# Got screwed by roofing company....what would you do?



## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Hi,

We bought a new house this year and redid the roof since some shingles were blown away and the roof was already 20 years old. We never had any water coming in but wanted to avoid that by redoing it this year. We got three quotes, one which was $7500, one at 11k and one at 16k. I decided to go with the one in the middle since they had valid licenses and insurance. They did the job and now I have a new roof with five leaks! I called them out the first time and they came out with some tar to patch it up. It leaked again and then came back doing the same. The third time they came back again with more tar so got tired of it and got up on the roof and noticed that a large portion of my roof was covered with tar. I found that unacceptable and sent them a registered letter threatening to sue if the sections were not removed and fixed properly to stop the leaks. The were here the next day and redid (that's what they say...the tar is no longer there) two sections and assured me all was fixed. A few days later i noticed the leaks continued. 
This has caused damage to one room and worried it will cause more damage to the rest, so I called three other companies over to take a look and the first wanted to redo the entire roof at 16k because there were too many things done improperly, the second didn't want to touch it and the third quoted me 6k to redo the sections with problems and the does not assure I won't have problems elsewhere in the spring.

I called the roofer that did the job and didn't call me for a week. a day or two after the rain stopped and now only snowing he called me. I have not spoken to him yet because I am not sure how to proceed here. If I get him to repair it again, it will cost me $0 but then might have 20k of damage inside my house in the springtime when all melts. If i hire someone else will cost me a new roof or 6k to repair a half *** job.

What would you guys do?


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## mind_business (Sep 24, 2011)

It's pretty hard to screw up a shingling job. Do you have a complex roof with multi-valleys? Is the flashing installed correctly around roof penetrations / fireplace?

Option #1 - since you've lost confidence they can do the job properly on their own, hire a Contractor with roofing experience to oversee the rework by the original roofing company. They won't like someone overseeing their work, however it's better than getting sued.

Option #2 - get your roof replaced ASAP by another roofing company to protect your investment. Once complete, sue the original company for the replacement costs + damage to the inside rooms.

Option #3 - contact your insurance company for advice.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

I contacted my insurance company which is TD and they pretty much told me sorry you got screwed but it's not our problem. We will cover damage caused on the inside but that's it. This upsets me because I am trying to do the right thing to avoid having major damage (which would cost them a lot of $$) and they don't care.

If I redo the roof I will be out another 16k (bringing total to 11k) and then I can sue them for up to 7k in small claims court or if I hire a lawyer, I might get more but then a large portion will go to them. Worst thing is, we never know if we will be able to collect the $$ from the roofing company even if we win.

I also called a roofing inspector that works with insurance claims and he will charge me $500 for a full report in case I sue them. He offered to oversee their rework, but not sure how well that will turn out with the original roofers.


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## praire_guy (Sep 8, 2011)

Wow. How big is the house?

The quotes you got seem high?


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

it's a good size home plus a double attached garage. Yes it has a few valleys which is exactly where they are leaking (I would actually understand more if it was just there( but also leaking around a plumbing vent, chimney and an air vent.


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## Freedom25 (Dec 3, 2011)

Did you already pay the first company? If not, don't pay them and hire the one you trust (check them out!!!) to re-do the job. Company #1 might sue you for payment, but if you've taken photos and documented everything they won't win. That's a pretty spectacular screw-up to do a roof that badly, unless there are details you're not telling us.

You can also file a claim with the Better Business Bureau. It won't likely get them to make good on the damage but it's worth a try, and helps warn others not to use this company.

If you've already paid company #1, it might still be worth it to get the roof re-done by a company you trust and then take #1 to small claims to get as much as you can from them. Small claims court is easy, and yes, it's hard to get payment if you win, but probably not impossible in this case.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

Yes I paid them in full as I am not a roof expert and from the road all looked ok once they finished the job. I wish there were details I was not telling you but unfortunately there isn't. 

I am in Quebec and heard small claims court will take up to two years to get a judgement against them and then try collecting. I never sued anyone before.

The other thing is after this horrific experience, not sure who to trust anymore.

Would you guys redo it at 16k or repair for 6k and have no warranty


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Couple things,when you were quoted did you get a roof system?Did they apply ice&water shield on all eves locations & in all valleys?Did they put either a synthetic felt or tar paper in the field of the roof?What kinda shingles did they put on?traditional 3-tab or designer fiberglass?(what was quoted and done on your roof?)

How did you find the leak?wet drywall?have you gone into the attic?If you have tar in the valleys what pitch is your roof?is it walkable?(there should never be tar in a valley)

Was the roof leaking before the job was done? in the same spots?Is it leaking by a chimney/wall?What kind of decking do you have on your roof?plywood or planks?Did they apply the roof directly on your deck?ie not over a old layer?How old is the house?

I contract roofing as part of my business....i may be able to help you if you can answer some of these questions.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

2nd part.How did you select your roofers?(the 3 that quoted)Did they advertise any affilation to BBB or do you have a quebec roofing association?

How old were the guys putting on your roof?Was the salesman professional when talking with you?Did he do a physical quote and sitdown with you?

Where they messy?did the do it in a timely manner?.....These questions are important too because there is ''alot" of tells between a professional and hack

Did you pay any portion up front or after completion?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

The part I find strange here is they reacted quickly and came back several times to try and fix the problem at no charge. That isn't the hallmark of a scammer. They seemed to at least be making an effort but are perhaps incompetent rather than crooked?

I dealt with someone similar on some car repairs a couple of years ago. Ultimately I didn't return but I never considered them crooked since they kept trying and eventually fixed the problem.

Best of luck with this. I believe CBC Marketplace also had a show about roofers, you might want to look that one up for some nuggets of info.


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## mcu (Dec 6, 2009)

donald said:


> Couple things,when you were quoted did you get a roof system?Did they apply ice&water shield on all eves locations & in all valleys?Did they put either a synthetic felt or tar paper in the field of the roof?What kinda shingles did they put on?traditional 3-tab or designer fiberglass?(what was quoted and done on your roof?)
> 
> How did you find the leak?wet drywall?have you gone into the attic?If you have tar in the valleys what pitch is your roof?is it walkable?(there should never be tar in a valley)
> 
> ...


What's a roof system? I was quoted to remove all old shingles, install tar paper everywhere and ice&water shield in the valleys and first three feet everywhere else. They were suppose to clean up the gutters also but never did any of that and left a mess everywhere else. The shingles are made by BP and are the Everest line which is 3 tab with lifetime warranty.

I noticed water was coming in when the ceiling was starting to cave in. It started going doing the side walls and into the 1st floor from the 2nd, so I ripped out the drywall to try to prevent the spread. After going into the attic, I found another four leaks. One in the other identical valley, one near the chimney, one in the plumbing vent and one around a maximum air vent.

They didn't apply over old shingles. The house is 1993 and its plywood.

I never said they were complete scammers as they came to do the job, but I had problems with them from the first day when I caught them trying to get away with not installing tar paper. After starting a big stink, they continued the job installing the paper...so I know there is a small section without, but it's on a slope and I don't think it will even leak there. One guy told me they didn't put starter shingles or drip edges. They also didn't put any flashing along the garage roof where it touches the brick of the house. They siliconed it all the way down. The point is I paid 11k for a job and now my wife and I sleep with one eye open as we are scared it will cause a lot more damage to our newly renovated home.

The guys were in their early 30s but he blamed it on his employees screwing up. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, so I let him fix it but when I realized he was trying to do monkey repairs, i got annoyed and demanded he do it right. He finally redid a 6-8 ' section of the valley and assured me it would not leak because he fixed it himself, but surely enough it leaks. 

They did the job in 2 1/2 days (140 packs total if I remember) and I refused to give any money up front. With them I agreed to give them 1/2 when I got the material on my roof. Most other companies wanted 50% upfront and I was not comfortable with that.

It's hard to get the truth from other roofers, because I feel like a couple of them trashed the job just to redo it completely when I asked them only to repair. One guy even came over and siliconed around the vents, the valley when we weren't around and send me a $400 emergency repair bill because he could not redo it until spring (not sure what to do with this either). Why would i pay to patch something I will rip off in a week??


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

I am sure that the stress of it is worse than the potential cost of a re-repair.

Personally, I would check with friends, relatives to see if they know anyone trustworthy in the roofing business or that is a lawyer to get an honest opinion. At least that could help you move forward with some confidence, regardless of the direction that you take.

All the best.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mcu said:


> Hi,
> 
> I called the roofer that did the job and didn't call me for a week. a day or two after the rain stopped and now only snowing he called me. I have not spoken to him yet because I am not sure how to proceed here. If I get him to repair it again, it will cost me $0 but then might have 20k of damage inside my house in the springtime when all melts. If i hire someone else will cost me a new roof or 6k to repair a half *** job.
> 
> What would you guys do?


There are just to many "fly by night" so called roofers in business today.
At least the guys you hired finished the job. CBC did an expose on some
of these so called roofers in the Toronto area and even had Mike Holmes
(Holmes on Homes TV series) critique it. He pointed out several things
they didn't do properly.

I have a flat roof and originally it was tar and gravel. It was replaced with a 
membrane roof..no leaks after 5 years. I got 2-3 quotes
to redo it..but being a flat roof..you have to be extra cautious with water
sitting on the roof and leaks. I ended up calling a roofing company
that has been in business for 35 years in Ottawa and have an A+ rating
with the BBB. 

You are in a bit of a pickle now..because the area around the leaks will
have to be removed and new flashing put in the way it was supposed to
be in the first place and if the orginal roofer won't honor the warranty..
you will have to pay more to repair it properly.

Always double check the roofers reputation before signing the quote!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

mcu;102231 said:


> They also didn't put any flashing along the garage roof where it touches the brick of the house[/B]. They siliconed it all the way down. The point is I paid 11k for a job and now my wife and I sleep with one eye open as we are scared it will cause a lot more damage to our newly renovated home.


Not replacing the flashing is a major mistake, because water will get in there!
Silicon is a poor substitute for a properly installed flashing that is tarred properly. 



> They did the job in 2 1/2 days (140 packs total if I remember) and I refused to give any money up front. With them I agreed to give them 1/2 when I got the material on my roof. Most other companies wanted 50% upfront and I was not comfortable with that.


Most of them do that so they don't have to use their own money to buy materials.. 50% is too much..it should be 10% down, 80% at completion
of a satisfactory job, and withold the last 10% for 30 days until you are
satisfied there are no leaks. Because otherwise, you will have a hard
time getting them to come back and their "guarantee" is useless if they
are not reliable. 



> It's hard to get the truth from other roofers, because I feel like a couple of them trashed the job just to redo it completely when I asked them only to repair. One guy even came over and siliconed around the vents, the valley when we weren't around and send me a $400 emergency repair bill because he could not redo it until spring (not sure what to do with this either). Why would i pay to patch something I will rip off in a week??


You got caught by roofers that are not experienced. Some roofing contractors get overwhelmed with jobs in the summer and hire university
students to do the job..who can do the simple shingle stapling but haven't
got the training to do flashings, peaks, drip shields etc. This is where
an experience roofing company with a good reputation for their work and
a good rating with the BBB is worth their "weight in gold".


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

If your valleys are leaking and there's missing step flashing I would get the roof stripped and redone...it's Mickey Moused and will cause you nothing but future problems.(I can't even figure out how to screw up a valley bad enough to have it leak)

Find another roofer that is well known, local, been in business under same name for years, has numerous references to phone (this is #1). Ask at Roofing Supply stores or product manufacturers or your local Roofing Association for a list of qualified roofers.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

A roof system works together with everything on your roof.You have traditional 3-tab it sounds like(they could be fiberglass thou,which is fine)The industry is phasing out asphalt based shingles.A qualified roofer would explian this to you.A system is propoer underlay,drip edge,felt,proper venting ect,there is more to a roof than just peeling the old ones off and slapping the new ones on.

You were in trouble when you ''caught" them not installing felt.If your house was built in 93 all step flashing(anything running up a wall)would of been installed origanally(it wouldnt of past new home inspection)and same goes with any wall flashing(anything running into a wall)So id likely rule that out(it is under your siding,stucco or whatever you have as a exterior)Hang on i just read you have brick.....The roofers wouldnt of been able to install new flashing without cutting into your brick,flashing it and then putting a counter flashing over....I wondering if they ''couldnt" get to the origanal flashing because it was burried under the brick.Anyways its clear if your finding no starter shingles/drip edge ect its the roofer.

Get in touch with a your provinces assocation roofers...Something is very wrong obviously.


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## daddybigbucks (Jan 30, 2011)

You are in a bit of a pickle.

I was in the same situation a few years back. I went up on the roof after they left and took pictures.
My roof leaked as well.

I paid half up front and refused to pay the other half till i was satisfied. I held on till we went thru a couple rainstorms. I took so long that they summoned me to small claims court. I was ready to go to court but told them i would holdback 25% of the total bill. They agreed.

I had their licensing agency on my side till they had a closed door meeting with the roofing company. Then the agency told me case closed and nothing i can do. The whole thing is corrupt.

You cant have your house leak. i would probably pay to have the whole roof done again by the best roofer around. Then document everything that was wrong with the last install, and take them to court to get all your money back for the first one.


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

So sorry to hear about your troubles. Difficult situation but it really sounds as if the entire roof needs to be redone. It is especially troubling to think that leaks are in the valleys and around chimneys, vents, etc where flashings should be. Silicone and/or tar are definitely not a long term substitute. 

Definitely canvas neighbours, friends and family for a good company and call the references that the company provides. Goes without saying, I know sorry. I would definitely talk to the new company about documenting (give them a digital camera) and giving you a report as to why the previous job went so wrong. There must have been some fundamental mistakes made. 

If the company you used really was a reputable one and it just happened that they had a bad crew on or some disgruntled employee that decided to sabotage the job then maybe you could consider having them make it right but I would say only if that meant doing it from the plywood up. The idea of having an independent contractor oversee the work is a great idea if they would agree to it. 

Sorry again. Terrible to have your home impacted like this.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I wonder if it is better going through Sears or Home Depot or something so that those companies will hold the feet of the contractor they hire to the fire. I am sure it is more money but I am pretty sure a Home depot would want the person they send to do it right.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

It actually can be worse believe it or not using home depot and big outfits.Reason being the contractors that sub off of them are ''new'' to business,it's like trianing wheels before you set up shop.(think skill set between someone who works at h&r block as a acct vs working @ a private firm)

They set rates with there contractor and there is absoultly no give and take like there is between subbing for private,(low)there pay schedule is the shits because if there is extra changes ect everything has to be cleared by head office.(and it falls past the standard 30 days)They will back your warranty no doubt but just like it is for the contractor you the customer have to go through several hoops to get things cleared(similar to how a insurance company operates)....you know phone calls to set up phones calls.

Any roofer worth his salt doesn't operate through big box....and because its home depot and everybody feels safe,there prices are generally 10-15% higher...honestly roofer are best ''word of mouth,family businesses"I wouldnt go that route....there too big and its such a low driver for them anyways.


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## DanFo (Apr 9, 2011)

My brother contracts for Lowes installing windows.... He knows their wndows are junk but the people buying the windows from these stores wouldn't pay the price for the high end windows he'd normally install if you contract him directly.....It is simply easy work without any leg work on his behalf and helps keep him busy in the down times as well his trailer with his own company name gets used while he is doing these calls so a little extra advertising for him .


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Kinda funny(i know its not my thread)but today i recieved a call from my insurance company re:a issue that came up for me all the way back to last june/10....I got(screwed)from a homeowner(we,contractors get tooken advantage of too)This thread is timely for me but it's reversed.

I re-roofed a clients house that had a pool that was over 50ft away from the house and was fenced in with chainlink,normally when we do work when there is a pool we either ask the client to cover it and or we will tarp it off ect,anyways the pool was half-filled(with algae)and the owner"" specifically"" told me not to worry about it,it's not in use ect.Did the job- all was well and i though i had a happy customer...end of story.(she was serving as lemonade ect)

Last fall i get a letter from the clients insurance company saying my company is liable for cause of damage of a pool liner...blah blah blah with a pricetag of 8500.00(new everything)even thou the pool was over 20 yrs and it had original liner ect and there was evidence and photos of roofing nail adjacent to it(not even 1 was found in the pool,and even so they are 1 1/4 inches long)To make along story short my insurance co lost to there's and we both have the same carrier...I have to pay 1k deductable plus my premium rates will rise and the homeowner is getting there whole pool liner ect replaced by there deductable(500)Basically i was the ''fall" guy!I have problems that come up but it was a kick in the pants...i guess i was just going say we(contractors)have to be careful too,i always have to be slightly aware of who im dealing with.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

This is where revenge is a good thing when rich people screw you over so they can make even more money. You should take your time and find a way to make them think about what they did to you so others are not screwed by the same person.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

What are you going to do?It's gaming the insurance co's...Wife and husband sitting having a glass of wine and see a "in" on a chance to get a 85 hundred dollar pool liner(for 500),some people do that.What pisses me off is we both have the same carrier so in the end the way i see it i'm the one that loses....And because im in construction and have to carry 2 million insurance(to protect myself)my rates are high as it is....the 1k don't bother me as much as now i have a increase....but the ''nice''couple does not see that,and they knew im a smaller outfit.(what im i going to do fight the 50 yr old homeowner)

2 yrs ago i had a client(a women in her 70s)that i did a roof for,we finished the job and i went to collect a few days later,she brought up some issues about some things and i assured her that everything was proper....she did'nt like how some shingles were ''sitting"'(they had'nt fully sealed)so i told her no problem i'll switch them out(did that)went to collect and she said she see's other problems and wants to call a roofer inspector!I said mame im failing to see the issue i'm sorry but i need to collect and if you want to phone a roof inspector by all means you can do so

I already paid out 35 hun in material % 15 hun for labour and she owed me 8k,we went back and forth and finally i snap...i told her look if you don't clear your bill soon i'm going to take action,she told me to get off her private property or else she is going to call the cops "because i'm now threatning her''!and she is outraged,im a rip off artist ect!(there was absoultly nothing wrong)and because she was a older senior women i could'nt believe it.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I was shaking because i was so mad.I went back 2 days later(with my crew)and she saw us in the driveway,she came out saying she is going to call the cops,i told her go ahead my trialer is on the way and i'm taking back my material,she says what do you mean,you can't do that,im calling my lawyer...go right ahead mama....boys grab the ladder and don't worry about those flower beds....and i said you better line up someone because there is a thunder storm this wknd and i would'nt want to see your house get gutted with water.

Next day her husband paid me in full,he did'nt look at me and his hand was shaking.....That women want to rip me off....not a great situation but i was not going to let her milk me out of 8k.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

I was also a contractor for a number of years. In my experience, with both contractors and customers, 99% of the time each group are excellent, honest and upstanding individuals. It is the rest of the A$$holes that ruin it for everyone.

I had a similar situation as you did Donald a few years back. Did an estimate on a reroof for a customer. Saw that the previous time it was shingled, they went right over top of the existing shingles. Customer, guaranteed me that it was only a single layer as he had done the work himself 20 some years ago. The estimate outlined the cost of removal for 1 and 2 layers. Thought everything was fine. Should have known better.(first warning to me) We begin the job and peel off the first layer to confirm that it was 2 layers. Head down the ladder to consult the customer. For warranty I would have to remove the other layer but I wanted to confirm that he was aware there was two layers. He wanted time to decide what he was gonna do. I said fine but you only got about 30 mins cuz then we will be ready to keep going.(2nd warning but too late now) He dickered the taxes out of the extra labour. I had 4 guys on the payroll plus myself and wanted to get going as the weather forecast was not exactly favorable and the last thing I needed was rain destroying his home interior and belongings. 

We managed to finish the job about 30 mins before a thunderstorm started. The customer said he was disappointed at the cost but was satisfied with the job. I billed him at month end and went on my way. Payment didn't arrive after the 30 day grace period. I rebilled for the next month with interest. No payment. After a 3rd monthly bill and a couple of weeks I called the customer regarding payment. He refused to pay because he said he was not satisfied. He wanted me to come over to look at the job. We arranged a time to meet and go over the work.

I went and looked at the job and the customer pointed out a slight discolouration of about 1/2 a bundle of shingles near the peak. As it turns out the shingles were the same colour code but came from different batches from the factory. Sometimes there is a slight discoloration when colors are switched at the factory. Majority of contractors and customers don't even notice. He wanted me to fix it. Now usually I would not have had an issue with doing so but after 4 months and not a dime I got a little stubborn. I explained to him that this cosmetic issue would require him to have it inspected by the manufacturer and that they would supply material cost and labour for the replacement of those shingles. However, it could take awhile. My supplier said they would credit my account if got it done but he didn't need to know this. He asked me why I wasn't gonna just fix it for him to make him a satisfied customer.

I had to explain to him that I had been carrying the cost of his home repair for 4 months and didn't have any guarantee that I would ever be paid. He got mad. I got mad. Unpleasant words were exchanged and I left. About a week later I got a phone call from him threatening legal action. Like Donald, I called his bluff, and said I had already talked to my lawyer. I gave him 48 hour notice to pay me in full or I would be coming over to take back my shingles. Payment arrived at my office within an hour. I sent one of my workers over to replace the discolored shingles. About 3 years later i received a phone call from a potential customer saying that I had been recommended by the aforementioned client. I had to tell that new potential client I was too busy. but I have often wondered why I would be referred after all of that mess.

Like investing. Customers and Contractors must due their Due dilligence.

Cheers!


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

That is strange he would give you a ref,the only thing i can think of is in a ''sick" way like a bully(he knew deep down he was being a cheap [email protected])He knew you were honest and upstanding(that's why he likely pulled the crap he did)The thing is when you challenge a personality like that and don't back down usually they will coil becuase that's exactly what they don't want to happen,like i said it's sick but you have his respect because you have a backbone and won't lye down.

It's the same as the school yard bully going around until he bumps into the few that don't flinch and ended up hammering him back....that's my physc take....agree with everything you said london


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Donald I did not mean physical revenge but maybe in the middle of the night put a sign on his lawn or something stating this person likes to rip off insurance companies or something to embarrass them.

I know somebody who does lawns and landscaping and would far prefer to work on a normal persons lawn then a some rich person. The reason is the rich person doesn't want to pay or wants a discount after the job is done and done right. For me personally I will discuss price with you before the job but will pay in full if the job is done right.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

donald said:


> That is strange he would give you a ref,the only thing i can think of is in a ''sick" way like a bully(he knew deep down he was being a cheap [email protected])He knew you were honest and upstanding(that's why he likely pulled the crap he did)The thing is when you challenge a personality like that and don't back down usually they will coil becuase that's exactly what they don't want to happen,like i said it's sick but you have his respect because you have a backbone and won't lye down.
> 
> It's the same as the school yard bully going around until he bumps into the few that don't flinch and ended up hammering him back....that's my physc take...


I found out shortly after that he was dying of a terminal illness. Cancer if I recall. Maybe he was trying to make peace before he met his maker



donald said:


> agree with everything you said london




No matter what your profession or trade there is always noise provided by the media or television (Marketplace, W5, Mike Holmes etc) to bring the small percentages of societal transgressions and injustices to light.

I personally am not a fan of Mike Holmes`s shows as I don't think he practices what he preaches (make sure you hire a journeyperson, yet for years he never was one himself). Furthermore, the cost of most of his work would never be accepted by customers, sometimes it borders on overkill, which is usually what got the customer in trouble in the first place as they would never agree to pay that kind of money for the work. I think his head has gotten a little swollen with his fame. I can speak from experience as I have been at events with him and his entourage before he was an international star and after. He has changed. I know he has a large following especially with the female demographic and originally his intentions were in the right place yet many in industry realize he is a glorified set designer. I apologize to those who may feel differently and are offended by my opinions. That is a drawback to living in a country with freedom of expression 

However, his shows are much better than other reno shows where they renovate your entire home in 30 mins with a limited budget. I am not trying to discredit the need for the awareness of scam artists and shoddy work but I find at times the program to be sensationalized and his solutions a little overboard. Also, more attention needs to be given to the inspections of this work by housing and building inspectors. Lastly, buyer beware. That being said, I am totally, disgusted and annoyed by people who discredit my (former) trade by acts on dishonesty and poor craftsmanship and feel sorry for any consumer that gets taken advantage of by these evil doers.

I much prefer Jim Caruk, but he is more for contractors or tradespeople considering contracting.

I have seen many posts on this forum of people seeking advice or being victimized and my heart goes out to them. I have also seen folks such as Donald pointing out errors in the building process and giving free advice in defense of his trade. (window installation, vapour barrier installation in basements etc) And for that I salute him.

Cheers!


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## gt45 (Feb 6, 2012)

Thier are plasitic stips on the back of shingels, 99.9% of roofers don't remove them, the strips cover tar that heats up in the sun and helps to glue or seal shingels togethier.

When the strips are left in place, they don't do a dam thing othier than to speed up the roofing process, when ever I redo a roof, I go as far to run glue, ie pl400, down the plywood seams or osb sheating and a quick dab over the nail holes before lying down tar or felt paper.

Flashing should allways be placed op top of the shingels, instead of running shingels over the flashing.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Those plastic strips are not to be removed,they are placed on the shingles so that the shingles in a bundle(21)do not stick together when you open it up(just enough of a barrier to keep them seperated)-the tar will seal through those.It is a myth! you do not remove those.Not to sure you know the ins and outs of roofing-flashing is stepped one on top of the other when running up a wall-when running into a wall the wall flashing is fastened overtop of the last shingle top and a cut strip is put over top to finish it otherwise it looks like crap having flashing exposed....pl glue and tar do not mix...your post makes no sense.Not trying to call you out but your not informed on roofing.


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## gt45 (Feb 6, 2012)

You called me out, thats fair.

I did not know tar will seap threw the plastic strips, how ever, when I did my roof, the worn shingels still had the plastic strips on them, tar had not seaped threw.

Who ever did my roof, just went over the existing shingles, as thats what the last person had done, and so on and so on.

Pl 400 will seal up spaces betwean the c clips in the osb, or plywood, no Im not running truck loads of pl arround the seams, just enough to cover any open spaces abought 3/4 of a inch, lol sorry, 3/8 of a inch!!!

Sheating on my roof was not tight, no where close to what is expected on a new home!

When felt or tar papper is rolled out, it will compress the PL into the seams as long as the pl is still wet.

Im not a roofer by trade, but I have re shingeld roofs for friends and family that are holding up just fine with out having to resort to roofing tar, or black jack. 

(no I don't glue down shingels with pl400)

Im too dam slow at roofing to make any money and I did think the plastic strips had to be removed, next time I roof, I ask some one smarter than me..


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

No sweet....just did not understand.Just going to throw you another tip the next time you do a re-roof,do not put carpenter glue between the h-clips!!that is wrong also(you can run a small bead on the truss seams but do not fill up the gap between the sheathing between the trusses.Reason being that the plywood needs "room" to slightly expand/contract in a four seasons enviroment if you glue every thing to bond together you will cause heaving and the roof will start to ripple underneath the shingles!That is the reason for the gap to begin with and why you use h-clips....you will cause a problem doing that.lol


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

gt45 said:


> Thier are plasitic stips on the back of shingels, 99.9% of roofers don't remove them, the strips cover tar that heats up in the sun and helps to glue or seal shingels togethier.
> ...


The need to remove these strips is a myth that sometimes catches amateurs who are doing their own roofing. The strips are just to keep the shingles from sticking to the little dabs of self-sealing cement (applied in a row on the upper face of each shingle) when they are in the package. When the shingles are applied they are offset so the cement is exposed to the underside of the next course.

PS: Tar does not eventually "seep through" the plastic. The 3-ft. wide strip covered in plastic is not a sealing strip at all.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

great-those tar dabs are sealers on the old 3-tab shingles(the new shingles now are from the underneath side)just think-why would they have them in the first place if they did'nt do anything?otherwise shingles would be bare and no tar would be anywhere.(trust me....ive done 100s of roofs)if im understanding what your saying.


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## gt45 (Feb 6, 2012)

One item has me confused. I understand the plastic strip is thier so the shingles don't stick to gethier in the bundel, but why do they make the strip with tar down the middle in the First place?

And I agree the sheeting can't be tight, as it needs to expand and contract, the majority of the roofs I have done were built in the late 1970s, early 1980s and not built to the standard of todays mim building codes.

Im starting my girl friends roof as weathier permits, next due to a nov 2011 windstorm that tore threw calgary, who ever did the roof prior to me being in the picture did not use tar paper, felt paper, or even starter strips.

Shingels are red three tab ugly looking step childs, may be 20 years old, going with IKO caimbridge 30s, driftwood or dual black, kinda a on going preferance for me.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

See:
http://www.nrca.net/consumer/types/asphalt.aspx

_Both 3-tab asphalt shingles and laminated asphalt shingles contain a strip of factory applied adhesive that is activated by the sun's heat after installation and seals each shingle to the next course. The seal strip also provides much of a shingle's resistance to wind uplift. Some shingles have a strip of cellophane applied to each shingle to prevent the sealing strips from bonding the shingles together when packaged. *When the shingles are installed, the self-sealing strips will not align with the cellophane strips and will bond to adjacent shingles. For this reason, the cellophane strips do not have to be removed.*_ 

The only quarrel I have with this description is the misleading reference to a "self-sealing strip". On most shingles it isn't a continuous "strip" at all, it's a row of intermittent dabs of cement. Those are the black dabs you see on the *Upper* face of the shingle, just above the nailing line.

See also www.donan.com/assets/files/selfSealingAsphalt-TechBulliten1-sealStrip.pdf


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

gt45 said:


> One item has me confused. I understand the plastic strip is thier so the shingles don't stick to gethier in the bundel, but why do they make the strip with tar down the middle in the First place?
> ...


See UTube video on how shingles are made. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbOzLHRu1MU

The "strip with tar" (under the cellophane) is just the ashphalt base of the shingle. The cellophane strip is applied to this sticky base before the back of the shingle is blasted with powdered stone (to keep the shingles from sticking to each other.).


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## gt45 (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you, I will check out the video, sorry for jumping on board sending the orginal post of track


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