# how come airlines....



## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...are now suddenly allowed to operate at full capacity, while ALL OTHER BUSINESSES are NOT?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

M-O-N-E-Y.

OK, I'm being cynical but really, it is all about there being no other real choice. Either you have an airline that can make a profit or you have no airline. Since the airlines are not set up to make a profit without filling their planes, they have no other choice but to fill them.

If the government were to say, 'no, you cannot operate a business in Canada that does not follow the same rules as for any other business where people are in a confined space.' ie. restaurants etc. Then the government would be saying to them, 'sorry, you're out of business.' That option simply doesn't exist for the government either.

The consumer however does have a choice. You can accept the risks and fly or you can choose to simply not fly until there is a viable cure or vaccine. Whether enough people will choose to fly before then to keep the airlines in business remains to be seen. I for one have no intention of flying anytime soon.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Well, some would be willing to pay, but the market would shrink even more significantly than it already has as prices rise. And these firms have a lot of infrastructure to pay for that would need to be shed to keep a much smaller operation viable.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

andrewf said:


> Well, some would be willing to pay, but the market would shrink even more significantly than it already has as prices rise. And these firms have a lot of infrastructure to pay for that would need to be shed to keep a much smaller operation viable.


Only time will tell but it may well be that air travel will end up back where it was when only the 'well off' could afford to fly. At what level of 'well off' that might be who knows. 

In some places they are suggesting that as many as a third of all restaurants and bars will be out of business even if they are allowed to open fully again. 








Momofuku Nishi, Locanda among some of the restaurants that won't reopen after the pandemic
 

24/7 Tempo has assembled an updated list of 50 of the most popular eating places, in some 26 states and Washington D.C., that will not be reopening.



www.usatoday.com













Ontario restaurants will struggle to reopen their doors post COVID-19, survey says


Most food service businesses in Ontario will not have enough cash flow to successfully reopen their doors when COVID-19 restrictions are eased, a new survey says.



toronto.ctvnews.ca





The same may happen with airlines and I suspect if so, it will also happen to hotels. The whole travel industry may change. It all depends on how many of the consumers are willing to take the risks involved with any of these kinds of businesses, where they are not a necessity but a choice.









Almost half world’s airlines will fail in coming weeks without aid, air carrier group says


‘Act and act quickly,’ the International Air Transport Association urges world governments, stressing the need for an immediate bailout of US$200-billion




www.theglobeandmail.com


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

I’m betting a lot of airlines get nationalized.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

...soo....airlines cannot make a profit without filling their planes?
or do they just make MORE profit by filling their planes?...


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

jargey3000 said:


> ...soo....airlines cannot make a profit without filling their planes?
> or do they just make MORE profit by filling their planes?...


No proof, but I suspect they need to very close to full to make money. I’ve never been on a plane less than 90% full.....although I’m sure it exists more often the pan they like. 
I think they may run some routes at 50%.....just so they can say they offer hourly flights between X and Y. (Say Toronto-Montreal).


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> ...soo....airlines cannot make a profit without filling their planes?
> or do they just make MORE profit by filling their planes?...


Just look at financial reports. Airlines make razor-thin margins. They have to use a lot of tricks to have competitive ticket prices and yet still make a profit, including things like overbooking flights in anticipation of some people not showing up. So, airlines could potentially be profitable if they only sell say, half the seats. That would require ticket prices to roughly double (maybe more, maybe less) and for that to be enforced industry-wide. If an airline voluntarily stops selling half their seats, their competitors will undercut their fares and they cannot be profitable. Hence why you see borderline anti-trust actions like AC and Westjet announcing changes to policy at the same time.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Money172375 said:


> I’m betting a lot of airlines get nationalized.


 The fed is going to own everything


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

jargey3000 said:


> ...soo....airlines cannot make a profit without filling their planes?
> or do they just make MORE profit by filling their planes?...


They need somewhere between 70-80% seats sold to break even jargey3000. 

A new poll has also shown the majority of Canadians are not willing to fly on fully seated flights.








Coronavirus: Majority of Canadians not comfortable flying since seat distancing axed, poll says - National | Globalnews.ca


Seventy-two per cent of Canadians surveyed by Leger and the Association for Canadian Studies say they're not comfortable flying since a decision by some airlines to relax their own in-flight physical distancing requirements.




globalnews.ca


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

The only Canadian airline flying directly to Mexico is Montreal to Cancun! Must be a money-maker? Only tourists are allowed on the beaches there.


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## JohnTobbs (Jun 24, 2020)

Some places are more essential than others, I guess. Depends how essential they think it is.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

There is no social distancing on an airplane. The way they recirculate the air everyone is going to get a load of whatever anyone else brings aboard. The only way to prevent infection, is to allow only one passenger per plane which is not very practical.


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## JohnTobbs (Jun 24, 2020)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> only one passenger per plane


LOL One person per room. One person per house. One person per city. One earth inhabitant per earth.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

JohnTobbs said:


> LOL One person per room. One person per house. One person per city. One earth inhabitant per earth.


Sshh don't let any politicians hear you say that, they might get ideas.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> There is no social distancing on an airplane. The way they recirculate the air everyone is going to get a load of whatever anyone else brings aboard. The only way to prevent infection, is to allow only one passenger per plane which is not very practical.


 daughter is flying tomorrow
Westjet agent told her the air filtering system they have is equivalent to what they use in hospital operating rooms.
hope he's closer to the truth!


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I hope so too. Don't forget your masks.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

jargey3000 said:


> daughter is flying tomorrow
> Westjet agent told her the air filtering system they have is equivalent to what they use in hospital operating rooms.


This is true. The air filters on the planes are excellent.

Make sure she has both a mask and a backup mask in case one gets soiled. On the flight, she shouldn't talk to anyone (due to spit & droplets).

Most importantly, at check-in time, and then AGAIN at the airport, make sure she goes to the seat selection (you can do this on those little screens) and choose either a window or aisle seat with nobody sitting beside you. If that means paying an extra $20, pay it.

And failing that, once she's on the plane, if someone does sit immediately beside her, she should ask the flight attendant after take-off if there is somewhere she can sit where there will be nobody beside her.



Rusty O'Toole said:


> There is no social distancing on an airplane. The way they recirculate the air everyone is going to get a load of whatever anyone else brings aboard. The only way to prevent infection, is to allow only one passenger per plane which is not very practical.


It's not true that recirculating air on the plane means everyone gets the virus.

Planes use excellent HEPA filters. The recirculated air is perfectly clean, once it goes through the filtration system.

So it's NOT true that flying is only safe with only one passenger. Flying will be safe as long as there is enough distance between immediate passengers. Adequate spacing.

You can still basically fill a plane with people and safely fly long distances. The HEPA filters catch the viruses and keep the air clean. We just need to ensure each person is far enough away from the next so that they don't spit / cough / sneeze on each other.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> This is true. The air filters on the planes are excellent.
> 
> Make sure she has both a mask and a backup mask in case one gets soiled. On the flight, she shouldn't talk to anyone (due to spit & droplets).
> 
> ...


Anyone who decides to fly will of course self-justify their decision to do so. Self-justification is an amazing thing. People can and do self-justify anything. Of course that does not mean their justification actually holds water when put to the test.

If you fill a plane as in the past and someone has the virus, there is a decent chance that they will pass it on to someone else on the plane. That's the reality. Sitting near someone with the virus for hours is the same regardless of where you are or whether the air is filtered or not.

Let me ask this, if you knew someone had the virus would you sit next to them in ANY circumstances? I don't think so. The only difference is that if you don't know whether someone has the virus or not, you can ASSUME they don't or you can ASSUME they do. I vote to assume they do and act accordingly. That is the safe course of action.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> Anyone who decides to fly will of course self-justify their decision to do so. Self-justification is an amazing thing. People can and do self-justify anything. Of course that does not mean their justification actually holds water when put to the test.
> 
> If you fill a plane as in the past and someone has the virus, there is a decent chance that they will pass it on to someone else on the plane. That's the reality. Sitting near someone with the virus for hours is the same regardless of where you are or whether the air is filtered or not.
> 
> Let me ask this, if you knew someone had the virus would you sit next to them in ANY circumstances? I don't think so. The only difference is that if you don't know whether someone has the virus or not, you can ASSUME they don't or you can ASSUME they do. I vote to assume they do and act accordingly. That is the safe course of action.


when does your position on flying change? Vaccine, reliable treatment, no cases for xxx time? Just curious. Asked a family member if he would travel to Turks now, and he Said yes. Turks wants to see a negative covid test taken within 72 hours of entry.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> when does your position on flying change? Vaccine, reliable treatment, no cases for xxx time? Just curious. Asked a family member if he would travel to Turks now, and he Said yes. Turks wants to see a negative covid test taken within 72 hours of entry.


My position will change if one of 3 things happen. A proven cure; a proven vaccine; a change in airline seating that reasonably isolates each passenger.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

I should also have included when the government travel advisory changes from 'essential travel only' to 'safe to travel' and when normal travel medical insurance covers Covid19.

There are far too many 'what ifs' right now in regards to flying. What if your family member flew to Turks right now and then a few days after arriving, started to exhibit symptoms? What then? Try to hide the symptoms and get on the next plane home to be treated in Canada? Or take a test, it comes back positive and so he cannot return to Canada, has to be quarantined in place for 14 days and perhaps hospitalized. If he has to be hospitalized, he has no insurance coverage and so will have to pay for care himself. How much will that cost, can he afford it? How good is the healthcare in that location if he does need it? If he survives and is finally given the all clear to fly home, he will need to buy a new ticket to get home obviously. 

There are various countries that are allowing tourists entry. But none that I know of are saying that if you become positive during your stay, they will pay for your care.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Money172375 said:


> when does your position on flying change? Vaccine, reliable treatment, no cases for xxx time? Just curious. Asked a family member if he would travel to Turks now, and he Said yes. Turks wants to see a negative covid test taken within 72 hours of entry.


I will be comfortable flying again only once I am assured that the middle seat is empty, and when I see that both regions I'm travelling between have a good control on cases. That doesn't mean they have no COVID19, but rather, the growth of cases seems under control.

I've been on 3 flights since COVID19 and in all of them, there was lots of spacing between passengers and it was between BC <> MB. The two provinces had the case growth under control. This felt safe to me, I really had no complaints.

So I am *not* waiting for a vaccine, or for no cases.

Both WJ and AC now fill the middle seats, so I've stopped buying plane tickets. I would not buy a domestic ticket and I certainly won't be flying to another country.

I am considering buying an extra seat for myself, if it assures that I can keep the second seat with me. I also plan to wear a face shield.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> I should also have included when the government travel advisory changes from 'essential travel only' to 'safe to travel' and when normal travel medical insurance covers Covid19.
> 
> There are far too many 'what ifs' right now in regards to flying. What if your family member flew to Turks right now and then a few days after arriving, started to exhibit symptoms? What then? Try to hide the symptoms and get on the next plane home to be treated in Canada? Or take a test, it comes back positive and so he cannot return to Canada, has to be quarantined in place for 14 days and perhaps hospitalized. If he has to be hospitalized, he has no insurance coverage and so will have to pay for care himself. How much will that cost, can he afford it? How good is the healthcare in that location if he does need it? If he survives and is finally given the all clear to fly home, he will need to buy a new ticket to get home obviously.
> 
> There are various countries that are allowing tourists entry. But none that I know of are saying that if you become positive during your stay, they will pay for your care.


I didn’t know you’d be denied entry if you have tested positive. Do you have a source...I’d like to learn more.

I think the lack of travel medical insurance is going to be death of the snowbirds. Are elderly Canadians going anywhere near Florida or Arizona without it? ......Even when the case counts become ”flatten”. Italy is still seeing hundreds of new cases a day, and they’re celebrating that.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> I didn’t know you’d be denied entry if you have tested positive. Do you have a source...I’d like to learn more.
> 
> I think the lack of travel medical insurance is going to be death of the snowbirds. Are elderly Canadians going anywhere near Florida or Arizona without it? ......Even when the case counts become ”flatten”. Italy is still seeing hundreds of new cases a day, and they’re celebrating that.


By 'denied entry' do you mean denied entry to Canada or denied entry onto the plane by the airline? It is the latter I am talking about. All airlines are told to check passengers for symptoms and deny BOARDING to any suspect individuals. 


https://tc.canada.ca/en/initiatives/covid-19-measures-updates-guidance-issued-transport-canada/air-operators-managing-travellers-during-check-procedure-international-airports



That's not new, it's been in place for months already. You can't get on a plane flying to Canada if you have symptoms. Some people have purposely tried to mask their symptoms. 


https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/how-sick-canadian-travellers-are-masking-covid-19-symptoms-to-get-through-airport-screening-1.5508276











Canadian airlines screening passengers for COVID-19


Air Canada says it is screening passengers for illness at airports, and if you have symptoms, you may not be allowed to fly.



bc.ctvnews.ca





What did you think Money172375? That if your relative got sick while in the Turks, he could just get on a plane with other people and expose them all to the virus? I'm amazed at you saying, 'I didn't know you'd be denied entry', as if you should be allowed to board and go home. Did you really think that would be acceptable?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

james4beach said:


> I will be comfortable flying again only once I am assured that the middle seat is empty, and when I see that both regions I'm travelling between have a good control on cases. That doesn't mean they have no COVID19, but rather, the growth of cases seems under control.
> 
> I've been on 3 flights since COVID19 and in all of them, there was lots of spacing between passengers and it was between BC <> MB. The two provinces had the case growth under control. This felt safe to me, I really had no complaints.
> 
> ...


You have been flying and whether consciously or subconsciously, you will self-justify that decision. Having an empty seat next to you does very little to reduce your risk. It may make you FEEL safer but in fact it only gives you a few percentage points less risk if that.

It's not safe to fly right now, that's the bottom line whether they seat every second seat or all the seats. You need physical distancing from ALL the passengers on the plane to have a significant degree of safety. That means no one behind you or across the aisle from you, etc. 

The biggest risk is in being in close proximity (less than 2 metres) from anyone for a prolonged period of time. Prolonged meaning more than a minute or two. Sitting on a plane with say 5 people within less than 2 metres from you for several hours means you are at risk. You cannot avoid that if flying. Period.


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## Money172375 (Jun 29, 2018)

Longtimeago said:


> By 'denied entry' do you mean denied entry to Canada or denied entry onto the plane by the airline? It is the latter I am talking about. All airlines are told to check passengers for symptoms and deny BOARDING to any suspect individuals.
> 
> 
> https://tc.canada.ca/en/initiatives/covid-19-measures-updates-guidance-issued-transport-canada/air-operators-managing-travellers-during-check-procedure-international-airports
> ...


thats not what I thought. Just wanted to know if in fact, you can be denied entry. My “amazement” is that you would be denied entry. I never mentioned being denied boarding. 

people Will get creative, and yes, will hide their symptoms to get home, 

I’m thinking there will be large groups of snowbirds who are going to choose to drive to the US this winter (assuming the border is open) and will also choose to drive back quickly if they start feeling sick. I’ve already had conversations with snowbirds to this effect. online shopping (including grocery) options in the US are a lot better than where I live now. Social distancing might actually be easier.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Money172375 said:


> thats not what I thought. Just wanted to know if in fact, you can be denied entry. My “amazement” is that you would be denied entry. I never mentioned being denied boarding.
> 
> people Will get creative, and yes, will hide their symptoms to get home,
> 
> I’m thinking there will be large groups of snowbirds who are going to choose to drive to the US this winter (assuming the border is open) and will also choose to drive back quickly if they start feeling sick. I’ve already had conversations with snowbirds to this effect. online shopping (including grocery) options in the US are a lot better than where I live now. Social distancing might actually be easier.


A Canadian citizen cannot be denied entry into Canada. If you want to talk about what people with no social conscience or ethics want to do or are likely to do, that is another subject entirely.

At present our border is closed and will remain closed for a while I am sure. I cannot see us allowing some idiot Canadians who want to go to Florida, the current world epicentre of the pandemic, the opportunity to do so. It sounds like you yourself are thinking of acting in this irresponsible manner. I hope not.

This virus is not going away and as the Director General of WHO said, 'we will not be returning to the normal of before in the foreseeable future.'








Coronavirus: no return to normal 'for the foreseeable future', says WHO – video


Director general criticises leaders of countries where 'mixed messages' have led to a breakdown in trust over measures to limit the spread of Covid-19




www.theguardian.com





People need to start being so damned selfish and realize their actions can and will affect others, not just themselves. 

IF IF IF, we were to allow Canadians to snowbird this winter, my response on their return would be to put them into a mandatory quarantine for 14 days at THEIR expense and IF they tested positive, have them cared for at THEIR expense. The idea that if they started to get sick they would scurry back into Canada for free healthcare is the height of selfishness.


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