# Foreign election interference



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think I've found evidence of foreign interference in our elections.

Today, some American alt right / conspiracy theory web sites started running a fake story about one of the major leaders in a sex scandal. This is on the front page of Zero Hedge, and also another far-right American web site which has already been thoroughly exposed as a source of fake news.

Zero Hedge has been carrying quite a bit of pro-Russian propaganda for a few years. The site frequently carries anti-western and anti-liberal content, and shows a strong Russian bias. Some analysts have suggested that it's a Russian propaganda outlet and a past employee has described the pro-Russian editorial bias.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...behind-zero-hedge-wall-street-s-renegade-blog

Though it isn't the same story, the Russian state's RT is also running a front page story with rather aggressive wording. RT is calling Trudeau "two-faced" and saying he's "betrayed Canada". This kind of wording is highly inflammatory, intended to whip up anger and emotional reactions.

RT also calls Trudeau a "facilitator of US aggression" and "imperialism". This was posted around the same time as the fake news sex scandal hit job posted at the extremist web sites. IMO these criticisms and phrases are way beyond what's acceptable from a foreign source, given the proximity to our election.

To me, this looks like interference in our elections from either the American far right, and/or Russian state.

The only Canadian outlet which propagated this story was Ezra Levant (Rebel Media), who promoted the same fake story by twitter.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Firstly, no one is able to stop foreign sourced material from reaching the eyes and ears of an Internet connected world, especially in a democracy. They can pretty much say what they want about anyone, fact or fiction. I think Canadians, and CMFers in particular, are above the IQ necessary to know what is either far left or far right drivel. No need to get excited.....

Then you decide to try and link the story to Erza Levant and ultimately Hamish Marshall who is no longer part of Rebel Media.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm not linking to any of the fake news stories, nor to Ezra's twitter.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

And you don't think that everyone knows Erza and Rebel Media are mostly off the Richter scale? Not a lot different than the Red Star at the other end.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ok AltaRed, you have convinced me. The other linkage I mentioned was indeed weak, based on nothing other than past work history. Who knows what some of my ex-coworkers are up to these days (maybe they're nuts too).

I don't see any evidence that other domestic parties had anything to do with this.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Thank you. It is important to play fair to be credible, especially in your dual role.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Fair enough. I also edited my follow up posts and removed that speculation about the other linkages and you're welcome to edit your posts too if you prefer.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

James, you said that Ezra Levant was tweeting news of this story based on US media reports. But from what I see, he tweeted it on Oct. 5, while ZeroHedge appears to have reported it Oct. 8 and linked to a Buffalo Chronicle report dated Oct. 7.

You know, I never visit sites like ZH and had never even heard of BC. They are trash. I only did now to try to understand what you are going on about with your conspiracy theories.

You make inflammatory posts as j4b, but can also put on a moderator's 'hat'. I think you need to re-examine that.

Added: for example, you started this thread to try to put some foreign interference spin on an unsubstantiated Trudeau sex scandal, but you shut down and appear to have entirely deleted a thread started yesterday that was about the same subject.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

The article links to the Buffalo Chronicle about an expose that was supposed to come in the Globe and Mail on Saturday and but was suppressed. If true, I would not consider this foreign interference, at least in a negative way. Maybe a foreign scoop.

Now this election is getting very interesting...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The Buffalo Chronicle has been exposed by reporters as a sham operation, with no physical presence, that mostly publishes conspiracy theories.

OnlyMyOpinion: you think what I'm posting here is inflammatory? I said that two foreign news sources are publishing fake, sensationalist news about one of the candidates.

Please explain what I'm writing that is inflammatory.

And are you making the argument that this wasn't foreign interference?


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> The Buffalo Chronicle has been exposed by reporters as a sham operation, with no physical presence, that mostly publishes conspiracy theories.


Well in that case (if the Globe and Mail story is totally bogus) then you are right. This would be (truly) fake new. Now it may be coming from overseas, but could also be from Canadian opponents using a foreign vehicle. It must be investigated. Maybe the G&M could publish a denial.

But somehow it does seem a bit plausible.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

No way that crap is coming from Russia...they like Trudeau and want him in charge to continue destroying our energy businesses. Maybe the Chinese are responsible...or maybe he is not as advertised....we'll see.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think this incident of the allegations appearing in foreign media is quite interesting Topo, which is why I started the thread.

This is where we should delegate the mystery to our domestic journalists and see what they report. Given the extremely shady history of Buffalo Chronicle and Zero Hedge, I'm defaulting to treating the story as garbage.

The RT piece (from the Russian state) that's very hostile to Trudeau is also interesting. That piece is explicitly from the Russian government.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> James, you said that Ezra Levant was tweeting news of this story based on US media reports. But from what I see, he tweeted it on Oct. 5, while ZeroHedge appears to have reported it Oct. 8 and linked to a Buffalo Chronicle report dated Oct. 7.


That actually is interesting. Right, Levant's tweet about a "huge sex scandal brewing" was October 5. It appears to precede the other American stories.

This pizzagate-style attack may have originated from Ezra Levant of the far-right Rebel Media. Is it legal in Canada to post such serious, unsubstantiated accusations just days before a federal election?

Again, we'll need journalists to make sense of all of this. The wording of Ezra's post is very generic and non-specific. It could be that (1) Ezra posted this, then (2) the Buffalo tabloid wove a story, perhaps inspired by the idea, and (3) ZH repeated the story, probably because it's consistent with the anti-Trudeau message from ZH and Russia (this goes back to at least 2018 at that site)

Such a mystery.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> I think this incident of the allegations appearing in foreign media is quite interesting Topo, which is why I started the thread.
> 
> This is where we should delegate the mystery to our domestic journalists and see what they report. Given the extremely shady history of Buffalo Chronicle and Zero Hedge, I'm defaulting to treating the story as garbage.
> 
> The RT piece (from the Russian state) that's very hostile to Trudeau is also interesting. That piece is explicitly from the Russian government.


I agree. RT is very close (maybe actually run) by the Russian government. But are they the source or just regurgitating?

Reading through the Chronicle's article a second time, it does seem suspect. For example:

The word "regularly" seems very suspect here, while if the Chronicle had used "occasionally", it would be a bit more credible.

The G&M could issue a denial, which would be very easy if this is absolutely false. But if they remain silent, is it because there is something to the report, or do they not see a reason to respond to (and propagate) what seems to be hearsay or fake news? What have they done in similar situations in the past?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I should clarify that RT's piece on Trudeau has nothing to do with a sex scandal. I mentioned it because it's quite hostile to Trudeau and includes highly inflammatory language: "Golden boy no more: As an election looms, two-faced Justin Trudeau has betrayed Canada"

In other words, that's a foreign power which is trying to manipulate and change the voting habits of the Canadian public.

At least among western countries, I believe it is widely acknowledged that RT represents the positions of the Russian government.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ignoring foreigners for a moment. Here's an interesting piece from Canadian law (the Canada Elections Act):



> 91 No person shall, with the intention of affecting the results of an election, knowingly make or publish any false statement of fact in relation to the personal character or conduct of a candidate or prospective candidate.


Here are some Canadian journalists which have published the fake statements about Trudeau committing inappropriate sexual acts:

James Di Fiore (Blackball Media), published October 4 with more detail October 5
Jason Long, Delilah Clark, Ashley Harris (Debate Post), published October 5
Ezra Levant, published October 5

James Di Fiore has previously been found guilty of violating the Canada Elections Act.

These appear to be the origins of this hit piece, unless someone can find an earlier instance. I've posted them in the order I believe it came out, apparently starting with Di Fiore.

Two days later, the Conservative Party itself posted this about Trudeau, which is a reference to the same rumour. The Conservative Party therefore fueled the unsubstantiated rumour by giving it legitimacy: Why did Justin Trudeau leave his teaching job at West Point Grey Academy?

I find it disturbing that a political party would leverage tabloid rumours as part of their campaigning. The time line and key words make it very clear that the Conservative Party is referring to sexual allegations against Trudeau.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I should clarify that RT's piece on Trudeau has nothing to do with a sex scandal. I mentioned it because it's quite hostile to Trudeau and includes highly inflammatory language: "Golden boy no more: As an election looms, two-faced Justin Trudeau has betrayed Canada"
> 
> In other words, that's a foreign power which is trying to manipulate and change the voting habits of the Canadian public.
> 
> At least among western countries, I believe it is widely acknowledged that RT represents the positions of the Russian government.


Uhh, with all the scandals Trudeau isn't a golden boy anymore, even the CBC has started posting the occasional critical article on him.

He is two faced and has betrayed Canada. This isn't an uncommon observation.
Climate change is one of his biggest hyprocracies.
How about crying about the residential schools, then fighting their settlements in court? 
Is that not two faced? 

Yes, he's been a bad leader, and he's been sewing divisiveness for his entire term. 
Working for the best intrestest of Canadians, his actual job, absolutely not.
Betrayed Canada? I can't think of a PM who's actively worked harder to wreck this country.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Conservative Party has sunk to new lows by publishing an unsubstantiated rumor involving impropriety by Trudeau and claiming that Andrew Scheer would reveal it all at the debate.

Andrew Scheer is Stephen Harper with far less ability. The Conservative Party is now controlled by muckrakers and deceivers. It is repugnant to Canadian voters.

If Andrew Scheer can't be honest with the little things, how can he be trusted to be honest about the big things ? Sad days for true Conservatives.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

And Scheer _didn't_ raise it in the debate -- gee I wonder why? One correction though, sags. The Conservatives didn't repeat the rumour directly. They just referenced the existing rumour, so that only those who have already seen the hit piece would know what they're talking about.

It's a wink to the conspiracy theorists.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

They should have used the space on their website to make public a costed list of their election pledges, but they would rather refer to oddball conspiracy theories.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> The Conservative Party has sunk to new lows by publishing an unsubstantiated rumor involving impropriety by Trudeau and claiming that Andrew Scheer would reveal it all at the debate.
> 
> Andrew Scheer is Stephen Harper with far less ability. The Conservative Party is now controlled by muckrakers and deceivers. It is repugnant to Canadian voters.
> 
> If Andrew Scheer can't be honest with the little things, how can he be trusted to be honest about the big things ? Sad days for true Conservatives.


What rumour did they publish?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Climate change is one of his biggest hyprocracies ...
> 
> Yes, he's been a bad leader, and he's been sewing divisiveness for his entire term ...
> 
> I can't think of a PM who's actively worked harder to wreck this country.




hypocrisy. Divisiveness is sowed, not sewed.

there's one good thing post-debate. Now that bernier is out of the closet as an agitated, gibbering, interrupting creep with a dyed brown wiglet pasted on his forehead, the number of agitated rightwingers does seem to have stabilized.

mister Matt won't you please look around you. Do you see a wrecked country? or are you a bit of an agitated wreck yourself?

.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> MrMatt said:
> 
> 
> > I can't think of a PM who's actively worked harder to wreck this country.
> ...


Don't you see how divided the country has become under Trudeau's leadership? 
They are openly actively promoting discrimination of all types, particularly racism, sexism. 
He's actively trying to silence speech and debate.
Don't you understand how destructive and dangerous this is?


Just as an example, in some places simply saying "it's okay to be white" is considered a hate crime. 
Sorry it's okay to be whatever colour you are.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Two days later, the Conservative Party itself posted this about Trudeau, which is a reference to the same rumour. The Conservative Party therefore fueled the unsubstantiated rumour by giving it legitimacy: Why did Justin Trudeau leave his teaching job at West Point Grey Academy?


It seems that there are some unanswered questions about JT abruptly leaving the school. Lawyers were involved, which is at the very least unusual. Differences of opinion on an article written by a student, while possible, seems a flimsy explanation.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> hypocrisy. Divisiveness is sowed, not sewed.


To be correct, divisiveness is sown.

-reconciliation and feminism dealt death blow when Quebec politics trumped the first nations female AG
-wants free speech but bribed the Canadian press if they agreed with him (and Rebel does not)
-supporter of LGBTQ but not if he risks losing a seat in the election
-tough on big business but fails to understand that CCPCs are really predominantly small businesses, unlike that UK-based consulting firm
-buys a pipeline after being on record as wanting to suppress the oil sands development
...

Mr Matt says hypocricy? Shame on you sir. You are offending our snowflakes!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> You make inflammatory posts as j4b, but can also put on a moderator's 'hat'. I think you need to re-examine that.
> 
> Added: for example, you started this thread to try to put some foreign interference spin on an unsubstantiated Trudeau sex scandal, but you shut down and appear to have entirely deleted a thread started yesterday that was about the same subject.


While I agree that j4b should not be a moderator, I do think the sex exploits when he was in school is overreach. Even today JT could have his choice of women. 

I think the free vacation while PM is serious as was the India debacle and his preaching to China. These are very serious illustrations of judgement lapses that even Butts could not prevent.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

James, what I find ironic is that I'm looking at sites I would never otherwise visit because of your posts on this subject. I guess that's not inflammatory, but it is certainly giving additional legs to mere rumour. 

Now I see efforts on this thread to twist blame for this issue onto the CPC. 

Having provided james difiore's name, I looked at his tweets and I see that in recent hours he has fully backpedaled and feels this was a whisper campaign. He is expressing regret at his lack of discretion. 

I think this thread shows similar indiscretion


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Wow...because of this thread I found that JT was room mates with a guy now in jail for child porn...wtf?? 
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/03/08/vic-toews-child-porn-trudeau-ingvaldson-_n_2832326.html


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

kcowan said:


> While I agree that j4b should not be a moderator, I do think the sex exploits when he was in school is overreach. Even today JT could have his choice of women.


Lots of people in power could seemingly have had their choice of women...Weinstein, Lauer, Clinton, Cosby. And yet for some of them that wasn't enough. In addition, Trudeau has a known history of groping.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

OnlyMyOpinion said:


> James, what I find ironic is that I'm looking at sites I would never otherwise visit because of your posts on this subject. I guess that's not inflammatory, but it is certainly giving additional legs to mere rumour.


I think the rumour had legs before I posted anything here. The whole reason I looked into it was that it was circulating pretty widely on social media and in conservative circles. Remember, even the Conservative Party put out an official communication relating to it: clearly the rumour had become significant enough to have an impact. The Conservative Party was aware of it, and trying to leverage it.

Those posting the first rumours were bragging about widespread distribution of it, I think on the order of 100,000+ eyeballs.

That's why I started looking into it. This wasn't just some oddball thing in a dark corner of the internet.



> Now I see efforts on this thread to twist blame for this issue onto the CPC.


The CPC fueled the serious and unsubstantiated allegation by referencing it in an official party communication. That's very poor judgement by the Conservatives. I hope they ran their text by their lawyers before posting it.



> Having provided james difiore's name, I looked at his tweets and I see that in recent hours he has fully backpedaled and feels this was a whisper campaign. He is expressing regret at his lack of discretion.


He's going to have legal trouble. He's ended up in court before over the Canada Elections Act.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> They fueled the serious and unsubstantiated theory by referencing it in an official party communication. That's very poor judgement by the Conservatives.


Where did the Conservatives reference "it".


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> Where did the Conservatives reference "it".


https://www.conservative.ca/why-did...-his-teaching-job-at-west-point-grey-academy/

Direct reference to the tabloid story, posted 2 days after it originated from the authors I listed. The party said they would raise it at the debate; they did not.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Yeah he left under unusual circumstances, and kept changing the story as to why. 

What in particular is inappropriate?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Perfectly reasonable article in the spirit of tit-for-tat electioneering to raise doubts. It raises reasonable questions as to why.. when the story changed so many times. No different than the Liberals challenge on Scheer's same-sex marriage vote in 2005. They are all below the belt but is the nasty nature of election campaigns on both sides. The trouble is partisans here cannot rationalize the 'equivalence' of such tactics by both sides.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Maybe you were right, AltaRed, when you said that this election has become nastier than usual.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I should also say that after learning more of these details, I no longer think qualifies as "foreign interference". Based on the time line, the allegations appears to have originated in Canada among fringe, amateur journalists who were being reckless and sensationalist.

Details of the origins are in post #17

It appears to me that they later got picked up by foreign outlets, which increased and enhanced the story's circulation. So I was wrong. It's not foreign interference. But a nice little case study nevertheless.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> I should also say that after learning more of these details, I no longer think qualifies as "foreign interference". Based on the time line, the allegations appears to have originated in Canada among fringe, amateur journalists who were being reckless and sensationalist.
> 
> Details of the origins are in post #17
> 
> It appears to me that they later got picked up by foreign outlets, which increased and enhanced the story's circulation. So I was wrong. It's not foreign interference. But a nice little case study nevertheless.


Thank you for sharing the information you gathered. He has done worse things before, but at least there will be no surprises for me going forward.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This is very interesting, at the end of the French Leaders' debate on Thursday:

All the reporter questions coming in _French_ ask Trudeau about issues.

The English-speaking male reporters have, so far, all asked about the internet sex scandal rumour I posted about here. Trudeau responded that he hopes people will decide based on facts, "not internet rumours" or "the sort of rumours you [reporter] are trying to spread".

This might indicate that a strategic move has happened on the right wing to now tarnish Trudeau based on a sex rumour. This kind of thing will probably play well in Alberta, which already has a culture of right wing conspiracy theories (e.g. Trudeau bought Trans Mountain to sabotage it, or, fake environmentalists are destroying the oil industry).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A reporter now called out Scheer for fuelling unfounded sex rumours: "your [Scheer's] campaign is dealing in rumour and innuendo". The reporter continues: "you've had 4 hours with Trudeau this week... why didn't you bring up the [sex rumour]?"

On the Conservative web site, Scheer did indeed pledge to challenge Trudeau on the sex allegation. He did not.

This is really disgusting stuff. Though they may not have originated the rumour, the Conservatives are continuing to leverage the fictitious allegations against Trudeau.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Wow! Singh is really sharp. One of those conspiracy theory journalists (one of the men who asked Trudeau about his sex scandal) asked Singh a highly leading question. Singh asked him who he is: the journalist was Keith (something) from "RNN"

Singh said he will not answer the man's questions. I can't even figure out what "RNN" is.

Weird stuff. Who are these reporters in the scrum asking about the sex scandal? They are not from any standard media outlet.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

This is sounding more and more suspicious.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo said:


> This is sounding more and more suspicious.


Journalists need to look into these scrum reporter guys. There were 3 characters there that were not from standard media. Singh has great gut instincts -- questioned the guy and his credentials -- then refused to respond to him.

Really interesting stuff going on.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I figured it out. This all relates to:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rebel-media-true-north-federal-election-debate-2019-1.5312172

Two of the 3 men asking the questions I described above are from Rebel News aka Rebel News Network Ltd aka RNN. Another man is Andrew Lawton from "True North Centre for Public Policy". I believe these are the 3 people who asked about the sex scandal.

These are highly partisan tabloid men, not journalists.

Andrew Lawton, one of the 3 asking about the sex scandal, has a past history. He was a PC candidate with a mental illness, and had made disparaging remarks against women, Islam, and gay people.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-ontario-andrew-lawton-pc-1.4653131

As you may recall, the head of Rebel (Ezra) was one of the people propagating the fictitious sex scandal earlier. It makes sense that Rebel sent reporters to get the scoop.

These far right reporters are out in full force. Initially, they had been denied access to the debate as described in the linked story.

It appears to me that the initial decision to deny them access had been wise. I can't believe they allowed these unprofessional, unbalanced people into the scrum.

I hope that Andrew Lawton gets the medical help he needs. Mental illness can be treated, but I think someone who has these tendencies should stay off of social media... _not_ create conspiracy theory content for a living.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Andrew Lawton was fired for racist, homophobic, and misogynistic comments on London's AM 980 radio station.

He said he was mentally ill at the time he made the comments.

He was also a failed Ontario PC candidate in the last Provincial election.

https://www.andrewlawton.ca/tag/andrew-lawton/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...andrew-lawton-blames-mental-illness-for-past/


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

But given the reach of these rumors, why doesn't JT just come out with a statement firmly denying all such allegations? Is he trying to hedge?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo said:


> But given the reach of these rumors, why doesn't JT just come out with a statement firmly denying all such allegations? Is he trying to hedge?


He did deny them during the press conference. It was on national TV just a few minutes ago.

But remember, that's not what tabloids do with coverage. What Rebel and True North will do is air segments of video (not Trudeau's denial of course) to frame it as suspicious and creepy.

Then, all the people who get their information from fringe lunatic web sites and social media will see that coverage and continue to get excited about the scandal that isn't.

That's how this kind of journalism works.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I should clarify again that despite my original thread title, I don't think this has anything to do with foreign interference.

The issue here appears to be domestically grown conspiracy theories and outrageous scandals that are being injected into politics, to the point they can actually influence the election. This sex scandal has now been referenced officially by the Conservative Party, and also asked about 3 times in televised questions following the final Leaders' debate.

Starting to sound like US politics, isn't it?


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> He did deny them during the press conference. It was on national TV just a few minutes ago.


It seems I missed that. It is indeed somewhat reassuring.

If Andrew Sheer had made a statement of denial, it would be very credible to me. Same with Jagmeet Singh and Elizabeth May. But JT has a bit of a blemished image, not related to the current rumors, but from his past activities.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The official Conservative website still have the debunked fake story on their website. It reveals a lot about their lack of integrity.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> I should clarify again that despite my original thread title, I don't think this has anything to do with foreign interference.
> 
> The issue here appears to be domestically grown conspiracy theories and outrageous scandals that are being injected into politics, to the point they can actually influence the election. This sex scandal has now been referenced officially by the Conservative Party, and also asked about 3 times in televised questions following the final Leaders' debate.


I agree, it is most likely domestic rivals pushing that line. I don't think there are many overseas countries that would be interested in our election per se. China may have a temporary interest as it relates to the fate of the Huawei executive, but I doubt they would take the risk of actually interfering. There may be far right actors in the US that would sympathize with their Canadian counterparts, but that hardly qualifies as interference. It is like some Canadians working for Obama's campaign, etc. Friends helping each other out in times of need.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Topo said:


> It seems I missed that. It is indeed somewhat reassuring.
> 
> If Andrew Sheer had made a statement of denial, it would be very credible to me. Same with Jagmeet Singh and Elizabeth May. But JT has a bit of a blemished image, not related to the current rumors, but from his past activities.


In fairness, that's the problem. It doesn't matter if there is no evidence or if Trudeau denies it, people will just say that there is a cover-up and that proves there is something to it. We've seen it before with numerous conspiracy theories.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

bgc_fan said:


> In fairness, that's the problem. It doesn't matter if there is no evidence or if Trudeau denies it, people will just say that there is a cover-up and that proves there is something to it. We've seen it before with numerous conspiracy theories.


It is true that most often such cases turn out to be nothing more than rumor or conspiracies, but from time to time there is a nugget of truth there too. An example would be the Bill-and-Monica issue, which at the beginning was famously denied by Bill Clinton.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Topo said:


> It is true that most often such cases turn out to be nothing more than rumor or conspiracies, but from time to time there is a nugget of truth there too. An example would be the Bill-and-Monica issue, which at the beginning was famously denied by Bill Clinton.


Or Trudeau and SNC interference
Or Trudeau and how many times he did blackface.

A Trudeau denial is worth about as much as a Trudeau apology or promise.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

SNC Lavalin......blackface, such things seem to matter to Conservatives more than to other Canadians.

Making it the focus of their election campaign was a huge tactical error and they have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory once again.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Topo said:


> It is true that most often such cases turn out to be nothing more than rumor or conspiracies, but from time to time there is a nugget of truth there too. An example would be the Bill-and-Monica issue, which at the beginning was famously denied by Bill Clinton.


That's the problem, the ones that really have some substance are relatively rare. Just think of pizzagate. I'll bet most of the conspiracy theories have zero basis in fact, just the desire that opponents wish it was true. But people will point to the 1 occasion out of a 1000 when there actually was something. You'd think there should be repercussions for spreading these conspiracy theories, but nothing has really happened.

Although, I find the whole US impeachment situation kind of interesting. Trump bought into the whole conspiracy theory that Biden was protecting his son, and thought to act on it by misusing his position in office. If he hadn't believed in it so much, he wouldn't be in this situation.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I think Trump is more paranoid about 'spooks behind every corner' than Nixon was to ensure a win in the 1972 election...and hence Watergate. Trump has already gone well beyond anything resembling Watergate.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> Although, I find the whole US impeachment situation kind of interesting. Trump bought into the whole conspiracy theory that Biden was protecting his son, and thought to act on it by misusing his position in office. If he hadn't believed in it so much, he wouldn't be in this situation.


Biden openly bragged on camera that he threatened to withhold US aid to the Ukraine unless the person investigating the company his son worked for was fired so it's not a conspiracy theory. Go to 1:18 to see Biden's on camera threat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

bgc_fan said:


> That's the problem, the ones that really have some substance are relatively rare. Just think of pizzagate. I'll bet most of the conspiracy theories have zero basis in fact, just the desire that opponents wish it was true. But people will point to the 1 occasion out of a 1000 when there actually was something. You'd think there should be repercussions for spreading these conspiracy theories, but nothing has really happened.
> 
> Although, I find the whole US impeachment situation kind of interesting. Trump bought into the whole conspiracy theory that Biden was protecting his son, and thought to act on it by misusing his position in office. If he hadn't believed in it so much, he wouldn't be in this situation.


Pizzagate didn't sound plausible from the beginning. It turned out to ve a hoax. But the Trudeau allegations are a bit different. I could easily imagine JT doing what has been rumored. On the other hand, it would be difficult to think of Scheer, Singh, or May in those terms.

The story with Trump and Biden is more clear. It seems Biden's son benefited from Nepotism. Trump in turn tried to use it for political purposes.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo, a claim of inappropriate relationships with women is a plausible claim against any & every man.

It's also a plausible claim against any male teacher. It's very low hanging fruit for making allegations.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Topo, a claim of inappropriate relationships with women is a plausible claim against any & every man.
> 
> It's also a plausible claim against any male teacher. It's very low hanging fruit for making allegations.


That is certainly true. But JT has a history that nicely builds into such allegations. He admitted as much that he is "privileged." Looking at the blackface issue, if we assume that he is not a racist (which I believe to be the case), then he definitely was a naughty "brat." Also the take away from the SNC scandal is that he is ready to bend the rules. So compared to Jagmeet Singh and Andrew Scheer who, as far as we know, follow the rules and are well-behaved, there is more risk. It certainly is not proof of anything though.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think the blackface stuff is way overblown. Even a handful of years ago, those kinds of hallowen costumes would not have raised any eyebrows at all. In those days, it was a non issue, even for progressive and liberal people.

People just got overly excited about the old photos in the context of today's political correctness.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Correction James.........."people" didn't get overly excited, just the Conservatives.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Topo said:


> The story with Trump and Biden is more clear. It seems Biden's son benefited from Nepotism. Trump in turn tried to use it for political purposes.


You have a strange definition of nepotism. He was hired because of his name. Nepotism is what Trump has done by putting Ivanka and Jared in the White House.
But let's look at dates and events to show why there is little to it. Yes, Burisma Holding hired Hunter Biden because of expectation of capitalizing on his name, that is pretty much clear. The rest of the story is a bit more murky.

Feb 2014: New Ukrainian government decides to start investigating corruption - https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-trumps-campaign-pressure-ukraine-probing-biden-2019-9
Apr 2014: British officials froze London bank accounts containing $23 million that allegedly belonged to Burisma owner Mykola Zlochevsky, Shokin refused to provide the documentation for the investigation, and the money was unfrozen - https://discussglobal.com/burisma-investigation-debunk-rudy-gioliani/
Apr/May 2014: Hunter Biden hired by Burisma - https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-trumps-campaign-pressure-ukraine-probing-biden-2019-9
2014-2015: Investigation was shelved by Ukrainian prosecutors - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...e-probe-casts-doubt-on-giuliani-s-biden-claim
2015: IMF and US criticizes Ukraine for not doing enough to deal with corruption - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...e-probe-casts-doubt-on-giuliani-s-biden-claim
Dec 2015: Biden tells Ukraine to fire lead prosecutor for failure to investigate corruption - https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-trumps-campaign-pressure-ukraine-probing-biden-2019-9
Mar 2016: Prosecutor was fired - https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-trumps-campaign-pressure-ukraine-probing-biden-2019-9
Jan 2017: Ukraine formally ends investigation - https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-trumps-campaign-pressure-ukraine-probing-biden-2019-9, https://discussglobal.com/burisma-investigation-debunk-rudy-gioliani/

So, basically Ukraine was making a show of investigating corruption by the former government, particularly Zlochevsky who owned Burisma. But when the UK seized some of his funds and looked for documents from the Shokin, he refused and with the lack of evidence, they unfroze his accounts. Then Ukraine lets the case against Burisma sit for 2 years. Shokin gets fired and it takes another year to continue and complete the investigation.

Now Shokin is trying to play the victim saying that it was all pressure from Joe Biden to drop the case against Burisma, except for the fact that for 2 years between the start of the investigation and Biden pressuring for a replacement prosecutor, nothing ever moved on the investigation from the Ukrainian side of the house.

You tell me if the conspiracy theory makes sense based on the above timeline.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> Now Shokin is trying to play the victim saying that it was all pressure from Joe Biden to drop the case against Burisma


I already posted the link of Biden on camera bragging about extorting Ukraine. Why don't you watch it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Prairie Guy said:


> I already posted the link of Biden on camera bragging about extorting Ukraine. Why don't you watch it?


I already did. Is there something that you disagree with my timeline? The fact that he bragged about forcing Ukraine to change prosecutors has nothing to do with the fact that his son worked for Burisma. Or did I miss that part where he said he forced Ukraine to drop Shokin because they were investigating his son's company?

Moderators: I recall that links to RT are not allowed here, so I should have mentioned that the Prairie Guy's link was to a Youtube cast of RT.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

bgc_fan said:


> The fact that he bragged about forcing Ukraine to change prosecutors has nothing to do with the fact that his son worked for Burisma.


Yup, that's it. Hunter Biden right after being kicked out of the army for cocaine abuse, who speaks no Ukrainian, and who has no energy experience is hired at the salary of $50,000 a month by Burisma.

It happens all the time!! :biggrin:


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

bgc_fan said:


> You have a strange definition of nepotism. He was hired because of his name. Nepotism is what Trump has done by putting Ivanka and Jared in the White House.
> But let's look at dates and events to show why there is little to it. Yes, Burisma Holding hired Hunter Biden because of expectation of capitalizing on his name, that is pretty much clear. The rest of the story is a bit more murky.
> 
> Feb 2014: New Ukrainian government decides to start investigating corruption - https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-trumps-campaign-pressure-ukraine-probing-biden-2019-9
> ...


I did not say that Hunter broke the law or must be prosecuted. I just think that if he were not the son of Joe Biden, he would not be on the board of Burisma, with a $50,000 paycheque. The directors on XOM make closer to half of that, and they were CEOs of big companies, etc. I believe that would qualify as some sort of nepotism. 

I do agree on Javanka with you. That's another type of nepotism.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> I think the blackface stuff is way overblown. Even a handful of years ago, those kinds of hallowen costumes would not have raised any eyebrows at all. In those days, it was a non issue, even for progressive and liberal people.
> 
> People just got overly excited about the old photos in the context of today's political correctness.


People expect their politicians/leaders to (at least) show sound judgement. From an article in the Washington Post:



> ...blackface was an extremely well-established racist trope by the time Trudeau donned it...


and 



> His sheltered upbringing, one so extreme it prevented him from understanding a concept as infamous as blackface until he was in his 30s, is less excuse than cause for ongoing alarm.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...never-properly-vetted-canada-is-paying-price/


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Topo said:


> I did not say that Hunter broke the law or must be prosecuted. I just think that if he were not the son of Joe Biden, he would not be on the board of Burisma, with a $50,000 paycheque. The directors on XOM make closer to half of that, and they were CEOs of big companies, etc. I believe that would qualify as some sort of nepotism.
> 
> I do agree on Javanka with you. That's another type of nepotism.


Oh, that's a given. However, that is pretty much how things go in many big companies, though it isn't nepotism. It's more of connections and the "old boys network". If you take a look at CEOs and other boards, you'll probably see the same names being recycled over and over again.

Note: I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that is how things are.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo, he wasn't doing blackface that mocks African Americans. He had put on a costume of something like Aladdin / Arabian Nights.

Blackface to mock black Americans is the old racist trope. Trudeau did not do this, as far as I know.

His costume is much more like putting on feathers or a headdress for a native American costume.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Which of the several times?l


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Topo, he wasn't doing blackface that mocks African Americans. He had put on a costume of something like Aladdin / Arabian Nights.
> 
> Blackface to mock black Americans is the old racist trope. Trudeau did not do this, as far as I know.
> 
> His costume is much more like putting on feathers or a headdress for a native American costume.


I am willing to join you in giving him the benefit of the doubt and say that I don't think he is a racist. I would argue that putting blackface "on a costume of something like Aladdin / Arabian Nights" was a lapse of judgement.

I have to admit that this is the most exciting election I have been through. It could get even better...


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Most of the people I've talked to about Trudeau (including a friend tonight, who's Arabic and a visible minority) did not take offence to these Trudeau incidents. In fact he said to me, I really don't see why anybody cares about these... they are non-issues.

Sadly, this has become a pattern during this election. Lots of attacks of little or no substance.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

Maybe putting blackface on Aladdin is not a moral failing, but it surely must be an artistic failure.

If the current allegations are proven to be true, maybe he should get another free pass. I know people who would not take offence to them. From their perspective, these are non-issues.

Sadly, this has become a pattern...


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

I just came across this article from the Canadian National Observer.

https://www.nationalobserver.com/20...iral-canadas-election-integrity-law-cant-stop

It traces the origin of the rumor to a magazine in Ottawa called Frank. Seems that initially the rumors were innocent: JT simply had an affair, not with a student, but with her/his mother. On another website (Snopes), the first name and surname initial of the woman is mentioned.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trudeau-sex-scandal-school/

I can't see how this would be a scandal at all. It was completely fair game. A nothing-burger. 

I have a newfound respect for our prime minister now. Go Justin Go!


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Topo said:


> Go Justin Go!


Yes Topo I have been thinking the same thing. I say "Trudeau has to go!"

I recommend this CBC Compass test to see who you really want amongst all the misinformation and lies:

https://votecompass.cbc.ca


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

kcowan said:


> Yes Topo I have been thinking the same thing. I say "Trudeau has to go!"
> 
> I recommend this CBC Compass test to see who you really want amongst all the misinformation and lies:
> 
> https://votecompass.cbc.ca


Interesting questionnaire. Looks like I fall somewhere in the middle. No wonder I can't find much enthusiasm.

The story on Trudeau, however, was very intriguing.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Topo said:


> Interesting questionnaire. Looks like I fall somewhere in the middle. No wonder I can't find much enthusiasm.
> 
> The story on Trudeau, however, was very intriguing.


Yes I found the same thing. I am too neutral and centrist to align with any of the parties. I am pretty sure that a minority government of any stripe will serve me better.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

kcowan said:


> Yes Topo I have been thinking the same thing. I say "Trudeau has to go!"
> 
> I recommend this CBC Compass test to see who you really want amongst all the misinformation and lies:
> 
> https://votecompass.cbc.ca


I'm just a little bit right of center according to that poll. I guess sags and James now have to stop calling me an alt-right extremist. :biggrin:


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

Neither candidate seems to truly have the will pay down the deficit, and if we continue to allow the government to use our credit cards to run things, any idiot could do that.

So pull out a coin, flip it and check off the winner on the ballot box and hope that we get a real leader for a candidate in the next election.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

james4beach said:


> Most of the people I've talked to about Trudeau (including a friend tonight, who's Arabic and a visible minority) did not take offence to these Trudeau incidents. In fact he said to me, I really don't see why anybody cares about these... they are non-issues.
> 
> Sadly, this has become a pattern during this election. Lots of attacks of little or no substance.


Most people don't think Trudeau is a racist so you can stop beating that dead horse. But they are concerned about his appalling lack of ethics, his incompetence, and his fascination with dressing in costume as a supposedly mature adult. Plus he can't seem to stop groping and inappropriately touching women.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Amazingly after taking the compass poll it has deemed me to fit in with the Liberals...lol @ CBC


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Prairie Guy said:


> Most people don't think Trudeau is a racist so you can stop beating that dead horse. But they are concerned about his appalling lack of ethics, his incompetence, and his fascination with dressing in costume as a supposedly mature adult. Plus he can't seem to stop groping and inappropriately touching women.


Some things Trudeau did were dumb but Scheer is dumb now, so there is that.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Some things Trudeau did were dumb but Scheer is dumb now, so there is that.


The Conservatives have worked hard to spin up a story about Trudeau lacking ethics and being dumb, to discredit him. I really don't see it though. I am an independent thinker and make my own decisions.

On SNC, Trudeau made the mistake of having someone on his team (JWR) who was trouble. She illustrated her behavioural problems near the end, with her secretly recorded conversations of private meetings. Just unbelievable. Someone like Harper ruled with an iron fist and would have never permitted someone like JWR in his team. Harper or Scheer could have ended up in exactly the same situation as Trudeau if they had JWR there. As for the ethics ruling, what the Conservatives of course never mentioned through the whole affair was that this was a completely a new office with no history of ruling on this kind of matter. It is very much open to debate whether the Ethics Commissioner's ruling was correct and there is no calibration for this from past Canadian history, because the office never existed before Harper.

As for the past costumes, they are non issues. Just a stupid distraction. Overall the Conservatives have spun up a pretty elaborate character attack on Trudeau that I see little basis for, and it hasn't convinced me.

In fact I have come to think a lot worse of the Conservatives for their obsession with Trudeau's mistakes. So much whining and negativity from the Conservatives. Instead if they had put together a solid platform and environmental measures, I could have been on board with them.

Additionally, the Russian State has been making similar character attacks on Trudeau (link to the state-run RT) which is something to think about. There is a parallel here with Trump and the Republicans carrying out character attacks on liberal-leaning opponents, assisted by Russia (as indicated by intelligence agencies and seen in plain sight on pro-Russia sites such as ZeroHedge).


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

I think Liberals would be better off dumping Trudeau as leader of the party. Freeland could be a reasonable replacement. They could reinvite Wilson-Raybould or Philpott and vote them into leadership too. But I think the Libs are as starstruck as the rest of us.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo said:


> I think Liberals would be better off dumping Trudeau as leader of the party. Freeland could be a reasonable replacement.


What do you see wrong with Trudeau?

I ask because I am genuinely curious which of the complaints resonated with you. For example I know that in Alberta, it's all about the energy issue.



> They could reinvite Raybould-Wilson or Philpott and vote them into leadership too. But I think the Libs are as starstruck as the rest of us.


No way... these two individuals were bad team players. Imagine you were hiring for a company. There's no way you would hire those women after what they've done.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> What do you see wrong with Trudeau?
> 
> I ask because I am genuinely curious which of the complaints resonated with you. For example I know that in Alberta, it's all about the energy issue.
> 
> ...


I think he has shown poor judgement on multiple occasions and for a prime minister that is a big deal. Trudeau is not central to the liberal agenda. I doubt he (himself) contributes substantially there. I do concede that he speaks well and looks good. But he is not competing to star in the next sitcom.

With regards to Wilson-Raybould and Philpott, I believe they stood by principle and did what was right. They are a profile in courage. Country before party. That is admirable. If Trudeau had any sense of justice, they would be promoted, not retaliated against. 

"Rule of law" before everything else.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Topo said:


> With regards to Wilson-Raybould and Philpott, I believe they stood by principle and did what was right. They are a profile in courage. Country before party. That is admirable. If Trudeau had any sense of justice, they would be promoted, not retaliated against.


Well I completely disagree here. I think JWR came in with a beef, and there was evidence of a long hostility. There was a personality conflict at the core of this. I've seen many instances of this in my working life and this looked exactly like one of those.

Simmering conflict, perhaps because JWR wanted different things on aboriginal issues, or didn't like being told what to do (she's a strong woman) and resentment... until she acted out and took vengeance.

Yes she had a difference in opinion on the SNC matter, but the history shows she had differences in opinions on many other matters and was bitter about those too. With this particular matter she went over the top in retaliation for her personal reasons. I don't see that as courageous or honourable in any way.

And I think Conservatives only spun/encouraged that story (of the principles-driven decisions) for their own partisan reasons. The whole situation could have just as easily happened to them, or any political party.

It's a big oversimplification to call the scandal a battle of 'ethics and principles vs being told what to do'.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

james4beach said:


> Well I completely disagree here. I think JWR came in with a beef, and there was evidence of a long hostility. There was a personality conflict at the core of this. I've seen many instances of this in my working life and this looked exactly like one of those.
> 
> Simmering conflict, perhaps because JWR wanted different things on aboriginal issues, or didn't like being told what to do (she's a strong woman) and resentment... until she acted out and took vengeance.
> 
> ...


JT took the path of benefiting himself (politically), while Wilson-Raybould did her job to protect the law, the way she saw it as the attorney general. Trudeau did not engage Wilson-Raybould to discuss his concerns and hear hers. He sent his goons to do the job through intimidation. She lost her position in the party to protect the Justice Department from interference by the PMO. Philpott was a very competent minister who took a stand for principles. 

I think that is admirable. But not much respect for Trudeau. I wouldn't mind his "extracurricular activities" though!


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Well I completely disagree here. I think JWR came in with a beef, and there was evidence of a long hostility. There was a personality conflict at the core of this. I've seen many instances of this in my working life and this looked exactly like one of those.
> 
> Simmering conflict, perhaps because JWR wanted different things on aboriginal issues, or didn't like being told what to do (she's a strong woman) and resentment... until she acted out and took vengeance.
> 
> ...


Yeah agreed, that's pretty much my take also James, although I just didn't like the way that Trudeau handled it. As Topo said, _"He sent his goons to do the job through intimidation"_. It was an amateur reaction.

ltr


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think JWR just illustrates the amateur nature of the whole gang. Who knows what was the truth? It seemed to illustrate that having 50-50 in the cabinet because it is 2016 does not wash anymore. Our rep was our former mayor and long time politician but she was totally ignored and rather than quite she chose to not seek reelection. She did not like what was going on in Ottawa but chose not to fight.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

A big endorsement of Trudeau from Obama today. Is this foreign interference? With 109M followers, and an unknown but likely millions as Canadians, he can influence our election with a push of a button and for zero cost (and zero commission).

I think it's very risky for politicians to weigh in this way on any side. What if Trudeau loses? Obama isn't in power but certainly stands very strongly with Democrats. 

Anyway, it's probably a sign of the times. I think our election laws are poorly equipped to deal with this type of issue. And maybe there isn't a solution. No one is paying Obama. But he wields massive power, as do others.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

doctrine said:


> A big endorsement of Trudeau from Obama today. Is this foreign interference?


Just pretend Trump had endorsed a Conservative and imagine how the left would have reacted.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

doctrine said:


> A big endorsement of Trudeau from Obama today. Is this foreign interference? With 109M followers, and an unknown but likely millions as Canadians, he can influence our election with a push of a button and for zero cost (and zero commission).
> 
> I think it's very risky for politicians to weigh in this way on any side. What if Trudeau loses? Obama isn't in power but certainly stands very strongly with Democrats.
> 
> Anyway, it's probably a sign of the times. I think our election laws are poorly equipped to deal with this type of issue. And maybe there isn't a solution. No one is paying Obama. But he wields massive power, as do others.


I think there are a few mitigating factors in play here:

1. Obama is not the current president of the US. He is basically a famous citizen.

2. Obama is not attacking or gossiping about JT's rivals.

3. He is not using covert channels or organizations. He is lending support publicly and in a straight forward manner. Voters can factor this endorsement into their decision (positively or negatively).

4. His admiration for JT or the Liberals does not come as a surprise.

5. The US and Canada are historically very connected. Some Canadian citizens become activists in US elections and (maybe) vice versa.

6. No money is changing hands.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

kcowan said:


> I think JWR just illustrates the amateur nature of the whole gang. Who knows what was the truth?




i believe we do know from jody wilson-raybould's own testimony. Look how abrasively she behaved at the outset of her SNC lavalin DPA decision. She was in australia on a gummint mission when she heard from the public prosecutor back in ottawa - in a 29-page document - that the PP was "of a view" to prosecute the engineering multinational.

wilson-raybould then went on holiday a few days, returning to ottawa 12 september 2018. Apparently she promptly decided to side with the public prosecutor, although as AG she had the power to override.

did JWR inform the PM in a cordial & cooperative fashion, as befits a canadian cabinet minister at the highest level?

JWR did not. Instead she said nothing, thus forcing the PM to come to her. At a meeting scheduled 17 september 2018 to discuss wilson-raybould's maltreatment of manitoba court of queen's bench judge Glenn Joyal, justin trudeau had to ask his abrasive AG what she was planning to do with the SNC petition for DPA.

by her own report, JWR snapped back that she would not discuss the case with the prime minister. By her own report, she "looked him in the eye" & "strongly advised" him not to interfere with herself.

what kind of civilized conduct is that? that's not what i for one want to see at senior level in the canadian cabinet. What i want to see is a justice minister/attorney general who would have called upon the prime minister - respectfully - as soon as her SNC mind was made up. Who would have informed him - not insolently - that although she knew what his wishes were, nevertheless her duties as she understood them obliged her to refuse the remediation he was seeking. 

without abusing an iota of client confidentiality, wilson-raybould could have aired just one argument from the public prosecutor's copious 29-page pleading, that would have helped explain to the puzzled prime minister why she as justice minister/attorney general believed she should prosecute SNC lavalin in the public courts.

one of the arguments had immediately gotten into the media & was already public knowledge, so wilson-raybould could have used that argument. It allegedly recites that the new DPA remediation legislation applies only to companies who self-report their own corruption. SNC lavalin never self-reported, so in the narrow sense of the brand-new never-tested law, this argument can be used to refuse SNC lavalin.

i for one believe that if wilson-raybould had taken anything like a civilized approach, justin trudeau would have accepted her decision to side with the public prosecutor.

in the same meeting, wilson-raybould should have informed the prime minister that she was prepared to resign as justice minister over the SNC issue. This is what parliamentary politicians in england & in canada have always done. It is the honourable course of action.


* * * * *


but nothing like this happened. Instead we had an arrogant, abrasive, inexperienced politician grandstanding for her own ambition. We had uproar, hysterics, illegal taping of phone calls, endless virtue promenading to every audience that would listen. 

we should never have a prime minister who behaves out-of-control like this. Canada is a parliamentary democracy, not a Wonderland dictatorship ruled by a Red Queen. Jody Wilson Raybould at present is exactly where she belongs in canadian history. A sensational star, a stunning celebrity, a maverick, an outsider, a charismatic fringe leader who will go down in song & story as another Louis Riel, another Poundmaker. When history is written, her pages could very well exceed those for justin trudeau.


.


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## Topo (Aug 31, 2019)

humble_pie said:


> we should never have a prime minister who behaves out-of-control like this.


I completely agree with this statement. The PM (from whichever party he or she is) should respect the rule of law, first and foremost.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Topo said:


> I completely agree with this statement. The PM (from whichever party he or she is) should respect the rule of law, first and foremost.



if you are trying to insinuate that the present PM broke "the rule of law," millions of canadians do not agree with you.

the PM violated the conlict of interest Act on 2 occasions. The first was when he vacationed w Sophie & the children chez l'Aga Khan in the caribbean. Meanwhile the Cons' own Rhona Ambrose was tweeting criticism the whole time from her friend's luxury yacht in the caribbean. Go figure that one.

re the 2nd violation of the conflict of interest act, i believe that ethics commissioner Mario Dion's narrow view will be overturned by history. It's my understanding that the current split configuration between the director of public prosecution, the attorney general & the minister of justice was created by stephen harper little more than a decade ago & the liberal party has never been happy with it.

certainly a structure in which a cabinet member can pretend to be above the prime minister & to rule justice in canada from a tyrannical olympian position is not tolerable in a democratic country. The canadian cabinet structure has forever been a collegial group whose contradictions are to be negotiated at the cabinet table. No single cabinet minister can pretend to be superior to the team. The only avenue for a minister who decides to oppose the group is to resign, with explanation to the public via the media.

imagine what a mess this country would promptly become if each minister ran his ministry like a private fiefdom or satrapy. 

notice that no other indigenous liberal member of parliament followed jody wilson-raybould when she resigned from the party, or ever even expressed support for her melodramatic performances prior to her resignation.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Not only that ^ but the Ethics Commissioner has only existed for two Prime Ministers in all of history: Harper and Trudeau. There is simply no "calibration" for how this Commissioner might have ruled regarding past PMs... this is a new role.

Therefore the Commissioner's rulings must be taken with a big grain of salt. They have no historical basis. In another 10 to 20 years, we will have the correct context to judge politicians on a consistent criteria, but we don't have that context today.

And intelligent person must think for themselves and ask questions, instead of nodding and going along with partisan complaints and wild accusations. Are Trudeau's actions out of line with the norms of past Prime Ministers? The answer is, we have no idea.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4951921/justin-trudeau-ethics-investigation-stephen-harper/



> The Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner of Canada only came into effect in July 2007, meaning it’s only operated under two prime ministers: Trudeau and Stephen Harper.
> 
> In an interview with the Canadian Press, Michael Atkinson, a professor of political studies at the University of Saskatchewan, said that makes it difficult to compare the behaviours of previous governments and prime ministers who have not been subject to the same kinds of ethical accountability.
> 
> “First, we haven’t had a federal ethics law for very long, so it is a bit misleading to invoke a standard that most prime ministers couldn’t breach if they wanted to,” he said. “Second, breaking rules, whether laws or codes, is not the only standard for ethical evaluation.”


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Good summaries of the situation by Humble and James.....

JWR will have her place in history and people can make up their own minds on what transpired. 

There is no doubt after she secretly recording conversations with fellow cabinet ministers and making them public that she could no longer represent the Liberal party.

It will be interesting to see the final result and impact of a couple of JWR's decisions.

Will Ms. Meng be released to China or extradited to the US ? Will SNC Lavalin be found guilty or not guilty ?

That chapter on JWR is still to be written and won't be finished until those outcomes are known.


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