# Windows 7 - too many updates?



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Seems like EVERY TIME I turn off my computer lately, I get the msg. not to power off because windows is installing an update ( usually just 1 of 1). But it's happening A LOT. I have Windows 7 Professional. Anyone else finding the same? Anything to be concerned about?


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## PSG (Nov 30, 2016)

Upgrade that to windows 10 or turn off the updates on the Settings.


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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> Seems like EVERY TIME I turn off my computer lately, I get the msg. not to power off because windows is installing an update ( usually just 1 of 1). But it's happening A LOT. I have Windows 7 Professional. Anyone else finding the same? Anything to be concerned about?


Off Topic: And that's pretty much the reason I got my daughter an Android tablet/keyboard device ... does everything she needs ... browsing, emails, word processing, movies ... without all the ridiculous overhead ... and complies with my philosophy ... just get what you need


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have updates on notify. When it gets in the range of 10, I allow the process. Mostly security definitions file. I also shut down Thunderbird and Chrome and run CrapCleaner at the same time. About once every three weeks.

Performance definitely improves for a while.


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## zylon (Oct 27, 2010)

Also off topic:

Frequent updating is one of the reasons that I haven't fired up my Windows 7 for a month, and thinking of selling it.

My MacBook is pure pleasure to use;
but I do run CCleaner once per week to optimize performance.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

rikk2 said:


> Off Topic: And that's pretty much the reason I got my daughter an Android tablet/keyboard device ... does everything she needs ... browsing, emails, word processing, movies ... without all the ridiculous overhead ... and complies with my philosophy ... just get what you need


"just get what you need" - my desktop, with the win 7, cost me $130 at a computer liquidation store...so, cant complain too much, and it works fine,for me...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

jargey3000 said:


> "just get what you need" - my desktop, with the win 7, cost me $130 at a computer liquidation store...so, cant complain too much, and it works fine,for me...


Nothing wrong with that or getting updates. Updates are normal and required. A lot of them relate to security and are there to help you. The free upgrade to Win 10 is over. I have both Win 7 Pro and Win 10 and use Win 7 99% of the time. Can't see any advantage in using Win10 and it has some useless stuff that just clutters things up.

Don't know why you are getting so many updates, but maybe it is just catching up. I only get one update every now and then.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

choose the "choose windows updates" option

updates present but don't install. Instead they wait to be selected. One does have to read the descriptive blurbs since for a while this spring microsoft was surreptitiously trying to send windows 10 even though i was doing everything i could to stop win 10 (in the end i succeeded) (but the battle was exhausting)

i rarely install optional updates. If anyone knows a way to remove them entirely from my computer (win 7 user) i would be forever grateful to hear about it. I did find an elaborate instruction guide that directed me to the storage folder of uninstalled windows updates that lurks deep in the C drive. I did follow the instructions to delete one update that had recently arrived. However the deletion didn't work.

i gave up trying - working in the hidden files alarms me - so for now i've just taken to "hiding" the optional updates i don't want.

.


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## stantistic (Sep 19, 2015)

Jargey - FYI my Win 7 installed 19 updates from Nov. 12 to Nov. 29.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> choose the "choose windows updates" option


It's a little more involved Humble. I have WIN7 Home Premium. I got annoyed and managed to find where to turn off any automatic Microsoft updates, which were becoming a real pain.

To disable Microsoft automatic updates, you have to:

1. Go to the *START* button
2.select "*all programs*" and scroll through them to find " *Windows Update*"
3. select "*change settings*"
4. look for the option line box " *check for update, let me choose whether to download and install them*"
5. scroll down on the little v arrow (downwards pointing arrow) in that box and select the other options available
The one you want to click on is: 
*"never check for updates" (not recommended)*

if you want to stop being pestered with these updates...

Here is the online instructions:


> Click Start > Control Panel > System and Security > Turn automatic updating on or off.
> 
> In the Important updates menu, *select "Never check for updates" *.
> 
> ...


 BTW you can also* access this option from the CONTROL PANEL*


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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

jargey3000 said:


> "just get what you need" - my desktop, with the win 7, cost me $130 at a computer liquidation store...so, cant complain too much, and it works fine,for me...


Fwiw ... I have 2 Win 10 platforms, updates are pretty much transparent, as they were when they were Win 7 ... yes, I install the updates, they're put out for a reason. For my adult daughter though, sharing a very low bandwidth connection with neighbors, the updating bandwidth, time to download, and OS memory size suggested to me that Android/tablet would be the more appropriate technology for her ... also for about $130


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## NorthKC (Apr 1, 2013)

I've noticed that Windows 7 updates do not occur if you operate your laptop on battery but as soon as you plug it in while active, the updates seem to pop out of nowhere.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> To disable Microsoft automatic updates, you have to:
> 
> 1. Go to the *START* button
> 2. select "*all programs*" and scroll through them to find " *Windows Update*"
> ...




thankx carverman but i think it's dangerous to totally disable all windows updates. As you post above, microsoft recommends against this option. Disabling all updates requires a windows user to visit MS website to check for new security releases once a week, then select what he needs, then download & install ...

but most folks are not going to do that. It'll be a case of Out of Sight, Out of Mind.

however the security updates are necessary. They are critical for, well, security, duh. Not 100% are necessary, but most of them are. This is why i believe the best option to choose is the one that shows all updates waiting in a batch to be installed, but allows the user to pick & choose among them.

btw i was inquiring for something quite a bit different. I was inquiring how to remove presented-but-unwanted updates - for example some optional updates - from the computer. Before they are installed. These unwanted updates are the ones that get left over after the picking & choosing.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but CCleaner can be used to optimize your computer, it scans the registry for unneeded entries as well as deletes temporary files including downloaded update files if they are still around.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Updates are done every other Tuesday sometimes you will notice at the end of a week a patch is launched that's because the update from the previous Tuesday was the wrong one released and had a bug. In October I was traveling and noticed that I could not log in to a WiFi connection every attempt to enter the security code was rejected, after looking at it I saw that there had been an update a few day's before and I did a restore to a point just before the update that fixed the problem.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

bgc_fan said:


> Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but CCleaner can be used to optimize your computer, it scans the registry for unneeded entries as well as deletes temporary files including downloaded update files if they are still around.



thankx i definitely will try this. If it works at all, i don't imagine it will remove the unwanted updates that i've hidden. Of course, i could unhide them, or some of them, as an experiment.

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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

The Win 10 (or 7) Disk Cleanup works just fine for me ... for example using Disk Cleanup/More Options I can save 1.7 MB by removing CCleaner that I never use ... okokok ... :hopelessness:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> sometimes you will notice at the end of a week a patch is launched that's because the update from the previous Tuesday was the wrong one released and had a bug. In October I was traveling and noticed that *I could not log in to a WiFi connection every attempt to enter the security code was rejected, after looking at it I saw that there had been an update a few day's before and I did a restore to a point just before the update that fixed the problem*.


And here lies the problem with these automatic updates from MS..some may may be relevant to your computer to use in your particular configuration of software applications... and others not. 
They WILL all go in as a batch update, if the appropriate software platforms and/or layers/apps are in your PC *whether you need them or not.* 

The layman PC user doesn't have a clue if any of these updates are useless to you or even possibly screw up what you had datafilled ....as in your case ..your Wi_Fi connection setup.

MS, of course bear no responsibility if one of their batch supplement updates screws up something in your computer..they always advise you to examine the update list, read the documentation associated with each
of their updates... and a*pply the ones that you think are relevant to your use of YOUR COMPUTER.*. 

How many novice PC users are going to be able to decypher what all that mumbo jumbo they include with each update and what it is supposed to do for you? ..*and if there is a BUG in one of their updates, then you are 
LEFT ON YOUR OWN to trouble shoot the problem* (if you even can), *and fix it yourself*... wasting your precious time troubleshooting something inside your datafill, that was working before one of their update9s) were applied automatically...and inadvertently changed things so now it doesn't work.

Then you have to find out the cause OR pull out the troublesome update to restore your OS to what is was..before their specific batch update was applied.

In Win7, the OS is stable enough by now that you don;'t need every update MS supplies.

In my line of work, we used to say "*IF IT AIN'T BROKE...DON'T FIX IT*!" by having random updates applied.

This is why I* STOPPED MS from applying updates automatically*..I don't like someone messing with my computer..;even it is Microsoft.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

^+1 Yes, most will be aghast but the first thing I did 2 years ago when we got a pair of Win7 Dell's (just ahead of Win8 becoming the standard OS) is turn off MS updating, get rid of McAfee and install Norton. Other than Norton, the only software updates are those I choose (adode, firefox occasionally, etc). Two years later they run all apps just fine, respond quickly and have never had a virus. This was the same approach prior with Vista, XP, and Win95.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

rikk2 said:


> The Win 10 (or 7) Disk Cleanup works just fine for me ... for example using Disk Cleanup/More Options I can save 1.7 MB by removing CCleaner that I never use ... okokok ... :hopelessness:



thankx rikk, Disk Cleanup is another good suggestion. I had to refresh my knowledge of what cleanup does vs what de-frag does but cleanup it is ...

the problem - as stated - is that it's dangerous to block all windows updates. This means that the user will either (a) need to repeatedly search the microsoft website for new updates in order to see if any are critical security updates that he truly needs; or else (b) do nothing while his OS deteriorates into a dog's breakfast of invasive malware.

"choosing" microsoft options means looking over the batch of notifications that MS sends out at regular intervals. Each batch is relatively small, especially for someone who rarely accepts an optional update. 

even a poor dumb kitchen crumb like myself can read an update description & decide if it's necessary or not. So far my working rule is Install Critical Updates.

the block-all-updates windows operator is going to have to read all the update descriptions on the microsoft website website anyhow - or risk letting his OS self-destruct from malware - so IMHO it's more efficient to work from the small batch of notifications MS sends out every couple of weeks. 

i usually do one or 2 updates at a time. Every couple of days. Takes no time whatsoever, only a minute or 2. I actually find the drill to be a worthwhile learning experience .each:

.


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## 319905 (Mar 7, 2016)

Fwiw I've been using Windows Defender and it's predecessors no problems ... just to say, I too have used System Restore on the rare occasion that I installed something (I say I because Windows is a DAC OS) I shouldn't have ... and because I no longer have the interest or patience to find and remove such stuff ... too easy :victorious:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> ^+1 Yes, most will be aghast but the first thing I did 2 years ago when we got a pair of Win7 Dell's (just ahead of Win8 becoming the standard OS) is turn off MS updating, get rid of McAfee and install Norton ... Two years later they run all apps just fine, respond quickly and have never had a virus



i'm not aghast but i am surprised that you've never had a windows update since you bought the machine 2 years ago. Haven't they brought out service pack 1 since then? but you would not have SP 1 though?

what is the thinking, that norton alone keeps all malware at bay? but if this would be true, what would be the point of having win7.

because theoreticallyi speaking, a person who would never install any updates whatsoever ought to be content with WinXP forever, no? in spite of the fact that microsoft stopped supporting the system a couple years ago.

.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

The OS is Win7 with SP 1, Updates were installed: 5/2/2014.
My thinking is that the operating system I buy at the time works just fine. In my experience, future updates simply bloat and degrade overall performance. 
It is not the lack of future MS support that I have found to be an issue but that applications eventually do not support/run on older OS's without problems. By then however I am generally ready to purchase newer technology (faster, greater memory, more compact, usb3, ssd, etc.).
Malware as never been an issue on our two laptops. Part of that is having up-to-date virus protection, part of it is practicing 'safe surfing', not touching unknown emails etc.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Just had a look at my Win 7 update history - I think I counted 40 updates during November. All but one or two were updates of Windows Security Essential virus definition files. If you are using WSE, you definitely need these! If you use something else, that will also need regular virus definition updates. 

Once in a while, maybe once a month, there is a Windows 7 update. Otherwise all other non WSE files are also security related. Makes no sense to not receive these updates.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Just had a look at my Win 7 update history - I think I counted 40 updates during November. All but one or two were updates of Windows Security Essential virus definition files. If you are using WSE, you definitely need these! If you use something else, that will also need regular virus definition updates.


But IF you are *not using Windows Defender*, you don't need these virus definition updates either.



> Once in a while, maybe once a month, there is a Windows 7 update. Otherwise all other non WSE files are also security related. Makes no sense to not receive these updates.


Agree, if it's free, and just virus definitions, then there should be no harm in getting these.

I don't use Windows Defender. I pay a yearly subscription for either AVG or Norton Internet security and so far haven't had any virus attack issues.

I also have a paid subsciption to MalwareBytes malware hunter and anti-exploit. The anti-exploit is to prevent ransomware,from getting in.
Carleton University here in Ottawa had a ransomware attack on one of their main servers just a few days ago!
Can't be too careful these days..*cybercrime is on the rise*! I also back up all my files just in case, a ransomware cyberattack happens to my PC, as I refuse to pay ransom and they also want it paid in untraceable BITCOINs.
*
READ THIS IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME*... 
so you still think MS Windows Defender will keep you safe? You're dreaming!



> Carleton University confirms its IT network was attacked by ransomware — a type of computer virus that uses encryption to effectively hold files hostage in exchange for payment — but said it didn't pay any ransom.





> A graduate student at the university emailed CBC Tuesday to say the *attackers asked for payment in bitcoin, a digital currency that is difficult to trace*. According to a message he saw on a school computer, the attackers are asking for either two bitcoin per machine, or *39 bitcoin total to release the encrypted files* — the *latter equalling nearly $38,941 at today's rate on the popular Bitcoin exchange Coinbase.*





> In June of this year, the University of Calgary was hit by a similar attack. In that case the university paid $20,000 to regain access to its systems.





> Public Safety Canada recommends that victims not pay the ransom requested by their attackers, as there is no guarantee that the locked files will be released, and payment may only encourage more criminals to adopt the tactic.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/carleton-university-hack-ransomware-update-1.3872889


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> i'm not aghast but i am surprised that you've never had a windows update since you bought the machine 2 years ago. Haven't they brought out service pack 1 since then? but you would not have SP 1 though?


he should have service pack 1..all he has to do is go to his computer icon and select PROPERTIES. That should show the details of his
computer's SYSTEM PROTECTION. 



> what is the thinking, that norton alone keeps all malware at bay?


Norton internet security is great, but it really a deluxe antivirus tool. Malware these days comes in all sorts of permutations..trojans, worms, keyloggers etc etc.



> *What is malware and how can we prevent it?*
> 
> Malware is an abbreviated term meaning “malicious software.” T*his is software that is specifically designed to gain access or damage a computer without the knowledge of the owner*. There are various types of malware including spyware, keyloggers, true viruses, worms, or any type of malicious code that infiltrates a computer.
> 
> ...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> But IF you are *not using Windows Defender*, you don't need these virus definition updates either.


Sorry, you lost me there. Wasn't jargey talking about Windows 7? (maybe the thread has 'developed' from there ) Virus protection was not included in Win 7, but many downloaded the free Windows Security Essentials (WSE). Windows Defender would be for Windows8/10 no? If jargey has WSE installed, he will get virus definition updates either automatically of when he chooses. Presumably those who have Defender will get it's definitions. But not both. If you choose an aftermarket virus protection like, for example, Avast, then you will get it's definition updates. But no reason to have more than one virus checker and for Windows &, WSE is free. (Real time MWB is worth having and even installing and running the free non-real time version is worthwhile. The current paid real time version is kind of expensive.

I have the Malwarebytes(MWB) full version (but not exploits) that at one time was free and it provides real time protection. It too gets updates but they are not Windows Updates. MWB frequently pops up saying it has blocked something. These are often Skype related because Skype has some servers in areas known for malicious content.

Having proper offline diskdrive and data backups should be sufficient to counter ransomware. But I somehow doubt individuals would be targeted.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Sorry, you lost me there ... Windows Defender would be for Windows8/10 no?


Work is on Win7 where Windows Defender is in use, so this looked strange to me.

Checking Wiki for Windows Defender ...


> It was first released as a free antispyware program download for Windows XP, shipped with Windows Vista and Windows 7 and made into a full antivirus program replacing Microsoft Security Essentials as part of Windows 8 and later versions.


I can also find file download sites advertising Windows Defender for download that say WinXP is a supported OS with an date added in Nov 2006.




agent99 said:


> ... If jargey has WSE installed, he will get virus definition updates either automatically of when he chooses. Presumably those who have Defender will get it's definitions. But not both ...


I'd have to check ... the choices I can recall are "automatic download & install", "download and let me choose", "check & let me choose" or "never". There's also a check box for treating "recommended updates" the same as "important" updates.

I seem to recall "important" updates for things like pointing devices as well as wifi hardware so it seems to me that where one wants only the definitions, it is a manual selection/update process.




agent99 said:


> ... Having proper offline diskdrive and data backups should be sufficient to counter ransomware. But I somehow doubt individuals would be targeted.


Question is, how many are operating under the old "just backup the data" where they are at risk of losing the most recent files as well as a ton of time to get the OS and apps back up to par?

Keep in mind that a system backup from what most people I talk to is typically to attached HDs that are also going to be encrypted.

As for "not targeting indivduals" ... a one person charity for dogs was the first instance I heard of for ransomware. The code is cheap so why would those looking to profit bother to filter for "acceptable" targets when there is not additional cost? This seems similar to saying the robocalls with fake CRA penalties will worry about ensuring the call is to someone with money instead of a wide spread net.


Cheers


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

agent99 said:


> Sorry, you lost me there. Wasn't jargey talking about Windows 7? (maybe the thread has 'developed' from there ) Virus protection was not included in Win 7, but many downloaded the free *Windows Security Essentials* (WSE). , WSE is free. (Real time MWB is worth having and even installing and running the free non-real time version is worthwhile. The current paid real time version is kind of expensive.


I have windows 7 Home premium. 




> I have the Malwarebytes(MWB) full version (but not exploits) that at one time was free and it provides real time protection. It too gets updates but they are not Windows Updates. MWB frequently pops up saying it has blocked something. These are often Skype related because Skype has some servers in areas known for malicious content.


 Good to know. I have Skype but rarely use it . I keep my userid OFFLINE and log in only if I have to.



> Having proper offline diskdrive and data backups should be sufficient to counter ransomware. But I somehow doubt individuals would be targeted.


You never know these days. I have a offline `1 terabyte external hard drive (Western Digital) and back up important files and any pictures of me, my carving hobbies, or my family on 8gb flash drives for convenience.

I also have a 3 year subscription to Malwarebytes anti-exploit. Not taking a chance these days with cyber crime on the rise.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Question is, how many are operating under the old "just backup the data" where they are at risk of losing the most recent files as well as a ton of time to get the OS and apps back up to par?
> 
> Keep in mind that a system backup from what *most people I talk to is typically to attached HDs that are also going to be encrypted.
> *


*

While the internal hard drive could be affected by ransomware encryption, the external hard drive which I always detach the USB from my computer contains the OS as well as ALL the files as updated on the last HD Image backup. 

That way the hackers can't get into my external hardrive even if they manage to get in my PC 

I prefer to pay for my protection (Norton Internet Security, Malwarebytes, Malware anti-Exploit, because my PC is vulnerable being online all the time. I never shut it down. 

I just don't trust the free MS security software as the hackers may know how to get around it anyway and
that just gives you a false feeling of being fully protected when you really aren't.*


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Eclectic12 said:


> Work is on Win7 where Windows Defender is in use, so this looked strange to me.
> 
> Checking Wiki for Windows Defender ...
> 
> I can also find file download sites advertising Windows Defender for download that say WinXP is a supported OS with an date added in Nov 2006.


For what it's worth:
In the early 2000s, Microsoft acquired another software company that was developing a program called GIANT AntiSpyware and subsequently rebranded it as Microsoft AntiSpyware and then later Windows Defender. It may have been included as part of some versions of Windows Vista and 7 but it wasn't included with my Pro version of Windows 7 but is on my Wife's Vista laptop. I recall there being some issue about the programs that MS were bundling, so they may have required a separate free download for some components. That early version of Windows Defender was just a spyware program. It did not provide for virus detection or removal. 

Microsoft later released Microsoft Security Essentials as a full featured virus protection product. The new Windows Defender included with Windows 8/10, has the same underlying anti-malware engine as WSE and the virus definitions of the two are the same. Neither are considered the best, but being free, they ensure average users have reasonable protection.

In summary, early Windows Defender although it had same name, was quite a different animal from current Windows Defender.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> MS, of course bear no responsibility if one of their batch supplement updates screws up something in your computer..they always advise you to examine the update list, read the documentation associated with each
> of their updates... and a*pply the ones that you think are relevant to your use of YOUR COMPUTER.*.


On Sunday night, I spent about 2hrs updating the summary of our investments. I use Open Office, but save in xls format because that was used when spreadsheet was originally designed. 

All of a sudden, my computer just shut down. No message or warning that it was going to do that. When it restarted, I received a message saying something like unable to recover corrupted file (perhaps because of format?). OO had been saving my file as I worked on it. But now it was gone! I checked in location where backups are stored - nothing there. Basically my 2hrs work had gone. Then a Windows message popped up saying updates had been installed and to click here to see which ones  So that's what did it!*/*?!

I have now disabled automatic updates! And I spent last night redoing my update. Arghh!!...

Anyway - good idea to turn off automatic updates. In Win 7, go to Control Panel - Last item should be Windows Update. Click on that, then Change Settings. Now set to download updates but let me decide when to install. (or whatever suits you)


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## dwyanec (Dec 29, 2016)

I agree to this. To avoid, it can always be turned off to avoid having wrong configuration.


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## zylon (Oct 27, 2010)

*no point here - just a short story.*

For the first time in many months, I started up my *Windows 7* today.

Just wanted to do some off-line work, so didn't connect it to interweb.

Spent about an hour working on files, with tower moaning and groaning the whole time; which is why I quit using it to begin with.

When I went to shut down, get the message _"do not turnoff or unplug while update is being installed"_.

How could it be updating and installing without an internet connection? Confirms my suspicion that Windows just spins wheels and makes grinding noises in an attempt to make us think it's actually doing something.









https://dragonmum2.wordpress.com/tag/evil-vista/


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

zylon said:


> For the first time in many months, I started up my *Windows 7* today.
> 
> Just wanted to do some off-line work, so didn't connect it to interweb.
> 
> ...





a poor pie crust hesitates to speak in the presence of awesome OS system experts such as some cmffers, but this is what i've heard from real life persons who i consider to be experts.

first, MS can download but not install win 7 updates onto your machine. Click for updates on All Programs, after days or weeks of non-use you should see a page full of updates waiting to be installed. They don't need an internet connection because they've already arrived. All they need is for you to boot up. The minute you startup, the updates begin installing themselves, exactly as you've experienced.

next - most importantly of all - the expert folks say that if you shut down or unplug your machine during update installation, you risk to destroy your Win 7 system entirely. 

i could not believe this the first time i heard it. What, such a risk & microsoft tells you nothing? there's no proper warning with explanation anywhere? this seemed irrational to me.

incredulous, i asked a couple other experts & they said the same thing. Do not shut down during update installation, there's a risk you'll damage your system badly, they said. 

as an alternative to automatic updates (which zylon appears to have) one can choose the option that goes something like Advise me of Updates but Do not Install. This works for me because i can reject the optional updates that don't apply to my system. But one should review what's available regularly & install critical updates promptly, i believe.

there's another option that would probably block windows update downloads entirely. The win 7 user would not receive any notifications. This means that a Win user must go to the MS website to collect critical updates on his own initiative. IMHO with this option there's too much risk that a lazy party won't do this job properly, ie regularly.


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