# Ok which one of you is this?



## Sherlock

*Ottawa's cheapest dad: Abusive man convicted of criminal harassment after depriving family of heat, water and food*

An abusive Ottawa father who ruled his home's finances with a frugality so extreme that he deprived his family of heat, lights, water and sometimes food, has been convicted in a rare criminal harassment and assault case.

A recent court ruling lays out the facts of the case, and details the lengths the man went to to save money.

Court was told his wife feared for her life, and that the children had to sneak showers when their abusive father wasn't home. Their 52-year-old father would only allow each child to use two litres of water, measured by a container in the shower. One litre for washing, one litre for rinsing.

He was so cheap his family testified he'd replace the few light bulbs they had with 40-watt bulbs to keep the hydro bill down. But he wouldn't budge on the heat. They stopped asking him for permission to turn up the heat years ago. He'd tell them to layer up. 

“We froze in the dark,” his wife testified at an Ontario Superior Court trial presided by Justice Charles Hackland.

Though his children ranged in age from 12 to 22, they all had the same bedtime. It was always lights out right after supper, when some of the older boys complained there wasn't enough on their plate.

He biked to work and his wife biked to the grocery store. Because they had five kids, it meant she had to bike to the grocery store almost every day because there were only so many bags she could lug at one time.

Rest of the article: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Ottawa...ing+family+heat+water+food/9413581/story.html


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## hystat

Depriving a family of food is the whole story as far as I'm concerned. 
The rest (probably 75%) of that story probably resembles how most of us were raised. 

_"Her husband didn’t want to buy a car because he wanted to save for a home"_
uh...geez... death penalty?

_“We froze in the dark,” his wife testified_
The whole case shoulda been tossed right there. A human cannot survive being frozen.


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## donald

That's f*ck.
I can see though someone getting like this though!
obviously that is not right what happened here but i would bet 100% this man is a victim of circumstance and couldn't help it.
He was without a doubt abused like this when younger.

I find i do somethings(not abusing anyone of course)that bothers me to save money,it's like frugal/investing/accumulate has a hold on me and i got to remember not to slip into unhealthy choices.(a lot of it stems from a unpredictable/unstable somewhat past and present actually,up and down income/self employment)


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## andrewf

I think we're dealing with mental illness here... it's documented on shows like Extreme Cheapskate on TLC. Not to blame the victim, but why did the Mrs allow the children to be subjected to these conditions? Not properly feeding kids is definitely a deal breaker.


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## indexxx

A few years ago, I did a house-sitting gig for this crazy, cheap-*** woman in Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia for three months during the winter. She told me to keep the thermostat at 13 degrees, and to feed her large dogs (a collie and an AMAZINGLY intelligent Rottweiller that I fell in love with) 3/4 cup of dry food each day- nothing more, no wet food or treats. Needless to say, as soon as she was out of sight I cranked the heat and bought huge cans of dog food and chewy treats for my buddies out of my own pocket.

She was too cheap to own a car despite living way out in the sticks, and her downstairs tenant once drove her to town to go the store, stopping for gas along the way, which the tenant paid for, getting 17 cents in a coupon at Superstore for gassing up. Crazy skinflint beeeyatch asked for the 17 cents because' it was her trip to the store'- despite the fact the the tenant paid for the gas and used their own car, and took the time to drive her. 

Also on the night I arrived, I had just flown from Vancouver and spent 13 hours travelling, arriving at her place at 1:30 am and she didn't offer me anything when I arrived- no food or drink. No breakfast next morning either. Oh, and I had to pay for the cab from the airport to her place ($40 from Halifax Regional). Then I find out she was going to housesit for someone else, for which she was getting paid. (I did it for her for free, as I was moving to Halifax at the time and needed the place to transition)

Cheapness is one of my most hated human traits.


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## brad

It was a little like that for me growing up: my father retired at 55, when I was 17, and in the years leading up to his retirement and then following it, my stepmother decided that we had to be ultra-frugal in order to make ends meet on his pension--even though at the time he was making the equivalent of a $200K salary in today's dollars. She rationed my food (counting the number of slices of bread I took from the loaf each day), kept the heat at 15 during the day and 11 at night, and turned down the water heater so we could only get a lukewarm shower (and she made me take "Navy showers" anyway, which meant I was allowed 2 minutes and no longer in the shower; this was fine with me since there was no hot water). Going away to university was a big relief for me, although I had to deal with all of that stuff again whenever I went home for the holidays.


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## underemployedactor

Maybe he didn't notice that it's colder in Ottawa than in Sana'a...


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## CanadianCapitalist

I sure hope none of us are like this. Thrift is good. This example is just sick.


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## Nemo2

underemployedactor said:


> Maybe he didn't notice that it's colder in Ottawa than in Sana'a...


He had his Qat to keep him warm.


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## andrewf

Realistically, this guy would never have been willing to spring for internet service.


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## Ponderling

I'm only half that crazy. 

In years past, when my wife was home when kids were pre-school, I would ask that she try to make one day of the week a big consolidated trip, in her own car that I bought her, and using the gas that I put in it.
i.e. the trip across town (100km round trip is across town in the GTA) to visit her elererly parents for an afternoon, the trip to the liquidator to see what deals they had on offer, and also any needed mid week grocery shopping. Any thrifts along the way, if she wanted to scope for next season's clothes for the kids. 

We would work together on the weekend to cook from scratch most of our meals, to avoid most packaged convenience foods and take out meals, which dent the food budget a lot faster for less stuff in the big picture. 

Prior to replacing the windows with more energy efficient ones, we would install rigid foam insulating panels in the upper half of the bedroom and front rooms windows, and in half of the patio sliding door to cut the rate of heat loss.

I may be frugal, but the guy discussed in this story sounds mentally ill, or as a survivor of a severe up bringing.


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## thebomb

That was awfully nice of you to put gas in her car  or I guess your car


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## carverman

Why does this story reek of "middle eastern control freak father" family?
The story says that the father slept on a matt on the floor...very much a middle eastern trait. 
Other traits like severe disciplinary action of the boys, wife being afraid for her life, cutting back on food to buy a $210K townhouse for CASH! 
...while working at a job that paid $90K a year.


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## carverman

thebomb said:


> That was awfully nice of you to put gas in her car  or I guess your car


Well he did say he bought the car for the wife, a second car and out of his own pocket too, and put gas in it , out of his own pocket as the wife was at home with the preschool kids, so she wasn't earning any income to help out. This may have triggered that it was necessary to exercise his frugal ways.


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## Ponderling

carverman said:


> Well he did say he bought the car for the wife, a second car and out of his own pocket too, and put gas in it , out of his own pocket as the wife was at home with the preschool kids, so she wasn't earning any income to help out. This may have triggered that it was necessary to exercise his frugal ways.


I'm not trying to be a smart *** here. The original post is quite shocking, particualrly in Canada where we like to think that there are social support systems for people in need in the community. I infer, as others have, that there is likely a language/recent imigrant scenario as a sub text here.

Oh, the bit about car for wife, while kids were young. Not trying to be snappy here either. We picked a house close to my office when returning to Canada from an oversaes posting. That put the house in the middle of suburbia, and so really, unless you have gobs of time to spend waiting for the bus (which actually runs right past my front door) you need a car to get kids off to doctors, swimming, etc. 

The house is close to my office, so I don't have to leave megga early, or get home late from a long commute. When one of the cars is cranky, or I have time in my schedule I walk or bike to get around, mostly for the mental relaxation it gives. A 3 minute ride home using the car does not always leave time to shift gears out of workplace stresses.


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## My Own Advisor

Geez.... I second what andrew said...mental illness here...


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## Toronto.gal

This case was not really all that shocking, nor was it a recent immigrant issue, but more of a cultural scenario, so IMO, I think his background played a role in his behaviour.

The man moved to Canada from Yemen in 1987, so at 52 years of age, he would have arrived at 25, already an adult with either little ability or desire to adapt.

Yemen has a tribal social structure, and is one of the poorest & least developed countries in the MENA region, so little is surprising about this case. For example, it's against Islamic or Sharia law if you will, to borrow a mortgage, because you are not supposed to either pay or receive [excessive] interest, so the house payment in cash was perfectly normal to him, as were probably many of the other 'bizarre set of “micro-managing” house rules...' [have assumed him to be Muslim].

Also, Yemen suffers from acute water shortages, so that might explain his water measuring & other 'frugality'.

The man should have gotten help long ago, especially considering he's been living here for 27 years.


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> [have assumed him to be Muslim].


You've only got about a 2% chance of being incorrect. :biggrin:


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## andrewf

More shocking that no one, (no one!) in their community brought this abuse to the authorities. I'm assuming they didn't live as hermits.


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## RBull

It isn't me. 

Like most others have said, the person may have some mental issues or is following some strange custom re money. This should have been dealt with by someone involved or someone nearby- adult children, wife, neighbour etc.


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## Nemo2

Jeez, I don't know what goes on behind _my_ neighbor's closed doors.


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## donald

To be fair(mental illness is not something that is easily cured)It's like depression(a lot of people are familiar with this,if looking at sats of how much anti depression medication is administered-most families have someone close or know someone within the family battling it I would wager?)
Not only was the cultural differences at play here but it is also harder for men to seek help.
I'm only guessing but growing up in harsh conditions leaves a lasting impression(any ones of us growing up in a 3rd world country would be like this,like a post tramatic stress disorder)
This man likely was not abusing by choice.
I'm glad society is changing and putting a spot light on mental health(bell-let's talk ect)
Mental health problems are a huge problem(and it is keep in the dark)
I have had some depression problems in the past and it is not that easy to come out of!!very isolated,and it takes a lot of courage just to seek help!
Their is problems in every family but everybody likes to pretend otherwise(just m.o)....a lot of people wear ''masks'' in society.


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## carverman

RBull said:


> It isn't me.
> 
> Like most others have said, the person may have some mental issues or is following some strange custom re money. T*his should have been dealt with by someone involved or someone nearby- adult children, wife, neighbour *etc.


Not if he was a Muslim as others have hinted. 
I deduced from reading the story that he had to be from the middle east because that is the way they (he) behaved and lived.

The wife is subservient in these families and if they step out of line, they are dealt with severely in those religious circles, sometimes killed and made to look like an accident (like being pushed off an overpass at night). They don't mix with other families that are not Muslim , and therefore abuse can go on a long time undetected until some thing drastic happens. 

An example of this happened a couple of year ago? with a family from Montreal where the husband was in some kind of business in Yemen (I think) and came to Canada
and started a business in Montreal ...(Shafia trial)..the abuse of the daughters and first wife (from Afghanistan) continued after he took on a second wife.
The second wife, the son from the second wife, and the father (Shafia) then plotted to drown the 3 girls and first wife, and staged it to look like an accident. 

Even though the girls complained in Montreal to authorities of abuse by the father, the authorities didn't do anything until it was too late. 

This is very typical with these middle eastern families.


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## humble_pie

i don't think it's shocking & the imprisoned father may not be mentally ill. Rather i believe that stories such as this one - about drastically different foreign cultures that don't adapt easily to north american or western ways of life - are far more common than most canadians think.

toronto.gal has done a good job pulling out some of the cultural roots that could have produced this behaviour. The impression i have is of a possibly deeply devout & religious man who wanted to raise his children exactly the same harsh way he had been brought up himself.

all new canadians deal with variations of the loss-of-home-culture issue. Settling in canada means the generations will gradually lose the mother language & the ancestral culture. Sometimes we see attempts, benign or otherwise, to cause the children to carry on at least some traditions of the home culture while growing up & going to school here in contemporary canada. Sometimes the clash is severe. Sometimes the worst side of an authoritarian parent's control does not emerge until the children reach their teens, make friends & try to date.

in this case, it seems fortunate that all the oldest children were boys. Reading between the lines, it looks to me like they banded together to denounce the father & support their mother all the way to court. She, too, was exceptionally brave & must be a very strong person. I find myself wondering, though, if the story would have turned out more violently if the older children had all been girls.

i'm also reminded of the Shafia family, who drowned 3 of their daughters & an ex-wife in the Kingston locks because the daughters were dating boyfriends & the ex-wife was secretly on their side. The Shafia daughters had already tried like crazy to get the attention of social workers, but they were ignored. The ex-wife had tried, too, writing to at least one relative before she was murdered that she feared for her life.

nearly all - perhaps all - of the "honour killings" stories that have happened in canada have this same element. They are all an extreme product of a vastly different foreign family that tries to preserve its way of life - often an authoritarian, patriarchal & brutal way of life - in a country such as canada that will not tolerate it.

i wish there were an easy solution to the entire problem. It means the retraining of barbaric foreign customs that will never be allowed in canada, while retaining the best of the foreign culture. So very much easier said than done.

here in canada, we don't want to encourage vigilante racial profiling, snooping on our neighbours, etc. I mean, we don't, right? 

the only alternative i can think of is increased sensitization from key personnel who deal with the families in the first instance. Schools, teachers, medical professionals, social workers, police.


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## andrewf

Authorities that turn a deaf ear to reports of abuse by victims is appalling. Probably out of some fear of being accused of racism or cultural insensitivity.


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## Nemo2

carverman said:


> I deduced from reading the story that he had to be from the middle east because that is the way they (he) behaved and lived..


From the linked article:


> The recently convicted man, *who moved from Yemen* to Ottawa in 1987


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## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> drastically different foreign cultures


I think that unless one has had exposure to Muslim countries, (I've been to at least 9 of them), it's highly unlikely that one would have even a smidgen of comprehension....and even then it'd be an uphill slog.


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## Sherlock

I never got the impression that arabs/muslims were thrifty, I mean look at how this guy spends his money: http://www.forbes.com/sites/christo...h-writes-his-name-in-the-sand-two-miles-wide/

And we don't even know if the guy was muslim, he could have completely abandoned his faith after immigrating here and become an atheist.

Anyways here's another article with a bit more info: http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/legalfeeds/1893/when-does-being-cheap-become-harassment.html


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## carverman

humble_pie said:


> I find myself wondering, though, if the story would have turned out more violently if the older children had all been girls.
> 
> i wish there were an easy solution to the entire problem. It means the retraining of barbaric foreign customs that will never be allowed in canada, while retaining the best of the foreign culture. So very much easier said than done.
> 
> the only alternative i can think of is increased *sensitization from key personnel who deal with the families in the first instance*. Schools, teachers, medical professionals, social workers, police.


The problem is with these middle eastern families is that they do not relate to to social workers or anybody outside their faith unless it becomes clearly evident that their lives are threatened and in immediate danger, and then only if there is actual physical evidence of abuse.

I won't go into the Shafia family background, but the father was clearly a control freak that wanted to control everyone in his family, and when he couldn't, he resorted to his "middle eastern customs" of "disposing of his problems".

This is becoming more common place in Canada with these kind of immigrants. The Edmonton police service were hiring Muslim women as female police officers. These police officers (wearing a hijab, no doubt), would still have a hard time answering to abuse issues in a Muslim household,
and she would have a hard time getting the males in her Muslim community to respect her authority while in uniform....
but at least she would be able to come into their homes ..and maybe the women who are being abused by their husbands/fathers,
could open up to her as to what is going on.


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## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> From the linked article:


Yes, thanks...well I did say middle eastern. And obviously he seemed to be educated because he worked as computer programmer. Reminds me of the Omar Khadar case.
The father, Ahmed Khadr, moved to Canada in 1975 attended Ottawa U and started working at Bell Northern Research, (around 1978) while writing his Masters Thesis. 
Later on, he became linked with al-Qaida and went back to Pakistan to raise funds for them.


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## Nemo2

In order to illustrate the MENA mindset to those with no exposure to it, I used to relate the following (obviously fictitious) scenario:

Me: - (holding rock out at arm's length) "What would happen if I let this go?"

Them: "It would fly up into the air."

Me: "No, no."

Them: "Yes, yes.....I myself have seen it... Insha'Allah" (accompanied by nods of agreement)


Never the twain.......:rolleyes2:


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## RBull

carverman said:


> Not if he was a Muslim as others have hinted.
> I deduced from reading the story that he had to be from the middle east because that is the way they (he) behaved and lived.
> 
> The wife is subservient in these families and if they step out of line, they are dealt with severely in those religious circles, sometimes killed and made to look like an accident (like being pushed off an overpass at night). They don't mix with other families that are not Muslim , and therefore abuse can go on a long time undetected until some thing drastic happens.
> 
> An example of this happened a couple of year ago? with a family from Montreal where the husband was in some kind of business in Yemen (I think) and came to Canada
> and started a business in Montreal ...(Shafia trial)..the abuse of the daughters and first wife (from Afghanistan) continued after he took on a second wife.
> The second wife, the son from the second wife, and the father (Shafia) then plotted to drown the 3 girls and first wife, and staged it to look like an accident.
> 
> Even though the girls complained in Montreal to authorities of abuse by the father, the authorities didn't do anything until it was too late.
> 
> This is very typical with these middle eastern families.


Scary stuff indeed. This isn't what is needed in Canada or anywhere for that matter. If this is indeed typical for middle eastern families I think we need to very seriously review our immigration policies. I'm okay with profiling when we're talking about this kind of nonsense.


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## DesignerDee

I can see a trend coming...everyone will start doing this!

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Obsessively+frugal+Ottawa+father+spared+criminal+record/9471974/story.html

Wonder what he saved in those two and a half years.


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## james4beach

carverman said:


> Not if he was a Muslim as others have hinted.
> I deduced from reading the story that he had to be from the middle east because that is the way they (he) behaved and lived.
> 
> The wife is subservient in these families and if they step out of line, they are dealt with severely in those religious circles...


It's not accurate to tie the above description with Islam. What you're talking about is a certain kind of culture, and that's localized to the country or even the cultural sub group within a country: not the whole religion. Muslims come in many shapes and forms, with many different cultures.

You may want to revisit Logic 101 from university.
"Some Muslims abuse women" = true
"All Muslims abuse women" = false, but this is what you asserted
"Some Christians abuse women" = also true


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## james4beach

RBull said:


> Scary stuff indeed. This isn't what is needed in Canada or anywhere for that matter. If this is indeed typical for middle eastern families I think we need to very seriously review our immigration policies. I'm okay with profiling when we're talking about this kind of nonsense.


RBull then you probably also want to screen out Christians from the American south, as there are many known instances of patriarchal groups there where women and children are abused.

You'll also probably want to screen out orthodox Jewish people, as shown in this recent case (plastered all over the media) in Quebec about a group that allegedly has been abusing children, including sexual abuse of children in the Jewish community
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...rom_jewish_sect_be_placed_in_foster_care.html

But I didn't get that right I'm sure ... we're supposed to just pick on Muslims


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## Toronto.gal

james4beach said:


> What you're talking about is a certain kind of *culture*......You may want to *revisit Logic 101* from university.....we're supposed to just *pick on Muslims*


1st of all, there was no 'picking' of any sort, and 2nd of all, the subject came about simply because the person in question came from Yemen, and we were trying to tie his background/culture to his behaviour, since he had lived in that 'culture' for 25 years. 

Maybe you should get a few 101 lessons yourself, as it's not as simplistic as you make it sound. The fact of the matter is, that you can't always separate religion from cultural practices, and there are clearly cultures that repress women more than others [not that there is no abuse under others], or would you like to tell us about the gender equality & success of women in the MENA region, if so, what % would you say in comparison to say Canada? 

What do you suppose allows many cultural practices to be followed in the 1st place? What about Sharia law, where do you suppose the principles of the laws come from if not the religion/do you know what it says about gender equality/do you know what it says about marriage/divorce/punishment [in relation to women]/do you know what it says about finances/do you even know what Sharia law is?


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## james4beach

You have a valid point about a guy who has lived in Yemen for decades... yes that culture would definitely influence his behaviours and habits.

But that sort of situation can not be generalized to others of the same faith. For instance Sharia. Not all Muslims live by Sharia law and I bet very few % of the Muslims living in Canada abide by anything like Sharia law.

Most of the Muslims I know in my circle of friends drink alcohol and have premarital sex. The women work, they're professionals. And their parents drink too. So where is this Sharia law you're speaking of?


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## Toronto.gal

james4beach said:


> 1. You have a valid point about a guy who has lived in Yemen for decades... yes that culture would definitely influence his behaviours and habits.
> 2. For instance Sharia. Not all Muslims live by Sharia law and I bet very few % of the Muslims living in Canada abide by anything like Sharia law.


*1. *It's that man from Yemen that was being discussed here. And If you agree about the culture having influenced his behaviour and habits, then you would also agree about the other comments made here, like the Shafia family murders, as in that case, the father, too, had lived decades in places like Afghanistan/Pakistan before coming here in 2007.

*2.* I brought up Sharia law in relation to the person being discussed here, ie: his behaviour. Are you asleep or what? I even said in my previous post, that it was probably due to this Islamic law that he purchased his home in cash. Not saying that it was wrong, just that it tied his behaviour to his culture & religion. And he did not need a court of law to practice that law, did he?


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## Nemo2

james4beach said:


> Most of the Muslims I know in my circle of friends drink alcohol and have premarital sex. The women work, they're professionals. And their parents drink too. So where is this Sharia law you're speaking of?


And, if questioned, not _one_ of them would claim to be 'Good Muslims'.


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## m3s

Patriarchal families were the norm when/where I grew up (in Canada!). Most of my friends were terrified of their fathers' wrath "You just wait until your dad gets home!" The further back you go I'm sure this was the case. There are always nut jobs anywhere regardless of culture, religion etc. The media selects stories the majority of (non-Muslim) Canadians will want to read.

Most people are sheep who follow the status quo of their region, and most of the immigrants are just fine adjusting as james4beach explains. The majority of church-going Canadians don't actually follow their religious rules either, which are surprisingly similar whether Christian or Muslim. What people do in MENA has nothing to do with what people do in Canada... They are way behind but changing fast thanks to the internet. It's not like our past is much better or that our present culture is perfect, we've just progressed faster at this point in time. Most people in MENA don't chose to follow sharia law or American law, they follow whatever is enforced as there is a lack of education and money etc. They do what their neighbours or whatever they are manipulated to do. Canadians don't just wake up and chose to follow our rules on their own either.

The presumptuous posts all over this forum looking down on Muslims are uncalled for. The past year I was in Morocco, Libya, Albania, Kosovo, Egypt, Turkey, Saudi, Djibouti, UAE/Qatar, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Malaysia and I met about as many crazies as I would in Canada. They say Insha'Allah as casually as we say OMG. The American moto is In God We Trust.. the Canadian national anthem God keep our land... glorious and free...


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## Nemo2

m3s said:


> The presumptuous posts all over this forum looking down on Muslims are uncalled for. The past year I was in Morocco, Libya, Albania, Kosovo, Egypt, Turkey, Saudi, Djibouti, UAE/Qatar, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Malaysia and I met about as many crazies as I would in Canada. .


And I've been in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi, Turkey, and Yemen, (and dealt with Palestinians and people from Somalia, Sudan, etc).......and _my_ opinion is that the religion IS the problem......try reading a little Ayaan Hirsi Ali for starters.


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## andrewf

That's why making more atheists is among the noblest of callings. Disabusing people of superstition can prevent a great deal of needless suffering.


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## Toronto.gal

andrewf said:


> That's why making more atheists is among the noblest of callings.....


But some believe religion is NOT the problem.


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## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> and _my_ opinion is that the religion IS the problem......try reading a little Ayaan Hirsi Ali for starters.


As is mine, who has also been to some of the countries mentioned above; in fact, I lived for a short-time in one of those as well [quite different from simply vacationing and smiling with the locals]. Plus not to mention the several books I have read, including Hirsi Ali's. I don't just get my info. from youtube or wiki, as an individual or two here suggested in the past. :rolleyes2:

A bigger problem IMO = those denying such a fact even, especially Muslims themselves, but many are already acknowledging it, and are now writing books about it to educate people.

It isn't culture alone that has MENA in several conflicts, religious turmoil and horrific wars there today [never mind ancient ones]. The conflicts aren't just about catching up to modernity, and speaking of modernity, when oil finally becomes a replaceable commodity, what will happen in key areas there once their economies might worsen even? One just has to remember what began the Arab Spring, so try to imagine the region in worse economic conditions.

To understand the behaviour/culture/ideologies, one needs to have some knowledge of the religion also, because you can't isolate it.

Religion indeed creates conflict, and its teachings have been used as weapons there and outside, ie: terror attacks, and not always can one simply say, 'nothing to do with Islam', especially not when such crimes have killed thousands in just the last couple of years even in non-war scenarios.

'The Middle East stands, as it has for centuries, at the center of historical currents and conflicting ideologies' - why is that?


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## Nemo2

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCon...-or-link-to-Muslim-Brotherhood-not-proof.aspx



> London had rejected the Egyptian government’s designation of the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organisation, insisting the group is legal in the UK.
> 
> Furious about Brotherhood activists being allowed to reside in, and operate from, UK soil, Egyptian media figures and politicians have accused the UK government of promoting terrorism and extremism.
> 
> The FCO spokesman, however, confirms that "membership or links to the Muslim Brotherhood in the UK are not considered, in themselves, proof of extremism, or links to extremist activity,"


From my viewpoint such actions/philosophies as those undertaken by the UK government in this instance are nothing short of willful cultural capitulation..............Ruhollah Khomeini plotted the takeover of Iran while given 'sanctuary' in Paris.....how did that all turn out?


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## carverman

Nemo2 said:


> From my viewpoint such actions/philosophies as those undertaken by the UK government in this instance are nothing short of willful cultural capitulation..............Ruhollah Khomeini plotted the takeover of Iran while given 'sanctuary' in Paris.....how did that all turn out?


Somewhere in the politics, there is always a great deal of money involved. Another example was the Shah in Iran (1977 revolution), who was trying to find asylum in any country that would take him, he ended up in Egypt, even though Khomeni wanted him back... to more than likely execute him and his wife.
He died of a rare disease that couldn't be treated.


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## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> Ruhollah Khomeini plotted the takeover of Iran while given 'sanctuary' in Paris.....how did that all turn out?


Indeed!

Goes to show that whatever those 'activists/leaders' did in Egypt for decades b4 settling in London [as I assume the leaders are 20+], has everything to do with how they are behaving in the latter.

I suppose it makes much more sense to the UK to ban US & other far-right activists [as they have done], but not the above mentioned MB activists. 

If only some of those far-right activists didn't oppose Sharia law, then they would have been allowed in. So much for equal freedom of speech.

*'Brotherhood's political wing, the Freedom and Justice Party, has employed a London-based team of internationally renowned lawyers to build a case against Egypt's military-backed authorities.'
*


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## Nemo2

carverman said:


> Shah in Iran (1977 revolution)


Not to be a pedant...but it was 1979.

Another example is Ho Chi Minh, who was allowed into France only to eventually oust the French from Indochina; (his sister had previously been employed with the French military so as to steal armaments to be used against them).

If you let the Visigoths into Rome there is a price to be paid.


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## james4beach

Toronto.gal said:


> But some believe religion is NOT the problem.


I still say it's not the religion, it's the culture. They're not one and the same.

For instance when that fundamentalist Jewish group in Quebec beats and sexually abuses their children, is Judaism to blame?
No, it's not Judaism - obviously

But if you asked those fundamentalists, they would reference the religious scriptures and say the religion commands them to do these things.

It's no different with Islam or Christianity. The fundamentalists of these groups say that the crazy stuff they do is commanded to by the texts


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## Nemo2

james4beach said:


> I still say it's not the religion, it's the culture. They're not one and the same.


One of the Saudi English-language newspapers had a column, (intended for primarily non-Arabic speaking Muslims, e.g. Pakistanis, Indonesians, etc), which partially illustrated the extent to which Islam is not only a political/religious amalgam but also a monolithic "Emily Post" behavioral dictum.

Such questions as "What to do about 'nocturnal emissions' (wet dreams) during Ramadan" were indicative of the all pervasive intrusion that Islam has into the lives of its adherents........to paraphrase Marshall McLuhan "The Muftis are the mores".


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## andrewf

You may not agree that religion is one of the problems, but do you really think it is a/the solution? Good people would be good without religion. Evil people use religion to cow the masses into agreeing to perpetuate evil.

If it doesn't help, and might harm, why keep it?


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## james4beach

Oh boy, now we're debating the point of religions


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## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> You may not agree that religion is one of the problems, but do you really think it is a/the solution? Good people would be good without religion. Evil people use religion to cow the masses into agreeing to perpetuate evil.
> 
> If it doesn't help, and might harm, why keep it?


Evil people will use _anything_ to 'cow the masses' (Pol Pot anyone?)........religion, (although I have no personal affiliation with it), can provide direction/moral teaching and encourage and bind communities.

But, as with anything/everything else, those looking to foment unrest and to seize power will utilize every available vehicle......be it science, religion, ideology, whatever, and they will gravitate to positions of power within the sphere that promises the most opportunity.

(I recall writing to journalist Robert Fulford, some 12 years ago, after he had published an article about child molesting priests within the Catholic Church, wherein I presented the opinion that said priests were not (necessarily) a product of the church, but rather were attracted _to_ the church because of the opportunities it provided..................As I said to him "If you're hunting rabbits you don't go into the middle of a lake....you go where the rabbits are".)


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## Toronto.gal

james4beach said:


> I still say it's not the religion, it's the culture. They're not one and the same.


You're entitled to your opinion, so call it culture, tradition, tribal codes, or whatever you like, but you can't fully exclude the religion from any of those, especially when it is much more than a private relationship with God. 

Also, you can pick any small group of extremists from anywhere in the world, just to convince yourself and/or prove your personal belief, but it achieves nothing. 

*Nemo:* did you read ‘Sex and the Citadel’ - by Shereen El Feki? An eye opener!


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> *Nemo:* did you read ‘Sex and the Citadel’ - by Shereen El Feki? An eye opener!


No...I will check to see if our library has it......(I fairly recently picked up, but it remains unread at this time, a copy of _"The Malady of Islam"_ by Abdelwahab Meddeb)


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## Nemo2

james4beach said:


> Oh boy, now we're debating the point of religions


Next up....navel gazing......or, for those at sea, naval gazing. :chuncky:


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## andrewf

Non-religious people manage to develop a sense of morality (often unencumbered by obsolete nonsense from the stone age), so I hardly see that as a valid argument for the necessity of religion. Certainly not sufficient to outweigh the harm it does in shielding irrational beliefs and superstition from critical analysis.


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## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> Non-religious people manage to develop a sense of morality (often unencumbered by obsolete nonsense from the stone age)


Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao Tse Tung, Kim Jong-Il?


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> *Nemo:* did you read ‘Sex and the Citadel’ - by Shereen El Feki? An eye opener!


I have it on order from our library. :encouragement:


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## andrewf

Did you have a point?


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## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> Did you have a point?


Examples of (in)famous modern day non-religious people who apparently didn't manage to develop a sense of morality.


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## m3s

Nemo2 said:


> Evil people will use _anything_ to 'cow the masses' (Pol Pot anyone?)........religion, (although I have no personal affiliation with it), can provide direction/moral teaching and encourage and bind communities.
> 
> But, as with anything/everything else, those looking to foment unrest and to seize power will utilize every available vehicle......be it science, religion, ideology, whatever, and they will gravitate to positions of power within the sphere that promises the most opportunity.


Today's extremists are backed by various outsiders as well that have various non-religious agendas. People have coexisted just fine with different religions but it's a tinder box, as it's easy for someone with hidden agendas to convince one side that the other needs to be oppressed. That's what troubles me with all the Muslim-hate. The young kids all around the world are very easy to connect with now that we have a common culture [the internet].. Even our own youth see religion much much differently than our grandparents did.. Nowadays people typically say they are "culturally Jewish" or that their religion is a cultural identity or a family thing etc etc. Times are changing, how things were 20 years ago is as relevant as the Berlin wall.


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## Nemo2

m3s said:


> Even our own youth see religion much much differently than our grandparents did.. Nowadays people typically say they are "culturally Jewish" or that their religion is a cultural identity or a family thing etc etc. Times are changing, how things were 20 years ago is as relevant as the Berlin wall.


http://www.newsweek.com/most-suicide-bombers-have-three-things-common-christopher-dickey-79525



> when we are talking about people "doing jihad," the overwhelming majority are young men, even boys. As Hoffman notes, the average age of the 19 September 11 hijackers was 24, while that of Palestinian suicide bombers is 21. To cite only the most recent examples: the suicide bomber in Riyadh, Abdullah Hassan Tali Assiri, was 24; Najibullah Zazi is also 24; Finton is 29; Smadi is only 19.


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## andrewf

Nemo2 said:


> Examples of (in)famous modern day non-religious people who apparently didn't manage to develop a sense of morality.


So being non-religious is necessary but not sufficient to develop morality? Interesting argument, but not one I think I would advance.


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## andrewf

m3s said:


> Today's extremists are backed by various outsiders as well that have various non-religious agendas. People have coexisted just fine with different religions but it's a tinder box, as it's easy for someone with hidden agendas to convince one side that the other needs to be oppressed. That's what troubles me with all the Muslim-hate. The young kids all around the world are very easy to connect with now that we have a common culture [the internet].. Even our own youth see religion much much differently than our grandparents did.. Nowadays people typically say they are "culturally Jewish" or that their religion is a cultural identity or a family thing etc etc. Times are changing, how things were 20 years ago is as relevant as the Berlin wall.


This. It's what gives me great hope that religion will fade away to quaint traditions and meaningless holidays.


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## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> So being non-religious is necessary but not sufficient to develop morality? Interesting argument, but not one I think I would advance.


No....being non-religious is not 'necessary' to develop morality, and that is something I neither suggested nor alluded to.

My post was in response to your statement that:


> Non-religious people manage to develop a sense of morality


......and pointed out that "Non-religious people" were in fact the biggest perpetrators of _immorality_ in the 20th century........your subsequent misinterpretation notwithstanding.


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## andrewf

Are you arguing that they were immoral because of their irreligiousity? Because Nazism was explicitly Christian, whether or not Hitler was particularly devout (he was Catholic, at least in his formative years and he was never explicitly atheist in his ideology). 

Stalin was a seminarian. Pol Pot was Buddhist. Mussolini was in bed with the Catholic Church. The Kim family are deities in North Korea (at least in their propaganda).

Nothing excuses religion from being the source of so much defective morality. Religion is not beyond reproach, and deserves scorn to be heaped on it when it advocates hateful, cruel morality. The stuff that's worth keeping about religion, like the golden rule, doesn't require belief in the supernatural.


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## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> Are you arguing that they were immoral because of their irreligiousity?


 Only to the same degree that you are presenting the idea that non-religious people are moral.



andrewf said:


> Because Nazism was explicitly Christian, whether or not Hitler was particularly devout (he was Catholic, at least in his formative years and he was never explicitly atheist in his ideology).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#Bibliography


> Hitler repeatedly stated that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science.





andrewf said:


> Stalin was a seminarian. Pol Pot was Buddhist. Mussolini was in bed with the Catholic Church. The Kim family are deities in North Korea (at least in their propaganda).


As I noted before:


> those looking to foment unrest and to seize power will utilize every available vehicle......be it science, religion, ideology, whatever, and they will gravitate to positions of power within the sphere that promises the most opportunity.


.......just because someone attended a seminary, or is ostensibly Buddhist/whatever does not make them such in actuality........Pol Pot was a communist.



andrewf said:


> Nothing excuses religion from being the source of so much defective morality. Religion is not beyond reproach, and deserves scorn to be heaped on it when it advocates hateful, cruel morality. The stuff that's worth keeping about religion, like the golden rule, doesn't require belief in the supernatural.


I have never proposed that religion is 'beyond reproach'; I have no religious affiliations and regard the 'supernatural' aspect as nothing more than a holdover from (more) primitive times used to convey the _concept_ of a 'greater power' than oneself........i.e. 'you' are not the centre of the universe.


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## andrewf

> Only to the same degree that you are presenting the idea that non-religious people are moral.


I didn't claim that *all* non-religious people are moral. Just there exists (many) non-religious people who are moral. Therefore, religion is not necessary for morality. I think you were using the straw-man fallacy. Obviously eliminating religion would not eliminate immorality. 

I'm opposed to belief in the supernatural. To me, religion inherently requires belief in the supernatural. So if it doesn't do much good and does much harm, why keep it?


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## james4beach

andrewf said:


> Are you arguing that they were immoral because of their irreligiousity? Because Nazism was explicitly Christian


That's a good point


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## Nemo2

james4beach said:


> That's a good point


http://www.examiner.com/article/were-the-nazis-christians 



> It's a frequent claim by skeptics that Hitler and the Nazis were Christians. Christopher Hitchens makes this point in practically every debate he participates in by pointing out the "God with Us" emblem that was found on the belt buckles of every Nazi uniform. Likewise, excerpts from Mein Kampf which speak of "God" are put forth as proof of Hitler's Christian faith.
> 
> Like most urban legends, however, this one takes a sliver of truth and exaggerates it into epic proportions.
> 
> The fact is, Hitler and the Nazi party would never have risen to power without appealing to the religious sentiments of the German people. Thus, they carefully crafted rhetoric that would enable them to appear as faithful leaders who God had appointed to bring Germany back from the ruin it had experienced after WWI.*
> 
> In his bestselling book "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy", biographer Eric Metaxas devotes a chapter to the intersection between Nazi propaganda and Christian theology.
> 
> One sometimes hears that Hitler was a Christian. He was certainly not, but neither was he openly anti-Christian, as most of his top lieutenants were. What helped him aggrandize power, he approved of, and what prevented it, he did not. He was utterly pragmatic. In public he often made comments that made him sound pro-church or pro-Christian, but there can be no question that he said these things cynically, for political gain. In private, he possessed an unblemished record of statements against Christianity and Christians.
> 
> Hitler’s attitude toward Christianity was that it was a great heap of mystical out-of-date nonsense. But what annoyed Hitler was not that it was nonsense, but that it was nonsense *that did not help him get ahead.** According to Hitler, Christianity preached “meekness and flabbiness,” and this was simply not useful to the National Socialist ideology, which preached “ruthlessness and strength.” In time, he felt that the churches would change their ideology. He would see to it.
> 
> Martin Bormann and Heinrich Himmler were the most passionately anti-Christian members of Hitler’s inner circle, and they didn’t believe the churches should adapt or could. They wanted the clergy crushed and the churches abolished, and they encouraged Hitler along these lines whenever possible. They hoped to accelerate the timetable for open warfare with the
> 
> church, but Hitler was in no hurry. Whenever he attacked the churches, his popularity waned. Unlike his top men, Hitler had an instinctive political sense of timing, and now was not the time to take on the churches directly. Now was the time to pretend to be pro-Christian. Hitler’s architect, Albert Speer, was a firsthand witness to Hitler’s coldblooded approach: “Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his close associates, above all Göring and Goebbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said,
> although he had no real attachment to it.”


*As I noted upthread.


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## Nemo2

andrewf said:


> I'm opposed to belief in the supernatural. To me, religion inherently requires belief in the supernatural. So if it doesn't do much good and does much harm, why keep it?


You, and I, may not feel a need for religion, but it would appear that every civilization throughout history _has_ felt that requirement....why is that?

As to moral non-religious people......did those 'morals' just appear independently, or were they absorbed from childhood, (even before such awareness was possible/likely), as part of the societal mores established by one or more religions?


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## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> You, and I, may not feel a need for religion, but it would appear that *every civilization throughout history has felt that requirement*....why is that?


Indeed it's been a cultural phenomenon even, and why it's incorrect to say culture & religion are 2 different things, as J4B & others seem to be so sure of, especially when for some, their religion/beliefs/interpretations of it, dictate every part of their lives. Like in all religions, culture and religion are indeed the same in some instances, and ignoring such a fact has led to bigger problems.

Needless to say, there are various aspects about culture that have nothing to do with religion, but to dismiss any connection, no matter the religion, is naive. For example, head-coverings such as a kipa or hijab, are cultural; the former is to respect the God above, the latter to dress modestly, hence these are customs rather than religious commands, for which there are no written passages even.

Given that the cultural/religious phenomena is very much alive, and that it won't disappear in our lifetime, one should at least have some basic understanding in order to understand human behaviour, and not just give facile answers/comments.


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## andrewf

Nemo2 said:


> You, and I, may not feel a need for religion, but it would appear that every civilization throughout history _has_ felt that requirement....why is that?


They are the basis/consequence of creation myths. One thing we know is that none of the creation myths are supported by evidence. That's something new since the founding of most religions.



> As to moral non-religious people......did those 'morals' just appear independently, or were they absorbed from childhood, (even before such awareness was possible/likely), as part of the societal mores established by one or more religions?


Interesting question, which is probably beyond the scope of this discussion. There's evidence to suggest that a lot of morality is just innate. Primates exhibit a similar sense of morality to humans (wrt fairness, etc.). So, I think religion likely got morality from nature. Morality being an evolved trait that leads to greater success in social species such as primates. It certainly doesn't come from books written by stone age goat herders that tell you to stone women and murder infants.


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## Jacq

I grew up fairly similar to the kids in the article (3rd generation German family) back in the '70s. It wasn't the norm then - and obviously isn't now. 

There were 8 of us kids with my 5 brothers sleeping in 2 double beds in 1 bedroom in the basement and us 3 girls in 1 double bed upstairs (1000 sf house). Needless to say, we didn't have sleepovers with friends when I was a kid. :rolleyes2:

Money was always more important to my father than people - even now at 94 y.o., I would guess he lives on about $500/month, if that. I'm not sure how much he's worth, somewhere in the low to mid 7 figures, so is a classic money hoarder. Not having the love of my children and other people is not a price I would want to pay for "security". I think I'd feel more secure in my old age knowing my kids would take me in or visit me in the old folks home than I would with a great deal more money than I can ever use. It's a terrible way of keeping score and a sad way to live.


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## Sherlock

Update on the story: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile...her+spared+criminal+record/9471974/story.html

The guy is no longer in jail but is not allowed to contact his wife and kids.


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## underemployedactor

"Outstanding citizen"? What the hell is that judge smoking?
"Noone was seriously injured in this conduct except perhaps emotionally." And we all know, that doesn't count.
Ontario Superior Court Justice Charles Hackland is a horse's *** and should be removed from the bench.


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> *Nemo:* did you read ‘Sex and the Citadel’ - by Shereen El Feki? An eye opener!


Picked it up from the library yesterday.......just into the initial pages so far, but a line in the intro pertaining to the relative lack of HIV, etc, in Arab countries bought back a memory from early 1982.........a lady on our compound was hired by a local hospital in the records department......on her first day she was informed that "There were no STDs in Saudi Arabia".....and the lack of files supported this..............in the _dermatology_ files, however.....:chuncky:

(What did Billy Shakespeare say about titles given to woody perennials?)


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## Toronto.gal

^ And remember what Ahmadinejad said?

"In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who has told you we have that."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3642673


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> ^ And remember what Ahmadinejad said?
> 
> "In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who has told you we have that."
> http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3642673


As is said about "A river in Egypt"...............:chuncky:


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## m3s

Toronto.gal said:


> Indeed it's been a cultural phenomenon even, and why it's incorrect to say culture & religion are 2 different things, as J4B & others seem to be so sure of, especially when for some, their religion/beliefs/interpretations of it, dictate every part of their lives.


Again, many young people today call themselves "bad muslims" and "culturally jewish" etc. That generally means they still follow some cultural traditions but don't let religion dictate every part of their lives.



Toronto.gal said:


> ^ And remember what Ahmadinejad said?


Your Mayor said he smokes crack cocaine, so that means you must condone smoking crack cocaine and agree with everything he says.



Nemo2 said:


> when we are talking about people "doing jihad," the overwhelming majority are young men, even boys. As Hoffman notes, the average age of the 19 September 11 hijackers was 24, while that of Palestinian suicide bombers is 21. To cite only the most recent examples: the suicide bomber in Riyadh, Abdullah Hassan Tali Assiri, was 24; Najibullah Zazi is also 24; Finton is 29; Smadi is only 19.


The overwhelming majority of criminals around the world are young men. Does that really mean the overwhelming majority of young men are criminals? You know better than this.

Most people around the world seem to know how to separate politics from real people, and that what happened generations ago is past. We seem to be absorbed in the "You're either with us or against us" polarization


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## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> As is said about "A river in Egypt"...............:chuncky:


It's pretty sad, isn't it? I'll be reading Denial Is Not A River In Egypt. 

Indeed, denial of certain things in 2014, false belief or whatever one wants to call it, is pretty retarded, and barbaric even! 

And those that tried to disprove Ahmadinejad's denial of homosexuals, got lashes and received jail sentences for insulting the ex-President!

Oh, and then there are those that are actually hanged for being homosexuals, if we are to believe all the reports about it.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/07/iran-executes-men-homosexuality-charges

And under Rouhani?

*“Being gay is not a Western invention; it is a human reality. And protecting the human rights of all people, gay or straight, is not something that only Western governments do.”*
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/iran-hostile-gays-article-1.1521730

Did you finish reading El Feki's book?


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> Did you finish reading El Feki's book?


Not yet......I just read a few pages nightly....it'll take me a while.....absorbing though....(_'urfi_ might appeal to a number of Westerners........although, in one form or another, it already exists).


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## rossco12

Aside from the starving aspect, I was raised along these same guidelines to a less extreme extent and hold no resentment over it. My father is a successful general contractor in commercial construction. Hardest worker I've ever known, and cheaper than the day is long. The only time our ancient clothes dryer was ever on was when he wasn't home to tell us how much electricity it used. Clothes are washed with a teaspoon of detergent and cold water, and if it's raining they're hung up in the basement. There was no allowance growing up, any shower longer than 10 minutes resulted in an argument over how much hot water cost, and I was berated whenever I left my bedroom light on. What I didn't appreciate growing up, was that it was these guidelines that allowed him to have our 7.5 acres of property paid for, zero consumer debt, not to mention him being home to spend time with me for a significant portion of my childhood and remain financially comfortable. The only difference is that we ate like royalty. We raised chickens, bought a whole beef at the auction and put into the deep freeze, drove to keremeos or spences bridge in search of unsprayed vegetables. No complaints


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## Jungle

If you don't have the means or money, is it still abuse? 
I guess the question is this father lived as if that was case.


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## andrewf

I think the 'to a less extreme extent' is kind of the point of the charges.


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> *Nemo:* did you read ‘Sex and the Citadel’ - by Shereen El Feki? An eye opener!


If you still have a copy, (saves me typing it out), I laughed at the middle paragraph on page 74 last night.............reminded me of listening to so many diatribes where I just sat there and thought _Whaaat?_


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## Toronto.gal

^ No, I no longer have the book [only buy those I wish to keep; others I borrow], but I'm visiting someone later today who does have it, and will take a peek. :wink:

Going back to the frugal father/husband, he asked the judge at his sentencing earlier this month, 'to spare him a criminal record so he could travel and rebuild his life.' And the judge gave in, because according to him: 'No one was seriously injured from this conduct except, perhaps, emotionally.....The accused’s family was the focus of his life and, due to his conduct, he lost them. The rupture is likely permanent. In addition, he has lost his employment, his reputation and most of his assets and property.' 

But little did the judge say about what all his victims lost. 

I must say though, that I feel sorry for them all. I really do not believe that the man even realized he was being abusive. I wonder though, if his 'humiliation' [what seemed to have hurt him most], will prevent him from same abuse in the future.

What the judge got right: 'He respected his religion...'. Again, can't separate culture from religion.


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> ^ No, I no longer have the book [only buy those I wish to keep; others I borrow], but I'm visiting someone later today who does have it, and will take a peek. :wink:


I'll type it in anyway for those who haven't read, or won't read the book:

The author is a Canadian woman of Egyptian/Welsh extraction who went to the ME, (primarily, but not exclusively, Egypt), in an attempt to catalogue/understand their sexual mores and how religion/culture impacts them, and vice versa:



> _.....Azza's husband described how a discreet inquiry around the office revealed twenty of his colleagues with sexual difficulties, ranging from premature ejaculation to none at all. Some blamed it on the economy, others on pollution, but after much discussion they concluded it was a Western-Israeli plot. According to the office consensus, there are secret agents all over Cairo wearing special belts that emit some sort of spray or beam to neuter Egyptian men, thereby weakening the nation and reducing population growth. What's protecting the agents themselves from such malign effects was not considered; perhaps they are women, or men kitted out in special Western-Zionist underpants to shield them from the blast?_


Note: I've sat and listened to equally outlandish conspiracy theories, so I have no doubt that the above paragraph is valid.


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## Toronto.gal

Nemo2 said:


> Note: I've sat and listened to equally outlandish conspiracy theories, so I have no doubt that the above paragraph is valid.


The various 'outlandish conspiracy theories' would be funny, if it wasn't for the fact that millions around the globe swallow it, and the fact that most target Israel for everything in some way.

Btw, have you heard the latest? It was Israel's Institute for Intelligence, aka: the Mossad, that was responsible for the Arab Spring/the Egyptian coup d'état [or whatever u want to call it]/Chavez' death, et al. The latter blamed not only his cancer, but also the illness of Argentina's President Cristina de Kirchner on Israeli agents. :stupid: Maduro is now parroting the late Chavez, saying: 'There's no doubt that Commandante Chavez's health came under attack by the enemy....The old enemies of our fatherland looked for a way to harm his health,' according to Maduro, drawing a parallel to the illness and 2004 death of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, which some supporters blamed on poisoning by Israeli agents.

*More about Shereen El Feki:* 'born in Great Britain to a Welsh mother and an Egyptian father. She grew up in Canada, visiting her grandmother in Cairo on a regular basis. After graduating from the University of Toronto and obtaining a PhD degree in immunology at the University of Cambridge, she joined The Economist as Healthcare Correspondent in 1998. After the 2001 WTC terror attacks, she learned Arabic and started to research the Middle East, in particular, the issues of emancipation and women's sexuality, spending much of her time in Egypt. In 2005, she left the Economist, and from 2006 to 2008, she hosted weekly shows, People & Power and The Pulse, on Al Jazeera International. From 2010 to 2012, she was vice chairwoman of the United Nations’ Global Commission on H.I.V. and the Law.'

This interview might interest you also [if you did not already watch it]. Fascinating woman, not to mention brave!
http://ww3.tvo.org/video/193145/sher...sex-arab-world


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> The various 'outlandish conspiracy theories' would be funny, if it wasn't for the fact that millions around the globe swallow it, and the fact that most target Israel for everything in some way.


Alinsky #13


> “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”


(Will watch the interview this afternoon....thanks.)


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## Pluto

Sounds like what abusive dad did is what David Suzuki wants everyone to do.


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## Nemo2

Toronto.gal said:


> This interview might interest you also [if you did not already watch it]. Fascinating woman, not to mention brave!
> http://ww3.tvo.org/video/193145/sher...sex-arab-world


:encouragement: (If there's anything we miss about not watching television it's likely the absence of TVO.)


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## Cal

All the story mentioned was saving for the townhome.....wonder what he did with the rest of the money, he made good $, and saved his 2 kids part time job $ too. All for what?

I am frugal, but I enjoy eating, heat, trips sometimes, light....

Didn't exactly think it through by moving to Ottawa if he didn't want to pay for heat, did he....


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