# NDP is going to win Alberta



## none

I'm looking forward to that province dragging itself out of the dark ages. It's been run by old, short sighted white dudes long enough.


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## Plugging Along

You have been readin the polls that were wrong last time too. 

I would bet that NDP will not be the government.


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## sags

An NDP government could enhance the ability of the Federal Government to make Constitutional changes regarding the CPP or the Senate.

It will be a very interesting election, that could change future history for all of Canada.


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## carverman

sags said:


> An NDP government could enhance the ability of the Federal Government to make Constitutional changes regarding the CPP or the Senate.
> 
> It will be a very interesting election, that could change future history for all of Canada.


NDP = New Socialist Party formerly known as CCF under Tommy Douglas.
Co-operative Commonwealth Federation



> Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, a new political organization in Canada, popularly known as the "C.C.F." It was brought into existence at Calgary, Alberta, on August 1, 1932, when representatives of farm and labour organizations in the four western provinces and Ontario met to discuss plans for the formation of a Dominion-wide Socialist party.


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## sags

Be thankful for the progressives..........who laid the groundwork for Canada as it is, a socially responsible democracy.


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## fraser

I think that the polls are purely a reflection of Albertan's well placed lack of trust and unhappiness with the Conservative Gov't. After all, we have had FOUR different Premiers in less than 4 years (Stelmack, Redford, Hancock, Prentice). We have an election that we do not need and cannot afford. Add to this the terrible performance/gaffes by Prentice. Plus the past eight years of broken promises and mismanagement.

BUT.....there are lots of undecided out there and many who said they would not vote Conservative may in fact turn around. Plus, the polling numbers do not reflect down to the constituency level. It is really up in the air. I would say a Tory minority but heck I am never right when it comes to predicting election outcomes.


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## peterk

riiight, the dark ages. The richest province by far with the highest earners, no debt. The fact that we've successfully arrived at this top position after decades of low corporate taxes and a flat personal tax must be killing you, none.

Despite all these polls, I'd bet $100 bucks that NDP still comes in 3rd after Wildrose and PC.


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## sags

I agree that polls are unreliable anymore.

Nobody predicted an Ontario majority for the Liberals. One poll had the PCs in the lead. They must have been polling Hudak's headquarters.

I must admit...........one time I already had an NDP sign on my lawn, when I told the Liberals to go ahead and put up a sign 

Another time............way back when my wife and I first moved in together, I got a call from the Prime Minister of Canada's office..........saying they would be in the neighbourhood and would I be receptive to meeting him at the door. They asked all kinds of questions about the hood etc and I told them all kinds of good stuff.

The big day arrived and I went to play hockey. I didn't bother to tell my wife they were coming.

The knock came to the door..............the news cameras were running.....and there was my wife standing in the door looking like a deer caught in the headlights.

She wasn't impressed :upset:

I will round it out with a true Ralph Klein story. We were visiting our inlaws in Saskatchewan close to the Alberta border.

We decided to go travel to Banff and sight see along the way. We stopped in a little Alberta town and went into the general store there.

While browing the shop...........there was a big commotion and in walked Ralph Klein. There was an election going on.

He walked over and grabbed my hand. He asked me if I was happy with things and if he could count on my vote.

I told him I was just visiting and he dropped my hand. muttered "your no good to me" and walked away.

Gotta love politicians. They are just so darn genuine :cool2:


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## Plugging Along

^ Those are pretty funny stories.


Last week, I was watching the Flames game, Vancouver scored just as the phone rang. Caller id said it was Jim prentice. I was distracted, and answered. Someone from the office asking for our support. I was so mad Vancouver just scored, I 'said "are you serious that you are calling during the flames game, obviously you don't support calgary. You cannot have our vote'. 

The person was pretty stunned.


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## sags

LOL............too bad you couldn't have given them the Tom Mabe treatment.


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## none

peterk said:


> riiight, the dark ages. The richest province by far with the highest earners, no debt. The fact that we've successfully arrived at this top position after decades of low corporate taxes and a flat personal tax must be killing you, none.
> 
> Despite all these polls, I'd bet $100 bucks that NDP still comes in 3rd after Wildrose and PC.


Oil. Without oil Alberta is nothing.


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## carverman

fraser said:


> I think that the polls are purely a reflection of Albertan's well placed lack of trust and unhappiness with the Conservative Gov't. After all, we have had FOUR different Premiers in less than 4 years (Stelmack, Redford, Hancock, Prentice). We have an election that we do not need and cannot afford. Add to this the terrible performance/gaffes by Prentice. * Plus the past eight years of broken promises and mismanagement.*


Well, you can't as Albertans put the blame entirely on Prentice for 8 years of broken promises. He's inherited a closet full of skeletons, thanks to the mismanagement of the previous gov't under Redford. 

I haven't followed that far back in previous Alberta PC gov'ts, but from what I remember, Redford was not the best person (bad choice) to be
Premier due to her spending habits, and the *seeming lack of control of Albertans over her spending habits.*

It's a shame that that the Heritage fund, once thegolden nest egg/rainy day fund for the province was mismanaged so badly when the income from the oil revenues in good times was nearly a billion dollars some years and exceeded that in others. 



> The Fund recorded net income of $1,092 million during fiscal year 2004-05 compared to $1,133 million in the previous year.



ok, lets fast forward to 2008-2009 , even during the great recession, Albertans had over 16 billion sitting in that fund. Nice little nest egg!


*Fast forward to 2012-2013; 

*
FINANCIAL HIGHLIGHTS
22.3% Fixed Income and Money Market
52.9% Equities
24.8% Infl ation Sensitive and Alternative Investments
2011-12 2010-11
Total Fund (billions) $16.1 $15.2
Total Income (millions) $798 $1080
Income Transfer to GRF (millions) $344 $720
Retained for Infl ation Proofi ng (millions) $454 $360

*$16.1 BILLION
FAIR VALUE AT MARCH 31, 2012
8.2%
RATE OF RETURN*

Not a bad rate of return either!


Now look at the fund for 2013-2014;


> In 2013‑14, the Heritage Fund earned net income of $2.1 billion, $193 million of which was retained in the
> Fund for inflation proofing and $*1.9 billion was transferred to the General Revenue Fund.*





> Transfers (from) the Fund
> Section 8(2) transfers (b)
> Income (35,734) (33,625)
> Amount Retained for Inflation-proofing 2,730 2,537
> (33,004) (31,088)
> Capital Expenditures (1976-1995) (c) (3,486) (3,486)
> (36,490) (34,574)


http://www.finance.alberta.ca/busin.../2014/Heritage-Fund-2013-14-Annual-Report.pdf

What happened? Who killed the goose that laid the golden eggs? 
Who sucked out that kind of money out of the fund rather than look at other sources of revenue such as consumption taxes, before the oil revenues plummeted due to turmoil in world oil prices. Oh, Albertans hate to pay taxes and especially provincial taxes like the rest of the 9 provinces...
so..

Can you really put all that blame on Prentice? As he mentioned on the radio call in show.."you want to know what happened to the Heritage fund?"
whos' to blame?..Just look in your mirror."

He was right!



> BUT.....there are lots of undecided out there and many who said they would not vote Conservative may in fact turn around. Plus, the polling numbers do not reflect down to the constituency level. It is really up in the air. I would say a Tory minority but heck I am never right when it comes to predicting election outcomes.


There seems to be a lot of turmoil right now in the provincial parties, lots of "floor crossing" BUT can you really trust the intentions of floor crossers? 
Do you really think they will have magic solutions now to make it all better?

They don't have any experience leading a province that has limited resources (oil and cattle) and the province doesn't need any more mismanagement than it already has.

Let's face, the "rainy day savings" have been used up..now everyone is pointing fingers at each other. Depending on how long the world oil price "drought"
continues, there is going to be some pain that will come with that. Unfortunately, the cash cow has run dry.

NDP, WildRose or the Liberals.....hmmm? if they were selling used cars, could you really take them at their word as being trustworthy?


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## sags

Will Albertans put an X in the box beside NDP, when they enter the polling booth?

I suppose because of the time difference, those of us in the east will have to wait until the next day for the final results..........or stay up all night.


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## carverman

Plugging Along said:


> You have been readin the polls that were wrong last time too.
> 
> I would bet that NDP will not be the government.


Latest:



> the meteoric rise of the New Democratic Party and the way it already *challenges the status-quo of close ties between the industry and the ruling establishment has alarmed oil executives. *The proposed review of royalties oil and gas companies pay the government for using natural resources and which could lead to higher levies, is a matter of particular concern.
> "Now is not the time for a review of oil and natural gas royalties," Tim McMillan, president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, the country's top oil lobby, said in a statement.





> A *2007 increase in the levy was rolled back when the global financial crisis struck *and oil executives say today the time is equally bad to try it again.
> Yet the left's leader Rachel Notley, a former union activist and law school graduate, has shot up in popularity ratings in the past months advocating policies that have been anathema for many conservative administrations.





> Even with the proposed corporate tax hike Alberta's overall taxes would remain the lowest nationally. *Oil executives warn, however, that any new burdens at a time when the industry is in a downturn, shedding jobs and cutting spending, could prompt firms to move corporate head offices out of the province*.





> Business is mobile," said Adam Legge, president of the Chamber of Commerce in Calgary where most of Canada's oil industry is based. "Capital, people and companies move."


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## el oro

sags said:


> Will Albertans put an X in the box beside NDP, when they enter the polling booth?


Doubt it. The thought of an ndp victory will mobilize some otherwise complacent voters. Early campaign success can be a killer. If nothing else, we should expect higher voter turnout.


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## peterk

^ That's me to a T.

Probably wouldn't have bothered voting if it weren't for this NDP madness.


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## bgc_fan

carverman said:


> Latest: Business is mobile," said Adam Legge, president of the Chamber of Commerce in Calgary where most of Canada's oil industry is based. "Capital, people and companies move."


Interesting quote, considering that the oil itself isn't mobile. What are oil companies planning to do? Transport all that land outside of Alberta to drill? Besides, Norway seemed to have done well with the royalty rate they imposed.


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## sags

I fail to see how a royalty "review" would send business scurrying out of Alberta.

It might not be a bad thing to slow down development of the oil sands and fracking, until we learn the long term consequences and figure out a way to clean up the resulting mess.

The world went all nuclear for awhile, until the stockpile of toxic material started to mount up and they didn't know what to do with it..........and still don't.

The world has to transition into clean alternative energy sources.

One way to force change is to make the old energy sources more expensive.

The world used to depend on whale oil.........then coal oil...........change is inevitable, and Alberta needs to prepare for it.


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## fraser

People get concerned when they hear 'Royalty Review" because the previous Stelmack Conservative government made a complete hash of it...and many other things as well.

Yet, one of the heroes of this province, Peter Lougheed, instituted and implemented a Royalty Review precisely because he did not feel that the energy companies were paying their fair share. Sound familiar???

Some of Rachael Notley's policies have more in common with the Peter Lougheed Conservatives than they do with either the NDP in general or with Prentice. I am not a Notley booster but the facts speak for themselves.


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## nobleea

The NDP in alberta is far more centrist that the NDP in any other province. It's all relative.
Just like the conservatives in canada look like communists to the conservatives in the states.

The NDP will certainly take Edmonton. They'll get a few seats in the rest of the province, but that's it.
I would expect the PC's will head a majority or possibly minority govt. NDP will be official opposition and WR will coalesce with the PC when necessary.
Liberals win 2-4 seats at best. NDP will probably have the most of the popular vote.


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## carverman

bgc_fan said:


> Interesting quote, considering that the oil itself isn't mobile. What are oil companies planning to do? Transport all that land outside of Alberta to drill? Besides, Norway seemed to have done well with the royalty rate they imposed.


I think he was referring to moving the head office(s) and management to an other place out of Alberta. 



> The Syncrude Project is a Joint Venture undertaking among Canadian Oil Sands Partnership #1, Imperial Oil Resources, Mocal Energy Limited, Murphy Oil Company Ltd., Nexen Oil Sands Partnership, Sinopec Oil Sands Partnership and Suncor Energy Ventures Partnership, as the project owners, and Syncrude as the project ...


Imperial oil is US based. Mocal energy is Nippon owned. Murphy oil is Calgary based. Nexen became a wholly owned subsidiary of Beijing-based CNOOC Limited. 
Sinopec is China petroleum and chemicals. Suncor is Canadian based (owns Petro-Canada)


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## carverman

nobleea said:


> The NDP in alberta is far more centrist that the NDP in any other province. It's all relative.
> Just like the conservatives in canada look like communists to the conservatives in the states.
> 
> The NDP will certainly take Edmonton. They'll get a few seats in the rest of the province, but that's it.
> I would expect the PC's will head a majority or possibly minority govt. NDP will be official opposition and WR will coalesce with the PC when necessary.
> Liberals win 2-4 seats at best. NDP will probably have the most of the popular vote.


This is what I'm predicting as well. The rural areas are firmly entrenched in years of PC. 
The oil establishment as well. ..so in the end, it will probably be the same old-same old. With some new elected candidates upsetting the incumbents.

PC - end to flat income tax, hike the gasoline tax, cutback of service departments and wage freezes
(PC platform will be unpopular with the average income earner)

NDP - review of oil royalties, boost in corporate tax (this will be unpopular with industry), more tax brackets on higher income earners,increase the
minimum wage
(NDP Platform will be unpopular with the establishment and industrial (oil, cattle, cash crop farming)

Seems that you can't have your cake and eat it too.:biggrin:

http://globalnews.ca/news/1978342/alberta-election-2015-platform-planks-of-the-4-main-parties/


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## fraser

So far the only reason that the so called Prentice Conservative team have given me to vote for them is to keep out the socialists.

I find that a baseless, arrogant, and condescending. Fear mongering is not the flavour of the day for this voter.

I plan to vote based on my perception of the how the Conservatives have governed over the past 8 years, their performance during the election, and their platform.


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## bgc_fan

carverman said:


> I think he was referring to moving the head office(s) and management to an other place out of Alberta.
> 
> 
> 
> Imperial oil is US based. Mocal energy is Nippon owned. Murphy oil is Calgary based. Nexen became a wholly owned subsidiary of Beijing-based CNOOC Limited.
> Sinopec is China petroleum and chemicals. Suncor is Canadian based (owns Petro-Canada)


While they can do that, they still need to have a significant local presence to extract the oil. Not everything can be done long-distance. It can add a bit of hassle, and too be honest, isn't much of a threat, in my eyes.


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## none

fraser said:


> So far the only reason that the so called Prentice Conservative team have given me to vote for them is to keep out the socialists.
> 
> I find that a baseless, arrogant, and condescending. Fear mongering is not the flavour of the day for this voter.
> 
> I plan to vote based on my perception of the how the Conservatives have governed over the past 8 years, their performance during the election, and their platform.


Good for you. Yellow dog voters regardless of party affiliation are never good.


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## Eder

I'm in Banff....pretty funny all the NDP signs have Notleys name on them rather than the local NDP candidate....was same in Canmore...maybe she has changed ridings midstream.


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## fraser

Have seen those in here in Calgary. We also have lots of signs that say "the Prentice Team" in large letters with Conservative in very small letters at the very bottom of the sign.


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## s123

Just look around the world….
The capitalism is failing. 
It’s a time to admit.

If Canada follows the same way as other country's method like in Europe, Japan, USA etc….
then Canada will be reach to the same goal.
Are they doing well and success? 

Keep in mind, Canada has a lot of natural resources. 
That’s means Canada has own physical assets. (if it’s not selling out all)
The big land and a few people are a great benefit than small country with big population.

It’s a necessary to move on toward the different system.
There is no easy fix but we should stop in this moment and find some different way/directions for minimum damage. 

This election is a very important for Albertan and Canada’s future. 
(*English is not my first language.)


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## peterk

s123 said:


> The capitalism is failing.
> ...
> 
> 
> It’s a necessary to move on toward the different system.


Ha. You gotta get this idea out of your head, man. Capitalism is not a "system" or a "theory" or an "invention", as some may have you believe. It is a natural law, as many would have you not believe.

There will be no different system. Capitalism will not be thwarted, ever.

Now whether government interference with capitalism will get worse or better, that is up for debate. Government plays a key role in allowing natural capitalism to thrive efficiently (mostly by enforcing property rights) but they have been doing a very poor job at playing their role for quite a number of decades now.

Rest assured, no matter who wins the Alberta election (or any election) "the capitalism" will not be failing.

And just in case you were curious. Despite socialism's best efforts over the past century to stop it, capitalism is about to bring: cell phones and internet, energy, banking, medicine, and food, to rural Asia and Africa. I predict disease, starvation, and ignorance will be all but gone by the end of this century, thanks to capitalism.


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## carverman

peterk said:


> Rest assured, no matter who wins the Alberta election (or any election) "the capitalism" will not be failing.


So obviously Peterk, you don't believe in socialism as a solution compared to the other disillusioned people out there that are looking for a saviour? 

*Capitalism* the PC party


> In common usage, the word capitalism means an economic system in which all or most of the means of production are privately owned and operated, and the investment of capital and the production, distribution and prices of commodities (goods and services) are determined mainly in a free market, rather than by the state. In capitalism, the means of production are generally operated for profit.


*Socialism *(der NDP)


> Most generally, socialism refers to state ownership of common property, or state ownership of the means of production. A purely socialist state would be one in which the state owns and operates the means of production. However, nearly all modern capitalist countries combine socialism and capitalism.



Ok so much for definitions of each system; 
now lets examine each system in relation to an Alberta farmer's future prosperity and state of well being with just two cows...:biggrin:



> *CAPITALISM:* You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
> 
> *PURE SOCIALISM:* You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.
> 
> 
> *BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM:* You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and as many eggs as the regulations say you should need.
> 
> *PURE DEMOCRACY:* You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.
> 
> *BUREAUCRACY: *You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.
> 
> *REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY: *You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.
> 
> *AMERICAN DEMOCRACY:* The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it. After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate".


CANADIAN CAPITALISM: Keep prices the same, but keep reducing the size of the bottles, hoping that the consumer doesn't notice that
the quantity sold each year keeps shrinking.

ALBERTA CAPITALISM: Take the oil wells and sell to the Chinese, causing a world glut of oil to drive world prices down.
Waste any previous savings from oil and declare cupboard is bare, blaming others for stealing from the cookie jar.
Deny any responsibility, get everyone confused and disallusioned, tell everyone to go out and buy a mirror.
Cross the floor to get to the other side, hoping things are better and maybe there is a secret solution to all this.

Alberta SOCIALISM: Protest vote for a completely new system of messing up what's left, in the hope that things will still get better.


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## s123

WOW!

Albertans have made history this election by coming out in droves to vote in advance polls.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/elections/al...-advance-polls-see-historic-turnout-1.3060518


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## Echo

s123 said:


> WOW!
> 
> Albertans have made history this election by coming out in droves to vote in advance polls.
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/elections/al...-advance-polls-see-historic-turnout-1.3060518


It's good to see the increased turnout, although I can't help but think it's more to do with people planning around the Flames home game tomorrow...


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## gibor365

s123 said:


> Just look around the world….
> The capitalism is failing.
> It’s a time to admit.
> 
> -----
> This election is a very important for Albertan and Canada’s future.
> (*English is not my first language.)


There are no any capitalist party in Canada at all (include Conservators)... Capitalism it's US Tea Party 
(*English is not my first or even second language)


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## Eder

I had the misfortune to be working at Northwood Mills (lumber) in BC when an ailing BC economy caused Dave Barrett (NDP) to be elected to form a government after promising the sky (1974 I think).

Within 4 weeks our mill went from 3 shifts to 1 shift (business backlash against higher taxes & Barretts intention to go on and socialize mills that were no longer competitive which he did, eventually resulting in nearly bankrupting the province)

I was laid off within 4 weeks...pretty standard story when socialism gains strength.


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## Barwelle

Eder said:


> I had the misfortune to be working at Northwood Mills (lumber) in BC when an ailing BC economy caused Dave Barrett (NDP) to be elected to form a government after promising the sky (1974 I think).
> ...
> I was laid off within 4 weeks...pretty standard story when socialism gains strength.


I've seen a few comments or articles saying the Alberta NDPs are not the same as at the federal level or in other provinces... that the Albertans are much less left-wing than the others... Anyone have comments on that?


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## sags

Notley certainly didn't appear as a wild eyed socialist during the debate.

She appeared comfortable occupying the vacant centre, calmly proposing some mild changes in government policy.

A small increase in taxes on the wealthy, and a review of oil royalties didn't sound all that alarming or earth shattering.

Prentice advocated the status quo.............and Albertans don't appear willing to accept that anymore.


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## fraser

Having lived in BC and suffered through several terrible NDP governments, the absolute worst being Clark, I can assure you that Rachael Notley is not cut from the same cloth as BC NDP folk.....fortunately. Mind you, the Socreds were hardly much better than the NDP.

Can't speak to a comparison with the Rae Government in Ontario


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## nobleea

fraser said:


> Having lived in BC and suffered through several terrible NDP governments, the absolute worst being Clark, I can assure you that Rachael Notley is not cut from the same cloth as BC NDP folk.....fortunately. Mind you, the Socreds were hardly much better than the NDP.
> 
> Can't speak to a comparison with the Rae Government in Ontario


The alberta NDP is probably similar to a liberal in Ontario or a conservative in BC.


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## sags

The Rae Government was hated because it did exactly what the Conservatives wanted to do.

They cut benefits and wages through unpaid days off for the public service.........known as Rae Days.

The public turned on Rae, when they discovered that cuts to the public sector meant cuts to public sector service.

People want it both ways.........cut something that someone else uses..........not me.

The unions turned on the NDP and have never patched up the relationship.

And so the Ontario NDP has no base of supporters anymore.

Without the NDP splitting the vote, the Liberals have a clear path to majority governments.


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## carverman

sags said:


> And so the Ontario NDP has no base of supporters anymore.
> 
> Without the NDP splitting the vote, the Liberals have a clear path to majority governments.


Very true sags. I remember the "Rae Days"...people in Ontario were dissatisfied with David Peterson's Liberal gov't...basically similar to what is happened to bring on
Alberta election today, except it was the Liberal Peterson gov't, not the PC gov't of Jim Pretence...but basically constituents being fed up with the status quo.
]


> Notwithstanding all of this, Peterson's Liberal Party still retained a comfortable lead over the Progressive Conservatives and NDP in mid-1990 public opinion polls. As a result, Peterson decided to call an snap election, less than three years into his mandate. This proved to be his greatest mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many voters saw the early election as a mark of arrogance,* and a sign that Peterson's Liberals had become detached from the electorate*. There was no defining issue behind the campaign, and many believed that Peterson was simply trying to win re-election before the economic downturn reached its worst phase.
> 
> 
> 
> In the end, it was some of the Toronto ridings (and maybe the Sudbury-Nickel Belt) that got Rae enough votes to be in the lead.
> He was very popular for his first six months as Premier, with a poll from March 1991 showing the NDP at 52% support
> 
> Rae's Government policies:
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario's economic forecast was bleak when Rae took office in October 1990. The Liberal government had forecast a small surplus earlier in the year, but a worsening North American economy led to a $700 million deficit before Rae took office. In October, the *NDP projected a $2.5 billion deficit for the fiscal year ending on March 31, 1991.
> Some economists projected soaring deficits for the upcoming years, even if the Rae government implemented austerity measures*.
> 
> Rae himself was critical of the Bank of Canada's high interest rate policy, arguing that it would lead to increased unemployment throughout the country. He also criticized the 1991 federal budget, arguing the Finance Minister Michael Wilson was shifting the federal debt to the provinces.
> 
> The Rae government's first budget, introduced in 1991, increased social spending to mitigate the economic slowdown and *projected a record deficit of $9.1 billion. *Finance Minister Floyd Laughren argued that Ontario made a decision to target the effects of the recession rather than the deficit,
> 
> and said that the budget would create or protect 70,000 jobs. *It targeted more money to social assistance, social housing and child benefits, and raised taxes for high-income earners while lowering rates for 700,000 low-income Ontarians.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmm.... the socialist experiment in Ontario..didn't quite work out the way the NDP planned. Alberta voters should perhaps take a page from Ontario's history?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## zylon




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## peterk

Oh my god... am I going to have to move provinces again??!?! :eek2:


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## zylon

source:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/alberta-election-results-2015-live


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## dogcom

Oh well the oil sands haven't been doing that well so it won't be as hard to see them go. Oh yeah and all mining will need to shut down and go away like it did in BC when the NDP got in. The good thing is Alberta has a lot of capacity to borrow money to pay for all the unemployed and to raise the wages of all public sector workers.


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## zylon




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## zylon

I guess the apPRENTICE never heard the wisdom, *"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"*.

There was no need to call this election.


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## peterk

SUPER glad that I didn't buy a house in Alberta these past 2 years living here. I was really considering it last summer...


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## dogcom

Anyone who owns property in the Okanagan have probably won the lottery.


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## Plugging Along

Plugging Along said:


> You have been readin the polls that were wrong last time too.
> 
> I would bet that NDP will not be the government.


It looks like I may be eating my words. I was expecting a PC minority gov. However, this could be an interesting few years. I didn't voted NDP, but did want change, I guess this will be part of it.

I like some of the things the NDP promised, but I just see no way they will be able to pay for it all. My taxes will go up even more I am guessing.


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## zylon

"I accept responsibility for tonight’s outcome." 
"And I also accept responsibility for the decisions that led up to this evening."



"My contribution to public life is at an end." 

— Jim Prentice resigns as leader of Alberta PCs


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## none

Wow, this is pretty amazing.

Unfortunately what I suspect will happen is oil will continue to stay in the toilet - and alberta has very little wiggle room when that happens.

And Prentice ditches his riding and casts them to the wind. What a class A a-hole. So much for those people who fought to elect him. Jesus, if I was one of those PC supporters I'd say never again.


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## carverman

none said:


> Wow, this is pretty amazing.
> 
> Unfortunately what I suspect will happen is oil will continue to stay in the toilet - and alberta has very little wiggle room when that happens.
> 
> And Prentice ditches his riding and casts them to the wind. What a class A a-hole. So much for those people who fought to elect him. Jesus, if I was one of those PC supporters I'd say never again.





> The New Democrats, under leader Rachel Notley, *swept all 19 constituencies in Edmonton on Tuesday, made significant inroads in previously barren NDP territory in Calgary, Lethbridge and rural Alberta.*
> 
> *The Wildrose party took second place and will form the official Opposition*, while Prentice and his battered PCs had to settle for third.
> It was a crushing defeat for the Tories, who had steered the ship of state since 1971 — longer than any party anywhere in the country.
> Prentice told subdued supporters in Calgary that he was stepping down as leader effective immediately and would also leave the Calgary Foothills seat he just recaptured.



Disillusionment does that every time. It didn't happen here in Ontario, even though the Fiberals wasted billions under the McGuinty Liberal gov't. 

The unions remembered what happened under Ontario's "Rae Days", and even though they shunned Tim Hudak's PC "cut-cut-Cut" platform, they were
not willing to get behind the NDP banner either. 


We will have to wait until the "honeymoon" between Albertans and the NDP is over though to see what kind of longevity Notely's NDP gov't will have. 
It didn't last long in Ontario..about 6 months, and we were disillusioned again with Bob Rae and his rag tag army that couldn't steer Ontario out of recession either. 

In politics, it is best not to really P*ss off your supporters because that tends to becoming your undoing in the next election.

I wish Rachel Notely and her "Notely Crue" the best of luck to steer Alberta back to prosperity in these times of economic turmoil with falling world oil prices.
And as Prentice discovered, the Heritage cupboard is bare, so the lost revenue will have to be made up the hard way...cuts in some services and more
taxes. While you can raise taxes on the people, raising taxes on the wealthy and industry (mostly oil in Calgary and Edmonton) may backfire in the future,
so the NDP should tread lightly and not whack what industry Alberta has with a heavy hand on taxation.

Sure, we all want everyone to pay their fair share of taxes..but it is a known fact that "the rich don't pay taxes and the poor don't pay taxes"..so
that leaves the ordinary worker left to pay all the taxes.

I guess the *"who's responsible?..just look in the mirror!"* comment will go down as Prentice's biggest political gaff! :biggrin:


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## none

It will be funny though: if the TSX tanks some more it'll be because of this NDP win if it doesn't it'll just be markets doing what markets do. .


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## carverman

none said:


> It will be funny though: if the TSX tanks some more it'll be because of this NDP win if it doesn't it'll just be markets doing what markets do. .


Too soon to tell yet. The oil patch will sit quietly until some formal NDP influenced legislation is passed to place a higher tax burden on them
with less concessions, (ie: paying more royalties to the provincial coffers). That could stymie future investment in the oil patch and have a negative effect on jobs as well.

Whether the veiled threat (comment..forget who made it) about the head offices pulling out of Alberta if that happens, remains to be seen.

With Alberta being basically a rural vs urban split in population..increased taxation could lead to a segment of the population with having more benefits at the expense of another. The NDP have to be very careful how that happens. 

Ontario tried NDP once..it didn't work out. So did Nova Scotia and BC..Saskatchewan (which was where Tommy Douglas first started) has been the only province with any kind of reasonable success/longevity with a provincial NDP gov't. (16 years) .but now the voters decide on change and a new party..the Saskatchewan Party, currently in power since 2011.

Like any party, if it's in power "too long", and things aren't going well for the rank and file, questionable politics and early election call gambles can lead to big upsets.


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## 1980z28

NDP,jack would be happy,with the win


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## Addy

Good time for the PC's to get out while the economy there takes a dump. Then everyone will hate the NDP eventually and the PC's, or, god forbid, the Wild Rose party, will get their majority.

But yes, Jack would be proud. And it's a refreshing change for a province that's been lead too long by old, short sighted white dudes way too long.


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## Toronto.gal

peterk said:


> Oh my god... am I going to have to move provinces again??!?! :eek2:


Where to? Not back to ON? 



zylon said:


> I guess the apPRENTICE never heard the wisdom, *"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"*.
> 
> *There was no need to call this election*.


Isn't that the truth?


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## fraser

As an Albertan, I welcome the change. 

The Conservative Party in Alberta was well past it's sell by date. And to think, could have elected a leader like Prentice who has so much disdain for the voters that he quit even before the ballots were counted in his riding. Those luckless folks will now be going to their third provincial election/by-election in a year. Good riddance to Mr. Prentice. This election was lost by Prentice and by the Conservative record more that it was won by the NDP. 

The only other election where the Party in power ran such an abysmal campaign was Kim Campbell (remember those disgraceful Chretien adds that focussed on his physical disability or the reports from the press on the election bus about her unseemly behaviour with her Russian boyfriend). We lived in Vancouver at the time. Those ads cost her 5 seats over the space of three days in her own home town.

This is NOT the NDP that many people outside imagine. They do not have the same platform. Indeed, they could easily be confused for Liberals. This is a very different province to the one that we moved to 15 years ago. 

The odd thing is that we have lived in Ontario for 5 years, Quebec for 20, and BC for 20 yet we feel so much more attached to Alberta that we did to any other province. Quebec was a close second. To the point where we chose to retire here notwithstanding most of our relatives living in Ontario. There is something about Alberta and Albertans that is different. I cannot imagine a better Province in which to raise a young family even though ours were late teens when we arrived.


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## Davis

New Democrats elected in Alberta! Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! And did I mention, New Democrats elected in Alberta?


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## Userkare

So, will Alberta be replacing the cross of St George on their flag with a sickle and hammer?


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## sags

Prentice thought that when the Wildrose leaders and members crossed the floor to join the PC party.................the election was all his.

He cobbled together a thoughtless budget, with vague promises of balancing the books and steering the Alberta economy in a different direction, some time in the distant future.

Albertans looked at the empty Heritage Fund, and wondered why there was nothing in it to show for all those high oil prices and profits for decades.

Transitioning Alberta's economy is easier said than done.

Every Canadian Province and US State wants to evolve into a high technology, high education economy.

Notley's desire to build a refinery in Alberta, and to abandon the controversial Northern Gateway and Keystone pipelines.......in favor of an east to west all Canada pipeline, shows she considers her government working for the people of Alberta............not foreign oil companies.

Alberta has great resources in oil, agriculture and tourism, and great gains can be made in those areas before looking to change the economy entirely to another form.

I predict Alberta will look much different in 4 years, and Albertans will be very happy with what they see.


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## plasmasnake

Looks like resource/energy stocks are getting hammered today. Is it really as bad as investors think, or is it a buying opportunity?


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## carverman

Davis said:


> New Democrats elected in Alberta!


My youngest brother has lived and worked in Alberta since the late 80s in the Peace River area.

While he wasn't happy with what has happened in the last 10 years, he has adopted the "lets wait and see what will happen now", with the economy in a downturn there. You can't just take the "Titanic" (gov't obligations and debt load), and turn it around 180 degrees..there isn't any options left except to raise taxation. 

With a lot of inexperienced elected NDPers now, she better call in some knowledgeable consultants to guide the decision process..otherwise it could be the same or even worse than under the PCs.


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## Barwelle

The vote split on the right had a _huge_ impact.

by popular vote: right-wing 52% vs NDP at 41%.

by seats won: if the PC and WRP votes in each riding were combined to vote for 1 party (as Prentice and Smith were trying to do), the conservatives would have 60 seats today vs NDP's 26.

Even if you add the Lib votes to the NDP's numbers, the Cons get 56 and the left 30.


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## carverman

Barwelle said:


> The vote split on the right had a _huge_ impact.
> 
> by popular vote: right-wing 52% vs NDP at 41%.
> 
> by seats won: if the PC and WRP votes in each riding were combined to vote for 1 party (as Prentice and Smith were trying to do), the conservatives would have 60 seats today vs NDP's 26.
> 
> Even if you add the Lib votes to the NDP's numbers, the Cons get 56 and the left 30.


This is basically what happened in Quebec in the last federal election to get the NDP under Jack Layton into official opposition party status. Layton gave the
NDP the boost they were looking for and in Quebec, the split vote to get rid of the BLOC, got a lot of neophyte candidates elected. University students,
bar tenders, people that had no political training or experience.


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## none

And that's why first past the post with more than two parties is kind of dumb but certainly unfair.

The genius of Harper is that he turned the vote splitting tables around on the Liberals. Sure I think harper is a short sighted math challenged moron but he's a great politician.

In the last fed - right: ~40% Left 60%. (and the cons received 54% of the seats).


This gives me pause about who to vote for in the upcoming federal. I assumed that only the Liberals could beat out Harper but if Alberta can elect an NDP majority i think anything is possible.

The last thing trudeau brought out with yet another blantant vote buying program really turned me off. I'm getting pretty tired of policitians trying to buy my vote. Jeffery simpson has a good article the other day: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ldnt-play-on-the-tories-turf/article24254907/

A great paragraph:
_"Conservatives say time and again: Taxpayers not governments know best how to spend “hard-earned dollars.” If you want collective action to achieve social goals, vote for someone else. National visions, collective dreams, large goals have disappeared from Canadian politics, replaced by appeals exclusively to economic self-interest."_

It's true. I'd be much more receptive to a politician that proposes a great vision for the future of Canada. I have a son and I want his country to be great (although he has dual - he gets to choose - better step up Canada!). Anyway, if Mulcaire can come up with this vision he'll have his vote (which I would not have said a week ago.).


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## el oro

none said:


> It will be funny though: if the TSX tanks some more it'll be because of this NDP win if it doesn't it'll just be markets doing what markets do. .


If the TSX energy stocks continue to tank while oil continues to rise, it is absolutely the NDP effect.


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## buaya

Barwelle said:


> The vote split on the right had a _huge_ impact.
> 
> by popular vote: right-wing 52% vs NDP at 41%.
> 
> by seats won: if the PC and WRP votes in each riding were combined to vote for 1 party (as Prentice and Smith were trying to do), the conservatives would have 60 seats today vs NDP's 26.
> 
> Even if you add the Lib votes to the NDP's numbers, the Cons get 56 and the left 30.


Vote Split do matter. However, there no guarantee that all the Right wing votes would stay where there are if there are no 2 parties on the right. Look at Ontario. We have 2 "left wing parties" but Hudak was wiped out. Why? I personally think Wynnn was the difference. Any other leader, and we will have a PC minority.


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## none

I do think it's great that women are starting to get represented at the top levels of government.


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## bgc_fan

buaya said:


> Vote Split do matter. However, there no guarantee that all the Right wing votes would stay where there are if there are no 2 parties on the right. Look at Ontario. We have 2 "left wing parties" but Hudak was wiped out. Why? I personally think Wynnn was the difference. Any other leader, and we will have a PC minority.


I'd say that Liberals were a little more centralist, but that's a moot point. The NDPs and PCs both ran incompetent campaigns. I mean Horwath caused the election, but didn't have any election strategy, and Hudak didn't really have a winning platform.


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## Eder

And when they heard the gun booming and saw the green flag fluttering at the masthead, their hearts swelled with imperishable pride, and the talk turned always towards the old heroic days, the expulsion of Jones, the writing of the Seven Commandments, the great battles in which the human invaders had been defeated.

But I hope I'm wrong!


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## My Own Advisor

Good call on the NDP win....

I wonder what happens next....!!!???


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## dogcom

What happens next?

Tax, spend, borrow, red tape, environment vs employment, increased welfare and public sector wages rising unsustainably.

The good that I see from it will be workers rights strengthened in the private sector.


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## mrPPincer

it's good they got a majority, now they won't have their hands tied and can roll up their sleeves and get the job done.
The market should like the majority I think, as long as they get a solid plan out there for business to look at.
We'll see how it plays out.

Who'd'a thought the province most to the right would elect a NDP gov't, interesting times.. also any assumptions about the upcoming federal election might be re-examined now..
Federally the left/centre vote is still split though so who knows.


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## sags

Eder said:


> And when they heard the gun booming and saw the green flag fluttering at the masthead, their hearts swelled with imperishable pride, and the talk turned always towards the old heroic days, the expulsion of Jones, the writing of the Seven Commandments, the great battles in which the human invaders had been defeated.
> 
> But I hope I'm wrong!


Sounds like a great narration for opening an action movie though............I am getting my popcorn ready.


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## carverman

mrPPincer said:


> it's good they got a majority, now they won't have their hands tied and can roll up their sleeves and get the job done.
> The market should like the majority I think, as long as they get a solid plan out there for business to look at.
> We'll see how it plays out.
> 
> Who'd'a thought the province most to the right would elect a NDP gov't, interesting times.. also any assumptions about the upcoming federal election might be re-examined now..
> Federally the left/centre vote is still split though so who knows.


Federal Tories ; aka the Harper gov't is now contemplating their mortality in the federal election in the fall. 

In the past they could count on Alberta as their stronghold to gain those "pretty much secured" votes for a majority, but now it is evident with the rejection of the provincial Tories under Jim Prentice, and the sheer waste of the public trust fund from the spendthrift before him, (Allison Redford), that the Harper gov't is going to have a very tough time to even get a minority gov't.

Maybe the writing is on the wall that the Canadian democracy that we once had, which was modified by the Harper Alliance gov't (roots in Alberta), is now the norm in Canada, as some provinces may set the precedence for a Socialist Federal gov't. 

I doubt that the Liberals under JT will see much gain beyond the Ontario-Manitoba border. The Eastern provinces (outside of Quebec) may have other feelings as well.

Harper has had a good run...time to sweep out the corruption off Parliament Hill, and put those theivin' senators away for a few years.

The TSE experienced a bit of a setback based on the news from the Alberta election, but a "New broom sweeps clean as they say."


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## mrPPincer

My guess was that it was an an excerpt for the Heinlein novel Starman Jones, but I've never read it, so not sure.


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## andrewf

He is not dumb or short-sighted, he just doesn't care about reality or what's right. He cares about his goals and what is politically expedient. What's true or right is secondary.


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## mrPPincer

> Harper has had a good run...time to sweep out the corruption off Parliament Hill, and put those theivin' senators away for a few years.


^+1

NDP/Lib. coalition anybody?


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## carverman

mrPPincer said:


> ^+1
> 
> NDP/Lib. coalition anybody?


JT has already announced NO COALITION with Mulcair in charge. 
I don't think they get along now, so it is doubtful they would agree on most issues if either one got in as PM even with a minority gov't.
The exception may be universal child care, but that is not enough to keep a country running smoothly. Too many issues these days.


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## mrPPincer

I think that was a mistake on JT's part imho, but yeah, maybe they are too far apart, maybe more likely he'd back another extention of the reign of Harper gov't; maybe Harper is the idol he wants to be when he grows up? :hopelessness:


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## Eder

sags said:


> Sounds like a great narration for opening an action movie though............I am getting my popcorn ready.


Or plagiarized from a great book...four legs good 2 legs bad is your hint!


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## none

mrPPincer said:


> ^+1
> 
> NDP/Lib. coalition anybody?


Selfishly I certainly hope not! I have a bet with a friend that although this is completely legal Canadian's don't think this is appropriate.

If I coalition is possible and offered by a party and rejected by the other I am the recipient of 24 litres of beer!


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## fraser

If Jim Prentice and Co want to understand why they lost this election then all they have to do is look in the mirror.

They really started loosing at an amazing rate when Stelmach was elected. Redford increased the velocity. Prentice was the final nail in the coffin. Three absolutely terrible performers who took Alberta voters for granted.


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## Islenska

Democracy in action......................but I'm not an Albertan so their call!


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## none

This is a great article.

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/albe...the-fourth-time-a-guide-for-the-perplexed-190


Best lines: 
"If you can get past the initial weirdness of the idea—that the land of Nickelback fell, Brokeback Mountain-style, for a bunch of tweedy Dippers—it's actually not as fucked up as it looks on paper."

"The truth is, Alberta isn't that right, and the provincial NDP isn't that left. The NDP is a breath of fresh air in a province that desperately needs it."


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## sags

A new generation has taken over in Alberta.

It is a great week for progressive minded Canadians. 

Albertans will be long remembered as the start of a movement towards governments that will represent the people instead of corporate masters.

The Harper government was just served their notice of eviction.


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## carverman

fraser said:


> If Jim Prentice and Co want to understand why they lost this election then all* they have to do is look in the mirror*.
> 
> They really started loosing at an amazing rate when Stelmach was elected. Redford increased the velocity. Prentice was the final nail in the coffin. Three absolutely terrible performers who took Alberta voters for granted.


LOL! That *was* the final nail he drove into the PC coffin. However, when he finally took over, the Heritage cupboard was empty and along came the oil price crisis at a bad time for Alberta, that normally would have been used to build up some reserves. Redford was a careless spend thift that only thought of herself and her party, not the people of Alberta. Stelmach, don't know much about his reign, but old drunken Ralph Klein didn't help matters either.

Now, as far as the bottom falling out of crude oil prices, it has happened before (1980s), and again in 2014 ( 20 years later) and it will happen again
in the future at some point. So you can't always depend on the oil patch to be the economic saviour of Alberta. 

*Stelmach:*


> His government also attracted controversy for *awarding itself a 30% pay increase shortly after its re-election*, and featured strained relations with Calgary, one of Klein's former strongholds. Despite this, Stelmach increased the Progressive Conservatives' already substantial majority in the 2008 election. With the advent of the late-2000s recession, Stelmach had to cope with a deteriorating economic situation and the Alberta government's first budget deficit in 16 years.


*Klein: *


> By the *mid-1980s there was a worldwide oil glut*, a serious surplus of crude oil, with the *world price of oil dropping from over US$35 per barrel to below $10.*
> The glut began in the early 1980s as a result of slowed economic activity in industrial countries (due to the crises of the 1970s, especially in 1973 and 1979) and the energy conservation spurred by high fuel prices. Time Magazine stated, "the world temporarily floats in a glut of oil."
> *By 1993, when Klein took office, Alberta's debt had reached C$23 billion.*


*Famous quote: *


> "Never again will this government or the people of this province have to *set aside another tax dollar on debt..."Those days are over and they're over for good,* as far as my government is concerned, and if need be we will put in place legislation to make sure that we never have a debt again."
> —Ralph Klein 2004


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## carverman

sags said:


> A new generation has taken over in Alberta.
> 
> T*he Harper government was just served their notice of eviction*.


Have to agree, the federal election landscape has just changed. Harper cannot depend on Alberta to support him. They have enough problems to deal with now,
and Harper can't help them at this point. They dug themselves a deep hole with their debt load and now they have to dig themselves out.


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## CPA Candidate

Can't compare provincial and federal party politics. 

NDP win in Alberta is perfect example of a protest vote, not an endorsement of the NDP. 

In Manitoba we'd had the NDP since 1999. Child poverty is the same, crime is the same, health care is the same, taxes are much higher, deficit and debt are much higher, public sector is fat and well paid. Just budgeted another big deficit while saying Manitoba is doing well economically. Last I heard MB had the second highest debt per capital in Canada, after Quebec of course. 

Alberta will learn a hard lesson. Taxes will go up, unemployment will go up and investment will leave.


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## bgc_fan

CPA Candidate said:


> Can't compare provincial and federal party politics.
> 
> NDP win in Alberta is perfect example of a protest vote, not an endorsement of the NDP.
> 
> In Manitoba we'd had the NDP since 1999. Child poverty is the same, crime is the same, health care is the same, taxes are much higher, deficit and debt are much higher, public sector is fat and well paid. Just budgeted another big deficit while saying Manitoba is doing well economically. Last I heard MB had the second highest debt per capital in Canada, after Quebec of course.
> 
> Alberta will learn a hard lesson. Taxes will go up, unemployment will go up and investment will leave.


Agreed that you can't compare federal and provincial party politics. Likewise, you can't compare the politics from one province to another.

The funny thing about your last statement about the effects is that these are going to happen even if the PCs were in power. If they want to balance the books, they would have to be forced to raise taxes somewhere, and unemployment was on its way up with the oil crash. So basically some of these things were going to happen anyway, but the NDP will now get blamed for it.


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## andrewf

Ontario typically supports the opposite party at the federal level vs the provincial government. It's not obvious to me that because Alberta NDP booted out a 44 year conservative dynasty that Alberta is suddenly really in play for the federal NDP.


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## Davis

Barwelle said:


> The vote split on the right had a _huge_ impact.
> 
> by popular vote: right-wing 52% vs NDP at 41%.
> 
> by seats won: if the PC and WRP votes in each riding were combined to vote for 1 party (as Prentice and Smith were trying to do), the conservatives would have 60 seats today vs NDP's 26.
> 
> Even if you add the Lib votes to the NDP's numbers, the Cons get 56 and the left 30.


It is a fallacy to assume that all PCs would be willing to support Wildrose and vice versa, and ditto for the parties of the centre-left.

But the result does show how the first - past - the - post system simply fails to reflect the will of the electorate. A preferential ballot, where voters indicate their first, second, third choices, would eliminate the need for strategic voting and better reflect what the majority of voters want in each riding.


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## bgc_fan

To lighten the doom and gloom, there is an example from Minnesota where raising taxes and increasing spending ended up improving the economy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-gibson/mark-dayton-minnesota-economy_b_6737786.html


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## none

andrewf said:


> Ontario typically supports the opposite party at the federal level vs the provincial government. It's not obvious to me that because Alberta NDP booted out a 44 year conservative dynasty that Alberta is suddenly really in play for the federal NDP.


For me is how I weight the power of branding. At the very least it doesn't hurt that's for sure.


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## none

I honestly think that if the Federal NDP came out with explicit proportional representation on their platform they might have a chance.

I think the NDP majority in Alberta may finally bring home to many why our electoral system is unfair. I think those people who "would never vote NDP" may be swayed to give the NDP the keys for 4 years if they promised a more fair electoral system. 

Anyway, NP had a decent story on it. 

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...outmoded-first-past-the-post-electoral-system


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## sags

The Conservatives lose elections in Ontario and blame their leader, unions, media and uninformed voters.

The Conservatives lose an election in Alberta and blame their leader, uninformed voters and a flawed electoral system.

Ontario Conservatives just elected a new leader..........who is further to the right politically and less connected to the voters, than Tim Hudak was.

Conservatives aren't getting the message that voters are sending them. 

It isn't the messenger...........it is the message.


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## bgc_fan

none said:


> I honestly think that if the Federal NDP came out with explicit proportional representation on their platform they might have a chance.
> 
> I think the NDP majority in Alberta may finally bring home to many why our electoral system is unfair. I think those people who "would never vote NDP" may be swayed to give the NDP the keys for 4 years if they promised a more fair electoral system.
> 
> Anyway, NP had a decent story on it.
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...outmoded-first-past-the-post-electoral-system


I find it funny, but not unexpected that now that the Conservatives lose an election, they suddenly bring PR into the picture. No issue when it works out great for them on a Federal level. In fact, their current strategy is to have the Liberals and NDPs to vote-split and then they get a majority straight up the middle.


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## none

I agree and the Liberals did great with the right wing split as well.

I'd hope that we could all take a step back from things and agree that in order for democracy to work it has to be fair and this first past the post system results in a representation that is not.

Anyway, if Mulclair came out with a solid plan for that, a good vision of Canada, I would vote NDP at the Federal level. I would give them my vote.


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## carverman

sags said:


> The Conservatives lose elections in Ontario and blame their leader, unions, media and uninformed voters.
> 
> The Conservatives lose an election in Alberta and blame their leader, uninformed voters and a flawed electoral system.
> 
> Ontario Conservatives just elected a new leader..........who is further to the right politically and less connected to the voters, than Tim Hudak was.
> 
> Conservatives aren't getting the message that voters are sending them.
> 
> It isn't the messenger...........it is the message.


I thought they were all set on Christine? What happened? This guy comes across more like the former leader (Tim Hudak) and after the hooting and hollerin'
of everyone behind him..it's the same old -same old, and that isn't going to win the next election for them.


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## sags

It sounds like Brown exploited the rules for the PC party leadership.

He signed up more new members than the other candidates and they voted for him.

The race for the leadership has turned more into a race for new members, than a debate on political platforms.

In fact, Brown has basically said he doesn't know what his platform is yet

Something about.........more inclusive and pragmatic...........whatever that means.


----------

