# How long have you kept your car?



## My Own Advisor

I wrote a post on my site some time ago, stating why I drive an 11-year-old car.

http://www.myownadvisor.ca/2011/08/why-i-drive-an-11-year-old-car/

That was 2011. The car is now 13-years-old. I hope to keep my Mazda for a few more years.

Because most cars are a depreciating asset, they are not a good investment. I've seen many references in this forum to cars, keeping them; holding on to them; because this is one way to spend (or not spend) like you want to be wealthy.

I'm curious: to the frugal, to the financially free, to everyone, what is the longest you've owned a car?


----------



## rikk

I buy used and tend to keep a vehicle about 10 years ... my capital cost has been ~$2K per year ... and ... I only buy vehicles that run on regular gas. Current vehicle is a 2005 Jeep Liberty Limited, bought used, every available option ... purchased in 2008 for $16K. Using past as prologue, I'll be keeping the jeep until at least 2016+ ... $2K/yr. I bought the jeep to tow a boat ... wanted a nice daily ride plus 4WD Low, limited slip rear differential for pulling the boat out of swamps. The boat has grown, it winters over in the 1000 Islands. Next vehicle doesn't have to be a "truck" but will be at least AWD ...


----------



## AGHFX

My Own Advisor said:


> Because most cars are a depreciating asset, they are not a good investment.


Haha I just consider a car to be an expense! :tongue-new:

I bought my first car in 2009 when I was in high school. Bought a new 2009 Hyundai Accent hatchback. I still drive it and I plan on keeping it for many more years. The benefit to me for buying a new car is Hyundai cars come with an excellent warranty and I don't need to worry about large maintenance expenses while I'm in university. When I've had enough with this car, however, I plan on sticking with buying 1-2 year old used cars - let someone else absorb the initial depreciation.


----------



## Jon_Snow

I have a 13 year old Toyota Tacoma 4X4 pickup. Still looks new, runs great, never a single problem with it. As much as I toss around the idea of buying a nice new vehicle I really have no reason to do so. 

I treated myself and had a nice audio and security system installed early this year which further helped to quell my desire for a new ride. I think I'm going to drive this truck forever - only 190k km on it - can easily see going to 400k and beyond.


----------



## HaroldCrump

My car is currently in its 13th year.
Bought it new fresh out of the factory in the summer of 2000.
Plan to keep it for another...um, 13 years.


----------



## Addy

We just sold our 17 year old van over the winter and bought a 2 year old F150. We paid cash for the truck, it's a more 'luxurious truck, (Platinum trim package with ecoboost) which we wanted because it will be both a family vehicle and tow vehicle for our travel trailer. We paid a small fortune for it but we hope to have it for 20 years by keeping up the oil changes and other regular maintenance. Plus F150's are the most popular truck on the road, which means when it comes to the age where we need to replace major parts, we will get them from the auto wrecker.

There's usually no reason that, with regular maintenance, most vehicles can't stay on the road for 15-20 years, sometimes more imho.


----------



## Addy

AGHFX said:


> Haha I just consider a car to be an expense! :tongue-new:


I chuckle when I need to fill out a form that lists "automobiles" under "assets"!


----------



## Ponderling

I aim to buy vehicles that are 4 or so years used, and drive them until they are 16-17 years used. 

I have a 1997 tercel that is rusting in places, and has 275k on the original motor and tranny. 

Since buying that one I have started to oil spray our vehicles. We old age them before out km'ing them in our current driving pattern, so I am hioping the anniual oil spray cost counters that.


----------



## summer

The longest was under 10 years.
I had a Honda Odyssey, it had 285 Km when the transmission went, wasn't worth fixing.
How do you make your cars last so long? I assume regular maintenance but we do that as well and not one of our cars lasted that long.


----------



## kcowan

My ride here is a 1993 Ford Explorer, purchased new in 1992, with 139000 original kilometers on the clock.

(One could argue that with so little driving it is a luxury and I would agree.)


----------



## crazyjackcsa

What a bunch of rookies! My truck is 19-years-old, and I plan on another 5 years. My wife's van is 9 years old, and we hope to get another 5 out of it (she drives twice as much as I do for work) Add that in with my 42 year old hobby and the fleet has an average age of more than 23 years.

The truck of course has had the most work, but it still isn't too bad. Brake lines, Gas lines, oil cooler lines. Pulled out the AC out when the condenser seized up, some front end suspension parts too.


----------



## brad

When I lived in Vermont I bought a Honda Civic wagon in 1990 and put 402,000 km on it (250,000 miles) before I sold it on to a family of four, who drove it for another 160,000 km (100,000 miles) before they sold it on to someone else. As far as I know it could still be out there, although the body probably rusted out.

Like others here, I don't view cars as assets. My current car is a 2005 Toyota Matrix; we don't drive very much so it hasn't even hit 100,000 km yet; I'm hoping to keep it another 5-6 years or so, and then we'll probably go car-free, using a car-share service and public transportation.


----------



## Four Pillars

Is this the 'smug-emitting old car thread'? 

Fine - I'll play.

2004 Jeep Liberty. Still works well and very little rust, so hopefully we can keep it for a long time.


----------



## MoneyGal

FP you are winning all the threads these days. "smug-emitting" = genius.


----------



## Sampson

1997 Subaru Outback - leaky head gasket and all but still running. Use it for short trips to day care and groceries and errands.

Probably have to retire it soon, but it may be the car I start to learn how to wrench with, so we'll see... hopefully I learn how to fix it and get another 2 years out of it.

Not the smuggest, but pretty smug over here. Not our primary car though.


----------



## Four Pillars

MoneyGal said:


> FP you are winning all the threads these days. "smug-emitting" = genius.


Haha - thanks.

Just to be clear - the 'smug-emitting' idea was unfortunately not mine: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!


----------



## MoneyGal

Clearly I am not watching enough South Park. I'm spending all my discretionary TV-watching time on The Regular Show and Adventure Time these days (the episodes are about 11 minutes long, so no big investments!)


----------



## dave2012

We had been buying used for many years, but last week splurged on a decked out new RAM truck.

When I worked out the cost of our previous SUV (Yukon) less what we sold it for and the yearly maintenance (not cheap on a 10 year old Yukon!) and considered the savings in gas on the new RAM we weren't far off the total cost of yearly ownership of our 10 year old vehicle yet we have a much nicer ride with a warranty. As long as we keep it for 8 or more years it is well worth replacing the 10 year old SUV. Our yearly maintenance on the Yukon wasn't cheap.

Would have been wiser to buy something 1 or 2 years old, but we had some extra cash for a splurge this time around.

Funny thing is that 33% of the cash required to buy the new truck was covered by all the gains we have made over the last 8 months in ACQ stock


----------



## Hawkdog

Love the Smug reference!

I have never kept a vehicle for more than 4 years so I don't have one to talk about but I had a question - at one point does vehicle frugality compromise safety?
I have friends who finally upgraded their 1990 4runner. I used to question them on how they felt driving their two little kids around in it considering it was completely rusted out and not very moose friendly. Especially on long holiday trips over xmas.


----------



## KaeJS

My Mazda is 10 years old this year. :encouragement:

However, due to my age, I have only had it for 6 years.


----------



## jamesbe

It's got a 7 year old vehicle. I want a newer one but I can't bring myself to spend the money when it's paid for. Even major maintenance costs would be cheaper than the depreciation on a newer vehicle.


----------



## Charlie

I'm doubling down on smug. My 20 yo Jeep with 160K kms has been sitting in the garage for the past few years as I've taken to riding a bike! My wife's 10yo car has about 90K kms and I figure it's good for another 10 or more. I'm hating my own pretentiousness even as I type this.....


----------



## Jagas

My car is about to turn 12 years old - bought new in 2001. There is tons of life left in it but it has far too few doors for the number of kids that need to ride in it. This car is probably my one chance to slip a post into the frugality section as I use the age of my car to justify just about every other expenditure in my life. Trip to Hawaii? No problem, my car is 12 years old. Two new motorcycles this year? Why not, I drive a 12 year old car after all. House with 3 more bedrooms then we need? Hells yeah, with the money saved on that old car, easy peasy. You get the idea...


----------



## Four Pillars

Charlie said:


> as I've taken to riding a bike!
> ... I'm hating my own pretentiousness even as I type this.....


Lol - yes, all my bikes are heavy smug polluters for sure.


----------



## NorthKC

Well, let's see. Our family car, 1976 Ford Econoline lasted till 2001. It had 1.1 million miles on that truck (yes, miles). It was still running but the steering column broke and there was no other part available in the world (we were searching for 2 months with the help of 2 part-savvy mechanics) so we had to get rid of it or fork over $3k just to make one!

My old car that I inherited from my father was 13 years old (we've had that car for 8 years) before I had to get rid of it due to high cost of repairs to make it road safe for potentially one more year on the road. I had over 500k on that car with 75% of it from highway driving.

I've bought a 2012 Mazda 3 last year (1 year old at end of month) and I plan to drive it into the ground in at least 15-20 years from now  I'll tell you though, it's so nice being able to get into the car knowing that it will always start and no more creaks or groans when it hits every single bump!


----------



## nathan79

The longest I owned a vehicle was 7 years, but my average is closer to 2 years. I buy vehicles that are already 10-15 years old, then sell them for only slightly less than I paid for them. For example, I paid $1850 for my last car, drove it for 4 years, then sold it for $1475.

I often buy cars that have cosmetic issues, but are otherwise mechanically sound. I have found that cleaning a vehicle can add about $500 to its value, so that immediately lessens my depreciation hit. Another common issue with older cars is broken parts such as trim pieces, which are easily replaced from the auto wrecker for $10 or so. Paint chips can be touched up, and a wax job does wonders.

One thing about older cars is potential repairs, though I'd say I spend only about $500 a year on average. Most of the repairs are fairly cheap stuff like water pumps, hoses, struts, exhaust, etc... and of course I do all my own repairs.

This strategy isn't for everyone but it works for someone who has some extra time and enjoys getting their hands dirty. If I were to keep these cars for too long, repairs would start to add up and eventually major parts like the engine and transmission might fail. then you have to ask whether it's worth repairing vs. scrapping the car.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Four Pillars said:


> Is this the 'smug-emitting old car thread'?
> 
> Fine - I'll play.
> 
> 2004 Jeep Liberty. Still works well and very little rust, so hopefully we can keep it for a long time.


LOL but it appears your vehicle is rather new compared to some of the responses in here.


----------



## Four Pillars

My Own Advisor said:


> LOL but it appears your vehicle is rather new compared to some of the responses in here.


Yes, it is. However part of the car age is circumstance/timing. Even if someone buys their cars 5 years old and keeps them for 70 years - there will always be a part of the cycle where they have a relatively new car.

Alternatively, I guess I can look to trade my car in for something older - and pocket the $200 difference in price.


----------



## Cal

2002 Sebring, 11 years old. Bought it used w about 20,000km in Dec. 2002.

Starting to get some decent rust. Have put some $ into it in the past few years, hoping to get another 2 winters out of it.


----------



## Nemo2

When I bought my Model-T I turned to Mr Ford..."Henry.." I said....."I'm hoping to keep this one for a while..."


----------



## Sampson

Four Pillars said:


> Lol - yes, all my bikes are heavy smug polluters for sure.


Well, my bike is from 1990 if you want to compare those stats and it was bought used, probably first sold in 1988.


----------



## HaroldCrump

Sampson said:


> Well, my bike is from 1990 if you want to compare those stats and it was bought used, probably first sold in 1988.


We should start comparing the age of our feet next.
After all, it's a valid mode of transportation.
And quite environment friendly.
Less sm_u_g.


----------



## My Own Advisor

Cool responses. I hope to keep my car for another 4 years. That would make it 17 years. The rust is starting to show more every year though.


----------



## AltaRed

The oldest vehicle I've ever had over the past 45 years was circa 15 years old, keeping vehicles an average of 10 years or so. Virtually all were bought 2-3 years old. However, since about year 1990, I've had the financial luxury to buy new and increasingly more upscale. It all depends on how one wants to spend their money after a lifetime of work. My current ride is a 2007 Infiniti M35X with 156,000km on the clock.... with a current view to keep it another 5 yrs or so and another 100,000+km.

I haven't seen any comments so far on vehicle inspections, either gov't mandated or insurance coverage mandated, for old vehicles. Or do none of the provinces yet require that sort of thing? It is way overdue for Canada to to start mandating mechanical and emissions inspections. Those requirements have been in place to varying degrees in most? US states for many years. During my last expat assignment in Houston, vehicles had to have an annual emissions inspection and a bi-annual mechanical inspection. It has a way of keeping hazardous junk off the road, for your safety and mine.


----------



## Jagas

AltaRed said:


> I haven't seen any comments so far on vehicle inspections, either gov't mandated or insurance coverage mandated, for old vehicles. Or do none of the provinces yet require that sort of thing? It is way overdue for Canada to to start mandating mechanical and emissions inspections. Those requirements have been in place to varying degrees in most? US states for many years. During my last expat assignment in Houston, vehicles had to have an annual emissions inspection and a bi-annual mechanical inspection. It has a way of keeping hazardous junk off the road, for your safety and mine.


Ontario requires emissions inspections through the "Drive Clean" program. This testing is currently changing and I know little about it but think I had been taking my car in every 2 years or so for this test in the most recent years for a 2001 model year vehicle.


----------



## Jungle

Our car is 3 years old and was bought new. It's depreciated 50% from total cost. 
I could have two of the same cars for the money we paid. sigh


----------



## donald

I have a 1976 dodge 1-ton-36 yrs young lol(best 5k investment i have ever made in my life for the payback it has given me 8 yrs going,passes inspection every year).....thing runs better than my 2009 silverado no joke!I hope my truck lasts another 5 yrs--I've already put 125000 kms on it,3 yrs(very hard on it,pull a 7500 lbs tool trailer behind it most days also)Will never buy a gm again though.Very tempted to buy a new truck but i won't----i'm happy to get 6-7 yrs out of a truck before it is completely bagged.


----------



## Ponderling

Jagas said:


> Ontario testing is currently changing.


The auto fleet being tested almost all have on board engine management computers now, so the test is to plug into the computer, and see if it is reporting any sensors that are not operating properly. No longer a mandatory drive on the dynamometer while sniffing the tail pipe. 

The hickup is if you have a bad sensor, that must be fixed, and then it takes the computer a while and a certian number of different driving conditions with some car computers before the thing can re-calibrate itself and report all is good again.

So if you need a drive clean pass to renew your vehicle permit in Ontario, and have a check engine lite showing, get in a few weeks before renewal of more.
There may be delays in getting the needed part installed, and then younneed time for the system to reach equilibrium.


----------



## the_apprentice

My first car was a 5 year lease while I accumulated money. As for my second car, I recently purchased a 2013 Honda Accord. I plan on driving it for many years to come!


----------



## Hawkdog

Jungle said:


> Our car is 3 years old and was bought new. It's depreciated 50% from total cost.
> I could have two of the same cars for the money we paid. sigh


bought a domestic then?
I would guess the apprentice's honda accord won't lose much for awhile, after the the initial hit when he drove it off the lot! Good cars.
Dodge has got to be the worst, unless you bought an early model diesel their value plummets.


----------



## fraser

Bought my wife's car two years ago. It was a four year old Honda Accord with full load. We shopped for two months. 45k on the clock. It was almost half of the price of the new model that we were considering at that time. Two years on it has been a trouble free car. I used to get a new company car every year..a domestic model. Absolutely no comparison in quality of the vehicle or quality of the dealership service.


----------



## Ag Driver

I will keep my vehicle as long as it takes to get the purchase price down to under $1000 per year. For example, $8k vehicle, I will keep for a min of 8 years.
My first car, a 98 Hyundai Elantra, I bought for $2.9k and sold it 6 years later for $500. There for owning is cheaper than a lease given $400/year ($33.33/month).
My second vehicle, a 05 Equinox, I bought for $7.5k. If I drive it until it is valued at $500-$1000 again, I should be looking at buying a new vehicle in 2016/2017. With the vehicle I have now, I would expect closer to the $1000/year ($83.33/month) "lease equivalent".


----------



## houska

Request for advice from someone you guys might consider a heretic -- we're about to replace our 10 year old Subaru Forester with a new one. Probably could make it last a bit longer, but neither of us has the time or knowledge to do our own maintenance and repairs and we want to switch before we need to put major money into it. The 1st year depreciation hit on Subarus is really not that much bigger than subsequent years so buying used is less financially advantageous than for many other cars.

The question: What types of preventative maintenance should one do on a new car to extend its lifespan? We only drive about 11,000 kms/year, but we park outside all winter. And we've historically limited upkeep to recommended regular maintenance schedule, and a vacuuming of the inside and spraying with the hose from the outside when it looks too dirty. We'll never be spend-Sat-morning-polishing-the-car folks, but what else should we do with a view of prolonging our next car's life? Are underchassis sprays worth it? Professional washes/cleans? Something else?


----------



## My Own Advisor

I've never undercoated my car. I run it through the gas station car wash every month when I fill it up in the winter. Run it through maybe a few times in the summer. That's it and works for me. I'm sure others do more than this to prolong their car. I figure 15-years out of a car that cost me $17,000 purchase price is pretty good.


----------



## brad

I've never done undercoating either, in 30 years of driving in cold, snowy climates with lots of salt on the roads. It's never been an issue.


----------



## carverman

rikk said:


> I'm already thinking motorized wheelchair, Harley Twin Cam 88 ... will not be friendly in any way :cool2:


It's doable..but not in a wheelchair though. You can't use a gasoline powered wheelchair on sidewalks, so you would have to contend with today's inattentive drivers. 

Last summer, I saw a disabled vet riding a homemade trike, with a Volkswagen engine. Because he couldn't use his feet to shift/apply the footbrake anymore, he had an automatic
transmission rigged up somehow, so all he had to do was throw it into gear or reverse with a hand shift. It was a two seater, so his wife could ride along with him.
Pretty neat setup..and he does have a wheelchair van for the winter months.


----------



## carverman

houska said:


> The question: What types of preventative maintenance should one do on a new car to extend its lifespan? Are underchassis sprays worth it? Professional washes/cleans? Something else?


It depends on where you live, and how bad the winters are in your vicinity. If the muncipality uses a lot of salt on the roads, corrosion on major body parts, fenders, wheel wheels, brake lines, gas lines, exhaust system will be evident within 5 years. Cars generally do not rust out in summer/spring or fall..*always in the winter months where the metal is wet from road salt*..and as Neil Young's song goes... "Rust never sleeps:, so any exposed metal will be affected over time.

Doing the regular maintenance helps the engine and transmission last longer. At 11,000km per year, the engine and transmission should last 150,000km or more. The big problem is the exposed metal parts, such as brake rotors, brake lines and the general underside of the body. Rust can also form inside the bottom of door panels and windshield pillars from within, so a good oil undercoat helps to prolong the metal parts, but some parts such as bumpers (if metal) or brake lines will still rust out regardless, not only because of salt attaching the lines from outside, but the brake fluid condensation forming water that sits in the brake lines and causes the lines to rust out from within as well with pin hole perforations. 

I had this experience with a 12 year old vehicle where the rear brake lines blew out (in traffic requiring a white knuckle stop when the brake pedal went down almost to the floor),
and the front line blew out a year later. I never changed the brake fluid every 2 years, and over time..the moisture inside worked on the lines. In the end, I was lucky that I managed to stop and avoid a serious accident. As far as I'm concerned, the Dept of Transport should insist on manufacturers putting in stainless steel brake lines on all vehicles, since it's a safety issue, but most manufacturers don't because they expect people to trade their cars in as soon as they are paid off (about every 5 years). 

Keeping a vehicle beyond the warranty period does increase maintenance costs considerably, but the rust is the key factor, so a yearly oil undercoat (including door panels and brake lines)
definitely prolongs those expensive repairs. Some say that washing the underside with a car wash spray helps every month during the winter months, but most months are so cold
that the car wash isn't going to help much on the underside and just make things worse with more moisture applied to the parts underneath..provided you can even get to them
with a spray wand in a coin operated car wash.


----------



## RBull

The longest I've had a car is 11 years. I've owned approx 27 cars. Current daily driver is 2 years old, wife's is 4 years old and my fun car is 6 years old. We're probably going to 2 vehicles in another 18 months or so, keeping the fun car and likely getting 1 new one that we'll keep 7-8 years. I've spent too much on 2 and 4 wheeled machines over the years!

Anything I keep for long gets undercoated and I flush brake fluids every 2-3 years and more on fun car when it goes to the track.


----------



## Sampson

houska said:


> The question: What types of preventative maintenance should one do on a new car to extend its lifespan?


Just follow the manufacturer's recommended service schedule. You could/should have breaks inspected annually for safety, but not much needs to be done outside the info in the manual.


----------



## blin10

dividends always pay for my car lease, so I'm riding brand new all the time.... in this thread it seems like the older the car the better it is :>


----------



## Cal

brad said:


> I've never done undercoating either, in 30 years of driving in cold, snowy climates with lots of salt on the roads. It's never been an issue.


I think I did my car once about 10 years ago, it is now 11 years old. It does have a fair amount of rust now though around the frame, and I did do a $200 repair job to the muffler at one point, other than that, I don't know if the chemical undercoating they do now is really worth it.


----------



## Toronto.gal

'Dividends always pay' for my quarterly free share purchases, so not only do I always have 'new' ones, but they in turn increase my dividends to give me even more free purchasing power the following quarter. Hmmmmmm, what might these new shares be worth 5 years from now, when interest rates will rise and the economy recover? Should be enough to purchase a new car. Sorry blin, could not resist. :biggrin:

No reason why a car, that has generally been well maintained, not last years; mine is 10+ years also, and it runs/looks pretty new still. The newness of a car has little value to me; safety & comfort is all I care about, but I understand that cars are more fun for boys!


----------



## blin10

ok your dividends keep purchasing new shares for years and years... then you're 80 years old with 10million dollars, and they keep purchasing more and more, then you die and they keep purchasing more and more... I couldn't resist as well :>



Toronto.gal said:


> 'Dividends always pay' for my quarterly free share purchases, so not only do I always have 'new' ones, but they in turn increase my dividends to give me even more free purchasing power the following quarter. Hmmmmmm, what might these new shares be worth 5 years from now, when interest rates will rise and the economy recover? Should be enough to purchase a new car. Sorry blin, could not resist. :biggrin:
> 
> No reason why a car, that has generally been well maintained, not last years; mine is 10+ years also, and it runs/looks pretty new still. The newness of a car has little value to me; safety & comfort is all I care about, but I understand that cars are more fun for boys!


----------



## Toronto.gal

I said 5 years, but even in 20 years, I'll be far from 80, though I could be dead, but age is not the point, *preference is!*

Many, like myself, don't mind driving older cars, why can't you understand that? I didn't read the entire thread here, but is anyone criticizing those that drive new/newer cars? OP's question was: 'what is the longest you've owned a car', and posted in the frugal section, so your comment is the one that was out of topic. 

To each his/her own, no? Live and let live, why always the sarcasm as noted on your post #51.


----------



## onomatopoeia

I'm impressed, lots of long lasting cars out there! And by the low amount of km you guys put on your cars. I'd keep my cars more than 4 years, but by that time they are pushing 250000km, and by that time its time for stuff to start breaking regularly.

I buy 2-4 years old...longest I have had a car is 4 years.

Hopefully now that we have moved to a civilized place we wont be putting 30-40k a year on our car (wife did a lot of driving to and from for work), so the 2007 mazda5 with 120km will last another 5+ years.


----------



## carverman

RBull said:


> The longest I've had a car is 11 years. I've owned *approx 27 cars.*
> 
> Anything I keep for long gets undercoated and I flush brake fluids every 2-3 years and more on fun car when it goes to the track.


Wow 27 cars? I've only had 8 in my driving lifetime of 50 years,and only 2 new ones at that.
'53 merc meteor, 55 Chev, (good car but it was barely running..swapped engines), 70 Cougar,71 Pinto, 72 Chev, 78 Pontiac, 85 Chev and my last one was a 98 Dakota, which I just recently
sold last year. 

The older vehicles were a lot simpler and cheaper to repair and keep running. The last one was computer controlled and had a lot of sensors, 3 of which failed on me.
It ate through front brakes and the brake lines (both front and back) rusted out and split in the 12 years of Ottawa winters and salt. Had it oil undercoated when new and oil sprayed
twice.

Still was able to get about $4k for it used. although with tax it cost me $27K(new in 98) and about $5K in repairs/tires/brakes..(the last $3k was in the last 3 years that I owned it)
when everything started to wear out, ball joints, wheel bearings, exhaust, 02 sensors, generator and replacing the brake lines all around..with todays labour rates *$90 an hour + tax,
it cost me more in the last 3 years than what I spent in the first 10 years...for about 5-6K (Km) of driving per year in the last 3 years. It had 105K on it when I sold it.

It would have cost me a lot more than $5k, but until the last 3 years, I was able to do some of the mechanical work myself.
The new vehicles don't last as long as they did 20 years ago. I had over 150k on my 72 Chev/Pontiacs (bought used) with little mechanical repairs, just wear and tear,
although I did experience a split brake line on the 78 Pontiac, that I replaced myself in those days. 

So besides regular oil changes. belts, antifreeze, the 98 Dodge truck cost me $34K in 12 years (105,000 km) or approx $2.83k per year. 
In the last 3 years 2010-2012) that I had it and put approx 16.000km on it at $3000 in repairs. A bit over $1100 per 5,000km of driving. + gas+insurance.

You can't win with vehicles these days, even if you want to keep them so long that you want to literally drive them into the ground.


----------



## Eclectic12

My Own Advisor said:


> ... I'm curious: to the frugal, to the financially free, to everyone, what is the longest you've owned a car?


Last car - 16 years before giving it to my brother (2 more years before a DUI rammed it from behind and totaled it).

2nd last car - 11 years. It probably would have lasted longer if I'd undercoated or washed it each month. Then too, while considering if I wanted to fix the holes in the body, I forget to latch the hood which resulted in it blowing back into the windshield. I didn't want to take on both body work and the bend hood hindges so I decided to buy another one.

3rd last car - 2 years. It was something over 15 years old when it was given to me and I didn't like the looks of the rust under the car so I sold it.


Cheers


----------



## Eclectic12

AltaRed said:


> ... I haven't seen any comments so far on vehicle inspections, either gov't mandated or insurance coverage mandated, for old vehicles.
> 
> Or do none of the provinces yet require that sort of thing? ...


Ontario requires mechanical inspections when buying the car or if a cop decides it might be an issue. There's also the emission test every two years, though if you live in a small enough town - there's no emission test required.

Based on comments by my co-worker, Quebec requires mechanical inspections when buying out of province cars. I don't believe Quebec has an emission inspection but have never confirmed this.


Cheers


----------



## 6811

Eclectic12 said:


> Based on comments by my co-worker, Quebec requires mechanical inspections when buying out of province cars. I don't believe Quebec has an emission inspection but have never confirmed this.
> 
> 
> So far there's no emissions inspections in Quebec.
> 
> I agree with Carverman on the need for undercoating in the Ottawa/Gatineau region. The City of Ottawa uses liquid calcium mixed with road salt on the roads and that stuff is incredibly corrosive.
> 
> In 45 years of driving I've owned 3 motorcycles (before I turned 25) and 7 cars. Of the cars, the first one was stolen (a 1970 MGB bought new), a used 1974 VEGA (lasted 3 years, what a piece of Cr.p), the next four I kept between 10 and 12 years (77 Mustang II, 85 Ford Tempo, 93 Chevy Lumina, 02 Sunfire). Currently drive a 2012 Impala.


----------



## lonewolf

I think electronic rust control offers better bang for the buck then paying for an oil treatment that helps prevent rusting every year.


----------



## Sherlock

I think I read somewhere that electronic rust control is not nearly as effective as advertised.

I drive a 9 year old car which I bought (in cash) when it was 4 years old. IIRC I paid around 19k for it, and I estimate its value now at about 8k. So 19k - 8k divided by 5 years that's about $2200 a year I've eaten in depreciation. A lot less than what someone pays to finance or lease. I'm slowly looking for a replacement but there's no hurry as it still runs great. In fact I just went into a used car dealer a few weekends ago to trade in my car for a newer one, but he offered me a ridiculously low amount for mine while refusing to budge on his, so I walked. His loss, I was willing to do the trade for fair market value.

I prefer to drive more powerful and comfortable vehicles, and consider the premium over a compact well worth it. I want something that pulls strongly when I mash the gas on the highway, not some 4 banger that runs out of breath at 120km/h.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

My current vehicle cost me $600, 3 years ago. It is a 2000 Ford Windstar minivan. It had 124000 KM on it when I bought it and I expect to drive it a few more years. Repairs and a safety brought the cost up to $1000. Amortize that over 10 years.

I think the one I drove longest was a 1971 Dodge slant six pickup also bought for $600, in 1992. I drove it for 11 years and only got rid of it because the body rotted off. After that I switched to Dodge minivans. One went to 245000 before it died, another went 360000. A third caught fire and burned up in the driveway. Forget what it had on for kms.

There are some good deals out there if you keep your eyes open and aren't in a hurry. I know driving such cheap vehicles isn't for everybody but it works for me.


----------



## Sampson

carverman said:


> '53 merc meteor, 55 Chev,


nice!


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I also have a 1974 Porsche 911 and a 1968 Triumph motorcycle that I bought in 1972. Plus a 1992 pickup truck for rough work. And a few other toys. None of them cost a lot of money when I bought them. For everyday transportation I look for older, 1 owner, low mile vehicles that can be bought reasonable. Then maintain them by the book and drive them until they need major work (over $500). Later model cars will go a surprisingly long time if you maintain them but if anything breaks, you have nothing to work with.


----------



## carverman

lonewolf said:


> I think electronic rust control offers better bang for the buck then paying for an oil treatment that helps prevent rusting every year.


Explain how that works on a vehicle that has 4 rubber tires that are insulators to the ground?

The device is a electronic box that connects to the body of the car. In order for it to work, there has to be an anode connection and a cathode connection.
There has to be a current flow between the two through the body and a sacrificial anode for electron transfer to protect the metal body. 

The electrical potential between the anode and cathode has to be somewhere between 0.85v and 1.2 volts and the metal in the sacrificial anode has to be of a type
that corrodes, in order to give up free electrons to the iron body. This NOT going to happen with the device mounted on a firewall and between the negative and positive
terminals of the car battery.

Also You can't do that on a body that has metal and ZERO ohms RESISTANCE, because that is basically an electrical short circuit!
On a ship, these do work, because the ship is in salt water that acts as a conductor.

see below for more detailed explaination of CATHODIC PROTECTION 
http://corrosion-doctors.org/Car/car-electronic-rust.htm

here is a testimony from body repair man..



> Seem to make your car rust faster
> February 8, 2013
> "Being a body man and a mechanic, I wanted to see if this stuff work and had it installed a year ago when there was very little rust under neath, now a year later, I could not believe how fast the rust had accelarated under the car body. So i figure this is a dealer reccomended product so they can sell more car in the future. Anything with a electrical connection that is expose to salt and oxygen will corrode at a faster rate like bare copper wire and positive connection on battery post. So what it was actually doing on the expose metal under your car is rusting faster. Most people don't look under their car but just the outside where it is protected already. It work great if it was under water where there is no oxygen. So this is why this theory was never proven to be effective, just a gimmick to a miracle solution which will never beat a good washing and a regular oil spray under the car.
> I wouldn't even give it away just throw it in the garbage."


A regular oil spray, provided the metal is sprayed BEFORE the salt water has had a chance to work on the metal parts is the proven method. Oil does wash off over the course of the year
from rain puddles and mist from the highway, so it is advisable to have the oil spray repeated once a year..or at least every 2 years. Anything else is just an expensive gimmick and you
are fooled into wasting your money on these gimmicks.


----------



## carverman

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Then maintain them by the book and drive them until they need major work (over $500). Later model cars will go a surprisingly long time if you maintain them but if anything breaks, you have nothing to work with.


I tried to maintain my last one which was a Dodge truck. In the last 10 years of ownership, both bumpers had rust holes in them, all the brake lines rusted out, but the body at the time when I sold it last year had no rust holes nor the door panels because I undercoated it with oil spray when I bought it new, and about every 3 years afterwards. 

The metal they use on these new vehicles (at least Chrysler) is recycled steel with a lots of impurities which cause the metal to rust faster if exposed to salt water.
The metal used is a lot thinner, including the bumpers. Although the power train may last for hundreds of thousands, it's the little things that go on them like sensors.
With computer controlled engines/drive train, if you have an intermittent sensor, not only will the engine stall.misbehave but you can loose transmission shifting and in the Dodges..the electronic speedometer.
The problem these days is the not so much the cost of the parts..but the labour cost which is now approaching $100 an hour + taxes. Even a brake job can cost several hundred dollars..no wonder owners are trading them in rather than have to deal with major repairs. Ford was even offering $3000 on a trade-in under their "Recycle Your Ride" program.


----------



## RBull

carverman said:


> Explain how that works on a vehicle that has 4 rubber tires that are insulators to the ground?
> 
> The device is a electronic box that connects to the body of the car. In order for it to work, there has to be an anode connection and a cathode connection.
> There has to be a current flow between the two through the body and a sacrificial anode for electron transfer to protect the metal body.
> 
> The electrical potential between the anode and cathode has to be somewhere between 0.85v and 1.2 volts and the metal in the sacrificial anode has to be of a type
> that corrodes, in order to give up free electrons to the iron body. This NOT going to happen with the device mounted on a firewall and between the negative and positive
> terminals of the car battery.
> 
> Also You can't do that on a body that has metal and ZERO ohms RESISTANCE, because that is basically an electrical short circuit!
> On a ship, these do work, because the ship is in salt water that acts as a conductor.
> 
> see below for more detailed explaination of CATHODIC PROTECTION
> http://corrosion-doctors.org/Car/car-electronic-rust.htm
> 
> here is a testimony from body repair man..
> 
> 
> 
> A regular oil spray, provided the metal is sprayed BEFORE the salt water has had a chance to work on the metal parts is the proven method. Oil does wash off over the course of the year
> from rain puddles and mist from the highway, so it is advisable to have the oil spray repeated once a year..or at least every 2 years. Anything else is just an expensive gimmick and you
> are fooled into wasting your money on these gimmicks.


Thanks for the science on it. I'm on the East Coast. If you want a vehicle to last around here undercoating is important. Especially since we keep ours in the garage in the winter which accelerates the deterioration through freeze/thaw.


----------



## carverman

RBull said:


> If you want a vehicle to last around here undercoating is important. Especially since we keep ours in the garage in the winter which accelerates the deterioration through freeze/thaw.


Some of the vehicles out there are "rust belt" production, others have metal parts dipped in zinc primer, which helps the panels from rusting from within. 

While you can wash the outside of the vehicle in the winter months through an automatic car wash or even a hand spray booth, you really cant get into the crevices and cracks where the road salt accumulates. Warmer temperature accelerates the rusting process because the accumulated slush and ice that freezes to the bottom and fender wells, starts to melt.
It's the oxygen in the air that causes the rusting process..metal (if not protected) will oxidize....and for cars made out of metal, it becomes iron oxide..those nasty rusty spots that cause the metal underneath to become pitted, thin and eventually a big hole.


----------



## Calgary_Girl

We tend to buy brand new but then drive them for a minimum of 10 years (preferably longer). Luckily, we don't drive long distances or take many road trips so our cars tend to last pretty long. Hubby's 2001 Toyota 4Runner only has 130,000 Km on it and my 2009 Honda Odyssey only has 40,000 Km. On average, we only put on 10,000 Km/year :biggrin:


----------



## mind_business

We currently are a single-car family (2005 Toyota Matrix). We are planning to keep it until at least 2015 ... or longer. We typically drive around 20,000 km per year. We'll likely be buying a second car sooner, rather than later, for work purposes. The Matrix will be our all-purpose utility / dog vehicle.


----------



## Plugging Along

Wow, is our family milage ever high. We are a three vehicle family.

Both my spouse and I get about 15k on each of our cars to get to work and for weekends with the kids. We do do monthly road trips each month on the main family vehicle.

The car that is the nannies car, puts about 40k. 8k is for toting the kids to and from school and activities, and the rest is her personal use. She drives Alot. 

Our cars are a combo of new and used. The car which we allow the nanny to use was bought new in 2000, and she has been mainly driving it since 2011. We want that one to last another 6 years. It currently has just over 200k.

My vehicle was bought in the US new in 2007, and we imagine we will have it until it dies, I imagine another 10 years. 

My spouses vehicle was purchased used from the US in 2010, it was an 2003. We will replace it next year as it no longer meets the needs of the business it was purchased for. 

We used to buy used my, now we are staring to lean towards used.


----------



## Plugging Along

blin10 said:


> dividends always pay for my car lease, so I'm riding brand new all the time.... in this thread it seems like the older the car the better it is :>


I don't understand the relevance of this statement. U less you are saying you have invested with the sole intent to have your dividends pay for your leased car? Isn't there an opportunity to cost to this statement. It is not that your car is free, it is merely that you are choosing to divert you dividend income to the car.

Unless your work is paying for your car or some gives you a car, then it is pretty much always an expense. 

I don't think it can be argued that older cars are more frugal than new cars.


----------



## Eclectic12

carverman said:


> I tried to maintain my last one which was a Dodge truck.
> 
> In the last 10 years of ownership, both bumpers had rust holes in them, all the brake lines rusted out, but the body at the time ...


My sympathies ... 




carverman said:


> ... The problem these days is the not so much the cost of the parts..but the labour cost which is now approaching $100 an hour + taxes. Even a brake job can cost several hundred dollars..no wonder owners are trading them in rather than have to deal with major repairs. Ford was even offering $3000 on a trade-in under their "Recycle Your Ride" program.


True ... though I'm not sure the relevance of Ford's "Recycle Your Ride" program is. 

When I looked at it in 2009, my 16 year old car qualified by a whopping two years. If the car has maintenance problems in the first place - shelling out to fix it until one hits the fourteen year old age could cost a fortune. 

Never mind that my car qualified for a $1K trade-in value - which was more easily achieved by being a Costco member.


Cheers


----------



## RBull

Thanks. Pretty familiar with what you're saying. Been a car guy all my life and owner of a detailing shop for years. My area is the environmental testing area for 1 major auto manufacturer due to harsh climate. 

Trouble with cars is you never know exactly what you're getting when you buy. All auto metals aren't equal and you don't know always know about use of zinc primer (pretty common today though)



carverman said:


> Some of the vehicles out there are "rust belt" production, others have metal parts dipped in zinc primer, which helps the panels from rusting from within.
> 
> While you can wash the outside of the vehicle in the winter months through an automatic car wash or even a hand spray booth, you really cant get into the crevices and cracks where the road salt accumulates. Warmer temperature accelerates the rusting process because the accumulated slush and ice that freezes to the bottom and fender wells, starts to melt.
> It's the oxygen in the air that causes the rusting process..metal (if not protected) will oxidize....and for cars made out of metal, it becomes iron oxide..those nasty rusty spots that cause the metal underneath to become pitted, thin and eventually a big hole.


----------



## carverman

Eclectic12 said:


> My sympathies ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True ... though I'm not sure the relevance of Ford's "Recycle Your Ride" program is.


http://www.collisionrepairmag.com/news/recycling/15480-fords-recycle-your-ride-program-returns
Ford is reaching out over their competition for your business. You can get anywhere from $500 (which is pretty much the standard for your 10 year+ junker anywhere to up to $3000 for a 
"it would be a 5 year old Ford model that is still re-sale able by the Ford "store" , where it can be safety certified, or sold wholesale to others.

Scrap metal has gone up in price in recent years.($250 a ton), but due to environment restrictions, the scrap yard, has to remove environmental hazards first, like draining the oils, rads, 
removing batteries, (not sure about glass parts) and other things which may be hazardous to the environment (even inside the confines of the scrapyard) before the vehicle is sent to the crusher.
So the scrap yard can make extra money from selling used oil, batteries and any other parts which are still sale able..like the tires. 





> Never mind that my car qualified for a $1K trade-in value - which was more easily achieved by being a Costco member.


Of course Ford is expecting more business for them with the Costco "sweetheart deal". 

Besides the customary $500 "recycle tradein' expected, you get another $1000 incentive, if you finally had enough of the old 15 yr rust bucket in your driveway,
leaking oil on the asphalt, rust everywhere and that "check engine light" coming on each time you start it.

Even if you are frugal and expect to keep it until it requires some major repair that exceeds it's current value ($500 for scrap metal), there is a point of no return eventually,
especially if you drive it in the Canadian winters on roads sprinkled generously with salt.

Putting in another $500 of repairs (and that's a small repair at that!) to keep it going doesn't make any financial sense..no matter how frugal you are..because like a 
sick horse..(even with vet visits)...eventually..you have to take it behind the barn and shoot it..like Kevin O'Leary says to some of the Dragon's Den pitching hopefuls. :biggrin:


----------



## fraser

I had a new Ford company car every year for six years. They ranged from a Lincoln to an Escape.

During this period I had a little too much experience in dealing with warranty work and Ford dealer service departments.

I will pass on any incentives on their products.


----------



## Eclectic12

carverman said:


> ... Ford is reaching out over their competition for your business. You can get anywhere from $500 (which is pretty much the standard for your 10 year+ junker anywhere ...


I understand how the program can be beneficial.

You seemed to be saying that 10 years was too long to keep a car, based on the maintenance costs experienced and Ford's program was a way to move into a new car in under 10 years to avoid the mounting costs.

Unless they have changed the program - my question was how does waiting 14 years to qualify for the program going to help get one into a new car in under 10 years? 

If the maintenance is really bad in year six, the timing does not seem to work out.




carverman said:


> ... Of course Ford is expecting more business for them with the Costco "sweetheart deal ...


My point is that the Costco deal is available well before the car with maintenance problems is 14 years old. It seems like a far better option than paying for the maintenance until the Recycle Your Ride eligibility kicks in. 

Sure - one would lose half or more of the total discounts ($1K for membership and $1K for Recycle Your Ride in my case) but if the car is truly a maintenance pig, even a full $3K eligibility can be eaten up during the time waiting for the car to old enough to qualify.


Cheers


----------



## hystat

fraser said:


> During this period I had a little too much experience in dealing with warranty work and Ford dealer service departments.


My experience with Ford dealers sucked too. But so does every other brand. 
Incompetence and "lip" from these commissioned "service advisors" is really rampant in the auto business but especially in a dealership. They know nothing but think they are experts. 
I'd rather buy a car out of warranty and take it to a shop that has the good techs. 
The best techs are not at the dealerships in my town. They are at a CAA approved shops or even the Canadian Tire here has a pretty decent team. I hear that is an exception to the usual CTC rule though.


----------



## carverman

Eclectic12 said:


> Unless they have changed the program - my question was how does waiting 14 years to qualify for the program going to help get one into a new car in under 10 years?
> 
> If the maintenance is really bad in year six, the timing does not seem to work out.


You have to keep a ledger on each vehicle to determine the yearly cost. Gasoline, oil changes, tires, brakes and any other wear and tear items. Most vehicles should last 5 years + before any major
maintenance costs are incurred..but this also depends on the mileage put on each year and the whether the vehicle is a daily driver, exposed to road salt in the winter. There are no hard numbers
that you can use..each vehicle, it's cost to you + repairs and gas has to be added up and then divided by 12 months to determine the monthly cost, and whether it's still economically viable to keep
it after 5 years, 6 years or 10 years. When the cost of the vehicle after 5 years (assuming it's paid off in 5 years or less) cost more in maintenance (not wear and tear items) than trading it in,
on a new model, you have to ask yourself if it's still worth keeping it. Assuming you are not attached to it because of nostalgia.


> My point is that the Costco deal is available well before the car with maintenance problems is 14 years old. It seems like a far better option than paying for the maintenance until the Recycle Your Ride eligibility kicks in.


It may be true in some cases. You also have the option to sell it privately (after a mechanical inspection to make sure it meets all the safety standards of a resale vehicle. But this all depends on what
repairs are necessary and the final cost of those repairs. For example, if it costs $2000 in parts and labour ($113 an hour) to bring your 10 year old vehicle up to certfied safety standards and you get
$2500 for that vehicle , you are ahead by $500 in that game. But if it's going to cost $2000 in repairs for a vehicle that may only be worth $2000 on the resale market, and buyers expect a better deal
buying privately for cash, you may be out a couple hundred dollars in selling your vehicle privately..is it worth it vs taking it to dealer and getting $500 or more for it? Depends on the deal your get.
All these factors have to be included to make the final decision. 

Also with the price of gas going up every year, you have to ask yourself if that 10 year old gas guzzler is still worth keeping compared to a more fuel efficient new vehicle. 



> Sure - one would lose half or more of the total discounts (*$1K for membership *and $1K for Recycle Your Ride in my case) but if the car is truly a maintenance pig, even a full $3K eligibility can be eaten up during the time waiting for the car to old enough to qualify.


$1k for Costco membership? You can get the $1.000 deal from Ford on a regular Costco membership for around $50, I believe. You have to do the math to find out the real cost of ownership and if
it's still worth it to you.


----------



## fraser

I won't even buy a can of oil from Canadian Tire.

My comparator for my experiences with new Ford products and with Ford dealerships is Toyota and my service experience Toyota dealerships. There was absolutely no comparison in the quality of the Toyota product and quality of service to that of Ford and the Ford dealership that I dealt with. Now, perhaps Ford has improved their products and the service in their stores over the past two years. I would not know.

I get a chuckle when I see those new Lincoln ads that basically say sorry for the crap cars and crap service of the past.....but we are now the 'new' Lincoln company, the bad old days are gone...trust us. Thanks, but no thanks


----------



## Sherlock

hystat said:


> My experience with Ford dealers sucked too. But so does every other brand.
> Incompetence and "lip" from these commissioned "service advisors" is really rampant in the auto business but especially in a dealership. They know nothing but think they are experts.
> I'd rather buy a car out of warranty and take it to a shop that has the good techs.
> The best techs are not at the dealerships in my town. They are at a CAA approved shops or even the Canadian Tire here has a pretty decent team. I hear that is an exception to the usual CTC rule though.


In my experience it varies by dealership, not by make. The acura dealership in kitchener (fairview) was amazing. Very professional and polite, and never had any problems with them. I tried three different dealerships in the GTA and all sucked by comparison.


----------



## bayview

houska said:


> Request for advice from someone you guys might consider a heretic -- we're about to replace our 10 year old Subaru Forester with a new one. Probably could make it last a bit longer, but neither of us has the time or knowledge to do our own maintenance and repairs and we want to switch before we need to put major money into it. The 1st year depreciation hit on Subarus is really not that much bigger than subsequent years so buying used is less financially advantageous than for many other cars.
> 
> The question: What types of preventative maintenance should one do on a new car to extend its lifespan? We only drive about 11,000 kms/year, but we park outside all winter. And we've historically limited upkeep to recommended regular maintenance schedule, and a vacuuming of the inside and spraying with the hose from the outside when it looks too dirty. We'll never be spend-Sat-morning-polishing-the-car folks, but what else should we do with a view of prolonging our next car's life? Are underchassis sprays worth it? Professional washes/cleans? Something else?


Here is how one run his car for 800k km for 30 years.

Do drivers here think synthetic oil is beneficial?


----------



## Sherlock

Synthetic is good if you run it from the start. If you suddenly start using synthetic on an old car that's been using dino oil until now, it could cause problems, is what I heard.


----------



## carverman

bayview said:


> Here is how one run his car for 800k km for 30 years.
> 
> Do drivers here think synthetic oil is beneficial?


Synthetic oil is beneficial from the point that it is thinner and less drag on the engines internal parts, piston rings. Depending on the engine design and tolerances, it may be better or
it may not make any difference in the long run. Lubricating oil gets exposed to heat in the combustion cylinder walls, and that turns into carbon, since oil is a carbon based product.
The oil control rings on each piston scrape the oil that is splashed onto each cylinder wall along with any burned oil (carbon) at the top of the cylinder at TDC (top dead center) of the
piston travel where combustion occurs.

That is what turns the oil black. The oil filter helps to trap any large carbon particles and any metal shavings given off by the engine over the course of it's useful lifetime.
On "Dino oils" (dinasaur/crude oil derived) the recommended change interval is around 5000km. You can certainly run longer than 5000km, as oil technically does not wear out,
but gets dirty from carbon and acids formed during combustion.

Running on synthethic oil, other than longer change intervals because the oil is less prone to heat breakdown, easier cold weather starts and a tiny bit of improvement in gas mileage (and this one is
harder to prove) is basically the reason to switch to synthetics. However..you cannot use thinner oils or synthetics in engines with a fair amount of wear on them, because the oil pan seals and
valve seals will leak more oil. 



> Synthetics have also been shown to produce less resistance in the engine and therefore offer more horsepower and overall efficiency for the engine. This added horsepower in return means that the engine will be able to perform at the same level as before, but using slightly less gas.
> Depending on where you drive (dusty, dirty climates), and how much and far you drive (shorter distances don't heat oil enough to boil off condensation in the engine), you can probably last between oil changes for 10,000, 15,000, on up to 20,000 miles with some brands of synthetic.


http://www.howstuffworks.com/synthetic-conventional-motor-oil.htm


About the 1982 Volvo 244. Yes those were great cars and with proper maintenance in a relatively rust free environment, they could last 40 years (800K/40yrs = 20,000km per year.
However, inspite of Volvo's great reputation, there are not too many Volvo cars around from that era today. 

The big difference from cars of that era and today's cars, is that the 80s cars were much simpler in design... and virtually no electronic sensors or computers to cause trouble for the owner.

Today, most vehicles use an array of engine management sensors that monitor emissions, perform engine timing or check engine functions and if one of those starts acting up,
stalling etc in traffic, it can lead to severe owner frustration, expensive tow calls, and expensive repairs..all because of some $20 to $70 dollar sensor that monitors ABS braking,
engine management, charging the battery, climate control inside the car, or other functions..keyless entry etc. 

Here's a CBC Marketplace segment on a new Chrysler "car from hell"
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/10/04/f-lemon-cars-marketplace-law.html


----------



## hystat

fraser said:


> I get a chuckle when I see those new Lincoln ads that basically say sorry for the crap cars and crap service of the past.....but we are now the 'new' Lincoln company, the bad old days are gone...trust us. Thanks, but no thanks


I have seen that commercial and i always think "man those 90's Lincolns were nice looking cars"
complete backfire ad if they are targeting me. 
The new car they show looks dumb to me.


----------



## Sampson

Carve's response on the synthetic oil is pretty spot on.

Long change intervals is one of the top reasons. It really depends on how you drive your vehicle too. After 3 months or so, with short trips from city driving, the incomplete combustion due to a cold engine will foul the oil quickly.

If however, you are driving highway only, no stop and go, and your engine operates at full temperature most of the time, you can easily get 12,000 and upwards of 20,000 km on a single oil change, but only within the 3-4 month window.

Whatever type of oil you use, it should be changed regularly (3-4 months) and the only way to really know if the change interval you are using is adequate is to run an oil analysis. Metals from your engine will be released during wear into the oil and this can be analyzed to determine whether you have low, normal or excessive engine wear due to poor lubrication.

Since I change my oil myself, buy it cheap from the US, I only run full synthetic (well, Class III) in my newer vehicle. As cheap as filling with Dino purchased here and changed DIY.


----------



## carverman

Sampson said:


> After 3 months or so, with *short trips from city driving*, the incomplete combustion due to a cold engine will foul the oil quickly.


This is the crux of city driving, especially in the -10 to -20C winter months. The engine doesn't get warmed up or just barely in a short commute to work or shopping. A cold engine creates condensation
inside because in the winter the air has more moisture in it and condenses on all engine parts inside and out. Oil and water don't mix..that was proven big time in the Gulf BP oil spill a couple of years ago.
That oil spill was never completely cleaned up and will remain in the wildlife habitat marshes of Louisiana for many many years from now.

Ok..back to condensation in your engine. Normally once an engine reaches operating temperature and the oil is warmed up, it circulates around all the vital parts of the engine where wear and tear happens.
Pistons and piston rings, bearings especially. If there is a lot of condensed water, that forms a brownish sludge..which doesn't have great lubricating properties and that accelerates engine wear..unless
the oil is changed more frequently. In case of dino based oils, severe winter conditions means more frequent changes...every 2000-3000km instead of every 5000..if you still want the same protection
from your oil..that will also affect synthetics to some degree as well. 

see second opinon on oil sludge:
http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm



> If however, you are driving highway only, no stop and go, and your engine operates at full temperature most of the time, you can easily get 12,000 and upwards of 20,000 km on a single oil change, but only within the 3-4 month window.


The important thing is to get the engine up to its thermostatic operating temperature to boil off any accumulated condensation.



> Whatever type of oil you use, it should be changed regularly (3-4 months) and the only way to really know if the change interval you are using is adequate is to run an oil analysis. Metals from your engine will be released during wear into the oil and this can be analyzed to determine whether you have low, normal or excessive engine wear due to poor lubrication.


The same for your automatic transmission which is just as complicated as your engine. As long as it's still shifting, most people will ignore the fluid change/filter and any required maintenance because
of the higher costs associated with transmission oil changes.


----------



## Eclectic12

carverman said:


> You have to keep a ledger on each vehicle to determine the yearly cost....There are no hard numbers that you can use...


*shrug* - It seemed to your suggestion that with regular maintenance, it was tough to avoid significant repairs in under ten years.

Personally, I really only pay attention to the significant repairs in the ledger as I've got to buy gas, tires, oil changes etc. on a regular basis - whether it's a newer car or older one. So unless the price for those items or the frequency changes dramatically, IMO they are not relevant. 

After all, if the tire prices have gone up say 15% in four years and one switches over to a newer car that is has tire pressure monitoring so that changing tires goes from $40 to $135, the end result could be much different than the anticipated "savings" of a newer car.




carverman said:


> Also with the price of gas going up every year, you have to ask yourself if that 10 year old gas guzzler is still worth keeping compared to a more fuel efficient new vehicle.


The 16 year old car was regularly being clocked at 48 mpg on the 401 whereas the new model was rated at 46 mpg so I didn't have a lot of incentive to change based on gas.




carverman said:


> Eclectic12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... one would lose half or more of the total discounts ($1K for membership and $1K for Recycle Your Ride in my case)...
> 
> 
> 
> $1k for Costco membership? You can get the $1.000 deal from Ford on a regular Costco membership for around $50, I believe...
Click to expand...

I would thought that the wording leading up to the brackets clearly indicates I'm talking about discounts. The parts in the brackets are spelling out how much each discount was from each source.

Or are you also thinking there's a $1K cost to pay to get Ford's Recycle Your Ride discount?


Cheers


----------



## carverman

Eclectic12 said:


> Or are you also thinking there's a $1K cost to pay to get Ford's Recycle Your Ride discount?
> Cheers


You can't go by manufacturers incentives nor Costco (buy Ford ) incentives out there. You have to factor in true costs for the entire life of the vehicle. For most people, it's just too much accounting.
If you have a reasonably safe and reliable 10 yr+ clunker, and it's paid for, all you need to consider is the yearly maintenance cost + the gas consumption (V8 vs V6 vs 4 cylinder) and the cost of driving for each km for that year. 

This should also include insurance premiums. If you add all those numbers together for a year, and then divide by the number of kilometers travelled in that vehicle, you should arrive at a true cost
of (still) operating it.

Then to make an more accurate comparison (keeping the old vehicle vs trading it in on a new model) ..(outside the dealer showroom), you need to consider:
1) Final cost of the vehicle, after any incentives + 13% sales tax + financing charges... (if not paid in full)
and
gas economy, and the number of years you plan on keeping it.

As an illustration: $35K with taxes included /10 years is $3.5K per year (roughly) . + add finance charges on that... (3% on 30K over 60 months) around $900+
Now if it comes with a 100k km warranty...number of km per year driven/5 years = true cost per year.

If you drive 10K per year..the time limit will expire before the manufacturers warranty (100km)..so it will cost you more in maitenance after the warranty expires.
If you drive 20K per year..the mileage and time limit will expire within the warranty limit..so any repairs are going to cost you after that..assuming you can convince the dealer/manufacturer that it should be covered under the warranty. Sometimes it's a fight in a "gray zone area" such as electrical sensors and other things which are considered wear and tear.


----------



## Cal

I did a little calculation on my last tank of gas.

Essentially I ended up getting 12L/100km of my 11 year old sebring. That had both city and hwy driving during that period. (or 19mpg)

I compared what the stated new car mileage was with the hyundai website, accent city 7.1L/100km, hwy 5.3L/100km, the elantra gt was city 7.8L/100km, hwy 5.3L/100km, and the veloster (probably closer in size to my sebring) was city 7.5L/100km, hwy 5.3L/100km.

Considering that I drive roughly 18,000km per year, I calculated that I buy roughly 810-900L extra in fuel than if I had one of these new vehicles (although my bank account has an extra 15-20,000 by not buying a new vehicle), which would translate into roughly $1012-$1125 extra in fuel costs by driving the older car.

FYI I would never consider actually buying a new car, new used would be more my preference.


----------



## Sampson

Cal said:


> I compared what the stated new car mileage was with the hyundai website, accent city 7.1L/100km, hwy 5.3L/100km, the elantra gt was city 7.8L/100km, hwy 5.3L/100km, and the veloster (probably closer in size to my sebring) was city 7.5L/100km, hwy 5.3L/100km.


You mean those mileage claims that Hyundai inflated (deflated, and are paying out for?). Your comparison also isn't fair in the old vs new debate since these are different size and classes of cars.


----------



## carverman

Cal said:


> Considering that I drive roughly 18,000km per year, I calculated that I buy roughly 810-900L extra in fuel than if I had one of these new vehicles (although my bank account has an extra 15-20,000 by not buying a new vehicle), which would translate into roughly $1012-$1125 extra in fuel costs by driving the older car.


That calculation is based on reg gas being (roughly) $1.25 per liter. ($1125 spent extra over a more fuel efficient 4 cylinder). If that's all it costs you then, yes you are ahead of the game.
But with the cost of fuel rising in the next 5 years to..$1.50-$1.60 a liter ($1440) and assuming no wear and tear repairs...tires, brakes, would it still be economical to own a 15 yr old Sebring in 5 years time?


----------



## Sampson

Carve, none of your calculations have included the capital cost of the vehicle replacement. This will be by far the largest expense and clearly higher on a new (or used, new to you) vehicle compared to a vehicle you already own.


----------



## Cal

Carverman, that is pretty what I was thinking, at a certain point, it doesn't really make much sense to put more $ in to keeping the car on the road, those dollars would be best used towards a newer, used car.

Sampson, the veloster and the sebring are probably about the same size, although I believe the sebring would weigh more.

The sebring runs pretty good for now, minus a very slight oil leak, but there comes a certain point where it doesn't make sense to put more money into it. Considering it is a 11 year old car, I think the fuel consumption is fair, but it does have to be a factor when considering trading in, even if the calculations are a rough estimate.


----------



## carverman

Sampson said:


> Carve, none of your calculations have included the capital cost of the vehicle replacement. This will be by far the largest expense and clearly higher on a new (or used, new to you) vehicle compared to a vehicle you already own.


It all depends on:
How reliable your current vehicle is and what is the actual cost of repairs + wear and tear items you put into it each year = real cost per km travelled.
When buying a new vehicle, you are also facing a huge depreciation in the first year of ownership..up to 25% in some cases. On a $35K car that's $8,750 you will LOSE in depreciated value (or money in the bank as you prefer)
However, in the first year, the manufacturers warranty covers pretty much everything except the wear and tear items..so other than gas, oil changes and insurance...(which you can factor out because your
used car also requires this), the real loss is not as much as $8750, because you plan on keeping it for a few years.

So in year 2, 3, and so on..that depreciation can be far less on some sliding scale, but the car is basically trouble free, so you save on mechanical repairs. 

So lets say, you found a reliable car (bought new for $35,000 including taxes) and have kept it for 15 years..that is a long time. That car (minus gasoline has cost you $2,333 in "lost money" where you cannot invest it,
but at the same time provided 15 years of reliable service, (except wear and tear items that need to be replaced periodically) for 15,000Km per year or 225k km by year 15.
Assuming you get nothing for it in year 15 except maybe $500 on a trade-in..that car has cost you $35,000 + repairs/wear and tear

The used car (assuming bought used as a 5 year old model for $12-14K, will cost $14,000 + taxes ($1820) or around $14K-16K...but being used, the manufacturers warranty is already expired, so you might have to put in for some expensive repairs + normal wear and tear items...say $1K per year.
For 10 years of ownership = $10k repairs + $16K (purchase) = $26K....so in reality, you have only saved the first years depreciation on it ..about $9k.

Either way you can consider this as a real loss in terms of money "sitting in the bank"...you either pay up front....or you pay over the years, in repairs.


----------



## Eclectic12

carverman said:


> You can't go by manufacturers incentives nor Costco (buy Ford ) incentives out there.
> You have to factor in true costs for the entire life of the vehicle.


IMO, the incentives only come into play after the repairs/running costs ledger indicates that a new or newer car is viable.

To me, it does not seem to be an accurate comparison of old to new to include insurance premiums in the old and ignore them in the new. This is especially true where due to some long trips I take, I upgraded to a slightly larger car with an increased insurance premium.


Cheers


----------



## Retired Peasant

Eclectic12 said:


> Ontario requires mechanical inspections when buying the car or if a cop decides it might be an issue. There's also the emission test every two years, though if you live in a small enough town - there's no emission test required.


We kept a Ford F150 for 19 years. If your vehicle is > 20, you don't have to do the emission test. We didn't think it'd pass the test, so we sold it on Kijiji.

We generally drive a vehicle til it dies. Our latest was a new Suzuki SX4 in 2010. I love this vehicle. Suzuki is pulling out of Canada, so we're worried about getting parts/service. It might be OK for a few years, but it doesn't look like we'll be driving this one as long as we planned.:hopelessness:


----------



## fraser

My car is 16 years old. I like it. I hope to drive it for a few more years at least or if we go down to one car pass it on to a child. 

I would much prefer to put in $700-$1000. per year on maintenance than I would to incur the depreciation, loss of opportunity on money, and the increased costs of insurance. Not to mention the GST and other taxes imposed on a new vehicle purchase. This year it will be a timing belt and water pump replacement.

I seem to recall a Consumer Reports article about the best strategy for vehicle replacement. As I recall, it was buy 2-3 years old, keep it for 10 years, and avoid some of the junk manufactured by domestic nameplates.


----------



## Sherlock

CR has always been biased against american cars.


----------



## fraser

After driving a new american nameplate car/SUV every year for six years for business I can understand why CR is biased.

I went back and looked at the comments for three of them......they were spot on for their report of major issues such as transmission, power steering, control module, etc. for various model years that I had.


----------



## m3s

In countries where the mechanics still actually fix things instead of just replace parts, many drive the cars the 1st-world-frugals gave up on decades ago. Actually they highly prefer the older cars. Much easier to fix and cheaper to source parts for etc. There are certain models that are far more prevalent and it's most often Japanese or European. Some of the old Jeeps and GMs are pretty reliable as well


----------



## crazyjackcsa

Working on cars: A brief synopsis of my weekend.

I decided today was the day I was going to install the temp gauge.

Bought one yesterday. $20. 

Turns out it's mechanical, not electrical. No problem. Just have to find a hole big enough in the firewall to put the sending unit through.

Wouldn't you know it, the hole for the speedometer cable looks perfect. Turns out it is perfect. Except there is a cable in the way. So I decide it won't be a big deal to pull the cable, slide the sending unit in, and put the cable back.

I was wrong. Out comes the dash, out comes most of the instrument cluster. Pull the cable, slide the sending unit through, put the speedometer cable back through.

Fight with kids.

Hear a scratching from within the drivers seat. Mouse is living in there. Pretend I don't hear it. Problem for another day.

Fight with kids. Have lunch: Pepsi, granola bar. Tasty.

Snap part of instrument cluster. Unobtainium. Curse. Superglue.

Fight with kids.

Get most of it put back together.

Try to start car, try to start car.

Curse. Fight with kids. Send kids inside.

Figure it's a fuse. It isn't a fuse.

Take a break. Manage to figure out it's a bizarre wiring problem from the previous owner.

Start car. Let car warm up. Go inside to have dinner

Fans come on. Temperature stays steady at 190. 

Happy dance! 

Pull car into garage. Shut car off. More accurately remove keys from ignition.

Car keeps running. Wedge myself back up under dashboard to look at franken wiring. See problem. Wire plugged into always live circuit, not live on switch circuit.

Fix problem. Shut car off. Call it a night.

I wonder if the speedometer works?


----------



## Nemo2

HaHaHa.......sounds like us when we recently replaced the lid switch on the washing machine!


----------



## humble_pie

crazyjackcsa said:


> ... Pull car into garage. Shut car off. More accurately remove keys from ignition.
> 
> Car keeps running. Wedge myself back up under dashboard to look at franken wiring. See problem. Wire plugged into always live circuit, not live on switch circuit


i love this. Nemo, did your washing machine keep on washing? the comedy possibilities are endless. a world of wired machines that won't shut down ...


----------



## m3s

crazyjackcsa said:


> Car keeps running. Wedge myself back up under dashboard to look at franken wiring. See problem. Wire plugged into always live circuit, not live on switch circuit.
> 
> Fix problem. Shut car off. Call it a night.
> 
> I wonder if the speedometer works?


Haha! Reminds of the immobilizer/keyless entry I installed on my old Honda. I was quite smug, until one day the wire harness slipped out and got caught on my clutch foot. PITA ever after

Also reminds me I need some crazy glue to replace one of the field repairs on my bike. No way I'm paying the OEM-Unobtanium prices for plastic molds


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> i love this. Nemo, did your washing machine keep on washing? the comedy possibilities are endless. a world of wired machines that won't shut down ...


It didn't keep washing, but I'll swear it said "I'll be back".......in an Austrian accent.


----------



## Barwelle

Funny story crazyjack. Though i personally think you're crazy (no offense) for not going after that mouse... eww. They stink when they die! Last fall I spent an entire day pulling apart the cab of a tractor because of a nasty stench. Found not one but two rotting mouse carcasses.

It was worth the hassle. No more stench.

On topic: I've had my car for 2 years and a few months, it's a 2005. Bought at 112,000km, now at 172. I have a goal of keeping it till at least 300k. At the rate I'm driving, I'll hit that sometime in 2018.


----------



## crazyjackcsa

We're already into the stink stage. I think they spent the whole winter in the car. The seat comes out tomorrow.


----------



## marina628

Generally 3-4 years but now we have a 2008,2010 and 2011 and no plans to get rid of any of them.One of them we bought brand new with intention to keep 25+ years as it was /is expensive muscle car and we only drive it when it is a nice sunny day and never at night , cant have the bugs hit it lol.My husband is a bit crazy about his car ,before we got it he had the garage painted to match the color of the car and paid quite a bit to put this stuff on the garage floor so there is no dust .It has heat in winter and A/c in summer and he keeps it covered when he does not have it out .I don't drive so I really don't care as long as it gets me from point A to point B and has A/C lol


----------



## Sherlock

Speaking of old Lincolns here's Top Gear's review of an old Lincoln, quite amusing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzpx_jUUA0


----------



## colossk

We have always leased but our last 2 vehicles we purchased. 

We have a 2007 Honda Civic and a 2009 Montana. Our plan was to keep the Honda for about 10-15 years (5 years in) and the Minivan until our 3 kids were out of car seats/boosters. (About 10 years and we are 4 years in ) Our Montana cost 17k including taxes brand new (clearing them out the door) and has 48, 000 km. Nothing wrong with the vehicle at all. My wife had us out at a dealership looking at the 2013 Santa Fe's Last week for fun and I stupidly agreed to look just for "fun". I went to the washroom and came back 5 minutes later and the next thing I know my wife had agreed to a 24h test drive and an appraisal on the Montana. 

Needless to say I had to put my foot down. No way can I justify paying $500 extra/month for the next 7 years when we currently don't have any car payments.


----------



## humble_pie

nemo what would happen if you wired an eggbeater to a hairdryer?

to the hair? to the omelette?


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

I don't know but it would be fun to watch.


----------



## Nemo2

humble_pie said:


> nemo what would happen if you wired an eggbeater to a hairdryer?
> 
> to the hair? to the omelette?


----------



## Plugging Along

Lol. You guys kill me. Thanks for the laugh


----------



## foodmicro

I kept my last car 15 years; it was 19 years old when I sold it. Not bad for a 1993 Grand Prix! I vowed that I'd make the car last me through grad school...and with regular maintenance and oil changes, it required very little in large-scale repairs. I used to joke that my car outlasted a husband and several boyfriends  The only reason I'm not still driving it is that we moved cross-country, and I didn't think it would make the trip.


----------



## Rusty O'Toole

Picked up an antique car magazine that had an article about a 1982 Olds Toronado coupe with 300,000 miles on it, all in the hands of the original owner. This floored me, as the late 70s - early 80s were a real low point in American car quality. Yet, with regular maintenance and careful use the car has given reliable service all these years. The body and paint still look good, even the upholstery is still intact. Only major repair was the installation of a used engine/trans at 175,000 miles.


----------



## christinad

I have a 1990 toyota corolla. It only has 90000 kilometres on it. It isn't rusting as it has been parked indoors. I hope to drive it for many more years. I'm worried about getting parts for it if it breaks down though. I'm going to need to get a timing belt. The brakes are good.


----------



## HaroldCrump

A 1990 model year vehicle with 90,000 kms. on it is a collector's item - not a regular use vehicle.
Congrats on keeping it running, though


----------



## fraser

Just snagged $200. from an ad agency for using a still of our 1997 Camry in a Toyota web add.


----------



## blin10

hopefully you're not one of those old corolla owners that love to drive below speed limit... ;o



christinad said:


> I have a 1990 toyota corolla. It only has 90000 kilometres on it. It isn't rusting as it has been parked indoors. I hope to drive it for many more years. I'm worried about getting parts for it if it breaks down though. I'm going to need to get a timing belt. The brakes are good.


----------



## Sherlock

Doesn't matter if it's an old corolla or a new one, it's just as likely to be found cruising in the left lane below the limit. Especially if it's beige...


----------



## My Own Advisor

1990 Corolla? Wow.


----------



## sprocket1200

not really, 1994 dakota owner, 354,000 low kms...!



My Own Advisor said:


> 1990 Corolla? Wow.


----------

