# Any painting / handymen in here?



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

i know this is a 'financial' website, but the people in here offer some good advice in ALL areas. (Thanks to those who offered advice to a previous thread of mine re painting tire rims ....just finished them!)
Now...another problem. I have an exterior basement door that is down a concrete stairwell. The way the sun shines here, the bottom half of the door & frame gets ZERO sun, so it's always in shade /damp/ rain/ snow. House is only 5 years old. 
The paint down at the bottoms of the wooden door frame (not the door itself, which is metal) keeps peeling off, I re-paint the area each year. Just scraped it all away again and the wood underneath iss actually wet to the feel. What can i do to solve this before the wood actually rots away?
Is there a primer/sealer/painting solution to this? I've just painted so far, using ext. water-base paint (no primer / sealer). I've thought about brushing on some of that green copper-based 'end-cut' stuff, like we used to dip fence posts in before planting them in the ground! Maybe shellac...? Duck tape or WD-40? (kidding!) Also considered fashioning some sort of plastic covering to attach or place over area & seal with silicon or something... I dunno.
Any suggestions ? Thanks all!
(ps I have a couple of pics if anyone's interested)


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Painting the moist wood with preservative is an excellent idea. Wood with more than 18% moisture content will support micro-organisms that cause rot. You certainly have well in excess of this level of moisture.

Wood is the wrong material for this application. Long term, you'll probably have to change to a fibreglass door.

In the mean time, I'd switch to concrete paint. Concrete paint will breathe. This will allow the moisture to get out.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Thanks. Just to clarify it's not the DOOR itself (which is metal) it's with the bottoms of the wooden door frame . or jamb. or whatever it's called. the wooden exterior frame around the door?


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## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Sure. That's fine. Treat the wood as best you can. That will delay the replacement day of the door but it will not eliminate it. Wet wood does not last indefinitely and you can't get at the back of it. Hopefully, it was pressure treated wood, given that it was installed below grade, but it probably isn't.

Anything you can do to keep the wood dry will work in your favour.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

One thing that is for sure -- you can't paint wet wood just as much as you can't weld rust. Ensure that the wood is not punky, rotten, or wet if you are going to paint it again, otherwise this is a pointless adventure.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

just wondering....crazy idea....If the water /dampness is somehow getting "trapped" on the wood at the bottom of the door frame, down where it meets the base, ground, whatever...Would it make any sense if I could somehow cut away a little of the frame there (say 1/4" or so), where it meets the base - to allow the water to maybe 'run off'? Know what i mean.? Woul that hurt the integrity of the whole frome? Just asking??
Also - is there a way to post pictures here on the forum?


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

The problem is the damp environment and I don't think there is anything you can do about it. The green anti rot stuff will stave off the inevitable. Some day you will have to replace the frame but not for a long time. Have seen similar cases where the bottom 6" or a foot rotted off the frame, the door still worked.

You must have some damp basement, that would be my first concern.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Is there an outer door or cover over the cellar steps? I was thinking of the old houses that had them, they did not have so much trouble with dampness because they kept the rain and snow out.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

no - no outer door. just standard open stairwell (concrete) with wood steps leading down.
I lay planks across top of stairwell in winter , to keep most of the snow out.(we never use it for entry/exit) There's a drain at the bottom of stairwell in the concrete that drains really well too. Door, or frame is never really just "sitting" in water. House is well-constructed otherwise (4 years old) and basement if fine. It's just the lack of any sunlight or wind circulation down there , that i think is the problem.
what about my idea to cut away a piece at the bottom of the side of the frame? any good? or might that only cause MORE problems?


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## Daniel A. (Mar 20, 2011)

Use a heat gun to dry it out, sand it, if there is a space seal with Lexel® Sealant, then use a good outdoor paint.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

I don't think cutting away the bottom would help or be worthwhile. It sounds like it is only direct rain that it getting the door frame wet? 
Along the lines of an outer door maybe an awning would keep the weather off (not sure of configuration or location re/ esthetics).
If it was out of sight I might just build a wooden frame and heavy plastic cover (greenhouse style).

Re/ attaching pics, using my laptop/desktop PC, click on the 'insert image' icon above the reply area (third icon from the right), go to 'from computer' tab and click 'use basic uploader' in lower right, from there you can browse to the jpg file on your computer, then click upload file(s).


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

here ya go:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> just wondering....crazy idea....If the water /dampness is somehow getting "trapped" on the wood at the bottom of the door frame, down where it meets the base, ground, whatever...*Would it make any sense if I could somehow cut away a little of the frame there (say 1/4" or so), where it meets the base * - to allow the water to maybe 'run off'? Know what i mean.? Woul that hurt the integrity of the whole frome? Just asking??





I had a similar problem with my garage door frame..drainage and moisture that was causing some rot at the very bottom of the door frame and the paint around there to peel.

I solved it.. (or rather had a contractor solve it) by putting in a new drainage, busting out the old cracked concrete floor in the garage, new crushed stone for drainage under the new concrete floor,
and also cutting about 1 inch of from the bottom of the door frame, as the new concrete floor was about 1 inches higher than the old concrete floor in order to prevent water from running in under the garage door.

No more moisture wicking and no more rot or paint peeling and the frame is painted with alkyd enamel.

In your case, 


> no - no outer door. just standard open stairwell (concrete) with wood steps leading down.
> 
> *I lay planks across top of stairwell in winter , to keep most of the snow out*.(we never use it for entry/exit) There's a drain at the bottom of stairwell in the concrete that drains really well too. Door, or frame is never really just "sitting" in water.
> 
> House is well-constructed otherwise (4 years old) and basement if fine.* It's just the lack of any sunlight or wind circulation down there , that i think is the problem.*


I think you hit the "nail on the head" there. it's a lack of air circulation,the wooden frame absorbing moisture and causing the paint used to peel, by moisture in the wood extruding itself to the inside of the paint.



> what about my idea to cut away a piece at the bottom of the side of the frame? any good? or might that only cause MORE problems?


That could help a little IF the problem is that the snow melt is wicking underneath into the bottom of the door frame.

Changing the type of paint to a breathable latex would help a bit, but the fundamental problem is that area
collects too much moisture never driying out enough because there is no direct sun getting to it.

What to do in a case like that? Change the door frame to a different material..aluminium or have the existing frame covered with factory painted aluminium like some garage doors are. The painted aluminium clad frame doesn't rust, doesn't wick or retain water and lack of sun or air circulation won't bother it.

Of course, changing the door frame or cladding it, is expensive, but it will solve the problem and no more painting required.

If that is too expensive for you, , then scraping off the existing damaged paint, drying out the area door frame with a good portable electric heater (or a propane heater), then applying a generous coat of wood preservative (green stuff) or I prefer another type like of Thomsons Water Seal like they use for decking,
let it soak into the dried out door frame , and making sure that there is a 1/4 inch gap at the bottom as you
suggest to prevent water wicking into the wood frame.

After applying a good preservative (3 coats at least and letting it dry in between coats) applying a top coat or two of breathable paint ..someone suggested concrete paint?...but don't ever use any kind of alkyd enamel outdoor paint or you will get a repeat of the problem after 3 or 4 years with enamel paint.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> here ya go:
> View attachment 11362


Looks like latex paint peeling. Latex in wet areas absorbs water and peels.
Also, when it gets wet because the wood is wet underneath, it just continues to peel.

Changing the type of paint, applying generous wood preservative underneath would help, but from the picture, the best solution is to clad the entire frame with painted aluminium cladding, making sure that the wood frame is generously coated with a good preservative to stop any future rot FIRST,then applying painted white aluminum
cladding. 

The main problem here IS the lack of direct sunlight and air circulation to dry things out.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Thanks caverman (& others) Yeah, let's just say i'd like to attempt to solve this problem as "inexpensively" as possible!
Going with the wood preservative / paint approach - couple of questions: I've got some Thomsons lying around so I'll try that. Can you paint right over that (once it's dry)/ Will the paint "take"? should i use a primer over it first? have u actually done this anytime?
Can you be any more specific on what "breathable paint" is - brand? type? 
also re cutting away a bit of wood at bottom frame. i'm a bit leery if this might only cause more problems than solve it - ie maybe allow any water, rain to seep in under...? I dunno...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Boat builders know how to have wood stand up to wet environments. One method that works well, is to impregnate the wood with a thin penetrating epoxy. You would drill quite a number of small holes in the door frame. Perhaps at an angle facing down wards say 45 or 30 degrees. Scrape off any surface paint. Then use a portable electric heater to dry the wood for a day or more. Then inject the 2-part epoxy resin into the holes using a syringe (and keep doing that until the holes remain full. Coat the surface with the same resin. Once resin is dry (allow a few days), give the frame a coat of a good outdoor or marine enamel paint. This method is often used once wood has already rotted, but is also effective for new wood to prevent rot.

There are a number of suppliers of such resins. 
https://www.systemthree.com/pages/clear-finishing-of-outdoor-wood
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/boatlife--git-rot-penetrating-epoxy--P004_120_001_009
http://www.rotdoctor.com/

Most modern homes have aluminum flashing over exterior door and window frames. This, if properly caulked will keep the water away from the wood. If you go this route, you again will want to remove paint and thoroughly dry the wood. Then give it a few coats of wood preservative (Pentox?) available from hardware stores. Then get the frame cladded and caulked with sealant.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> Thanks caverman (& others) Yeah, let's just say i'd like to attempt to solve this problem as "inexpensively" as possible!
> Going with the wood preservative / paint approach - couple of questions: I've got some Thomsons lying around so I'll try that. Can you paint right over that (once it's dry)/ Will the paint "take"? should i use a primer over it first? *have u actually done this anytime*?


Yes I have done this in previous years. 

You CAN'T paint over Thomson's water seal..it is an oil based wood sealer and takes several months to dry. If you were going to clad the door frame with white aluminium cladding, then you would treat the wood surfaces (which need to be dried first) with Thomson's water seal.

You ALWAYS need a good primer over bare wood. I use a white primer called Zinsser. it is the best primer for interior and exterior surfaces where paint has to be applied afterwards. it is sold by CTC, Lowes and H-D.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.zinsser-bulls-eye-1-2-3.1000123375.html


> Can you be any more specific on what "breathable paint" is - brand? type?


I like and use Benjamin Moore exterior paints where moisture buildup is a prime concern.
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-ca/for-your-home/paint-products/aura-waterborne-exterior-paint
You can get it in Flat, Low luster, satin and semi-gloss.

If it were me, I would choose the satin.

In your situation, don't use old paint or cheap paint from CTC or elsewhere. Spend the money on a gallon of really good breathable ACRYLIC paint that has soap and water cleanup. You really need a *good outdoor acrylic paint over the primer*.




> also re cutting away a bit of wood at bottom frame. i'm a bit leery if this might only cause more problems than solve it - ie maybe allow any water, rain to seep in under...? I dunno...


Well that is up to you..it all depends on how much water will be sitting at the bottom of the door frame and how good the caulking is that seals the joints. You will need to recaulk with a good outdoor acrylic paintable caulking compound anyway. I wouldn't trust the old caulking at least in the bottom areas from what your picture shows.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

hey thanks again carverman. I actually just picked up a can of that same Zinsser product this morning! - before i read your post. I think I'm going to give the primer / acrylic paint approach a try & see hoe that works out...


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Hadn't seen the pics until now. That door sill is going to rot out before long. You can get composite sills at Rona and probably elsewhere that won't rot. Don't know if these Endura sills and frames are available in Canada, but they address the frame rot problem by splicing composite material to the bottom of the door frame. 

Just priming and painting won't last long. I have a similar situation on our pumphouse door. I have to put in a complete new door frame every 5 years or so. But that is not a house door. I make the non-standard size door frame myself. Next time I will use composite material and hope it lasts a lot longer.


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## Shanline (Aug 24, 2016)

I have seen now a days many of them using plastic door for themselves. How it fit? I would like to know. And how this last long? Can anyone here have practical experience using this plastic door?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> The problem is the damp environment and I don't think there is anything you can do about it. The green anti rot stuff will stave off the inevitable. Some day you will have to replace the frame but not for a long time. Have seen similar cases where the bottom 6" or a foot rotted off the frame, the door still worked.You must have some damp basement, that would be my first concern.



I agree on this. the door frame is nailed secured) to the framing. Even if the bottom of the door sill rots, the door will still function as long as the hinge area integrity is sound.

My first suggestion (as a cheaper alternative), is to cut away 1/4 inch at the bottom of the door frame still applies
Water, if left lying there year round, from rain or melting snow accumulation will "wick" into the wood at the bottom of the door frame and the paint will start to peel.




> agent99: That door sill is going to rot out before long. You can get composite sills at Rona and probably elsewhere that won't rot.... splicing composite material to the bottom of the door frame.
> Just priming and painting won't last long.



It will last at least 5 years depending on how he goes about it. This is assuming of course that water is not sitting there at the bottom year round with no sun or air circulation...in that case, he has to think about a drainage scheme to get the water out ....or the composite door frame and sill as you suggest.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Just to clarify: the bottoms of the sides of the frame (where the problem is) NEVER just sit in standing water or snow. The drainage is good - water NEVER rises above the bottom sill running below the bottom of the frame. Funny though, that that bottom wooden sill doesn't show the signs of rot ....like the bottom of the side of the frame does, as per the picture...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

jargey3000 said:


> Just to clarify: the bottoms of the sides of the frame (where the problem is) NEVER just sit in standing water or snow. The drainage is good - water NEVER rises above the bottom sill running below the bottom of the frame. Funny though, that that bottom wooden sill doesn't show the signs of rot ....like the bottom of the side of the frame does, as per the picture...



i'm not handy but i'm fond of wood. My best guess is that the wood used for the door frame bottom - the threshhold? - is hemlock or douglas fir or one of the fabled water-resistant timber species, which is why this part is holding up well. These woods are valuable & expensive.

meanwhile the vertical side planks are cheaper construction grade lumber from a non-water-resistant tree, perhaps birch or spruce.

some great suggestions in this thread re water-proofing compounds, epoxy drilling & concrete breathing paints for a non-handy homeowner who happens to own a 19th century victorian cottage ...


.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> i'm not handy but i'm fond of wood. My best guess is that the wood used for the door frame bottom - the threshhold? - is hemlock or douglas fir or one of the fabled water-resistant timber species, which is why this part is holding up well. These woods are valuable & expensive.


Not in recent years Humble. That is the wood that was used at one time, but hemlock is scarce and
Douglas Fir or redwood is very expensive these days, so manufacturers of production door frames use the cheapest wood they can get away with these days.
For interiors it usually finger jointed pine pieces that are either natural untreated or for exterior white pine or sometimes red pine.
Oak can't stand in water..turns black, so it can only be used for premium interior doors. 


> meanwhile the vertical side planks are cheaper construction grade lumber from a non-water-resistant tree, perhaps birch or spruce.


Birch is considered a hard wood these days and a very expensive to make production door frames. Any tree except maybe red cedar can be considered non water resistant.

Red cedar, the kind of wood used for premium decks is the best for water resistance. A door frame (and door) made of red cedar will last for years and years without any visible signs of water damage..but red cedar doors and windows are rarely used in standard construction homes these days.....too expensive!
It's usually white (knotty) pine painted with a primer. 



> some great suggestions in this thread re water-proofing compounds, epoxy drilling & concrete breathing paints for a non-handy homeowner who happens to own a 19th century victorian cottage ...


Sounds like a lot of work and great expense. Concrete breathing paints may be good for concrete floors where there is moisture exuding from the concrete slab, but may not be the best coating for wood.

I wouldn't want to spend that kind of money on concrete paint, (and I did use it to paint my garage floor new concrete slab floor as a sealer and it is still good 4 years later), but to use it on a door frame ..hmmm?
..not sure about that.

As far as epoxy injection, you must mean the wood restoration kit that Lee Valley sells to restore rotted wooden window sashes and doors?

It is very pricey, but may do the job if there isn't a cheaper solution.

Lee Valley Wood Restoration kit...24fl oz : $64.50 Epoxy fillers/repair putty: $34.50


> Rotten or punky wood presents a difficult restoration problem when the piece to be repaired cannot be easily removed (window sills, stair treads, posts). This two-part system consists of a liquid epoxy, which is used to consolidate the repair area, and a putty epoxy, which fills the voids and can be shaped to replace missing sections.
> The liquid is fluid enough to soak into rotten wood, making it solid again. The putty can be sanded, planed, painted, and stained. Together, these epoxy-based products can simplify tough restoration tasks. The kit contains 12 fl oz of each epoxy, applicator bottle, putty knife, and instructions. 12 fl oz, two-part replacement sets can also be ordered.


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