# opinions sought on studded winter tires



## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

With the winter freezing rain of southern Ontario, I enjoyed winter tires for many a slippery season. Further west, I am again considering winter tires. There is deep snow here and they do a poor job of cleaning the roads & my parking lot in a timely manner. One option is studs. I understand these are illegal in certain areas. I do remove my winter tires in the spring, but tire storage is a big problem for me, which is why I'm still in the consideration stage. I also do not have the ability or facilities or tools to change tires on my own. So I think rims are kind of a waste of money and am thinking of just getting the tires.

Comments? Opinions?


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

I had BFG winter slaloms (studded) on our '98 civic until that car got t-boned by a drunk.

I LOVED them. 

We put Michelins (not studded) on the new civic, and quite frankly I would rather have the BFG's (studded or not). I think they are better suited to the conditions I face.

I really, really, really, really miss the studded tires.


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## Potato (Apr 3, 2009)

I think rims are a good idea -- they're no harder to store than tires alone, and they'll pay off after 4-5 years of change-overs to the same rim, and does make changeovers at least in theory a do-it-yourself job (or a do-it-with-your-well-equipped-friend) if you procrastinate one year and can't get into the shop.

Studs are more for ice than for snow or slush, so what will you be facing more of where you are?

If your winter is going to be comparable to a southern Ontario one (a mix of everything, but not the severe -40 temperatures) and you don't want to mess around with changeovers, then I'd recommend just getting a set of Nokian WRs for all-year use.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

If you're getting dedicated winter tires you might as well get winter rims. You have to balance the wheels every time you swap rubber and half the time dudes will scratch your rims. You can actually change your wheels with the tools in your trunk or pay for the 10 minute labor. I find I can do it myself faster than a shop lineup and CC transaction

Studs actually reduce your traction in conditions other than ice by holding the rubber off the road. Slamming on your brakes on dry/wet pavement can be scary because your traction is so much worse than you have learned to expect and because you drive faster in these conditions.

I advise against studs unless you drive on logging roads or country roads. The rubber on winter tires already do an amazing job with all the sipping and deep aggressive jagged treads. Winter tires even do pretty good on ice by not letting any water film stay between the rubber/ice. I switched from summers to winters this week in freezing rain/snow and our work trucks have studs so I got to feel them all. The performance summers were absolute suicide and I managed only by not stopping on hills. The studs are noticeably better when there's no sand/salt but you can still manage fine on winters

I pull a Ski Doo out back roads with a FWD old Honda and prefer not to run studs. I mainly just don't like the noise and don't see the need when they plaster the roads with sand. I don't run studs on my sled either but that's another story


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

mode3sour said:


> Studs actually reduce your traction in conditions other than ice by holding the rubber off the road.


Ditto on that. Friends of mine in Vermont had a bad accident on a clear road in winter wearing studded tires; the braking distance was longer than they had bargained for. Studs are really dangerous in that regard, even winter bicycle tires exhibit the same problem and they advise you to deflate them slightly whenever you're riding on clear pavement or through snow. The thing to remember is that a large portion of your winter driving will be on clear roads. 

If it were me I'd go with something like Michelin X-ice tires, which have softer rubber and grip well in both ice and snow.

The key thing to keep in mind is that all-seasons lose their grip in cold temperatures because the rubber gets too hard. "All season" tires are appropriate in climates where winters are mild...in Canada that would mean southwest B.C. Anywhere else and you're taking risks (not just your life but those of others on the road) if you're not using snow tires.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

Studs are old technology , the new soft rubber siped tires have as good or better all around traction than studded tires.

It's even getting harder to find tire shops that will stud tires for you , and where I live it costs about $40-$50 to have each tire studded , not worth it.

Studs will be illegal everywhere eventually.

Go with good tires , Blizzak , Michelin X , etc.

As for the rims , it will cost less for 4 rims than to have 4 tires studded , Canadian Tire has rims starting at $20.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks for all the comments.

There is a cost to have tires installed/balanced, and the cost is the same regardless if the wheels are on rims or not. Rims are heavy, ugly and cost money. They offer me no value, because as I said initially I do not have the facilities, tools or ability to change the wheels on my own. The car has to go to the shop and the balancing cost is the same whether on rims or not. Let's please not get hung up on this whole rim discussion. I am asking about the tires themselves from a stud perspective.

The reason I am asking about studs is because I am looking around the used local websites for 2nd hand tires. It is hard to find my size and the only set I can find at the moment is for studded winter tires. I would never pay to get them put in but if they come installed on the winter tires at 50% less than the cost of new [unstudded] winter tires, is that not a bargain? I am just wondering if there's any harm in this or if I should just keep looking for regular [unstudded] winter tires.


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## brad (May 22, 2009)

the-royal-mail said:


> There is a cost to have tires installed/balanced, and the cost is the same regardless if the wheels are on rims or not.


Not true. It is a LOT cheaper over the long term to have them on rims already. The first year, you pay for the rims (decent rims can be had for $25-$30 apiece, so you're talking $100 or so total for the rims). Once the wheels are balanced on those rims, further balancing is not necessary every year. It costs me $25 to have my four tires changed over to snows in the autumn and another $25 to have them changed back to all-seasons in the spring.

I can't remember what I paid when I had just one set of rims and had the tires mounted each time, but I know it was a lot more than $25 and I had to have the balancing done each time. So I think you end up ahead after a couple of years if you have separate rims.

I hear you on the storage issue...I had to keep my other wheels at a friend's house until we bought our own place with a basement.


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## Four Pillars (Apr 5, 2009)

Ditto what others have said. Get a set of steel rims for your winter tires.

You mentioned a lack of space - I remember one place I bought tires from offered storage, so all you have to do is show up and get the wheels exchanged twice a year.

My parents signed up for a service where they come to your house to do the wheel switch.

Obviously these options cost money, but it might be worth it in your situation.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

Buying used tires isn't always such a bargain , if they're too old , the rubber becomes harder with age and wears out faster as well as has less traction.

Below is a link to a site that explains tire date stamps , tires shouldn't be used after 6 years old.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/tire_expire.htm

That said , if you want to buy used , one good source is local auto wreckers , they routinely scrap cars that have new or near new tires on them and they sell them cheap.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

furgy said:


> Buying used tires isn't always such a bargain , if they're too old , the rubber becomes harder with age and wears out faster as well as has less traction.


Yea I can attest to that. I went to put my tires on this year and the rubber looked like it was rotting/about to bust any day so i got caught in snow with no winters

I found with the advent of internet I could find tires cheaper online than people wanted for typical used tires on kijiji and I didn't have time to find a deal. They came in 24 hrs by their own delivery service mounted on winter rims for $40 and I put them on the car myself

A fair mechanics should charge about $25 to put wheels on, $50 to mount/balance rubber on steel, $5 for new valves, extra $10 to handle nice rims (if not they'll scratch them around the lip)

So steel rims cost $160+tax and save you about $120+tax/year. If they charge the same regardless if tires are mounted it's either a loss leader or a rip off. Also in my experience half the time mounting tires means having to go back and get a leaky tire remounted and finding scratches on my rims etc

Don't pay for the green caps.. the air is already mostly nitrogen and I'm still confused how the get all the oxygen out of the tire before they fill it up


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

furgy said:


> Studs are old technology , the new soft rubber siped tires have as good or better all around traction than studded tires.



Bullcrap. I have Michelins now. I want my studded BFG's back. They were way better.




furgy said:


> It's even getting harder to find tire shops that will stud tires for you , and where I live it costs about $40-$50 to have each tire studded , not worth it.


??? Where I live it costs $10 a tire.




furgy said:


> Studs will be illegal everywhere eventually.


evidence? How many jurisdictions have banned studs in the last 20 years? Studded tires today are not the same as they were in the 70's.




furgy said:


> Go with good tires , Blizzak , Michelin X , etc.



See above. I wish I had gotten BFG's again. But I heard a lot of people raving about Michelins etc. and though that studless would be just as good. They are not.



http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/pre-2007/files/cars/tires/tiretests.html

"Nordstrom says the tests reveal that "in spite of the ongoing improvement of non-studded tires, still the studded tire is quite superior under [icy and snowy] conditions ..." 
80 per cent of Swedes use studded tires in winter 

That kind of evidence has been persuasive to safety-conscious Swedes. Off the test track, and on the roads, nearly 80 per cent of Swedes use studded tires in winter, and estimates are that has cut road accidents almost in half. 

But what about the downside, excessive road wear? As in Ontario, Sweden briefly harboured a movement to ban studded tires for that very reason. But instead of banning studs the Swedes improved them. Nordstrom reports that new tire studs weigh half as much as the old studs, with the result that road wear is now an insignificant problem. 

"I would say that if you have a ban I would recommend that you no longer ban [studded tires]," Nordstrom says, "but rather regulate them so that you get the proper type of studs so they don't harm the pavement. "


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

Depends where you live and what conditions you drive in. In Southern Ontario where I think they are banned it makes sense to me.. studs would do more harm than good really

You live in Saskatoon? I was in Moose Jaw for a year and while it was quite flat the wind would make it impossible to see where the road was or keep it clear so studs were handy

Swedes I'm sure have the conditions for them. Everyone used studs in Iceland too.. they get more ice condition than snow in the city and main road circling the country isn't entirely paved.

I'm in Quebec now where winter tires are the law and I can't see studs being banned. It's mandatory for trucks to carry chains over some mountain passes so obviously studs won't be banned everywhere


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

> ghostryder said:
> 
> 
> > Bullcrap. I have Michelins now. I want my studded BFG's back. They were way better.
> ...


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

furgy said:


> Bullcrap?
> Says the guy who buys tires he doesn't like.
> Yep jed , gotta get me one o' them good ol' carburetors too , damn that new fangled fuel injection!



Umm, you can't return tires after you have used them. How was I supposed to know that I wouldn't like the Michelins BEFORE I bought them? Or rather that I prefer the BFG's. It's not like you can try out various sets of winter tires to test drive for a few weeks to see which ones you prefer.






furgy said:


> The studs alone cost over 10-15 cents apiece , at 80 to 100 studs per tire , your store would be going broke at $10 , especially considering the time taken to put them in.



Well I don't really care whether they went broke or not. That's what I paid.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

ghostryder said:


> > Umm, you can't return tires after you have used them. How was I supposed to know that I wouldn't like the Michelins BEFORE I bought them? Or rather that I prefer the BFG's. It's not like you can try out various sets of winter tires to test drive for a few weeks to see which ones you prefer.
> 
> 
> Ummmm....actually you can , any tire shops I have dealt with will let you return tires for a full refund on a new set within a week or two if you don't like them.
> ...


But then if a shop is going broke by studding tires for free , I guess they wouldn't be in a position to do that , so you see , it pays to care about the shops you deal with.


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

furgy said:


> Ummmm....actually you can , any tire shops I have dealt with will let you return tires for a full refund on a new set within a week or two if you don't like them.
> Kal tire has always done that for me , only once have I taken them up on it , and they were true to their word.
> 
> But then if a shop is going broke by studding tires for free , I guess they wouldn't be in a position to do that , so you see , it pays to care about the shops you deal with.



That's great. Assuming you get appropriate weather conditions to actually test them. 


LOL Kal Tire was the place that studded my tires for $10 each. And I didn't even buy the tires from them.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

ghostryder said:


> LOL Kal Tire was the place that studded my tires for $10 each. And I didn't even buy the tires from them.


LOL Bullcrap.


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## sprocket1200 (Aug 21, 2009)

ghost, Michelin owns BFGoodrich and makes their tires. it may have been the studs.

I love Kaltire for both the reasons you guys have mentioned, but mostly for their service and advice.

the older rubber does harden, but my experience has been that they last longer when harder but have worse road holding capabilities.

craigslist.com is a great place for tire/rims. lots of deals there.


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## ghostryder (Apr 5, 2009)

sprocket1200 said:


> ghost, Michelin owns BFGoodrich and makes their tires. it may have been the studs.



If you put the X-ice's next to the BFG winter slaloms there is a substantial difference in the tread. The BFG's are more "open" and "chunky", which seems to suit the conditions I face the most. On ice, the studs rule. In packed & looser snow the Mich's feel like they "clog up". The more open tread on the BFG's seems to clear quicker & better.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Well, I have the studded tires now. In the final analysis, given I have 18" wheels there was no immediate price savings to buying rims. I did the math, made the phone calls, shopped around, used websites, junk yards etc etc.

The studs are great, so are the tires they are on. No further problems with winter driving and I can now keep up with the traffic and not worry about getting stuck in my driveway.

Thanks for the comments everyone.


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## furgy (Apr 20, 2009)

Royal.....

I don't approve of studded tires.

Or do you just have a thing for "studs"?


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

LOL! Good one! heheh

Nope, I prefer the straight and narrow. 

I must admit I was opposed to the idea of studs in the past but seeing how well these tires perform and how crappy of a job they do clearing my driveway and the streets studs or at least winter tires are pretty much a must here. I'll be taking them off in March though, as soon as the heavy snow and ice are behind us for the season.


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## m3s (Apr 3, 2010)

18" rims on Cdn winter roads.. Is it a Hummer?


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## loggedout (Dec 30, 2009)

No idea...

Just chiming in because I'll be getting winter tires installed on monday for the first time. I have questions about whether it's worth the investment since I've driven in Southern Ontario for 15-odd years without them....so this is a test to see.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

I've done a lot of driving in southern Ont both with and without winter tires. Winter tires are a MAJOR improvement. You get a lot of freezing rain in the winter or warm days where things melt and then the following morning you step out your door and fall, due to the sheets of ice everywhere, frozen from the previous day's melt. You will notice a huge difference in stopping distance at 4-way stops and traffic lights in the city and the tires will also help when you get snowfall and before the roads are properly cleared.

Just make sure you've accounted for tire storage.


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## atrp2biz (Sep 22, 2010)

This is actually the first year I've purchased winter tires. I went with the Hankook W409s. I thought it was a good price ($800 taxes and installation all in with rims for 215 60R16).

I finally decided to go with the winter tires this year since everyone seems to be calling for a bad winter. Besides, I'll be moving to Calgary in the New Year (from Richmond Hill), so I'll probably need them.

To date, I'm fairly happy with these tires, although I've only really driven them in dry conditions. Maybe this weekend I'll be able to test them out.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

So does anyone have any updated stories on winter tires? Perhaps atrp and some of the others in this thread who also got winter tires want to chim in with some comments?

For my part, I just traded in the car that I bought those tires for, so now I have a set for sale. One of them is pretty well used now so I'll just sell these tires next November at a cheap price to get them off my balcony. The place I was going to to change my tires every 6 months told me at the last change that they would start charging me $65 (or $130 per year) to store the tires. That made the whole thing quite economically disadvantageous. Tire storage is always an issue.


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## qc_riderfan87 (Apr 30, 2011)

High Performance All seasons, saves time and money and they don't wear out as fast.


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## Mall Guy (Sep 14, 2011)

Over the last 15 yrs, I have had cheaper quality studded tires on a minivan (almost a waste of money), highway quality snow tires on an all-wheel drive sport-ute (fabulous in all conditions), but have not put snows on my current all-wheel drive sedan in the last two years (running new high performance Pirellie tires), not nearly as good (stopping/hills) as the Subaru Wagon (again with all-wheel drive) with snow tires. Depends on where you live and where you drive. I would not run studded tires if it was mostly highway driving (loud!). Snow tires are mandatory in Quebec, and a way of life in Atlantic Canada.


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## Maybe Later (Feb 19, 2011)

I love my winter tires and have had several sets. In my experience studded tires outperform, particularly in braking performance and especially as they wear, but you do pay the price of highway noise (we have 40 km daily and 1000 km round trips twice a winter). We are getting a new vehicle shortly and I'll be looking for good deals on tires for next season now, since they're out of season. Well, almost, it snowed here last night . My next set will be Nokian Hakkas that come pre studded from the factory. They have a 'cushion' of soft rubber under the stud that allows them to move a little when driving on pavement and wear better. They're supposed to help with road noise also.

Some retailers here recognize the storage issue and will store your tires year-round free if you purchase new winter tires. We have a garage with a tower of tires year round, but I will be looking into a tire rack (Lee Valley has a nice one, but I may get one welded up by a family member) as the kids get older and I worry more about them trying to climb it.

I completely disagree with anyone who says all-season perform just as well. The science just doesn't hold up. I haven't seen data on the new all-weather designation. I'd prefer to spend $1000 on tires and avoid the hassle and expense of one road mishap.


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## the-royal-mail (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks for the additional comments. I agree with all except the notion that all season tires are appropriate for our winters. That is simply not true. Summer tires have a harder compound while snow tires have a much softer compound that doesn't freeze solid in the cold weather. It does of course depend on where you drive but for most of us there is no question that snow tires are a pretty good idea for winter driving. Studs may be a bit overkill and they aren't going away anytime soon. Even if you save yourself from one accident, IMO it's worth the hassle and expense of tire changeovers 2x per year.


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## Mall Guy (Sep 14, 2011)

the-royal-mail said:


> IMO it's worth the hassle and expense of tire changeovers 2x per year.


Yup, we live in Canada . . . two season, winter and construction ! ! !


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