# What is the real reason they do not want us to eat meat ?



## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

One of the agendas of the world economic forum is to stop the unwashed who are not able to think for themselves is to prevent us from eating meat. What is their real agenda ? Is it to increase our carb intake to make us fat to reduce the population ?


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Nah, they want to make everyone diabetic...


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't know but everyone would be healthier if they ate less meat. This was proven 100 years ago. In Denmark during WW1 food rationing included NO meat. The death rate fell to the lowest ever recorded in a European country. This experiment covered 8 million people for 18 months. Statisticians calculated that 6000 lives were saved. Heart disease, diabetes, hardening of the arteries and other lifesyle diseases fell by 30% to 40% and were still falling when the experiment ended. England's experience in WW1 and 2 were similar. Look up the work of Dr Hindhede for more details.

In the US the healthiest, longest living set of people are Seventh Day Adventists who have very strict dietary laws, and live from 4 to 9 years longer than other people. According to official census figures.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I don't know but everyone would be healthier if they ate less meat. This was proven 100 years ago. In Denmark during WW1 food rationing included NO meat. The death rate fell to the lowest ever recorded in a European country. This experiment covered 8 million people for 18 months. Statisticians calculated that 6000 lives were saved. Heart disease, diabetes, hardening of the arteries and other lifesyle diseases fell by 30% to 40% and were still falling when the experiment ended. England's experience in WW1 and 2 were similar. Look up the work of Dr Hindhede for more details.
> 
> In the US the healthiest, longest living set of people are Seventh Day Adventists who have very strict dietary laws, and live from 4 to 9 years longer than other people. According to official census figures.


To be honest, if I had to live miserable life of dieting, I would rather die faster than have it extend my life.
Food is one of the few, if not only, daily, reliable pleasures in life!


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

damian13ster said:


> To be honest, if I had to live miserable life of dieting, I would rather die faster than have it extend my life.
> Food is one of the few, if not only, daily, reliable pleasures in life!


Who doesn't like sweet juicy peaches, tangy strawberries, cool refreshing watermelon, and all the other fresh fruits that delight our summers? What about a salad for lunch on a hot day? Eating less meat does not mean starvation or deprivation, it means enjoying fresh fruit and vegetable foods that are often neglected.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

There has to be a moderation in everything. But salad for lunch? - you are welcome to enjoy it but big no for me! Unless it involved chicken or salmon. Everyone has their preferences. Everyone has their free will and free choice.

Don't want politicians micromanaging our lives.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

afulldeck said:


> Nah, they want to make everyone diabetic...


Meat and fish have zero GI Index , bread, pasta, rice, watermelons, bananas have the biggest GI Index and not recommended for pre-diabetics or diabetics. 
If I don’t eat meat, fish, seafood everyday, I will be hungry 😋
The country that almost not consumes meat, India, has very low life expectancy, 117 place in the World.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Majority of Eastern European , Middle Eastern and Caucasian cousin combine meats and vegetables.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> To be honest, if I had to live miserable life of dieting, I would rather die faster than have it extend my life.
> Food is one of the few, if not only, daily, reliable pleasures in life!


Very true!


> What about a salad for lunch on a hot day?


 I like salads, especially when I'm making them from vegetables and herbs I grow on our backyard.... Salads go excellent with juicy steak, kebab, fresh caught fish, roasted lamb or duck legs etc


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

It's a myth to think that eating no meat means eating salads only. Also, it's a myth to think that eating no meat means you'll be hungry. I can totally hit the gym to build muscle while on a vegan diet.

Reducing the consumption of processed food, red meat, processed meat while eating healthy will decrease your risk of heart disease, obesity, diabetes and some cancers.

Healthy vegans tend to eat more fibre and more antioxidants. Healthy vegans tend to eat more diversified, which means more fruits, more vegetables, more seeds and nuts, more cereals, more greens, more legumes, more healthy oils, more herbs and spices, etc.

The lifestyle of healthy vegans increase their life expectancy.

Eating less meat means we don't need to harvest fields in order to feed animal with plants... in order to feed us with their meat. It would make much more sense for those fields to be used to feed us directly.

Carnivores and omnivores make sense in the nature because the populations ends up being balanced by nature. But with humans being at the top of the chain and coming with all that non-natural industrialisation, feeding animals with plants so that those animals feed us with their meat is a supply chain that will collapse at some point as our population continues to increase. It is not sustainable.

That being said, you don't have to be vegan or vegetarian. You mainly have to decrease meat consumption, processed food, while increasing a healthy diversification of aliments.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

And to anyone saying that "his condition" doesn't allow him to reduce his consumption of meat and processed food...

While my dietician spouse was pregnant, she had a diabetic pregnancy and she didn't want to eat the 10 most common allergens (eggs, milk, mustard, peanuts, crustaceans & molluscs, fish, sesame seeds, soy, sulfites, tree nuts [almonds, cashews, etc], wheat & triticale [gluten]).

So we ate none of those 10 allergens, while eating low carbs (highly controlled intake), while eating vegan and no processed food. And healthy. And nourishing.


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## Thal81 (Sep 5, 2017)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> I don't know but everyone would be healthier if they ate less meat. This was proven 100 years ago. In Denmark during WW1 food rationing included NO meat. The death rate fell to the lowest ever recorded in a European country. This experiment covered 8 million people for 18 months. Statisticians calculated that 6000 lives were saved. Heart disease, diabetes, hardening of the arteries and other lifesyle diseases fell by 30% to 40% and were still falling when the experiment ended.


I'm sure this was not related to the fact that fridges in homes were not a thing yet, and meats were cured in salt for storage (among other methods like smoking)... That's a lot of salt.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

:) lonewolf said:


> One of the agendas of the world economic forum is to stop the unwashed who are not able to think for themselves is to prevent us from eating meat. What is their real agenda ? Is it to increase our carb intake to make us fat to reduce the population ?


 ... no one is preventing the "washed" ones with hidden internal dirt to continue eating meat or whatever crxps that they fancy. And as if they're going to "abide" by the world economic's forum 'agenda', LMFAO. Troll 'r Us.


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## kellanfaraday (Jul 2, 2021)

I don't understand it either, since people pay a lot for meat which means more tax money for the government. But veganism isn't bad either, so I don't think it's a hidden agenda. Maybe meat is just harder to clean and process? Besides, today's meat is from cows raised in factories and fed antibiotics. Meat was healthier back in the day.

I disagree with the "everybody would be healthier if no one ate meat" argument since meat is needed to have a balanced diet.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

I grew up around Seventh Day Adventists and found that while they do eat vegan diets and live longer on balance, they don't necessarily live healthier lives.

From my observation they replace meat with a desire for sweets and baked goods. They also eat a lot of prepared vegan food from companies like Loma Linda or Worthingtons. Those companies are owned by their church.

I think their extended longevity is more to do with they don't drink alcohol, smoke, party late into the night, or have as much stress, because they believe they know how the world ends, so everything else is just noise.

Drinking, smoking, and stress probably kill more people than eating meat.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Eating less meat is better for the environment, mainly because forests are cut down to make cropland to feed animals. If we eat the food directly instead of feeding it to an animal and then eating the animal, it's way more efficient and you need far less cropland. Bonus is that it's also healthier, which will cut down on health care costs for governments.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Increasing red meat consumption linked with higher risk of premature death


For immediate release: June 12, 2019 Boston, MA – People who increased their daily servings of red meat over an eight-year period were more likely to die during the subsequent eight years compared …




www.hsph.harvard.edu







> The association of increases in red meat consumption with increased relative risk of premature mortality was consistent across participants irrespective of age, physical activity level, dietary quality, smoking status, or alcohol consumption, according to the researchers.





Meat and Animal Feed





> Livestock is the world’s largest user of land resources, with pasture and arable land dedicated to the production of feed representing almost 80% of the total agricultural land. One-third of global arable land is used to grow feed, while 26% of the Earth’s ice-free terrestrial surface is used for grazing.


And I was raised on a farm where we fed our cows and pigs to produce milk and meat. And now I don't drink milk nor eat meat.

Also, me and my spouse are reducing waste. We have a 5 gallon trash in the kitchen and it's the only trash that we have. I get the trash out once every month. And we are trying to reduce it even more.


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## Mechanic (Oct 29, 2013)

Wife made a nice salad last night and was pretty good. I cooked the steaks to go with it. All good.


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## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

Lonewolf, I think there _could_ be deceptive motives for discouraging meat/ animal products, most of my research into this field actually shows that almost all studies funded by private interests (dairy associations, egg boards, cattleman association etc etc) are generally the only studies the show benefits to eating those foods. They also are the studies that get all the publicity and touted in the mainstream media, all the while not disclosing the conflicts of interest or the questionable methods behind the studies.

I understand that there is good reason to question the motives here, but most of my findings show that the funding of these studies is actually trying to encourage consumption of these animal products and confuse the science around them.

They are basically doing to nutrition what big pharma is doing to drugs/ vaccines and med school education/ corruption of science, but with 1/1000th the budget, and 1/1000th the level of malice/ evil intent.

Carbs are not bad, processed carbs and foods are.

There is no shortage of people out there sent home by doctors who tell them they are on the verge of a heart attack/ stroke and theres nothing the medical field can do for them. If they are lucky/ well researched enough to go out on their own and find a whole foods plant based diet they often turn their health around.

Lots of people say "who cares about living 4-9 years longer I'd rather eat meat", but what that stat fails to show is that they are much healthier for all those years and able to enjoy life to its fullest. Compared to being riddled with health issues and taking prescription drugs that often cause more harm than good.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

On the other hand, we aren't built like cows who chew their cud and have multiple stomachs to digest all the fiber they eat.

Vegans often have digestive issues, with flatulence and inflammation of the intestines and bodies as ailments.

They also tend to crave more sweets and sugar is detrimental to their overall health.

It isn't as simple as just eating more veggies. I think a balanced diet with moderation and small portions is a good choice.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

sags said:


> On the other hand, we aren't built like cows who chew their cud and have multiple stomachs to digest all the fiber they eat.
> 
> Vegans often have digestive issues, with flatulence and inflammation of the intestines and bodies as ailments.
> 
> ...


Eating healthy is not simple no matter what your diet is.

Bloating can occur during the transition to a vegan diet or may be due to a badly balanced diet. A healthy vegan diet actually reduces bloating.

Inflammation is mainly caused by red meat. It is also caused by refined carbs, French fries, soda and margarine. All aliments that I don't eat. Anti-inflammation foods are tomatoes, olive oil, greens, nuts and fruits. All aliments that I eat.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Good. That is your personal choice.
Mine is to eat different than you do.
And that is an informed choice.

You can feel superior or healthier all you want, just don't try to take away my choice.
Too few people trying to force too many and tell them how to live through sin taxes, etc.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Good. That is your personal choice.
> Mine is to eat different than you do.
> And that is an informed choice.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is trying to take away your choice. Meat and especially dairy are subsidized by the government, even.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We could easily switch to a totally vegan diet, but would want to replace the meat portion with a good alternative.

Thus far, I don't really trust the vegetarian meats that are offered, to be all that healthy to eat.

I have had veggie burgers and remember Linketts (hot dogs) from the past, and found them to be very tasty......but I don't know what chemicals they contain.

I am not sure where freshly made veggie meats are available in deli like form. Maybe they are somewhere ?


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

These are the ones I remember and reading the ingredients........I don't know how healthy they are with 7% salt and a bunch of chemical additives.

It also isn't very tempting they are in a can claiming a long shelf life.






Loma Linda - Plant-Based - Linketts (20 oz.) (Pack of 12) - Kosher, 1.25 Pound (Pack of 12): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food


Loma Linda - Plant-Based - Linketts (20 oz.) (Pack of 12) - Kosher, 1.25 Pound (Pack of 12): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food



www.amazon.com


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Veggie meats (meat alternatives) are generally pretty processed and expensive as well. I don't eat meat most of the time, but I don't eat veggie meat either most of the time. I just have meals that don't feature a meat-like item. Something like a 3-bean chili with a side salad. Or a chickpea and pasta salad. In the winter, a vegetable lasagna. Things like that.

If you ever go to Burger King and want a vegetarian option, their Impossible Whopper is actually delicious and pretty indistinguishable from meat to me. I also like the Beyond Burger at A&W but my husband says that one tastes fake to him, so YMMV.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Well to be honest......the hamburger patties at most fast food places isn't the best tasting either. If it wasn't for the condiments I probably wouldn't eat any of it.

Order sir..........yes, give me 2 Big Macs with no meat please. The last time I went to Subway I ordered a veggie sub and didn't even miss the meat actually.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Spudd said:


> I don't think anyone is trying to take away your choice. Meat and especially dairy are subsidized by the government, even.


There is plenty of sin taxes already


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

If you want a steak go ahead and have a steak. Have some steamed vegetables with it, or a Caesar salad. Lay off the bread rolls, French fries and baked potato if you are trying to be healthy and keep your weight down. You don't have to be a fanatic to eat healthier. Anything that puts more fresh fruit and veg on your plate is all to the good.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

sags said:


> On the other hand, we aren't built like cows who chew their cud and have multiple stomachs to digest all the fiber they eat.


If you asked an expert biologist or anatomist to analyse the human body he would tell you that it obviously should be classed with the fruit and vegetable eating animals. The teeth, mouth, stomach, digestive tract etc. are quite different from meat eating animals like dogs and cats, or grain and grass eating animals like cows and horses. More in line with the primates who live almost entirely on fruits and vegetable matter.
Among other things, we must get our Vitamin C from our food, most animals make their own in the liver, only a few animals do not, and they are all fruit eaters.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

The most important food to increase red blood cells and hemoglobin 
red meat, such as beef.
organ meat, such as kidney and liver


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

sags said:


> Well to be honest......the hamburger patties at most fast food places isn't the best tasting either. If it wasn't for the condiments I probably wouldn't eat any of it.


Yeah. I'm not opposed to hamburgers, but I am frequently disappointed with them. Even at bars/restaurants, which often seem very lazy about cooking burgers and rely on toppings and sauces.

A good burger (ground beef made nicely) should have lots of flavour. If you were to take the ground beef mix and just grill that *with nothing added to it*, it should taste great. Not too often that I find that when eating out. I occasionally cook my own.

Most restaurants are severe disappointments. Usually staffed by unskilled young people, cooking poor quality ingredients and then dressing it up with mayo and other sauces. You can't fool me with that and it's a big reason I hardly ever go out to eat.

The 'new spin' in the last few years, with restaurants, is dressing up every plate to make it look extremely fancy so that it looks like what people watch on the "Food" TV channel. You can't fool me with that either. If you take bad quality food, you can try to make it look like artwork if you want, but it's still junk.

Drizzle some mayo or hot sauce on it, still junk.

Canadian and American restaurants are huge disappointments, generally. Hardly worth going. All image, all sauces, no substance.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Canadian and American restaurants are huge disappointments, generally. Hardly worth going. All image, all sauces, no substance.


I agree with such statement, there are a very few exceptions, but those are very expensive high-end restaurants! Generally, we prefer European ones..
I'm making very good food by myself (different cuisines) , better than in any restaurants


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> I agree with such statement, there are a very few exceptions, but those are very expensive high-end restaurants! Generally, we prefer European ones..
> I'm making very good food by myself (different cuisines) , better than in any restaurants


I mainly cook my own too. I agree.

There are some restaurants I like. Many of the Asian restaurants (Japanese, Korean) are fantastic. There is a Malaysian place here that is one of my favourite and I happily pay 3x what other meals cost, because it's so good. Many good middle eastern / arab restaurants, Greek, etc.

I would love to find somewhere I can get a nice meat curry (goat, chicken or beef) in the style of Caribbean or African curry. I think you can find this easily in Toronto but not where I am.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

james4beach said:


> I mainly cook my own too. I agree.
> 
> There are some restaurants I like. Many of the Asian restaurants (Japanese, Korean) are fantastic. There is a Malaysian place here that is one of my favourite and I happily pay 3x what other meals cost, because it's so good. Many good middle eastern / arab restaurants, Greek, etc.
> 
> I would love to find somewhere I can get a nice meat curry (goat, chicken or beef) in the style of Caribbean or African curry. I think you can find this easily in Toronto but not where I am.


We mostly going to restaurants in order to socialize with our friends, to have some romantic and t try new things....
Just this week we've been with our friends in 2 probably most high end restaurants in Toronto : George and Harbour 60 (just yesterday)... Very yummy and quality food.... Steaks and seafood at Harbour 60 are amazing, George reminded me expensive Spanish tapas restaurant, but still IMHO (and all my relatives opinion) my cooking is better 


P.S. The funny part that in both George and Harbour 60 we had "outdoor dining" . However, to tell the truth , it's indoor dining with all windows opened  ... they call it "patio". Looks like that those super-expensive restaurant easily "proving" (with cash) that they offer just "outdoor dining" ... LOL


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> A good burger (ground beef made nicely) should have lots of flavour. If you were to take the ground beef mix and just grill that *with nothing added to it*, it should taste great. Not too often that I find that when eating out. I occasionally cook my own.


Now we're talking, nothing like a good homemade burger on the BBQ. I cooked up some for our friends at our pool party this past weekend, topped mine with blue cheese .... super yummy.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> A good burger (ground beef made nicely) should have lots of flavour. If you were to take the ground beef mix and just grill that *with nothing added to it*, it should taste great. Not too often that I find that when eating out. I occasionally cook my own.


I hate fast food burgers, and usually get something different that I can't make at home at restaurants. 

However the burgers we make at home on special occasions have a ton of things in it, and we love it. Mix of ground beef and pork, minced garlic, onion flakes (we use dried to it soaks up some of the juices), salt, pepper, some panko breadcrumbs, maybe an egg to bind, then we stuff them with a caramelized onion, sautéed mushroom and provolone cheese. It's far from just meat (which we do when lazy) but it is delicious. Served on homebaked baked brioche bun, juicy tomatoes and lettuce, and some sort of homemade aioli. I have to say have lots of good toppings and flavours makes it pretty good. We haven't found a restaurant that is better than ours yet.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> However the burgers we make at home on special occasions have a ton of things in it, and we love it.


Yes, burgers are one thing I mix up ingredients with. One key point I find is to not over do the amounts of each so they add to the taste and not over power it.



Plugging Along said:


> We haven't found a restaurant that is better than ours yet.


Almost impossible to find nowadays as most places use frozen pucks. Even if they use fresh beef there doesn't seem to be anything added. Last time I had a restaurant burger as good as homemade was over 20 years ago and was a 45min drive out of the city. Sadly she retired and sold the place.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

We recently started trying some of the stuffed hamburgers and chicken breasts prepared at a local deli.

We didn't know what we were missing. We use Costco burgers for regular hamburgers but the deli stuffed hamburgers are treated like steak now.

We buy other things at the deli like cabbage rolls and shepherd pie, but some things just can't be bought..........like homemade spaghetti, chili, and lasagna.

People who live in an area with lots of deli choices can buy authentic dishes that are "prepared" fresh and that is a far better choice than processed fast food.

It costs more for sure, which is why so many low income folks have health problems. They just don't have the money to upgrade their food choices.

McDonalds is still the choice for too many low income people.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Yes, burgers are one thing I mix up ingredients with. One key point I find is to not over do the amounts of each so they add to the taste and not over power it.
> 
> 
> Almost impossible to find nowadays as most places use frozen pucks. Even if they use fresh beef there doesn't seem to be anything added. Last time I had a restaurant burger as good as homemade was over 20 years ago and was a 45min drive out of the city. Sadly she retired and sold the place.


There's actually a couple of good places in my city that make decent burgers, but I don't out for burgers much. One starts with a good blend of beef with the right fat ratio, and then they do some amazing stuffings. Another, is a higher end restaurant that specializes in the burger of the month. Both are really good, but I hate paying $20 for a burger. Ironically, I have found some great burgers in the US, I don't know why, but I have found more burger joints that are decent and a better price.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

How can you tell is someone is vegan?
Don't worry, they'll tell you.

So boring.

Anyway I like to grind my burger meat...chuck with a bit of sirloin. Not too much though, I like that sizzling black crust that pale people say causes cancer. Sauteed onions with a thin slice of old cheddar to protect the bun from excess moisture. No tomato and usually no lettuce.

I'm hungry. (My vegan friend never has an appetite)
Thanks for a good thread Lonewolf!


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Plugging Along said:


> Ironically, I have found some great burgers in the US, I don't know why, but I have found more burger joints that are decent and a better price.


When I lived in Los Angeles, I thought In-N-Out Burgers were pretty good.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Mukhang pera said:


> When I lived in Los Angeles, I thought In-N-Out Burgers were pretty good.


In US I found fuddruckers to be by far the best. They give you a really good patty (you get to choose a size, meat type, and how it is cooked) with a bun, and there is a stand where you have countless toppings and sauces to do with as you please. Wish they had that in Canada!

Here the best quality meat is probably A&W from fast foods, but bit too greasy for my liking


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

Plugging Along said:


> Ironically, I have found some great burgers in the US, I don't know why, but I have found more burger joints that are decent and a better price.


Totally agree, found some really good burger places scattered all over the US. Overall the US has some excellent restaurants providing great food and reasonable prices though sometimes their portion sizes are far to big.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Has anyone here tried FatBurger in Canada? I wonder if it's any good.

I'd be willing to give it a spin and report back



Mukhang pera said:


> When I lived in Los Angeles, I thought In-N-Out Burgers were pretty good.


Any favourite places in Canada?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

james4beach said:


> Has anyone here tried FatBurger in Canada? I wonder if it's any good.


Fat burger is ok, been there a few times, nothing special though.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

james4beach said:


> Has anyone here tried FatBurger in Canada? I wonder if it's any good.
> 
> I'd be willing to give it a spin and report back
> 
> ...


Yes, when I lived in Ontario, and was a frequent traveller to "cottage country" and points north, I always liked Webers Burgers on Highway 11, north of Orillia. It was still there a few years ago. It was not open all year in the olden days. Not sure about now.

You mention FatBurger, are there any on the west coast? I don't recall seeing them, but maybe not paying attention.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

Mukhang pera said:


> You mention FatBurger, are there any on the west coast? I don't recall seeing them, but maybe not paying attention.


I think there are some in Vancouver and Calgary


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## :) lonewolf (Feb 9, 2020)

I have seen on the internet video's of magnets sticking to some people after being vaccinated. The magnet does not stick to all the vaccinated. A friend of mine who I trust says a magnet sticks to them. Now there are some video's showing packaged meat with magnets sticking to the packaged meat. I am not saying true or false regarding the magnets sticking to some of the freshly purchased packaged meat though with the tyrants with their one world government it would not surprise me.


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## Plugging Along (Jan 3, 2011)

james4beach said:


> Has anyone here tried FatBurger in Canada? I wonder if it's any good.
> 
> I'd be willing to give it a spin and report back
> 
> ...


It okay. not a bad burger, i find them a little on greasy vs juicy.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Is Weber's the place where they had to build a pedestrian overpass over Highway 11 because of all the people dashing across the road for a burger ?

There is another place if people take the "back route" up north.......I think it is Highway 81 that runs through Orangeville and finally ends up at the 400 at Barrie.

They have an old streetcar diner. Kind of cool and it was busy.

The best pizza I ever had was on the Michigan side of the Mackinaw Bridge. It was unreal. The town doesn't alllow traffic down the main drag so it is there.

Upstairs in the place they showed a movie about how they built that bridge. It was quite a feat of engineering at the time.

I think the name of the town on the US side is St. Ignace......but not sure and too lazy to look it up.

The best hotdog.......the old Montreal Forum. An open faced bun and weiner........but the relish was something special.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

I just made today amazing Ukrainian borsch ... so, hell with burgers 😁


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

sags said:


> Is Weber's the place where they had to build a pedestrian overpass over Highway 11 because of all the people dashing across the road for a burger ?


Yup, that's the place. The bridge is said to be a piece of the CN Tower’s old Skywalk and the only privately owned pedestrian bridge over an Ontario highway.


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## peterk (May 16, 2010)

I remember being so intrigued and excited to try this Webers place when I was like 20 years old and heading north. I had never heard of a big lineup for a burger shack before lol. Very disappointed, though.

Pete's drivein in Calgary - famous - also disappointing.

Usually these kind of places pull off excellent french fries and milkshakes, because they are fresh, but the mass-produced main product of burgers, hotdogs, pizza, etc. are low-cost ingredients when compared to what gets served at a mid-range sitdown restaurant. Remember it is still fast food...just with quirkiness, fame, and nostalgia attached.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

The fame places like Webers start to enjoy I think often lowers the product quality and the attributes of the places that become famous. I just looked up Webers on Wiki. It reports that it opened in 1963 and, as of 2009, Webers was said to sell approximately 8,000 hamburgers on a typically busy Friday. Can that kind of mass production be that good?

I left Ontario in 1976 and, although I drove by Webers again on later visits to Ontario, I did not stop in. Always looked too busy and the locals travelling with me were of the view that it had lost the attributes of the early Webers. I recall going there as a kid in the 60s when the founding Weber was at the grill. The place was much quieter and he was known for attention to each customer. He would ask how you liked your burger prepared, what you wanted on it, with it, etc. Not easy to give individual attention to 8,000 people in a day. 

I suspect that's true of a lot of now huge fast food places. I never went to the original Macdonald's when it opened in 1940. It was probably a different (and better) product then. In high school, we used to go often to the Harvey's on Avenue Road. Burgers and hot dogs were grilled over charcoal as you watched and then placed on a counter with stainless bowls of condiments and you could specify which, and how much, you wanted. The fries were cut fresh and did not come from frozen product. Not sure it's done that way now. I have not been in a Harvey's since the 70s.

I mentioned In-N-Out Burgers in LA in an earlier post. It was long famous when I moved there, but it seemed to have managed to retain a lot of what got it there, as near as I could tell.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

People just like to be a part of something.........so they visit a "famous" nostalgic place hoping to connect a bit to the past.

I filled our home with retro stuff, mostly bought at Goodwill, Salvation Army or Kijijji.

I have been entering my vintage baseball and hockey cards into spreadsheet software for weeks while listening to 60's on 6 on Sirius XM on the Alexa.

I like the station because they play old music from the 60s, but also because they have live DJ's.........like the olden days of listening to my transistor radio.

People call in, send in emails and texts, tell stories of their past, request special songs.......just like the good old days of Wolfman Jack and others.

Nostalgia........the current condition of the world has many of us longing for the simpler and better times from our past.

I think that carries over to the old restaurants, diners, and other places we remember fondly. Younger people won't understand.......but boomers will.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

All I can say is "enjoy them while they last". And I don't have a favourite hamburger joint since hamburgers aren't exactly my favourite food.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I do like a good burger, but I find myself now in Plugging Along's camp. You cannot buy a better burger than you can make at home. One thing about making at home as you have complete control over ingredients - use what you prefer -and control over cooking time and method. We like best to grill over an alder wood fire.


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## james4beach (Nov 15, 2012)

I just had some chicken wings last night, tried a new place for take-out. I think they did a better job than I can do at home... those wings really made my day.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Sooo much disinformation in this thread- just makes me shake my head. Meat is NOT "needed to have a balanced diet". I'm vegan and I don't "crave sweets and sugar". India's life expectancy is not related to a vegetarian diet- it's more disease, poorer hygiene and less available medical care, etc. I could go on about the farcical beliefs people have regarding vegans and vegetarians, but the original post kind of says it all. Nobody is forcing an "agenda" on anyone, and the last thing dropping animal products from your diet does is to make you fat. Veganism has been proven to be the #1 best way to lose weight quickly and healthily, unlike Keto which is a nutritional joke. And a vegan/veggie diet CONTROLS inflammation, it does not cause it. Some of this stuff sounds like it came from an Andrew Dice Clay routine in the 80's.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Vegans is a sect!


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

indexxx said:


> Sooo much disinformation in this thread- just makes me shake my head. Meat is NOT "needed to have a balanced diet". I'm vegan and I don't "crave sweets and sugar". India's life expectancy is not related to a vegetarian diet- it's more disease, poorer hygiene and less available medical care, etc. I could go on about the farcical beliefs people have regarding vegans and vegetarians, but the original post kind of says it all. Nobody is forcing an "agenda" on anyone, and the last thing dropping animal products from your diet does is to make you fat. Veganism has been proven to be the #1 best way to lose weight quickly and healthily, unlike Keto which is a nutritional joke. And a vegan/veggie diet CONTROLS inflammation, it does not cause it. Some of this stuff sounds like it came from an Andrew Dice Clay routine in the 80's.


Just want to add that to those making these types of statements, I would love to see the studies backing them up. As someone who has studied health and nutrition for over 30 years, I like to see evidence-based science, not hearsay and hyperbole. I am in no way looking to be snarky (something I detest)- I am genuinely interested. Dismissive and divisive statements like "veganism is a sect" do nothing to further the universal quest for information.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

“India's life expectancy is not related to a vegetarian diet- it's more disease, poorer hygiene and less available medical care, etc. “ - wow?! Really?! India on 145 place in the World by life expectancy, but Cuba I’d on 45th place , do you really thing that Cuba is rich country with “rich” hygiene?!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

People who eat vegan and vegetarian diets have a lower risk of heart disease and a higher risk of stroke, a major study suggests. They had 10 fewer cases of heart disease and three more strokes per 1,000 people compared with the meat-eaters.Sep. 5, 2019


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

down to nutrition. “Being a vegan can be aging,” says Vargas. “I see 27-year-old vegans who don't have good elasticity. There's no snap-back to their skin tone because they're not getting enough protein.”May 12, 2013

Going vegan side effects sometimes include anemia, disruptions in hormone production, vitamin B12 deficiencies, and depression from a lack of omega-3 fatty acids.Apr. 24, 2020

Veganism I’d definitely a cult!


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> down to nutrition. “Being a vegan can be aging,” says Vargas. “I see 27-year-old vegans who don't have good elasticity. There's no snap-back to their skin tone because they're not getting enough protein.”May 12, 2013
> 
> Going vegan side effects sometimes include anemia, disruptions in hormone production, vitamin B12 deficiencies, and depression from a lack of omega-3 fatty acids.Apr. 24, 2020
> 
> Veganism I’d definitely a cult!


Who is "Vargas" and what study is this from? I find "sometimes" to be pretty meaningless- is that one in five? Three out of 100,000? How many of those would have a deficiency of something regardless of their diet because they are not nutritionally educated? And for the record, the whole protein myth is the biggest misconception of them all- vegans get plenty of protein. Literally EVERY food contains protein, unless you're living on Twinkies and Coke. Last summer I was tracking my fitness on an app, which included entering everything I ate- I did this for over six months and my average daily protein intake was between 15 and 20%, depending on the day- and this was without "trying" to get "enough" protein. Just eating my regular diet of fruit, nuts and seeds, oats, grains, legumes, and vegetables.

And I'd like to add that I've never found it funny or appropriate to insult other people based on their choice to live a compassionate, sustainable, and healthy lifestyle. It's more a form of bullying than anything- calling people part of a "cult" is insulting. A cult follows a leader and does not think for themselves- most vegans I know tend to do their own, unbiased research that leads them to their informed choices. Gotta sleep now- have a good night.


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

indexxx said:


> Sooo much disinformation in this thread- just makes me shake my head. Meat is NOT "needed to have a balanced diet". I'm vegan and I don't "crave sweets and sugar". India's life expectancy is not related to a vegetarian diet- it's more disease, poorer hygiene and less available medical care, etc. I could go on about the farcical beliefs people have regarding vegans and vegetarians, but the original post kind of says it all. Nobody is forcing an "agenda" on anyone, and the last thing dropping animal products from your diet does is to make you fat. Veganism has been proven to be the #1 best way to lose weight quickly and healthily, unlike Keto which is a nutritional joke. And a vegan/veggie diet CONTROLS inflammation, it does not cause it. Some of this stuff sounds like it came from an Andrew Dice Clay routine in the 80's.



Pffft, the thread was so much more fun when we were giving out good burger join recommendations!

Peters drive-in moved in to Edmonton. Tons of lines, but I found it very dissapointing.
Not really a burger, but place I tried last week and liked very much was basBurrito.

Now don't get me wrong, I believe balanced diet in terms of nutrition is the way to go.
Whether it contains meat or not (I think good nutrition can be achieved in both ways).

I simply see food as daily, reliable source of pleasure so make informed decision to simply eat what I want - and that includes a lot of meat. So be it.
Once my blood parameters, weight, or overall well-being will be negatively affected then I will change into more balanced died.
A person can make an informed decision to eat meat. 
A person can make an informed decision not to eat meat.
Simple as that - respect each other, and each other's choices.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^


> And I'd like to add that I've never found it funny or appropriate to insult other people based on their choice to live a compassionate, sustainable, and healthy lifestyle*. It's more a form of bullying than anything- calling people part of a "cult" is insulting*. A cult follows a leader and does not think for themselves- most vegans I know tend to do their own, unbiased research that leads them to their informed choices. Gotta sleep now- have a good night.


 ...aka trolls (and this is a polite term used) here. Am I surprised? NO.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

damian13ster said:


> Pffft, the thread was so much more fun when we were giving out good burger join recommendations!


Sure, have you tried this burger recipe? Vegan portobello mushroom burgers are yummy!









Spicy Miso Portobello Mushroom Burger (Vegan)


This Japanese-style, portobello mushroom burger is full of umami flavor! It's lathered w/ Asian "Guacamole", topped w/ crunchy Cucumber-Carrot Slaw!




www.feastingathome.com


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

MrBlackhill said:


> Sure, have you tried this burger recipe? Vegan portobello mushroom burgers are yummy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yeah. Love Portobello mushrooms.
This specific marinade I haven't used.
Going to add 3/4lb good beef patty to the burger, subtract the avocado, and try this!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

A tasty burger, greasy fries and a Coke.............now that is living the good life.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

^ Not every day.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

indexxx said:


> Just want to add that to those making these types of statements, I would love to see the studies backing them up. As someone who has studied health and nutrition for over 30 years, I like to see evidence-based science, not hearsay and hyperbole. I am in no way looking to be snarky (something I detest)- I am genuinely interested. Dismissive and divisive statements like "veganism is a sect" do nothing to further the universal quest for information.


How about this for a start. https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/jul/hindhede.pdf Dr. Hindhede's report in the Journal of the American Medical Association, February 7 1920, on his experience with food rationing in WW1 when Denmark changed to a mainly vegetarian diet. The experiment lasted a year and affected 3 million people, quite a large sample size you must agree. During this period the death rate fell by 34%. Statisticians estimated 6,300 lives were saved. The same thing happened in Great Britain during food rationing in WW1 and WW2.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

The cult of veganism is riddled with inconsistencies


Do vegans think that lions, hyenas — even feral cats — and other carnivores also should give up eating meat?




thewest.com.au


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

> choice to live a compassionate, sustainable, and healthy lifestyle.


 Fake news!


> calling people part of a "cult" is insulting


 see below! Nothing insulting to call "cult" a cult. Vegans remind me a lot Jehovah's Witnesses .

How about this for start?!
Read "*The Vegetarian Myth, by the Canadian author Lierre Keith. *She was a vegan for over 20 years, believing this diet would honour animals, feed the hungry, and save the planet*. Now she believes veganism “is one part cult, one part eating disorder”, and that it “destroyed her body”."









Joanna Blythman: Veganism really is 'one part cult, one part eating disorder'


It’s Veganuary once more, the annual prod to stop eating animal foods, and yet again I won’t be taking up the invitation. Vegans make up about…




www.heraldscotland.com




*

_It’s Veganuary once more, the annual prod to stop eating animal foods, and yet again I won’t be taking up the invitation. Vegans make up about 1% of the UK population. That figure has remained almost static over the years, belying their vociferousness. *The reality is that there are far more ex-vegans, or “recovering” vegans in these isles than practising ones.*

This year, an interesting fissure in the vegan movement emerged: vegans and “ultra-vegans”. The latter term was coined by the environmental campaigner Chris Packham.

“The people I call ultra-vegans just want to stop all meat consumption overnight. But that would be no good for meat farmers. It would be no good for our landscapes, where low-intensity, good-quality animal husbandry and livestock farming are actually good for biodiversity.”

So the language around Veganuary is softening somewhat. An open letter, organised by the Veganuary Association and signed by celebs, such as Alan Cumming and Paul McCartney, states: “We cannot tackle climate change while we farm and eat animals on an industrial scale”.

This is a shift from more heated rhetoric in previous years that condemned all livestock production indiscriminately, as if crofter-reared Shetland lamb was no different from fast food beef from a dusty US feedlot.

So if I get into discussion with someone contemplating becoming vegan, I’ll be asking them to mull over these thoughts before adopting this extreme approach.

I’d first see if they have read *The Vegetarian Myth, by the Canadian author Lierre Keith. She was a vegan for over 20 years, believing this diet would honour animals, feed the hungry, and save the planet. Now she believes veganism “is one part cult, one part eating disorder”, and that it “destroyed her body”.

She recounts how her fervent ideological determination blinded her to early warning signs, such as missed periods. She describes how she has been left with irreversible spine disease, gut problems, pain and more.

She includes depression and anxiety in this tally, which thankfully alleviated substantially once she jumped off the vegan wagon.

“You don’t have to try this for yourself. You’re allowed to learn from my mistakes”, she urges would-be vegan recruits.

Over 100 startling pages Keith details the nutritional reasons why sustained veganism is no formula for human **health*. Even those who refuse to read it would be advised to skim it, if only to learn what daily supplements they will need to prevent their bodies becoming gravely deficient in macro- and micro-nutrients that are essential for good health.

I’d also ask provisional vegans to consider what food our land is best at producing. Scotland is world famous not for soya, corn, legumes, and other vegan staples, but for our cattle breeds, such as Aberdeen Angus for meat, and Ayrshire for milk.

Why? They reflect our agricultural strengths, within natural biological and climactic limits. A vegan diet asks you to cold-shoulder the foods we farm most effortlessly, which seems daft.

To those attracted to veganism because it is supposedly “death-free”, I’d say think again.

All agriculture involves bloody animal death, it’s just that when it comes to plant food, the casualties of the combine harvester and sprayer are smaller: voles, worms, field mice, birds, bees, the list goes on.

Carry out a wildlife audit of permanent grassland with grazing animals, and fields for crops, you’ll find that the former always tops the latter. And from where, without the biological life introduced into soil by livestock manures, would the fertility needed to grow solely plant foods come? Fertilisers made from fossil fuels, is the answer.

My parting shot would be food quality. Acquaint yourself with the ingredients list of Oatly plain “Oatgurt”, for instance, priced at £5.50 a kilo. The first ingredient is cheap water, then we drop down to oats at 12%, followed by potato starch, rapeseed oil, modified potato starch, oat fibre, potato protein, malic and lactic acids, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, salt, synthetic vitamins, and potassium iodide.

Thanks but no thanks. I’ll stick with real yoghurt made from the milk of real cows – or goats, or sheep, or buffalo.

Forget Veganuary, I’m trying out Regenuary: basing my meals on the foods that are produced here, using regenerative farming methods that improve the environment, not trash it.

That’s the truly progressive food goal for thinking omnivores._



> The same thing happened in Great Britain during food rationing in WW1 and WW2.


And very opposite thing happened in USSR and other Eastern European countries during food rationing in WW2.



> Just eating my regular diet of fruit, nuts and seeds, oats, grains, legumes, and vegetables.


 So you don't eat not only meat , fish, seafood..., but also dairy and eggs?!!! What a torture! What a life! Sounds like extreme masochism


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> Fake news!
> see below! Nothing insulting to call "cult" a cult. Vegans remind me a lot Jehovah's Witnesses .
> 
> How about this for start?!
> ...


You're clearly a troll, buddy. I have nothing more to say to you besides that I wish you well.


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## KaeJS (Sep 28, 2010)

@indexxx Losing weight is about calories. Not the type of food you eat. Energy in vs Energy out.

Keto is not a nutritional joke. It's that most people don't pay attention to nutrition when they do keto, they only pay attention to fats and proteins and usually eat the wrong types of foods.

Most important reason to not be vegan is that animal products contain all amino acids, are usually great sources of saturated fats and oils which are difficult to come by in most plant based diets.

Humans can digest plants and animals, so we should be eating both.

The best diet is a diet that consists of both and eliminating either one is not a wise decision.

Most people who live in North America get more than enough nutrients to not even worry about their diet. In fact, it's more important to worry about the sugars you intake than the nutrients you receive. The sugars, high amounts of soy, and all the other additives are the real problem.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_Prior to the release of her action thriller "Salt" in 2010, actress *Angelina Jolie* revealed that she'd been *vegan* "for a long time" but claimed that *the diet nearly ended her life*, saying, "I found I was not getting enough nutrition," _

Veganism is a joke, the dangerous one!
_The study, which analyzed a representative sample of 11,000 U.S. participants 17 and older, found that 84 *percent* of people who have adopted *vegetarianism* or *veganism* *at some point in their lives have gone back to eating meat*. A bit less than one in five *vegans* and *vegetarians* maintain their diet. LOL_

The most dangerous that vegans are torturing their kids making them to eat only plants.!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> How about this for a start. https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/jul/hindhede.pdf Dr. Hindhede's report in the Journal of the American Medical Association, February 7 1920, on his experience with food rationing in WW1 when Denmark changed to a mainly vegetarian diet. The experiment lasted a year and affected 3 million people, quite a large sample size you must agree. During this period the death rate fell by 34%. Statisticians estimated 6,300 lives were saved. The same thing happened in Great Britain during food rationing in WW1 and WW2.


Do you know who are vegans at all?! Don;t mix them with vegetarians 
Regarding " food rationing in WW1 and WW2"... do you truly believe that they replaced meat, fish and dairy with almond milk, exotic fruits and berries and chemically produced pseudo-proteins supplements?!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

During the war they were giving soldiers rations of corned beef in a can. I still like to have a can of Hereford corned beef around for a sandwich.

During the Great Time of Pandemic Food Storage we stocked up on a bunch of cans.......just in case.

It must still be popular because now they got corned beef with onions, corned beef with hot peppers.......

Corned beef and cabbage is a party favorite.......well, maybe not.

But we can't find sliced corn beef anywhere......like the deli type. They just say it isn't around anymore. What happened to it ?

A corned beef on dark rye bread with hot mustard..........um um um.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> A corned beef on dark rye bread with hot mustard..........um um um.


So, you are definitely not vegan LOL.

Actually the best dark rye bread you can find in GTA and maybe in all North America, is made and sold in Yummy Marker on Dufferin St. It's called Borodisnky








Borodinsky bread - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





It goes excellent with everything and very healthy. I buy every time 7-8 loafs and just put them in freezer....when it's unfrozen - it's like fresh


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> Do you know who are vegans at all?! Don;t mix them with vegetarians
> Regarding " food rationing in WW1 and WW2"... do you truly believe that they replaced meat, fish and dairy with almond milk, exotic fruits and berries and chemically produced pseudo-proteins supplements?!


Where do you get this stuff? I never mentioned the word Vegan nor almond milk, exotic fruits and berries, or chemicals.
If you read Dr Hindhede's report, the people of Denmark at that period of time (1917 - 1918) were thrown on their own resources because of the British Navy's blockade. No more imported food in other words.
They lived mainly on black (rye) bread, barley porridge, the sort of vegetables and fruits that will grow in a northern climate like potatoes, cabbages, carrots, onions, etc. plus limited amounts of milk eggs and wheat bread. Meat never completely disappeared but the farmers kept most of it for themselves, and you had to be rich to afford meat regularly. The distilleries were shut down completely and breweries limited to half the grain they used prewar. So drinking was much reduced.
That is the only specific information I offered, and that was mainly out of historical interest. I wished to show that vegetarianism is not new, it has been tried and tested in this interesting experiment, supervised by medical experts of the day, and involving 3 million people over a year to 18 months.
I don't know you and couldn't care less what you eat or what you think of almond milk. I sincerely believe that in this country we live too high and consume too much meat, sugar, junk food, and fat and would be better off if we ate more fresh fruit and vegetables. I have tried it myself and have gone for months eating very small amounts of meat, fish, eggs and the like, while living mainly on vegetables fruit and salads. Never went totally vegan or vegetarian since I am not a fanatic.


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

Speaking of rye bread. Dr Hindhede gave the recipe for the rye bread the Danes lived on during the rationing period. He started off by saying the millers were used to discarding the coarse part of the rye or bran, and using as little as 70% of the grain. He had them put in all of it, bran and all, plus 20% barley flour and 20% wheat bran. This gave a light tasty loaf, much nicer than the heavy sour German rye bread. It also meant they got twice as much bread out of the same amount of rye grain. He believed the bran, especially wheat bran, was very valuable nutritionally and could take the place of meat if it was combined with milk.
I wouldn't mind trying such bread myself. I think it would be good eating as well as being healthier than regular white bread.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

The best kolbasa/salami in GTA is made by Newmarket Russian/Jewish producer Barillo








Barilo's Fine Sausages LTD | Ontario Finest Meat Products


We are Barilo’s Fine Sausages LTD. We are a meat processing company that manufactures and distributes European-style deli meats throughout Canada.



barilosfinesausages.com





You can buy in in Starsky, Yummy Market and other European deli stores. They also export to FL, NY, MA

Our favorites








Cooked Salamis | Barilo's Fine Sausages LTD


Cooked salamis from Barilo’s Fine Sausages LTD. We are a meat processing company that manufactures and distributes European-style deli meats throughout Canada.



barilosfinesausages.com












Dry fermented salamis | Barilo's Fine Sausages LTD


Dry fermented salamis from Barilo’s Fine Sausages LTD. We manufacture and distribute European-style deli meats throughout Canada.



barilosfinesausages.com


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Never went totally vegan or vegetarian since I am not a fanatic.


That's what I'm talking about! Vegans are fanatic (vegetarian a bit less). I agree that in North America especially , people should eat less junk food and processed meat and drink less pop. Diet should be balanced, this why together with meat, fish, dairy , we also eat a lot of vegetables and herbs that I also grow up on out backyard


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Speaking of rye bread. Dr Hindhede gave the recipe for the rye bread the Danes lived on during the rationing period. He started off by saying the millers were used to discarding the coarse part of the rye or bran, and using as little as 70% of the grain. He had them put in all of it, bran and all, plus 20% barley flour and 20% wheat bran. This gave a light tasty loaf, much nicer than the heavy sour German rye bread. It also meant they got twice as much bread out of the same amount of rye grain. He believed the bran, especially wheat bran, was very valuable nutritionally and could take the place of meat if it was combined with milk.
> I wouldn't mind trying such bread myself. I think it would be good eating as well as being healthier than regular white bread.


If you try Borodisnky rye bread (I gave link above), I'll see what I'm talking about!


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

My wife is German/Polish and her family emigrated to Canada and established a farm in Saskatchewan. She is a true farmer's daughter.

She used to bake breads and lots of other ethnic food but doesn't much anymore with just the two of us.

After she made our first dinner together....it was love at first bite.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

Gibor.......the only thing missing from your bread, hot mustard, and some good corned beef and cheese.........is a great dill pickle on the side.

I prefer the Strubbs pickles, but my wife..........likes sliced dills with less garlic. 

I went through the drive-thu at McD's for a coffee and noticed they are now selling deep fried pickles.

Oh the humanity !


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Almond milk is pretty hard on the environment, more so than cows milk. Of course this means nothing if lactate intolerant.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Gibor.......the only thing missing from your bread, hot mustard, and some good corned beef and cheese.........is a great dill pickle on the side.
> 
> I prefer the Strubbs pickles, but my wife..........likes sliced dills with less garlic.
> 
> ...


The best pickles is making my mom , cucumbers are from her garden . A also makes them good, but my mom is the champion .
The best mustard is again in Eastern European stores , it's called "Teschina gorchica" (Mother-in-Law mustard)  Super hot!


https://ru.russianfoodusa.com/images/P/mustard.jpg


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Eder said:


> Almond milk is pretty hard on the environment, more so than cows milk. Of course this means nothing if lactate intolerant.


I use oat milk for that reason.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> How about this for a start. https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/jul/hindhede.pdf Dr. Hindhede's report in the Journal of the American Medical Association, February 7 1920, on his experience with food rationing in WW1 when Denmark changed to a mainly vegetarian diet. The experiment lasted a year and affected 3 million people, quite a large sample size you must agree. During this period the death rate fell by 34%. Statisticians estimated 6,300 lives were saved. The same thing happened in Great Britain during food rationing in WW1 and WW2.


Yes, great study, I read that about 25 or 30 years ago. Thank you for posting it.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

KaeJS said:


> @indexxx Losing weight is about calories. Not the type of food you eat. Energy in vs Energy out.
> 
> Keto is not a nutritional joke. It's that most people don't pay attention to nutrition when they do keto, they only pay attention to fats and proteins and usually eat the wrong types of foods.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's simple math. I lost 50 lbs in six months last year after going vegan, and dropped my triglycerides by 39%, my LDL by 24%, and my total cholesterol by 25%. The thing is- fat is 9 calories per gram, whereas carbohydrate and protein are only 4. So a small amount of fat will give you much less volume and bulk (and pretty much zero nutrition) as opposed to the equivalent caloric level of plant foods. You can eat a massive bowl of steamed vegetables with chickpeas and curry or orange-ginger sauce, crusty bread with avocado, salt and pepper, and your grain of choice like quinoa or rice with some seeds and nuts tossed in, and be totally stuffed (and get a massive dose of antioxidants and Omage-3) instead of whatever saturated fat and cholesterol-laden meal that is half the size that you'd have on keto.

My concerns with keto diets are several- first is that it is a diet designed for a specific medical purpose (epilepsy), not as a solid long-term nutritional plan. They also result in a lot of water loss as opposed to fat loss, as carbohydrate molecules carry water- starve your body of carbs, water follows. They may also result in loss of lean muscle mass. The excess cholesterol and saturated fat are of course a huge cardiovascular risk. People on keto may be at risk for many nutritional deficiencies, as they cut out sources of vitamins, flavanoids, phytonutrients, and other antioxidants abundant in fruits and vegetables. Next is that the body and specifically the brain uses carbs for fuel- it is a strain to make the necessary glucose out of fat and protein in gluconeogenesis (changing fat and protein into glucose to fuel your metabolism- the body runs on glucose) instead of just eating carbohydrate- essentially, it is a starvation survival mechanism that you are forcing your metabolism into. And lastly, there is a large amount of research into the role of the gut biome in overall health, and abundant fruits, vegetables, and other sources of carbohydrate (meaning, plant foods) are essential to creating and supporting a positive gut microflora; specially if one is eating a lot of animal products on keto (especially eggs and fish), it vastly increases TMAO, which is an extremely large contributor to major cardiovascular disease.

Re: amino acids, saturated fats etc- plant foods contain all essential amino acids, just in varying amounts. If you eat enough calories, you get everything you need as long as you're not trying to live only on iceberg lettuce or something. As far as saturated fat- it is incredibly unhealthy to consume. Oils are easy to come by- nuts, seeds, grains, legumes, some vegetables.

Quoting your post: "Humans can digest plants and animals, so we should be eating both.

The best diet is a diet that consists of both and eliminating either one is not a wise decision."

-I respectfully disagree with both of these statements, because what is this based on? "Should" is kind of meaningless IMHO- just because we can, does not mean it's optimal or even all that beneficial. If you compare our anatomy with that of a true carnivore, we're nothing alike. I feel that saying what the best diet is without doing the research is more opinion based on habit and culture; why, exactly, isn't it a wise decision? I mean, sure, our ancestors on the savannah hunted, but it's a pretty safe assumption that they were in survival mode 100% of the time and had to take whatever they could get, just like any other animal. And they had a lifespan of what, maybe 30-35 years at most? Does not instil me with much confidence I have to say. We now live in a time where we can do the nutritional research and make the choices that best serve our health and that of our surroundings (and fellow beings). Interesting side note- a recent study showed that early humans were eating much more starch, and at a far earlier time, than previously thought. And the simple reason that everyone thinks we were such huge hunters is that in caves, middens, and other repositories of artifacts, bones and teeth last eons, whereas plant matter completely disintegrates. So you could have say a small band of people living at a good location for a couple of hundred years, and of course over that time, eating every day, there will be what seems like a large accumulation of animal remains- however adding up the tens of thousands of meals over their time at that spot, it's really not that much. Anyway, just some "food" for thought.


----------



## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

indexxx said:


> Yes, it's simple math. I lost 50 lbs in six months last year after going vegan, and dropped my triglycerides by 39%, my LDL by 24%, and my total cholesterol by 25%.


Good for you on losing weight, of course assuming you were over weight before the loss. Question though ... what were you eating before the 50# loss?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

indexxx said:


> Yes, great study, I read that about 25 or 30 years ago. Thank you for posting it.


If you look at Denmark location, you will see that it’s surrounded by sea... only lazy dudes won’t be fishing esp when there is problems with food. Unfortunately vegans cannot consume fish and other sea food


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Good for you on losing weight, of course assuming you were over weight before the loss. Question though ... what were you eating before the 50# loss?


Thanks! Yes, I was 228 lbs. Standard Western diet including meat, eggs, fish.


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## sags (May 15, 2010)

gibor365 said:


> If you look at Denmark location, you will see that it’s surrounded by sea... only lazy dudes won’t be fishing esp when there is problems with food. Unfortunately vegans cannot consume fish and other sea food


Good point.....why didn't they fish for food ? Same with UK which is an island.


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

indexxx said:


> Thanks! Yes, I was 228 lbs. Standard Western diet including meat, eggs, fish.


Just curious as to why the vegan switch instead of just reducing your western diet intake?


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

sags said:


> Good point.....why didn't they fish for food ? Same with UK which is an island.


Obviously they fished, but in reports there were looking only for distributed food. btw, except fish , you can find plenty of other seafood like shrimps, clams, mussels etc.
Also, during those times, a lot of people had chickens, ducks, cows, goose at their properties.... this how my grandparents survived WWII.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Just curious as to why the vegan switch instead of just reducing your western diet intake?


Don't eat carbs (or significantly reduce), exercise frequently, eat a bit less ...and you gonna loose weight without fanaticism and putting your health in dangerous conditions. 
Anyway,_ In a survey of around 11,000 Americans, the organization found that 84 percent of *vegetarians* and *vegans* return to eating meat, says the Huffington Post. Most lapse within a year, while nearly a third don't last more than three months. _


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## Rusty O'Toole (Feb 1, 2012)

gibor365 said:


> If you look at Denmark location, you will see that it’s surrounded by sea... only lazy dudes won’t be fishing esp when there is problems with food. Unfortunately vegans cannot consume fish and other sea food


Did I mention that in WW1 the Danes were cut off from the sea by the British Navy? This went for fishing boats as well as cargo shipping. The Brits were likewise cut off by the German submarine menace which kept their fishing boats bottled up. The result was, little or no commercial fishing during the war but very large catches after the war as fish stocks had built up to record levels.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Rusty O'Toole said:


> Did I mention that in WW1 the Danes were cut off from the sea by the British Navy? This went for fishing boats as well as cargo shipping. The Brits were likewise cut off by the German submarine menace which kept their fishing boats bottled up. The result was, little or no commercial fishing during the war but very large catches after the war as fish stocks had built up to record levels.


I’m not talking about commercial fishing 😁. I’m talking that everyone can go and catch fish and seafood by himself 😁


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Just curious as to why the vegan switch instead of just reducing your western diet intake?


Around November of 2019, I was treating a 72 year old patient and in the course of taking his history, he mentioned he'd been vegan for over 30 years, and that he skied, windsurfed, ran, cycled, and went to the gym. This guy was one of the healthiest people I'd ever met (he was in for an athletic injury), and I started thinking about how much healthier I was when I was vegan before and whether I needed to return to it. I did a deep dive into tons of the latest research proving the long-term benefits of a plant-based diet, and I started thinking about the health issues, diseases, and other far-reaching implications of eating meat (like all the extra water, land, and energy needed to produce it) and supporting factory farming and systematic abuse of animals for profit, as well as looking at some of the long-term, high-performing vegans like Paul McCartney (over 45 years), Venus Williams, Patrik Baboumian (one of the world's strongest men), Colin Kaepernick, Carl Lewis, etc. There have been excellent documentaries like The Game Changers and Forks Over Knives coming out in the past few years, so lots of info around. I'd also gotten results showing that my cholesterol was extremely high- I have genetic high cholesterol. Then that Xmas, I had my best friend over for dinner, who's been vegan for over 40 years. I made us a fantastic meal, and that day I decided to make the switch. So for me, reducing my lipid profile and improving my overall health, losing weight, cutting down my environmental impact, and not supporting industries based on cruelty. It also tends to open up a much larger variety of foods for many people, which is always fun to explore.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Fanatics! What a stupidity! Diary and eggs are also cruelty to animals?!
Stats show that 84_ percent of *vegetarians* and *vegans* return to eating meat, says the Huffington Post. Most lapse within a year, while nearly a third don't last more than three months._
Let us know when you quit this madness!


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Most of the vegans I know (5) did so due to various digestive problems that seemed to improve by cutting out a lot of food stuff. I wouldn't call any of them healthy or athletic but all of them weigh less than me and are paler than me.

Otoh I eat meat 2x / day...I'm 65, mountain bike, sail across oceans, ski, drink excessively and many other healthy habits my vegan friends don't normally partake in. Most of my carnivorous friends do the same. (sample size)

I think cherry picking a few vegan athletes is like cherry picking a few pot addicted intellectuals ... there's always the outliers.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

indexxx said:


> looking at some of the long-term, high-performing vegans like Paul McCartney (over 45 years), Venus Williams, Patrik Baboumian (one of the world's strongest men), Colin Kaepernick, Carl Lewis, etc.


You forgot to mention the most "famous" vegan Adolph Hitler 

*Celebrities Who Quit Vegan Diets*

Bill Clinton. The 42nd president of the United States, Bill Clinton, had switched to veganism after an emergency heart surgery in 2010. ...
Samuel L. Jackson. ...
Anne Hathaway. ...
Channing Tatum. ...
Waka Flocka Flame. ...
Zooey Deschanel. ...
Liam Hemsworth and Chris Hemsworth. ...
Carrie Underwood.
Angelina Joye
*Liam Hemsworth said he gave up a vegan diet after he dealt with a health complication.

Anne Hathaway said she ditched her vegan diet partially because it didn't make her feel healthy or strong.

Miley Cyrus said she gave up veganism after seven years because her "brain wasn't functioning properly."*

I feel sorry for kids who are growing up in vegan families.This is just *abuse*!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Today I went to Cambridge Lake and caught 2+ kg of fish. Big one for us, small one for our Siberian cats


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Even I know thats a bottle of vodka and not a couple of fish.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eder said:


> Even I know thats a bottle of vodka and not a couple of fish.


All fish was eaten 

btw, I've heard that vegans feed their cats and dogs with vegan food! This is super-abuse!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Here original fish (before it was eaten )









Yummy!!!!!

End of July booked cottage in Halliburton area.... hope to catch a lot of bass


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> Fanatics! What a stupidity! Diary and eggs are also cruelty to animals?!
> Stats show that 84_ percent of *vegetarians* and *vegans* return to eating meat, says the Huffington Post. Most lapse within a year, while nearly a third don't last more than three months._
> Let us know when you quit this madness!


What's that statistic worth? That's like saying _"In an article published by the Hustle in 2019, they reported that 63% of memberships go completely unused, and 82% of gym members go to the gym less than once per week. Moreover, 22% completely stop going six months into their membership, and 31% say they never would’ve paid had they known how little they’d use it." _*Therefore you shouldn't go to the gym.*

Your statistic is just telling us that most people don't know what they're doing when they try veganism so they fail. But that doesn't mean they veganism is bad.



gibor365 said:


> You forgot to mention the most "famous" vegan Adolph Hitler
> 
> *Celebrities Who Quit Vegan Diets*
> 
> ...


Really? So your argument is about actors and singers who decided to quit veganism therefore veganism is bad? You base your argument on celebrities who are just in the showbiz, follow trends, don't know what they're doing and are in for the drama?

What about this?



> The position of the American Dietetic Association is that appropriately planned vegan diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Eder said:


> Most of the vegans I know (5) did so due to various digestive problems that seemed to improve by cutting out a lot of food stuff. I wouldn't call any of them healthy or athletic but all of them weigh less than me and are paler than me.
> 
> Otoh I eat meat 2x / day...I'm 65, mountain bike, sail across oceans, ski, drink excessively and many other healthy habits my vegan friends don't normally partake in. Most of my carnivorous friends do the same. (sample size)
> 
> I think cherry picking a few vegan athletes is like cherry picking a few pot addicted intellectuals ... there's always the outliers.


Thank you for your input. Just want to point out that drinking excessively is not a healthy habit. I did not 'cherry pick' anyone- simply mentioned a few famous people that came to mind- I could easily have mentioned many others, just that these are well-known people who excel in their respective challenging fields; some here have tried (unsuccessfully I might add) to make the "point" that vegans are somehow weaker, or unhealthy, or, as you yourself mention- "paler". Not sure how that last one is supposed to even be possible- that would be laughed out of any room full of medical professionals, since melanin is what controls your skin colour and that is genetic. I happen to look like I have a tan year-round.

And to someone else's point- not sure who the F told him that vegans feed their cats and dogs vegan meals- it's this kind of moronic hearsay bullcrap and absolutely staggering ignorance on display in his posts that I'm talking about when I use the word troll. Has it ever happened? Sure, I bet it has- just like a few low-IQ Trump supporters injected bleach to cure Covid (this actually happened). BTW, dogs can be vegan actually, but not cats- as obligate carnivores, cats require taurine. And cherry-picking is exactly what's going on by bringing up people who have quit being vegan for whatever reason- it's not any kind of evidence for anything, it's simply a failed attempt to negate the tens of millions that stay with it for life and thrive and avoid most diseases of excess- I could sit here and list dozens and dozens of famous people who love this way of eating to counter the ones that give it up- but neither of those lists do anything to further the sharing of knowledge and quest for solid scientific information. Which is really what I'd like to do here, but despite my attempts to be civil and kind, it seems that personal insults, mockery, and poor anecdotes are all anyone has to counter the evidence for plant-based diets. Bullying tactics like these (which will not work here BTW) are always a result of a perceived threat, insecurity, or ignorance, and are only used to inflate the bully's ego by putting other's beliefs and discussions down. Which is why I do not converse with bullies, trolls, and those who attempt to insult me- there is nothing there to have a reasonable, respectful, and thoughtful discourse with.

And yes, I hate to break it to our under-a-bridge-living poster, but eggs and dairy farming ARE abusive for many, many reasons that I'm not interested in typing out, and are worse on some level because the producing animal goes through it long-term without rest. Do some objective research (we both know you won't) before you dig yourself deeper into your pit of ignorance. I will give you a piece of advice though before I sign off- stay out of the sun, you'll turn into stone.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

Eder said:


> Most of the vegans I know (5) did so due to various digestive problems that seemed to improve by cutting out a lot of food stuff. I wouldn't call any of them healthy or athletic but all of them weigh less than me and are paler than me.
> 
> Otoh I eat meat 2x / day...I'm 65, mountain bike, sail across oceans, ski, drink excessively and many other healthy habits my vegan friends don't normally partake in. Most of my carnivorous friends do the same. (sample size)
> 
> I think cherry picking a few vegan athletes is like cherry picking a few pot addicted intellectuals ... there's always the outliers.


My sense of these things is that one type of diet is not necessarily superior for everyone, provided you limit junk food, sugar, etc. 

I think we can all point to examples of people we know or have known who fared well on divers fare. My parents (and their parents before them) lived to almost age 100 in their own home and very fit right to the end. They ate a lot of meat and drank 2 glasses of wine every evening. Some would say they should have been dead at 40. Had they been vegan, would they have made it to 150? I doubt it. Would they have done worse had they gone vegan at age 15? Maybe no difference.

I follow a lot of advice of Dr. Sten Ekberg, but probably because he affirms my own way of thinking in many things. I am sure many dismiss him as a crackpot and to follow anything he says will lead to a slow and painful death.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> What's that statistic worth? That's like saying _"In an article published by the Hustle in 2019, they reported that 63% of memberships go completely unused, and 82% of gym members go to the gym less than once per week. Moreover, 22% completely stop going six months into their membership, and 31% say they never would’ve paid had they known how little they’d use it." _*Therefore you shouldn't go to the gym.*
> 
> Your statistic is just telling us that most people don't know what they're doing when they try veganism so they fail. But that doesn't mean they veganism is bad.
> 
> ...


I posted those names after vegan indexxx posted celebrities who are vegans 😂...

Veganism is bad, Read "*The Vegetarian Myth, by the Canadian author Lierre Keith. *She was a vegan for over 20 years, believing this diet would honour animals, feed the hungry, and save the planet*. Now she believes veganism “is one part cult, one part eating disorder”, and that it “destroyed her body”."*


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> I posted those names after vegan indexxx posted celebrities who are vegans 😂...


Exception made of Paul McCartney, he posted names of athletes.



gibor365 said:


> Lierre Keith


Who is she? A writer? A feminist? An activist? An environmentalist?

What's that book? An extremely controversial book?

What is it worth compared to scientific studies?

You totally skipped my quotes of the American Dietetic Association, of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC) study and people who are PhD RD.

And I can find much more.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Exception made of Paul McCartney, he posted names of athletes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is former vegan whose life was almost destroyed because of veganism, so she wrote book about it and was subject of physical violence by veganism cult member!
I have no doubt that there is a strong cultists movement to promote veganism! If you believe in this BS, just do it!


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> She is former vegan whose life was almost destroyed because of veganism, so she wrote book about it and was subject of physical violence by veganism cult member!


She is one person. That's it. And please give me more detail on how veganism destroyed her life. I'm very curious about that.

It's pretty easy to claim that something has destroyed our life and then write about it.

This link below is much more informative.






10 Important Plant Diet (Vegan) Research Studies of 2018


Gauged by the “noise” on social media and trends like the ketogenic and carnivore diets, some might wonder if the science backing…




kahn642.medium.com


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> She is one person. That's it. And please give me more detail on how veganism destroyed her life. I'm very curious about that.
> 
> It's pretty easy to claim that something has destroyed our life and then write about it.
> 
> ...


Read her book and you'll figure it out 

Earlier this month, Cyrus—who *stopped* eating animal products in 2014—revealed on the “Joe Rogan Experience” podcast that she now consumes fish* after experiencing neurological issue*s

Angelina Jolie "I joke that a big juicy steak is my beauty secret. But seriously,I love red meat.* I was a vegan for a long time, and it nearly killed me. I found I was not getting enough nutrition*. " 

Again, I feel sorry for vegan's kids ... this is children abuse and authorities should make some actions!









Why being vegan isn’t as environmentally friendly as you might think


Go vegan, they said. Save the world, they said. But is the plant-based diet as good for the environment as we’ve been told? Emma Henderson finds out how it could be more sustainable




www.independent.co.uk


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Why some people are saying such dramatic things like "it nearly killed me" while lots of other people are living the best of their lives on a vegan diet?

Because they are doing it wrong. Simple as that.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Why some people are saying such dramatic things like "it nearly killed me" while lots of other people are living the best of their lives on a vegan diet?
> 
> Because they are doing it wrong. Simple as that.


They live “the best if their live” to the dome point or just lying (and in real life are not really vegans)😁


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

MrBlackhill said:


> Because they are doing it wrong. Simple as that.


Yup, many do it wrong.

Whatever diet people are on a large number don't eat properly. I would think vegans/vegetarians probably monitor their diets better than those that eat anything. Just check the climbing obesity rates, bet it'll be hard to find any actual vegans or vegetarians on that list.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

cainvest said:


> Yup, many do it wrong.
> 
> Whatever diet people are on a large number don't eat properly. I would think vegans/vegetarians probably monitor their diets better than those that eat anything. Just check the climbing obesity rates, bet it'll be hard to find any actual vegans or vegetarians on that list.


It all depends not on the fact you're vegan or not, but on how much you eat and what you eat! It also depends on your exercise. 

Just check the obesity rates by country (I believe numbers more than propaganda )





List of countries by obesity rate - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





The biggest number of vegans is in UK . *United Kingdom*_. Helped by Veganuary and expansive media coverage, veganism popularity has exploded in the UK. It's now the third year in a row (it shared first place with Australia in 2018) that the UK ranks as the most popular country for veganism in the world_. 
However, *in obesity rate UK ranking is number 36 *(if you remove Pacific islands with couple of thousands people, UK will be in top 10 or 15).
2nd top country for "vegans" is ... Israel (I'm embarrassed now _ *Israel* has the highest percentage of vegans globally_ 
*Israel obesity rate ranking is number 45*


Not, let's see the
*Worst Countries for Vegans*

 *Japan. one of the worst countries for vegans. ... ranked 185 *
*Italy. ... ranked 107*
*Philippines. ranked 168!*
*So, you are completely wrong with obesity rates!*


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> It all depends not on the fact you're vegan or not, but on how much you eat and what you eat! It also depends on your exercise.
> 
> Just check the obesity rates by country (I believe numbers more than propaganda )
> 
> ...


You try to draw your own non-scientific conclusions from what you believe to be a correlation but your methodology is meaningless.

Look at some studies taken on the PubMed Central | National Center for Biotechnology Information | U.S. National Library of Medicine | National Institutes of Health









A plant-based diet for overweight and obesity prevention and treatment


The goal of this paper is to review the evidence related to the effect of plant-based dietary patterns on obesity and weight loss, including both observational and intervention trials. Literature from plant-based diets (PBDs) epidemiological and clinical ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> You try to draw your own non-scientific conclusions from what you believe to be a correlation but your methodology is meaningless.
> 
> Look at some studies taken on the PubMed Central | National Center for Biotechnology Information | U.S. National Library of Medicine | National Institutes of Health
> 
> ...


Studies is one thing, real life is completely different


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

gibor365 said:


> So, you are completely wrong with obesity rates!


How am i wrong? I said "Just check the climbing obesity rates, bet it'll be hard to find any actual vegans or vegetarians on that list."

Did you poll the obese to see how many were vegan/vegetarian? 
No need to reply, I'll just answer that for you ... No.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

Other than the benefits for health, environment and animal well-being, eating less animal (or no animal) would reduce the risk of epidemics like the one we're currently living.









The Causal Relationship between Eating Animals and Viral Epidemics


For decades it has been known that infectious agents including pathogenic protozoans, bacteria, and viruses, adapted to a particular animal host, can mutate to gain the ability to infect another host, and the mechanisms involved have been studied in great detail. Although an infectious agent in...




www.karger.com


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## MrsPartridge (May 15, 2016)

MrBlackhill said:


> Other than the benefits for health, environment and animal well-being, eating less animal (or no animal) would reduce the risk of epidemics like the one we're currently living.


Yes, we'd avoid diseases like Swine Flu, Mad Cow etc. but now with lab grown meat, we should be able to safely (and soon cheaply) produce enough meat for people.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

cainvest said:


> How am i wrong? I said "Just check the climbing obesity rates, bet it'll be hard to find any actual vegans or vegetarians on that list."
> 
> Did you poll the obese to see how many were vegan/vegetarian?
> No need to reply, I'll just answer that for you ... No.



I know more fat vegans and vegetarians than fat carnivores. Research has shown that one ought to eat:

single whole ingredient items (meat, eggs, fish) and if you must single ingredient - plants. 

but not multiple ingredient items : fake meat, process wheat, noodles, sugar, etc


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

afulldeck said:


> I know more fat vegans and vegetarians than fat carnivores. Research has shown that one ought to eat:
> 
> single whole ingredient items (meat, eggs, fish) and if you must single ingredient - plants.
> 
> but not multiple ingredient items : fake meat, process wheat, noodles, sugar, etc


What do you mean, "if you must single ingredient - plants"? Are you implying that plants are optional?


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

afulldeck said:


> I know more fat vegans and vegetarians than fat carnivores.


Sure, could be the case for you. I only know a few skinny vegetarains and I don't know any pure carnivores. But yes, pretty much any diet type can lead to them being overweight because they don't control their food choices or intake levels.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Why some people are saying such dramatic things like "it nearly killed me" while lots of other people are living the best of their lives on a vegan diet?
> 
> Because they are doing it wrong. Simple as that.


So, it’s extremely dangerous that vegan can die “because they doing it wrong”!
And celebrities like Angelina Jolie, Cirus and others most likely had private dietician


----------



## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

gibor365 said:


> So, it’s extremely dangerous that vegan can die “because they doing it wrong”!
> And celebrities like Angelina Jolie, Cirus and others most likely had private dietician


Diet and lifestyle are the number one causes of chronic disease (heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc) and death. IE- standard western diet largely based around animal products and more recently processed foods, is the number one killer. But your trying to say a vegan diet is dangerous?

Healthcare and big Pharma are the number 3 killer BTW, in America.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Spudd said:


> What do you mean, "if you must single ingredient - plants"? Are you implying that plants are optional?


I am. There are essential fats, essential proteins, there are no essential carbohydrates. You can leave them (carbs) out or let them be a flavoring for your meat and fat. They are not required for healthy living. They may however, cause other sorts of problems but mainly unconscious over eating in search for nutritionally dense food or satiety (fat). The Japanese diet for 'sumo' wrestlers for example, it a diet very high in carbohydrates (approx 80%) and very low in fat (approx 7%). The fact that above 50% of the north american population has pre-diabetes should be a wake up call for all. 

You might be the luck one who can consume lots of carbohydrates over your life time, but don't bet on it. You insulin response might just be getting tired


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

afulldeck said:


> I am. There are essential fats, essential proteins, there are no essential carbohydrates. You can leave them (carbs) out or let them be a flavoring for your meat and fat. They are not required for healthy living. They may however, cause other sorts of problems but mainly unconscious over eating in search for nutritionally dense food or satiety (fat). The Japanese diet for 'sumo' wrestlers for example, it a diet very high in carbohydrates (approx 80%) and very low in fat (approx 7%). The fact that above 50% of the north american population has pre-diabetes should be a wake up call for all.
> 
> You might be the luck one who can consume lots of carbohydrates over your life time, but don't bet on it. You insulin response might just be getting tired


Do you think fibre is not essential? I don't.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

Spudd said:


> Do you think fibre is not essential? I don't.


And vitamins, flavanoids, phytonutrients, and other antioxidants plus that fact that plants are what feeds our healthy gut microbiome- one of the most important new areas of health research affecting everything from mental health to heart disease. Plants are 100% ESSENTIAL for long-term health. Animal products are not. Damage from "carbs" are from processed, refined carbs like bread, pasta, sugar, etc, not from whole plant foods.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

indexxx said:


> And vitamins, flavanoids, phytonutrients, and other antioxidants plus that fact that plants are what feeds our healthy gut microbiome- one of the most important new areas of health research affecting everything from mental health to heart disease. Plants are 100% ESSENTIAL for long-term health. Animal products are not. Damage from "carbs" are from processed, refined carbs like bread, pasta, sugar, etc, not from whole plant foods.


While I have nothing against plant food. They are not 100% essential for long-term health.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

_*Meat* is a rich source of several essential nutrients such as protein, vitamin B12 and iron, while *dairy* products are a rich source of protein and calcium. Vegans, who exclude all *meat and dairy* products from their diet, need to obtain these nutrients from other sources. 
*Seafood* includes vital nutrients needed for health and wellness at all ages, including omega-3s, iron, B and D vitamins, and protein. *Fish* and *shellfish* supply the nutrients, vitamins and omega 3s *essential* for strong bones, brain development, and healthy heart and immune system. 








5 Reasons Why Seafood Should Be On Your Family Table


Why should seafood be on your family table? There are so many reasons, one being health. Try adding seafood to your family's table now!




www.seafoodnutrition.org





*Cheese* is a great source of calcium, fat, and protein. It also contains high amounts of vitamins A and B-12, along with zinc, phosphorus, and riboflavin. *Cheese* made from the milk of 100 percent grass-fed animals is the highest in nutrients and also contains omega-3 fatty acids and vitamin K-2. _

Eggs are one of the few foods considered to be a complete high-quality protein source, because they contain *all 9 essential amino acids*. 'Essential' means that the body cannot produce these amino acids on its own, which is why we need to include them in our diet.
Protein: Essential for building and repairing m...
Selenium: Works with vitamin E to act as an an...
Vitamin A: Helps maintain healthy skin and eye ...
Vitamin E: An antioxidant that plays a role in m...


_*Oat milk* is not suitable for people with gluten intolerance or with celiac disease. Unflavored *oat milk* has the highest amount of calories and carbohydrates of plant-based *milk* varieties. Although the sugar is natural, *oat milk* is very high in carbohydrates. _


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## cainvest (May 1, 2013)

afulldeck said:


> There are essential fats, essential proteins, there are no essential carbohydrates. You can leave them (carbs) out or let them be a flavoring for your meat and fat. They are not required for healthy living.


Carbs are an energy source, so with out them your body will try to harvest fat and protein to compensate which can lead to serious problems. The issue with many peoples diets today is they over eat carbs. I would put eating carbs as required for healthy living.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> _*Meat* is a rich source of several essential nutrients such as protein, vitamin B12 and iron, while *dairy* products are a rich source of protein and calcium. Vegans, who exclude all *meat and dairy* products from their diet, need to obtain these nutrients from other sources.
> *Seafood* includes vital nutrients needed for health and wellness at all ages, including omega-3s, iron, B and D vitamins, and protein. *Fish* and *shellfish* supply the nutrients, vitamins and omega 3s *essential* for strong bones, brain development, and healthy heart and immune system.
> 
> 
> ...


Good, but nothing impressing in listing the benefits of those foods as I can do the same with vegan foods. Do you want me to list all the vegan highly nutritious foods along with their nutritive facts and benefits? What's the point?


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## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

Plant Based diet showed 73% percent *less* likely to get moderate to severe covid-19. Keto diet showed 48% *more* likely to get moderate to severe covid-19. I guess those claiming to be superior to those now labelled "anti-vaxxers" better get on a plant based diet, or step off their high horse.

Our chosen diets are likely going to have greater effect than vaccines vs delta variant.









Plant-Based Diets Linked to Less Severe Illness from COVID-19


Plant-based diets are linked to less severe illness from COVID-19, according to a study published in the BMJ Nutrition, Prevention & Health.




www.pcrm.org





Now to be fair, this wasn't a perfect study, but many studies throughout the years show similar effects of plant based diets providing good immunity.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Or not!









The dark side of the spoon - glucose, ketones and COVID-19: a possible role for ketogenic diet? - Journal of Translational Medicine


The novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19) is posing a serious challenge to the health-care systems worldwide, with an enormous impact on health conditions and loss of lives. Notably, obesity and its related comorbidities are strictly related with worse clinical outcomes of COVID-19 disease...




translational-medicine.biomedcentral.com





and









Ketogenic Diet as a Preventive and Supportive Care for COVID-19 Patients


Severe obesity is associated with an increased risk of admission to intensive care units and need for invasive mechanical ventilation in patients with COVID-19. The association of obesity and COVID-19 prognosis may be related to many different factors, ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

5Lgreenback said:


> Plant Based diet showed 73% percent *less* likely to get moderate to severe covid-19. Keto diet showed 48% *more* likely to get moderate to severe covid-19. I guess those claiming to be superior to those now labelled "anti-vaxxers" better get on a plant based diet, or step off their high horse.
> 
> Our chosen diets are likely going to have greater effect than vaccines vs delta variant.
> 
> ...


Smoking also significantly decreased severity of COVID infection


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

damian13ster said:


> Smoking also significantly decreased severity of COVID infection


As well as Vodka 🤣


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I doubt the diet has anything to do with it...the fearful lifestyle has everything to do with avoiding Covid...a likely correlation.


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

afulldeck said:


> While I have nothing against plant food. They are not 100% essential for long-term health.


Umm- ever heard of scurvy? Vitamin C is only from plants.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

Well other than stuff like liver n onions, kidney pie,caviar, scrambled eggs or a nice cup of milk...(real milk) but I get lots from drinking the odd Screwdriver.


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

indexxx said:


> Umm- ever heard of scurvy? Vitamin C is *only* from plants.



Incorrect. Eat liver.....btw, the less glucose one consumes, the less vitamin C one needs. And it’s not just vitamin C. Glucose lowers plasma potassium levels and less glucose leads to better magnesium levels....



*APPLE (100 g)**CARROTS (100 g)**RED MEAT (100 g)**BEEF LIVER (100 g)*Calcium3.0 mg3.3 mg11.0 mg11.0 mgPhosphorus6.0 mg31.0 mg140.0 mg476.0 mgMagnesium4.8 mg6.2 mg15.0 mg18.0 mgPotassium139.0 mg222.0 mg370.0 mg380.0 mgIron.1 mg.6 mg3.3 mg8.8 mgZinc.05 mg.3 mg4.4 mg4.0 mgCopper.04 mg.08 mg.18 mg12.0 mgVitamin ANoneNone40 IU53,400 IUVitamin DNoneNoneTrace19 IUVitamin E.37 mg.11 mg1.7 mg.63 mgVitamin C7.0 mg6.0 mgNone27.0 mgThiamin.03 mg.05 mg.05 mg.26 mgRiboflavin.02 mg.05 mg.20 mg4.19 mgNiacin.10 mg.60 mg4.0 mg16.5 mgPantothenic Acid.11 mg.19 mg.42 mg8.8 mgVitamin B6.03 mg.10 mg.07 mg.73 mgFolate8.0 mcg24.0 mcg4.0 mcg145.0 mcgBiotinNone.42 mcg2.08 mcg96.0 mcgVitamin B12NoneNone1.84 mcg111.3 mcg


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

afulldeck said:


> Eat liver


It is recommended to eat liver no more than once a week due to hypervitaminosis A, so how do you get your daily dose of vitamin C?


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

afulldeck said:


> While I have nothing against plant food. They are not 100% essential for long-term health.


Healthy eating is achieved by eating the rainbow. I'm not sure how you can do that without fruits and vegetables.









Phytonutrients: Paint your plate with the colors of the rainbow - Harvard Health


Phytonutrients in fruits and vegetables can protect us from chronic diseases if we eat enough of them. Because different produce contains different phytonutrients, consuming as much of a variety as...




www.health.harvard.edu


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## 5Lgreenback (Mar 21, 2015)

This thread is a great example of how marketing has set out to intentionally confuse and corrupt the field of science. Industry funded studies are the norm now, the scientists know if they don't put out studies showing benefit to those paying for the study, they will be out of work. The vast majority of good science, without conflicts of interest points to a plant predominant diet showing the best long term health outcomes. Dr. John Mc Dougall warned about this corruption of science over 20 years ago, and the corruption has only gotten much more elaborate.

As bad as this is, its a drop in the bucket to the evil that WHO, CDC, FDA pharma and their collaborators big tech and MSM are doing with the global vax campaign.

Debating nutrition will be irrelevant if we let this fascist collaboration take control.


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

Colon cancer rates are extremely correlated to amount of fibre being eaten. I would encourage everyone to eat plants, 100%. It is well known that eating fruits and vegetables is a major contributor to overall health. I don't think you need to go vegan to be healthy, but I do doubt you can be healthy if you just eat meat/dairy/eggs and no plants at all. 









Role of dietary fiber in colon cancer: an overview - PubMed


Studies have demonstrated a reduced risk of colon cancer when populations with diets high in total fat switched to a diet high in total fiber and certain whole-grain foods. Case-control studies have shown convincingly the relationship between dietary fiber and colon cancer. Studies in animal...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov












Vegetables and Fruits


Vegetables and fruits are an important part of a healthy diet, and variety is as important as quantity. No single fruit or vegetable provides all of the nutrients you need to be healthy. Eat plenty…




www.hsph.harvard.edu


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> Healthy eating is achieved by eating the rainbow. I'm not sure how you can do that without fruits and vegetables.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’ve never said that we don’t have to eat plants! We need to have balance food, meat, fish, seafood, dairy, eggs and also vegetables and herbs. For example B12 is only in meat and fish. 
However, vegans discard everything except plants, this is dangerous extreme fanatism


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## Spudd (Oct 11, 2011)

gibor365 said:


> I’ve never said that we don’t have to eat plants! We need to have balance food, meat, fish, seafood, dairy, eggs and also vegetables and herbs. For example B12 is only in meat and fish.
> However, vegans discard everything except plants, this is dangerous extreme fanatism


No, but someone else in the thread did.


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I like plants, just not ones that try to imitate a juicy burger patty.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

gibor365 said:


> For example B12 is only in meat and fish.


B12 is produced by bacteria from soil and water, but now that water is treated, we don't get it from water. You get B12 from meat because animals are supplemented in B12. Better supplement yourself directly in B12 instead of getting it indirectly from animal's supplementation. B12 is not a vegan issue.


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Spudd said:


> No, but someone else in the thread did.


I like balanced dishes, so one of my favorite cuisines is Georgian. I frequently make Adzhapsandal, Chakapuli, Chanahi etc... A lot of meat with a lot of veggies and herbs (the problem that some of needed herbs is very difficult to find in Canada). This week I'm making Chakapuli (as I finally found needed cherry plums in Yummy Market)








Chakapuli - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## indexxx (Oct 31, 2011)

MrBlackhill said:


> B12 is produced by bacteria from soil and water, but now that water is treated, we don't get it from water. You get B12 from meat because animals are supplemented in B12. Better supplement yourself directly in B12 instead of getting it indirectly from animal's supplementation. B12 is not a vegan issue.


Yes- we used to get it from "wild" water- streams, lakes, etc. B12 is also found in some algae, in Nori (the pressed seaweed sheets used in Japanese cuisine and sold as seaweed snacks, also a good source of iodine and iron), in certain mushrooms and teas, some fermented foods (because the active bacteria produces it), and in organic produce fertilized with manure (from the bacteria in the microbiome of the animal's intestines). Nutritional yeast is also extremely high in B12 as well as other vitamins.


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## MrBlackhill (Jun 10, 2020)

indexxx said:


> Nutritional yeast is also extremely high in B12 as well as other vitamins.


Yes, I put nutritional yeast almost everywhere! Such a superfood!


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## afulldeck (Mar 28, 2012)

Why We Should Be Eating More Meat, Not Less







www.sapien.org


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

afulldeck said:


> Why We Should Be Eating More Meat, Not Less
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good article!


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

But but but...a cow is more friendly to the environment than a cauliflower??? Heresy...off with his head!


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eder said:


> But but but...a cow is more friendly to the environment than a cauliflower??? Heresy...off with his head!


Cows is probably the most important animal in the World! It’s used 100%- dairy, meat, skin, legs, all internal organs, tail and even [email protected] (amazing fertilization)!


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## Eder (Feb 16, 2011)

I agree a cow is important but it is arguably second place to a pig...(no offense to Jewish friends but that is the reality)


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## damian13ster (Apr 19, 2021)

Vegetarian Diet Linked To High Depression Scores, Suggests Large Meta-Analysis


Vegetarian Diet Linked To High Depression Scores, Suggests Large Meta-Analysis




www.iflscience.com


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## gibor365 (Apr 1, 2011)

Eder said:


> I agree a cow is important but it is arguably second place to a pig...(no offense to Jewish friends but that is the reality)


No way! Unless you consume milk and other diary from pigs.... . But no doubt , pig is a very useful and tasteful animal as well as lamb, deer, rabbits, bison etc


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