# What is your monthly income in retirement?



## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

What is your *after tax *monthly income in retirement? The poll is for a couple, but if single, perhaps multiply by 1.5??

If you plan to retire in the next 2 or 3 years, please estimate your planned income.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

No one will likely vote unless voting is confidential (hidden). If it is set up that way....say so.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

This is the first poll I have attempted. I did not select "Display votes publicly." Are my settings correct to ensure confidentiality?


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I imagine so but only the Admin or Mods can confirm that I think.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

I should not have assumed it would be confidential. 

Admin/Mods, please delete the thread if the poll is not confidential.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

The way you have set it up will be anonymous.
It will simply say a number of votes for each category, but not any usernames.


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## gardner (Feb 13, 2014)

I answered based on the CRAs reconing, but most of that is DRIPs or is otherwise reinvested. I actually spend half of that.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

gardner said:


> I answered based on the CRAs reconing, but most of that is DRIPs or is otherwise reinvested. I actually spend half of that.


We are in the same boat. About two thirds of our income is reinvested.

Shifting from a lifetime of austerity, saving, working like an idiot, makes it very difficult to transition to more free spending in retirement. For me, I spent too little during my working years. There are trips I could have taken but didn't because they seemed pricey. Should have done more of that.

I apologize for not voting but I don't share this info.

I will share that we are spending more now than we ever have and it looks like we will be able to increase this dramatically. Again, keep in mind we are transitioning from a life of austerity. We just picked up a new car to replace a 14 year old car (still functioning perfectly).


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

We are about two years away from retirement and it will certainly be an adjustment going from saving to spending. We plan to ease into it as well as our retirement income will be higher than our current spend. We will be cautious, but at the same time, we want to make sure we enjoy the benefits of all those years of saving by spending more on travel, making our day to day life easier, gifting, donating, etc.


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## kcowan2000 (Mar 24, 2020)

We spent 2% of our portfolios in 2020 and will increase to 2.5% in 2022.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Gator13 said:


> We are about two years away from retirement and it will certainly be an adjustment going from saving to spending. We plan to ease into it as well as our retirement income will be higher than our current spend. We will be cautious, but at the same time, we want to make sure we enjoy the benefits of all those years of saving by spending more on travel, making our day to day life easier, gifting, donating, etc.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> We ran a tape on after tax total spend for the few years leading up to early retirement. We did not care about the categories, only the total number. Then we made assumptions about our income and expenses in retirement. Several of those assumptions turned out to be wrong. Inflation and investment returns among others. Plus a percentage for margins of error.
> ...


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## Sam Sun (12 mo ago)

Income now is higher than it was for 95% of my years of employment, and will continue unless my RRIF manager screws up.
Which means that using the RRSP was a mistake, but thinking at the time was - "How much will I save without an RRSP" - Answer; very little.


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## Tostig (Nov 18, 2020)

A good follow-up poll would be ask how much money and assets have you hidden in secretive overseas accounts and shell companies.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

We are one degree away from naked chat roulette.

I respect the people who freely share their financial geometry online. We are not Wired that way but I try to share what I can, so as to not be a parasite.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

I am 76 and my spouse is 72. As we age we are discovering that we don't need the income we are getting and as a result we are doing more giving and continue ti invest excess income. We could buy more things but the reality is we are trying to get rid of things . We are content with what we are doing.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

zinfit said:


> I am 76 and my spouse is 72. As we age we are discovering that we don't need the income we are getting and as a result we are doing more giving and continue ti invest excess income. We could buy more things but the reality is we are trying to get rid of things . We are content with what we are doing.


Ditto for us. At 70 last thing we need is more shiny things. We spent a number of years downsizing. Now complete we are trying to ensure that this accumulation business does not get the better of us. We still have china/crystal glasses in unopened boxes from our move 12 years ago. It can be a challenge when you have some basement storage space. Too easy to avoid making a decision.

The more years we get into retirement the more our thoughts and our desires turn to experiences rather than things. Given a choice between something like a new car or an extended trip to Africa, Australia ,or SE Asia, etc. we will take the travel in a heartbeat. 

My spouse still laughs about this. When we first met she had hardly been west of Toronto or east of Ottawa.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

Good discussion for us young guys to read.

I am always wondering what to do in the "spend now vs. spend later" decisions, as a 30-something.

It _does_ sound like many are advocating, in hindsight, a live well during your 30s-60s and live adequately during your later years approach, instead of the reverse.

If I don't lose my job and I get an inheritance that's worth "a whole house" by age 60, i.e., the status-quo and most likely scenario, then we're going to be exceptionally well off by my early retirement at age 55.

Even if I lose my job and the inheritance is very small for some reason, we'll be perfectly fine as long as me and/or my wife have some OK job, enough to pay the bills for the next 25 years, we just won't be rich.

The only way to get in real trouble is perpetual under employment forever, for both spouses, and no inheritances at all. 

Anyways my kids are under 3, so it really doesn't matter yet right now. But I constantly wonder what type of experiences and lifestyle I want for them from age 5-18... I really don't want to end up in this CMF $15k/month retirement club and regret it.


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## zinfit (Mar 21, 2021)

ian said:


> Ditto for us. At 70 last thing we need is more shiny things. We spent a number of years downsizing. Now complete we are trying to ensure that this accumulation business does not get the better of us. We still have china/crystal glasses in unopened boxes from our move 12 years ago. It can be a challenge when you have some basement storage space. Too easy to avoid making a decision.
> 
> The more years we get into retirement the more our thoughts and our desires turn to experiences rather than things. Given a choice between something like a new car or an extended trip to Africa, Australia ,or SE Asia, etc. we will take the travel in a heartbeat.
> 
> My spouse still laughs about this. When we first met she had hardly been west of Toronto or east of Ottawa.


We have travelled to our Texas winter home in both 2020 and 2021 and must say the covid retape is becoming a disincentive for travel. Agreed travel is our preferred option over buying stuff.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

zinfit said:


> We have travelled to our Texas winter home in both 2020 and 2021 and must say the covid retake is becoming a disincentive for travel. Agreed travel is our preferred option over buying stuff.


We did not travel during covid. We have been watching the numbers. The numbers and the practices are scary to us in some countries.

We are going to Portugal next month. The plan was originally to the Greek Islands, with Portugal a runner up. We took a hard look at the covid numbers and decided on Portugal. Maybe Greece in the fall. At the end of the day it is a crap shoot either way.

Our other issue was where to change planes. Not particularly interested in a UK or a US plane change. For us that implies a change in Toronto or Montreal We would do a day stopover in either city to visit relatives. Then we want direct flight to our destination country.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

peterk said:


> Good discussion for us young guys to read.
> 
> I am always wondering what to do in the "spend now vs. spend later" decisions, as a 30-something.
> 
> ...



Well I don't think anyone truly regrets $15K/month. However, it is hard in the middle of adult hood to find balance. Demands of family, work all clash. And you could be doing everything right, but still pull the short straw and lose it all. Being prepared hurts current lifestyle, but I don't regret making tough choices early on----rather I took them as challenges. For the responsible types, its only through the review mirror that you could say "I should have spent more". But that is only hindsight.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

afulldeck said:


> Well I don't think anyone truly regrets $15K/month. However, it is hard in the middle of adult hood to find balance. Demands of family, work all clash. And you could be doing everything right, but still pull the short straw and lose it all. Being prepared hurts current lifestyle, but I don't regret making tough choices early on----rather I took them as challenges. For the responsible types, its only through the review mirror that you could say "I should have spent more". But that is only hindsight.


Agreed it is very easy to look back sitting on $10-15k/month and say I wish I would have done things differently during life's journey. That is hindsight. 

I try to articulate moderation throughout life's journey when I am asked for my thoughts. Be cost conscious (not a spendthrift) during one's accumulating years of 30-55 in particular but enjoy the journey. There are a lot of cost effective ways to have enjoyable vacations, both national and international, cost effective sports and recreation activities that don't need the top tier equipment, there are ways to have a modest nearly new vehicle without breaking the bank or carrying a significant auto loan, the kids don't need designer clothing when Old Navy and the like will do, etc, etc. It is a lot more fun to hike the back country at age 30 than it is at age 60 and Disney World is way more fun with preteens and teens than it is as a grandparent. There are times to wait and times to just do it.

If one can do that and still fill one's TFSA room and a good portion of RRSP room, I'd suggest that would be a well balanced life.


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Tostig said:


> A good follow-up poll would be ask how much money and assets have you hidden in secretive overseas accounts and shell companies.


Let me be the first to answer. None.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Tostig said:


> A good follow-up poll would be ask how much money and assets have you hidden in secretive overseas accounts and shell companies.


None. 

I have made a good income during my working years and have paid more than my fair share of taxes. T4, T5's and T3's. No deductions other than an annual RRSP contribution.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

afulldeck said:


> Well I don't think anyone truly regrets $15K/month. However, it is hard in the middle of adult hood to find balance. Demands of family, work all clash. And you could be doing everything right, but still pull the short straw and lose it all. Being prepared hurts current lifestyle, but I don't regret making tough choices early on----rather I took them as challenges. For the responsible types, its only through the review mirror that you could say "I should have spent more". But that is only hindsight.


Your thinking and actions are sound. Focus on spending time with family and friends and putting your available funds towards experiences rather than material things (other than paying of your home). 

During our earlier years we drove older, but reliable, vehicles and took vacations closer to home. We focused on paying off our mortgage and then moving to the next house and paying it off. With no mortgage, our cash flow improved at the same time our income was also improving. We than began to spend more on travel and started to see the world, but stayed very grounded with our spending habits and continued to focus on saving. We are now closing in on retirement and we will be able to spend more than we have ever spent in our lives. We will still stay grounded and hope to spend time sharing with family and friends making lasting memories.

I will add that it didn't come without hard work. Very hard work work. I think most that have enjoyed success will tell you that they busted their humps for several decades. It won't happen by deciding to semi retire in your 30's or take year long sabbaticals when you feel like you need a break. I have nothing against anyone who decides to do things like that, but they should not expect the same lifestyle in their later years.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

If my SIL put what she spent in credit card interest each ,month, each year into an RSP or TFSA she probably would not have had to work into her 70's or live with her daughter.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

Gator13 said:


> What is your *after tax *monthly income in retirement?


Hoping I can tack on a follow-up question of "How static or dyanamic has been your income in retirement?"
I'm guessing people generally want a pretty stable income flow but using the VPW strategic, additional income streams coming online like CPP and OAS, etc can change the amount of retirement income available. Do retirees embrace the variation or try to limit it as much as possible? Personally, I think I'll be agreeable to some fluxuation but want to keep the annual income within a range.

We've been in kind of a "less stuff/clutter" battle for a while. We've won stuff from charity raffles that we just gave away or declined free items because we know it would be low use by us and we'd have to find a place for it in the house. If we do buy stuff, we're a little more agreeable nowadays to paying more for buying higher quality items as appropriate like for durability. Our focus is leaning more about splurging on experiences though.

It is a tough balance spending for the now while also saving for the future. The problem is that there's no definitive right or wrong decisions since the future is unknown. So depending on how life plays out, you can end up with a huge retirement cash flow or needing to work longer or reducing your lifestyle or having things just work out. No doubt having a healthy household income helps with half the equation but it's also ideal to try to spend purposefully and that a lot of fulfilling things in life don't require a lot of money.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have fluctuation because of investment income realized. Just about to send a large payment to CRA for 2021.

The fluctuation does not impact our cash flow or hamper our retirement spending in any way. Our portfolio withdrawals are very low. Most investment income is re-invested, net of CRA obligations on same. 

We typically purchase on value. Travel is our largest spend. One does not have to spend every night in 5 or 6 star hotel/resort to enjoy a great travel experience. The opposite is true for us. We have had as much enjoyment from a $70. beach side accommodation in Thailand and local food as we have from a 5 or 6 star AI.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Retirees do not need to have a steady/stable retirement income if they know how to manage budgets, use cash reserves to house a year or two of expenses as ballast and/or buffer to dynamic changes.

I am a strong proponent of VPW as a strategy recognizing one does not have to withdraw the allocated amount. VPW provides a 'safe' ceiling. Too many people see percentages from strategies likeVPW, 4% SWR, etc. as a need to 'withdraw' or 'spend'. That simply is not the case. I use VPW methodology as my guide but I have rarely used the full percentage any given year, albeit in more recent times I have been pulling higher amounts for gifting purposes (family and charitable donations). At my age (73), it would make little sense to re-invest any surplus...to do what? Grow the stash?

You may want to take a look at these threads over at FWF to get a sense of VPW in practice.


Growth of the Vanguard Balanced ETF Portfolio (VBAL) and its components - Financial Wisdom Forum




A Simple Retirement Using Variable Percentage Withdrawals (VPW Forward Test) - Financial Wisdom Forum


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

milhouse said:


> Do retirees embrace the variation or try to limit it as much as possible?


Embrace.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Interesting poll. Lots of rich retirees here. Not a rant, just an observation.

I mean, me and my wife make somewhere around $10k+/month after-tax and we live very, very decently, never struggled with money, we travel abroad every year, and yet we have a $3k/month mortgage, $1k/month debt repayment, we save for renovations, we save for retirement and we have a kid to provide for.

I can't even imagine what we could do with $10k+/month without mortgage, kids, savings, debts, etc. I mean, that's enough to be traveling 365/365 days per year, with hotel everyday, restaurant everyday and activities everyday.


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## hycm53 (May 11, 2019)

I didn't vote because I don't know how much the monthly income will be *after income tax* , but I *do know* how much the monthly income will be *before income tax*.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

A retired couple today could have $22k each in CPP plus OAS for a total of $44k. A $2M portfolio will generate another $80k. That provides $10k/month gross (BT), perhaps $7k net. A number of current boomers aged 58-76 today will also have DB pensions albeit the younger boomers not yet retired are in that diminishing crowd of either no, or reduced, DB pensions.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

hycm53 said:


> I didn't vote because I don't know how much the monthly income will be *after income tax* , but I *do know* how much the monthly income will be *before income tax*.


Sure you can. The information is on your 2021 T1 return or NOA (gross income less income tax paid). I have always used my T1 returns to trend my own personal information, e.g. gross income, investment income (eligible dividends grossed up, other income, etc, etc), income taxes paid, and IAT (income after tax). You don't need any other sources of data beyond that.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> Sure you can. The information is on your 2021 T1 return or NOA (gross income less income tax paid). I have always used my T1 returns to trend my own personal information, e.g. gross income, investment income (eligible dividends grossed up, other income, etc, etc), income taxes paid, and IAT (income after tax). You don't need any other sources of data beyond that.


Don't know about other tax programs. Studio Tax has a feature option to print off a summary page that includes both of our line item filings for the past three years. Plus provide the effective tax rates, incremental tax rates. All on two pages.

I use it primarily to review our tax returns by line item prior to filing to look for any obvious errors or omissions. Makes it very easy to to see income, net of taxes.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I believe all tax software provides summary pages (which is my go-to as well on Ufile) but it is also just as easy to read it off the T1 return itself or the NOA. The point is... annual after tax income is an easy number to obtain.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

I don't have the NOA's yet but looked at the tax returns from accountant and took taxes due off the income.


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## Retired Peasant (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm not certain of the intent of the question. Some seem to be talking about income, which could be taken from your NOA. But then others seem to be speaking about what they spend. Not at all the same thing for us.


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## londoncalling (Sep 17, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Interesting poll. Lots of rich retirees here. Not a rant, just an observation.
> 
> I mean, me and my wife make somewhere around $10k+/month after-tax and we live very, very decently, never struggled with money, we travel abroad every year, and yet we have a $3k/month mortgage, $1k/month debt repayment, we save for renovations, we save for retirement and we have a kid to provide for.
> 
> I can't even imagine what we could do with $10k+/month without mortgage, kids, savings, debts, etc. I mean, that's enough to be traveling 365/365 days per year, with hotel everyday, restaurant everyday and activities everyday.


Depending on how soon you are retiring 10k won't have the same buying power it does today.  

We are on target to be in that camp but a lot can disrupt that progress. Some of these are beyond our control and others are by choice. I think if one's retirement income is the same as it was in working years they are in good shape provide they don't have any outstanding bad debt. Of course this is somewhat dependent on what ones expectations are for retirement lifestyle. At a certain point along the way one tends to value time over money. Above all of that health becomes the biggest priority.


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## like_to_retire (Oct 9, 2016)

MrBlackhill said:


> I can't even imagine what we could do with $10k+/month without mortgage, kids, savings, debts, etc.


Well, it simply builds up, unless you're a spendthrift. Then you give it away.




MrBlackhill said:


> I mean, that's enough to be traveling 365/365 days per year, with hotel everyday, restaurant everyday and activities everyday.


hehe, the very definition of a nightmare in my world. I guess some people must enjoy that kind of thing.

ltr


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## Ponderling (Mar 1, 2013)

We answered on what we plan to withdraw in the full retirement 2-3 years out. 

We will have an investment return in excess of this and keep reinvesting the excess in growing TFSA's to max contributions to eternity if we can swing it, and non reg for quite a while as well. 

Need to bleed the RRSP quite a bit in the early years of retirement or the mandated RRIF withdrawals are going to cramp our styles more than just a bit. We are at age 56/58 right now our registered funds are bumping up in 2M$, although after this week not nearly as close as a few weeks ago. We have been though downdrafts before and the key we have learned is two words, ala Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy: 'Don't Panic".


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The question itself is clear. No ambiguity. The reason I think it seems to default/slide/degenerate into a spending discussion is because portfolios have been positioned to deliver certain levels of investment income to meet cash flow desires. 

A portfolio can be skewed more to income than capital growth vs the other way around. Example: Someone answering $10k/month might have $6k in annuity income and $4k in investment income. They could just as easily have picked holdings that deliver $1k in investment income with the rest of the total return coming in the form of capital growth.


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## milhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

AltaRed said:


> You may want to take a look at these threads over at FWF to get a sense of VPW in practice.
> 
> 
> Growth of the Vanguard Balanced ETF Portfolio (VBAL) and its components - Financial Wisdom Forum
> ...


Thanks, I'm going through the threads.



MrBlackhill said:


> I can't even imagine what we could do with $10k+/month without mortgage, kids, savings, debts, etc. I mean, that's enough to be traveling 365/365 days per year, with hotel everyday, restaurant everyday and activities everyday.


Our targeted retirement travel budget kind of served as the basis for what I was calculating our retirement numbers to be. I've kept track of our spend for the last dozen or so of our bigger trips where a flight is involved and it's kind of worked out to about $300-$400 a day with the lower end being cheaper destinations in Asia and the upper end being cruises. That's in the ballpark of $10k/month. We generally don't travel extravagantly either other than the occasional splurge: economy class flights, a lot of budget hotels (I try not to do AirBNB), walking or public transit where we can, a lot of street food, few paid attractions, etc. I think what adds a lot to our overall trip costs is regional transportation like rail pases. However, I suspect in retirement, we can take longer trips which would help averaging the cost of airfare over more days and getting better rates on accommodations for extended stays. 

I suspect our trips costs will become noticeably more expensive over the next few years. Who knows where travel costs are going with pent up demand and inflation. As we become _softer_, I'm pretty sure we're not going to be able to hack some of the crazy things we do to save a buck when travelling.


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## hboy54 (Sep 16, 2016)

We just sent off our tax returns today, and I didn't even pay attention to the actual income numbers. I don't know them unless I go look LOL.

In a sense it doesn't matter, we spend what we want. If my wife's pension, our dividends, and cash float doesn't cover it, then I hunt around for a capital gain to take, or do a partial RRSP withdrawal.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

AltaRed said:


> A retired couple today could have $22k each in CPP plus OAS for a total of $44k. A $2M portfolio will generate another $80k. That provides $10k/month gross (BT), perhaps $7k net. A number of current boomers aged 58-76 today will also have DB pensions albeit the younger boomers not yet retired are in that diminishing crowd of either no, or reduced, DB pensions.


Sure, you can get $44k if you contribute the max into CPP and wait until 70 to collect that and OAS. Some people won't live that longs, and those that do, many of them will be too tired to do anything more than sit on their couch by age 75.

I retired at 53 and will be collecting CPP this summer when I turn 60. I have no desire to wait until 70 to squeeze out a few more dollars. If I really wanted more money I would have just worked longer.

You can always earn more, but you only have so many years to enjoy it. The real accomplishment is knowing the difference between more and enough.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

The point was that is not difficult for those responding to the poll to have $10k/month of after tax income, given the amount of CPP and OAS a couple could receive plus potentially DB pension (most retirees responding to the poll would be boomers...currently aged 58-76) plus investment income.


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## HappilyRetired (Nov 14, 2021)

Sure you can potentially have that much. Or you can retire earlier with a little less and stop chasing the almighty dollar. I'd rather retire on $5k a month at 55 than wait until 70 to get $10k a month.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

HappilyRetired said:


> Sure you can potentially have that much. Or you can retire earlier with a little less and stop chasing the almighty dollar. I'd rather retire on $5k a month at 55 than wait until 70 to get $10k a month.


Many of us, including me, retired early since 'more' was not motivating enough to stay working for the man. That said, I don't understand the sensitivity of some of the responses in justifying their position. It is not relative to the question asked and why anyone here care?


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## Retiredguy (Jul 24, 2013)

hycm53 said:


> I didn't vote because I don't know how much the monthly income will be *after income tax* , but I *do know* how much the monthly income will be *before income tax*.


BT-T=AT/12.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

AltaRed said:


> Many of us, including me, retired early since 'more' was not motivating enough to stay working for the man.


I appreciate this type of insight into other people's retirement trajectory. Thank you.

There were a few years in the late 90s and early 00s that we did not max out our RRSPs due to saving money for down payments on property. By the late 00s, the property was fueling it's own expansion faster than we could onboard new RE and we had long since caught up with our RRSPs (it pinched but I forced us to max everything out at the first opportunity).

In the late 10s, we started selling RE and our unregistered money was bringing in dividends that were killing us every April 30. I looked for growth companies, and we have quite a bit of CAR, but the companies I see most value in are highly distributing companies that I will not part with. Retirement was basically forced on us, to get us out of the top tax bracket. This was by design but it felt like a little bit of freedom was taken away, as I was enjoying the final period of my working career. It's a first world problem, to be fair.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Our retirement finances and f'cast income changed dramatically between age 50 and age 58/59 when we finally retired. And changed again to the better over the past 10 years of retirement.

The stars were aligned for us. I say it was luck, spouse says stewardship, good decisions, and patience. Combination of both I suppose. We had no desire whatsoever to accumulate more-financially or physically. Our children are/will be the beneficiaries of our good fortune. 

I am forever grateful to the example my parents set when it came to education, grabbing opportunities and life with both arms, and personal financial management.


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## TomB16 (Jun 8, 2014)

ian said:


> The stars were aligned for us. I say it was luck, spouse says stewardship, good decisions, and patience.


The flip side of the sequence of return risk. This is why the original question is impossible to answer. Until the market has a major correction, most retired people will probably have to significantly increase their withdrawals each year.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

AltaRed said:


> Many of us, including me, retired early since 'more' was not motivating enough to stay working for the man. That said, I don't understand the sensitivity of some of the responses in justifying their position. It is not relative to the question asked and why anyone here care?


Well said, there are many reasons to work and many to not work. It's a personal decision. Your reasons to not work might be to find a reprieve from the veal fatten cubicles and the micro managers. Your reason to work might be that your interested in it and your the master of your own destiny. Money might not be a driver...


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I believe the trick is to be able to work as long as you want to...... not as long as you have to.

And to achieve the retirement income that provides you with the lifestyle and the security that meets your requirements and your needs.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

ian said:


> I believe the trick is to be able to *work as long as you want to...... not as long as you have to.*
> 
> And to achieve the retirement income that provides you with the lifestyle and the security that meets your requirements and your needs.


You should add the bold to your signature


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

ian said:


> I believe the trick is to be able to work as long as you want to...... not as long as you have to.
> 
> And to achieve the retirement income that provides you with the lifestyle and the security that meets your requirements and your needs.


Nicely said. I started working pretty seriously at a young age when I was a teenager. At this point I've been working for about 25 years. Some will say 25 years isn't a long career but I'm pretty sick and tired of work. I keep saying "it would be nice to take 3 years off from working" but never do it.

I realize some people are workaholics or get a real "zing" from working, but I have a million other things I'd rather be doing. Sadly, I am stuck doing work until I have enough to retire... and I just don't have enough money yet.

If I had CPP + OAS, I might actually be able to retire today (there'd be enough cashflow) but I'm a long way from being eligible for those, so I don't even think about them.

One of my coworkers retired in his 30s but I think he made a huge mistake. The guy lives on a shoestring budget and I don't see how he's going to be comfortable as he gets older. But he was burned out from work, and over-reacted. Learning from that, I'm now trying to take it "easier" with work so that continuing to work is more sustainable for me.


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

james4beach said:


> One of my coworkers retired in his 30s but I think he made a huge mistake. The guy lives on a shoestring budget and I don't see how he's going to be comfortable as he gets older. But he was burned out from work, and over-reacted. Learning from that, I'm now trying to take it "easier" with work so that continuing to work is more sustainable for me.


Some FIRE types are probably sweating a little now, but in a labour market like this pretty much any 'retiree' should be able to dust off the old resume and go back to work no?


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

wayward__son said:


> Some FIRE types are probably sweating a little now, but in a labour market like this pretty much any 'retiree' should be able to dust off the old resume and go back to work no?


Well that's a good point, yes, many jobs are available. But that won't always be true.


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

fair enough. this market could actually be a nice little mulligan for regretful FIRE people. usually portfolio down = rough job market. maybe you should give this guy a shout and let him know to strike while the iron is hot lol


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## wayward__son (Nov 20, 2017)

milhouse said:


> I suspect our trips costs will become noticeably more expensive over the next few years. Who knows where travel costs are going with pent up demand and inflation. As we become _softer_, I'm pretty sure we're not going to be able to hack some of the crazy things we do to save a buck when travelling.


This is the one area of lifestyle creep that got way out of hand for us some time ago, and we don't regret it at all. I have found that the most memorable experiences tend to be either cheap (camping, street food, etc) or eye bleedingly expensive. The nice thing about the latter is you don't get as much of a permanent hedonic adjustment because you just come back to your regular apartment or whatever and life goes on but the trip becomes an unforgettable lifetime experience.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

wayward__son said:


> fair enough. this market could actually be a nice little mulligan for regretful FIRE people. usually portfolio down = rough job market. maybe you should give this guy a shout and let him know to strike while the iron is hot lol


Good point actually. Many people have retired (or semi-retired) during covid... for sure this had to do with the wealth effect from stocks and real estate going up like crazy. Some people saw their paper wealth balloon incredibly. As you know, some young people became rich off crypto speculation.

Thinking they've become rich and have enough to retire, these people said "good-bye" to the office.

The Federal Reserve and Bank of Canada are now hammering down asset prices, and this is partly deliberate, as one way to help combat inflation is the negative "wealth effect". Declining stocks and real estate will change people's psychology... this is probably going to start happening this year.

Some of the people who retired during the pandemic are going to see their declining assets and think again. Some may go back to work. I suspect that portfolio values (the stocks + real estate) play a big part in financial behaviour and confidence.

There are many people out there whose investments did amazingly well over the last 2-3 years, and who are extrapolating that and feeling confident about early retirement due to it. I'm somewhat in that camp myself.

Pulling away the punch bowl and draining liquidity out of this system, to knock some sense into everyone, is a very good idea.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

james4beach said:


> There are many people out there whose investments did amazingly well over the last 2-3 years, and who are extrapolating that and feeling confident about early retirement due to it. I'm somewhat in that camp myself.
> 
> Pulling away the punch bowl and draining liquidity out of this system, to knock some sense into everyone, is a very good idea.


Yes ........Now get back to work  

I know more than a few people in that camp of "Rose Coloured Glasses". Unlike you J4B, these guys don't know what they are doing and do not understand the risks they are taking. Any advancement in their net-worth is just luck. The big one these days is housing. Folks think, that their house is up $400K so their off to easy street. This is usually when I ask are you selling your kitchen to travel to Bali--how does that work?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I stayed at a really nice hotel in Bali for $29 a night, including breakfast! 

The thing about early retirement and risks is that I strongly believe if you have a sufficient portfolio that 4% covers your spending, the risks are very low. Let's say I spend 50k/year for the sake of argument. Then the stock market crashes 50% and I feel nervous about pulling from my investments. OK, so I get a part time job at Walmart. Easy to get. If I work 20 hours a week at minimum wage (15/hr in Ontario), that's 15k/year additional income. So now I only need to pull 35k/year from my investments.

My initial nest egg was $1.25 million to give me my 50k at 4%. Let's say a 70/30 portfolio if I retired young. That's 875k in stocks. It drops to 437.5k. My 30% in bonds is 375k. Let's take a bad scenario like today for bonds and say my bonds dropped 10%. Now I have 337.5k in bonds. So overall I have 775k now. If I draw 35k, that's a 4.5% draw instead of my original 4%. Not very risky, in my view. If I was concerned, I could try to find a higher paying job or work a few more hours. 

I know I'll probably get objections that working at Walmart is a nightmare scenario. But I'm using it as a worst case scenario example. Realistically, with a career behind you, it should be easy to pick up a job paying more than minimum. Or start your own business doing something useful (that also lets you write off some expenses and set your own hours). 

I suspect the sort of people who have the discipline to save up enough to retire early are not the sort of people who will have a huge issue with having to go back to work part time, either with the ability to find a job or with the mental hardship of going back to work. And I also feel like going back to work isn't even strictly necessary, but it would help with the stress of seeing your portfolio take a nose dive.


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## Gator13 (Jan 5, 2020)

Thanks to all who responded. Real life bench marks are always helpful.


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