# Best country for a retiree?



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The answer to that question depends a great deal on how you ask the question.

A simple Google search for 'best country for retirees' takes you to a plethora of links that in fact all focus on 'cheapest countries to retire in'. 
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...hUKEwj37IPz8uLnAhWKITQIHXm6BwkQ4dUDCAs&uact=5

It's almost impossible to find any other kind of lists. You have to dig real hard to find sites like this one:
https://www.thestreet.com/retirement/best-countries-for-retirees-dorger-gallery-120419

I found that one by searching for, 'best country for happy healthy retirement.' Even then, most of the same links to 'cheap' countries to retire to all show up.

While cost of living is an important consideration for any retiree, it is not the same thing as quality of living. Interestingly, when you look towards qualify of living and other factors besides cost of living, the best places to BE a retiree are nothing like the list for 'cheapest' places. 

Whenever someone talks about where to retire, I always say the answer is the best FIRST world country you can AFFORD to live in AND can obtain legal residency. Canada is in the top 10 countries to BE a retiree in by that standard as shown in the second link and you don't even have to leave home to retire there!

To determine which countries you can afford to live in, assuming you can afford to live in Canada as a retiree, take a look at this Numbeo list. I like Numbeo for these kind of stats since they are collected from real people living in each country.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp

If you compare the two lists, what you will find is that in fact all of the other top 10 best countries to BE a retiree in have a higher cost of living than Canada. Which makes Canada the 'cheapest' country to be a retiree in of the top 10 countries to BE a retiree in. 

I bet you didn't know just how lucky you were to be a Canadian as a retiree. I think that too often when considering this question of where to live in retirement, people look only at cost of living and do not give enough thought to quality of living overall.


----------



## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Just to bad that probably none of us will be alive when global warming makes this a paradise.


----------



## curioso (Nov 22, 2018)

I often look at the numbers listed on Numbeo and find silly discrepancies with real life numbers. 

Back on the subject, Portugal has been on the news a lot recently. Im actually living here now (will be for a little while) but not really retired... just taking some time off the "rat's race" to rethink my life's priorities. So far, loving it all here.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

curioso said:


> I often look at the numbers listed on Numbeo and find silly discrepancies with real life numbers.
> 
> Back on the subject, Portugal has been on the news a lot recently. Im actually living here now (will be for a little while) but not really retired... just taking some time off the "rat's race" to rethink my life's priorities. So far, loving it all here.


Presumably you have a way to live their legally beyond the 90 day tourist limit curioso.

Numbeo is not perfect but it is real life reported numbers. I guess it is like asking someone here, 'how much is a 5 lb. bag of potatoes', you will get variances in the answers. Like any data, you always have to pay attention to the details. With Numbeo for example, you want to look at how many people have contributed to the numbers for a given place. If only 10 people have reported the price of potatoes that isn't as reliable as an average price reported by 1000 people.

I also use other sources to compare with as well. It also depends on what you consider a necessity and what you are comparing. So for example, an average rent in a small town in Portugal cannot really be compared to an average rent in Toronto, it would have to be compared to the average rent in a small town in Ontario. Apples to apples. At the same time, if the average rental in a small town in Portugal did not include something you consider a necessity like say air conditioning, then again it is not comparing apples to apples.

Data is only as good as your ability to interpret it.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

curioso said:


> I often look at the numbers listed on Numbeo and find silly discrepancies with real life numbers.
> 
> Back on the subject, Portugal has been on the news a lot recently. Im actually living here now (will be for a little while) but not really retired... just taking some time off the "rat's race" to rethink my life's priorities. So far, loving it all here.


x2 for Portugal. But don't go there if you're a hardcore conservative.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> Just to bad that probably none of us will be alive when global warming makes this a paradise.


Userkare, define 'paradise'. 

I used to live in a place that had a climate where you might see 20c on Xmas Day. You might also see 40C on a day in July or August. You could never go skiing or tobogganing, no snow. Paradise is defined by the individual, there is not a 'one size fits all' definition. 

Even though I don't particularly like cold weather, there are ways that I enjoy it, like snowshoeing or skiiing. Even though I don't particularly like hot, humid weather, it adds to the enjoyment of diving into a swimming pool or lake. Seeing things start to bloom in Spring is enjoyable as is seeing the trees turn colour in the Fall. All seasons have some things I like about them and some things I accept as part of the package.

Paradise in the sense of being perfect year round, exists nowhere Userkare, there are always pros and cons of one kind or another.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

fstamand said:


> x2 for Portugal. But don't go there if you're a hardcore conservative.


I have nothing against Portugal fstamand but it doesn't even make it into the top 25 countries to BE a retiree in. So on what basis are you suggesting it as a good place to BE a retiree in? Are you just doing the 'it's cheaper' route?

Scroll down to page 16 on the following link to see the top 25 countries to BE a retiree in. https://www.im.natixis.com/us/resources/global-retirement-index-2019-report

The point of the thread is that there is no better place to be a retiree in than Canada except countries where the cost of living is HIGHER, no better place is CHEAPER.

What I'm trying to get at for people considering moving to another country in retirement, is that while they may find a lower cost of living they will in fact be giving up factors that impact quality of life in exchange. So it is cost vs. quality and nowhere will give you lower cost than Canada without also giving you lower quality. I think that people don't all look at both sides of the equation.


----------



## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

For me I think I would prefer

+6 months in Canada for summer and another season or 2
-90 days Europe ideally shoulder season in the south
Remainder of winter in the southern hemisphere


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

AU and NZ are too long a flight for 3-5 months in winter, as is Capetown, though I really like the area south of Capetown, so where in South America? Chile would be preferable to Argentina primarily because Argentina has never got its **** together but I do not like the prospect of a Chilean earthquake either.


----------



## fstamand (Mar 24, 2015)

Longtimeago said:


> I have nothing against Portugal fstamand but it doesn't even make it into the top 25 countries to BE a retiree in. So on what basis are you suggesting it as a good place to BE a retiree in? Are you just doing the 'it's cheaper' route?
> 
> Scroll down to page 16 on the following link to see the top 25 countries to BE a retiree in. https://www.im.natixis.com/us/resources/global-retirement-index-2019-report


No not necessarily. I spent last summer there and fell in love with the people, the food, the culture. Weather is very nice too. Places around Lagos is gaining much popularity

I have a feeling you didn't like my answer; everything is subjective :excitement: I recommend you get a short list of places that attracts YOU and start a visit!


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Variety of countries is always much better than stuck in one place no matter where...no reason to pick one country to retire to.


----------



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/no_country_for_old_men


----------



## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> AU and NZ are too long a flight for 3-5 months in winter, as is Capetown, though I really like the area south of Capetown, so where in South America? Chile would be preferable to Argentina primarily because Argentina has never got its **** together but I do not like the prospect of a Chilean earthquake either.


Chile is the closest I've seen to basically being a first world country in Latin America. Safe, great infrastructure and you won't find a major city that is more prepared for big earthquakes than Santiago. Being the same latitude south of the equator as LA is north of it , the weather can't be beat from Oct-March. The majority of my wife's siblings and their families have settled there after getting out of Venezuela so spending some time down there in the winter months is definitely on our radar after I retire soon. Looking forward to renting a place and just existing, drinking wine, and seeing more of the country than we did on our first visit there a few years ago. I just hope that given the recent protests that some smooth talking socialist does not arrive and get elected and take the country down the toilet.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> For me I think I would prefer
> 
> +6 months in Canada for summer and another season or 2
> -90 days Europe ideally shoulder season in the south
> Remainder of winter in the southern hemisphere


That's fine m3s but you are not talking about LIVING in another country are you. You are talking about continuing to have your home in Canada and simply visiting other places for longer than a normal vacation period of time. Snowbirding in other words. The only factor you are really looking at is weather. This thread is directed primarily at people who are contemplating LIVING in another country. 

For example, some Canadians retire and then move to places like Costa Rica, Mexico, Panama, full time. They do so partly for weather but usually the primary attraction is the lower cost of living. They do not prioritize things like healthcare, infrastructure, crime, etc. They see the pluses but give less thought to the minuses if they even consider them at all.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

fstamand said:


> No not necessarily. I spent last summer there and fell in love with the people, the food, the culture. Weather is very nice too. Places around Lagos is gaining much popularity
> 
> I have a feeling you didn't like my answer; everything is subjective :excitement: I recommend you get a short list of places that attracts YOU and start a visit!


I don't like or dislike your answer fstamand. You seem to still be missing the point. It is about LIVING in a country full time, not visiting for a few months. There are plenty of places where I can enjoy a visit to experience 'the people, the food, the culture' but that doesn't mean it would be a better place to LIVE in retirement.

As for your suggestion I visit a few places, I have already LIVED in half a dozen different countries and visited a great many more. I'm not looking for a place to live in retirement, I have LIVED in them and made what is probably my final choice. You visited Portugal in the summer. Why not try LIVING there for several years and then tell us about your experience.

I lived in Greece for several years for example. Not unlike Portugal in many ways. In summer and in fact for about 8-9 months of the year it was great. But in the other 3 months, while it was never really very cold, it rained and was damp. What did that mean in terms of living there? Well, how do you feel about mould being on the walls of your bedroom because of the way they construct buildings? Or no reliable hot water for a shower because they rely primarily on roof top solar to produce hot water. Or the cost of electric heat in the country because having a furnace of any kind is almost unheard of. They use small portable heaters and move them from room to room in many cases.

Or year round, a health care system where the norm is for relatives to bring in food for the patients and help them to go to the bathroom because there are not enough staff in the hospital. A bit of an issue when you have retired there from another country and have no relatives to care for you as you get older. Nor are you likely to find an 'Assisted Living' facility for seniors you can move into. Again, the family is expected to care for their elderly relatives, at home.

You cannot take a 'visit' as being enough to tell you what it is like to LIVE in a country full time as a retiree. Only a retiree living in a country can tell you what that is like and that obviously is not you.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

LTA, maybe no one here cares about living full time in another country. There would be no reason to be an active participant in a Cdn money forum for any length of time if they were permanently shedding their Cdn ties for years or decades.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> AU and NZ are too long a flight for 3-5 months in winter, as is Capetown, though I really like the area south of Capetown, so where in South America? Chile would be preferable to Argentina primarily because Argentina has never got its **** together but I do not like the prospect of a Chilean earthquake either.


One of the criteria I personally use to rate a country for retirement AltaRed is what I call the 'flush toilet' criteria. In other words, I want to live in a house with a flush toilet, not an outhouse. Similarly, I also use the 'bars on windows' criteria. That one rules out South Africa big time. Not only do they have bars on the windows, they have barbed wire and broken glass on top of the fences or walls that surround their houses. That tells me all I need to know about crime there.

If you are a woman, you can move to a Greek island and walk down a street in town at 3am with very little risk of trouble. You can't even do that in Toronto. You sure as heck can't do it in South Africa. The point being, there are degrees of risk to the various pros and cons of a place and it is wise to consider as many as you can if you are looking at a country to retire in. A woman may have no need to walk down a street at 3am anywhere but there may be another factor that is important to consider. Like, do I feel safe even driving down the street after dark to go and get a quart of milk for my coffee. 

There is no way I would ever consider South Africa a good choice for a country to retire in. I can't speak to Chile or Argentina as I have no real knowledge of either.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Eder said:


> Variety of countries is always much better than stuck in one place no matter where...no reason to pick one country to retire to.


That's fine Eder but not the point of the thread as I have said. People DO pick one country to retire in and that is the topic, which country?


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

LTA, I did say south of Capetown. There are plenty of wealthy retiree enclaves in the far south. Almost entirely white and European. Dont care though since I have zero interest being a permanent resident anywhere but Canada


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

diharv said:


> Chile is the closest I've seen to basically being a first world country in Latin America. Safe, great infrastructure and you won't find a major city that is more prepared for big earthquakes than Santiago. Being the same latitude south of the equator as LA is north of it , the weather can't be beat from Oct-March. The majority of my wife's siblings and their families have settled there after getting out of Venezuela so spending some time down there in the winter months is definitely on our radar after I retire soon. Looking forward to renting a place and just existing, drinking wine, and seeing more of the country than we did on our first visit there a few years ago. I just hope that given the recent protests that some smooth talking socialist does not arrive and get elected and take the country down the toilet.


Again, Snowbirding is not living in a country full time which is the topic. The thing with Snowbirding is that you can always go HOME if you have a reason to do so. Whereas those who MOVE to another country fulltime, cannot as readily do that. My experience is that often people find their retirement 'paradise' is not such a paradise after all but they then can't afford to move back. If they return home, real estate prices have gone up and they can't afford to buy back into the market. 

Or for example, you sell in Toronto, move to Costa Rica for the 'Pura Vida' (pure life). Then they discover there are some things they hadn't considered. Like if you decide to travel back to Canada for a longer period of time to visit etc. that on your return to Costa Rica, squatters have moved into your house and you cannot easily evict them. So no, you cannot just go back to Canada to spend the summer with friends and relatives without knowing you have to hire a caretaker for your property (and make sure you get monthly receipts from the caretaker to insure the caretaker doesn't turn into a squatter with rights). As a place to Snowbird, it would be even worse if you buy a property. It's gonna cost you money every year to hire a caretaker in your absence.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> LTA, maybe no one here cares about living full time in another country. There would be no reason to be an active participant in a Cdn money forum for any length of time if they were permanently shedding their Cdn ties for years or decades.


Maybe is not a definitive word AltaRed. Maybe some do have plans. Active participation in this forum really has no connection to what someone plans to do down the road, it only indicates what they are interested in at present. Someone could well participate here for 20 years and then retire to Costa Rica could they not?


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

My choice is to retire in Canada, no plans to relocate anywhere else.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> LTA, I did say south of Capetown. There are plenty of wealthy retiree enclaves in the far south. Almost entirely white and European. Dont care though since I have zero interest being a permanent resident anywhere but Canada


'Enclaves' of whatever kind, wherever they are, usually exist for a reason/s AltaRed. What do you suppose the reason for such enclaves are in South Africa?

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...uth-africa-whites-only-town-orania-is-booming

Another 'enclave': https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...975aa0-effd-11e2-8c36-0e868255a989_story.html

Enclaves exist to keep people OUT and only allow those who 'fit' inside. Whether it is for racial reasons or simply protection from crime because of the poverty levels that exist int the country, there are always reasons. Anywhere that has reasons to keep people out is not a place I want to live IN.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

cainvest said:


> My choice is to retire in Canada, no plans to relocate anywhere else.


And my point is that it is in fact a good choice of country to be retired in cainvest. Better than most in fact and probably better than most Canadians realize. The two countries I currently consider best for being retired in are Canada and Switzerland. Canada is my second choice and where I live because I cannot afford to live in Switzerland.

The thing is that we never realize how good we have it until we try living somewhere else. Something most people have never done. For example, it is very hard to beat the Canadian healthcare system. Is it perfect, no of course not, anything can be improved on, but it is far better than most. My wife spent her entire career in healthcare up to a national level in the UK. Even after living here now for over a decade, she is still impressed by the differences here. When she speaks with family members back in the UK, she gets frustrated by how they are treated there in comparison. We talk about if I were to die first and she were to decide she had to move back to the UK to be near some family members as she ages, she would have great difficulty accepting the healthcare system there after having lived here. Most Canadians only know how to complain about our healthcare.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Longtimeago said:


> AltaRed said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe is not a definitive word AltaRed. Maybe some do have plans. Active participation in this forum really has no connection to what someone plans to do down the road, it only indicates what they are interested in at present. Someone could well participate here for 20 years and then retire to Costa Rica could they not?
> ...


----------



## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Because we're not machines, a quantified mathematically calculated index of where is "best" places for retirees doesn't necessarily mean that it's best for everyone. There are so many non-quantifiable, and emotional factors to consider. 

Maybe I would be happiest to spend my last days in a small house outside of Chianti Italy. Every morning I would bicycle to the market to get my bread from the local baker, meat from the local butcher, veggies from the local farmer, and wine from the local vineyard. Bliss!
Oh wait, I'd be miserable b/c Italy is 30th on somebody's list.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

LTA has a point in that one has to consider all factors, and especially health and social supports as one ages, and especially when one starts to need some support physically, or worse mentally. None of that is covered well in any of the biased written exhalations.


----------



## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Perhaps I lack imagination, but I have always known I will retire in Canada, and most likely in the very city I was born. I love travelling and seeing the world. However, I have already known that Canada will always be my home in retirement. My family immigrated to Canada so I was able to have a better opportunity and life. I value the comforts of home, our healthcare system, and the infrastructure around me and most importantly my family, friends, and roots. Though we have worked and lived short term in different place, Canada is home. 

I don't really care of weather as much, and for the cost of living, we have planned to be able afford a comfortable retirement in Canada even if it is more expensive. That being said, our retirement includes being able to visit these other places that people talk about in retirement for months at a time, always returning home. My parents retired comfortably enough, and had kids that would be able to support them. We asked if they would ever want to return to their home country. They thought we were absolutely crazy to even ask. For them the social and family connections are more important than anything else. Makes sense for us.


----------



## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> Longtimeago said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe is not a definitive word AltaRed. Maybe some do have plans. Active participation in this forum really has no connection to what someone plans to do down the road, it only indicates what they are interested in at present. Someone could well participate here for 20 years and then retire to Costa Rica could they not?
> ...


+1 ... Even for simple things that IMO should be important to everyone - there are lots of posts with important questions when it is at best, less optimal or at worst, too late. 

One example is that "moved to another country years ago so I must be a NR - why's CRA thinking I'm still a Canadian tax resident and asking for missing tax returns?" Another is the frequent "Why bother learning about or saving for retirement as I have decades to go?" that I seem to run into. 

I just had a co-worker ask about OAS and CPP as they figure they are two to five years away from retirement.


When I think about those who aren't thinking about financial things, it gets far worse for the planning and getting info in advance aspect. 


Cheers


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

AltaRed said:


> LTA has a point in that one has to consider all factors, and especially health and social supports as one ages, and especially when one starts to need some support physically, or worse mentally. None of that is covered well in any of the biased written exhalations.


Yes that's my point more or less AltaRed. If you go back to my OP, what I am saying is that whenever someone gets to the point of considering where to retire, an internet search brings up dozens of sites, all exhorting the pluses of places primarily based on their cost of living, not the quality of life. They try to suggest that these places are wonderful with things like Costa Rica's 'Pura Vida' (pure life) but do not talk about all the down sides to such places. There is no 'balance' in them.

It's like someone who buys a Ford car that rusts out in 3 years. They never talk about that aspect of their purchase, they just tell you about how great the, 'swing your foot under the rear bumper and the tailgate opens', is.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> Because we're not machines, a quantified mathematically calculated index of where is "best" places for retirees doesn't necessarily mean that it's best for everyone. There are so many non-quantifiable, and emotional factors to consider.
> 
> Maybe I would be happiest to spend my last days in a small house outside of Chianti Italy. Every morning I would bicycle to the market to get my bread from the local baker, meat from the local butcher, veggies from the local farmer, and wine from the local vineyard. Bliss!
> Oh wait, I'd be miserable b/c Italy is 30th on somebody's list.


Yes, maybe you would Userkare. Right up until you were no longer able to ride your bicycle for whatever reason. Then you would want to be in a country where under those circumstances you would still be able to enjoy your life as much as possible. 

There is no point having an automatic tailgate opening on a car when you are no longer able to swing your foot under the bumper in other words. In terms of a country to retire in, what is best for everyone is a country where they have the most bases covered, not just the bases that they would like to have covered at the beginning of their retirement. 

The countries with the most bases covered are the countries which generally speaking have the higher costs of living, not the countries with lower costs of living. So in GENERAL, the best countries to retire in are the countries with a higher cost of living that is still within your means.


----------



## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> Yes, maybe you would Userkare. Right up until you were no longer able to ride your bicycle for whatever reason. Then you would want to be in a country where under those circumstances you would still be able to enjoy your life as much as possible.
> 
> There is no point having an automatic tailgate opening on a car when you are no longer able to swing your foot under the bumper in other words. In terms of a country to retire in, what is best for everyone is a country where they have the most bases covered, not just the bases that they would like to have covered at the beginning of their retirement.
> 
> The countries with the most bases covered are the countries which generally speaking have the higher costs of living, not the countries with lower costs of living. So in GENERAL, the best countries to retire in are the countries with a higher cost of living that is still within your means.


I get what you're saying, and agree for the most part. I don't think the standard of living & cost of living in any EU country would be so terrible; especially if you're in a rural region where there are lots of local food sources and not so much need for personal motorized transport. The European rail system is very good for intercity travel.

If I could no longer ride a bike, then probably wouldn't be able to shovel snow either. Sure, I can hire someone to do the minimum of clearing the driveway, but who will shovel the snow and chip up the ice around the back door and walkways? I would have to move somewhere that it's not a problem... either because it's handled by some maintenance contract... or because it's someplace where that's not even a consideration (like maybe Tuscany?). I think I could happily live the simple peasant life in my old age; I got all the crazy stuff out of my system years ago.

Also, you're using "country" as the selection, but I'm sure that you realize, although basic gov't services may be more or less standardized across a country, cost of living and standard of living may differ from region to region, city to city, even neighbourhood to neighbourhood within a city. Saying that one entire country is "better" than another entire country based on countrywide averages is misleading.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> I get what you're saying, and agree for the most part. I don't think the standard of living & cost of living in any EU country would be so terrible; especially if you're in a rural region where there are lots of local food sources and not so much need for personal motorized transport. The European rail system is very good for intercity travel.
> 
> If I could no longer ride a bike, then probably wouldn't be able to shovel snow either. Sure, I can hire someone to do the minimum of clearing the driveway, but who will shovel the snow and chip up the ice around the back door and walkways? I would have to move somewhere that it's not a problem... either because it's handled by some maintenance contract... or because it's someplace where that's not even a consideration (like maybe Tuscany?). I think I could happily live the simple peasant life in my old age; I got all the crazy stuff out of my system years ago.
> 
> Also, you're using "country" as the selection, but I'm sure that you realize, although basic gov't services may be more or less standardized across a country, cost of living and standard of living may differ from region to region, city to city, even neighbourhood to neighbourhood within a city. Saying that one entire country is "better" than another entire country based on countrywide averages is misleading.


That's all fine Userkare. I agree things vary within a country but I also think it is not unreasonable to say that GENERALLY you can say one country is better than another to BE a retiree in. 

Re the EU countries, some are better than others in one way or another. France for example is much the same as Canada in regards to many factors. But you have to be able to legally live there in retirement and that is not easy to do unless you have dual nationality with an EU country. I had that with British Nationality until Brexit and that allowed me to live in each of the UK, France and Greece for a period of time, before returning to Canada. 

As I wrote earlier, the best is generally the higher cost of living countries in which you can LEGALLY live. It is not so easy to do that though. The better countries do not have simple requirements like say a less desirable country like South Africa which only requires that you be able to prove an income of 37,000 ZAR ($3,228 CAD) per month in order to get a resident visa. 

As for living the simple life, it is only 'simple' until it no longer is. What I mean is that living in a small village somewhere and buying food grown locally can be done in Canada as easily as anywhere else. But once you can't bike or shovel snow, the same priorities arise. How good and how easy to get to is healthcare? People always tend to think of things in terms of their present, not their future needs.

By the way, I have not had to shovel (snowblower actually) snow in my driveway yet this year in Ontario. In the now 10 winters I have lived here, I have never had to do the driveway more than 3-4 times in a year and as often as not, I have started up the snowblower when I didn't really need to use it but just wanted to fire it up and give the engine a run. Point being, there are places in Canada where you don't have to worry much about shovelling snow.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

One thing I would say about retiring to any other country is that you MUST speak the language. While it is quite possible to get by with just English in many countries for day to day life, there are times when language becomes very important. 

I have met a lot of people who said, 'yeah, I intend to learn the language'. I have met few who have actually done so to any great degree. If you think of any kind of detailed, complicated discussion you need to have with someone now in your life, try thinking of trying to have that discussion in pidgin English. What you can communicate and UNDERSTAND in such a way is very limited. Fluency can become very important, very quickly. It's all fine up till that point but once you need it, you probably REALLY need it.


----------



## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> One thing I would say about retiring to any other country is that you MUST speak the language. While it is quite possible to get by with just English in many countries for day to day life, there are times when language becomes very important.


We were watching one of those magazine format shows, I think maybe CBS Sunday Morning. Lots of Americans were applying for Italian citizenship because if you have Italian blood on the paternal side ( father, grandfather ), you qualify. They were moving to Tuscany, and the show was about that community of expats. Since I would qualify, the wife and I considered the possibility. 

Italian was spoken at home when I was growing up, exclusively between my parents, aunt and uncles; it was strictly English with the kids, except maybe to be sworn at. Too bad they didn't think it was important to maintain language, however useless - like the French and Indigenous in Canada. In NYC where I grew up, you were considered an ignorant *** if you spoke Italian. 

On an extended business trip to Ivrea (near Turin & Milan), I was doing O.K. getting directions and ordering food within a few weeks; so I probably wouldn't get lost or starve. I imagine in a a few months I would be fluent enough for day to day conversations. 

But, much like your "codger motel" plans, sometimes the dream gets lost when the details come to light. I don't think I'll ever find myself "Under the Tuscan Sun". Che peccato!


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Italy seems an odd choice to me. Basket case economy, inept revolving door governments and crippling debt. An implosion waiting to happen.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The thing is if you've got your lifetime "nut" in investment accounts and cash why would governments, debt etc come into play when choosing a country to retire in. I most likely will retire in my last years to Mexico, but any downside of the country doesn't really affect me. I think Tuscany would be hard to beat as well.


----------



## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Health care for one. While us wealthy ex-pats obviously would go to private facilities, there will still be obstacles to overcome. And what about when you become mentally incompetent? Who will be your advocate and what kind of regulatory oversight would there be? Who is your POA? Money does not prevent elder abuse, etc.


----------



## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

The thing about Canadian health care is that just because I've lived in Mexico for 9 years, should I develop a disability or Alzheimer's etc. I can at any time move back to Alberta and be fully covered in 3 months or in most cases immediately... From our website

"Moving from outside Canada *If you are moving, immigrating, or returning to Alberta from outside Canada, you might be eligible for coverage from the date establish residency in Alberta."*



Of course in case of a heart attack or stroke well its Mexican facilities. I know the one in Nuevo is world class,

No body gets out alive...I'm a big advocate of euthanasia and hope that it becomes easier to get so my wife & I don't need to suffer like my parents.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The point is that there is much more to the decision than most realize and there are usually as many 'cons' as 'pros' involved. But as the saying goes, 'you can't see there, from here.' It is only after you have been living somewhere for a period of time that you really get to know what the real pros and cons are to living in a place.

I lived for some years on a Greek island and there were many pros to doing so, AT the time. And few actual cons that affected me AT the time. But if I were to say end up with Alzheimer's I would not want to be living there NOW and any assumption that I would return to Canada is just that, an assumption. It might creep up on me at a rate that precluded me realizing it was time to leave and return to OHIP in Ontario, regardless of how quickly it would cover me.

Or can you imagine if I did return and my son who has POA over my affairs, was trying to get any money I had in Greece out and back to Canada. I know just how likely it would NOT be that he could do so. When I left Greece totally 'compos mentis', I had to get a Greek friend with some real 'clout' to get a bank to release a five figure sum I had in Greek government bonds to me. 

The only time you will KNOW if it was a good idea or not is when you are living it and something happens. It's like euthanasia, the only people who I believe KNOW if they believe in it or not are those asking for it NOW or not, not those saying, 'I'm a believer and I will want it LATER.'

On the other hand I think most people here have a pretty good idea of what would be likely to happen if they are retired here and something happens regarding their health or finances etc.

The real point is that while everyone is free to choose, I am saying do not let cost of living sway you too much. It comes at a different COST.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> We were watching one of those magazine format shows, I think maybe CBS Sunday Morning. Lots of Americans were applying for Italian citizenship because if you have Italian blood on the paternal side ( father, grandfather ), you qualify. They were moving to Tuscany, and the show was about that community of expats. Since I would qualify, the wife and I considered the possibility.
> 
> Italian was spoken at home when I was growing up, exclusively between my parents, aunt and uncles; it was strictly English with the kids, except maybe to be sworn at. Too bad they didn't think it was important to maintain language, however useless - like the French and Indigenous in Canada. In NYC where I grew up, you were considered an ignorant *** if you spoke Italian.
> 
> ...


La Dolce Vita can be a very tempting thing for many people Userkare. I watched a program last week where a couple from London, England were looking at moving to France. They lived in an average semi-detached house on an average street in London and in France were being shown chateaus that were cheaper! It isn't hard to imagine the same kind of scenario blinding the eyes of a couple from Toronto or Vancouver who live in an average house worth $1 million plus.

It really is a question of not being able to see the forest for the trees. I have seen a lot of people in different countries who seemed to leave their common sense at home when it came to looking at living in another country. The huge difference in property prices as well as lower costs of living blind them to everything else.

If you watch those property shows like, House Hunters International, one clue you can see if you pay attention is how often the houses the potential buyers are being shown is currently owned by a foreigner. For example, on the one I watched last week, they walked in to one potential house and on a chair there was a cushion which was covered in the Union Jack which indicated to me along with other clues that the house was currently owned by Brits. 

It is often not hard to figure out foreigners, not locals own the houses being shown and this happens OFTEN on those shows. The question I think people should then be asking themselves is if La Dolce Vita is indeed to be found in these places, why are those who presumably moved there to enjoy that life are now selling? What went wrong? The answer is of course that they discovered reality vs. fantasy.

When I lived in Greece, I never once say anyone who came with their 'rose coloured glasses' on, leave with with more money than they arrived with. Most left with significantly less money than they arrived with. I don't have any empirical evidence I can point to but from my own observations I would say 50% of those who arrived intending to stay, 50% left within 2 years and only around 10% were still there after 5 years. That is a very high rate of attrition.

The problem is there is no way to KNOW before you try if you will 'stick' or not. It isn't a question of 'failure' as such, it is just a question of not being able to or wiling to accept what is 'different' in another country. That is why for those who do want to try, I always suggest first renting for at least 1 and preferably 2 years to see how it goes. 

When someone decides they want to leave, they are usually at the 'end of their tether' so to speak. They've tried to make it work but they just can't keep trying any longer. That makes them more or less desperate to leave at that point. The locals are not stupid, they know this is what happens with most foreigners. As a result, when a house is put up for sale, the locals will only make lowball offers. The only hope the seller has of getting anywhere near their money back out of the house is if they can find another foreigner who has just arrived and still has those 'rose coloured glasses' on. I believe that is why so many of the houses you see on those House Hunters International etc. type tv shows are so obviously owned by foreigners already.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Ditto for from what we have seen and who we have spoken to in Costa Rica, Spain, and Cyprus. Plus you need to be aware of the trend in some EU countries to require a statement of your resources over a fairly low threshold amount. I assume for some future tax scheme.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> Ditto for from what we have seen and who we have spoken to in Costa Rica, Spain, and Cyprus. Plus you need to be aware of the trend in some EU countries to require a statement of your resources over a fairly low threshold amount. I assume for some future tax scheme.


Cyprus is particularly fraught with potential problems for those who buy in the Turkish occupied area ian. There are a lot of Brits who have bought there quite simple because they can buy at a very low price, lower than they could in the Greek Cypriot part of the island. But they do not legally own the land!

When Turkey invaded and then occupied northern Cyprus, all the Greek Cypriots living there had to flee or were forced to leave their homes and their land that their families had lived on for generations. They never gave up TITLE to their land, it was just taken.

In recent years, there have been attempts at talks to re-unite Cyprus. IF that happens, those Greeks who were forced off their land will want it back. This is actually one of the major sticking points in the talks. 

Most people do not understand the ties to the land that are part of Greek culture. If you say to one of these land owners, 'your land has been sold to a Brit who has built a house on it, so we will give you X amount of money in compensation', they will say, 'NO, I want my land back, let the Brit be given compensation and removed from MY land.' They don't want MONEY they want their family's land back.

The Brits meanwhile who have become aware of this possibility expect the UK government to step in and help them keep their houses. Of course the UK government has no power to do so but Brits who have lived all their lives in their 'nanny state' where they are protected by law against their own stupidity, don't understand that either. When they in fact 'squatted' on land they do not legally own, they made a big mistake.

I expect that one day, Cyprus will be re-united and when that day comes, there are going to be a lot of retired Brits who will receive a big shock when they are told to pack up and leave.
http://www.inrealtycy.com/Articles/MEMO MINISTRY OF FOREIGHN AFFAIRS.pdf


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Check this advice by the UK government re buying in northern Cyprus. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-property-in-cyprus

About a third of the way down the page you will find this:

_"On 20 October 2006, an amendment to the Republic of Cyprus criminal code relating to property came into effect. Under the amendment, buying, selling, renting, promoting or mortgaging a property without the permission of the owner (the person whose ownership is registered with the Republic of Cyprus Land Registry, including Greek Cypriots displaced from northern Cyprus in 1974) is a criminal offence. The maximum prison sentence is 7 years.

The amendment to the law also states that any attempt to undertake such a transaction is a criminal offence and could result in a prison sentence of up to 5 years. This law is not retrospective, so will not criminalise transactions that took place before 20 October 2006."_

Imagine finding yourself in a similar situation anywhere in the world. All it takes is one individual with the will and the money to start legal proceedings and the nightmare begins. This has already in fact happened in regard to Cyprus. 
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...elizabeth-orams-january-19-2010-82802657.html

Latest news on this case here: https://www.pressreader.com/cyprus/cyprus-today/20191026/281522227876209
Even after all that, they are still being told they owe some money.


----------



## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

We're retired and are in Mexico for a month. We found a good rental and will be back for 2 months next winter but that's all we care to do...we just want to get away from the cold for a while. We both love Canada but we both have aging parents and she has a 19-year old daughter in university.

Family ties and long term friends are also important to us. 40 year friendships don't come along that often (I have a few) and can't be replaced. Sure you can make new friends but it's not the same as hanging out with people you partied with at 20, went to their weddings at 25, watched their kids be raised for 20 years, went to their parent's funeral and their kid's weddings.

We're happily retired in Canada and have no plans to leave other than for a couple months away in winter.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Same here. We looked at many options, including exiting the country For 2-3 years immediately after retirement.

Now we do two months in the winter and two months in the Sept-Oct. timeframe. Plus some in between. It would be different if we had strong family ties or roots in other countries however we do not. We would consider a six month rental out of the country but that is the extent of it for us at the moment. 

When we were in Costa Rica a few years ago the real estate agent who was managing our rental pointed to an unfinished mountainside development that was marketed to expats. It was never completed....everyone got ripped off. Slight problem, besides the legal, title etc. There was no water, sewer, or utility hookups planned. W


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I do not think that there is a one best place. So much depends on one’s personal, financial, and health considerations. Because of immigration more and more people have dual citizenships which make it much easier from a legal, and sometimes, a health insurance perspective. 

I think it is a moving target with most people having a somewhat unique decision matrix.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I do not think that there is a one best place. So much depends on one’s personal, financial, and health considerations. Because of immigration more and more people have dual citizenships which make it much easier from a legal, and sometimes, a health insurance perspective.
> 
> I think it is a moving target with most people having a somewhat unique decision matrix.


That's why I really like the saying, 'you can't see there from here'. What seems right today may no longer be right tomorrow. Going back to UserKare's example of a potential move to Tuscany, it can all look good in the present and in fact I see nothing wrong with doing it in the present necessarily but do not put all your eggs in one basket. I have seen people who made a move and then when the situation was no longer what they wanted, had great difficulty and suffered financially etc. in trying to 'undo' their move.

For example, Brits who moved to Spain and then were forced to return to the UK for various reasons, only to find they were now priced out of the property market, lost money selling their property in Spain and after returning home were reduced to a lower standard of living than they had when they left to begin with. They 'burned their bridges' and suffered for it. Brexit has forced this on many Brits along with the fall in the GBP exchange rate with the Euro.

Exchange rates are often the cause of retirees living abroad running into trouble. Imagine you move to your ideal paradise and are living La Dolce Vita in Tuscany. Your income is derived in CAD and the exchange rate with the Euro results in a 25% DECREASE in the Euros in your pocket. If you think that is unlikely, do some checking on historical exchange rates between any two currencies you wish to. I can tell you for example that the exchange rate between the CAD and the GBP has fluctuated by that much in periods of less than 10 years. You can see it between 2006 and 2016. 

So you are living in Tuscany, your income drops in real buying power by 25%. Did you have a 25% cushion planned that would allow you to take that hit? A lot of people who move abroad in retirement do so because of a lower cost of living and they tend to live to the limit of their retirement income. So they buy a nice villa with a pool, sit back and relax. All is fine until the exchange rate starts going against them and they see their monthly income decreasing every month.

If someone is going to consider retiring abroad, they need to plan for a cushion of at least 25% in my opinion, in their income vs. their cost of living in their new country. If someone goes south for a couple of months each year and rents, it's easy to just not do so if the CAD falls and it makes going too expensive. It's a whole other story if you are living somewhere and the exchange rate tanks on you.


----------



## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> So you are living in Tuscany, your income drops in real buying power by 25%. Did you have a 25% cushion planned that would allow you to take that hit? A lot of people who move abroad in retirement do so because of a lower cost of living and they tend to live to the limit of their retirement income. So they buy a nice villa with a pool, sit back and relax. All is fine until the exchange rate starts going against them and they see their monthly income decreasing every month.


So, you're living in Tuscany; not in a luxurious villa on the side of the hill, but a modest farm house that you paid for entirely with the proceeds of selling your house in Canada with even some left over. You grow your own vegetables year-round; maybe have some chickens, and a goat. You buy what else you need from the other local farmers, the butcher, and the baker. Barter a dozen eggs for a loaf of focaccia, 5L of goat milk for a chunk of parmesan, etc. You don't give a flying fig about ordering **** from Amazon, or lining up in Costco. Most of the other savings you have stays in Canadian banks; the interest, plus CPP and OAS you receive should be more than enough for anything you'd need to buy. Italy has a reciprocal tax agreement with Canada, so no double tax.

Every few weeks you take the train to Florence to take in some culture. "La Dolce Vita" doesn't have to be driving your Maserati at +200km on your private estate roads, with hollywood celebrities visiting your 50 room villa; maybe it's just relaxing, away from the rat race, and spend your days trying to keep the squirrels out of the chicken feed.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Userkare said:


> So, you're living in Tuscany; not in a luxurious villa on the side of the hill, but a modest farm house that you paid for entirely with the proceeds of selling your house in Canada with even some left over. You grow your own vegetables year-round; maybe have some chickens, and a goat. You buy what else you need from the other local farmers, the butcher, and the baker. Barter a dozen eggs for a loaf of focaccia, 5L of goat milk for a chunk of parmesan, etc. You don't give a flying fig about ordering **** from Amazon, or lining up in Costco. Most of the other savings you have stays in Canadian banks; the interest, plus CPP and OAS you receive should be more than enough for anything you'd need to buy. Italy has a reciprocal tax agreement with Canada, so no double tax.
> 
> Every few weeks you take the train to Florence to take in some culture. "La Dolce Vita" doesn't have to be driving your Maserati at +200km on your private estate roads, with hollywood celebrities visiting your 50 room villa; maybe it's just relaxing, away from the rat race, and spend your days trying to keep the squirrels out of the chicken feed.


Yes Userkare you could do that and it could be you are doing so without using all your income. But I am speaking based on experience and what I have GENERALLY seen to be the case. More are living in a way that sees them spending to the full extent of their income rather than living on half their income. As I wrote, if someone PLANS for a decent cushion, they can handle currency fluctuations but if they aren't..........

My point was most people do not plan for large currency fluctuations and in fact the reason for many of them moving to lower cost of living countries is because they have a pretty low income after retiring. They are not living the 'high life' in Costa Rica and driving a Maserati etc. They are moving to a place where they are not far from just 'making ends meet' in terms of income vs. cost of living. 

By the way, have you ever farmed full time because that is in fact what you are talking about with the vegetable garden and the chickens, etc. Retiring to what is in effect a full time job is not my idea of fun at age 74. See that's part of the 'you can't see there from here' I am talking about. What sounds appealing to you now at your CURRENT age Userkare may be vastly different when you get to my age. So if you have to spend money on all the things you are suggesting can avoid you spending money, you better have the money ready to spend when you get to the age where you will need to spend it. Otherwise, La Dolce Vita will be over with.


----------



## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

I wouldn't even consider moving to a 3rd world shithole just because it's cheap. The locals would probably hate you, and in the best case maybe just spit in your food; worst case, your body would never be found.

As for income, yes it's usually reduced post retirement, but consider wealth instead. You can have a low income, but still have lots of money. I have no principles against spending principal; what do I gain by leaving piles of unspent money when I croak? I think I would be OK living within the means of the mandatory RRIF withdrawals plus CPP/OAS knowing there's a shitton of money somewhere that I can draw down if needed. I would see a danger of moving to another country that later implements a wealth tax; I'd be screwed. OTOH who's to say that couldn't happen in Canada?

As for farming... I've had a vegetable garden before; that's all I'm talking about. Having a small garden that provides for personal consumption year-round would be great. Being outside, getting exercise, and then enjoying the fruits ( or vegetables ) of my labour appeals to me more than sitting all day on my ***, looking at the clock, and waiting for the dinner bell.

La dolce vita, I think describes a more opulent life style. Maybe I'm looking more for La tranquilla vita.


----------



## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

I was thinking about Barbados or maybe Granada. I don't think I would buy but rent. But I would want to be able to run some hobby business -- dunno what exactly.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our 30 year expat friends in Boquette, Panama claim that their real estate business friends say that on average 50 percent of the people who buy and retire to the area sell up and leave within three years. The return home. Various reasons of course.


----------



## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Some of our American expat friends are moving back to the US once they qualify for Medicare. It seems that Mexico,enabled them to retire early but then health issues caused them to return.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We heard exactly the same sentiments from several Americans who were staying in the same condo development in Costa Rica as we were a few years ago. Retired early, no strings so their plan was to get out of Dodge until Medicare kicked in. Then, while staying in a B&B in SAN Jose, we were surprised to learn that it primarily catered to Americans coming to Costa Rica for medical procedures.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

The stories are all the same wherever you see large numbers of retirees living in a lower cost of living country. They discover life is not as they expected and they return home for various reasons as ian notes. Or they retire early and then return for medical coverage or pension reasons etc. 

What used to amuse me a bit was that each individual who told me his or her story as if it were unique, didn't realize they were telling the same story as a dozen others had told already.

Gardner, If I had a dime (as the saying goes) for everyone I met in such a situation as you describe and lost their shirt (as the other saying goes), I would be richer than I am. Moving to another country where you do not have the 'street smarts' that you have accumulated over a lifetime of living where you do, is a good way to start a failing business. Believe me, I have seen many of them.

Here's a simple example. I opened a bar on a Greek island with a Greek partner. It took us 3 months from decision to do so, to opening night. During those 3 months I learned a great deal about Greek business culture. At the same time as we were deciding to open a bar, an Englishman also decided to open a bar a block away, but on his own. It took him 2 YEARS before he could open. Every obstacle possible was put in his way by locals. When he finally opened, the Police closed him down on his first night for playing music after Midnight which was contrary to a local bylaw and which every other bar on the island ignored without difficulty.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I think that this is also dependent on your career and where you have lived.

My SIL grew up in Ontario. She has lived, and worked in cities around the world. Hong Kong, Geneva, London, Dubai, and now Moscow. In between she became a dual citizen in the UK. Her and her husband chose Valencia, Spain for their retirement. She speaks Spanish. They have lived in enough foreign cities to know exactly what they want and they have the resources to support make their choice a reality. In their case Ontario and Canada was not in the cards. I can’t say that I blame them.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I think that this is also dependent on your career and where you have lived.
> 
> My SIL grew up in Ontario. She has lived, and worked in cities around the world. Hong Kong, Geneva, London, Dubai, and now Moscow. In between she became a dual citizen in the UK. Her and her husband chose Valencia, Spain for their retirement. She speaks Spanish. They have lived in enough foreign cities to know exactly what they want and they have the resources to support make their choice a reality. In their case Ontario and Canada was not in the cards. I can’t say that I blame them.


There are always exceptions to any 'general rule' ian, which is why we have 'general rules' not 'absolute rules'. It sounds like your SIL is indeed in a position to know what they are doing. My experience with the 'typical' person moving to another country to live and/or start a business however, supports the 'general rule' that the vast majority fit the profile.

How are your SIL and her husband dealing with the Brexit fiasco? I presume they are getting (or have) Spanish Residency and then may or may not move from that to Citizenship. There are a whole lot of Brits in trouble right now because what applied while the UK was in the EU no longer applies re healthcare, pensions, legal residency requirements.


----------



## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I do not know. They were certainly aware of the Brexit .
issue. Hubby is British. They did not buy into an expat area. Right in the heart of the city.

My point was that there are people who know what they are doing. They plan for it and make the appropriate arrangements. The understand, for instance, that the Caribbean may be wonderful but don’t come down with an emergency health situation that requires immediate and highly skilled treatment and facilities. Same with many other countries. We may complain a great deal but Canada has much to offer. Especially if you can exit for a few months in winter.

If you do not carefully plan something like this chances are you are letting yourself in for a lot of bother and some financial pain. My sisters in laws were fortunate enough to move back to Scotland and then return to Canada when the currencies, both times were very much in their favour. This, I suspect, is the exception.

There can be huge differences with countries. Move to Bangkok and you will have access to top flyte medical. Move to Ko Lanta, in the south, and access will be very different particularly if it heart or stroke.


----------



## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> I do not know. They were certainly aware of the Brexit .
> issue. Hubby is British. They did not buy into an expat area. Right in the heart of the city.
> 
> My point was that there are people who know what they are doing. They plan for it and make the appropriate arrangements. The understand, for instance, that the Caribbean may be wonderful but don’t come down with an emergency health situation that requires immediate and highly skilled treatment and facilities. Same with many other countries. We may complain a great deal but Canada has much to offer. Especially if you can exit for a few months in winter.
> ...


Yes, I agree with all of that ian.

If they are still in Valencia then I guess we can presume they have made the necessary arrangements to stay their legally.


----------

