# Ukraine International Airline plane crash



## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ukraine International Airline's flight PS752 crashed immediately after taking off from Tehran. This was a rather new Boeing 737-800 plane, not old equipment.

All 176 people died, including 63 Canadians. Many of them from Edmonton. Horrific crash and devastating to both the people of Iran and Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-ukraine-air-crash-canadians-tehran-1.5418610
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51032823


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Terrible news and Iran also had 2 earthquakes close to their nuclear facility.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Here is what a friend texted me today:



> Whole family of my friend.


The ENTIRE family of one of his friends died in this morning's plane crash. Two of the deceased are top professors at a university in Alberta.

Big impact on Canadians here. Is Boeing responsible for this, or some idiot military?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

I guess you have some inside info that rules out the Airline personnel, including the maintenance people?

Counterfeit or scavenged air craft parts are still reported to be a problem.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loc...arts-creating-safety-risk-in-aviation/110281/



Cheers


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Countless Canadian stories here... there's going to be a lot of coverage on this tragedy.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/63-canadians-dead-ukraine-crash-1.5418892

One of the victims was Forough Khadem, from the University of Manitoba. She was featured in CBC Manitoba Future 40, a program highlighting innovators and leaders under age 40. While a PhD student in Immunology, she had come up with new techniques for fighting deadly infectious diseases.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

This RT article (authored by a reputable Irish journalist) describes some of the suspicious aspects of this crash:

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/477756-ukrainian-plane-crash-questions-iran/

+ The airline had not had a deadly accident in 28 years of operation.
+ Aircraft was serviced just two days ago, and had a clean record. No oddities in inspection.
+ It's a 3 year old plane, very new.
+ crew did not communicate any aircraft or engine trouble
+ sudden loss of flight tracking data; just a *sudden* stop

Generally with engine trouble, the aircraft will communicate distress. If things are really bad they would call Mayday. They don't just stay silent and then suddenly crash, especially not so close to a major airport!



> That being said, however, it is doubtful that a stray Iranian missile was involved in the downing of PS752, or any other missile for that matter. Surely radar data or satellite records would show up the trajectory of a missile. If the Americans or Israelis wanted to do it in a nefarious way to smear the Iranians, it would seem unlikely as to how they could have gained access to the airspace to launch such a stealth attack.
> 
> *Still, the nagging question is why the flight crew apparently did not make an emergency call to the air controllers if there was something untoward going on*. The fight data apparently stopped abruptly. That suggests something catastrophic happened in-flight, which gave the pilots no chance of recovering from.


This will require investigation by an impartial third party, perhaps Canadians or Europeans


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

james4beach said:


> The fight data apparently stopped abruptly. That suggests something catastrophic happened in-flight, which gave the pilots no chance of recovering from.


Being a very new aircraft it had the latest ADS-B data transponder - the space based receivers for this new data system were still being launched only last year

What this means is western investigators already have access to unadulterated flight data via iridium satellite communications. The transponder would have many redundancies so it is very unusual to just cut out abruptly

Could be an explosion from inside the aircraft. Public may never entirely know a la BA149 to Kuwait first gulf war or MH17 during the recent Ukrainian crisis


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

As people who fly in Boeing aircraft, I think we all need to know the story. Boeing already has all kinds of jumbo jets dropping out of the sky, and this is yet another one. Yes this isn't the MAX but it's even worse news if there are problems that affect a wider range of models.

In past decades there have been incidents such as improper maintenance guidelines and other wrong procedures by manufacturers, sometimes which contributed to major accidents. We have to figure out if Boeing is making a systematic mistake somewhere that is endangering all of our lives.

By the way, nearly the entire flight (138 / 167 passengers = 83%) were connecting to Canada.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is video of the plane going down. 

It appears to have been struck by a surface to air missile and likely from Iranian, American or some offshoot group. It was likely a mistake by the ground operators.

Many experts have come forward and said it doesn't match up with an engine failure, for many reasons.

Canada has the technology and ability to decipher the black boxes and should demand to be part of the investigation.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Ag Driver said:


> I have yet to see any evidence of a crater from the impact. Just debris scattered for miles. Not too often an Airliner blows up shortly after take off for "mechanical" issues....



would that mean that the plane could have blown up in the air, so that debris showered down but there was no surface crater. Along the lines sags & m3 were suggesting ... a missile strike or an explosion inside the plane ...


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Might be lighting up an ayatollah or two yet.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

This was almost certainly a missile strike. The plane literally blew up in the air mere hours after the country launched a large surface to surface missile strike on the United States. The entire country was on military alert and the airspace around Tehran would have been no exception to nervous soldiers.

Independent third party investigation? Very laughable.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The US is now saying it was likely a missile attack. The Pentagon discovered something on radar apparently.

If it was a US missile or fighter plane the US wouldn't be so public with it, so I think it safe to assume it was Iran.

The fog of war....unintended consequences....this is what happens when countries start hurling missiles at each other.

Canada now has more casualties in this current US/Iran conflict than either of them do.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

The US has satellites that can detect infrared heat signature of missile launches and explosions. Canadian military also operate and monitor the system in the US through NORAD. The media keeps confusing this system and the ADS-B satellite data system for "radar". If US or NATO had an AWACS within line of sight they could have radar data of missile trajectories, but it's unlikely given the terrain and geography and altitudes


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## dotnet_nerd (Jul 1, 2009)

sags said:


> Canada now has more casualties in this current US/Iran conflict than either of them do.


And the US won't give a crap. The DOW and S&P are surging, shrugging off any Iran tensions. It's all good.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yes, there are reports of detection of infrared launches from 2 missiles and then the explosion of the aircraft.

The Iranian report contradicted itself. They said there was no contact with the aircraft but 2 paragraphs later said the aircraft had turned back to the airport due to technical issues.

If they knew the plane had turned around due to technical issues, there must have been contact with the plane in some manner.

What I think happened is the passenger plane was outbound and not viewed as a threat. It develop a mechanical problem (perhaps an engine on fire) and turned back the airport.

They became in inbound aircraft and were mistakenly considered hostile and shot down. 

Given the video of a fire......then a much larger explosion........and then the crash it seems a feasible scenario.

Would an incoming passenger jet with an engine on fire give a similar radar pattern as an incoming fighter jet launching a missile ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Today Trump bragged about the stock markets, complained about "Pocohantas", "Shifty Schiff"and Nancy Pelosi, the Mexico Wall, the impeachment, and then shrugged off the Ukrainian aircraft as they were "in a rough neighborhood". 

Reporters at the press conference yesterday said Trump appeared sedated, and was slurring his words, having difficulty pronouncing words and sniffing constantly.

Andrew Feinberg - White House reporter on Twitter:

_I don't know why so many of my colleagues are reluctant to say in print or on the air what many of us saw in the room during the speech. Donald Trump appeared sedated. He slurred his speech and had trouble pronouncing words. He sniffed constantly. Why ?_

Something is seriously wrong with Trump and they are hiding it from the American people. Heaven help the world he should win another 4 year term.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

sags said:


> The fog of war....unintended consequences....this is what happens when countries start hurling missiles at each other.


It's what happens when you decide to use and probably arm, unstable terrorist elements as part of your military strategy, as Iran did. No matter what benefits they thought they might gain by getting into bed with these psychopaths, the inability to truly control them, would create way too much risk. Why they continued to do so, is literally beyond my imagination, when it comes to understanding stupidity.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I agree Optsy, but it is the Vietnam concept of war, where a small country can only defend itself from a powerful aggressor by using guerilla type of warfare.

Despite it's large arsenal of weapons, the US cannot win wars because it won't commit itself to a protracted guerilla war. 

It isn't just the Americans. The French were in Vietnam prior to the Americans and the Russians in Afghanistan. They both failed and gave up as well.

The nuclear option is the only military lever they could pull to end a war quickly and that may end it for everyone. As some have said....the next world war will be the last one.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

sags said:


> I agree Optsy, but it is the Vietnam concept of war, where a small country can only defend itself from a powerful aggressor by using guerilla type of warfare.
> 
> Despite it's large arsenal of weapons, the US cannot win wars because it won't commit itself to a protracted guerilla war.
> 
> ...


Vietnam was a jungle. Iran is a desert. There is a big difference.

I do agree with a lot of what you say, but it is still poor strategy to use psychopaths that you cannot control. I imagine 1/2 of Navy Seals could be classified as psychopaths, but at least the Americans can control them. At times, a psychopath is exactly what you need, but without control, it's like a broken cannon that might misfire and explode. It's only use is really for scrap metal at that point.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Today Trump bragged about the stock markets, complained about "Pocohantas", "Shifty Schiff"and Nancy Pelosi, the Mexico Wall, the impeachment, and then shrugged off the Ukrainian aircraft as they were "in a rough neighborhood".
> 
> Reporters at the press conference yesterday said Trump appeared sedated, and was slurring his words, having difficulty pronouncing words and sniffing constantly.
> 
> ...


Who is dumb enough to take the word of a liberal reporter? They even lie about high school students and get their assess sued off.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> ... Canada now has more casualties in this current US/Iran conflict than either of them do.


Must be some fancy math you are using as 82 Iranians are reported to have been killed in the crash. 
Last I checked, 82 > 63.


Cheers


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

How to retaliate against animals that would murder innocents like that?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Eclectic12 said:


> Must be some fancy math you are using as 82 Iranians are reported to have been killed in the crash.
> Last I checked, 82 > 63.
> 
> 
> Cheers


You are right, there were more Iranians on the plane than Canadians.

According to the latest reports Iran says that many of the Canadians were dual citizens so they count about 130 Iranians killed.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

The blame is on whoever caused this damage to the plane, but there's secondary blame on Trump for this. This whole region is extremely unstable... it's a powder keg. Trump comes along and inflames the tensions by doing something ridiculous, and now we've got a plane blasted out of the sky. During armed conflicts, all soldiers get itchy trigger fingers.

Innocent civilians, tons of Canadians, all collateral damage to Trump's war mongering and his aggression. This kind of fallout is an expected outcome from what Trump stirred up -- I was fearful that something crazy like this was going to happen on the heels of Trump's aggression.

*Passenger planes weren't being shot out of the sky before Trump amped up the tension*. In fact the last time a middle east civilian craft was shot down was 1988 when the Americans shot down a passenger plane.

All lives are precious of course but this particular plane was loaded up with some of the most valuable people in our society. Top academics, top students. An immunologist who was finding solutions to disease. People with bright futures in medicine, business, and science... wiped out.

Why did they die? Why was this aircraft in danger? Because Trump did something reckless and went assassinating foreign government members, fueling tension and craziness. Trump started this conflict.

This kind of tragedy is the side effect of warfare, just as with the Malaysia Flight 17.

From his responses it sounds like Eder is itching for more war and more death and destruction. Typical right wing American mindset. Eder is sitting on a beach in Hawaii and cheering on more aggression in the middle east.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

That's it...blame Trump. Just like it was Trump's fault when the left rioted after the election. I suppose he could have just let the terrorist live and kill more and more people. That would have made james happy


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Not surprised to hear from our resident Trump-lover. Reality check Prairie Guy. If Obama or anyone more sensible was president, we wouldn't have just had a plane full of Canadians blasted out of the sky.

Do you know the terms "stirring up the hornet's nest" or "pouring gasoline on a fire"?

Trump started the current conflict. He assassinated a top figure of a hostile government, and has been antagonizing them for months! Trump destroyed a peaceful arrangement Obama had made.

And Trump is now destabilizing Iraq as well. Americans will be chased out of Iraq and the place is going to erupt in chaos again.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

The blame is on the Iranians for not closing the airspace if they're going to start firing anti aircraft weapons.

Terrorists who are actively orchestrating attacks against civilians are legitimate targets for military or law enforcement. 
The only reason Trump got this guy is because the opportunity showed up during his term.

Also Trump is so far showing restraint on the Iranians, which allows them to save face a little.


The downing was most likely an accident, compounded by the incompetence of not grounding civilian aircraft during active military operations.

Looking at the video, it really appears like it was simply Iranians shooting down a civilian aircraft in their own airspace. 
It isn't Trumps fault if the Iranians were expecting an American attack in response to the Iranian rocket attacks.


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## doctrine (Sep 30, 2011)

Wow, blaming Trump? You can hate Trump, and still blame another country for shooting down a civilian airliner in its own airspace with its own anti-aircraft missiles with zero foreign forces within 500 kilometers. The Iranian government killed those people and now will spend the near future disputing, delaying, and confusing the facts as well as using anti-Trump organizations and individuals to further the disinformation fake-news campaigns online.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

We don't yet know which organization is responsible for shooting down the plane. It will take a while to figure this out, if we ever find out.

But we do know that this conflict of the last few weeks, the high tensions and itchy trigger fingers, are due to Trump's drone strike assassination and war-mongering. Trump has been working hard at antagonizing Iran for a while now. _He is the aggressor_.

If it turns out that Iranian forces shot down the plane, then blame is shared between the Iranians and Trump.

I always knew that Trump was eventually going to get a lot of people killed with his hostile talk and unchecked aggression, but I wouldn't have guessed Canadians.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

James, it is a bit silly don't you think to have such an obsession about Trump? The Iranians and their proxies have been reeking havoc for years and the terrorist had to be taken out. Should have been done years ago.

It was the Iranians who fired all those missiles into the 2 military bases and who had their fingers on the trigger that brought down the airliner. Be just a bit rational on this one.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

If Obama has killed Soleimani when he had the chance Trump wouldn't have had to act. But, instead he didn't, and then made sure that Iran had access to billions to help them acquire weapons.

It's Obama's fault two times over.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Lol...they even identified the missile as a Russian-supplied anti-_aircraft missile...take a valium. _Your Iranian friends you seem to sympathize with murdered those 126 people like the ignorant butchers they are.

Whats really insane is that they bought their missile defense system with USA money Obama sent them for signing the nuclear agreement.

Can't make this **** up.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Prairie Guy said:


> If Obama has killed Soleimani when he had the chance Trump wouldn't have had to act. But, instead he didn't, and then made sure that Iran had access to billions to help them acquire weapons.
> 
> It's Obama's fault two times over.



don't be silly. The above is equivalent to saying that WW II, the concentration camps & the gas chambers were all the fault of 1920s & 1930s british prime ministers Stanlely Baldwin & Ramsay macDonald, because they failed to exterminate Adolf Hitler while they were in power.


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> As people who fly in Boeing aircraft, I think we all need to know the story. Boeing already has all kinds of jumbo jets dropping out of the sky, and this is yet another one. .


Yesterday you were blaming Boeing.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

yyz said:


> Yesterday you were blaming Boeing.


You seem to have trouble reading my text, event though you quoted it. Go back and read it again. I blame Boeing for their other faulty jets, but did not blame Boeing for this one; I said we need to find out the cause.

It's too early to know exactly what the cause was. A thorough investigation will be needed before we know the cause.


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Ag Driver said:


> Anyways, you must have missed the video I posted of the missle flying through the air and striking the aircraft. A thorough investigation is not required to find the cause.


No investigation needed because you have a grainy internet video and amateur analysis by journalists? Are you kidding?

Do you have any idea how many man-hours of forensic work go into airline accident investigations?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

james4beach said:


> No investigation needed because you have a grainy internet video and amateur Facebook analysis? Are you kidding?



the NY Times endorsed & published the video

those were not amateur Facebook posters. Those were seasoned NY Times reporters. A story this big could only have come from the top rank of Times editors.

still, a formal investigation may be needed if - as expected - Iran denies responsibility


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Ag Driver said:


> Looked a lot like you wanted to point the finger at Boeing in more than one post. Let's call a spade a spade, shall we?
> 
> Anyways, you must have missed the video I posted of the missle flying through the air and striking the aircraft. A thorough investigation is not required to find the cause.


I think an investigation is still required.
The video hasn't even been authenticated.

I don't trust "the media" They get so much wrong it's embarrassing.
Even when they have the information they will blatantly lie to push their own narrative.


That being said I do think it is quite likely it was a mistake by the Iranians.
Fortunately the incident can be used to hit a pause button on Iranian hostilities.


As for James, I think it's a case of Trump derangement syndrome.
Apparently it's his fault that the Iranians mistakenly shot down an civilian aircraft?

I'm half expecting a claim that somehow it's Trumps fault that Australia has a serious arson problem.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trump isn't in charge of US foreign policy or the military anymore. He is incapacitated and suffering from some unspecified illness that affects his cognitive ability. 

Mike Pompeo and the war hawks are in charge. Solemeini is gone but was replaced in minutes.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

At the end of the day, it looks like Trump ripping up the nuclear deal with Iran and applying sanctions has created massive problems.

Iraq is going to kick the US out. ISIS will move back in. Iran will develop nuclear weapons and Russia will become more aggressive in the region.

Trillions of US dollars (all borrowed to be paid by future taxpayers) were wasted, while Americans can't afford universal healthcare for themselves.

The rise and fall of an empire in real time.......live and on CNN.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

Ag Driver said:


> Now who can't read even though you quoted me.
> 
> To find the cause. The cause. The cause was not a shiney pretty light that is said to be the tooth ferry flying through the night to place a dollar under a pillow. It was a missile.
> 
> ...


LOL, not that I disagree that it was probably a missile fired in error by some poor Iranian army guy sitting in a missile battery on high alert for a response to Iran hitting the US bases in Iraq, but I don't see how experience in the aviation industry for 2 decades makes anyone an expert on ground to air missiles and how things work.

That's no different than saying that because I drive a car I know about how a tire blows out. If I want to know how a tire blows out, I ask a tire maker not a car driver. If I want to know if a video is really likely to be showing me a missile hitting a plane, I ask a missile strike analyst, not a plane driver.

It's amusing how some people can think their knowledge of one thing means they have knowledge of an entirely different thing.

I agree it LOOKS LIKE a missile striking something in the video but I am not an expert on videos or missiles and will leave it to those who are experts in those fields to provide input rather than try to suggest I KNOW what happened.


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## jargey3000 (Jan 25, 2011)

.....haven't read this whole thread, but does anyone else find it odd ( if thats the right word, maybe 'interesting' is better), that there appears to be no Americans on board?......


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## Ag Driver (Dec 13, 2012)

Deleted.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

jargey3000 said:


> .....haven't read this whole thread, but does anyone else find it odd ( if thats the right word, maybe 'interesting' is better), that there appears to be no Americans on board?......


The US and Iran have been openly hostile to each other for many years.

Lots of Iranian professionals immigrate to Canada, they're generally quite well educated and able to assimilate to Canadian culture quite well.


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## yyz (Aug 11, 2013)

james4beach said:


> You seem to have trouble reading my text, event though you quoted it. Go back and read it again. I blame Boeing for their other faulty jets, but did not blame Boeing for this one; I said we need to find out the cause.
> 
> It's too early to know exactly what the cause was. A thorough investigation will be needed before we know the cause.


I can read thanks. Maybe when you make this statement you can interpret it for me? You make it sound like it's a daily thing.

"Boeing already has all kinds of jumbo jets dropping out of the sky, and this is yet another one. ."


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

There aren't enough ones and zeroes in the world to account for how many deaths resulted from Obama's policies.

But he's a messiah to the media and the left so he gets a free pass.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Trump isn't in charge of US foreign policy or the military anymore. He is incapacitated and suffering from some unspecified illness that affects his cognitive ability.


And his competition is Joe Biden who is one of the most crooked politicians in the US, who probably has Alzheimer's, and who has a habit of inappropriately touching young children.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

Prairie Guy said:


> And his competition is Joe Biden who is one of the most crooked politicians in the US, who probably has Alzheimer's, and who has a habit of inappropriately touching young children.


Trump has consensual sex with pornstars. How dare HE!


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Bios of the people on the plane who were en route to Canada. Many university students among them, many PhD students.

https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/flightps752/

But what really gets me are the entire families being wiped out.

Family of three from Vancouver
Family of four from Edmonton (mom, dad, two young daughters)
Mother and two daughters from Edmonton
Family of three from Winnipeg
...


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

This is why terrorists need to be wiped out instead of being coddled or paid off by idiotic PM's or presidents.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

jargey3000 said:


> .....haven't read this whole thread, but does anyone else find it odd ( if thats the right word, maybe 'interesting' is better), that there appears to be no Americans on board?......


Yes, I was surprised there wasn't a single American on board. There are 1.5 million Iranian Americans living in the US and many probably have family in Iran.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

MrMatt said:


> Trump has consensual sex with pornstars. How dare HE!


Trump had a lot of non consensual sex as well, but those days are over. They call him Diaper Don now.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

At least the Iranians have now admitted to unintentionally bringing down the plane. Too much evidence to deny it any longer.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Prairie Guy said:


> This is why terrorists need to be wiped out instead of being coddled or paid off by idiotic PM's or presidents.



shooting down the ukraine flight was not a terrorist attack. It was a missile mistakenly launched by iranian military. 

Iran could also mistakenly launch a nuclear bomb. Which is why the nuclear pact brought about by barack obama was so crucial. It's the only way to rein in rogue nations who already have nuclear. There are too many of those rogue nations now, unofficial count numbers them at 12-18.

destroying the US-Iran nuclear pact was an extreme aggression by donald trump, who opened up the weapons tap weeks ago with his retaliatory bombings after Iran killed an american contractor. Killing Soleimani is another hyper-aggression from the white house, without congressional approval. For every soleimani rubbed out, ten thousand enraged middle easterners are going to take his place.

the working solution that's in place with rogue nuclear nations is to search for & negotiate non-deadly economic & political pressures that will draw Iran & the other rogues towards the global community of nations, not force them out. This approach appears to be working with china, although donald trump is a markedly clumsy negotiator.

only a six-year-old in a sandbox would yap about "wiping out" foreigners. Qassem soleimani was an actively serving general in the army of a foreign power. Never before has a US president ordered the domestic assassination of a foreign general without an act of war.

others have noted the distinction between the ISIL leaders whose drone assassinations barack obama supported so assidiously & the killing of soleimani. ISIL was not a state, it was & still remains a network of terrorists spread over part of the globe. The iranian general on the other hand was a high-ranking officer in the military of a recognized nation that was not at war with the United States.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Apparently the US had another Iranian government official targeted in Yemen, but lost the opportunity.

If the world consensus is that political leaders and government officials are now fair game for assassination by another government, the world just became a more dangerous place.

It seems like assassination is becoming just another "ho hum" news event. Kim Jong Un kills his brother in South Korea....oh well. The Saudis kill the journalist Kashoggi....oh gee.

The world has crossed a long established and respected line. Humans always forget to be careful what they wish for because they just might get it in ways they haven't considered.

Listen to any debate between Israel and Palestine supporters and it soon reveals a "tit for tat" history used to justify war and violence for centuries.


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## Prairie Guy (Oct 30, 2018)

sags said:


> Apparently the US had another Iranian government official targeted in Yemen, but lost the opportunity.
> 
> If the world consensus is that political leaders and government officials are now fair game for assassination by another government, the world just became a more dangerous place.


A terrorist is still a terrorist, regardless of their title. Obama's pallets of cash didn't work because paying off bullies only encourages their behaviour. It's time for a different approach.


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

Prairie Guy said:


> A terrorist is still a terrorist, regardless of their title. Obama's pallets of cash didn't work because paying off bullies only encourages their behaviour. It's time for a different approach.



you do not even know to whom sags is referring. Yet out of the sandbox you are ready to label the Yemen party a "terrorist" who should be "wiped out."

don't you understand that there are international courts of justice for deciding war crimes & there are international protocols for conducting warfare & a US president should gain the full authorization of congress & senate before he impulsively carries out executions of foreigners on foreign soil.

the United States is supposed to be the leader of the free & democratic western alliance. When the white house is occupied by an out-of-control borderline who assassinates anybody he feels like because he has personally decided they are terrorists, then the west has moved into an uncharted & dangerous new environment.

there are many who view trump's recent warlike actions as merely attempts to distract american voters from his critics during an election year. I share that point of view.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

jargey3000 said:


> .....haven't read this whole thread, but does anyone else find it odd ( if thats the right word, maybe 'interesting' is better), that there appears to be no Americans on board?......


No, it is just a question of the popularity of the route with a specific demographic jargey3000. It connects to a direct flight to Toronto and is the most common route for Iranian Canadians to take even if then connecting to elsewhere in Canada from Toronto. There are many flights that airlines fly just to cater to a specific demographic. Chances are that on any given day this flight is primarily made of of Iranian Canadians returning to Canada.

For example, Edelweiss Air flies direct flights during the warmer months from Switzerland direct to Calgary. Their primary market is Swiss going to visit Banff National Park, etc and returning., not Canadians going to visit Switzerland. The majority of passengers on their flights will always be Swiss, not Canadians and it's also not hard to conceive that you would not be likely to find many Americans taking those flights.


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## Longtimeago (Aug 8, 2018)

sags said:


> Yes, I was surprised there wasn't a single American on board. There are 1.5 million Iranian Americans living in the US and many probably have family in Iran.


Same answer as for jargey3000 sags. It is a question of which demographic group is the flight aimed at. I'm sure there are flights to/from the USA that connect to a flight somewhere in Europe to Iran, that are popular with Iranian Americans, this just isn't one of those flights. 

Ask yourself this question, why were there no non-Iranian Canadians on the flight? As far as I know there were none, all 63 Canadian citizens were Iranian Canadians. Answer, the flight caters to a specific demographic market segment. The percentage of outliers will always be a small percentage.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

humble_pie said:


> you do not even know to whom sags is referring. Yet out of the sandbox you are ready to label the Yemen party a "terrorist" who should be "wiped out."
> 
> don't you understand that there are international courts of justice for deciding war crimes & there are international protocols for conducting warfare & a US president should gain the full authorization of congress & senate before he impulsively carries out executions of foreigners on foreign soil.
> 
> ...


Abdul Reza Shahlai
US Treasury designated Shahlai as a terrorist under Executive Order (E.O.) 13438.

The only reason Trump is getting these guys is because Obama didn't get the chance. Obama authorized thousands of drone strikes.


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## OptsyEagle (Nov 29, 2009)

MrMatt said:


> Abdul Reza Shahlai
> US Treasury designated Shahlai as a terrorist under Executive Order (E.O.) 13438.
> 
> The only reason Trump is getting these guys is because Obama didn't get the chance. Obama authorized thousands of drone strikes.


What I find interesting, is if Obama had of whacked that Iranian General, the lion's share of us would already be discussing this from the perspective that the Iranian General was a really bad dude. Since Trump did it, even Congress wants him to prove it. In some instances I do feel sorry for Trump although most of where he is, is from his own doing.


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## MrMatt (Dec 21, 2011)

OptsyEagle said:


> What I find interesting, is if Obama had of whacked that Iranian General, the lion's share of us would already be discussing this from the perspective that the Iranian General was a really bad dude. Since Trump did it, even Congress wants him to prove it. In some instances I do feel sorry for Trump although most of where he is, is from his own doing.


It's a typical thing, people hold Conservatives/Right leaning politicians to a higher standard.

Trump is very centrist by US standards, he's just a bit more of a loudmouth than Americans want from their president.


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