# Fraudulent transfers from chequing account



## RachII (Jan 3, 2011)

Just discovered and are in early stages of responding to this discovery. My wife has POA over her mother who is in extended care. She just discovered today there are several unauthorised transfers from her mom's chequing account over the past five months - probably $30,000.00+ in total. She is contacting her siblings and has notified the bank. She feels terrible she didn't discover the fraud earlier. I expect/hope the destination of those transfers can be determined. One of them mysteriously identifies Home Depot but the rest are not identified (at least on the banking website). Does anyone have any experience with this? Is the bank under any obligation to insure the money?


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Is your wife the only poa. Would your MIL have given out her banking info somehow or have it written down somewhere accessable? Your wife? Lots of scams to obtain this info- phishing etc.
I assume these are all online transfers?
Have you changed password and notified bank and police.
Circumstances will dictate what happens with bank. Clerical error with some else linked to account? Outright fraud with someone obtaining mils banking info?
Bank may be able to reverse transfers depending again on what happened. Your spouse and mil are responsible for keeping login info secure so you may be facing a loss. Sometimes the bank will eat this or a portion depending on your actions.
Unless it was an error on banks part, they are not obligated if the fraudster obtained the info from your spouse or mil.


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## Mukhang pera (Feb 26, 2016)

I suspect the handiwork of Mr. X, cashing in, just a little bit.

Sorry RachII, I could not resist that allusion to another thread. 

As for your question, until more is known about the mechanism(s) and by what agency the funds left the account to which you refer, one can only guess, particularly with respect to any liability of the bank to make good the loss.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I suspect the potential for an 'inside job' whereby a staff member at the care centre may have gotten hold of MIL's PIN (if these were ATM withdrawls) or password (online transactions). It would not be the first time. I agree with twa2w that whether the bank does anything will be situational (how it happened), and/or some public relations/goodwill.

If the bank can identify source of the transactions, it should help narrow down the possiblities.

I make it a point to do a 'quick once over' of all my online accounts every week to look for anomalies. My bro and I did the same for our mother for about 24 yrs since she was rather careless about her personal information.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

Assuming none of the siblings are responsible, this is also a matter for the police and the senior management of the long term care facility. (Actually, even if it is the siblings, but I won't go there.)


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

AltaRed said:


> I suspect the potential for an 'inside job' whereby a staff member at the care centre may have gotten hold of MIL's PIN (if these were ATM withdrawls) or password (online transactions). It would not be the first time. I agree with twa2w that whether the bank does anything will be situational (how it happened), and/or some public relations/goodwill.


IF the withdrawals were using the MIL bank card and the PIN was revealed to the perp...the bank will not compensate you for the loss.
The bank(s) consider it your fault as the POA , or the owner of the bank card to *protect the pin.*



> If the bank can identify source of the transactions, it should help narrow down the possibilities.


IF there was a video camera present and police were notified of the fraudulent withdrawals...
maybe they might catch the perpetrator, but .....if the cash was removed from a ATM, 
where no video camera was installed by the bank..the police will only take the report. 



> I make it a point to do a 'quick once over' of all my online accounts every week to look for anomalies. My bro and I did the same for our mother for about 24 yrs since she was rather careless about her personal information.


If you write down the PIN anywhere, and somebody goes through your wallet/purse...it can happen. Most checking accts have a daily cash limit of $1000..that is *too high for someone who is in an institution*. 

You can call the bank to reset the daily limit to $500 to minimize exposure to others who work there.

Someone could sneak into the MIL room after she is asleep, take the card, withdraw the money on a daily basis.


Here is a question for the POA.....why wasn't the MIL bank account checked for balance at least monthly?


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> Assuming none of the siblings are responsible, this is also a matter for the police and the senior management of the long term care facility. (Actually, even if it is the siblings, but I won't go there.)


LTC is not responsible for loss or theft. You or the POA have to sign papers that relieves the retirement home/LTC that they
are not responsible.

I was in a retirement home (convalescing) for 3 days after being hospitalized for heart issue. ( I was too weak to go home
immediately due to stair lifts and toilet routine.)

Most of the staff had keys to enter my room at any time of the night or day (for safety reasons..heart attack etc)

I was instructed to keep my wallet/valuables in a "safe place" when I was admitted on the first day..but there is no safe place in these rooms. 

if you hide your wallet/purse under your pillow ..there can be two staff members present in your room to assist you with toilet function, and IF you go down to the dining room or leave your room for any length of time, the cleaning laundry staff
also have KEY access to your room.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

carverman said:


> LTC is not responsible for loss or theft. You or the POA have to sign papers that relieves the retirement home/LTC that they
> are not responsible.


Not the LTC but if the card was fraudulently used by a staff member, that staff member has committed a criminal offense. The LTC may still be partially responsible if it was a staff member and the LTC did not appropriately screen that staff member for employment. Until (and only if) the bank can detect a pattern narrowing down the culpirt, it is likely a lost cause. On the face of it, it seems to be PIN compromise.

Having a low daily limit on debits and ATM withdrawals is key for individuals who don't have the capacity to mange their affairs. My bro and I had the bank drop ATM withdrawals to $100 for our mother and her credit card limit was $2000.



> Here is a question for the POA.....why wasn't the MIL bank account checked for balance at least monthly?


That is 20-20 hindsight now. As I mentioned upthread, accounts should be checked at least monthly and I routinely do it weekly (on about a dozen accounts - investment, bank, credit card). It is simply one of those things that should be scheduled.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

AltaRed said:


> ...
> *That is 20-20 hindsight now. As I mentioned upthread, accounts should be checked at least monthly *and I routinely do it weekly (on about a dozen accounts - investment, bank, credit card). It is simply one of those things that should be scheduled.


 ... and watch the helpful bank responds with that statement "accountholder has 30 days to detect errors or omissions and bring it to our attention" ... regardless I think the OP should contact the police asap and get them to open up an investigation - $30K+ is not small change and since amounts were lifted over a period of 5 months, a pattern should emerge.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

If the transfers were done on line, it should be easy to track the recipient. They may even show on the mils on line banking list of payees.
For example, if money was transfered on line to Home Depot, there would have to be an identifying account number at Home Depot to assign the funds to. This should identify the perp. Unless it was a full blown identity theft and the mil had an account in her name set up at hd by the perp.


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## RachII (Jan 3, 2011)

Thanks for replies everyone. I mistakenly said one of the fraudulent payments was through Home-Depot but it was actually the only legitimate one (new bed for mom). The others are apparently international transfers and the sources are not identified??? They are not ATM withdrawals. The manager dealing with us said "in all likelihood" the money will be reimbursed. Makes me wonder if that means they suspect an inside job? or maybe a fault in their security? Police and bank are involved in investigation...


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

RachII said:


> Thanks for replies everyone. I mistakenly said one of the fraudulent payments was through Home-Depot but it was actually the only legitimate one (new bed for mom). The others are apparently international transfers and the sources are not identified??? They are not ATM withdrawals. *The manager dealing with us said "in all likelihood" the money will be reimbursed. Makes me wonder if that means they suspect an inside job?* or maybe a fault in their security? Police and bank are involved in investigation...


 ... I wonder too - would be good to find out who the "perp" is, keep us posted as we do have a **Scams Alert** thread. But first and foremost that your mom gets reimbursed for all the amounts fraudalently taken.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

RachII said:


> The others are apparently international transfers and the sources are not identified??? They are not ATM withdrawals. The manager dealing with us said "in all likelihood" the money will be reimbursed. Makes me wonder if that means they suspect an inside job? or maybe a fault in their security? Police and bank are involved in investigation...


 International transfers..done from the bank from the victim's account. Anyone with access to the victims account (knowing the PIN, debit card number, account number and secure login password) can do that.

For instance, this is what RBC says:

7. What do I need to send money overseas?
You will need:

An RBC banking account(1)
Be enrolled in RBC Online Banking(3)
Sufficient funds in your account to send
The recipient’s bank account number /IBAN/CLABE (for Mexico) or the Business Identifier Code (SWIFT BIC/ABA) for the bank/branch the funds are to be sent to or picked up.
The reason for the transfer

While it's imperative the cops get involved, whether the bank will provide compensation after even filing for a police report, it is still doubtful depending on the circumstances. 
When a POA is made up and signed, the person with the POA could also be held responsible for transactions from that account...local or international.
But it all depends on the wording.

here is an excerpt from a POA document I found online;



> Furthermore, even if a power of attorney for finances document contains a clause granting the agent broad gifting power, an agent nonetheless has a fiduciary duty of loyalty to the principal."8 *Thus, an agent may not gift to himself or herself or others with impunity*. The gifting must be consistent with the terms and conditions of the gifting clause. Where the gifting clause does not specify the nature and amount of the gifts allowed, t*he agent nonetheless has a fiduciary duty to act with the principal's utmost concern in mind, not the agent's*.19 Finally, an argument could be made that an agent who believes
> he or she is authorized under the power of attorney for finances document to gift to himself or others has a duty to disclose those gifts and obtain consent
> from the principal.2 ° Certainly, a principal may grant an agent broad gifting powers.


What I don't understand is... why anyone assigned to handle POA would wait several months (5?) to find out about unauthorized withdrawals. Banks issue monthly account statements either by mail or online. 

I check my account almost on a daily basis.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree with caverman that the likeliihood of being kept whole by RBC depends on the circumstancees. It is up to the individual to keep his/her account secure, including debit card, PIN and online banking password. If those were given out by the individual directly (or indirectly such as having the nunbers written down on paper to be found by others), RBC really has no responsibility in this matter. It is further complicated here that the POA may be looked upon as a potential guilty party since that POA likely has access to this information....and would at the very least be a bonafide 'person of interest' in any investigation. The problem here, as stated a number of times, is additionally complicated by the lack of at least monthly attention to the accounts by the POA.

Legally, as said above, the POA could be the one to be held responsible for losses because of the fudiciary duty of the POA to the individual. Being a POA is serious business. I suspect the POA in this particular case now, in hindsight, has significant regrets about the lack of due attention to the account.

Anecdotally, a lot of POAs do not take their responsibilities as seriously as they should. I read a lot of fairly cavalier, casual attitudes by POAs in forums such as this. A POA has a serious legal duty just like an executor of an estate does. A person should not agree to be either a POA or an executor if they either don't fully understand their responsibilities or don't carry them out with the diligence required. The fudiciary responsiblity is personal. I am named as an Enduring POA for 2 persons in my life and I hope I never need to act on them. But if I do, I will be providing written summaries of all records and actions to the other vested interests, e.g. direct family members and potential heirs/beneficiaries at least on an annual basis.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

RachII said:


> Thanks for replies everyone. I mistakenly said one of the fraudulent payments was through Home-Depot but it was actually the only legitimate one (new bed for mom). The others are apparently international transfers and the sources are not identified??? They are not ATM withdrawals. *The manager dealing with us said "in all likelihood" the money will be reimbursed*. Makes me wonder if that means they suspect an inside job? or *maybe a fault in their security*? Police and bank are involved in investigation...


The money deposited in a personal account is protected by CIDC up to $100,000. PROVIDED the circumstances can be
considered outright theft. *However*, the CDIC, and the bank in question will need to do a full investigation which will take some time. 
Once it is reported to the police, the police and the bank have to investigate the circumstances under which the unauthorized funds were transferred.

Dates, Times, internet access into the banking account of the victim, how much was taken per day, and who was working in the bank at the time. IF it was an internet access.

Today the banking system is computerized, so the computers store EVERYTHING relating to the online accounts (or passbook accounts) where money is removed from an ATM, and to where the money was sent (foreign bank) which can also investigate
from their side, if there is an police (INTERPOL) request to do so.

Online account access has further protection with secured links..HTTPS: The lock symbol and the "S"after HTTP means secured.

Normally, if you enter a PIN code too many times from a ATM, the ATM will keep the card and the screen will tell you to contact the bank to retrieve your card, where you credentials can be checked by the bank before the card is returned.

Online access to an account requires BOTH the access card number (debit card) and the PIN which the banks warn you to keep secure and not write it down ANYWHERE. If you disclose the PIN to another person (family or other) you better be sure you can trust that person 100%, and if the money is removed, the ATM transaction slip, the amount taken and the balance will be shown on the slip, if the withdrawal is authorized by you (POA).


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Like Caverman, I suspect approximately zero chance of a 'fault in the bank's security'. More likely is an inside job by a staff member at the institution that was able to get access to debit card and PIN (or more likely an online password), particularly if "International transfers" were involved. Even then, there is limited ability to do 'international transfers' other than use of Interac email transfers or Bill Payments....and the latter two would require the funds go through the account of another Canadian financial institution first. 

As Caverman says, eveything is recorded by computers these days so 'following the money' should not be hard.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

CDIC does not cover theft. They cover deposits in event of bank failure.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

twa2w said:


> CDIC does not cover theft. They cover deposits in event of bank failure.


Thanks, my mistake. 



> CDIC automatically insures many types of savings against the failure of a financial institution. However, the bank must be a CDIC member and not all savings are insured. The CDIC does not protect against fraud or theft.


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## OhGreatGuru (May 24, 2009)

*"I was instructed to keep my wallet/valuables in a "safe place" when I was admitted (for 3-day convalescence) on the first day..but there is no safe place in these rooms." *

There definitely is no safe place, any more than there is in a hospital. The LTC staff should have been more explicit that it be "off the premises". Most LTC's do not allow permanent residents to keep cash or credit/debit cards, precisely because of the risk of loss or theft. 

*"The others are apparently international transfers and the sources are not identified??? They are not ATM withdrawals. The manager dealing with us said "in all likelihood" the money will be reimbursed. Makes me wonder if that means they suspect an inside job? or maybe a fault in their security? Police and bank are involved in investigation..."*

Definitely smells like an inside job. Which again is the reason why (responsible) LTC's don't want residents to have identity info that can be stolen. I can see this as a problem in the internet age. Residents of LTCs who are still mentally competent understandably may wish to have continued internet access to their financial accounts - if for no better reason than to check up on what their POA is doing. Some may be physically invalided, but still actively managing investment portfolios. I don't know how LTC's (or banks) are managing safeguards for this. Another issue for aging baby boomers to look into.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

OhGreatGuru said:


> *"I was instructed to keep my wallet/valuables in a "safe place" *.


Yes, and if you don't keep your wallet with you in a fanny pack that is on you all the time, then you need a secure locked down container on your wheelchair or what-have-you, as the housekeeping staff can enter your room at any time to 'make up the bed" while you are at breakfast, lunch, dinner and in the games or big screen TV room watching sports.



> I can see this as a problem in the internet age. Residents of LTCs who are still mentally competent understandably may wish to have continued internet access to their financial accounts - if for no better reason than to check up on what their POA is doing. Some may be physically invalided, but still actively managing investment portfolios. I don't know how LTC's (or banks) are managing safeguards for this. *Another issue for aging baby boomers to look into*.


I didn't have an iPad before I entered the LTC (for what would be a month's convalescence after being released from the hospital and very weak to look after myself. 
After 3 days of Non assisted living (especially the short staffed weekends), I checked myself out and got a friend to drive
home. 
Around the same time, i had an Ipad given to me by my daughter for my b-day, and after a few days at home , downoading banking/credit card Apps, I am good to go, if it every happens that i need to leave my home for any period of time.

However, my experience with the residents of the LTC, most are in various states of dementia and barely able to remember anything, let alone passwords and PINs. This may be what has happened , but it's hard to say because some services like hair or foot care
are extra and require payment at the time of that personal service. There may be other situations like group shopping trips
where seniors are bussed by the LTC bus or van to a nearby shopping centre and the debit card could be used by a "helper"
to help the senior. 
Yes, this is definitely a big issue for seniors in that category in their "golden years" prime targets.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

I had an experience with theft from my bank account a couple of years ago. It was 2:00 a.m. and I couldn't sleep, so I got up and turned my computer on. It has become a habit after I log on to open my e-mail account first thing and secondly to check my bank account. When I went to my bank account, I noticed a debit of $800 dated that day with no explanation. I knew I hadn't paid a bill or withdrawn money between midnight and 2 a.m. that very day, so I phoned the 24-hour phone number Scotiabank phone shown on the back of my bank card. The agent there looked into it and found that the $800 was still in the process of being transferred via Western Union to an Eastern European country (I've forgotten which one). I asked if the bank would reimburse me, and she said it wouldn't be necessary because the money was still in transit and they would be able to stop it, which they did. But she assured me that, if it had been too late for that, the bank would have covered it.

I spoke to the bank manager the next day, and he assured me that the loss, had there been one, would have been reimbursed by the bank, but he either couldn't or wouldn't speculate on what had happened. There had never been any other reason to think that anyone else had my password or PIN number. I had never given those to anyone else - not even my daughter who has my POA - nor had I ever written them down. I changed those numbers immediately, of course, and the bank issued me a new bank card, but my curiosity about how it had come about has never been satisfied.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

Interesting situation for sure Karen. Knowing a Western Union transfer can be done from Scotiabank online banking, it would seem someone hacked your account. Good that you caught it to avoid the hassle of reimbursement.

FWIW, after my father died, and he had done ALL the financials, it took time for my bro and I to help our mother to handle relatively simple financial business on her own. To help protect her, we got online access to her accounts so that we could monitor her banking, credit card and investment accounts on a regular basis. Our mother would likely have never caught that sort of fraudulent use on her own, until she was cleaned out.


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

> ...Good that you caught it to avoid the hassle of reimbursement.


Yes, that was one night that I was glad I hadn't been able to sleep!


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## Slim1950 (Apr 25, 2013)

Karen said:


> and the bank issued me a new bank card, but my curiosity about how it had come about has never been satisfied.


In my case, the bank was very tight-lipped about where it happened and how.

I was ripped off twice. Once I was called by the bank, who told me that my card had been compromised. Somewhere that I had used my debit card there was a device that stole the info on my card and was going to use that info. Every person who had used a debit card in the last few days received a call, and had to get a new card.

But they would not release the information about where this took place. I think they maintain confidentiality because they are trying to protect the merchant. The owner of a business is not at fault, I suppose, if an employee is stealing debit card info at the point of sale.

The second time, I noticed a $3000 charge on my credit card. It was a brand new credit card, and I had only used it ONCE. I knew immediately where it happened although the bank would neither confirm or deny.

It happened at a Uhaul location, where I rented a truck for a day. The very next day, I noticed a $3000 purchase at a Sears store for furniture.

The bank reimbursed me. But it must be their policy not to reveal the locations at which the fraud took place. SO my curioisty was never satisfied either. I wanted to make sure that that U-haul employee got turfed.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Slim1950 said:


> In my case, the bank was very tight-lipped about where it happened and how.
> 
> I was ripped off twice. Once I was called by the bank, who told me that my card had been compromised. Somewhere that I had used my debit card there was a device that stole the info on my card and was going to use that info. Every person who had used a debit card in the last few days received a call, and had to get a new card.


This has happened to me at a CTC where my PCF credit card was not going through with the transaction. Clerk told me. "I can help you with that"
and he took the card and did something on his side of the checkout to make the card work. 

Soon afterwards, when i went to use the CC card again, it was shut down because it was compromised.
PCF mC sent me a replacement card. 

Cards can be compromised depending on how the transaction takes place. 

After 3 compromises with the PCFMC, I switched to Capital One and no problems with it. They also send me a email
if there is ANY FOREIGN transactions taking place with my card as a heads up, even if I place the order myself.
Capital One is much more on the ball as far as fraud resolution also. I had what I would call amost fraud with my AVG antivirus support..but
I won't go into it here as it was discussed on another topic in this forum.



> But they would not release the information about where this took place. I think they maintain confidentiality because they are trying to protect the merchant. The owner of a business is not at fault, I suppose, *if an employee is stealing debit card info at the point of sale. *


*

I think this happened at a gas station here a couple years ago where the gas bar attendant was skimming the card information behind the counter when customers handed him their debit or credit cards. 

That was the older POS system that the gas merchant got rid of very quickly once the word got out what happened. 
Now the customer does his/her own transaction, on the POS terminal so it's not as easy to skim information.

However, there are these Near Field readers (NFC) that can read CC card chips very easily. 
We did an experiment recently with a Smart phone app that will allow you to read the CC information up close as well.



NFC stands for Near Field Communication, and, as the name implies, it's a set of close-range wireless communication standards. NFC-equipped smartphones and other devices can exchange information with each other with a simple tap or wave.

Click to expand...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The second time, I noticed a $3000 charge on my credit card. It was a brand new credit card, and I had only used it ONCE. I knew immediately where it happened although the bank would neither confirm or deny. 
It happened at a Uhaul location, where I rented a truck for a day. The very next day, I noticed a $3000 purchase at a Sears store for furniture.
The bank reimbursed me. But it must be their policy not to reveal the locations at which the fraud took place. SO my curioisty was never satisfied either. I wanted to make sure that that U-haul employee got turfed.

Click to expand...

Card skimmer?*


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> I had an experience with theft from my bank account a couple of years ago. It was 2:00 a.m. and I couldn't sleep, so I got up and turned my computer on. It has become a habit after I log on to open my e-mail account first thing and secondly to check my bank account. When I went to my bank account, I noticed a debit of $800 dated that day with no explanation.
> 
> 
> I knew I hadn't paid a bill or withdrawn money between midnight and 2 a.m. that very day, so I phoned the 24-hour phone number Scotiabank phone shown on the
> I spoke to the bank manager the next day, and he assured me that the loss, had there been one, would have been reimbursed by the bank, but he either couldn't or wouldn't speculate on what had happened. There had never been any other reason to think that anyone else had my password or PIN number. I had never given those to anyone else - not even my daughter who has my POA - nor had I ever written them down. I changed those numbers immediately, of course, and the bank issued me a new bank card, but my curiosity about how it had come about has never been satisfied.


Karen, with so many clever cyber criminals out there with robotic programs to catch computers still online, and if they can gain access into your computer through a weak firewall and search for any saved banking browsers, they could get that information from your account.
Never have Google save a password to important accounts like banking..that's what they are looking for.
Always erase any banking browser you may have set up to do your banking.

I also use Malwarebytes to detect any strange malware like Trojans...a malware cyber criminal program that can sit in your computer UNDETECTED by pretty much all anti-virus because the anti-virus does not specifically track down Trojans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus_(malware)


> Zeus is very difficult to detect even with up-to-date antivirus and other security software as it hides itself using stealth techniques.[4] It is considered that this is the primary reason why the Zeus malware has become the largest botnet on the Internet


 a WARNING TO ALL CMFers: READ THIS!

*Banking Trojans are among the stealthiest of all Trojans. After a banking Trojan infects a Web browser, it will lie dormant, waiting for the computer's user to visit his or her online banking website.*
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/banking-trojan-definition,news-18457.html


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## Karen (Jul 24, 2010)

Good advice, carverman. And of course, I always say "no" when Google asks if I want to save a password on things like my banking accounts. But in view of all the warnings the banks give us about NEVER sharing our passwords or PIN numbers, I am amazed that they issue credit cards that can simply be scanned across their card readers without entering any kind of code. I refuse to use that feature on my credit cards. I know that doesn't do any good; if I lost my card and didn't realize it for a few days, it could still be used by anyone who found it, but I like to think I'm registering an objection by refusing to use the card without entering my PIN number.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Karen said:


> Good advice, carverman. And of course, I always say "no" when Google asks if I want to save a password on things like my banking accounts. But in view of all the warnings the banks give us about NEVER sharing our passwords or PIN numbers, I* am amazed that they issue credit cards that can simply be scanned across their card readers without entering any kind of code. I refuse to use that feature on my credit cards. * I know that doesn't do any good; if I lost my card and didn't realize it for a few days, it could still be used by anyone who found it, but I like to think I'm registering an objection by refusing to use the card without entering my PIN number.


 ... that is the "tap" feature that comes with the "technologically-advanced" chip (aka no opt-out) which is embedded in the card, not just credit cards but also "debit" cards which is so stupid. The bank's marketing folks claim this is for "ease of use, convenience, quicker access to your $$$" for .. the thief. Never mind about the costs for this technological update. 

Not sure if registering an objection for refusing to use the card without entering a PIN will get anywhere near the ear of a bankster... your objection email/letter will most likely be deleted as you're considered one of the outlier, IMO. 

I would simply refuse to use that feature so there's no track record of such usage ... ie. every transaction would require a PIN input, only I would have made or known of otherwise that PIN-less transaction would be fraudulent outright.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

Slim1950 said:


> In my case, the bank was very tight-lipped about where it happened and how.
> 
> ...


 ... yep, as transparent as banksters can be, in the excuse of privacy, for whom? :rolleyes2:


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> Good advice, carverman. And of course, I always say "no" when Google asks if I want to save a password on things like my banking accounts. But in view of all the warnings the banks give us about NEVER sharing our passwords or PIN numbers, I am amazed that they issue credit cards that can simply be scanned across their card readers without entering any kind of code. I refuse to use that feature on my credit cards. I know that doesn't do any good; if I lost my card and didn't realize it for a few days, it could still be used by anyone who found it, but I like to think I'm registering an objection by refusing to use the card without entering my PIN number.


Beav, you are referring to the RFID chip that most credit cards, and most bank cards have these days..tap n'go. All you have to enter is the pin on the bank card and on the CC not even a PIN. Makes it very easy for thieves to rip out a lot of money (up to the daily limit) or up to the CC limit. 

As a precaution, you could punch or drill a hole through the RFID chip so that it is rendered useless for tap n' go, but then you would have to swipe the card on a conventional card reader that can accommodate the magnetic strip on the back. Problem is these days that most POS terminals don't come equipped with the magnetic card reader and that magnetic strip can wear out, rendering the debit or CC card totally useless.


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## Beaver101 (Nov 14, 2011)

carverman said:


> Beav, you are referring to the RFID chip that most credit cards, and most bank cards have these days..tap n'go.* All you have to enter is the pin on the bank card and on the CC not even a PIN. * Makes it very easy for thieves to rip out a lot of money (up to the daily limit) or up to the CC limit.


 ... ... enter pin on bank card/CC and not even a PIN??? Not following.



> As a precaution, you could punch or drill a hole through the RFID chip so that it is rendered useless for tap n' go, but then you would have to swipe the card on a conventional card reader that can accommodate the magnetic strip on the back. *Problem is these days that most POS terminals don't come equipped with the magnetic card reader and that magnetic strip can wear out, rendering the debit or CC card totally useless*.


 ... they got around this with a slot on the bottom of the hand-held terminal where you stick in your card and then punch-in your PIN ... if they remove this PIN-entry feature and force the consumer to use a tap-feature only, then I can drop the purchase and shop elsewhere.


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## AltaRed (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't think the PIN chip enabled readers are going the way of the dodo bird. They are the most secure way to make purchases. Personally, I like the Tap feature and use that whenever I can. I believe all businesses limit the transaction size to $100 or less so there is minimal risk IF one is checking their accounts on a regular basis.

Magnetic stripe cards can be compromised with nefarious POS terminals and anyone's signature can be forged and I think they will eventually disappear once the USA, in particular, gets with the chip enabled program. Lots of USA cards still do not have chip enabled card though the transistion is taking place. I have had chip enabled Wells Fargo cards for well over a year now but few merchants have the terminals for them. During our month in Hawaii, I asked merchants why they have been so slow to convert and got the usual response... a shrug, blaming it on head office, etc.


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Beaver101 said:


> ... ... enter pin on bank card/CC and not even a PIN??? Not following.


Sorry, I really meant the CC card,not the bank card and yes, even the CC card tapn'go purchase is limited to $100.

If the purchase is even a dollar above $100,then you have to insert the card and punch in the PIN on the CC card.



> ... they got around this with a slot on the bottom of the hand-held terminal where you stick in your card and then punch-in your PIN ... if they remove this PIN-entry feature and force the consumer to use a tap-feature only, then I can drop the purchase and shop elsewhere.


I think you will be ok..as I explained above..^^^^^


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## carverman (Nov 8, 2010)

Karen said:


> Good advice, carverman. And of course, I always say "no" when Google asks if I want to save a password on things like my banking accounts. But in view of all the warnings the banks give us about NEVER sharing our passwords or PIN numbers, I am amazed that they issue credit cards that can simply be scanned across their card readers without entering any kind of code. I refuse to use that feature on my credit cards. I know that doesn't do any good; if I lost my card and didn't realize it for a few days, it could still be used by anyone who found it, but I like to think I'm registering an objection by refusing to use the card without entering my PIN number.


As I explained to Beav; the tap n'go is limited to small purchases up to $100. The CC company or bank will come good for any fraudulent use of the CC card up to $100. I believe according to the CC agreement, you have to notify the CC company ASAP when you discover it stolen or missing. 
Not sure however if that means $100 per day or $100 per transaction though.


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## twa2w (Mar 5, 2016)

Diferent issuers have different rules for the tap and go features. The transaction limit can be between $50 and $200.00. Some have a daily limit as well. 
Most also have a limit on the number of tap and go transactions. On one of mine, you are limited to 3 tap and go transactions, so on the 4th, they require you to insert your card and enter your pin. Then you can fo another 3 tap and goes. This in theory limits the bsnks liability in the case of lost cards.


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