# Challenges with the Canadian Healthcare system.



## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I note that the border crossing topic has crossed into a discussion about the problems with theCanadian Healthcare System. In my case I am looking at a 36 month wait for a knee replacement. I did a fair bit of research on certain Mexican clinics and the Surgery Center of Oklahoma. I have embarked on obtaining my knee replacement in Mexico. It will involve an orthopaedic surgeon trained in Germany and Texas with years of experience and using the latest technology and procedures. The knee replacement device is a Zimmer and it is the world's leader in knee replacement devices. The total cost will be 12.5 k i US dollars and includes all medications, up to 7 days of hospital care and full physical therapy for after surgery recovery. Three years of further knee deterioration and pain was not an option for me. The Oklahoma centre will do the surgery for 16k . The issue there is the high cost of hospital care if it was required. The wait times for elective surgery and other procedures is becoming totally unacceptable. Other countries with single payer system have much shorter wait times. May-be its time for some shakeups with the Canadian model?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

I can't wait for gibor to blast away here.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

zinfit said:


> I note that the border crossing topic has crossed into a discussion about the problems with theCanadian Healthcare System. In my case I am looking at a 36 month wait for a knee replacement. I did a fair bit of research on certain Mexican clinics and the Surgery Center of Oklahoma. I have embarked on obtaining my knee replacement in Mexico. It will involve an orthopaedic surgeon trained in Germany and Texas with years of experience and using the latest technology and procedures. The knee replacement device is a Zimmer and it is the world's leader in knee replacement devices. The total cost will be 12.5 k i US dollars and includes all medications, up to 7 days of hospital care and full physical therapy for after surgery recovery. Three years of further knee deterioration and pain was not an option for me. The Oklahoma centre will do the surgery for 16k . The issue there is the high cost of hospital care if it was required. The wait times for elective surgery and other procedures is becoming totally unacceptable. Other countries with single payer system have much shorter wait times. May-be its time for some shakeups with the Canadian model?


You might PM kcowan for additional info. I believe he or his spouse had a knee or hip done in Mexico last year. As far as it recall it was positive.

Yes elective stuff is a big problem . My observation from friends and relatives is that the more urgent care is good. cancer treatment, heart surgeries etc. My cousin had a hip done a couple of years back and I think he waited about 1 year . He actually delayed the original date so as not to interfere with his summer.

A US friend of mine, a retired dentist, broke his knee cap in Mexico (Cabo) had it fixed, spent several days in hospital and paid 6k. He was very positive.

You might also get quotes from the private clinics in Vancouver. I've had friends use them. I'm sure other major Canadian cities have them as well.


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

I have been having back problems. Went to Chiro, but he didn't do much. 
- gave me some advice on exercise and pain killers. - No manipulation. 
Pain continued, so I saw my doctor. 
- She sent me to get an X-Ray. It showed nothing much. Said to take 8hr Tylenol before going to bed.

I have been having routine CT scans for possible cancer (luckily no metastasis discovered) every 6 months. I found a service called PocketHealth. This allows you to get the results of scans and other tests fast - sometimes before the doctor does! 

CT scans (and MRIs) show a lot more than possible cancer migration. I found that each scan I have had, one as far back as 2019 identified severe degenerative disc disease along with impingement of spinal cord. Doctor had these reports, but sent me for an X-Ray? Maybe she hadn't read the scan reports. I sent her the relative excerpt but haven't heard back  

Not sure what they could do about it anyway, but it would be good to have a referral to a specialist. It might take some to get an appointment!


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

A list of some of the things we that need to be done to fix our health care.

Stop locking down the healthy.

The Bogus PCR tests need to be scraped

Break away from Bill Gates, monopoly on world health, WHO,CDC

Let doctors speak up who expose the Con job without taking away their license

Tell people the truth that the experimental gene kill shot is more dangerous then the man made virus

Hold trials for crimes against humanity for those involved if found guilty public hangings


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

I'm not sure which is more sad:

Rich Canadians who go abroad for health treatments and then say that our healthcare system should be cherished and just needs more funding to be made even better and reduce wait times...

or Rich Canadians who don't go abroad and deny themselves and their children good health treatments that they can easily afford because "everyone should have equal access to good healthcare in Canada".

Both are pretty sad.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Doug Ford cuts to healthcare.





__





doug ford cuts to healthcare - Google Search






www.google.com


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

peterk said:


> I'm not sure which is more sad:
> 
> Rich Canadians who go abroad for health treatments and then say that our healthcare system should be cherished and just needs more funding to be made even better and reduce wait times...
> 
> ...


Danny Williams fits the first one.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

zinfit said:


> I note that the border crossing topic has crossed into a discussion about the problems with theCanadian Healthcare System. In my case I am looking at a 36 month wait for a knee replacement. I did a fair bit of research on certain Mexican clinics and the Surgery Center of Oklahoma. I have embarked on obtaining my knee replacement in Mexico. It will involve an orthopaedic surgeon trained in Germany and Texas with years of experience and using the latest technology and procedures. The knee replacement device is a Zimmer and it is the world's leader in knee replacement devices. The total cost will be 12.5 k i US dollars and includes all medications, up to 7 days of hospital care and full physical therapy for after surgery recovery. Three years of further knee deterioration and pain was not an option for me. The Oklahoma centre will do the surgery for 16k . The issue there is the high cost of hospital care if it was required. The wait times for elective surgery and other procedures is becoming totally unacceptable. Other countries with single payer system have much shorter wait times. May-be its time for some shakeups with the Canadian model?


Zinfit did you do any research on ConforMIS knee replacement ? I highly recommend looking into ConforMIS knee replacement it is the knee replacement Harold Harb went with, who is probably the most respected ski boot alignment specialist in the world.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

"
*Canadian Healthcare system is a nightmare! *


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## diharv (Apr 19, 2011)

peterk said:


> I'm not sure which is more sad:
> 
> Rich Canadians who go abroad for health treatments and then say that our healthcare system should be cherished and just needs more funding to be made even better and reduce wait times...
> 
> ...


The second one is pretty bad. Like someone I was talking with that has to wait a year(s) for an MRI for a back issue but won't pay for one right away because it should be "free"under the current system. Meanwhile, keep on waiting and deteriorating.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

diharv said:


> The second one is pretty bad. Like someone I was talking with that has to wait a year(s) for an MRI for a back issue but won't pay for one right away because it should be "free"under the current system. Meanwhile, keep on waiting and deteriorating.


Pre-Covid times i was communicating with Havana Hospital.....they offer packages , flight + transfer+ same date MRI + transfer and flight back with MRI results for 600USD


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

No I didn"t.around 2021 I researched joint replacements and figured Stryker was the leDer.Zimmer was number 2. Will have to check it out.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Actually BC offers 24 hour MRIs and I had one at 1130 pm Friday to rule out stenosis for my hip pain. Turns out to be arthritis in my hips. Treated by meds and exercise .


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> Pre-Covid times i was communicating with Havana Hospital.....they offer packages , flight + transfer+ same date MRI + transfer and flight back with MRI results for 600USD


So then you come back to Ontario and then what ? It won't move up your appointment with a specialist or get treatment.

We need to expand healthcare from start to finish and that will cost a lot of money. We need to raise taxes on those who can afford to pay more.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

sags said:


> Doug Ford cuts to healthcare.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They reallocated it from some areas to others.

He didn't cut healthcare spending, because as you know Heath care spending has gone up every year.


Now lets look at one of these "cuts"
Plans to reduce the number of Public Health Units from 35 to 10. 
Why do we need 35 public health units?

They're trimming administration expenses, but increasing overall spending, so that's actually more money to care for people.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

The unions and vested interests have a solution spend more money. Last I looked Ottawa had a deficit of 340 billion and Ontario was a total mess when it comes to public finances. Another issue is the baby boom generation will be putting more and more pressure on the system until they pass on. The system has to see changes especially in terms of efficiency . There are a lot of very high priced administrators and bureaucrats in the system. Are they all necessary? If more money is needed charge an annual premium based on a persons income . It could be deducted from one's paycheque just like CPP. Germany funds its system in part by such premiums. The original medicare plan in SK had a premium . A user fee for elective surgery might help . Lower income people would be exempt. Permit stand alone private services which are solely funded by the private sector.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Permit stand alone private services which are solely funded by the private sector.


Honestly that is the simplest and easiest way to get people to put more money into heathcare.

It always boggles my mind how much easier it is to get heath care outside of the provincial program.
Vet, Dentist, chiropractor, physiotherapy, blood tests, ultrasounds, ecgs, X rays, you can get these services from many providers, very cheap and very quickly.
But scheduling for an insured procedure.. good luck.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> Honestly that is the simplest and easiest way to get people to put more money into heathcare.
> 
> It always boggles my mind how much easier it is to get heath care outside of the provincial program.
> Vet, Dentist, chiropractor, physiotherapy, blood tests, ultrasounds, ecgs, X rays, you can get these services from many providers, very cheap and very quickly.
> But scheduling for an insured procedure.. good luck.


So true I have a vascular surgeon who checks my aorta aneurysm once a year . It is always a cumbersome process. This year I wanted to talk to him about any problems with the aorta with a knee replacement. I am patiently waiting and hoping fr a reply to my request. I am not holding my breath. My best bet is to go WebMD or the Mayo Clinic sites and see what they say.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> So then you come back to Ontario and then what ? It won't move up your appointment with a specialist or get treatment.
> 
> We need to expand healthcare from start to finish and that will cost a lot of money. We need to raise taxes on those who can afford to pay more.


It's not true!
First of all, you gonna know what you have with your knee, what can you do and what cannot... Uncertainty is killing...
If you have MRI done niw and not in 4 months, most likely you can schedule surgery earlier... Also, depends on the situation, you may decide to get surgery in US


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Just book for my mom cataract surgery consultation in private clinic .... the first available appointment is in ....10 months! And this is ONLY consultation! Unbelievable!

Also booked her appointment to Rheumatologist in public clinic ..... 1st available appointment is mid-September


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> So then you come back to Ontario and then what ? It won't move up your appointment with a specialist or get treatment.
> 
> We need to expand healthcare from start to finish and that will cost a lot of money. We need to raise taxes on those who can afford to pay more.


Typical socialist thinking get some one else to pay for your healthcare. Problem is the golden goose you are talking about can simply move his residency to another country and be outside the reach of the tax man. A simple question . Why do you think you have the right to force someone else to pay for your healthcare? Why can't you pay your ow way?


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Pre-Covid times i was communicating with Havana Hospital.....they offer packages , flight + transfer+ same date MRI + transfer and flight back with MRI results for 600USD


 ... and you did all that research to conclude that it was MOST WORTH it to wait in Ontario, Canada and get to continuously scream out that our health system sucks big time. Why is it that?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

zinfit said:


> Typical socialist thinking get some one else to pay for your healthcare. Problem is the golden goose you are talking about can simply move his residency to another country and be outside the reach of the tax man. A simple question . Why do you think you have the right to force someone else to pay for your healthcare? Why can't you pay your ow way?


imho, who cannot pay - may wait in line, who can pay - should be able to get faster and better service....


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Just book for my mom cataract surgery consultation in private clinic .... the first available appointment is in ....10 months! And this is ONLY consultation! Unbelievable!


 ... 10 months is still shorter than a year = 12 months. consider her lucky.



> Also booked her appointment to Rheumatologist in public clinic ..... 1st available appointment is mid-September


 ... that is unbelieveably fast. But why would your mother need to see a "rheumatologist" when she can see her family GP right away and get a quicker diagnosis? And possibly immediate treatment. Sounds like using the Canadian-health system to practice privating to an American-type of healthcare. No wonder our socialist healthcare system is going broke.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> imho, who cannot pay - may wait in line, who can pay - should be able to get faster and better service....


 .. and are you willing to pay $19K for a kneecap replacement or are you gonna to b1tch first about how much tax you have to pay into OHIP? And then claim it under your/your wife's health insurance plan because you can so afford it?


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Free health care in Canada is widely advertised as one of the prime advantages Canada has vs the USA, among prospective immigrants. But somehow the waiting time rarely mentioned.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

So basically, some people want a comprehensive healthcare system with readily available doctors and full facilities standing by.........and not pay the cost.

Maybe they could explain how that would work in the real world ?


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

MrMatt said:


> Honestly that is the simplest and easiest way to get people to put more money into heathcare.
> 
> It always boggles my mind how much easier it is to get heath care outside of the provincial program.
> Vet, Dentist, chiropractor, physiotherapy, blood tests, ultrasounds, ecgs, X rays, you can get these services from many providers, very cheap and very quickly.
> But scheduling for an insured procedure.. good luck.


 The government can no longer be trusted. The public sector is not efficient. It is time to ban government from health care & education. The private sector will do a better job. Doctors can not even use a drug that has been proven to work hydroxychloroquine to fight Covid instead the government wants to jab everyone with experimental cocktails. No competition in health care they just follow the corrupt WHO. Cost of education & health care has sky rocketed over the years because government.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> and not pay the cost.


The same system used by dentistry could be implemented.


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## Fain (Oct 11, 2009)

sags said:


> So then you come back to Ontario and then what ? It won't move up your appointment with a specialist or get treatment.


Sure it can if the results are worrisome.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Cannot comment on wait times on electives.

My father went into emergency a few years ago in Vancouver. Five days or so later he had a pacemaker installed.

My spouse had a neuro challenge two years ago. When it was finally diagnosed and the MRIs etc.completed she had neuro surgery (in Calgary) within three days. Plus a fair amount of aftercare. It was potentially life saving surgery that could not be delayed. So it was scheduled in. Surgeon called me on my cell as soon as he and his assistant stepped out of the theatre.

Did my spouses surgery and use of the OR preclude others who were waiting for elective but were pushed back? I have no idea. It is a resourcing issue made by health care professionals based up the availability of resources and facilities. The amount of which are not under their control.

Same for my grandson when he was a newborn and living in FT. Mac. He was airlifted to Edmonton from the local hospital several times and seen immediately by the appropriate specialists.

There will always be challenges with a Gov’t run healthcare system. It is inevitable. But the same holds true for a private system. Especially one where money or insurance coverage can determine quality of care or indeed even access to care itself.

Not saying that the wait times are acceptable. Based on actual stats that get published from time to time they are anything but acceptable. Health care is the biggest single budget item for Provinces. Would people be willing to accept a tax increase in order to fund health care to a higher level? I don't know the answer to that.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

ian said:


> Health care is the biggest single budget item for Provinces. Would people be willing to accept a tax increase in order to fund health care to a higher level? I don't know the answer to that.


I would say abolish the free health care system, that would allow to drastically decrease taxes (and number of free loaders in the system) and motivate people to lead a healthier life style. It will also reduce the waiting time for many.


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## Ricehammer4416 (Jan 6, 2021)

Like Ian, I've had multiple great experiences with the healthcare system. About 6 years ago my 89 year old grandmother was diagnosed with cancer. Within days she was operated on and has been healthy ever since. This year my father was diagnosed with cancer, within days he was operated on. So far so good. My dad worked hard his whole life - a brick layer. He's already back at it. He couldn't have afforded the surgery in a private system. My family would be near bankrupt and/or down 1-2 members without a public funded system. 

On the flip side I blew my ACL playing hockey 20 years ago and had to wait a year to have it repaired. 

That sucked but I'd consider it a fair trade. 

We have problems with our system. I think we need to be open, especially with an aging population to making changes to make sure it's better funded and / or more efficiently run. But I do believe in the type of system we have. Personally I'm not against paying more in relation to my income to make sure the system is better funded. For those who want to abolish the system or change their country of residence in order to pay increased taxes.... I do believe the money paid in extra taxes would still be less than either of these options. Especially once you factor in a couple sick family members.

Perhaps we need to look at how other countries with universal healthcare are funding their systems and how they are run.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ricehammer4416 said:


> Perhaps we need to look at how other countries with universal healthcare are funding their systems and how they are run.


I agree with this statement... The problem with OHIP (and obviously other provinces health systems) is monopoly! They do wherever they want .... In Israel, there is also Universal Health care , but there is no monopoly.....it's competitive and 100 times better than here

_*Under the National Health Insurance Law, membership in one of the four following health funds, or Kupot Holim (Patient Funds) is compulsory for all residents of Israel: Clalit, Maccabi, Meuhedet and Leumit. Clalit is the largest of the four, with about half of the population belonging to it. The four Kupot Holim are obligated by the law to offer a minimum package of health services and treatments, known as the "Health Basket" (סל הבריאות; Sal HaBriut ), to all their members. The law established a system of direct oversight of the Kupot Holim by the state, and certain services are under the direct administration of the State, usually by means of the Ministry of Health.*_

*The Health Basket covers all costs of medical diagnosis and treatment in the areas of family medicine, hospitalization (general, maternity, psychiatric and chronic), preventive medicine, surgery (including elective surgery), transplants, treatment for drug abuse and alcoholism, medical equipment and appliances, first aid and transportation to a medical facility, obstetrics and fertility treatment, medications approved under the National Health Basket (which is updated every year), treatment of chronic diseases and paramedical services such as physiotherapy and occupational therapy, and mental healthcare.[17][18][19] Medications for serious illnesses that are part of the official "basket of medications" formulary (which is large and updated regularly, but does not include all medications) are covered, though patients must partially pay for these medications with copays: medications included in the basket are covered at rates that vary from 50% to 90%.[20] IVF treatments for the first two children up to the age of 45 and abortions are also covered.

A committee appointed by the health ministry reviews the contents of the health basket on a yearly basis and determines which new treatments will be added to it within the constraints of the annual budget allocated to the basket by the government.[21]

In general, each Kupat Holim allows members to choose a primary care physician and specialists from a list of healthcare providers associated with the fund.[20] Availability of services differs by location, as each of these organizations operate their own medical facilities, including private hospitals.*

_*While the Kupot Holim typically cover medical treatment in Israel, they can fund medical procedures abroad when the procedure in question cannot be obtained in Israel. There is a cap of $250,000 without copay to fund treatment abroad, though that limit can be waived by the Director-General of the Health Ministry*_

But I don't believe anything gonna change here, too much corruption and mafia rules everything and healthcare always will be interior comparing to other developed countries


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> On the flip side I blew my ACL playing hockey 20 years ago and had to wait a year to have it repaired.


My wife was waiting for ACL even more 4 years ago... If you consider it's normal, you really deserve healthcare you have! We were ready to pay (on top of our ridiculous taxes), but not private MRI , not private surgery are allowed in this country of "developed socialism"...


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Three years ago, the largest single cause of personal bankruptcies in the US was medical bills.

Credit collection firms in the US are doing land office business this year. Why? Unpaid covid related hospital billls are being turned over to agencies for collection.

Speak to someone in the travel insurance business. US hospital bills are routinely settled by these insurance companies for 50 cents on the dollar or less. Paid by cash transfer immediately after price negotiation.

If you think that a private health care system is better take a look at the differences in national GDP spent on health care between various countries. 12 percent is average, 17-20 percent of GDP in a country is a danger zone. And then look at the health outcome stats. Then look at the health care stats based on socio economic status in those countries....most especially the infant mortality rates.

There are huge issues in the provision of health care that transcend the simple statement that private is better than public, or this public system is better than another, or a hybrid system is best. It is very complicated and there are many arm chair experts who really do not understand the larger issues. Perhaps a hybrid system would be better...I really do not know.


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## Ricehammer4416 (Jan 6, 2021)

I find one of the most unfortunate issues in how the healthcare debate is framed is that it too often comes down to an "Us vs Them" choice between universal healthcare Canadian Style vs the all out private system in the US. 

When looking at the comparison it's easy to feel smug about our system (US proponents would say the same). It's really not where we should be looking or comparing ourselves. We need to start looking abroad - to Europe, perhaps Israel... places where healthcare systems are similar to ours but where outcomes are better. 

Apples to apples, not apples to oranges.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I would say abolish the free health care system, that would allow to drastically decrease taxes (and number of free loaders in the system) and motivate people to lead a healthier life style. It will also reduce the waiting time for many.


LOL, because we can see from the US that their people are much more motivated than us to lead a healthy lifestyle.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

If PM of one of the Canadian provinces is going to have routine heart surgery in US, it tells what kind of health care we have


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## agent99 (Sep 11, 2013)

Spudd said:


> LOL, because we can see from the US that their people are much more motivated than us to lead a healthy lifestyle.


^^ Ever seen the patrons in one of those all you can eat restaurants when heading South


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

denndeko said:


> In my opinion, in Canada there is the best medical system in the world


And Canada is mother land of elephants 🤣


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

denndeko said:


> In my opinion, in Canada there is the best medical system in the world


Canada is near the top when it comes to spending......not so much when it comes to patient care. We easily rank in the bottom third of industrialized nations.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

denndeko said:


> In my opinion, in Canada there is the best medical system in the world


 Let me ask you. How many of the medical systems in the world you have got the personal experience?
Le’s make a list.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It would be a short list to find ones better than Canada.

Sure......you can get top level care in a private hospital in the US but it is out of the price range for 98% of the population.

The only possible better healthcare systems would have to be socialized medical systems that spend more and have higher taxes to pay the cost.

Some people believe you can pay less and get more. If it were possible we would already be doing it.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Whenever a Canadian hockey player or other athlete gets hurt while playing in the US, they rush them home to Canada because of the better level of healthcare.

We have had many famous people and well known athletes come to our University hospital for state of the art treatment. Our cardiac floors are the best in the world. The Ivey Eye Institute is top ranked. Our orthopedic surgeons are world renowned. We are a world leader in robotic surgery and new techniques.

As the population ages and increases in number, we are going to need more hospitals and health care expansion.

We just need to allocate the dollars to do it. Where there is a will.........there is a way.

People who think other countries are better should give it a rest. Their claims are moronic and their foolishness is tiresome.

There is no better country than Canada........the end.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> It would be a short list to find ones better than Canada.


You should read the OP again.
36 months wait for a surgery. That is hardly a good health care system in my book.
Most Europeans countries got better medical systems, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, Cuba, Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, South Korea, Israel, Qatar, Sri Lanka, Turkey, Argentina etc.


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

_Health care in Canada is ranked poorly relative to other high-income countries by the 2017 Commonwealth Fund Report._


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

South Korea has the best health care systems in the world, that’s according to the 2021 edition of the CEOWORLD magazine Health Care Index, which ranks 89 countries according to factors that contribute to overall health.

Two additional Asian nations were among the top 10 in 2021: Taiwan (second place) and Japan (fifth). As for European countries, they occupy SIX of the top TEN spots in this year’s ranking: Denmark (3rd place) Austria (4th place), France (7th), Spain (8th), Belgium (9th), and the United Kingdom 10th place.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There are teams of Canadian specialists who travel to Saudi Arabia and other countries to perform complex surgeries, that they aren't capable of doing.

Where do you think their doctors go for specialized training ?

Our University hospital attracts resident physicians from all over the world. Almost every time I have been in hospital, a resident from another country was in training and was part of the surgical team. I had a heart stent put in by a doctor from Spain.

This is where they come to learn the most advanced techniques.

Our next door neighbor had chest pains a couple months ago in the middle of the night. Her husband drove her to the hospital.

They stabilized her and gave her pain meds........and performed open heart bypass surgery the next morning......despite the pandemic.

People are waiting for "elective" surgeries, and it is something we need to address.......but you don't upend the system.......you fix it.

Cutting healthcare spending (a priority it seems for Conservatives) is a bad idea. There are better ways to cut spending or raise revenues.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Alberta Premier Jason Kenney is giving Canadians a look at what Conservative priorities are for healthcare, just as Ontario Premier Doug Ford did.

He is demanding a 5% wage cut for nurses in Alberta, even though they are being paid a "median" salary compared to other Provinces.

The nurses association say it is a ruse deployed to create an argument for a private system, which Conservatives are itching to create.

The experience with private systems like the US is they are a failure, but never mind that it if doesn't fit within their ideology.

Not a single person interviewed on the street supported the pay cut. Most people said the nurses deserve a raise.

Good luck promoting cuts to healthcare or healthcare spending in Canada. That is a non-starter policy.

No wonder Kenney is going down in flames.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Even WHO gives Canada 30’s something place behind countries like Morocco and Columbia...


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

sags said:


> He is demanding a 5% wage cut for nurses in Alberta, even though they are being paid a "median" salary compared to other Provinces.


I don’t see why nurses in Canada should be paid more than nurses in Germany, they definitely are not doing better job. Health care personnel in Canada are way overpaid, and under performing (super slow work pace) if they are not happy with wages, they are free to leave (go to the States where you gotta earn every dollar you get paid, fast paced working environment) and there will be plenty immigrants fighting for your position and willing to work for less.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t see why nurses in Canada should be paid more than nurses in Germany, they definitely are not doing better job. Health care personnel in Canada are way overpaid, and under performing (super slow work pace) if they are not happy with wages, they are free to leave (go to the States where you gotta earn every dollar you get paid, fast paced working environment) and there will be plenty immigrants fighting for your position and willing to work for less.


No way! In States nurses would need really to work


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Let me ask you. How many of the medical systems in the world you have got the personal experience?
> Le’s make a list.


I've said many times, I lived 10 years in Israel and can tell that Israeli Health system 1000 times better


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

sags said:


> It would be a short list to find ones better than Canada.
> 
> Sure......you can get top level care in a private hospital in the US but it is out of the price range for 98% of the population.
> 
> ...





sags said:


> There are teams of Canadian specialists who travel to Saudi Arabia and other countries to perform complex surgeries, that they aren't capable of doing.
> 
> Where do you think their doctors go for specialized training ?
> 
> ...


Don't confuse having excellent healthcare practitioners with having a good healthcare system.

Canada's healthcare system has been a disaster for decades. Funding is increased every year, but yet wait times increase and access deteriorates. A increasing portion of the funding goes to palliative care because of the poor access in the early stages of health problems.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We have known about an aging population for decades. We should have been spending more to address it.

Now we are stuck with inadequate LTC homes and need more hospitals.

Past governments avoided spending what was necessary, created a healthcare deficit and now we are facing the results of those poor policies.

In Ontario years ago the Mike Harris government pledged to create a "crisis in healthcare" and that is exactly what they did.

We have been trying to catch up ever since. The pigeons came home to roost.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Gator13 said:


> Don't confuse having excellent healthcare practitioners with having a good healthcare system.
> 
> Canada's healthcare system has been a disaster for decades. Funding is increased every year, but yet wait times increase and access deteriorates. A increasing portion of the funding goes to palliative care because of the poor access in the early stages of health problems.


If you remember , about 10-15 years ago Ontario introduced new Health Tax and healthcare system continued to deteriorate!


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

sags said:


> There are teams of Canadian specialists who travel to Saudi Arabia and other countries to perform complex surgeries, that they aren't capable of doing.
> 
> Where do you think their doctors go for specialized training ?
> 
> ...


All the specialists I have encountered got their post doctorate and speciality training in the USA.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> I don’t see why nurses in Canada should be paid more than nurses in Germany, they definitely are not doing better job. Health care personnel in Canada are way overpaid, and under performing (super slow work pace) if they are not happy with wages, they are free to leave (go to the States where you gotta earn every dollar you get paid, fast paced working environment) and there will be plenty immigrants fighting for your position and willing to work for less.


A big chunk of the healthcare money is going to nurses and bureaucrats . Hospital are not clean . Their is isn't enough dollars to pay for proper cleaning. A big risk in our hospitals is getting staff infection. The best thing one can do after surgery is get out of the hospital. There are certain posters who are clearly tied to the unions and their repetitive responses are predictable with certainty. Alberta doctors and nurses are paid on average at a higher rate then BC or SK. The difference isn't chump change. Te former SK NDP Finace Minister has documented that in her report.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Because cleaning in hospitals is largely unionized. So it is expensive and poor.
The outcry when cleaning and laundry services were supposed to be moved to non-union in Alberta has been absolutely insane.
Even though it assures accountability and is significantly cheaper, allowing that money to be used more effectively.

The amount of money unions used to fight that change could build a couple hospitals!
Changes that improve efficiency and performance of health care system are fought in every step. Those at the trough, those who waste the money spent on healthcare, are doing everything to stay there.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Contracting out cleaning services to non-union private companies is like searching the couch for pennies.

We need a serious increase in healthcare funding now. The neglect has led to a healthcare deficit that requires immediate attention.

Alberta wasted billions on a defunct Keystone Pipeline and now they can't afford to pay nurses a median salary for nurses across Canada ?

Rachel Notley will be the Premier of Alberta shortly.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Contracting out cleaning services to non-union private companies is like searching the couch for pennies.
> 
> We need a serious increase in healthcare funding now. The neglect has led to a healthcare deficit that requires immediate attention.
> 
> ...







__





Registered Nurse Salary in Canada | Wages#


Compare salaries for registered nurses in Alberta, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, PEI, Nova Scotia, Northwest Territories, Nunavut, Yukon.




canadaimmigrants.com





In Alberta even if salaries to nurses were cut by 10%, they would still be above median salary for entire country.
You would have to cut it by 15% for it to hit median.
The proposed rollback is 3%.
So you are lying yet again, and an easily verifiable lie as well.
If you are not lying and are simply among those majority of people born in Canada who are numerically illiterate, then I apologize. A decrease of 3% is less than a decrease of 15%. Therefore the salaries in Alberta for nurses will still be significantly higher than median in Canada.

"Contracting out cleaning services to non-union private companies is like searching the couch for pennies."
That's exactly what needs to be done. Look for efficiencies. Will it solve majority of large issues with Canadian Health Care system? No. But better service at lower cost is a step in right direction.
Problem? People working in healthcare themselves are against progress, and against efficient use of resources. They are on the receiving end of the wasted dollars.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Jason Kenney said Alberta nurses get paid 5.6% more "on average" than the rest of Canada. (average isn't median income)

He wants to cut 3% of their wages. The nurses association says they also want to cut another 2% in benefits for a total of 5% cuts.

If Alberta had a sales tax like most other Provinces, they wouldn't have a deficit at all.

Kenney is pandering to his right wing base. Unfortunately for him.........that means the NDP will win the next election.

But he may not have a choice. He is desperate now.









Barely out of a pandemic, here’s why Jason Kenney’s government is picking a fight with Alberta nurses


The premier said nurse compensation is, on average, 5.6 per cent higher than the rest of Canada and that “we have a $16-$17 billion deficit.” The head of the nurses union called the wage rollback plan “incredibly insulting” to an “exhausted workforce.”




www.thestar.com


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Don't know where the source of that number is. Maybe it looks at total compensation.
Either way, it doesn't change the fact. 5.6% > 3%. Therefore your previous statement is still a lie.
Even after cuts, nurses in Alberta will have higher salaries than average in Canada.
And I am not an advocate for a wage cut to nurses. I believe there are much better ways to increase efficiency in health care.
I simply don't like when people lie so I am calling you out on it.

Ahh, that's the answer, isn't it? Just add more taxes!
Especially sales tax that hits people who spend (vs save or invest) higher proportion of their income.
Let's add more taxes on the poor is your answer? - no wonder you vote liberal!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Apparently your superior math skills don't include the difference between "average" and "median".


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Apparently your superior math skills don't include the difference between "average" and "median".


I already provided you numbers for median. 
You provided numbers for average.
Either way, in both cases, even after cuts nurses in Alberta will be compensated better than rest of nurses in Canada.

Your statement is still a lie


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Your "evidence" is from some obscure website that includes psychiatric nurses. They might as well include RNs working in a doctor's office as well.

You do know that nurses working in hospitals are paid at a higher rate because of the work they do, and nurses working in specialized units and operating rooms earn even higher wages ?

The bottom line is that Kenney has the objective of slashing healthcare costs at a time when he pisses away billions on a defunct pipeline and refuses to implement a sales tax. I give Kenney credit as he remains faithful to the right wing Conservative dogma and his Harper reformer roots.

It isn't going over well with most of the voters though. I imagine Rachel Notley is happy to offer a different strategy.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

You will not find a single source showing that average or median nurse salary in Alberta is below level in entire Canada.

Man, you are on a roll.
Another lie.
Do you speak truth sometimes, even by accident?

The healthcare costs is not going to get slashed.

The health budget is to rise by about $1 billion to $21.4 billion.(Operating spending)
Thursday’s budget shows spending on health care in Alberta in 2021-22 will be $23 billion — an increase of about $877 million, or four per cent — from last year’s estimated total. (Total spending).
In the 2021-22 budget, AHS job numbers are set to go up to 83,510 full-time equivalents — an increase of 2,940.

And regarding laundry services, etc:
Outsourcing positions in laboratories, housekeeping, food services, and laundry over three years — could save AHS $600 million annually when the plan is fully implemented


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Your information is incomplete and misleading.

Alberta froze healthcare spending in 2020 and funding fell behind by the rate of inflation and increased demand, which was estimated to be over 3%.

The latest increase in spending is attributable to Covid related spending and is a temporary increase in spending.

It is up to Alberta voters to decide and thus far there appears little support to cut nurses pay. Even the right wing media Edmonton Sun is opposed to the idea.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

sags said:


> Your information is incomplete and misleading.
> 
> Alberta froze healthcare spending in 2020 and funding fell behind by the rate of inflation and increased demand, which was estimated to be over 3%.
> 
> ...


My information is complete. You provide no information.
If you checked actual numbers, you would have to eat less crow.

Alberta population growth Q2 2020 - Q2 2021: 0.6%
Inflation target: 2%
2+0.6 = 2.6%

1bln/21,4bln = 4.7%
0.877/(23-0.877) = 4.0%
4.7% > 2.6%
4.0% > 2.6%

Government of Alberta increase in spending on healthcare outpaces inflation and population growth combined.
It also outpaces increase in healthcare transfers of federal government.
Government of Alberta spending per capita on healthcare is higher than in: BC, MB, NB, NS, ON, PEI, QC, SK.

You really chose a wrong tree to bark at.
Lowest spending on healthcare per capita is in BC. *Over 15% lower than in Alberta*

Go yell at John Horgan to finally catch up with Alberta PC government in health care spending.
They already have their sales tax so it shouldn't be a problem, right?


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