# Tipping Etiquette?



## davext

Hi, I'm noticing more and more places asking for a tip than usual. Here are a few examples:

1) Massage Therapist - are we supposed to tip them? To me, I thought most of the fee goes to the therapist anyway and it'd be like tipping your dentist or chiropractor.

2) Bowling Alley Cashier - I was at a bowling alley the other day in Vaughn where the credit card machine was asking for a tip. What for? We already tip the server for drinks, should we tip the cashier for putting us in the line for an open lane, and activating the lane for us?

3) Golf Pro Shop - When paying for green fees, are we supposed to tip? At a municipal golf course in Mississauga, again the credit card machine asked for a tip. The person just took my money for green fees and pull cart and I was on my way. It's not like they carried my bags or served me food. Actually, she did get a bottle of water from the fridge behind her for me. 

In all the cases above, I did not tip. Should I have? Any other examples?


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## KaeJS

davext said:


> are we supposed to tip them?


Are you supposed to tip anybody?

Tips are such a sham. I only tip like $1 when I go places, if I tip at all.

Why should I cover the employer's cost? Not my problem.


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## jamesbe

It's their job! I don't get tipped for doing my daily work. Servers do not get paid min wge so sure they deserve a tip but pretty much everyone else is mooching.


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## Homerhomer

KaeJS said:


> Are you supposed to tip anybody?
> 
> Tips are such a sham. I only tip like $1 when I go places, if I tip at all.
> 
> Why should I cover the employer's cost? Not my problem.


You obviously never had a pleasure of delivering pizza or working for a restaurant.

Bet you would have complained if the prices went up because the restaurants owners would have to pay the staff appropriately or reimburse the pizza drivers for their gas.

I don't see why anyone should tip massage therapist or other professionals who are paid accordingly.


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## ddkay

Always tip 12-15%, unless they emit some bad vibes then they get nothing. Oh yeah, and only if there is food or drinks involved. Tipping the cashier at the bowling alley? Forget about it.


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## KaeJS

Homerhomer said:


> You obviously never had a pleasure of delivering pizza or working for a restaurant.


I worked in a restaurant for 3 years, and it was hardly a pleasure.

Tipping is a sham.

Servers make more money than you would ever dream they make and 75% of it is tax-free.

The difference in labour costs between paying an employee $1 extra per hour will be minimalistic in my expense when eating at a restaurant. Hardly the expense I would pay in tips. 

Also, do you think that restaurant owners can increase prices any further? Eating out is already a sham in itself.

$5 for a domestic beer, for example? LOL. What a joke.

It costs a restaurant $200 for one Keg of beer. A keg of beer produces tons of pints.


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## uptoolate

It may be that the new portable credit and debit card readers just default to that in places where there may be a restaurant or bar at the business. Such as a bowling alley or golf course. Interesting on the RMT. Hard to know where the line is. You wouldn't expect to tip your dentist as you said or your doctor but you would your barber or hair stylist so who knows. I agree though, tips in any of the situations you described would be a bit much.


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## KaeJS

ddkay said:


> Always tip 12-15%.


This is the reason I don't have to tip.


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## ddkay

I've been to some restaurants with groups where the owner demanded 20% gratuity, pretty insane. Needless to say we never went back.


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## Homerhomer

KaeJS said:


> I worked in a restaurant for 3 years, and it was hardly a pleasure.
> 
> Tipping is a sham.
> 
> Servers make more money than you would ever dream they make and 75% of it is tax-free.
> 
> The difference in labour costs between paying an employee $1 extra per hour will be minimalistic in my expense when eating at a restaurant. Hardly the expense I would pay in tips.
> 
> Also, do you think that restaurant owners can increase prices any further? Eating out is already a sham in itself.
> 
> $5 for a domestic beer, for example? LOL. What a joke.
> 
> It costs a restaurant $200 for one Keg of beer. A keg of beer produces tons of pints.


I don't have to dream how much money they make, I know.

Do you really believe that the restaurants and other food places would be able to hire staff for a $1 more than they are paying them right now? How about 4, 5 or ten times more depending on the place. They sometimes don't even get paid the minimum wage, and obviously most of the tips never get claimed as income, to make up for that the owners would have to pay them way more than additional $1 per hour. Pizza drivers don't even get gas reimbursed, let alone car repairs or a parking ticket, if you think it's fair not to tip them than I really don't know man.

$5 for a beer is not a joke, are they suppose to go to beer store and resale it for the same price?, what about rent, utilities and many other expenses, what about profit for the owners? Are they suppose to put up 80 hours per week and not get compensated for it?


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## hystat

If people make less than min wage, I'll tip.
But the 15% thing is ridiculous when the food or bev prices are cranked. 
I was at a hotel near the airport where a bottle of coors light was $9.50
As if I'm going to give the guy $1.50 tip to pop the cap. 
50 cents per drink is enough at any bar sans entertainment.


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## hystat

couple of other instances where I tip above and beyond:
full serve gas jockeys in winter extremes
any bar/restaurant where there is free entertainment that I enjoy


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## KaeJS

Homerhomer said:


> 1. I don't have to dream how much money they make, I know.
> 
> 2. Do you really believe that the restaurants and other food places would be able to hire staff for a $1 more than they are paying them right now?
> 
> 3. Pizza drivers don't even get gas reimbursed, let alone car repairs or a parking ticket, if you think it's fair not to tip them than I really don't know man.
> 
> 4. $5 for a beer is not a joke, are they suppose to go to beer store and resale it for the same price?, what about rent, utilities and many other expenses, what about profit for the owners? Are they suppose to put up 80 hours per week and not get compensated for it?


1. If you know how much money they make... Then why do you not agree?

2. Yes. I do. I know what the profit margins are. The ones that can't make it, well, that's the nature of business. Close up shop. Like Darwin, survival of the fittest. 

3. Gas, Repairs and tickets are not my problem. Buy a 4 cylinder. Do regular maintenance on the car and learn how to do it yourself. Tickets? LOL. It's definitely not my fault at all if a pizza delivery man gets a ticket. That's his own fault.

4. They already get a deal on the beer. Can you walk into the beer store and get a Keg for $200? No, you can't. Not without a license. They would easily be able to sell a pint for less than $5.

Regardless - The point is that a server makes more money than I do, so I'm not going to tip them.


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## donald

Hey kaejs,what if the server is a 22yr old 5ft10 burnette that's smiling @ you and tossing her hair?lol.

I think tipping has it's place, sometimes good service is worth the tip(crowed restaurant and you can tell your server is going out of there way)

I usually tip a pizza guy.I use to work @ a golf course cleaning clubs for members in my youth and the tipping was how we made most of our money,so that sticks with me if im on the other side of services.


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## KaeJS

donald said:


> Hey kaejs,what if the server is a 22yr old 5ft10 burnette that's smiling @ you and tossing her hair?lol.


Then I'm smart enough to know she just wants the tip (no pun intended) 

Some people quit their full time jobs to work at certain bars/clubs/restaurants because the money is so good. I'd quit, too, if I could make $300 a night in cash + $9/hour for 5 hours taxable income.


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## ddkay

It's a little harder for guys. Have you read about Japan's mancession in the service sector? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...rvice-jobs-as-mancession-spurs-deflation.html


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## donald

You gotta admit,restaurant owners/chains (earls for example)have got the right idea.If i owned a restaurant the first thing i would do is hire young,goodlooking females(they all do)

When i work at the golf course it was riduculous what the cart girl would haul in!She had the ultimate niche market!600 (semi)wealthy men on a golf course getting drunk and the male ego,and every other weekend a corporate golf tournment would be booked and she would have high exuectives throwing $$ around.She made a mint!and she held that job for yrs because she was the ''cart girl" no matter how you slice it a beautiful young friendly female has the world by the tail in service business....sex sells.


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## Jericho

Homerhomer said:


> I don't have to dream how much money they make, I know.
> 
> Do you really believe that the restaurants and other food places would be able to hire staff for a $1 more than they are paying them right now? How about 4, 5 or ten times more depending on the place. They sometimes don't even get paid the minimum wage, and obviously most of the tips never get claimed as income, to make up for that the owners would have to pay them way more than additional $1 per hour. Pizza drivers don't even get gas reimbursed, let alone car repairs or a parking ticket, if you think it's fair not to tip them than I really don't know man.
> 
> $5 for a beer is not a joke, are they suppose to go to beer store and resale it for the same price?, what about rent, utilities and many other expenses, what about profit for the owners? Are they suppose to put up 80 hours per week and not get compensated for it?


I've seen restaurant books before and they do make a killing, depending on the franchise.

$5.00 for a beer is a joke. Do you know what? It's the nature of the beast. If you're unskilled or are trying to earn extra money, good on you. DO NOT assume I owe a tip. DO NOT treat me any differently because I didn't 'tip' you. I believe tips are for outstanding service. 'Automatic gratuity' doesn't make sense. I know many businesses in the US especially demand this.

Since I've buckled down and caught the investing bug, I will only be tipping if I feel the person went well beyond their normal duties to make me feel like a valued customer. Until then, I will be paying for the cost of my meal and that's that.


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## ghostryder

KaeJS said:


> Servers make more money than you would ever dream they make and 75% of it is tax-free.



You mean "tax free until you get caught". Then it's tax, interest, penalties.....


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## slacker

This thread on tipping will be epic, just like the last one:

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php?t=3693&highlight=tipping


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## m3s

KaeJS said:


> Tipping is a sham.
> 
> Servers make more money than you would ever dream they make and 75% of it is tax-free.


The tax evasion is the real sham of the whole thing

The tipping is just one of the backfired NA cultures. It makes sense in many countries for service jobs but it shouldn't become a "wage supplement" like it has in NA. Managers should set the wages, instead of customers penalizing waitresses for things out of their control (slow food, dirty washroom, maybe poor looks)


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## Four Pillars

mode3sour said:


> ... it shouldn't become a "wage supplement" like it has in NA. Managers should set the wages, instead of customers penalizing waitresses for things out of their control (slow food, dirty washroom, maybe poor looks)


+1


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## Ethan

It bothers me when restaurants charge a gratuity of 15% for groups of 8 or more, even when you book in advance. Name me one other business where they charge additional fees for bringing them extra business.

I also believe most tip money goes unreported. This bothers me given I have multiple income streams I declare that I could easily not report (ie rental income, contract work etc.).


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## the-royal-mail

There are lots of waitresses that provide really great service. Like when they're sharp, attentive, get our orders right and deliver them promptly and generally have a good attitude. I don't mind tipping those waitresses.

What offends me is a tip jar at a cash register at a takeout place. Why should I pay a tip if I went somewhere and had to stand in line and pick up the food myself?


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## m3s

Because the people working behind the counter can be sharp, attentive, get your order right, and deliver on time? Same same. Those are kind of basic expectation to get the correct order on time imo... That should be covered in their wages and then tip for the extra good attitude ect. I've been to sketchy places where I was happy for tip the "security guard" to be extra attentive of my stuff or for any other extra attention. Tipping to supplement min wage defeats the purpose


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## Guigz

Although I always tip at restaurants, I don't get tipping at all. Why can't I pay the price on the menu and that is it?

I would much rather the restaurant list the full price (including taxes, tips and all other levies) that has to be paid to enjoy said meal than to screw around adding all kind of extra fees in my head.

To those that say that the restaurants can't raise their prices - it does not matter whether it is included or not, most people still pay it in the end. If all restaurants did it, it would no longer be a problem.


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## KaeJS

Guigz said:


> Although I always tip at restaurants, I don't get tipping at all. Why can't I pay the price on the menu and that is it?


*AHHHHHHhhhhhhh!*

But you *CAN*, my fellow friend. You just choose not to. 

Stop being a sheep and start becoming a wolf.


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## ddkay

All animals are sheep. That wolf looks shopped, I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.

You could dine and dash too, it's just as awkward because society says you normally have to 'pay' for your meals.


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## KaeJS

ddkay said:


> All animals are sheep. That wolf looks shopped, I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.


Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. If you are, excuse my post.

But of course its a shop, look at the body composure. There is no muscle and breadth like a wolf would have. Also, where is the tail? Plus, sheep have wool, and a wolf has hair.


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## m3s

ddkay said:


> That wolf looks shopped, I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.


Yet the hooves and sheep wool was not telling enough?


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## ddkay

You guys don't know the "This looks shopped..." meme? Nevermind, I had to explain...


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## KaeJS

Sorry, don't know the meme.

Post it up?

This one:


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## Sherlock

I usually tip 10% at restaurants unless the waiter was exceptional in some way, in which case I tip more.


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## Toronto.gal

KaeJS said:


> 2. Close up shop. Like Darwin, survival of the fittest.
> 3. Gas, Repairs and tickets are not my problem.


2. True enough, c'est la vie.
3. You're so heartless, lol, but the gas is your problem if you wish to have the pizza delivered to your home, don't you think so?


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## KaeJS

Toronto.gal said:


> 3. You're so heartless, lol, but the gas is your problem if you wish to have the pizza delivered to your home, don't you think so?


The gas is _not_ anyone's problem but the guy driving.

There are other jobs out there if he doesn't like the one he's got. Does anyone tip people to commute and sit in traffic for 1.5 hours a day? Nope. There are other jobs closer to home if they don't like it.

Not heartless, I just believe in evolution and capitalism. If it's such a bad gig, then the worker will move on.

Edit:

Let me break it down....

1. If people are willing to work for the money they receive, then the gasoline is only the worker's problem.
2. If the workers are not willing to work for this wage, it becomes to employer's problem.
3. If the employer is unable to turn a profit, it becomes the customers problem in terms of high prices
4. If the customer feels that ordering expensive pizza has become of little value, then the employer has a problem again.

If you want to hire an employee to come work at your office, do you give them gas money? We already pay a delivery charge on delivered pizza.


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## the-royal-mail

You can save this entire battle by picking up pizza in person. Call them and place your order and in 15 mins you show up. No need to frustrate any pizza drivers.

P.S. Those girls in the cartoon above are hot.


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## Homerhomer

Toronto.gal said:


> 3. You're so heartless,


This and I don't get why Kaej can't understand if everyone was so cheap like him he would have to pay much more for the meal or delivery.

Right now 90%(guesstimate) of poeple tip, if nobody was tipping the staff wouldn't work for the wages they would be getting, so the 10% of cheapasses would actually had to pay more, now they don't because the other 90% pays for them.

The argument of office employee being paid gas money is just as silly, usually office employees don't get paid to come to work, but to get reimbursed for business travel, I know I do. Restaurants/delivery are just a unique business where the staff is paid via tips, rightly or wrongly, that's how it is.

Not everything is black and white, shades of grey do exist ;-)


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## financialnoob

I don't mind tipping for places I frequent a lot. I get really good service, and usually some free food or dessert or drinks at the places I like a lot.

There's also some value in being in a bar behind a massive hoard of people but putting up your hand and getting served before everyone. Well worth the buck or two tip to save myself ten minutes.

But if it's crap service, screw it. It's a gratuity, not a God-given right.


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## uptoolate

the-royal-mail said:


> You can save this entire battle by picking up pizza in person. Call them and place your order and in 15 mins you show up. No need to frustrate any pizza drivers.
> 
> P.S. Those girls in the cartoon above are hot.


I think those girls may be shopped RM. And I've seen a quite a few shops in my time.


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## donald

Its a case by case basis of course,sometimes there is the "pay it forward" thing meaning-what you give in this world comes back @ you-karma and it has nothing to do with $.

Ive had several instances when im in a drive thru(hortons)and the drive thru sever has told me don't worry about it a driver in front of you has paid,that's the kinda stuff that feels good.(i do it from time to time myself)

If im @ a restaurant and my server is a ''working mom" @ a breakfast stop i always tip know matter what....Tipping,smiling @ strangers,saying hello to clearks can have a big impact and there good habits to form.(for both giver and reciver)

Im not looking @ things with rose coloured glasses either...I honestly believe what you put out comes back...Id hate to form a habit of having a cost for cost basis on all things in life(i already do that in business)Im not saying throw 20s around or anything but the last thing i want to do is form the habit of pinching a penny so tight my *** squeeks just my thoughts on the matter.


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## Guigz

KaeJS said:


> *AHHHHHHhhhhhhh!*
> 
> But you *CAN*, my fellow friend. You just choose not to.
> 
> Stop being a sheep and start becoming a wolf.


I am pretty sure the cops, or the Great Khali for that matter, would disagree with me not paying taxes.

When I say the price on the menu, I *mean* it.


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## Plugging Along

I do tip almost all the time usually 18 - 20% for good to decent service, and up to 30% for fabulous service. I also may factor in a little more, since I have two little ones who can be rather messy, so I put a tipping premium for that. I generally follow the guidelines from Emily Post (one of the more recent additions). I will not tip or reduce in cases where the service is extremely poor. If it's at the point where I believe the service is that poor, I will follow up with the manager usually while I am there or afterwards. This gives them an opportunity to rectify the issue. 

I also HATE it when they automatically put on tip. If it is poor service I will argue that, and have had it reduced. I also inform them that by doing this auto charge, they will have no hope of getting more from me. 

My general thoughts are that if you don't accept that you need to include tip on top of the meal, then don't come out with us. I had one friend who would not tip, because he didn't have alot of extra money, and felt it was already too much money to eat out. That's totally his perogative, we told him that we felt it was rude not to tip (unless it's poor service), and that we don't feel that it's fair that we have to put in his share of tip. We just said it was better for us not go out for dinner if he didn't have the cash for the tip. He also felt pretty bad that we would still compensate for his share (he is awesome guy). 



KaeJS said:


> The gas is _not_ anyone's problem but the guy driving.
> 
> There are other jobs out there if he doesn't like the one he's got. Does anyone tip people to commute and sit in traffic for 1.5 hours a day? Nope. There are other jobs closer to home if they don't like it.
> 
> Not heartless, I just believe in evolution and capitalism. If it's such a bad gig, then the worker will move on.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Let me break it down....
> 
> 1. If people are willing to work for the money they receive, then the gasoline is only the worker's problem.
> 2. If the workers are not willing to work for this wage, it becomes to employer's problem.
> 3. If the employer is unable to turn a profit, it becomes the customers problem in terms of high prices
> 4. If the customer feels that ordering expensive pizza has become of little value, then the employer has a problem again.
> 
> If you want to hire an employee to come work at your office, do you give them gas money? We already pay a delivery charge on delivered pizza.


I think this is a really simplistic view. People take jobs based on what is considered the 'norm' or the expectations of the job in terms of overall compensation, work, etc. Some one who takes a job as a waiter/waitress factors in the tips as their overall compensation. Right or wrong, this is how it is. It's no different than other occupations that you may or may not agree with in terms of salary. As someone else said, then it's the rest of the population that pays for non tippers share. 

My best friend waitressed, and after serving 1 large table pretty for 1/2 (3+ hours) the night, they left less than 1% tip (under $5 on a $600+ tab). She couldn't figure out why (she's really great as a waitress). She respectfully asked them for feedback on how the service was, as they were lingering around and finishing drinks. They asked her why, and she just said she wanted to get feedback if the service so so bad. Well the cheap guy that paid the final bill with his credit card to get points, didn't pay his share, and pocketed the tip because he didn't beleive in tip. Don't know what the point was, just that I do think that the people that are 'hurt' by the non tippers are not the owners, but rather the employees. 

Sure, some of them make great money, but for some, this is a second or third job that is there to help them make ends meet. I figure they need the money more than me. 




donald said:


> Its a case by case basis of course,sometimes there is the "pay it forward" thing meaning-what you give in this world comes back @ you-karma and it has nothing to do with $.
> 
> Ive had several instances when im in a drive thru(hortons)and the drive thru sever has told me don't worry about it a driver in front of you has paid,that's the kinda stuff that feels good.(i do it from time to time myself)
> 
> If im @ a restaurant and my server is a ''working mom" @ a breakfast stop i always tip know matter what....Tipping,smiling @ strangers,saying hello to clearks can have a big impact and there good habits to form.(for both giver and reciver)
> 
> Im not looking @ things with rose coloured glasses either...I honestly believe what you put out comes back...Id hate to form a habit of having a cost for cost basis on all things in life(i already do that in business)Im not saying throw 20s around or anything but the last thing i want to do is form the habit of pinching a penny so tight my *** squeeks just my thoughts on the matter.


Couldn't have said it better. I do believe in karma and really looking at the bigger picture. I think if you try to squeeze your money so tight, you'll miss out on the bigger picture. I figure anyone who has money to eat out at a restaurant, then they aren't hurting so much that they can't pay it forward.


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## uptoolate

Oh I love your friends experience with the guy paying with his credit card for points after collecting all the money. Was probably quite proud of himself getting a free meal and maybe then some. Great of your friend to call them on it. Sure some of his 'friends' weren't too happy about her getting stiffed.


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## KaeJS

Plugging Along said:


> Sure, some of them make great money, but for some, this is a second or third job that is there to help them make ends meet. I figure they need the money more than me.


I don't think they need it more than me. I also think the majority of people care less about money than I do. As such, I don't like tipping.

I am not obligated, nor do I owe the world anything. They don't owe me anything, either.

It's cold and heartless - sure. But if I tipped, I would feel bad/uneasy about it on the inside. I would feel taken advantage of and I genuinely would rather not tip. I've gotta look out for my comfort level and well being before I look out for someone else. 

If it makes me feel uneasy, why should I do it?

Sorry guys.


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## KaeJS

Plugging Along said:


> My best friend waitressed, and after serving 1 large table pretty for 1/2 (3+ hours) the night, they left less than 1% tip (under $5 on a $600+ tab).


She's being ungrateful now. They still left $5. They didn't have to leave anything. As I said in my post above, they do not owe her anything. They left $5. That's nice of them.

But see... obviously she was not happy about it, which is why you know about the story. This makes me want to tip even less. If I tip $2 on a $25 bill, I can just picture the princess-like waitress with her snarky "They didn't even tip 10%! What a cheap ***!" comments.

And yes, they do make these comments. ALL the time.

And if you break it down by hour, she still made more than minimum wage. There are people that work a lot harder than she does for $10.25 and they are taxed on all of it.


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## Plugging Along

KaeJS said:


> I don't think they need it more than me. I also think the majority of people care less about money than I do. As such, I don't like tipping.
> 
> I am not obligated, nor do I owe the world anything. They don't owe me anything, either.
> 
> It's cold and heartless - sure. But if I tipped, I would feel bad/uneasy about it on the inside. I would feel taken advantage of and I genuinely would rather not tip. I've gotta look out for my comfort level and well being before I look out for someone else.
> 
> If it makes me feel uneasy, why should I do it?
> 
> Sorry guys.


There is no need to feel sorry about it. That's just what you believe. As you feel uneasy tipping because you feel advantage of, I feel uneasy not tipping in many situations. I like money too, but it's not my first priority, for me its about people (even with people I don't know). For me, it is a sad day when money takes over people. Sure it's not a requirement, but if I know ahead of time that's the expectation, then I factor it in. 

We'll just have to agree that we will never go out for dinner in a place where tip is customary. Perhaps Taco Bell...


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## Plugging Along

KaeJS said:


> She's being ungrateful now. They still left $5. They didn't have to leave anything. As I said in my post above, they do not owe her anything. They left $5. That's nice of them.
> 
> But see... obviously she was not happy about it, which is why you know about the story. This makes me want to tip even less. If I tip $2 on a $25 bill, I can just picture the princess-like waitress with her snarky "They didn't even tip 10%! What a cheap ***!" comments.
> 
> And yes, they do make these comments. ALL the time.
> 
> And if you break it down by hour, she still made more than minimum wage. There are people that work a lot harder than she does for $10.25 and they are taxed on all of it.



It's not ungrateful, but rather disbelief. Here is a group of professionals or 'suits' that clearly have money, that come in a pub, spend hundreds of dollars, and the person paying takes his friend/collegues money, and stiff someone. I would be humilated if my collegues had to pay for my share, little less that I STOLE money from someone else. The money each person paid, was for the waitress, the guy took it. I would really think poorly of that person. Fine, if you don't want to tip, that's fine, but don't take the tip from everyone on the table. Would it be acceptable for a person to go into a restaurant and take tips off of the table. Same thing. 
BTW, she would have made under min wage for those 3 hours, and she would claim most of her tips (I used to help with her taxes). The good news was that the table was so horrified, they made him pay his share, and they doubled her tip. 

I think $5 dollars on a $600+ bill, is like 20 cents on your $25. There's a big difference. If the wait staff is saying 'What a cheap ***', that has nothing to do with being princess, their just calling a spade a spade. Like you said no one has to tip, but it is considered the norm, and if one chooses not to tip on a $25 meal, then they are being cheap.


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## DanFo

I was on a cruise end of November..Tips are automatic on any drinks you buy (>$5 a drink)...I tipped the bartender a little cash and the last three days me and ppl i was with were getting beers cheap..... 4 for the price of 1or 4 for the price of a pop by the last day and a half....3 bottles of wine for the price of one, needless to say we tipped a little more but the 30-50 in cash we tipped the guy probably saved us ~300 in booze over the last three days. Locally I usually leave 10-20% if the service is good depending on the group size...I go to the same place to watch PPV fights when there on and I've never been left standing without a table even when it's super busy...Do i have to tip...Nope.... but it isn't going to put me out and if i didn't want to spend the money I'd just make my own meals at home anyway


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## the-royal-mail

Actually, in the case of the $600 bill above, a 15% tip would have been about $90. So the waitress was definitely right to feel ripped off. Those large groups are extremely demanding and stressful for waitresses and not all of them can pull it off. The groups tend to be noisy and rowdy and demand lots of attention, else they start complaining fairly quickly. If the waitress provided good service, I personally would leave her $5-10 and would expect everyone else at the table to leave a similar amount. I'm not going to demand it but anyone who thinks a minimum wage earner shouldn't get a 15% tip after providing excellent service to a big, loud group is not being fair. I have always maintained that the hardest workers in our society are the ones who make the least. Let's be grateful toward the waitresses that work hard to please us.


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## Homerhomer

Plugging Along said:


> The good news was that the table was so horrified, they made him pay his share, and they doubled her tip.
> 
> .


Well that's good ending to the story, we had a similar situation, few of us paid good tip and the cheappy started to collect our money from the table because the staff didn't deserve it, we made him put it back and he never went out with us again (another good news) and we continue to receive a fantastic service at this place, just like we always had.


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## davext

lol. I think we're making good conversation but getting a bit side tracked. I agree with the tipping for food/drinks but how about all the other places that ask for a tip when you use your credit card and the machine prompts you? 

Has anyone else been noticing this? 

My examples were:

Massage Therapist
Golf Pro Shop
Bowling Alley Lane Cashier


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## the-royal-mail

That might be more of an issue with debit/cc machines than the service provider. Might depend on how interac has the place classified? Not sure about that as my grocery store never asks me for a tip. Could that be a default setting in the machine that needs to be disabled?


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## jamesbe

Two years in a row I have had a large party (at xmas time) where we ordered about $200 in pizzas. When the delivery guy shows up I hand him $20. I'm not a huge tipper.

But both times it was a different driver and the look in their face is priceless. WHOA! Thank you SIR! Merry X-mas!

That's the only time I find it worth it, when I see the reaction at least I know they appreciated it. Not like delivering 10 pizzas is any harder than delivering 1 really.


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## Four Pillars

Here are my thoughts on tipping (I'm against it):

http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/the-tipping-point/


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## nathan79

I have no issue with tipping, but I do take issue with the amount we're expected to tip, which has been steadily increasing.

10% used to be considered acceptable and standard, but over the last several years the expected amount has steadily increased to 15% and sometimes as much as 20%. It's getting to the point where if you don't tip the "standard" 15% you risk insulting someone. 

I wonder how much of this is based on US tipping protocol, which has long been 15-20% due to the fact that servers in many states often make well below minimum wage -- as little as $2.13 an hour in Virginia. In these locations, a server completely relies on their tips to raise their income to minimum wage, so I think a 20% tip is entirely justifiable. 

But here in Canada, where most servers make minimum wage, I think that 10%, and up to 15% for exceptional service, is perfectly acceptable. This upward pressure on tipping is simply adding to already inflated cost of dining out. The net result will be fewer people dining out, which will hurt servers more than getting a slightly lower tip.


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## Potato

nathan79 said:


> But here in Canada, where most servers make minimum wage


To be fair, those in positions where tips are normal have a lower minimum wage than the regular minimum wage. In Ontario, $8.90 vs 10.25. It's not quite as big a difference as in some places, but you can see that the expectation of at least some tips has been built into the system.


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## nathan79

True; both BC and Ontario have slightly lower rates for liquor servers, and Quebec has a $8.35 minimum wage for all tipped employees. As far as I know, those are the only three provinces that have a lower rate for certain employees.

Like I said, I don't mind tipping a small amount to offset those differences. I usually tip on the pre-tax total; 15% for good service, and 10% for mediocre. I can't remember the last time I didn't tip at least 10%, even though there have been instances when I felt like it.


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## realist

I would personally rather have the cost of service included in the price on the menu. 

Bottom line though, is whether you agree with the culture of tipping or not, you know when you enter a bar or a restaurant that that is the expectation. By entering the establishment you are acknowledging that. I know of a few bars that have banned people for consistently not tipping at all. 

Different institutions and service people is another story all together, but everyone knows that a tip of some amount is expected in a bar or restaurant situation. If you don't like it, don't go to those places.


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## Square Root

We have been around this topic a few times and responses have been consistent. I am a generous tipper because I can afford it and I like to pass some of the wealth on to people less fortunate than me. I especially tip well (say over 20%) at restaurants that we go to regularly and treat us well. A few days ago I took my mother and daughter out for dinner at a favourite restaurant. As usual the service was excellent and so was my tip. The waiter came running outside after he saw the tip, shook my hand and thanked me for the "generous tip". Made me feel good.


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## m3s

Plugging Along said:


> My best friend waitressed, and after serving 1 large table pretty for 1/2 (3+ hours) the night, they left less than 1% tip (under $5 on a $600+ tab). She couldn't figure out why (she's really great as a waitress). She respectfully asked them for feedback on how the service was, as they were lingering around and finishing drinks. They asked her why, and she just said she wanted to get feedback if the service so so bad. Well the cheap guy that paid the final bill with his credit card to get points, didn't pay his share, and pocketed the tip because he didn't beleive in tip. Don't know what the point was, just that I do think that the people that are 'hurt' by the non tippers are not the owners, but rather the employees.


This story pretty much sums up the whole situation

Does she really deserve ~$150 tax free tip for 3 hours of a min wage job??? Does the dude really have the right to decide her pay for the night? No and no. I like countries where the price is the price and mangers decide how much the server earns, along with the rest of the employees. You can still tip above that of course


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## Plugging Along

^ How does one decide who 'deserves' what wage? That's a seperate discussion all together. Every one will have different opinions on what is deserved or not. The fact is, that one accepts employment, they accept it based on expectations on overall compensation and benefits (both monetary and non monetary). In NA at least, there is an expectation that tipping is part of the compensation for certain jobs.

Also, she did pay tax on it, though I know that it is not the norm.


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## m3s

Plugging Along said:


> ^ How does one decide who 'deserves' what wage? That's a seperate discussion all together. Every one will have different opinions on what is deserved or not. The fact is, that one accepts employment, they accept it based on expectations on overall compensation and benefits (both monetary and non monetary). In NA at least, there is an expectation that tipping is part of the compensation for certain jobs.
> 
> Also, she did pay tax on it, though I know that it is not the norm.


I agree with that, but what I'm saying is managers are in a much better place to set the wage than customers (who tip usually or don't tip for reasons completely out of the server's control anyways) Or why don't we let customers pay all other occupations directly in cash...... (the apply-it-to-everything model answers all questions!)


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## Sherlock

mode3sour said:


> This story pretty much sums up the whole situation
> 
> Does she really deserve ~$150 tax free tip for 3 hours of a min wage job???


I don't think so. A $150 tip is unreasonable and waiters should assume a reasonable maximum, regardless of the total bill. I think $60 would have been reasonable for a $600 bill.

I think the issue with the large group may have been that everyone assumed that someone else will tip and then no one did. I know when my department has a team lunch at the Keg or whatever, I never tip because one of the managers pays with the company credit card and I assume that he includes a tip.


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## cannadian

Hey everybody, I used to be against tipping, but I did some reading and here's my 2 cents as to why the tipping culture is superior!

Server's typically make less than the minimum wage, and restaurant owners aren't required to pay them more as long as the tips push them above min wage. 

So here's the thing, if the tipping culture disappeared, restaurant owners would then increase the server's salaries to compensate, and we would all pay more for our meals to close the increased cost to the employer. 

Basically, instead of us tipping - the tip would be incorporated into the base meal price.

The problem here is that we're paying the same amount of money - but there's no incentive to the server to serve you as best they can. I guess there's some incentive, they need to serve well enough to keep their job - but they certainly aren't working as hard as they can to get as great a tip as they can.

The tipping culture benefits the consumer by allowing us to pay the same price for a better service.


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## KaeJS

cannadian said:


> Server's typically make less than the minimum wage, and restaurant owners aren't required to pay them more as long as the tips push them above min wage.
> 
> So here's the thing, if the tipping culture disappeared, restaurant owners would then increase the server's salaries to compensate, and we would all pay more for our meals to close the increased cost to the employer.


Then people should tip on the amount of the servers time they are using. If a server makes $9.00/hour and a customer is there for one hour, the customer tips $1.25 to make minimum wage.

That's fair.


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## m3s

This thread is full of examples of why people tip or don't tip for reasons other than service. People still serve fine without tip, and they can work the "real" extra tip. By this logic of tipping to cover wages, we should reduce all wages and tip everyone to keep their motivation up? I hate dealing with commission salespeople and I'd rather have a genuinely happy server than one who is pretending to be and also offended by half the tips. What makes servers work so hard for tip if it is already culturally expected anyways? If you tip less for a bad job you're just labeled a cheapskate and get worse service


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## donald

Keep in mind a server does not know in advance with any customer that walks in the door if they are going to be rewarded with no tip,5%,10% ect.

I would almost hazard a guess that after a server has been around a longtime they can sense as they are serving by expierence and picking up a ''six'' sense who is bound to tip what.(and what the characteristics of a cheap skate looks like)

It wouldnt be a streatch that a server starts off with someone and as there is ''tells'' they put less effort into it....Also that 25 yr old server might be putting herself through law school with said job....i think alot of people mistake that,if there generally haughty and high hatted(like some who look down on wait staff)


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## financialnoob

While I agree with the arguments that it would be ideal if restaurant owners paid a living wage and patrons were not expected to compensate for the difference, it is what it is. The government has set separate rules for it in certain provinces, even acknowledging it in various tourist guides for large events. So clearly that's not going to change anytime soon.

I do want to say that there are plenty of places you can get your own food and not tip anyone. But when you go to a place where people are looking after you, there is a cost to that, even if it isn't listed on the menu. It's one thing to be clueless about it as some tourists are. It's another to ignore it.

Don't forget most wait staff also have to tip out a portion of their earnings to the kitchen staff/bus boys/hostesses. This is handled in a variety of ways, from a percentage of total sales (meaning people not leaving a tip actually costs the waiter/waitress money) to sharing from a tip pool.

It's easy to generalize the fancy $600 dinners being lucrative $150 tips for a few hours of work or the busy Saturday night when the place is jammed, but the majority of the time, it's nowhere near that easy at most places, at least not the type of places I tend to go 

Some waitresses can make several hundred dollars on a good night, but make next to nothing on the slower nights. And the physical demands of the job make it tough to do 40 hours, so you're really relying on a limited window of earnings. For many, it's not very lucrative at all, otherwise they'd quit their day jobs or school to do it full-time. The higher-end restaurants are obviously much more lucrative than some sketchy pub, but no matter how much you paid me, you couldn't get me to deal with some of the ridiculous requests I hear from tables nearby. I wouldn't last 10 minutes in the service industry.

To summarize, if you don't like tipping, no big deal, but it doesn't really make much sense to go to places where tipping is expected. You're just aggravating yourself and the wait staff. And if it's a place you go to a lot, I really don't understand the logic in upsetting the people who cook and handle your food and beverages frequently.


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## canadian_investor

I have to agree with the anti-tipping crowd. back in the good olde days, tipping used to be "in advance" and in expectation of (or to ensure) better than ordinary service or special attention or special service.
and it was a much smaller nominal amount.

these days it has all gone completely crazy.
to be very honest i find this practice obnoxious.
i find the adamant expectation of high tips by the food service industry uncouth, demanding, and completely unreasonable.

the wage structure in this industry is frankly their damn problem.
i fail to understand why they should be any different than any other service industry and what makes them so special.
i expect to be charged the full fair and reasonable price for food by the business owner, building in all costs and so on, just like any other business.
if that means a take out lunch order will be $40 instead of $10 well so be it.
i hate this hidden costs agenda.

if we consider tipping as an appreciation of service, then the 20% or 15% is way too high.
for most regular meals at mid scale joints like Keg, Milestones, Montanas an appropriate amount is $5 or $10 for a family, maybe $20 - $25 for a group or 5 - 10 people.
at a more upscale joint, maybe $25 for a couple.

20% of the bill is extortion.

when we go out, we of course tip the usual, regardless of what i think about it.
we normally the tip the same amount as the tax which is 13% here so works out to be the normal range for tips. for exceptional service we do 20%

having said that because of this whole tipping nonsense we have significantly cut back on our eating out over the years.
we got out maybe 3 times a year, just on birthdays and anniversary.
we are quite happy to stay out of this industry and not be a part of this extortion.

our boycott of eating out is good example of how this asinine nonsense is costing the industry good regular customers.


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## slacker

Is it wrong to tip the waitress base on how much cleavage she shows?

On the opposite: is it wrong to give an ugly waitress a bad tip?


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## Dmoney

I have to admit that I have a problem with the tipping "culture" where it's an expectation that you'll tip regardless of the level of service. To the posters who said they don't mind tipping because otherwise you'll get bad service... therein lies the problem... I expect good service because it's your job, not because I'm tipping you. You should get a tip only for excellent service, if you somehow go above and beyond. 

A typical dinner might go something like this:

Her: Hi, my name is Candy, can I start you off with some drinks?
Me: I'll have a Guinness please
Her: Here's your Guinness, are you ready to order?
Me: I'll have the 12 oz striploin, medium rare
Her: Good choice!
10 minutes pass
Her: 12 oz striploin?
Me: Here
Her: Enjoy!
10 more minutes pass
Her: Everything okay?
Me: Great thanks.
20 more minutes pass
Her: Can I get you anything else?
Me: Just the bill please.

How much is this transaction really worth? I could justify $5, maybe $10 but not 15-20% of a $100-200 meal. 

I worked in a restaurant in university as a busboy, and was making close to $1000 a week. That's nuts. An average Thursday/Friday/Saturday I would make $90 in base pay and anywhere from $100-400 in tips. While it was very rare to get $400, just the fact that I could was ridiculous to me. I cleaned up tables, changed kegs etc... A monkey could be trained to do it.

From working that job, two things turned me off tipping.

First of all, the attitude of the servers who got a "bad" tip was appalling. It's a tip, there's no such thing as a bad tip. If the set cost of labour is $X and you get even $1 more, that's a bonus, so don't complain. If you don't like it, get a better job. Don't expect anything more than what's outlined in your contract. 

Second of all, the attitude of the servers when they had to share their tips with me (that was the only way I received my portion of tips) was even more appalling. They would leave without sharing any of their tips, would complain bitterly about having to share their tips, would try anything to weasel their way out of it, complained about the % of tips they had to pay, etc.

The reality is that many people remain as waiters, waitresses and bartenders because the money is amazing. I was working ~35 hours a week and clearing $1000 a week. I'm now working 60-80 hours a week and clearing ~$900 a week. 

A good (looking) waitress can easily make a minimum of more than $200 7 days a week and upwards of $500 on a weekend. As long as the money's there, who can blame them? But I definitely don't feel sorry for them.


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## Plugging Along

Sherlock said:


> I don't think so. A $150 tip is unreasonable and waiters should assume a reasonable maximum, regardless of the total bill. I think $60 would have been reasonable for a $600 bill.
> 
> I think the issue with the large group may have been that everyone assumed that someone else will tip and then no one did. I know when my department has a team lunch at the Keg or whatever, I never tip because one of the managers pays with the company credit card and I assume that he includes a tip.


My friend got under $5 dollars initially on the $600+ bill after more than 3.5 hours of service, as pretty much her only table because these people took up her whole section for the whole time. The reason it was so low, was not because people assume some one was paying the tip, but rather the person who wanted to put it on his credit card to get points, took all their money, and didn't want to tip, so took his dinning mates tip money to pay HIS meal, and then pocketed the rest. Each person other than this one anti tipping theft did put in money for tip (how much exactly, I don't know). To me this is just wrong.

I do the same as you. I've always assumed that if you're in a large group, and one person is paying for it, they also cover tip. I do ask if it's not my family and some is paying for my meal if they want me to cover the tip. 



KaeJS said:


> Then people should tip on the amount of the servers time they are using. If a server makes $9.00/hour and a customer is there for one hour, the customer tips $1.25 to make minimum wage.
> 
> That's fair.


I would agree with this. However, I don't think servers take those jobs to make minimum wage, but at least there is some tip.


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## cannadian

KaeJS said:


> Then people should tip on the amount of the servers time they are using. If a server makes $9.00/hour and a customer is there for one hour, the customer tips $1.25 to make minimum wage.
> 
> That's fair.


Well the point is to tip based on the quality of service. You'll end up paying the same anyways, but on one system there's an incentive for the servers to do the best job possible - on the other system (the one you suggest) there's little to no incentive.

Right now since 90% of the people tip you're getting the increased quality of the tipping system while paying less for your meal, but if we went to a system where there was no tipping you'd be paying MORE for your meal (what the rest of us pay usually) but with worse service. 

Why would you want that?


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## Plugging Along

I know the orginal OP asked tips in general. I do think that in places such as golf course where they have a restaurant/food service plus the regular tees, it may be just a part of the programming.
For other areas, like I said before I use the Emily Post guide to tipping as my reference, though some of them I think have changed.

I also have found tipping to be particularily helpful on cruises. There is a huge expectation to tip on the cruise based on per person, and you tip everyone. The first cruise I went on I was surprised that our tips were close to $300 for the week. However, the people who do work on these cruise lines really do work hard, and do it because in their countries they couldn't make this kind of money, and they are working because of the tips (which they claim). 

After I have been on a few more cruises, I have found pre tipping to be the best thing ever! Especially with kids, a large group, or high maintenance people. The last few times, we have brought over the person in charge of our cabins, and our main waiter at dinner, and gave them a little extra in the beginning. Even though we paid for the cheaper rooms, with less amenities, what a difference. The cabin steward got us all the special toiletries, extra linens, bath rooms, and all the other special things that are researved usually for the more expensive rooms. Any time we needed anything, it was immediate, and they always went the extra way. We really felt for the extra $200 total for our family for the week, it was well worth it, and a much better than an upgrade. Same thing with our head waiter. Travelling with small kids/infants, after the first night she asked us all the preferences especially for the little ones, and made sure they were at the table prior to our arrival. It made it so much more enjoyable.

My point is, I do tip well because partially it's an expectation, and partially because I am fortunate enough I can. I also think it really helps if you are going to be repeating business with the same person. There are a few restaurants that I love here, which are hard to get into. We've frequented enough and built a good relationship (included big tips) that they have done some amazing things for us to get us in. I think it's part of the big karma thing.


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## KaeJS

Plugging Along said:


> I would agree with this. However, *I don't think servers take those jobs to make minimum wage,* but at least there is some tip.


I don't mean to be rude, PA...

But once again - that's not my issue. There are plenty of people that would be willing to have their job for $10.25 an hour if they didn't like it.

As seen in Dmoney's accurate example above, what does a server _really_ do? The answer is that they do _JACK._

Their job is easy as all hell. They don't MAKE the food, they bring it. They don't BREW the beer, they pour it.

Whoop-dee-doo. 

You know what really pissed me off about a month ago? I was at Boston Pizza and I asked for Franks Red Hot on the side. The girl told me it was 99cents extra, but Tabasco was free. So, I said to her "Wait - Tabasco is free, but if I want Franks I need to pay a dollar?" and she says "Yeah." So, I told her I just want to substitute what I COULD be using in Tabasco for Franks, and explained that its effect on profits is nothing and that I wanted Franks for free, as I came here to buy my meal. I explained to her that I can buy a whole 500ml bottle for 4 dollars and wasn't going to pay $1 for a 30ml cup.

She told me there was "Nothing she could do."

-- my jaw dropped to the floor and the only words I could muster were "What the f. "

I was furious.


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## KaeJS

cannadian said:


> if we went to a system where there was no tipping you'd be paying MORE for your meal (what the rest of us pay usually) but with worse service.
> 
> Why would you want that?


I don't think so.

Less people would go out because it's too expensive. Demand wouldn't be there, so the employer would have to keep the prices the same. Equilibrium wouldn't be met.

It's already too expensive.

In today's economy, customers make the prices. Restaurants can't afford to raise prices. Who's going to buy a $25 dish when they can get a mcdonalds combo for $10?


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## cannadian

KaeJS said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> Less people would go out because it's too expensive. Demand wouldn't be there, so the employer would have to keep the prices the same. Equilibrium wouldn't be met.
> 
> It's already too expensive.
> 
> In today's economy, customers make the prices. Restaurants can't afford to raise prices. Who's going to buy a $25 dish when they can get a mcdonalds combo for $10?


I don't mean the total price would increase, the total price would stay the same.

Under the current system you have meal + 10-15% tip included in the "eating out" price. 

If we eliminated the tips, that 10-15% would just be included automatically into your meal price to compensate for wage increases for the servers.

So the total price stays the same in each system - it's just under the tipping system there's an incentive for servers to serve extremely well, under the other system their only incentive is working just hard enough to not get fired.

Let me be clear though, I only tip if the service is there. If I get lousy service they're not getting a tip. And that's the way it should be imo.


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## KaeJS

^ This is true of people that tip that percentage.

For people like me, though, I would think twice (as I already do) about going out to eat, as it would be more costly for me (a non-tipper).


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## Argonaut

I'm a cheap and frugal sumbitch, but I tip well. It's something I believe in. No need to over-analyze.

Only time I didn't was when I was in Europe and pinching pennies while travelling. I think a lot of their tips are baked in. But how embarrassing was it to ask for my 50 cents change back because I needed to buy a postcard?


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## the-royal-mail

Sorry Kae, but I think your comments in this thread are missing the mark. Perhaps it's your age, I am not sure, or maybe excess frugality. Again, I'm not sure, but try to be understanding that those servers have a very challenging job. Have you ever done it? Try it. Do the job for a week and then come back and talk to us. I have never done it, but I know I could not do it. I observe closely when I'm in a restaurant and I think they work hard. People are demanding, you get these large groups coming in with screaming babies, big crowds of people all wanting their custom meals at the same time, one has a food alergy, the other one is busy on their cell phone when she's trying to take our order, one isn't talking loud enough, one has a wheelchair and needs special attention, the next table over needs a water refill etc etc.

And to suggest that customers of The Keg (for example) are going to go to McDonald's instead due to the price is laughable at best. MCd's food is very harmful and I don't really feel like going to a daycare when I want to meet a friend for lunch. Eating in the better quality restaurants is a generally an enjoyable experience (look how busy they are!), and as long as the service is prompt and respectful and meets our needs, I will tip the waitress. I will not tip if the food is slow, comes cold, I have to chase them down for water refills etc.

I think many of those waitresses work hard. I don't begrudge them the money. Many of them could be retired and putting their son through college, or have some kind of financial issue that forces them to be there. These are people with feelings who work has to try and satisfy an increasingly rude and demanding customer base.


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## KaeJS

the-royal-mail said:


> Have you ever done it? Try it. Do the job for a week and then come back and talk to us. I have never done it, but I know I could not do it.
> 
> I will not tip if the food is slow, comes cold, I have to chase them down for water refills etc.
> 
> I think many of those waitresses work hard.


I have done it, so I know what it's like. I do have my SmartServe as well. It is a fairly easy job.

You won't tip if the food is slow or comes cold? How do you know that's even the servers fault? That could be the kitchen's fault. Now you could be punishing the server for something the cook's screwed up. (Another reason why tipping is a sham).

Also, they should work hard regardless. As should everyone. It's their job.


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## Four Pillars

Plugging Along said:


> After I have been on a few more cruises, I have found pre tipping to be the best thing ever!


Pre-tipping isn't a real word - it's actually called a bribe.

That said - thanks for the tip (pardon the pun). If I ever go on a cruise, I'll probably do the same thing.


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## Plugging Along

*lol*... I actually don't know what it's called, maybe paying in advance for my expected service... I actually thought that's how tipping starting... people used to tip in advance.

For a cruise at least, I do recommend it. We went with a few families, and tested it out on the service with and without 'pre tipping', and we definately got lots of extras. Also, with young kids, to me that's a must, little people are pretty demanding.


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## Toronto.gal

Argonaut said:


> I tip well. It's something I believe in. No need to over-analyze.


Ditto!

Buffets for KaeJS; problem solved. 
http://www.itipping.com/tip-guide-restaurant.htm

Pre-tipping is definitely a bribe, lol.


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## m3s

Tipping makes some people feel good because you are either unconsciously above them or pretending to be, because you are in control and they are jumping for your petty change. Imagine someone mistakes you for a bell boy or beggar or something and tips you? Say a foreigner tips an RCMP officer some spare change to "fetch his luggage"..... Demeaning!! Most people would be embarrassed or above looking desperate or smiling/flirting/showing skin for tips, yet it's proven pan handlers/good lookers can make better money than a steady salary... 

I have no problem with tipping above and beyond the real wages, but including the real wage in the price works perfectly fine in both cheaper and expensive places compared to NA. Actually people travel to those countries just for the food..... how about NA restaurants just focus on making better food instead? People will pay for good food


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## Jericho

I think the bottom line is - tipping should be acceptable - ONLY if the person is comfortable doing it. Tipping should NOT be expected, regardless of the job.

Waitresses work hard, so what? So do Wal-Mart cashiers... who makes more and who doesn't receive a tip?

I think tips should be reserved for outstanding service - going above and beyond what is required to make you feel like a valued customer - and even then it shouldn't be 'required'. You want a service, you pay for the service, the transaction has been complete.

I get treated poorly in restaurants sometimes because I don't tip. I take my service elsewhere to where I'm made to feel welcome. I pay for the product they provide to me and I'm on my merry way. I probably tip every 1 in 12-15 interactions on average.

It really boils my blood to hear people ***** and whine about how they deserve money because they work hard. Many others work hard and receive less than waiters/waitresses. You should work hard at your job. You should take pride in what you do. Just because I'm successful in my career choice doesn't mean I should have to pay more because you aren't in yours.

Tipping should be an optional, discretionary action at best.


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## Square Root

Mode. Your hypothesis as to why some people feel good tipping seems off the mark to me. I felt good because the waiter really was happy with the tip and I was happy with the service. He worked hard for iT and I was glad to give it. He didn't seemed "demeaned" to me and I certainly wasn't on some power trip as you suggest. It surprises me the excuses people come up with not to tip.


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## m3s

haha I do tip, always.

No need for offence, but you missed my point that giving change to someone if you accidentally thought they were looking for tip (like mistaking a lawyer for a waiter or something) would be demeaning. It's unconscious. I also feel good tipping people extra in Morocco, but I am subconsciously above them. If I was honestly-altruistically equal to them, I would devote my life to stopping world hunger or something, not tipping a few extra bucks to tax evasion waiters


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## hystat

slacker said:


> Is it wrong to tip the waitress base on how much cleavage she shows?
> 
> On the opposite: is it wrong to give an ugly waitress a bad tip?


maybe that is exactly the point we all missed....

maybe tipping survives because it's the last frontier for racism, sexism and all discrimination in general

Anyone can tip by bra size or skin colour, and no one can do a darn thing about it.


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## andrewf

I always feel a bit embarrassed when I tip someone, especially when they are much older than me. To me, tipping is kind of patronizing. A way of putting someone in their place, like tossing coppers to the paupers in the gutter as you ride by in your carriage.

Of course, I go along with the social norm. I do wish we had a culture where good service was just expected and employers paid their staff appropriately.


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## joncnca

Four Pillars said:


> Pre-tipping isn't a real word - it's actually called a bribe.


Hahah, astute distinction. 

How does this even work practically? Do you tip the service staff before the meal or before you even get the keys to your room in anticipation of good service during your stay? Do you start off with a big tip after the first meal and expect better service for the rest of your cruise...won't they wonder why you're not matching your generous tip on subsequent days? I'm not being sarcastic, where is the opportunity to do such a thing?

I'm always confused down in the US. I think EVERYONE expects a tip there, I literally walk around with a stack of small bills all day long in anticipation of the next person to tip. I stepped out of a restaurant in New York last year, and the door man asked me if I needed a cab. He whistled at a nearby taxi and opened the door for me, and I shook his hand and slipped him a dollar. Literally 3 seconds passed. On the one hand, I felt compelled because I think everyone expects a tip for everything in the US. But on the other hand, I didn't even know if $1 was a good tip or a bad tip...plus, I wish I could make $1 for 3 seconds of work, ahha. If I were in Canada, I'd probably have thought that an emphatic "thank you" was enough gratuity under the circumstances.

This past winter I went to Florida. Again, tipping totally confuses me down there. I had checked a suitcase into the hotel's luggage storage facility for a few hours before leaving for the airport. It wasn't a heavy or oversized suitcase, maybe 20 pounds. Anyway, when I went to pick up the suitcase, the guy walked 10 steps into the back (i saw him) lifted my suitcase off of the shelf and wheeled it over to me and I gave him $2 bucks. I get conflicted because on the one hand, $2 seems so paltry and almost insulting (as if given to a panhandler), but at the same time..does this seem like a lot to be tipping for 5 seconds of service? I tipped a waitress for dinner, a little more than the recommended 18%, came out to be about $10. By comparison, does it seem like the waitress is undertipped compared to the bell boy...or am I just tipping all wrong, haha. Actually, i'm sure it's me...i honestly don't know how it works down in the US.

I know the discussion is about tipping in Canada. I think food service at a dine-in restaurant is hard work, and usually tip around tax. But i agree that tipping should be based on the quality of service. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. Tipping at a restaurant is pretty unfair for people with other jobs.

Someone made the point above about how the person at Wal-Mart also works hard and deals with a lot of BS too, but they do not get tipped. This is pretty unfair, and is thus a strike against tipping, because the people who get hired for 'tipped' positions in food service (for example) tend to be attractive. This is totally discriminatory for a person working at Walmart, who would probably be unable to get a job as a food server. In this way, tipping is very unfair and I'd say this is a reason against tipping.

More in line with the OP's original topic, I do want to put out there that I'm actually OFFENDED when the Debit/Credit machine at a fast food establishment is set (yes, i'm sure this is a setting that can be toggled by the owner) asks for a tip. There's a Subway restaurant near my office, and recently a new owner took over, and now every time I pay, it asks me for a tip.

This is outrageous, tipping for fast food service = fail.


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## mind_business

We're off to Cuba next week. Apparently they recommend we tip the resort staff with dollar store stuff (nail polish, shampoos, etc). I'm going to feel incredibly awkward doing that. I much prefer tipping with cash.

My stance on tipping elsewhere ... do it if you feel like you should. I will tip for good service 20-30%, expected or average service 10-15%, lousy service gets a big fat 0%.

Good service to me is where your drinks are refilled without ever knowing they were there to refill them, willing to offer up a suggestions for what's good on a menu when asked (most don't know because they haven't tried them), laughs at my jokes ... most fail at this ... hmmm, and brings the bill before I have to hunt them down out of frustration. There's more, but I might be seen as being a bit picky


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## peterk

I worked on the road down in the US a while back, visiting a good ~40 restaurants, and noticed a distinct notch up in the quality of service in the US compared to Canada.

It seemed that a good majority of the waiters/waitresses there REALLY worked hard. They would be extremely social, very quick to apologize if something went wrong, and 4-5 times out of the 40 I was given a free side, wings, or upgrade seemingly "under the table" from the restaurant manager's eyes.

All too often in Canada I'm treated with disinterest, the servers don't care if you have to wait 20 minutes for a refill or not, and they always make sure to inform you that ordering that extra side of mayo, salsa, or whatever will cost another $0.50.

I wonder if it's a difference in employment and socioeconomic expectation that drive this difference, or a difference in tipping expectations between the the countries.


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## Plugging Along

joncnca said:


> Hahah, astute distinction.
> 
> How does this even work practically? Do you tip the service staff before the meal or before you even get the keys to your room in anticipation of good service during your stay? Do you start off with a big tip after the first meal and expect better service for the rest of your cruise...won't they wonder why you're not matching your generous tip on subsequent days? I'm not being sarcastic, where is the opportunity to do such a thing?


Usually when you get to your room, there is a name of who your the head cabin steward is for your section. As soon as we get there (often the luggage isn't even there yet), we call the person on the housekeeping line, and ask for the person in charge of our section. When he arrives, we introduce ourselves (and kids) to him, and just thank him in advance for all the hard work he will be doing for us for the rest of the week, and give him the tip. We do usually about $100 for our for the week (if there are other families travelling with us, and we're be, plus he will get whatever is recommended from cruise line at the end, and if it's really good service more. 


For the meals, since on the cruise it's all inclusive (you tip at the end, never leave money on the table), we did the same thing, and just pulled our waiter (which is not the head waiter nor the assistant), just told her the same thing.



joncnca said:


> Good service to me is where your drinks are refilled without ever knowing they were there to refill them, willing to offer up a suggestions for what's good on a menu when asked (most don't know because they haven't tried them), laughs at my jokes ... most fail at this ... hmmm, and brings the bill before I have to hunt them down out of frustration. There's more, but I might be seen as being a bit picky


I was going to say that I've heard most of those similar criteria on a good date.


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## Plugging Along

mind_business said:


> We're off to Cuba next week. Apparently they recommend we tip the resort staff with dollar store stuff (nail polish, shampoos, etc). I'm going to feel incredibly awkward doing that. I much prefer tipping with cash.


We used to always do both. In many of these resorts, the surround towns where they workers a from are incredibly poor. Toiletries, make up, etc. and things we take for granted are really hard to come by and expensive. We always saved up the samples I would get in the mail, the toothbrushes, floss, toothpaste from the dentist, hotel toiletries, and bring them on our trips. We gave some to the staff in little 'loot' bags, and often it into town if we go for excursions. We also go buy school supplies (books, crayons, pencils, stickers, toys) to give to the local children, or staff. I never really considered these items as tips, more as just gifts because I probably wouldn't use a lot of these items. 

We also left a little money each day as the actual tip.


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## m3s

andrewf said:


> I always feel a bit embarrassed when I tip someone, especially when they are much older than me. To me, tipping is kind of patronizing. A way of putting someone in their place, like tossing coppers to the paupers in the gutter as you ride by in your carriage.
> 
> Of course, I go along with the social norm. I do wish we had a culture where good service was just expected and employers paid their staff appropriately.


+1 exactly

Sometimes I admit I feel good tipping, but sometimes I also feel embarrassed for the same reason. So why did I feel good tipping? Because they kissed my feet for it

If it was an altruistic donation, I would have made it anonymously... not for *** kissing, cleavage, fake smiles and extra special treatment.


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## donald

Maybe im wierd but i don't view tipping @ all like most people.In my mind its just a fixed cost regardless of the outcome,if i headed out to a restaurant i take in the whole atmosphere and that includes the server.Sometimes i will start conversations with the sever and if it crosses over to non inpersonable i will ask what they are doing over the weekend,maybe i just got out of a movie with who im with ect and we will have a quick chat about that,anyways natural dialogue is created and each time they comeback the server and i get more comfortable(like were friends)maybe they will even start telling me about the ''table over there ie;the high maintance table"lol

I don't get it....i totally agree with plugging along....if i was on a crusie i would most likely do something very similar.

@ the end of the day im going about mine and they(server,whoever)are going about there's- we just happen to be in the same place-and oddly enough a yr down the road you bump into these people again in a different setting....Hi hows it going? ect ect.


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## Four Pillars

joncnca said:


> More in line with the OP's original topic, I do want to put out there that I'm actually OFFENDED when the Debit/Credit machine at a fast food establishment is set (yes, i'm sure this is a setting that can be toggled by the owner) asks for a tip. There's a Subway restaurant near my office, and recently a new owner took over, and now *every time I pay, it asks me for a tip.*This is outrageous, tipping for fast food service = fail.


I wonder if you can enter a negative tip amount in that situation?


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## davext

My wife and I frequent this viet Pho restaurant at least once a month and the last time we went in December, the server brought out my wife's scarf. She had remembered to give it to her after about a month of not being at the restaurant and my wife had been looking all over the place for it. That is above and beyond the call of duty, but she told us it was her responsibility and that it was her Christmas present to my wife. 

My wife wanted to give her a big tip but she wanted to make sure it went to her instead of the restaurant. I told her not to do it, because it was tacky and the server would not take it, it was $20 which is almost as much as the bill. I felt that the waitress felt good and warm inside for doing a good deed and for her to take the money, it would not be the same. Instead, we should probably come back with a thank you card and a gift certificate. She's not like a Mexican peasant doing you us favour as a tourists so I was strongly against it. Needless to say, my wife tried to tip her anyway and she would not accept it the money. 

Now we are definitely going to be loyal to this restaurant and frequent it more often when we have time and we told the owner how great his staff were.


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## Plugging Along

I have decided that tipping in general could be a bribe

bribe (brb)
n.
1. Something, such as money or a favor, offered or given to a person in a position of trust to influence that person's views or conduct.
2. Something serving to influence or persuade.


The difference in pre-tipping is that it is more likely a more effective way to get the results I am looking for.  See, I'm just result orientated.


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## Argonaut

I have to be honest, I groan whenever I get a guy waiter. It happens so often that I point out to people I'm with that I'm restaurant-cursed. Why oh why is the pretty girl serving the table over there?


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## the-royal-mail

LOL! I've had bad luck with male waiters. Some have been really sharp though, I remember a few top notch guys through the years, I usually told them I was impressed by their service and left extra tip.

If you go to a lunch buffet and the owner/mgr serves you, everything is great, he refills the water puntually etc, should you leave a tip? I'm never sure with buffets and when it's not a 20-something student serving me.


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## Toronto.gal

Argonaut said:


> Why oh why is the pretty girl serving the table over there?


Time to change restaurants then. Go here. 

http://www.hooters.ca/calsplash.htm

Planning an exotic trip? Then check out the 'by region' section and be informed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_(gratuity)


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## Argonaut

No Hooters here. Earls is pretty nice for that, especially the one in Vancouver. But of course I got the only dude there last time.


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## m3s

Toronto.gal said:


> Planning an exotic trip? Then check out the 'by region' section and be informed!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_(gratuity)


Man I love wikipedia

Notice that most countries tip is not expected or customary, and actually offensive in Japan. Where tip is expected is in poor countries, where everything is dirt cheap anyways. I find that any poorer-type country I visit they may not tip among themselves, but if they view you as a foreigner they have come to expect NA type tip. This actually works in our favour as you may notice how differently they treat a NA tourist vs foreigners who don't tip (so I do like tips in that regard)



the-royal-mail said:


> If you go to a lunch buffet and the owner/mgr serves you, everything is great, he refills the water puntually etc, should you leave a tip? I'm never sure with buffets and when it's not a 20-something student serving me.


From the wiki ref Canada



> Traditionally, owners of businesses and buffet staff are not tipped.


This is interesting



> In Quebec, the provincial government automatically taxes servers 8% of their sales whether a gratuity was received or not. In other provinces, however, many workers have been known to report no income from tips at all or, perhaps more commonly, to "lowball" the figure. In response, the CRA has said that it will closely check the tax returns of individuals who would reasonably be expected to be receiving tips to ensure that the tips are reported realistically.


I wasn't aware of that, and it would suck in Quebec to pay taxes on all the meals of non-tippers. QRA is ruthless.. I'm still trying to escape its jaws


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## peterk

I think that Quebec style system is a great idea! 8%. not so greedy that you will be screwing any of the servers over with extra income tax, but still enough to give them the idea "If I don't atleast do a reasonable job as a waitress/waiter I'm actually going to LOSE money"

tough but fair, I'd say..


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## v_tofu

Have to agree with most that I hate tipping. Especially at places like Earls where their food price inflated to ridiculousnesslyous. Why does expensive food = higher tip?

Whats weird is I tip almost tip ~25% at low key home diner type places. 8 dollars after tax for a great home cooked meal + drink + super fast service and i'll leave a twoonie without a thought.

Earls like resturants I sit there for 15 min before getting served, wait 1/2 hr for my food, see my waitress once and asks if everything is good?, give her the credit card, wait another 15 min. And that requires a 20% tip? for looking pretty and enjoying the atmosphere? No thanks.


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## mind_business

Plugging Along said:


> We used to always do both. In many of these resorts, the surround towns where they workers a from are incredibly poor. Toiletries, make up, etc. and things we take for granted are really hard to come by and expensive. We always saved up the samples I would get in the mail, the toothbrushes, floss, toothpaste from the dentist, hotel toiletries, and bring them on our trips. We gave some to the staff in little 'loot' bags, and often it into town if we go for excursions. We also go buy school supplies (books, crayons, pencils, stickers, toys) to give to the local children, or staff. I never really considered these items as tips, more as just gifts because I probably wouldn't use a lot of these items.
> 
> We also left a little money each day as the actual tip.


Well we took your advice and picked up some stuff from the dollar store to bring. Notepads, pencils, stickers, small bottles of shampoo, and jewelry. I'm also bringing some ball caps that I never wear, but are in new condition.

Thanks for the advice PA.


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## uptoolate

My mom went to Havana for 2 weeks last year and took all kinds of new school supplies and tons of clothes from the thrift store where she works. She also took OTC drugs like acetominophen and ibruprofen. She said that they were very well received.


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## buaya

http://www.toronto.com/article/710035?bn=1

Now, this is getting out of hand, especially when you compare to the US where their servers are paid $2/hr unlike here in Canada.
I have never eaten at those restaurants quoted and I guess I never will. 
I always leave a tip of between 13-15%. It is just something I do, but to make it mandatory at 20% seems to be too much


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## KaeJS

buaya said:


> http://www.toronto.com/article/710035?bn=1


^ Know what I have to say to that?

*FTS*

...and I'm not talking about Fortis.


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## jamesbe

Wow I hint that would p me off.

20% seems like a lot to me. After 13% tax, that's 33% of the bill!


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## ddkay

These guys are really pushing the envelope, why not ask for 90% gratuity? Come on, I'm not going to pay 20%, in fact if I'm paying out of my own pocket I probably won't tip at all just for asking... this is offensive

"Waiters don’t get paid too much,” said Tom Earl, co-owner of The Westerly." - so increase your menu prices and pay them more! This isn't Mcdonalds, people go out and expect to pay for high menu prices, the menu's on your front window - these are visible costs, but people aren't going to expect to pay high menu prices and exorbitant gratuity fees... this guy shouldn't be in the restaurant business...


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## KaeJS

ddkay said:


> "Waiters don’t get paid too much,” said Tom Earl, co-owner of The Westerly."


And people like myself do? 

What a joke of a comment that was, Mr. Tom Earl.

Isn't the average wage in Canada $47k?

_"Average annual income in Canada is around 47,481 CAD (46,550 USD), according to 2011/2012 salary survey."_

I make less than $36k. Are you telling me the owner of the restaurant makes less than me? If not, the owner needs to cover the difference in wages.

This is what is so ***-backwards about the whole thing.


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## ddkay

well whatever, I'm going to stick with my 12-15 and 0 for people that are pushy. You gotta be careful now days, some restaurants have gratuity charges built in and you can't opt out because there's a tiny sign at the front that you're expected to pay that amount the moment you walk in! This is especially common at touristy restaurants. For example, the Marche that re-opened at Brookfield place 2 years ago. If you drop in for breakfast a $4.49 parfait will cost that plus 13% tax and 12% gratuity. For a self serve restaurant this is bs. Would not advise anyone eating there if they can avoid it, the original was way better.


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## HaroldCrump

ddkay said:


> For example, the Marche that re-opened at Brookfield place 2 years ago. If you drop in for breakfast a $4.49 parfait will cost that plus 13% tax and 12% gratuity.


That is to pay for the loud music blaring from their speakers since 7:00 in the morning.
Just when the peak hydro rates kick in.
Somebody's gotta pay for the music.


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## uptoolate

I heard about this default setting of 20% as the tip. Obviously you can change the tip to whatever you want on the terminal but I does seem just a wee bit pushy. Of course we are talking Toronto here. It would be interesting to see how they actually make out given that some people will be so annoyed as to leave no tip or make a point by reducing their tip.


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## DanFo

20% seems a bit much but it's just something they're hinting for. I'm guessing they hook many people into it since it's just the push of a button on the debit machine... I'd never go to a place that automaically charged that or to places that have cover charges ..They can ask all they want but to get 20% from me the service would have to be pretty darn good. I more often than not pay with cash in restaurants anyway and would never see this request on their machine.


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## HaroldCrump

Issue received media attention:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...start-tacking-automatic-20-per-213517141.html


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## the-royal-mail

from the above article: 

"Some places take the compulsory tip practice very seriously. An American couple was arrested a few years ago for refusing to pay the automatic gratuity tacked onto their bill after getting poor service. Leslie Pope and John Wagner were hauled away by police and charged with theft for not paying the mandatory 18 per cent gratuity totaling $16 after eating at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, with six friends."

Wow that's scary. Cops will arrest you for not paying this?


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## Plugging Along

There has actually been a few cases that came through the court systems. Last year in NY state, there was one that went to the Courts. The judge ruled that gratuities are not mandatory, and therefore not required. I can't find the case for it.

That being said, police are still obligated to press charges if it was posted, I can't remember the exact details.


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## canadianbanks

I tip in restaurants/pubs and for food delivery, but thta's about it.


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## canadian_investor

the-royal-mail said:


> "Some places take the compulsory tip practice very seriously. An American couple was arrested a few years ago for refusing to pay the automatic gratuity tacked onto their bill
> ...


this story just goes to prove what i said in my earlier message.
tipping is an ugly practice in this industry to hide the true cost of food.
servers are underpaid in basic wages so that they can earn much more in tips.
the tips are shared by everyone involved.
the fact that more and more food joints (from low end to high end) are adding this to the check and force you to pay 20% regardless of service proves that more and more customers are *not *willing to pay 20% every time because _customers no longer believe the service is worth 20% of the bill_.

tips are the hidden cost of eating out.
it is the "connection fee" from the telecom world.
if you wanna eat out be prepared to pay 20% more.
be prepared to know that the server probably makes more money than you on an hourly basis.

or just boycott this malpractice as i do. stay home, cook your food, and enjoy your own self service.
who needs this lardy oil laden, MSG laden, PCB laden goop.
the thought of eating out makes me nauseous.


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## Saniokca

Couldn't agree more with you canadian_investor


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## cityandcolor

*Tipping etiquette*

Let me first say that I have personally been on both sides of the spectrum. I have worked in places where the only thing to look forward to at the end of the day was calculating how much you made that night and saving it for something you really want. At the same time I am AWFUL and down right TERRIBLE at tipping when I am at a bar or restaurant. I never know what the appropriate amount is that I should tip. With this in mind, I really hate the idea of having to evaluate a service in less than 2 sec and calculate that in dollar amount.


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## indexxx

Ah, but if your mixologist nails the balance between the Angostura, Orange, and Whiskey-Barrel bitters, the fresh double citrus twist, Demerarra sugar, and attains the correct Japanese stirring dilution in your Old Fashioned, it's worth a $5.00 tip. (Guess what I do for a living...)


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## andrewf

But does it make sense for a bartender to make $100/h +?


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## indexxx

andrewf said:


> But does it make sense for a bartender to make $100/h +?


Why not? If one is talented in their field, and they are top producers, why shouldn't they be compensated accordingly? If I can perfectly nail every obscure cocktail or handcraft something incredible for you and your friends, thereby increasing your evening's enjoyment, and do that for every group in the bar, that's worth something. If I can consistently outsell other bartenders and pour $1,000/hour in drinks, I should profit as well. Besides, nobody in this industry makes $100/ hour, unless you're in Vegas. More like minimum wage plus $15-35/hr in tips, and in nightclubs $40-60, (but that's only for a few hour peak period)- out of which we have to tip the support staff and kitchen, plus save a percentage for taxes (yes, I claim my earnings). 

But here's what most people don't realize:
- a bartender is legally liable for your safety and can be sued for overservice if you injure yourself or others or damage property
- Bartenders control liquor and cash, which is a position of responsibility
- Bartenders take a lot of abuse from patrons- part of our tips are a compensation for dealing with people under the influence
- It is incredibly difficult to be a great bartender- and most are just monkeys pulling beer. The skillset is like nothing else; we multitask faster than almost any other profession and do it in full view while entertaining people. The breadth of knowledge needed to be a great mixologist takes years to accumulate; all the different mixing, pouring, and straining techniques, hundreds of recipes committed to memory, obscure ingredients, flavour profiles of every spirit, liqueur, herb, berry, nut, bitters, juice, extract, and spice and how to balance them correctly while never making a mistake, so that every drink is perfect even with 6-9 ingredients while there are 300 people in the room pounding cocktails... all the messy prep to squeeze juice by hand, on our feet for ten hours bent over an icewell, the attention to detail needed- we earn every penny. If there were no tips, then meals and beverages in restaurants would cost at least twice as much to pay the staff accordingly. I wouldn't mind making $18-22/hr in wages like in Australia- but you'd be paying $14.00 for your Mojito.

Having said that, you'll get the exact same level of attention from me on my bar whether you tip well or not.


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## m3s

indexxx, general society doesn't realize such finer details about many many occupations, especially ones nobody sees! The patrons are tipping because of a social custom and no matter how you slice it, it's a haphazard under-the-table way of determining your earnings. Instead of managers setting prices and distributing funds on paper, 1000 patrons randomly decide how much to tip under social pressure. In the end I'm sure tipping works out better for the bartender, better for those who aren't ashamed to tip little to nothing, and worse for society as far as taxes go overall. It doesn't matter if you pay your taxes, the opportunity is there for many..



indexxx said:


> Ah, but if your mixologist nails the balance between the Angostura, Orange, and Whiskey-Barrel bitters, the fresh double citrus twist, Demerarra sugar, and attains the correct Japanese stirring dilution in your Old Fashioned, it's worth a $5.00 tip. (Guess what I do for a living...)


Why not tack extra on to the complicated drinks like in Aus? A Mojito is a hard drink to make (possibly?), so why should I subsidize fancy drinks when all I ever want is a good single malt without ice, and why should I tip $3 for you to pour a Scotch with no mix (unless you pour extra?) Which opens up another can of worms on tipping, because bartenders usually give drinks to good tippers. Sounds like the Aus system gets rid of tips but maintains incentive to sell? And you can all tip me what it's worth to you if you've flown on a plane and were happy no fighter jet flew into you or shot you down.


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## andrewf

Indexxx, I was extrapolating from your point that it is reasonable to tip a bartender $5/cocktail. If they can produce 20 drinks an hour (3 minutes per drink), they would be earning $100 per hour.

I'm not saying that bartenders should be paid minimum wage. I'm saying that $100/hr is more than almost anyone makes. It's more than what most lawyers and doctors make, especially after their overhead. I'm sure there is a lot of skill and craft involved in being a good bartender. But why should anyone bother with the 10 years it takes to become a doctor if they can be better compensated working as a bartender with far less training and stress?


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## andrewf

> I wouldn't mind making $18-22/hr in wages like in Australia- but you'd be paying $14.00 for your Mojito.


The point is that you pay it either way, and I prefer transparency. I'd rather staff were paid accordingly. I suspect a lot of workers in the food service industry are treated rather poorly because the manager can require them to be on hand at less than minimum wage regardless of how many patrons are present to pay tips.


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## Dmoney

mode3sour said:


> And you can all tip me what it's worth to you if you've flown on a plane and were happy no fighter jet flew into you or shot you down.


But that's your job... Oh, wait... 
By bartender/server logic, we should all be getting tips then. I work long hours sitting down, which can be bad for my back. I work really really hard I swear. Someone should tip me every time I write a report.

http://docksidegroup.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Waterfront-Wine-List-WEBSITE1.pdf 

A menu in Sydney Australia for a waterfront dining establishment. Have to say, the restaurant looks really classy. Beers are from $7.50 - $9. Went to The Keg in Toronto last night and my beer was $8.25. Far cry from the "double" that indexxx was calling for. Oh, and there's *NO TAXES*.

Clearly the model works without tipping.

http://kijapanese.com/menus/cocktails.html

Toronto restaurant. Also classy. Cocktails in the $15 range, beers in the $5-8 range. Add in tax and tip and you're paying way more than in Australia.

Dublin Ireland:
http://www.green19.ie/drinks.html
4.5 Euros for a beer (under $6.5)
9 Euros for a cocktail (under $15)
No tips no tax

The list of countries with cheaper dining all included is extensive, so clearly it can be done. Low wages for servers/bartenders just line the owners pockets, since clearly the food isn't any cheaper than elsewhere.

We all feel like we're worth what we get paid or more. It's very rare that someone will say "oh you're paying me way to much, please, pay me less I don't deserve it". Fact is, people would be willing to serve for $15-20/hr without tips, or would be forced to get other jobs. It all lies in the customer's hands, so if you don't like it, either don't go out to eat, or don't tip when you do. 

Unfortunately it's a social custom that we tip here, generally irrespective of service.


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## realist

Dmoney said:


> A menu in Sydney Australia for a waterfront dining establishment. Have to say, the restaurant looks really classy. Beers are from $7.50 - $9. Went to The Keg in Toronto last night and my beer was $8.25. Far cry from the "double" that indexxx was calling for. Oh, and there's *NO TAXES*.


The taxes have a lot more to do with the price of a beer at the Keg than the staff costs or tipping. Canada has some of the highest alcohol taxes in the world after Scandinavia, but that is a thread unto itself!


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## bayview

Im also trying to adjust to the tipping culture here. Personally i prefer not to tip since there's already a hefty 13% hst but i comply and respect it is part of Canadian DNA. Over in Asia one can dine in 6 stars restaurants or an ordinary cafe and tips are not expected. For eg in Japan that commands the most michelin starred restaurants in the world including the highest 3 stars you are served like royalty no matter who you are and like one forumer has highlighted earlier it maybe regarded as offensive to tip. However, most western visitors to asia like to tip occassionally I think partly because most Asian currencies are much weaker so tipping generously for good service doesnt add a signicant dent on the tab. Of course they also tipped for good service.


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## indexxx

mode3sour said:


> indexxx, general society doesn't realize such finer details about many many occupations, especially ones nobody sees! The patrons are tipping because of a social custom and no matter how you slice it, it's a haphazard under-the-table way of determining your earnings. Instead of managers setting prices and distributing funds on paper, 1000 patrons randomly decide how much to tip under social pressure. In the end I'm sure tipping works out better for the bartender, better for those who aren't ashamed to tip little to nothing, and worse for society as far as taxes go overall. It doesn't matter if you pay your taxes, the opportunity is there for many..
> 
> 
> 
> Why not tack extra on to the complicated drinks like in Aus? A Mojito is a hard drink to make (possibly?), so why should I subsidize fancy drinks when all I ever want is a good single malt without ice, and why should I tip $3 for you to pour a Scotch with no mix (unless you pour extra?) Which opens up another can of worms on tipping, because bartenders usually give drinks to good tippers. Sounds like the Aus system gets rid of tips but maintains incentive to sell? And you can all tip me what it's worth to you if you've flown on a plane and were happy no fighter jet flew into you or shot you down.





andrewf said:


> The point is that you pay it either way, and I prefer transparency. I'd rather staff were paid accordingly. I suspect a lot of workers in the food service industry are treated rather poorly because the manager can require them to be on hand at less than minimum wage regardless of how many patrons are present to pay tips.


Yes, we are constantly abused by employers (the owner where I work demands a portion of our nightly tips to buy supplies for the bar- illegal, but if you confront it or file a complaint, you're fired and blackballed in the industry. Does this happen in other's jobs? I imagine you are not being charged for your own jet fuel. And we are legally paid below minimum wage because we earn tips, thereby decreasing my tax input, EI payment, and CPP on every paycheque. And tips, even though we claim them, are not considered stable income for the purposes of loans, mortgages, etc. But I still have to pay tax on that income.

Before this all gets out of hand, suffice it to say that professions involving one-to-one service where one builds their own business of clientele through excellent personal service and are not compensated via corporate/public structure are customarily tipped. Lawyers, doctors, pilots, etc earn a great living. I facilitate (hopefully) amazing and unique cocktail and social experiences for those lawyers and pilots and inspire and educate them to beverage lore and rare cocktails if they are interested- (among other things- a good barman knows a little about everything.)

Those $5 tips/drink I mentioned come around once or twice a night. I never expect them, but it shows appreciation for my craft and my care in your entertainment. I'll never get rich bartending, except humanly. And through managing my investments...

Cheers!

ps- for the record, I never drink


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## Saniokca

indexxx said:


> Yes, we are constantly abused by employers (the owner where I work demands a portion of our nightly tips to buy supplies for the bar- illegal, but if you confront it or file a complaint, you're fired and blackballed in the industry. Does this happen in other's jobs?


umm not exactly, but yeah I work crazy hours (and I do mean crazy) in consulting and could call it abuse (my field is quite small so "blacklisting" does exist). Yeah income is pretty good but I also spent 4 years of my life to get it - did you? I can't believe you bring up lawyers and doctors - you know how long/hard it is to become one? And how much you work after you get it? How long does it take to become a waiter/bartender? And really, how hard can it be to memorize 200-300 different drinks?

Just because you get abused in your industry does not mean I should be supplementing your income...



indexxx said:


> And we are legally paid below minimum wage because we earn tips, thereby decreasing my tax input, EI payment, and CPP on every paycheque.


You could work at Walmart for minimum if CPP and EI is so important, they pay minimum.



indexxx said:


> I facilitate (hopefully) amazing and unique cocktail and social experiences for those lawyers and pilots and inspire and educate them to beverage lore and rare cocktails if they are interested


And I teach them about pension plans (well soon enough). Why is yours more special?


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## m3s

I have nothing against what bartenders do and didn't say anything against them or what they get paid. Only against the tipping practice. If bartenders are also abused, then maybe it would be better for them as well as the other servers to abolish the practice and get paid legitimately on paper? I don't have to pay my own work expenses because the money is managed by people who have the full picture, and people don't pay me directly under the table. That would be considered fraud or bribery in any other industry


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## Zeeshan Hamid

Here's a major flaw in the tipping culture :-

I go to a regular_restaurant and get a $12 meal. The server works really hard. I ask for a specific drink and the server gets it right. Then I ask for a special dessert with special instructions, and the server gets it perfectly. I am extremely impressed. The bill is $24. I leave a generous 25% tip that comes up to $6.

I go to a special_restaurant for a special occassion. I order a $35 wine and a $45 sashimini combo. Desserts there are $9.99, but I hear they're to die for so I order one. The bill comes up to $102 including HST. The service was just blah. In fact, I am a little disappointed. It was still adequate, so I leave a not-very-generous 10% tip. It comes up to $10. 

What's wrong with this picture? The server who works super hard and really impresses me gets $6 but the one who did an ok job gets $10!

If anything then tips should be in fixed dollars. It's not like a server works that much more pouring a $35 glass of wine compared to a $2.99 fountain drink.


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## kcowan

I always do both. I calculate the % tip and then I focus on the dollar amount. In you case, I increase the tip in the first case to what I consider more than fair, e.g. $10.

Tipping is not perfect but it is the way our world works. And the next time I go to the first place, the service will be amazing!


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## kcowan

BTW I also tip the hotel staff on a nightly basis and the cruise ship staff on a daily basis. That improves our experience much more than the tip is worth to us.


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## m3s

By the way our world works you mean North America?


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## bayview

How do we tip movers say a driver with 4-5 guys from customs to condo. Standard household stuff; no piano, no cooker, no fridge? Tks.o


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## indexxx

Some of this discussion is getting a mite nasty; I think I'll bow out...


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