# Backyard Chickens



## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

My husband and I love eggs and we are considering keeping backyard chickens. We can't keep them (legally) where we are currently, but we will be moving in a year and I'm curious if anyone else here keeps backyard chickens? Do you find it's cheaper than buying good quality eggs, or is it more expensive due to feed costs, shelter etc?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i posted recently about backyard hens but i don't think they thought it was funny. Apparently the movement from home-grown vegetables to animals now goes far beyond chickens. In toronto, says the globe n mail, the largest illegal animal recently being raised for human consumption was a goat. Also in toronto, rabbits are legal because they're classed as pets.

the new york times contemplates the long life of hens after their laying fertility ends. One could wind up with 80 or 90 elderly ladies and only about a dozen actively laying rhode island reds. The normal solution for this would be an abattoir but problem is that hardly any are left. There was a picturesque photo gallery of functioning ny city abattoirs. Gah. You sure you want to get into this Addy ??


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Nope, I'm not sure, just considering it. It would drive me nuts to have a bunch of old hens around!


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Spent a lot of time possessing chickens on the family farm. Egg layers are tough old boots when the laying days are over. Your biggest problem will be over supply of eggs and fresh eggs look a lot different than store bought. 

Even 6 hens is 6 eggs each day 7 days a week.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks Oldroe. We may not keep chickens, but its good for me to find as much info out as possible then decide. I was thinking of keeping 2-3 hens at the most. We are a family of three so any more than this may lead to wasted eggs. I've had lots of farm eggs so I'm aware they aren't as pretty looking inside as store eggs, but I prefer the taste... in fact I find most store bought eggs (unless they are real free range ones) are tasteless.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Try reading up on avian influenza. Usually originates in countries where large numbers of people raise chickens, increasing risk of a strain crossing the species barrier.

See this CDC pamphlet on salmonella risks.
www.cdc.gov/healthypets/pdf/intown_flocks.pdf


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

There are a zillion resources online for raising backyard chickens, but you might find this one handy for starters:

http://www.gatewaytovermont.com/thefarm/chickens.htm

I have a few friends who keep small flocks of chickens; one of them also had guinea fowl for a few years but those things make a LOT of noise. I do think the economics are questionable; same goes for most small vegetable gardens. I wouldn't go into it thinking it was a money-saving proposition, but rather as a way to get those delicious free-range eggs for yourself and probably a few friends. I agree that fresh-laid eggs taste different, and while I don't know if free-range eggs actually taste better to me than those from caged birds on feed, it's certainly a satisfying experience to eat them. I used to buy my eggs from a woman whose chickens had free run of her yard (and even her house, she was pretty eccentric) and I've never tasted scrambled eggs or omelettes as good as the ones I made with those eggs.

It's amazing the stuff that people will keep in their urban or suburban backyards. I have a friend who lived for 10 years in Silver Spring, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, DC, and his neighbours had two pigs as well as a flock of chickens.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

There was a story about this very thing on the news recently. The fellow, either in WPG or Calgary, is doing it. It's messy work though, and you gotta do it 12 months per year, regardless of weather. What I mean is you have to go out in the freezing cold and do the manual labour. Most white collar city folk couldn't be bothered for what it costs to buy eggs.

Best idea would be to find a farmer in the country who sells them. We used to do it all the time, same thing for honey and milk.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> Best idea would be to find a farmer in the country who sells them. We used to do it all the time, same thing for honey and milk.


To each her own but that's what I'd do for eggs just to avoid the mess that chickens leave around.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

I think you have to be into the whole process and lifestyle of it. Some people find caring for livestock and poultry fascinating and involving; others just find it a nuisance and a chore. 

A surprising number of people in New York City keep bees to make honey, which amazes me: honey is so cheap that it doesn't seem worth the effort and expense, but that's not the point for these people. It's the process that counts. I've extracted honey and it is indeed fascinating (though hot; you have to keep the room really hot so the honey flows out in the centrifuge), but once was enough for me. 

A friend of mine in Vermont keeps bees and sells his honey; another friend taps maple trees and sells his syrup. Neither one is doing it for the money though, they just enjoy the process.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> Best idea would be to find a farmer in the country who sells them. We used to do it all the time, same thing for honey and milk.


+1 I grew up on a farm and we sold fresh milk, eggs, apples, corn, pumpkins, squash and they all make groceries stores seem tasteless


I can't imagine trying to raise chickens in a city lol. Your neighbors would hate you

It's been on the news about about angry neighbors complaining etc


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Nothing like popping the bread in the toaster and running for a tomato.

Most people or a lot try livestock when they move to the country theirs a lot of work same with gardens.

Around the GTA you can go to places like the Woodville Sales Barn and get real farm fresh.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Tomatoes are one of the vegetables it makes sense to grow yourself. You get an embarrassment of tomatoes for a few months at the end of summer, and they taste better than anything you could buy at a store or even a farmers market (I've peaked behind the curtain--farmer's markets are not what you think they are). Also, some fresh herbs are worthwhile as well, since buying them is a pain.


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## CanadianCapitalist (Mar 31, 2009)

brad said:


> I think you have to be into the whole process and lifestyle of it. Some people find caring for livestock and poultry fascinating and involving; others just find it a nuisance and a chore.
> 
> A friend of mine in Vermont keeps bees and sells his honey; another friend taps maple trees and sells his syrup. Neither one is doing it for the money though, they just enjoy the process.


Agree and I'm not trying to judge. To each his or her own. Just that keeping livestock isn't something that I fancy doing. Bee keeping, on the other hand, sounds fascinating to me.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Try carrots, eat them all summer and just before frost cover with 3-4 bales of straw. Have had carrots fresh from the garden into the 2nd week of Jan.

Another point if you go to a farm market and the vendor has peaches and plums and you are east of Toronto that vendor goes to the food terminal. Pick a vendor that only has local stuff, better change they picked that morning.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Oldroe said:


> Another point if you go to a farm market and the vendor has peaches and plums and you are east of Toronto that vendor goes to the food terminal.


That explains something. Every summer we get "Ontario peaches" here at the markets in Montreal, but they don't taste anything like peaches to me. They either taste like water or like some foul mixture of preservative chemicals. They arrive rock-hard and tend to transform overnight into a mouldy, mushy mess. I've given up on trying to find edible peaches here.


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

There is also some problems with fraud: passing off foreign produce as local. You will see this especially at 'sketchy' places of business like roadside stands and farmer's markets.


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## Alexandra (Apr 3, 2009)

My cat would love to have your chickens as neighbors. Yum...


Seriously, "free-range" chickens in the city will be either implausible, or very expensive. You will have to cage in your entire backyard (even creating a wire roof), or the multitude of roaming, predatory animals who exist even in the city will soon turn your chickens into lunch.

That's if they survive visit from the city inspector, sent out by your neighbors annoyed by the constant clucking and the smell.

Better to find a supplier of farm-fresh eggs and just buy them when you want them.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

brad said:


> I think you have to be into the whole process and lifestyle of it. Some people find caring for livestock and poultry fascinating and involving; others just find it a nuisance and a chore.
> 
> A surprising number of people in New York City keep bees to make honey, which amazes me: honey is so cheap that it doesn't seem worth the effort and expense, but that's not the point for these people. It's the process that counts. I've extracted honey and it is indeed fascinating (though hot; you have to keep the room really hot so the honey flows out in the centrifuge), but once was enough for me.
> 
> A friend of mine in Vermont keeps bees and sells his honey; another friend taps maple trees and sells his syrup. Neither one is doing it for the money though, they just enjoy the process.


Actually Brad, honey isn't THAT cheap. If you go to the store and buy the real stuff it's actually quite pricey. 

I know some beekeepers out in the country, last year I got a 4L ice cream pail for $20. I transferred most of it to yogourt containers and froze it, then a small amount in a mason jar for daily consumption. Lasts a long time, only real downside is you get 4L worth and need to have enough smaller containers to store it in. Far better than anything I've ever purchased in a store. Trouble with stores now (and this applies to the eggs and tomatoes and everything else too) is you're getting meat from corn-fed cows from these huge concentrated feed lots where cleanliness and safety are a problem. So yes, I'm a fan of buying food directly from the farmer if you can find one that is selling you the real deal. A lot of these roadside stands and farmer's markets, I often wonder if we're getting the local stuff we think we are. Mennonites are good to buy from also if you live and conduct business out in the country and can get to know them. A lot of this is word of mouth. Need to get off facebook and out of the city and talk to humans in person, make friends in the rural areas etc.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Alexandra said:


> My cat would love to have your chickens as neighbors. Yum...
> 
> 
> Seriously, "free-range" chickens in the city will be either implausible, or very expensive. You will have to cage in your entire backyard (even creating a wire roof), or the multitude of roaming, predatory animals who exist even in the city will soon turn your chickens into lunch.
> ...


If you want free range, I suppose thats what you would call it. There's been a big media blitz here in Winnipeg about a couple who wants the city to pass a bylaw allowing residents to keep hens in their yards and interestingly enough you can have a hen-pen thats not huge, built up with roosts and fairly open (wire enclosure). I would still want a bigger yard than I currently have, but fresh eggs would be lovely.


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## Oldroe (Sep 18, 2009)

Have a rooster announces it's presents every morning should keep the neighbor smiling.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Oldroe said:


> Have a rooster announces it's presents every morning should keep the neighbor smiling.


Our neighbours had chickens when I was growing up and I actually loved hearing that rooster crow every morning (even at 4am in June). Whenever they went on vacation it was my job to feed the chickens, and the rooster was so aggressive that I had to enter the enclosure holding a baseball bat. I used it, too. My neighbour said the rooster was bad-tempered because his mother was a light-bulb -- these had been incubator chicks.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

When I was a kid we had about 6 chickens in a shack. A friend of ours gave us a pair of swans. My sister and I first put the swans in the basement (NOT RECOMMENDED) the smell was horrible and I can assure you swans are not house trained in any way. So as soon as my parents came home the swans went to the chicken house. 

So swans are pretty aggressive and get strange ideas. One day my sister and I went to the poultry hut and somehow the swan escaped. It ran/escaped my sister and I so we had to get my mom who was in her housecoat. 

The swan kept running away from us and we were all chasing the stupid thing. Then it decided that HWY 11 (the street in front of the house) was a good escape route. There is a lot of very fast traffic on the HWY and a transport came along and almost ran over the swan. I still have a very clear picture in my mind of my mom running up hwy 11 in her housecoat after this swan. After the truck passed she caught it and dragged it back to the chicken hut. It was very funny. 

That spring the swans went to the lake and that fall they took off never to be seen again. 

Keeping chickens is ok but they stink. That's why it's no go for the city. I remember watching this documentary about PETA where the lady had "saved" chickens from the hen house. She had at least 10 chickens running around her house. Did I mention that they were not house trained and smell bad? So that was a bit of a shock to me.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Very interesting discussion. I think I have to agree with those who say this is a no-go for the city. When we are children we tend to me much more impressionable and accepting of the world around us. But now in my adult life, if I've just mortgaged myself for the next 25 years on a $200K property, the LAST thing I want is some neighbors setting up a chicken coup in their yard and scaring away future potential buyers of my house. Even as a buyer if I was looking and came across a house with neighbors that had chickens or other animals in their yard, I would move on. There's a time and a place for everything, and the place for chickens is on country farms - buy one of those if you're interested in chickens and other livestock. If you can't do that, then don't inflict your desires upon your urban neighbors. There is potential for disaster on so many fronts here. Prepare to make enemies out of your now-friendly neighbors if you do this.


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## Taxsaver (Jun 7, 2009)

Chickens, and rosters, are now officially welcome in Vancouver. 

http://www.chickensinvancouver.com/


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Great. So these people will pay for my lost real estate value and moving costs if I don't desire this stink and noise next door?


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Hopefully this will be like the law allowing women to go bare breasted in public. Since it passed I haven't noticed hordes of rampaging breast parades or anything so hopefully 3 people will get chickens in Vancouver and stop bothering city council.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Hehehe there's already way more than three chickens in Vancouver! Now at least most of them will be kept legally.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

There's a fun little video here from the Today Show about urban chickens in New York City:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/02/urban-chickens-the-latest_n_274987.html

Note that roosters aren't allowed because of the noise. Probably the biggest misconception about chickens is that you need a rooster to produce eggs. 

And here's my inevitable link to a New York Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/dining/19yard.html


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

> “I cried,” she said. “I buried it. It was very sad. But then I realized that I could do it again and eat it.”


Ahh city slickers



> Anyone Can Build a Tub-Style Mechanical Chicken Plucker


I'd like to see this.. plucking chickens was one tedious job


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## canehdianman (Apr 7, 2009)

Wow, if my neighbour set up a chicken coop and I had to deal with the chicken poop smell and the noise of roosters, he would quickly have a flaming chicken coop.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

canehdianman said:


> Wow, if my neighbour set up a chicken coop and I had to deal with the chicken poop smell and the noise of roosters, he would quickly have a flaming chicken coop.


So you would kill chickens and commit a criminal act because you didn't like the smell of something? Thats warped dude.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

What's warped are people who think it's okay to selfishly inflict themselves on those around them. Livestock in the city, unbelievable.


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

the-royal-mail said:


> What's warped are people who think it's okay to selfishly inflict themselves on those around them. Livestock in the city, unbelievable.


Yes, sadly too many find it unbelievable.

I gather you are saying you are okay with people like canehdianman who would set fire to someone's property because of some noise from chickens. Hens make WAY less noise than dogs. Roosters, I can understand people being concerned about, but often people objecting to "chickens" lump roosters and hens together.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

I want a horse 

I really like horses and I'm on a 60 x 120 lot. I don't live next to Canehdianman so my barn won't catch fire. The horse will eat my grass and it will save me money on gas for my lawnmower as well as CO2 emissions.

Horses smell less than chickens. I can also use the manure for my garden. 

This is a great plan


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Berubeland said:


> I want a horse
> 
> I really like horses and I'm on a 60 x 120 lot. I don't live next to Canehdianman so my barn won't catch fire. The horse will eat my grass and it will save me money on gas for my lawnmower as well as CO2 emissions.
> 
> ...


Heheehe great post. I'd say go for it, as long as you aren't inflicting cruel and unusual punishment to the horse by having it in such a small lot. I've never kept a horse before, (grew up with them neighbouring our fence however) but I imagine a horse would not be happy restricted to a 60 x 120 area. Perhaps someone with actual hands-on knowlege of caring for horses can verify this.

If it is cruel, then it's a tough choice. Cruelty to horses or cruelty to chickens... since mass-production egg layers are much worse off than backyard egg-laying hens any day. And this of course is where most of our tasteless supermarket eggs come from. Same for poultry.

But be aware horses to make more noise than hens. Pleasant noises in my opinion, but still louder than hens clucking.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

_but I imagine a horse would not be happy restricted to a 60 x 120 area._

Just take it for regular neighbourhood walks, spreading pure organic fertilizer as you go.


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

Plenty of horses especially expensive one live out their days in a 12' by 12' stall. 

Of course I'd ride it around fertilizing.... unless I can convince it to lay some eggs. 

I had a client who told me that dogs were absolutely gross but pet goats kept inside were very common where he comes from. Apparently they are very friendly. 

So you all see where the conversation about back yard chickens leads. 

People will even start keeping pigs in their house... except that's already here to stay. Not sure if you guys know but those "miniature" pot bellied pigs weight like 400 pounds fully grown.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> Of course I'd ride it around fertilizing.... .


Great idea! And don't forget to do it during rush hour in the city and insist that you have the right to be on the road. Then defend your actions by saying that you are being green.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

i have a century-old tar-and-gravel roof on a house on a tiny downtown lot. I am thinking to install a green thatched roof with a goat named heidi.

(signed) 
yodellay-ee-ee-yodellay-ee-oh


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Wow, backyard chickens are even making the news in Montreal now:

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/chronique...04/29/01-4275301-la-ville-un-peu-fermiere.php

(in French)


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

you city people are funny. i think more people should move to the city...


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## hboy43 (May 10, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> What's warped are people who think it's okay to selfishly inflict themselves on those around them. Livestock in the city, unbelievable.


All of society selfishly inflicts themselves on those around them. The only question is which side of the fence you are on given any particular issue. Do you want to selfishly inflict the banning of firearms, or selfishly inflict the allowance of firearms?

That is a big part of why I moved to the country. So fewer people would selfishly inflict their desires on me. Didn't work though, McGuinty found me.

Like most things, it isn't the particular "hobby" that is the problem, but the individual practicing it.

It is too bad we can't repeal all the laws that ban everything and replace them with one law that bans one thing: stupid people.

As to the particulars of chickens, I have not done them yet. I did pigs for three years, but decided I won't again until I have better infrastructure, ie a fenced in field. It also lost money compared to just buying a pig from the butcher. The main goal was however preping new garden areas, which it did splendidly.

I do plenty of gardening. As someone said, most city people won't do anything which looks like work any more. I pay myself about $2/hour in this activity. But I would argue that what we buy in stores isn't food any more. 
So if my veges are 5 times the taste/nutrition/freshness of the store stuff, then we are up to $10/hour.

hboy43


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## Berubeland (Sep 6, 2009)

hboy43 said:


> It is too bad we can't repeal all the laws that ban everything and replace them with one law that bans one thing: stupid people.
> 
> hboy43


I needed a laugh of the day, thanks hboy, very well said. 

Unfortunately as Teddy Roosevelt noted "I can't believe that a full 50% of people are less than average in intelligence"


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Berubeland said:


> Unfortunately as Teddy Roosevelt noted "I can't believe that a full 50% of people are less than average in intelligence"


Wow, that's charitable! I would have said 90%...I guess that would be based on median rather than mean ;-)


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## wheel (Jun 22, 2010)

There's a kerfluffle around here about backyard chickens. Personally I'd love to have a few meat birds. I wouldnt' though, for two reasons:
1) neighbours, wrong as they are, would complain. While my attitude to that is 'tough, it's my backyard', there is a line that can be crossed when you're in suburbia. Chickens, if kept properly should be allowed, but it'd make _everyone_ upset. Also, I don't want to be that one weird neigbhour raising chickens. I'd have to grow a beard I guess .
2) Roosters do actually crow bright and early. if you're rooster is crowing loud enough to wake me up at 5 am every single day, it's going to have a short life expectancy. 

What I have done however, is built one of those square foot raised bed gardens. Really just to try it out, but my son loves it so we did it again this year. He'll eat the vegetables from it, and gets excited about the growth.

Same reason we tap a maple tree in our backyard. We get enough syrup for about two family pancake meals  but it's a lot of fun with the kids, away from the TV.

Both of those are perfectly acceptable urban 'farming' things we can do - and that are fun for kids.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

Some more advice and tips on urban chickens:

http://www.grist.org/article/food-chicken-expert-gail-damerow-answers-newbie-questions/


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## steve41 (Apr 18, 2009)

Since our illustrious mayor announced that backyard chickens would be allowed in Vancouver, there have been exactly 5 (count em) five applications for a permit. (Only slight less than the number of cyclists using his new 'green' bicycle lanes at any point in time)


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## Addy (Mar 12, 2010)

Does anyone know off hand if the number of permits issued is public information? I know when I issued city permits (Vancouver) it was public knowledge but I'm not sure if thats the case for all permits issued. I'm going to call them on Friday is thats the case. Five wouldn't surprise me, given the Bylaw is so new, and with the time of year it's really to be expected the applicant numbers would be low.

Re: The cycling routes - thats odd, when we cycled there recently there were many cyclists. I guess things are improving.


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