# Has the light gone out?



## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

When I was young, we bought regular light bulbs...sometimes 4 for $1. They used a lot of cheap electricity, and lasted 2-3 years.

Today, in our more "enlightened" world, we can no lover do that...so we explore the "better" alternatives...

*Compact fluorescent*

Supposed to last up to 10 years and use less power...price accordingly it seems too. The savings go to the company instead of you.

I won't get into the crappy light, or the hum some of these give off, but has ANYONE had one of these things last longer than 2 years? I'm replacing them all the time. The extra electronics and mercury returning to the landfills can't be better than the power stations making power...

*Halogen
*
I quite like these for their light, but they too don't seem to last, cost a fortune, and are hard to find.

*LED
*
My electronics background says these should actually last a long time, but at $10/bulb on sale...not to mention it's hard to find one giving off more than the 40W equivalent...talk about returning to the dark ages...

I think we've seen another "bright idea" from the government in banning the old light bulbs...I'm off the compact fluorescents as soon as I run out...which should be about 6 months by the looks of things, considering I bought a case of them...


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

I bought a box of 60W incandescents a few years back, just as the new law was coming into effect. 48 bulbs for $50. I've used 4 bulbs from the box..... they seem to be indestructible. And, if one breaks, I don't have to call in the Hazmat team to clean up.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

We're switching over all our home lighting to LED's. You have to really watch, not all LED bulbs are the same - some are very low numbers (Lumens and Watts) while others are higher, and cost isn't necessarily an indicator. We bought some cheap LED fixtures from Costco, because they were cheap and included the bulbs, but they aren't the greatest for output.

I really like the LED's don't get hot like so many other bulbs do, and the costs of running them are a pittance, to the point we leave our garage interior light on because it's easier to see when we're coming in and out of the garage.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

in my condo we took advantage of a bc hydro rebate program and upgraded all lighting
all our emergency exit signs are led for example
we are saving a ton

power is not going to be getting cheaper and power consumption is the issue
riving the bulbs is as big an issue as the longevity of the bulbs themselves

though i agree, they should last until at least close to their estimated life


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

Just dealing with the issue that MR11 and MR16 LEDs don't cope well as replacements in halogen track lighting that has the transformers with each light. Annoying flicker from most LED bulbs I've tried so far. Might look into getting new fixtures for the old track that have GU10 bases. Otherwise it looks like LEDs are the way of the future.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

CFLs are alright, definitely don't last as long as they rate them but still pretty good. For around $1-1.25 each it's not that bad of a deal. I have some over two years old while others have died in as little as six months, they don't seem to like be switched on/off often. i write the year/month on each bulb base when I put them in so I know how long they've lasted.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

The ROI on CFLs or LEDs can be better than what you generally get from the stock market. Most of my older CFLs have lasted 10-12 years; some of the newer cheap ones last a year or less. My LEDs should last at least 10-15 years. Payback period is typically 2 years or less depending on electricity prices (here in Québec the payback period is considerably longer). After that it's all profit, even when you consider the slight reduction in heating benefit you get in winter from incandescents. It's a no-brainer.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

A friend lives totally off the grid on Galiano Island (Phillimore Point), and he keeps updated on the best of the CFLs and LEDs.

We have 250W heat lamps in our bathrooms and they are only available wholesale online (at $10 each for a case of 20). We can buy 60W incandescent bulbs in 4-packs at London Drugs.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Good idea Cainvest. We've done the same. Retailer we buy from will replace for free based on that date written on if they don't last like they should-no receipt required. We've replaced 2 this way so far.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

I just use CFL's.

I do like the use of LED for certain applications. My Saltwater Fishtank is solely lit by LED Spectrum lighting. I also like LED lighting strips for underneath kitchen cupboards and whatnot so it shines on the counter. Very nice feel and "night light" and it's great for actually cooking or using the counter.

Other than that, I use CFL's just about everywhere. I'm not a fan of bright light to begin with (hurts my eyes. I have photosensitivity and wear contacts) so I pretty much only use the little 13watt buggers. Even in the washrooms, where typically there will be 2-4 sockets, I usually only use 1 or 2 if necessary. One of my bathrooms has 5 sockets and there are only 2 sockets actually being used.

I do, however, have a 100watt flood light over my garage and a 26watt CFL at my doorstep. I am a little bit preoccupied with protection at present.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Just a Guy said:


> When I was young, we bought regular light bulbs...sometimes 4 for $1. They used a lot of cheap electricity, and lasted 2-3 years.
> 
> Today, in our more "enlightened" world, we can no lover do that...so we explore the "better" alternatives...
> 
> ...


I have CFLs in my house, for just about 4 years now.
Crappy light? They come in different temperatures, pick the right one.
I don't hear a hum, I'd return it if I did.

Mercury in landfill? It's negligible, plus it's in a landfill, not floating down the river. You've got to remember with garbage, it's buried under ground, which is most likely where it came from in the first place.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

fatcat said:


> in my condo we took advantage of a bc hydro rebate program and upgraded all lighting
> all our emergency exit signs are led for example
> we are saving a ton
> 
> ...


The* "old coot" is back*..this time with a techno explanation for all yas techno-dummies...LOL! I hope yas found something to keep yas amused while I was taking a hiatus
from yas all. :biggrin:

LED WHITE lighting technology is in its early stages of developement. The first commercially viable HPLED 'WHITE' LED light device was only invented in 2010 by a Japanese company and uses InGAN technology for producing white light and that is not even white light as we know it from the RGB combining of 3 colours..Red/Green/Blue as first demonstrated with the old cathode ray picture tubes (CRT) in early colour TVs and now the flat screen LED offerings. BTW..InGAn (stands for Indium, Gallium and NitriDe)..the first two materials are
on the periodic table of the elements and have been used for manufacturing LEDs for many years now..at low output levels of course. 
Even with this technological marvel discovery, the LED actually still produces BLUE spectrum visible light and has to be diffused (by another material which soaks up luminosity
produced to articially convert the blue spectrum to visible light spectrum as our eyes (rods and cones) can interpret as light.. called YAG phosphor. 
A common yellow phosphor material is cerium-doped yttrium aluminium garnet (Ce3+:YAG).

LEDs are most efficient in the infrared spectrum and the ultraviolet spectrum depending on doping, layering (infrasture such as epitaxial layering), type of semiconductors used, and diffusing..
They have pretty much replaced all other types of indicators..and excel in that category.

White lighting to replicate incandescent lighting (tungsten carbide/hologen/sodium etc) is another development universe that has all sorts of problems that have yet to be solved. 
However, quantum leaps have been made in that area in the last 4 years since the inception of high intensity LEDs for lighting to replace CFL (mercury and diffused phosphor coatings technology
requiring higher voltages and ballasts..that's where that buzzing sound comes in the base..it is a tiny ballast transformer built in.

There is a lot of research going on in white LED lighting rignt now and HAITZ'S Law applies (similar to MOORE'S law for technolgical improvements in computers) where it is stated that:
every decade the COST per lumen falls by a factor of 10 ...and ..the amount of light generated by a LED package increases by a factor of 20....

However, that being said..with the present LED technology, the theoretical limit of 250 Lumens per watt consumed is the hurdle that scientists and developers must overcome to make LEDs
commercially viable and cost effective as lighting. 

Right now overheating of LED packages is the biggest enemy of LED longevity.

Carve (call 1- 800 HOWS MY POSTINGS?) Man


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Dialing ... the 1-800-# above ... ring ring ring ... leaving a message - are we supposed to understand all that to change a lightbulb, Professor? :biggrin:


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> are we supposed to understand all that to change a lightbulb, Professor? :biggrin:


If you can't understand, there is always the financial section Beav. 

I'm a hopeless techno dummy; barely understand blown tv. capacitors...sigh.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> I'm a hopeless techno dummy; barely understand blown tv. capacitors...sigh.


Me, I've barely mastered the pencil.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Not to worry, you got the e-book, e-pad, ipad, ipod, e-i-o-this-and-that these days ... who need the pencil when you have your finger, thumb up!:biggrin:


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Good to see you back, Carverman - but I don't understand a word of your post!

I'm like Steve - I stocked up on incandescent bulbs while they were still available. I tried the CFL bulbs and hated them.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Dialing ... the 1-800-# above ... ring ring ring ... leaving a message - are we supposed to understand all that to change a lightbulb, Professor? :biggrin:


Sorry, about that Beav, I'm trying to find a bot solution to answering my 1-800 phone line..hopefully with my scientific explanations of this and that.. readers will be bored to death rather
than mad as H*ll at me. I have turned over a new leaf..from now on..I'm "Mr Wonderful"...whoops can't use that moniker...some guy on Dragon's Den is already using it. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Toronto.gal said:


> If you can't understand, there is always the financial section Beav.
> 
> I'm a hopeless techno dummy; barely understand blown tv. capacitors...sigh.


What is a capacitor T_gal....it's simply a storage device for farads...often expressed in Uf (u - micro or 10-6 farads) or pf (pico farads 10 -12 farads). 
very simple actually. 
Capacitors such as electrolytic storage capacitors turn rectified AC (or a we EE types refer to it.."rectum-fried" sine waves (that's yer AC) from a diode bridge,
and the time constants inside the large capacitor allows the 120hz ripple from the bridge rectifiers to be smoothed out,
to allow a DC to be presented to micro circuits or audio amplifiers. 

Each capacitor, be it electrolytic, or mica or polyester...has a capacitance value and a working DC voltage. If the dielectric inside the capacitor is exceeded by a applied voltage, the dielectric breaks down and the two plates of the aluminium capacitor with the electrolyte break down..and a "hole' is punched through by the voltage..shorting out the capacitor and rendering it useless.
Also electrolytic capacitors *caps: have a nasty habit of blowing up in your face if a reverse dc polarity is applied to it's terminals. It will go off with a "big bang" (nothing to do with the big bang theory)
and bits of it will be stuck in your face and all over the room...gotta watch that reverse polarity!

I can get into Capacitive Reactance formulas (Xc).,.but this may be a bit more electrical engineering than you want to get into right now..I understand..you have to crawl before you walk in DC theory.:biggrin:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i think it has to be rapid cycling ...


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> Good to see you back, Carverman - but I don't understand a word of your post!
> 
> I'm like Steve - I stocked up on incandescent bulbs while they were still available. I tried the CFL bulbs and hated them.


Good thing that you did Karen. 

Because of conservation laws passed in the US by the EPA, incandescent light bulbs (tungsten type) have gone the way of the dinosaurs. Speciality lighting like projector bulbs
or low voltage *12 or 24 volt will still be made..but those old familiar bulbs we have grown up with are now manufacture discontinued as of January this year, because most are made by manufacturers in the US that have to comply with the new standards. 

As a matter of fact, even those familiar 48 inch fluorescent tubes T-12s are no longer made either..replaced by a new size T-8 that won't fit/work into the
old reflector sockets in the existing fixtures..you have to buy NEW fixtures with the new tubes! Instead of 40 watt lighting with the T12, you get 34watt lighting
with the T8s..that's about an 8 percent reduction in lumens with the energy savings you get with the new T8 tubes...you don't get something for nothing
anymore..it is pay more and get less these days. 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/07/us_doe_light_bulb_efficiency_s.html


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> As a matter of fact, even those familiar 48 inch fluorescent tubes T-12s are no longer made either..replaced by a new size T-8 that won't fit into the old reflector sockets in the existing fixtures..you have to buy NEW fixtures with the new tubes!


You sure about that ... I thought the new T8 fit right in the older T12 fixtures.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

carverman said:


> What is a capacitor T_gal....it's simply a storage device for farads...often expressed in Uf (u - micro or 10-6 farads) or pf (pico farads 10 -12 farads).
> very simple actually.
> Capacitors such as electrolytic storage capacitors turn rectified AC (or a we EE types refer to it.."rectum-fried" sine waves (that's yer AC) from a diode bridge,
> and the time constants inside the large capacitor allows the 120hz ripple from the bridge rectifiers to be smoothed out,
> ...


Thank you. each:

*Nemo:* there aren't many good male calligraphers, are there?


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I think resistance to CFLs and LEDs boils down to one (or both) of two things: 1) you don't like the quality of the light, or 2) you don't like them because you feel like you're being forced to use them.

CFLs are available in a wide range of "warmth," from cold and blueish to warm. Some models even work with dimmers. LEDs are available in an even broader spectrum; I have a set of Philips Hue lights, which can be controlled through a cellphone or tablet; you can adjust their warmth and hue to whatever you like -- from deep red through yellow and blue. You can have a nice soft warm light, or a bright concetrated light for reading. The Hue lets you set up themes (you can import a photo of your favorite vacation spot and it'll do its best to match the mood by matching the colors), and my favourite feature is that it also lets you set up times for your lights to come on and off without having to buy and install a separate timer. We use it whenever we go on vacation. The Hues are much more expensive than standard LEDs, but we would have had to hire an electrician to set up a timer system for our wall switches so it probably ends up being cheaper in the long run. Regardless, they're fun lights and we don't regret buying them.

The ROI and simple payback depend how long you typically use your lights per day, the price of electricity, and the price of the bulb. But as a general rule CFLs and the cheaper LEDs should pay for themselves in 2-3 years, and then you've got another 10-15 years of pure profit in the form of energy savings. You couldn't pay me to buy an incandescent light nowadays, it's a waste of money.


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## Nemo2 (Mar 1, 2012)

Toronto.gal said:


> *Nemo:* there aren't many good male calligraphers, are there?


I didn't say I was _good_....I keep holding the damn pencil sideways!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> You sure about that ... I thought the new T8 fit right in the older T12 fixtures.


I was questionlng that myself as I wanted to buy a couple of "Grolux" special plant florescent tubes which have a pinkish light-warmer spectrum, last fall. 

Both H-D and Rona, where I looked told me that the T8 will NOT work with the T-12 (larger diameter) 48 inch tube fixtures that I already had with the big plant reflectors,
and I needed to buy the new flourescent fixture that is designed for the T8..costly. 

I finally manged to find some old stock 2 T-12s after a much searching. They are no longer made, so I was lucky to find them..in an electrical store. 

*You will damage the ballasts or have very short lamp life, T8 lamps w/ T12 ballasts will burn out prematurely[/B Ballasts are designed to be used w/ specific lamps & one should not use other then the lamps they were designed for. Compared to the old ballasts that used to last 25-40 years, the new electronic ballasts don't last very long. 

T12 tubes on a T8 ballast will shorten the lifespan of the ballast.

T8 tubes on a T12 ballast will shorten the lifespan of the tubes.*


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

carverman said:


> T12 tubes on a T8 ballast will shorten the lifespan of the ballast.
> 
> T8 tubes on a T12 ballast will shorten the lifespan of the tubes.


Ok, so you're statement about they "won't fit" is wrong but you're not supposed to intechange the two bulbs types due to potential ballast issues.
In that case you don't need to replace the fixture, you just need to get a new electronic ballast.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

brad said:


> The Hues are much more expensive than standard LEDs, but we would have had to hire an electrician to set up a timer system for our wall switches so it probably ends up being cheaper in the long run. Regardless, they're fun lights and we don't regret buying them.
> 
> The ROI and simple payback depend how long you typically use your lights per day, the price of electricity, and the price of the bulb. But as a general rule CFLs and the cheaper LEDs should pay for themselves in 2-3 years, and then you've got another 10-15 years of pure profit in the form of energy savings. You couldn't pay me to buy an incandescent light nowadays, it's a waste of money.


Ouch! That kind of takes the fun out of being frugal when you have to hire an electrician to set up a timer system. 
Who would have imagined that our lives would get MORE COMPLICATED from lightbulbs..or lighting devices as they are now called. 

The old light bulbs they have been making the same way for 75 years, (which had become so cheap to buy... until they came out with more expensive CFLs,) which are the cheapest way to light your house, even it they still use more electricity. 

Consider the cost of these new LED bulbs, btw; we still don't know their true life time before failure, and IF we factor in the true number of hours, can we determine if there is any cost savings to be had..even with the jump in electricity rates.

I remember reading years ago, when I was a "younger coot' from the GE Semiconductor manual, that they had determined that the lifespan of a transistor was about 40 years. How did they figure that out? by doing bench testing and accelerated ageing..and adding a fudge factor on to that.

Since the first point contact germanium transistor was invented in Bell Labs in 1947..it has been 67 years. The newer ones are mostly silicon. 

Of course, with the obsolescence factor in consumer and industrial electronics..if there is any original germanium transistors still in use today..they could be seen as surpassing the theoretical lifetime..but if we even use 40 years benchmark as the expected lifetime...
1974 would be year 1 for any modern transistor manufactured/incorporated in a consumer product.

I wonder how many electronic devices made back then would still be functional today..as most would be thrown out or recycled by now?

Not so with LEDs..especially these high power "white light" LEDs. If you manage to get say 30,000 hours continuous burning from them..that's about 6 years expected lifetime. 

http://www.cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/us-doe/lifetime_white_leds_aug16_r1.pdf


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Received a delivery today ... a free 60w equiv. LED bulb compliments of our local hydro company. 

So comparing the light to an old standard 60w bulb, it's pretty close, maybe just a slight bit less yellow. Brightness seems to be higher on the LED though it's rated at 800 Lumens, about the same as a new incandescent supposedly. If the prices come down (this one seems to sell for ~$14 online) to something reasonable ($2-$3) I'd have no issues with going to LED.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Received a delivery today ... a free 60w equiv. LED bulb compliments of our local hydro company.
> 
> So comparing the light to an old standard 60w bulb, it's pretty close, maybe just a slight bit less yellow. Brightness seems to be higher on the LED though it's rated at 800 Lumens, about the same as a new incandescent supposedly. If the prices come down (this one seems to sell for ~$14 online) to something reasonable ($2-$3) I'd have no issues with going to LED.


It's only in the last 2 or 3 years where these multi-LED (2700K)screw-in candelabra base bulbs have become even close to affordable at $14 on line. Even with the power savings in mind, a 60 watt equivalent LED bulb uses about 6.5 watts..that's what the old Christmas tree bulbs used to consume, so there is a definite power savings there...but it's the high cost of
these right now..compared to what you could buy a 60w incadescent in packages of 10 for less than 50c each in some cases.

If you look at the Cree (Indian?) name brand LED made in China of course, they run somewhere between $11.48 on line and $14 in store (where available). The online ones with shipping will probably run pretty much the same. 

http://www.amazon.com/Cree-9-5-Watt-White-2700K-6-Pack/dp/B00DLI7TXO/ref=pd_cp_hi_0

These apparently come with a 10 year guarantee..so IF you ran the bulb for 10 years of *continuous use*..you would get about 50,000 hours of EXPECTED USAGE, but that is not guaranteed, so this company offers a guarantee if the bulb fails prematurely..but like with any other guarantee of a product that is warranted this long (10 years is a L-o-n-g time), *you have to save the original sales receipt, provide date of installation (not storage until needed) and the ridiculous shipping charges that CP now wants WAIT for
the defective bulb to get to Cree and wait for them to process the warranty and you WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR SHIPPING BOTH WAYS!


As you may remember from the old incandescent bulbs, they burn out when turned on..never turning off..so I expect that the inrush voltage surge will have similar effects
on the longevity of these bulbs..plus the added problem, that LED do not handle heat very well...... unlike the proverbial incandescent bulb. 

IF the LEDs overheat (due to high room temperatures etc) or inadequate internal heat sinking + the actual semiconductor material breakdown..they will not reach the expected lifetime at full original brightness and get dim with age. 

This fact, along with the 10 year "so called" warranty, will result in most people tossing them in the garbage (like the old bulbs) buying a replacement right away!

http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/171856-cree-led-bulb-lineup-expands-to-75w




On the design side, the Cree 13.5W is nearly identical to the Cree TW, which is to say that it looks like a slightly larger version of the standard 60W model. Basically, all the main components are same, but the metal collar heatsink was made slightly large to dissipate the extra 4W. Interestingly, the filament tower design was not changed so it still uses two rings of ten Cree LEDs to emit light. What Cree did to increase the lumen count was to simply overdrive the high-power LEDs — this uses more power and puts out more heat, but the added cooling prevents it from affecting the lifespan of the LEDs (according to Cree).

Click to expand...



CP's RIDICULOUS SHIPPING CHARGES NOW
----------------------------------------
*
(yesterday, I sent a set of motor brushes (less than 1 ounce, packaged in a tiny box to the Scooter store in Colorado..as they sent me the wrong brushes...the cost of the brushes was $29.99 US + original shipping and HST I had to pay CP....sending them back, it cost me #16.86 ($15.86 for the shipping charge + fuel surcharge 1.10 ). 
The company charges 10% restocking, so if I get $10 back from the cost of the motor brushes..I will be lucky)


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

carverman said:


> Not so with LEDs..especially these high power "white light" LEDs. If you manage to get say 30,000 hours continuous burning from them..that's about 6 years expected lifetime.


Yes, but who burns lights continuously, 24 hours/day? Even in winter most of my lights are on only 4-6 hours/day; my home office light is probably on the longest, about 12 hours/day, less if it's sunny outside and I can use daylight.

The first six or seven CFLs I bought (actually won in a contest sponsored by my electric utility) lasted me 8-12 years, and I have two here in our house now that I bought in 2002. Time will tell with the LEDs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they last even longer in terms of normal household use. None of our LEDs have burned out yet, but that's to be expected; the oldest ones in our house are about 3 or 4 years old now.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

brad said:


> Yes, but who burns lights continuously, 24 hours/day? Even in winter most of my lights are on only 4-6 hours/day; my home office light is probably on the longest, about 12 hours/day, less if it's sunny outside and I can use daylight.
> 
> The first six or seven CFLs I bought (actually won in a contest sponsored by my electric utility) lasted me 8-12 years, and I have two here in our house now that I bought in 2002. Time will tell with the LEDs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they last even longer in terms of normal household use. None of our LEDs have burned out yet, but that's to be expected; the oldest ones in our house are about 3 or 4 years old now.


You seem to be having good luck with them Brad. 

The 50K hours of the Cree bulbs would be a projected lifetime..of 10 years or more...depending on who makes them and whether the line voltage
is consistent in your home and how much you use them of course...theoretically speaking..if you NEVER use them..they will last indefinitely.
....well past the "normal life time" of a person (say 80 years)..:biggrin:

however, these are meant to be used and many other factors apply that affect their expected longevity.
Nobody can predict their MTBF (mean time between failures) just as nobody can predict their expected lifetime vs actual hours of use. 

If we were to take the theoretical number of 30,000-50,000 hrs (approx 10 years) and extrapolate their actual use of 4-5 hrs or even 8-12 hrs.. over their theoritical lifetime 
it could be expected to extend their lifetime of use by a factor of 3 or even 4 .

150,000 hours..that about 30 years..some of you regulars on CMF may actually live long enough to see the day when that LED light bulb you bought 30 years ago..stops working:congratulatory:

200,000 hrs is about 40 years...that approaches the theoritical limit of most semiconductors life time..and that would be a semiconductor used only by a
"little old lady only on Sundays"...(joke here.like the car salesman would tell you if you were looking for a good used car)

In my (learned and not so humble) opinion..the realistic life time of these bulbs are somewhere between 35,000 hrs and 50,000 hrs... and yours seem to be subscribing to this theory of about 8 to 12 years,


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

brad said:


> Yes, but who burns lights continuously, 24 hours/day?


I have one light that never goes off, very little natural light gets in that room. Thinking about changng it out with the LED as a test but the CFL seems to do well there even though the LED would save me a whopping 3 watts!


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

http://www.centennialbulb.org


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Just a Guy said:


> http://www.centennialbulb.org


A case for Ripley's Believe it or not...a incandescent bulb burning since 1901..that would make it 113 years old....older than most of us on CMF...older than me too..
and I'm one of the older coots on this forum.

I guess the old adage *"they don't make them like they used to"* ..applies here...burning continuously for 113 years with a minor blackout due to a new fangled UPS supply
(that's Uninterrupted Power Supply)..to yas "techno- peasants" out there...a device that supplies constant voltage and current in an uninterrupted circuit..
to keep things going even if everything else fails. 

How does the UPS work? I can explain..but you may not understand and I may have to k*ll you:biggrin: ..so we will skip the explanation.

How does a tungsten filament from the days of Thomas Edison still keep working after all these years?

Voltage ? Current? Mysterous gas inside found only on the planet Krypton? Misdating the year of the bulb's manufacture...lets face it..most of those that were around in the fire station when it was first
lit in 1901..are no longer around now.

The bulb has gone through:

First flight by the Wright Brothers
Sinking of the Titanic
The beginning of WWI (assassination of archduke Ferdinand of Serbia_
The swinging twenties
The dirty thirties
The great depression
The rise of the n*z* to power
The second world war
The demise of H**er
The dropping of the A-Bomb
The iron curtain
A period of high growth and expansion in America
The Vietnam war
The Assassination of Pres Kennedy
The resignation of Nixon
Steve Jobs and the formation of Apple
Bill Gates and the formation of MicroSoft
Ronald Regan and Gorbachov and Glasnost
The Clinton Years
The George H Bush and Desert Storm in Iraq/Kuwait
9/11
Osama Bin Laden and al-Qa'ida
The Geo "Dubya" Bush era..."WMD and "shock and awe'.."Mission Accomplished" years
The great recession of 2008
Pres Obama and Obama Care
The Asian-ization of the American economy
More "Mission Un-Accomplished" in Syria and Iraq
Putin's Winter Olympics
Israel and Palistine at each other throats
Fighting in the Ukraine and downing of MH17
Peace in the Middle East..over and over..

..and still it keeps on burning! One of life true unexplained mysteries...lets leave it at that.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman said:


> a incandescent bulb burning since 1901..that would make it 113 years old....
> 
> How does the UPS work? I can explain..but you may not understand and I may have to k*ll you:biggrin: ..so we will skip the explanation.



oh, let's not skip the explanation, it's possible that i might own one of those bulbs.

about 15 years ago somebody gave me a light bulb. It was an ordinary GE bulb complete with the brand & watt stamping on the glass bulb, except that something was soddered onto its screw-in base. Not to the sides, but to the bottom of the base.

the donor said he'd bought it in a health food store. He said the bulb would last the rest of my life.

doubtfully, i installed it in a hallway with a high ceiling.

that was 15 years ago & today the bulb is as good as new.

i remember that the soddered bit was small & innocuous-looking. It looked as if it had been added by hand, by a fairly skilled metal worker.

go ahead, carve, kill me with the explanation.

btw in terms of consumption, this bulb is probably drawing as much electricity as any other incandescent bulb, possibly even more, so it doesn't compare to today's LED lights. Its only advantage comes from not having to throw a light bulb in the trash every few months.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

carverman said:


> The beginning of WWI (assassination of archduke Ferdinand of Serbia_


Nitpick - Ferdinand was Archduke _*of*_ Austria-Hungary, not Serbia.
He was assassinated *in *Serbia, thereby causing the Austro-Hungarian empire to declare war on Serbia.

But 1 lone mistake in that long list I can probably forgive


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

it occurs to me that possibly my health food store bulbil is a UPS & it's constantly returning voltage & current night & day ...

i seem to recall how once, testing the new hydro meters, we turned off every single electrical in the house. The appliances are nearly all gas or oil so it was easy to make sure that nothing electrical was running.

but outside, the new hydro meter kept lazily turning, as if _*some*_ _*phantom*_ _*thing*_ in the house were consuming electricity ...

omg, was it the lifetime bulbil?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

So I gather the bulb was off before when they first plugged it to the UPS?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> it occurs to me that possibly my health food store bulbil is a UPS & it's constantly returning voltage & current night & day ...
> 
> i seem to recall how once, testing the new hydro meters, we turned off every single electrical in the house. The appliances are nearly all gas or oil so it was easy to make sure that nothing electrical was running.
> 
> ...


Or,

1> You missed unplugging something.
2> Your Hydro company is ripping you off by charging you when no power is used.
3> ?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

cainvest said:


> So I gather the bulb was off before when they first plugged it to the UPS?


they izz me. I just got up on a ladder & screwed the new bulb into the ceiling fixture (it's a 12-foot ceiling so not the easiest thing to reach).

climbed down the ladder & turned the new bulb *on* by flipping the light swich for the ceiling fixture. Bulb went on. The light looked like what you'd expect from a 100-watt GE incandescent bulb.

that was 15 years ago. Bulb has been working A-OK ever since.

.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

cainvest said:


> Or,
> 
> 1> You missed unplugging something.
> 2> Your Hydro company is ripping you off by charging you when no power is used.
> 3> ?



it was definitely *not* 1)

the local hydro could be ripping me off; however the consumption we saw was minimal, just a very slow revolution of the metering wheel

or else it was the bulb from the granola store, unbeknownst to everybody it was a UPS ... as i say, there was a tiny metal disk soddered onto the base of the bulb's screw assembly


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

I wonder if humble_pie's incandescent bulb and the 110 yr. old one may actually be "defective" items.
In other words, regular bulbs have a built in "blow-out" feature.
These two somehow got by i.e. are "defective".

Perhaps there are other, a small handful of similar perpetual bulbs still burning around the world that no one seems to have noticed.

GE & other original incandescent bulk manufacturers had to build in some sort of "blowout" feature lest they go out of business.
Just like modern electronics & software have built-in obsolescence.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> I wonder if humble_pie's incandescent bulb and the 110 yr. old one may actually be "defective" items.
> In other words, regular bulbs have a built in "blow-out" feature.
> These two somehow got by i.e. are "defective".



sounds well & good but what about the fact that it was being sold in the health food store as a lifetime bulb?

what about the fact that somebody, somewhere, had quite expertly soddered a tiny disc about a millimetre thick onto the base of the screw-in assembly?

these do not sound like random accidents ...


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carverman if you can explain just what should be in that soddered-on disc on the lifetime light bulb & how to make em, then the folks who recently purchased cases of incandescents have a great little home business that's begging for a launch


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

humble_pie said:


> it was definitely *not* 1)
> 
> the local hydro could be ripping me off; however the consumption we saw was minimal, just a very slow revolution of the metering wheel


Why not just switch off the main electrical breaker then no power would get through to the house from the meter, no need to turn off everything in the house.



humble_pie said:


> or else it was the bulb from the granola store, unbeknownst to everybody it was a UPS ... as i say, there was a tiny metal disk soddered onto the base of the bulb's screw assembly


I'm going to have to say no to the UPS and yes to it just being a tiny metal disk, maybe providing a better electrical connection or correct socket length.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

I remember a trip I took up to Dawson city. It's an historical town, so they try to keep it as "authentic" as possible for the tourists...

Apparently, the company who manufactured the old style incandescent bulbs was going out of business, so the town bought out their remaining stock of bulbs, since no more would be produced. The only problem was, since that day they've only needed to replace two bulbs...it's turned I to a storage issue.

The old bulbs had bigger filaments and worked at a lower wattage, so the filament doesn't break easily.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> oh, let's not skip the explanation, it's possible that i might own one of those bulbs.


Humble? you talking to me???..moi?..I'm shocked...well thank you for that!



> about 15 years ago somebody gave me a light bulb. It was an ordinary GE bulb complete with the brand & watt stamping on the glass bulb, except that something was soddered onto its screw-in base. Not to the sides, but to the bottom of the base.


Hmm..this is intriguing "H"..if something was soldered to the screw base, howdid you manage to screw in the lightbulb in the first place?..never mind don't answer that...:biggrin:



> the donor said he'd bought it in a health food store. He said the bulb would last the rest of my life.


Health food store? Must have been one of those organic Himalayan salt bulbs...made in Katmandu....by the righteous monks.


> doubtfully, i installed it in a hallway with a high ceiling.
> that was 15 years ago & today the bulb is as good as new.


Well that's good enough for me then...an organic bulb in high places. 



> i remember that the soddered bit was small & innocuous-looking. It looked as if it had been added by hand, by a fairly skilled metal worker.
> go ahead, carve, kill me with the explanation.


Hmmmm lets see..something soldered to the base in series with the filament which is basically a tungsten wire in a spiral fashion. Two things come to mind that have been used traditionally
in what I would call a "bulb saver"..

These are usually either Negative Temperature Coefficient (NTC) thermisters or simple diodes.

The idea with tungsten filaments is to* limit the in rush current (filament shock) to a cold filament*...the NTC thermistor limits the inrush current until the filament heats up..heating up the bulb which then the Thermistor senses the bulb socket temperature and allows more voltage to be applied to the heated filament. 

When cold, NTC thermisters have a high resistance. As they warm up, the resistance decreases so that the current to the light bulb is ramped up
gradually rather than being applied suddenly. This increases the life of the bulb dramatically.

Normally, the one end of the filament is connected (soldered) to the spiral base "button" and the other end of the filament is soldered to the top part of the metal socket/
This arrangement conveniently allows for a device such as thermistor (temperature dependent resistor) or a diode..which is a half wave rectifier that blocks one part of the RMS 120 volt sine
wave AC and the bulb runs on basically half current..which reduces the lumens available a bit..but adds to the longevity of a bulb as well. 

RMS= Root Mean Square or .707 of the peak wave measured in terms of voltage..or for bulbs..the true heating effect.



> btw in terms of consumption, this bulb is probably drawing as much electricity as any other incandescent bulb, possibly even more, so it doesn't compare to today's LED lights. Its only advantage comes from not having to throw a light bulb in the trash every few months.


The two simple "bulb saving" devices explained above will not change the wattage of the bulb. 

Long lasting lightbulbs is a urban legend...just when you think yours is the longest lasting...somebody else comes along and proves you wrong. :biggrin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest-lasting_light_bulbs

Ummm..so WHERE IS MY PIE?:biggrin:


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## Guban (Jul 5, 2011)

MrMatt said:


> Mercury in landfill? It's negligible, plus it's in a landfill, not floating down the river. You've got to remember with garbage, it's buried under ground, which is most likely where it came from in the first place.


If mercury is in the landfill, and it stayed there, there isn't a problem. Issues arise when mercury is carried away by ground water and then floats down the river and gets into lakes. Mercury does come from the ground, but deeper and in the form of more stable compounds.

All that being said, it sounds like the environmental damage from the mercury in a CFL is less than the pollution generated from making the electricity to run a normal incandescent bulb if you live in a province that generates a lot of electricity using fossil fuels.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Guban said:


> If mercury is in the landfill, and it stayed there, there isn't a problem. Issues arise when mercury is carried away by ground water and then floats down the river and gets into lakes. Mercury does come from the ground, but deeper and in the form of more stable compounds.
> 
> All that being said, it sounds like the environmental damage from the mercury in a CFL is less than the pollution generated from making the electricity to run a normal incandescent bulb if you live in a province that generates a lot of electricity using fossil fuels.


Yes, you have a point there. One of the reasons that the gas generators were cancelled in Oakville and Mississauga by the provincial Liberal gov't. I read that the people that
lived in areas around the proposed gas plants hired consultants from the US..one was the famous Erin Brockovich from the movie of the same name. 



> A typical fluorescent bulb discarded in 2003 might release between 3 and 8 mg of elemental mercury vapors over two weeks.
> Since about *620 million fluorescent bulbs are discarded yearly in the U.S.*, discarded bulbs could release approximately *2 to 4 tons of mercury per year in the U.S*.
> *Airborne levels of mercury in the vicinity of recently broken bulbs could exceed occupational exposure limits.*


It's more than just mercury getting into ground water Guban. Most modern landfills these days are checked occassionally by the ministry of the environment..not to say that a few broken tubes
and other nasty liquids can't sneak in through regular garbage disposal. There is still a LOT OF MERCURY around in households...mercury furnace thermostats, thermometers are a couple major
sources of elemental mercury and those need to be disposed of properly, just like discared smoke detectors which use the element Americum as the elemental detector for smoke particles. 

Americium is a *radioactive transuranic chemical element that has the symbol Am and atomic number 95*



> Americium is the only synthetic element to have found its way into the household, where one common type of smoke detector uses 241Am in the form of *americium dioxide *as its source of ionizing radiation.[91] This isotope is preferred over 226Ra because it emits 5 times more alpha particles and relatively little harmful gamma radiation.





> Americium was first produced in 1944 . Although it is the third element in the *transuranic series,* it was discovered fourth, after the heavier curium. The discovery was kept secret and only released to the public in November 1945. Most americium is produced by bombarding uranium or plutonium with neutrons in nuclear reactors – one tonne of spent nuclear fuel contains about 100 grams of americium. It is widely used in commercial ionization chamber smoke detectors,





> Americium often enters landfills from discarded smoke detectors. The rules associated with the disposal of smoke detectors are relaxed in most jurisdictions


The dangers to health..if somehow ingested.


> If consumed, americium is excreted within a few days and only 0.05% is absorbed in the blood.* From there, roughly 45% of it goes to the liver and 45% to the bones*, and the remaining 10% is excreted. The uptake to the liver depends on the individual and increases with age. In the bones, americium is first deposited over cortical and trabecular surfaces and slowly redistributes over the bone with time. *The biological half-life of 241Am is 50 years in the bones and 20 years in the liver,* whereas in the *gonads (testicles and ovaries) it remains permanently; in all these organs*,* americium promotes formation of cancer cells as a result of its radioactivty*.


In most large municipal dumps, the garbage goes into specially prepared leaching beds under the garbage, that is monitored and pumped and the leachant is disposed of
in a hazardous waste manner.
Ottawa-Carleton Trail Road dump site is a 24/7 monitored/gated site that has leaching beds and gas emission venting. However, the gas emissions was not captured in 
past years and would release a very foul odor to surrounding nearby populated areas. It may be now burned off added as a fuel in a pilot project to incinerate some of the refuse.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carve i take it your message No. 48 just upthread is not describing how a UPS works but instead it's describing how a thermister or a diode works in conjunction with a tungsten filament?

then there's JAG's theory that old light bulbs have thicker filaments so they don't burn out so quickly.

we now have 5 theories explaining how incandescents can outlast methuselah: 1) UPS; 2) thermister; 3) diode; 4) older & thicker; 5) it's an organic bulb, screw it into a high place.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> carve i take it your message No. 48 just upthread is not describing how a UPS works but instead it's describing how a thermister or a diode works in conjunction with a tungsten filament?
> 
> then there's JAG's theory that old light bulbs have thicker filaments so they don't burn out so quickly.
> 
> we now have 5 theories explaining how incandescents can outlast methuselah: 1) UPS; 2) thermister; 3) diode; 4) older & thicker; 5) it's an organic bulb, screw it into a high place.


That's what happens when there are more questions than answers..LOL! 

*Do you want me to explain the bulb longevity theory further..haven't you had enough of my techno-babble?*:biggrin:

Ok on to the UPS. 

In my younger days (when I was a YOUNG COOT) working for Telesat, we had a huge UPS system to provide constant power voltage 
to the earth antenna drive motors during satellite acquisition/tracking stage..(ok this is going to be a l-on-g winded explanation.so you may want to do something else while I collect my thoughts here).

Normally because of huge DC current requirements, the 48 volt battery plant supplied the hundred of amps required to move a several ton antenna, charged by silicon controlled rectifier power plant that was triggered from the phase angles of the AC sine wave. This was done by a power plant on floating batteries..(get into that later..or maybe not?)

Our system used a motor-generator.. The motor was operated from the grid A/C which was susceptible to blackouts. The motor and generator were coupled on the same shaft and turned at the same RPM..the generator operated the DC tracking motors on the antennae... via the 48 volt backup battery. If a power blackout was detected, the power panel electronic switches would switch the load (DC motors) from the rectified grid/battery plant to the UPS (motor -generator) in a micro second..and the *load was switched over as the phase angles synchronized*
in milli-seconds (faster than a blink of an eye) the power to the transmitters and tracking was UNINTERRUPTED...hence the name "UNINTERRUPTED POWER SUPPLY"...

*now back to the methusalah filament glowing for 113 years..apparently*.or so it is claimed. 

It's hard to go that far back to 1901, to determine if that particular light bulb had a UPS supply or not.
.but lets say that they had an electro-mechanical arrangement, such as the large scale UPS that I just mentioned
....are you still with me..Humble? .. Wake up! Test will follow..LOL!

Ok as far as light bulbs and computers, there are two types of UPS systems that are affordable
550Va (300 watts) watt standby UPS
and 
550Va (300 watts CONTINUOUS UPS 
These are both inverter types...the computer (or light bulb) runs off the inverter continuously.

diagram of a UPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5RKBWhEUAU

Rather than me explain in a long winded language..here is a Youtube tutorial on some old INTERNAL Battery operated UPS inverters.
How to recycle old UPS that the internal battery is no longer usable:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJzv5USS8Yw

*Of course the weak point in any UPS system is the lead acid battery which as a finite life...certainly not 113 years!*

Most secondary cell battery chemistry gets used up in less than 10 years, space program batteries excepted.
One the battery chemistry gets depleted, it will no longer store a charge and any AC power interruption to the UPS WILL RESULT in a power interruption to the load...
be it a computer,,or a light bulb. 

Call -1 800 (How am I doing?)..and still waiting for that pie! :biggrin:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

fascinating! you get a yummy fresh peach shortcake with whipped cream for that.

carve i do like you better when you are reminiscing about canadian electronics than when you are ranting on about evil doctors or putting some innocent young girl in prison.

on that note, perhaps you might consider telling us stories about the early days of Anik I? & be careful what you write, it might turn out to be valuable archive material.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> fascinating! you get a yummy fresh peach shortcake with whipped cream for that.
> 
> carve i do like you better when you are reminiscing about canadian electronics than when you are ranting on about evil doctors or putting some innocent young girl in prison.
> 
> on that note, perhaps you might consider telling us stories about the early days of Anik I? & be careful what you write, it might turn out to be valuable archive material.


Well as i have all ready told you Humble..I am a Jekyll and Mr, Hyde dual personality...I can be sweet mild mannered Dr, Jekyll in one minute then that evil person.."Mr Hyde"..and you
have already seen that side of me...:biggrin: Even when I take on the pseudo personality of "Mr, Hyde"..I still loves yas all....at heart..even though I have never met any of you personally...




Yes, my good 'ole' days...I can be considered a gold mine of store information in that hard disk sitting on top of my shoulders..Humble...now let me go back in time (Did you ever see that
movie with Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour ('SOMWHERE IN TIME?) IF NOT, GET THE MOVIE..THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVOURITES from my "DR JEKYLL" SIDE..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvUPfEx8--c

going back...going WAY back...SOMEWHERE IN TIME.... to my high school days...I still remember dancing in the gym to the sounds of Santo & Johnny..."Sleepwalk'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwfqsjimRM


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok.. back to the quest to get my lightbulb into the Guiness World book of Records..as the longest burning lightbulb ever.

Everyone knows that most tungsten filament bulbs are typically designed around a lifetime of 2,000 hours (long life variety) or less when you could buy those no-name bargain basement types, that would last 500 hours (if you were lucky and not slam the door next to one that was lit). 



> During ordinary operation, the tungsten of the filament evaporates; hotter, more-efficient filaments evaporate faster. Because of this, the lifetime of a filament lamp is a trade-off between efficiency and longevity. The trade-off is typically set to provide a lifetime of several hundred to 2,000 hours for lamps used for general illumination.


2000 hrs if burining continuously is 83.3 days or approximately 3 months. If you turned them on and off during the daytime like most people do..thats about 250 days...considering how cheap they were towards the end of manufacture...Almost a bargain.except for power consumption.

The other problem with tungsten filaments is that the tungsten has to run at very high temperatures to produce that white light which results in 90% of the power consumed is released in the form of heat, and 10% is used in producing white visible light. Not very efficient to say the least.

Now if modern science could improve on that lightbulb that Edison invented in 1879...almost 135 years ago..and YOU found a way to make it last indefinitely...or over 100 years of continuous burning,Your name could also be in the Guiness book of Records.

So considering that lightbulbs are very basic and don't really require much upkeep..it shouldn't be that hard really..shouldn't it.

*What does one need to set up that longevity experiment..that could very well outlast you?*

* FACTUM: Some facts that we know:*
1. The tungsten runs very hot and that leads to filament depletion in spots creating hot spots and weaknesses in the supported coil of tungsten wire filament.
2. The heating (expansion) and cooling (contraction) effect by having the light bulb turned on and off shortens the lifespan.
3. Ambient temperature...hot rooms or conversely very cold bulb in the winter months.leads to faster mortality turning it on an off... bulbs prefer a constant temperature environment
4. Supply, fluctuating line voltage or over voltage leads to a much faster depletion of the tungsten filament and earlier mortality than it's average expected lifetime

These are the main factors that affect the useful lifetime of a lightbulb

1.find better ways of creating the white light without reducing longevity...
get the filament temperature down? How? AC voltages at 115-120 volts 60Hz produce a constant duty cycle heating effect..each half of the sine wave rises from the zero line to peak in a continous cycle and the RMS (Root mean square) component at .707% of the peak voltage in the positive excursion and the same in the negative excursion of the rotating generator produces..1.41 average RMS. heating effect on the filament
In electrical engineering ..one complete rotation of the generator is 360 degrees broken down into sectors and quadrants..8 sectors at 45 degrees and 4 quadrants...

*So now...how to address each one and turn the negative into a positive? *
First of all lets examine math Trigonometry which AC theory is based on..and what makes generators gen..and light bulbs work. 
There principle components in angular rotation is : SINE, COSINE and TANGENT..you may remember from the angles you discusses in high school trig classes...or where
you asleep most of the time?
S; C; and T 
A*ll three of them are positive in Quadrant I*
Sine only is positive in Quadrant II
Tangent only is positive in Quadrant III
Cosine only is positive in Quadrant IV
East rule of thumb to remember this is: All Students Take Chemistry
*All* *S*tudents *T*ake *C*alculus
or
All Silly Tom Cats
or
Add Sugar To Coffee

And since our AC generator rotates 360 degrees for one complete revolution to produce the changing sinusoidal waveform called ALTERNATING CURRENT (AC), 
It follows that the magnitude in radians of one complete revolution (360 degrees) is the length of the entire circumference divided by the radius, or 2πr /r, or 2π. Thus 2π radians is equal to 360 degrees, meaning that one radian is equal to 180/π degrees.

Ok simple enough..now we know that AC has fluctuating waveforms and a frequency of 60HZ...the voltages are stepped up for transmission across transmission lines and distribution substations and reduced at the transformer outside your house to TWO PHASED)power is 180 degrees apart at the power panel..if the two out of phase voltages {of 115-120 volt nominal } is combined, we have 230-240 volts applied across that stove or dryer element.

which brings us to "pi" or "Pie"...and that reminds me...where is my pie..Humble..I'm getting hungry! 

So I have just explained what happens when that tungsten filament gets exposed to 120 volt line voltages. How can we make the bulb last longer?...
reduce it's applied voltage or change the duty cycle of the applied power

Reducing the applied voltage by 10% will allow the life of the bulb to be extended by a larger factor..but that factor is unknown as it is an unknown quantity.

NEXT: How to reduce hot spots/thermal breakdown in the filament to extend the lifetime of our GUINNESS WORLD BOOK..LONGEST BURNING BULB.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

carve i have a nose for news & i'm good at sniffing out the backside of stories.

what i'm sensing in your case is that your entire medical team is crowding you to move outta the house. I wonder if the ontario ministry of health is sending day care workers to your home to help you get a shower, get dressed, prepare meals, change the bed linen, do the laundry, vacuum the floor? 

i ask because if that is what the public health service is paying for, it absolutely cannot afford to keep this up. It has to move you into a shared facility where the proper care modalities will be conveniently available. This will cost less per patient, to the gummint health service that is paying for it.

my nose is telling me that your entire medical team has made this decision as a group, but the problem they are now facing is that your Mr. Hyde side is being noisy & aggressive & self-pitying & resistant. Mr. Hyde, in fact, fights like a banshee. Mr. Hyde is angry & suspicious. Mr. Hyde goes into a panic every time the doctors start whispering It's Time To Move.

carverman surely your Dr. Jekyll side must be quietly telling you that your days in a 2-storey house - with a wheelchair on the main floor & another wheelchair upstairs at the top of the stair elevator - these days are numbered? it's a fact that Dr. Jekyl could be using his time, right now, to research all the shared accommodation/care choices that are available. The choices don't necessarily have to be in the Ottawa area.

what about a senior facility close to a community centre that teaches woodworking? or home repairs? carve you are one who would have so much to offer! your knowledge of so many art skills & home repair skills is beyond astounding, it's one in a million! i know you said you can no longer lift or operate the heavy tools, but there you would see your designs and your ideas turning into reality in the hands of students who would do the heavy lifting.

carverman it's my hope that you'll start planning realistically for the next stage in your life. Won't you please switch on Dr. Jekyll & try this. I'd bake you a wild blackberry pie with a sugary crust & heaping ice cream on the side.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> carve i have a nose for news & i'm good at sniffing out the backside of stories.
> 
> what i'm sensing in your case is that your entire medical team is crowding you to move outta the house. I wonder if the ontario ministry of health is sending day care workers to your home to help you get a shower, get dressed, prepare meals, change the bed linen, do the laundry, vacuum the floor?


No they are not. last July (2013) I had a bad myositis attack and my right leg was so sore, I had to be on morpine pills. I call CCAC (Community Care Access Centre) and they took down all my
information and promised they would get back to me ASAP...I WAS STRUGGLING LIVING ON MY OWN..approximately 30 days later they call me back and ask me if I still needed their help.
I replied.."why yes..I needed your help 30 days ago..I recovered enough by now to look after myself..dressing (which is difficult now to pull on a pair of pants) shower etc.
They gave me the direct number of their supervisor in Toronto to call..in case I needed their help in the future...we shall see if they are any more responsive when the time comes.
Right now, I hire a cleaning lady once a week to clean the house but still manage to make my meals and look after myself from my wheelchair upstairs...I have two wheelchairs now..
one strictly to get around the upstairs of my house (2 bedrooms+ living+dining + kitchen + disabled bath with shower stall) and I have stair chairs installed to get to my 2 lower
bedrooms (used to be my stainglass/carving/cabinet making workshops) and the laundry/furnace room complete with table saw, band saw, router table, belt sander, drill press. power carvers, and a host of other hand tools. My second wheelchair (used for Para, doctor/dentist and visiting my friend in her house, along with my heavy duty scooter is in the downstairs attached garage..and I have a lovely back yard with a huge maple tree, scooter access automatic opening gate.interlock patio and lots of bushes and flowers....and a cat that has lived with me for a few years...she likes my back yard too.and I watch and am entertained by the bluejays as I throw peanuts at them.

Why would I want to sell my place now..and move into an apartment, waiting to die...in my wheelchair? 



> i ask because if that is what the public health service is paying for, it absolutely cannot afford to keep this up. It has to move you into a shared facility where the proper care modalities will be conveniently available. This will cost less per patient, to the gummint health service that is paying for it.


Well maybe so..but I am a creative person..the last thing I want now at this stage of my life is to get into "shared accomodation" and put up with their kind of patient care...my friend's
mother (albeit a lot older than me moved into a chronic care facility...they OVERMEDICATED HER WITH MORPHINE and stopped her heart, which was weak already...I don't want them doing that to me!



> my nose is telling me that your entire medical team has made this decision as a group, but the problem they are now facing is that your Mr. Hyde side is being noisy & aggressive & self-pitying & resistant. Mr. Hyde, in fact, fights like a banshee. Mr. Hyde is angry & suspicious. Mr. Hyde goes into a panic every time the doctors start whispering It's Time To Move.


Mr Hyde (my sixth sense) has always been on my side..no reason to abandon him now..NO I do not trust doctors any more..most of them are self serving QUACKS and some are on
a secret " take"..as they say..


> carverman surely your Dr. Jekyll side must be quietly telling you that your days in a 2-storey house - with a wheelchair on the main floor & another wheelchair upstairs at the top of the stair elevator - these days are numbered? it's a fact that Dr. Jekyl could be using his time, right now, to research all the shared accommodation/care choices that are available. The choices don't necessarily have to be in the Ottawa area.


Well one thing for sure Humble..my days are numbered anyway..if I can chose to live the rest of my remaining life THE WAY I WANT TO..why should I deny myself that priviledge?



> what about a senior facility close to a community centre that teaches woodworking? or home repairs? carve you are one who would have so much to offer! your knowledge of so many art skills & home repair skills is beyond astounding, it's one in a million! i know you said you can no longer lift or operate the heavy tools, but there you would see your designs and your ideas turning into reality in the hands of students who would do the heavy lifting.


Nice idea Humble..but this is not going to happen in my lifetime. I did teach carving and airbrushing techniques to a bunch of fellow carvers at the Ottawa Carving Club, that I used to belong to..
haven't been with them since 2010..legs too weak to drive at night to attend the monthly meetings..and since June 2012 I do not have a vehicle anymore..I'm too dangerous as I don't
have enough strength in my right leg to press down on a brake, let alone cope with road emergency..I can't even lift my leg high enough to get into a vehicle anymore...i'm done..
its only a matter of time now..there is no solutions and no cure. 



> carverman it's my hope that you'll start planning realistically for the next stage in your life. Won't you please switch on Dr. Jekyll & try this. I'd bake you a wild blackberry pie with a sugary crust & heaping ice cream on the side.


Ummmm Blackberry pie with sugary crust and a heaping helping of vanilla ice cream ..that is enough to melt this "old coot's" heart...thank you dear Humble. each:


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

oh, good! what you are describing isn't a 2-storey house - which would normally have a basement that would make a 3rd level.

what you're describing is a bungalow with everything on one floor including kitchen & bathroom? then there is a lower level with furnace & laundry room, this is normally referred to as a basement?

carve it makes a difference to my point of view if you're living in a bungalow with full kitchen, bathroom & sleeping facilities all on one floor. This would be so much easier for you to manage, it would be much better arrangement imho.

if that's the case, you deserve a freshly-baked blackberry pie pronto.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> oh, good! what you are describing isn't a 2-storey house - which would normally have a basement that would make a 3rd level.
> 
> what you're describing is a bungalow with everything on one floor including kitchen & bathroom? then there is a lower level with furnace & laundry room, this is normally referred to as a basement?


 close but NO Cigar Humble...it is a side split (sometimes referred to as a ranch). The garage is built in..and I can go from my wheelchair/scooter right from my garage onto a stair chair that goes up 6 steps to a main entrance landing..where it has a double door. and... if I turn around 180 degrees, I take another stair chair up 6 steps to the main floor living space..yes it can be considered a "raised bungalow". 



> carve it makes a difference to my point of view if you're living in a bungalow with full kitchen, bathroom & sleeping facilities all on one floor. This would be so much easier for you to manage, it would be much better arrangement imho.


Humble, at this stage, I can still manage and take care of myself..I have engineered the bathroom/shower/toilet and kitchen to suit me in my wheelchair. I have walkers and wheelchairs.
I have a large scooter to go into Loblaws and do my grocery shopping. I can still stand somewhat (although not too long because of the constant pain) to saw a piece of wood for a project
or as I did yesterday..replace the leaking outdoor tap and solder it..saving myself hundreds of dollars in the process (being frugal) by not calling a plumber or handyman..I just don't trust
their solder jobs..I need to do it myself...and at this stage of my life .. as long as I can handle my own toilet routine..I am self sufficient ..I don't need anyone telling me how I should run
my life....<wink>..get it? 


> if that's the case, you deserve a freshly-baked blackberry pie pronto.


Thanks, but I'm sure you have more important things to do than bake virtual berry pies on a virtual medium using a virtual identity....it's a virtual world.

Speaking of virtual reality these days; 
I can even do my own banking via a virtual bank..all I need to deal with now..is the frustrating "bots" they hire at the virtual bank that keep repeating things I already heard from
them and don't need to hear again...LOL!


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> ...
> 
> Speaking of virtual reality these days;
> I can even do my own banking via a virtual bank..all I need to deal with now..is the frustrating "bots" they hire at the virtual bank that keep repeating things I already heard from them and don't need to hear again...LOL!


 ... are you talking about online ads? Let me know when you find the solution as I'm too interested in finding a block on these online banking ads. Right now, I'm just mentally ignoring them. 

Btw, do you read those online banking agreements that constantly get upgraded every 6 months? The 'fine print" changes (if not the fees changes) are driving me crazy - I mean who actually reads those fine prints? I have become to bot with the "I agree" everytime when it comes up. :biggrin:

PS:


> ... am entertained by the bluejays as I* throw peanuts at them*. ...


 ... in return, do the squirrels come and entertain you? I know they LOVE peanuts and chewing tulip bulbs when no peanuts are in sight. Comes spring, no flower, only the lone leaf of the tulip appears. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... are you talking about online ads? Let me know when you find the solution as I'm too interested in finding a block on these online banking ads.


No, I am talking about the "Bots" they hire and train to answer the 1-866 number (PCMC) and my virtual PC bank. First of all to get to a "live Bot" you have to go through a maze of "press this button for this ...or this button for that.... in the main automatic machine that answers your call initially after the 1-866 number, and you can't tell it anything until it's finished it's spiel (ie: sorry you pressed the wrong button..go back to the main menu.."...sigh!

and you get the same spiel all over again..finally you find a way out of the maze by pressing the "right button" to get you out of the first button maze and into the submenu of the second button maze..
listen to the bot's spiel for a while and decide which way to go...then all of a sudden there is a light at the end of this "press button maze" submenu to get you into ..yes you guessed it..a hidden and 3rd sub menu button field where,,you actually get to FINALLY.... speak to a "live bot".. 



> Btw, do you read those online banking agreements that constantly get upgraded every 6 months? The 'fine print" changes (if not the fees changes) are driving me crazy - I mean who actually reads those fine prints? I have become to bot with the "I agree" everytime when it comes up. :biggrin:


I either ignore them or agree..can't be bothered with reading the pages of "legalese" .its like the software agreements...pages and pages you have to scroll through and in the end..you still don't understand what
they are trying to get you to agree to..LOL! 



> PS: ... in return, do the squirrels come and entertain you? I know they LOVE peanuts and chewing tulip bulbs when no peanuts are in sight. Comes spring, no flower, only the lone leaf of the tulip appears. :biggrin:


Yes they are entertaining..but so are the BlueJays..got a fresh crop this year and they see me at the backyard picnic table throwing out peanuts and dive down to grab them before one of their siblings or a squirrel can get at them. Fun to watch when they sit in the branches bickering at each other.. (like brother and sisters do), and grab peanuts, hold them between their claws as they peck away at the peanuts out of the peanut shell..then my cat comes out to join me..and they all start squawking..Cat!..watch out for the Cat!..don't go after the peanuts! LOL..very entertaining..more fun than a barrel of monkeys.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> No, I am talking about the "Bots" they hire and train to answer the 1-866 number (PCMC) and my virtual PC bank. First of all to get to a "live Bot" you have to go through a maze of "press this button for this ...or this button for that.... in the main automatic machine that answers your call initially after the 1-866 number, and you can't tell it anything until it's finished it's spiel (ie: sorry you pressed the wrong button..go back to the main menu.."...sigh!
> 
> and you get the same spiel all over again..finally you find a way out of the maze by pressing the "right button" to get you out of the first button maze and into the submenu of the second button maze..
> listen to the bot's spiel for a while and decide which way to go...then all of a sudden there is a light at the end of this "press button maze" submenu to get you into ..yes you guessed it..a hidden and 3rd sub menu button field where,,you actually get to FINALLY.... speak to a "live bot"..
> ...


 ... ah, I see those "phone bots" where they take you in a loop too ...just had my fun this calling the "local" cinema # to find out if there was a non-3D movie showing and if so, what time slot ... first it's the press 1 for English, then pressé aussi deux pour Français, wait, wait, wait... then on level 2 - press 1 for the showing, press 2 for show-time, press 3, on and on with 6 options ... but then there is no press "zero" or "#" key or "9" for a "live" bot either nor holding 5 minutes until a live person comes worked?! So I went to their website and called their 1800-COMPLAINT # instead (and they actually took down my enquiry as a complaint as asked for my name and #) to reach a "breathing" operator ... and after all that work, found out there is only 1 time movie showing in non-3D (and is 3D that popular these days?)! If I wasn't going out to meet up with a friend for the movie, I think DVD version would come out faster! I hate phone bots ... and phone tags, waste of time.

Interesting that bluejays like peanuts ... the nuts are kind of big pellets for them? I rarely see bluejays, mostly robins in the city ... plenty of squirrels, raccoons and rats (no beavers though) in the city. :biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> Interesting that bluejays like peanuts ... the nuts are kind of big pellets for them? I rarely see bluejays, mostly robins in the city ... plenty of squirrels, raccoons and rats (no beavers though) in the city.


You know how big a peanut is basically? My guys (the bluejays) grab one then seeing more..greed gets in their little brains (good thing they don't work for the banks :biggrin and they manage
to shove a peanut down their gullet lengthwise and then grab another peanut crosswise in their beak and fly off to stash them in their secret cache.(just like squirrels do) then they come
back for more! I wanted to call one of them "Oliver" (Twist)..and just imagine they think I am the Beedle from that story..."Can I have some more?..sir?"

*Talk about banks and credit cards:upset:..I had an annoying experience yesterday with PCMC...they blocked my purchase of a new scooter at WIZMALL. *

I had paid off most of last month's charges and ready for a $2685 US charge on it for a BOOMERBUGGY V..a heavy duty scooter with odmeter and MP3 hookup (sans MP3 player of course). :biggrin:

The Ebay merchant selling it, tried to electronically enter my CC details, and they DECLINED the first time. OK..SOMETHING WENT WRONG?

Scooter merchant calls me and tells me what happened, so I call PCMC and asked what happened? because I had lots of room left on the card..I just paid off $3300!
.."oh they said, that merchant has been "redflagged" due to (possible) fraud."

Ok, I said, "I initiated the deal and the scooter is being shipped from the wholesaler in Toronto ...to Ottawa..what seems to be the problem?" 

"Oh we are not sure" the PCMC security expert exclaimed..."we just know that the merchant has been red flagged. " 

But I have made 4 phone calls with this merchant and know all about delivery etc.. 

"Your card has been compromised, we have to close it" she said. 

"What am I supposed to do now? I said. 

"Well we can give you an extension on it until Friday (Aug 1st), and then you have to call us to get the card re-issued and sent to you.,.3 banking days." 

Ok, I replied..but can you do something so that so at least this transaction goes through?"
"
Sure" she says.

I call the merchant who tries for the 3rd time..no go ..DECLINED. 

He calls me back flustered ..now.. I'm starting to get a "little hot" under the collar ...(My "Mr Hyde" personality is kicking in.
I start to let them know I am a bit annoyed with them..maybe a rant too! :biggrin:

The CC security person (3rd time phone call) ( well at least that is what she is claiming to be over the phone) .says" we have authorized this single transaction and it should go through this time."
I call the merchant back,,,he tries again for the fourth time..DECLINED!"

OK,THIS IS IT!.,,dont't upset Carverman, because if he gets hot under the collar..the rants rise to the surface when his feathers are ruffled! 

I tell the merchant..forget it (after 4 attempts) and each time decline...I will transfer the money from my TFSA to my bank acct and pay it by PAYPAL.

He agrees to do that..and sends me an invoice and if I agree to the amount, click on the PayPal "Pay" button...which I do and finally he
sees my charge come through......but wait!..what is this? 

The charge was put on my PCMC by PAYPAL that is supposed to have been 'COMPRIMISED" according to PCMC security and no longer valid..hmmmmmm?

This morning I sent them an email via "talktous" and *told them not to bother to send me a replacement card..if I can't trust their word..what good is their MC.*

Going with a Capital One Platinum..it's coming in the mail in a few days.

6


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

carverman said:


> Yes they are entertaining..but so are the BlueJays..got a fresh crop this year and they see me at the backyard picnic table throwing out peanuts and dive down to grab them before one of their siblings or a squirrel can get at them.


Speaking of entertainment, we were joined by one of the locals recently for drinks and appetizers.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> You know how big a peanut is basically? My guys (the bluejays) grab one then seeing more..greed gets in their little brains (good thing they don't work for the banks :biggrin and they manage to shove a peanut down their gullet lengthwise and then grab another peanut crosswise in their beak and fly off to stash them in their secret cache.(just like squirrels do) then they come back for more! I wanted to call one of them "Oliver" (Twist)..and just imagine they think I am the Beedle from that story..."*Can I have some more?..sir?"*
> 
> *Talk about banks and credit cards:upset:..I had an annoying experience yesterday with PCMC...they blocked my purchase of a new scooter at WIZMALL. *
> 
> ...


 ... so the Ottawa bluejays in your yard are a little greedy bunch ... :biggrin: 

Something sounds screwy with your PCMC card ... I guess they lost you as as customer now. 

It seems this credit card "compromising" business is becoming more frequent. A colleague of mine's just had her cc (TD though) compromised last week also - she got a called from the banking/cc division that someone booked several flights on her card and called her to verify if that was the case and it wasn't. Aren't cc "supposedly" to be more secured now with these little built-in "chips"? 

I think the "debit cards" with chips built-in are the stoopidest idea that the bank can come up with and waste $$$ on though.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... so the Ottawa bluejays in your yard are a little greedy bunch ... :biggrin:
> 
> Something sounds screwy with your PCMC card ... I guess they lost you as as customer now.


Yes, but a new twist in this whole transaction thing has come up...the seller (100% satisfaction rating on Ebay) is claiming that he never received the $2685 US from PayPal, even though Paypal has sent me a confirmation that the funds were transferred to his business acct. 

Scam? Not sure yet..he is saying that his bank told him that my bank told him that my bank account is empty..which is not true..I moved $3000 from my TFSA today to cover the payment from PayPal, and I thought they were going to take it out of my checking acct.

So far the money is still there and Paypal is telling me that they used my PCMC to get the funds to pay WIZMall.com electronic processor. 

I'm waiting until tomorrow as sometimes it takes few hours for the funds to show up in peoples bank accounts and for the the funds for the transaction to be removed by PayPal from my checking acct.

If there is still a dispute after 48 hrs, I will have to put in a request Paypal to recover my funds (somehow) from the merchant. 

He is telling me that he doesn't like Paypal ...he doesn't trust them...and I should wire the money to him...I never do that since it sets you up for a possible scam..
so far I'm not sure where this is going.



> It seems this credit card "compromising" business is becoming more frequent. A colleague of mine's just had her cc (TD though) compromised last week also - she got a called from the banking/cc division that someone booked several flights on her card and called her to verify if that was the case and it wasn't. Aren't cc "supposedly" to be more secured now with these little built-in "chips"?


No they are not any more secure than in the past. Those RFI chips allow for faster payment at POS terminals...anybody with a RFI scanner in close proximity to the POS during your CC transaction* COULD pickup your CC details.*..this was shown on CBC a few months ago..they are not 100% secure.




> I think the "debit cards" with chips built-in are the stoopidest idea that the bank can come up with and waste $$$ on though.


*Same thing with the debit cards that have the RFI chip on them...while it makes it easier for you to tap and go..without entering a 4 digit pin..ANY THIEF WITH A RFI CHIP reader in close proximity* say up to 50 ft away.. COULD read your BANK ACCT NUMBER!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok..we got a bit OT here..back to the bright bulbs again..the quest for the "Holy Grail"..
..and no..it's not a $750K 1959 Gibson Les Paul, that most serious guitar players would sell their mothers (and maybe even their first borns) for...:biggrin: 
It's that tone......and they ain't making them any more..at least not from 1959...

*so Humble continuing on..the original topic..what makes "certain rare light bulbs" (or at least claim about them)..last so long? 
Do you want me to explain the bulb longevity theory further..haven't you had enough of my techno-babble?*

It then because of "DIVINE INTERVENTIONS" and an earthquake free zone? 

Is it the belief that perpetual light (bulbs) like perpetual motion does exist?...(especially on planet X..the one beyond PLUTO..and undiscovered but astronomy has detected
anomalies in Pluto's orbit..which is a bit strange anyway).

let's re-iterate again what conditions may be necessary and some known facts : 

1. The tungsten runs very hot and that leads to filament depletion in spots creating hot spots and weaknesses in the supported coil of tungsten wire filament.
There are some experiments to alleviate that and a some commercially viable solutions for any tungsten bulbs being manufactured now.


*2. The heating (expansion) and cooling (contraction) effect by having the light bulb turned on and off shortens the lifespan.*
This is one factor that shortens the life of most tungsten bulbs..and causes the bulb to burn out as they say.
Solution: Using a UPS and regulated DC supply and having the bulb burn continuous (as demonstrated in the Guiness book of Records claim) is one way. 
With the bulb operating at constant filament temperature, only the evaporation of the composite tungsten material comes into the equation. 

*
3. Ambient temperature...hot rooms or conversely very cold bulb in the winter months.leads to faster mortality turning it on an off... bulbs prefer a constant temperature environment*
Ambient temperature..or conversely..thermal shock will kill a lightbulb long before it's rated expiry date. 
Having the bulb cooled by a fan in summer or preheated filaments will lengthen its expected life.


*4. Supply, fluctuating line voltage or over voltage leads to a much faster depletion of the tungsten filament and earlier mortality than it's average expected lifetime
*
This is yet another "killer" of light bulbs..fluctuating line voltages.especially if the line voltage goes above the nominal voltage rating of the bulb. A 10% over voltage applied to
the bulb for a few hours will shorten it's expected life time greatly. Conversely a 10% reduction in line voltage will increase the lifetime tremendously. 
A constant current and constant voltage, like a DC power supply or a UPS will stretch the lifetime of the bulb by thousands of hours.

and finally...No mechanical shock or vibration will prolong the life especially when burning. 

But just like there is no real perpetual motion machine that will go on indefinitely... and no free lunch..:sorrow:
.that long life bulb WILL EVENTUALLY burn out..unless replaced


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

actually carve i enjoy reading your explanations so much! you are a marvellous teacher & explainer - although imho you do better with electrical engineering than with everyday news. There really should be a way that transportation can be found that would take you to teach a woodworking or home repairs how-to workshop now & then.

perhaps a technical college that teaches trade skills? in montreal, these are beginning to have increased enrolment now, as more young people see the light & realize that their hands plus brains can earn a better living than just brains alone, sitting at a desk job.

in any event, precious knowledge such as yours should be shared imho. A forum like this isn't quite good enough, it lacks the 3rd dimension, doesn't have the manual skills opportunity. A workshop or studio setting would be ideal.

re your house: i recently visited a house near ottawa that's built as you describe. It's on the west bank of the ottawa river. The front door offers a vestibule & landing zone which has 6 steps up to the main floor, where kitchen, dining, living, several bedrooms & 2 bathrooms are located.

another 6 steps lead down to the lower level, in their case i imagine the furnace room is there (didn't see) plus there's a large family room looking out over a pretty garden that slopes down to their dock on the river.

an exceptionally enterprising & resourceful person like yourself could manage to live on the upper level of such a house, with the aid of the stair elevators that you've installed. It would be challenging, so kudos to you for managing. I take it you've figured out how to escape if 1) a power blackout occurs & 2) meanwhile a fire breaks out in the homestead?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> actually carve i enjoy reading your explanations so much! you are a marvellous teacher & explainer - although imho you do better with electrical engineering than with everyday news. There really should be a way that transportation can be found that would take you to *teach a woodworking or home repairs how-to workshop now & then.*


naw..I hate teaching..I'm better at learning and explaining. What would I teach......"Power wheelchair/scooter repair 101"?



> perhaps a technical college that teaches trade skills? in montreal, these are beginning to have increased enrolment now, as more *young people see the light* & realize that their hands plus brains can earn a better living than just brains alone, sitting at a desk job.


You crack me up Humble.."see the light"..most of them don't come out of their parent's basements these days..playing video games all day long, drinking coke and eating Doritos..



> in any event, *precious knowledge such as yours* should be shared imho. A forum like this isn't quite good enough, it lacks the 3rd dimension, doesn't have the manual skills opportunity. A workshop or studio setting would be ideal.


Precious? You're cracking me up again Humble...you can learn just about ANYTHING these days on the internet or Youtube...as a matter of fact..that is where we are right now. :biggrin:



> re your house: i recently visited a house near ottawa that's built as you describe. It's on the west bank of the ottawa river. The front door offers a vestibule & landing zone which has 6 steps up to the main floor, where kitchen, dining, living, several bedrooms & 2 bathrooms are located.


Two bathrooms you say?..must be a luxury version of my "working class neighborhood" house. 



> another 6 steps lead down to the lower level, in their case i imagine the furnace room is there (didn't see) plus there's a large family room looking out over a pretty garden that slopes down to their dock on the river.


Yup..that sounds like my place...









> an exceptionally enterprising & resourceful person like yourself could manage to live on the upper level of such a house, with the aid of the stair elevators that you've installed. It would be challenging, so kudos to you for managing. I take it you've figured out how to escape if 1) a power blackout occurs & 2) meanwhile a fire breaks out in the homestead?


No i don't think about fires Humble..I have two extinguishers on the main floor..kitchen and one large one by the gas fireplace.
My wheelchair upstairs is battery operated, I have a 911 emergency pendant, and the stair chairs are battery operated. I have a walker at the front steps of my house outside all the time
to use to feed the birds/squirrels in the back yard. My scooter is battery operated, I have an two powerful flashlghts..one upstairs is LED and the other one a 1,000,000 CP Stanley rechargable.

I have a Carbon monoxide detector on each floor along with the required smoke detectors.....so I think I'm good. No living in those seniors fire traps for this old coot!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

:biggrin:


Beaver101 said:


> ... so the Ottawa bluejays in your yard are a little greedy bunch ...


Unlike the Toronto Bluejays..they have learned their lesson well. :biggrin:


> Something sounds screwy with your PCMC card ... I guess they lost you as as customer now.


No I'm back again as of this morning..they gave me a bribe (40,000 PC points for my troubles) and promised to look into it for me..when they get a "round tuit".
I applied for a PCMC WORLD MASTERCARD and will enjoy the rewards and benefits that comes with it..surprising enough, even though they have never made a penny
(is that still a valid expression these days?) off me in interest.{I always pay off the balance before due date)..they still value me as a customer...yeah.."I'm a somebody"..yeah!



> It seems this credit card "compromising" business is becoming more frequent.


it's just bizarre is all I can say. I've had my PCMC card compromised TWICE NOW since March.
I don't go travelling anywhere anymore and I always know whom I'm dealing with online or over the phone...
except for this WiZmall vendor on EBay...it has gone completely bad now... and he sent me an email that.. if he never has to deal with me again..it will be too soon.

Still don't know what the H*ll happened.
.My PCMC had lots of credit limit left for the $2685 charge for the mobility scooter. 

He didn't want to use Paypal at first, but agreed after grumbling about the $100 service charge he has to pay Paypal AND my PCMC to get my order.

- Paypal sends me verification that the payment was made to Wizmall

- He calls back and says that there is 'NO MONEY IN MY ACCOUNT"....WTH????

I call Paypal again and she assures me that the money was put into his account

he calls me back (pi**ed off).. and tells me that the ONLY way he will deal with me NOW is for me to WIRE him the money.. ah..no..I won't do that because of possible fraudulent vendors outside of EBay

He then sends me an *email that we can no longer do business*

This morning I call Paypal customer service to REVERSE the payment..that apparently WAS made to Wizmall..

BIZARRE..don't you think?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

> Unlike the Toronto Bluejays..they have learned their lesson well. :biggrin:


 ... no kidding, especially with training by some Seniorators nearby. :biggrin:



> No I'm back again as of this morning..they gave me a *bribe *(40,000 PC points for my troubles) and promised to look into it for me..when they get a "round tuit".
> I applied for a PCMC WORLD MASTERCARD and will enjoy the rewards and benefits that comes with it..surprising enough, even though they have never made a penny
> (is that still a valid expression these days?) off me in interest.{I always pay off the balance before due date)..they still value me as a customer...yeah.."I'm a somebody"..yeah


 ... thumbs up for the nice 'small' bribe of inconveniencing you - and tell them to haul their axxes and figure out what went wrong - not when they get "round tuit"... I look at it this way - you're doing them a favour trying to figure out what's wrong with their systems and so be paid for your time. A "smart" business firm (or good customer service) would appreciate this kind of feedback so they can take this opportunity to improve their systems/processes or plug some security gap. Don't worry about PCMC not making a penny off from you - they're making off the buck off from the merchant who then in turn tack it on back to the customer (you) via higher prices or extra fees. Losing customers (even one at a time) means losing market share also. (Btw, this "basic" business philosophy doesn't apply to Robbers, the great cable company NOT!).

It is bizarre that your PCMC card had to be "supposedly" compromised twice this month. From your description, I think the root of the "compromising" problem is with WIZMALL.com from your above posts re


> _He is telling me that he doesn't like Paypal ...he doesn't trust them...and *I should wire the money to him*._.. and _He didn't want to use Paypal at first, but agreed after grumbling about the $100 service charge he has to pay Paypal AND my PCMC to get my order._


 .. smart of you to not do that.



> ... No living in those seniors fire traps for this old coot! ...


 :encouragement:... doesn't sound like your living conditions at this point (and that of your neighbour) would put you on risk for fire.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

So it sounds like PCMC was right all along when they told you


> that merchant has been "redflagged" due to (possible) fraud."


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... no kidding, especially with training by some Seniorators nearby. :biggrin:


Beav, your quick-wittedness has no boundaries..especially when it comes to introducing some levity into the soup. :biggrin:



> ... thumbs up for the nice 'small' bribe of inconveniencing you - and tell them to haul their axxes and* figure out what went wrong* - not when they get "round tuit"... I look at it this way - you're doing them a favour trying to figure out what's wrong with their systems and so be paid for your time. A "smart" business firm (or good customer service) would appreciate this kind of feedback so they can take this opportunity to improve their systems/processes or plug some security gap. Don't worry about PCMC not making a penny off from you - they're making off the buck off from the merchant who then in turn tack it on back to the customer (you) via higher prices or extra fees. Losing customers (even one at a time) means losing market share also. (Btw, this "basic" business philosophy doesn't apply to Robbers, the great cable company NOT!).


"Robbers" they are in the news again..this overcharging roaming fees with their victims..LOL...anyway that is a different topic and we seem to be straying off topic quite a bit on this thread..
talk about bright bulbs!



> It is bizarre that your PCMC card had to be "supposedly" compromised twice this month. From your description, I think the root of the "compromising" problem is with WIZMALL.com from your above posts re .. smart of you to not do that.


This guy is unbelievable. At first he tried to sc*w" me on the conversion..and not a very good businessman at that. My first clue is that he lives in Brooklyn where most of the Jewish people live
and didn't know ANYTHING ABOUT CANADA..or where Ottawa was on the map and all he knew about Canada was that there was a hockey team in Toronto and Montreal. That was the extent
of his knowledge from my numerous telephone conversations with him leading up to the actual purchase from him. The distributor for the scooter I am (now was) interested in was in TORONTO.
His website on Ebay is based in NYC I guess. He talks a mile a minute and is very hard to understand..but basically I told him that his prices for a scooter from a distributor in Toronto
+ shipping converted to Cdn dollars was WAY TOO HIGH.

I told him no way that I should pay the conversion since the scooter is (while imported from China) is shipped to the Distributor in Toronto first..then I guess to his WIZMALL store in NYC..and I would have to pay conversion + shipping + customs clearance on it converted to Cdn dollars again . There is no sales tax on MOBILITY SCOOTERS or WHEELCHAIRS in ONTARIO.

My PCMC card before I gave him the MC card number over the phone . After I reneged on the high cost of conversion to Cdn funds, he agreed to drop his US price from $2899 down
to $2685 (including shipping out of Toronto to Ottawa (on the Canadian side of the border) . he told me that in order to save on the high fees he would have to pay EBay, he was
willing to drop the price if we could negotiate a deal outside of EBay..that kind of raised a red flag with me.but because of the lower price, I decided that this once to go ahead
against my better judgement ONLY BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO BE SHIPPED OUT OF TORONTO.

WHEN he tried to use my PCMC number with my verbal authorization of course..I was on the phone with him during that time. PCMC DECLINED and he mumbled something about "fraud"..didn't understand him. He tried again..again PCMC declined. So at that point I dropped off with him and called PCMC security to see what was going on..they advised me that my card had 
been "comprimised" and possible "fraud" but no further details from them at that time.
Wanting to complete the sale, I asked them if that single charge could somehow be put on my MC before they shut it down. They agreed to extend the card to today.
I called him back and he tried the 3rd time..again PCMC declined. I called PCMC back again and they assured me that the charge will go through.
He tried the 4th time with me on the phone..Again PCMC declined.

I suggested to try Paypal, since I have an account with them for situations with merchants I don't know..he was hesitant at first but finally agreed. He sent me a an invoice which looked
legit enough with company log on it with his name, email and Brooklyn N Y C Zipcode and his phone number with a PayPal acceptance "button" on it.
I paid him through Paypal on that invoice and it seemed to go through.
I received an email from PayPal that the $2685 US was taken from my PCMC CC and with currency conversion to $3,017.24 CDN.
The transaction was paid to WizMall.com and the *status was completed.*
When I logged into my Paypal account it showed:
Jul31, 2014 Bill from WizMallcom Paid Details $2,685.00 USD
Jul31 2014 Payment to WizMall.com Completed Details - $2,685.00 USD
*
He sent me an email and claims he never got the money from me.."no money in your bank account"*

So here in chronological sequence is the exchange of emails TODAY.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

more on emails exchanged from the deal gone sour from (above )

#1


> I am forwarding the email from Paypal that your invoice has been paid from my President's
> Choice Mastercard.
> If you feel there are still some unresolved issues then your or your processor needs to call
> Paypal to straighten it out. I have done my part..
> ...


#2


> Dan
> I will try to resolve this tomorrow.
> But PayPayl got around your bank's block on your card.
> I will have my payment processor look into this issue.
> ...


#3


> David,
> 
> Lets not panic here. I know that paypal transactions do not show up in my bank account anywhere from 24 to 48 hrs. It is NOT instanteous with
> Paypal, since they are what you call the "middleman" between bank accounts..mine and yours.
> ...


#4


> You need to do some investigation on why my Mastercard security declined due to "possible fraud". The $2,914.16 IS THE CANADIAN CONVERSION FROM
> $2685 us.
> My Mastercard is at $7500 Canadian, and I only have $1069 in current charges on it.so the credit limit IS NOT THE REASON FOR YOU TO BE DECLINED
> 4 times yesterday.
> ...


#5


> If forgot to mention in the previous email David,
> My Mastercard was NOT BLOCKED..it was considered comprimised..and up until your attempted transaction (Wizmall.com) it accepted all charges.
> When I phoned my MC help line last night )TWICE) they did indicate that there was some evidence to them of a "possible fraud"..not sure what that
> means. When I specifically asked them to allow your transaction to go through for $2685 US, they told me they would extend my current MC number
> ...


#6


> copy and reply
> *P.S.
> Wiring funds from your bank is the best guarantee against fraud, but you don't want to do that.
> That's a red flag.
> ...


#7


> My suggested Dan, is to contact PayPal and request they refund the money to you.
> If I ship you the item, and there is fraud, then I lose the item and the person to whom the card rightfully belongs can issue a chargeback.
> I am the person at risk here.
> Lets' cancel the transaction.


#8


> David; As you wish.
> 
> I have contacted PAYpal to start proceedings to refund my money.
> Sorry the transaction didn't work out between us.


#9


> Good. I want no part of you.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

> Beav, your quick-wittedness has no boundaries..especially when it comes to introducing some levity into the soup. :biggrin:


 ... that's because you already spiced the soup. :biggrin: :biggrin: 

Okay, in all seriousness ... what a hassle in dealing with this "WIZ"MALL outfit ... I think parting way on this transaction and getting your money back is the best solution. Aren't there any other merchants in "Canada" that sell the type of mobility scooter you're looking for at a comparable price .... I mean after the exchange, conversion fees, and (sales tax?) cross border duty, your saving might not be a whole lot. Between US$2,685 and C$3,017.24 - that's already account for $332 more. As you mentioned the shipment is out from "Toronto", the warehouse (or direct outlet) should be in Toronto also. How about contacting the scooter's manufacturer directly (via email) to ask them who distributes their product in Canada? Just a suggestion from the top of my head at the moment.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

^^ You both crack me up. What a humourless forum it would be without you!

*Beav:* yup, matinée only for the non-3D eyes; there are about 12% of us worldwide, so we're special, don't ya know?! each:

*Nemo:* I meant you're with the majority, so you would not attract attention [meant it in a supportive way].


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... that's because you already spiced the soup. :biggrin: :biggrin:
> 
> As you mentioned the shipment is out from "Toronto", the warehouse (or direct outlet) should be in Toronto also. How about contacting the scooter's manufacturer directly (via email) to ask them who distributes their product in Canada? Just a suggestion from the top of my head at the moment.


Yes there are at least 2 or 3 in Ontario, this side of Toronto too that sell the Boomerbuggy V. What a name..eh..we go from a Babybuggy to a Boomerbuggy , and then 
the final exit in a..nice Black Cadillac with curtains... no less..ah nothing but the best for Ole Carve.:biggrin:

I originally wanted to be buried in the family plot in Oakville that has my name already on the headstone..but changed my mind in the last 4 years for cremation..and that would be shame to burn up a beautiful guitar..even if I could play some blues riffs on it for:
St. Peter?
or 
Beezlebub...

have you seen "Crossroads" with Ralph Macchio..where he has ambitions to become a blues superstar and is instructed by "the man in black" to show his chops 
in a contest of " cutting heads" with the Devils own guitarist..played by Steve Vai? Great movie!


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Yes there are at least 2 or 3 in Ontario, this side of Toronto too that sell the Boomerbuggy V. What a name..eh..we go from a Babybuggy to a Boomerbuggy , and then
> the final exit in a..nice Black Cadillac with curtains... no less..ah nothing but the best for Ole Carve.:biggrin:
> 
> I originally wanted to be buried in the family plot in Oakville that has my name already on the headstone..but changed my mind in the last 4 years for cremation..and that would be shame to burn up a beautiful guitar..even if I could play some blues riffs on it for:
> ...


 .... that 2 or 3 don't happen to have an address of xxx St. Regis Cres. S, Toronto because I just recalled this outfit from a friend of a doofus-friend who "used" to work there (not anymore long story) - so not endorsing the outfit.

Boomerbuggy sounds cute but what does the "V." stand for? Actually, you need a souped-up BoomerHoggy version - or does it comes with turbo-speed? Ride this before the Caddy - no rush there. :biggrin:

Nope, haven't seen CrossRoads, I don't like horror movies, especially where there the word Devil is mentioned, real or not ... give me nightmares and I need all the beauty-sleep I can get. :biggrin:


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto.gal said:


> ^^ You both crack me up. What a humourless forum it would be without you!
> 
> *Beav:* yup, matinée only for the non-3D eyes; there are about 12% of us worldwide, so we're special, don't ya know?! each:
> 
> *Nemo:* I meant you're with the majority, so you would not attract attention [meant it in a supportive way].


 ... :encouragement: ... oh, I can't wait for the 1-D "movie". :biggrin:

Oh, Nemo is pretty special too because how many forum members have the name Nemo in its moniker? ... counting my fingers ..= 1 and what's the membership here?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

:


Beaver101 said:


> .... that 2 or 3 don't happen to have an address of xxx St. Regis Cres. S, Toronto because I just recalled this outfit from a friend of a doofus-friend who "used" to work there (not anymore long story) - so not endorsing the outfit.


There apparently are quite a few in the Toronto area and Daymak is the Toronto based wholesaler-importer.

There is one in Orangeville, Oshawa, Belleville and as I just found out one in Ottawa [derand.com} so I can buy it here in Ottawa and not have to pay anything at all for shipping, so that is another saving for mw as well.



> Boomerbuggy sounds cute but what does the "V." stand for? Actually, you need a souped-up BoomerHoggy version - or does it comes with turbo-speed? Ride this before the Caddy - no rush there.


here is what it looks like..it's a poor man's Harley Hog Trike..but on 4 wheels and electric.
Good range for those long excursions on the NCC nature trails behind my place. It has an odometer, which I need for determining how much remaining battery I have to get back home ..there are no charging stations on the nature trails, and if I run out of power..I can't push it home any more. 
I will add a couple add-ons like MP3 stereo,
chilled water dispenser, large detachable rear basket. I believe it has a range of about 40km ..lots for my needs.

http://www.daymak1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=200-BO504-200-10-04

Don't know exactly what the V stands for..maybe the Roman numeral for model Five as there is a III as well.


> Nope, haven't seen CrossRoads, I don't like horror movies, especially where there the word Devil is mentioned, real or not ... *give me nightmares and I need all the beauty-sleep I can get*.


Beauty sleep? You don't need that much beauty sleep when you are young and beautiful...save that for the golden years..right now..ya gotta party like there is no tomorrow.
Too bad you live so far away..we could get a "his and hers" Boomerbuggies and hit the trails..yee haa!!!! You only live once as they say.
During my motorcycling days..my motto was "live hard, ride fast and leave a good looking corpse behind..now that I am past that stage..I need to change it slightly..
Live each day, take it easy..and don't leave any corpse behind...take it with you! LOL!

Well I do have the "devil's cell phone number..last for digits are 9666...but I am not superstitious at all,,<Dan looking for his horseshoe, throwing salt over his shoulders and crossing himself 3 times>:biggrin:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Arrrggh ! Humble,,where's me pie ..lassie? irate:


You didn't mention "bon appetit" yet, so I figure you are still baking it somewhere's.:dejection:
Is it going to have a lattice crust? ...<carve..droolin'..like an old coot...>:biggrin:

I 'm getting bored again..what scientific or electrical or home repair shall we discuss next?

I think I'm all "burned out" on the light bulb theories...gotta move on.


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