# New Computer



## Dopplegangerr (Sep 3, 2011)

I am thinking about getting a new computer. I have two laptops I use. My main one is from 2003 and is on its last legs, the second is a small Toshiba note book I really only use for travel because its so small and its a bit tough to use because of the keyboard.

I was thinking of getting a desktop with two monitors. I have these dreams about being able to research stocks and watching the market at the same time. I will also be doing some downloading. watching some youtube videos and playing music. I will not be doing any gaming or video editing or anything like that.
I am just starting to research now but wanted to know opinions from the good people on this forum.

Are you able to just hook two monitors up to one computer and set it so the mouse works on both and can display different things at the same time?

Any hardware I should get for hardware?

When does windows 8 come out? Is it worth waiting for?

I have never had a new computer, always hand me downs or bought used. I am keen to get something nice and am not sure my budget. But considering I spend hours and hours in front of the comp a day I dont mind paying for something nice.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, it is possible to have two displays work that way. You need a computer with two video outputs. If you buy from Futureshop or Bestbuy the sales person can help you with that. You can also put in an aftermarket video card (doesn't need to be a high end one). You might consider getting a solid state drive to run your OS on. Makes boot times and application load times faster. You can have a large magnetic disk for storing media as well.

Just about any computer out there will meet your needs--as long as it can handle the OS. Windows 8 is basically Windows 7 with a phone operating system on top of it. Windows 7 is still a pretty good bet.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Can I ask what you use the computer for before giving some advise?


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I have two separate systems on my desk ,one for work stuff and the other is just for emails and surfing.I went with the all in one to save desk space.I have laptops but really not crazy about them , just me I am old school so like to sit at a desk and work in proper environment lol


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Here's a picture of mine:

http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/linkstuff-new-dual-monitor-edition/

It's awesome to have 2 monitors.

No expert, but I'm pretty sure if you buy new equipment, you can just plug 2 monitors in and away you go.

Do it!


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Four Pillars said:


> No expert, but I'm pretty sure if you buy new equipment, you can just plug 2 monitors in and away you go.


Not so fast. It took me all of 3 minutes to find a desktop with one video output on FutureShop web site:

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/prod...puter-ps-vamp3-010-ps-vamp3-010/10212703.aspx

It's not particularly cheap and it's not refurbished. And - GASP! - the single video output is analog VGA.

If you want to have two monitors, you need a computer with two video outputs. Most desktops sold at FutureShop or BestBuy come with integrated video cards. They typically have one digital (DVI) and one analog (VGA) outputs. The first monitor will be running in digital mode; the second one in analog mode. You might notice a difference in picture quality. Ideally, you want to run both monitors in digital mode. That requires a video card with two DVI outputs.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I would avoid big box stores like Futureshop for computers. They are in the business of watering down computers (and other big ticket electronics) as much as possible without the average consumer noticing. Their computers have weak power supplies and cheap cases, low quality components like fans/wires etc (while the specs look fine on paper for the price). Lots of horror stories of them not supporting their warranty that is pushed aggressively by commissioned salesmen. Their TVs/receivers have unique model numbers for a reason (they have been "modified")

If you're in Ontario, try Canada Computers or a small independent store that specializes in computers. You will get far better bang for your buck and service/support at a store like that. I haven't been to Canada Computers in years but they used to give a discount for non-credit sales, the kind of store that doesn't play all the marketing games and looks more like a baren warehouse than a Disney Land. Their salespeople have knowledge of computers, instead of knowledge of how to screw you over for commission. They usually have better quality parts for the same price or less than the big box stores.

You could just buy the computer from a store like that and order a couple Samsung screens from a site like Nextag, Tigerdirect, Newegg etc (pretty much any website in Canada will have better deals than a B&M store) The most economical way is to build the computer yourself. It's really not that complicated and a google search will explain any hiccups. That way you can easily swap/upgrade parts in the future yourself (you will probably want solid state drives in a few years) or even rebuild the computer without buying a new case etc. You can also easily return parts to web sites if they don't work or fail under warranty. You will end up with higher quality parts this way.

For the hassle factor, a small computer store will provide good service for a decent price. You may get a better components hand picking yourself, and save a bit but you have to read some reviews/instructions and use a screwdriver.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Mac


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Where are you? I am trying to get rid of my trading comouter.

Also Budget. Without knowing this any discussion is moot.

Stay away from future shop and BB.

Almost any stand alone video card can do two monitors nowadays.

Integrated video cannot do dual monitor. Go with AMD for extra cheapness. It'll do for trading.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I would go for Windows 7, not 8; I think Windows 8 would be too much of a shock in terms of the changes to the user interface, plus it's new and there are certain to be bugs. Windows 7 is closer to previous versions of Windows in terms of its look and feel. Windows 7 doesn't seem as stable as XP was, at least in my experience so far with two computers running Windows 7 that crash a few times per week compared with my XP machine that crashes about three times a year, but otherwise I'm pretty happy with Windows 7. Note that if you use Outlook or Outlook Express and want to migrate your email to the Windows 7 built-in mail client, you're out of luck -- there's no way to do an export/import without using third-party software. Nice thinking, Microsoft.

As for brands, I've had good luck with Lenovo, which also has the least amount of bloatware of any of the leading manufacturers I've tried. Dell is the worst for that, although the company I work for uses Dell and I've been running a Dell laptop for four years now with no problems; I'm very impressed. In general it's a good idea to immediately erase the hard drive of any new computer from Dell and reload the operating system without any of the add-on bloatware. Your computer will run faster and you won't get fifty annoying pop-ups every three minutes.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Stay away from Future Shop or Best Buy? Why? They don't make computers themselves. They sell brand name computers made by HP, Lenovo, Acer, etc.

I bought my current desktop online at BestBuy. Refurbished HP for $230 + taxes. Free delivery to the door. Nice case, very quiet, very good specs. It's been glitch free for a year.

Is power supply weak? Maybe, I don't know. This computer doesn't have a monster video card, so average power supply is perfectly adequate. The power supply is quiet - that's all I care about.

You will pay twice the price - at the very least - for the same components at a place like Canada Computers or any other small place.

For the record, I'm a senior software engineer. I can easily assemble my own computer with much better specs. But, I can't possibly beat $230.


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## Dibs (May 26, 2011)

GoldStone has good advice - you don't have to avoid FutureShop or BestBuy as long as you know what to look for. $230 for a decent PC is pretty rare though!

Dopple, from your post it looks like these are your key questions/requirements:


Two monitors
Light browsing / Youtube - No gaming / Video editing
What hardware should I look for
Windows 8 vs Windows 7
Budget

*Two monitors:
*To use two monitors, you need two outputs for monitors on your computer. These can come from either the motherboard, or the video card. You have to be careful, however, as not all motherboards or video cards have two outputs. Since I'm going to recommend you not get a video card, they will have to come from your motherboard. 

*Light browsing / Youtube - No gaming / Video editing*
For light browsing you don't need a discrete video card. This will save you some money. The integrated graphics on your CPU will do fine. 

*What hardware should I look for?*
This is a more complicated question, but here are some things to look out for: Two video outputs for your monitors, at least 4 GB ram, a decent CPU (see this article for a sense of what is good) and enough storage space.

*Windows 8 vs Windows 7*
There will also be a lot of user interface changes coming with Win8. I would recommend Windows 7 as a better choice for now, until we get a real look at windows 8. 

*Budget:*
$400 will get you a decent desktop that will do what you are looking for. A recent PC that I recommended to my friend was from dell here. This desktop is under $400, has two outputs for monitors (HDMI and VGA) and a good CPU for the price range. Note that each monitor will cost between $90-$150. If you do want a discrete video card, that will cost you at least $100 more for anything remotely good. 


Here are some useful links that I used when I built my computer:
http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/ - Very helpful forum for building PC and learning about all the components that make up a PC
http://pcpartpicker.com/ca/ - A useful website to help you plan your build and shop for the best prices among merchants in Canada.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Dibs said:


> [/B]To use two monitors, you need two outputs for monitors on your computer.


Unless of course you get a Mac ($600 for a Mac mini that effectively runs at 3.4 GiHz for processor-intensive applications) with Thunderbolt, in which case you can run up to six monitors from one monitor output. ;-)

You can run Windows natively (not in emulation) on a Mac, although I don't think Windows provides Thunderbolt support yet.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

what, all this hullaballoo just to see live quotes/news/data while looking at research websites ?

not necessary imho. What counts is what's in the head. I don't even use the detachable quote streamers the brokers give me, although they'd do the job DG says he wants to do.

i do a few trades a day, a few hundred a year, mostly option trades, everything on a plain laptop w windows 7, which i happen to dislike.

ask toronto.gal. I bet she doesn't have 2 screens ...


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## Dopplegangerr (Sep 3, 2011)

O humble, I just new there was going to be a comment like this from you  I know I dont need two monitors and it is a treat but that is exactly why I want it. Please let me have my fun. I dont spend much money on my self and I am just frugal to the bone but after using a 9 year old laptop with missing keys and a cracked screen I want something nice I can really enjoy. Chock it up to boys and there toys


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Dopplegangerr said:


> O humble, I just new there was going to be a comment like this from you  I know I dont need two monitors and it is a treat but that is exactly why I want it. Please let me have my fun. I dont spend much money on my self and I am just frugal to the bone but after using a 9 year old laptop with missing keys and a cracked screen I want something nice I can really enjoy. Chock it up to boys and there toys



ok boyz & toyz are different.

if i could send you my streamers i would. One is very pretty, the other from tdw is ugly as sin. Both useless imho ...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> Stay away from Future Shop or Best Buy? Why? They don't make computers themselves. They sell brand name computers made by HP, Lenovo, Acer, etc.
> 
> For the record, I'm a senior software engineer. I can easily assemble my own computer with much better specs. But, I can't possibly beat $230.


That's good! I hope as a senior software engineer you can remove some of the bloatware off that HP! I'm a programmer as well but that's mostly irrelevant to the thread or using OS such as Windows?... Anyone can build a computer nowadays it just depends if you want that hassle as I said. You can get a refurbished computer anywhere for a steal, but I agree open box deals and refurbished computers can be good deals. Let's not compare refurbished computers to custom made ones though

$230 computer is disposable so it just depends if you want to buy bloatware every few years or a good quality case with components that can easily be swapped/replaced as time goes on. HP computers can have cheap motherboard, integrated video, cheap bearings in fans and various other inconvenient ways to keep the price so low. It's true if the motherboard or PSU goes you can just go buy another $230 PC, but I would find that fairly inconvenient.

As far as FS/BB selling brand names... they often sell modified versions as I said. I know for fact some of their "brand name" receiver are modified with cheaper components and that many people complain about failing computers from there (and often don't get any help from the warranty they paid extra for) They don't kill off the small stores because they are less profitable. I never said they don't have good deals, I said prefer to stay away.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

I buy all my comps from Future Shop or Best Buy. No complaints here.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

I don't even have two monitors, these days I'm entering things from my phone. You could run ToS for visuals, it's completely free - news, charts, time & sales all fit on one screen. I've never had luck with sell side research they are usually late to the game so I pay no attention to that.


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## jason26 (Apr 6, 2009)

Going back to the original post.. I also suggest going to a local shop rather that FS/BB. Tell them you want to run 2 monitoris, ideally digitally and it will happen. I'm not a fan of running one screen off vga though, at least not 1920x1200 screens. Perhaps a smaller res. would be OK.

Something else to consider is one large 27" or 30" screen. I've been running 3x24" screens here for 4 years now and am thinking of revamping my setup to a single 27" or 30" - based on some software developers I know who've done the same and are happy with the change a year later..


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Price/performance of the components from FS and BB are usually bad. By that I am including the brand names they sell. The cheapos are just Russian roulettes. I give them 1year before the power supply goes out from a surge and blow out the 3.3v power regulator.

But if you have no knowledge of computer, I guess the only route is through brand names. The better suggestion is to have a geek friend (preferrably in the hardware or IT field) draft up a spec for you and then send it in to component shops like NCIX Canadacomputers, memoryexpress or newegg to be built.

Alternately, just buy a laptop. Most of them can do 2 monitors. For a cheapo overpowered version, buy two used laptop and have their mouse linked by a software.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I recommend BB/futureshop to people who need service. I usually buy from Canada Computers or various online retailers. My mother has anxiety about not having a 'place' to bring her computer if it breaks. My dad asked me to take a look at a computer he uses for work. It is a 9 year old hp desktop. It's still purring away. I don't think it's fair to say it's a throwaway computer.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I think the best buys are at the large big box stores. Look for specials or refurbs. Refurbs can be actual refurbs or new units repackaged/renamed for a special sales event. Forget the extended warranty....that is where the margin is. Don't buy any cables or software unless they are very well priced. Go to a component store like Memory Express. The $15. cable at Future Shop will be $3. at a component shop.

I would never buy a 'custom built' unit for general use. These new systems run hot. The major manufacturers understand heat dissipation, air flow, physics, fans. You run the risk of your system overheating if you buy a kluge system from the corner store. And once you get it home, make sure that you place it in a posiiton where the fan is not blocked....and dust the cabinet and fan openings regularly. And as my 
sister once found out,,,,,her custom system actually had an illegal copy of the O/S so watch for this is you insist on going this way.

Like others have said, get rid of all the extra software that comes with the system. We always buy Norton after Boxing Day-usually $25. for the three user internet security package. We don't bother going to the store-just get it on line from whereever.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> 1. what, all this hullaballoo..
> 2. i do a few trades a day, a few hundred a year...
> 3. ask toronto.gal. I bet she doesn't have 2 screens


1. Je pense qu'il a une lettre L supplémentaire. :biggrin: 
2. We sound like 1/2 twins, lol.

3. Pffftttttt, how come you know everything?! :rolleyes2:

I'm the least qualified to give advice here, but I agree that what I have + what broker provides is good enough [for my trading & other needs].

I'm with Marina, can't stand laptops as I'm too fast for them, though have to use them sometimes, but for home-use, nothing I like better than ONE 24'' monitor; it's all I need to succeed & have fun, too!

Have always bought all electronics from BB without any problems; well, a little one with a 3 year old t.v.

*Dopple:* using a '9 year old laptop with missing keys and a cracked screen' is not exactly what I would call frugal; hmmm, after 9 years, stingy maybe? :chuncky:

Get what will make u happy; like the L'Oréal commercial would say, 'I'm worth it'. :biggrin:


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## Dopplegangerr (Sep 3, 2011)

Haha Tgal yea I kinda promissed my self I would not buy a new comp till the one I use died on me completely, but it just keeps going and going! ASUS is a beast of a machine. 

Everyone else; thank you for all your advice, heaps to go threw. I will show a picture when I pick something out, might take me a bit of time to decide.


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## almira (Sep 5, 2012)

hey yes you can have pc which can have two or more monitors. buy a computer with i7 processor and with an Intel high end motherboard. and also buy a nVidia VGA card with two HDMI ports.


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## Homerhomer (Oct 18, 2010)

Two screens are great, wouldn't want to go back to single screen, I run multiple software or files all the time and find it very convinient, obviously it's for work, for trading half a screen would be more than enough.

Also for folks who hate laptops, I quite understand, I actually use my laptop like a pc for the most part, attach regular mouse and keyboard, but I can't live without portability so laptop is a must.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Monitors and cables are always much much better bang for the buck from an online store in Canada. So it's just a question of where to get the desktop computer.

If you can find a $200 refurbished/open-box deal that happens to support 2 monitors, go for it... This will depend on some luck of finding such deal, and some luck of not having any issues with it. Aren't those open box/refurbished deals usually sold "as is" NO WARRANTY? If so the idea of having a physical store to go back to is moot... besides the hassle of getting them to actually support their warranty and having a computer more likely to break/lose data in the first place. You can get a computer from Canada Computers or independent store with actual warranty support as well with a new legit copy of windows if you want. Give me any price and I could likely find a better bang for the buck deal outside of big box BB/FS with reasonable quality parts. A refurbished "as is" deal on a opened computer does not exactly compare to a computer build with hand chosen parts. Ready-made computers have parts chosen for cost-cutting reasons and sometimes parts known to be dubious reliability. Sure your computer from BB/FS may be fine but they chance of it failing is higher than hand chosen proven components.

HP computers of 9 years ago are not necessarily the same as HP computers built today. $230 HP computer is not necessarily the same as a $800 HP computer either. HP seems to have some of the worst rating everywhere I look of all brand name desktops for service support and reliability in recent years. HP has become more of mass produced consumer oriented electronics for the big boxes who like to use brand power. Just do a search of desktop PC reliability ratings from recent years


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> Aren't those open box/refurbished deals usually sold "as is" NO WARRANTY?


It depends on the manufacturer and seller. For example, all Apple refurbished products come with a full 1-year warranty. Most of them are products that were returned unopened or otherwise unused -- buying refurbished is usually a great way to go, although you lose the ability to order a custom-configured machine; you'd have to do that yourself after the fact.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> I buy all my comps from Future Shop or Best Buy. No complaints here.


And I forgot to knock on wood.

I cranked up my infrequently used PC (bought this year from BB or maybe FS) last night and I get a "disk reading error".

Any suggestions?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Is it a desktop? A quick Google tells me that your disk cable may have become unseated. If it's a desktop, open er up and make sure all the cables are nicely attached. If it's a laptop, you could try creating a recovery USB key from your 2nd computer, and boot up with that. Once booted, you should be able to run chkdsk and other utilities to try and troubleshoot the problem. 
http://en.kioskea.net/forum/affich-39197-disk-read-error-has-occurred-press-ctrl-al


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

It's a desktop. I will check the cables when I get the chance.

thanks


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

brad said:


> It depends on the manufacturer and seller. For example, all Apple refurbished products come with a full 1-year warranty. Most of them are products that were returned unopened or otherwise unused -- buying refurbished is usually a great way to go, although you lose the ability to order a custom-configured machine; you'd have to do that yourself after the fact.


The first computer I bought was actually a refurbished HP like 15 years ago and I had no issues with it (not counting the one my parents bought over 20 years ago). I've also bought lots of open box electronics and previous year models etc. I did consider open-box Macs and bought the previous model on clearance instead. After building my own computers though I know the difference between good components. Sometimes even higher spec components have poor reviews as a nature of the beast, so you can actually get more reliable parts for cheaper if you scan the reviews on newegg etc. The ready-made computers tend to be higher specs for the price, but lower reliability. I would not be worried to buy open box if the price was right though, especially if there was a full warranty.



Four Pillars said:


> And I forgot to knock on wood.
> 
> I cranked up my infrequently used PC (bought this year from BB or maybe FS) last night and I get a "disk reading error".
> 
> Any suggestions?


I always end up googling those issues because it could be so many things depending on your setup. Disk read error is fairly common problem. First check the cables didn't come loose from the HDD and try to restart a few times. Worst case might be you have to reformat or get a new HDD.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

The refurbished Macs available from Apple Canada's online store are great deals - 15-20% off in almost all cases for what amounts to a new machine with a full 1-year warranty. And they tell you the model year and month so you know what vintage it is. I don't know why anyone would buy any Apple product new unless they want it custom-configured at the factory or if the particular model they want is not available refurbished. See http://store.apple.com/ca/browse/home/specialdeals/mac.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I own my own marketing company and when i started about 8-9 years ago I was told i needed to get a good custom built system with only Intel ,Thunderbyte , Western Digital drives ,hell I even had a water cooled case with the fancy lights which cost about the same price as a computer back then.
Over the years I have learned what I need for my business needs and although we own several hundred websites which are on servers around the world for my own use I have a old HP w2207h moniter on my 4 year old HP system and I have a new HP all in one with a 23 inch monitor , I have made about 5 million on my old HP COMPUTER


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

marina628 said:


> I own my own marketing company and when i started about 8-9 years ago I was told i needed to get a good custom built system with only Intel ,Thunderbyte , Western Digital drives ,hell I even had a water cooled case with the fancy lights which cost about the same price as a computer back then.


I guess there is an in between just like anything else. Some people love their computers so much they spend obscene amounts on fancy water-cooled cases with neon lights or fall into marketing of over-priced latest-greatest brand name parts. Buying the best computer out there is never the best deal same as buying the cheapest HP can just end up as a disposable nightmare. In between the cheapest and full out gaming computers there can be a better bang for the buck. OP asked for a dual monitor setup, which is usually done with custom parts. I haven't seen HP selling dual monitor setups out of the box? There is no need for 2 monitors but there's no need for many things, you can probably buy 2 monitors online for the price of one in a store.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Yeah, people have made billions using computers that were less powerful than today's smartphones. Just go back and look at all the technology that was used during the 1980s and 90s. Even today people run entire companies on a mid-price laptop. Jason Fried runs 37signals.com (which has about 3.5 million customers) using an 11-inch MacBook Air. 

But that's not the point of this thread: if you want to run two monitors on a Windows box you have to get one configured to do it.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Pretty sure you can get HP workstation with dual monitors out of box, it only needs a display card with multiple outputs. It will probably have 1 dvi 1 hdmi or 1 dvi 1 displayport.

I switched from 20" SPVA to 24" IPS a few years ago and find 1920x1080 is more than I need. My laptop which I use 90% of the time is only 1280x800. If I did get another desktop monitor I would only consider displays with retina-like pixel density, 2560x1440. I would never buy two monitors, my desk doesn't even have space for it! Then I have to worry about changing furniture, next I'm buying Ergotron arms, it never ends... Keep it simple IMO.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

I added a custom video card to support dual monitors (DVI-connection) in my computer but then decided it was easier to go with two systems once i got the all in one and it took up same desk space.But it is a fairly simple process once you have correct hardware.I have not tried Lenovo yet but have to purchase a new laptop for one employee in next couple weeks so will read up a bit on them.


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> It's a desktop. I will check the cables when I get the chance.
> 
> thanks


If not cable, then your MBR is probably shot since BIOS bootup quick check is usually on that area and it is the only time where the OS cannot take over to recover. Most likely a shot HDD. Recovery of data is still possible. The famous "put in freezer within a plastic bag for 30 min and bootup" should work. If not, go to a recovery specialist if it's really important information. 

For me custom PC is always my first choice since I know exactly what spec is needed for any task most of the time. The current Linux servers I have running has its CPU ram and disk usage at around 80% all the time, so not much is wasted. Recently, I am increasing leaning towards a powerful mid level laptop for browsing and writing code while having the cloud do most of the work for me. This style allows me to call the world my workplace (mostly starbucks) since I can't focus as well when I am working out of a home office. But man... the powers at my fingertips for having my own servers is so addictive. Increasingly, I am also being show how having servers on the clouds fails big time during certain outages and are easier to hack.


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## mrbizi (Dec 19, 2009)

You won't regret switching to a dual monitor system....

If you cant find a desktop with a dual video output (or find them a bit too pricey), an alternative would be to buy an external video card that you can plug into a USB port like the one below:

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3921559&CatId=3667


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Ah, dual monitors - I was using those on Macs a couple of decades ago, when it wasn't even a glimmer in Windows' eye... 

@Doppelgangerr - You have laptops now, but said you were looking at a desktop - you don't need the portability any more? I would think most decent laptops would support a second monitor if you did get one. You should also come up with some sense of what size screens you want. You can probably buy a used monitor for the second screen if you don't want to spend a lot, especially if a laptop display is what you use as the primary.

If you go desktop, you should be able to drop in a cheap second video card into a PCI slot if it the stock card doesn't have dual outputs (I'd avoid the USB type solution mrbizi linked to unless you have no available PCI slot). Bottom line, concentrate on the computer you want, and then evaluate for dual screen issues.


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## sharbit (Apr 26, 2012)

IMO, computers are kind of commoditized now. There's so much excess processing power unless your playing games. I used to buy dell precisions but now I just have a regular HP desktop from futureshop.

I remember when compiling code used to take a long time, now I don't have to wait longer then a minute and database queries are instant unless the're poorly designed.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sharbit said:


> IMO, computers are kind of commoditized now. There's so much excess *processing power* unless your playing games. I used to buy dell precisions but now I just have a regular HP desktop from futureshop.
> 
> I remember when compiling code used to take a long time, now I don't have to wait longer then a minute and database queries are instant unless the're poorly designed.


Yea quad-cores or i7-whatever is mostly overkill, especially in a laptop imo. I read a test that they could barely find a measurable difference without overtasking the computer with things most would never do at once. If you read reviews though, there are HDDs with known reputations for failing etc. In my custom build, I could chose a few cheaper more reliable HDD in RAID vs one that burns more energy and spins louder/faster/hotter etc. The HDD is also the weakest link as far as speed. That's why new SSD make such a noticeable difference in desktop speed, whereas I could barely tell the difference between a dual core and i7 myself. For years anyways, AMD was the processor of choice for custom builds.. why pay more for Mach 5 when Mach 3 does the same thing for less. Just like cars, there's no point having a monster engine without monster tires and transmission and suspension etc etc besides bench racing or comparing HP numbers. Mac has proven specs are not the only factor imo.

After losing irreplaceable pictures on a failed backup HDD (tried the freezer method) while dealing with the hassle of a failed old laptop, I had some motivation to build a reliable desktop. Besides the HDD, the PSU is a common point of failure. The cables can be a point of weakness etc. FS computers were notorious for weak PSUs and components at least when I shopped and based on friend's experience. They have to cut costs somewhere to sell fancy looking desktops for $300, while keeping the specs comparable for the window shoppers. I've had friends ask me to fix their FS computers and sometimes they don't have standard replaceable parts, just not always as easy to work on or source parts. They'd rather you go back to them or throw it out to buy a new one!


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> After losing irreplaceable pictures on a failed backup HDD (tried the freezer method) while dealing with the hassle of a failed old laptop, I had some motivation to build a reliable desktop. Besides the HDD, the PSU is a common point of failure. The cables can be a point of weakness etc. FS computers were notorious for weak PSUs and components at least when I shopped and based on friend's experience. They have to cut costs somewhere to sell fancy looking desktops for $300, while keeping the specs comparable for the window shoppers. I've had friends ask me to fix their FS computers and sometimes they don't have standard replaceable parts, just not always as easy to work on or source parts. They'd rather you go back to them or throw it out to buy a new one!


Hard drive failures can be fairly random. I have a pair of Western Digitals that date back from 2000 or earlier that I still use and have never had any problems despite various Linux upgrades and moves. Nevertheless I ensure bqckups of things like pictures (external hard drive and DVDs).

Regarding the nonstandard power supplies and parts, it wouldn't be fair to blame FS for that. It's more about the brand name computer. So unless you purchase a custom built, there is always a chance of substandard parts.


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## steakman (Jul 22, 2012)

All I can say is that for one that started his working carreer using Word Star..(remember that one.?)..I have always been a PC guy (8086 was the first - DOS)...right up until for the umpeenth time , Windows froze/crashed..just when i really needed it. I pretty much came unglued and nearly hucked it out the 3rd story hotel room i was in.! I was Pissed.

As such I had had enough of Microsoft...so Cpl of weeks ago I sent Bill Gates a Dear John Letter explaing that our relationship was over as far as main board/OS was concerned and that was that - went out and bought a 15" Mac Book Pro. ZERO regrets. It still uses the intel chipset _and_ I bought MS Office Home-Small Business for Mac which by the way, runs a heck of lot nicer on the Mac than it ever did on a PC. 

Overal it takes a bit of getting used to but the fundamentals are all the same, took me a week to figure out one had to actually _turn on _the right click capability of the Apple Mouse I got with it.! But would I ever go back to owning a PC...??

never-_ever_. 

Granted its expensive but in my opinion well worth the spend. 
...go Mac..you WILL not regret your decision.

Solid Reliable Consistant performance.

Theo


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

steakman said:


> All I can say is that for one that started his working carreer using Word Star..(remember that one.?)..I have always been a PC guy (8086 was the first - DOS)...right up until for the umpeenth time , Windows froze/crashed..just when i really needed it. I pretty much came unglued and nearly hucked it out the 3rd story hotel room i was in.! I was Pissed.
> 
> As such I had had enough of Microsoft...so Cpl of weeks ago I sent Bill Gates a Dear John Letter explaing that our relationship was over as far as main board/OS was concerned and that was that - went out and bought a 15" Mac Book Pro. ZERO regrets. It still uses the intel chipset _and_ I bought MS Office Home-Small Business for Mac which by the way, runs a heck of lot nicer on the Mac than it ever did on a PC.
> 
> ...


Amen. +1 on this- I switched a few years back and find that my Macbook is actually far cheaper in the long run. My 'top of the line' Toshiba laptop of a few years ago required two new power supplies, a new battery, new DVD drive, and a new hard drive within four years. Plus all the security/anti-malware/defragging etc that need updating and maintenance, plus the great iLife package Mac includes (Garageband, iphoto, etc). I also much prefer the user experience with Mac. Well-built, fun, fast, clean and an intuitive, intelligent interface.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Toshibas have been junk for years.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

steakman said:


> Overal it takes a bit of getting used to but the fundamentals are all the same, took me a week to figure out one had to actually _turn on _the right click capability of the Apple Mouse I got with it.! But would I ever go back to owning a PC...??
> 
> never-_ever_.


You're using a mouse with a MacBook Pro? Force yourself to use the trackpad for a week and you will love it as well. Now that I know all the gestures, I hate using a PC the most for the lack of the quick smooth gestures. Two finger scroll and swipe back, close hand to see all apps, 3 finger swipe to desktop etc AND 2 finger click anywhere for right-click works great for me. I even use it for basic photo editing but the mouse would be better for things like that.

Toshiba and Compaq used to be top notch laptops until the big boxes exploited their brand power imo. Now I would only buy Lenovo, Asus, Mac for laptop. My last Sony laptop was quite disappointing but they still had (maybe have) good reviews.


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## Dopplegangerr (Sep 3, 2011)

I am looking at a Dell right now, the guy at the store is trying to push me into it. But I had always thought Dell was crap, but I have never owned one myself. Am I just being unjust towards them?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Dell is hit and miss. My previous laptop was a Dell and served me well for 5 years, no hardware problems. It was mid range. I'd caution against getting the very low end models. I upgraded earlier this year to an Asus notebook.

If you have a particular model you're looking at, look at a review or two and see if the reviewers' gripes are meaningful to you.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Yeah, I've been using a Dell mid-range laptop for four years now with no complaints other than bizarre behavior with the USB ports (four of them, only one works most of the time and the others when they do work show up as USB 1.0 even though they are 2.0). But that could be Windows flakiness, rather than a hardware problem. The company I work for runs almost entirely on Dell, we have about 8,000 machines.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

That is odd, brad. Could it be a driver issue?


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## dave2012 (Feb 17, 2012)

steakman said:


> All I can say is that for one that started his working carreer using Word Star..(remember that one.?)..I have always been a PC guy (8086 was the first - DOS)...right up until for the umpeenth time , Windows froze/crashed..just when i really needed it. I pretty much came unglued and nearly hucked it out the 3rd story hotel room i was in.! I was Pissed.
> 
> As such I had had enough of Microsoft...so Cpl of weeks ago I sent Bill Gates a Dear John Letter explaing that our relationship was over as far as main board/OS was concerned and that was that - went out and bought a 15" Mac Book Pro. ZERO regrets. It still uses the intel chipset _and_ I bought MS Office Home-Small Business for Mac which by the way, runs a heck of lot nicer on the Mac than it ever did on a PC.
> 
> ...


Pretty much the way it went for our office after 25 years of MS.

Actually you will find in the long run you save a ton Mac vs Microsoft. I used to have to replace one of several machines every two years just to keep the machines useable. With all the extra bugs and bloatware MS kept adding to patch up their OS, and deal with endless security issues, each PC would slowly, but shurly slow down to a crawl over time so we'd have to throw some new faster hardware at the problem to keep the computers useable.

Back in 2008 we tossed out all the Dells/MS boxes and went MacPro/iMac/Macbook. Did cost more for the new hardware, but all the Macs are running like the day they were bought 4 years ago without all the maintenance time. Should easily get another 2 years out of each. Nice not having to rebuy the OS and 'Office' product each time we rebought a new Dell as well, nor have to worry about the endless bloatware that comes pre-installed.

At the end of the day we cut our computer hardware/software costs down a good 30%. Probably the most savings however is in time which equates to a LOT more in $$$'s. I personally had to devote significant time fixing/debugging/re-installing/scratching my head over endless issues back in our PC days.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Most companies have a standard image they use for their standard issue machines, no bloatware (aside from what IT wants).


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I've had good luck with Dells. My husband is still using my 3 year old Dell and I upgraded my own about a year ago, and so far so good. When we did have an issue their customer service was amazing.

Where are you buying a dell from a store, though? Check their website to make sure the store is giving you a good deal.


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

I've bought the Dell business line of laptops and had no complaints. The batteries don't do well if left plugged in constantly (I use a docking station instead of a desktop), but few will.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

dave2012 said:


> Pretty much the way it went for our office after 25 years of MS.
> 
> Actually you will find in the long run you save a ton Mac vs Microsoft. I used to have to replace one of several machines every two years just to keep the machines useable. With all the extra bugs and bloatware MS kept adding to patch up their OS, and deal with endless security issues, each PC would slowly, but shurly slow down to a crawl over time so we'd have to throw some new faster hardware at the problem to keep the computers useable.
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I'm not sure about the Mac vs. Microsoft comparisons. My current Mac, a 2008 MacBook Pro, is the only one of the many Macs I've owned since 1987 that didn't either come with a significant hardware problem or develop one within the first year. Apple has long had QA problems, although it may be that they've gotten their act together on that in the last few years. Still, though on principle I never purchase extended warrantees for any product, I make an exception for Apple: I buy AppleCare.

In the old days of Windows I definitely experienced the slowdown over time, but I've been running XP on two machines for 4 years now and neither one has slowed significantly. I've found Windows 7 to be much less stable than XP, but maybe that's just my bad luck. 

In the early days of Windows there was a definite total cost of ownership advantage to the Mac: usability-wise it was years ahead of Microsoft and productivity studies showed the Mac coming out ahead. Today, though, I don't think the differences are that great. There are people who consider Windows a toy and say if you want to get serious work done you need a Mac, and there are people who say just the opposite. The reality is that both of them are professional, mature operating systems that can handle just about anything you need to do. There's more software available for Windows (there are a few programs I use that aren't available on the Mac platform), but there are excellent programs that are Mac-only as well so it really depends on your needs. I use both Mac and Windows every day and each of them has its strengths. I use Windows at work and appreciate the relatively seamless compatibility with my coworkers, and the way Exchange works so well with Outlook, Communicator, Sharepoint, and my Office programs. I use my Mac to manage all my music and photography, my finances (don't want my finances on a platform as vulnerable as Windows), and my personal life.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Unfortuneately one needs to wipe their PCs harddrive after about the 3rd year and then about once a year after that or it will slow to a crawl. This is time consuming but if done, the computer perks up quite significantly. As for the time to wipe and reload software. It really isn't that much more time then it is to shop, buy and load up a new computer. It will give you another 3 years on top of the 1st 3 years you get from a PC running windows.


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## praire_guy (Sep 8, 2011)

I used to build my own computers with well researched components. Always cutting edge, but windows xp (last ms os I used) did require a re instal every 6 months to a year. 

5 years ago I bought a Mac pro. (had to because software I needed was Mac only). Never looked back. No problems, slowdowns, flakiness. 

Mother in laws laptop is windows 7. Same garbage as xt. Don't know how ms is still in business. 

What do ms servers run on? Linux. They don't even run their own software on their servers. Too flakey. 

As for apple quality control, never had an issue with any of their products, from my Mac pro, iPhones, iPad, apple tv, iPods, etc. 

They even exchanged my 6 year old iPod due to a defective battery.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

praire_guy said:


> I used to build my own computers with well researched components. Always cutting edge, but windows xp (last ms os I used) did require a re instal every 6 months to a year.


Yes, I agree with you fully. I have two (bought used) PC desktops. They are cheap to buy, even new,
but Windows 7 is not as good as XP, IMHO. I made the mistake this year of spending $129 to buy authentic Windows 7
Home Premium software to upgrade my PC from XP... and I am sorry now that I did. What a waste of money!
It is worse than XP in some things..and runs slower than XP. 



> 5 years ago I bought a Mac pro. (had to because software I needed was Mac only). Never looked back. No problems, slowdowns, flakiness.


I looked at the Mac Pro in the store. Love it, but I don't like the feel of the keyboard..(too small for my fingers) and the price is more right
now than I can afford to spend, but the Macs are the way to go.



> Mother in laws laptop is windows 7.* Same garbage as xt.* Don't know how ms is still in business.


Was that a typo..you meant XP maybe? I installed my own Windows OS on my computers. 
I bought the OEM System Builder Pack CD and thought that it came with everything I needed
( This was this was the Windows 7 Home Premium edition, btw. )What a lot of hassle to install the add-ons!
The Microsoft website to download some of the necessary apps for the bare bones Windows 7 OS
is a frustrating to use. Definitely not user friendly and frustrating to find the apps you are looking for
in some cases and have cryptic names, like these KB954430 etc, packages and .Net Framework 4 etc..

As a user, I haven't a clue what MS app packages my computer needs, Ican't afford to take it a PC specialist, 
so I do it myself and it takes a few long frustrating hours to find the apps that I really need from all the
"garbage" theyhave in their download website. MicroSoft has gotten too big, and their s/w is complicated now.

*Windows Vista was a costly experiment for MS* Most users that bought Vista had to go back to XP. 
Their later release after Vista ( Windows 7) in some ways is better than XP but runs much slower..(IMHO) than XP. 

I feel that if I pay over a $100 for a licensed version of their Windows 7 software, all the necessary apps required by that type of OS 
(ie: Windows 7 Home Edition ) should be on the same CD...and not necessary to search for all the additional crap required on their
download website. It takes a few hours to download or install all the other applications I use, after Windows 7 install, so the last
thing I want to do to add to this already FRUSTRATING EXPERIENCE is to browse and flip around from one place to another in their
download website..searching for what I need and trying to understand the confusing description....of the various service packs
or whatever I need. 

If they can't provide the actual app s/w on the Windows 7 CD that I bought for $129, they should at least given me a recommended
list of ones I should have! It was a very frustrating experience for me..and I am familiar with PCs and computer s/w to a certain degree. 



> What do ms servers run on? Linux. They don't even run their own software on their servers. Too flakey.


No, the MS OS is even older than Linux..I believe. 

It's based on " MS-DOS, and goes* way back to the days of the first Intel 286 processor*. 
The newer versions of Windows have been rewritten over the years, of course to run on the later processors, with more add-ons and more memory, but it's still MS-DOS
in the heart of the WINDOWS OS. ..and you can still get into MS-DOS (very basic commands) if you know how.

here is a Wiki link to the evolution over the years..if you care to read it..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_windows


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Windows 7 is just fine. It is definitely more resource intensive than XP, but it was released a decade later.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Windows 7 is just fine. *It is definitely more resource intensive than XP*, but it was released a decade later.


Yes, and on older processors (Pentium 4 and such) it seems to run very slow.
One of my HP media center consoles is a Pentium 4, with only 2GB of DDR2 and 32 bit OS, so it is definitely a lot slower running Windows 7 than it was with XP. 
I keep it as a spare in case my other one I'm using now develops a problem. I'm disabled now and don't have a vehicle anymore to take these old
relics to a repair shop.
My other one is a used brandX" desktop with a dual processor AMD (Athalon?) running 64 bit with 3GB of DDR3, so Windows 7 seems to run a bit faster on it.


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## Dopplegangerr (Sep 3, 2011)

So everyone reckons its fine to just go for Win7 and not bother waiting for Win8? The computer I am looking at is a Intel 7, I have to say I pretty excited. Come on pay day get here already!


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Dopplegangerr said:


> So everyone reckons its fine to just go for Win7 and not bother waiting for Win8?


What if Win8 turns out to be another Vista? It's been getting decent reviews, but until it's out in the real world you won't really know for sure. Win 7 has been around for a while and many of the initial bugs have been fixed in updates. Plus the user interface in Win8 is radically different from what you're used to. Why punish yourself with an extra learning curve if you don't have to?


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## Dibs (May 26, 2011)

Go for Win 7. Also, what are the specs and price of the computer that you want to buy?


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Another vote for Win7. Most of your computing experience will be on the web anyway. Browser matters a lot more than OS. All you need from the OS is to be rock solid stable. Win7 will give you that. Win8? Who knows?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

I think that MS learned a valuable lesson with Vista which backfired on them because when it was released, 
most users had all kinds of problems with it and MS was slow to fix them. 
Win 7 is an improvement over Vista and if you register with them and setup automatic updates, you will get them.

There is a Win7 version called ULTIMATE, which has more in it that Win 7 Home edition.
The Kijiji re-seller that I bought this used desktop from, installed it, but never warned me when he delivered the it
to my place, that MS would discover that it is not a genuine licensed version within the month and this was just a
trial copy to make sure that the motherboard worked. MS started to nag after 30 days, each time I repowered
it or went through a restart and they blacked out my screen background image (icons I use are still there though). 

When I called him and sent emails..at first he told me he would send me a "fix" by email, but he never did, 
and subsequent emails and phone calls to his voice mail went unanswered, so I concluded he was a 
"shyster" out there to make a fast buck! The desktop works, but now I have to go through a complete install 
from scratch for Win 7 Home Premium. 

The MS sticker on the case with the MS product key is for Win XP and that is no good. 
When I tried to submit my product key for Win 7 Home Premium...it came back and told me that that key
is for the wrong product, so they are pretty smart. 

Now it constantly blacks out my screen background and keeps giving me warning popups that the Win 7 Ultimate version 
on my computer isn't genuine..and of course, they can make it "genuine"...for the cost of $199 US on my credit card. 

I'm not going to spend another $199 on this cr*p, as I already recently bought Win 7 Home Premium,
which I can re-install with the proper license key, but it's a lot of hassles and downloading of applications all over again.

I certainly plan to do that when my current version of other other licensed softare (such as Norton 360 and PC Tuneup expire.

At that point I will go back to my own licensed version..but in the meantime, I'll put up with the MS warning popups.

*Lesson learned..never buy a used computer from a Kijji computer "reseller". *

To sell these used desktops at the low prices they are advertising (with no tax),they just pirate one licensed version into
all the desktops they offer for sale to unsuspecting buyers. 
MS allows 30 days and then they start to nag you to buy the official licensed version..and you don't get any updates either,
until you do. Thankfully I have a spare HP desktop that is loaded with my own licenced version of Win 7 Home Premium.

The reason I went to Kijji in the first place is that I had some difficulty with WIND data stick antenna which plugs into
the USB port on the back of my HP desktop, and I needed a second desktop to troubleshoot the internet dropout issue, 
so at the time, I didn't want to go to Staples and spend $400 on a new desktop.

I bought a used one for $150 from this Kijji resellerm he delivered it to my door, because I am disabled, can't drive,
and have no vehicle anymore...but maybe after the hassles from MS, I should have spent more money, 
bought a new one at Staples with licensed s/w installed...live and learn.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Windows 8 is essentially Windows 7 with the start menu replaced with a phone OS. I've seen some demos and I'm not too impressed with it. Windows 7 will serve most average users well--don't fret about not getting 8.


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## Dopplegangerr (Sep 3, 2011)

Okay good one, thanks everyone.

Carverman that sounds pretty rough. Sorry to hear.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Dopplegangerr said:


> Carverman that sounds pretty rough. Sorry to hear.


What my myositis muscle inflammation (losing my ablity to walk)? or the "computer deal" on Kijji?

At this point in my life, the computer s/w copy is the least of my worries.:biggrin:

I live alone and getting around to do my daily routines + shopping for groceries is more of challenge and concern. Winter will be even worse for
my mobility. I have a wheelchair and a scooter, but I'm prolonging resigning myself to the wheelchair..trying to keep my leg muscles still exercised
in spite of the pain. :distress:

Ok, so I learned a lot about buying used computers online for next time..it won't happen again. Had the guy told me, I would have reloaded right
away with my licensed version that I bought..but he didn't and unfortunately before I bought it, I used the "Up to 4 computers" allowed on some applications for my friend's two computers that I worked on to fix some corruption issues...and two of my own...
my HP desktop and now this "BrandX" one. 

If I re-install now..I will be forced to buy another Norton 360 licence. I have until March 2013 on my current Norton licence
but because of the "Up to 4 computers" rule, I have used up some of my licensed application options..well..for now. 

Compared to the tens of thousands I spent on divorce lawyers and divorce from 1994 to 2003...the few dollars I spent on a used
computer is insignificant. It still works ok, and I can fix the MS s/w..I just don't want to do it right now..
because it will be another few hours stuck at the keyboard during the night, having to download all sorts of applications after Win 7 home premium is installed in from the CD. (Have to start "clean". Right with the fall sunshine and cooler weather, I'd
rather sit outside and soak up the sun and carve in my back yard. 

I'll do the re-install in Novemember, when the weather turns wet, dreary and slushy.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Carver, look into some free antivirus software. Check out AVG. It's not really necessary to spend money on antivirus.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Carver, look into some free antivirus software. Check out AVG. It's not really necessary to spend money on antivirus.


Thanks Andrew. This used "refurb" did come with AVG freebee and (to my chagrin),* a copy of Win 7 Ultimate *when he delivered it.

I have used Norton 360 over the last few years, because it offers a lot of additional features, (internet file cleanup, backup),
since I do my banking on line, it also lets me know if there are any tracking cookies or snoopers as well as warning me of any unsafe sites, while internet browsing + the firewall. 

After about 5 years of using it, I trust it. It also tells me I am protected on all counts, which gives me that "warm feeling,
eases my peace of mind. 

I usually get it at Staples when it goes on sale a couple times a year... (about $49.95 or $20 off the Norton online price).

This yearly licence allows for 365 days of protection and up to 4 computer applications. 
However this year due to a motherboard failure of my first PC and also installing it in my HP replacement (backup PC),
and my friends two PCs that he brought to me to troubleshoot (when they wouldn't come up in Windows XP),
and now this new PC..I have now used up all 4 allowed applications allowed by Norton under the current licence
which is still good until March 2013. 

Question for CMF'ers:

Does AVG have?
PC Security, Identity protection, Backup, and PC Tuneup built in? I don't believe it does..so you get what you pay for.

The other thing I like about Norton 360 Premium Edition V6 is that you can request virus definition updates at any time and it will also
do virus updates for you, if you forget.

Dan 


When I bought the second used one


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Norton is way too much of a resource hog imo. There are free anti-virus and all that extra stuff that Norton does is covered by other programs and even Windows 7 does them now itself. It's worth sticking with what works for you I guess, I've always paid for ESET and it runs very light and non-intrusively. For the same reason I don't run Adobe Reader... Free PDF readers read PDFs just fine without bi-weekly updates and constant restarts!!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> *Norton is way too much of a resource hog imo.* There are free anti-virus and all that extra stuff that Norton does is covered by other programs and even Windows 7 does them now itself. It's worth sticking with what works for you I guess, I've always paid for ESET and it runs very light and non-intrusively. For the same reason I don't run Adobe Reader... Free PDF readers read PDFs just fine without bi-weekly updates and constant restarts!!


Yes, you have a point. Sometimes my computer runs very slow, but I'm not sure it is because of Norton.
I get a few of these "foggy whiteouts" where Win 7 gives me a *3 choices, find a solution, kill the program running or wait for it to respond.* But it seem to be related to Skype which is a real resource hog. 

I hate paying and paying (Norton yearly licence) , but I've used it for about 5 years now and it gives me peace of mind.

Yes you are right about some of the applications coming up with popups that an update is available. 

Those are now added to the "Nag" list, I ignore them. 

I bought a licence for CA PCTuneup and everytime I run it, it finds "problems", then tells me it has corrected them, and rescan and restart..what a colossal waste of money and time! Once the licence expires, I'm never going to use it again. 
Same with Driver Manager..another licenced application that goes out and finds drivers for all the devices in your computer..or NOT.

Well, I guess I asked for it. 

I got a used HP desktop for nothing and it had a lot of hardware on it that I wasn't familiar with and since I wanted to
get it going as quickly as possible after I installed Win 7 Home Premium..I didn't want to be bothered trying to figure out what the hardware was that came with the HP media center desktop, 
So... I went online and found the Driver Manager..that would run and identify all the devices that needed drivers, but in order
to get these drivers downloaded by it, you had to pull out your credit card and buy a licence to activate it. 
Seems to be a lot of these application shenanigans going on these days!

*In retrospect, it probably would have been as cheap to go out and get a new Desktop with Win 7 already installed and legal*..but by doing it the hard way with a "free HP Desktop computer", I learned a lot more about PCs than before,
because I had to learn to troubleshoot it myself at home. Learning doesn't come cheap these days either. 

Free apps: Adobe Reader X
Skype
QuickTime Player
Irfanview (picture file editor)
Fuji FinePix (Came as a CD with the Fujifilm digital camera0

Apps I had to buy a licence (or CD) to install:

- Norton 360 Premier edition ($49.95 for one year, on sale at Staples (with tax $56)
- Microsoft Works (crappy file editor with templates) $20.00 at Staples (one time purchase),
but it has a bug that Microsoft wont fix for me, so I use it as a file editor. 
- Driver Manager (partnered with Norton) $39.95 licence expires Dec 2014
- CA PCTuneup (by Total Defence) $49.95 (CD with tax $56) Expires Feb 2013

So I guess all these apps to help me fix hardware and s/w problems, but cost me about $140 this year.
On top of that Win 7 Home Premium cost me $129 + tax ($146.84)

On top of all that, I bought a spare 160gb hard disk on line...$89 tax (which I haven't used so far) 
and $150 for a second computer to help troubleshoot my WIND data stick problem that kept dropping the
connections on me earlier.

So this year, my 2 PC(s) has cost me a LOT...about $400 for the experience of tearing into the hardware and installing s/w and all the applications..

For all that there is Mastercard...experience gained in troubleshooting (and frustration,those long sleepless hours downloading-restarting-downloading-restarting..etc...) Priceless!


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

One of the reasons I prefer Apple is demonstrated in the above re-install/tuneup/antivir/tearing into the hardware etc discussion. In the three years since I switched to a Macbook Pro, I have had exactly zero issues with anything and it performs as flawlessly as when new. Cheaper in the long run by far, and no time wasted.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

It's true that you can get by without anti-virus software for the Mac (I've never used anti-virus on any of my Macs since the late 1980s), but that won't be true for long. More and more malware is being written for the Apple platform as it takes up a larger share of the PC market.

I'm also not convinced the Mac platform is cheaper in the long run: Macs are mostly premium machines, and while they're not priced significantly higher than Windows machines with identical specs (and in some cases when I've done comparisons the Mac is cheaper), you can get a perfectly adequate Windows machine for a lot less money. Given that there are free antivirus programs available and Windows 7 is a lot more secure than previous versions of Windows, it doesn't really cost more to run Windows than Mac OS. 

The one area where I think the Mac clearly outshines Windows is stability. I've been running OSX since version 10.1 was released in September 2001 and the operating system has crashed exactly twice during those 11 years. Windows XP crashes on my PC once every few months, and Windows 7 crashes several times per month (sometimes several times per week). And I'm talking about serious crashes, where control-alt-delete has no effect and you have to power off the machine and turn it back on. Windows 2000 was the most stable version I can remember; I could go for a few years without a crash. But those crashes are merely annoyances; they don't cause any lasting problems and they require maybe 5 minutes of waiting while the machine reboots and you get back to what you were doing.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i don't belong in this erudite group at all since i'm not in love with IP machines & i detest their problems ... i have windows 7 & i truly miss XP but getting it back would not work for me ...

re anti-virus, there is a retired math schoolteacher in my area who repairs home computers at the home. He regularly visits - no i am not making a dirty remark - he regularly visits all the ladies in my neighbourhood except me, because i have a longterm dell contract which works for me.

schoolteacher (ret.) is crazy about free Avast as an anti-virus. All my neighbourhood friends are therefore are running Avast. No problems. Apparently it is very light in the memory. I also hear praise from other people. I've never heard any complaints about Avast. It's supposed to be better than free AVG, which itself is supposed to be less protective than paid AVG.

i can't run Avast because broker says they sometimes have noticeable connection problems when clients use this anti-virus. But folks who don't trade heavily could perhaps consider Avast.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

I run free Microsoft anti-virus on all of our home PCs. It's called Microsoft Security Essentials. For what it's worth, CNET editors rate it "spectacular".

http://download.cnet.com/Microsoft-Security-Essentials-64-bit/3000-2239_4-12530959.html

I don't know if it's spectacular or not. I hardly ever notice it. Which is exactly what I want from the anti-virus.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Since going to Windows 7, I just use Windows Security Manager (I think that's what they call it) that came with it. It's got built-in anti-virus and firewall. Light, easy, no issues so far.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

GoldStone said:


> I run free Microsoft anti-virus on all of our home PCs. It's called Microsoft Security Essentials. For what it's worth, CNET editors rate it "spectacular".


Thanks, I bookmarked the site. I'll try it once my Norton 360 licence runs out next March. 
This year has been a really expensive year for me as far as PCs.


My original PC failed to power up (motherboard problem, not power supply), last Christmas morning, 
just as I was ready to Skype with my daughter in AZ.
Bad timing on Christmas day, but my friend brought me over his "freebie" HP desktop to get me going again.
It took me a while to install XP and all the applications, I usually run on my PC.

Everything was working ok, until I decided to migrate to Win 7 on the HP. 
Not only the hassles of re-installing all the applications, but Norton has a counter on the number of installs.
3 is the maximum and this is very annoying, and a lucrative money grab on Norton's part, 
since they want you to buy a $69.95 (online) additional licence for any PC installs after the maximum 3 allowed.

My Norton installs in 2012 went like this:
Previous Norton 360 expired last Sept 2011. 
Ok, got tired of their daily "countdown nag" 
ie: *10 days remaining to buy a new licence..If you don't you will have NO Protection after expiry date.*

Bought new Norton 360 CD at Staples (on sale): Licenced for 3 installs maximum. 

# 1 install Sept 2011 Old PC (that died) ran on XP. 
I don't know what happened to install #2 and #3, but I did some windows re-installs work on my friends PC and Laptop, 
and used my Norton key to install and activate Norton on his two computers, so that probably used up install #2 and #3.)

Bought a new Norton 360 Premier Edition at Staples ($49.95 + tax on sale..for "next year")

Install #1 (Friend wanted to try out Windows 7 on his PC).
Install #2 Decided to migrate my HP from XP to Win 7 Home Premium (this is now my spare PC)

Had some problems with WIND internet dropouts..thought it was the actual computer h/w
..bought a used "brand X" 64bit on Ottawa Kijji with AVG and Win 7 Ultimate loaded

Decided to install my Norton 360 which told me it was going to remove AVG as there can't be two anti-virus on my computer.

Install #3 on new used "brandx" running a copy of Win 7 Ultimate (beginning of August)...
30 days pass...MS starts to nag me daily and on restarts that my copy of Win 7 Ultimate is not "genuine" , 
and I should buy a licence from them *at $199.*.ya right!!!

Dilema..because my Norton 360 current subscription only allows 3 installs max, 
I can't re- install my licenced copy of Win 7 Home Premium on this "brandx" until next March,
when my current licence with Norton 360 expires.

next time I will try either:
AVAST
Microsoft Security Essentials
or even AVG.

I've had it with paying Norton over and over again. Yes they are good, but they are expensive!


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## Dibs (May 26, 2011)

I use Microsoft Security Essentials as well. I never notice it and my computer stays clean. I have tried AVAST, and it was also fine.


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