# CPR training



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

With ageing family members, I think it would be good to take a proper CPR training course. Not an online course but something with real, hands-on practice. Some of these courses use advanced dummies which can indicate the correct amount of pressure to apply, etc. I would like a professional to give me feedback on the technique, and want to spend at least a couple of hours in training.

CPR is a pretty amazing and simple, life-saving technique that can dramatically improve % chance of surviving a heart attack.

Has anyone taken a course like this recently? If so, from where?

I contacted St Johns Ambulance, which does training, but was very confused by the courses offered. They kept pointing me to online courses, but I want hands on practice. If someone has taken this through SJA, can you share *which* course you signed up for? They have about 20 or 30 different courses and I can't figure it out.

I would also encourage others here to take the training, or a refresher course. Maybe we can compare notes here and figure out good courses.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Let me suggest something: how about a CMF group challenge: *can we get at least 5 people to sign up and complete CPR training?*

If you've taken the training before, a refresher course will count. Post replies when
- you're interested
- have signed up
- have finished the training

Heart attacks are most likely to occur in the winter months, especially into December and the year end holidays. Now is a great time to learn the skill.

Myself... I'm interested, but haven't signed up yet.


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## kelaa (Apr 5, 2016)

My first time being trained and certified was in middle school. Then years later I paid to do a course with a private company. I believe most of the fellow students were nursing / human kinetics students.

I would note that in addition to the physical act of CPR or first aid, formal training helps you to react and handle the traumatic situation. Even if you did not need to perform the aid (there were other capable people) or you were incapable of effectively providing aid due to your own injury for instance, training can help you deal with the traumatic event. It might be as simple making the emergency phone call or delegating tasks to others.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

The available courses changes depending where you were.
Health unit, City programs, employment offices, small business offices
When I take it, it's typically a 2 day course if it has CPR, it should also have an AED module.
Not really required, AEDs are so easy, but it might help make people more comfortable, then you'll laugh at how easy it is.

https://www.southwesthealthline.ca/listServices.aspx?id=10173
http://www.londontraining.on.ca/first_aid.htm


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

We do the St John Ambulance CPR certification and then depending on the job additional training. I assumed all jobs require that as a bare minimum? At least in some provinces it is required for all employees.

You should also at least have a basic first aid kit at home and/or in your vehicle. I've been the first responder to a few vehicle accidents and it's very disappointing how many people just drive by.

It's kind of annoying taking the course every few years, although some small things change some years, but I'm surprised people have never done it. I did it in high school maybe even middle school


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s, do you recall which one you took at SJA? They have a large number of courses with subtle differences. What's making this a bit tricky for me is that these courses are usually coordinated through employer.

I'm trying to do this on my own, and I don't think it's a typical way to book the course.

I took the training back in high school, but no job has required it since.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I believe CPR Level C + AED would be the closest.

It's usually a 2 day course if I remember - impossible to cover all chapters in that time but you get to keep the reference guide (heck nowadays you should just download an app so you have it all if you ever need a reference) There's a multiple choice test that is more of a formality than a test - more of a practical course

I've done some of the different courses and they basically focus on more tailored scenarios, emphasize different chapters or expand on the crisis management part if I remember. I think you'd get the most bang for the buck in the first 2 days


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## nobleea (Oct 11, 2013)

m3s said:


> We do the St John Ambulance CPR certification and then depending on the job additional training. I assumed all jobs require that as a bare minimum? At least in some provinces it is required for all employees.l


I believe it's 1 in 10 employees has to have first aid and CPR out here. We usually do much higher than that to account for different work schedules, vacations, out of office, etc. But certainly not everyone in the office.


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## lonewolf :) (Sep 13, 2016)

nobleea said:


> I believe it's 1 in 10 employees has to have first aid and CPR out here. We usually do much higher than that to account for different work schedules, vacations, out of office, etc. But certainly not everyone in the office.


 One company I worked for trained everyone even if you already had first aid & CPR . The reason being if someone needed it on the job & the company paid for it then you had to use it according to them, If the company never paid for the training then according to them the person trained in the first aid did not have to use it.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

A good idea indeed james4beach. I took some advanced First Aid courses including CPR through work although it is now some years back. I also took some more advanced courses as part of my sailing certifications. You may need to go beyond first aid when you are on a sailboat in the middle of an ocean. What that course covered was in some parts scary. Obviously, it is a good idea for anyone to have some First Aid training and I applaud your intent to do a refresher.

I would like to add another consideration. Nowadays, defibrilators (AEDs)for use by the public can be found in many places. This is a relatively new thing and even those who feel fairly confident in terms of CPR training might want to consider adding AED training if they haven't already done it. You can find where these public AEDs are located, online quite easily and it is good to know at least where they are near you.

For example in our little town of 3000, there are 3 AEDs located. There are Registries where you can register AEDs in your town. 
Here is Ontario's. http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/aed/


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

https://doctorskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/09/does-cpr-save-lives.html

This is old but I have seen some very current statistics that support this. Even CPR performed in a hospital has low survival or low ' return to a normal life' survival stats.

Most of the propaganda you see about how great CPR is, is promoted by places that provide training for a cost, or the heart and stroke foundation who have an obvious bias. Note none of these places give any stats about survivability or return to normality.

But even so, if I have a heart attack, I want you pumping on my chest in the hope I will be among the 2% or so that will have a normal life after.

I have advanced first aid training and CPR - C level. Most CPR taught now is hands only - no breathing for the patient. You likely have about an 80% chance of breaking a rib or two if done on an elderly patient at the correct pressure. (about 2 inches of compression - to the cadence of 'staying alive' or 'another one bites the dust':apologetic 
But better a little too deep than not. To compress 2 inches takes about 60 pounds of force on an average adult which is a surprising amount of force and tiring at that cadence. You will likely be tired after a minute or two.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Yeah, the data seems interesting.
CDC says 90% survive outside hospital die, but CPR can improve odds 2-3x, but that doesn't hit the 45% survival rate claimed by the Heart Association (linked to by the CDC as the source)
https://www.cdc.gov/features/learn-cpr/index.html
https://cpr.heart.org/en/resources/cpr-facts-and-stats


So it looks like it goes from very bad to merely bad rates. 
Thing is even if you do CPR right, they're likely going to die anyway.

I'd be glad to land in that nonzero group that survives, even with a few broken ribs.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the background info. I signed up for a full day (8 hour) classroom course with St John Ambulance for $93. They call it:

Basic First Aid, CPR Level C & AED


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I did the training and have my certificate now. Does anyone here want to do it next?

Here's a review of the St John Ambulance course (Basic First Aid, CPR Level C & AED) 8 hour classroom training:

First, I really think it's worth doing it. A good investment. I haven't done any training like this since highschool and this seemed much more comprehensive than what I had in the past. They cover all kinds of emergency first aid... choking, bleeding, heart attacks, both children & adults, how to give CPR, how to use the AED (defibrillator) machine. I liked the dummies that St John Ambulance had. Apparently they offer similar resistance to a real human torso. There are lights that give feedback on whether you are applying enough pressure.

Probably very helpful to encourage correct technique.

They also offer a mostly online course where you just go into the classroom for a final test. I think this is fine if your skills are up to date, but I don't think that would be a good way to learn. *I recommend the full classroom option*. We really had a lot of instruction time, including pairing up for choking response exercises, and plenty of time on CPR technique.

The AED machines are interesting, and they are appearing in more places. Let's say someone has collapsed, is unconscious and lifeless, not breathing. You would call 911 and start giving CPR... the CPR technique is what buys the person time by circulating some blood and giving oxygen (the instructors emphasized that the person will likely only be saved when the ambulance arrives, you're just buying time).

In cases you suspect it's cardiac arrest (stopped heart) -- e.g. older/at risk person or someone complaining of chest pain before collapse -- CPR is where you start, waiting for the ambulance. While doing CPR, hopefully another person brings the AED machine. This is only on an unresponsive person that isn't breathing.

You hook up the electrical pads, and the machine speaks out instructions. Keep doing CPR until the machine tells you to step away from the person. The AED machine is measuring heart rhythms from the person, and it's trying to *diagnose specific heart rhythms*. * If * it finds one of those rhythms it knows about, then it can jolt the heart -- hopefully starting it again.

It may give a jolt, and then you have to keep giving CPR because the jolt may not have knocked the heart back into regular rhythm. Or it may not even find the kind of cardiac signature that it's built to respond to.

Anyway I found it very interesting. It does not blindly just shock a person, it's actually _looking for specific heart attack signatures_ and then jolting the heart if it thinks it's treatable that way. Otherwise you keep the electrodes hooked up and just keep giving CPR.

Apparently the AED can dramatically increase survival rates, assuming they are used properly, and when appropriate (they only help for cardiac arrest).


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

twa2w said:


> Most CPR taught now is hands only - no breathing for the patient.


Our instructor today taught us the method _with_ breathing. She explained the logic for why they often teach the no-breathing method:
a) people are afraid of catching diseases
b) no-breath method seems to get more participation from bystanders, people don't hesitate as much
c) there is an argument that not pausing for breaths means better continuous compressions

You _can_ do CPR without breaths. It's also valid, and is better than doing nothing. If it's a stranger or an icky situation, yeah, don't put your mouth on them. Just do chest compressions.

In our instructor's opinion *CPR is far more effective with the breaths*. She said if this is a family member or someone we know, we absolutely should use breaths. She only taught CPR including breaths. The breaths into their mouth bring oxygen into the lungs, which is vital.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

They give us a CPR face shield during the training. I carry it in a small Adventure Medical kit in my day back everyday, including on flights.

I added some medical shears, israeli bandage and the most commonly used band-aids/moleskins/ibuprofen. I have a larger kit in the car and a medium sized kit on the motorbike.

Most of Canada has a Good Samaritan Law that protects the provider of reasonable assistance to someone in distress. Whereas Quebec being on civil law has more of a duty to rescue system.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> I did the training and have my certificate now.


Good job j4b! 

So because of this thread I'm now aware of these AED devices and saw them in our local malls this past week.

Along with training I wonder if a few other things would help,
1> Include an Ambu bag with AED machines.
2> Have a smartphone App that shows the nearest AED to your current location. *

* Edit: There might aleady be an app created, will have to check these out!


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

cainvest said:


> 2> Have a smartphone App that shows the nearest AED to your current location. *
> 
> * Edit: There might aleady be an app created, will have to check these out!


You got me interested, so I googled and found this app which seems good:
https://www.pulsepoint.org/pulsepoint-aed/


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Installed the "staying alive" app but it seems to be incomplete. It didn't show any of the AED units in our local malls.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Spudd said:


> You got me interested, so I googled and found this app which seems good:
> https://www.pulsepoint.org/pulsepoint-aed/


Didn't install it (too many permissions required other than location) but some reviews say the same things, many missing AED locations.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

m3s sounds like a good kit. However since I mostly fly, I probably can't carry anything sharp. Maybe that means just face shield & bandages?

Regarding AEDs, I wonder how many people are trained in them. You have better chances of surviving cardiac arrest if you're near an AED. However, you also need someone to know how to operate it.

For example, if you have a heart attack while at the gym / public rec center / swimming pool -- and if you go into cardiac arrest -- it seems to me this would be a relatively safe environment. They're probably going to have an AED and someone will probably know how to do CPR + use the AED.

If someone is in a high risk category for heart attacks, it might not be such a crazy idea to hang out in areas that have AEDs. Including hanging out in public.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> m3s sounds like a good kit. However since I mostly fly, I probably can't carry anything sharp. Maybe that means just face shield & bandages?
> 
> Regarding AEDs, I wonder how many people are trained in them. You have better chances of surviving cardiac arrest if you're near an AED. However, you also need someone to know how to operate it.
> 
> ...


My 7 year old is intellectually capable of operating an AED. you just took the course, they're trivially easy.

The reality is that there is the ability to actually accept that an incident is occuring, and having the fortitude/emotional strength to go and provide car.


Hanging out where an AED is? why not just carry one around?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> m3s sounds like a good kit. However since I mostly fly, I probably can't carry anything sharp. Maybe that means just face shield & bandages?
> 
> Regarding AEDs, I wonder how many people are trained in them. You have better chances of surviving cardiac arrest if you're near an AED. However, you also need someone to know how to operate it.
> 
> ...


I think you may be thinking about it too much. My kid was CPR, first aid and AED certified at 11. She didn't think that she needed 'training' in it, but was glad she saw what it looked like. 

The biggest thing in these types of situations is if you get someone who is going to know how to act in the emergency. If you don't do it frequently, people tend to freeze. I run ALOT big meetings, I was CPR certified in my old company because the population was fairly old and there were a few occasions where someone had a heart attack or needed CPR. This was in an office environment. Most people aren't used to thinking emergency in an office, it was protocol to go over safety at the beginning of each meeting. This included emergency exits, muster point, assigning some one to call 911, someone to greet 911 and security, someone to get the AED (we knew all the locations), CPR/First aider. I am required to do something similar for when I volunteer at girl guides on over nighters. Its great that you had training, then next step is to take a moment when in gatherings to thing it through quickly. 

If someone is in a high risk for heart attacks then they should buy their own AED. At one time, Costco even sold them.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Plugging Along said:


> If someone is in a high risk for heart attacks then they should buy their own AED. At one time, Costco even sold them.


A clarification: they can't use one on themself. The person in cardiac arrest needs to have someone else use the AED on them.

I agree that the AED is simple to use, though I would not call it trivially simple. The AED is not designed to handle all forms of cardiac arrest and is probably not going to be very effective unless CPR is delivered as well. It's also very easy to hook it up wrong. If you put the probes in the wrong locations on the body (simple to get wrong under stress) or fail to make good contact with skin (like forgetting to shave body hair) it's not going to work.

But at home: yes, could be worth buying an AED. Then, make sure a few members of the households are trained in both CPR and proper use of the AED.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> A clarification: they can't use one on themself. The person in cardiac arrest needs to have someone else use the AED on them.
> 
> I agree that the AED is simple to use, though I would not call it trivially simple. The AED is not designed to handle all forms of cardiac arrest and is probably not going to be very effective unless CPR is delivered as well. It's also very easy to hook it up wrong. If you put the probes in the wrong locations on the body (simple to get wrong under stress) or fail to make good contact with skin (like forgetting to shave body hair) it's not going to work.
> 
> But at home: yes, could be worth buying an AED. Then, make sure a few members of the households are trained in both CPR and proper use of the AED.


Of course one cannot use it on themselves. However, I thought your comment of ‘hanging out in areas with and aed’. Seems a little too much. 

The AED is designed that there are very clear instructions on the machine, it will not send a charge unless it’s reads the signal. In these cases, if someone keeps a cool head and can respond under stressful circumstances they will be able to use the AED. For a person who doesn’t handle stress well, and doesn’t perform well under pressure, it won’t matter if they are trained or not. 

I find people that worry a lot and stress out about things, trying to over control every little scenario are the same ones that will freeze under pressure. I have seen it many times. For people that get really frustrated when things don’t go their way. They waste time over emotions than taking action. 

I have literally seen people panic in an emergency where they had a cell in their hands while someone was choking screaming that someone should call someone for hell. I had to yell at them to call 9–1-1 while I tried to help. I can tell who will be calm or not. I also know who I want helping me in an emergency.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> A clarification: they can't use one on themself. The person in cardiac arrest needs to have someone else use the AED on them.
> 
> I agree that the AED is simple to use, though I would not call it trivially simple. The AED is not designed to handle all forms of cardiac arrest and is probably not going to be very effective unless CPR is delivered as well. It's also very easy to hook it up wrong. If you put the probes in the wrong locations on the body (simple to get wrong under stress) or fail to make good contact with skin (like forgetting to shave body hair) it's not going to work.
> 
> But at home: yes, could be worth buying an AED. Then, make sure a few members of the households are trained in both CPR and proper use of the AED.


You do CPR, then see if the AED will fire or works, if it does, good, if not keep doing CPR.

I do think AEDs are simple, they're well within the capabilities of the typical 10yr old.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> m3s sounds like a good kit. However since I mostly fly, I probably can't carry anything sharp. Maybe that means just face shield & bandages?


I've flown many times with my adventure medical kit. I added the medical shears which aren't really necessary and they are TSA approved. You can carry-on any pointed scissors with blades under 4" but the whole point of medical shears is they don't even have the pointed tips


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

senife1990 said:


> Hi, I think it would actually be take to take a proper cpr training course. there is a great reference to take online courses for those who want certification with first aid and cpr certification. American cpr institute aims to make first aid and cpr training opportunities much more readily available.


In pre-COVID world, first aid courses were common and cheap. I'd definitely recommend taking one, with a refresher every few years.


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

Would never donate money to red cross their organization is corrupt. The course is good except for the promotion of the Red Cross. It would be better if Red Cross did not have a monopoly on CPR & first aid to by pass their promotional propaganda.


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## R. Austin (May 16, 2020)

I've had my CPR certs for the last 8 or so years due to requiring them for work. 

In case you didn't come across this during your research or the course didn't advise you. Your CPR certifications usually last for about 2-3 years depending on who you did it through. If you're keen to recertify again after that then you can take a re-certification course. This is usually half the time and way less money than the full course as it's just a refresher. However, you have to alternate recertifications with full courses as you can't do the recertify/refresher course two times in a row.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

An amazing story



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-doctor-saves-patients-heart-surgeon-cpr-hero-1.6242854


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ That 34 year old is super-duper-unbelievably lucky. Unknown heart defect with CPR performed and then heart surgery ... by the same surgeon! What are the odds? As miniscule as it is, still an odd.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

As a person who lived with atrial fibrillation for 30 years, the use of an AED can be challenging for some people whose heart is out of rhythm.

As they would tell me in the hospital, one of two things can happen. Your heart will go back into rhythm or it could cause a full cardiac arrest.

Due to the risk, I would always opt for the drug digoxin by IV instead.

As I understand it, AEDs are not designed to treat cardiac arrest, but some specific heart arrhythmia problems.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

sags said:


> As a person who lived with atrial fibrillation for 30 years, the use of an AED can be challenging for some people whose heart is out of rhythm.
> 
> As they would tell me in the hospital, one of two things can happen. Your heart will go back into rhythm or it could cause a full cardiac arrest.
> 
> ...


 ... so in effect an AED machine's primary function is to get the heart back on track to beat normally so that your blood circulate or get to the brain. In the absence of an AED device, CPR is the tool. 

Digoxin by IV - that would be a super quick fix. I thought those with an AF condition needs to be on the digoxin "pill for a lifetime".


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It used to be medications for life, which were a real pain in the butt because they didn't always work and I ended up the hospital to get IV treatment.

Now they do cardiac ablations, which is insert a wire into the heart through an artery, map the heart to see where the extra signals are bouncing around, and then burn that area with laser to stop them from bouncing all over, which cause the start and stop of heart beats.

I had it done a couple years ago and that was the end of the irregular heartbeats and medication.

As atrial fib is already an electrical problem in the heart, I wouldn't want to suffer an episode and have someone use an AED on me.

I think it is designed more for weak or slow but regular heartbeats.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> As I understand it, AEDs are not designed to treat cardiac arrest, but some specific heart arrhythmia problems.


It's means to treat certain forms of cardiac arrest due to arrhythmia

@Beaver101 the AED contains a computer that first analyzes, and is programmed to detect certain specific heartbeat patterns. There are only specific patterns that it will confirm are "shockable" and it only zaps in those cases.

Otherwise the AED will inform the operator that the person cannot be shocked, and CPR must be continued.

This article describes that there are two shockable rhythms called v-fib and v-tach. These are just two forms of cardiac arrest (which apparently have high % chance of survival), but it's all that an AED will recognize and act on. Unfortunately there are other types of cardiac arrest that the AED cannot help with.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Didn't know that an AED machine was that smart, to distinguish 2 specific types of heart rythmns, especially with a simple set of stick-on pads (okay, there're some electrical nodes on each). I'm must be really behind the improved technology.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

It appears an AED machine should not be used on a patient with atrial fibrillation, which is the most common form of heart arrythmia.

That is likely why doctors are reluctant to use them on such patients to reset the heart.

They use medications to slow the heartrate down hoping it will convert to normal sinus rythmn

Fortunately they can give cardiac ablations now that are almost 100% effective and no more medications needed.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> It appears an AED machine should not be used on a patient with atrial fibrillation, which is the most common form of heart arrythmia.
> 
> That is likely why doctors are reluctant to use them on such patients to reset the heart


Truth is that if someone collapses in public and is in cardiac emergency, isn't breathing, the situation is so serious --- imminent death --- that it's worth trying ANYTHING.

That's an important message at home too. If you're at home, and someone collapses, *isn't responsive*, and *they aren't breathing*, then you've got a life threatening emergency. Watch their chest and see if it's rising and falling. If they aren't breathing, call 911 immediately.

So you attempt CPR anyway, even though reviving someone this way is a long shot. The AED is worth trying as well since it improves the probability of survival... basically you try anything you can at this point until the ambulance arrives.

It's pretty rare for CPR to revive someone, which is what makes that Calgary story even more amazing. To find someone on a walking trail who's unresponsive, then perform CPR on them, revive them, is already incredible.

@MrMatt my concern with the technique (and I need a refresher course) is how to make sure it's safe and appropriate to do CPR. As I understand it, the most important thing is to check if they are breathing. CPR is only performed when a person isn't breathing.

I was out walking during the summer when I encountered a man who had collapsed on the street. I put on my gloves (which I luckily carry due to covid) and went to take a look at him. No response. I shook him, still no response. That's when I got worried, so I called 911 and the operator was pretty helpful. She said to poke him and yell at him again and see if he's responsive at all. After poking and shaking the stranger a while, I confirmed he was breathing and was able to move... that's not cardiac arrest. I believe it was heavy intoxication, drugs or alcohol.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> @MrMatt my concern with the technique (and I need a refresher course) is how to make sure it's safe and appropriate to do CPR. As I understand it, the most important thing is to check if they are breathing. CPR is only performed when a person isn't breathing.


No, only apply CPR if their heart isn't beating.
If they have a pulse, don't fight their heart with chest compressions.


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## Gruff403 (Jan 30, 2019)

MrMatt said:


> No, only apply CPR if their heart isn't beating.
> If they have a pulse, don't fight their heart with chest compressions.


I think it's great that a financial thread is touching on this. I want to make sure everyone has accurate information and I have taught first aid and CPR with both St. John and Red Cross for decades. The one constant is change and things we did 20 years ago were removed and are now back. (Back blows for clearing obstructed airways for a conscious casualty were out and are now back).
By all means take a refresher course as the techniques change. (Compression only VS Compression plus breathing)

A simple rule: If after opening the airway they are not breathing commence CPR and get an AED. If they are breathing the heart is beating. If they are not breathing the heart will eventually stop. We don't check for pulse anymore as part of the adult sequence as there were too many false positives. I do consider other signs of circulation such as movement, skin color and temp and nothing wrong with trying to find a pulse BUT the trigger to begin CPR is if they are breathing or not.

Brain damage occurs with a few minutes and the purpose of CPR is keep oxygenated blood flowing to vital organs until advanced support arrives.

I encourage everyone to update their first aid and CPR skills regularly. It's not if you'll need it but when!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

MrMatt said:


> No, only apply CPR if their heart isn't beating.
> If they have a pulse, don't fight their heart with chest compressions.


It can be very difficult to accurately detect a pulse. In my training, and in all the resources I read (check them out yourself) it always says to look at BREATHING as the key indicator.

The advice seems to be, if the person isn't breathing, and doesn't response in any way (no signs of life), you do CPR.

Now I see that @Gruff403 replied as well with the same. What Gruff describes is what I heard in my training as well. Breathing is a more reliable indicator than pulse.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

james4beach said:


> It can be very difficult to accurately detect a pulse. In my training, and in all the resources I read (check them out yourself) it always says to look at BREATHING as the key indicator.
> 
> The advice seems to be, if the person isn't breathing, and doesn't response in any way (no signs of life), you do CPR.
> 
> Now I see that @Gruff403 replied as well with the same. What Gruff describes is what I heard in my training as well. Breathing is a more reliable indicator than pulse.


Uhh no.
If there is a pulse you don't need to do CPR. It offers no benefit.

If there isn't a pulse, or you can't find it, and they aren't breathing you do CPR.
This is since the risk benefit ratio is skewed very heavily.

I understand the issue, and that the guidance has changed. But I wouldn't personally do CPR on someone whos' heart is still working fine.


As far as being difficult to accurately detect a pulse, yes it is.
But detecting a pulse and observing a strong pulse are different.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

A few university students performed CPR on this 77 year old when he collapsed due to a heart attack.

Saved his life.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ubc-okanagan-student-heart-attack-cpr-1.6475994


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## Gothenburg83 (Dec 30, 2021)

james4beach said:


> With ageing family members, I think it would be good to take a proper CPR training course. Not an online course but something with real, hands-on practice. Some of these courses use advanced dummies which can indicate the correct amount of pressure to apply, etc. I would like a professional to give me feedback on the technique, and want to spend at least a couple of hours in training.
> 
> CPR is a pretty amazing and simple, life-saving technique that can dramatically improve % chance of surviving a heart attack.
> 
> ...


I did a weekend St John Ambulance standard first aid - CPR C - AED course September last year in Oakville. I needed the certificate as a prerequisite for a PADI rescue scuba diver course. I thought it was enjoyable & reasonably comprehensive - but it's the one I've done mind you. I recall it was about 300 CAD.


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

I just re qualified for work, at a two day in office seminar for first aid and cpr. Trainer was kind of surprised we have two aeds per floor. 

I am one of the sort that like to work in the office, even if just 3 days a week these days.

Still company saw that I was an asset in aiding that we have enough first aiders and fire wardens to comply with legislation and insurance premium cost containment as we start to mandate all of our folks to spend time back at the office. 

Next milestone as as of 13 June 2022 you have to commit to at least two and maybe depending on your job, three days in the office every week. Not an issue for me, as I have been 3 days in the office since Sept 21, well before we were actually supposed to be at work as OH&S had not got revised policies written. 

That said, HR's and OH&S policies are still a work in progress. Particularly now that we are all hot desked and can technically go to 'the office' and never actually set foot in the same building as you worked in prior to COVID coming to town. I can now book a desk at one of about 14 different office sites around the GTA if I really felt adventurous. By Q1 2023 I should be able to book in at any of the more than 60,000 desks we have world wide. Some call that progress 

My whole building of 400 desks is slated to close by Oct 2023 if the hot desk with some remote work planners are to be believed. When I die I hope I can be reincarnated to work in an office that has walls and a door with my name on it, and an actual phone on the wall that can easily dial 911 and not appear to be somewhere else to the phone system.

Because given the current work environment I will not be working long enough for the current pendulum swing to get back to have even a desk to call my own.


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