# Alternative Investments



## ace_geekster (Apr 3, 2011)

A thread all about alternative investments.

Please post about:

- Information and websites that covers the world of alternative investments
- Views on MICs, Farmland Inv. Funds, Hedge Funds, Private Equity Funds, Venture Capital Funds, etc...
- Your current alternative investments and how you feel about them
- Anything else alternative investment related

Thanks!

Joel


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## tendim (Nov 18, 2010)

ace_geekster said:


> - Information and websites that covers the world of alternative investments
> - Views on MICs, Farmland Inv. Funds, Hedge Funds, Private Equity Funds, Venture Capital Funds, etc...
> - Your current alternative investments and how you feel about them
> - Anything else alternative investment related


I don't have any currently, but one area I would like to get into is the stamp market via Stanley Gibbons. The last time I checked the minimum investment was upwards of $10,000 though (or was it 10,000 pounds?).


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## ace_geekster (Apr 3, 2011)

Stamps are definitely interesting. It appears that you can either do a lump-sum investment of a minimum of 10,000₤ or start with a minimum of 1000₤ and continue with 100₤ monthly contributions thereafter. Obviously the exposure to the ₤ (GBP) would be of note.

Personally, I currently own some TimberCreek MIC T.TMC and Firm Capital MIC T.FC. They're publicly traded Mortgage Investment Corporations. They pay out monthly interest payments and are currently yielding 8% per annum. Drips are available for both. TimberCreek specifically allows you to reinvest at 5% below market rate.

A Lynx Equity loan is the next alternative investment that I’m looking at. They currently offer a locked-in loan program: 1-year loan at 12%, 2-year at 13% and 3-year at 14%. These rates are per annum paid out monthly. They have appeared on BNN in the past. Has anyone invested with them? Any other debt related investments that you can suggest?


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## Barwelle (Feb 23, 2011)

You could invest in my lemonade stand!


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Barwelle said:


> You could invest in my lemonade stand!


you should be on Dragon's Den


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Hi:

One can buy raw land in the boonies of Ontario for $500-$1000/acre. This is the stuff not on water, hilly, poor for agriculture, but most excellent at growing trees.

Take $20,000 and buy some of this land. If you have a little more money, set a trailer on the land, otherwise tent it. Visit a half dozen or dozen times a year to vacation and do a little work improving the stand. Hardwood veneer logs are worth thousands. If you know what you are doing, a bit lucky, and have a 50 year time horizon, money could be made.

In the intervening years you can harvest and sell firewood, if you are lucky, get a few sawlog harvests too, and have your own park.

hboy43


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

hboy43 said:


> In the intervening years you can harvest and sell firewood, if you are lucky, get a few sawlog harvests too, and have your own park.


Or just live in the trailer and get rid of your mortgage once and for all.
If you have 10+ acres of land, why live in a cramped 2,000 sq. ft. house and a $350K mortgage.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

lemonade & lumber sound good.
fire & water.

vines & wines would be nice, though.
need to lug all the rocks into terraces on a sunny slope w southern exposure.
then plant the vines on em.
the stones will hold the heat through an extra month in chilly canadian autumn weather & maybe produce for the grandchildren half a century later un bon vin du terroir.

(royal ml: terroir is not a puppy  )


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Hi:
> 
> One can buy *raw land in the boonies* of Ontario for $500-$1000/acre.


It definitely sounds like an awesome property investment. 

I didn't realize it could be that inexpensive; you actually gave me food for thought hboy!

*@humble:* mort de rire.


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## ddkay (Nov 20, 2010)

Is ICX a good place to start? Where do people usually shop for land? Aren't you really at the mercy of planners that decide to designate a particular use to your land?


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## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

Toronto Gal et al : Farmland you say ? Think twice maybe. I own a 100 acre farm that is quickly going back to forest. I have harvested plenty of hardwood and poplar off it but it isn't the value pyramid you might think. There are many surrounding properties that are in the same boat. Many are being bought up by the Menonites but they don't really do anything much with it that increases its value rather they take pride in keeping it like my farm was 50 years ago. Also the winter snow machine riders , hunters , dirtbikers and other assorted cretins etc . think they have squatters rights on unoccupied lands . And taxes aren't cheap. I might spend more time living on it and buying a dozer to clear it but the cost of the divorce would be prohibitive . Anyway to each his own . Will I sell it ? No but only because it was homesteaded by my grandfather.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

It's just a thought for the future, but thanks very much for your informative post & for the warning!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

dogleg there must be thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of canadians who'd give their eye teeth for a heritage farm homesteaded by the grandfather. You've got a jewel there, please don't even think of complaining.

why are you letting it revert to forest ? folks i know w country land always lend it out - sometimes even rent it out - to farmers who hay the fields regularly so as to keep the tree growth down. Often the arrangement is that farmer plows driveways in winter & watches over property when owners are absent in return for use of the land (ps such farmer has got a great deal, considering the cost of land.)

do you still have the original farmhouse ? it would be a historic treasure. What about the original farm tools, are they still out in the barns & sheds. These are valuable antiques now. People & museums have been collecting antique tools for more than a quarter-century. Is that an old 19th century three-legged milk stool w original paint covered w cobwebs in the lean-to ... think three hundred & fifty bucks ...

if you've still got the original homestead, any chance you & family could set it up as a b & b, to help pay for the maintenance & repair costs. Which, alas, could be considerable.


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## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

Humble : Your reply is interesting. Yes I am sentimentally attached to this property ; I was born in the farmhouse and lived in it until I started school. Most of the old artifacts have been given to the regional museum so they will be preserved and are always available to enjoy. There are many farms in this area in the same boat so there is very little demand for the fields for growing crops. I did rent it out for pasture some years back . One summer my son helped me clear the fields of tag alders but it is a never-ending job impossible to keep up with short of running a herd of goats. The barn fell down because the foundation crumbled but some buildings like hen house, pig pen , granary, wood shed, butcher floor etc are still not bad but won't last forever. The main feature I enjoy is a waterfall that tumbles year round. Hopefully one day one of my two boys might decide to live on it part time. I still have the original hand-written title. Hope I haven't bored you . I tell my kids it is their link to Canada's past but I'm not too sure how impressed they are by that. But you are right I am lucky to own it. Now to get rid of the damned trespassers! They shot a beautiful deer last fall and broke in and dressed it in my woodshed . Go figure. Cheers.


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## tombiosis (Dec 18, 2010)

Sounds like a great farm...but with all due respect, not all hunters are tresspassers. I have traded chores for land access in the past, helping out an old farmer who allowed me the privilidge of spending some qualitytime in his woods. I did some fence repair with him, and helped with the cows a few times. When I was lucky enough to harvest a beautiful buck with my bow, the delicious meat was enjoyed by both our families.
I certainly can understand your frustration with trespassers. I would suggest you find a RESPONSIBLE bowhunter to act as a steward for your land, keeping you abreast of any suspicious activities...who knows, you may be surprised!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

yes it certainly does sound like a marvellous storybook farm. And you've got a beautiful year-round waterfall, which means a fast-running stream ... so perhaps you are at least partially on a slope ... with lovely views ...

i'm not sure what to make of the other district farms that are "in the same boat." Except that i realize most family farms are not economic, so many small farmers & their wives often take outside jobs as well. What i'd meant about getting neighbouring farmers to cut the hay was just a suggestion to keep the brush cut back. In most of the arrangements i'm familiar with, the absentee landowner doesn't really "rent" his land even for haying because the farmers' services in exchange - plowing snow out of driveways & running year-round surveillance over the land - are considered to be significantly valuable.

it's understandable that you want to keep the property for your sons, of course. But i hope you don't mind my saying that it seems you need a hand now. A country farm property is a colossal amount of work.

might you be able to consider a 10-year plan - or a 15-year or 20-year plan - to manage the farm as a going concern, with some kind of help. This would secure enough time for your sons to decide whether they would like to take on the ancestral homestead or whether - sad though it may seem - in the end the property may have to be sold to a stranger.

however, that decision is still a number of years away, and in the meantime a buffer plan to look after the property could keep it going.

there are a lot of ideas to be investigated imho. At the very least, you would need better surveillance and someone to mow the fields & pastures for hay at least twice each summer. A responsible hunter or fisherman - if you have fish in the stream - or both could be a help. The more friendly presences you can have out on your land year round, the safer it will be from what sound like near-vandals.

at the other extreme, you could commence inquiring at agricultural & veterinary colleges. You might want to investigate what kind of arrangement could attract a motivated young farmer with a family to settle on your property & start up farm operations once again. I've read that specialty organic farmers are finally able, now, to run profitable operations.

there would be a lot of complicated issues to decide. I won't go into them now, but they would have to do with the rewards that a normally ambitious & capable young farmer would expect. He might want to work towards ownership of half the land, for example. And in the meantime he'd probably want to live in the farmhouse ... a veterinarian, on the other hand, or anybody with an outside rural job (hydro line repairman, etc) would be more likely to farm as a domestic add-on enterprise, so perhaps would be more willing to merely rent for a number of years.

i'm glad the antique tools are safe in the county museum, they are really quite valuable.

best of luck with this situation. It's not boring in the least. It's part of the history & soul of canada. Please also make time to start documenting, with photos, your grandparents' lives, your parents on the farm, your memories of your own childhood. It's a website work-in-progress !


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## Argonaut (Dec 7, 2010)

I can relate to dogleg, as I had mentioned before my family has a couple thousand acres of agricultural land. Those that seem to be most intrigued with investing in this area are those that speculate on theory and not practice. On a strictly monetary definition, what you spend on a ranch or farm is not even close to being worth the amount of time you put in. It's a different sort of investing I think, investing in your own character.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

some small farms are going concerns.

susie gibbs is a former TV producer who gave up on gotham & became a shepherdess.

her virginia farm raises exotic sheep & goats for their wool, which she sells in a variety of innovative ways. (To understand the econ of this, one has to be aware that knitting is now a fast-growing underground cult. Yup. Knitting. And knitting with expensive specialty hand-dyed hand-spun yarns like suzie's is way out in front as the It Knit vanguard.)

here is suzie's website where lambs are being born this very minute. Check out her lambcam 3, it has a couple of wobbly 2-hour old baby rams that can barely stand.

http://www.fiberfarm.com/blog

of course, susie has several modalities up her well-purled sleeve to keep her juniper moon farm operation running in the black.

she takes in paying guests & is not sheepish about charging an arm & a leg.

and ex-TV producer that she is, susie's blog carries plenty of artful 3rd party advertising & is undoubtedly a profit centre in its own right, to say nothing of being followed by thousands of adoring viewers who buy suzie's wool, travel in herds to her twice-annual shearing festivals & worship the farm animals like little jesus manger babies.


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## dogleg (Feb 5, 2010)

Wow ! When I told Toronto Gal that rural farm property might not be the best investment I had no idea this topic would expand into a discussion on keeping our rural heritage alive. I am pleasantly surprised there is so much interest. The Virginia sheep farm is interesting but is a full-time job. I want to keep my farm from going back to the forest it was when my grandfather got title but I can't live on it full-time. Recently I have looked into the possibility of turning it into a wind farm . It might make economic sense but I know the Menonites would hate it and it does go against the traditions of the community. Anyway we shall see. Sheep are great animals and the young ones love to play; we raised hundreds of them but believe me shearing is a back breaking job. Thanks for all the ideas and good luck to all.


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## Toronto.gal (Jan 8, 2010)

dogleg said:


> 1. Wow ! When I told Toronto Gal that rural farm property might not be the best investment I had no idea this topic would expand into a discussion on keeping our rural heritage alive.
> 
> 2. Recently I have looked into the possibility of turning it into a wind farm.
> 
> 3. Sheep are great animals and the young ones love to play; we raised hundreds of them but believe me shearing is a back breaking job. Thanks for all the ideas and good luck to all.


1. Thanks in large part to humble's clever writing style; always entertaining, informative, thought provoking & witty!

2. Wind farms sound even more complicated & technical to me; I have to admit that I don't know much about this subject, but always thought that a very large space was required for them. I read this while looking for some pictures:

*Planning a Wind Farm*

The success of wind farms depend upon the location selected to set them up. Hence, location planning is an important task while building up a wind farm. Wind power density is an important consideration while selecting an area for wind parks. Annual power density is taken into account before finalizing the location. Some of the other factors that can help in selection of a site of wind farm include:

General wind speed in the area, calculated using anemometers and other setups *[I guess not a problem in windy Chicago].* 

Altitude or the height of the area above the sea level.

Possible obstructions like trees and buildings.

Area available, so that enough distances can be maintained among various wind turbines.

Ease of installing power grid, so that the power produced can be transported to desirable places.

Wind farms can pose threat to migratory birds and bats and thus, these concerns also contribute towards the selection of their sites. 

3. Indeed, they are so adorable, gentle & intelligent too! 

Good luck to you too dogled & again, thanks for your comments!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

dog keeping rural heritage alive is a growing fringe movement but i doubt it'll reach this forum because it doesn't pay enuf, at least not so far 

in france they understand the importance of history both for the nation's glory & for the tourism dollar. They smartly put railroads underneath or around villages so as to leave the medieval quartiers & the 14th century cathedrals intact. A lot of canada's early history was farming, fishing, fur trade & lumber. I truly believe we should labour to keep these vestiges alive.

re your farm: i know you would never raise sheep or any other livestock because you'd need a resident flock manager. I just mentioned susan gibbs as an example of an organic fringe farm that has become a howling success. Others are raising organic vegetables, berries, bees, goldenseal, ginseng, herbs, emus or grapes ... but all these crops require a resident farmer on the property.

i didn't think of a wind farm. Now this is an idea that might fly. Is your land configured so that the turbines could be out of sight & out of earshot. This has meant success for boralex at its large aeolian power facility on the seigneurie de beaupré east of quebec city. The turbine clusters are hidden away on the vast lands belonging to the grand séminaire, so no one sees or hears anything.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

hboy43 said:


> Hi:
> 
> One can buy raw land in the boonies of Ontario for $500-$1000/acre. This is the stuff not on water, hilly, poor for agriculture, but most excellent at growing trees.


Where can you find land this cheap? Does it have road access? I am always curious about cheap land.


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

Addy said:


> Where can you find land this cheap? Does it have road access? I am always curious about cheap land.


North Hastings County. Try a Bancroft realtor. Probably plenty of other places too, but this is my area and 20+ acre parcels are available in this price range all the time.

Af far as farm land goes, I specifically was not recommending it. Now you are talking $2000 acre plus for anything that is even modestly good.

If one wants to farm, I suggest a community supported agriculture scenario is the way to go. You need to sell at premium retail prices from your gate, or the farmer's market down the road. You probably want to be organic to collect maximum prices, without being certified organic and collecting maximum government oversight. You of course won't be able to say that you are organic, but if you are selling to your neighbours and they can see your operation in person, they will read between the lines. No wholesaling or shipping product anywhere. Marketing must come before farming.

hboy43


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## Quotealex (Aug 1, 2010)

Paitings and antique furnitures are my favourite alternative investments because I get to enjoy it every day. I also like gold and silver bullion because they are fairly easy to exchange for cash anonymously.


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