# Credit Card with positive balance for foriegn cash withdrawl?



## 2mchtx (Sep 8, 2017)

Years ago I travelled overseas with a number of credit cards.
One card I used for day to day transactions.
Before leaving Canada I had a positive balance on the 2nd card and then used it to get a cash advance at a foriegn bank.
There was no interest as the positive balance was more than enough to cover the withdrawl.
Has anyone done this recently?
Is so which card and/or bank was this with?
Thanks
2much


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I did it successfully with the Chase amazon.ca Visa. I plan to do it with the Home Trust visa this fall. The charge was 5% of the w/d amount. No other charges.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

I haven't done it yet, but the new Stack mastercard looks like it might do it. It's a People's Trust product. It's a prepaid mastercard so you have no choice but to have a positive balance.

https://www.getstack.ca/


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## BC Eddie (Feb 2, 2014)

Am I missing something here? Why would you leave money sitting in an account (probably earning zero interest) to pay for expenses in a foreign currency for which the bank would charge you exchange plus a fee to convert? Why not use a no admin fee exchange credit card and possibly get a rebate of 1% or more on the charge?


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## seh (Nov 10, 2014)

I also used to do it with the Amazon Chase, and have just done so with the Scotia Passport Visa Infinite. There's no commission charged on the foreign exchange transactions, but they do charge CAD$7.50 for each ATM cash withdrawal (over and above whatever the local ATM charges are). Incredibly, the $7.50 was charged even on a Scotiabank branded ATM.

BC Eddie: This card (& others) have zero fee to convert. Leaving money on account is only for the duration of the travels. If you don't, any ATM cash withdrawals will instantly start costing exorbitant interest charges (probably 20%+). When I return from my travels, I call Visa and ask for a refund cheque/transfer to a savings account.

Stack Mastercard cannot/will not refund any balance on the account. You can get your money back/bring the balance back to zero by doing a cash withdrawal at an ATM. They're still not part of any Canadian ATM network, so you'll have to pay the local ATM's fee to get your money back.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

After our Marriott Visa program ended we moved to the Home Trust Visa.

It is a no cost card. Comes with NO extra 2.5 percent fees on visa purchases that most bank cards have. It includes an auto club membership. We have tried this however because of this feature we decided not to renew our auto club membership ($90). It also gives a one percent rebate on all purchases.

We have checked the exchange rate on a few US purchases. The exchange rate came over at the same rate as xe.com to the third decimal. So that was good.


We have not yet tried to do a credit card advance. Previously, we would place our Marriott Visa in a credit position. Then we would use it at a foreign ATM. No interest charges because we kept the card in a credit balance for the duration of our foreign travel.
The charges were the greater of $5. OR 1 percent of our cash withdrawal. We typically withdrew the foreign equiv. of $550-$700 CAD. 

We plan to test this on our Home Visa card when we are in Washington State later this month or early Sept. Need to try it prior to a potential fall foreign trip and our winter trip to determine if it works as well as the previous Marriott card.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

This is as topic often repeated on travel forums and always elicits incorrect and misleading information along with some correct information. The problem then is, which information is the reader to believe?

Different people and different banks use different terms to describe something and these differences can sometimes mislead people. Further complicating things is that terms also differ by country. Some of the terms used in the USA for example differ from those used in Canada. The only advantage perhaps to discussing your question here 2mchtx, is that hopefully people are only talking about cards issued in Canada.

Next, we have to differentiate between credit cards and debit cards. You are asking only about credit cards but that begs the question, why are you not also asking about debit cards?

Using a credit card with a positive starting balance as you suggest, only avoids interest being charged on cash withdrawals from an ATM. But the normal way to get cash withdrawals from an ATM or bank is with a debit card. 

Using a credit card for 'day to day transactions' as you describe does nothing for you if those transactions are purchases of any kind. There is no interest charged on those transactions until after the billing period ends and payment is due.

The normal way to use cards when travelling which is the best way to handle money when travelling, is to use a debit card for cash withdrawals and a credit card to pay for purchases. That means there is no advantage whatsoever to pre-loading a credit card which is only used for purchases.

So before getting into this any more, the question to answer is why are you not planning to use a Debit Card for cash withdrawals? And to those who are answering saying they use this card or that card, why are you not using a Debit Card for cash withdrawals? 

For example, seh talks about using a Scotia Passport Visa Infinite card which charges a $7.50 fee per cash withdrawal. That means you would need to withdraw more than the equivalent in local currency, of more than $300 in order for it to be less than the typical 2.5% exchange loading on a typical Scotiabank Debit Card. But why would you want to withdraw more than $300 at a time? Carrying larger amounts of cash when travelling is never a good idea. You pay for things with a credit card, you get cash with a debit card. 

On a recent trip to Europe where I had to deal with 3 different currencies, UK pound, Euro, Swiss Franc, I never withdrew more than the equivalent of $100-150 in cash at any one time. Cash is just for pocket money to buy an ice cream cone, or street food, etc. it is not for purchases of any more than a couple of dollars value.

Everyone is talking about avoiding interest charges but those only matter when you are trying to use a credit card for the purpose of withdrawing cash. That should never be happening to begin with.

A word on dedicated 'pre-loaded travel cards'. These are cards sold by third party companies that you pre-load for travel. They are invariably more expensive to use than normal bank credit and debit cards. They appeal to some people for various reasons but are not a good idea at all. The ONLY time they make sense is when someone cannot get normal debit and credit cards. ie. a student with no credit history or someone who simply cannot qualify for normal cards for whatever reason.

Finally, a word on 'dynamic pricing'. This is something that is becoming more and more common for travellers to come across. When you are presented the terminal to enter your PIN number and authorize a transaction, it may show on the screen, a choice between being charged in your home currency or the local currency. ALWAYS choose the local currency. If you choose your home currency, the exchange rate being charged will be higher, in some cases considerably higher. In other words, you will pay more just for the convenience of seeing how much they are going to charge you in your home currency. 

The company providing the transaction terminal to the vendor you are dealing with, provide them with the terminal for free in return for having the transactions go through them and allowing them to add on a percentage if you are stupid enough to agree to let them do so. It's a parasite in other words. Again, ALWAYS opt for the local currency and be sure to look before you start pushing buttons as you usually have to select the local currency whereas if you just hit enter, it defaults to your home currency.

So back to the basic question. Why is anyone not using a Debit Card to withdraw cash?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

If you use your bank debit card, they will charge you foreign exchange fees. For TD (where I bank), it has recently been raised to 3.5%. Preloading cash onto a credit card that claims zero FX and using that to withdraw instead avoids the lion's share of the foreign exchange fee (you pay at the rate set by Visa or Mastercard themselves, which is very close to spot). You can't do it with just any credit card, as most of them also charge FX fees on top of the Visa/MC rate. 

If one is only taking out a small amount of cash then the 3.5% might be lower than the $5 (or $7.50 if you're Scotia!!) fee that is charged by the CC for a cash withdrawal. For larger amounts the flat fee is a better deal. 

This new Stack Mastercard that I posted about above claims to have zero FX and zero ATM withdrawal fees. I have not tried it yet as it's brand new, but I plan to use it for my cash needs on my next trip out of country. It is also giving me a free year of Netflix so that's a nice bonus.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Spudd said:


> If you use your bank debit card, they will charge you foreign exchange fees. For TD (where I bank), it has recently been raised to 3.5%. Preloading cash onto a credit card that claims zero FX and using that to withdraw instead avoids the lion's share of the foreign exchange fee (you pay at the rate set by Visa or Mastercard themselves, which is very close to spot). You can't do it with just any credit card, as most of them also charge FX fees on top of the Visa/MC rate.
> 
> If one is only taking out a small amount of cash then the 3.5% might be lower than the $5 (or $7.50 if you're Scotia!!) fee that is charged by the CC for a cash withdrawal. For larger amounts the flat fee is a better deal.
> 
> This new Stack Mastercard that I posted about above claims to have zero FX and zero ATM withdrawal fees. I have not tried it yet as it's brand new, but I plan to use it for my cash needs on my next trip out of country. It is also giving me a free year of Netflix so that's a nice bonus.


Yes, I understand how things work Spudd but as you say, the 2.5% (most banks still) should be lower using a debit card than the $5.00 or $7.50 being paid using a pre-loaded credit card. There is no reason for anyone to be withdrawing amounts of cash larger than $100-300 (CAD equivalent), as I wrote above. That is the whole point. So where is this need for large amounts of cash when travelling? 

Also bear in mind, that credit balances on a card are NOT covered by CIDC nor is any money on any pre-paid card such as the Stack card you mention.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Why is anyone not using a Debit Card to withdraw cash?


Because TD charges 3.5% extra for foreign withdrawals to get my own money! They started doing this about 10 years ago. It forced us to get a Mexican Peso account. So we only use the Home Trust card for charges in stores and restaurants, and for cash in Europe.

And by my math, 1% for cash advances is better than 3.5% to the bank!


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## seh (Nov 10, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> But why would you want to withdraw more than $300 at a time? Carrying larger amounts of cash when travelling is never a good idea. You pay for things with a credit card, you get cash with a debit card.
> 
> On a recent trip to Europe where I had to deal with 3 different currencies, UK pound, Euro, Swiss Franc, I never withdrew more than the equivalent of $100-150 in cash at any one time. Cash is just for pocket money to buy an ice cream cone, or street food, etc. it is not for purchases of any more than a couple of dollars value.


Several possible reasons why larger amounts of cash may be required:
- landed after hours recently and had to take a long, expensive ($125) taxi ride to our destination. Cash was the only option.
- cash is being split between 2 (or more) people in your group
- many places around the world are not up Europe & North America's level of accepting credit cards. Many local tours were cash only. We frequented many restaurants that were cash only. Same for some hotels. Even among hotels that would accept credit cards, some demanded a 5% premium (and I've seen larger) to do so - we opted to pay in cash.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> Because TD charges 3.5% extra for foreign withdrawals to get my own money! They started doing this about 10 years ago. It forced us to get a Mexican Peso account. So we only use the Home Trust card for charges in stores and restaurants, and for cash in Europe.
> 
> And by my math, 1% for cash advances is better than 3.5% to the bank!


Again, kcowan, it all depends on the amounts in question. It isn't just about the math, it is about whether the math justifies doing something. In the case of the average traveller on the average 2 week vacation, getting a specific credit card and pre-loading it to avoid currency exchange on cash withdrawals, does not make any sense to me.

I spent years living abroad and relied on debit and credit cards to access funds. That is a different story since I was accessing all my funds with cards, all the time. I used cards from a UK bank that charged no exchange loading and no atm transaction fees at all. Canada had no such cards available at all at the time. I had to transfer money from Canada to the UK using a Forex company (1% fee) and then access my money from that UK bank account using my cards. But saving 1 or 2% by doing that mattered when I was exchanging 10s of thousands of dollars per year doing so. The same issues can apply to someone who snowbirds for 6 months a year etc.

For the average traveller, going to such lengths to save 1 or 2% on the exchange of a few hundred dollars once or twice a year simply isn't worth it. There is a difference if we are talking about the currency exchange fees on all payments made when travelling but not enough difference when only talking about cash withdrawals.

On a recent trip to Europe as I wrote, I withdrew perhaps a total of $300 cash at ATMs. At 3.5% that would have cost me $10.50. I also put around $15k on my credit card paying for transportation, hotels, meals, etc. Paying 3.5% on that $15k would matter. Paying it on $300 does not. 

The OP actually wrote about pre-loading a card only for the purpose of avoiding paying *interest* on cash withdrawals. So my question is why bother? If the OP uses a Debit Card, having to pay as per my example, $10.50 is hardly worth worrying about and there would be no *interest* charges to worry about. The OP hasn't even asked about using his card for normal purchases and what it may cost him in Currency Exchange!

I think the OP is focusing on interest on cash withdrawals when in fact it would be better to focus on exchange on purchases. To me it indicates that the OP doesn't understand the basics of how to handle money when travelling and all the focus on the thread about no exchange loading isn't going to help the OP gain that basic understanding.

Being charged a few dollars to use a Debit Card to withdraw cash when travelling is not worth being concerned about.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Not having to pay 2.5 percent extra on foreign ATM withdrawals is an issue for us.

We typically travel to SE Asia for 2-3 months in the winter and to Europe for six to eight weeks in the fall. In Europe we often pay for accommodation with cash. Either because that is all they accept or, more frequently, we ask and receive a discount for cash. Usually in the 10 percent range. In SE Asia many of the small island and family run accommodations want cash. So, our typical ATM withdrawal is usually the equiv. of $ 500-700 CAD. Our bank ATM card charges $5. for the transaction and 2.5 percent extra on the exchange rate. Our cash advance card charges the greater of $5. or 1 percent of the transaction value BUT they use the prevailing ex.com exchange rate. That works out to a difference of about $15 for each withdrawal. We see no reason to give that money to the bank when it is just as easy not to. When we do charge something, it is always on the Visa card that does not gross up the amount by 2.5 percent. Makes a huge difference if we are buying airfare, a cruise, or an AI from an agency outside Canada...which we often do.

As an aside, in our first year of retirement we traveled overseas for seven months or so. I calculated that we saved $650-$700 in bank fees, visa 2.5 percent fees, and ATM exchange fees, simply by using our no fee Marriott Visa. We paid $125 for that card and it came with a free Marriott Hotels night. We used it in Sydney and saved $270 at the Pier One Hotel in the Shambles area. We were sad to see this card discontinued.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

In my first response on this thread, I wrote that the topic invariably ends up with confusion and misinformation. This thread is a perfect example of just that happening.

People write based on their own experience and circumstances. While it isn't hard to understand how and why that happens, it doesn't help the OP unless the OP's circumstances are the same. 

So what makes sense for someone who travels often or for longer periods of time does not necessarily make sense for someone taking an annual 2 week vacation. Can we all agree on that?

The OP stated that in the past s/he used *two* cards. One to make day to day transactions (pay for stuff) and a second card that was pre-loaded, to make cash withdrawals. The OP also stated that the intent was to avoid being charged interest on cash withdrawals. That's all the information we actually have. The only question the OP asked was, has anyone done the same and does anyone do it now and if so, using what cards.

In fact, there is not enough information provided by the OP for anyone to base advice on, only enough information on which to provide a factual answer. That answer is that some people do exactly what he is asking if people do and that they probably do it using any credit card they happen to have.

What everyone including myself, is trying to do instead of provide that simple answer is go beyond what the OP has told us and give advice on the best way to handle money when travelling which is actually a different question entirely. Unless the OP returns and provides more background information, we cannot really give that advice.

Ian, what 'is an issue' for you makes sense for *you*. But what is the relevance to the OP unless the OP's circumstances are more or less the same as your own? We need to know if the OP has a credit card that charges no exchange loading. Whether the OP has a debit card and what % it charges in exchange loading on cash withdrawals. How much cash does the OP intend to withdraw and how often will it be done. Where the OP intends to travel to and for how long.

Many people go on a vacation once a year for 2 weeks and will ask, 'how should I handle my money'. They book and pay for transportation and hotels before they leave home. That leaves only meals and incidentals to be dealt with while they are away. The answer they should be given is different from the answer someone in the circumstances you describe should be given. We don't know which we are dealing with in the OP"s case.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

I used to go to Mexico for three weeks and always used my ATM card. It was only when we were retired and started longer stays that credit card advances became financially attractive.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> I used to go to Mexico for three weeks and always used my ATM card. It was only when we were retired and started longer stays that credit card advances became financially attractive.


Unfortunately, Canadians are poorly served by our card providers when it comes to currency loading and fees kcowan. In other countries it is possible to get both credit and debit cards that charge no transaction fees and no exchange loading, quite easily and from major providers. For many years, I have used cards from a UK 'Building Society' (something akin to a Credit Union in Canada). They provide me with both credit and debit cards with zero fees or loading. Almost all US debit cards have no currency loading added on to them when used abroad. Canadians are not so well served in this regard obviously. We are just lucky to have spent time living in the UK and getting cards there which they allow us to continue to have and use even though we no longer live there. As long as we have an account with them and money in it, they're happy to issue us new cards.

Another issue the traveller looking to avoid costs faces is that the cards that best serve you as a traveller may not be the best cards to use when you are at home or even to use for travel related costs in every instance. It really can get complex.

For example, let's say one card you have charges you 2.5% currency loading but provides you with rental car insurance coverage internationally. Using that card to rent a car in the USA will save you more in insurance costs than it will cost you in currency loading costs. The same may apply to other 'perks' some cards offer like free travel medical insurance.

A card you use at home may charge you 2.5% on currency loading but pays you 'cash back' on all purchases made on the card. That card makes sense for you to use at home but perhaps not when you travel unless the cash back it pays exceeds the 2.5% you will pay in currency conversion loading. The Rogers Platinum MC does just that. Pays 3% cashback and charges 2.5% currency loading which still leaves you with a .5% gain! On the other hand, if your card pays you say 1.5% in cash back, will it really be worth it to get another card to just save an additional 1% on currency loading if you will not in fact be putting that much on the card when travelling?

On a recent trip to Europe, we spent roughly $15k total for around 18 days away. Of that, around $8k was airfare costs. Paid for in Canada, the best card would be a cash back card obviously since there was no currency exchange involved. That left around $7k spent while abroad. If getting a second card with no currency loading would save an additional 1%, that would mean a savings of $70 on a total of $15k in spending. Is that worth bothering about? Is it worth bothering about if you travel once a year? Is it worth bothering about if you travel 4 times a year? As you say, when you went to Mexico for 3 weeks a year, it wasn't worth bothering about.

But I still wouldn't be looking at pre-loading a credit card if that is what you are doing when you say 'credit card advances'. Some financial institutions are known to take a dim view of 'avoiding' their charges and have been known to cancel a card, *mid trip* on people. Second, the pre-loaded amount is not covered by CIDC. A small risk but it can also make a lost/stolen card and resulting charges put on it by the finder/thief harder for you to claim back on. 

The best answer is to find a debit card that does not charge currency loading on ATM withdrawals. Tangarine (Thrive Chequing)for example has one. No currency loading and no withdrawal fee if you use an ATM at a bank that belongs to the Global ATM Alliance or $2 per withdrawal if it is not a member.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Tangerine does charge currency exchange. I am not sure what you mean by "currency loading" but I think from the context that you mean currency exchange. 

Tangerine may, in its sole discretion, permit transactions in a foreign currency. The foreign currency will be converted to Canadian dollars at the exchange rate determined by Tangerine on a date determined by Tangerine, which may be different from the date of the transaction. Tangerine is not responsible for any losses you may incur due to changes in foreign currency exchange rates or the unavailability of funds due to foreign currency restrictions.

If you look at their rates page on their website, you will see a different rate for currency buying vs currency selling - which means that they are charging currency exchange fees.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

ian said:


> As an aside, in our first year of retirement we traveled overseas for seven months or so. I calculated that we saved $650-$700 in bank fees, visa 2.5 percent fees, and ATM exchange fees, simply by using our no fee Marriott Visa. We paid $125 for that card and it came with a free Marriott Hotels night. We used it in Sydney and saved $270 at the Pier One Hotel in the Shambles area. We were sad to see this card discontinued.


Same. I saved about the same on my free hotel in San Francisco once, even more if you consider the cost savings of parking vs taxi or ferry + parking. I was going to switch to BRIM but cancelled my application. I now have a US based Visa and once my credit is established I will be using US based cards like Chase with no FX fees


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## 2mchtx (Sep 8, 2017)

To summarize the two times I used credit cards with postitive balance.
1st was in Australia when travelling over a month. Towards the end of the trip the cash I brought was running out. 
So, at the bank in Melbourne I took out a cash advance on my mastercard. Enough for the rest of the trip. 

2nd was a vehicle purchase in Arizona. I brought cash and travellers checks and needed a bit more money to complete the purchase. So, an advance on the card (positive balance) paid for the truck. 
Both of these cash advances were done at a bank not ATM.
When I returned home the positive balances were taken out as cash or the card was just used.

On average when travelling I usually bring enough cash for the trip. However, if needed it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan to get more cash if needed. I just don't like donating $ to the bank/card if I can avoid it.

thanks
2much


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Spudd said:


> Tangerine does charge currency exchange. I am not sure what you mean by "currency loading" but I think from the context that you mean currency exchange.
> 
> Tangerine may, in its sole discretion, permit transactions in a foreign currency. The foreign currency will be converted to Canadian dollars at the exchange rate determined by Tangerine on a date determined by Tangerine, which may be different from the date of the transaction. Tangerine is not responsible for any losses you may incur due to changes in foreign currency exchange rates or the unavailability of funds due to foreign currency restrictions.
> 
> If you look at their rates page on their website, you will see a different rate for currency buying vs currency selling - which means that they are charging currency exchange fees.


Oh my. When you see a difference between buy and sell rates Spudd, it is referring to the rates for buying and selling the 'foreign' currency. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a percentage is being added on by your bank, for buying foreign currency. When you go to an ATM, you only buy foreign currency, you do not sell foreign currency. 

So first comes the Interbank rate at which banks exchange funds between themselves. That is the rate shown on sites like https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/exchange/currency-converter/ Then you add the 1% loaded on top of that by Visa/MC for use of their system. Then you add whatever percentage if any, your bank loads on top of that. There is the rare card provider who will 'eat' the 1% charged by Visa/MC, but I have never heard of a Canadian card provider who does so.

There does seem to be some controversy over whether Tangerine passes on to their customer, the Visa/MC rate without adding on any additional percentage or not but I'm not able to vouch for them adding no percentage personally Spudd as I don't use their card. Here is a link where someone refers to a 1.7% difference on an actual transaction. However, I'm guessing they forgot that Visa/MC adds 1% which would only leave a .7% difference on their transaction and I'm also guessing that they don't understand the part of what you have quoted about the date "may be different from the date of the transaction." What that means is you may use your card on say a Tuesday but the day on which the actual transaction goes through may be on the Friday. It is the rate on the Friday that will apply, not the rate that existed on the Tuesday. That may well account for the .7% different the writer found.https://forums.redflagdeals.com/tan...tside-canada-without-transaction-fee-2080636/

I have also read other comments about Tangerine increasing their exchange loading to 2.5%. That definitely applies to their Credit Cards but I have not seen anyone find a link that says it applies to their Debit Cards. Here is a link to a reasonably respected travel blog that is updated for 2018 and that says Tangerine is not charging on their Debit Card.
https://thriftynomads.com/best-travel-credit-debit-cards/


I use the term 'exchange loading' because that is clearer I believe. The term 'currency exchange' simply refers to exchanging currency and says nothing in terms of whether anything is added on or not by anyone. Some banks have been known to 'play with words'. For example, a bank may advertise, 'no foreign ATM fees'. All that means is that they do not add any 'withdrawal fee' each time you use an ATM, for USING an ATM. Those are the $2, $7.50, flat fees you see some talking about here. They may then add on a 2.5% currency exchange loading without mentioning it as it is not a 'fee' as such, it is a 'rate'. Conversely, a bank may advertise 'no foreign transaction fee' (the USA banks use this term almost universally). That means they do not add a percentage on to the Visa/MC rate but says nothing about whether they add a flat fee each time you use an ATM.

So it is clear that you must read carefully to understand what each bank and card will and will not charge you. It is also clear that they do not all use the same terms to mean the same things and that if you 'assume' what a term means to them, you may get it wrong. Again, as I have already said, this topic is very complex and always generates incorrect and misleading comments when posted in a forum.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

2mchtx said:


> To summarize the two times I used credit cards with postitive balance.
> 1st was in Australia when travelling over a month. Towards the end of the trip the cash I brought was running out.
> So, at the bank in Melbourne I took out a cash advance on my mastercard. Enough for the rest of the trip.
> 
> ...


I am having trouble understanding what you are actually trying to say here 2mchtx.

A 'cash advance' on a credit card generally refers to using a credit card to obtain cash. In other words, I walk into a bank say and ask them to give me $1000 and put it on my credit card. I then owe $1000 on my credit card and as a cash advance, interest is charged from day one.

That is very different from 'pre-loading' money onto a credit card. When you pre-load a card, what you do in in fact transfer funds from your bank account onto your credit card and put the card into a positive 'credit balance' position.

Did you pre-load the cards or not? If you did, then you did not take out a 'cash advance', you just withdrew cash that was already sitting on the card as a credit balance. 

I'm also wondering about why you are saying nothing about the other issues that have been mentioned here. You seem to be fixating on avoiding interest charges on a cash withdrawal on a credit card. You are saying nothing about avoiding currency exchange costs or using a debit card to withdraw cash which would avoid interest costs. Now I am wondering based on your comment about "cash and travellers cheques", if you do not use cards to handle your money when travelling but in fact normally carry all your funds in cash and TCs. If that is the case, I would also guess that you buy foreign cash and TCs in the currency of the country you intend to visit, before leaving home. 

If I am correct in my surmises, you are handling your travel funds in entirely the wrong way. You are still leaving out more information than you are providing 2mchtx. It may be that you don't know that you don't know.

Do you use a credit card to pay for things as you travel or not? Or do you carry $1000s in cash and TC's and use them to pay as you go, with your pre-loaded credit card as your only back up if your cash and TCs run out?


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> Oh my. When you see a difference between buy and sell rates Spudd, it is referring to the rates for buying and selling the 'foreign' currency. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a percentage is being added on by your bank, for buying foreign currency. When you go to an ATM, you only buy foreign currency, you do not sell foreign currency.


That is clear, but the point I was trying to raise was that Tangerine says "a rate determined by us" when they discuss foreign transactions in their chequing account terms & conditions, and the fact that the buy/sell rates are so far apart implies that they are taking a percentage. The spot rate should be somewhere in the middle. [/quote]



> So first comes the Interbank rate at which banks exchange funds between themselves. That is the rate shown on sites like https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/exchange/currency-converter/ Then you add the 1% loaded on top of that by Visa/MC for use of their system. Then you add whatever percentage if any, your bank loads on top of that. There is the rare card provider who will 'eat' the 1% charged by Visa/MC, but I have never heard of a Canadian card provider who does so.


You were discussing debit cards, as is the RFD thread you mentioned, so the 1% for Visa/MC is not part of the discussion. If you're using a debit card then Visa/MC are not involved in the transaction.



> I have also read other comments about Tangerine increasing their exchange loading to 2.5%. That definitely applies to their Credit Cards but I have not seen anyone find a link that says it applies to their Debit Cards. Here is a link to a reasonably respected travel blog that is updated for 2018 and that says Tangerine is not charging on their Debit Card.
> https://thriftynomads.com/best-travel-credit-debit-cards/


Because they are still calling it "Thrive Chequing" I think their information might be out of date. The Terms & Conditions I cut/pasted in above clearly says that an exchange rate will be applied, but it doesn't say what it is. 



> So it is clear that you must read carefully to understand what each bank and card will and will not charge you. It is also clear that they do not all use the same terms to mean the same things and that if you 'assume' what a term means to them, you may get it wrong. Again, as I have already said, this topic is very complex and always generates incorrect and misleading comments when posted in a forum.


Totally agree, which is why I wanted to clear up the Tangerine issue, because I was sure I had heard they do charge FX fees, so I went to read their terms & conditions to confirm it. Otherwise, people reading this thread might have believed there was 0 FX fees from them, which would not be correct.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Spudd said:


> That is clear, but the point I was trying to raise was that Tangerine says "a rate determined by us" when they discuss foreign transactions in their chequing account terms & conditions, and the fact that the buy/sell rates are so far apart implies that they are taking a percentage. The spot rate should be somewhere in the middle.



You were discussing debit cards, as is the RFD thread you mentioned, so the 1% for Visa/MC is not part of the discussion. If you're using a debit card then Visa/MC are not involved in the transaction.


Because they are still calling it "Thrive Chequing" I think their information might be out of date. The Terms & Conditions I cut/pasted in above clearly says that an exchange rate will be applied, but it doesn't say what it is. 


Totally agree, which is why I wanted to clear up the Tangerine issue, because I was sure I had heard they do charge FX fees, so I went to read their terms & conditions to confirm it. Otherwise, people reading this thread might have believed there was 0 FX fees from them, which would not be correct.[/QUOTE]

The 'a rate determined by us' could include a percentage loading as you are interpreting it as meaning Spudd but it could also just be ambiguous wording that lawyers love to use. If you read the whole quote, it also includes the part about the day of the transaction and the day of the actual conversion may not be one and the same day. Now relate that to the first part about 'a rate determined by us'. That is, the rate at the time of conversion. 

The spread between buy and sell rates have nothing whatsoever to do with credit and debit cards in terms of indicating whether or not the bank is adding currency conversion loading when you use a card.

Any time you use the Visa/MC system for a foreign transaction, they add 1%. It doesn't matter if it is a credit or debit card. They are always involved in the transaction Spudd. Here is a quote that refers to it. "Credit unions tend to have lower international transaction fees than banks, often passing on to members the currency conversion charge from Visa and MasterCard, about 1%, without adding another fee. Banks, in contrast, may tack on an extra 1% to 2% to the card company’s cost." The 'card company' being referred to is Visa/MC and the 1% is for the use of their system.

The only way to avoid that is when say someone goes into an 'associated' bank and uses their debit card only as a means of identifying them and their bank account to the associate bank who then does a direct bank to bank transaction for you which does not involve the Visa/MC system. An ATM will always involve the Visa/MC system obviously. That is referred to in this quote, "But some large banks have branches and ATMs in foreign countries, where travelers may be eligible for free services. Others have partnerships with foreign banks that have similar benefits. Before you travel, check if your bank has an arrangement of that type at your destination."

Both quotes are taken from here: https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/debit-card-foreign-transaction-fees/

While I have read as I said that their credit card now has a 2.5% loading added, I have not been able to find any link showing it is added to their debit card. Since they are not trying to hide at all that it is added to their credit card, I don't know why it would be hidden in regard to their debit card. If you look here, you will see where they very clearly state the 2.5% on credit cards. https://www.tangerine.ca/en/faq/spending/creditcard/index.html Click on, 'are there any fees'

If you look here you will see ABM withdrawals as being 'free' and lower down you will see the $2 transaction fee for non-Global Alliance ABMs internationally. https://www.tangerine.ca/en/products/spending/chequing-account/ Click on, 'where are the fees'

That seems to me to make it quite clear that they do not add the 2.5% on if you use their debit card.


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## WexleySnoops (Apr 28, 2017)

For us it depends on where we are travelling to.

When we went to Europe, we used our Tangerine debit with the associated Global Alliance ATM since we were using credit for most purchases, and just wanted small amounts of cash here and there.

For our Honeymoon we're going to Indonesia. From the reading I've done there are no Global Alliance ATM's there, and many people seem to have issues using their Tangerine/Scotia cards in Indonesia due to it being on a 'whitelist'. Given this, we'll be pre-loading our HT Visa and using that for our cash withdrawals, especially since Indonesia seems to be primarily cash based, so having larger amounts of cash on hand will be a necessity (thus making the savings of pre-loaded credit vs debit worth it).

Ultimately I believe it comes down to what you're willing to do to save a couple extra bucks. For some they'll go the extra mile, for others not so much. 
In your example you mention a potential $70 savings on $7k (Why include the other $8k pre-paid when that doesn't really belong in this scenario?). To some, that $70 is worth it as it's an extra meal. To others it's not worth the hassle.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

WexleySnoops said:


> For us it depends on where we are travelling to.
> 
> When we went to Europe, we used our Tangerine debit with the associated Global Alliance ATM since we were using credit for most purchases, and just wanted small amounts of cash here and there.
> 
> ...


As you say, it comes down to what you are willing to do to save a couple of extra bucks. I included the $8k because it puts the amount you will save in perspective to the overall cost of the travel. That is how I think you should look at it. Many people for example pre-pay all their transportation and hotel costs for a vacation. So while a trip may cost $15k, they might well only be looking at withdrawing a $1000 or less in cash. Saving $25 on a $15k trip is not worth worrying about in my book.

The OP has focused on saving the interest cost on a cash withdrawal using a credit card. That is the same as worrying about the currency loading using a debit card. If a credit card charges you 22% on cash withdrawals, how much is that? Well let's round it up to 24% to make it easier to calculate. That means that for one month it will cost 2% of the total withdrawn. If you then pay off the card balance in full after that first month, that's the end of the interest that you will be charged. So if you withdrew $1k, the interest for a month would be $20. Actually cheaper than the debit card at $25. So why bother to do anything about it? It's insignificant.

What the OP has said nothing about and what is what people should be looking at, is not avoiding a few dollars on cash withdrawals, but avoiding currency loading on the big ticket spends when travelling. Those are usually transportation, hotels, car rentals, etc. For any of those where you will be paying in a foreign currency, currency exchange loading starts to mount up.

So if I spend $7k while in country X and that is split between paying for things worth $6k (hotels, etc.)and withdrawing cash from ATMs for $1k, I don't care about the $25 using the ATMS will cost me but I *lmay* care about the 6 times that paying the other $6k will cost me ($150) if I don't use a card that does not add exchange loading on. Even then though, it also depends on how often I travel and for how long. In reality, if I only travelled once a year and it was going to cost me an additional $175 on a trip of $15k total cost, I really wouldn't go out of my way to avoid paying the $175.

However, I travel more often that that, sometimes for longer periods and take a longer term view of the whole issue. So over 10 years with an average spend of $25k per year on travel, a 2.5% cost adds up to $5k. That is an amount I think it is worth my while to try and save.

So yes WexleySnoops it does come down to what you are willing to do to save some money but I do think that some people get lost in the trees and can't see the forest. Someone who travels once in 10 years shouldn't be worrying about $25 or even $175. 

So now, let's go on to your own scenario of your honeymoon (congrats). Presumably HT means Home Trust which does not add exchange loading on foreign transactions. That's good *if* it also applies to cash withdrawals. Does it? Are you sure? How much do you actually anticipate spending in cash? How much of your total cost will be pre-paid from home? What happens to your 1% cash back if you are withdrawing pre-loaded amounts in cash? I guess you will lose that 1% cash back. Are you aware that the amount you pre-load is not covered by CIDC? What happens if your HT card is 'blocked' or lost/stolen? Will you have another card you can use in that event? Suppose you are forced to use a back up card, when you get home, will you have cash available to pay of that balance or will you have to wait till you can get the pre-loaded amount back out of your HT card by making multiple ATM withdrawals after you get the HT card unblocked? What is the daily withdrawal limit on your HT card? How many withdrawals will it take to get the pre-loaded amount back off the card? Have you asked HT what their policy is if you pre-load as you plan to do? Some financial institutions take a dim view of those who try to 'get around' their system and will block a card mid-trip! 

Are you aware that even if everything works as you expect it to, you will still be charged a fee by HT for using an ATM? " 1.50% (Minimum fee of $5.50 and Maximum fee of $15.00) if the
ATM is located outside Canada and the United States. This is in addition to any other charges that may be levied by the
owner/operator of the ATM."

So if you were to withdraw $1000 (equivalent in local currency) to say pay a hotel bill, you will be charged $15 by HT for doing so. You may also find a charge added by the local ATM owner as well. So in effect, you are going to pre-load your HT card to avoid a 2.5% cost if you used a debit card but in fact are still going to pay at *least* 1.5% to HT. If you withdraw a small amount you will be charged a $5.50 minimum which may equal more than 1.5% obviously. At best, you will save 1% on the withdrawal whatever way you look at it. So again, how much cash do you think you will withdraw during your trip and is it worth bothering about and risking howvever small the risk might be, any hassle complications that arise from your pre-loading your HT card vs. using a debit card or even just doing a cash withdrawal using your HT credit card and paying the one month interest charge when you get back home?

The best way to deal with money when travelling is never a simple question to answer. It depends on a great many variables but probably the most important variables are how often, for how long and spending how much. For someone who travels infrequently (once a year or less), for short periods (1-2 weeks) at a time and prepays most of their costs before leaving home, using normal cards that give them the greatest advantage when used at home, will provide the greatest savings over the longer term.

For those who travel often, for longer periods and charge larger amounts on their card, cards chosen specifically for travel advantages make sense. Standing on your head to save $25, never makes sense.


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## 2mchtx (Sep 8, 2017)

A 'cash advance' on a credit card generally refers to using a credit card to obtain cash. In other words, I walk into a bank say and ask them to give me $1000 and put it on my credit card. I then owe $1000 on my credit card and as a cash advance, interest is charged from day one.

That is very different from 'pre-loading' money onto a credit card. When you pre-load a card, what you do in in fact transfer funds from your bank account onto your credit card and put the card into a positive 'credit balance' position.

Did you pre-load the cards or not? If you did, then you did not take out a 'cash advance', you just withdrew cash that was already sitting on the card as a credit balance. 

sorry about the term 'cash advance' I was just calling it what the banks call it.
for example from the CIBC VISA and their fees as listed:

"Cash Advance fee (all cards except CIBC U.S. Dollar Aventura Gold Visa Card): within Canada $3.50
, outside Canada $5.00 for each Cash Advance. 
Cash Advance fee (CIBC U.S. Dollar Aventura Gold Visa Card only): $3.50 for each Cash Advance."

using the CIBC example above, how much are the charges in Europe for using an ATM for cash on a CIBC debit card as a comparison?


Do you use a credit card to pay for things as you travel or not? 

The answer to this is in the original posting
"One card I used for day to day transactions.
Before leaving Canada I had a positive balance on the 2nd card and then used it to get a cash advance at a foriegn bank.
There was no interest as the positive balance was more than enough to cover the withdrawl."

It has been a long time since travelling. Just trying to hear about other people's experiences.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

2mchtx said:


> That is very different from 'pre-loading' money onto a credit card. When you pre-load a card, what you do in in fact transfer funds from your bank account onto your credit card and put the card into a positive 'credit balance' position.
> 
> "Cash Advance fee (all cards except CIBC U.S. Dollar Aventura Gold Visa Card): within Canada $3.50
> , outside Canada $5.00 for each Cash Advance.
> Cash Advance fee (CIBC U.S. Dollar Aventura Gold Visa Card only): $3.50 for each Cash Advance."


So if you preload the CC and you withdraw it at an ATM, you do not get charged the cash advance fee? The withdrawal is basically free and if it's a no FX card, you get the spot rate with no commission tacked on? 

Seems a pretty good way to bypass the exorbitant ATM fees especially when traveling abroad...


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

lightcycle said:


> So if you preload the CC and you withdraw it at an ATM, you do not get charged the cash advance fee? The withdrawal is basically free and if it's a no FX card, you get the spot rate with no commission tacked on?
> 
> Seems a pretty good way to bypass the exorbitant ATM fees especially when traveling abroad...


In theory that is correct lightcycle. However, it is not a slam dunk. As already noted, some card providers take a dim view of people who try to avoid paying their fees by 'gaming' their system. They have been known to block a card in mid-trip. So you need to know what your card provider's attitude toward purposely pre-loading is. If you use your card regularly at home on a day to day basis, they may ignore a transgression when you are on an annual holiday. If you have a no FX card that you use only when travelling, they may block the card. 

Let me give you a real life example of what can happen. In the UK, there was a bank who not only charged no currency loading on their card but also 'ate' the 1% that Visa/MC charges for use of their systems. Using their credit card therefore actually got you the Interbank Rate. As it became more widely known that they did this and before any other card providers started offering no currency loading cards (but none ever ate the Visa/MC 1%), more and more people got their card and used it solely when travelling, while doing their banking and day to day card transactions at home, with another bank. Eventually, the card provider sent a letter to all card holders telling them that they were no longer going to add no currency loading or eat the Visa/MC 1%. The reason given was that they had found that 70% of the card holders were 'using' them only when travelling. No one likes to be used and especially not a bank. The only card holders who were exempt from that change were long standing card holders (before a certain date) who also maintained and used bank accounts with them. 

When that letter went out, the change was immediate. Getting the picture? With 70% of card holders using their card only when travelling, how many of those 70% do you think got caught while on vacation. Answer, a lot, all in one day. They got what they deserved in my opinion. They were 'gaming' the card provider for their own advantage with no intention of having any kind of 'win-win' relationship at all. 

2mchtx, tells us that he used one card for day to day transactions and pre-loaded the other card to use if he needed more cash than he had taken with him to begin with. I don't see a bank objecting to that, they have the cash to work with for a period of time and he made *one* cash withdrawal on each of his two trips. But that is not the same as making multiple withdrawals while travelling. By the time a Red Flag can be raised about what you do once, it's too late. Do it repeatedly and you may find that by the third or fourth withdrawal, the card is blocked. See what I'm saying?

Any time someone tries to 'game' a system, they have to be prepared to deal with the consequences if whoever they are 'gaming' decides to game them back. Put $5k on your card and plan to use it to withdraw cash over the course of a month in Europe let's say and see what happens. My guess is you won't get to make many withdrawals before the card is blocked and the remainder of your $5k is *stuck* on the card until after you get back home. Never forget that every credit and debit card you have can be blocked at a whim by the card provider. It's in the Agreement and you have no legal recourse if they do so. You wanna 'game' them, they may well reply, 'game on'.

Now let's deal with the 'exhorbitant' ATM fees. First, you cannot avoid the 1% Visa/MC charges for use of their system. Second, not all card providers charge the same for use of a foreign ATM. There are fees per transaction and currency exchange loading, they are two separate things. Transaction fees can be a % and/or a flat fee per transaction. So as shown above for Home Trust for example, you see something like, "1.50% (Minimum fee of $5.50 and Maximum fee of $15.00)". The currency loading is always a percentage with the typical loading by Canadian financial institutions being 2.5%. One bank may add a transaction as the HT example above does but not add any currency loading. Another may add currency loading of 2.5% but not any transaction fee. Each card provider has their own way of dealing with it. 

Whether or not what you pay is 'exhorbitant' or not however, depends on how much you pay and what you get for your money. If you travel once in a year for 2 weeks, withdraw the equivalent of $1000 in cash, is $25 an 'exhorbitant' amount to pay for the convenience of not having to deal with buying foreign cash before leaving home or after arriving and paying more than $25? Getting cash from an ATM with a 2.5% add on is always cheaper than buying cash from a bank at home or after arrival. The only real exception is when you buy from a street seller in a back alley (common in quite a few countries) who is selling at below the official rate of exchange. But that is of course a criminal act subject to criminal law consequences if caught.

If that same card also gets you free rental car coverage and you do rent a car, is the $25 cost 'exhorbitant' then or would you say, 'hey, you guys are giving me too much for my money. I saved $300 in rental car insurance, here, let me give you $150 of that and we both win $150.' We are quick to complain about a cost but tend to ignore a savings.

If that card costs you $25 for withdrawing your $1000 while travelling and also pays you 1% 'cash back' for the $7,000 (example) that you put on your card for paying for hotels, do you complain about being paid $70 cash back? Or are you gonna keep saying the $25 they charged you for getting cash from an ATM is 'exhorbitant'? 

There is no question that differences do exist between cards but determining which is the *best* card for someone to use under their specific circumstances depends on the individual. As I have already said, someone who travels a lot and puts a lot of money on their card while travelling should be using a card that works best for that but someone who travels infrequently, for short periods like a 2 week vacation per year, may be better off using a card that works well for them at home but has a few small disadvantages when travelling. Focusing on just one aspect of what a card will charge you for or not charge you for is a perfect example of 'can't see the forest for the trees' thinking.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

I did a search and can find no instance of a card being blocked or cancelled for preloading. Can you cite some specific cases?

Also:

Who would pre-load $5000 on the card in one go? If I knew I wanted to withdraw $500 at the ATM while away, I'd transfer the money the day before I go to the ATM. Takes 20 seconds on my smartphone app and the amount gets posted the same day (if the credit card is issued by the same company as the savings account). It's really not the bother that you're making it out to be.

$25 may not be a lot to you, but I'd spend 20 seconds to save $25...


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## seh (Nov 10, 2014)

lightcycle said:


> So if you preload the CC and you withdraw it at an ATM, you do not get charged the cash advance fee? The withdrawal is basically free and if it's a no FX card, you get the spot rate with no commission tacked on?
> 
> Seems a pretty good way to bypass the exorbitant ATM fees especially when traveling abroad...


lightcycle: If you pre-load the CC and then withdraw cash at an ATM, it has no effect on whether or not you will be charged the card's usual foreign exchange commission (if any), nor on the card's regular transactions fees for ATM withdrawals (if any). What it does do is prevent the very high interest charges that begin instantly on ATM withdrawals if the card is not pre-loaded.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

To clarify, Scotiabank and their subsidiary Tangerine are part of the Global ATM Alliance, so both Scotia and Tangerine debit cards will work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_ATM_Alliance

I've found this to be very convenient when travelling. You just go to a member bank, like Bank of America, use your Scotiacard, and withdraw cash in the local currency. The last time I used this, there were no ATM fees other than the FX fee. I've used it in the US, UK, Spain, Australia, New Zealand. Nothing fancy going on here, no cash advance risk, no tricks needed with a credit card.

If you're travelling to one of the countries where partner banks exist, I'd strongly recommend trying this out before resorting to anything more exotic.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

james4beach said:


> If you're travelling to one of the countries where partner banks exist, I'd strongly recommend trying this out before resorting to anything more exotic.


Preloading a CC to avoid (in TDs case, 3.5% minus 1%=2.5% on Foreign ATMs) is worth the few minutes needed to do a transfer of cash.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Absolutely. We preload about $1-2K at a time. We keep track of our credit card charges and withdrawals. Then top up as required. Never an issue over the past five or six years. We only use debit cards at our banks ATMs in Canada-never for any purchases or in foreign ATMs.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Interesting. So it reliably works? It sounded like a strange thing, to me, loading up the CC to put it into a positive balance.

If you've been doing that for 5-6 years then... wow, I should try this.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We have yet to try it on our Home Trust visa. We did this on our Marriott Visa which was unfortunately discontinued. We now use the Home card for foreign purchases. It works....exchange comes across at the xe.com rates.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

ian said:


> We have yet to try it on our Home Trust visa. We did this on our Marriott Visa which was unfortunately discontinued. We now use the Home card for foreign purchases. It works....exchange comes across at the xe.com rates.


I did it in Europe this May. The Home Trust Visa charge was $5.50 for each cash withdrawal; preloaded, so no interest charge. BTW, I notified them before leaving for Europe.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Parkuser said:


> I did it in Europe this May. The Home Trust Visa charge was $5.50 for each cash withdrawal; preloaded, so no interest charge. BTW, I notified them before leaving for Europe.


Actually, if you have a positive balance on your card, the system will automatically still charge you the $5.50 ATM transaction fee as you note Parkuser but if you call after your return home, you should be able to get the $5.50 credited back to your account as the fee should not be charged when you have a positive balance. 

However, all of this anecdotal evidence does not preclude any bank choosing to block your card for repeated activity that is obviously intended to avoid fees. The bank is not going to come out and say, 'we see you are trying to avoid fees', they are simply going to block the card for 'security reasons' and that's all the explanation they will give.

I don't understand why people want to add to the possibility of having their card blocked to save a few dollars. It all comes down to 'risk vs. reward' of course. If you see the risk as low and the reward (X dollars) as large, you take the risk. Obviously that's how many here see it. I see the risk as relatively low but the reward as even lower. For me, any risk, no matter how low, in order to save $20 on a trip that costs $15,000 in total, simply isn't a risk worth taking. But to each his own.


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## Parkuser (Mar 12, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> ...I don't understand why people want to add to the possibility of having their card blocked to save a few dollars. It all comes down to 'risk vs. reward' of course...


By risk you mean something like the anecdote you wrote about UK bank? It's nonexistent. I used my Amazon Visa card like this and now the Home Trust Visa. I used/use both for online shopping too. Why do I preload? I do not know. I am a complete mystery to myself. Like today, I was shopping, and, at the self-serve check-out, I clicked on an organic lettuce ($2.78) instead of on a regular lettuce ($0.78). Then I spent several minutes chasing an attendant to correct it. Why do I care about $2, while a few days ago I again bought an additional 10 shares of FFH, which, I know, is no good for me? Unexplainable.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> Actually, if you have a positive balance on your card, the system will automatically still charge you the $5.50 ATM transaction fee as you note Parkuser but if you call after your return home, you should be able to get the $5.50 credited back to your account as the fee should not be charged when you have a positive balance...


No the card holder agreement states that the ATM charge for credit balance in Europe is 1.5% of the amount on Canadian dollars, minimum C$5.50 and maximum C$15. So it will not be reversed. Still better than the 3.5% TD charges on ATM withdrawals.


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## lightcycle (Mar 24, 2012)

Longtimeago said:


> I don't understand why people want to add to the possibility of having their card blocked to save a few dollars.


Because other than you stating this could happen, you've not given any proof or examples of this happening.

Meanwhile, a lot of people on this very board have given first-hand experience of doing just that, *without* getting their cards blocked...


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

Good info. 

We only paid 1 percent, minimum $5 with our old card. Our cash advances were usually the equiv. of $550.-700 Cad.

The Home card is still much better than our CIBC where we pay 3 - 3.5 percent above the odds plus a $5. ATM fee.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> No the card holder agreement states that the ATM charge for credit balance in Europe is 1.5% of the amount on Canadian dollars, minimum C$5.50 and maximum C$15. So it will not be reversed. Still better than the 3.5% TD charges on ATM withdrawals.


A direct question to CIBC elicited the response that the charge would be reversed kcowan as it is not really a 'cash advance' when you have a positive balance. In other words, they are not 'advancing' you cash, you are 'withdrawing' existing cash from the card's positive balance. While I cannot say what Home Trust's response would be for sure, I would think their response would be the same. Parkuser would need to specifically ask HT the question.

The only caveat CIBC gave when asked was that the 'system' cannot differentiate for a positive balance and so the $5.00 ATM fee would be automatically debited and you would have to claim it back after the fact. Personally, I would not want to have the hassle of making say half a dozen claims for the half a dozen times I used an ATM and got charged $5 each time, during a trip. But presumably some here would be willing to deal with that hassle to save a few bucks.

But I still think people are chasing pennies in relation to their overall trip costs. It only takes you to be the 'one exception' who gets a card blocked and your cash then unavailable to you until you return home and can get the card unblocked, to make chasing those pennies look foolish.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

You might have strong opinions but you are now arguing against the facts of the Home Trust Visa Card and the amazon Chase Visa before it. It is easy to transfer the cash to the card and withdraw it for a 1% fee at an ATM. It is not a cash advance. It works and ian and I have done it.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

We traveled for seven months the first year. We traveled for 4-5 months or so in each the following 5 years. We saved approx. $15. every time we withdrew money from a foreign ATM. In many place we traveled cash was the preferred method of payment because it came with either at 5-10 percent discount or a credit card payment came with a premium. Cash is king is many countries. Our card was never blocked (we each carry 3 cards) nor were any of our CIBC or EQ bank accounts blocked. The card was issued by Chase Bank Canada who had nothing whatsoever to do with CIBC.

My estimate, conservative, is that we saved about $1000 in ATM fees and probably another $800-$1000 in in Visa FX fees over the past six years by using the Marriott card in place of our CIBC Visa and ATM cards.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

kcowan said:


> You might have strong opinions but you are now arguing against the facts of the Home Trust Visa Card and the amazon Chase Visa before it. It is easy to transfer the cash to the card and withdraw it for a 1% fee at an ATM. It is not a cash advance. It works and ian and I have done it.


Yes kcowan, it will work right up until it doesn't work and then any cash you have pre-loaded onto your card will be stuck their until you return home and get the card unblocked. You may have additional funds available to access via another card if that were to happen but you cannot assume everyone will have. 

I still say people are chasing pennies with this and while I realize this is the 'frugal' sub-forum, I think there are far better ways they could be looking at finding ways to save money. On a trip in June I bought some UK pounds and Swiss Francs before leaving home. I always like to have a bit of cash on arrival. I bought 100 GBP and 200 CHF. While on the trip I did not get any additional GBP from an ATM and only an additional 200 CHF in one ATM transaction. Everything else was charged on one of my credit cards. The 200 CHF I withdrew using my debit card cost me no ATM usage fee but a 2.5% currency loading was added. So 200 CHF = $270 CAD. $270 x 2.5% = $6.75. Using your method of pre-loading on a HT credit card I would have paid $5.50 ATM fee correct? Whoopee, I could have saved an entire, $1.25. I put considerably more than that into the charity box in the airport where they ask you to put in all your left over change before boarding your flight home.

Even if I bought your argument that pre-loading has no risks whatsoever, I would have to make multiple withdrawals totalling a significant amount before it would start to become worthwhile to do. Ian refers to a 7 month trip and suggests having saved $15 on every withdrawal. I don't know where that number comes from but it would be interesting to here how ian calculated it.

Otherwise, here we are arguing over $1.25 difference (on a trip of 3 weeks in Europe in my case) rather than something where real money can be saved. For example, if someone wants a tip on how to be 'frugal', I suggest they take a look at their monthly phone bill. I have no land line and my cellphone cost is $100 per year. Compare that to most people paying $100 per month or more. That's somewhere real savings could be found.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

You are not preloading a credit card. You are creating a credit balance on a credit card account. There is a huge difference.

When we travel we use one card. That card gives us foreign purchases at no additional fx admin charge and ATM cash advances at no additional FX admin charge. We are accessing both on a regular basis, just as we would a cibc visa card, to pay monthly balances. And in our instance to overpay the balance so when we do a cash advance on a foreign ATM there is no interest charges. This is hardly an onerous procedure for us when travelling. In fact it makes it a little easier since we only have to pay one monthly visa bill.

Clearly is not a substantial advantage to someone on a three week trip. But when you are travelling for months at a time or living outside the country for months at a time it is a no brainer.

How do I save $15 on a withdawal? Simple. IF I withdraw $600 from my CIBC account I get charged a $5 ATM fee. CIBC also charges a premium on the prevailing FS exchange (3-3.5%) which amounts to $18-$19, for a total fee of $23. When I do a cash advance on my Marriott Chase Bank visa the charge was 1%, (minimum $5) $6. That is a difference of $17. There is no premium on the FX rate. It comes across at ex.com rates.

So for us it was no more effort to use the Marriott visa for cash advances than it was the CIBC ATM card.

CIBC are brutal for service charges, hidden and otherwise. We were customers for many years and finally got wise prior to retirement. Moved everything out....non registered, registered, etc. And when we used their fee based investment Imperial Service the advice was substandard and the advisors (new one every six months) were junior.


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## seh (Nov 10, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> A direct question to CIBC elicited the response that the charge would be reversed as it is not really a 'cash advance' when you have a positive balance.
> 
> The only caveat CIBC gave when asked was that the 'system' cannot differentiate for a positive balance and so the $5.00 ATM fee would be automatically debited and you would have to claim it back after the fact. Personally, I would not want to have the hassle of making say half a dozen claims for the half a dozen times I used an ATM and got charged $5 each time, during a trip. But presumably some here would be willing to deal with that hassle to save a few bucks..



I returned 3 weeks ago from a trip outside the country, during which I withdrew foreign cash at ATMs 3 times, using the Scotia Passport Visa Infinite. I had deposited cash to the Visa card before departure, so there was a positive balance and I knew there would be no interest charges (as well as the 0% foreign exchange commission). My statement does show on each occasion a CAD $7.50 debit for the "FOREIGN CASH ADVANCE FEE". I thought that was the end of it, but since then there have been 2 mysterious line items with credits showing "PAYMENT SCOTIABANK $8.98" and "INT'L ABM CASH ADV CR ADJ $9.20". These are unexpected bonuses, and I didn't contact them at all to claim it back. So...it appears there is some type of (automatic) refund on the ATM transaction fee. Not sure if this is country dependent. I'm guessing the different line item description may be due to different local ATMs that were used. I'll monitor to see if the 3rd charge also gets credited.


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## 2mchtx (Sep 8, 2017)

What about withdrawing the money on a credit card at a foreign bank?
Would this supersede the ATM charges?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

ian said:


> You are not preloading a credit card. You are creating a credit balance on a credit card account. There is a huge difference.
> 
> When we travel we use one card. That card gives us foreign purchases at no additional fx admin charge and ATM cash advances at no additional FX admin charge. We are accessing both on a regular basis, just as we would a cibc visa card, to pay monthly balances. And in our instance to overpay the balance so when we do a cash advance on a foreign ATM there is no interest charges. This is hardly an onerous procedure for us when travelling. In fact it makes it a little easier since we only have to pay one monthly visa bill.
> 
> ...


LOL, you want to compare one card you have to another card you have and then tell me that is how you save money. You spend $6 per transaction, you don't 'save' $17. If you did 'save' money, you would have $17 you didn't have before and could deposit it in your bank account.

You can't talk about 'saving' on currency loading as if everyone else is paying for currency loading. So your $18-19 you added for that above is irrelevant. The whole question from the start here was about not paying the interest on a cash advance on a credit card. The presumption was that there was no currency loading to consider. So if your $18-19 'savings' on currency loading is out the window, where does that leave you, answer with a 'cost' of $6 for a $600 withdrawal. 

By comparison, when I use the credit card I actually use when travelling, I am charged no ATM fee and no currency loading. I don't even pay the 1% Visa charges ian, my card provider 'eats' that 1%. So that's what happens when I pay for something using my credit card which is what it is for. 

Now, let's go to when I want to get some cash from an ATM. In responding to comments earlier on this thread, I just went with the examples most people here were referring to, not my own actual cards. So I showed a cost of $1.25 for an ATM withdrawal. In reality, I use my debit card from that same provider and there is no ATM fee, no currency loading and again they eat the 1% Visa charges. I don't 'save' any money, but I don't 'spend' any money either. That's because I use cards that give me the best method of handling funds when travelling, that is available. ZERO cost for using them.

You can't simply dismiss a 3 week trip example that shows your method only 'saving' $1.25 on a $15K total spend by saying, 'but on a longer trip'. Are we to assume that A: it is worth doing on a 3 week trip because it would be worth doing on a 3 month trip? Or B: everyone only goes on 3 month trips? At best, you can only say that it is a waste of time for trips on which you will not exchange a good deal of funds, but worth doing if it is the best you can do, when you are going to be exchanging larger amounts of funds.

What should be a 'no brainer' to someone who will be exchange larger amounts of funds, is to find an answer that costs you ZERO in any way, as my cards that I use when travelling do and that it is a 'no brainer' that pre-loading a credit card for small amounts is not worth doing.

A small side note to add. The actual rate used by Visa and Mastercard actually differs slightly. The Mastercard rate is always the lower of the two. Not enough to influence whether to get a Visa network card vs. a Mastercard network card but it is a plus if you happen to find a Mastercard network card that suits your needs better.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Why are some/one person arguing so much on the value of this? If it doesn't work for you, or isn't worth it, move along. Not everyone's scenario is the same. The fact is that it does work, the judgement of is $1.75 enough, is irrelevant. What is relevant is if putting the credit card in a credit position works. 

I found some of the posts very helpful and forgot about putting your credit card in the credit position. My spouse and I used to do this ALL of the time, and didn't have any problems. We haven't done it for a while as we have been travelling less frequently, and but it doesn't mean it doesn't work. 

Even with a no Fx fee credit card, we still like to travel with a larger amount of cash. That's our personal choice, so I won't get into all the reasons why, but this won't change for us. Our choice is to either carry large amounts of cash, usually up to $5k (we don't have our kids carry cash) or to put the credit card in a positive balance. The Fx on this would be about $125 each trip. Yes, we can afford to pay the $125 but I don't see the point. I actually wish I did this instead of just carrying a lot of cash on my recent trip to latin America, where we had double that amount in cash. Silly bank gave me a million pesos ($500 cdn) in small bills. It was last minute, so my spouse and had to divide a 5 inch stack of bills, not including the US money we had. If I would have remember about loading up my credit card I would have done that instead. 

My point is, it doesn't matter if you think its worth it to save $1.50 or $250 on fees, the fact is it works.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

LTA, can you share which providers you are using for your fee-free travel needs?


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Plugging Along said:


> Why are some/one person arguing so much on the value of this? If it doesn't work for you, or isn't worth it, move along. Not everyone's scenario is the same. The fact is that it does work, the judgement of is $1.75 enough, is irrelevant. What is relevant is if putting the credit card in a credit position works.
> 
> I found some of the posts very helpful and forgot about putting your credit card in the credit position. My spouse and I used to do this ALL of the time, and didn't have any problems. We haven't done it for a while as we have been travelling less frequently, and but it doesn't mean it doesn't work.
> 
> ...


No, the fact is that it works until it doesn't work. If anything goes wrong and the card is lost, stolen, blocked or hacked for example, that money is unavailable to you until you get home and can *try* to get it back. Then there are the 'unintended consequences' that may occur. The fact is that the best way to handle money when travelling is to use a credit card only to pay for things and a debit card to withdraw cash. Doing anything else to save a few dollars is simply not worthwhile doing. 

For example, suppose the OP pre-loads and avoids $20 interest. What if he made 4 withdrawals doing so and his bank charged $7.50 per ATM usage? He avoided $20 and paid $30 in ATM fees unless he knows his bank will refund those ATM fees as seh's Scotiabank example above shows being done. Would it not make more sense to find a card that doesn't charge the $30 and stop focusing on just the $20? Just because the OP or anyone else asks 'will this work' does not mean that 'yes it will, do it' is the right answer to give. There are far too many scenarios that can make nonsense of focusing on *one* factor and ignoring all others. The OP focused on interest and said nothing about exchange loading. Might that not be more important for him to think about? We don't even know if he has or not.

Suppose you pre-load a card and spend $600 on a car rental. According to ian, the answer is to pre-load and only incur a cost of $6. But what if the card also has rental car insurance and you avoid paying $30 per day for a weeks' rental by choosing to tick the box declining the rental company's insurance and instead rely on your credit card rental car coverage. Nice perk of the card obviously. You avoided $210 in insurance cost. Now suppose you have an accident causing bodily harm and it comes time for the insurance coverage supplier to pay out a large sum. Got the picture? Now what do you want to bet that they are going to say that as you pre-loaded the $600 on the card, you are not covered by the policy as in effect, you paid cash.

Here is something I don't think some people get. It doesn't matter if something is correct or not. By law you would probably still be covered by the policy but the law does not stop an insurer from disputing it and if you give them an excuse to do so, they are likely to take that route. So there you are with let's say a $20k hospital bill that *you* are absolutely responsible for paying and facing perhaps a 2 year court battle with the insurance company to get them to pay you. 

A credit card is not intended to be pre-loaded, it is intended to give you 'credit' as the name indicates. When you deviate from that intended use, you have no way of knowing what unintended consequences may result. When you deviate from how anything is intended to be used, you open the door to unintended consequences.

The answer is to find the best cards you can for your intended use and use them in the way they are *intended* to be used and avoid unintended consequences which you cannot foresee. As I said, the fact is that it works right up until it doesn't work and *that* is what is relevant.

I have seen far toomany threads on travel forums where people thought they had found a real smart 'work around' for something they weren't happy with and then starting crying when the unintended consequences bit them in the butt. That's what the Low of Unintended Consequences is all about. Using a card as it is intended to be used means you know what the consequences of using it are. Deviating from that means you have no idea what unintended consequences it may trigger.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Spudd said:


> LTA, can you share which providers you are using for your fee-free travel needs?


Spudd, I used my credit and debit cards for all my access to my income and capital for a considerable period of years. I was not living in a country where my income and capital were earned/held. I was moving around and every dollar I spent in any way came through my cards. That meant multiple thousands of dollars per year obviously and the impact of ATM fees and currency loading was also in the thousands per year.

So given that impact, I needed to find a way to minimize or avoid all costs of any kind related to accessing my money. As I have said, there are cards available in this world that charge no ATM fees, no currency loading and even eat the 1% Visa/MC charge. As I also noted, MC uses a slightly better currency exchange rate. So the ideal is to have such cards. But there are none available in Canada. I had to find them in the UK and then go there and do what I needed to do to get them. Without going into detail, it is obviously not something that would make sense for the average Canadian traveller to do.

So there is little point in knowing how to do it or which cards I use unless you are going to be in such a position yourself. Also, the best cards at any given time change over time. The UK based traveller happens to be very well served in getting that information by a site called moneysavingexpert. You can see their current best picks for both credit and debit cards here if you are interested: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/travel-credit-cards/ I am not aware of any Canadian site that gives such clear information for the Canadian traveller.

The specific cards I use aren't even on the list now as they changed some terms a few years back and are no longer considered top picks for someone looking at getting cards. However, the changes they made which included no longer eating the 1% MC charge, do not apply to my cards as I am 'grandfathered in' to the terms that were in affect when I got the cards. You will note that none of the current 'best' cards eat the 1% Visa/MC charge. That is as a result of the explanation I gave earlier in this thread where people were getting the cards solely for travel and doing no other business with the card issuer. In other words, 'using' them rather than having a 'win/win' relationship with them. Just another example of an unintended consequence at work. No one likes to be 'used'. As a result, now no one can get that benefit from any UK card supplier unless they are grandfathered.

By the way, you will see if you look that the current top pick for a credit card charges no interest on cash withdrawals as long as you pay the balance in full each month. Too bad Canada has no equivalent, it would have made this entire thread irrelevant. LOL


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

Longtimeago said:


> No, the fact is that it works until it doesn't work. If anything goes wrong and the card is lost, stolen, blocked or hacked for example, that money is unavailable to you until you get home and can *try* to get it back. Then there are the 'unintended consequences' that may occur. The fact is that the best way to handle money when travelling is to use a credit card only to pay for things and a debit card to withdraw cash. Doing anything else to save a few dollars is simply not worthwhile doing.
> 
> For example, suppose the OP pre-loads and avoids $20 interest. What if he made 4 withdrawals doing so and his bank charged $7.50 per ATM usage? He avoided $20 and paid $30 in ATM fees unless he knows his bank will refund those ATM fees as seh's Scotiabank example above shows being done. Would it not make more sense to find a card that doesn't charge the $30 and stop focusing on just the $20? Just because the OP or anyone else asks 'will this work' does not mean that 'yes it will, do it' is the right answer to give. There are far too many scenarios that can make nonsense of focusing on *one* factor and ignoring all others. The OP focused on interest and said nothing about exchange loading. Might that not be more important for him to think about? We don't even know if he has or not.
> 
> ...


I find when people start bringing so many supposes, then they are swaying from the facts. All of your points ar hypothetical and may or ma not apply. It’s up to the individual to take the FACTS and try the impacts in their specific scenario. We have also travelled enough and I believe I understand risk analysis enough to determine how your scenarios may play out for me. Just as you came up wit random scenarios that may or may not happen, I can do the same. That serves no purpose. The purpose is the facts. 

I can come up with a mitigation with every scenario you came with. It doesn’t change the fact that it still works. What happens if you get robbed at gun point while trying to to the atm machine? Irreverent to will you get a service charge.


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## seh (Nov 10, 2014)

Longtimeago said:


> No, the fact is that it works until it doesn't work. If anything goes wrong and the card is lost, stolen, blocked or hacked for example, that money is unavailable to you until you get home and can *try* to get it back. .


A debit card also has cash on deposit. Why is the risk of having your money tied up/frozen while using a credit card any greater than when something goes wrong with a debit card, or it is lost, stolen, blocked, hacked, etc.?


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

*No, the fact is that it works until it doesn't work. * 
Well this is an obvious statement. But that can happen in any scenario. 

_If anything goes wrong and the card is lost, stolen, blocked or hacked for example, that money is unavailable to you until you get home and can *try* to get it back. Then there are the 'unintended consequences' that may occur. The fact is that the best way to handle money when travelling is to use a credit card only to pay for things and a debit card to withdraw cash._
The fact is that it is a similar consequence if your card gets stolen, lost or hacked, regardless oif it has a balance or not. The only addition piece is getting your balance back which is actually no different. You would still call from overseas. I would actually call using my more expensively cell phone plan that has long distance. If it happened on the card with th credit, then you would suck up the fee and go to one of your other credit cards. So You regular credit and debit can also work until it doesn’t. It’s actually quite easy to get credit balance. I have done it. 

*Doing anything else to save a few dollars is simply not worthwhile doing. *
*For example, suppose the OP pre-loads and avoids $20 interest. What if he made 4 withdrawals doing so and his bank charged $7.50 per ATM usage? He avoided $20 and paid $30 in ATM fees unless he knows his bank will refund those ATM fees as seh's Scotiabank example above shows being done. Would it not make more sense to find a card that doesn't charge the $30 and stop focusing on just the $20? Just because the OP or anyone else asks 'will this work' does not mean that 'yes it will, do it' is the right answer to give. There are far too many scenarios that can make nonsense of focusing on one factor and ignoring all others. The OP focused on interest and said nothing about exchange loading. Might that not be more important for him to think about? We don't even know if he has or not.*

Again just a whole bunch suppose. None of us know how an individual will do something. That’s why it’s important to stick with facts. Loaded to credit position to will not have the additional Fx fee. Everything else in terms of service charges is up to a user to consideer. Making up all other factors is nonsense. Sharing some pitfalls is very helpful. 

*Suppose you pre-load a card and spend $600 on a car rental. According to ian, the answer is to pre-load and only incur a cost of $6. But what if the card also has rental car insurance and you avoid paying $30 per day for a weeks' rental by choosing to tick the box declining the rental company's insurance and instead rely on your credit card rental car coverage. Nice perk of the card obviously. You avoided $210 in insurance cost. Now suppose you have an accident causing bodily harm and it comes time for the insurance coverage supplier to pay out a large sum. Got the picture? Now what do you want to bet that they are going to say that as you pre-loaded the $600 on the card, you are not covered by the policy as in effect, you paid cash.
*
read your insurance agreement. If you weren’t sure if you would be covered you should call your cc company. I was curious about this and had to call my credit cardinsurance for something else, and asked my travel insurance about your scenario and would I be covered. They said ao long as my credit card was in good standing (not in arrears) and both my reservation and payment for the rental was on the card they don’t care if the balance is credit or debit. It is not the same as cash. Now, of course people should check this on their own card. So thanks I know for next time. In my case, what if I have my home auto insurance that covers this. Again, it doesn’t change the original fact that I still am not paying Fx. 

*Here is something I don't think some people get. It doesn't matter if something is correct or not. By law you would probably still be covered by the policy but the law does not stop an insurer from disputing it and if you give them an excuse to do so, they are likely to take that route. So there you are with let's say a $20k hospital bill that you are absolutely responsible for paying and facing perhaps a 2 year court battle with the insurance company to get them to pay you. *

Again this could happen if you pay cash, have done everything right and according to the rules. So again Moot. 

*A credit card is not intended to be pre-loaded, it is intended to give you 'credit' as the name indicates. When you deviate from that intended use, you have no way of knowing what unintended consequences may result. When you deviate from how anything is intended to be used, you open the door to unintended consequences.

The answer is to find the best cards you can for your intended use and use them in the way they are intended to be used and avoid unintended consequences which you cannot foresee. As I said, the fact is that it works right up until it doesn't work and that is what is relevant.*


Again, this is all your opinion and interpretation. No where in the credit does it say it cannot be load. I fact, if you look at some of the agreements, imine has a section of what the company will do if there is a credit balance. They won’t pay me interest. This clause by just being there shows that the cr dit card companies expect that there are cases where people preload and there are no unintended consequences, except mine says don’t expect interest. In fact, in my case, I have been told by cc to put in a credit position for specific reason. It did not void my purchase warranty. 

*I have seen far toomany threads on travel forums where people thought they had found a real smart 'work around' for something they weren't happy with and then starting crying when the unintended consequences bit them in the butt. That's what the Low of Unintended Consequences is all about. Using a card as it is intended to be used means you know what the consequences of using it are. Deviating from that means you have no idea what unintended consequences it may trigger.*

there is nothing in life that gaurentees an outcome, but if you Ice to the facts understand the risks that’s all one can do. All of these unintended consequences can happen in any scenario. If you do your homework and research, you can minimize the surprises. It doesn’t mean one way is right or wrong. I can live with low unintended what ifs because I consider myself pretty thoughtful and thourough in my understanding the risks of the probability and impact. If I am wrong I am also confident in my ability to solve problems.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

I used my amazon card only for purchases that couldn't benefit from insurance benefits of my premium cards. I'm looking to get the US amazon card for this purpose now

Vehicle rental = premium travel card with rental insurance
Hotels = premium travel card
Flights = premium travel card
Big ticket items = premium card with extended warranty benefit (never managed to use this before due to all the fine print)

Small online purchases = burner card
Food = burner card
Gas = burner card
Small ticket items with no warranty = burner card

I always used my TD debit card for cash withdrawals but now that my select service "preferred rate" is an atrocious 3.5% I like the pre-loaded burner card idea. TD did refund me immediately once when a foreign ATM failed to deposit cash but charged me anyways.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

OK people I think this thread has run it's course and is now simply going in circles. The OP asked about pre-loading to avoid interest on an ATM withdrawal. He has received responses and can do his own research and make his decision.

You can continue to use pre-loading as your method of avoiding interest and I will continue to use cards that have zero charges of any kind, in the way they are intended to be used. I know which is the better answer and have no intention of settling for less. You may perceive a negligible risk with your method, like driving above the speed limit is seen by many people, I prefer a method that has no risk in this case. The right cards for the job.

I'm done here. Happy travels to all regardless of how you choose to handle your money.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Since you live in Canada, are you still using those UK-based cards that have no charges? Or have you found Canadian equivalents?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Canadians living in Canada can get the TD Bank N.A. TD Cash Visa with minimal 0.4% FTF and 0 annual fee, and cashback

See RFD for more details. I have the TD Bank N.A. Aeroplan card now but it does have annual fee after the first year


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Spudd said:


> Since you live in Canada, are you still using those UK-based cards that have no charges? Or have you found Canadian equivalents?


I still us UK cards. There is no residency requirement after you have got them. I have income in the UK and do not transfer funds between countries and so do not incur exchange costs between banks.

M3s, did you mean to say Canadians living in the USA? It is a USA-centric card I believe.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

You can open a TD Bank N.A. account online using a Canadian address and you can apply for a TD Bank N.A. credit card without US SSN/credit history or being a US resident. They use your Canadian credit history but do require a US address as that is required as part of US credit system but it doesn't have to be your residential address (you can use mail forwarding service and/or e-billing) Lots of snowbirds use it IE not living in USA


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

m3s said:


> You can open a TD Bank N.A. account online using a Canadian address and you can apply for a TD Bank N.A. credit card without US SSN/credit history or being a US resident. They use your Canadian credit history but do require a US address as that is required as part of US credit system but it doesn't have to be your residential address (you can use mail forwarding service and/or e-billing) Lots of snowbirds use it IE not living in USA


OK, but it is still a US-centric card correct? In other words it is intended for a Canadian to use in the USA more so than internationally. What about the rest of the world?


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Longtimeago said:


> What about the rest of the world?


It's a Visa.


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## ian (Jun 18, 2016)

I have tracked a number of foreign transactions on my Home Visa Card. The latest being three days ago.

I then looked at the Visa conversion rate and the xe.com rates. There is about a 1/2 point variance between the two.

Here is website where you can determine the conversion rate-with or without the up charge that many Canadian bank issued cards add.

https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/travel-support/exchange-rate-calculator.html


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