# You gotta be kidding...would you buy these?



## sags (May 15, 2010)

A poster on Garth Turner's Greater Fool blog posted these.

Seriously, are people "really" paying those prices for these?

Toronto - 769,000

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=10140659&PidKey=-1084859803

Vancouver - 1,080,000

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9167037&PidKey=-41484744

Calgary - 770,000

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9840670&PidKey=1816585767


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## crazyjackcsa (Aug 8, 2010)

The prices are crazy, but it's all about location right?

A cool million would buy you a really nice spread in my area.

http://www.mls.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9768804&PidKey=-642191249


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Toronto, yes.
Even elsewhere in the GTA (Mississauga, Vaughn, Thornhill, Richmind Hill, etc.) prices are crazy.
Even modest 2500 sq. ft. homes with standard "builder" features sell for upwards of $700K.
It is absolutely nuts.

Folks that bought smaller, "starter" homes a few years ago with plans to upgrade later when family size increases are now priced out.
New buyers are either priced out or end up with mortgages of $0.5M +

Large contributing factors to this situation are the insanely low interest rates ("cheap money") and the willingness of folks to take on half a Million $ of mortgage.
Also major factor is folks "flipping" houses every year without significant value add to the property, egged on by RE agents, mortgage brokers and the media.

You know it's gone too far when, at any given hour of the day, there are at least 4 TV shows running in parallel on house flipping, renovations, remodeling and similar topics.


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

Hey! I know that house in Calgary, I pass by it almost every day.

That one is unique, since it is inner city AND zoned for business, which is somewhat rare (but oddly common in that area). This is the only reason it is listed so high.

Comps in the area would fetch only about $350-$380k.

But I agree with one of the other posters, it really is all about location. I don't know anything about the location in Toronto, but the one in Vancouver seems 'reasonable' or at least 'typical'.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Hard to say with that Toronto listing - it has 2 appts and a 2000 sq ft detached shop, so that might be the reason for the asking price.

One other point - asking prices mean nothing. Show me an actual sale price and that's worth talking about.


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## LondonHomes (Dec 29, 2010)

When I think of a Million dollar home or even a $750,000 home those properities are not what I envision. Of courese as other posters have mentioned it is not the structure that is worth the money it is the land.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

LondonHomes said:


> When I think of a Million dollar home or even a $750,000 home those properities are not what I envision. Of courese as other posters have mentioned it is not the structure that is worth the money it is the land.


In the case of GTA (i.e. outside the boundaries of the core city of Toronto), it is not so much the land or the structure, but the demand that's driving the insane valuations.
It's a simple case of the demand curve.
And demand is being driven by cheap money.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Four Pillars said:


> One other point - asking prices mean nothing. Show me an actual sale price and that's worth talking about.


Try telling a real estate agent this! We are, or at least will be shortly, in the market for a new home. When I contact realtors I say I want to be emailed listings of sold homes, not simply listed homes as asking prices mean nothing to me. I get some pretty funny reactions/excuses why they can't send me sold listings.... it's a way for me to weed out realtors I won't deal with, if they are not willing to send me sold listings in the area we're looking to buy, to heck with them!


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

Addy said:


> Try telling a real estate agent this! We are, or at least will be shortly, in the market for a new home. When I contact realtors I say I want to be emailed listings of sold homes, not simply listed homes as asking prices mean nothing to me. I get some pretty funny reactions/excuses why they can't send me sold listings.... it's a way for me to weed out realtors I won't deal with, if they are not willing to send me sold listings in the area we're looking to buy, to heck with them!


It is surprising to me that a buyers agent would refuse to provide a list of comparables with list and selling prices. That's about as basic as you can get. I agree with you that I'd run from such an agent.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Addy said:


> Try telling a real estate agent this! We are, or at least will be shortly, in the market for a new home. When I contact realtors I say I want to be emailed listings of sold homes, not simply listed homes as asking prices mean nothing to me. I get some pretty funny reactions/excuses why they can't send me sold listings.... it's a way for me to weed out realtors I won't deal with, if they are not willing to send me sold listings in the area we're looking to buy, to heck with them!


I agree. They grunt something about privacy and I just grunt and end the discussion. Prospective buyers NEED the historical selling price info.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Ha I rented (To a Tenant)a house on Mulock. It's right beside the Home Depot/Rona on St Clair & Keele. 

What a shitty street about half the street is tiny old decrepit townhouses that should be bulldozed. 

Asking price indeed! Tenant profile for the area is not great either. 

I wonder if it's the same house lol.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> I agree. They grunt something about privacy and I just grunt and end the discussion. Prospective buyers NEED the historical selling price info.


There might be rules about not disclosing the sale price before the offer has been finalized (ie deposit made) as well - during the closing period, I can see the seller not wanting to reveal the sale price in case it has to go to market again.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> There might be rules about not disclosing the sale price before the offer has been finalized (ie deposit made) as well - during the closing period, I can see the seller not wanting to reveal the sale price in case it has to go to market again.


FP, you misunderstood - in this case, the buyer is asking his agent to provide final sale prices for comparable properties to help with the buying decision.
A perfectly reasonable request.
Not providing this information is simply misleading the buyer into potentially over-paying for his property purchase.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> FP, you misunderstood - in this case, the buyer is asking his agent to provide final sale prices for comparable properties to help with the buying decision.
> A perfectly reasonable request.
> Not providing this information is simply misleading the buyer into potentially over-paying for his property purchase.


I realize that - I'm just suggesting that for pending transactions, the information might not be readily available.

I do agree that the agent should provide any comparable information available on MLS, which should include most transactions in the past year or even two.


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## MikeT (Feb 16, 2010)

The house in Vancouver is 4-5 blocks away from kingsway, which hookers populate every night. It is an old crappy Vancouver special on a regular 33 foot lot that someone thinks they can convert into multiunit housing. Maybe they can, I don't know. The area is an ok east van neighborhood. It isn't a fancy area, no where close to any waterfront or anything. It also backs directly on to the skytrain tracks, so you'll have that lovely noise every 4-7 minutes for the rest of your life. My dream house!

You could probably rent it out for about $2500/month. That's about 3% return prior to expenses. Likely a negative return for most people after expenses.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

HaroldCrump said:


> In the case of GTA (i.e. outside the boundaries of the core city of Toronto), it is not so much the land or the structure, but the demand that's driving the insane valuations.
> It's a simple case of the demand curve.
> And demand is being driven by cheap money.


Not to be pedantic, but if it's not the land, and it's not the structure/improvements to the land, what is it that people are buying? Every dollar of value has to be accounted for in one bucket or the other, no?


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Not to be pedantic, but if it's not the land, and it's not the structure/improvements to the land, *what is it that people are buying?* Every dollar of value has to be accounted for in one bucket or the other, no?


Goodwill?


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## Sampson (Apr 3, 2009)

andrewf said:


> ]What is it that people are buying? Every dollar of value has to be accounted for in one bucket or the other, no?


In the Calgary example, it's pure zoning baby. Just drove by it this morning. Its a pretty good spot for a business, high traffic area, nice neighborhood. If only I had a business idea AND a pile of money.


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## HaroldCrump (Jun 10, 2009)

andrewf said:


> Not to be pedantic, but if it's not the land, and it's not the structure/improvements to the land, what is it that people are buying? Every dollar of value has to be accounted for in one bucket or the other, no?


sure, yeah, but my points was more around what is driving the valuations in the last year or two.
The structures are essentially the same as say 3 years ago, in fact, the quality of construction may be slightly poorer and the standard features are less than 3 years ago.
The area and land is essentially unchanged as well - no new industries have been established, no large corporations/employers/govt. has set up base, population growth rate % hasn't accelerated dramatically etc.
The cheap money is egging on renters and newcomers to buy and speculation is influencing multiple property puchases.


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## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

Four Pillars said:


> Goodwill?


Also, _dreams_, _lifestyle_, and _pride of ownership_.

Oh, and their ticket into the ranks of the landowning gentry.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Real estate agents want a signed contract or at least intent to sign before pulling all this data.I understand where they are are coming from as many potential sellers shop around for ages for an agent ,what's the point to pull data for you when you may be another 6 months to sell and prices have change.
This house is for sale 3 minutes walk from mine , just to give idea what you get 1 hour from down town toronto for you money
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=10106233&PidKey=-392616317


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Wouldn't goodwill only enter into it for landmarks, historical buildings and the like?


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## Jungle (Feb 17, 2010)

If that one in Toronto is by the Home depot and LCBO, the area is kinda sketch. 
I bet those realtors had a wet dream after the seller signed the contract. lol


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## osc (Oct 17, 2009)

That Vancouver property is so cheap because is in a cheaper area. Check out this West side mansion at $2.5M :
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9924493&PidKey=1017480759


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## osc (Oct 17, 2009)

HaroldCrump said:


> Toronto, yes.
> Even elsewhere in the GTA (Mississauga, Vaughn, Thornhill, Richmind Hill, etc.) prices are crazy.
> Even modest 2500 sq. ft. homes with standard "builder" features sell for upwards of $700K.
> It is absolutely nuts.


You should be happy, one could buy only a 2 bedroom condo in Vancouver for that money:
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=10108217&PidKey=1563310547


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## NotMe (Jan 10, 2011)

marina628 said:


> This house is for sale 3 minutes walk from mine , just to give idea what you get 1 hour from down town toronto for you money
> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=10106233&PidKey=-392616317


I don't think that's a fair comparison. To be fair Courtice is only an hour from downtown Toronto if you (a) strap a rocket to the back of your car and (b) with said rocket still aren't travelling between the hours of 5am - 1am M-F. There are times when I can't get from downtown to the 401 itself in an hour, let alone past Oshawa.

That said I'm betting that house that was linked to sits on the mls forever. That neighbourhood is ok at best, not great and there are houses in TO you can buy for $600K that are nice.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

Last Tuesday I left my house in Courtice at 10am and we were parked at Eaton center at 11:15am.That area is mostly rural with larger lots , I have lived in Courtice 10 years and owned three homes here .Two were in the Jeffery Courtice Crossing Neighbourhood and one where I am now .I lived in the city for many years ,16 years between Brampton and Toronto and in 1997 we owned a condo at 95 Prince Arthur .I was just posting house prices where I live and what your money could buy.


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## NotMe (Jan 10, 2011)

marina628 said:


> Last Tuesday I left my house in Courtice at 10am and we were parked at Eaton center at 11:15am.That area is mostly rural with larger lots , I have lived in Courtice 10 years and owned three homes here .Two were in the Jeffery Courtice Crossing Neighbourhood and one where I am now .I lived in the city for many years ,16 years between Brampton and Toronto and in 1997 we owned a condo at 95 Prince Arthur .I was just posting house prices where I live and what your money could buy.




I know Marina but you also said it's an hour from downtown. I just pointing out that Courtice is far from Toronto, not slagging on Courtice at all (lovely country). My sister also owned a Jeffrey home in Courtice and though lovely it did seem like it took for-ever to get there. Even leaving at 10am (most don't) it took you longer than an hour to get downtown. Try leaving at 8am on Monday and tell me what time you get in.

I know there are people on here not from Toronto or the GTA and I just wanted to inform them that there are reasons why properties in the city can be worth more than they appear and a shorter commute is a legitimate reason (a 2 - 3 hour commute gets draining and expensive) - that said, that particular property appears to be a craphole. But those listings appear all the time, in boom and bust times. Unrealistic expectations take hold all the time.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

NotMe said:


> I don't think that's a fair comparison. To be fair Courtice is only an hour from downtown Toronto if you (a) strap a rocket to the back of your car and (b) with said rocket still aren't travelling between the hours of 5am - 1am M-F. There are times when I can't get from downtown to the 401 itself in an hour, let alone past Oshawa.
> 
> That said I'm betting that house that was linked to sits on the mls forever. That neighbourhood is ok at best, not great and there are houses in TO you can buy for $600K that are nice.


I agree - Courtice is definitely outside the reasonable commute range for TO.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Where I live in Richmond BC I have asian realtors asking me all the time if I would sell and they have buyers ready to buy now for $888,000 plus after commission. After they buy it if I sold it to them they would smash it down right away and build a new very large house.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

osc said:


> That Vancouver property is so cheap because is in a cheaper area. Check out this West side mansion at $2.5M :
> http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9924493&PidKey=1017480759


This seems to be the asking price of the 82x200 lot, with the 7400 sq.ft plans.


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## marina628 (Dec 14, 2010)

We to answer the OP question no I would not buy these places , I would rent before I pay that sort of money for these dumps .But I also would take a $20,000 a year cut in pay to move to somewhere outside the city to avoid all the rat race.Actually that is what we did in 2001 ,my husband quit his job went to work for family business earning less but his blood pressure went down , we ended up buying a bigger home for cheaper than we sold old one for and my kids have had a nice place to grow up .
When we were single we loved down town and occasionally we still go down for a weekend but for myself as I get older I just want to get away from the city.
My daughter is 18 ,she and her friends take the train into the city at least once a month ,they love it ,go to the ROM and probably been everywhere by now.


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## osc (Oct 17, 2009)

dogcom said:


> Where I live in Richmond BC I have asian realtors asking me all the time if I would sell and they have buyers ready to buy now for $888,000 plus after commission. After they buy it if I sold it to them they would smash it down right away and build a new very large house.


That's the trend. Speculators are building multi-family houses in single family residential zones. In other areas, they are replacing single family houses with apartment buildings.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

The funny thing is osc these huge houses are bought and they are not multi-family. Only a couple of people live in almost all of them. These people are either very well off or professionals like doctors or lawyers.


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## osc (Oct 17, 2009)

dogcom said:


> The funny thing is osc these huge houses are bought and they are not multi-family. Only a couple of people live in almost all of them. These people are either very well off or professionals like doctors or lawyers.


Nothing wrong if that would be the case. 
But I doubt the average doctor or lawyer would afford a $2M house (the average income for doctors is little over $200k, I don't know about lawyers but I'd be pissed off if it were more than that).
Most of the new large houses that I see on MLS have 2 or 3 kitchens.


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## kubatron (Jan 17, 2011)

Just because a house is listed for sale doesn't mean it will sell.


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## wwwater (May 28, 2009)

The vancouver property is in that area near Rupert, it's an old neighbourhood and an old house. $1M sounds like a reasonable price for that place. If it was in a nicer area, you're looking at $1.2M for a property of that condition or $1.4M in a better location and slightly better condition.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2009)

kubatron said:


> Just because a house is listed for sale doesn't mean it will sell.


And the price listed is the asking price....


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