# People on this forum are very wealthy...



## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

I'm reading the diaries and most people have super high income and amazing net worth...

Makes me wonder if people sharing their money diary tracking are mostly the wealthy while others don't share as they feel intimidated.

Well, maybe that's just my own feeling...

You'll say don't compare to others, compare to yourself. That's true. But it's also good to try to find a reference from other people in similar situations.

I lived on a farm all my young years with my stepdad working 85h/week, 7 days/week, 365 days/year and the household income was somewhere between $30k and $50k. I never went on vacation with them other than once a road trip to Florida for 1 week when I was very young and another road trip when I was a young adult and we went to Old Orchard beach for 1 week. Sure, now that my stepdad sold, he's a millionaire in his 60s, yet all those years of hard physical work had repercussions on his health. And maybe he's a millionaire now, but he lived a very simple life until now, on very tight finances and no free time. I mean, when you're a farmer, Christmas? Working. New Year's Eve? Working. Oh, right, he tried to make it a day where he had to work less than usual, meaning he worked only 8h those days instead of 12h.

Luckily, I was very good at school and I went to the path of becoming an engineer. Unluckily, I never truly found my career calling, so I'm bored like hell and I do it only for the money, frequently depressed by the idea that I'm wasting my potential.

I've always been frugal but I didn't get the "best" financial education from my parents (in my opinion) as all they thought me was to put my money in GICs. But they did well about teaching me the value of money and that I should save, that's for sure. But not on how to make decent returns on those savings.

I don't get how some diaries on this forum are stories of people in their late 20s and who already have a property and over $100k in investments. I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong. Sure, I lived my late 20s after I got out of the university at 25, meaning I went on 1-2 weeks vacations every year, at a cost of about $5k/year. Sure, I bought a $10k motorcycle. Sure, I learned to skydive solo at a cost of $2k. But I don't think that's outrageous.

I got out of the university at 25, started saving $150/week, increased those savings by 10% every year as my salary increased. That means I was saving about 15% of my gross income. Engineers should have a decent income, no? Maybe because I live in Quebec... I started at $50k and 8 years later I'm at $100k. I feel like I'm doing good.

Yet... I bought a property in 2019, that was 6 years after I got out of school. When I got out of school, I still had about $20k and I invested $150/week, increased those savings by 10% every year, which got me around $100k after 6 years. I was not aware of DIY investing at that time, so those savings were in a mutual fund at about 7% I guess, maybe less, I don't recall.

$100k at 31 years old, not bad? But then I bought a rental property, got married, made huge renovations and now I just got a baby. In my personal account, I now have much less than 6 figures. In our joint account, we have no savings yet, and only about $10k cash which is our monthly transaction money. My spouse had no savings and it's not because she spent too much, but because she was still at school at 29 and then she started with an income of no more than $15k.

Now, I make $100k, she makes $90k, we make $15k from the rent, we have $0 savings in joint account but $10k cash. She still has no savings in her personal account. I have some savings in my personal account. We have a $600k mortgage, the property is worth about $800k today and we have a $100k debt due to renovations.

We have a $200k household income, we're definitely not poor. Sure, it's pretty recent. Still, how can some people already have a property in their late 20s or young 30s and 6 figures in liquid investments... You'll tell me I've put too much on the property and renovations? Well, that's the cost nowadays and since we now have $200k income, it isn't too much. The proportion of income going into the property is high, maybe a bit over the average, but definitely not outrageous. And even if I hadn't bought a property, what would we have today? $150k in liquid investments, but no property?

I'm 33 and she's 35 soon 36. I don't see how we will get to $1M+ in our mid-40s like I'm reading in many diaries. Though I have the goal to reach $1M+ in my personal account by my 50s, but I'll need very strong returns... And at least my spouse will have a DB pension from the federal government, so her lack of savings at the moment doesn't worry me too much as she's indirectly saving money taken out of her salary for her DB pension.

I'm still hoping that we'll be able to retire in our 50s or work part-time. That's young, most people don't retire before 60 or 65. But, man, with $200k household income, I hope we should get ahead at some point...


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

People are definitely wealthy on here.

I try not to read the diaries because it makes me want to kill myself. Some people have been lucky, some people have worked hard, some people have saved every dollar and not lived, and some have done a combination.

I'm a 31 year old dropout that makes 100k/yr and I have a 600k+ NW.

I couldn't even tell you what I did.
I worked a lot. Let me repeat this. I worked a lot.

I saved. Invested. Hustled.

I think you're doing fine. 200k household income is good. The problem is more likely the year that you were born and the time you purchased a home and that is something you can't control.

I try to only compare myself to people within my age range (+/- 2 years). Also, keep in mind that there are some things that have allowed me to get by with less expenses (I don't have a wife, which means no ring to buy, wedding to pay for, and I don't have a child, either).

You are right that you probably won't hit 1M for your 40s... But you can definitely do it for your 50s.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I would like to add to what I've said.

Because I was a dropout, that allowed me to make money and save it sooner. While people were in university studying and spending 10k a year for tuition... I was working 2 jobs and making 60k a year and living at my mom's.

Due to the insane asset bubble we have found ourselves in, I simply just got lucky.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

KaeJS said:


> I would like to add to what I've said.
> 
> Because I was a dropout, that allowed me to make money and save it sooner. While people were in university studying and spending 10k a year for tuition... I was working 2 jobs and making 60k a year and living at my mom's.
> 
> Due to the insane asset bubble we have found ourselves in, I simply just got lucky.


Yeah, I was about to comment. It's hard to tell what's the better choice. Sure, there're statistics that people who went to the university end up with higher income, but personally I wouldn't stress too much on that. Entrepreneurs and people working hard in the right field don't need the studies.

Me and my cousin had almost the same path, but he decided to stop before university, while I went to the university for 4 years. When I got out of school, he was definitely making more than me and had more savings. "Luckily" for me, I got ahead of him now for the income, so my studies paid off, but it took me 8 years. And then there's just luck. He bought a property much sooner than I did, but had kids much sooner than I did and her girlfriend makes much less than my wife. So, in the end, he had to sell his property to go back to a rental, then bought another property, he had to work during the weekends to help paying for the kids and so on... So he's currently working much more than I do, but ends up with less. But that's just the luck of life events.

I know programmers/developers who didn't go to the university and started their career at 19. Now 34 with 15 years of experience and all those pay raises in a well-payed job so they are now super senior with super high income. Certainly one of the best career path, but that wasn't for me.



KaeJS said:


> which means no ring to buy, wedding to pay for


Yeah, I wasn't too hot about spending for a wedding and my wife knew it so we managed to make a decent wedding that had net zero cost. Including rings, clothes, reception, food, alcohol, it cost $7k (and it didn't feel cheap). And we were lucky enough to get $7k in gifts from the 60 guests.



KaeJS said:


> I would like to add to what I've said.
> 
> Because I was a dropout, that allowed me to make money and save it sooner. While people were in university studying and spending 10k a year for tuition... I was working 2 jobs and making 60k a year and living at my mom's.
> 
> Due to the insane asset bubble we have found ourselves in, I simply just got lucky.


Working while living at your parents' definitely help a lot. I couldn't do that, I had to move out.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We are moving into the greatest period of generational transfer of wealth in our history. It is one reason why you see financial institutions looking to acquire advisory firms that cater to High Net Worth clients. 

In some instances the homes and farms of our parents are worth millions of dollars. It often does not show in lifestyle.

The stock market is at an all time high at the same time we have experienced a ten year period of very low inflation.

Sometimes it is a combo of hard work, high remunerations, careful saving/investing, or participation in an employee stock purchase program, pay for performance, or company stock options that become extremely lucrative. Or very successful entrepreneurship or just good luck with the lottery ticket


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

For the 'typical' professional and/or dual income family, the major wealth creating years usually start in their '40s. Until then, a ton of money 'has' to leave one's wallet for raising kids and getting auto loans and mortgages paid off. That 'watershed' can happen a bit earlier or a bit later depending on earning power and fiscal discipline along the way, but when it happens, one will be surprised how fast net worth can climb.

I may not be typical, or atypical, but I didn't have student loans paid off until circa 26-27 years old...about the same time we started raising a family and bought our first house, a pretty low key duplex Our fiscal discipline allowed us to pay off the mortgage (of an upgraded two storey) by age 40 after which all 'surplus' funds went into investments. It allowed me to retire comfortably at 57. It did help that I reached junior executive ranks with stock options by the time I was 45 so had more income than the typical professional, but still, good fiscal management and a firm investment plan built the 'wealth'.

This might look beyond reach for someone currently in their 20s and 30s but it is not necessarily so.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

School til 29? Seems long for a $90k income? Change of education stream or yet to reach full earnings potential?

We made a lot of our net worth by moving a couple a few times. Profited $50k, $200k, $600k each time, until we downsized.

besides, thst I was saving about 20% of my $100k income. Maxed out rsp every year, and tried to do the same with tfsa. Was into equities from about age 23 on……

one of my best decisions…..not buying a car until I could pay for it in cash. Bought my first car at age 24. Got stolen, bough a used car with the insurance proceeds. Have paid cash for every car since. Not having a $300, $400, $500 car payment each month, leaves a lot of room for saving. My mortgages were all relatively small…I think the largest was $200k. Monthly payment never more than $1400.

You‘re doing fine…to me, it’s all about choices……want the big house with big expenses, and a big mortgage payment….that’s fine….but know that you’re probably gonna be a little light in liquid investments for awhile.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I'd say your gut feeling is correct. They simply don't post here.

Median income for a 25-34 year old is $41,700. 
Median income for a 35-44 year old is $51,500.

Median household income is $62,900.

When you realize that half of people/households are making less than that, it really puts things into perspective.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

My employment income last year was 55k which is pretty close to the median income at my age group.

@MrBlackhill your household income at 190k is *3.5X my income.*

The only reason I am 'well off' is that I've been working for a long time, now about 20 years of employment (since I started around age 16), and I routinely invested ... at quite moderate rates of return by the way. This stuff about invested money adding up over time is no joke, by the way.

My income has been higher at times, but also lower at times. I really haven't had tremendous cumulative employment income. I just am frugal and continuously invest.

I know that you have a house and many renovations. If you saw where I lived, I suppose you might feel sorry for me, that I am impoverished, I don't even own a car. But make no mistake, you are RICH.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

^ He already said he makes 100k...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Mr Blackhill, do the companies that you and your wife work for have pension plans? We have more in our investments than some of our friends/relatives do, and they may think we are well off. But some of them have pensions for life. For example two teachers or government workers. We probably don't have the money it would take to buy their pensions!

By the way, I am (was!) also an engineer and also started out in Quebec. My wife initially brought up the kids. Later she ran a small side business I had started. Total Income probably not much different than yours. One difference back then, was that homes cost a smaller % of our income than they do these days. Getting the mortgage paid off as soon as possible allowed us to start investing. Our first home (3 yr old 3BR sidesplit, nice subdivision) cost us less than 2x my annual salary.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

KaeJS said:


> ^ He already said he makes 100k...


He makes 100k and his wife makes another 90k, so they make 190k together. Plus they benefit from the efficiency of pooled living and other tax breaks for married people with kids.

Dual income earners @MrBlackhill and wife are quite wealthy by any measure I can think of.

Here's a rough calc. With 190k gross they might have 130k net income. I think a modern middle class family, with one kid, can probably have a pretty great lifestyle with 90k annual expenses. That means you can probably save/accumulate 40k per year and that's before considering things like RRSP deductions plus company matching contributions.

Saving 40k a year, even at a moderate balanced fund kind of 6% CAGR, adds up to $1 million in only 16 years of working. And it hits $2 million in just 23 years of working.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

A million dollars over 16 years is going to be worth not very much...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

KaeJS said:


> A million dollars over 16 years is going to be worth not very much...


I think you can still count on a 4% to 5% *real* return. Nothing to sneeze at! Even a typical dumb old, HIGH FEE balanced fund had a 6% return over the last twenty years or about 4% real return.

I'm a conservative investor and had an even lower return, maybe only 3% real return since I started investing about 20 years ago. It DOES add up, even after inflation.

This is a game with long term rewards. In the short term, you don't see anything happening. It rewards disciplined, consistent long term savers and investors.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

But who can live on 40k?

That's pretty low. 1 million at 4% real return is 40k a year. 40k isn't much in today's dollars. Imagine 40k in 16 years from now?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Then work a few more years and it hits 2 million. Once you get to the higher numbers, the compounding effect is quite significant.

I come from a math background and even for me, this stuff is very counter intuitive. It doesn't seem like it should work like this, but it really does... over the long term.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Money172375 said:


> School til 29? Seems long for a $90k income? Change of education stream or yet to reach full earnings potential?


Like me, her studies path wasn't a straight line. She did two bachelor's and one master's. And like some people, a master's degree doesn't mean a high income. Getting a job at the federal government was the right thing to do for her, otherwise she would still be making less than $20k or she would've found something more stable at around $50k or $70k maybe. Her current $90k is very lucky.



Money172375 said:


> one of my best decisions…..not buying a car until I could pay for it in cash. Bought my first car at age 24. Got stolen, bough a used car with the insurance proceeds. Have paid cash for every car since. Not having a $300, $400, $500 car payment each month, leaves a lot of room for saving.


Yes, I was lucky that my first car was paid by my dad when I was 16, worth about $2k I guess. I kept it 7 years, then bought a $9k car. Kept it another 7 years and sold it as we kept only my wife's $8k car. I also never rented a car and always bought used.



agent99 said:


> Mr Blackhill, do the companies that you and your wife work for have pension plans? We have more in our investments than some of our friends/relatives do, and they may think we are well off. But some of them have pensions for life. For example two teachers or government workers. We probably don't have the money it would take to buy their pensions!


Yes, exactly, now that she works for the federal government, I don't worry too much about her lack of savings because she has a DB pension taken on her salary. On my side, I changed job less than a year ago and this job has a share purchase plan. So far I'm lucky because the shares bought through the share purchase plan are up +27% YTD, but it's a small cap so it may not hold, and it's just the beginning of my purchases.



james4beach said:


> Then work a few more years and it hits 2 million. Once you get to the higher numbers, the compounding effect is quite significant.
> 
> I come from a math background and even for me, this stuff is very counter intuitive. It doesn't seem like it should work like this, but it really does... over the long term.


I plan to retire once I reach $1M inflation adjusted. If things turn right, I may aim for $2M.



KaeJS said:


> But who can live on 40k?


We live both on $120k net household, but once the mortgage is paid and once the kid leaves the house, that would certainly free up $50k so we would live on $70k net household, so once everything is paid $40k for each of us would be enough. And if we keep renting that apartment in our rental property that would certainly add another $15k (gross).


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I think you can live off of 40k a year quite easily in vast majority of places. Of course it is largely dependent on what you spend on housing.
Can't forget that spending profile changes in retirement.

Personally, I started work in 2016 after finishing university (debt free as I worked in high school and uni) and in 2020 got a raise that would amount to 120k/year income. Unfortunately 2 months later we were shut down because of restrictions. So starting from scratch in new job at 60k/year.
Invested some money, got around 200k net worth by my estimation at 29.
Not great, not terrible. Unfortunately the 50% drop in salary will hurt and postpone my retirement by a decade, but it is what it is.
I plan to retire at around 800k net worth. Will cover my expenses twice at 5% return (no plan to retire in Canada).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> Still, how can some people already have a property in their late 20s or young 30s and 6 figures in liquid investments


I don't know anyone like this by the way. Here in BC it's common for wealthy boomer parents to help buy a property for the kids, but I still don't know anyone who -- like you say -- owns a property at these young ages and still has a lot of investments.

You're wasting too much energy comparing yourself to other people, when you don't know their circumstances. Some people have rich parents.

Just focus on your own situation. You have a very high household income.

@KaeJS said the same thing I did. It sounds like both he and I built up our net worths by working a lot.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Wealthy or rich are such relative terms. I believe that you will not do yourself any good by simply comparing your finances or your station in life to others. 

Far more benefit to understand how those in a stronger financial position, lucrative position, or having a great deal of job satisfaction how they got to where they are/were, and what their best practices from a financial perspective are. It is why I always wanted to work with those who were much smarter than me and could teach me things or skills that I did not have. Even if only by example.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Glad you toughened up, then, and made a money diary Mr Blackhill 

1 - Most people in CMF are at least interested in money saving and investing.

2 - Most people with money diaries do have some money and financial asset growth potential... otherwise it would be a pretty boring diary (spent all the money again this month - life still hard).

3 - People our age (mid-30s) are really stratifying into different economic classes, depending on how their life went so far. We're old enough now where it's starting to show...

Some ended up with careers in technology, finance, accounting, government services (admin, science, medicine, teachers, police, etc.) and have made big raises along with the "real" inflation of the "growth" sector parts of the economy. Many of these people also bought urban real estate 5-15 years ago which have increased 2-4 times in value, and some invested in stocks even. I am actually surprised there are not MORE millenials on CMF with 2M+ net worths. They are probably too busy, or already know what they're doing, or don't care to talk about it on the internet. They are definitely out there...

Many also went the other way. A career in a traditional industry. Construction, manufacturing, traditional engineering, resource extraction, telecom etc. These people haven't had much for raises, live more often in smaller cities with real estate that increased much less, didn't make as much money to invest, and delayed buying a house to save a downpayment. Sounds like you are generally in the 2nd camp, unfortunately. But hey, it could be worse. Seems like you are still on track to a good life. Have a house, wife, baby, good jobs... not much more you can do than keep working away and take what you can get in the future.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

There are 165,000 members and I think the participants in this thread are not representative. However I would venture to say there are four classes of participants:
1) Employees who make a good wage and have some kind of pension 
2) Trades people who make out early but then top out 
3) Professionals who make good money and take another ten years to reach their zenith
4) Enterpreneurs who hit it big (or not) and are comfortably rich.

I have friends in all those categories. They all find a lifestyle that they are happy with. Some have switched. My richest friend started out in 2) and then made it big in 4). I did 3) and then did 4) after a golden handshake. Not a big hit but comfortable. A lot of 4) was associating with other people who were good investors.

My own secret was always being willing to take on the unknown challenge and making it work.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

peterk said:


> Glad you toughened up, then, and made a money diary Mr Blackhill
> 
> 1 - Most people in CMF are at least interested in money saving and investing.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I'll be making a diary, I was just commenting. If I made a diary, it would certainly be like you said in #2 - boring because money is all spent.

I've already mentioned how we end up spending so much.

*Joint account*

$36k mortgage
$5k housing taxes
$10k debt
$6k property maintenance budget
$7k budget for income taxes
$2k insurance (home, life)
$600 internet
$2k electricity
$10k groceries
$1k professional fees
$250 dentist
$125 Office 365
$10k kid
$2.5k kid's RESP
$600 car maintenance
$1k car insurance
$300 car registration
$600 car gas
$3k vacation
$1k a year for the monthly entertainment
$10k goes to her personal expenses
$10k goes to my personal expenses
$5k extra goes to me (I can explain)
*How she uses her $10k*

$700 cell phone
$2.5k dog
$1.7k student debt
$1.5k clothes
$1k pharmaceutics / cosmetics
$1k hair dresser
$400 physiotherapist, osteopath, massotherapist
$120 driver's license
$800 personal activities
*How I use my $10k*

$700 cell phone
$120 hair dresser
$900 dog
$600 clothes
$100 transportation
$1.2k motorcycle
$300 driver's license
$900 personal activities
$5k personal investments
*What about the extra $5k to me*

That's a "semi-joint" investment for retirement, as it belongs to me (in case of break-up) but will be used for both of us (if no break-up)
And I hope that with my $5k + $5k and my current personal investments (which dropped below the 6 figures due to recent property purchase and renovations), I'll reach $1M in 17 years, but that means double-digit CAGR.

The joint account has to pay $10k debt for the next 10 years. And the $6k property maintenance budget will be used for the many things already planned in the next 15 years : garage door, new kitchen for the tenants, new balcony, new bathroom for the tenants, roof, windows, plus the need for a new car at some point. And that's actually not enough money, so hopefully our pay raises will allow us to increase the money going in that maintenance budget.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

kcowan said:


> My own secret was always being willing to take on the unknown challenge and making it work.


I wish I had found that challenge. I'm the kind of guy who can be intensely disciplined and hard working when I have something in mind, very patient, calm, positive and not giving up.

But I never stumbled upon an idea to make money out of my skills and passions.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> For the 'typical' professional and/or dual income family, the major wealth creating years usually start in their '40s. Until then, a ton of money 'has' to leave one's wallet for raising kids and getting auto loans and mortgages paid off. That 'watershed' can happen a bit earlier or a bit later depending on earning power and fiscal discipline along the way, but when it happens, one will be surprised how fast net worth can climb.
> 
> I may not be typical, or atypical, but I didn't have student loans paid off until circa 26-27 years old...about the same time we started raising a family and bought our first house, a pretty low key duplex Our fiscal discipline allowed us to pay off the mortgage (of an upgraded two storey) by age 40 after which all 'surplus' funds went into investments. It allowed me to retire comfortably at 57. It did help that I reached junior executive ranks with stock options by the time I was 45 so had more income than the typical professional, but still, good fiscal management and a firm investment plan built the 'wealth'.
> 
> This might look beyond reach for someone currently in their 20s and 30s but it is not necessarily so.


Same story. DW also thinks it is in the 'genes' Scots heritage.

As my grandfather used to say....take care of the nickels and dimes and the dollars will take care of themselves.

Plus, being brought up in a glass half full environment. Lots of why not do something or you have nothing to loose by taking a chance or grabbing a passing opportunity.. 

My parents both came to Canada on a boat. They gave us the sense of how fortunate we were to be born in Canada and to live in Canada. And how much opportunity there was for anyone who secured an education or a skill, worked hard, and moved forward on all levels. We tried to instill this in our children. Hurts me when I see some idle nephews or nieces complain about Canada simply because they are intent on wishing their respective lives away. Couda, shouda does not pay the bulldog.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

MrBlackhill said:


> I'm not sure I'll be making a diary, I was just commenting. If I made a diary, it would certainly be like you said in #2 - boring because money is all spent.
> 
> I've already mentioned how we end up spending so much.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, and an excellent non-diary post it is too! I look forward to reading future updates. 

I think your ~$110k spending is a bit high for your incomes... but not terribly so. Is there not anywhere you can think about shaving $10k/yr off with low hanging fruit spending or moderately easy "tough choices" about personal spending? Just a bit more off of "grocery, clothes, kids, entertainment, pets" maybe?

Edit: I know it's hard... We went from DINKs 2 years ago, renting, spending $70k/yr including 2 or 3 nice vacations per year... Now homeowners, parents, and finding it hard to keep spending below $90k with no vacations... It's tough when you're exhausted from work, kids, house maintenance, to think about being frugal like I used to. Spending on conveniences is tough to avoid.


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## Saniokca (Sep 5, 2009)

You sound a bit down. Everyone's path is very different - we would have gladly given up a big chunk of our savings to have kids earlier. But life (health) doesn't always accommodate so you do the best you can. A lot of diaries here are like facebook - you rarely see the miserable aspects of life. I used to read them a lot just to see what others are doing and maybe implement some of their ideas for myself. 

I would suggest you get into your own rhythm, and as long as you're comfortable, save, invest and see where it brings you. You're an engineer - set up a simple spreadsheet, maybe a budget (not just for the sake of restricting spending but also to see where your money goes).

For what it's worth, I think you're doing well.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

james4beach said:


> He makes 100k and his wife makes another 90k, so they make 190k together. Plus they benefit from the efficiency of pooled living* and other tax breaks for married people with kids.*


Not sure what those tax breaks you're referring to are... perhaps you thought Harper's income splitting was still in effect? or Trudeau's increased CCB benefits didn't take away from the upper-middle class?

Mr. Blackhill would get $30/month for 1 kid, or $150/month for 2 kids... $0 for being married.


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## R. Austin (May 16, 2020)

One thing you have to remember is that by browsing this forum you’re comparing yourself to the minority of those who have good financial habits and an affinity for planning out their future.
The vast majority of the population I’m sure would look at your situation in awe and feel as though it was an impossibility to get to where you are.
Even myself, at age 27, earning $45k salary+bonus with a paid off 2018 Mazda and $30k invested, I feel like a peasant whenever I come on here. But then I remember I have friends who are living at home, making $40k annually, with $20k in student debt and another $40k in debt for the brand new BMW or Mercedes they just bought which is financed over 7 years. In my line of work I’ve seen people who are in their mid-50s with $0.00 in retirement savings and still a mortgage of a few hundred thousand to go. Now that’s a rough time. 
There’re levels to this world of wealth, people who spend $20k on an average night out and people who’s lives would flip upside down if they had $20k. Just gotta keep pushing forward and keep working hard. Track your spending, track your net worth, and don’t forget to enjoy what you have along the way.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

R. Austin said:


> But then I remember I have friends who are living at home, making $40k annually, with $20k in student debt and another $40k in debt for the brand new BMW or Mercedes they just bought which is financed over 7 years.


Just curious if this is at-all an exaggeration (that's OK if it is  ) ? People *actually* making $40k/yr (i.e. $20/hr) only, and with existing student loans, and they can actually walk into a BMW or mercedes dealership and be handed a *BRAND NEW* $50,000 (absolute base model) luxury car?? They qualify?? That is obscene.

I own BMW and Merc stock (and Ford and GM too) so this is good news for me...but that is really, really ridiculous.

I make $180,000/yr and am fretting about whether I should buy a new Hyundai or not... and have concluded that we can drive our old Hyundai for another year or two and then think about it then... God I'm a dork...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

peterk said:


> I make $180,000/yr and am fretting about whether I should buy a new Hyundai or not.


You're in a rather elite category with that level of income.

@MrBlackhill and wife are also very well off as a household.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> For the 'typical' professional and/or dual income family, the major wealth creating years usually start in their '40s.


Very good point and I heard a financial expert talk about this in a presentation. It's natural for everyone in their 20s and 30s to struggle. You don't hit your peak earning years and start to really accelerate your wealth until the 40s and 50s.

That being said, I don't really believe that a household making over 100K is disadvantaged in any way. That's a very high income for this age. For age 35-44, the Canadian median income is 51,500 and average income 60,900

And that average includes all the people making very high salaries, like people in oil & gas, Bay Street, etc.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

AltaRed said:


> For the 'typical' professional and/or dual income family, the major wealth creating years usually start in their '40s.





james4beach said:


> You don't hit your peak earning years and start to really accelerate your wealth until the 40s and 50s.


I hope it is true, but I hardly believe it is in my case. I sure believe that my financial situation will be better in my 40s because I'll have decreased my debts and bought all what I had to buy, renovated most of what I had to renovate, but I don't think my income will be significantly higher.

I'm saying this because I started at $48k in 2013 and I'm now at $100k in 2021, so that's an average 9.6% increase per year. I hardly believe my salary will continue increasing at that rate. Also, I was just lucky because I changed job and managed to increase my salary.

In my first job, I was super happy with high raises of 5% as I went from $48k to $51k to $54k to $59k (promotion) to $64k in 2017. Then I switched job and negotiated $72k at the end of 2017 and I was so happy how by changing job I made my salary increase 12.5%. I thought "imagine people who stay in the same company for years, they don't get such raises". And then that new company was almost giving free money so my salary increased to $78k the following year. Then new management took things under control and my next raise got me to only $80k after a promotion in 2020, justifying that my salary was already ahead of where it should be it due to poor management the prior years who gave free money, so I was pissed and changed job. I tried to get a huge salary increase again from changing job as I had done previously but then I felt like my skill level in my field was capping me to $85k. Which means I was truly already getting ahead and had to slow down as I was getting overpaid for the job. So I started at $85k at the end of 2020. And then, out of awesomely pure luck, they gave me a promotion just a few months after hiring me which got me to $100k in 2021. In retrospective, from $64k at the beginning of 2017 to $100k at the beginning of 2021, my salary increased by an average 11.8% in 4 years, for a total increase of 56%. That's huge.

I believe that people in my field who are in their 40s are maybe at $140k. That's why I hardly believe that the rate of my salary increase will be similar to what I've experienced in my first 8 years of employment where my salary doubled. I'll be 40 in 7 years and I certainly won't make $200k in 7 years. I'll be happy if I'm at $140k in 7 years, that would be a 5% average increase, which feels huge. That's why I believe my best years of salary increase are behind me.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Rate of percentage increases don't have to be as large to have disproportionate effect at higher salaries. Someone getting a 2 % raise on $150k is just as good as a 3% raise on $100k.. i.e. $3000. That is all cream net of taxes and goes straight to the investment portfolio. 

Lastly, you don't know that you won't make $200k in 7 years .. if you end up in management ranks. It does happen to a select few.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

peterk said:


> I know it's hard... We went from DINKs 2 years ago, renting, spending $70k/yr including 2 or 3 nice vacations per year... Now homeowners, parents, and finding it hard to keep spending below $90k with no vacations... It's tough when you're exhausted from work, kids, house maintenance, to think about being frugal like I used to. Spending on conveniences is tough to avoid.


Yes, to us, traveling is priority #1. So we actually hope to increase that $3k/year to $6k/year so we can at least travel by plane as we used to do before buying a property and having a kid. Therefore, we wouldn't cut there unless it's mandatory to pay an unplanned debt or maintenance.

Otherwise, it's hard to cut somewhere else. Our respective $10k for personal expenses is how we agreed on money splitting (all of our income goes to the joint account, then a budget of $10k a year is given to each of us for personal expenses and we don't have our say on how that $10k is spent, it's personal, while the remaining $100k is in the joint account for household expenses).

I'm trying to cut on the groceries, but my wife is a dietician and we highly value healthy eating, encouraging local food, etc. and even though all what we buy is raw food, it's pretty expensive. We actually never spent $10k in groceries, but I prefer budgeting for more now that we have a kid.

For entertainment, $15 Netflix + one good restaurant per month and that $1k/year budget is already reached.

One thing though. I budget $7k a year in case we have to pay taxes on our rental income, but so far with our expenses the gross $15k we get from rent becomes a net $15k + a tax return. So far, in two years, we didn't have to pay extra taxes so we saved that $7k budgeted.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Just to convert this thread a bit into some kind of money diary, I'll just tell you what's the status of the joint account and what's on our mind at the moment, our current short term goals.

*July 28th, 2021*
Cash : $15k
Credit card : $5k (paid in full every month)
Credit card cash reward current value : $736 (rewarded in November each year)
LoC #1 : $0
LoC #2 : $0

*Upcoming big expenses*
Fence : $2k in August (non-recurring expense)

*Short term goals in mind*
Priority #1 - Debt repayment : accumulate $10k by August 2022
Priority #2 - RESP : accumulate $2.5k by the end of the year
Priority #3 - DB pension "debt" after maternity leave : not sure how much, maybe $8k in July 2022
Priority #4 - Property maintenance fund : accumulate $6k by the end of this year
Priority #5 - Travel : accumulate $6k by Spring 2022

Total to be accumulated during the next 12 months : $32.5k, but minimum $26.5k if not traveling

Also, the joint account owes me $10k, but clearly it won't be repaid in the next 12 months.


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## AbleEng (May 9, 2021)

For me, life just didn't work out at all. I went to an Ivy League university, B.Eng Elec. Came to the city I now live in and grew to hate it. Worked like a dog, but at a job that was my passion, was manipulated and harassed by colleagues, was finally physically attacked at work, and had to leave. I never made over $90K.

The economy tanked, venture capital disappeared, the high tech industry crumbled as I managed to stay one job ahead... and finally at age 50 they laid me off saying I was too old and my skills were outdated. After a year of attending job fairs waiting in line with my colleagues from several past companies, I went back to the government for more job hunting help and they said I had exhausted all their resources. I gave up. It seemed they were right after all.

The marriage died almost before it started, she slept around, she demanded a house, we had a third child who has down's syndrome, that we became dedicated to so he would have a full life at much cost in time, money and will power. He will be with us until we die. May God help him after that. I saved like mad so we could buy a used car once in 10 years to take him places, and still paid off a mortgage in 6 years. The professional engineering group I was in didn't have a clue about investing in expensive mutual funds. They sent us to what they said seemed like the best deal. Who knew.

My wife didn't work for about 10 years after we married. Once the kids were grown and I was unemployed, she refused everything but a very low paying part-time job that she still works at after retiring. She has no investments at all and claims we should have run up credit card bills and had fun. She has been doing that since we separated, and uses my son's pension to do it.

I am almost 70. The thought of $1M is not even a fantasy.
When I get divorced and have to sell this dilapidated house, I have no idea where I can afford to live. I have family here that needs me, and I just can't leave.
And all this after being a good son, a good grandson, a good student, a good husband, a good father, and a good engineer.
I am alone and furious with the world. And I wonder how things could have gone so horribly wrong. Sometimes the answers are more horrible.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

louarnold said:


> For me, life just didn't work out at all. I went to an Ivy League university, B.Eng Elec. Came to the city I now live in and grew to hate it. Worked like a dog, but at a jiob that was my passion, was manipulated and harassed by colleagues, was finally physically attacked at work, and had to leave. I never made over $90K.
> 
> The economy tanked, venture capital disappeared, the high tech industry crumbled as I managed to stay one job ahead... and finally at age 50 they laid me off saying I was too old and my skills were outdated. After a year of attending job fairs waiting in line with my colleagues from several past companies, I went back to the government for more job hunting help and they said I had exhausted all their resources. I gave up. It seemed they were right after all.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for sharing. That's why I keep believing that luck has a lot to do in our lives. I know that many wealthy people believe it's because of their hard work and I agree that there's lazy people out there and people who can't grasp opportunities, but for two equally skilled and hard working people, luck is the big differentiator. I've always been grateful for my luck. In the mean time, it scares me, because I tend to believe that my good luck will be balanced by bad luck at some point.


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## AbleEng (May 9, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Wow, thanks for sharing. That's why I keep believing that luck has a lot to do in our lives. I know that many wealthy people believe it's because of their hard work and I agree that there's lazy people out there and people who can't grasp opportunities, but for two equally skilled and hard working people, luck is the big differentiator. I've always been grateful for my luck. In the mean time, it scares me, because I tend to believe that my good luck will be balanced by bad luck at some point.


For as long as I can remember someone always coerced me into paths I didn't want - to remove my ability to decide my future. I think that luck is the ability to make the best decisions for yourself and your family, and then have the backup to change if things don't go right. And it would have been really nice to have someone to work with me.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

louarnold said:


> For me, life just didn't work out at all.


I'm sorry to hear about this. You encountered some very unfortunate, unlucky things. The economy and the industry is beyond your control. Sadly we are all 'along for the ride' but the timing was terrible for you.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

How about this. You have happened on a gold mine of rich people. Some of them made the money themselves and are willing to talk about it. Let's face it, everyone likes talking about themselves and their accomplishments. If you ask a few of them you could learn a few lessons of great value to you, some that would take you years to figure out others you might never figure out.
I know I had to revise my whole way of thinking before I made any serious money. What I learned from family, friends, teachers, the news media, etc was not only useless, it often held me back. Now at 70 I am beginning to catch on but it is too late for money to be much use to me. If I knew at 20 or 30 what I know now my life might have been different and better. You still stand a chance. Be willing to learn and change if you are not happy with your life as it is.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

As for the ingredients of success. A psychologist who has made a study of the subject says the two best indicators of future success are intelligence and conscientiousness. I think he is right but I would put conscientiousness first. In other words if you have average intelligence you can still achieve a lot by doing the right thing and sticking with it.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

However - many rich people are also dumb as dirt and not capable of doing much.

Some of them inherit family wealth, and then go on to pretend they were a great success. Those are guys like Doug Ford: dumb, useless, good for nothing. He dropped out of college and dad gave him a job and set him up for success.

Others may have some business success through sheer dumb luck -- being in the right time at the right place, being in the right point in their career during a certain economic phase, or catching a lucky break through someone else. Some of them make stupid decisions in their careers or businesses which happen (through random luck) to work out well, even though they were *terrible* decisions.

A person has to be careful when getting advice from, or listening to, what a rich person has to say.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

R. Austin said:


> ... Even myself, at age 27, earning $45k salary+bonus with a paid off 2018 Mazda and $30k invested, I feel like a peasant whenever I come on here ...


While it's human nature to make the comparisons, the other part is people don't like to talk about their failures and mainly about their successes (i.e. the FB bit).

Where one knows this plus considers that those interested in planning/investing are likely most of those posting as well as a small number - IMO one is better to focus on what one can learn/apply instead of making what is likely a useless conclusion on how one is or is not doing.

The OP looks at the diaries then thinks he is behind. Others compare to the median then think he is ahead. I look at the OP's starting salary and if I allowed myself to compare without considering these factors - my $23K full time salary with zero rental properties (except a few times of renting a room out) with something like twenty years working to hit $100K salary could depress me. 


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> I hope it is true, but I hardly believe it is in my case. I sure believe that my financial situation will be better in my 40s because I'll have decreased my debts and bought all what I had to buy, renovated most of what I had to renovate, but I don't think my income will be significantly higher ...


That's where I believe the advisor and people who are talking this way are not being precise. From what I have observed, people at that age have usually stopped having big expenses (ex. moving into a larger house with a one bedroom apartment's worth of furniture etc. leads to a fair bit of expenses!). If kids have started working and/or moved out, that's another place that cash becomes available to invest.

AFAICT, it's not so much about salary increasing (though it can be, in my case) but the combination of people starting to pay attention/invest with more funds to do so.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> ... That's why I keep believing that luck has a lot to do in our lives. I know that many wealthy people believe it's because of their hard work and I agree that there's lazy people out there and people who can't grasp opportunities, but for two equally skilled and hard working people, luck is the big differentiator ...


Sure ... at the same time though, people can underestimate what they can change and what their attitude will dictate.

For example, talking to people meant becoming aware of what was a hot skill. Volunteering to help out in that area meant being able to put that on my resume. Having the courage to apply as well as being willing to be a traveling consultant netted a 60% salary increase before factoring in bonus money. Those with the similar skills that were not willing to travel had much lower pay had only slightly higher pay.

Or there's the trainer who let the long list of qualifications deter them from applying for the job they liked. Their trainee applied for and got the job because none of the applicants has anything close to the full list.

And there's those that insisted on making their resume focus on the tech they had worked on. Those with the same tech that focused the resume on what their skills were, listing the tech as examples of using it were hired while the others were seen as stuck in those technologies.


Cheers


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Regarding financial forums and wealth.

There is selection bias, and of course some causation.

1. Most on this forum have computer and good internet access. Which cuts out the lowest ends.
2. People who think about finances and planning are likely to do better financially.
If you're on a financial forum, you're at least thinking about finances
3. You're likley not going to spend as much time thinking about money if you think you don't have any.
4. A bit of information and small planning changes can improve your situation.


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

Your are correct. This forum will attract people interested in finance just as an auto forum will attract gear heads, so naturally there will be more wealthy people here. Also many of us are boomers who started with nothing like I did, but have a large net worth after 50 years of working and investing. You are doing the right things MrBlackhill and you should be justifiably proud of your accomplishments.

My only advice is to try not to compare yourself to others.
Always remember: "Comparison is the thief of joy".


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

^I started out with nothing and still have most of it left!


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

I worked in a restaurant while I was in college and met many servers (late fifties) who had everything in early life but lost everything due to luck or bad decisions. I made my decision at that time that I would secure my financial freedom at first and then spend money on frivolous things. My first profession job paid me $36K and my expenses were $16K. Now our combined income is $140K-$150K and our expenses are $24K yearly. We are very frugal and we want our financial freedom ASAP. 

I am glad that Moneysense/Financial Post used to publish articles about the highest TFSA value in 2012/2013. I compared the highest TFSA value (average $40K) against mine ($26K) and started to learn about investing and continue learning since then.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

james4beach said:


> However - many rich people are also dumb as dirt and not capable of doing much.
> 
> Some of them inherit family wealth, and then go on to pretend they were a great success. Those are guys like Doug Ford: dumb, useless, good for nothing. He dropped out of college and dad gave him a job and set him up for success.
> 
> ...


My favorite dumb rich guy story-

About the fellow who went to his 10th high school reunion and one of his old classmates was obviously doing well. New Mercedes, Armani suit, Rolex, the whole outfit. This was surprising as back in school this guy was dumb as a shoe and the last person anyone expected to get rich.
So he asked what he was doing lately and the guy said "Haven't you seen my infomercials on TV? I buy these kitchen gadgets from China for $4.95 and sell them for $49.95 and I'll tell you, that 10% profit sure adds up".

You don't have to be smart, you just have to do the right thing and stick with it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

My best career decisions were those that many of my peers advised against or initially thought unwise. I believe that being able to spot a potential opportunity and having the follow through to move forward with some personal risk can yield dividends in many forms beside financial.

I changed careers completely, changed employers and I changed positions within megacorp that were initially out of my comfort zone. We re-located several times before and after we had a family. Each time it was a bit of a gamble because megacorp was downsizing for my last 20 years or so. In one instance I knew that my position would eventually be eliminated so I proactively sought out other opportunities in the same firm that ultimately proved to be very lucrative.

My very good fortune was that I had a spouse who supported me completely in these endeavours, including my frequent business travel. She ran the show at home and made it all work like clockwork. As a non financial person she also turned out to be a first rate sounding board on investment decisions. Solid, intuitive advice that invariably turned out to be spot on.


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## AbleEng (May 9, 2021)

james4beach said:


> I'm sorry to hear about this. You encountered some very unfortunate, unlucky things. The economy and the industry is beyond your control. Sadly we are all 'along for the ride' but the timing was terrible for you.


Thank you for your kind words. But there is always tomorrow and so I keep at least one finder crossed for me alone.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

louarnold said:


> Thank you for your kind words. But there is always tomorrow and so I keep at least one finder crossed for me alone.


Is it maybe possible to find a social group or club of people in your area? It might be worth checking "meet up" groups to see if there is some group you have common interests with.

I have met a couple of very interesting friends through groups like this, which started as total strangers. And once you meet people who you have some rapport with, this can be a valuable support network which can lend ideas and thoughts.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

pwm said:


> You are doing the right things MrBlackhill and you should be justifiably proud of your accomplishments.


I think so too. I don't see anything wrong with MrBlackhill's situation. It takes many years of working & investing to really build up net worth. As you mentioned pwm, it usually happens late in the career.

My dad worked like a lunatic his whole life. He wasn't particularly well off in his 40s and he was still very stressed by the career and money. All of this is normal.



pwm said:


> My only advice is to try not to compare yourself to others.
> Always remember: "Comparison is the thief of joy".


I agree, this is very important. Social media makes many people unhappy with comparison to their friends and neighbours.

I'm not done my own journey by any means, I'm maybe only a bit older than @MrBlackhill but I really focus on *my own* net worth, and track it over time. I think I mentioned in another thread that I like to set financial milestones. They are MY milestones, and have nothing to do with other people.

In that other thread I mentioned that my RRSP was approaching 250k and I was really excited. And then my RRSP hit that point. It made me very happy! I went and bought a pizza.

The number is arbitrary. If it was the 100k milestone, I would have been just as happy. 100k is a really NICE round number.

Focusing on my own financial situation and net worth makes me happy. I just need to see my NW rising over time, and it generally does.

Reading about how rich other people are, or yearning to have a house or car like them, doesn't do me any good. I also acknowledge that I'm in my 30s and many people in their 30s just don't have a ton of wealth. It's normal.



R. Austin said:


> Just gotta keep pushing forward and keep working hard. Track your spending, track your net worth, and don’t forget to enjoy what you have along the way.


Absolutely! That's the way to do this. Just keep pushing forward. Track your net worth and use it to motivate yourself and keep yourself on track.

If net worth is rising (adjusted for inflation), you're doing great,


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Social media makes many people unhappy with comparison to their friends and neighbours.


No, it isn't social media making people unhappy.
It's people comparing themselves that makes then unhappy.

envy and jealousy are toxic, we've known this for a long time, it's literally biblical, though the ideas are in many other religious texts, and there are likely references predating that.

The point behind not being envious and jealous is because it is bad for YOU.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> No, it isn't social media making people unhappy.
> It's people comparing themselves that makes then unhappy.


Social media's main goal is to increase that sentiment.

Social media :

Does profiling and then pushes you content that you like to keep you on screen as long as possible
Then shows you content and ads adapted to your personality to create a need and to make you dream of what you don't have

Being envious can be good or bad. It's the same like good stress and bad stress. Being a little envious pushes you to do more to reach your goals for a better life. Never being satisfied is not healthy though. Greed is unhealthy.

Comparing to others can be healthy, when that people inspire you.

It always depends of your attitude. You can look at someone and be inspired and tell yourself "I will be like him/her someday", or you can look at someone and be jealous and tell yourself "I'm lazy and I wish I was like him/her".

Just don't be inspired by things out of reach though. Take a little step at a time. That's what they don't tell you in the inspirational messages "you can be anything".


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Being envious can be good or bad. It's the same like good stress and bad stress. Being a little envious pushes you to do more to reach your goals for a better life. Never being satisfied is not healthy though. Greed is unhealthy.


I disagree.








Definition of ENVY


painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage; malice; an object of envious notice or feeling… See the full definition




www.merriam-webster.com




"painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage"
Resentfulness is negative, and unhealthy.



> It always depends of your attitude. You can look at someone and be inspired and tell yourself "I will be like him/her someday",


yes good


> or you can look at someone and be jealous and tell yourself "I'm lazy and I wish I was like him/her".


bad, that's envy. 



> Just don't be inspired by things out of reach though. Take a little step at a time. That's what they don't tell you in the inspirational messages "you can be anything".


Some of my favourite quotes/inspriational messages.
You can be anything, just not everything. You can have anything, just not everything.
At what cost?
trade offs are central to my philosophy.
*Thomas Sowell*: “There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs.”

If you want something, there will ALWAYS be a trade off to get it.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Just wanted to chime in as one of those with a diary and a near $2 million dollar increase in net worth in 9 years. I'm 42 and have been on these boards for about 10 years. Still remember the day I signed up... It feels like yesterday. 😐









Married, Kids, Single income... Tryin' hard!


What a gem this place is! I spent the entire night last night reading... couldn't put it down! I'm 33. Married and have two little girls, 5 and 3. My wife is a stay-at-home mom (has been for the past 5 years) and will be going back to work in 2 years and so income will increase. A little bit...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com





A few points.


I've never made a ton of money. Prior to 2018, my full-time salary was $80k/year. In fact, it has been at $80k/year for almost a decade. Nothing to scoff at, but certainly not in the upper end on this forum. That said, I also don't put in 70-80 hour work weeks...
I've always maxed out RRSP's, TFSA's and made saving a priority.
My side-hustle of 15 years was a positive contributor, but, that's pretty much dried up now.
I've never sold a business.
My wife earns $40k/year in her full-time job and was a stay-at-home mom for 9 years.
Started with two young children, now teenagers. Braces, limited health benefits, etc, those things all add up.

It has not been a rosy ride.

As I got closer to reaching my goals, I started to break down, I'm still broken, but at least I can move. And that's sitting on over $1mil in investments.

Focus on the journey, not the destination is all I can say and don't compare to others. It's the source of much discontent. Knowing this to be true, if you can figure out how, please share.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Some of my favourite quotes/inspriational messages.
> You can be anything, just not everything. You can have anything, just not everything.
> At what cost?
> trade offs are central to my philosophy.
> ...


I like the quote.



MrMatt said:


> I disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


English is not my mother tongue, but I guess it depends on the dictionary.

*Envy : *_to wish that you had a quality or possession that another person has_ (envy)
*Jealousy :* _a feeling of unhappiness and anger because someone has something or someone that you want_ (jealousy)

But if I dig deeper for the difference between envy and jealousy, there's one precision that I liked. Envy is about the feeling of unfairness towards a more fortunate person, while jealousy involves an emotional rivalry.



> _Envy_ is when you want what someone else has, but _jealousy _is when you're worried someone's trying to take what you have. If you want your neighbor's new convertible, you feel _envy_. If she takes your husband for a ride, you feel _jealousy_.


Personally, I never feel jealousy, but I do feel envy. When I see someone with $1M, I envy him, and then I ask myself what can I do to have $1M myself, and then I do what it takes, so that's why I believe the emotion of envy can be transformed into something productive and healthy.

For instance, we could also say that the definition of *stress* means that it's a bad emotion, but we've all heard of _good stress_ and _bad stress_. Good stress pushes you to be more productive, while bad stress is a distress that harm your productivity.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Envy is about the feeling of unfairness towards a more fortunate person,


That is the toxic part which leads to bad things.

Yes it does matter what definition people use. Which drives some people crazy. 
I remember debates with one coworker, we'd spend hours debating definitions, and it infuriated another coworker, because we never discussed "the issue".
Of course you can't get to the issue without agreeing on the definition.

Anyway I think when it goes negative, you have a problem. 
Honestly comparison isn't really helpful, the only person you should compare yourself to is the person you were yesterday.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Three things were very important to me job wise. First was having a job that I liked. Second was having a challenge. Third was having a manager and a work situation where I could learn new skills, etc.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Anyway I think when it goes negative, you have a problem.
> Honestly comparison isn't really helpful, the only person you should compare yourself to is the person you were yesterday.


I totally agree that the most important is to compare yourself to to person you were yesterday. My main goal in life is only one thing : to always be a better person.

Maybe why I see that there's place for something healthy when comparing to others is that I believe it can be an eye-opened. I mean, when you meet someone, you inherently assess a first impression about that person, which is a comparison to your frame of reference.

If I had never met people, all I would've known is what my parent's were doing. Working on a farm 85h/week, 7 days/week, 365 days/year while living on a $30k household budget. But then you meet people and you notice that they work only 40h/week and make $60k. So you ask yourself if you are happy with your 85h job. Maybe yes, maybe it's your passion, your calling. But maybe not, so you ask yourself what did that person do to be in a situation where she has to work only 40h/week to make $60k. And you find out that it's something you'd also like to do. And you find out it's within your reach. So you do it. So what started with the first impression of meeting someone living a different context, became an inspiration. And there was a healthy sentiment of envy at some point during the transition from the first impression, to getting to know that person, to being inspired.

We can agree to disagree. I understand your point and in some sense I agree with it. But to me, every emotion is on a spectrum and some part of that spectrum is healthy, depending on how strong the emotion is and your attitude towards that emotion.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

ian said:


> Three things were very important to me job wise. First was having a job that I liked. Second was having a challenge. Third was having a manager and a work situation where I could learn new skills, etc.


Same, but never found it, haha.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks for sharing @kork . Wow that's really something that you've been here for 10 years, and yet with only a few hundred posts 

Really amazing how well you've been doing at ~ 80k salary and goes to show that super high salaries aren't needed to accumulate wealth.

If you're willing to post more often, I think many of us could learn more from you.



kork said:


> As I got closer to reaching my goals, I started to break down, I'm still broken, but at least I can move. And that's sitting on over $1mil in investments.
> 
> Focus on the journey, not the destination is all I can say and don't compare to others. It's the source of much discontent. Knowing this to be true, if you can figure out how, please share.


I'm curious what this means, if you're willing to share? Any lessons you can share with us? Sorry if it's something painful, I just wasn't sure if you are referring to a financial break down of some kind or something else.

I'm near your age so am just wondering if you have any advice to share


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

james4beach said:


> Thanks for sharing @kork . Wow that's really something that you've been here for 10 years, and yet with only a few hundred posts
> 
> Really amazing how well you've been doing at ~ 80k salary and goes to show that super high salaries aren't needed to accumulate wealth.
> 
> If you're willing to post more often, I think many of us could learn more from you.


I don't post often, but I listen a lot. Truthfully, I don't feel I can add much to a financial forum because my investments are boring. Couch Potato mainly. But I can shine in the "regret" department and introspective there!



james4beach said:


> I'm curious what this means, if you're willing to share? Any lessons you can share with us? Sorry if it's something painful, I just wasn't sure if you are referring to a financial break down of some kind or something else.
> 
> I'm near your age so am just wondering if you have any advice to share


More than happy to share as my experience could help someone who's younger (I hate saying that because I feel like I'm 18). I 100% feel like the kid in this forum. Looking at all the wise things the grown-ups are saying, lol.

Essentially, I spent my life playing by the rules. Studied hard in school, didn't party very much (ever?). I was always the DD at get togethers in high school and never partied in College. Never drank or developed any liquid courage. In other words, didn't do anything stupid. Got a decent job right out of school earning $45k/year, worked hard, once again, didn't party or go on vacations. Instead, paid down student loans. Instead of going out to clubs or drinking for $5/shot, we had friends over every Friday or Saturday for drinks (I drank Coke or Pepsi) and Mario Party. Four of us. Nice and easy and fun. We had good times, yes, but never got into any kind of mischief that led to stories to tell.

And it continues like this for the next 15-20 years. Work hard, don't buy a boat, don't buy a motorcycle, don't go on vacations... save, save, save! The gold is at the end of the rainbow, I was convinced! I'd work hard and save and then one day, when I finally made it to the rainbow, I'd come out of my shell having been Mr. Responsible and making sure my family and I were financially secure to then finally party and have fun!

And I followed that map, stayed the course.

Well, low and behold, if I didn't find out that pot of gold is a giant bucket of golden pi$$.

At 40 years old, we bought our "forever home" where the property tax was low and it was affordable. In fact, we moved in on my 40th birthday. Rather than having a 40th birthday bash, we were moving. No paying a moving company, that's $3500 that I can fold right back in my pocket!

And on my 40th birthday, I hit all of my lifetime goals. I was 165lbs (down from 254lbs max a year earlier) and had a resting heart rate of mid 40's. Refined athlete level. I had a net worth of more than $1million. My health was top notch and financially, hit that milestone... And was now in my forever home that took all the stuff I didn't like about our previous home and removed them.

Well f*ck me did life have a 600lb dark shadowed gorilla waiting for me around the corner. 

As I sit here, at the finish line, ahead of all of my peers, there was a very sad realization that I'd missed out on living the previous 20 years. My 20's and 30's which could have been filled with exploration and travel with friends were no longer possible. I didn't backpack through Europe, didn't have flings or wake up next to strangers after a night of binge drinking. No, I married my highschool girlfriend and had followed the map that grown-ups made back in the 90's to lead to success. Get good grades, go to school, work hard. Parties get in the way of academics. Don't do drugs, don't drink. Be responsible... And because I was already living with my girlfriend at the time, I saw no need to party. To me, partying was a precursor to trying to meet someone to have a relationship with. Not me, I'd already checked that off my list! 

But, what I didn't realize is that those experiences lead to memories and stories to tell.

Now, at 42, I sit here wanting to play. I want to do stupid things and make those memories that so many I know talk about. I'm nostalgic of my youth and the fun I used to have. I thought to myself last night, when is the last time I felt "excitement." and the answer, sadly, is when I bought the home I live in now. And so I long for the past, my mind takes me to a place where I ache to be again.

My peer group has grown-up out of stupid. They're also scattered around the world. They did age-appropriate things and have grown, quite responsibly into functioning adults with families. And so, I feel very much out of place and out of sorts. It's lonely, I feel like I'm still the kid at the table, but surrounded by grown-ups. Imposter syndrome to the max.

But I'm working through it. 60+ therapy sessions, psychiatric diagnosis (including my generalized anxiety disorder being refactored as more of a type 2 bipolar), different medications, mindfulness workshops and exploring childhood trauma with inner critic workshops. I feel like I'm coming out the other side, but as a brand new person. I've lost my passion, my curiosity and my interest in things. But I wake up every day hoping for a spark.

To the OP, I feel that much of this could have been eliminated if I'd just learned to have a bit of fun rather than taking life so seriously. Adults don't know $hit. They're just winging it but with their own baggage. In fact, adults are possibly less qualified to give lessons on life than kids, and yet, it's the adults that impose the rules for success!

Sorry, this got long. This is my experience. YMMV.

BTW - After having owning value-centric responsible cars for the past 15 years, I now drive a bright blue, M Class BMW that can go from 0-60 in around 4 seconds. I have zero regret with that purchase. I bought it cash.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Sounds like you are in a perfect position to start living the way you want.
During my travelling years I met people of all ages. Even saw couple of 60 years olds hitchhiking in southern Europe!
With your conservative portfolio I imagine you have a certain income through dividends taxed at low level.
40,000 per year will go extremely long way pretty much anywhere in the world other than 6-7 highest cost of living countries.
Why not take couple of years off and do what you want to try and find a passion, reignite love for life?


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> Sounds like you are in a perfect position to start living the way you want.
> During my travelling years I met people of all ages. Even saw couple of 60 years olds hitchhiking in southern Europe!
> With your conservative portfolio I imagine you have a certain income through dividends taxed at low level.
> 40,000 per year will go extremely long way pretty much anywhere in the world other than 6-7 highest cost of living countries.
> Why not take couple of years off and do what you want to try and find a passion, reignite love for life?


You're 100% correct. It appears that way. Covid has been making it a pain to travel or do anything social. 

Also, taking a couple years off terrifies me now (even though it was the goal) because it gives me more to to be in my own head. My full-time employment is very autonomous. I work in high-tech so can work anywhere on my own schedule. I haven't been to the office in over a year.

But the harder part is this. I don't know how. It's less about the travelling, and more about the experiences while travelling. I don't know how to make irresponsible decisions that lead to stories. I haven't had the practice. I know it sounds silly, but it's the truth. 

If presented with "Should I jump into the shark infested waters or not" my brain would say... No... But the person who jumps in would be able to tell the story of when they jumped into the shark infested waters! Or they'd be dead... But you get my point.

And Mr. Responsible in me says "Make sure you do what's best for your daughters. Don't disrupt their already challenged covid-19 lives for your own selfish gains..."


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

kork said:


> But, what I didn't realize is that those experiences lead to memories and stories to tell.


And this is where a balance between saving and playing comes into the picture. I didn't give up everything when younger but I did follow a budget. Some "back end load" their lives too much having no fun for a decade (or more) just to save up the pennies. I put a priority on some activities as must haves and worth spending money on.



kork said:


> Now, at 42, I sit here wanting to play. I want to do stupid things and make those memories that so many I know talk about. I'm nostalgic of my youth and the fun I used to have. I thought to myself last night, when is the last time I felt "excitement." and the answer, sadly, is when I bought the home I live in now. And so I long for the past, my mind takes me to a place where I ache to be again.


Well life hardly ends at 42 so start making those memories now! I didn't start serious off road motorcycle riding until I was over 50 and started racing a few years after that .... total blast! I often ride with people half my age so no shortage of stupid stuff we _can_ get into. 



kork said:


> BTW - After having owning value-centric responsible cars for the past 15 years, I now drive a bright blue, M Class BMW that can go from 0-60 in around 4 seconds. I have zero regret with that purchase. I bought it cash.


Nice! And likely a good start to enjoying yourself.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

cainvest said:


> And this is where a balance between saving and playing comes into the picture.


Exactly. That's the toughest part to me.

We remember our past, we have memories and stories to be shared.
We live our present.
But we don't know our future.

We have some control on our financial future by saving money in the present.
But we have absolutely no control on what kind of event can happen in the future (health issues, mental health, disease, injuries, lost of a family member, etc.).

Therefore, it's very important to balance our well-being in the present while planning for our future, but that's the hardest part in life (to me).

I've known a girl who was living to the fullest - travelling all around the world, living pay check to pay check, finding jobs while the moved from country to until she was 35. We thought "yeah, now she's 35 and has no savings". But during those 15 years of living abroad, she had to be very resourceful to be able to find new jobs and a place to live in an ever-changing environment and culture from country to country. And when she came back to her home country, she quickly found a very well-paid job. And she can now definitely accumulate a decent amount of money from her 35 to her 65 and then retire comfortably.

There's no rules to how we should live our life. To each our own way. Honestly, I'm the kind of guy who's passionate about travelling. And I believe that it was actually a wise decision that she travelled during her young years from her 20 to her 35 and then retire at 65. I believe it's an even better decision than my situation where I've barely travelled during my young years, and now I would like to retire at 50. But travelling when you're 50 is certainly not the same experience compared to when you were 20...


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## AbleEng (May 9, 2021)

james4beach said:


> Is it maybe possible to find a social group or club of people in your area? It might be worth checking "meet up" groups to see if there is some group you have common interests with.
> 
> I have met a couple of very interesting friends through groups like this, which started as total strangers. And once you meet people who you have some rapport with, this can be a valuable support network which can lend ideas and thoughts.


I have been a member of Meet-Up for several years. It has been literally terrifying for me and my family. But I don't want to discuss this any more. Have a great day, James.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> We have some control on our financial future by saving money in the present.
> But we have absolutely no control on what kind of event can happen in the future (health issues, mental health, disease, injuries, lost of a family member, etc.).


See, and that's what caught me. My youth had some traumatic events and those events led me to not drinking and always being in control. So it was kindof easy/comfortable to be socially careful in highschool/college and then extended into my 20's and 30's. But there's a new chapter being written right now. Kork is coming out of his shell!

And my career of choice is similar to that of an athlete. 30 years old and you're the "old guy" in the room, let alone being 40+. So I always treated my job, which I loved, as "it could be gone at any time."

And as a result, I saved as much as I could. I did still go to concerts, etc. but dropping a couple thousand $$$ on a vacation is something I couldn't consider.



MrBlackhill said:


> There's no rules to how we should live our life. To each our own way. Honestly, I'm the kind of guy who's passionate about travelling. And I believe that it was actually a wise decision that she travelled during her young years from her 20 to her 35 and then retire at 65. I believe it's an even better decision than my situation where I've barely travelled during my young years, and now I would like to retire at 50. But travelling when you're 50 is certainly not the same experience compared to when you were 20...


Here's my change of opinion. I went from seeking FIRE and early retirement to switching camps completely. I never want to retire, at least, not now. I've had a taste of it and no thank-you! To each their own. Perhaps poor health or hatred of my job would change my mind, but I have neither of those. I always want to be engaged and contributing something.

I feel that I'm just starting to ramp up.

But to your point, who would have known she would land a good job at 35+ after fluttering around for 15 years. I would have guessed the opposite. I have a friend who did the same, but ended up the opposite. Taught white water rafting around the planet. Every country! Travelled the world and has now settled to get married and struggling to find a career.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

If you consider wealthy to own one or several overseas shell companies for the purpose of avoiding taxes, that's not me. My name is not listed in the Panama or Paradise Papers. I won't guess how many members of CMF might be.

If you consider my pre-retirement income above the national average (pre-pandemic 2019) of $52,600, then I am.

At one time, while having lunch with my coworkers, I realized we were all part of the top 80 or 90% percentile.

So, even though I don't have access to KPMG's legal tax evasion schemes, my savings and investments and growth during retirement are forecasted to last to my death and beyond. Considering how many people in my age group (50 to 60) don't have any retirement savings, I could be considered relatively wealthy.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

kork said:


> You're 100% correct. It appears that way. Covid has been making it a pain to travel or do anything social.
> 
> Also, taking a couple years off terrifies me now (even though it was the goal) because it gives me more to to be in my own head. My full-time employment is very autonomous. I work in high-tech so can work anywhere on my own schedule. I haven't been to the office in over a year.
> 
> ...


From experience I can say that once you hit the road there is little time to be in your own head. Everything is so interesting and you meet some cool people. You are spending time picking their brain, not yours 
But of course everyone has different approach. I simply see a lot of people not happy in a situation they are in, yet not doing anything to change it.
It seems to me that you are uniquely positioned to actually do change your situation without too high of a risk of it backfiring as you have financial stability and the job that is in demand and not tied to any specific location.
You dealt yourself a really good hand. Congratulations! Now it is up to you to use it.

And talk with your daughters. I am sure they would be happier with a happy father than lack of disruptions.
Just a personal opinion


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> From experience I can say that once you hit the road there is little time to be in your own head. Everything is so interesting and you meet some cool people. You are spending time picking their brain, not yours
> But of course everyone has different approach. I simply see a lot of people not happy in a situation they are in, yet not doing anything to change it.
> It seems to me that you are uniquely positioned to actually do change your situation without too high of a risk of it backfiring as you have financial stability and the job that is in demand and not tied to any specific location.
> You dealt yourself a really good hand. Congratulations! Now it is up to you to use it.
> ...


I do have my motorcycle license. In fact, spent some time in Florida for Bike week in Daytona. Harley's hanging in trees and the like. May be time to reconsider putting my license to good use...

And you're right about my daughters. It's very difficult because my childhood was a $hitshow and I'm trying as hard as I can to keep it stable for them. In fact, my biggest accomplishment is my youngest daughter asking me 3 months ago "Dad, how do you always look at the bright side of everything and remain so positive?"

If they only knew... I spend 200% of my energy end effort trying to keep my $hit out of their world.

Best. Actor. Ever. Lol.



damian13ster said:


> Just a personal opinion


A very good opinion. Thank-you.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm here to tell you the best years of your life will be in your 60's and retired.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

KaeJS said:


> But who can live on 40k?


Not many ... but my brother and sister in law are living on $30K. 

My friend from university has taken care of his mom to keep her in her house so that last decade his annual income has been $5K. Now that his mom is in a LTC and the house is sold, he figures $22K is what he needs.

My neighbour says his sister-in-law plus husband in Manitoba are living on $35K.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Regarding financial forums and wealth.
> 
> There is selection bias, and of course some causation.
> 
> ...


I'd add that:
5. Those reading/posting on financial forums have a positive attitude to planning/investment.

One of the guys who made it into the union at Coke commented that he regretted waiting until getting into the union to take an interest in investing. When working as a mover, he figured he didn't have any funds to spare to invest so what he now saw he could have invested went into parties and beer.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> ... Personally, I never feel jealousy, but I do feel envy. When I see someone with $1M, I envy him, and then I ask myself what can I do to have $1M myself, and then I do what it takes, so that's why I believe the emotion of envy can be transformed into something productive and healthy ...


Sure ... though based on comparisons, you seemed to need convincing that those posting were unusual and that you are doing ok.

Personally, based on those who refuse to discuss finances - just being here and asking questions/posting puts you ahead of many, many, many people.


Cheers


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

kork said:


> I don't post often, but I listen a lot. Truthfully, I don't feel I can add much to a financial forum because my investments are boring. Couch Potato mainly. But I can shine in the "regret" department and introspective there!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@kork,

This is probably one of the best, and one of my more favourite posts on this forum. I have also been here 10 years. =).

Thank you so much for posting everything you have and for not holding back. Your writing seemed genuine as if you didn't stop to think what you were typing - I love that.

Lastly,
Very nice car choice. (And I love that colour).

I hope you are driving it like it is meant to be driven and not worried about being too much of an adult with it. Don't be afraid to kick out the back end a bit and mash that pedal into the floor like it owes you money.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> I'm here to tell you the best years of your life will be in your 60's and retired.


I'm not so sure about that ... I've had some pretty good years in the past.

Don't get me wrong though, I hope you're right!


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

cainvest said:


> I'm not so sure about that ... I've had some pretty good years in the past.
> 
> Don't get me wrong though, I hope you're right!


Pretty much depends entirely on health. Would rather not take risks of amassing a small fortune to then not be able to enjoy it. There is a fine line between being responsible, and being too careful and missing out on experiences


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

My best decade will be every decade. Enjoy the present day.


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## Karlhungus (Oct 4, 2013)

People who make low income and have low networth dont post because they dont actively try to become wealthy. Its a circle of cause and effect. Its like asking why there are no fat people on a body building forum.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

^ Good point.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

True, but the truly inspiring money diaries would be the ones that start from barely nothing to wealthy.

Imagine that fat guy going to the gym only to end up seeing fitness men at the gym. There's nobody that he can related to. But if goes to the gym, see other fat guys and some of them actually just lost 100 lb over the last 5 years and on their way to lose another 100 lb over the next 5 years, that will be much more inspiring to him.

It was just an observation about the lack of money diaries of people who started in a job they are passionate about at $35k/year and now on their way to $1M net worth.

How can all the people earning less than $50k/year rely to the many money diaries of people in their 20s earning $70k+, clear of debts, already $50k+ invested and getting $5k to $10k raises every year?

Where's the janitor multi-millionaire on this forum?


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

While they are inspiring, I've seen more of the janitor/teacher/widow as multi-millionaire _after_ the person had passed away. The usual comment by neighbours is that "I had no idea".

IAC ... here are some money diaries that should give you hope.

$70K income plus $10K OT in 2013 for a total of $108K that by today is a total of $470K.








29yo Diary; Hoping I'm on the right track


Main Income: - New job since May, 75k Euro + 10k Euro stock options Net Worth: TOTAL: ~$320k Now post-MBA, I successfully pivoted my career into something else I really like, living in a new place, and I feel lucky that I got a job during COVID. My net worth is down, both because of no income...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com





Age 26 in 2013 with after tax income of $78K and $80K in both non-registered and registered accounts.
June 2021 net worth of $1.2 million.








Being Aggressive - $2M saved by 37


Being Aggressive at 26: My 10 Year Goal Hi everyone, First time post here. I’ve always been somewhat frugal and savings-minded, but after reading Rich Dad Poor Dad recently I’ve become particularly motivated to shovel more of my income into assets. I feel like this forum is a great way to...




www.canadianmoneyforum.com






There are some others with good gains in net worth but the income and/or are missing.


Cheers


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## scorpion_ca (Nov 3, 2014)

MrBlackhill said:


> True, but the truly inspiring money diaries would be the ones that start from barely nothing to wealthy.


I came to Canada 14 years ago with only $1,000 cash and $14,000 debt in back home. We reached the million dollar net worth this year. I even built a house for my parents in back home and paid off their loan too. The house is worth around $200K but I don't include it in my assets.

Check out my money diary Am I on track to reach my goal?. I reduced our RRSP amount by 15%. Therefore, the latest net worth shows $972K. However, it will reach to 1 million by the end of this year. Negative 14K to 1 million in 14 years. Is my journey inspiring?


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

You guys should all be proud of your journeys, you did very well and I certainly don't want to remove anything from it.

My point was more focused on the income. All the diaries are about people with high income. We're all high income earners. Myself included. No one started at $40k gross income at 25, then reached $60k gross income at 35, then reached $90k gross income at 45, all that while having 2 kids and saving $1M before reaching 55. Yet even that income is above the median income of Canadians.

FinancialPanther's journey is certainly the most similar to me, as he was making $70k gross income as an engineer, but then with $10k overtime and $5k bonus that's $85k gross at 29. I was at $85k gross last year at 32, so it's pretty similar.

Janus at 26 with $78k after-tax, that's huge. I'm 33 and I don't know if I'll ever reach $78k after-tax before my 40s.

scorpion_ca moving to another country with only $1k in cash and $14k in debt is definitely inspiring. Many wouldn't have that courage to make the move. But in your first post of your diary, I understand that you where making $120k at 31, so I can't relate to this for the financial journey to $1M+.

And I'm not saying this to compare myself, but just to point out that there's no one here with median income or below, and making a money diary towards $1M. I've just made the comparison with myself just to show that even I, a high income earner above the median income, am below the income of most money diaries.

I believe I can relate to Fisherman30.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

I am 60k gross at 29.
I did make more than that for 4 years, but also was unemployed for 16 months, so not sure if I qualify  
Of course not yet at 1mln in net worth, but do have hopes to get there by 45


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> My point was more focused on the income. All the diaries are about people with high income. We're all high income earners. Myself included. No one started at $40k gross income at 25, then reached $60k gross income at 35, then reached $90k gross income at 45, all that while having 2 kids and saving $1M before reaching 55. Yet even that income is above the median income of Canadians.


I was actually close to the above number give or take a few years. I can't recall specifics but $45k at 24 and then $60k at 27 (moves cities, wife stopped working for the next 10 years as stay at home mom). Then $80k at 30 and hovered there for 10 years with a stay-at-home wife and two children. Then hit $100k+ at 39. That includes 2 kids and hitting $2mil by 42.

Caveat, I did have a side hustle and it was helpful, but not paramount. Without it, I'd still be above $1mil today.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

kork said:


> I was actually close to the above number give or take a few years. I can't recall specifics but $45k at 24 and then $60k at 27 (moves cities, wife stopped working for the next 10 years as stay at home mom). Then $80k at 30 and hovered there for 10 years with a stay-at-home wife and two children. Then hit $100k+ at 39. That includes 2 kids and hitting $2mil by 42.
> 
> Caveat, I did have a side hustle and it was helpful, but not paramount. Without it, I'd still be above $1mil today.


Wait - wow. You're saying you've hit $2M by 42 while on a gross income of $80k during all of your 30s, while having 2 kids, while having your wife at home for 10 years? I'm impressed, my brain is exploding, trying to figure the math. You've managed to save over $10k a year at a rate of return of at least 15% on your investments?


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> Wait - wow. You're saying you've hit $2M by 42 while on a gross income of $80k during all of your 30s, while having 2 kids, while having your wife at home for 10 years? I'm impressed, my brain is exploding, trying to figure the math. You've managed to save over $10k a year at a rate of return of at least 15% on your investments?


Yep, and that also includes taking a year off to with a partial salary before Daughter #1 started JK in 2011. But that year I was closer to $55k because I was paid for 25 hours a week while sitting at the pool.

Here's the exact math. I have a spreadsheet with 2,275 rows/days of exact numbers of net worth and data entry I've kept for 14 years (and growing). This includes investment growth (couch potato), contributions, etc. No rental, no inheritance, no huge gifts, no weed stocks, no crypto, no big gains in real-estate (except this year I've recalculated with area growth conservatively). I've tracked net worth daily for the last 14 years. Ask me the date, I've got every single piece of info including exact contributions and their dates. I've lived on my own since I was 18. Finished College with nearly $35k in student loans to pay off! No saving while living with mom and dad.

2002 to 2005 - No money, student debt, saving $25 bi-weekly for RRSP. Bi-weekly paycheck was around $1247.00 on $45k salary. I got the bump to $60k sometime in there.

2005 - Bought and sold our first home in 6 months to relocate for new job, but no pay raise. We wanted out of wanted out of the big city. Got a small signing bonus though and balanced out the loss of the home sale. Cost of living went down. I was in debt with student loans. Was getting credit cards with low intro offers to pay off $2-3k chucks every 6 months during into offers. $35k in total. Net worth was under $0 this year with student loans.

2006 - Got married - paid for wedding ourselves mostly, on a shoestring budget. Maid of honour made dress and maid of honour's mom made cake. Centre pieces were made from Dollarama and Michaels 40% OFF COUPONS for the centre bowls one week at a time. No big payday or cash gifts from wedding... Likely balanced out with out of pocket expenses. AMAZING WEDDING THOUGH! Family and friends still refer to it as *"The Wedding."* Anyways, wife wasn't working due to relocation, I was earning $60k a year salary. We may have saved a bit during that time, can't recall fully. But here's the numbers.

*DATE / NET WORTH / SALARY / AGE / WIFE INCOME*

2007 - $89,855.05 - $60k (28) Wife at home Baby #1 born
2008 - $122,116.13 - $60k (29) Wife at home
2009 - $190,765.30 - $80k (30) Wife at home Baby #2 born
2010 - $241,434.32 - $80k (31) Wife at home
2011 - $279,356.32 - $55k (32) Wife at home
2012 - $361,536.29 - $80k (33) Wife at home
2013 - $459,323.36 - $80k (34) Wife at home
2014 - $575,216.35 - $80k (35) Wife at home
2015 - $700,700.66 - $80k (36) Wife earning $30k/year
2016 - $897,143.64 - $80k (37) Wife earning $30k/year
2017 - $1,074,489.06 - $80k (38) Wife earning $35k/year
2018 - $1,240,282.65 - $120k (39) Wife earning $35k/year
2019 - $1,474,553.24 - $120k (40) Wife earning $37k/year
2020 - $1,613,787.43 - $120k (41) Wife earning $39k/year
2021 - $2,051,390.20 - $120k (42) Wife earning $40k/year

We've also got over $105k saved up for my daughters in their RESP. $1800 of that comes from contributions from my dad, but the other $103,500 is our contributions. Any major bumps that make no sense were likely from side hustle and coming out of 2008/2009 downturn.

Ask any question, I'm more than happy to answer.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

kork said:


> *DATE / NET WORTH / SALARY / AGE / WIFE INCOME*
> 
> 2007 - $89,855.05 - $60k (28) Wife at home Baby #1 born
> 2008 - $122,116.13 - $60k (29) Wife at home
> ...


And you're telling me those are gross income numbers?

I still can't get my maths right. Even if I input a situation where you kept your cost of living to only $40k for the household and invested all of the remaining and had no taxes to pay, you'd have to average 13% ROI during all those years, but you said you invested in Couch Potato, so you'd need to be 100% US equities to get that kind of ROI from a broad index.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> And you're telling me those are gross income numbers?
> 
> I still can't get my maths right. Even if I input a situation where you kept your cost of living to only $40k for the household and invested all of the remaining and had no taxes to pay, you'd have to average 13% ROI during all those years, but you said you invested in Couch Potato, so you'd need to be 100% US equities to get that kind of ROI from a broad index.


Yep, gross. Keep in mind, I had a side hustle not included here (but fully taxed and legitimate), some years were better than others. Those helped towards contributions since it was "extra" income that didn't need to pay for cost of living and couldn't be counted on.

Here's the contributions by year (I'm missing a couple earlier years since the move to Florida was for mental health and I lost interest in tracking thoroughly).

2008 - $25,600.00
2009 - $20,000.00
2010 - Not tracked
2011 - Not tracked
2012 - Not tracked
2013 - Not tracked
2014 - $39,041.38
2015 - $75,796.84
2016 - $53,417.78
2017 - $110,878.92 (Big year! If I recall, I took out money from my mortgage since the interest was low and topped up my TFSA)
2018 - $60,000.00
2019 - $29,000.00
2020 - $25,000.00

Looking at the above, it all makes sense. The bump in 2015 was from my wife starting to work again (but some went towards part-time daycare for my youngest so it wasn't a complete financial gain).


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

I do want to add though, and more importantly, is not necessarily the contributions, but the techniques used to save money for contributions and maneuvering. Here's a couple things we did.

Kept cars a long time. 10+ years. After the payments are done, as long as there's no big repairs the car keeps paying for itself.
Groceries. I shop for discount and deals. Not coupon clipping, but finding great deals on meat and then buying it and freeze packaging it in the deep freezer. Our groceries are between $400-$500 a month. Also, veggies that are going bad are MOUNTAINS healthier for you than nice veggies. And for those veggies that you can't stand the look of? Juice them and still get the nutrients.
Eating out for dinner. We go to places that have "kids night" such as East Side Marios, etc. We learned how to eat out for under $50 including tip for a family of 4 in most places.
Fast Food. Check your receipts. KFC? Fill out the survey and get a free popcorn chicken... Like Burger King? Fill out the survey on the receipt, get a free Whopper. I haven't paid full price for a fast food chain in a long, long time. Wendy's? Coupons in the mail for cheeseburger combo's for around $6.
We went with a variable mortgage for the first 10 years of home ownership, but we doubled the payments. Philosophy was to be in control of our own payments. If rates went up, we could adjust or second payment to keep payments the same. This allowed us to pay down faster while being in control with a historically lower rate. We've since locked in since rates are so low.
And much of our expenses go like this. So it's less about how well our investments have done and more about how we got to those contributions.

But moving forward, we still keep some of these habits. But I'm done with a new car every 12 years. I'm done making sure dinner is under $50. Those were the sacrifices earlier to make sure it wouldn't be an issue now or later.


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## Mookie (Feb 29, 2012)

MrBlackhill said:


> My point was more focused on the income. All the diaries are about people with high income. We're all high income earners. Myself included. No one started at $40k gross income at 25, then reached $60k gross income at 35, then reached $90k gross income at 45, all that while having 2 kids and saving $1M before reaching 55.


Sounds like you're talking about me... I was making $40k gross at 25. At 35 I was making $84k. At 45 I was making $100k. I just turned 53 and currently make about $120k gross per year. I have a wife and 2 kids (both kids now in university). My wife made about $27k per year for a few years before we had kids, and then was mostly a stay at home mom. She did some daycare as well during some of those years, and we had a very small side business. Between the daycare and side business, we probably brought in an extra 10-20k per year for about 10 years. We also rented out our basement for 8 or 9 years, which brought in about $10k per year. But a couple years ago we ditched our basement tenant and reclaimed the space, my wife retired from daycare many years ago, and the side business also fizzled quite a while ago, so I'm back to being the sole bread winner for the final stretch into retirement.

I only started my money diary 4 years ago, so you wouldn't see all the back-story there. My current net worth including NPV of my future pension is over $4M.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> My point was more focused on the income. All the diaries are about people with high income. We're all high income earners. Myself included. No one started at $40k gross income at 25, then reached $60k gross income at 35, then reached $90k gross income at 45, all that while having 2 kids and saving $1M before reaching 55. Yet even that income is above the median income of Canadians.


It's possible if they managed to buy a detached home before age 30. The equity gains alone would do most of the heavy lifting. Whatever else they contributed would compound their gains.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

What is wealthy? I have no idea.

Income of over 1m? Investable assets or networth over 5m?

If you include your principal residence, I would think 1 in 15 couples have a networth greater than $1m. That ratio is probably high.

Canada is pretty poor with statistics.

Add:
There will always be some that make/have more and some that will make/have less.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I am 54 years old and was able to get my first home with a income suite for $160,000 in Brampton in 1992 .Many of us got lucky on real estate which added to our networth. In my case I was a homeowner with a child and partner when i was in a car accident at age 30 that left me in a wheelchair.Three years of lawyers fighting over who was at fault me being a passenger finally got me a settlement that addressed future care expenses compensation etc.I took $130,000 of that cash in 2007 and started a business and although it was somewhat a hobby I sold it for signicant gains 7 years later. Computer technology gains a years after my accident gave me the ability to write again using dictation ,I used the computer to increase my knowledge on many topics and although I spend $40,000 a year on PSW workers to help me I earn more than that through various investment choices over the years.My husband started with 1000-2000 a year in rrsp at age 18 and no work pension .Making 190,000 is huge income and I understand huge tax burden but IMO saving $2500 a month should be very doable if you are serious about building for your future.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

It's so hard to know when to let loose or not. Do I buy a new vehicle? replace the bad windows? Do I take a 6 month paternity leave? Nice family vacations? Seems like incurring those costs (losses) would not impact my life much and it's might be the right choice, but then what if there's a health crisis? A career crisis? A family crisis? I don't think I can risk living the upper middle class life ($100k+ spending, by my definition) until it can be fully funded, or very nearly funded, by investment cashflow... Which means $2M+ in invested assets, not including primary residence. But we won't hit that till 45+ most likely, if we do.... But then if we get there at age 45, I worry about looking back at these 10 years upcoming years with regret about being too frugal.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

I am always for finding a balance. Make sure to sprinkle some fun in along the journey. You can't forget to live while you chase the future.

Don't forget to spoil your spouse once in a while, travel and see a bit of the world, pursue your hobbies, throw some backyard BBQ's for your friends, take off for a weekend, etc.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Gator13 said:


> I am always for finding a balance. Make sure to sprinkle some fun in along the journey. You can't forget to live while you chase the future.
> 
> Don't forget to spoil your spouse once in a while, travel and see a bit of the world, pursue your hobbies, throw some backyard BBQ's for your friends, take off for a weekend, etc.


Also, it is worth noting that vast majority of the pleasures you listed are much cheaper than people imagine.
I have travelled on 5USD per day (and travelled with relative luxuries for about 60USD/day).
Barbeques, pot lucks, pretty much free. 
One needs to simply put some effort in planning and research beforehand.

All of those things are also more enjoyable with good health, which has strong correlation with age.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

peterk said:


> It's so hard to know when to let loose or not. Do I buy a new vehicle? replace the bad windows? Do I take a 6 month paternity leave? Nice family vacations? Seems like incurring those costs (losses) would not impact my life much and it's might be the right choice, but then what if there's a health crisis? A career crisis? A family crisis? I don't think I can risk living the upper middle class life ($100k+ spending, by my definition) until it can be fully funded, or very nearly funded, by investment cashflow... Which means $2M+ in invested assets, not including primary residence. But we won't hit that till 45+ most likely, if we do.... But then if we get there at age 45, I worry about looking back at these 10 years upcoming years with regret about being too frugal.


And that's exactly it. In the moment, we're all making the decisions we think are best for us and our situation. The marshmallow test and delayed gratification. Do I eat the marshmallow now, or do I wait until later when there are two.

Driving towards what financial independence one day, and then finally making it and and thinking... _"Yay! I made it! Let's got buy that boat!"_ only to be met with the voice on your shoulder whispering about how you haven't done that for the last 15-20 years because you're responsible. I'm told my grandfather died with a ton of money but he never learned how to spend it.

I was mostly interested in LEAN FIRE ($1 million invested and $40k/year income at 4% SWR) and I spent 10 years looking at those who blew their money and "did stuff" and "bought stuff" to add meaning to their lives. 

To me, the choice was obvious when in the midst of the decision making.

"Is that vacation the responsible thing to do when you need to pay for braces?"
"Should I buy that new car when I don't know if I'll have a job next month?"
"We could go out for dinner tonight, or we could just get the stuff at the grocery store..."
"New mountain bike with full suspension when my 20 year old trusty rusty works well?

But to your point, right now, a new vehicle or paying for braces won't really make a dent in existing NW or getting to the $2million+ invested. When observing that the biggest monthly swings in net worth have little to do with income or even expenses. But there's always that voice that you've trusted for a number of years whispering to do the responsible thing.

And add to the mix of health, in your 20's and 30's you're invincible. But then when you hit 40's you start to see the few unlucky ones who are having health challenges. If they could have financial options to change things up (even the flexibility to go part-time or change career for mental health), they surely would. And getting to 40 with $1million+ invested provides a lot of freedom.

It's funny, when I started investing, I had a huge issue with the concept of planning life to live to 95. Given that I work in high-tech, I've always been optimistic that if/when I'm 95, I don't want the choice to be _"well, I guess I shouldn't live any longer because I'm out of money."_ No, I wanted to make sure that when I'm 95, my choices are not limited to finances.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

kork said:


> I don't post often, but I listen a lot. Truthfully, I don't feel I can add much to a financial forum because my investments are boring. Couch Potato mainly. But I can shine in the "regret" department and introspective there!
> ...
> And it continues like this for the next 15-20 years. Work hard, don't buy a boat, don't buy a motorcycle, don't go on vacations... save, save, save! The gold is at the end of the rainbow, I was convinced! I'd work hard and save and then one day, when I finally made it to the rainbow, I'd come out of my shell having been Mr. Responsible and making sure my family and I were financially secure to then finally party and have fun!
> 
> ...


Kork, I must confess to not quite getting the underpinning of your pity party. In a nutshell, you made life choices that were not the same as many people you know and know of. Hardly unusual.

As you recognize, you have fared admirably in terms of finances. Well ahead of the curve. So now, at the ripe old age of 42, with your financial house in order and the envy of your peers, you feel that life is over, has passed you by. You feel you missed out on 20 years of partying, travelling, sowing your wild oats, being irresponsible. So, I suppose you are saying that, if you had it to do over again, you would not have married, would have refrained from having kids, buying a nice family home, etc. Instead, you would have revelled in the joys of drunken behaviour, of sometimes waking up in some strange woman’s bed, of “exploration and travel with friends” (which might even include the thrill of some time in a foreign prison). 

Has it occurred to you that, 20 years or so from now, you will be comfortably retired, see your family well-established, have the wherewithal to do just about anything you care to do, while those who took those early years to live a riotous life might just be looking at you in awe and envy and wishing they had been more like you in their early years? They will be limited in so many ways. Sure, some will end up in felicitous circumstances notwithstanding. Some will inherit wealth and that will compensate for some missteps.

What you are saying, perhaps, is you want it all and all at once. I do not apprehend that you really want to give up a lot of what you now have, but it would have been nice to have arrived at your present station in life while, at the same time, having enjoyed the profligate lifestyle you now lament having forsworn. Well Kork, that’s just life. Few can pull it off to have it all at once through life.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

To me, the easiest way to balance my life is to reflect on what is truly meaningful in my life.

That reflection leads to a reduction in materialism. And reducing materialism is the best way to save money in the present while still living the best of the present day.

Money should be spend on what truly adds value to our life. Memories, sharing stories.

Buying new clothes, new couch, new car, buying more alcohol for a party, all those things don't create memories and there's no stories to be shared with friends and family.

But going for a picnic with friends at the park, inviting friends for supper, hiking to the summit of a mountain, going on a roadtrip, doing camping, traveling, going to see an art gallery, a museum, going to see a play, etc. That's the kind of activities I'm willing to pay for.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

peterk said:


> It's so hard to know when to let loose or not. Do I buy a new vehicle? replace the bad windows? Do I take a 6 month paternity leave? Nice family vacations? Seems like incurring those costs (losses) would not impact my life much and it's might be the right choice, but then what if there's a health crisis? A career crisis? A family crisis? I don't think I can risk living the upper middle class life ($100k+ spending, by my definition) until it can be fully funded, or very nearly funded, by investment cashflow... Which means $2M+ in invested assets, not including primary residence. But we won't hit that till 45+ most likely, if we do.... But then if we get there at age 45, I worry about looking back at these 10 years upcoming years with regret about being too frugal.


I had these same questions in my thirties. I am about 10 years ahead of you and based on our posts, we had had very similar life stages financially, networth and family wise except you were much responsible at a younger age.

it really comes down to what you value, and understanding what will bring you true happiness, also what will keep your spouse happy. Most people I know that say they will live when I am fully funded, find they either never do because they are too frugal by nature, interests have changed so they don’t do the things they planned and the opportunity is gone, or they end up realizing could have spent a lot more when they were younger because they can’t spend that much when they are older. I know many older family members that have 7-8 and even 9 networths, that just keep increasing, yet they wish they would have done things when they were younger with the kids and can’t because you can’t turn back time.

It comes down to know pong what brings you and your family joy, and spending the money on thone things, and coming up with guidelines on spending. My spouse and I are very different in spending, k like buying lots of small items and he spends large chunks in a time. I always ask myself is it worth the fright, and is it cheaper divorce. The longer we are together the more expensive divorce is. 😀. My spouse loves expensive vehicles, so we have the rule, his new vehicles must be drving for min 10 years and paid for in cash. It kills me every he drop money on an expensive vehicles, but he likes it and it’s planned for, Me - I drive the nannies old car. 

Vacations is the one time we all truly wind down enough to all connect. So we spend what ever money we want on vacation. When we go on family ones, we try to find savings where we can but will not forgo a neat experience or excellent food. We spend even more when we go with extended family because we know how hard it is to get the cousins and sibling all together. We spent $40k on a trip with my siblings family before one of their kids left for college, we proabbly won’t be anle to take a month long trip with again as Their kids leave the nest. Next year we plan to spend another $60k travelling with my in laws back to their own home country because they are getting old per and my oldest will be leaving for college in a few years. We plan another big European trip the year after before my oldest leaves for university somewhere. These will take a huge hit out of our retirement funds. It’s much better than us trying to make up time when we are old. My dad is 87, we had tsmaller trips planned with him the last two years, but Covid stopped that. on the last 1’ months, my dad can barely walk up a street block, so the trips with him are pretty much gone.

We focusing the savings even though we are not ‘there’ yet when we had enough for a ‘super lean’ retirement. We keep putting money away every year, but also know that when the opportunity comes to not be so frugal. Just remember why you are working, it’s not just for the future, but now too.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Mukhang pera said:


> Kork, I must confess to not quite getting the underpinning of your pity party. In a nutshell, you made life choices that were not the same as many people you know and know of. Hardly unusual.
> 
> As you recognize, you have fared admirably in terms of finances. Well ahead of the curve. So now, at the ripe old age of 42, with your financial house in order and the envy of your peers, you feel that life is over, has passed you by. You feel you missed out on 20 years of partying, travelling, sowing your wild oats, being irresponsible. So, I suppose you are saying that, if you had it to do over again, you would not have married, would have refrained from having kids, buying a nice family home, etc. Instead, you would have revelled in the joys of drunken behaviour, of sometimes waking up in some strange woman’s bed, of “exploration and travel with friends” (which might even include the thrill of some time in a foreign prison).
> 
> ...


As suggested by another member, perhaps I can share more. So I did. It's not a "pity party" but rather introspective and experience that may help others looking to land where I'm already camped out.

I could have simply said "stop and smell the roses" or one of many other brilliant but non-contextual statements, but felt I could share some aspects of my own experience. I feel I was "too stringent" in my decision making. Always being "responsible." All the "stop and smell the roses" comments or "grass is greener" that many people have heard, but to most it's just words. Knowledge in the absence of experience is all but useless.

I shared my experience. And yeah in 20 years, I'll be able to be in a great spot to comfortably retired and have a well-established family. On paper, I'm in a good spot now. But now or in the future I won't be with the friends I could have hung out with 20 years or even 10 years ago ago. Why not? Because some have passed away. I never expected some of these friends, healthy, active friends would be dead by now. We "always" had time. Those activities or events or vacations we talked about and kept putting off to be responsible. They'll never happen. And it will just get worse with time. People will get picked off faster and faster. And I'm not talking about friends that were distant. I'm talking best friends. I'm talking friends that I hung out with as an adult, but when someone would suggest VIP tickets for an event and it cost more than I thought was reasonable, I'd opt out.

And so to move to the future, I feel that exploring the past will help chart that course. Then again, perhaps not. Perhaps the next step is to illogically and irresponsibly go to the airport and say "give me a one way ticket to ANYWHERE" and take 3 months out of life for myself. That could surely lead to an adventure and memories? But then I think "what did I pack for?" "Do I have enough cash currency?" "Will I end up in prison for the erratic behaviour of at an airport of - 'I don't care where, surprise me!'"- All those things to plan and make sure I do it right, once again, killing off the adventure part.


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## off.by.10 (Mar 16, 2014)

MrBlackhill said:


> My point was more focused on the income. All the diaries are about people with high income. We're all high income earners. Myself included. No one started at $40k gross income at 25, then reached $60k gross income at 35, then reached $90k gross income at 45, all that while having 2 kids and saving $1M before reaching 55. Yet even that income is above the median income of Canadians.


That's fairly close to my situation but I just don't feel the need for a diary. Keep in mind, when I started slightly below $40k, my cost of living was well below $20k so I managed to put away about $10k a year. I still save 20-25% of gross almost 20 years later. While I like to buy nice things every now and then, I'm not a spendy kind of person. I find that money just piles up in my account and spending it is hard work. It's been that way ever since I began working a part time job in high school.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think life is full of decisions and we all have to accept the consequences of them, or change them. Granted some decisions have long term implications so are harder to reverse.


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## robfordlives (Sep 18, 2014)

One thing as others alluded to is that once you have a bit of wealth it does compound. I remember being super focused on $1Mil, perhaps obsessed for about 2 years when I was getting close. The second million comes much faster.....having said that the market returns likely cannot be replicated the next decade. now at $2Mil (+ paid off home in alberta) I am super focused on $3Mil and that should be enough. I believe I can save the last million in five years. My salary is not low but not super high either at 160k....let's say I can earn 6% return on that $2Million it is $120k just in investment returns, can easily save another 80k to get to 200k per year goal


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

robfordlives said:


> One thing as others alluded to is that once you have a bit of wealth it does compound


This part has been surprising to me as well. It never even crossed my mind when I had just 100K net worth. But as the number gets higher, the annual gains start to become very significant and I'm noticing this now.

But there will also be setbacks and market corrections. If we go into a bear market we could see our wealth shrink. I think it's helpful to mentally prepare for this inevitability. A typical (global) equity portfolio has basically gone straight up for 12 years now. That's pretty unusual. There have only been minor pullbacks along the way, like a slightly negative year in 2018.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

robfordlives said:


> The second million comes much faster


Yes, compounding is amazing. At a rate of 9%, It takes 25 years to turn a monthly contribution of $1,000 into $1M, but then only 7 more years to reach $2M and only 4 more years to reach $3M, and less than 4 more years to reach $4M, and 2 more years to reach $5M. Basically, in 42 years, one can reach $5M, but it took him the first 25 years to reach $1M.




robfordlives said:


> My salary is not low but not super high either at 160k


Maybe in Alberta that's not super high...

Not sure if I'll ever reach such salary before retiring.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I had these same questions in my thirties. I am about 10 years ahead of you and based on our posts, we had had very similar life stages financially, networth and family wise except you were much responsible at a younger age.
> 
> it really comes down to what you value, and understanding what will bring you true happiness, also what will keep your spouse happy. Most people I know that say they will live when I am fully funded, find they either never do because they are too frugal by nature, interests have changed so they don’t do the things they planned and the opportunity is gone, or they end up realizing could have spent a lot more when they were younger because they can’t spend that much when they are older. I know many older family members that have 7-8 and even 9 networths, that just keep increasing, yet they wish they would have done things when they were younger with the kids and can’t because you can’t turn back time.
> 
> ...


Thanks PA - Yes this echos the discussions in your other thread, which is a great read.

I think this is mostly my own problem in the family... DW is less covetous than me, I'd say, and doesn't seem to desire much from the realm of luxury things. She doesn't think about money all that much, not spending it or saving and investing it, nor desiring a lavish life in the future that's more than average. She's not a minimalist or a discount shopper particularly, which I think _I am_ more of, so sometimes I find it annoying that she doesn't think of thriftiness or not-buying, but then I am thinking of thrift because I want the "good stuff" at a reasonable price, or I will forego something to buy a fancy something else. She just wants to buy all the basic things we need/want and pay for it and nothing more or less than that.

Perhaps this is the normal pangs of starting a family. Watching money go out the door on things I didn't want to buy before. Thinking "well why would I retire early at 50? My kids will still be in highschool" (+1 point for having a family sooner).


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