# College Conspiracy



## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

If you haven't watched this yet, you might be interested.

Its a short (1 hour) documentary on Education, Careers, and the US Economy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE&feature=pyv&ad=6739540474&kw=stock


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

rotfl. This is like denying evolution.

If there is one thing every economists agrees on and every study ever conducted has shown its that every year of education equates to a significant increase in ones lifetime earnings. 

On average, those who dont go to college do far worse at nearly every measure of success in life.

It's a truism like gravity.


The report titled "The Big Payoff: Educational Attainment and Synthetic Estimates of Work-Life Earnings" (.pdf) reveals that over an adult's working life, high school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.2 million; those with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million; and people with a master's degree, $2.5 million.

graph

more graphs

even more graphs

In fact you cant find one that shows anything but a major increase with education. 

These type of tin foil hat, Loose Change, junk videos are so infuriating.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

It is not like denying evolution.

They make some decent points about agricultural jobs, pharmacist jobs, etc.

You have to take it with a grain of salt. Obviously not everyone can just become a dropout.


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> It is not like denying evolution.
> 
> They make some decent points about agricultural jobs, pharmacist jobs, etc.
> 
> You have to take it with a grain of salt. Obviously not everyone can just become a dropout.


Ya markets shift. 

Not exactly a SHOCKING conspiracy riddled discovery. Adam Smith talked about it!


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

clovis8 said:


> Not exactly a SHOCKING conspiracy riddled discovery.


You're right. The guy that made the video wants to get some followers and people to sign up for his website/newsletter. That was the main purpose.

However, I still find it interesting to watch those documentaries. (even if he was a silver pusher )


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I wouldn't consider Bill Gross, of PIMCO to be a "tin foil" guy. 

http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/School-Daze-School-Daze-Good-Old-Golden-Rule-Days.aspx


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

Penn and Teller did that topic in a much more entertaining way
(NSFW, but hilarious)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_m0uhToV94


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

That there is a lot of bad education does not mean that education is useless. It's an argument to do it better, not to stop educating at all.

Of course, the qualifications arms-race is pretty misguided. Many jobs that ask for a university degree really do not require it.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Penn & Teller said one thing best IMO, college isn't bullshit, but the price of college is bullshit. Tuition keeps increasing and there's no guarantee of work and a rosy economy once you graduate.

You even have non-accredited 100% scam institutions like Trump University that know this and try to take advantage of people.

LinkedIn shows statistics on each company. Click for example Scotiabank and you can see the demographic breakdown - the largest business segment, employee work experience, degree vs non-degree, most popular schools, etc.

http://www.linkedin.com/company/scotiabank/statistics


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Hah this is telling

University of Mumbai is in the top 5 schools at JP Morgan, they must do a lot of campus recruiting there

http://www.linkedin.com/company/j-p-morgan/statistics


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

I think the culture we have created around education is flawed. Not everyone can be top of the food chain. 
Everyone should try college, but, the colleges should maintain high standards, deliver a quality product, mimic the workplace they are prepping for, and have a mechanism to let those who do not belong "fail with dignity".
Right now the community colleges in Canada are starting what the high schools started some time ago... putting safety nets in place to pass those who invested minimal effort, and just aren't very sharp, or aren't ready for a college education.
Not sure where Universities are with that but the colleges sure are striving for touchy-feely...
And that is out of touch, because the work place isn't soft and fuzzy.
The best college programs are fighting the "fluffy" administration every step of the way, and it is rewarded with strong industry partnerships.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

It really comes down to how a program is run, but liberal arts tends to have the most jobless graduates and graduates in fields unrelated to their studies. If for example you go into a Computer Engineering program at my university and you're not dropping courses like bombs chances are pretty high you can at least get a 6-12 month paid stint with said industry partners.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

See in a bank where the biggest per capita job function is General/Administration, they should not be asking for at minimum "any university degree". You don't need a 4 year degree in Political Science or Sociology or Equity Studies so you can shuffle some papers around.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Compare that to a productive industry like IT

Google's largest per capita job function is R&D

http://www.linkedin.com/company/google/statistics

Here it actually is more important to have at minimum an industry related degree


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

My reflections on college are that it's become a place where they take your money. 

Unfortunately the criteria required to pass the course were uhmm, breathing and not showing up too drunk to write at the exam.. 

The second year of college I didn't even buy the books, I just borrowed them and read them once. The emphasis of the place was to graduate as many people as possible. 

Even take the mortgage broker course I took a while back. 80% of the questions did not even require me to have a calculator. This is because the answers were multiple choice and would include 3 throw away answers. 

So the educational system creates degrees that mean absolutely nothing and cost a lot of money. Still you kind of need one, but I'm not sure why. 

If I had a call to learn something these days, I'd just buy the books and learn what I need. No more sheepskins. 

The problem with higher education is that they have a monopoly. I'd like to see a system where people have the option of challenging the exam. 

Granted I'm not exactly normal so things that are easy for me may not be easy for others. I considered college to be a complete waste of time, I could have covered the material in about 2 months rather than 2 years. Several of the people who enrolled did so to learn to speak english. Sadly they were not the students who had problems. 

R


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

These two charts sum everything up nicely. Liberal arts has turned the reputation of Western universities into diploma mills for degrees that are hardly worth the paper they're printed on.

*Percentage distribution of university graduates, by field of study, 1992 and 2007*









*International students as a share of university graduates, by field of study, 2001 and 2006*









Source: Trends in University Graduation, 1992 to 2007 http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-x/2009005/article/11050-eng.htm#d


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

every community college program in Ontario is reviewed by a Key Performance Indicator process.
One of the questions students and/or parents should ask about before dishing out megabucks is how a program ranks in KPI.
(I'm proud to say I teach in the program ranked highest in our college, and top 10 in Ontario)
The KPI system involves feedack from current students, graduates, and employers. It is fairly comprehensive. 

Another way to approach college is to start at the workplace..... If a person has some idea what they want to do...go talk to the people that do it.... ask them where they hire from

Seems obvious, but I suspect the percentage of people doing this is very low. 

We deal with employers that only hire from our program. You can go take an identical program at another college with great instructors and a solid curriculum, but that big employer won't consider you. They just invested a million in donations of gear to our school, so they won't be hiring from that other college....


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

I went to look up the KPI for my program, and I'm not surprised they don't list any; however, I did find this gem - the "I want a General Degree" or "I want to join a Public-sector Labour Union" bandwagon










Edit: These are Graduate school metrics. So Faculty of Education = OISE. I'm not sure why they mostly exclude undergraduate program performance metrics, the data are probably too embarrassing.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I think you hit the nail on the head, hystat. College needs to become more integrated with employers, whether by apprenticeships like in the trades, or by direct investment and recruiting by the employer.

The current practice of getting a degree first and then looking for work later is risky and inefficient. It basically amounts to gambling and is likely a huge deterrent for some people who might otherwise pursue higher education.

And don't get me started on other things like student loans, or the ridiculous cost of textbooks. First of all, books shouldn't need to be thrown out every time there's a small revision. Instead of using bound books, the pages should be in binders so you can remove and update the relevant pages, instead of having to buy a new book.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> First of all, books shouldn't need to be thrown out every time there's a small revision. Instead of using bound books, the pages should be in binders so you can remove and update the relevant pages, instead of having to buy a new book.


Or every student could just get an iPad like what pilots are doing now for their flight pubs, so that updates are painless and free

Post secondary education at professional institutions makes absolute sense even if the degrees aren't necessarily related to jobs. It's only supposed to develop critical thinking and confidence etc etc etc. It's a real shame though our schools have been corrupted by greed and profit but such is capitalism with little gov regulation. Now we have schools misleading customers to spend far more than necessary and providing them with the least educational value possible. Hence 95% of students in NA spend more time performing keg stands and orgies than reading.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

nathan79 said:


> And don't get me started on other things like student loans, or the ridiculous cost of textbooks. First of all, books shouldn't need to be thrown out every time there's a small revision. Instead of using bound books, the pages should be in binders so you can remove and update the relevant pages, instead of having to buy a new book.


This would work if the professor teaching your course or their buddies hadn't written their own book to count towards the university's publication quota. Usually they have a special interest (#1 keeping their jobs, #2 royalties) in writing an extra chapter every year or two and reselling rephrased and repackaged material to newly enrolled students.



> Post secondary education at professional institutions makes absolute sense even if the degrees aren't necessarily related to jobs. It's only supposed to develop critical thinking and confidence etc etc etc.


If our pre-post-secondary curriculum wasn't so watered down, I think most people could develop critical thinking skills in high school. Confidence is established when you have good relations with people, you can gain that at any point in life.



> It's a real shame though our schools have been corrupted by greed and profit but such is capitalism with little gov regulation. Now we have schools misleading customers to spend far more than necessary and providing them with the least educational value possible. Hence 95% of students in NA spend more time performing keg stands and orgies than reading.


Touche. I don't have a problem with education. I have a problem with high tuition fees and the optional bullshit ancillary fees you have to opt out of every single semester which are basically legitimised theft. Western society is getting dumber. It wasn't long ago Rutgers invited Snooki to speak for 2 hours and her parting message was, "study hard but party harder".


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> The second year of college I didn't even buy the books


I did the same thing.

It's really all just BS. (and no, I am not being sarcastic)

You have intelligent people, and you have people that don't get it. You can know within 10 seconds of speaking to someone if they're smart or not, if they have their head on straight, and if they know what they're talking about.

I've seen people with 3 degrees that are completely out of it. Surprised they could even tie their shoes to get to work in the morning.

I dropped out, and I know I'll need to go back and finish. But it's just so sad that it is what it is.

And yes, College was easier than highschool. At least in highschool you had to read the books 

I had this one class that was based solely off the textbook, Tests, Exams, everything. I never bought the textbook, never borrowed one, never even looked inside of one. Somehow managed a 78%. Oh, and I only showed up for 4 classes. Day 1, Test 1, Test 2, Exam.

Its so ridiculous, its actually discouraging and painful to be educated, and that almost hurts more than the money you're paying out of pocket.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

ddkay said:


> If our pre-post-secondary curriculum wasn't so watered down, I think most people could develop critical thinking skills in high school. Confidence is established when you have good relations with people, you can gain that at any point in life.


I just took 2 examples you can't say that society doesn't benefit from higher education. We just don't need everyone paying the outrageous bills to be considered employable. I never thought I got much use out of University until correcting people's paperwork who never went etc or discussing some topics. There's no need to abolish post secondary education is all I'm saying

Universities aren't even supposed to prepare you for employment, that's just what people expect..


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> You have intelligent people, and you have people that don't get it. You can know within 10 seconds of speaking to someone if they're smart or not, if they have their head on straight, and if they know what they're talking about.


In my trade a great deal of money was wasted on training only to find people were unsuitable over half the time (highest failure rate in the military) People were screened by grades/physical test/aptitude test/interviews/initial training etc. You can't tell all aptitudes in 10 seconds. People are good at different things and I believe in 90% attitude 10% aptitude after seeing many people fail different things in life. I've also seen people switch on all of a sudden, or change/wakeup or maybe realize they're smarter or have a different talent than I first saw..

The fact that people can pass courses effortlessly is BS though. I also think school limits people's creativeness, as they're taught a specific school of though when there are always many ways to skin a cat


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

I got accepted to three university engineering programs..but opted for the local community college. since it was local I could live at home, ..Co-op programs pretty much paid for all of my education expenses and the classes were smaller. I also had the option of a year and a half course and getting an engineering degree afterwrds..... A big factor was two of my cousins had just graduated university and both had to go back to college in order to get a job....Currently making more money then I would have if I became an engineer since engineers are a dime a dozen these days...The biggest thing I think is course choices. To many people take courses where there is so much competition for so few jobs they stand no chance at success after they graduate. Sadly most mundane simple jobs require a post secondary education just to qualify even though their is no real need.(my current job included.... its mostly on the job training).....as far as books go i have a chemistry book I had only opened to put my name into but they said you had to have it for the class....I still have all my books because the money they buy them off you for.... I'd rather keep it ..would have been a 80% lost


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

A full 15% of Fortune 500 CEOs have Liberal arts degrees. 










Universities are not, and should never be, trade schools. You go to university to learn how to think.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Now Google the chart that shows how many Fortune 500 CEOs came from well-connected wealthy families. The most important social factors in a CEOs success are reputation, similarity, and trust.

Some reading for you:
> Self-categorization theory
> Similarity/Attraction Theory
> Inherited Wealth, Corporate Control and Economic Growth: The Canadian Disease


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> We just don't need everyone paying the outrageous bills to be considered employable.


That's the core of my argument too.


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## Helianthus (Oct 19, 2010)

University was most certainly a joke. How people flunked out, I have no idea. Every course I ever took, I learned the material in 24-48 hours before each exam. Cases or other projects were always done starting at midnight the night before they were due. Sure I wasn't in the top of my class but certainly still respectable (B+/9/3.30 depending on where you go to school). 

I could have easily condensed my entire 9 term university education in to one year, but then of course, they wouldn't have been able to milk tens of thousands of dollars out of me. 

As for books, what a crock of **** that was too. The first 2 years, I bought everything, only to find out (as mentioned) that the book was just being sold because the professor or his buddies wrote it and was minimally referenced. My last two years, I didn't buy a damn thing. I had a reasonable network of people who would circulate textbook notes and class note summaries. More than enough to get a respectable grade in the most efficient time possible. 

The whole education system is out of whack. Too worried about hurting peoples feelings, so they just keep lowering the bar so that it doesn't mean anything anymore. These days, you need a university degree for many entry level jobs, so people just keep stacking on education to stay ahead of the curve. In the end, it is only the education institutions that win.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

ddkay said:


> See in a bank where the biggest per capita job function is General/Administration, they should not be asking for at minimum "any university degree". You don't need a 4 year degree in Political Science or Sociology or Equity Studies so you can shuffle some papers around.


But it is proof of literacy and an ability to learn - something you can no longer be sure of in a high school graduate.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

1. In North America we have abdicated virtually all apprenticeship trainng to our community colleges. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad system, but it increases the demand for "college" education among the working population.

2. This is a classic example of an argument between statistical returns and individual returns. As clovis8 points out the merits of post-secondary education are statistically undeniable. But as OP and others point out there are countless cases where it isn't the best for individuals. Coleges churn out people trained for jobs for which there is no demand; college education is expensive (particularly in US); employers require "college training" as a screening process when it may not really be needed to do the job; etc.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> But it is proof of literacy and an ability to learn - something you can no longer be sure of in a high school graduate.


Multiple choice tests do not show proof of literacy or any in-depth knowledge of a subject, they are just a great way for testing on the cheap. Say for a 500 person course that costs $550 per person, the university pays $10,000 in human resources to teach and administer exams throughout the semester and receives $275,000 in tuition. Minimum resources and huge return. It's too bad universities aren't listed on the stock exchanges of the world.

A university does not primarly exist as an extension of high school, it exists for intellectual pursuits in specialized research as mandated by their financial endowments. The system is geared to reward research (see government grants). Hence, the publication quota given to professors. Hence, they are asked to throw courses together and teach for undergraduates in their spare time. In fact, I would say from my own experience with graduate students and professors that the teaching of students is something to be avoided whenever possible.

The solution isn't ignoring the problem with our primary and secondary schools, and pushing more people into colleges and universities. Address the problems in our primary and secondary schools. There is no good reason a high school graduate cannot be taught to read and write and extemporize. There is no good reason a high school graduate cannot obtain some hands-on experience in their preferred trade.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Far too many university graduates can't write, especially those in technical programs, but even those in areas of study that should require a lot of reading and writing to earn a degree.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Just thought of some derivative plays

John Wiley & Sons Inc (JW.A)
Reed Elsevier plc (ADR) (RUK)
The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc (MHP)


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## jagger (Jan 12, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhXKkswynC0

Watch this video, it makes some interesting points...

1. College tuition is rising 4x the cost of inflation,
2. College professors spend more time on research, less in the classroom,
3. Alot of their so-called "research" is meaningless, has no value,
4. Most prospects have no idea what their signing up for: they don't know anything about the program, the classroom experience, or the syllabus.
5. Most college don't disclose their failure rate to the public. Would you sign up for a program where 50% of the students are failing?

Feel free to watch the other parts in the series if you find the videos entertaining.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

School is a joke. But unfortunately it is needed (a lot of the time).


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

I think school for the sake of school is a joke. I think it's a waste of time to go to university just because it's what people expect. Unfortunatley though, if you don't go to university you exclude yourself from way too many jobs down the road.

I don't regret my time in university, but I definitely wasted the better part of the first 3.5 years there. Halfway through fourth year I decided to actually put some effort in and it paid off. Unfortunately, most people go through 4+ years doing the bare minimum, getting C's and then end up in a job that requires no education in the first place. 

Going back, I would recommend that before you go to university, you actually have to want to do it. If it takes 5 years working at a crappy dead-end job to make you realize you want something better, so be it, but by then you'll appreciate the opportunities school can open up, and will get way more out of it.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

Sadly most decent jobs ask for a post secondary education today..... even if it's unrelated to the job...an online accounting degree would probably be enough to qualify and at the very least it would help you understand some finances. I just looked up my program at my old college seems the tuition has almost doubled from when I was there in 2000....


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Dmoney,

Agreed on all accounts.

I was going to go to University, but chose College because:

A) It was cheaper
B) When I realized my distaste for school and that college was cheaper, my grades dropped so significantly that I could no longer get into University. (80's turned to 50's overnight)

In the end - I went to College and dropped out. And had I finished College, I would be in a worse position at the moment, with less money, more than likely a worse job (would have missed this opportunity at BMO) and more miserable.

If you like it - do it. If you need it - do it.

Otherwise, just stay far, far away.
I will probably go back in the future - to University - if I need it for career advancement.

I learned some real bullshit things in College. The most important thing I learned, though, is how bullshit the world can really be. That is one thing that post-secondary education can, and will, teach you without fail.

I think what made me drop out was when I found out there was actually a course titled "Vampires in Western Society".

I actually went to the front desk and said "What the **** is this?". I got a little bit of backlash for that, as expected. One of my heated 19 year old moments. But seriously.... give me a KitKat. What the hell kind of a course is that? I can at least have some appreciation for certain things like Fashion, because that _can_ make money and it does play a certain role in society. But.. VAMPIRES? Holy eff. Someone was watching too much Twilight. 

I think I should charge $500 for 13 classes. One class a week. I will call it "The Impact of Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy on Young Children in Western Society."

We will learn about the fat man in the red suit who makes presents and delivers them all around the globe in ONE night. And the tooth fairy, who gives you money when you lose teeth.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> I will probably go back in the future - to University - if I need it for career advancement.


You probably won't need to go back to University to do very well within the financial sector. The beauty is that BMO will probably pay for all the necessary courses, and anything else you can do yourself (CSC, CFA, CFP etc.)

I found networking helped me land a job in the financial world that grades and education alone wouldn't have done. Although I only had the networking opportunity because of a school related event, I'm sure had I spent 5 years working my way up in a bank, I'd probably be in the same place right now.

Two different ways to the same end, neither is necessarily better. To each his own.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Yeah, I just wish that I hadn't paid for my IFIC and CSC myself, but what's done is done.

And yes, but you'd have a lot more free $$$ if you went straight to the bank instead of forking out $ for schooling.

I'd prefer to work. I don't mind working. School is disastrous, though, and in some ways can be a very bad influence when surrounded by all those party-goers! It can sometimes be hard to say "No" to the good times.


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## jagger (Jan 12, 2011)

Dmoney said:


> You probably won't need to go back to University to do very well within the financial sector. The beauty is that BMO will probably pay for all the necessary courses, and anything else you can do yourself (CSC, CFA, CFP etc.)
> 
> I found networking helped me land a job in the financial world that grades and education alone wouldn't have done. Although I only had the networking opportunity because of a school related event, I'm sure had I spent 5 years working my way up in a bank, I'd probably be in the same place right now.
> 
> Two different ways to the same end, neither is necessarily better. To each his own.


You should be able to pick up specific skills required for banking or accounting in a 2 year program. Why are trades schools, vocational schools, and 2 year programs looked down upon? Alot of the specific skills that employers are looking for, shouldn't require a 4 year hiatus, where half your time is wasted on liberal studies to become a "well rounded individual".

Some of the brightest people ever, never graduated from college or university: Bill Gates, Henry Ford, John D Rockefeller to name a few. Plus Bill Gates has stated that credentials don't mean much. Some of the programmers that Microsoft hires in Asia, don't officially have a "degree", but they have specific programming skills that Microsoft requires.


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

jagger said:


> You should be able to pick up specific skills required for banking or accounting in a 2 year program. Why are trades schools, vocational schools, and 2 year programs looked down upon? Alot of the specific skills that employers are looking for, shouldn't require a 4 year hiatus, where half your time is wasted on liberal studies to become a "well rounded individual".


I would advocate apprenticeship-like programs for the majority of professions. The most I learned was from relevant summer jobs and extracurricular activities that immersed me in my field. The classroom just isn't a great way to learn most things, actually doing it is. 

Accounting should be learned from an accountant, on the job. Banking, journalism, computer programming, engineering could all be taught while in a working environment. 

Only programs such as history where the outcome is limited to academia should be limited to the classroom.

The reason trade schools are looked down on is that from a young age, children are told that the smart kids go to university and the less intelligent ones go to college and the really stupid ones go to trade school. The outcome is similar to what was discussed in the white vs. blue collar thread a while back. The stigma is attached to blue collar jobs because from a young age children learn that white collar workers go to university because they are smarter than the rest.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Dmoney said:


> The stigma is attached to blue collar jobs because from a young age children learn that white collar workers go to university because they are smarter than the rest.


Which is ironic, because I find that kids that go to University can't even keep a conversation flowing since they don't know fawk-all about the world.

I have this article from the Business section of the Toronto Star posted on my wall in my room. It's an article about this dumb chick who went to school for Commerce at Ryerson, then winds up almost bankrupt because she spent all her money and racked up a bunch of student and consumer debt. What a moron.

You can read the article here:

*What happens if you declare bankruptcy?*

Michael Lewis | January 10, 2011 

_"When Valerie Freeman entered the commerce degree program at Ryerson University, she couldn't help but notice the credit card come-ons that seemed to be everywhere — in the student halls, pubs, even residences.

An optimistic 19-year-old, she took up the offers and was approved on the strength of her future income. Freeman, freshly armed with plastic, indulged in outings at the nearby Eaton Centre for stress-relief shopping. 


It turned into more and more; she bought clothing, shoes, gifts, a laptop, “You name it, I charged it,” Freeman told the Star.

She rang up $12,000 in consumer debt before she'd completed her second year of studies. “The stores were just so close by and it was so convenient. It didn't feel like I was spending real money,” Freeman says.

She managed to arrange a debt consolidation line of credit at a bank — and ran that to its limit with a few more shopping trips. More than $42,000 in the red, she was in full-blown panic mode.

“I couldn't go to my parents. I spent the money and I needed to be an adult and get myself out by myself.”

Freeman contacted debt counseling agency Credit Canada, which negotiated a payment scheme with the credit card vendors. She pays $955 a month toward her debt and plans to increase the amount, thanks to a new job and a raise.

She managed to avoid bankruptcy and the black mark she think a “consumer proposal” (see below) would have left on her credit rating. She graduated in 2002 and says she will be debt-free by March 2012.

But for many others the tough choices may be just around the corner."_


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

She pays $955 in debt every month.

I invest $961.96 into BMO every month.

Yet, she graduated from Ryerson University with a Commerce degree and all I have is a Highschool Diploma with some unfinished College. 

Shootme. 

No wonder our world is in a Financial Crisis. LOL!!


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## hystat (Jun 18, 2010)

KaeJS said:


> _credit card come-ons that seemed to be everywhere — in the student halls, pubs, even residences._


nothing (and no one) ever came-on to me in college...


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Ive got grade 10 english and grade 10 math,was the last yr the canadian government accepted it for a diplioma,its one of my greatest regrets,i have add and didnt fit the system.

Today all be it small,i own a construction company that does 500k in sales a yr,employ 4 full time employees,and i am building my financial house.

Life is the ultimate teacher.Any obstacle can be overcome,im 32 and feel like ive just began.

I wish i would of been able to get a mba or something looking back,i got dealt a hand of cards(slight learning disability)but you make the best of it!

Nothing beats desire,this is just imo,not everyone fits the system,you make your own if you have too.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

donald,

why?

You've done something great that most people will not do. You own your own company, but more importantly, you bring food, shelter, and well-being to four human beings.

Good on you. And double good on you for doing this at 32!


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Kaejs:Hangover from feeling shame when i was young and in the school system,It started when i got into junior high,i was one of "those"you know who gets the tap on the shoulder to go to a seperate room with a "different teacher".

"they" the teacher,government or school system,who ever they are decide i guess i didnt match a certian learning level,My teacher requested i go on ritalin when i was about 14,i told him to go fawk himself(i remember this)i got expelled a few times too for various things,but that started my downhill decline.

Good news was thou,i had a lot of friends,well balanced life,into sports and working with my hands ect.,upper middle class family.

Last yr i sold a house i built,paid 30k for the lot in 2008,spent 198k building it and sold for 330k,no agent,minus the lot i recieved a 130k cheque...i felt like going into my old high school a throwing it down and looking @ the prick of a perticular teacher and saying:you remember when you told me i wont amount to anything,how do you like them apples.

Not everybody "fits" the way the government set-up the school system,we all have different learning styles and how to process information ect.The school system wants everybody to fit there mold.Not everyone is made that way.Its a personal subject for me because i hated the school system.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't know exactly how you feel, but I think I can partially relate.

You shouldn't feel a hangover at all. The past doesn't even matter anymore.

And yes - some teachers are just pricks.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I hear ya,i dont live in the past,but just remembring the school system brings me back,im more worried about my holdings in apple right now lol.(didnt see that one coming a la Mr jobs calling it a day)when i read it today i actually had to take a double take!i thought the breaking news on jobs would of been him passing away unexpectly like layton this week,didnt even factor he would step down,makes you wonder if jobs knows something we the "public'' dont know.I dont want to turn this thread into twitter thou.a.d.d lol


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I think what he is trying to do is show, by stepping down, that even when he dies the company will be run fine by Tim Cook.

I think if Jobs just died without stepping down previously, the stock would be hit even harder.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I agree,some are saying this will lift the cloud of uncertianty around jobs and apple,because his health is the one big thing hanging down on the stock,just think what the shares would be if jobs was healthy?Im just pissed because most all of my holdings are trending bullish this week,and i have a sizeable stake in apple,as ya know it hasnt been a pretty summer(80% of my portfolio is in us listed companies)im still bullish on america,against popular opinion.Next:friday jackson time.Mr market is a beauty.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

Yes. $10k definitely a lot to place into AAPL.

At least, for me it is.

I only have 10 shares lol. I may increase to 20 when I think I see a low point.


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