# Clear Creek, Ontario



## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

I just came back from visiting My Brother there, and if there is any suggestion of Wind Mills in your area, fight them as much as you can.

They are noisy, totally disruptive to your health, and you will not be able to give your House away.

People have to sleep at relatives homes, the noise is so bad.

Garbage to all those who say they do not affect the wildlife, they are severely disruptive to birds, they just chop them to pieces.

The Liberals LIE, will do nothing to help the homeowners, dispute all their claims.

Forewarned is Forearmed.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

There are some windmills near my parent's house. We went by to check them out. I couldn't hear a damned thing--they were not almost-silent, they were silent.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

andrewf, the ones I visited , and one is right across the road, make a continuous whooshing sound.

The ones you saw, were the arms moving, maybe they were shut down?

Logic says that if you wave something as large as a windmills arms thorugh air, you must creat air turbulence, from this turbulence the noise is generated.

A factor might also be their size, maybe the ones you saw were on a mini golf course?


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## Ihatetaxes (May 5, 2010)

There are several near my family cottage on the Bruce Penninsula but not close enough to hear anything. I like them as when I see them I know I am only 5 minutes from a cold beer.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Here in Chatham-Kent, we have hundreds of them, and they are noisy, and they are big, and they are unsightly.

One thing I've discovered, is that it depends how many there are. We have a small cluster of 5 about 3 km away. I can see them, but I can't here them. it's no big deal as it's just one area. About 10 km away, I have a friend that is surrounded by them, and there is no escaping. Everywhere you look, there they are.

Something that does help is trees. Plant lots of them, they mask noise and block sight. Even smallish trees that don't block views do mask the noise.

Politics aside, I don't like them, and I don't know a lot of rural folks that do.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> andrewf, the ones I visited , and one is right across the road, make a continuous whooshing sound.
> 
> The ones you saw, were the arms moving, maybe they were shut down?
> 
> ...


They were moving. There was a moderate breeze, and we were upwind. We were within a couple hundred meters, and closer than the closest house.

They are, I believe, 1.5 MW units located in Lowbanks/Wainfleet, Ontario.

As with everything else, I'd like to see some empirical evidence of harmful effects. People complain about all kinds of things causing ill-health, including hydro lines and cell towers. Some of it is just placebo. I don't know how people could be that disturbed by a low noise when many people can happily live in cities, next to rail lines, busy streets, etc.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

Here you go, Andrew - lots of information here: http://www.coalcares.org/

(p.s. It's a spoof.)


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

Wainfleet! 

Home sweet home on the Feeder Canal.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

Money Gal that link is hilarious!...

As for health effects from living near tubines I doubt it's any worse then the background noise in a city or the the drone from living near a busy highway or train tracks..(there's over a 100 of the things just outside of town here)...Curious though most of the wind farms are owned by oil/gas companies hoping to offset there Carbon footprint....but more so to take advantage of the big subsidies and contracts that the Ontario gov is offering to buy the power which is the only reason it's profitable. Whether they look ugly or are not will always be a matter of opinion I'm just used them now and don't really think about it anymore.


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## MoneyGal (Apr 24, 2009)

From the site:

*Wind Kills*

Wind turbines can kill up to 70,000 birds per year, or 4.27 birds per turbine per year. Coal particulate pollution, on the other hand, kills fewer than 13,000 people per year.

And also:

*Why are "scrubbers" not a good solution?*

Some environmentalists have suggested that coal companies should install an untested technology called "scrubbers" atop coal plants to make them burn more cleanly, reducing coal particulate exposure as one cause of childhood asthma. There are two problems with this idea. For one thing, these "scrubbers" will by no means remove enough of the coal particulates to avoid causing asthma. More importantly, the "scrubbers" are very expensive, and would inevitably result in a rise in the price of energy—hammering already hammered American household budgets. *Locating the filtering mechanism at the point of consumption (i.e., your child's mouth) is dramatically more cost-effective than locating it at the point of emission (smokestacks), and in turn means less need for intrusive and costly regulation.*


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

Just FTI, tall buildings in Toronto kill 1-10 million birds a year.. http://www.flap.org/lot.htm


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Jungle said:


> Just FTI, tall buildings in Toronto kill 1-10 million birds a year.. http://www.flap.org/lot.htm


Not to mention the hundreds of millions of songbirds killed by house cats each year. Estimates run from 78 million per year in the UK to 150 million per year just in one U.S. state (Wisconsin).

Sheesh, if you tally up the toll from windmills, skyscrapers, and housecats, can there be any songbirds left?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Bird deaths are a specious argument for prohibiting windmills. On those grounds, we need to ban cats, windows and power lines as well.









http://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Bird deaths are a specious argument for prohibiting windmills. On those grounds, we need to ban cats, windows and power lines as well.


Wow, Windows kills all those birds? Yet another good reason to use a Mac.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

We should ban Thanksgiving and Christmas and save all those Turkeys.

The residents of Clear Creek have a petition of almost 1,000 signatures spelling out their claims, the Minister of the Environment dismissed them.

A House that was originally listed for $580,000 on the waterfront, after three years sold for $180,000.

The andrews of the world can trot out their figures, and figures can lie and liars can figure, but the stark reality is that windmills are a politicians sop to a few agressive greenies that destroy your health and your property value.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I'm Howard said:


> the stark reality is that windmills are a politicians sop to a few agressive greenies that destroy your health and your property value.


I could point you to thousands of farmers who would disagree vehemently with you. Farmers who lease wind rights on their land to utilities are bringing in typically $3,000 to $4,000 annually per turbine, while each turbine requires only about 1/2 acre of space, leaving the rest available for agriculture. See for example http://www.windustry.com/news/windustry-newsletter-spring-2001. Since the article was written, a wind turbine factory set up shop in the area to serve all the farmers who were clamoring to have turbines installed on their land, and the factory created 300 new jobs in the community. 

At least one study in Ontario has found no effect on rural property values based on proximity to wind farms: http://www.canwea.ca/pdf/talkwind/PropertyValuesConsultingReportFebruary42010.pdf although note that this study was prepared for a wind energy advocacy organization so you probably won't believe its conclusions.


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## SixesAndSevens (Dec 4, 2009)

the Stonehenge were ancient windmills for generating energy.
look what happened to that civilization.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I will believe windmills as an energy source when they are installed where the MPs live. Until then I am a sceptic.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i am not quoting (would really like my gold star please.) But windows mega-killing birds so we should buy macs is hilarious 

i would be happy to know more about how these turbines sound in the country. Sometimes sound carries in odd or unexpected ways, in the country.

there are high-pitched sounds that humans can't hear but animals can. When i'm in an environment that has one or more of these i can feel it. When the sound stops, there's a palpable feeling of relief, of pressure dropping slightly. I would definitely not want to live in a place where turbines produce this kind of sound 24/365 but i could never turn it off.

an extremely beautiful sound effect in the country occurs when one stands on a hillside overlooking a broad valley at dawn or dusk, when all is hushed. From across the valley one can often hear a dog barking or a car engine starting, even though the dog or car is 6 kilometres away.

i incline to think that opposition to turbines now includes a near-hysterical element. But i'd really like to hear more, from all kinds of country residents.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

pie, you get your gold star in the form of a reply from me. 

I've heard the windmills in farm country and there is a definite perpetual quiet woosh sound. Is it high pitched squeel or irritating like a crying baby or roaring traffic? Certainly not. Did the country sound as you describe, before? Certainly. There is a difference. When you live in the country you certainly get used to the quiet and any added noise causes one to question where that's coming from. Best way to describe is a low, quiet, constant humm IMO.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

kcowan said:


> I will believe windmills as an energy source when they are installed where the MPs live. Until then I am a sceptic.


Don't MPs, by definition, live across the country?


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> The andrews of the world can trot out their figures, and figures can lie and liars can figure,


Call me a liar if you like. You strike me as a crotchety old 'get off my lawn' type. If you have facts rather than anecdotes, bring it.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

andrewf said:


> Don't MPs, by definition, live across the country?


Tell that to Trillium Power! Their right to develop this property (Wind 2) has been withdrawn. Their CEO was interviewed by Amanda Lang yesterday.

Look at current status here.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

No comment is necessary andrew since you know everything anyway and when it comes to my property value, i would rather yours go down than mine, unlike yourself, i do not indulge in ageist or similar discriminatory remarks.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Howard, you called him a liar first. When you make adhominem arguments other people just figure you don't have any facts to back up your claim. 

Andrew did cite a source to back up his position and just because you feel that he is wrong because your emotions tell you so...doesn't mean he is a liar. 

So calling you an old git is just your reward for illogical argument. 

Not in My Backyard is not a new phenomenon. That's why you can't get cell phone reception in Rosedale and Guildwood. People refuse to let the companies put in cell towers. No buildings, no group homes for almost everything you can imagine there is a protest going on not allowing people to build there.


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## I'm Howard (Oct 13, 2010)

Berubeland, I DID NOT, I just repeated an old saying that anyone can make figures work to their own advantage, that is why five Economists using the same stats come out with five differant theories, or why Politicians first come up with a policy then choose the stats to support them.

I said Windmills are noisy, andrew called me a defacto liar by saying they weren't, I have seen a long petition from Clear Creeks residents that say they are, andrew visited someplace where he thought they weren't.

andrew's statement was unsubstantiated, CBC interviewed Clear Creek residents and featured their comments in their news, are they liars too??

Anyhow, I hope they build them is your backyard because they won't build them in mine, although they do want to build them all along the top of Blue Mountains.


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

Well lets fight about it! I'm sure our angry rantings will sway people to our side! The problem is human perception. What is noisy? Do turbines make noise? They sure do. For a mechanical device to not make noise is impossible. Are they noisy? What is your definition? A certain decible level at a certain distance? Or a perception? I've visited homes within 500 metres of a turbine, you can certainly here them. Did it bother me? A little, I grew up in a rural setting. Heck a normal road bothers me, and I'm out of my head in a city. My wife, who grew up in an urban setting, doesn't even notice the sound, and finds country life "too quiet" so two people have very different feelings towards noise. Who is right? How do you choose? More than the noise, I find them visually distracting. On a clear day, you can see a turbine from almost 20km away. And at night, the blinking lights drive me nuts. Again, country upbringing, I'm very senstive to artifical light at night. But not everybody is.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm Howard said:


> I said Windmills are noisy, andrew called me a defacto liar by saying they weren't, I have seen a long petition from Clear Creeks residents that say they are, andrew visited someplace where he thought they weren't.


They're both anecdotes. I never suggested you lied about your perception of windmills. I was stating my perception--they seem fairly harmless.

A petition is not proof of anything--it's just another anecdote. Sounds like NIMBYism more than anything else.


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