# When is it most difficult to raise a child financially?



## sweet sparrow

From birth to the teenage years, there are many reports on what it costs to raise a child in today's dollars. For those of you with children, when was it toughest financially? Was it maternity leave with one spouse staying at home, the daycare years, putting the child in extracurricular programs in grade school, cost of university and living away from home, or something else? I'd be interested in hearing real life opinions as I'm only just living the first phase (mat. leave) and can only guess about the rest.


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## KLR650

I'd be interested to hear others' opinions on this as well, as the mat leave phase is just ending for my family. 

Of course, the answer is going to vary widely from person to person as there are so many variables.


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## Just a Guy

From what I've heard, the most expensive time is when they're adults and need help with their mortgage, family, kids...


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## donald

teen age years have to be close.I remember this was the time(collectively)i grew up middle class,my parents and friends parents let us know in spades.


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## birdman

As my wife worked at home as a stay at home mom our situation may have been a bit different as now I believe both parents usually work out of the home. In any event, we really didn't notice much of a difference in costs when raising our children (3 boys, 2 yrs apart). In the early years there was formulae, baby food, diapers, baby supplies, etc and as they got older these were replaced by clothing costs, shoes, sporting and school activities and the like. We didn't go out to restaurants for dinner much and our entertainment was with friends and dinners at their and our home. Babysitters were an expense. In high school the clothing and sporting costs (hockey, skiing, baseball) were higher as were food costs! (a can of juice concentrate a day and 27 litres of milk a week) However, during these times we spent little on ourselves as our activities were centered around the children and their activities and babysitters were no longer required. Camping trips in a tent were our normal summer vacations. Also, having 3 boys much of the clothing, toys, etc could be passed on to the younger ones. Also, as the years went on my salary increased significantly. Our children were born in the 70's and as we owned our home we benefited from the inflation era of the early 80's.
When the boys left out on their own for work or schooling we assisted them with their education and after that was an interest free loan to buy a small condo. Finally, it was a nice cheque to assist them getting a jump start when married and get into their first home. Now this is done its helping them with RESP's and who knows, maybe some help with paying out their mtge. 
In conclusion, we saw no real difference in costs and if there were they were more than offset by increased earnings. Its a great journey.


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## youngdad3

being a father of 3 I've come to realize it's a matter of personal choices. young babies don't have the notion of materiality so they don't care whether you give them new or used toys (or any toy at all) all they need is your physical contact but yet most new parents buys them tons of shiny-flashy toys. As they get older, they don't need that new iPad/iPod every year plus a laptop and 500$ worth of clothes in september just before school but many parents are loading their CC because they feel like they have to (social pressure?) and when they are adults if they still need help with their mortgage / basic material needs then there might still be some education that needs to be done.

since I'm a generally a frugal type of person I've never percieved much financial stress coming from the children except for my wife that's currently at home. my oldest is currently 10.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

We'd say the post-secondary education years were most expensive in absolute dollar terms. This includes the savings that went into the RESP. 
We also made the choice in favour of stay-at-home Mom which certainly had a financial cost. But given that we weren't giving up a professional income and could live and save on the remaining income, we didn't really do a 'cost-benefit' analysis. 
If two are working it certainly sounds like child care from ~age 2-5 (x number of kids) would also be an expensive phase. Wonder if there are very many instances where the money remaining from the second income isn't really worth it after finding & paying day care, juggling schedules, maybe needing a second car, loss of dependant for taxes, quality of life with the kids, etc.? Does everyone just go for the second income or do some do the math on this?


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## sweet sparrow

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> We'd say the post-secondary education years were most expensive in absolute dollar terms. This includes the savings that went into the RESP.
> We also made the choice in favour of stay-at-home Mom which certainly had a financial cost. But given that we weren't giving up a professional income and could live and save on the remaining income, we didn't really do a 'cost-benefit' analysis.
> If two are working it certainly sounds like child care from ~age 2-5 (x number of kids) would also be an expensive phase. Wonder if there are very many instances where the money remaining from the second income isn't really worth it after finding & paying day care, juggling schedules, maybe needing a second car, loss of dependant for taxes, quality of life with the kids, etc.? Does everyone just go for the second income or do some do the math on this?


When you mention the post-secondary education years including the savings that went into the RESP, are you counting the RESP totals during the PS years, or separate? In my case, I'm going to count that separately since the RESP will hopefully be maxed in the years before PS.

Also in our case, it would definitely be worth one parent staying home during the childcare years. However, if that were me, I would have issues getting back into the industry again and finding a job as close as mine is now. It wouldn't just be about the current financial situation, but would have to take into account future prospects.

I think the daycare wave will hit us as a shock as we are not spending much on diapers, formula, etc. We're getting by with cloth diapers and supplementing with free disposables so far, and borrowing clothes from four different children. (It's not as much as it sounds as there are many seasonal items depending when each child was born.) Ditto toys and baby equipment. The only increases now may be to water and hydro bills for laundry. Or maybe the increase in usage is from the increase in rates. It's hard to tell at first glance.


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## mcoursd2006

OnlyMyOpinion;212682Does everyone just go for the second income or do some do the math on this?[/QUOTE said:


> That decision was made for us when my DW lost her job prior to her mat leave, but we just didn't know it at the time. We were always working under the assumption that she would go back to work when our first child was about a year old, but when the time came she couldn't part with our dear son, so she stayed at home. Two more boys and almost 12 years later she is still at home, but contemplating on go back since our youngest is about to be in full time school.
> 
> As for the question, I can only speak to the stages we've already gone through. I would echo the comments of *frase*. It tough in the beginning with a single income, especially with a mortgage and all the other expenses that came with a new baby. Having two children doesn't double your expenses, nor having three triple it. Economies of scale is great. But being frugal allowed us to pay off that mortgage quickly.
> 
> I must say that you cannot put a price on having their own mother taking care of them on a daily basis.


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## Plugging Along

My oldest is only 8 but my nieces and nephews are older, and some are grown adults.

From what I can tell, it's going to be a very personal choice in what is expensive or not, and what you choose to spend.

Here are some of the major financial implications I have considered:

As a baby, the costs are the initial set up of baby stuff, diapers, formula, and the reduction in wages for mat leave. 

Up until school age child care was and is our major expense or the lose of one income earner. 

School age - private school if you choose to go this route, and this is where activities can start getting expensive depending on what they are enrolled in. 

Teenagers - don't have them yet, but imagine for boys it's the food, and for girls it's the clothes and every thing else you spend to have them within what ever over group they are in. Plus activities.

Young adults.- university, which you may been saving for this whole time, plus the additional costs.

Honestly, since parenting is a life time commitment, there is always the potential that our kids will be a financial challenge at any stage. I think their is a little more discretion as they get older as fitting in, and activities are not critical like food, shelter and child care. I would think that university will be the largest drain, but that is something that parents aren't technically obligated to provide for.


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## Echo

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> We also made the choice in favour of stay-at-home Mom which certainly had a financial cost. But given that we weren't giving up a professional income and could live and save on the remaining income, we didn't really do a 'cost-benefit' analysis.
> If two are working it certainly sounds like child care from ~age 2-5 (x number of kids) would also be an expensive phase. Wonder if there are very many instances where the money remaining from the second income isn't really worth it after finding & paying day care, juggling schedules, maybe needing a second car, loss of dependant for taxes, quality of life with the kids, etc.? Does everyone just go for the second income or do some do the math on this?


For us it made more sense for my wife to stay at home full time and look after our kids. Day care is expensive, but what we really looked at was the time (juggling schedules as you said) and quality of life aspects of having a stay at home parent. We can actually have dinner on the table at 5:45 pm and get the kids in bed by 7:30 pm and enjoy the rest of the evening together. Some working parents we know are just getting home by 7:00 pm.

I did switch careers after we had our first child and that raise, along with some freelance work on the side, eventually made up the financial shortfall.


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## DayTek

We don't have children, but my parents would say the ages of when my brother and I were in primary school (Ages 5-11). Babysitting costs alone would have consistently been their biggest expense. Plus you do a lot of growing between those ages, so new clothes and shoes would have been needed a lot. We are brother and sister, so couldn't share any clothes, either. Once I turned 12, I was able to watch my brother when needed as he was 4 years younger. Our teenage years were likely the cheapest for our parents - I got my first part-time job at 14. I was a very independent teenager and my parents had instilled a good work ethic in me. They never said I _had_ to get a job if I wanted things, but I just felt it was not their responsibility to hand me money for things if I was capable of working for it. They still paid for things like school supplies, class day trips and bus passes, but those would still be far cheaper than full-time babysitting for 7 years.

So yeah, if you have 2 working parents, the daycare/babysitting years I would say would be the most difficult years financially to raise a child...Especially if you enroll your child in sports at that time as well. But, as most people would say, it depends on what you are willing to commit financially to your kids in the different stages of their lives. 

I started paying rent to my parents after I graduated high school because I did not go to post-secondary and therefore was expected to get a job. My parents did not save for my education, nor did they help with the down payment on the first home I bought when I was 20...They paid for the flowers at my wedding and my in-laws bought the midnight luncheon. Everything else, my husband and I footed. His parents did the same thing. Does that make our parents irresponsible or bad? No. They either could not afford it or had other priorities. We never asked or expected anything beyond high school. Other parents would say that the years after high school are the most financially draining because they choose to take on the things our parents didn't. Doesn't make them better or worse, it's just their choice.


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## kcowan

Our toughest time was when two children had to be driven to practices and games from age 11 to 16.


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## sags

I know a lot of parents whose costs really increased when their kids started to drive.

Insurance premiums, damage to cars, traffic tickets............lawyer fees................it adds up.


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## londoncalling

In regards to daycare vs. stay at home parent I think it is dependent on income, career, # of kids. For some it is more expensive to work and pay day than to stay home for others it 
be a better financial choice to work and send the kids to daycare/nanny etc. For others, they may not have the option of having a stay at home parent due to financial wants or obligations.

My son is now 4 and my wife and I have battled with the stay at home parent vs. daycare scenario. After doing the math, financially and career wise it was a no brainer. Years of lost pension, wages, rrsp, health benefits etc. is a lot to recoup. I would say if one parent has a job instead of a career then it may be cheaper and definitely better to stay home for that time period. Single parents often have no choices about how this will play out. Sometimes, emotionally it may make more sense for my wife to stay home. (more so for her than my son). I hope she doesn't regret the choice to say in the working world. My so loves going to his day care where he gets to socialize with his friends, do art, music, swimming lessons, sports etc. Fortunately, we have an excellent daycare provider at a comparatively reasonable price. I have heard of others that are not so lucky and I think it is tragic and unfair. If we needed to we could get by on one income. We only have one child and my wife has a well paying job. She has found a compromise where her employer has let her use her sick days/ holdiays for family/personal days so she can stay home with our son whenever he/she needs. I am not so fortunate. However, my previous career kept me away from home for days/weeks/months at a time. For the most part I am home every night to give my son his bath, help him brush his teeth and read him bedtime stories. I am also there each morning feed him, get him dressed and take him to daycare. I know of other dad's that do not have this option. For our family we have made the choice to both work so that we can fund an education, travel etc with our child. We do not spoil him with toys, electronics etc. For us it is about balance. So far we think we have made the right choice. Not sure what will happen when he starts school

Cheers

PS great thread topic


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## sweet sparrow

Plugging Along said:


> Teenagers - don't have them yet, but imagine for boys it's the food, and for girls it's the clothes and every thing else you spend to have them within what ever over group they are in. Plus activities.


I feel really out of touch with today's wants and needs. I was brought up in a small town with one of everything (one movie theatre, one mall, one library branch, ...well, there were three stoplights in our downtown area...). There wasn't any leftover funds to pay for activities, so I amused myself with reading at the local library. All my friends were an hour away or further, so that cut down on going out. No cell phones back then, but there was a payphone on every corner. For clothes, my parents shopped at the Woolworth or Bi-Way, since they were the only places available to shop at. Once or twice a year, I'd get $100 to spend as I wished on a pair of name brand jeans and a new sweater. 

Things are certainly different now. However, my parents did cover my entire university education, contribute towards the wedding, and helped out with some substantial interest-free loans so we could purchase our first home. 

DH's parents contributed nothing after he turned 18 or so and moved out on his own. I guess the financial obligation ends at 18, but we would like to help our LO with the cost of school, a wedding, and a first home as my parents did for me. I see I'm in for quite the sticker shock.... :distress:


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## Jon_Snow

I'm quite thankful I'll never have to worry about any of this stuff. :tongue-new:


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## Ponderling

Day care is the killer. I will be heard pressed to imagine my oldest, now 14, nagging me enough to shell out $5000 to him in a year, as well as feed and cloth him. When he was in day care a good deal more than $5000 went to his day care and then once a bit older before and after school fees. 

Wife stayed at home with the kids until oldest one was in senior kindergarden (5). Now just the youngest is in before and after schol program and that alone runs $3500 a year. The end is in sight though. He moves to middle school after June, and then at least extended school program fees will end.


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## Ponderling

RESP I have been doing since they were born, and after you get into the habit you just expect that money gets invested regularly. I did the calcuation that the $2000/yr just to max GSEG money was not going to be enough if both go to a 4 year uni or college and apprenticeship. So I have done a bit more than $3k per kid per year for quite a while. 

The accrued amount should allow about $18k per year (in todays dollars) for each kid for 4 years if my basically prudent investments don't go for a **** in the intervening time. I will max out the GSEG lifetime cap for the oldest one in a few more years, and then I plan on getting funds going into a TFSA for him when he turns 18. 

These efforts should get then clear of school substantially debt free. Then I expect they can do their own thing.

I was aided through uni by my parents. they paid the fixed (tuition, housing, transport bus pass) costs and I paid the variable costs, and I graduauted debt free. After that I was to stand on my own. I think that tought me good life lessons while in my mid to early 20's. Once I started working full time I never spent all I earned. Some thing was always saved with the goal of getting investments going. The investments were not always sucessful, but there was not much money involved, so investments gome south while they hurt at the tiem, probably never lost more than a few hundred dollars at a turn.


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## Jacq

Absolutely, beyond a doubt it's the young years (when they're typically in daycare). This also coincides with when most parents are also in their lower earning years. Everything else you can control by choices, but it's hard to control childcare costs unless you have family that can help out with babysitting.
Teenage years in my family have been cheaper by quite a bit. Since I'm a single parent (and INTJ type), both my boys are very independent and the oldest, now 25, got his first job fairly young. He paid for his own cell phone and plan, part of his food (worked fast food), didn't get a driver's license until he actually needed a car to be able to get to work. I sold him my fairly new one for 1/2 book value at that time.
The next most expensive age has been the university years. I didn't have help from my parents and took out student loans and lived extremely frugally. That wasn't so out of the norm in the 80s but I think it is harder for kids today since what's seen as necessities today just weren't when I was in uni. Either they weren't available or you just didn't expect to be able to go out to eat as much, have nice clothes or have your own computer, cell phone, etc. Partly because many of these things weren't even available or if they were, were way beyond your ability to buy them. Most kids that I went to school with were there on student loans, grants or scholarships like I was. It doesn't seem as typical now which is kind of a shame since you tend to be a little more careful with money if it's your own and you have to work for it. Or pay it back.


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## donald

I am a INTJ also jacq---I had the myers brigg(think that's what it's called)done.
I would suspect investors are prone to be this personality type(maybe not)
that all I wanted to say-interesting you pointed out your personality type(I find those tests/personality tests interesting and think they have a lot of merit(esp if one is looking at a career ect)


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## marina628

For me financially it is this time for my 21 year old who had to move away from home to go to school .We choose to rent an apartment in Toronto for her so we can go and visit her some weekends ,the $1200 a month on top of all her school expenses and living cost are costing us about $30,000 this past 12 months.Her dream job is in New York City so in a couple years we will probably have to help her relocate there.She will probably earn $100,000 a year and still have to eat Kraft dinner with rent costs there lol


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## getliquid

marina628 said:


> For me financially it is this time for my 21 year old who had to move away from home to go to school .We choose to rent an apartment in Toronto for her so we can go and visit her some weekends ,the $1200 a month on top of all her school expenses and living cost are costing us about $30,000 this past 12 months.Her dream job is in New York City so in a couple years we will probably have to help her relocate there.She will probably earn $100,000 a year and still have to eat Kraft dinner with rent costs there lol


why would you spoil your kids like that, leasing her a BMW too? let the kid earn her on way.


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## OnlyMyOpinion

*"why would you spoil your kids like that"* - Don't think you can't assume it will spoil them. 
Sure that is one risk - that they take advantage of your assistance and become a ne'er-do-well without an appreciation of money of hard work. 
BUT, there is also the likelihood of them doing well in school and graduating to a good job/career, able to do well themselves early in their lives because of your willingness (and capacity) to help them out financially.
We read so much about kids finishing school with large debts, - you pay that off, then you pay a house off, then you have a family, then you begin to save for some financial independence... oops, ran out of time.


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## gibor365

marina628 said:


> For me financially it is this time for my 21 year old who had to move away from home to go to school .We choose to rent an apartment in Toronto for her so we can go and visit her some weekends ,the $1200 a month on top of all her school expenses and living cost are costing us about $30,000 this past 12 months.Her dream job is in New York City so in a couple years we will probably have to help her relocate there.She will probably earn $100,000 a year and still have to eat Kraft dinner with rent costs there lol


Holy molly  When I was 23 , I left CCCP alone with $160 (maximum I was allowed to take) and 1 chemodan  

....I think you spending too much, my son studies double degree in Wateloo, 1st year he lived in dorm, now he rented apartment with 4 other guys and it's much cheaper than $1200 ...... also I couldn't believe that living expenses for student can be 30K! Yes, my son had a light meal plan and his spendings were about $100/months .... how you child can spend 30K?! every second day fine dining?! expensive clubs?! strange for me..... 
marina, it's not my business, but I'd advise you to read (or listen) to book : "Millionaire next door"


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## randomthoughts

Jon_Snow said:


> I'm quite thankful I'll never have to worry about any of this stuff. :tongue-new:


Seriously, right? Although I'm also aware that I have a higher risk of being lonely and alone in my old age.


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## marina628

Apartment cost is $14,400 of this money ,my daughter gets about $100 a week for her food and transit ,rest goes to tuition and material supplies. My daughter is the top of her school and we are very happy investing in her schooling ,we had her first year in a rooming house but having people coming home in middle of the night drunk and not taking their studies seriously took a toll on her.But this expense also gets us a weekend getaway to the city since we live well outside in a small town.She has one more year then she will be moving whereever the job takes her.


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## fraser

Absolutely.... University, college.

Tuition, Books (cannot believe the price), etc. More for out of town. I was astounded at what my son's and daughter's expenses were a few years ago vs. what it cost when I was at U of T in the mid/late 70's or my spouse was in Nursing School. Far greater than the rate of inflation.

Start saving! I was fortunate...I had unionized summer employment on the railway with lots of overtime plus part time work at the Bay during terms. Not certain how many of those high paying summer jobs are still about...other than the oil fields.

The one exception to this might be organized hockey!


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## nobleea

Most expensive to raise a child? probably when they're in university

Most difficult? I would say when they start all the sports. Tournaments, equipment, fees. Usually you're earlier in your career at that point, maybe working on paying off the house and won't have as much cash flow.

At university time, most people here will have a lot saved up already, will be further along in their careers, making good coin. Plus it's no problem to tell your 20yr old they're going to need to get a job and pay their share, but I wouldn't try that with an 8yr old.


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## tiffbou2

I think all the phases have their financial challenges. 
I feel like I'm in the "golden years" right now. My kids are 6 and 8. They are wiping their own butts, are fairly self sufficient and able to entertain themselves, but still want to snuggle and do family things. On the financial front, they are both full time in school so our daycare costs are done. They aren't eating near the portions of an adult yet. Their school field trips cost $5-$20. It's a great time for our family. The only cost that surprised me was when we did our taxes this year and I added receipts, I realized we'd spent about $2500 on activities like jiu jitsu, swimming, ringette, and gymnastics. 

We had it rough when I was on mat leave for the second time. My daughter was a happy accident, but born so close in age to my son that we weren't able to save up much for my second mat leave. I was able to extend that leave for two years, but that second year after EI ran out, we were trying to make ends meet with just my husband's salary and at the time I was the primary breadwinner. Those were some dark financial days but I wouldn't have given up that time I had at home.

I anticipate teenage years and beyond to be expensive. I've seen my nephews recently through teenage hood. They eat like horses, lol. There's also cell phone plans, car insurance, adult sized clothing and brands, costly field trips (to see a play cost $50. High schools also run one week trips to Italy, etc to the tune of $2500), more expensive activities (eg. high school ski club = $400). That's of course IF you want to provide all those things for your teen. From my perspective as a high school teacher, most parents who can afford it, do. 

My nephew is now in university away from home to the tune of $20K a year. He does work in the summer and is paying for some of it. Again, not every parent is going to be on the same page in terms of what they can afford or what they are willing to afford after their child turns 18, but getting student loans are not possible for a young person if their parents make "too much" money and they can't save $20K a year working a part time job.


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## Tom Dl

University is the most expensive. I have a 17, 15, and 8. Nothing was noticeably expensive, but looking forward to University it will be very expensive. The key to doing it cheap is to move to a place with a neighbourhood university, and two of the places I have lived at have just that. Their base 

I don't buy them cell phones, etc... and once the world gets wifi that may no longer be an issue. The eldest is a really good kid but does not take care of anything, hers, yours, whatever. Driving is not something she has asked for, and I wouldn't trust her at this point. The mid, won't want to drive, and the youngest who knows.

For a lot of people kids are an opportunity to spend money. Not everyone wants to spend less money. The actual 50s type needs of kids are pretty minimal. The rest is commercialism. Even the education part is largely a club membership, gatekeeping thing.

I have actually done it all on the cheap, and they resent it, well the eldest does. I now realize that there is only one more year with her until she moves into an adult role, and I regret not having ever done anything all that great with her. My parents travelled with us to europe a lot because my dad was from the UK. With the way the US is, we haven't even gone there. We have had 3 months off every summer at the cottage, but that is something they just take for granted, and don't really care that we sacrificed to make it possible for them.


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## Jacq

Tom Dl said:


> We have had 3 months off every summer at the cottage, but that is something they just take for granted, and don't really care that we sacrificed to make it possible for them.


This must be hard. I don't think kids really realize a concept like sacrifice until they have children of their own. Maybe some never do. Mine sort of get it - they are both fairly to very frugal (more than I am). With the oldest, I had to have a talk with him when I had an add-on credit card for him when he was in university to ask him if he wanted me to delay my retirement for a year or two so that he could eat out and go out with his friends to the bar whenever he wanted (not something I do personally) on my dime. It embarrassed him to the point that he surrendered the CC actually. I think it just takes having to pay for things on their own for awhile to see the really quite significant amounts required to just live for one person. I wouldn't "write off" a kid's focus on other-than-self until at least 22 or so. It's just a brain maturation issue earlier than that.

Re. the people glad to have no children and happy to not have to worry about these things - well, they really are a constant joy even more than they are a challenge. They help you grow as a person in ways you can't even imagine. It's been a priceless experience and an honour to be my boys' mom, as corny as that sounds and I welcome all the challenges inherent in that since generally, we grow through challenge, not when everything's easy.


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## Plugging Along

Tom Dl said:


> For a lot of people kids are an opportunity to spend money. Not everyone wants to spend less money. The actual 50s type needs of kids are pretty minimal. The rest is commercialism. Even the education part is largely a club membership, gatekeeping thing.
> 
> I have actually done it all on the cheap, and they resent it, well the eldest does. I now realize that there is only one more year with her until she moves into an adult role, and* I regret not having ever done anything all that great her.* We have had 3 months off every summer at the cottage, but that is something they just take for granted, and don't really care that we sacrificed to make it possible for them.


Just curious, now that your oldest is 17, if you could turn back time, what would you do differently?

This is a constant conflict I have with myself. We don't mind spending on the kids, especially experiences but it's a balance between over indulging them, and having them miss out and having regrets later.


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## Toronto.gal

Jacq said:


> Re. the people glad to have no children and happy to not have to worry about these things - well, they really are a constant joy even more than they are a challenge. They help you grow as a person in ways you can't even imagine. *It's been a priceless experience and an honour to be my boys' mom*, as corny as that sounds and I welcome all the challenges inherent in that since generally, we grow through challenge, not when everything's easy.


+10! 

And not corny at all.


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## gibor365

Toronto.gal said:


> +10!
> 
> And not corny at all.


Completely agree!
"When is it most difficult to raise a child financially? " -in Canada -> always  the least expensive between ages 10 - 17


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## gibor365

_University is the most expensive_ it also depends on university/program and where student lives dorm/rent or home...Also, student can work in summer or during study (like peer tutor ...)...kindergartens are also extremely expensive in Canada , we paid about $800-900 for average kindergarten and it was 7-8 years ago, now I suppose it's even more expensive....


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## summer

My parents raised us on the cheap and it really affected the way I raise my kids. I don't do it on the cheap. For us, so far the most expensive time is now. We are doing private school for high school. So university will feel cheap compared to that.

We travel and that gets costly with four of us in the family. Kids do sports, that's an additional $275 a month.

I hated growing up when we wouldn't buy anything that wasn't on sale. We did one family vacation in my entire childhood. Never ever ate at restaurants. I got a job at 14 because I felt guilty asking for money because I knew how cheap my mom was. So from 14 on I bought all my own clothes. If something cost money, I didn't ask for it.


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## HaroldCrump

I haven't read through the whole thread, but all I can say is that raising my kids has been an absolute fun experience (so far).
They are little imps at times (9 & 7), but overall it's been a blast.

As for the expense/costs of raising kids, yeah well, opinions vary.
I have seen a wide spectrum of studies - both from groups that under-report expenses like the Fraser Institute vis-à-vis those that way over-report, such as the Money Sense study.
Meh, it's totally worth it IMHO.

What else were we gonna do?
Eat out at restaurants thrice a week, and go for 3 vacations to the Caribbean every year instead of twice :rolleyes2:


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## Jon_Snow

Harold, I can think of a litany of things I can do that those without kids cannot. But I am a selfish D.I.N.K. :biggrin:

Seriously though, I get that raising children must be a remarkable journey - I watch my siblings raise their own kids with a kind of morbid fascination - some serious ups and downs going on there.

But I would suggest that the lives of the child free can also be remarkable in VERY different ways. I know that if we had chosen to have kids, we likely would have had to work 15 years longer - because I would have chosen to provide them with the best possible upbringing - the idea of raising "kids on the cheap" is sort of offensive to me. To me (and it may be inappropriate for a childless person to have an opinion on this) if you chose the become a parent, it is important that you provide the best possible for them within your financial means.

Again, these are the ramblings of soon-to-be early retired D.I.N.K., so feel free to dismiss them out of hand. :tongue:


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## HaroldCrump

Jon, I wasn't directing my post at you, even though I know you are the most vocal, self-proclaimed DINK on here :biggrin:
I understand a DINK lifestyle has its own charms...

I can think back to the time before we had kids, and even though, we were a DINK couple, we didn't have enough money to afford overseas vacations and fancy restaurants.
A movie at a drive-in theatre was a fun evening for us, followed by a home meal, cooked jointly (well, mostly her doing the cooking, while I provided _management oversight _and _expert guidance_) ;o)


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## humble_pie

i thought that ages 11-16 are the costliest, because their needs (clothing, travel) are adult-sized plus all that tuition, summer camp & sports/music instruction cost $$ but they are still too young to really earn anything.

once they start earning something for themselves, as older teens & in their 20s, then helping them financially at university feels more like a partnership, not so much a parental financial obligation, at least so it seems to me.

some friends of mine have an entrepreneurial 15-year-old, he's into limited-edition fancy sneakers. It's a fad now among kids. These one-time-only sneaker IPOs are extravagantly designed, made of better materials & far more expensive than mass runs by the same companies. Kids who are into these "kicks" are known as sneakerheads (evidently kicks is the cool word for cool sneakers.)

this 15-year-old scouts which stores are going to be offering new limited editions & when. There's always a waiting lineup through the night, the allocation to the store will always sell out in minutes.

the kid takes advance orders, waits in the darkness & the cold through the wee hours of the morning with the other kids in the lineup, then scrambles into the store to grab as many promising pairs as he can bundle into his backpack. Texting pictures to his customers the whole time.

his parents don't drive him, they make him take public transportation. Not to punish him, it's just that they've always encouraged realism. I'm told the young lad will take a bus 30 km away to a shoe store in a west island suburb, then camp outside all night in a lineup ... in february.

he sells the sneakers to his friends at a profit, of course. Laddie will go far in business, i do believe.

right after hearing this story i stumbled on this video about limited-edition kicks from the NY Times' ace fashion journalist Bill Cunningham:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/fashion/bill-cunningham-on-mens-sneakers.html?_r=0


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## donald

I don't have children.I wonder though and it seems to be backed up(ie:mitch album ect....is that how you spell his name?)
If they say health and family are the most important(ie:it is the biggest blessing,i tend to agree)money a distant 3rd(does it even register?)
I am just thinking when the dust settles and this journey of life is thought from a end perspective.
Would the saddest thing be a Man without children etc(i am not saying people without kids Don't have a blessed life)but maybe they missed out on a journey that no amt of money could replicate(really,how much joy at the end of the day and when the dust settles does owning say thousands of shares of this and that or houses or cars or etc)
I don't think a grandpa or grandma alive would trade places with a fatherless man near the end,billionaire or not(this is not directed at jon snow,like i said i don't have kids either)


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## carverman

donald said:


> I don't think a grandpa or grandma alive would trade places with a fatherless man near the end,billionaire or not(this is not directed at jon snow,like i said i don't have kids either)


No matter how much wealth you acquire in your lifetime...you still can't take it with you...well maybe bitcoins. :biggrin:
I think that one's health is under estimated in comparision to wealth...even grandfathers can still enjoy their wealth,,,as long as they have good health to enjoy it..travel around the world
and do the stuff you always wanted to do on your bucket list...


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## donald

I am not saying it is a either or for 'grandparents' i am just saying a ticker tape(example)wouldn't come close(say vs throwing a baseball around with a grandson)
I have read a lot of bio's on wealthy people and they even say(they are living the financial 'dream')that they come to realize money doesn't register.
Sometimes(i am talking about myself,and i ain't financial 'rich' like some here)that fretting over a ticker tape etc is a bit pathetic(if you really think about it)


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## Jacq

But Jon - what can a person do when their kids are the cheap ones! LOL 

I'm like: "let me take you to a hairdresser" and the 13 yo says "no way, I don't want a stranger touching my hair, I want to do it myself." Or he's building his own wooden gun lately (apparently toothpicks make interesting bullets) or like today, when he tells me that some Telus reps approached him while walking the dog, offering him a free laptop to switch service providers - so he's off doing some research on cost comparisons. I'm not even kidding, he's phoning them right now to get the deets after his older brother laid out a "questions to ask" template. Meanwhile, my lazy self is like, nah.... just stick with Shaw.... I totally get that it absolutely is less expensive to not have children - yet... dammit... they're a lot of fun! And honestly, I wouldn't have had the drive that I've had to earn more (albeit in this on/off career that I've got) had I not had them. I want time off for a large part to be with them because they are interesting people to be with (unlike some people I work with). So it's not really that many people *want* to raise their children frugally, but it just happens - the genetic apple doesn't fall far from the tree IMO. I was totally not this way at that age though. However, my kids have been to the Caribbean on cruises (multiple times)/many other places mostly RV'ing over the years. Not cheap and probably not very meaningful for them, but we did have a heck of a good time on all those trips so it's all good.
BUT both of them are not materialistic at all (like I have to force them to get rid of socks with holes - and they comparison shop on unit costs??? WTH?) and I'm not really sure how that happened since I didn't go all frugal on them in any kind of draconian way. I blame the genes. I've got one INTJ and one (I think) En/sTJ - the last one is the bossy one. ;-)


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## YYC

I have a 7, 5, 3 year old and baby coming in June, and all I can say right now is it gets more expensive every year due to the activities which they are in. The 7 year old is in more activities than the 5 year old, who is in more than the 3 year old, who is not really in much yet, but will be getting into the age where she can do stuff this fall when she turns 4. We're aware that these activities are not "must haves" however we are able to afford them and we feel they provide good skills and learning for our kids. We'll see how it goes as they get older. From what I have heard, if they get passionate about something and want to become elite at it, private coaching/lessons/etc get even more expensive, of course.


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## coptzr

Good topic...just finished reading the whole thread. Don't know where to start with my opinion yet.


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## RCB

For my husband and I, it was first baby years and right now with two at 16 and 19. Stay at home mom by sacrificial choice, and we don't regret it.

While we have double the income now, it's expensive. Driving school x 2= $1,950 plus licence fees, plus $1,200 per year insurance increase, gas, etc. Post-secondary education.

#1 is just finishing an accelerated one year program at the local college, $10,000 in tuition, fees, books. She has paid all of it herself, working two jobs for two years, and received student loans. Those loans start accruing interest at the end of this month, so she paid them off the other day. She cried as she sat at the computer, withdrawing the $8,000 from her TFSA. As #2 will be heading to university next year, and we will be kicking in, we recently told #1 we will kick in the $10,000 she spent on school towards a non-junker car, once she has a job that will allow her to pay the insurance and remaining amount of the car. She already has $2,000 towards the car in her TFSA.

#2 has worked since she was 12, and has had two jobs for more than two years. She sent herself to Europe on her own dime this past March Break, to the tune of $3,600. She has a few K left towards school. We have recently started contributing to an RESP for her, taking advantage of max grants for previous years, contributing $5,000 per year. She's shorting us time to save, as she is completing high school in three years instead of four. Next year will be a minimum of $18,000 for school, res, meal plan. She cannot get the same degree locally, and will need to do post-grad work, as well (genetics/microbiology). We want to do as much as we are able to for her, as she works so hard for herself.

We are very proud of both of our "happy accidents" (love that phrase), and would do it all over again. We have gone into the business of supplying quality student housing, to supply me with retirement savings and help #2 with school.


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## Jon_Baker

It think it depends on how parents choose to raise their kids. When my kids were small, most of their toys were second hand passed on from their cousins. But even then we had a huge list to pay for their diapers, baby food, baby supplies etc. When they started going to school, these were replaced by school fees, school accessories and activities. But all these seems to be much better when compared to our current expense. Every year when the school reopens, our budget will go haywire. But later on we learned how to manage the school expenses. ( See this https://www.prudentfinancial.net/back-school-budget-tips-parents/) . As for their college, my parents had invested money to cover their fees. Also both my kids are going for part time job in between their studies. And fortunately both of them got placed in reputed firms which provide them with fat cheques each month.


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## rachgin

My kids are very young, so I don't have experience to draw on, but I imagine you can vary your kids' yearly costs based on what's important to you at the time. I like saving money by buying used toys and clothes. I believe I can keep up with this for years. In the teen years, kids can have part time jobs so they can have what they particularly want (expensive clothes, sports involvement, a car, etc). My kids will likely need braces at the pre-teen age, so there's a few thousand dollars each. Then at the post-secondary age, there's paying for a wedding, or helping pay for a wedding, likely.


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## CalgaryPotato

Like others have said, what's mandatory and what's nice is important, also the specific situation is important. 

My children are still young (6,8) but some things to think about. How much larger of a residence would you purchase if there were kids in the picture. In theory you don't need a lot more space with kids, but reality for my wife and I was we went from a house where we lived up, rented down and didn't even use our 3rd bedroom, to feeling like our whole house is too cramped. In the interest of frugality we've resisted upgrading to a bigger house (while everyone else we know has) but it's not easy.

Also it becomes of much greater importance the neighborhood you live in. If you're adults and you just got to work and come home, who cares if you live in a bad neighborhood with less desirable schools. But it could be a major deterrent if you have children. 

The biggest thing for my family was my children both needed speech therapy, occupational therapy, etc. Much of that was funded or co-funded by the government. But we quickly realized that my wife wouldn't be able to return to work after her second mat leave like originally planned. When my younger son finally gets settle into grade one, and my wife starts looking for a job again, she'll have missed 5 full years of work (unplanned not counting maternity leaves). That is an enormous financial loss to our family.

Also many families find they have to make job choices to jobs that pay slightly lower but have better benefits or are more accommodating with time off for appointments, sick days and such. 

Another thing to consider for those that want larger families, is once you go past 4 people, for whatever reasons, vacations are a skyrocketing price. Often times changing that # of people from 4 to 5 on expedia or whatever site you use, will double the cost of your trip. Sure with young kids, you can sometimes lie and just book it for 4, but it is a consideration.

Those are just some of the things to think of as far as young children go. 

For the older ages post secondary can be the biggest expense or none at all. Remember that you are not obligated to pay for your children to go to college, especially if they are going out of town and hoping you'll pay every single expense. You also aren't obligated to help them with mortgages or grand children's education down the road. It's awesome if you can, but I'd consider those much more optional high cost expenses.


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## rocky

As I look back, the most expensive time is when my two sons were young, before kindergarten: the formula milk, diapers, and day care were expensive. The 2nd expensive phase is when my two sons went to an out-of-town university that cost me $100,000 (tuition and living expenses) each for 4 yrs.


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## IFITSTOBEITSUP2ME

It depends how you handle each stage and how YOU chose to live. For us we have never been keep up with the Jone's or having to buy the latest fad brand now item or electronic. So for us apart from general food increase as they got older and bigger appetites, clean clothes = basically another mouth or two to feed, drive around we didn't find any phase specifically more expensive than the other. Below may explain why and the end result if it helps?

When they were born, bought good as new second hand everything, as they grow out of it all so quickly. Breast fed so zero formula to buy, never a bottle or soother teat in their mouths. Reared on mashed up versions of our meals so no baby foods. Used cloth diapers, so a little more washing and detergent use, but no diapers bought. Hubby and I juggled our jobs and work self employed around each other so no daycare or babysitting expenses. Managed with one vehicle so sacrificed bundling them up early in the back of the vehicle to take hubby to work for 5am start when youngest was 4 years old for over 11mths. When started school did school run or on school bus, and juggled our jobs around their schedules. When they were both 14 prepped resumes for them and helped them secure part time jobs to understand the value of a dollar, and the deal was they had to save 50% and could do whatever they wanted with the other 50%. Eldest graduated Grade 12 at age 16, and unfortunately decided by 17+ wanted to work not complete higher education (can't live their lives for them). Youngest wanted to take 2 years off at 18 upon Graduation of Grade 12, so knowing we are you either are in education or you are working, she took her real estate license and still possesses that today. Was youngest licensed realtor we are aware of at the time.

Rule of the house is no rent whilst in school and getting results, we won't throw good money after bad just for them to waste time in school, so if you don't get the results, then you pay your next tuition semester and if you pass we refund after the fact. If not in school, have to work something and pay nominal rent at home to realize cost of life. Youngest went to Uni to become teacher at age 20 and still is there, we helped her to buy her first property and she rents out the rooms to other students complete with all the hassles that go with it, but she's student debt free, does work PT as well and has built equity and with TFSA's will come out in 2 years fully qualified with probably over a $100,000 net worth, currently aged 24. Not too shabby eh?

Eldest on the other hand has turned into a spend what I have now pay check to pay check but zero debt we think, at aged 31. She paid about 6 weeks rent to us when deciding to quit schooling always said she wanted to be a vet (we saved $100K towards that to help her initially), but she went working Walmart full time. Decided to move out just before 18 as felt if she was paying rent didn't want the restrictions of our mini house rules. She truly broke our hearts with her decision, but as we never wanted the rent in the first place, on her 18th birthday gave her it all back as part of her Birthday which she was surprised at and of course squandered it. Initial idea was any rent the kids paid us we would put away for when they first moved out to return as a lump sum or when they got married as an unexpected windfall during an expensive time for them. 

Eldest 31 never married still renting. Youngest 24 in Uni, own house, debt free with close to six figure net worth. Both reared the same way, with same love, look like twins visually, but one independently doing real well for herself, her 7 year older sister says she's happy with her paycheque to paycheque lifestyle. What can you do?

This was our choice and might not be yours but, we did what we needed to in order to make ends meet at various stages of our lives and our children's lives and avoided debt at all cost, whilst remaining hands on parents. We know we are the exception to the rule, as we see tons of new parents and to be parents buying millions of outfits, toys and more that their children will hardly use before they get cast aside. So bottom line is, really it's down to you as the parent as to how you want the expenses of raising a child to pan out and what you are willing to sacrifice to achieve that both emotionally and financially.


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## passionate1

You have to ask yourself why you are having children in the first place? My goal is to raise happy, healthy, independent and productive members of our future society. So "giving them the best of everything" really isn't a requirement for those purposes. My babies were breastfeed and used cloth diapers (cost me $200 in total but he was toilet trained by 20 months). All of my baby furniture and clothes were FREE. I asked all the women I knew and I was overwhelmed with stuff. You'd be surprised what would happen if you just ask.

We made the decision not to stay home with our two because of the careers that we built. Unfortunately or fortunately, my career took off after my second and final child. I suspect the fact that I was done having children was the reason and it shouldn't be. But my husband does shift work to avoid high daycare costs. We have a retired woman who needs the money but wouldn't like it full time. So she fills in the couple of hours when their are gaps in our schedules. Mutually beneficial.

Our high cost is SPORTS. Both boys play ice hockey, ball hockey, lacrosse and soccer. Gas, equipment, fees and "team funds"...fundraisers...it is a lot. This is about $3K/yr for one son. This is a choice! We can afford it and he loves it. He loves the exercise and it keeps him focused and happy to sit in school. Most of our equipment is second hand from relatives. I recently tried to find lacrosse stuff in our son's size and couldn't. Our neighbour overhead this conversation in our driveway and the next day we found a tub of hockey and lacrosse equipment on our doorstep. ALL of it will be happily used by our boys!

I think the costs of raising children calculators are ridiculous. Every day you make a choice about whether to spend money or your children or not. Some big - private school? And some small - McDonalds today? Disneyland or camping trip this year? After 18 years, the amounts would be dramatically different.


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## pooja.majorgainz

Perfect Thread

I love all the comments and trust me they all are awesome posts


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