# dating & money



## donald

I'm wondering what cmf thinks about single & wealth building for a early to mid 30's guy!and ''how'' to handle "this"?

I have been foucusing on building wealth and a business(ive been like this for @least the last 6 yrs)Ive downsides to a appartment and have been able to live on about 35k a yr(draw just about 80kish a yr(tax effective),also leave about 30-50k of cash in my business)and have been able to build up a substantial sum(all things condsidered)just shy of 1/2 a mill now(300k portf,200 k business capital) on basically middle classish income.

My problem is the women im dating(one ive just stared to) zero assets....abit of debt.....and in that age range where houses,babies,marriage....CONsumer products,spa...shoes ect are a reality!(late 20's)I dont want to be a ''miser" or a ''frugal" outsider but everytime i start dating someone i feel like im going to leave my independent wealth building behind!(i know cmf aint like this)but its like if i play my cards right by my late 30's i should be a millionaire(if im single....and able to act independently)

Im just not sure how many women are into this frugal/investing/business/live below the means things?I dread this because it seems like this is what could derail me.

To meet a young women who has the same outlook seems like it is going to be a challenge....Im not sure i have a question as much as just sharing.At the sametime i dont want to share with a women ''right'' away my plans ect....unfounded fear?Girl im dating works at a high-end hair salon(think she prob makes 50k)Just always feels like im way more liquid than the women im dating.....maybe i need to find a PF babe lol.Not saying im a rich guy but im on my way......every late 20's girl i date seems to have very little.RANT i guess

Wish i meet a women in my early 20's.....feel like this is the roadblock im going to have to face,dont want to be single but also dont want to ruin what i got going on.thoughts,anybody hear what im saying.


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## Daenerys Targaryen

This is just my opinion, but if you are in your early 30s, debt-free and have half a million dollars in liquid assets, you are in an unusually strong financial position. Not many women in thier late 20s will have this in common with you. Honestly think about how you feel about this difference in net worth. Even women who are highly educated often have a negative net worth in their late 20s, if this is a situation you can't handle than recognize that from the beginning of the relationship. If net worth is that important to you than maybe you should look at dating older women. 

Your post goes in a few different directions, you seem annoyed that the women you meet aren't in the same financial situation as you are, that is one thing, but you also complain about not being able to meet a woman who shares your financial outlook and values. This is a completely separate issue. There are lots of women who are in their late 20s who are frugal, but who are not wealthy, or at least wouldn’t seem wealthy compared to you. I'm not sure if this is the sort of woman you are looking for, but if it is, they are out there. 
I find the easiest way to change the types of people you are dating is to change the way in which you meet potential dates.


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## donald

Not annoyed about women and dating(love women)The thing that i think about is:The way im going about ''my'' lifestyle ie:saving 40kish a yr ect.

If i find a serious realationship-appartment living will likely be over-maxing rrsps/tfsa and a non reg acct will be over ect

I have a large savings base.....but my income isnt that crazy.

Its just feels like the goal(trying to become a millionaire-In liquid,which is the scared cow,not re included)is actually with in sight.

It would just suck to have it in view.....and than maybe not-big mortgage/maybe babies/2 cars/ect

Its interesting but i think it would be easier for me to ''make'' on my own than couple up---i know money aint everything!!Ive always wanted to be rich(ever since i was a kid)ie:more than middle class


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## Compounding1

It sounds like you need to decide what's more important to you. Career and saving as much money as possible. Or settling down with someone who has similar values (recognizing chances are no where near your financial situation) as you and starting a family or whatever it is you want in a s/o. Is being a millionaire by a certain age more important to you than having a wife and kids etc?


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## donald

No,becoming a millionaire isnt the end all,be all.
I should clarify that the business capital i have is untaxed---so it is atleast 30-40k shy of 500k
I dont know what i want
To be honest i didnt think im that ''wealthy''--im 33

The only reason i think about wealth building more ''intense'' is because i started a business from scratch @ 26---blue blue collar(contractor)and only achieved a g.e.d

Listening to all my teachers and authority figures(and a old boss)tell me i aint going to make it--quite honestly it aint about the $$(ive scraped,and clawed)

Guess i just worry about ''life-style" inflation and the cash drian a serious realtionship would bring.

Tooken me 15 yrs to save this(starting at 8 a hr,1998ish)want to see it through.

arent we all here to build wealth?


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## Sampson

What happens when you reach $1M?

Does the yearning for companionship and desire to find a partner providing a long term relationship disappear?

The financial goal is good, but don't let that guide your life and desire to find or obtain other goals in your life. Presumably you fear the chance of losing everything you have built for the sake of a relationship - that is a risk you face, but hopefully you will be able to assess any future partner for the likelihood they do not share you goals and dreams. There is a risk to love, and only you can decide if it is worth while.


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## Four Pillars

I agree with Daenerys. Try to find someone who has a similar financial values/outlook as you, even if they don't have much money.

If you are on the extreme end of something and looking for similar partners, you are really reducing the pool. Ie an executive making $500k/yr probably shouldn't hold out for someone similar.


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## brad

There was a revolting (to me) article in the New York Times recently about people who screen their dates according to their credit scores. The story led off with a beautiful, intelligent woman who went on a date with a guy who seemed perfect to her; they got along well and had lots in common, but then he popped the question: what's your credit score? She didn't know her score, but she knew it wasn't good because she'd been late on some credit card payments and missed a mortgage payment or two. That was the end of the date. It seemed awfully short-sighted of the guy, because past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future results, even when it comes to spending habits and debt. 

As Sampson says, there is a risk to love. If you feel it, you need to have the courage to follow it and accept the risks. If your partner loves you back, she will have to find the courage to meet you partway, understand your priorities, and make compromises. Both of you need to make compromises; that's a given in any relationship. If you're not willing to take the risk, and to be willing to compromise, you'll just be a lonely man who's money-rich but happiness-poor.


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## peterk

So it sounds like you want to find a woman who is still young enough to have kids (<30) but also has significant assets so that she will be able to completely pull her own weight financially through the baby making years and not drain all your personal and company funds?

That's gonna be tough, but doable.

First of all, I'd stop right now looking for a woman that will share your frugality. The problem isn't that they aren't out there, it's that there are many more woman out there who will lie to you about what they want! It doesn't matter if there's 10% of women that share you ideal views on family and finances. Because there are 30+% that are willing to fake it 'till they make it (to the church). Much too big a risk.

If I decide to get married and have kids (in my late 30s) it will be either with a wealthy girl, from family money, with a daddy that will pay for most of "our" lifestyle upgrade. Or with a young, uneducated, foreign woman, who is NOT from a western culture where a huge mortgage is the rule, and the wife wears the pants.

I realize I may sound troll-ish when I post about relationship issues, but I'm 100% serious. There's far too much egg-shell-walking when these topics get discussed. This is the internet and it's great that we can be completely candid and politically incorrect about important subjects, and get discussion that you cannot find from the media or your real life friends and family. Any relationship/marriage discussion that doesn't involve the question "What if my prospective partner is a complete liar and is ONLY out to achieve their goals with no thought towards my goals or happiness?" is an incomplete discussion.

Luckily Donald, you're only 33. I think the prudent course of action is "do nothing". Continue to date, save, and grow your business. Your dating prospects at 38 will be the same as 33.


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## Toronto.gal

donald said:


> Its interesting but i think it would be easier for me to ''make'' on my own than couple up---i know money aint everything!!Ive always wanted to be rich(ever since i was a kid)ie:more than middle class


You're an ambitious/hard-working/proud man, and absolutely nothing wrong with that!

However, I think you're somewhat contradicting yourself from a much, much earlier post, in which you wrote that you missed the 'traditional' role of men & women, ie: working husbands/stay-at-home wives. You also noted that you had trouble adjusting to certain gender-egalitarian ideas, or femenism if you will. Nothing wrong with having traditional views, I do as well in many respects, hence I'm more of a neo-traditionalist than a perfectly modern woman, ie: I like past & present elements, as times have changed whether we like it or not, and accordingly, we have to adjust, and not be stuck in melancholy.

All that you need to do is find someone who appreciates/loves/respects you, and hopefully share the same beliefs/rituals/values as well. Piece of cake, eh?! :hopelessness:

A question: how would you feel if you found a woman that earned more & had more assets than you? Would you date/marry her or not?


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## Toronto.gal

peterk said:


> 1. First of all, I'd stop right now looking for a woman that will share your frugality.
> 
> 2. If I decide to get married and have kids (in my late 30s) it will be either with a wealthy girl, from family money, with a daddy that will pay for most of "our" lifestyle upgrade. Or with a young, uneducated, foreign woman, who is NOT from a western culture where a huge mortgage is the rule, and the wife wears the pants.


1. Such a person could have many other wonderful qualities! Just because someone is not frugal, does not make him/her greedy/irresponsible.
2. Good luck with that. I wonder what your definition of 'uneducated' is. :rolleyes2:


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## MoneyGal

Also; a partner can be an asset to your business even if he or she does not bring cold hard cash to the table.


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## Toronto.gal

Exactly!

You can hire your spouse to do the books Donald, and this can be done from the comfort of one's home! :encouragement:


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## financialnoob

Instead of asking for her astrological sign, you could ask for her net worth statement... :hopelessness:

Finances are an important part of a relationship, I certainly agree. Spending habits, saving habits, money goals, all those things can cause friction in a relationship. But comparing assets seems a bit too much.

You deserve a ton of credit for what you've accomplished at such a young age. It is not the norm, especially nowadays when university costs have sky-rocketed and entry-level jobs suck and most people are still paying off their student debt until they're 30. However, you also have to figure out what is more important in a potential partner. Do you want someone who is just as focused as you are in terms of money habits? Is that the most critical thing? Because I would worry if you ever run into a rough patch financially, and her #1 focus is on your net worth...

At the same time, I'm not saying go marry the first poor girl you meet either. But you really need to think about all the things that are significant in a relationship. I'd rather be with someone with similar values instead of similar assets. And quite frankly, it'll be tough enough to find ANYONE you can live with for the rest of your life (or who can live with you, as my wife likes to say) before even discussing finances.

I think you're taking a waaaaaaaaaaaaay too logical approach to dating. Nothing about love is logical, nothing. You were able to save a lot of money by being rational and logical and intelligent. But this is a different world where those things don't always apply. Sometimes, just depends on the day and time and phase of moon.

Bottom line is it isn't just about what you think; it's about what you feel.


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## YYC

peterk said:


> If I decide to get married and have kids (in my late 30s) it will be either with a wealthy girl, from family money, with a daddy that will pay for most of "our" lifestyle upgrade. Or with a young, uneducated, foreign woman, who is NOT from a western culture where a huge mortgage is the rule, and the wife wears the pants.


This is a depressing outlook. What's the point of getting married if you're only in it for power and control? Marriage should be about wanting to spend the rest of your life with someone, not worrying about if they're only going to try and screw you over later. If you can't bring yourself to trust someone that much, then I don't think marriage is the right path for you, period.


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## donald

T-gal,my mom(think your italian?right)she does my books(my dad also work in my business)So it is a ''family" affair so i wont need any outside help(nor would i want that)I would want complete seperation.

(i feel middle class)grew up middle class,friends and peers are middle class,some off my employees(its a small business)are somewhat low-wage earners(i dont abuse them,pay slightly better than market wages in my sector and my competitors)

Im not looking for a silverspoon women(keep in my i dont have high education,wealthy family are not big into contractors--you got to be white collar ect)

I know logic doesnt exist in realtionships ect.....that why im on guard,im not even sure where im going with this(keep in mind the girl i just started seeing has no clue,though i have picked up the bill twice)

There is no way to screen a women standing/habits ect-that is why this is wierd,i feel like having a ''money'' talk but when the hell do you do that(bad taste)

For the record i dont ''think'' im that loaded....im 34 in may and have worked all my life(had a nice windfall on my first home and have had 2 striaght yrs of record business,economy is good where i am)

Like i said a chunk is tied up in my business and another chunk is tied up in my rrsp(so it aint like it completely liquid)Dating and money is def different in your 30's-in my 20''s i never thought about the money issue.


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## Four Pillars

Just to add on to what others are saying - you are a very productive person. You work hard, make decent money, accumulate assets etc. You might be better with someone who is also productive, but in different ways to complement your own.

For example if you married a teacher, she would have a steady paycheck (vs your uneven income) and will get a defined-benefit pension (vs your self-directed pension).

Another example would be a stay at home spouse who stays productive and does all the things you don't have time for - keeping a nice house, shopping, errands, kids stuff (if applicable) etc etc.


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## Barwelle

financialnoob said:


>


^ This made my day. Thanks. 



Toronto.gal said:


> 1. Such a person could have many other wonderful qualities! Just because someone is not frugal, does not make him/her greedy/irresponsible.


True... but IMHO, a potential mate's frugality should still weigh in to some extent. If one person is super frugal, and the other spends like mad... how will that work? It sounds good because they balance out, but I think it would cause many arguments down the road. 

If I were OP, I still would discount the women he meets who live beyond their means. That's not to say women with debt, because as others point out, that debt may just be from mortgages or lots of education that would (hopefully) pay off in the long run. But if she's working a low paying job with little room for advancement and drives a Lexus and wears fancy jewellery, spends more than she makes without regard for the future... it's not a good match.

Love is not logical, but marriage (or its equivalent) should be.


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## Feruk

I think you've missed a key element in your analysis. When I met my lady she was 50K in debt (car, CC, student loans) living paycheque to paycheque. The problem wasn't saving habits, it was a lack of understanding the NEED to pay that debt off and that a lot of her money was going to waste on interest payments. The financial education simply wasn't there. That's what I brought to the relationship. Today she's dealt with the CC debt, and is seriously pounding away at the car and student loan debt. I'd argue that the majority of people don't budget properly (see: 160% debt), and a lot of that comes from a lack of understanding. Educate and there's a good chance you'll solve the issue.


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## Toronto.gal

donald said:


> (think your italian?right)


European roots, but not Italian, so you were warm. 

When you get married, and as your parents age, your wife might take their role of the business, no?

*Barwelle:* you're speaking about extremes. No need to be frugal to be sensible/responsible & vice-versa.


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## donald

That is exactly what i want four pillars,your last line!I want a women that works but i dont want a women who ''makes'' me ''work'' ie:after business hrs(shopping,cleaning ect ect)Reason i am a traditional person likely has to do with the fact my mom is italian(lol)

There is def a shift with women wearing the pants(several of my friends have realtionships like this)No offence to women but i dont want any part of that!will not have any part of that(prob why im single)

A life of dating and semi serious realtionship would be great(problem is,as i have found out)gen x women dont dig that lol(after a few mths)

Bottom line though is:its tough out there!I watch my friends and i gotta say alot of them arent having that much fun(and money is always the key point-along with the constant chores)i cant operate that way(have no problem making money though and providing safety ect.....maybe im old school


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## Beaver101

How about looking at your parents for some sort of guidance as to what you want from a relationship and eventually who you want to spend the rest of your life with? Was it money, love, sincerity, understanding that kept them together all these years? Or was it money, inpatience/intolerance or betrayal that split them apart eventually? Just my 2 cents.


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## Toronto.gal

donald said:


> 1. That is exactly what i want four pillars,your last line
> 2. no problem making money though and providing safety ect.....maybe im old school


1. I know, that's why I reminded you that you're a traditional man! :biggrin:
2. Old school/traditional, is all good [with some flexibility in the mix].


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## Spudd

donald said:


> I want a women that works but i dont want a women who ''makes'' me ''work'' ie:after business hrs(shopping,cleaning ect ect)


Good luck finding a woman who works full time but won't ask you to do any household chores! In fact in my household the roles are reversed, I work full time and my husband only works on/off contracts. When he's off, he does all the housework. When he's working, we split it based on whoever has more time at home. I hope you don't expect any future wife to work full time plus take care of all chores, that's just unreasonable. 

Anyways, there are definitely women out there who are financially sensible, and lots who aren't as well. I would personally look first for love, and if I find it, then determine if the financial compatibility is there. There's no good finding a financially compatible person who fits some checklist, but you're just not that into her.


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## andrewf

Sounds like you want a maid, not a wife.


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## Toronto.gal

Not exactly a maid.

If the man is working all day, and providing for all [he said he had no problem 'providing money/safety'], then why should he not expect a home-cooked meal & a clean home when he gets home tired [if wife does nothing outside the home that is].

I'm sure if Donald afforded/bought a big house, he would gladly pay for a house-keeper [but would still want wife to cook his meals, unless the helper was Italian with good cooking skills].


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## Young&Ambitious

financial noob, loved the picture you posted! 

$50k for a hair salon sounds really good, maybe too good? Anyhow, my hairdresser and I, we're both young 20's (below 25 as in) and we talk about finance books and investing and financial goals etc. My point is, people can be financially sound in any industry. And I can appreciate your intention, you don't want to go falling after someone who does not share your financial interests. After all, money is the number one reason for divorce (que Gail Vaz-Oxlade's Til Debt Due Us Part)! I wouldn't agree with asking for a credit score or balance sheet on a first date, but a few dates in ask about their approach to money in a non-interrogator manner. Ta da.


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## Cal

You will eventually find someone with similar interests/values. :encouragement:


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## marina628

Donald ,
My husband grew up in family business(HVAC) and if I can give you any one piece of advise is to never think about having your future wife working for your business.That brings in a new set of issues ,make sure you know how to make all that yummy food like home made sauces ,grilled peppers and of course the wine .These traditions you have to keep over anything else.
I would think finding a woman who has a full time job and can keep herself should be enough for a starting point.Rather than speak about credit scores you can discuss some goals you may have for the future ie discussing the RSP Deadline and how you cant go crazy on the entertainment bill for next couple months ,then you can ask if she saves RSP .There are creative ways to extract details without being too obvious or offending anyone.If you are dating more than 6 months there definitely should be no secrets on debt,Assets on other hand I believe you can be vague about these things .


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## Hawkdog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCXhl5as8Qk&list=PLJBb0Zi6bNWrjy45OIexCpjz-sqeNOI4Z

 Maybe Victoria is available now?


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## Toronto.gal

marina628 said:


> if I can give you any one piece of advise is to *never think about having your future wife working for your business.*That brings in a new set of issues...


Never say never!

Though you make a valid point, it can also work just fine; I know many in such situations.


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## Pennypincher

If you are just dating someone, and never living together, it shouldn't be too big of a deal about the differences in net worth.

If you are planning on marrying and having kids, you need to find someone who shares the same values as you. It would be easier and nicer if they had a similar net worth and outlook on saving... but it's not as likely. Marriage and kids is about a partnership and sharing a dream. Often the women in Canada make career sacrifices when they have kids and stay home with them, even if it's just maternity leave. 

You do have a point though - you don't want to be in a relationship with someone who has no clue or intention of saving money. It's pretty important. I joke to my single friends that they need a credit report from their dates. A friend of mine who has horrible spending problems and zero net worth in their early 30ies has just gone through a divorces from an equally irresponsible spouse ( with two kids from the marriage). Both of them are now out dating people with similar financial problems. Not smart. Someone has to change.

I hope you find someone. I know a few people who are in the same boat as you.


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## Hawkdog

If you meet someone you click with, work on the saving part later.
I was a horribly bad saver 10 years ago before i met my wife, she has since whipped me into shape, now she calls me cheap.


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## Sampson

How do you propose to find a woman, who will bring significant financial assets to the table (presumably through hard work and fortune like your own story), yet wants to stay home, do chores, and take care and raise your family.

Woman who have become financially successful this early in life (presumably you also want someone younger than you) aren't the type of people that sit at home. Look at the financially savy and successful woman on this board, most have children, but many continue to have very successful careers and aren't likely to perform all the traditional roles. Seems you need to evaluate what you want, and what reality is.


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## 44545

Everyone has to decide what their "deal breakers" are in a spouse. I couldn't put up with a spendthrift, regardless of whether they were funding their spending themselves or asking me to fund it.

Eventually, bad money habits _do_ end up affecting the spouse, for example when a shared vacation gets delayed or cancelled due to one person not having the money, or the saver paying for both tickets. Maybe not for some people but that would make me very resentful of the other person.

I can tell you this: there are people who share my view and who share your view on spending and saving. Try eHarmony. Not even kidding about that; it beats random meetings at bars. Alternately, take a night class (photography? fly fishing?) or a sports group (martial arts, curling!).

Don't be afraid to ask really difficult questions on a first or second date. "Kids/no kids" is one that I ask on a first date. That and attitudes toward money may as well be discussed up front. You can agree not to move things forward before developing an attachment the other person. 

One thing: absolute assets aren't the issue. Dating someone working a minimum wage job could work out. It's about attitude. Do they save their dollars or are they out eating/drinking/shopping their earnings away every weekend?


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## donald

Just to cliarify im not looking for a doormat!!(i actualy like/prefer....strong personality)Andy my friend im not lookiing for a maid!

Dont want cmf thinking im a old school guy who thinks like this(maybe a women who is a freelance/runs her own side business or is a ''part'' time consultant or something along those lines)

Could be a huge assets(if one work with there wife)not disputing that....thou family business is tough @ the best of times(that would be a easing in process if she joined me)she could do books/sales/safety ect.

thanks for the replys.Getting abit of track.....


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## Sherlock

I'm surprised no one brought up the possibility of a girl pretending to be all you want, then dumping you and taking half your money. If I were you that would be my primary concern. If you have 500k and a girl has nothing and she moves in with you and gets knocked up, that's it, she can leave you and take half your money (plus child support and possibly alimony).

An article that may be interesting: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ionship-you-need-an-agreement/article2396229/


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## Toronto.gal

Sherlock said:


> If you have 500k and a girl has nothing and she moves in with you and gets knocked up, that's it, she can leave you and take half your money (plus child support and possibly alimony).


Right, most women are such crafty gold diggers, and the men never do anything wrong; always use protection; always tell the truth, blah, blah. :rolleyes2:


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## Sherlock

LOL I didn't say that, I simply think someone who has significant assets should be very careful, regardless of their sex.

P.S. Google "oopsing".


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## peterk

^ I brought that up. But most seem to feel *love* is the primary decider in relationships and that girls pretending to be what you want until she gets the ring isn't a legitimate concern.

Donald: You seem especially vulnerable, as you run your own business and risk losing half of that (i.e. dissolving the business) with a separation. At least an employed man won't lose his job after a divorce. Tread carefully my friend. Be pragmatic.


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## dogcom

Toronto.gal said:


> Right, most women are such crafty gold diggers, and the men never do anything wrong; always use protection; always tell the truth, blah, blah. :rolleyes2:


T.Gal just ask NBA players and you will probably find the majority of gold diggers are women. Having said that those NBA players don't seem very smart and the women sure are smarter picking up the easy money.


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## donald

Peter...Im ok when it comes to that(business assets ect)i would prob set something up(if i was serious with someone and living with before the time line)I would shelter the business capital.

My mom does the books(uncle who is a c.a does my business taxes and legals ect)Its a family business.I not sure what i would do if a women came @ me,but god help her......I would sit down with my uncle/mom before hand.....she would have to bring it,because i would bring it twice as hard and said women would get a life lesson(if anybody [email protected] with my business,that(it)is like a child)


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## Toronto.gal

dogcom said:


> T.Gal just ask NBA players....


LOL, the loyal type?

If women are the only crafty little devils, what are the men, just victims? Men don't impregnate the women? Men don't abuse/steal from rich women? 

What are some of the leading causes of divorce? Money you say? What about abandonment/infidelity/drug abuse/lack of respect/physical abuse? Only women do those things?

What about murders & rapes, who commits these crimes most?

If men are so concerned to be taken to the cleaners by members of the opposite sex, why don't you all marry wealthy women, or uneducated immigrants as one poster suggested here? 

Poor guys, you're the only ones with big concerns. Sigh.


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## dsaljurator

I ran into this today tgal, along the same lines as your post: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ Kind of eye opening for me, a lot of things i had never thought actively about.

With regards to the actual topic at hand, it seems like donald has a sanish approach. Not telling women about your assets and not living beyond your means will make you an unlikely target for the subset of women that might try to 'oops' you (as a previous poster put it). It seems like you should be talking about financial outlooks, plans and frugality with women you are dating fairly early. And if you're really thinking you want to settle down sooner rather than later i'd say you need to have frank discussions about that kind of stuff within the first month or so. And those discussions should not be led by you, they should mostly be you asking questions and listening. Really though, if you've spent any sigificant amount of time with anyone, you can probably get a reasonable idea about how they treat money. Most people wear those opinions pretty loudly.


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## uptoolate

Definitely agree with the above post. Keep your assets under wraps in the initial phase of relationships and just be observant. People usually show their stripes in many ways. It shouldn't be too hard to discern someone's world view by investing a month or two of time with them. And talk of marrying 'uneducated immigrant' women is demeaning and rather silly. Do we really think that people brought up in less affluent areas of the world (eg Eastern Europe, southeast Asia) don't know what the 'good life' is and aspire to it. And the moment you are married or cohabit for a period or a child is involved then what's yours is ours is theirs. Don't over think it. Get to know someone by keeping your eyes open and learning about them just as they will be learning about you. Compatibility for the long haul is about way more than money but it is certainly good to be close to being on the same page or at least reading from the same book. Good luck.


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## Young&Ambitious

Sherlock said:


> LOL I didn't say that, I simply think someone who has significant assets should be very careful, regardless of their sex.
> 
> P.S. Google "oopsing".


Sherlock! When I read your prior response I was like ahhhh enough with the gold-digger comments! Men as a whole aren't saints y'know!! I appreciate the oopsy and I must say that just because someone has money does not mean they're a prize!


----------



## financialnoob

peterk said:


> ^ I brought that up. But most seem to feel *love* is the primary decider in relationships and that girls pretending to be what you want until she gets the ring isn't a legitimate concern.
> 
> Donald: You seem especially vulnerable, as you run your own business and risk losing half of that (i.e. dissolving the business) with a separation. At least an employed man won't lose his job after a divorce. Tread carefully my friend. Be pragmatic.


Unless it's an arranged marriage, love should be the primary decider. Otherwise, it's a business partnership, at which point, you can be much more open about your choice of partners.

I'm not saying the potential for a gold digger isn't there, but a large part of it is controlled by how we go out and meet girls. I hate it when guys buy girls drinks just to talk to them, and then fancy expensive gifts and vacations early on in a relationship, and then wonder why she focuses on their money...hmmmmmm... :hopelessness:

There is no 100% guarantee of anything working out regardless of how much research you put into it or what criteria you use to select a mate, because we're all human, and we all change over time. You could find the perfect person for you today but ten years from now, both of you have grown in different ways and then you've become strangers. Or you could marry someone you're not totally compatible with but somehow grow into each other and become stronger over time. Sometimes you make great decisions and they just won't work; sometimes you do stupid **** and it all works out.

So personally, I think it's more important to find someone you truly connect with, someone who loves you as an individual, and someone who considers your assets a by-product of the person you are rather than as part of defining who you are. What I mean by that is that they love your intelligence and your driven nature and your focus more than the money it produces; the money is just a natural outcome of those characteristics you have that they love.

For all the talk of gold diggers and tricking and whatnot, I'd think if you marry someone whose main focus is the financial bottom line, you're marrying someone whose main focus is the financial bottom line, and that may be just as, if not more dangerous.

BTW, for those who liked that comic I posted, it's from XKCD: A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.

http://xkcd.com/


----------



## Toronto.gal

dsaljurator said:


> I ran into this today tgal, along the same lines as your post: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ Kind of eye opening for me, a lot of things i had never thought actively about.


Welcome to the forum *dsaljurator!*

It most certainly still is a man's world in many respects!

Nothing surprised me in above comments, as men, with their different brains from women, are daily eye openers, lol. 

As James Brown sings in his song: 

*This is a man's world, this is a man's world.
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl.*

The song's lyrics, which Rolling Stone characterized as "almost biblically chauvinistic", attribute all of the productive work that goes on in the world to the male gender, but allows that it would all amount to "nothing without a woman or a girl."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_a_Man's_Man's_Man's_World

So guys, don't ever let your guards down, and *be afraid, very afraid,* muahahahaha.


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## loggedout

I fell in love and I'm engaged to a woman that is in debt, whereas I'm debt free, but not doing nearly as well as you (I'm turning 33 in a month, and my net worth is 340k or so - but that includes pension/RRSP). I never thought I would marry someone so different from myself. I always wanted to marry rich, but it's rather difficult lol especially if you're not part of the same social circles. I think in my relationship, it was important for me to understand what choices and circumstances resulted in her debt and to know that she wasn't with me because for material reasons. Her life has been rockier than mine, and her family has gone through things that my family did not have to, so a lot of her debt is just the result of trying to help her family and get herself educated, so I didn't take it as an indicator of someone who makes poor choices. She has a plan to eliminate it in 5 years and I'm confident that she will. I offered to help her, but she's been adamant that would make things messy and didn't want to start our life together under such a circumstances.


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## Daenerys Targaryen

Congratulations loggedout! Its nice to hear that you found someone to love and share your life with.
Best of luck with your upcoming marriage!


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## peterk

All the same.......... get a prenup.


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## donald

Sounds like you found the perfect women.Keep in mind the reason I have alot is because I've never known a steady paycheque.I'm freelance(private homeowners,selling roofing)and a now(finally)after yrs have steady work from a few homebuilders who I'm in with.
It's just in last couple yrs its paying off....but I could very well run into major issues(being self employed can be brutal)as much as I'd hate to admit it alot of my money saving is out of fear.(sometimes dream of what it would feel like to work for a big corporation,pension,benefits,ect)I have none of that.I will definitely be getting a prenuptial though!!lol


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## Beaver101

Yes, only fair - works both ways. Ie. not just the dude would have more assets than the dudette. :biggrin:


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## Sherlock

I work for a big company and have no pension. Benefits? So we get some medical expenses paid, big whoop, healthcare is free in Canada anyways. I don't see the difference between working for a big company and being a freelancer in that regard. The majority of Canadians do not have pensions through their company. I have worked at several different companies including a small startup, a mid-sized company, and now a large one, and at none of them did I get a pension. Not even RRSP matching. One company offered some kind of equity sharing program but it amounted to peanuts.


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## donald

I guess what i mean is ''structure"I cant plan anything because i have know idea what is comming down the ''pipe''I prob would not have any savings/investments ect ironically if it wasnt for having such a unpredictable/erratic income.Im very similar to how a farmer would operate.

Having six figures in a business acct literally means ''nothing'' because of a host of reasons(that capital is untaxed also,and budgeting for my business @least for me is double what it is like budgeting personally)I wait 45 days on my 2 large contracts(i always have to float---large sums come in and until i get the next say 30-45k i have my payroll for those jobs +materials/rental space/gas ect ect)It is forced delay gratification,and there is always money drians on unexpected crap ie:tools/repairs/safety ****/mis-calculating materials on jobs(that arent on the quote,work-order,which i ''eat'' because they are bids,i cant turn around and do alot of change orders,because they have me by the balls---they dangle that voulme slant ect)

Im going way of topic---sherlock it would be just nice to have that ''feeling'' of ''knowing'' exactly what is coming in!I cant/could never budget(i can personally)my business.

The simplicity of recieving X amt of $ every 2 weeks(and not having a large unpredictable future expenses)seems like''heaven"I aint complianing its the nature of my work----i had to get my wisdom teeth out last yr that cost me 2 grand(and i spend like 250 every 6 mth,cleaning ect)getting 2 for one stocks(that is huge)db(that is huge)and lets face it-how many people have to take there work home with them?(they get to be ''cozy'' because the buck never starts/stops with them(9-5,weekends at the lake ect)Im not sure what point im making but----i have zero balance/structure in my work life(i never can get away from it)Im ranting...its not unique----Some people think owning a business is a ''dream" it can be emotionally exhausting.


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## peterk

Once you're stable enough to pay yourself a steady salary though what's the difference? If you were merely the employee of a small company like yours you'd be at an even greater job-loss risk, it just wouldn't feel like it because you wouldn't know a thing about it until you got the layoff notice. You'd be at the complete mercy of someone else's ability to manage a small company and keep you working. At least now you can have confidence that YOU control YOUR outcome...


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## donald

Well i am @ the mercy somewhat of a ''small'' company(2 of them)they make up to about 35-40% of my business(and every job i do for both i have to submit quotes ect,so even though they do/have given me steady work i am fully aware my other competitors approach,and im not navie they likely ''check'' from time to time)The other 60% are on referals/new business(sales)

Another thing is my main crew i hire(works for others and myself)and were always negotitiating on $(we have a ''fixed sheet of #s but always things come up on said jobs)Its just sometimes hard to keep everything going(im learning mangement)Im a bit of a ''case'' of the E-myth(i was a trades person 1st)Business is tough,can be tough(clients can be unreasonable tough also-ie:chiseling on the bill)

Anyways i dont have to worry about this girl----Somehow after 2 dates we ended up in ''texting'' land ect(push/pull-passive aggresive)thing....i cant get there anymore with her.


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## travelgeek

Was doing a search, came across this thread, and wanted to comment. My situation is almost similar..... mid-30's, house paid off, with plenty in savings. The woman I have started dating is in her mid-20's, in grad school, tons of debt, part time work here and there, looking for full time.

I have been a saver and wealth builder since these values were taught to me in high school. I have kept myself relatively debt free through university by working part time and summers. As much as I can, I postpone purchases until I have saved enough to pay it in full. On the other hand, she is the opposite, buy now, figure out how to pay later. Since this is the early stages of the relationship, will have to get to know her more over the next little while. As suggested from earlier posts, I have not made her aware of my financial situation.


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## Jon_Snow

How did I miss this thread? Donald's story is very interesting. Thankfully I'm more than ten years removed from the dating scene, having met and married a woman whose outlook on life matters, financial and otherwise, almost exactly mirror my own.

Those who are a bit familiar with me on this board are probably aware that for a just turned 40 year old, I am in an enviable financial position - and there is no way in hell I would have acheived this if not for my wife. There is no doubt, that finding my current life partner was the point at which my life started to become MORE - I speak here of the financial aspects because of the nature of this forum - but of course there is so much more than that to a great marriage.

For those of us who have managed to find the "one" let us be thankful. 

And good luck in your search, Donald.


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## Sherlock

travelgeek said:


> Was doing a search, came across this thread, and wanted to comment. My situation is almost similar..... mid-30's, house paid off, with plenty in savings. The woman I have started dating is in her mid-20's, in grad school, tons of debt, part time work here and there, looking for full time.
> 
> I have been a saver and wealth builder since these values were taught to me in high school. I have kept myself relatively debt free through university by working part time and summers. As much as I can, I postpone purchases until I have saved enough to pay it in full. On the other hand, she is the opposite, buy now, figure out how to pay later. Since this is the early stages of the relationship, will have to get to know her more over the next little while. As suggested from earlier posts, I have not made her aware of my financial situation.


I'd be very careful... if you get married, your money becomes her money and her debt becomes your debt. What is she going to school for? If she plans to become a doctor or pharmacist or engineer or something like that, it's less of a cause for concern than if she is studying art or english lit or something. If you read The Millionaire Next Door one of the biggest commonalities among the millionaires is a spouse who shares similar values when it comes to savings/spending, you're unlikely to become well-off by marrying a liberal spender unless you make a very high income.


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## donald

Thanks Jon,I'll be turning 34 next mth and haven't had anything serious in over 3 yrs(dating here and there,if that is the right word)I'm not even sure i want to get married.I've kind of set my own sail and im not sure i could/want to ''compromise" or navigate marriage/kids ect ect(ive got a handful of friends were there marriages at least from the outside and through talking)sound like hell,lol,and it is true what they say money is always @ the root of all of things.
Your lucky you found what you found in a women.Even finance aside,relationships are a lot work,i question if they are worth it.(i don't want to be ''wrong'' or unaware of what i did wrong twice a week,jk)
Of my friends and peers most seem to have gotten into a worse financial situation----life style inflation being the main one(the new suv,new house to join the jones,clutter,kids.......just seems so stressful and not a whole lot of fun.(hear about it over beers all the time!)


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## Nemo2

Sherlock said:


> you're unlikely to become well-off by marrying a liberal spender unless you make a very high income.


As the old joke goes..."She made him a millionaire.....but he was a billionaire when they met".


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## Squash500

Nemo2 said:


> As the old joke goes..."She made him a millionaire.....but he was a billionaire when they met".


 LMAO.....excellent joke.


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## Squash500

travelgeek said:


> Was doing a search, came across this thread, and wanted to comment. My situation is almost similar..... mid-30's, house paid off, with plenty in savings. The woman I have started dating is in her mid-20's, in grad school, tons of debt, part time work here and there, looking for full time.
> 
> I have been a saver and wealth builder since these values were taught to me in high school. I have kept myself relatively debt free through university by working part time and summers. As much as I can, I postpone purchases until I have saved enough to pay it in full. On the other hand, she is the opposite, buy now, figure out how to pay later. Since this is the early stages of the relationship, will have to get to know her more over the next little while. As suggested from earlier posts, I have not made her aware of my financial situation.


 IMHO people don't change. Either your a saver or a spender. I would proceed in your relationship with extreme caution. Good luck!


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## jcgd

Squash500 said:


> IMHO people don't change. Either your a saver or a spender. I would proceed in your relationship with extreme caution. Good luck!


I wouldn't count on people changing, but they can if they want to. I was a huge spender before until one day it hit me that I wasn't living how I wanted to and I changed my ways. I had lots of debt, no savings, and so much crap that I felt like I was drowning. I think my girlfriend was a big influence towards cleaning out the clutter but now she generally spends more than me and I save more. I've been slowly clearing the debt and clutter from my life and I feel so much more free. And now I actually have money for the things I really want. I just consider a purchase for a few weeks to make sure I want it and I no longer have buyers remorse. 

So, I changed, and my change was extreme. But nobody forced the change... it was something I wanted. My partner accepts my views on money and doesn't really impede my ability to save, but she doesn't spend a ton either. She more of a moderator and keeps me from becoming a money hoarder. I'm certain that if I were single I would hoard my money.

With her in school full time we are still able to live off about 75% of my take home pay when things are tight. This includes saving for tuition and such. The other 25% goes to debt but I'm almost free of it. When things aren't tight we live off closer to 50% of my take home and we generally put the extra on debt or splurge a little on vacations.

I don't think two people must match perfectly, or things can get skewed one way or the other (not necessarily a bad thing). But with two financially healthy people you can have a nice mesh that keeps things balanced.


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## travelgeek

Sherlock said:


> What is she going to school for?


Masters of Education.

Thanks to everyone who replied. I've definitely got something to think about.


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## randomthoughts

The only divorce I know, it was the female who worked for all the assets and the guy who took half. So it's not really gendered but really just an issue whenever there is a financial inequality. I've kind of opted out of the dating game - it doesn't match up with my need for rational simplicity - too much risk for a reward that I don't want. (Hell, I can't even handle a busy social life...)

But I think it's important to recognize if you DO want a partner, kids, etc. and then strive to make it happen, even if there are significant risks and uncertainty along the way. Then if things don't work out, hopefully it was a learning experience and you consider trying again. Sort of like a series of failed business ventures before becoming successful.

Oh, and having a partner with a DB pension can always be considered an asset, so if she becomes a teacher...


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## Hawkdog

Squash500 said:


> IMHO people don't change. Either your a saver or a spender. I would proceed in your relationship with extreme caution. Good luck!


I have changed from spender to saver, or as my spouse would say trained. She calls me cheap now.


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## Squash500

I just took out a great book from the library today on dating and money. It's by Kevin O'Leary...entitled Cold Hard Truth On Men, Women, and Money. KOL sure tells it like it is...that's for sure....LOL.


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## travelgeek

Squash500 said:


> I just took out a great book from the library today on dating and money. It's by Kevin O'Leary...entitled Cold Hard Truth On Men, Women, and Money. KOL sure tells it like it is...that's for sure....LOL.


there are 106 holds on that book at TPL!


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## Squash500

travelgeek said:


> there are 106 holds on that book at TPL!


 I took out the book as a 7 day best bet loan. TG I really think that you would find this book very useful.


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## Jaberwock

Donald - a loving relationship is worth more than all of your money.


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## donald

I get that jaberwock.I don't know what's in the cards for me regarding my love life but I also am not naive!I'm envious of anyone who is lucky enough and fortunate enough to have meet there "soul"mate or whatever the terms is.
My love life has been dysfunction at best since I was a young guy(I've had a few unhealthy relationships.....co-depenent,I always/still(even knowing better)have chased the "bad" girl,I feel more comfortable without a huge amount of intimacy,which cause some problems(34 yrs old and I'm still not good with it)
I'm like the eagles-im also going for the queen of dimonds when the queen of hearts is your best bet!
To be fair I'm not the "best"catch likely in some key areas.....this is a money forum so I'll leave it at that!


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## Jaberwock

I am over 60, and after I lost my first wife I dated women who were in their fifties, all of whom were much worse off financially than me. 
I have been very lucky to find another wife who brings me much joy and happiness. I don't mind supporting her, and sharing my money with her. 
As you say, perhaps you should be going for the queen of hearts instead of the queen of diamonds. Don't act like you have money to burn, you will attract the wrong types, and you won't know whether they are interested in you or your money. 
Stay away from the "gold-diggers" and the "fashionistas". If she shows up in a new designer dress every date, shops in Holt Renfrew and expects you to take her to expensive restaurants every day then you have the wrong woman.


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## donald

I should say(@least to me)I don't think I qualify as loaded(I'm not that young and I do have a business)
I'm a blue collar guy,some days I have tar on my hands or sawdust on jeans drive a truck with a toolbox ect so on any given day in my interactions I'm very low key(high maintance women wouldn't even give me the time of day if they are gold hunting,though I do clean up well after work)
I hate fashionistas,and brand wearing women so that ain't much of a problem,I've sabatogage a few beginnings(marriage material)and get caught chasing women I know I shouldn't(challange,its immature and I know it leads to nothing and I'm getting habit too old now for that)
My main problem is time(I work long hours,I'm up very late at night sometimes)and than after work and everything I don't have the energy and I got to do all the chores,I just want to find a women who is a "multiplier"in my life and I'm better for it.The absolute worse thing is comming home from a business day and needed to veg or just decompress and instead getnagged on or put to "work"(I'm not trying to sound like a *** but I've expierenced and its common)I adore women but sometimes its easier without that(the post honeymoon phase)


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## arrow1963

This is an interesting topic, as it's clearly very personal for a lot of people.

If there's one commonality amongst financial forums, and the comments sections of the major newspapers, it's this:

Personal Finance commenters hath no fury like a man divorced.

I don't think there's any issue that has made me cringe so often at online posts. I have no idea if the Canadian legal system is as biased against male higher income earners as is argued, but I can't count how many times I've thought "that guy is slightly unhinged, at it's hurting his credibility".


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## donald

What do you mean arrow?''that guy is slightly unhinged,at it's hurting his credibility"?
I look at it this way(2013)you have at best odds a 50,maybe 60% chance of staying married for the rest of your life(starter marriages are not uncommon)
I can't think of a more important decision in life than the one of choosing wisely in who you would marry.
I/anyone could spend 15 yrs building a business/investments/rentals ect(or whatever)make the wrong choice and with in 2 yrs lose half..........that does not sound like a ''great'' risk/reward.
Would a guy have the will to build it back up again?Would he have the same drive again as he had in his younger days?
You see these types(jodi arias types)that can be highly seductive and clean you out(not trying to sound like a nutbag)are society isnt like the 60's anymore(seems normal to have a divorce under your belt in life,sad but true)


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## cainvest

Seems like a simple solution, why not just share your life with someone without ever getting married or living together?


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## donald

In theory that is simple!In real life?that does not work(i've tried being ''casual",it works for a few mths but women aren't that keen on the idea!lol)esp late 20's/early 30's women(ahem.....tick,tock,tick,tock)I'm sounding bitter and cynical(i'm not)i should prob drop this.......where is travel g?


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## arrow1963

donald said:


> What do you mean arrow?''that guy is slightly unhinged,at it's hurting his credibility"?
> I look at it this way(2013)you have at best odds a 50,maybe 60% chance of staying married for the rest of your life(starter marriages are not uncommon)


The decision of who you marry is self evidently an important decision. However, I'm suggesting that in many cases, the men who comment on this issue online display retrograde opinions of both gender roles, and of the contributions of different members of a relationship to their joint success. My understanding is that the law views married couples as equal contributors to a couple's success, regardless of their employment situation. You don't have to scratch deep to find a different view in many of the divorced men who contribute to these discussions, where it quickly becomes 'what's mine is mine'.

My comment didn't refer to any particular comment in this thread, certainly not the last comment. Divorce is relatively common, though I think you'll find that if your statistic overstates it's prevalence. Almost 80% of women who marry and who hold an undergraduate degree see the marriage last to 20 years.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...religious-faith-help-marriages-surv/?page=all


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## donald

The ''joint'' success'' or ''equal contributor's'' is a fair point and i would see no problem in that.It is what you built before marriage is what would concern me.That is like building a business as a sole proprietor for 15 yrs and than having a joint partner join you when things are a success,yr 15.(not there in the early struggles ect)and than offering equal equity.If you look at marriage strictly from a business state of mind.No business founder in sound mind would offer equal share.For some reason it doesn't apply to ''marriage'' that same reasonable stance.
I do believe the ''legal'' system is bias,i think there is inequity and discrimination towards men in the court of law(i read kevin's book)that **** scares me.


----------



## cainvest

donald said:


> In theory that is simple!In real life?that does not work(i've tried being ''casual",it works for a few mths but women aren't that keen on the idea!lol)esp late 20's/early 30's women(ahem.....tick,tock,tick,tock)I'm sounding bitter and cynical(i'm not)i should prob drop this.......where is travel g?


Yes, it actually does work in real life, our 10th anniversary is coming up in a few weeks! They are far less common and very independent, have already had kids when they were very young (maybe divorced) or don't want kids at all as their career is the focus. They are out there, you just need to look harder plus you need to be up totally up front with this or disaster will be coming your way.


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## Toronto.gal

Jaberwock said:


> Stay away from the..."fashionistas".


Well, some women like to look classy & fabulous, and nothing wrong with that if they and/or spouses [not boyfriends] can afford it!


----------



## Toronto.gal

donald said:


> 1. society isnt like the 60's anymore(seems normal to have a divorce under your belt in life,sad but true)
> 2. you have at best odds a 50,maybe 60% chance of staying married
> 3. i've tried being ''casual",it works for a few mths but women aren't that keen on the idea!lol)esp late 20's/early 30's women(ahem.....tick,tock,tick,tock)
> 4. You see these types(jodi arias types)that can be highly seductive and clean you out(not trying to sound like a nutbag)


*1.* From what I hear, it all began around that time, that is, changes in [moral] values if you will.

*2.* And do you believe that it is the women who are responsible for the majority of divorces? I don't have statistics, but I would say that males are the ones that tend to, more often than not, be the abusive/alcoholic/dishonest/disloyal ones, and the ones who typically abandon their families for other women, etc., etc., so you see, women have more to worry about than men, who seem to only worry about their $$$$$$$$$$$$$$s, in some cases, worth less than women, in not only $$, but in the character & intelligence departments as well.

*3.* You have called yourself a 'traditional' man, so you're not criticizing here the women who may not want to have children out of wedlock, right?

*4.* Donald, you [males] play an equal, if not *bigger* role in the 'seduction' game. However, you're now describing & discussing evil & murder, not 'gold-diggers' anymore, hence your example is in poor taste, and even offensive for a 'dating & money' thread.

If you're going to bring psychopathic female killers from the news as examples, I would argue that most such criminal psychopaths are men, who not only abuse & kill women, but also children, so it's not only men who are victims! I'm a fan of the show *Dateline*, which investigates true crime stories [unlike the various mind-numbing copy-cat crime type shows that are on t.v.], and where I actually followed Arias' case before and after conviction; such a show based on true stories, do in fact, portray that such brutal crimes by females as per the example you noted, are indeed rare, unless you want to convince us *with statistics as proof*, that more women butcher men in intimate relationships than the other way around [not even mentioning non-intimate/stranger scenarios here to stay on topic with your thread].

*'According to Hare, ‘psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts and shattered expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret’. * [sounds more female to you?].

Here is Robert Hare's Psychopathy Checklist, which might interest you:

*Factor 1:* Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

- Glibness/superficial charm
- Grandiose sense of self-worth
- Pathological lying
- Cunning/manipulative
- Lack of remorse or guilt
- Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
- Callousness; lack of empathy
- Failure to accept responsibility for his or her own actions

*Factor 2:* Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle."

- Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
- Parasitic lifestyle
- Poor behavioral control
- Lack of realistic long-term goals
- Impulsivity
- Irresponsibility
- Juvenile delinquency
- Early behavior problems
- Revocation of conditional release

*Traits not correlated with either factor*

- Promiscuous sexual behavior
- Many short-term (marital) relationships
- Criminal versatility
- Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy


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## Toronto.gal

Here is an intelligent 'fashionista'; I think those are books, not shopping boxes. :love_heart:


----------



## Toronto.gal

Squash500 said:


> I *just took *out a great book from the library today on dating and money.


If you just took it out, how can you say it's a 'great book'? :02.47-tranquillity:

I like Mr. Wonderful, but my next book to read will be Sheryl Sandberg's [former GOOG Executive & current FB COO] 'Lean In'. 

Note that I'm not a feminist per se. 
http://www.amazon.com/Lean-In-Women-Work-Will/dp/0385349947


----------



## Squash500

Toronto.gal said:


> If you just took it out, how can you say it's a 'great book'? :02.47-tranquillity:
> 
> I like Mr. Wonderful, but my next book to read will be Sheryl Sandberg's [former GOOG Executive & current FB COO] 'Lean In'.
> 
> Note that I'm not a feminist per se.
> http://www.amazon.com/Lean-In-Women-Work-Will/dp/0385349947


 It's not a very long book...only about 250 pages. My favorite chapter in the book is entitled Divorce, Remarriage and Gold Diggers--LOL.


----------



## Toronto.gal

Squash500 said:


> 1. only about 250 pages.
> 2. My favorite chapter in the book is entitled Divorce, Remarriage and *Gold Diggers*--LOL.


*1.* How many pages had you read when you described the book as 'great'?  I'm teasing now, so no need to answer. As I said, I like KO very much, so I plan to read it eventually [for entertainment value mostly].

*2.* In that case, definitely a book that a few men here need to buy/read ASAP then, and not wait to borrow from library, because by that time, they may have fallen for a dangerous gold-digging seductress, so tell Donald what chapter addresses the above mentioned so he can get to it molto presto! :biggrin:

Speaking of books, anyone read Amanda Lang's *'The Power of Why'?* I have to read a few reviews first, because the beautiful/intelligent fashionista gets on my nerves sometimes.


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## m3s

Divorce is the new norm in the west.. girls now wonder what's wrong with you if you're not :highly_amused:


Here's how I see things... First the guy is the one putting on a glamour show to persuade a girl to hook up with him. Once she gets a taste of oxytocin, the guy no longer needs to put on any act but the girl is now usually trying to convince him she's _the one_. After the marriage, the deal is signed and the roles change again. Except this time nobody is trying to impress anyone anymore, while many seem to have expected something different than they got. Who's fooling who here? *Let's face it, you don't as often see guys choosing girls because they appear wealthy now do you..*

Most of my friends have already married and probably half of those are already divorced before 30 (and half of their future pension gone?..) These were not psychopathic guys or gold-digging girls from any stretch of the imagination. Just your typical Canadian 20-somethings with good educations and stable jobs. Guys quite capable of functioning on their own and doing their own laundry, feeding themselves, cleaning up after themselves, plus maintaining their car and doing yardwork/renovations etc. A lot of the divorces seem to be a mutual disagreement, as if they just we're ready. I could have been married young as well but it was foolish at that age imo

I'm all for equal opportunity in the workforce.. Women in my job are paid the same to do the exact same thing.. (well, the physical tests were just recently standardized) There is a lack of women in the leadership, so any potential candidates are highly encouraged and sought.. the opportunity is definitely there. Lots of guys take paternal leave now as well. The current trend seems dysfunctional to me though. Kids are farmed in daycares and then shuttled to extra curricular activities at night. Both parents work long days and then have little time for themselves. No wonder divorce is so common.. 

Everyone jokes about western women being the boss of the households today. Maybe they've just taken on too much of a role in this new "equality" age, being a boss is stressful. We learn a lot about leadership in our workforce but it seems all of that is thrown out the window in homes? You don't see as much micromanaging anymore at work as their seems to be in western homes. Management does not equal leadership. *Things have obviously changed for the better since the 50's, but I think there is a lack of good role models to emulate in this new hierarchy*

I find it very refreshing to meet women from other cultures. It's just different. Outsourcing is a whole other issue though, if you want something different you're best bet is to move :highly_amused:


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## Jaberwock

Some years ago, we hired in our company, a young lady who used to come to work every day in a different outfit. Each one an expensive designer outfit with matching shoes and bag, and jewelry. We never saw the same dress twice in the eighteen months she worked with us. That works out to over 300 designer dresses, with all the trimmings. I am guessing about $150,000 worth of clothing and accessories. She earned about $20,000 a year. I am sure her husband was busting his gut to keep up with the credit card bills. She looked great, but she had nothing but air between the ears. That's what I call a "fashionista".

A woman who dresses with style, and makes herself attractive doesn't qualify as a fashionista. She has to go to extremes, and pile up the debts to earn that handle.

And those are shopping boxes, you can't fool us by saying they are books


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## Toronto.gal

Jaberwock said:


> 1. those are shopping boxes, you *can't fool us by saying they are books.*
> 2. We never saw the same dress twice in the eighteen months she worked with us. That works out to over *300 designer dresses*
> 3. Each one an expensive designer outfit. I am guessing about *$150,000 worth of clothing and accessories*.
> 4. *I am sure her husband was busting his gut *to keep up with the credit card bills.
> 5. She looked great, but *she had nothing but air between the ears*.


*1.* Seriously, where is your sense of humour? Silly me, I thought women liked to read in sexy hills, LOL.

*2.* 18 months = approx. 375 working days, so your math was not all that bad. :biggrin:

*3.* Unless you're a fashion [fabric/price] connoisseur/critic, or the office 'fashionista' wore visible labels with ticket prices not removed, you sure made a lot of assumptions. Could you tell the difference between vicuña/synthetic wool? How about Mulberry silk vs. polyester? Sometimes it's difficult to recognize natural vs synthetic fabrics. $150K in clothes in 18 months? With her low salary, she would have had a very low credit limit, and if hubby had been able to afford such expenses, she would likely have spent all her time shopping rather than working for $20K a year, don't you think? 

*4.* All those nice examples of women in just a couple of days; first Jodi Arias, who didn't 'clean out' the boyfriend, Donald, but who shot him in the head/stabbed him 29 times and slit his throat even after he was dead already [and why it had been an extreme brutal case to bring up in this conversation]. And then there was the poor 'fashionista's husband, who 'for sure' was 'busting his gut' to pay that $150K. :rolleyes2:

*5.* It almost sounded as though you had a bit of an obsession with the well-dressed young lady. FYI, it's very possible to wear affordable designer clothing, so don't assume next time you see a well dressed woman, that she must have maxed her and hubby's credit cards, or that she must have 'air between her ears' for having fashion sense [unlike the disheveled appearance of many {men/women}]. 

http://www.jny.com/Womens-Suits/22962169,default,sc.html


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## peterk

Toronto.gal said:


> All those nice examples of women in just a couple of days; first Jodi Arias ... And then there was the poor 'fashionista's husband, who 'for sure' was 'busting his gut' to pay that $150K. :rolleyes2:





Toronto.gal said:


> I don't have statistics, but I would say that males are the ones that tend to, more often than not, be the abusive/alcoholic/dishonest/disloyal ones, and the ones who typically abandon their families for other women, etc., etc., so you see, women have more to worry about than men, who seem to only worry about their $$$$$$$$$$$$$$s, in some cases, worth less than women, in not only $$, but in the character & intelligence departments as well.


At least they were _actual_ examples............... :rolleyes2:


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## donald

I brought up jodi arias as a reference to the eagles song-''queen of diamonds''Travis drew a queen of diamonds.Everybody knows a friend/family member/acquaintance who clearly has his ''hands'' full.It's the parrell i was using(bad example)
Just like women can spot a ''a-hole'' after a first date or at a gathering,men can also spot ''trouble''(sometimes the other head does the thinking t-gal)
When i see a label forward women/well dressed i just think she might be a little self-centered/arrogant ect(don't know till i met her though)Just like when maybe a women see's a man and he is jacked with muscles a women might think he can't read/write.......i guess it is the first impressions(we all make snap judgments)


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## Toronto.gal

peterk said:


> At least they were _actual_ examples............... :rolleyes2:


Actual? Jaberwock's case was based on pure speculation on his part, so hardly a valid example; he probably wouldn't recognize a $3K Dolce & Gabbana silk dress from a $50 polyester Sears/Winners label. His assumption that the woman [real or imaginary] was spending $8K+ a month on her wardrobe, and on a $20K yearly salary [even speculating on hubby's salary], was nothing but absurd. 

Donald's case was not about 'dating & money' at all, but about a psychopathic killer.

To summarize the topics discussed here thus far:

- when it comes to gold-diggers, sure there are shameless cases [women being the majority].

- when it comes to violence, men perpetrate most of it, not just against women, but against men & children as well. 

- when it comes to money & power, men still rule, hence neither of the above points are surprising.


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## Toronto.gal

donald said:


> 1. i was using(bad example)
> 2. (sometimes the other head does the thinking t-gal)
> 3. well dressed i just think she might be a little self-centered/arrogant ect
> 4. women see's a man and he is jacked with muscles a women might think he can't read/write


1. I know your intention had not been to offend per se.
2. You don't say?!
3. With that mentality, you might be missing out & hurting yourself in the process [know the person b4 u speculate & judge].
4. Oh no, I don't judge a book by its cover.


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## none

Am I right ladies????

http://www.mtv.com/videos/zz-top/34025/sharp-dressed-man.jhtml


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## Toronto.gal

I much prefer the fashion/hair-cut/musical style of Michael Bublé over ZZ Top.


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## none

Toronto.gal said:


> I much prefer the fashion/hair-cut/musical style of Michael Bublé over ZZ Top.


Well i guess in some ways we are very different people


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## Jaberwock

Toronto.Gal - The young lady in question was real, not imaginary. And she did have air between the ears. We tried very hard to help her upgrade her work skills, but we were all very happy when she found herself a job with one of our competitors.

As for the designer clothes, I have to admit I am straying outside my area of expertise. Shopping is definitely not my strong suit. I like to quote a line from one of D.H Lawrence's plays - "It is a brave man who goes into a shop"


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## Toronto.gal

Jaberwock said:


> 1. but we were all *very happy when she found herself a job with one of our competitors.*
> 2. As for the designer clothes, I have to admit *I am straying outside my area of expertise*.
> 3. I like to quote a line from one of D.H Lawrence's plays - *"It is a brave man who goes into a shop"*


1. Thanks for the good chuckle! 
2. Now, that's honesty I can believe! I'm here if you need help. 
3. You mean going into a Victoria Secret shop?:biggrin:

Will Canada’s La Senza survive next to more productive, ‘sophisticated’ U.S. sister Victoria’s Secret?
http://business.financialpost.com/2013/02/26/canada-la-senza-victorias-secret/


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## Ponderling

You. Donald, sound a lot like me, when I was 25. Had my professional engineer designation, a third share in the house I lived in, with a good chunk put down, and RRSP account contributed to to the max each year, and no credit card debt.

Met my future wife- she had none of the saver mentality, and had and unpaid loan of 10K to finance her car from her dad that had stalled for many months, and oodles (18 or so) of credit cards/store account cards (not so common now) , although not too much outstanding on them.

We openly spoke about what activities we could do together to enjoy each others time, and not spend a lot of money doing it. 

I furthered my savings, and she started to become educated (not just from me) that you don't have to spend everything you make. A year later she had discharged all but $3k of the loan , and the rest was paid back by june after she had got a lot of her RRSP contributions caught up. 

We dated for a few years, lived together for a few more years, and have been legally married over 19 years now.

I am busy with my job, and with family responsibilities as a husband and dad. She worked, took 6 years off to be an at home mom when the kids were little, and resumed work, but in a different career.
She still looks out for interesting things to do. Frequently they require a commitment of time, not money, like communty theatre productions. 
I cannot imaging working like mad for the past two decades, without haveing a family to share it with.

We are planning an early retirement in 5-10 years, and appear to be on track to do that, so we can spend more time together, as well as enough time apart.


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