# Multiunit House / Duplex vs Single detached & renting rooms



## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I've posted a bit about this in previous posts, but at the time I was considering we would continue our past experiences of renting rooms to students. We've had great success with this and enjoy having extra bodies around for security and company.

That said, I'm also contemplating recommending to my husband we consider buying units such as this: http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9782404&PidKey=-181340355

This is only an example of course. We would live on the main floor unit and rent out the other two units. One question I have is, it seems sometimes duplexed homes sell separately (as in side by sides) and, in this case and it seems most often, as one unit. Is it possible to get separate mortgages on these two units - does anyone here have experience with purchasing duplexes? I'm asking as we would prefer to have two mortages, one on the rental and one on our main residence. This may not be possible but I'd still like to know for sure.

My main point of my post however is to get people's opinions on buying a multi-unit dwelling and renting out a suite or two. In our situation, it would be very close to Dalhousie and we would rent to students. It appears there are many students looking so we could and would try and get the cream of the crop, and we've had years of experience renting out rooms and our condo in Vancouver, so we're not new at this, just new to the idea of a duplex or triplex.

It appears we would get more income from renting out one or two suites than two bedrooms in a detached house, but I'd like please some input of what I need to consider. So far I'm considering:

1. Privacy (not a huge issue with us, and we prefer to have roomates anyway)
2. Utilties - we would have to make sure utilities are paid by the tenant if possible
3. Mortgages - can we have separate ones for our main res and rental unit
4. Insurance - we would be paying more insurance for separate suites than what we pay extra for roomates (suite occupants would pay for their own contents)
5. Location, location location.... much more important when renting units out than the actual unit itself, especially when it comes to students. As long as it's reasonable, we don't need a castle.

Any other things we should consider?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I wonder if this would be better discussed (for a more broad range of experienced opinions) on some sort of a rental/LL forum. I am sure there must be forums for this type of thing. CMF tends to attract people with a common interest in financial issues rather than real estate in particular.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

P.S. Not that you're not welcome to post here, of course. 

Here is one blog that I found but maybe other CMFers know of better/other ones.

http://www.canadarentals.net/rentalblog/?page_id=2


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## iherald (Apr 18, 2009)

Addy said:


> 1. Privacy (not a huge issue with us, and we prefer to have roomates anyway)
> 2. Utilties - we would have to make sure utilities are paid by the tenant if possible
> 3. Mortgages - can we have separate ones for our main res and rental unit
> 4. Insurance - we would be paying more insurance for separate suites than what we pay extra for roomates (suite occupants would pay for their own contents)
> ...


It's my understanding that a duplex is one house, with two 'apartments' in it. As such, I don't think you can get two mortgages. Otherwise, it would be a condo situation, where there are two separate legal residences. The way I think of it is, can I sell the apartment? If not, it can't have a mortgage.

I pay more for insurance on my duplex than I would if it's a single family. it's not a huge amount more $50? and there are restrictions such as any break ins must show forced entry. 

Utilities are hard. Renting to students is easier than to the older people, and you can usually charge more rent. But, how do you make sure they pay the electricity? If it's only a rental building, you don't really care if the power gets cut off. If you live there, you care. You may just want to build it into the cost of rent, and make the rent 'all inclusive'.

Location is important, but I'd say the unit has to be nice. The nicer the rental space (and nice is relative to students) the better type of students. Grad students would be ideal.

Just my thoughts.


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## Dana (Nov 17, 2009)

One address = one mortgage. You would have to allocate the portion of your mortgage interest/prop taxes/utilities that is attributable to the rental and deduct those expenses from your rental income accordingly. I have never heard of a multi-residential property having two separate mortgages - except maybe a first and second mortgage, but not where each mortgage is attributable to a separate unit. How would that work for tax purposes?

As for separate utilities, many duplexes/triplexes are already metered separately, allowing for your tenants to put utilities in their own names It is a small investment to have them separately metered after you purchase. (This is how we do it. We don't want to be stuck paying utilities for someone who has stiffed us on rent - if your tenant stops paying rent, you as landlord cannot cut off their utilities, at least not in Ontario). 

As for living in one unit and renting the other, we have never done that. I wouldn't want to be too available to my tenants. With some tenants it wouldn't be an issue, but for some of the higher maintenance tenants, distance is good. In fact we have a business address and our tenants don't even know where we live.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

In the link you show the property is two addresses and possibly you could get two mortgages. 

Royal the site you gave sucks, doesn't deal with rentals except for allowing free listings of rentals such as craigslist.

The Real Estate section of CMF is just as good a place as any I have found to ask this question.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks Berubeland, perhaps I should have mentioned there were two addresses - I assumed people would check the listing but even then it may not have stood out.

The duplexes that I'm aware of can be one address, basically a house with a suit in it, or side by sides (which aren't truly duplexes I suppose, but similar) which can indeed be owned by different people, so no problem with two mortgages, and it's not a condo type ownership. 

The question I have is, what entitles there to be two mortgages (or two different owners)? I have a feeling that the listing I pointed out can NOT be owned by separate people, which would mean probably not having two separate mortgages, however, I'm not sure and I don't know who to ask about this. I'll try a realtor, I have one in mind but I'm not sure if she could explain it best, or if a mortgage broker could explain it better.

I'm assuming it has something to do with the land titles act, some stipulations it has but I'm really not sure.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

You should ask a mortgage broker or loan officer at a bank.

That property looks like one building. Why does it have two addresses?


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

It's what we call a semi detached here in Toronto. 

Basically what happened is that there were 2 addresses and the property could be owned by two separate people as the owner has not allowed the city to join it. 

This is actually a money making strategy. You can buy a property with separate addresses and sell the pieces.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

A semi-detached is not a duplex. Duplexes are above each other in the same house, not strata titled.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

I've seen places been called duplexes that aren't strata-tiered, but side by side ...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

My father owns duplexes that are side-by-side - 1 address and 1 shared driveway, 2 tenants with 2 entrances side-by-side

I live in a semi-detached - my own yard, my own driveway with entrance at the opposite end, just that my neighbors house is attached to mine. It saves space and maybe heat


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

GeniusBoy27 said:


> I've seen places been called duplexes that aren't strata-tiered, but side by side ...


Once again, the exception proves the rule (at least in Toronto).

(The other thing about semis is that they discourage redevelopment. In North Toronto, many of the small SFH have been demolished and replaced by upscale three storey homes. Last fall, I sold the family home for $550k and it is now an SFH valued at $1.2 million.)


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

Hi, have you ever meet any students before? 

1. they have no money
2. they are drunk all the time and fornicate like rabbits.
3. see 1 & 2

You want to buy 600k house to share with students??

my dear, this is student house, that will serve you well as a cash cow.

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9765820&PidKey=-60535820

You'll notice it's not far from the university either and it just saved you half a million dollars and lot of headaches.

btw, student take things called buses or bicycles to school, if they actual go that is.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

*laughing* ... Hmmm, it is tempting to buy that $26,900 property, even if it is in the wrong side of town, needs to be knocked down and rebuilt. Given it's location, it's bound to appreciate at some point in time.

I must disagree with Chaudi's #1 and #2. You can get great students who have money, and actually study. Where Addy's location is the best part of Halifax to live. To be honest, I think she could easily get professors, docs or nurses to rent there, as it's near the QE hospital complex. That's who I'd get. The only negative about docs is that they have weird hours and may get up in the middle of night to answer a call, but the advantage is that they're almost never home.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Chaudi,

That can apply to any age group. My aunt is a nurse at a seniors home and what goes on there would make you blush. 

The trick as always is to find people that have money and rent to them. 

Finding people who don't fornicate, well I'm not sure why you'd want to do that anyways. Good Luck. 

Students can be very pleasant, just like many tenants.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

I second Berubeland. I've mentioned a fair number of times we have, for many years now, rented to students and have *throughly* enjoyed it. I'm not sure where you get your stereotypes from, but it sure isn't from any reality I've experienced in the past 12 years.

And, from my experience over the past dozen or so years, students do NOT want to bus or bike to school. Therefore the places closest to the schools are very easy to rent out.

Perhaps you should learn a bit more before trying to educate someone who knows a fair bit more than you, and drop the stereotypes while you're at it.




chaudi said:


> Hi, have you ever meet any students before?
> 
> 1. they have no money
> 2. they are drunk all the time and fornicate like rabbits.
> ...


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## chaudi (Sep 10, 2009)

"Perhaps you should learn a bit more before trying to educate someone who knows a fair bit more than you, and drop the stereotypes while you're at it."

If it means spending that kind of cash in halfix to house students, then i guess i don't.

Here are some stereotypical statistics, probably written by communists.
"Just released: 2009 Ontario Student Drug Use Study by the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

23% of Ontario students report that they were offered, sold, or given a drug at school in the last year. That's about 219,000 students.

42% of Ontario students surveyed have used an illicit substance in the last year.

83% of Ontario students in grade 12 drink alcohol. 49% of gr. 12 students admit to binge drinking.

The top four substances used by Ontario students: 58% alcohol; Cannabis (marijuana) 25%; Non-prescribed use of prescription pain relievers such as codeine, Percocet, Percodan, Demerol, or Tylenol #3, 17%; Tobacco 11.7%.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Chaudi, I personally don't find your statistics damning at all.

I work at a University very closely with people of all levels, high school students, undergrads, grad students, post-docs, profs etc. You would be amazed how many of the PhD/MDs, your future researchers and medical doctors and every other type of professional 'use' some of the substances you list.

Many of these are highly acclaimed individuals and somehow maintain to keep all their obligations, social, financial, familial etc.

I think many here would acknowledge your comments show how little insight you might have on this matter. All these 'terrible' potential tenants you believe exist are just normal people, maybe they have a drink from time to time, and perhaps they partake in carnal relations, that doesn't make them bad tenants.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

much as i'm interested in flash topics like fornication & drug use, could i please hijack this thread for a few moments & request thoughts on a much more sedate kind of neighbour problem.

i like my neighbour & try hard to maintain a good relationship, so when she wanted to demolish her rear deck & build a bigger one & asked me not to alert the city building inspectors, because she doesn't have a building permit, i agreed.

as it happens her deck is joined to mine. The 2 houses are semi-detached. The 2 back doors are side-by-side. That's how they built em a century ago. It violates today's building code, but the old buildings are grandfathered.

out the back doors, my side is the original from 1895, so it's tiny. It's only the top stoop to the back stairs. But over the decades the deck on her side has grown larger & larger. Both decks are resting on a series of protruding joists that are embedded in the masonry of the foundations. There's a central joist that i suppose belongs equally to us semi-detached owners, just like we share the mitoyenne wall.

the weight has caused this central joist to sag. In other words, the 2 sides - my small stoop & her big deck - now slope down slightly to the mid-line.

yesterday the contractor demolished the neighbour's deck, exposing the central joist. I thought to myself that some of the posts & beams could have been saved & re-used to prop the sagging central joist. Right now, when the joist is exposed at length, is the only time that this can easily be done. So i went outside & asked the contractor. No, he said, he has no intention of reinforcing any support for the joist. This is the problem with today's builders & tradesmen. They just want to do the minimum for max money.

now i'm also concerned that she's planning an even bigger deck, smack up against my back stairs. This would violate the municipal fire code regulations which stipulate that new wooden structures must be kept at least 3 feet away from the property line.

oh, my. If she'd had to get a building permit most of these details would have been considered. She & contractor would have had to submit drawings, plans, even elevations (the muni is fussy.) But the city doesn't know about this secluded backyard caper, so i have no one to turn to.

fortunately she's always been a reasonable & good-hearted person. My plan is to wait & see how it goes. If they start to build something outrageous like the Mother of all Decks only 6 inches from my back door, i'll speak to her or send her an email. Only in a worst, worst, worst case scenario would i finally ratfink to the city building inspectors. Because if i do, down the tubes will go what has been, for years, a decent relationship.

ie i'm willing to go 60 or 70% to maintain a good neighbour. But the things we do for them !


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Humble Pie... 

Does she fornicate or drink? That's what we all want to know

Neighbours are tough. For years I had a rental house beside mine and frankly the landlord had very bad judgment with tenants. Poor guy. So I avoided being
friendly. 

You might want to talk to your neighbour about the central joist because no deck that is installed on bad structure is going to last.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

she does both.

i sent her an email proposing we get a support post installed under the central joist. She doesn't seem to be living at home these days. We'll C.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Your neighbour may be nice, but she sure is stupid. ANYONE who lets a contractor built anything that needs a permit, without a permit, is stupid.

I will be money that in a few years time, if not sooner, your neighbour will regret hiring this contractor. I would phone the city on her even if it's only for her own good.

edit: Stupid may be too harsh a word, but I couldn't think of any other that would get my point across and not sound so rude.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

chaudi said:


> Hi, have you ever meet any students before?
> 
> 1. they have no money
> 2. they are drunk all the time and fornicate like rabbits.
> 3. see 1 & 2


Having gone to university myself I'm wondering if those that oppose this statement did... or where did you go???

No not all students are party freaks but it's fair to say a lot of them like to have a good time. It's not like you can evict students for partying? And I've seen lots of student housings that were pretty run down around the most prestigious of schools.

That said student parents and loans will pay a premium to live near a school, whether it's a 1/2 mil place or not.

Seeing as you're on a posting don't forget that if you rent out half the space, you pay half the fees or you're scamming the tax payers. That would be $$ on a $600k purchase and lots of people get posted within 3-4 yrs


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

humble....if her deck did begin to affect yours structurally, would she not have to pay to fix your deck...I mean, the building inspector could come and have a look to determine whether the craftsmanship of her deck affected yours, and with hers being illegally built....

But for the sake of being good neighbours perhaps you should voice your concern, and splitting the support beam/work 50/50, your neighbour would see would be in their best interests.

All it takes is one complaint from any neighbour...doesn't have to be you.

Chaudi-when I went to College I rented a room in a house for about 3 years, there were rules to the house, and a few of us rented there, the LL lived there too. It wasn't exactly party central.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

thank you cal. You've expressed a good idea of how i hope & believe it will go.

_" ... But for the sake of being good neighbours perhaps you should voice your concern, and splitting the support beam/work 50/50, your neighbour would see would be in their best interests."_

i've asked neighbour to share costs with me of getting the central support joist reinforced with a couple of well-grounded posts.

we've been neighbours for just over 20 years. She's a hard-working & decent person, a good member of the street community & the greater civic community. I can sympathize with her reluctance to deal with the city's building & planning bureaucracy. They are notorious. Famously fussy. Delays are unpredictable, temperamental, can last for months, even years. Especially when the homeowner wants to demolish an existing structure & replace it with something else. City goes ballistic. More drawings !! More elevations !! More photographs !! Why not keep the original !! The outside professional committee that rules on all building permits is taking a 2-month summer recess !! Come back after labour day !! We have decided that your planned structure is not in keeping with the architectural texture of this streetscape !!

so she just wanted to avoid all that and actually get her project done this summer instead of next year.

i wouldn't phone the city inspectors unless things go horribly, horribly wrong. It really couldn't be any other neighbour. She'd know it was me. There are hedges, trees, no one else can really see.


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## GeniusBoy27 (Jun 11, 2010)

chaudi said:


> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9765820&PidKey=-60535820


I looked at the property and the map doesn't correspond to the address (which is 50 kilometres outside Halifax), because on the map, it's between the Citadel and the port. I Google Earth'd the area ... and there's no way the property price is such. 

If I could buy property in Halifax, even if it's totally run down, for 1.3 acres for $26,900. Trust me, I'd buy it. 

Doesn't matter if it's run down, in an awful part of town ... just sitting on the property would make it appreciate.

Rule #1 in real estate. Make sure you're buying the right thing?


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Seeing as you're on a posting don't forget that if you rent out half the space, you pay half the fees or you're scamming the tax payers. That would be $$ on a $600k purchase and lots of people get posted within 3-4 yrs


What fees? What you said makes totally no sense to me. Our postings are not 3-4 years, sadly.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

When you buy a house on a posting, the government pays all the 1 time fees such as lawyer, Realtor, inspection etc which are all based on the price of the house

If you buy a bigger house to rent out 2/3rds of it, the government is only supposed to pay 1/3 of the lawyer fee etc. On a $600k house I imagine these fees would be $$$, therefore it would take a longer posting imo to be worth it


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> When you buy a house on a posting, the government pays all the 1 time fees such as lawyer, Realtor, inspection etc which are all based on the price of the house


Ahh yes, the relocation related fees. My apologies, I did not realize these were the fees you spoke of.

I never knew inspections and lawyers fees were based on selling price though? Has anyone here ever paid an inspection fee based on the selling price?



mode3sour said:


> If you buy a bigger house to rent out 2/3rds of it, the government is only supposed to pay 1/3 of the lawyer fee etc. On a $600k house I imagine these fees would be $$$, therefore it would take a longer posting imo to be worth it


If we're considering a house (as in one strata title), regardless of the size, it is still considered your principal residence and as such all applicable fees would be reimbursed. You can rent out a basement suite, two bedrooms, heck you could rent out your garage and as long as your family lived in that house it is your principal residence and as such all the routine fees are covered.

If you were to purchase two separate properties (ie two houses, or a side by side etc) then yes, only one set of fees would be covered. However, you can still rent out a basement or room in that one property that is covered, no problem.

The directives are available online and are current, so you can double check anything I have stated if you wish.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

> If we're considering a house (as in one strata title), regardless of the size, it is still considered your principal residence and as such all applicable fees would be reimbursed. You can rent out a basement suite, two bedrooms, heck you could rent out your garage and as long as your family lived in that house it is your principal residence and as such all the routine fees are covered.


Not true, this is fraud. They ask you if you are renting any % of your house out. If you are you lose that % for buying and selling fees. Why should the government subsidize your $600k purchase if you would have otherwise bought a $300k?

I assumed all fees were based on the house value. If I was an inspector I wouldn't charge the same to inspect a trailer or a mansion.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

mode3sour said:


> Not true, this is fraud. They ask you if you are renting any % of your house out. If you are you lose that % for buying and selling fees. Why should the government subsidize your $600k purchase if you would have otherwise bought a $300k?
> 
> I assumed all fees were based on the house value. If I was an inspector I wouldn't charge the same to inspect a trailer or a mansion.


You are welcome to call it fraud, or whatever you wish. I actually find your assumptions quite humourous. Luckily, others who are knowledgeable have already chimed in and this conversation is, sadly, most likely leading towards others who _are _in the know to not reply so I will leave it at that.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Addy said:


> Any other things we should consider?


Well sorrrry


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

My 2 cents on the matter. I was just posted and I believe home inspections and appraisals are generally at fixed rates.

Now about the percentage rented out is concerned, on the entitlement worksheet they do have a figure for the percentage occupied as a principal residence. I suspect this is what mode3sour was referring to. Since I've never asked about it, I wouldn't say for certainty, but I imagine if you are renting out, that percentage decreases and DND would reimburse you accordingly, i.e. pay 70% of the fees if you rent out 30% of the house.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Yea I never really paid attention to whether they were fixed or not since I wasn't paying. But there are more fees than I can even think of... fees for breaking the mortgage contract, interest charges if you have to hold 2 mortgages during the move, land surveys, land transfer taxes, appraisals, "welcome" taxes, deed transfer, cleaning..

I believe you use the same % method if you were to claim a portion of the expenses to have an office or something

I certainly wouldn't want to lose any % of the benefits if I got posted during a RE crash, considering we have home equity protection.

I know people who've been charged for subletting their house while deployed (and collecting benefits) not worth the embarrassment. Personally I would only rent out my house to another DND member on IR, but I have nothing against students. Just too many horror stories


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

"I have nothing against students. Just too many horror stories"

Sounds like you do have something against students, then.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Students are decent tenants because they will pay for a run down place as long as it's near school. My friend rents his basement to 3 foreign students and they just play video games and study. They also come from rich families abroad. DND members who have to live out of country or away from their family are even better though. They have subsidized rent, and they're easy to track down for damage. They are the only ones I'd let in my primary residence

Too many horror stories of DND members renting out their primary residence and losing their entitlements or coming back to find a grow op etc.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

somewhere in this thread i asked for advice what to do about my neighbour who was building a small deck without a building permit. Dwelling is a small semi-detached with common structural support elements underneath the back stairs & neighbour's deck. 

some kindly offered suggestions; one or 2 thought i should turn the neighbour in to city hall (friendly neighbours for 20 years; i like her; we get along.)

now the story is almost ended. I asked my neighbour if contractor could install a supporting post under the central or mitoyenne joist that we both share. She thought it was a good idea. I would have offered to help pay for it, except that contractor had it all done (and very well, too) by noon the next day. Things went swimmingly. At one point i did them small favour - spare you the details - that was necessary for them because of the ultra-tight proximity of these old inner-city victorian row houses.

contractor is so relieved i'm not calling the cops that he's doing a fantastic job. Think i'll hire him myself. Last night neighbour & i christened the new deck with couple glasses of wine. She is just so tremendously grateful that i've been supportive. It's like a bank account. Some day i could be the one needing consideration, and then she will help me.

everything would have been poisoned & destroyed if i had blown the whistle to city hall. I would have lost her good will as a neighbour forever. Instead we might even become friends !! Thank you who took the trouble to answer my post, and special thanks to Cal who had the right sense.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

humble thats great. I still wouldn't advise what you did in every case, but clearly you know your neighbour better than us and I'm glad it turned out the best for you. Plus, it sounds like your neighbour was interested in getting the deck built properly as well. Good to hear you cristened the deck with a few glasses as well


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