# First snow day!



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

First real snow day this fall with a forecast for ~20cm tonight. Having fun driving around, already getting some 2-3ft drifts due to high winds ... gotta love awd.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I heard about that from friends. Manitoba might be the only place getting some snow right now.

Looking at the weather map, there's some really cold weather in AB & SK... down to -20 in places. But not much precipitation by the looks of it.

And for some reason, out east is extremely warm, over 10 C in Toronto, Ottawa.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Toronto is getting rain tonight (Friday Nov. 11, 2022). I think snow will arrive at the same time as the Santa Claus Parade (Nov. 20,2022).


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I heard about that from friends. Manitoba might be the only place getting some snow right now.
> 
> Looking at the weather map, there's some really cold weather in AB & SK... down to -20 in places. But not much precipitation by the looks of it.
> 
> And for some reason, out east is extremely warm, over 10 C in Toronto, Ottawa.


?
Parts of Alberta had snow weeks ago.

Southern Ontario is often this warm, don't worry, there will be a rush for snow tires in a week.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

We had few larger snow days that started a few weeks ago. . The first dump caught us off guard because of later nice weather. Got stuck without the snow tires, which force spouse to change them right after. it put me into high gear looking for the used awd vehicle. Then we had a couple of other dumps last week and this week We had almost 30 cm. The snow removal service for my dad actually came out twice in the same day.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> ?
> Parts of Alberta had snow weeks ago.
> 
> Southern Ontario is often this warm, don't worry, there will be a rush for snow tires in a week.


I put my winter michelins on yesterday, it was 21 deg C and I felt silly but I'm hoping to see snow soon. Snow = playtime.


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

My Honda snowblower is gassed up, lubed and ready for action!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> I put my winter michelins on yesterday, it was 21 deg C and I felt silly but I'm hoping to see snow soon. Snow = playtime.


It's been cold enough for winter compound for about a month now

Especially at night whenever it's below 8c you'll stop faster with winter compound. Even worse when cold and wet or early morning frost on bridges etc

Winter tires aren't just for snow they're for emergency stopping grip


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

m3s said:


> It's been cold enough for winter compound for about a month now
> 
> Especially at night whenever its below 8c you'll stop faster with winter compound. Even worse when cold and wet or early morning frost on bridges etc
> 
> Winter tires aren't just for snow they're for emergency stopping grip


If it wasn't for the fact that summer driving absolutely kills them, I'd drive winters year round.
They're FAR better on wet roads IMO.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have had snow for a week or so. Twice. 15cm and 10cm. Has been -20 for a few days. Finally going up to 0 later today.

Bought some Bridgestone Weather Peak tires from Costco. Surprising good for stopping on slippery streets.

The tire tech recommended them. But then said none in stock, none on order. I went home, was able to order them from costco.ca, and had them shipped to the Costco store. Arrived at the store two weeks later.


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## Fisherman30 (Dec 5, 2018)

Got to try out my new electric snowblower I got from Costco. It worked amazingly. No gas, no maintenance, no work required before storing it for the summer.


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## Johnny199r (May 20, 2014)

cainvest said:


> First real snow day this fall with a forecast for ~20cm tonight. Having fun driving around, already getting some 2-3ft drifts due to high winds ... gotta love awd.


I've been going up to Thompson the last few weeks for work, they've been getting blasted by snow every time I go up there.

Winnipeg is always tropical by comparison.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Dilbert said:


> My Honda snowblower is gassed up, lubed and ready for action!


Mine will get fired shortly. 

Thankfully I did the regular fall tune up a few weeks back .. check belts, adjust cables, etc


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> It's been cold enough for winter compound for about a month now
> 
> Especially at night whenever it's below 8c you'll stop faster with winter compound. Even worse when cold and wet or early morning frost on bridges etc
> 
> Winter tires aren't just for snow they're for emergency stopping grip


yes I agree totally but I never go out at night, the last time was back in September if my memory serves me well. My winter tyre (compound and tread ( sipes) design) selection was based more on emperical data on stopping distance on wet/ice conditions rather than snow grip. The AWD on my car will help on snow but on cold wet roads it all about friction co-efficient to get the most out of the modern sopisticated anti-lock brake system


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> The AWD on my car will help on snow but on cold wet roads it all about friction co-efficient to get the most out of the modern sopisticated anti-lock brake system


Yes ABS only kicks in when the tire starts to slip

Tires are easily the most important thing on a vehicle

Can't put power down or stop faster when limited by grip


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> If it wasn't for the fact that summer driving absolutely kills them, I'd drive winters year round.
> They're FAR better on wet roads IMO.


Pro's and con's , the rubber compound will be softer giving a better friction coefficient for sure but a tyre designed for good traction on ice can be problematic in the summer due to increased risk of aquaplanning on wet roads. As welll wear and noise being an issue for most of us. It is also generally better to have a narrower tyre in thick wet snow conditions and if you have amodern car they come with big alloy wheels and low profile tyre (for astheticc reasons but also notionally for trackday cornering performance.) A higher profile tyre is a bit better in winter and the corner performance degradation due to tyre sidewall deflection shouldn't be a factor
Aircraft tyres are designed with plain old simple circumfrential big grooves to avoid aquaplaning, ( landing and take-off flight phases at high speed on a contaminated runway) car tyres never have this design because of course they are for road use and the only directional control a car driver has is steering the tyre on the road so cornering stability on a car is important too


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> Yes ABS only kicks in when the tire starts to slip
> 
> Tires are easily the most important thing on a vehicle
> 
> Can't put power down or stop faster when limited by grip


Agreed, 100%. I despair at the condition of some tyres I see on the roads


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I have never bothered with winter tires in Calgary. Don't go out of the city. The tires I just bought are apparently in between all season and snow. I have only had them a few weeks. Very nice on pavement. Worked well on the last two snowfalls we just had. But...we usually wait for a day or two after the snowfall to go out. We are away two months or more during the winter. After retiring and not having a company SUV I decided not to go with snows. I always had very good all seasons. Interestingly, Calgary police do not change over to snow tires either.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

Fisherman30 said:


> Got to try out my new electric snowblower I got from Costco. It worked amazingly. No gas, no maintenance, no work required before storing it for the summer.


I would be interested to hear how well it clears the snow. 

My shovels and ice breakers are poised and ready for the wife to spring into action.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

ian said:


> I have never bothered with winter tires in Calgary. Don't go out of the city. The tires I just bought are apparently in between all season and snow. I have only had them a few weeks. Very nice on pavement. Worked well on the last two snowfalls we just had. But...we usually wait for a day or two after the snowfall to go out. We are away two months or more during the winter. After retiring and not having a company SUV I decided not to go with snows. I always had very good all seasons. Interestingly, Calgary police do not change over to snow tires either.


There are new "all weather" tires that apparently have some compounding that gets good cold weather performance.

My friend had a truck with great off road tires, but once it got cold, they had no grip.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> Yes ABS only kicks in when the tire starts to slip
> 
> Tires are easily the most important thing on a vehicle
> 
> Can't put power down or stop faster when limited by grip


I know it's a peaceful, none emotive discussion item but I'm feeling pedantic 

The anti lock system must work to release the brake (temporarily) in plenty of time before the brake locks up (and makes a tyre skid) on a car or plane it's to prevent skidding on an aeroplane it is to gain max braking efficiency of an autobrake system that is selected by the pilot (high med low or off)
In the spirit of doubling down Slip is term used for sideways movement of the tyre versus forward movement circumfrential rotation and expressed as an angle from the tyre contact patch center point.

The new systems and wheel speed sensors of ant-lock are so good that they are used to detect quite modest tyre pressure issues (air/nitogen leakage.) Relegating tyre pressure transducers on cars to history.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We buy rims and snow tires when we buy a new vehicle.

It is a big upfront expense, but it really doesn't cost much more over the time of the car.

Most of the cost in in storage and changing the tires, which is about $300 a year at our dealer.

Since we drive the regular tires most of the year, and the snows during the winter the tires last us longer before needing replacement because we put less kms on each set.

I found that with our small SUV, AWD and snow tires, it runs like a tank in the snow. It plows through snowy roads with no problem and stops really well at intersections.

We used to have all seasons on our sedans years ago, and slid down hills and right through some intersections. That is when we decided to buy snows.

PS.....we also bought snows and rims for our grandson's mom.

She commutes 60 kms to work and was getting stuck and sliding around all the time. We feared she would get in an accident.

All she has to do is show up at the dealership and let them transfer the tires. It is all pre-paid by us and still we have to keep bugging her to get it done.

When we first bought the snows for her a couple years ago, we also changed her oil.......which she hadn't done in 4 years.

The level of "don't care" is pretty high there.


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

_annoyed grunt_
I'm not ready for this.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrMatt said:


> There are new "all weather" tires that apparently have some compounding that gets good cold weather performance.


All weather are ok, kind of a middle ground between all season and winter tires. Good for those that don't want to change tires for the seasons.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

MrMatt said:


> There are new "all weather" tires that apparently have some compounding that gets good cold weather performance.
> 
> My friend had a truck with great off road tires, but once it got cold, they had no grip.


Michelin crossclimate2 tyres are getting a lot of reviews as all season tyre that work well in colder climates. My neighbour has them on his matrix and I'll be interested to see what he says when we get snow and ice. He put winter tyres on his wife's ford escape his reasoning was because his wife's family are in a snowyer region in QC and they take the ford. I think he was a bit confused about the laws pertaining to QC residents and having to have winter tyres. - or maybe I'm confused as I assume someone who is ONT resident driving from ON to QC for a visit to the belle provonce can't be forced to have winter tyres fitted before entering QC.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Michelin crossclimate2 tyres are getting a lot of reviews as all season tyre that work well in colder climates. My neighbour has them on his matrix and I'll be interested to see what he says when we get snow and ice. He put winter tyres on his wife's ford escape his reasoning was because his wife's family are in a snowyer region in QC and they take the ford. I think he was a bit confused about the laws pertaining to QC residents and having to have winter tyres. - or maybe I'm confused as I assume someone who is ONT resident driving from ON to QC for a visit to the belle provonce can't be forced to have winter tyres fitted before entering QC.


I like my winter tires, but honestly paying to get a set that I dont' have to swap might be nice.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

I did mine yesterday, despite that it was 17C out.



sags said:


> Most of the cost in in storage and changing the tires, which is about $300 a year at our dealer.


I do mine myself. I got tired of paying someone for a job I could do better. I bought a good lug wrench and a floor jack for $100 and never looked back. I think most of the work before was loading the wheels in and out of the back on the way to the mechanic. Now it is rolling them across the floor to and from the car.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Michelin crossclimate2 tyres are getting a lot of reviews as all season tyre that work well in colder climates.


I mentioned those to a friend that needed new tires for this winter. Sadly they were out of stock for the size needed so they went with bridgestone weatherpeak.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

cainvest said:


> All weather are ok, kind of a middle ground between all season and winter tires. Good for those that don't want to change tires for the seasons.


That is why we chose the Weather Peaks. 

When we lived in Quebec, Ontario and even Alberta in the late 70's we always had snows on rims. But only needed 2 at that time. Four is a PITA.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

gardner said:


> I do mine myself.


Me too ... the rates most charge for changing tires (and storage) is criminal IMO.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

ian said:


> That is why we chose the Weather Peaks.
> 
> When we lived in Quebec, Ontario and even Alberta in the late 70's we always had snows on rims. But only needed 2 at that time. Four is a PITA.


Huh?
You need 4 tires, unless you're on a motorocycle.

Swapping only 2 is a BAD IDEA


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Gothenburg83 said:


> The anti lock system must work to release the brake (temporarily) in plenty of time before the brake locks up (and makes a tyre skid) on a car


ABS is good for most but knowing how to drive in bad conditions is much more useful IMO.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Most of the cost in in storage and changing the tires, which is about $300 a year at our dealer.


Dealers are a huge rip off

It's about $100 to change tires and if it's free that's because the profit is built in already

Heck you could rent a whole self-storage for that crazy price. Or just store them yourself


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I am not interested in swapping the tires twice a year. We pay about $300 and the dealer changes them and stores them. All we do is drive in and get a coffee.

I did used to watch our neighbor when he swapped out the tires twice a year. I am not quite sure what he was doing but it would take him all day.

Sometimes he would disappear for awhile and leave the car up on the jack. It was entertaining and my wife even used to watch him and laugh.

We used to have a home with a 4 car garage full of boy toys and tools, but got tired of all that after I retired.

We sold everything and now we just pay. Sometimes we walk next door and have a nice lunch while they change the tires.

You could think of it as a nice day out or a mini vacation travel expense.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

gardner said:


> I did mine yesterday, despite that it was 17C out.
> 
> 
> 
> I do mine myself. I got tired of paying someone for a job I could do better. I bought a good lug wrench and a floor jack for $100 and never looked back. I think most of the work before was loading the wheels in and out of the back on the way to the mechanic. Now it is rolling them across the floor to and from the car.


I agree about the workload aspect of doing it yourself as well as paying someone to do a easy task. booking an appointment etc. 
I always choose a nice day (not usually 21C mind) and it rarely takes very long.

Yesterday wasn't my finest hour and I was paying too much attention to my podcast and doing cosmetic touch-ups on the black steel wheels and not paying attention to the tyre rotation direction arrow on the sidewall. I was on the last wheel when I saw the arrow. I can swap back to front on one side but not diagonally. A major headslap moment and some f'ing and jeffing at myself.

I like to clean out the wheel well and do a wee inspection but I guess for folks in apartments or limited storage space or limited time I imagine there no option but to cough up the cash.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> I know it's a peaceful, none emotive discussion item but I'm feeling pedantic
> 
> The anti lock system must work to release the brake (temporarily) in plenty of time before the brake locks up (and makes a tyre skid) on a car or plane it's to prevent skidding on an aeroplane it is to gain max braking efficiency of an autobrake system that is selected by the pilot (high med low or off)
> In the spirit of doubling down Slip is term used for sideways movement of the tyre versus forward movement circumfrential rotation and expressed as an angle from the tyre contact patch center point.
> ...


You don't think that better tires improve braking performance?

I used to race and can tell you stickier tire compound has more grip and lets you brake harder and put more power to the ground. ABS senses when the tire starts to lose grip (slip is a term most people would understand but ok) I know that my ABS kicks on at different times depending on the temperatures, surface and everything else that impacts tire grip

The new motorcycles have adjustable ABS for off-road and performance modes. Traction control uses the same wheel speed sensors on the brake discs

Better tires give you better stopping performance, so it's important to have the right tire compound

Do you pay for nitrogen?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> I am not interested in swapping the tires twice a year. We pay about $300 and the dealer changes them and stores them. All we do is drive in and get a coffee.
> 
> I did used to watch our neighbor when he swapped out the tires twice a year. I am not quite sure what he was doing but it would take him all day.
> 
> ...


You're getting ripped off. Shouldn't that be included in that platinum dealership plan? Independent shop would be better

In the US my colleagues would fly to Florida for the weekend for that price and get more than a coffee


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I hope those Manitoba highways are cleared up. I have drive down to the ND border.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> You don't think that better tires improve braking performance?
> 
> I used to race and can tell you stickier tire compound has more grip and lets you brake harder and put more power to the ground. ABS senses when the tire starts to lose grip (slip is a term most people would understand but ok) I know that my ABS kicks on at different times depending on the temperatures, surface and everything else that impacts tire grip
> 
> ...


Well I'll have to give some thought to racetrack tyres and set-up but my instinct is to say no not really. The slowing of a vehicle is all about the conversion of kinetic energy into heat (ignoring parasitic drag wind resistance and of course like on aircraft spoilers/ speed brakes (drag not heat brakes) and engine thrust reversers.
Good grip tyres for sure means you can drive much more aggressively by braking into corners much later and when you accelerate out of the corner the driven tyres don't loose traction ( slip ) A race car has a lot more dynamics going on like loss of downforce due to loss of speed and the shifting on mass on each tyre which is mitigated by the suspension set up. These changes mean the grip if a tyre is changing as load changes and also the contact point is moving and the rolling radius changes. But all that said I only know of car ABS using wheel speed sensors ( in aerospace we played around with strain gauges on the brake torque take out structure) I say this because I don't know of any intrumentation that can be used to measure the friction co-efficient between the tyre and road surface in realtime during braking to give an ABS system feedback to activate the brake control valves. Temperature plays a huge part in the friction co-efficient and your car ABS may have a few different pre-set algorithms for different ambient air temperatures but I can't think how it knows what road surface you are on and detect which tyre is on a high friction surface where another is on say a bit of road paint , the tyre load , tyre rolling radius etc. I think its all about wheel speed. The realtime wheel speed before and after during braking will tell the ABS system if the brake is about to lock up. I imagine racecars and your high end vehicle have very high data acquisition rates and impressive processors to improve the system efficiency.
Happy to be corrected on this. I'm not a car brake specialist.

No I have never used nitrogen in my car tyres. I think paying for nitrogen for a road car is a waste of money. Sure Aeroplane tyres are always dry nitrogen and I imagine racecars too just to get away from the nasty burny oxygen in air. If my car tyres get so hot that the oxygen is a problem then I have been running on a very flat tyre for a long long time. 

To bore you more I do pay for nitrox when diving unless I go below 100ft. Usually its 28 to 32% oxygen.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Well I'll have to give some thought to racetrack tyres and set-up but my instinct is to say no not really. The slowing of a vehicle is all about the conversion of kinetic energy into heat (ignoring parasitic drag wind resistance and of course like on aircraft spoilers/ speed brakes (drag not heat brakes) and engine thrust reversers.
> Good grip tyres for sure means you can drive much more aggressively by braking into corners much later and when you accelerate out of the corner the driven tyres don't loose traction ( slip ) A race car has a lot more dynamics going on like loss of downforce due to loss of speed and the shifting on mass on each tyre which is mitigated by the suspension set up. These changes mean the grip if a tyre is changing as load changes and also the contact point is moving and the rolling radius changes. But all that said I only know of car ABS using wheel speed sensors ( in aerospace we played around with strain gauges on the brake torque take out structure) I say this because I don't know of any intrumentation that can be used to measure the friction co-efficient between the tyre and road surface in realtime during braking to give an ABS system feedback to activate the brake control valves. Temperature plays a huge part in the friction co-efficient and your car ABS may have a few different pre-set algorithms for different ambient air temperatures but I can't think how it knows what road surface you are on and detect which tyre is on a high friction surface where another is on say a bit of road paint , the tyre load , tyre rolling radius etc. I think its all about wheel speed. The realtime wheel speed before and after during braking will tell the ABS system if the brake is about to lock up. I imagine racecars and your high end vehicle have very high data acquisition rates and impressive processors to improve the system efficiency.
> Happy to be corrected on this. I'm not a car brake specialist.
> 
> ...


Dude

If you think tires don't help you stop but you have to think about it.. You should tell the racers to stop buying R-compound tires.

I had g force reading on my car and tires absolutely make a difference and change when ABS triggers. You absolutely can stop faster with better rubber compound. It's very obvious on a motorbike as well

I'm not even reading this.. you may be book smart..


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

The most depressing season of the year, darkness, slippery roads and increase in traffic jams due to collision. I feel so envious of snowbirds every winter I spend in this cold country.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Well I'll have to give some thought to racetrack tyres and set-up but my instinct is to say no not really. The slowing of a vehicle is all about the conversion of kinetic energy into heat (ignoring parasitic drag wind resistance and of course like on aircraft spoilers/ speed brakes (drag not heat brakes) and engine thrust reversers.
> Good grip tyres for sure means you can drive much more aggressively by braking into corners much later and when you accelerate out of the corner the driven tyres don't loose traction ( slip ) A race car has a lot more dynamics going on like loss of downforce due to loss of speed and the shifting on mass on each tyre which is mitigated by the suspension set up. These changes mean the grip if a tyre is changing as load changes and also the contact point is moving and the rolling radius changes. But all that said I only know of car ABS using wheel speed sensors ( in aerospace we played around with strain gauges on the brake torque take out structure) I say this because I don't know of any intrumentation that can be used to measure the friction co-efficient between the tyre and road surface in realtime during braking to give an ABS system feedback to activate the brake control valves. Temperature plays a huge part in the friction co-efficient and your car ABS may have a few different pre-set algorithms for different ambient air temperatures but I can't think how it knows what road surface you are on and detect which tyre is on a high friction surface where another is on say a bit of road paint , the tyre load , tyre rolling radius etc. I think its all about wheel speed. The realtime wheel speed before and after during braking will tell the ABS system if the brake is about to lock up. I imagine racecars and your high end vehicle have very high data acquisition rates and impressive processors to improve the system efficiency.
> Happy to be corrected on this. I'm not a car brake specialist.
> 
> ...


30 second google-

During its normal service life, a tire is subjected to large variations in operating conditions, such as ambient temperature, inflation pressure, and changes in tread depth. The longitudinal force response of the tire changes significantly because of each of these operating conditions. *This, in turn, would directly influence the performance of the antilock braking system (ABS) installed in a vehicle. Current ABS systems are tuned for a vehicle with fixed operating thresholds that do not change.* The objective of this study was to understand the influence of a tire's operating conditions on ABS efficiency and the extent of variation it can cause on stopping distance. This was done by obtaining longitudinal-slip characteristics for a given tire at various temperatures, inflation pressures, and tread depth through a traction trailer. These data were then used to simulate an ABS braking maneuver using a half-car vehicle model. The major reasons for the loss in stopping distance performance because of a drop in efficiency under each condition was then analyzed in detail. The latter part of this study explored the potential for improvement in stopping distance that could possibly be achieved through an intelligent ABS system that would use tire-sensed information, such as temperature, pressure, and tread depth to calculate essential tire characteristics in real time using an adaptive magic formula and change its tuning parameters accordingly.

Suppose the tire only has an all-season compound and tread pattern for traction. *That limits the vehicle’s ability to apply and translate forces – including those necessary for acceleration, deceleration, and cornering ability – to the ground by the available grip of that tire. *For example, a vehicle could have a top-of-the-line braking assembly with carbon-ceramic discs and 8-piston calipers fitted. *Those brakes, with all their stopping power, will only be able to slow down the car as much as the tire’s grip allows in that driving environment before ABS systems (if equipped) intervene.*


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## Ukrainiandude (Aug 25, 2020)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Michelin crossclimate2 tyres are getting a lot of reviews as all season tyre that work well in colder climates. My neighbour has them on his matrix and I'll be interested to see what he says when we get snow and ice. He put winter tyres on his wife's ford escape his reasoning was because his wife's family are in a snowyer region in QC and they take the ford. I think he was a bit confused about the laws pertaining to QC residents and having to have winter tyres. - or maybe I'm confused as I assume someone who is ONT resident driving from ON to QC for a visit to the belle provonce can't be forced to have winter tyres fitted before entering QC.


Winter tyres should be mandatory in this cold country.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Winter tyres should be mandatory in this cold country.


Should be 100% at fault if you kill someone on summer/no-season tires

Like drunk driving


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## Fisherman30 (Dec 5, 2018)

Gothenburg83 said:


> I would be interested to hear how well it clears the snow.
> 
> My shovels and ice breakers are poised and ready for the wife to spring into action.



Actually it worked great. I have a smaller lot, but the snow was pretty deep (15-20cm), and it cleared my whole property with one battery. There is a storage slot for a second battery if you had a larger driveway. It uses an 80 volt battery, so it has quite a bit of power. The battery is also compatible with a bunch of other stuff that greenworks makes as well, like weed trimmer, push mower, chainsaw etc. 

My only concern about electric power equipment is that eventually, they're not going to be making this exact type of battery anymore. With gas powered equipment, it can last 20 years, and all you have to do is put gas in it and maintain it.


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

m3s said:


> It's been cold enough for winter compound for about a month now
> 
> Especially at night whenever it's below 8c ...


Odd ... it's been a three day cycle alternating between below 8c and above 8c (10c, 17c are the recent ones).


Cheers


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Eclectic21 said:


> Odd ... it's been a three day cycle alternating between below 8c and above 8c (10c, 17c are the recent ones).


If it hits 8c at any time you're probably better to have winters

You should want the shorter stopping distance especially on a cold morning with kids lining up for the bus 🤷‍♂️

We had frost a month ago and bridges frost up even sooner


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## Eclectic21 (Jun 25, 2021)

I have yet to see any kids lined up for the bus at 6am or 11am, which are the typical times to drive somewhere.

The few times there has been frost, it's been on roofs and not the ground. 
Maybe it hit the ground on days I didn't drive anywhere?


I'll probably put the snow tires on early next week.


Cheers

*PS*
I have seen lots of other drivers who assume that snow tire mean they can drive in winter the same as they do in summer, in dry conditions.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Eclectic21 said:


> I have yet to see any kids lined up for the bus at 6am or 11am, which are the typical times to drive somewhere.
> 
> The few times there has been frost, it's been on roofs and not the ground.
> Maybe it hit the ground on days I didn't drive anywhere?


I assume people are a lot smarter than they actually are apparently



Eclectic21 said:


> *PS*
> I have seen lots of other drivers who assume that snow tire mean they can drive in winter the same as they do in summer, in dry conditions.


Try emergency stopping on a cold wet morning

You'll find out that you assume you can drive on summer compound the same as in cold conditions


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukrainiandude said:


> The most depressing season of the year, darkness, slippery roads and increase in traffic jams due to collision. I feel so envious of snowbirds every winter I spend in this cold country.


Absolutely. And I don't like that time change either. The sun set today at 4:30 pm... WTF?

It gets pretty dark from here forward until the solstice. After that the days start getting longer and that really cheers me up, even though it's cold.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> 30 second google-
> 
> During its normal service life, a tire is subjected to large variations in operating conditions, such as ambient temperature, inflation pressure, and changes in tread depth. The longitudinal force response of the tire changes significantly because of each of these operating conditions. *This, in turn, would directly influence the performance of the antilock braking system (ABS) installed in a vehicle. Current ABS systems are tuned for a vehicle with fixed operating thresholds that do not change.* The objective of this study was to understand the influence of a tire's operating conditions on ABS efficiency and the extent of variation it can cause on stopping distance. This was done by obtaining longitudinal-slip characteristics for a given tire at various temperatures, inflation pressures, and tread depth through a traction trailer. These data were then used to simulate an ABS braking maneuver using a half-car vehicle model. The major reasons for the loss in stopping distance performance because of a drop in efficiency under each condition was then analyzed in detail. The latter part of this study explored the potential for improvement in stopping distance that could possibly be achieved through an intelligent ABS system that would use tire-sensed information, such as temperature, pressure, and tread depth to calculate essential tire characteristics in real time using an adaptive magic formula and change its tuning parameters accordingly.
> 
> Suppose the tire only has an all-season compound and tread pattern for traction. *That limits the vehicle’s ability to apply and translate forces – including those necessary for acceleration, deceleration, and cornering ability – to the ground by the available grip of that tire. *For example, a vehicle could have a top-of-the-line braking assembly with carbon-ceramic discs and 8-piston calipers fitted. *Those brakes, with all their stopping power, will only be able to slow down the car as much as the tire’s grip allows in that driving environment before ABS systems (if equipped) intervene.*


Well there is lot to digest in that Google search for sure and I suppose I'm glad you found a google search that fits your needs, sounds like a great uni experiment.. Do yoy have a citation? because II wish you have included citations for review. 
Since you never provided a citation I'd say that to me your stuff speaks to the development of the ABS closed loop control algorithim development that targets and maximizes the overall efficiency by the scientifific experimentation of the many many variables involved. In this enviromoment parameters like tread wear can be charted and explored against the other variables. But in reality how is tread wear measured in real time on an every day car millisecond by millsecond across the varying contract tread pattern? Tread wear is uneven circumfrentially but more espescially across the tread contact width and changes over time. What car tyre has temperature sensors built in? What production car wheel has a tyre gas temperaturtue sensor? Who does tyre gas temperature variation work vs a short trip over a bumpy surface? The reality is that passenger car wheels don't have pressure transducers anymore, As I mentioned car tyres with pressure sensors are ancient history. (aircraft tires and truck tires still have them forr other reasonsr) 
Lets face it most tyres suffer from uneven tread wear over time due to many reasons such as steering tracking issues , bearing wear, steering column wear issues, so how does all that work when considering pressure individual differences on any given trip due to uneven tyre loading ( fat people on the left only, cargo/people moving around or passing stuff around in the cabin) , fundamentally today's ABS works on an algorithm based on a best overall bell curve distribution.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm talking about tire compound

You can stop in shorter distance with the proper tire compound for the temperature. This is why racers warm up tires. ABS will activate sooner on cold tires or cold pavement. Braking is limited by the tire.

Try some summer tires in the winter and you will learn faster than reading your non-sense


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> I'm talking about tire compound
> 
> You can stop in shorter distance with the proper tire compound for the temperature. This is why racers warm up tires. ABS will activate sooner on cold tires or cold pavement. Braking is limited by the tire.


Yup.

Given the choice (in winter) I'd much rather have studded winter tires on a vehicle with no ABS than drive a vehicle with all weather tires and ABS.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

Ukrainiandude said:


> Winter tyres should be mandatory in this cold country.


 I agree I suppose but I've remarked on here a few days ago that I often despair at the state of some peoples tyres be they winter or summer. #1 safety priority is get the best tyres you can and maintain / inspect them as if your life depends on them. Not very catchy and a hard sell for politicians.
I have winter tyres but I often have been stuck behind someone struggling to get up a modest incline. I have never had anything but fwd or awd but driving a Rear wheel drive vehicle must be quite the adventure.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have an incline on our street and on our driveway. In twelve years of high end all season tires we have never been stuck anywhere. Nor have we ploughed into anyone.

Part of the reason...we keep our distance, we do not speed, we downshift our automatic transmission on occasion to assist in stopping and starting on snow covered or icy roads. We are well aware that slamming on the brakes can lead straight to the ditch.

Our observation is that there are a great number of people who have no idea how to drive in winter...at least where we live. I sometimes wonder if this is because we do not get the amount of snow or the type of snow that we got in the part of the country where we first learned to drive in winter conditions.


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## Dilbert (Nov 20, 2016)

Michelin Cross Climate All Weather have been awesome in all seasons here around GTA on my Subaru Outback and the wife’s Crosstrek. Both are AWD of course, but I have found the performance on snow has equalled snows for both traction and braking.
As an added bonus, they vastly improve the ride smoothness as well.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

sags said:


> I am not interested in swapping the tires twice a year. We pay about $300 and the dealer changes them and stores them. All we do is drive in and get a coffee.
> 
> I did used to watch our neighbor when he swapped out the tires twice a year. I am not quite sure what he was doing but it would take him all day.


That's a $300 cup of coffee.

I have a floor jack and electric impact wrench. It takes me about 20 minutes to swap all 4 tires. This year I swapped tires on 6 vehicles, 2 for my parents, mine and daughter in law, one of my wife's friends, and one of my friends.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Dilbert said:


> Michelin Cross Climate All Weather have been awesome in all seasons here around GTA on my Subaru Outback and the wife’s Crosstrek. Both are AWD of course, but I have found the performance on snow has equalled snows for both traction and braking.
> As an added bonus, they vastly improve the ride smoothness as well.


I've heard good things about these. I can see them working in GTA and for most Americans

Huge advantage is not getting caught emergency stopping on summer compound on a cold morning


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

m3s said:


> I've heard good things about these. I can see them working in GTA and for most Americans
> 
> Huge advantage is not getting caught emergency stopping on summer compound on a cold morning


I had the the Bridgestone equivalents installed. Very happy with them in snow/ice and dry pavement so far. Early days yet though.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

ian said:


> I had the the Bridgestone equivalents installed. Very happy with them in snow/ice and dry pavement so far. Early days yet though.


My friend is happy with them as well, got to test them in a last snowfall.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

cainvest said:


> I mentioned those to a friend that needed new tires for this winter. Sadly they were out of stock for the size needed so they went with bridgestone weatherpeak.


Same here. I had an appointment booked for today and when I got there they told me the Michelin winter's I had booked were out of stock for my wheel size and the best they could do was Hankook I pikes. I also needed new rims but they didn't have any of those either. I missed out on a $100 rebate for the Michelin's and the Hankook's were more expensive. As it would be a few weeks before they could rebook me, I got it done. First winter tires I have had on this vehicle and was pleased with the difference with the all seasons. 

Another customer was called while I was there to be told his tire shipment would be delayed another week as there were none available in Western Canada. I didn't catch the brand or size. To me that tells me we are still suffering supply chain problems. Or perhaps this is the new norm.

Will try and find some used Rims over the winter. Doesn't make sense to put new rims on a 12 year old vehicle.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

londoncalling said:


> Will try and find some used Rims over the winter. Doesn't make sense to put new rims on a 12 year old vehicle.


FB marketplace has lots

People sell the winters+rims when they sell their vehicle and most people avoid used wheels understandably so the market is saturated

I got practically new Michelin winters on rims for the price sags pays every year to have his swapped by the stealership


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

londoncalling said:


> Another customer was called while I was there to be told his tire shipment would be delayed another week as there were none available in Western Canada. I didn't catch the brand or size. To me that tells me we are still suffering supply chain problems. Or perhaps this is the new norm.


Definitely supply chain issues for a few brands/models, some only on certain sizes though.



londoncalling said:


> Will try and find some used Rims over the winter. Doesn't make sense to put new rims on a 12 year old vehicle.


Rims are often not to hard to find if you have a popular vehicle. New steel rims are pretty cheap though if you're going that route.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Good idea to check the torque after a day or two’s worth of driving after swapping The tires.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Money172375 said:


> Good idea to check the torque after a day or two’s worth of driving after swapping The tires.


I do this

But I would imagine shops don't ask people to come back in a few days?

Most shops don't seem to take the time to properly torque or anti-seize etc


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Worth repeating someone’s earlier comment too. Be sure to check your snow tires…many are directional and will only operate properly on one side of the car.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> But I would imagine shops don't ask people to come back in a few days?


The Costco here does.



m3s said:


> Most shops don't seem to take the time to properly torque or anti-seize etc


Don't know any shop that does anti-seize ... hopefully you're not talking about on the studs/bolts.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Don't know any shop that does anti-seize ... hopefully you're not talking about on the studs/bolts.


No on the hub

But just in general shops in Canada don't do a proper job


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

New video comparing the Cross Climate 2 with the other Michelins

I have the Michelin Pilot Sports for summer and the X-Ice for winter but the Cross Climates do look interesting for many

Note that Cross Climate and X-Ice do take more distance to stop in summer conditions - which is why I will always swap tires

Imagine if you have to emergency stop for a kid that distance could be the difference


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Our dealership has customers come back after 100 kms to check the torque on the nuts.

You just drive up and the service reps come out and do it while you sit in the vehicle.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Our dealership has customers come back after 100 kms to check the torque on the nuts.
> 
> You just drive up and the service reps come out and do it while you sit in the vehicle.


I would hope so

Takes like 30 seconds to do at home 🤡


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I used to do all that stuff before I had money.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> I used to do all that stuff before I had money.


Yet live in a 1970s slum that was built for $5k?

While wasting thousands every year on platinum protection plans and new Chinese SUVs?

Did you learn nothing from CMF?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> Note that Cross Climate and X-Ice do take more distance to stop in summer conditions - which is why I will always swap tires


Winters will wear like crazy in hot temperatures.

Would have liked to seen pure ice performance tested.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Winters will wear like crazy in hot temperatures.


I motorbike whenever possible - I use multiple motorbike tires per season

Yet my Michelin Pilot Sports are about 10 years old now with lots of tread but I can see some slight cracks from age. I just trashed my ancient X-Ice with lots of tread - 17 years old somehow (bought used for the Subaru rims but somehow lasted this long)

For me its mostly about performance that lasts over time - tire grip is the most important thing on a vehicle imo


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

m3s said:


> I would hope so
> 
> Takes like 30 seconds to do at home 🤡


If you have a torque wrench.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

HappilyRetired said:


> If you have a torque wrench.


Torque wrench is like $60 today. $200 for the top kit at Canadian Tire. Bought my Proxxon set decades ago pre-inflation

sags said he pays $300/year after a decade that is $3000. Could buy a shed to store the tires and a torque wrench


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> Torque wrench is like $60 today. $200 for the top kit at Canadian Tire. Bought my Proxxon set decades ago pre-inflation
> 
> sags said he pays $300/year after a decade that is $3000. Could buy a shed to store the tires and a torque wrench


Canadian Tire has them at 50% off this week. I don't know if that is a regional thing.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

m3s said:


> Torque wrench is like $60 today. $200 for the top kit at Canadian Tire. Bought my Proxxon set decades ago pre-inflation
> 
> sags said he pays $300/year after a decade that is $3000. Could buy a shed to store the tires and a torque wrench


I swap 5 or 6 sets of tires spring and fall for family, it takes 20 minutes per vehicle because I have a good floor jack and an electric impact wrench. At $300 a year that's $15,000 per decade.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

sags said:


> Our dealership has customers come back after 100 kms to check the torque on the nuts.
> 
> You just drive up and the service reps come out and do it while you sit in the vehicle.


Forgive my cynicism but this sounds like a cheap way for the dealership to maintain your loyalty by being seen to be thorough.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

It may appear that way but there are also a lot of shops that don't offer it or even mention to the customer it needs to be done. Most people that get their tires changed at a shop are not very mechanical. Others don't have the space or equipment. I get mine done at a shop because I don't have a garage or shed and don't feel like lugging my tires from the basement twice a year and storing them there year round. Nor do I want to make the swap out on the street in the spring and fall. I will however, do the retorque as it is less work than going back to the shop. I know of a few that don't even bother with the retorque as they don't want to go back and don't know how themselves which is not very smart IMO.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Forgive my cynicism but this sounds like a cheap way for the dealership to maintain your loyalty by being seen to be thorough.


Or a cheap way to prevent a lawsuit because lug nuts have worked loose and a wheel falls off.

All the major tire places around here have been offering free re-torquing for decades. Maybe those who are mechanically uneducated think it's a scam, but it's normal practice to check lug nuts shortly after they've been removed and reinstalled. I swap my own tires and do it myself.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

Every year it's the same thing. The OPP in Ontario goes on the radio begging for drivers to slow down and if you don't have to drive, don't. So guess what happens? People go out driving anyways and end up in one of the hundreds of collisions all around the GTA. Eye roll.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

londoncalling said:


> It may appear that way but there are also a lot of shops that don't offer it or even mention to the customer it needs to be done. Most people that get their tires changed at a shop are not very mechanical. Others don't have the space or equipment. I get mine done at a shop because I don't have a garage or shed and don't feel like lugging my tires from the basement twice a year and storing them there year round. Nor do I want to make the swap out on the street in the spring and fall. I will however, do the retorque as it is less work than going back to the shop. I know of a few that don't even bother with the retorque as they don't want to go back and don't know how themselves which is not very smart IMO.


No judgement here in regard to using a shop. I don't like seeing shop mechanics using only impact wrenches. They know better but don't get out the calibrated torque wrench. Besides I am just to cheap to pay someone to do a job I usually quite enjoy doing myself. It's about the only DIY I can do on my current car these days, wiper blades, fluid levels variously and tyre swap. The rest of the stuff is shrouded in a sea of plastic and wiring looms for the sensors needed to meet mpg targets and emissions regulations etc.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> The rest of the stuff is shrouded in a sea of plastic and wiring looms for the sensors needed to meet mpg targets and emissions regulations etc.


That's why I don't like new cars

I fixed a power steering o-ring by removing 2 nuts of the same size. One was a silly piece of plastic I didn't replace

New cars have so much plastic shrouds intentionally to make repairs more complicated for no reason


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> Or a cheap way to prevent a lawsuit because lug nuts have worked loose and a wheel falls off.
> 
> All the major tire places around here have been offering free re-torquing for decades. Maybe those who are mechanically uneducated think it's a scam, but it's normal practice to check lug nuts shortly after they've been removed and reinstalled. I swap my own tires and do it myself.


I do too. 
Was the "mechanically uneducated" comment for my benefit? I do hope so.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> That's why I don't like new cars
> 
> I fixed a power steering o-ring by removing 2 nuts of the same size. One was a silly piece of plastic I didn't replace
> 
> New cars have so much plastic shrouds intentionally to make repairs more complicated for no reason


I agree but as I don't miss spending all weekend out on the street in all weathers fixing my car so I can get to work on Monday. Not exactly fond memories.
I watch a guy on YouTube fixing his 2CV, wings off & engine swaps before lunch and all that and the simplicity of it almost makes me want one. Then he spends hours one bolt and every where he works he is finding rot and I know it's not for me.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> For me its mostly about performance that lasts over time - tire grip is the most important thing on a vehicle imo


I'm an incorrigible pedant but I say this with a smile - the most important thing is the driver.
Then brakes (trust me I know tyres are important in stopping distance but but but ..great tyres with worn hot drum brakes vs bad tyres with great ABS brakes. ...never mind 😉) 

Like modern aircraft engineering future car innovations will work towards removing the human element for better safety.

At Airbus the joke was that the safest future aircraft cockpit was one with a dog and a human pilot. The dog was their to bite the human if he/she touched any controls. The human was only their to feed the dog.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> At Airbus the joke was that the safest future aircraft cockpit was one with a dog and a human pilot. The dog was their to bite the human if he/she touched any controls. The human was only their to feed the dog.


Hasn't been working too well so far

Friend pilot died in a helicopter crash because of autopilot. Same with the 737 fiasco

The best engineers are also operators but it's extremely rare


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Like modern aircraft engineering future car innovations will work towards removing the human element for better safety.


Still a fair way off for that. Could always create better drivers as well, stricter testing and re-test those if found to be a problem on the road.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Still a fair way off for that. Could always create better drivers as well, stricter testing and re-test those if found to be a problem on the road.


Better drivers makes sense but even great drivers are errors waiting to happen. 

I'm not sure of the timescales for science fiiction like cars and I'm too lazy to investigate and certainly reticent to follow others lead and make up BS. The technology is already here in terms of sensors at least but trials have been a bit of a mixed bag. I have read somewhere that to work it is likely that all cars need to be automated and all cars need to be talking to each other.
One upside of fully automated cars will be cities will be more pedestrian friendly , the downside is that automated cars may reach a point where they will hardly move at all as they attempt to second guess the walking primates and cars driven by primates. Think a 4 way stop. How does a car know when to move unless it is in conversation with the other cars or where the primate doesn't fully stop but drifts a little. An automated car will be programmed to stop and wait.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Better drivers makes sense but even great drivers are errors waiting to happen.


Bringing up the lower skilled drivers (or removing them from the road) would make a huge difference and, of course, you'll never remove all errors on the road.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> Hasn't been working too well so far
> 
> Friend pilot died in a helicopter crash because of autopilot. Same with the 737 fiasco
> 
> The best engineers are also operators but it's extremely rare


I am afraid I'm not the best at explaining this stuff but the 737 was a classic example of not engineering in redundancy into a flight critical control system. It was a cynical and criminal cost saving on Boeing's part to get an more economical 737 on the market in response to A320NEO.
The 737 pitch control software relied on one angle of attack sensor. The AOA sensor is a wee vane thingy that is on the outside on the fuselage and moves with the air as the passes over it, therefore vulnerable to any number of failure modes. The Failure mode effect analysis FMEA should have identified the sensor criticality and the failure mode should have been identified as catastrophic on an aircraft that has been radically changed and in effect destabilized the by introducing the higher bypass turofan. That new bigger diameter engine pushed the engine installation further forward and up to avoid a massive landing gear, LG wing attachment structure and LG bay redesign. The resultant engine shift meant pitch control needed and relied on a fly by wire software "fix"but they knowing relyed on only one sensor. one sensor failure resulted in a catastrophic failure. In all things avaition a single failure should never result in a hull loss.

Jail time for anyone involved is what should happen, FAA , boeing the lot.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Gothenburg83 said:


> I'm an incorrigible pedant but I say this with a smile - the most important thing is the driver.
> Then brakes (trust me I know tyres are important in stopping distance but but but ..great tyres with worn hot drum brakes vs bad tyres with great ABS brakes. ...never mind 😉)


Hot worn drum brakes? It's not 1950 anymore. Brakes today are virtually bulletproof when used correctly.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

HappilyRetired said:


> Hot worn drum brakes? It's not 1950 anymore. Brakes today are virtually bulletproof when used correctly.


Yes I am with you on that.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I pushed both brakes and tires to their limits on the track. I suppose you won't stop without good brakes. Last time I used drum brakes was the 90s

On the street the limiting factor is the tires assuming your brake fluid is not boiling from descending a mountain pass. If your brakes can cause ABS to engage - the tire grip is at the limit.

You can pull more g force braking with better tires. It's more evident on the track but translates to the street in an emergency stopping situation


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> I pushed both brakes and tires to their limits on the track. I suppose you won't stop without good brakes. Last time I used drum brakes was the 90s
> 
> On the street the limiting factor is the tires assuming your brake fluid is not boiling from descending a mountain pass. If your brakes can cause ABS to engage - the tire grip is at the limit.
> 
> You can pull more g force braking with better tires. It's more evident on the track but translates to the street in an emergency stopping situation


Good summary that. ABS on a passengrer car can certainly save lives especially if the situation requires hars braking and steering .Like most I have bias and brakes are my thing I suppose. 
This video gave me a lot of incite into F1 drivers skills and the g forces experienced. The optimal brake temp section and disc construction made me think of the advances since the days of drums on the front of my Dad's cars


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Good summary that. ABS on a passengrer car can certainly save lives especially if the situation requires hars braking and steering .Like most I have bias and brakes are my thing I suppose.
> This video gave me a lot of incite into F1 drivers skills and the g forces experienced. The optimal brake temp section and disc construction made me think of the advances since the days of drums on the front of my Dad's cars


I believe F1 invented ABS and then banned it in the 90s because it was too good

I didn't know how the front/rear brake bias worked. As a motorcyclist I'm keenly aware of that bias - the rear end will lock much sooner as the weight transfers forward so you have to be lighter on the rear brake. Cars typically have larger brakes on the front but not sure if they have a set bias like that at the fluid. I've never heard of anyone adjusting it at the track

I did a lot of brake pad, fluid, caliper maintenance when racing. I had to bed in pads often and you were keenly aware of the brake temps - they felt like wooden brakes when cold as did track tires when cold. I recently learned Teslas have a mode to bed in the brake pads

We wanted smaller radius wheels on the track and I've always pointed to F1 cars - they want smaller 13" rims just large large enough to fit those brakes. It's my pet peeve that "sports" cars always have unnecessarily large 19" wheels to look sportier. Smaller wheels give more torque and less rotating mass

Now something I've never got a definitive answer on is the cross drilled and slotted rotors. Motorbikes always seem to have drilled rotors I assume for weight reduction (also floating rotors for the expansion). Those F1 rotors weren't cross drilled maybe because the material is already light. Also interesting that the calipers were mounted to lower the center of gravity

New motorbike ABS has apparently gotten far better - lean angle sensors and modes for off-road to allow you to lock the rear wheel etc


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Gothenburg83 said:


> ABS on a passengrer car can certainly save lives especially if the situation requires hars braking and steering


ABS was never meant to provide better braking, many times it actually increases braking distance depending on the surface. ABS can however provide limited steering control when traction is poor. It is very easy to show someone the limited abilities ABS has on an icy surface.

As a side note, ESC (that uses the ABS system) can be very helpful to avoid spins for many drivers.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

ABS on my motorbike kicks in far sooner than I want most of the time (very good feel for the brakes and used to not having ABS on motorbikes) But it also saved me when I didn't notice or misinterpret the road condition so it's worth it

I turn ESC off everyday in the winter but I also grew up sliding around for fun. It can definitely hurt when you want to maintain momentum for a hill. They aren't all created the same though it really depends on how they are programmed


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> ABS on my motorbike kicks in far sooner than I want most of the time (very good feel for the brakes and used to not having ABS on motorbikes) But it also saved me when I didn't notice or misinterpret the road condition so it's worth it


Never tried ABS on a motorcycle but I could see some uses for it on the front wheel.



m3s said:


> I turn ESC off everyday in the winter but I also grew up sliding around for fun. It can definitely hurt when you want to maintain momentum for a hill. They aren't all created the same though it really depends on how they are programmed


I turn off traction control and leave ESC on for everyday winter driving. ESC shouldn't engage unless you're drifting, which of course we only do on a closed course or off-road.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

m3s said:


> Cars typically have larger brakes on the front but not sure if they have a set bias like that at the fluid. I've never heard of anyone adjusting it at the track


Yes, the braking ratio is generally mechanically determined and fixed. Of course you can adjust this somewhat with brake pad selection for the cheapest route.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

cainvest said:


> Never tried ABS on a motorcycle but I could see some uses for it on the front wheel.
> 
> I turn off traction control and leave ESC on for everyday winter driving. ESC shouldn't engage unless you're drifting, which of course we only do on a closed course or off-road.


Unfortunately mine is on both wheels but the new ones have more settings. I don't like it on the rear. I've adjusted to like it on the front.

My ESC "off" lets me drift 45 degrees or so. But if you hold it for 5 seconds it turns orange and then it's off off. If I could have it permanently off I would


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Where do you store all your tires, rims, and tools in a 1 bedroom high rise apartment ?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Where do you store all your tires, rims, and tools in a 1 bedroom high rise apartment ?


In the attached garage mounted on the wall so there's room for motorbikes

You definitely get more space outside the city though. For the price your son pays rent he could own a large house with a view if he was willing to move

Ontario cities are very poor value for many reasons.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> Where do you store all your tires, rims, and tools in a 1 bedroom high rise apartment ?


Is this a trick question ... Ummmm ... in the apartment?


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

sags said:


> Where do you store all your tires, rims, and tools in a 1 bedroom high rise apartment ?


You're paying $300 a year to have your tires swapped. Buy a friend with a garage a floor jack and a torque wrench, $300 - $400. He gets to keep the tools, you get storage plus your tires swapped twice a year. Even if you have to up the ante and chip in for a small shed you'll still come ahead in just a few years.

I store tires for my wife's friend (she lives in an apartment) and swap them twice a year for her. We have plenty of storage space. She "pays" me a 24 of beer each time. I make $50 or so for 20 minutes of work and she has no storage hassle.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Okay.

I watched the neighbour the other day and he had his wife lug them all up and down from their basement.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

sags said:


> I watched the neighbour the other day and he had his wife lug them all up and down from their basement.


Now that is an impressive wife, able to carry all four tires up from the basement at one time!


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Now that is an impressive wife, able to carry all four tires up from the basement at one time!


A little off topic, a couple years ago I sold four excess 45 pound Olympic weight plates. A young couple came to pick them up, it was a nice summer day and I had already taken them outside and they were sitting on the deck. The fellow paid me and picked up 1 plate and started carrying it to his car, I picked up another plate and followed him. When I turned around there was his 5'0" 95 pound wife effortlessly carrying the other 2 plates!!


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

sags said:


> Okay.
> 
> I watched the neighbour the other day and he had his wife lug them all up and down from their basement.


How many grown men does it take to change a tire  

At least 2 to watch the women apparently


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

m3s said:


> Hasn't been working too well so far
> 
> Friend pilot died in a helicopter crash because of autopilot. Same with the 737 fiasco
> 
> The best engineers are also operators but it's extremely rare


Sorry you lost a friend in an helicopter crash.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

cainvest said:


> Bringing up the lower skilled drivers (or removing them from the road) would make a huge difference and, of course, you'll never remove all errors on the road.


I agree that Lower skilled drivers should be made better. 
The difficult discussion in my family at least is an 82 year old mother who is generally compitent and a steady driver but gets very nervous very quickly. 
Younger folks on phones etc are a bigger issue I'd think.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Gothenburg83 said:


> Younger folks on phones etc are a bigger issue I'd think.


The worst (statistically) are the young men. There's overconfidence, aggression, and too much speed... young men are dangerous drivers.

I've seen many bad women drivers, but at least they drive more slowly and are more timid -- which helps for safety. IMO a driver getting nervous and anxious isn't the worst thing.


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

james4beach said:


> The worst (statistically) are the young men. There's overconfidence, aggression, and too much speed... young men are dangerous drivers.
> 
> I've seen many bad women drivers, but at least they drive more slowly and are more timid -- which helps for safety. IMO a driver getting nervous and anxious isn't the worst thing.


The insurance companies -like most things in life - will have the answer. Young men are for sure all of how you describe them and added to that want to be out and about , doing stuff and have more friends and more reasons to be be here there and everywhere. So more exposure on the roads. 
My Mam isn't up early to go across town to meet a friend, then the friend has an attractive young cousin in town who needs to hear what a 5.0 V8 sounds like and suddenly remember she has a soccer match at 10 that she is running late for. At least I don't think thats how my Mams shopping trip plays out.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> The worst (statistically) are the young men. There's overconfidence, aggression, and too much speed... young men are dangerous drivers.


Likely that was the case years ago but one thing seems to have leveled the risk field for all groups/genders ... distracted driving (i.e. texting). IIRC, it surpassed DUI percentage wise and might even be the top accident cause now.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Still a fair way off for that. Could always create better drivers as well, stricter testing and re-test those if found to be a problem on the road.


No matter how much you test, experience is what the newer drivers need. 

I have a new driver since September, I can tell you every time I get the in car with her, it's a little nerve-racking (not sure if it's her or me, probably both). Though, she passed her tests fine. 



cainvest said:


> Bringing up the lower skilled drivers (or removing them from the road) would make a huge difference and, of course, you'll never remove all errors on the road.


It's through practice and experience that make lower skilled drivers into better drivers. However, one thing I noticed is that once people get their license, they could have bad habits that last forever that don't get corrected. There was a study put out indicating that after a X years, many drivers develop bad habits, and almost 1/2 of them would fail if they had to test again. I would say it would be better to testing after you get your license as a part of the renewal, and maybe even some driving lessons. I am putting my kid into another winter driving coarse because she just have the experience. I don't think many people do these refreshers. 

In the meantime, getting the snow tires on this year was so much more important because I have a new driver.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> No matter how much you test, experience is what the newer drivers need.


Yes, this is generally what a learners permit is for. Here it is a minimum 9 months before the next level which requires you to pass the road test. Honestly, if they had a closed course added to the regular road test that would likely do wonders. The closed course could test vehicle control on low friction surfaces (wet, gravel, ice, etc) as well as reacting to obstacles and sudden stops on all surfaces.



Plugging Along said:


> It's through practice and experience that make lower skilled drivers into better drivers.


Of course, providing you are having the correct experiences and guidance to improve your skills. Taking a weekly Sunday drive to the store is not likely to gain many skills.



Plugging Along said:


> I am putting my kid into another winter driving coarse because she just have the experience. I don't think many people do these refreshers.


These can be good but depends on what they are teaching. I've seen people take these courses that still lack basic skills afterwards.

When someone asks me how to really improve their skills my general response is "start learning how to race" in the conditions you want to improve in. So that means something like autocross in summer time and ice racing in winter. Many of these groups have "newbie" or "track" day that you can drive your vehicle on a closed course in a safe manner.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

cainvest said:


> When someone asks me how to really improve their skills my general response is "start learning how to race" in the conditions you want to improve in. So that means something like autocross in summer time and ice racing in winter. Many of these groups have "newbie" or "track" day that you can drive your vehicle on a closed course in a safe manner.


I think that's a good idea. When I started driving, my dad took me to a large empty parking lot which had various snow and ice obstacles. Zipping around, and slipping or spinning at times, was very educational. Those of us living in AB/SK/MB probably had similar training on insanely snowy and icy streets over the years. That has definitely helped me improve my winter driving skills.

All of this came in very handy during slippery conditions on the 401 highway near Toronto. Conditions were really poor, and thankfully, I was driving slowly and leaving lots of distance from everyone. I hit an ice patch on the highway and spun around, at least a full 360 as I recall. At a higher speed this could have been a horrible accident but luckily at the slow speeds, with enough space from everyone, I was able to recover from that and stayed on the road.

I'm pretty sure that one reason I was able to maintain control and recover from the spin, was that icy parking lot training and years of Winnipeg driving experience. Past experience on ice, with slides and spins, gave me confidence.

Another important race car driving technique I learned from an amateur racer was: *always look at where you want to go*.

Your eyes guide your brain, and your brain guides the rest of your body to make things happen. If you start losing control of the car, make sure you look where you *intend* to go and visualize the straight path you want. My experience has been that my body then automatically does other things that are necessary.

Experiencing ice, and what slipping or spinning feels like, is pretty important to practice.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A funny side story. The only collision I ever had on the 401 highway was in fully stopped traffic that was waiting for construction. The woman in the car _in front of me_ reversed, and rammed my car, causing thousands of $ of damage. It was unbelievable. I was fully stopped when it happened.

She probably accidentally nudged the shifter into reverse, but I have no idea why she hit the gas pedal.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> When I started driving, my dad took me to a large empty parking lot which had various snow and ice obstacles. Zipping around, and slipping or spinning at times, was very educational.


These days that'll likely get you a ticket of some type even though that's exactly what is needed. So many drivers would benefit from this type of training, especially for winter driving.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Plugging Along said:


> No matter how much you test, experience is what the newer drivers need.
> 
> I have a new driver since September, I can tell you every time I get the in car with her, it's a little nerve-racking (not sure if it's her or me, probably both). Though, she passed her tests fine.


Our driver training isn't ideal. I remember mine was very focused on teaching me exactly how to pass the test. It's a business like anything else they want to be as efficient as possible

European drivers were definitely much better trained but they also have much more complicated streets and traffic to navigate. Any kind of performance training definitely improves confidence but it would be expensive. Even just learning how to drift in a snowy parking lot will make it so you don't lock up when it happens on the road

Learning a defensive driving mindset is key. For me I learn that from motorbiking and that sense of danger


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Two comments as my kids have just gone through licensing in Ontario. Seems Youtube will show you a video of the exact route You will take on your road test. Study the route, hit the road and practice and you should be golden. Our instructor said new drivers need 40 hours of practice to be proficient. 10 with the instructor. Other 30 with mom and dad. My son did this and passed his g2 and g exams easily. My daughter…..not so much.

my wife bought me skid school lessons a few years back. I would I say I didn’t much in terms of technique, but they do expose you to EXTREME situations so that you can practice what you know/learned. The cars are outfitted with bald, over inflated tires AND a button (controlled by the instructor) which initiatives a spin by locking the rear wheels. They gradually get you to drive faster and faster on their private lot……..then simulate a lane change…..and WHAMO….button is pushed and the back end spins around. It was quite enjoyable. As mentioned the keys are…..smooth on the brakes, accelerator and steering. Best to only be doing one of the 3 at any given time. Brake before turns, accelerate after the apex. And look where you want to go….not 10 feet in front of you.


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