# Are you ashamed of your debts



## News27 (Feb 17, 2011)

I was reading in an article about a poll on quebecers and the shame of their debts and was asking myself if it was like this across Canada.. 

Do you think we should be afraid of results like this ?
DO you think it's normal to see this ?
http://www.clearfacts.ca/budget/debt/poll_most_quebecers_not_consumed_by_the_shame_of_debt


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## clovis8 (Dec 7, 2010)

It astounds me that people take cash advances on a credit card. I put more than 5k a month on my card and have never paid a cent of interest.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

It seem objectionable to measure someone's moral worth in terms of dollars and cents. You can say they are not too bright, or they traded immediate gratification for long term prosperity, but shame should not enter into the equation, in my humble opinion.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

> ...more than half (51%) use their main credit card for cash withdrawals on a regular basis.


I find it hard to believe that more than 1/2 of the people polled use their c/c to make cash advances regularly. I am wondering if there is something wrong with the poll - the way the question was worded perhaps? For example, I have a visa card that has a chequing account hooked up to it. I can use my c/c to take out cash, but the cash is actually coming from my bank account.


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## 72camaross (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm more ashamed of myself for getting into debt rather than ashamed of the debt itself. *bangs head off desk*


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

You have to be really careful. My RBC VISA for instance has a $3.50 cash advance fee, that also applies when you pay bills using your credit card, they are treated like cash advance and interest becomes payable from the date of withdrawal. I may not be wording it correctly but those are the rules. I once made the mistake of using my credit card to get cash for the week and I was dinged in fees pretty good. It was an honest mistake in my case, but the ability to get cash from a credit card, when you have insufficient cash in your bank account, is perhaps too hard to resist for some. Maybe there are a lot of people who don't really understand what they are doing and just blindly pay the fees.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

These financial-institution sponsored polls are usually pretty dumb.

The title seems to imply that the other 77% of Quebecors are not ashamed about their debt, but should be. 

What if the other 77% of people don't have any debt? Or maybe their debt is so small it's nothing to be ashamed about? What if they are more "worried" rather than "ashamed" about their debt?

Dumb.

As for the 51% of Quebecors who use cash-advance from their credit card - the exact wording is:



> Just 23% of Quebecers polled report feeling shamed by their level of indebtedness. And _among this minority_, more than half (51%) use their main credit card for cash withdrawals on a regular basis.


So it's 51% of 23% which is 12%, not 51%. Still high, but much more believable.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> As for the 51% of Quebecors who use cash-advance from their credit card - the exact wording is:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's 51% of 23% which is 12%, not 51%. Still high, but much more believable.


Thank you for pointing that out. I feel ashamed of my reading and interpretation skills...I wonder if there's a poll for that


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> You have to be really careful. My RBC VISA for instance has a $3.50 cash advance fee, ......but the ability to get cash from a credit card, when you have insufficient cash in your bank account, is perhaps too hard to resist for some. Maybe there are a lot of people who don't really understand what they are doing and just blindly pay the fees.


We are almost a cashless society...plastic replaces paper and not in a good
way. People want to withdraw cash at the bars or wherever..you are going
to pay for that..because that is not the way the credit card system is
setup.

Banks love those people that do that indescriminately and carelessly..and
hope they keep doing it and paying only the minimum amount which then
will mean that they will take 15 or 17 years or more to pay off the balance..
as long as they don't keep adding to it.

Using your Visa wisely...priceless!
BUT getting cash from it.."can you hear that GIANT SUCKING SOUND?"

and maybe the corollary..

"having a balance in your bank acct at the end of the month..PRICELESS!
for everything else..there's Master Card1"


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

personally, i love that people have trouble with their finances. it is not like there isn't a library nearby preventing them from educating themselves. oh, of course, blame it on your parents, classic!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sprocket1200 said:


> personally, i love that people have trouble with their finances. it is not like there isn't a library nearby preventing them from educating themselves. oh, of course, blame it on your parents, classic!


Well, it's more like the educational system letting them down and not
preparing them for the realities of life,,ie: Personal Finances and Fiscal
Management 101...

The parents of the previous and current generation are both too busy working
at making money to make ends meet...inflation, higher taxes on all sides,
higher cost of living...


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

sprocket1200 said:


> personally, i love that people have trouble with their finances. it is not like there isn't a library nearby preventing them from educating themselves. oh, of course, blame it on your parents, classic!


It doesn't do our country much good, a country of financial illiterate.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Whose responsibility is it to teach kids financial literacy?

Schools - The system is already packed with other issues, there are special needs kids, over packed classrooms and curriculums, not to mention that many of these teachers don't have financial literacy themselves, etc. 


Government - Any one watch the debate, do they have idea of what being financially responsible means? I wouldn't want them to teach my daughter how to balance their checkbooks..

Parents - This is where I think the responsibility lies. I don't expect anyone else to do it, nor are there many people that I would trust to teach this subject better than myself. What abouth these parents who don't have any financial literacy themselves, how do they teach there kids? Or are too busy to teach their kids... Sorry too busy to teach your kids, you shouldn't be having kids then. 

I think out of these options, it's really up to adults to take responsibility for themselves (especially if they are parents), and if they don't know what to do, to go and get help. There are books out there, there are people you can ask, hey I even heard there are some money forums that people could go to all for free on the internet.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

carverman said:


> Well, it's more like the educational system letting them down and not
> preparing them for the realities of life,,ie: Personal Finances and Fiscal
> Management 101...
> 
> ...


what? the education system taught them how to read, and maybe even spell library. if they can't add that up, then just let the strong survive!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

People know what they could or should do......they just don't care.

It is a lot more fun spending than saving.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> Whose responsibility is it to teach kids financial literacy?
> 
> Schools - The system is already packed with other issues, there are special needs kids, over packed classrooms and curriculums, not to mention that many of these teachers don't have financial literacy themselves, etc.


The place to teach "learning" besides the 3 Rs (reading & writing & 'rithmetic) has to be the schools. 
The problem with the schools is like with the gov'ts these days.. easy taxpayer's money available
and how to waste it most effectively,,,is that teachers and principals are concerned about more "about what's in it for me TODAY"...rather than be concerned about the child's ability to cope in the uncharted waters of the financial abyss in the future.

I'm using the metaphor to illustrate that good behaviour and success in the world of the future..doesn't always begin at home..
society has a responsibilty for the quality of the next generation.




> Government - Any one watch the debate, do they have idea of what being financially responsible means? I wouldn't want them to teach my daughter how to balance their checkbooks..


Fiscal irresponsibility and corruption at the "highest" level?



> Parents - This is where I think the responsibility lies. I don't expect anyone else to do it, nor are there many people that I would trust to teach this subject better than myself. What abouth these parents who don't have any financial literacy themselves, how do they teach there kids? Or are too busy to teach their kids... Sorry too busy to teach your kids, you shouldn't be having kids then. [/QUOTE}
> 
> Well. we as a society can't always put the entire load on the parents..who in some cases, have very little financial education or levels of education themselves, and rely on "seat of the pants" experience from their lives,because neither their parents or their schools imparted good and prudent knowledge on how to budget....and how to manage within a budget.
> 
> ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sprocket1200 said:


> what? the education system taught them how to read, and maybe even spell library. if they can't add that up, then just let the strong survive!


And that's the way it is today..the strong survive in a world of every increasing fiscal depravity and irresponsibility..where senators who get appointed to one of the highest positions in the gov't, act totally irresponsible and defraud the taxpayer..and that ripples down the line as well... (Jungle mentality?) 

All you need is one leader..everyone remembers Mulroney and the bags of cash he got from KHS, as "under-the-table" payment for influencing AC in the purchase of jumbo jets. He didn't even declare that as income to Rev Canada until he knew he would be
caught..and then only partially..as "for services rendered"to KHS.
He was investigated for that, just like the PM after that (Gomery report) and they couldn't find any evidence to pin them
down, never mind convict them of anything..because they are mostly lawyers in those positions....
and we all know how much above the law they are, given the opportunity to cash in....


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## donaldhumiston (Apr 26, 2011)

I do believe that most people are ashamed of having debts. Who would not? However, this is one of those private things in life that is commonly not being broadcasted. It's a given that people do not want to divulge that.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Yes, there seems to be a certain amount of social stigma associated with carrying debt. However, that stigma has not yet translated into any sort of change in action on a grand scale that I've been able to detect.

Also, PA's post above is very good. You do have to figure out who is responsible for teaching our children. I have opined in the past that it should be schools that teach our kids this, but PA has a point about considering the source. At the end of the day, this debate should not be allowed to allow children to be brought up without money management skills while the debate continues. We've got at least two generations who seem too easy to manipulate into buying all sorts of e-waste. For example, most people don't really need a cell phone. This is a luxury device, but people's misperception of need in this case translates to billions in profit for the telcos and empty wallets for us. This example demonstrates that today's generation of spenders seem unable to tell the difference between want and need. And that is troubling.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

i whole heartedly believe that it is the parents job. i would NEVER leave the education of my children (or myself) solely to the schools or gov't... (nor do I trust their abilities)


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

In recent years, when a young couple I know is getting married, I give them a copy of David Bach's book "Smart Couples Finish Rich." I don't know whether any of them even open the cover, but at least I've tried!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> In recent years, when a young couple I know is getting married, I give them a copy of David Bach's book "Smart Couples Finish Rich." I don't know whether any of them even open the cover, but at least I've tried!


Very good..but I would rather see this book go out to more of those
ladies that are of independent means..
http://www.amazon.ca/Smart-Women-Finish-Rich-Creating/dp/0385659679/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

reminds me of a Frankie Sinatra song...

When I was seventeen
It was a very good year
It was a very good year for small town girls
And soft summer nights
We'd hide from the lights
On the village green
When I was seventeen

When I was twenty-one
It was a very good year
It was a very good year for city girls
Who lived up the stair
With all that perfumed hair
And it came undone
When I was twenty-one

When I was thirty-five
It was a very good year
*It was a very good year for blue-blooded girls 
Of independent means*
We'd ride in limousines
Their chauffeurs would drive
When I was thirty-five

But now the days grow short
I'm in the autumn of the year
And now I think of my life as *vintage wine*
From fine old ($250.00) kegs
From the brim to the ($8.00)dregs
And it poured sweet and clear
It was a very good year


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

The women who are independant financially (and not in debt), don't really need to read that book. Most of the information is common sense.

Plus, nothing wrong with vintage wines... if you're not in debt


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

the-royal-mail said:


> Yes, there seems to be a certain amount of social stigma associated with carrying debt. However, that stigma has not yet translated into any sort of change in action on a grand scale that I've been able to detect.
> 
> Also, PA's post above is very good. You do have to figure out who is responsible for teaching our children. I have opined in the past that it should be schools that teach our kids this, but PA has a point about considering the source. At the end of the day, *this debate should not be allowed to allow children to be brought up without money management skills while the debate continues.* We've got at least two generations who seem too easy to manipulate into buying all sorts of e-waste. For example, most people don't really need a cell phone. This is a luxury device, but people's misperception of need in this case translates to billions in profit for the telcos and empty wallets for us. *This example demonstrates that today's generation of spenders seem unable to tell the difference between want and need. And that is troubling*.


I think that though there is a stigma for debt, there is a stronger drive for people to 'appear' to be successful. Just like you hear people talk about how great they do in their stock picks, seldomly do you hear that they lost any money. People tend to talk about their purchases as if they actually paid for them, rather than how they financed them. Also, I think there are some people that really don't care about debt, or are not bothered by it at all. That's how they grew up, and they figure there's nothing wrong with it. They have different priorities, and have said they should live for today, why worry about tomorrow. 

I agree with your part that kids MUST be taught financial skills. By who?

For it to be effective, it requires constant reinforcement, coaching and mentoring by someone the child trusts. Unlike reading or math, there are no rules that apply to everyone for everything. Math or reading, there are basic rules, and 1+1 =2 in every family across the world. We can tell kids to spend only what they need, but 'needs' are defined differently. You can teach them the basics of spend less than you make, but even then there are exceptions. I remember I was told never to buy anything I didn't have money for. Then it took me a while to come around, and get a mortgage, what about investments, etc. I think schools can help by teaching about the fundamentals, and the technical aspects of finance, at least that's a start. Really though, financial education has to come down to the parent. A teacher isn't going to tell the kid not to blow their birthday money on a phone. It's up to the parents to provide that guidance. Also, kids will learn what they see in their families. 

In terms of wants and needs, to be honest I think this overrated, and everyone talks about it all the time. Really though, after food, water, shelter what is really a need? So you could eat bread and oatmeal all the time, and live in your parents basements, you don't need anything else. I see nothing wrong with going with your wants. Needs and wants are only important when you don't have enough to pay for you needs, and what to spend them on wants instead. As long as you have your needs prioritized as first, then you can have the what ever you want, as long as it doesn't put you in debt. There are alot of things that I don't need but want in order to make my life easier or I believe increases my quality of life. That's only for me judge.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> The women who are independant financially (and not in debt), don't really need to read that book. Most of the information is common sense.
> 
> Plus, nothing wrong with vintage wines... if you're not in debt


Yes, I fully agree with you. There are women out there that are very
successful even if they had to go through some hardships initially..like
bad breaks, bad choice of life partners/husbands etc.
Take Arlene Dickenson (Dragon's Den)..she possesses common sense 
decision making qualities that enable her to make smart business decisions and remain successful ...and still be a mom when she wants to... to her grown up? kids. 

Carve (" show me the money") => marriage proposal to Arlene Dickenson


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> I think that though there is a stigma for debt, there is a stronger drive for people to 'appear' to be successful. Just like you hear people talk about how great they do in their stock picks, seldomly do you hear that they lost any money. People tend to talk about their purchases as if they actually paid for them, rather than how they financed them. *Also, I think there are some people that really don't care about debt, or are not bothered by it at all. That's how they grew up, and they figure there's nothing wrong with it. They have different priorities, and have said they should live for today, why worry about tomorrow. *


Yes there are lots of people out there that "frugality" is not in their vocabulary. 
If they seem to be successful with good paying careers, they probably will,
as you say "live for today".. and why should they care about tomorrow (or rainy
day savings)??, so lets adopt the "start living" attitude.

Hmmm..that kinda reminds me...I've always wanted a Porsche, do I NEED a
Porche?..NO!..do I WANT a Porche to get that Macho-Macho-Man feeling? YES!!!!!!!!..and since my credit rating is AAA,
(because of my frugality and saving $242 each time I buy a $8 bottle
of "glug"..california's finest vintages") ... perhaps I have saved enough for a 
down payment over the last 5 years???..so what's stopping me?...
... what the heck..I'm sure there are a couple of CC companies that will issue me a platinum card, to punk down at the dealer's desk as I sign the purchase contract for one..

...even if I'm retired on a declining company pension and two gov't barely subsistence pensions...so..what's stopping me from going over to a Porsche dealer and driving away with one of my life's dreams? 

For those things in life that just can't wait..there is Master Card..
and the feeling you get from that kind of purchase..Euphoria!

As the ole saying goes."Just when I started to play life by the rules.....
they went and changed the rules on me!"


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## donaldhumiston (Apr 26, 2011)

I would say it is human nature. People are just ashamed of the bad things that has occured to them. Especially if it was their own doings.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Debt is fine if you can handle it, nothing wrong with enjoying life's finer things on credit, as long as you can pay the bills at the end of the month.

Debt will always be with you, label it what you want, condo fees, Property Taxes, utilities, it is all Debt, you just have to be able to handle it.

I know many wealthy people, so what, it is just Government IOU's, pieces of paper, some inheritance to some relative you may not have seen in years.


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