# Weighing the pros and cons of how deep to have roots in Canada at 65+



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

Except for emergency healthcare, English spoken (more or less!), public libraries /recreation centres, and decent weather in a few places for 3-4 months a year I really see no great advantages to be retired in Canada - not financially, not emotionally and in very few other practical considerations either. I am a bachelor. I don't own a business or property. I slowly moved all my possessions to a storeroom in Asia so that at 62 I now live out of a suitcase in one of the most expensive metropolitan areas of Canada (GVRD) - for reasons of family obligation that are unlikely to last more than 5 years.... 

I am a Canadian citizen and resident very well-travelled in Southeast and South Asia. I got most of my medical care overseas because I could see a specialist within a few days in Saigon, Penang or Mumbai who spends 30-40 minutes in a consult instead of 15. I could afford to eat out. And there is the history, the beaches, and more. 

In fact *I am chomping at the bit to get old fast*, so I can take my CPP, OAS and possibly GIC and get the heck out of here! The only thing that holds me back is virtually no savings. My retirement income will be meagre - dependent on the tax-payers in fact. On $700 I could live in Nepal or Cambodia but not Thailand or Taiwan. To live in any of the rapidly developing Asian Tigers it'll take GIC and probably part-time work or running a small business either overseas or here half the year for cash. Actually I could even report it. As I recall it isn't taken off dollar for dollar. 

My plan is to just rent a room in a shared apartment here in Canada (as indeed I do now) for the absolute minimal 'footprint' in Canada and for only one reason: continuing to qualify for GIC. And getting treated if I develop something disastrous like cancer.

Snowbirds, who actually do this - I am most keen to learn from you. I sit at your feet for wisdom. Do any of you regret doing this?


----------



## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Friend of mine built a house in a village area of Thailand for $35K and is retired there living on his CPP etc. Lots of expats where he is. Had a bit of money from a condo sale in Richmond a few years ago- maybe $160K but that's it. He's lived in Thailand for years, only coming back to Canada to work for half the year to top up his CPP- loves it there and lives cheap. I'd like to do the same thing in some out of the way corner of the Med or the Caribbean. Might only make Penticton though... but hot and quiet is good enough for me.


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I have thought about it. We have about $60,000 of our income that is guaranteed every year and could live quite well somewhere else.

The problem is family. We don't have the heart to leave our son and grandson back in Canada.

Now if they could come with us........but it wouldn't be to Asia. Too many terrorist groups and unstable governments.

Maybe the countryside of Italy or Greece, but I think the cost of living is higher there than in Canada.

I have always thought I would really enjoy living in Las Vegas and spending my time playing slot tournaments.

Lots of casinos means lots of free drinks, cheap good food and always something to see and do.


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

You have to be a factual resident of Canada to qualify for GIS. Health Care coverage generally requires residency for about 6 months or more in each year. If you lie about it you are committing fraud.

You can collect CPP and OAS while living abroad. The amount of CPP you receive will depend on how much you paid into it during your working life, which seems to have been rather peripatetic. The amount of OAS you can receive will depend on the number of years you have resided in Canada between ages 18 and 65.


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

OhGreatGuru said:


> If you lie about it you are committing fraud.


And, by the tenor of the OP's posts, committing fraud with a good measure of pride in so doing!


----------



## pwm (Jan 19, 2012)

The OP is a parasite who's scheming how to game the system, but at least he is being honest about it.


----------



## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

You can certainly emigrate elsewhere and collect your earned CPP and your OAS (unless OAS rules change). It doesn't sound like family provides any reason to stay.

It's hard to believe someone could be 62, unmarried without children, and have nothing saved, but whatever. 

Not sure why you would take the risk and rental expense of trying to maintain a false presence here just for GIS. Like OAS, it is subject to change at the whim of the government and subject to heavy penalty if you are falsely collecting it.

If you are truly asking others here how to scam the system to collect GIS, my advice is to forget GIS and just get the f^ck out of Canada. 
Oh, and if you do get some long term illness, don't come back, rely instead on your cheap foreign doctor and the generosity of citizens there. We wouldn't want you anyway.


----------



## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Keeping an apt or address here may not work. The government can easily keep track of when you exited and entered the country. That information is shared between departments. It may also be shared with the province in the future, negating your health coverage.
Fraud is a criminal offense. But I hear the jails in Canada are quite warm although lack of sunlight may be a problem.


----------



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

*Worth discussing in detail*



OhGreatGuru said:


> You have to be a factual resident of Canada to qualify for GIS. Health Care coverage generally requires residency for about 6 months or more in each year. If you lie about it you are committing fraud.
> 
> You can collect CPP and OAS while living abroad. The amount of CPP you receive will depend on how much you paid into it during your working life, which seems to have been rather peripatetic. The amount of OAS you can receive will depend on the number of years you have resided in Canada between ages 18 and 65.


Factual 'resident' - this I must learn the meaning of. "How long is a piece of string" as my grandfather used to say, adding "everything relies on a definition of terms". I hear all kinds of definitions of resident. The only one that counts for me is what the Federal government accepts for OAS, CPP and possibly GIS. I expect I will lose a few years off my OAS. I just don't know how many and who has to prove what. Is the burden of proof on the government or me? This is no easy task trying to get records from various employers, places I rented, doctors etc. A lot of it is amounting to estimates and even guesswork.

RE: OAS, the formula according to my reading is 1/40th, A.K.A. 0.025 per month for every year away. This works out to $15 less every month for every year one was in Canada for fewer than 183 days.

So, young people reading this - *beware*! Do not leave Canada for more than 183 days! Keep your medical insurance even if you object to a monopoly insurance plan with no two-tier system like most countries of the world (Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany...). Keep a bank account in Canada even if you don't use cheques, get a driver's license even if you take the bus, do whatever you can to buy property (even if it is scrubland for a trailer).

As a technically self-employed commission salesman in one province and operator of a seasonal service business in another I did not contribute to CPP much past age 25. So I would be surprised if my CPP is any more than $100 per month. I will reply on OAS, very likely GIS.


----------



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

pwm said:


> The OP is a parasite who's scheming how to game the system, but at least he is being honest about it.


I am essentially a nomad,a 'rootless cosmopolitan' Guilty as charged. If I have to settle down I hang out an address at my hammock. I live hand to mouth and wherever I can derive maximum benefit. I don't subscribe to the concept of citizen except that passports have been required for a couple of centuries at least. For me the government is a landlord. If I don't like the terms of tenancy, I move. The only difference between me and an international corporation taking advantage of the system of incorporation in tax shelters and varying laws and practices is I am honest about it. And I am very much a 'small fry'.

Seized pirate to Alexander the Great: ' "What do you mean by seizing the whole earth; because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you who does it with a great fleet are styled emperor"

If we must turn this into an ethical debate: *Who is hurt by no flag waving*?


----------



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

indexxx said:


> Friend of mine built a house in a village area of Thailand for $35K and is retired there living on his CPP etc. Lots of expats where he is. Had a bit of money from a condo sale in Richmond a few years ago- maybe $160K but that's it. He's lived in Thailand for years, only coming back to Canada to work for half the year to top up his CPP- loves it there and lives cheap. I'd like to do the same thing in some out of the way corner of the Med or the Caribbean. Might only make Penticton though... but hot and quiet is good enough for me.


This is one of the big choices for me - work overseas or work here? Maybe it'll have to be both. In any case I will have to work. The question is where. And doing what.

Glad you mentioned Penticton. The other question is where to make my home base in Canada. I will start another thread about that. I have fond memories of summers at Penticton Lake. But why stay in BC? I hear Trois Rivieres in PQ and New Brunswick and St. John are lovely. I won't have to worry about the weather Oct 15->April 15, because I will be in Mongolia or Mozambique.


----------



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

twa2w said:


> Keeping an apt or address here may not work. The government can easily keep track of when you exited and entered the country. That information is shared between departments. It may also be shared with the province in the future, negating your health coverage.
> Fraud is a criminal offense. But I hear the jails in Canada are quite warm although lack of sunlight may be a problem.


Thank you for your insights.

My reading tells me that land crossings to/from USA are indeed monitored and there is *talk* of doing the same with airports in the future. As far as I know unless and until Canada gets a national ID system knowledge and enforcement is increased what you are talking about is not happening. I mean if you are talking about tracking a terrorist or someone accused of missing his child support payments then the big guns come in. Until then I am not convinced that you are correct.

For now my plan is to be back in Canada for 183 days per year. I have read nowhere than any more than that is legally required. It used to be (I think) that there was a checklist of whether one is connected enough to Canada. Now, again just as far as I know and understand it is very simple - are you physically present in Canada for 183 days per year. Whether brief trips (under 30 days?) to USA within that period deduct that amount I do not know. They probably do. But I hope not because I really like Louisiana, Florida, Texas, and New Mexico. I just want to get in a car on the open road, explore the huge variety of climates and cultures in USA. And bring back the practice of hitchhiking (with me as the geezer patron). 

Upon what do you base your assumption that immigration records are shared with other gov't departments? We have pretty strict privacy laws in Canada I thought.


----------



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

sags said:


> I have thought about it. We have about $60,000 of our income that is guaranteed every year and could live quite well somewhere else.
> 
> The problem is family. We don't have the heart to leave our son and grandson back in Canada.
> 
> ...


Too many terrorist groups in Asia? It is true that statistically Thailand and Philippines have born the biggest brunt of jihadis after Israel. But I wouldn't be surprised if Canada gets a Syrian 'event' soon. At least in USA you can own a gun to protect yourself and your property. 

I think unstable governments have some advantages for the visitor. Singapore is very stable but aside from good value food courts, being vegetarian-friendly and having an excellent public transport system, plus being outrageously clean -- I can't stand the place for more than a week. I take the bus over the bridge to Malaysia where locals are much more easier going. Accommodation is outrageously expensive in Singapore. A British friend was paying $1000 (USD!) for a room in a shared house.

A retired in Thailand businessman from Alberta loves Nevada. I found the mood in Las Vegas depressing - a lot of poverty compared to GVRD. Mind you I see a lot of street people in Vancouver and beyond now too. Eating out is so much cheaper in USA than Canada. I am not a gambler but Nevada is great for a cheap holiday - just sit on your AC room and read books.


----------



## Nelley (Aug 14, 2016)

HermesHermes said:


> I am essentially a nomad,a 'rootless cosmopolitan' Guilty as charged. If I have to settle down I hang out an address at my hammock. I live hand to mouth and wherever I can derive maximum benefit. I don't subscribe to the concept of citizen except that passports have been required for a couple of centuries at least. For me the government is a landlord. If I don't like the terms of tenancy, I move. The only difference between me and an international corporation taking advantage of the system of incorporation in tax shelters and varying laws and practices is I am honest about it. And I am very much a 'small fry'.
> 
> Seized pirate to Alexander the Great: ' "What do you mean by seizing the whole earth; because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you who does it with a great fleet are styled emperor"
> 
> If we must turn this into an ethical debate: *Who is hurt by no flag waving*?


The big criminals hang the little criminals.


----------



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

I take umbrage at that Nelley. ;-)

As far as I know I haven't broken any laws. Maybe some social standards, yes. 

My no absolutes attitude has always been as follows...

1. No initiation of force - 99.9%
2. Personal responsibility - 90% 
3. Private property - 80%

I admit I have slacked off on some of these as senility is seeping into m brain and arthritis into my joints. But I continue to believe and practice a 'live and let live' policy.


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

HermesHermes said:


> ... For now my plan is to be back in Canada for 183 days per year....


The 183 days is applicable only to eligibility for health care. It has nothing to do with OAS. You have to have been "ordinarily resident" in Canada for 40 years between the ages of 18 and 65 to qualify for full OAS. Considering you say you have not filed income taxes or applied for health care cards you may have difficulty proving you have any qualifying years of residency.

I can't decide if you are a troll or just a parasitic idiot.

PS. I stand corrected. In the OAS application form you are not required to include periods of absence of 6 months or less from your "residence history".


----------



## sags (May 15, 2010)

I love your wandering ways. Thought of being a pirate or railway hobo a lot in my younger days.

But alas, the free spirit has the same stifling drawback as the "free man" concept.

Government operates on a "you don't pay........you don't get" ideology when it comes to OAS and CPP.

As the old song goes............

_Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose

And nothin' ain't worth nothin' but it's free_


----------



## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Land cand air crossings into the USA are tracked both ways. Air travel out to other countries may not be tracked as carefully , but returning to Canada is. The onus would be on you to prove when you left, if you were audited.
Yes we have privacy laws but they do not prevent sharing of information among departments of the federal government. As far as the law goes, the government is one entity.
You appear to qualify for full OAS at age 65 and if you are living in Canada. You would qualify for the GIS. 
Your GIS is stopped if you leave Canada for more than 6 consecutive months or fail to fileca Canadian return.
Health coverage varies by province but in Ontario you can be away 212 days in any 12 month period and maintain coverage.


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> I have thought about it. We have about $60,000 of our income that is guaranteed every year and could live quite well somewhere else.
> 
> The problem is family. We don't have the heart to leave our son and grandson back in Canada.
> 
> ...


I also wouldn't go to Asia, just don't like Asian culture, food.mentality....
I'd like to retire in Southern Spain .
and sag, imho, you are mistaken about cost of living in Europe.... Living in Canada is very overvalued... check numbeo.com (you can compare 2 cities by hundreds of parameters ).



For example very nice North Italian town of Brescia comparing with (not the most expensive London, ON - I think you live there)


> You would need around 3,938.12C$ (2,758.97€) in Brescia to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 4,500.00C$ in London (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax).




Or my favorite place Malaga


> You would need around 3,380.58C$ (2,368.37€) in Malaga to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 4,500.00C$ in London (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax)


In Andalusia , for long term, for 200-250 EUR you can rent not only apartment, but also townhouse.... Can you compare it with our prices? If you fully retired, rent you house and go for 3-4 months


----------



## HermesHermes (Mar 24, 2017)

*My, my, I should be paid for stirring up some interest on this board!*



OhGreatGuru said:


> The 183 days is applicable only to eligibility for health care. It has nothing to do with OAS. You have to have been "ordinarily resident" in Canada for 40 years between the ages of 18 and 65 to qualify for full OAS. Considering you say you have not filed income taxes or applied for health care cards you may have difficulty proving you have any qualifying years of residency.
> 
> I can't decide if you are a troll or just a parasitic idiot.


There is always the possibility that I am a parasitic troll, or neither. Maybe I work for CRA or Immigration Canada, the Toronto Sun newspaper, the Fraser Institute or the Communist Party of Belgium. Maybe this is a personal research project for one of Justin Trudeau's assistants. Does it matter? Facts are facts.

I am familiar with the gov't rules. I have read the websites.

Back to my hypothetical personal situation. Did I say I hadn't filed income taxes? I certainly have, not every year however. Ditto for health care insurance.

My questions are very simple. *Who on this board knows the following, best from personal experience...*

Once I know the rules and once I have understood them I might even do more than the minimum.

1. Upon whom is the onus to prove the 40 years of residency for OAS? The applicant or the government?

2. If the person applying for GIS must prove residency how is it done - rent receipts, bank accounts, car insurance, ATM withdrawals, hospital admissions, WHAT?

3. How is residency defined for OAS eligibility at 65, GIC eligibility at application, and GIS continuing in the future? My understanding is that is based purely on one thing -- one's body being within the territorial limits of the nation of Canada for 183 days per year. Nothing else. If you say you live in the bottom of a lake in a paper bag like one of Monty Python's Yorkshiremen, that's good enough. But maybe I am wrong.

4. Who checks entries/exits to/from Canada? Not maybe, sort of, possibly, but actually, definitely and all the time, since year X. Or not.

5. Is the info from #5 available to those who administer OAS and GIC?

6. If it is, how?

Getting all amy records might for me, it might work against me. But *first I need to know my facts, their facts and where they intersect. *Then proceed from there. Then knowing what is required thereafter I collect (or not) as much information on my pre-retirement years by every avenue possible. Or at least doable -- worthwhile financially and time-wise. Then if challenged and I am offered X% less on OAS or am reused for GIS I have all my documents in order to say 'You are wrong and here is the proof.' I tell you one thing for sure -- for now on I keep records on anything related to travel, health and money.

For all I know talking frankly about this publicly is just opening up a can of worms, and the safest bet is to just say nothing and see what happens. But I don't want to risk it. I want to be prepared for the worst and for a fight. Individuals and businesses do that all the top with CRA on tax matters. Wouldn't retirement benefits for some Schmuck be the same? You get armed with information, you try to negotiate a settlement if there are problems, and then if push comes to shove you 'go to war.' The only problem is those who decide and issue the cheques have unlimited resources. 

These must all have been established in court cases (civil and criminal). So, maybe I have to ask a lawyer. I just thought that maybe someone on this board...

a. travelled a lot overseas
b. had a mickey mouse cash business some years
c. didn't file taxes every year
d. is planning his no savings retirement
e. will get virtually no CCP
f. doesn't want to stay in Canada anymore than absolutely essential

So, to clarify and repeat, I am asking these questions of anyone who had an unusual situation vis-a-vis residency, pre or post-retirement has a toehold in Canada and collects GIC. Or they applied and were refused. Or they were accepted and later refused. Or had it reduced.

I am trying *to determine the size and placement of my toe in the toehold. 
*

Like some Caribbean nations, Canada sells citizenships. Rich people from Hong Kong do something clever all the time. I am not commenting here on the morality of doing that. They are told 'you must invest X 100s of thousands of dollars in category Y and you get a shoe in for permanent residency.' Can I learn something from that that could benefit me? Yes, in theory anyway. 

I know a guy who formally gave up his Canadian residency and he got less of each OAS and CPP because he expatriated during his working years. He just accepted whatever they decided. Actually he found out much after his retirement age. Out of curiosity he enquired and applied. He was missing something and got a couple of years retroactive payments and future payments. It wasn't like the government of Canada chased him down to offer anything. Funny thing is he owes low six figures to CRA and he has no effect on his collecting OAS and CPP. Can I learn something from that that could benefit me? Yes, in theory anyway.

I am just asking for the facts for how the little guy can use the system to his advantage too.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

HermesHermes said:


> I am essentially a nomad,a 'rootless cosmopolitan' Guilty as charged. If I have to settle down I hang out an address at my hammock. I live hand to mouth and wherever I can derive maximum benefit. I don't subscribe to the concept of citizen except that passports have been required for a couple of centuries at least. For me the government is a landlord. If I don't like the terms of tenancy, I move. The only difference between me and an international corporation taking advantage of the system of incorporation in tax shelters and varying laws and practices is I am honest about it. And I am very much a 'small fry'.
> 
> Seized pirate to Alexander the Great: ' "What do you mean by seizing the whole earth; because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you who does it with a great fleet are styled emperor"
> 
> If we must turn this into an ethical debate: *Who is hurt by no flag waving*?


Flag waving isn't the issue. "Rootless cosmopolitan" you are not, it means something entirely different from a different era.

You are not at all like a corporation which produces something, provides employment and then uses legal means to minimize taxation.

Parasite is the most accurate description, with a propensity for theft. Because taking taxpayer's money through fraud is theft. Canadian taxpayer is the victim, he is the one "hurt". Then again, the welfare system is designed to be played and the taxpayers keep voting for it... That's the root of the problem. That, and the fact people who don't pay taxes are allowed a vote.


----------



## mordko (Jan 23, 2016)

gibor365 said:


> I also wouldn't go to Asia, just don't like Asian culture, food.mentality....
> I'd like to retire in Southern Spain .
> and sag, imho, you are mistaken about cost of living in Europe.... Living in Canada is very overvalued... check numbeo.com (you can compare 2 cities by hundreds of parameters ).
> 
> ...


Southern Spain was the destination of choice for British retirees. Sun, cheap housing, cheap life, free healthcare. Millions of British expats.

You should peruse British expats' forums. Yes, they ***** about Canada too, but Spain... Different level of bitching. Apparently, Spain is really cold. Or so the Brits say. In winter. Because houses aren't designed to be heated properly and temperatures do go down. And the pound collapsed, so local life all of a sudden got expensive. The houses they bought in Spain are now unsellable and have been for a while. Crime is a huge problem, not surprising with most of the local youth being on the dole and large immigration from North Africa. And now they might be losing the free Spanish healthcare...

Italy - don't know. There are some expats, but not many. I found the prevalence of Swastikas in small towns near Rome a little off putting. 

As a general rule, tourism and immigration = two big differences, as they say in Odessa.


----------



## bass player (Jan 27, 2016)

HermesHermes said:


> I am essentially a nomad,a 'rootless cosmopolitan' Guilty as charged. If I have to settle down I hang out an address at my hammock. I live hand to mouth and wherever I can derive maximum benefit. I don't subscribe to the concept of citizen except that passports have been required for a couple of centuries at least. For me the government is a landlord. If I don't like the terms of tenancy, I move. The only difference between me and an international corporation taking advantage of the system of incorporation in tax shelters and varying laws and practices is I am honest about it. And I am very much a 'small fry'.


In other words, you are more than willing to take advantage of your Canadian citizenship when it's convenient and provides for you because others do all the hard work to provide you with benefits.

You're just another mooch who tries to hide it by spouting "I don't believe in citizenship BS" that fails every logic test. If you honestly and truly don't believe in citizenship, then put your money where your mouth is and prove it...renounce your citizenship, pack up your stuff, and leave for a place with no government where the realities of your fantasy will become apparent soon enough.


----------



## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

HermesHermes said:


> ...
> 
> 1. Upon whom is the onus to prove the 40 years of residency for OAS? The applicant or the government?
> 
> ...


From Application Form for OAS:
*14. Residence history*

List below all of the places you have lived from age 18 to present both inside and outside of Canada. Do not include periods when you were outside Canada for less than six months at a time.

(Note: You must provide proof of your residence history. See the information sheet under "Documents Required". If you need more space, use a separate sheet of paper.)

From Information Sheet to Application Form:

*Proof of Residence History (Refer to question 14 on the application)*

If you have not lived in Canada all your life, you must send us certified photocopies of documents that prove your history of residence in Canada. You can use the following documents to prove when you entered, departed or returned to Canada:

- passports;
- immigration records (such as visas);
- customs declarations; or
- other approved documents that can prove your history of residence in Canada. 

Your past efforts to stay under the government's radar all these years are now going to come back and bite you in the a**


----------



## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> You should peruse British expats' forums. Yes, they ***** about Canada too, but Spain... Different level of bitching. Apparently, Spain is really cold. Or so the Brits say. In winter. Because houses aren't designed to be heated properly and temperatures do go down.


 Cannot tell about all Spain, I was researching specifically Malaga area. January average temp 13, high 17, low 7 (exactly like in Tel Aviv, not a problem at all ))



> And the pound collapsed, so local life all of a sudden got expensive..The houses they bought in Spain are now unsellable and have been for a while.


 Very good . I like it! I've seen Brits who both condos in Malaga, renting them now dirt cheap, but they want 1 year rent paid up front. Also with upcoming Brexit, everything will be even cheaper.



> Crime is a huge problem, not surprising with most of the local youth being on the dole and large immigration from North Africa. And now they might be losing the free Spanish healthcare..


Be surprised, but crime in Malaga much less then in Toronto 
Toronto Crime Index: 35.07	, Malaga 28.05
Toronto Safety Scale: 64.93	, Malaga 71.95
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compar...ada&country2=Spain&city1=Toronto&city2=Malaga

Comparing with Beer Sheva where I worked in police (Crime Index: 40.94, Safety Scale: 59.06), crime in Malaga practically non-exist.



> As a general rule, tourism and immigration = two big differences, as they say in Odessa.


 Believe me , I know it very well . Just to emphasize , I am NOT talking about immigration, but about long-term 3-5 months vacations.... as oppose to OP preference to Asian countries. Pay me, i won't go to India


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

Mordko is clearly wrong with his rhetoric. The op is precisely like a corporation that does not pay taxes but recurves Canadian benefits. The only way it is different is that mordko thinks it is ok when he does it.

I like this thread. It is possible to live on next to nothing and have a good life. Who are we to impose our life values on the op?

We have been focused on retiring to Vancouver for the last 20 years and have been mindlessly building wealth to accomplish that. We think of retirement numbers that are very large.

I've seen the YouTube videos that show how to live in Cambodia for $350 per month. Those folks have everything they need. We look at numbers 20x that and I've come to realize that 19x of that multiple goes to government overhead and consumerism; mostly the former.

To the op: consider the idea of going to Mexico. If you can get your passive income up to $1500/mo, you could have a good life in a number of beautiful places and have good healthcare. Put in a couple of years of hard work, build up some momentum, go to Mexico, and never look back.

Canada does not bring that much value anymore.


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

TomB19 said:


> We have been focused on retiring to Vancouver for the last 20 years and have been mindlessly building wealth to accomplish that. We think of retirement numbers that are very large.
> 
> I've seen the YouTube videos that show how to live in Cambodia for $350 per month. Those folks have everything they need.


TomB, I cannot help but ask, why would anyone save up to retire to Vancouver? As someone who lived and worked there for many years, my goal was to retire away from there. Vancouver is bearable if one has no choice, i.e., that's where one's employment or business is based. But your case is the first I have heard of someone wanting to migrate there in retirement. It's a great place if you fancy grey skies, copious rainfall, pollution, Bangkok-style traffic jams, high crime and overpriced everything.

As for Cambodia, I am sure one can live there for $350/mo. if one chooses to "go native". Do you think you could be content? When you say they have everything they need, do they really? Will that $350/mo. budget cover, for eg., heart surgery or extensive cancer treatment should such be required? 

My experience with living in places like Cambodia is that the ordinary people simply do not expect to have money for such things as treatment for major illness in hospital. They do not have it and they do not expect government or anyone else to pay. They accept their fate, which is to recover without treatment or die. Usually it's the latter. Leaving major illness aside, many do not have money even for basic medicine when needed. I do not really know much about Cambodia, but I know places like it and I am sure I am not far off the mark in saying that $350/mo. provides little beyond subsistence.

Someone who lived close by when I lived in California retired to the Philippines. He said he could not afford to retire in a major SoCal city. The RP is one of those S.E. Asian countries featured, _inter alia_, in YouTube videos touting "Live like a king in the Phils for $500 a month". The PI is also one of those countries known for medical tourism. Treatment can be had there for a fraction of the cost of treatment in the west. My CA acquaintance recently encountered heart problems requiring several surgeries. The total bill came to close to USD25,000. In the U.S. it probably would have been $250,000. But the fact is that for him, it was still a lot of money and he was reduced to begging on the internet for donations to save his life. I suspect that the outcome in Cambodia would not be much different.

I'll add, TomB, that I think your Mexico comment is a good one. From what I have seen on travels there, if you avoid the trendy spots and don't have to be on the beach, you can do fairly well on $1,500/mo.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

I live in Regina. I used to go to Vancouver regularly with a former employer. My wife joined me, several times. We loved it.

Vancouver is beautiful and culturally rich. We love it but we have now refocused our interest in other places that happen to be more affordable. Kelowna being one of them.

I adore British Columbia.


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

TomB19 said:


> I live in Regina. I used to go to Vancouver regularly with a former employer. My wife joined me, several times. We loved it.
> 
> Vancouver is beautiful and culturally rich. We love it but we have now refocused our interest in other places that happen to be more affordable. Kelowna being one of them.
> 
> I adore British Columbia.


TomB,

I think Kelowna area makes more sense for retirement. When my wife and I moved from Vancouver to our rather remote Vancouver Island location, we thought we would enjoy going back to Vancouver from time to time just for a dose of culture and civilization. For awhile, we made regular trips, but we came to enjoy them less and less. It got so that the best part of the trip was getting out of Vancouver. 

Even leaving out Kelowna, the Okanagan has a number of places worth checking out for retirement. Then, if you feel the urge, you can still get to Vancouver once in awhile.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

I appreciate your take on Vancouver. Thanks.

By the way, I have a cousin who lives in South Western Spain in winter and she has convinced me to consider it as a retirement destination. She pointed out a few of the problems but the upsides are really strong.

It would be amazing to live close to the beach on the Mediterranean with car access to all of Europe.

The major downside she pointed to is the strength of the euro but she said the col is generally about half of what it costs them in Nova Scotia.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> ... I think Kelowna area makes more sense for retirement ...


Some I was talking to like Victoria .... but it seems like those selling in Vancouver then moving to Victoria are making it less attractive.


Cheers


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

TomB19 said:


> By the way, I have a cousin who lives in South Western Spain in winter and she has convinced me to consider it as a retirement destination. She pointed out a few of the problems but the upsides are really strong.
> 
> It would be amazing to live close to the beach on the Mediterranean with car access to all of Europe.
> 
> The major downside she pointed to is the strength of the euro but she said the col is generally about half of what it costs them in Nova Scotia.



Might be good timing for Spain, according to mordko's post, upthread. Sounds like a lot of Brits want to sell out.



mordko said:


> Southern Spain was the destination of choice for British retirees. Sun, cheap housing, cheap life, free healthcare. Millions of British expats.
> 
> You should peruse British expats' forums. Yes, they ***** about Canada too, but Spain... Different level of bitching. Apparently, Spain is really cold. Or so the Brits say. In winter. Because houses aren't designed to be heated properly and temperatures do go down. And the pound collapsed, so local life all of a sudden got expensive. The houses they bought in Spain are now unsellable and have been for a while. Crime is a huge problem, not surprising with most of the local youth being on the dole and large immigration from North Africa. And now they might be losing the free Spanish healthcare...


I have never been to Spain, but I have not heard many negative reports about it that I can recall.


----------



## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Eclectic12 said:


> Some I was talking to like Victoria .... but it seems like those selling in Vancouver then moving to Victoria are making it less attractive.
> Cheers


That is probably true. Might be okay to buy a little ways out, places such as Saanich, Sidney, Brentwood Bay, etc.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

I've never been to Spain either, but I kind of like the music.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Mukhang pera said:


> Might be good timing for Spain, according to mordko's post, upthread. Sounds like a lot of Brits want to sell out.


The Brits that own on the ocean are stuck in a British ghetto because the Spanish use it in the summer only. Our friends from Monterey CA own a house in Antequera and it is better. They lived there for 3 years and now rent it. We stayed with them. In November, the temperature on the beach was 26 degrees C with no wind and sunny. But there was nobody there and many of the restaurants were closed. Great if you are reclusive!


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We prefer Portugal to Spain. The exodus of Brits from Spain has slowed down considerably. But this Brixit thing could change that for some. We find the people in Portugal friendlier and the prices the same or lower.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I think you would find Portugal reclusive in November too. For one thing, the Atlantic is far colder than the Med. I am interested in your feedback?


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Never been in the winter. But we did spend time just across the border in the Algarve....Albufeira and environs. We found the the locals more friendly throughout Portugal than we did in Spain. We got very tired of seeming pubs catering to the Brits in Southern Spain. Almost as bad as Sorrento! Chips with everything.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

ian said:


> Never been in the winter. But we did spend time just across the border in the Algarve....Albufeira and environs. We found the the locals more friendly throughout Portugal than we did in Spain. We got very tired of seeming pubs catering to the Brits in Southern Spain. Almost as bad as Sorrento! Chips with everything.


Two comments:
1. Try the Algarve in the winter then tell us how you feel.
2. Instead of Sorrento, try Positano. DWs favourite place!

(Southern Europe is a vibrant place in the summer and dead in the winter. Nice has its market and Malaga has its shopping street but other than that, pretty dead. The coasts are even worse.

We even tried Fregene 10 minutes north of the Rome airport. Beautiful but empty in October. Gorgeous white sand beach totally empty.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Agree. We have been to Amalfi several times. Positano is a favourite but very crowded. We have fought our way on to the Sorento-Positano bus a few times and we have driven the route. I imagine that it would be much less crowed in winter.

We met a British couple last time we were in Malta. They spend part of their winters in Malta. Their comment was that the weather is moderate (compared to the UK) however it can be extremely windy. He was a CA and did his sums. He felt it was the best option for their particular circumstances and requirements.

We have done three winters in SE Asia and the past one, well shortened to 9 weeks, in South and Central America. I think that we will be going back to SE Asia this winter. Perhaps Philippines and then to Thailand,our favourite. We avoid the places like Phuket and Ko Samui in favour of the much less tourist centric areas/beaches/islands.


----------



## TomB19 (Sep 24, 2015)

There is some wonderful information in this thread.

Ian, can you share some idea of monthly spend in Thailand for a mature couple that wants a reasonable level of comfort?

I've seen people cite $600/no but that is for backpackers. Our minimum expectation includes a private room, hot showers, and a reasonable level of safety.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our costs would be strictly based on anywhere from two to six or seven nights in one place. Also, the accomodation would typically be on or very near the beach.
We paid anywhere from 35-55 USD per night. Monthly rentals are either less, or you would get more bang for the buck. Especially monthly rentals that are a little away from the beach. The other consideration would be location. We paid $30USD in the north, Chiang Mai for a great B&B. Some include breakfast, others do not. Eating out is inexpensive. Dinner would be $5-10 depending where. Market street food to local restaurants. More if you want western food. 

We usually want AC, full bathroom, preferable a safe or lockbox, very clean, safe, etc. No dives thanks very much. I have no doubt that you can spend less for good acomodation. We tend to be a bit fussy.

We did look at a few sites for monthly rentals when we were considering a month on Koh Lanta. Cannot remember the sites. We googled. 

We found Cambodia and Vietnam generally less expensive for lodging but about the same for food. Transportation-taxi, air, van, ferry, is considerably less.

For nightly costs you could always get on the booking.com and try some areas, dates etc. to get a sense of cost or do the same on tripadvisor.


----------

