# Grocery Store of choice?



## Young&Ambitious

Hi everyone,

What grocery store do frugal people choose? I'm close to a bunch: WalMart, Safeway, SaveonFoods, Choices, Canadian Superstore, CostCo (I have friends w/ memberships) and more yet. Even the dollar stores have shelf food! With so many options I am now wondering where does one go to get the most bang for their buck?

I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say!


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## HaroldCrump

Wal*Mart for the most part.
Only go to the others if there is a super duper sale.
Don't like No Frills and Price Chopper in general.
There are some speciality items that Superstore has, so go there sometimes.
Seldom go to Loblaws, Metro, A&P, Fortinos and other high-end stores.


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## the-royal-mail

Giant Tiger.

Seriously, all those big box places you mentioned are strong competitors. Same as Sobey's. You can't generalize and say one is cheaper than all the rest. All have loss leaders and you have to go product by product. The way to save on grocery bills is to clip coupons, follow sales, buy in advance.

Forget about wasting $45 on a costco membership for groceries. The quantities you need to buy are far too much for the average person. If you have a big family and are good at the game, you can save money.

Don't forget all of these places are businesses, there to make money. Their marketing is geared towards making you think you are getting a deal, but you usually aren't. Some people are good at this game and keeping their costs down. Hats off to them.

Where's groceryalerts? Steve usually has something to say when it comes to grocery stores. LOL.


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## atrp2biz

Foody Mart. (Warden/Steeles location in Toronto)

This weekend I bought skinless/boneless chicken breast for $2.66/lb (regular $3.99/lb--still pretty good). I bought the maximum 10 lb limit. 

I find the food fresh as the turnover is pretty high. The produce selection is second to none in my opinion.

We also buy without a shopping list. We see what's on special and create our menu for the week based on the deals that are available.


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## Dana

Real Canadian Superstore and Costco. Costco is well worth it for us. To quote Royal, I am "good at the game" so I go about once per month and RCSS in between Costco visits. 

I dislike (our local) Sobey's, No Frills, Food Basics and Walmart Supercentre.


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## ChrisR

I think you definitely CAN find a grocery store that is cheaper than all the rest, but what that store is may depend on where you live.

In my neck of the woods (South Winnipeg) Superstore is the hands down winner over all of the competitors.

Compared to Giant Tiger and Walmart, I find that Superstore is cheaper on most items and definitely more convenient as neither Walmart nor Giant Tiger are full service grocery stores (ie. no produce).

As for the other competitors, Superstore beats Safeway, Sobey's and Costco on virtually every item in the store. One of the reasons is that Superstore in Winnipeg matches or beats the sale prices of all the competitors. In fact, I don't receive a superstore flyer, but for years I have checked the Safeway flyer, just to figure out what will be on sale at Superstore! (And no, you don't have to ask for this, they have their prices changed before the Safeway flyer has even been delivered).

One store that I know a lot of people here really like is Costco. If you do plan on shopping there, I highly recommend taking a calculator along with you. All of the items sold at Costco are packaged in irregular sizes that can deceive you into thinking that you're getting a deal when you really aren't.


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## Sampson

Where ever the sales are.


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## andrewf

I checked out Costco recently. The prices are mediocre considering the large package and the membership fee. Their private label stuff is usually pretty decent. If I had a family it might be worthwhile, but you have to value your time a bit too.


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## Doug Out West

I'm actually trying to figure this out as once retired will have to come back to Calgary for big stock ups. Always shop at RCSS and stock up on weeks that have spend $250 and get $25 gift card. Next week I spend $80-$100. If Costco prices aren't that much better wouldn't bother. But would it be worth it if was coming in every 6 weeks to spend ~$1000?


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## Plugging Along

When both my spouse and I weren't working, the grocery bill was one of the first things to really cut. I was surprised that we were able to cut our bill by almost 50% by doing some really frugal shopping.

We're pretty fortunate, as we have most stores close by each other, so I would go to different stores to get the best deals. The stores that we have access to are Superstore, Coop, Sobeys, Safeway, Walmart (but not the supercentre, so no produce), Costco (a little further)

Previously, I used to think Costco was the best price, however I have learned, that it does have the best quality out all of them, and the prices are good when there is nothing else on sale. Items like flour, granola bars, yeast, spices, and a few other things were much better in price. However, when there are good sales, then the other stores were much better. Different stores where were good for different thingsGenerally, after Costco, regular prices was Superstore were the best but their quality not as good for meat and produce. Walmart is comparable and probably a little cheaper than Superstore, but since we were not near a Supercentre, I couldn't do my regular shopping here. Sobeys, Coop, and Safeways regular prices were all much higher.

Coop is good for when they have their warehouse sale for meats, and often have the big blocks of cheese on sale, and occasionally some other deals.

Safeways deals are best when it's the buy one get one free. 

Sobeys dollar days are execellent deals and their hot deal of the week, I end up doing a lot of stocking up. I bought 100lbs of chicken leg/thighs when they were $1/lb, that lasted about 18 months. Get rainchecks if they run out, and then you can use it for another time when the prices are higher.

Walmart is good for cleaning supplies, and when they have they dollar days too.

Superstore is where I do most of my shopping now. What I will do is look for stacks of coupons from other stores (the manufactuer ones in the aisles), and take them for another day. I will then combine the Superstore in store coupon, with the manufacturers coupon to get the items really cheap. I think I had a few times where I piad under 50cents for a box of cereal, so I bought 15 boxes. Also, Superstore will price match, so I will bring in ads from the other stores (especially if there is only one or two items from the other store), just don't do it during a busy weekend. Also they take competitors coupons, so I will use that on top of everything.

I'm not sure if this answered your question of which on is the cheapest. I guess it would be Superstore for us, but I do use the other ones when the deals are right.


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## crazyjackcsa

I have two choices in my little town. Sobey's and No Frills. About 20 km away is all the others: RCSS, Food Basics, Walmart.

I have a hard time shopping for food at Walmart, I don't really know why, but I do. Same with Giant Tiger and TBS.


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## Jungle

Food Basic
No Frills
Price Chopper
Loblaws (loss leaders)
Shoppers Drug Mart (loss leaders)

What sucks about walmart, is that the MBNA smart cash does not consider Walmart as a grocery store, so no 3% cash back on purchases.


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## kubatron

I would never cheapen out on food, by shopping at walmart for made-in-china fish. Gross. I shop at Longo's.


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## Dana

kubatron said:


> I would never cheapen out on food, by shopping at walmart for made-in-china fish. Gross. I shop at Longo's.


Good thing you have that luxury then, isn't it?

Lots of families _don't_ have that option and "cheapen out on food" as a necessity. Believe it or not there are children in your community who will eat "made-in-China fish" for supper tonight and be grateful that their parents can afford meat this week. 

They don't need stuck-up food snobs labelling their dinner as "gross".


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## the-royal-mail

kubatron said:


> I would never cheapen out on food, by shopping at walmart for made-in-china fish. Gross. I shop at Longo's.


Have you seen Food Inc? It doesn't much matter where you shop. The documentary explained that pretty much everything you buy in the store came from a feed lot, china or whatever. There are only like 4-5 huge food conglomerates in the states, and they each have thousands of products branded in a way that makes us think we're getting farm fresh stuff. There are lots of stories. Watch the documentary. This is why we've been seeing a surge of "farmer's markets" and the like. People ARE concerned with their food source and rightly so.


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## atrp2biz

That's why we shop along the periphery of the stores. The stuff in the middle is junk. Produce, meats, bakery, dairy--these are all generally found along the walls. What else do you need on a regular basis?


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## the-royal-mail

Oatmeal, baking needs, toilet paper, cereal, nacho chips and salsa, tomato juice and paste are all essentials that are in the middle. But yes I see your point, most of the time I am on the outer walls. They put the good stuff far away and make us navigate narrow aisles and pallets of junk "sale" items that we keep bumping into when someone with a shopping cart takes up the whole aisle to themselves.


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## andrewf

Hate to break it to you folks, but most farmers' markets are shams. It's people who buy produce from the same industrial farms as the grocery stores and resell. Real farmers don't have time to sell you carrots by the bunch. You might have the occasional hobby farmer, but I'm skeptical they could make a living.


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## ChrisR

Its actually that "stuff in the middle" that you stand to save the most money on.

While meat and dairy are only a little bit cheaper at the big box grocery stores like Superstore, things like canned tomatoes, dry pasta, rice and condiments can be half the price you'd find at the smaller stores like Safeway and Sobey's.


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## HaroldCrump

kubatron said:


> I would never cheapen out on food, by shopping at walmart for made-in-china fish. Gross. I shop at Longo's.


Right, and where do you suppose they are getting their "Atlantic Salmon" from?
And where are they getting summer fruits like blueberries, strawberries, etc. from in the middle of winter.
Higher price does not equal higher quality.
Although, Longos does have great bread - really love it.
Not that I pay $5 for a loaf of bread every week


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## brad

andrewf said:


> Hate to break it to you folks, but most farmers' markets are shams. It's people who buy produce from the same industrial farms as the grocery stores and resell. Real farmers don't have time to sell you carrots by the bunch.


I don't know if you could really say "most" farmers markets are shams. It's true that some of them are, but they're usually easy to spot because the produce looks like whatever you'd buy at the supermarket.

I have a friend who was a fulltime organic farmer for 12 years and he sold everything himself at farmers' markets; all the farmers there were screened by the market board, their farms visited, etc. They made the time to go to market because there was no other way (except for CSA) to sell their produce. Sometimes it was their spouses and kids or friends behind the counter, but there was no sham involved.

In the big-city markets you do get some distributors from industrial farms, but there are also real farmers who come and sell their stuff, and I know because I've been to their farms and bought stuff from them there as well as at the city market.


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## osc

Trader's Joe in US. Organic food at the same price as chemical food at SuperStore.


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## crazyjackcsa

osc said:


> Trader's Joe in US. Organic food at the same price as chemical food at SuperStore.


Hipster. 

You must live pretty close to the border to make the commute worthwhile, plus the duty and tarriffs, and the headache of taking fruit, vegtables and meat over the boarder


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## Jungle

Longs does have nice fresh bread, there meat and produce is a higher quality. 
We used to shop there and our grocery bills were about $400 month. 
But the same products like milk, cream, chips, pop, juice, can goods, bottle goods, etc can be found at the discount grocery stores and save a lot of money. The produce and meat is not _that_ bad. We make delicious meals almost every night and are perfectly healthy. 

Since we stopped going to Longos, our grocery bill went down about $100 month, or $1200 year.


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## Ethan

We shop at Safeway. For us it's about food quality, as I find their produce to be the freshest. I know its more expensive, but I wonder what the cost is of food I have bought at other places that goes bad quicker. Safeway is also 1km from our house, whereas the competitors are closer to 5km away.

I know some people drive around to different stores to get the best deals. When I think of the time involved and extra travel expense to do this, it doesn't prove a benefit to me relative to the cost saved.


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## AMABILE

*Grocery store of choice*

I used to run around to all the stores with the best deals,
however, now I only shop at a great new and clean
NO FRILLS and bring all the competitor's flyers with me,
and they match all their prices.


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## yupislyr

Jungle said:


> What sucks about walmart, is that the MBNA smart cash does not consider Walmart as a grocery store, so no 3% cash back on purchases.


I think it depends on the merchant code that Walmart itself has setup with the credit card companies.

The Walmart Supercentre here used to only give me 1% too but they've apparently finally changed their merchant code because I've been getting 3% since late last year. And groceries or not, I've been getting 3% cash back on all purchases at that store.


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## carverman

Plugging Along said:


> Sobeys dollar days are execellent deals and their hot deal of the week, I end up doing a lot of stocking up. *I bought 100lbs of chicken leg/thighs when they were $1/lb, that lasted about 18 months*. Get rainchecks if they run out, and then you can use it for another time when the prices are higher.


Thats a lot of chicken legs..and if takes 18 months to consume them, you
have to factor in the cost of electricity to run the freezer (not cheap these
days and certainly not cheap in the summer months when fridges and freezers
are running overtime. Meat and veggies that are in the freezer for that length of time
lose moisture and become dehydrated. You can realize the effects of freeze drying
when you take a wet item of washed clothing and hang it outside at minus-15C.
It will be dry when you bring it inside...and then you have to factor in the cost of the gas to 
get to the various groceries stores to find the bargains at gas being $1.12 a litre,
or whatever it costs in your vicinity.

I try and shop the specials in the stores that are within 1-2km from where
I live and only buy as much as I can consume within a month..unless it
is some special on canned goods or maybe cheese that is pretty expensive
most of the time.

I shop basically Price Chopper (because I can walk over), sometimes Loblaws
because I can use my PC points for groceries and sometimes at Costco, for
other things or specialty items like vitamins/shampoos etc. 

I share a Costco regular membership, so the $25 a year it costs me, I do
manage to save over the year, especially propane refills which are many
dollars cheaper than at service station prices. I figure that on 4 propane
refills in the summer (gas stove and propane bbq at the trailer), the savings
on propane alone, recover my portion of the $25 membership, but I'm
not sure that I shop enough there to recover the full $50 of membership
if I had to do it alone.

Costco seem to have good prices on frozen foods in larger sizes, but you have to be
mindful of freezer space and how long it is going to consume the food when you are living alone.
Buying that BIG bag of frozen fruit or veggies and saving money is one thing..but if your freezer
is already full...

Buying in bulk may be a frugal way to shop for some, but not for everyone
when you have 10lbs of bannas that you got a few cents cheaper per lb
going too ripe on you and have to be thrown into the green bin..unless
you can make banana loaf with them. 


With my gas guzzler truck, I also have to be mindful of the cost of driving around parts of the city to shop the bargains with gas consumption at about 5km per litre in the city.


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## MoneyGal

I'm with you...I don't keep more perishable food in my house than I can eat in a week (and my pantry is relatively modest as well). I live in a small downtown home in walking distance of several grocery stores - I don't feel the need to duplicate the storage they offer. And I gave away my chest freezer a few years ago. 

I recognize this is a personal preference though. Having too much physical stuff (in my house) to care for drives me insane. I think I have 6 pairs of shoes, which many of my female friends and peers think is totally unworkable.


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## carverman

yupislyr said:


> I think it depends on the merchant code that Walmart itself has setup with the credit card companies.
> 
> The Walmart Supercentre here used to only give me 1% too but they've apparently finally changed their merchant code because I've been getting 3% since late last year. And groceries or not, I've been getting 3% cash back on all purchases at that store.


3% sounds like a lot for a Store credit card rebate. Good for Walmart,but
I'm sure that you need to have a montly balance on your card to get the
full 3%.


You can get a similar deal .25% to 1.5% cash back) at Costco 
if you agree to use their Amex CC.

But considering that you need to spend over $2000 there to get something
more than just 0.25% cash back, it doesn't seem to be that much of a deal
to the consumer (.25% of $2000 is $5.00). Of course, if you spend more
(over $5000, you can get more back 1.5% or even 2% if you carry a 
monthly balance .

They want you to spend more and get into debt because then, they can charge you 19.99% 
per annum on the outstanding balance, and that's over 1.67% per month on new purchases 
+ interest on any unpaid balances...versus the 0.25% or 1.5% or even 2.0% they
give back to you if you carry a balance, and there are yearly maximums on some of these schemes. 

The way I see it..the store(s) /credit card issuers are making far more money off these
schemes than they are giving you back in the form of cash back dollars. 
But it's a way to attract customer loyalty in these new economic times, so it seems to work.


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## HaroldCrump

AMABILE said:


> I used to run around to all the stores with the best deals,
> however, now I only shop at a great new and clean
> NO FRILLS and bring all the competitor's flyers with me,
> and they match all their prices.


No Frills is the most moronic store on the planet.
They continue to refuse to accept Visa credit cards.
And I refuse to shop there.
I cannot imagine a more asinine policy than not accepting the world's most popular card.


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## the-royal-mail

And No Frills charges for plastic grocery bags. I realize many others do this as well and the plastic grocery bag debate is dominated by greenies. I get that, believe me. But the stores don't do it to be green. They do it to make money. Watch any checkout lane and lots of people are paying the nickel per bag. Or worse yet paying $1 or more for filthy "reusable" (as if plastic bags aren't reuseable -- I reuse mine for all sorts of things) lead-filled bags that rarely get washed. They also don't have much capacity so you need to spend several dollars to have enough of those. Again, not to open the green debate, but I despise any kind of add-on fees. There are other stores such as Sobey's and others (Super Value?) in the east that went back to giving out free bags, simply because people need bags to get their groceries home.

If stores were serious about the green aspect, they would REWARD people to reuse by offering a DISCOUNT if you take no new bags. They would also make their disposable bags out of strong, recyclable materials.

Point is, this type of nickling and diming in the name of being green rakes in a lot of profit for these outfits. I favour those that don't do this, or do the least of it.


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## HaroldCrump

the-royal-mail said:


> And No Frills charges for plastic grocery bags.
> ....
> If stores were serious about the green aspect, they would REWARD people to reuse by offering a DISCOUNT if you take no new bags. They would also make their disposable bags out of strong, recyclable materials.
> 
> Point is, this type of nickling and diming in the name of being green rakes in a lot of profit for these outfits. I favour those that don't do this, or do the least of it.


Excellent point - that's another reason why I don't shop there.
When the city of Toronto banned plastic bags, the stores didn't really "ban" them - they simply started charging 5c. for them.
And I didn't see any prices coming down because of that.


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## brad

the-royal-mail said:


> If stores were serious about the green aspect, they would REWARD people to reuse by offering a DISCOUNT if you take no new bags.


MEC has been doing this for years, although you don't get the discount yourself: if you don't use a bag, a nickel goes to the various outdoor and environmental groups they support (http://www.mec.ca/Main/content_text.jsp?FOLDER<>folder_id=1408474396038943).

For a while some of the supermarkets here gave you a 5 cent discount if you brought your own bag; I think some stores still do but in general you're right, the rule is bring your own bag and save 5 cents per bag, or buy a bag from the store. The provincial liquor stores here in Québec don't even provide bags anymore, although you can buy cloth ones from them but they're pretty expensive, so people learned very quickly to bring their own.


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## Toronto.gal

NO FRILLS is only 2 minutes away from me, so that is where I shop for convenience and time saving. Also, the store in my area is huge, clean & carries a good variety of ethnic foods, kosher items, etc., but I realize that not all stores offer same variety. They don't have a butcher nor a bakery counter, but it doesn't bother me.

I agree about the charge for bags, but I can overlook that when I see that a Kellogg's cereal box is about $2 less than at Metro's or Fortino's for example or a Pantene hair conditioner at $3 less than at Shopper's & still cheaper even when Shoppers has it on sale & the same is true with dozens of items. 

Bruno's & Pusateris are the next closest stores to me, grant it that the quality is far superior, but so are the prices that I just can't justify, I have a simple palate I guess, however, I shop there on occasion for pastries! 

And though I like Costco and not too far from me, I don't like to buy in bulk and no way I would ever pay a membership fee for such a store!


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## andrewf

the-royal-mail said:


> And No Frills charges for plastic grocery bags. I realize many others do this as well and the plastic grocery bag debate is dominated by greenies. I get that, believe me. But the stores don't do it to be green. They do it to make money. Watch any checkout lane and lots of people are paying the nickel per bag. Or worse yet paying $1 or more for filthy "reusable" (as if plastic bags aren't reuseable -- I reuse mine for all sorts of things) lead-filled bags that rarely get washed. They also don't have much capacity so you need to spend several dollars to have enough of those. Again, not to open the green debate, but I despise any kind of add-on fees. There are other stores such as Sobey's and others (Super Value?) in the east that went back to giving out free bags, simply because people need bags to get their groceries home.
> 
> If stores were serious about the green aspect, they would REWARD people to reuse by offering a DISCOUNT if you take no new bags. They would also make their disposable bags out of strong, recyclable materials.
> 
> Point is, this type of nickling and diming in the name of being green rakes in a lot of profit for these outfits. I favour those that don't do this, or do the least of it.


A couple misperceptions here. One, at least some of the big retailers donate the proceeds from the bag sale to charity such as WWF. Two, at least some of the big retailers do offer rewards for using reusable bags, such as 5 cents worth of reward points. Three, selling bags uses more labour than the profit on a bag would be. It's not a big moneymaker. Charging for bags is not an evil plot to rake in billions of dollars. If you think those bags are so great, surely you don't mind paying for them. I stopped using them before stores even started charging for them, mostly because I didn't want great wads of bags in my house. It's not a big deal to wash the bags (mine wash beautifully), and I haven't had any problems with the bag containing the milk breaking under the strain like I did with disposables, etc. 

Whether they pay you to not use bags (and build that cost into the price of goods) or charge you to use bags is pretty immaterial. I don't see the point in getting exercised about it. My bags have paid for themselves with reward points I get for using them.


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## Toronto.gal

HaroldCrump said:


> No Frills is the most moronic store on the planet.
> They continue to refuse to accept Visa credit cards.


Agreed about the visa card, I guess that's one of the ways to keep their costs lower, but at least they accept debit unlike Tim Horton's, which until very recently did not even accept that; if I'm not mistaken, I believe they only accept MasterCard.


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## HaroldCrump

Toronto.gal said:


> Agreed about the visa card, I guess that's one of the ways to keep their costs lower, but at least they accept debit unlike Tim Horton's, which until very recently did not even accept that; if I'm not mistaken, I believe they only accept MasterCard.


Tim Hortons I get.
Average purchase amount there is usually under $5.
Their efficiency depends on how fast they can process orders and keep the lines moving.
I totally understand them not accepting cards of any type.

But a grocery store?
They are being penny wise pound foolish if they think they are saving costs by not accepting Visa.


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## the-royal-mail

HaroldCrump said:


> Tim Hortons I get.
> Average purchase amount there is usually under $5.
> Their efficiency depends on how fast they can process orders and keep the lines moving.
> I totally understand them not accepting cards of any type.


I completely agree. The last thing that store needs is people slowing everyone down because they are friggin' around with a debit card and all the related problems. Carry cash. It's fast, safe, convenient and cheap.


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## brad

andrewf said:


> My bags have paid for themselves with reward points I get for using them.


Not to mention your karma points. 

Seriously, if someone is "frugal" it makes sense to expand the concept beyond their own self-interest and try to minimize waste and inefficiency in general. Using one bag over and over (I've had most of my shopping bags for 8 or 9 years now and they're still in great shape) compared with getting a new disposable grocery bag every time you go to the store is a no-brainer.


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## K-133

> If stores were serious about the green aspect, they would REWARD people to reuse by offering a DISCOUNT if you take no new bags. They would also make their disposable bags out of strong, recyclable materials


My understanding was that if you had a PC MC, and use reusable bags, you got points for it. I don't use the PC MC anymore, nor do I shop at any PC branded stores, so I can't say how it is now. But that's how it was about a year ago.


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## Toronto.gal

Good point, I got it now. I suppose more people use Visa than MasterCard, hence the reason T.Hortons accepts the latter.


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## Guest

Young&Ambitious said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> What grocery store do frugal people choose? I'm close to a bunch: WalMart, Safeway, SaveonFoods, Choices, Canadian Superstore, CostCo (I have friends w/ memberships) and more yet. Even the dollar stores have shelf food! With so many options I am now wondering where does one go to get the most bang for their buck?
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say!


I am frugal, I grocery shop at the Superstore here in Ottawa, Westboro ... I carry a PC MC and so cash in the accumulated points now and then towards groceries ... I bring my own container and so get a few points for that ... I only buy enough food to fill that container (aka food for the week) and so tend not to buy stuff that sits in the fridge for a week and then gets thrown out.


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## Doug Out West

If RCSS is equal to Costco or others in price then won't coupons like spent and get $25 gift card make it cheaper for sure?


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## GeniusBoy27

For me, Costco and No Frills!


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## the-royal-mail

I need bags for my garbage cans as well as my pet's waste. I shop at stores which provide bags, which are used for this purpose. Whether or not a big box lines their pockets by charging 10 cents per bag, does not change these realities. Even if I had to buy bags at retail, I would still use them. This policy has NOT reduced my bag usage at all but lined the pockets of the big boxes instead.


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## HaroldCrump

the-royal-mail said:


> I need bags for my garbage cans as well as my pet's waste. I shop at stores which provide bags, which are used for this purpose. Whether or not a big box lines their pockets by charging 10 cents per bag, does not change these realities. Even if I had to buy bags at retail, I would still use them. This policy has NOT reduced my bag usage at all but lined the pockets of the big boxes instead.


Wal*Mart does not charge for bags and I appreciate it.
That is one of the reasons I shop there.
Businesses succeed by bringing in customers - not turning them away by asinine policies like not accepting major credit cards, charging 5c. for a bag, etc.
Last I checked, Wal*Mart accepted every kind of card known to mankind.
They are among the very few Canadian retailers that accept Discover Card (an awesome card, IMHO).
Heck, they even accepted Diners Club while it was around.

Businesses succeed by bringing in customers, not turning them away.


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## K-133

HaroldCrump said:


> Businesses succeed by bringing in customers, not turning them away.


Good point. 

Though I think you can turn it around. Walmart's goal is to get everyone in their store. They succeed at this by taking on the liability of offering every type of service.

A niche business is after a very particular group, and will likely fail if they do what Walmart does to try to get everyone in the door due to the liabilities involved. Heck, they don't want everyone in their doors, and they can still be considered successful.

Though different, this reminds me of the book Small Giants; some company's can be successful by choosing to be great at what they do, rather than becoming big.

Though, I also think that being big is integral to Walmart being great at what it is they do (i.e. controlling their supply chain by strangling it into submission).


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## andrewf

I'll say it again for TRM's benefit: at least some of the retailers are giving the proceeds to charity. It's not exactly fattening their pockets.


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## the-royal-mail

andrew, never feel you need to post for my "benefit". I'll be devastated without your brief comments that merely pick apart any of my posts you disagree with, but I too shall overcome.


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## andrewf

You're right, it wasn't for your benefit. I just have a problem letting not-quite-true claims slide.


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## Sherlock

I just go to whatever is the closest, which in my case is a Loblaws. The amount of money I would save by going to a cheaper grocery store like No Frills would be negated by the extra gas to get to it, not to mention wear and tear on my car and time in traffic. Also they make their own fresh donuts which many other groceries don't and I always buy two or three.


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## andrewf

I thought they had stopped doing that.


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## canabiz

I usually shop at Costco, Loblaws and T&T for Asian food. I used to frequent RCSS (and still do if I am in the area) but since I moved to the suburbs a few years ago, there is no point driving to the closest RCSS which is at least 30 minutes away.


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## Pigzfly

the-royal-mail said:


> If stores were serious about the green aspect, they would REWARD people to reuse by offering a DISCOUNT if you take no new bags. They would also make their disposable bags out of strong, recyclable materials.


Choices Market gives you 5 cents or so for using reusable bags; more if it is one of their branded bags. My mom got some Choices bags for free from other people/garage sale. 

Overwaitea/Save-On/Smart something, give you store points. They don't charge for bags either.

I am pretty happy to see how far cashiers have come. When my mom was using reusable cloth bags at Safeway 12 years ago, half the time the cashiers would take the bags (designed by safeway to fit into their bagging racks), fill plastic bags with groceries and then put them inside.


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## Pigzfly

Not too much choice in this little town. 2 major grocery stores, both of which can be expensive due to shipping costs/location/clientele, best bet would be to shop both, but that's a lot of effort for the reward. One store has a discount produce and bakery section, with 50% off stickers. They also put those stickers on things which are about to go bad. The other day they had a big bin of whole wheat pasta boxes with the stickers, it was an exciting day for me, haha. 

Whenever we go to a bigger city (approx 100kms away), I go to Giant Tiger, Liquidation World, Zellers, sometimes Walmart. Giant Tiger can have really good prices sometimes, other times not so good. Over the last two times there was expiring that day Tropicana for 99 cents, mini mandarins for 1.99, brand name salmon cans for $1 ea (no limit), good DVDs for $2.99 (Christmas presents), brand name tuna for $1. 

Whenever we go to Alberta, we buy alcohol. This is technically illegal (same with going to Quebec, dear Ontarians). You have to know your product (esp wines), but there are some great deals to be had.


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## yupislyr

carverman said:


> 3% sounds like a lot for a Store credit card rebate. Good for Walmart,but
> I'm sure that you need to have a montly balance on your card to get the
> full 3%.


It's not a store credit card. As was mentioned in the post I was replying to, it's an MBNA Smartcash Mastercard. And no you don't need to have a monthly balance. All purchases at grocery stores and gas stations (up to $600 per month, per account) get 3% cash back. Beyond that amount and at other stores you get 1%.

Walmart does have their own Mastercard now but even instore the return looks to be only 1.25%


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## canabiz

yupislyr said:


> It's not a store credit card. As was mentioned in the post I was replying to, it's an MBNA Smartcash Mastercard. And no you don't need to have a monthly balance. All purchases at grocery stores and gas stations (up to $600 per month, per account) get 3% cash back. Beyond that amount and at other stores you get 1%.
> 
> Walmart does have their own Mastercard now but even instore the return looks to be only 1.25%


Just to add a small footnote that you get 5% back in the first 6 months for qualifying purchases at grocery stores and gas stations.

Folks have been buying gift cards at the aforementioned places to top it up as well.


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## Pigzfly

canabiz said:


> Just to add a small footnote that you get 5% back in the first 6 months for qualifying purchases at grocery stores and gas stations.
> 
> Folks have been buying gift cards at the aforementioned places to top it up as well.


I think I saw somewhere (redflag maybe?) that the $600 is per month, not per billing cycle? Does anyone know? (sorry - off topic)
I just switched an mbna card of mine to smart cash, it should show up in the mail this week.


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## barnabam

Safeway. Hands down. Reaon: airmiles. We spend enough money at Safeway that, with airmiles redemptions on Shell $20 gas coupons, we literally have $700 in free fuel per annum. Completed a redemption two weeks ago that will net us $460 in fuel and its only April.

Prices may be slightly higher, but the quality is much better than the RCSS close buy (meat was brown all the time!! don't they cool this stuff?). Recently, Safeway has also reduced thier prices in our neck of the woods (Calgary) making it much more competitive with RCSS.

But the airmiles wins it for me every time ...


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## Echo

@barnabam
I do the same thing with Air Miles, although I don't get nearly as much back as you do I still manage to subsidize my gas budget by about $400/year.

Safeway is the closest grocery store to my house (by far) so I put up with the higher prices for convenience (and Air Miles).

I go to Costco once a month and purchase meat in bulk, their prices are reasonable and the quality is very high.


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## FrugalTrader

We live in an area that's within walking distance to a major big box shopping centre, so we do all of our grocery shopping at whatever is closest - Loblaws, Walmart and Costco.


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## the-royal-mail

What's RCSS? 

Anyway, I don't shop at Safeway and I don't do loyalty programs. I am offended with how they track my purchases and sell the info to marketing and research companies. I pay with cash and am offended at how high their cash prices are. They are not competitive with the other big guys. And yes, I've checked recently as I had heard they lowered their prices. But for cash buyers, the prices are still higher than the others that give me a good cash price without all the tracking/loyalty programs.

The true apples to apples comparison needs to be on the cash prices vs. the competitors. In that regard, Safeway fares poorly.


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## w0nger

rcss = real canadian superstore


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## travelgeek

Whole Foods. It is within walking distance and has a wide selection of organic foods.


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## realist

the-royal-mail said:


> And No Frills charges for plastic grocery bags. I realize many others do this as well and the plastic grocery bag debate is dominated by greenies. I get that, believe me. But the stores don't do it to be green. They do it to make money. Watch any checkout lane and lots of people are paying the nickel per bag. ...If stores were serious about the green aspect, they would REWARD people to reuse by offering a DISCOUNT if you take no new bags. They would also make their disposable bags out of strong, recyclable materials.
> 
> Point is, this type of nickling and diming in the name of being green rakes in a lot of profit for these outfits. I favour those that don't do this, or do the least of it.


No Frills was doing this well before it became the "green" thing to do. Ostensibly that is part of why the prices are cheaper. Personally I think its great. Why should you pay more for groceries just so I can have a "free" bag? Loblaws gives you PC Points if you bring a bag. Does NO Frills not?

The reason they don't accept Visa is that Loblaws/No Frills has a deal with Mastercard.


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## Addy

I can't stand supermarkets. I mainly shop at mom and pop stores. I live about a four min walk to an awesome butcher, about the same distant to two different bakeries, and we had a fresh veggie store about a five min walk from our house but sadly it closed two years ago. We even have a local cheese store about a ten min walk away.


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## the-royal-mail

Ah yes. Long live the local mom and pop places. Then I don't have to be a victim to all this corporate control and quarelling over a plastic bag with which to carry my purchases home. As a kid we tried to support the local bakery and butcher as much as possible. Of course, that was small town life but we still made occasional trips into the city to get various things that were best bought at the grocery store.


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## HaroldCrump

realist said:


> The reason they don't accept Visa is that Loblaws/No Frills has a deal with Mastercard.


And for that precise reason, No Frills does not get my weekly groceries business.

Loblaws does accept Visa though, it's just No Frills that is the prick.

In any case, I find the prices much better at Wal*Mart Supercenter and they accept any and all forms of payment, including the wonderful Discover Card.
They don't rip you off on plastic bags.
I see no reason to shop anywhere else, least of all at No Frills


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## BETTYVEE

I've struggled with this one and still can't make up my mind. To splurge and pay a premium for healthier food or cheap out and save money?

I was shopping at Loblaws for their decent selection of organic veggies and fruits but found I was spending too much for a single girl so I switched to NoFrills. 

Now I find myself going to markets (St.Lawrence or other neighbourhood "farmers market") to feel good about the food I am buying/eating but as someone mentioned I may be "shaming" myself into believing it makes any difference..to my health or to my "local" farmers..*sigh

It seems you can't win..lol

as a side note..Wal-mart food gives me the hibbyjibbies hehe..It's like they scream GM. Not meant to judge anyone Im just saying when I see grapes and strawberries so freakishly huge, it doesn't seem natural.


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## the-royal-mail

Hi Betty, you said: "I find myself going to markets (St.Lawrence or other neighbourhood "farmers market") to feel good about the food I am buying/eating but as someone mentioned I may be "shaming" myself into believing it makes any difference..."

Sorry...why did someone suggest buying from farmer's markets won't make any difference? Why did they say that?

I do agree with your comments about GM food. You've seen Food Inc, right? There's a reason the big boxes can sell stuff for so "cheap".

A garden might work for you in the summer time if you have the back yard?


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## HaroldCrump

BETTYVEE said:


> as a side note..Wal-mart food gives me the hibbyjibbies hehe..It's like they scream GM. Not meant to judge anyone Im just saying when I see grapes and strawberries so freakishly huge, it doesn't seem natural.


Wal*Marts in Canada acquire their fresh produce from the same sources as other large grocery stores like Loblaws, etc.
All packages (produce and meats) are clearly labeled with the source and country of origin.
I find food from the same sources in all grocery stores, and I regularly visit RCSS, Metro and Wal*mart, although the bulk of the shopping is at Wal*Mart.

GM food requires separate labeling and separate product code prefix, just like organic food.
However, cross contamination is a huge issue, but that applies to all types of food sources used by other grocery stores as well.

As for non food items, we all know where that comes from and no other store is any different.


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## andrewf

Maybe she meant 'screams GM' in terms of general merchandise. It's like buying your food at Canadian Tire, with the smell of tires and motor oil in the air.


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## brad

BETTYVEE said:


> I
> as a side note..Wal-mart food gives me the hibbyjibbies hehe..It's like they scream GM. Not meant to judge anyone Im just saying when I see grapes and strawberries so freakishly huge, it doesn't seem natural.


But when you think about it, none of the produce we eat was ever "natural," even before genetic engineering came into the picture. Nearly every type of vegetable and fruit that you find in a supermarket or farmer's market, or in your own garden, has been genetically modified over centuries through artificial selection (by humans) for desired traits. So you can find huge strawberries, grapes, and blueberries the size of normal grapes -- none of which exist in nature. Much of the food we eat stopped being "natural" about 10,000 years ago.


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## Addy

BETTYVEE said:


> Now I find myself going to markets (St.Lawrence or other neighbourhood "farmers market") to feel good about the food I am buying/eating but as someone mentioned I may be "shaming" myself into believing it makes any difference..to my health or to my "local" farmers...


It is work to find true local, organic farmers. You pretty much have to visit the farm (although not always).

That reminds me, a girl at work was flirting with the boss, and amongst the flirting she says "oh, I've totally turned into natural girl... I just bought chicken from the Hutterites..."

Our boss started laughing, and proceeded to tell her the Hutterite farms are the ipidomy of mass factory farming! I too could not believe what this girl thought was natural...


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## HaroldCrump

Addy said:


> That reminds me, a girl at work was flirting with the boss, and amongst the flirting she says "oh, I've totally turned into natural girl... I just bought chicken from the Hutterites..."


Interesting...in my opinion, a girl "turning natural" has nothing to do with where she buys her groceries from


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## Addy

HaroldCrump said:


> Interesting...in my opinion, a girl "turning natural" has nothing to do with where she buys her groceries from


Hense the flirting comments...


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## BETTYVEE

Good point brad..not sure how to argue against that.

Maybe im judging walmart unjustly and being overly paranoid but I have never seen a label for fruits and veggies that say GM, anywhere. Maybe Im not looking right?

Although I have seen it on ingredient list for processed food!


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## Addy

BETTYVEE said:


> Maybe im judging walmart unjustly and being overly paranoid but I have never seen a label for fruits and veggies that say GM, anywhere. Maybe Im not looking right?


I was positive fruits and veggies did not have to be labeled GMO! It sounds like I was wrong on this? I too judge walmarts veggies as gross and so lacking in nutrition to the point they aren't worth buying.


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## ChrisR

HaroldCrump said:


> GM food requires separate labeling and separate product code prefix, just like organic food.
> However, cross contamination is a huge issue, but that applies to all types of food sources used by other grocery stores as well.


I don't think GM food requires any special labeling in this country. If it does, I can't find it on any of the foods in my own kitchen that I know are GM.

I do agree with you that the supermarket you're shopping at doesn't really matter. That margarine you're buying is GM, doesn't matter if you get for $2.99 at Walmart or $5.47 at Safeway!


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## andrewf

I find it hard to get worked up about GMO, especially from a nutritional perspective.


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## BETTYVEE

ChrisR said:


> I don't think GM food requires any special labeling in this country.


I think thats a problem.

As for the margarine, thats kinda obvious and while I am not 100% successful in this; I try to avoid processed food as much as possible. Maybe I am being a fool to playing into the whole "organic" food and I know we definitely do not regulate how that is defined but in my mind im at least trying to make an effort and loblaws offers the widest and moderately priced produce (compared to whole foods or the big carrot) of all the grocery chains out there...in my opinion..


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## brad

BETTYVEE said:


> I try to avoid processed food as much as possible.


That's a good move. Most processed food, even including things like white rice (high glycemic index, low fiber), is not good for your health over the long term. When you cook things yourself from scratch you at least know what went into it.

I'm not convinced that organic food brings a significant reduction in health risk to adults, but it probably does to children given their greater susceptibility to being affected by pesticide residues, and the fact that kids tend to eat more foods that typically have high levels of pesticide residues (apples, grapes, etc.). And there's no evidence that I've seen to indicate that organic foods are more nutritious. But organic agriculture is generally better for the environment (some studies even call that into question, but I do think the benefits outweigh any negative impacts), and if I can afford to buy produce that's not treated with pesticides and fungicides etc., I might as well do it in case it does reduce my health risk. So I generally buy organic as well.


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## realist

IMHO the environmental benefits of organic food is more significant than the health benefits. The health benefits vary depending on the type of food. E.g. in a fruit you peel before you eat it vs. a fruit you eat the skin of. 


That said, If you had a two bottles of water, the first is $1 and is pure, and the second is 95 cents, but contains .00005% rat poison. Which would you buy? What percentage of rat poison will you accept before your answer changes? 


re: GMOs, if its perfectly safe it should be labeled so people can choose to eat it or not eat it.


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## Addy

I think certain foods should only be eaten if they are organic (of which foods I only have the dirty dozen lists to go by, so I'm no expert WHAT foods), and others probably don't matter. For instance... organic maple syrup... is there such a thing as non-organic maple syrup??


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## brad

Addy said:


> is there such a thing as non-organic maple syrup??


Actually yes -- some producers inject chemicals in their maple trees to increase their production of sap; I'm not sure if those chemicals are harmful to health or not, but if you don't support this practice you can seek out organic maple syrup.

The one that gave me a laugh, though, was when I was driving on a backwoods road in Vermont and saw a sign for "organic firewood." It was just a joke, of course, but I wonder if anyone took it seriously.


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## HaroldCrump

brad said:


> The one that gave me a laugh, though, was when I was driving on a backwoods road in Vermont and saw a sign for "organic firewood." It was just a joke, of course, but I wonder if anyone took it seriously.


I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a joke.
There is a lot of misinformed labeling in food, and some of it is frankly deliberately misleading for consumers.
For example, many vegetable oils carry large labels declaring _cholesterol free_ or _zero cholesterol_.
While technically correct, it is impossible for any type of plant based oil to contain any cholesterol.
Such labeling makes the product appear healthier than it is.


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## andrewf

realist said:


> IMHO the environmental benefits of organic food is more significant than the health benefits. The health benefits vary depending on the type of food. E.g. in a fruit you peel before you eat it vs. a fruit you eat the skin of.
> 
> 
> That said, If you had a two bottles of water, the first is $1 and is pure, and the second is 95 cents, but contains .00005% rat poison. Which would you buy? What percentage of rat poison will you accept before your answer changes?
> 
> 
> re: GMOs, if its perfectly safe it should be labeled so people can choose to eat it or not eat it.


This isn't accurate. Both 'organic' and conventionally grown food have environmental contaminants. In your example, it's probably more like asking whether you'd buy water with 0.0001% rat poison for $2 or water with 0.0005% for $1. What if the safe level is 0.2%?

My problem with organic is that it does a lot of things that are not evidence based. It also uses (or has used) some really horrific 'natural' pesticides. Many modern pesticides are relatively benign and decay very quickly in the environment. And rejecting GMO outright is incredibly shortsighted. Unless 'organic' can give reasonable yields, much more wild space will have to be dedicated to agriculture in order to feed the world, or some people are going to have to starve. There are unintended consequences everywhere.


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## Sustainable PF

We won't shop @ Walmart, frugality be damned. There is far too much "wrong" with Walmart for us to shop there, period. 

We prefer to use No Frills, Loblaws and Price Chopper. They are all within 3km drive from each other so we opt to flyer shop.

We also use Kawartha Dairy to get fresh and local dairy products.


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## realist

andrewf said:


> This isn't accurate. Both 'organic' and conventionally grown food have environmental contaminants. In your example, it's probably more like asking whether you'd buy water with 0.0001% rat poison for $2 or water with 0.0005% for $1. What if the safe level is 0.2%?
> 
> My problem with organic is that it does a lot of things that are not evidence based. It also uses (or has used) some really horrific 'natural' pesticides. Many modern pesticides are relatively benign and decay very quickly in the environment. And rejecting GMO outright is incredibly shortsighted. Unless 'organic' can give reasonable yields, much more wild space will have to be dedicated to agriculture in order to feed the world, or some people are going to have to starve. There are unintended consequences everywhere.


What if the safe level for ONE product is 2% but you are ingesting the equivalent of 5% by getting a little bit in everything you eat? Similarly, there has been no long term testing of the effects of eating a variety of GMO products over time, and over generations. It would have been impossible to do so since the products haven't been in the market long enough to have done the studies. 

I agree that there is probably a place for GMO products, but the idea that the world can't feed itself without them is a fallacy. We already have more than enough food to feed the world. We have a distribution problem, not a production problem. There are a number of studies out there that show that smaller organic farms actually outproduce the big factory farms. A bigger issue is that we are building homes over our best arable land, and ruining the rest of it with nutrient depletion and overuse of petrochemicals. 

Anyways, the point being that often paying less at the cash register just means that we are paying with our taxes and our health elsewhere, or more often than not someone else is paying with their health.


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## Dmoney

Sustainable PF said:


> We won't shop @ Walmart, frugality be damned. There is far too much "wrong" with Walmart for us to shop there, period.


I have to say that I absolutely love Walmart. Although I won't buy any of their sketchy store brand products, since I'm scared of the quality, they sell brand names for well below what any other stores do.


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## humble_pie

andrew could you please give some examples of "really horrific 'natural' pesticides" used by organic farmers, or used by them in the past.

cannot think of any so would appreciate, thankx.


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## el oro

realist said:


> There are a number of studies out there that show that smaller organic farms actually outproduce the big factory farms. [\QUOTE]
> 
> I believe the studies prove that small is more productive than big for farms. That's due to big farms typically having only one crop vs multiple crops on smaller farms and not due to organic vs. GMO/conventional. Scaling up these small multi-crop farms would likely require a lot more labour since the heavy equipment of mono-crop farms would not be suitable.
> 
> GMO definitely has a place such as projects looking at putting nutrients into the common staples of third world countries. See golden rice.


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## andrewf

Rotenone is still used as an insecticide in organic agriculture. It's moderately toxic to mammals and highly toxic to insects (and it's unselective, so it's nighty night for a lot of beneficial insects as well). It's a neurotoxin.

Copper sulfate based fungicides can be used in organic agriculture and is toxic to mammals. Poorly protected workers have been killed by poisoning with this substance.


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## andrewf

I`m not enamoured with factory farming per se. They should be required to internalize the costs of or prevent soil depletion, nutrient run-off, pesticide residuals, etc. I`m sure there`s something to be said for intensive multi-species farming. I`m a fervent believer that agricultural subsidies need to be eliminated, as they are an enormous waste and contribute to hunger and depressed development in the developing world. 

Every domesticated plant species is genetically modified from its wild antecedent. So, since we`re already totally reliant on genetically modified organisms for our survival, we should proceed from a position of reasonable caution and not dismissive ideological purity. Suggesting that novel GMOs need to be tested for a dozen generations is suggesting that the serious people should ignore you. It`s like asking every new medication to go through decades of clinical trials. The risks are not so substantial.


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## realist

andrewf said:


> Every domesticated plant species is genetically modified from its wild antecedent. So, since we`re already totally reliant on genetically modified organisms for our survival, we should proceed from a position of reasonable caution and not dismissive ideological purity.


This is a fallacy. There is a massive difference between genetically "modifying" food by cross breeding plants that can naturally reproduce together, and genetically engineering things across species lines. (e.g. not naturally possible).



andrewf said:


> They should be required to internalize the costs of or prevent soil depletion, nutrient run-off, pesticide residuals, etc.


This would include the *risk* associated with GEngineeredOs. So far the vast majority of GEOs serve only to allow for increased use of pesticides... with no benefit to the consumer whatsoever.


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## andrewf

What risks? Genetic engineering isn't going away. You either need to be involved in serious discussions of risk/benefit, or you need to be prepared to be ignored.


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## brad

Here's a good place to start learning for those who are curious about the risks associated with any type of genetic modifications (whether through cross-breeding or other techniques: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10977&page=R1


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## BETTYVEE

The biggest problem is that we do not have enough information or concrete evidence of what these risks are but that does not mean they do not exist.

It's like a pandoras box, once open damage can't be undone. Take for example the prevalence of Superweeds. These weeds that have been contaminated with the herbicide resistant DNA from crops like Monsanto's "Roundup Ready Soybean" are just the beginning. 

You are right though, GE has been around for a long time and the issue is not going away. I just wish there was a much more open dialogue about it, instead of secretive rulings that have global consequences. Right now the FDA is deciding wether they will approve a GE salmon called AquAdvantage. Once it is approved and contamination reaches wild species it doesn't matter any more if I chose to only eat organic food. The decision will be made for me..that's not cool!


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## andrewf

I think the hyperventilation and people in lobster suits outside grocery stores probably contributed greatly to these issues being moved to the back rooms rather than being open for reasoned public examination and debate.

Well, that and the insane lobbying rules in the US.


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## barnabam

the-royal-mail said:


> What's RCSS?
> 
> Anyway, I don't shop at Safeway and I don't do loyalty programs. I am offended with how they track my purchases and sell the info to marketing and research companies. I pay with cash and am offended at how high their cash prices are. They are not competitive with the other big guys. And yes, I've checked recently as I had heard they lowered their prices. But for cash buyers, the prices are still higher than the others that give me a good cash price without all the tracking/loyalty programs.
> 
> The true apples to apples comparison needs to be on the cash prices vs. the competitors. In that regard, Safeway fares poorly.


Give them fake information. They wont check up on it.


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## kcowan

To get competitive prices at Safeway, you need to shop their specials and use their card.


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## canabiz

royal-mail: RCSS is Real Canadian Superstore which is owned by Loblaws.

There is no Safeway in Ottawa or Toronto that I know of (I believe there used to be some stores in the 1960's or 1970's)


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## betsu63

*Grocery store*

In Canada-Real Canadian Superstore
In US-Aldi


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## groceryalerts

Locally, I am starting to shop more at Save-on-Foods. 

They have started to allow coupon stacking.


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