# How do I move Canadian Money to an American Bank account, without high fees?



## Freedom25 (Dec 3, 2011)

I couldn't find any existing threads on this topic with the search feature. I'm buying a house in California with my American husband. I have a substantial downpayment in Canadian banks. How do I move the money to our joint bank account in California, without incurring high fees?

I have an American funds bank account at one of my Canadian banks, but have never transferred anything into it as getting the money across the border seems to be the problem, from what I can tell.

My banks are RBC, CIBC, Tangerine, and Canadian Tire, if that helps.

Thanks for any advice anyone can offer...


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

You have your Canadian bank do a wire transfer from your Canadian USD account to your American bank account in California. It might cost in the order of $25-50. A mere pittance. Ask your Canadian bank what information they need with regard to routing numbers, etc. and voila.... it can be transferred in a matter of a few days. 

I have done the reverse in the past a few times. Moved upwards of 6 figures in USD from an American brokerage to a Canadian bank via a wire transfer.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

My understanding is that OP have Canadian funds in Canadian bank account.

She wants to get that money into American funds in American bank account.

Would the $25-50 wire transfer fee include currency conversion fee as well? Or would it silently charge an extra 1.5% to 2% ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

There are some 3rd party websites that can do this at a much lower cost, and the more $$ the lower their fee % will be. I've used XE but there is also KnightsbridgeFX etc. Whether you can ETF or wire depends on the bank, and Canadian banks seem to be far behind (wires are slow and archaic, but highly profitable!!) Moving over $10k should trigger a red flag but you will just have to declare what the $$ is for.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I moved 400k into my Wells Fargo account using Canadian Forex. No transfer fees and the best exchange rate I could find. No flags are raised transferring money across the border, thousands of Canadians are doing it every day snapping up homes down here.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

So you moved $400k outside of Canada and nobody asked you what it was for? Likely Canadian Forex asked in passing and reported the large transaction to FINTRAC for you (and starting in 2015 to the CRA as well)


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I have moved over 10k from Royal Bank to Wells Fargo numerous times, never a question or problem. It is much different than carrying over 10k cash across the border.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Eder said:


> I have moved over 10k from Royal Bank to Wells Fargo numerous times, never a question or problem. It is much different than carrying over 10k cash across the border.


That is the difference. A wire transfer is transparent from one financial institution to the other. No need for questions to be asked.

Regarding the OP's post, I assumed the OP already had the funds in USD in her USD account in Canada. If not, then yes, it is likely best to using one of the third party Forex sites as already suggested.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

if the OP's house funds are in canadian dollar at the start point, why are we not encouraging her to gambit/arbitrage her currency into USD, right here in canada, with zero FX fee, as step numero uno?

after that, she can wire USD to a cali bank. It's my understanding the max charge for a bank wire north of 50k is roughly $100, but considerably less at currency wire services.

the OP has mentioned that her dollar resource earmarked for the house purchase is "substantial." The killer fee on a "substantial" amount is going to be the FX fee, even those charged at less expensive than bank rates by agencies such as XE or knightsbridge.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> if the OP's house funds are in canadian dollar at the start point, why are we not encouraging her to gambit/arbitrage her currency into USD, right here in canada, with zero FX fee, as step numero uno?


How do we know she has a CAD/USD discount brokerage account?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^

we don't each:

but for $1000 or more in FX fees, it's worth asking the question, à mon avis


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## Freedom25 (Dec 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> if the OP's house funds are in canadian dollar at the start point, why are we not encouraging her to gambit/arbitrage her currency into USD, right here in canada, with zero FX fee, as step numero uno?
> 
> after that, she can wire USD to a cali bank. It's my understanding the max charge for a bank wire north of 50k is roughly $100, but considerably less at currency wire services.
> 
> the OP has mentioned that her dollar resource earmarked for the house purchase is "substantial." The killer fee on a "substantial" amount is going to be the FX fee, even those charged at less expensive than bank rates by agencies such as XE or knightsbridge.


I have a discount brokerage account, but I don't know how to do the gambit, and my money is in several banks that it's hard to transfer into the brokerage (I use RBC, and they don't play nicely with other banks when it comes to electronic transfers, or at least they didn't when I set up the account. I'd need to deposit it there by cheque and I am out of the country right now). If anyone wants to explain the gambit to me I'd be interested to hear more, I have around half the money at RBC so could move it through there.

I set up accounts at both Canadian Forex and XE today. Is XE a lot cheaper to use? The Forex looks the easiest, but if I can save thousands of dollars I am open to complicated!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes I agree with humble that FX fee is really going to get you. Focus on minimizing this fee; the wire fee is insignificant. I don't know anything about XE -- does anyone here use it? I have no idea what their fee structure is. Comparison of fees.

FX as part of wire (send CAD, receive USD) : 2.5% to 3.0%
Brokerage preferred rates (e.g. TDDI) : 1.6% to 2.0%
Gambit net FX fee : 0.1% to 0.3%


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't know about XE but Canadian Forex has no other cost than the forex fee and will wire your money to any beneficiary, so you could just keep the CAD in your RY account and then forward the money for the home directly to the lawyers escrow account with out using your US bank.(Since our CAD is rising a bit it might save you a few points)
RY will set up Canadian Forex as a bill payee so you don't need to go to a branch etc.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> ... Canadian Forex has no other cost than the forex fee



this the point, exactly. The Canadian Forex FX fee is significantly higher than the spot rates obtainable via gambit trading (see below.) Canadian Forex makes enough $$ on their FX fees that, for most forex transactions, they throw in the wire transfer cost for free.

at the moment, CF is quoting a forex fee of $760 on a $100,000 CAD exchange/wire transfer deal (rate is .8827.)
(ie for CAD 100,000, CF is quoting to deliver 88,270 USD)

for a $50,000 CAD exchange/wire transfer deal, CF is quoting a forex fee of $455 (rate is .8812)

meanwhile, gambit trades would deliver US dollars currently at the spot rate of .8903 plus a pair of $9.95 broker commissions plus a wire service fee that would most likely be less than $100. Savings of something like $640 on a 100k wire transfer, something like $335 on a 50k transfer.

if it were myself, the deciding factor would be whether this would be a final CAD/USD exchange, following which i would be closing the roybank broker account plus all other canadian accounts & totally severing my financial ties with canada, for tax purposes. If Final Exit would describe my case, then i'd consider the Canadian Forex route because it would be more convenient. Note that the banks' transfer codes will have to be obtained & used in both cases.

on the other hand, if i were planning to keep my canadian financial connection live & if i were expecting to have other CAD/USD transactions in the future, i'd probably want to consider learning how to gambit.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Freedom25 said:


> I have a discount brokerage account, but I don't know how to do the gambit, and my money is in several banks that it's hard to transfer into the brokerage (I use RBC, and they don't play nicely with other banks when it comes to electronic transfers, or at least they didn't when I set up the account. I'd need to deposit it there by cheque and I am out of the country right now). If anyone wants to explain the gambit to me I'd be interested to hear more, I have around half the money at RBC so could move it through there.


I've lived out of the country and ALL of the Canadian B&M banks will be a hassle at some point ("Just stop in to our branch! Noo.. I'm nowhere near your damn branch!) If you want to go with a discount brokerage, Interactive Brokers is the undisputed leader in forex. The cost is $2.5 USD (no spread, no wire fees, no gambits!) and $10USD/month if you keep it activated. Of course it would be the most hassle and slower to setup an Interactive Broker account, and link all bank accounts etc. The cost savings really depends on the amount.. XE, Knightsbridge, MTFX spread is based on the $$$.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

i get the feeling that the op asked how to change a tire and we are telling him/her how to build a car
so why not add my 2-cents ?
heres how to rebuild the transmission

rbc bank is an american bank wholly owned by royal bank
it is easy to open an account in rbc bank though royal

then you fund your royal american dollar account and you can do the transfer from royal to rbc on-line yourself
very easy

http://www.rbcbank.com/help-and-faqs/about-transferring-money/transferring-money/index.html

you do pay the fx fee but that is mostly unavoidable unless you want to start gambitting which may be beyond your interest and/or skill


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I think the first time I did a gambit it took me about 30 mins tops, following the great instructions written here on CMF many times already. It's not very difficult to learn and the incentive is thousands of dollars for a few mins of online "work". That's a pretty good rate of return imo unless you're a lawyer or a Canadian bank/telco. After the first try, I can now do a gambit from my iPhone on the beach. I do lots of work on my cars, but I certainly won't rebuild a transmission in my garage.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

(m3 u are the transmission king of bosnia herzegovina for sure, but why are u gambitting on the beach when u can just forex your currencies at IB??)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

fatcat she asked in the very first post - specifically & several times - how to avoid high fees.

so we are mentioning. As you know there are countless lurkers to every thread, so other people might be benefiting from the range of suggestions on here.

there are many ways to skin a cat. This situation is a spectrum of gray, nothing is black or white.

someone in the OP's position might very well say to herself i-am-super-busy-right-now-so-i'll-pay-the-forex-fee-this-time-because-it's-convenient-&-maybe-come-back-later-when-i-have-more-time-to-study-up-on-gambitting.

in addition, RBC bank seems to be located in the state of georgia so it looks like she'd have to get the US dollars wired from georgia to her bank in california anyhow ... probably easier to assemble the US dollars here at RBC canada, then wire directly to cali bank ...


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

Freedom25 said:


> I have a discount brokerage account, but I don't know how to do the gambit, and my money is in several banks that it's hard to transfer into the brokerage (I use RBC, and they don't play nicely with other banks when it comes to electronic transfers, or at least they didn't when I set up the account. I'd need to deposit it there by cheque and I am out of the country right now). * If anyone wants to explain the gambit to me I'd be interested to hear more, I have around half the money at RBC so could move it through there.
> *
> I set up accounts at both Canadian Forex and XE today. Is XE a lot cheaper to use? The Forex looks the easiest, but if I can save thousands of dollars I am open to complicated!


https://www.pwlcapital.com/en/Advisor/Toronto/Toronto-Team/White-Papers
scroll to RBC Norberts Gambit. Easy peasey if you carefully follow the steps.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

RBull said:


> https://www.pwlcapital.com/en/Advisor/Toronto/Toronto-Team/White-Papers
> scroll to RBC Norberts Gambit. Easy peasey if you carefully follow the steps.


That's awesome!.. Professional financial planning consultants now rewriting what originally came from an online DIY financial forum!! (Norbert Schlenker on FWF)



humble_pie said:


> (m3 u are the transmission king of bosnia herzegovina for sure, but why are u gambitting on the beach when u can just forex your currencies at IB??)


I gambit in Questrade registered accounts, but IB is cheaper and they will even do international wires or EFT for free. Questrade app works much better on the beach though.


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

m3s said:


> So you moved $400k outside of Canada and nobody asked you what it was for? Likely Canadian Forex asked in passing and reported the large transaction to FINTRAC for you (and starting in 2015 to the CRA as well)


We use Canadian Forex regularly and they ask "reason for transfer" every time even for amount under 10k. it also shows up on the confirmation form they send.


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## PuckiTwo (Oct 26, 2011)

m3s said:


> .......but IB is cheaper and they will even do international wires or EFT for free.


M3, rather than using Canadian Forex I would like to use IB for transferring currency (CAD$-EUR) because they are so much cheaper. But if you open an IB account don't you have to trade regularly, otherwise they charge you a monthly fee of $16...something? We do not trade much, at least not as much as IB's minimum and we wonder if it is worthwhile to keep an account there simply for currency moves?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The monthly fee at IB is max $10USD (if you spend $10USD on transactions it's free) I read some people freeze the account at $0 balance to avoid the $10USD/month

Although I can exchange and hold EUR with IB, I was unable to link my EUR chequing account to make EFTs. I didn't try very hard because I can transfer funds via cashier at work


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> That's awesome!.. Professional financial planning consultants now rewriting what originally came from an online DIY financial forum!!



PWL stole the idea from on here. They didn't write about it as well as we do, though.

as a matter of fact, it was never mister norbert schlenker's invention a decade ago. It's always been nothing more than pure, effortless, centuries-old arbitrage. It's been going on since the late Middle Ages, since the first stirrings of the Renaissance explorers sent out by the grand dukes & kings of europe.

it wouldn't surprise me if a study of ancient chinese or african history didn't show that merchants were arbing their inventories by bush telegraph.

my entire life, there've always been a bunch of us doing arbs at the big green. We were considered the "sophisticated" traders lol. I remember discussing different kinds of currency arbitrage with one of the TD's star senior traders many years ago, long before mister schlenker ever said boo. 

it's beyond ludicrous of schlenker to have hired a PR writer recently to plant a self-promotional story about himself in the globe & mail, claiming that he had "invented" gambit trading [sic.] This is true PR spin. He happened to stumble upon arbitrage, is all. Millions were practicing it.

when i came to this forum in 2009, i immediately noticed that scomac was already doing perfect half-gambits. Folks weren't catching on yet, but he was doing them.

the story about how Canadian Capitalist published the article in 2010 that launched the present tsunami of gambit traders - in which article he said he'd got the idea from a CMF forum member - is highly entertaining. Maybe someday i'll post the story. It was CC's article - plus the many focus posts that followed in cmf forum & in CC blogspot - that established this forum as the premier motherlode of gambit trades in canada.

let's give credit where credit is due. To the bush telegraphs of the 16th century!


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> I gambit in Questrade registered accounts, but IB is cheaper and they will even do international wires or EFT for free. Questrade app works much better on the beach though.



please forgive this nicketty detail question, but i'm wondering how questrade can instantly journal the shares in a gambit trade, app or not, beach setting or not?

to the best of my knowledge the questrade mainframe requires a manual journal (as does TD's & many other brokers.) As the tsunami of canadians seeking to arbitrage/gambit currencies grew ever bigger, questrade became overwhelmed a few short years ago. Too many clients were phoning live to request instant gambit journals, they said.

although questrade had been able to service these requests when gambit trades were relatively few & far between, when the volume of phone calls soared, this broker regretfully had to declare a long "journalling" period of maximum five days. Is what they told me, was confirmed by many posters here in cmf forum.

recently a knowledgeable & reliable friend with a questrade account told me that questrade has been gradually improving their speed although, he said, they are still manually batching gambit journal requests overnight, when systems are less busy. A couple months ago, he said he was still seeing delays of 24 hours for questrade gambit journals.

so i find myself wondering how a closed-loop gambit trade - from CAD instantly to USD, or vice versa - can be accomplished chez questrade within 30 minutes?

mind you, it could be done instantly by questrade clients willing to pay the agent's full phone commission for the sell side. Legally speaking, a broker cannot refuse to carry out an arbitrage trade.

but you, m3, on your farflung beach halfway around the world, how would you be able to just casually phone up questrade's trading desk, live, on your app?


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

humble_pie said:


> fatcat she asked in the very first post - specifically & several times - how to avoid high fees.
> 
> so we are mentioning. As you know there are countless lurkers to every thread, so other people might be benefiting from the range of suggestions on here.
> 
> ...


oh for the love of god pie, you aren't now requiring me to read the posts in a thread before i reply are you ? each: ... i see she has a us bank already

yes, assemble the funds in royal and wire them down

perhaps she should wait until the down payment is due and she can wire directly from royal to the account of the escrow office and bypass her california bank altogether ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> but you, m3, on your farflung beach halfway around the world, how would you be able to just casually phone up questrade's trading desk, live, on your app?


Within the Questrade App - Menu Bar - Contacts - Live Help (live chat available 8-8 ET) They have email but you should never send trading instructions that way. In my experience it can be done within hours or overnight as a "service gesture".

I hate calling any company to wait on hold, but for those I do have a VoIP app on my iPhone that works on any beach worldwide with 3G, or even better LTE connection. I was able to find 3G in the Sahara, trading on the beach is more of a dream.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> Within the Questrade App - Menu Bar - Contacts - Live Help (live chat available 8-8 ET) They have email but you should never send trading instructions that way. In my experience it can be done within hours or overnight as a "service gesture".



yes, this is what i'd expect. Save & except for bmo & roybank - whose platforms do permit true instant gambits - this is about as good as it gets at any canadian broker.

it's nice to see how so many brokers - here's your questrade & i know that TD has done the same - have worked so hard over the last few years to speed up the gambit procedure.

the web systems themselves haven't changed, but the brokers' manual handling of gambit procedures has morphed 180 degrees, from night into day. 

where once, only a few years ago, brokers were reluctant, uncooperative, even angry at what they saw as an attempt to deprive them of FX fees (it is that, indeed), brokers now seem to have accepted currency arbitrage with considerable goodwill.

amazing! it's become a happy story where brokers are doing their utmost & consumers are benefiting at long last.

turning back to questrade, i believe what is happening is that you can comfortably transmit your orders & complete your Chat, with instructions to journal, all easily within 30 minutes, even when you are riding or flying across some wild desert or mountain range located at the back of beyond.

the details themselves will "settle" the following day, but still your work is done within a few minutes, from anywhere on the planet. Yes, it's fabulous.

as for beaches, i hope you'll soon be on the beach of your dreams for a holiday break. No one could deserve it more.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> at the moment, CF is quoting a forex fee of $760 on a $100,000 CAD exchange/wire transfer deal (rate is .8827.)
> (ie for CAD 100,000, CF is quoting to deliver 88,270 USD)
> 
> for a $50,000 CAD exchange/wire transfer deal, CF is quoting a forex fee of $455 (rate is .8812)



Wow...I cant even get a quote out of them since the forex market is closed. How did you do it?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> Wow...I cant even get a quote out of them since the forex market is closed. How did you do it?




on their customer rates page ... forex trading goes on 24/7/365, so it should be possible to pull a quote any hour of the day or night. Also on xe.com, a website that i prefer because it presents more elaborate conversion details.

http://www.canadianforex.ca/customer-rates

interestingly, canforex customer USD rates have right now dropped back to what they were 24 hours ago (88.27) but i noticed that yesterday they traced a lacklustre trajectory higher by a few pips, then fell back again this am.

this suggests to me that very few money centres are open over saturday/sunday weekend, especially for CAD. Dubai, maybe? so quotes appear to be stationary, but actually they are live, insofar as they are basing on the last trade on an inactive day or night.

the canforex website also displays the spot exchange rate, they call it the "market" rate. When the Bank of Canada snaps pictures of this spot rate, at noon & at the close mondays to fridays, it's called the bank of canada rate.

customers seeking to exchange currencies on canadian forex do *not* receive the spot or market rate. Their transactions are priced at the lower customer rate, ie they pay an FX fee to canforex. I imagine this could be more beneficial than a canadian bank fee, especially for smaller amounts.

however if the OP in this thread (if she has managed to read this far!) is exchanging a substantial amount, she might want to negotiate her rate with her royal bank. For amounts of $100,000 or more, i imagine that roybank's rate would match, or be very close to, the canadian forex rate.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

m3s said:


> That's awesome!.. Professional financial planning consultants now rewriting what originally came from an online DIY financial forum!! (Norbert Schlenker on FWF)


And with complete instructions and screen shots by financial institution.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> on their customer rates page ... forex trading goes on 24/7/365, so it should be possible to pull a quote any hour of the day or night.


Heres what I get on my account trying to get a quote

"As the foreign exchange market is closed we cannot provide a live dealing rate at the moment. The market is open from Monday 7am in Sydney right through to Friday 5pm in New York. Please try again when the market is open. "

What market are they referring to?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Eder said:


> Heres what I get on my account trying to get a quote
> 
> "As the foreign exchange market is closed we cannot provide a live dealing rate at the moment. The market is open from Monday 7am in Sydney right through to Friday 5pm in New York. Please try again when the market is open. "
> 
> What market are they referring to?



good question. I don't have a canforex account, so - very tentatively - i wonder if it might mean that they, as a business firm, don't offer service except during those specified hours? which are quite spacious, if you think about it.

but i did notice that, yesterday, being a saturday, both their customer rate quotes & their market rate quotes wandered up by a few pips, then wandered back down again.

we do know that forex trading goes on 24/7/365, xe.com is adjusting every minute, night & day. But it makes sense to me that a currency trading house would offer service during reasonable business hours. You wouldn't really want to place a live order for CAD/USD on a sunday morning, when there are not likely to be any counterparties around, would you? i would not, any more than i would trade stocks after-hours or pre-market ...

EDIT: reference to royal bank public currency converter removed.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

humble, that RBC one won't give me a quote over $10,000. This is why I avoid B&Ms nowadays... "please contact your local branch"... What are they trying to hide, their spreads?...



> You have requested a conversion amount that exceeds the limit available on this Calculator. To get a rate for conversions over $10,000, please contact your local RBC Branch.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> humble, that RBC one won't give me a quote over $10,000. This is why I avoid B&Ms nowadays... "please contact your local branch"... What are they trying to hide, their spreads?...



u are right, thanks for the alert!

i had last actually used this thing 3 years ago. I didn't realize that, since then, roybank has modified it so much, downwards. Sorry.

they sure are paranoid about hiding their spreads. The roybank calculator is useless now. I'll go back & try to edit my posts, take the roybank reference out.

just out of curiosity, the TD calculator used to work up to 60k. Does anyone know if the big green, too, has dropped its public calculator to a maximum of 10k? lol, this must be what it is like trading in dark rooms


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> That's awesome!.. Professional financial planning consultants now rewriting what originally came from an online DIY financial forum!! (Norbert Schlenker on FWF)


.



RBull said:


> And with complete instructions and screen shots by financial institution.


.

it's really entertaining to see how many excellent original ideas from the independent blithe spirits in this forum get snatched up & copied - for their own profit - by mainstream media.

the other day i glimpsed an article in toronto MM about buying used cars, i swear it was reproducing, point by point, some really great advice that had been posted on here only the prior week.

as for snatching up free ideas from the independent spirits on cmf, then repackaging them in tedious prose & selling them to financial shop clients in a $3,500 fee package ... eeeeuw


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

If you are regularly transferring usd to cad.
Get a usd high interest acct(royal)
It has a 120.00 annual fee but it allows you to transfer from a investment acct to the acct.
Than once you have it inside your regular accts(outside investments)
Deal with the situation.
No,maybe I am missing something(no market risk)


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> u are right, thanks for the alert!
> 
> i had last actually used this thing 3 years ago. I didn't realize that, since then, roybank has modified it so much, downwards. Sorry.
> 
> ...


This public TD exchange calculator stops at $35K - $34999 is highest value allowed for CAD/USD and USD/CAD. It seems to be using a 1.57% spread at those levels, although it rise to 2.5% or 2.7% at low dollar amounts.

TDDI (née Waterhouse) would seem to offer around 0.85% spread on 30K for its discount brokerage customers. This drops to 0.60% at $75K (I think the breakpoint is around 60K). For $100K+, it seems to be using a spread of 0.30% (30 basis points). I believe something like Knightsbridge would run around 10-30 basis points for $100K+ chunks?


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

james4beach said:


> Yes I agree with humble that FX fee is really going to get you. Focus on minimizing this fee; the wire fee is insignificant. I don't know anything about XE -- does anyone here use it? I have no idea what their fee structure is. Comparison of fees.
> 
> FX as part of wire (send CAD, receive USD) : 2.5% to 3.0%
> Brokerage preferred rates (e.g. TDDI) : 1.6% to 2.0%
> Gambit net FX fee : 0.1% to 0.3%


I wouldn't underestimate wire fees, at least if you choose the wrong bank. BMO (and their InvestorLine) charges 0.2% of the transfer value, capped at $125 (~$62,500 transfer), plus a $10 "communication fee", and I believe both attract GST/HST. That worst case transfer would then cost $155.25 in Nova Scotia, or 25 basis points! Admittedly, BMO seems to be outrageous even for a big bank - CIBC banking and TD Waterhouse both have a three-level $30/$50/$80 maximum wire fee. Oddly, CIBC's brokerage seems to show just a $25 fee for "cash transfers out" (and doesn't have a separate wire listing) and RBCDI has $20 wire transfers! Some people are getting hosed on this... 

There doesn't seem to be any indication of the ballpark amount the OP is trying to convert, or which brokerage she has? But since the money is going for a US down-payment, not staying in a brokerage for investment, and gambitting is rather intimidating, it sounds like Knightsbridge/Canadian Forex/XE would be the best way to go? Knightsbridge and CF seem to offer free wire transfers out (XE says there is a fee, but doesn't indicate the amount online as far as I can see).


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> at the moment, CF is quoting a forex fee of $760 on a $100,000 CAD exchange/wire transfer deal (rate is .8827.) (ie for CAD 100,000, CF is quoting to deliver 88,270 USD)
> 
> for a $50,000 CAD exchange/wire transfer deal, CF is quoting a forex fee of $455 (rate is .8812)
> 
> ...


Someone checked XETrade during weekdays and weekends - presumably they were checking small amounts, since they were getting around 160 basis points (1.6%) spreads during the week. This went up to 360 basis points after hours on Friday and into Saturday - presumably either XETrade or some/all of its markets weren't active, or they put in a big safety cushion when they weren't doing live trading. 

For CanadianForex, it is part of the Australian publicly traded company OzForex (once majority-owned by Australia's Macquarrie, a sizeable bank), thus the "Sydney" reference in its hours. I checked tonight (after 10am Monday morning in Sydney, so their markets are open). $100K CAD/USD seems to have a spread of around 70 basis points, with $50K at 85 points and $10K at 125 points (1.25% spread). This seems a little high for large amounts - I don't know if these would get much better when the full North American markets are open, though I can't see why they would. They say to get in touch for better rates over $100K, maybe better sub-$100K rates can be haggled, too? 

Knightsbridge claims spreads of "_between 0.05% and 0.45%_" on "_most_" transfers (and presumably higher on small amounts). I've never dealt with them, but when I made a couple inquiries back in 2010 they indicated that the spread on $150K would have been around 20-30 basis points, and later indicated that they might be able to do 10-15 basis points "especially if you were a regular customer". If you _could_ get 20 basis points on $100K, that's $200, freely transferred to California. At, say, CIBC brokerage, a pair of $7 commissions, plus a few basis points lost to bid/ask, plus wire fee to the US destination is probably $60 minimum. The difference might be worth not having to deal with gambitting stress. It really depends on the amount, as well.


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## Freedom25 (Dec 3, 2011)

NorthernRaven said:


> (...) There doesn't seem to be any indication of the ballpark amount the OP is trying to convert, or which brokerage she has? But since the money is going for a US down-payment, not staying in a brokerage for investment, and gambitting is rather intimidating, it sounds like Knightsbridge/Canadian Forex/XE would be the best way to go? Knightsbridge and CF seem to offer free wire transfers out (XE says there is a fee, but doesn't indicate the amount online as far as I can see).


It's around $530,000 Canadian that I need to move. My brokerage is the RBC Direct Invest. I have accounts at RBC (including an American funds account that is empty), CIBC, Canadian Tire, and Tangerine. Around half is in RBC and the rest is spread between the other 3.

Gambitting is intimidating for sure, probably not a good idea to be doing it for the first time with such a large amount of money. I am wondering, from what people have said (I have read all the posts, but my head is spinning as a lot of it is over my head, but thanks to everyone who replied!), if it's best to transfer into my RBC American Funds account and wire directly to the American account from there? American account is at Wells Fargo.

In the past I have had trouble moving money into my RBC account as they don't seem to like to link electronically to other banks, while my CIBC and ING/Tangerine have had two-way links for years, and I have a one-way link from CIBC TO Canadian Tire (but not from, it seems like they want to just keep the money).

I realize whatever I do will probably not get me the very best rate, but I am hoping to find something that is workable without totally ripping me off. I'm very much a financial muggle, I have been reasonably good at socking it away, but I'm clueless at how to take it out without being taken advantage of. At least I know they are going to try to take advantage of me ... 

And to paraphrase a previous poster's analogy, yes, I am more at the tire-changing level rather than rebuilding either car or transmission!


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## Freedom25 (Dec 3, 2011)

Another question - if I move the Canadian funds money that is at RBC into my American Funds account there, is it just the exchange rate that is charged, and is it a nice clean exchange rate, or one that has hidden fees built into the rate?


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

Use your royal circle privilege(this way your not talking to 'front liners')you qualify.(it's a different phone line for people with 250k investments threshold)
Explain yourself in black and white and listen to what they advise,write down what they are advising and call them back after you understand what your fee's are if any.
With over 500k liquid assets you are in the drivers seat,not them!!(you might get transferable fee's waived)they won't try to dick you around as long as your straight on what you want to do and ask them to repeat what they say in plain english!
That is where i would start.


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## Freedom25 (Dec 3, 2011)

donald said:


> Use your royal circle privilege(this way your not talking to 'front liners')you qualify.(it's a different phone line for people with 250k investments threshold)


How do I know if I have this, and how do I get the number? Do I call the regular number and then they'll give me that info? I should qualify for it, I have other money in an RRSP account that I am not moving, in addition to the ~270,000 that I want to move out.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Freedom25 said:


> It's around $530,000 Canadian that I need to move. My brokerage is the RBC Direct Invest. I have accounts at RBC (including an American funds account that is empty), CIBC, Canadian Tire, and Tangerine. Around half is in RBC and the rest is spread between the other 3.
> ...
> Another question - if I move the Canadian funds money that is at RBC into my American Funds account there, is it just the exchange rate that is charged, and is it a nice clean exchange rate, or one that has hidden fees built into the rate?


If you move YOUR RBC $CAD into your RBC $American account, you are likely to get hit with a high exchange conversion. Not a good idea.

It sounds like RBC is your main bank - here's what I'd probably do, just as a suggestion.

1) Look over KnightsbridgeFX, see if you are comfortable with them. Get in touch and explain that you have $530K that you need to convert to $US and wire to California. Indicate you've seen their "0.05% and up" for spreads - if anything is going to get the low end of that range, $530K should! Tell them you are just exploring your options, and ask what sort of a spread you could expect through them for that amount. Let's say hypothetically they can offer as low as 10 basis points (0.1%), that would be $530.

2) Go to your RBCDI people (Royal Circle if you have it), and tell them you are putting together $530K to convert and transfer to California. If you will be keeping your RRSP with them ongoing, that's helpful leverage as well. TD Waterhouse seems to quote 30 basis points on $100K, so I assume RBCDI would do the same, and possibly have an even better rate for your whale-sized amount. Let them know the quote you get from Knightsbridge and see if they will match it, or at least come close. Say they will do it for 25 basis points, that would be $1325; 20 basis points would be $1060, etc.

3) If they won't closely match, see if the extra cost at RBCDI is worth it to you to avoid having to go through extra steps with Knightsbridge or elsewhere. Check other forex companies if desired, etc.

4) Transfer your money from the other locations into your RBCDI cash account (or your RBC $CAD bank account if not using RBCDI to convert). You should be able to connect an RBC chequing/savings account as an external account at Tangerine, and route via Tangerine in the worst case.

5) If you decide to go with RBC, just have them do the conversion at your agreed rate, and wire the $US result to your California destination ($20). If you go with Knightsbridge or elsewhere, wire the $CAD $530K to Knightsbridge once you have your trade there confirmed ($20), and have them wire the result to California (free).

This seems like the easiest way to go - no gambits, nothing too weird. I don't have firsthand experience with Knightsbridge, but they've been around for a few years. My understanding is your account with them is a segregated Bank of Montreal account. Certainly worth looking into, and getting a rate range for leverage with RBCDI and elsewhere.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

freedom, i'm not a roybank client but every bank, without exception, is poised to charge you FX fees when they convert your CAD into USD.

there is *no* bank account in the world that will ever exchange from one currency to another currency without charging an FX fee. Some types of premium accounts have been created to facilitate these exchanges, sometimes including favourable FX rates ... but they all do charge FX fees.

there are posters in this thread who do have sound knowledge of currency arbitrage procedures, aka gambit trading. Arbitrage = no FX fee. It is the only way to *not* pay any FX fee whatsoever. The arbitrage/gambit trader will pay only the exchange rate that is being realized at the moment of his arbitrage pair by the world's giant money-centre banks. Everybody else is going to pay an FX fee, on a sliding scale, with canadian banks being in the highest range.

northern raven & i are good gambit traders. We have taught many people in this forum. We can see that it is a bit challenging for you right now & we are suggesting - we have both clearly suggested - that you exchange your funds, plus wire your funds, at one of a handful of specialized currency houses. Their FX rates will be less than the big banks. Plus i gather they wire funds onwards, after conversion, without fee.

raven has provided good profiles of exchange houses canadian forex & knightsbridge.

i'd probably favour knightsbridge myself, simply because it is an all-canadian operation that specializes in CAD/USD, having a large snowbird clientele, for example. It is possible to get CAD funds over to knightsbridge via bill payment (ie no charge) from royal bank; from there onwards the operation will be smooth.

with your important amount, you'd want to obtain quotes from knightsbridge, from canadian forex, probably from royal bank & cibc also, although these 2 chartered banks are likely to have the highest FX fees.

best of luck. Let us know how you make out. CAD/USD conversions & their opposite are popular topics, with thousands doing these exchanges every day, so you are helping a lot of onlookers here by getting these details clarified.


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

I am not trying over speak over anyone on the forum
I hold a rbc acct and have a significant amt of usd.
As far as I know(and I am going to call)you can transfer from a non reg acct to a high intrest acct with out trigger fees.
Once the large amy is in place in the us high intrest acct(the worries subside somewhat)you can earn interest on the us side,obviously your not going to convert a half million(would the op)
It's not a bad idea to atleast ask rbc and get squared away from that point as a starting point
I am way off base here humble?
I could swear the non reg accrs are linked to non investments accts(checkings)


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

humble_pie said:


> i'd probably favour knightsbridge myself, simply because it is an all-canadian operation that specializes in CAD/USD, having a large snowbird clientele, for example. It is possible to get CAD funds over to knightsbridge via bill payment (ie no charge) from royal bank; from there onwards the operation will be smooth.
> 
> with your important amount, you'd want to obtain quotes from knightsbridge, from canadian forex, probably from royal bank & cibc also, although these 2 chartered banks are likely to have the highest FX fees.


You can also bill pay to XE online, but there is a max ($20k CAD per day IIRC) so I had to make multiple transfers day after day. Obviously I wasn't moving $530k!!

I would definitely be calling KnightsbridgeFX, MTFX, Canadian Forex to get at least 3 quotes on this and leveraging them against each other. They are negotiable especially at that quantity! XE is more for smaller transfers I would say


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## donald (Apr 18, 2011)

You convert in small chunks while earning interest and have a favorable usd against cad(which by the way is the trend)
It's a bad Idea to convert 500k in any form!
Freaking dangerous for a novice to do that using a listed security on the open market
Jmo


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

donald said:


> Freaking dangerous for a novice to do that using a listed security on the open market
> Jmo


I'll gladly do it at the BoC noon rate for 1 XBT (from the beach)


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

m3s said:


> You can also bill pay to XE online, but there is a max ($20k CAD per day IIRC) so I had to make multiple transfers day after day. Obviously I wasn't moving $530k!!
> 
> *I would definitely be calling KnightsbridgeFX, MTFX, Canadian Forex to get at least 3 quotes on this and leveraging them against each other. They are negotiable especially at that quantity!* XE is more for smaller transfers I would say




excellent suggestions from m3s

roybank's rate will converge down towards the currency houses once they understand the amount ... believe me, if i were the royal bank i'd be throwing in a free wire service to the cali bank, for sure each:

in the end, it will come down to the institution that is the most convenient for you.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Assume the market is perfectly frozen - no change in stock price or exchange rate between pairs of gambit trades. Take a high-value stock, CM (CIBC), at $100+/share - you are looking at 5000 shares. Assume one penny/share on both ask and bid. That's $100, plus $20 for two RBDCI commissions, so you are already over 2 basis points. Then, since a half-million dollar trade should share anyone here silly )), not to mention that 5000 shares looks like 2-3 percent of the daily NYSE volume of CM (!), say you break it up into 5 $100K chunks. That's another $80 in commissions, to $200 and 4 basis points. 5-10 basis points from Knightsbridge or elsewhere (if obtainable) seems like a cheap price for avoiding all this!

In the real world it won't be this frozen - you might pay less if things tick in your direction between trades, but also more if they move against you. Each penny against on the total would be an extra $50 bucks. 

I hope Freedom25 will let us know what Knightsbridge quotes on this amount, if she gets one.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Bank Markup % Source 
RBC 2.60% RBC Exchange Rates 
TD 2.64% TD Bank Exchange Rates 
BMO 2.65% BMO Exchange Rates 
CIBC 3.34% CIBC Foreign Exchange Rates 
Scotia 2.88% Scotia Bank Foreign Exchange Rates 
HSBC 2.10% HSBC Foreign Exchange Rates 
Desjardins 2.49% Desjardins Foreign Exchange Rates


Pretty crappy rates.


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## Freedom25 (Dec 3, 2011)

NorthernRaven said:


> I hope Freedom25 will let us know what Knightsbridge quotes on this amount, if she gets one.


I have a call in to them right now and am waiting for a trader to call me back, and then I will call RBC and possibly the other banks to see what they can do ... I will definitely let you know how it went later on today.

Thanks so much to everyone who has chimed in with ideas and information for me on this. My head is still spinning but it's starting to make some sense, enough at least that they won't be able to fleece me as badly as they could have a few days ago ... ;-)


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Knightbridge quote on 430k USD just now

the rate to buy USD is 1.1255 USD/CAD, subject to change.

Canadian Forex on 430k USD

Selling: CAD 486,425.34
Buying: USD 430,000.00
Rate: CAD/USD 0.8840


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Eder said:


> Knightbridge quote on 430k USD just now
> 
> the rate to buy USD is 1.1255 USD/CAD, subject to change.
> 
> ...


If I understand, when the market/spot/mid rate on USDCAD was 1.1255, Knightsbridge offered to sell USD $430K for CAD $486,425.34? If my math is correct, this puts the effective Knightsbridge USDCAD rate 1.1312, and the offer is 50 basis points over the spot rate, and thus the "cost" is $2460 for this transaction. This would seem disappointing - TD Waterhouse (not known for its generosity to its customers) has its customer calculator quoting $100K at 30 basis points over what various internet sources claim as spot at any given time, much less any better price one might negotiate with them for these much larger sums.

Of course, measuring "cost" is a bit slippery when the exchange rate is constantly jittering anyway. Is Knightsbridge saying that they can manage between X and Y basis points of whatever spot rate is in effect when they make the trade, and these are the numbers that would have come out at some point today when they checked? Did that 1.1255 number come from Knightsbridge, or Eder, and was it the spot price at the time, or some earlier time, or some artificial trading number used to smooth their exposure? If, for instance, you replace 1.1255 with the Bank of Canada noon fix of 1.1261 (a tiny difference), this works out as 45 basis points, not 50.


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## uglyduck (Nov 25, 2014)

NorthernRaven, I think your math is off. reread the post by edar again. You're confusing the rate from "Canadianforex" with Knightsbridge. The knightsbridge rate was 1.1255

Knightsbridge: 1.1255 USDCAD, $483,965.00 CAD = $430,000.00 USD.
Canadianforex: 1.1312 USDCAD (0.8840 inverse), CAD $486,425.34 = USD $430,000.00

Based on the rates, knightsbridgefx is a lot cheaper than canadianforex.




NorthernRaven said:


> If I understand, when the market/spot/mid rate on USDCAD was 1.1255, Knightsbridge offered to sell USD $430K for CAD $486,425.34? If my math is correct, this puts the effective Knightsbridge USDCAD rate 1.1312, and the offer is 50 basis points over the spot rate, and thus the "cost" is $2460 for this transaction. This would seem disappointing - TD Waterhouse (not known for its generosity to its customers) has its customer calculator quoting $100K at 30 basis points over what various internet sources claim as spot at any given time, much less any better price one might negotiate with them for these much larger sums.
> 
> Of course, measuring "cost" is a bit slippery when the exchange rate is constantly jittering anyway. Is Knightsbridge saying that they can manage between X and Y basis points of whatever spot rate is in effect when they make the trade, and these are the numbers that would have come out at some point today when they checked? Did that 1.1255 number come from Knightsbridge, or Eder, and was it the spot price at the time, or some earlier time, or some artificial trading number used to smooth their exposure? If, for instance, you replace 1.1255 with the Bank of Canada noon fix of 1.1261 (a tiny difference), this works out as 45 basis points, not 50.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Oops, I didn't notice that there were two quotes in there, I misread "CanadianForex" as the spot rate for the timeframe of a Knightsbridge quote, and the rest as the details of the Knightsbridge quote.

If Knightsbridge was quoting at 1.1255 today, then at first glance it would seem they had a very minimal spread - the spot rate was 1.1261 at noon according to BoC - it is lower now, but perhaps a few ticks higher whenever Eder got the quote? That would be a very good deal indeed with Knightsbridge. Ideally, it would be nice to get the forex companies to estimate in terms of spread, rather than particular rates, although the details of however they do their currency trading might make this a bit fuzzy.

According to Yahoo, USDCAD has ranged between 1.1231 - 1.1315 today. In theory, CanadianForex's quote might have come when it was, say, 1.1290, resulting in 20 basis points and fairly good deal. Probably not, but without knowing the spot price, or expressing the cost in basis points, it is hard to judge.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I posted the Knightsbridge rate as soon as they called me.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

freedom it's so kind of you to be the eye of the storm & the guinea pig here. FX into USD is such a frequent occurrence & there are so many ways to skin the cat that a thread like this is valuable, precisely because several of these strategies are getting a fair exposure here.

for example, i had no idea until northern raven's roundup above that the different chartered banks had such different rates for wiring money. Who knew?

one can only marvel at the power of the internet. In the bad old days, one would have gone meekly to one's neighbourhood bank branch & paid whatever exchange rate & whatever wire service fee they ordered.

today one can summon virtual friends from across canada to suss out currency brokers, exchange rates & wire charges in a nano-second.


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## NorthernRaven (Aug 4, 2010)

Eder's post was at 19:09 GMT, and USDCAD was at 1.1237 at 19:00 GMT. That would be about 16 basis points. But at 18:56 GMT it was 1.1242 (11 basis points), and the quote might have been from longer before they called back, at an even better spread. All you really want to know is that they'll execute the trade and tack on a spread within some defined range; you can't control exactly when they pull the trigger.

All that can be said is that a Knightsbridge quote at one time of day was much better than a CanadianForex quote at a somewhat different time. It looks like Knightsbridge is going to beat CF on this sort of sum, but it would nice to get CF to indicate specifically what sort of spread they might offer.


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## Freedom25 (Dec 3, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> ( ... ) one can only marvel at the power of the internet. In the bad old days, one would have gone meekly to one's neighbourhood bank branch & paid whatever exchange rate & whatever wire service fee they ordered.
> 
> today one can summon virtual friends from across canada to suss out currency brokers, exchange rates & wire charges in a nano-second.


Yes! I would have been totally at the mercy of the evil banks without the help of this forum. I would have known I was being ripped off, but totally at a loss of what to do about it.

So I did call Knightsbridge and got a quote (around noon Pacific time - or maybe it was earlier) for 1.125. I was confused at this as I thought that was the spread he was quoting me, but he explained it to me and reassured me that the spread was 0.05% as I was moving such a large amount.

I'm going to go with them, he was so helpful, and I am sure no bank is going to meet that spread, so I didn't even call RBC. He explained which of my banks are easy to deal with and which ones suck, and I do have electronic connections from the difficult banks to the ones that don't suck, so I will compile the dough in the two good banks, and he says that even though it will be large amounts I can phone them when it's time to move it to their account and they will walk me through it, they have moved large amounts from my good banks (RBC and Tangerine) before.

Even creating the account was easy, I sent the easy paperwork back and they created it around 10 minutes later, and he says it only takes around a day to move the money once it's time to move it. Plus (I'm including all these details for people who might need the info later), if I want to wait for a certain rate, I can give them that rate and they will do the transfer when the market hits that rate, and / or they can move it in pieces at no extra fees, and send it to various accounts in the States too.

So, thank you everybody who gave me advice on this! So many different strategies, and I think this one suits my comfort level best with risk and bureaucracy, especially since the traders are so helpful. It is a darned good rate, too.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Glad you saved some serious dough!

So Knightsbridge said Tangerine was a good bank for them!? I get polarized opinions on it (some people freak out and say it will be a nightmare, the end of the world!.. then others ask me if they should switch to this Tangerine themselves lol) It is definitely still handy to have TD on the rare occasion that someone refuses to deal with a little online bank

Tangerine just starting using Touch ID.. the future is here


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

freedom i think you chose exactly the right approach & the right service to carry you through this currency exchange. Bravo!

i hope you're not leaving canada totally, though. Just when we're getting to know you, that would be too bad.


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## mike32795 (Nov 28, 2014)

I think we have the same problem and I wonder how can i solve but thanks some of you guys give some advice and also to my friend who give me this site about Australian ATM Investor it helps me a lot.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

^^

this looks like more spam

i don't understand how moderator can say yesterday the spam problem has been cured?


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