# Canada Going Down The Drain



## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...g-suicides-overwhelmed-food-banks-and-worst-y

First this is zero hedge and second the headline is misleading as we are mostly talking about Alberta.

However maybe this year we face a drop in housing prices taking down Vancouver and Toronto. Of course we have all heard this one for many years.

If you read the comments from americans they point to our surge in refugees as a negative that will surge our crime wave.

They of course point out the error in our ways not to have guns.

It is interesting reading the american comments about us which in many cases is false.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

Yeah I'm used to "doom & gloom" posts from Garth: http://www.greaterfool.ca/2015/12/23/hark, but was surprised to read a similar rant from Keith: http://www.valuetrend.ca/keiths-rant-some-animals-are-more-equal-than-others

Yet Jason Donville sounded hopeful:

"I expect the TSX to outperform most western equity markets including the major indices in the US, in 2016.

My optimism stems from two sources. First, the correction in Canadian equity markets in 2015 has created a great deal of value in the market with a large number of growth stocks now trading on less than 10x 2016 earnings. Second, we doubt that $35 oil is sustainable and expect that some kind of recovery in the price of crude in 2016 will give Canada and its stock market a boost."

Being an optimist myself, I choose to listen to JD - until proven wrong


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I think a TSX outperformance will be because of a negative US dollar 2016 if we see it. Crude prices should recover because of the overcrowded trade the other way, but I hear Iran may be able to pump in 2 million barrels a day in 2016. We are coming off a low commodity price going into 2016 so it should be interesting.


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## Moneytoo (Mar 26, 2014)

"May we live in interesting times"...


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

The comments ? Well what can you say about some Americans.

Donald Trump says Hillary Clinton got "schlonged" by Obama, and his poll numbers went UP. That is the level of political discourse the Republican Party has sunk.

Living in Canada and gazing southward into the US is like looking into the gorilla cage at the zoo.

Fascinating at first.........but then he starts doing rude things and you realize he is just a waypoint in the evolutionary chain.


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## My Own Advisor (Sep 24, 2012)

YTD TSX is -8%. That won't change for the next few days. Smart buyers will be buying beaten up energy, financial and other stocks that have taken a small beating this year. What goes down must come back up eventually. Will the TSX roar back next year? Not likely, but it will come back at some point to new market highs. It always has.


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Canada needs to make some serious changes if we want to hold on to a top tier economy. The world is moving away from raw materials only economies. They work in boom times but do they take it on the chin when the music stops.

Somehow we need to unhook our dollar from crude first of all and then get some value added business, technology, health care innovations going. We have nothing. The TSX is filled with oil companies banks and miners.


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## OnlyMyOpinion (Sep 1, 2013)

sags said:


> ...
> Living in Canada and gazing southward into the US is like looking into the gorilla cage at the zoo.
> Fascinating at first.........but then he starts doing rude things and you realize he is just a waypoint in the evolutionary chain.


^+1 What a great image, I love it.:applouse:


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Vancouver and Toronto have a lot going on that isn't just based on commodities. Sure they do a lot of business through shipping and offices in the commodities sector but they don't fall apart so quickly if one commodity goes south like Alberta does. Alberta also has an NDP government trying to tax a sector that is already in trouble so we will see how this goes.

The comments are interesting aren't they Sags the americans think we are getting what we deserve. I like this one from latina lover, like any of us are going to escape to the south for their benefits. 

"Oh Great, now that Canada is melting down, are we to expect millions of Canucks sneaking into America to mooch off our welfare systems?"


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## andrewf (Mar 1, 2010)

Laughable. Canada has a much more robust social safety net. Health insurance alone is something most Canadians take for granted, and most of the Americans I talk to sound traumatized by their experiences in dealing with it.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Canada is a rich country blessed with valuable natural resources of all kinds that the rest of the world needs. As long as we are embarrassed about this we will continue to under perform.


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## Janus (Oct 23, 2013)

Eder said:


> Canada is a rich country blessed with valuable natural resources of all kinds that the rest of the world needs. As long as we are embarrassed about this we will continue to under perform.


What? The value of those natural resources has more than halved. What's embarrassment got to do about it?


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Eder said:


> Canada is a rich country blessed with valuable natural resources of all kinds that the rest of the world needs. As long as we are embarrassed about this we will continue to under perform.


i agree except we now have a government whose most ardent supporters (and allies to the extent that the greens and ndp are allies) have made not taking those resources out of the ground a top priority, it won't work completely but it might work partially and that could be painful

andrew, i agree completely about health care in the usa, it's essentially an ongoing traumatization for the whole country, everyone worries constantly about losing health care coverage



> Living in Canada and gazing southward into the US is like looking into the gorilla cage at the zoo.
> 
> Fascinating at first.........but then he starts doing rude things and you realize he is just a waypoint in the evolutionary chain.


you really don't understand american politics, versions of trump have been coming and going for decades, it's part of the show, george wallace, jesse helms, barry goldwater, i could on, 

america loves to flirt with lunatics from time to time, they are protest votes, they are an expression of discontent

guess how it often ends up ? ... a skinny egghead black professor gets in .... hmmm

it's worth noting that gorillas, while not the brightest of the high primates are generally "calm, reserved and patient".

you probably meant to say "chimps"


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Trump was discussed today on MSNBC radio, and the consensus was he is the first in memory who seems bent on destroying his own party.

It makes one wonder why someone like Trump would put so much effort into winning a nomination, but destroying his chance of winning the general election at the same time.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

sags said:


> Trump was discussed today on MSNBC radio, and the consensus was he is the first in memory who seems bent on destroying his own party.
> 
> It makes one wonder why someone like Trump would put so much effort into winning a nomination, but destroying his chance of winning the general election at the same time.


i would put it differently and say that he is giving the party exactly what they deserve ... he is the flower of the pathetic, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific, quasi-rascist seeds their party has been planting for the last 25 years

i agree that he a mystery, some think he really doesn't even want the office, others have pointed out that he isn't really a racist as he has many black friends and supporters

i tend to think he is just another of the many egomaniacs that inhabit public life and he tapped into alienated-populist rage that simmers especially among marginalized whites and he is enjoying the limelight though running for president is no fun, it is grueling

get nbc to offer him the apprentice again and he would probably quit

super tuesday is march 1st ... i say he won't survive it though frankly i don't know where the party wants to go and he may be the symbol that sinks the ship and destroys the party, maybe they need to finish off the old so they can build anew

the party is basically defunct, they have built a set of cardinal principles (anti-evolution, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, anti-everything) that is out of step with the emerging electorate and the smart ones among them know it but the smart ones are not trump supporters, the dumb angry ones are trump supporters

we are 2 months away from seeing this really shape up


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

Going down the drain. Never.

We live in a fabulous country. We are the envy of many people, many countries. We are a nation that is wealthy beyond it's dreams. 

Yes we have challenges but our challenges are manageable and they are miniscule compare to other nations. We need to open our eyes wide and see how really fortunate we all are.

Don't blame Governments. We elect them....with an embarrassingly low voter turnout. We should be looking in the mirror.

Sometimes I think we sound like a bunch of spoiled brats with silver spoons in our collective mouths. 

Every time I have occasion to look at my Canadian passport I think of how lucky I am to have one, and to belong here.


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## RBull (Jan 20, 2013)

A misleading headline and commentary from someone with a clear agenda. 

The first page or so of comments below were entertainingly predictable, probably from a minority of Americans whose arrogance, ignorance and selective memories are without equal. 

I agree we certainly have our problems and some tougher times ahead but traveling the world helps a person understand just how fortunate we are. We have had many positive comments about Canada and Canadian citizens in our travels.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Really it all comes down to how we go about extracting and selling our natural recourses. Trade deals and such have done us a great disservice as we send for example raw logs overseas to be processed. Then having them go to the US to be made into furniture or come back to sell to us directly as a finished product. 

The other problem is we are ashamed, as eder eluded to, of the dirty work to extract our recourses. We need to find the middle ground between raping the land and not touching anything. Both of these extremes are idiotic and so many canadians find themselves in these two camps.

On the other hand during and after the 80's we were on the path to going down the drain as our debt and deficits were on the verge of destroying us. And now with recourse prices low and Trudeau promising ever increasing deficits as well as bringing in as many refugees as possible we may be on a very bad path once again.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

dogcom said:


> And now with resource prices low and Trudeau promising ever increasing deficits as well as bringing in as many refugees as possible we may be on a very bad path once again.


I did not vote for him specifically but I would give him some time. If we can survive Harper and Mulroney, I think we are good to go with JT.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

You are right about that kcowan at this time it is early although a concern.

I think you go back far enough to the 70's and 80's when we heard the GDP to debt ratio BS. This BS lead us to near catastrophe in the late 80's to early 90's.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

dogcom said:


> You are right about that kcowan at this time it is early although a concern.
> 
> I think you go back far enough to the 70's and 80's when we heard the GDP to debt ratio BS. This BS lead us to near catastrophe in the late 80's to early 90's.


You don't have to go that far. During the election, there was no commitment by any party to pay down the debt, rather just reduce the ratio.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...w-the-economy/article20871579/?service=mobile


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## birdman (Feb 12, 2013)

I think that we as Canadians are blessed with this great country we live in. We don't have to think primarily about oil, gas, and minerals as resources. What about our abundant farm land, water (salt and fresh), lumber, beautiful mountains for tourism (skiing, fishing, sightseeing, backpacking, climbing, etc), beaches, beautiful cities, camping, tourism, shopping, and on and on it goes. I would live nowhere else. Sure, we may go through some difficult times but this is normal in any economy. In the mid 80's the prime rate was 22.5% and we survived that, we survived a couple of severe downturns in the stock market, high government deficits, and I am sure there are others that I can't think of right now. I agree that there are currently some challenges but am confident they will be overcome.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Yes, aren't we fortunate to be surrounded by 3 oceans and have 5 Great Lakes in our midst, along with countless rivers and lakes. 

We have so many small lakes in Canada that we have run out of unique names for them. How many "Lost Lakes" are there in Canada ?

As one travels across Canada and sees the changing topography, it is truly amazing, and hardly anyone living on pristine lakes and forests for hundreds of miles at a stretch.

We can do a better job economically, and many past governments should have done so.

We have to extract our natural resources. It is our strength, but we should be more than "haulers of wood and hewers of water". We should be filling in the gaps between resource and finished product.

Governments can help with "seed" money partnerships, that allow small business to get established. We can't rely on big corporations to create jobs.

There is no reason to complain about being Canadian or living in Canada, but we can always strive for better and hopefully we do.


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## lonewolf (Jun 12, 2012)

bgc_fan said:


> You don't have to go that far. During the election, there was no commitment by any party to pay down the debt, rather just reduce the ratio.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...w-the-economy/article20871579/?service=mobile



Getting rid of the debt would destroy the economy there would be no money in circulation.

The system would have to be replaced if there was no debt.


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## lost in space (Aug 31, 2015)

--


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> YTD TSX is -8%. That won't change for the next few days.


 -8% it's in our petro-dollars.... In normal currency it's down almost 30% , thus many months we're in bear market


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

sags said:


> Yes, aren't we fortunate to be surrounded by 3 oceans and have 5 Great Lakes in our midst, along with countless rivers and lakes.
> 
> We have so many small lakes in Canada that we have run out of unique names for them. How many "Lost Lakes" are there in Canada ?
> 
> ...


well said, we have been talking about a refinery in kitimat on the bc coast that would take dirty oil from the oils ands and turn it in to refined products which are in demand and can be safely transported across the pacific to all kinds of markets

it would generate good jobs in construction, good jobs in operation and abundant tax dollars

but the greens and ndp and Liberals want to shut it down ... they don't want it to see the light of day ever


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I get so very tired of the right wingers going on about how fiscally good Conservative Governments are and how bad fiscally right wing Liberal Governments are.

Take a look at the actual stats.

-look at the fiscal mess, absolute and ratio, that was left by the Mulroney Government. We were on the edge. And CPP was on the edge as well. The edge of disaster. Paul Martin was left to clean it up and Cretien gave him the latitude to do it. Those were the days when Cabinet Ministers were actually allowed to run their departments, hold press conferences, and make statements WITHOUT seeking the permission of the short pant toadies in the PMO.

And Harper. When I heard talk about balanced budgets during the election I laughed. Did he ever balance even one? And he patently lied about balancing this last one.

Economist.....check again. Did he ever work as a true economist. I would put John McCallums CV and work experience as an economist up against Harper's any day. Harper was and is simply garden variety arm chair economist.

So all you extreme right wingers...take a look at the actual numbers instead or relying on rhetoric. You may be in for a big surprise.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

And yet union people support these very same people like the NDP who don't want good paying union jobs seeing the light of day. Christy Clark won the last BC election because union workers were more interested in having a job then just a promise for more money and better working conditions in jobs that don't exist.


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

fraser said:


> I would put John McCallums CV and work experience as an economist up against Harper's any day. Harper was and is simply garden variety arm chair economist.


So then, why exactly is McCallum the Immigration Minister, while Bill Morneau, a career businessman and 1st term MP the Finance Minister? 

McCallum was not involved with finance even in Chretien & Martin cabinet.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

I never said McCallum was in the Cretien Gov't. He was not. Nor did I say he was finance minister or even suggest it. Just pointing out the differences in levels of expertise between the two Governments. 

Morneau is/was a career business person. More than that, he was running one of Canada's largest HR and pension specialty companies. A man who is very familiar with Bay Street. Why not? Sounds perfect to me. 

And what's more, they both actually speak to the public and to the press. My guess is that each of them have probably spent more time in press conferences/scrums than Harper did in 10 years and probably more than Harper and his entire cabinet in the last four years. 

I do not count those appearances by the PMO staff....Kory Teneycke, Guy Giorno, etc.

My point was instead of focusing on rhetoric that folks should take a look at the actual financial records of some of the so called fiscal conservatives. They were less than fiscally conservative.

What I now find so refreshing to realize that Rona Ambrose does have a voice and now appears to be able to speak. Same with a bunch of other former Harper ministers. And most of them seem to have had their upper lips healed from the swelling caused by having duct tape on their mouths for all those years when they served in the Harper Gov't,


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## Userkare (Nov 17, 2014)

fraser said:


> I never said McCallum was in the Cretien Gov't. He was not.



We're talking about John McCallum, the current Immigration Minister, no?

Defence Minister 2002-2003 under Chretien
Veterans Affairs Minister 2003-2004 under Martin


I'm not saying anything bad about the guy, he seemed to have done some good things in office. I'm just curious why, with his background as RBC Chief Economist for 6 years, he wasn't tapped by either Chretien, Martin, or Trudeau Jr. for the Finance post. Perhaps he was asked, but preferred a different portfolio. I don't know. In these strange economic times, I would want him in that position, even if he didn't want to be there.


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## kcowan (Jul 1, 2010)

fatcat said:


> but the greens and ndp and Liberals want to shut it down ... they don't want it to see the light of day ever


I understand the main concern is an oil spill along the Pacific coast. Same as with the KM expansion.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

There is good reason for concern about oil tanker spills.

The Exxon Valdez ran aground 25 years ago, and the area still hasn't recovered and may never recover from the environmental damage.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/23/opinion/holleman-exxon-valdez-anniversary/

Interesting to watch the Captain explain how the "accident" happened..........all due to human error by the coast guard and third mate.

I have also read about oil tar balls still washing up on Louisiana beaches and dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico from the BP spill.

Getting the oil to the coast isn't the biggest danger. A spill there is easier to limit and clean up. In the ocean.........with super tankers holding that much oil, it is impossible to clean up entirely.

I can't imagine that anyone living along the BC coast would want an oil shipping hub located there. There isn't much support from people living along a pipeline route either.

This is one of those NIMBY projects, like nuclear reactors...........which people say we need but nobody wants it near where they live.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

There is no real science behind T2's decision to shut down tanker traffic on BC's coast...that was just a plain silly thing he did to appease his owners. Must be a lot of US dollars funding his war on our economy.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

i share the same concern of many about a heavy oil spill on the west coast

the kitimat proposal would take bitumen and refine it into lighter and much less dangerous petroleum products, any spill would be much easier to clean up and much less damaging than bunker/bitumen oil

if we are going to use the standard of never having a spill then we will lock our petro resources into the ground in perpetuity

spills are always a risk but there is always a price to be paid for economic growth, it brings risks



> There is no real science behind T2's decision to shut down tanker traffic on BC's coast...that was just a plain silly thing he did to appease his owners. Must be a lot of US dollars funding his war on our economy.


 correct, he is responding to very big environmental money that is bound and determined to shut every resource extraction project in the country down, to hell with the havoc on our economy


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## Causalien (Apr 4, 2009)

fatcat said:


> i share the same concern of many about a heavy oil spill on the west coast
> 
> the kitimat proposal would take bitumen and refine it into lighter and much less dangerous petroleum products, any spill would be much easier to clean up and much less damaging than bunker/bitumen oil
> 
> ...


Shutting down oil is good. I'd like to see canada go back to design, engineering and manufacturing roots. We can look up to Netherlands. There is a way without using oil and Canada is not Saudi Arabia.


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## fraser (May 15, 2010)

We have lived in Alberta since 2000 and we have retired here. People in this Province were so pro Harper and so Pro Conservative, well the Reform wing of the Conservative Party. 

It is a little different now that the rubber has hit the road in Alberta-the economy is in the toilet.

People who aimlessly voted for the same party Provincially and Federally are waking up.

The question on the tip of many people's tongues-those in the industry and the general population is this:

We had 10-11 years of both a Conservative Provincial Government and a Conservative Federal Government. In all that time were any pipelines built or approved that would take Alberta's resources outside the province? Surprise. Not one. 

Not only was there not one, we actually had negative progress on Keystone thanks in part to a regressive environmental policy at both the Federal and Provincial levels. We handed Mr. Obama a silver plate with all the reasons why he could accede to the environmentalist's issues in the US and veto the pipeline.

On Northern Gateway, we had an oil company so confident of approval that they actually changed the map of Canada on their website and displayed their ocean terminal as being at clear ocean when it was in fact about 125 KM away through what the Canadian Coast Guard describes as treacherous waters with multiple islands. And then they decided that their original pipeline proposal was not really state of the art. They decided to promote a new and improved, safer version of pipeline. This was how confident they were that these two Governments could make it happen. But alas, it did not.


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## fatcat (Nov 11, 2009)

Causalien said:


> Shutting down oil is good. I'd like to see canada go back to design, engineering and manufacturing roots. We can look up to Netherlands. There is a way without using oil and Canada is not Saudi Arabia.


huh ? ... we are 3rd in the world for proven reserves ... i would not rule out the possibility that we will continue to improve methods for both extracting and refining oil with less carbon impact ... don't compare us to the netherlands but rather compare us to norway usually regarded as the best place to live in the world with their huge sovereign oil fund


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Norway exported their environmental catastrophe to our West Coast in the form of salmon farms...much more dangerous to our ocean than oil tankers...but of course we don't care about that because it is not the crisis de jour.


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

Here is an article from Bloomberg saying how Canadians are freaking out about the currency collapse and the cost of food and such. I read another article warning Americans about how a currency collapse would look and feel like by watching Canada and its currency toady.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...social-media-about-skyrocketing-grocery-bills


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Canadians are freaking out about the currency collapse and the cost of food and such.


Canadians gonna switch to apples and carrots pretty soon..
For a long time I was telling that Canada is a typical "banana republic", "true-patriots" were always criticizing me. telling that Canada not on;y commodities, but also consulting, science and blah, blah, blah ..... We see now where Canadian consulting are 
CAD$ down the toilet not only comparing to USD, but in 1 year 21% down comparing to Israeli shekel where real high tech exist ... At least my mom, will be getting much higher pension in perto-dollars


However, Mr. Justin doesn't give a ****...he's concentrated on syrian refugees and climate change ... those categories give much better international PR :stupid:


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

Oilpatch worker urges Justin Trudeau to help Alberta in widely shared Facebook post
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...erta-in-widely-shared-facebook-post-1.3406205

Good luck with that.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> questioning why the Liberal government has given away "BILLIONS of Canadian taxpayer dollars to other countries."
> 
> "Please start helping our own people through these tough times," the letter urged.
> 
> "You wanted to be the leader of our country. Show some leadership skills and work with the West for once. Please forget about your image on the "World Stage" for a while and focus on your own country. That's all I ask."


and they are right!


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## dogcom (May 23, 2009)

I agree with the letter and further more Canadians are damn lucky Alberta never left Canada after the enormous amount of money they have shipped to the east year after year for decades.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Ha ha ha good one. How about all the billions Canada poured into Alberta before the oil boom?


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

As funny it is to read the message, the fact of the matter is that it is not profitable to produce oil at these prices, so what exactly is the federal government supposed to do? Even the energy east pipeline isn't going to do much if the oil sands aren't producing. Not to mention the fact that with 4 years and a majority, the Conservatives weren't able to advance it. How do you expect a new government of 3 months to get that far with it. As far as I know, they hadn't rejected it yet.
Oh, I get it, we should only by Canadian oil right? Gee, that sounds like state control of an industry. That's socialism isn't it? Isn't capitalism all about the best price for me?
And then complaining about the EI changes. Well it didn't seem to be an issue when the previous government made them. After all, it only affected those lazy people in the East who wouldn't move West to join the oil boom.
Basically it is just another Conservative when it happens to others, but when it affects me, I want my social net.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> How do you expect a new government of 3 months to get that far with it.


 the new goverment started with wasting billions on international PR


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I think the point is that T2 seems preoccupied with an agenda that has no plan for the current state of our economy. Of course a couple pipelines will not solve our problems now, but would they help? Of course and not only would it not cost the taxpayers a dime,it would add to jobs, tax base,billions in spin off activity. Would it show a bit of vision if T2 deemed Energy East in the national interest? Of course but that would take a pair.

Sorry I'm a bit cranky, but there is stuff we can do in Canada right now other than selfies.


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## GoldStone (Mar 6, 2011)

gibor said:


> the new goverment started with wasting billions on international PR


Yup.

$2.65 billion to help developing countries fight climate change. Announced on Nov 28. It would be interesting to trace the money trail. How much ends up in the Swiss bank accounts; how much comes back to the Liberal-friendly companies in Canada.


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

At least he hasn't made any billion dollar fake lakes trying to impress the g8 leaders for a weekend yet so that's a plus


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## mrPPincer (Nov 21, 2011)

http://www.nationalobserver.com/201...id-things-harper-government-spent-tax-dollars


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Pipelines are yesterday's solution to today's problems.

We need to refine our oil into useful products..........from distillates to plastics.

From branch plant mentality in manufacturing to "dig it up and ship it out" mentality in commodities, Canada has always been lazy to develop it's own value added industries.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

sags said:


> We need to refine our oil into useful products..........from distillates to plastics.


We have already been doing this for 60 years in Alberta and are presently building a new (and unneeded) refinery but it is foolish to think we don't need to export raw materials.


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## bgc_fan (Apr 5, 2009)

Eder said:


> I think the point is that T2 seems preoccupied with an agenda that has no plan for the current state of our economy. Of course a couple pipelines will not solve our problems now, but would they help? Of course and not only would it not cost the taxpayers a dime,it would add to jobs, tax base,billions in spin off activity. Would it show a bit of vision if T2 deemed Energy East in the national interest? Of course but that would take a pair.
> 
> Sorry I'm a bit cranky, but there is stuff we can do in Canada right now other than selfies.


Maybe it wasn't too evident or people forgot, but one of the planks of the Liberal campaign was a stimulus package. Something that would help alleviate the economic downturn. As far as I know, it is still going through and may be sped up due to the worsening conditions. Remember the Conservative government was against any sort of stimulus plan as of July 2015. I don't know if they would have changed their minds now, but consider that when you think that the Liberals don't have a plan. Maybe they haven't spent hundreds of millions advertising their "Economic Action Plan" (oh, that name was taken, let's call it the Economic Kickstarter Plan) to remind everyone that they are setting up programs to deal with the downturn in the economy, even though some of the programs don't exist. 

Short on details, yes, but that is to be expected since most if not all the details will probably be revealed during the budget.

Maybe we should stay the course and not do anything. 

As for the Energy East Pipeline, I'm personally in favour of it. However, even if the Federal Government blesses the project, you still need Ontario, Quebec and the Aboriginals to sign off on that. This is not something that is going to be solved overnight. 



Eder said:


> We have already been doing this for 60 years in Alberta and are presently building a new (and unneeded) refinery but it is foolish to think we don't need to export raw materials.


Thing is though, it is the value added input that brings more money to the table, i.e. refined gas over crude oil. Grant it, there may be issues that I am unaware of when it comes to transport, but I don't see why we were prefer exporting the cheaper crude oil if we could make more by exporting gas. The flip side is that it is a little ludicrous to export crude oil and then importing refined gas.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

sags said:


> ... We need to refine our oil into useful products..........from distillates to plastics.
> 
> From branch plant mentality in manufacturing to "dig it up and ship it out" mentality in commodities, Canada has always been lazy to develop it's own value added industries.


Canada has rarely supported those who wanted to do it.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as "lazy" considering that until some questionable management decisions plus a rookie PM who didn't realise what the consequences would be of a flat out cancellation ... Avro Arrow was *the* place to be on the cutting edge.

[It also didn't help that the previous gov't nixed Avro selling their jet liner (the second to fly in the world behind the Brits by about two weeks) to Howard Hughes or a joint manufacting venture as they wanted fighters instead for the Korean war.]


Cheers


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## gentlepuppies (Jan 17, 2016)

I have a lot of leftover euros from my travels that I bought way back when it was $1.60 Canadian. Should I convert them back to cdn asap, or count on the dollar to keep dropping?


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## humble_pie (Jun 7, 2009)

sags said:


> Pipelines are yesterday's solution to today's problems.
> 
> We need to refine our oil into useful products..........from distillates to plastics.



sags u might recall that early in the humungous trans-canada pipeline thread, we had a participant named Val who was a US-based natural gas executive. 

when the issue of why-don't-we-have-our-own-refineries came up, Val said that the costs of building these are insane. Billions $$. Which is why it's still cheaper to ship to asia. Except that right now asia isn't buying much.

at the other extreme, ISIL is said to have recently developed mobile refineries after the US-led coalition bombed out many of their captured refineries in iraq & syria. I'd never heard of a mobile refinery, what is it? some kind of little tank in a wheelbarrow, with a fire underneath & pipes at various levels to siphon off the condensates?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Strange isn't it ?

ISIS can make refineries out of left over junk and we need billions of dollars.

I read that the oil the Keystone Pipeline would be transporting would be the low grade bitumen, which is fetching about $8 a barrel today. Much of other Canadian production is low grade fetching $10 a barrel.

In North Dakota, the high sulphur oil producers have to pay the refiners to take it off their hands. A refinery owned by the Koch brothers offered - 50 cents a barrel, but changed it to $1.50.

When the world is awash in oil, the quality and grade of the oil becomes more important. Canada is not well positioned to sell any oil and refining it might be our only option besides leaving it in the ground for better days.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...kota-crude-oil-that-s-worth-less-than-nothing


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Canada refining all our oil into products before export is no different than baking all our wheat crop into Hostess Twinkies for export or all our beef into pepperoni sticks before export. 
.


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## el oro (Jun 16, 2009)

sags said:


> Strange isn't it ?
> 
> ISIS can make refineries out of left over junk and we need billions of dollars.


Hmm I wonder if ISIS follows comparable labour and environmental regulations...

Refinery cost kills the idea. Also, if we refine more here, we still need more pipelines. How is that going these days?


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

el oro said:


> ... Also, if we refine more here, we still need more pipelines.
> How is that going these days?


Depends on whether the conversion to finished products are close to the refineries or not.
According to a couple of different sources, despite the regional imbalance that pipelines would help, Canada refines more than it uses.


Cheers


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## tygrus (Mar 13, 2012)

Eder said:


> Canada refining all our oil into products before export is no different than baking all our wheat crop into Hostess Twinkies for export or all our beef into pepperoni sticks before export.
> .


We don't export live cattle dude. They are slaughtered and trimmed right here. Thats an extra level of processing. 

What about our lumber. Surely to god somebody can make economical furniture right here out of it.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

tygrus said:


> What about our lumber. Surely to god somebody can make economical furniture right here out of it.


Perhaps if the government didn't prescribe a thousand and one regulations regarding the zoning of the facility, and equipment and safety and noise and certifications, and environmental violations etc., and one could hire a lumber helper for $5/hour, and didn't have a 50/50 chance of getting stuck with a dud employee but can't fire them due to some labor law that leaves them open to being sued.

As a result, you have huge corporations that have enough capital for economies of scale on product, and enough profit to hire lawyers and accountants and regulatory experts to navigate government bureaucracy. Then you have guys working in their basements all alone, unable/unwilling to attempt scaling their company due to the above hurdles. What's you end up with is an economy with no/dying small business, and a growing number of people competing for a shrinking number of soul-destroying jobs at Mega Wood International, commuting for 5-10 hours/week. In a saner world there could be 5 of them working for Joe next door in his big woodshed garage out back making high quality Canadian products. 

Same goes for oil refineries, or any other industry... It doesn't cost 10s of billions to actually make a refinery...It costs 10 of billions to make a refinery _in Canada._


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

tygrus said:


> We don't export live cattle dude. They are slaughtered and trimmed right here. Thats an extra level of processing.
> 
> What about our lumber. Surely to god somebody can make economical furniture right here out of it.


We don't export oil sand either...we extract the heavy oil first and in many cases upgrade it again to synthetic oil.

If you check my post you might find I didn't mention live cattle, but since you brought it up you might find that we export close to 1 million head live cattle to the USA alone.

As for lumber into furniture you might find we are in the top 5 furniture exporters in the world as well as one of the largest value added lumber exporters but still we need to export logs to customers as well.

So, ya, we do a good job already of managing our resources in Canada in spite of what you may have read in the Huffington Post. It is and will be what we do best.


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## Eclectic12 (Oct 20, 2010)

tygrus said:


> We don't export live cattle dude.


Odd ... the Canadian Meat Council and Agriculture Canada seems to think live Canadian cattle are going to various US states.

http://www.cmc-cvc.com/en/about-us/industry-statistics/beef-cattle


Cheers


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