# what is your investment average so far ?



## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

Sold 40% of my stocks and converted to laddered GIC. Checked my performance summary today and it is around 15%/yr over 20 years. Wondering is this the average you expected ? What is yours so far ? Like to know how I do compare with you people.


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

So you just sold stocks that you held for over 20 years at 15%?

If yes, you must have a dire need of cash or why would you incur that capital gain?

If not, why would you care how much OTHER PEOPLE make? If can be 1000% like bitcoin, you were not part of it anyway. 

So I don't understand your 20 year performance thing.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

jacofan said:


> That meant your portfolio doubled in value every 5 years for 20 years. So if you started with 100,000k you'd have a cool 800k now. Good job.


Doesn't 100K at 15%/yr for 20 years total 1.6M?


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## MoreMiles (Apr 20, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Doesn't 100K at 15%/yr for 20 years total 1.6M?


I think your math makes more sense... this also means, for 100k, there will be $1.5M in capital gain tax to lose. It hurts but it is a good problem to have.

I did not realize the OP is 73 years old (Ben, born in 1941?). So maybe he did gain 15% for 20 years... and it is finally time to sell. So not too many posters here have that kind of experience. Kudos.


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## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

Hahaha, yeah, I am 73. Can't fool you guys  
Wish I started with $100,000. My investment is all in my RRSP/RRIF. There is no capital gain I need to worry about. But, I am forced to withdraw and pay tax each year from now on.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Even if you didn't start with 100K, getting a 15% avg for 20 years is great, much above the normal IMO ... maybe you should change your name from Ben1491 to LuckyBen!


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## uptoolate (Oct 9, 2011)

15% per year over the LAST 20 years is fabulous! (You're not using Beardstown Ladies' math are you?) Great work.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

Just curious how you calculated 15% over 20 years? 

Does this account for additional contributions over several occasions in that time or a single lump sum 20 years ago that you've parlayed into 16X the original amount?


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

15% over 20 years including at least 3 major crashes? Impressive.


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## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

lightcycle, how did you come up with 16X ?
May be I mislead you people. The figure I got is from the summery of my self-directed plan, 14.8% since inception (1996). I contribute to RRSP each January and bought stocks and held. That goes on for 15 years until I retired.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Ben1491 said:


> lightcycle, how did you come up with 16X ?


If you had an average 15% annual return (assuming compounded if you aren't taking money out), over 20 years you use the simple formula:

Future value = Present value * (1+% annual return)^20

With 15% over 20 years, you end up with the Future value = approx 16x present value.

Of course that the simple formula as it doesn't take into account future contributions.


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## Spidey (May 11, 2009)

I notice the returns reported on this site tend to be far above average. 15% per year over 20 years would be in the Warren Buffett camp of investing. Possible but not likely. I don't suspect that the OP is being purposely misleading as he strikes me as honest but I think a mistake in calculations in possible - someone mentioned Beardstown Ladies.


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## slacker (Mar 8, 2010)

12% since 2010


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Ben1491 said:


> lightcycle, how did you come up with 16X ?
> May be I mislead you people. The figure I got is from the summery of my self-directed plan, 14.8% since inception (1996). I contribute to RRSP each January and bought stocks and held. That goes on for 15 years until I retired.


Okay, that makes more sense: I think what you're reporting is your total Gain/Loss percentage since the beginning, not your annual average rate of return.

The gain/loss% is a very different figure from the annual average rate of return: it's the difference between the book value and the market value of your investments. At first glance you might be disappointed in 15%, because it makes it sound like you've only made 15% total since 1996. But the book value is not just what you put into your investments out of your own pocket: it also represents any dividends or other income from your investments that you reinvested. So some of your growth is represented in the book value and the rest is represented in the market value.

Personally, I think the gain/loss figure is much more relevant for retirement investments than your annual average rate of return anyway. Who cares what the annual rate was? What you should care about is your total return; in fact the percentage isn't as important as the dollar figure. If you can calculate what your average annual expenses would be in retirement, a portion of that will be funded by your principal, but some of it will be funded by your growth. If you get enough growth to fund at least one year of retirement, that's good. If you get enough growth to fund many years of retirement, even better. I measure my growth in retirement years.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Ben1491 said:


> May be I mislead you people. The figure I got is from the summery of my self-directed plan, 14.8% since inception (1996). I contribute to RRSP each January and bought stocks and held. That goes on for 15 years until I retired.


I suspect this is portfolio gain which incorporates contributions, but is not investment returns. If so, the figure is meaningless to anyone other than the OP.


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## BoringInvestor (Sep 12, 2013)

To provide some context, and answer the OP's question, I started my index-tracking ETF portfolio in December 2012.

Since that time I'm up a total of 21.25%.
My annual rate of return (XIRR Excel function, using today as the ending date), is 15.94%.

Anyone interested can follow my monthly updates here: http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/16247-Couch-potato-lazy-portfolio-tracking-my-progress.


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## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

Hmmm... I am getting real confused now. I really need help to understanding this. Just checked my account performance summery. Average since inception (1996), my account-14.8%, while S&P/TSX omposite-8.63% and S&P500-6.83%. Year to date is 7.83%, last 12 months is 20.66% and last 3 years is 8%. And, a few from the prior year average: 1996 +41%, 1997 +55%, 1999 +20%, 2005 +33%, 2007 -8.0%, 2008 -32% and 2009 +61%. In between are single digit gains and loses. I guess the number 14.8% is the sum of these prior years divided by 18 years of my plan. What are all these mean ? Let's look at the number of the last 12 months which I did not contribute. Is that mean this 20.66% is the total gain from the principal ? Say, 100k a year ago would become 120k ?


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## BoringInvestor (Sep 12, 2013)

Ben1491 said:


> Hmmm... I am getting real confused now. I really need help to understanding this. Just checked my account performance summery. Average since inception (1996), my account-14.8%, while S&P/TSX omposite-8.63% and S&P500-6.83%. Year to date is 7.83%,* last 12 months is 20.66%* and last 3 years is 8%. And, a few from the prior year average: 1996 +41%, 1997 +55%, 1999 +20%, 2005 +33%, 2007 -8.0%, 2008 -32% and 2009 +61%. In between are single digit gains and loses. I guess the number 14.8% is the sum of these prior years divided by 18 years of my plan. What are all these mean ? *Let's look at the number of the last 12 months which I did not contribute.* *Is that mean this 20.66% is the total gain from the principal ? Say, 100k a year ago would become 120k ?*


Yes.
If you and your employer did not deposit any money into your portfolio over the last 12 months (from summer 2013 to today), and your return is 20.66%, then your balance should be 20.66% higher over that time.

Is it?


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## BC Eddie (Feb 2, 2014)

I have been tracking my portfolio (professionally managed) since the summer of 2006. It is 60% equities (mostly Canadian) and 40% bonds. I have an annual compounded return of 5.6%. And , yes, I do control for monies added and there have been no withdrawals. I think this is pretty good as the returns for the equivalent period for the indices are:
TSX 1.2%
S&P 500	3.8%
Dow 3.2%


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## Kropew (Nov 24, 2013)

BC Eddie said:


> I have been tracking my portfolio (professionally managed) since the summer of 2006. It is 60% equities (mostly Canadian) and 40% bonds. I have an annual compounded return of 5.6%. And , yes, I do control for monies added and there have been no withdrawals. I think this is pretty good as the returns for the equivalent period for the indices are:
> TSX 1.2%
> S&P 500	3.8%
> Dow 3.2%


I don't know where you took these percents for the indices... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S&P_500


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## BoringInvestor (Sep 12, 2013)

Kropew said:


> I don't know where you took these percents for the indices... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S&P_500


Ya, I'd check your figures BC Eddie.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

My returns have been excellent, particularly when I moved a LIRA to a brokerage account in 2008, and made some adjustments that worked out quite timely.
Also my riskier postiions have always been limited, so when they went south, the damage was limited.

I'm not going to post a number to brag, but I've done quite well compared to the TSX & S&P over the last decade. 
More importantly I'm quite comfortable and aware of my risk tolerance and haven't lost any sleep due to market gyrations.


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## BC Eddie (Feb 2, 2014)

Sorry, got sloppy rushing to copy my numbers in from my spreadsheet

As I mentioned, I am posting results for the past eight years so I am using specific index numbers from Dec 31, 2006 to July 16, 2014. Looking back at my data I see I did err, given that the closing numbers changed quite a bit around these dates (and we are only part way through 2014). Below are the details. I am interested to learn what others calc for this. But I am sticking to my original point that I believe my portfolio results still beat all three indices over the same period (of course my results do include dividends, but again they are also 40%bonds) .

If I am wrong here I really am interested in learning from my mistakes.


.................12/31/2006.........07/16/2014.....................My amended Calc
TSX...............12,873..............15,226........................2.2% per year compounded (over approx 7+ years)
S&P 500.........1,418................1,981.........................4.5% per year
Dow..............12,463...............17,138.......................4.5% per year


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## Islenska (May 4, 2011)

I'm just glad to be back in the black from 08

Big fan of DRIPS and dividend stuff, provides a steady stream going forward!


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## namelessone (Sep 28, 2012)

Simple return and compounded return are two different things. I am sure you know which number it is if you truely obtained that kind of return for 20 years. 15% / year compounded is very possible. 20%/year over 20 years is very hard to get. 15% simple return for 20 years translates into a compounded return of 7.18% which is closer to index return which is 10% compounded during the past 20 years. 


My compounded return since 2007 is around 10%. First five years were trial and error but still beat the TSX index. After 5th year, it just gets better. 2012: 11%, 2013: 40% and 2014 year to day is only 2.7% so far. In the last 3 years, I used a bit of leverage sometimes, around 10 to 20% leveraged. 

BTW. I started investing in stocks in 2007 and had no prior education or knowledge on. I am self-tought by reading great books( which cost me only around $500) and thinking.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

Ben1491 said:


> Sold 40% of my stocks and converted to laddered GIC. Checked my performance summary today and it is around 15%/yr over 20 years. Wondering is this the average you expected ? What is yours so far ? Like to know how I do compare with you people.



Hi, Ben

I think having sold 40% is going to be a job well done when looking back several years from now.

My primary focus has never been how much I average over a year. Instead it has been on catching the once or twice in a lifetime setups where life changing profits can be made. I study the DNA markers & become familiar with the part of the river where the waterfalls are. Most of the river I don't understand I only play in the part where I have the most confidence in. Trying to aim for a precise percentage of gain is a game I do not play.


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## namelessone (Sep 28, 2012)

You excluded a dividend of around 2.x%/year for TSX. 




BC Eddie said:


> Sorry, got sloppy rushing to copy my numbers in from my spreadsheet
> 
> As I mentioned, I am posting results for the past eight years so I am using specific index numbers from Dec 31, 2006 to July 16, 2014. Looking back at my data I see I did err, given that the closing numbers changed quite a bit around these dates (and we are only part way through 2014). Below are the details. I am interested to learn what others calc for this. But I am sticking to my original point that I believe my portfolio results still beat all three indices over the same period (of course my results do include dividends, but again they are also 40%bonds) .
> 
> ...


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## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

Thank you all for the info and advice.
I don't know how all of you think the figure I gave is the average performance for one investment. Don't you all gradually add to yours when you have more cash just like I contributed to my RRSP each year and invest. I do not track my investments except following the summeries of my account provided from my brokerage. To be exact, the 14.8% I gave is the average annual compound rate of return for 18 yrs (should have give this in the very beginning of my post). 
Ok, I have gone through summeries of my account and did some calculations (the numbers are not true but in porportion).
Totoal contribution over 18 yr is 100k. Total sum in the plan at the end of last month is 300k. Don't get me wrong, I am quite satisfied with what I have done so far. Just curiosity that drove me to ask for how I did compared with you all since I have started to rebalance my porfolio towards some less risky investments.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Islenska said:


> Big fan of DRIPS and dividend stuff, provides a steady stream going forward!


Me too  Usually I DRIP whatever I can... For me total return is less important than a dividend stream.... Total return it's a "virtual money" , in a good week it can be up 50K and in a bad week down 50K.... but dividends income steadily and constant going up ....


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## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

gibor said:


> Me too  Usually I DRIP whatever I can... For me total return is less important than a dividend stream.... Total return it's a "virtual money" , in a good week it can be up 50K and in a bad week down 50K.... but dividends income steadily and constant going up ....


Well, 90% of my investments are dividend stocks. Although I do not 'drip'. I buy more when I have more cash and choose the right moment. Usually it recovers more than the commission.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Ben1491 said:


> Totoal contribution over 18 yr is 100k. Total sum in the plan at the end of last month is 300k.


$100K / 18 = $5555.56 average contribution per year.

Let's assume that you contributed $5555.56 on January 1st every year starting in 1996.

The spreadsheet below calculates your compounded annual return using XIRR formula. 










10.23% is excellent, but is quite a bit less than the 15% you cited.


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## cannew (Jun 19, 2011)

Ben1491 said:


> Well, 90% of my investments are dividend stocks. Although I do not 'drip'. I buy more when I have more cash and choose the right moment. Usually it recovers more than the commission.


Commissions are never recovered. One can say I bought a stock low and its up 10% or 15%, but you still paid the fee and it gone. I'm with gibor, I rarely look at the market value of my portfolio and really don't care if it's going up or down. It's the income (dividends) my portfolio generates and if it's growing as expected. If it does grow than I know the value also grows. 

I highly recommend drips for non-registered accounts and especially those with limited funds to invest.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

cannew said:


> I highly recommend drips for non-registered accounts and especially those with limited funds to invest.


It's really doesn't matter if it's non-registered account , registered or TFSA , when I swithc my RRSP to RIF , I partially gonna stop DRIPs and just get minimum payments from dividends


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## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

GoldStone said:


> $100K / 18 = $5555.56 average contribution per year.
> 
> Let's assume that you contributed $5555.56 on January 1st every year starting in 1996.
> 
> ...


Just checked my account, I forgot to add 8% that I was forced to withdraw at the end of last year, to the total in the account. But, still won't change the too much from your spread sheet formula I think. I also checked my contributions. I transferred(consolidated) 2 large amount of fund from my other RRSP plans to this in yr 2000 and 2001. And, I stopped the contribution after 2009. Would this affect the result ?
Anyway, the figure I gave is from my brokerage web site. How they got this figure compare to yours may be come from a different formula.
However, do you have time to do another calculation on my TFSA summery ? I maxed out first week of January every year. The total contributions is 26,000. This morning I checked, the total in my account is 48,400. The compound annual return is 16.19%. Just wondering if the result of your calculation is closed to this. Thanks.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

If you maxed out in the first week of January every year, then the total contributions should be 31,000, unless you didn't do it this year. If you missed this year it would be 25,500 so I'm not sure how you got 26,000. 

Anyway, if it was 25,500 then your rate of return was 18.9%. If it was 31,000 then it was 14.9%.


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## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

cannew said:


> Commissions are never recovered. One can say I bought a stock low and its up 10% or 15%, but you still paid the fee and it gone. I'm with gibor, I rarely look at the market value of my portfolio and really don't care if it's going up or down. It's the income (dividends) my portfolio generates and if it's growing as expected. If it does grow than I know the value also grows.
> 
> I highly recommend drips for non-registered accounts and especially those with limited funds to invest.


Thank you for the advice. I do not 'drip' is because 75% of my dividend stocks is in one stock (almost all eggs in one basket ). It would give me more than 100 shares every time I get paid. It seems to me it is better for me to pick a favourite time to add more shares. However, I usually use this cash to add to my 10% short term investments. Although I often got kill by these 'short term' investments  By the way, all I am talking about is in my RRSP/RRIF. I 'drip' my non-registered account.


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## Ben1491 (Jan 13, 2012)

Spudd said:


> If you maxed out in the first week of January every year, then the total contributions should be 31,000, unless you didn't do it this year. If you missed this year it would be 25,500 so I'm not sure how you got 26,000.
> 
> Anyway, if it was 25,500 then your rate of return was 18.9%. If it was 31,000 then it was 14.9%.


Sorry, my bad, it is 31,000. So there is a difference (14.9% vs 16.19%) between yours and my brokerage firm.
Anyway, it really does not matter much. I am quite satisfied for what I have done so far.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Just Google "compound intertest calculator" and you'll find some to do rough calculations like for those above. For more accurate or complex investments you'll likely need a spreadsheet to do it.

Here's an rough example (used online calc) for your TFSA,

Initial 5,000
Yearly Addition 5,000 (Misses out the extra 500 in the last year)
Years 6
Rate 8.5% [Just keep on changing the rate until you hit your target amount]

Total = 48,459

Using the same for your other investment,

Initial 5,555.56
Yearly Addition 5,555.56 
Years to grow 18
Rate 9.75% 

Total = 300,854


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Ben1491 said:


> Just checked my account, I forgot to add 8% that I was forced to withdraw at the end of last year, to the total in the account. But, still won't change the too much from your spread sheet formula I think. I also checked my contributions. I transferred(consolidated) 2 large amount of fund from my other RRSP plans to this in yr 2000 and 2001. And, I stopped the contribution after 2009. Would this affect the result ?


Of course it would. Front-loading the contributions lowers the return.

I don't know your real numbers, so here's a hypothetical example:

Contribute $20,000 in 2000 and 2001.
Contribute $5000 in all other years from 1996 to 2009.
Withdraw $26,000 at the end of 2013.
Final balance: $300,000
Compounded return: 9.45%


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