# How much do you set aside on house maitenance per year?



## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok, time to move off the car thread onto another subject..your primary residence and how much in maintenance/improvements it costs you on average per year.

I've been in my "working class semi" since 1996 and other than a new flat roof in 2003 ($4500), I really haven't spent anything on it. I also spent about $2400 to replace the complete
A/C in 2010 when the old a/c (15 years old) completely lost the refrigerant, making it more cost effective to go to a new refrigerant. 
Last year, I spent about $2400 for a new garage cement floor as the old one cracked and heaved at the front due to water leaking in from the driveway. (not enough drainage slope on
the driveway)

This year, it needs new mansard roof shingles and I'm putting in new insulation...cost of new roof and insulation around $15K.
The 42 year old asphalt driveway that I share with my 87 year old neigbour(widow) needs repair badly but she doesn't want to spend any money on her side..so I'm going alone with it
and an upgrade using interlock on my steps to the walkway. 
All in all, between the new cement floor in the garage, and roof/insulation and new asphalt on the driveway I plan to spend about 18K this year, which is coming out of my TFSA.

So if I calculate my purchase price in 1996 ($121K and what it may be worth today $275K), there is some equity in it for the necessary repairs and upgrades and on average
this place will cost me about 18K + 4.5K + 2.5k + 2.0 (27K/18 years = $1.5K per year or about $ 120per month in maintenance..averaged out of course. I don't expect to pay
this huge maintenance again. except to replace the hwt which I own or the furnace which is now 19 years old.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

I just calculated this for a separate conversation - in the last almost 24 months I have replaced the water heater and furnace, roof, some windows, the last of the knob and tube, some insulation, fixed a problem with the basement plumbing, the washing machine, and decided to upgrade the kitchen (which had last been "upgraded" in the 1940s - I had ONE outlet in the kitchen - we ripped out the plaster and lath and upgraded the wiring and insulation, took down the dropped ceiling and replaced it plus installed pot lights).

The all-in total for that work, NOT including the other kitchen upgrades (we bought new cabinetry, a new stove, and a new dishwasher during the IKEA sale, and we are making concrete countertops - finish coat is drying as I type), is $30K. 

However, that brings pretty much everything up to, uh, 1990s standards. There is no granite, no stainless steel refrigerator, none of my appliances match, etc. I would characterize everything except the kitchen cabinet upgrades as maintenance and repair, not upgrades. 

I have been somewhat freaked out about the cost. Meanwhile, my next-door neighbour on one side is dropping what must be $50K on converting her garage into an insulated, wired living space, and my neighbour on the other side is doubling the size of his house by converting most of his back yard into a giant house addition ($100K?). 

(Those comments about my neighbours don't answer your question about maintenance but I think about them as I worry about spending $30K in the ways that I have! Frugality dies very hard in this household)

My line-item for regular maintenance is $5K per year. Averaged out, I'm within that budget - everything just clustered in the last two years.


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## mind_business (Sep 24, 2011)

I have two line-items in my budget. One to address Maintenance ($1200 per year), and another to account for Home Improvements ($2400 per year). 

Maintenance to me is replacing a fan motor in a furnace, patching the roof, replacing a broken window, etc.

Home Improvements is replacing the entire furnace, replacing the roof, etc.

We live in a house that is mostly renovated, so we lowered our overall 'Home Improvement' budget from our previous home. We used to allocate $4800 per year to address known upcoming expenses.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> I have been somewhat freaked out about the cost. Meanwhile, my next-door neighbour on one side is dropping what must be $50K on converting her garage into an insulated, wired living space, and my neighbour on the other side is doubling the size of his house by converting most of his back yard into a giant house addition ($100K?).
> 
> (Those comments about my neighbours don't answer your question about maintenance but I think about them as I worry about spending $30K in the ways that I have! Frugality dies very hard in this household)
> 
> My line-item for regular maintenance is $5K per year. Averaged out, I'm within that budget - everything just clustered in the last two years.


I was also freaked out with the estimate for the mansard roof shingles and new insulation..$15K with taxes added in. I expect that the new insulation (but it also 
really does need new shingles) will save me about $150 to maybe $200 a year on heating costs, so the savings do not justify the replacement cost..but the shingles are stained and at least 25 years old and the loose insulation in the upstairs walls causes drafts on those -25C nights when the wind is blowing. 

I got one estimate to completely redo the driveway, but this also included the neighbours side and since she is not interested in paying for her side, I am doing just my side..

First estimate I got was $5583 + hst. When I mentioned that I was only going to do my side, he quoted $3995 + hst..and this would be a saw cut down the middle of the shared driveway. I'm trying to get some more quotes from other paving contractors.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

I don't run a budget for the house, I just do what needs to be done.

In the past ten years my major expenses have been,
- furnace $2700 (gov. grants / rebate paid $1200 on top of that)
- hot water heater $1200
- insulation -$700 ( with gov. grants I actually made money on this)
- dryer $400
- fridge $550
- yard work $300
- garage door opener $150

Total $4600
The new furnace, water heater and R50+ insulation is saving me at least $400 a year, probably a bit more on electric for the AC in the summer. If we get more winters like the last one, the savings will add up faster.

In the previous ten years before that,
- house shingles/roofing/gutters $1900
- garage shingles/roofing $800 

Total $2700


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

This is how I do it - 

http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/estimate-budget-home-maintenance-costs/

I don't know realistic it is to do an annual maintenance amount - the actual costs tend to come in clusters.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mind_business said:


> We used to allocate $4800 per year to address known upcoming expenses.


I'm also separating real maintenance costs, roof, outside painting, yard work from inside improvements, such as stair chairs, disabled bathroom, wheelchairs inside the house as
these expenses are more personal than a kitchen upgrade or flooring, but still come out of my yearly budget. I'm about $1800 a year for maintenance, which includes lawn cutting and snow removal.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

I see these costs two ways.

1) home maintenance related to upgrades (nothing broken but want to do it, can defer costs) - we probably spend about $3-5k per year.

2) general costs associated with maintaining home (needs to be done, cannot defer costs) - lawn cutting, snow removal, furnace maintenance, other - $2-3k per year.

The problem with #1 is, if you defer too long and you're into major #2.


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

Probably $7-10k per year. 

In the last 7 years...

Underground sprinkler system, $3k
New roof shingles, $8k
Flagstone front porch, $10k
Granite counters in kitchen plus new backsplash, sink, taps, $12k
New pool pump and salt water system, $3k
New deck with nice aluminum railing and gates, $12k
New insulated garage doors, $4k
New light fixtures for main floor (handmade in Quebec), $3500
Landscaping with garden reno and 50 new cedar trees for a hedge, $7000

I am planning on a total master bath reno this year and have received quotes recently all in the $25-30k range. Sounds expensive but sure cheaper than upgrading to the $1.3m homes my wife sends me from mls. Current house is paid for so I don't mind a few upgrades here and there. All paid with cash and never until all investing accounts are maxed for the year.

Cut my own grass (reel mower)!


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## thompsg4416 (Aug 18, 2010)

Interesting thread considering I'm moving into my first full house this summer. Up until now I've always had a condo which is considerably less work. I think maintenance costs are going to vary from home to home depending on the age of the home and the general amount of upkeep a home has had over the years. I for one have to put on a new roof, fix the chimney, put in a couple ventilation fans and completely redo a bathroom just to get things up to par. The central air and furnace are 17 years old and will have to be replaced anytime and the hardwood floors could also be re finished but will have to wait for a couple years. All this is above and beyond any upgrades I'm having done such as tearing off the brick and adding stone work to both the outside of the house as well as the fireplace and replacing the wood burning with gas.

1.5 k per year on average would be a dream to me. It seems not a lot of maintenance was done in the last 10 years but at least the structure is sound and its in a nice neighbourhood Perhaps after I've done all my work I'll be closer to the 1.5k /year others were discussing.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

We moved into this house April 2010 and we painted it last year and even with my husband doing it himself it still cost us about $1200 as he had to build some scaffolding to reach some parts of the house as we have extra tall ceilings.This year we are doing our front yard landscaping to extend the front step landing put some stone work in and some new flower beds around the front walkway ,budget is around $7,000.My husband has a couple cousins who do this work so we just have to pay for materials and not much else since my husband has done a fair bit of electrical and HVAC for them.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> This is how I do it -
> 
> http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/estimate-budget-home-maintenance-costs/
> 
> I don't know realistic it is to do an annual maintenance amount - the actual costs tend to come in clusters.


I used your spread sheet for my Newfoundland house ,didn't like the numbers as I got $55,000 in expenses over next 2 years to deal with lol.But realistically we will only spend a month a year there for now so learning to prioritize the work.I plan to do a blog on the project before and after just too bad I thought about this idea after we took alot of the stuff out of the house.I still have some smart green carpet in the master bedroom to show off though lol.


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## Tom Dl (Feb 15, 2011)

So if you don't live in a neighbourhood where updating your home is a pointless exercise, then one of the biggest expenses is keeping the home up to date. Replacing basic stuff like the roof, the furnace and such is pretty cheap. I do my own roofing where it isn't too scary, and replacing the main roof, should be a once every 15-25 years thing. But what would really cost a lot would be keeping the whole house up to date. If you bought a new tract home with all the new finishes and flourishes, or even if you have a bit of a retread, keeping it at the date you bought it, actually requires replacing large parts of it every year. I heard one well known financial writer describe maintenance as 10% of the house cost. kinda blew my hair back. But the more I think about it, on a real cost basis, it could be true. Obviously that wouldn't apply if the 750 K of your 1Mg house is just the lot in a major city, what you really have there is a 250K house. But keeping that 250K house up to date could cost something in the order of 25 K a year. If you buy at 30 and vacate at 70, the whole purpose of homes changed in that period. It takes major architectural changes in the structure to keep the home up to date. Giant kitchen, spa bathrooms, ensuites, walk in closets etc... If your home was number one on the block in 1974, you have a lot of work to do to keep it there today. Maybe that doesn't sound like frugality, but then your current car, if you kept pace is a space ship compared to the junk we drove in 1974.


I get by on a few hundred, and do all the work myself.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ihatetaxes said:


> Probably $7-10k per year.
> 
> Cut my own grass (reel mower)!


I like the part that you still believe in being frugal, although it seems that you are living life as a rich man. 

.".if I were a rich man, I would have $3500 chandeliers also.... and a grand staircase leading to nowhere just for show":biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> This year we are doing our front yard landscaping to extend the front step landing put some stone work in and some new flower beds around the front walkway ,budget is around $7,000.


I'm also doing some landscaping in front of my house, replacing old PT 4x4 and 24x30 patio stones that the builder put in 42 years ago. The wood has rotted in places and the patio stones are very slippery in Ottawa winters with the freezing rain we get (which is not as bad as what the GTA got this past winter), but still hazardous to walk on for delivery or the postman, who probably won't be delivering my mail within these next 5 years..anyway..My first quote was from a professional landscaper..with taxes in $5300! Needless to say, he didn't get the job.
I decided to measure the areas and estimated the interlock brick and crush stone dust that the supplier will deliver for an extra charge to my driveway ($600 total) and then hired a couple students, who are in the landscaping business to do all the grunt work..the first estimate from them (labour only) is $500 to $600. A lot cheaper than the pro.

Now, I'm trying to get a deal on paving one-half of a shared driveway, my neighbour who shares the driveway doesn't want to spend any money on her half, so her side will be cracked an uneven, while mine will look almost new.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Maintenance costs ... been mulling this over since the thread appeared. Well, we're not house crazy, or the place is not a showcase undergoing constant upgrading. Maintenance since the addition and refurbish in 1993 includes: replacing 1 electric hot water tank ... started leaking, quick run to Home Depot for a new one, half day to install; and a roofing refurbish including removal of about 3 layers of shingles including the original layer of cedar shakes ... mansard style roof old side, irregular roof new side at ~$16K ... it's a big roof, old side was starting to leak ... and that's about it. There's the time taken for cleaning, yard work, plants, shrubs, snow shoveling ... difficult to put a cost on that. This year though, I'm in the process of refurbishing the upstairs old side of the house ... gut bathroom (done)/reinstall fixtures (to do), patch and paint 4 bedrooms and stair well (in progress), relocate one kitchen ... since it's ground floor and basement is not finished, rerun wiring, relocate cabinets, install plumbing myself. I'm having the upstairs carpet installed, everything else I'm doing myself. My cost for the upstairs refurbish, kitchen relocate ~ $5K of which $3K is the carpet install ... about the carpet ... when you take in boarders, a carpeted, quiet upstairs is a good idea.

I don't put aside funds for maintenance ... it's pay as I go, maintain what I can myself. Just remembered carverman, I'm thinking of doing some landscaping myself ... note, call Greely for topsoil cost.


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## HarrisJ4 (May 1, 2014)

Four Pillars said:


> This is how I do it -
> 
> http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/estimate-budget-home-maintenance-costs/
> 
> I don't know realistic it is to do an annual maintenance amount - the actual costs tend to come in clusters.


I like this because it takes into account the additional variable: current age, life expectancy, remaining life - these are essentially the same variable. 

A simple "average" has no real meaning at all. My average in the last 10 years is probably near 1500/year but last year before a foundation leak it would've been just over half of that.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

rikk said:


> Maintenance since the addition and refurbish in 1993 includes: replacing 1 electric hot water tank ... started leaking, quick run to Home Depot for a new one, half day to install;


You are probably one of the few that own rather then rent a hwt..although the rentals are mostly gas...and the reason..is that most homeowners are not qualified to work on gas appliances..
at least that is what Enbridge tells us.



> ... mansard style roof old side, irregular roof new side at ~$16K ... it's a big roof, old side was starting to leak ... and that's about it.


I'm also replacing a mansard 3 sides (since I own a semi-detached) after 25-30 years, the asphalt shinges are very stained but not curling yet, so I could get another 5 years out of the mansard
part, but it's the poor insulation (friction fit fiberglass batts..some that have come out over the years that is prompting me to redo the mansard roof with new plywood and metal flashing everywhere
around the recessed windows that build up snow in the winter storms, requiring constant cleaning with a broom. It's a cheap to build design. Cost of the new roof + new plywood/flashings about 
$10,800 with taxes. New insulation (2 inch foamboard + 1 inch of Tigerfoam sprayfoam $3000 + a bit of labour to apply the insulation.
If this past winter is any indicator, I expect to get about 10-15% savings on my annual heating bills ($1200 this year so far since November) but that saving ($120-$200) compared to the cost of the new roof + insulation will take 72 years for payback. I won't be around by then, but future owners may appreciate it.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

carverman said:


> You are probably one of the few that own rather then rent a hwt..although the rentals are mostly gas...and the reason..is that most homeowners are not qualified to work on gas appliances..
> at least that is what Enbridge tells us ...


Getting really off topic, but stuck in the recliner waiting for the IV to complete :listening_headphone ... the house is "gas ready" ... (Ts along the line), had that done during the 1993 refurbish that included 2 new high efficiency condensing type gas furnaces ... useful for zoning. Even so, I went electric hot water (2 tanks, one is off right now since no boarders) because gas advertises unlimited hot water ... just what I didn't need with 3 teenagers in the house at the time, and electric is easy for me to repair/replace.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I recently looked up the rules surrounding home owners working in their hwt - I thought I posted it here somewhere in response to cm's replacing a gas valve and being told it was illegal. Its not illegal as long as you get it inspected.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

Addy said:


> I recently looked up the rules surrounding home owners working in their hwt - I thought I posted it here somewhere in response to cm's replacing a gas valve and being told it was illegal. Its not illegal as long as you get it inspected.


I myself would absolutely never play around with a gas line, valve, legal or not ... way outside my comfort zone ... I have cleaned the flame sensor in both furnaces ... probably the greatest cause of a gas furnace failing to stay on ... but that's simply a matter of turning off the power, cleaning the sensor.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Neither would I but I was simply addressing if it was legal or not.



rikk said:


> I myself would absolutely never play around with a gas line, valve, legal or not ... way outside my comfort zone ... I have cleaned the flame sensor in both furnaces ... probably the greatest cause of a gas furnace failing to stay on ... but that's simply a matter of turning off the power, cleaning the sensor.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Addy said:


> I recently looked up the rules surrounding home owners working in their hwt - I thought I posted it here somewhere in response to cm's replacing a gas valve and being told it was illegal. Its not illegal as long as you get it inspected.


No it's not illegal..but finding a replacement gas valve is not that easy. Usually these are parts that are sold in the wholesale HVAC suppliers to qualified gas fitters.
The gas valve is one of the most expensive parts on a gas HWT and usually, it's the thermostat or piezo pilot that fails and gives trouble. 

While it is not "rocket science", it does need a basic knowledge on how gas hwt work, and where to disconnect. I changed out my own gas HWT back in 2000,
and it is still going strong after 14 years. It has the standard pilot that you have to light. The newer GE tanks have piezo start pilot that seem to give more problems
than the older models. Don't know how much longer I will get out of a glass lined 9 year pro-rated tank, but if I have to replace it..and pay for installation labour,
it doesn't own me anything after 14 years of troublefree service. 

By the time you call a gas tech in to replace the gas valve and trouble shoot it, with the service call and labour, you are probably pretty close to half the cost of a new tank. 
If the tank is over 10 years old, it may be more cost effective to just replace the tank that you could buy at H-D, and that you could install yourself..as long as you know 
what your are doing and have it inspected by Enbridge afterwards. If there is any GAS leaks..BOOM!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

rikk said:


> I myself would absolutely never play around with a gas line, valve, legal or not ... way outside my comfort zone ... I have cleaned the flame sensor in both furnaces ... probably the greatest cause of a gas furnace failing to stay on ... but that's simply a matter of turning off the power, cleaning the sensor.


And that is probably the main reason why pretty much all the gas HWT in Ontario are rentals. 
I was looking for cheaper house insurance last month, and a couple of the insurance agents asked me how old the furnace and hwt tank are. 
They are getting a lot stickier on things like that and you never ever mention that you touched furnace or hwt yourself...the fire insurance companies don't want to
hear that from a risk factor.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Back on topic for a moment: Oh my goodness, my kitchen and roof renos are driving me insane...because we keep finding things that should probably be fixed once the fracking house is apart. 

Example 1: the shared chimney with my neighbour. No one is using that chimney, it is 100 years old, and falling apart. Should we take it down? Probably - but unbudgeted! 

Example 2: move the fridge to repair/replace the wall and discover the floor needs repair.

Gah! I know this is par for the course but it is driving me nutso. :tongue-new:


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

carverman said:


> And that is probably the main reason why pretty much all the gas HWT in Ontario are rentals


I thought the reason gas HWT were rentals is because they're constantly failing, hence rental including maintenance contract ... anyway, owned electric HWTs for me for the reasons already posted. Gas furnaces on the other hand have been 100% problem free for me and make sense financially.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

MoneyGal said:


> Example 1: the shared chimney with my neighbour. No one is using that chimney, it is 100 years old, and falling apart. Should we take it down? Probably - but unbudgeted!


Fwiw ... when I had my roof done, I had two unused chimneys ... the upper parts were in bad shape so had them lopped off just below the roof line, and had the roof patched, shingled overtop. If the disrepair is near the top, perhaps you, well ok, your husband, might get by by removing the top part and cap what's left.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

rikk said:


> I thought the reason HWT were rentals is because they're constantly failing, hence rental including maintenance contract ... anyway, owned electric HWTs for me for the reasons already posted. Gas furnaces on the other hand have been 100% problem free for me and make sense financially.


They're rentals because it's a cash cow and the companies don't want to change that. The rest of the country's never heard of such a preposterous idea as renting a HWT. Any new tank is pretty much guaranteed to be trouble free for 10 years. With some basic yearly maintenance, 15 or longer. If you schedule a HWT replacement through a plumbing company, you can get a brand new one installed for maybe $800. If it's an emergency replacement, expect to pay more like $1100.

On the subject of repairs and maintenance...in the past 6 years, we've spent maybe $2000 on repairs in our 60yr old house (a new HWT and control panel for furnace). On upgrades (for looks, efficiency, convenience, safety), we've spent close to $110K.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> Back on topic for a moment: Oh my goodness, my kitchen and roof renos are driving me insane...because we keep finding things that should probably be fixed once the fracking house is apart.
> Example 1: the shared chimney with my neighbour. No one is using that chimney, it is 100 years old, and falling apart. Should we take it down? Probably - but unbudgeted!


Is this the original oil furnace chimney?..and you have converted to a high efficiency gas (exhaust through the basement wall) type?
Does your neighbour that your share this "heating chimney" have an upgrade to the furnace? If not, you have to repair/repoint it. Maybe the neighbour will pay for half?



> Example 2: move the fridge to repair/replace the wall and discover the floor needs repair.


That is usually what happens...you fix or upgrade one thing and then something else is identified that needs attention. I have squeaky parquet floors. Other than driving nails
into the floor tiles on the floor joists, (which are undersize), there is no cheap solution..the power wheel chair rolling over certain areas really identifies that 
the flooring will need attention in the next few years, but one thing at a time.. but this year its the roof, shared driveway and interlock steps.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

yes Carve, the original oil furnace chimney. Both neighbour and I have upgraded to HE gas with basement wall exhaust. 

I opted to take down the chimney as I was able to get my neighbour on the phone and she agreed to take it down - still don't have an estimate of cost but hoping she will agree to half of whatever it is. (She is renovating her garage into an outdoor living space and her reno guys are the same as my reno guys and they have made an *enormous* mess of my back yard in order access her garage...I think she will be OK with paying for half of the chimney removal.)

As I said, I know this is "par for the course" but it makes me crazy. It is very possible I am *too* frugal.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

nobleea said:


> T
> On the subject of repairs and maintenance...in the past 6 years, we've spent maybe $2000 on repairs in our 60yr old house (a new HWT and control panel for furnace). On upgrades (for looks, efficiency, convenience, safety), we've spent close to $110K.


It seems that you have 3 columns for house expenses: Repairs; UPgrades; and Esthetics
For some things, two or 3 columns apply.
Example1: New roof with standard shingles : Repair ; New roof with fancy shingles: Upgrade/Esthetics
Example2: Bathroom toilet/sink/bathtub colour change from 70s (avocado green) to white: Ethetics; Replace bathtub with bathtub jaccuzzi...Upgrade + Esthetics


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

nobleea said:


> They're rentals because it's a cash cow and the companies don't want to change that. The rest of the country's never heard of such a preposterous idea as renting a HWT. Any new tank is pretty much guaranteed to be trouble free for 10 years. With some basic yearly maintenance, 15 or longer. If you schedule a HWT replacement through a plumbing company, you can get a brand new one installed for maybe $800. If it's an emergency replacement, expect to pay more like $1100.


 I installed my own gas hwt (GE smart tank) back in Sept 2000, when I was still able to. Cost me about $500-$600. Self installed and inspected by Enbridge. 
I figure that the savings of NOT renting it over the last (almost) 14 years, will pay for another one and I still have saved at least $2880 (over 14 years).


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MoneyGal said:


> Back on topic for a moment: Oh my goodness, my kitchen and roof renos are driving me insane...because we keep finding things that should probably be fixed once the fracking house is apart.
> 
> Example 1: the shared chimney with my neighbour. No one is using that chimney, it is 100 years old, and falling apart. Should we take it down? Probably - but unbudgeted!
> 
> ...


One thing you might consider is converting your chimney roof exit into a roof vent. I did this when my HE furnace and water heater (both vent through wall) were installed. As an added bonus, because the chimney is 3' high and metal, the venting can't get covered when we get heavy snowfall. If you have the masonary type that goes through the roof you'll need to remove all of it down to the attic "floor".

As for wall/floor repairs, try to do these yourself as most are very easy to do with basic tools. 

Squeaky floors -> search "PL400 squeaky floors" but this depends on current access which sometimes can be done from underneath.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Squeaky floors -> search "PL400 squeaky floors" but this depends on current access which sometimes can be done from underneath.


It could be the subfloor plywood, which might be possibly fixed with the adhesive, but only the area of the floor above the laundry room is exposed joists, the rest is covered with a finished ceiling.

It could be the oak parquet (which is floating on the subfloor), is doing the squeaking. Solution is to install new h/w strip floor, I guess but that's a big expense.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> It could be the subfloor plywood, which might be possibly fixed with the adhesive, but only the area of the floor above the laundry room is exposed joists, the rest is covered with a finished ceiling.


By finished I gather you mean drywall right? 

That's one nice thing about suspended ceilings, you can get access when you need it.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> By finished I gather you mean drywall right?
> 
> That's one nice thing about suspended ceilings, you can get access when you need it.


Yes, the downstairs is fully finished with a drywall ceiling. I am going to try spiral 2 inch nails driven into the parquet at the corners, countersink and then put a oak filler available from H-D.
Sometimes a frugal solution may be required.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

MG,just make sure you don't do something stupid!like talk your husband into taking it down,leave it professionals who have insurance/safety ect
It is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things(roofing accidents happen!)


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Sometimes squeaky floors are a easy fix(if it is one area,often times it is the joint of the factory edge which sits half way on a joist)
screws were not all used(esp pre 90's and below-code)its a nail head that is 'popping'and moving up and down etc 
Carpet....just locate area joist and sink a screws in that way/hard wood same thing and use filler etc
You do the repair from the top side of the floor joist(not underneath)This can be a quick and un-expensive fix(likely no need to rip anything up)


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## Jagas (Feb 11, 2013)

I generally budget about $10K for R&M where one-half of that amount is just for regular house cleaning. I set aside a further amount each year for home improvements but the line blurs between those two categories.
Last year we spent about $11K on R&M and $6K on improvements, the year prior about $8.5K on R&M and $5K on improvements. In successive years our furnace had to be replaced, washer/dryer died, toilet pipes between floor/ceiling decided to no longer contain water/whatever else. I would be very happy to be able to maintain costs at those levels but am budgeting much more for improvements over the next several years. This spring water from outside decided it would rather reside in our basement which may turn into a $30K+ weeping tile issue. I do miss condo life sometimes.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Addy said:


> Neither would I but I was simply addressing if it was legal or not.


And for a licensed HVAC tech to inspect it and put his tag on it will cost about $500 .I am sure if you have a friend of a friend of a friend they may do it for $100 but to get a company with liability insurance in case they blow the house up will cost about that.My brother in law works for the department that investigates 'incidents' and you would not believe how many people get sick from gas leaks and are so lucky to live to tell about it.Just a few months ago a homeowner had severe burns lighting the pilot as there was a serious gas build up and that flash of flame that took probably 2-3 seconds to burn off caused him serious facial burns.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

marina628 said:


> And for a licensed HVAC tech to inspect it and put his tag on it will cost about $500 .I am sure if you have a friend of a friend of a friend they may do it for $100 *but to get a company with liability insurance in case they blow the house up will cost about that.*My brother in law works for the department that investigates 'incidents' and you would not believe how many people get sick from gas leaks and are so lucky to live to tell about it.Just a few months ago a homeowner had severe burns lighting the pilot as there was a serious gas build up and that flash of flame that took probably 2-3 seconds to burn off caused him serious facial burns.


When I installed my own gas hwt, I was told I could do it, if I had the tools and know how, but it still needed to be inspected. Bought the tank at H-D during the period of time back in 2000
when Enbridge was getting out the hwt business..I think it's Direct Energy now that rents them out. I had the pipe wrenches and the pipe thread compound that I got from H-D.
All I had to do was shut off the gas at the shutoff valve for the tank and wait for the pilot to go out. Drain the tank and cut the copper cold/hot lines to move the old tank out, which
Endbridge picked up for free when I called them.

To install the new tank using existing gas pipe and the same kind of tank/gas valve, it was a matter of disconnecting the union and then unscrewing the threaded pipe stub out of the gas valve,
putting pipe thread compound on it again and screwing the pipe back into the new gas valve and disconnection the gas union again. Using soapy water handy, dab some soapy water on all disturbed thread connections, then turning gas valve on... if any bubbles, then that would indicate a gas leak, but in my case no bubbles. Solder up the hot/cold to the fittings on
the tank, fill it with cold water, and then light the burner. The older tanks like I have have a pilot button that you need to press in order for gas to flow to the pilot to light it.

I called Enbridge for an inspection BEFORE lighting the pilot, but they told me they only did random inspections for free, if I wanted a special inspection, it would cost some money
(don't remember how much for the inspector to come out on an emergency basis for a tank/furnace install) and if I felt confident my handiwork was good, to go ahead and
light it. I did with no problems. The inspector came by that week and passed it, but told me to put a installation tag on it that it was self installed. 

I don't know how the home owner encountered a gas flashback, but just like a bbq flashback that can singe your face, it can happen. There are instructions for lighting the pilot..and they do warn that if the pilot doesn't stay lit, to wait ten minutes or so for the gas to dissipate and then try again. Usually if it doesn't stay lit, there is some kind of defect with the
pilot light and at that point, you need to call a gas tech in to troubleshoot. 

However, I am handy (or was) at plumbing, electrical and furnace troubleshooting, so I can go about the task with reasonable confidence, but not everyone out there has the mechanical skills or knowledge, so it could be a serious incident, if done improperly..similar to doing your own electrical wiring.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Hi:

I figure the materials and imputed value of my labour is on the order of $10,000 annually. I don't see this figure ever going lower as all the previous owners were morons and screwed up absolutely everything. So I get to fix things that would never even be on the radar of the other 99 out of 100 homeowners. 

Most recent example is putting down hardwood floors. Easy peasy ... except the subfloor ranged from 1.5 inches low to 1 inch high off of level. I didn't initially find the 1 inch high area because my laser level didn't extend into one room so I just started work on the 85% it could see figuring I was safe. So the areas that were low, I had to put down an array of ribs on 10 inch centres, then hand plane them to finished subfloor height. Yes, that is as fun as it sounds. The high areas I actually had to pull off the sheet material and hack down and/or replace the joists before restoring the subfloor. This part was more miserable than the ribs. Bottom line was that my labour in fixing the subfloor and related inefficiencies applying the flooring meant a job that should have had about a $5K labour component actually had oh probably a $20K or $30K labour component (if I had been paying someone). 

Pure misery at its finest. 1 day not invested 40 years ago in doing things properly turns into 10 days to fix the f ups today.

Then there was the joy of fixing the roof leak because someone decided to go with metal roof (after originally regular shingles) without taking the time to flash the STONE chimney properly. This involved taking off metal, adding a cricket (google it), sheet metal work, masonry work, and finally, much swearing. Oh and I poured a new chimney cap too, just in case it was leaking in there also. Another estimated 5 grand if I had been paying someone. Funny how when I added a wood stove in the shop building, the chimney just happened to be located about 1 foot off the peak such that the chimney flashing piece nicely fit under the peak flashing - no screwing around with trying to seal a hole at some arbitrary place.

I nominate myself as having the worst POS buildings around here, thus the $10K annually pretty much forever. Next up would be putting 4 or 5 inches of foam on the outside, covered with siding of some sort, and likely moving all the windows outward, probably a $50-$70K job. Of coarse the walls wander like the subfloor, so there will be screwing around making the finished surface plumb(ish).

Log houses are a REALLY dumb idea. Trust me.

Still on tap: the barn foundation bows inwards about 4 inches, the wood shed and related retaining walls are shot, new furnace eventually (mostly heat with wood), the electrical panel installed circa 1972 was retrieved from some 1950s era house and kindly placed in my stewardship and on and on.

And other than the actual oak floor, none of this adds one penny to the house value. It is assumed that a roof does not leak and a sub floor is flat and level.

Did I mention that the west side bottom logs are rotting because the oh I don't know $10 worth of 10 mil plastic was not used to isolate the concrete block foundation from the logs? That is not the only factor, one or two others are tag teaming on this problem, but in hindsight a bit of plastic or similar would have been exceedingly cheap insurance.

hboy43


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Hi:
> 
> I figure the materials and imputed value of my labour is on the order of $10,000 annually. I don't see this figure ever going lower as all the previous owners were morons and screwed up absolutely everything. So I get to fix things that would never even be on the radar of the other 99 out of 100 homeowners.


Then it's a good thing they are not self installing their own gas furnaces and hwt. 


> Most recent example is putting down hardwood floors. Easy peasy ... *except the subfloor ranged from 1.5 inches low to 1 inch high off of level.* I didn't initially find the 1 inch high area because my laser level didn't extend into one room so I just started work on the 85% it could see figuring I was safe. So the areas that were low, I had to put down an array of ribs on 10 inch centres, *then hand plane them to finished subfloor height.* The high areas I actually had to pull off the sheet material and hack down and/or replace the joists before restoring the subfloor. This part was more miserable than the ribs. Bottom line was that my labour in fixing the subfloor and related inefficiencies applying the flooring meant a job that should have had about a $5K labour component actually had oh probably a $20K or $30K labour component (if I had been paying someone).


Ran into that problem myself putting down hardwood strip flooring on a friends living/dining room. The house is a row house in a "working class neighbourhood" that was built about 40 years ago by a bunch of cross border (in Ottawa) Quebec labourers that the builder hired on the cheap. They didn't own or believe in using levels..so if you rolled a marble on one end of the floor..it would find its way on its own to another area of the floor. When I pulled the old carpet up..the underpad covered all sorts of construction defects..subfloor was higher in one spot than the rest of the floor. because the sheets were different thickness..5/8 and 3/4" thick. While it was barely noticeable with the thick under pad and carpet..it was very obvious with the strip flooring. I had to chisel and sand down the high area of the seams to match the rest of the floor because it was too hard to pull up the sheet of plywood that wasn't supposed to be used in the first place. I think the labourers that nailed down the floor ran out of the 5/8" and just substituted whatever they could find instead. 
Took me about a day to fix up the subfloor.


> Pure misery at its finest. 1 day not invested 40 years ago in doing things properly turns into 10 days to fix the f ups today.


I got the same issue with my interlock at my place. Got a quote from one interlock contractor for $5100...the next one quoted me $1000 for labour, if I bought the materials. After a week, all the walks and outside steps to my place are still dug up with piles of dirt everywhere, and the critical part in front of my garage was done 3 times by some yahoos he hired on the cheap who claimed they knew how to install interlock, but ended up with a big mess where pools of water collect when it rains (they didn't own a level or know how to use one). Fired the contractor, and now I have hired another experienced contractor to finish the job, but have to wait for 4 weeks because it's the high season for them...sigh!



> I nominate myself as having the worst POS buildings around here, thus the $10K annually pretty much forever. Next up would be putting 4 or 5 inches of foam on the outside, covered with siding of some sort, and likely moving all the windows outward, probably a $50-$70K job. Of coarse the walls wander like the subfloor, so there will be screwing around making the finished surface plumb(ish).
> 
> Log houses are a REALLY dumb idea. Trust me.


But the ads for these log homes show them as being very romantic...a nice fire in the fireplace, a bottle of wine and a couple glasses on the table....no mention how much work it takes to maintain them. 



> Did I mention that the west side bottom logs are rotting because the oh I don't know $10 worth of 10 mil plastic was not used to isolate the concrete block foundation from the logs? That is not the only factor, one or two others are tag teaming on this problem, but in hindsight a bit of plastic or similar would have been exceedingly cheap insurance.
> hboy43


Sounds like another expensive log replacement job coming up in a few years?


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## Tom Dl (Feb 15, 2011)

carverman said:


> Sounds like another expensive log replacement job coming up in a few years?


There are a lot of concept heavy wall systems out there from logs, to SIPS, to timber framing, stone, hay bales. All it takes to carry second story loads with reasonably weights, is a 4x4 every 9 feet and two 2x10s on edge. You are looking at about 3 dollars a foot of wall. Of course unless you like the out of doors, you need to fill in with something, and you need stuff to hang your stuff from, but it is amazing the degree to which people complicate their walls.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

This is an interesting discussion...the only thing I have to add is that over the holiday weekend, with out of town guests visiting, the pipe connecting my water system to the city water system (installed when the house was built 100 years ago and never replaced) failed, so I spent the weekend finding emergency contractors to dig up and replace the disconnected, crumbled clay pipe and replace with whatever the PVC version that's being used today is. (They had to go more than 9 feet deep and at one point halted work until I could find someone else to brace the porch. Digging in sandy soil means lots of small cave-ins.) It all went really well and the price was reasonable, the guys worked over the entire long holiday weekend, but it was an unexpected expense, for sure!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> This is an interesting discussion...the only thing I have to add is that over the holiday weekend, with out of town guests visiting, the pipe connecting my water system to the city water system (installed when the house was built 100 years ago and never replaced) failed, so I spent the weekend finding emergency contractors to dig up and replace the disconnected, crumbled clay pipe and replace with whatever the PVC version that's being used today is. (They had to go more than 9 feet deep and at one point halted work until I could find someone else to brace the porch. Digging in sandy soil means lots of small cave-ins.) It all went really well and the price was reasonable, the guys worked over the entire long holiday weekend, but it was an unexpected expense, for sure!


M.G. I hope you are not living in the older parts of the GTA that have LEAD WATER PIPES...yes lead..the stuff that contaminates your drinking water as it runs through the pipes.
My mother's house in the Danforth/Woodbine area had these lead pipes, which corroded to the point that there was hardly any water pressure to flush a toilet. The water pipes were
replaced at her expense a few years ago (mid 90s) but it is unclear what the main water line is made off. There was a report on TV yesterday about this. 

My mother has set aside a few thousand to have the old clay sewer pipe replaced this year, as it has had some tree roots invade the clay pipes and reduce the flow of sewage.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

No lead pipes here. My husband was up until midnight last night talking to the neighbours about lead pipes and other issues - there are four houses in a row (mine included) that are in the middle of major renovations right now (mine were the most modest at kitchen, roof replacement, and now water pipe replacement). BTW I made concrete countertops in my new kitchen! Cheap and I'm really happy with them.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> so I spent the weekend finding emergency contractors to dig up and replace the disconnected, crumbled clay pipe and replace with whatever the PVC version that's being used today is.


Ha - this happened to us as well. On the day we moved in. Perfect timing!!


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Yeah, at the farmhouse I had to replace the entire septic system as I was in the process of selling the house. Honestly, the pipe thing (I still don't even really know what it is called) was small beans compared to that! (also way less gross)


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

MoneyGal said:


> Yeah, at the farmhouse I had to replace the entire septic system as I was in the process of selling the house. Honestly, the pipe thing (I still don't even really know what it is called) was small beans compared to that! (also way less gross)


Replacing the piping to the water main only cost me around $5K.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

$3K over the past weekend replacing the piping to the water main. The septic system replacement was $15K (20 years ago).


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Now that I think about it - there really isn't any 'good' time for this to happen.

And it's never cheap.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Well on the weekend we talked to one of our neighbors ,they have a mobile home in a seasonal park that shut down in October.He had his cottage winterized and the company did not shut off a sewer value so on Easter weekend when he came up he found sewer inside .He has no chance of using it yet and insurance companies are battling it out ,they already spent $50,000 and counting on the damages and now got lawyers involved.Hope I never have to experience any of that personally.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

MoneyGal said:


> $3K over the past weekend replacing the piping to the water main. The septic system replacement was $15K (20 years ago).


My mom had to run 1 inch copper from the main to the meter. You would NOT Believe the encrusted inside of the lead pipe..it was like seeing a artery full of chlolesterol. No wonder there was
no pressure. I hope that the other people in her area have also removed those dangerous water pipes and replaced with copper. With todays regulations, lead is not allowed in copper solder
wire for plumbing..imagine 80 years of drinking water from lead pipes..its`a wonder more people are not brain dead or even dead from the steady accumulation of lead in their system. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ws_elevated_lead_levels_in_toronto_homes.html


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> My mom had to run 1 inch copper from the main to the meter. You would NOT Believe the encrusted inside of the lead pipe..it was like seeing a artery full of chlolesterol. No wonder there was
> no pressure. I hope that the other people in her area have also removed those dangerous water pipes and replaced with copper. With todays regulations, lead is not allowed in copper solder
> wire for plumbing..imagine 80 years of drinking water from lead pipes..*its`a wonder more people are not brain dead or even dead from the steady accumulation of lead in their system. *
> http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ws_elevated_lead_levels_in_toronto_homes.html


 ... starting from the source ... even you replace the lead piping leading to your house, what about the rest of the city pipings? 

Okay, lead pipe coming out from the water main (city's) is replaced, then the next mile of line is not, then up / down the main street is replaced, then piping going down to your house is not, then you replace the lead pipe going into your house? Does this mean there is still no lead in the water going to your house? Flows like a scam to me ... and I haven't got started about rising property tax to replace "aging" infrastructure ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... starting from the source ... even you replace the lead piping leading to your house, what about the rest of the city pipings?
> 
> Okay, lead pipe coming out from the water main (city's) is replaced, then the next mile of line is not, then up / down the main street is replaced, then piping going down to your house is not, then you replace the lead pipe going into your house? Does this mean there is still no lead in the water going to your house? Flows like a scam to me ... and I haven't got started about rising property tax to replace "aging" infrastructure ...


Not sure if the watermain is lead..if it is then there will be more illness imparted on the unsuspecting people living in Toronto. That's the problem with living in an aging infrastructure that is
going to cost the city HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS.,,MORE LIKE BILLIONs to replace it all. Not going to happen while the mayor is in rehab, or having a good time in a Muskoka cottage.
Perhaps the water works people know the true cost and are saying "Forget'about it!"
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/01/26/porter_gravy_train_cuts_mean_more_lead_in_our_water.html#



> When you turn on your tap, think of a cigarette package.
> Instead of rotting gums and blackened lungs, the images should be of your child’s shrinking brain.
> That’s because many of the city’s old homes are fed water through lead pipes. And lead, ingested continually in even small amounts, has really scary effects on kids.
> Reduced IQ. Attention problems. More violent behaviour.


Bottle water or some of lead removal equipment...Hey Culligan Man..does your water treatment remove dissolved lead?'..Rob Ford wants to know!


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> Not sure if the watermain is lead..if it is then there will be more illness imparted on the unsuspecting people living in Toronto.


Not sure when the cutoff is for each city but I believe the use of lead water mains ended around the 1950's. Yup, if your little pipe to the house is lead there's probably a good chance (unless already replaced) there is a lot more of it upstream. If you're worried, buy a good water filter.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

For lead, I'd imagine you'd need to use a reverse osmosis. But you can try getting the water tested for trace metals.


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## rikk (May 28, 2012)

andrewf said:


> For lead, I'd imagine you'd need to use a reverse osmosis. But you can try getting the water tested for trace metals.


Fwiw, I'm not concerned, but then I've only 67 years of drinking this stuff, and speaking of testing ... Ottawa ... "Over the years, the City has conducted extensive testing of free flowing water samples taken from _Ottawa homes with lead service lines_. Tests consistently indicate that samples are within the safe drinking water standard. Residents in older homes who are concerned about lead levels can contact the City to have their tap water tested. Call 3-1-1 (TTY: 613-580-2401) for more details" ... http://ottawa.ca/en/residents/water-and-environment/drinking-water-and-wells/lead-drinking-water


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

rikk said:


> Fwiw, I'm not concerned, but then I've only 67 years of drinking this stuff, and speaking of testing ... Ottawa ...





> Lead can dissolve into drinking water when it sits for lengthy periods (longer than six hours) in household plumbing that contains lead.


Ottawa isn't too bad..it has probably more dissolved drugs in the water (from treated sewage) than lead.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Ottawa isn't too bad..*it has probably more dissolved drugs in the water (from treated sewage) *than lead.


 ... and you haven't even included radioactive contaminants coming from the lake/local Nukes and god know what else?... just how safe is our tap water? Maybe that's why Rob Ford sticks with his beloved glacier-filtered-vodka instead. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... and you haven't even included radioactive contaminants coming from the lake/local Nukes and god know what else?... just how safe is our tap water? Maybe that's why *Rob Ford sticks with his beloved glacier-filtered-vodka instead.* :biggrin:


Ancient Russian secret. :biggrin: Besides if there was ever a water treatment mishap (or terrorist attack) on Toronto's drinking water...we want the good mayor not to get sick from the water
and get "cracking" on solutions. 

However, more and more people are switching to bottled water (Ive been on it for a few years now)..because you just never know what is in that water..
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs/water-eau/2012-sum_guide-res_recom/index-eng.php#t2


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Considering bottled water could be municipal water, you may be wasting money. 
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/securit/facts-faits/faqs_bottle_water-eau_embouteillee-eng.php#a10


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

bgc_fan said:


> Considering bottled water could be municipal water, you may be wasting money.
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/securit/facts-faits/faqs_bottle_water-eau_embouteillee-eng.php#a10


It depends on who's selling it...it you buy the house brand (Compliments) at Sobey's or Freshco, yes, you are buying ozone treated tap water that is no safer than what comes out of the tap..
but if you look for specific brands of bottled water, for instance ESKA, (source St. Mathieu Esker QC) you can be pretty much assured by the taste that it is pure spring water. It's a dollar or
so more for case than the big grocery chain "tap water", but well worth it. This is what I am drinking and it has very refreshing taste as well.

http://www.eskawater.com/aboutourwater/water_testing.html


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

carverman said:


> It depends on who's selling it...it you buy the house brand (Compliments) at Sobey's or Freshco, yes, you are buying ozone treated tap water that is no safer than what comes out of the tap..
> but if you look for specific brands of bottled water, for instance ESKA, (source St. Mathieu Esker QC) you can be pretty much assured by the taste that it is pure spring water. It's a dollar or
> so more for case than the big grocery chain "tap water", but well worth it. This is what I am drinking and it has very refreshing taste as well.
> 
> http://www.eskawater.com/aboutourwater/water_testing.html


Yes, that's why you have to look for spring, or mineral source. Otherwise it's just tap water.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Ancient Russian secret. :biggrin: Besides if there was ever a water treatment mishap (or terrorist attack) on Toronto's drinking water...we want the good mayor not to get sick from the water
> and get "cracking" on solutions.
> 
> However, more and more people are switching to bottled water (Ive been on it for a few years now)..because *you just never know what is in that water*..
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs/water-eau/2012-sum_guide-res_recom/index-eng.php#t2


 ... our public health claims it's all "safe" and "flouridated" (not sure if still is though) - great for young growing teeths. ositive: 

Actually, we shouldn't be complaining when compared to other non-industrial or other industrial highly polluted countries.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ..
> 
> Actually, we shouldn't be complaining when compared to other non-industrial or other industrial highly polluted countries.


Not complaining about the purification..but with so many women on birth control, those hormones find their way into the water..as the treated sewage is released into the rivers and lakes.
Filtration does not remove traces of drugs and hormones. Now for the female component of the population, it probably doesn't matter but... I for one,
don't want to have to go and get fitted for a bra because of the hormones in the drinking water. ..so I would not drink the water in those pipes. 



> With such contaminants proving elusive to municipal filtration systems, the burden of protection often lies with the end user. But getting traces of birth control and other drugs out of your tap water isn’t so easy. Of the many different kinds of in-home water filtration systems available today, only those employing reverse osmosis have been shown to filter out some drugs. Some makers of activated carbon water filters claim their products catch pharmaceuticals, but independent research has not verified such claims.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> Not complaining about the purification..but with so many women on birth control, those hormones find their way into the water..as the treated sewage is released into the rivers and lakes.
> Filtration does not remove traces of drugs and hormones. Now for the female component of the population, it probably doesn't matter but... I for one,
> don't want to have to go and get fitted for a bra because of the hormones in the drinking water. ..so I would not drink the water in those pipes.


The pill has been around for how long now? a couple generations. The ratio of men to women hasn't changed. And the amount of hormones in the pills has decreased over time. I don't see an epidemic of he-she's or super effeminate males right now. If there was going to be one, it would have peaked a decade or two ago.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Not complaining about the purification..but with so many women on birth control, those hormones find their way into the water..as the treated sewage is released into the rivers and lakes.
> Filtration does not remove traces of drugs and hormones. Now for the female component of the population, it probably doesn't matter but... I for one,
> don't want to have to go and get fitted for a bra because of the hormones in the drinking water. ..so I would not drink the water in those pipes.


 ... I meant, not complaining about the quality (and abundance) of our water for "external" use, not ingestion. 

I agree bottled (spring sourced) water is the way to go to avoid all the nasty god-knows-what-junk (lead, bleach chemicals, hormones, radioactive particles, bacteria, fungi, etc., etc.) in our "tap" water.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> Not complaining about the purification..but with so many women on birth control, those hormones find their way into the water..as the treated sewage is released into the rivers and lakes.


Hey .. stop that ... I almost spewed coffee over my monitor when I read that. 

You know fish do "all sorts of things" in rivers and lakes, also wild animals put "untreated sewage" directly in there as well. So if you start growing gills or antlers, well, you know who to blame.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Then you have this situation. I'm really sure that the urinating teenager's contribution outweighs the natural contribution that you'd get in an OPEN reservoir, i.e. dead animals are found all the time there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-because-of-a-urinating-teenager/?tid=pm_pop


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Hey .. stop that ... I almost spewed coffee over my monitor when I read that.
> 
> You know fish do "all sorts of things" in rivers and lakes, also wild animals put "untreated sewage" directly in there as well. So if you start growing gills or antlers, well, you know who to blame.


Hey lets not joke about artificial hormones released into the waters from effluent released from sewage plants..it's gotta go somewhere. Yes, and fish do defecate in these waters too.and there
is the occasional dead animal or human body that is found floating..but the purifiers in the water treament usally take care of that nasty (Walkerton) E-Coli stuff.

I'm not too concerned about growing gills..after all I could change my CMF persona to "aquaman" instead of "carverman". :biggrin:..BUT...I would be concerned if I woke up some morning with two large protruberances that wern't there before..so I'm sticking to bottled water..I got enough problems as it is. 

Here it is straight from the mare's mouth..
http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/artificial-progestins-affect-fish-reproduction


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> I would be concerned if I woke up some morning with two large protruberances that wern't there before..so I'm sticking to bottled water..I got enough problems as it is.


I wouldn't but some might consider that a win-win situation. 

On a slightly more serious note, I've been drinking straight up from the tap for a very long time along with many, many others I know ... no related issues so far. We probably do have fairly good water in Manitoba when compared to other locations. I do use brita for making coffee/tea and out on the go with a brita squeeze bottle.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> I wouldn't but some might consider that a win-win situation.
> 
> On a slightly more serious note, I've been drinking straight up from the tap for a very long time along with many, many others I know ... no related issues so far. We probably do have fairly good water in Manitoba when compared to other locations. I do use brita for making coffee/tea and out on the go with a brita squeeze bottle.


Ok, you can't compare the population density of Manitoba with several hundred thousand square miles for each citizen. I can see why you wouldn't be too concerned...your out in "God's
Country" as they say...but here in Ontario, especially the GTA is the highest population density in the whole country...lots of sewage..and lots of stuff finding it's way back into the rivers
and streams. Maybe the fish are more sensitive to this, but who knows what happens when we drink this stuff.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

back to the original topic- I run a spreadsheet that lists the 'material expenses' i.e. more than $400 and project those cost forward, with an inflation factor applied, to the expected lift span of the plant.

ie, we replaced the roof in 2006, and anticipate that it should last 20 years, so in 20 years past 2006 we will be up for roof plus 20 yrs inflation cash outlay likely.

So far I track: roof, furnace, air conditioning, water heater, heat recovery ventilator, windows, doors, garage door, major plumbing fixtures, fridge, stove, dishwasher, washer and clothes dryer. Some of the replacement intervals are played with to smooth the projected future expenses cash flows. I also track age of our vehicles and projected replacement intervals to try to plan replacements so they don't land on the same year. 
For instance I don't want to have a result that the furnace being 28 years old and never replaced earlier, but I am driving a newer car than last year.

Smoothing is not too important now. We have a good dual income cash flow, so big gulps of house maintenance can be accommodated, and the RRSP top up applied in the following year, for example 
It will be more important in retirement, which we are aiming for to happen sooner rather than later.

The rest of the stuff we do is just cosmetic. I would like a newer kitchen , which is not a cost to sneeze at, but there is nothing in the present kitchen that prevents our family preparing healthy meals in it.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

You're talking to a licenced electrical contractors wife here marina, no need to sell me on using professionals.  I agree 100% with you. But like I said, I was simply addressing someone's concern if it was legal or not, nothing more, nothing less.



marina628 said:


> And for a licensed HVAC tech to inspect it and put his tag on it will cost about $500 .I am sure if you have a friend of a friend of a friend they may do it for $100 but to get a company with liability insurance in case they blow the house up will cost about that.My brother in law works for the department that investigates 'incidents' and you would not believe how many people get sick from gas leaks and are so lucky to live to tell about it.Just a few months ago a homeowner had severe burns lighting the pilot as there was a serious gas build up and that flash of flame that took probably 2-3 seconds to burn off caused him serious facial burns.


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## OurBigFatWallet (Jan 20, 2014)

I moved into a new house almost two years ago so maintenance has been low so far but I know it will go up eventually. Trying to predict what the annual amount will be is tough. I'm hoping for $3k per year, eventually going up over time, but of course that can change if anything major comes up


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## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

So many "projects" this year for my 1976 house I bought in 2012:
Amount including taxes

- Roof shringles $7k (was changed 2002)
- Gutters $1.5k (original 1976 maybe? no idea)
- Electric panel change and upgrade from 150A to 200A: $1.5k (original 1976 I would think)
- HVAC unit replacement: $4k net of Quebec gov. programs (approximate, not done yet, was added in 2012)

I can confirm I did not have $14k aside this year for maintenance.

I did expect Roof to last more than 14 years and the HVAC unit to last more than 4 years.

In my budget I used to have around $3,500 per year planned for maintenance. I now updated it to $5,000 considering future maintenance projects I planned, such as plumbing work.

I did not spend much in 2013-2014-2015, so it balances out I guess...

I have a "fun" project for next year: pool heat pump. Will see, since 2015 "projects" took money planned for that project.


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## CalgaryPotato (Mar 7, 2015)

Wow, some of you have been really lucky with how little you've paid in maintenance over time.

In 14 years, new room, replaced deck, repainted various parts of the house, redid both bathrooms, new hot water heater, new kitchen counter tops, fixed garage door, flood repairs, plus a million minor things I'm missing. And that doesn't include upgrading appliances. 

A lot of it was do it ourselves work, but it's still about $5000/year if I added it all up. Would be way more than that if we were paying for it all to be done.

I always tell people that home ownership is expensive and a part time job.

Also I don't know about the whole amortization assumptions thing, you never know what is going to go when. It seems like a lot of work to try and over complicate budgeting. Your furnace might last for 50 years, but your hot water heater might leak years before you expect it to go, causing excess damage (both are true for me)


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

We tend to replace things before they cause damage **knocking-on-wood**

Since we moved in, major capital expenditures include new hot water tank, new metal roof (price of a small new car), and we recently updated our old ensuite master bathroom.

Probably spent $50k so far over 6 years. 

Going-forward we budget about $6k per year. That works out to ~1% of the house value.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

Definitely some wild differences in these numbers, and maybe luck of some people. Some people might be including different things in 'maintenance'. Redoing bathrooms, new countertops, etc...maybe a portion of it is maintenance, but I would guess people will always upgrade when redoing something so that it's a better finish afterwards.

Over about 9 years, we spent close to 130K on our old house, about 14K a year. However, that is a complete gut job with new everything. Siding, insulation, windows, flooring, kitchen, appliances, garage, furnace, hwt, bathroom, etc etc.

In our new house, which is a brand new custom build, I have set up a savings fund and contribute 250$ a month. This is for capital maintenance, not things like rotorooting the plumbing, cleaning the ducts, etc, which is an expense. Since everything is new and comes with a warranty, I can be reasonably confident that I won't be out of pocket on any infantile failures for maybe 3 years. At that point, I'd have over 9K saved which will cover any emergency fix necessary. I have ammortized out all capital replacements (hvac, hwt, siding, roofing, windows, appliances, flooring, cabinets, flatwork, etc etc) along with an expected life. Some things will last longer, others shorter, but it's highly unlikely i'll be underwater at some point. $250 a month equates to 0.5% of the house value per year. I say house value as it should not include the lot value. Identical houses on different lots (one a postage sized suburb lot, the other an estate lot in the city with a river view) should have close to the same repairs outside of landscaping thigns.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

nobleea said:


> Over about 9 years, we spent close to 130K on our old house, about 14K a year. However, that is a complete gut job with new everything. Siding, insulation, windows, flooring, kitchen, appliances, garage, furnace, hwt, bathroom, etc etc.


That was a lot of expenditure on an old house. How long did you live in it, about 9 yrs? 
Did you get at least some of that back ikn resale value when you sold it, besides the normal appreciation of real estate?


> In our new house, which is a brand new custom build, I have set up a savings fund and contribute 250$ a month. This is for capital maintenance. Since everything is new and comes with a warranty, I can be reasonably confident that I won't be out of pocket on any infantile failures for maybe 3 years. At that point, I'd have over 9K saved which will cover any emergency fix necessary. $250 a month equates to 0.5% of the house value per year.


Sounds like a bit of overkill on the savings for a new house, if that is what you own now. Most things like furnace/AC will last at least 15 years, but may require periodic maintenance.
The rest of the house should last for many years, that is unless you want to do renovations again.
Do you really need to save $3000 a year for 3 years while the house is new? 
Most roofs last at least 20 years.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

I allocate 5% of my pay cheque, after taxes, to home repair and reno's. Due to my salary varying so much in the past, this number fluctuated from 2-3k a year. Big temporary pay cut with the new job, so I'm looking at about 1.6k a year and in a couple years will bump up to about 2.8k after taxes. 

I have a 10 year old house that has required minimal maintenance since ownership. I have painted some rooms, and done some minor things here and there. I have about at 6.5k slush fund right now -- but I anticipate that being depleted rather quickly once I begin finishing the basement in the next year or two.


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## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

Maintenance does not equal Renovation/Improvement in my books.

For example, finishing basement is not maintenance.

Moreover, in my case, adding equipment next year for heating the pool is not maintenance...

____

Saving money for future expenses? Sure why not, but I prefer to have most of my money invested to max out TFSA-RRSP-RESP.

I want to have a couple of k in "emergency" savings, but nothing excessive. I used to keep too much on the sidelines.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

cashinstinct said:


> Maintenance does not equal Renovation/Improvement in my books.
> 
> For example, finishing basement is not maintenance.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. However, we'll soon have TFSA, RRSP, and RESP maxed out, and the maintenance/repairs will be over and above that. Given the long timeline expected since it's a brand new house, it will all be invested as well similarly to the registered funds. It can act as an emergency fund (though I can think of no emergency where it would be needed), or early retirement if we end up not needing to do the expected repairs.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

carverman said:


> That was a lot of expenditure on an old house. How long did you live in it, about 9 yrs?
> Did you get at least some of that back ikn resale value when you sold it, besides the normal appreciation of real estate?


It was a complete reno, very little of it would be called maintenance. Yes, we lived in it for 9 years. I was just commenting that some people seem to spend/allocate 5K just for maintenance, yet for 9K more, you get a brand new, completely redone house. I think 5K a year is high on a regular basis.

We would have broken even on the house. Sale price was slightly more than purchase price+reno costs. That required a fair amount of DIY. If we had paid someone to do everything, for sure we would have lost money.


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## 1980z28 (Mar 4, 2010)

For me i go about 7% and i wish it could be more


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## cashinstinct (Apr 4, 2009)

Considering your house price, $250 a month is about nothing 

Anyway, money is fungible. Money I had saved for investment can end up being used for house maintenance or vice verca.


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## Earl (Apr 5, 2016)

A lot of those things are not maintenance. I define maintenance as something that HAS to be done. Renovating a bathroom is a want not a need, there's no law that says you can't crap in a 1960s bathroom or cook in a 1960s kitchen, assuming it's still functional.


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