# A plan for opening travel between the USA/Canada



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

It is my understanding that there are no discussions taking place between Canada and the USA on a plan or a framework for reopening our borders. Should our country be working on a plan for reopening the border? If the answer is yes should vaccination passports be a key component of any such plan? Or are you just happy to basically stop all non- essential travel between the USA and Canada ?


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> It is my understanding that there are no discussions taking place between Canada and the USA on a plan or a framework for reopening our borders. Should our country be working on a plan for reopening the border? If the answer is yes should vaccination passports be a key component of any such plan? Or are you just happy to basically stop all non- essential travel between the USA and Canada ?


Just wait till we don't have vaccine shortages and ICUs aren't full, then let'r'rip.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

We have signed up to get a certificate once we get the shot.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Just wait till we don't have vaccine shortages and ICUs aren't full, then let'r'rip.


Knowing how government is working it would be good if they were working on plan now so we can travel when your conditions are.met.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Knowing how government is working it would be good if they were working on plan now so we can travel when your conditions are.met.


Well the provinces are being clear, I'm quite happy with how good the communication from the Ontario government has been.

I honestly don't think the federal government has a plan.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I don’t think anything is imminent. The worst is still to come in Ontario. You can’t even go to church or eat on a restaurant patio.


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## e_valley (Apr 6, 2021)

zinfit said:


> It is my understanding that there are no discussions taking place between Canada and the USA on a plan or a framework for reopening our borders. Should our country be working on a plan for reopening the border? If the answer is yes should vaccination passports be a key component of any such plan? Or are you just happy to basically stop all non- essential travel between the USA and Canada ?


Lots of info available (google "canada us border reopening") ... apparently the two gov'ts meet monthly on this topic, one US congressman hopes for a "July" reopening.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

in US already 108M got at least 1 vaccine, they are doing about 3M shots per day, so in about 20-25 days they gonna vaccinate about 50% of population... (on Israel example , we can see that after 50% got at least 1 shot, new cases count went sharply down)... so from US side it's pretty safe to open borders in May... esp we both countries introduce "vaccination passport", so only vaccinated people will be able to cross border.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The border actually is open, just full of roadblocks to navigate.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

gibor365 said:


> in US already 108M got at least 1 vaccine, they are doing about 3M shots per day, so in about 20-25 days they gonna vaccinate about 50% of population... (on Israel example , we can see that after 50% got at least 1 shot, new cases count went sharply down)... so from US side it's pretty safe to open borders in May... esp we both countries introduce "vaccination passport", so only vaccinated people will be able to cross border.


I think the US just hit 4 million per day.JNJ will have 100 million doses out shortly and the daily count goes to 5 million per day. By June 1 they should be finished.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I think the US just hit 4 million per day.JNJ will have 100 million doses out shortly and the daily count goes to 5 million per day. By June 1 they should be finished.


Which means hopefully we should be able to get done a few weeks later.

Now they just need a vaccine for kids.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> It is my understanding that there are no discussions taking place between Canada and the USA on a plan or a framework for reopening our borders. Should our country be working on a plan for reopening the border? If the answer is yes should vaccination passports be a key component of any such plan? Or are you just happy to basically stop all non- essential travel between the USA and Canada ?


We should be looking to 'normalize' travel in the coming months, I think. Maybe an interim period of proof of vaccination or negative PCR test. And continue requiring masks during travel, at least until infection rates in both countries are down to manageable levels. My two cents. 

I'm sure people on this board would support going full-Texas. Live free or die hard.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Which means hopefully we should be able to get done a few weeks later.
> 
> Now they just need a vaccine for kids.


I think one of them has been approved for children down to age 12. I think largely herd immunity should be kicking in. It may be determined that the balance of risks might not warrant vaccinating kids because vaccines aren't without risk and children are unlikely to have significant illness with COVID19.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

andrewf said:


> I think one of them has been approved for children down to age 12. I think largely herd immunity should be kicking in. It may be determined that the balance of risks might not warrant vaccinating kids because vaccines aren't without risk and children are unlikely to have significant illness with COVID19.


They can still be carriers. That is how a few people I know became covid statistics in the last few months. Child brings it home from school and gives it to parents and grandparents. Granted the goal is to have enough herd immunity so that kids are NOT picking up the virus in the first place. 

Spouse and I remain at some risk due to some babysitting duties we feel obliged to undertake with our 3 year old grandchild when there are issues at daycare. 

I am pretty confident Canada will get most adult Canadians jabbed by late June. We just need to maintain some patience for a little while longer. 

Continuing to mask until almost everyone is vaccinated is a necessary courtesy measure. Strangers don't know if you are vaccinated, or simply being a prick.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> They can still be carriers. That is how a few people I know became covid statistics in the last few months. Child brings it home from school and gives it to parents and grandparents. Granted the goal is to have enough herd immunity so that kids are NOT picking up the virus in the first place.
> 
> Spouse and I remain at some risk due to some babysitting duties we feel obliged to undertake with our 3 year old grandchild when there are issues at daycare.
> 
> ...


I just went for a walk, lots of people at the park, large groups, like 20+ ppl with lawn chairs and snacks. 
Few masks, the next wave is coming, and unless they go even more rigid than they did last April, it's not going to stop.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> I just went for a walk, lots of people at the park, large groups, like 20+ ppl with lawn chairs and snacks.
> Few masks, the next wave is coming, and unless they go even more rigid than they did last April, it's not going to stop.


Sometimes YCFS.....


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> I just went for a walk, lots of people at the park, large groups, like 20+ ppl with lawn chairs and snacks.
> Few masks, the next wave is coming, and unless they go even more rigid than they did last April, it's not going to stop.


Dr Fauci disagrees about another wave....btw 20 people is nothing. Heres the BlueJay game.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The evidence is pretty strong that vaccinated people are not transmitters. The Pfizer/Israel study and the CDC guideline seem to make that clear. Yes their a 6% possibility that that a vaccinated person might have covid. If they did it would a very weak case and would likely be blocked by a facemark. Besides a PCR test has also be used. I would be far more concerned about the 6000 plus people who are testing daily and what stringent measures are being imposed on these individuals if any. For people no aware of the Pfizer I attach it.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I think it is pathetic that political leaders cannot seem provide any leadership on this matter. What is even more pathetic is the containment and detention policies still being used on incoming vaccinated travellers.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I think it is pathetic that political leaders cannot seem provide any leadership on this matter. What is even more pathetic is the containment and detention policies still being used on incoming vaccinated travellers.


 ... as if politics should be dictating a (global) public health matter. 

From post #4492 Coronavirus (COVID-19) or directly from CDC's site: COVID-19 in Canada - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC - last updated April 2, 2021. Today is April 8, 2021.

Don't like the rules (actually the "laws"), then flout them. Your right.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... as if politics should be dictating a (global) public health matter.
> 
> From post #4492 Coronavirus (COVID-19) or directly from CDC's site: COVID-19 in Canada - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC - last updated April 2, 2021. Today is April 8, 2021.
> 
> Don't like the rules (actually the "laws"), then flout them. Your right.


Just for your information I have not broken any laws . Clearly the CDC sees Canada as a dangerous hotspot. Their guidance for Canada seems to be at odds with their own stated policies in the same link. I suppose that mess in Canada has a lot to do with our problems securing vaccines and getting people vaccinated.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Just for your information I have not broken any laws .


 ... I didn't say you did but if you wish to or continue wailing.



> Clearly the CDC sees Canada as a dangerous hotspot. Their guidance for Canada seems to be at odds with their own stated policies in the same link.


 ... yep, see your statement that follows:



> I suppose that mess in Canada has a lot to do with *our problems securing vaccines* and getting people vaccinated.


 ... well, your new leader don't seem be that helpful (to Canadians). Your previous leader was a total-screwup = disaster.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

The Americans will save Canada from our own vaccine ineptitude. Once they are finished or at least have enough supply to finish, Americans will prioritize some level of supply to Canada and Mexico such that the land border can more freely open, at least to those citizens. And then they will move on to supporting whatever sort of vaccine international policy agenda they best determine, likely to country China and Russia's influence in other parts of the world.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

The way so many Covid-deniers and travel cheats have been ignoring travel advisories, complaining and skipping the 3-day hotel test stay, you'd think there never were any border closures.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Tostig said:


> The way so many Covid-deniers and travel cheats have been ignoring travel advisories, complaining and skipping the 3-day hotel test stay, you'd think there never were any border closures.


no one is denying covid certainly not me. I got Amy second shot of Moderna in February. Would I be doing that if I was a denier? A person entering by a land crossing isn't a cheater if he is following the law and the regulations. In a free and democratic society conducting one's activities in the most efficient and lawful way isn't being a cheater.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... I didn't say you did but if you wish to or continue wailing.
> 
> ... yep, see your statement that follows:
> 
> ... well, your new leader don't seem be that helpful (to Canadians). Your previous leader was a total-screwup = disaster.


I assume you think O'Tool is my leader. That is news to me. Even if he was did he have any control or say in respect to vaccine procurement? I think the recent AG's report speaks for itself. She gave the government and A for Monday morning quarterbacking ad a F for anticipation and foresight, I guess Trudeau had some foresight when he bet our limited resources on developing and securing a vaccine from communist China.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

zinfit said:


> I assume you think O'Tool is my leader. * That is news to me.*


 ... obviously as that's what you "assumed". If you read my post slooowwwly, I mentioned "new" leader and then "previous" leader. So which country was I referring to? Besides, you're registered in the USA on this forum and lives somewhere in Texas. So assumably you're an American or possibly a dual citizen so which country leaders would you think I'm referring to in my post?



> Even if he was did he have any control or say in respect to vaccine procurement?


 .. that's a whole different discussion. My take is our (Canada's) procurement is "inept" from day-one, even Justin gives himself a pat in the back in this department.



> I think the recent AG's report speaks for itself.


 ... reporting of "events" was done in hindsight. And now the question "so what's next?" Do you think anything will improve? That report is nothing but a waste of taxpayers' $$$, as usual.



> She gave the government and A for Monday morning quarterbacking ad a F for anticipation and foresight


, ... obviously. See (1-line) above comment.



> I guess Trudeau had some foresight when he bet our limited resources on developing and securing a vaccine from communist China.


 ... that's a laughable ...don't get me started. Again, typical competency of politics-play (aka BS) in this area.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Beaver101 said:


> ... as if politics should be dictating a (global) public health matter.
> 
> From post #4492 Coronavirus (COVID-19) or directly from CDC's site: COVID-19 in Canada - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC - last updated April 2, 2021. Today is April 8, 2021.
> 
> Don't like the rules (actually the "laws"), then flout them. Your right.


Interesting. It seems like a big reversal now countries like the USA see Canada as a covid mess and are issuing very high risk notices of travelling to Canada. I can see that the possibility of reopening borders is a long ways away. The three variants taking over in Canada and are bumbling vaccination program has created a witches brew. It is hard to be optimistic. The positive thing might be the US completing their vaccinations by June 1 and that will free up about 5 million doses per day for other counties. If Canada could get a good chunk of this supply we could get a handle on things by July or August?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Interesting. It seems like a big reversal now countries like the USA see Canada as a covid mess and are issuing very high risk notices of travelling to Canada. I can see that the possibility of reopening borders is a long ways away.


They issued this ages ago and it is only now bubbling through the media. The number of countries they consider to be "very high covid risk" far outweighs the number they consider to be low. 

I do think we should have mostly everyone with one shot by early summer time here and if we can then get excess from the US after that, we might be able to finish off our second shots by early fall. Hopefully!


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

doctrine said:


> The Americans will save Canada from our own vaccine ineptitude. Once they are finished or at least have enough supply to finish, Americans will prioritize some level of supply to Canada and Mexico such that the land border can more freely open, at least to those citizens. And then they will move on to supporting whatever sort of vaccine international policy agenda they best determine, likely to country China and Russia's influence in other parts of the world.


You mean the vaccine we have signed contracts for American firms to supply? They aren't doing us a favour. They stiffed us.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

zinfit said:


> Interesting. It seems like a big reversal now countries like the USA see Canada as a covid mess and are issuing very high risk notices of travelling to Canada. I can see that the possibility of reopening borders is a long ways away. The three variants taking over in Canada and are bumbling vaccination program has created a witches brew. It is hard to be optimistic. The positive thing might be the US completing their vaccinations by June 1 and that will free up about 5 million doses per day for other counties. If Canada could get a good chunk of this supply we could get a handle on things by July or August?


Trudeau mentioned today that Canada will be getting 45M doses by end of June. That's probably enough to fully vaccinate (both doses) all willing adults.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The US is re-opening far too early. John Hopkins data used here shows many US states with climbing covid cases and I would not be surprised to see those states opening too quickly will see another rise in active covid cases.

Canada seems destined to follow the same misguided policy as we already have given the recent wave of new infections. We will re-open again before most people have had the opportunity for their first shot by end of June when everyone who wants a shot will have had the opportunity to get one (45M? doses by end of June). We were terribly late in getting going and are now suffering needlessly with this new wave due to government incompetence. I might even have my 2nd shot by the end of June.

That all said, I see a gradual easing of border controls, e.g. vaccinated entrants only needing to show a negative PCR test upon arrival, much like the USA is already doing based on CDC guidance. Everyone else still needs to quarantine in some way.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Not sure how they will authenticate vaccine receipts. do they all the same across the country......I doubt it.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

There are many sma


Money172375 said:


> Not sure how they will authenticate vaccine receipts. do they all the same across the country......I doubt it.


There are some tech companies working on a process to get verified certicates and a standardized. system. It will happen Google and Microsoft will solve this issue. In the US it shouldn't be hard .when a person is fully vaccinated they get a card providing full details.Each state has a record of every vaccination and will provide that record to the vaccinated person and other relevant third parties.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I have a CDC vax card...just paper but it looks like thats all the US will use.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Eder said:


> I have a CDC vax card...just paper but it looks like thats all the US will use.


It will be easy to make fake copies of this card. I think eventually you will need a copy of your state vaccination registration.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

zinfit said:


> It will be easy to make fake copies of this card. I think eventually you will need a copy of your state vaccination registration.


 What would a Canadian have for documentation? does each province keep a record of each vaccination? when you receive a jab in Canada do you get a card or certificate?


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

zinfit said:


> What would a Canadian have for documentation? does each province keep a record of each vaccination? when you receive a jab in Canada do you get a card or certificate?


I think my parents got an email receipt.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

If they need your health card one would think the vaccination details went into a data basis so there should be a record?


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

andrewf said:


> You mean the vaccine we have signed contracts for American firms to supply? They aren't doing us a favour. They stiffed us.


I'm sure this has been hashed out, but to say that we couldn't have done on procuring vaccines is too easy. You can't blame the Americans for being selfish, but I don't think we seriously considered playing hardball to get more access. They are literally sitting on 40 million AZ vaccines that may never be used. If we were even another month ahead of this third wave, many deaths may have been prevented - the death rate is now just starting to pick up on schedule. It may have taken some hard ball tactics or maybe some bruises, but worth it if you look where the UK, USA, and Israel are sitting. Canada, like most of the EU, has not handled the pandemic well at all. Again, the Americans are likely to come to the rescue.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

doctrine said:


> I'm sure this has been hashed out, but to say that we couldn't have done on procuring vaccines is too easy. You can't blame the Americans for being selfish, but I don't think we seriously considered playing hardball to get more access. They are literally sitting on 40 million AZ vaccines that may never be used. If we were even another month ahead of this third wave, many deaths may have been prevented - the death rate is now just starting to pick up on schedule. It may have taken some hard ball tactics or maybe some bruises, but worth it if you look where the UK, USA, and Israel are sitting. Canada, like most of the EU, has not handled the pandemic well at all. Again, the Americans are likely to come to the rescue.


Partly right. Even if we could access the US supply of AZ we couldn't really use it given our current restrictions on its use. Come June we should be able to get big supplies of Moderna and Pfizer from the US. Hopefully by July Canada has turned the corner.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

doctrine said:


> I'm sure this has been hashed out, but to say that we couldn't have done on procuring vaccines is too easy. You can't blame the Americans for being selfish, but I don't think we seriously considered playing hardball to get more access. They are literally sitting on 40 million AZ vaccines that may never be used. If we were even another month ahead of this third wave, many deaths may have been prevented - the death rate is now just starting to pick up on schedule. It may have taken some hard ball tactics or maybe some bruises, but worth it if you look where the UK, USA, and Israel are sitting. Canada, like most of the EU, has not handled the pandemic well at all. Again, the Americans are likely to come to the rescue.


What hardball could Canada have played? Shut off power exports to the US (they're just "down for maintenance")?


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

andrewf said:


> What hardball could Canada have played? Shut off power exports to the US (they're just "down for maintenance")?


How much did anyone even try, other than asking politely? We've put more pressure on the EU to ensure we don't get stifled on Pfizer. We are now in the predictable position where Canada's unvaccinated masses are more of a risk to the United States than their own people and virtual lack of restrictions. We're the reason the border can't be opened sooner.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

doctrine said:


> How much did anyone even try, other than asking politely? We've put more pressure on the EU to ensure we don't get stifled on Pfizer. We are now in the predictable position where Canada's unvaccinated masses are more of a risk to the United States than their own people and virtual lack of restrictions. We're the reason the border can't be opened sooner.


Why out of all the billions of people waiting for vaccines should the US sidestep their own people in order to ship vaccines to Canada? We don't need more AZ as we haven't got much use for it given the current restrictions and negative publicity . Canada invested its vaccine development money with the Chinese. It didn't put a dime into the development of the vaccines by JNJ ,Pfizer and Moderna. We could have done what Israel did . Pay Pfizer a premium price and to provide detailed ongoing data on the vaccination of every person. Clearly we didn't choose that option. If we are fortunate the US will have a large surplus of vaccines come June and we will obtain a generous supply .That is only 6 weeks away.


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