# Savings interest delivered as cap gains



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A recent question on PSA (the Purpose ISA) got me thinking. This is not PSA-specific, for example it could also apply to MINT which I use for USD storage.

Do these ETFs create the opportunity to convert interest income purely into capital gains, therefore reducing taxes?

Imagine that someone routinely buys on the ex dividend date. With PSA that's around the 27th of the month after the distribution has been paid out (ex- means that the stock comes to you ex- dividend). Then, sell each month immediately before the next ex date. Because you never hold it when the ex dividend date hits, you never receive a taxable interest payout.

Chart to illustrate: http://schrts.co/zWTwbSPT

Total return would be preserved, because you are getting it at the low part of each cycle and selling at the highest point. I believe the entire total return comes to you as capital gains. Share prices creep upwards (with all fixed income ETFs) reflecting the interest accrual, before it's paid out in one shot.

There will be some efficiency loss obviously, on the bid/ask spread each time you do this. This can actually add up, even if it's just 1 penny spread, per month. Maybe that's the big wrinkle.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Is that chart showing an uptick of about 4 cents per month on a $50 unit, IOW a capital growth of about 0.48% per year (or as much as 1%)?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Well I'm seeing (50.08 / 50.00) or about 0.16% gain per month which = 1.9% per year, and that is approx the yield of the fund.

Each month: buy at around 50.00, sell at around 50.08 assuming today's interest rates. That's 8 cents CG per month = 0.96 CG per year = 1.9%


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

By the way, checked with a Bay Street contact, who told me that institutions were doing this, but were told by CRA to stop based on General Anti Avoidance Rule.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Right, that looks close (opened window to 11mos).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The bid/ask spread causes a hit. Let's say realistically it's an average 1.5 cents bid/ask spread per monthly trade. For PSA that wipes out nearly 0.4% for the year.

Meaning the ideal 2.0% declines to 1.6% yield after friction, assuming zero trade fees.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> The bid/ask spread causes a hit. Let's say realistically it's an average 1.5 cents bid/ask spread per monthly trade. For PSA that wipes out nearly 0.4% for the year.
> 
> Meaning the ideal 2.0% declines to 1.6% yield after friction, assuming zero trade fees.


Yeah, bid/ask spread + assuming zero trade fees, plus you would have to make your trade on the date to ensure you weren't on record, so there's a couple days loss each month also. And you would have to do this 12 times a year.

There are better ways to make money.

ltr


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

And at that, all you are doing is playing the difference in cap gains tax vs tax on interest. Net benefit is about zero or perhaps a loss.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yeah. I think the method works (the mechanical pieces are there) but after the efficiency loss, it just doesn't seem to be worth it. There's no way you'd want to throw away 0.4% of the PSA yield just to convert interest to capital gains -- not worth it.

I can think of one scenario where this might be worth it, though. If someone had a _massive USD_ holding they could use American ETFs with higher share prices, either SHV or MINT. With the higher share price, the bid/ask spread becomes smaller and the loss from trading shrinks considerably. I'll bet you could keep nearly the full yield and convert it fully to capital gains.

There's an additional benefit of the USD case. By doing this, you also avoid the US withholding on distributions. Though they are recoverable later, it would be nice to keep all the $ in capital gains forms. That's 15% more cash up front. Lower net taxes and more cash in your pocket immediately.

But I don't have a large enough USD holding to make that worthwhile.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> A recent question on PSA (the Purpose ISA) got me thinking. This is not PSA-specific, for example it could also apply to MINT which I use for USD storage.
> 
> Do these ETFs create the opportunity to convert interest income purely into capital gains, therefore reducing taxes?
> 
> ...



before i posted on the PSA thread the other day, i asked myself if some really bright bulb in the forum would be able to catch on to the theoretical capital gain advantage potential which is inherent in PSA's regular monthly up-down-up-down-up-down seesaw price pattern.

so i left out that part of the answer. Just describing the seesaw would be clue enough, i thought.

i wasn't thinking of jas4 although he'd certainly be one of the bright bulbs. But sure enough, it was jas4 who found the clue.

on to the next level: the CRA has been through these schemes many times before. Long time ago it was canadian 3-month T-bills. Some canadian financial institution had this offshore MF in the bahamas whose mandate was to buy T-bills cheap when issued, then sell them just prior to maturity 89 days later in order to collect the accrued interest. It would then convert the interest to capital gains inside the MF before distributing the booty back to canadian investors.

well the CRA took a dim view of those shenanigans & shut the operation down. The same CRA which is trying to end Horizon's campaign to do the same thing with HXT.

jas4 i believe MINT has a monthly distriburtion? the chart probably shows a monthly seesaw similar to PSA? 

to play the shenanigans properly you'd need an amount of at least USD $300k, to cover the accounting & in/out commish costs. After that there's the looming risk that, if audited, the CRA will see through the scheme & they'll disallow it. They'll call MINT's distributions fully taxable "other income" or "foreign non-business income," ie 100% taxable just like interest.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

I believe you could do this with discount bonds, relatively efficiently. Let's say you buy a 5 year Canada or corp. bond with a low coupon at a good discount. You have to pay income tax on the coupon payments (which are low). The capital gain would be deferred and taxed at the lower rate.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That's what I do in my non-reg bond portfolio, Topo. I exclusively buy discount bonds, or whatever has the smallest coupons.

The ZDB fund does a good job of this, quite tax efficient. It doesn't use swaps or any derivative tricks.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

humble_pie, that's interesting that an institution tried this with t-bills in the past.

One of my Bay Street contacts says it has been tried more recently by an institution he knows and the CRA came down on them with GAAR.

This seems like good news overall, regarding taxation fairness. A small investor cannot realistically do this because you need huge amounts before it's worthwhile. A large, institutional investor can do it, but this is on the CRA's radar. Nice.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> I believe you could do this with discount bonds, relatively efficiently. Let's say you buy a 5 year Canada or corp. bond with a low coupon at a good discount. You have to pay income tax on the coupon payments (which are low). The capital gain would be deferred and taxed at the lower rate.




believe this could work although investor should probably avoid long-term deep discount corporate bonds, those are lowest grade or else have no grade at all, ie they are junk bonds. The riskiest.

there has to be a fine demarcation point between taxation of low coupon deep discount gummint bonds & their most extreme cousins, strip bonds. Strips, which are sold at deep discounts & pay no interest, are nevertheless taxed as they go along. An investor holding strips in non-reg'd must calculate deemed interest payable every 3 years & report this as taxable interest income & pay taxes upon the notional amount, even though he hasn't received a penny in real life. Ouch.

on the other hand topo & jas4 are saying that low coupon deep discount bondholders are allowed to report smallish interest payments as taxable interest but the larger gains from discount price to maturity face value will be reported as capital gains. This sounds better than the strip situation.

i haven't looked at any bond tables yet but i'm expecting to see a snafu. I'm expecting to see that gummint bonds w ultra low coupons are not trading at prices far enough below par to make their purchase worth while.

_drat no free lunch here_


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Another choice would be to sell puts on ETFs. Say for example one wants long exposure to TLT. The Jan2020 140.00 puts currently bids for 3.50, which is about 10% annualized in premiums. The dividend for a quarter is only about $ 0.78. If this is a cash secured put, your cash should generate a bit of interest. Your taxes will be higher, but offset by the increased income.

Of course, gains are limited, so opportunities for rebalancing are less.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Good discussion. 

Just to clarify re/ strip bonds in an unregistered account. Tax is payable on the accrued interest annually, and since 2015 TD (as TDAM) has been reporting the account interest annually on the T5 slip (box 13).

Like James, l'm encouraged to hear that the CRA is proactive in disallowing schemes that attempt to misappropriate interest income. The amount of tax payable on strip bond interest chokes me each year at tax time (our registered accs are already heavily used for interest products as well), but l've never considered trying to evade it.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

humble_pie said:


> I'm expecting to see that gummint bonds w ultra low coupons are not trading at prices far enough below par to make their purchase worth while.


Yeah, agreed. With high grade corporates or government bonds, the only time discount bonds become plentiful and worthwhile is when interest rates are rising over a long period. The older low coupon bonds then offer a greater and greater discount as rates rise. Once rates stabilize or stay relatively constant, the discounts dry up or aren't really worth pursuing for the capital gain.

It's exactly the opposite of course as rates drop. The last decade has seen lots of premium bonds as a result. Some retirees like premium bonds for their high coupons and are willing to accept the eating away of their principal in each coupon to satisfy their income needs. It makes the principal available as income over the life of the bond. Not a good idea in a taxable account though.

I've read that in the USA they're able to amortize the premium paid on a bond over its life, to offset the interest income each year. Although a little complex in record keeping I suspect, it seems like a reasonable idea to give an interest deduction when you're required to pay an interest tax, rather than a capital deduction when you're required to pay an interest tax as it is in Canada. 

ltr


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> I'm expecting to see that gummint bonds w ultra low coupons are not trading at prices far enough below par to make their purchase worth while.
> 
> _drat no free lunch here_


Looking at iTrade bond inventory, there is a Canada with a 0.5% coupon maturing in 2022/03, YTM=1.63, and ask price of 97.42. Another Canada, maturing in 2022/06 has a 9% coupon, YTM=1.58, and ask price of 119.64. 

I see plenty of free lunches here, in a non-reg account.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

That last one is a terrible choice in a non-reg account. Paying high taxes on a high coupon and then taking a capital loss at maturity at a 50% inclusion rate.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

AltaRed said:


> That last one is a terrible choice in a non-reg account. Paying high taxes on a high coupon and then taking a capital loss at maturity at a 50% inclusion rate.


Exactly. A rough estimate would be $2000 taxes per year for a 100k position. With a YTM of 1.6 percent, one would be better off paying $200.00 per year for a safe deposit box and stuffing the cash there than buying that bond!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's my understanding of the tax situation of these various fixed income alternatives

- GICs are taxed on the accrued interest, even if it's compounded internally
- zero coupon (strip) bonds are taxed on the "virtual" accrued interest implied by the yield
- positive coupon bonds are taxed on the coupon payment, *not* the yield

So yeah, that 9% coupon bond would be a terrible non registered choice. The 0.5% coupon bond would be very sweet; it's paying nearly its entire yield as capital gains. I think it's also noteworthy that the 0.5% coupon bond would be more tax efficient than a strip bond if both have the same yield to maturity.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Here's my understanding of the tax situation of these various fixed income alternatives
> 
> - GICs are taxed on the accrued interest, even if it's compounded internally
> - zero coupon (strip) bonds are taxed on the "virtual" accrued interest implied by the yield
> ...


I believe you are accurate. 

I would add that T-bills held to maturity would be considered income. If sold before maturity, there could be capital gains or losses (similar to strip bonds).


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> Exactly. A rough estimate would be $2000 taxes per year for a 100k position. With a YTM of 1.6 percent, one would be better off paying $200.00 per year for a safe deposit box and stuffing the cash there than buying that bond!


but when you posted the info about the supersized bond w high taxable interest followed by gigantic capital loss, you called it a "free lunch"

actually it's a trap. OK for non-taxable funds such as pension & charitable but lucifer for ordinary retail investors.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> Just to clarify re/ strip bonds in an unregistered account. Tax is payable on the accrued interest annually, and since 2015 TD (as TDAM) has been reporting the account interest annually on the T5 slip (box 13)



tax on deemed interest on strips is to be paid annually now? thankx for pointing this out, i've never held a strip so didn't know exactly. Was there not a period when estimated tax was only to be done every 3 years though?

when i lived in europe canadian underwriters - from the big bank brokers - did a fairly brisk business selling CAD gummint strips to foreign institutional investors. Looking back & thinking about now, it might have been a currency play for them furrinners. They might have seen CAD as a sort of proxy for USD while the discounts for canadian strips might have been better than for similar USD vehicles.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

If strip bonds need to be taxed as interest instead of cg, then I don't see why any income from fixed income should be treated as cg.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> but when you posted the info about the supersized bond w high taxable interest followed by gigantic capital loss, you called it a "free lunch"
> 
> actually it's a trap. OK for non-taxable funds such as pension & charitable but lucifer for ordinary retail investors.


The free lunch is in picking the discount bond instead of the premium bond.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> The free lunch is in picking the discount bond instead of the premium bond.



i ran a few figs for after-tax yield on that discount bond you mentioned upthread vs holding the capital in a HISA same period of time. For a 100k block there was hardly any difference. Not worth the effort.

the problem as i mentioned above is that the discount is not deep enough. The "capital gain" is too piddling to bother with.

another handicap with the discount bond is its lack of liquidity. This affects myself & could affect certain others looking for yield in today's unforgiving environment; although of course there are other investors who will be happy to hold to maturity of the bond.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

andrewf said:


> If strip bonds need to be taxed as interest instead of cg, then I don't see why any income from fixed income should be treated as cg.


You could have a capital gains (or loss) with a strip bond too. It is calculated after the accrued interest. For example if you buy a strip for $70.00 and sell it one year later for $75.00, there may be 2.00 accrued interest and 3.00 capital gains to pay tax on. If kept to maturity, however, you would have paid tax on 30.00 of interest along the way.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> i ran a few figs for after-tax yield on that discount bond you mentioned upthread vs holding the capital in a HISA same period of time. For a 100k block there was hardly any difference. Not worth the effort.


It depends on your tax bracket. 

If one is say 5 years from retirement, there is another bonus in delaying the CG tax, in that the bond holder would be in a lower tax bracket when the bond matures. 



> another handicap with the discount bond is its lack of liquidity.


Liquidity is not much different between discount and premium bonds for the retail investor. 

One could also look to see if there are any ETFs that are holding more discount bonds and buy them. They would be more tax efficient.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> If one is say 5 years from retirement, there is another bonus in delaying the CG tax, in that the bond holder would be in a lower tax bracket when the bond matures.




an investor/bond holder who would be in a significantly lower tax bracket after he retires is not going to be an investor/bond holder with a large investment portfolio though.

even w a starting block of 100k the capital gain on that small-discount bond is meh. Not worth doing for retail investors who may hold even less in the way of a single bond.

as for liquidity, what i was comparing for after-tax yield were the aforementioned discount bond vs ultra-liquid HISA.

as it happens i'm one who requires at least half short-term or cash holdings to be liquid, so when aftertax yield is samesame or meh, i would not bother.

let's be realistic. The truly big writeoff from income tax payable on fully taxable interest income comes from Charitable Donation Tax Credit. Other than that it's pay as you go.

_Drat There's No Free Lunch
_


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo said:


> One could also look to see if there are any ETFs that are holding more discount bonds and buy them. They would be more tax efficient.


This is exactly what ZDB does. It's a neat bond ETF that does something very unique; I recommended it to family members some time ago due to its tax efficiency.

For example a couch potato allocation should use ZDB in non-registered. It's a perfect replacement for XBB. Trailing 1 year returns are XBB 9.30%, ZDB 9.34%


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> an investor/bond holder who would be in a significantly lower tax bracket after he retires is not going to be an investor/bond holder with a large investment portfolio though.


He (or she) could be a humble 64-year-old with a 1m RRSP, 70k in TFSA and 100k in non-reg., plus a 1.5 m house in Vancouver or Toronto. They were in the top tax bracket before retirement. 

1k saved in taxes is 1k saved in taxes.



> as it happens i'm one who requires at least half short-term or cash holdings to be liquid, so when aftertax yield is samesame or meh, i would not bother.


That is very reasonable for your situation. For others, YMMV.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> This is exactly what ZDB does. It's a neat bond ETF that does something very unique; I recommended it to family members some time ago due to its tax efficiency.
> 
> For example a couch potato allocation should use ZDB in non-registered. It's a perfect replacement for XBB. Trailing 1 year returns are XBB 9.30%, ZDB 9.34%


ZDB is a good tax-efficient replacement for XBB. Their YTMs, durations, and MERs are comparable. ZDB shows a weighted YTM of 1.98% with an weighted average coupon of 2.13%. Those numbers of XBB are 2.14% and 3.16%, respectively. Even though, ZDB (at the moment) seems to have a slight preponderance of premium bonds, the percentage of premium bonds is much higher for XBB. So ZDB would be more tax efficient going forward.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> He (or she) could be a humble 64-year-old with a 1m RRSP ...


but how is he going to have such a low retirement income if he has a 1M rrsp though ...

OK u are going to say u are only talking about his years age 64-71 ...

i give up, u win, yr little bond is a sweetie pie each:


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> but how is he going to have such a low retirement income if he has a 1M rrsp though ...
> 
> OK u are going to say u are only talking about his years age 64-71 ...
> 
> i give up, u win, yr little bond is a sweetie pie each:


You are right! That's why I specified 64.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> You are right! That's why I chose 64.



lol but when i get some time it'll be back to the fencing ring with the puts though

my hypothesis will be that you don't quite grasp how margin works _after_ a cash-secured put assignment. That is, after market has crashed. After the 100% margin previously provided to the margin account by the presence of cash suddenly becomes 50% margin or even zero margin after the shares have been assigned by the put contract & it turns out they have questionable value or the broker won't recognize margin value for them. At that moment the entire account becomes vulnerable. 

plus in a collapsing market there will likely be other account havoc. It's likely that our put seller - the trader who was dumb enough to sell an ATM put in the first place - our put seller was dumb all over. There's a good probability his account is suffering multiple other messes.

discount brokers with significant options business see the above all the time. Ask em. Markets fall much faster than they rise, so a happy-cash ATM put position today can turn into an account-wide margin nightmare tomorrow.

there's a reason why onlyMO gritted his teeth & said he pays full income tax fare on his strip bond income every year & he said there are no income tax shortcuts in FI. Because if there were shortcuts, onlyMO would have found em.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> my hypothesis will be that you don't quite grasp how margin works _after_ a cash-secured put assignment. That is, after market has crashed. After the 100% margin previously provided to the margin account by the presence of cash suddenly becomes 50% margin or even zero margin after the shares have been assigned by the put contract & it turns out they have questionable value or the broker won't recognize margin value for them. At that moment the entire account becomes vulnerable.


To reach the point in which a cash-secured account is 50% underwater, the option seller selling out of the money puts would be utterly wiped out if they used portfolio margin. 



> plus in a collapsing market there will likely be other account havoc. It's likely that our put seller - the trader who was dumb enough to sell an ATM put in the first place - our put seller was dumb all over. There's a good probability his account is suffering multiple other messes.


As you know, a cash-covered short put is equivalent to a covered call. There are many investors and portfolio managers who use this premium generating method. It is considered a prudent and conservative strategy for any investor, amateur to pro. You cannot blow your account on this strategy. These investors are unlikely to sell uncovered calls, strangles or straddles in their accounts, so the rest of their account is safe too.



> discount brokers with significant options business see the above all the time. Ask em. Markets fall much faster than they rise, so a happy-cash ATM put position today can turn into an account-wide margin nightmare tomorrow.


It cannot, because the cash is there to take assignment. That is what cash-secured means.



> there's a reason why onlyMO gritted his teeth & said he pays full income tax fare on his strip bond income every year & he said there are no income tax shortcuts in FI. Because if there were shortcuts, onlyMO would have found em.


I'm sure humble_pie would have found them first!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> To reach the point in which a cash-secured account is 50% underwater, the option seller selling out of the money puts would be utterly wiped out if they used portfolio margin.



no what i specified is that the stock put to a put seller who previously had held cash to cover could, following the assigment, only be 50% marginable & in fact could have no margin value whatsoever, depending on the broker.

keep in mind that the security itself is now worth less - sometimes far less - than the put exercise price. Automatically following exercise the put seller suffers a notional loss, even if his broker isn't looking for him to sell the stock. If he has to sell the stock, or if he chooses to sell the stock, he will incur that loss & therefore his capital will have shrunk dramatically.

these various scenarios wlll impact his entire margin account, not to speak of the probability that this one particular mess is not the only one. As i mentioned, ask any seasoned representative in an active options trading house. They've all witnessed the sudden put chaos scenario countless times.

a better & more prudent scenario is selling OTM puts whose underlyings are sufficiently volatile to generate premium. But so far you have named only ATM puts. The TLT 140P is another example.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> no what i specified is that the stock put to a put seller who previously had held cash to cover could, following the assigment, only be 50% marginable & in fact could have no margin value whatsoever, depending on the broker.
> 
> keep in mind that the security itself is now worth less - sometimes far less - than the put exercise price. Automatically following exercise the put seller suffers a notional loss, even if his broker isn't looking for him to sell the stock. If he has to sell the stock, or if he chooses to sell the stock, he will incur that loss & therefore his capital will have shrunk dramatically.
> 
> ...


The same margin problems would be present with OTM puts. Ask those who held short puts during October 2008. It really depends more on the number of options you have sold, not so much the strike price.

This thread was started by james4beach to discuss bond taxation. Let's not hijack the thread. If you would like to discuss this issue further, maybe you could start an "Options Master Thread" or something similar.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> This thread was started by james4beach to discuss bond taxation. Let's not hijack the thread. If you would like to discuss this issue further, maybe you could start an "Options Master Thread" or something similar.




i believe you are gravely mistaken. The OP launched this thread to discuss, not bond taxation, but _how to escape bond taxation as straight interest_.

furthermore, you are the very party who first introduced the notion of selling put options in this thread, as a strategy to escape bond taxation. Post # 15 upthread. Having floated your option proposal, surely it is inappropriate for you to commence scoffing at your own idea.



Topo said:


> Another choice would be to sell puts on ETFs. Say for example one wants long exposure to TLT. The Jan2020 140.00 puts currently bids for 3.50, which is about 10% annualized in premiums. The dividend for a quarter is only about $ 0.78. If this is a cash secured put, your cash should generate a bit of interest. Your taxes will be higher, but offset by the increased income.



may i clarify once again. What i am opposing is your constant advocacy of the sale of at-the-money puts such as the TLT jan 140 of 2020 referenced above. Me i am not interested in whether you do or do not sell ATM puts in your own private life. What i oppose is the foolish touting of a worthless textbook strategy that is based largely on greed, to inexperienced readers in this forum who may be tempted to try it out.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> i believe you are gravely mistaken. The OP launched this thread to discuss, not bond taxation, but _how to escape bond taxation as straight interest_.
> 
> furthermore, you are the very party who first introduced the notion of selling put options in this thread, as a strategy to escape bond taxation. Post # 15 upthread. Having floated your option proposal, surely it is inappropriate for you to commence scoffing at your own idea.
> 
> ...


I am sorry. I regret it. I made a grave mistake.

Let me make a confession to you. That night I was drunk. I felt lonely. I had a lot of potential energy built up in me. I thought it would be a one-and-done deal. Naturally, I lost my mind and did it. Had I known better, I would have cut off my fingers before typing that post.


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