# When does one actually 'Get There"?



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I just have to ask if any one feels like they have really become financially secure and can loosen up a little, and when does that come? Logically, I know we are doing okay financially. We paid off our home last year, will have our vacation property paid off early next year, and hit a network in the 7 figures in our early/mid thirties. However, I feel like I am always planning for the future and saving, and really not doing enough. 

It seems like once we hit one goal, another comes up. Here’s what I mean, first our goal was to pay off our mortgage, we did that, and really just transferred the payments onto our RRSPs, and vacation property. We will pay off that mortgage next year, and are already planning to put that towards maxing rrsps. I will have my RRSP’s maxed in Feb of next year, and the extra payments will just be going into more savings for when I make a career change. I feel like we are constantly saving for RRSP, TSFA, RESPs, and then general savings for future vehicle purchases, large maintenance etc. 

I am waiting for the time where we just have extra money, but that always seems to be allocated to something important. I know I am in a position that many want to be in, but yet, I don’t feel as I’ve ‘made it’. Does this feeling ever end? I know I have random thoughts. I am really trying to figure out if it’s just that I have put too high of an expectation on myself, or this is just life. 

I am just wondering if people have goals that once they have met, they actually feel that they have made it there and are content?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

No, because with the passage of time there will always be new clothes, cars, electronic junk, house repairs cropping up. Goals should be thought of more as checkpoints rather than final destinations. The point of saving is to be prepared to handle the aformentioned costs of life. If you just save once and wait for the roof to leak, when it leaks you'll spend all your savings and have no cash for the next event such as car in need of replacement etc. Saving money is part of good life practice rather than a finite goal.


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## MoMoney (Apr 1, 2011)

If you don't have kids, I'd say it's more possible to feel as though you "got there".

With kids it's impossible. You start to think on generational terms, perhaps even beyond your children and their children.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I think even beyond the day to day stuff such as the consumer goods, repairs, maintenance, etc. I know we are very comfortable affording another of those things that we may have to pay for. 

I was thinking more in the terms of MoMoney, is it's really once you have kids, then you never feel secure or set yet? Is it the generational piece? Can one feel secure earlier with kids?

I guess partially why I am asking is that I think that financially we are doing fine. Both my spouse and I make really decent money, no consumer debt, soon no other debt, healthy savings, healthy net worth. Then I think about maybe slowing down, and spending more time at home with the kids. Financially, I know many people do it with a lot less than me, but then, I worry about our finances that there will be some many things we wouldn't be able to do. 

It seems irrationaly at times.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Sure, I think with individual goals once you reach them you can say "I made it there and I'm content." But as you have pointed out, there are always new goals to take their place. What's happening is that with each goal you achieve, you're creating new possibilities that might not have existed before. Many of us don't have the luxury of being able to save for a career change, let alone retirement, but once you pay off the house etc. you start realizing that you could be saving for other goals that you wouldn't even have considered before. It's kind of the flip side of lifestyle inflation: you could call it "savings inflation." The more money you have available, the more (and bigger) goals you can save for. Not everyone has this problem, though ;-)


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Everything you have detailed can be quantified in size and timing.... your salary/pension/cpp&oas and retirement age, loan amts/lengths, special major purchases (amt/timing), cash windfalls (amt/timing). Size and complexion of your current savings. Poke in some rate guesstimates (hi-lo-med) along with a living cost estimate (before&after retirement)..... and Bob's your Uncle.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Our black hole is RESPs for the grandkids. Good news. We have five now! As of 2 weeks ago. Education is expensive and going up.

Most of the other stuff we have under control. Always pay, have cash for current expenses, have an emergency fund.

But I would say that we feel under control as of the last four years.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

I guess it really has to do with financial goals, and life goals - inter-related, but in actuality different.

We are in a similar situation, although a few years earlier. I certainly feel this sentiment asking myself when is it enough? Rather than raising loftier goals as brad describes, we are trying to establish more fruitful goals. Having experiences with our children (not necessarily equal to staying at home), exploring new things about ourselves etc.

I think it is natural to always have this 'yearning' for more feeling, it is whether you decide to make those goals purely financial, or somehow more meaningful. I also think the feeling that you need more will continue until and even after your children have left the nest. After all, as a parent, you want to ensure safety, security and a decent life for you children. Money presumably can provide many of those things, but make sure they are getting more meaningful parenting rather than the next nice toy etc.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Your out pacing your investments?caught in a flat maket(all your savings and multiple yrs of rrsp/tfsa/resp)are just ''floating"(and you likely were hit hard in 08,you regained but have'nt growen) if were lucky a multi-year bull market wil spike your networth(maybe in 2,3,5,7 yrs?.Just a guess?You have'nt seen your rewards since the crash?everybody for the last few yrs are lucky just to make 1% in these wild times.Victim of circumstance.

I read somewhere that it finally changes for people with a networth of 5 million +(they ease up,if there living in middle/uper middle class lifestyles)Pa you had/have a networth of over a million by your mid thirties,you are in the 1 %.....0.1% for the demo under 35.....remember the average canadian in that demo has a networth of about 8k(excluding house,might be as low as 5k and that might incl a car?)average canadians would sh%t to hear you worrying.Relax-you got 40-50 yrs ahead of you.Your a over achiever and type A-comes with the territory-that's why you are where you are right now already.Just m.o....it's the downside(always wanting more)not being about to realize objectively.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Plugging Along we sound very familiar in this sense! I don't think I'll feel comfortable until I have everything paid off and have enough of a nest egg that can handle life surprises, economic uncertainties, return fluctuations, etc and can provide a more than adequate monthly income. It's frustrating as I know I am doing well compared to my peers but in the grand scheme of things I feel poor because I am not financially free and that will take decades to get to  

...unless I win the lottery.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

brad said:


> Sure, I think with individual goals once you reach them you can say "I made it there and I'm content." But as you have pointed out, there are always new goals to take their place. What's happening is that with each goal you achieve, you're creating new possibilities that might not have existed before. Many of us don't have the luxury of being able to save for a career change, let alone retirement, but once you pay off the house etc. you start realizing that you could be saving for other goals that you wouldn't even have considered before. It's kind of the flip side of lifestyle inflation: you could call it "savings inflation." The more money you have available, the more (and bigger) goals you can save for. Not everyone has this problem, though ;-)


Great comment.

I was also going to mention about lifestyle inflation (ie "goal inflation"). 

In your case, maybe you have to consider your non-financial goals as well and see if some of them have priority over the financial ones. Ie Is doing a career change/reduction more important than paying off all your mortgages sooner?


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

“Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?” -- Robert Browning


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Great comments everyone. I think I am starting to realize a few things. Yes, I am a big type A, and have hit my goals because of that. For me, I think I will have to try and balance more on the non financial side, and more importantly, remember about the financial experiences. I think I find finances 'easier' as its a concrete measure, that has a number that is logical. With life, it is not always like that, and that often the biggest rewards are not the number, but rather the experiences and quality of them. 



kcowan said:


> Our black hole is RESPs for the grandkids. Good news. We have five now! As of 2 weeks ago. Education is expensive and going up.
> 
> Most of the other stuff we have under control. Always pay, have cash for current expenses, have an emergency fund.
> 
> But I would say that we feel under control as of the last four years.


Yikes... I didn't even think of my grandkids future :hopelessness: (my kids are only 3 & 6). You have just solidified my point that for me, I think I will never have that total security of being there, but I will have to remember to enjoy the journey there. 



donald said:


> Your out pacing your investments?caught in a flat maket(all your savings and multiple yrs of rrsp/tfsa/resp)are just ''floating"(and you likely were hit hard in 08,you regained but have'nt growen) if were lucky a multi-year bull market wil spike your networth(maybe in 2,3,5,7 yrs?.Just a guess?You have'nt seen your rewards since the crash?everybody for the last few yrs are lucky just to make 1% in these wild times.Victim of circumstance.
> 
> I read somewhere that it finally changes for people with a networth of 5 million +(they ease up,if there living in middle/uper middle class lifestyles)Pa you had/have a networth of over a million by your mid thirties,you are in the 1 %.....0.1% for the demo under 35.....remember the average canadian in that demo has a networth of about 8k(excluding house,might be as low as 5k and that might incl a car?)average canadians would sh%t to hear you worrying.Relax-you got 40-50 yrs ahead of you.Your a over achiever and type A-comes with the territory-that's why you are where you are right now already.Just m.o....it's the downside(always wanting more)not being about to realize objectively.


I've always been really simple in my investments, hence why you don't see alot of advice from me in picks. I have just invested regularly. Unfortunately, I did not do so well in 2008, as I went on mat leave, just as my spouse got laid off. We went down to about 18% of our income, and stopped investing for the whole year, until we rebounded. To be honest, I don't 'feel' my networth. I know it's a great number relative to my peers, but it never seems like I get the content feelilng. 

Funny you brought up the $5 mil mark. That's what other close people I know thought, and when they hit it, they didn't think it was enough. That's actually what I was thinking would be enough, but now I am slowly thinking that I will not be content where I am. 




Young&Ambitious said:


> Plugging Along we sound very familiar in this sense! I don't think I'll feel comfortable until I have everything paid off and have enough of a nest egg that can handle life surprises, economic uncertainties, return fluctuations, etc and can provide a more than adequate monthly income. It's frustrating as I know I am doing well compared to my peers but in the grand scheme of things I feel poor because I am not financially free and that will take decades to get to
> 
> ...unless I win the lottery.


That's exactly what I think. But then I wonder if even when I can have enough to provide my monthly income, will I just want more income to provide with as Kowan said the grandkids stuff. 



MoneyGal said:


> “Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?” -- Robert Browning



I love this quote. This is something I've always tried to live by.

I have now decided that I will be content with not ever being content, but will make sure that I am enjoying my journey the whole time, and not to just worry about the future. 

Now I am curious how many of us here are type A's ? =)


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> I have now decided that I will be content with not ever being content, but will make sure that I am enjoying my journey the whole time, and not to just worry about the future.


Way back in the 1700s, the haiku master Bashō wrote this famous poem:

Even in Kyoto
Hearing the cuckoos cry
I long for Kyoto

This translation is by the poet Robert Hass, who interpreted it this way: "To defend ourselves against reality, we rehabilitate desire instantly to put ourselves back in our real condition, which is permanent longing." In other words, even when we've arrived, we still want to "get there."

I think it's healthy to remain unsatisfied and to keep striving to reach new goals, as long as you give yourself credit and take at least some satisfaction in your achievements.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I get what you are saying plugging along and I can only speak for myself but both my husband and i recently had discussion about the fact we have $xxx,xxx in RSP ,close to $50,000 in our TFSA and very large balances in non registered and GIC accounts.Our Select Service account we were use to having $20,000 or so in account but something always comes up so we made the decision about 7 weeks ago when a GIC renewed to increase our Select Service to about $90,000 and not 'invest' the money. Of course our Bank tells us every time we go in we should move that money out but Seeing $100,000 on the bank slip when i take out our weekly cash allowance is more comforting to me than having everything in stocks , registered accounts and locked in products.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Planning and worrying never ends while you are alive. It does get easier as you go along. Paying off your mortgage and owning your house free and clear must have lifted a burden off your shoulders. Having enough investments, or insurance, so that your family is secure is another burden lifted.

At this point you should be able to breathe easily and face the future with a certain measure of confidence that was not possible when you first started out and had everything to learn.

It helps if you do a financial statement annually if not more frequently. Sometimes it seems we are slogging away not making any progress but when we look back it is surprising how far we have come, and how much we have accomplished.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Young&Ambitious said:


> Plugging Along we sound very familiar in this sense! I don't think I'll feel comfortable until I have everything paid off and have enough of a nest egg that can handle life surprises, economic uncertainties, return fluctuations, etc and can provide a more than adequate monthly income. It's frustrating as I know I am doing well compared to my peers but in the grand scheme of things I feel poor because I am not financially free and that will take decades to get to
> 
> ...unless I win the lottery.


I would like to say that I feel the same as you just wrote. I think this comes from a money disease of underspending, over saving, etc. 

Like you said we are way above our peers but then again I feel like we are just getting by. lol


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I think that is normal. It is just the way some are wired to always set little goals for ourselves. Just don't let the goals stress you out, make them little challenges. It makes life interesting and fun.

I am sure at some point, many years from now, when you decide to retire, it will all come together and you will have that feeling of content, and safety, and will be very happy that you lived your life they way you did.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I think pa should realize NOW!that it has all come together!!Pa should feel content,safe,happy right now in the present!Pa think about it.
-Healthy
-fully funded investments
-house paid off
-VACATION house almost paid off
-2 kids,and married
-Under 40!(your still between 1st and second base....ask a 55yr old)
-Obviously hard work!look at what you've done!don't be 2 hard on yourself....take a moment.Your living the GOOD LIFE pa.Maybe work toward some spirtual goals along side finacial one's.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

My situation (age, home and rec property paid off, net worth etc) is similar to Plugging Along. We don't have any kids though. For me its has come to a point where I have decided that I value my time over the continued accumulation of wealth. If my wife and I were to continue on our current savings path for another 15 years, we could be giving the CMF high rollers (Square Root, I'm lookin' at you!) a run for their money. :tongue-new: 

I am likely to quit work in the next few years (42nd birthday?) , while my wife (who actually loves her job) wants to keep working for perhaps another ten, though I don't think she needs to. It boils down to the fact that we would rather enjoy somewhat diminished assets while we are young, than work ourselves to the bone into our 50's and 60's to amass a fortune we very likely couldn't spend... and with no offspring to inherit... it just doesn't make sense to us to keep going any longer than is necessary. 

I feel as though we are in the home stretch - lets say, "almost there".


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

I have a slightly different perspective. We are not quite as far along financially, but I can see all those goals as signposts on the longer road. Since I'm comfortable with where we are headed and I know that obligations are being met and we are planning for the future, I'm content. It has taken the better part of a couple years to change my mindset but I think it is part of the overused cliche, "Life is a journey." In that respect I worry a lot less about the future because I'm confident in both our plan and our ability to adapt to curveballs. It doesn't mean not saving, just not seeing hitting a certain dollar amount as a goal in and of itself. I get to spend more time in the present this way and I think it has been really beneficial for me and my family.

If and when I choose to change to slow down or change focus I'll have more than a lot of people and less than a lot of people but probably more than enough for my family (and their families in the case of future grandkids, even though we are at 5, 3 and 2 months). I just have no idea what that number is, so I don't spend time aiming to get that number, I just enjoy the ride and make what I hope are good choices along the way.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

By fluke of living in West Vancouver, I have several multi-millionaire neighbours. By our standards, they all have goalposts that have moved up as they achieved more. One of them said to us that $10 million is not much by today's standards!

BTW the grandkids RESPs is a discretionary expense. We deposit the maximum allowed to get the 40% match.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Planning and worrying never ends while you are alive. It does get easier as you go along. Paying off your mortgage and owning your house free and clear must have lifted a burden off your shoulders. Having enough investments, or insurance, so that your family is secure is another burden lifted.
> 
> At this point you should be able to breathe easily and face the future with a certain measure of confidence that was not possible when you first started out and had everything to learn.
> 
> It helps if you do a financial statement annually if not more frequently. Sometimes it seems we are slogging away not making any progress but when we look back it is surprising how far we have come, and how much we have accomplished.


Here's the thing, yes I felt a burden lifted when we paid of our mortgage last year, however, my issue was is was just a brief feeling of relief. Almost immediately, the mortgage payments were reallocated somewhere else. We did take a little celebration and buy a hot tub as our splurge. 

I have had confidence in myself and in my plans for the future, and know I am making progress. I guess I just wasn't feeling it. My financial statements though updated, don't actually feel 'real', nor do I feel that they reflect the 'good life' as they should. I know there are many others that would be very content where we are, but it just seem like it's ever enough. I don't worry that I will be able to handle anything that comes our way, but I feel that I am constantly planning for it. 



donald said:


> I think pa should realize NOW!that it has all come together!!Pa should feel content,safe,happy right now in the present!Pa think about it.
> -Healthy
> -fully funded investments
> -house paid off
> ...


This is EXACTLY what my issue is. I am very grateful for the life that I have, and know how fortunate I truly am. I in my mind I do know I have a good life, and am pretty happy, but I just don't feel as if I LIVING the good life. I don't know if that makes sense. I am free from having to worry about where the bills are being paid from and the future, but yet, I am still always thinking about the future and next goal. Maybe I just expected the good life to be more? My children were actually my spritual awakening. Prior to them, I was just focused on my career and finances, they have become the reason for many things. 




kcowan said:


> By fluke of living in West Vancouver, I have several multi-millionaire neighbours. By our standards, they all have goalposts that have moved up as they achieved more. One of them said to us that $10 million is not much by today's standards!
> 
> BTW the grandkids RESPs is a discretionary expense. We deposit the maximum allowed to get the 40% match.


I am hoping that when I make the $5mil mark, or even the $10 mil mark, I will be satisfied. Who knows. I know the grandkids RESPs are discretionary, as are many of the other things that we have choosen to fund, I think that's where I get stuck, I know I got the mandatory stuff handle, I think I just want it all for my family.


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

The headline of an adjacent thread states.... "75% of all Americans near retirement have less than $30,000 saved" Kids.... can we all pronounce "DISCONNECT?"


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Some perceptive posts. i think for most people " getting there" is a process rather than an actual destination. Usually you gradually realize that you are reaching financial independence (FI). I think often you realize you are close to FI when you get close to retirement. I think in our case it was in my early 50's after we rebuilt our finances after a very expensive divorce. FI is a state of mind rather than an actual net worth. For each person it manifests in a different way. Somebody might think he needs $30mm to retire(a friend of mine with expensive tastes) while others can easily do it with CPP and OAS. Without the feeling of security that comes with FI it isn't as much fun as it should be. I think it may be easier to relax once you are close to retirement. This raises an issue if you are as young as PA.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> This is EXACTLY what my issue is. I am very grateful for the life that I have, and know how fortunate I truly am. I in my mind I do know I have a good life, and am pretty happy, but I just don't feel as if I LIVING the good life. I don't know if that makes sense. I am free from having to worry about where the bills are being paid from and the future, but yet, I am still always thinking about the future and next goal. Maybe I just expected the good life to be more? My children were actually my spritual awakening. Prior to them, I was just focused on my career and finances, they have become the reason for many things.


It is all a frame of mind. Instead of trying to answer the question: "I will be happy when or if..." instead answer the question: "I am happy now because....".

Striving for goals is built in to our psyche so it is difficult to so I am OK now while still striving. Yet that is the secret.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

I agree with many of the great posts above. Interestingly, I have found that the number comes down as one gets closer to retirement. The realization that many of the luxuries that seem like needs when younger are really not adding any value to one's life and that with age comes that wisdom. Definitely, children throw a wrench into things but it seems that there is pretty good evidence that one's children are happier if they are allowed to find their own way and spared so-called 'economic out-patient care'.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Some really great insights everyone. Please don't get me wrong, I know I am extremely blessed and thankful for the life. Have. Also am very happy with my current life. I guess really I had a mismatch of expectations I terms of what I have accomplished and what I 'feel'. This has given me a reminder that it's not just the number that gives you the feeling, but weren't you enter a certain mind set tha. Am beginning to believe will only come as. Am nearing a different stage in life. Right now, while my kids are young, and I have their mouths to feed and their p bringing to fund, I will probably never be 100percent secure as little people bring much uncertainties to life. I will just be content that my current methods seem to work, and I will be able to handle life's little curve balls.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

steve41 said:


> The headline of an adjacent thread states.... "75% of all Americans near retirement have less than $30,000 saved" Kids.... can we all pronounce "DISCONNECT?"


People who worry about money have it, people who don't worry blow it.What a conundrum. Would you rather be rich and worried or poor and happy? I would settle for being well off and sort of moody.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^ Can't I be rich and ignorant... I hear ignorant is a bliss


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Groucho Marx was a worrier. Every time he got some money saved up he bought an annuity. He was always aware that in show business, you can become a has been overnight if the public taste changes, or if you are prevented from working by illness or injury. He never felt successful or secure.

His brother Chico was the opposite. Groucho once said something to the effect of "it doesn't bother me that Chico spends all his time in Las Vegas, chasing girls and gambling.It doesn't bother me that he hangs out with gamblers, lowlifes and gangsters. It doesn't bother me that he never saves a penny and is deep in debt. What bothers me is that he sleeps better than I do."


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> ^ Can't I be rich and ignorant... I hear ignorant is a bliss


You don't have to be smart to be rich.

My favorite example is the guy who went to his 10th high school reunion. The biggest surprise was the class loser. He showed up in a Ferrari wearing an Armani suit, Rolex watch, with a beautiful blonde on his arm. Everyone was astonished. How did he become so successful? If anyone was Least Likely to Succeed it was this guy.

Finally one of his old classmates asked what he was doing these days?

"Oh, haven't you seen my infomercials on TV? I buy these kitchen gadgets from China for $4.95 and sell them for $49.95. And let me tell you, that 10% profit sure adds up".

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> Can't I be rich and ignorant... I hear ignorant is a bliss


 OK.... I couldn't let this pass. Was that a joke, in which case, it is rather clever. If not, then aarrgghh.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^Yes, it was a joke, thank you for calling me clever... I am trying to be rich, ignorant, clever and blissful , it doesn't always work though


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## SlowandSteady60 (Feb 19, 2012)

First of all I want to say congratulations on where you are in your life financially. It is a major accomplishment to be sitting in such a position. By my guesstimates, financially, you are already "there". I read a book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad when I first started learning about the financial world and in it he said that as people accumulate wealth, they go through two major phases. Fear and Greed. The latter of the two is what drives us to set goals, work harder than most and accomplish those goals. Once they are accomplished, the first one sets in. We get fearful because we don't feel we have enough or something is going to knock us back to where we started. So greed takes over again, and we start the cycle over again. Don't take this wrong, I'm not saying you are greedy. My bet is that you are already "there" but haven't learned how to "shut it down", kick back and enjoy life. I don't have near what you have financially, but I do have good family and friends around me and we take lots of family vacations with our boys(over twenty yrs old) because time with them is the richest thing I can think of. When it's time to go, it doesn't matter how much money you have, it's how you spent your time here. I feel I'm already "there" but I still have goals that I try to achieve. It's the way we are.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> You don't have to be smart to be rich.
> 
> Ferrari wearing an Armani suit, Rolex watch, with a beautiful blonde on his arm.


I feel funny that this means so little to me now. It's the one who spend his time scoping out the room and choosing his target carefully that intrigues me usually. 

My definition of getting there, is to be able to bring a company from non existent to one with 25% profit margin that is almost linearly scalable. That's when I know that I will never be hungry again in my life and be able to say FU to any choices I do not wish to make.

Someone remind me I said this in 2022.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

My definition of getting there, is to be able to bring a company from non existent to one with 25% profit margin that is almost linearly scalable. That's when I know that I will never be hungry again in my life and be able to say FU to any choices I do not wish to make.

Ditto...


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> Here's the thing, yes I felt a burden lifted when we paid of our mortgage last year, however, my issue was is was just a brief feeling of relief. Almost immediately, the mortgage payments were reallocated somewhere else. We did take a little celebration and buy a hot tub as our splurge.
> 
> I have had confidence in myself and in my plans for the future, and know I am making progress. I guess I just wasn't feeling it. My financial statements though updated, don't actually feel 'real', nor do I feel that they reflect the 'good life' as they should. I know there are many others that would be very content where we are, but it just seem like it's ever enough. I don't worry that I will be able to handle anything that comes our way, but I feel that I am constantly planning for it.
> 
> ...


Give your family the gift of your time. Hopefully they value that more than the money. We have four year old twins and we are constantly trying to keep mommy from working so much. Why she needs to is beyond us.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^. I actually did choose to 'slow down' after our second was born. I have moved to a company which had less growth and promotion potential in exchange for more time with my kids. To be honest, this is really really challenging for me as I am a strong type A person who is really drive and ambitious. I have turned down higher paying offered and promotions over the last couple of years, and though I know it gives me more time with my kids, this is really difficult each time.

Why your wife 'needs' to work may not have anything to do with the financial, but much the personal aspect. For me, I lived my work before kids, it gives me a sense of accomplishment. I have worked my butt off to get where I am, and to establish my reputation. I can't exactly take 6 or 7 years off and come right back where I started. 

How many guys here would be really okay staying at home full under the same circumstance?


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

My experience has been most guys are working so they spend less time at home. The perfect escape. Sorry honey, have to work late....

For me there is nothing more important than my family. I still give to myself, yet that definition has changed to include them as much as possible. Working just interrupts the whole thing.

Sense of accomplishment can be had in many ways. Taking risk and validating yourself in other ways can be very rewarding. The freedom and choices available are priceless.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Plugging Along said:


> How many guys here would be really okay staying at home full under the same circumstance?


I would love to stay home full time.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Me too.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I used the active parenthood trick. Although my time with kids was limited, it was quality time, not watching TV. I know this is harder now with all their devices, but even when I did it, many of my peers had abdicated the job to their spouses.

(In fact, it became a source of friction when the kids were teenagers, because spouse and I disagreed on priorities and never resolved it.)


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> I would love to stay home full time.


Yeah me too. Even better is if the woman is bringing home the bacon. Since I am really good at multiplying money, but not as good at adding money.


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## Square Root (Jan 30, 2010)

Causalien said:


> Yeah me too. Even better is if the woman is bringing home the bacon. Since I am really good at multiplying money, but not as good at adding money.


i am sure you would be a heck of a catch.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I think I needed to marry a man who wanted to kept. Too late now.


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

I'm pretty close to becoming a kept man. My wife has no issues with it at all.


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

My wife makes more than me, so I'm kept too. She's also worth more


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

Much better than being kept by a job. Save as hard as you can. It works. Leave no expense untouched...


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

My husband would go nuts staying at home. He lacks a certain patience, and doesn't quite understand why 3 and 6 yr olds don't have the same logic as adults.

Also, tough he won't really admit it, I think it does bruise his ego a little whenever I get a big promotion. It seems like all of a sudden he needs to find something better. So he is not really a kept kind of guy. 

I guess our it difference is that we both really love our jobs, and don't see it as being stuck in a job.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Square Root said:


> i am sure you would be a heck of a catch.


The jury's still out there, but I am sure my abilities will come in handy to any lady in white-tie events, which is my most valuable asset to anyone who wants to keep me as a domesticated Stay at home bum.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

To the OP,

I'm curious. How did you manage to accumulate such wealth with 2 kids? I only ask because nothing short of an inheritance could I hope to accumulate that kind of wealth before 40. I too have a high salary, my own business, 2 kids and began paying off debt and investing as soon as I finished Post Secondary school a decade ago. But unless something very unpredictable happens, it will take me more time than when I'm 40 to accumulate that kind of wealth...


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## Guigz (Oct 28, 2010)

kork said:


> To the OP,
> 
> I'm curious. How did you manage to accumulate such wealth with 2 kids? I only ask because nothing short of an inheritance could I hope to accumulate that kind of wealth before 40. I too have a high salary, my own business, 2 kids and began paying off debt and investing as soon as I finished Post Secondary school a decade ago. But unless something very unpredictable happens, it will take me more time than when I'm 40 to accumulate that kind of wealth...


Spend less, save more.:encouragement:


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

There are many here mid 40s or younger with kids and +7 figure net worth.It can be many factors, self employed person, professional couple , lottery winner? or maybe they borrowed up to their necks and got rich on RE ,Markets or Tickle me Elmo(WHAT YEAR WAS THAT ANYWAY?LOL)


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

marina628 said:


> There are many here mid 40s or younger with kids and +7 figure net worth.It can be many factors, self employed person, professional couple , lottery winner? or maybe they borrowed up to their necks and got rich on RE ,Markets or Tickle me Elmo(WHAT YEAR WAS THAT ANYWAY?LOL)


I'm only curious because I earn 6 figures, double my mortgage payment (bought first home 7 years ago), Max RRSP's, TFSA's, RESP's and have a nice cushioned emergency fund and savings... But certainly not a million dollars. The OP indicated a hard investment hit in 08 and significant income reduction at around the same time. Further to that, most people when they graduate are struggling with student debt and can't really sock away that kind of money... Now, if my investments grow at 12% a year over the next decade, I'll EASILY be in that category, but I didn't think the past decade has been a gift of growth for most.

Just curious if I've missed something. I'd love to hear how someone got to that net worth at 40 with kids considering I'm already well into a 6-figure yearly income and have 7 years to get there! Wanna make sure I do it right.... If it was luck or situational then that's cool, but if it was hard work and elbow grease, then count me in. I have no problems working hard.

Just goes to show I'm in the right place for inspiration and advice!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

kork said:


> Guigz said:
> 
> 
> > Spend less, save more.:encouragement:
> ...


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## Jon_Snow (May 20, 2009)

Buying a fair bit of Real Estate before the boom, and paying it off quickly, along with steadily rising incomes coupled with a natural tendancy towards frugality is our recipe for "getting there". No kids doesn't hurt the bottom line either. :tongue-new:

I've mentioned it before, but we currently save about 70% of our monthly income. This isn't typical, but our particular life situation is rather unique. The way our lives are structured, we simply cannot help but increase our net worth fairly quickly, just through simple savings every month. If I were a more seasoned investor, we could be doing even better.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

kork said:


> I'm only curious because I earn 6 figures, double my mortgage payment (bought first home 7 years ago), Max RRSP's, TFSA's, RESP's and have a nice cushioned emergency fund and savings... But certainly not a million dollars. The OP indicated a hard investment hit in 08 and significant income reduction at around the same time. Further to that, most people when they graduate are struggling with student debt and can't really sock away that kind of money... Now, if my investments grow at 12% a year over the next decade, I'll EASILY be in that category, but I didn't think the past decade has been a gift of growth for most.
> 
> Just curious if I've missed something. I'd love to hear how someone got to that net worth at 40 with kids considering I'm already well into a 6-figure yearly income and have 7 years to get there! Wanna make sure I do it right.... If it was luck or situational then that's cool, but if it was hard work and elbow grease, then count me in. I have no problems working hard.
> 
> Just goes to show I'm in the right place for inspiration and advice!


There are about 3 cities where if you owned a house 7 years ago till now, you are sure to be a millionaire... and 2 of those 3 cities all have large population. That's a lot of people.


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## kork (Jun 9, 2012)

Thanks for the history lesson PA! It helps provide clarity and gives me insight to plan my own course. Thank-you!


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

PA, the team aspect of your wealth building sounds very heart warming. Made me want to get married.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Definately don't get married to build wealth, and don't have kids...

I do think we were able to do it because we are a couple that both had high earning potential, and are generally on the same page. It's also an advantage that we are both skilled in different areas. He's great as a consultant because he generally does not have a lot of loyalty to a company and is okay leaving for more money. I tend to be a loyal person, and will work with a company for both. That really offsets the risk of each of our plans. We are able to take more risk as a couple because was have a bigger ability to recover from impacts.

Kork - I forgot to mention about kids. They do nothing in terms of financial wealth, but we knew that. What my spouse and I choose was to have kids a little later after we were established. We always made our big decisions such as a house based on one income, so it would also give us a choice to have a parent stay at home. It can't be done for everyone, but I know just being much more established financially before, has helped us over all. I adore my kidlets, but seriously, I am sure I would have been able to retire by 45 if we didn't have them. However, their cost for us is well worth it, and fortunately I like my work.


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## Young&Ambitious (Aug 11, 2010)

Causalien said:


> PA, the team aspect of your wealth building sounds very heart warming. Made me want to get married.


It sounds like you considered it for a minute there; most short lived haha :tongue-new:

This thread reminds me of reading The Wealthy Barber.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

It triggered some type of longing.... but anyway, we work with the hands that life dealt cause there's no other hands to play.


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## skiwest (Oct 24, 2011)

When are you done? When you have enough to stop working. You don't have too but you could at a livestyle you would accept meaning if you need two houses then that isn't counted in net worth.

My number is $1mil plus a buffer which doesn't include RE.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I seen tickle me Elmo go up over $5000 on ebay ,never managed to get one can't imagine getting 100 !RE also made a big part of our assets but now my business exceeded that value.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I never got $5000 for the Tickle me Elmo, the highest I got was just over $200 on the second day, and averaged $100, so not too bad on a $50 'investment'. I did end up with a few I couldn't sell in time, so I gave some to charity (karma), and actually returned a few to the store. 

Now that I think about it, I think that was the best ROI I've had. It was more than 150% in 7 weeks. Hmmmmm... I may be getting out of the stock market...


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

@MrBlackhill Started another thread that remined me about this one. So I thought I would write a message to my past self and others who may feel the same. I wondered if one ever felt like they would feel financially secured. 



Plugging Along said:


> I just have to ask if any one feels like they have really become financially secure and can loosen up a little, and when does that come? Logically, I know we are doing okay financially. We paid off our home last year, will have our vacation property paid off early next year, and hit a network in the 7 figures in our early/mid thirties. However, I feel like I am always planning for the future and saving, and really not doing enough.
> 
> It seems like once we hit one goal, another comes up. Here’s what I mean, first our goal was to pay off our mortgage, we did that, and really just transferred the payments onto our RRSPs, and vacation property. We will pay off that mortgage next year, and are already planning to put that towards maxing rrsps. I will have my RRSP’s maxed in Feb of next year, and the extra payments will just be going into more savings for when I make a career change. I feel like we are constantly saving for RRSP, TSFA, RESPs, and then general savings for future vehicle purchases, large maintenance etc.
> 
> ...


There have been some major events that have really changed my perspective and priorities. Here's what has happened in the last 9 years or so.


I took a promotion in a demand role. I loved the work, but was working up to 80 hour weeks and really missing seeing my kids grow up. After a year, I made the hard decision to go back to my less demand job. The whole experience put taught me that I can't have it all at the same time, and really needed to determine what was my true priority - which is family.
My mom had a stroke shortly, which took us into the whole caring for an aging parent stage in life. Setting her up in a home and helping dad . This gave a new perspective on getting old and what retirement in the later years could look like, and this helped me do some end of the retirement planning.
My mom was terminal (still is), but told she had a few days to live. Planning her funeral and taking care of all those end of life things, was a real eye opener. Bigger eye opener is we are 2 years after we were told she was going to die within days, and she is still fine. Can't wait so see her when COVID is over. This has taught me one needs to take care of business, but its not over until its over, so always live life with hope.
My kid had some severe mental health issues which were made worse with a serious sport head and permanent eye injury. She has recovered from most of the physical stuff, adjusted to the eye damage and still working on her mental health. This takes ALL my extra time and effort. We will spend hundreds of dollar a month for her treatments and anything that will help her.
My spouse has gone through several lay offs, we have had some slightly lower than saving months. He is making less now then he did in 2012 due to a poor economy.
If I stay in my position or company (which I most likely will), I will not see even an increase of living for wages from now until I retire. I in fact took a pay cut, and will be making the same I did since 2015, and will do so until I retire in 2030.

Despite much of this news seemingly negative. Our networth hasn't gone up that much since 2012, maybe doubled but I feel I don't need nearly as much I thought I did. When I first wrote, i thought we would continue to be making large increase in our incomes. We haven't had much if any increases. Our real estate portfolio isn't climbing, it's been a little stagnant here. 

However, I feel much more secure now financially than I did before. I was basing we wanted to do more, but now, other than a few large reno, we don't actually want much on a day to day. We will still travel, especially when COVID is over. As we are getting closer to retirement (9 years), I see that we can have a pretty decent retirement without a lot of current changes. My biggest change in perspective is knowing I have one child who will be heading to university in a few a years, and we will become empty nesters. I am actually willing to work a few more years if I need to, if it means we save a little less now because we are doing bigger trips with the family. 

That's the other part is, based on health things over the last few years, there is nothing more important than my family and our. We started off with a pretty strong foundation earlier, so now we don't grow or save our money as much as we used to. We still put aside enough for our kids education and our retirements, but, I am not longer chasing $5mil or whatever number I had before. We are happier spending more now and having a little less in the future.

I was really stressed about not being able to provide for my grandkids. Seeing how my moms health declined quickly, there are really only a relatively small amount of years from retirement and doing everything to not being able to do much. So we have decided we will help our kids to the graduate level of their education (further if neccessary), but we aren't going worry about helping them with down payment and the grandkids. We are going live our life for ourselves once the kids are done school, and if there is extra of course we will help. However, just changing the perspective that we HAVE to on that burden has really change our views.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Plugging Along said:


> @MrBlackhill Started another thread that remined me about this one. So I thought I would write a message to my past self and others who may feel the same. I wondered if one ever felt like they would feel financially secured.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's for sharing all this @Plugging Along , I really appreciate it.

Our reality is changing very fast and the future is so uncertain. That's why I want to have a well-balanced financial situation between living in the present and saving for the future.


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## Simon Says (Jan 5, 2013)

That feeling of "getting there" is different for everyone.


Am I on track to retire at 55?
Am I meeting my savings goals?
Is my RESP and RRSP maxed out?
Is my TFSA maxed out?
Am I debt free (including mortgage)?
Do I have an emergency fund?
Can I do all of the above without having to work OT?

To me, that's making it. Lofty goals to work for.

Being truly rich means being happy with what you have, regardless of how much it's worth.

_"Money buys everything except_ love, personality, freedom, immortality, silence, peace.” — Carl Sandburg


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## fireseeker (Jul 24, 2017)

Yes, very cool to get such a thoughtful update, @Plugging Along!

I was reading the G&M's financial facelift today. It's a fortyish couple with two kids and a family income similar to @MrBlackhill. They hope to retire in 25 years.
The financial planner dutifully made a series of assumptions and told them what they could expect in 2047.
The whole exercise struck me as nonsense. PA's update illustrates beautifully the limitations of such plans, especially ones that peer so far in the future.

Never mind wealth, we should all hope to earn what PA has -- wisdom.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

When we used to race, we had a saying : _Never celebrate until you have crossed the finish line _

Or in same vein - There'll be time enough for counting, when the dealings done!


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## Landlordnomore (Sep 23, 2019)

My husband and I have always (and still) have the mentality of saving for the rainy days. Somedays, I tell myself that we have saved enough and time to loosen up and yet other mornings, I wake up feeling the need to save more. I think this feeling comes from either a poor/hard childhood and/or self disciplining (to save) for too long. Now, it is very difficult to break the old habit.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> That's for sharing all this @Plugging Along , I really appreciate it.
> 
> Our reality is changing very fast and the future is so uncertain. That's why I want to have a well-balanced financial situation between living in the present and saving for the future.


Looking back at my original post, i Can say no one can really know what will happen in the future so there is not point to worry about planning for everything. when I first wrote that post, I remember my reference more in the ‘feeling’ of being able to loosen up and having ‘made’ it. i was looking at the numbers , our networth, income, ect and wondering at what point will I stop worrying about the future financially. That future didn’t even stop at my retirement or kids education, but the grandkids that we don’t know if my kids will have. 

I can say after the last few trying years of having to really put a lot of mental, emotional, and financial resources in, we have made it. as I have posted its been a tough few years. However, money was the one thing we never worried about. It was there for us to do what we needed while I attended to my family (both young and old). I am starting to figure out that i may have never felt totally secure when I was thinking about financial security in terms of being able to live a more lavish lifestyle. Since there is always a higher bar to go after. when one looks at their wants. What I realized over the last while is we have been able to do whatever we needed.


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

Simon Says said:


> That feeling of "getting there" is different for everyone.
> 
> 
> Am I on track to retire at 55?
> ...


Change the age to 56 for me and it is a yes for all the points. Have we 'gotten there"? It's hard to say but I am pretty confident that we have. I'm going to take the leap of faith in four weeks and let the chips fall where they may. Our needs will be amply taken care of and our wants are not lavish to be sure. But old habits are hard to break as alluded to on here previously and I hope we are able to come to the realization that yes we can loosen up more.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> My mom was terminal (still is), but told she had a few days to live. Planning her funeral and taking care of all those end of life things, was a real eye opener. Bigger eye opener is we are 2 years after we were told she was going to die within days, and she is still fine. Can't wait so see her when COVID is over. This has taught me one needs to take care of business, but its not over until its over, so always live life with hope.


I'm glad to hear that your mom is still fine. I have heard a few stories like this one over the years and it reminds me how inaccurate medical science is ... there's lots of guesswork, and things are always changing.

The only thing that's permanent is death. Otherwise, there is always hope, and always a reason to hope for the best and remain optimistic.

In the early [invisible] months of COVID, a close friend's father died. He was born with a very serious heart condition, and as an infant, was expected to live for a couple of years. Well it turned out that surgeons in Toronto were experimenting with new kinds of infant surgery, and were able to fix his ticker. After the surgery, he was originally expected to live maybe until his teenager years, but it turned out he lived for 60 years instead. He might have lived longer too, but we suspect that COVID killed him... no way to know, since this was just before the pandemic was recognized in Canada.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

What a timely thread bump... I'm almost exactly 10 years behind PA and have just been having the same thoughts over the past 6 month. Can I loosen up a bit and get a little spendier?

In that time we've bought the right house at the right price, stocks are up, NW is >$1M in the new year, and I've continued to be productive and get good bonuses at work.

Have been thinking about a new SUV, been thinking about all new household things for our new house (like furniture, patio stuff, garden tools) plus a few minor/major renos that aren't particularly needed, but wanted.
We've been both fortunate and prudent through our 20s, when 95% have not, and are certainly in an "above average" position financially now.

But then, recently - last 3 months - we're pregnant again! However my wife is ailing all day long with "morning" sickness - She returned to work 1 month ago, but now is laid off again due to COVID shutdowns. This is putting the money we were expecting from her in jeopardy, which was 50k from earnings for 6 months, plus 30k more from EI parental. Those both might be gone now. Myself I am ailing from a mild problem, which I am quite certain is this "long haul covid" they are talking about, but when I started being sick in the fall I got tested and it was negative... I didn't think much of it since it was just a mild cold, but now I'm being worn down by these mild problems. I've had other health issues in recent years too, that were again "mild" so no Dr. gives a crap, but they are all adding up and slowing me down.

So this thread is great - I'm actively expelling all these spendy thought from my head right now. I just bought a used Lawnmower yesterday for <$100 instead of the new one for $500, and will be continuing our frugality and buy-and-sell shopping for household items throughout the summer while my wife is not working.

"Don't count your chickens before they hatch"
"Prides comes before the fall"
...are sayings that come to mind recently.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I'm glad to hear that your mom is still fine. I have heard a few stories like this one over the years and it reminds me how inaccurate medical science is ... there's lots of guesswork, and things are always changing.
> 
> The only thing that's permanent is death. Otherwise, there is always hope, and always a reason to hope for the best and remain optimistic.


We are absolutely stunned at what my mom has lived through, sadly, she doesn't quite mentally understand it all. There's actually even hope that I will see her soon as her home is increasing the number of caregivers, and I am partially vaccinated. I think there are always things unknown, and that's were you take your common sense and what you have learned and tried to apply in new situations. The doctors all recommended to stop her other meds for bp, diabetes, etc, and only treat pain because it would make her more comfortable. Once she got back in the home, I demanded her regular care because I found that her that high bp would be what would cause her final rupture and death. They told me it shouldn't make a difference. I told them that there was no additional risk to take this precaution, and if I was wrong, then the only impact was we paid for the medications and my mom would be annoyed having to take meds. If I was right, then she would live longer.

This is kind of like masks in the early days. We have to think a bit about is it that big of a deal to do the precaution. Sorry that was a just a side note, there are enough COVID threads.

Yes, my mom has given me a different perspective of retirement and planning.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

peterk said:


> What a timely thread bump... I'm almost exactly 10 years behind PA and have just been having the same thoughts over the past 6 month. Can I loosen up a bit and get a little spendier?
> 
> In that time we've bought the right house at the right price, stocks are up, NW is >$1M in the new year, and I've continued to be productive and get good bonuses at work.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on the second! I have followed your posts over the years, and you are very similar to us, but I believe much smarter in your 20's (we were more lucky). I can tell when I was on mat leave with my second, 3 weeks in, my spouse was laid off very unexpectedly (we usually see it coming well in advance). Then my work restructured and if I went back early, they could lay me off on the spot or I could try to be 'safe' and just stay on mat leave. It was a stressful time, our income was 17% of our normal AND we had a live in nanny who we would not lay off (she was the Mary Poppins of nannies). She made more than my EI.

I am sure this is stressful for you. I can tell you that you will be fine. Based on your networth and savings, it will all be fine in the longer term and that's what matters. So I have advice for you if you don't mind:

Don't get too stressed out on the day to day money stuff. Just keep your spending down, which sounds like won't be problem
Instead of cutting out everything, make sure you really evaluate the longer term. We did alot of really good cuts, but I kept the oldest in her private school preschool and the nanny. These were our biggest expenses, but if we cut them they would have the biggest impact in the future at the time.
The one regret I had was I was so worried about money there were a few milestones and events that we didn't almost didn't. I didn't get the expensive baby pictures (I am not one to remember taking pictures) and I have a huge regret for that. We also didn't go on the family reunion with my siblings family. Looking back, these things seemed extravagent, but if I could turn back time, we won't get that opportunity again and they are things that are important to us.

So I would just make sure that even if something expensive comes along, you are in the position that you could probably do it, and it's important to you, then don't let your wife being laid off be the deterrent. I believe personalities like yours and mine tend to be overly responsible with the financial side. 

Again, Congrats! I look forward to reading about your family growing. It brings a nostalgia when you can solve all your kids problems through a big hug.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Thanks PA - Sorry for the late response. Too busy/forgot.

It's funny - exact same - We are going to keep the little guy in daycare for the summer, regardless if she gets called back to work or not (maybe soon?) because he seems to be learning more from the other kids and the daycare lady than he does with us lol. Gives my wife a chance to do some home repair things during the day too now that she's free (been painting up a storm).

We missed the "infant photos" too, because of covid. Had it scheduled for April 2020... I did not care, as I am a bit of an amateur photographer myself and have taken thousands of "nice" baby photos this past year, so I'm glad to have the extra $500 lol. But my wife was still sad...I'm not sure I'll be able to get out of the expensive photos for this next round.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Sheesh - What a whirlwind. 

DW's layoff was short-lived, only 4 week and now she's back at work (Painted 3 rooms during the month off!). She's back on track to getting EI again for the next baby, if only she can make it to 34 weeks pregnant before stopping work. I told her the date, but I won't pressure her about working that long... hopefully she can make it, but if she needs to stop working earlier I don't want her fretting over it.


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

I really resonate with this thread being in the same position now at 32 and having been frugally plugging for sometime. Our net worth now at 600k with no kids and living quite below our means. It struck me with our income around 200k per year we don't really need to be SO frugal all the time. And yet I can't bring myself to spend and you'll see our lifestyle can be described as eating no-name, wardrobe from Costco and packing lunches and sleeping in the car in our once a year vacation.

Perhaps it is a midlife crisis but I am feeling quite jaded for not being able to enjoy the fruits of my labor and sacrifice. Lately I have been watching a large drawdown in my portfolio and finding hard to care. I had realized that in the 12 years since opening my brokerage account money has always flowed in straight from my pay and never once flowed out. Hence like a credit card it feels totally disconnected as money I can never access until 65 anyway. Can I get myself out of this rut and should I just go buy a BMW?


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

twowheeled said:


> I really resonate with this thread being in the same position now at 32 and having been frugally plugging for sometime. Our net worth now at 600k with no kids and living quite below our means. It struck me with our income around 200k per year we don't really need to be SO frugal all the time. And yet I can't bring myself to spend and you'll see our lifestyle can be described as eating no-name, wardrobe from Costco and packing lunches and sleeping in the car in our once a year vacation.
> 
> Perhaps it is a midlife crisis but I am feeling quite jaded for not being able to enjoy the fruits of my labor and sacrifice. Lately I have been watching a large drawdown in my portfolio and finding hard to care. I had realized that in the 12 years since opening my brokerage account money has always flowed in straight from my pay and never once flowed out. Hence like a credit card it feels totally disconnected as money I can never access until 65 anyway. Can I get myself out of this rut and should I just go buy a BMW?


I believe there's a healthy balance to have. The extreme frugal will waste maybe 10 years of their life to be able to retire at 35 and enjoy a life of freedom afterwards. The extreme carpe diem will enjoy all of their years without ever truly be free and struggle at retirement at 65.

I use to be very carpe diem as I told myself that our health decreases over time, so better enjoy those young years to the fullest. But then some healthy people are still super healthy at 90+.

My two questions to myself is : what if I die tomorrow? what if I die at 100?

In both cases, I want to know that I've been happy enjoying the most of my life.

So, to me, it's not about frugality or carpe diem, it's about knowing your priorities. Asking yourself : do I really need this?

To me, for instance, yes, I really do need travel vacations where I don't have to think about money. But, no, I don't need a comfortable car and I don't need to drink beer everytime I'm with friends and family. And my clothes can last for years, I don't care. And I don't need to go to the restaurant every month.

List your priorities in life. Be frugal on what's at the bottom of the list. Be carpe diem on what's at the top of the list.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

By the way, to me, happiness is found through sharing our stories.

So there's nothing materialistic there.

Think about your life as a story and ask yourself what's the story you want to share with your loved ones.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

twowheeled said:


> Perhaps it is a midlife crisis but I am feeling quite jaded for not being able to enjoy the fruits of my labor and sacrifice.
> . . .
> Hence like a credit card it feels totally disconnected as money I can never access until 65 anyway


Who says you can't access your money until you're 65?

You could do what I'm doing. I quit my job to have more free time. That way you get to enjoy some of your time and money (while young) instead of waiting until you're 70 to enjoy all your hard earned money.

I think of it like a sabbatical or extended vacation. I started working again, but am trying to keep my workload light. And I might quit and become unemployed again, maybe.

What's the point of saving up all this money, and investing, if you're never going to use it? Just take some time off from working, and enjoy life a bit. Then resume working later.


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## twowheeled (Jan 15, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Who says you can't access your money until you're 65?
> 
> You could do what I'm doing. I quit my job to have more free time. That way you get to enjoy some of your time and money (while young) instead of waiting until you're 70 to enjoy all your hard earned money.
> 
> ...


Hard habit to break I suppose, penny pinching and aggressive saving helped me get from 0 to something, but it's a much harder to condition myself that packing a lunch everyday isn't going to get me the rest of the way to financial freedom. The thought of withdrawing money from my investments to spend seems so wrong and dirty.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

twowheeled said:


> Hard habit to break I suppose, penny pinching and aggressive saving helped me get from 0 to something, but it's a much harder to condition myself that packing a lunch everyday isn't going to get me the rest of the way to financial freedom. The thought of withdrawing money from my investments to spend seems so wrong and dirty.


If your hesitation is the stability of work, that's a reasonable concern, but jobs can disappear in the blink of an eye anyway.



twowheeled said:


> The thought of withdrawing money from my investments to spend seems so wrong and dirty.


I changed my view on this. Earlier it seemed that way to me as well, but also think to yourself: *why* do you save money?

It's all about delayed use of the money. So the real question is, when do you want to use and enjoy that money? You certainly should keep a lot of it for when you are a senior, but I think it's very logical to also spend and use some of it now (when you're younger).

That being said, I still am working and earning enough income that I don't really withdraw much from my investments. So it seems that I am also having trouble "withdrawing".


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

MrBlackhill said:


> I believe there's a healthy balance to have. The extreme frugal will waste maybe 10 years of their life to be able to retire at 35 and enjoy a life of freedom afterwards. The extreme carpe diem will enjoy all of their years without ever truly be free and struggle at retirement at 65.


The thing is, for those with upper middle class incomes in their 20s and 30s and having generally fortunate lives... living without much restraint all along, as well as retiring very comfortably at 60-65, is a likely reality. Which is mostly the subject of this thread "When does one actually get there".

It's not deciding between having a nice life or living a destitute old age... It's between being a 120k/yr spender and retiring well at 65, a 100k/yr spender and retiring well at 60, an 80k/yr spender and retiring well at 55, or being a 60k/yr spender and retiring comfortably at 45. 
None of these scenarios involve any suffering at all... but perhaps the big spender is gaining some life satisfaction or enrichment for their children that the frugal person is not?


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

peterk said:


> The thing is, for those with upper middle class incomes in their 20s and 30s and having generally fortunate lives... living without much restraint all along, as well as retiring very comfortably at 60-65, is a likely reality. Which is mostly the subject of this thread "When does one actually get there".
> 
> It's not deciding between having a nice life or living a destitute old age... It's between being a 120k/yr spender and retiring well at 65, a 100k/yr spender and retiring well at 60, an 80k/yr spender and retiring well at 55, or being a 60k/yr spender and retiring comfortably at 45.
> None of these scenarios involve any suffering at all... but perhaps the big spender is gaining some life satisfaction or enrichment for their children that the frugal person is not?


I believe it's the same kind of question, it's about finding the right balance between all of the possibilities on the spectrum.

Maybe with a twist. Who truly needs $100k/year once house and kids are paid for? That's luxury. There's a difference between comfortable & happy vs materialistic & luxury.

What I believe to be sad with the FIRE movement and retiring early, is that it points out how people are so much bored at work. Sure, we should aim for FI, but why RE? I'm not talking about those who retire at 55 instead of 65, but those who aim to retire at 45 or even earlier.

We are at work about 1/3 of our awake time. And that means most people totally hate 1/3 of their lives. That's a lot!

And, to answer to all the possibilities you mentioned, when I was making $50k net income (no kids), I was renting and I could travel by plane twice a year and I could go to restaurants weekly and spend on activities. I don't know why you would need more once your house is paid and your kids are adults. But that's only my personal opinion and my personal balance.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

^ Yes I agree. And my examples are just random dollar figures I realize. I was including mortgage payments or rent in my thoughts with those dollar amounts. Which will vary by region and history, how much you paid for your house... There are some 30 year olds living in nice-ish middle class detached houses with 150k left on their mortgage, and some in the same house with 750k (just bought at a different time/different place).


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

twowheeled said:


> Perhaps it is a midlife crisis but I am feeling quite jaded for not being able to enjoy the fruits of my labor and sacrifice. Lately I have been watching a large drawdown in my portfolio and finding hard to care. I had realized that in the 12 years since opening my brokerage account money has always flowed in straight from my pay and never once flowed out. Hence like a credit card it feels totally disconnected as money I can never access until 65 anyway. Can I get myself out of this rut and should I just go buy a BMW?


Start to adjust your spending habits so you can spent some money now and budget for retirement. Find a good financial balance that allows you to enjoy some things now and not just later in retirement. Maybe start by putting a fixed amount of each pay cheque into a new account used for spending on whatever you like each month/year?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> We are at work about 1/3 of our awake time. And that means most people totally hate 1/3 of their lives. That's a lot!


That's something those people should try to change, if possible. I personally can't imagine working for years at a job I hate.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

peterk said:


> None of these scenarios involve any suffering at all... but perhaps the big spender is gaining some life satisfaction or enrichment for their children that the frugal person is not?


I think this is a nice point. All of these can work out OK, and nobody is really suffering or screwing up. It's just a tradeoff of a few different things in life, such as the age you can retire vs level of spending.

The other thing worth thinking about is that humans are very flexible and a person can really get used to different levels of spending. Currently I'm living on about 40K a year, but I'm sure I could just as easily spend 60K a year. It's not hard. And I also suspect I could learn to live on 30K a year and still be happy and comfortable. It's very fluid, and partly about expectations and habits.

My approach to this is that I don't want to defer all the "good times" until I am retired. I don't know how long I'm going to live, and I don't know if I will be in good health. I'm still in my 30s and yet I know two people (from my high school crowd around my age) who have already died.

I just think it would be a shame to work my butt off for 40 years, under persistent stress and exhaustion, and then drop dead... without ever having a breather to take life easy and enjoy things that I like.

So I am perfectly willing to "take a chance" and spend some money when I'm young. If I really run out of money, then I'll work longer, or cut back on my spending. People are very flexible creatures and we can always adjust.

But one thing we cannot ever get back is time on earth.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

james4beach said:


> My approach to this is that I don't want to defer all the "good times" until I am retired. I don't know how long I'm going to live, and I don't know if I will be in good health. I'm still in my 30s and yet I know two people (from my high school crowd around my age) who have already died.


I had a co-worker my same age, early 30s, drop dead a couple year ago, at the office, while I was there working overtime. I didn't realize it until the next day... I vowed not to work so hard, but that only lasted like a month and then I was back to it...

I don't know what to make of idle, lazy, leisure time... Is that a good thing and a respite? or is it just lazy and wasting your life away... After having a baby I realized how much time we wasted doing nothing, with nothing to show. So much endless lounging and TV watching or surfing the net.
I always thought I wanted more leisure time and less work time before having kids. Then I discovered that I had more in the tank to give, and was required to give, and that's OK too, I guess. It makes you tougher. What's the right amount of toughness to endure? I dunno...


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> this is that I don't want to defer all the "good times" until I am retired. I don't know how long I'm going to live, and I don't know if I will be in good health. I'm still in my 30s and yet I know two people (from my high school crowd around my age) who have already died.


I think about that a lot too... have lost three firends already, one of them in their 20's and the others in their 30's, including one who was murdered. It's crazy to contemplate since I don't have a lot of friends to begin with, so that's nearly a quarter of my friends. And then I think about my father and my grandfathers on both sides who all coincidentally died at the same age -- 59.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I "got there" at age 55 when I retired, but it was still a long haul. I started work full time at age 17.

When I got there I discovered there isn't much there. It is like getting all excited about going to Disneyland and when you get there all the rides are closed for maintenance.

I mentioned to my retired dad one time about how much I wanted to retire and he said......remember that you will be much older, so enjoy your life while you are young, healthy and full of energy.

I worked way too much voluntary overtime (6 days a week for years plus holidays etc) and am not sure it was all worth it in the end.

Don't give up valuable time for yourself and family now in trade for later in life.

Those who think ahead about "getting there" are the most likely to have nothing to worry about anyways.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Make sure to enjoy the journey. Find a good balance of living for today and saving for tomorrow. We always set goals at the beginning of the year and then plan our annual cashflow accordingly. Savings, home improvements, vehicles, travel, etc. 

We put money into a "prepaid expense" account every month and never count these funds as part of our net worth. It allows for spending on travel, vehicles, home improvement and unforeseen expenses without infringing on savings goals.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

@Plugging Along

I just saw this video and I thought about your title "when do we get there".


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## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

In regard to retiring early, I think it all depends on one's job and how much personal gratification one gets from it. If you feel good about continuing to work because it stimulates you and you feel emotionally rewarded by the experience, and you like and feel a bond with your colleagues, then by all means, continue as long and you want and your work place allows you to. I retired from my job at 55 because it was none of those things. It was stressful drudgery which I hated and my goal was to get out as soon as possible. I achieved that goal and I have enjoyed 16 years of retirement with no regrets. My days are filled with nothing to do but take care of our house and grounds, ride my bike every day, (4,300 km last year and 2,800 km so far this summer), and otherwise just enjoy not having to go into that horrible job. (IT tech support with mega-corp. On call 24/7/365, work every week-end, and not get holidays).


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

twowheeled said:


> Hard habit to break I suppose, penny pinching and aggressive saving helped me get from 0 to something, but it's a much harder to condition myself that packing a lunch everyday isn't going to get me the rest of the way to financial freedom. The thought of withdrawing money from my investments to spend seems so wrong and dirty.


My father used to talk about how his mother spent so much time penny pinching to provide for her kids (single mom) that when the kids had good jobs and would try to give back to her - she couldn't enjoy it.

He and I intentionally would spend a bit of money on ourselves or family/friends to try to make sure we didn't repeat her rut.

You can over come it but as the saying goes ... "the best time to plant a tree was yesterday and the second best time is today".


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

peterk said:


> ... None of these scenarios involve any suffering at all...


Sounds like it ... but I haven't really followed all the posts.




peterk said:


> ... but perhaps the big spender is gaining some life satisfaction or enrichment for their children that the frugal person is not?


Problem is ... without knowing the particulars, either one could be doing a bad thing and either one (or both) could be doing a good thing.

I know big spenders who are trying to buy the love of the kids while almost never being around. I also know some frugal people who in being frugal, as spending a lot more time with their kids, keeping track of their lives and building memories.

Likely because of the OP's situation, it seems to me that the opposite extremes are being discussed when there's a wide range that don't fit. Food for thought.


Cheers


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

sags said:


> I "got there" at age 55 when I retired, but it was still a long haul. I started work full time at age 17.
> 
> When I got there I discovered there isn't much there. It is like getting all excited about going to Disneyland and when you get there all the rides are closed for maintenance ...


Interesting ... and depressing.

I doubt that will be my situation as most of my relatives that retired are busier in retirement than when working. The common comment is "I have no idea how I had time for work when I was working".




sags said:


> ... Don't give up valuable time for yourself and family now in trade for later in life. Those who think ahead about "getting there" are the most likely to have nothing to worry about anyways.


Good points.

Cheers


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Just going by the title of this post and connecting with some of the past 2 months tells me that alot of (older) folks are "going to be there (if not already)" given this pandemic. By (older), I mean those who are not worried nor care about the next paycheck. And sadly, these are the ones with tons of experience under their belt. FIRE is real, not just a phenomenon.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> ... We are at work about 1/3 of our awake time. And that means most people totally hate 1/3 of their lives. That's a lot!


I dunno ... that seems to be too simple a view. I know several who hate their jobs (some more focused on complaining while others are working on moving to a better job), several who hate particular parts of their jobs but overall like their job and several who have FI but have kept working as their job is what gets them up in the morning.

I also question how reliable the published numbers are. Did the number of world wide workers that weren't engaged in their jobs really go from 85% to 66% in one year? And was it really improving year over year?

It probably muddies the waters to have the media put the headline/article about how "85% hate their jobs" but the linked study makes no mention of percentages from asking that question. Rather the study talks about 15% not being engaged plus what that costs companies. Only two mentions of "hate the job" in the writeup for the study. The first is a general comment with no percentages attached and the second highlights that it may be the manager - not the company or the job itself.

A later study by the same group with the lower 66% disengagement number says that "despite this disengagement, most employees don’t report that they _hate_ their jobs."


So yes, lots of turmoil, lots of complaints but it does not seem to be as simple as "most people totally hate 1/3 their life".


Cheers


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Eclectic21 said:


> Sounds like it ... but I haven't really followed all the posts.
> 
> 
> Problem is ... without knowing the particulars, either one could be doing a bad thing and either one (or both) could be doing a good thing.
> ...


Ya I'm not really sure what I was talking about... just had a moment of silly fanciness hit me.

Obviously kids don't need a large fancy home to live in, excessive toys or clothes and cars as they grow older. I was thinking that "memorable" vacations to beautiful and/or historical locales, and not doing so on a cheap budget and missing the best parts, like admissions, fancy food, and views would be a worthwhile expenditure...And I suppose it could be, but how much does a child or teenager really appreciate traveling to interesting locales?

Surely a home-based education to learn skills and gain knowledge about the finer things in life is the way to go for a 10-20 year old who you want to have exposed to cultural things. This will take more parental effort, I'd imagine. Then when they are young adults maybe they'll want to continue their good life of learning and enrichment, and go do some of these things themselves (perhaps with some parental funding if necessary?).


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Wondering what CMFers take is on retiring early when still having teenagers?

When I'm 55 and first able to retire with my pension, my kids will be 22, and 20 - "in college", ostensibly.

If I'm pursing early retirement, around 50 let's say, kids will only be 17 and 15. Are there negatives and family disruptions to dad stopping working when they are this age, in the formative years of "learning to work" and figuring out what career path they might partake on? Is this setting a bad example?

I have had many coworkers in their 50s say this - that they'll retire when their kids are finished highschool or finished university. But I don't know their motivation behind saying this though. It could just be money related that they naturally can't afford to retire until then anyways, and this is just a nice thing to say... Or they might be nicely telling me/people to buzz off in wondering about when they'll retire.

This all relates to my "getting there" budget and life planning... If retiring while kids are still young and living at home is not conducive to encouraging their full maturation and launching of their own lives, then I'll probably just need to suck it up and keep working (and making serious bank for those final 5 years). Or is this nonsense? Maybe being 100% available when I have teenagers, even if I no longer have a career, unlike all the other dads, is actually a net benefit??


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

Well as to retire with teen kids , I am kind on that cusp. I am 55 still full time. Wife ER'ed 2.5 years ago at age 54.. She is 2 years older than me. Now that COVID is winding back restrictions she is really on the go again. Swim and city pool, 1 hour late morning 5 days a week, lunch with pals on average once a week. Host friends to back yard coffee every Saturday morning, host a dinner or bbq every say 9 weeks and out at others places every 2-3 weeks. When live theatre places come back she will be active with them almost 4 day weekends for 3 weeks every 3 month on average in or heping with a show.

Kid 1 is 20, sill lives at home, if in the door at 2 am and out again at noon is classed at home. Trying to get into uni.Has done a few terms uni part time already. Has a couple of part time jobs hat keep him 24-50 hours busy a week.

Kid 2 is set to do a victory lap in grade 12 to see if he wants to go to college. 

I got their RESP going well with over matching fund needs from the very start. When oldest was 12 I made a lump sum so that he would be at 50k in just as feds grants capped up. Did the same for the younger one. 

Before pulling capital to stuff into kids TFSA;s the RESP topped out at 192K in assets.and it has been 60% gic;s for the last five years The rest all these years has been MAW104. Since it is so rich I am not sure we will ever get all the fed grant money out of it.

So not afraid of retiring before kids are done college. Now just aiming to do another 6 months or so into 2022 to get another full year of CPP contributions made, so I will not have as many empty years of CPP in the equation if I do retire at 56.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I find it interesting that retiring before having an empty nest would be seen as a negative to the offspring. It could be argued that it could be a motivating force to aspire to do the same. My child is still a pre teen and would love for me to be home when he leaves and returns from school each day. That may change by the time I am ready to retire but for now I will take whatever attention he will give me while I work 50-60 hours a week.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

I've always pondered a retirement at or before 50. Our kids would be 15, 12, 10 at that time. I think it would be great to have parents available during those years. Think of helping out on sports teams, getting them to practices, making all the shows and not rushing. Helping with homework, and lots of time together over the summers until they get summer jobs. Lots of lake time.

There'll be some point where they won't want to hang out all the time, but that's the same as if you were to retire when they're in uni or finished it. So it's not different. WRT kids, I can only see positives of retiring early if the money allows. No negatives.


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