# Scotia call center and voice recognition



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Just a heads up, on my last call to the Scotia call center, service was much slower and it's clearly been outsourced to a foreign center. From their accents I will guess the Philippines. I think I used to encounter Canadian phone reps so this appears to be a change.

The other big change going on is that Scotia is starting to transition people to voice recognition (or voice authorization, voice print). TD Direct Investing does this as well.

Be careful when signing up with that. I had one US bank require me to do this, and after registration, I was unable to phone back in. My voice kept being rejected and eventually they sent me to a representative who had a very long quiz for me. In the end I was able to gain access again but I didn't appreciate getting locked out because they forced me to do the voice recognition. In my case, the problem is the quality of the calls on the cell phone I use. Sometimes I get a clear line but other times I get a bit of a noisy line. I think this was what was causing me to get denied.

When the Filipino Scotia rep said "and we are now enrolling you in voice authentication" I said ... no you're not! I don't consent to this. But obviously they are phasing it in, so expect to get "enrolled" soon.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Scotiabank? or Scotia iTrade? Or? 

I rarely have a need to phone in either way but when I do (to iTrade), it is with a Relationship Manager in TO. But while I am at it, Scotiabank's Secure Message is pretty useless.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I called Scotiabank, 800-472-6842


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Well that's good to know, won't be signing for that!

I was actually in the branch today and all the people are new again, what a high turn over banks have now.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Just a heads up, on my last call to the Scotia call center, service was much slower and it's clearly been outsourced to a foreign center. From their accents I will guess the Philippines. I think I used to encounter Canadian phone reps so this appears to be a change.



not sure about the location you've suggested for the call centre. Philippine based call centres tend to have US american accents, or other mild accents overlaid with mild US inflection.

scotiabank itself is definitely using call centres in mexico, possibly other latin countries. As you know, an important foreign focus of scotia's global operations has always been latin america. More than any other canadian bank, scotia has built a far-flung banking empire throughout central & south america.

jas4 if what you heard was a spanish accent, it would likely be coming from mexico city.





> The other big change going on is that Scotia is starting to transition people to voice recognition (or voice authorization, voice print). TD Direct Investing does this as well.
> 
> Be careful when signing up with that.



indeed one should be very careful. Body parts such as voice ID, fingerprints or iris eyeball recognition belong to us as individual human beings, not to any bank or commercial institution that asks for them. 

such a bank or commercial institution will then own those indelible parts of our physical iidentity for the rest of our lives on earth. The ID material can easily be sold to, or stolen by, other parties, including criminal parties. 

considering the conspicuous hacking into e-ID at all levels of government & commerce these days, one can say that it's almost inevitable that one's permanent body part ID will get hacked or stolen at some point in time. Me i think we should be extremely prudent about handing it out.

TD has been very gallant, so far, about cooperating with clients who don't sign up for voice recognition. I hope their leadership example will continue.

.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

All they do for voice print is record your voice.

Most call centers have that recorded disclaimer at the start that this call is being recorded... I'm from the east coast so half the people I grew up with work at call centers. They already know your voice.

Most apps probably have access to your smartphone mic as well. Smartphone doesn't even have to be on to access the mic


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## *PetePerfectMan* (Jan 24, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Just a heads up, on my last call to the Scotia call center, service was much slower and it's clearly been outsourced to a foreign center. From their accents I will guess the Philippines. I think I used to encounter Canadian phone reps so this appears to be a change.


Philippines call center has an American accent and doesn't mean you spoke to a call center and you GUESS it's from the Philippines then the service was slower? Come on, don't blame the agents, blame the process.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> I called Scotiabank, 800-472-6842



that's the bank, not the broker

scotiabank has had call centres in mexico for some time now, i'm pretty sure you reached mexico city

scotia iTrade call centres are probably still located in canada. Last i heard the license which all broker reps must obtain requires the reps to live in canada. Until that regulation gets changed, all broker call centres will likely remain in this country


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes, this was for the bank, not the brokerage. I'm pretty sure it was the Philippines based on past experience with call centers. No hint of Spanish.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

*PetePerfectMan* said:


> Philippines call center has an American accent and doesn't mean you spoke to a call center and you GUESS it's from the Philippines then the service was slower? Come on, don't blame the agents, blame the process.


Yes they have an American-ish accent, usually it's quite a smooth and American sounding (superficially) but when you listen closely there is a hint of something foreign. Over the years I've learned which country these usually are, and this one sounded like the Philippines. Another tipoff is that although they almost sound North American, once you talk about more complex issues you will find that they don't quite have 100% English proficiency... but they are very good at the basic conversation which sounds like an almost native English speaker.

IMO the Indian call centers were actually better from the perspective of English comprehension and proficiency. A higher level of English language skill there, despite the thicker accent.

Separate from that, the wait was very long before reaching an agent. Nothing against the Philippines.

My criticism is directed at Scotiabank themselves. They should have Canadian call centers and employ Canadians to do this work.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

tdw voice print has worked flawlessly for me, never failed once

i always wonder how much of our data those overseas call centre's have and whether the csr's sometimes sell it to their cousins to make a little extra on the side :bi_polo:


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

fatcat said:


> tdw voice print has worked flawlessly for me, never failed once


It works fine for me too, but another voice print that I use in the US has failed for me. So perhaps TD bought a good one, but they don't all work so well. Beware.



> i always wonder how much of our data those overseas call centre's have and whether the csr's sometimes sell it to their cousins to make a little extra on the side :bi_polo:


Right. How much do you think the identity of a Canadian might be worth on the black market?

Stealing it would be as simple as wearing a small recording device when you come into work. You hold onto the details for a while, then sell them to a friend of relative. In Canada we'd have more legal recourse but someone doing this in a foreign country can easily get away with it with no consequences.

I think of this every time the overseas agent asks: "and your mother's maiden name?"

We don't have any stats on this, but I'm curious to know how much of the domestic identity theft actually occurs due to data leakage via foreign countries used for outsourcing of these critical tasks. Years ago when my employer started outsourcing HR to a third-world country, I couldn't believe it. These people (in Malaysia I think) had access to all my banking data, SIN, private details.

I think this is why it's also just about impossible to prevent identity theft. Your data is getting out there no matter what you do, because some company you deal with has outsourced these activities to another jurisdiction where it's more of a free-for-all.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

right james, it is perhaps wise to go about your business in life assuming that all this data is in the ether, i know that my full package is out there ... social and sin, address, email, phone, all the building blocks

i frankly think that td bank and tdw, as much as they are trying, are not nearly doing enough

we need to improve credit protection, passport and drivers license, health cards, banking ... all of it ... it is still primitive

this is where biometrics may prove useful


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

fatcat said:


> right james, it is perhaps wise to go about your business in life assuming that all this data is in the ether, i know that my full package is out there ... social and sin, address, email, phone, all the building blocks
> 
> i frankly think that td bank and tdw, as much as they are trying, are not nearly doing enough
> 
> ...


SSN and SIN were never meant for identification. Neither were provincial driver's licence. We just use them for ID because Americans get really upset when you suggest better ID cards, and Canadians just copy what Americans do for some reason. Yet most of the rest of the world already has electronic ID cards. Many have biometrics, 2FA PINS and replace several other government ID cards like health cards. It makes basic sense for a developed country, especially when you consider things like voter fraud. Even most undeveloped countries already have them. The whole American repulsion with government ID just makes ID theft and fraud far worse.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And honestly, most of these are just bad corporate practices, and bad ideas. There are better solutions today.

In my line of work we advise institutions on better approaches for security and privacy. It can be done a lot better, and some companies do it. Unfortunately there are few companies willing to pay professionals like me to make proper systems.

But the reality is that if even Equifax can get away with letting everyone's data get stolen, and not have their business ruined by lawsuits... nobody is going to give a damn about security.

Create stronger laws that create massive penalties for allowing private data to get stolen, and suddenly you'll see security improvements.


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## MyCatMittens (Oct 20, 2015)

james4beach said:


> Unfortunately there are few companies willing to pay professionals like me to make proper systems.


Respectfully, this is ridiculous. The demand for Info Security practitioners is huge. Companies are demanding professionals and can't find anywhere near enough of them. Twenty years ago, I would have agreed with you.

"The unprecedented demand for well-trained cybersecurity workers continues to grow. Some experts predict that there will be a global shortage of two million cybersecurity professionals by next year. This is critical considering the increase in cyberattacks and the erosion of consumer trust in the ability to protect the internet."


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think there is a difference between client demand for security, and willingness to pay for high quality robust security. Think it is the latter point J4B is getting at. CEO's and CFO's hate paying big bucks for something they don't understand and don't appreciate.


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## MyCatMittens (Oct 20, 2015)

AltaRed said:


> I think there is a difference between client demand for security, and willingness to pay for high quality robust security. Think it is the latter point J4B is getting at. CEO's and CFO's hate paying big bucks for something they don't understand and don't appreciate.


While they may not understand the technical nuances, Info Sec is most certainly a topic being discussed at the executive management/board level in any large organization. Given it is frequently listed as a topic that keep CEO's up at night, I'm sure they fully appreciate the consequences of not having it. If it was simply just a matter of spend, I doubt you could find any large organization that wouldn't just cut a cheque to make the problem(s) go away.

With respect to this thread, I think the bigger issue is the trade-off every organization has to make between security and customer impact. Every customer has a certain threshold for impact. If we use this thread example, for voice print (I don't work/bank at Scotia so I can't comment on the reliability), we have "oh - they are recording me". If you were to deploy a token to people ("they didn't give me enough of them", "what if I lose them").. and inevitably a "large" number of customers would just move to another FI. 

Anyways, sorry to derail the thread. Just when I read that organizations aren't willing to spend, I had to comment


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

i don't know where you get the idea that organizations are willing to spend for security, if they were, we wouldn't have had so many egregious and outrageous security breaches

for most companies security gives every appearance of being an afterthought

james has it right the penalties need to be boneshaking and then they will begin to get it right

part of the problem is that as a society, we haven't been able to quantify and put a price on privacy and decide what matters and what the stuff that matters is worth


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

^+1 Well said.


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## MyCatMittens (Oct 20, 2015)

fatcat said:


> i don't know where you get the idea that organizations are willing to spend for security, if they were, we wouldn't have had so many egregious and outrageous security breaches
> 
> 
> fatcat said:
> ...


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

two things, we need to put a price on privacy, privacy has to have agreed upon measurable value, i think that it is possible to find a way to do this that will allow a wide range of permissions for different levels of personal concern

second, as to the technological feasibility of safeguarding privacy and personal data, it just has to matter about as much as the construction and coding of atm-cash machines, when was the last time you got $80 instead of the $60 you punched in ? ... it does happen but it is very goddamn rare 

or the accuracy of your td waterhouse or td bank account ? mistakes happen but they are rare

why ? because it involves money ... when it involves measurable, immediate, quantifiable sums, golly, companies can do amazing things to make their security perform quite well thank you


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## MyCatMittens (Oct 20, 2015)

fatcat said:


> two things, we need to put a price on privacy, privacy has to have agreed upon measurable value, i think that it is possible to find a way to do this that will allow a wide range of permissions for different levels of personal concern


Why not just enforce adequate disclosure laws/contractual obligations and let the market/customer decide? And what do you consider "privacy"? (the definition as per PIPEDA? specifically PII?). Some data may have much different values, and in some cases, at very different time periods. What if someone breaks into your home and steals some paper records you have that have my personal information? Do I get to sue you/your company? Or are you only concerned with electronic records? Would it matter what controls are in place or how it happened? 



fatcat said:


> second, as to the technological feasibility of safeguarding privacy and personal data, it just has to matter about as much as the construction and coding of atm-cash machines, when was the last time you got $80 instead of the $60 you punched in ? ... it does happen but it is very goddamn rare


I don't know many ATM machines that are directly Internet connected and can be attacked from other countries? Do you? Seems comparing an "appliance" (very closed ecosystem) to an agile developed mobile/Internet application used by thousands of users (with new features constantly being added based on user demand) might not be the same. Read these threads.. there are lots of them where customers are demanding new features that competitors have. How much ATM innovation have you seen recently? You are comparing doing adequate application QA against protecting against malicious individuals who are purposely trying to break into something.



fatcat said:


> why ? because it involves money ... when it involves measurable, immediate, quantifiable sums, golly, companies can do amazing things to make their security perform quite well thank you


No. Because those aren't even remotely possible comparisons. Security breaches already cost significant amounts of money. "Make their security"? You do realize there isn't a security enabled button, right?  Try reviewing millions of lines of code and telling me *all * of the faults. There are tools to assist, there are red teams to try and break in, standards developed, reviews performed - none of these are guarantees. 

If you have a magic security button, or suggestions on how to "make their security perform quite well", then there is an entire industry willing to listen to you. Believe me, it isn't that easy. If it was, these things wouldn't happen. It isn't just because "nobody cares or is willing to pay". That is a massive oversimplification. I'd also like to see more prosecution and coordination (globally) against people committing these crimes. More education in the legal system, more resources to fight it. There is definitely more of this in some industries, but still fairly immature.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

MyCatMittens said:


> Why not just enforce adequate disclosure laws/contractual obligations and let the market/customer decide? And what do you consider "privacy"? (the definition as per PIPEDA? specifically PII?). Some data may have much different values, and in some cases, at very different time periods. What if someone breaks into your home and steals some paper records you have that have my personal information? Do I get to sue you/your company? Or are you only concerned with electronic records? Would it matter what controls are in place or how it happened?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


simple, easy peasy ... td bank and td waterhouse are both connected to the internet ... let them (and every other company that holds our data) put as much energy, hardware and software into guarding our data as they do guarding our money and it will all work out fine


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow, I just got a very interesting phone agent on the line (Chase credit cards). The man had an almost-American accent, and had somehow trained himself with a southern American twang. Very fascinating... after speaking with him a bit more, clearly he was foreign. I would probably guess Philippines again but perhaps there are other call centers in the world who are getting better at faking the American accent.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'd be all for getting rid of brick and mortar banks in every little town in Canada in exchange for Canadian call center reps. Surely the call center reps would cost less. East coast Canada is full of call centers and after some experience a lot of them can work from home if they want. All they need is internet, computer, headset and software and they get to tax deduct the office space. I know east coasters who do this from home and they all serve Americans. Apparently east coast is cheap labour for americans and our accent is close enough

I don't buy the argument that security is too expensive when we have brick and mortar banks in every small town serving a few senior citizens and up selling them services they don't need. I doubt those brick and mortar banks are cheap or worth maintaining anymore. 2-factor-authentication costs very little and many solutions already exist. Most major websites already have the option. Most people don't use it because they are ignorant but at least give us the option to use 2FA. I think banking will change a lot as the generations change.

I already log into Tangerine with touch ID and my unique TD passwords are protected by touch ID. Yet it doesn't add any security because the weakest link is still my mother's maiden name, home address and birth date (the most basic of doxxing) There is no option for 2FA to lock them down to a physical device in either account. I'm thankful that TD Bank US uses voice print because now if someone tried to reset my password or change my address with my simple basic info they would fail. I much prefer the voice print over answering those "security questions" every call


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## *PetePerfectMan* (Jan 24, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Yes they have an American-ish accent, usually it's quite a smooth and American sounding (superficially) but when you listen closely there is a hint of something foreign. Over the years I've learned which country these usually are, and this one sounded like the Philippines. Another tipoff is that although they almost sound North American, once you talk about more complex issues you will find that they don't quite have 100% English proficiency... but they are very good at the basic conversation which sounds like an almost native English speaker.
> 
> IMO the Indian call centers were actually better from the perspective of English comprehension and proficiency. A higher level of English language skill there, despite the thicker accent.
> 
> ...



Okay, I hope you will not encounter the same scenario on the future.
I won't compare Philippines call center agent to Indian call center agent. The issue was on Scotiabank.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Neat, today I called Scotiabank again and got someone with a Spanish accent, very different from the other. So I'm guessing today I reached the Mexican call center.

These two data points suggest to me they are using both Mexico and Philippines.


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## coolspot (May 29, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Neat, today I called Scotiabank again and got someone with a Spanish accent, very different from the other. So I'm guessing today I reached the Mexican call center.
> 
> These two data points suggest to me they are using both Mexico and Philippines.


Scotiabank has contact centres in Canada, Mexico, and Colombia... Yes, your call can be routed to any of the CCs. They're also Scotia employees and not outsourced if that makes you feel any better :05.18-flustered:


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Yes, this was for the bank, not the brokerage. I'm pretty sure it was the Philippines based on past experience with call centers. No hint of Spanish.





james4beach said:


> I called Scotiabank, 800-472-6842


Out of curiosity, I just called that number. To my ear, the woman who answered did not sound Filipino. I spoke to her in Tagalog. I was apparent that she did not understand a word. I have found that most call centers in the Phils are based in Makati, the Manila business district, where Tagalog is the lingua franca, since some of the employees speak Tagalog, some Ilocano, some Cebuano, etc. But Tagalog (or Filipino) is pretty much universal. 

When I kept on in Tagalog, the agent tried briefly to communicate in another language that may have been Spanish and then in the worst French I ever heard, obviously being read from a card (with "s'll vous plait" pronounced "sill voos plate"), offering to transfer my call to someone else. At that point I decided not to let her know that I spoke English and was just having her on, so I thanked her in Tagalog and hung up.

I have encountered a number of Filipino call centers and never one where Filipinos would pretend not to speak their own language. They are quite happy to speak Tagalog with someone from another country. So, maybe when james4 called that # it was answered in the RP; today it was not, which suggests that coolspot is right about variable routing.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Mukhang pera said:


> Out of curiosity, I just called that number. To my ear, the woman who answered did not sound Filipino. I spoke to her in Tagalog. I was apparent that she did not understand a word. I have found that most call centers in the Phils are based in Makati, the Manila business district, where Tagalog is the lingua franca, since some of the employees speak Tagalog, some Ilocano, some Cebuano, etc. But Tagalog (or Filipino) is pretty much universal.
> 
> When I kept on in Tagalog, the agent tried briefly to communicate in another language that may have been Spanish and then in the worst French I ever heard, obviously being read from a card (with "s'll vous plait" pronounced "sill voos plate"), offering to transfer my call to someone else. At that point I decided not to let her know that I spoke English and was just having her on, so I thanked her in Tagalog and hung up.
> 
> I have encountered a number of Filipino call centers and never one where Filipinos would pretend not to speak their own language. They are quite happy to speak Tagalog with someone from another country. So, maybe when james4 called that # it was answered in the RP; today it was not, which suggests that coolspot is right about variable routing.



lol look out BNS mexico city u are going to receive a bunch of test calls

that "voo" sound - long-drawn-out "oooo" - for french "vous" suggests a spanish speaker


PS another call centre country where local staff can sound dead-ringer american is el Salvador


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