# Border crossing data shared with US



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

If C-21 is passed, Canada and the US will share more detail about travellers. Both governments and tax agencies will learn your exact dates of crossing back and forth:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bill-c-21-entry-exit-program-cbsa-border-snowbirds-1.4724358

This means the US can step up its enforcement of Substantial Presence Test, and frequent travellers to the US may find themselves suddenly upgraded to "US Persons" and required to start filing US taxes, plus other problems like TFSA trouble and a huge mess if you hold Canadian mutual funds/ETFs. You really don't want that to happen -- trust me.

Or over-stay in the US, and find yourself banned from the US forever. Their country is turning more anti-foreigner so they will probably step up enforcement of this kind of thing. (While we're on the topic, do not ever talk about marijuana use at the border -- also might get you banned for life).

In Canada, there would be more strict enforcement of the # of days residency requirement for things like provincial health insurance, and probably many other things that aren't obvious.

Beware... sounds like this is coming. If you're not careful it can have huge tax consequences.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Not to mention failing to file FBAR with the US. Imagine you stay too long in the US, become a US Person, and then fail to file the FBAR disclosure. This can result in massive penalties, potentially tens of thousands of $.

Many Canadians have been getting away with not filing these (perhaps under the incorrect impression that it's only required for US citizens). As soon as the countries start sharing more border-crossing data, the US will have everything it needs to start coming after thousands of Canadians for FBAR violations. Remember that Canadian banks also share account details with the IRS for people suspected of being US-linked, as described on this Govt of Canada web site:



> Under the agreement with the U.S., your financial institution could identify you as being a U.S. resident because of information associated with your account, such as a U.S. address or telephone number.


Those new laws that compel Canadians banks to share data with the US (FATCA) combined with this new legislation to share more border crossing data, is really going to put more Canadians on the IRS radar. Beware. I could see the US start on a rampage of penalty collection.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

I think we could see this coming a long way off. It's been talked about ever since 9/11. And the current bill was introduced 2 years ago. I don't think it is nefarious for the government to collect this information, nor to share it with the US. The rather loosey-goosey arrangement we've had up until now has just been an invitation for people to bend various residency and tax rules on both sides; not to mention immigration controls. 

In theory Canadians don't need a VISA to visit New Zealand. But when I vacationed there several years ago I found they stamped my passport with a "6-month VISA" with an expiry date. And when you leave, they take a record of your departure. I'm sure that somewhere within the bowels of the New Zealand Immigration Service there is a computer that spits out the ID of persons who have not left by the required date, so they can start looking for them. In Canada, we could not even do this because we did not track exits. (Mind you , the logistics of doing this in New Zealand are admittedly easier, as it's hard to get there except by plane or ship.)


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## Big Kahuna (Apr 30, 2018)

OhGreatGuru said:


> I think we could see this coming a long way off. It's been talked about ever since 9/11. And the current bill was introduced 2 years ago. I don't think it is nefarious for the government to collect this information, nor to share it with the US. The rather loosey-goosey arrangement we've had up until now has just been an invitation for people to bend various residency and tax rules on both sides; not to mention immigration controls.
> 
> In theory Canadians don't need a VISA to visit New Zealand. But when I vacationed there several years ago I found they stamped my passport with a "6-month VISA" with an expiry date. And when you leave, they take a record of your departure. I'm sure that somewhere within the bowels of the New Zealand Immigration Service there is a computer that spits out the ID of persons who have not left by the required date, so they can start looking for them. In Canada, we could not even do this because we did not track exits. (Mind you , the logistics of doing this in New Zealand are admittedly easier, as it's hard to get there except by plane or ship.)


They do the same 6 month stamp on your passport when you go to the USA for an extended period-they have been doing it for years.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I think the ramifications of sharing this data (in the Canada-US case) is most serious for tax consequences. It means that a Canadian could suddenly find themselves in hot water over US taxes.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Not to mention failing to file FBAR with the US. Imagine you stay too long in the US, become a US Person, and then fail to file the FBAR disclosure. This can result in massive penalties, potentially tens of thousands of $.
> 
> Many Canadians have been getting away with not filing these (perhaps under the incorrect impression that it's only required for US citizens). As soon as the countries start sharing more border-crossing data, the US will have everything it needs to start coming after thousands of Canadians for FBAR violations. Remember that Canadian banks also share account details with the IRS for people suspected of being US-linked, as described on this Govt of Canada web site:
> 
> ...



James, Please explain FBAR.

I file a 8840 by certified mail each year and have done so for 10 years.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Relatively new foreign bank account reporting that has it's own set of paperwork, with something around a $12K penalty for each violation (willful violations are bumped up to over $124K or 50% of the account balance at the time of the violation).

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/taxpay...ve-fbar-and-fatca-filing-requirements-in-june
https://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/blog/fbar-overview-penalties-options/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act

Keep in mind that the IRS comparison chart says that the FBAR threshold is reported as being across accounts. Having two accounts that add up to $10K at some point during the calendar year is listed as triggering a requirement to report for both accounts.


Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Eclectic12 said:


> Keep in mind that the IRS comparison chart says that the FBAR threshold is reported as being across accounts. Having two accounts that add up to $10K at some point during the calendar year is listed as triggering a requirement to report for both accounts.


Right, and if your Canadian bank suspects you might be a "US Person", I think they share your account details with the US (see post #2 above) which could give the IRS the info they need to figure out if you are a violator.

I don't think FBAR should be taken lightly. If you suspect you should have been filing this, but haven't been, you should visit a US/Canada tax specialist.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Right, and if your Canadian bank suspects you might be a "US Person", I think they share your account details with the US (see post #2 above) which could give the IRS the info they need to figure out if you are a violator.
> 
> I don't think FBAR should be taken lightly. If you suspect you should have been filing this, but haven't been, you should visit a US/Canada tax specialist.



Thanks James and Eclectic12.

I only have 1 chequing account, which does not accrue interest and is always sub 10K . Nevertheless I'll check FBAR reporting.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

A quick and dirty FBAR overview

FBAR is a 'report of foreign bank and financial accounts.'

United States persons( and you may not realuze you are a US person) are required to file an FBAR if:

the person had a financial interest in or signature authority over at least one financial account located outside of the United States; and
the aggregate value of all foreign financial accounts exceeded $10,000 at any time during the calendar year reported.


You may be a US person and not realize.

-Greencard holders, even if expired and no longer living in the USA are US persons.
- Person holding US citizenship, even if they were born outside the USA and have never lived there,
- If you spend too much time in the US and meet the substantial presence test, you could become a US person and be required to file FBAR and US taxes.
- Trusts and corporations set up in the USA with foreign holdings( even in some cases if you are the beneficiary, you have to report)

These are just a few examples. 

Cdn Banks are required to report suspected and confirmed US persons. This may be triggered by having a US phone number, a mailing address for part of the year, or holding a US citizenship, green card etc. Banks now ask questions at account opening to determine if you may be a US person. Some are slowly weeding through suspected persons to obtain a more accurate determination.

So if you were born in Canada and have never travelled to the USA, but one parent was a US citizen, you could be a US person and required to file an FBAR and US tax return.

If you spend the winters as a snowbird in Florida for 180 days, then did a couple of 2 day shopping trips to Buffalo you may exceed the substantial presence test and need to file.
Remember that the 183 day sojourner rule is not cut and dried. There is a formula - don't exceed it.


FBAR and US persons legislation is complex and far reaching. The above is very simplified and only covers some issues.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

twa2w said:


> .... The above is very simplified and only covers some issues.


holds stomach and rolls on the floor in hysterical laughter and then starts to cry ...


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