash as we cashed out group RRSPs in 2008 when moving them to TD DI, so we missed both the crash and the bull market :stupid So we're catching up now - hopefully we'll have at least 5 years of double income, saving 40-60% of the net 

PS btw, in 2008, I had more interesting things to do than working, investing and planning early retirement lol


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## james4beach

gibor said:


> Is anyone really thinks that family of 4 can live "astoundingly good life" on 30K?! Probably everyone understands "astoundingly good life" differently....


As a thrifty grad student, I lived on as little as 24K a year (adjusted to today's dollars). I did own a car, but I was _really_ careful with money. I built my own bed and had some furniture made of cardboard boxes.

So it's not possible for a FAMILY ... let alone two people ... to live on 30K. Not possible.

In fact given my experience, I'd say your baseline Canadian living (Ontario, anyway) is 24K, which requires a gross income of 28K. Anything below that I'd say you're at risk of living in poverty. Thus it seems to me that even a best case scenario CPP + OAS together ... assuming you get the maximums ... just tickles the ege of living in poverty.


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## janus10

C'mon OldPro, if you really have come here to shake people's trees and cause them to honestly reflect on what is driving them, you're going to need to give us something fresh and substantive. If you want some serious debate at least start with more interesting and diverse premises.

I like challenging status quo thinking and examining convention. But, please try to provide frames of reference that go beyond your own experience, as wonderful and expansive as I'm sure it is. It's much more engaging and interesting playing chess rather than tic tac toe.

Hey, if nothing else, at least I've amused you to the point of laughter. I'll share a secret with you - I enjoy making people laugh. 

I sense that you are intelligent enough to be able to have a discussion without attacking the messenger, but rather the message. Of course it may be your conscious tactic to at least get a response from people. 

I take no offence in any comments you've directed at me, but in my opinion, you've been unapologetically judgemental to others here. The evidence would suggest that you're not likely to pull any punches unless it suits you.

It really doesn't matter to me if you change your approach on these boards. I'll continue to look for a nugget of wisdom in your messages and acknowledge if I find one that helps me.


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## cainvest

OldPro said:


> You reach a point where you know you can say at any time, 'stick your job'. That provides huge freedom. I know from my own experience that in my last year of work, things that used to bother me a fair bit, like small thinking, stopped bothering me. Someone could continue working and enjoy that feeling. But the question is why would they want to? Being free to do whatever you want each day is far more enjoyable.


Yup, its a good place to be ... you know where the work door is and its available to use at any time if you want to walk away from it all.

I'm pretty sure I've tried to explain this before but lets try once more on the "why would I want to stay at work rather than be free to do what you want each day" theme. Disclaimer: Now I know some people hate boundaries, be it time, location and/or being told what to do so this likely won't make sense to those whom I'll call the "anti-workplace" types. Now just imagine for a minute that you have a hobby/interest that you really like do in retirement. One day, while doing said interest, someone comes up to you and says "Hey, keep doing what you're doing and I'll pay you for it and I'll give you free stuff to help with your intertest". So in this case, why would anyone say no to that? My work actually started off as a hobby, I spent countless hours learning and having fun all at my own cost, then the day came when companies would pay me to do my hobby and of course I said yes. 

Hopefully that explains it well enough and for me it's a win-win but I understand that for others leaving work and being completely "free" in retirement is the goal.



OldPro said:


> When you talk about 'levels', it has been spelled out for a long time now. A guy named Maslov laid them out.


Actually I was speaking about financial levels and everyone will have different "wants" in retirement, some requiring money, some not. These are by no means set in store, some may only have one level while others may have 2, 3 or 4 ... they are self set boundaries. So if you have only enough money for the basics, food, shelter, etc ... that'll be the first level. The next level may allow one to purse their one or more interests and live within a comfortable budget, probably what most would consider a typical retirement. The next higher level may be complete financial freedom, with little or no concern about a budget.


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## gibor365

james4beach said:


> As a thrifty grad student, I lived on as little as 24K a year (adjusted to today's dollars). I did own a car, but I was _really_ careful with money. I built my own bed and had some furniture made of cardboard boxes.
> 
> So it's not possible for a FAMILY ... let alone two people ... to live on 30K. Not possible.
> 
> In fact given my experience, I'd say your baseline Canadian living (Ontario, anyway) is 24K, which requires a gross income of 28K. Anything below that I'd say you're at risk of living in poverty. Thus it seems to me that even a best case scenario CPP + OAS together ... assuming you get the maximums ... just tickles the ege of living in poverty.


Possibly we could've survive with 25K income somewhere in North Bay , ride bicycle everywhere, save of food etc, but I wouldn't call it "astoundingly good life" 
imho, to live comfortable live, for couple, you need at least 65-75K annual income after taxes...
My view on comfortable retirement include international long term travel and not saving every penny....


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## avrex

cainvest said:


> Now just imagine for a minute that you have a hobby/interest that you really like do in retirement. One day, while doing said interest, someone comes up to you and says "Hey, keep doing what you're doing and I'll pay you for it and I'll give you free stuff to help with your intertest". So in this case, why would anyone say no to that? My work actually started off as a hobby, I spent countless hours learning and having fun all at my own cost, then the day came when companies would pay me to do my hobby and of course I said yes.


@cainvest, that is awesome! 
I'm very happy that you were able to turn that dream into reality. great work.


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## Beaver101

> *Originally Posted by cainvest*
> 
> Now just imagine for a minute that you have a hobby/interest that you really like do in retirement. One day, while doing said interest, someone comes up to you and says "Hey, keep doing what you're doing and I'll pay you for it and I'll give you free stuff to help with your intertest". So in this case, why would anyone say no to that? My work actually started off as a hobby, I spent countless hours learning and having fun all at my own cost, then the day came when companies would pay me to do my hobby and of course I said yes.





avrex said:


> @cainvest, that is awesome!
> I'm very happy that you were able to turn that dream into reality. great work.


... I agree on this - so cainvest, care to share the secret-hobby? :biggrin:


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## OldPro

Gibor, a family of 4 can live a good life on $30k (net) a year if they choose to. But you have to qualify how that is done and what it includes/doesn't include. For example, he specifically states in the interview that the number does NOT include any mortgage or rent payment. He owns his house. That is usually the single largest monthly payment anyone has. If you read and TAKE IN all he says in the interview, some other things should pop out that indicate HOW a family can live well on $30k. Look at what he has to say about buying cars. How does his take on it compare to your own reality?

I read people's lists of what they expect their expenses in retirement to be here on this forum and you see things like car payments or golf club memberships, $200 a month for dining out, etc. The point being people confuse a need and a want. They want a new car every couple of years, they want a big house. If I tell you that no one should be buying a house that costs more than 2.5 times their annual income, how does that compare to your own reality? 

Our society tells us that we should EXPECT and accept as normal, much more than we need. It is very hard for most people to tell the difference between a need and a want. You may think it is impossible for a family of 4 to live a good life and be happy on an income of $30k today but thinking it doesn't mean you are right. In fact, you are wrong. Just one family doing so and happy will prove you wrong. What you cannot do is live on $30k without changing your VALUE systems.

A perfect example is cellphones. What is your monthly cellphone bill per person and per family if applicable? The average Canadian is paying around $67 per month for their cellphone. I pay $10 and my wife pays the same. That's $800 annually vs. $120 per phone. Now figure out how much capital you must have invested to generate that difference of $680 per year. At 3% return, you must have $22.6k invested per phone. Just to pay for one phone! Does a family of 4 living on $30k a year pay $67 per month each for a cellphone do you think? Obviously not. Do you think they also pay for a landline on top of that. I doubt it. They don't need a landline if they have a cellphone. 

When we moved to Canada in 2006, we bought 2 new cellphones for $50 each with $10 talk time included on Pay as you Go. I'm still using that same phone today and my wife has a newer one as her first one just quit one day, her new one also cost $59. How many cellphones have you and your family gone through since 2006 and how much have you spent on them in that time? I've spent $120 a year every year. No more, no less, every year for 9 years. Try telling me why you NEED to spend more on a cellphone than I do. You talk on yours, I talk on mine.

As the saying goes, 'you can't see there from here' and everyone saying you can't live on $30k simply THINKS they can see there from where they are now. The fact is you can't see it because you are where you are in terms of what you accept as normal and acceptable. Cellphones are just one EXAMPLE of how people can change their value system to need less money. No one is saying, you can't own a cellphone, but you can spend less to have one. I'd be curious to hear if there is one naysayer posting here who only spends $10 a month on their cellphone.

Cainvest, you are correct when you say, "Actually I was speaking about financial levels and everyone will have different "wants" in retirement, some requiring money, some not." But those are WANTS, not NEEDS. You need food, shelter and clothing. You do not NEED to eat steak and caviar every day, live in a 3000 Sq.Ft. house and wear designer clothing that you buy new every year. You may WANT things like that but you will pay a price to get them. That price is your LIFE. 

Look at the cellphone numbers I gave above. How many days/months out of your life will you have to work to save $22.6k to invest and pay for that phone? That is the true cost of the phone, time out of your life. So the question becomes which do you value more? Your phone or your life? Now tell me that you NEED that phone. That's the message in the book Your Money or Your Life by Joe Dominguez. Everything you spend money on costs you time out of your life. So instead of looking at costs in terms of money, look at them in terms of how much time they cost you. Time cannot be banked, when it's gone it's gone and you have less of it left every day.


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## Moneytoo

Will ask my husband to download this movie (don't remember most of it, but remember that I liked it ):

"Twenty-something Richard travels to Thailand and finds himself in possession of a strange map. Rumours state that it leads to a solitary beach paradise, a tropical bliss - excited and intrigued, he sets out to find it."

(c) The Beach (2000)


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## 1980z28

When I was 16 I repair my bicycles

When I was 18 I repaired my car

So for 37 years I have repaired a lot of cars,trucks and internal combustion engines

My hobby turn in a lot cash(beer)from friends and employers(4),everyone owns a car and it will fail,that is where I come in,family and friends always want a deal

My input cost on my own vehicles is small as I do my own repairs,car purchases come from customers and dealer auctions at really good prices ,,

So I will retire at 56 and have built a very large 2 story garage on 126 acres of property for retirement in two years, that is my hobby,did I say I love to repair cars and build them,also am very big into 2 channel Hi-End audio(vinyl)that I buy and sell in my spare time,I have 4 days of each week,also to trade and invest,run 7 to 10k on my days of work,hope to live until 100+years,your mental and physical health is very important 

So good so far,there are time that I might hate working on engines in little cars,no room,at my age there is arthritis


----------



## cainvest

avrex said:


> @cainvest, that is awesome!
> I'm very happy that you were able to turn that dream into reality. great work.


Thanks avrex, it kind of blurs the line between working and retirement doesn't it.



Beaver101 said:


> ... I agree on this - so cainvest, care to share the secret-hobby? :biggrin:


Oh its nothing glamorous, just a technology job like many others but it provides me with continuous puzzles to solve and keeps me entertained. 
On a similiar note, a friend of mine who is also in the tech field, travels the world working when he wants. As long as he gets an internet connection every week or so he's free to go whatever ... last I checked he's in South America right now then off to the philippines later this year.


----------



## cainvest

OldPro said:


> Cainvest, you are correct when you say, "Actually I was speaking about financial levels and everyone will have different "wants" in retirement, some requiring money, some not." But those are WANTS, not NEEDS. You need food, shelter and clothing. You do not NEED to eat steak and caviar every day, live in a 3000 Sq.Ft. house and wear designer clothing that you buy new every year. You may WANT things like that but you will pay a price to get them. That price is your LIFE.


Exactly OldPro, the first level just covers one's basic NEEDS and all levels above that add in WANTS.


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## Moneytoo

cainvest said:


> Exactly OldPro, the first level just covers one's basic NEEDS and all levels above that add in WANTS.


But one shouldn't WANT the WANTs, only NEED the NEEDs! lol


----------



## gibor365

> My hobby turn in a lot cash(beer)from friends and employers(4),everyone owns a car and it will fail,that is where I come in,family and friends always want a deal


Too bad you don't live in GTA  I'd be your client...


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## Beaver101

cainvest said:


> Oh its nothing glamorous, just a technology job like many others but it provides me with continuous puzzles to solve and keeps me entertained.
> .


 ...sounds like CMF. :biggrin:


----------



## gibor365

> Gibor, a family of 4 can live a good life on $30k (net) a year if they choose to. But you have to qualify how that is done and what it includes/doesn't include. For example, he specifically states in the interview that the number does NOT include any mortgage or rent payment. He owns his house. That is usually the single largest monthly payment anyone has. If you read and TAKE IN all he says in the interview, some other things should pop out that indicate HOW a family can live well on $30k. Look at what he has to say about buying cars. How does his take on it compare to your own reality?


He can say whatever he wants, I just don't agree with him 
I'm not idiot and read all what he 's saying.... We don't have any mortgage (debt at all ) for 10 years.... I also read what he tells about the cars, and we have 2 cars 2006 and 2009 and not planning to buy a new one.... To live in Canada without cars... it's ridiculous (you can perfectly live without car in Europe)... you won't be able even to go to any provincional or reginal park around... we very very rare dine out (maybe couple of times per year), we don't play golf , don't have cottage or boat, don't have cable TV(just don't need it), I have my cellphone only 2 years (after I cut landline), don't do any home renovations, don't buy jewerly or fancy clothes and don't play casino ...
Except utilities and property tax, we spend money on international travel (2-3 times per year ), recreation (figure skating, gym and hockey) and food. ... We're family of 4 and we spend 100K -115K annually...
As I said, theoretically, you can live on 30K, but you need move to North Bay or similar place, not to have car, shop in Goodwill and eat meat once per month . Sorry, but to live such life , I;d rather to stay in CCCP


----------



## 1980z28

Did we get of track from the OP

Maybe I should read a little more before I post

I plan on not needing much income at all and live very well


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> As I said, theoretically, you can live on 30K, but you need move to North Bay or similar place, not to have car, shop in Goodwill and eat meat once per month . Sorry, but to live such life , I;d rather to stay in CCCP


There's no CCCP anymore, and nobody lives like that there by choice, but there's a closer alternative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish :biggrin:


----------



## cainvest

Beaver101 said:


> ...sounds like CMF. :biggrin:


lol, yes ....


----------



## gibor365

Moneytoo said:


> There's no CCCP anymore, and nobody lives like that there by choice, but there's a closer alternative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish :biggrin:


But still I believe that there are small towns where fanilies live "comfortable" with 3-5K annual income (in US$) 

But here... ?! If you retired, you don't have ane medical benefits...and does OldPro knows how much it cost to have braces for kids, implants, even simple X-ray?! Or maybe you don't need teeth if anyway you cannor afford to eat meat?! What 25-30K you are talking about?! And I;m pretty sure owner of mentoined blog gets much more, only on ads on his blogs he gets decent amount of cash... (Dividend Matra blog guy is publishing how much he gets)


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> What 25-30K you are talking about?! And I;m pretty sure owner of mentoined blog gets much more, only on ads on his blogs he gets decent amount of cash... (Dividend Matra blog guy is publishing how much he gets)


One of the opinions: "Mr Money Mustache has been enjoying retirement from the 9 to 5 since he was 30. But he is monetizing his blog and working at other projects to generate income, so it’s not a “rocking chair” retirement. His main point is that most live a life of excess and that simple changes can open the door to financial freedom. For instance, that Caddy Escalade you buy today could be adding 4 years to your working life. Is it worth it? Our family is almost free and we are still in our 30s with a paid off house, zero debt. The arguments are not for those who enjoy work and find it’s the best use of their limited time. They apply to those who value freedom above all."

I can see how it's a great idea for a young guy who wants to live in the basement and play games 24/7 as "a more interesting thing than working", but, like to you, to me "financial freedom" means not living on a budget, constantly calculating how much every purchase adds to my working life


----------



## gibor365

> I can see how it's a great idea for a young guy who wants to live in the basement and play games 24/7 as "a more interesting thing than working", but, like to you, to me "financial freedom" means not living on a budget, constantly calculating how much every purchase adds to my working life


Here is a point! He's talking about family of 4! Poor kids.... living in family that counting every penny . It's different from wierdo playing PS4 games 24/7 in basement....
.. Even in public school other kids will be laughing on them.... like your dad riding bicycle?! Your parent cannot afford our annual trip?!
imho, owner just monetisizing his blog.... it's very appealing to many folks...."hell, stop working... your family can live perfectly on 25K per year!!!", and more folks visiting his blog, more money he gets from ads! This guy is smart!
Moneytoo, maybe we need to create blog how you can retire at age of 25 with 5K annual income! .... and we can truly retire....


----------



## nathan79

gibor said:


> Except utilities and property tax, we spend money on international travel (2-3 times per year ), recreation (figure skating, gym and hockey) and food. ... We're family of 4 and we spend 100K -115K annually...


Jeez... you must be spending 50K on travel and recreation. I'm having trouble figuring out what your doing with the rest of it.

The average household income in Canada is about 70K, but you think it costs 100K+ for an average family to live? I guess the average family is in living poverty by your estimates.

It's not really that difficult for a small family to live on 30K net. It may not be such a comfortable life for a family of four, but it's enough for a couple or even a family with one kid. I speak from experience.

Here's how it's done..

- No pricy vacations. Either learn how to travel cheaply or stick closer to home. Drive and explore your own province rather than fly to destinations.
- Never buy new cars (there's no need to spend more than a few K for a decent reliable car)
- No "renos" and other costly home items (people waste so much money on this stuff). Fix what needs fixing and don't worry about your house being "up to date"
- Wear basic, durable clothes - forget about trends.
- No expensive cellphone contract (a cheap prepaid plan is ok)
- Limit consumer items like electronics (I grew up with cable TV and that's about it. If I wanted video games I had to buy them myself or wait for X-mas). Nowadays you don't even need cable; Netflix or library is good enough for entertainment.
- Learn basic DIY so you can handle most repairs yourself, especially car repairs, plumbing, etc. Even simple knowledge can save you a few hundred $ on a service call for stuff around the house.

There's a lot more but it's really all about priorities and resourcefulness, and realizing that having the newest gadgets, fancy clothes/house really doesn't increase satisfaction with life.


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> Moneytoo, maybe we need to create blog how you can retire at age of 25 with 5K annual income! .... and we can truly retire....


That was actually my husband's first reaction (from the old joke): "A book how to get rich. Step 1: buy this book" lol

I was thinking that maybe you can live in prison for 5K, but nope - here're some old numbers, from 2008:

"Prisons cost taxpayers more than $32 billion a year. *Every year that an inmate spends in prison costs $22,000*. An individual sentenced to five years for a $300 theft costs the public more than $100,000. The cost of a life term averages $1.5 million."

Russian village it is then...


----------



## Daniel A.

I've spent a fair bit of time traveling around small towns since retiring and there is no reason a family of four couldn't live well on 30K.

Housing cost are a fraction of big cities,people have more time to plan meals without all the extra distractions, many take advantage of hunting season to fill the freezer.
In BC many of these small communities are near lakes with the best fishing anywhere.
Car insurance is cheaper and driving distance is much shorter around town without traffic. 

gibor a question you have minimum fixed expenses yet spend 10 K a month ? I know many do but that is far higher than the average Canadian, actually most people have less than 60 K annual income.


----------



## Moneytoo

@gibor, and you were wondering what I was gonna do with 250K in retirement - now others are wondering what you do with less than half lol

I'll need to calculate our yearly expenses one of these days (was so happy not having to do it for years, but now curious how much "we have enough" is... )


----------



## My Own Advisor

Moneytoo said:


> Well I guess we both think that investing in stocks to get 4% or more is not really safe, and the only truly safe investments (bonds and GICs) would yield less than our current combined income, and when we were making 200K before taxes - we somehow managed to spend it all (even though our mortgage payments weren't that high since we bought our house under 300K almost 20 years ago) Frankly, I have no clue where did the money go, and now that we make more, save about half of our earnings and still maintain almost the same lifestyle, I thought we were doing great - but living on 25-30K that were quoted by MMM sounded to me as unachievable as saving 10M lol
> 
> Disclaimer: our current portfolio is mostly equities with no bonds, so we're not trying to invest super-safely (and 10M invested in bonds was just our understanding of "never having to *worry* about money )


@MoneyToo,

$10 M is a crazy large portfolio. You couldn't live off less??

Even $2 M invested in a mix of dividend-oriented ETFs (and no bonds) would churn out close to $80,000 per year to live from. With no debt, that's spending close to $5k per month after-tax, and never touching the capital.

That's not including CPP, OAS or anything else. 

I dunno, I think that's a very healthy retirement fund ($2 M) but if you need $10 M who am I to argue?

Also...interesting thread folks.....reading all the comments and catching up. This stuff reminds me that personal finance is VERY personal and no two people are the same. 

On the subject of toys and cell phones and things, it was interesting to read OldPro's take.

Personally, I like being able to surf the net on my cell phone, so my $50 tax included cell phone bill is worth it for that.
As for nice cars or car payments, I don't value those things. This is why I own a 15-year-old car and will drive it for as long as I possibly can.

You can live on less, as OldPro suggests, and I would agree you really need to change what you VALUE to do so.

I have to finish Your Money Your Life book. I've been putting it off in favour of other books on my nightstand.


----------



## Moneytoo

My Own Advisor said:


> @MoneyToo,
> 
> $10 M is a crazy large portfolio. You couldn't live off less??


Well of course we can (and will have to ) - it was just the number that someone who never really thought about retirement came up with (as an excuse why we need to keep working forever if you wish lol) As I read later there, most "beginners" (and even advisers) usually overestimate retirement needs and wants 

_"The answers you get to this question vary widely. Financial beginners (about 95% of the population) tend to randomly just throw out a number between 5-100 million dollars. Financial advisers who aren’t Mustachians will tell you that it depends on your pre-retirement income, (with the implicit assumption that you are spending most of what you earn) and the end answer will be somewhere between 2-10 million."_


----------



## gibor365

Daniel A. said:


> I've spent a fair bit of time traveling around small towns since retiring and there is no reason a family of four couldn't live well on 30K.
> 
> .


Oh, yeah! and them you read that "_Three-quarters of Canadians polled are in debt and owe $16,000 on average_... and I'm sure that us and Moneytoo's family in othef 1/4 

_I'll need to calculate our yearly expenses one of these days _ I did it first time this year... and our expenses in 2014 were 106K (without buying any fancy stuff)... Q1 of 2015 -> spendings 25K, considering that in summer we're going 2 weeks South-West France vacation it will be not less than 2014..


> Housing cost are a fraction of big cities


 don't know ... we pay around $4,000 property tax for pretty small house.... last month $152 gas, hydro - $307 (for 2 month) + water + car insurance.... what 30K you guys talking about?! Only for figure skating we pay maybe 10K annually for my daughter and wife....

Yes. in retirement we'll need less, as kids will live independently, we won't need 2 cars, it will be cheaper to go on vacations...so I estimate we'll need maybe 65-75K annual income (it's actually what OldPro has)....
but 30K for family of 4?! give me a break... this is poverty... again...do you know how much cost braces for a kid?!


> Either learn how to travel cheaply or stick closer to home.


 believe me we know how totravel cheaply...we mostly rent appartments with full kitchen and don't spend too much on restarurants....


> Drive and explore your own province rather than fly to destinations


 I also can explore my backyard  ... and buy frozen food in Food Basic ....


----------



## My Own Advisor

Thanks for the MMM link, I recall reading that post.

I figure $1M portfolio, +pensions, +government programs, and a 100% must of absolutely no-debt will do it for us. This is our math.


----------



## Daniel A.

gibor said:


> Oh, yeah! and them you read that "_Three-quarters of Canadians polled are in debt and owe $16,000 on average_... and I'm sure that us and Moneytoo's family in othef 1/4
> 
> _I'll need to calculate our yearly expenses one of these days _ I did it first time this year... and our expenses in 2014 were 106K (without buying any fancy stuff)... Q1 of 2015 -> spendings 25K, considering that in summer we're going 2 weeks South-West France vacation it will be not less than 2014..
> don't know ... we pay around $4,000 property tax for pretty small house.... last month $152 gas, hydro - $307 (for 2 month) + water + car insurance.... what 30K you guys talking about?! Only for figure skating we pay maybe 10K annually for my daughter and wife....
> 
> Yes. in retirement we'll need less, as kids will live independently, we won't need 2 cars, it will be cheaper to go on vacations...so I estimate we'll need maybe 65-75K annual income (it's actually what OldPro has)....
> but 30K for family of 4?! give me a break... this is poverty... again...do you know how much cost braces for a kid?!


Both of my kids did have braces yes I know what they cost about 6000.00 per kid.
Hydro 1000 square foot place I live in 40.00 a month, Gas 45.00 a month in winter here on the coast,water is free here, car insurance both cars 200.00 a month,motorcycle 700.00 per year. Property tax 750.00 a year. Oh yes I also spend most winters in Mexico laying in the sun.


----------



## Moneytoo

Damn - there goes our cheap Belize early retirement! 

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...rism-resort-on-island-off-the-coast-of-belize


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## gibor365

Daniel A. said:


> Both of my kids did have braces yes I know what they cost about 6000.00 per kid.
> Hydro 1000 square foot place I live in 40.00 a month, Gas 45.00 a month in winter here on the coast,water is free here, car insurance both cars 200.00 a month,motorcycle 700.00 per year. Property tax 750.00 a year. Oh yes I also spend most winters in Mexico laying in the sun.


OK, so if you doing braces for 1 kid, you spend right away 20% of 30K annual income... and if somebody in family need other dental expenses? or your wife needs birth control pills? or you need to buy antibiotics? -> all this essential stuff is extremely expensive in Canada...
My mother is 70 y.o., lives in subsidized housing, free drugs, no car,no cable TV, she buys only essential food, clothes... we pay her dental, presto (transportation), cell, trips to my brother in Europe, give her couple of thousands of cash every year etc... stil she spends about 12-13K annually... 
In prison government spends 22K annually on every prisoner.... and you are talking about 30K income for family of 4 ?!
It will be not life, but survival.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Ah crap. I want to go to Belize as well!


----------



## gibor365

Moneytoo said:


> Damn - there goes our cheap Belize early retirement!
> 
> http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...rism-resort-on-island-off-the-coast-of-belize


No worries! Belize has 250 islands...

btw, did you travel there?! Looks interesting....


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> No worries! Belize has 250 islands...
> 
> btw, did you travel there?! Looks interesting....


And Hollywood has even more celebrities... lol

We just discovered it recently (from the HGTV "Island Life" I think program - a US couple was buying a house there), and both got curious enough to think that we should go there and explore  But maybe next year as this year we promised our daughter to go to Mexico...


----------



## gibor365

Moneytoo said:


> And Hollywood has even more celebrities... lol
> 
> We just discovered it recently (from the HGTV "Island Life" I think program - a US couple was buying a house there), and both got curious enough to think that we should go there and explore  But maybe next year as this year we promised our daughter to go to Mexico...


Mexico is a junk  We've been there twice: Bahia and Las Velas and din't like it at all... never again


----------



## Eder

gibor said:


> Mexico is a junk  We've been there twice: Bahia and Las Velas and din't like it at all... never again



You are doing it wrong...next time you go drive rather than fly. Real Mexico is anywhere without too many gringos.


----------



## gibor365

Eder said:


> You are doing it wrong...next time you go drive rather than fly. Real Mexico is anywhere without too many gringos.


Maybe... but we enjoyed Cuba, Grenada, Dominican much more.... ioho, Mexico is the worst hot destination


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> Q1 of 2015 -> spendings 25K, considering that in summer we're going 2 weeks South-West France vacation it will be not less than 2014..


It's not as easy as I thought, took us more than an hour to figure out the numbers for 3 months! So, with no major purchases, but with some "extras", in Q1 of 2015 we spent 18K (which is in line with my husband's estimate that *we "need" ~5K a month as a minimum* - for the household of 5 plus the cat )

We also invested $33,350 during the same time period, and I gave up trying to figure out how much we saved (as we just opened PT e-savings account and transferred the "extra cash" from last year and this year's income tax return there) - no way I can do a yearly math unless I do debit/credit every month... 

Well, one thing for sure - need to keep saving and investing, but don't want to commit to a more frugal lifestyle just yet


----------



## gibor365

> So, with no major purchases, but with some "extras", in Q1 of 2015 we spent 18K


 our 25K also include some extras: trip to Jamaica 4K, air tickets to France + car rental + 1 hotel payment in Sarlat , and air ticket to mother-in-low from Israel... so our spendings are pretty close


----------



## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> our 25K also include some extras: trip to Jamaica 4K, air tickets to France + car rental + 1 hotel payment in Sarlat , and air ticket to mother-in-low from Israel... so our spendings are pretty close


Oh yeah, we usually go on vacations mid-summer and mid-December, plus going out more when it's warmer, so we spend the least during the 1st quarter - and it's still way above "the bare minimum" quoted by MMM... But still it was a good exercise - thank you!


----------



## gibor365

> we usually go on vacations mid-summer and mid-December


 we're the same + mid-spring ..... flying tomorrow


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## Moneytoo

gibor said:


> we're the same + mid-spring ..... flying tomorrow


To Jamaica I believe (saw it in another thread) - have a great time!


----------



## gibor365

Moneytoo said:


> To Jamaica I believe (saw it in another thread) - have a great time!


Spasibo


----------



## avrex

....so anyway... getting back on topic...

Does anybody else here want to retire early (before 65) due to the fact that they have other interests/activities (that they find more interesting than work) that they would rather pursue.


----------



## birdman

Avrex, I enjoyed my work and had a good well paying job and was planning on retiring at age 60. My wife did not work outside the home. In any event, the opportunity came up to retire at age 55 and my projections showed we had more income than required to live the lifestyle we wished. So, I pulled the plug and retired and while my wife was concerned that despite my wide range of interests my retirement may cramp her style in that I may not have enough to do. Clearly, this was not the case and almost 15 yrs later life is great. I have always been athletic and also quite handy around the home and decided to start competing nationally and beyond in Masters badminton which I had played all my life and competed in when younger. We travel regularly around the province on a tournament circuit and every year end up at the Nationals wherever in the country that may be. Great people, good fun, and a superb feeling if you get to win a national event or compete in a foreign country in the world championships. Of course, this activity also requires lots of practice and conditioning. Certainly beats working for a living.
We also have a small ski condo and ski 3 days a week in the winter and have the maintenance on a larger home on a large landscaped lot. To this I also add freshwater and saltwater fishing, hunting, some rv travel and trips when we want to warm climates for a week or so and the occasional cruise or extended vacation for about a month. We both absolutely love our retirement and lifestyle and am so fortunate in being able to retire early and are still in good health to enjoy our busy lifestyle. 
The only problem is that we can't fit everything in during Jan to March due to conflicts (skiing, badminton, and going south for an extended vacation) but its a good problem to have. 
My conclusion is that early retirement is the only way to go provided you can afford it and have plenty of outside interests which to pursue.


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## cainvest

I'll likely go semi-retired around 60, no definite plans but it's a good possibility.


----------



## My Own Advisor

avrex said:


> ....so anyway... getting back on topic...
> 
> Does anybody else here want to retire early (before 65) due to the fact that they have other interests/activities (that they find more interesting than work) that they would rather pursue.


Heck ya!

I hope to be DONE with work at age 55. If I work, it will be on my own terms, on my own schedule, on my own time but not because I have to work.

I have to work now Avrex. 

I have to work now because I'm largely feeding our mortgage with my salary. When I think of it this way, it's quite motivating to get out of debt (meaning own our home sooner than later).

I think early retirement is absolutely the way to go (for us) and I/we look forward to filling my/our days with things I/we wish to do (walks, hikes, travel, hobbies, etc.) on our own clock.


----------



## lightcycle

avrex said:


> Does anybody else here want to retire early (before 65) due to the fact that they have other interests/activities (that they find more interesting than work) that they would rather pursue.


That would describe me.

If everybody else wants to prop up the economy by running on the endless hamster wheel of income and consumption, whether they truly find it rewarding or whether they feel some sense of societal responsibility then more power to them.


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## 1980z28

55 is a nice time to call it done

I will wait until 56, 23 more months to go


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## Moneytoo

@avrex, I finally looked at your blog and see that you've been thinking about it for a while (initially I thought this thread was more of an exploration on the subject ) and have done your home work:

http://www.avrexmoney.com/retirement/can-i-achieve-early-retirement/
http://www.avrexmoney.com/retirement/tax-rate-in-retirement/

So, what's your target retirement age/how far away (ahead) are you in your saving&investing plans?


----------



## the_apprentice

My main objective is and has been for some time to retire early. It's almost an addiction of mine. I value my time more than anything, I want to 'make more, work less'.

I've had excellent progress so far and intend to keep investing as much as my income/expenses allows. I do not have a target age to retire as plans could alter at any moment, but at this pace I feel as if I could retire early (40-50).


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## 1980z28

^^^^
Great to hear business is doing your family good now and in the future,all the hard work has paid off


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## gibor365

> I hope to be DONE with work at age 55


I;m also planning for 55 , ideally I;d be if I get laid off ar 53-54, so can collect good package and some IE later.... but really it doesn't depend on me, as I mentioned, our offshore company is trying oursourced whatever possible and very likely I will be retired even earlier  in this case probably will try to get some contract jobs until 54-55....


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but hope that all of our early retirees have gotten a proper estimate of their reduced CPP (not the Service Canada estimate which assumes you continue to work until 60 or 65). It may not be too big a reduction at 55 yrs but at 50 or less I suspect it will be material. 
Also that everyone is aware of recent articles suggesting a 'new normal' of lower average returns in the future that indicate the old 4% SWR 'rule of thumb' is likely to be too high a withdrawl rate.
Those who subscribe to 'winging it' or otherwise plan to live on $20k/yr can ignore this post (call it fearmongering)


----------



## janus10

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Not to rain on anyone's parade, but hope that all of our early retirees have gotten a proper estimate of their reduced CPP (not the Service Canada estimate which assumes you continue to work until 60 or 65). It may not be too big a reduction at 55 yrs but at 50 or less I suspect it will be material.
> Also that everyone is aware of recent articles suggesting a 'new normal' of lower average returns in the future that indicate the old 4% SWR 'rule of thumb' is likely to be too high a withdrawl rate.
> Those who subscribe to 'winging it' or otherwise plan to live on $20k/yr can ignore this post (call it fearmongering)


Good point and dogger can prepare a detailed analysis if you have your history of contributions, but you can also ballpark it or create your own calculator.

What are you using as an asset mix and nominal return rate for your investment portfolio(s) pre and post retirement?


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

janus10 said:


> Good point and dogger can prepare a detailed analysis if you have your history of contributions, but you can also ballpark it or create your own calculator. What are you using as an asset mix and nominal return rate for your investment portfolio(s) pre and post retirement?


We have no material pre/post retirement portfolio changes planned: currently 52% equities (incl common, prefs, reits and eq ptn of 2 funds, mostly unsheltered and in drip mode), 39% fixed income (strips and fixed inc ptn of 2 funds, mostly sheltered), and 8% cash that is currently looking/waiting for equity opportunities. 
We've run different scenarios but I'm comfortable with 4%-5% nominal ror, and a 2%-3% real ror. With these, our projected required annual income to age 95 represents a 1.6% withdrawl rate, so there is residual estate value. Our income streams include CPP, RRSP's and investment acc, but no OAS or TSFA's or home values.


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## cainvest

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Not to rain on anyone's parade, but hope that all of our early retirees have gotten a proper estimate of their reduced CPP


And don't forget the pushed back OAS in 2023, for those that get it.


----------



## avrex

Great responses, guys!
Thanks for sharing your goals and aspirations.

It's also nice to hear that there are other people who are also hoping to retire sooner rather than later.


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## avrex

Just a note on *Mr. Money Mustache*.
I also *could not* live on the *25k-30k* that he and his family live on.

However, *I do like the message* that Mr. Money Mustache presents:
- He advocates that people stop spending their money on wasteful things.
- He was able to quickly save up enough money to leave his job and pursue a life that was more sensible to him, and that makes him happy.

Although it is a part of the Mr. Money Mustache website, the MMM forum community of early and 'hopeful' early retirees, aren't as extreme as MMM himself. For example, individuals cite much higher amounts than the 25k figure that MMM lives on. In other words, I don't consider the MMM forum to be an extreme early retirement cult. 

Once again, I like the overall message.
Try to save up enough money so that you can leave your paying job (that doesn't really excite you anyway).
Then you can fully pursue those activities/interests that really make you happy.

*****

For those of you who are wondering.... my wife and I are hoping to live on approx *60k annually* in our active retirement years.

We think this would give us a reasonable amount of money to enjoy the activities/interests that we want to pursue.. For much of the year, we would be based in our small, modest townhouse in Ontario. But, we'd also like to spend a few months per year traveling across North America in a truck and trailer. And, if there's any leftover money, maybe we could also take a trip across the ocean.

Based on my savings rate, I've calculated that I'll be in the 53 +/- 2 age range by the time I will be able to consider myself *financially independent* to live that lifestyle.


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## Moneytoo

Thank you, avrex, it turned out to be a very informative thread (and, personally, I learned a lot in these few days - and now instead of fearing that I might be forced to retire in my 50's, can realistically plan for it )


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## humble_pie

avrex said:


> ... my wife and I are hoping to live on approx *60k annually* in our active retirement years.
> 
> We think this would give us a reasonable amount of money to enjoy the activities/interests that we want to pursue.. For much of the year, we would be based in our small, modest townhouse in Ontario. But, we'd also like to spend a few months per year traveling across North America in a truck and trailer. And, if there's any leftover money, maybe we could also take a trip across the ocean.



avrex my call is that you'll do fine on $60k & i believe that the great spirit will likely send you a little more

meanwhile, those legs! lucky mrs avrex! get rolling with the RV/truck combo as soon as you can, while you're both young, the way you plan


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## 1980z28

I have no idea of how much cash I will need to retire at 56

What I know is that I have no pension or my new wife who has only worked for 10 years of her life,she is 53 and I am 54,so just savings to live off till the end

I will wing it,I am sure it will work out in my case because the plan is year by year,not a great plan


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## rikk

^ Well, you might look up my mother in law for some ideas ... she's near Heatherton. Has her own little place ... she does work for the neighbors, snares rabbits, gardens ... even got herself a moose one year. It took a lot of prodding just to get her to collect that $15K she's entitled to ...


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## My Own Advisor

Sounds like a great plan Avrex!

Are you anticipating to live off the income from your investments, or withdraw capital, or both?

I think $60k per year is a great, after-tax, income goal in retirement. Very healthy! 

That money is far beyond a "reasonable amount of money to enjoy the activities/interests that we want to pursue." 

Good on you!


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## cainvest

My Own Advisor said:


> I think $60k per year is a great, after-tax, income goal in retirement. Very healthy!
> 
> That money is far beyond a "reasonable amount of money to enjoy the activities/interests that we want to pursue."
> 
> Good on you!


Yup, $60k ... nicely done!


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## avrex

My Own Advisor said:


> Are you anticipating to live off the income from your investments, or withdraw capital, or both?


Yes, I'll definitely be doing both. 

The plan is to die broke around age 85-90. 




My Own Advisor said:


> Sounds like a great plan Avrex!





cainvest said:


> Yup, $60k ... nicely done!


thanks, guys. I still got a ways to go, but I'll get there.


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## 1980z28

rikk said:


> ^ Well, you might look up my mother in law for some ideas ... she's near Heatherton. Has her own little place ... she does work for the neighbors, snares rabbits, gardens ... even got herself a moose one year. It took a lot of prodding just to get her to collect that $15K she's entitled to ...
> 
> View attachment 4178


That is what I am talking about,,,nice to be on the ocean,all that clean air plus fog wind and rain ,will be very peaceful for me as have not lived there since 1978 when I came to ontario,there is something about your home ,,,that you want to retire back to your birthplace

I only have xxx acres,house will be finished this year,septic and water well finished,hydro poles installed and two 1000 ft driveways,garage done, I purchased a JD 310C to finish landscape and to dig holes and fill them in

Sold my Z28 for 17k last week,could not sleep for a couple nights after that,I had car for 33 years

Have no clue how much Gov`t will provide for me and wife,,,I would guess maybe a couple hundred each month


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## cougar

Interesting contrast this weekend.

My DH and I-late 50's, early 60's-semi retired( debt and mortgage free with assets to see us through retirement) and currently spend about 50,000 per year with a very comfortable lifestyle including travel and raising our 15 year old.

Our friends came to visit-same ages, both work full time, own and manage 3 rental houses, their kids are grown but still helping them out. They own 8 vehicles( including 2 motorcycles), drink organic juice every morning at $80 per litre, use only synthetic oil in the vehicles and our friend was looking at a $39,000 used truck( he trades every 2-3 years). 

A real contrast in lifestyle and stress levels-they are trying to decide when to retire-she hates her job and is ready and he says he plans to retire in a couple of years. Both will have DB plans plus govt benefits plus they are asset rich.


My point being if you want to drink $80 juice and trade vehicles every 2-3 years you may need to work longer and you may or may not be happier,


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## gaspr

I am also a big fan of MMM (Mr Money Mustache). Here is a link to a recent interview of MMM in the Globe & Mail. He is a well spoken and thoughtful guy...


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## Plugging Along

Very interesting thread. I have read some of mmm blog before, but thought he was to extreme for me, but generally liked his philosophy. I didn't know about the forum until this thread. I am surprised that I am much more mustachian than I thought, definitely not 100% but I do have a lot of his principles. I will save money where I can, and will work at at, however, money or saving money has not been the key driver in our choices.


That being said, I have already considered early retirement in under 50's and regular retire in the mid 50's. That is how it has been in my whole family is everyone has been able to retire in their early or mid 50's. I should be on track for that. However, my retire to date has been set for when I think youngest will out of the house. That could be anywhere from age 57 when she is done an undergrad to 61 when she is done a graduate degree. Our goal is to have enough to retire at 55, but won't both pull the plug until we see what our kids are like, who knows it could be earlier too. For us, the kids are the driving factor to retirement.

Based on what we think we will spend in the future (without kids) with some passive income already have, investments and our future pension (assuming I work at the same place which is quite u likely) we could stop saving now for retirement for retirement 55. We already have our proper ties paid off off. Our big unknown that we are saving for is the kids education, and guiding them out of the nest, that is much higher than what my spouse and I spend. Right now, we are working to cover the operating and maintenance costs of the kids to be honest. 

I am beginning to see the benefits I having kids earlier in life. Lol.


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## 1980z28

^^^^^^^

I have 3 boys,first at 21 second at 25 third at 34 he still lives with me and loves the free everything so he will never leave,so I am moving to another province,he does not want to come


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## Islenska

Being a Beatles nut saw an interview recently when Paul McCartney was asked why keep up this pace, you could kick back, tend the garden etc...

His exact words, "it's my job and I'll never go out to pasture.

Also said he was enjoying the business more now than ever. (Not sure if he is cognisant of the CPP rules!)


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## 50/50

I don't see it as easy as " Don't like your job, then retire early" , it becomes a complete life, family, investment, savings, hobby analysis to see what your job is providing and why you work. I don't love my work, but i do enjoy what it enables me to do.


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## Gnote

My Own Advisor said:


> Sounds like a great plan Avrex!
> 
> Are you anticipating to live off the income from your investments, or withdraw capital, or both?
> 
> I think $60k per year is a great, after-tax, income goal in retirement. Very healthy!
> 
> That money is far beyond a "reasonable amount of money to enjoy the activities/interests that we want to pursue."
> 
> Good on you!


Does it go without saying that you'll need more as inflation rises? I've estimated my first year of retirement at about $35,000, but I am forcasting that I'll need 2.9% inflation ( overly cautious ) added to that each year.

Can we simply say 60K a year is great?


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## Plugging Along

1980z28 said:


> ^^^^^^^
> 
> I have 3 boys,first at 21 second at 25 third at 34 he still lives with me and loves the free everything so he will never leave,so I am moving to another province,he does not want to come


ooooiii.... I am hoping it won't be free for my kids, nor do I plan to move provinces to get them out :upset: the 'plan' we have in place (who knows if it will work) is if they are in school and working hard, we will be there to support them. When they are done school, we expect them to work, and pay rent. We want to let them know that they have enough support to do what they want, but not so much that they don't do anything at all. We figure two years after graduation they will get support outside the home. 



50/50 said:


> I don't see it as easy as " Don't like your job, then retire early" , it becomes a complete life, family, investment, savings, hobby analysis to see what your job is providing and why you work. I don't love my work, but i do enjoy what it enables me to do.


That's what I hink to. My work isn't perfect but overall it gives me the ability to balance the other areas


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## 1980z28

^^^^^
I wish I had gone the road you have taken

I paid for my kids education and they live at home as long as they wanted

I still help with rent and car expense that is on going


Retirement is close so all kids get 50k each from sale of house and I will always help if I can,,,3 boys need all the help they can get

I came from a large family of 9 kids without parent help,so I will do what I can,if they need help

As when I am no longer to be on my own I Will get even


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## pwm

My last day at work was April 08, 2005, so I have been retired for 10 years as of today. I'm 65 and I was with the company for 35 years. I basically hated the last 15 years, but I dragged myself in there for the pension and the company stock purchase plan. Quitting at 55 was my goal and I was able to achieve it by careful spending, paying off my mortgage ASAP, and regular saving and investing.

Now my new goal is to be retired as long as I worked, so I have 25 years to go! That means living to 90.


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## Plugging Along

1980z28 said:


> ^^^^^
> I wish I had gone the road you have taken
> 
> I paid for my kids education and they live at home as long as they wanted
> 
> I still help with rent and car expense that is on going
> 
> 
> Retirement is close so all kids get 50k each from sale of house and I will always help if I can,,,3 boys need all the help they can get
> 
> I came from a large family of 9 kids without parent help,so I will do what I can,if they need help
> 
> As when I am no longer to be on my own I Will get even


 After reading your response, I may need to come up with a back up plan if my kids don't want to leave the nest within two years after graduation, that is I may have to make their life at mom and d's house less enjoyable and bearable in other terms other than money. It reminds me of that commercial where the grown kids won't leave home and the elderly father tells the other elderly mother to stop giving the son cheese. He then moves outs. 

I may have to come up with some other creative plans. Let's hope that the foundation I am given them now pays off. My parents wanted me to live at home even after I was married, and still make the offer.... I couldn't wait to get out on my own...


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## 1980z28

^^^^^
Family is Family

I will have a open air fare for the offspring to visit on me

Two way street

I will always be able to visit them and they can never never say there busy or there will be consequences,after all we don`t last for ever,did I say Will


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## avrex

pwm said:


> My last day at work was April 08, 2005, so I have been retired for 10 years as of today. I'm 65 and I was with the company for 35 years. I basically hated the last 15 years, but I dragged myself in there for the pension and the company stock purchase plan. Quitting at 55 was my goal and I was able to achieve it by careful spending, paying off my mortgage ASAP, and regular saving and investing.
> 
> Now my new goal is to be retired as long as I worked, so I have 25 years to go! That means living to 90.


@pwm. Congratulations on your 10 year *'freedom'* anniversary.
You did your time and you now having a much more enjoyable life. Best wishes for the next 25 years.


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## donald

You know when if your healthy and active and once or twice a week maybe you have Cadbury crème egg mc flurry or a king sized Hershey bar and it tastes soo good and everything in the world is good?
But if you ate ice cream and chocolate every day soon you would be sick/fat and feeling like crap
That would be my worry of retirement(early)
I have a sneaky gut feeling retirement isn't the holy grail and end all to be all or nirvana people make it out to be 'wherever you go,there you are'
This might just be me though


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## rikk

^ Retirement isn't for everyone ... ran into a buddy, retired, noticed he was wearing a lanyard indicating a building pass ... he's working on contract, says he likes it. And knowing him, he does ... even though he also knows retired he's at a marginal tax rate of ~ 40% and so 40% of that contract income is gone ... just one of those guys that really likes what he does ...


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## humble_pie

re work & retiring early, i thought i'd put in a word about an amazing senior i encountered recently.

he's a licensed rep at a discount broker. I only found out because we were looking at some option tables, i was on the wrong page so we weren't seeing the same data, he worried out loud that perhaps his eye problem had surfaced again.

then he said he'd had eye surgery recently, he thought he'd recovered well. Then he said he was 77 years old.
.
he had a light tenor voice & he sounded not a day older than 42. I was so astonished to find a gentleman of his age working in a pressure cooker environment like a discount broker that we talked a bit. He said the broker had been a champ about his working conditions. Take all the time you need to recover at full pay, the broker had told him at the time of his eye surgery.

at 77, this youngster was working a 4 day week because he loved it. "I don't understand about golf, i could never play golf every single day," he said.


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## avrex

@humble_pie, that is awesome.

This gentleman clearly loves his job. Continuing to work obviously gives him fulfillment and makes sense for him. Great story.


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## celishave

OldPro said:


> Reading some comments actually gets to be somewhat hilarious. Or would be if it wasn't obvious that those writing them are actually serious and can't see what they are actually saying about where they are in their own heads.
> 
> Forget 'do you like your job'. As Kevin O'Leary often says, 'SHOW ME THE MONEY'. That is WHY you work whether you like your job or not. There may be the odd person who truly does what they do because they love doing it but they are very few and far between. If you don't believe me answer this simple question. If your boss calls you into the office tomorrow and says, 'we're cutting your income in half', what will your reaction be? I doubt very many will still be saying, 'I love my job and if you don't like your job you should look for one you do like.' Work is not about liking your job, it's about making money.
> 
> Regarding working or being retired, here's how that goes. You are either a member of the working class which is anyone who has to work for a living regardless of what position they have or how much they earn, OR you are a member of the leisure class which is anyone who does NOT have to work for a living regardless of what position they left or how much income they have when not working. Someone working and earning $100k+ a year has nothing to crow about over someone who no longer works and is earning $20k+ a year. It is the person with the $20k WITHOUT working who has something to crow about. Especially if they are doing it at a younger age. Does anyone seriously think that being a member of the working class is superior to being a member of the leisure class?
> 
> Our society tells you that your 'heros' should be those who earn more money than you do. That is what you should aspire to. Nonsense, what you should aspire to is being FREE to do as you please, when you please and for as long as you please. NO one who works is free to do that. This misguided sense of what is important is the primary reason why many people who retire are unhappy. Their self worth is all tied up in what they do for a living and their position in the pecking order. They retire and suddenly they are a 'nobody'. Our society DEPENDS on you continuing to work and continuing to CONSUME.
> 
> We live in a consumer society. Obama made a speech recently in which he encouraged people to SPEND money and support the economy. If people don't keep spending the economy will collapse. How clear does the message need to be for people to realize that? Soceity says you HAVE to keep working and you have to keep SPENDING.
> 
> Meanwhile some 30 year old who has figured out how to retire and have a $20k a year income without having to work is laying on a beach somewhere without a care in the world. That 30 year old can work tomorrow if s/he CHOOSES to or s/he can go and find another beach to lay on for a change of scenery. That is the person to admire and look up to as a 'hero'. That person has beat the system at it's own game.
> 
> Avrex there are indeed two groups but they are not those who like work and those who don't. The two groups are those who are the suckers who buy the system's story and those who see through it and figure out how to be FREE.


YES THANK YOU

I always look at it like this. If you had the choice, would you really work over doing whatever you wanted? For the "I love my job" camp, I honestly feel sorry for them. The world is filled with immeasurable things to do, places to go and interesting people to meet and I guarantee you they are all more interesting than what happened in your office today. I am the first one out the door at 4:30 at work. I do my job well and haven't been hassled about it. The few times I have stayed til 6 or so I notice most people leave around 5:30. Why? Work day is done, go home and do something more interesting with your lives!

I post this on a Monday...for the love to work folks, did you really go to bed Sunday night excited to go to work Monday morning? More power to you I suppose. For me it was the usual Sunday Night Cringe, just anticipating the brutal work week ahead, and I do not work some dead end job. I am a manager in a senior financial position in a company you all would have heard of.


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## Eclectic12

celishave said:


> ... I always look at it like this. If you had the choice, would you really work over doing whatever you wanted?
> For the "I love my job" camp, I honestly feel sorry for them.


You feel sorry for the multi-millionaire hockey players who could stop playing but enjoy it? Or the artist who keeps painting? Or the actor who splits his time between family and acting? The entrepreneur who starts several businesses then an angel investment firm?

I get that if you felt you had a choice, you'd pack it in and that there are those that keep going without considering their options ... I can also see debating who is trapped and who is not ... but I don't understand how peoples lives are so black or white that they don't know anyone from the other side.




celishave said:


> ... The world is filled with immeasurable things to do, places to go and interesting people to meet and I guarantee you they are all more interesting than what happened in your office today ... I post this on a Monday...for the love to work folks, did you really go to bed Sunday night excited to go to work Monday morning? More power to you I suppose. For me it was the usual Sunday Night Cringe, just anticipating the brutal work week ahead, ...


You know for your office ... but I'm not sure why your office = all offices ... and yes, I have met people who are excited that Monday's workday is coming.




celishave said:


> ... and I do not work some dead end job. I am a manager in a senior financial position in a company you all would have heard of.


 ... not sure why one's position is relevant to whether one is enjoying it or not ... AFAICT it's the combination of variables such as tasks, culture, pay, flexibility and co-workers that matters to people.


Cheers


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## Moneytoo

So a question to those who "don't like work" - do you like house chores? 'Cause one of the first things that I did when I went back to work after a few years of "not working at home" was to hire a cleaning lady. And, personally, I'd rather be not working at work - and paying someone else to do the cleaning


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## pwm

Interesting discussion. I've been retired 10 years. Hated my job and quit as soon as was possible.

I washed the outside windows yesterday and today I'll be de-thatching the lawn. It's a .85 acre lot so that's a big job. I can't wait to get started. I even take pleasure in blowing snow and keeping my driveway scraped down to the concrete all winter. Why do I love working around the house while I hated working in an office? I think there are several reasons. No one is telling me to do it, I can see an immediate result of my work, and I'm working for myself and not for someone else's benefit. 

I worked in IT tech support. There was no job satisfaction, just recriminations for any small mistake. That's no way to live.


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## cainvest

pwm said:


> I worked in IT tech support. There was no job satisfaction, just recriminations for any small mistake. That's no way to live.


I completely understand anyone in tech support for wanting to retire early (or change jobs), I hear the stuff they have to put up with daily.


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## Beaver101

^ Or being a (super)-mod. :biggrin:


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## Plugging Along

Moneytoo said:


> So a question to those who "don't like work" - do you like house chores? 'Cause one of the first things that I did when I went back to work after a few years of "not working at home" was to hire a cleaning lady. And, personally, I'd rather be not working at work - and paying someone else to do the cleaning


I had to comment here with one of my motivations for working.


When I was a kid, I HATED cleaning my room and chores, but cleaning in general (who doesn't). Of course my parents would make me, and I would do anything to get out of it. It was at the point I stopped going out to play with my friends because I hated cleaning that much. It went as far as my friends coming to help me clean so they would see me. 

My parents who are VERY frugal, one day said 'This is life, who do you think you are some rich person, and you are going to hire someone? '. I was astonished that you could hire someone for cleaning. So I asked 'Really, can hire someone?' My mom, 'You have to be really rich to ,have that kind of money'. At that point, it was one of my personal goals in life to make enough money that I could hire someone to clean my room. 

This is still one of the reason I choose to work. I know it is not frugal, but cleaning brings me extreme happiness. I would rather work a whole week in the office to pay for a day of cleaning. I actually think having some clean our place has saved my marriage too. So well worth it. I am willing to give up multiples of my life to not clean. 

I work and I enjoy it generally. However, what it allows me to do or not do pays is well worth me working. If I retired early, I have time to clean more, but I seriously would hate it. So, I work at something I like to avoid something I hate. I also look at the time value of money. If it costs me $100 to pay someone to do something, and I can earn $500 in the same time, i should waste my time DIY at the opportunity cost of $500.


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## 1980z28

I personally love my job 3 days a week,semi retired

When retired in 23 months,I will still do the same as when I worked only more of it


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## fraser

It is not that I did not enjoy my job. Rather, I wanted the freedom to do what I wanted to do. We have spent 5 out of the last 12 months travelling. It would be difficult to do this if I was still tied to a job.


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## avrex

fraser said:


> Rather, I wanted the freedom to do what I wanted to do. We have spent 5 out of the last 12 months travelling. It would be difficult to do this if I was still tied to a job.


+1 This is exactly me.


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## gibor365

fraser said:


> It is not that I did not enjoy my job. Rather, I wanted the freedom to do what I wanted to do. We have spent 5 out of the last 12 months travelling. It would be difficult to do this if I was still tied to a job.


Nice! This is what we planning to do after retirement..... Fraser , do you care to share which countries did you visit?
Do you buy travel insurance?


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## sags

1980z28 said:


> I personally love my job 3 days a week,semi retired
> 
> When retired in 23 months,I will still do the same as when I worked only more of it


Everybody loves to know a mechanic........or a mechanically inclined person.

My buddy was a licensed mechanic, and he also worked in a factory. He made more money in his home garage (even had a hydraulic lift in it) than he did in his factory job.

If things were slow........which they rarely were, he would buy a car and start fixing it up and then sell it for a nice profit.

I don't know why more young people don't take up the trade. A person can work from home if they want.

One of the great things about being a mechanic and having your own backyard garage..........is all the guys come around to visit.

Another friend wasn't officially a mechanic, but he could fix anything from mechanics to carpentry to metal fabrication.

Everyone gathered at his place to hang out in the garage and shoot the breeze. His wife used to bring out a big commercial coffee pot for us..............LOL.

I really miss those days..............


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## Islenska

I just did a stretch Sunday to Sat last week, about 45hours , had some off for sickness etc,,,,This is not a normal week for me of course but stepped up and did my bit.

So at 62 must admit I am worn to a frazzle and glad for less hours coming up but it has been a comfort to know I can (sorta) still do this. It is pharmacy work so obviously not heavy duty,

Certainly would not contemplate such a workload if I "hated" my job!


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## PrairieGal

Islenska said:


> I just did a stretch Sunday to Sat last week, about 45hours , had some off for sickness etc,,,,This is not a normal week for me of course but stepped up and did my bit.
> 
> So at 62 must admit I am worn to a frazzle and glad for less hours coming up but it has been a comfort to know I can (sorta) still do this. It is pharmacy work so obviously not heavy duty,
> 
> Certainly would not contemplate such a workload if I "hated" my job!


I am working in public accounting and we have about 6 weeks of 50 hour weeks. At 55 I am finding it exhausting. Can't wait for May 1. Can't wait to retire.


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## CalgaryPotato

I work at a job where there is a defined benefit plan and most people can retire early. However many people work for years after they are eligible to retire with a generous pension because they enjoy it so much. Personally I'm of the belief that for most people work is one of the most fulfilling parts of our lives and while it's frustrating sometimes, for most it's the biggest purpose we have to our lives once our kids are grown up.

That being said, for me I do plan to retire once I'm eligible, but honestly if I won the lottery today, I'd really consider keeping working.


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## avrex

@CalgaryPotato
You've brought up an interesting point (that I've heard from other people as well) that I'd like to dig into further.

Stage 1. Let's say you are *45 years old. * 
Let's say you've earned enough money to be financially independent (or perhaps you've gained a significant amount via a lottery or inheritance).



CalgaryPotato said:


> Personally I'm of the belief that for most people work is one of the most fulfilling parts of our lives and while it's frustrating sometimes, for most it's the biggest purpose we have to our lives once our kids are grown up......but honestly if I won the lottery today, I'd really consider keeping working.


You mention that work gives a 'sense of purpose' to our lives. So that even if you were financially independent, you'd keep working.
Ok, I understand this.

Stage 2. Now let's say that you are *65 years old*, 
which we'll say is the age that you are eligible for your defined benefit pension.


CalgaryPotato said:


> for me I do plan to retire once I'm eligible


*The two above quotes seem to be in contradiction.*

If you like your job and/or feel that work gives you a sense of purpose..... then why would you stop working when you hit retirement age?
Or looking at it the other way around.....
If you have planned to stop working at retirement age, then why wouldn't you stop working earlier, when you were financially independent.

********

Are we blindly following some type of societal mantra that dictates,

_"You must work until you hit retirement age. Then, at retirement age, you should stop working."_


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## OnlyMyOpinion

Hmm, what I read was that while many where CP works seem stay even after they are eligible to retire with a good pension, CP in fact plans to retire as soon as they're eligible for that pension (a lottery wouldn't change things because the pension eligibility is the trigger)?


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## CalgaryPotato

True, you could argue it's a bit of a contradiction. But while I enjoy my job, I don't necessarily want to work until the day I die. I know for me I've had a few relatives die or get sick before or right after retiring so I would like to retire at some point.

I don't necessarily think everyone has to fall into either, want to retire the second your financially able, or work until you can't stand up anymore extreme though.

Is retirement age arbitrary? Sure of course it is. But if I picked a different number out of a hat to retire at it would be no less arbitrary either. 

I see your point though, I know people who've stopped working at retirement age and caused themselves undue hardship because they could have still worked, and weren't financially in the best place to retire yet. And similarly those who've worked past the point where they enjoyed their job when they could have financially retired.


----------



## CalgaryPotato

It's only a plan... I'm still relatively young. And so while right now I can't imagine not going to work everyday, the idea of working for little more than free a couple of decades from now doesn't appeal in the same way.

I see the contradiction you're trying to point out. But it's like saying to someone who enjoys running if you could burn just as many calories without running, would you still run, and they say yes, then you'd assume they should run 24/7 because they love running.


----------



## avrex

You mentioned in another thread,


CalgaryPotato said:


> For me, I've been paying into a defined benefits pension plan since I was in my very early 20's. If on top of that I max out both my wife and my leftover RRSP room, and fill both our TFSAs for the sole purpose of retirement,* I'm going to end up with more money in retirement than I'm making now.*


This is why I want to retire early. 

I don't want 'your problem' above of having too much money  and too little time remaining in my life.
I want to spend less time at work and more time on activities that I truly enjoy.

Once I've made enough money to become financially independent, you can bet that I'll be leaving the cubicle farm.


----------



## Westerncanada

avrex said:


> You mentioned in another thread,
> 
> 
> This is why I want to retire early.
> 
> I don't want 'your problem' above of having too much money  and too little time remaining in my life.
> I want to spend less time at work and more time on activities that I truly enjoy.
> 
> Once I've made enough money to become financially independent, you can bet that I'll be leaving the cubicle farm.



I am in a similar position.. even though I love my job, i'd prefer to be there a little bit less or potentially do something more recreational for work.. play more rec hockey, travel, wake up on more beachs..


I've thought alot about how I can develop a remote career when I retire so I can work from anywhere.


----------



## 1.5M

The rules are made to favor the rich capital owners not the poor who are working for them. That's the reason you'd want to "retire" early. You'd become a capital owner (through your investments in stock markets or real estate) and the other working people would indirectly work for you. 
Not saving and investing means you're happy to work for others all your life.


----------



## RBull

fraser said:


> It is not that I did not enjoy my job. Rather, I wanted the freedom to do what I wanted to do. We have spent 5 out of the last 12 months travelling. It would be difficult to do this if I was still tied to a job.


Same idea here. I would have stayed at my part time job for a few years if I had more flexibility with it. 

In our first year of retirement we have been away traveling a total of 21 weeks. We're reveling in it.


----------



## 1980z28

sags said:


> Everybody loves to know a mechanic........or a mechanically inclined person.
> 
> My buddy was a licensed mechanic, and he also worked in a factory. He made more money in his home garage (even had a hydraulic lift in it) than he did in his factory job.
> 
> If things were slow........which they rarely were, he would buy a car and start fixing it up and then sell it for a nice profit.
> 
> I don't know why more young people don't take up the trade. A person can work from home if they want.
> 
> One of the great things about being a mechanic and having your own backyard garage..........is all the guys come around to visit.
> 
> Another friend wasn't officially a mechanic, but he could fix anything from mechanics to carpentry to metal fabrication.
> 
> Everyone gathered at his place to hang out in the garage and shoot the breeze. His wife used to bring out a big commercial coffee pot for us..............LOL.
> 
> I really miss those days..............


Well if you need fixing or to borrow some tools of destruction I have everything you can think of as all the years I have many tools,plus I also have wood working tools of all kinds,my dad pass all his tools to me he was a carpenter by trade

Also having a separate garage,workshop is a great gathering place for sure,love solving problems and able to lend a hand

Some Dire Straiits,Leonard Cohen and Buddy Guy ,love background tunes


----------



## Plugging Along

My dad always told me there were three people on life that the three most important people in your life outside family are:

Your doctor, your lawyer and your mechanic.

Hopefully the one you see the most is your mechanic. Love our family mechanic.


----------



## humble_pie

1980z28 said:


> Well if you need fixing or to borrow some tools of destruction I have everything you can think of as all the years I have many tools,plus I also have wood working tools of all kinds,my dad pass all his tools to me he was a carpenter by trade
> 
> Also having a separate garage,workshop is a great gathering place for sure,love solving problems and able to lend a hand
> 
> Some Dire Straiits,Leonard Cohen and Buddy Guy ,love background tunes




leonard cohen! has a cult following in france where he's known as lay-on-aregh-kohnne.

did u ever read Beautiful Losers? probably the best underground canadian novel of all time. I think it was his 2nd book. Then he quit writing & took up song.

last i heard cohen was living on the carré saint-louis.

like donald sutherland at home in georgeville on the shores of lake memphremagog. In the end, they give up hollywood & come home to canada. Because we're the country that has goodhearted mechanics like z28 & brave combat soldiers like m3s.


----------



## sags

Jerry Seinfeld's mechanic isn't happy with him.


----------



## fraser

I would add accountant to that list.


----------



## janus10

RBull said:


> In our first year of retirement we have been away traveling a total of 21 weeks. We're reveling in it.


Sounds like you're treveling.


----------



## fraser

We have been home for a month. 

Already I am surreptitiously looking at an August/Sept. trip and searching for a 2 month condo rental in Puerto Vallarta this winter. No time to work.


----------



## pooja.majorgainz

Hey,

I have a good job and I like it too,


----------



## gibor365

> searching for a 2 month condo rental in Puerto Vallarta this winter


 curious how much may cost such condo (good location and close to the beach) for 2 months over there?


----------



## fraser

So are we......Just starting our search.

Looked at BNB last night. From 1200 to 20K a month. 

Hoping to get some recommendations from friends of friends who go every year. If not, we will go there after attending a Cancun wedding in late January.


----------



## Financialplannerdude

avrex said:


> I've seen work engagement type surveys, where the results indicate that many people are not happy.
> 
> Something like 30% of people are actively engaged / interested in their current job.
> The other 70%.... are not engaged. The reason they work is purely to earn a salary, in order to live.
> 
> 
> The long-term solution is, plan to retire early:
> - Spend less than you earn. In fact, save aggressively.
> - Pursue your interests/hobbies on the weekends. Be happy/thankful. At least you have those time periods of pure joy.
> - Be Patient. Saving money takes time. On the other hand, it will happen quicker than you think. Compounding money is an amazing thing.
> - Finally, when you have enough money for financial independence..... pull the plug. Walk away. You deserve your freedom.
> Now you'll have 7 days a week to pursue all of your interests/hobbies.



Oh man remember well when 17 working for a summer on a farm and some old dude comment about what he'd do different if he was my age, whoosh right over my head, 40 years later I totally get him. I'ts one of the reasons I harp so much on my nephews and nieces, I really wish someone had done that for my wife and I. We were so clueless back then. 

I too love MMM but for me early retirement is now 62 instead of 67


----------



## kcowan

fraser said:


> So are we......Just starting our search.
> 
> Looked at BNB last night. From 1200 to 20K a month.
> 
> Hoping to get some recommendations from friends of friends who go every year. If not, we will go there after attending a Cancun wedding in late January.


Lots of choices on VRBO
Hotel Zone is most competitive


----------



## gibor365

kcowan said:


> Lots of choices on VRBO
> Hotel Zone is most competitive


But those are short term rentals and pretty expensive,..In South Spain you can rent townhouse for 200-250 euro per month ...much cheaper. Curious if there are websites for long term rentals in Vallarta (over 1 month)...


----------



## Jon_Snow

fraser said:


> We have been home for a month.
> 
> Already I am surreptitiously looking at an August/Sept. trip and searching for a 2 month condo rental in Puerto Vallarta this winter. No time to work.


Check out the news lately on Puerto Vallarta. Gang wars raging. Part of the reason why I prefer Baja to mainland Mexico cities. Hey, come to Baja, I'll show you around.


----------



## PrairieGal

Financialplannerdude said:


> Oh man remember well when 17 working for a summer on a farm and some old dude comment about what he'd do different if he was my age, whoosh right over my head, 40 years later I totally get him. I'ts one of the reasons I harp so much on my nephews and nieces, I really wish someone had done that for my wife and I. We were so clueless back then.
> 
> I too love MMM but for me early retirement is now 62 instead of 67


Agreed. No-one taught me these concepts either. My parents never talked to us much about money. And they weren't really savers. They had some rental properties and good teacher's pensions as their retirement plan. My plan is to semi-retire at 60, and then fully retire at 65 (or 67). Pretty sad in the world of MMM and even here at CMF, but a lot better than some people I know.


----------



## kcowan

gibor said:


> But those are short term rentals and pretty expensive,..In South Spain you can rent townhouse for 200-250 euro per month ...much cheaper. Curious if there are websites for long term rentals in Vallarta (over 1 month)...


Because you are dealing with the owners, they will listen to any reasonable offer for long term rental.

(If you want really cheap without ocean views, try manoamano.com for where locals get accomodation, and don't exclude unfurnished because there are consignment stores here that can get yours furnished quickly.)

(and you can safely ignore media reports. All is quiet here. When I renewed my condo insurance, they were screening for Baja properties because of all the damages they had paid out. We switched companies.)


----------



## gibor365

> Because you are dealing with the owners, they will listen to any reasonable offer for long term rental.


 I understand.... I just saved in favotites long term Spain rentals (hope to use it when we retire ), they publish prices mostly per 1 months ... 200-250 euro per month sounds really cheap for furnished townhouse (cheaper than we pay property tax here )... and in Spain imho more important to rent not very close to beach, but close to bus/train station, as they have excellent transportation system....


----------



## RBull

gibor said:


> But those are short term rentals and pretty expensive,..In South Spain you can rent townhouse for 200-250 euro per month ...much cheaper. Curious if there are websites for long term rentals in Vallarta (over 1 month)...


Can you please find me a well located, nice 2 br, 2th one for that? I have a Spain condo rented for next May. 6X the high number of what you're quoting and I got one of the lower priced ones I saw.


----------



## gibor365

1st hit  townhouse in Arenas, 2bd, Price: €200/month

http://www.thinkspain.com/spanish-property/2340466


----------



## RBull

I get it now- long term rentals....

Not quite what we're looking for, but seems like a reasonable price for sure.


----------



## gibor365

RBull said:


> I get it now- long term rentals....
> 
> Not quite what we're looking for, but seems like a reasonable price for sure.


I mentioned at the beginning that I was looking for a long-term  To tell the truth, I was surprised to see so law prices... €200-250/month in Malaga area is nothing...


----------



## Vicjai

Yes, who doens't want to retire early? Its a question everyone has the same answer for unless you love what you do. I quit my job as a financial services manager because I hated it. Quitting was one of the most liberating things I've ever done. Now, i'm pursuing my passion to write a book about my mom's success in the stock market each:


----------



## gibor365

> I quit my job as a financial services manager because I hated it.


 me, you've got balls 
I also hate my job and just waiting for a package, our company got sold to Indian one and every year we have "waive" of laid offs....at some point I gonna be in such "waive" ....so I'm DTD


----------



## Vicjai

gibor said:


> me, you've got balls
> I also hate my job and just waiting for a package, our company got sold to Indian one and every year we have "waive" of laid offs....at some point I gonna be in such "waive" ....so I'm DTD


Truth is, it all boils down to what you love to do. A wise man once said Find a job you love doing, and you won't have to work a single day. So if: 

Find Job You're Passionate For = Won't Have to Work a Single Day, 
and 

Retirement = No More Work, 

then this must be true 

Find Job You're Passionate For = Retirement! each:


----------



## dorian01

I am 41, with 3 kids and a SAHW. We just hit the FI point where a 4% WR covers all of our expenses. I plan on calling it a day from working a FT Career job by age 45. Does not mean I will never earn some fun part time income again, just means that I get to do it on my own terms. If my current job becomes too big a hassle, I will call it a day sooner than 45.


----------



## avrex

dorian01 said:


> We just hit the FI point where a 4% WR covers all of our expenses. I plan on calling it a day from working a FT Career job by age 45.


I love it when I hear someone reaches the milestone of financial independence.
Congrats dorian!


----------



## RBull

Congrats dorian01. That's an impressive achievement at your age. Good luck with whatever you choose in the coming years.


----------



## My Own Advisor

dorian01 said:


> I am 41, with 3 kids and a SAHW. We just hit the FI point where a 4% WR covers all of our expenses. I plan on calling it a day from working a FT Career job by age 45. Does not mean I will never earn some fun part time income again, just means that I get to do it on my own terms. If my current job becomes too big a hassle, I will call it a day sooner than 45.


Wow, working on your own terms at age 45 is GREAT 

Congrats!!!


----------



## kcowan

dorian01 said:


> I am 41, with 3 kids and a SAHW. ..


Congratulations! Does SAHW agree with the new division of responsibilities when you pull the pin?

That is an issue best handle before the event...my SAHW resented my newly-found interest (interference?) in family matters. Lasted just three more years....


----------



## gibor365

> I am 41, with 3 kids and a SAHW. We just hit the FI point where a 4% WR covers all of our expenses.


 Amazing to achieve it with 3 kids and SAHW.... especially with our taxes!
The problem that when your kids would like to go to university, you wouldn't know how much expenses they gonna have....


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

There is also a lot of discussion these days (including on this forum) questioning whether 4% remains a safe withdrawl rate. This seems particularly relevant if you are considering retiring so young. It would be prudent to know that your savings are sufficient and/or spending plans can be dialled down to work with a 3% withdrawl rate. I.e. that you have a healthy buffer built in.


----------



## gibor365

True... on the other hand, I think that OP calculated it without including CPP/OAS that can give some buffer


----------



## dorian01

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> There is also a lot of discussion these days (including on this forum) questioning whether 4% remains a safe withdrawl rate. This seems particularly relevant if you are considering retiring so young. It would be prudent to know that your savings are sufficient and/or spending plans can be dialled down to work with a 3% withdrawl rate. I.e. that you have a healthy buffer built in.


I am at 4% now at age 41. I am convinced from all the research that I have read that it is enough. However, I plan on working til 45-which will create more savings and growth, plus I will earn some fun part time income, plus OAS and CPP are not factored in. So, I have built a few layers of safety margin.


----------



## dorian01

gibor said:


> Amazing to achieve it with 3 kids and SAHW.... especially with our taxes!
> The problem that when your kids would like to go to university, you wouldn't know how much expenses they gonna have....


I expect to pay the first 2 years of post secondary each, that cost is already factored in over and above my retirement accounts. I also expect them to work during the summer and pay some themselves. After that, if they have to take a student loan out, so be it. I will teach them skills that will allow them to graduate with almost no debt anyhow, and what they have left they will have the capability to pay off quickly. I have lived on my own since 16, so they will already be miles ahead of me....


----------



## avrex

Here are a couple of quotes from the latest Angus Reid Institute report.

_"While 62 per cent of still-working Canadians believe they will miss going to work after retiring, only 39 per cent of retirees felt the same way."

"Boredom was a non-issue, as the majority of those surveyed indicated they had no trouble filling up their days."_


----------



## janus10

avrex said:


> Here are a couple of quotes from the latest Angus Reid Institute report.
> 
> _"While 62 per cent of still-working Canadians believe they will miss going to work after retiring, only 39 per cent of retirees felt the same way."
> 
> "Boredom was a non-issue, as the majority of those surveyed indicated they had no trouble filling up their days."_


Until some recent reading about retirement, I was extremely certain that I would do a complete hard stop in 2 years. Now, I'm less certain.

My wife has said that she would like to ideally work 3 days a week - which, along with other critieria, (more than minimum wage, not too far from wherever we live, not dealing with customers, etc.) will not be easy to find.

So, if she maintains that plan, I could see myself going to the powers that be and ask if I could work 4 days a week with a commensurate drop in base pay. In effect, that would double my pure leisure time - as it is, 1 day each weekend is for stuff - grocery shopping, doing the laundry, mowing the lawn, etc. That leaves only 1 day to kick back and relax. By working 4 days a week, I would double that down time.

Plus, it should give me more energy for the other 4 work days. It would probably allow me to enjoy my job even more, plus the benefits of still earning above average compensation while continuing to swing trade.

I could still retire cold turkey, but as much as my wife says it would be ok, I wouldn't feel right retiring while she still works.


----------



## Eclectic12

^^^

It also gives the two of you a chance to adjust. 

It may not be an issue but my dad initially had trouble so that he started telling mom how to boil water. She politely but firmly told him I've been doing it for well over forty years so buzz off.

(Which now that I think about it ... it ironic considering that she wasn't happy with us kids preparing a plate of whatever for guests unless the process and the end product matched how she thought it should be done ... but that's another topic ... :biggrin: ).


Cheers


----------



## avrex

janus10 said:


> ....I would do a complete hard stop in 2 years.
> My wife has said that she would like to ideally work 3 days a week - which, along with other critieria, (more than minimum wage, not too far from wherever we live, not dealing with customers, etc.) will not be easy to find.


This is the exact same story, and plan, for my wife and I. 
She's interested in 'easing' slowly into retirement by taking part time work.



janus10 said:


> Now, I'm less certain.
> I could still retire cold turkey, but as much as my wife says it would be ok, I wouldn't feel right retiring while she still works.


My wife has also given me her blessing to retire cold turkey, without her. But here's where we are different....

I'm not feeling guilty about doing it. 

To be fair, I have vowed that I will only retire once 'we', 'together', have reached our goal of financial independence.
That way, if she wants to continue to work a little longer, it will be truly her choice.


----------



## RBull

We did the easing in thing. My wife stopped her main career and after a year off, worked at something else easy and enjoyable about 15 hours per week for 18 mths or so. At the time she left her main career I went PT to 3 days per week for approx 30 mths. We both pulled the plug 14 months ago and haven't looked back. This is when we deemed ourselves "retired" having reached our goal of FI. 

I think transitioning in over a few years is a good way to get used to lots of free time, and adapt to spending more time with your SO.


----------



## Jon_Snow

Cold turkey retirement for me. A bit jarring, yes...but to not to have to think about work, even part-time...well worth it.

I think my wife will opt for an "easing in" approach...she is not quite able to fill in free hours of the day like I can. I have perfected this.


----------



## avrex

*Stress*

Do you know another reason to quit cold turkey? (i.e. instead of reducing your hours)..........Stress.

@pwm, @Jon_Snow and others have mentioned this before.
Stress can take a huge toll on your mental and physical well being. It is just not healthy.

Similar to them, I would like
- to make some decent money
- to accumulate and save as much as is feasible
- and finally....to get the hell out of the rat-race as soon as I can.


----------



## Eclectic12

One knows oneself the best ... though I've always found that having a plan and/or the ability to walk away reduces or eliminates the stress.


Cheers


----------



## RBull

Good plan avrex. 

Getting away from the stress was the big one for my wife. For me I had already left my main career many years earlier, and my employment wasn't too stressful. Not working was just so much more appealing though.


----------



## janus10

RBull said:


> We did the easing in thing. My wife stopped her main career and after a year off, worked at something else easy and enjoyable about 15 hours per week for 18 mths or so. At the time she left her main career I went PT to 3 days per week for approx 30 mths. We both pulled the plug 14 months ago and haven't looked back. This is when we deemed ourselves "retired" having reached our goal of FI.
> 
> I think transitioning in over a few years is a good way to get used to lots of free time, and adapt to spending more time with your SO.


RBull, so how soon after you became FI did you and your wife transition from semi-retired to fully?


----------



## janus10

avrex said:


> Do you know another reason to quit cold turkey? (i.e. instead of reducing your hours)..........Stress.
> 
> @pwm, @Jon_Snow and others have mentioned this before.
> Stress can take a huge toll on your mental and physical well being. It is just not healthy.
> 
> Similar to them, I would like
> - to make some decent money
> - to accumulate and save as much as is feasible
> - and finally....to get the hell out of the rat-race as soon as I can.


That certainly is a huge factor. I think in Jons case it was the physical toll. 

For me, it's the stress of being in sales which often is a great life but also has its moments where you are constantly trying to justify your company and product to clients, and yourself to your employer. 

At least with a small employer, politics rarely have been an issue in my career. And I actually like sales because of the pay for performance. The challenges are the pressure to grow revenue when so much is dependent on the sales and product managers in our clients.

Now that we are FI, I do find myself worrying less about the long term revenue stream from my accounts. And I actually am looking forward to passing my big accounts to the younger crop of new salespeople. It would be a little gratifying building them up and knowing that my colleagues, and their families, can benefit from the transition.


----------



## Kail

I'm jealous of all those who can retire early. I used to absolutely love my job, there was 0 stress and the company was amazing... then we were bought out by a much larger competitor. I don't "hate" my job, but it is getting there quickly. I'm stressed almost all of the time, started smoking and biting my nails again. My line of work is so specialized that it would be hard to go anywhere else unfortunately so I'm stuck unless I want to go back to school. That's completely out of the question since we just bought our first home and my savings have been depleted to pretty much nothing. I make 55k + bonus a year so it isn't that much (the wife makes a LOT more which is A OK by me), my only hope is to climb the ladder and deal with the corporate BS which I'm really not looking forward to. My team is great and I love working with them, but management is a whole different matter.

C'est la vie I guess. Ideally I would like to just move somewhere warm close to a beach and open up a tiki bar except you can't do that in Canada.


----------



## CPA Candidate

I don't dislike work at all. My job and my interests are in alignment and I like the people I work with.

If all you want is leisure and relaxation, you are discarding a lot of want you're made of. I'm been working full time and taking accounting courses simultaneously for three years while being a parent. I work during the day and go home and work at night on my studies. That might seem like a burden to most people but every time I get my marks back and I am the highest in the province or nation again, the feeling more than compensates for the workload. 

Nothing is more rewarding for me that being pushed to my limits again and again and coming through with another success. That's what life is all about. A life without a challenge is not much of a life at all in my opinion.


----------



## RBull

janus10 said:


> RBull, so how soon after you became FI did you and your wife transition from semi-retired to fully?


I don't think I can give you a simple answer. FI for us was a moving target. We were originally targeting summer of '09 and then I lost a great career in late ''04. I had to reinvent myself and started a business in '04 that required capital and that I sold right when the great recession hit. My decision was made for me to an extent to go back to work in a more relaxed but lower paying job, while our assets recovered from a 50% drop. I went P/T half way through that 5 years and pulled the plug on my 55th birthday. I also had a sales and sales management career and have never worked outside of a pay for performance situation. My wife had left a year earlier than planned at age 52, and took a penalty and reduced pension for health reasons. 

We have less than originally planned but enough to live fine, with very conservative assumptions. A huge plus was our strong financial situation gave us options when I lost my job and even when the markets dumped. However, a lesson for others if they are interested is consider reducing equity exposure years prior to retiring and into retirement. 

I think the big question is how much is enough for each person to consider themselves FI, and just how strong is your wish to stop working. We love retirement.


----------



## HaroldCrump

There is a lot of "retirement porn" floating around these days.
Some of it is driven by the mainstream financial media & industry vying for more clients and investment $.
Here is an example, eerily similar to the title of this thread:

*Just retire*

If simply retiring is the "secret" to a happy & healthy life, then no one should work, like ever.


----------



## gibor365

There are websites who makes money of people's desire to retire  For example International Living 

http://internationalliving.com/2015/01/the-best-places-to-retire-2015/#/


----------



## donzo

CPA Candidate said:


> I don't dislike work at all. My job and my interests are in alignment and I like the people I work with.
> 
> If all you want is leisure and relaxation, you are discarding a lot of want you're made of. I'm been working full time and taking accounting courses simultaneously for three years while being a parent. I work during the day and go home and work at night on my studies. That might seem like a burden to most people but every time I get my marks back and I am the highest in the province or nation again, the feeling more than compensates for the workload.
> 
> Nothing is more rewarding for me that being pushed to my limits again and again and coming through with another success. That's what life is all about. A life without a challenge is not much of a life at all in my opinion.


Good for you! You are very lucky to be doing something you are interested in and get a lot of personal satisfaction from. Not all of us are in that situation. 

I'm not retired. But... my theory is that I seek retirement so I can choose my own challenges and they don't have to be ones that also provide a suitable income. I don't want to be doing something that I don't enjoy, and I don't want to select activities based on financial reward. Someone earlier in the thread said "you need to retire TO something, rather than FROM something" and that is my goal.


----------



## tygrus

CPA Candidate said:


> I don't dislike work at all. My job and my interests are in alignment and I like the people I work with.
> 
> Nothing is more rewarding for me that being pushed to my limits again and again and coming through with another success. That's what life is all about. A life without a challenge is not much of a life at all in my opinion.


Yeah dude wait until you are about 40, then it will be different. When we are young we are all full of piss and vinegar and then you run into the establishment and if you cannot integrate into it, you are on the outside. Some people do not have the personality for that, I don`t, so now I sit on my patio and take the check.


----------



## gibor365

> Yeah dude wait until you are about 40


 ...and wait again until you about 50 



> A life without a challenge is not much of a life at all in my opinion


 If you want chalange , than immigrate to another country (and i don't mean US )... We immigrated from CCCP to Israel and 10 years after to Canada, everywhere started from scratch ... so we got challenges until rest of our lifes already


----------



## My Own Advisor

RBull said:


> I think the big question is how much is enough for each person to consider themselves FI, and just how strong is your wish to stop working. We love retirement.


It's getting stronger by the day... 

I am a big jealous of those who can pull the plug early, say 40s and early 50s.

I want to "be there" now but I recognize I've made some decisions in life that prevented that. i.e., not saving enough in my 20s, lots of travel in my 30s, bought a larger house, etc.

Otherwise, we are doing OK. Rather, as long as I have my health I really shouldn't complain for one second. I feel very blessed and fortunate.


----------



## Gnote

tygrus said:


> Yeah dude wait until you are about 40, then it will be different. When we are young we are all full of piss and vinegar and then you run into the establishment and if you cannot integrate into it, you are on the outside. Some people do not have the personality for that, I don`t, so now I sit on my patio and take the check.


Retirement does not necessarily mean 'no more pushing to the limits'. You can, just in a different way. For example, pushing yourself for that perfect tennis score, or pushing yourself to take up piano, or learning another language. It's just a different kind of goal to reach.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

My Own Advisor said:


> It's getting stronger by the day...  I am a bit jealous of those who can pull the plug early, say 40s and early 50s.
> I want to "be there" now but I recognize I've made some decisions in life that prevented that. i.e., not saving enough in my 20s, lots of travel in my 30s, bought a larger house, etc. Otherwise, we are doing OK. Rather, as long as I have my health I really shouldn't complain for one second. I feel very blessed and fortunate.


Well I think you're doing just fine. Try to remember - it's about the journey, not the destination.
We didn't even begin to think about retirement till we got into our 50's. Asleep, or too busy with kids before then I guess.


----------



## RBull

My Own Advisor said:


> It's getting stronger by the day...
> 
> I am a big jealous of those who can pull the plug early, say 40s and early 50s.
> 
> I want to "be there" now but I recognize I've made some decisions in life that prevented that. i.e., not saving enough in my 20s, lots of travel in my 30s, bought a larger house, etc.
> 
> Otherwise, we are doing OK. Rather, as long as I have my health I really shouldn't complain for one second. I feel very blessed and fortunate.



Stronger = more motivated. Maybe not a bad thing. 

You can likely pull the plug in your 40's as we could have, however in hindsight that timing with the markets in '08/09 would have been very troubling. Like I said earlier it's about determining just how much is enough, along with what your priorities are, and are you fully retiring or just moving to something on your own or P/T. I went P/T at 52 when I wanted to have more of my own time than work time, and my wife had fully stopped work a little before. 30 months later I "retired" when I recognized my commitment to clients and my employer was waning a bit, and there was no way I could stay and work giving less than 100%, as I didn't see that as fair to anyone. That we had "enough" at that time made the decision to stop working completely an easy one. 

You are doing excellent. Many of us have "reasons" that we can't fully retire in our 40's and early 50's. Life happens and the "reasons" may be great life experiences enhancing the whole journey. I suspect some of these folks "retired" still have one spouse working or do something P/T. (Just my opinion but not the same thing as a couple being fully retired which requires a much higher level of commitment & resources, but allows much greater flexibility for things like traveling)

Yes, health is the most vital piece in all of this. We also feel blessed and fortunate.


----------



## avrex

*******************
I love satirical humour.  
It's funny, with truth embedded within the joke.

For many of us, the work environment can be a stressful and draining place to spend the majority of our waking lives.


----------



## Itchy54

Hubby retires two weeks from today for this exact reason. Work stresses him so bad his jaw locks. He was on anti depressants but no longer is...all because of work. He has had three close friends die young, before they retired.
We won't be rich but will liver very well. I am so happy!

I am also the most gullible person in the world, it took me a bit to realize the article was a joke....I hang my head in shame.


----------



## RBull

^Good luck to you and your husband. Great decision for him to leave. 

From your description on another thread seems like you'll be doing just fine. We've each been retired for 4 years/18 months. It's great!


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## Itchy54

Thanks RBull! I am sure we will be just fine!
Five weeks in Mexico coming up (my break from my part time job at the university). We get home the day before I head back to work....I am so happy he doesn't have to ever worry about that again. His stress levels were very scary indeed.


----------



## Jon_Snow

Itchy, just about to head down to the Baja...at the very minimum I will be staying 6 weeks. But the beauty is, thanks to my ER'ed status, I only booked a one way ticket down. My return date is TBD...some negotiation with my wife will largely determine when I return to the soggy B.C. coast. I am still giddy that I have pulled this off...sometimes I worry I will wake up only to discover I've been dreaming. 

Your husbands experiences with work related stress sound all too familiar to me...I am happy for you both!


----------



## RBull

Itchy54 said:


> Thanks RBull! I am sure we will be just fine!
> Five weeks in Mexico coming up (my break from my part time job at the university). We get home the day before I head back to work....I am so happy he doesn't have to ever worry about that again. His stress levels were very scary indeed.


You're welcome. I understand. My wife left her employment earlier than expected for the same reasons as what your husband is experiencing. Your retirement phase will be great. 

Have fun in Mexico. We leave in 4 weeks for 5 weeks in China, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore and Hong Kong.


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## My Own Advisor

These recent threads are inspiring... !


----------



## janus10

RBull said:


> You're welcome. I understand. My wife left her employment earlier than expected for the same reasons as what your husband is experiencing. Your retirement phase will be great.
> 
> Have fun in Mexico. We leave in 4 weeks for 5 weeks in China, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore and Hong Kong.


I will be very interested in hearing more about your trip once you return. I have visited all of those places, but only on business, with a tiny bit of sightseeing in and around Beijing and HK.

My wife wants us to visit Thailand, Singapore and HK when we retire. I have no desire to return to Vietnam even though I wouldn't be surprised there are some nice spots.


----------



## RBull

^This is a first for us in Asia. Looking forward to it.


----------



## lost in space

dorian01 said:


> I am 41, with 3 kids and a SAHW. We just hit the FI point where a 4% WR covers all of our expenses. I plan on calling it a day from working a FT Career job by age 45. Does not mean I will never earn some fun part time income again, just means that I get to do it on my own terms. If my current job becomes too big a hassle, I will call it a day sooner than 45.


Could you maybe go into a bit more detail on how you managed to save so much. I’ve done a deep dive into this and generally speaking to make FI the stars have to align properly

1. An extremely good paying job in your early 20s
2. A supportive spouse who also earns very good money
3. Not having kids till you’re very well established
4. Low house prices

I have several friends who are simply amazing, super super frugal, they’re the poster children for living a fabulous life on under 30 grand a year. Problem, while they live on very little, they also earn very little, both are musicians with SAHM! Also like Kail mentioned “since we just bought our first home and my savings have been depleted to pretty much nothing” I’ve read enough to know that it can be done even on a lowerish income but it’s not clear how they managed to do this though.

I'd be particulary interested in knowing how you manage day care and commuting costs, those are the big budget killers


----------



## My Own Advisor

Most of the folks I've talked to about early FI did a few of the following:

1. Killed debt, including mortgage debt early.
2. Had a very high savings rate for many years (e.g., saved 30% _or more_ of their net income for at least 10-20 years).
3. Did not have kids or had kids when they could afford it.
4. Did not travel extensively in their 20s, 30s, or 40s - waited to travel.
5. Had good, stable jobs that allowed for their savings rate.
6. Learned quickly about personal finance and investing as to a) minimize money management expenses and b) maximize investment income or growth.


----------



## lost in space

My Own Advisor said:


> Most of the folks I've talked to about early FI did a few of the following:
> 
> 1. Killed debt, including mortgage debt early.
> 2. Had a very high savings rate for many years (e.g., saved 30% _or more_ of their net income for at least 10-20 years).
> 3. Did not have kids or had kids when they could afford it.
> 4. Did not travel extensively in their 20s, 30s, or 40s - waited to travel.
> 5. Had good, stable jobs that allowed for their savings rate.
> 6. Learned quickly about personal finance and investing as to a) minimize money management expenses and b) maximize investment income or growth.


good points, I've noticed that high income usually equates with a high cost of living and low income plus kids usually equates with being frugal!

Oh how I wish I had found frugal living blogs much earlier than I did!


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## Jon_Snow

I always felt that work was overrated...3 weeks into my first extended snowbird stint this feeling as only been confirmed 1000 times over.

Wish you were here CMF...


----------



## peterk

Pshh, there's no place I'd rather be than Fort McMurray! :biggrin::stupid:

Photo taken yesterday.


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## avrex

Jon_Snow said:


> I always felt that work was overrated...3 weeks into my first extended snowbird stint this feeling as only been confirmed 1000 times over.
> Wish you were here CMF...


I love it, Jon. 

Keep posting those FIRE porn pics. 
It keeps us inspired to get there too.


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## avrex

*Job Status*

My wife knows someone who proudly states, "I'm a Director at [MegaCorp]"
For many people, their job status is very important to them. 
It defines a large part of who they are, as a person.

I guess this makes sense. We spend a large part of our "waking life" at work.
It's a part of our society. For example, when people meet for the first time, one of the typical ice-breaker questions is, "What do you do for a living?"

I know a colleague, who is at retirement age, but he will probably never retire. 
It's not that he absolutely loves his job. It's more that his job status is so important to him.

For these people, they cannot envision "who they would be" outside of work.


For me..... I have never felt that I was defined by my job status.


----------



## Moneytoo

When I didn't work for a few years a few years ago, I was putting "Unemployed" on any application that required employment status. Even though I wasn't looking for work - and didn't think I ever will. Once I was crossing the US border to meet a friend from LiveJournal on the other side of Niagara, and the customs officer wrote down "Occupation: Homemaker" - I hated it, and couldn't get over it for months...

So yes, now that I "started from the bottom" again and worked my butt off for 4 years to get the title I wanted 10 years ago, and actually was "semi-elected" by my team for this position (i. e. didn't have to violate my integrity - quite the opposite) - I'll be proudly introducing myself as "Development Manager at [CoolCorp]". 

At least for a while...


----------



## NewBrunswick

avrex said:


> My wife knows someone who proudly states, "I'm a Director at [MegaCorp]"
> For many people, their job status is very important to them.
> It defines a large part of who they are, as a person.
> 
> I guess this makes sense. We spend a large part of our "waking life" at work.
> It's a part of our society. For example, when people meet for the first time, one of the typical ice-breaker questions is, "What do you do for a living?"
> 
> I know a colleague, who is at retirement age, but he will probably never retire.
> It's not that he absolutely loves his job. It's more that his job status is so important to him.
> 
> For these people, they cannot envision "who they would be" outside of work.
> 
> 
> For me..... I have never felt that I was defined by my job status.


This is true for myself and many others in the military. I think it's even more likely than other places of work because we have a ranking system ingrained into our society, you always know exactly where you stand in the pecking order and you wear that rank everywhere.

It's discouraging to see people closer to retirement that completely live for the job. I really wonder what they are going to do with themselves when they don't have a bunch of subordinates that MUST listen to whatever they care to go on about. I hope I don't end up a crusty old Sergeant Major.


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## GalacticPineapple

avrex said:


> My wife knows someone who proudly states, "I'm a Director at [MegaCorp]."


The pride comes from the income sir. No one gives a *hit about being a Director at MegaCorp. For some reason it's not polite to talk about income so people talk titles instead.


----------



## My Own Advisor

avrex said:


> I love it, Jon.
> 
> Keep posting those FIRE porn pics.
> It keeps us inspired to get there too.


Same...you are an inspiration...


----------



## Daniel A.

Jon_Snow said:


> I always felt that work was overrated...3 weeks into my first extended snowbird stint this feeling as only been confirmed 1000 times over.
> 
> Wish you were here CMF...


I can clearly picture it but have not decided where to go this winter. 

Dan


----------



## avrex

A friend said that this is what it feels like. 

Bliss. Every. Day.


----------



## Davis

I retired yesterday at 50 from my fulfilling and seemingly important job as a director overseeing 48 staff. I feel so relaxed. I do not have to rush from task to task. I have to remind myself that I don't have to check the BlackBerry, since I no longer have one. Husband and I are finding ourselves laughing every so often for no reason. Life is extra good today.


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## kcowan

Our 6 months in PV is coming to an end in a week. Too soon! The weather has been fantastic. It is the heat and humidity that normally chases us out of here...


----------



## avrex

Davis said:


> I retired yesterday at 50 ..... Husband and I are finding ourselves laughing every so often for no reason. Life is extra good today.


Awesome. Congrats, Davis.


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## avrex

kcowan said:


> Our 6 months in PV is coming to an end in a week. Too soon! The weather has been fantastic...


Perfect. You end up getting good weather 12 months a year. 
To your good health, kcowan.


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## mrPPincer

congrats y'all who've achieved it! it's great to have that to share with someone, not as big a deal when running solo, but seeing others achieve such happiness is to me truly an inspiring thing


----------



## Davis

avrex said:


> Awesome. Congrats, Davis.


Thanks, Avrex. It is awesome, indeed.


----------



## kcowan

avrex said:


> Perfect. You end up getting good weather 12 months a year.
> To your good health, kcowan.


Thanks. It is amazing. DW and I pinch ourselves and say: "Do we really deserve this?"
Middle of June, we are going to Metz to start an 8 day bike/barge trip down the Moselle River. I used to live on Moselle Island which was a colloquial term for the area between the rive and the canal. Wrapping around it a trip to Amsterdam and Paris.

In September, I will go to Toronto to visit 5 GCs and some work buddies who have been meeting one weekend a year since 1968. Life is good.


----------



## fraser

Three surprises for me in early retirement. I thought that I might miss my job...even for a while. Did not happen. I was concerned that notwithstanding my calculations, that our assets would start dwindling away. The opposite has occurred. Our net worth has increased. I did not pay much attention to the state of my health prior to retirement-took it for granted. Since then our lifestyle has changed drastically to encompass an awareness of our good health anda much healthier diet and regular exercise regime.

The huge realization for me was how very fortunate we were to retire early, have good health, and have the resources and desire to work on a bucket list that had been growing for many years. I find it surprising how our retirement focus has shifted from possessions to experiences. We consider ourselves to be extremely fortunate. Extensive travel has served to heighten our appreciation of what we have in Canada and how fortunate we are to be part of it.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Davis said:


> I retired yesterday at 50 from my fulfilling and seemingly important job as a director overseeing 48 staff. I feel so relaxed. I do not have to rush from task to task. I have to remind myself that I don't have to check the BlackBerry, since I no longer have one. Husband and I are finding ourselves laughing every so often for no reason. Life is extra good today.


Great stuff 

Much health and happiness!!


----------



## Beaver101

Davis said:


> I retired yesterday at 50 from my fulfilling and seemingly important job as a *director overseeing 48 staff*. I feel so relaxed. I do not have to rush from task to task. I have to remind myself that I don't have to check the BlackBerry, since I no longer have one. Husband and I are finding ourselves laughing every so often for no reason.* Life is extra good today*.


 ... overseeing a staff of 48? I would have run for the exit earlier than age 50 ... congrats and enjoy! :encouragement:


----------



## Davis

MOA and Beaver, thanks. Today is my first Monday of not getting up at 5:00 to get on the train. My mind flips backs to work problems from time to time, and I have to remind myself that (a) they are somebody else's problem, and (b) I can't do anything about them anyway. I'm not going to be the weird retired guy who keeps calling or dropping in with a new idea or an issue that people should be thinking about. I've hired and trained enough people through my career that it is time to give them a chance to run the show.


----------



## NotJustDreaming

Great thread. I just finished reading it over a few days.

I don't hate my job and often really enjoy it but it constantly interferes with various things. I want ER so I don't have to stop whatever I'm up to at the behest of someone else. 

In 2006, I started FIRE plans with dedication. At the time I'd been struggling trying to fit in my kids special days at school. You know, a concert or play or skating. All those things that little kids do and really want you there for. And I'd regretfully miss family dinners and bedtime because of shift work.

Now I've got two teens and a nine year old and some regrets that I couldn't pull it off sooner. 

2017 is our big year. We're calling it quits at 46 and 48. We're starting off with a year of slow world travel. The two oldest are 15 and 13 and are still excited about travelling with us. The boy just wants to stay home and is worried we'll make him walk too much. 

Aside from our travel allotment each year and subsidizing my mom a bit, we spend about $40k as a family of five. So I think $30k for four is not poverty level. We paid off our mortgage in 2008 or 9 so we don't have that large expense but we still have weekly house cleaning and karate, school trips, camps and piano lessons. One vehicle though. Sometimes we rent if there is a conflict but it's still way cheaper.

I break out travel as a separate line item in our spending spreadsheet because it is completely discretionary. And such a relatively huge expense. Especially now since we feel stuck traveling over peak times. I've got about twelve years of spending data and love to know how much we spend on various things. Not a budget per se but interesting data. They're narrow categories (alcohol, groceries, dining out, household goods, personal hygiene etc) but even though I'd love to know, I don't track how much we spend on bricks of cheese or pounds of coffee. That would interesting but too onerous. And weird. Some probably think I'm cracked for enjoying tracking spending but it only takes minutes a day.

I'm looking forward to our slow travel. We'll world school the kids and then see what happens once we return. Though my hobbies are unlikely to generate income, DH is a keen historian and I could see him taking up a paid hobby upon our return. So long as it's not too constricting on our bucket lists I'll 'let' him pursue his interests paid or otherwise. But that's the whole point of FI for me... To do whatever you want whenever you want to do it.

My mom is 68 and in her last days of a battle with cancer. The loss of her aside, it floors and depresses me that she's just 23 years older than me. 

I do and will continue to talk about money with my kids. I'll encourage them to work hard and push the savings envelope for the first decade of their working careers. Once they've got a good pot of F-you, they can do whatever inspires them. At the very least, they know that's what I wish I did in my early adulthood. 

Unless something devastating happens, we'll most likely leave a sizeable estate. But I don't want them to know about it until/if/when they've learned the value of money. Split three ways it won't be enough to retire on, Mustachians excepted, but I still want them to earn FI the harder way.


----------



## avrex

Great post @NotJustDreaming.
You've definitely got your **** together. 
You've got plans, you know what you want, and you're almost there.

A nice early retirement for you in 2017 at such a young age. Congrats.

I'm with you. I'm looking forward to some slow travel in future years.


----------



## donzo

kcowan said:


> Middle of June, we are going to Metz to start an 8 day bike/barge trip down the Moselle River.
> <snip>
> Life is good.





fraser said:


> I thought that I might miss my job...even for a while. Did not happen.
> <snip>
> The huge realization for me was how very fortunate we were to retire early, have good health, and have the resources and desire to work on a bucket list that had been growing for many years.





Davis said:


> Today is my first Monday of not getting up at 5:00 to get on the train. My mind flips backs to work problems from time to time, and I have to remind myself that (a) they are somebody else's problem,
> <snip>
> I've hired and trained enough people through my career that it is time to give them a chance to run the show.


Inspiring stuff! Thanks for this thread.

I'm targeting 2017 myself. Kind of crazy... after a fairly frugal life, my savings weren't particularly impressive (< $200K - although the house is paid off, which is huge). But some inheritance and a pending company buyout looks to catapult me into financial independence. I'm in my early 50's... and have felt ready for retirement since 45. So this is exciting. It does feel strange to leave a great team that I built from the ground up, but like Davis says - its their time to shine now! Hoping to get after that bucket list too! (Cycling in France is in there! I was planning on the Loire Valley though.) 

Its great to read the stories of those of you have got there and aren't looking back!


----------



## gibor365

> I'm targeting 2017 myself. Kind of crazy... after a fairly frugal life, my savings weren't particularly impressive (< $200K - although the house is paid off, which is huge). But some inheritance and a pending company buyout looks to catapult me into financial independence.


So, in your opinion, how much savings do your family needs in order to retire?
From my calculations, we'll need combined (Cash, RRSP, LIRA, TFSA ....) around 1.5 mil


----------



## Davis

And five weeks on, I haven't looked back. It hasn't been a great month - we had sold my mother's house, which had to be cleared out, and she went into hospital, and is now in palliative care. But I am so glad that I have not had to split my time and mental energy with a job - I have been able to focus myself on her needs, and still have some time to relax. If I had had to do a job too, I would be at a breaking point now. If she goes, and it seems to be her time to go, husband and I will book a two-month trip to Iceland and central Europe in the autumn.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion

Davis said:


> And five weeks on, I haven't looked back...


Davis, Sorry to hear about your mother. Our best laid retirement plans do get temporarily derailed sometimes. IMO, all the more reason to retire early if one can.


----------



## donzo

gibor said:


> So, in your opinion, how much savings do your family needs in order to retire?
> From my calculations, we'll need combined (Cash, RRSP, LIRA, TFSA ....) around 1.5 mil


Well... actually I guess I ignored my RRSP - combined with my wife's we've got around $600K in RRSPs. The "<$200K" is non-registered savings. What I was trying to get across with the "frugal life" is that it didn't actually help me that much. Well, maybe I wasn't frugal enough, or maybe it helped a lot and I don't appreciate it. Being debt free and owning our own home (in Vancouver) is still something.

Anyway, back to your question - the bad news is my kids are still young (<12 y.o.) and that makes me worried about how much they could end up costing me until they become financially self-sufficient. The good news is that the inheritance and buy-out package (I'm a partial owner in the business) should put my nest egg north of $3M, and I have the opportunity to continue working at the company part time (3-4 days a week for 6-8 months of the year). So I think I'm ok. I have to admit that I haven't really calculated carefully how much we need. Just thinking that if I use a SWR of 3%, at $3M, that gives me $90K (mostly after tax) which is like a salary of $120K or so before tax... should be ok.


----------



## gibor365

> north of $3M


 obviously with $3M you can retire immediately


----------



## redsgomarching

gibor said:


> obviously with $3M you can retire immediately


is the 3 mill all assets including real estate or is this liquid assets?

cause if that is the case guy even at 3% investment return (dividend income) you are looking at 90k per year lol.

One of my family friend's literally hit the jackpot with her property, small home, large amounts of land a long the lake in port credit. 

Has always worked at an average wage etc but with the new housing market that is currently bulling forward she has had offers of 1.5 million + for her land lot. 

Shes almost 65 and I told her heck sell the home, invest, travel. Found a cruise program that literally costs around 25-30k per 220 days to go on. works out to be around 100$ or so a day and she could live entirely off of investment income at a rate of 4-5% AND possibly buy a much downsized house for when shes not travelling. 

Factor in CPP and OAS when she fully retires and hits 65, i am pretty envious. that is the dream!


----------



## My Own Advisor

If I was offered $1.5 million + for lot, I would sell and run and enjoy whatever I want.

Nice problem to have!!


----------



## redsgomarching

My Own Advisor said:


> If I was offered $1.5 million + for lot, I would sell and run and enjoy whatever I want.
> 
> Nice problem to have!!


while it is a nice problem to have - a lot of people in that area are too attached or too greedy.


----------



## CalgaryPotato

donzo said:


> Anyway, back to your question - the bad news is my kids are still young (<12 y.o.) and that makes me worried about how much they could end up costing me until they become financially self-sufficient. .


While your kids are relatively young, they are still close to the age where you don't need to worry about child care anymore. And soon they will be at the age where they start getting part time jobs to cover their own discretionary spending. The big thing is if you have a plan to cover their schooling that you haven't already discounted out of your savings. (With so much unregistered money, I'm hoping you have RESP's for them if you have any plans to do that, otherwise you are leaving a lot of free money on the table.)

I know the way Vancouver is, you may have them living with you for a while still, but that doesn't mean you'll be paying all of their bills.


----------



## My Own Advisor

redsgomarching said:


> is the 3 mill all assets including real estate or is this liquid assets?
> 
> cause if that is the case guy even at 3% investment return (dividend income) you are looking at 90k per year lol.
> 
> One of my family friend's literally hit the jackpot with her property, small home, large amounts of land a long the lake in port credit.
> 
> Has always worked at an average wage etc but with the new housing market that is currently bulling forward she has had offers of 1.5 million + for her land lot.
> 
> Shes almost 65 and I told her heck sell the home, invest, travel. Found a cruise program that literally costs around 25-30k per 220 days to go on. works out to be around 100$ or so a day and she could live entirely off of investment income at a rate of 4-5% AND possibly buy a much downsized house for when shes not travelling.
> 
> Factor in CPP and OAS when she fully retires and hits 65, i am pretty envious. that is the dream!


I guess it all depends on your monthly burn rate.

With $3M in invested personal assets, I could easily retire; as in now.

As for the millions of dollars in real estate, living in Vancouver, if I had the choice of a) working for the next 20 years, in Vancouver, to save for retirement outside my home or b) being retired anywhere else after selling my multi-million dollar overpriced Vancouver home - I would absolutely take option b).

That's just me because I value my time more than real estate.


----------



## ThisGuyNelson

I'm not sure how familiar people are with Tim Ferriss and the four hour work week, but for me that would be the dream.

Obviously the way Tim does it is exaggerated but, like most people, I dislike being bound by a job. For me, the solution is to start a microbusiness online where I can work anywhere and travel the world at my leisure.

This sounds difficult and I know it will be, but I'm already in the process. As of right now I sell furniture over the phone, so you can all imagine how exciting that is.


----------



## donzo

My Own Advisor said:


> As for the millions of dollars in real estate, living in Vancouver, if I had the choice of a) working for the next 20 years, in Vancouver, to save for retirement outside my home or b) being retired anywhere else after selling my multi-million dollar overpriced Vancouver home - I would absolutely take option b).


I've been living in Vancouver since before it became nuts (well, as nuts as it is now). I bought a house in the late 90's thinking I was over stretched and it was a mistake, but it turned out to be the smartest financial move I ever made - just dumb luck. So the $3M is actually not including the real estate. I am planning to leave Vancouver but due to work obligations (I've got to sort of "earn out") I need to plan to stick it out here for at least another year, maybe two. So I'm not trying to bank on the house at this point. Who knows when the bubble is going to burst, it might be before I leave. Seems like the news stories of Vancouver being "over priced" are coming out with increased frequency these days.


----------



## Eclectic12

If the RE is worth so much where the plan is to move ASAP ... why wouldn't you sell then rent for the year or two?


Cheers


----------



## donzo

Eclectic12 said:


> If the RE is worth so much where the plan is to move ASAP ... why wouldn't you sell then rent for the year or two?
> Cheers


Oh, well, you know... young kids, got schools, friends, etc. We like our house. Rental market is also crazy. Don't want to move twice in 1 year, that kind of thing. Who knows, maybe real estate will just keep going up. Yeah, I guess the real reason is I'm lazy


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## Eclectic12

I suspect that if it stayed flat for a year or two until you sold, you wouldn't lose any sleep! :biggrin:


Cheers


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## avrex




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