# About Buying Canadian Made Products



## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

I had to get a new toaster today and decided on my way to the (generic big box store) I was going to buy only a "Made in Canada" product, even if it was a few more dollars. So, they had pretty much all the name brands on the shelf but guess what? Every last one of them was made in China. I asked a clerk what the chances of finding one that was made in Canada were and he said probably zero, in fact he said finding one made anywhere but China would be unlikely. This is disturbing to me, I hadn't realized that we have lost control so completely to the big corporations that would move our potential jobs offshore for profit. I know it's pure dollars and cents economics but it still bothers me. I'm just sayin'.


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Why do I need to buy a Canadian toaster?

I think it is unreasonable to expect that every product you use can or should be manufactured in Canada. Take optical equipment. Canada neither has a legacy, nor ability to produce World class optics. Well Leitz Canada used to, but all the designs and technology was German anyway.

Point is, support the Canadian economy where you can, but we don't have the manpower, knowledge base, nor manufacturing capacity to produce everything we consume.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Sampson said:


> I think it is unreasonable to expect that every product you use can or should be manufactured in Canada.
> 
> Point is, support the Canadian economy where you can, but we don't have the manpower, knowledge base, nor manufacturing capacity to produce everything we consume.


Large appliances, for the most part are still made here (or in the US), even if some of the parts for them are made in China. Almost every small appliance product is made
in China now..because of profit margins and labour costs, taxes on manufacturing and other production costs associated with keeping a factory running here.

Having the small appliances made in China, eliminates the labour costs, union issues, benefits, pension plans, holiday pay, sick pay, property taxes, business taxes and so on.
All the appliance company has to deal with is the actual cost per unit + shipping from China and warehousing distribution costs here. 
Prices are kept lower, but at the same time, it eliminates production jobs here.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think your best bet is to stick to food items. If not marked, ask. Often generics are from Canada and brand names are from elsewhere.

We had a supplier in the Fraser Valley whose brand of tomatos was BCs Best. When asked why they were imported from Mexico, he said that is the best they can do in January. Apparently, they do use BC product in season.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

carverman said:


> Having the small appliances made in China, eliminates the labour costs, union issues, benefits, pension plans, holiday pay, sick pay, property taxes, business taxes and so on.
> All the appliance company has to deal with is the actual cost per unit + shipping from China and warehousing distribution costs here.
> Prices are kept lower, but at the same time, *it eliminates production jobs here*.


North America hasn't been creating this kind of production job for decades now and even if I dedicated my life to trying to find a Canadian-made toaster that effort would be futile. Those jobs are gone, they are not coming back, and it is in everyone's best interest to accomodate to this reality as opposed to bemoaning it.


----------



## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

China's average manufacturing wage:

2001: *58c* an hour
2015: *6$* an hour (projected)

source:

As Chinese wages rise, US manufacturers head back home


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

A trickle of high-skilled production jobs to low wage, right-to-work states such as Kansas, with its minimum wage of $7.25. (It's currently $10.25 in Ontario.) I maintain that toaster production is not coming back to Canada.


----------



## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> A trickle of high-skilled production jobs to low wage, right-to-work states such as Kansas, with its minimum wage of $7.25. (It's currently $10.25 in Ontario.) I maintain that toaster production is not coming back to Canada.


Agreed. Even if they came back, and of the existing manufacturing jobs that exist, I believe automation is a far more dangerous prospect to these types of jobs than shipping oversees.

I'm curious to know if the OP would be ok with buying a Made in Canada product that was produced by a robot, and whose production factory resulted in the loss of Canadian jobs.

We need to focus on what we are good at... extracting base resources, and hopefully venturing into some form of high tech research and manufacturing. Something not easily replicated in developing countries due to infrastructure. The issue has always been that our economy is not large enough to be self-sufficient, nor self-sustaining, therefore we MUST rely on exports, whether to the US or other emerging markets. Hopefully one day, those exports will include something other than raw materials.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I needed I new toaster with the euro 220v plug, so I got one that happened to be made in Germany. It didn't cost much more but the quality is noticeably different to me. It's quite eye opening to live in a country that produces a lot of their own stuff, and I've picked up a lot of quality products I didn't know could be so before. I've realized that just about anything sold in NA malls are poor quality for the price really, compared to what you can find online or with a little research. You can pay a bit more for something that lasts and works much better, often you can even find better products for the same cost thanks to direct sales etc, lots of good products which are purposely ignored by the malls. I have nothing against Asian made products and I know they can actually make amazing quality if they're asked/paid to do so, but if something is made there it's usually to squeeze out every single cent of profit. IE low quality and poor value. People seem to enjoy throwing things out to buy new ones though, I like to see things last. Usually when something is "made in x local country" it has some pride or quality behind it imo.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> I needed I new toaster with the euro 220v plug, so I got one that happened to be made in Germany. It didn't cost much more but the quality is noticeably different to me. It's quite eye opening to live in a country that produces a lot of their own stuff, and I've picked up a lot of quality products I didn't know could be so before. I've realized that just about anything sold in NA malls are poor quality for the price really, compared to what you can find online or with a little research. *You can pay a bit more for something that lasts and works much better*, often you can even find better products for the same cost thanks to direct sales etc, lots of good products which are purposely ignored by the malls. I have nothing against Asian made products and I know they can actually make amazing quality if they're asked/paid to do so, but if something is made there it's usually to squeeze out every single cent of profit. IE low quality and poor value. People seem to enjoy throwing things out to buy new ones though, I like to see things last. Usually when something is "made in x local country" it has some pride or quality behind it imo.


No disagreement from me on any of these points. However, this argument always seems a little bit, to me, like the argument that we should all be eating organic/local etc. The cost of a Canadian-made toaster, if one were available, would be higher OR of lesser quality than a toaster made overseas where labour is cheaper. 

Extrapolate this argument to your entire household and you end up with a reduced standard of living, but everyone's washing machine lasts much longer. No more TVs in every room, and in fact fewer people actually have toasters and TVs, because they are less affordable. 

I'm totally of the asthetic that "more is less" and I don't buy a lot of appliances of any kind. Until a few weeks ago I'd never even been in a Walmart. But this is not the predominant tide of NA society and you cannot simultaneously argue that we should all buy local and that we can maintain the preferred NA lifestyle (not that anyone here is, I'm just making a comment: the preferred NA lifestyle for a given income level is lots of spending on lots of disposable goods, acquired cheaply and sourced internationally).


----------



## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

As long as there is after purchase-servicing (ie. defective returns, warranty) and the cost is comparably reasonable, I would be fine with Made in China / Made in Mexico / Made on this Earth. I wouldn't be too keen to pay a premium for a product (other than food) labeled as "Made in Canada", only to discover all the parts were made elsewhere other than Canada. On the other hand, food must be strictly Canadian produce, locally or nationally on my list.


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

I don't shop for Canadian products, but if possible I buy non asian products, IMO in many instances there is a difference in quality even though the manufacturers may claim the standards are the same.


----------



## brad (May 22, 2009)

Actually some of the best-quality clothing in the world is made in Asia -- it's hard to beat the quality and skill level of textile workers there. Everyone assumes that the only reason clothing manufacturers get stuff made in China is the low labour rates, but some designers have things made there because they can't get them made as well anywhere else. Yvon Chouinard of Patagonia has given some lectures on this topic -- he actually tried making clothes in North America and Europe first, but nobody could meet his quality standards until he started working with factories in Asia.


----------



## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

My older basic & major appliances, all lasted 10+ years; the newer ones, however, such as: DVD player/fridge/kettle/TV, have all given problems between 3rd & 5th years [made in Japan {or Malasya}, S.Korea/Mexico, Germany].

It seems that things are not made to last anymore, no matter where they are engineered/assembled.

*M.gal:* been to Walmart once & so hated it!


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree it doesn't matter where it is made, I can name a great product from each of the Asian countries including China. Like I said they will produce whatever you pay them/ask them to build for you... The reason a lot of cheap stuff is made in China is twofold; higher sales margins and the sooner a replacement needs to be purchased. You can still find good quality products though, and the price is really not that bad thanks to the internet cutting out the middle men or other unique ways. Maybe instead of "Made in Canada, x country" we need a "Made to Last" mark/certification. These products usually thrive on the specific forum communities for sales nowaday, and even listen to a lot of forum feedback for improvements. The made in Germany stuff is pretty impressive value though for mainstream stores. I know of a few Canadian brands I wouldn't trade for anything else as well.


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> It seems that things are not made to last anymore, no matter where they are engineered/assembled.
> 
> !


There is truth to that, producers need items to breakdown so they can sell more, poeple want low prices so the cost of producing needs to go down, hence the quality goes down as well, but that means they can sell more often so at the end it's not cheaper for consumers over the long run.

On top of that in the past we needed a pot to boil everything, now we need rice cooker, deep fryyer, egg poacher, veggie steamer, slow cooker........... We must be really regressing in our intelligence ;-)


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Homerhomer said:


> We must be really regressing in our intelligence ;-)


lol


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Toronto.gal said:


> *M.gal:* been to Walmart once & so hated it!


I walked around the store in awe, all "so THIS is Walmart!"


----------



## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

The problem with buying local products for most people is that the cost is usually significantly higher for local products than those mass produced in other areas (duh) and for low income families this savings could mean the difference between managing to get by and going without.

While I was a student I loved being able to buy cheaply made foreign products to furnish my apartment, etc because otherwise it would have been impossible without racking up a major amount of debt. However now that I am out on my own with no debt, I would love to support Canadian products. The most recent personal experience I have with buying cheaply/poorly made foreign products is a couch I purchased from The Brick. I paid roughly $1400 for it and I am currently returning it for exchange due to defect for the THIRD time. I've also noticed the general poor quality materials used (about half pressboard) and shoddy worksmanship (apolstery staples too far apart). The couch is large and appears to be very stylish, however I realize the reason it had a $1400 pricetag when similar couches had a $2500 price is because of the giant 'Made in Malaysia' stamp on the box. For the burden it has been, I wish I went and bought the Canadian or USA made couch for $2500.

The death of the manufacturing sector is probably the biggest preventable mistake western nations have let slip by. The manufacturing sector is what propelled most nations into superpowers in the past and is currently throwing previously impoverished nations into growing powers. Helping these nations grow is not the problem, but slipping behind is. You cannot build an economy based entirely on the natural resource primary industries and service industries alone. Over the past 30 years we seem to have traded places with China, where they formerly traded natural resources with us for our manufactuered / high-technology goods, we are now in the complete opposite arrangement.

To make up an example, say we sell $1 worth of wood to China. They then sell us back a $4 doo-dad. A retail store here sells that doo-dad for $5. $2 of that products value was gained in Canada, wheras $3 worth of it was manufacturered in China. Wouldn't you rather see that $3 benefit the national economy, then spent by us to buy the same piece of wood we originally sold back? Or potentially just see a better quality product in return? Formerly, I would have loved to see the $100 savings on a bookshelf made in Taiwan over the Canadain made equivilent but now with a bigger perspective on things I would rather see my neighbours gainfully employed and get a product that will actually last. Unemployment numbers are expected to rise to just below 8% and that is a bigger burden on us and the economy as a whole than we think.

Local food is a bit different, large scale farming optimizes land use (ie. productivity per square foot of land farmed) and makes sense from an environmental stance. However in terms of food security its really created an issue. High-risk areas, including the very urban and the very rural are at the end of a very long chain of supply system that has waaay too many points of failure to count. Any disruption in communication, power, transportation, labour, etc which causes a delay in the system can accordian and create a much larger problem. In a food security article that I had previously read it stated that Newfoundland really only has about 3 days worth of fresh food on hand if the supply were to be cut off. Now I believe the article didn't include canned/preserved foods however being completely exhausted of fresh food within 3 days of a disaster (Hurricane Igor for example, a potential trucker / ferry service strike for another) is a scarey thought.

Buying locally produced food keeps local farmers / producers in business and gives them potential to grow. Personally I would rather be able to walk down the street and buy a head of lettuce for $3 and ensure it is there whenever I need it then to spend $2 a head each time and then have to spend a month without it at all due to a labour strike in another region.

There are a couple websites I found after googling 'made in canada', most of which I found are out of date or poor attempts at a business by reselling products. I think we need a consumer-driven non profit group to provide labelling / identification of products that are manufactured here.
(Maybe there is one I currently am unaware of?)

I'm a bit tried and this is my first post on CMF so maybe I'm ranting. I'll shut up now.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Nice first post there. I also agree there's no reason for our manufacturing sector to deteriorate so much, there are still many creative ways to compete besides using cheap labour (such as cutting out all the greedy middle men, improving efficiency, making legitimately good products instead of marketing ploys etc) Competition is supposed to win here, but our best innovation in NA is new ways to fool the consumer. Of course it gets complicated because if we all start buying products direct a lot of service jobs disappear instead

I'm all for local farming having grown up on them, and having fresh food available is strategic as protecting our natural resources imo (heck we apparently have "strategic reserves" of maple syrup..) It does get complicated though. For example, why does NA food always have soo much of that g*d awful fructose corn syrup in it for sweetener, instead of much more natural tasting sugarcane from SA? As far as I know it's just because the US encourages local corn crops and tariffs the SA sugar. Many other countries don't use so much of this corn syrup at all, and I'm not sure it's any healthier


----------



## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

Hey, my little complaint about toasters really got people talking here, and a lot of good points. I was only partly dismayed about not being able to find a Canadian made toaster and the loss of any jobs that may mean, the main thrust was the apparent total dominance of the market by China. And mode3sour, corn syrup is not a healthy alternative to cane sugar according to everything I've read and been told by my oh so many health nut relatives, who would banish sugar too.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> (It's currently $10.25 in Ontario.) I maintain that toaster production is not coming back to Canada.


..and that's only the hourly wage....add in all the other costs such as materials, benefits, taxes etc..and that pushes up the cost the manufacturer of the toaster $26 or more. 

If you add distribution and retail markup, maybe add another 40 to 50%? Now that toaster becomes a $50 item. How can the Made in Canada toaster manufacturer
compete with MIC toasters in the big box stores. (Most name brand popup 2-slice toasters made in China, retail for under $26.00.)


----------



## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

That all went away when Mulroney signed NAFTA. In fact that was just the last step in a process dating back to the end of WW2. Back then Canada was an industrial powerhouse. Some time in the sixties we decided we didn't want to be. Since then anyone who wanted to build a new factory or make anything in Canada has been treated as a common enemy.

So, we got what we wanted. No more dark satanic mills, no more factory chimneys belching smoke, no more soul destroying industrial jobs. Tons and tons of liberal arts majors. Starbucks in every town.We won!


----------



## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

It would seem that a good first step might be the initial value-added processes that are linked to Canadian resources. If we can grow it, harvest it or pull it put of the ground then incremental steps could always be made in milling, processing and refining here. But, that probably takes vision and stability in planning longer than the current political cycle and I don't think it is going to be driven solely from the private sector. No answers here, just the observation that dismantling something seems to take substantially less time than building from scratch. Taken one step further, rebuilding seems that mUch more fruitless once it has been demonstrated how easy it is to tear something down. Baby steps that become ingrained in the social identity are far more likely to last, IMO, than Grand sweeping initiatives. Maybe just asking the question about where things we use are sourced is one of those small changes.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> My older basic & major appliances, all lasted 10+ years; the newer ones, however, such as: DVD player/fridge/kettle/TV, have all given problems between 3rd & 5th years.
> It seems that things are not made to last anymore, no matter where they are engineered/assembled.


That is so true. Take a fridge for instance. Many years ago, you could buy a fridge and expect it to last (compressor and all ) for at least 20 years...and they actually had metal shells too.
In the 80s, you could still expect to buy a fridge that would last 10-15 years, thinner metal but still metal.
Now, if you get 5+ years out of them, you are lucky, and the stores push you for an extended warranty on top of the purchase price. 

TVs, DVD players, Computers are made now to only last so long. Once the warranty expires,you are pretty much committed to tossing them and buying a new one because the cost of fixing
them may exceed their residual value. Having the appliance made in Canada, probably wouldn't change it that much. We are becoming a disposable society.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> That all went away when Mulroney signed NAFTA.
> 
> So, we got what we wanted. No more dark satanic mills, no more factory chimneys belching smoke, no more soul destroying industrial jobs. T*ons and tons of liberal arts majors. Starbucks in every town.We won!*




We have evolved to being more of a brain trust, making money and getting rich from investments. :biggrin:

Manual factory labour at minimum wage..who wants to do that anymore? :rolleyes2: 
We still have our service industry, auto technicians, plumbers, electricians etc..which now can justify charging $90-$100 an hour...because, where are you going to go to get something repaired or serviced?...China?


----------



## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

carverman said:


> [/B]
> We still have our service industry, auto technicians, plumbers, electricians etc..which now can justify charging $90-$100 an hour...because, where are you going to go to get something repaired or serviced?...China?


Have you tried to get a phone or other expensive electrical gadget repaired recently? You aren't getting it done locally my friend. Plus they send them away for so long and charge extra fee's that make it more worthwhile to just toss the damn thing and buy a new one. Gone are the days of the local TV and Radio repair shop.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

There is one local applicance repair shop in my neighbourhood. Here's an article about the store (written by one of my friends and neighbours): http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01/13/clerk-he-can-get-your-motor-running/

I bought my toaster from him.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

carverman said:


> That is so true. Take a fridge for instance. Many years ago, you could buy a fridge and expect it to last (compressor and all ) for at least 20 years...and they actually had metal shells too.
> In the 80s, you could still expect to buy a fridge that would last 10-15 years, thinner metal but still metal.
> Now, if you get 5+ years out of them, you are lucky, and the stores push you for an extended warranty on top of the purchase price.
> 
> ...


We are paying much much less for appliances generally than we were in the past. The first TVs sold (for example) in 1939 cost $600 (I got that figure from a U.S. source; we'll say for the sake of argument they were $600 CDN). The Bank of Canada inflation calculator says that's about $6500 today. 

Again - extrapolate that to a whole household of appliances and the overall standard of living in society goes down.


----------



## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> There is one local applicance repair shop in my neighbourhood. Here's an article about the store (written by one of my friends and neighbours): http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01...motor-running/
> 
> I bought my toaster from him.


Thats the type of guy that deserves solid patronage. We're I in the area I would too. 

As I said earlier it's not *all* about saving that extra buck for personal gain. Its nice to be able to bring gains to the overall economy. Check out this guy.

Factory owner offers $1 rent in exchange for jobs 



> The owner of a vacant factory in Souris is hoping his asking price for rent will buy some jobs for his struggling community.
> 
> Reg Chapman is offering the keys to the building for just $1 in the first year. But the tenant has to create local jobs in return.
> 
> Reg Chapman shows off the main floor of the factory. (CBC)"I'm offering somebody to come and create some employment," he said. "If we can do that, it would be great for the area."


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> Again - extrapolate that to a whole household of appliances and the overall standard of living in society goes down.


I don't think it really has to. I imagine the first TVs cost a lot more until the technology became mainstream, but I don't think a better appliance/product really has to cost so much more that it reduces the standard of living. I think we can all agree that long term, it would be cheaper if things were better quality. Cheap products are sold with the highest margins possible. It all comes down to maximizing profits, NOT standard of living. Lots of people make big money in between who have no effect on the end quality at all. If you cut them all out of the equation though, the problem might be the standard of jobs rather than the standard of living I think. Heaven forbid more people actually have to do tangible work, or imo, we could just lower the 40-hr work week by embracing technology such as robotics. People will still spend the money they saved on something else I'm sure.

I bought a trailer directly from a local who builds them himself, galvanizes them, and overall makes a much much better trailer than the mass produced Chinese ones sold at Cdn Tire for the exact same price. How? Because it was sold directly and without all the retail marketing in between. Stuff in a retail store is marked up to whatever people will pay, and there can be hidden deficiencies wherever consumers won't notice just to maximize profits. There are many possible ways to sell a better product for the same price. You can make something with a robot, sell it directly, not ship it across the world, sell more volume at a lower margin etc. Thinking outside of the box, regardless of skin colour or lines in the sand, stuff can be made and sold more efficiently especially in these days of the internet.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I should have thrown in the economist's catch-all "get me off the hook" phrase, _ceterus paribus_ -- that is, "all other factors held constant." 

I agree with you, M3S. I truly strive to buy local and I am relatively price-indifferent. (This means I eat a lot of root vegetables all winter, and I eat "illegal" - off-quota - chicken and duck eggs all year.) But if the price of the item remains constant or falls over time, _ceterus paribus _the quality must decrease.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm sure there are more factors than we can imagine.. I miss fresh farm eggs and fresh (nowadays highly illegal) milk... Why these are enforced more than drugs is probably a whole other discussion. Eggs in Germany are actually surprisingly orange (which means healthy chickens to me) but their milk however is sold warm on the shelf!?...


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

UHT milk! My eggs are all different sizes, are not graded, and are often quite dirty.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

M3S, I think ultimately most people just want the cheapest option for the short term, even if it doesn't make financial sense in the long term or results in lower quality. They would rather pay $800 for a washing machine that lasts 7 years than pay $1600 for one that last 25 years. They want the cheapest airline ticket and then complain about the food/service etc.


----------



## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

I wonder if there would be any interest in a Canadian product/business list sticky?


----------



## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

Woody said:


> I wonder if there would be any interest in a Canadian product/business list sticky?


Yes, I would like that.


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Woody said:


> I wonder if there would be any interest in a Canadian product/business list sticky?


Shopping around for furniture I see large stickers when it's made in Canada or USA, no stickers for stuff made in China.

Shopping for just about anything online the made in USA, Canada, Italy, Germany I see it clearly listed somewhere under the specs, if made in China and such one has to look hard to see where it's made ;-)
I don't think we need anything like this, manufacturers have already figured out what they want us to see ;-)


----------



## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

Homerhomer said:


> Shopping around for furniture I see large stickers when it's made in Canada or USA, no stickers for stuff made in China.
> 
> Shopping for just about anything online the made in USA, Canada, Italy, Germany I see it clearly listed somewhere under the specs, if made in China and such one has to look hard to see where it's made ;-)
> I don't think we need anything like this, manufacturers have already figured out what they want us to see ;-)


All true, a list like that would be too big and cumbersome to be of much use. One thing I did notice on these Chinese made toasters that were in boxes with familiar names was that I had I to really read it carefully because there was a line that said things like "imported by Proctor Silex, Picton ON Canada" and "Printed in Canada" and "Packaged in Canada by Proctor Silex" etc....., the actual "Made in China" was in a different area of the box in most cases, but it was there.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Jim9guitars said:


> ..., the actual "Made in China" was in a different area of the box in most cases, but it was there.


How many of those 9 guitars you have are made in Canada, Jim?
There is a factory in Quebec and a few custom/boutique luthiers here in Canada, but for the most part, the Canadian public that
buys guitars, are either buying USA made, Korean or Chinese made. USA made if you making a living from music, and Chinese made for those that don't.
http://www.guitartime.ca/2009/10/08/canadian-acoustic-guitars/


----------



## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

Hey carverman, I only have six guitars now and I don't make my living from music anymore. I don't know how many guitars I have owned all told but I did have 17 at once at one point and I am pretty sure exactly none of them were made in Canada, mostly USA. We do have some very respectable guitar makers here though, but mostly in the acoustic field. I have owned several Canadian made amplifiers, Traynor, now known as Yorkville have always been respected as a quality builder for one. USA made electric guitars are the holy grail for most players and collectors, but then guitars and amps are not a staple item for every household like toasters are.


----------



## Woody (Oct 30, 2012)

Homerhomer said:


> Shopping for just about anything online the made in USA, Canada, Italy, Germany I see it clearly listed somewhere under the specs, if made in China and such one has to look hard to see where it's made ;-)
> I don't think we need anything like this, manufacturers have already figured out what they want us to see ;-)


My couch as I said earlier had a giant Made in Malaysia stamp that I should have avoided.

Plus the 'Made in Canada' branding only requires the final step in the process to have been completed in Canada. Highliner fish sticks which brings in Vietnamese Talapia that is processed there, gets bagged and boxed here and it still gets the 'Product of Canada' label.


----------



## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Woody said:


> Plus the 'Made in Canada' branding only requires the final step in the process to have been completed in Canada. Highliner fish sticks which brings in Vietnamese Talapia that is processed there, gets bagged and boxed here and it still gets the 'Product of Canada' label.


Things like this should be regulated, it is simply misleading within the legal rules.

Same goes for organic foods.


----------



## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Homerhomer said:


> Things like this should be regulated, it is simply misleading within the legal rules.
> 
> Same goes for organic foods.


But that is a problem. What percentage of an item has to be made in Canada? And what is 'made in Canada' anyway? If the raw material is imported and a part is made here - is it 100% Canadian? What if a toaster has 50% imported parts? What if it's 10% foreign parts and partially assembled in Canada?

If a fish is born in Vietnam and swims to Canada and is caught - is it really 100% Canadian?


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Woody said:


> Have you tried to get a phone or other expensive electrical gadget repaired recently? You aren't getting it done locally my friend. Plus they send them away for so long and charge extra fee's that make it more worthwhile to just toss the damn thing and buy a new one. Gone are the days of the local TV and Radio repair shop.


Yes ..<brings a tear to carverman's eyes>..I remember those days. Radios and TVs had replaceable tubes. Tube testers could be found at any Ma&Pa corner store. 
When the family TV went on the fritz, I would just pull out all the tubes, (each tv had a tube socket guide back then), take it to the corner store, 
test the tubes and buy the replacement tube to (usually) fix the problem.

So what happened next..they went to solid state and got rid of the tubes. At that point you could still find an occasional local repair (run by an "old school" guy),
who hadn't retired yet (or died) and get him to fix the tv, if you wanted to wait and do without for a few days.

Then they went to surface mount micro chip technology and at that point, not only can you not troubleshoot these electronic gizmos anymore, but the old guys
have long since retired or died. 

With freight charges what they are today..are you going to send that $150 "Made in China" DVD player or now less than $500 32 inch flat screen TV to the repair depot
in another city, waiting several weeks) without a TV?..
.no, you call the recycle people, then go to Future shops (or wherever), and buy another one.

Technology has turned us into a throwaway society these days. Now the Provincial gov'ts recognize this, and charge a disposal (recycle) fee up front 
when you buy that new Flat screen, or any electronic product. like a computer.


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I had my desktop tube radio re-wired to play output from my iPhone. :biggrin:


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> But that is a problem. What percentage of an item has to be made in Canada? And what is 'made in Canada' anyway? If the raw material is imported and a part is made here - is it 100% Canadian? What if a toaster has 50% imported parts? What if it's 10% foreign parts and partially assembled in Canada?


Then they would have labels.."made in China" and assembled in Canada. You can't use the raw materials argument..it is usually the finished product bought by the consumer.
For instance, a recycled old car from Canada, crushed into a bale, then sent to China to melt down into new steel..does originate in Canada..but it's then incorporated into that new Chinese made product..that still uses steel these days. 



> If a fish is born in Vietnam and swims to Canada and is caught - is it really 100% Canadian?


It could be considered a Vietnamese Canadian.:biggrin:


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> I had my desktop tube radio re-wired to play output from my iPhone. :biggrin:


Very clever use of old technology adapted to handle new technology.,* M.G.* 
That old tube radio will still be around long after the iPhone bites the dust or maybe even some of us.:biggrin:


----------



## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Apparently Canada's labelling laws specify that 51% of the COST of producing the item must be incurred in Canada in order to label the end product as "made in Canada." 

I recall this issue raising its head a few years ago with respect to apple juice labelled as "made in Canada" when it was sourced entirely from apple concentrate from Chinese apples. But the packaging and water (to dilute the concentrate) are Canadian, hence "made in Canada."


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Jim9guitars said:


> Hey carverman, I only have six guitars now and I don't make my living from music anymore. I have owned several Canadian made amplifiers, Traynor, now known as Yorkville have always been respected as a quality builder for one. USA made electric guitars are the holy grail for most players and collectors, but then guitars and amps are not a staple item for every household like toasters are.


I used to have 9, Made in Korea or Japan and 3 electric (Les Paul types) that I made myself. I remember the Yorkville Sound days quite well, as I lived in Toronto and worked in a recording studio in Yorkville in the early 70s. 3 years ago, I decided to make a Les Paul from scratch..then another and finally a 3rd one. ..so you could say I have 3 Made in Canada (but with imported electrics from the USA.) I have two amps one tube and one solid state, both US brands, but made in China. It's hard to find an amp still made in
Canada these days.


----------



## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

carverman said:


> 3 years ago, I decided to make a Les Paul from scratch..then another and finally a 3rd one. ..so you could say I have 3 Made in Canada (but with imported electrics from the USA.) I have two amps one tube and one solid state, both US brands, but made in China.


 Very cool, I never got into building guitars. I bought a Fender Mustang series modeling amp earlier this, I'm really impressed with it. You can dial up any sound easy, and they all sound good but, of course, it's made in China! I had a mid 70's gold top Les Paul for a long time, sold it 2 years ago.


----------



## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

We try and avoid buying "made in china" food products. One has to be real careful here. The kids came home with lots of candy last night that were "made in china" that we had to throw out.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

CanadianCapitalist said:


> The kids came home with lots of candy last night that were "made in china" that we had to throw out.


Wow! They've taken over Halloween as well. Besides the costumes and masks and decorations, they are now making candy too?

Somebody must have shopped at the dollar store. How did you know the candy was made in China..did it say on the plastic wrap? 

Don't blame you for throwing it out. You just don't know what's in that candy anymore.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Jim9guitars said:


> I bought a Fender Mustang series modeling amp earlier this, I'm really impressed with it. You can dial up any sound easy, and they all sound good but, of course, it's made in China! .


About 75% of the affordable guitars are made in China or Japan. So are the name brand tube/transistor amps.Top of the line Gretsches such as the White Falcon are made in Japan..bcause the Japanese instrument factories still produce better quality...but more expensive obviously.

Gibson has an Epiphone plant in China since 2002. There are still some boutique amp makers here in NA as well as custom guitar small production/boutique luthiers..but most of the manufacturing is in China now.

While Gibson guitars are still made in the US, there are a lot of counterfeit knockoffs coming out of China sold very cheaply on E-Bay. When they can copy Les Paul standards and customs as Epiphone brands which are sold throughout the world. It's easy for them to change the headstock name and try to sell it as Gibsons. 
Counterfeiting is a big problem these days.


----------



## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Speaking of labels, what's with these new _Union made_ labels that are appearing more and more.
Most recently, I saw this on a bottle of ketchup manufactured by the Heinz company.

Why do I need to know if a bottle of tomato ketchup was made by unionized labor or non unionized.
Will they give me a discount if I buy the non union tomato ketchup instead of the unionized one?

At least my ketchup won't go on strike and burn down my pantry.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> Why do I need to know if a bottle of tomato ketchup was made by unionized labor or non unionized.


I guess if you are a member of some union or a union supporter..it might be of some interest. An if the unionized workers at Heinz ever go on
strike, you may want to boycott their ketchup? The big beer brewers have been putting on the union made on their labels for years now,
if they go on strike (usually in the summer months), I guess you're not supposed to drink beer during that time?


----------



## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> I have two amps one tube and one solid state, both US brands, but made in China. It's hard to find an amp still made in
> Canada these days.


You should make your own! I have 5000-10000 vacuum tubes in stock ... of course to actually find any particular one, not so easy. I have hole punches, and tube sockets, and high voltage transformers, and ... Most inherited from my mentor who could make and fix anything electronic from any era.

As I recall, many musician types prefer tube amps. I believe something to do with the power series expansion of the gain function being odd harmonics as opposed to even harmonics with a transistor.

hboy43


----------



## Jim9guitars (May 5, 2012)

hboy43 said:


> As I recall, many musician types prefer tube amps. I believe something to do with the power series expansion of the gain function being odd harmonics as opposed to even harmonics with a transistor.
> 
> hboy43


It is true that most guitarists prefer the sound of a tube amp, but they are also picky about the tubes themselves. Apparently tubes that work in pairs in an amp sound much better if they share the exact specs. This has prompted some companies to sell pre-tested matched pairs of the most common tubes for guitar amps...at a premium price. While I agree that tube amps sound better I stopped using them many years ago due to several factors, one being they are more fragile than solid state amps, and our Canadian winters. If you use a tube amp for several hours at a gig in the winter and don't let it cool sufficiently before packing it out to the truck the tubes explode. Another reason is major advances in solid state technology has produced more tube-like sounding solid state amps. But you never know who might be interested in your stock, you may want to try running an ad in the musical instrument section of Kijiji.


----------



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> You should make your own! I have 5000-10000 vacuum tubes in stock ... of course to actually find any particular one, not so easy. I have hole punches, and tube sockets, and high voltage transformers, and ... Most inherited from my mentor who could make and fix anything electronic from any era.


Yes, I could build one from scratch using the old school turret board construction but by the time you find a decent power and output transformer that is matched to the wattage of the
tubes..it can run several hundred more than just buying one of the shelf. 



> As I recall, many musician types prefer tube amps. I believe something to *do with the power series expansion of the gain function being odd harmonics as opposed to even harmonics with a transistor.*


???

The trans conductance characteristics of tubes vs transistors and the sound they produce. is "that tone", guitar players appreciate and prefer.

While tubes are "old school", the tone they produce from guitar amp speakers is still a lot more pleasant to the guitar player's ear..especially when you overdrive them, like some guitar players do into distortion. 

Distortion on a tube amp still sounds better to the human ear because tubes produce more even order harmonics. vs transistor (amps) that will clip when over driven and produce odd order harmonics, which is basically a harsh sounding square wave instead of a sinusodal musical wave. 
Another problem with tubes (besides being stored in a equipment trailer at extreme temperatures in the winter (-20c), is that they wear out. Especially if used on stage by professional musicians at high volumes. So these amps require a lot more maintenance than an equivalent transistorized amp of the same wattage. 
Generally speaking, no one would try to use a cold amp right away cooled down to -20C outside temperatures, same as with an electric guitar.

These have to be warmed up to room temperature before using, so normally stored at extreme cold is not a problem, if sufficient room temperature warmup is allowed.

Some musicians will play THOUSANDS for a hand wired boutique amp with the right choice of musical instrument speakers.


----------

