# Plastic grocery bags



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

At the supermarket yesterday, I made a point of looking to see how many people were using re-usable grocery bags that they brought with them and how many were answering 'yes' when asked by the check-out clerk if they needed bags and using store provided plastic bags. Sorry to say, most by far were using plastic bags. It did not seem to occur to anyone to ask themselves WHY they were being asked if they needed plastic bags. It is in fact intended to be a 'gentle reminder' that you could bring your own bags. A gentle reminder that perhaps some little bit of guilt should be felt when not bringing your own bags and instead, contributing to plastic in landfill sites.

PEI has just stopped their use in their Province. Hopefully, the rest of the country will not be that far behind.

Some of the numbers involved are just staggering to contemplate. Like 1,000,000 plastic bags handed out worldwide every MINUTE.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/graphic-details-reusable-bags/article20401076/

We use these collapsible 'bins'. Not only do you avoid plastic bags, they are far easier to load and unload your groceries from. They sit open like a box and I cannot emphasis too much just how much easier they are to use.
https://www.realcanadiansuperstore....ble-Bags/Collapsible-Bin,-Small/p/20415594_EA


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

^The first article you posted is from 2007. I would be interested in knowing if these numbers have decreased since a lot of provinces started charging for plastic bags. Though we always tried to bring our own bags, I was not perfect with this (I would say >95% of the time though). When they started charging in my province, I became even more vigilant about always having re-useable bags with me. I even had them in the little emergency size in my purse and glove compartment. 

It is interesting to see how many people still use plastic bags. It is something I have observed and I have found different stores seem to be very different in terms of their clientele. I found in our discount grocery store (Lowlaws) seems to have many more using reusable bags. At the mid-range store (Sobey's/Safeway) people use a lot more of the bags. I notice at the Sobey's where people tend shop for a few items, most likely last minute, or' something they need to run out for', they will use bags if it's more than 2 or 3 items. This isn't the same at the express line at Lowlaws. Then at the high end grocers, and niche places, customers usually bring their own bags or I will see them buy a reusable one. Of course at the farmers markets and organic places, every one has their own bags. 

The biggest 'culprits' I see are those who seem to be right in the 'middle'. The more frugal shoppers don't want to pay for the bags and seem to plan out their trip, the most expensive places, the patrons are willing to pay more for their groceries but are more environmentally conscious with their bags. I wonder what will motivate this middle group.

This is something we have been thinking about a lot this year. My youngest child did quite a bit in school for the regarding environmental problems. Plastics (in general) have been a huge problem, and she has been trying to figure out ways on how to reduce plastics in this world especially in first world countries.


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## kelaa (Apr 5, 2016)

Reducing the overuse of plastic bags is a good goal. But it is a lot more complex than to equate every bag reduced at the grocery store as a net win. We for instance line our kitchen and bathroom garbage pails with shopping bags. There are other people who use them as doggie bags, etc. So if you still have to buy those, that reduces much of the benefit. 

If you go with a sturdier bag, you have to use it a sufficient number of times before there is any net gain. Keep in mind that a regular plastic bag has a fraction of the material of a sturdier tote. How many times do you want to carry dripping seafood / meats in your reusable bag? Okay, you can wash them, but that requires water, detergent, energy, which eats away at your net gain.

See for instance cotton tote vs plastic bag: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pape...te-bag-environment_n_5cd4792ae4b0796a95d88b5f

This UK study places the breakeven point for CO2 impact at 14 reuses for the common PP reusable bags and 173 reuses for cotton bags: https://terngoods.com/blogs/learn/reusable-vs-disposable-bags-whats-better-for-the-environment


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

We like those cloth "box" bags; they're easy to carry, and fold up nicely. We have a stack of them in the trunk of the car along with insulated bags for frozen stuff, and large hard plastic bins. Unfortunately, we still need to use the singe-use bags for meat and veggies that we don't want to cross-contaminate ( you really don't want chicken blood dripping on your strawberries! ); but for the most part we never take any bags from the grocery. Costco provides bags for that purpose that they claim are bio-degradable, so there's that.

I do think we also use way too much plastic packaging for products. I hate having to throw it away, but there's not much re-use possibilities for most of it. Styrofoam is the worst - especially the stuff that easily crumbles into tiny beads that stick to your body. I want to scream when I open a box and find that stuff.

I doubt that we can eliminate plastic altogether, but what did we use before plastic, and can we go back to that? What else could fast-food restaurants provide for cutlery? I can't picture McDonalds putting out the fine silverware - so recycled wood maybe?

I still am a bit baffled, though, as to how a drinking straw that I put in the garbage finds it's way to a beach somewhere else in the world. I trusted that it was taken and buried deep in the local landfill - not the best solution, for sure, but I thought it would spend eternity in that place. Nevertheless, for the infrequent times where a straw is the best way to enjoy a drink, we have re-useable hard plastic straws.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

What started as a research project for my youngest has become a family challenge. I didn't realize how much packaging and single use stuff we have as a family. We haven't been militant about things, but have been trying to 'get better'. Some of things we are trying to do to reduce the plastics are the following:

- Not ask for any bags at the grocery store, I saw the link posted above, I can say easily we use our bags hundreds of times. I have been finding that even there as some are getting really worn and gross. I am looking for replacements that aren't plastic. 
- Where it's just a few items, I have tried not to get those little produce bags at all, but its a challenge. I do find Costco has the biodegradable, so I use those when we are there, and then we use those ones to line our compost bin
- the other plastic produce bags, we try and save if in good shape, and then I bring them out to camps with my girl guides. Plastic produce and breadbags on are on the packing list for when the weather is wet. We use them as liners for shoes. So not perfect, but at least they are getting reused. 
- Straws - this has absolutely baffled us. We have invested in stainless steel straws and carry them around. I have a family set it in each vehicle, my purse and my office now. We tell every place 'No straw please' 

The amount of packaging on items is staggering. From little baskets of berries to pretty much everything else packaged. I have been trying to find ways to reduce this waste but have not been so successful. I sometime bring little plastic containers to the farmer markets and ask if I can transfer the fruit, but I ask if they will reuse their container (usually yes). I have also started shopping a zero waste store for some of my items. They just opened in my city, they are a little expensive, but I think they are doing a good thing, so will put my money to help get them started. 
https://www.canarygoods.ca/

I don't know if what I am doing is making a difference, but we are trying not to make things any worst.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

I almost never use plastic bags, maybe 1 out of 500 times in the store. I just carry the items as I make more frequent trips or have them in a cart with no bags direct to the car. 

What surprises me is these bags are not allowed in our recycle bins ...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

what a great thread

every single post has at least one terrific idea

efforts might seem discouragingly small at first but every effort made & reported ^^ has a ripple effect. Who knows how many hundreds of folks will see & copy.

remember how north america got to stop smoking. It took decades. Little tiny baby steps in every direction, year after year, all of the time. Now there's so much disapproval i haven't seen anybody pull out a pack of cigarettes in months.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> I almost never use plastic bags, maybe 1 out of 500 times in the store. I just carry the items as I make more frequent trips or have them in a cart with no bags direct to the car.
> 
> *What surprises me is these bags are not allowed in our recycle bins *...


Do you mean that the plastic grocery bags are not allowed in the bin or the reusuable? 


In my municipality, you can recycle the grocery bags, but need to put them all together in a one of the clear produce bags. You can also put in little pieces of the plastic wrappers (not the crunchy ones). For the re-usuable ones, unless they have a recycle code on the bottom, they cannot be recycled, hence why I am looking for different ones when these wear out. You can take the cotton ones, and throw them in the composter. 


We are starting to look at our clothing choices too, as we (well my daughter) learned that clothing waste is becoming a big problem too. The cheaper, synthetic materials are not biodegradable. Many of the large charities that we used to donate to don't keep them locally, but instead ship them to other countries. It seemed like a good idea until I found out in those countries, only the nicest and brand name were being kept, over 80% was being thrown in over seas landfills, or being burned. Instead, we have been trying to buy less, and what we do have, we have found families/charities that will use what we donate. We have started asking what do they do with the items that they will not use. For the people we have a personal connection with, they will try and pass it on, and ask similar questions, for the charities, they will pass on to other charities too. Over the last couple of years, we have had to take more time in sorting through our items that we donate, and been more thoughtful in terms of which charities can best use them. It takes us more time, and space (my house feels like a messy staging area), but I think as a result, less of our stuff is ending up in the landfills.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

cainvest said:


> What surprises me is these bags are not allowed in our recycle bins ...


They need to be made from recyclable plastic and maybe that needs to be legislated*. Other plastics not recyclable locally include garbage bags of all types. The chemical compounds are important. One could be forgiven for not knowing what is acceptable. Few people I know even look at our list https://www.regionaldistrict.com/yo...cycling/what-goes-in-your-recycling-cart.aspx and I can't even remember some of them.

Our recycling contractor is complaining about the percentage of non-recyclable stuff that contaminates our blue bins. It is way beyond contractual limits so now the municipalities are sending bylaw officers around to snoop in residential blue bins and issuing either warnings or fines. Clearly the size of municipality matters and Calgary, for example, takes a lot more products because they have a sophisticated automated sorting system.

Municipalities may have to start doubling or tripling monthly garbage collection fees on utility bills to make the system way more productive and efficient. I'd go along with that.

* Hawaii has banned single use plastic bags for some time. People there either have to use paper bags provided by the store, or use re-usable plastic bins or the cloth re-usable bags. When we go there for 3-4 weeks in winter, we will buy 3-5 of the re-usable cloth bags and when we leave, we will leave them in the condo/villa, etc. A small cost to do the right thing.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

To get back to the OP, and plastic bags (in case he gets upset with the derail). For those who do forget and get a plastic grocery bag (not the produce bag), if you save them up, most food banks need them. The best way to save them is to d smooth them out nicely, fold them, and put them in a larger bag. They really appreciate them prefolded (not tied up) and somewhat smooth. Smaller food banks are in greater need. 
They also say the dollar store ones are awful. The quality isn't there, the people that use the food bank cant get their parcels home. This also applies if there reusuable ones that you don't want, but are still in good condition. We give all of our promotion ones away because we get so many.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

I have re-usable bags but sometimes will buy a plastic bag for 5¢ because they have several uses other than groceries and I will use them several times...basically until they are unusable. When they finally get worn out and ready to toss I use them one last time to wrap meat so that it doesn't leak on the other groceries, or to temporarily wrap a paint brush so it doesn't dry out, or my GD puts them on her feet when gardening in the mud.

My GF also uses the thin clear bags that you buy buns/bulk items to dispose of cat litter.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> Do you mean that the plastic grocery bags are not allowed in the bin or the reusuable?


The plastic grocery bags are not allowed in our "blue recycle bins" at home.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> * Hawaii has banned single use plastic bags for some time. People there either have to use paper bags provided by the store, or use re-usable plastic bins or the cloth re-usable bags. When we go there for 3-4 weeks in winter, we will buy 3-5 of the re-usable cloth bags and when we leave, we will leave them in the condo/villa, etc. A small cost to do the right thing.


Single use plastic bags is a terribly inaccurate phrase and not a reflection of reality. Virtually everyone I know reuses plastic bags and no one throws them out.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Userkare said:


> We like those cloth "box" bags; they're easy to carry, and fold up nicely. We have a stack of them in the trunk of the car along with insulated bags for frozen stuff, and large hard plastic bins. Unfortunately, we still need to use the singe-use bags for meat and veggies that we don't want to cross-contaminate ( you really don't want chicken blood dripping on your strawberries! ); but for the most part we never take any bags from the grocery. Costco provides bags for that purpose that they claim are bio-degradable, so there's that.
> 
> I do think we also use way too much plastic packaging for products. I hate having to throw it away, but there's not much re-use possibilities for most of it. Styrofoam is the worst - especially the stuff that easily crumbles into tiny beads that stick to your body. I want to scream when I open a box and find that stuff.
> 
> ...


My employers cafeteria uses paperboard plates, takeout containers, and condiment cups. The disposable cutlery is made from plant starch but looks a lot like plastic. Cups are some sort of clear biodegradable plastic. All of it is green binnable. Of course they also have reusable plates, cups, bowls, glasses and cutlery. 

The alternatives are out there.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> The plastic grocery bags are not allowed in our "blue recycle bins" at home.


Oh that's too bad. They are allowed in ours but need to be put together. I would say save the for the food bank then.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Prairie Guy said:


> Single use plastic bags is a terribly inaccurate phrase and not a reflection of reality. Virtually everyone I know reuses plastic bags and no one throws them out.


They are from an industry/commercial/retail perspective. Let's not get picky since we have alternative uses for a lot of things. In our house, for example, spouse thinks kitchen table knives are flat screwdrivers sometimes.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> They are from an industry/commercial/retail perspective. Let's not get picky since we have alternative uses for a lot of things. In our house, for example, spouse thinks kitchen table knives are flat screwdrivers sometimes.


I'm not being picky...I'm being factual. People with agendas always have to twist the words to prove their point. Plastic bags are now single use plastic bags. Illegal aliens are now undocumented immigrants. Global warming is now climate change. Center politically is now alt-right. And so on.

And none of that has anything to do with your spouse using a knife as a screwdriver.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Well, many plastic bags are now indeed single use plastic bags. No recycler will take most of them, i.e. the cheap ones retailers foist on us at the cashier. That could change with a requirement to use a different recyclable compound and they might cost 25 cents each, e.g. including a 10 cent deposit for recyclable returns like aluminum beverage cans and plastic water bottles. There are many ways to truly 'fix' the problem.

Added: We rarely accept or receive any of those cashier type plastic bags. The odd time when we have spontaneously shopped and are nowhere near our vehicle.

A bigger issue for us is the 'kitchen catchers' for wet waste. Not many are bio-degradrable and even those that are, apparently still seem to end up being fine plastic particulate in landfills.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

We have not used much other than cardboard boxes for carrying groceries, etc. since moving off-grid and travelling by our own boat for all shopping trips. A bunch of plastic bags slopping around and spilling their contents all over the deck is less than ideal. Boxes are easy to handle and they stack well. We have a handful of different size boxes we take on each trip. Sometimes we get lazy and do not pack with us the ones used on a previous trip. Stores will usually furnish boxes (apple boxes, banana boxes, etc.) on request. When our supply starts to exceed our demand, we flatten some and toss them in cardboard recycling bins found in most places that accumulate boxes. Or tear them up and use them to light the furnace in winter.

Living where and as we do, we are very mindful of garbage, packaging issues, etc. No garbage pickup or recycling for miles. Any junk we pack in to our home has to be packed out, except what can reasonably be burned.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Well, many plastic bags are now indeed single use plastic bags. No recycler will take most of them, i.e. the cheap ones retailers foist on us at the cashier.


Take them home and use them as garbage bags. Garbage bags are single use too but they've somehow manage to escape the wrath


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Can't use the cashier cheapie for wet waste. They leak. In any event, we don't collect more than a few cashier type plastic bags per month.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> Can't use the cashier cheapie for wet waste. They leak. In any event, we don't collect more than a few cashier type plastic bags per month.


I reuse store bags dozens of times but you're right that they leak. They're fine for light and dry items and you can't carry too much weight in them. If you don't abuse them they can be used dozens of times and when they're worn out they're used one last time for wrapping up meat or some other messy task.

I also have several reusable bags.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

This whole plastics discussion is not going to end the way people think. Plastic bags, once banned, will be replaced by a whole series of almost certainly less efficient and more costly options that will virtually certainly result in more energy consumption. It hasn't been seen yet but at scale, you could see vast amounts of increased organic consumption represented by increasing deforestation or re-purposed farming. This is a scientific and economic certainty - plastic bags and packaging are the cheapest, most efficient, and food-safest form of packaging available. Everything else I have seen is heavier, less efficient, and requires more energy, usually at a order of magnitude (>x10) level. But, whatever makes people feel good. It's easier than making real choices to save the environment, like giving up air travel and your vehicle, electric or not.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think the issue is not one of efficiency and effectiveness. It is that these bloody plastic things being forever in the environment, never deteriorating. We can't keep throwing these things (and a myriad of other plastic waste) into our lakes, forests, and oceans. What we might need is a requirement to use a fully recyclable plastic that has a deposit on them, enticing folk to return them to recycling for money back.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

doctrine said:


> This whole plastics discussion is not going to end the way people think. Plastic bags, once banned, will be replaced by a whole series of almost certainly less efficient and more costly options that will virtually certainly result in more energy consumption. It hasn't been seen yet but at scale, you could see vast amounts of increased organic consumption represented by increasing deforestation or re-purposed farming. This is a scientific and economic certainty - plastic bags and packaging are the cheapest, most efficient, and food-safest form of packaging available. Everything else I have seen is heavier, less efficient, and requires more energy, usually at a order of magnitude (>x10) level. But, whatever makes people feel good. It's easier than making real choices to save the environment, like giving up air travel and your vehicle, electric or not.



well said!....i like watching people come out of stores with their sustainable, eco-friendly bags, then turn on their cars, and sit there for 10-15 min. with cars running, while they check their phones for messages or any earth-shattering news that might have happened while they were in the store...
or fast food joints banning straws or whatever while there are cars lined up burning gas idling in their drive-thrus 24/7....
multiply that by 5-6 stops a day times millions of drivers, and what've you got? alot o' climate change ...lol

if they can make hamburgers from plants (and stll call'em burgers!), surely someone'll invent a good cheap plastic-like bag that'll disintegrate into something enviro-friendly in a short time, dontcha think?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Ontario is looking at bans and also things like shifting responsibility back on to the producers.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5040533/ontario-government-plastics-ban/

Another way to signal your position on plastic is to shift the responsibility onto the retailer at the point of purchase by removing packaging at the check-out. I haven't seen anyone doing this in a supermarket here yet but it seems to be happening quite a bit elsewhere.
https://www.google.com/search?q=rem....69i57j33l2.7282j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I like the thought of this idea as often, the packaging is designed for the benefit of the retailer, not the consumer. For example, berries often come in one of those clear plastic packages with the flip over lid. Much easier for the retailer to deal with than say the open green hard paper berry containers that used to be the norm and are now rarely seen other than at roadside farmer's stands. Leaving plastic at the end of the check-out for the store to deal with sends a pretty clear message I would say. But that kind of 'in your face' protest may be more than many people are willing to do.

My wife will not buy if at all possible, any kind of vegetable in plastic. You can buy loose carrots, potatoes,etc. rather than those in a plastic bag. Nor does she then put them in those 'tear off the roll' plastic bags either. Does anyone remember when the vegetable aisles had paper bags to put your vegetables in rather than the plastic bags? My wife goes to the loose mushroom area where there are still paper bags provided (mushrooms have to be kept 'in the dark' and so no clear plastic bags for them). She takes a stack of those paper bags and puts all her loose vegetable in those paper bags. 

I think that consumers have far more power over what supermarkets do than the government have. Letting supermarkets know that what may be convenient for them is not going to work, by removing plastic at the till and leaving it for them to dispose off or insisting on paper bags instead sends a clear message to them. I am tempted to put 5 pounds of loose potatoes onto the check-out conveyer belt and see how the check-out clerk reacts. Picture it! That may again be a step to far for most people, but why on earth do people put ONE lemon or ONE pepper into a plastic bag? There is absolutely no need to do that.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> I think the issue is not one of efficiency and effectiveness. It is that these bloody plastic things being forever in the environment, never deteriorating. We can't keep throwing these things (and a myriad of other plastic waste) into our lakes, forests, and oceans. What we might need is a requirement to use a fully recyclable plastic that has a deposit on them, enticing folk to return them to recycling for money back.


We don't throw them in our lakes, forests and oceans. We throw it all in landfills, where even the biodegradable waste sits, useless and taking up space.
If it is going to a landfill, plastic makes more sense than more environmentally impactful things such as paper and other biodegradables.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> well said!....i like watching people come out of stores with their sustainable, eco-friendly bags, then turn on their cars, and sit there for 10-15 min. with cars running, while they check their phones for messages or any earth-shattering news that might have happened while they were in the store...
> or fast food joints banning straws or whatever while there are cars lined up burning gas idling in their drive-thrus 24/7....
> multiply that by 5-6 stops a day times millions of drivers, and what've you got? alot o' climate change ...lol


 ... yep, as driving to Costco doesn't uses and produces gas.



> if they can make hamburgers from plants (and stll call'em burgers!), surely someone'll invent a good cheap plastic-like bag that'll disintegrate into something enviro-friendly in a short time, dontcha think?


 ...didn't they already invented those ... called "biodegradable" plastics? All the rage back then ... and we're still environmentally concerned?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Can't use the cashier cheapie for wet waste. They leak. In any event, we don't collect more than a few cashier type plastic bags per month.


My garbage is usually 'dry'. And I don't generate more than two kitchen catchers a month worth of garbage, except packaging from large purchases. Wet stuff mostly ends up in green bin, and garbage is only collected every other week to incentivize using green bin.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Ontario is looking at bans and also things like shifting responsibility back on to the producers.
> https://globalnews.ca/news/5040533/ontario-government-plastics-ban/
> 
> Another way to signal your position on plastic is to shift the responsibility onto the retailer at the point of purchase by removing packaging at the check-out. I haven't seen anyone doing this in a supermarket here yet but it seems to be happening quite a bit elsewhere.
> ...


Is it more environmentally friendly to use packaging that results in more damage and spoilage? That's what many people are missing when it comes to plastic packaging in the food system. Berries are in those plastic clamshell containers to improve airflow and protect from being crushed.

I agree that consumers have power when it comes to packaging. The preponderance of plastic is a demonstration of consumer preference.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

doctrine said:


> This whole plastics discussion is not going to end the way people think. Plastic bags, once banned, will be replaced by a whole series of almost certainly less efficient and more costly options that will virtually certainly result in more energy consumption. It hasn't been seen yet but at scale, you could see vast amounts of increased organic consumption represented by increasing deforestation or re-purposed farming. This is a scientific and economic certainty - plastic bags and packaging are the cheapest, most efficient, and food-safest form of packaging available. Everything else I have seen is heavier, less efficient, and requires more energy, usually at a order of magnitude (>x10) level. But, whatever makes people feel good. It's easier than making real choices to save the environment, like giving up air travel and your vehicle, electric or not.


I do think discussions like this will help change the way people think. It's have to be all or nothing. Hopefully, some people have gotten some tips, and try to reduce their waste just by a little bit. Another way to think about it is not what is the replacement for single use plastic, but do I really need that, is there a better choice. When posters come here asking for how to save more money or get out of debt, the members here are the first to jump in and ask if all for the spending is really a need and if there are better options. Isn't that the same with the environment? Isn't not about walking/biking everything, not travelling, not buying anything, but rather is there a better choice. When we buy something we are looking for value for our money, the same with the environment, should that not be at least considered? 



jargey3000 said:


> well said!....i like watching people come out of stores with their sustainable, eco-friendly bags, then turn on their cars, and sit there for 10-15 min. with cars running, while they check their phones for messages or any earth-shattering news that might have happened while they were in the store...
> or fast food joints banning straws or whatever while there are cars lined up burning gas idling in their drive-thrus 24/7....
> multiply that by 5-6 stops a day times millions of drivers, and what've you got? alot o' climate change ...lol
> 
> if they can make hamburgers from plants (and stll call'em burgers!), surely someone'll invent a good cheap plastic-like bag that'll disintegrate into something enviro-friendly in a short time, dontcha think?


One doesn't have to be perfect and change everything they do. It's all about making choices that are a little better, or not as bad, whatever one decides. I will still drive my vehicle but do try to use the smaller one, not idle, and combine/carpool trips. My next vehicle will most likely be an hybrid or electric. 

I do go through the drive thru if there's not a huge line, otherwise I will run in. I will ask for no straws, no bag (if possible), then compost or recycle the materials after. 

It doesn't have to be an all or nothing. It's like someone trying to get healthier and saying 'well since I can't be an Olympic athlete, why even brother trying'. 



MrMatt said:


> We don't throw them in our lakes, forests and oceans. We throw it all in landfills, where even the biodegradable waste sits, useless and taking up space.
> If it is going to a landfill, plastic makes more sense than more environmentally impactful things such as paper and other biodegradables.


Very true. Our city has a pretty good compost and recycling program. I am trying to keep as much of the stuff out of the garbage and getting better at cleaning and sorting through. However, I am really starting to see if I can just reduce the amount that goes into any of the three bins.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Another way to signal your position on plastic is to shift the responsibility onto the retailer at the point of purchase by removing packaging at the check-out. I haven't seen anyone doing this in a supermarket here yet but it seems to be happening quite a bit elsewhere.


No Frills has been doing that for decades. It seems to have worked for them. To some degree, Costco also encourages it. IF they replaced their plastic packaging of produce with more biodegradable netting, they would get a gold star!

I agree with your other points too but I am afraid your wife is an exceptional consumer. But a ban on single use plastics will force the grocers to seek alternatives.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> One doesn't have to be perfect and change everything they do. It's all about making choices that are a little better, or not as bad, whatever one decides. I will still drive my vehicle but do try to use the smaller one, not idle, and combine/carpool trips. My next vehicle will most likely be an hybrid or electric.
> 
> I do go through the drive thru if there's not a huge line, otherwise I will run in. I will ask for no straws, no bag (if possible), then compost or recycle the materials after.
> 
> It doesn't have to be an all or nothing. It's like someone trying to get healthier and saying 'well since I can't be an Olympic athlete, why even brother trying'.


Exactly, do what you can ... it's not an all or nothing. If things do a cause signifcant environmental impact then a recycling mandate should be put forward. If grocery bags are a "real issue" then why doesn't our city (all cities) collect them in the recycle bins.

And before you go buy your hybrid/EV car make sure they (properly) recycle those batteries. This will likely become a issue in the next 10 years ...


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> Well, many plastic bags are now indeed single use plastic bags. No recycler will take most of them, i.e. the cheap ones retailers foist on us at the cashier. That could change with a requirement to use a different recyclable compound and they might cost 25 cents each, e.g. including a 10 cent deposit for recyclable returns like aluminum beverage cans and plastic water bottles. There are many ways to truly 'fix' the problem.


Sadly, a helluva lot of "recyclable compound" will still end up in landfills, lakes, rivers and oceans. That's because a huge segment of the population quite frankly, my dear, does not give a damn.

For awhile this summer my wife has been working away from our home, working as a cook at a resort. I have spent time there with her. The observations I have made there about human behaviour is enough to give a hyena the dry heaves.

The resort has a number of bins placed here and there, plainly marked as being repositories for recyclable cans, plastic bottles etc. But do people use them? Nope. Not only are even poor people in no way motivated to recover their 5 and 10-cent deposits, many folks seem distinctly hostile to the notion of recycling anything. All of the bins intended for garbage receive the lion's share of aluminum cans and plastic bottles. Walk into the men's washroom and note the beer cans mixed in with the used paper towels, while a recycling receptacle stands empty just outside the door. It appears that most _want _this stuff to go to the landfill.

Near the back door of the resort kitchen are dumpsters clearly marked for what they will receive. Two big ones are marked for a variety of recyclable material - paper products, tin and aluminum containers, hard plastics, etc. No requirement to sort. Right next to those receptacles are dumpsters for garbage. Again, those dumpsters receive the bulk of what could be recycled. Just look inside. Lots of cans, plastics, you name it. It's as though those using those dumpsters have as their motto "Don't tell _me_ what to do." They put the recyclables into the garbage because it feels good, it would seem. By the same token, wherever I see dumpsters intended for recycling programs, I am regularly appalled by the amount of just plain garbage they attract. My guess is that a lot of those dumpsters are unloaded into landfills simply because it's too labour-intensive, nasty and costly to try to separate out the crap.

In keeping with the "Don't tell me what to do" attitude is how the resort recycling (what little there is) is handled. The receptacles have signs printed on them stating the obvious: "Please flatten cardboard." Yet, it's the norm to see those containers overflowing with large and very unflat boxes. So those dumpsters fill up in a hurry. As well, the cardboard that does get put in there has often sat outside in the rain and the mud for a few days and one wonders how that dirty, soggy mess can be recycled into anything. 

And let's not even mention what gets strewn along our roadsides every day. For many years I had a place on a southern gulf island. The natural beauty attracted me to it. I reckoned (very wrongly) that those who visit (or live) in such a place are also drawn to the beauty and want to preserve it. Wrong-O! While not always plainly visible to passing vehicular traffic, the roadsides were chock-a-block full of cans tossed from cars. I had one 3-mile route I used to walk regularly. Every time I did so I could fill up one of those "single-use" plastic bags with discarded beer and pop cans. I tended to leave the rest, such as so-called "disposable" diapers. 

So, in sum, people are pigs (probably unfair to pigs to say that - they probably do not intend to deliberately destroy their environment), they really do not care a whit and, if we think it's bad now, wait till we have 100 million slobs living in Canada. Even if we cut waste in half on a per capita basis (which we won't) we'll still have more net filth. I despair for future generations. They can blame it all on the boomers, but they'll still be in a mess.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't disagree with you, but even incremental change is better than nothing. I am heartened whenever I go to our recycling depot to see a steady stream of users bringing their recyclables back for cash. I have no idea whether that represents 5%, or 10% or 2% of the population but if it could even be doubled, that would be helpful. If plastic bags had a 10 cent deposit on them, some folks would recycle them. I see too many plastic bags caught in landscaping, fields, wire fences, etc. Sadly, it is also more prevalent on First Nations lands than elsewhere. So much for being stewards of the land.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Exactly, do what you can ... it's not an all or nothing. If things do a cause signifcant environmental impact then a recycling mandate should be put forward. If grocery bags are a "real issue" then why doesn't our city (all cities) collect them in the recycle bins.
> 
> And before you go buy your hybrid/EV car make sure they (properly) recycle those batteries. This will likely become a issue in the next 10 years ...


I find it really interesting to hear about what can and cannot be recycled in different cities. I remember at one point those plastic solo cups and coffee cups could not be recycled. Tim's and Starbucks was creating a 'recycle' bin for their stuff, but didn't really recycle because there was no facility locally that could handle it. I feel very fortunate that my city has some state of the art recycling, but still has a way to go and has been changing. 

This is one of the problems. The cost of infrastructure to create recycling and compost facilities can be very high and the average citizen doesn't want to pay the extra $7 a month. I also find because they are changing the abilities, it's hard to keep up. Our family makes an above effort and still gets things wrong. I can see a lot of people just giving up. 

I find if people tell their municipalities they do care and want changes (and support the costs involved) the municipalities will eventually respond.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> Tim's and Starbucks was creating a 'recycle' bin for their stuff, but didn't really recycle because there was no facility locally that could handle it.


Just think of the impact of those stores (and others like them) having recycled cups alone, even if only 25% make it to recycling. I do see a very small percentage of people using their own travel mugs even when it $.10 cheaper per cup.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Just think of the impact of those stores (and others like them) having recycled cups alone, even if only 25% make it to recycling. I do see a very small percentage of people using their own travel mugs even when it $.10 cheaper per cup.


I have noticed that people are trying to recycle more with the cups. The challenge is that the lids in my city cannot be recycled and need to be separated. I know alot of people don't bother, and then it jams up the equipment. I have purchase reusable cups from both Starbucks and Tim's, they we $2 each, and look exactly like the large cups. I try and bring mine. They are still plastic, so eventually will end up being recycled. The coffee shop in my building offers if you bring an reusable mug, they will charge you only a for a small size drink. Great deal for those fancy drinks, so my $2 cup has saved me about a buck several times. 

My municipality has also started charging more for the commercial places for waste disposal. Some of our larger malls and large events have started hiring people to make sure people put their waste in the right container. At first I thought that was really expensive to do, but then one of the mall managers was saying it was about break even when you factor in the reduction in cost of garbage disposal and they are employing people that have challenges finding other employment in addition to helping the environment. It needs to get to a point where it makes good business sense ($) for businesses and consumers to become more sustainable.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Ontario is looking at bans and also things like shifting responsibility back on to the producers.
> https://globalnews.ca/news/5040533/ontario-government-plastics-ban/
> 
> Another way to signal your position on plastic is to shift the responsibility onto the retailer at the point of purchase by removing packaging at the check-out. .


Good luck with that. Most of my shopping is online because it is more convenient. Make it more awkward at retail, and we'll buy even more online.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> ... The first article you posted is from 2007. I would be interested in knowing if these numbers have decreased since a lot of provinces started charging for plastic bags ...


It still isn't all that recent, where the article points out that reporting to know the numbers for sure isn't required. However, in Ontario Loblaws reported a 55% drop in 2009 while Sobeys says 72% and Metro says between 70-80%.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/and-they-said-it-wouldn-t-catch-on-1.901224




Plugging Along said:


> ... Though we always tried to bring our own bags, I was not perfect with this (I would say >95% of the time though). When they started charging in my province, I became even more vigilant about always having re-useable bags with me ...


I keep some in my car where at times, when I have forgotten to bring them in, if the number of items is low enough, I refuse the bag and add the items to the reuseable bag in the car.


Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

kelaa said:


> Reducing the overuse of plastic bags is a good goal. But it is a lot more complex than to equate every bag reduced at the grocery store as a net win ...


Sure ... but then again, with how long the reuseable bags have lasted me, I'm conservatively over four hundred uses. Then there's the non-grocery times I've used them as well.




kelaa said:


> ... Keep in mind that a regular plastic bag has a fraction of the material of a sturdier tote. How many times do you want to carry dripping seafood / meats in your reusable bag? Okay, you can wash them, but that requires water, detergent, energy, which eats away at your net gain.


I haven't had to wash them. I seem to be able to find ones that aren't dripping and use the fruit/vegetable plastic bags just in case. Then as you mentioned above, reuse the fruit/vegetable plastic bags for garbage.



Cheers


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Single use plastic bags is a terribly inaccurate phrase and not a reflection of reality. Virtually everyone I know reuses plastic bags and no one throws them out.


Good for you and your circle ... but most of those seeing me make double, triple or quadruple use of plastic bags comment that "What's the big deal? Get another one."


Cheers


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Exactly, do what you can ... it's not an all or nothing. If things do a cause signifcant environmental impact then a recycling mandate should be put forward. If grocery bags are a "real issue" then why doesn't our city (all cities) collect them in the recycle bins.
> 
> And before you go buy your hybrid/EV car make sure they (properly) recycle those batteries. This will likely become a issue in the next 10 years ...


Surely the alternative vehicle is not a concern for recycling as well?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> AltaRed said:
> 
> 
> > I think the issue is not one of efficiency and effectiveness. It is that these bloody plastic things being forever in the environment, never deteriorating. We can't keep throwing these things (and a myriad of other plastic waste) into our lakes, forests, and oceans. What we might need is a requirement to use a fully recyclable plastic that has a deposit on them, enticing folk to return them to recycling for money back.
> ...


Trouble is ... I see lots of it blowing around the street, in rivers/lakes and there's lot of footage of it being in the ocean.


Cheers


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

It is a much bigger problem that recyclables are contaminated with garbage than recyclable material being placed in the trash. It is very costly to sort out trash from recycling. I quietly seeth when I see people at work casually toss foil coffee bags and plastic wrap in the green bin. I have to conclude they are too mentally lazy to spend a fraction of a second to decide which bin to put it in. When in doubt, put in on the garbage.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

And in developing countries, they are discarded in every ditch, embankment, river, etc. Like everything else, most first world nations do a better job of recycling and responsible garbage disposal than developing nations.

And given China's ban of a year ago or so, the bottom has fallen out of the recycling market. Just a sampling of articles follow....
https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/garbage-recycling-china-plastics-canada-1.4586602
https://www.wired.com/story/since-chinas-ban-recycling-in-the-us-has-gone-up-in-flames/
https://e360.yale.edu/features/pili...-importing-waste-has-stalled-global-recycling


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

andrewf said:


> It is a much bigger problem that recyclables are contaminated with garbage than recyclable material being placed in the trash. It is very costly to sort out trash from recycling. I quietly seeth when I see people at work casually toss foil coffee bags and plastic wrap in the green bin. I have to conclude they are too mentally lazy to spend a fraction of a second to decide which bin to put it in. When in doubt, put in on the garbage.


This really annoys me too. There was a study that estimated that tens of millions are being spent each year either sorting or fixing machinery due to contamination. When I see something thrown in wrong, I do try to quickly sort it, and if I see someone doing it, I will polite tell them where it goes. I have had someone tell me that they pay their $10 a month, so they could do what they want. I have also had people tell me they do it on purpose because they feel that Styrofoam or whatever should be recycled, and this is their way to protest and tell people we want change. I tell them how much is spent due to their actions and how long it takes to get the infrastructure. Some really didn't know, but some are just clueless. It makes me really annoyed that they would be better off just throwing it in the garbage. 



AltaRed said:


> And in developing countries, they are discarded in every ditch, embankment, river, etc. Like everything else, most first world nations do a better job of recycling and responsible garbage disposal than developing nations.
> 
> And given China's ban of a year ago or so, the bottom has fallen out of the recycling market. Just a sampling of articles follow....
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/garbage-recycling-china-plastics-canada-1.4586602
> ...


It was a great wake up call for me when I was in latin America last summer. There was no recycling, things were just thrown to the side. I had a really difficult time throwing things away that could be recycled. Our guide explained that there just isn't the infrastructure. When there was already so much poverty, recycling is the least of their concerns. It's a depression view, then I decided to look at it, as being fortunate enough that I can live in a City or country where there is money for infrastructure to recycle, I need to make better use.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> Surely the alternative vehicle is not a concern for recycling as well?


If you getting one based on environmental reasons, why not?


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> It's a depression view, then I decided to look at it, as being fortunate enough that I can live in a City or country where there is money for infrastructure to recycle, I need to make better use.


Sure, and do I think recycling on the front lines of every household in our society has been accepted and works quite well. Most have bought into it. We sort out all our stuff in the home and put it out in multi-colored bins and they take it away, and we all feel good. That system seems to work pretty good. We can pat ourselves on the back.

It's what comes next that doesn't live up to our expectations, or so it seems from what I've read. I've read about 50% of our recycling ends up in landfills and that plastic recycling is the least efficient recycled material.

_"Globally, more plastics are now ending up in landfills__, incinerators, or likely littering the environment as rising costs to haul away recyclable materials increasingly render the practice unprofitable"......."Even before China’s ban, only 9 percent of discarded plastic was being recycled, while 12 percent was burned. The rest was buried in landfills or simply dumped and left to wash into rivers and oceans"._

ltr


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> It was a great wake up call for me when I was in latin America last summer. There was no recycling, things were just thrown to the side. I had a really difficult time throwing things away that could be recycled. Our guide explained that there just isn't the infrastructure. When there was already so much poverty, recycling is the least of their concerns. It's a depression view, then I decided to look at it, as being fortunate enough that I can live in a City or country where there is money for infrastructure to recycle, I need to make better use.


I was in Mexico completing the sale of our condo and buying things for the new condo. Everywhere we went, they offered little half bottles of water in plastic. Most of those businesses have no recycling capacity.

Funny how I notice and feel guilty when I see that going on. I think they are just a generation behind us in embracing the environment. They are blessed with ample land of plenty. 

Then I come back and find our leader thinks plastic bags are his priority (and not water bottles?). And Quebec is going to the Supreme Court with Saskatchewan to fight the unconstitutional carbon tax. What a mess!

In Nice, they have wine bottle recycling stations around downtown and only 750 ml glass bottles will fit. In the condo, they have paper and plastic bins.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

cainvest said:


> If you getting one based on environmental reasons, why not?


I mean that you have your thumb on the scale worrying about the electric car's recylability and not that of the alternative gas guzzler.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

kcowan said:


> In Nice, they have wine bottle recycling stations around downtown and only 750 ml glass bottles will fit. In the condo, they have paper and plastic bins.


I found that they only sold 750 ml bottles in France. Their snobbishness about screwtops was also disappointing. Screwtop is superior to cork, and more convenient.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

andrewf said:


> I mean that you have your thumb on the scale worrying about the electric car's recylability and not that of the alternative gas guzzler.


Well if one is going to choose an F150 over a Prius because of battries, sure. 
You can still opt for a fuel efficient (non-hybrid) car though they seem to be going the way of the dodo bird now. Darn VW and their "diesel-gate" really messed that up.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

About the most sensible comment I have read is that it is not 'all or nothing'. Everyone can probably find ways to reduce their contribution to landfill sites with very little effort at all. We don't live in a perfect world and we don't need to try and find ways to make it perfect but we can find ways to improve what we do.

I read the comment about people letting cars idle and that strikes a chord with me. They idle to keep the air conditioning running in summer and the heater running in winter. You see it at the supermarket parking lots all the time. Contrast that to Switzerland where it is illegal to let your car idle while stopped at a red light! Stop at a red light in any town there and you will see the cars around you all shutting off their engine and then starting up again when the light changes. Some may see that as a step too far but it certainly puts idling in a parking lot or in a drive-through at a Timmy's etc. in perspective I think.

I read the comment about roadside littering and again it strikes a chord. I live near a Timmy's and constantly find empty Timmy's paper coffee cups on our property. Clearly, many Timmy's customers are not good non-littering Canadians. My own theory on this particular habit is that they have an empty cup sitting in the cup holder in their car when they go through the drive-through to buy a new one. So as they drive out, they have nowhere to put the new cup and they throw the old cup out the window.

Timmy's is at the edge of town here and it is a straight run up the road to the highway. I drove it one day and counted the number of Timmy's cups along that couple of kilometres to the highway. I lost count somewhere around 50. As has been said, some people just don't care. 

I do not use drive-throughs but can anyone tell me if Timmy's etc. have a recycle point AT the drive-through window? That would be the point at which I would think people would use one to get rid of the old cup sitting in their cup holder. NOT a recycle bin that would require them to get out of the car to use. Someone who uses a drive-through is already indicating their reluctance to step out of their car.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I do not use drive-throughs but can anyone tell me if Timmy's etc. have a recycle point AT the drive-through window?


Some do and some don't have a recycle bin. Another issue is many times I've seen these drive-thru garbages "overflowing" with stuff just sitting on top waiting for the wind to take it away.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

recycling was 20-30 years ago

broadly speaking it hasn't worked

it's a scandal to expect 3rd world countries to process the first world's toxic waste including e-waste, it was high time they began to put a stop to this ugly traffic

the only solution is to drastically reduce consumption
the "s" word followed by the "g" word
stop growth

wait! isn't that what sags has been saying all along


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> recycling was 20-30 years ago
> 
> broadly speaking it hasn't worked
> 
> ...


This is the challenge with our current 'throw away' society. As a society, are so into convenience and materialism that it is causing issues. As developing nations try to have the same standard of living, it will only get worse. Recycle is 20 years ago, however, we produced so much more than before it's not enough. The focus has been on recycling, however, it was the 3 R's I was taught.

Reduce - Reuse - THEN Recycle. In this order. 

People have forgotten the first two and focused on the last which should be the last resort. I am included in there too but have been recently reminded by my kids. They had to research what happens to the things that get donate and recycled, it was not pretty. E-waste, clothing waste, and many of these other things bringing ship are a problem as you said. 

Before we start looking at new things, I have been asking if we really need it, is there something else we can use before we buy it. It's a challenge when it's cheaper for me to buy a new item than to repair it. Not sure what the answer is, other than we will try to be more mindful in our purchasing decisions. 

Pareto's says that 80% of the results come from 20% of the effort so I hope that each person tries 20% harder to be better.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> I do not use drive-throughs but can anyone tell me if Timmy's etc. have a recycle point AT the drive-through window? That would be the point at which I would think people would use one to get rid of the old cup sitting in their cup holder. NOT a recycle bin that would require them to get out of the car to use. Someone who uses a drive-through is already indicating their reluctance to step out of their car.


No one who claims to care about the environment should be buying take out coffee in a drive thru. That's about as lazy as it's possible to get. I worked in an office for 30+ years and took the time to make a thermos of coffee every morning...no cups to throw out, no extra driving and idling to go through a drive thru.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> This is the challenge with our current 'throw away' society. As a society, are so into convenience and materialism that it is causing issues. As developing nations try to have the same standard of living, it will only get worse. Recycle is 20 years ago, however, we produced so much more than before it's not enough. The focus has been on recycling, however, it was the 3 R's I was taught.
> 
> Reduce - Reuse - THEN Recycle. In this order.
> 
> ...


Reduce - Reuse - Recycle was indeed what we heard years ago Plugging Along and as soon as I read it in your comments, I remembered clearly, hearing it. I would not say people have forgotten it though other than us 'oldies', most I think have probably never heard it. I always think of the rise in 'self-storage lockers' and what it tells us in this regard. 'Buy more stuff' that is the only thing people seem to hear today.

I always remember back in the day when bumper stickers on cars were very popular (some here might even know what a bumper sticker is). One I always recall read, 'He who dies with the most toys wins'. It was a satirical statement about people who accumulated things thinking it somehow denoted 'status'. Today, I think that sticker would just be stating a common belief.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Longtimeago said:


> One I always recall read, 'He who dies with the most toys wins'. It was a satirical statement about people who accumulated things thinking it somehow denoted 'status'. Today, I think that sticker would just be stating a common belief.


I recall that bumper sticker, along with several others, viz.:

(1) Work _harder_ - millions on welfare are counting on you.

(2) Wife and dog missing. Reward for dog.

(3) Wild salmon don't do drugs.

I suppose the latter counts as a satirical comment about how the successive BC governments have been hell bent on destroying the west coast salmon stocks. Similar to what was done with cod in the east. We'll make changes when they have been exterminated.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

And in prehistoric times the adage was "the solution to pollution is dilution". We've come a long way from those days, except perhaps the City of Victoria :hororr:

A month or so ago when Canada's Philippine-Malaysian garbage was making the news, I bought 2 HP ink cartridges at Costco. They came in sealed foil and were imbedded in tough plastic which was sandwiched within 11"x11" stiff cardboard. Aside from the packaging waste, I find them a health hazard to try to open with sharp objects. The kicker was that the damn things were made in Malaysia! They make 'em, overpackage them, ship them here, and then we ostensibly ship the packaging back there.

So I thought I'd call the HP number on the packaging and politely suggest some customers did not appreciate the overpackaging and waste. After waiting, a gal came on and I explained my concern. Well she was the support line. Do you have a customer 'feedback' number? "I'm not sure". Another wait. "No I guess we don't, but my supervisor said to take down your concern and we will pass it on".

If I'd had the time I'd call Costco but my HP call wore me out. Costco has the buying power to dictate supplier requirements. Just ship them in their little foil wrapper, 100 to a box. Then, like many value-dense products at Costco, pick up a card in the store, give it to the cashier, and someone will grab the little foil-wrapped ink cartridge you need from the box in their secure room.


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