# Any retirees "smile" when they say how their expenditures changed over time?



## janus10 (Nov 7, 2013)

*Any retirees "smile" when they say how their expenditures changed over time?*

Quite different results from what we are typically led to believe. Does anyone here have enough years in retirement to support/dispute these findings?

https://retirementresearcher.com/retirement-spending-smile/

I think my dad is the only example I know that has seen this, but that is because my mom and mother in law are completely reliant on government programs and have little left for discretionary spending. My wife and I have had to help them out occasionally and we are glad to be in a position to do so without thinking twice.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I have been retired for just over 10 years but I am only 67 currently. In my specific case, my spending approximately doubled in the first 5 years of retirement and is holding fast so far. That is because I have the health, energy and interest in travel and entertainment which is about 30-40% of our annual spend. I fully expect my T&E spend to start to decline give or take after I reach 70 and for overall spend to pretty much follow the pattern of the graph in the linked article thereafter. I know many couples at various ages in their 70's and 80's and if I take into consideration their physical health, they are more or less all following a similar pattern. Hopefully, the aqua line in Exhibit 2 won't hit me...ever, but realistically, I hope it doesn't hit before 80.


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## canew90 (Jul 13, 2016)

74 and retired 10 years. Prior to retirement we were spending about $55k to $75k per yr. Shortly after retirement we continued to spend close to $70k but our spending pattern changed. We did travel, bought a Motorhome, and started spending 4 to 6 months down south. We found it cheaper to live in the US and the cost of running the MH offset general expenses at home. Eventually we sold the MH and bought a Trailer in a RV Park. The Trailer was less than the MH as were living costs, so we had extra money and that provided cash to invest.

We sold our house four yrs ago and moved into a 55+ Condo. The money from the sale went into buying more of the stocks we already owned. Our general expenses dropped so we now spend $50k per year and are doing as much as we did when we were spending $75k. Even with inflation (the rise in prices we experience) we've managed to keep our expenses to $50k for the last 5 years.

What has changed is our Income. During the last 5 yrs of work we were earning $100k and saving 50%. When we retired we had just under $800k invested and GIC’s which was generating (reinvested) about $20k of income. We continued reinvesting the dividends, converted the GIC’s to stocks and added money from sale of MH and house. Our investment strategy was concentrated on Income Generation from a select group of stocks (we had about 22). Currently our income is just short of $100k from 19 stocks from our investments, so we consider our strategy as very successful. With cpp\oas and our dividends (we still reinvest about 60%), we’ll never have to spend the capital unless need for health care or unless we wish.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The increased spending at a later age seems to be tied to increased health care costs.

I have never considered future health care costs as a threat, because we have universal health care in Canada, senior health care programs, and we have a health care plan attached to our pensions. The plan includes prescriptions, dental, vision, orthopedic products, and a $1200 a month long term care benefit.

The benefits from the health care plan are getting nibbled away at though, and that is a concern. The long term benefit used to be $1800 a month, and amounts for dental and vision are capped. Fortunately, with the combination of senior benefit and health plan, we only pay 20% of the $100 a year co-pay for the senior plan and our prescriptions are paid 100% by either the senior or health plan. 

With the combination of a personal plan and the senior plan, should I consider future health care costs will still rise ?

What isn't covered that would be a concern ? Drugs for major illnesses aren't covered ?

I guess what I am asking is where does the increase in health care come from ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

On our retirement spending, it has increased as our income has increased with the additional benefits of CPP and OAS.

It always seems there is something to pay for, if not for ourselves then for someone else.


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## canew90 (Jul 13, 2016)

sags said:


> I have never considered future health care costs as a threat, because we have universal health care in Canada, senior health care programs, and we have a health care plan attached to our pensions. The plan includes prescriptions, dental, vision, orthopedic products, and a $1200 a month long term care benefit.


We have friends who need Full Time care and it's costing them $5,000 to $7,000 per month. If they relied upon gov't they would be in a 8x8 room tied to a chair.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

canew90 said:


> *We have friends who need Full Time care and it's costing them $5,000 to $7,000 per month*. If they relied upon gov't they would be in a 8x8 room tied to a chair.


 ... is that the cost of the personal care portion, exclusive of the living quarters or inclusive?


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## canew90 (Jul 13, 2016)

Full Time memory care units where individuals have dementia and is total cost. Single room, meals, full time nursing available.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

canew90 said:


> We have friends who need Full Time care and it's costing them *$5,000 to $7,000 per month*.
> 
> If they relied upon gov't they would be in a *8x8 room tied to a chair*.


Make that a wheelchair. :biggrin:

$60K to $84K a year? ..for 3 square meals a day, a bed and dementia too...good deal (NOT!)

A lot of "gold out thar" from those seniors living now in their "golden years"...if the retirement homes don't "steal it away" from them first, the gov't estate taxes ( in Ontario), and the lawyers handling their estates will make sure that they leave this world "almost" the same way they came in.."owning nothing!.... and... owing nothing!"


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I have always assumed increased health care spending in later years, if for no other reason than not wanting to be warehoused in a gov't ward. So $5-7k per month may not be over-the-top for a privately run, profit, or even non-profit, facility. 

Additionally, depending on what province one is in AND what one's income is for means tested benefits, there could be significant out-of-pocket drug costs. Even the gov't pharamacare programs have lifetime limits and certain drugs are not covered at all.

And if I have to wait 18 months for a hip replacement in our near bankrupt (eventually) health system, I'll go south for a replacement within 30 days.

The situation will be highly variable depending on the individual's needs, duration, and capacity to pay.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

We fully retired in 2004 and then paid some tax in 2005, so I have taken 2006 as the base year.

We bought a condo and sold our timeshare in 2007 but the only thing included is furniture and remodelling.

I suppose it is a droopy smile. The lower cost of living does show. Our trips to Europe will start to show up when our air mileage balances are used up.


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## Nelley (Aug 14, 2016)

What is your plan if instead of 5-7000 per month the price rises to 15-21000 per month? Are you willing to slave away and deprive yourself your whole life so they can make a fortune off your labour? My point is that the 5-7000 per month already seems like a major ripoff to me.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> I have always assumed increased health care spending in later years,* if for no other reason than not wanting to be warehoused in a gov't ward*. So $5-7k per month may not be over-the-top for a privately run, profit, or even non-profit, facility.
> 
> Additionally, depending on what province one is in AND what one's income is for means tested benefits, there could be significant out-of-pocket drug costs. Even the gov't pharamacare programs have lifetime limits and certain drugs are not covered at all.
> 
> The situation will be *highly variable depending on the individual's needs, duration, and capacity to pay*.


It's downright scary for those that will have very little assets in their lifetime to pay out all these exorbitant fees and costs.
After the baby boomers are gone (with their fat pensions and investments) a big segment of the population of Canada (ie: Ontario) that could perhaps afford to pay for their last few years of assisted living and heath care
costs...a HUGE segment of the population left will not be able to afford this..

...and so Canada (Ontario and other provinces), will have seniors with just OAS and GIS (maybe CPP if they are lucky), to be 'kicked to the curb", stuck in gov't run hostels with barely adequate health care.. basically waiting in their wheelchairs to die..of dementia or other serious health complications.

The Ontario Health system, already overloaded, will be basically broke with very little funding available to look after the no longer productive and highly expensive seniors that are still around.

Assisted suicide? Maybe?....or perhaps a more civil version of the movie "Soylent Green"..a futuristic movie (starring Charlton Heston) about the "ulitimate recycling scheme" ..get rid of all the useless seniors and process them..
...as "Soylent Green.. ahem..crackers" to be distributed to the hungry and able to work masses.:biggrin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Nelley said:


> What is your plan if instead of 5-7000 per month the price rises to 15-21000 per month? Are you willing to slave away and deprive yourself your whole life so they can make a fortune off your labour? My point is that the 5-7000 per month already seems like a major ripoff to me.


It is a crap shoot, so no, few would be prepared to starve their lives for a remote 'what if' for a $70k facility, nor should they. One doesn't know if they will drop from a heart attack while cycling the Appalachians or have a drawn out 10 year incapacitating decline. I suspect most? of us would try to plan for somewhere in between in that 40-60% spot in the bell curve. Life will deal the cards as they come and we can only mitigate where we can. 

My mother spent about 4 years in a new 55+ independent living facility (apartments) with home services like meds and housecleaning, and daily dinner, all for less than $2500/month. She was at the stage of having to go to assisted living when she died. I am hoping I can live independently until I die (perhaps in a 55+ place and more upscale than my mother was) but I am also realistic that there may well be some compromises if I have a slow decline and refuse to die.


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## canew90 (Jul 13, 2016)

Nelley said:


> What is your plan if instead of 5-7000 per month the price rises to 15-21000 per month? Are you willing to slave away and deprive yourself your whole life so they can make a fortune off your labour? My point is that the 5-7000 per month already seems like a major ripoff to me.


The price is realistic today if you want provide the ones you love descent care. We are in our 70's and fortunately our income is growing each year and should the time come where the cost is double I think we'll be able to handle it. As AltaRed said who knows what the future will bring. Better prepared for the worse than not.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

canew90 said:


> The price is realistic today if you want provide the ones you love descent care. We are in our 70's and fortunately our income is growing each year and should the time come where the cost is double I think we'll be able to handle it. As AltaRed said who knows what the future will bring. *Better prepared for the worse than not*.


Not everyone in the "seniors boat" is so lucky..my retirement income has shrunk about 45% in the last 7 years since Nortel went bankrupt in 2009.

After working for 25 years, I expected the DB company pension would be there for me until my death at 80+. 

Unfortunately for me, it has shrunk while costs have gone up. About the only thing I could afford right now is a gov't run LTC (shared room with hospital bed) to take care of me to the end of days. 

With the OAS/CPP meagre monthly payments , and even with a bit of GIS it wouldn't amount to much more than $2500 a month with my reduced pension.

Right now I don't qualify for GIS as I'm above the threshold, but when the the company pension dries up next year, when I'm faced with taking less of what is left (annuity or LIF), which will make it more difficult to spend the last years of my life , in what I would expect as a form of respectable lifestyle and care that I'm accustomed to.

This winter I had a quick experience of what it costs now for a month with assisted living $3500 (currently). 

There is no way I can afford those rates for very long.
I'm sure that there are a LOT of seniors out there, (or soon will be, when the next generation is facing the same retirement dilemma), that will be able to afford these rates either.


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## Nelley (Aug 14, 2016)

Lots of Europeans in that situation are relocating to Thailand or Philippines-better care at a fraction of the price.


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## canew90 (Jul 13, 2016)

carverman said:


> Not everyone in the "seniors boat" is so lucky..my retirement income has shrunk about 45% in the last 7 years since Nortel went bankrupt in 2009.
> 
> After working for 25 years, I expected the DB company pension would be there for me until my death at 80+.
> 
> ...


Sorry for you situation and I certainly hope things improve. Yes there are many seniors who cannot afford the cost that many of the assisted care facilities charge. 
We never had a DB pension and that was a major factor in our search for an investment strategy that would allow us to retire without financial worries. I guess we were lucky too have been able to save a fair amount and even more fortunate that we discovered the Connolly Report. For it was his strategy that we followed and that has provided us with a growing income even now at 74. All the best!


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Nelley said:


> Lots of Europeans in that situation are relocating to Thailand or Philippines-better care at a fraction of the price.


And there are lots of North Americans (ex-pats) heading to southern locales too (per the International Living website). There are enclaves in Mexico, Costa Rica, Belize, Ecuador, Panama, etc, etc, etc where retirees can live well on a considerably more modest budget. There are at least a few downsides that are NOT mentioned in many articles on such 'opportunities' and they include:
1) Quality of health care once one gets to that age where LTC is required and/or more medical procedures in general
2) Lack of family support/advocacy for someone who is vulnerable in these foreign systems
3) The cost of becoming an ex-oat to begin with, e.g. deemed disposition of capital assets in taxable accounts

One can get around some of the above by having a lifeline back to their home country, but then one ends up only being an ex-pat half the time in order to maintain residency in their home country, a not inexpensive endeavour.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> One can get around some of the above by having a lifeline back to their home country, but then one ends up only being an ex-pat half the time in order to maintain residency in their home country, a not inexpensive endeavour.


We spend 5 summer months in Canada, one month is Europe, and 6 months in Mexico. We limit our absence to 212 days to stay onside with BC Medical Plan (our health insurer insists). We rent our Vancouver place each year. So far so good.


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## Nelley (Aug 14, 2016)

Alta: Supposedly the LTC facilities in the Far East are far cheaper and actually higher quality. IMO people forget that what you get here for the high price isn't much at all.


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## janus10 (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks to everyone for their input on this and in other threads.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

canew90 said:


> Sorry for you situation and I certainly hope things improve. Yes there are *many seniors who cannot afford the cost that many of the assisted care facilities charge.*


On my temporary experience with these "for profit" group homes:

Nor the additional services that these expensive retirement homes charge. They start at a basic rate and then go up from there.
If you can get around with a walker, and you don't have the early stages of dementia where you have to pay for help with your medication (ie:your prescription pills given at your bedside), or haircuts, or foot care, or shaving or any dental work... well, you get the point....the monthly costs if you can look after yourself may
be affordable in some cases..but if you need ANY assistance in your daily routine(s)...
....watch those basic rates climb to another $1000 to $1500 a month or even more.

On top of that, as I discovered for 3 days, especially on weekends with less staff to go around to help you when you push the pendant they give you..you get the annunciator answer.."Hold on, we have other patients to look after first!
you have to be patient, even if you need to go to the bathroom!"...
just sit there ..(in your < >) ..you don't get priority service here"

10 minutes goes by,..30 minutes..I press the pendant again..their answer .. " we are dealing with other patients right now..we will get to you soon", (the nerve of them!)..finally I struggle on my own to get on/off the toilet. 

After 3 days of that weekend, I call my neighbour to move out my stuff out of the room..and take para taxi home in my power chair.

For this service, they wanted $950 a week out of my own pocket. My 3 pensions now are barely $2400 a month after taxes.
Shortfall: $3500 -$2400 = *$1100 a month ($13,200 a year)*

Even if I could afford to give up all my present monthly pension income, not have any extra for personal spending..where would I find an extra $1100 a month to subsidize a permanent stay in assisted living homes? 
Rhetorical question here: Would the federal/provincial gov'ts come up with the rest?


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## canew90 (Jul 13, 2016)

carverman said:


> Even if I could afford to give up all my present monthly pension income, not have any extra for personal spending..where would I find an extra $1100 a month to subsidize a permanent stay in assisted living homes?
> Rhetorical question here: Would the federal/provincial gov'ts come up with the rest?


Not a good situation. There are Prov extended care homes here in AB but the waiting list is long and I don't know their fee structure.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The Ontario government will subsidize the cost for people in nursing homes. They do financial and health assessments.

In our area, there is a system in place to assess the needs and find the best solution.

It could be daily visitations from a health nurse, PSW, and meals on wheels or placement in a nursing home.

There is a waiting list and people are assigned to openings in homes, so choice of home is often limited.

The government doesn't subsidize living in a retirement home, which is like living in a nice hotel.

My wife works p/t in a retirement home. They have nice suites, menus and waiters in the dining hall, and an activity director.

The residents come and go as they please. Many own vehicles, but the home also owns their own transit bus.

The cost is $3500 a month and up. A nursing home costs about $2100 a month I believe.

When residents require more care they are moved to nursing homes. The retirement homes aren't a long term care facility.

I think the choices would look like this..........

Home looking after yourself..........home with help..........retirement home...........nursing home.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Here is a nice retirement home in Vancouver's west side. 1 BR suite for 2 is $5990/mo. Best to maintain independent living as long as possible!


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

canew90 said:


> Not a good situation. There are Prov extended care homes here in AB but the *waiting list is long and I don't know their fee structure.*


Most of the gov't sponsered LTC (OHIP in Ontario) have a very long waiting list of seniors that can no longer look after themselves,and are a financial burden to their families as well.

This will only get worse as more and more of them need assisted care.

I think with assisted suicide available finally, perhaps the option should be available to those also that can't afford even the gov't run LTC if they have no other choices... such as sit in their wheelchairs waiting to die in some alley way..or sleep on a park bench.:biggrin:

The gov'ts are creating a financial quagmire, not really wanting to subsidize the masses as the baby boomers are at that stage, and really don't know how to handle it. 

If the senior has enough resources on their own, then it's not a problem for some ..as long as their money doesn't run out...

...but imagine a worse case scenario where the senior can't afford to pay anymore, AND all the equity from their home (if they even owned one in the first place), runs out AND it's in the Canadian winter..-20c or colder?

Will the "for profit" assisted living seniors homes kick them out in the cold? 

and tell the poor senior, sick and needing 24/7 care...
"You can't afford to pay us? Get out you bum!..go look for somewhere else..we need to use your space for a paying client"!

I know this sounds like a ridiculously harsh treatment, but it could happen.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

sags said:


> The Ontario government will subsidize the cost for people in nursing homes. They do financial and health assessments.
> 
> In our area, there is a system in place to assess the needs and find the best solution.
> 
> ...


Aye! and there is the "rub"...



> The government doesn't subsidize living in a retirement home, which is like living in a nice hotel.


*So in essence, we have tiered classes of retirement homes:*
*1. $5,000 a month (or more) *for the wealthy that have had the good fortune 
and good investments in their lives, or held key positions in life and drawing on lucrative pensions and investments.

*2. $3000 or more,* for those that have homes paid off that they can sell, and have reasonable investments (RRSPs/TFSAs etc) where they getting that $3000 a month. Shouldn't be a problem for the rest of their days either.

*3. $2000+ *for those that have no adequate investments, but maybe a house paid off, and they can sell and draw on the equity from the house

4. and finally those that have basically nothing in property or investments and draw a small OAS/GIS and maybe a small CPP pension, if they are lucky.



> My wife works p/t in a retirement home. They have nice suites, menus and waiters in the dining hall, and an activity director.
> The residents come and go as they please. Many own vehicles, but the home also owns their own transit bus.
> 
> The cost is *$3500 a month and up. A nursing home costs about $2100 a month I believe.*
> ...


Nursing home..yes that will be the one for some of us when our money runs out and we can no longer even wipe our.....

*Yer resident fly on the wall again:*

*Nursing home director to nursing home care giver (PSW) ;* "did you check on Mr/Mrs Jones today?

*Nursing home shift care giver:* No I didn't , I was overrun with the demands of the others on my shift..yelling for this, screaming for that!

*Nursing home director:* Can you find out why she/hes not at the breakfast table this morning..check her/his room!

* Nursing home care giver: * Oh it looks like Mr/Mrs Jones has passed away, probably because I didn't have a chance yesterday to give the necessary heart medication

*Nursing home director: * Good work then, just cover up that up that we are short staffed and attribute it to death by natural causes, not being ignored please.
Ok! Next please! Who is next? We need to fill that void, so the gov't will pay us for the space!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

kcowan said:


> We spend 5 summer months in Canada, one month is Europe, and 6 months in Mexico. We limit our absence to 212 days to stay onside with BC Medical Plan (our health insurer insists). We rent our Vancouver place each year. So far so good.


Very nice  ... In theory we're planning to do similar ..only more time in Europe and less in Mexico......
Did you consider going to some S.American countries like Ecuador or Columbia... ?

P.S. Interesting option is a long-term vacation at Cuba
http://seniorholidaytravel.com/long-stay-winter-holidays-in-cuba/


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## Nelley (Aug 14, 2016)

Yeah-the Canadian winter is really hard on older people-this country simply doesn't have the climate to make retirement homes workable IMO.


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## Amythyst (Aug 3, 2016)

WE are newly retired and things are going very well so far. I do have some input as to care homes and such as I just went through this with my father.
We live in BC
My Dad was living in an assisted living facility (apartment and food) very well for years. His military pension, CPP and OAS more than covered his costs, which were (and this is a rate he was grandfathered in at) about $2100 a month...great deal in the Maple Ridge area. Nice place, decent food....
Then, two years ago my Dad had a stroke at the age of 82. It was devastating...in very good health one minute, no speech and right side debilitated the next. He was in rehab for a long time but he managed to do well enough that he was able to return to his room with some extra help. I was paying $18/hr for someone to give dad his meds and just check on him morning and night. Dad started falling (he was using a walker) so I had to get more hours for taking him to and from his meals. Then bathing, shaving, and more....
That $18/hour was a really good deal.

I could see his decline, so I had the local health authority assess him as you must have an assessment to get into long term care. The first assessment was ok, but I asked for a second a few months later and made sure to take the long drive down to make sure everything was done properly (Dad could easily hide things that were happening to him...he could muster superhuman strength to prove he was ok...) The second time they agreed that he should be put on the waiting list. Now, I was in a different health authority...of course, and I wanted him closer to me so that was a lot of paperwork and fun, but I did it. In the meantime I had put him on a waiting list for Long Term Care here, on a private pay room. As someone mentioned earlier there are waiting lists!! I was told a year at the facility I wanted for him (best in town, private room). I knew that if he was in the facility already it would help. I got a call that a room was available for him, private pay (he pays the whole shot, no government help) and I jumped on it. I moved him here (not a fun job, horrid really) and got him settled...at $195 a day!! He had to pay $2000 above his pension amounts to cover this. Thankfully he had the funds. I knew, as his POA, that he had money enough for many years. A public room will look at your income (they look at income tax information) and you pay a percentage of your income for the room.

The $195 a day did not cover medications, incontinence products, haircuts, footcare, dental care....

The food, although it seemed ok when he first arrived, was really ugly. Dad lived with very handicapped people and it made him very sad and angry. They seemed short staffed and undertrained...I was always in someone's office complaining. At least he was close by and I could take him out for drives and stuff.

Sadly my father passed away just three months in..

Know also that if you are on a waiting list you are likely to get a shared room and not the best facility. My MIL ended up in a room with three others, all they had was a bed and a small closet....
That is not the way I want to go.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just curious how much on average cost normal (at least private room with washroom and meals) long term care facility in Ontario? 

Close to my mom's apartment, there is temporary LTC (up to 90 days per year).
http://www.halton.ca/cms/One.aspx?portalId=8310&pageId=10658
with private room with washroom and meals) ... the cost is very reasonable $38/day


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Very nice  ... In theory we're planning to do similar ..only more time in Europe and less in Mexico......
> Did you consider going to some S.American countries like Ecuador or Columbia... ?


Yes we looked seriously at Uruguay on the Atlantic north of Punta del Este.


Nelley said:


> Yeah-the Canadian winter is really hard on older people-this country simply doesn't have the climate to make retirement homes workable IMO.


In fact, seniors deaths peak in February. So get on the wait list in January!


Amythyst said:


> Know also that if you are on a waiting list you are likely to get a shared room and not the best facility. My MIL ended up in a room with three others, all they had was a bed and a small closet....
> That is not the way I want to go.


Yes MIL was in semi-private for 8 years. Not a pleasant experience. Thefts and bruises. Former neighbour is in a private room in Lynne Valley, doing better.



gibor365 said:


> Just curious how much on average cost normal (at least private room with washroom and meals) long term care facility in Ontario?
> 
> Close to my mom's apartment, there is temporary LTC (up to 90 days per year).
> http://www.halton.ca/cms/One.aspx?portalId=8310&pageId=10658
> with private room with washroom and meals) ... the cost is very reasonable $38/day


Neighbour above pays 80% of his income.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Neighbour above pays 80% of his income.


 doesn't tell much ...as it depends on income...



> Yes we looked seriously at Uruguay on the Atlantic north of Punta del Este.


 curious why you didn't go there?! 
I talked to many people from S. America and understand that in that region Chile and Uruguay are the most safe and stable countries.... Would like to go there for long-term vacation


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> curious why you didn't go there?!
> I talked to many people from S. America and understand that in that region Chile and Uruguay are the most safe and stable countries.... Would like to go there for long-term vacation


Clearly the best spot for us in SA. But we decided that it was too far from Vancouver. OK for us twice a year but too far for visitors. Plus we see many friends who come to PV on 1 and 2 week all inclusive deals. From all over. The only bad month is August when it gets foggy! Same latitude as Capetown and Sidney.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Just curious how much on average cost normal (at least private room with washroom and meals) long term care facility in Ontario?
> 
> Close to my mom's apartment, there is temporary LTC (up to 90 days per year).
> with private room with washroom and meals) ... the cost is very reasonable $38/day


Yes it certainly seems reasonable at that price per day. That works out to $1140 a month, but this is
short time respite care..like for a broken hip or injuries from a fall. 

Seems like it's subsidized at that rate by the gov't, Ministry of Health and Long Term Care (MOHLTC). The cost is currently $37.77 per day (subject to change by the MOHLTC).
Which means it requires an income and health care assessment by CCAC and a LONG waiting list to get in.

In Ontario the median for a LTC is around $2100 to $2400 a month depending on the area and income and health care requirements.

People with mobility issues after strokes or other types of chronic problems will require 24/7 round the clock care and there is ALWAYS be a challenge to get them into a LTC at affordable rates without supplementing their care out of your own pocket.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Amythyst said:


> My Dad was living in an assisted living facility (apartment and food) very well for years. His military pension, CPP and OAS more than covered his costs, which were (and this is a rate he was grandfathered in at) about $2100 a month...great deal in the Maple Ridge area. Nice place, decent food....


Decent food? That doesn't sound bad. The retirement home I was "visiting" for 3 days this past February, was serving hot dogs (no condiments either) and potato chips from a large bag for lunch or soup as a second choice. I was surprised at that considering the "sample menu" they gave me in their brochure mentioned much nicer food . It didn't get much better for the 3-4 days I was there either. Just trying to maximize their
profit margins off the seniors, most with various stages of dementia.
Breakfast was always the same, toast, juice coffee or tea,scrambled eggs and lots of fatty bacon...
mmm fatty greasy bacon...good for boosting the colesterol in your arteries!



> Then, two years ago my Dad had a stroke at the age of 82. It was devastating...in very good health one minute, no speech and right side debilitated the next. He was in rehab for a long time but he managed to do well enough that he was able to return to his room with some extra help. I was paying $18/hr for someone to give dad his meds and just check on him morning and night. Dad started falling (he was using a walker) so I had to get more hours for taking him to and from his meals. Then bathing, shaving, and more....
> That $18/hour was a really good deal.


The $18 a hour is a good deal. I'm paying $20 an hour out of pocket for a PSW to come in twice a week these days to do things I can no longer do from a wheelchair...such as showers, laundry, make up beds and clean the floors. 



> I could see his decline, so I had the local health authority assess him as you must have an assessment to get into long term care. I got a call that a room was available for him, private pay (he pays the whole shot, no government help) and I jumped on it. I moved him here (not a fun job, horrid really) and got him settled...at* $195 a day!*! H*e had to pay $2000 above his pension amounts to cover this*. Thankfully he had the funds. I knew, as his POA, that he had money enough for many years. A public room will look at your income (they look at income tax information) and you pay a percentage of your income for the room.


$195 a day?, that's $1365 a week! 
I *was* going to have to pay $950 a week for "assisted living" (short term for 30 days) during my recuperation after a hospital stay. That's $3800 a month and the total of all my pensions is about $2400. That would result in a $1400 a month shortfall! I checked myself out after the weekend stay.

$195 a day, but do you get the care that you are paying for?
This is what I'm dreading in later years. With the LTC costs going up with these "for profit" retirement homes, if you don't have the financial resources to pay for everything, you will end up suffering in your last days in some gov't assisted hospital ward facility!



> The $195 a day did not cover medications, incontinence products, haircuts, footcare, dental care....


Of course not, everything else except your bed and 3 meals a day IS EXTRA! 
They also charge to administer any medications, as most dementia inmates can't look after that either.



> *The food, although it seemed ok when he first arrived, was really ugly.* Dad lived with very handicapped people and it made him very sad and angry. T*hey seemed short staffed and undertrained.*..I was always in someone's office complaining. At least he was close by and I could take him out for drives and stuff.


Not really surprised. I discovered the same thing after 3 days and checked myself out and went back by
wheelchair/para-taxi to my own home. Even though I could only use one of my hands for a while
(with help from a PSW agency) I was able to recover faster and it was a lot more pleasant recovery in the
privacy of my own home (with my cat,computer and big screen TV etc.

I just hated lying on the bed in my room with the thin walls with no real soundproofing, noise in the hallways
due to staff attending to dementia patients all times of the night, and other disturbances.
The pillows were uncomfortable, the toilet was not set up for me and the door to my room could be opened
by staff anytime during the day or night. 



> Sadly my father passed away just three months in..


Sorry for your loss. But in my mind, it is better to die in your sleep than "wait to die in a wheelchair" in
one of these so called "assisted living" types of places. It can be torture for the last few days of your life!



> Know also that if you are on a waiting list you are likely to get a shared room and not the best facility. *My MIL ended up in a room with three others,* all they had was a bed and a small closet....
> That is not the way I want to go.


Now I would hate that! Three other people in beds next to you with just a curtain sometimes in hospital
ward style accommodation. Snoring, patients talking in their sleep, screaming for a nurse, and all of
the other body functions that would require the lights to come on in the room for orderly or attendant
to see the patients needs. 

Lost sleep, lack of sleep..that could even bring on early stages of dementia..
Something I'm not looking forward too in later years.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Yes it certainly seems reasonable at that price per day.


 That's what I mean .... I pass through this facility every week when visiting my mom...and at least from outside it looks very nice and located in nice area.



> That works out to $1140 a month, but this is
> *short time respite care..like for a broken hip or injuries from a fall.*
> 
> Seems like it's subsidized at that rate by the gov't, Ministry of Health and Long Term Care (MOHLTC). The cost is currently $37.77 per day (subject to change by the MOHLTC).
> Which means it requires an income and health care assessment by CCAC and a *LONG waiting list to get in*.


Doesn't really make sense  if it's a LONG wait, broken hip will heeled already 

I thought that this facilty for cases when family is leaving city for some time and cannot take care of senior ...



> In Ontario the median for a LTC is around $2100 to $2400 a month depending on the area


 Shouldn't it be cheaper and shorter waiting list further from GTA? Like in Halton, Waterloo, Hamilton areas?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> That's what I mean .... I pass through this facility every week when visiting my mom...and at least from outside it looks very nice and located in nice area.
> 
> Doesn't really make sense  if it's a LONG wait, broken hip will heeled already


Not for an 80 yrs old person, the immune system is weak and so is the bone healing process.Takes anywhere from 6 months to a year for a hip joint (especially with osteoporosis to heal and even then it's usually a surgical hip joint replacement.



> I thought that this facilty for cases when family is leaving city for some time and cannot take care of senior ...


Well maybe, but you still have to deal with the gov't entities that have to assess you for LTC and respite care.

From my experience with them (CCAC) last fall , it was just a PITA. They couldn't even manage to get me any extra home care from their assessments for me. 1hr per day is all I got and that was basically enough
time to do a sponge bath or a shower if able to take one. They don't do any lifting of patients.
Now in the LTC, there are more personal care workers, so it may be different, but I was disappointed with
the service CCAC was providing for me through a health care contractor.
Now I just pay for PSW services out of my own pocket which actually works out to about $40 a day for 2 hrs.

If the Ministry of Health Long Term Care use CCAC to assess whether LTC is required..good luck there. 



> Shouldn't it be cheaper and shorter waiting list further from GTA? Like in Halton, Waterloo, Hamilton areas?


Depends on the demand in that area...just because they advertise $38 per day does not mean you will get that room for $38 a day. You are also assessed on your ability to pay..if you have the resources to pay more for her LTC health care, they will probably charge you ..or her.. more. 

If she has no Canadian pensions, but financial resources (bank accounts), the ministry will ask to do an "affordability assessment" to determine how much she.. (and you).. will pay for her care in a LTC.

The short term thing 30-90 days is just that. Those prices may be there so that any senior on a meagre Gov't OAS/GIS pension with no other source of income, so they can still stay in those places for $38 a day short term, until more "affordable/suitable accommodation" hospital ward (2 to a room minimum) can be found.




> This Respite Care Program is subsidized by the Ministry of Health and Long Term Care (MOHLTC). The cost is currently $37.77 per day (subject to change by the MOHLTC)
> 
> *How do I Apply for Respite Care at Allendale?
> *
> Contact the Community Care Access Centre (CCAC) of Mississauga/Halton Link to external site at to apply for Respite Care. T*he CCAC will work with you to complete the required paperwork.* Visit the CCAC web site for additional information (external link)





> *Costs
> If the person you care for qualifies for services coordinated by the Community Care Access Centre (CCAC), in-home respite is paid by the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care.
> 
> If you are not eligible, you can arrange these services from various providers for a fee.*


https://www.ontario.ca/page/temporary-respite-care-caregivers


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