# Til Debt Do Us Part



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Do we have any fans of this TV show here in CMF? I was watching an episode yesterday. I gotta think those people are actors as the examples seem a bit too extreme and the participants seem almost TOO willing to take the advice given. It's still interesting and I'll continue to watch it but assuming everything is true, why aren't people lobbying for better financial education? Kids need to be taught this in school to a much greater degree than we are doing now. Knowing how to manage your personal finances AND to say NO to "stuff" is a critical life skill. Even with shows like this, the message doesn't seem to be getting across.

So how do we do it? Is it up to CMF posters to educate the entire country??
</jest>


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't doubt they are real people. Some of them are motivated just by the carrot of $5k for compliance. 

As far as why nobody is lobbying for improvements in financial literacy, there was enough pressure applied to get Flaherty to set up a task force for financial literacy in Canada:
http://www.financialliteracyincanada.com/


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I have been watching re-runs of this show on Global. It isn't the most interesting show in the world and the host is annoying.

But I like to bask in other people's idiocy I guess LOL.

Watched one last night, combined income of $160k, $50k in debt spending $8000 a month MORE than they make! WTF?


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

It's funny you bring the "actor" thing up. Of all the "reality" shows I watch (Canada's worst Driver, Handyman) it seems the most genuine. 

At the same time, I'm not a big fan of it. Every episode is: Spend less, make more. Rarely is it actually a tough issue like a disability, death of a spouse or child or long term job loss.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

Yeah it's pretty formula driven which makes it boring after a few episodes.

You have to laugh when she says make $3000 a month more and they just do it. Like, WTF were you doing before? Sitting on your a$$?

But sometimes the budgets are cut pretty extreme. $100 a week for groceries, although the episodes I'm watching are from 2008. Two people in my home and $100 a week would be VERY tight, like starving tight! But in 2008 I think we spent half that.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

As terrible as it sounds, her speech impediment drives me crazy. That isn't to say I'm biased against people with a speech impediment, I just believe there are occasions when a physical trait should exclude you from a line of work. I'm overweight. There is no way I should host a fitness show, for example.

Her cackle of a laugh that always seems to slip past the guy doing post production audio work too.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

jamesbe said:


> $100 a week for groceries, although the episodes I'm watching are from 2008. Two people in my home and $100 a week would be VERY tight, like starving tight! But in 2008 I think we spent half that.


Huh. 4 people in my household and we spend $100 a week; sometimes a bit more - our grocery bill was $117 on Saturday, but we bought a lot of meat. How much are people spending on groceries?


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

jamesbe said:


> Yeah it's pretty formula driven which makes it boring after a few episodes.
> 
> You have to laugh when she says make $3000 a month more and they just do it. Like, WTF were you doing before? Sitting on your a$$?


True that, and that's the part I find hardest to swallow. At one point I worked a side job as well as my full-time gig. Most part time gigs are minimum wage. I did it for two years, at best I was able to bring home an extra $500-600 a month. After additional expenses, it was probably closer to 400-500 a month.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Yeah I agree. I did a part time gig one time and it did nothing but empty my bank account in related expenses and cause me to have to work at ridiculous hours. Plus these jobs all have a boss like a proper career job and you have to take it seriously, be on time etc. Glad I got an education to be able to make good money for that effort.

As for the show, I gotta think they fabricate extreme examples and stick some actors in there to play the part of dumb money manager. 

That said, I heard a stat last week that said CDN personal debt was 150% of income. Of course, that could be that they are counting those ridiculous city mortgages in there.

What a messed up financial world we live in.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> Huh. 4 people in my household and we spend $100 a week; sometimes a bit more - our grocery bill was $117 on Saturday, but we bought a lot of meat. How much are people spending on groceries?


I always thought we spent on average $100 a week. But since I started using Mint to track it it is more .

Some weeks we spend like $50 then other weeks a lot more. We very rarely eat out at restaurants, maybe once every 2 months.

August $493
September $538
October $456

This is just groceries and averages out to $125 a month. Looks like in those 3 months we have $60 in restaurants so that is reasonable (once a month I go for lunch with colleagues at work typically $15-$20). I don't do the shopping but I see what the wife brings home and it isn't extravagant. Heck for lunch the last two days I only had an apple and a yogurt...


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Do you shop at whole foods? Where do you live? That level of expense seems very high. I could eat very well with that budget.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I live in Ottawa we shop mostly at Loblaws or the superstore. It seems high to me too. We also buy meat at costco which is usually a good bargain.


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## yupislyr (Nov 16, 2009)

crazyjackcsa said:


> As terrible as it sounds, her speech impediment drives me crazy. That isn't to say I'm biased against people with a speech impediment, I just believe there are occasions when a physical trait should exclude you from a line of work. I'm overweight. There is no way I should host a fitness show, for example.
> 
> Her cackle of a laugh that always seems to slip past the guy doing post production audio work too.


It's an accent. She a Jamaican immigrant.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

We rarely go to loblaws as it seems we pay 60 more for the same stuff as other stores.We are family of 4 and 2 pets and we spend about $140.00 a week at grocery store.My pets are spoiled they are costing us about $70 a month for sure....


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## daddybigbucks (Jan 30, 2011)

marina628 said:


> We rarely go to loblaws as it seems we pay 60 more for the same stuff as other stores.We are family of 4 and 2 pets and we spend about $140.00 a week at grocery store.My pets are spoiled they are costing us about $70 a month for sure....


we are the same, $140 at superstore a week for family of 4, no pets.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

I really enjoy show, it exemplifies what NOT to do using examples of real people and simplistic solutions. It shows that you do not need to be a financial whiz to be on a good financial path. 

That being said I don't watch it anymore as they are repetitive. The earlier suggestion of throwing in some more difficult situations would be interesting.

And groceries, $200-300/mo for two+guests. We eat well as we do a lot of homecooking. Lately I've been clearing out the cupboards and freezer/fridge which has further reduced my monthly expenditures.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

^ That seems very reasonable to me.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

She started bringing me the receipts when I said $120 a week was too much. So i went over them. Nothing stood out unfortunately.

We do not buy junk food, we don't buy bread very often either. Mostly eat chicken and beef and pasta which is cheap as well. No we do not buy $1 pasta sauce, we buy the ready made $4 one, but I make enough that the $3 a week isn't going to kill me.

Veggies and fruits are expensive .... I'll take note again this week and report back (maybe we need a new thread, can someone split this?)


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

You can make your own spaghetti sauce for less than that. I made a batch on the weekend using about $8.50 worth of incredients. I'll get about 10 meals out of that and it's better and healthier than the jarred sauce. try it. At 85 cents a meal (plus pasta) you can't go wrong.

P.S. No need to start new thread.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes! I calculate my per-meal costs every meal. 

It's almost a game with me now - I started when I was in university, living with my sister and verrrrrry broke. We alternated meal planning and prep each week and we competed with each other to produce low-cost meals we actually liked (providing low-cost meals no one liked was not a way to win).


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## daddybigbucks (Jan 30, 2011)

jamesbe said:


> Veggies and fruits are expensive ....


they are not expensive. 
I know that is the general rational but i have found it to be not true.

I always hit the fruit and veggie aisle first, and just load up my shopping cart. Bread is next. then meat, then soup, then prepackaged goods.

try that and then try it in the reverse order next week and you will be suprised how different your results are. ( i was anyways)

I hope to get a couple deer in the freezer in the next couple weeks to cut my meat budget 90%.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

When I do calculate it, it's something like $5 for two people. So you would think that groceries would be closer to $50 a week  .. odd


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

daddybigbucks said:


> they are not expensive.
> I know that is the general rational but i have found it to be not true.
> 
> I always hit the fruit and veggie aisle first, and just load up my shopping cart. Bread is next. then meat, then soup, then prepackaged goods.
> ...


That's the order of the store and that is the order of which we shop. But veggies are expensive for sure. I find especially so for only 2 people. Why? Because I can't eat a bunch of carrots or a full head of lettuce in a week. So a lot of times half goes into the compost unfortunately. We can only eat so much...


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

The show i remember was the school teacher young blond who said stupid things like 'my brother is rich he said he will buy me a house' when gail told her she had to get off her duff and work more.She being a teacher scared the hell out of me .Another goody was the doctor who spent $18,000 more a month than they made.
As for meal costs and making things from scratch ,we work from home and cook most of our meals .


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't know how you go about spending $30k a month. Sounds like a lot of work.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

If i remove my mortgage and investments ,we spend $1000 a week which is for food , gas, gifts ,travel budget and my poker /casino habit.I think I spend lots compared to most ,think even me would have a problem spending $360,000 in a year.
The thing about these people is most times they have little to show for the amount they spend ,that is definitely not my case .


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## Mockingbird (Apr 29, 2009)

30K? It doesn't take much.

Just buy two of these and have a gay old time. 
50yr old Highland Park ($17,500)
50yr old Dalmore Candela ($14,000)

BC Liquor Store

MB


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

There is a difference in spending $30,000 every month and wasting it I do nto drink Alcohol , if i had to spend that much just point me to Tiffany's lol.


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## Mockingbird (Apr 29, 2009)

Did you just put Scotch and wasting on a same sentence?

MB


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

What do I think about the show?

_"Everybody knows that the world is full of stupid people."_

The Refreshments - Banditos

This half belongs here, and half belongs in the music thread.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

For me any alcohol is waste of money .Yeah I am surprised how many couples earning over $100,000 a year are so far in debt.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I bet a lot of us CMFers do the 'cost/meal' calculation.

The funnest calculation is steak. Grill yourself a nice T-bone $5/person. Go to a restaurant, and that's $35-$50/person.


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## Oilers82 (Jan 17, 2011)

Steak and pasta seem to be the highest mark-ups in terms of % when comparing restaurant to home cooking.

Sometimes, Chinese food (like, chinese fast food) is almost on par with home cooking and the convenience of it puts eating out as the clear winner. I find that eating with just 2 of us (or often just 1), my wife and I would almost rather just have some cheap ethnic food and save the time of buying groceries. Its a struggle to motivate ourselves to cook, even though we know its the right thing financially and health-wise.


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## daddybigbucks (Jan 30, 2011)

Oilers82 said:


> Steak and pasta seem to be the highest mark-ups in terms of % when comparing restaurant to home cooking.
> 
> Sometimes, Chinese food (like, chinese fast food) is almost on par with home cooking and the convenience of it puts eating out as the clear winner. .


I probably shouldn't say this but sure most people know anyways.

When i was younger, i worked in a warehouse for fruits and vegatable that supplied restaurants, bulk food places, etc.

The chinese restaurants would only buy the vegetables that were marked 50-80% off because half of it was rotted.
The vegatables only had a day worth of life left in them and they would buy bags and bags of the stuff.
It was pretty disgusting.

Working there turned me off chinese food for life.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

I have no problem understanding why folks get in the position they are on that show, I lived the same way for years.
Grocery shopping cost two of us on average 600.00 per month.

I write down every dollar spent and have been doing this for several years now.
The only right thing I did was plan for an early retirement.

My wife and I spent 6 to 8 K a month for many many years.
Kid wants kid gets, no planning just spending, now that the kids have grown the hard part is saying NO MORE.

When my kids come to me for money now I want to know where there money went, it goes something like this:
Well dad we have a social life and go out with friends not like you and mom.
We went away for the weekend it was only 200.00 dollars.
The sweater only cost 140.00 dollars or the shoes were only 120.00 

And the best one its our money and not your business.

We did not teach them what we should have, but its not to late and we spend a great deal of time saying NO and make it clear that we will sit down any time with either of them and help them understand how money works.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

jamesbe said:


> Because I can't eat a bunch of carrots or a full head of lettuce in a week. So a lot of times half goes into the compost unfortunately. We can only eat so much...


Those orange pointy things you buy in a store aren't carrots! Carrots are second on my list of vastly better tasting foods to grow yourself after tomatoes.

Until you grow some of your own food, or perhaps develop a close relationship to a local small farmer, you just have no idea the grocery store crap you are sticking in your mouth.

The other advantage I get is I'll have carrots until March or April, either by leaving them in the ground and covering with straw, or packing them in sand in a rubbermaid and putting into the cold storage.

hboy43


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

I have absolutely no interest in growing my own carrots thanks. I have no time for a garden and no desire what-so-ever to make one. I'll spend $3 on a bunch of carrots and sit down and watch TV with them before I'll spend hours tilling dirt watering and planting seeds worst nightmare ever for me is gardens.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Sampson said:


> I bet a lot of us CMFers do the 'cost/meal' calculation.
> 
> The funnest calculation is steak. Grill yourself a nice T-bone $5/person. Go to a restaurant, and that's $35-$50/person.


Well, a nice steak is usually more than $5.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

When I have a bunch of vegetables starting to go bad I have several standby options: the juicer, a everything-in-the-fridge stirfry, or a vegetable soup  

I hate throwing things out because I didn't use it in time.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Well, a nice steak is usually more than $5.


I guess it depends on how much you eat, but on sale, there is good quality AA and sometimes even AAA beef (from around here of course ) on sale for under $5/lb.

So fair enough, $10 will buy you an excellent T-bone, but even at a craphouse like the Keg that'll run you $50 at least. At an upscale restaurant.... well I've never been to one of those.


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## cannon_fodder (Apr 3, 2009)

if you have a Metro near you, shop for meat on a Sunday night. I often find all types of higher quality meat and chicken reduced because of the sell before date one day away.

I have not found the same variety and discounting at our loblaw supercentre.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

The trouble with that is that by Sunday night the selection of the most popular types (ground beef, cross rib roast, sirloin etc) are long since sold and you are left with whatever they have left.


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## jamesbe (May 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> The show i remember was the school teacher young blond who said stupid things like 'my brother is rich he said he will buy me a house' when gail told her she had to get off her duff and work more.She being a teacher scared the hell out of me .Another goody was the doctor who spent $18,000 more a month than they made.
> As for meal costs and making things from scratch ,we work from home and cook most of our meals .


Whatching the doctor one right now, 18k a month? Lol


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

he was overspending 18k a month , his wife had a scrap booking shop.I watched princess 1 time only , I couldn't suffer through it ,totally hate dumb f*ck$ on that show.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I dont know how people can live like that and not worry.....nevermind debt,me personally i start sweating when i dont feel like im making progress of some sort each month.

216k a yr on a debt pile....that **** blows my mind,how can a highly educated doctor have such a low financial iq and blueprint?goes to show you,there is 2 kinds of intelligence.


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## jcgd (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't know if you can even attribute that to intelligence. I think that has to be more of a mental issue or addiction.

It's insulting to dumb people.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Maybe intellectually lazy... many people fall into the trap of 'the bank thinks I can afford it, so I must be able to'. It is easy. Thinking about budgets and repayments and five year plans is hard. Intelligent people are just a susceptible to taking these kinds of intellectual shortcuts, especially outside their area of expertise.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

donald said:


> 216k a yr on a debt pile....that **** blows my mind,how can a highly educated doctor have such a low financial iq and blueprint?goes to show you,there is 2 kinds of intelligence.


How intelligent are doctors anyhow? That CBC IQ test show that ran a few years back said surgeons had an average IQ of 118 IIRC. Hardly a rocket scientist ...

hboy43


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

118 is quite a bit above average. Of course, since surgeons would be distributed around that average, that means some surgeons might have IQs as low as 100. 

That said, I'm not sure medicine requires a lot of intelligence (compared to, say, theoretical physics). From what I've seen, medical school tests for recall and endurance.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

My friend is a Plastic Surgeon he is earning after taxes between $25,000 and $30,000 a month and he is the most disorganized person i ever met.His credit is horrible because half times he never opens any mail ,he had his membership to college of physicians and surgeon lapse more than once and a couple times Telus cut off his pager service for non payment.I had lots of respect for doctors just because they were Doctors until I seen the other side through the friendships I made via my friend .


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Doctors (and dentists) were a big focus of the book _The Millionaire Next Door_.
I believe one entire chapter was devoted to them.
Doctors had one of the lowest net worth relative to annual income among all the major high grossing professions.
Apparently they are not quite as surgical with their financial management.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

marina628 said:


> My friend is a Plastic Surgeon he is earning after taxes between $25,000 and $30,000 a month and he is the most disorganized person i ever met.His credit is horrible because half times he never opens any mail ,he had his membership to college of physicians and surgeon lapse more than once and a couple times Telus cut off his pager service for non payment.I had lots of respect for doctors just because they were Doctors until I seen the other side through the friendships I made via my friend .


I didn't really mean to slam surgeons in case there is one lurking here. My point was that they aren't Gods either.

Could be that they have the weight of the world on their shoulders, with patients threatening to die on them on a daily basis. My surgeon has gotten me in and out twice this year, so I will certainly spot him a bit of sloppyness in his personal affairs.

hboy43


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## Dmoney (Apr 28, 2011)

HaroldCrump said:


> Doctors (and dentists) were a big focus of the book _The Millionaire Next Door_.
> I believe one entire chapter was devoted to them.
> Doctors had one of the lowest net worth relative to annual income among all the major high grossing professions.
> Apparently they are not quite as surgical with their financial management.


Did the formula in the book account for years of education? If I recall the inputs were age and salary right? If a doctor starts earning 300K/year at 29, at 31 you can't expect a high net worth, while at 45 things might look different.

A big part is also likely that once you've gone through Xyears of schooling and you're finally making money, it's gotta feel good to start spending it. That and the mentality that they can just work an extra couple of months and make a quick $100K


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Dmoney said:


> Did the formula in the book account for years of education? If I recall the inputs were age and salary right?


Correct (as far as I recall).
To account for years or study would imply that higher education necessarily means higher income.
Not the case.
You could get double PhD.s in medieval art, but that doesn't mean you can earn more than someone with an MBA.
Sure, higher education is selective areas often leads to higher income potential but I think they were right in not using that as a factor in the formula.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I think it's a fair point. Doctors usually also start with very large debts, which would be a drag on net worth.

I suppose that since it includes all doctors, it should be based on their career average net worth, so perhaps that effect would be nullified.


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## Sherlock (Apr 18, 2010)

On a related note, there's a documentary on CBC tonight on Doczone about adult kids who still live with their parents. Should be interesting.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Ah cripes, I missed that. Fell asleep early last night, timeshift still has me messed up. How was the documentary?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Doesn't cbc stream? Check out their site. I watch L&O'L that way. It's like the best PVR ever (records every show without needing your direction)--and it's free.


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## behappytoday (Sep 16, 2011)

It looks like it is going to be repeated

Generation Boomerang
Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:00 PM on CBC-TV 
Friday November 11 at 10 pm ET/PT on CBC News Network


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

Back on the doc piece, I am surprised at the number of physicians that are not incorporated. There are specialties that bring in seven figures a year that are not incorporated and having that all as personal income as opposed to through a PC is outrageous to us.

DW incorporated two weeks after fellowship and she hasn't taken out a dime (save for corporate taxes). At this time, we're trying to model the optimum annual salary to minimize taxes in the long haul.


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