# Driving and sightseeing in Jasper & Banff



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I've only been to Banff once, when I was a kid, and I still remember how beautiful and grand it looked. I've never been to Jasper. This summer I'm thinking of driving through Jasper National Park and Lake Louise / Banff to see the landscape and do a bit of hiking. I enjoy long distance drives and it will be a solo trip.

I'm looking for ideas on how to plan a trip like this. Big picture context: I'm starting in Vancouver BC and ending in either Edmonton or Calgary AB (either one works). I would rent a car for this, but it's a one-way rental.

One possibility is renting the car in Vancouver and driving the entire path, Vancouver - BC interior - Jasper - Banff - Calgary. Another possibility is flying from Vancouver to Edmonton and then driving Edmonton - Jasper - Banff - Calgary.

I kind of like the idea of seeing the BC interior and the towns as well, but I'm open minded. Any suggestions on which is the better drive? Safer? More scenic? Or is there some alternate route you can think of that might be better?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

How long are you planning? That makes a difference. Also, in the summer, most of the hotels will already be booked up or really expensive. 

A little more information would be helpful as there am many ways to do this. Also, you have to watch the multi province rentals.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I was thinking 3 - 5 days with max 6 hours driving each day.

I didn't realize hotels would book up that badly. For example, when I use Hotwire to look up a last minute hotel in Revelstoke for tomorrow night, I can get one for $117 total -- very reasonable right now. Would it be totally different in summer months?

If hotels are a big problem, maybe I should go earlier (May). Curious what others say about the hotel situation in June/July.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

I would definitely drive the whole route. Only a few routes through the mountains, tough choice on which main routes are the "best" to drive ... I've pretty much done all of them over the years. Banff to Jasper is a "for sure" and if you like a hike, though a bit touristy, do the tea house at Lake Louise. We did a horse back ride outside of Hinton along the Athabasca River a few years back that was really excellent but not really for good for beginners. 

I'll be hitting this whole area again in a few years though I'll be doing it mainly on a motorcycle.

Other than hiking/scenery, any other interests you might have in this area? Hot springs, wine tasting, etc?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> If hotels are a big problem, maybe I should go earlier (May). Curious what others say about the hotel situation in June/July.


Hotels can be an issue in the summer months and yes, some are very expensive. If you go early you might run into weather problems with higher altitude hiking and even driving for that matter.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks cainvest. I definitely like hiking and walking around, but am not looking for much more than driving and hiking. I already find that a lot of time is taken up when I stop in different places and walk around so I think this can easily fill the days that I have.

That's a good warning about hotels. And yes now I see what you're saying... driving through high elevations, I'll want warmer summer temperatures.

cainvest, when you did this before (with a car) was it your own car, or did you rent one?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If I was renting a car I'd look for a convertible or a panoramic type sunroof to see the mountains

I'll be motorbiking through again this summer. Last summer the high passes opened up just as I got there late June (highest unpaved routes) then the forest fires started shortly after I left (late July?) I expect the sweet spot between snow and smoke to be early-mid July again. I heard the snow pack is deep this year at least in PNW.

I really enjoyed a lot of the smaller towns along the way. Banff is Banff but also extremely crowded now. I heard some hiking there is like a lineup now


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Recently been in the BC Interior/Alberta area about 4 times in the past 5 years and always drove my own vehicle from Manitoba.

I'm sure there are many hiking trails at lower elevations (BC Interior) that would be ok in May but you'd have to check. As for driving, it's mainly the areas near passes that pose real issues with snowfall. I would guess a rental car from Vancouver isn't likely to have M+S rated (or better 3PMSF) tires. Usually the snow passes quickly but with only a maximum of 5 days that could get tight. In July/August the roads are fairly busy but the weather isn't likely to cause driving or hiking issues.


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## Just a Guy (Mar 27, 2012)

Banff is definitely more scenic than jasper, but the entire range is full of beautiful places.

One thing you May want to consider doing is exploring some of the ghost towns that are in the parks. Bankhead, for example, is just outside of Banff. There is an “official” historic area where you can see some building foundations and then there is the real area in the surrounding woods which is full of artifacts just abandoned and lying everywhere. Fascinating to see how an entire town was just abandoned.

There are several such towns in the parks which very few know about.


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## Gruff403 (Jan 30, 2019)

Vancouver to Calgary is the way to go. The BC interior is fun good beaches, wine tasting, festivals. Give yourself at least 5 days. Go before mid July as the forest fire smoke has be awful the last few years. Banff is very touristy but worth it. Try to book the Banff Arts Centre or stay overnight in Canmore which is just 10-15 minutes east of Banff and outside the park. We use Canmore as our base of operations to access Banff park. Lots of B&B as well in the area. St. James Irish pub in Banff is fun. Banff to Calgary is under 90 minutes. While driving from Banff to Calgary consider detour on Hwy 40 into Kananaskis and do the loop into the Upper Lake. It's about 100 Km round trip. Paved road the entire way. Have fun.


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## heyjude (May 16, 2009)

My neighbourhood is a hiker’s playground. Try to avoid wildfire season though.

https://www.tourismkelowna.com/blog/post/top-6-hikes-in-kelowna/

https://www.tourismkelowna.com/blog/post/top-5-hikes-in-west-kelowna/


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm in Banff Park right now...we are currently -7 and it snowed about 2". Should be warmer by the weekend. 

The nicest time of the year around here is late August,early September...hot days cool nights. May is iffy...the ski hills are open till May long weekend. It can snow every month of the year though, but June-Sept are pretty safe.

The hiking is endless I don't know how you will get started on the tight time schedule you are on....I'm mountain biking up here, trails are fantastic although will be pretty muddy today.

A most popular way to do the trip you described is to rent a camper van or class C rv in Vancouver & return it in Vancouver...this place is full of Europeans that fly over to do just that. One nice thing about a camper of some sort you can camp for free outside of Banff/Jasper Park....just use a rest stop or truck stop...I have made this loop many times and have a lot of nice secret camping spots that are free. There is over flow camping in the Parks if you go in busy season & don't have reservations. There are also many full service camp grounds and many rent cabins as well. Tunnel Mountain in Banff rents out yurts for example.

Theres some real deals from time to time heres one

https://www.fraserway.com/vehicle-relocation-specials

$49 for 3 nights one way

Heres another Vancouver drop off in Calgary

https://www.canadream.com/special-offers/relocation-specials/vancouver-to-calgary-1/

I agree that hotels get very expensive in season, May they will be more reasonable. Food is pricey for generally substandard fare...again cooking your own around a campfire is pretty fun.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Well for me, time is your issue. If you only have 3-5 days, then I don't see much point in driving from Vancouver, I would just drive Edmonton/Calgary. Otherwise you wouldn't really get a lot of time to walk/hike at all. Let's say for example you wanted to hike around Lake Louise or go out on the Columbia Icefield. You're going to spend at least half a day on either probably.

Take a look at the times noted on the following link. Whether you are doing them on your own or as part of a group, the times are going to be much the same and that should help you decide how much time you are going to need for anything other than just driving.
https://www.banffjaspercollection.com/brewster-sightseeing/

I think people often underestimate how much time they will actually want to spend IN a place rather than just on the road. Gruff403 for example mentions beaches, wine tasting and festivals. Are you going to take advantage of any of those for half an hour or would half a day make more sense? It's not the drive time alone that matters.
Regarding hotels, unfortunately I do agree that hotels in Banff and Jasper are often booked and frankly very poor value for money in general. Hard use and not frequent enough facelifts. 

But as you are going solo, I do have a suggestion and that is hostels. You might be surprised how nice some of them are and they often have very inexpensive meals as well as providing an opportunity to meet other travellers. You will still probably need to book though. 
https://www.hostelworld.com/findabe...T5Tin0-jD7g-XQwj3f8aAgmCEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have driven these roads countless times. We lived in Vancouver for 20 years, Calgary for 18 years. We went back and forth so many times that we could not count. The mountains are spectacular. Every time we drive through we see something different, lighting, landscape, whatever.

Even before you start consider this given that you said you have 5 days and want to drive 6 hours per day. It takes us about 10hrs to drive from Vancouver to Calgary. That is on the Coq. and the TC. Going through the Okanogan would add several hours to that-especially in the summer. So that is two days there and two days back if 6 hours of driving is a given. There is so much to see. Don't try to see it all at once. We like shoulder season-spring and fall.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

We have done a few trips to the Banff area during our child-rearing years as a family. One place I will always visit is lake O'Hara - just a short distance from Lake Louise, on the Highway. There is a campground not far from the magnificent hiking trails that surround the lake - one needs to reserve ahead of time. Access requires a bus trip up into the alpine (about a 30-35 min drive - no public access), and once there, you camp in an area surrounded by a fence (to keep wildlife out). The Group of Seven (MacDonald, Harris) painters would find vistas and landscapes that are simply stunning. Having lunch beside these lakes on a summer's day is something I would strongly recommend. Wildlife abounds - pikas, mtn-goats, a few bears perhaps - not likely. If you are a bit'o a fossil nut, like me, the Burgess Shale - one of the world's heritage sites - is just a round the corner - it too requires a guided hike to access it. It isn't often that one can visit a quarry of dead stuff in rocks that is basically a photograph album of all weird living things that "arrived" 500 million years ago!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I would say the earliest time for the Jasper to Banff Icefields Parkway run is mid-June to end of June (to minimize Banff crowds) and there will still be snowpack on the high passes mid-June. The other alternative is after mid-August through to mid-September. 

It will be necessary to book Jasper and Banff (even Canmore) hotels within the next 2 weeks or so and even then availability may be spotty. To me, the BC Interior, e.g. the Okanagan Valley from Osoyoos to Vernon is a must see for an experience different from anything else in BC and Alberta, and accommodation will be next to impossible past the end of June. Everyone comes to the Okanagan for July and August, potential for wildfire smoke after mid-July notwithstanding. The Sicamous to AB border run through Revelstoke and Golden is also a highlight. 

6 days is a tight schedule for the above given there are so many things to stop and see along the way. One must must also allow for traffic congestion on the Icefields Parkway and the TCH from the BC Interior to the AB border. There are some twinned sections on the TCH but not many AND thus long lines of traffic with trucks and slow RVs.
- Average speed from Osoyoos to Vernon may be 75 km/hr overall in summer (10 towns and cities to go through - a few mere speed bumps and a few like Kelowna congested)
- Similar for Icefields Parkway and even the TCH on heavy traffic days around weekends in particular. Add sightseeing stops and you could easily double the time required.

As mentioned by others, one could cut out half a day, or more likely close to a day, by skipping the Okanagan and instead using #5 (Coquihalla) from Hope to Kamloops but as mentioned above, missing wine/lake/orchard country entirely.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I think we can all agree that a suitable time frame to see most of what Banff to Jasper has to offer would be a "lifetime"


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eder said:


> I think we can all agree that a suitable time frame to see most of what Banff to Jasper has to offer would be a "lifetime"


Agreed. Think James will feel 'starved' at the end of such a quick trip BUT it will give him some idea to prioritize what he will want to come back to eventually, with considerably more time available.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Eder said:


> I think we can all agree that a suitable time frame to see most of what Banff to Jasper has to offer would be a "lifetime"


Yup, a lifetime for sure. 
I also really enjoy just driving through the area non-stop and taking it all in as I go by, simple is good sometimes.


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## sparky61 (Dec 6, 2014)

James; If you have the time, 2 easy, 1/2 day, spectacular hikes are Wilcox Pass and Parker's Ridge. Both a few minutes drive from the Icefields Centre.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

That would be a lot of driving to go round-trip by car in 3-5 days. Little time to stop and actually enjoy the sights.

Drive one way and fly one way.

For rental, I suggest renting in Vancouver, and dropping off in Calgary. Unless things have changed, the drop-off fee should be much less, because most tourists go the other way, and the rental company has to transport the cars back to Calgary. End up in Calgary rather then Edmonton because Edmonton is much further away from the mountains.

Drive up the Fraser Canyon from Vancouver to Jasper via TransCanada. The Fraser Canyon itself is worth seeing. You can probably find a good B&B in Kamloops. The hwy will take you through Mt. Robson Provincial Park before you hit Jasper. There are easy hikes all over Jasper. 

Take the Icefields Parkway from Jasper to Lake Louise/Banff. You should at least stop at the Visitor Center at the Athabaska Glacier, even if if you don't pay for a glacier buggy onto the glacier itself. (The glacier has retreated so far that it is now a long walk to the foot of the glacier, unless they have built a new parking lot. But likely not, because there would be no sewer & water services installed in that terminal moraine.

Banff is still scenic, but much more of a tourist trap than Jasper. I actually prefer some of the nearby undeveloped areas, because Banff is a sea of tour groups. In Lake Louise you can hike up to the Tea House. If you like a bigger challenge there is a much longer hike from there up over a col and down by another route back to the Lake (Can't recall the name of it). But it's about 5 hrs. If you prefer an easier walk in a more undeveloped area, drive to Moraine Lake and walk some of the paths next to the Lake.

Depending on your scheduling you can plan to overnight in Lake Louise, Banff, or even Canmore.

Drive to Calgary airport; drop off car; and fly back.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks everyone, lots of great ideas here. I appreciate the comments about scheduling and how much time something like this is likely to take... this is helpful.

I can skip the Okanagan on this trip. I have seen these parts before. With limited time, I think I'll try to focus on the mountains. If I'm willing to skip the BC interior, maybe starting in Edmonton and driving through to Calgary is a good idea (or reverse direction)?

example: fly to Calgary and pick up car, drive to Banff, Jasper, return at Edmonton airport, fly out. Might that be more sensible for the handful of days?

The hotel issue still confuses me. Many of you have pointed out these will sell out by the time summer (let's say July) comes. What have you folks done in your past trips? Did you really book your hotels and motels this far in advance, as in 2 months before your trip?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Also, this discussion has put me into a skiing mood. I've booked Friday off at work and going to Mt Hood (Oregon) for the last ski trip of the season. Might already be too late, but a friend tells me the snow up there was pretty good today!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Thanks everyone, lots of great ideas here. I appreciate the comments about scheduling and how much time something like this is likely to take... this is helpful.
> 
> I can skip the Okanagan on this trip. I have seen these parts before. With limited time, I think I'll try to focus on the mountains. If I'm willing to skip the BC interior, maybe starting in Edmonton and driving through to Calgary is a good idea (or reverse direction)?
> 
> ...


Skipping the Okanagan parts makes the trip much more doable in your short time span. I would see where you can get the cheapest fight in and out of between edmonton and Calgary. Keeping in mind Calgay Stampede is July 5th to 15, which will be packed with tourist in the Calgary and Banff area. 

For the hotels, it does get expensive in Banff and jasper. One year my spouse left it till June and we ended up paying $300 a night for divy motel in Jasper, and could only get to be night. Some options would be to stay in Canmore instead of Banff, and Hinton instead of jasper. The hostel in Lake Louis is FANTASTIC, and but even that gets up to $100 a night in prime season. You can also stay in camp grounds, but they are booking up too. 

I personally prefer Jasper to Banff. Jasper is much smaller, but it is less touristing. Banff in the summer can be insanely busy. I could also be bias because I goto Banff a lot and see it when it’s not busy. 

I would include the following destinations (not in any order). Keep in mind I am not a hiker and only a car camper, so I think hiking would add a lot more time. 
Day 1 fly in Calgary
Day 2 Banff and then lake Louise. stay at the hostel. 
Day 3 Colombia ice field. Goto to the ice fields, and skywalk. Must go early am, in the summer they will limit the number of cars going in. Sometimes you are stuck on the 93 for HOURS. 
Day 3 drive to jasper, stay there if you can find accommodations 
Day 4 explore jasper 
Day 5 drive to edmonton and fly out. 
Drumheller (if you wanted to make it a round trip).

I think 5 days is short, but once you decide on about what kinds of things you want to see and do, that will help with the timing.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

what a good idea to do the rockies only in 5 days - glad you caught on.

i spent 3 undergraduate summers waitressing @ moraine lake, lake louise & lake o'hara. Everybody had mountain fever so lots of hiking, backpacking w sleeping bags, wild camping. in the smaller lodges we'd work 10-14 days, then 4 days off so we could do decent expeditions.

if you only have one hike it could be the farther tea house at lake louise. Not the nearby teahouse at lake Agnes, which is only a short uphill walk from the chateau, but the historic tea house on the Plain of Six Glaciers, several km farther along the same trail. It's high on the lower slopes of mount victoria itself. The trail continues up & over the continental divide through abbott pass on the southern side of mount victoria, but you won't have time (it's dangerous, avalanches, groups these days might even be required to have a guide) 

getting to & from the plain of Six plus lunch is already most of a day's hike

banff park has several stone shelters that were built for the CPR by swiss mountain guides nearly a century ago, where hikers & mountaineers can sleep for free. But they are all very remote, located at the tops of high valleys or in mountain passes (a famous one that can sleep 12 or 15 sits at the top of the above-mentioned abbott pass) so these won't help your accommodation needs.

can you rent some kind of small RV instead of a car? or rent or borrow a tent plus camping gear?

you could probably find a reasonably priced room in the hamlet of lake louise itself. I see the Post hotel is still going strong.

dubmac has mentioned his favourite place, lake o'Hara lodge. This could be a 2nd day with an overnight at the lodge itself (expensive but probably worth it) You'd really be getting your mountaineering money's worth if you did back-to-back lake louise & lake o'hara.

o'hara is another century-old timbered CPR lodge, with little log cabins scattered around the lakeshore. These days they seem to pride themselves on fine cuisine in the dining room plus a carefully curated collection of BC wines in the cellar. The prices might surprise on the high side; but it would only be for one dinner plus one night; & the experience will be unforgettable. What is money for, if not to have unforgettable experiences?

lake o'hara itself is the other side of the same mount victoria continental divide folks can see at lake louise. In fact mountaineers consider the approach from lake o'hara in BC to be safer than the approach from lake louise in alberta. A party climbing the abbott pass from lake o'hara would stay overnight in the stone shelter at the top of the pass, then start their descent at 2 am before the daytime avalanches start falling.

if you get to o'hara you'd hike up into what they call the Opaybin alpine meadows. There's a glacier. A small glacial lake the colour of bright turquoise blue paint. Red, orange, yellow, blue wildflowers. To the west you can see hundreds of mountain tops receding away forever. It all looks like the day of creation.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's a peripheral question to my original one. It looks like I may have an earlier work trip to Calgary, at the end of May. I am not opposed to driving around these places more than once!

On this May trip I'd have to start and end in Calgary (flying in/out). I'm thinking of using the opportunity to drive to Banff, and it's a much lower season for hotels as well. My question is: might I still encounter snow and ice on roads at the end of May? How far can I realistically go, considering I'm in a rental car that won't have amazing tires.

Only as far as Banff? How about as far as Jasper?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> My question is: might I still encounter snow and ice on roads at the end of May? How far can I realistically go, considering I'm in a rental car that won't have amazing tires.


You *might* is the best answer I can give. It's normally snow free at lower elevations but it can happen if a storm blows through. I personally have hit some snow, nothing major though, in June while driving in that area.


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## Gruff403 (Jan 30, 2019)

Calgary to Lake Louise is just under 200 Km one way but remember the speed limit is only 90 Kmph in Banff Park. It's four lanes all the way to Lake Louise. I live in Calgary and we had friends from Ontario visit in mid April. We did Calgary to Canmore where we stopped for lunch. Drove to Lake Loiuse and hiked to end of lake to frozen water fall. Back to Banff and drove out to Lake Minnewanka for a look. Into Banff town site for supper and a bit of shopping. Back to Calgary about 12 hours total. Roads were bare and dry but that can change quickly.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have never encountered snow or ice on the roads at the end of May. Your tires will be fine.

We have encountered some snow showers. Once some hail. But neither stuck on the road. Road could be wet but it dries quickly. Plus, if you are driving you will find that the showers are typically very local. At times you can drive in to them and out of them in minutes We have had snow in just about every month of the year. Once, while camping in August, we woke up to snow. It did not stay and the roads were draw by the time we got busy and left the campsite. If you are doing any hiking you will find lots of snow as you move up to the highline/skyline trails.

Anything can happen in the mountains though. Nothing can be taken for granted. One good thing about May is that a lot of the kids and dogs will be off the road, fewer campers, a lot few inexperienced mountain/RV drivers in those rentals. Multiple delays of up to 1/2 hr or so on the highway because of the twinning project between Kamloops and Lake Louise.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Here's a peripheral question to my original one. It looks like I may have an earlier work trip to Calgary, at the end of May. I am not opposed to driving around these places more than once!
> 
> On this May trip I'd have to start and end in Calgary (flying in/out). I'm thinking of using the opportunity to drive to Banff, and it's a much lower season for hotels as well. My question is: might I still encounter snow and ice on roads at the end of May? How far can I realistically go, considering I'm in a rental car that won't have amazing tires.
> 
> Only as far as Banff? How about as far as Jasper?


There is always chance like a freak (or no so freaky snow storm) like Saturday. It was blizzarding on some roads and the 93 (near Jasper) almost white out. Today, it's sunny and beautiful, just a little chilly. 

I am taking the chance and driving out with my girls for an end of month camp. Since we have had snow in literally every month of the year, there is always a small change of snow in the mountains. If it does snow, chances are it won't stay on the road very long, and won't be a long cold snap. If you come in May, it definitely won't be there warm. You need to remember that the mountains can be a good 10 degrees cooler. I ALWAYS have a packable down or two, plus light gloves and toque. My winter stuff never gets packed. 

You could definitely do Banff and lake Louise in a day. I find with Jasper to get the full effect (the glacier, sky walk, and town) you will need a full day with driving or over night.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks guys. It's good to hear that the roads would (likely) be OK for Banff & Lake Louise in late May. I will certainly have clothes and layers with me. I'm fine with chilly weather, it's the road conditions I'm worried about.

I'm feeling kind of guilty for having so many trips to Calgary over the years but never bothering to drive out that way.


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## DenisD (Apr 19, 2009)

By the end of May, Castle Lookout should be okay. It's all south facing with about 500 m elevation gain. Good view of the Bow Valley. Or, in Banff, you can just go for a walk up Tunnel Mountain. Lots of trails will still need cleats.

Here's a link to the Banff Park trail report:
https://www.pc.gc.ca/apps/tcond/cond_e.asp?oPark=100092

I see Castle Lookout is not there yet.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

J4B you might want to google drive & hike tours i.e., Macs Adventures comes up with some hiking trails you might want to check out Ultimate Canadian Rockies drive & hike. I have no experience with these guys though my guess is they are going to pick the best trails in the area which you can always do on your own. I was thinking of hiking out West in Summer & thought their loop of hiking trails would be fun though I would probably just do it without using them.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Using local knowledge when hiking or biking or fishing out here is priceless. The small cost of joining an organized hike would be well worth it.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

We go to the mountains a few times a year. For your short time span, I would fly in to CGY, drive to banff, up to Jasper, and fly out of (edit) Edmonton.

The drive from Calgary to banff is pretty awesome. Just the sight of the mountains over the foothills is pretty sweet any time of day, but especially closer to dusk.
IF you're in to skiing Sunshine is usually open until may long weekend - bring sunscreen. Driving from banff to jasper in mid to late may should be fine, though there is a chance of a quick snow storm. MOst likely it will be gorgeous. It is snowing in Edmonton today, and Calgary is getting more.
Having been to both Jasper and Banff hundreds of times, I prefer Jasper. Far more laid back and 'Canadian'. I find banff too touristy. Japanese, Chinese and German are the common languages in summer. JAsper less so. I think it's worth stopping in for a snack/beer/tea at JPL and walking around the lake. Very chill compared to banff springs. If the weather is hot, I would absolutely do horseshoe lake by jasper. a wide variety of cliff jumping in to the clearest water you'll ever see. It's a very popular spot with picnicers and families. The water is frigid, but refreshing on a hot day. HWY 16 in and out of jasper is one lane each way, undivided. You will often get stopped by sheep or elk crossing the road. HWY 1 in and out of Banff is a 4 lane divided hwy - no wildlife. I think you'll have a greater chance of seeing elk and big horn sheep walking around the streets of JAsper than you will in Banff.
In May, hotels will be relatively cheap and available. July/Aug you'll be paying 2x-3x as much. We've never not been able to get a room. Hotels in Jasper are all good, there are no 'bad' hotels. I don't know about Banff as we usually stay in Canmore or Calgary with friends.
It's pretty dry in some parts, so there's always a chance of forest fires. They can really screw up travel and views.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

View from my window in Banff this morning.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

nobleea said:


> We go to the mountains a few times a year. For your short time span, I would fly in to CGY, drive to banff, up to Jasper, and fly out of Calgary.


Your post brought back fond memories. We lived in Edmonton but loved escaping to the mountains anytime. Banff was a favourite when our kids were learning to ski (Sunshine not Norquay!). My Dad came out from Toronto and he could not believe how beautiful winter was in the mountains.

Once in November. we rented a motor home and took our in-laws to see Drumheller, Calgary, Waterton Lakes, Crowsnest, Fairmont Hot Springs, Radium, Lake Louise, Icefields Parkway, Jasper and back. They were awestruck by the beauty.

Any Canadian who has not seen it is really missing out. I could write paragraphs about it!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Even though we grew up in Montreal and Peterborough, and most relatives are still there, neither of us could ever consider moving away from the Calgary-Vancouver area. We talked about it for all of about 10 seconds. It is a different world in so many ways.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

kcowan said:


> Your post brought back fond memories. We lived in Edmonton but loved escaping to the mountains anytime. Banff was a favourite when our kids were learning to ski (Sunshine not Norquay!). My Dad came out from Toronto and he could not believe how beautiful winter was in the mountains.
> 
> Once in November. we rented a motor home and took our in-laws to see Drumheller, Calgary, Waterton Lakes, Crowsnest, Fairmont Hot Springs, Radium, Lake Louise, Icefields Parkway, Jasper and back. They were awestruck by the beauty.
> 
> Any Canadian who has not seen it is really missing out. I could write paragraphs about it!


Just noted an error, I would fly out of Edmonton. No point driving back to Calgary from Jasper. Besides YEG cross border area is nicer than YYC's now. And there's a direct flight to SEA for James.
Yes, it's just as epic in the winter, sometimes more so when the sun is out. Once a year I drive out for a day of skiing with some friends. Out and back in a day. Last year we went all the way to Lake Louise and back in one day (with a full day of skiing).
Golden - food or drinks at the top of Kicking Horse - is always epic as well. The mountain biking down the hill is pretty sweet. Radium area is also amazing. Such a different landscape.
Have yet to make it down to Waterton, though we have driven through the Crowsnest a couple times.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Waterton in November is taken over by elk. We were all impressed but the in-laws from Toronto were blown away. Woke up in the morning in the middle of a herd! The kids wanted to go out and play with them. They showed no fear but eventually gave us a wide berth.

In Radium there was a dusting of snow overnight then we drove to Lake Louise with the glistening snow and bright blue sky. In Fairmont, we all plunged into the hot springs. It helped FILs arthritis. MIL had not brought a bathing suit but she went in her undergarments. She was conservative English but the draw was too great.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

nobleea said:


> Have yet to make it down to Waterton, though we have driven through the Crowsnest a couple times.


Have only been to Waterton once and came "way to close for comfort" to a Grizzly bear at driftwood beach.


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## Gruff403 (Jan 30, 2019)

Waterton had major fire two years ago. Burn came right down to town's edge. Visited last year and lots of hiking trails and roads were closed. Will definitely go back when some of the forest has regrown and more of park is open. Despite the fire carnage it was still worth the visit. One benefit of the fire was that tourist numbers were down.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

ian said:


> We have never encountered snow or ice on the roads at the end of May. Your tires will be fine.
> 
> ... Anything can happen in the mountains though. Nothing can be taken for granted. ...


I agree with last part of the statement. I was in Lake Louise on a July 1, when it snowed on the Icefields Parkway, and they actually closed the road for a day or two. Fortunately we had already crossed it travelling south from Jasper the previous day. But it created a right mess in Lake Louise, with Tourists looking for emergency accommodation, and tour buses backed up. However, this is rare.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Took a trip from Vancouver to Banff by rail in 1986 and it was most enjoyable with memorable scenic views. They still had the old 1955 glass top passenger cars. If they still offer anything like that, I recommend going by rail.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Took a trip from Vancouver to Banff by rail in 1986 and it was most enjoyable with memorable scenic views. They still had the old 1955 glass top passenger cars. If they still offer anything like that, I recommend going by rail.


I think that route was sold, or at least privatized, to a company - rocky mountineers tourshttps://www.rockymountaineer.com/package-search?destination_location[]=Vancouver. Now you pay! not many deals to be had.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

dubmac said:


> I think that route was sold, or at least privatized, to a company - rocky mountineers tourshttps://www.rockymountaineer.com/package-search?destination_location[]=Vancouver. Now you pay! not many deals to be had.


Via rail still offers the service on their mainline as well.

The thing with rail is that it takes back seat to all freight traffic on that line. The passenger train is often significantly late (sometimes by up to a day) due to freight traffic. If you're not in a hurry, it's enjoyable.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

nobleea said:


> Via rail still offers the service on their mainline as well.
> 
> The thing with rail is that it takes back seat to all freight traffic on that line. The passenger train is often significantly late (sometimes by up to a day) due to freight traffic. If you're not in a hurry, it's enjoyable.


Most people don't realize the Rocky Mountaineer is a waste of money. It's a tour company product plain and simple. Nor do most people realize that it is the regular service, The Canadian, running from Toronto to Vancouver year round, that uses the iconic stainless steel cars with the glass top dome cars. https://www.viarail.ca/en/explore-o...ockies-and-pacific/toronto-vancouver-canadian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyyrBiPhJq4


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

nobleea said:


> Via rail still offers the service on their mainline as well.
> 
> The thing with rail is that it takes back seat to all freight traffic on that line. The passenger train is often significantly late (sometimes by up to a day) due to freight traffic. If you're not in a hurry, it's enjoyable.


Passenger trains do take a back seat to freight trains, especially if you knew how much a time delay could cost the train company. There is one company that the railway will coordinate the passenger train with is Royal Canadian Pacific. usually these are private bookings. Royalty, a few stars, CEO's, etc have been on it. I have to say it is SPECTACULAR. I was lucky enough to go on when it first came out, and it was amazing. It was a luxury hotel, 5 start dining with the most incredible landscape you could imagine. If money is no object, I would recommend it. 

http://www.royalcanadianpacific.com/index.html



Longtimeago said:


> Most people don't realize the Rocky Mountaineer is a waste of money. It's a tour company product plain and simple. Nor do most people realize that it is the regular service, The Canadian, running from Toronto to Vancouver year round, that uses the iconic stainless steel cars with the glass top dome cars. https://www.viarail.ca/en/explore-o...ockies-and-pacific/toronto-vancouver-canadian
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyyrBiPhJq4


It is a tour company. Having rode on the trains in a commercial/freight setting, the little extra you pay is not too bad for the experience. I wouldn't pay for it, but it's a nice option for nostalgia.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

sparky61 said:


> James; If you have the time, 2 easy, 1/2 day, spectacular hikes are Wilcox Pass and Parker's Ridge. Both a few minutes drive from the Icefields Centre.


Just did my first 10 year anniversary hike of Wilcox pass last summer. Working on a life-long 10 year interval time-lapse photo of the glacier melting.

I'll be out camping in Jasper July 26-29 James. Lemme know if you're around.

Don't know what to do about hotels... they have been insane the past couple years in the mountains... not sure what's going on. You literally can't book anything or if you can it's $400/night. Think last year the only place left was the Fairmont for $600. That's why I camped lol.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks again everyone for the great suggestions. I don't even know the dates of my trip yet but I'm going to try to leave enough time for these visits.

Thinking about all this put me into a mountain mood, so I took Friday off work and went to Mount Hood for one of the final day of skiing before summer. It was a spectacularly clear, sunny day with great clear views of the Cascade mountain ranges. So incredibly warm that even at 7,300 ft, I was skiing with just a light top. It must have been 5 to 10 C even up there! Still lots of snow, though it was clearly melting.

The ski runs were empty (clearly nobody thought it was possible to ski this) and at times I stopped just to observe and listen. I could hear birds calling back and forth, and other times it was totally silent. Just amazing being able to zip down through the runs in those conditions.

Afterwards, I was on such a high from the skiing that I drove into the forest and went on an hour and a half hike through some of the Mt Hood Forest at the base. The rivers were gushing from the melting snow.

What a great time of year!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

One of our favourite pass-times was going to Sunshine Village of their final weekend. Usually the sun was out and it was too hot for ski clothes. Some people wore shorts and t-shirts. Like you say, no crowds.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I haven't been able to put together the long road trip I was originally thinking, but still will be in Calgary for a business trip.

Is it feasible, if staying in a hotel in Calgary, to do a day trip to Banff (and area) and drive back to Calgary? Sunsets are really late this time of year, around 9 pm.

And if doing a day trip like this, is it a safe bet that Monday-Thursday would be the best days?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Yes it is a short trip. The problem is that there are so many things to see. But better a little than nothing!


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Is it feasible, if staying in a hotel in Calgary, to do a day trip to Banff (and area) and drive back to Calgary? Sunsets are really late this time of year, around 9 pm.
> 
> And if doing a day trip like this, is it a safe bet that Monday-Thursday would be the best days?


Most definitely. We were driving through Banff on last night to out other place. It was still light until after 9. You do need to be careful though driving through the park when the sun starts gong down, especially over the next month or so. There are a lot of wild animals, last night almost missed the black bear and her cubs at the side of the road, they were just about to cross and we had to serve . We weren’t speeding either. They were pretty close along with a lot of other wild life. 

For a day trip, I recommend if you can find a hotel on the west side of the city Trans Canada highway (16th ave). That will save you some time, from that side, you could get to Banff townsite in under an hour. It’s not a bad drive, I have driven to Banff many times at night just to meet friends for dinner.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

IF you got up early, and depending on when, you could actually see Banff, Lake Louise, and Emerald Lake. You could delete some of that and see the Icefields. Depends on time of year, etc. It would be hurried but you could do it. You might be driving home late but you can actually have a full day. Other options, go up the lift in Banff to the top of the world. Depends when you plan to visit. Banff townsite is nice for a little while but no reason to waste your time shopping either.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks kcowan, Plugging Along, ian. Good tips.

Yes must be careful driving at dusk. I like the idea of a hotel on the west side of the city to save some time.


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## Gruff403 (Jan 30, 2019)

Depending on work commitments consider driving to Canmore the night before in the light. Lots of good Hotels available. Lots of people drive from Canmore to Airport to catch outgoing flights. That way you start and end your day in the mountains, maximizing your time.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

^That is an excellent suggestion.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Driving out the night before is a great idea if only 1 night and the following day is available. I'd even do it late at night if you could, in the dark if need be. And it actually makes for a more impressive reveal to not see anything because it's night, and then wake up in Banff in the morning in the middle of the mountains. If you go out the night before then you can actually make it out to Moraine lake/Lake Louise in the morning.

If not, I'd probably not go any farther than just Banff townsite and the stuff right around there. I guess you could push for Lake Louise, but that's a big driving day. 

Now, depending on your expectations, you might be a bit disappointing with a day trip. Especially if you've done a lot of west coast American mountains/outdoor stuff James? As a first-timer to real mountains, I was very impressed by Banff when I was 20 years old... but most of the best awe-inspiring views in the parks are past the Banff town, between Banff and Jasper town. The stuff around Banff and Canmore is "pretty good", but also depending on weather and air visibility you are rather a distance from the actual mountains between Canmore and Banff and they are more background objects. Once past Banff on the highway, towards the interior, things are more "in your face". 

If you only have time for right around Banff though and coming from Calgary for the day, I'd do:

Banff falls and the lookout on the other side of the river to see the view of the hotel over the falls (involves driving to the other side)
Vermillion Lakes and the view of Rundle mountain - Take the lower road right on the north side of the highway.
Lake Minnewanka/Two jacks loop, to at least see some nice lakes (because it's too far to go to Lake Louise or Moraine Lake)
Gondola ride and lookout for sunset. 

or

Drive straight to Morraine Lake first thing, without stopping.
Lake Louise lookout
Work your way back to Banff along the old highway stop at the train tracks lookout etc. (or the main highway is fine too for views)
Maybe check out the Hotel/falls lookout, or the Gondola ride in the evening and that's the day.


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

There are many people that commute from Canmore to Calgary for the regular work day. its a busy divided hwy all the way there. This is for HWY 1. I've driven it at all hours and never felt concerned about wildlife, etc. Jasper is worse as it's undivided and there are no wildlife barriers. Dusk is actually the most scenic time to drive west, I think. It's divided all the way past Lake louise with wildlife fencing.
In addition to canmore, dead man's flats and harvie heights have some reasonable accommodations as well.

We have friends that drive to Canmore regularly just for the weekend (from Edmonton). It's a bit long for me.

When I worked in Calgary, I would often go out downhill skiing in banff area for the afternoon and thought nothing of it.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

JAMES: Just wondering if you are still planning to go to the Calgary-Banff area, or did that get cancelled due to your sabbatical/retirement? It's getting pretty hazy in Calgary. Forest fires have started up North already.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> JAMES: Just wondering if you are still planning to go to the Calgary-Banff area, or did that get cancelled due to your sabbatical/retirement? It's getting pretty hazy in Calgary. Forest fires have started up North already.


It doesn't look like I'll make it for at least another couple months, but there's still a possible trip later this summer.

Wow the haze is reaching Calgary?


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

It is about five.

Last night we could see the downtown core through the haze. We can no longer see the mountains. Not yet as bad as last year. Cannot smell it yet.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

couple of olympic athletes in the family travelled out to calgary banff & lake louise during the fires last summer. Could not believe the bizarre photographs. They were walking in bathing suits (they are divers) in the middle of a thick beige coloured fog. This was the smoke. Behind them, through the pea soup, one could just make out big rocks & pine trees alongside a rushing river.

it really aches to hear that all this is starting again. May the valiant firefighters, armed with knowledge gained from last year's horrific experiences, get the new blazes under control much sooner this year. Wishing clear blue skies & sunny mountain vistas to alberta.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It doesn't look like I'll make it for at least another couple months, but there's still a possible trip later this summer.
> 
> Wow the haze is reaching Calgary?


It hit really badly this evening. it was 6.8 a few hours ago, and is now even worst. It come in suddenly, my kid was at soccer game and they called it at half because it was considered dangerous.

Of course I have kids camping trip in Banff this weekend. Let's hope for some rain or a different breeze.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

That's pretty bad, sorry to hear that. I know what this is like because Oregon has been smoky too (not yet this year, thankfully). I remember flying back on a small plane from AB to OR, descending into a forest fire region... the sun was almost blacked out once we got below the smoke layer. One of the eeriest things I've ever seen.

You might want to run a portable HEPA air filter indoors


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

The streetlights turned on at 11am today, it was so dark from the smoke. It was almost like fog in the afternoon. Forecast called for a high of 28, but I don't think we got above 18C with all the smoke in the way.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Here is the spread of Alberta smoke at 10 am. See how The Fraser Valley, Vancouver and Seattle are impacted.

Source


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

It's 10+ on the index right now and that picture of Vancouver is so clear compared to what we are seeing (or not seeing right now). There kids at school with masks inside because they could still smell the smoke inside.

Not looking forward to taking a whole bunch of kids to the mountains. It's the first time I hope for rain tonight for a camp so the smoke will clear. 

Have all the air filters and fans on, and it's barely helping. Looking to run out a buy a few more, any recommendations anyone?


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

It's finally cleared up up here in FM, after 3 days of smoke. Maybe the break will make it down your way by tomorrow and Sunday


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

I totally lucked out. The air was totally clear when we arrived and the skies were clear. 







. Had to post a photo. 

I haven’t been to the top of the gondola in a while, but glad we did it. Though pricey, it was really nice.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Banff, Louise, Emerald, Bow Lake were all perfect for the past few days. We booked a last minute in Banff for Sunday night. Lots of smoke on the drive up in the AM but once past Canmore it got progressively better. It was stunning in the mountains on Sunday and Monday. We had a drink on the patio at Chateau Lake Louise and we could see some haze looking straight out yet Sulfer and the view west were absolutely clear.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Sounds great, ian! Unfortunately I wasn't able to squeeze vacation time into a Calgary trip, but in July, there might be an opportunity to drive through the area. The hesitation I now have is about heavily booked accommodations and potentially not being able to find a place en route.

When you say 'booked a last minute', do you mean you got something like a Hotwire hotel?


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I have used Hotwire in Toronto, Strasbourg and Frankfurt with great success. In the day when they hid the hotel, I always got the one I would have wanted anyway. Now it is more transparent.

Once it failed me because I was booking for Toronto airport for an overnight, and its choices were all too far way (like Dixie Road). Although they offered free transfers, that was more time than I wanted. So I paid more using Expedia (although Trivago was not as good on choices and prices)!


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have used Hotwire occasionally. We have had excellent results bidding four and five stars on Priceline. In the US, and especially in London and Paris-both in town and at airport locations. Also had a few laterooms.com bookings that were very good.

We have done a few Hotwires in Banff, never had a Priceline win. This time, booking direct was less expensive than using Hotwire. We find that Sunday nights at this time of year is good for getting reduced rates in Banff-either direct or through opaque sites. Same for for late Sept/early Oct.


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## ludetuner (Dec 28, 2016)

If you have a few days, my suggestion would be to fly in and out of Calgary. Drive through Kananaskis from Hwy 40 through to Hwy 742 (Spray Lakes), which will lead you to Canmore. Keep in mind a big section of this road is unpaved/gravel. 

Other places to check out (other than Kananaskis and Canmore are Banff/Lake Moraine (go very early as they close the road due to traffic congestion)/lake Louise/Jasper.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Don't think I'd do the Spray Lakes to Canmore segment despite its beauty. Almost a certainty to get a rock chip in the windshield from idiots going too fast (especially in their pickup trucks) and that isn't something rental car companies like much. We would almost always get a rock chip travellng on there in our hiking group trips. Don't know what it is about yahoos in their pick ups having disregard for others on gravel roads but it is a common issue.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Not to mention having to close the windows to avoid eating their dust. Part of the joy is breathing the fresh mountain air while enjoying the scenery.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Last time we traveled that route was when I had a company car. Would not do it with my own-even on a weekday.

You could do Calgary-Longview, then the Kananaskis loop back to TCH. Paved all the way. No rock chips. Few issues. Good scenery. Stop at the Delta.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A question for you outdoors people who go hiking anywhere isolated, deep woods:

Do you carry any kind of protection against wild animals? In case of an unlikely encounter with a bear, mountain lion, etc. Perhaps a knife? And if so, can you recommend a sensible blade length, something I can pick up at Canadian Tire? I realize it's very unlikely I'd have an encounter, but am considering carrying something if it can improve my odds in a fight.

At the very least I'd pick up a sturdy stick and sharpen it.

In the US, I carried pepper spray which should be moderately effective against several animals. But there also weren't any bears where I was hiking before, so I didn't really worry about it before now.

If you're curious, I'm asking because I'm in Northwest Ontario and there definitely are black bears, everywhere. (Two of my friends here have been attacked by bears in this region). I'll try to make noise and stay away from them but I'm interested in ideas for a worst case scenario.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I've never believed in bear spray because you have to be upwind and the bear almost on top of you before it can be effective. In all my hiking days in the Rockies, the most effective deterrent is to make noise.

But to be safe, I always carried a 'bear banger' which is basically a device that looks like a pen light with a 22 cartridge blank (no bullet) screwed on one end of it. You pull back a spring loaded pin which when let go, impinges on the cap on the end of the cartridge, and explodes the blank, just like a rifle shot. That is enough to rattle a bear, maybe even a cougar, and scare it off. Cartridges come in a six or ten pack. Outdoor stores should carry them

I also always carry a hunting knife in my pack in case I need to make a splint out in the wilderness. About a 9 inch blade. Can also buy at most outdoor stores.

With a cougar attack, they will almost always try to get to your neck from behind. The objective is to do what you can to jam in their eyes with whatever you can. They should panic and let go if they feel searing pain in an eye or lose eyesight. I would normally carry the hunting knife on my belt but it can be startling/menacing to fellow hikers.

Added: Bear banger, CTire https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/tru-flare-bear-bangers-pen-pull-launcher-1750108p.html

Hunting knife: CTire https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/buck-119-fixed-blade-knife-0756036p.html A little shorter than what I have but similar...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks AltaRed, great info. Do you think Cabela's would carry those 'bear bangers'?

Good info about the knife. The reason I asked about the blade is a similar concern, that I don't want to scare other people, but it has to be big enough to possibly inflict some harm on a big animal. Do you think a 4 inch blade is big enough?

Saw your edit, you're suggesting a 6 inch blade. Is that as short as you'd go?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We had a camp north of Parry Sound and people there said they wouldn't travel in the deep woods without a rifle. 

One guy in our park was moose hunting and stepped over a log where a bear was sleeping on the other side.

The bear attacked him and he had to shoot it twice to stop it. 

Other bears came into our camp and broke windows trying to get in. One guy shot a bear with a shotgun right off his deck. They skinned that bear right there.

The government gives statistics but they have no idea how many bears actually get shot and dragged into the bush. People just don't report it because it is a hassle.

We used to run into lots of bears on our ATV's but they would scatter away and are unlikely to follow a noisy fast machine, but stalking a hiker is easy for a bear.

Along the trail we also saw the strength of a bear and the damage it can do. They leave long claw marks in the trunks of trees and turn over boulders with ease looking for food.

I have never heard of anyone being killed by a bear in that area and most just mosey along minding their own business.........but you never know.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So there was a news report of a person being attacked by a wolf in Banff National Park.

It was in the process of dragging the guy away when another camper came to help.

They said it was the first known attack in the park. The wolf was grossly underweight and starving.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...campground-on-social-media-campground-reopens


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Personally I carry bear spray along with everyone else I'm traveling with. As AR points out you do need to wait and discharge from a short distance and are still likely to get some drift and bear damage. But a solid hit in the face is probably the best way to give a grizzly pause. Hopefully others in my party could/would also respond. 
I do carry a sheath knife (5" I think, German, with a pronounced hand guard) but I' m not sure how effective it would be once you are hit with a locomotive that has teeth and claws on you.

Added: as has been mentioned, making noise along the way is important. Most encounters occur when you come upon an unsuspecting animal.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Bear bangers and spray serve 2 entirely different purposes

If you see a bear first it really depends on the distance and what the bear is doing etc. I've encountered hundreds and the vast majority run away immediately (small skittish) or pay little attention to me and hold their ground (bigger)

If the bear is acting too curious (maybe young or desperate) then you can try to deter it with noise. This is where a bear banger, air horn, sound grenade etc come into play. I've never used them. From others far more experienced they work on skittish bears but do f all in a dangerous encounter.

If a bear charges you'll want bear spray. This can happen immediately without warning. There's no time to pop off bear bangers at close range and they would probably only stress the bear more. Proper bear spray propellent is very powerful at close range vs wind.

Many claim you need a gun but I've met alaskans who were attacked with no time to arm and aim a gun. If you can reach a can of spray quickly it makes a lot more practical sense to me in the rare case of an impending attack at close range.

I don't see how a knife would be much use against a bear but a good bush knife that is highly recommended and cheap is Morakniv (4", $20)


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Do you think Cabela's would carry those 'bear bangers'?


If you carry a bear banger, make sure you are a good judge of distance. Why?, you ask?

When I worked in mining exploration back in the 80's, We were always among bears in N. Ont / Que / MB.
Our base camp consisted of many canvas-covered cabins positioned along a long narrow, linear board-walk - about 80 m long. The last building was the kitchen - so logically, that is where the bears were attracted. 
Once a bear was in the kitchen, the camp manager used his bear banger to scare the bear. The bear was 15 m away, and the bear banger exploded about 20 m from the camp manager.
The bear ran right toward him!

..also..if you encounter a cougar, play Metallica "Don’t Tread On Me" at high volume. Apparently it works like a hot damn.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I came to a traffic jam on the Icefields Parkway this summer

People emptied out of RVs and vans, rushing towards the group of teenaged girls on the side of the highway taking selfies. Their backs to a bear sitting in the ditch waiting for some food. Same thing in Yellowstone

I think you're better off on public lands where the bears don't equate people with tourists and snacks


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The grizzly bear scene from Revenent gives a pretty good account of what they can do.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

m3s said:


> If a bear charges you'll want bear spray. This can happen immediately without warning. There's no time to pop off bear bangers at close range and they would probably only stress the bear more. Proper bear spray propellent is very powerful at close range vs wind.
> 
> Many claim you need a gun but I've met alaskans who were attacked with no time to arm and aim a gun. If you can reach a can of spray quickly it makes a lot more practical sense to me in the rare case of an impending attack at close range.


I have encountered a fair number of bears, black and grizzly. Never been charged, even when chasing a grizzly from moose quarters on a camp meat rack.

But were I in a charge situation, assuming it was in close quarters and somewhat unexpected, leaving no time to wield a long gun (something like a .458 Winchester Magnum or a .460 Weatherby would be a choice of long gun), I would prefer to trust my luck to a handgun, with at least the firepower of a .357 Magnum. But, of course, we Canadians cannot be trusted with sidearms, so better a can of Off or Raid. 

But does it take more time to "arm and aim" a gun than "arm and aim" a tin can? Not sure what "arming" is required in either case. A double action revolver or an autoloader with a cartridge in the chamber is pretty much armed already. The latter will require slipping off the safety catch. I would be faster drawing a gun from a holster than a tin can from a backpack. Or do they come with holsters? I would just feel a little more hopeful of the outcome if a 1200-pound Alaska brown bear was bearing down on me with all valves blown if I had a .44 mag in hand than rather than a can of mace. The latter might just piss him off.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Also the documentary "Grizzly Man" by Werner Herzog shows what can happen when people take their "relationship" with bears or any wild animal for granted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man

When we owned our camp, I had a heck of a time keeping my son from riding the ATVs to the dump and stirring up the bears. He had no idea what could happen to him and admits today that he got chased a few times. I told him he is lucky they didn't cut off his escape route and a bear can outrun an ATV on a winding trail. 

I am glad I didn't know the extent of his teenage idiocy.

People see bears as cute and don't realize they kill and eat moose for a living.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Thanks AltaRed, great info. Do you think Cabela's would carry those 'bear bangers'?
> 
> Good info about the knife. The reason I asked about the blade is a similar concern, that I don't want to scare other people, but it has to be big enough to possibly inflict some harm on a big animal. Do you think a 4 inch blade is big enough?
> 
> Saw your edit, you're suggesting a 6 inch blade. Is that as short as you'd go?


A 6 inch knife as I have shown should be plenty good. It needs a good hand grip and hand guard as shown so your hand doesn't slide on to the blade. A knife isn't going to be of much use when you are already being mauled.... unless you can get to the eyes. Simply because the animal is in adrenaline mode too, knife wounds may not stop anything. I have read where a slice to the neck, e.g. jugular, has worked but one has to be of extreme presence of mind to make that slice.

I also agree with what m3s says about bear spray. It depends on how sudden the attack is. I always kept my 'bear banger' loaded, i.e. with a cartridge screwed into the end. I only had to cock and release from the device which I kept in a breast pocket. I doubt I'd have the nerve and presence to use bear spray effectively and quickly.

I know nothing about Capela but if it is an outdoor store with camping, hiking, fishing and hunting equipment, they would have bear bangers.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

In 1999, Ontario cancelled the annual spring bear hunt. The bear numbers multiplied and it became a dangerous problem in some areas.

Ontario reinstated the bear hunt in 2016 and at least the numbers will not only be reduced, but the bears will become more wary of humans.

Bears aren't domesticated pets. There are lots of stories of bears turning on humans they were familiar with.

One story was a guy in the far north who had sled dogs. He fed the local grizzly bear every day and had no problems. He went away and didn't feed the bear and it ate his dogs.

The safest way to travel the back country is in a group. Personally, I would never do it alone without some kind of firearms. I am not Daniel Boone.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> But does it take more time to "arm and aim" a gun than "arm and aim" a tin can? Not sure what "arming" is required in either case. A double action revolver or an autoloader with a cartridge in the chamber is pretty much armed already. The latter will require slipping off the safety catch. I would be faster drawing a gun from a holster than a tin can from a backpack. Or do they come with holsters? I would just feel a little more hopeful of the outcome if a 1200-pound Alaska brown bear was bearing down on me with all valves blown if I had a .44 mag in hand than rather than a can of mace. The latter might just piss him off.


I carried a side arm professionally, used to train extensively live/simulated and still refresh annually. I carry bear spray (and I could have bought any side arm in Alaska no questions asked hah) Bear spray is just so much more practical and realistic. It's far lighter and easier to carry, easier to buy etc. I pack it the same as water (which I reach for all the time) or pocket/carabiner it when the pack is off. I don't have to clean, maintain it, train on it etc.

Lots of Alaskans will tell everyone they meet that they need a gun and then they rarely stray far from their home or city. It doesn't make sense to me to tell someone they need a gun when they're going hiking. Having done the simulated training with various experienced instructors I can only smile & nod at all the people imagine they will drop a charging bear under pressure.. who maybe did some basic intro training +10 years ago or shot a deer etc

I'm not saying guns don't have their place for dealing with nuisance, desperate or habituated bears. If you already train and carry a gun for other reasons then I can see why you'd scoff at adding bear spray. But if you're going hiking and ask whether you should buy spray or a gun.. Some deterrence such as noise and managing bear attractants has worked so far. That and just not camping where there are recent signs or food sources


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

m3s said:


> I can only smile & nod at all the people imagine they will drop a charging bear under pressure.. who maybe did some basic intro training +10 years ago or shot a deer etc


I agree with most of what you say. Equally, I smile and nod at most who imagine dropping a charging bear under pressure with a can of bear spray. Not too likely. I'll also agree that a firearm won't be much use to someone who is not skilled in its use. One must be totally comfortable with such a tool and have had practice, practice and more practice. For most, to afford that, requires one to load one's own ammunition, including casting one's own bullets. I have done that since I was a kid. My father taught me that wheel weights salvaged from a scrapyard for almost nothing make quite a satisfactory bullet metal, usually with a good balance of lead, tin and antimony required for the correct degree of hardness. Linotype metal also works well, but not common nowadays. I have always relied on rolling my own, except for competition shooting. I have shot .38 Special in competition where everyone was using home-cast wadcutters.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Guys, I don't realistically think I have much of a fighting chance against a bear. Maybe against a big cat - yes. At the very least, the confidence of carrying some kind of weapon could tilt the odds in my favour... I'm talking about a very low probability event, but it's a survival matter of life & death if it ever happens. Any advantage in my favour is desirable, and if means stabbing around with a knife during an animal attack and at least making him hurt, that could help.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I didn't even realize bear spray was legal in Canada. I know pepper spray (which is legal in many US states) is not legal in Canada... bear spray is dfiferent?



> I don't see how a knife would be much use against a bear but a good bush knife that is highly recommended and cheap is Morakniv (4", $20)


Where can someone get a good deal like that? Thanks m3s and appreciate the bear notes.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

If you think you need a knife that might be called upon for serious defence against an animal attack, I suggest buying a quality knife with a full tang and a substantial guard on it, so your hand does not slide down over the blade if you make a stabbing motion with power behind it. I like the Puma fixed-blade types for this, such as the Puma Bowie or Puma Skinner. I have both and they are well made and very strong.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A razor sharp machete might come in handy or a sword, cutlass, tomahawk, or trench knife.........or maybe an assortment of them as they have other purposes.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

dubmac said:


> If you carry a bear banger, make sure you are a good judge of distance. Why?, you ask?
> . . .
> The bear ran right toward him!


Do you mean the bear banger worked in frightening away the bear, except due to the relative location of the bang point, the frightened bear ran away from the noise and towards the man?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

james4beach said:


> Do you mean the bear banger worked in frightening away the bear, except due to the relative location of the bang point, the frightened bear ran away from the noise and towards the man?


I understand it was a different individual some distance away.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

This discussion on bears & camping has made my day...my ribs hurt ...Sags wins with best response ever.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> I understand it was a different individual some distance away.


These have all been great tips. Obviously my focus should be on avoiding the bear encounter, making noise, not having open food. And I'll buy some bear bangers.

Other than making noise and calmly walking away (not running) if you do see a bear, what are other good avoidance techniques?

Though I'm hiking alone, I'm also now targeting more popular hikes where there should be other people on the trails. I won't be the only person out there.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

The joke when I was a kid (along with a whole series of "elephant" jokes went like: How do you stop an elephant from charging? Take away his credit card. Might work the same with bears. Or one could always try appealing to its sense of sportsmanship, decency and fair play.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't know what time of year you will be hiking, but be aware that by September, bears start gorging themselves in intensity in preparation for hibernation. Best to stay clear of berry patches and be especially aware around streams where mor lush vegetation and thus food is likely to be found (in addition to any fishing the bears also do). In an earlier life, when I used to be a big game hunter in the fall, I was always careful in/around streams. FWIW, I never had a close bear encounter during those years



> Depending on where the bear lives, hyperphagia may begin as soon as midsummer or as late as autumn. While bears get fattened up during the summer, they do so to apparent extremes during the hyperphagia period. During this time, they eat more than three times the amount of calories they do in the summer. These calories turn into excess fat that will fuel the bears' bodies during hibernation. They also drink large amounts of water per day to help purge excess waste.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks I will be very careful in September. The answer to "what time" is, yesterday, today, tomorrow... this month.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The fall is usually the best time to see through the foliage, so you may see a bear coming. In the bush in the summer, they could be 4 feet from you and you wouldn't know.

Not much you can do if you find yourself facing a bear alone. Stop...and start backing up slowly. Do not challenge the bear. They most often will fake charge and then walk away.

If an attack is inevitable you might as well fight back as best you can. I have run over a hill with the quad right into a mother bear and 4 cubs sitting on the trail.

She didn't know we were there for a second and then she got startled and started rounding up her cubs. We didn't move a muscle and let her clear off into the woods.

Whatever you do..........don't ever get between a mother and her cubs. If you see cubs get out of there pronto.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

yes.


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## dubmac (Jan 9, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Do you mean the bear banger worked in frightening away the bear, except due to the relative location of the bang point, the frightened bear ran away from the noise and towards the man?


yes.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I didn't even realize bear spray was legal in Canada. I know pepper spray (which is legal in many US states) is not legal in Canada... bear spray is dfiferent?
> 
> Where can someone get a good deal like that?


When you buy it in Canada I think you have to sign a registration/waiver and/or disclaimer that it's illegal to use it on people. I crossed the border with it several times and you just have to be careful to call it bear spray. Shipping or flying with it may be an issue but much easier to manage than guns.

Lots of Morakniv knives on amazon - it's like the VBAL of FAQs on bushcraft forums.



james4beach said:


> At the very least, the confidence of carrying some kind of weapon could tilt the odds in my favour... I'm talking about a very low probability event, but it's a survival matter of life & death if it ever happens. Any advantage in my favour is desirable, and if means stabbing around with a knife during an animal attack and at least making him hurt, that could help.


Yea I was going to say it's probably mostly a confidence booster. You're supposed to stay calm and my experience is animals sense confidence or fear. Running triggers instinct to chase prey like a dog etc. If you know you at least have something in case of a charge it's easier to stay calm

While I respect them the vast majority of bears you encounter are just as concerned of you. To a bear getting injured most likely means death in the wild so they prefer to avoid humans.. unless they've met the Banff tourist ones feeding them for selfies


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

Yes, you need to fill out a reg form when you buy bear spray. Make sure you buy a can with a holster (typically light neophrene type material). 
You cannot fly w bear spray. Not in carry on or checked baggage. I've been delayed when someone mentioned having it in their checkin. Their bag had to be located and removed.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Although our bears around Canmore enjoy Tabasco (bear spray) with their tourists I think a cheaper and tastier solution is to duct tape a large bottle of HP Sauce to yourself. 

(people are too busy shitting themselves when attacked by a bear to activate bear spray...who we trying to kid here?)


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I appreciate the earlier advice (a year ago). These days, I'm hiking in areas with even more bears and am still pretty nervous about them. I bought some bear spray at Canadian Tire and decided against the bear bangers.

What do people think about a personal alarm such as this one? Very loud, 130 dB, and I think the idea is that if you encounter a bear which starts following you or lingering, you'd set off the sound which hopefully startles it. Another idea would be Fox 40 whistle which gets to about 115 dB. Thoughts?

SABRE Runner Personal Alarm - 130dB (1,000 Feet/300M Range) with Adjustable/Reflective/Weather-Resistant Wrist Strap for Walking & Running Outdoors: Amazon.ca: Sports & Outdoors


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

All you need to know here in this u-tube video ...


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

james4beach said:


> I appreciate the earlier advice (a year ago). These days, I'm hiking in areas with even more bears and am still pretty nervous about them. I bought some bear spray at Canadian Tire and decided against the bear bangers.
> 
> What do people think about a personal alarm such as this one? Very loud, 130 dB, and I think the idea is that if you encounter a bear which starts following you or lingering, you'd set off the sound which hopefully startles it. Another idea would be Fox 40 whistle which gets to about 115 dB. Thoughts?
> 
> SABRE Runner Personal Alarm - 130dB (1,000 Feet/300M Range) with Adjustable/Reflective/Weather-Resistant Wrist Strap for Walking & Running Outdoors: Amazon.ca: Sports & Outdoors


Not sure you need that fancy thing. Fox 40 whistle for proactive deterring (maybe if you are going into some thick bush) should be good. Whistle also weighs nothing, ties on to anywhere, good for blowing out SOS, and works when wet (that's why Fox 40 is the lifeguard whistle).

Bear spray for emergency encounters.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Could also use a cheap bell or something to make noise as you're walking and give bears advance warning.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

Not really worth overthinking... carry bear spray, and don't tiptoe around in the bush. By all means carry a small blade if it makes you feel better. I do carry a knife occasionally, though not solely for protection. A knife has many uses in the bush.

I know you're a numbers guy James, so you should know that you're more likely to be assaulted or killed by a person than a bear.

Of all the things that can go wrong while hiking, a bear attack is actually quite far down the list. Far more people end up falling, getting lost, or not being prepared in other ways.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm usually more worried I'll encounter some yahoo than a bear... lol.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

peterk said:


> Not sure you need that fancy thing. Fox 40 whistle for proactive deterring (maybe if you are going into some thick bush) should be good. Whistle also weighs nothing, ties on to anywhere, good for blowing out SOS, and works when wet (that's why Fox 40 is the lifeguard whistle).
> 
> Bear spray for emergency encounters.





nathan79 said:


> Not really worth overthinking... carry bear spray, and don't tiptoe around in the bush. By all means carry a small blade if it makes you feel better. I do carry a knife occasionally, though not solely for protection. A knife has many uses in the bush.
> 
> I know you're a numbers guy James, so you should know that you're more likely to be assaulted or killed by a person than a bear.
> 
> Of all the things that can go wrong while hiking, a bear attack is actually quite far down the list. Far more people end up falling, getting lost, or not being prepared in other ways.


Thanks guys. I have the bear spray, and a knife.

I think I'll buy a Fox 40 as well. Sounds very useful for emergency use like blowing SOS, and as you point out, it weighs virtually nothing.

I know that bear attacks are very rare, but I hike alone which raises the risks, so I try to be a bit more careful.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

We saw a couple of bear on the road (while driving) in Jasper this year and there was a bear sighting near our girl guides camp site. 

The precautions we take and teach are

go out in small groups (I know that’s not the case for you)
make noise. All of our girls have bear bells that they have on their packs, but they are usually pretty loud being kids. they havewhistoes or the leaders do, keep it around your neck, not in your pack That’s good for if you are lost too.
Leaders carry bear spray if there are near by sitings
if you come face to face with a bear, slowly back away, never run. if possible, try to put yourself behind a larger object and the bear, like a boulder or tree. If that doesnt work see if there is a tree to climb, skinner is better because bears cannot climb skinny trees. at last resort if it is a brown or black bear, fight- punching in the snout is the best bet if you don’t have a weapon, if it is a grizzly, play dead. grizzlies have flat faces, brown and black have snouts that’s come out more,

honestly, don’t over think it.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> If that doesnt work see if there is a tree to climb, *skinner is better because bears cannot climb skinny trees*.


Not really true for black bears and especially their cubs. They can climb skinny trees, I've seen it myself more than once.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

There has been almost as many shark attacks as bear attacks in Banff Park this year.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

LOL, if a bear is close enough for you to spray it or stab it with a knife, I suggest you just bend over and kiss your butt goodbye.

I have spent 50 years hiking and backpacking in the wilderness and never had a close encounter with a bear. My worst scare was from a moose. 

There is a difference between respect and fear. Anyone talking about carrying a whistle, knife and spray is exhibiting fear, not just respect. Fear is not rational by definition, it is an emotional thought not a logical thought. A bear has no more desire to encounter you than you do it but telling you so has no effect on fear.

If you want to avoid bears that have lost their natural fear of people, then I suggest you do not go where people usually go. That is, avoid campgrounds and popular hiking trail areas. Get off trail and learn to use a map and compass. Hiking in true wilderness is far less likely to result in a bear encounter than camping in a Provincial Park is.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> LOL, if a bear is close enough for you to spray it or stab it with a knife, I suggest you just bend over and kiss your butt goodbye.


So not true, been there, done that ... guess what, still alive and well. 

Once with a Grizzly (in a Provincial Park), twice with Black bears in the forest ... all within 10 feet. Don't bother them and you'll likely be fine.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> So not true, been there, done that ... guess what, still alive and well.
> 
> Once with a Grizzly (in a Provincial Park), twice with Black bears in the forest ... all within 10 feet. Don't bother them and you'll likely be fine.


I can't imagine being so unaware of my surroundings that I would find myself within 10 feet of a bear. To say that I had been caught that unaware THREE times would be beyond embarrassing to me as an outdoorsman. Sounds like a story being laughed at around the campfire about a 'city slicker' who ventured out of his known environment.

Even saying that 3 bears would be stupid enough to come within 10 feet of you would be embarrassing to the bears.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> I can't imagine being so unaware of my surroundings that I would find myself within 10 feet of a bear. To say that I had been caught that unaware THREE times would be beyond embarrassing to me as an outdoorsman. Sounds like a story being laughed at around the campfire about a 'city slicker' who ventured out of his known environment.
> 
> Even saying that 3 bears would be stupid enough to come within 10 feet of you would be embarrassing to the bears.


lmao ... you're so funny LTA, you do assume me (mildly) with your silly assumptions. You armchair posters and 5 star hotel people are pretty much all alike. I spend more time in the forest in a year than you've likely spent in your entire life. Have you ever even camped in the wilderness (I mean in this decade)? On average I spend 20+ hours a week in the forest for three seasons and encounter lots of wildlife. Let's just leave it at that and you can relax back into your armchair.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

LTA, of your 50 years hiking and backpacking in the wilderness, how much was spent in remote parts of central and northern BC, or similar places? My guess is that one does not encounter many grizzly or black bears in the Swiss Alps. 

It is not all that unusual to find oneself at close quarters with a bear in remote places. But most of those close encounters come at night, in my experience. Black bears, in particular, are curious about visitors to their territory, even where they have encountered few, if any, humans before. More than once I have awoken to the sound of a black bear just outside my tent, checking things out. Yes, all foodstuffs were in sealed containers hanging from tree limbs well above ground, but that does not mean that a bear won't come close for a look. Did that make me "so unaware of my surroundings"?

For years I hunted moose in an area outside of the remote location of Alexis Creek, BC. That entailed driving to my friend's ranch, then taking his horses by trailer as far into the wilderness as we could travel by road, then a full day's ride from there to where we would make camp. In those days, it was not unusual to see a couple of dozen moose in a day and many dozens of caribou. I never took out a caribou licence. 

There were a lot of bears. Again, not unusual for a grizzly to come close to camp at night to see if any moose quarters where hanging on the meat rack. If you left a field dressed moose away from camp, good chance the whole thing would be gone the next morning. I have seen that happen when we finished the job after nightfall and it was too much effort to quarter the animal and pack it onto an unwilling horse and get it back to camp that night. So, cover it with spruce boughs and hope for the best until dawn. Even if the grizzlies were not about, the ravens were pretty good at working things over.

In a situation I know would have happened, a friend of mine camped overnight on Long Beach on Vancouver Island, as I have done in the days when that was permitted and the place was not so popular. She awoke in the dark to the feeling of something pressing firmly into the top of her head. What was it? The nose of a black bear, of course. Again, no big surprise for anyone familiar with those kinds of places. Wholly unaware of her surroundings and a damn fool? I would say no.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Mukhang pera said:


> For years I hunted moose in an area outside of the remote location of Alexis Creek, BC. That entailed driving to my friend's ranch, then taking his horses by trailer as far into the wilderness as we could travel by road, then a full day's ride from there to where we would make camp. In those days, it was not unusual to see a couple of dozen moose in a day and many dozens of caribou. I never took out a caribou licence.


I hunted moose in similar remote areas near Tweedsmuir Park....nothing ruined the enjoyable trip more than someone shooting a moose. I do love hearing hunting tales.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Not really true for black bears and especially their cubs. They can climb skinny trees, I've seen it myself more than once.


It was in our program book for their badges. It's one of those last resort things. I figure, if I have to climb a tree I will be in trouble. I always thought a good bear survival technique was to go with people slower than you or who could not climb. Then I realized that's probably me in the group. 

I have only had one close bear encounter, and we were in a tent and it woke us up by surprise. It scared the living daylights out of us as it took a couple of swats at the tent to get check it out. I decided after that sleep with my bag between my head and the tent wall. Not that it would do much, but it did scare the crap out of us.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Mukhang pera said:


> LTA, of your 50 years hiking and backpacking in the wilderness, how much was spent in remote parts of central and northern BC, or similar places? My guess is that one does not encounter many grizzly or black bears in the Swiss Alps.


There do seem to be a lot of bears in BC. It might have to do with the high density of people overlapping with high population of bears.

For comparison, I hiked for years in Oregon and never saw a bear, and never even heard of anyone ever seeing one or having an encounter. There are bears out there but they just aren't visible. It was never an issue, and yes, I did of course talk with other hikers.

Today -- only my _second_ day in the BC back country -- more than one person told me first hand accounts of black bears in this area. My neighbour told me about a close encounter with a grizzly. And one of the more experienced guys I met on the trail asked if I had my bear spray handy, said there are plenty of them out there. I saw many people wearing bear spray holsters.

Hearing that many accounts of bears, and comparing to all my years in Oregon, Manitoba and Ontario, it seems pretty clear that there are far more bears around here than other places I've been.

Oh, and my childhood best friend was attacked by a black bear in northwest Ontario when we were young. So were two people in my swimming club. And another family friend, my dad's coworker. So I know 4 people directly who have been attacked by bears.

I also am a surfer. I lived in Australia for a bit, and always talked with other surfers (both Australia and California) and I have never met anyone who was attacked by a shark.

Bear attacks don't seem that rare.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Mukhang pera said:


> LTA, of your 50 years hiking and backpacking in the wilderness, how much was spent in remote parts of central and northern BC, or similar places? My guess is that one does not encounter many grizzly or black bears in the Swiss Alps.


When I say 'wilderness' Mukhang pera I am referring to off-trail backpacking using a map and compass. From the ages of around 25 to 45, that was my primary recreational activity. On average per year I would spend multiple weekends, long weekends and at least 2 trips of a week or more, wilderrness backpacking. Before age 25 I hiked and camped beginning as many boys do, with Boy Scouts. Since age 45ish I have continued to hike and camp but have done almost no backpacking. That's when I started hiking in the Swiss Alps. But don't confuse my current hiking with my total experience outdoors. think I can safely say I have spent more time in the wilderness than most people.

I have backpacked in places as far north as Kluane in the Yukon which entailed being dropped on a remote lake by floatplane and then backpacking cross country using map and compass to be picked up a week later from another lake. Similarly, I have backpacked in Wood Buffalo by floatplane. Those are wilderness.

My 'go to' areas of Ontario were Algonquin and Killarney in their more remote parts. Weekend trips there year round were a staple even in winter. Backpacking on snowshoes and without a tent makes for some interesting learning experiences. 

If you look at the history of bear attacks, you will find very few reported overall and even far less in what truly are 'remote wilderness' areas. Almost all are in places where people are found. Primarily trails and recognized campgrounds. Since 1881 for example, only 10 people have been killed by a bear in Ontario. All did something or were somewhere that led to those attacks.








Woman killed in northwestern Ontario bear attack - Ontario OUT of DOORS


An American woman killed in a rare black bear attack was staying at a secluded island cabin while attending a family reunion, OPP say.




oodmag.com





In BC, there have been 17 fatalities since 1986. We cannot get a measure of 'encounters' but the low number of fatalities should tell us that there is some kind of corresponding number of encounters. Yet to listen to some people like, 'more than one person' telling james4beach of, 'first hand accounts of black bears in the area', tells me that if they did indeed see a bear 'first hand', then it is a place to not be. People go years in the bush without ever seeing a bear, if 'more than one' person in one day is telling you they saw a bear, that should tell you not to be there.

It tells me, you are on a trail and in an area where you see multiple people in a day. So do the bears and they lose their natural fear of the unknown. Get away from people and chances are you will never even see a bear at any distance. The closest I have ever been to a bear was on the other side of a small lake of around half a mile across. It saw me, I saw it and it moved off back into the treeline. It wanted nothing to do with me.

So you ask how 'remote' is my experience Mukhang pera and I answer that is my whole point. If you actually do go to truly remote areas and stay away from where every dayhiker and their dog goes, that's how to avoid a bear encounter.


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## nathan79 (Feb 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Hearing that many accounts of bears, and comparing to all my years in Oregon, Manitoba and Ontario, it seems pretty clear that there are far more bears around here than other places I've been.
> 
> Oh, and my childhood best friend was attacked by a black bear in northwest Ontario when we were young. So were two people in my swimming club. And another family friend, my dad's coworker. So I know 4 people directly who have been attacked by bears.


Since we're going by anecdotes, I've lived here my entire life and don't know anyone who has been attacked by a bear (not even second hand accounts), despite there being "far more bears around here", as you yourself state.

The reason there are more bears in certain areas is because of human development encroaching into wilderness areas. More people means more food and garbage left lying around, which causes the bears to view us as an easy food source. We also have a lot of people moving here from overseas, many of whom who have no knowledge or experience in dealing with bears. There have even been people caught feeding the bears.

It's been my observation that most bear attacks seem to happen to people who are engaged in a risky activity, such as hunting, or walking their dog in an area with known bear sightings.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Today -- only my _second_ day in the BC back country -- more than one person told me first hand accounts of black bears in this area. My neighbour told me about a close encounter with a grizzly. And one of the more experienced guys I met on the trail asked if I had my bear spray handy, said there are plenty of them out there. I saw many people wearing bear spray holsters.
> 
> Hearing that many accounts of bears, and comparing to all my years in Oregon, Manitoba and Ontario, it seems pretty clear that there are far more bears around here than other places I've been.


Bears are around more than you know but some wilderness areas (not talking about dump bears) do have much higher populations. Waterton Provincial Park has a large population of bears, some people pulled off road side to watch them with binos on the nearby hills, it was quite the view actually.

In Manitoba not a year goes by without me seeing at least a couple of black bears on our trails and that's only the ones "I see" myself, I'm sure there are many, many more. It's never been a problem. 

Here's a cub I got on my GoPro a few years back. I don't always have the GoPro running or I'd have much more bear footage. 









Momma bear wasn't close by but I didn't stick around to see where she was. Plus I don't want to harass or scare the cub anymore than it likely was.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> So I know 4 people directly who have been attacked by bears.


James, not doubting you but that number seems very high. I don't know anyone directly that has been attacked by a bear and I know many people that spend significant time outdoors both in park campsites and remote areas. Even my friends in BC (Kelowna area) have never mentioned bears being a problem.

Also, by "attacked", do you mean they we actually injured by a bear?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> James, not doubting you but that number seems very high. I don't know anyone directly that has been attacked by a bear and I know many people that spend significant time outdoors both in park campsites and remote areas. Even my friends in BC (Kelowna area) have never mentioned bears being a problem.
> 
> Also, by "attacked", do you mean they we actually injured by a bear?


Surprised you haven't heard similar things cainvest, this was mostly in Manitoba and NW Ontario. Nobody was injured, but in all of these cases the bear chased or charged the person -- that's pretty aggressive behaviour for a bear. They normally run away from humans, but the 4 that I'm listing all had a bear pursue or charge the person.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Surprised you haven't heard similar things cainvest, this was mostly in Manitoba and NW Ontario. Nobody was injured, but in all of these cases the bear chased or charged the person -- that's pretty aggressive behaviour for a bear. They normally run away from humans, but the 4 that I'm listing all had a bear pursue or charge the person.


Yes, aggressive behaviour is not something I see myself. When a bear detects my presence they almost always run, a small percentage of time they just walk away. I've never had one challenge me but I don't pressure them to do so either. Most encounters in the forest have us come within 20 meters of the bear before we detect them, we generally freeze to assess the situation, especially in the summer when visibilty is low (< 5 meters) in places due to overgrowth on the trails.

As with many wild animals concerns for our safety rise if they are sick/injured or you get between them and their food or offspring. I've heard of dump bears being aggressive but only when people try to scare them off from the garbage areas and they know humans well.

Wolves worry me more than bears, as they are cunning, steathly and rarely seen. Last year one was using our main trail system (as most wildlife does) and it was over a month before I finally got a glimse of him. I would gather mountain lions, along with wolves, would also be of concern in your area.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Trails, trails, trails. Get off the trails and into the wilderness. By far the largest number of incidents occur where bears have become 'habituated' to human presence.

As for wolves, the same applies and there is even less to fear if you are not in an area where they have become habituated to humans.



https://wolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Are-Wolves-Dangerous-to-Humans.pdf



Bears, wolves, cougars, rattlesnakes, scorpions, etc. are all 'boogeymen' that are over blown by people in terms of risk. But even in terms of the real level of risk, if you do not go where they have become habituated to humans, you have very little to be concerned about at all.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Trails, trails, trails. Get off the trails and into the wilderness. By far the largest number of incidents occur where bears have become 'habituated' to human presence.
> 
> As for wolves, the same applies and there is even less to fear if you are not in an area where they have become habituated to humans.
> 
> ...


Just because there are trails doesn't mean you're not "in the wilderness". Also, depending on the terrian, trails are the only way to travel. Many hiking (or multi-use) areas do not allow "off trail" travel so please check first.

Whether or not the animals are used to human presence treat them with the same respect, they are not domesticated! And yes, while the ones used to human activity can have slightly different behaviour they are still wild animals. Never forget, human laws don't apply out there you are just part of the "food and suvival chain" at it's most basic level.

I do agree that the risk for animal attacks is generally low providing you have basic wilderness knowledge and you don't provoke them. You do still have to accept an encounter might occur and your actions could play a big role in the outcome. I'll tell you that even though I'm at ease with black bears I was startled for a second (heart rate and adrenaline spiked) by the grizzly that walked out of the bush behind me going to the lake for a drink. I did keep my cool and just continued to walk away, the bear didn't care I was there.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Just because there are trails doesn't mean you're not "in the wilderness". Also, depending on the terrian, trails are the only way to travel. Many hiking (or multi-use) areas do not allow "off trail" travel so please check first.
> 
> Whether or not the animals are used to human presence treat them with the same respect, they are not domesticated! And yes, while the ones used to human activity can have slightly different behaviour they are still wild animals. Never forget, human laws don't apply out there you are just part of the "food and suvival chain" at it's most basic level.
> 
> I do agree that the risk for animal attacks is generally low providing you have basic wilderness knowledge and you don't provoke them. You do still have to accept an encounter might occur and your actions could play a big role in the outcome. I'll tell you that even though I'm at ease with black bears I was startled for a second (heart rate and adrenaline spiked) by the grizzly that walked out of the bush behind me going to the lake for a drink. I did keep my cool and just continued to walk away, the bear didn't care I was there.


True wilderness is by definition an area without any kind of 'path' cainvest. Being in an area without any kind of disturbance made by humans at all including trails. 








Definition of WILDERNESS


a tract or region uncultivated and uninhabited by human beings; an area essentially undisturbed by human activity together with its naturally developed life community; an empty or pathless area or region… See the full definition




www.merriam-webster.com





You can if you like call an area with trails but little else, 'semi-wilderness' but it is not 'true wilderness.' I have backpacked both the Appalachian Trail and the Pacific Crest Trail in segments and while some parts are quite remote, nevertheless, large numbers of people walk them every year. THREE MILLION hikers walk on the AT each year. There is no part of any trail that does not see multiple hikers walk over it.

When people walk a trail and camp in designated campsites or campsites that are not 'designated' but are natural stopping places, they leave behind their 'spoor'. They urinate, defecate, leave trash, discard food, even thrown out dishwater and toothpaste spittings are attractive to bears. All of this means bears become habituated to humans and associate trails and campsites with places to go back to repeatedly to look for food as well as meaning they lose their natural fear of the 'unknown' which they have in 'true wilderness'. In other words, bears found along trails and campsites do not behave in the same way as a bear that scents or sees a human for the first time in its life in true wilderness.

As for there being places you can only travel by trail, poppycock. If that were true, then how did the first people in any given area travel when there were no trails to follow? You are simply talking about the degree of 'difficulty' in travelling on a trail vs. off a trail. On a trip to Pukaskwa National Park, a group of 6 of us planned to do an off-trail backpacking trip of 6 days following a triangular route that would cover 60km. On day 2, we realized that having only covered 15 km. of our planned route, we would not be able to cover the 60km in 6 days and had to change our route and head directly for our end point. What we had not known as no one had been to Pukaskwa before, was the density and difficulty of travel due to the vegetation. No trails simply means how FAR you will be able to travel will vary. Trails allow you to travel faster but they do not allow you to experience true wilderness. Off trail you can expect your speed to half but you can camp on the side of a lake where you can tell yourself that you may well be the first person that has ever camped beside that lake.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Not sure where you're going with this "true wilderness" BS LTA or what the point of it is. BTW, James is going hiking on trails in BC/Alberta to help keep you on topic.

I think a key distinction is whether or not the animals are _regularly fed_ by humans (usually from garbage areas or campsites) or not. A bear having the occasional "snicker's bar" dropped on a remote trail is not going to change it's primary behaviour and 99.99% of people will never encounter an adult animal that hasn't seen or had some indirect contact with humans, especially in most of Canada's parks. 

Anyways, I'm off to the wilderness again today, maybe I'll go off trail to experience this "true wilderness" you speak of ... kind of like Narnia is it?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> Not sure where you're going with this "true wilderness" BS LTA or what the point of it is. BTW, James is going hiking on trails in BC/Alberta to help keep you on topic.
> 
> I think a key distinction is whether or not the animals are _regularly fed_ by humans (usually from garbage areas or campsites) or not. A bear having the occasional "snicker's bar" dropped on a remote trail is not going to change it's primary behaviour and 99.99% of people will never encounter an adult animal that hasn't seen or had some indirect contact with humans, especially in most of Canada's parks.
> 
> Anyways, I'm off to the wilderness again today, maybe I'll go off trail to experience this "true wilderness" you speak of ... kind of like Narnia is it?


That's OK cainvest, some things are just beyond some people's ability to comprehend.

What I am suggesting to James4beach is that if he has a fear of bears, the best way to avoid them is to avoid going where bears have become habituated to humans. When several people tell him in the same day that they have seen a bear in the area, THAT is a place where bears have no doubt become habituated to humans and so is a place to avoid.

You can just carry on hiking in such places and perhaps have a fourth encounter with a bear within 10 feet of you and tell us how that went. Meanwhile, I will hopefully continue to never come within a 100 yards of a bear by avoiding busy trails and designated campsites.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Well, there was just a bear at the edge of my neighbouring community (I live in a larger city). It was sighted from my friends backyard. It wasn’t bothering any one other than its so close to the people. Unfortunately, this may the bear Same beat that was walking around the ravine last fall. Fish and wildlife has been called.

i guess I should move deep In the middle of the forests where there are no humans, if I was afraid of bears.  Or in my case, I will take being smart around any bear siting. It could happen almost anywhere.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> That's OK cainvest, some things are just beyond some people's ability to comprehend.


Definitely agree with that. Like taking bear advice from someone who has only seen one bear from a far distance in all their "supposed back country" travels ... ya, that's good idea, lol. Might as well ask "city slickers" at the zoo for bear advice.



Longtimeago said:


> What I am suggesting to James4beach is that if he has a fear of bears, the best way to avoid them is to avoid going where bears have become habituated to humans. When several people tell him in the same day that they have seen a bear in the area, THAT is a place where bears have no doubt become habituated to humans and so is a place to avoid.


So basically you're saying don't go hiking anywhere in the wilderness with regular human activity and/or seen a bear before. Ya, good luck with that! Bears are everwhere in the wilderness so chance encounters could happen but they generally pose very little threat to humans. Get over the fear, be outdoor smart, go out and enjoy the hike like millions of others do every day without incident.



Longtimeago said:


> You can just carry on hiking in such places and perhaps have a fourth encounter with a bear within 10 feet of you and tell us how that went. Meanwhile, I will hopefully continue to never come within a 100 yards of a bear by avoiding busy trails and designated campsites.


And I will, was out in the forest for three hours yesterday. Didn't see any bears but did pass a single mtn biker on the trail. Another beautiful day in the forest.

I guess you also wouldn't believe the story of my friends (while we were on a back country canoe trip) saving a young moose stuck in the shallow end of a lake with a bear pacing on the shore right? We didn't either when we all met up later to camp for the night, thought it was a total BS story on why they were late. A week later the pictures and story showed up in the Winnpeg Sun newspaper.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Three hours, wow. ROTFLMAO.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> Three hours, wow. ROTFLMAO.


Better than your three hours in your armchair ... you're funny!


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Well its snowing here in Banff as I speak...no bears yet...only a bunch of elk. I'll try again tomorrow.


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## ludetuner (Dec 28, 2016)

Travel in groups. 
Make noise.
Carry bear spray. 
Know what to do when you encounter a bear

if you’re talking about North Van, unfortunately there are more bear encounters than there need to be because many people don’t respect the wilderness and leave garbage and food around.

there’s a video of a black bear that went up to a woman on a paved trail in Coquitlam a couple of weeks ago and took a “curious swipe” at her. Have a look at that video, clearly that people is used to being around humans


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.

If someone is hiking in places where they supposedly come within 10 FEET of a bear 3 TIMES, I would suggest that fits the definition.

Avoiding bear encounters is not that difficult. Just don't go where bears have become habituated to people. That means don't go where a lot of people are likely to go. ie. on trails and designated campsites.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Longtimeago said:


> One definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
> 
> If someone is hiking in places where they supposedly come within 10 FEET of a bear 3 TIMES, I would suggest that fits the definition.
> 
> Avoiding bear encounters is not that difficult. Just don't go where bears have become habituated to people. That means don't go where a lot of people are likely to go. ie. on trails and designated campsites.


So basically what you're saying to millions of people is "stay home and hide under yor bed" instead of going out on local hiking trails? Do you suggest all the people using the Coquitlam trail (mentioned above) shouldn't go there anymore?

BTW, I expect the same outcome with future "close proximity" bear encounters, they will not pose a threat to me so it's clearly not a different result. Logic is obviously not your strong point but then again with your "armchair advice" on bears it's not surprising you're grasping for a reaction.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm still heading out hiking. Now I've got the bear spray holster (strapped to backpack) plus a Fox 40 whistle.

I've also watched a few videos on bear encounters. It seems like using the human voice is the best bet. Speak, talk firmly, shoo them off. In the *unlikely* case that they persist, then probably give them a whistle blast and talk more firmly.

In case they still follow you or charge, then you've got a bad situation ... three blasts on the whistle as a call for help, and the bear repellent comes out.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> ...
> Speak, talk firmly, shoo them off. In the *unlikely* case that they persist, then probably give them a whistle blast and talk more firmly.
> 
> In case they still follow you or charge, then you've got a bad situation ... three blasts on the whistle as a call for help, and the bear repellent comes out.


Yes, but don't resort to bad language. Bears see that as a sign of an impoverished vocabulary, which annoys them. Appeal to their sense of decency and fair play. Offer some _quid pro quo _to a bear that seems unreasonable. Like a week's free use of your swimming pool. A bushel of apples. A foam mattress for its winter den. You get the idea.

Never forget BLM. That does not stand for burning, looting and murder, but for Bears' Lives Matter. Do not call the authorities, whatever you do. They will come out and execute the bear, declaring it a nuisance, habituated to humans. I'll bet there are more humans on the planet than bears. Bears cause little pollution or destruction of other creatures or their habitat. So, if the bear or the human has to be shot, who should take the bullet?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Another bear seen yesterday, not be me but the one who was leading our group of five people at the time. Typical response, it ran away.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Another bear seen yesterday, not be me but the one who was leading our group of five people at the time. Typical response, it ran away.


Finished some hiking myself ... didn't see any bears, but it turned out the path was more popular than I expected. Lots of people, lots of bear-repelling noise.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I did pedal thru a large pile of black bear scat this morning...wanted to post the pic here but had no phone along. All black...no berries, very greasy...needs more fiber less tourists imo.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eder said:


> I did pedal thru a large pile of black bear scat this morning...wanted to post the pic here but had no phone along. All black...no berries, very greasy...needs more fiber less tourists imo.


Yeah sounds like they need more berries and veggies


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here's my setup ... made an easy-access holster for the bear spray. Just in case of bears and cougars!

And though it's a bit bulky, the bear spray actually held on pretty well in this position. I had to do some climbing over rocks, and the holster wasn't a problem.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Here's my setup ... made an easy-access holster for the bear spray. Just in case of bears and cougars!
> 
> And though it's a bit bulky, the bear spray actually held on pretty well in this position. I had to do some climbing over rocks, and the holster wasn't a problem.
> 
> View attachment 20618


Well if the cougars don't buy you at least one drink ... oh, wait .... you're talking about the other ones! 

Question though ... that nylon zip-tie on the trigger going to delay you from using it?
I understand you don't want to accidentally fire it off but ...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> Well if the cougars don't buy you at least one drink ... oh, wait .... you're talking about the other ones!


That's funny, reminds me of the old 'cougar bars' in Winnipeg



cainvest said:


> Question though ... that nylon zip-tie on the trigger going to delay you from using it?
> I understand you don't want to accidentally fire it off but ...


Good question. That zip tie you see only connects the safety release to the handle, to prevent the safety plastic from falling onto the ground. It does not stop you from arming & firing.

When you buy the canister, there is a second zip tie which locks up the whole mechanism and you must remove that first.

If buying this, I recommend buying the two canister package which comes with the training canister. They are identical canisters, same mechanisms and zip ties, but one has no active ingredient. That really helped me get familiar with the whole thing.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

It does look a little bulky but if it doesn't interfere then no problems. I know my brother has carried bear bangers (believe it was required in a rocky mountain ultramarathon he does) but don't think he has ever used it, much smaller though.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)




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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I lost count of bears during my cross-Canada-Alaska-US wild camping excursion

Bears who rarely see humans seemed to wait to catch a glimpse of me before running away. Those were probably the brave ones who stayed long enough for me to spot them leaving. I managed my bear "attractants" very diligently and never had an encounter while wild camping

Along the Icefields Parkway I came to a traffic jam of people taking pictures of bears including teenage girls taking selfies with their backs to the bears. These are bears that are habituated to humans. Same with the grizzlies in Denali - you can get very close and they will ignore you but it's ill advised!

The worst was camping in established sites because there's always someone mishandling attractants and I'm usually the only one not in a RV


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Sounds like a great trip...we wanted to take the rv up this summer but even northern BC was closed to us...did you have trouble crossing into Alaska? Did anyone key your car?


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

If venturing into bear country, just take your cat along. You'll be okay.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Otherwise...


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Eder said:


> Sounds like a great trip...we wanted to take the rv up this summer but even northern BC was closed to us...did you have trouble crossing into Alaska? Did anyone key your car?


I went NW in 2018 and SE in 2019. Haven't traveled very far from the house this summer. I can run on the empty beaches because the parking lots are closed though.

Planning to through-hike Vermont this fall but logistics are more complicated


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> I lost count of bears during my cross-Canada-Alaska-US wild camping excursion
> 
> Bears who rarely see humans seemed to wait to catch a glimpse of me before running away. Those were probably the brave ones who stayed long enough for me to spot them leaving. I managed my bear "attractants" very diligently and never had an encounter while wild camping
> 
> ...


I had one tent I used for perhaps 10 years or more. That tent never had one item of interest to a bear in it, ever. Not one candy bar, bag of gorp, etc. ever. Designated campsites are by far the worst place to have to camp if you want to avoid bears. People leave garbage etc. that attracts bears and habituates them to human spoor. 

If someone has an encounter with a bear, they are doing something wrong.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

In the Jasper campground, we heard a commotion and discovered there was a young bear trapped in the garbage bin. We collabortated to get it out and it left post-haste. The fact the bin was near the womens' washroom contributed to the annunciation of its presence.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

james4beach said:


> Here's my setup ... made an easy-access holster for the bear spray. Just in case of bears and cougars!
> 
> And though it's a bit bulky, the bear spray actually held on pretty well in this position. I had to do some climbing over rocks, and the holster wasn't a problem.
> 
> View attachment 20618


I'm still using a rig like this. I also carry a knife. One of the stories I encountered when reading about bear attacks was this one. It's really insane



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/grizzly-attack-1.5233841



This guy Colin Dowler was attacked by a grizzly. The bear grabbed him, and bit through his arm, foot, and thigh. Miraculously he was able to get to his knife, and started stabbing the bear in the neck. The bear let go.

Then the guy drags himself back to his bicycle, somehow gets ON the bike and starts riding away. He bikes 7 km and finds help!

I later found out that Dowler is my friend's cousin. I was talking with my friend tonight and she says Dowler is doing OK. He's going through rehab and learning to walk again. He lost a lot of the muscle on his thigh. But he's in good spirits, optimistic.

So do I look stupid with my bear spray, whistle, and knife? Yes maybe but I'll do anything that helps avoid that situation. It happened to my friend's cousin.


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