# Teens think they'll earn 90k/yr by age 30



## Sherlock

Recent high school grads surveyed, and here are the results:

-On average, they expect to be earning nearly $91,000 annually 10 years from now – that’s roughly three times the average income of 25 to 29 years-olds with post-secondary degrees, according to 2006 Census data from Statistics Canada.
-Nearly three-quarters expect to own a home in the next 10 years. According to estimates from Statistics Canada, only about 42 per cent of 25 to 29-year-olds are homeowners.
- Almost half of those with a student loan say they plan to have it paid off in five years.

http://www.moneyville.ca/blog/post/1079787--teens-think-they-ll-earn-90-000-a-year-by-age-30

Realistic expectations, or are these teens crazy?


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## KaeJS

1&3 are crazy.

2 is not. Its easy to get a home.


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## mind_business

They're unrealistic, but so was I when I was their age. When I got my first job I remember expecting a 20% increase in my first year LOL.


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## DanFo

I did it so why can't they?? Realistic....probably not for most, but I bet they can get close to it if they chose the right career path with a little luck on the side.


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## mind_business

It's easy to get a home, but difficult to own one. I don't consider a home to be 'owned' until the bank has been paid off.


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## jcgd

Many tradespeople can hit those number with hard work. You can get up to around $75k for a regular work week in Canada. When you get into the specialized stuff, like elevator techs, you can make some extraordinary dough for someone without much schooling. $90-130k isn't unheard of.

Just saying, but I agree that it's crazy that so many kids think they will do so well. The number that gets me is that apparently 42% have houses. That is way too many.


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## emperor

#1 100% If they work a trade in Northern Alberta 10 years from now and the oil industry is still going. 

#2 and #3 depends on if they become a crack addict that buys a jacked up truck, a pair of million dollar sunglasses and a straight brimmed hat.


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## Plugging Along

I have to admit that I don't see anything wrong with it. These are the expectations (actually higher) that my siblings have instilled in my neices and nephews. I have similiar expectations of my kids (except they aren't even in grade school yet). 

I realize that not all, if that many at all will acheive those goals. I don't think it's unreasonable, as all the kids in our family were able to acheive the said above. That was growing up in a lower income immigrant family, with students loans, etc. 

I see nothing with aiming high, but also developing strategies and a clear plan to get to those goals. I see people who aim really high, but it's unrealistic as they don't have a plan, or their plan is not reality, I see people who aim too low, and get what they aim for, but not much more. I think with some of these teens, they need a reality check or someone to help them work out a plan.


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## crazyjackcsa

I have more problems with a study that expects straight answers from high school students.

I know if I was filling it out at that age, I'd try to skew the results high or low. Heck, I probably still would.

At the same time, I'm sure you'd get even crazier numbers if you asked grade schoolers. Those crazy kids don't know nuttin'!


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## Dmoney

I think it's great to aspire to succeed, but most of these kids are out of touch with reality. Under 12% of *all workers* in Canada make over $75,000 according to stats canada, in 2009. Barely 5% make over $100K.

This is all working Canadians, aged 15-65+. People with set careers who have moved up the corporate ladder. 

I'm aiming to make 6 figures before I turn 30, and I'm 2/3 of the way there with over 7 years to go. Unfortunately, the rest of my cohort is mostly still unemployed, pouring coffees or putting in the hours and not getting the reward.


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## Sherlock

emperor said:


> #1 100% If they work a trade in Northern Alberta 10 years from now and the oil industry is still going.


Sure but with how much overtime? I'd rather make less and have a good work/life balance. No point in making lots of money if you have no time to enjoy it.


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## KaeJS

^ I rather do the opposite.

The more time spent at work, making money, the faster your wealth increases because you are making money and not out spending it.


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## the-royal-mail

You'll burn out, Kae.

Balance is *very* important.


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## jcgd

Working up north isn't typical and isn't what I mean. I can go up north tomorrow and clear what I make in a year in six months. But there are jobs like elevator techs, aircraft mechanics, heavy duty mechanics, etc. that are making $40+ an hour. I work a straight, 40 hour week because life is more important that money to me. If I found something I really enjoyed I might work a bit more.

At the same time, I don't think your salary counts if you make $100k/yr but you work 60 hour weeks. That's more like $70k/yr plus overtime.

A guy at my work told me he's going back to be a doctor. He wants to make about $300k and I told him you better be a business man and have your own practice, etc. I've never met a family doctor making much over $100k, and they work for every penny.


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## mind_business

KaeJS, if you're all about making money, and that's not a bad thing at your age, you should try your hand in the Alberta Oil Sands industry. Brutally long hours, lonely type existence as you have to live in camps, but you make a boat load of money. Not a bad thing to do for a few years when you're young.


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## donald

What makes everybody think a tradesman does his job just for money?Is it not possiable that some enjoy working on projects?working with a team?creating something you can touch and feel?Like being on your feet and moving?being in a fast paced enviroment?

Some perfer that to a cubicle you know.


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## DanFo

Than your spouse leaves you for the neighbour since you were never home to attend to their needs and you lose Half of everthing plus support !!! Kidding but only sorta, I work shift and it's not unheard of especially for the folks that sop up every OT shift offered. ...I work the odd OT shift to cover extra's like a vacation.


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## Plugging Along

jcgd said:


> Working up north isn't typical and isn't what I mean. I can go up north tomorrow and clear what I make in a year in six months. But there are jobs like elevator techs, aircraft mechanics, heavy duty mechanics, etc. that are making $40+ an hour. I work a straight, 40 hour week because life is more important that money to me. If I found something I really enjoyed I might work a bit more.
> 
> At the same time, I don't think your salary counts if you make $100k/yr but you work 60 hour weeks. That's more like $70k/yr plus overtime.
> 
> A guy at my work told me he's going back to be a doctor. He wants to make about $300k and I told him you better be a business man and have your own practice, etc. I've never met a family doctor making much over $100k, and they work for every penny.



Most of the family dr I know make at least $150k avg. That's not anyone with a specialty either. 

Here's the thing, for many in order to get the six figue income, a standard punch the clock 9-5 attitude isn't going to cut, at least not at first. There are very few jobs six figure jobs that are going to be just handed over to someone who wants the 'work life balance'. 

When I first started working, life kae, I volunteered to take all the overtime and work the tough projects and because I was salaried I did not get any addition money for it. However, I did get the reputation as being a hard worker, team player, able to multi task, and I got more experience than others for the same time. I moved on tougher assignments and gained very valuable experience. I was one of the fastest moving people in a large (14000 people org). It was not uncommon for me to work 80 hour weeks. Though I didn't get paid more per hour, I did get higher and higher promotions. At one point I people reporting to me 30 years my senior. I did have the six figure salary.

The pace became very difficult to manage with two kids, so I decided to slow down. I took a slower paced job, but because I had the experiences I did I was still able to command a lower six figure salary, and now have a much better work life balance. I still have more experience than most of my colleges who are in their 50's.

My point is, if one really wants that salary or whatever it is, they have to be willing to work for it. My advice to young people is to work their butt off in the beginning and establish yourself before you really need a more balance with family.


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## Plugging Along

DanFo said:


> Than your spouse leaves you for the neighbour since you were never home to attend to their needs and you lose Half of everthing plus support !!! Kidding but only sorta, I work shift and it's not unheard of especially for the folks that sop up every OT shift offered. ...I work the odd OT shift to cover extra's like a vacation.


That's where I was really lucky. Both my spouse and I were where on the same page with building our careers early. We used to both travel so much that we would often see each for the first time in weeks as one was flying home while the other was leaving for their next business trip. We did this for years, until it was time to have kids, then we switched jobs.


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## Daniel A.

The kids are completely out of touch with reality, the poll only goes to show by how much.
Yes there are jobs that can produce six figure money as was mentioned less than 5% of the millions working make that.
Before retiring I was making that but that is not the norm for most.

The goal of the poll was to show how out of touch the young ones are.
How did they get that way ?


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## donald

Got that way because every kid born from 1980 on was told they are special,by parents,teachers ect.

Problem is dad and mom forgot to add the "world" doesnt give a crap how special you think you are.....im way too cynical lol


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## jcgd

How come us young people get so much crap from the generations before us? Our grandparent decided they weren't going to save any money, except within houses, so we get to pay for all of them to retire, and our parents have never done a thing, except sit in parks smoking the green. They are the generation who complained about everything. We were brought up the way we were, we had no say in it. 

We are supposed to be the lazy, ungrateful generation, yet because of those before me I can't give my kid a smack, my kids will have no repercussions, and we have this lovely world economy I get to deal with while my parents retire and forget about the mess the world is in. There's not a lot you can royally screw up before your 20, and now we get to figure how to fix this mess.

Donald, I'm not sure if you are saying it's our fault, or the generation who raised us.


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## MoneyGal

Well...was the sample in any way representative? 

I know that only a small fraction of the population earns $90K and above, but it looks like they surveyed people who went on to university (not just "teens in general." What fraction of high-schoolers complete university degrees?)

Earning $90K before 30 if you have a completed university degree in a desireable field and are willing to work hard *and* get some lucky breaks seems very do-able to me. I know the luck part is largely uncontrollable but I was raised by people who repeated to me over and over, "you make your own luck." 

And what's wrong with having goals; aiming high?


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## donald

Jcgd,i was born in 79....trust me im trying to figure this stuff out too along side you!Its not easy


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## jcgd

It could be different generations with different goals...

Silent and Boom Gen. : "I'm going to buy a big house to retire on."

Gex X: "Yeah, man..." "Loooooveee"

Gen Y: "My mom said I'm special. I'm going to make lots of money. No, I already have a house. I bought it when I turned 17. I only owe $700k. 0 down, but that's normal. It's different this time.


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## jcgd

donald said:


> Jcgd,i was born in 79....trust me im trying to figure this stuff out too along side you!Its not easy


Exactly, the way I see it, every generation is messed up in their own special way. And every era would have been better than our own, but we wont know if we pass or fail for another 30 years, when we talk garbage about our grandchildren. Who will, of course, be the generation who are screwing over the world...


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## KaeJS

jcgd said:


> We are supposed to be the lazy, ungrateful generation


Lol. It shows quite well in your post.


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## el oro

Sherlock said:


> Sure but with how much overtime? I'd rather make less and have a good work/life balance. No point in making lots of money if you have no time to enjoy it.


Your base pay would exceed the $91k so no overtime required. Also, the vacation time given each year is very, very generous. The trades people that do excessive amounts of overtime are making $200-300k, I believe. I don't know about the people living in the camps or the contractors, though. I'm talking about those that live in the city and take a coach bus (will have wifi soon) to and from work. The unjustified stigma attached to northern Alberta will keep wages inflated and vacation hours borderline excessive, and that's fine by me.


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## jcgd

KaeJS said:


> Lol. It shows quite well in your post.


Well, I just think you need to have some faith a generation will turn out alright.


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## KaeJS

It'll all turn out alright.

I think you had it right when you said that every generation is messed up in their own way. That's probably true.

Not sure when you were born, but I was born in 1990.

Every generation is going to be greedy. Nobody wants to pick up the slack.  And that goes for our parents, ourselves, and our offspring


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## jcgd

'87 for me.


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## peterk

Go '87s!

I expect to be making 90k+ by 30, btw


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## jcgd

Me too. But I doubt it'll be through my day job. I'll probably do stuff on the side to get some passive income.


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## Dmoney

'88... High expectations... would be interesting to see ages, salaries and expectations for 10 years from now... jobs/careers would be interesting to see.

23 in less than a month
Currently make 63K + 2 bonuses (could be anywhere from 2K-20K+)
Was told in the interview that my base salary could double in the next 5 years, so fingers crossed. Say 150K+ at 30.

Work in equity research, hopefully be a head analyst in 10years... or retired


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## KaeJS

Dmoney,

I am jealous.

Good for you, bud.


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## jcgd

That does look good. I'd like to switch careers, but I need to maintain my current income. I could get a degree, but no starting at $40k at graduation. For this, I'm not sure which path to take.


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## Dmoney

If I were to do anything else, it would likely be a trade. I have friends who are mining in northern Ontario making more money than me with little to no education. Got a cousin who's an electrician making more than me (overtime and can do side jobs). 

The downside in the financial industry is you work too many hours to do anything much on the side, and you can't really sell investment banking or analysis services on the side, so skills are mostly only transferable to managing your own money.


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## Dmoney

jcgd said:


> That does look good. I'd like to switch careers, but I need to maintain my current income. I could get a degree, but no starting at $40k at graduation. For this, I'm not sure which path to take.


What do you currently do? Can you get an apprenticeship? Anything where you get paid to get trained is ideal. No student debt, save while studying.


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## KaeJS

Yeah, but Dmoney... let's be real.

Mining? That would be horrible. 
Electrician? Not as bad as mining, but it would still suck.

I don't know about you, but I like my cushy desk job and I am happy to be a pen-pusher. Er..... mouse clicker*. 

And we both know if you actually know what you are doing, transferring your money skills to your personal life is the best thing anyone can ever do.


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## donald

One thing thats nice about trades people overlook is business ownership,its nice i can take off days in the week to do whatever and have my crew working being billed out...........thats the ultimate dividend!Your yield on it is probably about 60% you can bill a guys labour @ 40/hr and your paying him 22/hr,when you have 3 guys you can see how that works.

Than again its not that cut and dry and so many variables but you learn quickly that it is a soild way to wealth,even if your just a small shop.


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## jcgd

KaeJS said:


> Yeah, but Dmoney... let's be real.
> 
> Mining? That would be horrible.
> Electrician? Not as bad as mining, but it would still suck.


Hey! I'm an electrician!

I can't honestly say I like it, but as far as trades go, it's pretty cushy.


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## Dmoney

KaeJS said:


> Yeah, but Dmoney... let's be real.
> 
> Mining? That would be horrible.
> Electrician? Not as bad as mining, but it would still suck.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I like my cushy desk job and I am happy to be a pen-pusher. Er..... mouse clicker*.
> 
> And we both know if you actually know what you are doing, transferring your money skills to your personal life is the best thing anyone can ever do.


Mining would be awful, working in the oil patch would likely be awful, but I'd love to do something like carpentry or masonry, working on high-end homes, custom work, interiors. Would probably do it more as a hobby than a job but wouldn't mind making side income from it.

Granted, I think being able to work with and manage money is the ultimate skill because love it or hate it, there is massive wealth generated by simply moving numbers around. Get good at moving those numbers and you can literally create money out of thin air.

Nothing gets me going like when my dividends roll in at month end, or when I sell options that expire worthless. I look forward to the day that this 'passive' income exceeds my actual income. Although here's hoping that my employment income keeps growing rapidly.


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## DanFo

If you want to make the big bucks you can't be afraid of a little sweat.. usually as you work your way up in the trades you tend to sweat less and less..although added responsibilities can add to the stress levels sometimes.


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## Dmoney

jcgd said:


> Hey! I'm an electrician!
> 
> I can't honestly say I like it, but as far as trades go, it's pretty cushy.


You don't like it? My cousin seems to love it, and like many have mentioned, there is over time, side jobs (electrical work for family, friends etc., tax-free and in cash), and you can start a business once you have the experience.

At times I wish I was paid hourly so when I work an 18 hour day I make more than when I work 12.


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## Jon_Snow

Now in our late 30's, my wife and I have never made a cent over 60k individually... yet combine those two salaries and you have a very tidy family income... I say "family" with tongue firmly in cheek as there is just the two of us. Life is so darn good right now.


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## hystat

hopefully the message about trades and technical work will trickle down to the students in high school and hopefully it will appeal to some. The skills gap is brutal right now.
I have 120 jobs for probably 35 graduates this year (fingers crossed, some of these kids have checked out mentally.... medicated? addicted to something?...not sure what is going on). 
It is frustrating because some of these employers have invested big dollars into our program and we're phoning them telling them not to come for interview day because no one signed up for their company. 

Mechanical work has provided me a good lifestyle.
100K/year would be a piece of cake with a bit of overtime for a grad today. Young people can work 60h/wk and still have energy to socialize. We always worked 12h per day... still had weekends free.

I used to love afternoon shift..... Monday to Thurs 3pm to 3am... 48 hours
in 4 days
then Friday night was optional ... would go in at noon - work to midnight to make the 60 hours and then not back until Mon at 3 pm...felt like a 3 day weekend.


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## MoMoney

Just wanted to share a little bit of first hand perspective since there is so much talk about oil and gas. If I could go back, I would have got my ticket in a trade... Pretty much the same lifestyle I describe in my post below without the politics and flying.

http://www.canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php?t=6801


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## donald

You were making 300+ without a trade ticket...Thats a lot of paper!!

Not long ago i was watching a interview with the ceo of haliburton in north dakota he was saying green field workers were in demand and the entry point on salary was 125k,there absoultly dying for workers nobody to fill the jobs.

Not for everyone but thats a hell of a start into a industry.


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## daddybigbucks

DanFo said:


> If you want to make the big bucks you can't be afraid of a little sweat.. .


I dont believe that. To make the big bucks, you have to make another guy sweat.

i think we are all the same. The less we do, the more we get paid.


I remember having a kid on the construction site his first day. He looked at the backhoe and said " when i get my first million, i'm going to buy one of those"


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## DanFo

Ahh daddy but you didn't start at the top did you?.... I might be sweating a little now....but the next rung up if I take it would chain me to a desk..


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## andrewf

In oil/gas, when it rains it pours. Until it doesn't. Of course, every time they seem to forget the previous bust. Financial services seems to be the same way. They make tonnes of money, most due to market forces outside of their control, and then lose a bunch of money, for much the same reason.


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## joncnca

jcgd said:


> How come us young people get so much crap from the generations before us? Our grandparent decided they weren't going to save any money, except within houses, so we get to pay for all of them to retire, and our parents have never done a thing, except sit in parks smoking the green. They are the generation who complained about everything. We were brought up the way we were, we had no say in it.
> 
> We are supposed to be the lazy, ungrateful generation, yet because of those before me I can't give my kid a smack, my kids will have no repercussions, and we have this lovely world economy I get to deal with while my parents retire and forget about the mess the world is in. There's not a lot you can royally screw up before your 20, and now we get to figure how to fix this mess.
> 
> Donald, I'm not sure if you are saying it's our fault, or the generation who raised us.


lol, in my darker moments this is exactly what i think. big thanks to all the older people in the world who messed up the global economy for the 20-30 year olds today. don't even get me started on the education system.

there's apparently a huge shortage in the trades. it's not glamorous work, but it has great potential for the self-initiated, particularly if it results in entrepreneurship. that's where the big bucks are, owning a company in the trades, having others work for you, and spending your time marketing.

i've gone through my paces and had pretty good grades and a masters degree, but sometimes i work with contractors and all of them (in ownership positions) are LOADED, it's unbelievable. they're smart people, don't get me wrong, they're definitely smart people, but they often don't have the kind of education i (or may of my peers) do. in the end, who cares about glamorous work anyway?

i was down at bay street in toronto once to meet a good buddy of mine for lunch, and i was seeing these young guys in suits walk by. they looked like they were vying for some kind of downtown executive position, but my friend told me that it's totally deceptive, those guys were grunts probably making 30-40k per year and deluded about making significantly more. only upper management is really worthwhile, and you have to sell a lot of your soul and humanity to get there. most people in finance are just meat for the grinder.

anyway, he's a smart guy too, in finance for a big accounting firm, but last year quit the firm to work with his dad in the family business, a success small company in the trades. he's much happier and prospects are actually brighter.


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## daddybigbucks

DanFo said:


> Ahh daddy but you didn't start at the top did you?.... I might be sweating a little now....but the next rung up if I take it would chain me to a desk..


no, I started at the bottom.
I thought i could work hard and long hours and make it big. But i know realized i was just making alot of money for those above me.

When you get older, your paychecks value becomes less and less important and compounding interest becomes more and more important.


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## Daniel A.

jcgd said:


> How come us young people get so much crap from the generations before us? Our grandparent decided they weren't going to save any money, except within houses, so we get to pay for all of them to retire, and our parents have never done a thing, except sit in parks smoking the green. They are the generation who complained about everything. We were brought up the way we were, we had no say in it.
> 
> We are supposed to be the lazy, ungrateful generation, yet because of those before me I can't give my kid a smack, my kids will have no repercussions, and we have this lovely world economy I get to deal with while my parents retire and forget about the mess the world is in. There's not a lot you can royally screw up before your 20, and now we get to figure how to fix this mess.
> 
> Donald, I'm not sure if you are saying it's our fault, or the generation who raised us.



I hear this statement being used often, the generation blame game who pay’s for who’s pension, what mess will the youth be left with.
First being part of a progressive society means we all pay and no it was not the baby boom generation that started down this road we have actually been paying all our working lives for the decisions of government elected in the sixties.
The Canada Pension plan was created in the sixties and those retiring after that managed to benefit from it without putting much in.
The Medical system was built in the sixties as well, prior to this medical was private as it is in the USA. Having said that I do believe we are much better off with it.
Both of these plans have been paid for by all working people since, you see the folks that put these plans in place voting may have had only another ten or fifteen years left to work.

Education and the cost dollar for dollar one can still get a great education in Canada without being rich. The big cost is paying for rent and groceries alone the way.
If you live at home and attend a local school the 5-7 thousand a year is a great investment.

Many other changes were made alone the way and continue today that have a cost.
Every time government makes a new regulation someone pays usually all of us.
In the fifties and sixties one could start a business or company on a fraction of the regulation that is in place today, environment, MSDS, liability, and many others.

There has been a shift from towns and cities picking up costs for new development to having the user pay, but at the same time providing people services roads, transportation, parks, schools are all competing for limited dollars.

Both of my kids are in there twenties I’m retired early.
I do notice the issues that they face and like the generation before them they will remain optimistic and move forward.


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## Syph007

Ha, i saw this report on the news, funny stuff. I'm in the software dev industry and my company specifically overpays us for retention. I'm 38 and just broke 6figs this year. You need a specialized field to make good money, graduating with honors in art history means squat. You actually end up with a worse chance of getting a min wage job vs a non educated person since they know you wont stick around. (i got turned down from blockbuster and was cited this reason when I was in school)

Funny thing is, I had the opposite feelings when i graduated. I was living on grad student stipend of 900 bucks a month then. My first 'real' job paid 35k and I thought I was rich... lol Course I owned no home or car, but it's funny how perception changes once you get those things.


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## andrewf

I think the biggest problem is not really the cost of education but access to student loans at reasonable rates of interest.


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## Syph007

andrewf said:


> I think the biggest problem is not really the cost of education but access to student loans at reasonable rates of interest.


What's the going rate now? I think I had 27k out in loans at the end, and my rate was prime + 2.5


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## canadianbanks

Syph007 said:


> Ha, i saw this report on the news, funny stuff. I'm in the software dev industry and my company specifically overpays us for retention. I'm 38 and just broke 6figs this year. You need a specialized field to make good money, graduating with honors in art history means squat. You actually end up with a worse chance of getting a min wage job vs a non educated person since they know you wont stick around. (i got turned down from blockbuster and was cited this reason when I was in school)
> 
> Funny thing is, I had the opposite feelings when i graduated. I was living on grad student stipend of 900 bucks a month then. My first 'real' job paid 35k and I thought I was rich... lol Course I owned no home or car, but it's funny how perception changes once you get those things.


I'm in IT as well and I agree that you need education in a specialized field if you want to earn good/great salary. 

$91K/year seems on a high side as a general expectation, unless inflation goes up substantially.


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## SuperGrover

Depends on the path the teens take. Degree in arts, makes it harder to get there. Engineering or likewise (trades, finance etc), shouldn’t be too hard. I am 25 and my answers below…

1) I expect to be making that much. In fact, I would be extremely disappointed in myself if I was not. At 75K right now.
2) Already a “home owner”, bank does own most but meh. 10% down and should have a lot more % equity by 30. I hope to have a second house and use my current house as a rental in two-three years. (Helps to have two engineers’ salaries)
3) Already gone

For the average, expectations are a bit high. However for an individual, I dont think they are too high.


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## marina628

My niece is paying 6.5 - 8% on her student loan ,She started about 8 years ago and finished in 2009.I have no idea how they came to the different rates.


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## Pigzfly

Depending on what fields kids are going into, this is not unreasonable whatsoever.
That said, I grew up in an area of high incomes where many of the kids were encouraged to go on and do the same types of careers.

Personally, we own a home, current household average income per person (after bonuses) is about 78K and that's with me being rather underemployed.
We're 26. My partner already clears the 90k. 

Lots of young people around me make that kind of money as well. There are many who don't, but for most of them it is a lifestyle choice to be ski bums for a short (or protracted) period.


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## marina628

My nephew was a millionaire at 26 ,he owns a very large landscaping/snow removal business.He started working at 13 for himself and by 17 had 5 of his high school buddies working for him.He has a high school education that is it...


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## crazyjackcsa

marina628 said:


> My nephew was a millionaire at 26 ,he owns a very large landscaping/snow removal business.He started working at 13 for himself and by 17 had 5 of his high school buddies working for him.He has a high school education that is it...


Sure, but that's an exception, and not a rule.


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## Plugging Along

Though he is the exception, I don't see what's wrong with trying to be the exception to the rule. Why aim to be average?

I was always taught to aim high. I was also taught to make sure I had the plans to reach my goals. Then I was taught that once I reached my goals to make higher goals.


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## londoncalling

I was making over 120k a year as a trades person over 5 years ago at the age of 30.

I know many others that make the same or more and are in their early 20s. However, they are in debt up to their eye balls. Brand new 4 and 5 bdr homes, brand new 60k trucks and all the toys. Most of them living paycheck to paycheck b/c of all the payments. God forbid they ever lose that cash cow. If and when interest rates rise there will be a lot of trouble coming for a lot of people. I never bought into that lifestyle. Not to say that I was extremely wise with my money. I would say I was about average. If I had been a bit more wiser I may shaved 5 years off my retirement age or be able to live more comfortably when that time comes but what's done is done.

I now make just over half of what I made 5 years ago. At times the pay cut can be an inconvenience however I have never been happier. I am home with my family almost every night and get a lot of time off throughout the year. I liked my job in the trades but I love my current job much more.

At a certain point I think we all realize that it's not important how much you make but how one is able to live within their means. More importantly, at some point you will realize, after necessities are taken care of, that time is more important than $$$.

Don't get me wrong I love money. Just not as much as other things.  

Cheers!


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## dubmac

As a teacher, I am amazed at how well some very "average" students had done in the working world. I recall some very average students - they are now pulling down big money (based on their biographies). One kid (nearly drove me nuts) now a lawyer in NYC etc. Past performance in high school however is not particularly good at predicting future success - it may be that family money and connections determine more on who gets which job in today's world.


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## Assetologist

It's also possible that those character traits which did not fit into a classroom setting were transformed into a skill set for 'success' in a narrow vertical within the real world.
Conversely, many times conventional academic capability does not translate into a meaningful and lucrative real world success (however that is measured).
But.... connections and family money do help!


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## the-royal-mail

I am troubled with the responses in this thread that suggest the average person in this day and age can reasonably expect to make $90-120K. C'mon. Yes yes aim high blah blah but giving people this type of false hope based on odd exceptions to the rule is simply not reasonable in this day and age. I really wish people would be a bit more objective in their responses and give realistic averages for the average person and not extreme examples.


----------



## jcgd

Average is pretty far down though. To shoot for average would take effort on my part, not shooting high, but lower than normal.. Except sports, where I am doomed.

I think average is very skewed, due to the people who literally do nothing. Sure there are the 1% who do very well, but there are the 30% (random guess) who do very much less than average. 


Consider trades which are generally about average or even slightly above the average single person income. Considering you don't need your high school diploma and entrant requirements (cash included) are almost non existent, the only thing really stopping you is yourself. Sure there are the odd cases of single 22yo mothers of three who cant work, but who's fault is it really?


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## crazyjackcsa

the-royal-mail said:


> I am troubled with the responses in this thread that suggest the average person in this day and age can reasonably expect to make $90-120K. C'mon. Yes yes aim high blah blah but giving people this type of false hope based on odd exceptions to the rule is simply not reasonable in this day and age. I really wish people would be a bit more objective in their responses and give realistic averages for the average person and not extreme examples.



That's the point I was trying to make. A large potion of people can't be "better than average." That goes against the very meaning of the word.

There are always going to be people "above average" and then people "below average". In the case of this topic, there are far fewer above than below.

So your nephew is a millionaire, so you told your kids to aim high, so you know some people pulling down big money. That isn't, and CAN'T be the average. I'm 30 years old. I'm making 30k. Same as my 30 year old wife. That's the average. That's what average looks like.

It's also been proven time and again, the average acutally skews high, not low. That's why if you look at the "Median" income, it's acutally LOWER than the "average" income. A small amount of people making a tonne of money pulls the average up when compared to a tonne of people making a little money.

Man, I consider myself a "take care of yourself" "Sink or swim" kind of guy, but some of the posts here really have taken me aback.


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## jcgd

Average doesn't mean there are as many people above as below though. The income gaps could pull the average each way.

... Ninja'd with the edit


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## fersure

*Good luck with that*

http://jacobinmag.com/blog/2011/11/measuring-the-generation-gap/

I like pretty graphs...especially when they disprove the fairy tale notions of the young and the hopeless.


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## crazyjackcsa

jcgd said:


> Average doesn't mean there are as many people above as below though. The income gaps could pull the average each way.
> 
> ... Ninja'd with the edit


That was my point. Moneysense.ca had a chart a long time ago showing the difference between average household income and median household income. Average was higher. Median was lower.

Here's what it comes down to:

The average highschool student expects to make 90k by age 30. 
The average HOUSEHOLD INCOME in 2006 (last completed census) WAS 53,000.

THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE YOU CAN RECONCILE THOSE NUMBERS.

No matter how many examples you throw out. Even if you pretend that the high school student was 15 years old. That allows 20 years of wage growth. Even at a 3% increase a year, that would equal 93k HOUSEHOLD income by the time they hit 30.

Sometimes I think people like being obtuse.


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## jcgd

Neat paper. But everyone has a degree these days. As far as I can tell (by helping people with their course work) is that all you have to do is read and regurgitate with the particular spin the teacher wants. Nobody actually has to come up with an original idea.

What does getting a degree prove besides you are able to stick with it for four years and come up with $40k? There are so many people with the degrees that have now become "over qualified" meaning they cost too much for really not being worth any more than average Joe over there.

What makes a 26yo with a MBA think they know anything about business. School isn't the real world, and you can't fake it.


All IMO, of course.


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## jcgd

crazyjackcsa said:


> Sometimes I think people like being obtuse.


Maybe, it doesn't mean your right/wrong. In this case, I am wrong. I didn't know before I attempted to make some points that I was wrong. Now I do but only because I tried to debate some things. I wasn't aware of the money sense thing, or the results. 

What's the big deal about being obtuse? I'm sure between you and your wife you are obtuse AND wrong all the time. (Assuming of course that you are male and married)


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## crazyjackcsa

Obtuse: 1.Annoyingly insensitive or _slow to understand. _
I have no problems with people not understanding things. There is a boat load of things I don't understand in this world. It's willful ignorance that gets me.

"Well I know a young guy that makes lots of money." That one example is supposed to be enough proof to dismiss facts, and then to hold hard and fast to it.


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## dubmac

Assetologist said:


> It's also possible that those character traits which did not fit into a classroom setting were transformed into a skill set for 'success' in a narrow vertical within the real world.
> Conversely, many times conventional academic capability does not translate into a meaningful and lucrative real world success (however that is measured).
> But.... connections and family money do help!


very true assetologist..to be truthful, evaluation in schools is very one dimensional, very limiting and limited. Kids with high EQ's, deal-makers and brokers are not "assessed" because these traits aren't selected in the classroom..usually...but they are selected in the real-world of business. 

My concern with some of the younger 20's/30's set is the sense of entitlement that exists. From what I read in papers, I interpret some of this generation expect to be handed opportunity/good jobs etc without going "out there" to find them..and keep them. In some cases we turn out graduates with degrees that are quite useless in today's economy. How many jobs require a degree political science or sociology - I realise that remark may be inflammatory, but in reality - there are not many jobs that demand those skills in the knowledge based economy that I am aware of (oops..shouldn't have ended on a preposition...my bad)


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## Plugging Along

the-royal-mail said:


> I am troubled with the responses in this thread that suggest the average person in this day and age can reasonably expect to make $90-120K. C'mon. Yes yes aim high blah blah but giving people this type of false hope based on odd exceptions to the rule is simply not reasonable in this day and age. I really wish people would be a bit more objective in their responses and give realistic averages for the average person and not extreme examples.


I guess the issue is that most people don't think that they are average, and therefore the averages don't apply to them. I remember hearing some silly statistic that 80% of the population thinks they are above average in... X. I have to admit, when I hear about averages, I don't think they apply to me in many areas. Is it realistic? Maybe not, but I can justify it in my mind. Most people don't want to be average. Many of the people that I know, have higher salaries, so I consider 6 figure salaries to be the norm (though most are older than 30). I know they are not the average, but they are the norm in my paradigm. I also know many people who make way less, but when I view them, I can also understand why in terms of their previous choices in life. 


I could also be skewed in my thoughts because I am AB, and 6 figure salaries are not uncommon here.


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## nathan79

Interesting thread. I am in my early 30's now, but when I was in high school during the 90's, I don't remember these sorts of expectations.

At that time, 50K was considered an upper middle class income. I don't recall many people expecting to make that amount by the time they were 30. It was the type of income you made at the peak of your career. Now, with inflation I'm sure 50K is closer to 90K, but the point stands.

So is it possible for the average person? Well, sure. I believe I could make 90K if I was willing to put in the time required.

There are a couple of ways. The first is obvious: obtain a degree or apprenticeship in a field that is in high demand (ie, not philosophy). However, you will need the intelligence or raw skills in order to rise to the top, so maybe this is not the best strategy for "Joe average".

The other more simple option is something that anyone with half a brain could do: hold several normal jobs, or find one decent job with unlimited potential for overtime. You may be working harder rather than smarter, but the end result is the same. The question is, are you willing to sacrifice your quality of life in order to do it? Unless you are the type of person who thrives on hard work, the answer is probably no.


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## Oilers82

jcgd said:


> A guy at my work told me he's going back to be a doctor. He wants to make about $300k and I told him you better be a business man and have your own practice, etc. I've never met a family doctor making much over $100k, and they work for every penny.



You're crazy if you think doctor's don't make "much over $100k". You'd have to only be working 2 days a week to be at the $100K mark. 

In Alberta, dentists are raking too. Even as associates there are many around the $150-200K mark. And when they own their practice with associates, that number goes way way up.

I have friends in optometry who are making well over $100k 2 years out of school.

I think to shoot for 90K is quite reasonable. From this thread alone we know these types of jobs CAN all net you over 90K before age 30:

trades, mining/oil, I-bankers, financial analysts, lawyers, doctors, dentists, optometrists. You can probably add nursing (with enough overtime) and pharmacy to the list as well.


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## the-royal-mail

Well, the fairy tale continues. I prefer to go with what the average person on the street pulls in these days. Most people are not doctors, optometrists and pharmacy techs. I think some people in this thread live in their own subjective bubbles and don't look to the jobs performed in the broader economy. Most people these days are very lucky if they pull in $40-50K and even then they need some type of education, trade or skill to do it. Without those things you're lucky to find a job you can live with that pays $10-11 an hour.


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## Maybe Later

I would hope that every high school student aims for some type of education, trade or skill. Of course their expectations are skewed by lack of experience, but I have to agree with Plugging Along that they should aim high and explore their full potential - whether it be in a well paid career or as a starving artist. I'd be pretty disappointed in a school system where the target was to be average 12 years after graduation.


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## FrugalTrader

As another mentioned, it is possible to reach a six figure salary by 30 if you pick the right profession. I know that a pharmacist a couple years out of school can make $50/hr. Engineers who are willing to work in remote locations can easily hit the 6 figure mark as well.


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## andrewf

the-royal-mail said:


> Well, the fairy tale continues. I prefer to go with what the average person on the street pulls in these days. Most people are not doctors, optometrists and pharmacy techs. I think some people in this thread live in their own subjective bubbles and don't look to the jobs performed in the broader economy. Most people these days are very lucky if they pull in $40-50K and even then they need some type of education, trade or skill to do it. Without those things you're lucky to find a job you can live with that pays $10-11 an hour.


This is exactly right. I get the impression that some people here are a bit delusional. They think everyone around them makes $100k per year. In reality, the 80th percentile of income is around 60. The 90th percentile is still under 100k. The vast majority of middle class Canadians are making do on perhaps $30k - 40k a year. If you make more than $60k per year, I have a hard time, just based on numbers, calling you middle class. Upper middle class, perhaps.


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## Oilers82

andrewf said:


> This is exactly right. I get the impression that some people here are a bit delusional. They think everyone around them makes $100k per year. In reality, the 80th percentile of income is around 60. The 90th percentile is still under 100k. The vast majority of middle class Canadians are making do on perhaps $30k - 40k a year. If you make more than $60k per year, I have a hard time, just based on numbers, calling you middle class. Upper middle class, perhaps.


I don't mean to say that everyone makes 100K. I know that's not true, and I know that there is a small percentage of the population that does. And yes plenty of people make do with 30-40K a year.

But what I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with aiming to make 90k by age 30 and that it is completely possible with the right career choices, some of which I was listing in my previous post. I don't mean to say that everyone can/should be one of these professions, but it is possible.


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## rookie

andrewf said:


> This is exactly right. I get the impression that some people here are a bit delusional. They think everyone around them makes $100k per year. In reality, the 80th percentile of income is around 60. The 90th percentile is still under 100k. The vast majority of middle class Canadians are making do on perhaps $30k - 40k a year. If you make more than $60k per year, I have a hard time, just based on numbers, calling you middle class. Upper middle class, perhaps.


what i have seen is that there is no significant difference in the lifestyle of a middle and upper middle class as per your classification. the only difference might be what the upper middle class puts away for retirement.


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## MoMoney

I'd like to make 2 points about this discussion. 

1. As someone who is in the 1% of top earners of my age group, I can assure you that the lifestyle differences between 80K/year and 500k/year are relatively negligible. In fact, if you are young working rich (New Money), your lifestyle may very well be "worse' than someone in the upper middle class. 

2. As I've discovered with most situations in life. It is actually easier to achieve the "impossible" than the "very difficult'. The reason behind this is simple, people erect social constructs as to what is possible and what is not. Those who set the bar low are assured to achieve only within their belief of what is possible. This applies to income and career as well as many aspects of life including relationships, finance and physical performance. 

The truth is all people are either complacent, dumb, lazy, or suffering the consequences of their prior actions, this group includes myself at times. ANY FOOL can move to northern Alberta or BC RIGHT NOW and make 80-120K/year (including some who are excons and drug addicts). A lot of people claim to work hard, claim to want to succeed in their careers, but do NOTHING to sacrifice for it. Canadians sure do have a misguided sense of entitlement... and not just the teens.


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## Ihatetaxes

MoMoney said:


> I'd like to make 2 points about this discussion.
> 
> 1. As someone who is in the 1% of top earners of my age group, I can assure you that the lifestyle differences between 80K/year and 500k/year are relatively negligible. In fact, if you are young working rich (New Money), your lifestyle may very well be "worse' than someone in the upper middle class.
> 
> 2. As I've discovered with most situations in life. It is actually easier to achieve the "impossible" than the "very difficult'. The reason behind this is simple, people erect social constructs as to what is possible and what is not. Those who set the bar low are assured to achieve only within their belief of what is possible. This applies to income and career as well as many aspects of life including relationships, finance and physical performance.
> 
> The truth is all people are either complacent, dumb, lazy, or suffering the consequences of their prior actions, this group includes myself at times. ANY FOOL can move to northern Alberta or BC RIGHT NOW and make 80-120K/year (including some who are excons and drug addicts). A lot of people claim to work hard, claim to want to succeed in their careers, but do NOTHING to sacrifice for it. Canadians sure do have a misguided sense of entitlement... and not just the teens.


Great post.


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## dubmac

I agree ^...well articulated, and to the point.

Not directly related to the OP, but an interesting pov on Generation Y and the extent to which professors and teachers need to respond to some of the "spoiled and coddled" among the generation Y

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Co...s+killing+teaching+authors/5355747/story.html


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## Guigz

I disagree that accomplishing the impossible is easier than accomplishing the very difficult.

This makes no sense in this context. Is it easier to make $10B per year (the impossible) or $90K per year (the very difficult)?

Also can you describe what you mean by "worse" lifestyle when you say that someone making $500k per year could live a worse lifestyle than someone in the upper middle class?


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## andrewf

^ I suspect they mean the quality of life factors. I guess that many people earning >$500k work very long hours, spend little to no time with family, etc.


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## Guigz

andrewf said:


> ^ I suspect they mean the quality of life factors. I guess that many people earning >$500k work very long hours, spend little to no time with family, etc.


Meh, I don't really buy that.

If you make >$500K per year, you can work for 2-5 years and then quit forever. Streched over the lifetime, you are better off getting the highest paying job per hour.

Sure if you spend it all, you are no better off than jo blow working at Walmart for minimum wage.


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## MoMoney

guigz said:


> *$90k per year (the very difficult)*





momoney said:


> those who set the bar low are assured to achieve only within their belief of what is possible.


.
.
.


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## donald

I would think/feel that life would get "easier" once a person advances way past a 500k yr salary.

Its the middle class and upper middle class who get on a treadmill they cant get off of and they are the likely candidates that are along with working there 50 plus hrs a week are raising kids,taking care of a house and running it.(emotional drianed and beat up/coping with various demands)

If your 500k plus a yr,you will have a network behind you and a network behind you in your household(employees,maids ect ect)The 500k a yr "class" is a different bread....this would be a accurate assumption with a few people i know that are millionaires(trust me,they are not like us "middle" class)They are controling and steering there life(most) and enjoying it,you dont get there otherwise.


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## Ihatetaxes

I have worked with so many people that once they got up to the $80-100k range of annual income they simply stopped striving for more. They got to the point where they felt they had "made it" and were no longer struggling just to make ends meet. I, in comparison, always wanted more, to a point. My "point" was where I would have to give up good work/life balance and burn the midnight oil to achieve more. For me I can now earn a comfortable $250k without having to work more than about 25 hours a week and I can take 5-6 weeks of vacation plus a lot of Fridays. I could pretty easily make $400k if I went back to a 50 hour week and little to no vacation but I don't think the extra money, a good chunk of it burned away by taxes anyway, is worth it.


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## donald

It always seems like the wealthier a person is the "less" they work in the traditional sense,they still work hard (harder probably than most)but its a "different" kind of work.


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## Guigz

My point still stands: it is not easier to accomplish the impossible than to accomplish the very difficult.

I also think that aiming high is overrated. Many people start with reasonable expectations and realize that they can do much more once they are in.

I have yet to see any convincing evidence speaking to the fact that people that aim high actually accomplish more than people that have reasonable expectations. How many kids aim for the NHL only to find themselves at 22 with no job and little education?


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## donald

Ya but that 22yr old that "almost" made the nhl aquires a skill set and a mind set only very few would expirence.

I know a few guys that played in the whl and i can tell you this about them,although they didnt make it the trianing they went through is training very few people get,they were @ a high level,knew pressure,team work,work ethic,demands from coachs.....They were around the very best,thats a education.

A 22 yr old ex whl kid has a "leg" up without a doubt....Imo....when going "back" to enter the working world.


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## Guigz

donald said:


> Ya but that 22yr old that "almost" made the nhl aquires a skill set and a mind set only very few would expirence.
> 
> A 22 yr old ex whl kid has a "leg" up without a doubt....Imo....when going "back" to enter the working world.


How many kids play little league hockey and dream/expect to play in the NHL? How many of those reach Major Leagues? How many of those reach WHL? How many of those play in the NHL?

My point is that aiming high is overrated.

Who is in a better position: the 22 something that expected to make the NHL and did not and now has nothing else or the 22 something that hoped to make the NHL but planned something else in case he did not make it?

It helps to have reasonable expectations.


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## donald

I was just meaning that if a 22yr old is still holding "fast" to make the show he obviously is playing major by that point.

@ age 15/16 you already would "know" by than if your on that road in regards to professional hockey.

The 22 yr old i was refering too is not what you meant,i know what your saying.


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## hystat

Ihatetaxes said:


> I have worked with so many people that once they got up to the $80-100k range of annual income they simply stopped striving for more. They got to the point where they felt they had "made it" and were no longer struggling just to make ends meet.


that's me... I really cannot spend any more money in a way that I will enjoy, so what would my goal be? 
Maybe my tastes are just modest...
House is paid off, ....boats, cars, vacations...I do everything I enjoy doing.


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## jcgd

To get that 500k, work may be your life, while someone working regular hours making 80k could be fine financially, but very happy physically and mentally unlike the work = life person. 

I'm in Alberta, so the numbers aren't typical, but most everything pays over 30k. You
Can easily make $14/h as a team leader at McDonald's for example. To make less than that would be rather hard in a way, as you'd have to work very little or be completely unambitious.


----------



## andrewf

Guigz said:


> Meh, I don't really buy that.
> 
> If you make >$500K per year, you can work for 2-5 years and then quit forever. Streched over the lifetime, you are better off getting the highest paying job per hour.
> 
> Sure if you spend it all, you are no better off than jo blow working at Walmart for minimum wage.


I think most people earning $500k need to have some conspicuous consumption. The cars, the house, etc. Otherwise peers will question them.


----------



## Assetologist

*Money, Money , Money..*

My thoughts:

Once a large number of small decisions are, consciously or unconsciously, made regarding the 'value' of material items such as wine, clothes, travel, abode, cars, gifts, donations, electronics, kid's school ..... it becomes very difficult to revert back to a lesser personal standard.

I have no doubt that it's easy to spend up to any level of income, which is fine, as long as savings and investment also play an important role in financial decisions. Money is a game, is freedom, is a master, it depends how one views money and this can certainly change as life evolves.


----------



## Plugging Along

Guigz said:


> How many kids play little league hockey and dream/expect to play in the NHL? How many of those reach Major Leagues? How many of those reach WHL? How many of those play in the NHL?
> 
> My point is that aiming high is overrated.
> 
> Who is in a better position: the 22 something that expected to make the NHL and did not and now has nothing else or the 22 something that hoped to make the NHL but planned something else in case he did not make it?
> 
> It helps to have reasonable expectations.


Reasonable is very subjective. What is your reasonable, may be deemed out of reach for others.

I think the worst situation is for someone who had the potential to get into the NHL but didn't only because they didn't think it was reasonable too. I would rather aim really high, and just a have a back up plan if that one doesn't work. 

In your example, the issue is not that the person aims really high, but rather has nothing else, in case it doesn't work out. I think that's just poor planning. 

I think if teens want to aim really high for six or seven firgure salaries, there's nothing wrong with that, but the need to have a back up plan, and make sure that they are spending within their means while they are getting there.


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## Mall Guy

andrewf said:


> I think most people earning $500k need to have some conspicuous consumption. The cars, the house, etc. Otherwise peers will question them.


don't forget an ex-wife or two (and not to be bias an ex-husband or two), because anyone who makes that kind of money made decision that affected the "balance". Was at a forum where one of the speakers (owner of a household name company) was explaining that he said to his wife "don't make me choose" between family and business, as he was definitely going to choose the business!

Really want to make $500,000/yr?


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## donald

Why should the husband be put in the position of choosing?Surely she would of knowen what her husband was like?This is where the reverse comes in.

Why does it have to be all or nothing?I get that a husband needs to "emotionally" support his family and being a family man outwieghs a corporate man,but if you were a man and finally reach a point in your career where you are reaping benefits that would suck having a obstacle @ the home front like that.You almost are in a no win situation.


----------



## Four Pillars

Guigz said:


> How many kids play little league hockey and dream/expect to play in the NHL? How many of those reach Major Leagues? How many of those reach WHL? How many of those play in the NHL?
> 
> My point is that aiming high is overrated.
> 
> Who is in a better position: the 22 something that expected to make the NHL and did not and now has nothing else or the 22 something that hoped to make the NHL but planned something else in case he did not make it?
> 
> It helps to have reasonable expectations.


Near-impossible dreams are the fuel that spur new inventions, new companies, and even pro athletes.

Every sport I was did as a youth, I always had dreams of becoming some sort of champion. That's what helped motivate me to train and play harder. 

Now my big passion is business - I love thinking up new businesses/money making ventures and trying them out. 

It's dreams of vast riches that help motivate me, even though I'm well aware that most, if not all of my business attempts will result in a fairly pedestrian compensation.

As for your question about 22 year old hockey players, let me ask you this - what if you are talking about one 22 year old player who gave his NHL dream all he had and now has to move on with his life, knowing he tried his best - and the 2nd 22 year old players who hedged his bets and never really gave himself the chance to make the NHL and will always wonder if he could have made it, if he had followed the proper path?

Which one is better off?


----------



## Plugging Along

+1... This was I was thinking but haven't been able to articulate.

I have always expected to do big things and had big dreams. Some of these may not be realistic, but they give me something to aspire to. I do think it's possible for me to millions. I don't know exactly how yet, but that doesn't stop me from thinking about it. Are the odds against me? Yes, but if it wasn't then everyone would do it. 

I do know a few people who have done the impossible, which mays me think that it's not the impossible, just really really hard.


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## Oilers82

Mall Guy said:


> don't forget an ex-wife or two (and not to be bias an ex-husband or two), because anyone who makes that kind of money made decision that affected the "balance". Was at a forum where one of the speakers (owner of a household name company) was explaining that he said to his wife "don't make me choose" between family and business, as he was definitely going to choose the business!
> 
> Really want to make $500,000/yr?


I don't understand why people who make $500K a year necessarily have family troubles. I know plenty of people who make over $500K a year who have wonderful family lives. Yes time may be a bit less with their families but they make it work. It is really all personality-based. I know plenty of people who make next to nothing who have family/relationship problems. I don't think there's a correlation and I think that's a bad assumption.

What is true is that people who make that much do have to have the consumption to match. We know a guy who makes $800k a year and drives an IS 250, wears a Seiko, and went to Cuba for a vacation. Doesn't wear expensive clothes and rents a modest townhouse to live in. Nothing wrong with any of that (in fact I respect him for not feeling the need to live it up and be a baller), but it does raise some eyebrows as to why he's not spending more.


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## Berubeland

I'm not sure I'd want to live in a world where the high school kids didn't think they could make 90K a year. 

For kids life with all the trials and tribulations is ahead of them. 

Who wants to be the 65 year old at Tim's or McDonalds. 

In any case I've always been an entrepreneur, so I fundamentally don't understand people who just want to show up at 9 and go home at 5, get weekends off and chill out. I need challenge, I need pace and I need pressure. Want bad work from me? Just give me an easy job.  Tell me to build the next moon rocket and just point me in the right direction...and watch me enjoy working 18hour days. 

The first company I built was in the trades and I have to say that yes it is hard work, but to this day I can go travel around the city and see work I did, things I fixed. It's very satisfying. 

With property management to a certain extent, all I get at the end of the day is a stack of paper filled out, or a bunch of emails answered. Then I'm like what the hell did I accomplish? 

In any case in the trades I learned that one highly skilled and motivated person can make about $100K per year working for yourself. So far in property management it's about the same, after that you just cannot keep up with the phone calls, the billing, and traveling. So after that mark, you must transition to hiring staff. I have found when I hired staff in the past that it was not possible for them to produce like I do and some of my time goes to them. Then there's the infrastructure required, I work out of my home office, so its tax efficient and a bit of a bunker for slow times. 

I am still in this transition phase...of moving to hiring people.


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## Dmoney

Berubeland said:


> I'm not sure I'd want to live in a world where the high school kids didn't think they could make 90K a year.


I wish we lived in a world where high school kids realized they can't all be making 90K a year. It would have avoided the whole Occupy waste of time. Can each and every high school student make 6 figures? Absolutely. But they need to be taught that it takes drive, ambition, motivation, hard work, perseverance and creativity. Not just 4 years of scraping through high school and another 4 of scraping through a useless generic university degree. 

It doesn't take a genius, I know people with their own landscaping/snow removal companies with no education and not a whole lot of smarts who are making loads of money. They had the balls to go after it, and succeeded. We need to stop perpetuating the myth that 90K salaries are the low hanging fruit and students just have to go through the motions to attain them.

Read articles about the quality of current university students and you'll get an idea of why these kids shouldn't be making much more than minimum wage. Assignments late, arguing about poor grades, unjustified excuses, any excuses, can't spell, can't articulate an argument, drag their group down, rely entirely on their group to do the work... The list goes on. Having just graduated after putting in probably double the time of the average student in my program, I have a great job. I'm the youngest hire in my department by probably 5-10 years, am working with guys who have MBAs, CFAs, 10+ years experience and I am thriving. 

Work=reward, and the fact is that 90% of these teens who aspire to 90K+ salaries are only willing to put in 30K worth of work, or substantially less.


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## sensfan15

Read articles about the quality of current university students?


You can't lump hard working university students with a few bad apples.

Please provide a link.


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## Guigz

I agree that having motivation, dreams and goals is probably necessary to succeed. I do not argue about this. 

However, as much as having motivation, dreams and goals is fine, having *unrealistic expectations* is not. 

Having expectations implies that this is what you anticipate will happen (i.e., the worst case scenario or at least a very plausible one) which makes you less likely to plan for an alternate scenario. If you expect that an assignment deadline will be extended, do you work like a mad man to deliver it on time? If you expect that you will get a good grade with little effort, will you go the extra mile to achieve even better?

Maybe this is just semantics but I think there is a huge difference between kids *expecting* to make $90K per year and kids hoping/dreaming to make $1M per year. One implies that the end goal is easy to attain without much effort while the other implies that the result is the end point of hard work and determination.


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## Four Pillars

Guigz said:


> Maybe this is just semantics but I think there is a huge difference between kids *expecting* to make $90K per year and kids hoping/dreaming to make $1M per year. One implies that the end goal is easy to attain without much effort while the other implies that the result is the end point of hard work and determination.


I think you are reading too much into this.

I think $90k per year in your 20's is realistic, even if most will earn less than that. "Realistic" does not imply that it will happen to everyone - it just means that the odds of it happening to any one person are not too bad.

Also - how do you know that the people who expect to make $90k are assuming it will be easy? It doesn't say that anywhere in the article. I'd be very surprised if this was the case.


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## andrewf

^ The odds of someone making 90k a year in the 20s has to be worse than 1 in 20. I wouldn't call those great odds.


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## Four Pillars

andrewf said:


> ^ The odds of someone making 90k a year in the 20s has to be worse than 1 in 20. I wouldn't call those great odds.


It's higher than the odds of making the NHL!


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## Oilers82

andrewf said:


> ^ The odds of someone making 90k a year in the 20s has to be worse than 1 in 20. I wouldn't call those great odds.


Those odds include the unmotivated, and also people who choose professions where they know they can't make that kind of money, because they like what they're doing and that's more important than the pay. Not everyone aims for money alone. ie teachers, social workers...these people are successful and vital to society, but no way would you ever make $90k before age 30.

If you know you want to make $90k before age 30 and you understand what kind of careers can get you there, its not unreasonable to aim for those kinds of careers and earning potential. Amongst my group of high school friends, 40-50% of us are easily clearing the $90k mark at age 29. Its not impossible.


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## Guigz

Four Pillars said:


> I think you are reading too much into this.
> 
> I think $90k per year in your 20's is realistic, *even if most will earn less than that. * "Realistic" does not imply that it will happen to everyone - it just means that the odds of it happening to any one person are not too bad.
> 
> Also - how do you know that the people who expect to make $90k are assuming it will be easy? It doesn't say that anywhere in the article. I'd be very surprised if this was the case.


I probably am reading too much into this...

The highlighted passage is what makes the kids' expectations unrealistic. 

If most will earn much less than $90K, why is it ok for all the kids expecting to make as much? 

I think you guys are getting stuck on the fact that for any random cherry picked individual, making $90K is possible. While the previous might be true it does not change the fact that it is unrealistic for the majority to expect to make as much.


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## MoneyGal

But they didn't survey the majority of teens, or even a representative sample - they interviewed high school graduates who were in university at the time of the survey.


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## andrewf

Oilers82 said:


> TAmongst my group of high school friends, 40-50% of us are easily clearing the $90k mark at age 29. Its not impossible.


1 in 20 is by definition not impossible. People of certain socioeconomic outcomes are much likely to associate with each other.


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## Guigz

MoneyGal said:


> But they didn't survey the majority of teens, or even a representative sample - they interviewed high school graduates who were in university at the time of the survey.


But they DID survey a representative sample.

From the Study:

"This survey was conducted by Innovative Research Group Inc. Through an online survey among *a representative sample of 3,006* Canadian high school graduates, 17 to 20 years of age. The interviews were conducted between September 7th and September 26th 2011 in both French and English.

The survey was weighted to ensure that the overall sample's composition reflects actual young Canadian high school graduates between the ages of17 and 20 according to 2006 Census data, in order to provide results that are intended to approximate a probability sample."


Another interesting tid bit from the survey:

The median survey respondent expects to earn *$70,000 *in 10 years. According to the 2006 Census, the median income for a 25 to 29 year‐old *with at least a high school diploma is $26,000*. Even among Canadians between the ages of 25 and 29 who have a post‐secondary degree, *the median income is only $29,000.*


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## MoneyGal

We are saying the same thing. Or, at least I'm not saying anything different from what you posted. 

What I said is that they didn't sample a representation of all teenagers - but of teenagers who graduate high school, "most" of whom went on to university (I have a meeting in 10 minutes, I will figure out what "most" means by checking the study later tonight). 

Google tells me that 24% of the population aged 18-24 were participating in university education in 2005-2006: http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=56

So do I think that about 24% of the population believes it will be in the top 5% of income-earners (annual income of $89K puts you in the top 5% in 2004: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/070924/dq070924a-eng.htm)?

I think that's a realistic assumption and goal for someone in university today.


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## ddkay

I see a lot of hate here from people that "worked hard" on people that haven't succeeded to nominally equivalent levels and are discounting chance. Just so we're clear, an individual may be judged by laziness, you cannot say the same thing of people in aggregate, the only data points that matter are working against you.










2006 census data is not relevant anymore. The next set will be much worse. I guarantee it.


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## dubmac

wow...that is some graph! interesting...and scary, if you're looking for work.


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## Dmoney

sensfan15 said:


> Read articles about the quality of current university students?
> 
> 
> You can't lump hard working university students with a few bad apples.
> 
> Please provide a link.


They aren't a few bad apples. There are a few good apples. Having just graduated less than a year ago I have seen it first hand. The article I'm referring to was in the globe and mail and referenced a book written by two university professors talking about their experiences. Mine aligned, with respect to most students turning in poor work, asking for extensions for no reason etc. The point is, the best students have no problem getting work, the worst students can only get work if they know someone. 

I don't have the link but it's out there if you really want to find it.


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## ddkay

You mean the best students that also know someone have less (not no) trouble getting work. For almost every crap G&M article you find, I can find another crap G&M article that counters it. No respect for that paper anymore. And one of my parents worked there for 30 years.


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## sags

I read an article that there are a lot of young people, sitting in their parents basement waiting for that $90,000 job to come swimming by. They have no interest in an entry level job.

They don't realize they have to work their way up the ladder.


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## sags

_I see a lot of hate here from people that "worked hard" on people that haven't succeeded to nominally equivalent levels and are discounting chance. Just so we're clear, an individual may be judged by laziness, you cannot say the same thing of people in aggregate, the only data points that matter are working against you.
_

The biggest factor for getting a job is still who you know.

They call it "networking now". We used to call it...."can you get me in".


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## Dmoney

sags said:


> _The biggest factor for getting a job is still who you know.
> 
> They call it "networking now". We used to call it...."can you get me in"._


_

Networking is part of being a good student, good employee, and is part of the work needed to get a job. A job isn't just going to land in your lap. 

My current job is the result of a connection I made while representing my school at a competition, which I was nominated for because A) I was a member of an extracurricular group that takes probably an extra 20 hrs a week to be a part of, B) I was a teaching assistant for a relevant class, C) I had participated in a prior similar competition and done well.

I didn't get a job because my parents knew someone, I got a job because I took the steps to go above and beyond what my classmates did, and I made the effort to network the whole way up.

I'm a firm believer that hard work will get you through in the end, and moping around because you don't have the right parents/family/friends/etc. will get you nowhere. 

If you're overqualified for your Starbucks job because you have a degree in English, prove it. Get a better job. We have an entire publishing department full of English majors who work their asses off and made the most of their credentials in a tough job market. 

90K is obtainable for anyone who sets their mind to it. If you have to work overtime, so be it. Just don't complain when someone who worked harder than you got further ahead faster._


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## ddkay

I smell an enormous sense of entitlement which is pretty typical of people in our generation.. it's actually more about where you concentrate your work than *just* working hard. If your ONLY goal is to make as much money as possible the years immediately following your graduation, you need to correctly identify which sector has the greatest growth potential AND be lucky enough to have opportunity knock on your door.

High paying jobs in the mining industry have high pay for a reason, demand has skyrocketed due to EM growth and there is a historical shortage of people willing to work 12 hour days and potentially put their lives on the line when they grew up in a society where the majority of their most respected elders have or had cushy desk jobs in the so-called knowledge economy.

This Australian iron ore miner made $1mm in 4 years. Does that mean everyone can do that? No. If everyone could, the pay would undoubtedly be much lower.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204621904577016172350869312.html


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## ddkay

McSlavery http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/nov/16/young-jobseekers-work-pay-unemployment


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## Plugging Along

Dmoney said:


> They aren't a few bad apples. There are a few good apples. Having just graduated less than a year ago I have seen it first hand. The article I'm referring to was in the globe and mail and referenced a book written by two university professors talking about their experiences. Mine aligned, with respect to most students turning in poor work, asking for extensions for no reason etc. The point is, the best students have no problem getting work, the worst students can only get work if they know someone.
> 
> I don't have the link but it's out there if you really want to find it.


If one is defining good students vs. bad students based on grades, its a misconception that's the only thing that matters. There a many 'smart-stupid' people out there. I define these people who are very book smart, worked hard in getting good grades, but lack common sense and people skills. They may have the best GPA's, and therefore get all the first interviews, but they don't necessarily get the job or the promotion later on. I have found that the high grades will help you get the first interview and in the door, but it's the other softer skills and common sense that get you to higher levels. 

People who think there is no place for networking are in for a big surprise. Unless you work in a bubble, who you know makes a huge difference. This doesn't mean being born in the right family with the right parents, but rather developing relationship and reputation. I got my first job out of university because I called up a company to organize a 'job shadowing' in the industry. The manager thought I had strong people and relationship skills, and told me to apply. Once you get in the door of a company, many of the jobs that you are selected for are based on the relationships you have with people.


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## Oilers82

andrewf said:


> 1 in 20 is by definition not impossible. People of certain socioeconomic outcomes are much likely to associate with each other.


That's why I said high school friends. We all had no money to our name at the time, all of us met in grade 10. We had no socioeconomic standing of our own, just that of our parents, all of whom are 1st generation immigrants. My moms' a nurse and my dad did a variety of odd jobs here and there...he doesn't have any post-secondary education. 

I think the whole point of the article is that they asked these kids what THEY expected to be earning by age 30, not what they thought THE WHOLE GROUP of them should be earning. Its a good thing that most of these kids had their sights set high. If you asked me that 10 years ago there's no way in hell I'd tell you I'm aiming for the mean or median salary.


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## donald

Id say very few people would be "built'' to be a iron ore miner re that article,funny the guy made 1mm in 4 yrs and has zero savings!He is 25 but how long can he run a life like that.(even if he saved a quater 250k @ 25,never touch it say in a index fund,he would likely be set by 45)

10 2 1 that guy will be kicking himself hard looking back.


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## ddkay

Oilers82 said:


> That's why I said high school friends. We all had no money to our name at the time, all of us met in grade 10. We had no socioeconomic standing of our own, just that of our parents, all of whom are 1st generation immigrants. My moms' a nurse and my dad did a variety of odd jobs here and there...he doesn't have any post-secondary education.
> 
> I think the whole point of the article is that they asked these kids what THEY expected to be earning by age 30, not what they thought THE WHOLE GROUP of them should be earning. Its a good thing that most of these kids had their sights set high. If you asked me that 10 years ago there's no way in hell I'd tell you I'm aiming for the mean or median salary.


I'm assuming 82 in your handle is your birth year. You're 29 and you live in Alberta. It's not particularly hard to figure out why the majority of your cohort has done extremely well in the last 12 years. Right place, right time.


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## ddkay

Can any 20 somethings from Eastern Canada add some input here? What is your job, salary, future prospects of upward mobility for yourself and your peer group? How well do you think your local economy is transitioning away from being resource based? Do you know the biggest driver of growth in the last decade, do you know why LFS unemployment rates have halved in provinces like NL since 2006?


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## Dmoney

Plugging Along said:


> If one is defining good students vs. bad students based on grades, its a misconception that's the only thing that matters.


Grades actually matter very little as long as you get B's at a minimum... which based on how easily professors mark these days is extremely easy. It's the extracurricular activities, connections with profs/other students, attending networking events, building your resume from day 1 that really matters.

Most successful student in my cohort wasn't the smartest kid, but was involved from day 1, helped raise $1 million dollars for an educative initiative, was in several clubs, participated in several competitions, knew all his teachers. Now works for Barclays, starting with a base salary of $85K, $12K signing bonus, and likely gets another 40-60K bonus annually. At 23. He'll likely be making upwards of 250K within 5 years if he stays there.


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## Jutzi

I guess I was a bad student. Its not that I wasn't motivated, I just didn't care. I had no desire to go to university, or really college for that matter. I did end up going to college. I graduated in 1998 with a computer programmer analyst diploma, worked at it for a few years thinking I'd be set for life. 2001 I was unemployed and bored out of my mind. I grew up in a farm setting, so I realized that I didn't even like computers, my guidance councillor had steered me wrong. I started working in construction because I loved to build things. I didn't need any sort of college/university diploma, just common sense, a willingness to work hard, and the ability to learn. I don't think the money you make should be what drives you, but finding something you can do that you love and make money while doing it, that is what people should look for! Now when I finish work every day I'm eager to return! And I get paid! I don't make 90k a year, but I make enough to pay the bills and save for the future!


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## m3s

ddkay said:


> Can any 20 somethings from Eastern Canada add some input here? What is your job, salary, future prospects of upward mobility for yourself and your peer group? How well do you think your local economy is transitioning away from being resource based? Do you know the biggest driver of growth in the last decade, do you know why LFS unemployment rates have halved in provinces like NL since 2006?


I don't think too many of my peers out East are making $90k by 30, but the East also has the highest income/cost-of-living ratio in Canada. I've done the math, and I'd much rather have a decent paying job out East than earning even twice as much in the GTA. It is harder to land a decent job out East though, many relocate to Alberta. Thing is $90k out East is not the same as $90k in the GTA at all.

I'll make $90k in late 20's and I never expected to in high school. It's really not that hard if you keep your opportunities open (IE pass school, don't tattoo your face get arrested etc) and you are somewhat well-rounded not just book credentials (IE sports and organizing activities) and work your a$$ off the first job (and at least pretend you love it) You'll stand out easily, regardless of aptitude


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## ddkay

Globally Systemically Important Financial Institutions typically only hire straight out of b-schools for entry and mid-level positions. That doesn't mean we can or should all be bankers. If you are unlucky enough to lose your banking job in a downturn (underperformance, bankruptcies etc), there is little chance of being rehired, your best chance of finding similar work is applying to boutiques. PS the G20 FSB did not define any Canadian banks as G-SIFIs. That means no bailout support from the international community.


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## donald

Read a article in forbes yesterday as far as america goes bankers across the sector are doomed.

BofA cutting 30k jobs in 2012 to save 5b.
citi cutting 3k jobs
gs cutting 1k jobs

The industry is undergoing a new "normal" tough sector to crack even with a mba.

Not to state the obvious.


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## Helianthus

At the age of 18, I thought I would hit $100K+ by the time I was 30. It is at that time that we all get wooed by the Universities with all their average salary talk. I expected to be making $80K right out of University (the average from my program, supposedly), but sadly, my first offer was not even half that. With 4 years and some hard work, I am around that level now. 

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but by drilling those income stats in to your head, it really fuels students taking on more debt while they are in school.


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## the-royal-mail

That makes a lot of sense. With many situations, when the answer is not immediately clear I say 'follow the money'.


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## andrewf

To me, a SIFI should be slated to be dismantled as soon as it is identified. SIFIs raise huge moral hazard problems. At the very least they should have to have very thick layer of contingent capital. That would probably be enough for SIFIs to split themselves up to lose that status.


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## twowheeled

Helianthus said:


> At the age of 18, I thought I would hit $100K+ by the time I was 30. It is at that time that we all get wooed by the Universities with all their average salary talk. I expected to be making $80K right out of University (the average from my program, supposedly), but sadly, my first offer was not even half that. With 4 years and some hard work, I am around that level now.
> 
> Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but by drilling those income stats in to your head, it really fuels students taking on more debt while they are in school.


In high school (2005) I expected to be making around 50-60K after graduating university. I would have probably expected 80-90K by 30-35 years old.


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## dubmac

Interesting article on the potential return of apprenticeships in work force..interesting comments at bottom of article...
http://www.good.is/post/could-apprenticeships-replace-the-college-degree/


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## marina628

My daughter was home this weekend and she had some careers book an one degree spread was $25871 -$90,224 to start .That is a huge spread!


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## Trent1

*direct them to the following*

www.averagesalarysurvey.com

(These are Cdn. figures)

Experiences Salary Entries Average Gross Salary Gross (USD) 
0-1 Year 225 49,608 CAD $48,163 
1-2 Years 147 51,069 CAD $49,582 
2-4 Years 215 52,205 CAD $50,684 
4-8 Years 256 65,557 CAD $63,648 
8-12 Years 211 73,195 CAD $71,063 
12-16 Years 129 91,777 CAD $89,104 
16-20 Years 81 85,291 CAD $82,807 
20+ Years 113 116,575 CAD $113,180 

some good charts to look at.
Conclusion - NO very few will get to $90,000 by 30.
Masters and Doctorate might achieve this by 30.

If I had to do it over I would get plumbing, electrical, building trades
and buy real estate to manage.
History shows Royalty came from land ownership and having armies.
land ownership is slightly easier.

good luck to the under thiirties!


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## marina628

Most of the trades can earn close to 90k a year these days because there is a shortage of skilled workers so they can get overtime and weekend pay.My husband and his family have HVAC company and their guys earn average $74,000 a year.


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## K-133

Well - I recently turned thirty. In my early University years I had though I'd be making $80,000-100,000 coming out of my first degree and earning 10% return on my savings. I ended up with $60,000 + pension and benefits. Salary wise, I was off the mark. Investment wise way off. Overall though I wasn't too far.

I suppose you could say my adjustment to reality was somewhat humbling and needed, but that in itself really helped shape who I'd become. Without such an experience I highly doubt I'd be sitting where I am. To slap these kids into the reality in which we live would be to steal such an experience from them, essentially robbing them and our society of the people they will become. That in itself is far from what I'm trying to impress here though, my point is actually buried within a combination of the humbling to reality which awaits coupled with the fact that I and others like me started out thinking about the future. 

If these kids are dreaming today about where they are going to be 1, 5, 10 years from now, and taking action to get there its a good thing - a very good thing. If the goals aren't ambitious enough to fail, then they aren't pushing themselves hard enough to replace what the current generations will leave vacant. We need these types of realistic dreamers who will one day be ready to adjust to certain realities, and bold enough break through other perceived realities. I don't think we can assess that just because they have high expectations, that they will not in the future adjust to what we accept as realistic. 

Neither do I think this is anything to panic about, far from it, I think it is something to embrace. What we should be concerned with are those people (young and old) who aren't so concerned with forecasting, understanding income and expenses, and who expect that life is just given to them. Those are the ones spending without any consideration of how it will impact them tomorrow, next week, next year or 15 years from now. These are unrealistic livers who rarely understand the meaning of adding value, or earning tomorrow. These are the folks who will do much more harm to our societies than those who are dreaming of (aka planning for) tomorrow.

In my life, a plan starts with a dream...


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## ddkay

Great post K-133!


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## Oilers82

K-133 said:


> Well - I recently turned thirty. In my early University years I had though I'd be making $80,000-100,000 coming out of my first degree and earning 10% return on my savings. I ended up with $60,000 + pension and benefits. Salary wise, I was off the mark. Investment wise way off. Overall though I wasn't too far.
> 
> I suppose you could say my adjustment to reality was somewhat humbling and needed, but that in itself really helped shape who I'd become. Without such an experience I highly doubt I'd be sitting where I am. To slap these kids into the reality in which we live would be to steal such an experience from them, essentially robbing them and our society of the people they will become. That in itself is far from what I'm trying to impress here though, my point is actually buried within a combination of the humbling to reality which awaits coupled with the fact that I and others like me started out thinking about the future.
> 
> If these kids are dreaming today about where they are going to be 1, 5, 10 years from now, and taking action to get there its a good thing - a very good thing. If the goals aren't ambitious enough to fail, then they aren't pushing themselves hard enough to replace what the current generations will leave vacant. We need these types of realistic dreamers who will one day be ready to adjust to certain realities, and bold enough break through other perceived realities. I don't think we can assess that just because they have high expectations, that they will not in the future adjust to what we accept as realistic.
> 
> Neither do I think this is anything to panic about, far from it, I think it is something to embrace. What we should be concerned with are those people (young and old) who aren't so concerned with forecasting, understanding income and expenses, and who expect that life is just given to them. Those are the ones spending without any consideration of how it will impact them tomorrow, next week, next year or 15 years from now. These are unrealistic livers who rarely understand the meaning of adding value, or earning tomorrow. These are the folks who will do much more harm to our societies than those who are dreaming of (aka planning for) tomorrow.
> 
> In my life, a plan starts with a dream...


Amen to that. Exactly what I want to say, but I"m not as eloquent as you. The youth needs to aim high indeed, but also be ready to work for it and make adjustments as they go.


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## FrugalTrader

ddkay said:


> Can any 20 somethings from Eastern Canada add some input here? What is your job, salary, future prospects of upward mobility for yourself and your peer group? How well do you think your local economy is transitioning away from being resource based? Do you know the biggest driver of growth in the last decade, do you know why LFS unemployment rates have halved in provinces like NL since 2006?


In NL now its all about the oil. Engineers can definitely make 100k by 30 if they have a few yrs experience in O&G.


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## ddkay

A Blow to Pinstripe Aspirations - NYT


----------



## Sampson

For every single person I know earning over $100k by 30, there are more earning less that $50k.

Absolutely it is possible, and if you were to read FT's latest blog post, you would think everyone earns over $100k, but the hard truth is that most will not. The simple choice for teens is to AIM for the goal, and not presently EXPECTING to earn that income.

So I do see a problem with teens thinking they will earn this much. Unrealistic expectations will can lead to failure with no backup plan.


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## Four Pillars

Sampson said:


> *So I do see a problem with teens thinking they will earn this much. Unrealistic expectations will can lead to failure with no backup plan.*


I don't see why "failure" in this case, is a problem? If someone thinks (hopes) they will make a certain amount 10 years from now and they fall short, then where exactly is the problem?

Assuming they are working hard to achieve a goal of making $90k, good things should happen and if they don't make $90k, then maybe they make $60k. Or maybe $40k or whatever.

Regardless, I just don't see the harm in shooting high.

To be honest, I think this whole thread is pointless.


----------



## andrewf

This thread seems to be a matter of some people reading 'expect' as 'hope' and others reading it as 'believe they are entitled to'.


----------



## Sampson

I think the problem arises when people develop bad habits. Say you expect to get an inheritance, large salary, or big pay raise but this never materializes. If your spending habits have been formed by these expectations, then you can be in lots of trouble.

To mex, while 'pointless', this thread at least demonstrates that it is possible to earn lots of money, just move to Alberta.


----------



## MoneyGal

It's possible to earn lots of money. You just have to go where the money is. There's lots of money around. 

Some of the discussion in this thread is weird to me. It's as though some posters are saying, "statistically, only one football team can win each game - so it does not make sense for both teams to go into the game expecting to win. So half of the teams should expect to lose, not win - that would be the statistically representative portrait of how the games actually shake out."


----------



## arrow1963

Moneygal,

To keep your analogy going, I do think it's incorrect for members of both football teams to think: "If we play well today, we will win". A more accurate expectation, while perhaps not motivating would be: " If we play well today, we might have an 80% chance of winning, depending on the play of the other team, and random breaks. If we play poorly, we may have a 20% chance of winning, depending...."

Whether the false belief (we will win) is useful depends on the power of motivation versus the ill effects of sub-optimal choices based on false beliefs. If students believe with certainty that they will have an income of X at the age of 30 pending their self-investment and hard work, they may a full incentive to engage in both behaviors, and to not take precautions to guard against poor (unlucky) outcomes.


----------



## andrewf

Isn't it more like a team expecting to win half the time? It makes much more sense for every team to expect to win half the time than the expect to always win. You're guaranteed to be wrong.


----------



## Guigz

Four Pillars said:


> I don't see why "failure" in this case, is a problem? If someone thinks (hopes) they will make a certain amount 10 years from now and they fall short, then where exactly is the problem?


Being unable to payback your $60K of student loans because you expected to gross $90K/year with your degree in english litterature and yet you only clear $35K/year?


----------



## MoneyGal

andrewf said:


> Isn't it more like a team expecting to win half the time? It makes much more sense for every team to expect to win half the time than the expect to always win. You're guaranteed to be wrong.


Maybe it's just a personality thing. If I was playing on a professional sports team, I couldn't do it if I said to myself, "statistically I'm going to lose half the time [or some fraction of the time]." Even though I know it's "true" - it would be motivation-killing for me. 

Expecting to earn $90K by age 30? A great motivator for me, completely separate and apart from whether it actually happens or not.


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## donald

Im not a trader but the same rules apply.Why would someone want to become a trader in the market?Think of the odds,i dont know the stats but there not good!Yet people will study charts,analize conditions,follow everything they can and there odds are still bad.

If you look @ things in all areas of life from a % standpoint,you may as well not even get out of bed lol...you simply cant view life from a perspective like that imo.


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## Oilers82

So none of you have played competitive sports. Yes you're wrong some of the time if you expect to win, but it wouldn't be competitive if you just assumed you're gonna lose.

Anyways, the point is, to live your life expecting the mean and never aiming higher is a pretty crappy existence. Its not just money we're talking about..money's just one aspect of life. For those who keep dishing out "mean statistics"...do you expect your marriage to fail too? Cuz stats say only 50% of marriages work. 

There are certain things that are somewhat out of our control, such as how the markets behave. Such as what cards are dealt when you play blackjack. In those cases, statistics are useful. But in so many aspects of our lives, we have influence on what might happen. And because of that ability to influence the outcome, we aim for the goals we set. The income you earn is largely under your influence, so yeah, set the bar high. And if you don't reach it so be it, but at least you tried.


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## Dmoney

I suppose the best thing that could happen is all these kids work really hard and increase the mean to 90K... But I don't see that happening. No one is saying don't aim high, but statistically, about 95% of these students will be disappointed. That's just the reality.

Returning to the sports analogies, it's like every team expecting to win the super bowl, every player expecting to score the winning goal, every player expecting to be awarded MVP, every participant to get a gold medal.

The reality is, if you're on the fourth line, you're expecting Crosby to get the MVP award above you. If you're ranked 10th in the world, you're expecting Shaun White to win the gold in halfpipe. If you're the Colts this year, you're expecting the Packers to beat you.

That's just life. It doesn't mean you don't try hard, but if the average person makes $50K/year and your family connections, intelligence, work ethic and physical strength are all below average... you probably shouldn't expect to make more than this.


----------



## donald

Dmoney-just because you brought it up-do you honestly believe payton manning thinks the packers are better then him?Not a chance in hell,there off to a **** start but in the words of dieon saunders....cmon man lol,i dont care if arron rodgers is the next brady.

If micheal Jordan thought whats the point after he got cut from his high school basketball team where would basketball be?The thing is its not a set in stone thing,even if a 30yr old didnt reach his goal of a 90k a yr,you think he should lay down and not keep trying again.....i think if someone real desires a thing and puts one foot in front of the other and keeps plugging away eventually it will come.

And since when is success(being the 90k yr job)a striaghtline,without obstacles,difficulties.I dont get it....you could find a reason to quit everyday with a mindset like that....same could be said with say losing wieght goals.(i come from a big boned family,the gym is hard,i dont like friut)screw it...im destined to be overwieght whats the point...


----------



## andrewf

MoneyGal said:


> Maybe it's just a personality thing. If I was playing on a professional sports team, I couldn't do it if I said to myself, "statistically I'm going to lose half the time [or some fraction of the time]." Even though I know it's "true" - it would be motivation-killing for me.
> 
> Expecting to earn $90K by age 30? A great motivator for me, completely separate and apart from whether it actually happens or not.


I guess irrational beliefs can cut either way. A friend of mine has an uncle who lives in S. Carolina. He refuses to save for his children's education and has withdrawn the equity on his home to buy toys because he is convinced the Rapture is coming, soon.

Too many children 'expect' to make $90k (in the entitlement sense) but make no realistic plan to get there. If someone who had the aptitude and the desire to study for a career where that kind of pay was the norm at 30, that is a rational expectation. If they plan to get the BA in English with a minor in Psychology, they are probably deluding themselves. It's not impossible, but I think it would require some plan. You certainly can't just stumble along and expect to get there.


----------



## Plugging Along

andrewf said:


> Isn't it more like a team expecting to win half the time? It makes much more sense for every team to expect to win half the time than the expect to always win. You're guaranteed to be wrong.


It would actually be very unlikely that every team is going to win 50% of the time. Stats only indicate that if you do something repeating, hundreds, or thousands, or more times, then over all the expected outcome will that. There are some sports teams that will win almost everytime, and some that will lose almost everytime. There are many factors that will determine which one will have which outcome. That's just like people... I think it would be really sad to say 'I'm a loser, and since the odds are against me, I won't try' 



andrewf said:


> I guess irrational beliefs can cut either way. A friend of mine has an uncle who lives in S. Carolina. He refuses to save for his children's education and has withdrawn the equity on his home to buy toys because he is convinced the Rapture is coming, soon.
> 
> Too many children 'expect' to make $90k (in the entitlement sense) but make no realistic plan to get there. If someone who had the aptitude and the desire to study for a career where that kind of pay was the norm at 30, that is a rational expectation. If they plan to get the BA in English with a minor in Psychology, they are probably deluding themselves. It's not impossible, but I think it would require some plan. You certainly can't just stumble along and expect to get there.


From many of the comments earlier in thread, people were saying since the odds were against them, that they shouldn't expect to make that kind of money. I'm actually really surprise to hear that from the people here, as I see most so financially motivated, and making smart plans. I would think that many here should and would aspire to be making that kind of money, especially the young ones.


----------



## Oilers82

Dmoney said:


> The reality is, if you're on the fourth line, you're expecting Crosby to get the MVP award above you. If you're ranked 10th in the world, you're expecting Shaun White to win the gold in halfpipe. If you're the Colts this year, you're expecting the Packers to beat you.
> 
> That's just life. It doesn't mean you don't try hard, but if the average person makes $50K/year and your family connections, intelligence, work ethic and physical strength are all below average... you probably shouldn't expect to make more than this.


Sports would be hella boring if everyone fell in line with expectations. Someone already pointed out the MJ analogy.

Djokovic should've given up vs Federer in 2010, down 2 match points in the US open semis. He was ranked below Feds at that point. Instead he won (although he lost to Nadal in that final), and went on in 2011 to have one of the single most dominant years in tennis history.

2004 Red Sox should've layed down, very improbable to beat the Yankees down 3-0 in the ALCS.

None of the teams in the NCAA Tourney ranked below #4 in each conference should even try right? They would never make it to the sweet 16.

I mean you're right, the probabilities aren't great, but why wouldn't you at least try. The worst you could do is fail.

Anyways, D-Money, the person you described with average intelligence, work ethic, family connections and physical strength could very easily be an electrician or a dental hygenist and make more than $50K. There's always a way.


----------



## Dmoney

I think the main point in my post was overlooked by many: "below average work ethic". I firmly believe that anyone whether brilliant or average intelligence can succeed if they work hard enough. Luck plays a part, family connections, intelligence, opportunity etc. But hard work will pay off. 

I think some people are deluded into thinking that they have the work ethic to make it when in reality they do not. All the sporting examples are examples of people who have worked their asses off to get where they were already. Comparing MJ or Djokovic to the average student is like comparing Bill Gates to the average college drop-out. Sure he dropped out of college, but not to smoke weed and play video games.

I definitely think everyone has the ability to make six figures down the road, but I also know that the majority of those people don't have the work ethic to do it, and won't follow through. I have no problem with people "hoping", "aspiring" or "wanting" to make 90K, but "thinking"/"expecting" becomes an issue.


----------



## Four Pillars

Guigz said:


> Being unable to payback your $60K of student loans because you expected to gross $90K/year with your degree in english litterature and yet you only clear $35K/year?


Andrewf already answered this (they need a proper plan), but common sense has to play a part as well.

As Andrew also noted, there are two different conversations going on here, which apparently will never meet. 

My assumption is that a young person who is expecting/wanting to make $90k by age 30 (or whatever goal) is aware (or will soon learn by research) that $90k is well above average and they will have to take certain steps to make it happen.


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## the-royal-mail

There's a lot of simplification and rhetoric here with regards to work ethic. I cannot agree with the assertion that those who work hard will be rewarded with $90K+ salaries. I work in a professional capacity and I work my butt off. I learn the material and become expert at what I do. This is also true of my colleagues. Most of them are sharp and competent and super dedicated and hard workers. If you want something done right, talk to them.

None of these people make anywhere near $90K, not now, not in their 20s and not in the 30s or even 40s in many cases.

For many technical disciplines, upward mobility is limited. Not everyone aspires to be a manager or a director but even those who do, are shunned in favour of experienced managers and directors hired from the outside.

Please do not create false hope by deluding people that simple hard work and a good work ethic are going to guarantee $90K+ salaries. It's much more complicated than that.


----------



## kcowan

The fact is that most students have no idea what work means. The company that hires them sets the standard. I had peers from my engineering class get a job with Ontario Hydro. They did the work of technicians and felt that was normal. They made average salaries. I joined a very competitive company and competed. I consider that to be luck. But once I made that choice, I had to deal with that set of standards. Compete or be shuffled aside.

Look at all the kids who joined Wall Street firms in the 90s. Don't you think they knew that it would be harder work for better pay?


----------



## Eclectic12

kcowan said:


> The fact is that most students have no idea what work means. The company that hires them sets the standard.
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> Look at all the kids who joined Wall Street firms in the 90s. Don't you think they knew that it would be harder work for better pay?


+1 on the first company sets the standard.


Though I thought those joining Wall Street firms were enticed by the $$$ for relatively little work.

I can also remember before the tech crash in the 2000's hearing the advice to " ... take a job working the phones at a discount broker that pays only $30K salary. The real money is that you can sideline trade tech stocks."

Later in the same conversation, it was stated that "... I can't discipline a someone manning the phones when their sideline trades are making them $120K."


Cheers


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## Sampson

The poll or the original question is very silly. Who would respond "I think I'll be working a crappy job in the service industry earning $10/h"?

There are just too many assumptions running through this thread, but if I were to bring the conversation towards the question "does a sense of entitlement, or high expectation have lasting negative effects on kids?"

I think it can and growing amounts of research suggest that entitlement, limitless expectations, and all the 'positive' us parents give our children can result in clinical depression and other things when these kids realize they can't or won't attain the things they set out after.

http://www.psychology.sdsu.edu/new-web/FacultyLabs/twenge/TwengePublications.htm

I heard an interview with Dr. Twenge and she made a very interesting point about parents now (us), and before (our parents). Our parents were more concerned to help us be self-actualized and be able to take care or ourselves, happiness was secondary, as long as we could 'fend' for ourselves in the World. Parents these days are preoccupied with happy kids. Kids that get what they want, kids we have good relationships with, and kids that can become anything they want.

I'm not suggesting we put a limit on what teens think they can achieve, but perhaps we should rather break this chain of money=happiness/success. Why does someone need/want to make $90k/yr by the time they are 30. Certainly there are lots of us who haven't attained this but still can live well.


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## jcgd

Your success as a parent is measure by your child's height until they begin working. At that point there success is measure by their profession/ salary.


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## Guigz

Four Pillars said:


> Andrewf already answered this (*they need a proper plan*), but common sense has to play a part as well.


Yes, a payment plan. 

But I am being facetious.

I understand what you mean but I guess I am stuck on the disconnect between the expectations and the results.

It's kinda like having a poll where 80% percent of the people claim that they expect to win big at the lottery in the next 10 years. Statisticly, that is not going to happen.

Now, what shall I do with the millions of dollars that I will win at the lottery? I guess I could have a different Ferrari for every day of the week ('cept for Sunday, which is a clearly a Lamborghini day).


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## Preet

Fascinating conversation. I haven't gone through every single reply, but has someone raised the possibility that these kids are financial whiz kids who suspect global debt monetization and hyperinflation?


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## dogcom

How unfortunate for them that we face deflation at this time.


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## MoneyGal

OMG this must be an exciting discussion if Preet jumped in! 

BTW it might be interesting to correlate the posters suggesting that teens should not expect to earn "too much" because their expectations are out of whack with reality, with those posters suggesting that *their* expectations of having more than 25% of an average industrial wage replaced in retirement by CPP *are* realistic and should be funded by every working Canadian. 

(That sounds bitchier than I intend it to. I was just thinking about earning expectations - on one hand, there is a strain of discussion which says "you should only expect to earn some kind of average wage" while you are working and on the other, there is also a strain which says "replacing 25% of that average wage with longevity- and inflation-protected income in retirement via CPP is inadequate, and all working Canadians should fund a higher amount." I wonder if the posters making these arguments are the same people, or what.)


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## andrewf

Well, to be fair MG, one is easier to achieve than the other. If teens met that expectation, we would see a doubling of productivity (for that cohort, at least over their present day counterparts) in 10 years. I'm not seeing it. Doubling CPP benefits is just a matter of paying up.


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## MoneyGal

I'm really just thinking about expectations, not whether either outcome is achievable or how it would be implemented...


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## HaroldCrump

So, replacing 25% of wages in retirement is too much to ask for?
But it's perfectly ok to replace up to 70% of wages of certain sectors of the workers, paid for by the rest of tax payers?
Socialism for some, capitalism for others.


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## MoneyGal

25% is the current CPP replacement rate.


----------



## HaroldCrump

Right, and it must be that which is being called the retirement crisis.
If 25% were sufficient, what's the retirement crisis all about?
CPP is also inflation and longevity protected.
But apparently CPP + OAS is not enough to meet the retirement needs of workers.

The tax payer funded 70% is the other extreme and that is a problem too, esp. when you contrast with the 25% provided by CPP.


----------



## Guigz

HaroldCrump said:


> The tax payer funded 70% is the other extreme and that is a problem too, esp. when you contrast with the 25% provided by CPP.


Considering that the 25% of CPP is already counted in the 70% (most public plans are coordinated with CPP), what you really have is 45% salary replacement which is contributed both by the employees and the employers (8:5) usually.

So really, the "tax payers" are funding 27% of the salary replacement.


----------



## andrewf

Except that labour unions have a monopoly on government service provision, and use it to extract rents from the rest of us.


----------



## MoneyGal

Expanding CPP is also rent-seeking.


----------



## stephenheath

Guigz said:


> It's kinda like having a poll where 80% percent of the people claim that they expect to win big at the lottery in the next 10 years. Statisticly, that is not going to happen.


I think it was a few weeks or a month ago where a big survey was released, referenced here on CMF and a few other sites I visit, where something like 32% of retirees expected to win money in the lottery to make the budget work... so it's not just kids with such delusions.


----------



## Preet

MoneyGal said:


> OMG this must be an exciting discussion if Preet jumped in!


The alternative hypothesis is that Preet has been bloody lazy for three years. 



stephenheath said:


> I think it was a few weeks or a month ago where a big survey was released, referenced here on CMF and a few other sites I visit, where something like 32% of retirees expected to win money in the lottery to make the budget work... so it's not just kids with such delusions.


Oh boy. There's a column in that for sure. I'll look for that link, but if you find it, please do post it.


----------



## stephenheath

Traced it back to this Maclean's article, which mentions it's a Harris/Decima poll, not sure where to go to trace back further, but hope this helps:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/03/08/retirement-649/

I finally remembered the catchy "retirement-649" which is why I found this particular one, but there were tons of them at the time talking about it. I did think it was more recent than March though... I must be having fun if time is flying that fast


----------



## MoneyGal

Empirical evidence (from Florida) suggests that people who win large sums in lotteries are more prone to declare bankruptcy than the general population. I can find that study for you, if you're interested (Florida tracks and records all lottery winner data, and the study authors cross-checked the winners against bankruptcy records).


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## the-royal-mail

If people can't manage their money before a lottery win, why is anyone surprised they can't manage it afterwards?

I would be happy with a $1M prize but even if I had more than that I would absolutely manage the money properly.

I feel far too many people today are lacking in the basic skill of money management. There's plenty of evidence of this right here in CMF.


----------



## andrewf

MoneyGal said:


> Expanding CPP is also rent-seeking.



Rent seeking by who? Women?

I'm okay with some people collecting rents if it distributionally consistent with social welfare goals.

Edit: to be fair, CPP is clearly regressive in one way: richer people tend to live longer and thus get more value from the CPP than poorer individuals.


----------



## mfd

I make a good salary and I hate every minute of it. The thought of moving up sickens because I know I'll have to sell my soul. I would rather spend the time with my son.

P.S. I agree with Samson. What teenager is going to say "Meh I expect to work for minimum wage all my life"


----------



## K-133

Funnily enough...

http://business.financialpost.com/2011/11/30/genxers-least-happy-with-work/


----------



## mauricecowell

The more time spent at work, making money, the faster your wealth increases because you are making money and not out spending it.


----------



## james4beach

Yay, post # 200 !

I don't think the kids are any crazier than the adults who think the stock market will go straight up for the next 10 years


----------



## Eclectic12

DanFo said:


> I did it so why can't they??


From what I've observed, the most likely reason why not is that a high number have no idea what the market pays or how in demand their chosen area is yet still have high expectations. If they also aren't adaptable, then unless luck or family connections give a big boost - it's not going to happen.


Cheers


----------



## andrewf

"If I won the lottery, why can't everybody?"

Some processes are zero sum. That's why.


----------



## Eclectic12

Plugging Along said:


> I have to admit that I don't see anything wrong with it. These are the expectations (actually higher) that my siblings have instilled in my neices and nephews ...
> 
> I see nothing with aiming high, but also developing strategies and a clear plan to get to those goals. I see people who aim really high, but it's unrealistic as they don't have a plan, or their plan is not reality, I see people who aim too low, and get what they aim for, but not much more. I think with some of these teens, they need a reality check or someone to help them work out a plan.


Trouble is ... to hear some talk, job market supply/demand or willingness to relocate are non-factors compared to how they are owed their expectations.

Then too, a lot of parents I've talked to are painting the picture but have nothing to help provide a plan.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

Dmoney said:


> I think it's great to aspire to succeed, but most of these kids are out of touch with reality. Under 12% of *all workers* in Canada make over $75,000 according to stats canada, in 2009. Barely 5% make over $100K.


+1 ... the 2013 number say making $100K+ is down to 2.5% of workers.




Dmoney said:


> ... or putting in the hours and not getting the reward.


That's one of the other issues that few pay attention to, even if it is mentioned.

My sister complained for quite a while that she was under-paid. I asked her "would you ever move to another job?" When she said no, I asked why she thought that management who are trying to make as much money as possible would do much about it when they likely knew she wouldn't leave.

She has since left where her pay has skyrocketed.


I'm not saying pay is the end-all/be-all but that people expect "the boss will notice then reward me". There's not a lot of times I've seen that work out that well.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

jcgd said:


> How come us young people get so much crap from the generations before us?


I suspect it's because they've grown up differently.

My brother who was born in the earlier 50's used to hate it when my Aunt would give him crap (despite him not fitting the profile) for being lazy, ungrateful etc.


My dad talked about similar from his relatives where he was born in the early 20's.



There's new items but the general theme is human nature AFAICT.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

KaeJS said:


> ... Mining? That would be horrible.
> Electrician? Not as bad as mining, but it would still suck.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I like my cushy desk job and I am happy to be a pen-pusher. Er..... mouse clicker*.


That's where you are applying your personality. I know people who love these jobs and would hate doing what you love.

In fact, I know a former programmer who decided being laid off was the best thing that happened to him as his buddy helped him become an electrician. He now considers his time as a programmer as a waste of time.

The furnace technician who replaced my furnace burner was full of questions because he's discovered he loved the pay but hated the job.




KaeJS said:


> ... And we both know if you actually know what you are doing, transferring your money skills to your personal life is the best thing anyone can ever do.


And hopefully we also know that being a mouse clicker is no ticket to building or transferring money skills. Those who are constant learners who decide to spend time on it benefit.


Cheers


----------



## gibor365

> I think it's great to aspire to succeed, but most of these kids are out of touch with reality. Under 12% of all workers in Canada make over $75,000 according to stats canada, in 2009. Barely 5% make over $100K.


I'm not sure that "most" , my son doing double degree business/math , after 2.5 years he had already 2 coop terms at CIBC and TD and he starts 3rd one at BNS as trading assistant with pay much-much higher than average income of 25 to 29 years-olds with post-secondary degrees....
He's planning to be investment banking analysts ... so imho, it's pretty likely that in 5-10 years he will be making more than 91K...
Also all his friends (who are immigrants or kids of immigrants) studying civic , electrical engineering, software development etc... and it's also likely thay gonna get solid income ....
Interesting that 99% of students in his or similar program (Waterloo/Laurier) are immigrants or kids of immigrants, Canadian kids mostly learn different BS, like music or arts 
I'm curious what would be numbers if average income of 25 to 29 years-olds with post-secondary degrees will be split among Canadaian families and Immigrant's families


----------



## peterk

gibor said:


> Interesting that 99% of students in his or similar program (Waterloo/Laurier) are immigrants or kids of immigrants, Canadian kids mostly learn different BS, like music or arts


Most likely because Canadian kid's parents, teachers, and career guidance councilors took BS like music or arts, and everything worked out hunky dory for them.

I imagine that the average immigrant kid's parents and teachers did not have the same experience...


----------



## gibor365

peterk said:


> Most likely because Canadian kid's parents, teachers, and career guidance councilors took BS like music or arts, and everything worked out hunky dory for them.
> 
> I imagine that the average immigrant kid's parents and teachers did not have the same experience...


I just think that Canadian kid's parents even close didn't have life challenges that immigrants' families had.

btw, I don't think it's correct to refer to official income numbers, do you know how many construction workers, home-repair and auto-repair workers don't declare their income?! Or how many business owners who paying salaries to their spouses and kids for some "admin assistance work"


----------



## Eclectic12

crazyjackcsa said:


> marina628 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My nephew was a millionaire at 26 ,he owns a very large landscaping/snow removal business.He started working at 13 for himself and by 17 had 5 of his high school buddies working for him.He has a high school education that is it...
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but that's an exception, and not a rule.
Click to expand...

So is expecting to automatically hit $100K+ as apparently, 97.5% of Canadian workers aren't hitting it.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

jcgd said:


> ... What does getting a degree prove besides you are able to stick with it for four years and come up with $40k?
> ... School isn't the real world, and you can't fake it.


It isn't the real world but without experience - not having a degree typically tosses one's resume into the circular file instead of making it into the interview pile.

Case in point ... for six years, the lowest education held by a computer operator at the insurance company I worked at in the late 90's was BA (two Masters and one Phd that I am aware of). The guy doing the hiring intentionally tried hiring a guy with a high school diploma. The hope was the guy without a degree would last three or four years in the job where everyone else was moving to other parts of the company within two years or less. Somehow he managed to hire the other end of the spectrum as after crashing the company system twice during business hours (one when he was not working), the degree requirement came back into the picture.

I'm not saying I like it or that all degrees are worth while but where it's a pretty consistent message from those making the hiring decision - ignore at your own risk.

Full time computer operator was no where near $90K BTW.


Cheers


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## gibor365

> The guy doing the hiring intentionally tried hiring a guy with a high school diploma. The hope was the guy without a degree would last three or four years in the job where everyone else was moving to other parts of the company within two years or less.


 This is true and happens a lot. Some government (and only) companies have policies that after trial period (ex. 6 months), employee is eligible to request job as per his credentials and those companies refuse to hire master degree guy to work as an operator


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## Eclectic12

This was a private company (i.e. not gov't) so they could hire whatever they wanted at whatever rate they wanted.

Credentials didn't change the job/salary that was being offered/paid (ex. having the Masters didn't change the pay or shift work for being a computer operator but did mean getting an interview).

After the disaster with the diploma guy, the manager went back to using degrees to shorten the list of interview candidates.

Cheers


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## nobleea

Eclectic12 said:


> So is expecting to automatically hit $100K+ as apparently, 97.5% of Canadian workers aren't hitting it.
> 
> 
> Cheers


Weird. There's 750,000 teachers and professors in Canada right now (source
. That's 4.1% of all workers. I thought they all made 100K plus?? Hmm, maybe they don't.


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## crr243

nobleea said:


> Weird. There's 750,000 teachers and professors in Canada right now (source
> . That's 4.1% of all workers. I thought they all made 100K plus?? Hmm, maybe they don't.


My mother in law just retired after 33 years as a teacher.
My father in law has a Master's of Education and has been working about 30 years.

Neither makes 100k.

Here are some facts on teacher salaries specific to Alberta:

https://education.alberta.ca/admin/workforce/faq/teachers/teachersalaries/

And Newfoundland, where my in-laws are from and salaries cap out at $92k for the most experienced:
https://www.nlta.nl.ca/files/documents/agreements/prov_agmt.pdf#page=45

Professors certainly make much more, but the education requirements are also steeper.


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## Eclectic12

nobleea said:


> Eclectic12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So is expecting to automatically hit $100K+ as apparently, 97.5% of Canadian workers aren't hitting it.
> 
> 
> 
> Weird. There's 750,000 teachers and professors in Canada right now (source
> . That's 4.1% of all workers. I thought they all made 100K plus?? Hmm, maybe they don't.
Click to expand...

I suspect they aren't all that high ... in the meantime, for some reason I used the "$150K+ income" line instead of the "$100K+ income" line when dividing by the total number.

It should have been about 7.5% instead of 2.5%.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm


Cheers


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## Causalien

gibor said:


> I just think that Canadian kid's parents even close didn't have life challenges that immigrants' families had.
> 
> btw, I don't think it's correct to refer to official income numbers, do you know how many construction workers, home-repair and auto-repair workers don't declare their income?! Or how many business owners who paying salaries to their spouses and kids for some "admin assistance work"


There was a very important moment in my life where my father sat me down to talk about careers. He said: "Son, do you think you can become an actor in Canada competing against the local actors? Look and race aside, how long will it take for you to speak fluent English/French? That's how much of a head start they will have on you in acting. Now think about the fields where they will not have such advantage over you and go for it."

I hated him for crushing the dream promises I hear from everywhere in Canada where equality is for all. But I managed to look at things realistically. Because some part of me understands the truth in it.


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