# What rate of return do you expect for retirement?



## bettrave

Hi,

What rate or return do you expect, until the "end"?

Thanks


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## Fain

bettrave said:


> Hi,
> 
> What rate or return do you expect, until the "end"?
> 
> Thanks


9-10%


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## HaroldCrump

It will vary with asset allocation.
During the accumulation year, a higher % of equity allocation _should_ generate a higher return.
During the retirement years, fixed income will most likely be a higher % of the portfolio and expected return should be lower.

It is hard to come up with averages without knowing risk tolerance, asset allocation, investment horizon, etc.


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## bettrave

My asset allocation is inspired by CanadianCouchPotato.
Since, I will retire in about 25 years, I own more stocks indexes and less bonds.
25% CDN (VCN)
25% US (VUN)
10% INT (XEF)
10% Reit (XRE)
5% EMER (XEC)
25% bonds (XBB + XSB)

I expect to withdraw money during retirement for 25 years.
I used 4% annual return.


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## HaroldCrump

bettrave said:


> I used 4% annual return.


Is that real return or nominal?


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## bettrave

HaroldCrump said:


> Is that real return or nominal?


Nominal


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## fraser

I would be very happy with 5 percent over the rate of inflation. Four over would be a target. Not sure if this will be sustainable but we can only be optimistic. These past few years have been very good. High returns, low inflation.

Very advantageous when looking at it from a sequence of returns perspective-which we are.


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## MoneyGal

fraser said:


> I would be very happy with 5 percent over the rate of inflation. Four over would be a target. Not sure if this will be sustainable but we can only be optimistic. These past few years have been very good. High returns, low inflation.
> 
> Very advantageous when looking at it from a *sequence of returns perspective*-which we are.


:eagerness::eagerness::eagerness::eagerness:


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## OptsyEagle

If you are shooting for anything less then 4% you should seriously look at buying a life annuity and let the insurance company worry about the rate of return. 

In that scenario you just need to worry about how you are going to live till you are 166 and bankrupt the insurance company.:biggrin:


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## HaroldCrump

OptsyEagle said:


> In that scenario you just need to worry about how you are going to live till you are 166 and bankrupt the insurance company


Judd recently had a full medical check up. 
When he returned 3 weeks later after the exhaustive lab tests were complete, his doctor said he was doing "fairly well" for his age. 
Judd was obviously a little concerned about that comment and so asked his doctor 
"Do you think I'll live to be 100, doctor?" 

He replied, "Well, do you smoke or drink?" 
"Oh no", Judd replied, "I've never done either." 

Then the doctor asked, "Do you eat grilled steaks or barbequed ribs? 
Judd replied, "No, I've heard that red meat is very unhealthy." 

"Do you spend a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf?" asked the doctor. 
"No I don't," Judd replied. 

Then the doctor asked, "Do you gamble, drive fast cars, or mess around with women?" 
"No," said Judd, "I've done none of those things."

The doctor looked at Judd and said, _"Then why do you want to live to 100?"_


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## Jagas

I use 4% actual rate of return for planning purposes but expect/hope to beat that.


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## My Own Advisor

I'm hoping for a real return of 4-5%. I would like to get that from dividends and some capital appreciation. I figure 4%+ will be perfect for my annual withdrawals and retirement expenses without touching the capital very much.

I figure owning 40-50 big chip stocks from Canada and the U.S. should come close to real return.


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## pwm

I retired on May 01, 2005. I just did a report in Quicken which shows an average annual return of 8.77% since that date. I'm almost 100% allocated to stocks or stock funds. No bonds at all, but I have some REITs and Pref shares which I consider fixed income. I was pleasantly surprised to see that number, since I got hammered in the 08/09 panic. Of course I didn't sell anything, sat on cash and started buying again in January 2009. (Too soon as it turned out. It was a false rally. I should have waited until March.)

Anyway, I don't expect that kind of performance going forward from here. I use 4% after inflation in my calculations. That's a realistic number to expect.


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## GoldStone

Historical and expected returns for various asset classes

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Historical_and_expected_returns

Mix asset class returns in proportion to your asset allocation. It's a simple calculation. You get an estimate for an entire portfolio.


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## uptoolate

I'd be very happy with 4% real return for the entire portfolio.


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## lonewolf

Aprox 30 years from now I will be looking to buy some annuities to lock in high interest rates @ the top of the 30 year cycle if the system is still intact.


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## OptsyEagle

lonewolf said:


> Aprox 30 years from now I will be looking to buy some annuities to lock in high interest rates @ the top of the 30 year cycle if the system is still intact.


Good luck with that. People have been trying to do that for the last 20 years.

That being said, keep in mind, as you get closer you can always lock in the rate you think is peaking, 5 or so years in advance. Just buy the annuity, but with the first payment 5 years in the future, etc. If you save more money after that, buy another annuity at the current rate then. My point is that you do not need to wait until the day you retire and then take whatever rate they are offering at that time.


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## MoneyGal

As you age, the interest rate becomes an increasingly smaller function of the return on an annuity.


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## Beaver101

MoneyGal said:


> As you age, the interest rate becomes an increasingly smaller function of the return on an annuity.


 ... so when purchasing an *annuity*, it pays to be super-frank with the insurance company to declare that you smoke, drink and do substance abuse. :biggrin:


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## MoneyGal

No, it makes zero difference. People who smoke and drink (and smoke crack) don't buy annuities, and insurance companies use life tables based on high life expectancies (this is the "moral hazard" problem in insurance sales).


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## fatcat

MoneyGal said:


> No, it makes zero difference. People who smoke and drink (and smoke crack) don't buy annuities, and insurance companies use life tables based on high life expectancies (this is the "moral hazard" problem in insurance sales).


right, so you are saying they don't actually run anything like one of those life expectancy scenarios based on your health, weight, smoking etc ?

they just sell it based on the idea you will live to the average age, correct ?


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## MoneyGal

They actually sell it based on an assumption that you will live longer than average. Each insurance company has their own life tables, and annuity prices will be based on multiple factors including their experience providing annuities. 

Life annuities are not underwritten and the price does not vary with the purchaser. Two 65-year-old men will pay the same amount for the same income even if they have very different health statuses.


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## Beaver101

MoneyGal said:


> They actually sell it based on an *assumption *that you will live longer than average. Each insurance company has their own life tables, and annuity prices will be based on *multiple factors *including their experience providing annuities.
> 
> Life annuities are not underwritten and the price does not vary with the purchaser. Two 65-year-old men will pay the same amount for the same income even if they have very different health statuses.


 . .. and just what are those assumptions based on? and the multiple factors used in coming up with their own life tables?


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## MoneyGal

How are annuities priced? each insurance company will price annuities based on factors including how interested they are in providing annuities, interest rates, their existing book of business, their outlook for the annuity part of their business relative to the other parts, their outlook for the annuity part of their business relative to their overall economic outlook (including interest rate projections, changes in solvency requirements), etc. 

Life tables are estimates of life expectancy for people of different ages and genders. Every life insurance company will have their own life tables. The life tables we see from Statistics Canada are for the overall Canadian population, for example. As the population that buys annuities is different from the overall Canadian population, each company will create its own table using its own statistics and projections of life expectancy.


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## olivaw

I conservatively estimate a return of 3.5% and Inflation at 2%. (Is that 1.5% over inflation?). Our allocation model is 50% stocks, the rest is bond/GICs/cash. My wife and I decided against an annuity because we can't find an inflation indexed annuity.


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## Belguy

What is the minimum withdrawal percentage from a RIF at age 72 and how does this relate to your expected rate of return for one's RIF portfolio?


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## AltaRed

Belguy said:


> What is the minimum withdrawal percentage from a RIF at age 72 and how does this relate to your expected rate of return for one's RIF portfolio?


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...te-yearly-minimum-withdrawals/article8200669/ 

It does not relate to anyone's expected return. It is designed from an actuarial perspective to essentially deplete an RRIF by a certain age.


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## MoneyGal

It's worth noting that the RRIF minimums, implemented in 1992, deplete a RRIF much more quickly now than they would have in 1992 (if you can follow the logic of that sentence). 

Interest rates were higher and life expectancies were lower - there are quite a few people and organizations advocating for a re-think of the RRIF minimums to reflect current economic and demographic conditions. See for example http://www.cdhowe.org/tax-rules-put-retirees-at-risk/26395

The 1992 rules replaced the previous rules which fully depleted a RRIF at age 90.


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## steve41

Here is a 72 yearold with $500K in his RRIF. He wants to project the maximum constant lifestyle (i.e. budget) such that he makes it out to age 100 at which point his capital runs out.

http//:www.fimetrics.com/richard-rrifguy.pdf


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## Synergy

steve41 said:


> Here is a 72 yearold with $500K in his RRIF. He wants to project the maximum constant lifestyle (i.e. budget) such that he makes it out to age 100 at which point his capital runs out.
> 
> http//:www.fimetrics.com/richard-rrifguy.pdf


Interesting website / tool. I wonder if there's any good free planning tools that would chart things out like RRFImetic


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## Belguy

Gordon Pape suggests taking out an annuity at around age 80 to help to insure that you don't have to get by on less in your old, old age. This may not be necessary if the RIF withdrawal rules change.


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## heyjude

MoneyGal said:


> It's worth noting that the RRIF minimums, implemented in 1992, deplete a RRIF much more quickly now than they would have in 1992 (if you can follow the logic of that sentence).
> 
> Interest rates were higher and life expectancies were lower - there are quite a few people and organizations advocating for a re-think of the RRIF minimums to reflect current economic and demographic conditions. See for example http://www.cdhowe.org/tax-rules-put-retirees-at-risk/26395
> 
> The 1992 rules replaced the previous rules which fully depleted a RRIF at age 90.


Interesting CD Howe report, thank you for posting the link. The report makes the point that the government will get its tax money when you die and that they do not need to extract it from you early in your retirement, because, unlike you and me, governments do not die. They can keep it on the books as accounts receivable. In fact, the government might do better by deferring the tax grab, because you and I may be invested in securities that generate a higher return than government bonds. In 1992, the government needed the cash. 

Presumably there is advocacy going on (by CARP and others) to change this government policy.


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## AltaRed

What seems to be forgotten (and its been mentioned before) is just because one has to withdraw from an RRIF does not mean it has to be spent. Some of it can be re-invested in a taxable account. 

The real issue here is the PV of taxes paid earlier than they might have otherwise been with a slower withdrawal rate. I suspect if there was anothe tinkering done with withdrawal rates, the rates would be more likely to change in the latter years, e.g. ages 85-95, as compensation for longer longevity, leaving earlier years alone. Example: moving the 20%/year out to age 95+. The effect would be a good political visual with very little PV difference.


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## MoneyGal

I'm not forgetting the "no need to spend" argument - the issue is "premature taxation," as you've called it. I also note that in addition to demographic changes, the interest rate environment is very different today from what it was when the 1992 rules were implemented. These two changes effectively mean the impact on retirees is quite different from when the current rules were first implemented, although not as a result of any deliberate policy change.


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## AltaRed

I am not sure changes in an interest rate environment should change withdrawal rates. The current (low) short term interest rate environment has been with us for only about 5-7 years. 

Those who restricted themselves to short term bond funds or a 5 year GIC ladder are the ones hurting today, but those who bought 10, 20 or 30 year nominal bonds/strips 10-15 years ago are still doing quite well. Even a long term holder of XBB is still doing fairly well due to the long term bonds still in XBB. Should government react to the particular group of people with short(er) term investments? What should government then do when interest rates tick back up to, for example, circa 2005 levels? It would be hard to reverse policy then. It is a tough place to be.... and probably any change in policy should be restricted to demographic changes.


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## MoneyGal

I'm not sure either; just pointing it out. The impact of interest rates alone is considerable; never mind the longevity impacts. 

There are other ways to reorient the required minimum distributions but I am hoping to be able to point you to a published argument for a specific position in the near term.


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## steve41

How about marrying someone 30 years your junior?


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## Eclectic12

AltaRed said:


> What seems to be forgotten (and its been mentioned before) is just because one has to withdraw from an RRIF does not mean it has to be spent. Some of it can be re-invested in a taxable account...


Or where there is TFSA contribution room available, a TFSA is probably the best.


Cheers


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## cannew

steve41 said:


> Here is a 72 yearold with $500K in his RRIF. He wants to project the maximum constant lifestyle (i.e. budget) such that he makes it out to age 100 at which point his capital runs out.
> 
> http//:www.fimetrics.com/richard-rrifguy.pdf


I'm 72 and glad I don't have to live on the above projection. We are 100% equity (no bonds, funds, preferreds, and etf's) and only invested in Dividend Growth stocks. We have no pension other than CPP & OAS and currently our dividends are almost double those. With DG stocks (dividend income is growing at around 4-6% yearly) I don't expect to draw from the principal unless I wish. Even if there is another 2008\2009 I don't expect our income to drop (in fact during the last one our income continued to increase, but at a much slower rate). As for Gordon Pape's annuities, not likely!


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## Nemo2

cannew said:


> I'm 72 and glad I don't have to live on the above projection. We are 100% equity (no bonds, funds, preferreds, and etf's) and only invested in Dividend Growth stocks. We have no pension other than CPP & OAS


I'm (3 months from being 72) and we're in pretty much the same situation......(pretty much.....we currently have around 43% fixed income and 57% equity), although neither of us, (with truncated work histories), receives maximum CPP.

Be interesting to have a rough appreciation of your annual expenditures vs portfolio value.......(we also haven't, and possibly won't, draw down the principal....but that's not an absolute given)


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## cannew

Annual expense are around $55,000. Pensions are about $30,000 so our dividends more than cover the difference. We don't draw down all dividends but re-invest most.


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## pwm

I've been retired for 9 years now. My annual expenses are only around $35k, which are covered by pensions. As a result, all my investment income just gets re-invested. I've got everything I need, so can't find anywhere else to spend the money. 

My withdrawal rate on my investments is -2.5%.


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## Nemo2

cannew said:


> Annual expense are around $55,000. Pensions are about $30,000 so our dividends more than cover the difference. We don't draw down all dividends but re-invest most.


Our pensions are ~ $19K (my wife will be 62 in October, so isn't yet eligible for CPP)........our expenses last year were just under $41K....this year, with increased travel, it'll likely be ~ $47K


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## james4beach

I'm figuring a medium term rate of return of around 0% to 1% real return. That's based on material I've read from Buffett as well as my belief that we're in a chronic recession/depression with a fundamentally broken financial system


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## Karen

I'm very cowardly when it comes to my retirement money. I receive enough in pensions to live on, so I keep my RRIF, TFSA, and unregistered investment funds in 5-year GICs. My bank gives me their maximum bonus rate, but it's still low compared to many of your investments (my last one was renewed at 2.6%). I expect the next one that expires next month will be renewed at an even lower rate, but it really doesn't matter to me. Barring some world-wide disaster which none of us can protect ourselves from, I won't ever run out of money, so I don't see any point in taking any chances at this stage of my life. If I were younger and in better health, I might think it worthwhile to learn more about real investing, but not in my current circumstances. And I certainly won't be buying an annuity under any circumstances, since I won't need that guaranteed income. I can see the value of annuities for some people, but in my case, I wouldn't deny my daughters whatever I have left at the end of my life by using my money to buy an annuity.


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## cannew

Karen said:


> I'm very cowardly when it comes to my retirement money. I receive enough in pensions to live on, so I keep my RRIF, TFSA, and unregistered investment funds in 5-year GICs. My bank gives me their maximum bonus rate, but it's still low compared to many of your investments (my last one was renewed at 2.6%). I expect the next one that expires next month will be renewed at an even lower rate, but it really doesn't matter to me. Barring some world-wide disaster which none of us can protect ourselves from, I won't ever run out of money, so I don't see any point in taking any chances at this stage of my life. If I were younger and in better health, I might think it worthwhile to learn more about real investing, but not in my current circumstances. And I certainly won't be buying an annuity under any circumstances, since I won't need that guaranteed income. I can see the value of annuities for some people, but in my case, I wouldn't deny my daughters whatever I have left at the end of my life by using my money to buy an annuity.


You sound like my sister. She rolls over her gic's as they come due basically because her pension covers all expenses. I've showed her each year how much money she is loosing if she has invested the gic funds in only 5 solid dividend growth companies. The loss amount increases each year because each of the companies have increased the dividend each year, not to mention the increase in the value of the stocks. The initial yield of the 5 stocks averaged 3.8% initially, four years later later she would be getting 4.8% yield on her funds. 

Your gic interest dosen't even cover inflation and the value of your principal drops each year because of inflation. We are moving for the second time in two years and the cost of the move (same company) was 25% higher even though it took less time and we had much less furniture.

My sister is 76 and I'm 72 (I'm 100% DG stocks, no bonds, gic, mututal funds, etf's and on cpp & oas for pension).


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## Karen

You're absolutely right, cannew - I wouldn't argue with a word you've said. In fact, I knew that someone on the forum would tell me that. However, I am saving at least $1200 every month from my pensions, so my assets have been increasing every year since I retired nine years ago. I could deal with some pretty high inflation rates if I had to, and I'm sure I don't have to worry about. Besides that, remember that I live in the Vancouver area, so my very ordinary 1800 square foot one-level house is worth nearly $600,000.

Another consideration is that I have some serious health problems - I have two mechanical valves in my heart and have just learned that I have a third valve leaking which may require a third open-heart surgery. My cardiologist has told me that I don't have a long life expectancy. I plan to prove him wrong, but, being realistic, I probably don't have to plan on living well into my 90s. So, like your sister, I feel confident that I won't outlive my money, and it's my daughters who will lose out - they won't inherit as much as they might if I hadn't been so cowardly. But there will be lots left for them, and whatever they receive, it will be more than they will be expecting.

I'm 71, by the way.


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## cannew

Best of luck Karen. Haven't been able to change my sisters mind either, but that's not the intent. It's providing her with options and advice. It's really up to each person to live their life the way they wish and invest their money the way that they are happy with or comfortable.


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## Karen

Thanks Cannew. I understood and appreciated your advice; I was just explaining why I handle my finances the way I do. As far as my health goes, I'm not in any pain; in fact, except for a severe lack of energy, I feel great, so in that respect I'm better off than many people my age. I've already outlived the first cardiologist who told me I didn't have a normal life expectancy (he died of cancer), and I've told the new one that I fully intend to outlive him too! He's 20 years younger than me, so he just laughs. I'm 71 and I've had a good life; at this stage none of can assume that we have a long time left. We can hope, but that's all we can do!


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## carverman

Karen said:


> I'm very cowardly when it comes to my retirement money. I receive enough in pensions to live on, so I keep my RRIF, TFSA, and unregistered investment funds in 5-year GICs. My bank gives me their maximum bonus rate, but it's still low compared to many of your investments (my last one was renewed at 2.6%). I expect the next one that expires next month will be renewed at an even lower rate, but it really doesn't matter to me. Barring some world-wide disaster which none of us can protect ourselves from, I won't ever run out of money, so I don't see any point in taking any chances at this stage of my life. If I were younger and in better health, I might think it worthwhile to learn more about real investing, but not in my current circumstances. And I certainly won't be buying an annuity under any circumstances, since I won't need that guaranteed income. I can see the value of annuities for some people, but in my case, I wouldn't deny my daughters whatever I have left at the end of my life by using my money to buy an annuity.


I'm very cautious at this point in my life as well Karen. With my health declining probably needing a personal assistant in the next 2-5 years and a unpredictable future of what lies ahead, I only
iinvest my life savings in a TFSA and as of this years GIC. I decided to try out the CIBC laddered GIC scheme where they pay a slight increase in the rate the longer you invest in them.
In my case, it's a piddly amount of 1.5 % in the first year and 2.56% in the 5th year. With my age and health, as soon as each GIC matures, it goes back into my savings accounts.
This year, I spent a big chunk of my TFSA for replacing the roof, asphalt driveway, some interlock and other small improvements around the house. I could have used some of that $50k I have
in these laddered GICs, but the penalty for early withdrawal is losing all the accumulated interest, so I have to wait until January of each year to get the principle ($10k) + the piddly interest
the banks are paying out.

I have found out this year that investing in a locked in scheme over 5 years is not a good idea from the ROI, but at least it's a safer way of making sure that the money is available to me
each year, to pay for additional health care that I will be needing. It's also a* kind of a bet *with the bank that I will still be around to collect my last invested 10k (in GICs) in 5 years time.

As far as a real ROI..the GIC is a very poor way to invest. The bank lends your money out for mortgages and makes big profits off it, and they turn around and pay you diddly squat on yours,
and then the gov't taxes the interest earned at your effective tax rate...a triple whammy..because with the rate of inflation (higher than the interest paid) and taxation..your money is
eroding over time..but as you say..if I don't need the money or live long enough at my age vs health...my children will get some of it.


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## Karen

I agree, carverman. I simply don't need any unnecessary stress or worry in my life at this stage, and since I know I won't need more money, why would I start learning to invest more profitably now? I probably should have done that when I was younger, but I didn't and, fortunately, things have worked out well for me financially. I know a lot of people who were better off than me during our younger years who are not nearly as well off as I am now - more good luck than good management on my part, I must admit!


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## carverman

Karen said:


> I agree, carverman. I simply don't need any unnecessary stress or worry in my life at this stage, and since I know I won't need more money, why would I start learning to invest more profitably now? I probably should have done that when I was younger, but I didn't and, fortunately, things have worked out well for me financially. I know a lot of people who were better off than me during our younger years who are not nearly as well off as I am now - more good luck than good management on my part, I must admit!


Yes, you are wise beyond your years Karen.

I have a hard time understanding *why we in our "golden years" get ripped off by the banks* (very low interest rates on savings) 

and if you are disabled like I am..*get ripped off on the cost of mobility issues.*..

Especially if I go through the Ottawa hospital rehab..they always overcharge for the item because the rehab doctor, (I suspect this) , is working under the table for kickbacks from the suppliers of wheelchairs and anything else that we need.

I needed a power chair about 4 years ago..because I was having a hard time getting around with my walker. However, because I live in a 2 story house, 
the rehab doctor wanted me to sell my house and move into an apartment, before she would write the prescription for the wheel chair to be covered 75% by the Ontario Adaptive Devices program.
I would then have to pay the 25% out of pocket myself.

When I mentioned about the real estate commission and how much it was going to take out of the equity in my home, she told me *"oh, don't you worry..we have our OWN real estate agents"*..
uhuh!..right and I presume you get a kickback (under the table) in a secret 3rd party account for every "DEAL" you close....I thought to myself.

*So I bought two power chairs.*.one for downstairs and one for upstairs and two stair lifts...problem solved but I had to pay out of pocket myself.


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## humble_pie

Karen you are the opposite of cowardly! the word doesn't even apply to you! on the contrary, courageous, calm & clear-eyed is what you are, a model to us all.

all the financial advice in the world can never add up to a position better than yours. To know who one is & what one has. Then to be peaceful & happy with every detail.


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## carverman

humble_pie said:


> Karen you are the opposite of cowardly! the word doesn't even apply to you! on the contrary, courageous, calm & clear-eyed is what you are, a model to us all.
> 
> all the financial advice in the world can never add up to a position better than yours. To know who one is & what one has. Then to be peaceful & happy with every detail.


Waaaah! <that makes my eyes water...sniff!...<carver wiping tears out of the corner of his eye>

Now..Humble...what about that pie ye be promising me?...arhgh...wait a minute now..let me put on my bikers dew rag ..and...where's my eypatch? 
now don't go off on me. Humble... I'sa adores you..even though I never laid a hand on you..and I'm sure I didn't carry your books home from school..pretending you was married to me...arrgh!..Humble !:biggrin: 
You is the finest a man could ever want!


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## Eclectic12

carverman said:


> ... I have a hard time understanding *why we in our "golden years" get ripped off by the banks* (very low interest rates on savings) ...


Aren't low rates are ... well, low rates?

Someone in their "golden years" might rue it more ... but I'm not aware of any banks offering significantly higher rates to the younger set.


Cheers


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## fraser

The banks are writing 3 percent mortgages. Why would anyone expect a high interest rate on your TD's or HISA's? 

We are about to re-balance. We have been enjoying very high 'sequence of returns' over the past 24 months. This will have an outstanding impact on our retirement. Time to dial it back a little and protect the gains.


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## RBull

^I'm in the same camp.


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Yes, you are wise beyond your years Karen.
> 
> I have a hard time understanding *why we in our "golden years" get ripped off by the banks* (very low interest rates on savings) *...so that the younger set can buy afford to buy their first house, the middle set can upgrade to a bigger house, and the rich can get richer by playing the markets :biggrin: And of course, the bank executives need their "golden" parachutes too. Somebody has to make the sacrifice.
> *
> and if you are disabled like I am..*get ripped off on the cost of mobility issues.*..
> 
> Especially if I go through the Ottawa hospital rehab..they always overcharge for the item because the rehab doctor, (I suspect this) , is working under the table for kickbacks from the suppliers of wheelchairs and anything else that we need.
> 
> I needed a power chair about 4 years ago..because I was having a hard time getting around with my walker. However, because I live in a 2 story house,
> the rehab doctor wanted me to sell my house and move into an apartment, before she would write the prescription for the wheel chair to be covered 75% by the Ontario Adaptive Devices program. I would then have to pay the 25% out of pocket myself. * Paying 25% out of pocket is not too bad but if you're on limited income, every nickel out would count.*
> 
> When I mentioned about the real estate commission and how much it was going to take out of the equity in my home, she told me *"oh, don't you worry..we have our OWN real estate agents"*..
> uhuh!..right and I presume you get a kickback (under the table) in a secret 3rd party account for every "DEAL" you close....I thought to myself. *That's a disgusting conflict of interest. What does a rehab doctor has to do with real estate in the first place? Have you considered reporting her or is she the "only" rehab doctor (specialist?) in town. I would have, nothing fancy, just a 1 page email to her superior or is she's her own boss?
> *
> *So I bought two power chairs.*.one for downstairs and one for upstairs and two stair lifts...problem solved but I had to pay out of pocket myself.


 ... *my comments in blue above.
*


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... *my comments in blue above.
> *


Beav! ..sheesh..how can I reply to your comments when you hijack another person's comments?:biggrin:


Oh well..I'll just have to to it the old fashioned way and copy and paste yours in bleu...



> Beav wrote"
> so that the younger set can buy afford to buy their first house, the middle set can upgrade to a bigger house, and the rich can get richer by playing the markets And of course, the bank executives need their "golden" parachutes too. *Somebody has to make the sacrifice.*


Well they can s*ck rocks! Don't get me started Beav..my comments may be interpreted as an insult to fat bankers everywhere...but they and the divorce lawyers have made enough money off me to last my life time!. 
I put them in the same category...Legal crooks preying off the unfortunate in life. 


Beav wrote:


> Paying 25% out of pocket is not too bad but if you're on limited income, every nickel out would count.


Beav! paying 25% on a $8k wheel chair at the Ottawa hospital/rehab centre is $2,000 out my own pocket. I can buy my own wheelchair...albeit used, on Kijji for $2000...and I did!

Why should I pad the rehab doctor's bank acct, after she refused to write me a prescription for a wheel chair when I still had pensioners insurance (Sunlife) with Nortel..before that
expired 3 years ago. I have since found out from Shoppers Home Health Care, that I could have qualified for the wheelchair IF I had gone to them in the first place back then
before buying mine out of pocket.

The rehab doctor wanted to make some business off me..by booking 3 appts..one to discuss 'putting me in a wheelchair; second to assess me for a wheelchair, third to have a rehab expert evaluate me in one of their "approved" wheelchairs...fourth to come in and have her write a prescription for an approved wheelchair from one of her "approved" wheelchair suppliers.

Can you read "kickbacks" here?

Beav wrote:


> That's a disgusting conflict of interest. What does a rehab doctor has to do with real estate in the first place? Have you considered reporting her or is she the "only" rehab doctor (specialist?) in town. I would have, nothing fancy, just a 1 page email to her superior or is she's her own boss?


How can you prove anything. She has real estate agents lined up in her own pockets. She refused to write me a prescription for a wheelchair unless I sold the house with one of her agents.
Crooked business going on..to be sure. She wanted me to give her my only big asset in life..my house and she would" take care" of me...I walked out from her rehab center a year ago
but before I did..I told her "we are done here"..I will never go back to see her again because I don't trust her.

My other doctor a neurologist refused to give me further IVIG treatments once a month, because she determined my auto immune disease has no cure and "no treatment'..and IVIG
is too expensive a treatment for a disease that doesn't show progress in treatment. I was still walking with a cane/walker in December 2013....now..I have to use a power wheelchair
or scooter...the Ottawa doctors have basically told me.."sorry, we can't help you..you are on your own".

Such is the state of socialized medicine in Canada..going from bad to worse..and on top of that shady dealings between BiG Pharma, and chronic care companies, and the doctors/specialists.
At least, my undertaker has been paid already.


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## cannew

Just buy bank stocks and join the club. Owning any of the major banks for longer than 5 years will probably provide 12% to 15% return, even with the financial crisis. If you were lucky enough to buy during early 2009 you would probably have gotten close to 10% yield on your purchase.


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## Karen

I just saw your post, humble_pie - thank you so much for your nice comments.


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> Beav! ..sheesh..how can I reply to your comments when you hijack another person's comments?:biggrin:
> 
> Oh well..I'll just have to to it the old fashioned way and copy and paste yours in bleu...
> 
> ...


 ... oops, sorry about the c & p work ... was trying to be "quick and efficient" at most employers require workers to be these days :biggrin:

Lawyers, fat bankers can


> Well they can s*ck rocks! ...


 ... LOL! Add in your ex-rehab doctor too. What a <bleeping> crook, never mind of how unprofessional! I would have seriously filed a complaint on her. 



> Such is the state of socialized medicine in Canada..*going from bad to worse*..and on top of that shady dealings between BiG Pharma, and chronic care companies, and the doctors/specialists.


 ... I have to agree 100% .. the medical profession is not what it used to be ... it's all about business and the big $$$ these days. Sad but it's reality.

PS: How can Ottawa's hospital rehab center be charging $8K for a wheelchair (that's really expensive, price gouging) when it's "supposed" to be non-profit?


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## marina628

Light weight carbon fiber /titanium MANUAL wheelchairs run about $6000 these days.I have insurance and was going to buy a new wheelchair cushion and it was $900 which would cost me $180 and my insurance the rest.I found it online for $375.00 USD and you won't believe it but my insurance was not interested in having me buy it and saving the $525.
I am very fortunate that we have good insurance and I can afford these things , I found the ADP very helpful with giving me local referrals for equipment and therapists that will come to my home over the years even though I pay for it myself.Surprised you did not find the same service locally Carver.I bought one of my first wheelchairs through shoppers but found them to be a bit more expensive than their competition.


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ...
> PS: How can Ottawa's hospital rehab center be charging $8K for a wheelchair (that's really expensive, price gouging) when it's *"supposed" to be non-profit?*


LoL! Beav; what century are you living in? 
In this one *it's all about gouging and making a profit*. The medical field is no different..the banks showed them the way. 

You cant report doctors on just suspicion..you have to have proof that will stand up to scrutiny..and the other thing is if you report them, you could be in for a lot more trouble than
you bargained for. I *still* may have to use her someday.


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## carverman

marina628 said:


> Light weight carbon fiber /titanium MANUAL wheelchairs run about $6000 these days.I have insurance and was going to buy a new wheelchair cushion and it was $900 which would cost me $180 and my insurance the rest.I found it online for $375.00 USD and you won't believe it but my insurance was not interested in having me buy it and saving the $525.


I'm not surprised...I can find a lot of things cheaper in the US,,,the problem is that it costs a small fortune to have it shipped to Canada..and for some reason, a lot of suppliers prefer not to ship into Canada.
You can get free shipping anywhere in the contiguous 48 states....but as soon as it crosses the border....better be prepared with a fat wallet.



> I am very fortunate that we have good insurance and I can afford these things , I found the ADP very helpful with giving me local referrals for equipment and therapists that will come to my home over the years even though I pay for it myself.Surprised you did not find the same service locally Carver.I bought one of my first wheelchairs through shoppers but found them to be a bit more expensive than their competition.


I was referred to this Ottawa Hospital rehab doctor ( that runs the rehab clinic attached to the Ottawa Hospital)..by the neurologist. I thought it was all legit...found out later that there was some shady dealings going on...like this power wheelchair denial because I happened to mention that I lived in a two story house. 
When I refused to have the rehab doctor "handle all my health needs" , having some earlier experience with a $2000 rehab centre custom made leg brace, that turned out to be nearly useless..
(had to go back 3 times and it still wasn't right for me..she wrote a prescription and ADP paid $1500 for it..my Nortel pensioner's insurance paid 80% and I paid the rest out of pocket)
..I gave up..threw it in closet for these past 3 years and it hasn't seen the light of day since then!

*I only started with Shoppers after somebody told me they had all sorts of assistive devices and some were covered under ADP.*

I bought my own stair chairs {$5K each x 2) from ACORN..another rip-off outfit!..but didn't have much choice here in Ottawa at that point..I couldn't manage stairs any more..
and the rehab doctor gloated when I told her.. she said "see, you should have come to us..we are here to "help".....Ya sure..help YOURSELF!

While waiting for Para, at the Ottawa Hosp..I wandered into medical kiosk there and was shocked at the sticker prices..$5000 AND UP for a power chair ..one at $8000.....
Similar to the dentists and dental surgeons..my first implant cost me nearly $4700 with the extraction..$70 for a pre op discussion, $400 for the extraction..$500 for the anathestic, $500 for the bovine abutment, $2000 for the post and $1700 for the gold crown.

At those prices..I would need to win the lottery for any further dental work..and I'm now starting my second implant already.:upset:


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## cannew

carverman said:


> I'm not surprised...I can find a lot of things cheaper in the US,,,the problem is that it costs a small fortune to have it shipped to Canada..and for some reason, a lot of suppliers prefer not to ship into Canada.
> You can get free shipping anywhere in the contiguous 48 states....but as soon as it crosses the border....better be prepared with a fat wallet.


100% True!! Just glad we are able to spend 4-5 months in US and take advantage of some savings. Examples: Perfume and Make-up is less than half (no small amount when one looks at the cost in Canada). Once company was willing to send to Canada but the shipping and import fees were more than the product cost.


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## Beaver101

carverman said:


> LoL! Beav; what century are you living in?
> In this one *it's all about gouging and making a profit*. The medical field is no different..the banks showed them the way.
> 
> You cant report doctors on just suspicion..you have to have proof that will stand up to scrutiny..and the other thing is if you report them, you could be in for a lot more trouble than you bargained for. I *still* may have to use her someday.


 ... present century but the mind still reverts back to the prior when my parents were around (no longer). 

I don't disagree with the doctor reporting thing - even you do have proof, they are too well protected anyways. These days, to find a doctor who geniunely puts their patient's interest before the almighty buck is like winning the jackpot, only it's better than winning the jackpot! I always joked with my mom's cardiologist (was in his 70s and already in semi-retirement) that he couldn't expire before she did! And sure enough he didn't until he was in his late 80s way after, some 20 years after she did.


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## GreatLaker

*When you have won the game, stop playing*

Some people say when you have won the game, stop playing. If you have a lifestyle you enjoy and enough money to be confident you won't outlive it, why take unnecessary risk?

If it were me I might still invest in equities because it is interesting but I can understand some people not wanting to.


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## carverman

Beaver101 said:


> ... present century but the mind still reverts back to the prior when my parents were around (no longer).
> 
> I don't disagree with the doctor reporting thing - even you do have proof, they are too well protected anyways. These days, to find a doctor who geniunely puts their patient's interest before the almighty buck is like winning the jackpot, only it's better than winning the jackpot!


Exactly..*you have to have documented proof before you can report any doctor *and even witnesses in some cases. In pretty much all the cases of malpractice (not financial skimming on the side), you have to make a complaint in quadruplicate to the college of physicians first..if they think your case has some merit, they will advise you on your chances of proceeding..if not..it gets tossed in the garbage, nothing happens..
except now THAT doctor and probably any others that know her/him will refuse to take you on as a patient after that.


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