# Complex situation: What'll be the amount of total OAS/GIS payment for me and wife



## matts19 (Nov 26, 2013)

I & wife are in a complex situation.

We currently live in the US. I am Canadian while my wife is Korean. We plan to come back to Canada eventually to retire.
I am qualified to receive full OAS while my wife will only become a landed immigrant in Canada when we retire. So, let us assume she gets $0 for OAS (not bothering to get into the partial OAS thing).

We have no other sources of income such as RRSP or IRA or 401k.

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/pdf/sv-oas-july-sept-2015.pdf

We estimate that collectively we will be getting about $27500/year from the U.S. benefits system, which I am sure will be recognized as earned income for determining OAS/GIS for us.

For me I think that I will be entitled to the following:

OAS = $564.87
GIS for spouse/common-law partner of someone who does not receive an OAS pension = $283.01
Combined Monthly OAS Pension and GIS = $847.88

So the total for me will be $847.88. Is this correct ?

On the other hand,

GIS for spouse/common-law partner of someone who receives an OAS pension = 0
For each recipient Combined Monthly OAS Pension and GIS = $564.87

Does "For each recipient" mean that we will get $564.87 * 2 = $1129.74 ?

.. and further, does this mean that we would be receiving $847.88 + $1129.74 = $1977.62, or would it be that my OAS of $564.87 was doubly counted, in which case it would be $1412.75 ?

Thank you for your advice.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

I am not an expert in govt benefits however I think your answer is found here:http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/payments/tab3-27.shtml

(A total of $847.88 for your OAS & GIS) I am assuming your wife is not a legal Canadian and not eligible for OAS, and that you are eligible for full OAS and GIS based on your combined other income. 

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/pension/calculate.shtml
http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/gis/index.shtml

I suggest contacting service Canada directly to confirm.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Keep in mind that the Canadian government will convert from US dollars to Canadian dollars.

In the case of your wife I don't know if she could count in any estimate due to not being Canadian.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

Matts19 - If your wife won't have enough residence in Canada to qualify for OAS and if your estimate of $27,500 from the U.S. is in Cdn$, you are correct that you will receive $564.87 OAS + $283.01 GIS for a total of $847.88.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dogger1953 said:


> Matts19 - If your wife won't have enough residence in Canada to qualify for OAS and if your estimate of $27,500 from the U.S. is in Cdn$, you are correct that you will receive $564.87 OAS + $283.01 GIS for a total of $847.88.


The OP mentions that he and his wife will be receiving $27,500 in income from the US Benefits system. That is going to change his Canadian benefits. 
If they are married and file as a couple I doubt they will be getting any GIS with that kind of income.

I'm presently in that income range and I get a yearly letter from Service Canada that I don't qualify for GIS because of my reported income. 
I just got a letter from Service Canada that my reviewed reported income exceeds the maximum amount.

in the letter it states:


> Each year the CRA provides your income information they receive through your tax return. We use this information to review your entitlement to the Guaranteed Income Supplement, the Allowance or the Allowance for survivor benefits.


There was an X in box besides:


> Your income (*or in the case of a couple your combined income*) exceeds the maximum amount.


So it is doubtful, at least to me, that the OP and his wife will be able to get any GIS, if his US benefits income, (which also has to be reported to CRA, if he wants to be considered for any Canadian benefits) will be considered by Service Canada for the GIS, 
as their combined income is more than the maximum threshold of $17,135.99 per annum.

From the above links provided: You are eligible to receive a GIS benefit IF..


> your annual income (
> 
> 
> > or in the case of a couple, your combined income
> ...


Based on their combined income, his OAS benefit may also be reduced as well. 

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/payments/tab1-43.shtml#above

If someone knows any different, please let me know, as I could use the extra couple of hundred a month entitlement right now.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Daniel A. said:


> Keep in mind that the *Canadian government will convert from US dollars to Canadian dollars*.
> 
> In the case of your wife I don't know if she could count in any estimate due to not being Canadian.


 Important point. The Canadian gov't will always factor in the exchange on the US dollar. If a retirement scenario was to happen right now with a estimated $27.500 US benefits package, the Canadian gov't would consider the pensioner as to "living in Canada", and convert the US benefits income amount to Canadian.

At todays exchange rate of $1 Cdn = .76 US...that benefits package would be calculated as $35,348.50 Canadian.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

Carverman - There are 5 different "rate tables", with different maximum incomes allowed for the GIS/Allowance depending on marital status and whether the other spouse/partner is receiving OAS or not. In Matts19 situation where he is receiving the full OAS and his wife is not eligible for OAS, the maximum combined income for him to receive any GIS is $41,088 (not counting the OAS itself), so he will qualify for GIS of $283.01 under rate table 3. 

Here is a different link to Service Canada: http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/payments/index.shtml


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dogger1953 said:


> Carverman - There are 5 different "rate tables", with different maximum incomes allowed for the GIS/Allowance depending on marital status and whether the other spouse/partner is receiving OAS or not. In Matts19 situation where he is receiving the full OAS and his wife is not eligible for OAS, the maximum combined income for him to receive any GIS is $41,088 (not counting the OAS itself), so he will qualify for GIS of $283.01 under rate table 3.
> 
> Here is a different link to Service Canada: http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/payments/index.shtml


Ok, looking at table 3, if a US income of $27,500 is converted at today's exchange rate, thats over $35,000 CAN and the GIS benefit for a couple will be $119.01


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

carverman said:


> Ok, looking at table 3, if a US income of $27,500 is converted at today's exchange rate, thats over $35,000 CAN and the GIS benefit for a couple will be $119.01


Yes, unless Matts19 had already done that conversion before he asked his question.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dogger1953 said:


> Yes, unless Matts19 had already done that conversion before he asked his question.


He didn't mention his age or his wife's, but if the Harper gov't gets back in, they will probably extend the qualifications for OAS again as more and more retirees start
drawing OAS. 




> Starting in April 2023, the age of eligibility will gradually increase:
> 
> from 65 to* 67 for the Old Age Security (OAS) pension and the Guaranteed Income Supplement (GIS)*
> from 60 to 62 for the Allowance and the Allowance for the Survivor.
> ...


In 2023, just 8 years from now, some will have to wait longer to collect those gov't benefits, so it is best not to count all your chickens yet.
IN 2029 , 14 years from now, you better have some other source of income to sustain you if you can't work and already at age 65.


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## matts19 (Nov 26, 2013)

I think I am pretty clear on my side. Yes 27500 combined income from US is $CDN dollar

What about my wife... what I am confused about is whether she will receive anything. I know she won't have any OAS, but is she entitled to GIS by virtue of:

GIS for spouse/common-law partner of someone who receives an OAS pension = 0
For each recipient, Combined Monthly OAS Pension and GIS = $564.87

That does sound applicable to my wife situation, doesn't it ? (and if it does apply, then what does "each recipient" mean... does it mean $564.87 x 2 including for myself ?)

Thanks as always for helping out with these tricky questions..


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

matts19: Can you please clarify something? it sounds as if you have been a non-resident of Canada most of your adult life. (You make no reference to having any CPP benefits.) So how do you qualify for full OAS? http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/pension/calculate.shtml

Is this because of the coordination of benefits between Canada and US? If so, you may find your US benefits reduced, because I very much doubt the coordination is intended to allow you to collect full benefits from both countries.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

matts19 said:


> ...
> What about my wife... what I am confused about is whether she will receive anything. I know she won't have any OAS, but is she entitled to GIS by virtue of:
> 
> ...


No. Your wife is not eligible for GIS, because she is not eligible for OAS.

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/gis/index.shtml

_*Am I eligible?*

You qualify for the Guaranteed Income Supplement if you meet all of the following conditions:

- you are a legal resident of Canada
- *you are receiving an Old Age Security pension*
- your annual income (or in the case of a couple, your combined income) is lower than the maximum annual income._


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

matts19 said:


> I think I am pretty clear on my side. Yes 27500 combined income from US is $CDN dollar
> 
> What about my wife... what I am confused about is whether she will receive anything. I know she won't have any OAS, but is she entitled to GIS by virtue of:
> 
> ...


matts19 - Your wife's eligibility for the GIS/Allowance depends on her age and her residence in Canada, as well as your joint income level. If she's between age 60 and 65, she could be eligible for the Allowance, but only if she has at least 10 years of residence in Canada. If she's over age 65, she could be eligible to GIS but only if she's eligible for OAS also. Otherwise she receives nothing.


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

matts19 I think but don't know for certain your wife may fall under sponsorship rules.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> matts19: Can you please clarify something? it sounds as if you have been a non-resident of Canada most of your adult life. (You make no reference to having any CPP benefits.) So how do you qualify for full OAS? http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/pension/calculate.shtml
> 
> Is this because of the coordination of benefits between Canada and US? If so, you may find your US benefits reduced, because I very much doubt the coordination is intended to allow you to collect full benefits from both countries.


This was exactly what I was thinking. You have to be a Canadian citizen or have landed immigrant status to even qualify for the OAS, much less the GIS. 
If you have lived and paid taxes in Canada, but currently living in the US, there may be other rules that apply in those cases.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> N*o. Your wife is not eligible for GIS, because she is not eligible for OAS*.


+1 ^^^^ 
This would make sense to me, otherwise a Canadian citizen could go off and find a wife in a foreign country, then come back to Canada and expect the gov't to support her
at pensionable years, when she has not lived in Canada up to then, or worked here and paid Canadian income taxes. Not sure about CPP.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

_The Canada Pension Plan (CPP) survivor's pension is paid to the person who, at the time of death, is the legal spouse or common-law partner of the deceased contributor._

As far as I am aware there are no restrictions on the citizenship or residency of the survivor. The amount of the survivor's pension will vary with the age of the survivor, if she much younger than the deceased pensioner.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> matts19: Can you please clarify something? it sounds as if you have been a non-resident of Canada most of your adult life. (You make no reference to having any CPP benefits.) So how do you qualify for full OAS? http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/pension/calculate.shtml
> 
> *Is this because of the coordination of benefits between Canada and US? If so, you may find your US benefits reduced, because I very much doubt the coordination is intended to allow you to collect full benefits from both countries*.


I receive close to the maximum CPP benefit, having worked in Canada for most of my adult life, and I also receive my late American husband's full U.S. Social Security Pension. I have never lived or worked in the US, and have never paid into their Social Security system, but nothing is deducted from either my CPP or my Social Security. I have never looked iinto the reasons why - perhaps different rules apply to a Canadian survivor of an American spouse?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> I receive close to the maximum CPP benefit, having worked in Canada for most of my adult life, and I also receive my late American husband's full U.S. Social Security Pension. I have never lived or worked in the US, and have never paid into their Social Security system, but nothing is deducted from either my CPP or my Social Security. I have never looked into the reasons why - perhaps different rules apply to a Canadian survivor of an American spouse?


Your case is different Karen. 

1. You have lived and worked in Canada all your adult life.
2. You receive survivor benefits from the US. This does not affect your eligibility for CPP. You can even work and collect CPP if you wish. 
Not sure if you are eligible to collect GIS as a widow, but for now the assumption is that you are not.

We are discussing the eligibility for GIS here, where the spouse of the OP may have not lived, or worked in Canada, but may be living with the OP if he comes to Canada
upon retirement.

I have lived and worked in Canada all my life and paid income taxes, CPP, property taxes, sales taxes, EI and more taxes I'm sure.

I do not qualify for GIS at at time when my living costs are going up, yet my Nortel DB pension (reduced to 33%) is in the process of being wound up, and probably reduced further.

I am now disabled in a wheelchair.

Service Canada has informed me by letter, that my income before personal exemptions is NOT eligible for any GIS relief..not one cent, as my income is above the threshold for a 
single person living alone and trying to make ends meet.

Yet, CRA has a completely different set of rules for those that may have not lived in this country, contributed to this country financially, and now they are entitled to more
benefits that I cannot receive at a TIME WHEN I NEED THESE BENEFITS THE MOST.

What's wrong with this picture?
This just speaks discrimination against those that live in this country. Sorry to sound like a bleeding heart.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

_... Yet, CRA has a completely different set of rules for those that may have not lived in this country, contributed to this country financially, and now they are entitled to more benefits that I cannot receive at a TIME WHEN I NEED THESE BENEFITS THE MOST...._

Carverman, your frustration is understandable, but I think you have picked the wrong target. The "people" your are referring to generally are not entitled to the same benefits as you. Eligibility for OAS requires a minimum 10 years legal residency, and the amount of the OAS is reduced proportionally if you have less then 40 years residency as an adult. And GIS, assuming the person meets the requirement for minimum OAS payment, is income-dependent, just as yours is.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation, carverman. I was surprised that I was able to collect both the Canadian and the America pensions with no penalties, but I was obviously pleased about it and never questioned the reasons.

It doesn't seem right to me that people who have never lived in Canada and never paid taxes here should be eligible for GIS at all. I believe that their families, who presumably sponsor them as immigrants, should be responsible for supporting them.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

This is another can of worms, dealing with immigration policy, that should likely be a separate thread, if we dare touch it at all.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

OhGreatGuru said:


> _... Yet, CRA has a completely different set of rules for those that may have not lived in this country, contributed to this country financially, and now they are entitled to more benefits that I cannot receive at a TIME WHEN I NEED THESE BENEFITS THE MOST...._
> 
> Carverman, your frustration is understandable, but I think you have picked the wrong target. The "people" your are referring to generally are not entitled to the same benefits as you. Eligibility for OAS requires a minimum 10 years legal residency, and the amount of the OAS is reduced proportionally if you have less then 40 years residency as an adult. And GIS, assuming the person meets the requirement for minimum OAS payment, is income-dependent, just as yours is.


OGG - You're correct as far as the OAS eligibility is concerned, but there is an issue with GIS that favours people who receive partial OAS pensions. For instance someone who receives a partial OAS of 10/40ths and has the same income of $27,500 as matts19 would receive OAS of $141.22 but their GIS would be increased to $706.66 so that they would receive the same total OAS/GIS of $847.88. This "top-up" of GIS also has the effect of making the max income cutoff for GIS table 3 for someone receiving 10/40ths to be $61,423 compared to $41,088 if they were receiving the full OAS. A further issue is that OAS is taxable and GIS isn't, so the person receiving 10/40ths OAS is potentially better off than the person receiving full OAS.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

Karen said:


> Thanks for the explanation, carverman. I was surprised that I was able to collect both the Canadian and the America pensions with no penalties, but I was obviously pleased about it and never questioned the reasons.
> 
> It doesn't seem right to me that people who have never lived in Canada and never paid taxes here should be eligible for GIS at all. I believe that their families, who presumably sponsor them as immigrants, should be responsible for supporting them.


Karen - Someone who enters Canada as a sponsored immigrant is not eligible for GIS until the sponsorship period expires. They are further not eligible for GIS unless/until they qualify for OAS, which normally requires at least 10 years of residence in Canada.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> Thanks for the explanation, carverman. I was surprised that I was able to collect both the Canadian and the America pensions with no penalties, but I was obviously pleased about it and never questioned the reasons.
> 
> It doesn't seem right to me that people who have never lived in Canada and never paid taxes here should be eligible for GIS at all. I believe that their families, who presumably sponsor them as immigrants, should be responsible for supporting them.


Another major mess-up of the Harper gov't. 
When pensioners such as myself feeling the sting of economic recession and pension reduction situation beyond our control, have been denied benefits we were entitled to.
We approached the Harper gov't as a collective group and were told ...."Sorry there is nothing we can do to help you..you are on your own",
yet they keep changing the rules for those that have never worked here, so that these immigrants/expats can come back to Canada in their retirement years and reap the benefits and enjoy living
for income taxes they never paid here, while they worked somewhere else.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dogger1953 said:


> This "top-up" of GIS also has the effect of making the max income cutoff for GIS table 3 for someone receiving 10/40ths to be $61,423 compared to $41,088 if they were receiving the full OAS. *A further issue is that OAS is taxable and GIS isn't, so the person receiving 10/40ths OAS is potentially better off than the person receiving full OAS.*


What is the minimum income in order (poverty line) to have your personal exemptions cancel out any taxes payable? Around $21,359 I believe. So I am about $10K just above the poverty line and don't
qualify for GIS, being single, living alone, and having to support myself being disabled.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Dogger1953 said:


> Karen - Someone who enters Canada as a sponsored immigrant is not eligible for GIS until the sponsorship period expires. They are further not eligible for GIS unless/until they qualify for OAS, which normally requires at least 10 years of residence in Canada.


I was aware of that, Dogger - I just didn't make that clear in my post. I was also aware of the situation you described in your previous post where you explained that immigrants receiving 10/40s of the OAS are actually better off than if they received full OAS, and I think that is terribly wrong. Why on earth should an immigrant who has never paid tax in this country be entitled to more GIS than people like carverman who worked and paid taxes in Canada all his life, and now, through absolutely no fault of his own, finds himself short of money during his retirement years?

The other point I was trying to make is that I don't think there should be an end to the sponsorship period, particularly when it applies to elderly parents who are brought to Canada to live with their Canadian children. They have never contributed anything to this country and their children should be responsible for supporting them. That's my opinion, and I know many people will not agree with me.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> I was aware of that, Dogger - I just didn't make that clear in my post. I was also aware of the situation you described in your previous post where you explained that immigrants receiving 10/40s of the OAS are actually better off than if they received full OAS, and I think that is terribly wrong. Why on earth should an immigrant who has never paid tax in this country be entitled to more GIS than people like carverman who worked and paid taxes in Canada all his life, and now, through absolutely no fault of his own, finds himself short of money during his retirement years?


Because the Harper gov't discriminates without paying any attention to todays economics. A single person living alone, still has to pay rent or property taxes, 
home expenses, electricity, water and home insurance, besides personal needs. 

The Harper gov't determines that a single person living alone doesn't need any GIS assistance, but a couple living together with the same basic expenses
does.


> Your income *(or in the case of a couple your combined income*) exceeds the maximum amount.


 ^^^^^^
This is what I received from Service Canada. 

What they are saying then, is that if I had someone else living with me as a 'couple", it wouldn't make any difference, since I am not married or living common law.
This appears to be Service Canada's discrimination, saying that two people as cheap as than one. The basic expenses for rent, or home expenses do not change whether one or two people live at the same address.


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## OldPro (Feb 25, 2015)

Getting back to the OP and his situation (it is his thread and question after all), It is still not clear that enough information has been provided to be able to answer his question correctly.

First, we need to know his age, his wife's age, when they will move to Canada(he will have to sponsor her for a Permanent Resident Visa and that currently is running over 2 years before they are granted, so they won't be moving here any time soon), how many years after age 18 and up to age 65 he has lived in Canada. He may not qualify for full OAS himself even though he says he does. He must have lived here for 40 years AFTER age 18 to qualify for full OAS. And what about his CPP pension?

So to answer his question, we must first have answers to the relevant questions I have listed. Only then can anyone start cofirming what they will and will not be eligible for. 

One other factor that may be relevant is Income Splitting. He may be able to reduce his income by splitting it and in that way be eligible for GIS that he would not otherwise be eligible for. But again, without the rest of the info needed, there is no way to answer his questions.


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## Dogger1953 (Dec 14, 2012)

OldPro said:


> Getting back to the OP and his situation (it is his thread and question after all), It is still not clear that enough information has been provided to be able to answer his question correctly.
> 
> First, we need to know his age, his wife's age, when they will move to Canada(he will have to sponsor her for a Permanent Resident Visa and that currently is running over 2 years before they are granted, so they won't be moving here any time soon), how many years after age 18 and up to age 65 he has lived in Canada. He may not qualify for full OAS himself even though he says he does. He must have lived here for 40 years AFTER age 18 to qualify for full OAS. And what about his CPP pension?
> 
> ...


OldPro - You are right on many of your points, but I tried to limit my response to what the OP was asking and I accepted his other statements as facts. You are wrong about income-splitting being a factor though, because GIS for a married pensioner is based on their combined income so it doesn't matter which of them claims it for tax purposes.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

OldPro is also wrong that the OP won't be able to move back to Canada with his wife until she has received permanent resident status. My late American husband came to Canada as a visitor, we were married while he was here, and we then applied for his permanent resident status using the "applying from within Canada" application process (which applies only to spouses). The only disadvantage to using that process was that he was not able to leave Canada until his application had been approved or there was no guarantee that he would be allowed back in; if that had happened his application would have been cancelled. I asked a Citizenship and Immigration official what the criterion would have been for Canada Customs officer to decide whether to let him back in or not, and she told me (and I quote): "It really just depends on what side of the bed he or she got up on that morning." Needless to say, we didn't take any chances and he stayed here for the 15-month period it took to deal with his application.


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## OldPro (Feb 25, 2015)

Yes, my mistakes. But that just goes to show we all need all the info to work with. Then we can correct what one or the other gets wrong based on knowing all the facts to begin with.


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